The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors

Patrick Larkin, Partner & Practice Leader, Cerity Partners Three years after launching his independent RIA, Patrick Larkin merged with Cerity Partners—but not because that was the original plan. He explains how ownership changed the way he viewed enterprise value, optionality, and the future of his business. In Summary Going independent is often viewed as the destination. Patrick Larkin discovered it was just the beginning. Louis sits down with Patrick, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners and former founder of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, to discuss an unconventional journey: leaving Wells Fargo to build an independent RIA, then choosing to merge that business just three years later. Rather than following a predetermined exit strategy, Patrick shares how ownership fundamentally changed the way he thought about enterprise value. A conversation with a prospective acquirer revealed that buyers weren’t interested in purchasing a book of business—they were looking for a business. That realization reshaped how he invested, hired, delegated, and ultimately positioned his firm for the future. The conversation from our Build Grow & Transact series also offers a candid look at life after a merger, from evaluating cultural fit and partnership to balancing autonomy with the resources of a larger organization. More broadly, it illustrates how ownership creates optionality—and why the most valuable decision an advisor makes may not be the one they originally envisioned. The Storyline After spending nearly 15 years building a successful practice at AG Edwards, Wachovia, and Wells Fargo, Patrick Larkin launched Oak Hill Wealth Advisors in 2022 with a simple objective: build a business on his own terms. Like many advisors, he expected independence to be the final destination for a long time. But then there was the realization that ownership changes more than economics; it changes perspective. And it became the beginning of an entirely different way of thinking. As acquisition inquiries arrived sooner than expected, Patrick realized something that fundamentally changed his strategy. Sophisticated buyers weren’t evaluating his client relationships as a book of business; they were evaluating Oak Hill as an enterprise. That insight shifted his priorities from maximizing short-term profitability to building a business that could thrive beyond its founder. Just three years after launching, Patrick chose to merge with Cerity Partners—not because he was looking for an exit, but because he believed it strengthened the future for his clients, his team, and his family. Louis and Patrick explore what led to that decision, how ownership increased the value of his business almost immediately, why he compares independence to an IPO, and what advisors should consider if they hope to create options for the future—even if they don’t yet know what that future looks like. Topics Covered Building enterprise value versus maximizing annual income Creating optionality through ownership Leaving Wells Fargo to launch an independent RIA Why buyers value businesses more than books of business Evaluating strategic partners and acquisition opportunities The economics of independence and business valuation Life after merging with Cerity Partners Balancing autonomy with enterprise-scale resources Leadership, succession, and building beyond the founder Long-term ownership and partnership models > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why did Patrick decide to leave Wells Fargo? (11:07) Patrick explains why growing frustrations around control, firm priorities, and the ability to build his business eventually outweighed the comfort of staying put. How did going independent immediately change the value of his business? (21:42) Patrick introduces one of the episode’s biggest ideas: why launching Oak Hill felt like taking a company public and how ownership increased the firm’s value almost overnight. Why did Patrick sell only three years after becoming independent? (20:03) An unexpected conversation with a prospective acquirer completely changed how he viewed enterprise value and accelerated his long-term thinking. What separates a business from a book of business? (21:42) Patrick discusses why recruiting advisors, delegating client relationships, and investing beyond himself made Oak Hill more attractive to strategic buyers. Why Cerity Partners? (26:48) Rather than focusing on valuation, Cerity emphasized culture, partnership, and long-term alignment—qualities Patrick says ultimately mattered most. What is life actually like after a merger? (37:57) Patrick offers an unusually candid perspective on autonomy, leadership, and why he says he hasn’t second-guessed the decision once. Key Takeaways Ownership creates opportunities that often aren’t visible until after independence. Enterprise value is built by creating a business that can thrive beyond its founder. The first acquisition conversation can be valuable even if no transaction occurs. Cultural alignment may ultimately matter more than valuation when selecting a long-term partner. Independence doesn’t eliminate future options—it expands them. Strategic transactions can strengthen outcomes for clients, employees, and owners simultaneously. The goal isn’t simply to own a business; it’s to create choices for what comes next. https://youtu.be/f7FGLGjBbyo Quotable Moments “The day Oak Hill launched felt like the business had gone public.” “Potential acquirers weren’t interested in buying a book. They were interested in buying a business.” “Ownership isn’t simply about control. It’s about creating optionality.” “The fear of leaving is almost always worse than the actual experience of leaving.” FAQs Why did Patrick Larkin merge with Cerity Partners only three years after launching his RIA? Patrick explains that independence changed how he viewed enterprise value. After learning what sophisticated buyers were actually looking for, he intentionally built Oak Hill as a business rather than simply managing for annual profitability. Why does Patrick compare independence to an IPO? Because ownership immediately transformed the economic value of his practice. Rather than participating in an internal succession model, he owned an independent enterprise that carried substantially greater market value. What changed after Patrick became independent? Beyond gaining control, he began making decisions through the lens of enterprise value—investing in advisors, systems, and infrastructure that would make the business less dependent on him personally. What made Cerity Partners stand out? Patrick cites the firm’s culture, partnership model, meritocracy, long-term vision, and ability to combine local autonomy with enterprise-level capabilities. Is this episode only relevant for advisors considering selling? No. The broader lesson is that ownership creates flexibility. Whether an advisor ultimately remains independent or joins another organization, understanding how enterprise value is created can influence decisions from day one. What is the biggest lesson Patrick hopes advisors take away? That independence isn’t simply about leaving a firm. It’s about creating the ability to choose what comes next on your own terms. Patrick explains that independence changed how he viewed enterprise value. After learning what sophisticated buyers were actually looking for, he intentionally built Oak Hill as a business rather than simply managing for annual profitability. Because ownership immediately transformed the economic value of his practice. Rather than participating in an internal succession model, he owned an independent enterprise that carried substantially greater market value. Beyond gaining control, he began making decisions through the lens of enterprise value—investing in advisors, systems, and infrastructure that would make the business less dependent on him personally. Patrick cites the firm’s culture, partnership model, meritocracy, long-term vision, and ability to combine local autonomy with enterprise-level capabilities. No. The broader lesson is that ownership creates flexibility. Whether an advisor ultimately remains independent or joins another organization, understanding how enterprise value is created can influence decisions from day one. That independence isn’t simply about leaving a firm. It’s about creating the ability to choose what comes next on your own terms. Related Resources From Start-Up to $31B Behemoth RIA: The Catalysts Behind the Growth of Mega-Firm Cerity Partners Ownership Matters: What Advisors Need to Know When Evaluating Firms Top Tips for Setting Your Business Up for Success Years Before a Move Patrick LarkinPartner and Practice Leader Patrick is a Partner and Practice Leader in the Lansdowne, VA office. He is a member of the Lansdowne Practice, where he works closely with families, foundations, and non-profits to help them define and achieve their financial goals with clarity and confidence. With a deep specialization in retirement income distribution planning and complex risk and wealth management strategies, Patrick is known for helping clients simplify complicated financial decisions, reduce uncertainty, and build sustainable, long-term plans. His approach emphasizes fiduciary responsibility, transparency, and personalized guidance — ensuring clients always feel informed and empowered. Prior to joining Cerity Partners, Patrick was the founding member of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, where he built a highly respected independent advisory practice that earned the trust of families, professionals, and mission-driven organizations across the region. His leadership was instrumental in shaping a client-first culture that continues today. Patrick’s work is rooted in a passion for long-term relationships — guiding clients not just through markets, but through life’s milestones such as retirement, business transitions, philanthropic planning, and wealth transfer across generations. He takes pride in being both a strategic advisor and a steady partner to the people he serves. Patrick lives in Bluemont, VA, with his wife Angela, their two children, Paige and Sean, and their Golden Retrievers, Huckleberry and Genoa. Outside of the office, Patrick and his family enjoy an active lifestyle — whether it’s hiking and backpacking on the Appalachian Trail, biking the Great Allegheny Passage, or sailing on the Chesapeake Bay. These experiences reflect his belief in balance, resilience, and enjoying the journey — values he also brings to his work with clients. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years A conversation with Louis Diamond and Patrick Larkin, Partner & Practice Leader at Cerity Partners.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years. It’s a conversation with Patrick Larkin, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Ownership as a way of creating opportunities you can’t always predict. That’s exactly why we created our Build, Grow, and Transact series. Independence isn’t the end of the story. It’s often the beginning of thinking differently about enterprise value, optionality, and what comes next. Today’s guest is Patrick Larkin, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners, and formerly the founder of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. Patrick spent nearly 15 years building a successful practice at A.G. Edwards, Wachovia, and eventually Wells Fargo before launching his own independent firm in 2022. Just three years later, he merged that firm into Cerity. At first glance, that timeline might seem surprisingly short, but as you’ll hear, the merger wasn’t a change in direction. It was the result of seeing his business differently once he owned it. Yet, it’s this perspective that really brings that thought home. Patrick said the day Oak Hill launched felt like the business had gone public because overnight, what had been viewed as a book of business became an enterprise with substantially greater value, some four to five times the value of what it was worth at Wells. And that realization changed the way he invested, the way he hired, and ultimately the way he thought about the future. Pat and I also talk about something advisors don’t often discuss candidly, what life actually looks like after a merger. How much control do you give up? What changes day to day? How do you know whether you’re joining a partner or simply selling a business? Whether your long-term plan is to remain independent forever or eventually join a larger organization, Patrick’s experience is a reminder that ownership isn’t simply about control. It’s about creating optionality and putting yourself in a position where the next decision is yours to make. So let’s get to it. Patrick, thanks for coming on our show today. Patrick Larkin: Oh, my pleasure. Nice to meet you, Louis. Louis Diamond: You too. So let’s start off basically how we start every interview. Tell us about yourself, your background, and how you found your way into our industry in the first place. Patrick Larkin: Yeah, thank you for asking. I knew I always wanted to be a financial advisor. That part really wasn’t in question, but upon graduating college and being a 22-year-old, I knew that it was probably not practical to walk in and start advising people my parents’ age with their life savings. Probably wasn’t going to be a recipe for success. So I took a quick tour through the pharmaceutical industry first, which ended up being unexpectedly valuable. My employers there pushed me to think like an entrepreneur and within our territories. And honestly, that mindset never left me. It shaped how I built everything that came after. Eventually, an opportunity presented itself in Loudoun County, Virginia in Northern Virginia, and I became an FA trainee with A.G. Edwards, absolutely fantastic firm to start my career. Now, what drew me to this career was pretty simple. I felt like it was one of the professions that we had an opportunity to do so much good for others while simultaneously also doing well for yourself, and those two things aren’t in conflict. I also really loved the idea that in this profession there was no hiding. You don’t get paid to show up. You get paid for what you actually do. And perhaps for me, what was most important, I loved the weight of responsibility. I loved earning people’s trust. I loved the idea of deserving, being deserving of their trust, and being a steward of what they’ve worked a lifetime to build. I never took that lightly, and I still don’t. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. Yeah, I mean, the number of people I’ve heard, you talked so fondly about A.G. Edwards and there’s a bunch of other firms that have since been absorbed or emerged that are like the regional firms of old. So not surprised to hear you loved it. A.G. Edwards, obviously, became Wells Fargo Advisors or was acquired or merged with Wells Fargo. So I know you’re at Wells and A.G. Edwards until 2022. So give us a quick version. How’d you build your practice from the pharma world into being in FA? Patrick Larkin: Yeah, so as I started with A.G. Edwards, I came in at really just the perfect time. It was towards the end of the financial crisis. And I built the business the old-fashioned way with a lot of cold calling and eventually did some dinner seminars, which I can tell you is a very expensive way to learn how to speak in front of a room. But I made some progress, and I was also in a great office, small enough that some of the advisors there would hand off some of the smaller accounts that they weren’t interested in working with, and got an opportunity to get a lot of reps in working with real life clients and individuals. I knew early on I didn’t have enough talent to win on talent alone, so I made up for it and compensated for that with really hard work. The real turning point came for me when A.G. Edwards was first acquired by Wachovia Securities, and that was about five years into my career. And at that point, my branch manager, who was eyeing retirement, asked me to step in as her partner, and that changed everything. We eventually moved over to a Wachovia Securities office, another really great local office in Loudoun County, Virginia. And from that office, I worked on and became a CIMA, a CFP, worked with the clients, built a business through referrals. And I found at that point in my career when I would go to a meeting with Wachovia, eventually Wells Fargo, as a young 30-year-old, I would look around the room often and realize that I was the youngest person in the room. The funny thing was 10 years later, I would go into that same room and I’d look around and I still was the youngest guy in that room. And those demographics in our industry, and when I came into our industry, ultimately led that office that I worked in with Wells Fargo Advisors, I eventually was the recipient and party to five different succession plans- Louis Diamond: Wow. Patrick Larkin: … at Wells Fargo Advisors. I hoped that I had built a reputation as somebody that these other advisors would entrust with their clients. And over that time period, really, I would say professionally, one of my accomplishments I’m most proud of is all five of those retired advisors that I used to work with, who had an opportunity to see me work with clients, all became clients of mine, I still continue to work with. And it’s professionally just one of the greatest honors that I’ve ever had. Louis Diamond: I mean, that’s a large number of advisors you helped sunset, but I would agree it’s the ultimate proof of concept that they not only trusted you with their clients and their life’s work, but now also with their family’s wealth. So I like that, kind of the full life cycle there. So I’m curious, though, you stayed at Wells through a really turbulent time through the fake bank scandal. There’s a lot of attrition. I mean, obviously, they’re still a powerhouse to this day, but what kept you at Wells for as long as it did before you left in 2022? Patrick Larkin: You described it as a turbulent time. Pretty turbulent might be an understatement. Even before Wells, the transition to Wells, Wachovia Bank had been the first company that we transitioned to from A.G. Edwards. And we, of course, went through the financial crisis during that time period and handholding our clients and helping them get through that time period and dealing with concerns that we shouldn’t really have to be prepared with. “Is my money safe? It’s not what’s happening to the market, but is my money safe in your institution?” But once things stabilized, I found real purpose in partnering with some of the retiring advisors and opportunities that came up. It was a really wonderful climate and atmosphere in our local office. It was really a family-like atmosphere, and I still had a lot to learn. And all those advisors that I partnered with, I’ve joked I’ve never had an original idea in my entire life. I stole all my good ideas from them. And some of them were really ahead of their time, and I learned, adopted, and built my own philosophies by working closely with them. Ultimately, by the time I left Wells Fargo, I was finishing up the fifth sunset program and had only made my way halfway through the sunset before the opportunity presented itself to create my own practice. Louis Diamond: So I’m curious, when did you first seriously start thinking about leaving and what really tipped the scales for you? What was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back? Patrick Larkin: Yeah, it really was a number of small items and ultimately one big one. But for a long time, I’d been content, but as I tried to grow the business beyond what I could do individually, I felt like I kept running into walls. There were it felt like limitations on how I could build out my team and structure the practice the way I envisioned it. Additionally, there were some new policies that also started to bother me. One of them was the platform advisory fee, which in my eyes was less about client transparency and more about replacing a declining revenue source on the firm’s balance sheet. And after dealing with clients and helping them through the bank scandal at the firm, I was concerned that this would come back and hurt me and the relationships that I had with my clients. Incidentally, I just recently onboarded a new client that transferred to us. And for them, looking at their statement, identifying this platform advisory fee- Louis Diamond: Oh boy. Patrick Larkin: … was the last straw for them before they moved about 15 million of assets to us. Also, I thought I would be I would be a better allocator of resources than Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo retained about half of the revenue that I earned for the business. They seemed to think that the best allocation of that money was additional middle management. Whereas, I thought investment in technology, investment in additional personnel, and an investment in marketing were best places to continue to build out my vision. The final straw, and really a thing that crystallized everything for me was when I read a book in 2021 called The Infinite Game, a book written by Simon Sinek. Chapter eight, the title is Ethical Fading. And it uses the Wells Fargo bank scandal as a case study in what happens when a firm loses its moral compass. I read the chapter and thought, “There it is, I have to do something.” That was really the final push I needed. I mentioned earlier I was very fortunate to start my career with a company called A.G. Edwards, a regional brokerage firm. And while I was at A.G. Edwards, there was a research report that came out on A.G. Edwards as a company. And I’m going to paraphrase a little bit on what was said in that report, but ultimately there was a line in there, and it was a criticism, but I took it as a huge positive as being an employee there. The line said, “While management does not necessarily say it, we believe the client is put ahead of the shareholder.” And that was something I was very proud of. And I just, upon reflecting on it, felt confident those were words that I never was going to see go to print about Wells Fargo. Louis Diamond: So you left Wells in 2022 and founded Oak Hill Wealth Partners in Lansdowne, Virginia. Walk us through that decision. Why go independent rather than going to another firm? Patrick Larkin: I really thought moving to another firm, the things that I had grown frustrated with at Wells Fargo Advisors, I would also find at another wirehouse firm. I was ready, and honestly, the simple answer is I thought I could do better. And I wanted control after having what I felt like was very little control. I had grown frustrated with others making important decisions, and I wanted an opportunity to grab the reins and make decisions on my own. I believe at that time, the future of wealth management was going to be built around fiduciary advice, and I didn’t want to watch that from the sidelines anymore. I was watching what was happening in the industry. And as we were trying to hire new advisors, reaching out to college graduates who were studying CFP programs, identified that they were more inclined to want to start employment with an RIA than a wirehouse. What made the timing work really well was Wells Fargo had actually introduced a program to help advisors in the private client group spin off and establish their own RIAs. Now, whenever I tell this to another advisor, particularly ones that are wirehouses, they can’t understand it. And quite frankly, I don’t understand why they helped us do it, but we were about the 30th practice that they helped us through this process and they provided real support. They hired consultants, made vendor recommendations, even referrals to financing so I could pay off my last succession plan before I left. The only really upside for Wells Fargo was that the ask was that we continue to use First Clearing as the custodian. And one of the downsides for me was I was going to leave all of my deferred comp behind with Wells Fargo. Now, all clients had to do to join me was sign a positive consent. And on May 9th, 2020, we turned on our computers in our new office and our clients were already there. That same day, we launched and started a relationship with Charles Schwab. And it was so exciting to be able to start shopping for what I thought was the best FinTech, really feeling like I was stuck with proprietary tools that Wells Fargo advisors had offered. I felt like I was a kid in a candy store. And if there was a cool tool that I identified that would help us serve our clients better, I was all in and I was buying it. I really feel that some of the technology that Oak Hill eventually bought into and some of the tools we’re using now are going to take years and years before they eventually trickle down to where the wirehouses are, if ever. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So it was really it was for the most part an internal move from one- Patrick Larkin: It was- Louis Diamond: … channel to the other. Patrick Larkin: … it was an internal move, but there was no requirement to stay at First Clearing. As a fiduciary, they couldn’t make those demands. And again, they helped us with the financing, which is really unusual that they helped us secure a loan so I could pay off the last retiring advisor. It’s really unusual that a bank will loan money where there is no business at the time, but because of previous experience that financial institution had working with Wells, they helped us facilitate the transaction. And the program is still in place at Wells Fargo, which is absolutely amazing to me after the experience that I’ve just had myself. Louis Diamond: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, does it cannibalize a more profitable revenue source? Sure. But if the alternative was all the assets go to Schwab or Fidelity, to me, honestly, it’s smart. I think they played the long game by not being adversarial on it. Patrick Larkin: I think they played a long game and they took the philosophy, and I think they use it as a recruiting tool that if you love them, set them free. And that’s exactly what they did. Louis Diamond: So for the rest of the episode, I want to talk about your eventual, and not that long period of time, transaction or decision to merge Oak Hill with Cerity Partners. This is our Build, Grow, Transact subseries. And I was really struck by your story because you were three years or so into running Oak Hill, and then your merger with Cerity Partners, an amazing RIA closed. That’s a fairly short runway. Usually when I see folks go independent for the first time, it’s 10, 15, 20 years, maybe never, that they decide to merge or sell. I’m curious to understand your thinking about the transaction. Were you looking to do something? Or was it just like right place, right time and the opportunity presented itself? Patrick Larkin: I had started Oak Hill with the intent of eventually down the road, much closer to retirement, looking for a partner. The opportunity and what I learned early on helped change that idea and philosophy, and I adapted and made modifications to take advantage of it. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So you weren’t necessarily planning on selling or merging the business, it just kind of circumstances happened the way they did? Patrick Larkin: Yeah. When we started Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, it was a really pretty short period of time before we started getting calls from larger national RIAs about potential acquisition, much sooner than I expected. Early on, I just brushed them off, but about a year in, I took one of those calls and it really just opened my eyes up. I realized for the first time this small firm, this little practice actually had some real value, way more than I’d given it credit for. That first call, that first exploration didn’t go anywhere. It wasn’t a good fit. But what it gave me was a much clearer picture of what the serious acquirers were actually looking for. And that changed decisions I made at Oak Hill going forward. I really at that point stopped trying to optimize for near-term profit and really thought of my business as a business and started building towards enterprise value, sometimes at the cost of short-term income. And that turned out to be exactly the right call. Louis Diamond: That’s such an interesting perspective. Let’s double-click into that concept. So it sounds almost counterintuitive that if you kind of had this light bulb moment that like, “Okay, maybe I want to transact my business sooner than I initially thought.” I think most people would say, “Let’s become lean and mean. Let’s become as profitable as possible so my EBITDA’s higher.” But you took the different approach. What were the decisions you did to invest more in enterprise value rather than current cash flow? Patrick Larkin: A true business is one that doesn’t need me to be here every day to operate. And when we left Wells Fargo Advisors, it was myself and one other advisor that created Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. I was responsible for about 95% of the assets and revenue. And one of the more significant investments we made is in additional advisors. I recruited three new advisors, all CFPs, to join Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. Whereas, before I had been largely managing all the relationships myself. For someone that kind of grew up in the regional wirehouse space, it’s pretty counterintuitive to start moving relationships away from you onto other advisors. You’re trained and built to create a moat around your relationships, and realized that the potential acquirers are not interested, at least the ones I was interested in, weren’t interested in buying a book. They were interested in buying a business. And that just meant every decision we made going forward was not profit-driven, but how can I increase the value of the business? So after that first call, I knew I probably would be looking to move forward with a transaction sooner as opposed to the end of retirement. That information that I got on that first call helped me realize that when Oak Hill Wealth Advisors opened its doors on May 9th, 2022, we effectively had an IPO. I had great familiarity with how the succession plans at Wells Fargo Advisors worked. And on that day that we opened our practice, the value of my business jumped to be four to five times the value of it in a succession plan at Wells Fargo Advisors. Now, I knew going forward that I was going to be able to increase revenue. I was going to be able to increase EBITDA. I was going to potentially have some benefits from a market tailwind. I knew the multiples of EBITDA that the firms use may fluctuate, but the biggest change by far occurred leaving the wirehouse and having the value of my business grow four to fivefold in that same day. So what I really focused on was making sure that I was going to, when I was ready to start looking again after I had worked on improving the practice, really was going to look for a firm that was going to be a good cultural fit for both my clients, my team, and myself. Louis Diamond: That’s such a cool perspective. I’ve never heard anyone say that the day we launched your independent business was like an IPO. But honestly, it’s so true. You’re planting a flag in the ground that like, “Here is real value. This is value that we’ve created that we own rather than it being a book of business and a W-2 paycheck.” And it’s a fascinating perspective. Patrick Larkin: Yep. It really is amazing that the value changed that much on one day and the future value changes. Looking at the equity that I owned in Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, it made sense to consider is there a better way to take some risk off the table for myself and my family and diversify some of the equity that I had in Oak Hill Wealth Advisors with a larger enterprise? Louis Diamond: It makes complete sense. Obviously, everyone would sign up for 4 to 5X increase in value. Patrick Larkin: Sure. Louis Diamond: That’s not the reason most people go independent, but it’s important to know. And also, what I really liked about what you shared is I think a really valuable learning for anyone is those calls come in, whether it’s from annoying people like me or from an acquirer, from a firm, they’re not all noise. You took it as an opportunity to learn. Even though that first person who called wasn’t the right fit, it crystallized something in your mind and it let you make proactive decisions that ultimately paid off in spades when it came time to sign the dotted line for your transaction with Cerity. So I think it’s brilliant. And it’s very big picture, big-business-owner-type stuff that I think a lot of people will just filter out because it’s annoying and I’m young, I’m not looking to sell, but that was the journey. Patrick Larkin: Yeah, that first call changed my opinion about timing of when to move forward with a partnership. Originally, I thought this would be something at the end of retirement. The timing of doing so sooner seemed a lot more appealing after having that conversation and realizing what we had actually built. Louis Diamond: Amazing. So ultimately you decided to merge with Cerity Partners. We’ve had Kurt Miscinski from Cerity Partners on the show. They’re a real heavyweight within the RIA world. Most recently, they were valued at $8 billion in a recap, and it’s a very impressive firm. What specifically drew you to Cerity versus other potential buyers? Like you said, you got a lot of calls. Patrick Larkin: After that first call, I just got to work and focused on continuing to take care of our clients, building a team, adding new advisors, being a mentor to those advisors. But at the same time, we were being approached fairly regularly by that point. And I had a pretty good system for quickly deciding whether something was worth a second look, and most weren’t. But about a year ago, one of the national RIAs caught my attention and I started having conversations with them. And once I had progressed with them, I though, “You know what? If I’m giving this consideration, I really need to cast a wider net.” So I reached out to other RIAs that I had looked at and admired and been keeping an eye on. And ultimately, my longtime business coach, Barbara Kay, suggested I talk with Cerity Partners, a company that one of her other clients had just recently joined. And from the very first call, I could tell something was different. And I talked to many different companies. Cerity Partners, and an individual I spoke with, Geoff Newman, they weren’t leading with valuation formulas or deal structure. They were asking questions about my clients, my team, and how I actually ran the practice. They had a very defined process for identifying partners who were genuinely compatible, not just advisors with books that were transferable. And that distinction mattered greatly to me. They also offered really, in my opinion, the right balance of support and still having some autonomy. And their aspiration to deliver consistent standard of care to clients, whether they be in California or Virginia, so that those individuals get the same quality of experience, resonated with how I was already running things within my practice. That combination of support and autonomy, I really liked the idea of continuing to have oversight over my local practice, over our practice, which included the budget, salaries, and bonuses. It more than anybody else felt like a partnership and not a buyout. And I really appreciate it during that first call, Cerity was the only company that talked about a hundred-year plan. It was amazing to me to hear what their thoughts were. Most of the other firms I spoke with talked about valuations. And very quickly in the process, I found myself on a Zoom call with a Patagonia fleece vest-wearing private equity rep walking me through a valuation. And it was efficient, but it was not a cultural fit for me. And the infrastructure behind us and the combination of autonomy is really harder to find than most people think. As I progressed with Cerity, I remember early on in the process thinking to myself, “My God, I hope they want me, I hope they want me,” because I could tell I’m a very process-driven person They had a process with the way they brought me on board. And ultimately, we had a due diligence trip set up to go to one of their larger offices where I met with one of their leaders, Claire O’Keefe, part of their practice development, and had an opportunity to meet with different leaders within the firm and really get my arms wrapped around the potential that they had. Just the quality of the people I encountered through the whole process just kept reinforcing the decision. And by the time we got to the finish line, it didn’t feel like a transaction. It felt like I was joining something that I was excited to be part of. So just a little bit more about what attracted me to Cerity, their culture is just phenomenal. Cerity Partners uses the word “meritocracy” and they actually mean it. Ownership and influence here track your contribution, not your tenure or how well you play the politics. I just attended my first partner meeting in April, and without exaggeration, it was the most extraordinary professional meeting I’ve attended in my 25-year career. During the meeting, there was open debate about the direction of the firm, and every voice in the room carried weight. You could feel the culture. And that type of culture is built over years. You can’t fake it. Everyone in the room it felt like was rowing in the same direction. And by the time the meeting was over, I was so excited to get back to my team and tell them about what I had just witnessed, I wasn’t looking for the exit. I was looking for the brick wall to run through. I was so excited. And every once in a while I wonder having spent so much time in the wirehouse spaces, the bar just set really low for me when I talked to some of my other colleagues that have been independent for a long time. But it was just an absolutely amazing experience. And I do want to just add, one of the last really important things to me about Cerity Partners is I’ve been very fortunate with my career and in this profession. And part of my goal over the rest of my career is to have a legacy. And my legacy currently exists with the families I’ve advised and the team that I’ve built and have served and led. But Cerity Partners is helping me achieve even a greater legacy in our industry with our shared long-term goals. During my first meeting, they talked about their hundred-year vision of being a worldwide employee-owned professional services firm. And currently, and this is very exciting, the employees are the largest shareholder of the firm. No one else I talked to talked about their long-term goals like this, and it’s a vision I believe in. I want to contribute to help to see it accomplished. And one day when I do retire, I want to look back and see how I contribute it to a company that I believe is going to change the direction of professional wealth management. Louis Diamond: Wow. Patrick Larkin: My partnership with Cerity Partners is going to make that a reality. It’s just an amazing place. Yeah, very happy. Louis Diamond: Honestly, you can’t fake that type of enthusiasm. It sounds like- Patrick Larkin: It’s not- Louis Diamond: … you entered into a transaction, which is it’s like jumping into the deep end. How do you sort through what’s the sales process versus what’s real? How much of this is actually going to translate to my life? But hearing you not that long after the transaction, you still feel that and it’s very cool. In the press release I read, you cited estate planning, private markets access, and cross-border planning as key reasons for the merger. Can you talk about what it was about those? Maybe- Patrick Larkin: Yeah. Louis Diamond: … anything else that was missed? Patrick Larkin: Yeah. Louis Diamond: And were those not things that you felt like you could have delivered yourself as a standalone? Patrick Larkin: I thought that they were going to help me be able to be more effective in delivering those, but they weren’t the complete picture. The capabilities that we cited in the release were genuine gaps I wanted to fill and have available for clients and be able to prospect and go after new additional clients. But being fully honest, there were also deeper drivers. One was my team. Sometimes we get emotional about this. Being someone who’s trusted is really important to me, and that’s something I hold in high priority. There are people that followed me out of Wells Fargo to join me. One of my client associates had delayed her retirement so that she could join me and help us launch for the first three months. One of my other client associates has been with me close to 15 years. These are people that trusted me to do the right thing and to make sure that I wasn’t walking them off the plank. Being able to join Cerity Partners and give them a future that didn’t hinge entirely on my personal longevity was a huge relief. And Cerity Partners is an ownership culture. I’m so happy to say today that every single individual on my team in our practice in Lansdowne is now either an equity owner in Cerity Partners or very shortly will be an equity- Louis Diamond: So cool. Patrick Larkin: … equity owner. So they have a stake as well in what they’re building. It matters. My youngest client associate noticed how much it costs to send to FedEx. And he goes, “Now that I’m an owner, maybe we should rethink about sending regular mail.” Another driver was my family. And I’ve always had the philosophy of trying to prioritize and clients first, team and colleagues, and then my family. And I’ve always made decisions that if I put those others before myself, eventually I’ll be taken care of. And going through this transaction, it was so generous to my family and provided such security. There was a little bit of guilt that, “Am I doing this for all the right reasons?” But being able to secure my family’s future, converting equity in a three-year-old RIA into a stake of a $8 billion-plus valuation with institutional backing, that was a meaningful moment and I’d be less than honest if I glossed over that. I also really wanted to be part of something larger than myself. And the opportunity to help build a legacy in this business with Cerity Partners really gives me the platform to do that. Louis Diamond: Very cool. I can tell that you’re genuine, not just because of the way you sound, the way you’re speaking, but in the very beginning of the episode, you talked about the reason you got into this business was because you thought it gave you the dual purpose of being able to help people, but also being able to enrich yourself or your family. So this answer, it comes full circle. You’re able to accomplish all these goals, which made it the right decision. And I think, look, I say to advisors all the time, “You’re allowed to be greedy, you’re allowed to be selfish as long as the clients are still in the front of your mind as the most important thing.” There’s nothing wrong with doing better for clients, building a legacy in your case, but also reaping the rewards of all your hard work and labor and also all the risks that you’ve taken over your career. I got to ask you, though, from being an employee of Wells, where you were running your team, for the most part, you can run the business within their guardrails the way you want, to then running an RIA, which is really like you’re fully in control of everything, to now being a partner, but you’re not the one who has the name on the door anymore. Patrick Larkin: Right, right. Louis Diamond: Well, how do you think about the giving up control and full ownership of your practice versus owning a very small amount of a much larger entity? Patrick Larkin: There was such continuity. Oak Hill Wealth Advisors and Cerity Partners were so philosophically aligned that I genuinely never felt like I was giving up anything that I wasn’t glad to let go. My wife joined the business shortly before I left Wells Fargo Advisors. And still to this day, on my drive home from work, I call her up and say, “You’re not going to believe this.” And it’s all a positive, good thing. So Cerity has struck the perfect balance of that autonomy and support combination that I was looking for. So I still have control and a say over the way our practice is managed. Very shortly after the merger, my supervisor came down and met me for the first time, and we went out together after the day had ended. And early in the conversation I said to him, “What can I do to make your life easier?” And he said, “Pat, what can I do to make your life easier?” And that set the tone that still exists to this day. I almost cried when he said that because that was so different than what I had experienced up to that point. So the collaboration, the way we work together, it’s just absolutely amazing. And not once for a single moment have I second-guessed my decision. And it’s really weird because I’ve now been part of this organization for nearly nine months, and there just has not been one thing that’s occurred where I said, “That’s a disappointment.” It’s just been absolutely amazing every single day. Louis Diamond: Very cool. To me, there’s different arcs of when you want to ask people the question of, “Hey, any regrets?” And usually you don’t want to ask them too soon because they’re still going through the transition and integration and growing pains. And you don’t want to ask them too far in the future because you forget about what was life before. To be this short of a duration into this new partnership and to have these feelings, that’s absolutely pretty special. I got two more questions for you, Pat, if you don’t mind. Patrick Larkin: Sure. Louis Diamond: First one, economically, to me, one of the hardest things for really any advisor to really grapple with or to fully comprehend or make their own is, “I own 100% of the equity in my business. I get to decide when I want to sell in the future. My business is growing 10% per year. I wait to sell until 10 years from now, my business is going to be much bigger and I get to keep all the cash flow. I get to make all the decisions.” That compared to the path that you took, which was take cash off the table, which everyone understands, to, “Now, I own a much smaller piece of a much larger pie.” How would you talk to someone about the financial trade-off between a hundred percent ownership in their business, full control, full discretion over everything, versus becoming a minority equity partner in a larger entity? Patrick Larkin: You have to look at the valuation of my business, again, the day that we opened our doors as Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. There was such a massive jump in the value of the business. There was not going to be an opportunity for an appreciation at that level. So then, you have to compare what the growth rate is of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors versus a Cerity Partners. And I’m not embarrassed to say that Cerity Partners is and has been growing at a much faster rate of return. The value of the equity that I have retained in Cerity Partners, my ownership stake, I fully expect by the time I transact that business as I get closer to retirement, that’s going to be worth many times more than whatever opportunity I would have had at Wells Fargo with the valuation they would have provided me. Nevermind, very important, the tax consequences of a structure like this is all the retiring advisors that I worked with were taxed at their highest marginal rate. I owned a business and we were taxed at long-term capital gains rates. A significant difference in savings in what as the owner we actually realize. So yeah, I feel very comfortable with the ownership that I have and the control and continued opportunity with the meritocracy culture to increase my share of ownership in the company. Louis Diamond: Okay, and let’s do one more question here. I’ll pick it back up. So Pat, I think it’s a really cool perspective. It’s almost do your homework, and if you find the right horse and the right jockey that can run faster than you can on your own, that the equity value will compound and grow and appreciate in a faster, more efficient way than what you’re doing on your own, which makes complete sense. It’s the ultimate trade-off. And again, it’s like jumping into the deep end. On the one hand, Oak Hill was all you, right? You control the growth, for better or worse, for the good days, the bad days, the good years, the bad years, versus now your growth is diversified amongst hundreds of partners across M&A, across different lead flow channels, et cetera. It makes complete sense. But honestly, if I were an advisor, I don’t know how I would think about it. I think it’s all just fact-and-circumstance-based on where I am in my life and who the firm is and what I’m trying to accomplish. But it’s such a cool perspective because usually the playbook that we see, which is why we did this series, is go independent and there’s a long pause until there is a realization of all the value that’s been created. So seeing you do this in a much quicker timeframe, it seems like it was the absolutely right decision. To me, it just is another path, another way that an advisor or a firm is able to think about their future. Any final advice or parting words for someone who is sitting right where you were in 2021 or 2022 thinking about making the leap? And we’ll say a transition in general, or really anything you want to share to wrap our episode here. Patrick Larkin: Thank you for having me, and this is a great question. Happy to give a thoughtful answer to it. Before I’d left Wells Fargo Advisors through the program and started Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, I had an opportunity to go through a due diligence process and make sure that this was going to be a right move for me. There was no carrot out there that was obvious. I learned after that first conversation that I had built a practice that had some value to it. I was leaving behind the security of something I knew, leaving behind a significant amount in deferred compensation, and I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. And through that due diligence process, talked to about five other firms that had recently left Wells Fargo to join this RIA program. I asked them a lot of different questions about what their experience was. And at every point during those conversations, they all said the same thing at different points. And it sounded like this. They said, “I’m working harder than I ever have before, but I wish I had done this sooner.” So my advice to those people, do it. I know that sounds simple, but I mean it. The fear of leaving is almost always worse than the actual experience of leaving. And I understand the inertia of not leaving and the real apprehension of what was on the other side. But what I found was a version of this profession I genuinely didn’t know was possible. One where I could do things the right way on my terms for the people I care most about serving. And not every path is going to look like mine. Some advisors should go fully independent and stay there, and that can be an incredible life. But when it comes time to look for a partner, quite frankly, if Cerity Partners is not on your shortlist, you’re making a significant mistake. And I say that not to sell anything, but because I’ve lived the comparison firsthand and there’s simply nothing else like it. Louis Diamond: So Pat, it’s been really fun, but I don’t think we’ve had anyone on the eight years or so we’ve been doing this show that’s gone through this type of arc or journey that you have. One of my big takeaways or sticking points that this episode brought for me is by going independent and taking control over your future, you created complete optionality for yourself to do exactly what you wanted to do with your business, even if that was different than what you initially planned. So in your case, it was selling within three years of going independent, but by taking action, being proactive, playing some offense, you made the opportunity happen on your terms and your timeline. So this has been fun in so many different ways. I loved your comment about how when you went independent, it’s basically like the day of your IPO, the four-to-five-times increase in value versus an internal succession deal, and even just the way to think about getting equity in a larger entity versus running your own plays only. So thank you so much for doing this. This has been fun. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firm’s or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.   Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years A conversation with Louis Diamond and Patrick Larkin, Partner & Practice Leader at Cerity Partners.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: From Breakaway to Transaction in 3 Years. It’s a conversation with Patrick Larkin, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is The Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Ownership as a way of creating opportunities you can’t always predict. That’s exactly why we created our Build, Grow, and Transact series. Independence isn’t the end of the story. It’s often the beginning of thinking differently about enterprise value, optionality, and what comes next. Today’s guest is Patrick Larkin, Partner and Practice Leader at Cerity Partners, and formerly the founder of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. Patrick spent nearly 15 years building a successful practice at A.G. Edwards, Wachovia, and eventually Wells Fargo before launching his own independent firm in 2022. Just three years later, he merged that firm into Cerity. At first glance, that timeline might seem surprisingly short, but as you’ll hear, the merger wasn’t a change in direction. It was the result of seeing his business differently once he owned it. Yet, it’s this perspective that really brings that thought home. Patrick said the day Oak Hill launched felt like the business had gone public because overnight, what had been viewed as a book of business became an enterprise with substantially greater value, some four to five times the value of what it was worth at Wells. And that realization changed the way he invested, the way he hired, and ultimately the way he thought about the future. Pat and I also talk about something advisors don’t often discuss candidly, what life actually looks like after a merger. How much control do you give up? What changes day to day? How do you know whether you’re joining a partner or simply selling a business? Whether your long-term plan is to remain independent forever or eventually join a larger organization, Patrick’s experience is a reminder that ownership isn’t simply about control. It’s about creating optionality and putting yourself in a position where the next decision is yours to make. So let’s get to it. Patrick, thanks for coming on our show today. Patrick Larkin: Oh, my pleasure. Nice to meet you, Louis. Louis Diamond: You too. So let’s start off basically how we start every interview. Tell us about yourself, your background, and how you found your way into our industry in the first place. Patrick Larkin: Yeah, thank you for asking. I knew I always wanted to be a financial advisor. That part really wasn’t in question, but upon graduating college and being a 22-year-old, I knew that it was probably not practical to walk in and start advising people my parents’ age with their life savings. Probably wasn’t going to be a recipe for success. So I took a quick tour through the pharmaceutical industry first, which ended up being unexpectedly valuable. My employers there pushed me to think like an entrepreneur and within our territories. And honestly, that mindset never left me. It shaped how I built everything that came after. Eventually, an opportunity presented itself in Loudoun County, Virginia in Northern Virginia, and I became an FA trainee with A.G. Edwards, absolutely fantastic firm to start my career. Now, what drew me to this career was pretty simple. I felt like it was one of the professions that we had an opportunity to do so much good for others while simultaneously also doing well for yourself, and those two things aren’t in conflict. I also really loved the idea that in this profession there was no hiding. You don’t get paid to show up. You get paid for what you actually do. And perhaps for me, what was most important, I loved the weight of responsibility. I loved earning people’s trust. I loved the idea of deserving, being deserving of their trust, and being a steward of what they’ve worked a lifetime to build. I never took that lightly, and I still don’t. Louis Diamond: That’s amazing. Yeah, I mean, the number of people I’ve heard, you talked so fondly about A.G. Edwards and there’s a bunch of other firms that have since been absorbed or emerged that are like the regional firms of old. So not surprised to hear you loved it. A.G. Edwards, obviously, became Wells Fargo Advisors or was acquired or merged with Wells Fargo. So I know you’re at Wells and A.G. Edwards until 2022. So give us a quick version. How’d you build your practice from the pharma world into being in FA? Patrick Larkin: Yeah, so as I started with A.G. Edwards, I came in at really just the perfect time. It was towards the end of the financial crisis. And I built the business the old-fashioned way with a lot of cold calling and eventually did some dinner seminars, which I can tell you is a very expensive way to learn how to speak in front of a room. But I made some progress, and I was also in a great office, small enough that some of the advisors there would hand off some of the smaller accounts that they weren’t interested in working with, and got an opportunity to get a lot of reps in working with real life clients and individuals. I knew early on I didn’t have enough talent to win on talent alone, so I made up for it and compensated for that with really hard work. The real turning point came for me when A.G. Edwards was first acquired by Wachovia Securities, and that was about five years into my career. And at that point, my branch manager, who was eyeing retirement, asked me to step in as her partner, and that changed everything. We eventually moved over to a Wachovia Securities office, another really great local office in Loudoun County, Virginia. And from that office, I worked on and became a CIMA, a CFP, worked with the clients, built a business through referrals. And I found at that point in my career when I would go to a meeting with Wachovia, eventually Wells Fargo, as a young 30-year-old, I would look around the room often and realize that I was the youngest person in the room. The funny thing was 10 years later, I would go into that same room and I’d look around and I still was the youngest guy in that room. And those demographics in our industry, and when I came into our industry, ultimately led that office that I worked in with Wells Fargo Advisors, I eventually was the recipient and party to five different succession plans- Louis Diamond: Wow. Patrick Larkin: … at Wells Fargo Advisors. I hoped that I had built a reputation as somebody that these other advisors would entrust with their clients. And over that time period, really, I would say professionally, one of my accomplishments I’m most proud of is all five of those retired advisors that I used to work with, who had an opportunity to see me work with clients, all became clients of mine, I still continue to work with. And it’s professionally just one of the greatest honors that I’ve ever had. Louis Diamond: I mean, that’s a large number of advisors you helped sunset, but I would agree it’s the ultimate proof of concept that they not only trusted you with their clients and their life’s work, but now also with their family’s wealth. So I like that, kind of the full life cycle there. So I’m curious, though, you stayed at Wells through a really turbulent time through the fake bank scandal. There’s a lot of attrition. I mean, obviously, they’re still a powerhouse to this day, but what kept you at Wells for as long as it did before you left in 2022? Patrick Larkin: You described it as a turbulent time. Pretty turbulent might be an understatement. Even before Wells, the transition to Wells, Wachovia Bank had been the first company that we transitioned to from A.G. Edwards. And we, of course, went through the financial crisis during that time period and handholding our clients and helping them get through that time period and dealing with concerns that we shouldn’t really have to be prepared with. “Is my money safe? It’s not what’s happening to the market, but is my money safe in your institution?” But once things stabilized, I found real purpose in partnering with some of the retiring advisors and opportunities that came up. It was a really wonderful climate and atmosphere in our local office. It was really a family-like atmosphere, and I still had a lot to learn. And all those advisors that I partnered with, I’ve joked I’ve never had an original idea in my entire life. I stole all my good ideas from them. And some of them were really ahead of their time, and I learned, adopted, and built my own philosophies by working closely with them. Ultimately, by the time I left Wells Fargo, I was finishing up the fifth sunset program and had only made my way halfway through the sunset before the opportunity presented itself to create my own practice. Louis Diamond: So I’m curious, when did you first seriously start thinking about leaving and what really tipped the scales for you? What was the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back? Patrick Larkin: Yeah, it really was a number of small items and ultimately one big one. But for a long time, I’d been content, but as I tried to grow the business beyond what I could do individually, I felt like I kept running into walls. There were it felt like limitations on how I could build out my team and structure the practice the way I envisioned it. Additionally, there were some new policies that also started to bother me. One of them was the platform advisory fee, which in my eyes was less about client transparency and more about replacing a declining revenue source on the firm’s balance sheet. And after dealing with clients and helping them through the bank scandal at the firm, I was concerned that this would come back and hurt me and the relationships that I had with my clients. Incidentally, I just recently onboarded a new client that transferred to us. And for them, looking at their statement, identifying this platform advisory fee- Louis Diamond: Oh boy. Patrick Larkin: … was the last straw for them before they moved about 15 million of assets to us. Also, I thought I would be I would be a better allocator of resources than Wells Fargo. Wells Fargo retained about half of the revenue that I earned for the business. They seemed to think that the best allocation of that money was additional middle management. Whereas, I thought investment in technology, investment in additional personnel, and an investment in marketing were best places to continue to build out my vision. The final straw, and really a thing that crystallized everything for me was when I read a book in 2021 called The Infinite Game, a book written by Simon Sinek. Chapter eight, the title is Ethical Fading. And it uses the Wells Fargo bank scandal as a case study in what happens when a firm loses its moral compass. I read the chapter and thought, “There it is, I have to do something.” That was really the final push I needed. I mentioned earlier I was very fortunate to start my career with a company called A.G. Edwards, a regional brokerage firm. And while I was at A.G. Edwards, there was a research report that came out on A.G. Edwards as a company. And I’m going to paraphrase a little bit on what was said in that report, but ultimately there was a line in there, and it was a criticism, but I took it as a huge positive as being an employee there. The line said, “While management does not necessarily say it, we believe the client is put ahead of the shareholder.” And that was something I was very proud of. And I just, upon reflecting on it, felt confident those were words that I never was going to see go to print about Wells Fargo. Louis Diamond: So you left Wells in 2022 and founded Oak Hill Wealth Partners in Lansdowne, Virginia. Walk us through that decision. Why go independent rather than going to another firm? Patrick Larkin: I really thought moving to another firm, the things that I had grown frustrated with at Wells Fargo Advisors, I would also find at another wirehouse firm. I was ready, and honestly, the simple answer is I thought I could do better. And I wanted control after having what I felt like was very little control. I had grown frustrated with others making important decisions, and I wanted an opportunity to grab the reins and make decisions on my own. I believe at that time, the future of wealth management was going to be built around fiduciary advice, and I didn’t want to watch that from the sidelines anymore. I was watching what was happening in the industry. And as we were trying to hire new advisors, reaching out to college graduates who were studying CFP programs, identified that they were more inclined to want to start employment with an RIA than a wirehouse. What made the timing work really well was Wells Fargo had actually introduced a program to help advisors in the private client group spin off and establish their own RIAs. Now, whenever I tell this to another advisor, particularly ones that are wirehouses, they can’t understand it. And quite frankly, I don’t understand why they helped us do it, but we were about the 30th practice that they helped us through this process and they provided real support. They hired consultants, made vendor recommendations, even referrals to financing so I could pay off my last succession plan before I left. The only really upside for Wells Fargo was that the ask was that we continue to use First Clearing as the custodian. And one of the downsides for me was I was going to leave all of my deferred comp behind with Wells Fargo. Now, all clients had to do to join me was sign a positive consent. And on May 9th, 2020, we turned on our computers in our new office and our clients were already there. That same day, we launched and started a relationship with Charles Schwab. And it was so exciting to be able to start shopping for what I thought was the best FinTech, really feeling like I was stuck with proprietary tools that Wells Fargo advisors had offered. I felt like I was a kid in a candy store. And if there was a cool tool that I identified that would help us serve our clients better, I was all in and I was buying it. I really feel that some of the technology that Oak Hill eventually bought into and some of the tools we’re using now are going to take years and years before they eventually trickle down to where the wirehouses are, if ever. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So it was really it was for the most part an internal move from one- Patrick Larkin: It was- Louis Diamond: … channel to the other. Patrick Larkin: … it was an internal move, but there was no requirement to stay at First Clearing. As a fiduciary, they couldn’t make those demands. And again, they helped us with the financing, which is really unusual that they helped us secure a loan so I could pay off the last retiring advisor. It’s really unusual that a bank will loan money where there is no business at the time, but because of previous experience that financial institution had working with Wells, they helped us facilitate the transaction. And the program is still in place at Wells Fargo, which is absolutely amazing to me after the experience that I’ve just had myself. Louis Diamond: Yeah, it’s interesting. I mean, does it cannibalize a more profitable revenue source? Sure. But if the alternative was all the assets go to Schwab or Fidelity, to me, honestly, it’s smart. I think they played the long game by not being adversarial on it. Patrick Larkin: I think they played a long game and they took the philosophy, and I think they use it as a recruiting tool that if you love them, set them free. And that’s exactly what they did. Louis Diamond: So for the rest of the episode, I want to talk about your eventual, and not that long period of time, transaction or decision to merge Oak Hill with Cerity Partners. This is our Build, Grow, Transact subseries. And I was really struck by your story because you were three years or so into running Oak Hill, and then your merger with Cerity Partners, an amazing RIA closed. That’s a fairly short runway. Usually when I see folks go independent for the first time, it’s 10, 15, 20 years, maybe never, that they decide to merge or sell. I’m curious to understand your thinking about the transaction. Were you looking to do something? Or was it just like right place, right time and the opportunity presented itself? Patrick Larkin: I had started Oak Hill with the intent of eventually down the road, much closer to retirement, looking for a partner. The opportunity and what I learned early on helped change that idea and philosophy, and I adapted and made modifications to take advantage of it. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So you weren’t necessarily planning on selling or merging the business, it just kind of circumstances happened the way they did? Patrick Larkin: Yeah. When we started Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, it was a really pretty short period of time before we started getting calls from larger national RIAs about potential acquisition, much sooner than I expected. Early on, I just brushed them off, but about a year in, I took one of those calls and it really just opened my eyes up. I realized for the first time this small firm, this little practice actually had some real value, way more than I’d given it credit for. That first call, that first exploration didn’t go anywhere. It wasn’t a good fit. But what it gave me was a much clearer picture of what the serious acquirers were actually looking for. And that changed decisions I made at Oak Hill going forward. I really at that point stopped trying to optimize for near-term profit and really thought of my business as a business and started building towards enterprise value, sometimes at the cost of short-term income. And that turned out to be exactly the right call. Louis Diamond: That’s such an interesting perspective. Let’s double-click into that concept. So it sounds almost counterintuitive that if you kind of had this light bulb moment that like, “Okay, maybe I want to transact my business sooner than I initially thought.” I think most people would say, “Let’s become lean and mean. Let’s become as profitable as possible so my EBITDA’s higher.” But you took the different approach. What were the decisions you did to invest more in enterprise value rather than current cash flow? Patrick Larkin: A true business is one that doesn’t need me to be here every day to operate. And when we left Wells Fargo Advisors, it was myself and one other advisor that created Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. I was responsible for about 95% of the assets and revenue. And one of the more significant investments we made is in additional advisors. I recruited three new advisors, all CFPs, to join Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. Whereas, before I had been largely managing all the relationships myself. For someone that kind of grew up in the regional wirehouse space, it’s pretty counterintuitive to start moving relationships away from you onto other advisors. You’re trained and built to create a moat around your relationships, and realized that the potential acquirers are not interested, at least the ones I was interested in, weren’t interested in buying a book. They were interested in buying a business. And that just meant every decision we made going forward was not profit-driven, but how can I increase the value of the business? So after that first call, I knew I probably would be looking to move forward with a transaction sooner as opposed to the end of retirement. That information that I got on that first call helped me realize that when Oak Hill Wealth Advisors opened its doors on May 9th, 2022, we effectively had an IPO. I had great familiarity with how the succession plans at Wells Fargo Advisors worked. And on that day that we opened our practice, the value of my business jumped to be four to five times the value of it in a succession plan at Wells Fargo Advisors. Now, I knew going forward that I was going to be able to increase revenue. I was going to be able to increase EBITDA. I was going to potentially have some benefits from a market tailwind. I knew the multiples of EBITDA that the firms use may fluctuate, but the biggest change by far occurred leaving the wirehouse and having the value of my business grow four to fivefold in that same day. So what I really focused on was making sure that I was going to, when I was ready to start looking again after I had worked on improving the practice, really was going to look for a firm that was going to be a good cultural fit for both my clients, my team, and myself. Louis Diamond: That’s such a cool perspective. I’ve never heard anyone say that the day we launched your independent business was like an IPO. But honestly, it’s so true. You’re planting a flag in the ground that like, “Here is real value. This is value that we’ve created that we own rather than it being a book of business and a W-2 paycheck.” And it’s a fascinating perspective. Patrick Larkin: Yep. It really is amazing that the value changed that much on one day and the future value changes. Looking at the equity that I owned in Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, it made sense to consider is there a better way to take some risk off the table for myself and my family and diversify some of the equity that I had in Oak Hill Wealth Advisors with a larger enterprise? Louis Diamond: It makes complete sense. Obviously, everyone would sign up for 4 to 5X increase in value. Patrick Larkin: Sure. Louis Diamond: That’s not the reason most people go independent, but it’s important to know. And also, what I really liked about what you shared is I think a really valuable learning for anyone is those calls come in, whether it’s from annoying people like me or from an acquirer, from a firm, they’re not all noise. You took it as an opportunity to learn. Even though that first person who called wasn’t the right fit, it crystallized something in your mind and it let you make proactive decisions that ultimately paid off in spades when it came time to sign the dotted line for your transaction with Cerity. So I think it’s brilliant. And it’s very big picture, big-business-owner-type stuff that I think a lot of people will just filter out because it’s annoying and I’m young, I’m not looking to sell, but that was the journey. Patrick Larkin: Yeah, that first call changed my opinion about timing of when to move forward with a partnership. Originally, I thought this would be something at the end of retirement. The timing of doing so sooner seemed a lot more appealing after having that conversation and realizing what we had actually built. Louis Diamond: Amazing. So ultimately you decided to merge with Cerity Partners. We’ve had Kurt Miscinski from Cerity Partners on the show. They’re a real heavyweight within the RIA world. Most recently, they were valued at $8 billion in a recap, and it’s a very impressive firm. What specifically drew you to Cerity versus other potential buyers? Like you said, you got a lot of calls. Patrick Larkin: After that first call, I just got to work and focused on continuing to take care of our clients, building a team, adding new advisors, being a mentor to those advisors. But at the same time, we were being approached fairly regularly by that point. And I had a pretty good system for quickly deciding whether something was worth a second look, and most weren’t. But about a year ago, one of the national RIAs caught my attention and I started having conversations with them. And once I had progressed with them, I though, “You know what? If I’m giving this consideration, I really need to cast a wider net.” So I reached out to other RIAs that I had looked at and admired and been keeping an eye on. And ultimately, my longtime business coach, Barbara Kay, suggested I talk with Cerity Partners, a company that one of her other clients had just recently joined. And from the very first call, I could tell something was different. And I talked to many different companies. Cerity Partners, and an individual I spoke with, Geoff Newman, they weren’t leading with valuation formulas or deal structure. They were asking questions about my clients, my team, and how I actually ran the practice. They had a very defined process for identifying partners who were genuinely compatible, not just advisors with books that were transferable. And that distinction mattered greatly to me. They also offered really, in my opinion, the right balance of support and still having some autonomy. And their aspiration to deliver consistent standard of care to clients, whether they be in California or Virginia, so that those individuals get the same quality of experience, resonated with how I was already running things within my practice. That combination of support and autonomy, I really liked the idea of continuing to have oversight over my local practice, over our practice, which included the budget, salaries, and bonuses. It more than anybody else felt like a partnership and not a buyout. And I really appreciate it during that first call, Cerity was the only company that talked about a hundred-year plan. It was amazing to me to hear what their thoughts were. Most of the other firms I spoke with talked about valuations. And very quickly in the process, I found myself on a Zoom call with a Patagonia fleece vest-wearing private equity rep walking me through a valuation. And it was efficient, but it was not a cultural fit for me. And the infrastructure behind us and the combination of autonomy is really harder to find than most people think. As I progressed with Cerity, I remember early on in the process thinking to myself, “My God, I hope they want me, I hope they want me,” because I could tell I’m a very process-driven person They had a process with the way they brought me on board. And ultimately, we had a due diligence trip set up to go to one of their larger offices where I met with one of their leaders, Claire O’Keefe, part of their practice development, and had an opportunity to meet with different leaders within the firm and really get my arms wrapped around the potential that they had. Just the quality of the people I encountered through the whole process just kept reinforcing the decision. And by the time we got to the finish line, it didn’t feel like a transaction. It felt like I was joining something that I was excited to be part of. So just a little bit more about what attracted me to Cerity, their culture is just phenomenal. Cerity Partners uses the word “meritocracy” and they actually mean it. Ownership and influence here track your contribution, not your tenure or how well you play the politics. I just attended my first partner meeting in April, and without exaggeration, it was the most extraordinary professional meeting I’ve attended in my 25-year career. During the meeting, there was open debate about the direction of the firm, and every voice in the room carried weight. You could feel the culture. And that type of culture is built over years. You can’t fake it. Everyone in the room it felt like was rowing in the same direction. And by the time the meeting was over, I was so excited to get back to my team and tell them about what I had just witnessed, I wasn’t looking for the exit. I was looking for the brick wall to run through. I was so excited. And every once in a while I wonder having spent so much time in the wirehouse spaces, the bar just set really low for me when I talked to some of my other colleagues that have been independent for a long time. But it was just an absolutely amazing experience. And I do want to just add, one of the last really important things to me about Cerity Partners is I’ve been very fortunate with my career and in this profession. And part of my goal over the rest of my career is to have a legacy. And my legacy currently exists with the families I’ve advised and the team that I’ve built and have served and led. But Cerity Partners is helping me achieve even a greater legacy in our industry with our shared long-term goals. During my first meeting, they talked about their hundred-year vision of being a worldwide employee-owned professional services firm. And currently, and this is very exciting, the employees are the largest shareholder of the firm. No one else I talked to talked about their long-term goals like this, and it’s a vision I believe in. I want to contribute to help to see it accomplished. And one day when I do retire, I want to look back and see how I contribute it to a company that I believe is going to change the direction of professional wealth management. Louis Diamond: Wow. Patrick Larkin: My partnership with Cerity Partners is going to make that a reality. It’s just an amazing place. Yeah, very happy. Louis Diamond: Honestly, you can’t fake that type of enthusiasm. It sounds like- Patrick Larkin: It’s not- Louis Diamond: … you entered into a transaction, which is it’s like jumping into the deep end. How do you sort through what’s the sales process versus what’s real? How much of this is actually going to translate to my life? But hearing you not that long after the transaction, you still feel that and it’s very cool. In the press release I read, you cited estate planning, private markets access, and cross-border planning as key reasons for the merger. Can you talk about what it was about those? Maybe- Patrick Larkin: Yeah. Louis Diamond: … anything else that was missed? Patrick Larkin: Yeah. Louis Diamond: And were those not things that you felt like you could have delivered yourself as a standalone? Patrick Larkin: I thought that they were going to help me be able to be more effective in delivering those, but they weren’t the complete picture. The capabilities that we cited in the release were genuine gaps I wanted to fill and have available for clients and be able to prospect and go after new additional clients. But being fully honest, there were also deeper drivers. One was my team. Sometimes we get emotional about this. Being someone who’s trusted is really important to me, and that’s something I hold in high priority. There are people that followed me out of Wells Fargo to join me. One of my client associates had delayed her retirement so that she could join me and help us launch for the first three months. One of my other client associates has been with me close to 15 years. These are people that trusted me to do the right thing and to make sure that I wasn’t walking them off the plank. Being able to join Cerity Partners and give them a future that didn’t hinge entirely on my personal longevity was a huge relief. And Cerity Partners is an ownership culture. I’m so happy to say today that every single individual on my team in our practice in Lansdowne is now either an equity owner in Cerity Partners or very shortly will be an equity- Louis Diamond: So cool. Patrick Larkin: … equity owner. So they have a stake as well in what they’re building. It matters. My youngest client associate noticed how much it costs to send to FedEx. And he goes, “Now that I’m an owner, maybe we should rethink about sending regular mail.” Another driver was my family. And I’ve always had the philosophy of trying to prioritize and clients first, team and colleagues, and then my family. And I’ve always made decisions that if I put those others before myself, eventually I’ll be taken care of. And going through this transaction, it was so generous to my family and provided such security. There was a little bit of guilt that, “Am I doing this for all the right reasons?” But being able to secure my family’s future, converting equity in a three-year-old RIA into a stake of a $8 billion-plus valuation with institutional backing, that was a meaningful moment and I’d be less than honest if I glossed over that. I also really wanted to be part of something larger than myself. And the opportunity to help build a legacy in this business with Cerity Partners really gives me the platform to do that. Louis Diamond: Very cool. I can tell that you’re genuine, not just because of the way you sound, the way you’re speaking, but in the very beginning of the episode, you talked about the reason you got into this business was because you thought it gave you the dual purpose of being able to help people, but also being able to enrich yourself or your family. So this answer, it comes full circle. You’re able to accomplish all these goals, which made it the right decision. And I think, look, I say to advisors all the time, “You’re allowed to be greedy, you’re allowed to be selfish as long as the clients are still in the front of your mind as the most important thing.” There’s nothing wrong with doing better for clients, building a legacy in your case, but also reaping the rewards of all your hard work and labor and also all the risks that you’ve taken over your career. I got to ask you, though, from being an employee of Wells, where you were running your team, for the most part, you can run the business within their guardrails the way you want, to then running an RIA, which is really like you’re fully in control of everything, to now being a partner, but you’re not the one who has the name on the door anymore. Patrick Larkin: Right, right. Louis Diamond: Well, how do you think about the giving up control and full ownership of your practice versus owning a very small amount of a much larger entity? Patrick Larkin: There was such continuity. Oak Hill Wealth Advisors and Cerity Partners were so philosophically aligned that I genuinely never felt like I was giving up anything that I wasn’t glad to let go. My wife joined the business shortly before I left Wells Fargo Advisors. And still to this day, on my drive home from work, I call her up and say, “You’re not going to believe this.” And it’s all a positive, good thing. So Cerity has struck the perfect balance of that autonomy and support combination that I was looking for. So I still have control and a say over the way our practice is managed. Very shortly after the merger, my supervisor came down and met me for the first time, and we went out together after the day had ended. And early in the conversation I said to him, “What can I do to make your life easier?” And he said, “Pat, what can I do to make your life easier?” And that set the tone that still exists to this day. I almost cried when he said that because that was so different than what I had experienced up to that point. So the collaboration, the way we work together, it’s just absolutely amazing. And not once for a single moment have I second-guessed my decision. And it’s really weird because I’ve now been part of this organization for nearly nine months, and there just has not been one thing that’s occurred where I said, “That’s a disappointment.” It’s just been absolutely amazing every single day. Louis Diamond: Very cool. To me, there’s different arcs of when you want to ask people the question of, “Hey, any regrets?” And usually you don’t want to ask them too soon because they’re still going through the transition and integration and growing pains. And you don’t want to ask them too far in the future because you forget about what was life before. To be this short of a duration into this new partnership and to have these feelings, that’s absolutely pretty special. I got two more questions for you, Pat, if you don’t mind. Patrick Larkin: Sure. Louis Diamond: First one, economically, to me, one of the hardest things for really any advisor to really grapple with or to fully comprehend or make their own is, “I own 100% of the equity in my business. I get to decide when I want to sell in the future. My business is growing 10% per year. I wait to sell until 10 years from now, my business is going to be much bigger and I get to keep all the cash flow. I get to make all the decisions.” That compared to the path that you took, which was take cash off the table, which everyone understands, to, “Now, I own a much smaller piece of a much larger pie.” How would you talk to someone about the financial trade-off between a hundred percent ownership in their business, full control, full discretion over everything, versus becoming a minority equity partner in a larger entity? Patrick Larkin: You have to look at the valuation of my business, again, the day that we opened our doors as Oak Hill Wealth Advisors. There was such a massive jump in the value of the business. There was not going to be an opportunity for an appreciation at that level. So then, you have to compare what the growth rate is of Oak Hill Wealth Advisors versus a Cerity Partners. And I’m not embarrassed to say that Cerity Partners is and has been growing at a much faster rate of return. The value of the equity that I have retained in Cerity Partners, my ownership stake, I fully expect by the time I transact that business as I get closer to retirement, that’s going to be worth many times more than whatever opportunity I would have had at Wells Fargo with the valuation they would have provided me. Nevermind, very important, the tax consequences of a structure like this is all the retiring advisors that I worked with were taxed at their highest marginal rate. I owned a business and we were taxed at long-term capital gains rates. A significant difference in savings in what as the owner we actually realize. So yeah, I feel very comfortable with the ownership that I have and the control and continued opportunity with the meritocracy culture to increase my share of ownership in the company. Louis Diamond: Okay, and let’s do one more question here. I’ll pick it back up. So Pat, I think it’s a really cool perspective. It’s almost do your homework, and if you find the right horse and the right jockey that can run faster than you can on your own, that the equity value will compound and grow and appreciate in a faster, more efficient way than what you’re doing on your own, which makes complete sense. It’s the ultimate trade-off. And again, it’s like jumping into the deep end. On the one hand, Oak Hill was all you, right? You control the growth, for better or worse, for the good days, the bad days, the good years, the bad years, versus now your growth is diversified amongst hundreds of partners across M&A, across different lead flow channels, et cetera. It makes complete sense. But honestly, if I were an advisor, I don’t know how I would think about it. I think it’s all just fact-and-circumstance-based on where I am in my life and who the firm is and what I’m trying to accomplish. But it’s such a cool perspective because usually the playbook that we see, which is why we did this series, is go independent and there’s a long pause until there is a realization of all the value that’s been created. So seeing you do this in a much quicker timeframe, it seems like it was the absolutely right decision. To me, it just is another path, another way that an advisor or a firm is able to think about their future. Any final advice or parting words for someone who is sitting right where you were in 2021 or 2022 thinking about making the leap? And we’ll say a transition in general, or really anything you want to share to wrap our episode here. Patrick Larkin: Thank you for having me, and this is a great question. Happy to give a thoughtful answer to it. Before I’d left Wells Fargo Advisors through the program and started Oak Hill Wealth Advisors, I had an opportunity to go through a due diligence process and make sure that this was going to be a right move for me. There was no carrot out there that was obvious. I learned after that first conversation that I had built a practice that had some value to it. I was leaving behind the security of something I knew, leaving behind a significant amount in deferred compensation, and I wanted to make sure I was making the right decision. And through that due diligence process, talked to about five other firms that had recently left Wells Fargo to join this RIA program. I asked them a lot of different questions about what their experience was. And at every point during those conversations, they all said the same thing at different points. And it sounded like this. They said, “I’m working harder than I ever have before, but I wish I had done this sooner.” So my advice to those people, do it. I know that sounds simple, but I mean it. The fear of leaving is almost always worse than the actual experience of leaving. And I understand the inertia of not leaving and the real apprehension of what was on the other side. But what I found was a version of this profession I genuinely didn’t know was possible. One where I could do things the right way on my terms for the people I care most about serving. And not every path is going to look like mine. Some advisors should go fully independent and stay there, and that can be an incredible life. But when it comes time to look for a partner, quite frankly, if Cerity Partners is not on your shortlist, you’re making a significant mistake. And I say that not to sell anything, but because I’ve lived the comparison firsthand and there’s simply nothing else like it. Louis Diamond: So Pat, it’s been really fun, but I don’t think we’ve had anyone on the eight years or so we’ve been doing this show that’s gone through this type of arc or journey that you have. One of my big takeaways or sticking points that this episode brought for me is by going independent and taking control over your future, you created complete optionality for yourself to do exactly what you wanted to do with your business, even if that was different than what you initially planned. So in your case, it was selling within three years of going independent, but by taking action, being proactive, playing some offense, you made the opportunity happen on your terms and your timeline. So this has been fun in so many different ways. I loved your comment about how when you went independent, it’s basically like the day of your IPO, the four-to-five-times increase in value versus an internal succession deal, and even just the way to think about getting equity in a larger entity versus running your own plays only. So thank you so much for doing this. This has been fun. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firm’s or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.  

Ryan Belanger — Founder & CEO, Claro Advisors Most firms are adding AI to existing workflows. Ryan Belanger chose a different path, acquiring a fintech company and rebuilding Claro Advisors around an AI-native platform. He explains why he believes the future belongs to firms that rethink how they operate, not just the tools they use. In Summary Most firms view AI as another technology investment. Ryan Belanger sees it as a business strategy. Louis sits down with the Founder & CEO of Claro Advisors to discuss why his $1.5 billion RIA acquired a fintech company, built an AI-native operating platform, and believes the firms that gain the biggest advantage won’t simply adopt new technology—they’ll rethink how their businesses are built. The conversation also explores the broader philosophy behind that decision. Ryan shares why he’s consistently chosen unconventional paths—from recruiting younger advisors and embracing a partnership model built around ownership to investing in proprietary technology instead of relying on third-party solutions. For advisors, the bigger question isn’t simply how AI will change their workflow. It’s how it may change what it takes to build a durable, differentiated advisory firm. The Storyline Every generation of wealth management has been shaped by a different competitive advantage. For some, independence paved the way to build unique branding and a bespoke client experience. Inorganic growth and M&A gave many firms access to scale and growth. Today, many believe the next advantage will come from artificial intelligence. But simply adopting AI may not be enough. Ryan Belanger has spent his career challenging conventional thinking. He left Morgan Stanley in 2012, well before independence became mainstream. He built Claro Advisors by investing in younger advisors instead of competing for established producers. He embraced a partnership model centered on advisor ownership rather than restrictive employment structures. And when AI began reshaping the industry, he made another unconventional decision: instead of licensing another technology platform, Claro acquired a fintech company and built its own AI-native operating system. Louis explores the reasoning behind each decision and the philosophy that connects them. Ryan explains why he believes proprietary technology will become a defining competitive advantage, how Claro’s AI platform, Claire, is changing advisor workflows, and why the biggest opportunity isn’t replacing advisors; it’s giving them more time to do the work clients value most. The conversation also tackles practical questions facing every advisory firm: how to integrate AI responsibly, where human judgment continues to matter most, and why the firms best positioned for the future may be the ones willing to redesign their businesses instead of simply adding another layer of technology. Topics Covered AI-native advisory firms Acquiring a fintech versus licensing technology Building proprietary advisor technology Advisor productivity and workflow automation Recruiting and developing younger advisors 1099 partnership model and advisor autonomy Enterprise building and long-term differentiation AI governance and advisor trust The future of wealth management technology > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why did Ryan launch independently long before it became common? (7:30) Ryan explains why leaving Morgan Stanley in 2012 wasn’t simply about independence—it was about creating a better business model while betting on himself. Why recruit emerging advisors instead of established producers? (15:00) Ryan shares why investing in younger advisors has become one of Claro’s greatest competitive advantages and succession strategies. Why would an RIA buy a technology company? (23:45) Rather than licensing another platform, Ryan explains why Claro acquired NDVR to build proprietary technology that could fundamentally change advisor workflows. How does Claire actually help advisors day-to-day? (33:00) From meeting preparation and client follow-up to portfolio management and workflow automation, Ryan walks through how AI is saving advisors meaningful time. Will AI replace advisors—or make them better? (36:30) Ryan discusses where AI belongs, where human advice remains essential, and why he believes technology should enhance – not replace – the advisor relationship. What does the advisory firm of the future look like? (38:20) Ryan shares his long-term view of how AI, proprietary technology, and advisor expectations will reshape wealth management over the next decade. Key Takeaways Ryan believes firms that build AI into the foundation of their businesses will create greater long-term differentiation than those simply adding new software. Claro’s acquisition of a fintech company reflects a strategy of owning core technology rather than relying exclusively on third-party vendors. AI is most valuable when it eliminates administrative work, allowing advisors to spend more time serving clients. Recruiting younger advisors and investing in long-term talent has become a defining part of Claro’s growth strategy. Advisor autonomy, equity participation, and technology can create stronger retention than restrictive employment models. Human relationships remain central to wealth management, even as AI becomes increasingly capable. The firms that adapt fastest may be those willing to rethink their operating model—not just their technology stack. https://youtu.be/7XvSXi0PzXI Quotable Moments “I wanted to build something that was integrated instead of just layering another tool on top.” “We’re trying to make really good advisors become super advisors.” “Clients still want advice from a person—but they’re going to expect that person to know how to use AI.” “The firms that win won’t necessarily be the ones using the most technology. They’ll be the ones building differently.” FAQs Why did Claro Advisors acquire a fintech company? Ryan believed owning proprietary technology would create greater long-term differentiation than licensing another collection of third-party tools. What is Claire by Claro? Claire is Claro Advisors’ AI-powered chief of staff, designed to automate advisor workflows, prepare meetings, organize client information, and streamline operational tasks. How is Claro using AI differently than many RIAs? Rather than layering AI onto multiple disconnected applications, Claro built an integrated operating platform where AI has access to the advisor’s workflow, planning, portfolio, and client information. Will AI replace financial advisors? Ryan believes AI will automate much of the administrative work advisors perform today, but that clients—particularly those with more complex needs—will continue to value human advice and relationships. How does Claro recruit advisors? The firm emphasizes advisor ownership, partnership, equity participation, technology, and operational support instead of relying primarily on acquisition-based recruiting models. What does Ryan believe will differentiate advisory firms in the future? He believes proprietary technology, integrated AI, and the ability to improve advisor productivity will become increasingly important competitive advantages. Ryan believed owning proprietary technology would create greater long-term differentiation than licensing another collection of third-party tools. Claire is Claro Advisors’ AI-powered chief of staff, designed to automate advisor workflows, prepare meetings, organize client information, and streamline operational tasks. Rather than layering AI onto multiple disconnected applications, Claro built an integrated operating platform where AI has access to the advisor’s workflow, planning, portfolio, and client information. Ryan believes AI will automate much of the administrative work advisors perform today, but that clients—particularly those with more complex needs—will continue to value human advice and relationships. The firm emphasizes advisor ownership, partnership, equity participation, technology, and operational support instead of relying primarily on acquisition-based recruiting models. He believes proprietary technology, integrated AI, and the ability to improve advisor productivity will become increasingly important competitive advantages. Related Resources Why AI Matters Now: Filling the Estate Planning Gap with Wealth.com Emotional Intelligence: The “Untouchable” Differentiator in an AI World Diamond Consultants Annual Advisor Transition Report Ryan BelangerChief Executive Officer & Founder Ryan founded Claro Advisors in 2012 after seven years at Morgan Stanley. He named the company after a Latin phrase “to make clear in the mind.” All Claro advisors strive to give their clients clarity and transparency, core tenants of the firm. Claro is continuously recognized within industry for its growth and thought leadership. In 2004, Ryan received a BA in Economics from The College of the Holy Cross and in 2009, he earned the Certified Financial Planner™ distinction. He is most proud of his philanthropic activity. Along with his wife Rachel, they started a foundation that raises money for genetic research in the name of their late daughter, Bella. Their focus is on extreme rare disease. Ryan resides in Boston’s Back Bay with his wife Rachel and their three children. He enjoys exercising, golfing, reading and spending time with his family. He has been featured in numerous magazines and industry publications and is regularly on television sharing his market thoughts. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future A conversation with Louis Diamond and Ryan Belanger, Founder & CEO of Claro Advisors.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future. It’s a conversation with Ryan Belanger, the Founder and CEO of Claro Advisors. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven, and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Artificial intelligence has quickly become one of the biggest topics in wealth management in the world. Almost every firm is experimenting with new tools, looking for ways to automate tasks, improve efficiency, or help advisors serve clients more effectively. But what if AI isn’t just another technology to plug into your business? What if it becomes the foundation for how your business is built? That’s exactly why I wanted to have Ryan Belanger on the show. Ryan is the Founder and CEO of Claro Advisors, a billion and a half dollar RIA that’s taken a very different path than most firms in the industry. Rather than simply adding AI to an existing tech stack, Claro acquired a FinTech company and is building its own AI native operating system designed specifically for advisors. What’s interesting is that this isn’t really a conversation about software, it’s about strategy. Ryan has consistently gone against the grain from leaving Morgan Stanley to launch an independent firm in 2012 before it became commonplace, to recruiting younger advisors when others chased established producers, to betting that proprietary technology will become one of the biggest competitive advantages an advisory firm can have. If AI is going to reshape wealth management, and I think it will, the firms that benefit most may not be the ones using the most tools. They may be the ones rethinking how the entire business operates. Ryan shares what that looks like in practice, what he’s seeing from advisors today, and why he believes the next generation of advisory firms will look fundamentally different from the firms we’ve known over the last two decades. There’s a lot to cover, so let’s get to it. Ryan, thanks for joining us today. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, nice to see you. Louis Diamond: You too, good to see you again. For those who aren’t familiar with you and your firm Claro, why don’t you walk us through your background and how you found your way into the industry to set the table. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, sounds good. So background was after college, I got a job at Morgan Stanley. I’d done an internship while in college and that gentleman, Morgan Dewey, said you should look at the Morgan Stanley. So I applied, got a job immediately, and just a couple weeks after graduating, I began as a financial advisor in a training program at Morgan Stanley and spent a good amount of time there and was able to develop skills necessary that really I had all along just growing up, a lot of entrepreneurial spirit I think is important in this business, how to relate to people, some competitiveness. I just happened to luck out and get into a profession that rewarded some of those skill sets. Louis Diamond: I’d say it was the right choice for you. So I think you started at Morgan Stanley in 2004. You were 21, 22 years old, just cutting your teeth, but the financial crisis happens a handful of years later. So what was it like being a relative newbie and seeing client accounts falling, the world crumbling every day? What did living through that crash teach you that’s shaped how you’ve built your business or serve clients now? Ryan Belanger: I did learn a tremendous amount at Morgan Stanley and I do still tell people if they’re looking to start at a big shop with big training programs and resources and really try to figure out what you like and then you can go off and get more specialized. But I do feel like it was a great place to get trained. They would post how many cold calls we were making every day. So on the board every morning you’d walk in and say, “Okay, where did you fall?” And I’m a competitive person, and I just want to make sure I was first every single day. So it was those type of things that really propelled me to keep interested in this business but also see the benefits. It’s really hard to get clients and that’s what people underestimate the most is to build the level of trust with someone that they’ll allow you to manage their retirement nest egg is it takes time. And I was 22, I looked really young, I had no experience, but I was fortunate to have two great mentors at Morgan Stanley, a gentleman named Todd Wetzel. He was brilliant at developing relationships, really caring for people. And then the gentleman that I had done an internship with went to Morgan Stanley as well, and he allowed me to work on some small accounts and really cut my teeth with some customers. And I was very fortunate to have done that, but you’d asked about the crash, and I think what I learned from that when people were literally weeping when their account values were down by 50%, 60% was that money is really emotional, and you have to understand how much it means to people, it’s not just the number on your screen. So having some empathy towards someone who’s really in a period of distress is now a critical skill that those of us have been around for this long understand. And there’s a whole generation, Louis, of advisors that have never experienced a real bear market, and I do fear for them at some point because when you go through that, it really changes the perspective that you have. But for me, it happened, I was four or five years into the business at that point, so I’m thankful that it happened just for my own personal development and I’ll never forget it. Louis Diamond: Yeah. Things have a way of happening for a reason and then the best advisors, best humans, they learn from them, and they’re better off for it. You’re very much right. I like that perspective about how the empathy around the emotions of money was something that you still carry and wear as a badge of honor today. So you left Morgan Stanley in 2012. I think you were 30 years old I read. One, that’s very young to consider leaving a firm like that nonetheless to go independent when in 2012, it wasn’t like everyone was going independent. There weren’t as many infrastructure providers or tech vendors or as much capital available as there is today. It definitely wasn’t a path that was as well-worn as it was. So two-part question, what pushed you to leave the firm presumably without a huge book of business? And second part, how’d you think about risk and reward at that age? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, what drove me was ultimately I felt like I was not seeing the value from the firm I was at, Morgan Stanley at the time. They were just taking an exorbitant amount of the revenue I felt. And I would see product managers strolling through and going to steak dinners, and I’m thinking, geez, I’m here every night on weekends. I’m busting my butt, and I should be creating more value to myself. And so that was one kind of thing. And I think there was a right level of naivete just to think that I could pull this off. I did believe that I had a small number of clients. I was hopeful that they would come because I had to hit a minimum for the custodian platform to start the RIA, which I was able to do. But I felt that they would come with me and that I had developed enough trust with them that I could be their advisor for a long time. And so for me, it felt like the technology wasn’t great. I was just told the mother-in-law is an expression. She says to my kids sometimes, “You get what you get and you don’t get upset.” Have you heard that expression? Louis Diamond: I have. My daughter reads a book where that line is repeated frequently. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, okay. So that’s how I felt then. I was like, “This is what you have and deal with it.” And to me, it just felt like there had to be a better way, but I didn’t have any capital backing, so I bootstrapped it. I Craigslisted an office from an estate planning attorney. I cold called Fidelity at the time they were our only custodian. I called to get some compliance help and I just thought that there’d be other people that would want to join. I named the firm, it’s a Latin phrase, it’s Claro Advisors, and it means to make clear in the mind. And I felt like not only was I trying to do that for clients, but I was trying to push advisors to challenge the norms here. There are other solutions out there. So I purposefully did put my name on it, I knew that there’d be other people that might feel the same way. I’ve always been a team sport guy. I like being around other people and collaborating. And I did have a good friend and credit to him. He said, “If you put this together, I’ll come with you.” And so just a couple weeks after I did, we talked and I said, “It’s up and running.” He came and Dana was our first, he’s still with us. And then a couple of months later, another guy I used to work with called and said, “Hey, I’m at this bank, and it looks like what you’ve done is interesting.” And I said, “We like it if you’d like to give it a try.” And so he came, his name’s Mike. He’s still with us. And so teams started to get put together. But I met someone in 2014, so I was two years in at that point and I was doing legitimately everything, not only as an advisor, but just all the stuff that you have to do to run the business. And it was becoming too much, especially the compliance. And I think nowadays starting an RIA, the threshold is so much higher. That’s why you see better than anyone else. You just see a lot more tuck-ins. But Jen Street was someone that I met and she really allowed me to catapult the business and scale it, so she took over all the operations and compliance and that really freed me up to be an advisor. And I really was just an advisor moonlighting as someone running. I would recruit a little bit or just be introductions, very soft. All that has changed based on what we’ve done in the last couple of years. Louis Diamond: Amazing. So thinking about risk spectrum, obviously now if you look back and say, “Hey, I had 30 million or whatever it was, I didn’t have anything to lose.” Right? But when you’re in it and you had income, you had recurring revenue, you had a paycheck versus the dynamic of, “I’m going to incur a bunch of expenses. I’m not positive who’s going to come with me. I’m not going to have a paycheck for a period of time.” Did the fact that your business was relatively small and you were just getting up and running, do you think it made it easier for you to reconcile that risk, or in some ways it was harder because your dispersion, if someone didn’t come, was that much higher? Ryan Belanger: I think it was easier for me, I knew I could always go to another firm. They would take me and whatever clients I had. I did it at a time when I had little personal risk, no kids, no mortgage. I didn’t have a wife at that point. So for me, it felt like the right time to take a risk. And I had been entrepreneurial in my life. I mean, I had a business in high school and my parents and grandparents were entrepreneurial. So that was in me, even if I didn’t really recognize it, was that I was okay with a good level of risk. And I do say this now to anyone that I’m hoping to partner with is that if you want to bet on yourself, I’ll go all in on you too. But you’ve got to be able to take that jump. I won’t let you fail, but you’ve got to be the one. I think that inertia is what a lot of advisors are like, “Geez, I don’t know, I got to give something up.” And that’s why the data’s important and you have all the data. The clients overwhelmingly go with the advisor. These days it’s just much harder to try to establish a new relationship with a trusted advisor than it is to just DocuSign some forms and move your account somewhere. So to me, it’s just trying to support people, and really push them to the edge and say, “No, this is possible. You should definitely explore this.” And I get it’s totally different, and you might be at a different life stage, but you know the numbers. I mean, tens of thousands of advisors are moving every year and not all of them have a small book like I did when I did it. Louis Diamond: Right, exactly. On one hand, making this entrepreneurial move as early in your career as you did, it was a benefit, right? Because you didn’t have as much to lose, like you said, the stage of life you’re in allowed you to absorb more risk. On the other end of the spectrum, if someone who has a massive business with immense value, they’re well situated financially, maybe their kids are through college, et cetera. And then most people are somewhere in the middle. So it’s interesting hearing that dynamic in real time. Let’s talk about Claro today. So you launched the business, like you said, you had to work hard to meet a minimum custodial threshold. So started from a very small base in 2012, but where is it today as far as assets, team size? Just give us some stats or perspective on what you’ve built in the last decade and a half or so. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, sure. So we enjoyed a tremendous amount of organic growth, Louis. We are not capital-backed. We don’t buy books of businesses, so I would recruit or partner with advisors that were coming from all the various places that you could think of that were finding us to be a very friendly place to work where you had a high level of autonomy, freedom, control, just great economics. We stayed out of people’s ways. We were just good people trying to help other good people, and it was just that friendly environment that allowed us to grow. And of course, we can’t discount market. I think markets had a tremendous growth for everybody in the business. And so the business as it stands right now, we’re about 1.5 billion in assets, 15 to 20 advisors. We got a 40-person team based primarily at a Boston headquarter, but we have advisors all over. And I think as we’ll get to, we’ve just gone through a really exciting new chapter for us where the next 15 years are going to look a lot different than the previous 15 years. Louis Diamond: Very cool. That’s amazing, and I’m in the recruiting businesses and doing recruiting yourself, it’s not easy to tell your story, get in front of the right people, the right like-minded people too, who are willing to take the leap to you, especially if you don’t have the capital backing and you can’t pay big deals or write big checks like others could, so that’s a massive testament to you and your vision. I know the average age of an advisor at Claro is around 40, yet the average advisor in the industry is 59, 60, 61, depending upon what data source you look at. What do you think you figured out about attracting, training, and really cultivating younger advisors that the rest of the industry either gets wrong or ignores? What’s been your hack in that regard? Ryan Belanger: I’ll just take a chance on people that others might not. And typically what that really means is someone with nothing, I’ll make them a deal and I’ll say, “Look, I believe in you. I think you’d be a great advisor. Let’s work on an arrangement where you feel like you can do this and I’ll support you.” And so our specialty was growing advisors from 20 million or 30 million into hundreds of million of client assets. And some of it was just being willing to look where others wouldn’t possibly want to spend their time. But when I was 22, someone took a chance on me, and so I owe it to the next generation to do that as well because there’s some great talent out there that really just isn’t getting the attention they deserve because they don’t have big books of business yet. But one of my core values is long-term thinking, and so that’s the way I frame my decisions is it doesn’t have to be a win today, but it can be a championship tomorrow or down three or five years from now. And so that’s how I’ve positioned it. I think that’s why we tend to get younger advisors. And then what happens when you get a lot of younger advisors, you have some older advisors say, “Hey, look, that’s an attractive bench of talent. I needed a succession plan. You guys seem to have a bunch of guys and gals that know how to do really great work and serve clients.” But I think that’s probably one of the things that I just was willing to take some chances on people at an earlier stage. Louis Diamond: Yep. I love it. I mean, once again, you said in the beginning, you developed an empathy for the emotional side of money and what people were going through that you carry through to this day. So not losing touch with the fact that you started. I mean, everyone starts in this business at some time, but I feel like once you’re successful or you’re through the first few years, you forget what it was like to be a newbie. So keeping that perspective and appreciation for the mentors you had, et cetera, is great. And honestly, from a business building standpoint, to me in this environment, unless you take on private equity capital, or you have capital from a BD or from a wirehouse behind you for recruiting, it’s really hard to win advisors with large books of business. So going in the blue part of the ocean instead of the red ocean, if anyone’s read that book, is very smart, looking under rocks that others don’t or really buying into or leaning into folks that you see something in that you know you can cultivate is a brilliant way. And it’s honestly more scalable, cheaper, you build a better business as well doing it the way that you do, but still, it’s hard. And my guess is the ROI is shorter. I’m sure you’ve made some hires that don’t pan out. So you have to have the tolerance and the demeanor to really invest in people. So long-winded way to say I love what you’re doing. How much of your recruitment of advisors and the retention of that talent as they become successful would you tie to how you compensate them, or equity if that’s available versus the culture of the firm and the mentorship that you and your team provide? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, I mean I’ll speak to what we’re offering now just because that’s more relevant, and so we are positioning ourselves now as the best home for advisors in the country and we really believe that’s the case, but our problem is we’re just a secret. We’ve just come to the market after our deal and all the technology that I know we’ll talk about. So we’re now marketing this message to advisors that want to partner with us. Economics will help them grow. We have a really interesting growth program. We’ll give them equity and Claro. I firmly believe that we should tie each other, just get in the same boat, so to speak. So our success is their success, but allowing them to operate in a 1099 model, which I know is not a popular strategy. I know everyone wants to buy books and own the assets and own the clients, but I feel there’s a tremendous amount of advisors that do not that probably should not be monetizing their businesses so quickly. And so I’m trying to foster a home for those like-minded advisors that want the autonomy to own their clients, maybe even still have a brand, but partner with a firm that’s got really credible technology, just unbelievable back office support and a firm of the future so that they can grow at 10X to what they could have on their own and then they could monetize. That’s what we’ve tried to put together here with our partnership model. Louis Diamond: Love it. Yeah, I mean it is definitely going against the grain a little bit, leaning into growing a 1099 model versus more of an acquisition model where everyone coming over as W-2s. So do you think about those trade-offs when it comes time to raising capital down the line or if you want to sell the business or even just an advisor wants to leave, that would stink if that happened. How do you think about those trade-offs? The ability to let advisors keep control and ownership. And honestly, in my view, probably win many people that you wouldn’t otherwise versus the stickiness, and the enterprise building abilities of owning the books of business. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, it’s a paradox because I understand why you want to own the client, but that’s a different business model. And frankly, I think it attracts different type of people. I had to really look myself in the mirror a couple years ago. We had enjoyed a tremendous amount of success, high growth and all organic, growing at 30% more per year on a CAGR basis. Nothing could stop us. But what happened was when private equity entered the space, everyone wanted to buy Claro. And to me, it didn’t feel like I did a lot of due diligence. I talked to a lot of firms. I didn’t see any differentiation in the market, Louis. To me from a technology perspective, everyone was doing the same thing. They’re using six to 12 different tools. We all know who they are. And now there’s a bunch of AI tools they’re layering on. And to me, it just didn’t feel like that was going to be any… There was no differentiation in the market. But admittedly, I had a couple of friends who I’d brought in at very low levels of AUMB that wanted to leave. And they said, “Look, I want to go to a firm that has more resources.” And so I had to just make a business decision and say, “Where do I want to take this?” And so it was only after some real adversity because you get emotionally attached to these people that you’ve developed friendships with and they still are friends, no doubt, but they can leave and they’re not captive. So we have to plan for that at Claro now, and I think we’ve got two ways that we’ve done that where it really ties the advisors to us, but in a way where they want to be here because we have something that’s really different. Louis Diamond: I like it. I’m sure we’ll get into that. But before we do, we’ll get into what you’re doing on the technology side, which is very cool and unique. How do you balance being an advisor and being a CEO? And what percentage of your time is advisor versus CEO and has that fluctuated or changed over time? Ryan Belanger: Drastically changed in the last year, two years or so. So the first 10, 12 years, I was really an advisor first and foremost. That’s inverse at this point, I’m strictly running the business. I have a great team here that deals with our clients, and I’ll still attend the client meetings and such, but I’m really laser-focused on running the business, trying to develop new partnerships with advisors, running an engineering team, sales and marketing. So the change for me has definitely occurred, and I’ll miss not keeping up with planning as much. I’m a CFP, but I just recognized that for me, I had to make a clear change and commit all my time to running the business, and so that’s the decision that I’ve made. Louis Diamond: It is a hard balance. I mean, there’s some people that try to do both, run a business, be an advisor, be a rainmaker, and something breaks. You’re not able to give all yourself to one thing. Then there’s others that would much prefer to be an advisor over a business owner. Others who say, “I’m over being an advisor. I want to be a business owner.” So I think the cool thing about doing what you’ve done is you get to choose, right? Some of it might be circumstances, but you really got to decide which elements of the business you personally want to invest your time in. And you really push your chips in the middle of the table. So let’s get into what you did in November of 2025. I read that you acquired a tech company of all things called NDVR. I’ve done this podcast for a while, speak to a ton of people. I can’t really think of anyone, any advisor or RIA that’s actually bought a tech company. So what made you puck the trend, buy a tech company and not just license all the FinTech that’s available today? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, that was the decision I had to make was do I really want to be different, or do I want to just say that I’m different? And so I was fortunate enough to get introduced to a gentleman named Michael Simon about 18 months ago, two years ago. And him and I immediately could see that we were both trying to solve the same problem, and we had perfectly mirrored image skills of one another so I had this deep wealth experience and he had a deep tech experience. And sometimes it’s just about timing in life, about catching someone at the right time. And I think we each caught each other at a really good time where we could see that coming together, we could create something really magical. And this AI wave was cresting. And I could see when I was talking to all the national PE firms or RIA firms about what people wanted to do, no one had quite figured out how AI was going to come into the technology mix, and it appears as though it’s just going to be another add-on tool to everything else. And for me, I wanted to try to build something that was integrated an all- in-one platform for an advisor so they didn’t have to use a ton of different tools. And I thought if you could do that, couldn’t you have AI that’s really much more rich and purposeful to help the clients? And so I felt like here’s an opportunity to elevate financial advice throughout the country, really give the clients all the value. And so what we’ve built allows advisors who are really good advisors to become super advisors because they’ve got this technology cape that no one else has that is allowing them to save a bunch of time and do all these really cool things for their clients. But it just felt like right time, right place. I’d been through a little bit of adversity and I felt like taking another swing just like I did 15 years ago going for it. I’ve really never been averse to risk, and so this felt like it was too good to pass up and so we went for it. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So that makes sense on the build or acquire versus rent dynamic, wanting to own the IP that makes you actually different. What does NDVR actually do? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, so everything’s all integrated. So we’ve kept the Claro Advisors name. We feel like clients really want to know that they’re still getting a person to deliver the advice. And so having the advisor’s name in our brand is important, but we have a Claro Intelligent Hub, and that’s where it’s an AI native operating system for the advisors. They spend their entire day in there, Louis. So they’re not toggling between 10 different Chrome tasks to perform all their business. And so what that allows them to do is not only it’s CRM, calendar, contacts, emails, messages, but we also have all the portfolio information. So trading history and we can do tax loss harvesting and factor-based investing. So we’ve got institutional grade portfolio management, and that’s really what Endeavor had created through their R&D was the hyper-personalized portfolios where you have a customer’s financial plan directly tied to their account. So there’s never any de-linking between the two. It’s really sophisticated technology that we can provide to our clients. So that’s all integrated as well. And so we’ve since continued to build the build upon that layer of integrated proprietary technology. Louis Diamond: It’s very interesting. And we have to imagine part of you maybe now or in the future is, okay, we’ve built this amazing technology mousetrap for our advisors, but do we become a FinTech? Is there any thought of eventually licensing what Endeavor is doing for your business and your clients to other RIAs? How do you think about that dynamic of just building something unique and different for Claro that advisors can latch onto versus making what you and your partners have developed into something that someone else can take and license themselves? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, it’s a fair question. We get it a good amount. While there might be a possibility that we license this to some other businesses, our main goal right now is to keep it captive to RIAs that want to partner with Claro. And so we feel like this gives them a true level of differentiation in the market, and so that’s the approach that we’re taking right now. Being a FinTech company, there’s a lot of different skills. The setup and tear down of getting someone to use the platform and I think all that time and resources we want on sales and marketing to try to attract new advisors and continue to develop just jaw-dropping technology for the existing advisors. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Let’s talk a little bit about your partnership model. So it does sound unique in that you have people that are 1099, but you don’t usually also hear partner. So how does it work? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, so we’re offering advisors to come and use Claro as a back office so you can have your own brand if you want or you can just be a Claro advisor. We have both here and you’ll be a 1099 advisor so you’ll still own the business that you’ve owned. So if you were at a wirehouse or something, you would actually now be creating some enterprise value for yourself. But if you’re an existing REA, you’d be coming to us because you’re tired of doing tech vendor due diligence all the time or you’re tired of the compliance, the AI regulations. That’s just coming. So that’s going to be a huge challenge for REAs, so we’re seeing a lot of interest from REAs saying, “Look, you’re not asking me to give up really anything except the stuff that I hate to do anyway, so this sounds great.” So they partner with us. In return, they get all access to our technology And we’ll provide all the back office support, office space, dedicated resources, planning, everything you could want to have to operate a business. We do have a growth program that’s really interesting. And then we’ve got this equity in Claro. As you’re a partner with Claro, you should get equity so we give stock options to our advisors who are here and every year thereafter. And naturally, that’s a way to stay connected with the advisor. So hopefully they never want to leave, and I do believe that once you experience our technology, you never want to go back to trying to do it the way you were doing it before. Louis Diamond: It’s like instead of building the most enclosed box that you keep people in with sticks and with locks and keys like a lot of firms do, it’s we’re going to keep advisors here, but not by force, but because they have the stock options, because you’re delivering value, because they have this amazing technology. To me, that’s the dynamic that so many firms across the industry get wrong is that they try to keep advisors where they are by restrictive covenants and by fear, and by retribution rather than if we just do good work for people, we add value, we make ourselves indispensable to the advisor. To me, it creates a healthier dynamic. I think firms would actually retain more even if it’s a gentler approach. And I love what you’re doing there. I think it’s the exact right way to think about we have advisors that are 1099, so yeah, they could leave us, but we’re doing things that make it that they don’t want to leave us. And that’s your charge as the owner to create the infrastructure and the structure where people could go out on their own, but there isn’t an advantage to do so. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, I think the culture is a big thing for us. And if you have people here that don’t want to be here, that’s a problem. And I think that’s what you see in a lot of the wirehouses. Frankly, they scare people and they don’t. It’s like, oh my God, if I leave. And for us, it’s like personally, life is too short. I want to work with people that want to work with me. I’ve got other things going on in my life and these things are just work things. And so I want to enjoy being in the office every day with people that want to be here. And if you think you’ve found a different place, you should go explore that. It’s really a soft approach. I know it’s not the most popular approach, but that’s just the style that I have. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the trend in your career and in launching Claro was we’re going to do things that aren’t popular, but that work for us, like hiring younger advisors that may not have a book or have a small book, buying a tech company instead of licensing it, being 1099 when you’re recruiting instead of owning books of business. There’s a series of decisions you’ve made as the business owner that they’ve worked out, they’ve paid off, but they’re definitely against the grain. And I very much respect that. Ryan Belanger: I really have never been afraid to be a little different, and so I think typically you find other people that might be interested, but it’s a big pool out there. There’s 300,000 advisors so there’s something for everyone, which is awesome. Louis Diamond: Totally agree. Let’s get back to the AI platform that you’ve built, or that you’re building. Maybe give a real tangible example. If I’m a Claro advisor, how has my life changed now that I’m using this platform versus before? So the old model was I log in, like you said, to 10 different Chrome tabs. I’m meeting with clients, doing planning, et cetera. What is the day in the life? How does it look different from what an advisor’s actually doing today versus before this platform was rolled out? Ryan Belanger: Yeah. All right. I’ll just give you a couple examples. So a client will send you a request and say, “Louis, I need $25,000.” And so a typical advisor would either write a note down, go drop it off at the CSA’s desk, or maybe forward that email to the CSA and then that person would have to input it into their CRM, and they go perform the task. And then the advisor would want to know where things are in that process so that there’s a lot of back and forth. With our system, Claire, our intelligent chief of staff, AI chief of staff, you just forward that task to [email protected]. It recognizes the email address that the client is emailing from, it knows the account number. It talks to our portfolio engineer. It knows which account to raise the cash from because it knows the tax jurisdiction, and otherwise, and it performs the task. And the last push of a button is that CSA just moving money from the custodian. So all along the way, the advisor can check on the task and see where it is in the process. It’s beautifully integrated in the intelligent hub, but you could see how that would save a tremendous amount of time and it’s a better customer experience. The mistakes get limited. So it really allows the advisor to get things done at a much higher level. So we’re raising productivity quite a bit. First of all, she’ll establish your meetings, Claire will. So she’ll schedule them for you. She’ll prep them for you. So we have a button, say prep the meeting because we have all the notes, emails. If you’re texting portfolio data, because she has all that information in about 30 to 45 seconds, she’s going to present to the advisor a really nice meeting summary that, “Hey, here’s the things that we should talk about.” She’s going to surface things that the advisor’s forgotten about because she doesn’t forget things. And so she’s prepped the meeting for you, so you’ve saved a couple hours there. She joins the meeting, she takes all of your notes, stores them in the system. She’ll give you a follow-up email. She knows your writing style, so she’ll know that you like to call this client this, and you send these emails typically at this time. And so she’ll deliver a nice follow-up email instantly for the advisor. They click that button, that’s done. So there’s just a lot of things that where she’s efficiency-wise where on 20, 30 hours a week that we’re saving advisors just on the productivity tools alone, so that’s where we’re seeing advisors seeing a ton of value in this. Louis Diamond: It’s very cool. Ryan Belanger: And then there’s a whole portfolio management capabilities, sweeping idle cash and tax loss harvesting and rebalancing that gets done while advisors are having a cup of coffee. They don’t have to think about these things. It just gets done for them. Louis Diamond: It’s so cool because it’s like I think I can conceptualize or think of building in Claude any one of those functionalities for the most part, but the way that the flow of things works and the journey of it is unique. I think every advisor would be interested in that type of promise of saving that much time. So how do you think now in the future, how do you think about the human advisor interaction, and what the human and the advisor will do versus what can be offloaded to AI? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, certainly a lot of the non-client-facing activity can be unloaded and that’s where advisors spend, according to recent studies, almost 60% of their time non-client-facing. So we’re trying to take all that off of their plates for them. We strongly believe clients still want the message to come from a person that has a level of experience and understands them. But at the same point, I think there’s a growing curiosity about, geez, what could it do for me? And so shouldn’t my advisor know how to use it? And so I think you’re seeing a lot of advisors put their head in the sand and say, “I don’t know. I’m just going to hope people don’t really want to use this and adopt it.” They’re a little bit shortsighted there. Our bet is that clients are going to want an advisor that knows how to use tech, has really sophisticated tech, but it isn’t just another tool layered on top that now my data is in that tool. The reason our system is so beautiful and integrated is because it captures everything in a structured and secure way. So all of the compliance is in there. We whitewash all the PII that’s sensitive information, so we’re not layering another tool on, because it’s integrated, we have an AI governance committee that really takes it seriously. How are we using this information? And so we’ve got an approach and we’ve put guardrails around what it can do and what it can’t do. Might there be a generation, Louis, that wants an AI advisor? I don’t know, that could happen. A twin, a digital twin where you say, “Look, I want to talk to Louis.” It’s 10 o’clock at night. He might be in a different time zone than me. He’s got little kids, but I do have this question. And so we’re iterating ideas on how we can surface that for an advisor to be advisable 24/7 without actually having to be available 24/7. Louis Diamond: Seven. It’s amazing to think about. I mean, obviously you’re deeply in this. You have a front row seat into the power of AI, how it’s transforming your business, doing due diligence on acquiring this technology five years from now, 10 years from now, what does the industry look like as a result of AI? What’s your big bet? Ryan Belanger: A lot of the big firms are going to try to figure out how to layer in tech. It’s going to be very difficult to do that. It’s built on extremely old legacy technology. They’ll be slow. They’ll figure out how to do some things. What we’re already seeing from advisors is the wow factor. Wow, I didn’t know this was even possible, and so I think just given our size and where we are, we have an advantage that we can build things from the ground up very quickly. I mean, what used to take an engineer a couple of months or years can be done in a couple of days or weeks, so things have really sped up in terms of the development. It’s much easier to build it than buy it. And so I think you’ll see a lot of firms trying to do what we’ve done, really build proprietary technology. And I think there’ll be a few winners that are able to do that, but being tech forward and aligned with someone who’s thinking about it, I think is what a lot of advisors are going to want to be. That’s the type of firm people would want to partner with, I think. Louis Diamond: What about the dynamic of, like you said, the digital twin thing is equal parts cool as it is terrifying, how do you see, we’ll say the threat of AI impacting the profession of being a financial advisor? Do you look at it as the entire pie is going to grow because everyone’s more efficient? Or do you look at it as it’s going to take out a lot of the advisor capacity we have because it’s no longer necessary? Where do you fall on that spectrum? Ryan Belanger: So robo-advisors came and went, you remember those. I mean, not that they went, but they never took off the way that it was projected. They’re still great businesses, but the human advisor won that battle. Clients do want an advisor, particularly at the higher end, and so I think at the lower end of the market, you’re going to see some AI solutions where people are perfectly comfortable just talking to someone in AI, and they’ll figure out if there’s a hallucinization or not. But I think there’s definitely going to be a market for it, and so I think it just depends on where the clients are and what level of complexity they have. On the higher end, I do feel like the advisors will continue to have a huge advantage there. But we’re building tools to give optionality to advisors. There might be some advisors who say, “Look, I’ll charge half the fee that I used to charge so you can get my digital twin. And that’s a win-win situation for everybody.” Louis Diamond: Yep, that’s fair. So do you look at your competitive ecosystem now? Not for recruiting advisors, let’s say for winning clients. Do you look at Farther and Savvy and different AI or FinTechs as your competition or do you still look at it as the wirehouses and other traditional RIAs? Ryan Belanger: I mean, Farther and Savvy have done a great job of going after this market. I think we’re not as well known yet as they are. We’ve certainly built out what we think is tremendous technology second to none. There’s a huge market of the IBD space that is just these guys and gals are stuck on these old platforms and things are okay, but they’re not super compelled to switch until maybe they see something like this, and so we have a massive pipeline of advisors and I’ve been recruiting for a long time. I’ve never had a pipeline like this. So I know it feels different to me. People really are interested in this. It’s enough for them to want to see tech demos and come visit us and really understand, okay, this is a firm that is challenging what’s possible and that’s someone that maybe I want to be aligned with, and so I think that there’s a lot of places where we can get the talent. And so for us, it’s just trying to find the right people that we want to partner with for the long term. Louis Diamond: Very cool, I got two more questions for you. It’s pretty remarkable that to get from where you started to now, the recruiting you’ve done, buying a FinTech, integrating it, that you still don’t have private equity investor outside capital. So you think it’s on the roadmap, whether it’s a certain size or you’re looking for personal liquidity where the business will just need it because it’s expensive to operate a FinTech platform and to scale up and to keep growing the firm. Do you think there’s a world in which you take on external capital to fuel your growth? Ryan Belanger: Most certainly. I mean, things have developed for us very quickly here, and outside capital and venture particular is a space that we’re actively in discussions with firms that believe in our vision, understand the value that we can create, and there’s just no doubt that you have to have some wind at your back to get to the market, and so while we’re not a household name right now, I’m confident in two years we will be, and our plan is to grow to hundreds and thousands of advisors across the country. Louis Diamond: Wow, big vision, but I love it. Last question for you. If you were 30 years old again, which I think everyone would kill for that opportunity, leaving Morgan Stanley today instead of in 2012, what do you think you would do differently knowing what you know now? Ryan Belanger: At that point, interest rates were near zero, Louis. Valuations you remember were two to three times revenue. It felt expensive then. Obviously things have changed quite a bit. So I would’ve begged, borrowed, and stole all the money I could from friends and family and said, “I need to buy as many businesses as I could at two times, three times revenue and pay, I don’t know, 3% loan.” Just in hindsight, that’s what everyone should have done. That’s not the path that we chose, but I think there’s a huge opportunity in front of us to elevate financial advice across the country, make really good advisors even better by putting that super cape on them. And so we’re very excited about the future, what we’ve got in store, and what we’re going to deliver to the market. And it seems like just yesterday that I walked out of Morgan Stanley with very little assets and tried to start this RIA, but I’m very thankful for all the people that have been supporting me throughout this journey. Louis Diamond: Amazing. And that’s a great spot to end, but let me ask the inverse of that question. Let’s say you leave in 2026, so leave today, you’re 30 years old, but you have the benefit of hindsight. You know what you know now. What would you do differently around the transition or building the firm other than of course be amazing if you can buy businesses for a fraction of what they cost today? Ryan Belanger: I would want to make sure that I’ve got an integrated solution. I don’t want to be picking a bunch of different vendor tools. I know that’s going to become way too time-consuming for me. So I would really try to figure out how you can get something that’s integrated that can scale, but I wouldn’t change anything about the people. I think you got to be able to connect with people that are like-minded and you still take the risk. What I can’t believe, Louis, is that people that sit at the wirehouses take a home team discount and they’re so fearful of leaving Morgan Stanley or Merrill Lynch or UBS, but why are they taking that? The market says you should be paid double what you paid. And it’s not just like that’s 20, 30 years of data here that show that. And so I just would keep pushing people to bet on yourself. Your clients will come with you. Yes, that firm that you love will be the first ones to try to steal your clients. They’re going to call them, and that’s one way, loyalty. Another thing I don’t understand, but that’s the way the business is structured. I think there’s a huge opportunity to just educate advisors about what’s out there and I would take the risk. Louis Diamond: Love it. Ryan, this has been very fun. What you’ve accomplished, like I said earlier, gone against the grain at every turn. Leaving on the younger side without a huge business, buying and integrating a technology company, recruiting younger advisors without books of business. Every single thing you’ve done has been a different playbook. So I’m pumped to watch how we make Claro a household name and how this approach is going to pay off in spade. So I appreciate hearing this different perspective, and I know our listeners did as well, so much appreciated today. Ryan Belanger: Well, thanks for having me on. I know it’s a long time coming. Thanks for your patience. I wanted to make sure we had something really exciting to talk about when we finally did this, and hopefully I can come back in a couple years and catch up. And congratulations on everything you guys have built. You guys are just a premier name out there, and it’s been fun to watch your success as well. Louis Diamond: Thank you, Ryan, I appreciate it. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future A conversation with Louis Diamond and Ryan Belanger, Founder & CEO of Claro Advisors.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Why AI Matters Now: How a $1.5B RIA is Building the Firm of the Future. It’s a conversation with Ryan Belanger, the Founder and CEO of Claro Advisors. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven, and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Artificial intelligence has quickly become one of the biggest topics in wealth management in the world. Almost every firm is experimenting with new tools, looking for ways to automate tasks, improve efficiency, or help advisors serve clients more effectively. But what if AI isn’t just another technology to plug into your business? What if it becomes the foundation for how your business is built? That’s exactly why I wanted to have Ryan Belanger on the show. Ryan is the Founder and CEO of Claro Advisors, a billion and a half dollar RIA that’s taken a very different path than most firms in the industry. Rather than simply adding AI to an existing tech stack, Claro acquired a FinTech company and is building its own AI native operating system designed specifically for advisors. What’s interesting is that this isn’t really a conversation about software, it’s about strategy. Ryan has consistently gone against the grain from leaving Morgan Stanley to launch an independent firm in 2012 before it became commonplace, to recruiting younger advisors when others chased established producers, to betting that proprietary technology will become one of the biggest competitive advantages an advisory firm can have. If AI is going to reshape wealth management, and I think it will, the firms that benefit most may not be the ones using the most tools. They may be the ones rethinking how the entire business operates. Ryan shares what that looks like in practice, what he’s seeing from advisors today, and why he believes the next generation of advisory firms will look fundamentally different from the firms we’ve known over the last two decades. There’s a lot to cover, so let’s get to it. Ryan, thanks for joining us today. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, nice to see you. Louis Diamond: You too, good to see you again. For those who aren’t familiar with you and your firm Claro, why don’t you walk us through your background and how you found your way into the industry to set the table. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, sounds good. So background was after college, I got a job at Morgan Stanley. I’d done an internship while in college and that gentleman, Morgan Dewey, said you should look at the Morgan Stanley. So I applied, got a job immediately, and just a couple weeks after graduating, I began as a financial advisor in a training program at Morgan Stanley and spent a good amount of time there and was able to develop skills necessary that really I had all along just growing up, a lot of entrepreneurial spirit I think is important in this business, how to relate to people, some competitiveness. I just happened to luck out and get into a profession that rewarded some of those skill sets. Louis Diamond: I’d say it was the right choice for you. So I think you started at Morgan Stanley in 2004. You were 21, 22 years old, just cutting your teeth, but the financial crisis happens a handful of years later. So what was it like being a relative newbie and seeing client accounts falling, the world crumbling every day? What did living through that crash teach you that’s shaped how you’ve built your business or serve clients now? Ryan Belanger: I did learn a tremendous amount at Morgan Stanley and I do still tell people if they’re looking to start at a big shop with big training programs and resources and really try to figure out what you like and then you can go off and get more specialized. But I do feel like it was a great place to get trained. They would post how many cold calls we were making every day. So on the board every morning you’d walk in and say, “Okay, where did you fall?” And I’m a competitive person, and I just want to make sure I was first every single day. So it was those type of things that really propelled me to keep interested in this business but also see the benefits. It’s really hard to get clients and that’s what people underestimate the most is to build the level of trust with someone that they’ll allow you to manage their retirement nest egg is it takes time. And I was 22, I looked really young, I had no experience, but I was fortunate to have two great mentors at Morgan Stanley, a gentleman named Todd Wetzel. He was brilliant at developing relationships, really caring for people. And then the gentleman that I had done an internship with went to Morgan Stanley as well, and he allowed me to work on some small accounts and really cut my teeth with some customers. And I was very fortunate to have done that, but you’d asked about the crash, and I think what I learned from that when people were literally weeping when their account values were down by 50%, 60% was that money is really emotional, and you have to understand how much it means to people, it’s not just the number on your screen. So having some empathy towards someone who’s really in a period of distress is now a critical skill that those of us have been around for this long understand. And there’s a whole generation, Louis, of advisors that have never experienced a real bear market, and I do fear for them at some point because when you go through that, it really changes the perspective that you have. But for me, it happened, I was four or five years into the business at that point, so I’m thankful that it happened just for my own personal development and I’ll never forget it. Louis Diamond: Yeah. Things have a way of happening for a reason and then the best advisors, best humans, they learn from them, and they’re better off for it. You’re very much right. I like that perspective about how the empathy around the emotions of money was something that you still carry and wear as a badge of honor today. So you left Morgan Stanley in 2012. I think you were 30 years old I read. One, that’s very young to consider leaving a firm like that nonetheless to go independent when in 2012, it wasn’t like everyone was going independent. There weren’t as many infrastructure providers or tech vendors or as much capital available as there is today. It definitely wasn’t a path that was as well-worn as it was. So two-part question, what pushed you to leave the firm presumably without a huge book of business? And second part, how’d you think about risk and reward at that age? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, what drove me was ultimately I felt like I was not seeing the value from the firm I was at, Morgan Stanley at the time. They were just taking an exorbitant amount of the revenue I felt. And I would see product managers strolling through and going to steak dinners, and I’m thinking, geez, I’m here every night on weekends. I’m busting my butt, and I should be creating more value to myself. And so that was one kind of thing. And I think there was a right level of naivete just to think that I could pull this off. I did believe that I had a small number of clients. I was hopeful that they would come because I had to hit a minimum for the custodian platform to start the RIA, which I was able to do. But I felt that they would come with me and that I had developed enough trust with them that I could be their advisor for a long time. And so for me, it felt like the technology wasn’t great. I was just told the mother-in-law is an expression. She says to my kids sometimes, “You get what you get and you don’t get upset.” Have you heard that expression? Louis Diamond: I have. My daughter reads a book where that line is repeated frequently. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, okay. So that’s how I felt then. I was like, “This is what you have and deal with it.” And to me, it just felt like there had to be a better way, but I didn’t have any capital backing, so I bootstrapped it. I Craigslisted an office from an estate planning attorney. I cold called Fidelity at the time they were our only custodian. I called to get some compliance help and I just thought that there’d be other people that would want to join. I named the firm, it’s a Latin phrase, it’s Claro Advisors, and it means to make clear in the mind. And I felt like not only was I trying to do that for clients, but I was trying to push advisors to challenge the norms here. There are other solutions out there. So I purposefully did put my name on it, I knew that there’d be other people that might feel the same way. I’ve always been a team sport guy. I like being around other people and collaborating. And I did have a good friend and credit to him. He said, “If you put this together, I’ll come with you.” And so just a couple weeks after I did, we talked and I said, “It’s up and running.” He came and Dana was our first, he’s still with us. And then a couple of months later, another guy I used to work with called and said, “Hey, I’m at this bank, and it looks like what you’ve done is interesting.” And I said, “We like it if you’d like to give it a try.” And so he came, his name’s Mike. He’s still with us. And so teams started to get put together. But I met someone in 2014, so I was two years in at that point and I was doing legitimately everything, not only as an advisor, but just all the stuff that you have to do to run the business. And it was becoming too much, especially the compliance. And I think nowadays starting an RIA, the threshold is so much higher. That’s why you see better than anyone else. You just see a lot more tuck-ins. But Jen Street was someone that I met and she really allowed me to catapult the business and scale it, so she took over all the operations and compliance and that really freed me up to be an advisor. And I really was just an advisor moonlighting as someone running. I would recruit a little bit or just be introductions, very soft. All that has changed based on what we’ve done in the last couple of years. Louis Diamond: Amazing. So thinking about risk spectrum, obviously now if you look back and say, “Hey, I had 30 million or whatever it was, I didn’t have anything to lose.” Right? But when you’re in it and you had income, you had recurring revenue, you had a paycheck versus the dynamic of, “I’m going to incur a bunch of expenses. I’m not positive who’s going to come with me. I’m not going to have a paycheck for a period of time.” Did the fact that your business was relatively small and you were just getting up and running, do you think it made it easier for you to reconcile that risk, or in some ways it was harder because your dispersion, if someone didn’t come, was that much higher? Ryan Belanger: I think it was easier for me, I knew I could always go to another firm. They would take me and whatever clients I had. I did it at a time when I had little personal risk, no kids, no mortgage. I didn’t have a wife at that point. So for me, it felt like the right time to take a risk. And I had been entrepreneurial in my life. I mean, I had a business in high school and my parents and grandparents were entrepreneurial. So that was in me, even if I didn’t really recognize it, was that I was okay with a good level of risk. And I do say this now to anyone that I’m hoping to partner with is that if you want to bet on yourself, I’ll go all in on you too. But you’ve got to be able to take that jump. I won’t let you fail, but you’ve got to be the one. I think that inertia is what a lot of advisors are like, “Geez, I don’t know, I got to give something up.” And that’s why the data’s important and you have all the data. The clients overwhelmingly go with the advisor. These days it’s just much harder to try to establish a new relationship with a trusted advisor than it is to just DocuSign some forms and move your account somewhere. So to me, it’s just trying to support people, and really push them to the edge and say, “No, this is possible. You should definitely explore this.” And I get it’s totally different, and you might be at a different life stage, but you know the numbers. I mean, tens of thousands of advisors are moving every year and not all of them have a small book like I did when I did it. Louis Diamond: Right, exactly. On one hand, making this entrepreneurial move as early in your career as you did, it was a benefit, right? Because you didn’t have as much to lose, like you said, the stage of life you’re in allowed you to absorb more risk. On the other end of the spectrum, if someone who has a massive business with immense value, they’re well situated financially, maybe their kids are through college, et cetera. And then most people are somewhere in the middle. So it’s interesting hearing that dynamic in real time. Let’s talk about Claro today. So you launched the business, like you said, you had to work hard to meet a minimum custodial threshold. So started from a very small base in 2012, but where is it today as far as assets, team size? Just give us some stats or perspective on what you’ve built in the last decade and a half or so. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, sure. So we enjoyed a tremendous amount of organic growth, Louis. We are not capital-backed. We don’t buy books of businesses, so I would recruit or partner with advisors that were coming from all the various places that you could think of that were finding us to be a very friendly place to work where you had a high level of autonomy, freedom, control, just great economics. We stayed out of people’s ways. We were just good people trying to help other good people, and it was just that friendly environment that allowed us to grow. And of course, we can’t discount market. I think markets had a tremendous growth for everybody in the business. And so the business as it stands right now, we’re about 1.5 billion in assets, 15 to 20 advisors. We got a 40-person team based primarily at a Boston headquarter, but we have advisors all over. And I think as we’ll get to, we’ve just gone through a really exciting new chapter for us where the next 15 years are going to look a lot different than the previous 15 years. Louis Diamond: Very cool. That’s amazing, and I’m in the recruiting businesses and doing recruiting yourself, it’s not easy to tell your story, get in front of the right people, the right like-minded people too, who are willing to take the leap to you, especially if you don’t have the capital backing and you can’t pay big deals or write big checks like others could, so that’s a massive testament to you and your vision. I know the average age of an advisor at Claro is around 40, yet the average advisor in the industry is 59, 60, 61, depending upon what data source you look at. What do you think you figured out about attracting, training, and really cultivating younger advisors that the rest of the industry either gets wrong or ignores? What’s been your hack in that regard? Ryan Belanger: I’ll just take a chance on people that others might not. And typically what that really means is someone with nothing, I’ll make them a deal and I’ll say, “Look, I believe in you. I think you’d be a great advisor. Let’s work on an arrangement where you feel like you can do this and I’ll support you.” And so our specialty was growing advisors from 20 million or 30 million into hundreds of million of client assets. And some of it was just being willing to look where others wouldn’t possibly want to spend their time. But when I was 22, someone took a chance on me, and so I owe it to the next generation to do that as well because there’s some great talent out there that really just isn’t getting the attention they deserve because they don’t have big books of business yet. But one of my core values is long-term thinking, and so that’s the way I frame my decisions is it doesn’t have to be a win today, but it can be a championship tomorrow or down three or five years from now. And so that’s how I’ve positioned it. I think that’s why we tend to get younger advisors. And then what happens when you get a lot of younger advisors, you have some older advisors say, “Hey, look, that’s an attractive bench of talent. I needed a succession plan. You guys seem to have a bunch of guys and gals that know how to do really great work and serve clients.” But I think that’s probably one of the things that I just was willing to take some chances on people at an earlier stage. Louis Diamond: Yep. I love it. I mean, once again, you said in the beginning, you developed an empathy for the emotional side of money and what people were going through that you carry through to this day. So not losing touch with the fact that you started. I mean, everyone starts in this business at some time, but I feel like once you’re successful or you’re through the first few years, you forget what it was like to be a newbie. So keeping that perspective and appreciation for the mentors you had, et cetera, is great. And honestly, from a business building standpoint, to me in this environment, unless you take on private equity capital, or you have capital from a BD or from a wirehouse behind you for recruiting, it’s really hard to win advisors with large books of business. So going in the blue part of the ocean instead of the red ocean, if anyone’s read that book, is very smart, looking under rocks that others don’t or really buying into or leaning into folks that you see something in that you know you can cultivate is a brilliant way. And it’s honestly more scalable, cheaper, you build a better business as well doing it the way that you do, but still, it’s hard. And my guess is the ROI is shorter. I’m sure you’ve made some hires that don’t pan out. So you have to have the tolerance and the demeanor to really invest in people. So long-winded way to say I love what you’re doing. How much of your recruitment of advisors and the retention of that talent as they become successful would you tie to how you compensate them, or equity if that’s available versus the culture of the firm and the mentorship that you and your team provide? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, I mean I’ll speak to what we’re offering now just because that’s more relevant, and so we are positioning ourselves now as the best home for advisors in the country and we really believe that’s the case, but our problem is we’re just a secret. We’ve just come to the market after our deal and all the technology that I know we’ll talk about. So we’re now marketing this message to advisors that want to partner with us. Economics will help them grow. We have a really interesting growth program. We’ll give them equity and Claro. I firmly believe that we should tie each other, just get in the same boat, so to speak. So our success is their success, but allowing them to operate in a 1099 model, which I know is not a popular strategy. I know everyone wants to buy books and own the assets and own the clients, but I feel there’s a tremendous amount of advisors that do not that probably should not be monetizing their businesses so quickly. And so I’m trying to foster a home for those like-minded advisors that want the autonomy to own their clients, maybe even still have a brand, but partner with a firm that’s got really credible technology, just unbelievable back office support and a firm of the future so that they can grow at 10X to what they could have on their own and then they could monetize. That’s what we’ve tried to put together here with our partnership model. Louis Diamond: Love it. Yeah, I mean it is definitely going against the grain a little bit, leaning into growing a 1099 model versus more of an acquisition model where everyone coming over as W-2s. So do you think about those trade-offs when it comes time to raising capital down the line or if you want to sell the business or even just an advisor wants to leave, that would stink if that happened. How do you think about those trade-offs? The ability to let advisors keep control and ownership. And honestly, in my view, probably win many people that you wouldn’t otherwise versus the stickiness, and the enterprise building abilities of owning the books of business. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, it’s a paradox because I understand why you want to own the client, but that’s a different business model. And frankly, I think it attracts different type of people. I had to really look myself in the mirror a couple years ago. We had enjoyed a tremendous amount of success, high growth and all organic, growing at 30% more per year on a CAGR basis. Nothing could stop us. But what happened was when private equity entered the space, everyone wanted to buy Claro. And to me, it didn’t feel like I did a lot of due diligence. I talked to a lot of firms. I didn’t see any differentiation in the market, Louis. To me from a technology perspective, everyone was doing the same thing. They’re using six to 12 different tools. We all know who they are. And now there’s a bunch of AI tools they’re layering on. And to me, it just didn’t feel like that was going to be any… There was no differentiation in the market. But admittedly, I had a couple of friends who I’d brought in at very low levels of AUMB that wanted to leave. And they said, “Look, I want to go to a firm that has more resources.” And so I had to just make a business decision and say, “Where do I want to take this?” And so it was only after some real adversity because you get emotionally attached to these people that you’ve developed friendships with and they still are friends, no doubt, but they can leave and they’re not captive. So we have to plan for that at Claro now, and I think we’ve got two ways that we’ve done that where it really ties the advisors to us, but in a way where they want to be here because we have something that’s really different. Louis Diamond: I like it. I’m sure we’ll get into that. But before we do, we’ll get into what you’re doing on the technology side, which is very cool and unique. How do you balance being an advisor and being a CEO? And what percentage of your time is advisor versus CEO and has that fluctuated or changed over time? Ryan Belanger: Drastically changed in the last year, two years or so. So the first 10, 12 years, I was really an advisor first and foremost. That’s inverse at this point, I’m strictly running the business. I have a great team here that deals with our clients, and I’ll still attend the client meetings and such, but I’m really laser-focused on running the business, trying to develop new partnerships with advisors, running an engineering team, sales and marketing. So the change for me has definitely occurred, and I’ll miss not keeping up with planning as much. I’m a CFP, but I just recognized that for me, I had to make a clear change and commit all my time to running the business, and so that’s the decision that I’ve made. Louis Diamond: It is a hard balance. I mean, there’s some people that try to do both, run a business, be an advisor, be a rainmaker, and something breaks. You’re not able to give all yourself to one thing. Then there’s others that would much prefer to be an advisor over a business owner. Others who say, “I’m over being an advisor. I want to be a business owner.” So I think the cool thing about doing what you’ve done is you get to choose, right? Some of it might be circumstances, but you really got to decide which elements of the business you personally want to invest your time in. And you really push your chips in the middle of the table. So let’s get into what you did in November of 2025. I read that you acquired a tech company of all things called NDVR. I’ve done this podcast for a while, speak to a ton of people. I can’t really think of anyone, any advisor or RIA that’s actually bought a tech company. So what made you puck the trend, buy a tech company and not just license all the FinTech that’s available today? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, that was the decision I had to make was do I really want to be different, or do I want to just say that I’m different? And so I was fortunate enough to get introduced to a gentleman named Michael Simon about 18 months ago, two years ago. And him and I immediately could see that we were both trying to solve the same problem, and we had perfectly mirrored image skills of one another so I had this deep wealth experience and he had a deep tech experience. And sometimes it’s just about timing in life, about catching someone at the right time. And I think we each caught each other at a really good time where we could see that coming together, we could create something really magical. And this AI wave was cresting. And I could see when I was talking to all the national PE firms or RIA firms about what people wanted to do, no one had quite figured out how AI was going to come into the technology mix, and it appears as though it’s just going to be another add-on tool to everything else. And for me, I wanted to try to build something that was integrated an all- in-one platform for an advisor so they didn’t have to use a ton of different tools. And I thought if you could do that, couldn’t you have AI that’s really much more rich and purposeful to help the clients? And so I felt like here’s an opportunity to elevate financial advice throughout the country, really give the clients all the value. And so what we’ve built allows advisors who are really good advisors to become super advisors because they’ve got this technology cape that no one else has that is allowing them to save a bunch of time and do all these really cool things for their clients. But it just felt like right time, right place. I’d been through a little bit of adversity and I felt like taking another swing just like I did 15 years ago going for it. I’ve really never been averse to risk, and so this felt like it was too good to pass up and so we went for it. Louis Diamond: Interesting. So that makes sense on the build or acquire versus rent dynamic, wanting to own the IP that makes you actually different. What does NDVR actually do? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, so everything’s all integrated. So we’ve kept the Claro Advisors name. We feel like clients really want to know that they’re still getting a person to deliver the advice. And so having the advisor’s name in our brand is important, but we have a Claro Intelligent Hub, and that’s where it’s an AI native operating system for the advisors. They spend their entire day in there, Louis. So they’re not toggling between 10 different Chrome tasks to perform all their business. And so what that allows them to do is not only it’s CRM, calendar, contacts, emails, messages, but we also have all the portfolio information. So trading history and we can do tax loss harvesting and factor-based investing. So we’ve got institutional grade portfolio management, and that’s really what Endeavor had created through their R&D was the hyper-personalized portfolios where you have a customer’s financial plan directly tied to their account. So there’s never any de-linking between the two. It’s really sophisticated technology that we can provide to our clients. So that’s all integrated as well. And so we’ve since continued to build the build upon that layer of integrated proprietary technology. Louis Diamond: It’s very interesting. And we have to imagine part of you maybe now or in the future is, okay, we’ve built this amazing technology mousetrap for our advisors, but do we become a FinTech? Is there any thought of eventually licensing what Endeavor is doing for your business and your clients to other RIAs? How do you think about that dynamic of just building something unique and different for Claro that advisors can latch onto versus making what you and your partners have developed into something that someone else can take and license themselves? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, it’s a fair question. We get it a good amount. While there might be a possibility that we license this to some other businesses, our main goal right now is to keep it captive to RIAs that want to partner with Claro. And so we feel like this gives them a true level of differentiation in the market, and so that’s the approach that we’re taking right now. Being a FinTech company, there’s a lot of different skills. The setup and tear down of getting someone to use the platform and I think all that time and resources we want on sales and marketing to try to attract new advisors and continue to develop just jaw-dropping technology for the existing advisors. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Let’s talk a little bit about your partnership model. So it does sound unique in that you have people that are 1099, but you don’t usually also hear partner. So how does it work? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, so we’re offering advisors to come and use Claro as a back office so you can have your own brand if you want or you can just be a Claro advisor. We have both here and you’ll be a 1099 advisor so you’ll still own the business that you’ve owned. So if you were at a wirehouse or something, you would actually now be creating some enterprise value for yourself. But if you’re an existing REA, you’d be coming to us because you’re tired of doing tech vendor due diligence all the time or you’re tired of the compliance, the AI regulations. That’s just coming. So that’s going to be a huge challenge for REAs, so we’re seeing a lot of interest from REAs saying, “Look, you’re not asking me to give up really anything except the stuff that I hate to do anyway, so this sounds great.” So they partner with us. In return, they get all access to our technology And we’ll provide all the back office support, office space, dedicated resources, planning, everything you could want to have to operate a business. We do have a growth program that’s really interesting. And then we’ve got this equity in Claro. As you’re a partner with Claro, you should get equity so we give stock options to our advisors who are here and every year thereafter. And naturally, that’s a way to stay connected with the advisor. So hopefully they never want to leave, and I do believe that once you experience our technology, you never want to go back to trying to do it the way you were doing it before. Louis Diamond: It’s like instead of building the most enclosed box that you keep people in with sticks and with locks and keys like a lot of firms do, it’s we’re going to keep advisors here, but not by force, but because they have the stock options, because you’re delivering value, because they have this amazing technology. To me, that’s the dynamic that so many firms across the industry get wrong is that they try to keep advisors where they are by restrictive covenants and by fear, and by retribution rather than if we just do good work for people, we add value, we make ourselves indispensable to the advisor. To me, it creates a healthier dynamic. I think firms would actually retain more even if it’s a gentler approach. And I love what you’re doing there. I think it’s the exact right way to think about we have advisors that are 1099, so yeah, they could leave us, but we’re doing things that make it that they don’t want to leave us. And that’s your charge as the owner to create the infrastructure and the structure where people could go out on their own, but there isn’t an advantage to do so. Ryan Belanger: Yeah, I think the culture is a big thing for us. And if you have people here that don’t want to be here, that’s a problem. And I think that’s what you see in a lot of the wirehouses. Frankly, they scare people and they don’t. It’s like, oh my God, if I leave. And for us, it’s like personally, life is too short. I want to work with people that want to work with me. I’ve got other things going on in my life and these things are just work things. And so I want to enjoy being in the office every day with people that want to be here. And if you think you’ve found a different place, you should go explore that. It’s really a soft approach. I know it’s not the most popular approach, but that’s just the style that I have. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the trend in your career and in launching Claro was we’re going to do things that aren’t popular, but that work for us, like hiring younger advisors that may not have a book or have a small book, buying a tech company instead of licensing it, being 1099 when you’re recruiting instead of owning books of business. There’s a series of decisions you’ve made as the business owner that they’ve worked out, they’ve paid off, but they’re definitely against the grain. And I very much respect that. Ryan Belanger: I really have never been afraid to be a little different, and so I think typically you find other people that might be interested, but it’s a big pool out there. There’s 300,000 advisors so there’s something for everyone, which is awesome. Louis Diamond: Totally agree. Let’s get back to the AI platform that you’ve built, or that you’re building. Maybe give a real tangible example. If I’m a Claro advisor, how has my life changed now that I’m using this platform versus before? So the old model was I log in, like you said, to 10 different Chrome tabs. I’m meeting with clients, doing planning, et cetera. What is the day in the life? How does it look different from what an advisor’s actually doing today versus before this platform was rolled out? Ryan Belanger: Yeah. All right. I’ll just give you a couple examples. So a client will send you a request and say, “Louis, I need $25,000.” And so a typical advisor would either write a note down, go drop it off at the CSA’s desk, or maybe forward that email to the CSA and then that person would have to input it into their CRM, and they go perform the task. And then the advisor would want to know where things are in that process so that there’s a lot of back and forth. With our system, Claire, our intelligent chief of staff, AI chief of staff, you just forward that task to [email protected]. It recognizes the email address that the client is emailing from, it knows the account number. It talks to our portfolio engineer. It knows which account to raise the cash from because it knows the tax jurisdiction, and otherwise, and it performs the task. And the last push of a button is that CSA just moving money from the custodian. So all along the way, the advisor can check on the task and see where it is in the process. It’s beautifully integrated in the intelligent hub, but you could see how that would save a tremendous amount of time and it’s a better customer experience. The mistakes get limited. So it really allows the advisor to get things done at a much higher level. So we’re raising productivity quite a bit. First of all, she’ll establish your meetings, Claire will. So she’ll schedule them for you. She’ll prep them for you. So we have a button, say prep the meeting because we have all the notes, emails. If you’re texting portfolio data, because she has all that information in about 30 to 45 seconds, she’s going to present to the advisor a really nice meeting summary that, “Hey, here’s the things that we should talk about.” She’s going to surface things that the advisor’s forgotten about because she doesn’t forget things. And so she’s prepped the meeting for you, so you’ve saved a couple hours there. She joins the meeting, she takes all of your notes, stores them in the system. She’ll give you a follow-up email. She knows your writing style, so she’ll know that you like to call this client this, and you send these emails typically at this time. And so she’ll deliver a nice follow-up email instantly for the advisor. They click that button, that’s done. So there’s just a lot of things that where she’s efficiency-wise where on 20, 30 hours a week that we’re saving advisors just on the productivity tools alone, so that’s where we’re seeing advisors seeing a ton of value in this. Louis Diamond: It’s very cool. Ryan Belanger: And then there’s a whole portfolio management capabilities, sweeping idle cash and tax loss harvesting and rebalancing that gets done while advisors are having a cup of coffee. They don’t have to think about these things. It just gets done for them. Louis Diamond: It’s so cool because it’s like I think I can conceptualize or think of building in Claude any one of those functionalities for the most part, but the way that the flow of things works and the journey of it is unique. I think every advisor would be interested in that type of promise of saving that much time. So how do you think now in the future, how do you think about the human advisor interaction, and what the human and the advisor will do versus what can be offloaded to AI? Ryan Belanger: Yeah, certainly a lot of the non-client-facing activity can be unloaded and that’s where advisors spend, according to recent studies, almost 60% of their time non-client-facing. So we’re trying to take all that off of their plates for them. We strongly believe clients still want the message to come from a person that has a level of experience and understands them. But at the same point, I think there’s a growing curiosity about, geez, what could it do for me? And so shouldn’t my advisor know how to use it? And so I think you’re seeing a lot of advisors put their head in the sand and say, “I don’t know. I’m just going to hope people don’t really want to use this and adopt it.” They’re a little bit shortsighted there. Our bet is that clients are going to want an advisor that knows how to use tech, has really sophisticated tech, but it isn’t just another tool layered on top that now my data is in that tool. The reason our system is so beautiful and integrated is because it captures everything in a structured and secure way. So all of the compliance is in there. We whitewash all the PII that’s sensitive information, so we’re not layering another tool on, because it’s integrated, we have an AI governance committee that really takes it seriously. How are we using this information? And so we’ve got an approach and we’ve put guardrails around what it can do and what it can’t do. Might there be a generation, Louis, that wants an AI advisor? I don’t know, that could happen. A twin, a digital twin where you say, “Look, I want to talk to Louis.” It’s 10 o’clock at night. He might be in a different time zone than me. He’s got little kids, but I do have this question. And so we’re iterating ideas on how we can surface that for an advisor to be advisable 24/7 without actually having to be available 24/7. Louis Diamond: Seven. It’s amazing to think about. I mean, obviously you’re deeply in this. You have a front row seat into the power of AI, how it’s transforming your business, doing due diligence on acquiring this technology five years from now, 10 years from now, what does the industry look like as a result of AI? What’s your big bet? Ryan Belanger: A lot of the big firms are going to try to figure out how to layer in tech. It’s going to be very difficult to do that. It’s built on extremely old legacy technology. They’ll be slow. They’ll figure out how to do some things. What we’re already seeing from advisors is the wow factor. Wow, I didn’t know this was even possible, and so I think just given our size and where we are, we have an advantage that we can build things from the ground up very quickly. I mean, what used to take an engineer a couple of months or years can be done in a couple of days or weeks, so things have really sped up in terms of the development. It’s much easier to build it than buy it. And so I think you’ll see a lot of firms trying to do what we’ve done, really build proprietary technology. And I think there’ll be a few winners that are able to do that, but being tech forward and aligned with someone who’s thinking about it, I think is what a lot of advisors are going to want to be. That’s the type of firm people would want to partner with, I think. Louis Diamond: What about the dynamic of, like you said, the digital twin thing is equal parts cool as it is terrifying, how do you see, we’ll say the threat of AI impacting the profession of being a financial advisor? Do you look at it as the entire pie is going to grow because everyone’s more efficient? Or do you look at it as it’s going to take out a lot of the advisor capacity we have because it’s no longer necessary? Where do you fall on that spectrum? Ryan Belanger: So robo-advisors came and went, you remember those. I mean, not that they went, but they never took off the way that it was projected. They’re still great businesses, but the human advisor won that battle. Clients do want an advisor, particularly at the higher end, and so I think at the lower end of the market, you’re going to see some AI solutions where people are perfectly comfortable just talking to someone in AI, and they’ll figure out if there’s a hallucinization or not. But I think there’s definitely going to be a market for it, and so I think it just depends on where the clients are and what level of complexity they have. On the higher end, I do feel like the advisors will continue to have a huge advantage there. But we’re building tools to give optionality to advisors. There might be some advisors who say, “Look, I’ll charge half the fee that I used to charge so you can get my digital twin. And that’s a win-win situation for everybody.” Louis Diamond: Yep, that’s fair. So do you look at your competitive ecosystem now? Not for recruiting advisors, let’s say for winning clients. Do you look at Farther and Savvy and different AI or FinTechs as your competition or do you still look at it as the wirehouses and other traditional RIAs? Ryan Belanger: I mean, Farther and Savvy have done a great job of going after this market. I think we’re not as well known yet as they are. We’ve certainly built out what we think is tremendous technology second to none. There’s a huge market of the IBD space that is just these guys and gals are stuck on these old platforms and things are okay, but they’re not super compelled to switch until maybe they see something like this, and so we have a massive pipeline of advisors and I’ve been recruiting for a long time. I’ve never had a pipeline like this. So I know it feels different to me. People really are interested in this. It’s enough for them to want to see tech demos and come visit us and really understand, okay, this is a firm that is challenging what’s possible and that’s someone that maybe I want to be aligned with, and so I think that there’s a lot of places where we can get the talent. And so for us, it’s just trying to find the right people that we want to partner with for the long term. Louis Diamond: Very cool, I got two more questions for you. It’s pretty remarkable that to get from where you started to now, the recruiting you’ve done, buying a FinTech, integrating it, that you still don’t have private equity investor outside capital. So you think it’s on the roadmap, whether it’s a certain size or you’re looking for personal liquidity where the business will just need it because it’s expensive to operate a FinTech platform and to scale up and to keep growing the firm. Do you think there’s a world in which you take on external capital to fuel your growth? Ryan Belanger: Most certainly. I mean, things have developed for us very quickly here, and outside capital and venture particular is a space that we’re actively in discussions with firms that believe in our vision, understand the value that we can create, and there’s just no doubt that you have to have some wind at your back to get to the market, and so while we’re not a household name right now, I’m confident in two years we will be, and our plan is to grow to hundreds and thousands of advisors across the country. Louis Diamond: Wow, big vision, but I love it. Last question for you. If you were 30 years old again, which I think everyone would kill for that opportunity, leaving Morgan Stanley today instead of in 2012, what do you think you would do differently knowing what you know now? Ryan Belanger: At that point, interest rates were near zero, Louis. Valuations you remember were two to three times revenue. It felt expensive then. Obviously things have changed quite a bit. So I would’ve begged, borrowed, and stole all the money I could from friends and family and said, “I need to buy as many businesses as I could at two times, three times revenue and pay, I don’t know, 3% loan.” Just in hindsight, that’s what everyone should have done. That’s not the path that we chose, but I think there’s a huge opportunity in front of us to elevate financial advice across the country, make really good advisors even better by putting that super cape on them. And so we’re very excited about the future, what we’ve got in store, and what we’re going to deliver to the market. And it seems like just yesterday that I walked out of Morgan Stanley with very little assets and tried to start this RIA, but I’m very thankful for all the people that have been supporting me throughout this journey. Louis Diamond: Amazing. And that’s a great spot to end, but let me ask the inverse of that question. Let’s say you leave in 2026, so leave today, you’re 30 years old, but you have the benefit of hindsight. You know what you know now. What would you do differently around the transition or building the firm other than of course be amazing if you can buy businesses for a fraction of what they cost today? Ryan Belanger: I would want to make sure that I’ve got an integrated solution. I don’t want to be picking a bunch of different vendor tools. I know that’s going to become way too time-consuming for me. So I would really try to figure out how you can get something that’s integrated that can scale, but I wouldn’t change anything about the people. I think you got to be able to connect with people that are like-minded and you still take the risk. What I can’t believe, Louis, is that people that sit at the wirehouses take a home team discount and they’re so fearful of leaving Morgan Stanley or Merrill Lynch or UBS, but why are they taking that? The market says you should be paid double what you paid. And it’s not just like that’s 20, 30 years of data here that show that. And so I just would keep pushing people to bet on yourself. Your clients will come with you. Yes, that firm that you love will be the first ones to try to steal your clients. They’re going to call them, and that’s one way, loyalty. Another thing I don’t understand, but that’s the way the business is structured. I think there’s a huge opportunity to just educate advisors about what’s out there and I would take the risk. Louis Diamond: Love it. Ryan, this has been very fun. What you’ve accomplished, like I said earlier, gone against the grain at every turn. Leaving on the younger side without a huge business, buying and integrating a technology company, recruiting younger advisors without books of business. Every single thing you’ve done has been a different playbook. So I’m pumped to watch how we make Claro a household name and how this approach is going to pay off in spade. So I appreciate hearing this different perspective, and I know our listeners did as well, so much appreciated today. Ryan Belanger: Well, thanks for having me on. I know it’s a long time coming. Thanks for your patience. I wanted to make sure we had something really exciting to talk about when we finally did this, and hopefully I can come back in a couple years and catch up. And congratulations on everything you guys have built. You guys are just a premier name out there, and it’s been fun to watch your success as well. Louis Diamond: Thank you, Ryan, I appreciate it. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

With Josh Tomolak, Vice President of Independent Advisor Services, Diamond Consultants Louis Diamond and Josh Tomolak unpack today’s IBD vs. RIA landscape, explaining what has changed, where each model excels, and how to determine which path best supports the business you want to build. In Summary The independent wealth management landscape has changed dramatically, making the decision between an independent broker dealer (IBD) and an RIA more nuanced than ever before. Louis Diamond welcomes Diamond Consultants’ Vice President of Independent Advisor Services, Josh Tomolak, for a practical discussion of how the independent space has evolved, what truly differentiates the IBD and RIA models today, and how advisors can evaluate which path best aligns with the business they want to build. The Storyline Not long ago, the decision to become independent was relatively straightforward. Advisors either remained with a traditional firm or pursued independence through one of a limited number of models. Today, the conversation is far more complex. Independent broker dealers have significantly expanded their capabilities, offering stronger technology, larger transition packages, greater flexibility, and even pathways to RIA ownership. At the same time, the RIA ecosystem has matured into a sophisticated marketplace supported by multiple custodians, outsourced service providers, institutional capital, and enterprise platforms that rival many of the industry’s largest firms. As these developments have unfolded, the traditional distinctions between an IBD and an RIA have become less obvious. Advisors evaluating their options are no longer simply asking whether they should become independent—they’re asking which model best supports the clients they serve, the business they envision, and the lifestyle they want to create. In this Industry Update, Louis and Josh unpack the realities behind the IBD vs. RIA decision. They discuss where the two models overlap, where meaningful differences still exist, and why factors like service, technology, economics, operational responsibility, enterprise value, and long-term optionality often matter more than labels alone. Whether you’re considering changing independent firms, launching your own RIA, or simply want a better understanding of how the independent landscape has evolved, this conversation provides an objective framework for evaluating today’s choices—and preparing for tomorrow’s opportunities. Topics Covered Independent Broker Dealer (IBD) vs. RIA models The evolution of supportive independence Technology investments across the independent space Transition support and advisor mobility Capital solutions and recruiting economics Business formation and enterprise value Launching an independent RIA Multi-custodial platforms and open architecture Minority investments and succession planning Future trends shaping advisor independence > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why are already-independent advisors reconsidering their current model? (5:27) Josh explains why service, technology, economics, and growing optionality are causing advisors to reevaluate their existing affiliations. How have independent broker dealers and RIAs become more alike? (19:28) Louis and Josh discuss the growing convergence between the two models and why the distinction is becoming less obvious than many advisors assume. What really separates an IBD from an RIA? (25:04) A practical discussion of autonomy, compliance, flexibility, custody, economics, and advisor experience. What misconceptions keep advisors from launching an RIA? (36:29) Josh outlines the “Four Pillars” of launching an RIA and explains where advisors tend to either overestimate or underestimate the operational realities. Which advisors thrive most in each model? (33:12) The conversation explores why there isn’t a universally “better” model—only one that’s better aligned with an advisor’s goals. What trends are quietly reshaping independence? (42:13) Minority investments, enterprise value, business formation, and changing revenue models may have an even greater impact than advisors realize today. Key Takeaways Independence has evolved from a destination into an ongoing strategic decision. Independent broker dealers have significantly improved technology, transition support, economics, and flexibility. The RIA ecosystem has matured into a highly sophisticated marketplace with broad outsourcing and support options. Choosing between an IBD and an RIA should begin with long-term business objectives—not industry perceptions. Building a valuable business depends more on business structure and scalability than simply growing assets. Advisors considering independence should evaluate models with an open mind rather than relying on outdated assumptions. The next decade will likely bring continued convergence between independent business models. https://youtu.be/jHDVso2TsmQ Quotable Moments “The question is no longer, ‘Do I want to go independent?’ The question is, ‘What kind of independence makes the most sense for my clients, business, and goals?’” “Business formation is far more important than assets under management.” “The way you build your business will ultimately determine how valuable that business becomes.” “Everything in an RIA is going to cost you either your time or your money.” FAQs Is there still a meaningful difference between an IBD and an RIA? Yes. While the two models increasingly overlap, they differ in areas such as flexibility, compliance structure, operational responsibility, economics, and control. Why are more independent advisors changing firms today? Improved technology, stronger transition support, evolving economics, and better service models are prompting many advisors to reassess whether their current platform still fits their business. Is launching an RIA easier than it used to be? Yes. Supportive independence, outsourced service providers, and improved custodial resources have significantly reduced many of the historical barriers. Does every entrepreneurial advisor belong in the RIA model? No. The best fit depends on an advisor’s appetite for ownership, customization, operational responsibility, and long-term vision. What matters more: assets under management or how the business is built? Josh argues that scalable business formation often has a greater impact on enterprise value than AUM alone. What’s the biggest mistake advisors make when evaluating independence? Starting with assumptions instead of objectives. The most effective due diligence begins by defining the business you’re trying to build, then identifying the model best suited to support it. Yes. While the two models increasingly overlap, they differ in areas such as flexibility, compliance structure, operational responsibility, economics, and control. Improved technology, stronger transition support, evolving economics, and better service models are prompting many advisors to reassess whether their current platform still fits their business. Yes. Supportive independence, outsourced service providers, and improved custodial resources have significantly reduced many of the historical barriers. No. The best fit depends on an advisor’s appetite for ownership, customization, operational responsibility, and long-term vision. Josh argues that scalable business formation often has a greater impact on enterprise value than AUM alone. Starting with assumptions instead of objectives. The most effective due diligence begins by defining the business you’re trying to build, then identifying the model best suited to support it. Related Resources IBD vs. RIA Comparison Guide IBD vs. RIA Revisited: Two Independent Pathways for Advisors to Consider NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… IBD vs. RIA: A Special Industry Update on Independence A conversation with Louis Diamond and Josh Tomolak, Vice President of Independent Advisor Services at Diamond Consultants.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is IBD vs. RIA: A Special Industry Update on Independence. It’s a conversation with Josh Tomolak, our Vice President of Independent Advisor Services. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: For a long time, going independent would suggest the destination. Today, it’s often the beginning of a different conversation. As the independent space has matured, advisors have more choices than ever before. Broker-dealers have expanded their capabilities. The RIA ecosystem has become increasingly sophisticated. Capital is more readily available and support models now exist that would’ve been difficult to imagine a decade ago. The result is that many advisors who are already independent are taking a fresh look at whether their current affiliation still aligns with what they’re trying to build. My guest is Josh Tomolak, Vice President of Independent Advisor Services here at Diamond Consultants and our resident expert on independence. Josh spends his days helping advisors evaluate independence in all its forms from independent broker dealers, the fully independent RIAs and everything in between. And his knowledge is critical because the distinction between these models is often blurred. Many broker dealers now offer pathways to greater autonomy while supported independence has made RIA ownership more accessible than ever before. So the question is no longer simply, “Do I want to go independent?” The question is, “What kind of independence makes the most sense for client, business, and goals?” Josh shares what he’s seeing across the landscape, the misconceptions that continue to shape advisor thinking and the factors that matter most when evaluating the next chapter of an independent business. There’s a lot to discuss, so let’s get to it. Josh, thanks for joining me today. Joshua Tomolak: Thanks for having me, Louis. It’s a real privilege to have come. This is a full circle moment for me going from being a student of your podcast, to working alongside you, to being a guest. So I appreciate you having me. Louis Diamond: Amazing. I’m excited for this one too, because you have a fresh and in the weeds perspective that a lot of our guests simply don’t have. So why don’t you start off, you spend your time helping advisors evaluate independence every day. So working with advisors who are already independent, for the most part. And to me, it feels like the independent space has really evolved dramatically over the last decade. I mean, this podcast is really the epicenter of that to prove that out, but give us a little background on your past roles in the space and then we can get into what you’re seeing right now. Joshua Tomolak: Yeah, I’d be happy to. So I took a very non-traditional path into wealth management. I spent a decade as a deep sea Navy diver, and upon completing my service there, I ended up working for TD Ameritrade. And in my role there, I spent about six years doing nothing but helping financial advisors explore the RIA space, whether that was to join or partner with an RIA, sell to an RIA, or in most cases, launch their own RIA. And one of the things that I ultimately came to terms with is it’s just not the right model for everybody. While I’m a huge advocate for it, we would often lose business to the major broker-dealers of the world. And at the time, I really didn’t understand why. In the last six years at Diamond Consultants has been a very interesting purview into what a lot of the broker-dealers have done and are doing to make themselves more RIA-ish and be very compelling to the right advisor. Louis Diamond: Perfect framing. Your background is incredibly germane to the folks you work with. So let’s start off with the softball here. What are you seeing right now? Joshua Tomolak: It’s not so different than the rest of the industry, the wirehouses, the regional firms, things of that nature, that if you took 10 firms, they’re all likely to go different directions, even if they were identical practices. That could be… A third would go from an independent broker-dealer to another independent broker-dealer. Certainly the supported RIA space is growing every day and has created a lot of very fun and unique solutions for advisors, very customized and curated. And then I think there’s still a lot of really great sophisticated teams and individual contributors that are making the decision to go hyper entrepreneurial and launch their own individual RIA. So the movement’s really all over the board from my perspective. Louis Diamond: It does feel like it’s no longer independence is an alternative option or it’s on the fringes. It’s very front and center whether for breakaways, which is a big topic on our podcast, but in general, the infrastructure has become much, much more sophisticated today than ever before. Advisors have way more tools in their toolbox to serve clients, whether in the private markets or through technology. And it’s no longer that if an advisor’s independent, they’re in the minor leagues where they don’t have the same ability to serve clients like they did if they’re at a big bank or a private bank or a wirehouse. Do you agree? Joshua Tomolak: I absolutely agree. And I’m reminded of a question I got one time from a great team that I worked with in New York. They asked me, “Are there really more options than ever before? Because all we see is one firm selling to another.” And I think that’s a really great point. There’s far less broker dealers on the street than there were even five years ago. But for every Commonwealth, for example, that sells to an LPL, up pops three or four really cool private equity-backed, sophisticated RIA platform firms that are built to service their own unique advisor base. Louis Diamond: I think that’s right. Sitting on the sidelines, sitting on top of everything going on in the industry, I feel like capital is always an interesting topic forever. If an advisor wanted to move within the independent world or break away from a big firm to go independent, the only way to get capital was to go to an independent broker dealer. So we still see that, but I feel like today between all these minority acquisition opportunities, we’re seeing firms acquire practices at time of transition, which is somewhat new. There’s debt solutions, recruiting deals are way up for firms that are paying forgivable loans. RIAs now would, in some cases, will pay a forgivable note. What are you seeing there as far as the availability of capital and just deals in general? Joshua Tomolak: It’s a great question and I didn’t want to take the low-hanging fruit, but capital’s been a huge innovation, I guess, in the last five years I’d say. Just to give you rough quotes, please don’t hold me to it, but traditional transition broker-dealer deals were five years ago, 40 to 60% of Trailing Twelve revenue today are somewhere between 90 and 120%, sometimes north of that for the right team. That’s really meaningful money for the team that is thinking about foregoing a wirehouse deal, for example. I’d also say a lot of these firms are getting hyper-creative in how they solve for capital. The minority investment piece that you mentioned is very interesting. We’re seeing a lot of privatized forgivable notes in the RIA space where third-party or private lenders are basically lending the money and the RIA is making the payments on that forgivable note as long as the advisor is affiliated with them. So there’s been a recognition among the RIA space to get away from the, “Oh, they just took a check” type of mantra, and to say, “Look, I understand there are capital needs. These people are taking a risk. We need to solve for that.” So we’ve seen a lot of that in the marketplace. Louis Diamond: Very interesting. I think another thing financially, and then we’ll keep the train moving, that I know I’ve seen, and maybe you can weigh in if you’ve seen the same, is the cost to an advisor or a business owner to join an independent BD or to join an RIA has come way down, probably in part because of Schwab going to zero on trading. That’s been a catalyst. But it feels like we used to say independent BDs were expensive relative to the RIA world. And in some cases, they certainly could be. And if you’re at scale, maybe you can pick up a point or two being in the RIA world versus a BD. But when you have some of these BDs that have a basis point admin fee or no admin fee at a certain size and the payouts I feel like are similar, maybe have gone up a little bit, but it’s more so like the administrator fees, the platform fees, the program fees. Anyone who’s not in that world, it’s like, “What are you talking about?” But basically the way that these broker-dealers make money, it seems like there’s been a pretty big differential in the exchange of value where advisors now get more services, better technology, get more money to join them and get it at a lower cost. Do you agree? Joshua Tomolak: I absolutely agree. I think that maybe that’s one of the larger changes that we’ve seen, and it’s probably one of the benefits from a lot of the industry consolidation on that independent broker-dealer side. The economies of scale of these folks have allowed them to increase their tech spend, increase their service capacities all while offering it to the advisors at a cheaper price. And when I was at TD Ameritrade, one of the biggest pitches was the idea of a 100% payout and you control the fixed expenses, your technology compliance, et cetera. But what’s changed is that broker-dealers are pretty darn comparable on the expenses. All of those admin fees and things you mentioned will still exist, but they’re on a much smaller scale. And I think the question a lot of advisors are asking is, “Am I getting congruent value from my broker-dealer for what I pay for?” And while that answer might’ve been no a couple years ago, today the answer is more often yes. Louis Diamond: Yeah, I would agree. A lot of times we work with advisors who are starting an RIA or affiliating with an RIA or going to a BD and they see how big the deals are in the independent BD world and the payouts are really high and the fees are relatively low. And honestly, it is a hard decision or calculus to make, like, “How does it make sense for me to turn down this extremely lucrative deal when my ongoing economics are going to be somewhat similar in the BD world versus in the RIA space?” I think it’s just an interesting dynamic and we’ll get more into that distinction. One of the stars of the show right here is we’ve seen a ton of advisor movement across the industry. Our annual advisor transition report said that in 2025, over 11,000 experienced advisors changed firms, which is a large number. A lot of those numbers are within the independent world. So advisors who are 1099 through a BD or through an RIA transitioning to another platform or organization or starting an RIA. So why do you think we’re seeing so many advisors reconsider their current firm or their platform or their broker-dealer today than in years past? Joshua Tomolak: It’s a jarring number. 11,000 is definitely a significant amount of advisor movements. To me, it comes down to a few things, but I will say that it’s almost always a conglomeration of pushes and pulls. Pushes being inherent frustrations with your status quo, pulls being the new sexy, shiny things that you see in the marketplace that could be really impactful for your business. To me, it typically comes down to one of three things, at least on the push front, that drives advisors to movement. Service being number one, technology being number two, and economics being number three. And if we were just going to unpack those, I think service being, “Can you call somebody that knows your business, that knows your name? Are you getting the correct answers? Are you being pushed through a phone tree? And even if you’re not doing it, is it taking up a meaningful amount of time of your staff’s free time?” On the technology front, there’s very significant tech spends happening in the industry right now. I think Raymond James and LPL reported, for example, they spent 500 million in 2025 on a tech spend. So advisors are going to the places that are making their life easier. People are looking for a mechanism to really scale their business without having to add staff and a lot of expenses to the bottom line. And technology is just the fastest, most efficient way to do that most times. And then economics, certainly a lot of advisors and teams have built phenomenal businesses and they’ve made a great living without really stressing out about the economics. And they eventually get to a point in their business where what they were giving up as a million dollar producer is far different than what they’re giving up as a $4 million producer. And back to the congruent value, it perhaps stops to make as much sense. Louis Diamond: Well said. I always say when the cost-to-value ratio is out of whack, that’s when advisors sit up and take notice. And not to name names of firms, but there definitely are firms that are more expensive. And even if you look at how much a wirehouse or a Ed Jones advisor paid their firm, it’s like, “What got me here is not necessarily what’s going to get me there.” And while the name on the business card, the resources were incredibly impactful, and I’m so grateful for what my firm, my broker-dealer did for me when I was just starting or when I was smaller. Now the business is bigger, I rely upon different resources or I don’t need the firm as much. So I’d rather plow the cost savings either into income for myself or invest it in areas that are most germane to my business. And it’s usually when that kind of light bulb moment goes off, that’s one of the major pushes that cause advisors to evaluate other options. So I agree with you, those are the major push factors, but then what are the pull factors? What are the major advancements or changes across the independent space that’s causing advisors to say, “Hey, okay, I might have some frustrations, but at the same time, I also need to find something that’s more than marginally better than the firm I’m at. Otherwise, why am I going to go through the hassle, take the risk, et cetera? So what are some of the pull factors that advisors are latching onto today? Joshua Tomolak: Sure. And I might say with one final push factor, there’s a straw that breaks the proverbial camel’s back when you’ve been told for however many years that this change or that change is coming down the pipeline and it never happens. And it translates well into the pull factors is do they do what they say they’re going to do? The talking points really for the pull factors are exactly the same. So the counterpoint to service is perhaps having a direct relationship with the chief compliance officer at a firm or having a dedicated service representative that knows their stuff inside and out and can get you the answer even if they don’t know it off the top of their head. Having the technology to rebalance a household in two clicks instead of two hours. In economics, I think it’s really a transparency of economics. We’ve both worked with some really significant firms that have looked at their P&Ls and said, “where the heck is the money going?” And we’ve looked at the same P&Ls and said, “I have no idea,” because it’s so convoluted. People are happy to pay for good service, good technology, good products, but they just want to know where the money’s coming from. So I think it’s a yin and yang. The same things that they’re the push are often the pull. Louis Diamond: Definitely. I’ll give you a couple other from my perspective. I’ll say first specific to the independent BD world, and then we’ll dive into the RIA, I think it’s a little bit different. But I think some other will say innovations or changes that are causing advisors to really perk up and listen and really make the case to themselves that life will be better at this new organization than the status quo or staying put. We’ve seen major advancements in transition support, whether it’s being able to do a transition without a shred of paper, being able to… I mean, we’ve seen some independent advisors move their entire book within two weeks, which never would’ve happened before. So the firms that I’d say are playing offense, the larger firms that are winning, they have insane headcount around transitions and are always investing in technology, whether now on the AI front or in general. And we’ve seen transitions, they’re never easy. So that’s not a comment to say it’s easy, but a lot of the friction, a lot of the manual work has been taken away, which is massive. You definitely mentioned the significant technology spend. I mean, just the innovations going on across the industry. There’s definitely some firms that are laggards on technology and others that are light years ahead, whether because their tech is more integrated or they’ve built out their platform to be more, we’ll say modular, to plug in different third-party softwares where an advisor can really customize and create their own tech stack. I think there’s been some changes on compliance. It used to be if you’re at an independent BD, you had to be the OSJ by yourself or you had to roll up under an OSJ. But now most BDs offer home office supervision, so a big friction or pain point is taken away. And then I’ll give you a bridge to talk about what we’re seeing on the RIA side. But we’ve also seen, I would say, a real blurring of the lines between what you would traditionally think of as an independent broker dealer versus what was an RIA. So whether it’s an internal pathway where it’s like, “Start off on our independent BD platform, get the big deal, get the support, but then you can ditch that and just use this as a custodian or you can sell the business to us when you want to retire and convert to W2.” So in that vein, transitioning internally to an RIA, give me the same points like, “What are the major advancements or changes you’re seeing on the RIA side today?” Joshua Tomolak: I love that you said that because it’s been one of the most interesting changes to watch. Independent broker dealers becoming more like RIAs, and to your point, being more flexible, having more optionality, a more curated experience in some cases. And in many cases becoming closer to independent broker dealers with some of these massive shops that we’ve seen be created over the last five years that now have hundreds, if not thousands of advisors. To your question on the internal RIA slide as we sometimes call it, this really didn’t exist many places a few years ago. And I think it’s been created as both originally a retention tool in many places for the advisors that were with a major independent broker dealer and they ultimately wanted to have their own ADV and their own RIA. And the firm didn’t want to lose all the assets to an independent custodian so they gave them the green light to… And it’s ultimately became a sales tool in many cases. Just to use a couple of examples across the industry, I mean, Raymond James has Raymond James Custody Services, which has attracted a lot of really sophisticated teams. I know Wells Fargo Finance done something similar and even the counterparts over at Cetera and Osaic are trying to do the same thing. So it’s a recognition in my view that we want to keep the best talent possible. And if these folks are ultimately going to go RIA anyway, it’s less about the money and more about the flexibility and control that it offers them. So what can we do to keep those folks on board? And rightfully so, a lot of senior management of these firms have said, “Let’s not lose these teams. It’s going to be a lower margin business for us, but at the rate that they’re growing, it’s going to pay off in the long run.” Louis Diamond: Well said. RIAs are now more mainstream. And some of these RIAs, they’re either resembling independent BDs or I would even go so far to say the valuations that are even publicly available on some RIAs is definitely having people take notice. I mean, Cerity Partners recently raised capital at an over $8 billion reported valuation. Crescent was well over a billion. Firms like Mariner, Creative Planning, Mercer, Wealth Enhancement Group, and there’s many that I’m missing, are all worth a couple billion dollars or more and growing. Do you think that’s had an impact on the legitimacy or the staying power of the RIA model? Joshua Tomolak: Oh, absolutely. There’s no doubt about it. I mean, those groups that you mentioned and many more are winning some of the biggest teams on the street. I mean, if you pull up a run-of-the-mill advisor hub article, for example, you’ll see as many of those RIAs win significant businesses as you will their broker-dealer counterparts, partially in my opinion, due to the massive valuations these firms are fetching. And it’s much more of a partnership in the sense that joining a Crescent or a Wealth Enhancement Group, as you mentioned, you’re a part of a boutique group of maybe a couple of hundred very sophisticated high-producing advisors all playing under the same banner, all rowing in the same direction, and that creates substantial growth. Louis Diamond: Exactly right. I think two other things to me that’s driving the legitimacy or the growth of the RIA segment, there’s so many different outsourcing solutions that have popped up, whether it’s more of a… We’ll say a bundled or a package outsourcing solution through firms like Dynasty and Sanctuary. LPL has done a ton with having a shared services outsourcing model. So you have those. But you also have, I mean, probably 10 different firms I could think of that can be an outsourced chief compliance officer. You have tons of marketing agencies that specialize in helping RIAs. You have all these FinTechs popping up to support the RIA space. Really, it’s like anything and everything can be outsourced now. And even the big Wall Street banks like UBS, Merrill, et cetera, they’re attempting to sell and distribute product into the RIA space. Venture funds, private equity funds, anyone you talk to is trying to get a piece of the RIA space, which means there’s more product and platform availability than ever before. And I think it’s massive because one, it’s a catalyst for teams who say, “I love everything about the RIA world. I just don’t want to do it on my own,” or, “I don’t know where to start.” But also it means that they can look their clients in the eye and say, “Hey, not only do I have the same stuff that I had for you at XYZ firm, I can actually do more for you.” And even if you look at what the custodians are doing on the lending side now, Schwab owning a bank is massive and being able to facilitate mortgages, securities-backed loans, things that didn’t really exist in the past. I think it’s a very exciting time for advisors either that are independent or are considering the independent space because you have all these choices and it’s really like, “Choose your own adventure. Give me your top five things you want.” I’m sure it exists and we can find it and make it happen. And I don’t think we’d have the same confidence in that statement 5, 7, 10 years ago. Joshua Tomolak: I couldn’t agree more. That’s such a huge development is the marketplace of third party vendors in any kind of capitalism environment. There’s problems that people encounter and there’s really smart people that are trying to make a lot of money that go to market to solve them. And we’ve seen a ton of that over the last few years. Louis Diamond: Exactly right. Yeah, it’s like also… If an advisor looks around and says, “Hey, this is what I want,” and it doesn’t exist, oftentimes that’s a light bulb moment to be like, “Okay, I’ll go build it. I’ll do it on my own.” Whether it was Stewart Partners when they launched a number of years ago or Hightower, Dynasty, et cetera. They were all started by people that said, “Hey, I see a big gap in the ecosystem. Let’s create a business and raise capital to go solve it and then deliver this service to other like-minded advisors or business owners.” Honestly, it’s a treat to be able to watch all this happen in real time. We probably should have laid the groundwork with this next question, but I think it’s an important one. What’s the difference between a independent broker-dealer and an RIA? Really basic foundational. It sounds like the lines are blurred. There’s probably a lot of similarities. Advisors are successful in both. It’s not like one’s better than the other. How would you explain the differences, if a client of ours asked, “What’s the difference between an independent broker-dealer and IBD versus an RIA”? Joshua Tomolak: Get into the core of it. Again, the lines are blurred, and I’ll stay very high level on the strategic differences, but I like to use this example. I drive a Toyota Tundra. Really like the truck, gets me from A to B. Now, if I were getting to a point where I wanted a new vehicle, if I were to go get another Toyota Tundra because I really like a lot of aspects of it, but I want the one with the bigger screen and the bigger tires and the power seats, and I have rolled down windows because I have a fear of drowning. But if I want a lot of the bells and whistles, but I want to keep the foundation, that’s what I align to a independent broker-dealer to independent broker-dealer. You like the foundation of everything all under one roof. You like a lot of the resources, but you have some meaningful frustrations and you want to see if another provider in the market can solve for those or you can upgrade. If I instead, Louis, decided that I wanted a sports car or a Jeep Wrangler or something, I would be looking at a different category altogether. That’s how I articulate the platform space. They provide the same services and support in many cases that an independent broker-dealer does, think of marketing and a tech stack and regulatory oversight and a fellowship in a community, but they’re built on an RIA TC registered chassis. They’re typically far more customized so you can shop the street to get a lot more of the things that you like, though you are walking away from maybe some of the things that you’ve liked in the independent broker-dealer model. So I guess that’s the highest level I might explain it, just a little bit more minutia in any broker-dealer is going to be a FINRA registered, FINRA member broker-dealer. So they’re subject to the FINRA rules, which basically means it’s the compliance interpretation of those rules that they have to follow. So LPL’s rules may be slightly different than Cetera’s than Ameriprise’s because it’s based on their interpretations of the rules. In the RIA space, everybody really operates on the fiduciary standard. So it’s just a different lens that from a compliance standpoint, business is looked at. And a lot of people would make the argument that it’s just easier to get things done when you’re looking at something from that lens. I might’ve gone too compliance nerd on you there, but I’d be curious what you think some of the major differences are. Louis Diamond: Yeah, I think that’s right. I mean, it sounds like if you’re in the RIA world in some capacity that you as the advisor or business owner are going to have a little bit more control and autonomy and flexibility. One, do you think that’s true? And what are the reasons why that is? Is it platform? Is it strictly just compliance is easier? What are the different ways that an RIA would have more or less flexibility than someone who’s with an independent BD? Joshua Tomolak: Yeah, I think it’s overwhelmingly true, but it certainly depends on your business. Within most RIA platforms, you’re going to be one of a couple dozen, maybe a couple hundred, where you’re going to have people within that firm that really know your business. So the experience in getting things done is much less about, “Can I do this,” or, “Can I not do this?” And it’s, “Louis, I understand you asked for this. We’re going to run into these issues, but let’s figure out how to get to yes.” So it’s far more curated by people that are not operating on black and white rules and can actually figure out how to get to yes for your business. The other thing I would say is that most significant RIA platforms have multiple custodial options. So many times you’ll see as few as two or as many as five. So if an advisor or a team is trying to bring on a new piece of business or do something creative, that might be something they can use a different custodial relationship to accomplish. It might be something that Goldman Sachs does really well but is in its infancy at Fidelity, or it might be international business that’s approved on Pershing’s platform but not Schwab’s platform. So the RIA partner that you’re with can really look at those custodians agnostically and say, “What’s the best home for this business? What’s the best way to get this done for Louis?” There’s a couple examples of where I see the flexibility in practice. Louis Diamond: Yeah, I think one more too would be the concept of being able to shop the street. I’ve heard it described as becoming a buy-side advocate for your clients versus being a professional seller. So meaning, if I’m affiliated with an RIA or I’m operating my own RIA, there’s no selling away like there is at a wirehouse or at certain BDs. So if I have a client who’s trying to get a $10 million loan for a new building that they’re breaking ground on, if I’m at UBS, Merrill, Morgan Stanley, captive to a BD, I can go to my firm and say, “Hey, this $10 million loan, here it is. What are the terms? What are the rates? Will you take on this business?” And the firm will say, “Yes. No. Yes, here are the terms. Here’s the caveats, et cetera.” But it’s a very closed market process and an advisor has to live and die by what their firm says. Versus in the RIA world, it’s, “Okay, I have relationships with nine different banks and I can go to these different banks and private credit funds and whoever and really create either an option process for my client or really just help them in a fully agnostic open way.” And we see the same thing when it comes to alternative investments. No one at a wirehouse, let’s say, is complaining that they don’t have enough alts that they can offer clients. Those firms have done an amazing job with really boiling the ocean and having tons and tons of options for private investments, hedge funds, et cetera. But if you’re in the RIA world, you can take it to the next level and say, “Hey, this $3 million startup company that my friend is starting, I’m going to help them raise capital,” or, “My client wants to get a syndicate of investors together to have a direct investment into a qualified opportunity zone fund that they’re starting. Let’s do it when we can advise on it.” So it really expands what an advisor is able to do on behalf of clients. Like to me, that’s the most interesting or exciting part of the RIA model. You can get some of that within the BD world, but to me, when an advisor’s business becomes more sophisticated as far as what their end client’s needs are, it tends to translate better to the RIA world than the BD world. Not to say there aren’t ultra-high net worth focused advisors at BDs, but because of that additional flexibility, autonomy, customization, et cetera, that speaks more RIA. So again, absolutely not down at all on the independent BDs because I think there’s a massive home for them. Josh, let me turn it back to you. I’m rambling now. Give me the pitch for an independent BD. What are the things that are misperceptions that people have? What are the advantages that an independent broker dealer like an LPL or a RayJ or a Cetera have over RIAs or over other models in general? Joshua Tomolak: Absolutely. And I’d say I’ve learned more over the last six years from some of your ramblings than most people learn in an MBA course, so keep doing what you’re doing. But it’s funny being in this position now, having spent so much time sort of selling against the IBD model within TD Ameritrade, but what I’ve learned is it’s a good home for everybody. And a lot of times the advisors that they’re entrepreneurial enough where they like having their name on the door, but they’re not so entrepreneurial where they want to build everything out themselves, that’s where the independent broker dealers absolutely kill it. Their economics have gotten to a point where they’re really competitive. They offer transition capital that isn’t even going to be comparable in the RIA space unless you’re selling a minority share of your business. And you mentioned LPL, or we could really list all of the major ones, there’s not a department that they don’t have. It could be as nuance as finding 403(b) payroll slots or it could be as mainstream as fixed income or setting up events. There are all kinds of really neat departments that these all under one roof independent broker dealers have invested in. And a lot of times they make an effort to make you very much aware of all of the support because most people don’t use it. So I would say for the advisors that are looking to get their improved Toyota Tundra, then you can get probably 70 or 80% of what you want within the independent broker-dealer world. And you can also keep 20 or 30% of the stuff, maybe more that you really liked at your previous firm. So I think that’s where it really shines. I sometimes call it an incremental change rather than a transformational change. But for many advisors, incremental is really good enough if you get to keep the familiarity of how you’ve been doing business for the last 20-some years, but you’re able to get net improvement on the things that were really bothering you. Louis Diamond: Well said. Something that I’ve seen that’s been… I guess this could be either pro or con depending upon the advisor, but with some broker dealers, letting an advisor co-brand with them or really having a real consumer-facing brand, whether it’s, “I’m a franchise owner with Ameriprise,” or, “I’m independent through Raymond James,” or, “Running my own practice through Wells Fargo FiNet,” or, “I’m independent with Northwestern Mutual.” There’s definitely some brand cache or brand familiarity with some of those firms that may or may not be the same if you’re in the RIA world. So I would agree there’s a lot to like about the independent BD world and there’s a fit for people that is absolutely better with independent BDs than on the RIA side. Even if some people would say RIA is better, we’re cleaner, I wouldn’t say that. To me, it’s all about what an advisor’s goals are and then matching that up with what these firms do. And there’s never a perfect option. I jokingly say, “If there was a perfect firm, we wouldn’t be in business.” Every firm has their advantages or disadvantages. And depending upon where an advisor’s coming from, their style of business, their pain points, that’ll match up really well with on firm or one type of firm or one model than the other. Let’s pivot a little bit to the RIA world. A lot of your comments have been more about advisors affiliating or joining RIAs, this whole supportive version of independence concept. But what about advisors who want to go and start their own RIA? Either they’re leaving a captive firm and taking the entrepreneurial route and starting their own firm, or they’re leaving an independent BD to go start their own RIA. What do you see as some of the biggest misconceptions that advisors have about that move? Joshua Tomolak: That’s probably my favorite topic because there are the most misconceptions I think in this space. Louis Diamond: I’d agree. Joshua Tomolak: And I would say there’s 9 out of 10 conversations that I have with advisors and teams, they start off with the launching an RIA in mind or at least RIA curious and they want to understand what’s out there. And probably less than half the time do these folks end up actually launching their own RIA, which is okay because the ones that do are massively successful and they know they’re dang sure that’s exactly what they want to do. I think it gets a little bit romanticized sometimes that they’ll say, “Oh, I’ll just give Schwab a call,” or, “I’ll just give the custodian a call,” as if they were shopping independent broker dealers. That’s fine. You can do that and they will help you, but there’s quite a bit more to think about. And it’s not, in my opinion, the same as evaluating independent broker dealers. If it’s all right, I was taught the four pillars of the RIA model. I can go through that with you really quickly. So the way to think about the RIA space is in four pieces. And shout out to a friend, Eli Suarez, that taught me this years ago. The first pillar… Thinking of four pillars on a bar stool, if you will. The first one being administration. And this is your compliance, this is setting up your ADV, your LLC, all of your business formation documents. The second piece being technology, what do you actually want to use? Because the benefits of the broker-dealer world and the supported independent world is they’ve already built it for you. They’ve already paid for it and scraped their knees building it. In this case, you have to. And for some people, that’s really exciting to source financial planning software and portfolio management software and your CRM and tax software, et cetera. For some people, it just sounds like a huge headache. The third pillar being custodians. I have them third because you want to make sure that the right custodian can integrate properly with the technology that you’ve sourced that you’re passionate about. And then ultimately transition. What does a transition really look like? What are my legal and regulatory requirements? How does this work? What are the timelines? Things of that nature. So I guess I would say in closing that if those four things are things that you really want to own, then you’re in a really good position to consider an RIA launch. What do you think, Louis? Louis Diamond: I think that’s a great framework to break it down. Not just be like, “Okay, I can tolerate that,” or, “My team can do it,” but I think you have to be pretty excited about rolling up your sleeves and customizing and doing it yourself because in our experience, there’s a nominal differential between the economics of running your own RIA versus affiliating with an RIA or going to an independent BD. All the extra work and responsibility, you’re not really going to make it up, at least on the front end, on a higher net payout. So it has to be more about what the model means to you and having a vision that you don’t think anyone else can accomplish other than yourself. And looking at that crazy ever-expanding Michael Kitces’ FinTech map and there’s 500 different logos on it and being like, “Yes, that’s what I want. I want to go through this. I want to pick the seven pieces of my tech stack that work for me,” rather than getting, “Here’s the tech stack, take a demo, you like it, you don’t like it, take it or leave it.” To me, the two biggest misconceptions people have about the RIA world is one, “I’m going to have to be a full-time chief compliance officer,” and just that compliance is this boogeyman, this terrible, scary thing. In some ways it is. But the reality is most, especially startup RIAs will fully outsource compliance to a firm or they’ll hire a compliance consultant or firms that are big enough even will hire a CCO or repurpose someone on their team to be CCO. But compliance is much more streamlined and simpler than BD compliance. And ultimately, it’s compliance that’s being built for your business rather than compliance that’s being built for a publicly traded multinational company that supports 20,000 financial advisors. So I think compliance is always a big misconception. It’s definitely what a lot of firms will pry upon when they’re saying like, “Oh, you’re going to own all the legal and regulatory requirements. You could, but it’s definitely not a requirement.” And then I think another one is folks sometimes underestimate and overestimate the operational burden and how much work it is to start an RIA. Sometimes people just… They’re perfect for the RIA world, that’s their goal, but they get stopped in their tracks. They don’t really know what to do. But what we’ve seen, we said it earlier with so many different outsourcing solutions and different service providers that have popped up, if you have the fire in your belly to go build something, it doesn’t mean you’re doing it by yourself. I mean, that’s what firms like ours do. The custodians are very helpful. On the flip side though, I have seen advisors chasing payouts say, “Hey, I’m just going to go start an RIA because I want to make another 1 to 3%,” or whatever it comes to and they drastically underestimate what it really takes to build a successful firm. Joshua Tomolak: Exactly right. I think that’s my favorite one, Louis, overestimating and estimating the operational burden there is you could have the same conversation with two teams and it can go the completely different direction. Louis Diamond: Josh, let’s wrap here. I got one more question for you that I think is an exciting one, but give me three key trends or storylines that most people don’t know about or aren’t talking about that you’re passionate about or that you’re sharing with advisors or counseling today. Joshua Tomolak: Sure. This is the free advice portion. And I’ll tell you what, Louis, if it’s all right with you, I’ll give you two and I would love to hear one from you as well. The first one I’ve seen in both the independent broker-dealer and RIA space is the minority investor concept. A lot of folks will talk about the idea of taking chips off a table and starting to partially monetize your business. I think that’s all important, but what I’ve found is that a lot of advisors really want their partner, whether it’s an RIA broker dealer to help them grow. And that could be with M&A opportunities, that could be with traditional recruitment of advisors, that could be building a business plan. But the minority investment part really helps accelerate that for a lot of businesses because all of a sudden, not only are you cashing out a small part of your business, but you’ve just created an ally with the parent entity, it is now much more likely to help you grow in that capacity because they’re insulated from it and they profit when you profit. So I think it’s easy to be shortsighted and say, “Well, my equity’s going to keep growing. Why would I sell you a piece of this?” But I counsel folks often to really think about what that long-term strategic partnership is and making somebody a real equity partner rather than just a vendor that provides you with technology and regulatory coverage. The other one I’d say is that… And this one’s really important to me, that business formation is far more important than your assets under management. Said a different way, the way you build your business is going to make your business far more valuable than the number of dollars underneath your name. And what I mean by that is, just to use an example, a sophisticated, well-built, centralized, scalable and repeatable business, whether it’s an RIA with a broker-dealer that is going to fetch a far higher M&A multiple than a OSJ that’s five times the size that just has a bunch of 1099 independent advisors underneath the umbrella. What we’ve seen in the M&A space is that if you’re going to shell out 50, 60, $80 million for somebody’s business, you want to know that you have this business for the long term. So I would certainly counsel people that have been around maybe far longer than me to take a look at how you’re building this and put together a business plan on what those next 10 years should look like and not necessarily fall into the trap where your only revenue source is the override that you receive from a firm and then you in turn pay to the advisors on your team. Louis Diamond: Well said. I really like that line. We’d probably do a whole episode on what are the tips and tricks for building a business with the end in mind? Like the Covey quote, “Begin with the end in mind.” Transitions are like… They’re a bear. I mean, there’s no way to sugarcoat it. Advisors, when they hear transition, if you ask them, “Don’t think about it, give me your reaction.” “Terrible, risky, a lot of work. I’ll never do it again. My friend did it and it was terrible. What if my clients don’t come?” It’s all these negative emotions. And in many cases, I don’t blame an advisor because it is a big act. But to me, if someone is weighing making a transition, whether a wholesale business model change going from being an employee to being independent, going from being an advisor at an independent BD to starting an RIA, or even going independent BD to independent BD, it’s an opportunity if you rise to the occasion to build with this next act with intentionality. So whether it’s restructuring compensation for your team, converting people from 1099 to W2, putting in place new workflows, changing how investments, instead of it being each individual advisor doing investments to more of a centralized model, cleaning up workflows, really investing in data, investing in AI. It’s something that I think, again, we can have a whole episode on it, but I think it’s a great one. Build the business the right way. And obviously, businesses that are larger, theoretically, sell for more, but we’ve certainly seen businesses that are half the size of a larger one sell for a similar amount or more because they did all the right things and the larger one did the things that really turn off a buyer or detract from a valuation. Let me give you one more and tell me if you agree, but I think we’re in this moment when Altruist, the upstart, a new kid on the block custodian, they launched a basically tokenization of cash in a way to automatically agentically source or sort cash to the highest yielding money market. And you’re like, “This is fricking wonky. Louis, why are you telling us this?” I think this is an important one just to keep a watchful eye on. I have no idea how this is going to shake out, but really the biggest way that independent BDs or even custodians like Schwab and Fidelity really make money, it’s not on their overrides from practices or the admin fee or the custody fee. It’s really on net interest margin. So how much the broker-dealer or the firm is making on client cash and brokerage accounts relative to what they’re paying out the client. It’s essentially like free margin to these firms. And this concept, I think, has massive potential for disruption for the business model. Again, I don’t know what it’s going to look like, whether it means platform fees that are instituted at all these firms, whether it means certain models would be more beneficial than others, whether it means nothing’s going to change, which is probably the right answer given this industry. But it’s something to keep a watchful eye on just if your firm institutes a new platform fee or there’s a fundamental way in which your firm can no longer make money. How are they going to make it up? Are they now going to be uncompetitive? They’re not going to have as much scale or profits to invest in the platform. Is it going to cause even more consolidation in the industry? So to me, that’s the one pretty under the radar, pretty wonky storyline that I don’t think enough people are talking about, but has the biggest possibility for disruption across their space than anything I’ve seen in a while. Joshua Tomolak: Sure. That’s the whole iceberg. Not a lot of people are talking about it. It’s not poking out of the ocean, but it’s going to be continuously brought up. I think it’s a question that a lot of advisors are going to have to ask these firms. And at the end of the day, the firms aren’t the bad guys. They have to make money too to provide a quality product. So where the money comes from matters. Louis Diamond: Exactly. Josh, this has been awesome. I learned a lot talking with you and just having your objective consulting hat on what I think are really the differences between IBD and RIA and some of the key trends and storylines to watch has been instrumental. I’ll also give a plug that on our website and we’ll link to it in the show notes, we have a really helpful one-page reference guide going through the differences between independent BDs or IBDs and RIAs. So feel free to click on it. We’ll make sure it gets in your inbox. Josh, thanks again for joining us today. Joshua Tomolak: Yeah, thanks for having me, Louis. It was a pleasure. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. IBD vs. RIA: A Special Industry Update on Independence A conversation with Louis Diamond and Josh Tomolak, Vice President of Independent Advisor Services at Diamond Consultants.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is IBD vs. RIA: A Special Industry Update on Independence. It’s a conversation with Josh Tomolak, our Vice President of Independent Advisor Services. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: For a long time, going independent would suggest the destination. Today, it’s often the beginning of a different conversation. As the independent space has matured, advisors have more choices than ever before. Broker-dealers have expanded their capabilities. The RIA ecosystem has become increasingly sophisticated. Capital is more readily available and support models now exist that would’ve been difficult to imagine a decade ago. The result is that many advisors who are already independent are taking a fresh look at whether their current affiliation still aligns with what they’re trying to build. My guest is Josh Tomolak, Vice President of Independent Advisor Services here at Diamond Consultants and our resident expert on independence. Josh spends his days helping advisors evaluate independence in all its forms from independent broker dealers, the fully independent RIAs and everything in between. And his knowledge is critical because the distinction between these models is often blurred. Many broker dealers now offer pathways to greater autonomy while supported independence has made RIA ownership more accessible than ever before. So the question is no longer simply, “Do I want to go independent?” The question is, “What kind of independence makes the most sense for client, business, and goals?” Josh shares what he’s seeing across the landscape, the misconceptions that continue to shape advisor thinking and the factors that matter most when evaluating the next chapter of an independent business. There’s a lot to discuss, so let’s get to it. Josh, thanks for joining me today. Joshua Tomolak: Thanks for having me, Louis. It’s a real privilege to have come. This is a full circle moment for me going from being a student of your podcast, to working alongside you, to being a guest. So I appreciate you having me. Louis Diamond: Amazing. I’m excited for this one too, because you have a fresh and in the weeds perspective that a lot of our guests simply don’t have. So why don’t you start off, you spend your time helping advisors evaluate independence every day. So working with advisors who are already independent, for the most part. And to me, it feels like the independent space has really evolved dramatically over the last decade. I mean, this podcast is really the epicenter of that to prove that out, but give us a little background on your past roles in the space and then we can get into what you’re seeing right now. Joshua Tomolak: Yeah, I’d be happy to. So I took a very non-traditional path into wealth management. I spent a decade as a deep sea Navy diver, and upon completing my service there, I ended up working for TD Ameritrade. And in my role there, I spent about six years doing nothing but helping financial advisors explore the RIA space, whether that was to join or partner with an RIA, sell to an RIA, or in most cases, launch their own RIA. And one of the things that I ultimately came to terms with is it’s just not the right model for everybody. While I’m a huge advocate for it, we would often lose business to the major broker-dealers of the world. And at the time, I really didn’t understand why. In the last six years at Diamond Consultants has been a very interesting purview into what a lot of the broker-dealers have done and are doing to make themselves more RIA-ish and be very compelling to the right advisor. Louis Diamond: Perfect framing. Your background is incredibly germane to the folks you work with. So let’s start off with the softball here. What are you seeing right now? Joshua Tomolak: It’s not so different than the rest of the industry, the wirehouses, the regional firms, things of that nature, that if you took 10 firms, they’re all likely to go different directions, even if they were identical practices. That could be… A third would go from an independent broker-dealer to another independent broker-dealer. Certainly the supported RIA space is growing every day and has created a lot of very fun and unique solutions for advisors, very customized and curated. And then I think there’s still a lot of really great sophisticated teams and individual contributors that are making the decision to go hyper entrepreneurial and launch their own individual RIA. So the movement’s really all over the board from my perspective. Louis Diamond: It does feel like it’s no longer independence is an alternative option or it’s on the fringes. It’s very front and center whether for breakaways, which is a big topic on our podcast, but in general, the infrastructure has become much, much more sophisticated today than ever before. Advisors have way more tools in their toolbox to serve clients, whether in the private markets or through technology. And it’s no longer that if an advisor’s independent, they’re in the minor leagues where they don’t have the same ability to serve clients like they did if they’re at a big bank or a private bank or a wirehouse. Do you agree? Joshua Tomolak: I absolutely agree. And I’m reminded of a question I got one time from a great team that I worked with in New York. They asked me, “Are there really more options than ever before? Because all we see is one firm selling to another.” And I think that’s a really great point. There’s far less broker dealers on the street than there were even five years ago. But for every Commonwealth, for example, that sells to an LPL, up pops three or four really cool private equity-backed, sophisticated RIA platform firms that are built to service their own unique advisor base. Louis Diamond: I think that’s right. Sitting on the sidelines, sitting on top of everything going on in the industry, I feel like capital is always an interesting topic forever. If an advisor wanted to move within the independent world or break away from a big firm to go independent, the only way to get capital was to go to an independent broker dealer. So we still see that, but I feel like today between all these minority acquisition opportunities, we’re seeing firms acquire practices at time of transition, which is somewhat new. There’s debt solutions, recruiting deals are way up for firms that are paying forgivable loans. RIAs now would, in some cases, will pay a forgivable note. What are you seeing there as far as the availability of capital and just deals in general? Joshua Tomolak: It’s a great question and I didn’t want to take the low-hanging fruit, but capital’s been a huge innovation, I guess, in the last five years I’d say. Just to give you rough quotes, please don’t hold me to it, but traditional transition broker-dealer deals were five years ago, 40 to 60% of Trailing Twelve revenue today are somewhere between 90 and 120%, sometimes north of that for the right team. That’s really meaningful money for the team that is thinking about foregoing a wirehouse deal, for example. I’d also say a lot of these firms are getting hyper-creative in how they solve for capital. The minority investment piece that you mentioned is very interesting. We’re seeing a lot of privatized forgivable notes in the RIA space where third-party or private lenders are basically lending the money and the RIA is making the payments on that forgivable note as long as the advisor is affiliated with them. So there’s been a recognition among the RIA space to get away from the, “Oh, they just took a check” type of mantra, and to say, “Look, I understand there are capital needs. These people are taking a risk. We need to solve for that.” So we’ve seen a lot of that in the marketplace. Louis Diamond: Very interesting. I think another thing financially, and then we’ll keep the train moving, that I know I’ve seen, and maybe you can weigh in if you’ve seen the same, is the cost to an advisor or a business owner to join an independent BD or to join an RIA has come way down, probably in part because of Schwab going to zero on trading. That’s been a catalyst. But it feels like we used to say independent BDs were expensive relative to the RIA world. And in some cases, they certainly could be. And if you’re at scale, maybe you can pick up a point or two being in the RIA world versus a BD. But when you have some of these BDs that have a basis point admin fee or no admin fee at a certain size and the payouts I feel like are similar, maybe have gone up a little bit, but it’s more so like the administrator fees, the platform fees, the program fees. Anyone who’s not in that world, it’s like, “What are you talking about?” But basically the way that these broker-dealers make money, it seems like there’s been a pretty big differential in the exchange of value where advisors now get more services, better technology, get more money to join them and get it at a lower cost. Do you agree? Joshua Tomolak: I absolutely agree. I think that maybe that’s one of the larger changes that we’ve seen, and it’s probably one of the benefits from a lot of the industry consolidation on that independent broker-dealer side. The economies of scale of these folks have allowed them to increase their tech spend, increase their service capacities all while offering it to the advisors at a cheaper price. And when I was at TD Ameritrade, one of the biggest pitches was the idea of a 100% payout and you control the fixed expenses, your technology compliance, et cetera. But what’s changed is that broker-dealers are pretty darn comparable on the expenses. All of those admin fees and things you mentioned will still exist, but they’re on a much smaller scale. And I think the question a lot of advisors are asking is, “Am I getting congruent value from my broker-dealer for what I pay for?” And while that answer might’ve been no a couple years ago, today the answer is more often yes. Louis Diamond: Yeah, I would agree. A lot of times we work with advisors who are starting an RIA or affiliating with an RIA or going to a BD and they see how big the deals are in the independent BD world and the payouts are really high and the fees are relatively low. And honestly, it is a hard decision or calculus to make, like, “How does it make sense for me to turn down this extremely lucrative deal when my ongoing economics are going to be somewhat similar in the BD world versus in the RIA space?” I think it’s just an interesting dynamic and we’ll get more into that distinction. One of the stars of the show right here is we’ve seen a ton of advisor movement across the industry. Our annual advisor transition report said that in 2025, over 11,000 experienced advisors changed firms, which is a large number. A lot of those numbers are within the independent world. So advisors who are 1099 through a BD or through an RIA transitioning to another platform or organization or starting an RIA. So why do you think we’re seeing so many advisors reconsider their current firm or their platform or their broker-dealer today than in years past? Joshua Tomolak: It’s a jarring number. 11,000 is definitely a significant amount of advisor movements. To me, it comes down to a few things, but I will say that it’s almost always a conglomeration of pushes and pulls. Pushes being inherent frustrations with your status quo, pulls being the new sexy, shiny things that you see in the marketplace that could be really impactful for your business. To me, it typically comes down to one of three things, at least on the push front, that drives advisors to movement. Service being number one, technology being number two, and economics being number three. And if we were just going to unpack those, I think service being, “Can you call somebody that knows your business, that knows your name? Are you getting the correct answers? Are you being pushed through a phone tree? And even if you’re not doing it, is it taking up a meaningful amount of time of your staff’s free time?” On the technology front, there’s very significant tech spends happening in the industry right now. I think Raymond James and LPL reported, for example, they spent 500 million in 2025 on a tech spend. So advisors are going to the places that are making their life easier. People are looking for a mechanism to really scale their business without having to add staff and a lot of expenses to the bottom line. And technology is just the fastest, most efficient way to do that most times. And then economics, certainly a lot of advisors and teams have built phenomenal businesses and they’ve made a great living without really stressing out about the economics. And they eventually get to a point in their business where what they were giving up as a million dollar producer is far different than what they’re giving up as a $4 million producer. And back to the congruent value, it perhaps stops to make as much sense. Louis Diamond: Well said. I always say when the cost-to-value ratio is out of whack, that’s when advisors sit up and take notice. And not to name names of firms, but there definitely are firms that are more expensive. And even if you look at how much a wirehouse or a Ed Jones advisor paid their firm, it’s like, “What got me here is not necessarily what’s going to get me there.” And while the name on the business card, the resources were incredibly impactful, and I’m so grateful for what my firm, my broker-dealer did for me when I was just starting or when I was smaller. Now the business is bigger, I rely upon different resources or I don’t need the firm as much. So I’d rather plow the cost savings either into income for myself or invest it in areas that are most germane to my business. And it’s usually when that kind of light bulb moment goes off, that’s one of the major pushes that cause advisors to evaluate other options. So I agree with you, those are the major push factors, but then what are the pull factors? What are the major advancements or changes across the independent space that’s causing advisors to say, “Hey, okay, I might have some frustrations, but at the same time, I also need to find something that’s more than marginally better than the firm I’m at. Otherwise, why am I going to go through the hassle, take the risk, et cetera? So what are some of the pull factors that advisors are latching onto today? Joshua Tomolak: Sure. And I might say with one final push factor, there’s a straw that breaks the proverbial camel’s back when you’ve been told for however many years that this change or that change is coming down the pipeline and it never happens. And it translates well into the pull factors is do they do what they say they’re going to do? The talking points really for the pull factors are exactly the same. So the counterpoint to service is perhaps having a direct relationship with the chief compliance officer at a firm or having a dedicated service representative that knows their stuff inside and out and can get you the answer even if they don’t know it off the top of their head. Having the technology to rebalance a household in two clicks instead of two hours. In economics, I think it’s really a transparency of economics. We’ve both worked with some really significant firms that have looked at their P&Ls and said, “where the heck is the money going?” And we’ve looked at the same P&Ls and said, “I have no idea,” because it’s so convoluted. People are happy to pay for good service, good technology, good products, but they just want to know where the money’s coming from. So I think it’s a yin and yang. The same things that they’re the push are often the pull. Louis Diamond: Definitely. I’ll give you a couple other from my perspective. I’ll say first specific to the independent BD world, and then we’ll dive into the RIA, I think it’s a little bit different. But I think some other will say innovations or changes that are causing advisors to really perk up and listen and really make the case to themselves that life will be better at this new organization than the status quo or staying put. We’ve seen major advancements in transition support, whether it’s being able to do a transition without a shred of paper, being able to… I mean, we’ve seen some independent advisors move their entire book within two weeks, which never would’ve happened before. So the firms that I’d say are playing offense, the larger firms that are winning, they have insane headcount around transitions and are always investing in technology, whether now on the AI front or in general. And we’ve seen transitions, they’re never easy. So that’s not a comment to say it’s easy, but a lot of the friction, a lot of the manual work has been taken away, which is massive. You definitely mentioned the significant technology spend. I mean, just the innovations going on across the industry. There’s definitely some firms that are laggards on technology and others that are light years ahead, whether because their tech is more integrated or they’ve built out their platform to be more, we’ll say modular, to plug in different third-party softwares where an advisor can really customize and create their own tech stack. I think there’s been some changes on compliance. It used to be if you’re at an independent BD, you had to be the OSJ by yourself or you had to roll up under an OSJ. But now most BDs offer home office supervision, so a big friction or pain point is taken away. And then I’ll give you a bridge to talk about what we’re seeing on the RIA side. But we’ve also seen, I would say, a real blurring of the lines between what you would traditionally think of as an independent broker dealer versus what was an RIA. So whether it’s an internal pathway where it’s like, “Start off on our independent BD platform, get the big deal, get the support, but then you can ditch that and just use this as a custodian or you can sell the business to us when you want to retire and convert to W2.” So in that vein, transitioning internally to an RIA, give me the same points like, “What are the major advancements or changes you’re seeing on the RIA side today?” Joshua Tomolak: I love that you said that because it’s been one of the most interesting changes to watch. Independent broker dealers becoming more like RIAs, and to your point, being more flexible, having more optionality, a more curated experience in some cases. And in many cases becoming closer to independent broker dealers with some of these massive shops that we’ve seen be created over the last five years that now have hundreds, if not thousands of advisors. To your question on the internal RIA slide as we sometimes call it, this really didn’t exist many places a few years ago. And I think it’s been created as both originally a retention tool in many places for the advisors that were with a major independent broker dealer and they ultimately wanted to have their own ADV and their own RIA. And the firm didn’t want to lose all the assets to an independent custodian so they gave them the green light to… And it’s ultimately became a sales tool in many cases. Just to use a couple of examples across the industry, I mean, Raymond James has Raymond James Custody Services, which has attracted a lot of really sophisticated teams. I know Wells Fargo Finance done something similar and even the counterparts over at Cetera and Osaic are trying to do the same thing. So it’s a recognition in my view that we want to keep the best talent possible. And if these folks are ultimately going to go RIA anyway, it’s less about the money and more about the flexibility and control that it offers them. So what can we do to keep those folks on board? And rightfully so, a lot of senior management of these firms have said, “Let’s not lose these teams. It’s going to be a lower margin business for us, but at the rate that they’re growing, it’s going to pay off in the long run.” Louis Diamond: Well said. RIAs are now more mainstream. And some of these RIAs, they’re either resembling independent BDs or I would even go so far to say the valuations that are even publicly available on some RIAs is definitely having people take notice. I mean, Cerity Partners recently raised capital at an over $8 billion reported valuation. Crescent was well over a billion. Firms like Mariner, Creative Planning, Mercer, Wealth Enhancement Group, and there’s many that I’m missing, are all worth a couple billion dollars or more and growing. Do you think that’s had an impact on the legitimacy or the staying power of the RIA model? Joshua Tomolak: Oh, absolutely. There’s no doubt about it. I mean, those groups that you mentioned and many more are winning some of the biggest teams on the street. I mean, if you pull up a run-of-the-mill advisor hub article, for example, you’ll see as many of those RIAs win significant businesses as you will their broker-dealer counterparts, partially in my opinion, due to the massive valuations these firms are fetching. And it’s much more of a partnership in the sense that joining a Crescent or a Wealth Enhancement Group, as you mentioned, you’re a part of a boutique group of maybe a couple of hundred very sophisticated high-producing advisors all playing under the same banner, all rowing in the same direction, and that creates substantial growth. Louis Diamond: Exactly right. I think two other things to me that’s driving the legitimacy or the growth of the RIA segment, there’s so many different outsourcing solutions that have popped up, whether it’s more of a… We’ll say a bundled or a package outsourcing solution through firms like Dynasty and Sanctuary. LPL has done a ton with having a shared services outsourcing model. So you have those. But you also have, I mean, probably 10 different firms I could think of that can be an outsourced chief compliance officer. You have tons of marketing agencies that specialize in helping RIAs. You have all these FinTechs popping up to support the RIA space. Really, it’s like anything and everything can be outsourced now. And even the big Wall Street banks like UBS, Merrill, et cetera, they’re attempting to sell and distribute product into the RIA space. Venture funds, private equity funds, anyone you talk to is trying to get a piece of the RIA space, which means there’s more product and platform availability than ever before. And I think it’s massive because one, it’s a catalyst for teams who say, “I love everything about the RIA world. I just don’t want to do it on my own,” or, “I don’t know where to start.” But also it means that they can look their clients in the eye and say, “Hey, not only do I have the same stuff that I had for you at XYZ firm, I can actually do more for you.” And even if you look at what the custodians are doing on the lending side now, Schwab owning a bank is massive and being able to facilitate mortgages, securities-backed loans, things that didn’t really exist in the past. I think it’s a very exciting time for advisors either that are independent or are considering the independent space because you have all these choices and it’s really like, “Choose your own adventure. Give me your top five things you want.” I’m sure it exists and we can find it and make it happen. And I don’t think we’d have the same confidence in that statement 5, 7, 10 years ago. Joshua Tomolak: I couldn’t agree more. That’s such a huge development is the marketplace of third party vendors in any kind of capitalism environment. There’s problems that people encounter and there’s really smart people that are trying to make a lot of money that go to market to solve them. And we’ve seen a ton of that over the last few years. Louis Diamond: Exactly right. Yeah, it’s like also… If an advisor looks around and says, “Hey, this is what I want,” and it doesn’t exist, oftentimes that’s a light bulb moment to be like, “Okay, I’ll go build it. I’ll do it on my own.” Whether it was Stewart Partners when they launched a number of years ago or Hightower, Dynasty, et cetera. They were all started by people that said, “Hey, I see a big gap in the ecosystem. Let’s create a business and raise capital to go solve it and then deliver this service to other like-minded advisors or business owners.” Honestly, it’s a treat to be able to watch all this happen in real time. We probably should have laid the groundwork with this next question, but I think it’s an important one. What’s the difference between a independent broker-dealer and an RIA? Really basic foundational. It sounds like the lines are blurred. There’s probably a lot of similarities. Advisors are successful in both. It’s not like one’s better than the other. How would you explain the differences, if a client of ours asked, “What’s the difference between an independent broker-dealer and IBD versus an RIA”? Joshua Tomolak: Get into the core of it. Again, the lines are blurred, and I’ll stay very high level on the strategic differences, but I like to use this example. I drive a Toyota Tundra. Really like the truck, gets me from A to B. Now, if I were getting to a point where I wanted a new vehicle, if I were to go get another Toyota Tundra because I really like a lot of aspects of it, but I want the one with the bigger screen and the bigger tires and the power seats, and I have rolled down windows because I have a fear of drowning. But if I want a lot of the bells and whistles, but I want to keep the foundation, that’s what I align to a independent broker-dealer to independent broker-dealer. You like the foundation of everything all under one roof. You like a lot of the resources, but you have some meaningful frustrations and you want to see if another provider in the market can solve for those or you can upgrade. If I instead, Louis, decided that I wanted a sports car or a Jeep Wrangler or something, I would be looking at a different category altogether. That’s how I articulate the platform space. They provide the same services and support in many cases that an independent broker-dealer does, think of marketing and a tech stack and regulatory oversight and a fellowship in a community, but they’re built on an RIA TC registered chassis. They’re typically far more customized so you can shop the street to get a lot more of the things that you like, though you are walking away from maybe some of the things that you’ve liked in the independent broker-dealer model. So I guess that’s the highest level I might explain it, just a little bit more minutia in any broker-dealer is going to be a FINRA registered, FINRA member broker-dealer. So they’re subject to the FINRA rules, which basically means it’s the compliance interpretation of those rules that they have to follow. So LPL’s rules may be slightly different than Cetera’s than Ameriprise’s because it’s based on their interpretations of the rules. In the RIA space, everybody really operates on the fiduciary standard. So it’s just a different lens that from a compliance standpoint, business is looked at. And a lot of people would make the argument that it’s just easier to get things done when you’re looking at something from that lens. I might’ve gone too compliance nerd on you there, but I’d be curious what you think some of the major differences are. Louis Diamond: Yeah, I think that’s right. I mean, it sounds like if you’re in the RIA world in some capacity that you as the advisor or business owner are going to have a little bit more control and autonomy and flexibility. One, do you think that’s true? And what are the reasons why that is? Is it platform? Is it strictly just compliance is easier? What are the different ways that an RIA would have more or less flexibility than someone who’s with an independent BD? Joshua Tomolak: Yeah, I think it’s overwhelmingly true, but it certainly depends on your business. Within most RIA platforms, you’re going to be one of a couple dozen, maybe a couple hundred, where you’re going to have people within that firm that really know your business. So the experience in getting things done is much less about, “Can I do this,” or, “Can I not do this?” And it’s, “Louis, I understand you asked for this. We’re going to run into these issues, but let’s figure out how to get to yes.” So it’s far more curated by people that are not operating on black and white rules and can actually figure out how to get to yes for your business. The other thing I would say is that most significant RIA platforms have multiple custodial options. So many times you’ll see as few as two or as many as five. So if an advisor or a team is trying to bring on a new piece of business or do something creative, that might be something they can use a different custodial relationship to accomplish. It might be something that Goldman Sachs does really well but is in its infancy at Fidelity, or it might be international business that’s approved on Pershing’s platform but not Schwab’s platform. So the RIA partner that you’re with can really look at those custodians agnostically and say, “What’s the best home for this business? What’s the best way to get this done for Louis?” There’s a couple examples of where I see the flexibility in practice. Louis Diamond: Yeah, I think one more too would be the concept of being able to shop the street. I’ve heard it described as becoming a buy-side advocate for your clients versus being a professional seller. So meaning, if I’m affiliated with an RIA or I’m operating my own RIA, there’s no selling away like there is at a wirehouse or at certain BDs. So if I have a client who’s trying to get a $10 million loan for a new building that they’re breaking ground on, if I’m at UBS, Merrill, Morgan Stanley, captive to a BD, I can go to my firm and say, “Hey, this $10 million loan, here it is. What are the terms? What are the rates? Will you take on this business?” And the firm will say, “Yes. No. Yes, here are the terms. Here’s the caveats, et cetera.” But it’s a very closed market process and an advisor has to live and die by what their firm says. Versus in the RIA world, it’s, “Okay, I have relationships with nine different banks and I can go to these different banks and private credit funds and whoever and really create either an option process for my client or really just help them in a fully agnostic open way.” And we see the same thing when it comes to alternative investments. No one at a wirehouse, let’s say, is complaining that they don’t have enough alts that they can offer clients. Those firms have done an amazing job with really boiling the ocean and having tons and tons of options for private investments, hedge funds, et cetera. But if you’re in the RIA world, you can take it to the next level and say, “Hey, this $3 million startup company that my friend is starting, I’m going to help them raise capital,” or, “My client wants to get a syndicate of investors together to have a direct investment into a qualified opportunity zone fund that they’re starting. Let’s do it when we can advise on it.” So it really expands what an advisor is able to do on behalf of clients. Like to me, that’s the most interesting or exciting part of the RIA model. You can get some of that within the BD world, but to me, when an advisor’s business becomes more sophisticated as far as what their end client’s needs are, it tends to translate better to the RIA world than the BD world. Not to say there aren’t ultra-high net worth focused advisors at BDs, but because of that additional flexibility, autonomy, customization, et cetera, that speaks more RIA. So again, absolutely not down at all on the independent BDs because I think there’s a massive home for them. Josh, let me turn it back to you. I’m rambling now. Give me the pitch for an independent BD. What are the things that are misperceptions that people have? What are the advantages that an independent broker dealer like an LPL or a RayJ or a Cetera have over RIAs or over other models in general? Joshua Tomolak: Absolutely. And I’d say I’ve learned more over the last six years from some of your ramblings than most people learn in an MBA course, so keep doing what you’re doing. But it’s funny being in this position now, having spent so much time sort of selling against the IBD model within TD Ameritrade, but what I’ve learned is it’s a good home for everybody. And a lot of times the advisors that they’re entrepreneurial enough where they like having their name on the door, but they’re not so entrepreneurial where they want to build everything out themselves, that’s where the independent broker dealers absolutely kill it. Their economics have gotten to a point where they’re really competitive. They offer transition capital that isn’t even going to be comparable in the RIA space unless you’re selling a minority share of your business. And you mentioned LPL, or we could really list all of the major ones, there’s not a department that they don’t have. It could be as nuance as finding 403(b) payroll slots or it could be as mainstream as fixed income or setting up events. There are all kinds of really neat departments that these all under one roof independent broker dealers have invested in. And a lot of times they make an effort to make you very much aware of all of the support because most people don’t use it. So I would say for the advisors that are looking to get their improved Toyota Tundra, then you can get probably 70 or 80% of what you want within the independent broker-dealer world. And you can also keep 20 or 30% of the stuff, maybe more that you really liked at your previous firm. So I think that’s where it really shines. I sometimes call it an incremental change rather than a transformational change. But for many advisors, incremental is really good enough if you get to keep the familiarity of how you’ve been doing business for the last 20-some years, but you’re able to get net improvement on the things that were really bothering you. Louis Diamond: Well said. Something that I’ve seen that’s been… I guess this could be either pro or con depending upon the advisor, but with some broker dealers, letting an advisor co-brand with them or really having a real consumer-facing brand, whether it’s, “I’m a franchise owner with Ameriprise,” or, “I’m independent through Raymond James,” or, “Running my own practice through Wells Fargo FiNet,” or, “I’m independent with Northwestern Mutual.” There’s definitely some brand cache or brand familiarity with some of those firms that may or may not be the same if you’re in the RIA world. So I would agree there’s a lot to like about the independent BD world and there’s a fit for people that is absolutely better with independent BDs than on the RIA side. Even if some people would say RIA is better, we’re cleaner, I wouldn’t say that. To me, it’s all about what an advisor’s goals are and then matching that up with what these firms do. And there’s never a perfect option. I jokingly say, “If there was a perfect firm, we wouldn’t be in business.” Every firm has their advantages or disadvantages. And depending upon where an advisor’s coming from, their style of business, their pain points, that’ll match up really well with on firm or one type of firm or one model than the other. Let’s pivot a little bit to the RIA world. A lot of your comments have been more about advisors affiliating or joining RIAs, this whole supportive version of independence concept. But what about advisors who want to go and start their own RIA? Either they’re leaving a captive firm and taking the entrepreneurial route and starting their own firm, or they’re leaving an independent BD to go start their own RIA. What do you see as some of the biggest misconceptions that advisors have about that move? Joshua Tomolak: That’s probably my favorite topic because there are the most misconceptions I think in this space. Louis Diamond: I’d agree. Joshua Tomolak: And I would say there’s 9 out of 10 conversations that I have with advisors and teams, they start off with the launching an RIA in mind or at least RIA curious and they want to understand what’s out there. And probably less than half the time do these folks end up actually launching their own RIA, which is okay because the ones that do are massively successful and they know they’re dang sure that’s exactly what they want to do. I think it gets a little bit romanticized sometimes that they’ll say, “Oh, I’ll just give Schwab a call,” or, “I’ll just give the custodian a call,” as if they were shopping independent broker dealers. That’s fine. You can do that and they will help you, but there’s quite a bit more to think about. And it’s not, in my opinion, the same as evaluating independent broker dealers. If it’s all right, I was taught the four pillars of the RIA model. I can go through that with you really quickly. So the way to think about the RIA space is in four pieces. And shout out to a friend, Eli Suarez, that taught me this years ago. The first pillar… Thinking of four pillars on a bar stool, if you will. The first one being administration. And this is your compliance, this is setting up your ADV, your LLC, all of your business formation documents. The second piece being technology, what do you actually want to use? Because the benefits of the broker-dealer world and the supported independent world is they’ve already built it for you. They’ve already paid for it and scraped their knees building it. In this case, you have to. And for some people, that’s really exciting to source financial planning software and portfolio management software and your CRM and tax software, et cetera. For some people, it just sounds like a huge headache. The third pillar being custodians. I have them third because you want to make sure that the right custodian can integrate properly with the technology that you’ve sourced that you’re passionate about. And then ultimately transition. What does a transition really look like? What are my legal and regulatory requirements? How does this work? What are the timelines? Things of that nature. So I guess I would say in closing that if those four things are things that you really want to own, then you’re in a really good position to consider an RIA launch. What do you think, Louis? Louis Diamond: I think that’s a great framework to break it down. Not just be like, “Okay, I can tolerate that,” or, “My team can do it,” but I think you have to be pretty excited about rolling up your sleeves and customizing and doing it yourself because in our experience, there’s a nominal differential between the economics of running your own RIA versus affiliating with an RIA or going to an independent BD. All the extra work and responsibility, you’re not really going to make it up, at least on the front end, on a higher net payout. So it has to be more about what the model means to you and having a vision that you don’t think anyone else can accomplish other than yourself. And looking at that crazy ever-expanding Michael Kitces’ FinTech map and there’s 500 different logos on it and being like, “Yes, that’s what I want. I want to go through this. I want to pick the seven pieces of my tech stack that work for me,” rather than getting, “Here’s the tech stack, take a demo, you like it, you don’t like it, take it or leave it.” To me, the two biggest misconceptions people have about the RIA world is one, “I’m going to have to be a full-time chief compliance officer,” and just that compliance is this boogeyman, this terrible, scary thing. In some ways it is. But the reality is most, especially startup RIAs will fully outsource compliance to a firm or they’ll hire a compliance consultant or firms that are big enough even will hire a CCO or repurpose someone on their team to be CCO. But compliance is much more streamlined and simpler than BD compliance. And ultimately, it’s compliance that’s being built for your business rather than compliance that’s being built for a publicly traded multinational company that supports 20,000 financial advisors. So I think compliance is always a big misconception. It’s definitely what a lot of firms will pry upon when they’re saying like, “Oh, you’re going to own all the legal and regulatory requirements. You could, but it’s definitely not a requirement.” And then I think another one is folks sometimes underestimate and overestimate the operational burden and how much work it is to start an RIA. Sometimes people just… They’re perfect for the RIA world, that’s their goal, but they get stopped in their tracks. They don’t really know what to do. But what we’ve seen, we said it earlier with so many different outsourcing solutions and different service providers that have popped up, if you have the fire in your belly to go build something, it doesn’t mean you’re doing it by yourself. I mean, that’s what firms like ours do. The custodians are very helpful. On the flip side though, I have seen advisors chasing payouts say, “Hey, I’m just going to go start an RIA because I want to make another 1 to 3%,” or whatever it comes to and they drastically underestimate what it really takes to build a successful firm. Joshua Tomolak: Exactly right. I think that’s my favorite one, Louis, overestimating and estimating the operational burden there is you could have the same conversation with two teams and it can go the completely different direction. Louis Diamond: Josh, let’s wrap here. I got one more question for you that I think is an exciting one, but give me three key trends or storylines that most people don’t know about or aren’t talking about that you’re passionate about or that you’re sharing with advisors or counseling today. Joshua Tomolak: Sure. This is the free advice portion. And I’ll tell you what, Louis, if it’s all right with you, I’ll give you two and I would love to hear one from you as well. The first one I’ve seen in both the independent broker-dealer and RIA space is the minority investor concept. A lot of folks will talk about the idea of taking chips off a table and starting to partially monetize your business. I think that’s all important, but what I’ve found is that a lot of advisors really want their partner, whether it’s an RIA broker dealer to help them grow. And that could be with M&A opportunities, that could be with traditional recruitment of advisors, that could be building a business plan. But the minority investment part really helps accelerate that for a lot of businesses because all of a sudden, not only are you cashing out a small part of your business, but you’ve just created an ally with the parent entity, it is now much more likely to help you grow in that capacity because they’re insulated from it and they profit when you profit. So I think it’s easy to be shortsighted and say, “Well, my equity’s going to keep growing. Why would I sell you a piece of this?” But I counsel folks often to really think about what that long-term strategic partnership is and making somebody a real equity partner rather than just a vendor that provides you with technology and regulatory coverage. The other one I’d say is that… And this one’s really important to me, that business formation is far more important than your assets under management. Said a different way, the way you build your business is going to make your business far more valuable than the number of dollars underneath your name. And what I mean by that is, just to use an example, a sophisticated, well-built, centralized, scalable and repeatable business, whether it’s an RIA with a broker-dealer that is going to fetch a far higher M&A multiple than a OSJ that’s five times the size that just has a bunch of 1099 independent advisors underneath the umbrella. What we’ve seen in the M&A space is that if you’re going to shell out 50, 60, $80 million for somebody’s business, you want to know that you have this business for the long term. So I would certainly counsel people that have been around maybe far longer than me to take a look at how you’re building this and put together a business plan on what those next 10 years should look like and not necessarily fall into the trap where your only revenue source is the override that you receive from a firm and then you in turn pay to the advisors on your team. Louis Diamond: Well said. I really like that line. We’d probably do a whole episode on what are the tips and tricks for building a business with the end in mind? Like the Covey quote, “Begin with the end in mind.” Transitions are like… They’re a bear. I mean, there’s no way to sugarcoat it. Advisors, when they hear transition, if you ask them, “Don’t think about it, give me your reaction.” “Terrible, risky, a lot of work. I’ll never do it again. My friend did it and it was terrible. What if my clients don’t come?” It’s all these negative emotions. And in many cases, I don’t blame an advisor because it is a big act. But to me, if someone is weighing making a transition, whether a wholesale business model change going from being an employee to being independent, going from being an advisor at an independent BD to starting an RIA, or even going independent BD to independent BD, it’s an opportunity if you rise to the occasion to build with this next act with intentionality. So whether it’s restructuring compensation for your team, converting people from 1099 to W2, putting in place new workflows, changing how investments, instead of it being each individual advisor doing investments to more of a centralized model, cleaning up workflows, really investing in data, investing in AI. It’s something that I think, again, we can have a whole episode on it, but I think it’s a great one. Build the business the right way. And obviously, businesses that are larger, theoretically, sell for more, but we’ve certainly seen businesses that are half the size of a larger one sell for a similar amount or more because they did all the right things and the larger one did the things that really turn off a buyer or detract from a valuation. Let me give you one more and tell me if you agree, but I think we’re in this moment when Altruist, the upstart, a new kid on the block custodian, they launched a basically tokenization of cash in a way to automatically agentically source or sort cash to the highest yielding money market. And you’re like, “This is fricking wonky. Louis, why are you telling us this?” I think this is an important one just to keep a watchful eye on. I have no idea how this is going to shake out, but really the biggest way that independent BDs or even custodians like Schwab and Fidelity really make money, it’s not on their overrides from practices or the admin fee or the custody fee. It’s really on net interest margin. So how much the broker-dealer or the firm is making on client cash and brokerage accounts relative to what they’re paying out the client. It’s essentially like free margin to these firms. And this concept, I think, has massive potential for disruption for the business model. Again, I don’t know what it’s going to look like, whether it means platform fees that are instituted at all these firms, whether it means certain models would be more beneficial than others, whether it means nothing’s going to change, which is probably the right answer given this industry. But it’s something to keep a watchful eye on just if your firm institutes a new platform fee or there’s a fundamental way in which your firm can no longer make money. How are they going to make it up? Are they now going to be uncompetitive? They’re not going to have as much scale or profits to invest in the platform. Is it going to cause even more consolidation in the industry? So to me, that’s the one pretty under the radar, pretty wonky storyline that I don’t think enough people are talking about, but has the biggest possibility for disruption across their space than anything I’ve seen in a while. Joshua Tomolak: Sure. That’s the whole iceberg. Not a lot of people are talking about it. It’s not poking out of the ocean, but it’s going to be continuously brought up. I think it’s a question that a lot of advisors are going to have to ask these firms. And at the end of the day, the firms aren’t the bad guys. They have to make money too to provide a quality product. So where the money comes from matters. Louis Diamond: Exactly. Josh, this has been awesome. I learned a lot talking with you and just having your objective consulting hat on what I think are really the differences between IBD and RIA and some of the key trends and storylines to watch has been instrumental. I’ll also give a plug that on our website and we’ll link to it in the show notes, we have a really helpful one-page reference guide going through the differences between independent BDs or IBDs and RIAs. So feel free to click on it. We’ll make sure it gets in your inbox. Josh, thanks again for joining us today. Joshua Tomolak: Yeah, thanks for having me, Louis. It was a pleasure. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibilities seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

Matt Kilgroe — President & CEO, Cyndeo Wealth Partners Matt Kilgroe shares how Cyndeo Wealth Partners grew from a newly launched $1.2B RIA to a $3.5B enterprise, and why the next challenge isn’t independence, but building a firm capable of reaching $25B.  In Summary Five years after launching Cyndeo Wealth Partners from UBS, Matt Kilgroe returns to the podcast to discuss what happens after independence. Rather than focusing on the transition itself, Louis and Matt explore the next phase of growth: scaling an advisory business, attracting talent, developing niche expertise, taking on outside capital, and building an enterprise designed to last. Along the way, Matt shares how Cyndeo expanded from $1.2B to $3.5B, why serving professional athletes required a different business model, and what led the firm to partner with Rise Growth Partners as it looks toward a $25B future.  The Storyline For many advisors, independence is viewed as the finish line. For Matt Kilgroe, it became the starting point. When Cyndeo Wealth Partners launched in 2020, the goal wasn’t simply to leave the wirehouse behind. It was to build a business with the flexibility to grow in ways that simply weren’t possible before. Five years later, that vision has evolved into something much larger. Cyndeo has nearly tripled in size, expanded its niche serving professional athletes and entertainers, recruited advisors, added specialized operational talent, and recently welcomed Rise Growth Partners as a minority investor to help accelerate its next phase of growth. The conversation explores what changes when firm leaders stop thinking like advisors managing successful practices and begin thinking like CEOs building enduring enterprises. The discussion spans succession planning, capital strategy, recruiting, organizational design, and the mindset required to scale from billions to tens of billions—all while remaining focused on clients and culture.  Topics Covered Building an enterprise beyond independence Scaling from $1.2B to $3.5B in assets Organic growth versus recruiting Serving professional athletes and entertainers Why fiduciary independence matters for niche client segments Building operational infrastructure for growth Partnering with Dynasty Financial Partners Minority capital and Rise Growth Partners Succession planning and employee ownership Thinking from $3.5B to $25B > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors What did Matt learn after transitioning nearly 98% of his clients? (06:20) Why client relationships—not firm logos—proved to be the firm’s greatest asset during one of the most challenging transitions imaginable. How did Cyndeo nearly triple in size in five years? (16:10) Matt discusses the combination of niche specialization, disciplined organic growth, recruiting, and operational investment that fueled the firm’s expansion. Why has Cyndeo become a destination for professional athletes? (17:15) The conversation explores how deep industry expertise, fiduciary flexibility, and specialized service created a business that would have been difficult to build inside a wirehouse. Why bring on a minority capital partner when the business was already thriving? (24:15) Matt explains why succession planning, future recruiting, and long-term enterprise growth made outside capital the right decision. How should advisors think about ownership versus compensation? (35:40) A candid discussion about enterprise value, equity, and why many advisors underestimate the long-term economics of ownership. What does it actually take to scale toward $25B? (42:20) From hiring executive talent to expanding geographically, Matt shares how he’s thinking about the next chapter of Cyndeo’s evolution. Key Takeaways Independence creates opportunities that extend well beyond higher payouts, including enterprise value, recruiting flexibility, and ownership. Scaling a business requires investing in operational leadership, not just adding advisors. Specialized client niches demand expertise that goes well beyond investment management. Outside capital can accelerate growth when it’s aligned with long-term strategy rather than an exit. Building an enduring enterprise requires thinking differently about succession, talent, governance, and equity. https://youtu.be/WRYJd9Lkt7o Quotable Moments “Don’t rent your practice. Own it.” “You can’t work in those niches and not be a fiduciary.” “We’re not done.” “The road from $3B to $25B is going to really compound on your equity.”  FAQs Why did Cyndeo decide to take on a minority capital partner? To support its next phase of growth, strengthen succession planning, recruit additional talent, and benefit from the experience of leaders who have successfully scaled wealth management businesses before. How did Cyndeo grow from $1.2B to $3.5B? Through a combination of consistent organic growth, specialized client niches, advisor recruiting, and investments in operational infrastructure. Why is serving professional athletes or other niche client segments different from serving traditional wealth clients? Niche client segments often face unique financial decisions involving private investments, business opportunities, and career transitions that require specialized knowledge and a fiduciary framework. What advantages did independence create that weren’t available inside a wirehouse? Matt points to greater flexibility around private investments, the ability to build specialized client experiences, reward employees with equity, and create an enterprise with lasting value. How should advisors think about building versus joining an independent firm? The discussion highlights the tradeoffs between creating your own firm and joining an established independent enterprise, emphasizing that ownership and long-term equity often matter more than headline payouts. What does Matt believe is required to build a $25B firm? A willingness to invest beyond advisors alone, adding executive leadership, expanding geographically, recruiting strategically, and maintaining a long-term enterprise mindset. To support its next phase of growth, strengthen succession planning, recruit additional talent, and benefit from the experience of leaders who have successfully scaled wealth management businesses before. Through a combination of consistent organic growth, specialized client niches, advisor recruiting, and investments in operational infrastructure. Niche client segments often face unique financial decisions involving private investments, business opportunities, and career transitions that require specialized knowledge and a fiduciary framework. Matt points to greater flexibility around private investments, the ability to build specialized client experiences, reward employees with equity, and create an enterprise with lasting value. The discussion highlights the tradeoffs between creating your own firm and joining an established independent enterprise, emphasizing that ownership and long-term equity often matter more than headline payouts. A willingness to invest beyond advisors alone, adding executive leadership, expanding geographically, recruiting strategically, and maintaining a long-term enterprise mindset. Related Resources Article: Your Practice Isn’t Worth What You ThinkMost advisors misjudge their business’s value, not because of the number, but because of the framework. Learn what really drives enterprise value. Rise and Reinvent: Joe Duran on Building and Rebuilding World-Class FirmsHe’s built and rebuilt some of the industry’s most successful firms and now he’s helping others do the same. In this episode, Joe Duran, the founder of Rise Growth Partners, shares lessons from building, selling, and starting again, and how staying curious and adaptable fuels lasting success. Matt KilgroePresident/CEO Prior to launching Cyndeo Wealth Partners in 2020, Matt ran advisory teams at Merrill Lynch and UBS Financial for 29 years. Providing guidance, counsel, and strategy for families the firm serves is Matt’s passion. In addition to his role as an advisor, Matt works in a leadership capacity for Cyndeo while also helping with business development. Matt has been recognized by Barron’s as a Top 1000 or Top 1200 Advisor consistently since 2009. In 2020 Forbes named him to their “Best-In-State Wealth Advisor” list. A graduate of Eckerd College, Matt has served on the Board of Trustees at his alma mater since 2012. His three children are his pride and joy. Daughter Carrington owns Sunstate Yoga studio in St. Petersburg, son Kent is a financial advisor with Cyndeo, and daughter Jillian recently graduated Florida State University. An athlete in college, Matt continues to enjoy staying in shape, playing basketball, and bike riding. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… True Alignment: Advising Business Owners on Wealth, Significance, and Value A conversation with Jason Diamond, Nick Hubert and Taylor Gentry – Founding Partners at Panoramic Capital Partners. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is True Alignment: Advising Business Owners on Wealth, Significance, and Value. It’s a conversation with Nick Hubert and Taylor Gentry, Founding Partners, Panoramic Capital Partners. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: Advisory firms that work with business owner clients typically operate through a fairly traditional wealth management lens. The business may be the source of the wealth, but the advice itself often centers around investments, planning, and asset allocation, yet Panoramic Capital Partners approaches that equation differently. Nick Hubert and Taylor Gentry are the founding partners of the roughly $450 million RIA, serving about 150 families with a seven-person team. And while they come from very different professional backgrounds, Nick with more of a relationship and storytelling orientation, Taylor from the analytical and private equity side, they’ve built the firm around a shared philosophy tied to what they call personal significance, personal wealth, and personal value. A big part of that philosophy, or the north star as they put it, is applying some of the same accountability and long-term thinking frameworks commonly seen in private equity to the advisory relationship itself, not in a transactional sense, but in helping clients think more intentionally about decision-making, alignment, and outcomes over long periods of time. As a result, our conversation delves deeply into the private equity world, reframing how clients and advisors should consider this important tool as both a growth mechanism and a strategic part of their client’s plans. We talk about how that perspective also shapes not only how they think about serving business owners specifically, but also the role private equity should play in wealth management. Then we take a view of their long runway and how they and other younger advisors might see things differently about building firms today and why clarity of vision may matter more than sheer scale in the years ahead, and much, much more. It’s a narrative that is refreshing and informative, so let’s get to it. Taylor, Nick, thank you so much for joining. Walk us through your background. What brought you to the world of wealth management? Nick, let’s start with you. Nick Hubert: Sure. I think I got my first taste of the industry actually in a sophomore year of college internship, or I interned at Morgan Stanley here in Oregon. I studied finance and accounting at University of Oregon, and so I had this affinity for finance and markets and had that privilege of having that internship. So I had it early on in my career. Ultimately ended up setting my sights on doing investment banking and going that route and did that for a short period of time. Ended up not going very long due to a medical reason, so you don’t have to be that sorry for me. And ultimately started my career in business consulting before pretty quickly realizing that I want to get back to finance, back to investing these things that just felt like core competencies and that thing that you keep coming back to when you’re alone in the middle of the night thinking about stuff, it was always that. Just had this desire to work with smaller units than large corporations, which is great for wealth where you get to work with families and small businesses. And so it was just a natural alignment that took me back full-time to the space in 2016. Jason Diamond: I like the framing it through the size of the unit you’re working with and having more of an impact on the family. Taylor, what about you? Taylor Gentry: I’m a little more circuitous, if you will. Spent a couple of years in investment banking, so you can be sorry for me. Nick and I met in undergrad at the University of Oregon, had the opportunity to work in this investment group together where we were investing a portion of the university’s endowment. And like Nick, interned in wealth management and kind of walked away from it going, “Boy, that’s boring. I don’t really like that.” And so moved to New York, cut my teeth in banking for a couple years and we were working… So an investment bank for context, helping companies raise debt, raise equity, and with mergers and acquisitions, we’re working with huge companies. So the Mattels of the world, the largest toy company in the world. Like Nick, realized, “Hey, I’m going to work with smaller companies that we can get our arms around a little bit better and be more helpful with and have a bigger impact on.” So spent about 10 years with a private equity firm in the western half of the US and we invested in companies in what’s referred to as the lower middle market. So companies doing 50 to 300 million of revenue. And we would invest in those companies, grow those businesses and then look to sell them. Awesome experience, learned a ton, got a bunch of experience around how to invest in companies, how to grow businesses. Then had the opportunity to step into the CFO seat of a couple of different operating companies during that time. It was just a great learning ground, but also to see a whole bunch of different situations. Nick and I have always invested in things together. We’ve worked on things together and we’ve always wanted to work together full time. And a few years ago, the stars really just aligned to say, “Hey, what would it look like to create a differentiated offering in the wealth space where we can blend my background on companies, transactions, how to draw on scale and all those pieces and really marry that with the wealth management piece?” And Nick will get into that further, but it’s just a really unique way to partner with families and companies that are smaller which can have a really high impact experience with those families and really move them through their life journey, if you will. Jason Diamond: Yeah, there’s a lot to unpack there and we’ll get to some of the elements of how you run the business today. First of all, you can’t fool me by using a toy company as your example to make investment banking more interesting. I’m just kidding. Actually, my real takeaway there is you have a skillset that is incredibly relevant in the current wealth management ecosystem, especially in the model you’re currently in. So let’s talk about that a little. Tell us about your current chapter, which is Panoramic Capital Partners. Who do you serve? What types of clients? Give me some perspective on size as well. Nick Hubert: I’m going to take this first. Taylor can do the PE background side and give you a bunch of numbers. I’ll give you the story and see if we can piece it together that way. Jason Diamond: I get the impression you guys use that line a lot. Nick Hubert: Oh, no, that’s the first time. How’d it land? Jason, I spent eight years at our prior firm with our third founding partner, Andrew, and he was at that firm for 30 years. And so we’ve got this core DNA that we’ve always carried of serving high net worth families in a very holistic and deep planning-based capacity, which I think a lot of modern firms say that. And so that’s not necessarily that different, but it is a DNA that carries through. When we got struck with this vision of launching Panoramic and what inspired us to build the firm, it was as, Taylor outlined, around this idea of how do we partner with entrepreneurs and business owners more holistically across their entire entrepreneurial journey, not just around the exit as is so often where the gravity of the conversation sits. And so our firm vision and inspiration was all around that. And since launching in May of 2024, it has been about how do we bring that vision to life with a different business model. And to your point, there’s a bunch to unpack there, but that is ultimately the founding vision of what we are trying to build here overall and what inspires us every day to say, how do we, as Taylor mentioned, bring the combination of skillsets to bear in a way that allows us to be a better partner along the entirety of the journey as opposed to just towards the end when assets traditionally show up, so to speak? So that’s a story from a vision perspective. Taylor, I don’t know what you want to add to that. Taylor Gentry: As Nick outlined, it’s the ability to work with folks throughout the lifecycle. So in private equity, you invest in a company, you work with that management team for three to seven years and then you sell the business and move on to the next project or deal. And really, it’s the deal mechanic that is the value creation. Whereas, with what we are building here, we have the opportunity to really step along the journey with folks when they are in the early phases building what we talk about as the middle phase of allocating, and we’ll talk about this further, and then really the third phase of stewarding capital along the way. And it’s a life cycle or entrepreneurial journey that we’re able to be hand in hand with folks over decades opposed to measured in three to five year spans. Jason Diamond: So it sounds, and you’ve both kind of touched on this now, your different backgrounds, you view as very much a positive because it gives you, Taylor, the more in the weeds analytical perspective. Nick, you’re probably more the storyteller. Do you find that to be a benefit when you’re running your firm every day? And are there instances when it’s a negative? Is there ever a time when you say, Taylor, just maybe more for you, not coming from this world, you don’t speak the same language? Nick Hubert: Do you want me to drop off the call so Taylor can be honest and he can give you the scoop and then he can jump off and I’ll give you the scoop? Taylor Gentry: Jason, we talk about that a lot, honestly. I think it is atypical for someone with my background to step into the wealth space maybe more so. And we leverage that because we have the ability to work with folks on how do you drive value in the company, how do you set the business up for a potential sale exit or transition internally? But this business, historically, we’ve talked about it as almost like two tracks. You have Taylor on the quote unquote business consulting or the business work track and you have Nick on a wealth management track. It’s really not the case. And really, the power is the ability for these two pieces to come together and there isn’t a conversation we have with clients where those two perspectives and backgrounds or contexts aren’t married into one to create really truly holistic advice. And so Nick will probably tell you otherwise, but I haven’t seen an area yet where our two backgrounds has been a negative. It’s actually been immensely positive. And then on top of it, in terms of kind of building out the firm, Nick is more of a traction visionary and I’m more of the traction implementer. What’s amazing about it from our perspective is the partnership we have allows us to, A, recognize that, B, name it, and then C, leverage it in terms of being able to dole out duties and maximize our success together. Jason Diamond: Nick, anything you’d add? Nick Hubert: I think that’s all right. I mean, Jason, your question was from an operational perspective. I think a lot of Taylor’s view is from a client perspective, which is spot on that the overlap of that is really helpful for clients and I think what allows it to be a different experience for them. Internally, operationally, I think that where you could see friction there amongst partners with differences, and I think you do see that, and at the same time, Google was the one who did team research 15 years ago where they put out what you really want, is similarity and vision and differences in skillset when building a team. And so I think we’ve been intentional about that and it’s been really helpful for… Taylor and I functionally met in a quasi-professional setting back in 2011 and developed a friendship quickly, so we’ve got that deep level of friendship that underpins all of it. And same with Andrew and our time working together. So part of it is there’s just such a strength of relationship amongst us that we give space for each other’s differences and look for those as assets as opposed to negatives, but in some sense, beauty in the eye of the beholder as is the case with anything. Jason Diamond: Yep. I appreciate you adding that context. I’ll be honest that when I first encountered your firm, my reaction was your core value prop of serving business owners is not all that differentiated. And then I learned more about the way in which you serve business owners. Can you talk about that? Because a lot of advisors in general, but then I think more specifically, a lot of RIAs would say, “We service primarily business owners.” Tell me how do you do it in a way that’s different and meaningful? Nick Hubert: I’ll take a first stab at that and then Taylor can maybe add on with specific stories. The wealth space is an awesome business and it’s a place where it’s very difficult to differentiate. And so we think a lot about that through the lens of how do we grow this business well for the long period of time to create opportunities for clients and employees. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about that, not only for the sake of differentiation, but also how do we actually just continue to add value to clients? Because if we add value in a different way, growth will take care of itself. I’d say one way of cutting that is we revisit the mission is through this idea of, okay, if I want to be a partner along the journey, it’s about more than a single transaction, more than a single exit, whatever that might be, or a series of transactions as wealth is often created over a series of transactions. It’s this idea of how do we focus on wealth creation and driving business value as the engine of wealth creation for entrepreneurs and what we call personal significance, which is the life of the entrepreneur. And so there’s a next click down framing of our framework that we work through that lens. I think the most important piece for us has been how do we build a business model that actually brings that to life and that’s the trick because we can say that, and if we basically still just operate out of an AUM-based or an asset advisory fee-based business, the reality is my incentive is still towards getting assets out of the entrepreneurial environment, so to speak, into a place that I can manage them, which may or may not be the best thing for the entrepreneur based on where they are at. And so our current work continues to be around how do we build that business model. So layering in different ways of engaging, whether it’s a retainer fee or some other way of engaging so we can start earlier when assets aren’t there and actually encourage the entrepreneur, “No, keep reinvesting in your business. It’s your highest rate of return right now and it’s where the investment needs to go.” I don’t want to have a conflict in giving that advice. And so I think step two here has been building that business model from an actual engagement perspective to enable us to enact the vision. And then I think the third piece is how do we then build tools that are different than just evaluating pre-exit planning, and as is so often, the toolkit, but actually saying, okay, what are the value drivers of a business? And this is probably where Taylor has a lot more to add because it’s 101 of the PE model, but how do we take the mission and vision of an entrepreneur, what we call north stars, translate those into value drivers, ensure those tie to strategic initiatives in the business, ensure it ties to reporting, and ultimately, how capital is allocated between the business and other investments? So then that’s our toolkit that we continue to build out to deploy the mission through our business model with tools that back it up. So that’s how we frame it right now. Taylor, we can share stories about how that’s come to fruition to create different outcomes. Jason Diamond: Taylor, I’d love to hear that. Let me just add maybe my understanding, because this is what helped me, I think, to really understand how you defer, and Nick and Taylor, correct me if I’m wrong, it sounds like the typical advisor thinks about an entrepreneur, a business owner relationship as the next liquidity event in most cases. And you take the viewpoint that it’s a journey, in some instances, 30 years in the making. It’s not even about liquidity event might come that’s beside the point. Is that a fair summary? Taylor Gentry: Yeah. We talk about it as a growing business is a healthy business, a business that is creating incremental value and adding to the multiple in terms of how the business is valued in the marketplace is a healthy business. And so whether you are going to sell that business or retain that business into perpetuity, let’s make a really valuable business and grow a very healthy business. And that’s what we do with clients. Nick laid out the north star framework. And so how do we actually go about engaging with folks on a practical level? It does start with the north star framework. It’s got five steps to it as Nick outlined in terms of defining the north star, where we’re going, what we’re trying to do and that’s across those three pillars, personal significance, personal wealth and business value. And that personal significance has to be held at that same level. Otherwise, we find folks that are mid 50s, their business is crazy valuable, they’ve got a lot of dollars, but their family life isn’t where they want it to be because they didn’t take care of that along the way. So we lay out a place map that says, “Hey, these are the north stars that we are aligning on and coming back to every month when we work with these owners.” We then push that into, okay, what are we trying to do on the business side of the equation? Let’s lay out what is going to drive the value of the business from a multiple and enterprise value perspective. We push that into a set of strategic initiatives that is tactical, who owns what, when’s it getting done, and are we red, yellow or green on it? We then build out the performance reporting package with folks. And so that is a monthly reporting package that says what happened last month and what operational data are we looking at to be able to improve the business month over month and get a good feedback loop going into the company. And then the last piece is around capital allocation that Nick mentioned where if the business generates a million dollars, where’s that capital going? I think there’s a lot in there and it’s really deep, but if you zoom all the way back out, it’s take a private equity style playbook where private equity firms come and invest in a company. And what do they do after close? They put in place good financial reporting, good operational reporting, and then hold the team accountable to that reporting and those results on a monthly, quarterly, and annual basis. And so this is not rocket science or something that’s never been seen before. It’s just most business owners that have never experienced this private equity world don’t have access to it and don’t know how to go about doing it. It’s a relatively long process to get that installed with companies and with teams to really dig in and understand it, but it’s building out those packages to be able to say, “Okay, what happened last month? What changes do we need to make and what are we doing from a initiative perspective to drive the business forward?” So to Nick’s point, it was previously, this was all about liquidity planning or from a wealth management perspective, it’s about the exit. This is about how do we make a more valuable business along the way, and that’s going to be good for the entrepreneur as they move through the journey. Nick Hubert: When we were around the dinner table, the proverbial dinner table creating the vision of this firm, it was around this idea of the silver tsunami and everything that everybody reads in the headlines of this massive wave of transition, this generational transition of business ownership that we could help facilitate. So we launched with that thesis in some sense. In addition to this broader journey perspective, we have gotten to this place by following the market and listening to what entrepreneurs actually want through the big unlock was honestly in a deal process with one of our clients where we realized, “This is a great deal. This person’s going to put a ton of money in their pockets, secure their future,” and it’s completely the wrong outcome for the entrepreneur because it’s thinking all about the deal, not thinking about what this person didn’t want was an exit. They wanted a different relationship with their business, and that required, what do you actually want out of life, that personal significance piece? And it required, “Hey, if we can actually create a layer of team members and reporting that allows you to manage this like a board chair would do as opposed to a highly engaged CEO. That’s actually what you want. You don’t want out of this business. You want to still have this be a huge rock in your life.” And so we’ve ran through that door, said no to the deal with them and have been building the infrastructure around this, and that was the unlock and aha moment for us. There’s something bigger here and that’s what then inspired, in some sense, the broader build out of the toolkit, but I think puts more meat on the bone of actually saying no to a deal, which is not the classic wealth manager outcome to get to a way better outcome for the client and is ultimately still an awesome client for us as a firm and somebody that we can go build with for the next 20 years. I think just telling it through the lens of a story that’s different than what’s normal, so to speak, is a way to frame that up. Jason Diamond: It’s such a hyper focus on a fairly long-term and honestly nebulous potential outcome. You don’t have certainty. That, I think, is why most advisors would prefer the near-term liquidity. I mean, it’s not a secret, right? You can bill on assets, firms are incentivizing it and it’s a pretty direct recipe to net new asset growth, but it’s certainly a refreshing point of view. It resonates with me. I’m wondering if it’s resonated with clients and prospects. I guess what I’m asking is, do they feel that this is something different than the typical wealth management experience for this type of client? Nick Hubert: Yeah, Taylor, tell that story of the guy who said, “I’ve had this, but I felt alone.” I think that story of partnership, you tell pretty well. Taylor Gentry: Yeah. Jason, it was actually that same client, he had a investment banker, a wealth manager, attorney, and a CPA. CPA said, “The deal’s terrible, you shouldn’t do the deal.” Investment bankers obviously incentivized to do the deal. And so he’s saying, “You should do the deal.” That’s how he gets paid. He had a wealth manager who was silent and he had an attorney who just pushing paperwork. Jason Diamond: It’s like the start of a bad joke. Taylor Gentry: Yeah. No, seriously, it’s pretty remarkable. It’s like this guy did what he was supposed to do. He put the team of resources around himself. He got professionals in the seat. It’s that no one could connect the dots of all four of those people because they have the seat of those four people. And so it’s really resonated because there’s an ability to see a bigger picture and connect these dots and say, “Okay, this investment banker is saying X because of A, B and C.” And the CPA is saying it’s a bad deal and that it’s not a market deal. It’s 100% a market deal. This deal is right down the fairway in terms of what the market should value your company at and they just don’t understand how the transaction mechanics should work. And so it’s worked really well from that perspective of being able to be the quarterback or centralized point or personal CFO for folks in understanding where interests lie and also being able to think about what they are pursuing in a bit of a different lens. I think the second piece on that is where does it resonate for folks? I think that there is a gap in the marketplace that we are still working to close, and that gap is that business owners do not know what this monthly reporting package looks like. They do not know what really good reporting on their business looks like in terms of they have always run their… You’ve got a business owner. They’ve run their business for 10 or 20 years. They have a pulse on the business from their gut feel. That does not mean that the business has been optimized, is ready to go to the next level or is ready for a transaction and go through a transaction because they have not done the work on the backend to understand the moving pieces of the business at a granular level. This recording package, we oftentimes get this confusion around, well, I’ve got a temporary CFO or a controller or X, Y, Z. That is very different than what we’re talking about. Well, that is all accounting, close the books, have clean numbers. What we’re talking about is how do I marry operational data in the business, number of units ships, number of jobs completed, time on job, operational data to the financials in the business so I can then go make adjustments operationally on how to improve the business and continue taking steps forward. Jason Diamond: It’s very clear. Nick, anything you’d want to add to that? Nick Hubert: I’d say it’s easy to still cut that from a deal lens and say, look, when an investment partner comes to evaluate a business to sit in their seat for a moment, they’re going to look at the replicability of what that leader has done without that leader still in the seat. And if so many businesses are still reliant on that person and this gets talked about as processes, reporting systems, that ultimately results in a discount to the value of the business because although it can be viewed… For the leader, it’s like, it’s that control thing that entrepreneurs deal with. It’s what made them good. It’s what got you there. And so that transition is really hard. And that’s important from a deal lens because that does a direct impact to value. And to widen out the scope beyond the deal and to think about the entrepreneur’s life, this goes back to the dynamic that a lot of times entrepreneurs look for the exits because they’ve built something that it’s now owning them and what they’ve built is not resulting in the life that they want. And so how can we use this system to actually change that relationship, as I mentioned earlier, with the business so that they can run it more like an executive might and get out of the knife fight, so to speak, that often is how this can feel for a lot of folks, even for pretty large businesses. It can just feel like you’re a firefighter, you’re in a knife fight, whatever you want to use for that terminology. I think it’s as much about creating a different life outcome and different relationship and owning and leading a business as it is in driving deal value. Jason Diamond: Taylor, maybe I’ll ask this of you. Forgive the question, but private equity, I think in our space, has a little bit of a negative stigma at the moment. I don’t think that’s true across the board. I think people appreciate generally the need for capital and there are certainly benefits of private equity. But I’ll say as a whole, advisors are, let’s say, suspicious of private equity. You ever get that pushback? Does anybody ever view your experience or the way you position the story as a negative? Taylor Gentry: I think most people that we talk to don’t know what private equity is. They may have seen it in the headlines. They may have some sort of connotation around it. They won’t come out and say that they don’t like it. They don’t know why they don’t like it. The average American business owner, they don’t know what it is or what it means. So yes, you do have to fight that because of the headline piece around private equity, bad actor ABC, and that’s what gets the headlines. I think what private equity is really good at is taking a business that is not optimized or not running on systems and processes that it can run on. Again, it’s not rocket science is not crazy hard. It’s just the private equity world has created ways to install systems and process that improve the value of the business by way of providing visibility to financials and operations in a way that the owner previously didn’t have. And so for us, we view it not by any means as the end all be all or the answer. There are clients we’ve worked with that have taken private equity capital and grown successfully, executed on some acquisitions and then exited again. There are clients that have evaluated those transactions and said, “Hey, not for me.” We are actually fairly agnostic to it. What we really spend a lot of our time on is what are we solving for? What’s the end game? How do we use this private equity transaction to get to where we’re trying to go and is it what we want at the end of the day? Because the reality is, if you’re going to stay on and run that business with private equity investment in, there’s a higher expectation on what you need to do Monday morning than when you owned it yourself and it was a little bit of your personal piggy bank too. Jason Diamond: I love it because you bring it back to the north star concept. Taylor Gentry: Yes, that’s exactly right. It’s what are we solving for and what game are we playing to be able to get to where we ultimately want to go? And for, as Nick mentioned that client that turned down the deal, it was a private equity investment. We got very clear with that, “Hey, here are going to be the expectations. You will have a monthly financial reporting call. You’re going to have quarterly board meetings.” These are things that need to happen in this business to be able to upgrade the management and cadence in this company. You don’t have to do it all tomorrow, but that is how you make a more valuable company, is installing some of these systems, process and cadence. And so we’re working with him now on doing that, just in a private context instead of in the private equity backed environment. Nick Hubert: I think there are three things embedded in this. I’d say number one, to Taylor’s point, this is a massive black box, in some ways by design. Wall Street’s had not a great reputation for a very long time of putting things behind the paywall, so to speak. And so we think a lot about our job as empowerment and education. Jason Diamond: Education, yep. Nick Hubert: Yeah. And so part of it is just, number one, how do we just demystify this thing and name things and take away the go to or bad? Because it can be that, but it should not be that from a core basis. That’s number one. Number two, a lot of entrepreneurs feel like they cannot get access to this ability to professionalize or level up or whatever these things are without bringing on that investment partner. And so part of our motivation is how do we actually bring this skillset in without needing to bring on an investment partner because oftentimes, that investment partner comes when you’re done, and so you don’t actually get to experience it. That’s number two. Number three is, Jason, part of your point earlier was like there’s still a trap here of potentially being able to get motivated primarily by the exit. And so again, that gets back to our business model, making sure our price Racing is right, all that good stuff. And it’s also the reality that a lot of businesses, if you just look at a very broad scope of American businesses, a lot of them don’t have value in the marketplace in a massively material way and/or won’t exit in a traditional way. And so the wealth creation journey then becomes much more of a conversation of, how do we manage the balance between investing in the company and distributing out of the company to invest elsewhere because we should actually be creating investment assets along the way because when you get to the exit, there’s no better power position at the moment of exit than already having financial security to some degree and giving you choice in the right deal, not the highest and best deal because you need to fill the piggy bank for retirement. Jason Diamond: I just want to be sure to ask because you did mention a couple times your pricing structure. How have you set it up so that you can be more agnostic about this as opposed to the typical… You want to talk about it for a minute? Nick Hubert: As it’s structured now, it starts with a retainer earlier on where we are working… As Taylor mentioned, we are going deep in the operational build of the business. We will do that on a monthly retainer. We’re engaging consistently. As assets get built up and if assets get built up, we start to chew that retainer down as assets go up. I think what we are ideally trying to figure out, and still honestly have not figured out yet, is how do we get to parity so that we don’t create an… I want to be able to work agnostically with a client to say- Jason Diamond: Yeah, I love it. Nick Hubert: … regardless of how I’m engaging with you, that’s the goal. So I’d say we haven’t cracked the code on exactly what that is yet, but mechanically, we’ve got the levers to pull to say how we price and move that retainer down is basically allowing to keep it at par, so to speak, for the client and allowing us to say, “I’m here to engage in making the best wealth creation outcome for you along the way, whether that’s investing in the business or investing outside the business.” Jason Diamond: I think that’s the right recipe. I agree. The levers can be fine-tuned, but to me, that’s the model you want to create where you can credibly look your prospects and clients in the eyes and tell them, “Our job is to serve you in the best way… We’re sitting on the same side of the table as you.” I want to turn this inward for a second. The home cooking concept. M&A, within the RIA independent space, is obviously a hot topic. Have you thought about it? Do you think it’s a critical part of a potential growth trajectory of a healthy, independent firm? I’m curious your perspective. I feel you, Taylor in particular, probably have a unique lens on this coming from the world you came from. Taylor Gentry: Yeah, Jason, I think if Nick and I wanted to put as much money as we possibly could in our pockets as fast as humanly possible. It’s a pretty easy recipe. It’s go get some private equity capital backer, roll up a few RIAs, get to a few billion of AUM and then sell it to the next private equity firm or roll it to the next private equity firm, do that a few times. We’d all make plenty of money and go on our way. We’ve been really intentional on this front, and again, I talk about this is what we want to do for the next 30 plus years. And really being intentional around building a business that has that enduring nature to it, decided to take private equity capital on, you are on a shot clock to some degree. Yes, you’re trying to build a best business, all of those pieces. You get cadence. You get capital. There’s a ton of value there, but you are on a shot clock that is not a shot clock we’re trying to get on at this stage. I’d say we opportunistically are looking at acquisitions. So we think about it, and Nick and I talk about it all the time, how much of our time should we be spending on acquisitions? And we think of it as 80/20 or even 90/10, 80% or 90% organic growth-focused, 10 to 20% acquisitions-focused. And so we’re actively evaluating those consistently and see deals on a monthly basis that we look at and evaluate, but it’s less of the focus today than it could be down the road. Jason Diamond: And Nick, do you think of that when you guys talk? Do you guys call that your true north? Do you think the same way you coach your clients and prospects to say, “For right now, it wouldn’t be the right move for us to take private equity capital and to do this acquisition rollup strategy because A, B and C are more important for us”? Nick Hubert: Yes. I think if we take our life north star for Taylor. I’m speaking for Taylor, but we’re close and so we share this of… To Taylor’s point, the life outcome of scaling that quickly with that type of capital backing is likely to create a life that I don’t actually want that’s not good for me, not good for my family, and honestly, not good for our clients at this point. And so that overrides in this case, even though the wealth, north star might say, “Hey, absolutely do that.” At some point something has to win. And so that is true. At the business side, as the north star is motivated by this mission of the entire entrepreneur journey, the worst thing I could do is shortcut my ability to be on that journey for a long period of time. One of our friends in this space says, “The best thing I can do for my clients is still be in the seat 30 years from now because I’ve lived a good life that enables that.” And I think that’s spot on for us, is everything, it’s so easy in today’s world to be consumed by short-termism and we are intentional in ensuring that we don’t succumb to that. While still recognizing to your point, I mean, you’re in this all day, Jason, right? There’s a massive opportunity in front of us to be thoughtful about how acquisitions fit into this. And I think we want to be open to that in a way that ensures we just don’t lose the core of the goodness of what we’re trying to build. Jason Diamond: I think that’s the right answer. The only wrong answer in my mind is we’re not open to this or we’re closed to it. To not at least be opportunistically aware of the dynamics in the market, I think is naive. But also, I’ll be honest, Nick, when I think about the concept of the north star, I have a hard time imagining, because we use a similar concept when we counsel advisors. What is your true north or your north star and your best business life, whatever you want to call it? To me, it does include absolutely the personal piece. I think it’s hard to define it only on the economic verticals because, I mean, I think about this for a transitioning advisor. Almost never is the conversation about crunch the spreadsheet and get us the biggest check possible. It’s, yeah, sure, transition capital is important, but it’s let’s also, we want a better work life and we want freedom to market and blah, blah, blah. To me, I think it’s a completely fair way. You two are looking at it at least for now and I assume you reserve the right to revise that opinion down the line. Nick Hubert: I think acquiring for size and scale is as often the headline is, yeah, we’re not into that at this point because I think… And yet, hey, if the right acquisition with the right people came along in that, we’d be extremely excited and would move very quickly to execute on that. So it’s a little bit of a both hand. Taylor Gentry: Yeah. Jason, I think it goes without saying, but my background on having done a bunch of transactions of businesses like this, it’s a natural fit for us to have this as a lever. And so we are looking at deals. We just haven’t prioritized it as the top priority. Jason Diamond: I think also where you are, 2024 was the launch of the business. It’s pretty common to see, all right, let’s nail this, let’s get our feet under us, client service model and then we’ll start to think about that down the line. A couple other things I want to ask you about running an independent firm. This is a pretty glowingly positive review, I think, of your ability to service clients, your ability to grow and to build and run the business that you want. Has there been anything negative that you haven’t enjoyed about running and operating this business, other than working with each other, of course? Nick Hubert: No, I was going to say, I’m like, can we get Taylor off the call again? Taylor Gentry: Jason, maybe I’ll take a first cut at it. I think for both Nick and I, it’s just the administrative components of running an independent business that we don’t enjoy candidly. I don’t think many people would. That said, you come full circle and it is a pretty glowingly positive review of running an independent business because we get to run it in the way that we see fit. And oh, by the way, we use the same things that we use with our clients. So the value drivers we’ve talked about, we have a value drivers worksheet. We refresh it every six months. Nick, Andrew, and I get together every six months and we’re 18 months into this thing and we’ve already got this cadence and system to it, if you will. So I personally really enjoy the running the business piece of it from a macro perspective. Yeah, I’m responsible for running our fee billing and running the math on all that and getting that done, for example. Jason Diamond: I think that’s actually a very thoughtful answer. And I appreciate you saying I enjoy running… I feel the same way, by the way. There’s some elements of running a business that I think are immensely fun. I think it gets painted with this brush of, “Ugh, running the business is the hassle and I want to work in the business.” Agreed, nobody likes invoicing and accounts receivable for the most part, but Nick, what are your thoughts on this? Nick Hubert: Yeah, I think mine is different a little bit coming from a different background where it’s easier for me to sit with the rose-colored glasses of the joy of the freedom that we have in this model. At the same time, when I’m counseling folks who are talking with folks or mentoring folks, younger people who are thinking about, “Okay, I want to go start my own thing,” I’m like, “Hey, it’s like I’m the same way. I want to look in the mirror and think I’m the boss or I’m one of the bosses and we get to go build this.” Then the reality is, at the end of the day, if there was something that you didn’t want to do that had to get done and you didn’t do it, you got to look in the mirror and be like, “Well, you’re the boss, you didn’t do it.” It’s the both sides of the coin that I think a positive, negative cut is one way to look at that because it can feel that way sometimes. And the reality is every job has 20 to 30% of it that you just don’t enjoy doing, and that’s totally true. Jason Diamond: It’s why they call it work. That’s why they pay you. Nick Hubert: They’d be pretty quick to point out that I’m the one of the partnership group that they’re going to have to chase for a smaller administrative item because, yeah, I honestly, just similarly speaking, don’t enjoy that. I want to go talk to clients. I want to go focus on building what we’re building. In finance speaks, it is a higher beta to just the all encompassing realities of running a business that is really hard to underscore without being in the seat. And yeah, there’s definitely 20 to 30% of that I would love to wave a magic wand and say, I don’t have to do anymore. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I appreciate that. Nick Hubert: You can’t have one without the other. It’s both sides. Jason Diamond: I think it’s getting easier and I think it’s getting more offloadable and some of it probably gets more… In some ways, more offloadable as you scale, but then you get a new set of problems, probably two, because you’re dealing with bigger… It’s a never ending. I think most business owners would agree with that. And you said it well, you take the good with the bad and overwhelmingly, most people we speak with in the independent space feel as you do, which is, are there things I would prefer to offload or that I would prefer not to do? Of course, but that’s almost just the price you pay for the freedom and for doing all the things you want to do. Two more questions that I want to be sure to ask about where this has been a great episode. One is AI. Need to know your thoughts. Is this coming for our jobs? Do you think your firm is positioned to capture either asset flows or also just to leverage this technology and use it to serve clients better? Just give me your thoughts. Nick Hubert: I think, in some sense, it would be irresponsible as people this early in our entrepreneurial journey and thinking about how do we optimize what we do for clients to not be engaging with AI in some way, shape or form, at least in an evaluative posture. So we are actively, in a bunch of different ways, whether it’s buy it off the shelf or build it, continuing to find ways to think about, not only how do we drive efficiency, because there’s an obvious surface level dynamic of if I can save time and spend more time with clients, that is a go to thing objectively. And there’s this deeper dynamic of if it can amplify what… Actually, back to your prior question, if it can amplify what I’m best at and enjoy and reduce what I don’t enjoy, that’s a massive win. And I think we’re on the surface of seeing that. That’s the opportunity we are motivated by that and pursuing that. And at the same time, I would say an operational principle that really is important to us, and you can almost call it a north star within the business is client security can never be put at risk for the sake of our own growth, our own efficiency, or anything else. There’s, I think, still a question mark as to how we think about trusting this. And so we are very cautious as we think about we will never try to move so quickly on any technology, whether it’s AI or otherwise that we risk our clients in some way, shape or form, because the reality is we are also in a context where AI is, when pulled, one of the least popular things happening in the world today for the average American. And so there’s no kudos here for being a leader. Jason Diamond: I totally agree. The first mover advantage here is slim to none. Nick Hubert: Yeah, you don’t want to be the one sticking your neck out on this in our industry. And yet there still objectively has a potential to be better for the clients. Navigating that I think is messy. Taylor Gentry: I think the only thing I’d add, which is pretty short, is the use of these tools has the ability to create a better deliverable for clients on a more consistent basis. And marrying that with exactly what Nick just outlined around the risk is really the magic piece here. And so I think, to the extent we can get it implemented effectively with the security, but also with, this is going to result in a lot better outcome for clients across the board, that’s a pretty attractive objective to go after and it’s pretty exciting to be in the industry with that now on the forefront in terms of ability to improve that experience over time. Jason Diamond: Yeah. No, that’s a good color to add. I want to end here with a potential HR violation, but you’ll forgive me. I’m not going to ask about age, but you are clearly both relatively young advisors. And this is a hot button issue in our industry, the idea that there are not a lot of talented, young next gen advisors at a time when a lot of gen one or older advisors are retiring out of the business. So what would you say… I think one of you made the comment earlier, it’s not necessarily the coolest industry to go into at 23 years old right out of school. I think more commonly people go into sales and trading, investment banking or some of the other finance verticals. What would you say to younger folks interested in wealth? And maybe I’d ask also, do you have any thoughts on how we solve this next gen talent crisis? And if you’re both secretly 90 years old, you can just do it. Taylor Gentry: You talking my internal age or my actual age? Jason Diamond: Why don’t you go first? Nick Hubert: Yeah, go ahead, Taylor. Taylor Gentry: I think there’s two threads here. The first is it’s not a sexy industry to go into and not as sexy as an investment banking, private equity shtick, if you will. I think from my perspective, it’s really important what you’re working on. The ability to be in a firm like what we are building with the diversity of work that is available is a little bit like the world’s your oyster and we’re designing it with that in mind. For Nick and I, the ability to work on many different situations throughout the day and throughout the week is actually why this business is so attractive and interesting and why we want to do it for 30 years. And so we’re building with that context. And so, in some ways, it’s almost like a plug for younger advisors, the ability to work in a firm like what we’re building where you’ve got this diversity of work that is not just trading stocks and bonds or just spreadsheeting or just financial planning. This is a much broader expression and experience than what I would call “traditional” wealth management. So I think that’s the key on that front. Then, on the talent development side of the equation, if you will, this AI thing is going to be a big question mark. And what I mean by that is there is significant training that will be required in, call it traditional wealth management or the firm we’re building with regard to folks’ ability to actually learn when you can plug it into AI and get an answer that you don’t have to critically question or think through. And so there’s going to be a significant learning curve for folks that we’re going to have to continue to train and educate on in order to produce talent that can be long-term sustainable and beneficial for clients more writ large. Jason Diamond: Nick. Nick Hubert: Well, first and foremost, we haven’t given our third partner enough here of time. I think we have a tremendous benefit of having a multi-generational team at the partnership level where he’s in his mid to late 50s and can bring that additional experience to bear and as is necessary, and as is important because investing is an experienced business and a lot of clients want that. And so the power of that matters. I think that actually speaks to firms being willing to think of partnership at that level that partnership is not reserved for just once you’ve been there for a long time. So I think it’s getting at like, how do you share ownership earlier, do it in a way that is actually giving people a stake in the outcome and allowing that elevation to happen. I think that’s number one. Number two, honestly, the existence of people like you and your team and that your family has built over the years, Jason, is awesome. And because of the ability for you to help people navigate and see how easy it is to actually run this business and build this business in some sense… And that’s in the broader spectrum of having seen. We work with so many different types of companies. We sometimes say our business is so much easier to run and it has come so far with technology and with people like you who are providers to us to allow it to be easier for us so to speak. That’s a big deal. I think that should be talked about more that there is a massive… What that allows is more time to, as Taylor mentioned, build what you actually want because you can outsource the compliance piece in a major way that allows you to not spend as much time on that as you used to. So I don’t think that gets talked about enough. And I think if you just zoom out and view this in the perspective of post-2020, there was this massive movement of entrepreneurship through acquisitions and people looking at this idea of how do I get the life I want by way of not having to be on a two-year clock to go to the next job to the next job. Have something that I can have a long-term impact on where I get to build something and have employees. This is the perfect space for that because it’s such an awesome business where you get to work so intimately with people and clients and their life outcomes. They’re, again, relatively speaking, easier businesses to run relative to what’s out there. I’m just baffled by the fact that it is not seen a larger wave of younger people coming out of these more “traditional” paths and seeing this as an awesome place when they’re willing to go buy an HVAC company. This is so much easier than that. So honestly, I think part of it’s just we all live coming from being in this space longer, we get stuck in our wealth management lane and I think it’s easy to then nitpick and get stuck in there. But when we take a more global perspective, it’s a massive opportunity that I hope more people take advantage of. Jason Diamond: Thank you for highlighting that. We call it the ecosystem of support for financial advisors, and it’s gotten so much more robust through the years. And a lot of times, people focus on the negatives of compliance burdens have gotten heavier and competition has gotten fiercer. And yes, that’s all true, but the flip side is the point you just made, Nick. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Any last words of wisdom you’d want to share with our audience? This has been a fantastic episode and I can’t wait to have you back on to revisit the growth trajectory. Nick Hubert: Yeah, I’d say just thank you for the time. We’ll plug the podcast. We’ve enjoyed you guys for a really long time and being able to have the resource of what you guys have built is actually… In our partnership meetings, we’re bringing you guys up with some consistency. So thank you for the gift that you are to the industry and continuing to create opportunity for folks like us to come on here. Jason Diamond: Thank you so much. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients, but are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery, is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.   True Alignment: Advising Business Owners on Wealth, Significance, and Value A conversation with Jason Diamond, Nick Hubert and Taylor Gentry – Founding Partners at Panoramic Capital Partners. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is True Alignment: Advising Business Owners on Wealth, Significance, and Value. It’s a conversation with Nick Hubert and Taylor Gentry, Founding Partners, Panoramic Capital Partners. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: Advisory firms that work with business owner clients typically operate through a fairly traditional wealth management lens. The business may be the source of the wealth, but the advice itself often centers around investments, planning, and asset allocation, yet Panoramic Capital Partners approaches that equation differently. Nick Hubert and Taylor Gentry are the founding partners of the roughly $450 million RIA, serving about 150 families with a seven-person team. And while they come from very different professional backgrounds, Nick with more of a relationship and storytelling orientation, Taylor from the analytical and private equity side, they’ve built the firm around a shared philosophy tied to what they call personal significance, personal wealth, and personal value. A big part of that philosophy, or the north star as they put it, is applying some of the same accountability and long-term thinking frameworks commonly seen in private equity to the advisory relationship itself, not in a transactional sense, but in helping clients think more intentionally about decision-making, alignment, and outcomes over long periods of time. As a result, our conversation delves deeply into the private equity world, reframing how clients and advisors should consider this important tool as both a growth mechanism and a strategic part of their client’s plans. We talk about how that perspective also shapes not only how they think about serving business owners specifically, but also the role private equity should play in wealth management. Then we take a view of their long runway and how they and other younger advisors might see things differently about building firms today and why clarity of vision may matter more than sheer scale in the years ahead, and much, much more. It’s a narrative that is refreshing and informative, so let’s get to it. Taylor, Nick, thank you so much for joining. Walk us through your background. What brought you to the world of wealth management? Nick, let’s start with you. Nick Hubert: Sure. I think I got my first taste of the industry actually in a sophomore year of college internship, or I interned at Morgan Stanley here in Oregon. I studied finance and accounting at University of Oregon, and so I had this affinity for finance and markets and had that privilege of having that internship. So I had it early on in my career. Ultimately ended up setting my sights on doing investment banking and going that route and did that for a short period of time. Ended up not going very long due to a medical reason, so you don’t have to be that sorry for me. And ultimately started my career in business consulting before pretty quickly realizing that I want to get back to finance, back to investing these things that just felt like core competencies and that thing that you keep coming back to when you’re alone in the middle of the night thinking about stuff, it was always that. Just had this desire to work with smaller units than large corporations, which is great for wealth where you get to work with families and small businesses. And so it was just a natural alignment that took me back full-time to the space in 2016. Jason Diamond: I like the framing it through the size of the unit you’re working with and having more of an impact on the family. Taylor, what about you? Taylor Gentry: I’m a little more circuitous, if you will. Spent a couple of years in investment banking, so you can be sorry for me. Nick and I met in undergrad at the University of Oregon, had the opportunity to work in this investment group together where we were investing a portion of the university’s endowment. And like Nick, interned in wealth management and kind of walked away from it going, “Boy, that’s boring. I don’t really like that.” And so moved to New York, cut my teeth in banking for a couple years and we were working… So an investment bank for context, helping companies raise debt, raise equity, and with mergers and acquisitions, we’re working with huge companies. So the Mattels of the world, the largest toy company in the world. Like Nick, realized, “Hey, I’m going to work with smaller companies that we can get our arms around a little bit better and be more helpful with and have a bigger impact on.” So spent about 10 years with a private equity firm in the western half of the US and we invested in companies in what’s referred to as the lower middle market. So companies doing 50 to 300 million of revenue. And we would invest in those companies, grow those businesses and then look to sell them. Awesome experience, learned a ton, got a bunch of experience around how to invest in companies, how to grow businesses. Then had the opportunity to step into the CFO seat of a couple of different operating companies during that time. It was just a great learning ground, but also to see a whole bunch of different situations. Nick and I have always invested in things together. We’ve worked on things together and we’ve always wanted to work together full time. And a few years ago, the stars really just aligned to say, “Hey, what would it look like to create a differentiated offering in the wealth space where we can blend my background on companies, transactions, how to draw on scale and all those pieces and really marry that with the wealth management piece?” And Nick will get into that further, but it’s just a really unique way to partner with families and companies that are smaller which can have a really high impact experience with those families and really move them through their life journey, if you will. Jason Diamond: Yeah, there’s a lot to unpack there and we’ll get to some of the elements of how you run the business today. First of all, you can’t fool me by using a toy company as your example to make investment banking more interesting. I’m just kidding. Actually, my real takeaway there is you have a skillset that is incredibly relevant in the current wealth management ecosystem, especially in the model you’re currently in. So let’s talk about that a little. Tell us about your current chapter, which is Panoramic Capital Partners. Who do you serve? What types of clients? Give me some perspective on size as well. Nick Hubert: I’m going to take this first. Taylor can do the PE background side and give you a bunch of numbers. I’ll give you the story and see if we can piece it together that way. Jason Diamond: I get the impression you guys use that line a lot. Nick Hubert: Oh, no, that’s the first time. How’d it land? Jason, I spent eight years at our prior firm with our third founding partner, Andrew, and he was at that firm for 30 years. And so we’ve got this core DNA that we’ve always carried of serving high net worth families in a very holistic and deep planning-based capacity, which I think a lot of modern firms say that. And so that’s not necessarily that different, but it is a DNA that carries through. When we got struck with this vision of launching Panoramic and what inspired us to build the firm, it was as, Taylor outlined, around this idea of how do we partner with entrepreneurs and business owners more holistically across their entire entrepreneurial journey, not just around the exit as is so often where the gravity of the conversation sits. And so our firm vision and inspiration was all around that. And since launching in May of 2024, it has been about how do we bring that vision to life with a different business model. And to your point, there’s a bunch to unpack there, but that is ultimately the founding vision of what we are trying to build here overall and what inspires us every day to say, how do we, as Taylor mentioned, bring the combination of skillsets to bear in a way that allows us to be a better partner along the entirety of the journey as opposed to just towards the end when assets traditionally show up, so to speak? So that’s a story from a vision perspective. Taylor, I don’t know what you want to add to that. Taylor Gentry: As Nick outlined, it’s the ability to work with folks throughout the lifecycle. So in private equity, you invest in a company, you work with that management team for three to seven years and then you sell the business and move on to the next project or deal. And really, it’s the deal mechanic that is the value creation. Whereas, with what we are building here, we have the opportunity to really step along the journey with folks when they are in the early phases building what we talk about as the middle phase of allocating, and we’ll talk about this further, and then really the third phase of stewarding capital along the way. And it’s a life cycle or entrepreneurial journey that we’re able to be hand in hand with folks over decades opposed to measured in three to five year spans. Jason Diamond: So it sounds, and you’ve both kind of touched on this now, your different backgrounds, you view as very much a positive because it gives you, Taylor, the more in the weeds analytical perspective. Nick, you’re probably more the storyteller. Do you find that to be a benefit when you’re running your firm every day? And are there instances when it’s a negative? Is there ever a time when you say, Taylor, just maybe more for you, not coming from this world, you don’t speak the same language? Nick Hubert: Do you want me to drop off the call so Taylor can be honest and he can give you the scoop and then he can jump off and I’ll give you the scoop? Taylor Gentry: Jason, we talk about that a lot, honestly. I think it is atypical for someone with my background to step into the wealth space maybe more so. And we leverage that because we have the ability to work with folks on how do you drive value in the company, how do you set the business up for a potential sale exit or transition internally? But this business, historically, we’ve talked about it as almost like two tracks. You have Taylor on the quote unquote business consulting or the business work track and you have Nick on a wealth management track. It’s really not the case. And really, the power is the ability for these two pieces to come together and there isn’t a conversation we have with clients where those two perspectives and backgrounds or contexts aren’t married into one to create really truly holistic advice. And so Nick will probably tell you otherwise, but I haven’t seen an area yet where our two backgrounds has been a negative. It’s actually been immensely positive. And then on top of it, in terms of kind of building out the firm, Nick is more of a traction visionary and I’m more of the traction implementer. What’s amazing about it from our perspective is the partnership we have allows us to, A, recognize that, B, name it, and then C, leverage it in terms of being able to dole out duties and maximize our success together. Jason Diamond: Nick, anything you’d add? Nick Hubert: I think that’s all right. I mean, Jason, your question was from an operational perspective. I think a lot of Taylor’s view is from a client perspective, which is spot on that the overlap of that is really helpful for clients and I think what allows it to be a different experience for them. Internally, operationally, I think that where you could see friction there amongst partners with differences, and I think you do see that, and at the same time, Google was the one who did team research 15 years ago where they put out what you really want, is similarity and vision and differences in skillset when building a team. And so I think we’ve been intentional about that and it’s been really helpful for… Taylor and I functionally met in a quasi-professional setting back in 2011 and developed a friendship quickly, so we’ve got that deep level of friendship that underpins all of it. And same with Andrew and our time working together. So part of it is there’s just such a strength of relationship amongst us that we give space for each other’s differences and look for those as assets as opposed to negatives, but in some sense, beauty in the eye of the beholder as is the case with anything. Jason Diamond: Yep. I appreciate you adding that context. I’ll be honest that when I first encountered your firm, my reaction was your core value prop of serving business owners is not all that differentiated. And then I learned more about the way in which you serve business owners. Can you talk about that? Because a lot of advisors in general, but then I think more specifically, a lot of RIAs would say, “We service primarily business owners.” Tell me how do you do it in a way that’s different and meaningful? Nick Hubert: I’ll take a first stab at that and then Taylor can maybe add on with specific stories. The wealth space is an awesome business and it’s a place where it’s very difficult to differentiate. And so we think a lot about that through the lens of how do we grow this business well for the long period of time to create opportunities for clients and employees. And so we spent a lot of time thinking about that, not only for the sake of differentiation, but also how do we actually just continue to add value to clients? Because if we add value in a different way, growth will take care of itself. I’d say one way of cutting that is we revisit the mission is through this idea of, okay, if I want to be a partner along the journey, it’s about more than a single transaction, more than a single exit, whatever that might be, or a series of transactions as wealth is often created over a series of transactions. It’s this idea of how do we focus on wealth creation and driving business value as the engine of wealth creation for entrepreneurs and what we call personal significance, which is the life of the entrepreneur. And so there’s a next click down framing of our framework that we work through that lens. I think the most important piece for us has been how do we build a business model that actually brings that to life and that’s the trick because we can say that, and if we basically still just operate out of an AUM-based or an asset advisory fee-based business, the reality is my incentive is still towards getting assets out of the entrepreneurial environment, so to speak, into a place that I can manage them, which may or may not be the best thing for the entrepreneur based on where they are at. And so our current work continues to be around how do we build that business model. So layering in different ways of engaging, whether it’s a retainer fee or some other way of engaging so we can start earlier when assets aren’t there and actually encourage the entrepreneur, “No, keep reinvesting in your business. It’s your highest rate of return right now and it’s where the investment needs to go.” I don’t want to have a conflict in giving that advice. And so I think step two here has been building that business model from an actual engagement perspective to enable us to enact the vision. And then I think the third piece is how do we then build tools that are different than just evaluating pre-exit planning, and as is so often, the toolkit, but actually saying, okay, what are the value drivers of a business? And this is probably where Taylor has a lot more to add because it’s 101 of the PE model, but how do we take the mission and vision of an entrepreneur, what we call north stars, translate those into value drivers, ensure those tie to strategic initiatives in the business, ensure it ties to reporting, and ultimately, how capital is allocated between the business and other investments? So then that’s our toolkit that we continue to build out to deploy the mission through our business model with tools that back it up. So that’s how we frame it right now. Taylor, we can share stories about how that’s come to fruition to create different outcomes. Jason Diamond: Taylor, I’d love to hear that. Let me just add maybe my understanding, because this is what helped me, I think, to really understand how you defer, and Nick and Taylor, correct me if I’m wrong, it sounds like the typical advisor thinks about an entrepreneur, a business owner relationship as the next liquidity event in most cases. And you take the viewpoint that it’s a journey, in some instances, 30 years in the making. It’s not even about liquidity event might come that’s beside the point. Is that a fair summary? Taylor Gentry: Yeah. We talk about it as a growing business is a healthy business, a business that is creating incremental value and adding to the multiple in terms of how the business is valued in the marketplace is a healthy business. And so whether you are going to sell that business or retain that business into perpetuity, let’s make a really valuable business and grow a very healthy business. And that’s what we do with clients. Nick laid out the north star framework. And so how do we actually go about engaging with folks on a practical level? It does start with the north star framework. It’s got five steps to it as Nick outlined in terms of defining the north star, where we’re going, what we’re trying to do and that’s across those three pillars, personal significance, personal wealth and business value. And that personal significance has to be held at that same level. Otherwise, we find folks that are mid 50s, their business is crazy valuable, they’ve got a lot of dollars, but their family life isn’t where they want it to be because they didn’t take care of that along the way. So we lay out a place map that says, “Hey, these are the north stars that we are aligning on and coming back to every month when we work with these owners.” We then push that into, okay, what are we trying to do on the business side of the equation? Let’s lay out what is going to drive the value of the business from a multiple and enterprise value perspective. We push that into a set of strategic initiatives that is tactical, who owns what, when’s it getting done, and are we red, yellow or green on it? We then build out the performance reporting package with folks. And so that is a monthly reporting package that says what happened last month and what operational data are we looking at to be able to improve the business month over month and get a good feedback loop going into the company. And then the last piece is around capital allocation that Nick mentioned where if the business generates a million dollars, where’s that capital going? I think there’s a lot in there and it’s really deep, but if you zoom all the way back out, it’s take a private equity style playbook where private equity firms come and invest in a company. And what do they do after close? They put in place good financial reporting, good operational reporting, and then hold the team accountable to that reporting and those results on a monthly, quarterly, and annual basis. And so this is not rocket science or something that’s never been seen before. It’s just most business owners that have never experienced this private equity world don’t have access to it and don’t know how to go about doing it. It’s a relatively long process to get that installed with companies and with teams to really dig in and understand it, but it’s building out those packages to be able to say, “Okay, what happened last month? What changes do we need to make and what are we doing from a initiative perspective to drive the business forward?” So to Nick’s point, it was previously, this was all about liquidity planning or from a wealth management perspective, it’s about the exit. This is about how do we make a more valuable business along the way, and that’s going to be good for the entrepreneur as they move through the journey. Nick Hubert: When we were around the dinner table, the proverbial dinner table creating the vision of this firm, it was around this idea of the silver tsunami and everything that everybody reads in the headlines of this massive wave of transition, this generational transition of business ownership that we could help facilitate. So we launched with that thesis in some sense. In addition to this broader journey perspective, we have gotten to this place by following the market and listening to what entrepreneurs actually want through the big unlock was honestly in a deal process with one of our clients where we realized, “This is a great deal. This person’s going to put a ton of money in their pockets, secure their future,” and it’s completely the wrong outcome for the entrepreneur because it’s thinking all about the deal, not thinking about what this person didn’t want was an exit. They wanted a different relationship with their business, and that required, what do you actually want out of life, that personal significance piece? And it required, “Hey, if we can actually create a layer of team members and reporting that allows you to manage this like a board chair would do as opposed to a highly engaged CEO. That’s actually what you want. You don’t want out of this business. You want to still have this be a huge rock in your life.” And so we’ve ran through that door, said no to the deal with them and have been building the infrastructure around this, and that was the unlock and aha moment for us. There’s something bigger here and that’s what then inspired, in some sense, the broader build out of the toolkit, but I think puts more meat on the bone of actually saying no to a deal, which is not the classic wealth manager outcome to get to a way better outcome for the client and is ultimately still an awesome client for us as a firm and somebody that we can go build with for the next 20 years. I think just telling it through the lens of a story that’s different than what’s normal, so to speak, is a way to frame that up. Jason Diamond: It’s such a hyper focus on a fairly long-term and honestly nebulous potential outcome. You don’t have certainty. That, I think, is why most advisors would prefer the near-term liquidity. I mean, it’s not a secret, right? You can bill on assets, firms are incentivizing it and it’s a pretty direct recipe to net new asset growth, but it’s certainly a refreshing point of view. It resonates with me. I’m wondering if it’s resonated with clients and prospects. I guess what I’m asking is, do they feel that this is something different than the typical wealth management experience for this type of client? Nick Hubert: Yeah, Taylor, tell that story of the guy who said, “I’ve had this, but I felt alone.” I think that story of partnership, you tell pretty well. Taylor Gentry: Yeah. Jason, it was actually that same client, he had a investment banker, a wealth manager, attorney, and a CPA. CPA said, “The deal’s terrible, you shouldn’t do the deal.” Investment bankers obviously incentivized to do the deal. And so he’s saying, “You should do the deal.” That’s how he gets paid. He had a wealth manager who was silent and he had an attorney who just pushing paperwork. Jason Diamond: It’s like the start of a bad joke. Taylor Gentry: Yeah. No, seriously, it’s pretty remarkable. It’s like this guy did what he was supposed to do. He put the team of resources around himself. He got professionals in the seat. It’s that no one could connect the dots of all four of those people because they have the seat of those four people. And so it’s really resonated because there’s an ability to see a bigger picture and connect these dots and say, “Okay, this investment banker is saying X because of A, B and C.” And the CPA is saying it’s a bad deal and that it’s not a market deal. It’s 100% a market deal. This deal is right down the fairway in terms of what the market should value your company at and they just don’t understand how the transaction mechanics should work. And so it’s worked really well from that perspective of being able to be the quarterback or centralized point or personal CFO for folks in understanding where interests lie and also being able to think about what they are pursuing in a bit of a different lens. I think the second piece on that is where does it resonate for folks? I think that there is a gap in the marketplace that we are still working to close, and that gap is that business owners do not know what this monthly reporting package looks like. They do not know what really good reporting on their business looks like in terms of they have always run their… You’ve got a business owner. They’ve run their business for 10 or 20 years. They have a pulse on the business from their gut feel. That does not mean that the business has been optimized, is ready to go to the next level or is ready for a transaction and go through a transaction because they have not done the work on the backend to understand the moving pieces of the business at a granular level. This recording package, we oftentimes get this confusion around, well, I’ve got a temporary CFO or a controller or X, Y, Z. That is very different than what we’re talking about. Well, that is all accounting, close the books, have clean numbers. What we’re talking about is how do I marry operational data in the business, number of units ships, number of jobs completed, time on job, operational data to the financials in the business so I can then go make adjustments operationally on how to improve the business and continue taking steps forward. Jason Diamond: It’s very clear. Nick, anything you’d want to add to that? Nick Hubert: I’d say it’s easy to still cut that from a deal lens and say, look, when an investment partner comes to evaluate a business to sit in their seat for a moment, they’re going to look at the replicability of what that leader has done without that leader still in the seat. And if so many businesses are still reliant on that person and this gets talked about as processes, reporting systems, that ultimately results in a discount to the value of the business because although it can be viewed… For the leader, it’s like, it’s that control thing that entrepreneurs deal with. It’s what made them good. It’s what got you there. And so that transition is really hard. And that’s important from a deal lens because that does a direct impact to value. And to widen out the scope beyond the deal and to think about the entrepreneur’s life, this goes back to the dynamic that a lot of times entrepreneurs look for the exits because they’ve built something that it’s now owning them and what they’ve built is not resulting in the life that they want. And so how can we use this system to actually change that relationship, as I mentioned earlier, with the business so that they can run it more like an executive might and get out of the knife fight, so to speak, that often is how this can feel for a lot of folks, even for pretty large businesses. It can just feel like you’re a firefighter, you’re in a knife fight, whatever you want to use for that terminology. I think it’s as much about creating a different life outcome and different relationship and owning and leading a business as it is in driving deal value. Jason Diamond: Taylor, maybe I’ll ask this of you. Forgive the question, but private equity, I think in our space, has a little bit of a negative stigma at the moment. I don’t think that’s true across the board. I think people appreciate generally the need for capital and there are certainly benefits of private equity. But I’ll say as a whole, advisors are, let’s say, suspicious of private equity. You ever get that pushback? Does anybody ever view your experience or the way you position the story as a negative? Taylor Gentry: I think most people that we talk to don’t know what private equity is. They may have seen it in the headlines. They may have some sort of connotation around it. They won’t come out and say that they don’t like it. They don’t know why they don’t like it. The average American business owner, they don’t know what it is or what it means. So yes, you do have to fight that because of the headline piece around private equity, bad actor ABC, and that’s what gets the headlines. I think what private equity is really good at is taking a business that is not optimized or not running on systems and processes that it can run on. Again, it’s not rocket science is not crazy hard. It’s just the private equity world has created ways to install systems and process that improve the value of the business by way of providing visibility to financials and operations in a way that the owner previously didn’t have. And so for us, we view it not by any means as the end all be all or the answer. There are clients we’ve worked with that have taken private equity capital and grown successfully, executed on some acquisitions and then exited again. There are clients that have evaluated those transactions and said, “Hey, not for me.” We are actually fairly agnostic to it. What we really spend a lot of our time on is what are we solving for? What’s the end game? How do we use this private equity transaction to get to where we’re trying to go and is it what we want at the end of the day? Because the reality is, if you’re going to stay on and run that business with private equity investment in, there’s a higher expectation on what you need to do Monday morning than when you owned it yourself and it was a little bit of your personal piggy bank too. Jason Diamond: I love it because you bring it back to the north star concept. Taylor Gentry: Yes, that’s exactly right. It’s what are we solving for and what game are we playing to be able to get to where we ultimately want to go? And for, as Nick mentioned that client that turned down the deal, it was a private equity investment. We got very clear with that, “Hey, here are going to be the expectations. You will have a monthly financial reporting call. You’re going to have quarterly board meetings.” These are things that need to happen in this business to be able to upgrade the management and cadence in this company. You don’t have to do it all tomorrow, but that is how you make a more valuable company, is installing some of these systems, process and cadence. And so we’re working with him now on doing that, just in a private context instead of in the private equity backed environment. Nick Hubert: I think there are three things embedded in this. I’d say number one, to Taylor’s point, this is a massive black box, in some ways by design. Wall Street’s had not a great reputation for a very long time of putting things behind the paywall, so to speak. And so we think a lot about our job as empowerment and education. Jason Diamond: Education, yep. Nick Hubert: Yeah. And so part of it is just, number one, how do we just demystify this thing and name things and take away the go to or bad? Because it can be that, but it should not be that from a core basis. That’s number one. Number two, a lot of entrepreneurs feel like they cannot get access to this ability to professionalize or level up or whatever these things are without bringing on that investment partner. And so part of our motivation is how do we actually bring this skillset in without needing to bring on an investment partner because oftentimes, that investment partner comes when you’re done, and so you don’t actually get to experience it. That’s number two. Number three is, Jason, part of your point earlier was like there’s still a trap here of potentially being able to get motivated primarily by the exit. And so again, that gets back to our business model, making sure our price Racing is right, all that good stuff. And it’s also the reality that a lot of businesses, if you just look at a very broad scope of American businesses, a lot of them don’t have value in the marketplace in a massively material way and/or won’t exit in a traditional way. And so the wealth creation journey then becomes much more of a conversation of, how do we manage the balance between investing in the company and distributing out of the company to invest elsewhere because we should actually be creating investment assets along the way because when you get to the exit, there’s no better power position at the moment of exit than already having financial security to some degree and giving you choice in the right deal, not the highest and best deal because you need to fill the piggy bank for retirement. Jason Diamond: I just want to be sure to ask because you did mention a couple times your pricing structure. How have you set it up so that you can be more agnostic about this as opposed to the typical… You want to talk about it for a minute? Nick Hubert: As it’s structured now, it starts with a retainer earlier on where we are working… As Taylor mentioned, we are going deep in the operational build of the business. We will do that on a monthly retainer. We’re engaging consistently. As assets get built up and if assets get built up, we start to chew that retainer down as assets go up. I think what we are ideally trying to figure out, and still honestly have not figured out yet, is how do we get to parity so that we don’t create an… I want to be able to work agnostically with a client to say- Jason Diamond: Yeah, I love it. Nick Hubert: … regardless of how I’m engaging with you, that’s the goal. So I’d say we haven’t cracked the code on exactly what that is yet, but mechanically, we’ve got the levers to pull to say how we price and move that retainer down is basically allowing to keep it at par, so to speak, for the client and allowing us to say, “I’m here to engage in making the best wealth creation outcome for you along the way, whether that’s investing in the business or investing outside the business.” Jason Diamond: I think that’s the right recipe. I agree. The levers can be fine-tuned, but to me, that’s the model you want to create where you can credibly look your prospects and clients in the eyes and tell them, “Our job is to serve you in the best way… We’re sitting on the same side of the table as you.” I want to turn this inward for a second. The home cooking concept. M&A, within the RIA independent space, is obviously a hot topic. Have you thought about it? Do you think it’s a critical part of a potential growth trajectory of a healthy, independent firm? I’m curious your perspective. I feel you, Taylor in particular, probably have a unique lens on this coming from the world you came from. Taylor Gentry: Yeah, Jason, I think if Nick and I wanted to put as much money as we possibly could in our pockets as fast as humanly possible. It’s a pretty easy recipe. It’s go get some private equity capital backer, roll up a few RIAs, get to a few billion of AUM and then sell it to the next private equity firm or roll it to the next private equity firm, do that a few times. We’d all make plenty of money and go on our way. We’ve been really intentional on this front, and again, I talk about this is what we want to do for the next 30 plus years. And really being intentional around building a business that has that enduring nature to it, decided to take private equity capital on, you are on a shot clock to some degree. Yes, you’re trying to build a best business, all of those pieces. You get cadence. You get capital. There’s a ton of value there, but you are on a shot clock that is not a shot clock we’re trying to get on at this stage. I’d say we opportunistically are looking at acquisitions. So we think about it, and Nick and I talk about it all the time, how much of our time should we be spending on acquisitions? And we think of it as 80/20 or even 90/10, 80% or 90% organic growth-focused, 10 to 20% acquisitions-focused. And so we’re actively evaluating those consistently and see deals on a monthly basis that we look at and evaluate, but it’s less of the focus today than it could be down the road. Jason Diamond: And Nick, do you think of that when you guys talk? Do you guys call that your true north? Do you think the same way you coach your clients and prospects to say, “For right now, it wouldn’t be the right move for us to take private equity capital and to do this acquisition rollup strategy because A, B and C are more important for us”? Nick Hubert: Yes. I think if we take our life north star for Taylor. I’m speaking for Taylor, but we’re close and so we share this of… To Taylor’s point, the life outcome of scaling that quickly with that type of capital backing is likely to create a life that I don’t actually want that’s not good for me, not good for my family, and honestly, not good for our clients at this point. And so that overrides in this case, even though the wealth, north star might say, “Hey, absolutely do that.” At some point something has to win. And so that is true. At the business side, as the north star is motivated by this mission of the entire entrepreneur journey, the worst thing I could do is shortcut my ability to be on that journey for a long period of time. One of our friends in this space says, “The best thing I can do for my clients is still be in the seat 30 years from now because I’ve lived a good life that enables that.” And I think that’s spot on for us, is everything, it’s so easy in today’s world to be consumed by short-termism and we are intentional in ensuring that we don’t succumb to that. While still recognizing to your point, I mean, you’re in this all day, Jason, right? There’s a massive opportunity in front of us to be thoughtful about how acquisitions fit into this. And I think we want to be open to that in a way that ensures we just don’t lose the core of the goodness of what we’re trying to build. Jason Diamond: I think that’s the right answer. The only wrong answer in my mind is we’re not open to this or we’re closed to it. To not at least be opportunistically aware of the dynamics in the market, I think is naive. But also, I’ll be honest, Nick, when I think about the concept of the north star, I have a hard time imagining, because we use a similar concept when we counsel advisors. What is your true north or your north star and your best business life, whatever you want to call it? To me, it does include absolutely the personal piece. I think it’s hard to define it only on the economic verticals because, I mean, I think about this for a transitioning advisor. Almost never is the conversation about crunch the spreadsheet and get us the biggest check possible. It’s, yeah, sure, transition capital is important, but it’s let’s also, we want a better work life and we want freedom to market and blah, blah, blah. To me, I think it’s a completely fair way. You two are looking at it at least for now and I assume you reserve the right to revise that opinion down the line. Nick Hubert: I think acquiring for size and scale is as often the headline is, yeah, we’re not into that at this point because I think… And yet, hey, if the right acquisition with the right people came along in that, we’d be extremely excited and would move very quickly to execute on that. So it’s a little bit of a both hand. Taylor Gentry: Yeah. Jason, I think it goes without saying, but my background on having done a bunch of transactions of businesses like this, it’s a natural fit for us to have this as a lever. And so we are looking at deals. We just haven’t prioritized it as the top priority. Jason Diamond: I think also where you are, 2024 was the launch of the business. It’s pretty common to see, all right, let’s nail this, let’s get our feet under us, client service model and then we’ll start to think about that down the line. A couple other things I want to ask you about running an independent firm. This is a pretty glowingly positive review, I think, of your ability to service clients, your ability to grow and to build and run the business that you want. Has there been anything negative that you haven’t enjoyed about running and operating this business, other than working with each other, of course? Nick Hubert: No, I was going to say, I’m like, can we get Taylor off the call again? Taylor Gentry: Jason, maybe I’ll take a first cut at it. I think for both Nick and I, it’s just the administrative components of running an independent business that we don’t enjoy candidly. I don’t think many people would. That said, you come full circle and it is a pretty glowingly positive review of running an independent business because we get to run it in the way that we see fit. And oh, by the way, we use the same things that we use with our clients. So the value drivers we’ve talked about, we have a value drivers worksheet. We refresh it every six months. Nick, Andrew, and I get together every six months and we’re 18 months into this thing and we’ve already got this cadence and system to it, if you will. So I personally really enjoy the running the business piece of it from a macro perspective. Yeah, I’m responsible for running our fee billing and running the math on all that and getting that done, for example. Jason Diamond: I think that’s actually a very thoughtful answer. And I appreciate you saying I enjoy running… I feel the same way, by the way. There’s some elements of running a business that I think are immensely fun. I think it gets painted with this brush of, “Ugh, running the business is the hassle and I want to work in the business.” Agreed, nobody likes invoicing and accounts receivable for the most part, but Nick, what are your thoughts on this? Nick Hubert: Yeah, I think mine is different a little bit coming from a different background where it’s easier for me to sit with the rose-colored glasses of the joy of the freedom that we have in this model. At the same time, when I’m counseling folks who are talking with folks or mentoring folks, younger people who are thinking about, “Okay, I want to go start my own thing,” I’m like, “Hey, it’s like I’m the same way. I want to look in the mirror and think I’m the boss or I’m one of the bosses and we get to go build this.” Then the reality is, at the end of the day, if there was something that you didn’t want to do that had to get done and you didn’t do it, you got to look in the mirror and be like, “Well, you’re the boss, you didn’t do it.” It’s the both sides of the coin that I think a positive, negative cut is one way to look at that because it can feel that way sometimes. And the reality is every job has 20 to 30% of it that you just don’t enjoy doing, and that’s totally true. Jason Diamond: It’s why they call it work. That’s why they pay you. Nick Hubert: They’d be pretty quick to point out that I’m the one of the partnership group that they’re going to have to chase for a smaller administrative item because, yeah, I honestly, just similarly speaking, don’t enjoy that. I want to go talk to clients. I want to go focus on building what we’re building. In finance speaks, it is a higher beta to just the all encompassing realities of running a business that is really hard to underscore without being in the seat. And yeah, there’s definitely 20 to 30% of that I would love to wave a magic wand and say, I don’t have to do anymore. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I appreciate that. Nick Hubert: You can’t have one without the other. It’s both sides. Jason Diamond: I think it’s getting easier and I think it’s getting more offloadable and some of it probably gets more… In some ways, more offloadable as you scale, but then you get a new set of problems, probably two, because you’re dealing with bigger… It’s a never ending. I think most business owners would agree with that. And you said it well, you take the good with the bad and overwhelmingly, most people we speak with in the independent space feel as you do, which is, are there things I would prefer to offload or that I would prefer not to do? Of course, but that’s almost just the price you pay for the freedom and for doing all the things you want to do. Two more questions that I want to be sure to ask about where this has been a great episode. One is AI. Need to know your thoughts. Is this coming for our jobs? Do you think your firm is positioned to capture either asset flows or also just to leverage this technology and use it to serve clients better? Just give me your thoughts. Nick Hubert: I think, in some sense, it would be irresponsible as people this early in our entrepreneurial journey and thinking about how do we optimize what we do for clients to not be engaging with AI in some way, shape or form, at least in an evaluative posture. So we are actively, in a bunch of different ways, whether it’s buy it off the shelf or build it, continuing to find ways to think about, not only how do we drive efficiency, because there’s an obvious surface level dynamic of if I can save time and spend more time with clients, that is a go to thing objectively. And there’s this deeper dynamic of if it can amplify what… Actually, back to your prior question, if it can amplify what I’m best at and enjoy and reduce what I don’t enjoy, that’s a massive win. And I think we’re on the surface of seeing that. That’s the opportunity we are motivated by that and pursuing that. And at the same time, I would say an operational principle that really is important to us, and you can almost call it a north star within the business is client security can never be put at risk for the sake of our own growth, our own efficiency, or anything else. There’s, I think, still a question mark as to how we think about trusting this. And so we are very cautious as we think about we will never try to move so quickly on any technology, whether it’s AI or otherwise that we risk our clients in some way, shape or form, because the reality is we are also in a context where AI is, when pulled, one of the least popular things happening in the world today for the average American. And so there’s no kudos here for being a leader. Jason Diamond: I totally agree. The first mover advantage here is slim to none. Nick Hubert: Yeah, you don’t want to be the one sticking your neck out on this in our industry. And yet there still objectively has a potential to be better for the clients. Navigating that I think is messy. Taylor Gentry: I think the only thing I’d add, which is pretty short, is the use of these tools has the ability to create a better deliverable for clients on a more consistent basis. And marrying that with exactly what Nick just outlined around the risk is really the magic piece here. And so I think, to the extent we can get it implemented effectively with the security, but also with, this is going to result in a lot better outcome for clients across the board, that’s a pretty attractive objective to go after and it’s pretty exciting to be in the industry with that now on the forefront in terms of ability to improve that experience over time. Jason Diamond: Yeah. No, that’s a good color to add. I want to end here with a potential HR violation, but you’ll forgive me. I’m not going to ask about age, but you are clearly both relatively young advisors. And this is a hot button issue in our industry, the idea that there are not a lot of talented, young next gen advisors at a time when a lot of gen one or older advisors are retiring out of the business. So what would you say… I think one of you made the comment earlier, it’s not necessarily the coolest industry to go into at 23 years old right out of school. I think more commonly people go into sales and trading, investment banking or some of the other finance verticals. What would you say to younger folks interested in wealth? And maybe I’d ask also, do you have any thoughts on how we solve this next gen talent crisis? And if you’re both secretly 90 years old, you can just do it. Taylor Gentry: You talking my internal age or my actual age? Jason Diamond: Why don’t you go first? Nick Hubert: Yeah, go ahead, Taylor. Taylor Gentry: I think there’s two threads here. The first is it’s not a sexy industry to go into and not as sexy as an investment banking, private equity shtick, if you will. I think from my perspective, it’s really important what you’re working on. The ability to be in a firm like what we are building with the diversity of work that is available is a little bit like the world’s your oyster and we’re designing it with that in mind. For Nick and I, the ability to work on many different situations throughout the day and throughout the week is actually why this business is so attractive and interesting and why we want to do it for 30 years. And so we’re building with that context. And so, in some ways, it’s almost like a plug for younger advisors, the ability to work in a firm like what we’re building where you’ve got this diversity of work that is not just trading stocks and bonds or just spreadsheeting or just financial planning. This is a much broader expression and experience than what I would call “traditional” wealth management. So I think that’s the key on that front. Then, on the talent development side of the equation, if you will, this AI thing is going to be a big question mark. And what I mean by that is there is significant training that will be required in, call it traditional wealth management or the firm we’re building with regard to folks’ ability to actually learn when you can plug it into AI and get an answer that you don’t have to critically question or think through. And so there’s going to be a significant learning curve for folks that we’re going to have to continue to train and educate on in order to produce talent that can be long-term sustainable and beneficial for clients more writ large. Jason Diamond: Nick. Nick Hubert: Well, first and foremost, we haven’t given our third partner enough here of time. I think we have a tremendous benefit of having a multi-generational team at the partnership level where he’s in his mid to late 50s and can bring that additional experience to bear and as is necessary, and as is important because investing is an experienced business and a lot of clients want that. And so the power of that matters. I think that actually speaks to firms being willing to think of partnership at that level that partnership is not reserved for just once you’ve been there for a long time. So I think it’s getting at like, how do you share ownership earlier, do it in a way that is actually giving people a stake in the outcome and allowing that elevation to happen. I think that’s number one. Number two, honestly, the existence of people like you and your team and that your family has built over the years, Jason, is awesome. And because of the ability for you to help people navigate and see how easy it is to actually run this business and build this business in some sense… And that’s in the broader spectrum of having seen. We work with so many different types of companies. We sometimes say our business is so much easier to run and it has come so far with technology and with people like you who are providers to us to allow it to be easier for us so to speak. That’s a big deal. I think that should be talked about more that there is a massive… What that allows is more time to, as Taylor mentioned, build what you actually want because you can outsource the compliance piece in a major way that allows you to not spend as much time on that as you used to. So I don’t think that gets talked about enough. And I think if you just zoom out and view this in the perspective of post-2020, there was this massive movement of entrepreneurship through acquisitions and people looking at this idea of how do I get the life I want by way of not having to be on a two-year clock to go to the next job to the next job. Have something that I can have a long-term impact on where I get to build something and have employees. This is the perfect space for that because it’s such an awesome business where you get to work so intimately with people and clients and their life outcomes. They’re, again, relatively speaking, easier businesses to run relative to what’s out there. I’m just baffled by the fact that it is not seen a larger wave of younger people coming out of these more “traditional” paths and seeing this as an awesome place when they’re willing to go buy an HVAC company. This is so much easier than that. So honestly, I think part of it’s just we all live coming from being in this space longer, we get stuck in our wealth management lane and I think it’s easy to then nitpick and get stuck in there. But when we take a more global perspective, it’s a massive opportunity that I hope more people take advantage of. Jason Diamond: Thank you for highlighting that. We call it the ecosystem of support for financial advisors, and it’s gotten so much more robust through the years. And a lot of times, people focus on the negatives of compliance burdens have gotten heavier and competition has gotten fiercer. And yes, that’s all true, but the flip side is the point you just made, Nick. So I appreciate you bringing that up. Any last words of wisdom you’d want to share with our audience? This has been a fantastic episode and I can’t wait to have you back on to revisit the growth trajectory. Nick Hubert: Yeah, I’d say just thank you for the time. We’ll plug the podcast. We’ve enjoyed you guys for a really long time and being able to have the resource of what you guys have built is actually… In our partnership meetings, we’re bringing you guys up with some consistency. So thank you for the gift that you are to the industry and continuing to create opportunity for folks like us to come on here. Jason Diamond: Thank you so much. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients, but are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery, is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.  

With Constantine Hatzivassiliou—Partner, Certuity Golf taught Constantine Hatzivassiliou how to perform under pressure. Building a nearly $5B multi-family office taught him that the best advisors become the first call when life, not just the markets, gets complicated. In Summary Many advisors spend years mastering investments, but for affluent families, portfolio management is often just the starting point. Jason Diamond welcomes Constantine Hatzivassiliou, Partner at Certuity, to discuss how his journey from aspiring professional golfer to leader of a nearly $5B multi-family office shaped his approach to client service. Their conversation explores why trust is earned long before a crisis, how family office services evolve naturally from client needs, and why the advisor’s role increasingly resembles that of a quarterback coordinating every aspect of a family’s financial life. The discussion also examines organic growth, referrals, fiduciary advice, private equity’s impact on the RIA landscape, and the qualities that allow advisors to become indispensable over decades—not just market cycles. The Storyline Many advisors spend years perfecting investment management. But as clients become more successful, the job changes. The questions become bigger than portfolio construction. A business is being sold. A family dynamic shifts. A tax issue emerges. An estate plan needs updating. Suddenly, the advisor isn’t simply managing assets—they’re coordinating decisions, relationships, and emotions. For Constantine, that broader role was shaped long before he entered wealth management. As an aspiring professional golfer, he learned lessons about discipline, preparation, and performing under pressure that continue to influence how he serves clients today. Jason and Constantine explore how Certuity grew from approximately $210 million in assets to nearly $5B, not through acquisitions but through referrals and a service model built on becoming indispensable to the families they advise. Constantine explains why he believes the best advisors function more like quarterbacks than portfolio managers, orchestrating the many moving pieces that come with significant wealth. The conversation also examines the evolution of the multi-family office model, the role of fiduciary advice, the impact of private equity on the advisory landscape, and why experience, judgment, and trust remain the qualities clients value most. Ultimately, this episode is about what it takes to become the first call when life – not just the markets – becomes complicated. Topics Covered Lessons from professional golf that translate to wealth management Building Certuity from $210mm to nearly $5B in assets What distinguishes a multi-family office from a traditional RIA Why referrals fuel long-term organic growth Becoming the “first call” for affluent families Fiduciary advice and the evolution of the advisory profession Family office services beyond investment management Private equity and M&A in the RIA space Developing the next generation of advisors Trust, relationships, and lifetime client service > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors How did professional golf prepare Constantine for advising wealthy families? (3:45) Constantine explains why competing under pressure taught him discipline, emotional control, and process—qualities that now guide every client relationship. How did Certuity grow from $210 million to nearly $5 billion? (8:00) He shares why nearly all of the firm’s growth has come organically through client referrals rather than acquisitions or aggressive recruiting. What separates a multi-family office from a traditional advisory firm? (11:45) The conversation explores how expanding into trust, estate, tax, and family office services became a response to client needs—not a business strategy. Why should advisors think of themselves as quarterbacks? (20:00) Constantine recounts a client business sale that fell apart at the closing table and explains why advisors often become the person holding everything together. How does Certuity view private equity and acquisitions? (36:20) Jason and Constantine discuss when outside capital can make sense—and why Certuity has chosen a different path centered on client alignment. Why do wisdom and experience still matter in an AI-driven world? (29:30) Despite advances in technology, Constantine argues that judgment, trust, and perspective remain the qualities affluent families value most. Key Takeaways High-net-worth clients increasingly value coordination, judgment, and perspective over investment selection alone. Family office services often evolve naturally as advisors respond to increasingly complex client needs. Sustainable organic growth is rooted in trust, which explains why referrals account for the overwhelming majority of Certuity’s new business. Golf and wealth management share the same disciplines: preparation, emotional control, patience, and executing under pressure. The most valuable advisors become trusted partners during life’s defining moments—not simply portfolio managers. Technology continues to reshape wealth management, but experience and wisdom remain difficult to replicate. Building a lasting advisory business requires investing in culture, succession, and the next generation of talent. https://youtu.be/m72Hq6bMTo4 Quotable Moments “The best advisors aren’t simply managing portfolios. They’re the first person clients call when life gets complicated.” “A bad shot in golf is the equivalent of a bad day in the market. You can’t let one dictate everything that comes next.” “More often than not, we’re not just financial advisors—we’re financial therapists.” “Growth gets the headlines. Trust is what makes it possible.” FAQs What is a multi-family office? A multi-family office delivers integrated services beyond investment management, often coordinating tax, estate planning, philanthropy, business planning, and other complex financial matters for affluent families. Why has Certuity grown primarily through referrals? Constantine attributes the firm’s growth to deep client relationships, a collaborative service model, and becoming the trusted advisor clients recommend to others. How does golf relate to wealth management? Golf reinforces discipline, emotional control, preparation, and performing under pressure—all qualities Constantine believes are essential for effective advisors. What is Constantine’s perspective on private equity in wealth management? While he understands why many firms pursue private equity, he believes every strategic decision should ultimately be measured against what best serves clients. What qualities distinguish exceptional advisors today? According to Constantine, exceptional advisors become trusted coordinators of a client’s financial life—bringing together specialists, solving problems, and providing perspective during life’s most important moments. A multi-family office delivers integrated services beyond investment management, often coordinating tax, estate planning, philanthropy, business planning, and other complex financial matters for affluent families. Constantine attributes the firm’s growth to deep client relationships, a collaborative service model, and becoming the trusted advisor clients recommend to others. Golf reinforces discipline, emotional control, preparation, and performing under pressure—all qualities Constantine believes are essential for effective advisors. While he understands why many firms pursue private equity, he believes every strategic decision should ultimately be measured against what best serves clients. According to Constantine, exceptional advisors become trusted coordinators of a client’s financial life—bringing together specialists, solving problems, and providing perspective during life’s most important moments. Related Resources Emotional Intelligence: The “Untouchable” Differentiator in an AI World Intentional Growth: How Top Advisors Build Businesses That Last The 10 Characteristics of the Most Successful Teams Constantine HatzivassiliouPartner  Constantine Hatzivassiliou is a Partner at Certuity, a nationally recognized multi-family office serving affluent families, entrepreneurs, executives, foundations, and endowments. He advises clients on the complex financial, tax, estate, and business planning decisions that accompany significant wealth, helping families coordinate all aspects of their financial lives through a comprehensive family office approach. Drawing on more than two decades of experience, Constantine works closely with successful business owners, corporate executives, and multi-generational families to simplify financial complexity and align investment management, tax planning, estate planning, philanthropy, and family governance strategies. As a Certified Exit Planning Advisor (CEPA®), he frequently assists entrepreneurs in preparing for liquidity events, business transitions, and the long-term stewardship of family wealth. His clients often view him as a trusted advisor and strategic sounding board, helping them navigate important financial decisions with the perspective of both a family office professional and a coach. Prior to joining Certuity, Constantine held advisory and banking positions with The Bank of New York Mellon, Bernstein Global Wealth Management, and Pacific Mercantile Bank. Before entering the financial services industry, he was a Golf Professional and member of the PGA of America, experiences that continue to shape his disciplined, competitive, and relationship-focused approach to advising clients. Outside of his professional responsibilities, Constantine is passionate about mentoring young athletes and strengthening the communities in which he lives and works. He serves as a Board Member of Coerfontaine Football Club (CFC), a premier youth soccer organization focused on developing young athletes and helping them pursue collegiate and professional opportunities while fostering leadership, discipline, and character. He also serves as Chair of the Safety and Security Committee for Parkland, where he works alongside community leadership to enhance resident safety, security, and quality of life. In addition, Constantine is a Founding Board Member of The Boardroom, a private membership organization focused on fostering meaningful relationships among business leaders, entrepreneurs, and professionals through networking, education, and philanthropy. Born in Greece, Constantine spent his childhood in Montreal before relocating to South Florida. He attended the University of Florida before earning a Bachelor of Arts in Economics from Florida Atlantic University, where he graduated with honors. He holds the Certified Exit Planning Advisor (CEPA®) designation. A lifelong student of the game, Constantine remains active in golf and is a member of Muirfield Village Golf Club, founded by his longtime  hero and mentor, Jack Nicklaus, as well as Parkland Golf & Country Club. Constantine resides in Parkland, Florida, with his wife, Stephanie, and their two children, Nicholas and Olivia. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. Episode Transcript Lessons from the Links: From Golf Pro to $5B Family Office Partner A conversation with Jason Diamond and Constantine Hatzivassiliou, Partner at Certuity. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Lessons from the Links: From Golf Pro to $5B Family Office Partner. It’s a conversation with Constantine Hatzivassiliou, partner at Certuity. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned and, each year, one in four advisors managing $1 billion or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report, it’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions, download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: Golf is a way of exposing who you really are, there are no teammates to blame, no clock to run out and no hiding from a bad decision. Every shot demands discipline, patience and the ability to stay focused when the pressure is highest, my guest today knows that firsthand. Before becoming a partner at Certuity, a multifamily office approaching five billion in assets, Constantine Hatzivassiliou was pursuing a career as a professional golfer. An injury ultimately redirected his path towards wealth management but many of the lessons he learned on the course still shaped the way he serves clients today. Certuity has grown from roughly 210 million in assets to nearly five billion, that’s impressive on its own but the more interesting story is how they’ve done it. The firm has grown largely through referrals built around a multifamily office model and focused on becoming far more than an investment advisor to the families it serves. In Constantine’s view, the best advisors aren’t simply managing portfolios, they’re the first person clients call when a business is being sold, a family issue becomes complicated or a major decision carries consequences well beyond the balance sheet. Constantine and I discuss the lessons golf teaches about handling pressure then we dive into the evolution from the traditional wealth management world to the multifamily office model, why referrals drive nearly all of Certuity’s growth, how he thinks about private equity’s influence on the advisory business and what it takes to become the first call for the wealthy families they serve and perhaps, most importantly, why the same qualities that help someone succeed on a golf course may be surprisingly relevant to building trust over a lifetime. It’s a great conversation so let’s dive in. Constantine, thank you so much for joining, thrilled to have you here. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Thank you for having me, excited to be here. Jason Diamond: Yeah, absolutely. So, you had an unconventional path to wealth management, you started as a professional golfer, I think that’s a first for us on this show, before ultimately transitioning into this world. Can you tell us a little bit about the journey and what brought you here? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Yeah, I never thought I’d be here, my parents were certainly shocked that I got here path wise. Growing up, immigrants from Greece, you settle into Florida the traditional way where you either go down the diner route or the gas station route in mechanics which my father was the latter and school and education was never priority, it was always about supporting the family needs. So, next thing you know, sports are a critical part of any good household, that’s how I was raised and I played everything but golf. I grew up on a golf course because my parents believed that a location of a property was critical to long-term financial success. We lived on a golf course, it was in our backyard, we’d stare at it and we’d use it to play football or baseball or anything but actual golf. And my freshman year at the University of Florida, I started dating a girl on the golf team and she got me hooked to the point where, after four years of hitting balls with the women’s and men’s golf team at the University of Florida for six hours a day, we finished school and realized I’m actually pretty good at the game and, while I have a finance and economics background and degree, let’s try and pursue this for a living and I was blessed. I had a sponsor who helped me succeed at golf on a small scale, it was a humbling experience to say the least. I was competing and playing with Sean O’Hair, Ken Duke, guys who made it out on tour for a very long time, we had the same sponsor so we functioned as a team, it was a collegiate team effectively trying to make it out on tour. And, unfortunately, my second year of competing, I blew out my back doing heavy deadlifts which set me aside for 18 months. While I was recovering, my primary sponsor was in financial services and says, “Hey, you have a background in this, it’s killing you not being able to be on the golf course, why don’t you come work for me while you’re rehabbing so that, when you get back to playing golf, it’s easier for you to talk about our business as a sponsor to try and develop business to throw it to the financial services side?” And Jason, the reality is, after 18 months working there, I fell in love with it. I made way more money working in that environment than I ever would’ve made playing golf because, again, I came to the game late. I was decent but I was nowhere near the caliber of players that are succeeding now out on tour. So, I pivoted after having met my wife and decided to settle down into the wealth management space and, what is it now, 26 years later, going strong. So, it’s been a fun transition from golf into wealth management to say the least. Jason Diamond: Probably my favorite background … I watch a lot of golf, I should caveat that, probably my favorite origin story we’ve had, I’ll give you the Wanamaker trophy or whatever you get, first place. Let’s talk about the business now, so Certuity. For our audience who may not be familiar, tell us a little bit about the firm, what types of clients do you serve and any context you can provide on size as well. We’ll talk about how your firm got there but just give us where we are today to start with. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, goal by the end of the year is to have $5 billion in AUM, we’re just shy of that now. We currently service 428 families across the country. So, we’re boutiquey and nimble, we’re based in South Florida, we have offices in New York, San Fran and LA. I’m fortunate to be one of four partners at the firm supporting the growth and the direction of the company and it’s a fun endeavor in the sense that, when we first started, I was employee number four 16 years ago and, with 210 million in AUM at the time to grow it to where we are today, to learn all the things that we have over the years, the curve balls that were thrown at us because all of us came from massive institutional wealth management firms. So, we transitioned from the Bernsteins of the world, the BNY Mellons of the world into an RIA in the South Florida market, there was absolutely an entrepreneurial learning curve involved. Jason Diamond: I bet. And on follow-up question, 16 years ago, did you have a book of business, client business and do you still maintain a book of business today? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: I do. The four of us at the firm share in all of the clients, we work together. Being in the Southeast, I’m responsible for, let’s call it, the Southeast demographics of the US which is a large portion of Certuity’s book. I have a partner in Tennessee, I have a partner in LA and San Francisco and we divide and conquer across the country. But, yes, we came over with a small book, we’ve all grown it organically since then. So, we’ve been very effective in how we’ve grown. Jason Diamond: Just from adding new client money? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Strictly through new clients referred to us by existing clients. Jason Diamond: Wow. I want to talk more about the growth because that’s remarkable. But before I do, can we double click on the service model? So, I would say the most typical we hear, I think more of our guests typically come from the wirehouse world where it’s I have my book, you have your book. What does your service model look like? So, is it truly, if it’s working well from the end client perspective, you should be interchangeable with your partners and it’s a true team approach? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: How we engage our clients, the theory should be I can get hit by a bus tomorrow and outside of the client not being able to speak to me directly, they will not have a hiccup in any way, shape or form. And when we’re dealing with families across multiple generations, the way we’ve built our platform, that continuity is critical in the engagement process for the clients hiring us to help them through all of the challenges that they face. Jason Diamond: What’s your sweet spot in terms of client size? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Our average client size today has just shy of eight million AUM with us. We have some clients who have $1 million certainly but they’re strategic in that their friends, their family, they could be centers of influence who help send business our way because they value what it is that we do and there’s a strategic partnership because we might need them for their trust and estate services or their accounting work and they have clients who have a need and we’re on the short list of people they refer to. Jason Diamond: That they trust. Yeah, makes sense. So, I’ve seen this in the news and also even on your own internal materials, I’ve seen you described as both a modern multifamily office, you’ll also obviously hear the term RIA as well. Does that distinction matter at all? And maybe my second part of that question would be what is the distinction between that space, whatever you call it, and the more traditional firm world from a client service perspective? You mentioned that all of your partners from that world. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: I started in this industry truly at an institutional level at Bernstein in New York and, for anyone who knows Bernstein, they really do brainwash you on the fiduciary model and the values affiliated with that philosophy has translated through my career at BNY Mellon which has a very similar feel as Bernstein. And then, when we came here, we instilled that same core value principle of fiduciary responsibility for our clients so we are very different than a traditional wirehouse or brokerage house, it is why we’ve grown so successfully. I would never, one, work for an institution that did bide by those standards and, secondarily, I wished Congress and Senate would turn around and actually implement a mandatory fiduciary liability for all financial advisors because, far too often, we see prospective clients or families get taken advantage of because the individual sitting across from them giving them financial advice is not necessarily aligned with their goals and objectives. Jason Diamond: So, I take it you are fee only. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: We are fee only. Jason Diamond: Yeah. I don’t want to lose the thread on the first part of my question. Do you think there is a distinction between a multifamily office and an RIA? I don’t want to lead you here but to me it implies a different level or different caliber of service model that probably includes more of the ancillary trust and estate and CPA type stuff that higher network clients need but curious what your thoughts are. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Our first seven years at the firm, we were strictly an RIA, we functioned as an advisory service provider to our clients. What attracted me and my partners to Certuity was the nimbleness of the firm. So, for instance, at BNY Mellon, we often deemed a change necessary as moving an aircraft carrier across the world but it was an impossible task to accomplish. But when you’re small and nimble and clients come to you with a need and you’re in the service, ultimately, first and foremost, it made sense for us to start building out family office services for our clients because they had a need and we found it as a way to centralize everything because, far too often, when the communication standards break down between all the individual parts, one, it’s more expensive for the clients and, two, the process isn’t efficient, things get missed. So, we tried, largely due to our growth, to bring everything in house and our clients appreciate that for it. Jason Diamond: So, this is not a chicken and egg situation, this is very much we had large clients, we were attracting large clients and, in order to service them optimally, here’s what we felt we needed to build. Is that fair? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: 100%. Jason Diamond: Let’s shift gears, I need to go deeper on the professional golf thread a little bit. I promise I won’t make the whole interview about your golf background. I’m curious if you feel like that experience or that, I don’t know, upbringing or, I guess, background laid any foundation for the way you engage with clients today or the way you operate as a business leader today. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, there’s a couple parts to that. The golf side, certainly, just from an engaging client perspective, 90% of our clients are golfers. Jason Diamond: It’s very true. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Right. It just helps because of our background and certainly with some of the clients and partners that we have at the firm, golf is a critical thread in what we do. However, when it comes to golf, what I learned playing golf at a high level directly translates to how we manage money for clients and I’ll express it this way. There’s generally two types of golfers, there’s the artist, the Sergios of the world who don’t fundamentally function off of specific points in their swing or a very structured platform, they see something, their mind becomes creative and they execute on it. I was never that way, I am a numbers person, I think everything analytically, I break everything down to the minute, everything is strategized and organized, I was taught to practice that way by Coach Alexander at the University of Florida and that foundational element seemed easy, it worked. If you practice properly, you’ve succeeded. Under pressure, all those hours and hours of repetition translated to success more often than not. In our industry, it’s process-driven, it has to be unemotional. A bad shot in golf is the equivalent of a bad day in the market, you can’t let one bad day in the market influence everything you do for the next year. Same way on the golf course playing in a tournament, you can’t allow one golf shot to affect the rest of the round. We kid with our clients oftentimes that, while we are fundamentally their financial advisor, more often than not, we’re their financial therapist. We have to control their emotions and make sure they’re not making an irrational decision. For instance, a couple days ago we were out with a client the day that Iran shot down one of the US military helicopters and we’re sitting down at lunch and, all of a sudden, his phone starts blowing up because he’s getting all these Google alerts to the market heading in the wrong direction and he had to go do a life insurance test later on that afternoon. So, all week, he had prepped and he was calm and he was relaxed, he was really excited, he’s, “My wife is setting me up with a new insurance policy and I know it’s for her benefit but all my numbers look good, I’m going to ace this and my premiums will be really low because of it,” it was a $25 million policy. And as he’s looking at his phone and he sees the market collapsing in his mind, his blood pressure rose to no end, you could see that his anxiety level went through the roof and, had I not been there with him at the time to hold his hand through that process, his afternoon would’ve been shot. I would’ve got a phone call saying, “What are we doing to prevent 2% loss in my portfolio,” because that’s how he thinks and, in that moment, I was the therapist to talk him off a ledge. It’s so hard for individuals to manage the stress of the markets, that golfer mentality of, okay, just breathe, relax, let’s see what’s going on, let’s make an educated, confirmed decision, let’s circle back with our caddy if we’re on tour and competing and make a unified decision for the long-term success of the goal that we’re trying to achieve. And what we do every day is the same thing with our clients. Jason Diamond: It’s an incredibly thoughtful answer, I expected a version of the latter part of your answer. I appreciate that you added the part about just most clients like golf, enjoy talking about golf, enjoy playing golf and it’s an effective business development tool, there’s no question. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, I have two kids, a 12-year-old and an eight-year-old, my son who’s 12 who’s an exceptional soccer player and wants to, aspires to play professionally one day has now fallen in love with golf which I’m ecstatic about. I think golf and tennis, from a business development perspective- Jason Diamond: Yeah, lifelong sports. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: And I look at it now and my mentor when I started in the business was absolutely right. The fact that I could get a CEO of a Fortune 100 company to want to actively spend four hours with me where we could dive into the weeds about their personal life, their financial situation, their business, you could never get that time otherwise. I urge everyone who’s coming out of college or is going into college who wants to aspire to be in any type of sales related role, golf is a great venue to make long-term relationships. Jason Diamond: And importantly, tennis is not as good on the knees long-term or the back long-term. So, you stick to golf, you get a little more longevity out of it. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: It does help, yes. You’re right. Jason Diamond: My thought always goes to people call it the 15th club in golf, just this mental element of the game and to me it’s the clear moment in golf that always comes to mind for me is the 72nd hole. I don’t know if you just watched the US Women’s Open but Nelly Korda standing over a two-foot putt that I really thought she missed, is there an equivalent of that moment? Are you ever able to recreate that pressure in your current role or is that something that you miss? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Jason, we have those moments weekly, countless stories. Here’s where I love my job. I’ve transitioned from being the guy behind the screen who is just trading accounts, that’s where we all start and you have to have that foundational perspective of what’s involved in trading an account on a daily basis. Not that we ever picked stocks to an extensive level, we were generally managing ETFs, mutual funds and strategies but I’ll give you an example. So, just last week, we had a family and this is where the family office side comes in more so than the financial advisory services come in. We had spent four months in helping a family sell their business, it was a life altering moment, the dad started the business, the dad had been independently successful, net worth of well into eight figures, was happy and content, brought his son into the business, son was brilliant, saw an opportunity within the business and grew the business by 4,000%. Jason Diamond: Literally? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Yup. All because of this, the son saw a different direction and pivoted the business and grew it out and here he is, getting ready to have their first child and he gets approached by a firm to acquire his business. They’re ecstatic, the number was perfect, I thought it was overvalued, I was telling them that there’s no way they could turn it down because the number was too significant. Had they gone to the market, they would probably never achieve that level of return. And literally, the day of closing, as we’re expecting the wire to come through, the deal gets pulled. So, here you have the father who’s crushed because he was trying to provide something for his son, the son who’s just devastated because he now was preparing for the second stage of his life and you go through at that stage the classic stages of grief, it’s the cycle that goes through it. I was holding their hand through the three-month process up to there, every day, hourly calls, strategizing, building everything out, organizing the accounting team, organizing the attorneys, getting it all to work out. And here I am, father and son, unbelievably stressed, you have the wives in the background who can’t quite comprehend what’s going on, you have employees beneath them who are now confused as to there was a transition getting ready to take place and the only person who can step in under that critical moment to bring everybody back together was me. So, here I am thinking, 20 years ago, I’ll just pick stocks and bonds for individuals but now I’m in the middle of deal flow trying to help a family solve the issues that arise. So, those are hugely critical- Jason Diamond: Yeah, that’s right. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: …moments where, because our clients are our friends and family, we care for them like they’re our own, you become emotionally attached. And the same pressure that I felt when I won my first mini tour event after college, when I had to get up and down from the impossible bunker shot and I hit it to six feet and I made the crucial put to win my first $23,000 check which I thought was unbelievable, they gave you those big old-fashioned- Jason Diamond: The Happy Gilmore checks. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Exactly, right? It was the greatest day at that time. The stress of being in that bunker trying to hit that shot is the same stress I felt having two phones ringing, one the father, one the son where we have to keep that situation separate. So, you’re diving into unbelievably stressful situations and the best part is, when we get it all solved and literally yesterday we solved the entire dynamic of the business, I get a text from the son saying that this was the most incredible rollercoaster experience he’s ever experienced, that he’s incredibly grateful for all that I did and our team did for him and that, for the rest of his life, we will always be the first person he calls to solve any of his problems. So, for us, that’s the recreation of that stressful moment and then the victory on the back end. Twenty-five years ago, I got the big Happy Gilmore check. Yesterday, I got that text which I’ve printed out and framed and have it in my office as a constant memory of why it is we do what we do. Jason Diamond: And I would bet that’s more impactful than the $23,000. It’s an incredible story and I’ll tell you why, you said it but it’s as far away from stocks and bonds as you could possibly get. But I think, most advisors, a story like that resonates much more. It leads into my next question. You intentionally choose to service a high net worth segment of the market and I would assume that number’s probably creeping up, not down over time in terms of who you service. My thought is that’s a very competitive segment of the market as well. Is this how you differentiate is just you make it about those types of human examples or is there more to it? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: I’m envious of the advisor who could walk into a room of 200 people and they become the central focal point of the room where they can walk up to every single person and fearlessly ask them incredibly personal information, I’m not wired that way. For me, I’m very much the individual that I will find the one person that I have common ground with, I will deepen that relationship and I will add value and, because of the value that I create, I become a critical component of that individual’s success. And that’s how we’ve grown our business holistically at the firm largely buy that extra layer of service. We’re a commodity business. Being in South Florida, the clubs that I belong to, 10 to 15% of the members feel like they’re financial advisors. You could throw a rock anywhere and find a financial advisor so how do I differentiate myself? The only way I can truly differentiate myself and my firm is the level of service we provide, to go that extra step. To where, when we’re calling a client, they know I’m calling them to support their needs not because I’m seeking something for any ulterior motive. Jason Diamond: But you don’t mention financial planning or investment management or asset custody. Is that because I assume just that’s table stakes? Of course we do that but … Okay, yeah. Makes sense. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: That’s the easy part, right? That’s foundationally … And to your earlier point, you were asking the RIA model. One of the biggest challenges that we had down here in South Florida was the RIA model is new. If you were in the northeast, RIAs are very common, out west, incredibly common. Down here in South Florida, I just finished dealing with Bernie Madoff. Jason Diamond: You were fighting the good education fight a little bit. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: At Bernstein, 108 of our clients had assets with Bernie Madoff. Jason Diamond: Yeah. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, when you leave, one of our biggest growing curves as an RIA in South Florida was, when you leave the power of BNY Mellon or Bernstein and you’re some random little shop called Certuity, no one knows who you are. So, there was a big part of our education in the business was learning how to educate clients and prospective clients on the value of the RIA model and the fiduciary model in particular. Jason Diamond: Could you give me the 30-second answer to that if somebody says who are you, your prospect? I’ll tell you why I ask. Forget just Bernstein’s and BNYs of the world, a Morgan Stanley advisor or Merrill advisor has the exact same fear. I’m leaving Merrill to go launch Jason Diamond Wealth Management, my client’s going to say, “Well, who is that?” So, give me the quick pitch. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Your typical broker, let’s say, you’re not really hiring JP Morgan, you’re not really hiring Wells Fargo, you’re not hiring Goldman Sachs, you’re hiring the advisor who works for that institution. Now, yes, that advisor has the Rolodex of data and information available at the firm level but, ultimately, you’re entrusting that individual to make your decisions for you. The broker who leaves the brokerage model to open up their own brick and mortar operation has to then decide are they continuing down the wirehouse brokerage model where they’re transactional in nature, the economics behind that, far more profitable. The revenue streams affiliated with a brokerage house drastically blows us out of the water. But then you have to also look at yourself in the mirror so how are you running your book of business, how are you running your practice. So, to answer your 30-second question, the RIA model, in my opinion, is truly the only way any family of wealth should proceed with an advisory firm because you want an individual who is aligned in your goals and objectives. Our clients know that I’m their chief financial officer, I work for them. They task us with building out a financial strategy that is customized to their individual needs and they never have to worry do I have an ulterior motive as to why I’m presenting an option in that strategy. And, because of that, the fiduciary model, I think, is critical for our success as a firm and, again, as I mentioned earlier, I wish it’s something that was industry well and not the vast minority. Jason Diamond: Yeah. No, that’s a great answer. So, do you think then that, as time has gone on, this has gotten easier? I assume the answer is yes either because more clients are aware of your brand and/or more aware of the space as a whole. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: The first thing that helped the most was some gray hair. When I started at Bernstein, I attempted to solicit new clients very much the same way I do today. But when I was 26 years old and I’m sitting in front of a family worth and the dad was in the 70s and he lived his life and I’m younger than his kids, he would look at me and say, “What do you really know? What experience do you have?” So, doing this now for as long as I have, the number one thing that has helped me the most in growth is just wisdom and time. Without that, yes, you can be a rockstar stock picker. We have so many kids coming out of college today with the advent of AI and technology that have algorithms that could run unbelievable portfolios and there is a segment of the market who wants to hire and engage those individuals but, generally speaking, the families that we service, that is 10th or 12th on the list of importance. Jason Diamond: No, I think that’s spot on. I think most high net worth clients counterintuitively agree with that, that alpha, for lack of a better term, is really not the name of the game or not in the top five reasons why you would engage with a financial advisor. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Agreed. The biggest thing that we’ve been doing to educate clients especially in today’s environment, I had a call yesterday with an individual, a client who lives in New Jersey who works out of New York for a hedge fund, he knows our space incredibly well. He’s one of those kids, 28 years old, brilliant, as smart as you’ll ever be but his tax bracket is atrocious. He is paying so much of his W-2 income in taxes and building out a strategy that can reduce his tax liability by several hundred thousand dollars a year far exceeds any alpha I can generate by picking a top decile performer. Jason Diamond: What was the strategy? Move to Florida? I’m just kidding. Don’t answer that. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: We offered that but, unfortunately, he has to be physically in the office in New York City but yes. Jason Diamond: I think that will resonate, by the way, your gray hair comment. I appreciate the humility and the modesty in that because, the reality is, one of the questions I was going to ask you about was next-gen talent cultivation. In my opinion, this is a hard game for younger folks for that reason. People sit across from other people with a lot of money and they say, “Why am I going to entrust you with my life’s work when you just don’t have that degree of experience?” I was asking more even about your firm success and your firm story, have you felt like that’s caught on more? Do you have more brand awareness, if you will, now when you go to a prospect meeting or do you think you’re still constantly fighting that education fight? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, first part, brands, it’s improved in our immediate network. In our little bubble of the world, yes, it’s known. Let’s call it, in South Florida the influential attorneys, the accountants, the divorce attorneys know who we are because, having been down here long enough, we’ve had opportunities to work together. Our network of friends, certainly, the word spreads. But in the grand scheme of things, we are so small in the South Florida landscape or the LA landscape or the New York landscape so any incremental gain that we pick up is meaningful. And then, as it relates to young talent, our success is completely, long-term, derived by the young talent that we bring in to nurture them to help them grow. I look at our success, two of our critical mentors and board members of our firm are in their 80s, their children and grandchildren, nepotism aside, whether it was interning while in college or coming to work for us after school, they’re our best employees. And our goal as a firm, just like how I was offered the opportunity to become a partner and own a piece of the business, our goal long term will be to transition the business to this younger generation that we’re developing. I look at, again, those two board members who are in their 80s, the advice they’ve given me is don’t ever stop working, you have to be doing something. And I turn to them and say, “I don’t work every day.” I put in 20 hour days, well, not quite 20, 18 hour days but it’s never work because, what I do every day, I don’t deem it work, I love what I do, I don’t ever see myself stopping. Because they’ll tell me all of their friends that have stopped working or sold their business, invariably, the men die within six months because boredom and we always joke around that you’ll continue to work forever. So, I would hope that one day I transition into that advisory board member role where I step aside day-to-day activity where I’m now a mentor to our younger generation that we’re promoting into partners because we’ve made promises to our clients that we will forever be their family office. So, we have to, as part of our growth model, have those transitions in place because we’re servicing many families that have 85-year-old clients and two-year-old clients and we’re tasked with the two-year-olds as well as the 85-year-old. Jason Diamond: I also feel like there’s a little bit of younger generations I think have been reluctant to some degree to get it, you can disagree with this, to get into this space because there’s a more appeal to things like investment banking and sales and trading to some degree. The other problem obviously you alluded to is asset gathering. Your model speaks so clearly to success because you don’t say I own the client, that’s my relationship. To me, you plant the seeds of being able to handle succession much better than somebody who does the mine is mine and yours is yours approach. Is that fair? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: That’s completely accurate. And I think there’s two types of people that serve in the financial advisory space. You have the individual who is analytics driven, who likes being behind the bank of monitors trading account and there’s a critical part of our firm and our success is driven by the team in the office that aren’t necessarily client facing that do all the heavy lifting every day because they’re really doing the heavy work. Myself, my partners, the select few, while talented and able to do that, realize the value that we present is quarterbacking the relationship and helping understand all the components. We kid around that we’ve all stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, we’ve become experts in tax, we’ve become experts at trust and estate planning, we’ve become experts at divorce, we’ve become experts at the medical field. It’s shocking how it’s 2:00 in the morning and you get a phone call, panic attack by a client saying they need a doctor for X, Y and Z, can you connect me. So, the younger generation, yes, the sexy space is investment banking and that is really hard work. I could not do what my friends at Goldman do who are at these private mid-market funds, that’s just not me. I’ve been fortunate that I stumbled into an avenue in financial services that I think perfectly fits my personality and my want and desire to help others because that’s what we’re driven by and we try and hire people with that same mindset. The hardest thing as an RIA especially in South Florida is finding and retaining talent that is like-minded and that could function well within our family. Jason Diamond: If you build a firm predicated on culture and client service, I understand, certainly, the importance of that. I want to shift gears, I don’t want to lose this thought. You mentioned organic growth, it’s incredible. You have not mentioned inorganic growth at all and maybe because you haven’t had to but give me your thoughts on M&A, private equity in this space, do you have plans to sell the business, take on a capital partner, buy other RIAs? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Yeah. So, I understand why private equity in the last 10 years has come into the market. For years, they bought up insurance practices, that recurring revenue, sticky assets, it makes sense. Personally, I’m not a fan of them being in our markets, I think they’re motivated at the end of the day by AUM growth, revenue growth and the second transaction which, for most of our clients, would not make sense because, again, that then questions why it is that we’re motivated to do something. Am I taking extra risk in the portfolio because I want to grow the AUM because I’m looking to sell in a year? Am I bringing in a strategy that has a higher fee? For us, it doesn’t work. In the brokerage model, it makes perfect sense. Now, there are some RIAs who leave the wirehouses, open up an RIA shop, do really well for their clients but don’t have the long-term aspirations of making the institution a legacy to where they’re passing it off. I hope my kids one day want to come work for dad and follow in his steps, that’d be amazing. Just like our younger generation working at the firm, our goal is we’ve already targeted the three or four guys that will be partner one day and we’ll transition the business over to them. But it’s okay if there’s an RIA out there who doesn’t have that transition product or isn’t motivated by that and is looking at it as a vehicle that I’ve built a really good successful book of business and I want to now retire and spend time with my family and kids and travel, et cetera, and that’s where PE steps in and offers an attractive number and the person makes their move. So, I can’t fault the individual for wanting that and I’m not saying that they’re not doing well by their clients, it’s just, for us, I’m not a fan of it because, again, I’m first critically and always focused on what’s best for the client. Jason Diamond: Fair. And I largely agree with some of what you said around private equity in this space but private equity enables … Obviously, it’s capital so which enables acquisitions which is why a lot of firms take on private equity. So, what about the idea of potentially buying businesses to start up inorganic growth? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: We have gone down the road of acquiring other institutions potentially. The challenge is, because we manage money so uniquely and our approach is so different, I’m not going to bring on an institution or bring in a new partner to the firm or a new book of business that we’ve acquired if the methodology and the life of that book doesn’t mirror ours. So, yes, there is opportunities to grow through acquisition, it’s not something that we are leaning on heavily. However, for the right institution that’s available that is aligned with our thinking, whose clients would value and appreciate how we do things or, if that institution is doing something truly unique that we would want to bolt onto our platform, all day long because, again, for the benefit of the client, it makes sense. So, yes, there are opportunities for that. Too often we find that, when a book is available for acquisition, the highest bidder tends to win out and we don’t have the deep enough pockets to write a multiple that we don’t deem to be, let’s call it, market neutral. Jason Diamond: Yeah, market prudent. I understand the premise and I think that’s fair. I also think you have the luxury, because of your organic growth, you can be super, super picky about inorganic and I love how you bring it all back to the lens of the client. Can this improve the client experience in some way? And, if so, yes, we’ll take a look. I got time for one more question, I can’t believe time has flown. You’ve had a remarkable journey, professional golf now partner at a $4 billion plus on the way to $5 billion RIA multifamily office. What are you most proud of when you reflect on your career journey? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: What am I most proud of? To see what Rich, myself and Mark and Jayson built over these years from where we were sitting in a small conference room, struggling to figure out how do we find a way to hire a trust and estate attorney to help with that component, which CPAs do we bring on board in-house because clients have a need. So, the entrepreneurial spirit involved in growing the business, the late nights, the struggles, the banter back and forth, to put so much blood, sweat and tears into this and now to look at all that we’ve accomplished, being in four separate states with offices, having so many wonderful employees that have come to us from all over the world, Germany, from China, from Tokyo, bringing people in to the US and building out something that, when we leave at the end of the day, are incredibly proud of. My father’s no longer with us, for 50 years, I always strived to make him proud because he never told me that he was proud of me, he was the classic Greek old-fashioned dad. I think he looks down on his now for everything that we’ve built and would say that he’s proud of us so, for me, that’s the best. Jason Diamond: Yeah. That’s an incredible place to end. Thank you for sharing that, it’s a touching place to end and I appreciate you being open. Thank you. This has been one of my favorite episodes, your journey, your humility, your honesty, your transparency, it’s no wonder you’ve built a business you’ve built. So, thanks for joining us, Constantine. I look forward to having you back on to talk about the next chapter. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Thank you. Next time we’ll do it from the golf course. Jason Diamond: Oh, absolutely. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.   Lessons from the Links: From Golf Pro to $5B Family Office Partner A conversation with Jason Diamond and Constantine Hatzivassiliou, Partner at Certuity. Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Lessons from the Links: From Golf Pro to $5B Family Office Partner. It’s a conversation with Constantine Hatzivassiliou, partner at Certuity. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned and, each year, one in four advisors managing $1 billion or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report, it’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions, download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: Golf is a way of exposing who you really are, there are no teammates to blame, no clock to run out and no hiding from a bad decision. Every shot demands discipline, patience and the ability to stay focused when the pressure is highest, my guest today knows that firsthand. Before becoming a partner at Certuity, a multifamily office approaching five billion in assets, Constantine Hatzivassiliou was pursuing a career as a professional golfer. An injury ultimately redirected his path towards wealth management but many of the lessons he learned on the course still shaped the way he serves clients today. Certuity has grown from roughly 210 million in assets to nearly five billion, that’s impressive on its own but the more interesting story is how they’ve done it. The firm has grown largely through referrals built around a multifamily office model and focused on becoming far more than an investment advisor to the families it serves. In Constantine’s view, the best advisors aren’t simply managing portfolios, they’re the first person clients call when a business is being sold, a family issue becomes complicated or a major decision carries consequences well beyond the balance sheet. Constantine and I discuss the lessons golf teaches about handling pressure then we dive into the evolution from the traditional wealth management world to the multifamily office model, why referrals drive nearly all of Certuity’s growth, how he thinks about private equity’s influence on the advisory business and what it takes to become the first call for the wealthy families they serve and perhaps, most importantly, why the same qualities that help someone succeed on a golf course may be surprisingly relevant to building trust over a lifetime. It’s a great conversation so let’s dive in. Constantine, thank you so much for joining, thrilled to have you here. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Thank you for having me, excited to be here. Jason Diamond: Yeah, absolutely. So, you had an unconventional path to wealth management, you started as a professional golfer, I think that’s a first for us on this show, before ultimately transitioning into this world. Can you tell us a little bit about the journey and what brought you here? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Yeah, I never thought I’d be here, my parents were certainly shocked that I got here path wise. Growing up, immigrants from Greece, you settle into Florida the traditional way where you either go down the diner route or the gas station route in mechanics which my father was the latter and school and education was never priority, it was always about supporting the family needs. So, next thing you know, sports are a critical part of any good household, that’s how I was raised and I played everything but golf. I grew up on a golf course because my parents believed that a location of a property was critical to long-term financial success. We lived on a golf course, it was in our backyard, we’d stare at it and we’d use it to play football or baseball or anything but actual golf. And my freshman year at the University of Florida, I started dating a girl on the golf team and she got me hooked to the point where, after four years of hitting balls with the women’s and men’s golf team at the University of Florida for six hours a day, we finished school and realized I’m actually pretty good at the game and, while I have a finance and economics background and degree, let’s try and pursue this for a living and I was blessed. I had a sponsor who helped me succeed at golf on a small scale, it was a humbling experience to say the least. I was competing and playing with Sean O’Hair, Ken Duke, guys who made it out on tour for a very long time, we had the same sponsor so we functioned as a team, it was a collegiate team effectively trying to make it out on tour. And, unfortunately, my second year of competing, I blew out my back doing heavy deadlifts which set me aside for 18 months. While I was recovering, my primary sponsor was in financial services and says, “Hey, you have a background in this, it’s killing you not being able to be on the golf course, why don’t you come work for me while you’re rehabbing so that, when you get back to playing golf, it’s easier for you to talk about our business as a sponsor to try and develop business to throw it to the financial services side?” And Jason, the reality is, after 18 months working there, I fell in love with it. I made way more money working in that environment than I ever would’ve made playing golf because, again, I came to the game late. I was decent but I was nowhere near the caliber of players that are succeeding now out on tour. So, I pivoted after having met my wife and decided to settle down into the wealth management space and, what is it now, 26 years later, going strong. So, it’s been a fun transition from golf into wealth management to say the least. Jason Diamond: Probably my favorite background … I watch a lot of golf, I should caveat that, probably my favorite origin story we’ve had, I’ll give you the Wanamaker trophy or whatever you get, first place. Let’s talk about the business now, so Certuity. For our audience who may not be familiar, tell us a little bit about the firm, what types of clients do you serve and any context you can provide on size as well. We’ll talk about how your firm got there but just give us where we are today to start with. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, goal by the end of the year is to have $5 billion in AUM, we’re just shy of that now. We currently service 428 families across the country. So, we’re boutiquey and nimble, we’re based in South Florida, we have offices in New York, San Fran and LA. I’m fortunate to be one of four partners at the firm supporting the growth and the direction of the company and it’s a fun endeavor in the sense that, when we first started, I was employee number four 16 years ago and, with 210 million in AUM at the time to grow it to where we are today, to learn all the things that we have over the years, the curve balls that were thrown at us because all of us came from massive institutional wealth management firms. So, we transitioned from the Bernsteins of the world, the BNY Mellons of the world into an RIA in the South Florida market, there was absolutely an entrepreneurial learning curve involved. Jason Diamond: I bet. And on follow-up question, 16 years ago, did you have a book of business, client business and do you still maintain a book of business today? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: I do. The four of us at the firm share in all of the clients, we work together. Being in the Southeast, I’m responsible for, let’s call it, the Southeast demographics of the US which is a large portion of Certuity’s book. I have a partner in Tennessee, I have a partner in LA and San Francisco and we divide and conquer across the country. But, yes, we came over with a small book, we’ve all grown it organically since then. So, we’ve been very effective in how we’ve grown. Jason Diamond: Just from adding new client money? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Strictly through new clients referred to us by existing clients. Jason Diamond: Wow. I want to talk more about the growth because that’s remarkable. But before I do, can we double click on the service model? So, I would say the most typical we hear, I think more of our guests typically come from the wirehouse world where it’s I have my book, you have your book. What does your service model look like? So, is it truly, if it’s working well from the end client perspective, you should be interchangeable with your partners and it’s a true team approach? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: How we engage our clients, the theory should be I can get hit by a bus tomorrow and outside of the client not being able to speak to me directly, they will not have a hiccup in any way, shape or form. And when we’re dealing with families across multiple generations, the way we’ve built our platform, that continuity is critical in the engagement process for the clients hiring us to help them through all of the challenges that they face. Jason Diamond: What’s your sweet spot in terms of client size? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Our average client size today has just shy of eight million AUM with us. We have some clients who have $1 million certainly but they’re strategic in that their friends, their family, they could be centers of influence who help send business our way because they value what it is that we do and there’s a strategic partnership because we might need them for their trust and estate services or their accounting work and they have clients who have a need and we’re on the short list of people they refer to. Jason Diamond: That they trust. Yeah, makes sense. So, I’ve seen this in the news and also even on your own internal materials, I’ve seen you described as both a modern multifamily office, you’ll also obviously hear the term RIA as well. Does that distinction matter at all? And maybe my second part of that question would be what is the distinction between that space, whatever you call it, and the more traditional firm world from a client service perspective? You mentioned that all of your partners from that world. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: I started in this industry truly at an institutional level at Bernstein in New York and, for anyone who knows Bernstein, they really do brainwash you on the fiduciary model and the values affiliated with that philosophy has translated through my career at BNY Mellon which has a very similar feel as Bernstein. And then, when we came here, we instilled that same core value principle of fiduciary responsibility for our clients so we are very different than a traditional wirehouse or brokerage house, it is why we’ve grown so successfully. I would never, one, work for an institution that did bide by those standards and, secondarily, I wished Congress and Senate would turn around and actually implement a mandatory fiduciary liability for all financial advisors because, far too often, we see prospective clients or families get taken advantage of because the individual sitting across from them giving them financial advice is not necessarily aligned with their goals and objectives. Jason Diamond: So, I take it you are fee only. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: We are fee only. Jason Diamond: Yeah. I don’t want to lose the thread on the first part of my question. Do you think there is a distinction between a multifamily office and an RIA? I don’t want to lead you here but to me it implies a different level or different caliber of service model that probably includes more of the ancillary trust and estate and CPA type stuff that higher network clients need but curious what your thoughts are. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Our first seven years at the firm, we were strictly an RIA, we functioned as an advisory service provider to our clients. What attracted me and my partners to Certuity was the nimbleness of the firm. So, for instance, at BNY Mellon, we often deemed a change necessary as moving an aircraft carrier across the world but it was an impossible task to accomplish. But when you’re small and nimble and clients come to you with a need and you’re in the service, ultimately, first and foremost, it made sense for us to start building out family office services for our clients because they had a need and we found it as a way to centralize everything because, far too often, when the communication standards break down between all the individual parts, one, it’s more expensive for the clients and, two, the process isn’t efficient, things get missed. So, we tried, largely due to our growth, to bring everything in house and our clients appreciate that for it. Jason Diamond: So, this is not a chicken and egg situation, this is very much we had large clients, we were attracting large clients and, in order to service them optimally, here’s what we felt we needed to build. Is that fair? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: 100%. Jason Diamond: Let’s shift gears, I need to go deeper on the professional golf thread a little bit. I promise I won’t make the whole interview about your golf background. I’m curious if you feel like that experience or that, I don’t know, upbringing or, I guess, background laid any foundation for the way you engage with clients today or the way you operate as a business leader today. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, there’s a couple parts to that. The golf side, certainly, just from an engaging client perspective, 90% of our clients are golfers. Jason Diamond: It’s very true. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Right. It just helps because of our background and certainly with some of the clients and partners that we have at the firm, golf is a critical thread in what we do. However, when it comes to golf, what I learned playing golf at a high level directly translates to how we manage money for clients and I’ll express it this way. There’s generally two types of golfers, there’s the artist, the Sergios of the world who don’t fundamentally function off of specific points in their swing or a very structured platform, they see something, their mind becomes creative and they execute on it. I was never that way, I am a numbers person, I think everything analytically, I break everything down to the minute, everything is strategized and organized, I was taught to practice that way by Coach Alexander at the University of Florida and that foundational element seemed easy, it worked. If you practice properly, you’ve succeeded. Under pressure, all those hours and hours of repetition translated to success more often than not. In our industry, it’s process-driven, it has to be unemotional. A bad shot in golf is the equivalent of a bad day in the market, you can’t let one bad day in the market influence everything you do for the next year. Same way on the golf course playing in a tournament, you can’t allow one golf shot to affect the rest of the round. We kid with our clients oftentimes that, while we are fundamentally their financial advisor, more often than not, we’re their financial therapist. We have to control their emotions and make sure they’re not making an irrational decision. For instance, a couple days ago we were out with a client the day that Iran shot down one of the US military helicopters and we’re sitting down at lunch and, all of a sudden, his phone starts blowing up because he’s getting all these Google alerts to the market heading in the wrong direction and he had to go do a life insurance test later on that afternoon. So, all week, he had prepped and he was calm and he was relaxed, he was really excited, he’s, “My wife is setting me up with a new insurance policy and I know it’s for her benefit but all my numbers look good, I’m going to ace this and my premiums will be really low because of it,” it was a $25 million policy. And as he’s looking at his phone and he sees the market collapsing in his mind, his blood pressure rose to no end, you could see that his anxiety level went through the roof and, had I not been there with him at the time to hold his hand through that process, his afternoon would’ve been shot. I would’ve got a phone call saying, “What are we doing to prevent 2% loss in my portfolio,” because that’s how he thinks and, in that moment, I was the therapist to talk him off a ledge. It’s so hard for individuals to manage the stress of the markets, that golfer mentality of, okay, just breathe, relax, let’s see what’s going on, let’s make an educated, confirmed decision, let’s circle back with our caddy if we’re on tour and competing and make a unified decision for the long-term success of the goal that we’re trying to achieve. And what we do every day is the same thing with our clients. Jason Diamond: It’s an incredibly thoughtful answer, I expected a version of the latter part of your answer. I appreciate that you added the part about just most clients like golf, enjoy talking about golf, enjoy playing golf and it’s an effective business development tool, there’s no question. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, I have two kids, a 12-year-old and an eight-year-old, my son who’s 12 who’s an exceptional soccer player and wants to, aspires to play professionally one day has now fallen in love with golf which I’m ecstatic about. I think golf and tennis, from a business development perspective- Jason Diamond: Yeah, lifelong sports. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: And I look at it now and my mentor when I started in the business was absolutely right. The fact that I could get a CEO of a Fortune 100 company to want to actively spend four hours with me where we could dive into the weeds about their personal life, their financial situation, their business, you could never get that time otherwise. I urge everyone who’s coming out of college or is going into college who wants to aspire to be in any type of sales related role, golf is a great venue to make long-term relationships. Jason Diamond: And importantly, tennis is not as good on the knees long-term or the back long-term. So, you stick to golf, you get a little more longevity out of it. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: It does help, yes. You’re right. Jason Diamond: My thought always goes to people call it the 15th club in golf, just this mental element of the game and to me it’s the clear moment in golf that always comes to mind for me is the 72nd hole. I don’t know if you just watched the US Women’s Open but Nelly Korda standing over a two-foot putt that I really thought she missed, is there an equivalent of that moment? Are you ever able to recreate that pressure in your current role or is that something that you miss? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Jason, we have those moments weekly, countless stories. Here’s where I love my job. I’ve transitioned from being the guy behind the screen who is just trading accounts, that’s where we all start and you have to have that foundational perspective of what’s involved in trading an account on a daily basis. Not that we ever picked stocks to an extensive level, we were generally managing ETFs, mutual funds and strategies but I’ll give you an example. So, just last week, we had a family and this is where the family office side comes in more so than the financial advisory services come in. We had spent four months in helping a family sell their business, it was a life altering moment, the dad started the business, the dad had been independently successful, net worth of well into eight figures, was happy and content, brought his son into the business, son was brilliant, saw an opportunity within the business and grew the business by 4,000%. Jason Diamond: Literally? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Yup. All because of this, the son saw a different direction and pivoted the business and grew it out and here he is, getting ready to have their first child and he gets approached by a firm to acquire his business. They’re ecstatic, the number was perfect, I thought it was overvalued, I was telling them that there’s no way they could turn it down because the number was too significant. Had they gone to the market, they would probably never achieve that level of return. And literally, the day of closing, as we’re expecting the wire to come through, the deal gets pulled. So, here you have the father who’s crushed because he was trying to provide something for his son, the son who’s just devastated because he now was preparing for the second stage of his life and you go through at that stage the classic stages of grief, it’s the cycle that goes through it. I was holding their hand through the three-month process up to there, every day, hourly calls, strategizing, building everything out, organizing the accounting team, organizing the attorneys, getting it all to work out. And here I am, father and son, unbelievably stressed, you have the wives in the background who can’t quite comprehend what’s going on, you have employees beneath them who are now confused as to there was a transition getting ready to take place and the only person who can step in under that critical moment to bring everybody back together was me. So, here I am thinking, 20 years ago, I’ll just pick stocks and bonds for individuals but now I’m in the middle of deal flow trying to help a family solve the issues that arise. So, those are hugely critical- Jason Diamond: Yeah, that’s right. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: …moments where, because our clients are our friends and family, we care for them like they’re our own, you become emotionally attached. And the same pressure that I felt when I won my first mini tour event after college, when I had to get up and down from the impossible bunker shot and I hit it to six feet and I made the crucial put to win my first $23,000 check which I thought was unbelievable, they gave you those big old-fashioned- Jason Diamond: The Happy Gilmore checks. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Exactly, right? It was the greatest day at that time. The stress of being in that bunker trying to hit that shot is the same stress I felt having two phones ringing, one the father, one the son where we have to keep that situation separate. So, you’re diving into unbelievably stressful situations and the best part is, when we get it all solved and literally yesterday we solved the entire dynamic of the business, I get a text from the son saying that this was the most incredible rollercoaster experience he’s ever experienced, that he’s incredibly grateful for all that I did and our team did for him and that, for the rest of his life, we will always be the first person he calls to solve any of his problems. So, for us, that’s the recreation of that stressful moment and then the victory on the back end. Twenty-five years ago, I got the big Happy Gilmore check. Yesterday, I got that text which I’ve printed out and framed and have it in my office as a constant memory of why it is we do what we do. Jason Diamond: And I would bet that’s more impactful than the $23,000. It’s an incredible story and I’ll tell you why, you said it but it’s as far away from stocks and bonds as you could possibly get. But I think, most advisors, a story like that resonates much more. It leads into my next question. You intentionally choose to service a high net worth segment of the market and I would assume that number’s probably creeping up, not down over time in terms of who you service. My thought is that’s a very competitive segment of the market as well. Is this how you differentiate is just you make it about those types of human examples or is there more to it? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: I’m envious of the advisor who could walk into a room of 200 people and they become the central focal point of the room where they can walk up to every single person and fearlessly ask them incredibly personal information, I’m not wired that way. For me, I’m very much the individual that I will find the one person that I have common ground with, I will deepen that relationship and I will add value and, because of the value that I create, I become a critical component of that individual’s success. And that’s how we’ve grown our business holistically at the firm largely buy that extra layer of service. We’re a commodity business. Being in South Florida, the clubs that I belong to, 10 to 15% of the members feel like they’re financial advisors. You could throw a rock anywhere and find a financial advisor so how do I differentiate myself? The only way I can truly differentiate myself and my firm is the level of service we provide, to go that extra step. To where, when we’re calling a client, they know I’m calling them to support their needs not because I’m seeking something for any ulterior motive. Jason Diamond: But you don’t mention financial planning or investment management or asset custody. Is that because I assume just that’s table stakes? Of course we do that but … Okay, yeah. Makes sense. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: That’s the easy part, right? That’s foundationally … And to your earlier point, you were asking the RIA model. One of the biggest challenges that we had down here in South Florida was the RIA model is new. If you were in the northeast, RIAs are very common, out west, incredibly common. Down here in South Florida, I just finished dealing with Bernie Madoff. Jason Diamond: You were fighting the good education fight a little bit. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: At Bernstein, 108 of our clients had assets with Bernie Madoff. Jason Diamond: Yeah. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, when you leave, one of our biggest growing curves as an RIA in South Florida was, when you leave the power of BNY Mellon or Bernstein and you’re some random little shop called Certuity, no one knows who you are. So, there was a big part of our education in the business was learning how to educate clients and prospective clients on the value of the RIA model and the fiduciary model in particular. Jason Diamond: Could you give me the 30-second answer to that if somebody says who are you, your prospect? I’ll tell you why I ask. Forget just Bernstein’s and BNYs of the world, a Morgan Stanley advisor or Merrill advisor has the exact same fear. I’m leaving Merrill to go launch Jason Diamond Wealth Management, my client’s going to say, “Well, who is that?” So, give me the quick pitch. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Your typical broker, let’s say, you’re not really hiring JP Morgan, you’re not really hiring Wells Fargo, you’re not hiring Goldman Sachs, you’re hiring the advisor who works for that institution. Now, yes, that advisor has the Rolodex of data and information available at the firm level but, ultimately, you’re entrusting that individual to make your decisions for you. The broker who leaves the brokerage model to open up their own brick and mortar operation has to then decide are they continuing down the wirehouse brokerage model where they’re transactional in nature, the economics behind that, far more profitable. The revenue streams affiliated with a brokerage house drastically blows us out of the water. But then you have to also look at yourself in the mirror so how are you running your book of business, how are you running your practice. So, to answer your 30-second question, the RIA model, in my opinion, is truly the only way any family of wealth should proceed with an advisory firm because you want an individual who is aligned in your goals and objectives. Our clients know that I’m their chief financial officer, I work for them. They task us with building out a financial strategy that is customized to their individual needs and they never have to worry do I have an ulterior motive as to why I’m presenting an option in that strategy. And, because of that, the fiduciary model, I think, is critical for our success as a firm and, again, as I mentioned earlier, I wish it’s something that was industry well and not the vast minority. Jason Diamond: Yeah. No, that’s a great answer. So, do you think then that, as time has gone on, this has gotten easier? I assume the answer is yes either because more clients are aware of your brand and/or more aware of the space as a whole. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: The first thing that helped the most was some gray hair. When I started at Bernstein, I attempted to solicit new clients very much the same way I do today. But when I was 26 years old and I’m sitting in front of a family worth and the dad was in the 70s and he lived his life and I’m younger than his kids, he would look at me and say, “What do you really know? What experience do you have?” So, doing this now for as long as I have, the number one thing that has helped me the most in growth is just wisdom and time. Without that, yes, you can be a rockstar stock picker. We have so many kids coming out of college today with the advent of AI and technology that have algorithms that could run unbelievable portfolios and there is a segment of the market who wants to hire and engage those individuals but, generally speaking, the families that we service, that is 10th or 12th on the list of importance. Jason Diamond: No, I think that’s spot on. I think most high net worth clients counterintuitively agree with that, that alpha, for lack of a better term, is really not the name of the game or not in the top five reasons why you would engage with a financial advisor. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Agreed. The biggest thing that we’ve been doing to educate clients especially in today’s environment, I had a call yesterday with an individual, a client who lives in New Jersey who works out of New York for a hedge fund, he knows our space incredibly well. He’s one of those kids, 28 years old, brilliant, as smart as you’ll ever be but his tax bracket is atrocious. He is paying so much of his W-2 income in taxes and building out a strategy that can reduce his tax liability by several hundred thousand dollars a year far exceeds any alpha I can generate by picking a top decile performer. Jason Diamond: What was the strategy? Move to Florida? I’m just kidding. Don’t answer that. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: We offered that but, unfortunately, he has to be physically in the office in New York City but yes. Jason Diamond: I think that will resonate, by the way, your gray hair comment. I appreciate the humility and the modesty in that because, the reality is, one of the questions I was going to ask you about was next-gen talent cultivation. In my opinion, this is a hard game for younger folks for that reason. People sit across from other people with a lot of money and they say, “Why am I going to entrust you with my life’s work when you just don’t have that degree of experience?” I was asking more even about your firm success and your firm story, have you felt like that’s caught on more? Do you have more brand awareness, if you will, now when you go to a prospect meeting or do you think you’re still constantly fighting that education fight? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: So, first part, brands, it’s improved in our immediate network. In our little bubble of the world, yes, it’s known. Let’s call it, in South Florida the influential attorneys, the accountants, the divorce attorneys know who we are because, having been down here long enough, we’ve had opportunities to work together. Our network of friends, certainly, the word spreads. But in the grand scheme of things, we are so small in the South Florida landscape or the LA landscape or the New York landscape so any incremental gain that we pick up is meaningful. And then, as it relates to young talent, our success is completely, long-term, derived by the young talent that we bring in to nurture them to help them grow. I look at our success, two of our critical mentors and board members of our firm are in their 80s, their children and grandchildren, nepotism aside, whether it was interning while in college or coming to work for us after school, they’re our best employees. And our goal as a firm, just like how I was offered the opportunity to become a partner and own a piece of the business, our goal long term will be to transition the business to this younger generation that we’re developing. I look at, again, those two board members who are in their 80s, the advice they’ve given me is don’t ever stop working, you have to be doing something. And I turn to them and say, “I don’t work every day.” I put in 20 hour days, well, not quite 20, 18 hour days but it’s never work because, what I do every day, I don’t deem it work, I love what I do, I don’t ever see myself stopping. Because they’ll tell me all of their friends that have stopped working or sold their business, invariably, the men die within six months because boredom and we always joke around that you’ll continue to work forever. So, I would hope that one day I transition into that advisory board member role where I step aside day-to-day activity where I’m now a mentor to our younger generation that we’re promoting into partners because we’ve made promises to our clients that we will forever be their family office. So, we have to, as part of our growth model, have those transitions in place because we’re servicing many families that have 85-year-old clients and two-year-old clients and we’re tasked with the two-year-olds as well as the 85-year-old. Jason Diamond: I also feel like there’s a little bit of younger generations I think have been reluctant to some degree to get it, you can disagree with this, to get into this space because there’s a more appeal to things like investment banking and sales and trading to some degree. The other problem obviously you alluded to is asset gathering. Your model speaks so clearly to success because you don’t say I own the client, that’s my relationship. To me, you plant the seeds of being able to handle succession much better than somebody who does the mine is mine and yours is yours approach. Is that fair? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: That’s completely accurate. And I think there’s two types of people that serve in the financial advisory space. You have the individual who is analytics driven, who likes being behind the bank of monitors trading account and there’s a critical part of our firm and our success is driven by the team in the office that aren’t necessarily client facing that do all the heavy lifting every day because they’re really doing the heavy work. Myself, my partners, the select few, while talented and able to do that, realize the value that we present is quarterbacking the relationship and helping understand all the components. We kid around that we’ve all stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night, we’ve become experts in tax, we’ve become experts at trust and estate planning, we’ve become experts at divorce, we’ve become experts at the medical field. It’s shocking how it’s 2:00 in the morning and you get a phone call, panic attack by a client saying they need a doctor for X, Y and Z, can you connect me. So, the younger generation, yes, the sexy space is investment banking and that is really hard work. I could not do what my friends at Goldman do who are at these private mid-market funds, that’s just not me. I’ve been fortunate that I stumbled into an avenue in financial services that I think perfectly fits my personality and my want and desire to help others because that’s what we’re driven by and we try and hire people with that same mindset. The hardest thing as an RIA especially in South Florida is finding and retaining talent that is like-minded and that could function well within our family. Jason Diamond: If you build a firm predicated on culture and client service, I understand, certainly, the importance of that. I want to shift gears, I don’t want to lose this thought. You mentioned organic growth, it’s incredible. You have not mentioned inorganic growth at all and maybe because you haven’t had to but give me your thoughts on M&A, private equity in this space, do you have plans to sell the business, take on a capital partner, buy other RIAs? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Yeah. So, I understand why private equity in the last 10 years has come into the market. For years, they bought up insurance practices, that recurring revenue, sticky assets, it makes sense. Personally, I’m not a fan of them being in our markets, I think they’re motivated at the end of the day by AUM growth, revenue growth and the second transaction which, for most of our clients, would not make sense because, again, that then questions why it is that we’re motivated to do something. Am I taking extra risk in the portfolio because I want to grow the AUM because I’m looking to sell in a year? Am I bringing in a strategy that has a higher fee? For us, it doesn’t work. In the brokerage model, it makes perfect sense. Now, there are some RIAs who leave the wirehouses, open up an RIA shop, do really well for their clients but don’t have the long-term aspirations of making the institution a legacy to where they’re passing it off. I hope my kids one day want to come work for dad and follow in his steps, that’d be amazing. Just like our younger generation working at the firm, our goal is we’ve already targeted the three or four guys that will be partner one day and we’ll transition the business over to them. But it’s okay if there’s an RIA out there who doesn’t have that transition product or isn’t motivated by that and is looking at it as a vehicle that I’ve built a really good successful book of business and I want to now retire and spend time with my family and kids and travel, et cetera, and that’s where PE steps in and offers an attractive number and the person makes their move. So, I can’t fault the individual for wanting that and I’m not saying that they’re not doing well by their clients, it’s just, for us, I’m not a fan of it because, again, I’m first critically and always focused on what’s best for the client. Jason Diamond: Fair. And I largely agree with some of what you said around private equity in this space but private equity enables … Obviously, it’s capital so which enables acquisitions which is why a lot of firms take on private equity. So, what about the idea of potentially buying businesses to start up inorganic growth? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: We have gone down the road of acquiring other institutions potentially. The challenge is, because we manage money so uniquely and our approach is so different, I’m not going to bring on an institution or bring in a new partner to the firm or a new book of business that we’ve acquired if the methodology and the life of that book doesn’t mirror ours. So, yes, there is opportunities to grow through acquisition, it’s not something that we are leaning on heavily. However, for the right institution that’s available that is aligned with our thinking, whose clients would value and appreciate how we do things or, if that institution is doing something truly unique that we would want to bolt onto our platform, all day long because, again, for the benefit of the client, it makes sense. So, yes, there are opportunities for that. Too often we find that, when a book is available for acquisition, the highest bidder tends to win out and we don’t have the deep enough pockets to write a multiple that we don’t deem to be, let’s call it, market neutral. Jason Diamond: Yeah, market prudent. I understand the premise and I think that’s fair. I also think you have the luxury, because of your organic growth, you can be super, super picky about inorganic and I love how you bring it all back to the lens of the client. Can this improve the client experience in some way? And, if so, yes, we’ll take a look. I got time for one more question, I can’t believe time has flown. You’ve had a remarkable journey, professional golf now partner at a $4 billion plus on the way to $5 billion RIA multifamily office. What are you most proud of when you reflect on your career journey? Constantine Hatzivassiliou: What am I most proud of? To see what Rich, myself and Mark and Jayson built over these years from where we were sitting in a small conference room, struggling to figure out how do we find a way to hire a trust and estate attorney to help with that component, which CPAs do we bring on board in-house because clients have a need. So, the entrepreneurial spirit involved in growing the business, the late nights, the struggles, the banter back and forth, to put so much blood, sweat and tears into this and now to look at all that we’ve accomplished, being in four separate states with offices, having so many wonderful employees that have come to us from all over the world, Germany, from China, from Tokyo, bringing people in to the US and building out something that, when we leave at the end of the day, are incredibly proud of. My father’s no longer with us, for 50 years, I always strived to make him proud because he never told me that he was proud of me, he was the classic Greek old-fashioned dad. I think he looks down on his now for everything that we’ve built and would say that he’s proud of us so, for me, that’s the best. Jason Diamond: Yeah. That’s an incredible place to end. Thank you for sharing that, it’s a touching place to end and I appreciate you being open. Thank you. This has been one of my favorite episodes, your journey, your humility, your honesty, your transparency, it’s no wonder you’ve built a business you’ve built. So, thanks for joining us, Constantine. I look forward to having you back on to talk about the next chapter. Constantine Hatzivassiliou: Thank you. Next time we’ll do it from the golf course. Jason Diamond: Oh, absolutely. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.  

With James Woodfall, Communication and Behavior Specialist, Raise Your EI As AI makes expertise more accessible, what becomes an advisor’s true advantage? EI expert James Woodfall explains why authentic human connection may be the one thing technology can’t replicate. In Summary As artificial intelligence reshapes how information is delivered, financial advisors are being challenged to rethink what truly differentiates their value. Mindy Diamond sits down with James Woodfall, a former wealth management business owner turned emotional intelligence expert and founder of Raise Your EI, to explore why emotional intelligence may become one of the profession’s greatest competitive advantages. Together, they discuss how rapport, curiosity, and authentic human connection influence trust, referrals, leadership, and client loyalty and why those skills can be developed just like technical expertise. The conversation also examines the difference between AI’s “synthetic empathy” and the authentic relationships clients continue to value—and why that distinction matters to financial advisors now more than ever.   The Storyline For decades, advisors have built successful businesses by combining technical expertise with thoughtful financial guidance. But as AI makes information more accessible and planning tools more sophisticated, expertise alone is becoming less of a differentiator. James Woodfall believes the future belongs to advisors who master something technology cannot authentically replicate: human connection. Drawing on his experience as both a former wealth management firm owner and a specialist in communication and behavioral science, James explains why emotional intelligence isn’t simply a “soft skill.” It’s a business skill that affects nearly every aspect of an advisory practice—from building trust and earning referrals to leading teams and helping clients make difficult decisions. Mindy and James explore why asking better questions matters more than having better answers, how curiosity creates stronger relationships than scripts ever can, and why advisors who create memorable client experiences may find themselves even more valuable in an increasingly automated world. The conversation ultimately reframes AI not as a replacement for advisors, but as a catalyst forcing the profession to rediscover the uniquely human qualities clients have valued all along.   Topics Covered Emotional intelligence as a business skill Building trust through rapport and curiosity Authentic empathy vs. synthetic AI empathy The psychology behind client decision-making Why referrals are rooted in emotional outcomes Coaching advisors to improve communication Leadership and emotional intelligence AI’s impact on advisor differentiation Creating premium client experiences Future-proofing advisory businesses > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why do better questions lead to better financial advice? (6:10) James explains why financial planning is only as good as the conversations that precede it—and why understanding a client’s fears and aspirations leads to better outcomes than simply gathering financial facts. How does emotional intelligence translate into business growth? (15:30) Rapport isn’t simply about making clients feel comfortable. James discusses why advisors who build trust quickly tend to earn more referrals and become significantly more referable. Can emotional intelligence actually be learned? (37:05) Contrary to popular belief, emotional intelligence isn’t an innate personality trait. James explains why it is a trainable skill and how advisors can intentionally improve it throughout their careers. What makes authentic empathy different from AI? (39:10) One of the episode’s most compelling discussions explores the difference between AI’s ability to simulate empathy and the authentic emotional connection that develops between two people. Why should advisors think more about experience than efficiency? (45:10) Clients don’t always pay more for information. Often, they pay more for confidence, judgment, reassurance, and the experience of working with someone they trust. Will AI replace advisors or elevate the best ones? (46:55) James shares why he believes AI is more likely to automate routine work while making relationship-centered advisors even more valuable. Key Takeaways Emotional intelligence is a measurable business capability—not simply a personality trait. Stronger client relationships begin with curiosity rather than advice. Advisors who solve emotional concerns make it easier for clients to recommend than advisors who simply deliver technical expertise. AI may replicate information, but authentic trust remains distinctly human. Premium advisory relationships will increasingly be defined by the experience clients receive—not just the answers they’re given. Emotional intelligence improves leadership, client retention, referrals, and advisor well-being. The firms that embrace both technology and human connection will likely be best positioned for the future. https://youtu.be/xlQMQm6mqtc Quotable Moments “Rapport building is one of the foundational things for trust building.” “It’s not real empathy. It’s synthetic empathy.” “If all of our decisions were made on price, Ferrari wouldn’t have a business.” “The advisors who create authentic human connection may be the ones who remain untouchable.” FAQs What is emotional intelligence, and why does it matter for financial advisors? James defines emotional intelligence as the ability to recognize, understand, and influence emotions in ourselves and others. For advisors, those skills strengthen communication, trust, leadership, and client relationships. Can emotional intelligence actually be developed? Yes. Unlike IQ, emotional intelligence can be improved through intentional practice, feedback, coaching, and greater self-awareness. Why do referrals have so much to do with emotional intelligence? Clients often remember and recommend how an advisor made them feel more than the technical work performed. Solving emotional concerns creates stories clients naturally share with others. What does James mean by “synthetic empathy”? AI can recognize language patterns and respond empathetically, but it doesn’t genuinely experience human emotion. James argues that authentic empathy remains one of an advisor’s greatest competitive advantages. How should advisors think about AI? Rather than viewing AI solely as a competitor, advisors should use it to improve efficiency while investing more time in conversations, judgment, and relationships that technology cannot fully replace. What is the biggest mindset shift advisors should make? Stop viewing emotional intelligence as a soft skill. Treat it as a business skill that directly influences growth, leadership, client loyalty, and long-term differentiation. James defines emotional intelligence as the ability to recognize, understand, and influence emotions in ourselves and others. For advisors, those skills strengthen communication, trust, leadership, and client relationships. Yes. Unlike IQ, emotional intelligence can be improved through intentional practice, feedback, coaching, and greater self-awareness. Clients often remember and recommend how an advisor made them feel more than the technical work performed. Solving emotional concerns creates stories clients naturally share with others. AI can recognize language patterns and respond empathetically, but it doesn’t genuinely experience human emotion. James argues that authentic empathy remains one of an advisor’s greatest competitive advantages. Rather than viewing AI solely as a competitor, advisors should use it to improve efficiency while investing more time in conversations, judgment, and relationships that technology cannot fully replace. Stop viewing emotional intelligence as a soft skill. Treat it as a business skill that directly influences growth, leadership, client loyalty, and long-term differentiation. Related Resources Why AI Matters Now: Filling the Estate Planning Gap with Wealth.com The Paradox of Choice Traps Successful Advisors Freedom vs. Familiarity: Is It Worth Disrupting Comfort for Something That Might Be Better? Guest Bio James Woodfall, founder of Raise Your EI, is a former financial planner who now advises financial services and firms on how they can leverage emotional intelligence (EI) to improve individual and organizational performance. He is the co-author, with Cliff Lansley, of “The Heart of Finance,” which teaches finance professionals to develop the emotional intelligence needed to build effective and profitable client relationships. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Emotional Intelligence: The “Untouchable” Differentiator in an AI World A conversation with Mindy Diamond and James Woodfall, Communication and Behavior Specialist at Raise Your EI.      Mindy Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Emotional Intelligence: The “Untouchable” Differentiator in an AI World. It’s a conversation with James Woodfall, Communication and Behavior Specialist from Raise Your EI. I’m Mindy Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our Annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. For years, advisors have competed on expertise, the ability to solve problems, deliver answers, and provide guidance clients couldn’t easily find on their own. But today, those answers are becoming easier to access via artificial intelligence and tools like ChatGPT, Claude, and Perplexity. AI can generate planning ideas, summarize complex topics, and answer questions in seconds. As the technology continues to improve, it raises an important question. If information becomes increasingly commoditized, what will clients continue to value most? My guest today, James Woodfall, is the Founder of the training firm, Raise Your EI, and a former wealth management business owner. James now helps advisors, leaders, and organizations strengthen the communication and behavioral skills that drive trust, influence, and performance. Skills rooted in emotional intelligence or EI, something that AI cannot authentically replicate. What’s interesting about James’s perspective is that he doesn’t view emotional intelligence as a soft skill. He views it as a business skill, one that impacts how advisors build rapport, earn referrals, lead teams, deepen client relationships, and ultimately differentiate themselves in an increasingly competitive marketplace that includes human and machine-driven advice. Our conversation explores why rapport is the foundation of trust, how emotional intelligence can be developed like any other professional skill, and why advisors who learn to create authentic human connection may be best positioned to thrive alongside AI, not compete against it. Or as James puts it, remain untouchable in the face of a changing world. Because while technology may continue to reshape how advice is delivered, the experience of being understood, trusted, and guided by another human being remains remarkably difficult to replicate. So, let’s get to it. James, thank you for joining me today, especially coming all the way from the UK. I’m grateful. James Woodfall: Thanks for having me on. Mindy Diamond: So, let’s start at the beginning. You’re a different kind of guest for us, and a topic that is near and dear to my heart because I’m always all about emotional intelligence and EQ, but it’s a topic that sometimes can feel a little squishy to some folks. So, tell us a little bit about your background and really how you got into the world of wealth management. James Woodfall: I got into wealth management probably was by accident while I was, I think about 19 years old. I got a job at a bank because I was living with different jobs and it was the first company that would take me. So I ended up working in a bank as a cashier in a branch. And then after a series of different career moves, I ended up running my own wealth management firm for about nine years, which I sold about three and a half years ago. Around the time that I was selling it, I did my first master’s degree in communication and behavior analysis, and that’s when I started taking a bit of a deep dive into understanding emotional intelligence and behavior and communication. But really, I started that journey before I sold my wealth management company, and really the goal was, how can I become a better financial advisor to my clients by having a better understanding of their psychology behavior around money so that I could communicate with them more effectively, help them build their plans? So I had a bit of a… like a lot of people I speak to in wealth management, they fell into it. Mindy Diamond: So, a lot to unpack there and I’m fascinated by your story. Tell us a little bit about how you began to use or leverage emotional intelligence. You say you got into it or were fascinated by it because it was a way of helping your clients. So, talk to us a little bit about that. How did you begin to see the impact long before you started this business? James Woodfall: So going back a couple of steps to that. When I started the business, it was very transactional. You’d sit down with the client, you find out about what sort of assets they have, what type of plans they have already, and you look for gaps where you can optimize things, or there was a product which they need which you didn’t have. But I moved away from that type of service to a financial planning led service. So, where actually before we get talking about, well, how do we structure your world? We spend a lot of time building a plan in cashflow modeling software. So the one that I used was over at a company called Voyant, and effectively I build a cashflow plan for the clients, which would map out based on assumptions of what age they would reach financial independence. And then that then would then move on to, how to we optimize your holdings? Now what occurred to me pretty quickly in offering that service is that the outputs from that type of exercise are only as good as the inputs. So you’re really relying on the client to be able to come up with the answers to the questions that you ask them to make the financial plan work. And in my experience, quite a lot of the time you sit down with these people and you ask them, “Imagine you’re retired, what does an ideal week look like for you?” So, what I realized is actually I was asking clients a lot of questions which no one had ever asked them before, such as, “If you go retire, imagine you’re retired tomorrow, what does your idea week look like?” Very rarely do we get asked that day-to-day, especially not from friends, family members, certainly. So I went off and actually did a diploma in coaching because I thought initially I want to become better at actually getting people to think about the future and think about plans. And in doing that, I ended up wanting to take a bit of a deeper dive into understanding behavior at a higher level. So that led me on to getting my masters. Impacts on clients though is that I became, and me as well, is that I became a far better listener first. So I listened first, I stopped making so many assumptions as I found I had about people. And really, I think that changed the dynamic in terms of me constant, I suppose, dictating to people about what they should be doing. So of course that’s what a good advisor does, isn’t it, is advice. You switch around into actually making sure you’ve got a deep understanding of people’s hopes, fears, goals, dreams, and then ultimately, you can help them better in terms of optimizing their financial plans and wealth. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. 100% of what you just said speaks to me in a big way, because that is 100% our philosophy. Most recruiters, I don’t mean it disparagingly, but most recruiters in general are pretty transactional. They see a hammer, they see a nail. So, a recruiter sees a financial advisor and he’s a means to an end to making a deal to a transaction. And our whole approach from day one was never about seeing you, financial advisor, as a transaction, but rather first and foremost, wanting to understand what’s important to you. And we get told all the time that we were asking questions that nobody ever asked them before. And I want to unpack it more, because I love what you’re saying. The goal as far as I see it is not just to ask a bunch of questions nobody asked before, but it’s to ask questions as a means to an end, to start out by asking questions that make somebody comfortable that tell them that you care about them. Then it’s about asking questions that they’ve never been asked before because the answers to a question like, “How do you see yourself behaving in retirement,” has everything to do with how much money they’ll need to retire. So, one informs the other. In our world asking somebody, “What are the things that spark you and what are the things that really don’t? And what will you do with this information?” And all those sorts of questions are questions many people had never been asked before, especially if somebody was looking at them as a transaction. And yet, it’s what deepens relationships, it’s what creates trust, and it’s what allows you to identify me as a recruiter, identify the best solution or the best opportunity for someone. So, do you agree with that? Is there anything that I’m off about? James Woodfall: No, that’s exactly the point. I think I’m asking better questions as a wealth manager talking to your client. Because ultimately this is, I suppose, one of the things which comes from understanding emotional intelligence, is that for most of us, we make decisions in motion first and then we justify with logic and reasoning, which is basically back to from. If I was to start with logical reasoning and then expect people to make a buying decision. And so a lot of the time, especially with things like retirement savings, for example, because it’s in the future, it’s over there, especially if it’s 10, 20 years away, people think, “Well, why will I give up so much money a month now for something which is so far in the future that I can’t comprehend it yet?” But if you start reigning the questions in a way which gets to kind of the… Really what you want to uncover is, if you wake up at 3:00 in the morning and you can’t get back to sleep, what’s on your mind? Because if you can uncover that emotion that fits all that kind of pain or problem, then you deal with emotion first and logic second. Mindy Diamond: And it tells you what you need to solve for, right? James Woodfall: Exactly, yeah. Mindy Diamond: If what keeps me up is I’m worried I’m going to outlive my money, and you know that’s your true north in terms of how you begin to tackle that they’re thinking about the future, they want you to focus on the long term. Right? Is that what you get from that? What’s the typical answer you get to that question, that one in particular? James Woodfall: For retirement planning, it’s usually clusters around. “Well, I’m not sure I’m making the right decision. There’s lots of options that are complicated. But really, actually, am I going to have enough money? Am I going to run out?” Because it’s the big question, isn’t it? How long are you going to live and how much are you going to need? Mindy Diamond: Right. As I was preparing for this interview, I think I know the answer because I’m a person that lives in this world that believes fully in, I don’t have a degree in behavioral finance but I’m big on emotional intelligence, connecting, developing trust, and that I don’t have any right to sell anybody anything or suggest anything unless I’ve connected on an interpersonal level. But I don’t know that everybody believes that. So help us, our listeners to understand, why does this matter to financial advisors? So, I’m going to give you two examples. I’m a younger advisor that has, say, five to 10 years in the business, say $100 million or 100 million pounds under management and is looking to really build a business. How and why does the concept of emotional intelligence, of EI, matter to me? And then I’m going to ask you the same question again with respect to someone who manages a billion dollars or a billion pounds. How and why does it matter? James Woodfall: Yeah. I think probably a starting point is, let’s just clear up I suppose in definitions so that we understand what we’re talking about when we say emotional intelligence, it’s an EQ. Because I suppose let’s think about, let’s call EQ the measurement, and emotional intelligence is the concept. So the definition of emotional intelligence is it’s an ability, and it’s this ability to understand and influence emotions in ourselves and others. So within ourselves, can we perceive and understand our own emotions? What turns them on? What triggers them? Can we do something about that? Can we recognize it, manage it in the right context, or either initiate our emotions in the right context? And can we do that when we’re talking to other people? So, are we good at perceiving people’s emotions within different contexts, and are we good at influencing and utilizing that information to help us communicate more effectively? So, these are skills which requires regard within those two roles to make you effective. And so, one of the things that we’ve learned from probably 30 years of people studying emotion intelligence is that if emotion is involved within the job role, emotional intelligence correlates with job performance and has a meaningful impact on the difference between an average and a big performer. So regardless of whether it’s one of the two scenarios that you’ve said, performance improvements are always on the table. But one of the things which tends to happen as you move from, say, up in terms of the money that you’re managing is the stakes get higher. So quite often, you actually need a much far higher degree of self-management, a higher degree of self-awareness, a higher degree of ability to perceive emotions in others, and to be able to communicate with influence. Because quite often as you are dealing with clients who are more affluent, there’s a correlation between actually the skills that your clients have and the skills that they expect you to have as an advisor. So the higher you go up that sort of ladder in terms of value, the more effective you need to be. So that’s where that EQ measurement. If you had to sit down and do an EQ assessment, for example, you need to be scoring way above average the higher up you go. Mindy Diamond: How will somebody begin to notice that developing the emotional intelligence muscle, developing the quantity of EQ, how will that begin to show up and impact their business? James Woodfall: There’s a couple of ways, and I think it really does show up in self-awareness and self-management and awareness and understanding of others. So one of the things which will show up in terms of that awareness and understanding of others is, can you build trusted relationships quickly? So like those skills that we were talking about before about asking better questions and listening, especially the first time you meet a new prospective client, if you can really turn your ears on and get very, very curious about the person that you’re talking to, rapport building is one of the foundational things for trust building. And really, if you get rapport building right, one of the goals should be to find common ground early, because the minute that you can build a connection with people and you start uncovering things that you’ve got in common, it starts signaling to people that actually you’re someone who is like them, on their side, and that they’re someone that you can trust. Now people who get this right, they tend to close more clients and they tend to gain more referrals or recommendations to other clients. And when I used to run my business, referrals was the largest source of new clients. Every single year, all the other different marketing streams, they didn’t produce anything near referrals. And I think back to that, if you look back to the kind of retirement example, if you can really get an answer to that question of, you wake up at 3:00 AM, what’s on your mind, what’s up when you’re getting back to sleep? If you can uncover that and solve that, for a client, it’s far easier to articulate that to a friend than it is for them to explain the technicalities of what you did with their retirement savings. But it’s easier to articulate, “You should absolutely go and see James. We were worried about whether we’re saving enough, he solved that, it’s brilliant, you need to go and see him.” That’s what I mean, is that they’re able to articulate the emotional outcome. Mindy Diamond: Even though what we’re talking about here is someone making the case that strengthening one’s emotional intelligence will make you a better advisor, easier to say that, sounds logical. But you’re connecting it to, you’re saying that someone who actually gets this right, gets it better, is going to create more of an instant rapport rooted in trust, and likely grow their business because it makes them more referable. And those are things that certainly every young advisor wants, but every advisor wants. So, let me switch the tables a second. I get why a young advisor with 100 million wants to get to a billion, why this is really important. They want to do everything they can to really make themselves the most referable. But let’s take the advisor that’s on the back nine that has been doing this 30 years, manages a billion and a half of pounds, dollars in assets under management, is growing by referrals and it’s an organic referral stream. It’s a business that feeds itself. So, while everybody always needs to be in business development mode, they feel like they’ve cracked the code, they’ve got it covered. How and why does this concept impact a senior advisor, someone with a much bigger, more robust book of business? James Woodfall: Yeah, it’s interesting. So if we take a bit of a step back and look at a bit about what some of the research says about the impacts of emotional intelligence, there have been some studies done within financial services about the impact of your training on business outcomes. So there was a study done probably around about between 2000 and 2004 with Ameriprise, and they brought their agents through a year-long emotional intelligence development program. And it was interesting, they measured at the beginning of the program EQ, what someone’s EQ score was, but they measured things like health, anger, trade anger. So, how often were people experiencing anger, stress, and burnout. So they’re measuring all sorts of things other than EQ just to see what the impact of EQ training was. Now EQ scores went up, sales went up, I think on average of about 24% across four cohorts. But things like stress, burnout, health outcomes, perceived health outcomes, people are asked to rate, how would you rate your health, that went up. Experience of anger went down because people become better at managing it. So as you look at the kind of example that you described, I would say that as someone who’s in that stage of the career where they may not have the capacity to take on more clients. So just think, well, actually, I don’t want an uplift of 20%, 24% in sales because I might not process that. But one of the things which I suppose the EI research shows actually is that it impacts your quality of life. And there is finding which is quite common in research, is that actually EI scores correlate with age. So as we go through life and we have sort of ups, downs, highs, lows, and we learn from those. We learn from our emotional experience, and that’s hypothesis, is it feeds into our EQ score. So you’ve probably got people at that later stage of their career who actually probably have had experience which has developed their emotional intelligence. They’ve got mature standing, which means that they might not necessarily need to go out and find new clients. They’ve got experience, which has helped them develop client relationships, but they might want to take a step back at quality of life. If they’re experiencing stress, burnout, pressure, EQ can help absolutely with all of those. The other thing which is quite common as well is that if they’re playing any sort of leadership part within that business now, let’s say if they’re a business owner, EQ absolutely is key for leadership performance. So making sure that you’re building a team of people around you, you can help you develop the business. And actually, EI and leadership’s one of the biggest areas where research has been focused. But I think one of the other things I’ve got to say is that we’ve all got blind spots. It doesn’t matter where we are in life, we’ve all got things that I suppose that we could be better at. And actually shining a lens on those and improving our self-awareness is something that you can develop at all stages. Mindy Diamond: A lot of people in our industry, whether it be a recruiter or an advisor themselves, believe that efficiency or being most effective and efficient is the true north. And that to ask what may fee like unnecessary or ancillary questions that don’t directly get to help me to figure out what your asset allocation is so that I can grow your portfolio, may feel ancillary. And so, is that one of the most common objections you get when somebody, say, comes to you and they’re thinking about retaining you and they’re wondering what the benefit is? James Woodfall: Well, I think the people in firms I tend to talk to, there’s a couple of common things that are coming to mind now. One is pressure around fees. So, how can I make sure I’m articulating my value in a time where clients are more informed, they can go on AI and they come to meetings prepared with answers, and they’re challenging back around the value that advisors can provide. So getting back, I suppose, and the answer is funnily enough, is actually if you’ve designed your service around a proposition which makes yourself easy to replace by someone else who can do it for the same or cheaper price with a promise of better performance, or even in the years coming, a robo-advisor, it’s going to be challenging to retain and grow clients. But I’m not particularly worried about AI. The other types of firms that come to me is to say, “Look, we’ve identified actually that we need to think differently about our business model, what we do and who we serve, because it’s going to be easier than it’s ever been for clients to come up to do some of these things themselves.” But absolutely what is untouchable, I think, is this ability to create a human connection, to sit down and discuss a range of different options. “Do I do X, do I do Y? What are the trade-offs if I choose that over that?” And to uncover those things which, as I said, really keep people up at night and solve for them. I think it’s going to be quite hard to replicate that digitally. Mindy Diamond: So I want to get to a end that you hit the nail on the head, and I want to delve deeper into it. Whatever the advisor is looking for, they may not worry about pressure around fees, they may not be kept up at night. They have a practice or a business that’s worked well all these years and is growing organically and it’s more than good enough. But anybody who isn’t concerned about the potential impact of AI on their business and whether they’re a financial advisor or recruiter or anybody else, is living under a rock. So, the goal for everyone should be to make yourself untouchable. And you hit it on the head, it’s the ability to create human connection. So, I want to ask you something. It occurs to me, you talk a lot about learning to ask the right questions. In some cases, the questions that a client never been asked before makes sense to me. But I think the real skill, I mean, I imagine anybody can teach you a list of questions to ask. The real skill comes in is knowing what to do with that information. So, let’s assume that someone says an advisor says you ask that smart question, “What keeps you up at night? What do you think about at 3:00 AM?” Pressure around fees. I find people, clients asking me, prospects asking me all the time what sort of value I can add, whether it be in the land of AI or competitively, whatever it is, pressure around fees. What do you do? So you’ve asked the smart question, but what do you teach? What do you do with that information? James Woodfall: It’s a mindset, I think, because having just say a list of questions I don’t think is really helpful to any advisor when you’re training them. And yet I find I do get people who, okay, say, “Well, look, what questions should we ask? Have you got a list of questions that you would ask?” I hold back giving those out because I think that, well, that’s what I would say. It’s not necessarily going to land the same way if you say it. The mindset I’m trying to teach advisor is to adopt a curious mindset. So not asking questions for question’s sake, but if I’m talking to someone, what I want to do is I want to understand, how are you thinking? How do you see the problem? What assumptions are you making? What things do you believe which maybe don’t line up with how things are in reality, or goals, objectives, or whatever it is. So I’m trying to understand how you think, and that requires not asking questions off a list of great questions to ask, comes off of understanding the format for that, is utilizing the open questions to gather information, to check assumptions that might sit behind them, because actually understanding those assumptions is really, really useful. And to then summarize and play back to someone that you’re talking to so that you can demonstrate that you’re listening and you deeply understand them, and being able to summarize and be able to succinctly put their words into a, “Well, what do we do next about this?” Mindy Diamond: Yeah, and, why does it matter? I love that because what I always say is it’s art, not science. AI could give you a list of, if I put in the topic of emotional intelligence and give me a list of 10 smart questions to ask relative to X. One of the questions I would ask someone from an emotional perspective that demonstrates I have strong emotional perspective relative to pressure around fees, AI could spit out the questions. But I think you’re 100% right. The real key is being a good listener and meeting someone where they are. And it’s not about a prescribed or canned list of questions that demonstrate you have strong emotional intelligence. It’s much more about asking the right next question, saying the right thing, the validating statement afterwards. And not as a means to an end, not as a means to a transaction, not as just a way of checking the box, I have emotional intelligence, but really because demonstrating that you deeply care. And I like what you said, the notion of a changed mindset. Do people get that right away? I guess what I’m asking is, financial advisors, while smart ones who are looking to make themselves untouchable by AI will get that concept. They’re looking to differentiate themselves and they’re looking to hone the skills that AI can’t bring to the table. But at the same time, financial advisors are number oriented and goal oriented. And so, how long does it typically take to begin to see, or how do you paint the picture about getting from here to there, connecting the dots between strengthening changing your mindset, strengthening your emotional intelligence, and seeing more results? James Woodfall: Well, look, it’s about behavior change, isn’t it? Like any kind of behavior change, there has to be a few things at play. One is that you have to have a good understanding of where you are right now, what things that you are good at, but what things you need to work on. And then effectively the things you need to work on, you need a plan of how you’re going to work on them. So I think commonly how you develop these kind of relational skills is that you need to be able to get close to, what does the goal look like? Where am I headed? If I get this right, what’s it going to look like? And then you need to have a plan to get from A to B. And actually part of that plan has to be built around good feedback. And I was quite lucky where during my career, I worked for two large banks before I started my firm. And I had really, really good training from managers that I worked with, almost on a monthly basis would come and sit in my client meetings and then feedback to me about what I could have done better. And so actually, if you’re going to really commit to developing, I suppose relational skills and becoming more emotionally intelligent, you need help from someone within your firm or externally to come in and actually observe you by trying out new things and giving you feedback. Now of course, you could do some of that yourself if you’re doing a virtual meeting, you could hit record, play it back, be your own analyst. But quite often we can’t see that ourselves, but if you’ve got say a third party, they can watch you in action. Quite quickly they can hone in and say, “Well, actually, you could have asked a different question here, or actually if you’d phrased that like this, you might’ve got a bit more information, or the client closed down when you ask that question.” So actually then, you start to create that behavior change. So feedback I think is one thing, but actually aligning it with really, values, I think. So, one of the things that I suppose is quite important for behavior change is that we are motivated to do things where we strongly believe it’s the right thing to do. So, I think which is why it can be quite difficult for a firm to bring in with a team of advisors and say, “Well, we’re going to roll out emotional intelligence training,” because you’ll get some of us go, “This is brilliant.” Mindy Diamond: Eye roll. I would imagine eye roll is the… It can be a lot of the response, right? James Woodfall: You get a lot of resistance, because some people see it as a criticism of just saying, “Well, actually I’m good at that. I don’t need training in that, thank you very much.” Mindy Diamond: And because if efficiency in getting to a goal is the true north, I mean, I think the mindset shift you’re talking about is going from believing that getting to the goal by just asking the right numbers and dealing in data, changing that from it’s about building a relationship, which ultimately will impact the amount you manage and how you grow and how you connect and all of that stuff. But for people that are goal-oriented, linear in their thinking, I imagine this can be not just felt as a criticism but hard to embrace. James Woodfall: Oh, yeah, no. I think we view the brain as kind of a black box. I do get people I speak to, they go, “Mental health isn’t real. And all of this is psychobabble,” but from the people that I’ve had feedback from, and this is even for people I haven’t trained. I wrote a book about 18 months ago about the topic which talks about emotion intelligence within the 5X context. I’ve had people contact me on LinkedIn and say, “Look, I read your book. I’ve been following your content for a while. I’ve put some of the ideas to work, and I’m now getting my manager and their manager contact me and saying, ‘What are you doing differently?’” Because all of a sudden they’re opening up conversations with clients that they couldn’t before, doing business with clients where they couldn’t before. And all it is that this kind of focus on the client, the relationship, building that connection, and all of a sudden you start seeing that convert into more sales opportunities. Mindy Diamond: Yes and more yes, because that’s always been our philosophy, my philosophy from starting the business and our philosophy, and I couldn’t agree with you more. You articulated it probably as did, I got to it instinctively. You have research behind it, etc. By the way, for our listeners, we will link your book in the notes for this episode if anybody’s interested in buying it. But you hit the nail on the head, so, or you took the words out of my mouth in terms of next question. Who are your clients? Are they individual advisors? Are they independent RIAs? Are they Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch? And what kind of work do you do for them? James Woodfall: So, I do, there’s probably two parts to my business. One is the consulting training part, which is going into firms, typically firms that were the owner managed typically, where the owner either is still advising or has a big impact on other behaviors of the advice team that’s underneath them. And really, I work on a consultancy basis. So rather than going and just provide EI training, what I do is effectively start with understanding the business. So exactly as I’ve been talking to you about, the process I used to follow as an advisor, it’s the same process I follow when I’m working with practices, is I want to find out what’s going well in the business. Where are the blockers, what’s not going so well? And I’m a social science researcher. So I’d want to spend some time in the business actually doing a bit of a deep dive and maybe speaking to the team while the owner’s not in the room and finding out a bit about how they’re seeing things. Because ultimately, what that will do is it allows me to look at thematically extracting what types of training interventions might move the needle within the business. And then I put that onto a report for businesses and say, “Look, this is what I think we should be doing.” Some of that might be me working one-to-one, doing that coaching, observing, training with particular people in the business who have been highlighted as requiring development, or it might be group training, might be taking the whole teams through a training program. And then following up, helping build those development plans, and then being there supporting with the one-to-ones as they bed in that behavior change. So, that’s one part of the business. The other part of the business is working for the larger firms. I’ve done a bit of work for Fidelity this year and last year, and they’re looking to hire me as an authority expert on the topic to put together training programs that go out to the advisors that they work with. So, there’s the two aspects, like an external speaker trainer that’s brought in by some of the larger companies. And then the other one is a bit more hands-on, applying not only the science but my experience of having been there and run a business. Mindy Diamond: Right. So are the big firms like… So you mentioned Fidelity, are the wirehouses, Merrill, Morgan, UBS, Wells Fargo, are they embracing this? Are the big banks embracing it, or is this largely in the RIA space right now? James Woodfall: In the UK, there’s been a huge kind of interest in emotional intelligence, behavioral finance, relational skills. And actually, a lot of the kind of people who require influential in the UK are actually based in the US. And so, I think there’s a good bit of crossover. We’ve got good people who are specialists in looking at the retirement piece from a retirement transition about, how do you support people through what is a profound psychological transition? So, I think the RIAs are really interested in it as a topic. Then we’ve got the larger institutions are interested in it either as the RIAs are clients of theirs and they want to be seen to providing thought leadership to the RIAs and helping them develop these skills. But also, we’ve got some quite large companies in the UK now here, like the banks, for example, the banks or the whole exited the advice market in around about 2012, 2013, and then this year they’re starting to come back. So they’ve had 15 years nearly out of the market and they’re coming back because they’re just wanting an opportunity for face-to-face advice. So, I think actually it’s a hot topic now and I think all segments of the market are looking at, how do they develop non-technical skills to help them succeed in the future? Mindy Diamond: Can someone who was not born with strong EQ, can they learn this? James Woodfall: Absolutely. One of the interesting things about EQ is it’s not like IQ, for example. IQ is our a sort of cognitive ability. There was some good research that was done probably about, I think 2016, which looked at, do you remember all this sort of brain training apps like, if you do Sudoku, do you get smarter? You get better at Sudoku, but it doesn’t translate into performance on another. You don’t get better at crosswords from doing Sudoku, for example. So, IQs are pretty much fixed and there’s not a lot we can do about that. But EQ has been shown to be a trainable ability. So regardless of where you are now, if you understand your strengths and weaknesses and put a plan together for improvement, everyone has the ability to improve their EQ. And it’s not like personality, for example, where it’s quite hard to shift the dial. Let’s say if you’re quite strongly introverted and you find social situations difficult, if you just took that approach and said, “Well, look, can we make you extremely extroverted?” The answer would be, well, probably not. But EQ absolutely helps that person because noticing that you feel uncomfortable in, say, a networking situation if you have to do that professionally, having the tools in the bag to manage that feeling and throw yourself into the experience, that’s EQ in action. So, it doesn’t matter your baseline of where you are, EQ can have a big impact on your ability to perform across a range of different contexts, home, work, with friends. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Let’s talk about your comment that EQ or strong emotional intelligence is what can make an advisor untouchable by AI. And I assume the premise being that, I can’t replace a human relationship. It may be able to come up with the questions, but at least for today it lacks the ability to know what to do with that information and to create the human connection. Talk to me more about that. How and why is that? I mean, is that part of why people are coming to you, because they’re worried about AI encroaching on their business? James Woodfall: Where we are at the moment is actually AI… Let’s look at healthcare for a second. Chatbots in healthcare have actually been outperforming humans in some respects. So there’s a type of therapy called cognitive behavior therapy, that’s been run with AI agents and patients. And as researchers to show that actually, disclosure has increased when patients are speaking to a chatbot because cognitive behavior therapy is like it’s guided, is a method, it’s a methodology to it. But disclosure increases and this theory behind that is is that people open up more when they don’t feel like they’re being judged by another person. So that’s interesting, because that saying to us, “Well, actually, people are trusting AI agents with very, very personal information, and people are already getting that feeling of empathy with AI agents.” Because if you tell an AI agent something deeply personal and it says, “That must have been really difficult for you,” for example. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, it does that well. Wonderful feedback about how great you are or what a smart question you just asked. James Woodfall: Yeah, but it’s synthetic, it’s not real empathy, it’s synthetic empathy. Whilst we might feel actually we get that feeling that we’re being understood, it’s not real. And I think the advisor’s edge is, look, I think where we might end up with this is that if you take a step back and you do this kind of exercise of what’s my ideal client, the ideal client is, I think, now is someone who is still time poor. So yes, an AI agent might be able to interview you, build a financial plan, but do you really want to spend the time doing that or do you have any inclination to do that? No. Well, that’s a perfect client who would hire an advisor. They value human relationships. Obviously when we do get AI entering the advisor market, it’s going to be at a lower price point. So actually, we’re now talking about a difference between experience. So the experience of being with an advisor comes at a premium. So that experience is going to be what people are going to pay additional value for. So, it’s the experience of dealing with a human. It’s the experience of dealing with a human who can talk them through complex information and options, help them understand their thinking and apply judgment, connect with those emotional things. But there’s a whole range of information that we get when we’re talking face-to-face, which AI doesn’t have access to. So back to that retirement example, if we say, “Well, man, I’ve modeled your plan. If we do X, Y, and Z, you’re not going to run out of money when you retire. You’re going to be okay.” And then the person, usually what they do is they sigh with relief, which is actually the emotion of joy, relief is actually happiness. So that sigh of relief and the softening of muscle tension in the body that you see when you’re face-to-face with another person, AI can’t, doesn’t get that data. Mindy Diamond: And how powerful is that? So, why does that matter? If I say, “I have X, I need Y. I have X number of years until I retire. Will I have enough money to retire the way I want to?” AI can spit that answer out faster than any financial advisor and come back hopefully saying, “Yes,” they’ll know that I will experience relief and joy because I’ll write back saying, “Great news.” It’ll say, “Yes, that is fabulous news.” It’ll tell me why I’m relieved and all that sort of stuff. So, why does that matter? James Woodfall: I think fundamentally, it comes back to trust. For those people who can get that quick answer, they’ll go, “Yeah, that’s great.” But there’ll be some people who go, “Yeah, fine. I’ll take that answer at face value.” There’ll be other people who go, “Well, what if you made a mistake?” Quite interesting that actually, people will get the same answer from a human advisor and they’ll trust it more. And I think one of those things is because we’re wired for connection, so when empathy develops, it’s quite interesting. Something which you see in young children, for example, is when we develop at the very early stage, probably about three or four years old, before children have learned to self-regulate their emotions, you see emotional contagion in groups of children happen quite rapidly. You get one child who say gets a toy taken away from them and starts crying, and then all the other children at the same age in the nursery start crying. Now, none of those other ones are crying because they’re sad. They’re crying because we have these things called mirror neurons, which means we pick up and mirror the emotional state of people around us. So, you actually get an experience of shared feeling and especially if you’ve got strong rapport, strong relationship, you actually share emotions of the people around you. Now, of course, as we grow out of that developmental stage, we learn this ability to understand that actually what we’re feeling isn’t happening to us, it’s happening to someone else. But have you ever been around… My favorite example for this is, if my wife has had a bad day at work because she comes home and starts slamming the door and banging cupboards, why I start to feel anger, because it’s rubbing off, it’s in the room. So, it’s this shared understanding that I think is where the value is. And so absolutely the answer might be faster and quicker, but for some clients they value that experience of having that answer delivered by someone who understands them. Mindy Diamond: And I think, so the point is that there will be clients or prospects that will value the efficiency of AI, that don’t necessarily need the face-to-face, that don’t necessarily… They just want the answer. They want the answers to the test, they don’t care how you got there. But what you’re talking about is finding the clients that really value the human connection. And if that’s what in fact is going to make advisors untouchable, then they need to make sure that they really strengthen this skill. James Woodfall: It’s not just the answer, but it’s the whole experience that’s wrapped around that. So actually last year, and my wife took me to a restaurant and we had a lovely, lovely meal. And on the menu there was this cup of coffee and the beans were like one of the rarest beans in the world. They’re the ones that get eaten by this little animal with the jungle in it, poops them out, and then the beans get roasted. But it was about 40 pounds for this cup of coffee and I thought, well, I’m going to have that. But that’s the experience, isn’t it? I could get a cup of coffee at McDonald’s, but actually the experience of this, something which is rare, exclusive, delivered in an amazing environment, that’s what you’re paying for. So, you’ve got to remember that actually if experience dictates a lot of what we value as well. So because if all of our decisions were made on price, Ferrari wouldn’t have a business because everyone would just be buying the cheapest car that does the job. You’re going to think advisors that are going to operating in this space, well, they need to think about the whole package, as in the experience that the plan that’s delivered, and the advice. Mindy Diamond: But it speaks to the notion of any advisor that isn’t thinking about AI’s impact on his business and how to reshape or rewire the business, even just rewiring the value proposition, retooling their value proposition, how they explain their value and what they do needs to change because they’re competing not only with the advisor that sits next to them or down the hall, but they’re competing with AI. How about as AI, as you see AI develop? So fast-forward five years, you and I are talking about where AI is today, but AI is, God knows where it’ll be five years from now. So, how do you foresee, do you still foresee the advisor being untouchable if they get this right, five or 10 years from now? James Woodfall: I don’t think it’s financial advice that’s unique with this, because I think it’s any profession where at the moment human judgment and understanding are valued. Healthcare, for example, same thing, doctors follow consultancy process. You’ve got this like tax, legal, a whole range of professions which are all grappling on the same problem. So I think in five years time, I think the answer is, is that we just don’t know what AI will look like. But certainly in the moment, if you track what Claude are doing with code work, and what Perplexity is doing with its skills and add-ons, a lot of it is actually at the moment geared up to freeing up the advisor’s time so that they can spend more time with clients. So, I think at the moment this sort of trend is looking like AI companies want to support advisors to be way more efficient so that they can deal with more clients. But in five years time, who knows? I think probably one of the biggest leaps that will happen is when AI is no longer working from, say, just a transcript. If it gets out to that kind of chat where you can actually interact with an AI agent like you and I are talking, I think that’s going to provide a different experience, because then you’re moving it from, as I said, that kind of structure where somebody is stuck there tapping away at keyboard, having a conversation with a chatbot, effectively, to actually having a conversation with an embodied agent with a face, gestures, a voice. That I think will start to change things a little bit. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Well, it will be an interesting future, for sure. This has been a fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed it, and thank you so much for sharing so graciously. Is there anything to wrap up that I didn’t ask you, that you would want an advisor to know about this concept or anything you’re thinking about? James Woodfall: I think we’ve taken a broad sweep and then a deep dive into certain areas. I think really probably have to get started. I think probably one of the… I mean, you mentioned obviously I’ve got a book that you share the links to, which is fantastic. Audiobook is available to that as well on Spotify or wherever audiobooks are listed. I think there’s a lot of good advice in that about how to get started. So, I think for people who are looking at covering that next step of, what do we do, it’d be, yeah, pick up a book and have a bit of a deep dive. If you want to skip the book and come straight to having a conversation with me, then I write a weekly email, which goes out once a week, which is just one topic. So very much like we’ve been talking today, I share ideas on that once a week, or on LinkedIn, I’m around on LinkedIn as well. Mindy Diamond: Good. Well, we will link all of it so everyone knows how to find you. Thank you again for being so gracious. Love the topic, love the work that you’re doing, love that there’s a need for it, and can’t wait to see where you go from here. James Woodfall: Brilliant. No, I enjoyed it. Thank you. Mindy Diamond: Thank you. As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously, and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Emotional Intelligence: The “Untouchable” Differentiator in an AI World A conversation with Mindy Diamond and James Woodfall, Communication and Behavior Specialist at Raise Your EI.      Mindy Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Emotional Intelligence: The “Untouchable” Differentiator in an AI World. It’s a conversation with James Woodfall, Communication and Behavior Specialist from Raise Your EI. I’m Mindy Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our Annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. For years, advisors have competed on expertise, the ability to solve problems, deliver answers, and provide guidance clients couldn’t easily find on their own. But today, those answers are becoming easier to access via artificial intelligence and tools like ChatGPT, Claude, and Perplexity. AI can generate planning ideas, summarize complex topics, and answer questions in seconds. As the technology continues to improve, it raises an important question. If information becomes increasingly commoditized, what will clients continue to value most? My guest today, James Woodfall, is the Founder of the training firm, Raise Your EI, and a former wealth management business owner. James now helps advisors, leaders, and organizations strengthen the communication and behavioral skills that drive trust, influence, and performance. Skills rooted in emotional intelligence or EI, something that AI cannot authentically replicate. What’s interesting about James’s perspective is that he doesn’t view emotional intelligence as a soft skill. He views it as a business skill, one that impacts how advisors build rapport, earn referrals, lead teams, deepen client relationships, and ultimately differentiate themselves in an increasingly competitive marketplace that includes human and machine-driven advice. Our conversation explores why rapport is the foundation of trust, how emotional intelligence can be developed like any other professional skill, and why advisors who learn to create authentic human connection may be best positioned to thrive alongside AI, not compete against it. Or as James puts it, remain untouchable in the face of a changing world. Because while technology may continue to reshape how advice is delivered, the experience of being understood, trusted, and guided by another human being remains remarkably difficult to replicate. So, let’s get to it. James, thank you for joining me today, especially coming all the way from the UK. I’m grateful. James Woodfall: Thanks for having me on. Mindy Diamond: So, let’s start at the beginning. You’re a different kind of guest for us, and a topic that is near and dear to my heart because I’m always all about emotional intelligence and EQ, but it’s a topic that sometimes can feel a little squishy to some folks. So, tell us a little bit about your background and really how you got into the world of wealth management. James Woodfall: I got into wealth management probably was by accident while I was, I think about 19 years old. I got a job at a bank because I was living with different jobs and it was the first company that would take me. So I ended up working in a bank as a cashier in a branch. And then after a series of different career moves, I ended up running my own wealth management firm for about nine years, which I sold about three and a half years ago. Around the time that I was selling it, I did my first master’s degree in communication and behavior analysis, and that’s when I started taking a bit of a deep dive into understanding emotional intelligence and behavior and communication. But really, I started that journey before I sold my wealth management company, and really the goal was, how can I become a better financial advisor to my clients by having a better understanding of their psychology behavior around money so that I could communicate with them more effectively, help them build their plans? So I had a bit of a… like a lot of people I speak to in wealth management, they fell into it. Mindy Diamond: So, a lot to unpack there and I’m fascinated by your story. Tell us a little bit about how you began to use or leverage emotional intelligence. You say you got into it or were fascinated by it because it was a way of helping your clients. So, talk to us a little bit about that. How did you begin to see the impact long before you started this business? James Woodfall: So going back a couple of steps to that. When I started the business, it was very transactional. You’d sit down with the client, you find out about what sort of assets they have, what type of plans they have already, and you look for gaps where you can optimize things, or there was a product which they need which you didn’t have. But I moved away from that type of service to a financial planning led service. So, where actually before we get talking about, well, how do we structure your world? We spend a lot of time building a plan in cashflow modeling software. So the one that I used was over at a company called Voyant, and effectively I build a cashflow plan for the clients, which would map out based on assumptions of what age they would reach financial independence. And then that then would then move on to, how to we optimize your holdings? Now what occurred to me pretty quickly in offering that service is that the outputs from that type of exercise are only as good as the inputs. So you’re really relying on the client to be able to come up with the answers to the questions that you ask them to make the financial plan work. And in my experience, quite a lot of the time you sit down with these people and you ask them, “Imagine you’re retired, what does an ideal week look like for you?” So, what I realized is actually I was asking clients a lot of questions which no one had ever asked them before, such as, “If you go retire, imagine you’re retired tomorrow, what does your idea week look like?” Very rarely do we get asked that day-to-day, especially not from friends, family members, certainly. So I went off and actually did a diploma in coaching because I thought initially I want to become better at actually getting people to think about the future and think about plans. And in doing that, I ended up wanting to take a bit of a deeper dive into understanding behavior at a higher level. So that led me on to getting my masters. Impacts on clients though is that I became, and me as well, is that I became a far better listener first. So I listened first, I stopped making so many assumptions as I found I had about people. And really, I think that changed the dynamic in terms of me constant, I suppose, dictating to people about what they should be doing. So of course that’s what a good advisor does, isn’t it, is advice. You switch around into actually making sure you’ve got a deep understanding of people’s hopes, fears, goals, dreams, and then ultimately, you can help them better in terms of optimizing their financial plans and wealth. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. 100% of what you just said speaks to me in a big way, because that is 100% our philosophy. Most recruiters, I don’t mean it disparagingly, but most recruiters in general are pretty transactional. They see a hammer, they see a nail. So, a recruiter sees a financial advisor and he’s a means to an end to making a deal to a transaction. And our whole approach from day one was never about seeing you, financial advisor, as a transaction, but rather first and foremost, wanting to understand what’s important to you. And we get told all the time that we were asking questions that nobody ever asked them before. And I want to unpack it more, because I love what you’re saying. The goal as far as I see it is not just to ask a bunch of questions nobody asked before, but it’s to ask questions as a means to an end, to start out by asking questions that make somebody comfortable that tell them that you care about them. Then it’s about asking questions that they’ve never been asked before because the answers to a question like, “How do you see yourself behaving in retirement,” has everything to do with how much money they’ll need to retire. So, one informs the other. In our world asking somebody, “What are the things that spark you and what are the things that really don’t? And what will you do with this information?” And all those sorts of questions are questions many people had never been asked before, especially if somebody was looking at them as a transaction. And yet, it’s what deepens relationships, it’s what creates trust, and it’s what allows you to identify me as a recruiter, identify the best solution or the best opportunity for someone. So, do you agree with that? Is there anything that I’m off about? James Woodfall: No, that’s exactly the point. I think I’m asking better questions as a wealth manager talking to your client. Because ultimately this is, I suppose, one of the things which comes from understanding emotional intelligence, is that for most of us, we make decisions in motion first and then we justify with logic and reasoning, which is basically back to from. If I was to start with logical reasoning and then expect people to make a buying decision. And so a lot of the time, especially with things like retirement savings, for example, because it’s in the future, it’s over there, especially if it’s 10, 20 years away, people think, “Well, why will I give up so much money a month now for something which is so far in the future that I can’t comprehend it yet?” But if you start reigning the questions in a way which gets to kind of the… Really what you want to uncover is, if you wake up at 3:00 in the morning and you can’t get back to sleep, what’s on your mind? Because if you can uncover that emotion that fits all that kind of pain or problem, then you deal with emotion first and logic second. Mindy Diamond: And it tells you what you need to solve for, right? James Woodfall: Exactly, yeah. Mindy Diamond: If what keeps me up is I’m worried I’m going to outlive my money, and you know that’s your true north in terms of how you begin to tackle that they’re thinking about the future, they want you to focus on the long term. Right? Is that what you get from that? What’s the typical answer you get to that question, that one in particular? James Woodfall: For retirement planning, it’s usually clusters around. “Well, I’m not sure I’m making the right decision. There’s lots of options that are complicated. But really, actually, am I going to have enough money? Am I going to run out?” Because it’s the big question, isn’t it? How long are you going to live and how much are you going to need? Mindy Diamond: Right. As I was preparing for this interview, I think I know the answer because I’m a person that lives in this world that believes fully in, I don’t have a degree in behavioral finance but I’m big on emotional intelligence, connecting, developing trust, and that I don’t have any right to sell anybody anything or suggest anything unless I’ve connected on an interpersonal level. But I don’t know that everybody believes that. So help us, our listeners to understand, why does this matter to financial advisors? So, I’m going to give you two examples. I’m a younger advisor that has, say, five to 10 years in the business, say $100 million or 100 million pounds under management and is looking to really build a business. How and why does the concept of emotional intelligence, of EI, matter to me? And then I’m going to ask you the same question again with respect to someone who manages a billion dollars or a billion pounds. How and why does it matter? James Woodfall: Yeah. I think probably a starting point is, let’s just clear up I suppose in definitions so that we understand what we’re talking about when we say emotional intelligence, it’s an EQ. Because I suppose let’s think about, let’s call EQ the measurement, and emotional intelligence is the concept. So the definition of emotional intelligence is it’s an ability, and it’s this ability to understand and influence emotions in ourselves and others. So within ourselves, can we perceive and understand our own emotions? What turns them on? What triggers them? Can we do something about that? Can we recognize it, manage it in the right context, or either initiate our emotions in the right context? And can we do that when we’re talking to other people? So, are we good at perceiving people’s emotions within different contexts, and are we good at influencing and utilizing that information to help us communicate more effectively? So, these are skills which requires regard within those two roles to make you effective. And so, one of the things that we’ve learned from probably 30 years of people studying emotion intelligence is that if emotion is involved within the job role, emotional intelligence correlates with job performance and has a meaningful impact on the difference between an average and a big performer. So regardless of whether it’s one of the two scenarios that you’ve said, performance improvements are always on the table. But one of the things which tends to happen as you move from, say, up in terms of the money that you’re managing is the stakes get higher. So quite often, you actually need a much far higher degree of self-management, a higher degree of self-awareness, a higher degree of ability to perceive emotions in others, and to be able to communicate with influence. Because quite often as you are dealing with clients who are more affluent, there’s a correlation between actually the skills that your clients have and the skills that they expect you to have as an advisor. So the higher you go up that sort of ladder in terms of value, the more effective you need to be. So that’s where that EQ measurement. If you had to sit down and do an EQ assessment, for example, you need to be scoring way above average the higher up you go. Mindy Diamond: How will somebody begin to notice that developing the emotional intelligence muscle, developing the quantity of EQ, how will that begin to show up and impact their business? James Woodfall: There’s a couple of ways, and I think it really does show up in self-awareness and self-management and awareness and understanding of others. So one of the things which will show up in terms of that awareness and understanding of others is, can you build trusted relationships quickly? So like those skills that we were talking about before about asking better questions and listening, especially the first time you meet a new prospective client, if you can really turn your ears on and get very, very curious about the person that you’re talking to, rapport building is one of the foundational things for trust building. And really, if you get rapport building right, one of the goals should be to find common ground early, because the minute that you can build a connection with people and you start uncovering things that you’ve got in common, it starts signaling to people that actually you’re someone who is like them, on their side, and that they’re someone that you can trust. Now people who get this right, they tend to close more clients and they tend to gain more referrals or recommendations to other clients. And when I used to run my business, referrals was the largest source of new clients. Every single year, all the other different marketing streams, they didn’t produce anything near referrals. And I think back to that, if you look back to the kind of retirement example, if you can really get an answer to that question of, you wake up at 3:00 AM, what’s on your mind, what’s up when you’re getting back to sleep? If you can uncover that and solve that, for a client, it’s far easier to articulate that to a friend than it is for them to explain the technicalities of what you did with their retirement savings. But it’s easier to articulate, “You should absolutely go and see James. We were worried about whether we’re saving enough, he solved that, it’s brilliant, you need to go and see him.” That’s what I mean, is that they’re able to articulate the emotional outcome. Mindy Diamond: Even though what we’re talking about here is someone making the case that strengthening one’s emotional intelligence will make you a better advisor, easier to say that, sounds logical. But you’re connecting it to, you’re saying that someone who actually gets this right, gets it better, is going to create more of an instant rapport rooted in trust, and likely grow their business because it makes them more referable. And those are things that certainly every young advisor wants, but every advisor wants. So, let me switch the tables a second. I get why a young advisor with 100 million wants to get to a billion, why this is really important. They want to do everything they can to really make themselves the most referable. But let’s take the advisor that’s on the back nine that has been doing this 30 years, manages a billion and a half of pounds, dollars in assets under management, is growing by referrals and it’s an organic referral stream. It’s a business that feeds itself. So, while everybody always needs to be in business development mode, they feel like they’ve cracked the code, they’ve got it covered. How and why does this concept impact a senior advisor, someone with a much bigger, more robust book of business? James Woodfall: Yeah, it’s interesting. So if we take a bit of a step back and look at a bit about what some of the research says about the impacts of emotional intelligence, there have been some studies done within financial services about the impact of your training on business outcomes. So there was a study done probably around about between 2000 and 2004 with Ameriprise, and they brought their agents through a year-long emotional intelligence development program. And it was interesting, they measured at the beginning of the program EQ, what someone’s EQ score was, but they measured things like health, anger, trade anger. So, how often were people experiencing anger, stress, and burnout. So they’re measuring all sorts of things other than EQ just to see what the impact of EQ training was. Now EQ scores went up, sales went up, I think on average of about 24% across four cohorts. But things like stress, burnout, health outcomes, perceived health outcomes, people are asked to rate, how would you rate your health, that went up. Experience of anger went down because people become better at managing it. So as you look at the kind of example that you described, I would say that as someone who’s in that stage of the career where they may not have the capacity to take on more clients. So just think, well, actually, I don’t want an uplift of 20%, 24% in sales because I might not process that. But one of the things which I suppose the EI research shows actually is that it impacts your quality of life. And there is finding which is quite common in research, is that actually EI scores correlate with age. So as we go through life and we have sort of ups, downs, highs, lows, and we learn from those. We learn from our emotional experience, and that’s hypothesis, is it feeds into our EQ score. So you’ve probably got people at that later stage of their career who actually probably have had experience which has developed their emotional intelligence. They’ve got mature standing, which means that they might not necessarily need to go out and find new clients. They’ve got experience, which has helped them develop client relationships, but they might want to take a step back at quality of life. If they’re experiencing stress, burnout, pressure, EQ can help absolutely with all of those. The other thing which is quite common as well is that if they’re playing any sort of leadership part within that business now, let’s say if they’re a business owner, EQ absolutely is key for leadership performance. So making sure that you’re building a team of people around you, you can help you develop the business. And actually, EI and leadership’s one of the biggest areas where research has been focused. But I think one of the other things I’ve got to say is that we’ve all got blind spots. It doesn’t matter where we are in life, we’ve all got things that I suppose that we could be better at. And actually shining a lens on those and improving our self-awareness is something that you can develop at all stages. Mindy Diamond: A lot of people in our industry, whether it be a recruiter or an advisor themselves, believe that efficiency or being most effective and efficient is the true north. And that to ask what may fee like unnecessary or ancillary questions that don’t directly get to help me to figure out what your asset allocation is so that I can grow your portfolio, may feel ancillary. And so, is that one of the most common objections you get when somebody, say, comes to you and they’re thinking about retaining you and they’re wondering what the benefit is? James Woodfall: Well, I think the people in firms I tend to talk to, there’s a couple of common things that are coming to mind now. One is pressure around fees. So, how can I make sure I’m articulating my value in a time where clients are more informed, they can go on AI and they come to meetings prepared with answers, and they’re challenging back around the value that advisors can provide. So getting back, I suppose, and the answer is funnily enough, is actually if you’ve designed your service around a proposition which makes yourself easy to replace by someone else who can do it for the same or cheaper price with a promise of better performance, or even in the years coming, a robo-advisor, it’s going to be challenging to retain and grow clients. But I’m not particularly worried about AI. The other types of firms that come to me is to say, “Look, we’ve identified actually that we need to think differently about our business model, what we do and who we serve, because it’s going to be easier than it’s ever been for clients to come up to do some of these things themselves.” But absolutely what is untouchable, I think, is this ability to create a human connection, to sit down and discuss a range of different options. “Do I do X, do I do Y? What are the trade-offs if I choose that over that?” And to uncover those things which, as I said, really keep people up at night and solve for them. I think it’s going to be quite hard to replicate that digitally. Mindy Diamond: So I want to get to a end that you hit the nail on the head, and I want to delve deeper into it. Whatever the advisor is looking for, they may not worry about pressure around fees, they may not be kept up at night. They have a practice or a business that’s worked well all these years and is growing organically and it’s more than good enough. But anybody who isn’t concerned about the potential impact of AI on their business and whether they’re a financial advisor or recruiter or anybody else, is living under a rock. So, the goal for everyone should be to make yourself untouchable. And you hit it on the head, it’s the ability to create human connection. So, I want to ask you something. It occurs to me, you talk a lot about learning to ask the right questions. In some cases, the questions that a client never been asked before makes sense to me. But I think the real skill, I mean, I imagine anybody can teach you a list of questions to ask. The real skill comes in is knowing what to do with that information. So, let’s assume that someone says an advisor says you ask that smart question, “What keeps you up at night? What do you think about at 3:00 AM?” Pressure around fees. I find people, clients asking me, prospects asking me all the time what sort of value I can add, whether it be in the land of AI or competitively, whatever it is, pressure around fees. What do you do? So you’ve asked the smart question, but what do you teach? What do you do with that information? James Woodfall: It’s a mindset, I think, because having just say a list of questions I don’t think is really helpful to any advisor when you’re training them. And yet I find I do get people who, okay, say, “Well, look, what questions should we ask? Have you got a list of questions that you would ask?” I hold back giving those out because I think that, well, that’s what I would say. It’s not necessarily going to land the same way if you say it. The mindset I’m trying to teach advisor is to adopt a curious mindset. So not asking questions for question’s sake, but if I’m talking to someone, what I want to do is I want to understand, how are you thinking? How do you see the problem? What assumptions are you making? What things do you believe which maybe don’t line up with how things are in reality, or goals, objectives, or whatever it is. So I’m trying to understand how you think, and that requires not asking questions off a list of great questions to ask, comes off of understanding the format for that, is utilizing the open questions to gather information, to check assumptions that might sit behind them, because actually understanding those assumptions is really, really useful. And to then summarize and play back to someone that you’re talking to so that you can demonstrate that you’re listening and you deeply understand them, and being able to summarize and be able to succinctly put their words into a, “Well, what do we do next about this?” Mindy Diamond: Yeah, and, why does it matter? I love that because what I always say is it’s art, not science. AI could give you a list of, if I put in the topic of emotional intelligence and give me a list of 10 smart questions to ask relative to X. One of the questions I would ask someone from an emotional perspective that demonstrates I have strong emotional perspective relative to pressure around fees, AI could spit out the questions. But I think you’re 100% right. The real key is being a good listener and meeting someone where they are. And it’s not about a prescribed or canned list of questions that demonstrate you have strong emotional intelligence. It’s much more about asking the right next question, saying the right thing, the validating statement afterwards. And not as a means to an end, not as a means to a transaction, not as just a way of checking the box, I have emotional intelligence, but really because demonstrating that you deeply care. And I like what you said, the notion of a changed mindset. Do people get that right away? I guess what I’m asking is, financial advisors, while smart ones who are looking to make themselves untouchable by AI will get that concept. They’re looking to differentiate themselves and they’re looking to hone the skills that AI can’t bring to the table. But at the same time, financial advisors are number oriented and goal oriented. And so, how long does it typically take to begin to see, or how do you paint the picture about getting from here to there, connecting the dots between strengthening changing your mindset, strengthening your emotional intelligence, and seeing more results? James Woodfall: Well, look, it’s about behavior change, isn’t it? Like any kind of behavior change, there has to be a few things at play. One is that you have to have a good understanding of where you are right now, what things that you are good at, but what things you need to work on. And then effectively the things you need to work on, you need a plan of how you’re going to work on them. So I think commonly how you develop these kind of relational skills is that you need to be able to get close to, what does the goal look like? Where am I headed? If I get this right, what’s it going to look like? And then you need to have a plan to get from A to B. And actually part of that plan has to be built around good feedback. And I was quite lucky where during my career, I worked for two large banks before I started my firm. And I had really, really good training from managers that I worked with, almost on a monthly basis would come and sit in my client meetings and then feedback to me about what I could have done better. And so actually, if you’re going to really commit to developing, I suppose relational skills and becoming more emotionally intelligent, you need help from someone within your firm or externally to come in and actually observe you by trying out new things and giving you feedback. Now of course, you could do some of that yourself if you’re doing a virtual meeting, you could hit record, play it back, be your own analyst. But quite often we can’t see that ourselves, but if you’ve got say a third party, they can watch you in action. Quite quickly they can hone in and say, “Well, actually, you could have asked a different question here, or actually if you’d phrased that like this, you might’ve got a bit more information, or the client closed down when you ask that question.” So actually then, you start to create that behavior change. So feedback I think is one thing, but actually aligning it with really, values, I think. So, one of the things that I suppose is quite important for behavior change is that we are motivated to do things where we strongly believe it’s the right thing to do. So, I think which is why it can be quite difficult for a firm to bring in with a team of advisors and say, “Well, we’re going to roll out emotional intelligence training,” because you’ll get some of us go, “This is brilliant.” Mindy Diamond: Eye roll. I would imagine eye roll is the… It can be a lot of the response, right? James Woodfall: You get a lot of resistance, because some people see it as a criticism of just saying, “Well, actually I’m good at that. I don’t need training in that, thank you very much.” Mindy Diamond: And because if efficiency in getting to a goal is the true north, I mean, I think the mindset shift you’re talking about is going from believing that getting to the goal by just asking the right numbers and dealing in data, changing that from it’s about building a relationship, which ultimately will impact the amount you manage and how you grow and how you connect and all of that stuff. But for people that are goal-oriented, linear in their thinking, I imagine this can be not just felt as a criticism but hard to embrace. James Woodfall: Oh, yeah, no. I think we view the brain as kind of a black box. I do get people I speak to, they go, “Mental health isn’t real. And all of this is psychobabble,” but from the people that I’ve had feedback from, and this is even for people I haven’t trained. I wrote a book about 18 months ago about the topic which talks about emotion intelligence within the 5X context. I’ve had people contact me on LinkedIn and say, “Look, I read your book. I’ve been following your content for a while. I’ve put some of the ideas to work, and I’m now getting my manager and their manager contact me and saying, ‘What are you doing differently?'” Because all of a sudden they’re opening up conversations with clients that they couldn’t before, doing business with clients where they couldn’t before. And all it is that this kind of focus on the client, the relationship, building that connection, and all of a sudden you start seeing that convert into more sales opportunities. Mindy Diamond: Yes and more yes, because that’s always been our philosophy, my philosophy from starting the business and our philosophy, and I couldn’t agree with you more. You articulated it probably as did, I got to it instinctively. You have research behind it, etc. By the way, for our listeners, we will link your book in the notes for this episode if anybody’s interested in buying it. But you hit the nail on the head, so, or you took the words out of my mouth in terms of next question. Who are your clients? Are they individual advisors? Are they independent RIAs? Are they Morgan Stanley and Merrill Lynch? And what kind of work do you do for them? James Woodfall: So, I do, there’s probably two parts to my business. One is the consulting training part, which is going into firms, typically firms that were the owner managed typically, where the owner either is still advising or has a big impact on other behaviors of the advice team that’s underneath them. And really, I work on a consultancy basis. So rather than going and just provide EI training, what I do is effectively start with understanding the business. So exactly as I’ve been talking to you about, the process I used to follow as an advisor, it’s the same process I follow when I’m working with practices, is I want to find out what’s going well in the business. Where are the blockers, what’s not going so well? And I’m a social science researcher. So I’d want to spend some time in the business actually doing a bit of a deep dive and maybe speaking to the team while the owner’s not in the room and finding out a bit about how they’re seeing things. Because ultimately, what that will do is it allows me to look at thematically extracting what types of training interventions might move the needle within the business. And then I put that onto a report for businesses and say, “Look, this is what I think we should be doing.” Some of that might be me working one-to-one, doing that coaching, observing, training with particular people in the business who have been highlighted as requiring development, or it might be group training, might be taking the whole teams through a training program. And then following up, helping build those development plans, and then being there supporting with the one-to-ones as they bed in that behavior change. So, that’s one part of the business. The other part of the business is working for the larger firms. I’ve done a bit of work for Fidelity this year and last year, and they’re looking to hire me as an authority expert on the topic to put together training programs that go out to the advisors that they work with. So, there’s the two aspects, like an external speaker trainer that’s brought in by some of the larger companies. And then the other one is a bit more hands-on, applying not only the science but my experience of having been there and run a business. Mindy Diamond: Right. So are the big firms like… So you mentioned Fidelity, are the wirehouses, Merrill, Morgan, UBS, Wells Fargo, are they embracing this? Are the big banks embracing it, or is this largely in the RIA space right now? James Woodfall: In the UK, there’s been a huge kind of interest in emotional intelligence, behavioral finance, relational skills. And actually, a lot of the kind of people who require influential in the UK are actually based in the US. And so, I think there’s a good bit of crossover. We’ve got good people who are specialists in looking at the retirement piece from a retirement transition about, how do you support people through what is a profound psychological transition? So, I think the RIAs are really interested in it as a topic. Then we’ve got the larger institutions are interested in it either as the RIAs are clients of theirs and they want to be seen to providing thought leadership to the RIAs and helping them develop these skills. But also, we’ve got some quite large companies in the UK now here, like the banks, for example, the banks or the whole exited the advice market in around about 2012, 2013, and then this year they’re starting to come back. So they’ve had 15 years nearly out of the market and they’re coming back because they’re just wanting an opportunity for face-to-face advice. So, I think actually it’s a hot topic now and I think all segments of the market are looking at, how do they develop non-technical skills to help them succeed in the future? Mindy Diamond: Can someone who was not born with strong EQ, can they learn this? James Woodfall: Absolutely. One of the interesting things about EQ is it’s not like IQ, for example. IQ is our a sort of cognitive ability. There was some good research that was done probably about, I think 2016, which looked at, do you remember all this sort of brain training apps like, if you do Sudoku, do you get smarter? You get better at Sudoku, but it doesn’t translate into performance on another. You don’t get better at crosswords from doing Sudoku, for example. So, IQs are pretty much fixed and there’s not a lot we can do about that. But EQ has been shown to be a trainable ability. So regardless of where you are now, if you understand your strengths and weaknesses and put a plan together for improvement, everyone has the ability to improve their EQ. And it’s not like personality, for example, where it’s quite hard to shift the dial. Let’s say if you’re quite strongly introverted and you find social situations difficult, if you just took that approach and said, “Well, look, can we make you extremely extroverted?” The answer would be, well, probably not. But EQ absolutely helps that person because noticing that you feel uncomfortable in, say, a networking situation if you have to do that professionally, having the tools in the bag to manage that feeling and throw yourself into the experience, that’s EQ in action. So, it doesn’t matter your baseline of where you are, EQ can have a big impact on your ability to perform across a range of different contexts, home, work, with friends. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Let’s talk about your comment that EQ or strong emotional intelligence is what can make an advisor untouchable by AI. And I assume the premise being that, I can’t replace a human relationship. It may be able to come up with the questions, but at least for today it lacks the ability to know what to do with that information and to create the human connection. Talk to me more about that. How and why is that? I mean, is that part of why people are coming to you, because they’re worried about AI encroaching on their business? James Woodfall: Where we are at the moment is actually AI… Let’s look at healthcare for a second. Chatbots in healthcare have actually been outperforming humans in some respects. So there’s a type of therapy called cognitive behavior therapy, that’s been run with AI agents and patients. And as researchers to show that actually, disclosure has increased when patients are speaking to a chatbot because cognitive behavior therapy is like it’s guided, is a method, it’s a methodology to it. But disclosure increases and this theory behind that is is that people open up more when they don’t feel like they’re being judged by another person. So that’s interesting, because that saying to us, “Well, actually, people are trusting AI agents with very, very personal information, and people are already getting that feeling of empathy with AI agents.” Because if you tell an AI agent something deeply personal and it says, “That must have been really difficult for you,” for example. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, it does that well. Wonderful feedback about how great you are or what a smart question you just asked. James Woodfall: Yeah, but it’s synthetic, it’s not real empathy, it’s synthetic empathy. Whilst we might feel actually we get that feeling that we’re being understood, it’s not real. And I think the advisor’s edge is, look, I think where we might end up with this is that if you take a step back and you do this kind of exercise of what’s my ideal client, the ideal client is, I think, now is someone who is still time poor. So yes, an AI agent might be able to interview you, build a financial plan, but do you really want to spend the time doing that or do you have any inclination to do that? No. Well, that’s a perfect client who would hire an advisor. They value human relationships. Obviously when we do get AI entering the advisor market, it’s going to be at a lower price point. So actually, we’re now talking about a difference between experience. So the experience of being with an advisor comes at a premium. So that experience is going to be what people are going to pay additional value for. So, it’s the experience of dealing with a human. It’s the experience of dealing with a human who can talk them through complex information and options, help them understand their thinking and apply judgment, connect with those emotional things. But there’s a whole range of information that we get when we’re talking face-to-face, which AI doesn’t have access to. So back to that retirement example, if we say, “Well, man, I’ve modeled your plan. If we do X, Y, and Z, you’re not going to run out of money when you retire. You’re going to be okay.” And then the person, usually what they do is they sigh with relief, which is actually the emotion of joy, relief is actually happiness. So that sigh of relief and the softening of muscle tension in the body that you see when you’re face-to-face with another person, AI can’t, doesn’t get that data. Mindy Diamond: And how powerful is that? So, why does that matter? If I say, “I have X, I need Y. I have X number of years until I retire. Will I have enough money to retire the way I want to?” AI can spit that answer out faster than any financial advisor and come back hopefully saying, “Yes,” they’ll know that I will experience relief and joy because I’ll write back saying, “Great news.” It’ll say, “Yes, that is fabulous news.” It’ll tell me why I’m relieved and all that sort of stuff. So, why does that matter? James Woodfall: I think fundamentally, it comes back to trust. For those people who can get that quick answer, they’ll go, “Yeah, that’s great.” But there’ll be some people who go, “Yeah, fine. I’ll take that answer at face value.” There’ll be other people who go, “Well, what if you made a mistake?” Quite interesting that actually, people will get the same answer from a human advisor and they’ll trust it more. And I think one of those things is because we’re wired for connection, so when empathy develops, it’s quite interesting. Something which you see in young children, for example, is when we develop at the very early stage, probably about three or four years old, before children have learned to self-regulate their emotions, you see emotional contagion in groups of children happen quite rapidly. You get one child who say gets a toy taken away from them and starts crying, and then all the other children at the same age in the nursery start crying. Now, none of those other ones are crying because they’re sad. They’re crying because we have these things called mirror neurons, which means we pick up and mirror the emotional state of people around us. So, you actually get an experience of shared feeling and especially if you’ve got strong rapport, strong relationship, you actually share emotions of the people around you. Now, of course, as we grow out of that developmental stage, we learn this ability to understand that actually what we’re feeling isn’t happening to us, it’s happening to someone else. But have you ever been around… My favorite example for this is, if my wife has had a bad day at work because she comes home and starts slamming the door and banging cupboards, why I start to feel anger, because it’s rubbing off, it’s in the room. So, it’s this shared understanding that I think is where the value is. And so absolutely the answer might be faster and quicker, but for some clients they value that experience of having that answer delivered by someone who understands them. Mindy Diamond: And I think, so the point is that there will be clients or prospects that will value the efficiency of AI, that don’t necessarily need the face-to-face, that don’t necessarily… They just want the answer. They want the answers to the test, they don’t care how you got there. But what you’re talking about is finding the clients that really value the human connection. And if that’s what in fact is going to make advisors untouchable, then they need to make sure that they really strengthen this skill. James Woodfall: It’s not just the answer, but it’s the whole experience that’s wrapped around that. So actually last year, and my wife took me to a restaurant and we had a lovely, lovely meal. And on the menu there was this cup of coffee and the beans were like one of the rarest beans in the world. They’re the ones that get eaten by this little animal with the jungle in it, poops them out, and then the beans get roasted. But it was about 40 pounds for this cup of coffee and I thought, well, I’m going to have that. But that’s the experience, isn’t it? I could get a cup of coffee at McDonald’s, but actually the experience of this, something which is rare, exclusive, delivered in an amazing environment, that’s what you’re paying for. So, you’ve got to remember that actually if experience dictates a lot of what we value as well. So because if all of our decisions were made on price, Ferrari wouldn’t have a business because everyone would just be buying the cheapest car that does the job. You’re going to think advisors that are going to operating in this space, well, they need to think about the whole package, as in the experience that the plan that’s delivered, and the advice. Mindy Diamond: But it speaks to the notion of any advisor that isn’t thinking about AI’s impact on his business and how to reshape or rewire the business, even just rewiring the value proposition, retooling their value proposition, how they explain their value and what they do needs to change because they’re competing not only with the advisor that sits next to them or down the hall, but they’re competing with AI. How about as AI, as you see AI develop? So fast-forward five years, you and I are talking about where AI is today, but AI is, God knows where it’ll be five years from now. So, how do you foresee, do you still foresee the advisor being untouchable if they get this right, five or 10 years from now? James Woodfall: I don’t think it’s financial advice that’s unique with this, because I think it’s any profession where at the moment human judgment and understanding are valued. Healthcare, for example, same thing, doctors follow consultancy process. You’ve got this like tax, legal, a whole range of professions which are all grappling on the same problem. So I think in five years time, I think the answer is, is that we just don’t know what AI will look like. But certainly in the moment, if you track what Claude are doing with code work, and what Perplexity is doing with its skills and add-ons, a lot of it is actually at the moment geared up to freeing up the advisor’s time so that they can spend more time with clients. So, I think at the moment this sort of trend is looking like AI companies want to support advisors to be way more efficient so that they can deal with more clients. But in five years time, who knows? I think probably one of the biggest leaps that will happen is when AI is no longer working from, say, just a transcript. If it gets out to that kind of chat where you can actually interact with an AI agent like you and I are talking, I think that’s going to provide a different experience, because then you’re moving it from, as I said, that kind of structure where somebody is stuck there tapping away at keyboard, having a conversation with a chatbot, effectively, to actually having a conversation with an embodied agent with a face, gestures, a voice. That I think will start to change things a little bit. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Well, it will be an interesting future, for sure. This has been a fascinating conversation. I really enjoyed it, and thank you so much for sharing so graciously. Is there anything to wrap up that I didn’t ask you, that you would want an advisor to know about this concept or anything you’re thinking about? James Woodfall: I think we’ve taken a broad sweep and then a deep dive into certain areas. I think really probably have to get started. I think probably one of the… I mean, you mentioned obviously I’ve got a book that you share the links to, which is fantastic. Audiobook is available to that as well on Spotify or wherever audiobooks are listed. I think there’s a lot of good advice in that about how to get started. So, I think for people who are looking at covering that next step of, what do we do, it’d be, yeah, pick up a book and have a bit of a deep dive. If you want to skip the book and come straight to having a conversation with me, then I write a weekly email, which goes out once a week, which is just one topic. So very much like we’ve been talking today, I share ideas on that once a week, or on LinkedIn, I’m around on LinkedIn as well. Mindy Diamond: Good. Well, we will link all of it so everyone knows how to find you. Thank you again for being so gracious. Love the topic, love the work that you’re doing, love that there’s a need for it, and can’t wait to see where you go from here. James Woodfall: Brilliant. No, I enjoyed it. Thank you. Mindy Diamond: Thank you. As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously, and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

A Special Industry Update, With Jason Diamond and Mindy Diamond Jason and Mindy Diamond revisit how advisor due diligence is evolving—from AI and enterprise value to firm stability, ownership, and optionality—and why those questions matter more than ever. In Summary Due diligence has always been about finding the right fit. But what advisors are evaluating has expanded considerably. In this replay of an Industry Update, Jason Diamond and Mindy Diamond revisit The Advisor Transition Playbook to explore how advisor priorities continue to evolve. Beyond the traditional reasons advisors consider change, they discuss newer factors shaping decisions today—from artificial intelligence and enterprise value to ownership structure, firm stability, and long-term optionality. The conversation reinforces that while every advisor’s motivations are personal, the evaluation process has become far more strategic. Today’s advisors aren’t simply comparing recruiting deals or platforms. They’re considering how today’s decisions may influence the value, flexibility, and future of the businesses they’re building. The Storyline For years, advisor movement was largely driven by familiar themes: bureaucracy, management changes, technology frustrations, and the desire for greater independence. Those factors remain important. But the conversations Diamond Consultants has with advisors today increasingly include questions that rarely surfaced just a few years ago. How should AI factor into firm selection? What is the long-term value of building enterprise value instead of simply maximizing a recruiting package? How important is a firm’s ownership structure? And how should advisors think about stability in a marketplace where acquisitions, recapitalizations, and private equity investment have become commonplace? Jason and Mindy revisit the transition framework introduced in Part 1, focusing less on the mechanics of making a move and more on the evolving criteria advisors are using to evaluate their options. The result is a broader discussion about due diligence—not simply as a transition exercise, but as an ongoing strategic process for advisors seeking to build their best business life. Topics Covered Advisor due diligence Traditional vs. emerging drivers of advisor movement Artificial intelligence in wealth management Enterprise value and advisor ownership Recruiting deals versus long-term economics Reverse due diligence Firm ownership and stability Private equity in wealth management Advisor optionality Building a long-term advisory business Blubrry Player > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why are the traditional drivers of advisor movement still relevant? (4:00) Jason and Mindy revisit the longstanding push-and-pull factors that continue to influence advisor decisions, from bureaucracy and management frustrations to the desire for greater ownership and control. How has AI become part of the due diligence process? (13:50) The discussion explores why advisors increasingly expect firms to demonstrate a clear AI strategy—and why investment, integration, and vision may become meaningful competitive advantages. Why should advisors care about enterprise value, even if they don’t technically own their business? (24:30) Jason and Mindy explain why more advisors are evaluating decisions through the lens of long-term business value rather than solely short-term economics. What does reverse due diligence really involve? (37:15) The conversation highlights why advisors should evaluate prospective firms with the same rigor firms use when evaluating advisors. How does firm ownership affect advisor optionality? (38:00) Private equity, acquisitions, and changing ownership structures have made it increasingly important to understand what happens if a firm’s strategy changes after an advisor joins. Why has due diligence become more strategic than ever? (45:30) The episode concludes with a broader discussion about defining one’s “best business life” and making decisions that align with long-term goals rather than reacting to short-term frustrations. Key Takeaways The reasons advisors evaluate change have expanded well beyond traditional frustrations such as bureaucracy and compensation. AI has become an increasingly important component of firm evaluation, not because it replaces advisors, but because it can enhance productivity and client service. Enterprise value is becoming a consideration even for advisors who currently work within employee models. Reverse due diligence is just as important as a firm’s evaluation of an advisor, particularly when assessing ownership structure, capitalization, and long-term stability. The most effective transition decisions balance immediate economics with long-term flexibility, ownership, and optionality. Every advisor’s definition of success is different, making clarity around personal goals the foundation of any due diligence process. https://youtu.be/WZbUZJZK1yc Quotable Moments “Every advisor deserves to live their best business life.” “Just because you’re frustrated doesn’t mean you should move. You need something worth moving toward.” “The question isn’t simply what you’re paid today. It’s what you’re building over time.” “Knowledge is power. Understanding what your business is worth should be part of every advisor’s decision-making process.” FAQs Why are more advisors expanding their due diligence beyond compensation? While transition economics remain important, advisors are increasingly evaluating technology, AI capabilities, enterprise value, ownership opportunities, and long-term flexibility as part of the decision-making process. How should advisors evaluate a firm’s AI strategy? Rather than looking for finished products, advisors should assess whether a firm has a clear vision, meaningful investment, and an integrated approach to using AI to improve advisor productivity and client experience. What is reverse due diligence? Reverse due diligence is the process of evaluating a prospective firm as thoroughly as the firm evaluates the advisor. It includes understanding ownership structure, financial stability, culture, technology, leadership, and long-term strategy. Why does enterprise value matter for employee advisors? Even advisors who do not currently own their businesses may benefit from understanding how different business models create opportunities for ownership, long-term value creation, and future monetization. How has private equity changed advisor due diligence? Private equity has introduced new opportunities for growth and capital, but it has also made it more important for advisors to understand ownership structures, investment horizons, and what future transactions could mean for their business. What does Diamond Consultants mean by an advisor’s “best business life”? It refers to aligning an advisor’s business model, goals, client experience, compensation, flexibility, and long-term vision in a way that best supports both the advisor and the clients they serve. While transition economics remain important, advisors are increasingly evaluating technology, AI capabilities, enterprise value, ownership opportunities, and long-term flexibility as part of the decision-making process. Rather than looking for finished products, advisors should assess whether a firm has a clear vision, meaningful investment, and an integrated approach to using AI to improve advisor productivity and client experience. Reverse due diligence is the process of evaluating a prospective firm as thoroughly as the firm evaluates the advisor. It includes understanding ownership structure, financial stability, culture, technology, leadership, and long-term strategy. Even advisors who do not currently own their businesses may benefit from understanding how different business models create opportunities for ownership, long-term value creation, and future monetization. Private equity has introduced new opportunities for growth and capital, but it has also made it more important for advisors to understand ownership structures, investment horizons, and what future transactions could mean for their business. It refers to aligning an advisor’s business model, goals, client experience, compensation, flexibility, and long-term vision in a way that best supports both the advisor and the clients they serve. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. Related Resources The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between – Part 1 Annual Advisor Transition Report Top 10 Tips for a Strategic Due Diligence Process Should I Stay or Should I Go? View the transcript of this episode… The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between – Part 2 A Special Industry Update with Jason Diamond and Mindy Diamond. Jason Diamond: Welcome to a replay of one of the most popular episodes from our podcast series for financial advisors, The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between. It’s Part 2 of a 2-Part Industry Update with Mindy Diamond. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner, well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our Annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: There’s been a noticeable shift in how advisors are approaching decisions about their business, not necessarily in whether they’re exploring change, but in what they’re focused on when they do. Mindy is back with me for a continuation of our earlier conversation on the Advisor Transition Playbook. Last time, we spent time on the mechanics, how due diligence works, what a move actually entails, and how to think through the process. What’s become more apparent since then is that the inputs into that process are evolving. The traditional drivers are still there, but layered on top are a set of considerations that didn’t carry the same weight before. AI is one of them, and not just as a tool, but as a differentiator that advisors are starting to diligence more seriously. Enterprise value is another. Showing up in conversations, even for advisors who don’t technically own their business, but are thinking more critically about what they’re building over time. And then there are questions around stability, ownership, and flexibility. What happens to the firm itself and whether advisors retain the ability to adapt again if circumstances change. None of this is theoretical. It’s showing up in real time conversations. What we want to do here is unpack those new triggers of advisor movement and what they suggest about how decisions are being made today. So let’s get to it. Mindy, the legend, thank you for joining me. So glad to have you on. Mindy Diamond: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. Jason Diamond: Great. Let’s dive right in. I’ll set the stage really quickly one more time. When we spoke about this topic last, we talked about the drivers of movement, what we’ll call in this conversation as the old or the legacy drivers of movement, and we spoke about the mechanics of the move. Before we get into the new drivers of movement, which I want to be the meat of the conversation, remind us, when we talk about the legacy drivers of movement …. And by the way, by saying legacy, I by no means want to suggest that they’re not valid today, because they’re equally valid, if not more so today than they were then. But when you think of the classic drivers of movement in our industry, what are they? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I would say, first of all, let’s start by saying that for every advisor, they’ve got a unique set of needs. So the first thing to say is that while you and I can talk about the categories of frustrations or things that might bother an advisor, they show up differently in each advisor’s life. So it’s important to note that everyone is unique. But generally speaking, if I had to package them, I’d say it’s number one that shows up most of the time is too much bureaucracy. A feeling that a firm or a model is just too hypervigilant in terms of compliance and it’s too bureaucratic and too hard to get things done. Number two would be some sort of change in or frustration with management. Something is going on that the person or persons that are responsible for managing the business are just not … They’re not the wind at their back. They’re obstreperous. They’re causing difficulty and frustration. And probably the third one would be less about a pain point and more about the desire to be something that they couldn’t where they were. The notion that they want to be more independent, they want to be a business owner and they just can’t do that. That doesn’t exist within the model where they work. Those probably have been the three ones top of mind, but I bet you’ll have some … You’ll add to that. Jason Diamond: I’ll add a couple. But before I do, I’ve heard you talk about this topic, maybe said another way as pushes and pulls. Can you explain what you mean by that? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I think that we think about the pushes, the frustrations, the things pushing somebody out the door, the factors that make it less easy or less fluid to do business. And there’s almost always pushes that exist when somebody comes to us, where they’re frustrated to some degree or another about certain things. But we tell people all the time that just to be frustrated should never be enough, because if all you’re doing is running from one set of problems, you’re very likely to run into maybe a different set, but still problems elsewhere. So a move needs to be driven in equal part, if not more, by pulls. Being pulled toward an opportunity that can be needle moving enough or better enough than where you are now. Pushes and pull. Jason Diamond: I love it. So let me ask you a little bit of a pointed question. Is a recruiting deal a valid pull factor? Mindy Diamond: So look, it’s different for every person. We’ve had advisors come and say, “I just went through a divorce and the most important thing to me is to recapitalize. And so a recruiting deal is really important.” And while I would never be one to say that’s not valid, it can be … And by the way, any advisor should want to and expect to better their financial situation. There should be economic gain. But it shouldn’t be the only or the primary reason for the move. So you want to monetize. The notion of wanting to monetize in the short term should be a factor in what model you pick, but it shouldn’t be the primary driver for a move. Jason Diamond: I agree with that wholeheartedly. I was going to say something I think maybe would’ve surprised you a little, which is like, yeah, I think recruiting deal is a very valid pull factor because what we’re saying is, it shouldn’t be the only pull factor. And sometimes it is and it makes us a little bit sad, I think, when that’s the case. But all of these factors you mentioned, and the ones I would add, I think that maybe technology would be another kind of factor that drives movement, all of these factors are not one specific reason. If you did the exit interview, either actually conducted the exit interview with advisors or thought exercise exit interview, I think they would point to a confluence of all of these factors. Compliance was a headache. I wanted to launch a podcast. I wanted to be able to send a timely communication to my clients. We used to hear that one during COVID a lot, right? By the time compliance approved something to send to clients, it was already stale. So do you agree with that, that it’s generally a confluence or a combination of these? Or in your experience, is it advisors are like, “No, compliance or the tech is so bad, I’m out”? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So most often there’s a straw that breaks the camel’s back incident or thing where they’re willing to put up with a series of minor paper cuts, if you will. And then almost always there’s something that happens. You and I got a call the other day from a team that said that they had split from their partner and the management of the firm was favoring the ex-partner, making it harder for them to stay or making it less fun or feel good for them to stay. So while they gave me a laundry list of things that were imperfect, I don’t know that any one of the things that were imperfect up until then would’ve been enough to drive them out. But when that one thing, that feeling that they were a second class citizen came up, that was the straw that breaks the camel’s back and went from a minorly frustrated to, “I’m out of here.” Jason Diamond: Yeah. And there’s probably a hundred examples you could walk us through. And I wanted to just highlight too, this concept is not limited to the wirehouse or employee or captive firm world, this is equally relevant for independent advisors. Granted, some of the pushes and pull factors, some of the triggers are not necessarily the same, but the idea that advisors outgrow a broker dealer or an RIA or either need or want or desire in some way, shape or form, greater autonomy, flexibility, freedom, control is certainly not limited to the employee space. I just wanted to make that point. Mindy Diamond: And I think that’s absolutely right. I think the notion of that frustrations or limitations or bureaucracy only existed if you were a W2 employee at a bulge bracket firm. That went out the window. As the industry landscape has expanded and there’s more and more valid ways to be a financial advisor, there’s more and more ways for a firm or a model or an infrastructure to frustrate an advisor. And that’s not being overly negative. It’s just to say there is no perfection anywhere. Jason Diamond: Yeah, 100%. And by the way, to play a little bit of devil’s advocate on that, and then we’ll move on, I would just say there are pain points that might come from a firm being small and subscale as well. My firm doesn’t have efficient technology. They don’t invest enough in the business. They don’t provide a lead mechanism. They don’t have a robust banking and lending or investment solutions platform. So this stuff cuts both ways. An advisor can be frustrated or limited and an advisor can be excited. Pushes and pulls I think touch on, we’ve heard from advisors in every single pocket of the market, this is a relevant concept. Mindy Diamond: The theme of this is that every advisor deserves to live their best business life. That’s what people are in search of when they reach out to us or when they engage with us. What they’re looking for more than anything, and this is irrespective of where they work or how long they’ve worked or how much they manage, every advisor is in search of their best business life. And what defines their best business life is having the best quality of work life, but also the best ability to do what they want to do with their business, to serve their clients without limitations, to grow the way they want, to be paid a fair wage, and ultimately set up to maximize the value of the business they’ve built. Those are the definitions of one’s best business life. Jason Diamond: I used an even simpler definition of best business life and I stole it from you, which is the true north concept, which is if your true north is maximizing enterprise value and chasing the dollar and trying to build something that’s scalable and saleable, then great. If your true north is to build a lifestyle practice, there’s plenty of advisors who are successful and happy and content in that regard as well. And I think that’s what we’re talking about, is finding your true north and then it’s possible. I mean, that’s the beauty of the landscape. We’re talking about this, a lot of this is pain points or things that advisors experience. The exciting part of this is there’s never been a better time to be an advisor because of the breadth of choice they have and the ecosystem that’s been born to support advisors, to your point, across the spectrum. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And it’s also, I think, worth saying that it starts with really good crystal clear clarity around not only what’s frustrating you, but what you want ideal to look like. Because I can’t tell you, or I can tell you because … I can’t tell our listeners, I can’t stress enough how often we get calls from advisors that tell us where they think they want to be or tell us they want to move. They have clarity about what’s frustrating them or what they want to change, but they don’t really have clarity about what they want it to look like. And the less clarity you have, the less likely you are to be successful in finding the exact right solution. So our work, the thing we probably do best is really work with advisors to help them. It doesn’t take long. In an hour conversation, we can help them to really get crystal clear on what they’re looking to solve for. Jason Diamond: Absolutely. All right. Great appetizer. We set the table. Let’s dive into the main course now. I want to talk now about what I’m calling the 2.0 triggers or the new triggers of movement. And to be clear, it’s not that these are more important or better or more significant drivers of movement. In fact, you could argue they’re probably at present less significant than the ones we just listed. But I think what we’re saying is these are triggers that are starting to come up more and more in conversations and we expect them to only proliferate further. And in that regard, they’re noteworthy and important for advisors because advisors should be reconciling not just what are the things I need to be worrying about today, but also what are the things I need to be potentially worrying about five years from now. So with that in mind, let’s dive in. I think the first one we have to start with is AI. And I always chuckle a tiny bit when we mention AI, we used to have to specify what are we talking about. Are we talking about artificial intelligence or alternative investments? And now it’s very clear. Everybody knows we’re talking about artificial intelligence. So the direction of the industry, no over-dramatization to say is at stake here. It’s that important of a topic. Let me ask you just very simply first, is this coming up in conversations with advisors? Mindy Diamond: Oh, all the time, but it’s almost table stakes. So I think the way it comes up is that people assume, advisors assume, and by the way, have the right to assume that AI is part of the tech stack. The notion that if I’m evaluating a firm and part of what frustrates me or part of what’s really important to me is cutting edge, really robust technology, part of what I am expecting is that a new firm is going to have really robust technology. And part of that is really robust access to AI. And has honed the AI in a way that’s user-friendly, that really answers or delivers on making me a better … Not replacing me as an advisor, but making me a better, more efficient advisor. Jason Diamond: 100%. And I would also add, so as I think about this AI topic, I don’t want this to become a conversation around, is AI going to replace advisors, because I think we both agree that’s not going to be the case. Especially at the top end of the market for quality advisors, I think they’re not going anywhere. But in my view, when we think about the trigger of movement, AI has the potential to be transformative because a couple kind of use cases or trigger cases come to mind, and I’d love to hear your thoughts. One is, do you think advisors will potentially consider a move because they’re worried about this? So in other words, play this logic out with me. I’m 55 years old and I’m like, “Oh man, AI might be coming from my job.” And there’s firms offering 400% of revenue to move my book. Maybe I should take that check and kind of de-risk and monetize while I can. What are your thoughts on that? Mindy Diamond: I absolutely think we’re already working with that fall into that category, but to say that is the only reason for the move would be wrong. I’m grateful that people trust us enough to be transparent with us. So they let us know that underneath the notion that they want to better serve clients, they ultimately want better access to A, B, and C, they want to be able to do D, E and F with less restriction, is really the main reason for the move. But underneath it, the notion that my book, I want to protect myself. My book may well be the biggest it’s ever going to be. It is going to be worth more today than it could be in the future if things don’t go my way. And if I know I’m going to move and one of my goals is to monetize, I might want to do that now. Jason Diamond: I agree. And that’s where the top deal story comes in also. Firms paying a top deal is a part of that story. It’s what you just said, plus advisors know firms are willing to pay incredible multiples. I mean, as we speak, UBS is in market with one of the largest deals in history. So those two narratives side by side, I agree. I think this becomes more of a kind of catalyst or driver movement. It’s come up in my conversations on both sides of the spectrum. It’s the tech savvy, AI savvy advisors who are excited about this, who are like, “I want to be the most AI enabled version of myself I can be. It’s going to make me a rockstar and it’s going to widen the gap with my peers,” but it’s also come up with the people who are, I think, rightly scared and fearful about what this might mean for their job. Mindy Diamond: Let me ask you, what are examples of the way you’ve seen some of the best firms who have embraced AI? What is their narrative? What is it that they’re saying to advisors that if you come here from a tech or AI perspective, you’ll be better because we’re able to do … Fill in the blank. Jason Diamond: Yeah. So a couple that come up. First of all, I want to make the important point. Advisors do not expect that firms, either their current firm or firms that they are diligencing prospectively, have this figured out or solved. Everybody understands this is a fairly new area that firms are still very much kind of developing their strategies in. What advisors want to see is a few things. They want to see though leadership, they want to see investment, and they want to see a strategy, right? Effectively, they want to see a step in the right direction, really. So I’ll give you a couple examples. There are a number of tech savvy RIAs, very tech-enabled, AI-focused RIAs, because I think this is easier to be nimble. I think where you’ll see this quicker probably is in the independent space. That what they’re doing is things like this. An advisor logs on to their workstation in the morning and their system queues them proactively, Mr. and Mrs. Smith may be good candidates for a Roth IRA conversion. And then if the advisor decides to contact the client in some way about it, the system will of course help them draft the communication, but then it’ll take it a step further and actually help them to process and transact that conversion. So soup to nuts, ultimately driving efficiency. That’s the name of the game. That’s why firms, I think, are excited about AI, at least the good firms. Because what I think they realize it will do is, the stuff that’s a waste of time that could be automated that advisors, and probably even more so their associates, client associates are spending time on, that should be a massive time saver for advisors. And I think if you play that story out, what does that mean? It should mean bigger books of business and therefore more productive advisors because they have more time to prospect and focus on their clients. Thoughts? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I think you said it perfectly, but it raises the question then. You say that the RIAs can be more nimble. You’re right. I mean, the big story around the biggest firms was like moving a battleship, it takes a long time to turn it. It’s not as nimble. So what and how are the bigger firms competing against the RIAs with respect to AI? And second question, we still always get questions, and rightly so, about Morgan Stanley has more money to invest… Jason Diamond: That was going to be part of my answer. Mindy Diamond: … than fill in the blank RIA. So how does that all work? Jason Diamond: That is absolutely going to be part of my answer, is that I have heard this question posed almost presumptively both ways. “Oh, it’s got to be that the RIAs are going to be the clear winners in this.” And I’ve also heard, “Oh, it’s got to be that the wirehouses are going to be the clear winners in this.” I don’t think it’s going to be channel specific like that. I think it is going to be firm specific. I think there’s going to be firms that are going to do this well and firms that are going to not do this well. But there’s going to be winners in the wirehouse space. There’s going to be winners in the regional firm space, with firms like Raymond James who are clearly trying to be on the cutting edge of this. There’s certainly going to be winners in the broker-dealer space. LPL is investing heavily in this, as are many of their broker-dealer competitors. And then of course the RIA space, where sometimes they may not have the budgets, but they have a couple things. They have private equity backing, sometimes. They have the custodians that they’re built on, right, or the tech vendors that they’re built on. So Schwab and Fidelity or Orion and Addepar. They have other ways to access these innovations. One of the things that comes up with this that your question I think gets at is, a similar question that was raised around technology stacks, which is strength of offering versus integration. And that’s where I think a firm like Morgan Stanley really will shine, is they should … Because they don’t put anything out that’s not well integrated. The big firms have generally done a pretty good job of that. Versus the RIAs. Sometimes we’ve heard feedback where, yes, you have access to you name it, right? You dream it up, you can go and buy it. But the left hand may not speak to the right hand quite as well. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. And integration is probably one of the biggest … If you ask an advisor when they talk about technology as either being one of their pushes or pulls, probably what they’re referring to more than anything is not only having the capability, but having the integrated capability. So that’s a great point. And I think your point is right, that the final chapter on this has not been written. Nobody thinks that it has. And so whatever answers you and I can talk about today about who’s winning this race, or this tech race or this AI race, will be totally different tomorrow. We all know that. But I think for purposes of this conversation, to say that an advisor having an expectation that their technology be outstanding and that AI be on the table, that a firm is embracing it and heading in the right direction, if you will, has the right thought leadership and the right willingness to invest in it is what advisors are really looking for right now. Jason Diamond: Absolutely. And this is a question too from the firm’s perspective, if you are a firm of any size, you must be able to answer that. This has become question 1A. And again, I don’t mean to suggest that I think AI is the number one most important factor driving advisor movement today. It very well might be at some point down the road. I don’t think we’re there yet. But I do think it’s the topic du jour or the hot topic, where every advisor is asking about this. So that means if you’re a firm, you need to be prepared to tell the story or at least have the vision. And I think what we’re hearing from both advisors and from firms is this, AI is going to … What is right now a gap between the good and the bad, the quality and the non, is going to become an absolute chasm, right? An absolutely mountainous gap between the best firms and the firms who are able to adapt this technology or this AI. And the same thing at the advisor level, between the AI-enabled superpowered advisor versus those who are in the dinosaur ages, for lack of a better term. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And we’ll move on, but it is worth saying that the day of the standalone independent, the one man or one woman band who hangs out a shingle, and to use your term, running a lifestyle practice, nothing wrong with that, but it would be near impossible to imagine a world where a standalone independent can compete with a private-equity-backed RIA or an RIA that has a big pool of capital behind them or to compete with the major firms. And our point is the ability to compete is probably more important with respect to this topic than just about any other. Jason Diamond: Totally agree. Thank you for tying a bow on that because I think that’s a good place to leave the AI topic, at least for now. I’m certain we’ll have more to say on this one. By the time we release this episode, we’ll probably have more to say on it. So we’ll have to do a follow-up again. But I want to talk now about enterprise value. And this is one where if you’re an RIA or if you’re an advisor at an independent firm, this might sound like a duh, but hear me out on this one. The idea is as follows, if I’m a wirehouse advisor or any sort of captive advisor, I don’t technically own anything. Agree? Mindy Diamond: Agreed. Jason Diamond: Okay. So if that’s true, that I don’t technically own anything, I technically don’t have any sort of enterprise value or ability to monetize. But my premise here and why I would argue that enterprise value has become a driver of movement is even wirehouse advisors know … They see teams like OpenArc, a massive RIA that launched last year. They see their corner office peers breaking away, starting independent firms. They see them selling to asset managers, private-equity-backed RIAs, private equity firms in their own right for these massive multiples. And what I guess I’m getting at, and I’m curious if you agree is, if a wirehouse advisor, let’s say, sees their colleagues sell to a private equity firm for 20X, doesn’t that have to become a little bit of a catalyst for movement in its own right? Mindy Diamond: Without a doubt. Historically … Actually, let me date myself. When I started this business now 32 years ago, there was zero way for an advisor who was a captive employee of a firm, of any firm, to monetize their business. It’s why there was so much movement, because the only way they could monetize was to get paid a big fat transition deal to move from one firm to the other. Jason Diamond: Yep. Mindy Diamond: Obviously, we all know that first it started with the big firms, and then just about every brokerage firm on the street began to offer a retire-in-place program. And that is the big firms or a traditional brokerage firm’s way of allowing advisor to monetize in place from their perspective to stave off attrition. And for an advisor that believes that the status quo serves them well, that finishing their career, that leaving their legacy, that leaving their team at their firm is the best thing to do, then those retire-in-place programs, like Merrill’s CTP or Morgan’s FAP or UBS’s Alpha or a name at every firm has them, is the best gift to advisors there is. But the problem is that the next generation at those firms are buying an asset they don’t own. And so when we talk about enterprise value or the desire to build enterprise value as a real driver of movement, what we’re talking about is not only that advisors want ownership of an asset, because ownership translates into more control and autonomy and agency over building it the way you want to, but it also translates into maximizing the value of the business that you’ve built. So that’s a long-winded way of saying that the OpenArc deal you are referencing, for anybody not familiar, is a Merrill Lynch team, a legacy Merrill Lynch team in Atlanta that was managing more than 120 billion in assets, part retail, ultra high net worth client assets, and part institutional consulting assets. And believe me, I don’t want to make it sound like it was a snap that one day they’re happy and the next day they’re going independent. Over a 10-year period became more and more aware, driven by the pushes and more aware of the pulse. But ultimately, while there was a long list of things they wanted to be able to do that they couldn’t to best serve clients and grow the business, the real driver at the end of the day, or I shouldn’t say the real driver, but a major driver was the notion of building and owning enterprise value. Yes, they could have all gotten very attractive deals and retired with your Merrill CTP, but they wanted to own the business, they wanted cap gains treatment. And so they went through the sweat equity big time of building what they’re calling OpenArc for the ability for probably five, 10, 20 years, because there’s partners with all different ages, so at all different times, to be able to really maximize the value of the business they’ve built. Jason Diamond: Can I push back on that for … It’s a super helpful example, but my one thought is, okay, yeah, of course, 130 billion in assets, they should be concerned with enterprise value at that size. And the delta between caring about enterprise value and not is too great because those guys have, by all accounts, a phenomenal business that is rivaled by very few in the industry. Most of our audience does not fit into that stratosphere. So what about advisors in, let’s call it the million to $10 million space? Should they still care about this concept? Mindy Diamond: Again, it’s an inside job. It’s a personal thing. Some don’t. But the answer is yes. And if I were them, I would. Why? Because whether I am generating a million a year in revenue or $10 million a year in revenue, at the end of the day, I’ve got an asset. I’ve built a valuable asset. And I have the choice at the end of the day or the middle of the day to decide a million things about that asset. How do I want to live my business life? How do I want to serve my clients? Where do I want to work? But one of the biggest factors to determining where and how they want to work is, ultimately, do I want to be able to maximize the value of the business that I’ve built? And while there are few things that are really definitive in this industry, the one thing that is absolutely indisputably definitive is that if you build an independent practice like the ex-Merrill Lynch churned RIA OpenArc team did, you will ultimately build enterprise value exponential multiples greater than any way you could monetize the business as a traditional employee. Jason Diamond: And that math absolutely still holds up even at numbers smaller than we’ve mentioned. I totally agree with that. I’ll give you one other reason why I think you should care. And I’d love your thoughts on this one. I’ll ask it two ways maybe. I’ll tell you my take and then I’ll ask you yours. Morgan Stanley, let’s use as an example. Who are Morgan Stanley’s competitors? In my opinion, the legacy answer to that is, well, of course the wirehouses are Morgan Stanley’s competitors. Merrill, UBS, Wells Fargo, what maybe used to be a longer list, but today those four. I don’t think that’s the answer anymore. I think those are the direct competitors. But because of this enterprise value conversation, I think Morgan Stanley’s competitors are anyone and everyone who recruits financial advisors with books of business. Because if you think about it, an advisor who has a $3 million business at a wirehouse, even if they’re not actually going to do this, they don’t have any entrepreneurial spirit, no desire to go independent, they still know that they could. This is an option and a viable option. And firms are even figuring out ways to cut out the middle step, right? Because this was historically a two-step process. You’re a wirehouse advisor or a W2 advisor. You break away, launch an independent business to establish your enterprise value, begin building it, and then you monetize it. If you could cut out the middle step, or even if you couldn’t, I still think it’s pretty clear that if you’re an advisor, this is important because the firms know … Like when Morgan Stanley’s writing a recruiting deal, they’re kept honest by RIAs and acquirers just the same as their direct peer set. Do you agree with that or do you think I’m reading too far into this? Mindy Diamond: Oh no, I agree a thousand percent. I think that it is naive for anyone recruiting for or on behalf of a traditional firm to think that the only competition is another traditional firm. The days of pomposity for a senior leader at a traditional firm to say, “We’ve got the best technology, the best everything fill in the blank. We have no competitors.” That’s just naive. Because even if it’s true, you’ve got the best platform infrastructure fill in the blank, there is a multitude of advisors that value things different than what you can provide. Beauty is in the eye of beholder is probably a good way to say that. But at the end of the day, what we’re really talking about is when I started the business, because there was no way, no really good way for an advisor to really monetize their life’s work, the only thing they could or were focused on from a personal financial gain perspective was the short-term deal. What are they paying? What’s the transition deal? Now, of course they’re concerned about that. But almost to a person, they’re equally concerned about what I can build and what will this allow me to build in terms of the value of the business I’m building in the long term. So let me ask you, if we’re talking about an advisor that has the ability to monetize in the short term for what could be 4X and in some cases more than that these days, and we’re talking about the ability to maximize enterprise value, and we talk about the concept of moving once and monetizing twice, what kind of numbers are we talking about? Fill in the blanks there. Jason Diamond: It’s such a hard question to answer because I do genuinely believe recruiting deals, when you talk about 300 to 400% revenue deals in the recruiting space, they vary a little bit, but I feel pretty comfortable quoting those types of numbers that most firms are somewhere in the 300 to 400% of T12 realm. There are some outliers, we mentioned UBS. But the multiple or EBITDA based or enterprise value M&A market where we’re doing these legitimate buyout transactions, the valuations do vary quite a bit. But here’s how I think about it. First of all, most firms are not purchased or sold at top line revenue. Most are sold at some sort of adjusted EBITDA number, which factors in local expenses, platform expenses, but also advisor compensation. And then that adjusted number is typically multipled. The multiples are anywhere from 8X for small kind of, let’s say, million dollar revenue businesses up to, we’ve seen deals struck at north of 20X for some of these mega cap RIAs. Typically, just back of the envelope, if I had to quote, I typically estimate around 5X top line at capital gains is a good kind of ballpark valuation. But there is quite a bit of nuance to it, more so than the traditional recruiting space. And I do think, shameless plug, part of the value in working with somebody who’s an expert on the entirety of the industry landscape is just that. It’s the idea that you need to run the horse race across multiple verticals. The good advisors who work with us typically are looking at a wire like a Morgan Stanley or a Merrill. They’re looking at a boutique firm like a Rockefeller, or they’re looking at a regional like an RBC or a Ray J. They’re looking at an independent firm like an LPL or a Sanctuary. They’re looking all across the spectrum. Mindy Diamond: I think that’s exactly right. But the topic of enterprise value, you can see how powerful it is and how wise it is. For an advisor today, when considering their personal economics to consider not just the short term, but to weigh in or add in or factor in, what could I be building and what ultimately will that business be worth at the end of the day? Jason Diamond: Yeah, 100%. Short of going out and selling your business, what can advisors do then? So I’m an advisor, okay, I’m curious about this. Or is it just as simple as, “Yeah, you should know what your business is worth if you’re an advisor”? Mindy Diamond: Definitively yes, because I mean, we always believe that knowledge is power. And just like it’s important for you to understand what your options are within your own firm, how can I ultimately retire out and monetize my business where I am, I think it’s really hard to make a decision in a vacuum without having other perspective. And getting other perspective doesn’t have to be that you have to go out and take 20 meetings. It’s not that hard for you to figure out what your business is worth to make it a data point for whether or not you’re ultimately best to retire in place or go elsewhere. Jason Diamond: Yeah, that I think is the main takeaway. And the education point is so important. I think because these are relatively new concepts for a lot of advisors that haven’t formally shopped a business before, there’s a lot of resources available. And we’ll certainly link some as well on the page for the episode. Let’s shift gears now, our kind of final trigger 2.0, which is stability and ownership structure of the firm. And this has been a little bit of a hot topic. It’s honestly been a hot topic every year because it seems like things pop up every year. And a lot of times advisors don’t reconcile the question of who owns the firm or how stable is the firm until something happens. The firm gets bought, the firm goes bankrupt, like the First Republic scenario. What should a good advisor do proactively about the idea that if you’re a W2 employee or even an employee who’s affiliated with a broker dealer, you saw this with Commonwealth, you just don’t really have control over what the firm decides to do. Give me your thoughts on this. I know it’s a big topic. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. First of all, using Commonwealth an example, it’s a good one. Because for those unfamiliar, Commonwealth is a boutique broker dealer that was privately owned and whose tagline was, “We love our privately owned status and we are never going to sell,” until one day they did. And not only did they sell, but they sold to the biggest independent broker dealer in the country, ala LPL. That’s not good nor bad, it’s just a fact. So if Commonwealth, who had definitively said we’re never up for sale, suddenly sells, any time you’re an employee of a firm, you never know what tomorrow brings in. You’re not in control over whether it’s sold. So that’s one example. But as you’re talking about this, I’m thinking about, I’m probably going back 20 years, so I’m 10 years into my career and I talked to someone who had been a very successful Merrill advisor. So I’m going to say he was probably generating around $5 million in revenue at the time. Going back 20 years, that’s a pretty significant book of business. He was courted for years by what he thought was a top RIA. And in those days, remember 20 years ago, the RIA space wasn’t nearly as mainstream as it is now. But the story the RIA told him was that ultimately, one, he was going to be a partner in the firm, that was very appealing to him. So he was going to have equity in the firm and much more freedom and control. And locally, by the way, the RIA was a really high quality brand. He worked on a lot of the economics, the short term and the long term with them. They did a ton of due diligence on his book of business. But he failed to ask … And I didn’t represent him. I just know this story. He failed to ask or do enough due diligence about the stability of the firm. What we think is really important, we talk about this expanded landscape. If you’re looking at Morgan Stanley, I don’t think you necessarily need to see Morgan Stanley’s balance sheet. If you are talking to a firm that is anything but a bulge bracket or anything but a large firm, it’s really important to do what we call reverse due diligence and to really understand if a firm expects you to open your kimono and show everything about your business to prove your worth, it is equally important that you do the same for them. In this new world order where private equity has come in and there are so many different ways for a firm to be owned and to be capitalized, it’s very important that an advisor understand what’s going on behind the scenes. And one of the questions around stability, if a firm is private equity backed, is it permanent capital? Is it patient capital? Is the private equity firm going to look to sell and monetize in five years? And then who would the likely buyer be and what does that mean for you? So the question is a big question and it’s really important. Jason Diamond: I love everything you just said, except I do think even the wirehouses, wirehouse advisors, honestly, as much as anybody should be asking these questions. And I’ll give you an example right now, UBS. And UBS, it’s not a story of balance sheet stability. I don’t think anybody has concerns that UBS is going to fail. But UBS management has been very publicly, “Oh, we’re cutting costs.” There’s been some rumors, I think for years, probably dating back 30 years to when you started the business about UBS’s commitment to the US wealth management business. I think those questions about stability and ownership structure are still valid. And to me, the implication of it is twofold. One, what you said, reverse due diligence, ask the questions, plan B. But also the concept of the exits or the off-ramps or how many bites of the apple do you get. So if you’re an advisor and you sell your business to somebody and you sign garden leave and non-competes and non-solicits, the question of ownership structure of that firm becomes less relevant because you have no off-ramps and no ability to exit that business anyway. A lot of times that’s how advisors get comfortable with this concept. And that’s what firms will tell them too, frankly, and we’re living through the middle of this, by the way, with Commonwealth and LPL, is vote with your feet, right? To the extent advisors can, the offer … And this is like, you used the example of private-equity-backed firms. This is how Rockefeller addresses the question of their private equity ownership. If we sell to UBS, all of our advisors will leave. They have that built-in put option. So knowing where the off-ramps are or how many bites of the apple an advisor gets, I think is a big concept that ties into that. But we’re absolutely seeing this pop up, probably largely because of those two examples, Commonwealth and UBS this year, more so Commonwealth, to your point. Janney’s another example last year or two years ago now where KKR comes in and buys Janney. So when these examples happen, it seems like it triggers advisors to say, “Is this something that could happen to me and should I be thinking about this?” Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So let me ask you a question. You’re talking, you’ve mentioned UBS offering this outsized deal. So how does the notion of stability and ownership factor in? If an advisor is considering an unprecedented deal from UBS, what are the caveats or concerns with respect to stability and ownership? Jason Diamond: It’s the same list of considerations you should and would ask of any other firm you’re diligencing, except I think amplified even more in the case … If I was counseling an advisor who was looking at UBS, that would be what I would say, is exactly that. You’re seeing all of these departures and defections, and I would want to have conversations with those advisors and understand exactly why and have guarantees or assurances that I’m not going to suffer from those same pain points that force them to leave. Or, and I say this a little bit flippantly, but it’s a little bit true, I understand the devil that I’m getting into bed with, but for 550%, or whatever the deal might be, I can suck it up. And that’s something that some advisors might well say as well. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Jason Diamond: I don’t want to end on the negative note of overly large transition, not there’s anything wrong with large transition deals, but as you look out, is there anything that’s coming up in your conversation with advisors that you view as the next wave of this? I’ll give you one that maybe you could touch on, and if you have another one, feel free to offer it in conclusion, but do you think age or advisors starting to succeed out of the business will become more of a driver of movement, even though to your point, advisors can access sunset deals? Mindy Diamond: I do actually, because I think the more the average advisor age increases, the more likely that those advisors are going to want to move on to do something else to monetize the business. And so much of the wave of movement we see is driven not so much by the senior advisor, because many seed advisors are happy enough with the ability to monetize their business in place. Even though it may not maximize the value of the business, it’s a close enough approximation and it means I don’t have to disrupt the apple cart. So we support that 100%. But where we get the calls is from the next generation that says, “Yeah, but hold on a minute. It’s a good way for me to take on a book of assets that I not otherwise have access to. And it’s great for my senior partner, my father, my mother, my whatever to monetize the business. But I’m buying an asset again that I don’t own and I ultimately don’t have control over all these things we’re talking about, the AI investment, the ability to create enterprise value, the stability, the cost cutting, all of it.” So I think it’s all of the above. You say, “What else is there?” I think that’s it. It’s all of the above. It’s anything and everything that drives movement. One, it’s personal, it’s highly unique, it’s different for every advisor. There are certainly themes, and we’re talking about them, but there’s a million different things. It’s personal. And while there are an awful lot of pushes, things that can frustrate an advisor, it is the most exciting time in our view to be an advisor, particularly a high quality one, because the options abound, the ecosystem is big, because the ability to monetize both in the short term and the long term is big, mammoth, exponentially bigger than it ever was before. And the true ability to really build an enterprise has never been greater. And I think all of those things, the desire for an advisor to be the best that they can be and live their best business life is probably the biggest driver of all. Jason Diamond: It’s really true these days, if you can dream it, you can probably build it. And we’ve said in the past, if you build it, they will buy it. It’s a great place to end. This was a really fun topic. I think that’s a spot on kind of fourth trigger, by the way, too. This sort of next gen is almost like the force multiplier or the amplifier of like they see all this other stuff and they’re asking these questions even more so. Because if I’m 60 years old, none of this matters all that much. It matters, but I’m out of the business in five to 10 years. Versus the next gen advisors are the ones who often bear the brunt of this. So I think a lot of really smart stuff. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and expertise. In the episode page, we’ll be sure we have our Industry Transition Report. And we’ve also created a tool, the top 10 tips for a strategic due diligence process, which is a great kind of practical hand-in-hand companion for this topic for advisors looking for more pointed tips on the due diligence process. So Mindy, thank you again. This has been a blast. Mindy Diamond: My pleasure. Thank you. Jason Diamond: Thank you for joining us. We’ll be back with a new episode next week, so be sure to listen in. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between – Part 2 A Special Industry Update with Jason Diamond and Mindy Diamond. Jason Diamond: Welcome to a replay of one of the most popular episodes from our podcast series for financial advisors, The Advisor Transition Playbook: The Latest on Due Diligence, the Move, and Everything In Between. It’s Part 2 of a 2-Part Industry Update with Mindy Diamond. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner, well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our Annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: There’s been a noticeable shift in how advisors are approaching decisions about their business, not necessarily in whether they’re exploring change, but in what they’re focused on when they do. Mindy is back with me for a continuation of our earlier conversation on the Advisor Transition Playbook. Last time, we spent time on the mechanics, how due diligence works, what a move actually entails, and how to think through the process. What’s become more apparent since then is that the inputs into that process are evolving. The traditional drivers are still there, but layered on top are a set of considerations that didn’t carry the same weight before. AI is one of them, and not just as a tool, but as a differentiator that advisors are starting to diligence more seriously. Enterprise value is another. Showing up in conversations, even for advisors who don’t technically own their business, but are thinking more critically about what they’re building over time. And then there are questions around stability, ownership, and flexibility. What happens to the firm itself and whether advisors retain the ability to adapt again if circumstances change. None of this is theoretical. It’s showing up in real time conversations. What we want to do here is unpack those new triggers of advisor movement and what they suggest about how decisions are being made today. So let’s get to it. Mindy, the legend, thank you for joining me. So glad to have you on. Mindy Diamond: Thank you. I’m so happy to be here. Jason Diamond: Great. Let’s dive right in. I’ll set the stage really quickly one more time. When we spoke about this topic last, we talked about the drivers of movement, what we’ll call in this conversation as the old or the legacy drivers of movement, and we spoke about the mechanics of the move. Before we get into the new drivers of movement, which I want to be the meat of the conversation, remind us, when we talk about the legacy drivers of movement …. And by the way, by saying legacy, I by no means want to suggest that they’re not valid today, because they’re equally valid, if not more so today than they were then. But when you think of the classic drivers of movement in our industry, what are they? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I would say, first of all, let’s start by saying that for every advisor, they’ve got a unique set of needs. So the first thing to say is that while you and I can talk about the categories of frustrations or things that might bother an advisor, they show up differently in each advisor’s life. So it’s important to note that everyone is unique. But generally speaking, if I had to package them, I’d say it’s number one that shows up most of the time is too much bureaucracy. A feeling that a firm or a model is just too hypervigilant in terms of compliance and it’s too bureaucratic and too hard to get things done. Number two would be some sort of change in or frustration with management. Something is going on that the person or persons that are responsible for managing the business are just not … They’re not the wind at their back. They’re obstreperous. They’re causing difficulty and frustration. And probably the third one would be less about a pain point and more about the desire to be something that they couldn’t where they were. The notion that they want to be more independent, they want to be a business owner and they just can’t do that. That doesn’t exist within the model where they work. Those probably have been the three ones top of mind, but I bet you’ll have some … You’ll add to that. Jason Diamond: I’ll add a couple. But before I do, I’ve heard you talk about this topic, maybe said another way as pushes and pulls. Can you explain what you mean by that? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I think that we think about the pushes, the frustrations, the things pushing somebody out the door, the factors that make it less easy or less fluid to do business. And there’s almost always pushes that exist when somebody comes to us, where they’re frustrated to some degree or another about certain things. But we tell people all the time that just to be frustrated should never be enough, because if all you’re doing is running from one set of problems, you’re very likely to run into maybe a different set, but still problems elsewhere. So a move needs to be driven in equal part, if not more, by pulls. Being pulled toward an opportunity that can be needle moving enough or better enough than where you are now. Pushes and pull. Jason Diamond: I love it. So let me ask you a little bit of a pointed question. Is a recruiting deal a valid pull factor? Mindy Diamond: So look, it’s different for every person. We’ve had advisors come and say, “I just went through a divorce and the most important thing to me is to recapitalize. And so a recruiting deal is really important.” And while I would never be one to say that’s not valid, it can be … And by the way, any advisor should want to and expect to better their financial situation. There should be economic gain. But it shouldn’t be the only or the primary reason for the move. So you want to monetize. The notion of wanting to monetize in the short term should be a factor in what model you pick, but it shouldn’t be the primary driver for a move. Jason Diamond: I agree with that wholeheartedly. I was going to say something I think maybe would’ve surprised you a little, which is like, yeah, I think recruiting deal is a very valid pull factor because what we’re saying is, it shouldn’t be the only pull factor. And sometimes it is and it makes us a little bit sad, I think, when that’s the case. But all of these factors you mentioned, and the ones I would add, I think that maybe technology would be another kind of factor that drives movement, all of these factors are not one specific reason. If you did the exit interview, either actually conducted the exit interview with advisors or thought exercise exit interview, I think they would point to a confluence of all of these factors. Compliance was a headache. I wanted to launch a podcast. I wanted to be able to send a timely communication to my clients. We used to hear that one during COVID a lot, right? By the time compliance approved something to send to clients, it was already stale. So do you agree with that, that it’s generally a confluence or a combination of these? Or in your experience, is it advisors are like, “No, compliance or the tech is so bad, I’m out”? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So most often there’s a straw that breaks the camel’s back incident or thing where they’re willing to put up with a series of minor paper cuts, if you will. And then almost always there’s something that happens. You and I got a call the other day from a team that said that they had split from their partner and the management of the firm was favoring the ex-partner, making it harder for them to stay or making it less fun or feel good for them to stay. So while they gave me a laundry list of things that were imperfect, I don’t know that any one of the things that were imperfect up until then would’ve been enough to drive them out. But when that one thing, that feeling that they were a second class citizen came up, that was the straw that breaks the camel’s back and went from a minorly frustrated to, “I’m out of here.” Jason Diamond: Yeah. And there’s probably a hundred examples you could walk us through. And I wanted to just highlight too, this concept is not limited to the wirehouse or employee or captive firm world, this is equally relevant for independent advisors. Granted, some of the pushes and pull factors, some of the triggers are not necessarily the same, but the idea that advisors outgrow a broker dealer or an RIA or either need or want or desire in some way, shape or form, greater autonomy, flexibility, freedom, control is certainly not limited to the employee space. I just wanted to make that point. Mindy Diamond: And I think that’s absolutely right. I think the notion of that frustrations or limitations or bureaucracy only existed if you were a W2 employee at a bulge bracket firm. That went out the window. As the industry landscape has expanded and there’s more and more valid ways to be a financial advisor, there’s more and more ways for a firm or a model or an infrastructure to frustrate an advisor. And that’s not being overly negative. It’s just to say there is no perfection anywhere. Jason Diamond: Yeah, 100%. And by the way, to play a little bit of devil’s advocate on that, and then we’ll move on, I would just say there are pain points that might come from a firm being small and subscale as well. My firm doesn’t have efficient technology. They don’t invest enough in the business. They don’t provide a lead mechanism. They don’t have a robust banking and lending or investment solutions platform. So this stuff cuts both ways. An advisor can be frustrated or limited and an advisor can be excited. Pushes and pulls I think touch on, we’ve heard from advisors in every single pocket of the market, this is a relevant concept. Mindy Diamond: The theme of this is that every advisor deserves to live their best business life. That’s what people are in search of when they reach out to us or when they engage with us. What they’re looking for more than anything, and this is irrespective of where they work or how long they’ve worked or how much they manage, every advisor is in search of their best business life. And what defines their best business life is having the best quality of work life, but also the best ability to do what they want to do with their business, to serve their clients without limitations, to grow the way they want, to be paid a fair wage, and ultimately set up to maximize the value of the business they’ve built. Those are the definitions of one’s best business life. Jason Diamond: I used an even simpler definition of best business life and I stole it from you, which is the true north concept, which is if your true north is maximizing enterprise value and chasing the dollar and trying to build something that’s scalable and saleable, then great. If your true north is to build a lifestyle practice, there’s plenty of advisors who are successful and happy and content in that regard as well. And I think that’s what we’re talking about, is finding your true north and then it’s possible. I mean, that’s the beauty of the landscape. We’re talking about this, a lot of this is pain points or things that advisors experience. The exciting part of this is there’s never been a better time to be an advisor because of the breadth of choice they have and the ecosystem that’s been born to support advisors, to your point, across the spectrum. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And it’s also, I think, worth saying that it starts with really good crystal clear clarity around not only what’s frustrating you, but what you want ideal to look like. Because I can’t tell you, or I can tell you because … I can’t tell our listeners, I can’t stress enough how often we get calls from advisors that tell us where they think they want to be or tell us they want to move. They have clarity about what’s frustrating them or what they want to change, but they don’t really have clarity about what they want it to look like. And the less clarity you have, the less likely you are to be successful in finding the exact right solution. So our work, the thing we probably do best is really work with advisors to help them. It doesn’t take long. In an hour conversation, we can help them to really get crystal clear on what they’re looking to solve for. Jason Diamond: Absolutely. All right. Great appetizer. We set the table. Let’s dive into the main course now. I want to talk now about what I’m calling the 2.0 triggers or the new triggers of movement. And to be clear, it’s not that these are more important or better or more significant drivers of movement. In fact, you could argue they’re probably at present less significant than the ones we just listed. But I think what we’re saying is these are triggers that are starting to come up more and more in conversations and we expect them to only proliferate further. And in that regard, they’re noteworthy and important for advisors because advisors should be reconciling not just what are the things I need to be worrying about today, but also what are the things I need to be potentially worrying about five years from now. So with that in mind, let’s dive in. I think the first one we have to start with is AI. And I always chuckle a tiny bit when we mention AI, we used to have to specify what are we talking about. Are we talking about artificial intelligence or alternative investments? And now it’s very clear. Everybody knows we’re talking about artificial intelligence. So the direction of the industry, no over-dramatization to say is at stake here. It’s that important of a topic. Let me ask you just very simply first, is this coming up in conversations with advisors? Mindy Diamond: Oh, all the time, but it’s almost table stakes. So I think the way it comes up is that people assume, advisors assume, and by the way, have the right to assume that AI is part of the tech stack. The notion that if I’m evaluating a firm and part of what frustrates me or part of what’s really important to me is cutting edge, really robust technology, part of what I am expecting is that a new firm is going to have really robust technology. And part of that is really robust access to AI. And has honed the AI in a way that’s user-friendly, that really answers or delivers on making me a better … Not replacing me as an advisor, but making me a better, more efficient advisor. Jason Diamond: 100%. And I would also add, so as I think about this AI topic, I don’t want this to become a conversation around, is AI going to replace advisors, because I think we both agree that’s not going to be the case. Especially at the top end of the market for quality advisors, I think they’re not going anywhere. But in my view, when we think about the trigger of movement, AI has the potential to be transformative because a couple kind of use cases or trigger cases come to mind, and I’d love to hear your thoughts. One is, do you think advisors will potentially consider a move because they’re worried about this? So in other words, play this logic out with me. I’m 55 years old and I’m like, “Oh man, AI might be coming from my job.” And there’s firms offering 400% of revenue to move my book. Maybe I should take that check and kind of de-risk and monetize while I can. What are your thoughts on that? Mindy Diamond: I absolutely think we’re already working with that fall into that category, but to say that is the only reason for the move would be wrong. I’m grateful that people trust us enough to be transparent with us. So they let us know that underneath the notion that they want to better serve clients, they ultimately want better access to A, B, and C, they want to be able to do D, E and F with less restriction, is really the main reason for the move. But underneath it, the notion that my book, I want to protect myself. My book may well be the biggest it’s ever going to be. It is going to be worth more today than it could be in the future if things don’t go my way. And if I know I’m going to move and one of my goals is to monetize, I might want to do that now. Jason Diamond: I agree. And that’s where the top deal story comes in also. Firms paying a top deal is a part of that story. It’s what you just said, plus advisors know firms are willing to pay incredible multiples. I mean, as we speak, UBS is in market with one of the largest deals in history. So those two narratives side by side, I agree. I think this becomes more of a kind of catalyst or driver movement. It’s come up in my conversations on both sides of the spectrum. It’s the tech savvy, AI savvy advisors who are excited about this, who are like, “I want to be the most AI enabled version of myself I can be. It’s going to make me a rockstar and it’s going to widen the gap with my peers,” but it’s also come up with the people who are, I think, rightly scared and fearful about what this might mean for their job. Mindy Diamond: Let me ask you, what are examples of the way you’ve seen some of the best firms who have embraced AI? What is their narrative? What is it that they’re saying to advisors that if you come here from a tech or AI perspective, you’ll be better because we’re able to do … Fill in the blank. Jason Diamond: Yeah. So a couple that come up. First of all, I want to make the important point. Advisors do not expect that firms, either their current firm or firms that they are diligencing prospectively, have this figured out or solved. Everybody understands this is a fairly new area that firms are still very much kind of developing their strategies in. What advisors want to see is a few things. They want to see though leadership, they want to see investment, and they want to see a strategy, right? Effectively, they want to see a step in the right direction, really. So I’ll give you a couple examples. There are a number of tech savvy RIAs, very tech-enabled, AI-focused RIAs, because I think this is easier to be nimble. I think where you’ll see this quicker probably is in the independent space. That what they’re doing is things like this. An advisor logs on to their workstation in the morning and their system queues them proactively, Mr. and Mrs. Smith may be good candidates for a Roth IRA conversion. And then if the advisor decides to contact the client in some way about it, the system will of course help them draft the communication, but then it’ll take it a step further and actually help them to process and transact that conversion. So soup to nuts, ultimately driving efficiency. That’s the name of the game. That’s why firms, I think, are excited about AI, at least the good firms. Because what I think they realize it will do is, the stuff that’s a waste of time that could be automated that advisors, and probably even more so their associates, client associates are spending time on, that should be a massive time saver for advisors. And I think if you play that story out, what does that mean? It should mean bigger books of business and therefore more productive advisors because they have more time to prospect and focus on their clients. Thoughts? Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So I think you said it perfectly, but it raises the question then. You say that the RIAs can be more nimble. You’re right. I mean, the big story around the biggest firms was like moving a battleship, it takes a long time to turn it. It’s not as nimble. So what and how are the bigger firms competing against the RIAs with respect to AI? And second question, we still always get questions, and rightly so, about Morgan Stanley has more money to invest… Jason Diamond: That was going to be part of my answer. Mindy Diamond: … than fill in the blank RIA. So how does that all work? Jason Diamond: That is absolutely going to be part of my answer, is that I have heard this question posed almost presumptively both ways. “Oh, it’s got to be that the RIAs are going to be the clear winners in this.” And I’ve also heard, “Oh, it’s got to be that the wirehouses are going to be the clear winners in this.” I don’t think it’s going to be channel specific like that. I think it is going to be firm specific. I think there’s going to be firms that are going to do this well and firms that are going to not do this well. But there’s going to be winners in the wirehouse space. There’s going to be winners in the regional firm space, with firms like Raymond James who are clearly trying to be on the cutting edge of this. There’s certainly going to be winners in the broker-dealer space. LPL is investing heavily in this, as are many of their broker-dealer competitors. And then of course the RIA space, where sometimes they may not have the budgets, but they have a couple things. They have private equity backing, sometimes. They have the custodians that they’re built on, right, or the tech vendors that they’re built on. So Schwab and Fidelity or Orion and Addepar. They have other ways to access these innovations. One of the things that comes up with this that your question I think gets at is, a similar question that was raised around technology stacks, which is strength of offering versus integration. And that’s where I think a firm like Morgan Stanley really will shine, is they should … Because they don’t put anything out that’s not well integrated. The big firms have generally done a pretty good job of that. Versus the RIAs. Sometimes we’ve heard feedback where, yes, you have access to you name it, right? You dream it up, you can go and buy it. But the left hand may not speak to the right hand quite as well. Mindy Diamond: Yeah, that’s actually a really good point. And integration is probably one of the biggest … If you ask an advisor when they talk about technology as either being one of their pushes or pulls, probably what they’re referring to more than anything is not only having the capability, but having the integrated capability. So that’s a great point. And I think your point is right, that the final chapter on this has not been written. Nobody thinks that it has. And so whatever answers you and I can talk about today about who’s winning this race, or this tech race or this AI race, will be totally different tomorrow. We all know that. But I think for purposes of this conversation, to say that an advisor having an expectation that their technology be outstanding and that AI be on the table, that a firm is embracing it and heading in the right direction, if you will, has the right thought leadership and the right willingness to invest in it is what advisors are really looking for right now. Jason Diamond: Absolutely. And this is a question too from the firm’s perspective, if you are a firm of any size, you must be able to answer that. This has become question 1A. And again, I don’t mean to suggest that I think AI is the number one most important factor driving advisor movement today. It very well might be at some point down the road. I don’t think we’re there yet. But I do think it’s the topic du jour or the hot topic, where every advisor is asking about this. So that means if you’re a firm, you need to be prepared to tell the story or at least have the vision. And I think what we’re hearing from both advisors and from firms is this, AI is going to … What is right now a gap between the good and the bad, the quality and the non, is going to become an absolute chasm, right? An absolutely mountainous gap between the best firms and the firms who are able to adapt this technology or this AI. And the same thing at the advisor level, between the AI-enabled superpowered advisor versus those who are in the dinosaur ages, for lack of a better term. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. And we’ll move on, but it is worth saying that the day of the standalone independent, the one man or one woman band who hangs out a shingle, and to use your term, running a lifestyle practice, nothing wrong with that, but it would be near impossible to imagine a world where a standalone independent can compete with a private-equity-backed RIA or an RIA that has a big pool of capital behind them or to compete with the major firms. And our point is the ability to compete is probably more important with respect to this topic than just about any other. Jason Diamond: Totally agree. Thank you for tying a bow on that because I think that’s a good place to leave the AI topic, at least for now. I’m certain we’ll have more to say on this one. By the time we release this episode, we’ll probably have more to say on it. So we’ll have to do a follow-up again. But I want to talk now about enterprise value. And this is one where if you’re an RIA or if you’re an advisor at an independent firm, this might sound like a duh, but hear me out on this one. The idea is as follows, if I’m a wirehouse advisor or any sort of captive advisor, I don’t technically own anything. Agree? Mindy Diamond: Agreed. Jason Diamond: Okay. So if that’s true, that I don’t technically own anything, I technically don’t have any sort of enterprise value or ability to monetize. But my premise here and why I would argue that enterprise value has become a driver of movement is even wirehouse advisors know … They see teams like OpenArc, a massive RIA that launched last year. They see their corner office peers breaking away, starting independent firms. They see them selling to asset managers, private-equity-backed RIAs, private equity firms in their own right for these massive multiples. And what I guess I’m getting at, and I’m curious if you agree is, if a wirehouse advisor, let’s say, sees their colleagues sell to a private equity firm for 20X, doesn’t that have to become a little bit of a catalyst for movement in its own right? Mindy Diamond: Without a doubt. Historically … Actually, let me date myself. When I started this business now 32 years ago, there was zero way for an advisor who was a captive employee of a firm, of any firm, to monetize their business. It’s why there was so much movement, because the only way they could monetize was to get paid a big fat transition deal to move from one firm to the other. Jason Diamond: Yep. Mindy Diamond: Obviously, we all know that first it started with the big firms, and then just about every brokerage firm on the street began to offer a retire-in-place program. And that is the big firms or a traditional brokerage firm’s way of allowing advisor to monetize in place from their perspective to stave off attrition. And for an advisor that believes that the status quo serves them well, that finishing their career, that leaving their legacy, that leaving their team at their firm is the best thing to do, then those retire-in-place programs, like Merrill’s CTP or Morgan’s FAP or UBS’s Alpha or a name at every firm has them, is the best gift to advisors there is. But the problem is that the next generation at those firms are buying an asset they don’t own. And so when we talk about enterprise value or the desire to build enterprise value as a real driver of movement, what we’re talking about is not only that advisors want ownership of an asset, because ownership translates into more control and autonomy and agency over building it the way you want to, but it also translates into maximizing the value of the business that you’ve built. So that’s a long-winded way of saying that the OpenArc deal you are referencing, for anybody not familiar, is a Merrill Lynch team, a legacy Merrill Lynch team in Atlanta that was managing more than 120 billion in assets, part retail, ultra high net worth client assets, and part institutional consulting assets. And believe me, I don’t want to make it sound like it was a snap that one day they’re happy and the next day they’re going independent. Over a 10-year period became more and more aware, driven by the pushes and more aware of the pulse. But ultimately, while there was a long list of things they wanted to be able to do that they couldn’t to best serve clients and grow the business, the real driver at the end of the day, or I shouldn’t say the real driver, but a major driver was the notion of building and owning enterprise value. Yes, they could have all gotten very attractive deals and retired with your Merrill CTP, but they wanted to own the business, they wanted cap gains treatment. And so they went through the sweat equity big time of building what they’re calling OpenArc for the ability for probably five, 10, 20 years, because there’s partners with all different ages, so at all different times, to be able to really maximize the value of the business they’ve built. Jason Diamond: Can I push back on that for … It’s a super helpful example, but my one thought is, okay, yeah, of course, 130 billion in assets, they should be concerned with enterprise value at that size. And the delta between caring about enterprise value and not is too great because those guys have, by all accounts, a phenomenal business that is rivaled by very few in the industry. Most of our audience does not fit into that stratosphere. So what about advisors in, let’s call it the million to $10 million space? Should they still care about this concept? Mindy Diamond: Again, it’s an inside job. It’s a personal thing. Some don’t. But the answer is yes. And if I were them, I would. Why? Because whether I am generating a million a year in revenue or $10 million a year in revenue, at the end of the day, I’ve got an asset. I’ve built a valuable asset. And I have the choice at the end of the day or the middle of the day to decide a million things about that asset. How do I want to live my business life? How do I want to serve my clients? Where do I want to work? But one of the biggest factors to determining where and how they want to work is, ultimately, do I want to be able to maximize the value of the business that I’ve built? And while there are few things that are really definitive in this industry, the one thing that is absolutely indisputably definitive is that if you build an independent practice like the ex-Merrill Lynch churned RIA OpenArc team did, you will ultimately build enterprise value exponential multiples greater than any way you could monetize the business as a traditional employee. Jason Diamond: And that math absolutely still holds up even at numbers smaller than we’ve mentioned. I totally agree with that. I’ll give you one other reason why I think you should care. And I’d love your thoughts on this one. I’ll ask it two ways maybe. I’ll tell you my take and then I’ll ask you yours. Morgan Stanley, let’s use as an example. Who are Morgan Stanley’s competitors? In my opinion, the legacy answer to that is, well, of course the wirehouses are Morgan Stanley’s competitors. Merrill, UBS, Wells Fargo, what maybe used to be a longer list, but today those four. I don’t think that’s the answer anymore. I think those are the direct competitors. But because of this enterprise value conversation, I think Morgan Stanley’s competitors are anyone and everyone who recruits financial advisors with books of business. Because if you think about it, an advisor who has a $3 million business at a wirehouse, even if they’re not actually going to do this, they don’t have any entrepreneurial spirit, no desire to go independent, they still know that they could. This is an option and a viable option. And firms are even figuring out ways to cut out the middle step, right? Because this was historically a two-step process. You’re a wirehouse advisor or a W2 advisor. You break away, launch an independent business to establish your enterprise value, begin building it, and then you monetize it. If you could cut out the middle step, or even if you couldn’t, I still think it’s pretty clear that if you’re an advisor, this is important because the firms know … Like when Morgan Stanley’s writing a recruiting deal, they’re kept honest by RIAs and acquirers just the same as their direct peer set. Do you agree with that or do you think I’m reading too far into this? Mindy Diamond: Oh no, I agree a thousand percent. I think that it is naive for anyone recruiting for or on behalf of a traditional firm to think that the only competition is another traditional firm. The days of pomposity for a senior leader at a traditional firm to say, “We’ve got the best technology, the best everything fill in the blank. We have no competitors.” That’s just naive. Because even if it’s true, you’ve got the best platform infrastructure fill in the blank, there is a multitude of advisors that value things different than what you can provide. Beauty is in the eye of beholder is probably a good way to say that. But at the end of the day, what we’re really talking about is when I started the business, because there was no way, no really good way for an advisor to really monetize their life’s work, the only thing they could or were focused on from a personal financial gain perspective was the short-term deal. What are they paying? What’s the transition deal? Now, of course they’re concerned about that. But almost to a person, they’re equally concerned about what I can build and what will this allow me to build in terms of the value of the business I’m building in the long term. So let me ask you, if we’re talking about an advisor that has the ability to monetize in the short term for what could be 4X and in some cases more than that these days, and we’re talking about the ability to maximize enterprise value, and we talk about the concept of moving once and monetizing twice, what kind of numbers are we talking about? Fill in the blanks there. Jason Diamond: It’s such a hard question to answer because I do genuinely believe recruiting deals, when you talk about 300 to 400% revenue deals in the recruiting space, they vary a little bit, but I feel pretty comfortable quoting those types of numbers that most firms are somewhere in the 300 to 400% of T12 realm. There are some outliers, we mentioned UBS. But the multiple or EBITDA based or enterprise value M&A market where we’re doing these legitimate buyout transactions, the valuations do vary quite a bit. But here’s how I think about it. First of all, most firms are not purchased or sold at top line revenue. Most are sold at some sort of adjusted EBITDA number, which factors in local expenses, platform expenses, but also advisor compensation. And then that adjusted number is typically multipled. The multiples are anywhere from 8X for small kind of, let’s say, million dollar revenue businesses up to, we’ve seen deals struck at north of 20X for some of these mega cap RIAs. Typically, just back of the envelope, if I had to quote, I typically estimate around 5X top line at capital gains is a good kind of ballpark valuation. But there is quite a bit of nuance to it, more so than the traditional recruiting space. And I do think, shameless plug, part of the value in working with somebody who’s an expert on the entirety of the industry landscape is just that. It’s the idea that you need to run the horse race across multiple verticals. The good advisors who work with us typically are looking at a wire like a Morgan Stanley or a Merrill. They’re looking at a boutique firm like a Rockefeller, or they’re looking at a regional like an RBC or a Ray J. They’re looking at an independent firm like an LPL or a Sanctuary. They’re looking all across the spectrum. Mindy Diamond: I think that’s exactly right. But the topic of enterprise value, you can see how powerful it is and how wise it is. For an advisor today, when considering their personal economics to consider not just the short term, but to weigh in or add in or factor in, what could I be building and what ultimately will that business be worth at the end of the day? Jason Diamond: Yeah, 100%. Short of going out and selling your business, what can advisors do then? So I’m an advisor, okay, I’m curious about this. Or is it just as simple as, “Yeah, you should know what your business is worth if you’re an advisor”? Mindy Diamond: Definitively yes, because I mean, we always believe that knowledge is power. And just like it’s important for you to understand what your options are within your own firm, how can I ultimately retire out and monetize my business where I am, I think it’s really hard to make a decision in a vacuum without having other perspective. And getting other perspective doesn’t have to be that you have to go out and take 20 meetings. It’s not that hard for you to figure out what your business is worth to make it a data point for whether or not you’re ultimately best to retire in place or go elsewhere. Jason Diamond: Yeah, that I think is the main takeaway. And the education point is so important. I think because these are relatively new concepts for a lot of advisors that haven’t formally shopped a business before, there’s a lot of resources available. And we’ll certainly link some as well on the page for the episode. Let’s shift gears now, our kind of final trigger 2.0, which is stability and ownership structure of the firm. And this has been a little bit of a hot topic. It’s honestly been a hot topic every year because it seems like things pop up every year. And a lot of times advisors don’t reconcile the question of who owns the firm or how stable is the firm until something happens. The firm gets bought, the firm goes bankrupt, like the First Republic scenario. What should a good advisor do proactively about the idea that if you’re a W2 employee or even an employee who’s affiliated with a broker dealer, you saw this with Commonwealth, you just don’t really have control over what the firm decides to do. Give me your thoughts on this. I know it’s a big topic. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. First of all, using Commonwealth an example, it’s a good one. Because for those unfamiliar, Commonwealth is a boutique broker dealer that was privately owned and whose tagline was, “We love our privately owned status and we are never going to sell,” until one day they did. And not only did they sell, but they sold to the biggest independent broker dealer in the country, ala LPL. That’s not good nor bad, it’s just a fact. So if Commonwealth, who had definitively said we’re never up for sale, suddenly sells, any time you’re an employee of a firm, you never know what tomorrow brings in. You’re not in control over whether it’s sold. So that’s one example. But as you’re talking about this, I’m thinking about, I’m probably going back 20 years, so I’m 10 years into my career and I talked to someone who had been a very successful Merrill advisor. So I’m going to say he was probably generating around $5 million in revenue at the time. Going back 20 years, that’s a pretty significant book of business. He was courted for years by what he thought was a top RIA. And in those days, remember 20 years ago, the RIA space wasn’t nearly as mainstream as it is now. But the story the RIA told him was that ultimately, one, he was going to be a partner in the firm, that was very appealing to him. So he was going to have equity in the firm and much more freedom and control. And locally, by the way, the RIA was a really high quality brand. He worked on a lot of the economics, the short term and the long term with them. They did a ton of due diligence on his book of business. But he failed to ask … And I didn’t represent him. I just know this story. He failed to ask or do enough due diligence about the stability of the firm. What we think is really important, we talk about this expanded landscape. If you’re looking at Morgan Stanley, I don’t think you necessarily need to see Morgan Stanley’s balance sheet. If you are talking to a firm that is anything but a bulge bracket or anything but a large firm, it’s really important to do what we call reverse due diligence and to really understand if a firm expects you to open your kimono and show everything about your business to prove your worth, it is equally important that you do the same for them. In this new world order where private equity has come in and there are so many different ways for a firm to be owned and to be capitalized, it’s very important that an advisor understand what’s going on behind the scenes. And one of the questions around stability, if a firm is private equity backed, is it permanent capital? Is it patient capital? Is the private equity firm going to look to sell and monetize in five years? And then who would the likely buyer be and what does that mean for you? So the question is a big question and it’s really important. Jason Diamond: I love everything you just said, except I do think even the wirehouses, wirehouse advisors, honestly, as much as anybody should be asking these questions. And I’ll give you an example right now, UBS. And UBS, it’s not a story of balance sheet stability. I don’t think anybody has concerns that UBS is going to fail. But UBS management has been very publicly, “Oh, we’re cutting costs.” There’s been some rumors, I think for years, probably dating back 30 years to when you started the business about UBS’s commitment to the US wealth management business. I think those questions about stability and ownership structure are still valid. And to me, the implication of it is twofold. One, what you said, reverse due diligence, ask the questions, plan B. But also the concept of the exits or the off-ramps or how many bites of the apple do you get. So if you’re an advisor and you sell your business to somebody and you sign garden leave and non-competes and non-solicits, the question of ownership structure of that firm becomes less relevant because you have no off-ramps and no ability to exit that business anyway. A lot of times that’s how advisors get comfortable with this concept. And that’s what firms will tell them too, frankly, and we’re living through the middle of this, by the way, with Commonwealth and LPL, is vote with your feet, right? To the extent advisors can, the offer … And this is like, you used the example of private-equity-backed firms. This is how Rockefeller addresses the question of their private equity ownership. If we sell to UBS, all of our advisors will leave. They have that built-in put option. So knowing where the off-ramps are or how many bites of the apple an advisor gets, I think is a big concept that ties into that. But we’re absolutely seeing this pop up, probably largely because of those two examples, Commonwealth and UBS this year, more so Commonwealth, to your point. Janney’s another example last year or two years ago now where KKR comes in and buys Janney. So when these examples happen, it seems like it triggers advisors to say, “Is this something that could happen to me and should I be thinking about this?” Mindy Diamond: Yeah. So let me ask you a question. You’re talking, you’ve mentioned UBS offering this outsized deal. So how does the notion of stability and ownership factor in? If an advisor is considering an unprecedented deal from UBS, what are the caveats or concerns with respect to stability and ownership? Jason Diamond: It’s the same list of considerations you should and would ask of any other firm you’re diligencing, except I think amplified even more in the case … If I was counseling an advisor who was looking at UBS, that would be what I would say, is exactly that. You’re seeing all of these departures and defections, and I would want to have conversations with those advisors and understand exactly why and have guarantees or assurances that I’m not going to suffer from those same pain points that force them to leave. Or, and I say this a little bit flippantly, but it’s a little bit true, I understand the devil that I’m getting into bed with, but for 550%, or whatever the deal might be, I can suck it up. And that’s something that some advisors might well say as well. Mindy Diamond: Yeah. Jason Diamond: I don’t want to end on the negative note of overly large transition, not there’s anything wrong with large transition deals, but as you look out, is there anything that’s coming up in your conversation with advisors that you view as the next wave of this? I’ll give you one that maybe you could touch on, and if you have another one, feel free to offer it in conclusion, but do you think age or advisors starting to succeed out of the business will become more of a driver of movement, even though to your point, advisors can access sunset deals? Mindy Diamond: I do actually, because I think the more the average advisor age increases, the more likely that those advisors are going to want to move on to do something else to monetize the business. And so much of the wave of movement we see is driven not so much by the senior advisor, because many seed advisors are happy enough with the ability to monetize their business in place. Even though it may not maximize the value of the business, it’s a close enough approximation and it means I don’t have to disrupt the apple cart. So we support that 100%. But where we get the calls is from the next generation that says, “Yeah, but hold on a minute. It’s a good way for me to take on a book of assets that I not otherwise have access to. And it’s great for my senior partner, my father, my mother, my whatever to monetize the business. But I’m buying an asset again that I don’t own and I ultimately don’t have control over all these things we’re talking about, the AI investment, the ability to create enterprise value, the stability, the cost cutting, all of it.” So I think it’s all of the above. You say, “What else is there?” I think that’s it. It’s all of the above. It’s anything and everything that drives movement. One, it’s personal, it’s highly unique, it’s different for every advisor. There are certainly themes, and we’re talking about them, but there’s a million different things. It’s personal. And while there are an awful lot of pushes, things that can frustrate an advisor, it is the most exciting time in our view to be an advisor, particularly a high quality one, because the options abound, the ecosystem is big, because the ability to monetize both in the short term and the long term is big, mammoth, exponentially bigger than it ever was before. And the true ability to really build an enterprise has never been greater. And I think all of those things, the desire for an advisor to be the best that they can be and live their best business life is probably the biggest driver of all. Jason Diamond: It’s really true these days, if you can dream it, you can probably build it. And we’ve said in the past, if you build it, they will buy it. It’s a great place to end. This was a really fun topic. I think that’s a spot on kind of fourth trigger, by the way, too. This sort of next gen is almost like the force multiplier or the amplifier of like they see all this other stuff and they’re asking these questions even more so. Because if I’m 60 years old, none of this matters all that much. It matters, but I’m out of the business in five to 10 years. Versus the next gen advisors are the ones who often bear the brunt of this. So I think a lot of really smart stuff. Thank you for sharing your wisdom and expertise. In the episode page, we’ll be sure we have our Industry Transition Report. And we’ve also created a tool, the top 10 tips for a strategic due diligence process, which is a great kind of practical hand-in-hand companion for this topic for advisors looking for more pointed tips on the due diligence process. So Mindy, thank you again. This has been a blast. Mindy Diamond: My pleasure. Thank you. Jason Diamond: Thank you for joining us. We’ll be back with a new episode next week, so be sure to listen in. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

Jason Fertitta – CEO & Partner, Americana Partners Jason Fertitta shares how Americana Partners grew from a $2.6B breakaway team to a $13B+ enterprise by focusing on ownership, enterprise value, strategic acquisitions, and long-term growth. In Summary Many advisors view independence as the ultimate objective: a chance to gain control, improve economics, and build a business on their own terms. For Jason Fertitta, independence was only the beginning. Louis Diamond speaks with the CEO and Founding Partner of Americana Partners about the firm’s evolution from a $2.6 billion breakaway team in 2019 to a national enterprise managing more than $13 billion today. The conversation explores the decisions that fueled that growth, the mindset required to build long-term enterprise value, and why Jason believes advisors should evaluate success through the lens of net worth rather than annual income. Along the way, they discuss recruiting, acquisitions, private equity, professional management, and the tradeoffs that come with building something intended to outlast its founders. The Storyline The independent channel has matured. A decade ago, many advisors pursued independence primarily for greater autonomy, higher payouts, and control over the client experience. Today, a growing number are approaching the decision differently—viewing independence as a platform for building enterprise value, attracting capital, completing acquisitions, and creating businesses that can scale beyond the founders themselves. Jason Fertitta’s journey reflects that evolution. When he and his partners left Morgan Stanley in 2019, Americana launched with approximately $2.6B in client assets and a vision to build a nationally recognized wealth management firm. Seven years later, the firm oversees more than $13B, employs roughly 100 people, operates across multiple markets, has completed several acquisitions, and brought on Lovell Minnick Partners as its first institutional investor. Throughout the conversation, Jason offers a transparent look at the realities of enterprise building. That includes reinvesting profits rather than maximizing income, hiring professional management long before it feels necessary, embracing acquisitions as a growth strategy, and making decisions based on long-term value creation rather than short-term economics. For advisors considering what comes after independence, the episode provides a practical framework for thinking about ownership, scale, capital, and the future value of their business. About the Build, Grow & Transact Series for Advisors Build, Grow & Transact explores what happens after independence. The series features advisors and firm leaders who viewed independence not as a destination, but as the foundation for building something larger. Some launched firms from scratch. Others scaled through recruiting, acquisitions, or strategic partnerships. Many eventually faced decisions around capital, ownership, succession, or liquidity. While every story is different, they share a common thread: a willingness to think beyond the transition itself and focus on creating long-term enterprise value. Through candid conversations with founders, builders, and industry leaders, the series examines the decisions, tradeoffs, and lessons that come with growing an advisory business into an enduring enterprise. For advisors contemplating independence, actively building a firm, or considering what comes next, Build, Grow & Transact offers a look at the paths others have taken—and what they’ve learned along the way. > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why did Americana grow from $2.6 billion to more than $13 billion? (06:16)Jason explains how a combination of organic growth, advisor recruiting, acquisitions, and long-term strategic planning helped accelerate the firm’s expansion. Why do clients often do more business with independent advisors? (12:17)Jason shares his perspective on why clients frequently deepen relationships after an advisor leaves a wirehouse environment. What role have alternatives played in Americana’s growth strategy? (14:40)The discussion explores how differentiated investment access can help advisors stand apart in an increasingly commoditized marketplace. When is it time to build a professional management team? (18:36)Jason explains why Americana invested heavily in leadership, operations, and infrastructure from the very beginning. Why did Americana bring in private equity capital? (25:16)A candid discussion about growth capital, M&A opportunities, and the decision to partner with Lovell Minnick Partners. How do you evaluate enterprise value versus annual income? (20:16)Jason offers one of the episode’s most important lessons: building wealth through ownership can look very different than maximizing current compensation. What makes a successful acquisition target? (39:51)Jason outlines how Americana evaluates M&A opportunities and how acquisitions fit into the broader client experience. Is it better to build your own firm or join an existing platform? (45:40)The conversation closes with Jason’s perspective on the trade-offs between launching independently and joining a scaled independent enterprise. Topics Covered Enterprise value creation Independence and ownership Organic growth strategies Advisor recruiting RIA acquisitions Private equity partnerships Professional management teams Alternative investments Family office services Building a national wealth management firm Key Takeaways Independence can be a starting point for building an enterprise rather than the final objective. Long-term wealth creation often stems from ownership and equity appreciation, not from maximizing annual income. Reinvesting profits into leadership, infrastructure, and talent can accelerate enterprise value. Organic growth and acquisitions can complement one another when supported by a clear strategy. Outside capital can be a growth catalyst when aligned with management’s long-term vision. The most scalable firms are often built around client needs rather than predefined acquisition targets. Advisors have more options than ever before, ranging from building independently to joining established platforms. https://youtu.be/_12jZJFsi4U Quotable Moments “Even to this day, I don’t make anywhere near the amount of income that I made when I was on Wall Street. But my net worth is up tenfold.” “If you want to create value for yourself and your partners and grow your balance sheet, you can do it in a much more tax-efficient way in the independent world.” “I’ve never thought about how much of the company I own. I’ve thought about what my slice is worth.” “We want to build something our children would be proud to say we helped create.” FAQs Why are more advisors viewing independence as a business-building opportunity? The independent channel increasingly offers opportunities to create enterprise value, pursue acquisitions, attract capital, and build scalable businesses beyond a traditional advisory practice. How can advisors increase the enterprise value of their firms? Enterprise value is often driven by factors such as growth, profitability, leadership depth, recurring revenue, client demographics, infrastructure, and scalability. What role does private equity play in wealth management firms? Private equity can provide capital, strategic guidance, operational expertise, and acquisition support while helping firms accelerate growth initiatives. How do RIAs use acquisitions to grow? Many firms use acquisitions to expand geographically, add specialized capabilities, deepen client services, and accelerate asset growth. Why are professional management teams becoming more common among RIAs? As firms scale, dedicated leadership across operations, finance, compliance, and business management enables advisors to focus more effectively on clients and growth. Is launching an independent firm always the best path? Not necessarily. Some advisors prefer to build their own enterprise, while others may achieve their goals more effectively by joining an established independent platform that already provides scale and infrastructure. The independent channel increasingly offers opportunities to create enterprise value, pursue acquisitions, attract capital, and build scalable businesses beyond a traditional advisory practice. Enterprise value is often driven by factors such as growth, profitability, leadership depth, recurring revenue, client demographics, infrastructure, and scalability. Private equity can provide capital, strategic guidance, operational expertise, and acquisition support while helping firms accelerate growth initiatives. Many firms use acquisitions to expand geographically, add specialized capabilities, deepen client services, and accelerate asset growth. As firms scale, dedicated leadership across operations, finance, compliance, and business management enables advisors to focus more effectively on clients and growth. Not necessarily. Some advisors prefer to build their own enterprise, while others may achieve their goals more effectively by joining an established independent platform that already provides scale and infrastructure. Related Resources From Ex-Morgan Stanley Advisor to One of the Biggest Breakaway Stories of 2019 with Jason Fertitta (Podcast Episode) Intentional Growth: How Top Advisors Build Businesses That Last (Article) M&A Readiness Assessment (Tool) Guest Bio Jason Fertitta Jason is currently Chief Executive Officer / Founding Partner of Americana Partners. Jason was a Managing Director in Morgan Stanley’s Private Wealth Division for eleven years. He joined Morgan Stanley in 2008 after six years with Lehman Brothers High Net Worth Division. Prior to joining Lehman Brothers, Jason worked six years for Texas Direct. Jason serves on the Board of The Good Samaritan Foundation and Endowment and the Houston Museum of Natural Science. Jason attended St. Edwards University in Austin. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Build, Grow & Transact: Americana’s $12B Path from Breakaway to Enterprise A conversation with Louis Diamond and Jason Fertitta, CEO & Partner at Americana Partners.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: Americana’s $12B Path from Breakaway to Enterprise. It’s a conversation with Jason Fertitta, CEO and partner of Americana Partners. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for financial advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors, and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven, and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement, and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Independence is often viewed as the finish line. Break away, gain control, own the business, and enjoy the economics that come with it. But, for some advisors, going independent is just the beginning. That’s the idea behind this new series called Build, Grow, and Transact, featuring advisors who saw independence not as a destination, but as the first chapter of a business building story. And there will be some familiar names along the way, including our first guest who was on our show back in 2020, talking about what was at the time, one of the industry’s breakaway moves. That’s Jason Fertitta, CEO and founding partner of Americana Partners. When Jason and his partners left Morgan Stanley in 2019, they started Americana with approximately 2.6 billion in client assets, and a vision that extended well beyond becoming a successful independent firm. Today, Americana oversees more than 12 billion, has expanded nationally, completed multiple acquisitions, built out a professional management team, and brought on institutional capital to support its next phase of growth. What makes Jason’s perspective valuable that he’s now experienced independence through several different lenses as a breakaway advisor, as a founder, as a builder of enterprise value, and now as the leader of a firm, actively pursuing acquisitions and recruiting talent from across the industry. We talk about the decisions that fueled Americana’s growth, why Jason has always viewed the business through a long-term lens, what changed when private equity entered the picture, and why maximizing enterprise value often requires a very different mindset than maximizing current income. For advisors who think independence is a destination, Jason’s story offers a look at what can happen when it’s treated as a starting point instead, so let’s get to it. Jason, thanks for coming back on our show today. Jason Fertitta: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Louis Diamond: You got it. Yeah, you’re our first guest in our new subseries, so you should feel honored. And I’m honored too, because the last time we had you on the show, Americana was about a year old, you’re navigating COVID, and all those challenges. But, for listeners who may not remember the episode, can you give us a quick version of the origin story of Americana, and what the firm looked like when you first launched it? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, I believe if I’m remembering correctly, I was in Colorado talking to you guys, and it was right after we launched, so that was a fun but stressful time. I think at the time that we launched, it was certainly the road less traveled. Most teams go from one wirehouse to another. We had an entrepreneurial itch. There was 11 of us that started the firm. We actually launched the firm from this exact building that we’re in here, but all of this was under construction. We were in temporary space one floor below on card tables, and pizza boxes, and all the things that you can envision when you think of a startup. But, yeah, we weighed all of our options in terms of going from one firm to another, staying where we were, and had a lot of talks with ourselves, and our spouses, and they were all very supportive. When you do something like this, you’re certainly scratching the entrepreneurial itch that I think is required for somebody that wants to try and build their own company. And I think we’re all satisfying that itch in different ways. We all had a lot of other outside business interests. I’m passionate about the restaurant industry, because it’s what I grew up in as a kid. And so, had opened some restaurants with some chefs that I really admire, and were doing things like that to scratch the itch, but there’s no other way to do it than doing that in your profession. And so, we decided to launch the firm. We also just felt like Texas being such a wealthy state, there really wasn’t a regionally dominant RIA from here. There’s a lot of big RIAs in the Northeast, and the Northwest, and the West Coast. And we just felt like Texas was ready to hopefully be able to support the concept of launching it from the state, and then expanding it out regionally and nationally from here. Those are all thoughts in our heads and dreams and we’ve worked really hard to get to where we are, but I think we’re in a great spot right now for another leg of growth. Louis Diamond: Amazing. I would say that plan has certainly worked out. When you were on our show last in 2019, the firm was at about 2.6 billion at time of launch. And now, I saw in news articles and your ADV, it’s north of 12 billion, but I’m sure it’s even larger now. Can you walk through just what’s the makeup of the firm today? How many partners and advisors? What’s the profile of the end client? What markets are you in, in and around Texas or around the country? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, so today we’re roughly a hundred employees, right at 13 billion in AUM. I would say we have six offices, Houston, Austin, Dallas, Midland, Beverly Hills, and Nashville. We have about 30 advisors, 30 financial advisors, and our average account size I would say is right around $20 million. That’s not a rule, it’s just the way it is. We have some wonderful accounts that are two or three million, and we have some great accounts that are well over a billion. And in terms of the makeup of the firm, since the time we’ve spoken, and we’ll get into this later, but we have run in private equity, we have about nine families that are owners of the firm with us. It’s really families, private equity, and employees. That’s the cap table currently. Louis Diamond: Very cool. As far as building the firm geographically, for the offices of Texas, that makes sense to your earlier comment about wanting to build a Texas dominant or a regionally dominant firm. But, how’d you land in Beverly Hills and Nashville? That’s a little bit different. Jason Fertitta: Yeah, it is. I think so much of where we’re going is secondary to who we’re partnering with. I think we would go anywhere in the country if we had the right partner in that city. We’re not necessarily saying we have to be in Atlanta. Let’s find the right partners in Atlanta. It’s more about, we found the right partners in Atlanta, so we’re going to Atlanta. And you meet these people everywhere. Everyone has their own Rolodex inside of our firm. Sometimes it’s an employee here that has a relationship with someone that wants to break away and be part of an independent firm. Sometimes it’s me. There’s a lot of golf DNA in our firm, so we’ve met a ton of people through the incredible game of golf. In fact, last weekend we just hosted our first Americana Cub Golf Tournament where we took over an entire club, and invited 40 strategic invitations to people that could be helpful to our firm. I would say it’s really just networking, trying to find like-minded advisors that were very big at putting the client at the center of every decision you make. A lot of times you’ll come across of an advisor that financially looks really good on paper, but they’re maybe not always doing what’s right by the client. We run from those situations. We’d rather have a financial advisor that perhaps statistically is inferior to that other one on paper from a P&L perspective, but we feel like it’s doing what’s right by the client in the decisions. And that’s usually the main factor for us in seeking out the right partners. Louis Diamond: I love that. And one of the premises of this new subseries of ours is about growing, and then, of course, recognizing that value through some sort of monetization. To me, the star of your show is your insanely impressive growth, which I would assume comes from both organic means, and also from inorganic, whether through M&A, or recruiting teams from your predecessor firms, or from other wirehouses. Can you talk a little bit about the breakdown of the two growth channels, and how you pursue both, organic and then inorganic growth? Jason Fertitta: Yeah. Well, I think organic growth, the preference for anyone that’s in our sea, because you don’t have to pay for organic growth. It’s just you have to expose your platform to potential clients, and it has to be differentiated enough for them to move assets from another firm to yours. And I would tell you, I think we do a really good job at that. We’ve built an incredible platform that has, and enables a financial advisor to have all the same arrows in the quiver that a big firm has. We’ve got an incredible alts department. We’ve got an incredible CIO that produces great research. We got incredible in-house portfolio managers, both in the core equity space, but then also the municipal bond space. We have an incredible external manager platform that has everything from cash management on steroids, to venture capital investing, to co-investing, to direct investments into companies. We have this really great platform. We also recognize that we want to grow through M&A as well, because there’s only so much time in the day you’re not willing to add more employees and more like-minded advisors to grow. We do both, to your point, we absolutely do both, and they’re both equally as important. On the M&A side, I would say it’s been responsible for half of our AUM growth over the last seven years, and the other half has been organic. And I think as we get bigger and bigger, that number’s going to not stay consistent. I would say that if we could grow our AUM organically by 10% per year, and then do five to seven acquisitions a year, combination of RIAs and Wall Street lift outs, I think those are good goals for us, and we’re off to a good start in trying to achieve those goals. Louis Diamond: I think if you pull off even half of that, I think your private equity sponsors, and investors, and employees would be very happy. Can we double click into the organic growth side? How do you view whether your growth rate changing organically since leaving Morgan to start the RIA? And if it has changed, what do you think are the things that are responsible for the faster growth, or slower growth if it’s slower than when you’re at Morgan? Jason Fertitta: One of the interesting secrets about being independent versus inside of a big bank is I think your clients will actually do more business with you if you’re independent. I didn’t realize that until we went independent. I had heard that before, but I was like, that may or may not be true. But, when we went independent, and every time we recruit a team from a big bank, the same thing happens. It’s like the clients are like, “What took you so long?” They’ve very much, for the most part … Now, that’s not every client, but most clients, I think prefer to be serviced by an advisor that’s conflict bringing the independent channel. There are other clients that might have a big investment banking relationship with a big bank, or something like that, like a business reason for not leaving. But, in terms of just being able to service the client from an independent channel where you’re a legal fiduciary, I think all the interest is aligned from client to service provider, and I just think it’s easier to raise money in this channel than it is at a bank. Louis Diamond: And you really think the types of clients you work with or just clients in general, the difference maker is really the conflict-free advice. Obviously, it sounds good, but I would argue that when you were at Morgan Stanley, your team was one of the top teams in the country, you had an amazing reputation, you’re probably giving similar quality advice then than you were today. How has that really manifested itself? Jason Fertitta: I always say I think you can have a great experience at a firm that is perhaps not the most prestigious, great firm in the country if you’re with the right team. And I think you can also have a horrible experience at a firm with a great reputation if you’re with the wrong team. It is my belief the most important thing from the customer’s perspective is who you’re working with. I appreciate your comments about our team, and we work very hard to deserve the reputation that you’re talking about. But, I also think that when you’re in the independent world, some of the things the banks do very well is they have great investment platforms, and a lot of due diligence in their products. I think when you’re an independent firm, you’re obviously, you don’t immediately have all of those same intangibles that a big bank has. I think it was very important for us to invest heavily into those departments inside of our firm to where we could be on some equal footing with Wall Street firms, and we have been. We have raised a lot of money for alternative managers. I think alternatives are a huge secret sauce that an independent advisor needs to have access to, because in a world where the public markets are getting more efficient and more commoditized, it’s very challenging to grow organically the way that we have without some secret sauce. And I think the secret sauce lies within the alternatives, because it’s very hard to differentiate yourself if you’re just trying to optimize someone’s public equity portfolio, and improve where they sit on the efficient frontier. I think that’s just a tough challenge. But, if you can mix in some truly differentiated alternatives where access is a big component of the value proposition, then all of a sudden, you’re bringing your clients something special, and something that’s unique. Louis Diamond: I really like that perspective. I think you’re completely right. I’ve always heard people say investments are commoditized, and it’s all about advice and planning, but I think the way you framed it about the ALFA essentially being worked out of it, so it’s the access, and it’s what you’re doing different on the investment side outside of the more basic or commoditized stuff that’s a difference maker. When you launched the firm, and I believe still today, Americana hired Dynasty Financial Partners as your infrastructure partner. Now that you’re significantly larger, you’re seven years into your independent journey, how does the relationship with Dynasty change, if at all? What do they do for you that you benefit from differently today than when you first launched? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, it would’ve been impossible for us to do what we did without Dynasty’s help. Dynasty has delivered for us in a meaningful way and they continue to. They’re a great partner. We definitely are developing our own sea legs as well, just because you have to just by virtue of the size that you get to. But, Dynasty, I think, has been incredibly innovative in terms of launching an investment bank and bringing … Dynasty’s brought us deals, which is incredible. Just in addition to being an infrastructure partner, they’ve actually provided us deal flow. They’re also, because they’re working with so many firms, you get in all sorts of situations as an independent firm, and to have someone to pick up the phone and say, “Here’s what we’re dealing with.” And they’ll say, “Oh, here are the three things you need to do. You either need to do it like this or this.” Just a lot of experience within Dynasty. I don’t know if we’re Dynasty’s biggest client or not, but I would say we’re certainly in their top three. We are looking to continue that relationship, and always having a relationship with Dynasty, but I would describe it as evolving, because our revenue is up 6X in the last six years. Louis Diamond: Amazing. That makes complete sense. The needs of the business when you are leaving a big firm is got to get the clients over, got to build the plane before it can fly, and understand how to do X, Y, and Z, to now, it’s enterprise building, and optimizing, and growing inorganically, so that makes complete sense, and very cool to hear that Dynasty has evolved or morphed the relationship to meet you where you are now. And to me, I think a big part of that is hiring professional management. That’s always a question we get. When am I big enough? When’s the right time to hire professional management, whether it’s a full-time CEO, a CFO, a COO, et cetera. I know in your case, fairly early on you hired Ron Thacker who was a regional manager from Morgan Stanley. I saw recently you hired a CFO, so you’re really professionalizing the leadership ranks. When did you know it was the right time to build a professional management team, and how did you think about that evolution? Jason Fertitta: We knew from day one that’s what we wanted to do. I think when you go independent, there’s a couple of different schools of thought. One school of thought is I can go independent. I’m not going to really have a boss. I’ll be my own boss. I may or may not grow the business. I’m going to run it in a way that’s lean. I might be able to have a little bit more of a take home because there’s not a third hand in the cookie jar in terms of the bank, and it’s a great lifestyle. I think that’s one school of thought and I think that’s great. That was not our school of thought. Our school of thought is we had a belief that in this country, there’s going to emerge five to 10 regionally dominant RIAs, and these regionally dominant RIAs were going to enjoy economies of scale, and they were going to compete with Wall Street. And in order to do that, we had to reinvest a lot of our profit into our business through building this management team that you’re referencing. Even to this day, I don’t make anywhere near the amount of income that I made when I was on Wall Street, but I’m not, and it’s because we’re building equity value, and we’re building something that will last, and we reinvest a lot of our cash flow into professionalizing the management team, and then being able to deliver on that promise to the financial advisors that are here that you’re going to have a platform, that when you walk in the room, you’re going to be able to compete with Wall Street. And so, that’s always been our goal, which is not necessarily everybody’s goal when they go independent, because it’s a lifestyle decision really. I work way harder today than I worked when I was at a Wall Street firm. Louis Diamond: It’s so interesting. Two threads I want to tug on from what you said. The first one is I think just the comment you made that you’re making less today when the business is significantly larger than it was when you’re at Morgan Stanley, you’re working harder. I think even that dynamic is going to feel like a shock to a lot of people, right? If you’re working harder, the business is doing six times more revenue than it was at Morgan Stanley, that doesn’t seem like a fair trade. How do you think about that relative to the equity value that you’re amassing? Was that always the plan, or is that just something you’ve leaned into as the firm has grown and scaled? Jason Fertitta: Well, the third component you left out is my net worth is up 10X- Louis Diamond: There you go. Jason Fertitta: … whereas if I would’ve stayed at a Wall Street firm, and so are all the employees here. If it’s about that, I can tell you that we checked that box. Americana is very valuable, and we’re happy about that. It’s really just about how you want to create that, right? If you want to create it through income, and pay a lot of taxes along the way, stay at the Wall Street firm. But, if you want to create value for yourself and your partners, and grow your balance sheet, you can do it in a much more tax efficient way in the independent world. And I’m light years ahead of where I would’ve been if I would’ve stayed at a Wall Street firm. Louis Diamond: I think that’s the coolest realization I think someone can have, right? We always say it’s like, what do you value more? Is it the short-term liquidity, or certainty of getting a big upfront recruiting deal at ordinary income, or staying where you are and keep making your 50% payout, take advantage of your firm’s retire in place program? And for many people, that’s what they value. But, for you, I think you very clearly and transparently articulated that, yeah, I might make less, but what really matters is my net worth. It’s how much I’m actually netting for my family in the long run. For people who want to play the long game, really buy into that concept, it sounds like following your path would be ideal, but it may not be for everyone. Jason Fertitta: It’s a much better path, and I’m living proof of it, and not only am I living proof of it, all of my partners are here, and everybody that owns equity in Americana is living proof of it. Louis Diamond: Amazing. You said you’re working more now than when you’re at Morgan. How has your day-to-day, or day in the life changed? What types of activities are you doing more or less of, and how do you balance everything? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, it’s hard to balance everything, it is. But, I would say that one of the unique things about Americana is the founders are all financial advisors. We aren’t consultants that came out of the consulting world, we’re financial advisors. I’m still a financial advisor. I still cover clients. I would say a third of my time is actually covering the house accounts here with some of my original partners. A third of my time is firm related stuff, and then, a third of my time is M&A, and that’s not only M&A, but helping the advisors that are here grow their business also. And so, I come across a lot of leads and opportunities. I’m not really taking them for the house account book or myself. I’m finding the right advisors that I feel I could service the clients the best, and then I’m flipping them to them and sitting second chair and I’ve seen some amazing growth to their businesses by just being able to send them leads. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I think that’s always like the tug of war for … I think most founders of RIAs in this industry, they were advisors themselves. They were the rainmakers, or they still are, but there’s definitely some folks who, whether because of lack of time, or lose the spark or passion for working with clients, that they pivot to being full-time CEO, or we’ve even seen people go the other way where they say, “I was the CEO. I really just want to be an advisor, or just do M&A, and I’m going to hire a CEO.” It’s really cool to hear how you split up your time, and you’re able to do it all. And I’m sure it’s not perfect. I’m sure your family wishes they saw you more, and et cetera, but it sounds like you’re able to really pursue your different passions. Jason Fertitta: All those three activities are very fun, and they keep everyday interesting, and you don’t necessarily know at what points in the day you’re going to be working on which bucket, and there’s a lot of blend and overlap, but we spend a lot of time here working on behalf of our clients, and the firm, and every day is an adventure, but it’s fun. It’s a blast. Louis Diamond: Absolutely. Well, let’s spend some time talking about your fairly recent capital raise. In October of 2024, Americana announced that PE firm Lovell Minnick Partners, the firm’s first outside institutional investor was coming in to take a majority stake in the firm. Can you take us back to that decision? I’m sure it’s still clearly vivid. Maybe talk through it, and when did you first start to think seriously about bringing in capital? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, so probably at the end of ’23, we looked down, and there was $100 million worth of potential M&A that was fairly actionable that we could do. And the other M&A events we did were small deals, 10, $20 million sometimes, but firms with three, 400 in AUM to 600 million in AUM. We were doing deals that size, and we’re just passing the hat, and saying, okay, to the families that were in our cap table and to ourselves, who wants to write a check? The cap table was changing all the time based on people’s buy-in and M&A transaction. But then, when you sit down, and you look at potentially $100 million of M&A, if every deal came through that you’re in conversations around, and we owned at the time 75% of the firm, the families owned 25. If all of that M&A were to have happened, we didn’t have $75 million as employees. We were facing dilution. And then, we went to the families and said, “Hey, we don’t mind being diluted, but we got to know that if all of these came through, you guys want to invest another 100 million into this business.” And that’s when they said, “Well, we can. All the deals that you’ve done so far have been accretive and great. But, our value add to you is not M&A. It’s not underwriting. It’s not how to take this firm from four billion to 12 billion or customers. Why don’t you contemplate bringing in an institutional partner to help you round first base and go to second and third?” And so, I called a good friend, a gentleman by the name of Jimmy Dunne, who’s legendary in the world of golf and business. He’s a vice chair at Piper Sandler. I explained the situation, and he said, “Well, this is going to sound self-serving, but I think you should hire me and my firm to run a process to find your partner.” Louis Diamond: Classic investment banker. Jason Fertitta: And we did, and he worked on a very small retainer, and a contingency fee, and they helped us get ready to show the firm to the institutional world, and that took nine to 12 months of hard work to get ready. They ran the process. I think we had 30 firms sign the NDA in the October of ’24 month that you mentioned. I think we had 20 offers. And during that year, we were getting to know a lot of the people that were going to be bidding on us, and we frankly were incredibly impressed by Lovell Minnick and their success that they have had in investing in the wealth space. We were always pulling for Lovell Minnick to compete and compete well, got to run an honest process and Lovell Minnick was not the high bid, but they were a very good and well-thought-out bid that was easy for us to understand on why they were where they were. And for us, it was about how can we create value from this point forward with the right partner to really grow the firm and scale it to where we wanted it to be? And so, that was the more important driving factor in our decision to sell to Lovell Minnick. Now, of course, we wanted to sell a minority piece, but the reality is, given the activity that we had in our M&A pipeline at the time, they were going to eventually get to majority anyway. And so, I may be skipping ahead a little bit in the podcast, but I know what some of the questions are going to contemplate, and our thought was, you’re in a better position to negotiate minority rights before the transaction than later. And so, we got all of that out on the table in our negotiations with our private equity partner, and then just got married immediately instead of had this weird period of where they ultimately were going to get to majority control through M&A, and then, you have this awkward moment where that shift happens after you’re already partners. Louis Diamond: Very interesting. Was it a hard decision to give up majority control over your baby? Jason Fertitta: Definitely a lot of self-reflecting on behalf of our team and everything, but I think where we came out with it, and I’m a big believer in this, is the people that really control the business are the people that control the relationships with the clients. Lovell Minnick knows that, and we’ve never had a decision in a year and a half that we don’t all arrive at the same place. We negotiate, we study, but they know that it’s not in their best interest to try and force the management team to do something that the management team is not in agreement on, because at the end of the day, we’re servicing all of these accounts. Look, we don’t see eye to eye exactly on everything, no partners do. But, we’re generally in the same zip code on everything, and we talk things through until we all arrive at the same place that this is in the best interest of the company. And I think a big part of why that works so well for us in Lovell Minnick, and I think this is very unique in the industry, it all goes back to we all own the same share class. We’re all in the foxhole together. We all sink or swim together. There’s no way one group can win and another group can lose. We all own the exact same security. Not only do we all own the exact same security, but our employees own it. The families that are in our cap table own it. And so, every decision comes from the standpoint of how do we make decisions to benefit that security? Louis Diamond: Makes sense. It’s still a tough decision, but you lay it out, make it seem like an easy decision with the conviction you have, I think the very pure motivation to make that leap. Aside from capital to fuel M&A, what are the other things that Lovell Minnick is doing for your business to help it? Jason Fertitta: Well, Lovell Minnick, and this is another thing that was impressive to us, they’re always the first institutional capital until what’s otherwise an entrepreneurial family-owned business. They’re not afraid of building the things that you have to build to get ready to scale. They’ve seen it in every investment they’ve made. And so, that was very refreshing to us, because frankly, we wanted the help. We wanted the expertise. We’re financial advisors at heart. Like a lot of private equity firms, LMP has this third party advisory relationships with industry people, and they’ve brought those people into our firm, several sit on the board of the firm today, and they’ve just been fantastic to work with. Some have more experience with FinTech, some have more experience with HR, some have more experience with actual investment platforms and product. Some have more experience in how to help clients optimize from a tax perspective. Some have family office experience. And so, we’ve really benefited from this group of people. And I would tell you that, since they came into our world, which is about 18 months ago, we have been building a lot of things that are about to be unveiled to not only our financial advisors, but our clients. And I think that the experience is just going to continue to get better for both of those segments. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Yeah, it seems like a great fit. And I meant to ask you before, because it’s such a cool, and I think still a fairly novel concept, but what was the thinking behind having nine families, their customers or clients come in, and buy some equity in the firm? Why’d you do that? And then what’s been the outcome of that? Jason Fertitta: It was more their idea than us after we launched the firm. And this goes back to my original comments about the clients want to do more business with you when you’re independent than when you’re inside the bank. And we have a lot of clients that are entrepreneurial. And so, I think when we explained to them the reasons why we were doing this, and the reasons why we’re so excited about it, they got excited about it too, some clients, most clients. And so, what they said was, “Yeah, we’re going to move our money to it, we’re excited about it, but if there’s an opportunity, we’d also like to own a piece of the firm.” And originally, when they said that, I didn’t know if they meant that they wanted us to give them, but they wrote a check. They all wrote checks. We set an arbitrary value of the firm in the first year after we launched it. And that wasn’t a whole lot of science behind the value. It’s basically what we would’ve been paid by walking across the street, and that was the original value. And they bought into the firm, and then, Lovell Minnick really thought it was a nice novel concept that they hadn’t seen before, and they’ve embraced it. When they invested, we brought another round of clients into the firm at that valuation. I think it’s really powerful, because what’s important for us in these families is that they’re all pillars of their respective communities and they’re spread across all over the country and Mexico. We have some incredibly good reputation, great business people in Mexico City, and Monterrey, and Los Angeles, and Midland, and Dallas, and Austin, and Houston. And we’re open to the concept of when we come into new markets, finding that pillar of the community, finding that family who people ask, “Well, what do you do with your money?” We want them to say, “Well, we own our own wealth management firm. He wants to have them call you and they’ll show you what we do with our money.” And that’s a powerful part of the organic growth and the flywheel. Louis Diamond: I absolutely love that. I oftentimes have clients, especially breakaway clients talk about how cool it would be to have a client or set of clients invest in their business. But, the reasons why, I love that as part of a very consistent, repeatable strategy of identifying key influencers essentially in different markets, and then having them come into the cap table. I would assume too, the dynamic of, “Oh, you should call Jason, he’s my financial advisor, he’s great,” to, “Hey, you should come in and meet my firm.” And I feel like clients are probably much more incentivized naturally to refer friends, family, et cetera. And just the power and dynamic of that referral is probably that much better than a referral from another happy customer who’s not an investor. Jason Fertitta: Exactly. When we’re looking at coming into a new city with a new partner, to the extent they have those clients in that community, and when they join us, we have a private equity partner that embraces that strategy and concept. When we’re talking to that Wall Street advisor, and they’re interested in our business model and our plan, I think that particular part of our business model is very differentiated and intriguing to them. Louis Diamond: Amazing. You mentioned in your last answer that you have, it sounds like you have some investors in Mexico, and that you’re serving families in Mexico and Latin America as well. Can you talk about adding that capability or the openness to go international? That’s clearly a big decision. It’s a different risk profile, different client needs. What was the thought process behind taking Americana, I guess, still in the Americas, but outside of America? Jason Fertitta: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of it is growing up in Texas, there’s a lot of wonderful families from Mexico whose kids and grandkids have moved here, and our children are going to school with their children, and they’re part of our community, and I think they’re a great part of our community. And so, I just started to notice how Wall Street treated this community as just one, right? And what we were able to do is cherry-pick a few families that we knew very well that are incredibly good reputations in the cities that they’re from, and their origins are from. And there’s a high desire on behalf of not only those families, but their friends to invest into the United States into our economy. And given that a lot of their children and grandchildren live in the US, these are families that have citizens and their family inside of the US and back home in Mexico. Most of these families, they’ve been going to our colleges. A lot of these families sit on the boards of Fortune 500 companies inside of the United States. These are families that are very easy to do due diligence on, and frankly, we have learned a lot from them. They’re very sophisticated families, and so, they’ve been amazing partners, and we use Bank of New York Pershing to custody a lot of these assets, and I think they’re increasingly becoming more interested in alternatives as part of their portfolios, because I think going back 15, 20 years ago, these families were mostly stocks, bonds, and cash. But, as they continue to build out their own family offices, they’re becoming more sophisticated and interested in alternatives, so it’s really been an exciting part of our firm. Louis Diamond: Did this expansion, does it scratch the itch to go into different Latin American countries in Europe and Asia, or is that not really part of the roadmap? Jason Fertitta: Well, it’s open to the concept. Like I said, the genesis of this for us was the fact that our children go to school with their children, and we got to know several families just through our social circles here in Texas. But, I don’t think that same phenomenon would exist in Europe, other Latin American countries per se, but we’re certainly open to it, and there’s a lot going on in Latin America. There’s a lot going on and a lot of potential, so we’re open to anything that increases the footprint in the right way for Americana. Louis Diamond: Great answer. Let’s go back a little bit to talk a little bit more about your M&A strategy. You merged with or acquired Boulevard Family Wealth, which was Matt Celenza’s firm. I think Matt was the first breakaway guest on our show, and an amazing advisor. You bought Goodpasture Gray in Nashville, and more recently you bought NRT Consulting. I think from my read, three different types of firms, different geographies. How do you think about the M&A strategy? Jason Fertitta: I feel like we’re building out a firm and departments in the firm, and each of those acquisitions goes into a different department of our firm. I think Matt Celenza and Boulevard are fantastic, and they’re really good at tax optimization strategies for families, and they’re really innovative there. That is a very hot topic with all of our clients. More and more families are getting smart about the fact that not only does it matter what your returns look like. What really matters is how much of those returns you get to keep. And so, Matt and his team are incredibly sophisticated and cutting edge on tax optimization, and that’s proliferating throughout our firm right now, which is I think making us even better at what we can advise and provide to our clients. I would say that’s more in the family office service and tax planning part of our firm. Goodpasture Gray’s fantastic. WL who runs that firm, or did prior to the merger, I’ve known him for 30 years. He’s a longtime family friend. His clients are in Nashville, Santa Fe, and Texas. He and my father actually used to office together. And then, ironically, he hired Dynasty to represent him to find the right partner. That’s an example where full circle Dynasty brought him back and I hadn’t talked to him for decades, but we shared a bunch of fun stories about how I used to go up in college, and hang out with he and my dad in their office. That was a great full circle experience, but WL’s just a fantastic financial advisor that does what we’ve always done. He’s just a natural fit inside of our firm. And then NRT, Chris Ginsbach and his team, they’re unbelievable. They do bookkeeping services for families. They’re not signing tax returns, but the more sophisticated these families get, some of these families have 35, to 45, to 55 different LLCs that require bookkeeping services. He’s an accountant by training, so is everyone that works there. And I think that there’s a lot of cross-pollinating with our client base that wants bookkeeping services for their needs. With all of these different M&A events, it’s trying to meet or have the ability to meet your client at wherever their pain points are. And some of your client’s pain points are in bookkeeping and accounting. Some are in tax optimization, and some are just good old-fashioned financial advice and access. And all three of those acquisitions that you described are meeting that client in a different pain point, but they’re all pain points, and they’re all important. Louis Diamond: When you’re thinking about M&A, is it like you have, these are the three areas that we want to add to the firm? Next one, making it up, we want to add tax preparation. Are you then going out to find a firm that fits the bill, or is it more so just you’re selective with who you take on, and you look for a new capability, or just like an extreme alignment with how you’re already serving clients, and then, that’s what makes a compelling deal for you? Jason Fertitta: Yeah. Most of the time, we’re getting feedback from our clients on where they need help, and that is usually the spark that starts the fire on, okay, what if we added this? It’s really I would say more based on client feedback. We don’t have estate planning attorneys inside of Americana per se. We don’t have accountants that are signing people’s tax returns inside of Americana. We get a lot of interesting opportunities from accounting firms and estate planning firms. And so, I like how we have this great referral network in place with those industries. And so, I think we’d have to think long and hard about getting into those businesses per se. Louis Diamond: Makes sense. I feel like there’s probably a version of this story, your story, where you break away, you plot along, you’re happy to not have a boss anymore, clients are happy, maybe you get to like four or five billion in assets, and you call it a win, and just throw in coast mode, but clearly you didn’t do that. You went the opposite direction. What do you think drove the ambition to keep building towards something larger? What’s really sparking you and motivating you today maybe differently, or in a more defined way than it was when you first broke? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, I would say it’s not just me, it’s all the founders, and I think all the employees. I share this and not to sound corny about it. I think everyone here wants to try and build something that his or her children would say, “My parent was one of the founders and employees of Americana Partners.” It’s like, I think when you work at a bank, you definitely care about your brand that you’re building, but this is a whole next level of care about your brand. We really care about this brand, and we want it to outlast all of us. Louis Diamond: Love that. For a successful wirehouse advisor or team that’s sitting on a really nice practice maybe similar in size or in the same realm that you had back where you were in that world, and they’re thinking about maximizing their value, what advice would you offer? Do you think your story is an outlier, or do you think it’s doable by others if they follow certain advice or principles? Jason Fertitta: I would have a two-word answer. Call us. I’m kidding. I have a much longer answer. One of the things I really respected about a certain advisor, and if he’s listening to this, he’ll know exactly who he is, but I feel awkward saying his name. When I was contemplating going independent, I talked to an entrepreneur I really admire, and I called him, and I said, “Hey, we’re thinking about doing this.” And he said, “Look, I’m going to try and convince you to join our firm, and if you don’t end up doing that, it’s fine. There’ll be no hard feelings, because we ended up launching our own firm and I would never fault you for the decision if you wanted to do that with your team.” And we thought long and hard, we almost joined his firm. It was in a very different geography so we ended up launching our own firm. I would say that if you want to do it yourself, we would respond the same way. We would give you a high five, and wish you well, and say you’ve made a great decision, and we’d be pulling for you. If you want to spend more time with your clients, and less time in building the firm, we have the firm built, and it’s fantastic, and it wasn’t without blood, sweat and tears for seven years, and we can create a transaction that is economically the same or better as launching your own firm, and you have a voice, and you have a seat at the table, because we’re still small enough to where you can help shape the direction of this firm, and we want your input. The difference is that instead of spending a third of your time interacting with financial advisors the way I do, you could spend 90% of your time interacting with your clients, instead of a third, and be part of a firm that I think has great national prospects. But, I would never fault someone for doing it themselves, because that’s what we did, and that would be hypocritical. But, I really do think that this is a better path, even if you did it yourself, or if you did it with someone like us. I think you’re choosing two better options than what you currently have. Louis Diamond: I think it’s a great perspective, and I think it’s balanced and fair too. There’s plenty of people that I speak to where their passion is building. They want to be the next Americana, right? That’s what’s going to spark them and get them out of bed. They want to do M&A, they want to be the CEO, they want to really make their mark on the industry, and that’s fine. But, I do think there’s probably more advisors out there that would love to be part of something, and they’d love equity, and they’re passionate about different things than you were passionate about when you launched the firm. And the theory of a rising tide lifts all boats, it’s like, you can do this yourself or let’s just build something bigger and better together. And just getting comfortable with the theory of you’ll own a smaller piece of the pie, but the pie is much more valuable than owning 100% or 80% of something that’s less valuable, and is going to take you in a different direction personally. I always say we’re not in the business of making judgments for people. It’s up to them to define their goals, and then, we’ll help them execute on it. But, I really like that perspective. I agree, it’s not for everyone. What you did is extremely hard, it’s a risk, it’s a big swing. But, if you have the stomach for it, and you want to take the swing, to me there’s no better time to pursue that path than today. Jason Fertitta: I agree. And I could totally see a world over the next five years where some of these advisors that join us are bigger shareholders in this firm than me, and that would be great. Louis Diamond: Interesting. Jason Fertitta: I’m with you, not only do I agree with what you’re saying, to me, I’ve never thought about how much of this company do I own? I’ve thought about what is the percentage of the company that I own, and what is it worth? I could care less if it was 25%, 12.5%, 5%. What I care is, what is that slice worth? Louis Diamond: That’s a fun way to look at it. Jason, this has been really fun. This new series Build, Grow, and Transact, this is proof of concept, but we’re going to have to do a ton of these, because the richness of detail, and whenever we have breakaway guests, we’re talking to them in the beginning when they’re still finding their feet, everything’s new and fresh. They haven’t thought about or executed on M&A and taking on capital partners. But, I feel like this is the missing ingredient where it’s a playbook for how others can be better themselves, something to shoot towards. And I really appreciate your candor and transparency, and I’m very serious, we’ll have to do this again when you’re at 25 billion, and you have even more lessons, and I’m sure battle scars to share. Jason Fertitta: No doubt. I’m for sure open to doing that. And maybe in the meantime, I see the pictures behind your head there. I’d love to come visit you in Park City and hang out and ski, or play golf, or- Louis Diamond: You got it. Jason Fertitta: All right. Thanks for your time and thank you for having me. Louis Diamond: Thanks, Jason. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful, because you take your professional responsibility seriously, and are dedicated to your clients, but are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms, or could a better option exist? Should I Stay Or Should I Go is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions, and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Build, Grow & Transact: Americana’s $12B Path from Breakaway to Enterprise A conversation with Louis Diamond and Jason Fertitta, CEO & Partner at Americana Partners.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Build, Grow & Transact: Americana’s $12B Path from Breakaway to Enterprise. It’s a conversation with Jason Fertitta, CEO and partner of Americana Partners. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for financial advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors, and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven, and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement, and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Independence is often viewed as the finish line. Break away, gain control, own the business, and enjoy the economics that come with it. But, for some advisors, going independent is just the beginning. That’s the idea behind this new series called Build, Grow, and Transact, featuring advisors who saw independence not as a destination, but as the first chapter of a business building story. And there will be some familiar names along the way, including our first guest who was on our show back in 2020, talking about what was at the time, one of the industry’s breakaway moves. That’s Jason Fertitta, CEO and founding partner of Americana Partners. When Jason and his partners left Morgan Stanley in 2019, they started Americana with approximately 2.6 billion in client assets, and a vision that extended well beyond becoming a successful independent firm. Today, Americana oversees more than 12 billion, has expanded nationally, completed multiple acquisitions, built out a professional management team, and brought on institutional capital to support its next phase of growth. What makes Jason’s perspective valuable that he’s now experienced independence through several different lenses as a breakaway advisor, as a founder, as a builder of enterprise value, and now as the leader of a firm, actively pursuing acquisitions and recruiting talent from across the industry. We talk about the decisions that fueled Americana’s growth, why Jason has always viewed the business through a long-term lens, what changed when private equity entered the picture, and why maximizing enterprise value often requires a very different mindset than maximizing current income. For advisors who think independence is a destination, Jason’s story offers a look at what can happen when it’s treated as a starting point instead, so let’s get to it. Jason, thanks for coming back on our show today. Jason Fertitta: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Louis Diamond: You got it. Yeah, you’re our first guest in our new subseries, so you should feel honored. And I’m honored too, because the last time we had you on the show, Americana was about a year old, you’re navigating COVID, and all those challenges. But, for listeners who may not remember the episode, can you give us a quick version of the origin story of Americana, and what the firm looked like when you first launched it? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, I believe if I’m remembering correctly, I was in Colorado talking to you guys, and it was right after we launched, so that was a fun but stressful time. I think at the time that we launched, it was certainly the road less traveled. Most teams go from one wirehouse to another. We had an entrepreneurial itch. There was 11 of us that started the firm. We actually launched the firm from this exact building that we’re in here, but all of this was under construction. We were in temporary space one floor below on card tables, and pizza boxes, and all the things that you can envision when you think of a startup. But, yeah, we weighed all of our options in terms of going from one firm to another, staying where we were, and had a lot of talks with ourselves, and our spouses, and they were all very supportive. When you do something like this, you’re certainly scratching the entrepreneurial itch that I think is required for somebody that wants to try and build their own company. And I think we’re all satisfying that itch in different ways. We all had a lot of other outside business interests. I’m passionate about the restaurant industry, because it’s what I grew up in as a kid. And so, had opened some restaurants with some chefs that I really admire, and were doing things like that to scratch the itch, but there’s no other way to do it than doing that in your profession. And so, we decided to launch the firm. We also just felt like Texas being such a wealthy state, there really wasn’t a regionally dominant RIA from here. There’s a lot of big RIAs in the Northeast, and the Northwest, and the West Coast. And we just felt like Texas was ready to hopefully be able to support the concept of launching it from the state, and then expanding it out regionally and nationally from here. Those are all thoughts in our heads and dreams and we’ve worked really hard to get to where we are, but I think we’re in a great spot right now for another leg of growth. Louis Diamond: Amazing. I would say that plan has certainly worked out. When you were on our show last in 2019, the firm was at about 2.6 billion at time of launch. And now, I saw in news articles and your ADV, it’s north of 12 billion, but I’m sure it’s even larger now. Can you walk through just what’s the makeup of the firm today? How many partners and advisors? What’s the profile of the end client? What markets are you in, in and around Texas or around the country? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, so today we’re roughly a hundred employees, right at 13 billion in AUM. I would say we have six offices, Houston, Austin, Dallas, Midland, Beverly Hills, and Nashville. We have about 30 advisors, 30 financial advisors, and our average account size I would say is right around $20 million. That’s not a rule, it’s just the way it is. We have some wonderful accounts that are two or three million, and we have some great accounts that are well over a billion. And in terms of the makeup of the firm, since the time we’ve spoken, and we’ll get into this later, but we have run in private equity, we have about nine families that are owners of the firm with us. It’s really families, private equity, and employees. That’s the cap table currently. Louis Diamond: Very cool. As far as building the firm geographically, for the offices of Texas, that makes sense to your earlier comment about wanting to build a Texas dominant or a regionally dominant firm. But, how’d you land in Beverly Hills and Nashville? That’s a little bit different. Jason Fertitta: Yeah, it is. I think so much of where we’re going is secondary to who we’re partnering with. I think we would go anywhere in the country if we had the right partner in that city. We’re not necessarily saying we have to be in Atlanta. Let’s find the right partners in Atlanta. It’s more about, we found the right partners in Atlanta, so we’re going to Atlanta. And you meet these people everywhere. Everyone has their own Rolodex inside of our firm. Sometimes it’s an employee here that has a relationship with someone that wants to break away and be part of an independent firm. Sometimes it’s me. There’s a lot of golf DNA in our firm, so we’ve met a ton of people through the incredible game of golf. In fact, last weekend we just hosted our first Americana Cub Golf Tournament where we took over an entire club, and invited 40 strategic invitations to people that could be helpful to our firm. I would say it’s really just networking, trying to find like-minded advisors that were very big at putting the client at the center of every decision you make. A lot of times you’ll come across of an advisor that financially looks really good on paper, but they’re maybe not always doing what’s right by the client. We run from those situations. We’d rather have a financial advisor that perhaps statistically is inferior to that other one on paper from a P&L perspective, but we feel like it’s doing what’s right by the client in the decisions. And that’s usually the main factor for us in seeking out the right partners. Louis Diamond: I love that. And one of the premises of this new subseries of ours is about growing, and then, of course, recognizing that value through some sort of monetization. To me, the star of your show is your insanely impressive growth, which I would assume comes from both organic means, and also from inorganic, whether through M&A, or recruiting teams from your predecessor firms, or from other wirehouses. Can you talk a little bit about the breakdown of the two growth channels, and how you pursue both, organic and then inorganic growth? Jason Fertitta: Yeah. Well, I think organic growth, the preference for anyone that’s in our sea, because you don’t have to pay for organic growth. It’s just you have to expose your platform to potential clients, and it has to be differentiated enough for them to move assets from another firm to yours. And I would tell you, I think we do a really good job at that. We’ve built an incredible platform that has, and enables a financial advisor to have all the same arrows in the quiver that a big firm has. We’ve got an incredible alts department. We’ve got an incredible CIO that produces great research. We got incredible in-house portfolio managers, both in the core equity space, but then also the municipal bond space. We have an incredible external manager platform that has everything from cash management on steroids, to venture capital investing, to co-investing, to direct investments into companies. We have this really great platform. We also recognize that we want to grow through M&A as well, because there’s only so much time in the day you’re not willing to add more employees and more like-minded advisors to grow. We do both, to your point, we absolutely do both, and they’re both equally as important. On the M&A side, I would say it’s been responsible for half of our AUM growth over the last seven years, and the other half has been organic. And I think as we get bigger and bigger, that number’s going to not stay consistent. I would say that if we could grow our AUM organically by 10% per year, and then do five to seven acquisitions a year, combination of RIAs and Wall Street lift outs, I think those are good goals for us, and we’re off to a good start in trying to achieve those goals. Louis Diamond: I think if you pull off even half of that, I think your private equity sponsors, and investors, and employees would be very happy. Can we double click into the organic growth side? How do you view whether your growth rate changing organically since leaving Morgan to start the RIA? And if it has changed, what do you think are the things that are responsible for the faster growth, or slower growth if it’s slower than when you’re at Morgan? Jason Fertitta: One of the interesting secrets about being independent versus inside of a big bank is I think your clients will actually do more business with you if you’re independent. I didn’t realize that until we went independent. I had heard that before, but I was like, that may or may not be true. But, when we went independent, and every time we recruit a team from a big bank, the same thing happens. It’s like the clients are like, “What took you so long?” They’ve very much, for the most part … Now, that’s not every client, but most clients, I think prefer to be serviced by an advisor that’s conflict bringing the independent channel. There are other clients that might have a big investment banking relationship with a big bank, or something like that, like a business reason for not leaving. But, in terms of just being able to service the client from an independent channel where you’re a legal fiduciary, I think all the interest is aligned from client to service provider, and I just think it’s easier to raise money in this channel than it is at a bank. Louis Diamond: And you really think the types of clients you work with or just clients in general, the difference maker is really the conflict-free advice. Obviously, it sounds good, but I would argue that when you were at Morgan Stanley, your team was one of the top teams in the country, you had an amazing reputation, you’re probably giving similar quality advice then than you were today. How has that really manifested itself? Jason Fertitta: I always say I think you can have a great experience at a firm that is perhaps not the most prestigious, great firm in the country if you’re with the right team. And I think you can also have a horrible experience at a firm with a great reputation if you’re with the wrong team. It is my belief the most important thing from the customer’s perspective is who you’re working with. I appreciate your comments about our team, and we work very hard to deserve the reputation that you’re talking about. But, I also think that when you’re in the independent world, some of the things the banks do very well is they have great investment platforms, and a lot of due diligence in their products. I think when you’re an independent firm, you’re obviously, you don’t immediately have all of those same intangibles that a big bank has. I think it was very important for us to invest heavily into those departments inside of our firm to where we could be on some equal footing with Wall Street firms, and we have been. We have raised a lot of money for alternative managers. I think alternatives are a huge secret sauce that an independent advisor needs to have access to, because in a world where the public markets are getting more efficient and more commoditized, it’s very challenging to grow organically the way that we have without some secret sauce. And I think the secret sauce lies within the alternatives, because it’s very hard to differentiate yourself if you’re just trying to optimize someone’s public equity portfolio, and improve where they sit on the efficient frontier. I think that’s just a tough challenge. But, if you can mix in some truly differentiated alternatives where access is a big component of the value proposition, then all of a sudden, you’re bringing your clients something special, and something that’s unique. Louis Diamond: I really like that perspective. I think you’re completely right. I’ve always heard people say investments are commoditized, and it’s all about advice and planning, but I think the way you framed it about the ALFA essentially being worked out of it, so it’s the access, and it’s what you’re doing different on the investment side outside of the more basic or commoditized stuff that’s a difference maker. When you launched the firm, and I believe still today, Americana hired Dynasty Financial Partners as your infrastructure partner. Now that you’re significantly larger, you’re seven years into your independent journey, how does the relationship with Dynasty change, if at all? What do they do for you that you benefit from differently today than when you first launched? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, it would’ve been impossible for us to do what we did without Dynasty’s help. Dynasty has delivered for us in a meaningful way and they continue to. They’re a great partner. We definitely are developing our own sea legs as well, just because you have to just by virtue of the size that you get to. But, Dynasty, I think, has been incredibly innovative in terms of launching an investment bank and bringing … Dynasty’s brought us deals, which is incredible. Just in addition to being an infrastructure partner, they’ve actually provided us deal flow. They’re also, because they’re working with so many firms, you get in all sorts of situations as an independent firm, and to have someone to pick up the phone and say, “Here’s what we’re dealing with.” And they’ll say, “Oh, here are the three things you need to do. You either need to do it like this or this.” Just a lot of experience within Dynasty. I don’t know if we’re Dynasty’s biggest client or not, but I would say we’re certainly in their top three. We are looking to continue that relationship, and always having a relationship with Dynasty, but I would describe it as evolving, because our revenue is up 6X in the last six years. Louis Diamond: Amazing. That makes complete sense. The needs of the business when you are leaving a big firm is got to get the clients over, got to build the plane before it can fly, and understand how to do X, Y, and Z, to now, it’s enterprise building, and optimizing, and growing inorganically, so that makes complete sense, and very cool to hear that Dynasty has evolved or morphed the relationship to meet you where you are now. And to me, I think a big part of that is hiring professional management. That’s always a question we get. When am I big enough? When’s the right time to hire professional management, whether it’s a full-time CEO, a CFO, a COO, et cetera. I know in your case, fairly early on you hired Ron Thacker who was a regional manager from Morgan Stanley. I saw recently you hired a CFO, so you’re really professionalizing the leadership ranks. When did you know it was the right time to build a professional management team, and how did you think about that evolution? Jason Fertitta: We knew from day one that’s what we wanted to do. I think when you go independent, there’s a couple of different schools of thought. One school of thought is I can go independent. I’m not going to really have a boss. I’ll be my own boss. I may or may not grow the business. I’m going to run it in a way that’s lean. I might be able to have a little bit more of a take home because there’s not a third hand in the cookie jar in terms of the bank, and it’s a great lifestyle. I think that’s one school of thought and I think that’s great. That was not our school of thought. Our school of thought is we had a belief that in this country, there’s going to emerge five to 10 regionally dominant RIAs, and these regionally dominant RIAs were going to enjoy economies of scale, and they were going to compete with Wall Street. And in order to do that, we had to reinvest a lot of our profit into our business through building this management team that you’re referencing. Even to this day, I don’t make anywhere near the amount of income that I made when I was on Wall Street, but I’m not, and it’s because we’re building equity value, and we’re building something that will last, and we reinvest a lot of our cash flow into professionalizing the management team, and then being able to deliver on that promise to the financial advisors that are here that you’re going to have a platform, that when you walk in the room, you’re going to be able to compete with Wall Street. And so, that’s always been our goal, which is not necessarily everybody’s goal when they go independent, because it’s a lifestyle decision really. I work way harder today than I worked when I was at a Wall Street firm. Louis Diamond: It’s so interesting. Two threads I want to tug on from what you said. The first one is I think just the comment you made that you’re making less today when the business is significantly larger than it was when you’re at Morgan Stanley, you’re working harder. I think even that dynamic is going to feel like a shock to a lot of people, right? If you’re working harder, the business is doing six times more revenue than it was at Morgan Stanley, that doesn’t seem like a fair trade. How do you think about that relative to the equity value that you’re amassing? Was that always the plan, or is that just something you’ve leaned into as the firm has grown and scaled? Jason Fertitta: Well, the third component you left out is my net worth is up 10X- Louis Diamond: There you go. Jason Fertitta: … whereas if I would’ve stayed at a Wall Street firm, and so are all the employees here. If it’s about that, I can tell you that we checked that box. Americana is very valuable, and we’re happy about that. It’s really just about how you want to create that, right? If you want to create it through income, and pay a lot of taxes along the way, stay at the Wall Street firm. But, if you want to create value for yourself and your partners, and grow your balance sheet, you can do it in a much more tax efficient way in the independent world. And I’m light years ahead of where I would’ve been if I would’ve stayed at a Wall Street firm. Louis Diamond: I think that’s the coolest realization I think someone can have, right? We always say it’s like, what do you value more? Is it the short-term liquidity, or certainty of getting a big upfront recruiting deal at ordinary income, or staying where you are and keep making your 50% payout, take advantage of your firm’s retire in place program? And for many people, that’s what they value. But, for you, I think you very clearly and transparently articulated that, yeah, I might make less, but what really matters is my net worth. It’s how much I’m actually netting for my family in the long run. For people who want to play the long game, really buy into that concept, it sounds like following your path would be ideal, but it may not be for everyone. Jason Fertitta: It’s a much better path, and I’m living proof of it, and not only am I living proof of it, all of my partners are here, and everybody that owns equity in Americana is living proof of it. Louis Diamond: Amazing. You said you’re working more now than when you’re at Morgan. How has your day-to-day, or day in the life changed? What types of activities are you doing more or less of, and how do you balance everything? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, it’s hard to balance everything, it is. But, I would say that one of the unique things about Americana is the founders are all financial advisors. We aren’t consultants that came out of the consulting world, we’re financial advisors. I’m still a financial advisor. I still cover clients. I would say a third of my time is actually covering the house accounts here with some of my original partners. A third of my time is firm related stuff, and then, a third of my time is M&A, and that’s not only M&A, but helping the advisors that are here grow their business also. And so, I come across a lot of leads and opportunities. I’m not really taking them for the house account book or myself. I’m finding the right advisors that I feel I could service the clients the best, and then I’m flipping them to them and sitting second chair and I’ve seen some amazing growth to their businesses by just being able to send them leads. Louis Diamond: Yeah. I think that’s always like the tug of war for … I think most founders of RIAs in this industry, they were advisors themselves. They were the rainmakers, or they still are, but there’s definitely some folks who, whether because of lack of time, or lose the spark or passion for working with clients, that they pivot to being full-time CEO, or we’ve even seen people go the other way where they say, “I was the CEO. I really just want to be an advisor, or just do M&A, and I’m going to hire a CEO.” It’s really cool to hear how you split up your time, and you’re able to do it all. And I’m sure it’s not perfect. I’m sure your family wishes they saw you more, and et cetera, but it sounds like you’re able to really pursue your different passions. Jason Fertitta: All those three activities are very fun, and they keep everyday interesting, and you don’t necessarily know at what points in the day you’re going to be working on which bucket, and there’s a lot of blend and overlap, but we spend a lot of time here working on behalf of our clients, and the firm, and every day is an adventure, but it’s fun. It’s a blast. Louis Diamond: Absolutely. Well, let’s spend some time talking about your fairly recent capital raise. In October of 2024, Americana announced that PE firm Lovell Minnick Partners, the firm’s first outside institutional investor was coming in to take a majority stake in the firm. Can you take us back to that decision? I’m sure it’s still clearly vivid. Maybe talk through it, and when did you first start to think seriously about bringing in capital? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, so probably at the end of ’23, we looked down, and there was $100 million worth of potential M&A that was fairly actionable that we could do. And the other M&A events we did were small deals, 10, $20 million sometimes, but firms with three, 400 in AUM to 600 million in AUM. We were doing deals that size, and we’re just passing the hat, and saying, okay, to the families that were in our cap table and to ourselves, who wants to write a check? The cap table was changing all the time based on people’s buy-in and M&A transaction. But then, when you sit down, and you look at potentially $100 million of M&A, if every deal came through that you’re in conversations around, and we owned at the time 75% of the firm, the families owned 25. If all of that M&A were to have happened, we didn’t have $75 million as employees. We were facing dilution. And then, we went to the families and said, “Hey, we don’t mind being diluted, but we got to know that if all of these came through, you guys want to invest another 100 million into this business.” And that’s when they said, “Well, we can. All the deals that you’ve done so far have been accretive and great. But, our value add to you is not M&A. It’s not underwriting. It’s not how to take this firm from four billion to 12 billion or customers. Why don’t you contemplate bringing in an institutional partner to help you round first base and go to second and third?” And so, I called a good friend, a gentleman by the name of Jimmy Dunne, who’s legendary in the world of golf and business. He’s a vice chair at Piper Sandler. I explained the situation, and he said, “Well, this is going to sound self-serving, but I think you should hire me and my firm to run a process to find your partner.” Louis Diamond: Classic investment banker. Jason Fertitta: And we did, and he worked on a very small retainer, and a contingency fee, and they helped us get ready to show the firm to the institutional world, and that took nine to 12 months of hard work to get ready. They ran the process. I think we had 30 firms sign the NDA in the October of ’24 month that you mentioned. I think we had 20 offers. And during that year, we were getting to know a lot of the people that were going to be bidding on us, and we frankly were incredibly impressed by Lovell Minnick and their success that they have had in investing in the wealth space. We were always pulling for Lovell Minnick to compete and compete well, got to run an honest process and Lovell Minnick was not the high bid, but they were a very good and well-thought-out bid that was easy for us to understand on why they were where they were. And for us, it was about how can we create value from this point forward with the right partner to really grow the firm and scale it to where we wanted it to be? And so, that was the more important driving factor in our decision to sell to Lovell Minnick. Now, of course, we wanted to sell a minority piece, but the reality is, given the activity that we had in our M&A pipeline at the time, they were going to eventually get to majority anyway. And so, I may be skipping ahead a little bit in the podcast, but I know what some of the questions are going to contemplate, and our thought was, you’re in a better position to negotiate minority rights before the transaction than later. And so, we got all of that out on the table in our negotiations with our private equity partner, and then just got married immediately instead of had this weird period of where they ultimately were going to get to majority control through M&A, and then, you have this awkward moment where that shift happens after you’re already partners. Louis Diamond: Very interesting. Was it a hard decision to give up majority control over your baby? Jason Fertitta: Definitely a lot of self-reflecting on behalf of our team and everything, but I think where we came out with it, and I’m a big believer in this, is the people that really control the business are the people that control the relationships with the clients. Lovell Minnick knows that, and we’ve never had a decision in a year and a half that we don’t all arrive at the same place. We negotiate, we study, but they know that it’s not in their best interest to try and force the management team to do something that the management team is not in agreement on, because at the end of the day, we’re servicing all of these accounts. Look, we don’t see eye to eye exactly on everything, no partners do. But, we’re generally in the same zip code on everything, and we talk things through until we all arrive at the same place that this is in the best interest of the company. And I think a big part of why that works so well for us in Lovell Minnick, and I think this is very unique in the industry, it all goes back to we all own the same share class. We’re all in the foxhole together. We all sink or swim together. There’s no way one group can win and another group can lose. We all own the exact same security. Not only do we all own the exact same security, but our employees own it. The families that are in our cap table own it. And so, every decision comes from the standpoint of how do we make decisions to benefit that security? Louis Diamond: Makes sense. It’s still a tough decision, but you lay it out, make it seem like an easy decision with the conviction you have, I think the very pure motivation to make that leap. Aside from capital to fuel M&A, what are the other things that Lovell Minnick is doing for your business to help it? Jason Fertitta: Well, Lovell Minnick, and this is another thing that was impressive to us, they’re always the first institutional capital until what’s otherwise an entrepreneurial family-owned business. They’re not afraid of building the things that you have to build to get ready to scale. They’ve seen it in every investment they’ve made. And so, that was very refreshing to us, because frankly, we wanted the help. We wanted the expertise. We’re financial advisors at heart. Like a lot of private equity firms, LMP has this third party advisory relationships with industry people, and they’ve brought those people into our firm, several sit on the board of the firm today, and they’ve just been fantastic to work with. Some have more experience with FinTech, some have more experience with HR, some have more experience with actual investment platforms and product. Some have more experience in how to help clients optimize from a tax perspective. Some have family office experience. And so, we’ve really benefited from this group of people. And I would tell you that, since they came into our world, which is about 18 months ago, we have been building a lot of things that are about to be unveiled to not only our financial advisors, but our clients. And I think that the experience is just going to continue to get better for both of those segments. Louis Diamond: Very cool. Yeah, it seems like a great fit. And I meant to ask you before, because it’s such a cool, and I think still a fairly novel concept, but what was the thinking behind having nine families, their customers or clients come in, and buy some equity in the firm? Why’d you do that? And then what’s been the outcome of that? Jason Fertitta: It was more their idea than us after we launched the firm. And this goes back to my original comments about the clients want to do more business with you when you’re independent than when you’re inside the bank. And we have a lot of clients that are entrepreneurial. And so, I think when we explained to them the reasons why we were doing this, and the reasons why we’re so excited about it, they got excited about it too, some clients, most clients. And so, what they said was, “Yeah, we’re going to move our money to it, we’re excited about it, but if there’s an opportunity, we’d also like to own a piece of the firm.” And originally, when they said that, I didn’t know if they meant that they wanted us to give them, but they wrote a check. They all wrote checks. We set an arbitrary value of the firm in the first year after we launched it. And that wasn’t a whole lot of science behind the value. It’s basically what we would’ve been paid by walking across the street, and that was the original value. And they bought into the firm, and then, Lovell Minnick really thought it was a nice novel concept that they hadn’t seen before, and they’ve embraced it. When they invested, we brought another round of clients into the firm at that valuation. I think it’s really powerful, because what’s important for us in these families is that they’re all pillars of their respective communities and they’re spread across all over the country and Mexico. We have some incredibly good reputation, great business people in Mexico City, and Monterrey, and Los Angeles, and Midland, and Dallas, and Austin, and Houston. And we’re open to the concept of when we come into new markets, finding that pillar of the community, finding that family who people ask, “Well, what do you do with your money?” We want them to say, “Well, we own our own wealth management firm. He wants to have them call you and they’ll show you what we do with our money.” And that’s a powerful part of the organic growth and the flywheel. Louis Diamond: I absolutely love that. I oftentimes have clients, especially breakaway clients talk about how cool it would be to have a client or set of clients invest in their business. But, the reasons why, I love that as part of a very consistent, repeatable strategy of identifying key influencers essentially in different markets, and then having them come into the cap table. I would assume too, the dynamic of, “Oh, you should call Jason, he’s my financial advisor, he’s great,” to, “Hey, you should come in and meet my firm.” And I feel like clients are probably much more incentivized naturally to refer friends, family, et cetera. And just the power and dynamic of that referral is probably that much better than a referral from another happy customer who’s not an investor. Jason Fertitta: Exactly. When we’re looking at coming into a new city with a new partner, to the extent they have those clients in that community, and when they join us, we have a private equity partner that embraces that strategy and concept. When we’re talking to that Wall Street advisor, and they’re interested in our business model and our plan, I think that particular part of our business model is very differentiated and intriguing to them. Louis Diamond: Amazing. You mentioned in your last answer that you have, it sounds like you have some investors in Mexico, and that you’re serving families in Mexico and Latin America as well. Can you talk about adding that capability or the openness to go international? That’s clearly a big decision. It’s a different risk profile, different client needs. What was the thought process behind taking Americana, I guess, still in the Americas, but outside of America? Jason Fertitta: Yeah. Well, I think a lot of it is growing up in Texas, there’s a lot of wonderful families from Mexico whose kids and grandkids have moved here, and our children are going to school with their children, and they’re part of our community, and I think they’re a great part of our community. And so, I just started to notice how Wall Street treated this community as just one, right? And what we were able to do is cherry-pick a few families that we knew very well that are incredibly good reputations in the cities that they’re from, and their origins are from. And there’s a high desire on behalf of not only those families, but their friends to invest into the United States into our economy. And given that a lot of their children and grandchildren live in the US, these are families that have citizens and their family inside of the US and back home in Mexico. Most of these families, they’ve been going to our colleges. A lot of these families sit on the boards of Fortune 500 companies inside of the United States. These are families that are very easy to do due diligence on, and frankly, we have learned a lot from them. They’re very sophisticated families, and so, they’ve been amazing partners, and we use Bank of New York Pershing to custody a lot of these assets, and I think they’re increasingly becoming more interested in alternatives as part of their portfolios, because I think going back 15, 20 years ago, these families were mostly stocks, bonds, and cash. But, as they continue to build out their own family offices, they’re becoming more sophisticated and interested in alternatives, so it’s really been an exciting part of our firm. Louis Diamond: Did this expansion, does it scratch the itch to go into different Latin American countries in Europe and Asia, or is that not really part of the roadmap? Jason Fertitta: Well, it’s open to the concept. Like I said, the genesis of this for us was the fact that our children go to school with their children, and we got to know several families just through our social circles here in Texas. But, I don’t think that same phenomenon would exist in Europe, other Latin American countries per se, but we’re certainly open to it, and there’s a lot going on in Latin America. There’s a lot going on and a lot of potential, so we’re open to anything that increases the footprint in the right way for Americana. Louis Diamond: Great answer. Let’s go back a little bit to talk a little bit more about your M&A strategy. You merged with or acquired Boulevard Family Wealth, which was Matt Celenza’s firm. I think Matt was the first breakaway guest on our show, and an amazing advisor. You bought Goodpasture Gray in Nashville, and more recently you bought NRT Consulting. I think from my read, three different types of firms, different geographies. How do you think about the M&A strategy? Jason Fertitta: I feel like we’re building out a firm and departments in the firm, and each of those acquisitions goes into a different department of our firm. I think Matt Celenza and Boulevard are fantastic, and they’re really good at tax optimization strategies for families, and they’re really innovative there. That is a very hot topic with all of our clients. More and more families are getting smart about the fact that not only does it matter what your returns look like. What really matters is how much of those returns you get to keep. And so, Matt and his team are incredibly sophisticated and cutting edge on tax optimization, and that’s proliferating throughout our firm right now, which is I think making us even better at what we can advise and provide to our clients. I would say that’s more in the family office service and tax planning part of our firm. Goodpasture Gray’s fantastic. WL who runs that firm, or did prior to the merger, I’ve known him for 30 years. He’s a longtime family friend. His clients are in Nashville, Santa Fe, and Texas. He and my father actually used to office together. And then, ironically, he hired Dynasty to represent him to find the right partner. That’s an example where full circle Dynasty brought him back and I hadn’t talked to him for decades, but we shared a bunch of fun stories about how I used to go up in college, and hang out with he and my dad in their office. That was a great full circle experience, but WL’s just a fantastic financial advisor that does what we’ve always done. He’s just a natural fit inside of our firm. And then NRT, Chris Ginsbach and his team, they’re unbelievable. They do bookkeeping services for families. They’re not signing tax returns, but the more sophisticated these families get, some of these families have 35, to 45, to 55 different LLCs that require bookkeeping services. He’s an accountant by training, so is everyone that works there. And I think that there’s a lot of cross-pollinating with our client base that wants bookkeeping services for their needs. With all of these different M&A events, it’s trying to meet or have the ability to meet your client at wherever their pain points are. And some of your client’s pain points are in bookkeeping and accounting. Some are in tax optimization, and some are just good old-fashioned financial advice and access. And all three of those acquisitions that you described are meeting that client in a different pain point, but they’re all pain points, and they’re all important. Louis Diamond: When you’re thinking about M&A, is it like you have, these are the three areas that we want to add to the firm? Next one, making it up, we want to add tax preparation. Are you then going out to find a firm that fits the bill, or is it more so just you’re selective with who you take on, and you look for a new capability, or just like an extreme alignment with how you’re already serving clients, and then, that’s what makes a compelling deal for you? Jason Fertitta: Yeah. Most of the time, we’re getting feedback from our clients on where they need help, and that is usually the spark that starts the fire on, okay, what if we added this? It’s really I would say more based on client feedback. We don’t have estate planning attorneys inside of Americana per se. We don’t have accountants that are signing people’s tax returns inside of Americana. We get a lot of interesting opportunities from accounting firms and estate planning firms. And so, I like how we have this great referral network in place with those industries. And so, I think we’d have to think long and hard about getting into those businesses per se. Louis Diamond: Makes sense. I feel like there’s probably a version of this story, your story, where you break away, you plot along, you’re happy to not have a boss anymore, clients are happy, maybe you get to like four or five billion in assets, and you call it a win, and just throw in coast mode, but clearly you didn’t do that. You went the opposite direction. What do you think drove the ambition to keep building towards something larger? What’s really sparking you and motivating you today maybe differently, or in a more defined way than it was when you first broke? Jason Fertitta: Yeah, I would say it’s not just me, it’s all the founders, and I think all the employees. I share this and not to sound corny about it. I think everyone here wants to try and build something that his or her children would say, “My parent was one of the founders and employees of Americana Partners.” It’s like, I think when you work at a bank, you definitely care about your brand that you’re building, but this is a whole next level of care about your brand. We really care about this brand, and we want it to outlast all of us. Louis Diamond: Love that. For a successful wirehouse advisor or team that’s sitting on a really nice practice maybe similar in size or in the same realm that you had back where you were in that world, and they’re thinking about maximizing their value, what advice would you offer? Do you think your story is an outlier, or do you think it’s doable by others if they follow certain advice or principles? Jason Fertitta: I would have a two-word answer. Call us. I’m kidding. I have a much longer answer. One of the things I really respected about a certain advisor, and if he’s listening to this, he’ll know exactly who he is, but I feel awkward saying his name. When I was contemplating going independent, I talked to an entrepreneur I really admire, and I called him, and I said, “Hey, we’re thinking about doing this.” And he said, “Look, I’m going to try and convince you to join our firm, and if you don’t end up doing that, it’s fine. There’ll be no hard feelings, because we ended up launching our own firm and I would never fault you for the decision if you wanted to do that with your team.” And we thought long and hard, we almost joined his firm. It was in a very different geography so we ended up launching our own firm. I would say that if you want to do it yourself, we would respond the same way. We would give you a high five, and wish you well, and say you’ve made a great decision, and we’d be pulling for you. If you want to spend more time with your clients, and less time in building the firm, we have the firm built, and it’s fantastic, and it wasn’t without blood, sweat and tears for seven years, and we can create a transaction that is economically the same or better as launching your own firm, and you have a voice, and you have a seat at the table, because we’re still small enough to where you can help shape the direction of this firm, and we want your input. The difference is that instead of spending a third of your time interacting with financial advisors the way I do, you could spend 90% of your time interacting with your clients, instead of a third, and be part of a firm that I think has great national prospects. But, I would never fault someone for doing it themselves, because that’s what we did, and that would be hypocritical. But, I really do think that this is a better path, even if you did it yourself, or if you did it with someone like us. I think you’re choosing two better options than what you currently have. Louis Diamond: I think it’s a great perspective, and I think it’s balanced and fair too. There’s plenty of people that I speak to where their passion is building. They want to be the next Americana, right? That’s what’s going to spark them and get them out of bed. They want to do M&A, they want to be the CEO, they want to really make their mark on the industry, and that’s fine. But, I do think there’s probably more advisors out there that would love to be part of something, and they’d love equity, and they’re passionate about different things than you were passionate about when you launched the firm. And the theory of a rising tide lifts all boats, it’s like, you can do this yourself or let’s just build something bigger and better together. And just getting comfortable with the theory of you’ll own a smaller piece of the pie, but the pie is much more valuable than owning 100% or 80% of something that’s less valuable, and is going to take you in a different direction personally. I always say we’re not in the business of making judgments for people. It’s up to them to define their goals, and then, we’ll help them execute on it. But, I really like that perspective. I agree, it’s not for everyone. What you did is extremely hard, it’s a risk, it’s a big swing. But, if you have the stomach for it, and you want to take the swing, to me there’s no better time to pursue that path than today. Jason Fertitta: I agree. And I could totally see a world over the next five years where some of these advisors that join us are bigger shareholders in this firm than me, and that would be great. Louis Diamond: Interesting. Jason Fertitta: I’m with you, not only do I agree with what you’re saying, to me, I’ve never thought about how much of this company do I own? I’ve thought about what is the percentage of the company that I own, and what is it worth? I could care less if it was 25%, 12.5%, 5%. What I care is, what is that slice worth? Louis Diamond: That’s a fun way to look at it. Jason, this has been really fun. This new series Build, Grow, and Transact, this is proof of concept, but we’re going to have to do a ton of these, because the richness of detail, and whenever we have breakaway guests, we’re talking to them in the beginning when they’re still finding their feet, everything’s new and fresh. They haven’t thought about or executed on M&A and taking on capital partners. But, I feel like this is the missing ingredient where it’s a playbook for how others can be better themselves, something to shoot towards. And I really appreciate your candor and transparency, and I’m very serious, we’ll have to do this again when you’re at 25 billion, and you have even more lessons, and I’m sure battle scars to share. Jason Fertitta: No doubt. I’m for sure open to doing that. And maybe in the meantime, I see the pictures behind your head there. I’d love to come visit you in Park City and hang out and ski, or play golf, or- Louis Diamond: You got it. Jason Fertitta: All right. Thanks for your time and thank you for having me. Louis Diamond: Thanks, Jason. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful, because you take your professional responsibility seriously, and are dedicated to your clients, but are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms, or could a better option exist? Should I Stay Or Should I Go is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions, and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

Michael Smith—Managing Partner and Founder, Emerald Advisors Michael Smith shares how a client-first philosophy, niche specialization, and independence helped Emerald Advisors grow from $385mm to more than $1B in assets. In Summary What happens when an advisor builds a business around client service rather than operational efficiency? Jason Diamond speaks with Michael Smith, Founder and Managing Partner of Emerald Advisors, about the path from a successful Merrill practice to an independent RIA that has grown from approximately $385mm to more than $1B in assets. Along the way, Michael shares the story of being told he was “overservicing” clients, why that moment became a catalyst for independence, and how a highly specialized service model fueled the firm’s growth. Drawing on lessons from a 24-year Navy career, Michael offers a perspective on leadership, specialization, client care, and what it takes to build a durable business in today’s wealth management landscape. The Storyline Growth is often viewed as the result of marketing, referrals, acquisitions, or scale. Michael Smith sees it differently. After building a successful practice at Merrill, Michael found himself at odds with the constraints of the traditional wirehouse model. What ultimately stood out wasn’t compensation, technology, or platform capabilities. It was a philosophical difference around client service. When he was told he was spending too much time helping clients navigate tax planning, equity compensation, and other financial decisions outside the traditional scope of investment management, he began to question whether the model aligned with the way he wanted to serve families. That realization eventually led him to launch Emerald Advisors in late 2019. The firm started with roughly 85 clients and approximately $385mm in assets. Today, Emerald serves more than 225 families and oversees more than $1B in assets. Throughout the conversation, Michael reflects on the lessons learned from building an independent firm, developing a niche around concentrated stock positions and executive compensation, navigating custodial and technology decisions, and creating a culture rooted in accountability and service. Underlying it all is a simple belief: when firms become highly intentional about who they serve and how they serve them, growth often becomes the outcome rather than the objective. Topics Covered Merrill breakaways and independence Client service as a growth driver Building an RIA RIA growth and scalability Organic growth strategies Concentrated stock positions and equity compensation planning Ideal client personas and niche specialization Schwab and Fidelity custody relationships Advisor succession and enterprise value Navy leadership principles in wealth management The rise of mega RIAs Advisor technology and infrastructure > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors Why did being accused of “overservicing” clients become a turning point? (08:15)Michael explains how a conversation with management revealed a deeper misalignment between his client-service philosophy and the wirehouse model. What does client service look like beyond portfolio management? (11:30)The discussion explores how tax planning, equity compensation guidance, and proactive coordination can deepen client relationships. Why can specialization accelerate growth? (15:45)Michael shares why serving a defined niche often creates stronger referrals, greater expertise, and clearer positioning. How has the RIA landscape evolved since 2019? (20:30)Michael reflects on the rise of mega RIAs, changing technology capabilities, and why he believes independent firms still have significant advantages. What role do custodians really play in an independent business? (23:15)Michael discusses his experience working with Schwab and Fidelity and why he views custodians as strategic partners rather than competitors. Is the wirehouse model still the right fit for some advisors? (26:45)The conversation challenges the assumption that independence is the best path for everyone and explores the realities of running a business. Does reaching $1 billion in assets actually change anything? (32:45)Michael offers a practical perspective on growth, success, and why asset milestones can be misleading. What can advisors learn from the “steamboat” philosophy? (37:15)Drawing on his Navy experience, Michael shares a leadership framework that continues to shape how he approaches business building and decision-making. Key Takeaways Exceptional client service can become a meaningful competitive advantage when it extends beyond investment management. Independence gave Michael the flexibility to build a service model that aligned with his philosophy rather than adapting his philosophy to fit the platform. Developing a niche around executive compensation and concentrated stock positions helped accelerate Emerald’s growth. The ability to make technology, custodial, and operational decisions quickly remains a significant advantage for independent firms. Not every advisor should be independent. Running a business requires a different set of skills and responsibilities than serving clients alone. Growth milestones are useful, but they do not define success. Michael believes success existed long before Emerald reached $1 billion in assets. High-performing teams with a clear client focus often find that growth becomes a natural byproduct of execution. https://youtu.be/RjzsMcC2DnY Quotable Moments “I literally had to go back and Google the word overservicing.” “Servicing the client is the most important thing that we can do today.” “If you serve a niche and you’re very good at that niche, that word gets around.” “Growth becomes the outcome.” FAQs Can an advisor really “over-service” clients? The discussion explores the tension between efficiency and depth of service. While some business models prioritize scale and consistency, others are built around solving a broader range of client problems. The right answer often depends on the advisor’s philosophy and business model. Does specialization still matter in a relationship business? Michael argues that developing expertise in a specific area can accelerate growth by making referrals easier and helping advisors become known for solving a particular set of problems. What actually changes when an advisor becomes independent? Beyond economics, independence often creates more flexibility around client service, technology, processes, and business decisions. At the same time, advisors assume responsibility for running the business itself. Is full independence the right path for every advisor? No. Michael acknowledges that many advisors benefit from the structure, support, and resources available within traditional firms. Independence offers flexibility, but it also introduces complexity and responsibility. How should advisors think about the $1 billion milestone? Michael views asset milestones as useful benchmarks but not measures of success. In his view, business quality, client outcomes, and sustainability matter more than any specific asset number. What role does an ideal client persona play in growth? Rather than trying to serve everyone, Emerald built its business around a clearly defined client profile. Michael believes that focus improves service, creates operational consistency, and supports organic growth. How can advisors balance growth with client service? One of the central themes of the episode is that growth and service are not necessarily competing objectives. In some cases, a differentiated service model becomes the reason a business grows. The discussion explores the tension between efficiency and depth of service. While some business models prioritize scale and consistency, others are built around solving a broader range of client problems. The right answer often depends on the advisor’s philosophy and business model. Michael argues that developing expertise in a specific area can accelerate growth by making referrals easier and helping advisors become known for solving a particular set of problems. Beyond economics, independence often creates more flexibility around client service, technology, processes, and business decisions. At the same time, advisors assume responsibility for running the business itself. No. Michael acknowledges that many advisors benefit from the structure, support, and resources available within traditional firms. Independence offers flexibility, but it also introduces complexity and responsibility. Michael views asset milestones as useful benchmarks but not measures of success. In his view, business quality, client outcomes, and sustainability matter more than any specific asset number. Rather than trying to serve everyone, Emerald built its business around a clearly defined client profile. Michael believes that focus improves service, creates operational consistency, and supports organic growth. One of the central themes of the episode is that growth and service are not necessarily competing objectives. In some cases, a differentiated service model becomes the reason a business grows. Related Resources The Transitioning Advisor’s Lament: Things I Wish I Knew Before Freedom vs. Familiarity: Is it Worth Disrupting Comfort for Something That Might Be Better? IBD vs. RIA Revisited: Two Independent Pathways for Advisors to Consider Advisor Transition Report 2026 Guest Bio Michael Smith, CPWA® is the Founder and Managing Partner of Emerald Advisors, an independent wealth management firm overseeing more than $1 billion in assets for affluent families, executives, and business owners with complex planning needs. Mike entered the wealth management industry in 2005 after a distinguished 24-year career in the United States Navy, where he served both as an enlisted sailor in the Submarine Force and later as a Limited Duty Officer aboard USS Abraham Lincoln and on major staffs around the world. He earned a Bachelor of Science in Management and an MBA with dual emphases in Finance & Accounting and International Business. Throughout his career, Mike has been known for his commitment to comprehensive planning, helping clients navigate complex issues involving concentrated stock positions, executive compensation, tax strategy, estate planning, philanthropy, and multi-generational wealth transfer. His client-first approach and passion for education have helped Emerald Advisors grow from a startup firm in 2019 to a nationally recognized RIA serving more than 225 families. Outside of the office, Mike is an avid ultrarunner, golfer, lifelong learner, and dedicated advocate for children’s health initiatives. He is a current member of the Legacy Council at Seattle Children’s Hospital and has served in leadership and board roles supporting the Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation, the Barbara Davis Center for Diabetes, the ALS Association, and the Alyssa Burnett Adult Life Center. He is also the proud father of Kat Smith. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… From “Overservicing” Clients to Building a $1B RIA: A Merrill Breakaway Story A conversation with Jason Diamond and Michael Smith, Managing Partner and Founder of Emerald Advisors.      Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is From “Overservicing” Clients to Building a $1B RIA: A Merrill Breakaway Story. It’s a conversation with Michael Smith, managing partner and founder of Emerald Advisors. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for financial advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned and, each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: Growth is often viewed as the result of better marketing, stronger referrals, a larger team and even acquisition and that’s all true yet growth can be the byproduct of something else entirely. For example, Michael Smith built a successful practice at Merrill then, one day, he was told he was spending too much time with his clients, or his management put it over-servicing clients. For Michael, that wasn’t a warning sign about his approach, it was a signal that he might have outgrown the firm and the model. Today, Michael is the founder and managing partner of Emerald Advisors, the independent RIA he launched in late 2019 with roughly 385 million in assets and 85 client relationships. Less than seven years later, the firm has grown to more than a billion in assets while remaining deeply focused on a highly-specialized client base and an unusually hands-on service model. What makes this story particularly interesting isn’t just the growth, it’s the thinking behind it. Michael’s perspective was shaped long before he entered wealth management. After serving more than two decades in the Navy, he brought a leadership philosophy centered on accountability, discipline and what he calls steamboat people, those who keep moving forward regardless of conditions, that mindset continues to influence how he builds his team, serves clients and evaluates opportunities. In this episode, we discuss the decision to leave Merrill, the realities of launching a fully independent RIA, why specialization can accelerate growth, the evolving role of custodians and technology and why he believes exceptional client service remains one of the industry’s most durable competitive advantages. Because Michael’s experience suggests that growth isn’t always the result of finding more opportunities, sometimes it’s the result of creating the freedom to execute the vision you already had so let’s jump in. Michael, thank you so much for joining us today. For starters, can you walk us through your background and what brought you to the world of wealth management? Michael Smith: Jason, thank you so much for the opportunity to be here today, I do listen to the podcast a lot especially before I left Mother Merrill. But my background and how I got into financial services is really distinct because I was on the board of JDRF back in the day and the national sponsor for JDRF was UBS PaineWebber and they’re like, “Mike, why don’t you be a financial advisor?” And my master’s degree was actually a finance and accounting in portfolio management because I’ve managed my own portfolio for years and years and so, when I couldn’t get a job, I just fell into it because I couldn’t get a job and I needed a job. That was 21 years ago, Memorial Day so that’s how I got into this industry. Jason Diamond: It’s a unique background, it’s super interesting and I want to talk more about it. You mentioned Mother Merrill, we’ll certainly get there. Before we do, give us a little bit of context on the current business you operate, Emerald Advisors, any context you can share on size, number of staff, types of clients you serve would be great. Michael Smith: Sure. So, we launched Emerald in 2019, November 2019 with about 85 clients and you always talk about this on the podcast how scared it is to launch and go independent. And I would say we took over about 95% of our clients that we wanted to bring over and today we’re at about 230 clients, I think we have some onboarding right now, we have just over a billion of assets. So, we launched with the 85 clients and around 350, 385 million, now we’re over a billion. Jason Diamond: Good for you. Michael Smith: Thank you. And I launched with four employees and we’re now at 11. And I would give a shout-out to one of my key employees because, when I launched, I actually hired somebody that had no experience with us and that was really a good thing because that allowed that person to really focus on operations and back office stuff while my business partner Emily and I were able to focus on bringing on the clients and alleviating any issues that they may have or thought. Jason Diamond: So, meaning you hired somebody basically immediately upon launch to help you with the transition and with this next chapter? Michael Smith: Correct. I hired them before but they started the day we launched. Jason Diamond: Brilliant, I love it. Oh, let’s definitely talk more about that because I think that’s a great strategy for … You’re right, you said it in a joking manner now because you’re seven years past but it’s a very real fear that advisors have and I think it’s worth talking more about. I want to mention too you have, obviously, built this business and grown this business dramatically. I don’t want to make this episode about the pandemic but you moved the business at a, certainly, a unique time. Did it impact your growth at all? Did you feel like you hit a brick wall? Just curious about your thoughts. Michael Smith: No, Jason, that’s a great observation. I would venture to say that the pandemic was actually a good thing for us. Jason Diamond: Interesting. Michael Smith: And I say that because, all of a sudden, you could hit pause because everyone was relearning how to do business, how do we do client reviews, how do we communicate with clients in a environment. So, I think the pandemic allowed us to just really reset our expectations visiting with clients because I used to fly a lot because I have clients in 38 different states so this has actually been, not just good for me, but good for the industry because I think it’s reset our expectations that we don’t have to be every day with a client facing. Jason Diamond: I agree with that largely and it’s true of our business too, by the way, it’s certainly reshaped the way people expect to be communicated with. I think Zoom has become much more mainstream, phone calls and we’ve heard from many other advisors who say something similar. I was just curious because you moved so close to or if there was an impact but I get, honestly, I think you’re right, it allowed you to have this nice natural inflection point and almost like flipping a switch of a clean slate. Michael Smith: It allowed us to learn the processes too. So, we launched in November 1st, by March we were in lockdown and so it gave us the opportunity to take several months of just learning the processes of how to be an RIA, it was pretty good. Jason Diamond: Absolutely. So, one of the things you mentioned in that was the way in which you serve clients and I’d read something funny and I think it was around the time of your move. You were talking about that, Merrill, you had a manager who spoke about that you would overserve your clients, you serve clients too much, tell me about that. Michael Smith: That was such an interesting topic because I got called down to the ops officer’s office and they’re like, “Ugh, Mike.” And it brought my admin down with me and they’re like, “Mike, these reports that you’re taking care of your clients too much,” and I’m like, “What do you mean?” “Well, you’re overservicing them.” Jason, I literally had to go back and Google the word overservicing because I was like, “How do you overservice the client? I’m not making their bed.” It was just so funny to me that I got counsel for overservicing clients when we’re in a client-facing job and I think that was part of the catalyst. Jason Diamond: Tell me more about what they meant, you think. Michael Smith: Hindsight, I think they … I like to take care of people which means I’m very intuitive towards taxes, I understand how the tax code works, I understand how everything impacts their bottom line. So, when we’re doing deferred comp enrollments or 401(k) enrollments or I’m a big believer in Roth 401(k)s and backdoor Roths and I’ve been doing them for years, I think what Mother Merrill wanted at that time was us not to do that. And, again, nothing against Merrill, I get it but this is how they wanted us to act and I wasn’t in that mold, I was taking care of clients to a much deeper depth is how I would say it. Jason Diamond: And I think that speaks to you outgrew the model not necessarily the firm. I think Merrill does a lot of things really well, you would agree with that, I think given that you built 85 clients and 350 million in assets is nothing to sneeze at. But the model that it seems like you value client service and an integrated client service experience of that and the wirehouse model oftentimes doesn’t put a premium on that. Tell me about your ethos or your thoughts around client service today and what being independent enables you to do. Michael Smith: So, that’s an interesting observation because one of my clients actually just mentioned to me that the reason we’re growing so much is because of our service model and the fact that we deliver a tremendous amount of value over just portfolio management. I said my managers is in portfolio management, I don’t do that any longer, I have a staff that handles that for me but it’s really the servicing of the clients because they don’t know what we know and I think servicing the client is the most important thing that we can do today. Jason Diamond: Give me some examples of what you mean by servicing the client in a more holistic way. I agree with you, by the way, portfolio management, table stakes, financial planning, table stakes, tell me more about what you mean. Michael Smith: By that I mean we do a quarterly review on tax. So, a lot of people don’t understand how taxes work and how estimated taxes work. So, estimated taxes are January 1st to March 31st, January 1st to May 31st, January 1st to August 31st, that’s how you do your estimated tax payments, you figure out what that is. And for compensated employees where they have RSUs that come in at different times of the year or different grants or exercise their options at a different time, that can affect their estimated tax liability and I’m not big on giving Uncle Sam any more money than they have to have until they need it. And then everyone doesn’t understand how the penalties and interest works on the IRS. And I’m big on the tax payments because that’s where we can add a lot of value for not a lot of time and we integrate it with our portfolio so we know what we’re doing with our gains. And I happen to reside in Washington State which has a long-term capital gains tax rate once you surpass about 270,000 of long-term capital gains. So, it’s super important for us to be aware of this and that’s how we service them. We also help them with their rebalancing of their 401(k)s, things that wirehouses cannot supposed to do, we are not supposed to be helping them with some of their aspects of life. Jason Diamond: Yup. That’s what I was alluding to earlier, it’s limitations on the model, not because they’re bad models, it’s just a different way, a different ethos around client service. You mentioned RSUs and corporate employees, I know that’s a niche you have is around concentrated stock positions and equity comp plans. I guess let me ask you two different questions around this. First of all, why that niche? Interested. And then, second of all, do you think a team needs to have a specialization to be competitive these days or do you think it’s okay just to be like, “My job is to be the best advisor and I want to service assets wherever those assets may come from?” Michael Smith: Another great observation. I’m going to address the niche first and foremost. I think, and I talked to R.J. Shook’s staff just recently, and having a niche gives you a specialization and it also accelerates your growth factor. If you serve a niche and you’re very good at that niche, then that word gets around. If you’re a jack of all trades, you can do lots of things but I don’t think you’re focused and you’re not hitting the right numbers that I like to see. And I think that would be my theme is the niche allows you to focus on a very specific type of ideal client, that’s a Schwab thing where you have an ideal client persona and our firm has an ideal client persona. As far as having the equity comp, I absolutely was one of the teams at Merrill Lynch that was equity compensation designated, I managed a couple of plans. My exposure to that, Jason, I haven’t thought about this in a very long time, came from UBS where I had team members that were colleagues that were associated with the Nextel Sprint plan. And I always thought that you’re taking care of the top executives but, really, my background being in the military was how do we take care of the troops, the troops, I call them sailors, and how do we educate those sailors. And one of the things I’ve always said in my entire career in the military and I still say to this day is 50% of every bonus or a promotion or something like that should go to long-term savings. So, I use that same mentality with RSUs, with stock options, with bonuses. Set that aside, let that grow because you’re not used to spending it and you will learn to spend what you make. Jason Diamond: I think that’s a great reason, it’s super smart and I love your explanation, it was a very simplistic way. Honestly, even I hadn’t thought about that around your niche, I think, becomes almost like a force multiplier for your own growth because it’s much easier to become the guy in X, Y, Z vertical than to be the guy in every financial advisor of America, across America. Let me ask you a follow-up question, you mentioned the ideal client persona. I spend a lot of time at our firm thinking about this as well, what does your ideal client persona look like. How do you think about an opportunity though that differs from that persona? So, it’s great. Obviously, everybody, it’s easy, you get somebody who’s your perfect prospect, they walk in the front door, sign me up. But when you get something that’s not down the fairway for you, is it just I evaluate it on a one-off basis or are you super disciplined to that approach because it’s who your firm is? Michael Smith: I truly haven’t given that a whole lot of thought but I will tell you how I would handle that because I am handling it with some one-offs. I like the opportunity because you’re stretching your brain in that you’re thinking about how somebody else is reacting so you’d never know. So, I like it from a learning perspective but I also know it comes with a lot of other baggage, I’ll call it baggage, because, all of a sudden, they want to short the market, they want to go long-short strategies. So, all of a sudden, they’re not in our niche and, all of a sudden, they’re taking a lot of time, they’re draining our time so I think you got to be very careful about what you wish for. And there’s a lot of great advisors out there that will walk circles around these topics that I’m like, “Okay, I would rather refer somebody so they get the right experience than give them the wrong experience.” Jason Diamond: I absolutely love that answer. The bow you just put on it, I think, is the appropriate way in my mind to put a bow. At the end of the day, wouldn’t you rather service somebody more optimally even if you don’t believe it’s yourself, I agree with that. I want to ask you one more point on the client service piece. I was playing around on your website and, on your service model, you have health as a component of the client experience of your diagram. Why do you think health matters in a financial context? Michael Smith: I always believed in a healthy mind and a healthy body will bring so much joy to you and I think health is just part of your persona. If you don’t take care of yourself and your body and your mind, then it doesn’t matter what I do, I think you got to start with health. So, I’m very big on the executive physicals, I routinely require all of our staff to have an annual physical. And, again, they’re young people but you got to have these annual … I live and breathe going to see a doctor every year to do my annual physical, not because I think I’m pretty good health, I still run, I do a lot of things but I think your life starts with being healthy. Jason Diamond: Yeah, it’s refreshing to hear that, no doubt. It’s funny to think about but 2019 is a long time ago now and, in RIA world, I almost think of it like dog years. You’ve been around the block now for a little while so I’m curious how have you seen this space change since you launched in 2019? Michael Smith: In 2019, I didn’t know what I was doing, I could barely get out a wet paper bag but I do think it’s changed dramatically. I would say the biggest thing I’ve seen in just the six and a half, almost seven years is the rise of the mega RIAs and how they’re going to shape the industry. Everyone talked about fee compression at Merrill Lynch. When I was at Merrill, we talked about fee compression, then they talked about robo-advisors and now they’re talking about artificial intelligence replacing advisors, I don’t believe that and I don’t think that’s going to happen in the RIA space. What I see the RIA space maturing is into these very big mega firms as well as these independent RIAs like myself that serve a very niche market where we can walk in our lane. The ability to transact today is so much easier as an RIA than it was at a wirehouse as well because we have instant access to technology. My military background, my Navy background says make a decision right, wrong or different, if you don’t like it afterwards or you get new data, course change. So, in our industry, we can change on a notice. I hired a tech firm last year, I didn’t like the experience nine months into it, guess what, they’re not coming back. So, I can do that but you can’t do that at the bigger firms and even the bigger mega firms would have a hard time navigating a change just like that on a dime. Jason Diamond: You bring up an interesting point. To the extent you face competition, do you find yourself competing more against traditional wirehouse type firms or RIAs like yourself, mega caps RIAs? Are your clients attuned to any of this? Michael Smith: That’s an observation I haven’t thought of either there, Jason. I would say I don’t feel that I have a … I know there’s competition out there but we have a growth issue more than we have anything else so I don’t … I can’t take on the clients that want to become my clients so I’m not competing with people too much. Jason Diamond: A capacity issue, you mean? Michael Smith: Yeah, I have a capacity issue. Jason Diamond: I think you’re not alone in that. How can I even think about competition and the like when … A lot of advisors would probably say that. I want to talk more about the capacity situation but, before I do, let’s talk a little more about the RIA setup. Who do you custody with, remind us, and why or how did you arrive at that decision? Michael Smith: Yeah. So, when I launched, I went with Schwab, Schwab is a phenomenal partner, they helped me get a lot of stuff done, I couldn’t have done it without Schwab. During the pandemic, I realized that I should probably … So, remember, during the pandemic, we had a lot of issues with the banking industry, it was almost like a financial crisis but in a very compressed time. So, during the COVID, I decided to add Fidelity as another custodian so now I have two custodians and I opened accounts on both sides of the house but I like the custodians that are there to help you, they’re very good at what they do. I don’t even consider them a competitor and they aren’t competitors, they have their own branch so I don’t consider them competitors, I think they’re my partners and both Charles Schwab and Fidelity are good partners. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I think that’s the healthy way to look at the custody relationship. That’s a very common approach, I think, is launching with one custodian and then adding a secondary custodian or a tertiary custodian down the line for one reason or another so I appreciate you sharing that because we get those types of nuts and bolts questions a lot so I figured I’d ask you. One last question on the setup and then we’ll shift gears. Has anything been a negative? So, you talked about leaving Mother Merrill behind and, Mother Merrill, we use it facetiously but obviously it implies a degree of comfort and the homeland so I’m curious if you miss anything. Michael Smith: I miss the camaraderie of being with a bunch of other folks. I mentioned this when I first launched, I mentioned it year over year with my team, the one thing that we miss as an RIA and, again, Dynasty has their benefits as well and the mega RIAs have their benefits but, if you’re a true independent like myself, we get to go to conferences that we want to and that’s a timing issue, really, a time constraint. But one thing Merrill and Morgan, JPMorgan, and the other big wirehouses have as well as the megas, they have the ability to put conferences together for their advisors or their administrators and have this education. That’s the one thing that, I think, would evolve in the RIA industry in the future as well. They’re not my competitors, they’re my business colleagues. And if we think of them as competitors, and a lot of people do because I don’t want to share my client information or what I do with my competitor because they may steal them, if you’re that insecure, then you’re probably not the right advisor in the first place. Jason Diamond: I don’t disagree with that. It’s interesting too, I hear two common answers to that question, not about Merrill but just about somebody who’s broken away, what do you miss about the captive firm world. Either on this podcast or just in conversations with advisors, brand comes up a lot and then the point you just raised. I’ll even hear like, “Hey, forget the conferences and the trainings, just being able to have an office where I’ve got eight other advisors on a row for me, it’s a little bit of a different setup than in the independent space,” and I think that’s just a reality of you take the good with the bad. And for other advisors, by the way, one of the things I want to ask you about to this point is do you believe that there are advisors that are just better served in the W2 traditional firm world or do you think that every advisor should be looking at the RIA space? Michael Smith: I think that wirehouse serves a great purpose and- Jason Diamond: Okay, me too. Michael Smith: … there’s a lot of great people that are great advisors in that wirehouse, they need the structure. What I hadn’t alluded to is, and I mentioned this to a former manager from Merrill Lynch of mine just recently, actually, I was like, “I don’t think advisors realize what it takes to run a business.” I’m not trying to sugarcoat it, running an RIA is hard work, it takes a lot of your time day in and day out to run a business as well as taking care of and servicing your clients so I do think the wirehouse venue is the right way to go. And, Jason, I want to go back to one other thing about your identity. I launched as the Smith Group because that’s what I was known at Merrill Lynch. Within three or four months, I changed that name to a firm because I did not want to be associated with it. So, when you’re at one of the wirehouses, you’re known as your team name or something of that sort, I didn’t want to be known as that, I wanted to be known as Emerald Advisors not the Smith Group because, all of a sudden, you have a single point of failure. So, brand identity, it’s not so unique inside the wirehouse because it’s a team name versus Merrill or Morgan Stanley or something like that. Jason Diamond: It’s a good segue because I’ll tell you where my mind goes when you bring that up. My mind goes is you’re smart in a way that you might not even realize or maybe you do realize which is that, if and when it ever comes time to sell this business, it is probably more valuable without your name attached to it or maybe not. But in some way, shape or form, as an RIA, you have an obligation to be thinking about that or it’s probably on your radar, maybe not an obligation. Have you given an ounce of thought to M&A either acquiring businesses, growing in that way or, ultimately, when you succeed out of this business and what the RIA space enables you to do? Michael Smith: To answer that question, yes. Everyone’s thinking about merger and acquisition, I think about succession planning from day one. I actually thought about I’m a big team person, I come from the submarine force where everyone is a key player on a submarine, every single person has a job and responsibility on a nuclear submarine. So, inside the financial services industry, I know Merrill Lynch was very big on teaming, I understand Morgan Stanley is as well because teaming gives them a breadth of responsibility where the responsibilities are shared. So, mergers and acquisitions or selling my business, I think, if you’re not thinking about that … And I’m not thinking about selling my business because that’s a distraction to me. If I needed the money, then I would’ve went to a wirehouse and that’s okay, you monetize your life’s work. Today, I’m all about what’s right for the client, what’s right for my team and what’s right for where I want to be in the next 10 to 20 years. So, I am growing, I do want to grow, I’m looking at opening offices in probably three locations in the next 24 months or so. Jason Diamond: Well, that’s what I was going to say, plenty of advisors I think would say the same, I have a lot of runway. But what about the other side of this equation which is you’ve had tremendous organic growth, you’ve tripled your client base, you’ve more than tripled the asset base, have you thought about acquisition as a mean to jet fuel the inorganic growth side of things? Michael Smith: I have but not in the typical sense that you’re looking at as buying a book of business. I want to partner with like-minded advisors that share that common thread of taking care of clients where you can serve as their trusted counsel and sit in the meetings with their attorneys and sit in the meetings with the accountants and give them sage counsel that you can only do because you’ve been with the family for 20 years. You know this family and that, not always, but I think that’s missed a lot in other firms. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I think that’s fair. I just thought of something else that you brought up. You brought Dynasty so I’m going to ask … I’m going to pull on this thread. That implies to me that you’re at least loosely aware of the supportive independence models that are out there yet you chose a very independent, autonomous path, why? Michael Smith: Because I didn’t know what I was doing. Jason Diamond: Fair. Michael Smith: Let’s be honest, I like Dynasty, I talked with Dynasty when I left. I talked to them all, I talked to Rockefeller, I talked to Morgan, I talked to Dynasty and then, when push came to shove, I wanted to be Mike Smith and launch my own firm and learn. And I will tell you, you learn drinking through a fire hose and we did that, we learned, I know the mistakes. What I didn’t want to do is just go to someplace where this is the stuff you’re going to have to use. So, I think Dynasty is a great launching platform, I think there’s other ones out there that are similar to Dynasty or the Rockefellers or the Morgans, it’s truly what you’re trying to achieve in life. What do you want for you and your clients and I always put my clients before me because I’ve always had this lifelong thing of, you do the right thing, you’re going to get taken care of. Jason Diamond: Yeah. And that’s a very common analysis, by the way, and it’s very common too for big advisors like yourself to say I did my homework across all of those different categories. I looked at the traditional wirehouses and regional firms and boutique firms, I looked at the independent broker dealers, I looked at the support platforms and the aggregators and the roll-ups and here’s ultimately what I landed on and why. Did you always know that though or was that something that it took you a diligence process to figure out? There was plenty of advisors, by the way, who come to us and they’re like, “I knew for the last five years that I was sitting there I was launching an RIA someday.” Michael Smith: Yeah. I did not know that and, to be honest with you, hindsight, I think one of those partners probably could have made me a little bit better at first because then I could have focused on clients versus focusing on, hey, how to open a business, who’s your technology … We talked about custodians and some other things but we didn’t talk about technology, how do you go find that technology. Where’s your email address come from? Who’s your chief compliance officer? When it resides on you, you got to look in the mirror. So, I think those parties out there that provide that for brand-new advisors launching could be very beneficial. I had in my mind what I needed to do and I knew I’m very frugal so mine boiled down to how much money I wanted to spend, to be honest with you. Jason Diamond: I think it is a cost benefit analysis, it is. It’s absolutely … Because if you list the functions of a support platform on paper and you showed it to somebody who didn’t know the industry, they would say, “Why on earth wouldn’t you do this? They’re taking off your plate compliance and tech and custody and the like,” and the answer is because there’s a cost associated with it and plenty of advisors decide what you decide, I wanted … Or I just wanted a greater degree of autonomy and freedom, to your point, the name on the door piece, I wanted this to be mine. Michael Smith: And, Jason, I think it also goes to the uncertainty. I had never done anything since Navy, financial advising and then launching. So, for me, I was launching with four employees I had to take care of and here I was going to hire a third party that I was going to have to spend X amount on and I didn’t even know what my income was going to be. That’s different if you’re a multi-billion dollar FA coming out of a wirehouse, the monetary dynamics are different. Jason Diamond: Agreed. Okay, here’s a good one for you. We get this concept from advisors, from firms, from private equity that a billion dollars in assets is like this magic number in our industry. Do you feel like anything’s changed now that you’re at a billion and what’s the next chapter for Emerald Advisors? Is it just continuing on this steady trajectory and serving clients and trust that everything else comes with that? Michael Smith: I go back and forth on a billion, everyone thinks that’s the right number, the biggest number that you need but I think it’s just an arbitrary numbers because it didn’t define who I was. And a lot of people define success at a billion, they define success that you’re a successful firm at a billion. I think I was a successful firm at 300 million, I was a successful financial advisor with 20 clients in 2005. I would say a billion is a multiplier, what I would tell new advisors out there today is gather assets. The more assets you have, the more revenue you generate. The more revenue you generate, the more money you can put in your pocket which means the longer you can stay in the industry. The problem with the industry is an attrition problem, not anything else. So, assets just give us the ability to have revenue which gives us the ability to grow. Jason Diamond: And is that the plan? Keep adding assets, keep growing one client at a time with the focus though, obviously, on what makes you which is a very client-centric service model. Michael Smith: Correct. There’s a lot of things I want to do in the next couple of years and expanding our footprint is our biggest one with the right partners and then just keep adding. I have a business development officer that I’m probably offer a job to here pretty soon and things are going well. Jason Diamond: Yeah, that’s great. You mentioned the tech stack and the other components of the business and I hear you on the frugal cost-benefit analysis. But who did you turn to for some of those early decisions, was it Schwab primarily who helped hold your hand through that? Michael Smith: Schwab was very good at helping me identify the tech stack at first and the tech stack is actually the one consistent, there’s a lot of things I’ve been consistent on but tech is one that I’ve stayed with them. I launched with RightSize, now they’re Advisory, they’re very good, they do the right job for us and I’m big on cybersecurity. So, tech was helpful from Schwab, Schwab helped us with that. Jason Diamond: So, we spoke a little bit about your naval experience but, I’m curious, can you tell us how has your naval experience shaped your perception or your experience in wealth management? Michael Smith: My Navy path was a lot different than many officers. I served 12 years as an enlisted person before I got my direct commission as a Mustang officer, typically called limited duty officers or loud, dumb and obnoxious as I like to say. But that experience gave me a unique perspective because I was able to be the enlisted side and officer which are the workers and then the management side so I had both experiences which was unique. When I was commissioned, Admiral Jerry Ellis, a submarine admiral that commissioned me, heard this lesson to the podium, he was just talking about me in this point but he said, “There are three kinds of people in every organization. You have rowboat people who need to be pushed, you have sailboat people who move whenever the conditions are favorable and then there’s steamboat people, they move continuously through calm or storm.” And he said, “This is Ensign Michael Smith,” he said, “Make your course.” And that’s always stood with me because you do have those three types of people in life. You got people that are just … They’re robo people, they go until they get tired. You got sailboat people that go wherever the wind blows them and then you got steamboat people that chart their own course. I would say for advisors out there make your course or just be happy with what you’re doing. But for some of us hard chargers, I think that analogy has stayed with me my entire career. Jason Diamond: It’s fantastic. I love the analogy, great naval tie in also. Thanks for sharing that. We got time for one more question. You have a fascinating background, a fascinating path to the industry, obviously, an incredibly disciplined approach around client service, any parting thoughts, words of wisdom especially as it relates to growth? That’s what strikes me most about your story is the growth that your move unlocked and that’s what every advisor who listens to our show is looking for. Michael Smith: I’m going to give another plug to Schwab on this. We actually were fortunate and I got their consulting group to come in right afterwards and I’m a big believer in having offsite. So, I’ve had an offsite, two offsites a year for my team and it’s the entire team unlike the wirehouses where you don’t take your admins and stuff like that. I take my entire team to an offsite and we group up on what we’re trying to achieve and have goals and objectives for the year. Schwab allowed us to use their consultants and we came up with our ideal client persona. Teams or firms that have this model become high performing. When you become high performing, growth becomes the outcome. I couldn’t do anything but grow. Jason, I couldn’t not grow because I had this ideal client persona, I knew how I was going to do it, it was measurable. So, growth becomes the outcome and, if you hold people responsible, then we’re all going to grow together and it’s a fun outcome. Jason Diamond: Fantastic, it’s a great place to end. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us, I can’t wait to see what the next chapter holds for Emerald, this has been a lot of fun. Michael Smith: Jason, thank you so much. I appreciate everything you do for the industry as well. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. From “Overservicing” Clients to Building a $1B RIA: A Merrill Breakaway Story A conversation with Jason Diamond and Michael Smith, Managing Partner and Founder of Emerald Advisors.      Jason Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is From “Overservicing” Clients to Building a $1B RIA: A Merrill Breakaway Story. It’s a conversation with Michael Smith, managing partner and founder of Emerald Advisors. I’m Jason Diamond and this is the Diamond Podcast for financial advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned and, each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education driven and based on building relationships starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at (908) 879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual advisor transition report. It’s the award-winning, data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Jason Diamond: Growth is often viewed as the result of better marketing, stronger referrals, a larger team and even acquisition and that’s all true yet growth can be the byproduct of something else entirely. For example, Michael Smith built a successful practice at Merrill then, one day, he was told he was spending too much time with his clients, or his management put it over-servicing clients. For Michael, that wasn’t a warning sign about his approach, it was a signal that he might have outgrown the firm and the model. Today, Michael is the founder and managing partner of Emerald Advisors, the independent RIA he launched in late 2019 with roughly 385 million in assets and 85 client relationships. Less than seven years later, the firm has grown to more than a billion in assets while remaining deeply focused on a highly-specialized client base and an unusually hands-on service model. What makes this story particularly interesting isn’t just the growth, it’s the thinking behind it. Michael’s perspective was shaped long before he entered wealth management. After serving more than two decades in the Navy, he brought a leadership philosophy centered on accountability, discipline and what he calls steamboat people, those who keep moving forward regardless of conditions, that mindset continues to influence how he builds his team, serves clients and evaluates opportunities. In this episode, we discuss the decision to leave Merrill, the realities of launching a fully independent RIA, why specialization can accelerate growth, the evolving role of custodians and technology and why he believes exceptional client service remains one of the industry’s most durable competitive advantages. Because Michael’s experience suggests that growth isn’t always the result of finding more opportunities, sometimes it’s the result of creating the freedom to execute the vision you already had so let’s jump in. Michael, thank you so much for joining us today. For starters, can you walk us through your background and what brought you to the world of wealth management? Michael Smith: Jason, thank you so much for the opportunity to be here today, I do listen to the podcast a lot especially before I left Mother Merrill. But my background and how I got into financial services is really distinct because I was on the board of JDRF back in the day and the national sponsor for JDRF was UBS PaineWebber and they’re like, “Mike, why don’t you be a financial advisor?” And my master’s degree was actually a finance and accounting in portfolio management because I’ve managed my own portfolio for years and years and so, when I couldn’t get a job, I just fell into it because I couldn’t get a job and I needed a job. That was 21 years ago, Memorial Day so that’s how I got into this industry. Jason Diamond: It’s a unique background, it’s super interesting and I want to talk more about it. You mentioned Mother Merrill, we’ll certainly get there. Before we do, give us a little bit of context on the current business you operate, Emerald Advisors, any context you can share on size, number of staff, types of clients you serve would be great. Michael Smith: Sure. So, we launched Emerald in 2019, November 2019 with about 85 clients and you always talk about this on the podcast how scared it is to launch and go independent. And I would say we took over about 95% of our clients that we wanted to bring over and today we’re at about 230 clients, I think we have some onboarding right now, we have just over a billion of assets. So, we launched with the 85 clients and around 350, 385 million, now we’re over a billion. Jason Diamond: Good for you. Michael Smith: Thank you. And I launched with four employees and we’re now at 11. And I would give a shout-out to one of my key employees because, when I launched, I actually hired somebody that had no experience with us and that was really a good thing because that allowed that person to really focus on operations and back office stuff while my business partner Emily and I were able to focus on bringing on the clients and alleviating any issues that they may have or thought. Jason Diamond: So, meaning you hired somebody basically immediately upon launch to help you with the transition and with this next chapter? Michael Smith: Correct. I hired them before but they started the day we launched. Jason Diamond: Brilliant, I love it. Oh, let’s definitely talk more about that because I think that’s a great strategy for … You’re right, you said it in a joking manner now because you’re seven years past but it’s a very real fear that advisors have and I think it’s worth talking more about. I want to mention too you have, obviously, built this business and grown this business dramatically. I don’t want to make this episode about the pandemic but you moved the business at a, certainly, a unique time. Did it impact your growth at all? Did you feel like you hit a brick wall? Just curious about your thoughts. Michael Smith: No, Jason, that’s a great observation. I would venture to say that the pandemic was actually a good thing for us. Jason Diamond: Interesting. Michael Smith: And I say that because, all of a sudden, you could hit pause because everyone was relearning how to do business, how do we do client reviews, how do we communicate with clients in a environment. So, I think the pandemic allowed us to just really reset our expectations visiting with clients because I used to fly a lot because I have clients in 38 different states so this has actually been, not just good for me, but good for the industry because I think it’s reset our expectations that we don’t have to be every day with a client facing. Jason Diamond: I agree with that largely and it’s true of our business too, by the way, it’s certainly reshaped the way people expect to be communicated with. I think Zoom has become much more mainstream, phone calls and we’ve heard from many other advisors who say something similar. I was just curious because you moved so close to or if there was an impact but I get, honestly, I think you’re right, it allowed you to have this nice natural inflection point and almost like flipping a switch of a clean slate. Michael Smith: It allowed us to learn the processes too. So, we launched in November 1st, by March we were in lockdown and so it gave us the opportunity to take several months of just learning the processes of how to be an RIA, it was pretty good. Jason Diamond: Absolutely. So, one of the things you mentioned in that was the way in which you serve clients and I’d read something funny and I think it was around the time of your move. You were talking about that, Merrill, you had a manager who spoke about that you would overserve your clients, you serve clients too much, tell me about that. Michael Smith: That was such an interesting topic because I got called down to the ops officer’s office and they’re like, “Ugh, Mike.” And it brought my admin down with me and they’re like, “Mike, these reports that you’re taking care of your clients too much,” and I’m like, “What do you mean?” “Well, you’re overservicing them.” Jason, I literally had to go back and Google the word overservicing because I was like, “How do you overservice the client? I’m not making their bed.” It was just so funny to me that I got counsel for overservicing clients when we’re in a client-facing job and I think that was part of the catalyst. Jason Diamond: Tell me more about what they meant, you think. Michael Smith: Hindsight, I think they … I like to take care of people which means I’m very intuitive towards taxes, I understand how the tax code works, I understand how everything impacts their bottom line. So, when we’re doing deferred comp enrollments or 401(k) enrollments or I’m a big believer in Roth 401(k)s and backdoor Roths and I’ve been doing them for years, I think what Mother Merrill wanted at that time was us not to do that. And, again, nothing against Merrill, I get it but this is how they wanted us to act and I wasn’t in that mold, I was taking care of clients to a much deeper depth is how I would say it. Jason Diamond: And I think that speaks to you outgrew the model not necessarily the firm. I think Merrill does a lot of things really well, you would agree with that, I think given that you built 85 clients and 350 million in assets is nothing to sneeze at. But the model that it seems like you value client service and an integrated client service experience of that and the wirehouse model oftentimes doesn’t put a premium on that. Tell me about your ethos or your thoughts around client service today and what being independent enables you to do. Michael Smith: So, that’s an interesting observation because one of my clients actually just mentioned to me that the reason we’re growing so much is because of our service model and the fact that we deliver a tremendous amount of value over just portfolio management. I said my managers is in portfolio management, I don’t do that any longer, I have a staff that handles that for me but it’s really the servicing of the clients because they don’t know what we know and I think servicing the client is the most important thing that we can do today. Jason Diamond: Give me some examples of what you mean by servicing the client in a more holistic way. I agree with you, by the way, portfolio management, table stakes, financial planning, table stakes, tell me more about what you mean. Michael Smith: By that I mean we do a quarterly review on tax. So, a lot of people don’t understand how taxes work and how estimated taxes work. So, estimated taxes are January 1st to March 31st, January 1st to May 31st, January 1st to August 31st, that’s how you do your estimated tax payments, you figure out what that is. And for compensated employees where they have RSUs that come in at different times of the year or different grants or exercise their options at a different time, that can affect their estimated tax liability and I’m not big on giving Uncle Sam any more money than they have to have until they need it. And then everyone doesn’t understand how the penalties and interest works on the IRS. And I’m big on the tax payments because that’s where we can add a lot of value for not a lot of time and we integrate it with our portfolio so we know what we’re doing with our gains. And I happen to reside in Washington State which has a long-term capital gains tax rate once you surpass about 270,000 of long-term capital gains. So, it’s super important for us to be aware of this and that’s how we service them. We also help them with their rebalancing of their 401(k)s, things that wirehouses cannot supposed to do, we are not supposed to be helping them with some of their aspects of life. Jason Diamond: Yup. That’s what I was alluding to earlier, it’s limitations on the model, not because they’re bad models, it’s just a different way, a different ethos around client service. You mentioned RSUs and corporate employees, I know that’s a niche you have is around concentrated stock positions and equity comp plans. I guess let me ask you two different questions around this. First of all, why that niche? Interested. And then, second of all, do you think a team needs to have a specialization to be competitive these days or do you think it’s okay just to be like, “My job is to be the best advisor and I want to service assets wherever those assets may come from?” Michael Smith: Another great observation. I’m going to address the niche first and foremost. I think, and I talked to R.J. Shook’s staff just recently, and having a niche gives you a specialization and it also accelerates your growth factor. If you serve a niche and you’re very good at that niche, then that word gets around. If you’re a jack of all trades, you can do lots of things but I don’t think you’re focused and you’re not hitting the right numbers that I like to see. And I think that would be my theme is the niche allows you to focus on a very specific type of ideal client, that’s a Schwab thing where you have an ideal client persona and our firm has an ideal client persona. As far as having the equity comp, I absolutely was one of the teams at Merrill Lynch that was equity compensation designated, I managed a couple of plans. My exposure to that, Jason, I haven’t thought about this in a very long time, came from UBS where I had team members that were colleagues that were associated with the Nextel Sprint plan. And I always thought that you’re taking care of the top executives but, really, my background being in the military was how do we take care of the troops, the troops, I call them sailors, and how do we educate those sailors. And one of the things I’ve always said in my entire career in the military and I still say to this day is 50% of every bonus or a promotion or something like that should go to long-term savings. So, I use that same mentality with RSUs, with stock options, with bonuses. Set that aside, let that grow because you’re not used to spending it and you will learn to spend what you make. Jason Diamond: I think that’s a great reason, it’s super smart and I love your explanation, it was a very simplistic way. Honestly, even I hadn’t thought about that around your niche, I think, becomes almost like a force multiplier for your own growth because it’s much easier to become the guy in X, Y, Z vertical than to be the guy in every financial advisor of America, across America. Let me ask you a follow-up question, you mentioned the ideal client persona. I spend a lot of time at our firm thinking about this as well, what does your ideal client persona look like. How do you think about an opportunity though that differs from that persona? So, it’s great. Obviously, everybody, it’s easy, you get somebody who’s your perfect prospect, they walk in the front door, sign me up. But when you get something that’s not down the fairway for you, is it just I evaluate it on a one-off basis or are you super disciplined to that approach because it’s who your firm is? Michael Smith: I truly haven’t given that a whole lot of thought but I will tell you how I would handle that because I am handling it with some one-offs. I like the opportunity because you’re stretching your brain in that you’re thinking about how somebody else is reacting so you’d never know. So, I like it from a learning perspective but I also know it comes with a lot of other baggage, I’ll call it baggage, because, all of a sudden, they want to short the market, they want to go long-short strategies. So, all of a sudden, they’re not in our niche and, all of a sudden, they’re taking a lot of time, they’re draining our time so I think you got to be very careful about what you wish for. And there’s a lot of great advisors out there that will walk circles around these topics that I’m like, “Okay, I would rather refer somebody so they get the right experience than give them the wrong experience.” Jason Diamond: I absolutely love that answer. The bow you just put on it, I think, is the appropriate way in my mind to put a bow. At the end of the day, wouldn’t you rather service somebody more optimally even if you don’t believe it’s yourself, I agree with that. I want to ask you one more point on the client service piece. I was playing around on your website and, on your service model, you have health as a component of the client experience of your diagram. Why do you think health matters in a financial context? Michael Smith: I always believed in a healthy mind and a healthy body will bring so much joy to you and I think health is just part of your persona. If you don’t take care of yourself and your body and your mind, then it doesn’t matter what I do, I think you got to start with health. So, I’m very big on the executive physicals, I routinely require all of our staff to have an annual physical. And, again, they’re young people but you got to have these annual … I live and breathe going to see a doctor every year to do my annual physical, not because I think I’m pretty good health, I still run, I do a lot of things but I think your life starts with being healthy. Jason Diamond: Yeah, it’s refreshing to hear that, no doubt. It’s funny to think about but 2019 is a long time ago now and, in RIA world, I almost think of it like dog years. You’ve been around the block now for a little while so I’m curious how have you seen this space change since you launched in 2019? Michael Smith: In 2019, I didn’t know what I was doing, I could barely get out a wet paper bag but I do think it’s changed dramatically. I would say the biggest thing I’ve seen in just the six and a half, almost seven years is the rise of the mega RIAs and how they’re going to shape the industry. Everyone talked about fee compression at Merrill Lynch. When I was at Merrill, we talked about fee compression, then they talked about robo-advisors and now they’re talking about artificial intelligence replacing advisors, I don’t believe that and I don’t think that’s going to happen in the RIA space. What I see the RIA space maturing is into these very big mega firms as well as these independent RIAs like myself that serve a very niche market where we can walk in our lane. The ability to transact today is so much easier as an RIA than it was at a wirehouse as well because we have instant access to technology. My military background, my Navy background says make a decision right, wrong or different, if you don’t like it afterwards or you get new data, course change. So, in our industry, we can change on a notice. I hired a tech firm last year, I didn’t like the experience nine months into it, guess what, they’re not coming back. So, I can do that but you can’t do that at the bigger firms and even the bigger mega firms would have a hard time navigating a change just like that on a dime. Jason Diamond: You bring up an interesting point. To the extent you face competition, do you find yourself competing more against traditional wirehouse type firms or RIAs like yourself, mega caps RIAs? Are your clients attuned to any of this? Michael Smith: That’s an observation I haven’t thought of either there, Jason. I would say I don’t feel that I have a … I know there’s competition out there but we have a growth issue more than we have anything else so I don’t … I can’t take on the clients that want to become my clients so I’m not competing with people too much. Jason Diamond: A capacity issue, you mean? Michael Smith: Yeah, I have a capacity issue. Jason Diamond: I think you’re not alone in that. How can I even think about competition and the like when … A lot of advisors would probably say that. I want to talk more about the capacity situation but, before I do, let’s talk a little more about the RIA setup. Who do you custody with, remind us, and why or how did you arrive at that decision? Michael Smith: Yeah. So, when I launched, I went with Schwab, Schwab is a phenomenal partner, they helped me get a lot of stuff done, I couldn’t have done it without Schwab. During the pandemic, I realized that I should probably … So, remember, during the pandemic, we had a lot of issues with the banking industry, it was almost like a financial crisis but in a very compressed time. So, during the COVID, I decided to add Fidelity as another custodian so now I have two custodians and I opened accounts on both sides of the house but I like the custodians that are there to help you, they’re very good at what they do. I don’t even consider them a competitor and they aren’t competitors, they have their own branch so I don’t consider them competitors, I think they’re my partners and both Charles Schwab and Fidelity are good partners. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I think that’s the healthy way to look at the custody relationship. That’s a very common approach, I think, is launching with one custodian and then adding a secondary custodian or a tertiary custodian down the line for one reason or another so I appreciate you sharing that because we get those types of nuts and bolts questions a lot so I figured I’d ask you. One last question on the setup and then we’ll shift gears. Has anything been a negative? So, you talked about leaving Mother Merrill behind and, Mother Merrill, we use it facetiously but obviously it implies a degree of comfort and the homeland so I’m curious if you miss anything. Michael Smith: I miss the camaraderie of being with a bunch of other folks. I mentioned this when I first launched, I mentioned it year over year with my team, the one thing that we miss as an RIA and, again, Dynasty has their benefits as well and the mega RIAs have their benefits but, if you’re a true independent like myself, we get to go to conferences that we want to and that’s a timing issue, really, a time constraint. But one thing Merrill and Morgan, JPMorgan, and the other big wirehouses have as well as the megas, they have the ability to put conferences together for their advisors or their administrators and have this education. That’s the one thing that, I think, would evolve in the RIA industry in the future as well. They’re not my competitors, they’re my business colleagues. And if we think of them as competitors, and a lot of people do because I don’t want to share my client information or what I do with my competitor because they may steal them, if you’re that insecure, then you’re probably not the right advisor in the first place. Jason Diamond: I don’t disagree with that. It’s interesting too, I hear two common answers to that question, not about Merrill but just about somebody who’s broken away, what do you miss about the captive firm world. Either on this podcast or just in conversations with advisors, brand comes up a lot and then the point you just raised. I’ll even hear like, “Hey, forget the conferences and the trainings, just being able to have an office where I’ve got eight other advisors on a row for me, it’s a little bit of a different setup than in the independent space,” and I think that’s just a reality of you take the good with the bad. And for other advisors, by the way, one of the things I want to ask you about to this point is do you believe that there are advisors that are just better served in the W2 traditional firm world or do you think that every advisor should be looking at the RIA space? Michael Smith: I think that wirehouse serves a great purpose and- Jason Diamond: Okay, me too. Michael Smith: … there’s a lot of great people that are great advisors in that wirehouse, they need the structure. What I hadn’t alluded to is, and I mentioned this to a former manager from Merrill Lynch of mine just recently, actually, I was like, “I don’t think advisors realize what it takes to run a business.” I’m not trying to sugarcoat it, running an RIA is hard work, it takes a lot of your time day in and day out to run a business as well as taking care of and servicing your clients so I do think the wirehouse venue is the right way to go. And, Jason, I want to go back to one other thing about your identity. I launched as the Smith Group because that’s what I was known at Merrill Lynch. Within three or four months, I changed that name to a firm because I did not want to be associated with it. So, when you’re at one of the wirehouses, you’re known as your team name or something of that sort, I didn’t want to be known as that, I wanted to be known as Emerald Advisors not the Smith Group because, all of a sudden, you have a single point of failure. So, brand identity, it’s not so unique inside the wirehouse because it’s a team name versus Merrill or Morgan Stanley or something like that. Jason Diamond: It’s a good segue because I’ll tell you where my mind goes when you bring that up. My mind goes is you’re smart in a way that you might not even realize or maybe you do realize which is that, if and when it ever comes time to sell this business, it is probably more valuable without your name attached to it or maybe not. But in some way, shape or form, as an RIA, you have an obligation to be thinking about that or it’s probably on your radar, maybe not an obligation. Have you given an ounce of thought to M&A either acquiring businesses, growing in that way or, ultimately, when you succeed out of this business and what the RIA space enables you to do? Michael Smith: To answer that question, yes. Everyone’s thinking about merger and acquisition, I think about succession planning from day one. I actually thought about I’m a big team person, I come from the submarine force where everyone is a key player on a submarine, every single person has a job and responsibility on a nuclear submarine. So, inside the financial services industry, I know Merrill Lynch was very big on teaming, I understand Morgan Stanley is as well because teaming gives them a breadth of responsibility where the responsibilities are shared. So, mergers and acquisitions or selling my business, I think, if you’re not thinking about that … And I’m not thinking about selling my business because that’s a distraction to me. If I needed the money, then I would’ve went to a wirehouse and that’s okay, you monetize your life’s work. Today, I’m all about what’s right for the client, what’s right for my team and what’s right for where I want to be in the next 10 to 20 years. So, I am growing, I do want to grow, I’m looking at opening offices in probably three locations in the next 24 months or so. Jason Diamond: Well, that’s what I was going to say, plenty of advisors I think would say the same, I have a lot of runway. But what about the other side of this equation which is you’ve had tremendous organic growth, you’ve tripled your client base, you’ve more than tripled the asset base, have you thought about acquisition as a mean to jet fuel the inorganic growth side of things? Michael Smith: I have but not in the typical sense that you’re looking at as buying a book of business. I want to partner with like-minded advisors that share that common thread of taking care of clients where you can serve as their trusted counsel and sit in the meetings with their attorneys and sit in the meetings with the accountants and give them sage counsel that you can only do because you’ve been with the family for 20 years. You know this family and that, not always, but I think that’s missed a lot in other firms. Jason Diamond: Yeah, I think that’s fair. I just thought of something else that you brought up. You brought Dynasty so I’m going to ask … I’m going to pull on this thread. That implies to me that you’re at least loosely aware of the supportive independence models that are out there yet you chose a very independent, autonomous path, why? Michael Smith: Because I didn’t know what I was doing. Jason Diamond: Fair. Michael Smith: Let’s be honest, I like Dynasty, I talked with Dynasty when I left. I talked to them all, I talked to Rockefeller, I talked to Morgan, I talked to Dynasty and then, when push came to shove, I wanted to be Mike Smith and launch my own firm and learn. And I will tell you, you learn drinking through a fire hose and we did that, we learned, I know the mistakes. What I didn’t want to do is just go to someplace where this is the stuff you’re going to have to use. So, I think Dynasty is a great launching platform, I think there’s other ones out there that are similar to Dynasty or the Rockefellers or the Morgans, it’s truly what you’re trying to achieve in life. What do you want for you and your clients and I always put my clients before me because I’ve always had this lifelong thing of, you do the right thing, you’re going to get taken care of. Jason Diamond: Yeah. And that’s a very common analysis, by the way, and it’s very common too for big advisors like yourself to say I did my homework across all of those different categories. I looked at the traditional wirehouses and regional firms and boutique firms, I looked at the independent broker dealers, I looked at the support platforms and the aggregators and the roll-ups and here’s ultimately what I landed on and why. Did you always know that though or was that something that it took you a diligence process to figure out? There was plenty of advisors, by the way, who come to us and they’re like, “I knew for the last five years that I was sitting there I was launching an RIA someday.” Michael Smith: Yeah. I did not know that and, to be honest with you, hindsight, I think one of those partners probably could have made me a little bit better at first because then I could have focused on clients versus focusing on, hey, how to open a business, who’s your technology … We talked about custodians and some other things but we didn’t talk about technology, how do you go find that technology. Where’s your email address come from? Who’s your chief compliance officer? When it resides on you, you got to look in the mirror. So, I think those parties out there that provide that for brand-new advisors launching could be very beneficial. I had in my mind what I needed to do and I knew I’m very frugal so mine boiled down to how much money I wanted to spend, to be honest with you. Jason Diamond: I think it is a cost benefit analysis, it is. It’s absolutely … Because if you list the functions of a support platform on paper and you showed it to somebody who didn’t know the industry, they would say, “Why on earth wouldn’t you do this? They’re taking off your plate compliance and tech and custody and the like,” and the answer is because there’s a cost associated with it and plenty of advisors decide what you decide, I wanted … Or I just wanted a greater degree of autonomy and freedom, to your point, the name on the door piece, I wanted this to be mine. Michael Smith: And, Jason, I think it also goes to the uncertainty. I had never done anything since Navy, financial advising and then launching. So, for me, I was launching with four employees I had to take care of and here I was going to hire a third party that I was going to have to spend X amount on and I didn’t even know what my income was going to be. That’s different if you’re a multi-billion dollar FA coming out of a wirehouse, the monetary dynamics are different. Jason Diamond: Agreed. Okay, here’s a good one for you. We get this concept from advisors, from firms, from private equity that a billion dollars in assets is like this magic number in our industry. Do you feel like anything’s changed now that you’re at a billion and what’s the next chapter for Emerald Advisors? Is it just continuing on this steady trajectory and serving clients and trust that everything else comes with that? Michael Smith: I go back and forth on a billion, everyone thinks that’s the right number, the biggest number that you need but I think it’s just an arbitrary numbers because it didn’t define who I was. And a lot of people define success at a billion, they define success that you’re a successful firm at a billion. I think I was a successful firm at 300 million, I was a successful financial advisor with 20 clients in 2005. I would say a billion is a multiplier, what I would tell new advisors out there today is gather assets. The more assets you have, the more revenue you generate. The more revenue you generate, the more money you can put in your pocket which means the longer you can stay in the industry. The problem with the industry is an attrition problem, not anything else. So, assets just give us the ability to have revenue which gives us the ability to grow. Jason Diamond: And is that the plan? Keep adding assets, keep growing one client at a time with the focus though, obviously, on what makes you which is a very client-centric service model. Michael Smith: Correct. There’s a lot of things I want to do in the next couple of years and expanding our footprint is our biggest one with the right partners and then just keep adding. I have a business development officer that I’m probably offer a job to here pretty soon and things are going well. Jason Diamond: Yeah, that’s great. You mentioned the tech stack and the other components of the business and I hear you on the frugal cost-benefit analysis. But who did you turn to for some of those early decisions, was it Schwab primarily who helped hold your hand through that? Michael Smith: Schwab was very good at helping me identify the tech stack at first and the tech stack is actually the one consistent, there’s a lot of things I’ve been consistent on but tech is one that I’ve stayed with them. I launched with RightSize, now they’re Advisory, they’re very good, they do the right job for us and I’m big on cybersecurity. So, tech was helpful from Schwab, Schwab helped us with that. Jason Diamond: So, we spoke a little bit about your naval experience but, I’m curious, can you tell us how has your naval experience shaped your perception or your experience in wealth management? Michael Smith: My Navy path was a lot different than many officers. I served 12 years as an enlisted person before I got my direct commission as a Mustang officer, typically called limited duty officers or loud, dumb and obnoxious as I like to say. But that experience gave me a unique perspective because I was able to be the enlisted side and officer which are the workers and then the management side so I had both experiences which was unique. When I was commissioned, Admiral Jerry Ellis, a submarine admiral that commissioned me, heard this lesson to the podium, he was just talking about me in this point but he said, “There are three kinds of people in every organization. You have rowboat people who need to be pushed, you have sailboat people who move whenever the conditions are favorable and then there’s steamboat people, they move continuously through calm or storm.” And he said, “This is Ensign Michael Smith,” he said, “Make your course.” And that’s always stood with me because you do have those three types of people in life. You got people that are just … They’re robo people, they go until they get tired. You got sailboat people that go wherever the wind blows them and then you got steamboat people that chart their own course. I would say for advisors out there make your course or just be happy with what you’re doing. But for some of us hard chargers, I think that analogy has stayed with me my entire career. Jason Diamond: It’s fantastic. I love the analogy, great naval tie in also. Thanks for sharing that. We got time for one more question. You have a fascinating background, a fascinating path to the industry, obviously, an incredibly disciplined approach around client service, any parting thoughts, words of wisdom especially as it relates to growth? That’s what strikes me most about your story is the growth that your move unlocked and that’s what every advisor who listens to our show is looking for. Michael Smith: I’m going to give another plug to Schwab on this. We actually were fortunate and I got their consulting group to come in right afterwards and I’m a big believer in having offsite. So, I’ve had an offsite, two offsites a year for my team and it’s the entire team unlike the wirehouses where you don’t take your admins and stuff like that. I take my entire team to an offsite and we group up on what we’re trying to achieve and have goals and objectives for the year. Schwab allowed us to use their consultants and we came up with our ideal client persona. Teams or firms that have this model become high performing. When you become high performing, growth becomes the outcome. I couldn’t do anything but grow. Jason, I couldn’t not grow because I had this ideal client persona, I knew how I was going to do it, it was measurable. So, growth becomes the outcome and, if you hold people responsible, then we’re all going to grow together and it’s a fun outcome. Jason Diamond: Fantastic, it’s a great place to end. Thank you so much for sharing your expertise with us, I can’t wait to see what the next chapter holds for Emerald, this has been a lot of fun. Michael Smith: Jason, thank you so much. I appreciate everything you do for the industry as well. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients. But are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? Is a book written with you in mind? It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

With the Co-Authors of The Greater Game and Dan Sullivan of Strategic Coach and John Bowen of CEG Insights Louis Diamond speaks with Dan Sullivan of Strategic Coach® and John Bowen of CEG Insights about founder dependency, enterprise value, and the architecture behind scalable businesses. In Summary Many advisory firms grow successfully while remaining highly dependent on their founders. Dan Sullivan and John Bowen argue that the difference between a successful practice and a valuable enterprise comes down to architecture. Louis sits down with the co-authors of The Greater Game to discuss founder dependency, enterprise value, intellectual property, and why some businesses scale beyond their owners while others do not. The conversation offers advisors a framework for thinking differently about growth, succession, and long-term optionality. The Storyline Many advisors spend their careers helping clients build valuable businesses. Far fewer stop to ask whether their own firms are being built the same way. That tension sits at the center of Louis Diamond’s conversation with Dan Sullivan, co-founder of Strategic Coach®, and John Bowen, founder of CEG Elevate Group and CEG Insights. Their new book, The Greater Game, challenges a common assumption about growth: that bigger businesses are simply the result of working harder, adding more clients, or improving existing systems. Instead, they argue that enterprise value is created through architecture—the deliberate design of a business that can scale, transfer, and thrive without its founder at the center. The discussion introduces a framework for understanding why some entrepreneurs remain trapped in optimization while others build enterprises that compound in value over time. Along the way, Dan and John explore founder dependency, intellectual property, succession planning, strategic partnerships, and the role advisors can play in helping entrepreneurial clients navigate each stage of growth. For advisors, the framework creates an important mirror. The same forces that limit enterprise value for entrepreneurial clients often exist inside advisory firms themselves. The result is a conversation that extends well beyond business growth and into questions of optionality, transferability, and what ultimately makes a firm valuable. Topics Covered Enterprise Value Creation Founder Dependency Risk Business Architecture vs. Optimization Intellectual Property & Scalability Strategic Partnerships & Leverage Succession Planning & Optionality Legacy, Impact & the “Greater Game” Mindset > Download a transcript of this episode… Listen and Learn Highlights for Advisors What is The Greater Game—and why does it matter to advisors? (17:57) Dan and John introduce the framework behind their new book and explain why advisors should think about it both for entrepreneurial clients and for their own businesses. Why do only a small percentage of entrepreneurs create exponential enterprise value? (22:24) The discussion explores the difference between “architects” and “optimizers” and why most business owners remain focused on improving what exists rather than designing what comes next. Why is founder dependency such a significant valuation risk? (35:00) John explains how businesses that depend on a single individual often struggle to scale, transfer, or command premium valuations. How does expertise become intellectual property—and why does that matter? (35:00) The transition from expertise to transferable systems may be the most important bridge in the entire framework, creating leverage that extends beyond the founder. What prevents many advisors from fully serving entrepreneurial clients? (18:00) The conversation examines why most advisors are well-equipped for traditional planning needs but less prepared for the governance, succession, and enterprise-value challenges entrepreneurs eventually face. What does the next game look like after you’ve already “won”? (50:00) Dan and John discuss why many successful entrepreneurs and advisors eventually shift their focus from accumulation to significance, impact, and legacy. What’s the single most important move an entrepreneur can make? (52:30) Dan shares the concept of Unique Ability® and explains why simplifying around your highest-value strengths often creates the greatest multiplier effect. Key Takeaways Enterprise value is created through architecture, not effort. Many successful businesses continue to grow while remaining highly dependent on their founders. The firms that command premium valuations are often built differently from the start. Founder dependency acts as a hidden valuation discount. The more a business depends on one person, the more difficult it becomes to scale, transfer, or sell at a premium. Intellectual property is often the bridge between a practice and an enterprise. When expertise becomes codified, transferable, and repeatable, value begins to exist independently of the founder. Advisors and entrepreneurs often face the same challenge. The same founder-dependency issues advisors help clients solve frequently exist within their own firms. Strategic partnerships create leverage that expertise alone cannot. Many of the most successful entrepreneurs grow through collaboration, ecosystems, and coordinated expertise rather than attempting to solve every challenge themselves. Most advisors are trained to solve early-stage problems. Entrepreneurial clients eventually require guidance around succession, governance, scalability, and enterprise value—areas that extend beyond traditional planning. The next stage of growth is often not about growth at all. For many successful entrepreneurs, the question eventually shifts from accumulation to significance, impact, and the legacy they want their business to create. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY5xOB8GTQY Quotable Moments “The exit multiple is downstream of the architecture.” “The difference between a three-times and a fifteen-times multiple is often whether the business depends on the founder.” “You have to simplify in order to multiply.” “We’re not talking about a 10x game anymore. We’re talking about a 100x game.”     FAQs Why do some advisory firms command higher valuation multiples than others? Dan Sullivan and John Bowen argue that valuation is often determined long before a transaction occurs. Firms that reduce founder dependency, codify intellectual property, and build transferable systems typically command higher multiples than those built around a single rainmaker. What is founder dependency and how does it impact enterprise value? Founder dependency occurs when clients, revenue, and decision-making remain concentrated around one individual. While those businesses can be highly successful, advisors find they are often more difficult to scale, transfer, or sell. What is the difference between an architect and an optimizer? An optimizer focuses on improving an existing business model. An architect builds systems, intellectual property, and structures designed to create leverage, scalability, and long-term enterprise value. What does Dan Sullivan mean when he says “100x is easier than 2x”? The concept challenges entrepreneurs to stop thinking incrementally. Rather than working harder within the current model, transformational growth often comes from redesigning the model itself through better leverage, collaboration, and systems. How can advisors better serve entrepreneurial clients? Many entrepreneurial clients eventually need guidance beyond investment management, including succession planning, governance, intellectual property strategy, and enterprise value creation. Understanding where a client sits in their business journey can help advisors provide more relevant advice and coordination. What is the expertise trap and why does it matter for advisory firms? The expertise trap occurs when critical knowledge, relationships, and processes remain inside the founder’s head. Until that expertise becomes transferable and repeatable, enterprise value often remains limited regardless of growth. Dan Sullivan and John Bowen argue that valuation is often determined long before a transaction occurs. Firms that reduce founder dependency, codify intellectual property, and build transferable systems typically command higher multiples than those built around a single rainmaker. Founder dependency occurs when clients, revenue, and decision-making remain concentrated around one individual. While those businesses can be highly successful, advisors find they are often more difficult to scale, transfer, or sell. An optimizer focuses on improving an existing business model. An architect builds systems, intellectual property, and structures designed to create leverage, scalability, and long-term enterprise value. The concept challenges entrepreneurs to stop thinking incrementally. Rather than working harder within the current model, transformational growth often comes from redesigning the model itself through better leverage, collaboration, and systems. Many entrepreneurial clients eventually need guidance beyond investment management, including succession planning, governance, intellectual property strategy, and enterprise value creation. Understanding where a client sits in their business journey can help advisors provide more relevant advice and coordination. The expertise trap occurs when critical knowledge, relationships, and processes remain inside the founder’s head. Until that expertise becomes transferable and repeatable, enterprise value often remains limited regardless of growth. Related Resources The Greater Game by Dan Sullivan and John Bowen Strategic Coach® CEG Elevate Group The Greater Game Dashboard Diamond Consultants Advisor Transition Report Dan Sullivan The world’s foremost expert on entrepreneurship in action, Dan Sullivan has spent the past five decades empowering business owners to reach their full potential in both their professional and personal lives. His strong belief in and commitment to the power of the entrepreneur is evident in all areas of his company, Strategic Coach®, and its successful membership community. Dan is married to Babs Smith, his partner in business and in life. They jointly own and operate The Strategic Coach Inc., with offices in Toronto, Chicago, and the UK Dan and Babs reside in Toronto. John Bowen John J. Bowen Jr. is the founder and CEO of CEG Elevate Group, the holding company that includes CEG Worldwide and CEG Insights. Through these companies, he helps elite financial advisors serve fewer, wealthier clients exceptionally well while building more valuable and scalable businesses. Before founding CEG, John spent 26 years as a financial advisor and built a $2 billion wealth management business. That firsthand experience grounds CEG’s work today across advisor coaching, enterprise programs, empirical research through CEG Insights, and practical frameworks for advisors who want to move beyond practice growth to enduring enterprise value. John is the author of 21 books on wealth management, entrepreneurship, and success. His newest book, The Greater Game: Your 100x Blueprint for Exponential Growth, Freedom, and Legacy, co-authored with Dan Sullivan of Strategic Coach, will be published by Hay House Business in May 2026. Today, John and the CEG team work with leading advisors and enterprise firms — including some of the largest advisor organizations in the United States — to help advisors deepen relationships with affluent clients, build scalable practices, and design lives of greater significance. NOTE: The views and opinions expressed by the guests on this podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the views and opinions of Diamond Consultants. Neither Diamond Consultants nor the guests on this podcast are compensated in any way for their participation. View the transcript of this episode… Architecting 100x Growth: A “How-To” From Legends Dan Sullivan and John Bowen A conversation with Louis Diamond and Co-Authors of The Greater Game, Dan Sullivan of Strategic Coach and John Bowen of CEG Insights.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Architecting 100x Growth: A “How-To” From Legends Dan Sullivan and John Bowen, a conversation with the industry’s top coaches and co-authors of The Greater Game. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Most entrepreneurs and many advisors spend years optimizing for growth without realizing they’re building a business that still depends entirely on them. Revenue and complexity grow; enterprise value, transferability, and freedom often lag far behind. Dan Sullivan and John Bowen argue that the issue isn’t effort or intelligence; it’s architecture. No doubt these are familiar names in the wealth management industry, but just to set the stage, Dan is the co-founder of Strategic Coach, and John is the founder of CEG Elevate Group and CEG Insights. Together, they spent decades coaching and studying high-performing entrepreneurs and advisory firms. Their latest book, one they joined forces on, The Greater Game, lays out a very different framework for thinking about growth, one built around scalability, transferrable value, and long-term leverage rather than incremental optimization. What makes this conversation especially relevant for advisors is that the framework cuts both ways. It applies to the entrepreneurial clients that advisors serve, as well as to the advisory firms themselves. And in many cases, the same founder dependency and expertise trap that limits a client’s enterprise value is quietly limiting the advisor’s business too. We talk about the difference between operators and architects, why 100 times growth can actually be easier than two times growth, where businesses tend to stall as they scale and how advisors can start thinking differently about their own firms, particularly when it comes to enterprise value, succession, and long-term optionality. It’s rare access to a conversation with two of our industry’s legends whose advice and counsel has not only helped to transform the business lives of many of our listeners, but also my own. So let’s get to it. Dan and John, thank you both for joining us today. Dan Sullivan: Thank you, Lou. It’s a real pleasure. John Bowen: I’ve had the privilege of joining you before, but never with my co-author, Dan Sullivan, and I’m excited to share what we’re doing because I think it can make a big impact in our advisor industry. Louis Diamond: No doubt about it. Yeah, this has been an interview I’ve been very excited to host. So let’s jump right in. Dan Sullivan, I think you are a man that needs little introduction. So many advisors in the industry are fans or clients of your firm, Strategic Coach, but for those who aren’t as familiar or need a refresh, can you just give some quick context into why you started Strategic Coach and what the company does today? Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Well, it goes back to 1974. I was a copywriter at BBDO, the Canadian branch of BBDO, big global advertising agency. It still is. But I’ve been sort of a lifetime coach. I remember once when my mother finally caught up with what I was doing in life and I was describing what I was doing, she says, “Well, you were doing that when you were a child. You were talking to adults and you were asking adults about their experiences.” And I said, “Yeah, I could do this when I was eight or nine years old, but it took me a long time to get a business model wrapped around it.” But I jumped out in 1974 and started coaching anybody, but it actually turned out that entrepreneurs were the best people to coach because they would write a check on the spot and they would make a decision on the spot and I needed cashflow and I did it. So I’ve been personally, as a Strategic Coach, which was named by someone else. You’re just out there trying to get cashflow to pay for the rent. So I started in ’74, and I was lucky and it really relates to your target audience, Lou. Right off the bat, I got what are called top-of-the-table life insurance agents. And that was really, really great because life insurance agents are purely a conceptual business. So someone can get a new idea at breakfast and they can have a new business by dinnertime just because they can change their mindset. And that moved on. And I did that for 15 years, just one-on-one, 1970s, 1980s. And then, I’d had enough experience that we turned it into a workshop program in 1989. We’ve been at it ever since. So I was at a talk. Joe Polish is a great friend of ours, Joe Polish with Genius Network. And he had a speaker there, and he says, “You’re one of the original gangsters, aren’t you? You’re one of the first people.” And I said, “I don’t know if I’m the original, but I think I’m the only surviving one.” So it’s 52 years that I’ve been doing what I’m doing. And I had the good fortune to meet John in around 2009. John, was that the year? 2009? John Bowen: Yeah, in the little economic downturn that everybody knows about here. Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And John had a great coaching program and we had a great coaching program. And over the years, we’ve talked a lot about what makes a entrepreneur exponential in their thinking. And finally, about two years ago, we decided, let’s write a book about this. And that’s the new book, which is called The Greater Game. That’s where this all started. It’s just been a great pleasure because we sync very well. Louis Diamond: Amazing. And Dan, I think a lot of people likely know you either from Strategic Coach. I know I’m personally a big fan of two of your books and I know of others, The Gap and The Gain and Who Not How. We’re going to talk about your new book, but I think it’d just be helpful. Can you talk about the key premise of some of your prior books, The Gap and The Gain and Who Not How? Dan Sullivan: As a result of my membership, I’m a member in other groups. And so Joe Polish of Genius Network fame, he’s been in my program for 28 years, and I’ve been in his program for 15 years. And there was a writer who was in one of the first Genius Network workshops, and he approached me. And I created a lot of books, but I create small books and they’re self-published. I do a book a quarter. I’m 82 in about three weeks. So when I was 70, I said, “I’m going to give myself a 25-year project. I’ll write 100 books in 100 quarters.” And this is quarter number 47, and I’m writing my 47th book. But they’re little books. They’re 60, 70 pages. They’re one-idea books. And Ben Hardy, who was, at that time, the number one writer on Medium, which is a blogging type medium, he approached me, and he said, “I know you don’t write big books and you don’t have publisher books. But,” he said, “if you ever did,” he said, “I’d like to collaborate.” And that was a great good fortune on my part. So we produced three books in five years. The first book was Who Not How. Who Not How basically says when you have a goal, the biggest problem with the goal, you’re excited about the goal, but you’re not excited about doing it. So you find “Whos” who help you and you build teamwork around it. And that was a big seller. And then, we had another concept which was called The Gap and The Gain that entrepreneurs, depending on how they measure their progress, can be perpetually unhappy or they can be perpetually motivated. And it all depends on how they measure their progress, how they measure their goal setting and their goal achievement. And then the third book, which has really turned out to be the big one, up until this book, this book will be bigger. It’s called 10x Is Easier Than 2x. So hence, Coach, everybody has a 10x game plan. Whatever number they want to choose, revenues, personal net worth, whatever, you have a framework of 10x, which is sometime in the future, but you use that future framework for deciding what you’re going to do today that will end up as a 10x result. I thought that was going to be our formula for the rest of my life until I met John. And then John is a great AI practitioner. And I began to realize that that 10x is now becoming 100x for really top-notch entrepreneurs, but the 10x is easier than 2x. And we just crossed the million mark with the three books, which is really good. And it’s great for lead… we’re having people show up and they’ve really bought into what Strategic Coach is. We have a good size company. We’re not a small company. We have 120 team members. We’re in five centers: Los Angeles, Vancouver, Chicago, Toronto and London, England. But it’s been really great because we’ve really grown with technological change and it’s basically, we teach people how to think about their thinking. And Lou, you were in for three years, both in-person and virtual. So you know what the starting structure of it is, but I’m in love with entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are crucial characters on the planet, but mostly they operate alone and what we’ve done is create a community for them. Louis Diamond: Fantastic. Thank you, Dan. And John, I think perfect segue to you, because I know you’ve spent your career serving and helping entrepreneurs as well, mostly within financial services or within wealth management. And you’ve been very kind to share some of your amazing research on advisors serving entrepreneurial clients in the past. But for anyone who’s missed those episodes, similar question for you, can you share what your companies do? CEG Elevate, CEG Insights, your new research, and then we’ll dive into your exciting new book. John Bowen: Thank you, Louis. And Dan and I are very excited about just entrepreneurs in general. Dan is, because he’s working with them directly. The best clients for financial advisors are entrepreneurs, largely, if you’re going to go high net worth, ultra-high net worth. So we have a company, CEG Elevate, which is our parent company. Two of the companies that are really interesting for this podcast is CEG Insights and this is our research arm. And we’ll study about 20,000 high net worth, ultra-high net worth clients this year in depth and 6,000 up to 7,000 we’ll do just of entrepreneurs. And this is in the partnership. Lou, I invited you up to… We were skiing two years ago in Park City and you couldn’t join us. But Dan and I made a deal to do a 25-year partnership studying entrepreneurship, one for Strategic Coach and his coaching clients, but really the opportunity for financial advisors. And it’s probably just as well because I came down, and I think, Dan, you were 80 at the time and I was 69. I’m 70 now. And I was skiing with a whole bunch of 40-year-olds, and they’re all going, “You guys are way too optimistic.” And Dan and I are just getting started on this. And the other company that’s applicable is CEG Worldwide, where we have the privilege of coaching and training some of the top financial advisors, those aspiring, and also working with the enterprises to really help move up market and do this great experience. Louis Diamond: Fantastic. Dan, question for you. What was the core problem you and John were trying to solve in your new book, The Greater Game? What is it that existing frameworks weren’t touching? And then John, I’ll have a follow-up question for you after that. Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Well, by the very nature of what we do, we’re not going for wannabes. We’re not going for entrepreneurs who hope to be really successful someday. We’re engaging with and we’re registering into both of our communities, people who, they’re already great. They’re already doing so many things right, but they’re kind of doing it unconsciously. They just have a unique ability for growth. They have a unique ability for networking and expansion, but the very, very core is they’ve done it on their own. And they’ve done it out of intuition and they’ve done it out of ambition and motivation. But their biggest problem is that they’re really lonely. I’m in my sixth decade now of coaching entrepreneurs, and people say, “Well, what’s the number one problem that entrepreneurs face?” And I said, “Loneliness.” They can’t explain themselves to the family they grew up with. They can’t explain themselves with their lifetime friends. They have thoughts about how they’re operating. And they take enormous pride in their ability to transform difficulties into breakthroughs, but they don’t have anybody to talk to. So what we’ve created is a community where when you walk in the room, everybody in that room immediately understands you. Everybody immediately applauds what you’ve done. Everybody is inspired by you. So my framework is I call, “What you’ve done on your own, you’re great. You’re a winner already, but who do you talk to?” You have to hide a lot of your success because they just won’t understand what it is that actually motivates you. And the beauty of the partnership with John is the vast majority of our clients are in 70 or 80 different industries, so they’re not peculiar. We start off with financial services, especially life insurance. But what I notice is that all the difficulty they get into life is they’re trying to communicate with people who don’t understand them. And what we’re saying is, “Stage one, you did it on your own, you’re great by any standard whatsoever. You check all the boxes for being a successful person, but you don’t really have any way to actually check out how other people are doing this.” And so we’ve created a community, and John has created a community where people, immediately, there’s understanding. And not only that, but there’s opportunity because they’re unique in their own ways. Every one of our entrepreneurs has created a very, very unique pattern of success that if they were with 10 other people, they could learn from this. If they were with 30 other people, they would learn even more. So that’s what we’ve done. So stage two is now joining a community where everybody gets you. Louis Diamond: Interesting. And that’s the premise of the book. We don’t want to have people not buy it, but what is the greater game? What’s the game that folks are playing and pursuing and how do you make it greater? Dan Sullivan: I tell you, what I’ve always been lacking, I’m sort of intuitive like most entrepreneurs are. We’ve done about 300 times growth since we started the program. But it’s intuitive. I don’t have any research to back this up. I’m low on fact finder. I find, generally speaking, the best facts are just the facts that I make up, but at a certain point, you’d like to have some actual research to back me up. So I’ve gone as far as I can go with our company without real research. Then John comes into the picture, and now we got some real research. And I will say this, this is generally true. It’s not just a problem with me that I don’t have research. I find that entrepreneurism is one of the least researched subjects on the planet. And John comes along and he’s done all the backfill for how entrepreneurs actually perform and I’ve got research to prove it. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Yeah, John, question for you. So what is The Greater Game? And then, how do you think it relates to what financial advisors have been missing? John Bowen: One of the things that we as financial advisors all want to work with people who have already won. And there’s no better group than entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs. If we look at people with 25 million or more of investible assets across all households in the US, 90% are entrepreneurs. And at the 5 to 25 million of investible assets, it’s three out of four. So at CEG Worldwide, we’ve always wanted to really understand advisors. And we said we’ll partner with Dan and his passion with entrepreneurs, we’ll go ahead and study them so that we can bring insights on how we can better serve them. And the very first thing we want to do is understand, yeah, there’s very different stages that we see of entrepreneurs and we talk about the whole concept of The Greater Game. And the idea here is we wanted to identify… And I’ll share some PowerPoint slides. I know a lot of us are listening and I just want to walk through this, but Louis will have it in show notes, his team will. We really saw four areas. The first one was level one, stage one was foundation for freedom. They had ambition, the vision, but they really needed security. And Dan calls this, and I love this term, “cash confidence.” But it’s really using a financial advisor to have security. And one of the things, the last time I was on with you, Louis, we talked about there’s 59.2% of entrepreneurs who want to switch advisors because they don’t believe they have that security. And that’s kind of the foundation. And this is why you’re never going to read a more friendly financial advisor book for entrepreneurs than this because in our coaching program, we’re developing workshops and so on to bring this message out. And then the second level is where now we saw… and there were four levels. Dan and I identified 5.4% of these entrepreneurs that were just killing it and they were going through all four levels. The second level was energy for expansion. They were very motivated, they were excited about getting up and really the intellectual property, and Dan’s been one of the big leaders in this, is so much of what we know… And as I go through this too, I want every one of the advisors to think about it’s not only your entrepreneurial clients, this is for you too, is having this intellectual property, getting it out of your head so that your business is not founder-dependent or personality-dependent. You’ve got this enterprise. And then, the third level where it really took off was collaboration and multiplication. And Dan talked about the power of community and this is so big. And for advisors, the community is often working with other professionals, the accountants, the attorneys, the investment bankers. Matter of fact, when we survey, we found that 40% of the people with 25 million or more that they invest with an advisor came through an investment banker. So creating that community, teamwork, having the right team and then autonomy. Can you step away from your practice? The entrepreneurs step away 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, making that independence, moving from the founder-dependent to the enterprise. And the last level was exponential. And this is all along the way, the AI opportunities to accelerate this and augment this is really real, but the agency where the blue ocean, creating new markets, then getting the commitment and courage. And at each of these levels, we saw different entrepreneurs just really taking off. And one of the things that’s so important, Louis, for what we’re talking about today is advisors all are ready to treat stage one, the foundation for freedom, but they don’t really understand the other stages, and that’s really what entrepreneurs want. So if you want to work in this market, it’s very important for you to understand what you can do to help. The difference is often for an entrepreneur, a three to five multiplier versus 15, the level one or stage one to stage four. And this is where it gets really exciting. Louis Diamond: This would be a question for John. You found, and he’s mentioned it, that only 5.4% of entrepreneurs operate as architects versus optimizers. Can you explain the difference between those two personas? John Bowen: Well, I’m going to set up the research and let Dan really bring it home. But Dan and I came up with this framework, The Greater Game and the 10 Multipliers, and we’ve got that and we’re putting it in order and we wanted to really confirm. And everything we do is empirical research. So we reached out to 1,000 very successful entrepreneurs, 1,016. And it became very clear that the 5.4% of them were actually executing on all these levels and they were just distancing everyone else. And what we came up with, and Dan mentioned it earlier, that his book, 10x Is Easier Than 2x, but we said, what we’re seeing… and we’ve got a whole bunch, I think it’s 26 stories in the book of entrepreneurs, we’re seeing so many people blow this out that 100x is easier than 2x, and it forces a whole different mindset where if you’re optimizing, you’re kind of looking incrementally. But when you step back as an architect, big picture, wow, huge opportunity, both for entrepreneurs and advisors that are entrepreneurs to make a real big difference. This is something you’ve really coached to and had the privilege of working with thousands of entrepreneurs helping them on that journey. Dan Sullivan: Yeah. One of the things that was confusing for me, Lou, when I first started coaching, because everybody who came in to coach, you remember when you came into your first Chicago workshop, that everybody in the room was motivated. I’m not a motivational speaker. I don’t have to motivate the entrepreneurs who are in Coach. They’re already motivated. The problem is the focus of their ambition and focus. And what we discovered was that there were two types that showed up. I didn’t really understand it, but they’re what I call status-oriented entrepreneurs. And what they are when they were a kid, they didn’t have anything. Their family wasn’t at the top of the pole. When they were born, they grew up in a certain community, but there were certain people who lived in the right part of town and they had really big houses and everything about their lifestyle was way above everybody else in the lifestyle. And they saw the lack of what they had, because of the way they were born, that they were going to match it. But the matching was based in not only what the big home looks like. They’ve got other homes, they’ve got vacation homes. They belong to clubs. There’s clubs for the winners, and the losers aren’t part of those clubs, golf courses and boating clubs and everything else. And what I noticed was their motivation was simply to get to that point where they had the same sort of status. And they’re interesting for a while, but once they’ve gotten to that level of status, they’re not interesting anymore. They go on cruise control at that point and they just want to stay within that framework. But the really interesting entrepreneurs, and we really highlight them in the book, it’s just about growth. So when they get to one level, they say, “That’s great. Okay, now I’ve got a new baseline and now I want to grow even further.” And we have one story, very, very interesting. When he came into my Chicago workshop, I met him and he said, “I’ve got a big engineering company.” This is Paul VanDuyne. He’s out of the Quad City area of Iowa. And he says, “My ambition for your program is for three years, I’m just going to plan my retirement.” And I said, “Well, we’ve got some thoughts about that.” So I said, “Just do your first workshop and we’ll talk about it 90 days from now.” And he came back and he had an entirely different game plan, and he’s grown basically 250 times in his last 13 years. He’s completely transformed the industry that he’s in and he had this growth. So what we’re looking for in The Greater Game, we’re looking for those entrepreneurs who are already successful, but they don’t see any stopping point. They’ll grow to one level and then they say, “Okay, that’s the new baseline. Now I grow to another level.” Meanwhile, three years ago, what happened is the world got a new capability called AI. AI, you’re not talking 10x. If you use it properly… a lot of people are in the very early stages here, but we can see the ones who are applying it for growth. John has set up an entire research structure just to measure the people, and what are the people who are just motivated by growth? They don’t see any stopping point. They don’t see any retirement age. They’re just growing. They’re in better health now than they were when they started their ambition. One of the great breakthroughs we’re having now is the impact of AI on physical fitness and health right now. And so you have 70-year-olds now who are way more ambitious at 70 than they were at 50. So we think a whole new world is being created in front of us, but there isn’t the research to measure what the real winners of this new game are actually doing. And The Greater Game is a lot of Strategic Coach thinking tools, but it’s also the phenomenal research that John is doing, and we’re measuring exactly what are these people who just constantly grow, what are they actually doing? John Bowen: Louis, if I can jump in, I want to go back to Paul just for a second because he was going to do something classical, and Dan is also my coach and I was going to do something similar. Paul told Dan that he was going to retire at 65, and his wife. And he were going to open up a little mom-and-pop coffee shop. And the reason so many of the entrepreneurs are caught in the 2x optimization is they’re grinding it out. They’re working harder to be more successful and the desire to do that isn’t very high. That’s why you retire. On the other hand, what we found, the ones working on 100x are building platforms and ecosystems. They’re architected. And as we were writing the book, CEG grew by 58%. I’m going to give a lot of credit to the book, because as Dan and I were working on the processes, I wanted to walk all the talks. This is where the world is changing. I want everybody to think as a financial advisor, you’re being served twice, one with The Greater Game, they don’t care about a few basis points on returns. That’s table stakes. So much of the level one is taking care of the investment side, mitigating taxes, taking care of the areas, protecting the assets, some charitable planning, maybe shoot in some succession planning. I can tell you only 6% of the entrepreneurs actually feel they’re getting that from you, but that’s only level one. If you can help them from each of the stages, stage one through four, and help them create that vision, they’re going to love you to death. Because many of them want to continue in this path and create tremendous value, bigger impact, not creating legacies in the sense of enduring legacies, but active legacies. Last year, my wife and I set up a private foundation. I called it The Greater Game Foundation. I just love this so much, the difference that you can make, and I want to do it while I’m living, not while I’m gone type of thing. I think that’s one Dan and I very much share. Louis Diamond: Awesome. You wrote the book 10x Is Easier Than 2x, but now you’re claiming 100x is easier than 2x. How can that be the case? Dan Sullivan: The interesting thing, one of my points of proof on the original idea, the 10x Mind Expander, I use a lot of what the entrepreneurs have already done to prove the future. In other words, I said… You’ll remember the exercise, Lou. And I said, “I want you to pick your best number.” Everybody’s got a best number. It’s revenue, it’s net worth, whatever. And I said, “I just want you to multiply by 10.” And immediately there’s this reaction. He says, “You know how hard it was to get to just where I am 10 times?” And I said, “Well, you’ve already done 10 times. You’ve probably done 10 times twice. So let’s go back to the beginning. When were you 1/10 of where you are right now?” And they can nail it. They can tell you the year, they can tell you the month when they were 1/10 of where they were. And I said, “Let’s write the actual structure that got you from 1/10 to where you are right now.” And there’s five stages, and usually it’s an event, it’s a new relationship and all of a sudden they get a big check. And we measure, as entrepreneurs, size of check is a good scorecard. When you’re first starting, you got a $10,000 check, that was the biggest check. But about five years later, you get a $100,000 check, and all of a sudden it seems strange at breakfast, but by dinner you’ve normalized the idea, “Well, I know what it’s like to get a much bigger check, a 10 times check.” And so I have them create five growth stages that took them from where they were 1/10 to where they are right now, and I said, “Now let’s go back and talk about doing 10 times more.” And what they recognize, 80% who’ve got them 10 times the first time is going to be the same. It’s relationship, it’s having a great team, it’s having a simple approach that always works and it’s about the kind end customer. It’s not about them. It’s about who is it that you’re being a hero to in the marketplace. Because the truth is people don’t want to have a lot of relationships as they grow. They’d like to have one relationship to grow. They’d like to have an advisor who’s growing with them. But then John introduced me to the whole world of AI and I said, “We’re not talking 10 times anymore. We’re talking 100 times.” I said, “If you apply this new form of thinking, because it is an entirely new form of thinking, to what you’re doing right now, you can see that 10 times is going to happen just by doing three or four things where you’re eliminating waste, you’re eliminating things that just don’t work anymore, changing relationships, changing teamwork, changing collaborations in the marketplace.” But meanwhile, this new world of thinking is making you healthier. It’s making you more fit. So where before you thought you wouldn’t have the energy at 70, you now have more energy at 70 than you had at 50. So you’re the only one who says when it’s going to stop. I’m 82 in three weeks. We’re having this… I’m 82 and I’m way more ambitious at 82 than I was at 52. And the world is, because the world outside in terms of technological capability and access is way, way bigger in my 82nd year than it was in my 52nd year, and I love the growth. I have to tell you that the greatest point where AI is going to have the impact is going to be making money. The big titans, the Metas, the Googles, the Nvidias, what do they have in common? It’s about the money and where AI is being applied most is how you do new things with money. So that’s where the 100 times now comes from. I’ve normalized it. I said, “We’re not talking a 10x game anymore. We’re talking 100x game.” But the number on the scoreboard isn’t the issue. The scoreboard is, are you actually having fun? Louis Diamond: Yeah, we call it living your best business life. That’s our major barometer in charge. John, I don’t know if you could pull up your slides again, but I want to talk about the bridge between stage two in your pyramid to stage three. So that’s from expertise into scalable property. Can you explain how this relates to a financial advisor or an independent business owner and why this concept is so important for the valuation of a business? John Bowen: The book, it’s written for entrepreneurs, but I wanted to create some bridges while we’re together with Louis on really what’s going on for financial advisors and how you can help them. So if they’re at our stage one, Dan and my stage one of The Greater Game, and they want to go to two, they’re kind of dreaming oftentimes, and we want to help them begin creating the architectural structure. And as an advisor, this is really going to encourage everybody to read chapter two, The Greater Security. It talks about really the VFO, Virtual Family Office structure that they want, and you got to help them get financially solid, building personal wealth outside of the business, tax, estate, insurance, business structure. That’s what we all do today. Then though, if they want to move from level two to three, what we find over and over again, advisors are not equipped to do this, because what we’re taking is that founder where everything’s in its head, we’re now helping them move from just having that expertise to having scalable property. This is that codifying the process of building IP that’s transferable. And this is where the real valuation changes. Now, I’m not asking financial advisors to be the IP experts, but what the entrepreneurs want is they want somebody to help them curate and then coordinate between each of these levels. We go from three to four that the founder is indispensable, oftentimes at three. Now we want the team there to be invincible. And it’s not just the individual team as Dan was talking about. It’s the community. The collaboration is where this really takes off. The noise of AI is making it harder to market, but by partnering, particularly as financial advisors, we can very quickly have groups. One of the reasons why I’m collaborating with Dan, I want to help our financial advisors to work with entrepreneurs. Dan wants that research. So this is the natural collaboration. But they’re interested here in governance, self-managing teams. One of the things that Strategic Coach is brilliant at, the pre-transaction they want. And what we find so often is the indispensable discount. So many businesses sell, if they sell at all, they’re selling for three to five times multiplier, not advisory, but traditional businesses. Well, if you can make it to four, all of a sudden you’re now talking to 10 to 15 times multipliers. And think of it as if I’m a buyer and I’ve been involved in 50-some transactions, what happens is if the business is the guy, the gal, they’re the business, then you’re buying a very expensive job type thing. So let’s just keep a simple one. They’re having a couple million dollars of EBITDA. And let’s say the high range of that, five times EBITDA is $10 million. Well, the difference at 15 times two million is 30. Now, a few basis points I don’t really care about. I really care about capturing that difference. And because there’s a machine working without, I can buy that machine and generate that cash flow and it’s also taking advantage of the vision. And then when we get to level four, this is where most advisors make the biggest mistake is, “I’ve won. I’m at level four. I’ve got tremendous wealth.” Okay, but I’m now looking at significance. And I do want to go, “It’s not enduring legacy I’m looking for. I’m looking for active legacy. I’m looking for family governance.” Do I want to continue to build it like Dan and I’m doing at 70? I’m building the business so I can continue doing it as long as I want to do it. At the same time, and I love the impact we have and I know you do too, Louis, for the impact you have. Why not build the platform that’s going to allow you to do that as long as you want to do that? And if you don’t want to do it, let’s create the most value to transfer. When you start having conversations like that with families, entrepreneur families, it just changes, and very few advisors can do that. And that’s what we’re finding. We have a coaching company, training company, we train those things. They’re winning, quite honestly, almost 100% of the time because entrepreneurs didn’t know that was available to them. Louis Diamond: Interesting. It seems like the difference between stage two in your pyramid, to leap to stage three or four, that seems like a pretty massive pivot point for valuation for building a scalable business, having a self-managing company, et cetera. Do you find or have you seen that advisors or entrepreneurs that are in stage two themselves, they kind of pattern-match when they’re working with their own clients and kind of manage their own clients into stage two, or is it not really connected? John Bowen: I think that once you get the bigger picture and see the greater game, you can help your clients. That is a very small percentage. Remember, it was only 5.4 of when we surveyed successful entrepreneurs were actually playing the greater game, all four levels, the 10 greater multipliers. So I think what we tend to do is we get stuck on what we can do. And all the training is for level one for financial advisors. We don’t know how to guide them through the other levels. And really, the big difference from two to three, Dan and I’ve talked about this a lot, and I think Dan’s one of the biggest champions of this, is collaboration, putting together strategic partnerships. It could be with your competitors. This is for entrepreneurs, competitors, it could be various vendor partnerships. But the ability to open up markets that way when you have now put together in level two your IP, value creation’s huge. For advisors, it’s putting together partnerships with centers of influence. When we survey top financial advisors, 70% of their best clients came through COI, Centers of Influence with accountants, attorneys, investment bankers, and so on. Well, let’s do it on purpose, be successful on purpose. Louis Diamond: Dan, question for you. In all your experience working with successful financial advisors, insurance producers, probably any entrepreneur, what do you feel are the most common things that folks do unintentionally to really hurt their enterprise value even long before, or if ever, they decide to sell their business? Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is they stay entirely within their industry. One of the first questions that we ask our entrepreneurs when they come into the program and where you see it most is in the professions: lawyers, accountants, engineers, architects. I’ll say, “Well, what is it that you are?” And they’ll say, “Well, I’m a lawyer. I’m a tax lawyer.” And I said, “Are you a tax lawyer or are you an entrepreneur who has a specialty in tax law?” Okay. It makes a big difference, because if you see yourself as a tax lawyer, then you’re saying that you’re a better paid factory worker. You’re a manual laborer. But if you’re an entrepreneur, it’s a fairly recent idea in human history. There’s always been entrepreneurs, but it wasn’t until about the beginning of the 1800s that you start seeing this really different class of people in the marketplace, who, it didn’t matter how they were born, they were taking advantage of some new multiplier technology. Steam power being a great example. Around 1800, steam power came on. And anybody who had a bright vision for themselves and had the wherewithal to figure out what needs could be satisfied with a new technology, all of a sudden they became rich. They became rich. And it was very disruptive, because up until then it was based on aristocracy and you were born into wealth or you were born into poverty. There was no crossover. So what we’re saying is anybody who comes into Strategic Coach, I said, “I’m not going to tell you anything about your particular industry.” I said, “You know all the best practice people in your industry and they have workshops and they have conferences and you go to them, but they don’t know how to be entrepreneurs. You know how to create a really well-paying job, but you haven’t created a company.” A company is a totally different realm and I would say the vast majority of entrepreneurs, 95% of entrepreneurs haven’t really created a company. They’ve just created a really well-paying job which requires their presence and their attendance. I said, “You don’t get any payout for your company. If you’re the company, you need to have a structure.” I’ll give you an example. We started the company in 1989, and we’re about 270 times what our first year revenues were, and that was a great year. I was very happy for the first year, but we’re about 270 times. Along the way, what I did is I created other coaches so it wasn’t just Dan, the coach. So we have 16 other coaches. And I’ll give you a little example. In 1994, that year our company did 144 workshop days, 36 per quarter. One coach: me. Last year we did 600 workshop days and I did 12. 588 were done by other coaches. And our coaches are great. They’re clients who have coaching instincts and they do it. So about four years ago, I met one of our clients who’s an M&A specialist, and I laid out all the facts just in conversation, “This is our revenues. We have no debt. It’s repeatable income, around 70% is repeatable for one year.” I put the whole structure together. And I said, “So right off the top, I don’t have any relatives on staff.” The first thing they look for, “Any relatives working for you?” And he gave me a number. It was a big number. It was probably four times revenue for that year. He said, “We got a lot of structures.” Then something happened in the marketplace, and this is a great breakthrough that the US Patent Office sometime in the last 10 years recognized that up until about 10 years ago, to get a patent, you had to have a technological component for what you were doing. Sometime in the last 10 years, the patent bureaus decided that the internet is the technological component. So they’ve introduced education and entertainment as patentable processes. So in the last three years, we’ve gotten 82 patents. 82 patents. And these are our thinking tools, Lifetime Extender, Free Focus and Buffer Days. You know the routine that you learn in the first three days, and we’ve got 82 of them. We’re averaging about 25. I get a new patent about every two weeks. So I saw this M&A specialist, and I said, “This has happened in the last three years.” And he said, “Immediately it doubles the valuation of your company.” So what John’s saying here, as you go through the four stages, more and more you get paid for your creativity, retail, you get paid for your retail. But if you structure it, you record it, you package it, it is even greater than what you got paid for your creativity. Louis Diamond: Super interesting personal anecdote, and I appreciate you sharing that because that definitely did drive the point home for me. I see the applicability to probably any industry, but especially to any financial advisor. Dan Sullivan: Oh, yeah. Louis Diamond: The best RIA firms, the best advisors, they pretty much all start off with a cult of personality founder who’s the rainmaker. And then the practices that really grow and scale and are valuable are more platforms. That’s what private equity wants to invest in. And those are the firms that get the higher multiples. Dan Sullivan: Yeah. So the big thing is there’s a really, really great IP lawyer. He’s in our program and he’s made the breakthrough, and he’s the first IP lawyer that doesn’t charge by the hour. He charges by the patent. If the IP lawyer charges by the hour, it’s a very slow patent. If he charges by the patent, it’s a very fast patent. But the big thing, he showed a slide that in just big corporations, 1980, you took big corp, Fortune 500, the S&P 500, more than 80% of their valuation was tangible. It was property, it was real estate, it was fleets, it was equipment. Last year, more than 80% were intangibles. It was your ideas, intellectual. If you look at Elon Musk, it’s all intellectual capital. If you look at Meta, you look at anything, it’s intellectual. It’s not tangibles. So we’ve entered into that new world and AI has introduced us to that new world. It’s new processes, new structures, new approaches and it’s really interesting. It’s hard for entrepreneurs to get their idea that your creativity is actually property. Louis Diamond: It sounds like the ultimate challenge for anyone listening is translate your process, your ideas, the stuff that you’re doing by instinct as you both had said, and turn it into something patentable or something repeatable that another advisor, another executive, another owner can pick up and deploy and scale. John Bowen: We share the process in chapter four. It’s the fourth greater multiplier. And we actually share Caldwell, the attorney that Dan’s talking about, his story and the value creation. He’s now the major player in that space. And this is where we as advisors, we’re given a twofer, Dan and Louis, is that you can help your clients, but you can do this yourself too. You’ve been involved in a number of large transactions. The difference, I had a $2 billion advisory practice I sold in ’98, and we sold for 16 times earnings. And a big part of it, we were in that blue ocean. We had agents that we created and strategic process that would run without me, and it did type thing. And it continued to grow and went for about 10 fold what I sold for a number of years later. This is something that’s very real. Louis Diamond: Absolutely. I got two more questions for you guys because I know you’re both busy. For an advisor who feels like they’ve won the growth game, they grow 10, 15, 20% per year, they’re charged up, they’re on the Barron’s list, the Forbes list, they’re hitting their AUM milestones, they built an amazing team, they have a family member in the business. They have everything that anyone could want. What does the next game look like for them? What’s the next frontier once you’ve achieved all those things that from the outside looking in, seems like you have it all? What’s the next game to play? John Bowen: Well, we’re going to both say The Greater Game, but the- Dan Sullivan: Well, tell them about the dashboard, John, because the book is just part of the deal here. It gives you the landscape. There’s a great tool that comes with the book. So tell them about the dashboard. John Bowen: Really what we wanted to do is to create kind of a community just around the book. Dan and I and team built a dashboard. We were very creative on naming, thegreatergamedashboard.com. You can go in and we’re now studying every month over 500 successful entrepreneurs. We have that data in here. You’ll be able to see how you compare at each of these stages, the four stages, the 10 multipliers. And you’re going to get specific recommendations. This is for entrepreneurs. But again, you should do it. If you’re a financial advisor, you have an equity ownership, you should definitely be doing it as well. And one of the things that we see over and over again, and Louis, you probably see this a lot in the conversations. They have advisors who have already won. They don’t know what the next game is. And it’s easy to check out at that point. It’s easy to frustrate the next generation of leaders and so on. If you take the time to really see what the opportunities are and architect to realize that vision, you can create, whether it’s selling the practice, creating tremendous value there or designing a role for yourself, maybe it’s executive chairman type for that business that you can guide it with the vision and what you’ve brought and strategy. But bring that team up. That’s going to create so much value, so much impact and you can design it for the life that you want. And that’s where I get very excited. Louis Diamond: I can hear the passion in your voice. Dan, let’s finish with you. Given all of your experience working with entrepreneurs, advisors, business owners, et cetera, what’s the one move that you’ve seen the most successful entrepreneurs in your orbit make that’s changed the trajectory of their firms and their life more than anything else? Dan Sullivan: I’ll answer it in a little roundabout way. Periodically, I have a thinking tool. I said, “If everything was taken away from you as an entrepreneur and they moved you 1,000 miles away, what’s the one thing that you would take with you? It has to be portable. So what is the most portable thing that you have that you would start over again with the greatest value that you had created previously? What would it be? And then you would rebuild what you’ve already created, but you would do it much faster. What would be the one thing?” It’s an interesting thought. But in our concept, it’s called unique ability, that there’s something about you, as an individual, that first of all gave you enough confidence to become an entrepreneur because it’s risky. It’s a risky proposition. It’s guessing and betting and it’s risky business and it’s unique ability. So the starting point for all growth in Strategic Coach is that there’s something about you that’s absolutely unique. You don’t have any competitors on this and it has two qualities. One is that you’re so good at it, you don’t take it seriously. You’ve done this since you were a child and it just comes to you naturally and you don’t see the significance of it. When you’re in Coach, you start seeing the significance of it. And the second thing is you just absolutely love doing it. It’s what you love doing most of all. It comes to you naturally. You don’t even have to think about it. And then you begin to realize that anything else you’re doing as the founder and the owner of your company, probably somebody else can do. So you’re doing 20 things, but really you should be doing three things. The other 17 things still need to be done but not by you. And that’s the breakthrough. You have to simplify in order to multiply. Louis Diamond: I absolutely love that. I know when I was in Coach, that was my biggest takeaway or realization was figuring out what my unique ability was because I think the two components, they’re so critical. Just because you’re good at something, if you don’t like it, then you shouldn’t build a company around it and that shouldn’t be what you should be doing. It should be the things that you’re world-class at, you don’t have competition in, but at the same time, you actually enjoy it. It lights you up, lets you get out of bed, et cetera. Dan Sullivan: I’ve got a client in July. I’ll see him in July and he started with me. This is before I actually started the workshop program. This is when I was still doing one-on-one client. He’s a wealth manager here in Toronto and I’ve seen him every quarter for 39 years. And he’s way over 100 times what he was there, and he says, “I got to get simpler. I got to get simpler.” He says, “I’m doing too much and everything.” So this is almost 120 quarters he’s done this. He’s 75. He runs six marathons a year. He’s automatically guaranteed Boston. He’s automatically guaranteed London. He’s automatically guaranteed New York and everything like that and just remarkable. John Bowen: And he’s just getting started. Dan Sullivan: Yeah, he’s 72, 73, says it just gets better as you go along. One thing, an interesting statistic, and I don’t think, John, I’ve actually told you this. So the US is the best research economy in the world. The number of research looking at how Americans perform is really interesting, but they take the decades with entrepreneurs. So they have from 10 to 20 entrepreneurs, growth of entrepreneurs, 10 years old, and then they go up through the decades. The biggest percentage of change in any decade is from 70 to 80. There’s been more new entrepreneurs growing between 70 and 80 than any other decade as a percentage. The reason is because it’s mostly idea work that we’re doing right now. We’re not doing manual labor anymore. We’re doing idea work. And these are individuals who say, “I love what I’m doing. I’m more useful.” They’ve worked for someone else for 70 years and then they become an entrepreneur, and of course AI is helping them do this. So we’re in a vastly new world now. 82 years, this is the biggest change that I’ve seen just in the last three years, is just a new world. And the greater game is now possible. The greater game that John, what he’s structuring, this game was not possible 25 years ago and it’s possible now. Louis Diamond: It’s a great charge to everyone listening and a good reminder to pick up a copy of his book. I know I certainly will. I wouldn’t normally ask you where to buy it, but I assume Amazon and just Google it or ChatGPT, I’m sure you can find it. Dan Sullivan: They’ll be in all the bookstores. Louis Diamond: There we go. Thank you both. John Bowen: Thank you. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients, but are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook. Architecting 100x Growth: A “How-To” From Legends Dan Sullivan and John Bowen A conversation with Louis Diamond and Co-Authors of The Greater Game, Dan Sullivan of Strategic Coach and John Bowen of CEG Insights.      Louis Diamond: Welcome to the latest episode of our podcast series for financial advisors. Today’s episode is Architecting 100x Growth: A “How-To” From Legends Dan Sullivan and John Bowen, a conversation with the industry’s top coaches and co-authors of The Greater Game. I’m Louis Diamond, and this is the Diamond Podcast for Financial Advisors. Mindy Diamond: At Diamond Consultants, we help elite advisors identify the right environment for their businesses to thrive, whether that’s at a wirehouse, boutique, or independent firm. With nearly three decades of experience, we’ve guided thousands of advisors and represented more than a quarter of a trillion dollars in assets transitioned. And each year, one in four advisors managing a billion dollars or more who change firms are our clients. Our process is education-driven and based on building relationships, starting as your strategic partner well before you’re even thinking of a move. To schedule a confidential conversation, call us at 908-879-1002. Wondering why advisors change firms and where they’re headed? Are transition deals going up or down? Those very questions and more inspired us to create our annual Advisor Transition Report. It’s the award-winning data-driven resource designed for advisors that connects the dots between the motivations around movement and the firm’s appetite for top talent. Arm yourself with the knowledge you need to make smart decisions. Download your copy at diamond-consultants.com/transitionreport. Louis Diamond: Most entrepreneurs and many advisors spend years optimizing for growth without realizing they’re building a business that still depends entirely on them. Revenue and complexity grow; enterprise value, transferability, and freedom often lag far behind. Dan Sullivan and John Bowen argue that the issue isn’t effort or intelligence; it’s architecture. No doubt these are familiar names in the wealth management industry, but just to set the stage, Dan is the co-founder of Strategic Coach, and John is the founder of CEG Elevate Group and CEG Insights. Together, they spent decades coaching and studying high-performing entrepreneurs and advisory firms. Their latest book, one they joined forces on, The Greater Game, lays out a very different framework for thinking about growth, one built around scalability, transferrable value, and long-term leverage rather than incremental optimization. What makes this conversation especially relevant for advisors is that the framework cuts both ways. It applies to the entrepreneurial clients that advisors serve, as well as to the advisory firms themselves. And in many cases, the same founder dependency and expertise trap that limits a client’s enterprise value is quietly limiting the advisor’s business too. We talk about the difference between operators and architects, why 100 times growth can actually be easier than two times growth, where businesses tend to stall as they scale and how advisors can start thinking differently about their own firms, particularly when it comes to enterprise value, succession, and long-term optionality. It’s rare access to a conversation with two of our industry’s legends whose advice and counsel has not only helped to transform the business lives of many of our listeners, but also my own. So let’s get to it. Dan and John, thank you both for joining us today. Dan Sullivan: Thank you, Lou. It’s a real pleasure. John Bowen: I’ve had the privilege of joining you before, but never with my co-author, Dan Sullivan, and I’m excited to share what we’re doing because I think it can make a big impact in our advisor industry. Louis Diamond: No doubt about it. Yeah, this has been an interview I’ve been very excited to host. So let’s jump right in. Dan Sullivan, I think you are a man that needs little introduction. So many advisors in the industry are fans or clients of your firm, Strategic Coach, but for those who aren’t as familiar or need a refresh, can you just give some quick context into why you started Strategic Coach and what the company does today? Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Well, it goes back to 1974. I was a copywriter at BBDO, the Canadian branch of BBDO, big global advertising agency. It still is. But I’ve been sort of a lifetime coach. I remember once when my mother finally caught up with what I was doing in life and I was describing what I was doing, she says, “Well, you were doing that when you were a child. You were talking to adults and you were asking adults about their experiences.” And I said, “Yeah, I could do this when I was eight or nine years old, but it took me a long time to get a business model wrapped around it.” But I jumped out in 1974 and started coaching anybody, but it actually turned out that entrepreneurs were the best people to coach because they would write a check on the spot and they would make a decision on the spot and I needed cashflow and I did it. So I’ve been personally, as a Strategic Coach, which was named by someone else. You’re just out there trying to get cashflow to pay for the rent. So I started in ’74, and I was lucky and it really relates to your target audience, Lou. Right off the bat, I got what are called top-of-the-table life insurance agents. And that was really, really great because life insurance agents are purely a conceptual business. So someone can get a new idea at breakfast and they can have a new business by dinnertime just because they can change their mindset. And that moved on. And I did that for 15 years, just one-on-one, 1970s, 1980s. And then, I’d had enough experience that we turned it into a workshop program in 1989. We’ve been at it ever since. So I was at a talk. Joe Polish is a great friend of ours, Joe Polish with Genius Network. And he had a speaker there, and he says, “You’re one of the original gangsters, aren’t you? You’re one of the first people.” And I said, “I don’t know if I’m the original, but I think I’m the only surviving one.” So it’s 52 years that I’ve been doing what I’m doing. And I had the good fortune to meet John in around 2009. John, was that the year? 2009? John Bowen: Yeah, in the little economic downturn that everybody knows about here. Dan Sullivan: Yeah. And John had a great coaching program and we had a great coaching program. And over the years, we’ve talked a lot about what makes a entrepreneur exponential in their thinking. And finally, about two years ago, we decided, let’s write a book about this. And that’s the new book, which is called The Greater Game. That’s where this all started. It’s just been a great pleasure because we sync very well. Louis Diamond: Amazing. And Dan, I think a lot of people likely know you either from Strategic Coach. I know I’m personally a big fan of two of your books and I know of others, The Gap and The Gain and Who Not How. We’re going to talk about your new book, but I think it’d just be helpful. Can you talk about the key premise of some of your prior books, The Gap and The Gain and Who Not How? Dan Sullivan: As a result of my membership, I’m a member in other groups. And so Joe Polish of Genius Network fame, he’s been in my program for 28 years, and I’ve been in his program for 15 years. And there was a writer who was in one of the first Genius Network workshops, and he approached me. And I created a lot of books, but I create small books and they’re self-published. I do a book a quarter. I’m 82 in about three weeks. So when I was 70, I said, “I’m going to give myself a 25-year project. I’ll write 100 books in 100 quarters.” And this is quarter number 47, and I’m writing my 47th book. But they’re little books. They’re 60, 70 pages. They’re one-idea books. And Ben Hardy, who was, at that time, the number one writer on Medium, which is a blogging type medium, he approached me, and he said, “I know you don’t write big books and you don’t have publisher books. But,” he said, “if you ever did,” he said, “I’d like to collaborate.” And that was a great good fortune on my part. So we produced three books in five years. The first book was Who Not How. Who Not How basically says when you have a goal, the biggest problem with the goal, you’re excited about the goal, but you’re not excited about doing it. So you find “Whos” who help you and you build teamwork around it. And that was a big seller. And then, we had another concept which was called The Gap and The Gain that entrepreneurs, depending on how they measure their progress, can be perpetually unhappy or they can be perpetually motivated. And it all depends on how they measure their progress, how they measure their goal setting and their goal achievement. And then the third book, which has really turned out to be the big one, up until this book, this book will be bigger. It’s called 10x Is Easier Than 2x. So hence, Coach, everybody has a 10x game plan. Whatever number they want to choose, revenues, personal net worth, whatever, you have a framework of 10x, which is sometime in the future, but you use that future framework for deciding what you’re going to do today that will end up as a 10x result. I thought that was going to be our formula for the rest of my life until I met John. And then John is a great AI practitioner. And I began to realize that that 10x is now becoming 100x for really top-notch entrepreneurs, but the 10x is easier than 2x. And we just crossed the million mark with the three books, which is really good. And it’s great for lead… we’re having people show up and they’ve really bought into what Strategic Coach is. We have a good size company. We’re not a small company. We have 120 team members. We’re in five centers: Los Angeles, Vancouver, Chicago, Toronto and London, England. But it’s been really great because we’ve really grown with technological change and it’s basically, we teach people how to think about their thinking. And Lou, you were in for three years, both in-person and virtual. So you know what the starting structure of it is, but I’m in love with entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurs are crucial characters on the planet, but mostly they operate alone and what we’ve done is create a community for them. Louis Diamond: Fantastic. Thank you, Dan. And John, I think perfect segue to you, because I know you’ve spent your career serving and helping entrepreneurs as well, mostly within financial services or within wealth management. And you’ve been very kind to share some of your amazing research on advisors serving entrepreneurial clients in the past. But for anyone who’s missed those episodes, similar question for you, can you share what your companies do? CEG Elevate, CEG Insights, your new research, and then we’ll dive into your exciting new book. John Bowen: Thank you, Louis. And Dan and I are very excited about just entrepreneurs in general. Dan is, because he’s working with them directly. The best clients for financial advisors are entrepreneurs, largely, if you’re going to go high net worth, ultra-high net worth. So we have a company, CEG Elevate, which is our parent company. Two of the companies that are really interesting for this podcast is CEG Insights and this is our research arm. And we’ll study about 20,000 high net worth, ultra-high net worth clients this year in depth and 6,000 up to 7,000 we’ll do just of entrepreneurs. And this is in the partnership. Lou, I invited you up to… We were skiing two years ago in Park City and you couldn’t join us. But Dan and I made a deal to do a 25-year partnership studying entrepreneurship, one for Strategic Coach and his coaching clients, but really the opportunity for financial advisors. And it’s probably just as well because I came down, and I think, Dan, you were 80 at the time and I was 69. I’m 70 now. And I was skiing with a whole bunch of 40-year-olds, and they’re all going, “You guys are way too optimistic.” And Dan and I are just getting started on this. And the other company that’s applicable is CEG Worldwide, where we have the privilege of coaching and training some of the top financial advisors, those aspiring, and also working with the enterprises to really help move up market and do this great experience. Louis Diamond: Fantastic. Dan, question for you. What was the core problem you and John were trying to solve in your new book, The Greater Game? What is it that existing frameworks weren’t touching? And then John, I’ll have a follow-up question for you after that. Dan Sullivan: Yeah. Well, by the very nature of what we do, we’re not going for wannabes. We’re not going for entrepreneurs who hope to be really successful someday. We’re engaging with and we’re registering into both of our communities, people who, they’re already great. They’re already doing so many things right, but they’re kind of doing it unconsciously. They just have a unique ability for growth. They have a unique ability for networking and expansion, but the very, very core is they’ve done it on their own. And they’ve done it out of intuition and they’ve done it out of ambition and motivation. But their biggest problem is that they’re really lonely. I’m in my sixth decade now of coaching entrepreneurs, and people say, “Well, what’s the number one problem that entrepreneurs face?” And I said, “Loneliness.” They can’t explain themselves to the family they grew up with. They can’t explain themselves with their lifetime friends. They have thoughts about how they’re operating. And they take enormous pride in their ability to transform difficulties into breakthroughs, but they don’t have anybody to talk to. So what we’ve created is a community where when you walk in the room, everybody in that room immediately understands you. Everybody immediately applauds what you’ve done. Everybody is inspired by you. So my framework is I call, “What you’ve done on your own, you’re great. You’re a winner already, but who do you talk to?” You have to hide a lot of your success because they just won’t understand what it is that actually motivates you. And the beauty of the partnership with John is the vast majority of our clients are in 70 or 80 different industries, so they’re not peculiar. We start off with financial services, especially life insurance. But what I notice is that all the difficulty they get into life is they’re trying to communicate with people who don’t understand them. And what we’re saying is, “Stage one, you did it on your own, you’re great by any standard whatsoever. You check all the boxes for being a successful person, but you don’t really have any way to actually check out how other people are doing this.” And so we’ve created a community, and John has created a community where people, immediately, there’s understanding. And not only that, but there’s opportunity because they’re unique in their own ways. Every one of our entrepreneurs has created a very, very unique pattern of success that if they were with 10 other people, they could learn from this. If they were with 30 other people, they would learn even more. So that’s what we’ve done. So stage two is now joining a community where everybody gets you. Louis Diamond: Interesting. And that’s the premise of the book. We don’t want to have people not buy it, but what is the greater game? What’s the game that folks are playing and pursuing and how do you make it greater? Dan Sullivan: I tell you, what I’ve always been lacking, I’m sort of intuitive like most entrepreneurs are. We’ve done about 300 times growth since we started the program. But it’s intuitive. I don’t have any research to back this up. I’m low on fact finder. I find, generally speaking, the best facts are just the facts that I make up, but at a certain point, you’d like to have some actual research to back me up. So I’ve gone as far as I can go with our company without real research. Then John comes into the picture, and now we got some real research. And I will say this, this is generally true. It’s not just a problem with me that I don’t have research. I find that entrepreneurism is one of the least researched subjects on the planet. And John comes along and he’s done all the backfill for how entrepreneurs actually perform and I’ve got research to prove it. Louis Diamond: Perfect. Yeah, John, question for you. So what is The Greater Game? And then, how do you think it relates to what financial advisors have been missing? John Bowen: One of the things that we as financial advisors all want to work with people who have already won. And there’s no better group than entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs. If we look at people with 25 million or more of investible assets across all households in the US, 90% are entrepreneurs. And at the 5 to 25 million of investible assets, it’s three out of four. So at CEG Worldwide, we’ve always wanted to really understand advisors. And we said we’ll partner with Dan and his passion with entrepreneurs, we’ll go ahead and study them so that we can bring insights on how we can better serve them. And the very first thing we want to do is understand, yeah, there’s very different stages that we see of entrepreneurs and we talk about the whole concept of The Greater Game. And the idea here is we wanted to identify… And I’ll share some PowerPoint slides. I know a lot of us are listening and I just want to walk through this, but Louis will have it in show notes, his team will. We really saw four areas. The first one was level one, stage one was foundation for freedom. They had ambition, the vision, but they really needed security. And Dan calls this, and I love this term, “cash confidence.” But it’s really using a financial advisor to have security. And one of the things, the last time I was on with you, Louis, we talked about there’s 59.2% of entrepreneurs who want to switch advisors because they don’t believe they have that security. And that’s kind of the foundation. And this is why you’re never going to read a more friendly financial advisor book for entrepreneurs than this because in our coaching program, we’re developing workshops and so on to bring this message out. And then the second level is where now we saw… and there were four levels. Dan and I identified 5.4% of these entrepreneurs that were just killing it and they were going through all four levels. The second level was energy for expansion. They were very motivated, they were excited about getting up and really the intellectual property, and Dan’s been one of the big leaders in this, is so much of what we know… And as I go through this too, I want every one of the advisors to think about it’s not only your entrepreneurial clients, this is for you too, is having this intellectual property, getting it out of your head so that your business is not founder-dependent or personality-dependent. You’ve got this enterprise. And then, the third level where it really took off was collaboration and multiplication. And Dan talked about the power of community and this is so big. And for advisors, the community is often working with other professionals, the accountants, the attorneys, the investment bankers. Matter of fact, when we survey, we found that 40% of the people with 25 million or more that they invest with an advisor came through an investment banker. So creating that community, teamwork, having the right team and then autonomy. Can you step away from your practice? The entrepreneurs step away 30 days, 60 days, 90 days, making that independence, moving from the founder-dependent to the enterprise. And the last level was exponential. And this is all along the way, the AI opportunities to accelerate this and augment this is really real, but the agency where the blue ocean, creating new markets, then getting the commitment and courage. And at each of these levels, we saw different entrepreneurs just really taking off. And one of the things that’s so important, Louis, for what we’re talking about today is advisors all are ready to treat stage one, the foundation for freedom, but they don’t really understand the other stages, and that’s really what entrepreneurs want. So if you want to work in this market, it’s very important for you to understand what you can do to help. The difference is often for an entrepreneur, a three to five multiplier versus 15, the level one or stage one to stage four. And this is where it gets really exciting. Louis Diamond: This would be a question for John. You found, and he’s mentioned it, that only 5.4% of entrepreneurs operate as architects versus optimizers. Can you explain the difference between those two personas? John Bowen: Well, I’m going to set up the research and let Dan really bring it home. But Dan and I came up with this framework, The Greater Game and the 10 Multipliers, and we’ve got that and we’re putting it in order and we wanted to really confirm. And everything we do is empirical research. So we reached out to 1,000 very successful entrepreneurs, 1,016. And it became very clear that the 5.4% of them were actually executing on all these levels and they were just distancing everyone else. And what we came up with, and Dan mentioned it earlier, that his book, 10x Is Easier Than 2x, but we said, what we’re seeing… and we’ve got a whole bunch, I think it’s 26 stories in the book of entrepreneurs, we’re seeing so many people blow this out that 100x is easier than 2x, and it forces a whole different mindset where if you’re optimizing, you’re kind of looking incrementally. But when you step back as an architect, big picture, wow, huge opportunity, both for entrepreneurs and advisors that are entrepreneurs to make a real big difference. This is something you’ve really coached to and had the privilege of working with thousands of entrepreneurs helping them on that journey. Dan Sullivan: Yeah. One of the things that was confusing for me, Lou, when I first started coaching, because everybody who came in to coach, you remember when you came into your first Chicago workshop, that everybody in the room was motivated. I’m not a motivational speaker. I don’t have to motivate the entrepreneurs who are in Coach. They’re already motivated. The problem is the focus of their ambition and focus. And what we discovered was that there were two types that showed up. I didn’t really understand it, but they’re what I call status-oriented entrepreneurs. And what they are when they were a kid, they didn’t have anything. Their family wasn’t at the top of the pole. When they were born, they grew up in a certain community, but there were certain people who lived in the right part of town and they had really big houses and everything about their lifestyle was way above everybody else in the lifestyle. And they saw the lack of what they had, because of the way they were born, that they were going to match it. But the matching was based in not only what the big home looks like. They’ve got other homes, they’ve got vacation homes. They belong to clubs. There’s clubs for the winners, and the losers aren’t part of those clubs, golf courses and boating clubs and everything else. And what I noticed was their motivation was simply to get to that point where they had the same sort of status. And they’re interesting for a while, but once they’ve gotten to that level of status, they’re not interesting anymore. They go on cruise control at that point and they just want to stay within that framework. But the really interesting entrepreneurs, and we really highlight them in the book, it’s just about growth. So when they get to one level, they say, “That’s great. Okay, now I’ve got a new baseline and now I want to grow even further.” And we have one story, very, very interesting. When he came into my Chicago workshop, I met him and he said, “I’ve got a big engineering company.” This is Paul VanDuyne. He’s out of the Quad City area of Iowa. And he says, “My ambition for your program is for three years, I’m just going to plan my retirement.” And I said, “Well, we’ve got some thoughts about that.” So I said, “Just do your first workshop and we’ll talk about it 90 days from now.” And he came back and he had an entirely different game plan, and he’s grown basically 250 times in his last 13 years. He’s completely transformed the industry that he’s in and he had this growth. So what we’re looking for in The Greater Game, we’re looking for those entrepreneurs who are already successful, but they don’t see any stopping point. They’ll grow to one level and then they say, “Okay, that’s the new baseline. Now I grow to another level.” Meanwhile, three years ago, what happened is the world got a new capability called AI. AI, you’re not talking 10x. If you use it properly… a lot of people are in the very early stages here, but we can see the ones who are applying it for growth. John has set up an entire research structure just to measure the people, and what are the people who are just motivated by growth? They don’t see any stopping point. They don’t see any retirement age. They’re just growing. They’re in better health now than they were when they started their ambition. One of the great breakthroughs we’re having now is the impact of AI on physical fitness and health right now. And so you have 70-year-olds now who are way more ambitious at 70 than they were at 50. So we think a whole new world is being created in front of us, but there isn’t the research to measure what the real winners of this new game are actually doing. And The Greater Game is a lot of Strategic Coach thinking tools, but it’s also the phenomenal research that John is doing, and we’re measuring exactly what are these people who just constantly grow, what are they actually doing? John Bowen: Louis, if I can jump in, I want to go back to Paul just for a second because he was going to do something classical, and Dan is also my coach and I was going to do something similar. Paul told Dan that he was going to retire at 65, and his wife. And he were going to open up a little mom-and-pop coffee shop. And the reason so many of the entrepreneurs are caught in the 2x optimization is they’re grinding it out. They’re working harder to be more successful and the desire to do that isn’t very high. That’s why you retire. On the other hand, what we found, the ones working on 100x are building platforms and ecosystems. They’re architected. And as we were writing the book, CEG grew by 58%. I’m going to give a lot of credit to the book, because as Dan and I were working on the processes, I wanted to walk all the talks. This is where the world is changing. I want everybody to think as a financial advisor, you’re being served twice, one with The Greater Game, they don’t care about a few basis points on returns. That’s table stakes. So much of the level one is taking care of the investment side, mitigating taxes, taking care of the areas, protecting the assets, some charitable planning, maybe shoot in some succession planning. I can tell you only 6% of the entrepreneurs actually feel they’re getting that from you, but that’s only level one. If you can help them from each of the stages, stage one through four, and help them create that vision, they’re going to love you to death. Because many of them want to continue in this path and create tremendous value, bigger impact, not creating legacies in the sense of enduring legacies, but active legacies. Last year, my wife and I set up a private foundation. I called it The Greater Game Foundation. I just love this so much, the difference that you can make, and I want to do it while I’m living, not while I’m gone type of thing. I think that’s one Dan and I very much share. Louis Diamond: Awesome. You wrote the book 10x Is Easier Than 2x, but now you’re claiming 100x is easier than 2x. How can that be the case? Dan Sullivan: The interesting thing, one of my points of proof on the original idea, the 10x Mind Expander, I use a lot of what the entrepreneurs have already done to prove the future. In other words, I said… You’ll remember the exercise, Lou. And I said, “I want you to pick your best number.” Everybody’s got a best number. It’s revenue, it’s net worth, whatever. And I said, “I just want you to multiply by 10.” And immediately there’s this reaction. He says, “You know how hard it was to get to just where I am 10 times?” And I said, “Well, you’ve already done 10 times. You’ve probably done 10 times twice. So let’s go back to the beginning. When were you 1/10 of where you are right now?” And they can nail it. They can tell you the year, they can tell you the month when they were 1/10 of where they were. And I said, “Let’s write the actual structure that got you from 1/10 to where you are right now.” And there’s five stages, and usually it’s an event, it’s a new relationship and all of a sudden they get a big check. And we measure, as entrepreneurs, size of check is a good scorecard. When you’re first starting, you got a $10,000 check, that was the biggest check. But about five years later, you get a $100,000 check, and all of a sudden it seems strange at breakfast, but by dinner you’ve normalized the idea, “Well, I know what it’s like to get a much bigger check, a 10 times check.” And so I have them create five growth stages that took them from where they were 1/10 to where they are right now, and I said, “Now let’s go back and talk about doing 10 times more.” And what they recognize, 80% who’ve got them 10 times the first time is going to be the same. It’s relationship, it’s having a great team, it’s having a simple approach that always works and it’s about the kind end customer. It’s not about them. It’s about who is it that you’re being a hero to in the marketplace. Because the truth is people don’t want to have a lot of relationships as they grow. They’d like to have one relationship to grow. They’d like to have an advisor who’s growing with them. But then John introduced me to the whole world of AI and I said, “We’re not talking 10 times anymore. We’re talking 100 times.” I said, “If you apply this new form of thinking, because it is an entirely new form of thinking, to what you’re doing right now, you can see that 10 times is going to happen just by doing three or four things where you’re eliminating waste, you’re eliminating things that just don’t work anymore, changing relationships, changing teamwork, changing collaborations in the marketplace.” But meanwhile, this new world of thinking is making you healthier. It’s making you more fit. So where before you thought you wouldn’t have the energy at 70, you now have more energy at 70 than you had at 50. So you’re the only one who says when it’s going to stop. I’m 82 in three weeks. We’re having this… I’m 82 and I’m way more ambitious at 82 than I was at 52. And the world is, because the world outside in terms of technological capability and access is way, way bigger in my 82nd year than it was in my 52nd year, and I love the growth. I have to tell you that the greatest point where AI is going to have the impact is going to be making money. The big titans, the Metas, the Googles, the Nvidias, what do they have in common? It’s about the money and where AI is being applied most is how you do new things with money. So that’s where the 100 times now comes from. I’ve normalized it. I said, “We’re not talking a 10x game anymore. We’re talking 100x game.” But the number on the scoreboard isn’t the issue. The scoreboard is, are you actually having fun? Louis Diamond: Yeah, we call it living your best business life. That’s our major barometer in charge. John, I don’t know if you could pull up your slides again, but I want to talk about the bridge between stage two in your pyramid to stage three. So that’s from expertise into scalable property. Can you explain how this relates to a financial advisor or an independent business owner and why this concept is so important for the valuation of a business? John Bowen: The book, it’s written for entrepreneurs, but I wanted to create some bridges while we’re together with Louis on really what’s going on for financial advisors and how you can help them. So if they’re at our stage one, Dan and my stage one of The Greater Game, and they want to go to two, they’re kind of dreaming oftentimes, and we want to help them begin creating the architectural structure. And as an advisor, this is really going to encourage everybody to read chapter two, The Greater Security. It talks about really the VFO, Virtual Family Office structure that they want, and you got to help them get financially solid, building personal wealth outside of the business, tax, estate, insurance, business structure. That’s what we all do today. Then though, if they want to move from level two to three, what we find over and over again, advisors are not equipped to do this, because what we’re taking is that founder where everything’s in its head, we’re now helping them move from just having that expertise to having scalable property. This is that codifying the process of building IP that’s transferable. And this is where the real valuation changes. Now, I’m not asking financial advisors to be the IP experts, but what the entrepreneurs want is they want somebody to help them curate and then coordinate between each of these levels. We go from three to four that the founder is indispensable, oftentimes at three. Now we want the team there to be invincible. And it’s not just the individual team as Dan was talking about. It’s the community. The collaboration is where this really takes off. The noise of AI is making it harder to market, but by partnering, particularly as financial advisors, we can very quickly have groups. One of the reasons why I’m collaborating with Dan, I want to help our financial advisors to work with entrepreneurs. Dan wants that research. So this is the natural collaboration. But they’re interested here in governance, self-managing teams. One of the things that Strategic Coach is brilliant at, the pre-transaction they want. And what we find so often is the indispensable discount. So many businesses sell, if they sell at all, they’re selling for three to five times multiplier, not advisory, but traditional businesses. Well, if you can make it to four, all of a sudden you’re now talking to 10 to 15 times multipliers. And think of it as if I’m a buyer and I’ve been involved in 50-some transactions, what happens is if the business is the guy, the gal, they’re the business, then you’re buying a very expensive job type thing. So let’s just keep a simple one. They’re having a couple million dollars of EBITDA. And let’s say the high range of that, five times EBITDA is $10 million. Well, the difference at 15 times two million is 30. Now, a few basis points I don’t really care about. I really care about capturing that difference. And because there’s a machine working without, I can buy that machine and generate that cash flow and it’s also taking advantage of the vision. And then when we get to level four, this is where most advisors make the biggest mistake is, “I’ve won. I’m at level four. I’ve got tremendous wealth.” Okay, but I’m now looking at significance. And I do want to go, “It’s not enduring legacy I’m looking for. I’m looking for active legacy. I’m looking for family governance.” Do I want to continue to build it like Dan and I’m doing at 70? I’m building the business so I can continue doing it as long as I want to do it. At the same time, and I love the impact we have and I know you do too, Louis, for the impact you have. Why not build the platform that’s going to allow you to do that as long as you want to do that? And if you don’t want to do it, let’s create the most value to transfer. When you start having conversations like that with families, entrepreneur families, it just changes, and very few advisors can do that. And that’s what we’re finding. We have a coaching company, training company, we train those things. They’re winning, quite honestly, almost 100% of the time because entrepreneurs didn’t know that was available to them. Louis Diamond: Interesting. It seems like the difference between stage two in your pyramid, to leap to stage three or four, that seems like a pretty massive pivot point for valuation for building a scalable business, having a self-managing company, et cetera. Do you find or have you seen that advisors or entrepreneurs that are in stage two themselves, they kind of pattern-match when they’re working with their own clients and kind of manage their own clients into stage two, or is it not really connected? John Bowen: I think that once you get the bigger picture and see the greater game, you can help your clients. That is a very small percentage. Remember, it was only 5.4 of when we surveyed successful entrepreneurs were actually playing the greater game, all four levels, the 10 greater multipliers. So I think what we tend to do is we get stuck on what we can do. And all the training is for level one for financial advisors. We don’t know how to guide them through the other levels. And really, the big difference from two to three, Dan and I’ve talked about this a lot, and I think Dan’s one of the biggest champions of this, is collaboration, putting together strategic partnerships. It could be with your competitors. This is for entrepreneurs, competitors, it could be various vendor partnerships. But the ability to open up markets that way when you have now put together in level two your IP, value creation’s huge. For advisors, it’s putting together partnerships with centers of influence. When we survey top financial advisors, 70% of their best clients came through COI, Centers of Influence with accountants, attorneys, investment bankers, and so on. Well, let’s do it on purpose, be successful on purpose. Louis Diamond: Dan, question for you. In all your experience working with successful financial advisors, insurance producers, probably any entrepreneur, what do you feel are the most common things that folks do unintentionally to really hurt their enterprise value even long before, or if ever, they decide to sell their business? Dan Sullivan: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is they stay entirely within their industry. One of the first questions that we ask our entrepreneurs when they come into the program and where you see it most is in the professions: lawyers, accountants, engineers, architects. I’ll say, “Well, what is it that you are?” And they’ll say, “Well, I’m a lawyer. I’m a tax lawyer.” And I said, “Are you a tax lawyer or are you an entrepreneur who has a specialty in tax law?” Okay. It makes a big difference, because if you see yourself as a tax lawyer, then you’re saying that you’re a better paid factory worker. You’re a manual laborer. But if you’re an entrepreneur, it’s a fairly recent idea in human history. There’s always been entrepreneurs, but it wasn’t until about the beginning of the 1800s that you start seeing this really different class of people in the marketplace, who, it didn’t matter how they were born, they were taking advantage of some new multiplier technology. Steam power being a great example. Around 1800, steam power came on. And anybody who had a bright vision for themselves and had the wherewithal to figure out what needs could be satisfied with a new technology, all of a sudden they became rich. They became rich. And it was very disruptive, because up until then it was based on aristocracy and you were born into wealth or you were born into poverty. There was no crossover. So what we’re saying is anybody who comes into Strategic Coach, I said, “I’m not going to tell you anything about your particular industry.” I said, “You know all the best practice people in your industry and they have workshops and they have conferences and you go to them, but they don’t know how to be entrepreneurs. You know how to create a really well-paying job, but you haven’t created a company.” A company is a totally different realm and I would say the vast majority of entrepreneurs, 95% of entrepreneurs haven’t really created a company. They’ve just created a really well-paying job which requires their presence and their attendance. I said, “You don’t get any payout for your company. If you’re the company, you need to have a structure.” I’ll give you an example. We started the company in 1989, and we’re about 270 times what our first year revenues were, and that was a great year. I was very happy for the first year, but we’re about 270 times. Along the way, what I did is I created other coaches so it wasn’t just Dan, the coach. So we have 16 other coaches. And I’ll give you a little example. In 1994, that year our company did 144 workshop days, 36 per quarter. One coach: me. Last year we did 600 workshop days and I did 12. 588 were done by other coaches. And our coaches are great. They’re clients who have coaching instincts and they do it. So about four years ago, I met one of our clients who’s an M&A specialist, and I laid out all the facts just in conversation, “This is our revenues. We have no debt. It’s repeatable income, around 70% is repeatable for one year.” I put the whole structure together. And I said, “So right off the top, I don’t have any relatives on staff.” The first thing they look for, “Any relatives working for you?” And he gave me a number. It was a big number. It was probably four times revenue for that year. He said, “We got a lot of structures.” Then something happened in the marketplace, and this is a great breakthrough that the US Patent Office sometime in the last 10 years recognized that up until about 10 years ago, to get a patent, you had to have a technological component for what you were doing. Sometime in the last 10 years, the patent bureaus decided that the internet is the technological component. So they’ve introduced education and entertainment as patentable processes. So in the last three years, we’ve gotten 82 patents. 82 patents. And these are our thinking tools, Lifetime Extender, Free Focus and Buffer Days. You know the routine that you learn in the first three days, and we’ve got 82 of them. We’re averaging about 25. I get a new patent about every two weeks. So I saw this M&A specialist, and I said, “This has happened in the last three years.” And he said, “Immediately it doubles the valuation of your company.” So what John’s saying here, as you go through the four stages, more and more you get paid for your creativity, retail, you get paid for your retail. But if you structure it, you record it, you package it, it is even greater than what you got paid for your creativity. Louis Diamond: Super interesting personal anecdote, and I appreciate you sharing that because that definitely did drive the point home for me. I see the applicability to probably any industry, but especially to any financial advisor. Dan Sullivan: Oh, yeah. Louis Diamond: The best RIA firms, the best advisors, they pretty much all start off with a cult of personality founder who’s the rainmaker. And then the practices that really grow and scale and are valuable are more platforms. That’s what private equity wants to invest in. And those are the firms that get the higher multiples. Dan Sullivan: Yeah. So the big thing is there’s a really, really great IP lawyer. He’s in our program and he’s made the breakthrough, and he’s the first IP lawyer that doesn’t charge by the hour. He charges by the patent. If the IP lawyer charges by the hour, it’s a very slow patent. If he charges by the patent, it’s a very fast patent. But the big thing, he showed a slide that in just big corporations, 1980, you took big corp, Fortune 500, the S&P 500, more than 80% of their valuation was tangible. It was property, it was real estate, it was fleets, it was equipment. Last year, more than 80% were intangibles. It was your ideas, intellectual. If you look at Elon Musk, it’s all intellectual capital. If you look at Meta, you look at anything, it’s intellectual. It’s not tangibles. So we’ve entered into that new world and AI has introduced us to that new world. It’s new processes, new structures, new approaches and it’s really interesting. It’s hard for entrepreneurs to get their idea that your creativity is actually property. Louis Diamond: It sounds like the ultimate challenge for anyone listening is translate your process, your ideas, the stuff that you’re doing by instinct as you both had said, and turn it into something patentable or something repeatable that another advisor, another executive, another owner can pick up and deploy and scale. John Bowen: We share the process in chapter four. It’s the fourth greater multiplier. And we actually share Caldwell, the attorney that Dan’s talking about, his story and the value creation. He’s now the major player in that space. And this is where we as advisors, we’re given a twofer, Dan and Louis, is that you can help your clients, but you can do this yourself too. You’ve been involved in a number of large transactions. The difference, I had a $2 billion advisory practice I sold in ’98, and we sold for 16 times earnings. And a big part of it, we were in that blue ocean. We had agents that we created and strategic process that would run without me, and it did type thing. And it continued to grow and went for about 10 fold what I sold for a number of years later. This is something that’s very real. Louis Diamond: Absolutely. I got two more questions for you guys because I know you’re both busy. For an advisor who feels like they’ve won the growth game, they grow 10, 15, 20% per year, they’re charged up, they’re on the Barron’s list, the Forbes list, they’re hitting their AUM milestones, they built an amazing team, they have a family member in the business. They have everything that anyone could want. What does the next game look like for them? What’s the next frontier once you’ve achieved all those things that from the outside looking in, seems like you have it all? What’s the next game to play? John Bowen: Well, we’re going to both say The Greater Game, but the- Dan Sullivan: Well, tell them about the dashboard, John, because the book is just part of the deal here. It gives you the landscape. There’s a great tool that comes with the book. So tell them about the dashboard. John Bowen: Really what we wanted to do is to create kind of a community just around the book. Dan and I and team built a dashboard. We were very creative on naming, thegreatergamedashboard.com. You can go in and we’re now studying every month over 500 successful entrepreneurs. We have that data in here. You’ll be able to see how you compare at each of these stages, the four stages, the 10 multipliers. And you’re going to get specific recommendations. This is for entrepreneurs. But again, you should do it. If you’re a financial advisor, you have an equity ownership, you should definitely be doing it as well. And one of the things that we see over and over again, and Louis, you probably see this a lot in the conversations. They have advisors who have already won. They don’t know what the next game is. And it’s easy to check out at that point. It’s easy to frustrate the next generation of leaders and so on. If you take the time to really see what the opportunities are and architect to realize that vision, you can create, whether it’s selling the practice, creating tremendous value there or designing a role for yourself, maybe it’s executive chairman type for that business that you can guide it with the vision and what you’ve brought and strategy. But bring that team up. That’s going to create so much value, so much impact and you can design it for the life that you want. And that’s where I get very excited. Louis Diamond: I can hear the passion in your voice. Dan, let’s finish with you. Given all of your experience working with entrepreneurs, advisors, business owners, et cetera, what’s the one move that you’ve seen the most successful entrepreneurs in your orbit make that’s changed the trajectory of their firms and their life more than anything else? Dan Sullivan: I’ll answer it in a little roundabout way. Periodically, I have a thinking tool. I said, “If everything was taken away from you as an entrepreneur and they moved you 1,000 miles away, what’s the one thing that you would take with you? It has to be portable. So what is the most portable thing that you have that you would start over again with the greatest value that you had created previously? What would it be? And then you would rebuild what you’ve already created, but you would do it much faster. What would be the one thing?” It’s an interesting thought. But in our concept, it’s called unique ability, that there’s something about you, as an individual, that first of all gave you enough confidence to become an entrepreneur because it’s risky. It’s a risky proposition. It’s guessing and betting and it’s risky business and it’s unique ability. So the starting point for all growth in Strategic Coach is that there’s something about you that’s absolutely unique. You don’t have any competitors on this and it has two qualities. One is that you’re so good at it, you don’t take it seriously. You’ve done this since you were a child and it just comes to you naturally and you don’t see the significance of it. When you’re in Coach, you start seeing the significance of it. And the second thing is you just absolutely love doing it. It’s what you love doing most of all. It comes to you naturally. You don’t even have to think about it. And then you begin to realize that anything else you’re doing as the founder and the owner of your company, probably somebody else can do. So you’re doing 20 things, but really you should be doing three things. The other 17 things still need to be done but not by you. And that’s the breakthrough. You have to simplify in order to multiply. Louis Diamond: I absolutely love that. I know when I was in Coach, that was my biggest takeaway or realization was figuring out what my unique ability was because I think the two components, they’re so critical. Just because you’re good at something, if you don’t like it, then you shouldn’t build a company around it and that shouldn’t be what you should be doing. It should be the things that you’re world-class at, you don’t have competition in, but at the same time, you actually enjoy it. It lights you up, lets you get out of bed, et cetera. Dan Sullivan: I’ve got a client in July. I’ll see him in July and he started with me. This is before I actually started the workshop program. This is when I was still doing one-on-one client. He’s a wealth manager here in Toronto and I’ve seen him every quarter for 39 years. And he’s way over 100 times what he was there, and he says, “I got to get simpler. I got to get simpler.” He says, “I’m doing too much and everything.” So this is almost 120 quarters he’s done this. He’s 75. He runs six marathons a year. He’s automatically guaranteed Boston. He’s automatically guaranteed London. He’s automatically guaranteed New York and everything like that and just remarkable. John Bowen: And he’s just getting started. Dan Sullivan: Yeah, he’s 72, 73, says it just gets better as you go along. One thing, an interesting statistic, and I don’t think, John, I’ve actually told you this. So the US is the best research economy in the world. The number of research looking at how Americans perform is really interesting, but they take the decades with entrepreneurs. So they have from 10 to 20 entrepreneurs, growth of entrepreneurs, 10 years old, and then they go up through the decades. The biggest percentage of change in any decade is from 70 to 80. There’s been more new entrepreneurs growing between 70 and 80 than any other decade as a percentage. The reason is because it’s mostly idea work that we’re doing right now. We’re not doing manual labor anymore. We’re doing idea work. And these are individuals who say, “I love what I’m doing. I’m more useful.” They’ve worked for someone else for 70 years and then they become an entrepreneur, and of course AI is helping them do this. So we’re in a vastly new world now. 82 years, this is the biggest change that I’ve seen just in the last three years, is just a new world. And the greater game is now possible. The greater game that John, what he’s structuring, this game was not possible 25 years ago and it’s possible now. Louis Diamond: It’s a great charge to everyone listening and a good reminder to pick up a copy of his book. I know I certainly will. I wouldn’t normally ask you where to buy it, but I assume Amazon and just Google it or ChatGPT, I’m sure you can find it. Dan Sullivan: They’ll be in all the bookstores. Louis Diamond: There we go. Thank you both. John Bowen: Thank you. Mindy Diamond: As a financial advisor, you hold yourself to the highest standards of integrity, honesty, and credibility. You are successful because you take your professional responsibility seriously and are dedicated to your clients, but are you living your best business life? Are your goals aligned with your firms or could a better option exist? Should I Stay or Should I Go? is a book written with you in mind. It’s a self-guided journey that walks you through the key steps that we take with our advisor clients. This strategic thought process and roadmap to professional self-discovery is designed to help you ask the right questions and think critically and objectively, whether you’re considering change or not. Learn how to get your copy at diamond-consultants.com/thebook.

Nick Hubert and Taylor Gentry of Panoramic Capital Partners talk about helping business owners align personal significance, wealth, and business value through a long-term advisory framework.

Jason and Mindy Diamond unpack the real advisor transition playbook—from due diligence and culture fit to portability, enterprise value, and the evolving landscape of advisor choice.

Rafael Loureiro on why estate planning may become one of the next major advisor differentiators and how AI could turn it into a continuous planning process.

After three decades at Edward Jones, Ricky Smith realized he wanted more than growth: he wanted ownership. Now, his independent firm is 50% larger than the business he left behind.

Leah Sciabarrasi of Crestwood Advisors shares how an $8B firm was built over time—through evolving leadership, disciplined growth, and a focus on scaling without disrupting the client experience.

A continuation of the Advisor Transition Playbook, this episode focuses on how the inputs to due diligence are evolving and how newer factors, such as AI and enterprise value, are shaping how advisors assess firms and long-term fit today.

Ben Domingue shares why he left UBS after building a $2B business, how advising entrepreneurs pushed him toward ownership, and what changes when you “eat your own home cooking.”

Wen Nottebohm of Cresset offers a next-gen view on building a career path, earning trust with UHNW clients, leveraging mentors, and how AI is reshaping expectations.

James Conole built Root Financial to ~$2.4B by focusing on content-driven growth, creating steady inbound demand and structuring the business to support it from the ground up.

Ryan Guth, Founder of Goldfin Group, talks about moving beyond Edward Jones to build an independent business defined by control, differentiation, entrepreneurial alignment, and how this allows him to serve as a “conductor” to his clients.

A companion to the annual Advisor Transition Report, this episode explores what’s driving advisor movement and what it signals about control, growth, and evolving business models.

Todd Stankiewicz and Joe Castiglie share why leaving Merrill to launch SYKON Capital allowed them to redefine success, expand their toolkit, and combine institutional investing with behavioral insight in service of their clients.

Todd Vincent and Dylan Ripley left Edward Jones to build Cedarwood Financial Partners—then faced a lawsuit that lasted nearly two years. They share how resilience, messaging, and focus helped them rebuild and grow.

Kestra’s CEO, President, and private equity partner discuss scale, capital, and why this business is no longer an income game — it’s a wealth game.

The founder and CEO of Elevation Point joins Louis Diamond to discuss minority capital, ownership alignment, data strategy, and how independent advisors can build scalable enterprise value without sacrificing control.

Many top advisors look successful on paper yet feel stuck. This Industry Update explores why “winning” can create new constraints, and how freedom, control, and enterprise value reshape what comes next.

Having built and sold two world-class firms, the founder of Rise Growth Partners shares lessons on leadership, innovation, and how growth requires constant reinvention.

For Dennis Morton, succession isn’t a future problem, it’s a leadership obligation. Drawing on his experience as an Army platoon leader and co-founder of an independent firm, he shares how technical competence, accountability, and bold goals drive culture, next-gen leadership, and a business that can thrive beyond any one person.

A candid conversation on rethinking custody from the ground up—and why simplification, aligned economics, and integrated technology are becoming critical for advisors building modern, scalable firms.

Succession doesn’t have to mean slowing down. This episode explores how Tim Krueger and his $1.4B Merrill team rethought succession, liquidity, and legacy to create long-term continuity.

As firms pursue scale, advisors face a critical question: how do you grow without compromising clients? This conversation with Jason Ozur of Lido Advisors examines what intentional growth really looks like and what scale can enable when culture and clarity come first.

2025 quietly reset expectations around growth, capital, and scale. In this Industry Update, we examine what last year set in motion and how advisors can position their businesses for what comes next in 2026.

Advisors are now weighing options once reserved for institutional executives. This conversation examines how a collaborative initiative between Diamond Consultants and Dynasty Investment Bank delivers objective, investment-banking-level analysis to help advisors evaluate value, control, and long-term outcomes with clarity.

Quotient Wealth Partners proves that enterprise-scale growth doesn’t require private equity or shortcuts. This episode breaks down how discipline, culture, and organic momentum drove the firm’s rise to $4.4B—without sacrificing independence or client experience.

FINNY Co-Founder Eden Ovadia shares how AI is transforming advisor prospecting: automating outreach, matching advisors with ideal clients, and freeing time for deeper human connection. A forward-looking conversation on what growth will look like in the next era of wealth management.

Park Avenue Capital CEO Pete Tiboris shares how he and his partners built a $4B enterprise inside Northwestern Mutual through intentional design, a pod-based advisor structure, a culture built on fit and alignment, and an unwavering focus on the client experience.

In this replay of an engaging live webinar, four advisors who left Merrill, UBS, Wells, and Morgan Stanley share what tipped the scale, what surprised them, and what they wish they’d known before making a move.

After 18 years at Merrill, Neil Rubinstein and his team joined Rockefeller Global Family Office, finding a platform purpose-built for ultra-high-net-worth clients and redefining what “exclusive access” and extraordinary growth can look like for elite advisors.

Alex Markowitz, a former Merrill advisor, shares how independence gave him freedom to build a firm defined by empathy, collaboration, and a “financial physician” approach to client care.

As TROs and lawsuits make headlines, two top attorneys who specialize in transitions share how advisors can minimize risk, protect client relationships, and make a clean move with confidence.

Having built and sold two world-class firms, the founder of Rise Growth Partners shares lessons on leadership, innovation, and how growth requires constant reinvention.

Former Edward Jones advisor Steve Davis shares how he built a lean, focused independent firm with LPL and what freedom really means.

The CEO of Sanctuary Wealth shares how the firm doubled in size, redefining supportive independence and advisor growth in wealth management.

A guide to advisor transitions: due diligence, culture, deals, client comms,and lessons from the $129B Merrill breakaway.

A $129B team left Merrill to launch OpenArc Corporate Advisory, the largest breakaway in industry history. In this special episode, Dynasty’s Shirl Penney joins Louis Diamond to share an inside perspective on why the deal is about more than scale, what drove the move, and how it signals a new era for independence and the industry at large.

Few advisors build a multi-billion-dollar RIA. John Krambeer has done it twice. In this candid conversation, the Validus Capital CEO reflects on his journey, how independence has evolved, and the hard-won lessons that guide him now.

The CEO of Cetera Financial Group shares insights on independence, private equity, and balancing scale with service, plus what the future holds for advisors and firms.

A special mid-year update with Jason and Louis Diamond on deals, transitions, and recruiting trends shaping 2025—and what advisors can expect in the months ahead.

Julia Healey, CEO of United Charitable, shares insights on DAFs, their value to clients, and the potential positive impact they can have on an advisor’s business.

Ben Valore-Caplan, founder of Syntrinsic, shares how he built a $2.9B mission-driven RIA to serve foundations, endowments, and values-driven institutions, the evolution of impact & ESG investing, why he sold to IMA Financial Group, and more.