The Human Work Podcast

“I felt really passionate about helping people feel strength and resilience in their own bodies, and having someone who can help them believe that those things are true in their body no matter what they’re dealing with.” While being a small business owner has its ups and downs, Sarah McNurlin (she/her) finds that it truly fills her cup, and has set up her own business — as the owner of Pinon Physical Therapy and as the creator, owner, and manager of Trolley Healing Hub, a wellness collective — so she can treat her patients exactly how they need to be treated. Her patients get all of her brain and all of her energy for the hour they are together, and she is able to meet them where they are. Her unique business model “allows humans not only to be well, but to seek prevention and maintenance and performance in a way that PT’s are highly skilled at being able to do… I am able to be fully present with each person. And it’s those connections, and that quality matters and it’s worth paying for.” Community building and supporting small businesses is also so very important to Sarah. Within this, Sarah and Charlie chat about their Regeneration Dinner, a beautiful creative way for small business owners to connect and network. Sarah speaks to “how we gather is really important. We can elevate the importance of something or the meaning that comes from something just by the environment we create, or the rituals, or the things we do to make that a different interaction than something that people have experienced before.”Both in her professional and personal life, Sarah speaks to her journey with and the importance of vulnerability in her own life. “The biggest part of vulnerability is just becoming okay with the fact that sometimes I don’t have all the answers, and sometimes I am not 100% effective at whatever I’m trying to do, and knowing that I can learn from that. And then creating an environment, where imperfections are okay… The point isn’t to be perfect. The point is how you handle those things and how you move on from those things.”Outside of work, Sarah is a mama and a partner, a gardener, and a nature lover. Sarah can be found at www.pinyonpt.com, and on Instagram @dr.sarahmcnurlin.dpt, @trolleyhealinghub, and @pinyonptResources mentioned in this episode:The Art of Gathering, by Priya ParkerThe Four Tendencies, by Gretchen RubinBrené Brown Range: Why Generalists Triumph in a Specialized World by David Epstein  This episode was recorded September 2025. 

"Create your own story, create your own narrative, and don’t let work drain you of your life’s purpose.”Jacey Thornton (she/they) is deeply rooted in her purpose to alleviate the suffering of others. At one of the darkest moments of her life, she reflected on why she should stay on this earth. This was about 20 years ago, when she was wondering why she had so much suffering in her life. "I remember reading the first Noble truth is suffering, and I just remember putting [the book] down, crying, going, that is true. That to me is what life is about. And if life is suffering and I’m suffering, I’m not broken, I’m human.”In this episode, Jacey speaks to "there were parts of work I wanted to escape, there were parts of work I wanted to embrace. I think this journey of life has helped me to really identify the need for purpose and to really make sure that I align with where I work.” Her work, whether at Project Rainbow, the Utah Trans+ Coalition, or Flourish Therapy, is all driven by this purpose. As someone who had waded, and continues to wade through trauma, Jacey wants to make sense of it. "I don't want it to be wasted, and by alleviating the suffering of others, that is how I turn my suffering into a gift." When she is tied into her purpose, she thrives.Outside of work, Jacey said she would still be going to drag shows and Pride festivals! She loves cooking, gardening and creating community gardens, skiing, being out in nature hiking and biking, and connecting with people and hosting Southern and Brazilian style barbecues. She co-parents 3 amazing kids and a golden doodle.Jacey can be found at: www.projectrainbowutah.orgprojectrainbowutah at LinkedIn, Facebook and Instagram.Email: [email protected] or [email protected] mentioned in this episode:Start With Why, by Simon SinekMan’s Search For Meaning, by Viktor FranklFacing the Shadow, by Patrick CarnesUntamed, by Glennon DoyleBrené BrownBe Here Now, by Ram DassThe Four Noble Truths: The Foundation of Buddhist Thought, by Geshe Tashi TseringThis episode was recorded in August 2025. *This episode contains content related to trauma and suicide. If you, or someone you know, is in crisis, please connect with the supportive folks at 988*

Caro Nilsson (she/her) was born in Vancouver, Washington and haws spent her entire life building relationships with the land in America's endlessly variable biomes, and translating those feelings and findings into paintings. She holds a B.A. in Fine Arts with a Distinguished Major in Printmaking, and a B.S. in Architecture from the University of Virginia. Caro completed her first solo painting residency at the Dacha in Mystic, CT in the Spring of 2021, and currently lives as a multi-media painter and muralist, painting full time from Salt Lake City.When asked about her purpose, Caro beautifully explained, "My purpose, the reason I exist in the world, is to present the doorways to be in and with the magic of everything. It feels so potent to me and maybe sounds a little bit difficult to understand what that means, but to me, a doorway is like a moment of actual noticing. We go through our days so often distracted, and making lists and thinking about all the things that are happening — not exactly where we are, but that will happen later or that happened earlier — and everywhere, always, all the time, magic is happening. And the difference is opening your eyeballs and noticing."When not working, Caro enjoys tending to her relationship with the land and with her community, mostly.Caro can be found at carozobservations.com (or google "Caro Nilsson art") and @caroznilsson on instagram.Resources mentioned in this episode:Groundwork with Human|WorkMake Art Not Content, a podcast by Father BronquesThe Creative Act: A Way of Being, by Rick RubinSaving Time: Discovering a Life Beyond the Clock, by Jenny O’Dell4000 weeks: Time Management For Mortals, by Oliver Burkemanplease always support your local bookstores and businesses. This episode was recorded in January 2025.

Andrew Jylkka (he/him) is the former owner and baker of Southeast Dough Company, in Sitka, Alaska. Andrew shut down his business in October, and talks about the process of grappling with a new way of working and understanding himself separate from his work. "I still want [my work] to be fulfilling. I still want my work to align with my values, but I don’t want my work to define my values... That’s something that you [Charlie] might have started to plant the seed for way back in '22, because we did the whole values exercise. And you’re like, well, what are your values and how are you expressing those through your business versus what are your business values? And those are different things. They should be different entities.“Throughout this conversation, something deeply resonates in what Andrew takes from chapter to chapter of his life: “All of that exploration leads me to be a more complete human and having a better understanding myself so that I can make stronger choices for my future. That’s all we can do is make stronger choices. Like, nothing is guaranteed. We don’t know what is around the corner. But the more I know myself, the more sure I am that a choice I will make will move me down the path that expresses my values to the strongest degree."When he is not creating community through bread, Andrew can be found hiking, foraging, hunting, diving, cooking, reading, and participating in circus arts.Andrew can be found @sedoughco on both Facebook and Instagram, yet please know while he is no longer posting, one can see what he has done and also he can still get messages if anyone has questions for him.resources :Human|WorkThis episode was recorded in February 2025.

Leif Ariel (she/her) is an energy healer and energetic mentor who works with humans (and more recently, therapists/care practitioners) who feel bled dry from a life lived isolated up in their minds. She guides humans who are stuck in habitual ways of being into deep curiosity with themselves and the possibility of a greater reality. Together with her clients, Leif leads in the exploration of the wide range of human experience: emotional, somatic, energetic, ceremonial, imaginal so they can reenter the vital and passionate stream of life. In this conversation, Leif speaks to her experience within her own work as, "If you’re going to be an energy healer, you will inevitably live in the imaginal realm, much of the time and believe in the imaginal realm of your clients. And not the imaginary realm, … but the true ‘make reality of the imaginal’, and that means holding the vision for yourself and being able to actually say, if I could create this, what would it look like?"Outside of work, Leif loves to trail-run like a dog, bouncing and playing over the rocks. She also, always, practices what she teaches — she engages with herself in that full range of the human experience. She especially loves to find healing and surprises in the imaginal and dream worlds. Leif can be found at mothertonguehealing.com, as well as here as a Human|Work mentor. Resources:an intentional commitment to sit with yourself in the morningBarbara Brennon School of HealingRobert MossThis episode was recorded in March 2025.

“Never stop following your dreams and never let anyone tell you that you can’t do something, even yourself.”This is the advice Joshua Lucero (he/him) would give to his younger self.Joshua is the owner of Lucero Hair and Wellness in Salt Lake City, Utah, and of Lucero Hair Care. He has been doing hair since 2013 and has truly cultivated a passion for his craft. He got into the industry to find a better life for himself, and being able to give inclusive and creative services to people is one of his life goals.In this episode, Joshua reflects: “When I started my career, I started in hair school. I was a student. I’ve learned to become a barber. I’ve learned to become a stylist. I’ve learned to become a therapist. Now I’m in the role of business owner. I’m leading and trying to teach other folks how I do that I’m doing. I think choosing the identity of entrepreneur, business owner… I think that we think it’s going to be all fun, and we realize, of shit, this is hard.”When he is not at the shop, Joshua loves to travel the world, to read books (see below a list of some that have influenced him as a business owner and human), to play with his dogs, and enjoys time with his husband.Joshua plans to continue his dream of creating safe spaces for LGBTQIA+ and BIPOC communities by offering education and events for these marginalized communities.Joshua can be found at www.lucerohairandwellness.com & @lucerohair_andwellness on Instagram.Resources:Travel, first and foremost. Get out there and see the world.Shoe Dog, by Phil KnightLet Them Theory, by Mel RobbinsThe Untethered Soul, by Michael SingerUnreasonable Hospitality, by Will GuidaraRadical Candor, Kim ScottPlease always support your local bookstores and businesses.This episode was recorded in February 2025.

Jean Madison Reiser is a career and life coach, the Founder of Whole Human Co. and a Human|Work mentor working at the intersection of work and life. She is Clifton Strengths Certified and supports leaders, entrepreneurs, and teams in optimizing their work in alignment to their strengths.Jean shares her story of why she became a coach, why she works with Strengths, and her journey of burnout working in corporate, non–profit, and startups.Jean is also a mom to Human Work's favorite one–year old, a yoga practitioner and teacher, and likes to spend her time exploring the National Parks with her family.Jean can be found at Whole Human Co. (https://thewholehumanco.com/) on instagram @whole.humanco on LinkedIn (https://www.linkedin.com/company/whole-human-co/) and here on Human|Work as a mentor.

Hello and welcome back to Human | Work Stories where we are telling the stories of working humans doing human work. I’m your host Charlie Warner.Today we will be sharing the human work story of Alyson La. Alyson is a data educator, technology career facilitator, mom, partner, explorer, and just a very lovely human to get to know.Alyson got her career start in Silicon Valley working in the accounting department for GitHub. She then rose in the ranks exploring how to apply her skills in accounting to building data analytics dashboards. This led her on a wild journey through GitHub’s rise in the tech world and ultimately landed her at TechMoms, an education startup focused on upskilling moms and women in the tech world. Alyson shares about her love for data, analytics, the world of tech, and why teaching is so fulfilling for her now.You can find Alyson at TechMoms at https://www.tech-moms.org/ and on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/alysonla/

Charlie (she/they) is an entrepreneur, professor, speaker, and purpose–driven leader who loves exploring our human relationships with work. She is the founder of Human|Work, a professional education platform and mentor network on a mission to "humanize the nature of work."Charlie specializes in strategic alignment and loves working with purpose–driven humans in aligning to work that works for them. She has her MBA and teaches strategy and leadership as an Adjunct Professor at Westminster University.In October 2024, Charlie was on the TEDxSaltLakeCity stage sharing about how natural ecosystems can inspire more resilient, sustainable, and abundant businesses and workplace cultures. More information about Charlie and her work can be found at charliemwarner.com and humanworkproject.com. 

Felina Danalis works in human and organizational resiliency as a Somatic Experiencing Practitioner, coach, and facilitator. She’s supported hundreds of humans in incorporating resiliency to stress and trauma into their lives and organizations. She’s worked as a international diplomat, coached trauma professionals, and facilitated retreats for companies like Google, Planned Parenthood, and more.Felina’s background is diverse and truly expresses and embodies what human resiliency is. She’s work in war zones and also studied Buddhist meditation. These days, Felina offers 1:1 and group coaching around how to incorporate resiliency into their own lives, work, relationship with money, and communities to create more meaningful impact in the world. When not working, Felina enjoys hiking and sharing her love for her Greek background through food. Felina shares her story of her work, why she does it, and explores how our relationship with money impacts our nervous system guiding us in how to bring more resiliency into our abundance.Felina can be found at https://www.felinadanalis.com/ and here on Human|Work.We interviewed Felina about her adventures in work in October 2024.

Sabi Habib–Lowder is a social media strategist, storyteller, film producer, and oh so much more. She is the visionary behind Critical Socials, whose mission is to uplift small brands to create meaningful impact through authentic connections. Drawing from experience in documentary film, copywriting, and community organizing, Sabi excels in devising captivating content strategies. With a B.S. in Communication & Cultural Studies from Westminster University, Sabi is committed to empowering brands to share their narratives effectively online, igniting inspiration and motivation among audiencesSabi tells her story of her work, why she does what she does, and how she supports business clients in telling their stories and connecting with their audiences. She speaks to why expressing a brand authentically, as what she calls an online friend. Sabi’s story is fascinating on so many levels and is particularly helpful for small business owners, entrepreneurs, and folks hoping to tell their stories. Sabi can be found at criticalsocials.com. We interviewed Sabi about her adventures in work in July of 2024. 

On this week's weekly wander, Charlie and Jean Madison wander about "composting" or the intentional reflection and letting go of certain processes, practices, and work during the autumn season. 

Kasey Ring is a personal financial coach who works to empower women in their stories of money. As a former personal banker, Kasey worked with high net–worth individuals to manage and grow their wealth. However, while she enjoyed this work, she felt that she wanted to make a bigger impact and help educate her clients on how to build wealth, not necessarily grow it further. Kasey started Upward Personal Finance to do just that, specifically for women. “I help women really be confident and in control of their money.” Kasey works with clients to rewrite their story with money, align with their values, and implement a practice for improving their financial situation. Outside of her work, Kasey enjoys her time with her family and friends exploring the nature of Utah. You can find more about Kasey on her website at upwardpf.com. We interviewed Kasey about her adventures in work in Summer, 2023. 

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean explore the importance of working with our strengths (instead of a constant improvement of weaknesses) and how to embrace what we are already good at in our human–work experience. 

Elizabeth Rosenbloom is a geospatial analyst and designer, aka cartographer, who works to help others and herself make sense of the world. She has worked with a wide–range of clients in both public (governmental) and private sectors, designing specialized maps, analyzing patterns within the maps and related data, and making products and web interfaces to communicate the results. She currently runs her own business, Rosen Co., “creating actionable visual assets for mission-driven companies.” Outside of work, she’s generally outside riding a bicycle, open water swimming, or exploring the far corners of the globe. You can find more about Elizabeth on her website at Rosendesign.co, on LinkedIn, or on Medium where she writes about design, technology, and the fundamentals of freelancing. We interviewed Elizabeth about her adventures in work in Summer, 2023. 

On this week's Weekly Wander, and wander about enriching our work experiences on a micro and a macro level. We discuss how enrichment is a practice that can be both incremental, like a “sprinkling”, and a transformative one. We share specific practices for enriching our own experiences of work and for enriching the work experiences of those we work with. Join us in humanizing the nature of work at humanworkproject.com. 

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Gretchen wander about how to utilize the practices of permaculture mapping to improve the sustainability of our work. We explore how the mapping process can bring more resiliency, efficiency, and intentionality to the processes and systems of our work and our lives.

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Grae wander about the nature of work: our internal human nature, the natural contexts and influences on our experience of work, and how nature can model solutions to many of our modern–day challenges. 

Britt and Kass Thomas are artists, community builders, entrepreneurs, and the power couple behind Rekindled & Co.—a tattoo parlor and barber shop in Salt Lake City, UT. In their work, they gracefully navigate the experience of being entrepreneurs who seek to share their crafts while growing a business. As humans, they generously hold space for their clients to express themselves and connect in community. You can find Britt & Kass at Rekindled & Co. by stopping in at the shop 3223 E. 3300 S. in Millcreek UT. on Insta @rekindled_co or online www.rekindledandco.com. You can see more of Britt’s work @britts_ink and Kass’ @kass_the_barber. When not working likely adventuring outside, traveling, or enjoying beers with friends. We interviewed Britt & Kass about their adventures in work in June, 2023. 

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean explore wholeness versus hollowness in work—in the work we do and in the organizations we do work in. We explore cultivating our own sense of wholeness in work, discuss the importance of integrity, and wander about how leaders can nurture a sense of wholeness in their teams.

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean continue our conversation about trust, wandering deep into the realm of self–trust. We explore how to develop self–trust, how to dance between internal and external trust, and how to cultivate trust as leaders. 

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean explore trust in work—trust in ourselves, trust in our process, and trust in others. We discuss what it feels like to be in trusting alignment and how to create practices for building trust. 

On this Week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean wander about the human experience of entreprenurship. We discuss our own journeys in self–employment and the humility that comes with being self–employed. 

On this Week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean wander about how to accommodate the very human experience of having "a case of the Mondays." 

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie Warner and Jean Madison Reiser explore examples of humanized work vs when work is dehumanizing. We discuss quiet hiring (aka scope creep) and how to balance a desire to create impact and do meaningful work with the constraints of our modern economy. 

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie Warner and Sarah Berry Carpenter discuss what it means to humanize the nature of work and Charlie's vision for Human | Work Project. 

On this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie, Sarah, and Rachelle wander about community and what it means to belong, particularly at work. As leaders, how can we create containers of belonging in ourselves and for others. 

Bryce Riley is the Associate Social Media Manager for EA Action Adventure, working on titles like Dragon Age, Mass Effect, WILD HEARTS, and Immortals of Aveum. Before EA, Bryce ran social media accounts for companies like Activision-Blizzard and MGM Resorts International. He has his master's degree in Rhetoric, Writing, and Digital Media Studies, which is basically how we communicate online and how we can do it better.  Bryce loves working in social because "I love making stuff - videos, photos, and sometimes other bonkers content that we somehow fit on social platforms. And social media is the place to be if you want to get real-time feedback on your work and reach a huge audience. It's just really fun to see people stoked about the game you're working on!" Outside of work Bryce plays lots of video games, snowboards, and loves exploring new restaurants.  We interviewed Bryce in May 2023 about his work in content creation, social media, and gaming.

Charlie and Jean discuss the value of core values and how to use them to guide you through your life, leadership, and decisions. 

In this week's Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean explore shared feelings of whiplash, burnout, and how to lead ourselves and our teams when the world seems to be falling apart.

On this Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean wander about procrastination and how we might reframe it from a weakness to a strength. 

In this Weekly Wander, Charlie, Jean and Sarah discuss our upcoming Humanizing Money Mastermind, our personal relationships to money, and how we intend to support folks in humanizing their own relationships to money. 

*This story discusses mental health issues and treatment including suicidality. It's not to be assumed or used as advice and may not be appropriate for certain audiences.* Morgan Starr-Riestis is a therapist and the founder of MindPsy Guidance and the Seven Centers Life School. She offers 1:1 therapy and holistic counseling and coaching services to help clients find balance, purpose, and fulfillment in life. Through her work, She strives to help fill in some of the shortcomings of traditional 1:1 therapy and believes it's important to continue the evolution of our healing to include the mind, nervous system, body, and spirit. Morgan has bachelor's degrees in Cognitive Neuroscience, Wellness, and Human Biology and got her master's degree in Clinical Mental Health with an emphasis in Somatic Therapies. In her private practice, she uses evidence-based modalities such as Internal Family Systems (IFS), Somatic & Attachment-based EMDR, Narrative Therapy, Somatic Therapy, Dance/Movement Therapy, and more. She is also a Psychedelic-Assisted Therapy Provider (PATP), and will eventually be offering these services. Within her coaching practice, she utilizes the chakra system as a map to holistic wellness which helps to go beyond the limitations of traditional Westernized Psychological healing modalities. We interviewed Morgan about her adventure in work in early April, 2023. 

Dr. Leandra H. Hernandez (Ph.D., Texas A&M University; she/her/ella) is an assistant professor in the Department of Communication at Utah Valley University. She is also the Associate Academic Director of the UVU Center for Social Impact and the UVU DEI Fellow for Faculty Outreach.  She enjoys teaching journalism, health communication, gender studies, and media studies courses. She is on the Board of Directors for the Salt Lake Climbers Alliance and is a co-organizer for the Salt Lake Area Queer Climbers (SLAQC) organization. We spoke with Lea in March of 2023 about her journey in work. 

In this Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean get really honest about their capacity to work today. Spoiler alert: it's between 20-40% for both of them. From this, they explore strategies, contexts, and resources for working to capacity instead of working beyond it and burning out.

In this Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean explore the contexts of work versus job versus career and how generational differences have shaped our relationship with each. 

Seth is a passionate and compassionate leader, currently working as VP Enterprise Product and Strategic Partnerships at CarbonClick. Carbon Click is a platform that helps business take business climate action and engage their customers to take climate action through carbon offsetting. Prior to CarbonClick he spent 20 years as a Product Manager developing products for low cost airlines around the world. We spoke with Seth in March of 2023 about his adventure in work.

In this Weekly Wander, Charlie, Jean, and Dani explore curiosity in work, our relationship to it, and how curiosity is an essential aspect to our humanity. We wander about the distinction between curiosity and questions, how to create containers for curiosity in the workplace, and how a curious strategy could lead you to where you need to go. 

In this first Weekly Wander, Charlie and Jean explore what work is, the evolution of our relationship to it, and what we wish was more culturally acceptable in work.  

Gretchen "Grae" (she/they) declared her life purpose early on in life (6 years old); “I will work with the nature in people!” She does just that as a guide in Rites of Passage, wilderness therapy, and as an expression of self.Grae runs her own business, Naetura Cara (@Naeturacara) offering 1-1 sessions, group facilitation, and trainings in Rites of Passage and Ceremony "but the true essence of my work happens in person, immersed in nature." She frequently travels between Utah, Montana, Idaho, California, Alaska, and the PNW for work and is a guide for The School of Lost Borders and Rite of Passage Journeys. We interviewed Grae in early February 2023 about her experience in her work with the nature in people.

Lisa Bell is a CPA and bookkeeping coach on a mission to make small business accounting simple, approachable, easy, and maybe even a little fun.  Lisa started her own business providing monthly bookkeeping and tax services in March of 2022 after spending 10 long years in the public accounting grind. "My last year in public accounting really taught me that I'm driven by human connection. I couldn't handle the once a year tax preparation anymore so I created a business where I could work with my clients more often. This allows us to be more proactive in terms of their cash and taxes." She works with small business owners in different industries ranging from Fortnite streamers to attorneys and is currently launching a bookkeeping coaching program. "I know the businesses with the smallest margins and profits are the ones who need the most assistance, but can't afford it."In both lines of services, her goal is to teach business owners how to assess the financial health of their business and equip them to become their own financial experts.When she's not working her CPA magic she's likely traveling, hanging out with family, and spending time outside when the weather is nice.You can find Lisa at www.copilotcpa.com or on Instagram @accountingbylisaWe interviewed Lisa in mid January 2023 about her experience in humanizing the nature of accounting.