The Great Careers Program

Everyone agrees careers education matters. So why does it keep ending up on the periphery of school life and one person's responsibility?In this episode Liv and Marian ask a deceptively simple question: what is a great careers program, and whose job is it actually? They zoom into the evidence on best practice, including the Gatsby Benchmarks from the UK and where Australia sits by comparison, and zoom out to a systems view of why this work keeps getting pushed to the edges even when policy and school vision statements say otherwise. Drawing on Donella Meadows' systems thinking framework, they make the case that if careers education is marginalised, that's not an accident. It might be the system working exactly as it was designed.Along the way, Liv unpacks what "career," "career development," and "careers education" actually mean and why the distinction matters, and Marian traces the historical decisions that built the "grammar of schooling" and what Meadows would say about judging a system's purpose by what it actually produces, not what it claims. You'll leave with two simple starting points: a mapping exercise from Liv, and a walk around your own school with fresh eyes from Marian.Plus, this episode's "I Didn't Know That Was a Thing" comes from an unlikely source: Marian's five year old son Hugo, who is keenly interested in deep sea research and isn't that bothered about how one goes to the toilet while on a submersible.Head to the Substack for this episode's "Take This To The Meeting" resource where you can unpack the concepts of this episode with your school team. Research and thinking referenced in this episode:World Economic Forum (2025) — Future of Jobs Report 2025https://www.weforum.org/publications/the-future-of-jobs-report-2025/Career Industry Council of Australia / National Careers Institute (2022) — Australian Blueprint for Career Development(2nd ed.)https://www.yourcareer.gov.au/resources/australian-blueprint-for-career-developmentHolman, J. (2014, updated 2024) — The Gatsby Benchmarks / Good Career Guidancehttps://www.gatsby.org.uk/education/activity/good-career-guidance/OECD (2024–2025) — PISA 2022 Career Readiness Dashboard and The State of Global Teenage Career Preparationhttps://www.oecd.org/en/data/dashboards/teenage-career-readiness.htmlhttps://www.oecd.org/en/publications/the-state-of-global-teenage-career-preparation_d5f8e3f2-en.htmlSchleicher, A. (2015) — Education in an Uncertain World, Project Syndicatehttps://www.project-syndicate.org/commentary/education-technological-skills-more-important-by-andreas-schleicher-2015-12Career Industry Council of Australia (2025) — Australia's Youth Deserve Better Than a "Curriculum Connection"https://cica.org.au/australias-youth-deserve-better/Tyack, D. & Cuban, L. (1995) — Tinkering Toward Utopia: A Century of Public School Reform, Harvard University Presshttps://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674892835Education Council (2019) — Alice Springs (Mparntwe) Education Declarationhttps://www.education.gov.au/indigenous-education/resources/alice-springs-mparntwe-education-declarationMeadows, D. (2008) — Thinking in Systems: A Primer, Chelsea Green PublishingGet in touchFind us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at [email protected] Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

Liv and Marian have a lot to say, and One more thing! is where some of that overflow ends up. These are bonus, bite-sized pieces of conversation that don't end up making it into the final episode, but they are too good to leave on the cutting room floor. In this one: Career tests have been matching people to jobs since the 1900s. AI is just doing it faster - and taking your data. Marian and Liv dig into why schools keep reaching for career tests and inventories, and why handing a young person a set of results might not be that helpful when it comes to decision-making about the future. They also get into the AI career matching tools multiplying in the market right now, and Liv explores the idea of collective uncertainty: the particular moment we're in where nobody has a clear map, and designing education for that might mean unlearning almost everything about how we've done it before.Research and articles referenced in this episode:Laing, B. and Pennie, L. (2026) The Scaffolding Illusion: why career tests aren’t the structures students need. Whiston, S. C., Li, Y., Goodrich Mitts, N., & Wright, L. (2017). Effectiveness of career choice interventions: A meta-analytic replication and extension. Journal of Vocational Behavior, 100, 175–184. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jvb.2017.03.010 Wong ZY, Quek FYX and Yang H (2026) RIASEC self-assessment tools as career interventions: theory and effectiveness. Front. Organ. Psychol. 4:1792707. doi: 10.3389/forgp.2026.1792707Get in touchFind us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at [email protected] Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

More than half of school leavers choose a pathway to please someone else. That stat alone is worth a conversation.In this episode, Marian and Liv dig into one of the most loaded moments in a student's school life — subject selection — and ask the question that might make us a bit uncomfortable: whose decision is the career decision, really?They unpack what the research says about how schools are (often unintentionally) shaping student choices, why more information nights and expo brochures aren't as helpful as we think, and what it actually looks like when students arrive at that conversation already in the driver's seat.If you're heading into subject selection season — or just starting to think about how your school designs that process — you'll leave practical takeaways to take back to your team. Plus: the F1 job that sounds amazing until Liv and Marian  actually thought about it, and it turns out there's a growing list of 'career heck no's'.Research referenced in this episode:Gleeson, J., Walsh, L., Gallo Cordoba, B., Mikola, M., Waite, C., & Cutler, B. (2022) — Young Women Choosing Careers: Who Decides?, Monash University https://www.monash.edu/education/cypep/research/young-women-choosing-careers-who-decidesBlack, B. (2025) — Chances or Choices? The Influences on Subject Choices, University of Glasgowhttps://theses.gla.ac.uk/85338/1/2025BlackPhD.pdfBehavioural Insights Team — Moments of Choice: How Young People Make Career Decisionshttps://www.bi.team/blogs/moments-of-choice-how-young-people-make-career-decisions/OECD — The State of Global Teenage Career Preparation (PISA 2022 data) https://www.oecd.org/en/publications/the-state-of-global-teenage-career-preparation_d5f8e3f2-en/full-report/component-6.htmlAnders, J., Henderson, M., Moulton, V., & Sullivan, A. (2017) — The Role of Schools in Explaining Individuals' Subject Choices at Age 14, UCL Centre for Longitudinal Studies https://cls.ucl.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/CLS-WP-20179-The-role-of-schools-in-explaining-individuals27-subject-choices-at-age-14.pdfExploring Career Decision-Making Anxiety Among High School Students (2024), Multidisciplinary Science Journalhttps://malque.pub/ojs/index.php/msj/article/view/3157Feel free to send us your thoughts, questions, and your own answer to the question we started with today: Whose decision is it anyway? via [email protected]. Get in touchFind us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at [email protected] Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

We called the podcast The Great Careers Program. Which raises an obvious question: are we saying schools should stop buying careers programs?No. Not even close.In this short trailer, Marian and Liv address the tension head on. Yes, Liv is the co-founder and CEO of a careers program. Yes, they called the podcast the thing that doesn't exist. Here is what they actually mean by that, and why it matters for every school who cares about the futures of their students. Get in touchFind us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at [email protected] Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.

What is the great careers program? And does it actually exist? In this intro episode, Marian and Liv answer the questions you probably have before you commit to a new podcast. What is this show about, who is it for, and why are two people who come at career education from completely different angles doing it together?In this episode, they cover: What the name actually means and why it is a little bit cheeky. The argument that career education is not one person's job and never was. What a great career actually looks like — and why the answer is more personal and more complex than most schools treat it. Who should be listening (hint: not just the careers lead). Plus surprise questions for each other including what percentage of school leaders switched off the moment they saw the word careers in the title (Marian's answer: around 60%), what a great career actually is, and what they would both do if they were not doing this.Coming up in this series of The Great Careers ProgramWhose choice is it anyway? Are students really making their own decisions about their futures? AI and student futures: how do we use it for good? What is actually happening to entry level jobs? Beyond curriculum: what schools can do structurally and systemically. Future chaos: how to build hope and optimism through best practice careers education.Find usSearch The Great Careers Program on your favourite podcast app and follow so you get notified when new episodes drop. Find us on Substack for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question or a story to share? Email us at [email protected] the hostsMarian Wright is the founder of Coherence Co-Lab, working with school systems on the gap between intent and implementation. Liv Pennie is the CEO of BECOME Education, a careers education program working with schools across Australia.References and linksSir John Holman on the idea that there is 'no single bullet' in careers education. Dr Glenn Savage, Professor of Education Futures, University of Melbourne.JP Michel and The Challenge Mindset.Mike Priddis on AI and the future of work. Young women choosing careers - who decides? Jo Gleeson, Monash University.Get in touchFind us on Instagram @thegreatcareersprogram and on Substack at thegreatcareersprogram.substack.com for episode recaps, research links, and the conversation between episodes. Got a question, a story, or something you want us to talk about? Email us at [email protected] Great Careers Program is a collaboration between BECOME Education and Coherence Co-Lab, and is hosted and produced by Liv Pennie and Marian Wright, with production support from Bev Laing. Music by Chad Crouch.