The Gospel of Direct Experience

We welcome Dr. Lucille Tures, psychologist, spiritual director, teacher, and founder of Theama Institute, for a conversation about Christian mysticism, spiritual abuse, and the life-long work of integration. Lucille shares her experience growing up in a Christian mystical environment, her later involvement in a coercive spiritual community with a narcissistic mentor, and the painful but generative process of helping rebuild that community around trust rather than control. We explore why beautifully "correct" theology and powerful mystical experiences can become entangled with subtle forms of authority, performance, and manipulation—and why Lucille came to believe that spiritual communities must learn to trust the soul rather than override it. The conversation also turns toward Lucille's writing in The Whole and the Holy, her understanding of mysticism as the ongoing tension between gnosis and mystery, and her vision of integration as central to theosis: the reconciliation of the divine and human through the messy, sacred reality of being fully ourselves. Episode Highlights [00:00] Introduction Jeff and Michael introduce Dr. Lucille Tures, her work with Theoma Institute, and her writing on psychology, theology, mysticism, and integration. [03:11] Mystical Beginnings Lucille describes growing up in a Christian mystical household where angels, altars, and spiritual experience were treated as natural rather than strange. [06:28] What Is Mysticism? Lucille offers a working definition of mysticism involving experiential relationship, a unitive goal, and a non-dogmatic openness to mystery. [14:48] Inside a High-Control Spiritual Organization Lucille reflects on her experience in a coercive mystical community and how beautiful theology can still become entangled with control, performance, and spiritual abuse. [23:16] Trust the Soul After a painful communal reckoning, Lucille describes rebuilding spiritual community around the radical principle that each person's soul contains its own deepest guidance. [28:37] Integration as Theosis Lucille explains why psychology and spirituality cannot finally be separated, and how the work of becoming fully human is also the work of divine transformation. [31:02] Gnosticism, Eden, and the Fall The conversation turns to Gnostic readings of scripture, the story of Eden, and Lucille's understanding of the Fall as an inner experience of separation rather than a literal divine punishment. [36:23] The Problem of Evil Lucille discusses evil, harm, misperception, and the need to name destructive patterns without projecting them only onto other people or opposing groups. [45:45] Hope and Shadow Lucille closes by reflecting on what gives her hope: the shadow coming into the light, the possibility of shared values, and the beauty of people learning to know and love themselves well. Continue the Conversation What did you think about this conversation? Tell us at [email protected] or reach out at: https://www.gospelofdirectexperience.com/#contact.

Molly Baskette has spent decades helping progressive churches come alive. A longtime UCC minister, preacher, author of Real Good Church, and self-described transformation junkie, Molly has recently made a major vocational turn: leaving parish ministry and stepping into work as a psychedelically assisted spiritual care provider. That's plenty to talk about right there! But we also discuss calling, burn out, and leaving church well: not in bitterness or collapse, but with loads of gratitude, honesty, grief work, and devotion. We also reflect on the gifts and limits of the church, the pastoral persona, depression as a spiritual signal, and why direct encounters with God, with the body, with nature, and with non-ordinary states of consciousness may be exactly what many Christians are hungry for. Find Molly: https://www.mollybaskette.com/ https://mollybaskette.substack.com/ Episode Highlights [00:00] PART 1: Introducing Molly PART 2: Psychedelics [03:39] Outside Approved Channels Molly and Michael discuss why psychedelics and other mystical experiences often feel off-limits in church culture. Molly traces her psychedlic path from its vanilla origins to her most recent powerful encounter. [14:20] Real Good Drugs Molly describes her call to support psychedelic journeys as a form of spiritual midwifery. [17:08] Here's the Next Call Molly reflects on depression, microdosing, and the slow unfolding of a new call beyond parish ministry. PART 3: An Exit Interview for the Christian Church [21:00] Gratitude Molly reflects on leaving church well—with gratitude and a desire to end before burnout became collapse. [26:40] The Pastoral Persona Jeff, Molly, and Michael reflect on the pastoral persona: the useful, powerful self ministers create to serve others, and the inner work of recognizing it without letting it consume the whole soul. [36:01] Smallatics and the Cutting Edge Molly names the exhaustion of church administration and the relief of moving toward work where more energy goes directly to liberation, transformation, and helping people come alive. [39:05] Contact with Spirit Jeff, Michael, and Molly wonder whether the church's hunger for justice also needs a deeper hunger for direct contact with Spirit. [47:58] Devotional Revolution? Molly reflects on the shift from discipline to devotion, and Michael wonders what it would mean for a whole culture to be broken open and reassembled by love. Continue the Conversation What did you think about this conversation? Tell us at [email protected] or reach out at: https://www.gospelofdirectexperience.com/#contact.