The Innovation Civilization Podcast

We're joined by Professor Jacopo Buongiorno, Professor of Nuclear Science and Engineering at MIT, Director of the Center for Advanced Nuclear Energy Systems, and Director of Science and Technology at the MIT Nuclear Reactor Laboratory. His research spans reactor safety, advanced nuclear systems, small modular reactors, microreactors, and the future of nuclear energy in a carbon-constrained world.Jacopo’s central argument is clear and balanced: nuclear is not the answer to every energy problem, but it is very likely part of any serious solution. It is low-carbon, extremely reliable, incredibly energy dense, and physically compact. But the challenge is no longer whether nuclear works. The challenge is whether the West still remembers how to build it — on time, on budget, and at scale.Timestamps:(00:30) – Is nuclear the answer to clean, abundant energy?(01:30) – Nuclear as low-carbon, reliable, and long-lasting power(02:00) – Energy density, uranium, and why nuclear needs so little fuel(03:20) – Why nuclear did not scale more after the 1970s(04:00) – France, South Korea, Sweden, Switzerland, and nuclear-heavy grids(05:30) – The 1970s energy crisis and the original rush to build nuclear plants(08:00) – Why today’s challenge is construction, not policy(08:30) – Gen I, Gen II, Gen III, Gen IV reactors explained(10:00) – How traditional nuclear plants are built on construction sites(10:40) – Modular construction and the promise of factory-built nuclear(12:40) – TerraPower, Bill Gates, and the reality of nuclear startups(13:20) – Why the West developed a negative learning curve in nuclear construction(14:00) – Why Western countries struggle to build big infrastructure(15:00) – How China, Korea, Russia, and India kept their nuclear construction muscle(16:20) – The unit economics of nuclear power(17:00) – Levelised cost of electricity and why construction dominates nuclear cost(18:00) – Why nuclear plants are expensive upfront but valuable for decades(19:20) – How AI data centres could transform nuclear economics(20:00) – Why data centres need clean, reliable, 24/7 electricity(21:00) – Power purchase agreements and long-term nuclear financing(22:20) – Should governments subsidise or lead nuclear infrastructure?(23:00) – Why laissez-faire markets tend to choose gas(24:00) – Why government planning matters for decarbonisation and energy security(26:00) – What policymakers need to understand about nuclear workforce training(28:00) – Why China’s construction experience gives it a major advantage(28:40) – China’s nuclear dominance and future export power(29:30) – Russia’s nuclear exports to Bangladesh, Egypt, Turkey, and others(30:30) – Civilian nuclear power and the risk of weapons proliferation(31:30) – The IAEA, Non-Proliferation Treaty, inspections, and safeguards(32:20) – Fuel take-back agreements and reducing proliferation risk(33:20) – Is nuclear actually safe?(35:00) – Floating nuclear reactors and why Jacopo likes the concept(37:20) – Where nuclear could see 10x improvements(39:00) – Why lowering the cost of capital could transform nuclear economics(39:40) – When are we getting nuclear fusion?(40:30) – Nuclear in 10–15 years: growth, decline, or stagnation?(41:00) – Why nuclear will grow in East Asia, the Middle East, and Eastern Europe(41:50) – Why the U.S. and Western Europe may struggle to build new reactors(42:30) – Final reflections on nuclear as part of a clean, abundant energy future

We're joined by David E. Spiro, political scientist and author of The Hidden Hand of American Hegemony: Petrodollar Recycling and International Markets.The book, published by Cornell University Press, challenged the standard story that petrodollar recycling in the 1970s was simply a market-driven process and instead showed the deeper political role of American power in shaping where oil surpluses went.David’s central argument is that the dollar system has always been about more than economics. It is about trust, coercion, liquidity, state power, and the ability of the United States to shape global outcomes through the plumbing of finance. In the 1970s, oil exporters accumulated massive dollar surpluses after OPEC price shocks. Much of that capital flowed into U.S. government obligations and the Western banking system, helping finance trade deficits and reshape global debt markets. But today, the same system that once amplified American power may be starting to reveal its fragility.We dive into:• What petrodollar recycling actually means — and why the common story is incomplete• How the 1970s oil shocks reshaped global finance• Why oil being priced in dollars matters so much for American power• Whether dedollarisation is real or exaggerated• How SWIFT, sanctions, and dollar clearing became tools of geopolitical pressure• Why gold is returning as a reserve asset• Why Bitcoin and stablecoins may not challenge the dollar as much as people think• How U.S. tariff policy and political instability are weakening trust in the dollar system• Whether the American-led rules-based order is now breaking down• Why China may be the biggest beneficiary of American self-sabotage• The real limits of bringing manufacturing back to America• Why rare earths, chips, and supply chains are more complicated than the headlines suggest• Why the future may belong to societies that protect education, institutions, trust, and human thinking