The God Journey - 2005

Christmas has made quite a splash in the media this year–from holiday greetings in stores, to whether or not to have congregational services on Christmas morning. These media-concocted controversies give Brad and Wayne a chance to ruminate about all the hoopla surrounding Christmas and to consider how we as believers can truly make an impact in the world—not just on a holiday, but by letting Christ make himself known continually through us. Also check out our new Archive that includes listing by chronological order, by topics and has a special section for guests who have appeared on our podcasts.

This might be the podcast you want to skip. It is not for the squeamish. Wayne and Brad pick their way through the minefield of how our preoccupation with money and possessions can blind us to God’s reality in our lives. Jesus warned us that trying to follow him and pursuing our own economic self-interest were mutually exclusive decision-making priorities, and said we can only end up loving one of them. Good stewardship can become an excuse to seek our own financial security instead of finding it, and all our other security, in him alone. This is sure to become a recurring theme since income and spending permeate almost everything we do in this world.

Why would we ever think we’re safer following the crowd, or following another human being, when the King of Kings wants to be our shepherd and lead us into the true freedom of God’s life? He alone is the way, the truth and the life. Learning to live dependent on him rather than our own performance or the false security of so-called experts, will allow him to unravel our religious ways of thinking and free us to go on the journey with him that opens the door to the real thing—life in his kingdom!

We got them started, and now we’re not sure we can get them to stop! After our last podcast, Sara and Kelly were still talking about some of their issues in living outside the system. We turned the microphones back on and thought you’d appreciate the issues they’re facing today as they talk about their feelings regarding corporate worship, their children, and finding fellowship with other people, especially other women, as their journey’s continue. So those of you who asked for more Sara and Kelly, your prayers were answered before you even asked them!

Well, many of you asked for it, and we were happy to provide it. On this edition of The God Journey we invite Wayne’s wife, Sara, and Brad’s wife, Kelly, to join us in the studio and share ‘the rest of the story’. From their unique perspectives we get a different look into how life in the system as ‘pastor’s wives’ affected them, and more importantly how God has sorted out these things in their lives in the journey since. We hope you enjoy meeting these two incredible women and are encouraged by what Father is doing in them. Below you’’ll find Kelly Cummings with daughter Taylor on the left and Sara Jacobsen with granddaughter Aimee on the right. And if you’re dying to see Chipper, and God only knows why that would be true, you can click here.

When people begin to see through the illusions of organized religion, many have the tendency to through out all structures, thinking they are inherently evil. Are they? Some feedback from Wayne and Brad’s podcast on George Barna’s Revolution and some listener questions regarding structure and associations give them an opportunity to sort through this issue, considering where structures can be a blessing by helping to facilitate Gods’ working, and where they supplant it and distract people from the simple joy of living out of their relationship with Jesus.

As Wayne and Brad respond to a recent flood of reader comments and letters, they wander into a discussion about the challenge of living in Jesus without having all the details figured out or having the results of our circumstances guaranteed. Our safety is not found in our plans being fulfilled but in our growing friendship with Jesus. When our confidence is vested in him alone we will be able to navigate the ruggedness and uncertainty of the journey with his wisdom and grace.

Is there a revolution afoot in the body of Christ. George Barna seems to think so and in his latest book, Revolution, he describes a large and growing group of committed Christians who have given up on the traditional congregational model of Christianity. And instead of calling this an unhealthy trend that needs to be reversed, he embraces it as a movement that will in the next 20 years radically alter what we call church. Wayne and Brad examine the contents and conclusions of his book, recognizing both the encouragement it can provide for those thinking outside the box, and the dangers it offers to reorganize something in human terms, that only God can accomplish.

They couldn’t resist! Brad and Wayne had so much feedback from their previous podcast on being involved with children outside the box, that they wanted to share some of it with you and continue the dialog. As you will see, this is not just an issue for parents, but for all of Father’s family. Responding to children as a vital part of our lives and our engagement with the body will not only enrich them, but ourselves as well.

Most people who find themselves bored with the Sunday morning production, often keep going because they feel it is important for their children. How will their children survive spiritually without Sunday schools and youth groups? In the latest podcast Wayne and Brad examine children unplugged from organized religion. The question might now be how can they survive without it, but will they ever thrive within it? Young children and older teens alike are finding that thinking outside the box can be a wide open door to let them experience the life of Jesus with even greater reality and engagement.

Ever wondered what it looks like up close as someone begins to sort out the reality of living with God as Father? In an engaging email Wayne received a few weeks ago, David shares how his relationship with God has taken on a fresh and new dimension in his own life. His observation and comments open a door for Brad and Wayne to comment on some of the key pieces of understanding that are an important part in living with God the way Father has invited us to do so. (Our new music on this Podcast is provided courtesy of Greg and Jen Campbell at Basic Music Ministries. Click here to hear their lastest album on iTunes.)

Join us for a trip to the land down under as we offer another in our continuing series of interviews with people all over the world who are living this journey with great freedom and joy. In this podcast Wayne interviews Kevin Smith of Lancefield, Victoria in Australia as he shares the lessons a group of believers have experienced over the past 20 years of living as a relational community of God�s people. �Kevin has been an older brother to me in this journey and has encouraged me and confirmed so many of the things God has put on my heart over the ten years we�ve been friends and brothers.� says Wayne. As Kevin shares their story and the transitions Jesus took them through, he touches on our growing trust in Father’s care, their freedom from institutional expectations, the community it has spawned, and its effect on their children. If you would like to correspond with Kevin he can be reached at: [[email protected]].

Wayne and Brad follow-up last week’s podcast on Koinonia Killers by responding to some of the comments and concerns that were sent in after the show. It gives them a chance to focus on those things that lead to deeper fellowship and greater life in him and how we can love those who we are not always drawn to easily. It’s really about unlocking the treasure God has put in all of us and which sin and shame have twisted and distorted.

Christian fellowship isn’t rocket science. People passionate about Jesus who get near each other find themselves sharing his life without much work at all� unless something gets in the way. And believe us, things can get in the way. We call those koinonia killers and Brad and Wayne not only discuss the kinds of things people can do that sabotage, even unwittingly, but also what others can do to turn those moments into doorways of growth instead of barriers to bodylife.

Brad and Wayne follow up The Ladysmith Story with comments from our listeners as a springboard to talk about the often-painful process of finding freedom outside the box of organized religion. Sometimes people get to go together, as the brothers and sisters in South Africa. And sometimes we might go it alone, as Daniel from Texas found out when he could no longer in good conscience follow the rules of his traditional congreation. Wayne and Brad respond to his email and the challenges he’s facing from friends and family as he sorts out what God has for him. His story will be famliar to many of you.

Meet Stefan Vosloo and through him some wonderful brothers and sisters in South Africa. He was a pastor of a growing Vineyard church in Ladysmith before the hunger of that congregation for real relationship with God sent them on an amazing journey. God began to touch five things in their life together to move them from an old covenant religion to New Testament reality: priest, Sabbath, temple, sacrifice and tithing. His work in them and their response to him forever changed their life together. Wayne shares with Brad an interview he did with Stefan during his trip to South Africa last month. The process they went through and the life they have found in him together will encourage your own journey.

A recent letter by New Zealander Andrew Strom has caused a bit of a stir by many who are thinking outside the box of organized religion. He addresses what he calls out-of-the-church Christians, which we think is a bit of an oxymoron. How can a Christian be outside the church? His observations and accusations provide a springboard to discuss life outside the box and give us each an opportunity to reflect on our own personal journey and how it is sorting out in our lives. Wayne and Brad examine this letter along with many who added their comments to our earlier blog.

Why do passionate disciples of the Living God continue to get caught in the system of religious obligation? Because they have not understood that God has satisfied in himself all that he would ever require of us to have full and complete access to his presence. He did that in the cross of Jesus Christ, and if we understood the power of the cross, we would never fall victim again to the manipulations and appeals of religious obligation. In their latest podcast Brad and Wayne discuss what happened at the cross and how it frees us from the bondage of religion so that we can live together as Father�s family.

During his recent trip to South Africa Wayne met with many brothers and sisters who are in various stages of transition from the system of religious obligation and sorting out what it means to live as God�s people outside of institutional approaches. Wayne�s experiences provides an excellent backdrop for he and Brad to discuss further the transitions many of us go through and how some are finding meaningful expressions of body life around the world.

Brad and I taped an extra podcast before I left for South Africa and we are releasing it now. So many of our institutional approaches to the life of Jesus are formulated around a truncated gospel�one that is incomplete and thus focused on the wrong priorities. Jesus didn’t preach the gospel of the church or even a gospel of salvation. He taught the gospel of the kingdom�where his Father reigns over all. When we lose sight of that we end up with incomplete pictures of his work in us and the world, and end up investing our time and energies into that which matters little. We introduced you to Tom Mohn in our fourth podcast and in this one we use more of Wayne’s interview with Tom to help us focus our hearts on that which counts most.

Moving from an institutional mindset about body life to a relational one is not an easy process, and often the journey takes very different people through very similar stages. After Wayne and Brad following up on the leadership discussion in their last webcast with questions and comments submitted by others, they turn their attention to the process so many go through when we begin to hunger for more of God’s life than their finding in their current institutions.

The place of leadership in institutional expressions of church life have been clearly defined for centuries. One of the great joys of thinking outside the box of organized religion is that we have to rethink issues like leadership and discipline in an entirely new context. Brad and Wayne respond to one of our listeners as he opens a discussion on what leadership looks like in more relational expressions of body life and how it can function far more effectively in that context than in how we’ve traditionally thought about it.

Living relationally in body life begins with our own relationship to the one who creates the reality and power of that body life. Brad and Wayne explore our own personal relationship to the Head of the Church, how that is essential to the power of the New Covenant and how each of us can share an ongoing dialog with him as a daily part of our lives. They also respond to comments and questions from their listeners.

Living in the Relationship is designed to encourage people outside the box to go on and thrive in their personal relationship with God through Jesus. Brad and Wayne also tackle the difficult question, “What do you do when you feel like God is asking you to do something you’re not ready for?” and comment on some recent letters from listeners. If you have questions or subjects you�d like them to address in future shows, please be sure to let them know by commenting on this blog, emailing them, or calling the question/comment line at (805) 626-4212.

Our Sixth Webcast of The God Journey is entitledBelievers Outside the Box. Wayne and Brad discuss three articles that have appeared in major publications about believers who have left traditional congregations. It is topic we only scratched the surface of, but I�m sure we�ll revisit it more and more. Thanks to all who helped us think through this topic with your contributions through our blogs and comment lines. We are blessed that so many of you listen in to our Webcast and find it a helpful resource to thinking outside the box. If you have questions or subjects you�d like us to address in future shows, please be sure to let us know.

Wayne interviews Dave Fredrickson, right, who tells the story of a group of people in Sacramento, California who over the last five years deconstructed the institutional aspects of their fellowship and are learning together how to live in God’s life and freedom. Over the last five years in simple acts of obedience they have deconstructed their congregational life. In November they stopped meeting on Sunday mornings. In December the staff voluntarily resigned their salaries, and in January they sold the building. In a story reminiscent of “That Lot in Fairlee”, they are now learning to live as God’s people in Sacramento and are discovering a renewal they had not imagined. In this special webcast, Wayne interviews one of the key people in this process, former pastor Dave Fredrickson, as he relates their journey and the lessons they’ve learned along the way. Here is Dave’s contact information in case you want to contact him after hearing the webcast: [email protected].

Let us introduce you to Tom Mohn, a brother whose been on this journey a long time. Wayne met him five years ago in Tulsa, Oklahoma and has enjoyed a growing friendship with him since. The last time he was there he interviewed Tom who shared four things that God used in Tom’s life to shape his life in him. You’ll be surprised at some of them. If you’d like to contact Tom he can be reached at tmohn @cox.net.

Brad and Wayne take a look the recent deaths of Terry Shiavo and Pope John Paul II and the reactions to them that have dominated our headlines and news shows for the past two weeks. What are we to make of these historic moments? Feel free to use the blog comment section here, our voice mail comment line at (805) 988-4409 or email to give us your reactions questions or insights if you want to add to the dialogue.

Thinking outside the box means pushing away from the safe, but boring confines of routine, and growing in a dynamic relationship with Jesus. Brad and Wayne also discuss the gay marriage debate.

Brad and Wayne discuss the show, their own personal journeys and how God brought them together for this endeavor. We look forward to growing with you in this new endeavor and value your input and prayers as we explore what this might be able to do to encourage people in the life Jesus came to bring us.