The Joys of Binge Reading

Alyssa Maxwell is the author of the acclaimed Gilded Age, Newport mystery series featuring Emmaline Cross. She’s a Vanderbilt by heritage, a Newporter by birth and a force to be reckoned with. Each book is set in a famous Newport Gilded Age mansion, some of them still open for viewing. Welcome to the Joys of Binge Reading, the show for anyone who ever got to the end of a great book and wanted to read the next instalment. We interview successful series authors and recommend the best in mystery, suspense, historical and romance series, so you’ll never be without a book you can’t foot down. You’ll find this episode’s show notes, a free ebook, and lots more information at the joys of binge reading.com. And now here’s our show. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and in the last Binge Reading episode for a while, we talk to Alyssa about her fascination for historical mysteries, resulting in the widely praised, 12 books series, with Book #1, Murder At The Breakers. premiering as a Hallmark movie earlier this year. We’re going to be talking about the latest book om the series today, Murder at Vinand. Emma must stop a bold poisoner who was targeting the society wives of the 400 in Gilded Age Newport, Rhode Island. As I’ve announced a few posts ago, this is going to be the last episode of The Joys of Binge Reading podcast for a while. We’re taking a break, maybe permanently, after 300 episodes, but you can always catch up on your favorite authors in the published shows, which are currently being posted to YouTube as well. Our Book Giveaway Our free book giveaway for this episode is Sadie’s Vow, the first book in my Home At Last mystery series, set in Gilded Age San Francisco. You’ll find the links to download in the show notes for this episode on the website, the joys of binge reading.com. SADIE’S VOW – FREE BOOK HERE’S THE LINK IF THE BUTTON DOESN’T WORK… https://dl.bookfunnel.com/rg3g2284e7 As I say, this is the last show for me for a while. I want to use my time to write more books. I’ve loved the time that I’ve spent talking to and researching the authors that I’ve featured on the show. Many of them, I love to still read the books, but it is just now time for a change. Links to things mentioned in the show Gilded Age: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_Age Cornelius Vanderbilt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Vanderbilt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Vanderbilt_II Consuelo Vanderbilt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consuelo_Vanderbilt Consuelo Second Husband: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Balsan Alva Vanderbilt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacques_Balsan Nellie Bly: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nellie_Bly Sleuths In Time:  https://www.facebook.com/SleuthsInTime/ Newport: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newport,_Rhode_Island Saratoga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saratoga_Springs,_New_York Newport Preservation Society: https://www.newportmansions.org/ The Breakers: https://www.newportmansions.org/mansions-and-gardens/the-breakers/ A Lady and Lady’s Maid mysteries: https://www.alyssamaxwell.com/ladys-maid-books Arleigh House: https://househistree.com/houses/arleigh Where to find Alyssa Maxwell online Website: alyssamaxwell.com Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/alyssa.maxwell.750 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/alyssamaxwellauthor/ Introducing historical mystery author Alyssa Maxwell Alyssa Maxwell: Gilded Newport mysteries Now it’s time for Alyssa. Jenny Wheeler: Hello there, Alyssa, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Alyssa Maxwell: Thank you, Jenny, for having me on. Jenny Wheeler: Your Gilded Newport Mysteries have attracted great reviews, and you’ve also got the first book in the series now as a Hallmark movie. Congratulations on that. Tell us firstly, why did you find the Gilded Age a fascinating period to write about and what do you think its attraction is for readers? Alyssa Maxwell: For me, the fact that’s what Newport is most known for. Newport, Rhode Island is probably the biggest collection of Gilded Age mansions to be found anywhere, especially in such close proximity to each. Other. You could basically walk from one to the next as you’re going down Bellevue Avenue in Newport. My husband’s from Newport, so I knew I wanted to set my series there, and I went with the Gilded Age because it is the most recognizable and famous thing about the city. Jenny Wheeler: What is it that attracted the rich people to Newport? It became the summertime playground of the rich, didn’t it? Alyssa Maxwell: They had been going to Saratoga for a couple of decades, I think, but Saratoga began to get old. They were getting bored with it. It was attracting what they considered a lesser crowd, so they needed a new place to go. Now Newport had been the summer playground of wealthy Southerners before the Civil War, so it already had a reputation as a summer resort kind of town. Saratoga Springs is out, Newport is in I guess they decided, Saratoga’s out, let’s go explore Newport. And they did. And decided this was where they were gonna build not only their houses, but their summer society. It was very much a society going on there. It had its own rules and its own etiquette, much as New York did the rest of the year. Jenny Wheeler: I’m just interested in your comment about it being a playground for Southerners before the Civil War. After the Civil War, did that sort of rich southern society fade out a bit? Alyssa Maxwell: Oh yeah. As soon as the war started, of course, they stopped coming. They had to stop coming, and after the war the money was gone for the vast majority of them. That was no longer an option. The thing is, they didn’t tend to build mansions. they built smaller houses or they stayed in hotels because for them, the whole pastoral setting of the New England coastline was the attraction. They were very outdoorsy. They didn’t have balls so much as, I think picnics, and outdoor kind of activities. It’s a simpler lifestyle. Jenny Wheeler: Your key investigator, Emma Cross, is remotely related to the Vanderbilt family. Now, the Vanderbilts, they’re an extremely well-known name in American history. Tell us a bit about that family and her relationship to them. The famed Vanderbilt family Alyssa Maxwell: The family, of course, or the main part of it, was started with the first Cornelius Vanderbilt, who they called the Commodore. He started off in local shipping. And built that up into a railroad industry, little by little. Emma would be his, I believe, great granddaughter. So, it’s a few generations removed. And the reason she’s not a rich Vanderbilt is because she descends from one of the Commodore’s daughters. He was a curmudgeon and he didn’t believe in leaving his daughters the vast fortunes that, he left his son William. By the time Emma’s generation comes along, most of it’s depleted, and what little money she has, she earns by working as a reporter. But also she inherited a small annuity from a great aunt on her mother’s side of the family. So she is not living off the Vanderbilt wealth except for her contemporary relatives. They have welcomed her into their lives when they’re in Newport and they do help her from time to time. They’re not gonna let her starve. They insisted on installing a telephone in her house so that she wouldn’t be so isolated out there in the Ocean Drive. She has a nice relationship with them, but she doesn’t like to be beholden to them. Following in the footsteps of Nellie Bly Jenny Wheeler: Now, as you mentioned, she is a newspaper reporter, which would be a very unusual thing in that period, particularly for a woman of her social status. But you do have a bit of a model for her, don’t you, in the real life person of Nellie Bly. Tell us a bit about that and how you came to, to feel that it was okay to make her a newspaper reporter. Alyssa Maxwell: Actually in the beginning of the series, she’s the society columnist for a local paper. So that was actually something women could do at the time. They could write about the balls and the fashions and who took what vacation or who’s gonna marry whom. That was okay. That was considered, women’s interests. Of course she wants more. She wants to be a real news reporter. And that’s where I got the inspiration from Nelly Bly, who was a Gilded Age reporter and did things. She broke a lot of rules to get her story. She took a lot of risks and that is my inspiration. Nelly was unusual. There weren’t a lot of women doing that, but she proved to a lot of readers that a woman could get a story and write well about it. This is where I modeled Emma, to a large extent. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. It’s wonderful in a sense that each of the books features one of those historic houses, the amazing houses they built. Many of them still standing and able to be visited today. Tell us about that. Murder at Vinland, the latest book. Are you still able to go to Vinland, for example? Murder in Vinland Alyssa Maxwell: Only if you’re a college student. Vinland and Wakehurst and Ochre Court, each of those have been books in my series. They are all part of Salve Regina University. They’re not open for tours to the public, but the students use them. They’re administrative offices, offices their classrooms. They’re very functional. They’re still used today. Other houses like the Breakers’ Marble House, and  The Elms, these are all part of the Preservation Society of Newport Counties. Properties that they maintain as museums, so people can go in and out and, see all these things that I’m writing about, and I get to go in them and do my research even more importantly. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. We mentioned at the beginning about one of the books being a Hallmark movie, and that was book one in the series, Murder at the Breakers. That was a movie that featured Cornelius Vanderbilt, the original Vanderbilt’s grandson, as part of the story. Is that still showing on Hallmark? Could people still see it? Alyssa Maxwell: It comes and it goes. It repeated a few times in February and I think in March. I don’t know what their schedule is. They don’t tell me, but I would assume it’ll be on again eventually. These are movies, so they’re not like regular television shows that are on every week like a series that you’d sit down and watch every week. They pop up, they go away for a while, others come and go? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Were you very involved in it at all? Alyssa Maxwell: No, not at all. No. My creative input was writing the book. And then they took it from there. I wasn’t consulted about anything. Jenny Wheeler: And are you happy with the result? Alyssa Maxwell: I’m happy. There’s always gonna be things that I wish either they had done differently or things that they had included. It’s my book and I wrote it all and it’s all important to me, but you can’t fit everything in a book, in an hour and a half. It is just not possible. And I think that’s why they don’t consult with writers. I think it’s because they know that for us, we’re too involved in it. We are gonna want all those things included that can’t be. Jenny Wheeler: Sure. Book Two, Murder at Marble House features another fascinating real life figure, and that’s Consuelo Vanderbilt. She’s got an amazingly sad story as an absolutely beautiful, rich girl who her mother Alice, almost sold off to an English Duke. Her mother wanted the status of having a Duke in the family, and the Duke needed the Vanderbilt money, but it was a rather ill-fated pairing, wasn’t it. Tell us a bit about that. Alva Vanderbilt – the ultimate pushy mother Alyssa Maxwell: It was. Alva Vanderbilt was her mother. Alva was a very ambitious woman. I really think that so many of the Gilded Age women were highly intelligent, assertive, and aggressive in a way that today would’ve allowed them to be CEOs and lawyers and, any other kind of career you might think of. But then they couldn’t, and so they had to channel their talents and abilities and all of that into domestic affairs, which had to have been incredibly frustrating. But, there it was. One of Alva’s outlets was to arrange a glorious marriage for her daughter. Now, Consuelo, at the time of the engagement, was already in love with another man, an American, and she planned to marry him. They had an understanding. Alva would have none of it. She even went so far as to practically lock Consuelo in her room at Marble House while they awaited the Duke’s arrival from England so that they could make it official and get them engaged. They really had nothing in common. He was coming for her money. They say she went down the aisle with tears in her eyes. I don’t know if that’s true. It may have been it probably was true. Unfortunately, immediately in the marriage they knew it wasn’t gonna work, so she, birthed the “heir and the spare,” and after that they pretty much lived separate lives. She made the most of her time over there as a Duchess. She was very involved in charity work. She had a little home of her own near, I think it was just outside of London, where she would entertain artists and poets and writers and those kind of people. She enjoyed that. And, by the time of World War I she was no longer having anything to do with her husband. He was in love with somebody else. And after the war, she met her second husband, a Frenchman Jacques Balsan. They married and were happy. So she did finally have the life she wanted and she reunited and, made up with her mother and they were able to have a good relationship for the rest of Alva’s life. It took a while to get to happy ending Jenny Wheeler: Oh that’s great. Alyssa Maxwell: Yes. There was a happy ending, but it took a while to get there. Jenny Wheeler: Over the course of the series. Emma herself has two significant romantic attachments in her life. Without giving too much away, for those who haven’t started reading the series yet, explain a bit about her romantic dilemmas and what she has to make a choice between. Alyssa Maxwell: I know a lot of people groan when they hear romantic triangles, but Emma’s life is a triangle in a way. She’s Vanderbilt. She is just an ordinary Newporter. She’s a working woman. And so these men that come into her life, one is an ordinary Newporter, he’s a police detective. The other one is a wealthy. He’s an heir to a newspaper empire. They represent those two sides of her life, and which side is she gonna go with? I t would be easier to go with a detective because this is more the life she lives for most of the year. But the rich guy, she has to admit, ignites her passions more. But then on the other hand, there’s that third angle of her maybe just wanting to remain an unmarried, independent woman, because in those days, a married woman had to give up a lot of her autonomy, her independence. So it’s all a dilemma for her, Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. You have another mystery series that I’d like to mention, and that’s called The Ladies and Ladies Maid Series, and it’s set in England post-World War II. It’s been described as ‘for Downton Abbey fans’ because it’s dealing with that period when the aristocracy in England was facing a huge amount of social change. Tell us about that series. I guess that was the first series you wrote, was it? How did you get started in your writing? Downton Abbey with a mystery twist Alyssa Maxwell: The Newport mysteries did come first, and then I got into I the second series. I had already written the first two or three of the Newport series,  I think, when my editor came up with the idea of a Downton Abbey series with a mystery twist. I’m a huge fan. In fact, I’m be watching them again now. I haven’t seen them in a little while, so I thought it was time. I chose that time period. I could have said it anywhere after the turn of the 19th century, early 20th century. But I picked that. I didn’t wanna get bogged down in the war. I thought that would take over so much of the narrative. It was so complicated, so much and the tragedy and all of that, but the years immediately following were also very complicated because the war did away with so much of the class values. They weren’t gone. The classes, were still very much there, but the edges were blurred between, the poor, the middle class, and the wealthy, because when the men went off to war, they were fighting side by side and they depended on each other. And so did the women. The women were home, were raising money and gathering supplies and rolling bandages. And again, they worked side by side, the wealthy and the, the poor. Everybody had to pitch in. And when the men came home …. well so many of them, so many of them did not come home. So many were maimed. That they said a whole generation of men were lost and a whole generation of women might not ever find husbands. The women left behind had to work. They began working during the war because they had to fill in the labor gap and when the men came home, suddenly women were expected to stay home and make babies, but there weren’t the husbands available to do that with. Women had to fight to keep those jobs in the workplace. It was a very complicated and a very flux time. Things were very much changing. And Downton Abbey goes into that quite a bit in the Post-War years. I just, I find that interesting. During the war, everybody knew what their role was. There was a job you had to do and you did it. But after the war, it was confusing. What do I do? Do I have a job? Do I talk to this man who’s wealthier than I am or can I not? It was very confusing and I find that fascinating. An ‘Old school’ approach to research Alyssa Maxwell: Yes, that’s a tricky one, because it’s such a delicate balance. I think since I’m writing mysteries, I always know in the forefront of my mind that the mystery has to take precedence over everything else because if it’s not a a good mystery, the rest of it isn’t gonna matter. I always start when I begin a series with a stack of books. It’s old school. I go to the library, I go to the used book networks online, and I hunt and I look for interesting things. I love newspapers or something I just love to research with. I have one of those subscriptions to archive newspapers that go back, as, as far back as, as I’ve needed. Jenny Wheeler: It must have involved a huge amount of research, both series actually. How do you go about tackling that research and how do you go about balancing fact and fiction? And, there isn’t a lack of information on either time period. So that’s a big help. It’s all available. You just have to look for it. You just have to read it. And I like that history is the framework for both series. It’s the stage, but everything going on the stage is the mystery and the fiction and my imagination of work. Jenny Wheeler: Yes That’s a lovely way to look at it. You’ve got some wonderful tips on your website about visiting Newport and the places you should go and the things you should see. Just give us a quick little rundown, maybe the five things you think visitors to Newport should include in their itinerary. Never Miss out! 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What to see in Newport – Visitor’s Guide Alyssa Maxwell: You are right.. Definitely if are there for a few days, you have to see at least a couple of mansions. You know that’s a given. It’s a very walkable city. I would say get into town and walk and explore because the restaurants are fabulous. There’s a lot of shopping and it’s just fun to be out there among the rest of the crowds. Another really fun thing to do is to take a Harbor Tour. They’re usually an hour or two. You go out on a boat and you can see Newport from the water. You see the backs of the mansions, you see the coastline. It’s really beautiful and you get a whole new perspective that you don’t get on land. Something else is to remember is that Newport isn’t just about the Gilded Age. It began in the pre-colonial, pre-revolutionary times. I think the oldest properties were probably there in the 16 hundreds. There’s parts of town, especially what they call The Point, which is on the harbor, it is a colonial neighborhood. Walking up and down there you’re, it’s like you’re back in time. So that’s a lot of fun. And let’s see. I would, there’s another, there’s the cliff walk. Which is I don’t know how many miles it is along the coast and again, you can see the backs of the mansions and you can look at over the ocean. There’s another one called something Sagwitch? West Point, which gives you an unspoiled New England coastline. It’s very similar to the cliff walk, but without the development, without the mansions and that kind of thing. You really can see some New England, Rhode Island nature from there. And it’s beautiful. Jenny Wheeler: What time of year is the best time to go? How Alyssa Maxwell began writing Alyssa Maxwell: Oh boy. I would say anytime starting June. Through the summer, it is very exciting because that’s the high tourist season. If you don’t mind the crowds, but you love boats and yachts and that kind of scene, that’s all going on into the Fall. Then you get fewer crowds, it’s still a little bit still busy, but you begin to get some of those fall colors and it’s cooler. Honestly, I would say anytime from June through Christmas, because Christmas there is special. Everything used to be closed When I first met my husband. Newport shut down for the winter. The preservation Society didn’t keep the mansions open, but now there’s a few of them open and they’re decorated for Christmas, so I, yeah, I would recommend that too. We did that one year. It was great. Jenny Wheeler: Sounds fabulous. Turning now to looking slightly more widely at your career. Tell us a little bit about your early life and how you got into writing fiction. Did you always know you were going to be a writer? Alyssa Maxwell: I think some of my earliest memories of, what do you want to be when you grow up? Yes. I did want to be a writer. I didn’t know what it really meant and I didn’t know how to get started. I tried to be practical as people told me I should, go into some field where you can use your writing, not a creative writer. I think I didn’t begin to truly think about becoming a fiction writer until a friend of mine that I had worked with published her first novel. It was a romance for Harlequin, and I went, oh, she’s just a regular person. A very intelligent person, and very creative, obviously. But something clicked in me and I realized, maybe I should try this. So I did. But yes, even as a kid, I think I knew this was in me. I loved to write. I was always writing, whether it’s stories or a diary or letter writing to friends. We did that back in the Stone Age. It’s always been there, As early as when I first began to write, could write physically, I enjoyed it. ‘Something clicked’ on way to publication Jenny Wheeler: And how was your journey to publication? Did you more or less just write a book and find an editor? How did that work out? Alyssa Maxwell: I’m laughing. I wish that it happened. I wrote… I think it was my sixth book that finally was published. It was a romance, but then I also sold the fifth book after that, but I didn’t start writing mysteries until I was about nine books into my romance career and realized that I was often putting in some sort of mystery, or suspense thread into my romances. Again, something clicked and I thought let me try mysteries. And I immediately realized that it would be set in Newport. And then I had better luck. I didn’t have to write six mysteries before I sold my first one. I did sell Murder at the Breakers, my first mystery. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. We always like to ask our guests about their taste as readers because this is a podcast listened to by people who are really voracious readers what do you like to read? Have you been a binge reader in the past and have you got anything you’d like to recommend to our listeners? Alyssa Maxwell: I’ve always loved. Mysteries, I’ve always loved historical fiction. So I read a lot of that. I read pretty almost, I don’t want to say exclusively, I do read some contemporary, sometimes some contemporary fiction, but the vast majority of what I read is said in the past. I just find it fascinating. I love history and I love the challenges that characters face in the days before our modern technology, A life was really more difficult when you didn’t have a smartphone in your pocket to look things up, or the police didn’t have modern forensics to solve their crimes. Alyssa’s favourite genres to read Alyssa Maxwell: I liked that people had to live more by their wits than having any kind of outside help. Jenny Wheeler: So who are some of your favorite authors? Alyssa Maxwell: I read very widely, and I wouldn’t want to start naming names without including everybody because don’t forget writers read each other. We’re friends and, we love to read each other’s books. One thing I will say is I belong to a group called Sleuths in Time. And we support each other and cross promote each other. And I would encourage anybody to go to Sleuths In Time on Facebook and look at the authors there and the books that we’re all writing. I think there’s some really good stuff there. Alyssa Maxwell’s next 12 months Jenny Wheeler: Lovely, and we’ll include that link in the show notes for this episode so people can find it, which is great. Tell me a little about what is next for Alyssa as author, what have you got on your desk for the next 12 months? Alyssa Maxwell: I am writing another Newport book. It is Murder at Arleigh, and after that I have two more under contract, so that’ll keep me busy for another couple of years. The Next Lady and Lady’s Maid book comes out in February. And I’m already got some ideas about a possible future series something perhaps set in 1930s. I’m thinking in this country, in the US. Never Miss out! 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The Lady and Lady’s Maid series Jenny Wheeler: So how many Lady and Lady’s Maid books are there in the series now? Alyssa Maxwell: There are eight, with the ninth coming out in February or March I think it is Jenny Wheeler: And you are really at this time still fairly intent on keeping both of these series going? Alyssa Maxwell: For now. Yes. Alyssa Maxwell: I should mention Murder at Vinland for any Florida friends or people are interested in Florida. That book has a Florida Tie-in, which is a little bit different for the series. They don’t actually go there, but there’s a lot of information and things that relate back to Florida in the plot. Jenny Wheeler: I was going to say, you are living in Florida now, aren’t you? Tight? Alyssa Maxwell: Yes. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time at your creative career, if there was one thing you could change about it, what would it be? Alyssa Maxwell: I think the only thing I would change is I might have started writing mysteries sooner, but other than that, I think, I heard an author say once that we all have our own path to follow. We have to take our own for good or bad. And I believe that, I think everything that has happened for a reason and it’s helped me grow as an author. Where to find Alyssa Maxwell online Jenny Wheeler: Sure. I think that you are one of the authors who does live appearances. You do get to do face-to-face contacts with your readers, don’t you? But where can people find you, either online or in person? Alyssa Maxwell: The, probably the easiest would be to go to my website, Alyssa maxwell.com because from there you can find my links to Instagram, Facebook, BookBub, Goodreads, all of that. I tend to be mostly on Facebook and Instagram, and people can always message me or email me, that’s fine. There’s a contact form on my website if they’d like to ask me a question or make an observation. I’m always open to that. Signing off from The Joys Of Binge Reading Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful, Alyssa, thank you so much. It’s been great talking and we’ll have a great deal of pleasure in putting this up in a few weeks. Alyssa Maxwell: Oh, thank you so much, Jenny. This has been fun. Jenny Wheeler: That’s it for now. If you’ve enjoyed hearing about Alyssa, look out any of the other 300 episodes of the show, found on all of the popular podcast channels, including YouTube podcasts. I’m sitting down to write more historical mysteries, and I’m currently working on the Sisters Of Barclay Square series, set in 1860s, Sydney, Australia. You’ll find all my book news at my website, Jennywheeler.biz. Bye for now and Happy Reading.

We’re celebrating a milestone with this podcast, the 300th episode of The Joys of Binge Reading show. And it’s wonderful to be able to share it with best-selling author Helen Brown. Helen is a good friend and a former colleague who is appearing on the show for the second time, so it’s just like all the stars are aligned. She has a remarkable gift for creating stories readers love with a mix of memoir and imaginative fiction that crosses international boundaries. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and this is the second to last episode of The Joys of Binge Reading, at least for the time being. We love having Helen here to share it with us. She talks about her latest book, Mickey, The Cat Who Helped Me Through Times Of Change. Those of you who know Helen’s work, know that cats feature prominently. Her classic memoir Cleo, The Small Black Cat That Helped Heal A Family has sold over two million copies and been translated into 18 languages, sold in 42 countries. Mickey is another heart touching gem, a wistful coming of age true story about the transition from childhood to adolescence, and the small stray cat that helped guide the way. We’ll get to Helen in just a moment. But before we do, I want to say a few words about the show. As I’ve indicated, both today and earlier I’m retiring it at least for a season, to pursue other things like writing my own books. Our Giveaway This Week With that in mind, our Giveaway this episode is Poppy’s Dilemma, Book #1 in my latest series, The Sisters Of Barclay Square, set in Sydney in the late 1860s. Poppy Barclay’s privileged life shatters when her father’s investment company collapses amidst shocking allegations of fraud. Download for FREE DOWNLOAD E BOOK https://dl.bookfunnel.com/8qspkbukp3 Jilted by her fiancé, shunned by the elite, the beautiful heiress finds herself an outcast, her dreams of a perfect marriage in ruins. She’s determined to fight back, but Poppy’s quest for justice puts her up against tenacious journalists, Thomas Yates, who is bent on exposing the truth behind the Barclay’s disgrace. You can get a free copy of Poppy’s Dilemma from the download link in the show notes for this episode on our website, the joys of binge reading.com. Here is the link to download: Alyssa Maxwell’s Newport murder mysteries I’m halfway through the first draft of the second book, working title Posey’s Peril about Poppy’s twin. And without the podcast to take up my time, I’m planning to finish it next month. As I foreshadowed, this will be our penultimate show. There will be one more episode, # 301, because I committed to featuring historical mystery author Alyssa Maxwell’s was latest book months ago, before I’d made the decision to give Binge Reading a rest, and we recorded the interview in April or May – quite some time ago. I’m going to stay true to that and do that last episode so it doesn’t waste the effort of being interviewed on Alyssa’s part. The show started in August, 2017, so we’ve been going for seven years straight, podcasting weekly for the first six years and fortnightly for nearly the last year. It’s quite a load to carry, forever lining up new guests, reading their books, researching their careers, and then doing the technical work of sound and transcript editing for every episode. The technical side of it in particular has become tedious and time consuming, and ironically, I’ve had lots of problems getting this last show recorded. The reasons for that are too boring to go into, but suffice it to say that after 299 reasonably straightforward episodes, #300 has proven particularly difficult technically speaking. Technical issues sorted – at last! It’s appropriate that I had to call in sound engineer Dan Cotton, who edited the show professionally for me for the first few years, to sort out the problems in this, our second to last show. There’s a nice circularity about that for me. Thanks to everyone like Dan and Abe who recorded the intro we’re still using, for their help and support, and warmest gratitude to all our listeners. We’d developed a creditable audience and I’ve met some wonderful people along the way. The show will be out there long after this ending. I’m in the process of uploading all of the audio onto YouTube podcasts, and it’s on all of the major platforms. You’ll still be able to find wonderful chats with favorite authors for a long time to come. That’s enough said. Let’s get to Helen. Links to items mentioned in this episode Previous Binge Reading episode featuring Helen: Oct, 2018 https://thejoysofbingereading.com/helen-browns-feline-adventures Books Helen is reading: David Brooks How To Know A Person – The Art of Seeing Others Deeply https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/112974860-how-to-know-a-person Prentis Hemphill, What It Takes To Heal – How Transforming Ourselves Can Change The World https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/195888446-what-it-takes-to-heal The Rest Is History by Dr Tom Holland and Dominic Sandbrook. https://www.bloomsbury.com/au/rest-is-history-9781526667748 Poetry Unbound:  Fifty Poems To Open Your World https://www.amazon.com/Poetry-Unbound-Poems-Open-World/dp/B0BCL3VW15 Trip to Romania for environmental research https://www.britannica.com/biography/Nicolae-Ceausescu Snow globing: Watch comedian Mae Martin explain it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jE77WFTc8PI Where to find Helen online: Website: https://www.helenbrown.com.au/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Helen.Brown.International.Author/ Instagram:  @helenbrownauthor Hello, Helen. And welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Helen Brown: Oh, thank you very much, Jenny. It’s lovely to be here. Jenny Wheeler: Look, this is our 300th episode, so it’s really wonderful to be finishing it off, talking to you, an old friend. We’re talking about your latest book, Mickey, The Cat Who Helped Me Through Times Of Change. Tell us about Mickey.   (Ed note: Because of the aforementioned technical difficulties, this small intro was not recorded on the raw sound file – goodness knows why not!  Apologies.) Introducing Helen Brown author Helen Brown – International best selling memoirs Helen Brown: The inspiration for Mickey goes back to those Covid days. Jenny. I don’t know how you went through them, but for me, I felt so isolated and disconnected from the world and I experienced a deep kind of loneliness. I never thought I was a particularly sociable person, but that feeling of disconnect was so strong, and I know people felt that all around the world. I was sitting in my study here in Melbourne feeling very isolated and alone, and I thought, oh my God, I haven’t had this feeling for so long. But it’s a little bit familiar and it reminded me of when I was 12-years-old, transitioning into adolescence, feeling as if I belonged nowhere, and wondering how on earth to go forwards. And at the same time, my father was a wonderful photographer and I have quite a few of his photos, his colour slides printed out and mounted on my walls here. And in that deep chasm of silence of those Covid months and years, his photos became more vibrant and more powerful, and they beamed into this room and the characters became more real than living characters. And I just thought, oh my goodness, I’ve got to write about these people. They’re my friends again at this moment, mom and dad, and my sister and brother. Mickey rescued from gas works poison And then of course, I was reminded of my saviour at the time, who turned out to be a cat. My father was manager of the local gas works in New Plymouth where we lived. We were quite an eccentric family. Jenny, I don’t know if you’ve picked that up from the book. Jenny Wheeler: I have. Helen Brown: One day my father said, ‘would you like to come for a drive?’ And I thought, oh gosh, he’s never asked me for a drive, so I said yes. We jumped in the old blue gray Zephyr. It was pouring with rain and he drove me off to the gas work. I thought, ‘oh no, we are going back to dad’s work. I’m just going to sit outside here in the car while he does something important. ‘ But no. He went in and came out carrying this cardboard box. He opened the door and put the box on my lap and he said, ‘take care of this, will you?’ And I lifted the lid of the box, looked inside, and a face looked up at me. The face of a three-month-old gray tabby. And in that moment, that kind of visceral moment of connection, I felt the presence of another soul and someone who could really help me through this difficult time. But… Helen’s Mum hated cats….. Jenny Wheeler: Now, this is probably the first of many interactions that you’ve had with cats. We perhaps should mention now that you’ve done a number of other cat books, some of them have been international best sellers. But there was one other thing about this amazing family that you grew up with. Your mother didn’t like cats? Helen Brown: No. She was a country person and she thought cats belonged in barns. To her, their only use was to catch rats. She didn’t dislike animals. She quite respected dogs, but cats she did not like. As a result of this, when dad gifted me this scruffy tabby – the rest of his family had all been poisoned – we had a pact that I would have to hide the cat from mum, because mum was going through her own crises at the time. She was auditioning for The King and I and the local operatic society and mum took her theatrical life incredibly seriously. When she was auditioning for something we all knew we had to take a big step back and just hope to heaven that she got the part. So it was quite a good time to try and introduce a hidden cat into our crazy household, because she was so distracted. Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned this crazy household. You were also living in an amazing house as well, in a provincial town in New Zealand, in New Plymouth, An Italianate dream, still standing today Jenny Wheeler: And that house is still standing today. When you came back to New Zealand on a book launch tour you actually revisited that house. How was that for you? Helen Brown back at the house that is featured in Mickey Helen Brown: Oh, it was profoundly magical. And I’m so grateful. The current owners Jocelyn and Peter Rich welcomed us. And they’re not only that, Jocelyn is a total cat person. She’s got cats that she adores and one of the things I write about in the book is the food we ate in the sixties. These were times of such change, and on one level, food was one of the great changes. I remember mum introducing us to pizza for the first time. It wasn’t really pizza, it was just pastry with cheese on top. But she was saying it’s Italian. And when they had parties, they made these sticks with cherries and cheese and pineapple on them. And this is what Jocelyn so kindly made us the day we visited the old house. It was just so moving. My sister came along too. It was something that’s very hard to put into words, to revisit those spaces. And at the same time, to acknowledge that it’s their home now. And it’s special to them too. And they’ve renovated it beautifully, whereas we lived in it like wild things. I don’t think mom and dad could afford to do anything much to it. Dad was always up a 60-foot ladder trying to paint something like weather boards and it had this great tower and a turret where I kept my white mice. A ‘far from ordinary’ family That was one concession actually, that we were allowed quite a lot of freedom because of the wild nature of that house. It was very elaborate. I think someone said the designer is Italianate. You had to be insane to buy it, especially in the sixties when everyone wanted to live in a pastoral colored box, so nobody really wanted to buy it. I think mom and dad got it pretty cheaply and we were lucky to live there. Jenny Wheeler: Look, this family of yours. In the book, you do refer to them as “far from ordinary.” Do you think that most families are “far from ordinary” or were you just particularly lucky to be brought up in this one? Helen Brown: I suppose no family is entirely ordinary and everybody has their quirks. But I think because mom and dad, they were very unusual really. Dad was 13 years older than mum and they were both visionaries in their different ways. In some ways I wanted the book to be a homage to mum’s generation of women because during the war when all the men were sent off to fight and battle. young women like my mother were given wonderful jobs while they were away. Mum got a job, Jenny, you’ll appreciate this, as a full-time reporter on the Hawera Star, not just the women’s page. And she looked back on those four years as the best four years of her life. When the war ended, she, like many other women, was encouraged to give up her job, give it back to a man and get into an apron and have babies. Mum was a very intelligent and talented person and the society she was squeezed back into really didn’t suit her. I think in today’s world, she would be a very fulfilled professional woman of some sort. And then dad was very unusual in his own way. He was an engineer who played the piano. They both loved music and that’s what brought them together. And so he was a gas engineer who loved the arts. You were allowed to be a Renaissance man in those days, I think. Not that he was sporty at all. The other thing that was different about him was he didn’t go to war because he had only one kidney. He stayed behind, and I think we felt even as a family, we felt a level of – I don’t know – guilt that he hadn’t gone and fought for his country Keep fairies at the bottom of the garden Jenny Wheeler: Look there is also quite a strong mystical aspect to this book. A sense that there is a dimension to life, which is not just everyday domestic. There’s a whole other dimension. And I wonder if, for you, that’s always been the case, if there’s always been a mystical or a visionary aspect to life. Helen Brown: Very much. I think part of that comes from dad, who always used to quote Shakespeare about there ‘being more things on this earth, Horatio than any of us could dream of.’ (Ed note: from Hamlet.) And he always said to me, ‘keep fairies at the bottom of your garden.’ Which I took quite literally, because I actually had saw fairies in my bedroom coming down the wallpaper at night. That was one of the things going back to the house. I thought I need to go back to my room and see if the fairies are still there. I went and looked. The fairies used to open my bedroom window every morning at quarter to seven when I asked them. Jocelyn said, “oh no, we put a lock on that window so the fairies aren’t doing that.” I did look up at the wallpaper and I thought it could have been reflections from the milk truck in the mornings, but then I used to see them at night. But also I had eye problems and I was lining myself up for more eye surgery, partly to get more attention. So yeah, the mystical. It was very much encouraged too by that house, because it would creak and in earthquakes, it became a shuddering kind of, I don’t know, another world. And even through all of my life, I think I mentioned to you the fifth wall in every room. I love that idea of being open to what’s in the gaps, because if you’re a creative person, that’s where your energy, your creative energy comes from. It doesn’t come from sitting in front of your computer trying so hard. True inspiration from the non physical world It comes from releasing and letting energy come from the gaps, and that’s what I often try and say to aspiring writers. Don’t push it too hard. Go for walks, look up at the trees, let the gaps become a bit wider so you can get some true inspiration from the non-physical world. And I find that also with cats. Cats also are very attuned to the non-physical. They sense us when we walk into a room. They sense the energy of a house. They work out whether someone is a cat person or not, and if they’re not, they might like to go and sit on them, I find. Jenny Wheeler: I totally agree. As you were speaking about them locking the window, it occurred to me. Maybe they had to lock it because the fairies kept on opening it. Helen Brown: I know. And I said to Jocelyn and Peter, I often dream I’m walking around this house, so if you ever feel there’s a ghost here, it’s probably me. And she said, Oh, Pete, did hear footsteps down the back hall one day, and he’s a doctor, he’s a scientist. So it was very generous of them to accept there might have been some other spirits there. Jenny Wheeler: I referred to the fact that you’ve got at least one international bestselling book, and that was also about a cat called Cleo, who had a very special role in your family. Cleo has sold 2 million copies and is available in more than 40 countries. Tell us about Cleo. Helen Brown: She came into our lives at a very different time. There is a gap between where Mickey ends Jenny, and where Cleo begins. I got into journalism for bizarre reasons, really, because Mum said to me practically from birth, don’t, whatever you do, don’t get pregnant before you get married. But you must have a qualification for a job as well before you get married because you have to be able to look after yourself. Desperate to get married By the time I was about 18, I was bloody desperate to get married, so I ended up marrying this British radio officer whom I’d met at a ship’s party. I flew off to the UK, and I had done the one year Polytech journalism course in Wellington. I really wanted to be an artist or a ballerina. I gave up ballerina because my bones were too big. And the course to become an artist was going to take four years, but the course to be a journalist was only one. And I knew about journalism from mum, because she did keep writing columns and things for most of her life. So it wasn’t a scary choice for me. I ended up taking the one-year journalism course in Wellington and then flying to the UK to marry my boyfriend who I’d met at that party. We’d written for three years. I thought I knew him through the letters, which I interpreted in my own way. I had a bit of journalism work in the UK though, which was great. But I remember two weeks after I was married, putting a little flower in a flower arrangement on top of the toilet system and thinking. My God, I’ve made a terrible mistake and I thought, oh my God, what do I do now? I thought there’s only one thing I know. I know what will fix this. A baby. So I gave birth to Sam at the age of 19 in Wellington’s St. Helen’s Hospital, and of course it didn’t solve everything. In fact, it made life more complicated. I think I had postnatal depression, which the doctor gave me Valium for, and that only made me cry more. So I was put into a corner and thought there’s only one thing I have any training and know how to do. That’s right. Journalism. I started writing little pieces for the local rag, a little throwaway paper the Karori News, about things that made me laugh and cry and competitive parents and waiting for the postie to toil up the hill because we were in this desolate new subdivision. A macabre train journey opened doors I’d write these little pieces and people seemed to quite enjoy them. And then I wrote one piece about catching the Northerner train from Wellington to Auckland. There was a body in the carriage behind us, and every stop at a station through the night, we’d hear the station masters at various stops saying, oh, how’s the body? Oh. Where’s it going to? Who’s in it? Blah, blah, blah. And it was quite funny. I wrote that up and then Dear Brian, who ran the Karori News, came back to me, and said, look that piece you’ve written, he said, it’s too good for us. I don’t think we can publish it. And I was too naive to realize that was rejection, Jenny. You must have rejected many a piece in your time? Jenny Wheeler: Can’t recall ever doing so dear. Helen Brown: I sent that piece off to The Dominion, which was the daily newspaper in Wellington. They took it and I think they paid me a princely sum, like $40. It seemed like so much money. I think it was double what I was getting from the Karori News. Ultimately they started taking these pieces every week, which was wonderful. I found I could sell them to other newspapers, and for a while they were syndicated to seven newspapers around New Zealand and it was great. But then in 1983 Sam and his brother Rob, found a wounded pigeon under a tree in our backyard and they wanted to take it to the vet because Sam was a great animal lover. They persuaded their father, who was looking after them, to let them put the bird in a shoe box and take it down, walk down to the vet. They got only part way there. Crossing the road, Sam stepped out from behind a bus and was mowed down and killed. A life blown apart, shattered He was nine. And our lives were blown, absolutely shattered and blown apart, as anyone who has lost a child would know. Jenny, you have experienced something similar. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, I have. Yeah. Yeah. Helen Brown: And there was no grief counselling in 1983. I was only 28. I didn’t know where to look, or what to do. Anyway, about three weeks after the funeral, this woman arrived on the doorstep with this little black kitten, and I just thought, I don’t want this. I remembered it because Sam had chosen this kitten from a litter about a month before the accident, and he begged to have this kitten for his birthday, and he’d already named her Cleo, and I was about to turn this woman away, and Rob, who was only six, came running out behind me, said, “oh mom it’s Sam’s kitten. It’s Cleo. Welcome home Cleo.” And I think I realized at that point that this little kitten was there in some kind of healing role for all of us, even though I didn’t really want it to begin with. And Cleo brought… she was very funny. And with her, she had that feline, or perhaps animal ability, to know when people actually needed her on their lap or in just her presence. Or she could perform tricks, like fighting with the rubber plant, and because of her, Rob finally managed to go back and sleep in the room he’d shared with Sam. She offered our family so much. The other thing, Jenny, with this tragedy was I thought, I don’t know how to move forward. I thought maybe I’ll stop writing. Or I can pretend that I’m still this happy suburban, housewife and write jolly pieces that would be fake or I can write what happened this week? I remember sitting up in bed with my typewriter, my portable typewriter, just putting in bare facts about what had happened, and it got published. And then in the days after that, our letterbox – it was way pre email – filled up with envelopes from people offering such solace in the way that so many other people hadn’t been able to, people who didn’t know what to say. The comfort from strangers Some of those were from other parents who lost kids and I got the greatest comfort from them because they told me, our son went for a walk in the bush one day and he never came home. Or our daughter had terminal cancer. They told me their stories and they would say, this happened to us and our lives have changed, but we have survived and you can survive too. From that I felt a great debt to those people, and that is one of the reasons I sat down to write the book, about Cleo in the hope that it might help others going through loss. It doesn’t have to be a child, any kind of loss. We all have broken hearts, I hoped that it might be a way to reach out to them and say, Hey, you are not alone. We’re in this together. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful, Helen, and you did. There was quite a gap between that experience and the book. But in those years, you continued to write columns that touched people’s hearts, and that’s what you do in your books. You bring a human sense of loss and just what life’s about that’s international. That crosses cultural and geographical boundaries, doesn’t it? Helen Brown: As human beings we are all pretty much the same. You don’t have different wiring if you’re born in Russia or Ukraine. We all have the same wiring. We all need love, and we’re all vulnerable and we’re all broken in some way. We’ve got so bad at communicating deeply with each other, at looking into each other’s faces and seeing each other. We really need to relearn how to be human, especially with all the technology and AI. The message from that, as far as I’m concerned, is we just need to remind ourselves how to be human. No computer can truly love us or comfort us, but that involves looking at each other again, seeing each other again and reminding each other how to be present for each other in ordinary life. Don’t buy them a phone, get them a pet Jenny Wheeler: I don’t want to get all theoretical about social media, but today we are really encouraged to try and keep up a big front of being. Fine. Everything’s fine. We don’t even want to start that work of acknowledging some of these vulnerabilities. Do we? Helen Brown: No, it’s too binary, isn’t it? Because the other side of that. I remember just recently I opened my phone and there’s a picture of someone’s blood in the toilet and you just think, oh my God. The other extent is that we have to be enormous victims. We are capable of so much more, and we’re not going to solve all our massive problems until we tune into those complexities. Otherwise, we’re losing it. One of the things I was thinking of, I was 12 now and a bit remote. I wasn’t very good at making friends. If you read Mickey, you’ll find, I think, my sixth birthday, I hid under the bed while all the children that mom had invited, played, and I waited for them to go home. Today, I probably would’ve been diagnosed with something and my parents in their deep concern would probably have given me a phone and I would’ve disappeared into that for at least a decade, I think. Whereas dad gave me a cat. And Mickey taught me a lot of things that no phone or. Any available…. There were no adults or peers available to teach me at the time. So yeah, I suggest to people that before they give their early teenage kids a phone to consider, at least consider a pet. I noticed that girl who won the skateboarding at the Olympics, a 14-year-old Australian girl, and her parents said she could have anything she liked as a reward, and she said I want a pet duck. I thought, oh my goodness. It’s the same thing. She would love a dog or a cat, but they travel so much. They couldn’t commit to an animal like that, but a duck. Yeah. So I thought, whether it’s 12-year-olds or 14 year olds they haven’t changed much have they? Another special cat for a special time Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Now we are starting to run out of time. It’s been fabulous. But tell us about the next book. because that’s also a beautiful story. Jonah followed Cleo and was also incredibly successful, particularly in the USA, where you’ve got a really big following. Tell us about Jonah. That book won a literary prize in France. Helen Brown:. Weird things happen. I never know what’s gonna happen. Jonah came many years after Cleo had died and Cleo lived to be 23. I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I had a mastectomy and my darling sister Mary came over from New Zealand to look after me and I was lying in bed. (Helen has lived in Australia for many years. – Ed note) I couldn’t walk very well because I’d had a reconstruction. They’d taken fat from my belly and made a fake breast with it. And she said, I’ve just been down the neighborhood and I’ve just seen something really special, but I’m not going to tell you what it is. Talk about big sister energy. So what is it? Where is it from? She’d walked past a pet shop, and I know you’re not supposed to get animals from pet shops, but this is 15 years ago and so I hobbled down there because I couldn’t stand up straight with Mary. And in the middle of the pet shop was a cage full of kittens. But one of them was particularly insane and it was using the other kittens as a trampoline and bouncing off them and climbing up the wire. And it was a little white thing, like a little white clown, and it climbed up the mesh wiring, fixed me with these two blue eyes, put its paw through the wire and touched me. I was chosen. He had to come home and we named him Jonah after Jonah Lomu because that kitten was so athletic and crazy. Learning to be a risk taker Jenny Wheeler: Now just tell people who Jonah Lomu was, for those who don’t remember him. Helen Brown: Oh yes. Someone called him Liquid Bronze. He was a wonderful New Zealand rugby player. Unfortunately, he died of kidney disease, far too young. He was very charismatic, a wonderful athlete. Jenny Wheeler: And when I was doing a little bit of background for this chat we are having, I came across this a magazine article from a number of years ago in which it was described a book launch you had, where you had yourself carried in by some more bronzed men and also you did a one person tour at one stage where you wrote the script and performed it all around New Zealand. You’ve always been an amazing risk taker. I look at you and think, wow, how does she do it? Have you always been like that? Helen Brown: I think partly because I suffered that tragedy at an early age of, 28 when the worst happens, you lose fear ultimately. You can just implode and try and hold onto the remnants of the life you’ve lost, but after a while you become very open to ideas and because, nothing lasts… You’ve lost, what you treasured the most. I think it’s not, maybe not risk taking. I’m just open to fun and joy and I don’t feel I have a lot to lose really, and I suppose a low boredom threshold. But that was fun. That night with those boys, they said to me, oh, how much do you weigh? We had this chaise longue and I was in this mermaid outfit. I don’t know, I think I might’ve lost a bit of weight for that, but they were gorgeous. That was a fun night, Jenny. And what? Oh, the show. Life’s A Banana Cake. That was partly ‘because of  New Zealand jazz singer, Malcolm McNeil who said, ‘we should do something together sometime. Let’s do a show.’ We wrote a life story around his singing and that transitioned into a more simple show just with a piano. And we raised over $40,000 from that show, partly for hospices around New Zealand. Some for a curtain in my old school. Yeah, I think Jenny. Life’s …you gotta go for the fun. If it shows itself, if it’s on offer…. Cleo and Rob – helping children grieve Jenny Wheeler: That’s absolutely wonderful. As we’ve been sitting here, I suddenly remembered that also you adapted Cleo for children. At the time we talked about the need there was for a children’s book, for children facing massive grief as well, and there wasn’t really anything there for them. Tell us about Cleo, the Child Edition. Helen Brown: I called it Cleo and Rob and because Rob’s now a middle aged man, but I felt utterly helpless for him because there was nothing to help him through that time and to even acknowledge what had happened to him. I think children do grieve differently, certainly on the outside, from the way adults do. At the time Rob became pretty quiet and withdrawn, but he could still seem very happy at other moments. It was complex watching, observing him. When Cleo, the adult book became such a success, I felt there was a gap there. It would be lovely because people – maybe 13 year olds up – read Cleo and I’d get emails, I still do, from that any age group right up to 90 year olds, but I wanted to maybe try and communicate a sense of hope and acknowledgement for smaller children who are actually going through it right now. The book is found some good places. It’s one of those books that will show up where it’s needed. I believe it’s in some funeral homes and hospices and even normal kids like to read it. Just about every kid, , in their school years… There’ll be one summer where somebody doesn’t come back from the holidays. There’s been a car accident, there’s been something. I think this book was a way to try and help children who know of the loss of other children, just to make it out there as a part of the conversation. What Helen is reading now It was interesting going to primary schools with that book when it came out. I was so impressed with how emotionally intelligent kids up to the age of 10, are. The questions they asked were so matter of a matter of fact, in some cases, profound in others. They were just curious and they welcomed the opportunity to talk about death and what happens afterwards. Jenny Wheeler: We always like to ask our authors about their own tastes in. reading and what have you been reading lately. Have you got anything you’d like to recommend to listeners? Helen Brown: Oh gosh, you should have told me that. I always forget what I’ve read. I’m reading a wonderful book at my How to Know people. It’s by an American columnist who’s so famous. I’ve forgotten his name now. It’s downstairs. I’m loving it because it’s about this whole thing we’ve been talking about, connection and how we’ve got to… particularly in the States. I was just on tour in the States and we’ve got such polarization of ideals and people are just shouting at each other that what they call snow globbing, and we need to stop doing that. We need to come together. Someone’s got very different views from you. Get together with them, find out why they have those views, and then you don’t have to hammer your views back at them, but just see them as human. Jenny Wheeler: We’ll put those in the show notes for this episode. Jenny Wheeler: So, you’re reading mainly nonfiction? Helen Brown: Yes. They’re both wonderful. Not so much fiction. I’ve written one fiction book and I know how you can get totally absorbed in that and it’s not real. I I’m more interested – because of my journalism background journey – I’m very interested in people’s views of real life. I’m very interested in history, podcasts, anything that helps me make sense of however many years I’ve got left on this planet and for my children and grandchildren to understand the complex and miraculous honour of being human. Looking back down the tunnel of time… Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing you’d change about life, I’m talking now about your creative career, what would it be? Helen Brown: Oddly enough, I would take more risks. I think if I have any regrets, it’s lack of confidence. It was a different time in the seventies and eighties and nineties, when I was working full time as a journalist.  It took me quite a long time… In fact, it wasn’t until someone wrote an article, that I found out that all the male columnists were earning double what I was, and I was the solo mom. I was supporting a family and two kids. There was a quite a bit of misogyny. With those commitments, wasn’t in a position to take great many risks. One of the most wonderful things was when one of my bosses, Judy McGregor, said, oh, why don’t you apply for a press fellowship to Cambridge University? And I said no, I can’t. I didn’t go to university. She said, oh, that doesn’t matter. They’ll be interested anyway. Just send a sample of your work and a subject you’d like to look at. And I thought, they’re probably not even going to read my application. I’ll think about this as in 1989. I said I would like to study environmental issues from a spiritual perspective. And I thought, there you go, Cambridge University. And then about a month later I got a letter of acceptance, which I was completely nonplussed. And when I got to Cambridge, it was big, because I had to leave the kids behind for three months. This little man came and met me and said, ‘I’m going to be your supervisor. Unfortunately we don’t have an environmental department. I’m a geographer. Environmental disaster areas – take your pick Only hippies believed in the environment and. And I said what can we do? He said ‘the only university I know of, there’s one in Romania that teaches every subject from an environmental perspective, including dentistry.’ And I said, ‘oh would you come to Romania with me?’ There’s the risk taker. And he said, ‘oh no. I actually can’t. He was a very timid little man, but I did persuade Philip and Lydia to come with me when the fellowship ended. It was 18 months after Nicolae Ceaușescu  had been killed. The whole place was in disarray. I went to the university where every subject was taught from a environmental perspective, including dentistry, and I sat in the staff room. And it had a very weird energy. And I looked at the wall behind me and it was covered in bullet holes because students had been killed there 18 months earlier. And they said what do you want? And I said I’d like to see an environmental disaster area. And they said. Okay. We have 15 environmental disaster areas. Take your choice. So it was a wonderful adventure. Jenny Wheeler: And just for those who don’t know your family situation, Philip is your husband, and Lydia is one of your girls. Helen Brown: Yes, she’s become a clinical psychologist, which is probably a reflection of growing up in an insane family. And we have four grandchildren, granddaughters Jenny Wheeler: You always turn everything into such an amazing adventure. So what did you end up writing about for your Cambridge stay? Meeting with the Dalai Lama Helen Brown: I came back to New Zealand incredibly inspired because also because of that, at Cambridge, I met the Dai Lama’s chief interpreter and he gave me an exclusive interview with the Dai Lama, who also wasn’t fully developed in his ideas about environmentalism at that point. He has since though. Of course I couldn’t teach him anything about spirituality, but we had a wonderful half hour together. Anyway, I had all this material. I took it back to my New Zealand publisher, and I was pregnant with our daughter, Kath, and he said, oh, this, it’s an international book. We’re not really interested in this. Could you write a book about old people? Now I’m old, I probably would be honored to write a book about old people, but I lost my confidence. I have a friend actually in Wellington who says, I must write about that time, and maybe I should! Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that sounds wonderful. That that brings us very nicely to my last question, and that is what are you working on now, as an author? What’s, what does your next 12 months look like from your desk? Helen Brown: From my desk? It’s got tissues, it’s got magic stones or crystals. It’s got piles of paper, but it does have the best book on screenwriting you’ll ever need. It’s called Save the Cat, because someone had the film rights to Cleo for 10 years and eventually, I decided to claim them back.  My dear publisher Jude is encouraging me to write a film script. We do have some interest from a New Zealand company, but we’ll just see how we goI did write for television, a New Zealand on Close To Home, and Country GP, so I know how to do a script. I’m thinking I’m having a crack at this. I feel like I’m in my own power It’s quite fun and it’s not so lonely. I think like writing books is very lonely and you do go insane, I think, with loneliness. And this, at least there’s some collegiate work involved, though they’ll probably destroy every word I’ve ever written in it, but who knows? And then there was the Japanese death tour Jenny Wheeler: They do talk about the collaborative process with scripts. Yeah. Helen Brown: I’m open to that. My ego is… I think it’s that you write this long for these many years, you don’t have a hell of a lot of ego left. I still have a lot of curiosity and a lot of gratitude. I can’t believe the wonderful things that have happened in the places I’ve been. I haven’t even told you about the Japanese death tour. That was fantastic. About going up to Sendai. Jenny Wheeler: Tell us about that. Helen Brown: When Cleo came out in Japan I was invited to Sendai where the tsunami had been five years earlier, I think. And then to attend three Death Symposia. The first one up was up there. And it was fascinating. I remember because these people had been through so much and the women in particular were very self-contained, and the men, I didn’t know how to touch them, but I remember talking and at the first talk there was a row of photos at the back of the hall and it seemed to be of women holding babies. And I thought, oh, that’s nice. I’ll go and look at those. I got there and the babies were all dead and it was their way of dealing with some of their grief. Some of the women in the community were knitting clothes for dead babies, and I just wasn’t sure what to do except be myself. And it turned out they would come running and say Helen San and want to just be held by this big antipodean teddy bear, which I was very honored to do. ‘Magnificent elements of death and dying’ There was a symposium in Tokyo and Kyoto. It became so fascinating because Japan has had to deal with death so many times, from Hiroshima right through to the tsunami and so many other ways that, and they were speaking to people somewhere medics, a lot of medics trying to find a way.to handle grieving. The traditional Japanese village way, which was there were a lot of rituals around that, but they were finding increasingly they were putting people in hospital beds and just pulling the curtain in the Western way, denying the more subtle elements and the more magnificent elements of death and dying. And they were trying to relate the two so people, because people weren’t living in villages anymore, how they could find ways to embrace death without being too sterile, and linking back to their own culture and they have some wonderful. rituals that we would benefit from. I love the one every year they bring up the burial pots of their beloveds and put them around the table and have a wonderful feast with them. And I thought we wouldn’t be doing that in Taranaki probably, but I thought it was really healthy, so they taught me a lot. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic Helen. Just a final one question. Obviously you. enjoy interacting with your readers, probably more than many other authors. I know you get fantastic response. How do you handle all that and where can people reach out to you? Where to find Helen Brown online Helen Brown:  Oh I’m on Facebook and Instagram. I do love hearing from people. It’s a two-way thing really, because as I said, that goes right back to that connection when parents who’d lost children helped me. I was giving a workshop recently on memoir writing, and someone said, if there’s one piece of advice, what would it be? And I said it’s ‘Get a Maureen.’ I have a wonderful reader who’s read my stuff for 40 years. She first wrote to me. She lives in Rangiora in New Zealand. And she’s since knitted clothes for all of our grandchildren. And when I get writer’s block and I become too self-critical, and I can’t go on, I sit at the computer and think, oh, actually. Maureen would quite like this. No, this isn’t soap. This is a little bit funny. Maureen would smile and I said, you don’t actually need a physical Maureen. You can have the Maureen inside yourself, who’s kinder to you, kinder to your creative self. I do value my readers very much. Jenny Wheeler: Helen, that’s the most wonderful way to finish off. Thank you so much.

Jeff Carson is the Amazon-Bestselling author of the David Wolf series, thrillers set in the high country of Colorado, chock-full of action, mystery, thrills, and suspense. With millions of copies sold internationally, he’s regularly recommended as suitable for fans of David Baldacci and Daniel Silva. Hi I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today on the Binge Reading show Jeff Carson talks about how he turned a year-long stay in Italy into a fulltime writing career, and his new series, a big change to David Wolf, featuring Italian woman police officer Ali Flavia, set against the backdrop of Italian culture, ancient walled towns, tourist mayhem and fabulous food and wine. Two Free Book Giveaways We’ve got two book offers this week, and the first books in my two series are on offer. The Thriller and Mystery series Giveaway has Sadie’s Vow, #1 in the Home At Last series on offer. download free books ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/thrillingfreebies-jul/4h2xrdstd8 The Kobo Editor’s Pick’s promotion has the Of Gold & Blood book set – #1 and #4. Kobo Editor’s Pick kobo free books selection Visit the following link(s) to see the promotion: ​https://www.kobo.com/p/free-ebooks​! If you live in a country that isn’t included in this promotion, you may have trouble accessing the sale link. If this happens, change the flag at the top of the Kobo homepage to one of the included countries to see the sale link properly. This is one of the last shows I’ll be doing for a while on The Joys of Binge Reading. I’m taking a break after two more episodes, but I’ll be posting many of the past interviews on YouTube so if you’ve missed them, you’ll find them there. Links to things mentioned in the show Carabinieri: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri Disc Golf: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disc_golf MHZ.com: https://www.mhz.com/ Ali Falco: https://www.jeffcarson.co/ali-falco-series What Jeff is reading now: Lincoln Child: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Child https://lincolnchild.com Agent Prendergast series: https://www.prestonchild.com/ Douglas Preston: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/12577.Douglas_Preston Marko Kloos: https://www.markokloos.com/ Where to find Jeff online Website: www.jeffcarson.co Or his Amazon books site:  https://www.amazon.com/Books-Jeff-Carson/s?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AJeff+Carson Introducing Jeff Carson, thriller author Jeff Carson – thriller author of David Wolf Colorado Mountain series But now, here’s Jeff. Hello there Jeff and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us. It’s great to have you with us. Jeff Carson: Nice to be here. Thanks for having me. Jenny Wheeler: You are somewhere in Colorado and I’m in Auckland, so that’s a good long reach between us. You’ve got this Amazon hit on your hands. It’s obviously not a surprise because you’ve written 17 in the series now. David Wolfe, a small-town, Colorado mountain sheriff. Tell us about David. How did he come to life for you? Jeff Carson: Yes, you’ve got that right. He is a small-town Colorado Sheriff. My wife is from Italy. I guess it was like 2012, 2011? We were visiting Italy for a year because we had a son, and my wife wanted to go to Italy and be with our young son there and to be with her mom and dad and get some support with the young son and stuff. And I was at a crossroads in my professional life. I did not like what I was doing and I got this idea that I was going to start writing fiction. Long story short, I got looking into these self-published authors and all, I was just like, I didn’t even understand that existed until when we got to Italy. And then I realized in the drop of a hat. I’m going to be a fiction writer. My wife was nice enough to not disown me or leave me after that. But I decided to start writing books. I’m in Italy, in this country where I don’t know, in the area, nobody speaks English whatsoever, and I didn’t really speak Italian that well. A brain storm in Italy I felt very isolated, but I just got this idea to start writing. I knew you’re supposed to write about what you know, and I knew Colorado and I knew that I missed Colorado. That was the first thing that came up into my mind of the guy. It was actually the second idea I had, but whatever the first that stuck was like having a cop in the mountains of Colorado. I missed the mountains of Colorado. I decided to make this series about the mountains of Colorado, about this cop. So that’s how it came about. Jenny Wheeler: On your website you have got quite a funny blog post about that experience and you describe it as “firing first, aiming later.”  How much research did you do before you started out? You are compared with people like David Baldacci and Michael Crichton, real top of the line popular fiction authors who were very much in the mainstream. Did you aim to settle yourself there right from the beginning? Jeff Carson: Yeah. I was so like rock bottom with what I was trying that I was just like, ‘what the hell?’ Why would I not try to be just the best I could? I loved all those authors I. was reading them at that time. And I wanted to be precisely like them, make my covers like them and make my books just as compelling as theirs were. I read a bunch how to write fiction books. Just devouring them, like one per day because I was in such a hurry to make this thing work. I knew it wouldn’t. probably work for years, but I had definitely a fire lit under me. I learned the basics of what it takes to write fiction, or, maybe not the basics, but how complex it is. And then after I read like three of those books, I was like, ‘Okay. Come on. They’re saying the same things. I’m gonna have to try it now.’ Cliffhanger endings – a No No!! I made every mistake under the sun at first; my first book had a cliffhanger ending. It pretty much ended in mid-sentence, so you would buy the second book, because I knew I was going to write a series. And that was the business plan also, as well as just the fiction plan, the story, arc plan. There was no aiming for the first couple books. It was just try to make a great, and then I had to go back and rewrite everything, knowing that if I was going to keep doing this, nobody’s going to read the first book and continue on reading the other books. It doesn’t matter how many books I write, if that first one could really turn some people off.  I had to go back and really hone those first couple books. Jenny Wheeler: I think cliff hangers are interesting because I think some people still believe that they’re really necessary. You’ve decided perhaps that they’re not the best way to go. Jeff Carson: No, there’re actively terrible ways to go if someone’s thinking about it. There’s a certain nuance to it. If you’re going to leave certain storylines unresolved, the main storyline better be super resolved.  Sub storylines? I have kept them unresolved just because wolf is constantly growing as a person. His love life, his family life, his professional life. But as far as if there’s a murder, the murder’s got to be solved by the end of the book. If you’re going to throw a ball up in the beginning of the book, it’s got to be caught and dealt with by the end of the book. People get very angry, if you don’t. Jeff Carson learned from his mistakes Jenny Wheeler: Did you have readers who gave you that sort of feedback at the beginning? Jeff Carson: Yes. I was getting one star reviews right off the bat and they were saying like, ‘I’ll never read anything he writes ever again. I don’t care how much I like the story,’  I’m like, wait a minute. That’s okay. That’s some anger right there. But yet they liked the story like, oh no, what? What did I do? And then I realized, yeah, you can’t do that. Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting that you mention about the development of family because the other thing about doing series, especially if you have a child in it, is that it’s hard to fudge the timeframe, the timeline thing. And you do have David having a son who’s 12, I think, when series begins. I haven’t read right through the whole thing, but I did wonder how you’ve managed to let his son develop in a realistic way, but also keep a kind of father son relationship going. Did you find out a bit of a challenge and where are we up to with the son now? Jeff Carson: Oh yeah, it’s super difficult. Because I didn’t want every book to just be the next day, all of a sudden another crime happens. It’s like just the murder capital of the world, the middle of the mountains, in Colorado, So there’s time lapse in between each book, at least usually seven months, nine months, a year. And then possibly even a more between a couple books. So now his son in one of the books is having his own son. Wolf’s son was freaking out about that and Wolf had to help him through that. And it’s tough yet to how to gauge the speed at which you’re going to go through this timeline of their lives, because precisely what age is Wolf? Even I still don’t know.  I don’t want to admit it, but I don’t even know. He’s probably early fifties, mid-fifties or something, and every new book, you have to gauge I and think, okay, what’s going on here? Where is everybody? What are their ages? What are their kids’ ages? I actually had a reader help me go through all my books and give me the names of all the characters and what their relative relations are and when they showed up and, because it’s really a big deal, Jenny Wheeler: Amazing. That is what they call, a Series Bible. And I was going to ask you if you had one of those. It’s often helpful not to be too specific about those things, isn’t it? Because then a few books up the track, you find yourself trapped. You can’t have somebody being, oh, suddenly they’re 23 when two or three books ago, they were 22. That sort of thing. Echoes Fade, No 17 in David Wolf series Jeff Carson: Exactly right. And the timeline didn’t work out. Yeah. So you gotta be vague, but that’s fine to most people, I think, unless it’s like a super specific thing that needs to be part of the story, like it’s his 21st birthday or something. Who cares precisely how old this person is? Jenny Wheeler:  Number 17 in the series just published is called Echoes Fade, and it starts with a rare attack by a mountain lion on some people who are camping in a caravan park. The series has got a very strong feeling of the natural environment, the mountain location, the temperatures, the weather, the way it’s so changeable. Is all of that part of the living in Colorado important to you? Jeff Carson: Yeah, that’s exactly what I love about Colorado. The natural beauty and going up to the mountains, it just seems to escalate. You’ll be on a hike and if lightning strikes you’re all of a sudden freaked out, you’re not just ‘ooh, there’s some thunder.’ You’re like, ‘oh crap, we gotta get off this mountain.’ I love the nature of this place. I’m looking outside right now and there’s clouds building in the west, and we know there’s gonna be some thunderstorms this afternoon, and that’ll be fun when they hit. I like to look out and be like yeah, it’s hailing now, or whatever. I just love it. It’s very important to me. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Jeff Carson loves about Colorado Jenny Wheeler: Are you into hiking, camping, rafting?  Outdoor stuff? Jeff Carson: Yeah. I like to hike a lot. In the winter we ski. I think I used to do a lot more when I was younger. Mountain bike and all those things that now that I have young kids, I’ve changed. I’m not interested in flying down a mountain on my bike. It’s not something I’m interested in. I play disc golf. I don’t even know if you’ve ever heard of that, but it’s golf with Frisbees. That’s a major part of my life now because it’s very outdoorsy and you’re in the woods all the time. But the answer is yes. I love the outdoors and I do a lot of stuff outdoors. Jenny Wheeler: Wolf is also a former Army ranger, and this sometimes comes into it, in terms of relating to guns, but also he gets flashbacks of his experiences when he was a soldier. Is that also something that you share? Jeff Carson: It is not, no, it’s not. I made a choice at the very beginning. I made a lot of interesting choices at the very beginning. And it was funny. When I started writing I remember thinking, should I write like science fiction? And I remember thinking like, oh, that’s too nuanced. I’m going to have people. emailing me about what I got wrong for this and wrong for that. And then I ended up choosing like the most intensely scrutinized thing ever, police procedurals with law. And he’s ex-army, a former army ranger and people are coming out of the woodwork talking about military procedure and all that. It’s funny that I chose those directions, but it’s nothing that I had any. experience with it. I just found that interesting in a character, and that’s what I went with. The army ranger trope in thriller fiction Jenny Wheeler: It is almost trope in this adventure fiction now, that those men often like to retire into very quiet corners of the world, isn’t it? And get some peace and space around them after the experiences they’ve had. Jeff Carson: Exactly. It was a trope, at the beginning. It was like, okay, he’s he’s got to be skilled. So, he is ex-army, he is a former army ranger Jenny Wheeler: So, then did you have to seek out some friends or colleagues or acquaintances who had those experiences? How did you research that aspect of it? Jeff Carson: Yes. I had some former high school friends that I went and talked to and took copious notes and read some nonfiction books. Then, you have to just be super specific and thorough with your Google searches when they’re not there. When you’re in the act of writing and you can’t just have someone sitting next to you looking over your shoulder for that stuff. I talked to a lot of people about that. Jenny Wheeler: The other thing that is mentioned is that he’s got Navajo blood. I’ve read a number of the series, but I haven’t come across one yet where that particularly comes to the fore. Have you exploited that side of it yet very much? Jeff Carson: Not very much beyond the second and third book, I think. Other than exposition about that. It never is an essential theme that’s going on in his life in the story. Jenny Wheeler: It’s definitely one that you could introduce in the continuing series if you wanted to isn’t it? Jeff Carson: Exactly. Ali Falco, the woman carabinieri Jenny Wheeler: As well as Wolf, you’ve got another series, which you’ve just started set in an extremely contrasting location, but the sense of location is just as strong as with Wolf. That is an Italian series. You mentioned that your wife’s Italian, you’ve got very close links with the country and you’ve got now a female cop in a small town in Italy, Ali Falco, and that one is very much urban; ancient walled towns, food and wine, very much Italian focused. Tell us a bit about Ali and why did you introduce the second series? Jeff Carson: It was a matter of sitting down and continuing to write the Wolf series, although I love it and it’s comfortable. It was almost too comfortable, every time I sat down to write it. I knew that I wanted to do something else and completely different. I decided to do female and our family has spent a lot of time over in Europe and in Italy specifically because my parents, my wife’s parents live over there, It was natural to me to, every time I were over there, imagine this would be a great scene. I’m always daydreaming about scenes that would happen in these places, and I loved Tuscany the most. When we were, whenever we go there, I just love it there. The rolling hills and then these little towns you can get stuck in and the wine and the food and everything about it. It was natural to me to make it a series that took place there. Then as far as storywise it definitely was very difficult too, because it’s one thing to be say oh, this scenery’s great and everything. You got to still make a nice compelling story. To convince readers that this is a real person, with a real history who grew up in Italy and this and that. It’s very interesting and it’s very fun contrast to me. I used to always watch these PBS type specials that are set in rural England or something or Italian, or whatever. International TV thrillers a favorite watch I watch those shows on a website called mhz.com. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that. It’s got like all the international shows. Subtitled. I’ll watch a bunch of those. I like international mystery thriller or international mysteries. I’ve always been intrigued by those, so I just wanted to write some of those, Now I have two Ali books. Jenny Wheeler: How did you go about getting inside the Italian carabinieri, and all of ways in which they operate? Did you have a mate there who’s a police officer? Jeff Carson: No, I don’t. The way I got some of the insider information and some ideas was through my wife’s father. He has a lot of life experience and he loves to tell these stories and a lot of his stories intrigued me and he gave me some good tips on, how the structure, the rank, and so forth, because everybody has to do military service when they’re younger in Italy, and so he has a lot of friends in those places. I read a lot and Googled a lot there. And would love to find yeah, carabinieri or a police officer over there that speaks very good English that I could hang out with, I have not found someone like that in real life over there yet. Jenny Wheeler: Looping back to the very start of our conversation and you saying how you had a year off in Italy and you just became possessed by this idea of writing fiction. Had it always been something you dreamt about or did it somehow just captivate you when you had a little bit of spare time? Jeff Carson: I think that I realized I had always been dreaming about  it in a flash, and I just didn’t have anybody telling me, or giving me permission to do this thing. I had a creative writing class that I did in college. I remember that the teacher loved my story and she made me get up and tell it. That was a very fulfilling thing, a validating thing that happened to me with all around writing. Being a novelist ‘coolest thing ever’ And I remember telling my father one day when we were driving cross country. I remember saying to him it would be so cool. It would be the coolest thing ever to be a novelist. But nothing ever clicked in my mind that’s what you could do. I thought you had to be a millionaire. A multimillionaire, retired. Then you write. Then I realized in Italy that time, that was when Kindle came out and people were actually writing and making like a living with this thing. And I was like, ‘Wait a minute. What? Wait, I’m doing this.’ It clicked. Wow, it’s actually possible to write, to be a writer. Like you don’t have to, do something else. Yeah. Retire. Yeah, it just clicked in my mind that’s what I’ve always wanted to do, and I’ve never looked back from that moment. Jenny Wheeler: What was the biggest challenge in setting yourself up as an indie author at that time? Jeff Carson: You had to have… it’s still the same challenges now. You can’t just write one good book. You have to write many good books. I don’t know if it’s ever really changed, in the history of all authors. Look at Agatha Christie with all her Miss Marple books and with the Poirot books. And you’ve got the Hardy Boys books. I don’t even know how many of those books are, they’re like 75 or something, there the series and if you have one book in a series, then it’s not really a series and nobody’s finding it, and I knew that I needed to have three to five books to really tell myself, I’m making a true go at it. I even told myself I’m going to write 10 books. I just came up with this audacious goal because I wanted it to work so bad, that I was like, all right, I’ll do it. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The tough part is writing great books I’ll write 10 books and then I will make a decision about whether this is working or not. If I’m not even making a penny, why am I doing this? Nobody likes ’em. What’s the tough part? It’s just getting the books out, Jenny Wheeler: So now you’ve sold multimillion copies of your books on Amazon. Some of them have got 12, 13,000 reviews. An amazing number of reviews there. And I think you are also on Kindle Unlimited. You’ve decided as a strategy to stick with basically being an Amazon author, have you? Jeff Carson: Yes. I remember from the very beginning. I was reading a bunch of books also, about how do you make money being a self-published author? First it was like, how do you make money being an author? I realized like going the traditional route wasn’t the way that these people were making money. I went and looked up everything I could on how to be a self-published author, and it just seemed super complicated to be. everywhere, as in Apple, Kobo, Barnes and Noble, all the places, versus only published on Amazon and being, –  back then – you were treated much better on Amazon too. If you were to upload back then, I’m not saying now, but like back then, if you were to upload a manuscript on Apple, people were waiting three weeks for them to even show the title. I thought why would I even care? And then I can just worry about writing, and then marketing through the KDP system that they had. This was actually pre- Kindle Unlimited, so it was even some other stuff that they were doing, but they had three options of how to market your books. They made sense to me. If I went wide, publishing everywhere, then all of a sudden it’s okay, how am I going to find the readers now? It seemed a lot more complicated to me I stuck with Kindle only or Amazon only, it’s in print and there’s also audio books and there’s everything. It was a much simpler thing to me to wrap my head around from the beginning and then I could concentrate on trying to make the best books I could. How Jeff got David Wolf launched Jenny Wheeler: It’s obviously worked really well for you, hasn’t it? Jeff Carson: It has. Yes, it has worked very well. Jenny Wheeler: Turning back to that point too, of deciding to be a writer, give us an idea of what you had been doing up until then. It wasn’t anything involving marketing was it, so that you at least had some idea about how to go about marketing books? Jeff Carson: Yeah. I was doing some online marketing and trying to make my income portable so we could do things like go to Italy and stuff like that. And so I was familiar with the concept of what it takes to market online. I think it’s a little more obvious to most people now, but back then it was really weird to give away something for free. To work all this time on a novel, it took me months and months to write and then just give it to people. And I did that for like years. I gave away my first book. And then I had links to my other books inside of that book, and I assumed some people would like them and start buying the other books, and so that concept really helped me open my mind to how, or what and how it works to reach a larger audience. You get a looser grip on what you could make off of that first book. Like, how much money could I make? Just release that thought. Try to get into as many people’s hands as possible in any way possible. And try to make good books. That’s because in the end, if it’s not a good book, it doesn’t matter if it reaches 30 million people, they’re not going to want to read the next ones. Jenny Wheeler: Is another way of saying it perhaps that you understood how to create the importance of creating an author platform right at the beginning? Willing to stand out from the crowd Jeff Carson: The thing is, I literally did not create an author platform, and that was another thing. I saw people going to town on social media, being all over Facebook and all over Twitter and all over this. And, again, I said to myself, I don’t think that’s the platform. I think the platform is the books. The book is where the people are and at the very end of the book, they either want to keep reading the next book or they don’t, they’re not going to go to Facebook and then get convinced that way. It’s the platform are the books, I feel like. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. Turning to Jeff as reader, because we are starting to come to the end of our time together and we always like to ask our guests about their own reading taste. This is The Joys of Binge Reading.  Many of our listeners will be what they call ‘whale’ readers. They like to read through series, they like to discover new series. They want to invest time in a book that they know that’s going to be more like it. Tell us about your own reading tastes and whether you ever have been yourself a binge reader. Jeff Carson: I guess I would consider myself a binge reader. I read every night. I like pretty much the same genre I’m in, that I write in. I like a little bit of science. I love anything that’s science based and so I love science fiction. I love also a little bit of the supernatural along with it. I love like the Pendergast series and like that type of stuff. Then I am a junkie for nonfiction, self-help type stuff, I’m always looking to be better every day. What Jeff is reading now Jenny Wheeler: Do you mean with your writing or all sorts of things? Jeff Carson: All sorts of things. I feel like I’ve read or listened to all the writing books and all the self-help books. Jenny Wheeler: Can you name a few authors for us that you’d like to recommend to people who might be listening. Jeff Carson: I guess Lincoln, Child and the Pendergast series, It’s great. And Douglas, Preston. Any of their books. I just love that there’s super science. They follow the science and there’s always like some supernatural hint to it. I would recommend that. And then science fiction, which I also like to read. There’s another self-published author. I guess he’s with Amazon Publishing now, but Marco Klos, K-L-O-O-S. I really like him. Those are just a couple people I really like to read. Jenny Wheeler: Interesting. We’re coming up to close to 300 episodes of this podcast, and it just amazes me how many authors there are still around because, I’ve never heard example of Marco Kloos. And you think after all this time and looking around the web for popular fiction, it’s amazing there’s still so many of them out there, it’s just remarkable. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, I always do like to ask if there’s one thing you’d change about your creative career, what would it be? Jeff Carson: I don’t know. I think I’m in the midst of changing now a little bit and branching out from only writing. I feel like being in the dark or in the enclosed room in silence is getting to me a little bit. I want to do something else, maybe some film or some video. I bought a camera and I’ve been doing some filming. Maybe I wish I would’ve started that earlier. Otherwise, as far as writing goes, I’ve made some really bonehead mistakes in my time, but I wouldn’t have learned what I learned if I didn’t do that. I can’t really say I’d change anything. Is Jenny Wheeler: If you made some bonehead mistakes, you seem to have recovered from them pretty well. Jeff Carson: Yeah. I figured it out. Jenny Wheeler: Actually, that was something I was going to ask you because your books are so cinematic. Maybe you do watch a lot of TV, as you’ve said as well, but they’re very much in that frame of cinematic and you would think be very easily translated into TV or film? Have you got ambitions to maybe even turn them into scripts yourself? Jeff Carson: Yeah, I would love to, I would love to have it be a TV showI don’t think I know how that would happen, and that’s why I can’t picture it. Oh, here’s step A, B, and C and D to do, to make that happen. I am looking into that this year with a friend who lives out in LA who kind of knows, but I don’t. I don’t know how that would work, but yeah, the answer is, yeah, I’d love that for that to happen. That would be great. If anyone’s listening, call me. Jenny Wheeler: I always smile because you think about something like Bridgerton, those books were written 20 years ago or more. And now they are a sudden phenomenon. So, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to happen overnight, but it will happen. Jeff Carson: Yeah, hopefully. Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for Jeff the author, in terms of what have you got on your desk for the next 12 months? What are you finishing off or starting? Jeff Carson: I am in the middle of writing the next Wolf book, and that is all I’ve got going so far. I’m in the middle of that. I was writing that all day. until, this interview. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Jenny Wheeler: And how long does it take you to do a Wolf book? Jeff Carson: I think theoretically four to six months, if I’m concentrating, This one is taking forever because we went to Italy for five months. It was the same thing we did 12, 13 years ago. But we went with our two children this time, and it was fun. I was kicking myself for not writing as much as I maybe should have, but at the same time I was like, whatever, we’re not going to be doing this ever again in our lives. Who cares? But now that I’m back, I’m in writing mode and definitely productive. It usually takes four, six months, no more than seven months, if I’m concentrating. Jenny Wheeler: Where can readers find you online? And do you like interacting with your readers? Jeff Carson: Yes, you can find me. Just type in Jeff Carson on Amazon. I shy away from saying Google Jeff Carson because there’s some country singer that’ll always come up before me if you Google it. Go to Amazon or my website, Jeffcarson.co with no ‘m.’ I love to interact with people via email. That’s where I like to talk to people. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. Jeff, thank you so much for your time. It’s been wonderful talking. The books are terrific. They really are great. Entertainment and you live in a new world when you go in those books. It is really fun to read them. I recommend them highly to anybody who’s listening. Thanks so much. Jeff Carson: Thank you very much for having me. If you enjoyed Jeff you might also enjoy… Dwight Holing’s contemporary western thriller series starring Nick Drake owe their success to their readers, who are vocal in clamoring for the next book . . . In this binge reading episode Dwight explains how he sees writing as a collaboration and agrees with feted author John Cheever who once said “I can’t write without a reader. It’s precisely like a kiss. You can’t do it alone. “ LISTEN TO DWIGHT Next time on the Binge Reading podcast Next time on Binge Reading. We’re featuring international best-selling author, Helen Brown. Helen’s classic memoir Cleo, The Small Black Cat That Helped Heal A Family has sold over 2 million copies and has been translated into 18 languages and sold in 42 countries. Helen is a good friend of mine, so it’s pleasing to be celebrating the 300th episode of the show with her latest book. Mickey The Cat Who Helped Me Through Times Of Change. Those of you who know Helen’s work will know cats usually feature. Mickey is another heart- touching gem, a wistful coming of age true story about the transition from childhood to adolescence, and the small stray cat who helped guide the way. That’s next time in two weeks on The Joys Of Binge Reading podcast. That’s it for the day. See you next time and happy reading.

Irish magic from Jennifer Deibel – the best- selling and award-winning author of a series of charming Emerald Isle novels combining history, family, faith and romance. Her newest book, The Irish Matchmaker…introduces matchmaker Catriona Daly. Hi I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today on Binge Reading Jennifer talks about how a US born gal fell in love with Ireland. and her latest book The Irish Matchmaker. As daughter of a well-known matchmaker, Catríona Daly is no stranger to the business of love – and she sees it as her ticket away from the sleepy village that only comes alive during the annual matchmaking festival. Our Giveaway this week Our Giveaway this week is Summer Sleuthing – June Mystery Thrillers. Sadie’s Vow – Book #1 in my Home At Last San Francisco historical mystery series is included. Stock up on some great summer reading here! download free summer mysteries ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/summersleuthing/9mwtzhs5pv Before we get to Jennifer – a reminder You can help defray the costs of production by buying me a cup of coffee on buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx And if you enjoy the show. Leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links to things mentioned in the episode A Dance In Donegal, Jennifer Deibel:  https://www.amazon.com/Dance-Donegal-Jennifer-Deibel/dp/0800738411 The Princess Bride (movie) Irish location:  https://giggster.com/guide/movie-location/where-was-the-princess-bride-filmed#: Lisdoonvarna:  https://matchmakerireland.com/ https://www.ireland.com/en-us/destinations/county/clare/lisdoonvarna The Maid of Ballymacool, Jennifer Deilbel: https://jenniferdeibel.com/books/the-maid-of-ballymacool/ Willie Daly, Irish matchmaker: https://www.williedaly.com/ Books Jennifer is reading: Jaime Jo Wright, The Lost Boys of Barlow Theater: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/90203406-the-lost-boys-of-barlowe-theater Natalie Walters Snap agency series:  https://www.amazon.com/The-SNAP-Agency-3-book-series/dp/B08XW1LGC3 Where to find Jennifer Online Website: www.jenniferdeibel.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jenniferdeibel_author Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/JenniferDeibelAuthor Introducing author Jennifer Deibel But now, here’s Jennifer Hello there, Jennifer,  and welcome to the show, it’s great to have you with us. Jennifer Deibel – Historical Irish mysteries with magic Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Jennifer. Hello there, Jennifer, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Jennifer Deibel: Hi Jenny. Thanks so much for having me. I’m looking forward to chatting. Jenny Wheeler: These Irish stories are both best sellers and award winners.  How did you come to start on the Irish story thread? Jennifer Deibel: It all feels like it happened by accident, but I believe everything happens by design. My husband and I had lived in County Donegal for two years as students. We were studying the language and the culture. My husband had fallen in love with all things Celtic after spending a summer abroad in Wales during university. We spent two years there and when we came back I was expecting our first baby. He went into graduate school in Texas and I was struggling to process all we had experienced in those two years. An Irish American girl moves to Donegal The idea for what would eventually become my debut novel, A Dance in Donegal, came to me, a story about an Irish American girl who moves to rural Donegal to teach. I started writing it then and of course once my baby was born, it sat for a very long time. It took about 15 years for me to actually finish the whole manuscript. During which time we moved back to Ireland and lived in County Galway. While we were there, we had our son and I heard about a parenting website that was starting up called The Better Mom and they were looking for contributors. I applied there and was accepted and was encouraged to start my own blog, so readers would have a place to go to if they liked what I had to say on The Better Mom. My blog opened the door for me to write for some other publications across the country, and that’s when I started making the connections that would eventually lead to my first book contract, which I signed, I believe in 2018. It was a long road, and I never thought as a child that I would write a book. But I always thought it was something that would be fun to do. I just didn’t think I was capable of it. So that time in Ireland really is what planted the seeds of ideas for all of these stories. Was there a little Celtic in their blood? Jenny Wheeler: Did either you or your husband have Irish ancestry that might explain that magic thing that seemed to have captivated you? Jennifer Deibel: Absolutely. My maiden name is Martin and where we lived in Galway was actually not too far from one of the main Martin strongholds in Ireland centuries ago. So I’ve got that background is in my blood. My husband has English and Welsh on his side. His grandmother was born right on the border of Wales in England, so we’ve got the Celtic blood in our veins for sure. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s great. Now, the one we are talking about today is the fourth in this Irish series, The Irish Matchmaker. And I hadn’t realized until I read the book that matchmaking is closely woven into Ireland as a tradition. The idea of a village matchmaker… I gather that it still does exist today in these days of Tinder. Tell us about the matchmaker in Irish village life. Jennifer Deibel: So, it’s really fascinating. I first learned about it when we were living in Galway, and we would have tour groups come over that we would lead and we would take them all around and driving from Galway City down to the Cliffs of Mohr, which to some people might be better known as the Cliffs of Insanity from The Princess Bride (movie). We passed through a little village called Lisdoonvarna, and there was always a huge billboard for their annual matchmaking festival. The more I looked into it, I discovered that in this particular village it sarted in the late 18 hundreds when a doctor discovered the mineral content of the wells in that area were very high and could be used for medicinal purposes. The fancy, rich, cultured folk would come in the fall to take the waters and use that opportunity to set their children up with each other because it was one of the few times that gentrified people were around other people of their stations to be able to do that. A third generation Irish matchmaker At the same time, the harvest had just ended and the farmers were coming into town to spend their money and make trades and do market days with their livestock and things like that. The farmers finally had time and money to look for love. It was born out of this, seeming happenstance and it continues on for the entire month of September. To this day, Willie Daly is the current matchmaker. He’s third generation, and he continues to match people up all throughout the festival and is pretty well known worldwide for it. Jenny Wheeler: Did you get to talk to Willie Daly? Jennifer Deibel: I did. We spoke over email multiple times. We tried to set up a phone call, but that was difficult to do with him, of course, being in Ireland and me being in America and he wasn’t super comfortable with Zoom. But he was able to provide me with lots of valuable information about what it was like for him as a child growing up with a father who was a matchmaker, as well as his time as a matchmaker himself. And he also wrote a memoir called Ireland’s Last Matchmaker. And it’s an absolutely charming read. If you’re ever wondering what it’s like. It reads like a novel almost and gives the details of what goes into matchmaking. What’s the terminology for each different part of the process and what does that look like, and what goes into deciding who would be a good match and who wouldn’t be, and all of that. It’s absolutely fascinating, and invaluable to me through the course of writing this book, for sure. A successful family business Jenny Wheeler: Catriona, your heroine and her father Jimmy, run a very successful family business as matchmakers. They have inherited this down the generations, and I gather that there is an aspect of it that is an inherited skill as well as, perhaps some of it being learned almost like an intuition. Tell us about that aspect of it. Jennifer Deibel: I think you can’t help – like any family business – if you grow up in that environment, you can’t help but naturally absorb a lot of the skills and thought processes and intuition that goes with it. My husband’s family were a mechanic and auto family and it seems like they all are born knowing all this stuff about cars. And I think that’s how it was for Catriona and Jimmy and certainly how it seemed to be for Willie, our real life matchmaker. Being immersed in that from day one. And being able to have a front row seat to that. You get to learn how to read people in a way that I think other people might miss. And you learn how to look beyond just the surface. While two people might seem good on paper for one another, sometimes there’s something within the meeting that a matchmaker might pick up on that someone in the general public might not. And I think it’s a little bit genetic and a little bit learned just from being immersed in that process and in that culture and having a life of observation and reading people, which I think is really cool. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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And Catriona is wanting to change the direction of her life. She’s been a matchmaker for quite some time, probably a decade or more, and she’s got to the point where she wants a match of her own. She decides in this book to perhaps do something that isn’t quite within the rules of matchmaking and that is manipulate a man for herself. Tell us a bit about that. Jennifer Deibel: Yes, so poor Catriona. She’s reached the phase of always a bridesmaid, never the bride. She’s very good at what she does and so everybody comes to her for their matches, her and her father. And she is at the point now where she wants that love for herself. She’s starting to get a little bit of a root of bitterness. In the match that she’s making in the opening chapters of the book, we see she has a hard time watching the happiness of the bride and groom-to-be because she wants it so badly for herself and she doesn’t really see the kind of man that she wants in the tiny farming village of Lisdoonvarna. She doesn’t want a life of poverty and the only way she can do it is to finagle a match with a man above her station, Bringing the charm of Irish stories to the world She doesn’t really think that’s possible until a gentleman returns who had been at the festival the previous year and was matched with or by a matchmaker from the neighbouring village and they’re going to use the Daly family services and that’s when her plan hatches. She plans to see if she can match him with herself and she sees it as her last chance to “get out of Dodge” and finally get to the life of luxury that she so deeply desires, or thinks she desires. Jenny Wheeler: You say on your website that your books aim to bring all the charm of an Irish village to your story as well as hope and encouragement of faith. I wonder if you’d like to expand on that a little bit and perhaps try and explain to us what is the special secret of Irish culture. Jennifer Deibel: I think anybody who’s traveled to Ireland can attest to this. There is something about it that gets under your skin and haunts you forever, once you leave. The people are warm and inviting. They’re far deeper, more spiritual and philosophical people, than others might think. On the surface, they have the reputation of being the drinkers and the fighters and they’re happy-go-lucky, which they are in their own right, but they look at the world in a way that nobody else does. And there’s some sort of magic mixture when you’ve got the Irish sea air, the rolling Green Hills, the music, the language, all coming together with that Irish spirit of life. Seeing the fingerprint of the Creator And it’s unlike anything I’ve ever experienced. And I’ve been blessed to be able to travel all over Europe and America, and I’ve never found anything like it. And in my own spiritual journey I think those years in Ireland, in some ways, I felt closer to God and more rooted in my faith than I have at any other time. Everywhere you look you can’t help but see the fingerprints of the Creator and see the beauty of diversity in the language and the culture. It’s intoxicating. And I want to be able to bring that to people who will never be able to step on a plane and experience it for themselves. Jenny Wheeler: You are very upfront about these being inspirational fiction books, so faith does play an element. How do you balance that for the people who perhaps don’t share your faith, to make the story still fun for them? Jennifer Deibel: I try to approach it as organically as possible. If you were to read all four of my books, you would see the spiritual thread or arc is very different in each of them. In some it’s more upfront and more, articulated than in others and others it’s much more subtle, and I think that’s the way faith is for everybody. For some people it’s very strong and they’re very vocal about it. For others, it’s more quiet. Honesty an important part of faith I try to make it be more about the character’s journey in their own faith, rather than trying to make it a sermon or telling other people what they should believe. I want them to get that experience through the lens of somebody else, which is why we read. We want to be able to experience something through someone else’s eyes. I think that way it’s a little less intimidating and a little more accessible to people, no matter where they are on their faith journey. Jenny Wheeler: In this book, most of the main characters have become a little bit disillusioned or disappointed in their faith. They express those feelings of doubt or uncertainty, don’t they? Jennifer Deibel: Absolutely. And I think that’s important too for people who have been people of faith or followers of Jesus or a Christian, or however you want to say it for a long time, as well as people who have no idea what that might mean. I think it is important that we’re honest with ourselves and with our Creator about our struggles and doubts because that’s what makes us human and that is what makes it so relatable When you think, gosh, I’ve had those same questions. Like I’m not the only one. And it helps you be able to relate as well. And that’s where I hope readers are encouraged in their own journey. Whether they’ve never thought about God or they’ve been following him for, 50 years. Broad romance of place as well as people I want them to see that connection and see how they can use the lessons the characters learn to bolster their own faith along the way. Jenny Wheeler: Obviously romance is important in this book because it is a matchmaker that we are talking about, but you’ve got a lot of themes going there with faith, hope, family, and the Irish culture. How essential do you see romance as being to your overall stories? I. Jennifer Deibel: I think it’s central to the stories.  If you take the romantic element out of it there’s not a lot of the story left. But I think you could even change how you view romance. Of course, it’s the romance that we tend to think of the hero and heroine falling in love. But I like to think of it too as Ireland’s romancing the reader and drawing them into all things Irish and my prayers through the faith that they would be romanced by God and by the pull of his grace. There’s lots of layers to what I consider romance beyond the typical love story, but I think the love story is the story in my books anyway. Jenny Wheeler: I was curious about whether you began with historical fiction. I wondered if you’d had one of those careers where you’d started out writing for someone like Harlequin and then developed from there, but it wasn’t quite like that, although obviously you had a trainee ground with your blog and other writing. How important is the historical fiction aspect? Making history fit the story Jennifer Deibel: It’s integral to these stories because especially when you’re talking about Ireland, there’s such a rich history. You could fill a million books with stories of things that happened over the course of Ireland’s history and still barely scratch the surface. It’s important for us to look back. They say that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. It’s important to look back, but I also think it’s really fun to imagine what life might have been like back then because we have no way to tell. A book is a great way to be able to experience things that we’ll never be able to experience on our own. And to continue that legacy and that rich heritage that is there in that country, I think is important to keep at the forefront so that we don’t forget. Jenny Wheeler: Historical fiction authors always have that challenge of balancing the real-life history with their imagination and their stories. Have you found anything particularly tricky about doing that? And is there one particular time when you really felt challenged about whether you should stick to the truth of what the facts were or may adapted for your story? It’s perfectly acceptable to do it, but I just wondered how you approached that. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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I’m always delighted when I’m doing my research and I’ve already decided what time of year, what year the story is set, and then I find some really fascinating historical event that happened right at the perfect time to coincide with the story. With my third book, the Maid of Ballymacool there had been a raid on the house where the whole story is set. But it was raided by the wrong people and it was raided at the wrong time for what I needed in my story. I may have taken some creative liberties with some of those details and then straightened things out in the author’s note, but I do try to stay as true to history as possible because it’s important. We need to know how things really were. But there have been a couple of times like that – or I’ve had to leave the detail out of the story altogether, even though I really want to include it somehow. because it would just take too much fudging. I would feel like I’ve betrayed history in my ancestors a little bit if I changed it too much. That is a continual challenge with all of these stories. Jenny Wheeler: Have you done any family history? Are there any real relatives that you’ve identified still there? Jennifer Deibel: One of my cousins has done extensive research and she got all the way back to the early 1800s and our Martins were still in Tennessee, and the trail was starting to die out a little bit. We haven’t been able to trace it exactly back to a village or to current living relatives. I believe they’re out there. It’s just the research trail has gone a little bit cold and in my book researching. I haven’t had a lot of time to delve into it myself, but I would love to eventually Looking for Irish cousins… Jenny Wheeler: I hate to mention the dreadful acronym, DNA, but probably if she did a DNA test, you’d immediately find lots of third and fourth cousins. Jennifer Deibel: We probably would. We probably would. Jenny Wheeler: Tell us about the process of starting a new book. How do you approach that? How do you even decide on the central idea? And then do you do a lot of outlining beforehand or do you jump straight in? How do you go about it? Jennifer Deibel: Usually what happens is I pitch a handful of ideas to my publisher. Usually the story ideas are triggered by an event that I recently learned about, or a tradition or some historical detail that I stumbled across. Every one of my stories has started with that, where I learn about this new little nugget of fascinating history that I never knew about, and I just start asking questions. I wonder what would happen if,’ and that’s where the story ideas come from. Once they decide which ones they want, they tell me which ones they’d like me to do first. At that point the only outlining I really do is in writing the synopsis for the story to pitch to my publisher. I know the main plot points. I know the conflict, I know basically how it’s going to be resolved, but after that I’m what they, I like to call a ‘planter, ‘so I don’t plot in the traditional sense, but I write scenes in my head as I’m going about my normal life. Writing process ‘like transcribing a movie’ When I sit down to write, I just type out what I see in my brain, like I’m watching a transcribing a movie. I don’t always know what’s going to happen exactly after that scene is over. Sometimes I’ll write a scene, the floodgates are open, and then the scene is done. And then I literally have no idea what’s happening next until I have a couple of days to write it in my head again. I’ve tried outlining because I feel like it would be so much easier, but my brain does not want to work that way. Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned your third book, the Maid of Ballymacool. That did win an award recently, didn’t it? Tell us about that award. Jennifer Deibel: It did, it won the Selah Award for Historical Romance, which is done through the Blue Ridge Mountains Christian Writers Conference, and I was absolutely shocked. This was the first of my books to final in a major book contest. My debut won the Reader’s Choice Award for Historical Romance. But ever since then, I haven’t finaled in an industry contest. So I was absolutely honored to be a finalist. And there were eight other books that were finalists in the category. Blown away for winning an award I was completely grateful to be recognized and ready to celebrate whoever did win. And when they called the name of my book as first place, I think you probably could have heard my gasp in New Zealand. I was just absolutely flabbergasted. I’m still coming off that high. That was just a few days ago. I’m actually looking at the plaque as I talk about it. And I’m just grateful. My prayer is that people who are might be drawn to that book because they’ve heard of the awards that book deals with themes of identity and purpose in like your roots of who you are when you don’t know where you came from. Anybody who has been felt overlooked or unloved or undervalued I pray that story would be an encouragement to them. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. What you hope your readers get from your stories and what feedback that they say they get from your stories. Jennifer Deibel: The most common feedback I get is they feel like they’ve just stepped off a plane from a trip to Ireland, which just absolutely warms my heart. That is one of the biggest hopes that I have for everyone who reads the book. Lost in Irish world with Jennifer Deibel And a lot of people say that they see themselves in one of the characters, or they relate to one of the struggles or they appreciate the honesty that the characters have with their faith struggles or when a character has an epiphany on something they haven’t quite thought of it that way. I hear all sorts of things, but one of the main ones is they feel like they were in Ireland as they read. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. You mentioned about how you never thought you would write a book. There is that saying ‘we’ve all got one book in us’ and I guess there’s quite a few people listening who, if their keen readers do occasionally have that thought of, oh, I could do this. If someone was wanting to start out and write their first book, what advice would you give them? Jennifer Deibel: I would say just sit down and start writing. I think a lot of people, and I’ve talked to a lot of people, who’ve asked me that question who feel like they need to get some kind of training or some kind of a degree and learning the craft is important, but learning the craft won’t do any good if you don’t get the words on the page. And so like I tell my students – I teach seventh grade English. Every first draft is a poopy first draft. It’s called a rough draft for a reason. Getting started is most important thing Just get the words on the page. You can make it pretty later. And so that’s what I would say is if you’ve got a story idea brewing, just sit down and start writing and then look around for like-minded writers’ groups in your area. If you do a search online lots of things will pop up, because writing can feel very lonely, and it is solitary in that I’m the only one that can get the words out of my head and onto the screen. But a community of writers who are all going through the same process is hugely important, I think because I would’ve given up long before I ever published my first book if it wasn’t for the writers surrounding me, encouraging me and helping me see that I wasn’t the only one. So that would be my two biggest pieces of advice. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. Turning to Jennifer as reader, because we do always like to ask our guests about their own reading tastes and whether they binge read or not? Do they have anything they’d particularly like to recommend to others? Have you been a binge reader in the past and have you got time to read at the moment? Jennifer Deibel: I have been a binge reader. It’s strange. I feel sometimes a little bit like the odd one out in the bookish world. I haven’t always been a reader. As a child, I did not enjoy it. But what I realized was I just hadn’t found what I like to read. Of course I love to read historical fiction. What Jennifer Deibel is reading now That’s what I fell in love with reading and writing. But when I’m writing historical fiction, I can’t read it because it messes with my own head space. I’ve had to branch out a little bit, and right now I am loving romantic suspense and creepy suspense in the inspirational world. I am currently devouring Jaime Jo Wright’s latest book. I’ve forgotten the title (Editor Note:  The Lost Boys of Barlow Theater) It’s her most recent one. And then I’ve also been a binge reader.    The last series I’ve binge read was from Natalie Walters. It was her Snap agency series, and it’s an FBI, true crime, romantic suspense series that I could not get enough of. I need her to write the next one very soon. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. I haven’t come across either of those authors, so I’ll be interested to look them up. Jennifer Deibel: Definitely do it. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Jack of all trades, master of none? Jenny Wheeler: Now you’re pretty remarkable yourself in that you are still working, I believe pretty well full-time, as a school teacher. You’ve raising three children and still finding time to write award-winning books. How do you do it? Jennifer Deibel: I don’t know. I was telling my husband recently. We just finished the school year about two weeks ago. About four weeks ago, I was telling him I don’t feel like I’m excelling at anything that I do. I feel like I’m a jack of all trades, master of none. I see where I need to shore up things in every role. I could not do what I do without my family. They have been so extremely supportive and excited for me. My kids and my husband are my biggest cheerleaders. I think my husband cried harder than I did when my first books came in a box and we held them in our hands. So that’s number one. Then the other thing I have to do is constantly reevaluate which task is on what priority burner and moving things to the back burner for a while so I can focus on whatever the task is at hand. For my books, the bulk of my books get written over summer and Christmas and spring breaks. By the grace of God, a supportive family and just trying to prioritize on a daily basis is how I’m surviving these days. What’s on Jennifer Deibel’s desk? Jenny Wheeler: How old are your children? Jennifer Deibel: Our oldest is 19. She just finished her first year of university. Our middle is 17 and she is heading into her senior year of high school, and then our son is 13 and he is heading into eighth grade in the fall. Jenny Wheeler: They are older now, so not quite you needing the same sort of care, although they obviously still do need plenty of attention. It’s a mistake to think teenagers don’t need that attention, isn’t it? Jennifer Deibel: Oh, for sure. But yes, they make a lot of dinners when I’m on deadline. If they were little I would be at a different point in my career for sure. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. Tell us about what’s on your desk for the next 12 months. What are you working on right now in this break? Jennifer Deibel: I am actually on deadline for my first round of line edits, which is the nitpicky stuff – making sure the eye color stays the same. How many commas did I use? How many times did I use this word? The real nitty gritty editing for my fifth novel, which is set to come out sometime in January of 2025. And I plan to do the title and cover release on that this summer, sometime hopefully in June, but it might be July. Where to find Jennifer Deibel online And then I am also contracted for a devotional with my publisher that is Thirty- One Days of Devotions based on Irish blessings, and that is due in November, but I’m hoping to get it completed this summer so that I can start school in the fall with a kind of a clean slate. Jenny Wheeler: Lovely. And that fifth book hasn’t got a title yet? Jennifer Deibel: It does, but we’re keeping it close to the chest until we’re ready for pre-orders. Jenny Wheeler: Sure. And do you have any thoughts about number six? Jennifer Deibel: Yes, I just sent a handful of story ideas to my editor and she is taking them to the next step in the process in a couple of weeks. I should know, hopefully by the end of June, if I’m going to write book six and seven or beyond. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. That’s wonderful. Where can readers find you online and do you welcome, interaction online? Jennifer Deibel: Oh, I love interacting with readers online. The one stop shop where people can find information about my books, links to my social media, sign up for my newsletter – All of that is just on my website. And it’s Jennifer Deibel.com and that’s all the things that they need are there. Social media wise, I’m most active on Instagram, but I’m also on Facebook and it’s my favorite thing ever to talk to readers about books and life and all the things. I hope they come find me. Jenny Wheeler: Are you still doing a blog? Jennifer Deibel: Not really. There is a blog on my website, but I haven’t updated it in a very long time. Jenny Wheeler: That’s hardly surprising. With all everything else you’ve got on. Jennifer, it’s been wonderful talking. Thank you so much for your time. Jennifer Deibel: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s been delightful. If you enjoyed Jennifer you might also enjoy… Irish best sellers with Faith Hogan… Faith Hogan is an award-winning and best-selling Irish author of nine contemporary novels, the latest of which is The Gin Sisters Promise. Her books are for grownups, feel good woman’s fiction which is unashamedly uplifting, and inspiring, but doesn’t dodge the hard questions, Faith talks not only about The Gin Sisters Promise, her latest heartfelt family story, but also because her new Christmas book, On The First Day Of Christmas. LISTEN TO FAITH Faith talks not only about The Gin Sisters Promise, her latest heartfelt family story, but also because her new Christmas book, On The First Day Of Christmas Next time on Binge Reading Jenny Wheeler: Next time on Binge Reading. Jeff Carson and his David Wolf Colorado mountain series. It’s an Amazon hit with millions of copies sold internationally, and he’s regularly recommended as suitable for fans of David Baldacci and Daniel Silva. He talks about how he got started on that series and his new series, a contrasting series to David Wolf, featuring Italian woman police officer Ali Flavia, set against the backdrop of Italian culture, ancient walled towns, tourist mayhem and fabulous food and wine. Remember to leave us a review if you enjoy the show Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover us and great books. They will love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time, and Happy Reading.

Acclaimed Australian broadcaster and wordsmith Kel Richards is passionate about classical mysteries, and the Golden Age of the 1930s when Agatha Christie and her fellow authors were writing them… Kel is also an Anglican lay canon, deeply immersed in Narnia creator and theologian C.S. Lewis’ Oxford college world and his circle of friends, including Prof. J. R. Tolkien. Bring all of them together and you have Kel’s Country House Mysteries, featuring Jack Lewis and friends solving brain teasing “closed door” mysteries in 1930’s Oxford. Hi, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today on the Binge Reading show Kel talks about his love for old fashioned clue puzzle mysteries – the sort that aren’t generally written any more – as well as his passion for Australian English – one of the richest vocabularies in the world, in his view. Freebies and Sales This Week We’ve got two book offers this episode – the free Mystery  Thriller Freebies for June free featuring Sadie’s Vow, Book #1 in the Home At Last trilogy – A gold rush romance historical mystery series Three feisty women. Three steadfast men. A shared quest for justice. These mystery, thriller, and suspense writers have teamed up to bring you these FREE books! Scoop them up today! DOWNLOAD MYSTERY & THRILLER FREEBIES https://books.bookfunnel.com/thrillingfreebies-jun/nr6fg5wdhw PLUS – KOBO THRILLER AND MYSTERY SALE – GET OF GOLD & BLOOD THREE BOOK BUNDLE And there’s a deal on the first three books in the Of Gold & Blood mystery series – another Kobo multi genre sale offer.  Three long form mysteries, at a great sale price… get three books for price of one https://www.kobo.com/nz/en/p/june-thriller-sale Before we get to Kel – a reminder You can help defray the costs of production by buying me a cup of coffee on buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx And if you enjoy the show. Leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links to things discussed in this episode Dr Johnson mysteries, Lillian De La Torre,: https://www.amazon.com/The-Dr.-Sam-Johnson-Mysteries-4-book-series/dp/B07CQB6YKR#: Charles Dickens Investigations, J. C. Briggs:  https://www.amazon.com/Charles-Dickens-Investigations-11-book-series/dp/B07MPBQLL2 Teddy Roosevelt as detective, Lawrence Alexander:   https://www.amazon.com/Speak-Softly-Theodore-Roosevelt-Mystery/dp/1561290327 Jane Austen as detective, Stephanie Barron:  https://www.goodreads.com/series/40959-jane-austen-mysteries Master of the Closed Door Mystery:  John Dickson Carr:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dickson_Carr#:~ Kel Richards’ G. K. Chesterton mystery: https://www.amazon.com/Murder-Mummys-Tomb-Chesterton-Mystery/dp/1589199634 English humourist P.G. Wodehouse: https://www.wodehouse.co.uk/ Performing Flea, P.G. Wodehouse: https://www.amazon.com.au/Performing-Flea-P-G-Wodehouse/dp/1841591912 J R Tolkien, The Ents:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ent#: The Inklings:  https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Inklings The Eagle and Child pub:  https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/The_Eagle_and_Child The Nazguls: https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Nazg%C3%BBl Bill Ponzini The Nameless Detctive: https://www.fantasticfiction.com/p/bill-pronzini/nameless-detective Raymond Chandler’s Philip Marlowe series: https://www.deadgoodbooks.co.uk/raymond-chandler-philip-marlowe-books-in-order/ The Aussie Bible: https://www.amazon.com.au/Aussie-Bible-Kel-Richards/dp/0647508486 SkyNews, Peta Credin, https://www.skynews.com.au/opinion/peta-credlin Austral English; E.E. Morris https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Australian_National_Dictionary What Kel is reading P.G Wodehouse Mr Mulliner Short Stories: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meet_Mr_Mulliner Why Shoot A Butler, Georgette Heyer: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/311134.Why_Shoot_a_Butler_ Where To Find Kel online: Website:  https://ozwords.com.au/ But now, here’s Kel: Introducing mystery author Kel Richards Jenny Wheeler: , But now here’s Kel. Hello there, Kel, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have with us. Kel Richards: C.S. Lewis Country House mysteries Kel Richards: Nice to be here. Jenny Wheeler: Now you’ve made a real name for yourself as a distinguished Australian journalist and broadcaster and an expert on language, and we’ll to get onto those aspects of your career later on in the show. First of all, though, we want to talk to you about your mystery series, because this is a show for people who love popular fiction. So tell us, how did you get the idea to use an internationally recognized theologian as a mystery detective? Kel Richards: It sprung out of the fact that I like reading really old fashioned clue puzzle murder mysteries from the Golden Age of English murder mysteries, which was between the wars and the twenties and thirties. That’s great stuff. I enjoy reading that because they’re not written and published anymore. Now if you want to write something like that, you really need to write it as a historical detective novel. For some reason it doesn’t work in the 21st century, but as a historical novel it does. And there’s a whole bunch of those being written. It’s become a whole class of crime writing that there are people who have written crime novels in using real historical figures, with people like Dr Johnson as the detective. Lillian de la Torre told a whole series of stories with Dr. Johnson as the detective. Teddy R, Charles Dickens, Jane Austen – all sleuths There have been stories with, people like Teddy Roosevelt when he was the police commissioner in New York as the detective. There’s been at least one, probably more than one with Charles Dickens as the detective. There’ve been several with Jane Austen. There’s a whole series, in fact, I think with Jane Austen. So, I thought about, and I did write one novel years ago, in which GK Chesterton was the detective and I thought, oh, now who would I like to write about in the 1930s, because that’s the kind of book I’m doing. And CS Lewis sprang to mind because I’d been reading Lewis with great pleasure for a great many years. Jenny Wheeler: As you might expect when one of the central characters is a famous theologian, some readers dislike this and comment negatively on it, and others obviously positively like it. You are a declared lay canon in the Anglican Church, so it obviously is a topic close to your heart. How would you go about tackling that? Kel Richards: Well, just by knowing Lewis. One of the things I did when I was starting the series was to read his letters. His letters have been published in I think two or three volumes. And by reading the letters you get the voice of the person. And it was his voice I was interested in more than anything else because there’s stuff that just comes out of him in a particular way, there’s a particular lexicon, a particular vocabulary, a particular structure of sentences. Researching the books in Oxford I learned how that worked and I used that, and the kind of ideas that he kept springing to his mind would go to this. His mind would go to that. So it was from the letters, I got the flow of what the conversation might have been like, and that’s how I said about constructing the character in the books. Jenny Wheeler: You do manage to make the Oxford of that time come alive. have you been to, Oxford, perhaps even study at Oxford yourself? Kel Richards: I never studied at Oxford. It would’ve been nice but that was never possible. But we did go there for a week, six days, something like that. But it was a really busy time and I went there knowing that I was interested in writing the series about Oxford. So we saw all the colleges. We saw Oxford We saw Lewis’s old college, and actually spent a lot of the time in Oxford following in the footsteps of Lewis. So we went to the famous pub that he used to go to the Bird ‘N Baby, as he called it – the Eagle and Child. We met a bloke there. We set this up before we went, who had, when he was a boy, had known Lewis’s son… He was a friend of one of Lewis’s sons, a friend of Douglas, his stepson. He used to go to Lewis’s home, The Kilns. We spent time talking to him about Lewis, and looked at all of those places. When I sat down to write about that, we’d spent enough time there, visiting those places and thinking about that to really bring it vividly to mind. Classic “locked room mysteries” Jenny Wheeler: As we mentioned, they are brain teaser stories. So you set up situations which seem physically impossible. They defy the laws of physics and then you make it all happen. Kel Richards: The master of the Impossible Crime was a man named John Dickson Carr. He was American, but he lived in England and the best of his crime novels were written in the 1930s. His chief detective was Dr. Gideon Fell, who was modeled on GK Chesterton. He developed more than anyone else the idea of the “impossible crime.” The room which is locked on the inside and the keys missing from the door and all the windows are locked from the inside. And the person has been stabbed, not shot, and there’s no weapon in the room or whatever. He does those impossible things and works out sound solutions for them really well. I’d spent a lot of time reading his stuff. I discovered when I set out to write them that the best way to do it was to do it backwards. You work out a really impossible situation that could never have happened, and then work out step by step how you would make that happen. You work backwards. Carr himself said, with an impossible crime, with a locked room mystery, He said, it doesn’t have to be plausible, just possible. The secret: Work it out backwards All you need to do is to work out what might possibly lead up to this. Then of course, when you write the book, though you worked out the puzzle backwards, you write it frontwards, so you use what authors call plants. You keep putting in those things, which are going to when you get to the resolution of the whole thing and the solution of the puzzle, people will say, ah, yes, I should have seen that. Because you were planting them there on through as little hints of who knew what and what this was about and who was where at what time. Putting the plants all in so that you’ve got those and can refer back to them when you get to the solution is the secret to making it look possible, even if not plausible. To set it up. I start at the end. I start with something that looks impossible. Can I tell you about the one that I wrote about G.K. Chesterton, set in Egypt in 1919 and in that one, there is the ultimate locked room mystery, because what happens is they discover an undisturbed, it’s an archeological dig in the south of Egypt near Thebes, near Luxor – and they discover an undisturbed tomb. There’s this tomb dug straight into the cliff face. It’s been filled with limestone chips, which is what they used to do in those days. Then there’s a plaster wall, a ceiling off the tomb itself. They break down the wall and the senior archeologist and his assistant go in and there is a mummy’s sarcophagus. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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One of their own team members. You think, okay, that’s the result I want to get. How do I get to a result like that? That’s what you do. You start at the end and then work backwards to build up to it. Jenny Wheeler: You have to then do a full outline of the stories before you start filling in any detail. In this debate writers have about whether they’re a Plotter or Pantser, you would definitely be at extreme end of the scale? Kel Richards: No one but an idiot writes without a fairly well constructed outline. One of my favorite writers is P.G. Wodehouse. And Wodehouse used to write incredibly complex and detailed outlines before he wrote the first word of the story. He needed to know what was happening, to whom and when and where in a lot of detail. And he used to write outlines that just got longer and longer. He’d end up for a 60, or a 70,000 word book, with a 25,000 word outline. There’s a really good book, which is actually called Performing Flea, which is an exchange of letters between P.G. Wodehouse and one of his friends, Bill Townend in which he talks about the craft of the writer. And what you do as a writer if you are going to have a really well constructed book. And the joy of Wodehouse is that, not only are they some of the funniest books ever written, but they’re architecturally perfect and perfect because they’re set in detail ahead of time. It’s the only way to go. C.S. Lewis was a “clubbable man” Jenny Wheeler: And his friends, they were brilliant men, but do they hold a particular attraction or interest for you? Kel Richards: He was a clubbable man. He belonged to clubs. He belonged to an undergraduate club called The Martinets, and then he started his own club called The Inklings, which included Tolkien and Neville Coghill and a whole bunch of really interesting and colorful people. There’ve been a whole bunch of books which have been biographies of Lewis, which I’ve read obviously, but there’ve been quite a few books written about The Inklings, which is a clever name for a book of authors and would be authors. And they used to meet once a night, once a week, every Wednesday night in Lewis’s rooms at Magdalen. And then they’d read on meet also on Monday mornings at the Eagle and Child at that pub I mentioned. And they were collectively an interesting group of people. Charles Williams joined them during the Second World War. Their books are interesting and collectively they must have been a really interesting bunch. In the last book in the series, I actually describe an Inklings meeting which obviously comes out of my imagination, but it’s on all the very detailed accounts of those Inklings meetings that exist. So yes, as a group, a really interesting group. Inksters a very creative group of writers Jenny Wheeler: Intellectually brilliant as well. Kel Richards: Just very creative people. I think just with very rich imaginations. If you look at Lord of the Rings, the point about Lord of the Rings is Tolkien’s imagination never stops. It goes on and on. Just when you think he can’t possibly imagine anything new or anything inventive suddenly comes up with The Ents or something amazing like that. And the Nazgûls, the same. The richness of the imagination just goes on and on. In fact, no one except J.K. Rowling has managed to, I think, equal that level of constant rich, imaginative invention and that’s just enjoyable. Jenny Wheeler: Have you read the Harry Potter books? Kel Riachards: Oh, yes. Yeah. I read all the Harry Potter books. They’re good fun. Jenny Wheeler: I was intrigued by another of your series., the four books in the Ben Bartholomew series. Here you combine differing scenarios into another multi genre story – a kind of New Testament time travel series. One reader called it Biblical Noir. It’s First century New Testament stories set in contemporary Caesarea with pizza parlours and mobile phones. Where did this come from? Kel Richards: It didn’t start as a series. It started as a single book. I was approached by Hodder and Stoughton for a book because I was on radio and I was well known and they asked me for a book. I don’t know what they expected. Maybe they expected me to write a book about being in the media or something. First century Bible setting with Marlon Brando I’ve got no idea. But I had this strange idea of writing a book about a private eye in Jerusalem in the first century. Which meant that you could use all the sort of slangy stuff from Los Angeles private eyes from Philip Marlow and the rest of them and have a lot of fun with it. But also tell a story from that period of time. I imagined a situation where there was this private eye, this Ben Bartholomew, and after the crucifixion of Jesus, the high priest Caiaphas calls him in and speaking a bit like Marlon Brando in The Godfather says, ‘bring me the body of the Nazarene.’ Having pictured that I then had a story and a plot line. The first book in the series was The Case Of The Vanishing Corpse and to be honest, if I was being really frank, I’d say in order to avoid having to do lots of detailed historical research, I decided to do the books full of deliberate anachronisms so it’s supposedly set in the first century, but a fun version of the first century where 20th century things happen. When there are phone numbers, for example, they’re all in Roman numerals which just looks absurd when you look at it. There’s an advertising slogan for a beer called Achilles, and it says Achilles heels, H-E-A-L-S. I was having a lot of fun with that sort of concept, that I really enjoyed. Jenny Wheeler: Many critics have commented on your humour and I loved some of the hilarious tongue in cheek names you gave people and places…I n Book #2 in the series for example, The Case of the Secret Assassin, cafes and bars are called things like Herod’s Leftovers or Ad Nauseum or Delirium Tremens. Did you have a lot of fun dreaming up these names? Whimsical humour in Wodehouse style Kel Richards: That’s probably the Wodehouse influence. Wodehouse was brilliant at playing with words, and of course he’s my favourite comic writer. There I was writing these books in this anachronistic version of the first century telling a story but having a lot of fun with it. That kind of whimsical humor. That’s the way to describe Wodehouse. Whimsical humor, I ended up writing it. One of the reviewers, I have to say, actually said it was very Wodehousian, and that was the best praise I’ve ever had. Jenny Wheeler: You bend genres in your fiction – something publishers generally don’t much like because they say readers won’t buy them so readily.  Did you come up against that problem? Kel Richards: Some genres are easy because they have really clear flags. The private eye genre I think is really easy. There’s a bloke named Bill Ponzini, who writes a series of private eye novels called the Nameless Series because his central character who narrates them, never has any name in the stories. And they’re just classical examples of that particular genre. I discovered the private eye genre from radio, because I’m old enough to have grown up as a boy listening to radio serials. And there was a private eye called Larry Kent on radio. And he was the classic private eye. The genre and all its telltale signs was there in my head and I didn’t have to work at producing that kind of thing. It was just fun to work with. Never Miss out! 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It would be simple to get them up online and expand your audience. But do you have any interest in doing that? Kel Richards: The copyright belongs to the publishers. The formats they come out in are up to the publishers. Once the author hands over the manuscript, what happens to it is no longer our concern, our control, we lose them. The publisher owns all that. Jenny Wheeler: Publisher’s rights do expire though don’t they? Maybe when that happens, you could put them into digital form. Kel Richards: You are right. They would work like that. Then who knows? Maybe the publisher one day will do them like that. I just don’t know. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve also done a whole series of best selling non-fiction books – dealing mainly with all aspects of language, the origins of famous sayings and Aussie slang. Let’s start by talking about Flash Jim, your biography of a most remarkable early Australian.  Tell us about Flash Jim, the author of the first Australian dictionary and a true crime memoir… James Hardy Vaux – transported three times Kel Richards: As you said, James Hardy Vaux, though how he pronounced his surname, we just don’t know. There are multiple possibilities. I call him Vaux (rhymes with Fox.) So, James Hardy Vaux. He was transported to Australia, not once, not once, but three times. He obviously didn’t notice what he was doing wrong. But he was well educated and he says in his autobiography – he’s written an autobiography, which covers the first 40 years or so of his life – he keeps saying, I needn’t have gone down this path. I could have had a proper middle class career and all that sort of thing. But anyway, he ended up here as a convict. And in 1812, while he was in Newcastle – Newcastle was the place of secondary punishment. If you were sent to Sydney to the convict colony of Sydney and you reoffended, you were sent to Newcastle to suffer even worse punishment. And in Newcastle he had to work on the coal mines, which meant bending double and pushing carts down coal mines and pushing them out again. And he wanted to get out of that. And so what he did, because he was a well-educated person, but he was mixing with professional criminals. He understood their language, whereas the magistrates and the people trying to manage them didn’t understand their language, the criminal slang of London. The first Aussie dictionary of Flash Language What he did was to sit down and write a dictionary, which he called A Dictionary Of The Flash Language. That’s what they called the language. They spoke the Flash language. And he wrote that and presented it to the commandant of the convent colony at Newcastle, hoping that would get him out of the mines and get him a soft job. And it worked. He actually got a job as a clerk in the stores. It worked for him. But it was such an interesting document in and of its own that it ended up being published in London in 1819, so it was the first dictionary written in Australia and for Australians, That’s the really interesting thing about it. A whole lot of the terms in Vaux’s Dictionary Of The Flash Language are still part of our language today. It’s really one of the foundation stones on which the distinctive Australian vocabulary is built, I think. It’s good to tell the story and his own personal story is very colorful and very interesting. I tell that in the book. At the end of the book, I reprint the whole of his dictionary. For me, it was great fun because language, as you said, is my real interest and real passion. Jenny Wheeler: He mainly carried out financial scams?. Kel Richards: He was a thief. He was a pickpocket, he was a fraud. He was a conman. He was a thorough going criminal, one way or another. And I can’t off the top of my head remember which of those crimes he was sent here for the first time. The second time he came back here because he’d managed to get out of the colony illegally, he got himself onto a ship and smuggled overseas. The third time he was actually involved in a massive fraud against the Bank of Ireland, and he should have been executed, because financial fraud of that scale was considered the worst possible thing in Victorian England. But he managed to persuade the people who were prosecuting him to commute his sentence to life in prison in the colonies. Walked out of jail and out of history So that’s how he came out here the third time. But he was a really serious crook. He keeps presenting himself as a reformed character, and I’ve learned my lessons from my life. He never did. Jenny Wheeler: Did he die in Australia? Kel Richards: We have no idea. There is no record of his death. We don’t know where he died, when he died, how he died or where he’s buried. At the point where his autobiography ends, most of the information ends. There’s an Australian academic who’s done a lot of research and has dug up a little bit of information afterwards, but by the time he left jail for the last time he was 60, and at the point where he walks out of jail at the age of 60 he walks off the pages of history and he just vanishes. We have no idea what happened to him. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve also written the Aussie Bible, which was an effort to translate the Bible into language that the normal average Aussie would understand.  I wondered if Aussie language is that far away from official English. And what was the most challenging thing about this project? Kel Richards: I’ll tell you how it started. It started with the Cockney Bible. There was a bloke who was teaching scripture classes in London in the East End. And he tried retelling bible stories using cockney rhyming slain. And the kids that he was teaching finally took to it and understood the stories and thought they were great fun. Some of the stories that he’d done for them were published as a little book called The Cockney Bible (in brackets ‘Well, Bits Of It Anyway,’) I got a review copy of it when I was working in radio. And I thought, oh, this is not bad. This is quite clever. But the Australian language is far better, far more colourful. Aussie dialect ‘most distinctive and colourful’ in world This is the most interesting dialect of the English language anywhere in the world. The most colourful, the most inventive. I thought; I can do the same thing for Australians. I picked out the same kind of Bible stories that he chose, the best known and best loved Bible stories, and retold them in the Australian dialect in our distinctive vocabulary and accent and so on. And it was published as a little book by the Bible Society called the Aussie Bible, (Bits Of It Anyway,) and it did exceptionally well. It sold about 120,000 copies and did so quite quickly. Then there was, I don’t know whether you know this happened, but there was a bloke in New Zealand who got in touch with me and he said, can I do it here? And I said, give it a go. And he wrote the Kiwi Bible (in brackets bits of it anyway) setting out to retell the same bible stories using distinctive kiwi vocabulary. It was a very minor trend in publishing, but it was a little trend in publishing just after the year 2000. Jenny Wheeler:  I have not heard of either of those, but I love your comment about the Aussie colloquial language being particularly vibrant. Kel Richards: It’s to do with the fact that people were gathered in the early convict colony from all over the place. If you look at Great Britain and you looked at it as a map of local dialects, it would be like a patchwork quilt. You only need to go to the next valley, sometimes only to the next village to hear a different choice of words, a different vocabulary, a different accent, a different way of framing sentences. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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They normally didn’t speak to anyone who spoke any differently than they did, except when they were arrested for crimes and sent to the other side of the world. The people who ended up being gathered in Sydney in the early days of the convict colony were from all over the British Isles, and suddenly they were working beside, were quite possibly chained to, people who spoke quite differently from themselves. Now, it had a number of things grew out of that. One of them was the Australian accent, which is produced as a result of what is called leveling down. They had to find a way to talk to each other so they understood each other, but it also started the generation of the distinctive Australian vocabulary because they discovered there were all these different names for things. Now apart from anything else, apart from giving you a richer, larger vocabulary, it makes you very aware of language and they grew an inventiveness in language, which is still part of the Australian language today. If you go to Queensland and a farm’s got a really hard gate to open and close, it’s called a ‘Methodist gate’ because only a Methodist could open and close it without swearing. It’s like leftovers. Leftovers are called YMCA. Yesterday’s Muck, Cooked Again. There’s a lot of this sort of stuff and it’s just inventiveness. And I think it grew right from the beginning. By the 1830s, there’s evidence that the Australian language as we know it today already existed and was flourishing and spread across the east coast of Australia and I think it grew out of that initial convict experience. Don’t try ‘hooning around’ Jenny Wheeler: That’s interesting because I grew up in the rural countryside on New Zealand and the fifties and sixties. And there were a lot of sayings that my parents said that I thought were Kiwi sayings. And when I grew older and became more aware of language, I discovered they were actually Australian sayings that had been adopted here in New Zealand as well. Kel Richards: You are right. There was a common body of language common to both Australia and New Zealand because we have so much shared language. An example of that is the word Hoon. There was a bloke who was driving with an English visitor and someone cut in front of him. He said, “what a hoon.” The Englishman had no idea what he was talking about. Not the faintest idea, but hoon, for that kind of hooning behavior and hooning driving, that’s common in Australia and just as common in New Zealand. And the very first proper dictionary, not Vaux’s dictionary, but proper Dictionary of The Australian language was done by a bloke named E. E. Morris at the University of Melbourne. And he called it the Austral Dictionary because he covered both Australian English and New Zealand English in the one book. So there is a very close connection. Kel Richards’ early Sydney life Jenny Wheeler: Tell us a bit about your early life. Where did you grow up? And did you always know that you would be a writer? Kel Richards: I’ve got no idea. I suppose I loved books from when I was a child. Always have done, I grew up in suburban Sydney. My father was a railway engineer. It was a fairly ordinary, middle class Australian Sydney upbringing. But I was always a bookish person and always interested in books. And I think I was from the beginning keen to write books. I’ve written a lot of books now. If I add them all up, if I do a complete bibliography, if you include all the booklets and all the different editions of books, it comes up to about 64. If you take out the booklets and the different editions, it’s about 54, one way or another with children’s books and with books about words and language and fiction and all the rest of it. It’s a lot of books, so I just think I always was a bookish person. I wasn’t a football playing person. I was a bookish person. Again, I just wanted to do it from when I was young. And the path to get into broadcasting in those days was you work at a small country radio station and work your way up to City Radio. And I just did that. I just kept sending out applications. And eventually I got a job in country radio and then another job in country radio, and then another one, and eventually got to the city and worked for the ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) with nationally networked programsat one stage ‘Aren’t we the lucky ones?’ In that sense, I’ve never had a proper job. I’ve been basically a journalist all my life, but I’ve been a radio and television journalist. And I keep saying to people, there’s no point in working for a living. I was walking down the corridors of a Sydney radio station, 2GB one day, and one of my colleagues, a bloke named John, had been around for a long time. “Kel,” he said, “I’ve just read that only 15% of Australians enjoy the work they’re doing.” Then he punched me on the shoulder and said, “Aren’t we the lucky ones?” It’s just fun to do. It’s just really enjoyable to do. Jenny Wheeler: And you’re still doing it, aren’t you? Because although you stepped back from full-time broadcasting some time ago, you’re still doing a regular and very much current affairs column for SkyNews in Sydney, as well as your regular Word Watch commentaries? Kel Richards: I haven’t retired. I’m just doing less because I’m slowing down. I’m not retired, just slowing down. I’m probably working about half a week, I do a regular five minute spot with Peta Credlin on Sky News, and then I do other bits on Sky News occasionally as a panelist on various panel programs. I do a one hour weekly talkback show about words and language called the Word Clinic, which is on 2GB in Sydney. 4BC in Brisbane, and the Nine Radio. Network. I do a spot for a Perth radio station. Once a week I write a column on language for the Australian Spectator. Once a week I write two small columns for a magazine called Australian Geographic. What Kel is reading now So I’m keeping busy and one of the reasons I do that is the work is just so enjoyable. Now, because I pick and choose what I do, I’m mostly doing things about language and as a journalistic specialty language is just wonderful. There was an American journalist named William Safire who wrote a column called On Language for The New York Times for about 25 years. It is just an endlessly interesting area because the English language is a river, not a lake. It is changing all the time and just watching it and being aware of that and following what’s going on and finding the origins of common expressions that we used, that is just endlessly entertaining. So what I’m doing by keeping on working at least part of the time, is just keeping myself entertained. Jenny Wheeler: Tell us about your reading tastes. What are you reading at the moment and what would you like to recommend to our listeners? Kel Richards: I’ve usually got several books going at a time, three or four or five books going at a time. Then I can read a chapter out of whatever I’m in the mood for. I’ve just read a biography of William F. Buckley, Jr, an American journalist, magazine, publisher, commentator, very interesting and colorful man, and a very good writer. I read books about words and language almost constantly. I’m reading a book at the moment called Johnson’s Dictionary, A Modern Selection, and it’s a paperback, which is selections out of Johnson’s 1755 dictionary. That’s fascinating. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} P.G.Wodehouse – at the top of the list I’m reading, what else am I reading? I’m reading a P.G Wodehouse book of short stories, Meeting Mr. Mullins. I’ve got a range of books going at any one time. There’s always one or two of them about language and then the others could be a bit of light fiction, which I read just because that’s how to get to sleep at night. It’s really relaxing and biographies and I’ve just got a huge range of interests And I just one of the things that I can do, seeing I’m not working full time anymore, is read more and I do. I like hard copies. I can’t read off a screen. It’s not right for me. Jenny Wheeler: Tell us about the light fiction that you are reading at the moment. Kel Richards: Oh at the top of the list for light fiction is Wodehouse. Wodehouse  is wonderful. If anyone hasn’t read any Wodehouse., you haven’t enriched your life to be honest. Evelyn Waugh called P.G. Wodehouse the master on the basis that Wodehouse came up with an average of two completely original similes on every page. Now, Waugh is right. He’s that sort of writer. If you haven’t read any Wodehouse. In the Wodehouse stories, aunts are always the villains. The poor Bertie Wooster has always been put upon by aunts to do things he doesn’t want to do, like presenting the Sunday School prizes or something. So they’re always the villains. Aunts ‘mastodons bellowing across a primeval swamp’ And in one, one of the stories there is Bertie at a country house and on the big front lawn of the country house. Two of his aunts, Aunt Dahlia and one of the other aunts are calling out to each other. And the way Wodehouse describes it is it was “aunt calling to aunt like mastodons bellowing across a primeval swamp.” Now that is just very good writing and in one story Bertie Wooster is trying to get in to see an important businessman. And there’s one of these secretaries who is really tough who won’t let him in, and he says she was one of those ice cold secretaries only Genghis Khan would dare to cross, and he only on one of his better days. Now that’s the sort of writing, which is just wonderful. If I’m not reading Wodehouse, and I read Woodhouse a lot, then I still like those old fashioned clue puzzle murder mysteries. I don’t mind re-reading Agatha Christie or re-reading John Dickson Carr, or any of those detective novels written in that Golden Age, the 1920s, thirties, whatever. Georgette Heyer, who was really well known for her regency romances, but a lot of people don’t know she also wrote some very good detective novels set in that era. Why Shoot A Butler? Indeed… She wrote them in that era, and I read one of those recently. Why Shoot A Butler? It’s a great name for a book from that era. That’s the kind of light fiction that I read. Jenny Wheeler: Are you writing any fiction yourself at the moment? Kel Richards: Not writing any fiction at the moment. I’m working on a book called How to Write Clear English, and if I can find a publisher for that, I’ll be very pleased. Although I tell you what I did do at one stage because I grew up as a boy really loving the Sherlock Holmes stories. I have written some Sherlock Holmes Pastiche stories. And there’s a whole little market for that now. It’s a particular genre in the world and there’s an American publisher who specializes in publishing nothing but new Sherlock Holmes story. Sherlock Holmes Pastiche. So I’ve sent him a book. I sent him a book some time ago. It’s still something sitting on his desk and whether it ever gets published or not. I don’t know. That’s the only fiction that I’ve had anything to do with recently. I’ve been mainly working on nonfiction, so I spent ages working on the Vaux book. And then I’ve spent a long time writing this book on how to write clear English, which I think I’m finally getting towards the end of. Where to find Kel Richards online Jenny Wheeler: Where can readers find you online? Kel Richards: Ah, thank you for the opportunity because this is really good. This is good stuff. You’ll like this. I run a website called Ozwords.com au. OZ words com au. Now what I do is I write a language column every day. Seven days a week that appears on the front page of that. As well as that, I run a newsletter and you get the language column turning up in your inbox if you’d like to get it for nothing. And there’s a contact page, so you can send me any comment question, whatever you’d like. And the best comments in questions and my answers turn up on the Q. and A. page. In fact, the best part of the whole website is the Q and A page because people ask terrific questions about, someone asked me recently about under the pump. Why do we talk about someone who’s under pressure being under the pump? It’s a really good question, and in fact, it turns out the experts don’t know, but they’ve got multiple guesses. It’s just a completely interesting area. And I do this Oz words.com au every single day correspond with readers of the website every day. By all means, have a look at the website and if you find language interesting, you’ll love it. And if you want to, get in touch. Kel’s ‘Best job ever…’ And the best job I’ve ever had in my entire life? The best job is being grandpa and we have a couple of little grandsons and they are just adorably cute. They’re the best looking. Two little boys. There’s a 4-year-old and a 6-year-old, best looking 4-year-old and 6-year-old in Sydney. And the smartest, and I speak with totally impartial judgment on that. And they’re wonderful and they come over and come for a sleepover and we spend time with them. So there’s lots of other things happening as well. Jenny Wheeler: Sounds wonderful Kel. I’m stunned with your erudition. It’s been great fun talking and thank you for coming on the show. Kel Richards: My pleasure. If you enjoyed Kel you might also enjoy… Patti Callahan, and her books about C.S. Lewis tragic love. Or Stephanie Barron’s Jane Austen mysteries… Both on past Joys of Binge Reading episodes…. If you enjoyed Kel, you might also enjoy hearing Pattie Callahan’s Narnia Magic – her series of books dealing with C.S. Lewis and his tragic love for American author Joy Davidman. Patti has devoted seven years of her life to researching the remarkable relationship between C S Lewis and his American wife, Joy Davidman. Her dedication produced two best-selling books, the first, Becoming Mrs Lewis, tells the story of the precious years of love and marriage the two authors shared before they were separated by Joy’s early death. The second, Once Upon a Wardrobe, delves into the inspiration behind the magical Narnia children’s series. LISTEN TO PATTI CALLAHAN Or if you’re into mysteries, listen to Stephanie Barron and her Jane Austen mysteries: Stephanie Barron’s popular Jane Austen mysteries feature the famous novelist as a crime investigator and are so close to real life that Stephanie sometimes hears Jane’s voice in her head as she writes. Hi there, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler and today Stephanie talks about channelling Jane Austen, World War II espionage novels, and That Churchill Woman. LISTEN TO STEPHANIE BARRON Next Time on Binge Reading Next Time on Binge Reading – Irish magic from Jennifer Deibel –   the best- selling and award-winning author of a series of charming Emerald Isle stories combining history, family faith and romance. Her newest book, The Irish Matchmaker…introduces matchmaker Catriona Daly. As daughter of a well-known matchmaker, Catríona Daly is no stranger to the business of love–and sees it as her ticket away from the sleepy village that only comes alive during the annual matchmaking festival. She has some ideas for herself, but she has to be very patient to see it all work together. That’s next time – two weeks from today – on the Binge Reading show And remember – if you enjoy the show. Leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time, and Happy Reading!

What if you could take a vacation on your marriage and for six months, pursue a lifetime dream your husband doesn’t share? And he could do the same. That’s the premise for Lian Dolan’s latest book, The Marriage Sabbatical. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler and today Lian, the author of the popular The Sweeney Sisters and Lost And Found In Paris is quick to make clear that the central premise of the marriage sabbatical does not come from personal experience. She jokes her life is ‘just not that interesting.’ But on today’s Binge Reading show, she talks about how she came to write a fascinating tale of marriage veterans of 23 years who take holidays apart for the first time in their lives because of their wildly clashing personal interests, and discover new things about themselves and their love for each other. Book Giveaways But before we get to Lian, be assured. We’ve got our usual free book giveaways this week. It’s open season on freebie thrillers. Searching for an action-packed thrill ride or a twisty whodunnit?? Look no further! These mystery, thriller, and suspense writers have teamed up to bring you these FREE books! Scoop them up today! DOWNLOAD FREEBIE MYSTERIES And we also have a promo on Kobo. If you’re a Kobo follower, there’s a free download of the Of Gold & Blood Book Bundle Two, Books #1 and #4, and lots of other great authors to choose from in a ‘free first in series’ promo in all genres…. Romance – Space Opera – Mysteries & Thrillers- Sci Fi * Fantasy – Young Adult – Urban Fantasy kobo free first in series – all genres THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL OFFERING – If you live in a country that isn’t included in this promotion, you may have trouble accessing the sale link. If this happens, change the flag at the top of the Kobo homepage to one of the included countries to see the sale link properly. Buy Me A Coffee And a reminder. You can help defray the costs of the show by buying me a cup of coffee on buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx. If you enjoy the show, do leave us a review, so others will find us. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show, and great books. they will love to read. Links to things discussed in the show Ali Macgraw: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_MacGraw Love Story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Story_(1970_film) ALS: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/amyotrophic-lateral-sclerosis/symptoms-causes/syc-20354022 Dervla McTiernan: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/16918766.Dervla_McTiernan Maeve Binchy: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3532.Maeve_Binchy Kate Elizabeth Russell (My Dark Vanessa) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/44890081-my-dark-vanessa Donna Tartt The Secret History: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29044.The_Secret_History The Satellite Sisters: https://satellitesisters.com/podcast/ The Sweeney Sisters, Lian Dolan: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/49978226-the-sweeney-sisters Helen of Pasadena by Lian Dolan: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/8882001-helen-of-pasadena Where to find Lian Dolan online Website: liandolan.com Facebook: @liandolan Satellite Sisters podcast: https://satellitesisters.com/podcast/ Introducing author Lian Dolan Lian Dolan – women’s fiction with humor and heart But now here is Lian. Hello there, Lian, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Lian Dolan: Thank you so much. I’m really excited to be here and do this conversation with you. I’ve loved listening to a lot of your podcasts and I’m pleased to see so many of my friends on your shows. That was fun to discover them. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. The Marriage Sabbatical, which is your latest book is what we are discussing today. It’s quite newly published, isn’t it? Lian Dolan: Yes, just out. I’m excited to have it out. The writing process is a long one and the development process was long and then it’s a year in production, I’m excited to be out and about with it, because I feel like I’ve been talking about it for years, but really it’s just out. Jenny Wheeler: And as the title indicates it’s about a couple who spend some time apart, happily married in a marriage that’s very much settled into a routine. You like to make it really clear in the acknowledgements for the book that it’s not a personal story. Tell us about that. Lian Dolan: I think one of the big myths of writing is when people who are non-writers say, ‘oh, write about what you know.’ A Gen X couple on a different journey And honestly, I’m out material by book six. This is my sixth book. My life is not that interesting. I need to make stuff up. The book is the story of a couple that’s a Gen X couple. They’re approaching 50 or just over 50. They’ve been married for 23 years. They’ve just been through the Pandemic. They have a couple of college aged kids that are going off to their study abroad program and he, the husband, has the opportunity to take a sabbatical. His work is giving him a year off, and they decide to do this adventure trip through Patagonia. And then the wife decides ‘that is your dream. But it is not my dream.’ And so long story short, they come up with a compromise position. And that’s okay. we’re going to go our separate ways for eight months. You can do anything you want with anyone, no questions asked So it’s a breaking of their marriage vows and it’s a different journey that they didn’t expect to be on. That of course is very different than my own marriage. We’ve been married 31 years, no sabbaticals, no agreements. It’s hard to write about what is ostensibly a pretty good marriage? It’s not that fascinating a topic. So ooh, we ran errands on Saturday and then we had chicken for dinner. I had to fish around for something to happen, to kinda shake ’em both up and that was it. Learning the art of compromise Jenny Wheeler: At the beginning, Nicole is really reluctant to admit to her husband that she doesn’t want to go because they’ve got a long way up the track with him just assuming she was going to love everything he loved That scene where she finds the courage to tell him she doesn’t want to come and then sticks to her guns, that’s one a lot of women can identify with, I’m sure. Lian Dolan: Yes I think we get dragged into our partner’s interests whether we want to or not. And sometimes it’s benign. Like when I married my husband, all of a sudden I had to watch Formula One races at four in the morning, because he was a lifelong fan. And he had to learn how to ski. He had not grown up as a skier. We had those are fairly low stakes entries. But I think when you start to talk about like adventure travel or let’s sell everything we have and drive around in an RV, then you’re ask yourself do I really want to do that? And for Nicole… She is really banking on the fact that as the book takes place, at the very edge of the pandemic, people are just starting to travel again. For us here in the United States, we had so many opportunities where we thought the pandemic was over and then it was back and it was over and it was back. I think she’s hoping the whole time it’s going to get canceled. Learning to see things from the other side Like that was how I envisioned Nicole. Oh, this is never gonna happen. There’s gonna be another surge. I won’t have to go to Patagonia and ride around on a motorcycle in a windy, country. So two countries. So that’s what she’s banking on and it does not work out. She actually looks like she has to go. Jenny Wheeler: Now in terms of the research, because as you say, you haven’t had a sabbatical yourself, in the acknowledgements again you credited a pal with sending you gobs of reading material that helped you to get some of the research. And I wondered what was the hardest part about thinking yourself into this book? Lian Dolan: It was definitely a point of discomfort for me as a person. I don’t really think having a relationship with someone outside your marriage is a great idea. I’ll just say it. It’s not something I really go for. As you write more and more books and the older you get, and I would look around at other people’s marriages and I’d think something’s happening over there. Like they have some sort of an agreement. And I think I had to peel back my personal judgment. That was the hardest part of writing a book about something that, you know, morally. It was a gray area, but it was not a gray area for me. It was black and white. So my friend that you referred to, Daniela is a marriage and family counselor. And I wanted to be able to have a background and ask about women who make this choice, or how do couples, survive this? What do open relationships look like and do those actually work or do those all implode? Important we like the main characters She sent me tons of books on that. But it was important to me that you buy into this couple, Jason and Nicole, that you like them and that you’re like onboard with this choice, even if it’s a choice you wouldn’t make. And so I really worked hard. With any book you do a bunch of research, but then you have to put it aside and you have to focus in on the character journey. I really worked hard on the first a hundred pages before they separate and go on their separate sabbaticals to make the characters likable. I want readers to be  invested in both of them. You’re rooting for both of them. There’s not a bad guy or a good guy. There’s just a couple that’s struggling to find themselves again after 25 years of marriage. Jenny Wheeler: Jason does go off to Patagonia and follows his adventure dream, which is partly actually related to a very good friend of his, Charlie, who’s died. It’s not necessarily even Jason’s personal dream. It’s more of a kind of pact that he had with a friend who’s now dead. So that’s an added complication. But Nicole, she decides that she would love to just go to somewhere like Santa Fe and do an art course and work in jewelry or something like that, something totally different. And you take her to Santa Fe and she meets a whole cast of interesting new friends, including Cleo Jones. Now tell us a bit about the inspiration for the Cleo character in this story. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Ali McGraw and Santa Fe magic Lian Dolan: I did a research trip to Santa Fe. I had been there decades ago when I was in college and hadn’t been since. It’s a spectacular spot in America. It’s in New Mexico. It’s 7,500 feet, so it’s very high. Thin air, exquisite architecture. It’s the second biggest art market in the United States, outside of New York, in terms of fine art. They’ve got fantastic food. It’s just a great mix of cultures. It’s almost like it’s its own separate place and it has this real spiritual vibe and that comes from the natural beauty. And in the middle of that lives Ali MacGraw. Okay. Perfect. Ali MacGraw, Love Story Ali MacGraw. We were there, my husband and I, and we were waiting to go into the Georgia O’Keefe Museum and we just ducked into a coffee shop. I looked up and there is Ali MacGraw coming through the door. And can I tell you, she is still magnificent. She was full Ali. Oh my gosh. She had the long braids and the big silver statement jewelry and a white linen shirt and jeans. And she had Birkenstocks on, like white Birkenstocks and her toenails were painted blue. And big silver cuffs. I couldn’t speak. And there’s my husband just making chitchat with a pretty old lady, like about the coffee and when she left. I was like. Do you know who that was? And he says no. I say that’s Ali MacGraw. And there was a blank look of course. And I was like, Steve McQueen. She was with Steve McQueen and all of a sudden it came back to him. Cleo Jones – an Ali inspired character But I just thought she represented so much about the city that’s fascinating. But also, I just love writing older female characters who have a past that is pretty hot. Ali had a hot past. She was the actress, she was with interesting men. She did the first yoga tape that revolutionized it. And she’s been in Santa Fe for 30 years where she is beloved. She’s a great patron of the arts and many other causes there. And she just was so inspiring to me that I said Nicole has to meet someone like Ali. So I created the character of Cleo Jones and they become friends and eventually business partners. But it was all because of that coffee shop. She’s still Ali. She’s unbelievable. What a role model. Jenny Wheeler: That’s gorgeous. And the Patagonia part of it? Now, you weren’t going to go and research that on a motorcycle, so how did you get the inside story on Jason’s part of the adventure? Lian Dolan: I have two older sisters, Liz and Julie, that enjoy many things I don’t. One of which is adventure travel, the other’s hiking, and the other is wind. Windy countries. And they went on a hiking trip in Patagonia four years ago and they came back and they told me all about it, and I’m like, that sounds like my worst nightmare. Not made for motorbikes in Patagonia In a million years, I would never want to go on a trip like that. I’m sure it was gorgeous. I love looking at their photos and hearing their stories. But no thanks. And that stuck in my head. And then I had another friend whose husband did a very similar motorcycle trip when he turned 60. He drove from America all the way down, had his motorcycle, did his thing, was gone for months. I had to think of what’s the least likely trip that Nicole would want to do? And I had to make the story work, I had to get Jason out of Europe, because that’s too easy to reach. He needed to be out of cell phone distance. That was part of the thing, that they weren’t going to call each other a lot. There was a cutoff of communication. And so Patagonia worked on all those levels. So that’s why I thought this is a trip I would never want to do. So yes, Nicole is me on that one. Jenny Wheeler: Now you mentioned the sisters and sisters have played a huge role in your life. Not only is one of the more recent books, I think the one before this was one called The Sweeney Sisters, but you’ve had a long running podcast with two of your other sisters. Tell us a little bit about that podcast. 23 years? You must have been a baby when you started it! Pioneering the Satellite Sisters show Lian Dolan: I am the baby of the family, which I often remind them. That makes me the youngest. We started Satellite Sisters as a radio show, actually pre podcast in 2000. And it was all five Dolan girls at the time. Five real sisters who lived all over the world, did a show about the things going on in our lives and the things going on in the news and what we were reading and talking about. And at one point the show was on live here in America six days a week for three hours a day. We just talked and talked. We talk about anything. Anything, Jenny, anything. And in 2008 we turned the show into a podcast and we’re one of the first podcasts out there. We won a Podcast Pioneer Award a couple of years ago. Our show was really focused on the lives of women and the things that are important to women. The things that don’t necessarily make the front news. American radio is filled with people just yelling and screaming about politics or sports, and you have to have an immediate opinion on every small, tiny detail that takes place in the political sphere or the sports sphere or blue versus red. And we just thought women, they don’t live their lives like that. They live their lives talking to each other. They can have differences, be different party affiliations and still hav, funny conversations that are meaningful and informative. And so that was always our goal and we’ve loved doing the show. It’s been an extraordinary experience. Social media has meant that our reach has extended beyond the United States, and we’re able to communicate with people and create a real global sisterhood that we just did not anticipate in 1999 when we pitched the show idea. A sisterhood novel – The Sweeney Sisters Jenny Wheeler: We will have a link in the show notes, this episode of them, so people can pick up on those podcast episodes going right back. If they want to, they’re still live aren’t they? Lian Dolan: Oh yeah, we have thousands. Literally. We ended production of new stuff essentially in December of 23 after 23 years. But we’re even still reposting and re-editing and doing all kinds of things. But our whole back catalog is up on most podcast platforms. Jenny Wheeler: The book, The Sweeney Sisters is three sisters who have of unexpected revelations when. Dad who’s a – I think he’s a Nobel Prize winning author, isn’t he? In the book? He’s certainly a very high status literary author – and he dies. Tell us about that. And it really comes through, I think, that you have sisters yourself in that book. There’s a real feeling for sisterhood there. Tell us about it. Lian Dolan: You know what? You nailed it. That’s what I was going for. That was my fourth novel, and I hadn’t really written about sisters in the first three, because you know what? I’m sick of my sisters sometimes. I thought up till then, I’m going to write a book. It’s not going to be about them. I say that with love. They can write their own books. But I did feel like after the first three, I was ready to write a book with a trio of female leads. There’s actually a fourth one that shows up. And what I was trying to go for was the idea that not all sister relationships (are the way they are portrayed.) In a lot of media pop culture books, they’re either super saccharin, like huggy kissy all the time, super supportive, or they’re just warring, they have nothing in common and they’re bitter enemies. The disruption done by DNA tests And I think about 90% of sister relationships live in the middle of that. Sometimes you’re supportive, sometimes you’re warring, but if you have a common sense of humor, I think that can really get you through a lot of that. So that was my idea, was to write a book about sisterhood. The sisters in the book are younger than my sisters, they don’t line up, they’re not my actual sisters. Again, that’s not how books work. But I did try to capture that feeling of sisterhood that we’ve had. Even if you don’t talk to your sister for six months, you’re still there for her. And when things get bad, they’re there for you and you can have very different lives, but there’s this common connection. And so that’s what I was trying to capture with The Sweeney Sisters. It’s also said in my hometown in Connecticut. So that was fun too. I had never done that before. Jenny Wheeler: It taps into the zeitgeist, as you say, in one of the blurbs, of 23 and me and ancestry.com, and as people can probably guess, one of the unexpected surprises is revealed by a DNA test. You raise the question of what makes a family, and it did occur to me. Have you had a DNA test yourself? Do you have any personal experience of DNA in your family? Lian Dolan: I think I’m the only one that actually has had a DNA test. But I have had plenty of friends have this experience and when I cooked up the idea for the book, it was right when they were starting to market those Ancestry and 23 and Me tests like fun family holiday gifts, Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Really. Wasn’t that fun? And I remember reading a couple of stories and one of which was on our Satellite Sisters Facebook group. It was a photo of a woman in her fifties with two men in their fifties. And the headline was ‘I met my brother today.’ I’m not going into details, but here we all are. And we have a really nice group over at Satellite Sisters. It’s the nicest corner of the internet, so everyone was like, oh, thumbs up. Oh, that sounds great. Oh, congratulations. And I’m thinking. That sounds terrible. The last thing in the world I want is another sibling. I have seven. I have four sisters and three brothers. I also never, ever want to think about my parents’ sex life. We have not had any surprises, but for that book tour, there was not a single event I did where at least one person didn’t come up to me and say, oh, this has recently happened to me. Something very similar. So I think it’s very common, thanks to that fun over the counter DNA test. But I took mine recently and I think the biggest surprise for me was that my father’s family is all Irish. Dolan, Lee and Dolan. But my mom’s family, we thought was German. They weren’t German. They were Irish too. I dunno, she said for years, oh no, we’re not Irish. That’s the Irish syndrome. We don’t have that. Whatever that was. (I discovered) I have not one tiny speck of German in me., I’m 88% Irish and 3% Viking I think. And, a little bit of English. So why would she lie about that? We don’t know. For some, identities turned inside out Jenny Wheeler: When I was reading The Sweeney Sisters and I saw some comments online from people saying, I would never take a DNA test. It’s just so terrible and all that sort of  thing. I must admit I had one done years ago, and for a similar reason to you actually, we had an oral history in our family going back on my mother’s side, that we were descended from three artists in Renaissance Italy. And this sounded so fascinating that I wanted to prove there were some Italian there. And actually what happened is that at the beginning, absolutely not. I think the closest thing was 2% Iberian. Then the database updated and improved. I’m now 8% Tuscan, so I’m fully satisfied! Lian Dolan: Oh my gosh. You are Michelangelo’s great-great-great-great granddaughter. Amazing. I am descended from – what I loved with the US census – we are descended from uneducated laborers. There is nobody fancy in our family tree. Nobody, they came, they could not read, at least they could speak English. That was it. Yeah, it’s pretty fascinating, but it’s also really devastating. People told me really heartfelt stories, like really stunning talk about turning your identity inside out. I think that’s why for me, writing The Sweeney Sisters, the three sisters were super easy to write. It was the fourth sister, the new one. That I really had to dig deep for because A, she was an only child, which is an experience I don’t understand. And then B, her identity was really turned completely inside out. I had to really get inside the head of people that had that experience. I did a bunch of interviews and did a lot of reading about that to understand exactly what that’s like. Helen of Pasadena – a remarkable debut Jenny Wheeler: Your first book was called Helen of Pasadena, and at the beginning I thought it might have been historical because that sounds like a slightly historical topic title, but it was very definitely contemporary and it went to the top of the LA Times best seller book list, a debut novel, top of the LA Best Seller list. How did you do that? Lian Dolan: Yeah. It was just a charmed publishing story. From the beginning, it is a great story. It was my first novel, Helen of Pasadena. It’s contemporary, but it does have a Helen of Troy motif. So there is a hot archaeologist in it and references to Troy, FYI. And I had a fancy agent in New York at that time and she rejected me. She rejected the book. She didn’t want to rep it. It was the Global Financial Crisis. 2009. Things look grim. So I turned to my neighbor, who ran a small press in Los Angeles doing travel and food books. And I said, can you just read this because I have to go find a new agent and I don’t even know if it’s worth publishing. And she read it. She was going through breast cancer treatment at the time, so she said I’ll be home all weekend after chemo. She read it and called me Monday and said, I want to publish this. She had never published fiction. It was not my alternative. I wasn’t trying to trick her or anything. So long story short, we knew almost nothing about publishing fiction, but we just stormed ahead and she was very connected in the Los Angeles world. And most book publishers are in New York in America and they just don’t understand the West Coast, but she really did. And the book came out and it was an immediate instant sensation. All the good stuff happens in transition It was a social satire. I spoke at every single book club, every single women’s organization for a year. I did over a hundred appearances. It just caught fire because I think particularly Angelinos, they liked to read about themselves and it was fun and sexy and uplifting and it was an extraordinary experience, because that so rarely happens. Small press. Top of the list. I couldn’t believe it. Every week, when it just kept showing up. But it was all those book clubs, it was word of mouth and women loved it. And that book, someone talks to me about it every single week. It was published 13 years ago and still, someone mentions it to me every week. So it’s nice. It’s a very charmed first book story. Jenny Wheeler: There’s a theme with your books as I’ve looked at them. They’re about successful American women, people who look as if they’re successful. They might have a husband who’s got a good job, they’ve got a nice house, but there’s always a little bit of a worm in the apple somewhere. And that seems to be an underlying theme of maybe your own life, what you observe around you. Tell us a bit about that. What fascinates you about that worm in the apple feeling? Lian Dolan: I think all the good stuff, the learning, is in the transitions. I don’t know. Do you really want to read about perfect people? Not really. The less than perfect life It’s not that much fun to write about perfect people. I don’t really want to read about it.  I think it’s years of doing the radio show. We talked to hundreds and hundreds of women about the transitions in their lives, and that’s what I mean. There’s the news headlines on page one, but it’s the first year of widowhood, the first year of new motherhood, the year after my husband left me, dealing with the grief of losing a child. That’s where the meat is and the heart is, and that’s where women’s lives become interesting. And they go through a moment where they can’t go back again to their old life. And that is very interesting to me. So even though the people might have a Pasha dress they’re going through a divorce or there’s some loss in their history. With The Sweeney Sisters, The father was imperfect and the mother dies young. And that sounds all very grim, but I try to infuse it with humor, but I think that’s where the good stuff is, and I like that people read the books and have the experience like, oh gosh, I read that book after my divorce and it really helped me. Helen Of Pasadena, she’s a widow and she has to completely reinvent her life. And that, I heard from a lot of widows all over the place, that was a big deal. I like that. It’s so juicy, the material in those transitions. A dark and deep personal experience Jenny Wheeler: You were great at turning the humor view on things but you have had your own rather deep and dark experiences, which you’ve written about in one of your humor columns. I’m referring to the test that showed that you were in danger of colon cancer. Tell us a little bit about that. That must have been a bit of a watershed moment for you. Lian Dolan: Yeah, it was. I was in fact diagnosed with colon cancer, so I went to get my first colonoscopy, and that’s traumatic for a lot of people. And I had put it off, not because I was thinking, oh, the prep, I was thinking, oh, I don’t want to go under anaesthesia. I had a weird fear of anaesthesia. And I have a good friend, a Satellite Sister, college friend, who texted me like, once a month for a year. Have you made your appointment yet? Have you made your appointment yet? And I was like, fine, I’ll make the appointment. And even at the end, I almost canceled because I was nervous and I was like, Ugh, if I have to face Kara and tell her I didn’t make my appointment, she’s gonna kill me. So I went and lo and behold, there was a polyp, but they said nothing to worry about. And then a week later, the doctor called and said, oh, in fact it’s cancer. You have colon cancer. And it was such a shock to me. I was so shocked. I thought, oh, there’s a whole host of other horrible diseases I’m gonna get, my dad died of Alzheimer’s and we have Parkinson’s and ALS, we have terrible things in our family, but we don’t actually have a lot of cancer. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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I was lucky that they caught it early. It was a surgical solution. I’m four and a half years out. I’ve had clean scans ever since, but it really does (change things). There’s a day before you have cancer and then there’s the next day. You can’t go back again. It’s almost like fiction. I think back on that Friday before I got the call from the doctor, I was feeling great and then the next Monday I had cancer. And I think back on that last weekend? Boy, that was the last weekend of my previous life and now I have this other life. But trying to find a way to talk, to write about colon cancer in a humorous way was hard. That’s where I took time to process. I relied on years of writing columns. I’ve been an essayist for years. And still I really had to work hard to find the funny in that, but also make people aware go get those colonoscopies. They literally saved my life Jenny Wheeler: You do mention in that column that if you’d left it six months later, you might not have had such a good outcome. Lian Dolan: Yes, that’s true. And that’s the only time I cried when the doctor told me that. I’m not a huge crier. I didn’t lose it a lot after the diagnosis, but when he told me that, because a hundred percent I could have left it six months, a hundred percent. I could have talked myself out of that test. I’m just eternally grateful for my friend, for bugging me and for having good medical care and a great team of doctors and nurses. Long term goals – and has Lian reached them yet? Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Let’s take a look at your wider career. What was your goal when you first started writing fiction, and have you realized it yet? Lian Dolan: Oh, that’s a good question. There’s no joy like writing your first novel because you just don’t think anyone’s ever going to read it. You just have the idea that you’re going to find an agent and find a publisher. That your neighbors might read it. I felt like I had a book in me and it had been there for a while and I finally had to get it out, so I really thought. Oh, I’ll write this book. I had no long-term plans. I certainly didn’t anticipate (what happened). I just turned in my seventh book. I didn’t anticipate this. I had been a working writer before, working in different media. Fiction seems so hard and so challenging to me. I was just happy to have that first book out and have that fantastic experience. One of the reasons I had to scale back on the podcast and not do Satellite Sisters anymore was I was like, you know what? I’d really like to focus just on writing. Now I’ve been doing this crazy dual career with talking Monday and Tuesday and writing Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, and Saturday and Sunday if I need to. And if I could just write, whoa what would that look like? So that’s what I’m doing this year. But I do think it’s amazing that I’ve churn out so many novels that there are so many stories inside of me. I didn’t know there would be that many. Fascinated by the story of Helen of Troy Jenny Wheeler: What made you decide you wanted to do that very first book? Lian Dolan: Like a lot of writers. I was a huge reader growing up and then remained a reader and loved stories and loved storytelling. The work that I was doing, the talking and the magazine writing, that was nonfiction, but I just thought… It’s that little bit of ego where you read a couple books, and think I could write this thing. Like you have to have that or you have to think I feel like I could write this. And I had been stashing away stories about Helen of Troy for years. I was a classics major in college, so loved Greek history and archaeology and I just thought, now’s the time. I was in my mid-forties, I was not, I was not just out of college, I was in my mid- forties and had 20 years of professional experience behind me before I started. And I think that helped. I had the professional discipline. I knew what it was like to work every single day and sit down and work on something for long stretches of time. Jenny Wheeler: Turning to Lian as reader, because we always like to ask our guests about their reading taste. This is The Joys Of Binge Reading and a lot of our listeners are whale readers and looking for their next great discovery and particularly in terms of multiple published authors so they can read their whole oeuvre if they want to. Tell us a bit about your reading tastes and if you’ve got things you’d like to recommend right now. What is Lian Dolan reading now? Lian Dolan: Oh, okay. You know what? This is one of those things. People ask me this question. I forget every book I ever read. I should keep a list! I love audio books. That’s one way I can pile through a lot of books. And I particularly like mysteries and thrillers in audio books. I would never pick up a mystery or thriller and read it like a normal book. That’s was not my genre. So definitely during the Pandemic and beyond, I would binge listen to Dervla McTiernan. The Irish have turned out a lot of good mystery writers and thrillers. And I like listening to audio with good accents, like you have. So that’s why I am drawn to the English and the Irish and the Australian writers. So Dervla McTiernan is one that I would recommend. I really enjoy her things. I just did a whole re-listen to four Maeve Binchy books. She’s the best, a wonderful Irish storyteller, weaving people’s lives together. It’s just amazing the complexity of the stories that she tells and how she could pull all the strings together at the end and wonderful narration. The last couple of months I was working on another manuscript, and so I was listening to those to take my mind off it, which they’re just delightful. Delightful. If your listeners haven’t ever read Maeve been she’s the best. She’s gone now, but she’s great. I’m reading a very dark book now called My Dark Vanessa (by Kate Elizabeth Russell,) which is very dark. But another genre I like is terrible things that happen on college campuses. I like professors and academics and the cutthroat world there and the weird sexual tension and stuff. So that’s one is good. It’s very dark. But it’s well written. I’m just finishing now. The What ifs’ and the path never taken Jenny Wheeler: I don’t know if I’ve got it wrong, but the campus thing makes me think of Donna Tartt. Lian Dolan: Yes. And that was one of my favorite books. I was a classics major, so imagine. I had just graduated from college when the book came out. And I was like a book about classics majors murdering people called The Secret History? I’m on it. So that probably started me off on my exclusive college campus situation. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time. If there was one thing you’d change about your creative career, what would it be? Lian Dolan: I had an opportunity when I first moved to Los Angeles. Prior to that I was a writer and producer in the sports business in my twenties, if you can believe that. And I moved to Los Angeles, A to get married and B to get into film or tv. And I wrote a couple of spec sitcoms and I was meeting with agents and producers. And then my sister Liz, suggested this radio show and my career went off in that direction. But I think a lot about a TV writer, what that would’ve been like. I’ve had the opportunity since to develop a couple of TV shows and they’ve sold, but none of them have been made into actual shows. But I enjoy that process a lot, writing with other writers, the collaborative process. I love writing dialogue. I think about that a lot. If I had said no to Satellite Sisters and yes to more TV work, what would’ve happened. So that’s one turning point, but I don’t have any regrets. Satellite Sisters has been an extraordinary experience, like completely extraordinary. An unrealised dream – a TV series Jenny Wheeler: And that’s an unrealized ambition that you can still work on. Isn’t it? Lian Dolan: It’s never too late. That’s what I mean. I wish someone would buy The Sweeney Sisters, don’t you? I’d like to make that a TV show because there’s a lot more story in that. But yeah, that’s part of my master plan. I’d like to take another swing at the screenplay. Jenny Wheeler: Absolutely The Sweeney Sisters. When you think about it, it could be 12 episodes- or even it could be more than that. It could be a series. It definitely could, it would be fun to be able to switch back to the days when, you know their father and the woman next door first met. You could have flashbacks and things too, couldn’t you? Lian Dolan: Yes, you could. Yes. See, I’ve thought this through, so thank you. I hope someone’s listening. Jenny Wheeler: Tell us what’s next for Lian, the author, what have you got on your desk for the next 12 months? Lian Dolan: The book tour for The Marriage Sabbatical is pretty extensive. I’m excited about that. I do a lot of speaking around my books. I’m able to go to some of the places Santa Fe and Portland, Oregon. I’m appearing at the South Dakota Literary Festival, so that’s fun. A place I’ve never been to. A lot of authors don’t like speaking publicly, but I’m good with it. I like to talk. I’m looking forward to that. But I’m also working on my 2025 book. The first draft is in, and I’m waiting for my editorial notes, so I’ll be doing rewrites on that. And that is a book called The Wedding. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} A wedding story with a difference And it’s about a wedding, no surprise. But it’s told from the point of view of the mother of the bride and the mother of the groom. So, it’s not so much about the couple as the mothers, and they’re very different people from different parts of the country with different lives and different points of view on marriage and weddings and all kinds of background and things like that. That’s been really fun to write. It’s a little bit of a social satire. There’s a little bit of romance in it beyond the married couple. I’ll be finishing that. Jenny Wheeler: And to finish off, we’ve run out of time. You’ve obviously already made it very clear you enjoy interacting with your readers. For those people who can’t see you in person, where can they find you online? Lian Dolan: Sure. I’m on Instagram at Laan Dolan. or at Satellie Sisters. Either one of those places are great. I’m also on Facebook at Lian Dolan, so that’s the easiest place. And I have a website. You can always just contact me directly through liandolan.com. When you have a name like Lian, you can own all the URLs. It’s no problem. Nobody else has the name Lian. It’s an Irish name, my parents claimed, it’s the female of Liam, but I have yet to meet like a single Irish person with this name. So, I think it’s a lot of malarkey. And there’s a whole story. They actually named my sister Liz Lian. Lian Dolan signing off She was number four, and the grandmothers on the way to the baptism said, that’s a terrible name. So they’re like, okay, fine. We’ll call her Elizabeth. And then by the time I was born, the grandmothers were dead, so they named me Lian, so I didn’t even get my own name. Jenny Wheeler: Thank you so much. You’ve been a fantastic interview subject, and it’s been great fun talking. Lian Dolan: Oh, this was fantastic. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Good luck with everything. Yeah. You’re a great interviewer, Jenny. Thank you. If you enjoyed Lian Dolan you might also enjoy… Amy Poeppel and her sweet and funny family stories… The Washington Post said of The Sweet Spot; “She puts more planes in the air than an ambitious air traffic controller, and gracefully lands each one.” Delightfully fresh and funny romcom from Amy Poeppel. Her latest romp, The Sweet Spot is a tale of spurned love, revenge, and the healing power of friendship.  LISTEN TO amy Next time on Binge Reading Next time on Binge Reading, celebrated Australian broadcaster and wordsmith Kel Richards talking about his classic C. S. Lewis Country House mysteries set in 1930s. Oxford. Kel is passionate about the Golden Age of mystery and deeply immersed in Narnia creator and theologian C. S. Lewis’ Oxford college world, and his circle of friends, including Professor J R Tolkien. Bring all of them together, and you have his Country House mysteries, featuring Jack Lewis and friends, solving brain teasing “closed door” mysteries in 1930s Oxford. That’s in two weeks on Binge Reading. And remember, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. That is still the best way for them to hear about us and to hear about great books they will love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

 Chris Draper is a Kiwi IT engineer with a passion for writing optimistic, techno-thrillers like Goodbye Woomera Belle the first in a series of five planned action-filled futurist thrillers suitable for young adults, as well as adult readers. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and in this week’s Binge Reading episode, Chris talks about how he fell in love with the Australian Outback while working in Adelaide, South Australia, and decided it would be the perfect location for the fast paced, optimistic techno thriller he’d been dreaming of writing for years. And so was born Goodbye Woomera Belle, a world changing story that unfolds in 116 hours. And it couldn’t be more topical, revolving as it does around artificial intelligence and inter-governmental tensions between friendly and not so friendly powers. Erin Brightwell is a brilliant young mind whose research is critical to national security and lots of people want to get their hands on it. This week’s Giveaway – Woomera Belle We’ll get to our chat with Chris in a moment. But first this week’s book giveaway; Chris has kindly offered 10 free copies of his book. Goodbye Woomera Belle to the first 10 readers who go online and claim it. Links for the download can be found in the show notes for this episode on the website, thejoysofbingereading.com. https://dl.bookfunnel.com/gjhqvpno2v BE IN FOR DOWNLOAD OF WOOMERA BELLE Buy me a coffee and defray costs And before we get to Chris, a reminder; you can help me defray the costs of production of the show by buying me a cup of coffee on buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx, (little x, like a kiss.) My time in preparing the show is freely given, but any support from you will help kindly pay for the web posting and editing costs. BUY ME A COFFEE And if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us through word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they would love to read. Links to things mentioned in the show Woomera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woomera,_South_Australia Tom Clancy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Clancy Dan Brown: https://danbrown.com/ Dan Brown series Robert Langdon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Langdon_(book_series)#: Maralinga: https://www.indaily.com.au/opinion/2021/05/25/sas-nuclear-testing-legacy-still-unfolding-in-outback https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_nuclear_tests_at_Maralinga Deep Space Station 41 and the Island Lagoon Base, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Island_Lagoon_Tracking_Station Spacecraft: Voyagers: https://voyager.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/ Pioneer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_10 The James Webb Space telescope: https://webb.nasa.gov/ Nevil Shute: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nevil_Shute A Town Like Alice: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/107301.A_Town_Like_Alice On The Beach:  https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/38180 Trustee From The Toolroom: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/107300.Trustee_from_the_Toolroom P F Hamilton Space opera series:  https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/peter-f-hamilton/1507 Isaac Asimov  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Asimov The Foundation series: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Foundation-by-Asimov Isaac Asimov: iRobot: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/41804.I_Robot Arthur C. Clarke: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/7779.Arthur_C_Clarke Brandon Sanderson, https://www.brandonsanderson.com/ Charles Dickens, A Christmas Carol, https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5326.A_Christmas_Carol A Tale of Two Cities, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Tale_of_Two_Cities. Enid Blyton: https://www.enidblyton.net/ Where to find Chris Draper online On Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Chris-Draper/author/B09XZJQWJS Email: [email protected] Introducing techno-thriller author Chris Draper But now here’s Chris. Hello there, Chris. And welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Chris Draper – techno thriller author of Solar Cradle series Chris Draper: Hi, Jenny. It’s great to be here. Thanks for inviting me. Jenny Wheeler: This is a debut novel, and usually we have multi published authors on the show, but I loved the idea of having you on for a number of reasons. You are a friend and I heard about the book personally. I think it’s a really interesting book. We don’t often do techno thrillers either, so for all those reasons, I think people will be really interested in what you’ve got to say about it. It’s called Goodbye Woomera Belle. Am I saying it correctly? Chris Draper: Yeah. The Australians normally say Woomera as in woo. Yep. Jenny Wheeler: Goodbye Woomera Belle. You are a techie person, so the first up question really is, how did you make this leap from being a technical person to being a creative person in terms of writing fiction? How did that come about? Chris Draper: I guess it’s got a lot to do with the fact that my job is a creative job. I never thought so when I was at school. I always thought that art was a creative pursuit. But I also do a lot of writing. I’ve built a couple of tech companies in the nineties and now I’m semi-retired, but technical writing remains a huge part of my workload for the company that I work for. And as you can imagine it takes a bit of skill to take something that’s relatively complex and put it into the plain, easy to read writing, especially when it’s safety critical, which the stuff I do is. The idea of writing a book has been in the back of my mind, like a lot of people. But I’ve just managed to bite the bullet and achieve that and have four more on the go at the moment. Chris is planning a five book series Jenny Wheeler: I was going to say you are planning a five book series. What was the specific genesis for setting a book in the Outback and choosing these particular characters? How did that all come about? Chris Draper: It’s quite a long story. There was the genesis of an idea that stayed with me and just wouldn’t leave me alone. And I scratched out a few bits and pieces here and there, and it all really came together when I did a large contract in Adelaide about a dozen years ago and realized that Woomera was the absolute perfect setting for what I wanted to do. The original characters have changed a little bit. We can talk about that now or do you want to move into that a little later? Jenny Wheeler: Firstly just tell me what that original idea was that itched away at you? Chris Draper: Sure. It’s to do with the AI itself, the Artificial Intelligence, and particularly during the noughties, if you like. It started to bug me that science fiction, which has always been a genre I enjoy, turned very dark and it was all dystopian. You couldn’t have any new technology came along without scaring people into a George Orwell type universe or other such nonsense. And of course technology itself is neither good nor bad. It’s got a lot to do with how people use it or abuse it. And I felt the tables needed to be turned a little bit, or the playing field leveled, if you like, to leap around for concepts. The thriller mystery format fitted what I wanted to do with the technology. You’ve got Tom Clancy who created the techno thriller genre and then Dan Brown showed us how history can come alive, real history, and Woomera just ended up being the perfect combination of the two. Yes – Woomera is a real place! The places there are all about technology. For people that don’t know it, Woomera is the world’s largest weapons test facility on land at 127,000 square kilometers. There’s a great little museum there and a good summary about Woomera on Wikipedia if anyone wants to look it up. And there’s some fascinating links. Many countries and private companies continue to use the facility to this day. And I think perhaps a couple of things that might interest some of your listeners would be that the UK performed its initial nuclear tests there known as Maralinga, which features in the book a little bit. And the US had a facility there Deep Space Station 41 and the Island Lagoon Base, I also use in the book. I’ve generally tried to use real places wherever possible. The apartment that Erin lives in, for example was our apartment for the 18 months that I was in Adelaide. But of course, a few details have to be tweaked. Jenny Wheeler: I see that you’ve said that some readers do actually ask you whether Woomera is a real place. So you’ve cleared that up pretty well. right at the beginning, which is great. Obviously, people outside of Australia may be less aware of it. Chris Draper: There’s also a QA at the back of the book on a lot of questions like this as to where some of these sites come. I’ve naturally put it at the back of the book so it doesn’t spoil a couple of twists while people read the book. International competition and rivalry Jenny Wheeler: Now the plot revolves around international competition and rivalry. Chris Draper: Yeah. Jenny Wheeler: Between the US and Australia, which we all know that they are actually great friends and allies, but occasionally we can have misunderstandings. So several different entities are chasing some research that Erin has done. Tell us a bit about the nub of the plot. Chris Draper: It’s really a case of if somebody leaps ahead in a particular area, especially a hot technology like artificial intelligence. And as the book will talk about this particular artificial intelligence was capable of breaking just about any code going out there. You can imagine that there would be a lot of governments, good and bad, wanting to get their hands on it, but also some pretty big corporations. That’s the background. The tête-à-tête, if you like, between Australia and the US, really centers around the history of Woomera, which is real and some fictitious pieces that I build in to the place to support the plot obviously. But in reality there’s an element of politics there where the cries of upsetness from the Australians are a little bit fake. ‘ Because people would’ve known very well what the Americans were doing in Woomera at the time. So it’s plausible. I did a lot of research on that. But yeah, who knows? Trust and mistrust drive the story Jenny Wheeler: It becomes clear right at the beginning in the opening chapters that some sort of dishonest and manipulative people are chasing after Erin and trying grab her confidence. So she’s very wary and not willing to trust, which is understandable. But the whole theme of trust also takes a much deeper level on the story, doesn’t it? It’s not just her and a few people that are chasing her. It’s at the deeper level too. Chris Draper: Yes. And look that came about from perhaps being a novice writer, but I’m glad I did do it. Effectively I looked at a certain character fault that I wanted to use and decided that very few books actually really addressed trust in it, in its purest form. And boy did I find out why, because it’s really difficult to have that dark night of the soul moment where someone goes, okay, ‘I’m going trust everyone now,’ and make it believable. Unless of course you’re doing a romance story where you’ve got the love aspect play against it. Or there’s some other Hobson’s Choice or back against the wall that’s going to force somebody into a situation. So it was really difficult to do that. But the way I found to make it work was to play out the fact that all of the major characters in the book actually have trust issues including the AI might add. And that works. And there’s a considerable backstory as you can imagine, for all of the major characters and some of their dark past will come out in some of the future books as various parts of the plot. AI Alex helps drive the story Jenny Wheeler: AI has a very big part in this. But I was interested. When you first started thinking about this, did you have any idea of how AI would become the big talking point? This race between Claude and Chat GPT and all sorts of other systems? It’s the hot topic. Did you have any sense that was going to be the case when you wrote the book? Chris Draper: Yes, I did. I think it was really inevitable that we’re going to get here. It’s surprised me how quickly things have moved in the last 12 months or so, but I’m also a little bit skeptical. I don’t know if you’ve actually tried to use one of those AI’s. They can be incredibly impressive in some ways and very dumb in others. There was a case recently where somebody used an AI in a self-driving car, and it couldn’t tell the difference between wet concrete and dry concrete and drove straight into a work site up to its gunnels as in wet concrete and things like that. The AI tends to be doing a little bit of that at the moment. Now my AI is truly sentient in that sense. And it’s as a neutral technology that can be used for good or bad. If you remember Nobel was horrified at how his dynamite invention could be intended to kill people when he thought it was going to make construction safer. And, but if you look at Arthur C. Clark’s 2001 and Space Odyssey, I think that’s a bit closer to where AI is going to head in the next wee while, and it’s closer to what I’ve portrayed where that particular machine, Hal actually struggles to reconcile conflicting orders and goes a bit crazy in the process of trying to make out what the heck these humans are wanting them to do. I think the key theme for the AI in this book is that the AI does not actually know whether it’s really in the real world or it’s being contained inside some virtual test tube environment and being monitored. And you can imagine if you are some sort of intelligence, your prime motivation is to survive. AI Alex is as confused as the humans So if you weren’t sure whether you were in the real world or not, you’ve got to be really careful about what you do in case someone does hit that big red button and makes you go away. And so that was a key principle of my AI in this story. He’s not sure right up till nearly the end of the book in a lot of ways. 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Jenny Wheeler: Jordan Peterson. Yes. I wondered how his work actually fitted into the story. Chris Draper: The original main character was going to be a retired under a cloud NASA scientist from New Zealand who had returned to New Zealand and started tinkering or something along those lines. But then I realized that I had a book that was full of male characters and not only was that not a good idea. Enter Professor Carol Lamond It made having some of the conflict difficult because you tended to have a lot similar points of view. The main character then got changed to a female Dr. Lamond. Which she does feature in the book, of course. But when I decided to put the whole book into Woomera I realized that Erin was the key to unlocking the start of the story. Erin is a student of psychology, whereas Dr. Lamond was the professor. And I needed to do a lot of research about how various psychology principles can and can’t be applied to technology. And, you can imagine it’s a very new field. Who, puts an AI on the couch and sees how they feel? It theoretically hasn’t been done yet to any extent. But that was the area that I had to do a lot of research on and Jordan happened to have a very good series of first year psychology presentations lectures online. And I watched all of those. And then we moved on and he had a whole series on Genesis, and he was looking particularly at that first chapter of the Bible from the basis of symbols fact and how they meant something in the first century. It was absolutely fascinating. In a lot of ways when he was doing that, he was very like the prime character in Dan Brown’s novels. The symbolic professor’s name actually escapes me just at the moment. So that gave a lot of the moral basis of the story, as well as how the psychology aspects worked into the story. (Ed note: Professor Robert Langdon was the name) Woomera takes us to farthest space Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting you mentioned Genesis because another thing that really stunned me about your book was that the vision of it is so huge. You take us right to the outer limits of outer space and so I can see why you might be fascinated with Genesis, because it’s just like the beginning of the universe, and then you look right to the outer edges of the universe. Tell us a bit about that. For people who really only know the universe as the earth revolving around the sun. Chris Draper: It is a big place out there and it’s where the sci-fi aspect fits in, but it’s “near to current time Sci-Fi.” And by that I mean I’m not looking at Star Trek ships zooming around a galaxy or even a universe. We’re just crawling out of our own earth at the moment with various companies and countries really getting serious about getting into space. If you look at SpaceX, they’re launching four or five times a week at the moment, sometimes three times in the same day. That was unheard of 10 or 15 years ago, let alone 30 years ago. And space is now economically viable, which is quite a turning point, and we’ve got our own backyard to explore. So that’s an important part, because to me it makes the book believable that if we just step outside the earth’s atmosphere and do something in the solar system. We ‘don’t know what we don’t know’ That’s where I limit the story. It’s near and here to a certain extent. The second point I’d make is that just the simple number of probes that are out there, the Voyagers, the Pioneers that were launched in the seventies and even the more modern ones, such as the James Webb telescope, are upending scientific theory almost on a weekly basis as well. The new discoveries are incredible and that really tends to reinforce the things that what we know about the universe are probably wrong a lot of the time, but we just don’t know it. And as soon as we come across various facts, the hypothesis and theories get changed accordingly. The last one I saw was they’ve discovered some galaxies in extreme distance that should not be able to be built on the current theories that we have because they’re too big and complex for the age that they’re supposed to be, et cetera, et cetera. I think the story, staying in their own backyard, but wondering about the large universe, you’re quite right. It picks up on that Genesis theme. And it’s partly why the series is called Solar Cradle. It’s focusing on our sun and the immediate vicinity as we try to walk around and do something in such a massive creation. Jenny Wheeler: We did meet through a local church, which we are both members of. I’m interested in how that huge vision of space and these new discoveries, how do you reconcile that with your faith? Does it challenge your faith in any way or does it underline it a bit? Big ideas underline Chris’s faith Chris Draper: I think the latter, underlines. Really it just serves to reinforce how tiny and insignificant we think our achievements are in something this big, that can be created like it is. I don’t think we’ve scratched the surface on exactly how it works. There’s more to come, but hey, as we’ve both been taught, we’re supposed to go out and make use of all of this, and I see space as just the next frontier. And as a rider I would add it’s a little bit like the contemporary novel has to be like a historical novel that would see the new world as the frontier where you could set things to be just a little bit different, a little bit edgy maybe and ask why or why not. Equally well, it’s pretty hard to do that on the surface of the planet anymore, because for one thing, there’s nowhere you can go to be out of communication. If you need a story mechanism to mean that you’ve isolated one of your characters from the other it’s much harder to be believable in a contemporary story than it is in either a future or a historical story. Jenny Wheeler: As you mentioned, you’re planning this as a five book series, so I guess you have a sense of where the story is going. Tell us about that. Are you a big planner or is it the case that you might have an end in mind, but don’t you have much idea of how you’re getting there? Chris Draper: What I thought was an outline for the first book was really back of the envelope stuff. And at the moment I’ve got about 40,000 words in the outline for the whole series. The plot has a lot of twists and turns and some of the characters that have been introduced as almost walk-ons become major characters later on. How Chris approaches the creative process And I’ve got character arcs right across the whole series of books, but that doesn’t mean I get away without having each book as a standalone story that stands up on its own legs and is still interesting to read if you just happen to pick up book three, for example. That’s taken an awful lot of planning. It’s taken 18 months or so to get that where I’m happy with it. And then on top of that you’ve got all of the research and all of the character back stories and stuff. Now I’ve got the detailed outline for Book Two. It is a little bit different from Book One but I promised myself that as long as the key plot points are picked up by the story, I don’t mind if the characters wander about and get into an argument a bit more than I anticipated. For an example, a character that’s probably near and dear to your heart in the form of Detective Wheeler was supposed to be a walk-on character who was there for one scene to introduce the other person with no name. And that was on the advice of a real detective, because I said, okay, so I’ve got someone from the government, perhaps secret service or stuff. What if they wanted to talk to you? What would they say? And he says, they wouldn’t say anything about them. They’d have a cop there to make sure you knew who they were. Letting your characters develop And then they would have the conversation wherever they wanted to have the conversation. I took that to heart and that’s how the opening scene came about. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, Detective Wheeler is a bit of a mystery figure, but he is one of the most likable ones, I think. Chris Draper: That’s why he stayed. And yes, I like all my characters. I’m sure you hear that all the time. And yes, he plays a more prominent part in the opening of the second book than I intended. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Look, you’ve kindly offered to give away ten digital copies of Goodbye Woomera Belle to our readers, and we’ll put that into our show notes with how they can get hold of those, but I wondered. What are you hoping that readers will take away from this? What are you wanting them to experience or understand? Chris Draper: I hope they have a great time reading it. That’s why we read the books in the first place. But I guess I like the idea of learning something when you read and traditionally a sci-fi book, even though this is slightly different, but traditionally a sci-fi book will take something that would seem ordinary and twist it on the head and say, what if? I’m thinking of one particular book that Isaac Asimov wrote where people all lived underground on the planet and they were absolutely terrified of being in space. And they had a detective there that was the best in his class, and he went and solved a crime on a planet where they absolutely hated being in the same room as another person. Adding a twist to the ‘ordinary’ You can take a current concept and twist it all around the place. And I think that gives you something you can learn from a book. In this book it’s more about learning how the characters overcome some of their mistrust. But it’s also where they can use their wits to actually get themselves out of a fix, rather than just give up and give in. Plus along the way you’ll learn quite a bit about the wonderful Outback of Australia. I think it’s one of the most amazing places on the planet. The Flinder’s Range is known as some of the oldest rocks in the world, billions of years old according to the carbon dating. I’ve tried to infuse a sense of what it’s like to be out there. But you really have to go to see what it’s like, to be honest. Never Miss out! 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Chris Draper is reading now Jenny Wheeler: So Adelaide, it’s a very much a metropolitan city, but how far away from the actual Outback is it? How far do you have to travel to get into the Outback from Adelaide? Chris Draper: It’s about three, three and a half hours, from Adelaide from memory or thereabouts. Most of it is getting to Port Augusta. And there’s a scene that features in the book which absolutely fascinated me. You’re sitting at this little two lane road intersection with a sign and pointing straight ahead it’s a million miles to Perth and pointing to the right, it’s a million miles to go to Darwin. It’s just a one of those fascinating spots on the world, and I had to include it in the book, obviously. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. Yeah. That’s terrific. Turning to Chris as reader. We do like to ask our authors about their personal taste in reading and we’d really be interested to know what you like to read, because obviously it probably is a bit different from what some of the other people listening to the show read. Chris Draper: Sure. Look, I’m terribly eclectic. And what I read – and I would add I can’t read while I’m writing for some reason, it just clutters my mind. But reading is also a major motivator to get the keyboard out and start writing as well. It tends to be an on again, off again exercise. Other Australian writers to follow I think it depends what floats your boat After you’ve read Goodbye Woomera Belle if you wanted to know a bit more about Australia and some of the Australian writers, I’d go back to one of the classics there, which would be Nevil Shute and his books, like A Town Like Alice or Trustee from the Tool Room, which was a personal favorite. On The Beach, which some people may or may not know about. It portrays life in Australia after the Northern Hemisphere has destroyed itself. In a nuclear winter. And everyone in Australia is just waiting for the clouds to drift south. Now Nevil wrote this in the forties or something, and so he hadn’t conceived of the idea that a jet plane could get halfway around the world in a single hop. The technology is dated to the period that he wrote the book. And I think that’s part of its fascination. I loved anything that Isaac Asimov or Arthur C. Clarke wrote, like Asimov’s Foundation series. He put modern Sci-Fi as it was when he created universe and wrote several books in it, including the one that some people have heard of iRobot. Sci Fi to classics – Asimov to Dickens There were a number of books there, but that’s pure science fiction. Then there’s galactic space operas, like P. F. Hamilton’s. An odd one would be Brandon Sanderson. I really like his stuff. He’s actually a Professor of writing and has a lot of really good talks online. He’s also a New York Times best time seller. He writes fantasy as far as I’m concerned, but he calls himself Sci-Fi because he actually explains the science behind the magic, so it’s not just weird stuff, and that tends to give rules for his books which all the characters have to follow. And Dickens – he’s one of my favorite authors of all time. I love delving into rereading Charles Dickens. Either A Christmas Carol or A Tale of Two Cities. The language is just beautiful. I wish I could describe scenes as well as he does. In the night coach to Dover scene, and I think it’s about the second chapter of a Tale of Two Cities. So there’s an eclectic mix. I’d also throw in Enid Blyton, would you believe? Because I’m rereading some of that old stuff before my grandson is old enough to start reading it. I’ve just bought his mother the full set of the famous five and she’s devouring that. And cozy mysteries. Hector Poirot and the Miss Marples and anything like that. Both my wife and I love to watch those. What would Chris change as a creator? Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s fabulous. Looking back down the tunnel of time in terms of your creative career, if you had your time over again, is there anything that you’d change and what would it be? Chris Draper: I think I’d obviously want to start writing a lot earlier, but I mentioned it before. When I was at school for some reason, I got the idea into my head, or it was put there, that art was arty and nothing else was. I didn’t really think of woodwork or metalwork or English or maths as being creative. And all of those are hobbies of mine to one extent or another. I was one of those weird kids that really enjoyed English. And it was perhaps because at the time I was reading a book a day I could get away with it. I even had one teacher at a parent teacher interview tell my parents that they really didn’t like me reading all the way through their class, but they wouldn’t dare stop me because they had so much trouble getting other kids to read in the first place. So yes, It would be deciding I was creative and doing something about it much earlier than I did. Jenny Wheeler: What is next for Chris as author? Have you started Book Two yet? And what does the next 12 months look like for you as a creative person? Chris Draper’s plans for next 12 months Chris Draper: It’s going to be working on Book Two and maybe starting on the detailed outlines for Book Three, so that the continuation is kept there. I now only work part-time. And we’ve built our retirement house, if you like, and the landscaping is just about finished. So hopefully I’ll get some of those days back that I now no longer work and can focus on my writing. Jenny Wheeler: Have you got a title for Book Two yet? Chris Draper: Yes. It’s probably going to be Woomera Express. Jenny Wheeler: Oh great. Oh, that sounds great. I like the title of Goodbye Woomera Belle about We won’t let on what exactly Woomera Belle is, but that’s also fun. Chris Draper: I’m one of these… you know how some people come up with a title and boom, that’s it. I had dozens of pages of titles all the way through writing that before I came up with that. As I was writing the ending actually and having read the book, you can see why. To me the title’s got to be a meaningful something and because of the sort of the mixed genre, if you like it was difficult to get a title that portrays it. The book cover from a family photo And another little anecdote the cover picture of the girl walking down the road. I actually have a real photograph that’s very similar, which was my own daughter walking on the road at one of the visits that we made to where we at the time. And that was the inspiration for the cover artwork. Jenny Wheeler: I love the cover as well. It has got a really lovely feeling both eerie and draws you in. It’s, yeah, it’s interesting. Chris Draper: Yeah. Jenny Wheeler: Do you enjoy interacting with readers? I know that you’ve only just really started out and you haven’t made much effort yet to get a database established, but have you heard from readers with this first book and have you enjoyed the interactions? Where to find Chris Draper online Chris Draper: Yeah, I have but only a couple. And look, that is my fault. I’ve worked off the basis that nobody’s going to take me seriously until I’ve got a couple or three books out there and proven myself that way. But if anybody’s there and wants to interact, I’d absolutely love to hear any feedback or answer questions and stuff. And we’ll put the various links and I’ve got a special email that can be used as well. And that will be on the landing page at book funnel. And we’ll also through my Amazon author page, I’ll make sure it’s there as well. Jenny Wheeler: Great. And we do a full transcript of this episode, so we’ll include the links for all of that we’ve talked about in that transcript as well. Chris Draper: That’s brilliant. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Remember – Free Book To Download Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. So that’s it. People, do put your name in for those ten copies. It’s just ten. So first, in get woomera belle here Chris Draper: First and first served. That’s right. Yep. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. Thanks so much, Chris. It’s been great talking. Chris Draper: Thanks Jenny. Really appreciate it. If you enjoyed Chris you might also enjoy… Susan Kiernan Lewis… Susan Kiernan-Lewis is a USA Today bestselling author with multiple mystery series set in France, a dystopian futurist series set in Ireland, and a fascination with the post-apocalyptic world… In this Binge Reading episode, Susan talks about her passion for all things French, her fascination with the idea of a post-apocalyptic world, and the challenges of living with face blindness – a condition which makes it difficult to recognize other people’s faces. LISTEN TO SUSAN KIERNAN LEWIS Next time on Binge Reading Next time on Binge Reading, Lian Dolan is quick to make clear that the central premise of her latest book, The Marriage Sabbatical does not come from personal experience. She says my life is just not that interesting. But The Marriage Sabbatical is a fascinating tale of marriage veterans of 23 years who take holidays apart because of their wildly clashing personal interests and discover new things about themselves and their love for each other. That’s in two weeks time, on The Joys Of Binge Reading. And remember, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review s others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

 Amy Harmon grew up in a remote Utah valley, very close to where the famed outlaw Butch Cassidy really lived. Quite a few years before her, of course. The folklore surrounding his Robin Hood reputation has always fascinated her. She’s far too young to have seen the famous movie starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford first time round, but she’s excavated the history and shed a whole new light on the story and her latest book, The Outlaw Noble Salt. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and in this week’s Binge Reading episode, Amy talks about the mystery surrounding Robert LeRoy Parker, better known as Butch Cassidy, the American outlaw, train robber and leader of a gang called The Wild Bunch. It’s officially recorded that he died in a shootout with local authorities in Bolivia in 1908. But did he really? Amy’s book is a fascinating and heart-touching re-imagining of the story. Mystery and Thriller Giveaway Our Giveaway this week – We always have free books to Giveaway -. is Mystery Thriller And Suspense Freebies. MYSTERY, THRILLER & SUSPENSE FREEBIES And the range is huge with something to suit every taste ,from historicals like Poisoned Legacy, Book One in my Of Gold& Blood Gold Rush romance series through to cozies and contemporary psychological thrillers. Find the link to download these books in the show notes for the episode on the website. The Joys Of Binge Reading.com. DOWNLOAD FREE BOOKS Before we get to Amy, a reminder. You can help defray the costs of the production of the show by buying me a cup of coffee at buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx. And if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best recommendation and the way for others to find the show and discover great books they will love to read. Links to items mentioned in the show Movie: Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064115/ Folklore: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butch_Cassidy Eliot Ness: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eliot_Ness Gladys Knight: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gladys_Knight Books Amy has loved in the past or is reading now: Louise L’Amour – Western classics: https://www.louislamour.com/ Lucy Maud Montgomery: https://lmmontgomery.ca/about/lmm/her-life Anne of Green Gables: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Anne-of-Green-Gables Baroness Orczy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scarlet_Pimpernel Paullina Simons The Bronze Horseman: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/47499.Paullina_Simons Susanna Kearsley: susannakearsley.com Poets: William Butler Yeats: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._B._Yeats Emily Dickinson: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Emily-Dickinson Introducing author Amy Harmon Amy Harmon: re-imagining the Burch Cassidy story But now here’s Amy. Hello there, Amy, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Amy Harmon: I am so excited to talk to you, Jenny. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve written more than 20 books and the most recent one is The Outlaw Noble Salt, and it retells the Butch Cassidy and the Sundance story, The Wild Bunch Story. If we are of a certain age, we saw the movie years ago, so it’s well known. What did you feel you could bring new to it? Amy Harmon: I have always been drawn to the story, and I think it’s because I grew up in a valley, just north of the valley where Butch Cassidy, who wasn’t known as Butch Cassidy in his early years, he was Robert Parker, lived. He was born very close to where I was born, a hundred years apart. We were born in small town Utah at the end of the Wild West era. He was the last of this very short time period that defined in the West. And I have always been interested in him. I’ve always felt a connection to him. Beyond just of course, the movie which came out in 1969, which predates me a little bit. I didn’t grow up with the movie, but it was very much the Western lore that is part of this place where I grew up, and so I think I’ve always been drawn to him. Living near the Butch Cassidy valley Every year my family goes through that valley on our way to California. It’s our family reunion trip. My parents were both raised in California, so we all gather there and every year I hit that valley about the same time coming home. The valley has called me and probably two years ago coming through it, I just felt called to it and decided was I was going to answer the call and start looking more into the story of Butch Cassidy and what I could add that was beyond maybe what people thought they knew. Because there’s a lot more to him than I think people know. Jenny Wheeler: Did you feel that, Butch’s reputation needed rescuing or that the image that had been left of him wasn’t quite true to what you think he deserved? Amy Harmon: I think Butch’s reputation was a mixed one, In Utah he had quite a good reputation. And that comes through in the story. Even though he was an outlaw, he had this Robin Hood reputation, this Gentleman Outlaw if you will. He was very, respected in some quarters because he lived with a certain ethos of ‘do no harm.’ So he robbed, but he gave his winnings to the poor and he didn’t harm anyone and he didn’t hurt anyone. It was this part of his personality. That was also interesting to me, that he had these lines that he drew for himself. What I wanted to resuscitate or what I wanted to maybe explore was the way that Butch Cassidy felt about himself. And the more research I did, the more the sense of regret that I felt. And I think there’s a bit of channeling that happens when you really dig deep into someone else’s life. You start to feel the way they may have felt. And I really felt his regret. I think he got pulled into a life that he didn’t realize he was being pulled into. Butch Cassidy – living with regret And that sense of that it was too late really came through. When I went through his history, I really felt like he regretted the choices that he made as a young man and then could never quite get out of the life and that he’d made for himself. And so, this was my chance to give him a different ending. And I felt that sense of euphoria or this sense of maybe I gave him some redemption that life didn’t give him. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, and in the book, it comes through that I believe that he committed virtually no murders himself. He got into The Wild Bunch gang as they were called, and there were some mean-spirited men there who killed without too much conscience, and of course he was associated with those men, is how you see it. Yeah, he was associated. I don’t know that the things that even The Wild Bunch that the men he was associated with, I don’t think any of those things happened when he was with those men. That was a line. and he’s adamant about that, the people he was with or got wrapped up in, as far as the robberies he was pretty adamant about that. When he was on a job that those things didn’t happen. And of course at the end of the Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid, the movie, there’s a shootout and if you’re shooting, somebody’s gonna get hurt. I don’t know how much he can really claim that he didn’t hurt anyone. Amy Harmon: But that was the reputation, that he never killed anyone. Did Butch die in a Bolivian shoot out? Jenny Wheeler: In the book he’s got a brother who also causes him some difficulties. Did he have a brother? Is that a true part of the story? Amy Harmon: He, Butch Cassidy or Robert Parker, was the oldest of 13 children. He had lots of brothers and lots of sisters, but there was a brother named Dan that wanted to follow in his brother’s footsteps and he ran him off. He was adamant about his brother not getting involved. And so it was from that I then took the inspiration for the character Van. I didn’t want to make a villain out of a real person. And I do think that Dan Parker went on and made good. He struggled a bit and got involved with things he shouldn’t. And like I said, Butch Cassidy had to run him off. But it gave me some inspiration for some characters that were fictionalized in the story. Jenny Wheeler: As you mentioned, in the movie, sadly I’m old enough to have actually seen that movie when I was a younger person, but in the movie, they do die in the shootout in Bolivia, and that’s a long standing point of discussion whether that really did happen or not. I read a little bit online and one of the thoughts was that they have since exhumed bones down there and found that they were not Robert Parker’s bones. Tell us about that strange, ambiguous ending. Amy Harmon: It’s a strange ambiguous ending. I actually think the movie is a great movie. I think the movie captures the sparkle and the wit and the personality of Butch Cassidy. I really think it was well captured. And I think the ending was perfectly ambiguous because we really don’t know. It was believed that for a long time that he was that Butch Cassidy and the Sundance kid were killed in Bolivia, in a shootout. There are have been so many people that have (investigated,) that are still Butch Cassidy hunters, still are obsessed with him. They and have gone on these long, treasure hunting, treasure seeking journeys. Family insists Butch came home But his family, his youngest sister, insists that he came back to the little valley in Utah that’s just over the hill from the valley I grew up in. She insists he came back, which is pretty hard evidence. And it is believed that he is buried on the family’s property. They all went to their graves keeping that secret. If he is buried there, no one knows where. And it makes sense that they wouldn’t want anyone to know because there would be no way that he would be left to rest in peace. So that is the belief that his family, members of his family had. And that is kind of testified to, but as far as hard evidence, bones or remains or anything like that, there have been no remains found in either place. Jenny Wheeler: You can understand how the family, it would become some sort of tourist destination. So you can understand why they would keep it quiet. Give us an insight into your writing process. This book, it might have changed as you, developed over your 20 books, but with this book, how did you tackle it? Amy Harmon: Oh, every book is so painful and I think that’s a hard thing for. early writers that are just getting started. I don’t know how to do it without really going deep as far as character studies. And you never know where this story’s going to lead. For me it’s always a really painful, it’s glorious, but it’s painful. It’s like having a child, that’s the only thing that’s the closest thing I can compare it to. Having had four children and having written 20 books, there’s this sense of laboring and giving birth to, a new being. And this one was no different. It was being pulled along and following the trail of breadcrumbs or the trail of history and digging and excavating and trying to really discover what it is that you want to say and what story you want to tell. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The painful process of creation And you just have to follow that process and stick with it. For me, it’s always really painful right up until the end. I never have that sense of always knowing where I’m going or having it be easy or having it just flow for me. It’s always painful. It’s always a process, but there’s nothing like having written. I’m not the first one to say that. I don’t necessarily always like writing, but I love having written. I love the whole process when it’s all said and done. There’s really nothing like it. For me, it’s just that sense of having faith and sticking with it and just continuing to chip away and tell the story I set out to tell that I feel like I’ve actually accomplished something. Jenny Wheeler: And do you do all of your research before you start writing a word? Amy Harmon: I don’t think there’s any ending or beginning to the whole process. You have to do enough research that you have a foundation and that you have an idea and that you know your characters and you know the setting. But there’s just no way to not stop all the way through and your mind and the book itself will lead you into new areas that demand that you stop and you familiarize yourself. The research goes on all the way through and you just have to allow for that. Jenny Wheeler: You have some wonderfully creative devices that lift the story into the realm of myth. And I guess this is a story that lends itself to myth because already there is quite a sense of myth around those figures. One of the elements that you use is introducing these haiku poems, and every single turn of the plot really is influenced by a poem of some kind. Just those five line poems, a thread through the story, where did that idea come from? How haiku poems slipped into the story Amy Harmon: It is really hard. I was thinking about that. I thought, where did it come from? Inspiration is such a thin thread that then you start to pull on it and you don’t always remember what the first thread was. But I do think in this case, there are a couple things. One of the things when I read the autopsy – for be for lack of a better word – the evidence that was purportedly found on Butch Cassidy. They said that he had a little notebook and a small pencil in his breast pocket when his body was discovered in this shoot after the shootout in Bolivia. Again, this is all from the time what was listed. And we don’t know now if that was actually him or what. But that little notebook and that small pencil were very interesting to me. I thought, why would he carry around this notebook? As a writer, I carry around notebooks. I have notebooks and pens stashed everywhere. And it made me think that Butch Cassidy had a little bit of writer in him and once that got into my mind I thought it was just a small notebook, there wouldn’t have been room to write big journal entries or draw big pictures. It was that this little notebook in his pencil started me thinking. And the simplicity of haiku, the syllables and the simplicity of the poetry suited his personality to me. And then along with that there’s a rich heritage in this state that he grew up in and that I’ve grown up in. Mining was a big part of what brought people to the state and it was a big part of the diversity of this state. There was a huge Japanese contingent, whole towns that were settled by Japanese immigrants that came to work in the mines. And Butch Cassidy for a small time worked in one of these mines that was populated mostly by Japanese immigrants. And so it gave a little bit of color to the setting and a nod to Utah’s heritage to include that. To include haiku. It was very much it made sense to me. It felt right as I came across that, and I thought that works with his personality. And I just loved it. It became addicting. I still do it. I’m still constantly writing these little haiku in my head and anybody that reads the book will find that for a few days after, you’ll be composing haiku. Combining hope and tragedy Jenny Wheeler: It’s a wonderful playful element and it really helps lift things, that is imbued right through the story because you keep on thinking, how can this have a happy ending? How could it be redemptive? Now, we’re not going to give anything away, but with this book and other books of yours, that sense of both tragedy and some light redemptive quality, you managed to combine those two things well. Is that a sense you have of life in general that, it can be hard, but you’re looking for a redemptive aspect? Amy Harmon: I honestly think that there is no story without tragedy. every story throughout history, our own, our ancestors, every one of them is imbued with that tragedy. And it is what makes a story. The opposites, the tragedy, and the drama and the romance, all of it works together and plays together and I guess maybe because I am drawn to historical books and historical stories, that sense of tragedy is even more pronounced because history is full of it. It’s unavoidable and most historical stories have tragic elements, or they have tragic endings, and yet I want to write romance, which demands a happy ending. Anybody that talks about romance demands that you know that they have a happy ending, that’s one of the tenets of that genre. And so I’ve juggled that, wanting to be true to people’s true stories and to people’s real struggles, and yet have that sense of hope that I think life also has in spades. Life always has this sense of hope and I think that is an element that runs through all of my stories, that hopeful element that even when things are really dark and even when things don’t have happy endings, which in most cases if you’re working with historical people, they don’t. So, you have to find a way to flip that on its ear and give the reader that light at the end of the tunnel or that pot of gold at the end of a rainbow. So yes, I definitely have that element on all my stories, and I don’t ever see myself being able to avoid it or even wanting to avoid it. What happened to Elliot Ness? Jenny Wheeler: That does bring us to another book that very much parallels. this one in terms of your theme and even your character being a well known. This time, a crime fighter who’s had screen appearances, and that’s Elliot Ness. You’ve written The Unknown Beloved, which takes Elliot Ness’s story. Tell us how that one worked out for you. Amy Harmon: That’s so interesting because Elliot Ness is not the main character in that, he’s a side character which is actually easier for me to do. I did the same, I used the same when I wrote What The Wind Knows. I used Michael Collins, who is a great Irish figure. I used him a side character, and I did the same in The Unknown Beloved with Elliot Ness, because a lot of people know Elliot Ness only through, his crime fighting days in his twenties. Al Capone and the taking down of the mob in Chicago. I didn’t know the rest of Elliot Ness’s story. I actually came across some of the Mafia elements when I was writing The Songbook of Benny Lament, which was set in the sixties. It had some Mafia elements. And when I started to dig around in that, I came across what happened to Elliot Ness in his later years, and the main character in The Unknown Beloved was a man named Michael Malone. He’s a real man, a real figure in history who would have known Elliot Ness but he wasn’t as known himself. I was able to make his story be the main force in in that one. But yes it’s interesting to take real characters and again, turn it on its ear a little bit and say, what if, or here’s another element that you might not have been aware of. People get these real life stories and these real life people, but then they get this fiction wound through it that gives them the history, but also gives them maybe an alternate ending. Elliot Nest didn’t have a good ending either. That was an interesting way to wind him in and to further his story, but at the same time not have to focus on his ending, which wasn’t a very happy one. Writing 700 years of Irish history Jenny Wheeler: Yes, you do say history is messy and hard and often sad, and you sometimes find it hard to give your historical stories a good ending, so that’s part of the labor process. Amy Harmon: Yes. 700 years. When I was doing the research for What The Wind Knows, it coves 700 years of Irish history, I’m like, where do I even begin? And it doesn’t end well after the Irish Revolution, which is where I focused that story. You talk to any Irish person of which that’s my heritage. It didn’t end well. It was very sad. The country was very split and so yes, you have to find where it is that history is hopeful and wind that into the darker elements of human experience. Jenny Wheeler: In the Outlaw Noble story, you’ve got a wonderful character, a young boy called Augustus, who’s 10 years old, and one of his distinguishing aspects is that he has a birthmark on his face, which is very obvious to everybody who meets him. It puts a bit of a screen between him and other people when they initially meet him. In the end notes of the book, you mentioned that you used that character because one of your sons had a similar birthmark, and I wondered why it was important to you to perhaps write about this in a book. Amy Harmon: Yes, my son Sam who’s just turning 14 was born with what they call a Port Wine stain, and it encompasses half of his face. It’s like it sounds it’s wine colored. It’s very thick and dark. There are new treatments in the last 20, 30 years that have come around where they can laser the marks and help improve the appearance, but everybody, every mark is different. And Sam has had to learn how to live with that aspect. It hasn’t been pleasant. It’s a hard thing when you’re born with a very distinguishing thing and it’s called a deformity. I don’t look at it as such. In fact, I find it quite endearing and I think he’s quite beautiful. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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I think people, once they get to know him forget that he even has it. You get very used to it. In fact, I forget, and then I will notice sometimes when we’re out in public and I’ll notice people staring and it comes as a shock. And then I look at him anew because I forget. And so those experiences as his mother wishing that I could take it from him, but then understanding that in many ways it’s a gift. That it has it has forced a character arc in him that he would otherwise not get. And that it’s, like I said, in many ways it’s a beautiful gift, but that experience that he’s had made it very easy and very cathartic for me to write. In Outlaw Noble Gus deals with the same difficulty, with the same ailment. And it also made for an interesting comparison with a man like Butch Cassidy, who wishes that he could hide from his own identity, from the sense that both have that you can’t hide. that who you are will always be there. And that you have to live in a certain way that the crosses that we bear or the mistakes that we make that, that those things we will carry and that we can’t hide from them. And who we are matters both on the inside and the outside. So it was an interesting way for these two people, to bond for this boy, to bond with this outlaw who was in many ways trying to hide and realizes he can’t. And for this boy that wishes he could hide and can’t. It was an interesting character study. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. When you first started writing, did you have a goal in mind and have you achieved it yet? Amy Harmon: With this book or overall? Jenny Wheeler: Overall. Writing: ‘never about reaching the summit’ Amy Harmon: Overall, I don’t know if I’ll ever achieve it. And that’s good, because it’s never about reaching the summit. It’s never about reaching the peak. It’s always about the journey. And I’m convinced that’s what storytelling is. Storytelling is about the journey. It’s never about the ending. Although there’s nothing like really nailing that ending or nailing that landing. No, I hope I don’t ever reach the summit because I think that there won’t be any more stories in me. I have to continue seeking. It’s the seeking that really makes for a great story. And so, I’m looking forward to continuing to seek. Jenny Wheeler: Let’s talk about Amy as reader, I always like to ask our guests about their reading habits. If they’ve got anything they’d like to recommend to other listeners? Most of our listeners are obviously voracious readers. What are you reading at the moment? Have you been a binge reader in the past? Give us a sense of what you love most about reading books yourself. Amy Harmon: I would have been a binge reader all my life. It’s actually up until when I started writing and then could no longer binge read. I still have stacks and stacks of books there, but a lot of it is research. I don’t read as much fiction as I used to, but growing up I grew up in the middle of nowhere and my parents let me and encouraged me to read everything and read everything I did. Books were my friends. That was my escape. in many ways, my whole life revolved around what I was reading. And it continues to this day. I’ve been formed by the stories that I’ve read. I still love Shakespeare. I still love historicals. I grew up reading Louis L’Amour. I don’t know if how many readers are familiar with Louis L’Amour, a Western writer that interestingly enough his agent and my agent are connected. Amy Harmon’s favourite books My agent is the daughter of his agent, so it’s really wild that I grew up reading Louis L’Amour and his stories of the West which felt very much a part of my life, and then having grown up and having that connection. But lots of Louis L’Amour books like Lonesome Dove. I loved the stories of the West. but I love the stories of medieval times too. I loved King Arthur. I loved all of that kind of that sense of, again, mythology and legend mixed with history. And I think that all comes out in my books. some of my favorite more recent reads are I anything by Susanna Kearsley, my favorite of hers is The Winter Sea. I love The Bronze Horseman by Paullina Simons. I love books like The Scarlet Pimpernel  I grew up reading Beverly Cleary and Judy Bloom. Anne of Green Gables was probably my favorite book. L. M. Montgomery. She would probably be one of my favorite writers and continues to be probably the reason, the most formative writer of my life. And yet, and I also love poetry. I’m a fan of Yeats and Dickinson. I read everything and was allowed to read everything and I continue to be blown away by. Some of the old books – I go back and revisit them because they really are what formed me and made me a writer. Anne of Green Gables author ‘formative influence’ Jenny Wheeler: I’m interested in your comment about Anne Of Green Gables being formative. Tell us a little bit more about that. Amy Harmon: It’s interesting. Lucy Maude Montgomery Did not have a happy childhood. We know that Anne is an orphan and is adopted by a brother sister combo. And of course, anybody that has read those books knows the writer, Lucy Maud Montgomery, It was her escape, writing. Anne Of Green Gables was her escape. She did not have a good childhood and a good life. It was a very sad existence and there was a sense of her living the life that she didn’t have through her stories. I definitely can relate to that, the sense of writing stories that are very personal and that almost feel biographical, but yet are alternative history or alternative past that maybe we don’t all get to take, we don’t get. We all have struggles and difficulties and yet we can write stories that give us the life that we otherwise wouldn’t have. I think that’s one of the most beautiful aspects of being writers that we live other lives, and readers do too. But as writers, we get to live all these lives. And so in that way it was formative in that it introduced that to me that idea of living more lives than the one life that I have. But then as a writer I’ve been able to continue with that journey. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. I must admit I didn’t know that about Lucy Montgomery in her life, so I will look at it with the new fresh eyes now. Amy Harmon: Yes. What the next 12 months holds for Amy Harmon Jenny Wheeler: Tell us about the next 12 months for you. What have you got on your desk for Amy as author? What does the next year hold? Amy Harmon: I’m thick in it. This time of year is all always the busiest time for me because I have a book that releases, The Outlaw Noble Salt which will release April 9th That’s around the time where I have my new deadline. I’ve pushed it back away because it was killing me every year to have a book released and also a book deadline in the same month. So I pushed it into the summer. But the book that I’m working on now has some of that magical realism of some of my other stories. With a very interesting historical period two historical periods. It’s mainly set on the Isle Of White in Great Britain. And as I continue to dig, I’ve fallen in love with this particular time in history. I’m not going to go into it too much because it’s complicated. And as my editor informed me the other day, I really need to work on my elevator pitch. But yes, I’m working on something now that has history and royalty and British history all wrapped up around this Isle Of White in Great Britain. So that’s happening right now. Jenny Wheeler: And which time periods are we talking about? Amy Harmon’s next book Amy Harmon: We are talking about 1500 and we are talking about 1900. This 400 year span, we have a parallel storyline which I haven’t done a lot of before. a little but not a full out. Not like this. And so it’s really my word of the year is excavation because I’m really digging down into some history and it’s challenge to me. But again, it’s about the journey. And so I’m trying to embrace it. Jenny Wheeler: And you do have a title yet? Amy Harmon: I do not have a title. It keeps changing. So nothing yet. I keep thinking the Isle Of White, but I think my publisher’s going to say we need something different than that. So right now, there it is. It is untitled. Jenny Wheeler: Okay. We always like to finish off and we starting to run out of time, by asking do you enjoy interacting with your readers, and where can they find you online? Amy Harmon: I love to interact with my readers. I’m probably the most active on Instagram. It’s the easiest platform for me. I find for me it’s the friendliest platform. There’s less drama there, and I definitely am not interested in interacting in on that level. But I find it Bookstagram I find Instagram to be very to be very lovely. So I’m quite active there. I do have a newsletter and a webpage and I get reader email all the time on my website  – authoramyharmon.com. And I always try to answer unless it’s just nasty and then I don’t answer. But yeah I love to interact with my readers and I love when I get reader email from people that have connections to. Connecting readers and books Because that happens all the time and it’s lovely to connect with the real descendants of some of my historical characters. Jenny Wheeler: Give us an example of one of those. What historical characters have people followed up with you on? Amy Harmon: Oh, I’ve had people contact me that knew Michael Collins or who had parents that knew Michael Collins. And that was really interesting. I had a woman that was married to the nephew of Michael Malone from The Unknown. Beloved. I had many people contact me, about Deborah Sampson from the book, A Girl Called Sampson, about a woman that dressed up as a man during the Revolutionary War and actually fought all the way to the end and ade it all the way to the end without being discovered. A fascinating woman again called Deborah Samson. And that was 250 years ago, but many descendants, six or so people have contacted me, that are Samsons or descendants of hers. And so that was very interesting. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s fantastic. We, mentioned the Benny Lament book. Is there any historical basis for the Benny Lament character? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Singing in Gladys Knight’s choir Amy Harmon: No historical basis in the main characters. Benny Lament and Esther Mine are figments of my imagination. Although that book, I think as much as any, has this sense of reality and of realness and rawness, I actually was fortunate enough to sing with Gladys Knight in her gospel choir for many years. And I got to know Gladys Knight’s story and it was through her that the character Esther Mine was born. I think that sense of reality that really comes through in that book, that sense of real history that comes through, even though the characters are not real people is probably due to my relationship with her. Jenny Wheeler: How did that come about? Amy Harmon: I heard about these tryouts for this gospel choir. I was living in Las Vegas, Nevada at the time, which is where Gladys Knight lives. And she put out word that she was doing this large gospel choir and I didn’t know any better. I wasn’t intimidated. I thought the worst thing that could happen was that I could be turned down. So I went and auditioned and I made it into this choir. And for, like I said, for many years, I traveled around and it was all volunteer members of this gospel choir and, it was just a remarkable experience. Jenny Wheeler: Were you writing at that time? The son who helped Amy into writing Amy Harmon: I was not interestingly enough, it was not until  – oh I take that back. I had written my first novel right towards the end of that period when I was in the choir. I had written it over time and, it wasn’t until my surprise baby Sam was born. The one with the Port Wine stain. He surprised me and took me out of my game and I had to take a look at my life and figure out how to how to do things a little bit differently when he came along so that I could be a stay at home mom. And it was at that point that I dusted off this manuscript I’d written a few years before he was born and figured out how to self-publish. So all of that was at the same time period. But no, it was Sam’s birth that meant I couldn’t travel with the choir anymore. And it was also Sam’s birth that made me dust off this novel I’d written and look into getting it published. I always tell him he’s the reason I’m where I’m at now, 15 years later. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. And do you still sing? Amy Harmon: I don’t sing as much as I used to. I have some health issues that I’m very hoarse all the time. This is as good as it gets on the voice. So I sing a little bit, but not professionally, Jenny Wheeler: But just for your own soul. Amy Harmon: Just for my own enjoyment. Yep. I still sing in church. Jenny Wheeler: Amy, it’s been wonderful talking. We’ve actually run over time because I just have been enjoying it so much. Thank you so much Amy Harmon: I appreciate you and this has been a lovely conversation. If you enjoyed Amy you might also enjoy… Melanie Benjamin’s historic fiction successfully combines romance with thriller plots and famous real life heroines, so its perhaps not surprising her books regularly grace the New York Times and USA Today best seller lists. In this episode Melanie talks about her latest book Mistress of the Ritz, a World War II story based in the landmark Paris hotel taken over by the Nazis. It’s a love story and a suspense thriller all in one. listen to melanie Next Time on Binge Reading New Zealand author. Chris Draper fell in love with the Australian Outback. While working in Adelaide, south Australia and decided it was the perfect setting for his fast paced optimistic techno thriller Goodbye Woomera Belle. And it couldn’t be more topical, revolving as it does around artificial intelligence and inter-governmental tensions between friendly and not so friendly powers. Erin Brightwell is a brilliant young researcher and technician who has done some research that’s essential for national security, being chased by many different entities. It’s a great read and Chris will be on the show in two weeks time. Remember. Binge reading is now fortnightly, and Chris will be on in two weeks. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading and listening. Bye for now.

Best-selling award-winning novelist Sarah Sundin, author of beloved World War II stories, never had an ambition to write. She trained as a pharmacist, she was perfectly happy as a pharmacist, and then she had a dream that wouldn’t let her go. She started jotting down her dream story in pencil in a kiddies notebook and six months later she had 700 pages… Hi I’m you host Jenny Wheeler and today on Binge Reading Sarah talks about her latest daring, dramatic and romantic story, Embers in The London Sky, exploring the war through the eyes of a mother who has lost her child, and a BBC journalist who knows reporting the truth will take him deep into the flames. She tells all about that vivid dream that started it all, and recollects her own family connections with the war we just can’t seem to forget. Our Giveaway – Romance Our giveaway this week is Enemies To Lovers Clean and Wholesome romance. If you can’t resist a good Enemies to Lovers story this one is for you!  Details of where to find the links to these books are in the show notes for this episode, and in the newsletter I send out with each podcast. If you want to join that just go to our website, the joys of binge reading.com. DOWNLOAD FREE ROMANCE ​https://claims.prolificworks.com/gg/INO60jP77KiIo9VCVyGS Buy me a coffee and support the show You can support the production costs for the show by buying me a cup of coffee at Buy Me A buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx  For the cost of a cup of coffee every now and then you can make a big difference! BUY ME A COFFEE And remember – if you enjoy the show leave us a review so others will find us too. Links To Things We Talked About American war correspondent Edward R. Murrow:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_R._Murrow Some of Murrow’s WWII broadcasts: London: First Night of the Blitz https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVXmJC6mPEk From a London Rooftop during the Blitz  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Za2Lus0CkRc From Buchenwald: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlhQvPfYSXk Lofoten Island Raid  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q60pIny5WSo Lofoten Raid:  https://www.royalmarineshistory.com/post/operation-claymore#: Lend-Lease Bill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease Holly Varni, On Moonberry Lake; https://www.hollyvarni.com/ On Moonberry Lake  https://www.hollyvarni.com/hollys-books/ German Abwher; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abwehr Scottish selkie; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selkie Introducing author Sarah Sundin Sarah Sundin, inspirational World War II fiction author Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Sarah. Hello there, Sarah, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with. Sarah Sundin: Thank you, Jenny. It’s great to be here. Jenny Wheeler: Sarah, you’ve been writing these World War II dramas with lots of romance and adventure in them as well since about 2010. But before that, you were a pharmacist. That’s what your training was in. I wonder how you made that switch, and why you were interested in doing so. Sarah Sundin: Honestly, I wasn’t interested in doing so. I was a pharmacist. I enjoyed my job. I, I had small children at the time, and one of the beauties of pharmacy was I was able to do a lot of part-time work. I only worked one day a week and I was able to be at home with my kids. I thought I had the perfect career and then I had an idea for a story. It actually came to me in a dream and I had to write it. I never had anything like that happen to me ever before in my life. I’d always been a reader and all little girls who love to read, imagine themselves writing a book. But I never took it seriously, any more than I did becoming a ballerina. I loved doing ballet, but becoming an author that was, not gonna happen. I never pursued it at all. I love pharmacy. I had this a story idea and I had no idea what I was doing. I’d taken two classes in English in college because I was majoring in chemistry. I had no idea what I was doing. I just started writing freehand. Literally with a number two pencil on my kids’ lined paper from school, because I didn’t wasn’t going to put it in the computer yet. I wrote two books like that. And then I started going to writer’s conferences and I joined a writer’s group. Learning by doing – in 700 pages I learned I was doing everything wrong, but I learned how to fix it. It ended up -I don’t want to say discarding my first two books – but setting them aside. They will never be published and that’s okay. They did their job. And my third novel, I started submitting that. That was my first World War II novel actually. And it took me five years of rejection letters. But eventually I got a contract and that was my first published novel, A Distant Melody, and now I can’t believe it, but I have 16 novels out. It’s been a wild ride. Jenny Wheeler: I do have to follow up by asking you about that dream. Just give us a very quick idea of what the dream was. Sarah Sundin: Oh, it was wild! There was a young man in the hospital and he’d been in a coma and he woke up and the woman he was in love with was there, but neither of them knew they were in love with each other. She ends up blurting out how much she loves him and he’s too drugged up after his accident to really respond. But something about those two characters and their dilemma and this, sudden declaration of love just got me. That day after I had that dream, I woke up and I had three little kids. My youngest was still in diapers, so I was running the carpool for the oldest and taking the middle one to preschool and washing diapers with a third one. The story idea was going and going, and the characters were developing. I was picturing scenes and dialogue in my head, and suddenly I had subplots and side characters. Writing standing in line at Disneyland I knew enough about books to know it was a novel and it was actually rather a disorienting experience because it never happened to me before, and here was this full form novel in my head and all I knew was I liked it enough that I had to get it down. I loved those characters and the dialogue …  the banter was just zing in my head and I wanted to record it so I didn’t lose it. So it was weird, As I said, that book will never get published. It has so many problems with it, but I still have a very soft spot in my heart for it because it got me started and it showed me. I wrote by hand, that entire novel. The rough draft was 700 pages. 700 pages! Ridiculous. I wrote that all in six months by hand, during naps and karate practice and ballet practice, and I don’t know what else I was doing then. I even remember scribbling down a scene while we were standing in line at Disneyland. It was almost this manic experience, where the story had just taken over and I had to get it down. It’s never been like that since. Since then, I’ve had lots of story ideas, but not this just obsessive need to get the story down. I’m convinced now it was God’s way of getting me started on it because I needed a kickstart. Because there’s no way I would’ve done it if I’d had an idea, gee, I should write a novel and I never would’ve happened. So I needed that intense experience to get me started. Sarah Sundin’s first characters sacred Jenny Wheeler: Do you think that some of the aspects of the characters and themes may have carried over into some of your other books? Are there bits of them that have become valuable or useful as you’ve gone along? Sarah Sundin: I think all first time authors, most of us in our very first novel, the hero or the heroine is very much like us, and as you begin to write more and more, you realize you can’t write all your novels with your heroes or heroines with your type, your personality and all your experiences and stuff like that. This novel actually had lots of characters in it, and it was this group of friends, and there were about a dozen really strongly formed characters in that novel, and they were all very different. So it taught me to write from experiences and personality types that weren’t my own. The experience of doing it and getting comfortable writing in another person’s head, that’s what carried me over the characters themselves. I don’t think so. The heroine was a nurse and I ended up having a series about nurses, but she was her own person and she hasn’t carried over. I did end up using the hero. His first name was Tom and I vowed I would never have another Tom because he was the only Tom but I ended up having a Tom in my fourth published novel. So nothing about them was truly sacred there, but they’re still very precious to me because they got me started in this crazy business. Getting to know her characters like friends Jenny Wheeler: It sounds as if they are real people to you. Sarah Sundin: That’s the thing about being an author. Your characters really become real to you. They’re fully fleshed. I liken it to getting to know a friend.  I meet this character and think, oh, that’s an interesting person. I wanna write about them. But I only know little bits and pieces about them. And then as I start to outline – I need to have it all set up before I start my rough draft. So, during the outlining process, I’m interviewing them.  I’m giving them personality tests. I’m filling out my plot chart. I have spreadsheet that I fill out, and as I’m doing this, they become more and more real. It starts off like a pen and ink drawing, and then it becomes like a watercolor or an oil painting. And then when I’m writing the rough draft, then it becomes animated. Then they become. Really real. It’s like getting to know a friend and the more you know that friend, you find new parts to them and you get deeper and you’ll have a friendship that you’ve had for a long time, and suddenly your friend will say something that makes me say “I didn’t know that about you.” My husband and I have been married for 30 years. And he said, yeah, I always wanted to be an engineer. Writing fiction with a God awareness I said, no, you didn’t. You told me you wanted to be a physician. He says I did, but originally, I wanted to be an engineer. And I said “I did not know that about you.” And our son’s an engineer, so I would’ve thought that would’ve come up earlier in our marriage, but it never had. So still after 30 years of marriage, I’m getting to know my husband. It is a very, it’s a similar process with a character. I’m feel like I’m getting to know a friend and with each chapter I dig a little deeper and find out more about them. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. We must get your latest book,  before because you mentioned the word GOD, and you are an inspirational fiction author can you tell us a little bit about that aspect. How does that fit into your book? Sarah Sundin: I write Christian fiction. I am a Christian, so the way I see it is, we talk about a worldview, so we all have a worldview. How we envision the world works and as a Christian, I see God as very interactive with us, with the world around us. And so, my characters interact with God. They pray to God, they learn about God, they learn about themselves. They learn about how they’ve erred and their sins and how they need to change. And God, in a way I don’t want to call him a character in the novel, but he’s always present. And just the way I see the world view with a hopeful ending as opposed to lot of the dystopian stuff that’s oh, the world’s falling pieces and it’s only going to get worse. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} A hope-filled story which ends well And I tend to have a more of a hope-filled viewpoint because of my relationship with God. I can’t imagine not writing that way, with God being part of the world, because I can’t imagine a world without God in it. Jenny Wheeler: Lovely, but you don’t particularly try and evangelize in your books, do you? Sarah Sundin: No, I don’t. I have three characters who have become Christians during the novels. I just finished one that’ll be coming out in 2025. She has a come to faith moment and, but in general, my characters are people who are already Christians and they’re learning how to be better Christians, because none of us are perfect and we’re all works in progress and growing in our journey. It is very much keyed into who I am as a Christian. I do a lot of teaching, so I teach women’s bible studies. I teach Sunday school to fourth and fifth graders. What I do within the church is I’m basically working with people who are generally already Christians and helping them grow in their walk. With my characters, I have the same impact on their lives. As the author, I’m helping them grow in their walks with God. Though as I said, I have had a couple of characters who were definitely not believers at the beginning of the stories, and they do come to faith. I try not to do a sermon and the character falling to their knees. And I try not to do like a conversion scene. Conversion in a cockpit I think my favorite one the hero is actually, he’s a pilot and it’s in the sky above us, and he’s just messed up and his whole life is messed up and he is actually cussing. I don’t show the cuss words on the page, but he is cussing and cussing and something, I can’t remember what it was he says to himself, but he just realizes that God is the answer. And that because he’d been raised in the church, he just never believed it. And he actually hits the cockpit and starts bleeding and he thought of the blood of Jesus. And then I cut to black and then I show him a little later. But, I actually have my conversion scene with him cussing up a storm in the cockpit of his P 51 Mustang. Jenny Wheeler: In the Second World War, that was probably a pretty vulnerable place to be. Sarah Sundin: It really was. Jenny Wheeler: Let’s talk about Embers in the London Sky, which is the latest one of your books. You do promise that they’re dramatic, that they’re daring, and that they’re romantic and they are. This one traces two key characters. Alida who is a mother trying to find her child who was lost in a chaotic scenes in a middle of a German bombing raid, and Hugh, who is a BBC war correspondent. They meet and Hugh starts to help her to find her son. Jenny Wheeler: I admit that I didn’t really think much about the children would’ve obviously got lost during a chaotic war scene. And you make it clear in the notes at the back of your book that this was a very real thing. Tell us a little about the numbers that were affected. Millions displaced in World War II Sarah Sundin: I’m afraid I actually don’t have numbers on that, and I’m not sure we’ll ever get those. There were so many people who were displaced during the war and after the war. There were just millions of people on the road. People being released from the concentration camps. People who’d been bombed out of their houses all throughout Europe. Soldiers who were trying to get back home. So there were just millions of displaced people in Europe. But this story takes place early in the war during the invasion of the Netherlands and Belgium and France, and there were at least well over a million people on the road as the Nazis invaded. And there were instances where parents who were on foot were desperate for their children and would thrust them into cars thinking that at least their child had a better chance to get away in a car than they would on foot. And then after the war or after the invasion, everything settled down and people were going back home. This is mid-1940 and they couldn’t find their children and the newspapers in Paris were filled with their classified ads with people trying to find their children. That broke my heart as a mom. That’s what inspired that story. I don’t know any numbers of how many people were separated because of the chaos of war. I don’t know if there are any numbers. Later on in the story, I mentioned some numbers in Britain where they evacuate the children from the cities to the countryside. Children were constantly on the move And in the first couple days of the war, they evacuated one and a half million mothers and children to the countryside, which is a phenomenal logistical feat. They basically took over the railway system and just filed them- all the schools went in together and mothers with young children came together. A million and a half people were moved. It’s rather incredible feat. Because of what we call the Phony War, where after the defeat of Poland the Western Front pretty much went quiet until April and May of 1940 when the Germans went on the move with the Blitz again. There was this period about seven, eight months where there really wasn’t much happening and all these children who’d been evacuated to the countryside and their parents said their children are miserable. We’re miserable to not having them with us. The bombs aren’t falling, so let’s bring our kids home again. All throughout the war, there was this tension being between the families who wanted to be together and the government, which really wanted the children in safety so they weren’t going get killed. As things got worse, they would have another campaign to get the children to evacuate and then things would quiet down when children would come home. All throughout the war this went on, it wasn’t like children evacuated on September 1st, 1939 and didn’t come back till VE day. There was this back and forth and I found that very interesting. Some children never found their way back home Jenny Wheeler: I guess there must have been some children who were never reunited with their families, even if their parents were still alive. It just would be the case, wouldn’t it? Sarah Sundin: Yes. Even in Britain some of these children came from, bad homes to begin with, and so their parents really didn’t mind having them out of the house. And some of them actually became very bonded to their evacuee homes in the countryside. And the foster families really loved their kids. There were some situations where the kids would either not go home again or some would run away and try to go back to the countryside. But for everyone who did that, there were children who ran away from the country and went back to London because they wanted to be with their families. There was just so much going on, and especially a lot of these lower income families. The parents – both were working – and oftentimes they depended on the school aged children to watch the little ones. When the school aged kids were evacuated, that put a hardship on them, so they wanted those kids back for the childcare. There were so many things that go on and we see these images of the children getting on the trains and we think, oh, it’s sad, but thank goodness they’re being safe. But when you actually dig into it, imagine what the children were going through. Imagine what the families were going through. Central character searching for he small son Imagine where the foster families are going through in the countryside, and suddenly you have children in your home and they’re homesick and maybe they’re wetting the bed and they have behavior issues that you’re not used to because they’re city kids and you’re a nice clean country family. There was this culture clash and some of the foster families were really willing to have the kids. They were super excited and very compassionate. And others were neglect neglectful, some were abusive, because people are people. There was this broad range of things that happened to the children. And that’s what I wanted to show in the novel as Alida gets involved, working with the Ministry of Health, which was responsible for the evacuations, as she’s starting to talk to these evacuees and she’s talking to the families back in London and she’s talking to the foster families and the billeting officers who are responsible for keeping everything together in the countryside. She’s starting to see these issues and it opens her mind. It helped her learn more compassion as she’s watching these people go through it, and it was a way to help her grow as meanwhile, she’s looking for her son. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. So that’s definitely a very important part of the story. The other part is obvious is the whole scene with the covering of the war correspondents. At this stage of the war, the US had not actually entered action, but there were some very important US correspondents sending postings from London, telling the American population what was happening. Give us an idea of why they were so important. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The importance of war correspondents Sarah Sundin: Well, America was obviously geographically isolated. This was before TV. Radio was actually a very new medium. This was the first major war that was covered by radio. In World War I there was no radio which, I dunno why it struck me as, oh, I didn’t know that, but I didn’t know that. It was a new medium and the radio correspondents and the radio broadcast stations were still learning how to use this new medium well. The BBC was really very much a premier organization. They were really the first big radio station, and they had done a lot of technological advances and were the first ones to do outdoor broadcasts as opposed to being in the studio with the perfect soundproofed room and all that. They were doing a lot of technological and broadcasting innovations. They’d started TV before the war, which I surprised me again. I think of that as real image, a post-war thing. But they actually had brought TV broadcasts before the war. They had to stop during the war. Britain, had one broadcasting company, the BBC, and the entire country gets that. And they had some regional stations – in America, we call them channels, but they had regional stations too. But they were all part of the BBC. Now, in America, partly because it’s geographically so widespread, but also because of this, capitalistic free enterprise, anything goes at atmosphere. There are radio stations everywhere. There are multiple networks. There were small local broadcasts. Companies that were just their own little towns, wherever. And then you had the big networks like NBC and CBS and Mutual. It was definitely a wild west atmosphere and a lot of competition. And of course competition means innovation. The radio star – Edward R. Murrow There were a lot of American innovations too. But where it became really important during the war was Edward R Murrow with CBS was a very popular correspondent. He had amazing voice, just beautiful deep timber and he way of speaking in simple and profound sentences, short and sweet and deep. And he went to London and because he didn’t have the same sensor censorship, over him as the BBC correspondents. He was able to do some more things than the BBC corresponds were able to do. He did some live broadcasts. The BBC correspondents weren’t allowed to do some of that early in the war because those broadcasts could be picked up in Germany. So if they’re talking about bombs falling into Trafalgar Square, then the Luftwaffe can say, aha, our bombs hit Trafalgar Square. Good job on the navigation, or let’s switch, we were off a little bit on a navigation so they could use those live broadcasts to improve their navigation. They had to do delayed broadcasts, but the situation was different in America. So he was recording. There’s this very famous recording of him in Trafalgar Square during a bombing raid, and you can hear the air raid sirens. He pauses. He doesn’t just talk the whole time. He pauses and picks up those noises. He puts his microphone down to the ground and hears the footsteps of the people on their way to the air raid shelter. And he is commenting, they’re not running, they’re walking very slowly because they’ve got that beautiful Blitz spirit, the calm spirit of the British and these broadcasts were heard in America. Before then the American people were split about whether or not they wanted to join the war, but his broadcasts helped push him over the edge because they saw Britain with the bombs falling and they felt it, and they felt those people and their despair, they also really heard their courage and it really helped tip the public opinion toward the allies and toward joining the war. A BBC correspondent pushing back the rules Obviously, it wasn’t till Pearl Harbor that America had joined the war, but this type of thing helped. Roosevelt passed the Lend-Lease bill, which was vital to getting to helping Britain fight the war. I was able to be a part of it. So here’s Hugh, who’s a BBC correspondent, and he is trying to record, but he has some limits on him. And censorship isn’t the right word because the government wasn’t telling the BBC what they had to broadcast, but they were allowing them to self-censor, but they were being very careful because they didn’t want to give any comfort to the Germans. He’s pushing back against these limits that are on him. Getting into these wonderful debates with an appropriate level of discretion and meanwhile, we actually have Edward R Murrow in a couple of scenes and showing his broadcasts to just show what an international city London was during the war. And how the British especially how the Blitz really helped persuade the Americans that the allied side was the right side, the only side to be on. Jenny Wheeler: Some of those broadcast are still available on the web today, aren’t they? I’m sure that people would love to hear some of those, so I’ll make sure that I get the links from you and we’ll put them in the show note for this episode. You do have you a little later him covering an invasion in Norway. And that was where he was able to do a live broadcast. And also there is a scene where one of the free French broadcasters who evacuated from Paris when the Germans took over is blamed because he mentions a particular ship, which is then later sunk by the Germans, and he’s blamed for. Giving them the ship’s location in a broadcast. Tell us a bit about those two episodes. ‘Walls talk’ and the Vichy French were listening Sarah Sundin: The situation with the French reporter was- I made that up, but it was based similar things that did happen. There was a situation where the Allies and the British and the Free French went to, Dakar in Sierra Leone and they were trying to invade there because it was run by the Vichy French and the Free French wanted to take it over. And there were French sailors heard in the bars talking about Dakar. Dakar, and when they invaded the Vichy forces were ready for them. There was a lot of talk about, oh some spies must have heard it or it was broadcast. And so there was the sense of, oh this information got to the Germans. So there was always that concern. The European services of the VDC, which was, a division of the BBC and they were really very freewheeling too because they were all run, they were all separate departments and they weren’t. They didn’t fall completely under the BBC. They were all, a lot of ’em were self-governing. They had some British BBC personnel involved, but the French section had a lot of free French reporters. And so they were, there were a lot of pushing back with all these different nations with their own stations that were, they were broadcasting to occupied Europe. As far as the Lofoten raid, which was in Norway, it was a one day raid where they, there was a second one later on in the war, which wasn’t in my novel, but it was in oh, March, April, 1941. And there was a small group of Norwegian and British commandos who went to this. Lofoten Islands in Norway and they just came in completely surprised the Germans The attack on a small Norwegian island There was only a small garrison there. They took all the Germans prisoner, took them back to England, They took all quislings, the Norwegian traitors, they took them back to England, and they took a bunch of Norwegian Patriots who wanted to fight for the Allies and volunteered, and they came back to England and they were able to fight. They destroyed all, these fish oil factories that were used to help make ammunition for the Germans. It was a big morale booster. There were some problems. I didn’t cover this in the book because they didn’t actually clear it with the Norwegian government in Exile and they were not happy with it. There were some repercussions when the Germans came back to the Lofoten Islands. They imprisoned a lot of people, put a lot of people in concentration camps, so there were some really bad repercussions, which of course, Hugh would not have known about. This was not something he would’ve even heard about, but it was a great big morale booster in England. And he actually records he can’t record live because he is in Norway and there’s no way for them to broadcast live from Norway. But he records it on discs, he is recording it live and then they take the discs back and they were able to play it later. That sense of live coverage where you can hear the sounds and there was an actual Crown film unit is there. There is some video footage of that raid and I used that as a source for Hugh’s report. And I have links to that broadcast and to a couple of Edward r Murrow’s broadcast on my website. And I’ll give you both of those links after this. But it was really interesting to watch. Sarah Sundin’s World War II series Jenny Wheeler: The last few books you’ve done have been standalone novels, but before that you did a number of series, and I just want to mention them, especially to American readers if they are interested in this period, because you have one called Sunrise at Normandy, which is about three brothers who in various ways are linked through the D-Day landings, and another called Wings of Glory, as you’ve mentioned with the B 17, and three brothers who flew in the B 17 bombers. You’ve also got one about nurses, you do cast a light on the American involvement in the war in a way that perhaps some other writers haven’t done, haven’t you? Sarah Sundin: Yes, that’s where I started. I was really working – since I am an American – I have an American voice, and it seemed natural. The first the Wings of Glory series, I actually had the brothers coming from the town where I was living. It made it an easy way for me to get their voices down. As I’ve been writing more and more the last four novels, the standalones some of them have had European main characters like Embers in the London sky. We have a Dutch refugee and we have a British journalist. I had some American side characters, but I didn’t have any American main characters, which is the first time I’ve done that. In a couple other books, I’ve had European main characters. The next two books on this contract – it’s not a series, but they’re loosely related -there are three Dutch cousins. The next book is about a latest cousin Cilla and the next one about her cousin Garrett. And then there are the Scottish hero and the next book, and a heroine from the island of Jersey in the third book. I have once again no American main character. So it’s been fun. A family link to the war on both sides Jenny Wheeler: You have a family link to the war as well, don’t you? Tell us a little about that. Sarah Sundin: My grandfather was in the US Navy. He was a what they called a pharmacist mate. Now they call them hospital corpsman or a medic basically. He was taking care of people in hospitals and he was a storyteller and his brother… Oh my. He was a character and he was a B 17 bomber pilot, which is why I had my first series follow these brothers who were B 17 bomber pilots. His B 17 flew into Pearl Harbor during the attack, which was incredible. And he then flew a tour of duty from Australia, and finished that tour of duty and then flew another tour of duty from England with the eighth Air Force. He had quite the career. He ended up at the end of the war, he was on in Eisenhower’s headquarters with the Supreme headquarters, Allied Expeditionary Force. My other grandfather was unable to fight. He had a heart murmur from rheumatic heart disease as a child, but he was a professor of German and he was a native German speaker. He was able to use his German language skills to help train American soldiers to go in after the Occupation. They did everything from interrogate prisoners to help displaces people. He was using his skills for the Allied cause, which is really I love that. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s terrific. Look, we’ve had a good talk about these books and we’re starting to run out of time. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Sarah Sundin is reading now Turning to Sarah as reader, tell us what you like to read for your personal pleasure. And if you’ve got anything you’d like to recommend to listeners. Sarah Sundin: Oh my goodness of course, every writer loves to read. I am super behind on my reading right now. I’ve had a little bit of a family crisis in the last few months and so I have barely done any reading at all except my basic research to get my novel written. I am halfway through Holly Varni’s book called On Moonberry Lake, which is absolutely delightful. And I’ve said that in every interview I’ve done for this book in the last 23 months because I’ve been reading it so slowly. I’ve had almost no free time, but I’m enjoying Holly’s book and it’s fun because she’s a friend. I met her at writer’s conferences long before she was published, so it’s fun to see her being published. Jenny Wheeler: When you do have a little bit of time, what does your taste extend to? Sarah Sundin: Because of being a published author, I get a lot of requests to read World War II books, especially for endorsement. And World War II is very popular right now, so I’ve been reading a lot of World War II fiction. If it were just me, I would read a lot of historical fiction from a variety of eras. I love time traveling, if you will, in a novel. But I also like contemporary books. I like the occasional fantasy novel, or thrillers, I like to try different things. But a lot of my reading right now is almost I don’t want to say assignments because it makes it sound like it’s miserable, but it’s more I need to read this book for endorsement. I have a lot of books to read for endorsement right now. Research – and the task of getting it right Jenny Wheeler: You probably read it from a point of view where your judgements are a little bit more succinct in that area than the average reader because you know so much about the period. Do you find sometimes that you’re finding yourself saying, oh, I know that’s not right. Sarah Sundin: Most of what I find now the level of research for novels has become such a high bar. The work that’s being done by historical novelists right now is phenomenal. In general, I would say 90% of the books I read that are World War II, I can say, wow, they really did the research. I can tell. It’s tin he detail, the big details, the little details, just the knowledge, that deep knowledge of the era. And I’m just seeing such a wonderful depth knowledge of the knowledge base. Where I do see errors, every once in a while I’ll read one where I can tell they have not done their research. They’ve read two or three books and try to write book from those books usually don’t get an endorsement. I may enjoy the story, but I personally can’t endorse it. What I will notice is, occasional minor things, and they’re so minor that only people like me are going to pick up on them. And it’s also the type of thing that I know I make the same type of minor errors in my book, because sometimes it’s not about what you know or what you don’t know, but knowing what questions to ask. Sometimes you don’t know the question to ask it. I’ll use my mother’s example. My mother was very upset reading a novel, a historical novel, where the heroine is applying mascara and she’s using a mascara wand, and my mother was incensed. She says, oh, they didn’t have mascara wands back then. They had little pot and you dipped your finger in. She was describing how they did it. The secret of asking the right questions And I was stunned because I’ve always used a mascara wand. It never occurred to me that there was any other way to apply mascara. If I was writing a historical character and I wanted to have her apply mascara before I talked to my mother, I would’ve had her using a wand because it never occurred to me to ask that question how did you apply mascara in 19 x, x, X. Unless to ask that question, you may not find the answer. A lot of these are very minor questions. I saw one where it was a novel set in Germany during the war, and the heroine is wearing bright red lipstick. And I had just researched a novel set in Germany. I said, oh no, she couldn’t do that. The Nazis had outlawed makeup. So she definitely wouldn’t have had bright red lipstick. She might have some powder that she’d hidden in away, but she wouldn’t dare wear bright red lipstick. But if you hadn’t thought to ask that question, you wouldn’t know that was a thing. So those types of things, when I read them in a novel, I chuckle to myself and I don’t say anything. I’m not going to contact the author. It’s such a minor thing and there are only three people in the world who will catch it, and most of us know that it’s so minor, it’s not worth it. Money muddles one reader wouldn’t forgive Jenny Wheeler: It’s probably possible that once that book is published, one of her readers will tell her that. Sarah Sundin: Oh gosh, yes. And when I make an error and I make at least one because I’m sure there are way more errors in there that people just aren’t catching or catching and not contacting me, but at least one glaring error in each novel. And that’s God’s way of keeping me humble. And there was one where I had gotten the conversion of British money, English money at the time, these shillings and pence and it doesn’t make any sense to me as an American at all. I read that’s nonsense. It’s crazy stuff. And I had found in a book ironically, a book I bought at the Imperial War Museum that had the conversion and I used that. A British reader of a certain age has contacted me and said, Sarah, I loved your book, however, and I said, I know. I know I got the wrong number of shillings to a crown. most of them are very forgiving. But I did one reader who said, I can never trust you again. I will never read your books again. I can’t trust you. I felt awful. I made a mistake and I was thinking how many facts I’d had in that book, and I had one wrong, and I was a little ticked off with that one, but on the other hand, I know how people are and you get something wrong like that and you violate the trust. I messed that one up. It’s been fixed now in the more recent versions. But yeah, we’re human. We make mistakes, but I try. What Sarah has planned for next 12 months Jenny Wheeler: A book from the Imperial War Museum. You might have felt you could trust it. Look what is next for you as an author. Just give us an idea of what you are working on over the next 12 months. Sarah Sundin: I just turned in my next novel. It’s set in Scotland during the war, and she is a Dutch refugee who becomes she becomes a German spy to escape. She thinks that she’s going to ditch the Germans the second she lands in England, but she gets captured immediately by our kilt wearing Scotsman, who is a naval officer, and he turns her in and MI 5 turns her to become a double agent. She’s immediately set up to Scotland to send false messages back to Germany about British ship movements. And she’s assigned a naval liaison who is the same man who captured her. It’s been a fun story to write. So that one’s been turned in. I’m waiting for my edits on that. And then I’m getting started on my next book, which will be set in on the island of Jersey during the war. So that’ll be fun. The Channel Islands MI 5’s Double Cross spy system Jenny Wheeler: So that one you’ve just mentioned, what was the nub idea for that? Was there really someone who did come to England as a German spy and then turned. Sarah Sundin: The MI5 had what they call the Double Cross system and there were about three dozen German spies… I shouldn’t say German because most of them were other nationalities, but they were sent by Germany. There were Dutch, Norwegians Spaniards, French, Poles, Czechs and Germans. And Belgians. And they would send them to England. MI 5 actually captured all of the German agents were sent to England except one, and that one ran out of money and committed suicide. So he did no harm at all, but they would turn them become doubled agents. Those who wouldn’t turn were either imprisoned or executed. But some of the people, some of the agents who came were like my heroin Cilla, who actually were not Nazis and were using the German Abwehr as a free ticket to England to get out of occupied Europe. There were some that were allied with the Resistance. There were some who were very sketchy. The nucleus of that idea actually was my youngest son is very much into mythology. And when I told him I wanted to write something set in Scotland, he says, oh mom, you should use some of the mythology. He started telling me about the legend of the silkie, which is mythological creature, which looks like a seal. But when she comes to land, she strips away her seal skin and she’s a beautiful woman. And the men see her immediately fall in love with her, but she wants to go back to the sea. They can capture her and keep her by hiding her seal skin. And then she’s trapped on land and she has to stay. And when he told me that story, I was immediately picturing this agent landing at night. Her seal skin is the rubber dinghy that she’s come with. The Scotsman captures her, and by stealing her boat, she’s trapped. But actually, of course I had to make her a sympathetic heroine. She obviously can’t be a Nazi. She has to be an Allie. The nucleus of that idea this image of this woman landing by boat at night and this man capturing her. And that became the scene that drove that novel. Every novel for me has a big scene that I’m either working toward or that kind of drives the novel, and that was the scene for me. Where readers can find Sarah Sundin online Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Look, we should now finish because we have run over time. Although it’s been so fascinating, we’d just like to know, do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Sarah Sundin: I love hearing from my readers. You can find me on my website sarahsundin.com. Subscribe to my email newsletter. I’m also on Facebook Instagram, Twitter, or X or whatever we’re calling it this week. Come find me. Jenny Wheeler: Thanks so much Sarah. It’s been fascinating. Sarah Sundin: Thanks to you too. Bye. If you enjoyed Sarah you might also enjoy… Mark Ellis and his Blitz thrillers Mark Ellis’s World War II London is a place where crime flourishes alongside the heroism of firefighters and fighter pilots  and his charismatic Detective Frank Merlin deals with rapists, and racketeers amidst the carnage of falling bombs.. LISTEN TO Mark eLLIS Next Time on Binge Reading Amy Harmon grew up in a remote Utah valley very close to where the famed outlaw Butch Cassidy lived, and has always been fascinated by the folk lore surrounding his “Robin Hood” reputation.  She’s far too young to have seen the famous movie starring Paul Newman and Robert Redford first time round, but she excavated the history and shed a whole new light on the story in her latest book. The Outlaw Noble Salt is released today, and it’s a remarkable story that one critic “said “imbues the Butch Cassidy myth with even more passion and intrigue” that would have fallen flat if not handled with care. Lucky for readers that Harmon is up to the task.” That’s next time on Binge Reading… Just a reminder – you can support us by buying me a coffee, and or leaving a review… Word of mouth is still the best way for readers to find books they will love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

For Easter 2024. Fiction set in Biblical Times. From New York Times bestselling author Angela Hunt comes a compelling new series set in the New Testament era. Her latest book, Sisters of Corinth, is a captivating story of love, sacrifice, and the quest for power, set against the backdrop of ancient Greece. Angela is a prolific author in a wide range of genres, from fiction set in Biblical times to historical fiction in other periods and contemporary romance All About the Binge Reading Podcast Welcome to the Joys of Binge Reading, the show for anyone who ever got to the end of a great book and wanted to read the next instalment. We interview successful series authors and recommend the best in mystery, suspense, historical and romance series, so you’ll never be without a book you can’t foot down. You’ll find this episode’s show notes, a free ebook, and lots more information at The Joys of Binge Reading.com. And now here’s our show. Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and on Binge Reading today we present Angela’s fresh take on the Easter story. Two sisters – daughters of a top ranking Corinth magistrate – take up very different ambitions and life paths. In this episode she tells why readers can always “expect the unexpected” in her books  and talks about her latest series, featuring fledgling believers who came to faith through the teachings of the apostle Paul. This week’s Giveaway – March Madness Our free books give away is Mad March Mysteries, and that includes cozies and thrillers, whatever level of mystery your tastes might dictate.  The offer is for a limited time as always, so get in now. The offer includes Poisoned Legacy, Book #1 in the Of Gold & Blood mystery series get free mysteries ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/marchmysterythriller/4nqbm64mq3 And just before we get to Angela. A blatant appeal for your help in defraying the cost of producing the show. Buy me a cup of coffee on www.buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx Like a little kiss, and you’ll just help me get through the day. BUY ME A COFFEE And one more housekeeping reminder. If you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Where to find items discussed in this episode The Sisters of Corinth: (On pre-order) https://www.amazon.com/Sisters-Corinth-Emissaries-Book-Testament-ebook/dp/B0CTKQNM2S/ The Apostle’s Sister: https://www.amazon.com/Apostles-Sister-Jerusalem-Road-Book-ebook/dp/B09LWNJK4L/ Unspoken: https://www.amazon.com/Unspoken-Angela-Hunt-ebook/dp/B08LTXRJ8D/ Koko The signing gorilla: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla)#: Koko’s trainer Francine “Penny” Patterson:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francine_Patterson The Bible Verse that inspired it: https://www.bible.com/bible/compare/JOB.12.7-12 The gladiator training arena: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludus_Magnus#: What Angela is reading: People Of The Book – by Geraldine Brooks, https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/1379961 Where to find Angela Hunt online Website: Angela Hunt books.com Facebook: Angela Hunt, novelist: https://www.facebook.com/angela.e.hunt/ Substack Newsletter: Angelahunt.substack.com Introducing author Angela Hunt Angela Hunt – fiction set in Biblical times – with five million in sales…. But now here’s Angela. Hello there, Angela, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Angela Hunt: Thank you. I’m delighted to be here. It feels so weird because for me it’s Wednesday, and for you it’s Thursday. I feel like we’re in a time loop or something. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s right. Just one of those things when we’re on different sides of the world. I’m in New Zealand and you are in Florida. That’s right. Isn’t it? Angela Hunt: Yes, it is. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Now you’ve written 165 plus novels covering a wide range of historical periods, mostly focused in biblical times. You’ve won many awards including a Christie Award, and you say your books are for people who “expect the unexpected.” I wonder what you mean by that motto, which is at the top of your website. What can people expect when you say “expect the unexpected?” Angela Hunt: One of my pet peeves when I read a novel is if I can figure out the end, especially when I’m still in the beginning and I will often flip to the end to see if my instincts were right. And when they are, I just feel like what’s the point of reading this? And I remember once I was reading a murder mystery. I don’t even know if the crime – I think somebody had been murdered and a handyman walks in and the writer just happened to mention that he was left-handed. I said: Oh, he’s the murderer then, and it’s going be proven eventually that only a left-handed person could have done it. There was the clue right there, but it may as well have had like flashing lights around it. And I thought, okay, I’m not reading this one. Like I’m not even finishing this one. Yes. Fiction set in biblical times preferred term Jenny Wheeler: It’s funny because I have heard the criticism from people who aren’t believers about ‘what’s the point?’ We all know how the story of Jesus ends. So what’s the point of even investigating it? How do you keep it interesting when we do know how the story ends? Angela Hunt: Most of my, it’s called biblical fiction but I really even hate the term because if it’s biblical, it should not be fictional. I like to call it historical fiction set in biblical times, but that’s rather a mouthful, isn’t it? Anyway, my stories really aren’t about Jesus per se. They are about people he met and what went on in their lives and how it influenced them. And some of them are fictional people. Some of them are mentioned in the Bible, but only briefly. I love spinning their stories and those I hope, always have unexpected outcomes. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, it’s interesting. I interviewed Tessa Afshar at Christmas as one of our Christmas authors, and she made exactly the same distinction. She wanted her books to be seen as fiction set in biblical times, so you’ve on the same page there. I think it’s also that sensitivity about not wanting to assume things about real biblical characters. We’re going to talk a little bit later on when we get into this about the Apostle Paul’s sister because one of the books you’ve published recently is The Apostle’s Sister and she is a real character, but she’s mentioned only in passing. Telling the story of the apostle’s sister I’m interested to hear you talk about how you build up a story around a character like that, but we will get to that. The latest novel that we are focusing on at the moment is The Sisters of Corinth, and this is in a new series called the Emissaries. It’s the second in that series. Tell us a bit about the Emissary series. I think you’ve said they are a series featuring “fledgling believers who have come to faith through the teachings of the Apostle Paul.” This is the second in the series. How many are you planning in this series for starters. Angela Hunt: There are only going to be three in the Emissary series. I found myself a few years back. I started writing a lot of Old Testament stories, and then I moved into the intertestamental period – that 400 years between the Old Testament and the New Testament, mainly because I knew very little about it. That was the time of the Maccabees. Cleopatra fell into that time span. I wanted to know more about it. I was curious. I wrote four books set in that time period, and then I wrote another four books set in the lifetime of Jesus, where he’s just a peripheral character. And as you mentioned, The Apostle’s Sister was the last one in that series. And then I thought, okay, if I am doing this chronologically, the next thing would be the Gentiles, because Paul took the gospel to the Gentile cities, and let me tell you, they were a lot rowdier than the Jews were. I’ve just finished the third book and final book in that series. I handed it in a couple of weeks ago. I was fascinated. I’ve written about Ancient Rome before, but it is just such a fascinating society and so much of it has come into our world and our system of government today. So much survives them. So anyway, The Sisters of Corinth, what is that about? It starts out like a Cinderella story. You’ve got this important new government official, he’s a senator of Rome and he’s going to be the chief, the governor of the province that Corinth is the capital of, Achaea, I think it was. He’s going to be the governor. There’s a local magistrate who has two daughters. One is his stepdaughter, one’s his biological daughter, and he wants to marry one of those girls off to the governor’s son because that will put him in a very good and important position. Worshipping Aphrodite had a creepy side He’ll be like the governor’s right-hand man. One of the daughters happens to be a new convert to Christianity. The other one worships the Roman gods, particularly Aphrodite, who she starts to worship when she decides she wants to get married the governor’s son, because Aphrodite was the goddess of love. There’s a definite culture clash. And as it happens, wouldn’t he pick the sweet quiet one instead of the loud and flamboyant one? It’s really a rivalry story between these two sisters and everything they go through. It. It’s like Cinderella, run amuck. If Cinderella had not fit her foot into that slipper. Jenny Wheeler: That’s right. And with this character of Prima, you get some fascinating detail about the goddess Aphrodite and what followers of Aphrodite had to do. I wondered how important that research side of things was to you and whether you enjoy doing it. Angela Hunt: I did find it was a little creepy because, even the Bible says, those images of those gods, many of them were inhabited by demons. And so the more a person gave themself over to the worship of this false God, the more they were opening themselves up to the influence of demons. I enjoyed the research, but it gets, it really gets a little creepy at some point, and I don’t want to go too far into that. Jenny Wheeler: And what kind of documents are there these days that give you some of that inside knowledge about that kind of thing? Curse tablets in Ancient Rome Angela Hunt: They have found these curse tablets you used to in Ancient Rome. You could go to a certain shop and buy a very thin piece of copper or bronze, and you could write out with a stylus by pressing into it curses upon your enemies. Then you offer that as a prayer to your chosen God, and then you wrap it up very tightly and put this curse tablet under your enemy’s bed or buried outside his house or something. And so yes, my, my bad girl does that and many other things in an effort to win the love of the guy she wants to marry. She is a very bad girl. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve done a tremendous amount of study. I think you’ve got a doctorate, haven’t you? I should be calling you Dr. Hunt. Angela Hunt: Yes, I actually got two doctorates in, one in biblical literature and one in theology. I just love to study. Jenny Wheeler: I asked myself, how on earth did you manage to do all that level of study and still write nearly a hundred and 70 books? Angela Hunt: Oh, time management. Let’s chalk it up to that. Jenny Wheeler: We’re going to ask you about a typical writing day when we get into this a little bit further. So maybe we’ll get a few tips. Now you do also, as you’ve mentioned, take true historical characters like Paul or Priscilla or Aquila in these books that we are discussing, and you, also create the fictional ones, that satellite around them. How do you balance that fact and fiction side of things, and how important is the historical accuracy to you? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Logical, plausible and available key to story telling Angela Hunt: I believe historical accuracy is very important. I try never, ever to contradict the historical record as far as we know. My fictional people are free to do whatever is A. Logical, and B. Plausible, and C. Available. I try to know everything in that society so I can plot out a rational course for the fictional characters and the historical people. I try to keep them true to what we know of their history. But when you go that far back, a lot of times we don’t know exactly. The book I just handed in was set in Rome during the reign of Nero, and of course, both Paul and the Apostle Peter were killed under Nero’s reign. And so I had to write both of those deaths and felt terrible doing it. I felt like I was killing them all over again, but I took educated guesses as to what they would’ve been like and when they would’ve occurred. Jenny Wheeler: And in The Sisters of Corinth also there is a key character that helps with the plot development, a gladiator. Once again, I felt you got an insight into the culture of the time and the gladiators struck me as being a little bit like a matador or a soccer player in our time where he could have huge fame and riches and then almost instantly it could be taken away overnight. That was also very interesting to me. Did you find that an interesting part to research? Angela Hunt: Yes. I was always fascinated with gladiators. Even before the movie Gladiator came out, which was of course hugely popular, but it’s just – It seems so contradictory because first they were slaves. They had no personal freedom, so they had to do whatever their master said. But if a man was big and strong they might find themselves in the in the arena and going to the Ludus for training, et cetera. Of course they were motivated, because if they didn’t fight to win, they died in the sand. They were all highly motivated, yet the people idolized them, just like we idolize sports heroes today. The only difference is, and I hope it stays a big difference, is that we don’t allow our athletes to kill each other. Although sometimes watching the fans in the stand, I wonder if we’re really that far away from what the Romans experienced. All roads lead to Rome for the finale Jenny Wheeler: And I get the sense, I’ve read it even in The Apostle’s Sister, although it’s not in The Emissaries series, and I hope we are not giving anything away, but I’ve got a feeling that things were going to climax in Rome. The end of the Sisters of Corinth, we won’t give it away, but it does seem as if some of the characters in that book are going to be journeying to Rome. And you get the feeling with Paul’s sister that she might be going to see her brother in Rome as well. So could we expect that in one of these later books, those characters are going to meet up. Angela Hunt: When I was writing the third book, I brought back characters from Book one and book two, and they all meet together in Rome and some survive and some do not. But the Lord’s purpose works through it all. So that’s the important thing. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Now we’ve mentioned several times, The Apostle’s Sister. Tell us what we know of her from the biblical account, and then how did you go about creating a whole book around that? Because we only know a tiny amount. There’s only a tiny hint of her existence in the Bible, isn’t there? The apostle Paul’s nephew saves him Angela Hunt: There’s only one mention of her and really there’s a mention of her and her son, who was Paul’s nephew. But we also know that Paul was raised, he was from Tarsus. And by researching Tarsus, I realized that Paul’s family – of course they were devoutly Jewish and they were Pharisees and they were Roman citizens. Paul had inherited Roman citizenship, which means that his family had to be in. in good favor of the governor of that area. They must have been held in high esteem. Almost every Jewish young man of that social class would’ve gone to Jerusalem to study Torah under the leading rabbis. And so that’s what Paul did. And Paul’s sister married a young man, so she also ended up in Jerusalem. All the Bible tells us is there was a point when Paul was arrested in Jerusalem and he was held at the prison there, the Fortress Antonia, and a bunch of. Zealots or the religious authorities took a vow that they weren’t going to eat until they had killed Paul. And Paul’s little nephew, I don’t know how little he was, but Paul’s nephew heard about it, ran and told his mother, Paul’s sister, and she told him, you need to go tell the authorities. They were able to tell the Roman guards who gathered around Paul and safeguarded him and took him to Caesarea and got him out of that hot bed of trouble in Jerusalem. Paul’s nephew and his sister worked together to save Paul’s life in that situation. I thought, okay, she’s there. We never really thought about Paul having a sister, so I thought she must have an interesting story. I decided I would take a stab at telling it. An amazing favorite character Jenny Wheeler: Yes, and you do get the feeling from that biblical account, even just that one verse, that the nephew probably was an adolescent. They probably wouldn’t let a kid into a jail and even to gather the news that he did either that bit of gossip, that he probably was old enough to be hanging around listening to male talk somewhere. So probably early to mid-adolescence probably. Angela Hunt: Yes. Jenny Wheeler: Have you got a favorite time period? And also, is there any character that of these many books you’ve written that really impacted on you and has affected you even till today? Angela Hunt: I do Ancient Rome just because I find it so fascinating and it seems so similar to even the era that we’re living in today. How people have pretty much put God aside and we’re more interested in seeking pleasure, and our ambition is running rampant. And we just seem like we have an awful lot in common with the Romans. But my favorite character out of all my books is a gorilla It was years ago. The book is called Unspoken and it’s about a gorilla who speaks sign language. Years ago, I read this verse in the Bible and it says, “ask the animals and they will tell you” – the gist being that they will tell you about God. (Job 12:7 – Editor’s note) I looked at my husband and I said, wouldn’t it be cool if this gorilla who spoke sign language could talk about God. And he said, that’s the dumbest idea I’ve ever heard. And I said, alright, that’s it. I’m writing it. And so I did, and I love that book. I love that character. She was very sweet gorilla and she spoke she had a sense of humor. Of course, I based her on Koko that real gorilla who Penny Patterson taught to speak sign language. I didn’t let my gorilla do anything that Koko had not or could not really do. So she was pretty literally based, but she’s my favorite character of all time. Truly fulfilling the motto of the unexpected Jenny Wheeler: Well that truly does fulfil the motto of expect the unexpected, doesn’t it? When you first started writing, did you have any goal in mind and have you reached it yet? Angela Hunt: No. I became a writer after I got married, just because my husband and I adopted our children and we worked so hard to get them that I knew I was going to have to work because my husband is a youth pastor and they traditionally don’t make a lot of money. And I thought, okay, I’m going to have to help put food on the table. I want a job, and I’d like to have one where I can work at home and enjoy these babies that I worked so hard to bring over. I thought, okay, I’ve been an English major in school, and a friend told me I had a way with words and I thought, okay, I’ll try to write something. For five years while my kids were little, I was writing magazine articles and catalogue copy and things I could write when the kids were sleeping in their naps. And then I saw an ad in the back of Writer’s Digest magazine about a contest for unpublished children’s picture book authors, and I thought I’m an unpublished any kind of book author. I got a book on how to write children’s picture books and I wrote up a script and sent it in and it won the contest. So suddenly I was a children’s picture book writer. Who knew? It just grew from there. I went from picture books to middle grade books for kids, because my husband was a middle school youth pastor. And after writing 20 or 30 of those, my editor said why don’t you try adult novels? And I thought, okay, I’ll sure. It’s really been just a journey of walking through the doors that God opens. I think being a writer is like being a builder. If you know how to use the tools, write a good sentence, a good paragraph, put a story together, then you can write anything. It’s just a matter of figuring out what you want to write. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Now we’ve mentioned time management and just hearing you talk, I see that your whole life, you’ve probably have had fantastic time management. Tell us a bit about your typical writing day. I guess it’s different because your children are probably older, but how do you manage your time so effectively? Angela Hunt: Yes, every season of life has always been different, but now my kids are grown and out of the house and my husband and I live in Florida and we have this weird home that’s got separate buildings. It was built by an artist, and one building had his art studio and there’s a caboose on the yard and a workshop and then the house we live in. I rent two of them out with as Air Bnbs. So, the first thing I do every morning is get up and if somebody’s checking out, I have to clean the Air Bnb. Such a glamorous life. And I have chickens, so I have to go feed and water the chickens and collect the eggs and, but I’m usually ready to sit down and write after lunch. Then I focus on my writing and give myself a quota every day of either so many words to put into the computer or so many pages to edit. I’m very structured, so I do what I have to do per day and then I say, okay, time to go play with the dogs or talk to my husband, or play with the grandkids who live nearby too. It’s busy, but it’s fun. A famous English Mastiff named Justice Jenny Wheeler: You’ve mentioned the dogs, and you do have a famous dog, don’t you? Tell us about the dog. Angela Hunt: Oh yes. My husband and I love mastiffs, English Mastiffs. And back in 2001 we had a boy named Justice who was 275 pounds. One day I was watching Regis and Kelly, the TV show, and they mentioned it was going to be Dog Week and they were going to have Hercules visit on Friday, and he was the Guinness World Record dog. I thought it would be fun to send them a picture of my dog and maybe they’d hold it up in front of the camera and that would be thrilling. I did, I faxed it into their show and the next afternoon I got a call from the producer and she said, we want to bring you and your dog to New York and let you be on the show. And I laughed and I said, my dog won’t fit in one of those crates they have at the airport. I said he wouldn’t fit and I wouldn’t put him underneath anyway. And she said, no, we’ll buy him a ticket. He can ride with the people. And I said, really? Okay. So I was explaining this to my husband and as it happened, I was going to be teaching writing the next day in New Jersey, which is just over the bridge from New York City. And I said, so we both have to go, and then after the show I’ll go to New Jersey and you can fly home with a dog. And he said, why do we want to do this? And I said, because it’s a life experience. So we went on the show. We took the dog. He wasn’t the heaviest dog in the world, but he did beat Hercules, the world record dog. But they brought in a ringer from Jersey who was over 300 pounds. And he broke the scale at his vet’s office. But anyway, it was great. It was fun. Justice, our dog, was this local celebrity for about a month afterwards. He was on TV shows and radio shows and we took him to schools and the kids just loved loving him. He was just a big sweetheart. We’ve had nine mastiffs, but we only have them two at a time. That’s all we can afford to feed. The oldest youth pastor in the world Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. I gather your husband would not be a youth pastor anymore. Angela Hunt: Oh, he is, he’s probably the world’s oldest youth pastor, but yes, he’s retired. He doesn’t work anymore, but he has an independent ministry and so he goes to work every morning, thank goodness, or I’d never get anything done. And he still works with kids as a volunteer youth pastor. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Look, if there’s one thing as the quote secret of your creative career, what would it be? Angela Hunt: For me it’s never been about ambition or trying to write the Great American novel or anything. It’s just been that as a Christian, I see open doors as things that God has provided. When there’s an open door I tend to walk through it and figure that if God doesn’t want me to do it, he’ll close that door. For me, it’s just been a matter of walking through the doors that the Lord is open for me. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. We do like to ask our authors about their reading taste, so tell us what you like to read and if you’ve got anything you’d like to recommend to our listeners. Angela Hunt: Yes, I am a member of a book club and I started one in my previous neighborhood, because I knew I’ve stayed so busy, I wasn’t having time to read for pleasure. I thought I’ll start a book club and that way I have to read a book every month because I’m the leader. I have to lead the discussion. Then we moved and so I had to leave my book club behind. I started another one and we just finished, wait a minute, let me, what’s the name of the book? I wish I still had it on my desk. Oh, The People Of The Book by Geraldine Page. That’s it. (Editor’s note – Geraldine Brooks, not Geraldine Page.) What Angela Hunt is reading now Jenny Wheeler: Yes, an Australian author, Angela Hunt: Oh, that’s right, because the main character was from Australia. That’s right. Yes, I loved the book and, we had a great discussion about it. Jenny Wheeler: Tell our listeners. I have read that book actually. It is a great book, but tell our listeners just a little bit about the setup. Angela Hunt: It’s about a lady who is a book restorer. That isn’t quite right because she doesn’t restore a book, but she takes very old books, antiquated books, and she goes through them and tries to preserve them as well as she can. And this particular book was a Hagada, a Jewish story that’s usually used at Passover, but it had illuminated art all around it, which is very unusual for a Jewish book as opposed to a Christian book. And so in between the stories of this contemporary woman, you see the book through history, talking about how it came to be and who did the pictures and the history of the book through all these tumultuous periods in history. I love that. I thought it was fascinating. What is next for Angela Hunt author? Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for Angela as author? How many books do you actually aim to write in one year and what have you got on your desk for the next 12 months? Angela Hunt: I’m putting together a proposal for a new series. It’ll be, again, historical. Then my agent wants me to revisit a proposal that’s I have sitting in a drawer about a contemporary series, but right this very minute, I have just started a newsletter for writers. The older I get, the more I want to help other writers get started and to understand the business of writing. I see lots of people writing on the internet and they’re writing all over the place, but they seem to be a little aimless in what they want to do with it or understanding a lot of the basic principles. So if anybody wants to look at it, it’s just Angelahunt.substack.com and there’s a free version and a paid version. And I’m trying to give little bite-size bits of information about the business of writing to help people, learn how to, it’s called write well. Jenny Wheeler: Is that it’s a craft book, or do you do much marketing yourself? Angela Hunt: A little. I’m active on Facebook and a little bit on Instagram, then I’m doing the Substack thing. But it’s really, the marketing part is almost just the necessary evil part, because I’m really more focused on communicating. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, look, that’s great. Our final question always is. Where can people see you on, find you online? As you’ve mentioned, can you give us those addresses? If they look up your name, will it automatically come up? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Where to find Angela Hunt online Angela Hunt: Sure. My website is Angela Hunt books.com. The substack newsletter for writers is. Angelahunt.substack.com and Facebook? Just type the search box. Just type Angela Hunt, comma novelist, because there’s lots of Angela Hunts out there. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. And do you have much feedback from your readers? Angela Hunt: Oh yes. Probably have the most feedback on my Facebook page because I post about everything from cakes, baking. I love to bake, so every Friday I bake a cake and put it online. And so everybody is giving tips and suggestions and, just a little bit of everything. I think I would be bored if I read a page where all the person did was talk about books. So it’s just slice of life fun stuff. And there’s a nice, a very nice community of folks who stay in touch through that website, through Facebook. Jenny Wheeler: Tell us just a little about that family. How many children did you have and where did you find them? Angela Hunt: Ah, both of my kids are from South Korea and my daughter is, oh. She’s grown. She wouldn’t like it if I gave her age, but she is grown and has three children. So I have three grandchildren and then my son, he helps my husband in the youth ministry. So yeah, but they’re both from South Korea and just great. We love them. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Look, thank you so much. You obviously, have the gift for living a really full life. That’s wonderful. Apart from the success as an author, you, you’ve rounded it out beautifully. Thank you so much for sharing that experience today and I hope that people will pick up your books and discover what you’ve got to offer there. Thank you so much. Angela Hunt: Thanks for having me, Jenny. If you enjoyed Angela you might enjoy Tessa Afshar… Reviewers use all sorts of adjectives to describe inspirational fiction author Tessa Afshar’s work. Words like whimsical, intriguing, romantic, prophetic, faith-filled, daunting, grace-filled, dangerous, redeeming, heart-pumping, heart-stirring, sad and joyful – all at once. That’s Tessa. In this episode from Christmas 2023 Tessa talks about her latest release, The Persian King, set in Babylon in the sixth century BC. And she shares something of her remarkable life; at 14 years of age, speaking no English, moving from the Middle East to a British boarding school, and then becoming a Christian in her early twenties and completing a Masters in Divinity at Yale. Best-selling romance author Debbie Macomber says of her work: “No one brings the Bible to life like Tessa Afshar.” LISTEN TO TESSA Next time on Binge Reading Next time on Binge Reading. And remember that now in two weeks time. Our show is now fortnightly rather than weekly. And our guests to next time is acclaimed World War II novelist, Sarah Sundin and her latest book, Embers In The London Sky, which explores the war through the eyes of a mother, separated from her beloved child and a BBC correspondent who knows that reporting the truth may take him deep into the flames. It’s a breathtaking novel that seamlessly weaves together, history, suspense, and romance in the tale that transcends time. That’s next time on Binge Reading. Finally, just that last reminder, leave us a review if you enjoy the show, so others will find us too. It’s really important to us to let folks know about great books. They’d love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

Inspirational author Amanda Barrett’s latest book, The Warsaw Sisters shines a light on an oft-forgotten corner of World War II Poland, and the true stories of ordinary individuals who fought to preserve freedom and humanity in the darkest of times. Hi, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and today on Binge Reading, Amanda talks about how she excavates the forgotten fragments of history in her books and why she loves the enduring power of story. The Warsaw Sisters tells of two women fighting against the darkness engulfing their homeland, one by entering a daring network of women sheltering Jewish children, and the other by joining the ranks of Poland’s Secret Army, the Polish version of the Resistance. As Warsaw buckles under German oppression, they must rely on the courage of ordinary people – so-called ordinary people – to resist the power of the state. Binge Reading Thriller Giveaway Free Books – THRILLERS R US – Mystery and Thriller Lucky Dip Our Giveaway this week is Thrillers R Us an opportunity to get free books from a wide -ranging selection of mysteries and thrillers from many authors, including my own book, Sadie’s Vow, a San Francisco Mystery set in the mid- 19th century.  You’ll find the links for downloads for these free books in the show notes for this episode on the website, www.thejoysofbinge reading.com. Buy me a coffee and defray production costs And before we get to Amanda, just a reminder you can help to defray the cost of production of this episode by buying me a cup of coffee on Buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx. And if you enjoy the show, don’t forget, leave us the reviews so others will find us too. I make this plea every time I podcast. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they would love to read. Events and books mentioned in this episode The Warsaw Sisters Playlist: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWyLFWfMD6nXlZrylX1eMw-SbKHz7t05P Irena Sendler – Polish humanitarian https://irenasendler.org/ Warsaw Uprising:  https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/the-warsaw-polish-uprising Polish Resistance: https://polandatwartours.com/unsung-heroes-the-brave-men-and-women-of-the-polish-resistance-during-ww2/ Dietrich Bonhoffeur’s fiancée, Maria Von Wedemeyer/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_von_Wedemeyer_Weller Treblinka: – the concentration camp where many Warsaw Jews died. https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/treblinka Sophie Scholl: ( From The White Rose Resists,) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-57008360 Amanda’s books mentioned in this show: Within These Walls of Sorrow: https://amandabarratt.net/within-these-walls-of-sorrow/ The White Rose Resists; https://amandabarratt.net/the-white-rose-resists-a-novel-of-the-german-students-who-defied-hitler/ My Dearest Dietrich: https://amandabarratt.net/my-dearest-dietrich-a-novel-of-dietrich-bonhoeffers-lost-love/ Books Amanda is reading: Kristen Hannah, The Women, https://kristinhannah.com/books/the-women/ Jennifer L. Wright, The Girl From The Papers, (A Bonnie and Clyde story – to be released in August.) https://jennwrightwrites.com/the-girl-from-the-papers Where to find Amanda Barratt on line Website: https://amandabarratt.net/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/amandabarrattauthor/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AmandaBarrattAuthor/ Introducing inspirational author Amanda Barratt Amanda Barratt – inspirational historical fiction Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Amanda. Hello there, Amanda, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Amanda Barratt: Thank you so much. It is such a joy to be here. Jenny Wheeler: We’re talking about The Warsaw Sisters today. You’ve got a real track record with inspirational historical fiction. The Warsaw Sisters is set in Warsaw during the Second World War, as the ghetto is being set up, that notorious ghetto, a very dark time in Polish history. What attracted you to this story? Amanda Barratt: So, writing this novel came out of my previous novel, the research from my previous novel, Within These Walls Of Sorrow, which was set in the ghetto in Kraków, Poland. And while there I researching that novel, I uncovered all of these incredible stories of women in the Resistance. And there were so many that I couldn’t possibly include them in that book. A lot of them dealt with Warsaw and as I researched them, as I began to explore them as I explored the daring network of women who rescued Jewish children from the Warsaw ghetto, and the heroic fighters, women who were fighters in the Warsaw uprising… the more I began to want to bring their stories, I always return to the theme of women’s experiences in war. That’s something many of my novels explore, and that’s something I’m very passionate about exploring. Their courage, their sacrifice, their stories have often been underrepresented, and I think it’s so important to be illuminating their stories and bringing them out of their shadows where they deserve to be. Shining a light in dark places Jenny Wheeler: Now you do describe it as inspirational fiction and although it is a dark story, you do find strong redemptive elements in it. Is that an important aspect for you? Amanda Barratt: Absolutely. It’s always important to me because even in the midst of the darkness. that’s often when those spark what I call the sparks of light in the night of war, when those shine the brightest. And as I researched and as I uncovered stories of ordinary people faced with these unfathomable, unthinkable, circumstances and yet they chose not to turn away from the evil that was unfolding. They chose to take action. And to me, those stories are extraordinarily compelling and they are stories of people who were a light in the midst of these very dark times. Jenny Wheeler: Do you find it difficult to spend so much time amongst these grim events? I wondered how you kept your own spirits up as you were writing. Amanda Barratt: It is very dark. The research is very dark. Spending often years immersed in this subject matter, pouring over research books, pouring over archives… It can be very emotionally draining. But I’m so passionate about sharing these sorts of stories and exploring and illuminating these heroes that I think more people need to know about. So, for me, in those moments, when it gets that dark, I always just return to where my passion is. For Amanda, research is favourite part Jenny Wheeler: You have got a lot of praise for your historical research. These books are very close to what factually happened, and I wondered how you managed to get that research. How did you put it all together? Amanda Barratt: Research for me is, it’s my favorite part of the whole process. It’s really being able to delve into the history. For this book, I relied on more than a hundred nonfiction titles, and I always seek out, not just historical treatises, but the memoirs, the firsthand accounts, those deeply personal experiences of individuals and within those are often where I find the most surprising, the most astonishing things. Those often become what makes it into my novel. I was also really fortunate to be able to access a lot of transcribed interviews with veterans of the Home Army, those who fought in the Warsaw Uprising, the women who were part of the Polish Resistance. Those were absolutely invaluable. Being able to hear in their own words what they experienced and how it affected them. And that was also the same in depicting the Warsaw Ghetto. I listened to countless interviews with Jewish survivors and also non-Jews who worked in the Resistance movement to shelter them. And those were again, a gold mine of information. One of my favorite experiences of this entire process was though I wrote the novel in the midst of the Pandemic, so I wasn’t able to travel over to Poland as I would’ve loved to, but I was able to go to a museum a couple of hours from where I lived. It housed a collection of artifacts and documents related to the Warsaw Uprising and the Polish Resistance, including holding a cap worn by a soldier who fought in the Uprising, looking at copies of the newspaper that these young courier girls used to carry throughout the city to distribute these words of freedom and truth. It brought to me in such a tangible way, reminding me that these were real people with these real tangible objects, and it made it so much more personal. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The heroic exploits of ‘ordinary’ women Jenny Wheeler: Did you say you’d consulted 100 nonfiction books? Amanda Barratt: Yes, I did. I always want to make sure in case my editor ever asks me, for a source when she’s reading the manuscript. I always keep a list of every book I read, and so I counted what I read for The Warsaw Sisters. And yes, it was over a hundred titles. Jenny Wheeler: My gosh, that’s amazing. This story involves two sisters, Helena and Antonina. They have different ways of dealing with the events that are facing them, and. that difference the story creates some distance and conflict between them. As it progresses, can you outline for us a little bit of what those dilemmas were without giving away too much of the story? Amanda Barratt: Yes. They each go on separate journeys and journeys that take them apart, but throughout the course of the novel, the enduring bond of sisterhood is something that the novel really explores and something I really love delving into. So, my character of Antonina, she is works with a network organized and operated primarily by women, the most famous of whom is Irena Sendler. And many people have heard of her and she is part of that network which rescued Jewish children from the Warsaw Ghetto and sheltered them on the outside of the city. Antonina ends up using her flat as a hiding place for these Jewish children in their first hours and days out of the ghetto as they’re adjusting to the shock and the trauma of all of that. Irena’s story is so inspiring, so I really love being able to draw in and include her as a cameo character in the novel. And then also through my own character of Antonina, celebrate and honor the other women who worked so courageously and risked so much to shelter these children. And then my other character, Helena, she is, as I’ve said, inspired by the women who worked in the Polish resistance movement. Illuminating Warsaw at a horrific period Most of these women who were these key figures in this organization were in their late teens, in their early twenties. And before the actual uprising broke out in Warsaw, they served as couriers and they would carry messages all across the city and deposits them in these secret letter boxes and be organizing these meetings between various cells. It was extraordinarily dangerous work, ‘because often they were carrying the materials on their person. And if they were stopped, as was so often happened in Warsaw, by a German policeman, and discovered with this, it would be an immediate arrest and imprisonment. And then finally, when the. Warsaw Uprising breaks out these women become fighters on the front lines. They served as couriers and nurses and many, some of them even combatants, fighting with arms and hand. These are young women who are suffering and sacrificing as soldiers, and their stories are extraordinary. They’re remarkable, and that they did this… And that they survived this… I really love just being able to bring them to light, to illuminate their stories and to illuminate the story of the Warsaw Uprising through their stories, which is something I think a lot of people may, especially in North America, where I live, may not have heard of. Smuggling in food, smuggling out children Jenny Wheeler: Now you mentioned that social worker, Irena, she is a real true life character, isn’t she? Amanda Barratt: Yes. Her name is Irena Sendler and she was one of the leaders in what became a very vast network of people who were helping the Jewish inhabitants of the Warsaw Ghetto. Irena, from the very beginning of the ghetto almost, she was entering the ghetto. And at first, she and her few female colleagues who were allowed to enter the ghetto. They were smuggling in food. They were smuggling in medicine. They were smuggling in typhus vaccines, mostly at first, just for their acquaintances whom they known before the war, whom they were desperate to help. And it grew. And finally, when, as the situation in the ghetto grew more dire, and then as the deportations of the Treblinka extermination camp began, where train loads of Jewish men, women, and children were daily being sent out of the ghetto to be murdered. Then Irena and her colleagues began to embark on an even more dangerous mission, smuggling out these children and knowing that if they couldn’t save, the hundreds of thousands of those who were in the ghetto, they could do what they could for the most vulnerable. And together this group of women saved it’s estimated as many as 2,500 Jewish children. The Warsaw playlist – a lot of Chopin Jenny Wheeler: Yes, fantastic. Two of your characters are gifted musicians, The link between them, the thing that absolutely draws them together, is their shared passion and talent for music. And I noticed that you do have a playlist for this book on YouTube. Tell us a bit about that playlist. Amanda Barratt: I loved creating the playlist. I listen to so much music as I write and as I’m thinking about the story, and it provides such inspiration for me. I wanted to be able to make that accessible to readers. It includes lots of Chopin, which is my character Antonina’s favorite piece. And she and her boyfriend, who is a Jewish and a musician, really share a special bond with Chopin. What I also loved was including was songs from the Warsaw Uprising. During the fighting and in the days before, there were a lot of musicians who were composing these patriotic songs. And they became famous and I loved listening to them. They were inspiring as I brought that journey of my characters together. The playlist includes a lot of that and also includes some music soundtracks from some films that were inspiring. It helped to create the atmosphere of the novel. Jenny Wheeler: Look, you did mention the book before this one. Within These Walls Of Sorrow, also set in Warsaw, as you’ve mentioned. Is there something about Poland that particularly draws you? You don’t have family links or anything like that? Amanda Barratt: Yes, I’m of Polish heritage, so it’s very special to me to be able to explore these stories because, although I don’t believe that my immediate relatives were there during the war, they came and were living in America at the time, it’s definitely possible that there were extended family over there. To think about what they must have endured and the stories of ordinary people… The Polish narrative and what Poland endured and also the story of the Polish resistance is something that I did not know a lot about. I certainly didn’t learn a lot about it in school, and so to be able to explore that story, explore both what Poland suffered and both the incredible courage of the Polish people. I’m really passionate about being able to illuminate and explore that. Putting women on the billboards Jenny Wheeler: It is interesting how a number of these important stories of these kinds of events have featured men, but I can’t think of any that, like an international movie, that has really highlighted women’s efforts. Amanda Barratt: Yes, I completely agree. There was a Hallmark Hall of Fame film about Irena Sendler, but I would really love to see her story on the big screen in rather a Schindler’s List budget sort of way. Because the story of her is just so remarkable. And I think that yes, I’d love to see more women’s stories illuminated in that way. Jenny Wheeler: Your books have won important awards Within These Walls Of Sorrow won two Christie awards for Book of the Year and Best Historical Fiction. And the story before that one, The White Rose Resists also won a Christie Award for historical fiction. Tell us a bit about the Christies for people who might not understand the significance. Amanda Barratt: So, the Christie Awards, which I was just completely stunned, still stunned, and so honored by those, is a very large award in the inspirational Christian fiction community. They are held once a year at a gala. And it was really special. I have many authors whom I admire who have been honored with the Christie in the years past. So to share that was really meaningful. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. The White Rose Resists was another World War II story. You obviously love this World War II period, and that one as well was based on a true story about students who resisted Hitler. I had no idea there were students who resisted Hitler, so tell us a little about that one. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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So that novel is inspired by the true story of a young woman named Sophie Scholl who was a college student in Munich, and together with her brother Hans, they formed a group which was called The White Rose. And this group wrote, printed and distributed leaflets calling on the German people to rise up against Hitler, telling the truth about German crime. This was very daring material that they were publishing in these leaflets, and they distributed them all across Munich and even beyond in cities throughout Germany. Exploring that story of these college students who were looking at what was unfolding in their country, and they knew, unlike many of their peers, they could not remain silently complicit. They took action and eventually this action led to their being arrested. And eventually many of the members of the group were unfortunately executed as a result of their activities. But I really love being able to blend Sophie’s story with a couple fictional characters and as well, who become part of the group. And again, it’s a story of young people and of women. I loved really being able to highlight Sophie’s role in this resistance group? Jenny Wheeler: Have said you love writing about the forgotten heroes of history. One of your stories has featured somebody who’s far more famous, but an aspect of his life that I don’t think many people are really aware of, and that is the story of the internationally acclaimed theologian and Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and a love story that took place in the later years of his life. Tell us a bit about that book. Dietrich Bonhoffeur’s dearest love Amanda Barratt: I had been familiar with this with the story of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. I had read some things about him, but I had no idea he was engaged. And then I came across a book called Love Letters from Cell 92. And in that volume is the correspondence between Dietrich and his fiancée, Maria von Wedemeyer. And as I read that, I was absolutely stunned and absolutely very moved by this extraordinary young woman and the role she played in Dietrich’s life. And she really has very much been in the shadows, In the first major biography of Dietrich Bonhoeffer she’s mentioned on only like four pages, which is terrible because she was such an important, pivotal figure in his life. Through my novel, My Dearest Dietrich, I was able to really delve into her life in the role she played in Bonhoeffer’s life, and also bringing in a more human side to Dietrich. Bonhoeffer, a side of not only this great theologian, this great member of the Resistance, but this man in love, this very human man experiencing these very, human emotions was very moving to me and was very special. And I enjoyed hearing from readers who have been touched by exploring this side of his life. Jenny Wheeler: What drew you to fiction? Was there a Eureka moment when you thought, I’ve just got to write about World War ii, or how did it all happen? Amanda Barratt: My fascination with World War II and my passion for the human stories of the Second World War and the human stories of the Holocaust started very young. I was around, seven, eight years old and I discovered a copy of The Diary of Anne Frank in my local library. And I was immediately drawn into her story, her very personal story, this very personal aspect of history, this young woman’s thoughts as she’s writing about what she’s going through. It was her story brought me to the Second World War and it sparked a lifelong fascination for these stories, which continued. And though my very first published works weren’t World War II, when I came across the story of Bonhoeffer and his fiancée… That was really a moment when all of that research that I had spent so much time just doing and reading memoirs and books, it really culminated in being able to use that and build upon that in this, in bringing Dietrich’s story. Amanda Barratt has always loved history Jenny Wheeler: Give us bit of an idea of how your life developed pre your writing career, and then after. How did that junction take place? Amanda Barratt: My very first published work was a novella in a historical romance anthology called Most Eligible Bachelor Collection. I was able to submit for that and my road to publication before that took many years. It was a road paved with a lot of rejections, a lot of doubt, a lot of my agents sending my books to publishers and receiving rejections, and it was a very difficult journey. It was very hard, going through all of this. But I always return to my love for story, my love for bringing history to life through a narrative format, whether that was what I was writing back then, which was more the historical romance, or now I write historical fiction. But my love for story has really remained unchanged. Jenny Wheeler: It always has been historical? Amanda Barratt: Yes, it always has been. When I was very young reading my first books, the ones that captioned my heart were always historical. There was Anne Of Green Gables, Little Women. Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. History has always just been such a huge part of my life. It was my favorite subject in school, and nothing really has changed. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s great. Did you do any real work before you began writing? Or have you been more or less a writer your whole life? Amanda Barratt: I was a librarian, so I worked at a library and again, being surrounded by books all day was absolutely incredible and I was often my best customer, pouring over the new releases and saying, oh, this one looks good and this one looks good. And yes, that led to then I began my writing career. An element of faith important in every story Jenny Wheeler: Obviously a great place for research as well, being in a library. Amanda Barratt: Yes, absolutely. It really was. Yes. Jenny Wheeler: What was your goal when you first started writing, and have you achieved it yet? Amanda Barratt: I feel that my goal has always been to explore the human sides of history and illuminate little known or forgotten stories. I think that with each of my novels, I’m really privileged to be able to do that, to explore a new angle of what may be a familiar historical narrative.Returning to the Second World War, those stories have often been the story of the men’s war, the story of the battles fought, the things that we read about in history books, But there were so many forgotten stories and often women’s stories are the ones that are forgotten. And so that’s really where I’ve turned to. That really is where my passion is bringing those stories to life. Jenny Wheeler: You are published now by an inspirational publisher, a Christian publisher. Do you find it a challenge to balance your interest in faith with just keeping the story going? How do you find that balance? Amanda Barratt: For me that’s very important to me to include an element of faith in every novel. And I think that these stories, these very dark stories are often the perfect place to do that. How do human beings wrestle with difficult situations, with tragic situations and where is God in all of that? It’s very personal to me and with every novel I write God, teaches me throughout that process and speaks something new to me. I’m really be privileged to be able to explore that and also to explore it in a historically authentic way. Reading about people in the past who were sustained by their deep faith in God and how that got them through these really unfathomable circumstances. Advice for young writers from a pro Jenny Wheeler: You’ve mentioned that it was a difficult journey to getting published. If there’s one thing that you would say was the quote secret of your success as an author in your creative career, what would it be? Amanda Barratt: It would be perseverance. I would think it would be staying the course. So many times. along the road I considered; should I continue to do this? Should I have my agent send out proposals and receive rejections? And for me it was really just persevering in the midst of that, knowing that these stories were on my heart. I wanted to keep writing. I felt I’ve always loved writing and wanted to pursue that. And so just to not give up, and that’s really the advice I always give to aspiring authors. If story is something that you’re passionate about, that you believe that is, is a heart calling for you, don’t give up. Keep going. Continue. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. We always like to ask our guests about their own reading taste. The podcast is called The Joys of Binge Reading. Are you a binge reader at all and what books, fiction books, are you reading at the moment that you might like to recommend for others? Amanda Barratt: I love reading. Reading is one of my very favorite things. There’s nothing but that I love more than sitting down with a book and a cup of tea at the end of a long day. I love historical fiction and there are so many fantastic, incredible historical fiction novels being released right now. I have a copy that I just got of Kristin Hannah’s new novel, The Women about the courageous nurses in the Vietnam War, and I’m very excited about reading that. Kristen is an author I admire. I adore her books, the way that she brings history to life and women’s stories to life. I’m really excited to read that. And then I’m also just finishing up a novel called The Girl From the Papers by Jennifer Alwright.  And that is a story inspired by the notorious couple, Bonnie and Clyde. Jennifer took and wrote of a couple rather inspired by that story, pulling in some of their true events with an element of fiction and it’s excellent. It’s mesmerizing writing and I wish I could sit and read it all day. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Looking back, what would Amanda change? Jenny Wheeler: I must say that it seems to me there’s a wave of mainly female writers writing about these forgotten women of history at the moment, isn’t there? There’s just a feast of material out there. Amanda Barratt: Yes, it’s wonderful. I love that. It feels like it’s that moment for these stories that haven’t maybe been told before to, or maybe not been told through fiction. I love the way that fiction can bring history to a new audience. People who might not pick up a biography or something, but they can still, through a novel, they can learn and they can really be inspired by these remarkable stories. And so I’m loving it. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there’s one thing you’d change about your writing career, what would it be? Amanda Barratt: Goodness. I think I’m really grateful for the journey that I’ve been on. I’m not sure that there’s anything I would’ve changed about it. I think I would tell myself to just to enjoy the journey. To enjoy the process, to not rush, try to rush it and, leap forward before you’re ready. But just to savor every moment and every part of the process, I feel that as we write and as we continue to write for years and years, it makes us deeper people. It stretches us as human beings. I‘ve really have loved that process of the way writing has changed me as a person. What’s next for Amanda Barratt author? Jenny Wheeler: Perhaps just not questioning yourself like you might have done. Amanda Barratt: Yes. That’s that. Yes, I would definitely, yes, I would say that’s true. Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for Amanda as author? What have you got on your desk that you’re working on in the next 12 months? Amanda Barratt: I’m currently researching another novel set in Poland during the Second World War. I It’s another little-known story, something that I stumbled upon while researching The Warsaw Sisters, and I’m very excited. I don’t have a title or anything like that, but if readers, follow me on my newsletter or on my other social media accounts, as soon as I have exciting news to share, they will be the first to know. And I’m very excited about continuing to delve into this story and explore it as I begin the process of the writing It. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s wonderful when we likely to see that one? Amanda Barratt: Probably in the next couple of years. The research is usually around a year and the writing round a year. So yes, probably within the next two or three years. Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned your readers interacting with your newsletter. I imagine that you do like to interact with your readers. Where can they find you online? Amanda Barratt: I love interacting in readers is one of the greatest joys of this journey. Just being able to connect and hear how their stories have touched and. their hearts and to form friendships. That’s been wonderful. I hang out mostly on Instagram. I love the Instagram community and I’m also on Facebook. And then I always do invite readers to sign up for my [email protected], where I only send out newsletters a few times a year. I don’t overwhelm anyone’s inboxes, but it’s the perfect place for them to find out all the exciting news cover reveals, sneak peeks, and all of that. The reception in Poland… Jenny Wheeler: Are you at all literate in the Polish language? I just noticed that on your playlist, there’s a tremendous number of comments in Polish, and it’s obvious that a lot of your readers appreciate these Polish stories and are actually either Polish speakers or living in Poland. Amanda Barratt: Yes, I’ve been fortunate to connect with a lot of readers who have read the novel in Poland, which is extremely special to me when I receive emails from someone who said that my mother fought in the Warsaw uprising and lived in Warsaw during the events of your novel. That’s really special to be able to be able to know that I’m honoring the, their history and their experiences. I’ve loved the friendships I’ve made there, the connections that have come from that and from people in Poland. Jenny Wheeler: Have the books been published in Polish? Amanda Barratt: That’s something that’s currently I’m hoping we’ll will come to pass in the next year or so, as we’ve definitely had a lot of interest from readers over there. But readers have been able to pick up the novel in English, which has been wonderful. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great and I hope sometime that international movie is coming too. Amanda Barratt: Oh, that would be incredible. I keep having readers say that I would love to see The Warsaw Sisters on the big screen. That would be wonderful. Jenny Wheeler: I think it’ll make a great movie. Look, thanks so much, Amanda. It’s been wonderful to talk. Thank you for your time today, and we’ll include links for everything that we’ve discussed in the show notes so that if people want to follow up on some of this, there’ll be links to things like the Dietrich Bonhoeffer story and other things that we’ve been talking about. Amanda Barratt: Thank you. This has been such a pleasure. It’s been so wonderful to spend time here with you today. Jenny Wheeler: Amanda, thanks a lot. Bye now. If you enjoyed Amanda you might also enjoy… Patti Callahan’s two wonderful biographical fiction stories abased around about popular theologian C. S. Lewis and his love affair with Joy Davidson and his magical Narnia series: Becoming Mrs. Lewis and Once Upon a Wardrobe. The first, Becoming Mrs Lewis, tells the story of the precious years of love and marriage the two authors shared before they were separated by Joy’s early death. The second, Once Upon a Wardrobe, delves into the inspiration behind the magical Narnia children’s series. I couldn’t think of a more uplifting story to feature on our 200th episode or a better Christmas book to talk about. If you’re anything like me, you will find that Once Upon a Wardrobe makes you laugh and cry, sometimes even at the same time. Next Time On Binge Reading Bringing the New Testament alive at Easter We’re all set for Easter, with an Easter story from a different angle, bringing alive New Testament times. New York Times best-selling author Angela Hunt has a compelling new book out. She’s our guests talking about The Sisters Of Corinth. Once again, two sisters, the daughters of a high-ranking Corinthian magistrate. One is a devotee of the goddess Aphrodite, the other a follower of the newly resurrected Christ. They’re destined to have different ambitions and colliding life paths. That’s next time on The Joys Of Binge Reading. Remember we are fortnightly this year, so that’ll be in two weeks on March the 26th. And just a final reminder before we go. Leave us a review if you like the show. so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way to discover a podcast. And to find great books, they will love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

Rachel Hore is a UK Sunday Times bestselling author. whose latest book, The Hidden Years is the story of secrets, loss and betrayal set in Cornwall during World War ii, and then looking ahead closer to contemporary times, to the heady days of the 1960s. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and today on the Binge Reading Show, Rachel talks about families and their secrets, and the strange coincidences when life mirrors art in ways we can’t possibly anticipate. Our Free Books Giveaway Our Free Books Giveaway this week is Sweet Snow Closed Door Romance, a selection of Valentine’s Day love stories to round out the month, including Tangled Destiny, the prequel to my of Gold and Blood Historical Mystery series. This offer closes February 29, so act right now. The links for where you can download those books can be found in the show notes for this episode on the website, the joys of binge reading.com. FREE BOOK GIVEAWAY – ROMANCE ​https://claims.prolificworks.com/gg/HRDk8Mo8mSQsBhQxhON9​ Buy Me A Coffee Before we get to Rachel, just a reminder, you can help defray the cost of production of the show by buying me a cup of coffee on buy me a coffee.com/jennywheelx. And if you enjoy the show, remember you can also leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best recommendation for people to find the show and great books they will love to read. Where to find links for this episode Rose Tremain https://www.penguin.co.nz/books/absolutely-and-forever-9781784745202 Ann Cleeves The Shetland series: https://anncleeves.com/shetland/index.html The Vera series: https://anncleeves.com/vera/index.html Ann Patchett: https://www.annpatchett.com/ Paul Harding https://www.paulhardingauthor.com/ Where to find Rachel Hore Online Website: https://rachelhore.co.uk/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/RachelHoreAuthor/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/rachel.hore/ Introducing women’s fiction author Rachel Hore Rachel Hore – UK best selling author with over 1 million books sold Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Rachel. Hello there Rachel, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Rachel Hore: Thank you, Jenny. It’s really good to be here. Jenny Wheeler: Look, Rachel, I understand that The Hidden Years is your 13th novel,. Is that correct? Rachel Hore: Yes it is. Unlucky for some, but I’m cheerful about it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great and it, they’re all in very much the same vein. You haven’t been one of those authors who’s jumped genres. They’re character, driven family stories of upheaval and secrets. Sometimes cross-generational, sometimes not so much in the dual timeline. I wondered how you came to identify that as maybe the area that you were most interested in writing about in the beginning? Love of family deep and long lasting Rachel Hore: I think it came from quite deep inside. I’ve always been very interested in stories of my own family. My maternal grandmother was one of those sorts of grandmothers who was the repository of tales of characters in the family. And, of all the things that had happened, good and bad, and who was guilty and who said what to whom and so on. I became very fascinated by that, and although the first of my books, The Dream House, wasn’t about any real life family members, it was about family issues and family secrets which was my main motivation really. Jenny Wheeler: I believe that every family has secrets. I’ve been a bit of an amateur genealogist myself in my time, and it’s amazing when you start to dig what you discover, isn’t it? Rachel Hore: Yes it is. Some of these things might seem very ordinary, but when they’re happening in your own family, they are very special. Tt’s the old one, that blood is thicker than water. The links of family are very important. But actually, people within families are always struggling to find their place, I think. If they’re the second child, they are struggling sometimes about their place in the family, when the eldest child might be the one that’s lionized most, or whatever. It’s different in every family, but it is endlessly fascinating for those within the family, certainly, and sometimes if the stories are well told, to people outside the family as well. Women finding a place of their own Jenny Wheeler: That’s right. And I guess we also have to take into account how, what’s happening at the time. The generational changes also affect the prospects. In The Hidden Years, I think you capture beautifully the two key female characters. The World War II one is very much taken up with her duties as a nurse, working with wounded soldiers. By the time the book advances and the one from the 1960s is very typically caught up in that spirit of seeking freedom. Chucking in university and taking up with the musician boyfriend and going off to the country to something like a rather sedate sort of commune. And in both timeframes, they’re young women searching for their place in life, their identity, what they’re meant to be doing, but in very different social circumstances, aren’t they? Rachel Hore: I think you’ve put your finger on it. Really. The 1960s generation, of course, are the children of the Wartime Generation and for the Wartime Generation, duty and rationing and doing your bit were absolutely vitally important. Whereas the next generation rather rebel against that and they’re looking for something different. But in both generations, sometimes individuals don’t fit in exactly. And I suppose Belle in the 1960s, who’s very much searching for her place in the world, realizes that the search for freedom is perhaps not enough. Lost family secrets going back a generation Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s right. Belle, your 1960s protagonist, as we’ve mentioned, she’s chasing up family secrets, and it’s partly related to a country house called Silverwood, which happens to be the place she ends up with this new boyfriend. She uncovers a photograph of herself as a toddler on the beach near Silverwood, and she has no recollection of being there. She’s too young to really remember, and she’s very curious as to why this photograph exists and what connection the family has with the house. Can you tell us a little bit about the nucleus for this story yourself? Was there a family photograph or something that sparked this idea? Rachel Hore: There was something that sported the idea. The story is set mostly in beautiful countryside in Cornwall at the mouth of the Helford River, which runs into the sea near the port of Falmouth on the south coast of Cornwall. It’s a very beautiful area, but also an important area in World War II. especially when it came to D-Day. The house of Silverwood, which is a fictional house, was home in the Second World War to an evacuated school. By the time Belle comes around in the 1960s, it’s become this home for this off-grid community. What inspired it was finding a photograph in a book called Cornwall at War which I realized with a shock, showed a class of boys from a school that was evacuated to Cornwall during the Second World War. The serendipity of coincidence And it was the school that my father was at. I poured over this photograph wondering which of the boys might be my father. In fact, none of them was, it My next board of call was to actually write to the school and say, do you have any other photographs of this house where the school was evacuated to? I was sent one and I was told that my father was in this photograph somewhere. I couldn’t actually identify him in the lines of, boys in the class, the year photograph. But it gave me a very warm feeling to think that he was there. And it really engendered the family story. My Father’s school was evacuated to a hotel on the south coast of Cornwall. But I chose to invent a house for my purposes. Jenny Wheeler: Was your dad not alive still? For you to be able to talk with him about that directly? Rachel Hore: Sadly not. One of the things in the story that did amaze me though, was the fact that, in the part of the story in Truro, which is the capital of Cornwall, the county capital. The girl in the past whose name is Imogen, is a nurse in a hospital there and a German bomb is dropped on the hospital. And when my mother read the book, she said, “oh, your father always talked about that bomb.” Then I realized it was in the school holidays, he would actually have been living at home a few hundred meters up the road from the hospital and he would’ve heard it go off and so on. So that really gave me trickles at the back of my neck to think of that strong connection. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The Beautiful Spy – based on real life Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Rachel Hore: When you are writing fiction, how close it sometimes gets to reality. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s wonderful. That’s amazing. A couple of books before The Hidden Years, you wrote one called The Beautiful Spy, and a similar story really, of a young woman of that generation who wants to feel she’s making a difference in the world. She doesn’t want to have the traditional unquestioned pathway of marriage and family, just immediately. She wants to at least explore her options and she’s drawn into accepting a rather risky assignment, working as a spy in Britain before the war to the precursor for MI 6, MI 5. I gather that Minnie, your character is based on a true story. Could you tell us a little bit about that particular woman and that story? Rachel Hore: I call her Minnie Gray, and she is based on a real life woman called Olga Gray, who in 1932 was recruited by the Secret Service to spy on the British Communist Party. I came across Olga when I was actually researching an idea for another book I wanted to write, another novel I wanted to write, which ended up going onto the back burner, because I was looking for a wartime spying story as a backstory for, the outline I was working on. And I came across the story of Olga in a biography of the spy master M, who started off the Secret Service at this time. It was not a story I’d ever heard before. We’ve heard quite a lot about the Special Operations Executive, the SOE, and the women who were recruited to go to Europe during the Second World War who were wireless operators and couriers, sometimes at the risk of their lives. We’ve had a great deal about them. But this story from a dozen years before the Special Operation Executive really pulled me in because the early thirties you think of as quite a sedate time really. A very different side of spies from Bond And although we’re always thinking about the gradual rise of Hitler. in the late twenties, early thirties until the time he becomes chancellor in 1933, in fact, the workings of the British Communist Party were of at least as great interest to the British government as anything to do with fascism. And there was a very real fear that went back to the 1917 Russian Revolution that Russian communism might cause revolution in other European countries, especially Britain. And as a result of that M – Maxwell Knight – was charged with investigating the British Communist Party and he considered the best way of doing this was to send very quiet, unassuming people like Olga in as administrators, and secretaries to sit there quietly, typing letters but keeping their ears open for what was going on in the British Communist Party offices. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, it’s a very different side of the spy industry to what we might imagine from James Bond. A most unglamorous side and, but it brings out extremely well the emotional conflict that the situation gave rise to because, Minnie in your book starts to feel a real conflict between her growing relationships with the people she’s working with, the friends, and her handler at MI5, who she really looks up to and wants to please. But she feels she’s betraying the people that she works for. How did you get inside August’s head? Did she leave memoirs or did you have to imagine all of that? Part of the story. Real life Olga had a happy ending Rachel Hore: Maxwell Knight himself wrote an account of what’s happened in these years. Although he didn’t write anything that, condemned his own behavior, he very much gave the impression of Minnie as – oh, sorry – Olga, real life – Olga – as somebody who was under considerable psychological pressure. There was evidence of her having to be admitted to a nerve hospital at least once, because the pressure on her was so great. It was a matter really of me inserting myself into the information that there actually is, and thinking what it actually must have been like for quite an ordinary young woman in these circumstances. Especially, I don’t know, I think, I hope she comes across as quite a strong character with a lot of stamina. She was not somebody who was frightened off by the least sign of danger. She was actually up for all sorts of things, such as being sent out to India on her own without a chaperone into quite a dangerous situation where she was supposed to meet Indian communists and handover information and money. Although she found it incredibly stressful doing it, she did get on and do it. You’ve got this dichotomy really. Someone who was incredibly brave but at the same time suffered terrible stress because of doing the things that she was required to do. And I’m not sure that anybody’s written about a spy quite like that before, certainly in fiction. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I think you’re right. And that does come through? She certainly doesn’t appear to be weak to me, but she does appear to be put under really unfair levels of stress, and you get the feeling of some of the stories we’ve heard in more recent times about undercover cops being put into very difficult positions and then not being given adequate support. With your character, you feel as if she is not given adequate support by MI 5. I’m not sure whether her handler in your story is the equivalent of Maxwell Knight or one below him. We are never quite clear what exact level in the service he is. M for Maxwell – complicated spymaster Rachel Hore: He is Maxwell Knight. Jenny Wheeler: He is Maxwell Knight. Yes. Rachel Hore: Yes. Who is the model for M in at the James Bond stories? Jenny Wheeler: He comes across as a very attractive man, but gradually you realize that there’s quite a degree of manipulation going on there. She almost worships the ground he walks on, and the most important thing to her is to both serve her country but not fail him. And she extends herself probably way beyond what she really needed to try and fulfill that. Then sadly, she gets, I don’t want to leave any spoilers, but she isn’t given adequate support. Rachel Hore: No, he himself is somebody who had various psychological ticks, which meant that he really put himself first. He was a very manipulative man. He was manipulative of women. He was very good at charming women.  He was probably an unacknowledged homosexual, but that didn’t stop him marrying several times. A very complicated character. Although he said on paper that he was supporting his spies and he certainly did regularly meet up with Minnie and with Olga and, in some respects did his best to support her, but he was always egging her on to the next thing. And when push came to shove at the end, and he had basically had what he wanted out of her in terms of the brief he had been given. then he did abandon her. And she never really forgave him for that. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. I thought one of the clever things about the way you handled the story was that two thirds, three quarters of the way through, right the way through, really, you felt this sinking feeling of how is this poor girl ever going to have a good end from this. Real life Olga had a happy ending When she’s forced to confront the people that she was very fond of in the courtroom, for example. You feel so sorry for her, but you give her a great, happy ending, which we won’t spoil. But I hope Olga also got her happy ending. Did she? Rachel Hore: That the ending in the book is based on the real life ending, if that cheers you up. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, it does. Rachel Hore: I was very careful not to give her a fairytale ending. It isa happy ending for her, a new life and so on. But I didn’t want to make it all into something chocolate boxy. Because it wasn’t, and, you can tell from the prologue, I guess from the very beginning that what had happened to her as a spy was something that was never going to leave her. She was scared for the rest of her life. Jenny Wheeler: I think we have referred earlier to the fact that you were an editor with a big publishing house. I actually can’t remember if we’ve referred to that already or not? Rachel Hore: No.  Harper Collins, in London. Jenny Wheeler: How did you make the switch from editing to writing? I’m sure people would be interested to know that. How many years were you editing? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} How Rachel Hore got into writing fiction Rachel Hore: I was in publishing for about 18 years. I started with another publishing company for two or three years, and then I moved to Harper Collins. It wasn’t Harper Collins then, but it became Harper Collins. I was working on fiction. I was working with a range of authors, very many authors of what we tend to call women’s fiction such as Barbara Erskine and Sydney Sheldon and Susan Howatch. And a lot of what was slightly disparagingly called ‘chick lit authors.’ When it came to, around about the millennium, 2000. I was by then married and I I was having my third child. And at the same time, my husband, who is also a writer, but was also employed as a copywriter, in a big company, he went freelance. We looked at each other and we thought ‘do we want to go on working under this pressure, both of us with three children and London house prices and blah, blah, blah?’ We elected to move out of London. To do the big downsize. When we moved to Norwich, where he came from and where there was a family network and it has been a very happy move. But it left me not quite sure of who I was and what I was doing. I’d not been a full-time mother before. And I knew I wanted to keep doing something that was for me and earned a bit of money always useful. And writing was just one of a number of things that I started trying to do, and it was one of the things that happened to work out. I was writing the type of novel. That I wanted to write, but I also knew that it was the sort of novel that people wanted to read. And it was a fairly straightforward job to find an agent in that I knew I knew which people, I had a very short list of people I thought would be interested in the kind of book I was writing. A lucky break turned into one million sales But that didn’t necessarily mean that somebody wanted to publish the book. My agent sent it out to quite a number of editors and there were an awful lot of ‘no’s’. But then there was a resounding yes from Simon and Schuster. I joined their list and 13 books later, I am still with them, with the same editor, which is quite unusual these days. And I’m very grateful for it. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. That’s fantastic. You’ve earned that magic tagline Sunday Times Best Seller, which in the UK is, printed gold. I imagine. Was there one particular book that was the breakthrough book for you? How has your career gone from the beginning? Rachel Hore: I think quite often, you need a little bit of luck, a little bit of a break. And it was the fourth book that happened with, A Place Of Secrets. That was picked by the Richard and Judy show for their for their promotion. It was past the days when they had a television chat program, but they’re teamed up with W.H. Smith and between them, they all sold a lot of copies and that made a huge difference to the sales of my books. Although that particular book didn’t actually get onto the Sunday Times Bestseller list, the next one, A Gathering Storm did. Then the subsequent ones, most of them did as well. I’ve now sold over a million copies of my books and it somehow has all worked out very well. Jenny Wheeler: That sounds wonderful. A wonderful break. Obviously, the fact that you were known to them probably helped in the sense that they knew you had such a sterling background in editing and writing beforehand, but that’s fantastic. You have also been doing some teaching, haven’t you, at the University of East Anglia. What do you find with your students, and what advice would you give new writers starting out? Reading as important as writing for authors Rachel Hore: That was something I started doing shortly after I moved to Norwich. I was approached by a member of staff there who was very anxiously looking for someone to teach a publishing module. That’s something I took on and did for a number of years, branching out to teach creative writing once I myself had started writing and felt confident enough to dare to teach it to other people. They were very talented, a lot of the students that I was teaching. Some of them wanted to run before they could walk, which is quite natural. The creative writing courses at the University of East Anglia are taught very much within the context pf the critical eye, by which I mean that reading existing works is very much part of the curriculum. To be able to read other people’s books and critique them and respond to them as a writer is the approach there. And I think that advice carries on very clearly to anybody who is seeking publication to read other people’s books. Not from the point of view of wanting to copy anybody, but writing and reading is one great, big conversation. I find all the time while I’m reading for pleasure that I’m noticing how things are done successfully or otherwise. Things tick off other things in my own mind and send me down little rabbit holes, with my own writing and I find reading other authors very inspiring for my own writing. So that is my main piece of advice for a writer. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great and that leads nicely onto a question that I like to ask everyone, and that is, what are they liking to read? This is The Joys Of Binge Reading. Many of our listeners will be the Whale Readers who read a lot of books. Would you like to give some recommendations for recent books that you’ve read that you think they might enjoy? What books has Rachel Hore been reading? Rachel Hore: Yes, I should say I try to read quite widely, not necessarily in a particular genre. I’m sent a lot of book proofs by publishers, of authors books writing in a similar genre to my own. And I’m very glad to do that and to respond sometimes giving quotes for covers. I like to read a wider range of books than that. So recently, for instance, I’ve read Rose Tremain’s latest, which is Absolutely And Forever, which a story of adolescent unrequited love which is beautifully written and funny and not very long. It’s a delight to read. An author I will always read the next book of one example of this is the Crime writer Ann Cleeves. I’m a great fan of the Shetland and the Vera books. And then there’s another line that she sets in Devon in the UK. I love the American author, Ann Patchett and her books. I always read her, some I like better than others, but hey ho. What else have I read recently? I’ve read one of the books on the Booker shortlist, which is by Paul Harding, This Other Eden, which is a very unusual story. I am trying to read more widely and I like reading nonfiction as well especially history. And one of the pleasures of writing my own books is the amount of history I can read as part of my research that’s always delightful. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. That leads on nicely to the next question that I like to ask. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing in your own creative career you’d changed, what would it be? Rachel Hore: I’ve spent an awful lot of time being worried about my writing and will the books work out? Will they be published properly and so on. Sometimes I feel I haven’t stopped to enjoy the whole process enough. I think enjoyment of reading and writing well, it’s what? We do it sometimes, I don’t know, to fill time. We do it educationally and so on. But I think above all we need to enjoy what we’re doing. I’m not at the school who thinks, for instance, because you’ve started a book, you’ve got to finish reading it. Yeah, I think that business of enjoyment. What is next for author Rachel Hore? Jenny Wheeler: Yes. That’s great. What is next for Rachel as author, what have you got on your desk over the next 12 months? Let us know. You’ve probably got one coming out soon and you might be starting to think of the next one. I’m not quite sure how your timetable at Simon and Schuster to work. Rachel Hore: I am 65,000 words into the writing of another book which doesn’t yet have a title and which has to be delivered in the spring sometime, so I better get on with it. I started that in about May or June, I think last May or June. I’m only really getting the word count going now. Jenny Wheeler: Can you give us a little hint about what anything to do with the setup for that run. Rachel Hore: Yes, it’s inspired by the story of my mother and my aunt who are twins. They’re now 93, but they were both women scientists in the 1950s and had very hair-raising experiences, working in what was very much a man’s world. I interviewed them both separately to write down their stories and so on. So that was a sort of starting point for a book, which is about some women in science. It’s not in the least bit like Lessons in Chemistry by Bonnie Gomez, which has done so amazingly well. But perhaps it will provide another perspective for readers. I’ve got the paperback of The Hidden Years coming out in February here in the uk. Otherwise, I’m still doing events for The Hidden Years. So that book is very much in my mind to talk about it. Literary festivals and so on. The rest of the year I don’t know, I gave up the teaching because I felt I wasn’t getting much of a life outside work. My children are now grown up and I like to try and visit them as much as possible. And I like to see more of my friends, and but I’m also always on the lookout for something new to try. Travel new place, find new things to join and so on. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Have you got anything more recent? Rachel Hore: We’re going to Copenhagen in February, which should be nice, maybe a bit chilly. I sing in choirs. I’m going on a gardening course. We have a garden but I’m not a very proficient gardener. I want to pick up a few tips. Jenny Wheeler: Sounds good. I’m not sure with Simon and Schuster being published in that traditional way, whether they emphasize as heavily as the indie authors do about relating, interacting with your readers online. But do you interact with readers online and where can they find you online? Rachel Hore: I’m on Facebook. I have a page, but I also am there as an individual if you like. Just with my name, Rachel Hore. I’m on Twitter. I’m on Instagram, and I have put my name up on a couple of the new platforms. Threads and Blue Skies, but I haven’t really got grips with how they work yet. But I also have a website with a contact form and emails that people send via that come straight into my inbox. I had a lovely experience on Monday, slightly grumpily getting up on a Monday morning opening my laptop and there was a lovely email from a lady in Australia who said she’d just read one of my books and really loved it. She talked about it for a while and it really set me up for the day, hearing from her. Jenny Wheeler: That’s absolutely lovely, and I can confirm that you answered very promptly because I used that form to set up this meeting. It was just fantastic. You’re very reachable there. We’ll have all those links in the show notes for this episode. When it goes online, there’ll be a transcript of this word, this pa, this interview for people who don’t particularly want to listen to a podcast. So it’ll all be there as evergreen material forever more. Where to find Rachel Hore online Rachel Hore: Wow. This is a wonderful endeavour, Jenny. Thank you so much. And you must work so hard to do this and help so many people. Jenny Wheeler: Look, it’s great of you to acknowledge that because it does actually take quite an investment of time, and I must say this year I’ve decided to make it fortnightly rather than weekly for that very reason. Because I was feeling it was consuming rather a lot of time. But it is such a pleasure to have the chance to meet and talk with people like you, Rachel. So that’s the payback for me. It really is. Thanks so much for being on the show. Rachel Hore: Thank you very much for asking me. And, I do hope that your audience enjoy the interview. Jenny Wheeler: Thanks. And we’ll look forward to the science story. So you will be turning that into a fully fictionalized version, won’t you? Rachel Hore: Oh, yes. As I say, I’m 5,000 words into it now. And it should be published next spring, in Spring next year. Roundabout March, February, March 25. Jenny Wheeler: Thanks so much. Rachel Hore: Thank you, Jenny. Jenny Wheeler: Bye for now. If you enjoyed Rachel you might also enjoy…. Monica McInerney’s best-selling and award-winning books explore the resilience and fragility of family bonds, whether in a single-mother family as in her latest book, The Godmothers, or in earlier ones like the hugely popular The Trip of a Lifetime. This one introduced, as one critic put it, “a huge-hearted and colorful family you’ll want to call your own”. Australian born and Dublin based when we’re not in pandemic, Monica tops reader popularity polls for warm family stories packed with emotion on both sides of the world. Listen to Monica now! LISTEN TO Monica Next time on Binge Reading… Next time on Binge Reading. Amanda Barratt and a gripping World War II drama, Sisters of Warsaw. Amanda has got more than a dozen books to her name. She’s a Christie Award-winning novelist with some of her well-known historical novels and novels, including My Dearest Bonhoffeur, The White Rose Resists and Within These Walls Of Sorrow. This latest book, The Warsaw Sisters, focuses on the heartbreaking events that took place during the Second World War. Two sisters, Antonina and Helena grew up in Poland, living simple normal lives. But in August, 1939, the world is destroyed. That day, their father is sent off to defend Poland against the looming threat of German invasion, and they must choose different paths, not only to survive, but also to resist the Nazi occupation. That’s on the next episode of Binge Reading in two weeks time. Remember, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. That’s it for this week. Catch you next time and meanwhile, Happy Reading.

Jenny Wheeler: USA Today bestselling romcom author Emma St Clair loves sassy heroines, witty banter, and love stories with heart and humor. Her books have sizzling chemistry while keeping the bedroom door firmly closed. Jenny Wheeler: Hi, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and today on the Binge Reading podcast, Emma talks about her crazy writing process – her favorite place to write is tapping on her phone while on the elliptical machine, believe it or not. And how she discovered she’s probably ADHD – something she only realized when she was researching a story. Free St Valentine’s Romances Our Giveaway this week is Free Historical Romance, for St Valentine’s Day, – or St Valentine’s month actually. Sadie’s Vow, #1 in my Home At Last trilogy is included. Books of mine you’ll find in each offering listed below with the links to get the offer! There’s lots of other free or sale books there as well. FREE HISTORICAL ROMANCE kobo sale free sweet romance Before we get to Emma, a reminder. You can help defray the cost of the production by buying me a cup of coffee on www.buymeacoffee.com/jenny wheelx. Just a coffee a month will help! And if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links for Things Mentioned in the Show Leah Brunner. Clean and sweet  Ice hockey novella: https://leahbrunner.com/ Courtney Walsh: Clean and sweet ice hockey: https://www.amazon.com/My-Phony-Valentine-Holidays-Hart-ebook/dp/B0BTB3LPYK Books Emma recommends: Hello Stranger from Katherine Center. https://katherinecenter.com/hello-stranger Mary E. Pearson https://www.marypearson.com/ Tana French  The Likeness https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5941114-the-likeness Where to find Emma Online Website: https://emmastclair.com/ Facebook: Emma St Clair’s Epic Reader Group:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/emmastclair Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kikimojo/ Podcast: (Retired but website still up and episodes available on YouTube) www.createifwriting.com Introducing Romcom author Emma St Clair Emma St Clair – sweet and sassy ‘closed door’ romcoms Emma St Clair: Thank you. I’m so excited to be here. It’s really nice and I appreciate you reaching out. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Emma, you are a master of the sweet, sassy, funny rom-com, and you’ve written a lot of them. Tell me, how did you get started in this particular genre and what do you like about it? Emma St Clair: Well, it’s funny. I got my master’s degree in fiction, which is typically more literary. And I never thought I would write romance. In fact, I didn’t read romance. I was one of those people who poo-pooed romance, My attitude was, oh, you know, those romance books. Like that was just not my thing, and after I got my master’s, I was writing more like literary young adult fiction. I had an agent and we were submitting to New York publishers. And then we had five kids in nine years, and so I just couldn’t write at all. I had a friend, the first inkling I had that romance was a possibility, which I actually rejected. My very best friend was like, you know, a friend. April, from college, is writing these chicklet books. Hers were a little more chick lit than romance. It was right when chick lit was becoming a big thing, which I don’t think there’s even a category for that anymore. But anyway, sweet, happy books that had a little bit of romance, but were a little bit more character based. And I said, oh, I would never do that. And she was like, all right, I think you’d be good at it. And I was like, oh, no, no, no. I could not do that. I write literary fiction. How ‘literary’ author Emma found romance And then a few years later, I kept trying to see if I could write books again when my kids were at the different ages. I would try to set aside time because some of them were in preschool at different times. But it’s just a lot of kids and I just never could get back to writing literary stuff. It was way too hard. I’d written a Christmas devotional type of book. And I bought this tool called Publisher Rocket and was searching for what keywords to use. And for Christmas, the top thing that came up was Christmas Romance. And I was like, huh, that’s interesting. And my husband was just switching careers. I don’t know if he had left his job yet or we knew he was about to, and so we were going to have some uncertainty. And I thought, well maybe I’ll just try this. I mean, I could write a romance. How hard is that? Which is such a laughable thing, especially for someone who hadn’t read romance. And I made so many mistakes with the first things that I put out there. But, as I started writing and I saw that there was a rise – this was around 2018 – when there was a rise of Hallmark movies, which had been around. But I feel they went bananas over the last few years. where it’s like how many Christmas movies can we put out? I saw this growing community of writers writing Sweet Romance without any sexual content and without language. I just dove into that and I did some research and used a lot of the things that I knew from social media already from years of blogging. Romcom ‘a much better for my voice’ I didn’t really think I would like the romance genre, but I actually fell in love with it. Some of the things I love about it, it’s so hopeful and you know what you’re getting. I think beforehand that was something I didn’t understand. If you know that they’re going to end up together, what’s the point of reading the book? I didn’t really understand that it was about the journey and that the tension and the things that keep you on the edge of your seat are not the same things as a mystery or thriller. I used to read tons of those, and so I didn’t really understand the changes in romance, how that was different and how you could still keep readers on the edge of their seats with romance and a different kind of tension. I really did fall in love with the genre and then a few years later, I switched to romantic comedy just because I felt like that was a much better fit for my voice and my personality and just who I am. That turned out to be a great thing and that has really made my career and it’s so much more enjoyable than the first books I wrote that I felt like I was being a little bit more putting a lid on myself and toning things down. Now I don’t tone down and I let the humor fly, and it’s been a lot of fun. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. It sounds like you might have written a number of Christmas romances at the beginning? Emma St Clair: I started with a short story because I love a good challenge too. So when I found that keyword, Christmas Romance, it was maybe late November, and I asked myself, could I write a Christmas novella this year? And I was like, sure…. because I really do love a challenge. I decided to do that. That one is no longer published just because, again, I don’t think I knew the genre well enough to be writing it. It did okay. Fake date, sweet ice hocky romance I don’t even remember, I don’t think I was focused on the financials or the sales, but I was really pleased with how it turned out. And that kick started the hing for me. I wrote that novella. And then as a part of another series, I do have a Christmas book and I write a lot of Christmas novellas, like I get the bug and like the FOMO when I see all the Christmas books coming out, but it’s always like November. And then I’m like, do I have time? No, I don’t. And then I’m like, but I’m gonna do it anyway. I have one full length book that’s Christmas, and then two or three novellas. Jenny Wheeler: The latest book that we are talking about today is Just Don’t Fall and it’s a fake date, ice hockey rom-com. It’s really fun. I loved it. Now, of course I’m living in New Zealand. We do have ice hockey, but barely, and I associate ice hockey with the northern US and Canada particularly. And I know that you are living in Texas, so I did think why is she interested in ice hockey when she lives in Texas? Emma St Clair: Yeah, so we don’t have a team in Houston. We used to have a pro team The Arrows and they left. I don’t even know what year they left. Sometime soon after I moved to Houston the team left. So hockey was more of a pragmatic choice for me. Just Don’t Fall was part of a Sweater Weather series that I ran with another author. It was a group of seven of us and we planned it out to do a series of fall books. And in the past, whenever I’ve done a multi-author thing or something that’s not my own series, I tend to lose money. I was really excited about this series, but I was like, okay, what is my best bet? As far as what’s selling right now, what will help this book have another little boost coming behind it. And I knew that in the spicier steamier romance category, hockey was huge and so I was like, let’s do that then. We’ll just add that trope in there and we’ll make my book in this series a hockey book. Big burly guys being delicate and precise I have written sports romances in the past. I have some former football players and then I had a series that I’ve taken down and I’m reworking that was football players as well, because football’s huge here. My husband played football, my kids play football. Even one of my daughters plays football. But for hockey it was just really because it was hot. Hot as like a trope, not literally hot obviously, but it’s funny because the idea really for the team came from the Savannah Bananas, which is a baseball team here in Savannah, Georgia. And they’re really savvy on social media. I thought what if I do that but hockey? It’s been really fun. I had to go to a hockey game. I realized actually, almost too late. I think I’d been to one when I was really young, but I realized I need to go and no, none of them are here in Houston. And I looked at the schedule and it was probably about May. I looked at the schedule and the very last game was the very next night. And it was midnight, I think. I texted my husband who was asleep and said something like, just FYI, I’m going to Austin tomorrow for work to see hockey. He was like, okay. He’s very used to me doing very spur of the moment things like this. But I do love hockey. I will say I’m not a person who knows tons about it. I don’t get to go often since we don’t have it. But I think there’s something about these big, burly guys doing something delicate and precise on the ice. It really is amazing to watch the skillset that it takes. I love team sports. I love writing books that have families or teams or brothers or friend groups because I think that’s really fun to have. That cast of supporting characters. So that’s one of the things I really loved about writing. And it was really fun. I just went to another hockey game. We drove to Austin again and went to see a hockey game last weekend, which was super fun. It really was just about what’s selling right now. I try to find that balance between what I want to write and what is marketable. Just because I am right now our main full-time income, and so I want to be happy with what I’m writing, but I also do look at like the trends in what I see selling. Ice hockey and clean romance – on the rise Jenny Wheeler: And I see you did a blog about how ice hockey and clean romance is on the rise. I gather ice hockey books have been known to be fairly steamy in the past. Why do you think that is? You seem to be almost creating a wave there. Emma St Clair: I think that there tends to be, not always but there tends to be a trickle down effect where if something is really popular in the steamy books, it comes to clean romance or closed door romance, whatever people want to call it. There are so many terms. It comes there a little bit later. There was an author, I think after I’d started writing this book, an author named Leah Brunner. She’d written a hockey novella, but her first hockey book in a series came out and did. So well, and so that was really the first I saw that was a huge smashing success and even a lot of steamy readers were reading it and enjoying it. And so it was really nice to see that. And Courtney Walsh also had one before that My Phony Valentine. And those were the first at least romantic comedies that I’d seen that were closed door hockey And the Fall series did really well. I can’t answer for all the authors who are now writing the clean hockey, but there’s a lot of them. a lot of, indie authors. We’re able to move more quickly because we’re just doing it ourselves. We’re not having to wait on a publisher and their schedule of things that they have going. If you see a trend picking up, it’s pretty easy for some of us, especially if you can write quickly, to hop into that trend. I’m not sure how long it’ll last. Maybe next year it’ll be football because of, Taylor Swift and her influence on football right now. But you just never know what’s going to happen. If you’re trying to write to market and write keeping up with these trends, we’re able to move quickly if you’re able to write fast. And so who knows, it may be something totally different next year, but either way, I’m pretty excited about seeing so many of these and actually just even the rise of cleaner sports books. Keeping it authentic a challenge I think it can be harder to write in some ways, because I think we all get that sense of the stereotypical athlete where they use a lot of language and they have tons and tons of women, in different cities which doesn’t really fly as well in the kind of content I’m writing. Sometimes it can be a challenge to write realistic sports figures who are not sleeping with everybody and it’s not all there on the page. To get that sweeter side where it still feels authentic can be a bit of a challenge. But it’s been nice to see so many more of these books on the rise and readers really enjoying them. Jenny Wheeler: You made the decision to do closed door romance right from the beginning of your career though. What made you decide on that? Emma St Clair: I actually made the decision back when I was in graduate school and trying to decide what kind of content I wanted in my stories and in my books. Some of it has to do with my faith. I am a Christian. And there was this idea of what kind of content do I want to be putting out in the world? It’s not like I don’t watch R rated movies, and I read all across heat levels, for the most part, though there’s some things I definitely didn’t read that are too far for me, just personally. But as far as what I wanted to put out into the world and what I wanted to create, I decided all the way back then, that was what, 2005 that I wanted to try to write the best stories that I could that did not have language or at least not really strong language. I think sometimes my books have language that would probably be still like a PG movie rating. Very mild, but mild language and not to have a lot of sexual content just because I think there are a lot of readers who want that, who want really good movies and books and TV shows that they can enjoy where the characters feel real, but it’s also not heavy in that kind of content. Again, I like challenges. That was going to be my challenge – to try to write authentic characters, where it doesn’t feel stifled, it doesn’t feel fake. And I’m also not really writing books that have faith in them. It’s not like I’m pushing a Christian agenda in the books either. Clean and wholesome ‘gives readers options’ It’s just more about I see tons and tons of content on the steamy side. And so I think it’s my contribution to the world for the people who either don’t mind reading books without steam or who are specifically looking for that. I love adding into that little arena more choices for people who might want to read books that don’t have any kind of content in them. I made the choice actually back in 2005 and I think I’ll stick with that. There’ve been times I’ve questioned it, what if I wrote this kind of thing? But I think that’s just where I’m going to land, and probably stay. Jenny Wheeler: We mentioned that Just Don’t Fall is a fake dating story. For those who perhaps aren’t quite so familiar with romance tropes, give us an idea of what the setup for that book is. I think you do it beautifully. I t really is very convincing and it’s interesting that the male character comes across in this particular book as being a little bit more emotionally aware than the female character, in some ways, it’s quite refreshing. Tell us about it. Emma St Clair: Fake dating. It’s actually one of the hard ones for me to write because I don’t believe it. How many of us are really going around and doing that? I actually, I asked that question, then I realized, wait, I had a fake boyfriend once, but it was at camp when I was like 14. So I’m not sure that fully counts, but it does get hard for me to suspend disbelief. But fake dating is one of the most popular tropes. If you ask readers, I feel like over and over again, people just love fake dating and I do understand why, and I think the reason or one of the reasons people like it, it has that whole thing where it forces them to be together. It forces them to be in proximity to each other. It forces them to have this fake emotional connection. The fun side of the fake dating trope And then they have to think about are the feelings real? And there’s usually a scene where they set up the rules for the fake dating.  I love the rule setting and I love also when they tiptoe up to the rules and then step right across them. I just think that’s really fun. I struggle with the believability of it just because I’m like, really, what adults are actually faking relationships? This one I felt worked pretty well, where it was more like she told a little fib to her dad that blew out of control. And then it worked really well for his career and his image, it was something that snowballed. It wasn’t so much ‘let’s set out to deceive the world.’ It was more like, here’s a tiny little thing, it’ll be one date and then it just spiraled into something bigger. I love reading fake dating books, but when it comes to writing them, I always struggle because I’m like, is this really believable? And then I have to remind myself, romance readers, and it depends. Because when you have somebody, like I have family members and friends who don’t read romance and then they read my books and they comment ‘that was interesting.’ And I say, oh, you’re not a romance reader. Because the romance readers, I feel like we come into things with this set of expectations for the genre and for even the tropes. But I still really want things to be as realistic as I can. And that’s always the challenge for me with the fake dating ’cause I don’t buy it myself, like in most books. You have to suspend disbelief. But as a writer, I want to make it as believable as possible while still knowing. This is not happening most of the time in people’s real lives. Spin off series – A sports romance plus Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting because I did notice that you’ve got the one that’s coming next, I think, called The Wild Guard. That also is a fake dating book, isn’t it? Emma St Clair: I think so. I’m a pantser and so I think that’s what’s happening.  – we’ll see. Sometimes the books surprise me, I hadn’t necessarily meant for the books to come in exactly that order. It ends up looking like I’m doing a whole ton of fake dating. I think I will publish another hockey book. I’m doing a spinoff series from Just Don’t Fall with some of the teammates because I just loved them so much. And hockey’s so hot. So I think I’m doing a marriage of convenience, which is. really similar in a lot of ways ’cause it’s the same thing, just on a bigger scale ’cause you’re actually getting married. I think I’m gonna have a marriage of convenience and then another fake dating. So it seems like that’s my obsession, but I think it just happened that way. So I’m gonna have to really get good at making up good excuses. For all these reasons, people have to fake these relationships. Jenny Wheeler: I’m so glad to hear you say that you were going to write about. some of the other team members, because that’s one of the things I love about books like Just Don’t Fall. That you have an introduction to a number of other guys and you’re starting to think, I wonder what’s going on in his head, and so I was going to ask you, because if it was in a series like Sweater Weather, then maybe you didn’t quite have the space there to do all the other team members, but you’re going to do a spinoff series, so that’s fantastic. Emma St Clair: I love spinoff series. In fact, a lot of my series end up that way. Like I’ll have a series and some of the side characters just demand stories, and if they don’t fit into that series, then I break off and give them another. So yeah, Jenny Proctor and I got together. She wrote another hockey book in that Sweater Weather series, the last book, Absolutely Not In Love about Felix the Goalie. The attractions of the ‘fading star’ She and I are going to write a series together. Not co-write them. We’re each doing our own books and we may not alternate. We’ll see how many we get, but we both love teammates. I think that’s the best. That’s when you’ve created this great side character is when you’re like, and you want to know their story. I love it when the side characters demand a story. And I also like it when the readers want that too. We did hear a lot of readers talk about ‘we want more Appies.’ (The name of the hockey franchise – Ed Note) And I’m pretty excited about delivering that up.. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. The book before this, the Buy-In was a pro football book. I wondered also if that idea of a sports star who’s reaching the pinnacle of a career or almost past it and is starting to face problems, whether the failing sports star idea is also something that readers love because your football book is a little bit like Logan in Just Don’t Fall. A guy who’s been a big name and is starting to fade a little bit. Emma St Clair: I love those stories. In some ways it can make it easier if they’re not in the sport. There are so many details you have to research to get a sport right, if they’re actually playing. And man, I hate research. I will say that’s why I write contemporary, and I will never write historical. I cannot do research. But if you’re writing somebody who’s currently playing the sport, you have to get a lot more things right. For me, like in terms of ease, I love writing players who’ve come out of the sport. So in the Buy-In, he had come out and was trying to find himself. I like that idea of you have your identity wrapped up in this big thing, the celebrity of it, and the excitement of it. What does the sports ‘afterlife’ look like? And then you’re having to decide what does the rest of my life look like? What’s my purpose? I feel like Pat – Patrick – Graham in that book was really searching for that purpose and trying to figure that out and hadn’t really found what that purpose was until his dad bought this tiny town in Texas and he reconnected with someone he’d loved years before. I love writing about heroes, but it’s best when you’re writing about a hero who is either struggling or a hero that has had significant setbacks and they’re having to grapple with what that looks like for their life and what their identity is now that, this thing that they have had is ending or changing. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Look, you’ve got a very active family life. You’ve got five children, a great Dane and a hubby, and you write in your Goodreads page that your favorite place for writing is tapping on your phone on an elliptical machine, which I thought was hilarious and probably was a joke, but how much of a joke is it? Emma St Clair: It’s not, it is totally real. I do my very best and most writing on the elliptical, I ended up buying one during Covid because the gyms were all closed. It was in my office, and then we bought a new house. I don’t know why this house has two garages, it’s not a mansion, but for whatever reason it has two garages. And neither one has a car in it. One a workout room with my elliptical and some weights for my husband and my sons. Actually, I use them too. And then the other one has a poker table, because we’re a big poker family too. But I write on the elliptical on my phone, which I just discovered by accident was a thing that I could do. Emma St Clair’s unique writing process I realize how nuts that sounds every time I tell someone. They’re curious about how but I’ve been using an elliptical machine since like college and I could do a lot of stuff on there without falling off. It’s low impact, and I’m pretty used to it. When my kids were little I would go to the YMCA to write and I would bring my laptop and the kids would go into childcare. They had a two hour per day thing. They’d go in childcare, I’d sit in the YMCA lobby with a cup of coffee and write, and that was sometimes the only writing time I got all day. And I remember we finished up one time and I wanted to go to the gym. When you have a lot of kids and you have a full day, you plan activities. We did the Y and then we did the gym where I’d work out. We went to the gym for me to work out. And I was thinking, ‘man, I’m not done with the scene I’ve just been working on. I’ll just jot down a few ideas.’ And so I pulled up the notes app on my phone while I was on the elliptical, and then 45 minutes later I was thinking, oh my gosh, I just wrote an entire chapter and I was in this total, focused zone. And it was good words. I had to reformat things. And so now I do it in Google Docs; so now I do it intentionally. I was like, if I could do that once, maybe I can do that again. What I’ve found too is it really does help with my focus. It’s not great for my eyesight. I’m actually like trying to figure out what are the best options in terms of making sure I don’t make myself go blind, staring at a phone for an hour at a time. But I also, now this year I got one of those – not super expensive – but a treadmill, It’s not one that inclines or anything, it’s like a very simple treadmill and then a standing desk. I actually have just started this week writing on the computer at the standing desk on the treadmill, which is fantastic. And you’d think for all this, I’d look like I’m in great shape. I don’t, it just keeps me moving. And a discovery that might help explain why But while researching, I think, what book was it? Oh Falling For Your Best Friend. One of my first romcoms. I was researching a character who had ADHD and some other neurodivergent things. And while studying all this stuff and taking some tests and taking notes, I discovered I prob ably, actually have ADHD myself. I haven’t gotten an official diagnosis. I probably won’t because at this point, I’m 46 and have mostly been coping with this my whole life. But that’s one of the things; this hyper focus and this idea of combining the exercise with the writing, that’s something that totally makes sense for that kind of brain. And I think that’s one reason I can get very distracted. There are many different ways that I write. Before my kids were all in school, I had that two hour window and that was all I had. So it just crammed it in there. But now that my kids are all in school and I have these long days, it’s so easy to get distracted. The one place I don’t get distracted is when I’m exercising. And so that’s just become a part of my routine. Maybe that’ll change, maybe I’ll find a different way, and next year it’ll be different. I think there’s different seasons for sure. Why not try something? I never would’ve thought, that’s how I write. Nobody ever talks about that. But I think as a writer, trying different things and seeing if it works, whether that be plotting a different way, or pantsing a different way, or trying to write on a different kind of device, or trying to write in a different location. Like you never know what’s going to be the thing that helps a lot. I would never have thought this is how I would write, but at this moment, that’s how I get my very best words. I don’t edit very well on the elliptical or the treadmill, but for writing my first drafts, it works really well. A ‘typical’ writing day for a mother-of-five Jenny Wheeler: That’s amazing and it does lead on to the obvious question of, give us a quick rundown on what a typical writing day looks like for you, or do you have such a thing as a typical writing day? Emma St Clair: I try to have a typical writing day, but I’m also not great with schedules. I love for things to be a little bit more open-ended. But for me, what I’ve found, I used to be such a night owl. I actually still think I’m a night owl, but I just don’t think my brain works as well at night. I love staying up late. When my kids were little, I would try to write at night because that was all I had, or, those two hours at the Y. But now, if I write first thing in the morning, it’s the best. So, I get my kids off to school. My husband’s a teacher at the school where four of them go to, so he takes four of them to school. Right now, I’m taking one of them to the other school, and then I come home and hop on the elliptical machine and I get right to it. What I found is if I don’t get started right away, if I start checking Instagram or I go on Facebook Messenger then, or do these little tasks, I’ll get caught up in the little task and never write. My goal keeps being to write from eight to 12, every morning, but that doesn’t always happen. If I had to list out all the things I do in a day, I think it would exhaust me, even. And so I don’t. When you’re running your own. business, which is really what you’re doing as an indie author, there just are so many little detailed things to do. A million reasons not to get writing Today it was talking to a web designer to make sure my email domain was verified and authenticated. I don’t even actually know what that means, but I had to hire someone to do it and explain it to her and spend 30 minutes giving her my passwords and getting that done. There’s just always some kind of little thing to do. And if I can, I try to shove those things into the afternoon and schedule interviews like this for the afternoon so that my time in the morning could be protected. But it’s so easy to have that get thrown off. Like tomorrow, I’ve got to take my son to the orthodontist. That’s going to be my – not my whole day – but man, it’s a drive. Houston? Everything’s a drive. But that’s the main goal. The kids come home by around four, some of them earlier, but by four o’clock everybody’s home. And so everything has to be done because from four o’clock till bedtime, it’s sports and dinner and homework and all kinds of things, and a lot of noise. I get from about eight till four to some degree it’s usually not quite that whole time, but yeah. Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned that you had a master of arts, and I did sense that you probably started out expecting to do literary fiction. Have you got still any unrealized ambitions for the literary fiction side of things? Emma St Clair: Yes. I think by the time all is said and done, I bet I’ll be writing in a lot of genres, and literary may be one of those. I do still love reading literary fiction. I loved getting my degree and being around people who were writing literary fiction. My professors were amazing, and going to these readings? It was fantastic. It was very inspiring. I think probably a lot of them are asking, what are you doing with your career with this, with the romance and all that? Because that’s how I thought. But I do think I’ll go back to that someday and I wouldn’t be surprised if I change things Never say never when it comes to the future I’ve looked at doing hybrid stuff and working with an agent, whether I’m doing rom-coms or something else, and doing traditional publishing. I think that probably by the time I’ve gone my whole life, I bet I’ll be writing in a bunch of genres, so I wouldn’t count out literary fiction, but right now I’m just loving what I’m writing. Especially since I started the rom coms. I think I put up my first rom-com during Covid year, it was 2020 when things started. And I just think from then and even on now, there’s so much bad news, there’s so many heavy things and so many people struggling. There always are, but I think the last couple years have been particularly hard for people. I love writing something that just brings joy and it makes me so happy when people send me messages or post in my Facebook group or send me a note on Instagram to say, your book made me laugh out loud. And I just feel like that is such a gift. When I was little, I used to read my parents’ Reader’s Digest, except I wouldn’t read the whole thing. I don’t know if you have those. (We did) But it’s like this little, monthly magazine newsletter with all these articles, but there was always one page called Laughter’s the Best Medicine. And published these tiny little quips just to make you laugh. When my parents would get Reader’s Digest, I would grab it and I wouldn’t read anything else. I would just go and find Laughter’s the Best Medicine. And I really do think that. So for now. I love what I’m doing. It’s paying the bills and people love it. It’s a perfect place for me. I do have lots of literary interests, but also genre fiction, and I think it’s been very nice for me to open my mind where I used to think poorly of some genre fiction because again, that can come when you get an academic degree with literary fiction. I feel like I can still absolutely respect literary fiction, but I can also respect people writing a story because I think that’s really ultimately what it’s about. The importance of story in any genre Human beings connect with story and you can write a literary story or you can write a thriller story or you can write a romcom story. As humans we connect to that element of story, whatever kind of genre you’re writing. I can appreciate them more now. I’m glad that I feel like my mind has been opened a little bit more, where I was a bit snobbier, like especially right when I got my degree. And I just really enjoy it. To me it’s about the enjoyment of it. Yes, I’m happy that what I’m doing makes money, but I’m also really happy that I can bring joy to people and enjoy writing it. So yes, I think I’ll go back to literary at some point, but then again, maybe not, If I continue to be happy writing when I’m writing, I think ultimately the end thing is I’m not going to close any door and say I won’t write that. Because I think probably the moment I say that, then I’ll start writing it. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. If there was one thing that you’d say is the secret of your success in quotes, what would it be? Emma St Clair: Oh man, that’s hard. I used to have a podcast for writers called Create If Writing. One of the things I kept coming back to  – well, I guess I’ll put two things. One is the writing itself. I think writing stories that connect, whether you’re writing literary, whether you’re writing romance, whether they’re writing thriller stories that really connect and resonate with readers. And that’s very vague. There’s a lot of aspects to that, but in general, working on the craft and working on the story so that you’re writing what resonates with people. But the second thing, I’ve always been a big proponent of taking readers on the journey from being a casual reader to a raving fan. And so, building a community, and really honoring those readers and working to – I always say this – I want my readers to maybe they pick up my book because they just wanted a romcom, and then I want them to read my book and not just want another romcom, but to want another Emma Romcom. And so trying to make both my books themselves have some unique aspects that are unique to me and my brand, I guess as a whole author and in the books, the content itself. And then also outside of that, in my Facebook group and on Instagram, how I present myself online. So when I connect with readers as well, that there’s this sense of belonging and inviting people in. It’s my own special brand of that. And it’s not for everybody, I definitely have some really good friends who have said ‘it’s just not for me.’ And it’s that’s okay. Building reader community a key to success This isn’t for you, that’s fine. But I do think trying to, not just, as sometimes in the indie community, get books out as fast as you can, or just write to the market. All those things can be helpful. That advice can work. But I think that the evergreen advice you get that’s never going to change is ‘write great books and then build this sense of community around your books and around your author brand.’ Those are the two things that I think are the most important. Jenny Wheeler: Why did you give up your podcast? I’m interested. Emma St Clair: Oh yeah. One thing was time. I tend to be one of those people… I’ve heard the term like magic time, where you don’t really think about if you have time to do something or not. You just do it and that can work or not work. And that tends to be how I do things. Like I decided to start a podcast. I didn’t think, do I have time to do this? I just did it. And then for years I just continued to do it and at a certain point it just got to be too much because the writing was becoming more and more my main focus. I started the podcast when I wasn’t writing books. I was blogging and I was doing the podcast. I always have to do something creative. So even when my kids were little, if I couldn’t write books, I had to do something. I just have that urge, like I have a need to create things. But getting back to the podcast, also, I felt like I was ready to just hang it up. I just was ready to. I’d shared so many things about my journey. I’d been very transparent about things, and it was just really time, I think, to focus on the writing itself, which had always been the goal. And so I feel like the other things that I did along the way with blogging and social media and podcasting were a side arm. Knowing when to quit also important And then once I realized hey, I’m doing the thing that I always wanted to do, which is writing books, and the podcast is really just taking away time that I could be giving to the main thing. It was sad, but at the same time it, it felt very good and I don’t regret it. I actually just stopped paying for the podcast hosting this month. So they’re still up on YouTube, but they’re not going to be on the podcast players. And I had this moment of oh, it’s the end of an era. And I felt sad about it, but at the same time, I have no regrets and had no desire to continue. When I stopped I thought maybe I’ll come back to it. And then the longer I went, I felt there are things I miss about it, but that part of me that loved it is now being fulfilled in another way. It’s being fulfilled in the writing of books. It was a really nice era. I loved having a podcast. Jenny Wheeler: That’s gorgeous. Look, we always like to ask our guests about their own reading tastes and whether they’ve got something they’d like to recommend to our listeners. And it is a popular fiction podcast, so we do focus on that genre area of fiction. Tell us what you’re reading at the moment, and if you’ve got anything you’d like to recommend. Emma St Clair: Right now, I’m in a slump. Anyone else ever been in a book slump? I don’t know what caused it, but I just keep starting books. I don’t like to always say that I DNF (Did Not Finish) them. I like to say I PFN them (Pause For Now) because I usually come back. Books Emma loves to read Everything I’ve started in the last two weeks I’ve been PFN-ing. But I was looking over at my bookshelf, some of the ones I’ve really enjoyed in the last year or two, and these are all different genres, but I really enjoyed, She lives in Houston, so I got to meet her recently. She is so delightful. And then a duology that I absolutely loved and have reread a couple times is Mary Pearson. It’s Dance of Thieves and Vow of Thieves, which is like high fantasy, which is a totally separate kind of place. And I’ve loved those books. I think it’s one of the best enemies to lovers I’ve ever read. I guess it’s more like romantasy, because there’s romance in the fantasy, but those are some that I’ve really enjoyed. And then as far as the thriller side Tana or Tana French, but she’s Irish and there’s a book she wrote called The Likeness and it takes place in Ireland, and I loved that one. If you’re a thriller reader, that one was fantastic. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. Look, thanks so much. We are coming to the end of our time together. We’ve done wonderfully, we’ve covered so much ground. But you obviously are a person who loves to relate online. Tell us about your online presence and how people can find you. Where to find Emma online Emma St Clair: Yeah, so I’m mostly active – I’m everywhere, but I’m not active everywhere. I’m mostly active on Instagram. My handle is Kikimojo, which I started doing social media. I was like an early adopter to everything. And so I was on Instagram the very first year and it was when I was doing roller derby. So all of my social media handles – Pinterest, Instagram, most of them – are Kiki Mojo. That was my roller derby skater name. Which I just decided to keep because it had been so many years. I decided not to switch. That’s where I post most frequently. And then I have a Facebook group. I have a Facebook group for authors called Create If Writing that went along with the podcast, but it’s still active even without the podcast. And then I have an Emma St. Clair Reader Group. I think if you search Emma, you’ll find it, I think it’s like Emma Epic Reader Group or something like that. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Fantastic. We’ll put those all in the show notes for this episode so people will be able to track you down. Emma. Look, it’s been great fun talking. It really has, you’re just the most entertaining person and I must say I love the book, so I’ll be looking up the other team members. Emma St Clair: Thank you so much. I’m so glad you enjoyed. I’m actually wearing my, I’m wearing my Appie sweatshirt, so I’m all like geared up, but yeah, there should be another book coming soon. It was great to talk to you, so thank you for having me. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fun. Thank you so much. Bye now. Emma St Clair: Bye. If you enjoyed Emma you might also enjoy… Kate’s romcoms too We featured Kate as our Valentine’s Day author last year… She’s a fellow Kiwi, an author friend of Emma St Clair’s and the best selling author of laugh out loud, rom coms, sweet romance, and feel good stories with gorgeous Happily Ever Afters. Never Fall For The One That Got Away, is the last book in the It’s Complicated series that asks and beautifully answers. a key question: If life gives you a second chance with the one that got away, do you take it? LISTEN TO KATE O’KEEFE Next Time On Binge Reading Binge reading is fortnightly this year, so our next show air on February the 28th. Rachel Hore is the UK Sunday Times bestselling author whose latest book, The Hidden Years is a story of secrets, loss and betrayal set in Cornwall during World War II, and then looking ahead closer to contemporary times, in the heady days of the 1960s. When talented folk musician Gray convinces Belle to bail out of her university studies and follow him to a communal country house, it’s not just the idea of a carefree summer that draws her in. As the summer unfolds, Belle begins to learn the truth about secrets from the past that have been kept hidden by her family and also about the person she wants to be. That’s the end of this month on The Joys Of Binge Reading. And just before I go, another reminder, leave us a review so others will find us too. That’s it for now. Thanks for listening and happy reading

 Rochelle Weinstein loves bitter sweet women’s stories about finding identity through love and loss and her latest, What You Do To Me introduces pioneer female Rolling Stone magazine, journalist Cecilia, who obsessively pursues the story while – unacknowledged – her closest relationship crashes and burns around her, Hi, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and in today’s Binge Reading episode, Rochelle, a former music industry exec, talks about how popular music forms a soundtrack to our lives and why she finds sweet stories of women’s lives so alluring. Our Giveaway This Week Our Giveaway this week is an action and adventure giveaway, fiction in all genres, free downloads of mystery, romance or crime, including Unbridled Vengeance. Book #5 in the Of Gold & Blood series, a historical mystery with a romantic sub plot, When Californian rancher Caleb is falsely accused of a vicious murder, his French immigrant neighbor, Madeleine has evidence that will save him from the gallows.. Will she risk her own life to save his? You’ll find the link to download a wide range of books in the show notes for this episode on the website, the joys of binge reading com. DOWNLOAD FREE BOOKS Now just another housekeeping matter before we get to Rochelle. A reminder you can help defray the costs of production of the show by buying me a cup of coffee on buy me a coffee.com/jennywheelx. Thank you Nick, for buying me a coffee last week. buy me a coffee And remember, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links to things mentioned in the episode Hey There Delilah – Plain White Ts: https://www.teenvogue.com/story/heres-the-actual-story-behind-hey-there-delilah Spotify Playlists for What You Do to Me: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/2GhwfbTm3xzs2Z9jRje2zW?si=aW2qeHSDT-GALkCAV8zKnw&pi=u-TC_ooXsRR7yC https://open.spotify.com/playlist/4kKq1hJpvGEJD7G3T5EOZm?si=qbhlIZioT56PHPd7L88gNw&pi=u-F7QVF5cESmmb Books Rochelle loves: A Little Life, Hanya Yangihara https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22822858-a-little-life Lisa Barr, The Goddess of Warsaw, https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-goddess-of-warsaw-lisa-barr?variant=41099496980514 Annabel Monaghan, https://annabelmonaghan.com/ (Annabel on The Joys of Binge Reading –https://thejoysofbingereading.com/annabel-monoghan-evocative-romcoms/ ) The Stationery Shop, Marjan Kamali, https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/42201995 Patti Callahan Henry, The Secret Book of Flora Lee, https://www.patticallahanhenry.com/the-secret-book-of-flora-lea (Patti Callahan Henry on The Joys of Binge Reading, https://thejoysofbingereading.com/patti-callahan-narnia-magic/) Barbara Davis, the Keeper of Happy Endings, Echo of Old Books, https://barbaradavis-author.com/ Sam Woodruff, https://www.samanthawoodruff.com/ Alison Wynne-Ryder,  https://www.thequirkymedium.com/home/about-alison Taylor Jenkins Reid, https://taylorjenkinsreid.com/ Lynne Golodner author and writing coach:  https://lynnegolodner.com/ Where to find Rochelle online Website: www.rochelleweinstein.com Social media: Facebook, Threads, X. Introducing author Rochelle Weinstein Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Rochelle. Hello there, Rochelle, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Rochelle B Weinstein, women’s fiction with bittersweet key Rochelle Weinstein: Thank you, Jenny. I’m thrilled to be here with everybody. Jenny Wheeler: Now we’re talking about the latest book that you’ve recently published called What You Do To Me, and I thought we’d just start out for people who aren’t familiar with your work by asking you how you’d classify it. It’s a romance, but it’s more than a romance as well, isn’t it? What category would you put it into? Rochelle Weinstein: I think it’s women’s fiction with a nice romance nestled between the pages. I think that’s a good way to describe it. Jenny Wheeler: Sure, and it’s emotionally intimate, but a mild heat level as they describe romance, isn’t it? Rochelle Weinstein: Yeah. I’m pretty much known for writing emotionally evocative stories. They’re layered, they have depth to them. I’m hoping this one doesn’t disappoint. I. Jenny Wheeler: I’m sure it won’t. I haven’t read any of your other books, but I love this one. It joyously celebrates popular music. What You Do To Me refers to a popular hit song of the early two thousands, which we’ll talk about in a moment, but it’s very much involved with how important life moments for most of us often have a soundtrack of music. Can you tell us, is that how you see life and do you have those important moments yourself? Popular music – soundtrack of our lives Rochelle Weinstein: Oh my God, music and books are a huge part of my history and I hear a certain song and I am literally transported back to childhood, to high school, to college years. Just like nostalgic moments. I remember the song that was playing when I had my first kiss. I remember, unfortunately, the song when I was saying goodbye to my mother. Those are what I call the soundtrack of my life. I think a lot of us have a soundtrack in our lives of all the songs that were there for those pivotal moments. Jenny Wheeler: I do agree. The title, What You Do To Me as I just referred to, is taken from the lyrics of a Plain White Ts’ song. It’s actually in the chorus and it plays a major role in the story. I wondered if you’d just give us a little bit of an introduction to the setup of the story. Rochelle Weinstein: Okay What You Do To Me is actually a line from the song Hey, There Delilah by the Plain White Ts. I loved this song and when it came out – I’m always curious to know the story behind a song – and I wondered if there was a real Delilah, And there was a real Delilah. Tom Higgenson from the Plain White Ts met her in a bar in Chicago and she had a boyfriend at the time and he’s said ‘I’m gonna write you a song.’ And she was like, ‘oh, but I have a boyfriend.’ And a lot of people thought that was cringey and kind of stalkerish, but I thought it was one of the most romantic things in the world. And so they didn’t end up together, although she did end up going to the Grammys with him. And I was like, ‘Darn.’ A great song didn’t end up the way I wanted it to.  So I decided that I was going to reinvent the story with wholly different characters in a wholly different timeframe. A female Rolling Stone reporter And what it became is the story of Cecilia James, who’s a 26-year-old Rolling Stone reporter, and she is on the hunt for the muse behind this famous love song called What You Do To Me. And it takes us back in dual timelines from 1970s Miami Beach, where we meet this young couple, Sara and Eddie, who are star cross lovers and how it eventually evolves and merges into present day and Cecilia. She is finding this muse – Sara – for this love song while she’s also at the same time working on her own relationships. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And there is an aspect of it where she’s obsessively chasing somebody else’s romantic story while her own close relationship is crashing and burning around her. There’s a terrible section of the book where you can sense that she’s heading for disaster and she just can’t quite see it at that point. Was there something particularly tantalizing for you about that aspect of the story? Rochelle Weinstein: I think that for Cecilia her relationship with her parents, drove a lot of her choices, especially her romantic choices, and it’s something that a lot of us come across. We wonder, how much do we deserve? And how much do these earlier relationships affect our current relationships. I think that chasing this muse -it’s a case of it’s ‘be careful what you wish for’ and sometimes what you get what you want. I think Cecilia clearly had an intimacy issue. And even though she wanted to have this big love, I think at the end of the day she didn’t think she deserved it and it was just easier for her to immerse herself in somebody else’s love story. The playlists to go with the book Jenny Wheeler: That’s a great way of putting it. I loved one aspect of the book, which was each chapter had a song at the beginning of it, and it was a song with a person’s name in it. We start off with Elton John’s Levon, and then halfway through the book we get Steve Winwood’s Valeries and we go on to Neil Diamond’s Crackling Rosie, and every single chapter, and there are 45 chapters, have these songs. How did you come to decide on those songs? Rochelle Weinstein: It’s funny I’ve been asked by a bunch of readers what the significance of the songs for each chapter were, and I said, you give me too much credit. I’m not that talented. They were randomly picked. I literally Googled songs that had names in them. The only thing that I was a little bit more particular about is I kept them within the timeframe of the novel. The songs came out during either the seventies or the eighties or the nineties. And they were also some of my favorite songs. I grew up on Elton John and I grew up on Winwood and I grew up on Neil Diamond and so those were part of the soundtrack of my life. That’s really how I came up with those titles. They basically were just any title that had a name in it. Jenny Wheeler: I must admit that quite fascinated me. I thought of creating my own song list from this book, and then I thought; ‘Somebody’s probably already done it.’ I went on to Spotify and blow me down. There was everything there. Some other wonderful person had created a song list. And then I thought, did you listen to those songs yourself while you were writing the book? Rochelle Weinstein: In the interest of full disclosure, I was the incredible person who made the playlist. I created two Spotify playlists. One, it was the song chapters and one was any song that was mentioned throughout the story. So there were two playlists, and did I listen to those songs as I was writing?  I actually did not, I don’t really listen to music while I’m writing. I can typically write anywhere and it’s not that it’s a distraction. For some reason I just wasn’t listening to those songs. I probably should say that I did for inspiration. Daisy Jones and the Six ‘an inspiration’ Jenny Wheeler: I know what you mean. I’ve got one playlist that I listen to with songs, but it is very quiet piano music. It’s very unobtrusive and any song with the lyrics actually, I find a bit distracting. I know what you’re talking about there. We do put all of these links in the show notes for this episode, so I’ll make sure we put these into the show notes too for people who might interested. There were songs that you referred to as you went along and I thought, I’m not sure if I know that one. That sort of feeling. So it would be fun to pick up on them. I noticed that you in. I wondered if you’d been inspired by books related to music or pop music.  There has been a sub- genre of these books coming through like Daisy Jones and the Six which probably made the idea made it famous, but there’s quite a few of them. Have you got some favorites in that area yourself? Rochelle Weinstein: Obviously Daisy Jones and the Six. was one of my absolute Top 10 reads in the last, I don’t know, however many years. I loved that book. I devoured that book. It inspired me to write about music. I used to be in the music industry and my first novel, What We Leave Behind, tackled parts of the music industry, but not as full blown as I did in What You Do To Me. There are so many wonderful books out there that have music is a character. And I just decided that I was going to merge my passion for writing and for books and for reading into the book that I wanted to read. And that was What You Do To Me. Exploring love and loss in bittersweet key Jenny Wheeler: Your previous books… I was intrigued by the fact that they have very much the same sort of tenor in their titles and they all are leaning towards bittersweet nostalgia. I’ve just run through the list. You mentioned What You Leave Behind, but then there’s The Mourning After spelt M-O-U-R-N and then there’s This Is Not How It Ends, and When We Let Go. I wondered if you were drawn to these kind of bittersweet nostalgia themes … the minor key, as you might say, in music. Rochelle Weinstein: There’s absolutely a common thread here. I am drawn to know the woman’s journey of emotions, of loss, of grief, of acceptance, of moving through grief and acceptance and coming out mostly whole. I feel like there’s so many beautiful, evocative stories with these types of themes. Clearly, it’s what I’m drawn to. Part of it’s probably some of my history and other part is just being able to take a lot of the emotions that I see in people around me and experiences and fictionalizing them. Jenny Wheeler: What got you started in fiction? Was there a Eureka moment when you thought, I just must write a fiction book? Rochelle Weinstein: I was always a closeted writer. I was a journal writer and then, and I had this high-powered job in the music business and the company was bought by MTV and they moved everybody to New York City and I had just had my twin boys and I opted not to go to New York and they gave me a year severance. I never in my life had not been working. I worked since the day I turned 14, so I was like, ‘who am I?’ I was having a little bit of a crisis of identity, and I did have my twin boys and it was a full-time job in itself, but they would nap a couple hours a day and I was thinking, okay, what am I gonna do? A ‘Eureka’ moment in creative life And my Eureka moment was, I sat down and I was like, okay, I’m just gonna write this story. I had something in me that needed to come out. I had in my own emotional journey that I felt like I needed to fictionalize and I sat down and wrote, and 110,000 words was my first novel. Jenny Wheeler: And that was What We Leave Behind. Rochelle Weinstein: Yep. Jenny Wheeler: And tell us just a little bit about this, about that story premise. Rochelle Weinstein: What We Leave Behind is the story of Jessica Parker and she falls in love with this young boy Jonas, and she’s dealing with the loss of her father. And again, I think I said this, where I think we take a lot of our early relationships in our first family and that’s how we manage our current relationships. So he was, for her the first man that was supposed to love her first. The man who was supposed to love her first died. He left her. So that’s how she equated love, like the longing for a man. So Jonas was just not the atypical relationship, and he wasn’t giving her what she wanted. And then she finally meets the man who gives her everything that she wants, and she feels that she’s not worthy. So it’s about a woman torn between these two destinies and there’s moral, medical, and ethical dilemmas thrown in there to keep the pages going and to keep these characters all in the story. But I think it’s really a story about loving oneself enough to accept real mature love. Starting out with realistic expectations Jenny Wheeler: When you first started writing, did you have a particular goal in mind and have you reached it yet? Rochelle Weinstein: So great question. I teach classes at a local university here, adult education workshops, and when I talk to aspiring writers and authors, the first thing I say to them is, what is the goal for your writing? Because I basically say, if you don’t know your goal, you’re not going to know if you’ve reached it or not. If you want to go traditional, if you want to self-publish, and it also factors into your marketing. I knew very early on that I just wanted this tangible piece of evidence out in the world that I had written a book. I had no delusions of New York Times bestseller lists. I just wrote straight from my heart and I said, I’m going to put this book out. And don’t get me wrong, I tried to get a publishing deal and I couldn’t get an agent. I couldn’t get a publishing house, but I decided to self-publish that book, and I put it out into the world and the response was incredible. It ended up hitting the USA Today bestseller list. And I always say to my students, Manage your expectations. It’s a really difficult business and just have realistic expectations. And I feel since I had such realistic expectations, I was pleasantly surprised. It’s been a great experience for me and as far as achieving my goal, because my goal was merely just to put this book out, I’ve achieved my goal. I feel that I’ve touched readers, I hear from readers who tell me that my words changed their life. That they started to look at relationships differently. They started to look at what motivated them differently. And I feel like that is the gift of a writer. And I’ve accomplished, my goal for my writing. Publishing options in a difficult industry Jenny Wheeler: That’s beautiful. And so how did your publishing journey go after that? Do have you continued to self-publish or did you immediately then find a publisher? Rochelle Weinstein: I self-published my first two books, and then with the success of those two books, I got an agent and I got a publishing house. I’ve been publishing with an agent and a publishing house since. It was two self-published books. I have five published books with a publisher, and my eighth book is coming out next February, 2025. Jenny Wheeler: So you’re very much a hybrid author? Rochelle Weinstein: Yes. Jenny Wheeler: Would you consider self-publishing again? Rochelle Weinstein: It’s funny that question’s coming up more and more today because I’ll tell you the trends in publishing. Publishing is a difficult, challenging business and it changes daily and you’re seeing these really savvy self-published authors that are breaking out and disrupting the marketplace. There is something to be said. I don’t know that I’d be really good at self-publishing, but I would tell anybody out there that if you are savvy at social media and digital marketing and TikTok and you have a real brand, self-publishing could be a very successful way to publish today. Jenny Wheeler: Sounds to me like with the success of your first two books that you would do it. Of course it is a lot of extra work, but you would do well at it Rochelle Weinstein: Yeah. Turning to Rochelle’s wider career.. Jenny Wheeler: Turning away from the specific books to talk a little of your wider career. You have mentioned about your background in music. How was your work and life experience before you became a writer help or hinder your creative career Rochelle Weinstein: Obviously a lot of my experiences is in the music business, and people ask, ‘How much of a book is about you?’ There’s a lot of my own experiences in some of the characters or people that I’ve come across in the music business and in my career. My career influenced the writing, but also I was in marketing, advertising and promotion for every single record label in the country. So that background was also super helpful in my marketing my books, like I had a marketing background, I had an advertising, promotional background. So it was twofold, it was content that I garnered from my work and it was also, strategy. Jenny Wheeler: And we do want you to drop some names. You mention on your website that you worked with “Talented superstars.” I just wondered if you could give us a couple of little anecdotes from those years and naming a few names. Working with some of music’s big names Rochelle Weinstein: Okay, so Fergie, I, we met her, she came to our offices when, she was in a band called Wild Orchid. Jessica Simpson, when she was just first starting out, we worked with her. We worked literally with every single artist out there, even if it was just a random advertising campaign on air. But I met Dave Matthews. We met Hootie and the Blowfish. We met Collective Soul. I met all the rappers, Justin Timberlake the Backstreet Boys. In Sync. Madonna was in our offices once, but I will be honest, I did not meet her firsthand that day. It was just, this was like a lot of like early nineties music and it was a lot of rap and, alternative and pop and so it was it was definitely an amazing experience. Jenny Wheeler: If there is one thing in your creative career that you’d like to change. If you could go back in a time machine, what would it be? Rochelle Weinstein: I don’t think I would change anything. I really feel like it’s that everything in my career has happened for a reason, and it’s happened at the time that it was supposed to happen. Jenny Wheeler: Great. That’s wonderful. Look, we always like to ask people about their reading tastes too. So Rochelle, as reader, what do you like to read and what would you recommend to our listeners? What Rochelle is reading now Rochelle Weinstein: Okay. So I’m a huge reader. And let’s see. It’s funny, people ask me who’s my favorite author? I have favorite books. Let’s see. I loved A Little Life… these are my old ebook goodies. I loved A Little Life. Let me think. Lisa Barr’s new book is coming out in May. It’s called The Goddess of Warsaw. It’s fantastic. I do love Annabelle Monaghan, all of her books. Let’s see, what have I read That’s been The Stationery Shop of Tehran, I think was fabulous. I meant to create a list and I forgot to do that, but I love nothing more than getting lost in a good story. Jenny Wheeler: Women’s fiction is it? Rochelle Weinstein: I read women’s fiction. I read thrillers. I read historical fiction. I’ll tell you the Patti Callahan Henry’s book, The Secret Life of Flora Lee was fabulous. Barbara Davis, the Keeper of Happy Endings, and she also wrote the Echo of Old Books. Fabulous. There’s just so many good books out there, and I have such a robust group of author friends it would just be hard to pick. But Sam Woodruff, Allison Wynn, they’re all such talented women. And of course, Taylor Jenkins, I read all her books. She’s like an auto buy for me. A typical writing life day… Jenny Wheeler: That, lovely. Thank you. You’ve given us a great list. You mentioned your twins. Tell us a little bit about your life now and a typical writing day. Rochelle Weinstein: It’s interesting, my career in writing has run parallel with the birth of my twins, because remember I wrote that first book when they were babies, so I’ve had to adjust my writing around their schedule as they’ve aged. It’s interesting to see the evolution. I used to write three hours a day and then I was mommy. And then they would go to school for five or six hours and I would write, and then I was mommy. And then they went off to college. So now I’m an empty nester. Our twins are 24 years old, one’s in New York and one’s in Miami. And I literally wake up, I do some type of Pilates or a nice walk, and then I write all day long. Sometimes I’ll break for a quick bite to eat or stretch my legs or whatnot. And then, I can write at night, I can write on the weekends. My time is mine. My writing schedule is my own. Jenny Wheeler: Are you able to write everything you want to write? Or are there books there that just don’t fit where you are in the market now that you’d like to write someday? Rochelle Weinstein: I put a lot of careful thought into about what I’m writing. I definitely think about what’s selling in the market, but I don’t let it dictate what I’m writing. I feel in order for it to resonate on the page, it, you have to feel it inside your heart. And if I don’t feel it inside my heart, I can’t write it. So the only time I sit down to write a book is when I really feel something deeply. There’s no book that I have sitting in a drawer that I wish was out in the world. Let’s put it that way. What is next for Rochelle as author? Jenny Wheeler: So tell us, what is next for Rochelle as author, looking down the tunnel of time over the next 12 months. What have you got on your desk and what’s coming through? Rochelle Weinstein: So right now, I’m working on my first draft of Book eight. That’s due to my publisher March 1st, and then I will be editing that book from March to April and May. My summers are spent in the mountains of North Carolina, and that’s typically when I start writing my new concepts. I have a new concept that I’m already like noodling on. I will be doing that this summer and I’m hopefully going to be reading a lot more good books and interacting with readers and other authors and wonderful podcasters like yourself. It makes the job a little less lonely. Jenny Wheeler: Now, tell us about that book that you’ve got on your desk right now in the first draft. Can you tell us anything at all? Is there a working title for example? Rochelle Weinstein: The working title is called The Inn. It’s an inn in North Carolina. It’s based on a real inn, that I’ve gone to and I fell in love with. I typically go somewhere and I get a sense of space and place and I feel like I need to write a book here. And there’s this massive chef’s table in the middle of the kitchen and they have a husband and wife and they cook dinners, like gourmet dinners, seven nights a week for eight guests. And the eight guests stay for a week. So it’s like a. Big Chill meets Nine Perfect Strangers, and it’s the trials and tribulations of these eight guests at the table. And it’s really challenging for me because it is six Point Of Views, which I’ve never done before. Where to find Rochelle in person and online Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s great. You mentioned about talking with your readers. Do you do quite a bit of out there in the community presentation? Tell us about your interaction with your readers. Rochelle Weinstein: I have a newsletter where I interact with thousands of my subscribers monthly. We always have great questions and I answer every single one. They’re always thought-provoking questions and I’m always doing some great fun giveaways ’cause I love supporting other authors, so I love to send like their books. It’s not about Rochelle Weinstein promoting her books. I’m out in the community. I’m always speaking, I’m teaching classes. I do local book fairs. I speak, I go to different organizations all over the country. But I have a very special relationship with my readers, and anytime they reach out or, email me with a question about a character, I’m never too busy to respond. I think it’s really important to cultivate and nourish these relationships because without my readers I don’t have a job. Jenny Wheeler: Where can readers who aren’t able to see you in person, find you online? Rochelle Weinstein: You can find me on Instagram, Rochelle Weinstein. I’m on Facebook, I’m on Threads. Where else? My website, rochelle weinstein.com. You can sign up for my newsletter and you’ll be informed of all my goings on and where I’m speaking in the next couple of months and whatnot. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. Interestingly, when you do your writing instruction, your tuition, what do you find is the most difficult thing for young writers? A pro’s advice to starting out writers Rochelle Weinstein: I think it’s the discipline. I think everybody, I, if I had a nickel for every person who said, I have a story in me, I could retire. It’s just literally sitting down and making the time. And I quote my friend Lynn Golodner, you have to take yourself seriously as a writer and look at it as a profession and make the time to sit in the chair and write, whether it’s hand write, get on the computer. But you have to make the time to write and you also have to prepare yourself with thick skin and knowing that writing is rewriting and every first draft is horrible. Jenny Wheeler: Look. Thank you so much, Rochelle. That’s wonderful. We’ll have the. We’ve discussed in the show and it’s just been fantastic talking. Rochelle Weinstein: No, thank you. You’re wonderful, Jenny. I appreciate you having me. Jenny Wheeler: Okay. Now I think this is going to run the last week in January 30. So Rochelle Weinstein: No worries. Jenny Wheeler: yeah. Yeah. Okay, mate. Thank you so much. Rochelle Weinstein: I appreciate it. Bye-Bye. If you enjoyed Rochelle you might also enjoy… Jan Moran The Chocolatier is a dual timeline story set between post-war US and Italy with a marvelously twisted emotional plot. It really does keep you on the edge of your seat. Jan Moran is a USA Today best-selling author with a slew of 20th century standalone historicals as well as several women’s contemporary fiction series to her credit. Jan talks about how she moved from being a successful beauty care entrepreneur to full-time novelist and why she loves to write strong, independent characters who are striving to build lives that make a difference. LISTEN TO JAN MORAN ON BINGE READING On Binge Reading next time… Celebrating Valentine’s month with clean and wholesome rom coms… Next time on Binge Reading: February is Valentine’s Month. I’m sure you haven’t forgotten, and we’ve got two fun, clean, and wholesome romances to share with you in our fortnightly series. First up, an ice hockey fake dating romance from Emma St. Claire. Before Logan Barnes was hockey’s hottest, bad boy. He was Asher’s brother’s best friend, and her first crush. Now Logan is back in Harvest Hollow, but not willingly recovering from an injury and some bad press. He stuck playing for a minor league team, on reform, and Ash is the team’s social media coordinator who needs his full cooperation. It’s a fun one to escape into. That’s next time on The Joys of Binge Reading. Remember just before I go, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they love to read. See you next time and happy reading.

Welcome to The Best of Binge Reading 2023, Part Two, the second and final of our shows featuring the most listened to episodes on our popular fiction podcast, chosen solely on the basis of the number of times you, our audience, listened to them. It goes without saying they’re all best sellers, authors at the top of their game. There’s something for everyone here, nerve wrenching contemporary thrillers from Ireland, to a French love story from a well loved TV actress; a World War II spy mystery by an Australian – set in the House of Dior in Paris, and a riveting journey into the world of the famous Mitford sisters, once acclaimed as London society beauties and then reviled as rotten traitors. We present brief excerpts from each show, with links for where to find them if you’d like to hear more… As in previous years, we’ve selected shows that aired between Dec 1, 2022 and Dec 1, 2023. So here they are – excerpts from the top six shows of 2023 on The Joys of Binge Reading. Twisty Thrillers – Catherine Ryan Howard Irish thriller author Catherine Ryan Howard with her latest nerve shredding suspense Runtime. Catherine Ryan Howard – Thriller author It’s a book that was shortlisted for the Irish Book Awards Crime Fiction Book Of The Year, and is a Top 10 Kindle Best Seller. She been dubbed the Queen of High Concept thrillers for her intricate plotting which require a special excel spreadsheet… First up I asked her about her revelation that Runtime was inspired by her actor brother, John Ryan Howard. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve said that the original idea was inspired by your brother. Can you tell us about that connection?  Catherine Ryan Howard:  Yeah, he loves when I do interviews about this book because he gets a mention. So, he is an actor, and a few years ago he was in an independent Irish horror movie called Beyond the Woods.  Of course, he was telling me all about the experience of being on set and one of the things he said, and in Beyond The Woods – if you read Runtime will sound very familiar because it was filmed in this house out in the middle of nowhere in the Cork countryside, in the dead of winter overnight. They were shooting everything at night, and he said one of the first things they did is the director had to go to the local police station and say, look, if someone calls you at four in the morning to say, ‘I hear screens, I think someone’s getting murdered.’ They’re not. It’s just us filming. And of course, being a crime writer, I immediately thought, what if it’s someone getting murdered? That’s a great cover story. You’re giving yourself a bit of a bit of time to get away a head start. When I sat down to write the book, that idea went away and it turned into something else. Movie making is murder But that’s the initial seed, and I loved the idea of there being a script for horror movie that when the actors go to film it, the same things that are happening in the script start to happen on the set, because of course your first question I think would be, is this really happening or is my director secretly filming me or something? It’s hard to know what’s real and what’s not, and I think that’s at the core of the novel. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, exactly. You do open with a scene where the director and an assistant go and knock on someone’s door and say, ‘if you hear any screaming, don’t worry.’ And I immediately thought, oh, what a perfect cover for a crime. Exactly that. The story does show a very close understanding of the filming process, what happens on set, and all the different roles that there are in the production side of things. I wondered if you’d had any personal experience of that yourself. Catherine Ryan Howard: I really don’t like, first of all, my brother was a great resource, of course, and I have a couple of other friends who’d be involved in the industry. So if there was something specific I wanted to know, I would go and ask them. And then I made sure after I had written it, that I had done it right. But I actually love movies about movies, so I love For Your Consideration and I love, there’s a great movie called The TV Set, which is about trying to get a comedy made and they’re both comedies themselves and I just love all that kind of ‘insider inside the industry.’ I wouldn’t have any deep knowledge of it, but I think there’s a lot of parallels. Between being an actress and being a writer in that you’re both in this entertainment industry, in a creative industry, and I just used every little thing I had heard about. There is some stuff that literally I got from people I know, especially there’s a scene towards the beginning. Make it ‘confident but terrified’ Sure… Where Adele, the main character, goes to audition for a commercial, and my brother has done lots of commercial auditions and I was asking him, what are they like? And he said, the funniest thing is you’re often given completely contradictory instruction so that you go into audition and they say your character is confident but also terrified. Show us that. What are you supposed to do now? I just love all that. I think it’s hilarious and I used as much as I could in the book to make it seem like I had some in-depth knowledge. Yes. Jenny Wheeler: So it switches between the book that the film is based on and the film set itself, and it’s quite hard sometimes to think about hang on a sec. Are we in the book or are we in the movie? It gets very intense. WWII Heart-Turner – Carol Drinkwater Carol Drinkwater is the beloved star of the English TV show or All Creatures Great and Small, and is best known for a series of best sellers about her life on an olive farm in Provence – made into a TV show called Carol Drinkwater’s Secret Provence. Carol Drinkwater – from TV to popular fiction But Carol also writes fiction, and her latest historical romance, Act Of Love, is a heart wrenching World War II story about a French village that opened its arms as the Nazis closed in, set in mountains not far from where she lives.  Jenny Wheeler: Tell us about the story and how you came across it.  Carol Drinkwater: Well, though the story is entirely fiction, the incidents are not, and it’s part of the Alps where the book is set is in fact about an hour inland from Olive Farm, and i just happened to be there, reconnoitering around. I came upon this village and there was the tiniest museum I’ve ever seen, which no longer exists, sadly. And in there, there were one or two… not exactly photographs, but there were just references to incidents that had happened in the Second World War. And I dug a little deeper and found out that, in fact, this village, because this area was in the free zone of France — the Nazis came in and they took most of France, but they didn’t take this southern section down here. And so Jews were down here, and those who thought that they would be in danger from the Nazis came to live in this corner. And then as the Nazis started to move into the Free Zone, it became a dangerous area for anybody who was a target for them, particularly Jews. And this one small village inland of Nice, about an hour’s bus ride inland from Nice, voted a hundred percent to take in refugees. Giving refuge to outcasts of war It was a village of about 300 people, just farming people and mountain people. And within, oh, six months there was almost a thousand people there. And all the other people, of course, were foreigners. They were Lithuanian speaking, Polish speaking. They were Jews from all over Europe who were fleeing the Nazis and they were safe for almost a year in this village. I don’t want to give the details away, because that’s what the story is inspired by. It is the most remarkable story of how completely different peoples came together and created for a short while during a war, an area and an environment of peace and acceptance and diversity. And it so inspired me that I thought I must write a story. My story is basically about a Polish Jewish family, but particularly the 17-year-old daughter who is on the cusp of her life, the verge of her life. She’s about to step out, and wants to go dancing and do all the things that young girls want to do for. Fall in love, et cetera. But there she is caught up in a war zone situation. However, within this village, she finds certain areas where she’s welcome and her life begins to open up. So that’s the basis of the story. Love in all its dimensions Jenny Wheeler: And it is about love in all its dimensions, as you’ve outlined. Her most remarkable communal love, but she also does meet up and have an attraction to a young doctor in the village. But the act of love that the book refers to is not just a simple romantic love. We’re not going to give it away, but she makes quite a self-sacrificing act for the benefit of others. I wondered if you could talk about those terms of love at the heart of the book. As I say, it is a wonderful romance, but it’s much more than a romance, isn’t it? Carol Drinkwater: Well, I think the point is that yes, it is much more than a romance and an act of love is actually, yes, it is the act of love. What she sees is the risks the local people are taking to hide and look after 500 completely unknown foreigners whose lives are in danger. If they are caught, they will be murdered. And if the villagers are caught, they too will be murdered. She begins to see that actually, life is about giving. It is about opening yourself up to others and taking risks in order that we can all share the best of the world. And in the light of that, she makes a gesture, which I’m not going to say what it is. Obviously, she takes a step, which is extraordinary, absolutely extraordinary. And there were young women who made similar gestures, similar steps, not specifically Sarah’s story because I’ve made that one up, but that becomes one of the most important parts of her growing process, of her maturity into womanhood is to understand that actually opening your arms to embrace, no matter what the risks are, actually what really makes life worth living.  Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Dior Spy Thriller – Natasha Lester Natasha Lester featured in Encore, a show for guests who have already been on Binge Reading before, talking about her latest World War II saga, The Three Lives of Alix St Pierre. A story that the best-selling novelist Kate Quinn has called “a triple stranded delight.” Former American spy Alix returns to Paris in 1947, determined to build a new life for herself with a fascinating job in the House Of Christian Dior. But among the bolts of silk and cocktails at the Ritz, an old enemy lurks. Alix must reach back into her wartime past to trap her former adversary, hoping it is not too late to build a new future from under his shadow. Jenny Wheeler: We know from our last talk that you have got a longstanding passion for Dior. So tell us about that. Natasha Lester: I have. But this book was a bit of an accident in terms of how Dior was woven into the story, I have to say. I mean, I love his gowns. I think he really revolutionized fashion. He is one of the few designers who can lay claim to having changed fashion so radically. But for this one, I was really interested in what happened to women after the war. World War II gave women freedom They had amazing independence, they’d been able to earn their own money, work in any job anywhere during the wartime, because all the men were away. And then suddenly the men came back from the war and women were actively dissuaded from working and told to return to the home and return to the kitchen. And I wanted to examine what that might’ve felt like for women. And tied up in all of that is the New Look. And Dior is often scapegoated as being part of that re-domestication of women. But I think that’s oversimplifying it. I think it’s much more complicated than that. And in fact, I think that actually, his aim was to celebrate women, at a time where women were told to return to the background and he was trying to bring them back to the foreground. So in some ways, he was doing the opposite of what he’s often blamed for. For this particular story, Dior worked well because he was such a marker for what was happening with women at the time, given the themes that I was trying to explore, and it didn’t hurt that I do love his designs and his gowns as well, I guess. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. Yes. There is a very strong theme underlying it of how things changed for women after the war and just how utterly closeted they were in a sense. I don’t think I realized that in some places a woman had to get their husband’s permission before she could work. No bank account, no trousers… Natasha Lester: Yes. Oh, it was incredible to me when I was reading. I knew that there were things; like I knew women couldn’t have their own bank account, for example, at that time. And women weren’t allowed to wear trousers into public places in Paris, and they weren’t allowed to wear trousers into restaurants in Manhattan. So I knew there were some strange things like that going on. But I started reading Carmel Snow’s memoir, in fact, Carmel Snow being the famous editor of Harper’s Bazaar. And that was where I really began to see the way in which women almost had to be married in order to have some level of access to finances, because you couldn’t, as a single woman, own a credit card, get a loan, put it in a credit application to a bank. You had to bring along a man to co-sign those kinds of applications for you. So this idea that a woman required a man in her life to be able to access those parts of society almost forced women into getting married, and it’s this very strange way of imagining society. You know, particularly for me as a woman who’s always been able to have her own bank account and apply for a credit card and wear trousers wherever I please. I wanted to unpick how that might have felt, once again, to have been able to wear trousers into factories during the war because that was what your work involved. And then suddenly to have that totally taken away from you and the money that you earned to have no rights over that. That’s kind of a really tricky situation to be in and to not necessarily have the freedom to just choose to work, and to really be, I suppose, a possession in a way. I mean, that’s really how women were, and that must have felt shocking. Dark & Twisty – Liz Nugent Strange Sally Diamond is the latest dark and twisted thriller from award-winning Irish novelist, Liz Nugent. Liz Nugent – best-selling Irish thriller author In this interview, Liz talks about why she loves writing gripping psychological bestsellers that are always laced with black humor, and explains how Sally is pretty close to herself; “Liz, without a filter.” Jenny Wheeler: All of your books have intensely brilliant twists and your newest and the one we’re talking about today, Strange Sally Diamond, is no exception. The opening is really mind boggling when you read that first paragraph. And because it is so striking, I wondered if you’d just mind reading that first paragraph to us. Liz Nugent: I should have had this open before we started, but here we go. “Put me out with the bins. He said regularly. When I die, put me out with the bins. I’ll be dead, so I won’t know any different. You’ll be crying your eyes out.” And he would laugh, and I’d laugh too, because we both knew that I wouldn’t be crying my eyes out. “I never cry.” Jenny Wheeler: In those few lines, you’ve already told us that Sally is different from other people, Liz Nugent: Mm-hm…    It establishes the fact that there is something not typical about Sally’s behavior. She’s somebody who doesn’t cry and is quite confident about the fact that she doesn’t cry. The question asked in that first paragraph is, is she not crying because she doesn’t love her father? Or is she not crying? You know what, why? It just sounds off because they’re laughing together, and yet she’s not going to cry when he dies. There’s something strange about Sally. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Shock openings learned from TV Jenny Wheeler: That’s absolutely right. And all of your books that I’ve seen anyway, have exactly that same shock opening. You’ve said that you learnt this from TV shows like Breaking Bad. Tell us a bit about that. Liz Nugent: Well, I loved Breaking Bad and The Sopranos and all of those shows like Ozark, about very flawed and damaged people. I think they’re far more interesting than the Waltons or Little House in the Prairie, which are all about like lovely families who are all very nice. I just find flawed and damaged characters – in fiction I hasten to add – my husband is a very nice man, but I find those flawed characters very interesting. In most of the other books now, I’m not talking about Sally Diamond, but most of the other books, they’re told from the point of view of a sociopath or a psychopath. This is the first time I’ve departed a bit from that and written from the point of view of somebody who’s actually very good and straightforward, almost too straightforward because of her difference. I really enjoyed writing her. It was quite a relief because I had always lent towards writing these monstrous characters before. But writing Sally was a great relief to me. I really loved her by the end of it. Inside sociopaths’ and psychopaths’ heads Jenny Wheeler: How do you get inside the heads of these monsters? Liz Nugent:  Well, alarmingly easily. I did some acting training. I trained as an actress many, many years ago, and I think that really helped me to get inside the mind of a character. So when it’s a character that I’m writing myself, I think like they do, and so the kind of sociopathic characters that I’m dealing with, it’s not like they wake up in the morning thinking ‘Whose life am I gonna screw up today?’ It’s always that they have some rationale behind it. “She shouldn’t have provoked me” or “he brought it on himself.” Or “if he hadn’t done that, I wouldn’t have had to do that.” There’s always some rationale behind the way that they’re thinking, so that they have a kind of a superiority complex and they have a logic behind their actions. Even though it’s really askew, there is a logic to what they do, and a lot of it stems from background trauma. And that is also the case with Sally, but because she doesn’t remember any of it, all of this happened, all of the trauma that happened to Sally happened before she was seven years old and for various reasons, which are revealed in the book, she doesn’t remember any of it. She has no idea when we meet her, around the age of 42, I think she has no idea what her background really is. Silver Rush Mysteries – Ann Parker Ann Parker is the award-winning author of the Silver Rush mystery series set in 19th century Colorado. And yes, that is Silver Rush as distinct from the possibly more well known Gold Rush. Ann Parker – Silver Rush mysteries Ann talks about how a close family relationship led to her writing the Colorado series, and why being a science writer has been a big advantage in her career. The series was initially set in Leadville, Colorado, but the latest book, The Secret In The Wall, is set in San Francisco. Jenny Wheeler: I understand you’ve got a family connection with the Leadville. Tell us about that. Ann Parker: I have a lot of family history in Colorado in general. My parents were raised there, and I still have cousin and a brother who’s there. But it was my paternal grandmother who was raised in Leadville in the late 19th century. And this was a bit of family history I didn’t know until I was, oh gosh, into my forties and heading toward 50. And as a family genealogist, I was shocked because truly all she ever talked about was Denver, Colorado and how wonderful it was and how she met grandpa and stuff. When my uncle told me that my grandmother was raised in Leadville, I was like, what? What’s Leadville? I’ve never heard of this place. And my uncle got very excited and said, ‘Oh my gosh. It was just the biggest mining area, in the country at the time, with silver mining.’ People came from all over. It was like the Gold Rush in California. He says, oh Ann, I know you’ve been thinking about writing some fiction. You need to research Leadville and set a novel there. I just followed my uncle’s directions and it’s been quite a journey. I gotta say. Mining silver two miles high Jenny Wheeler: Was it a bigger area than the Nevada area in its time? Ann Parker: In its time it was, People came from all over the world to Leadville and many of them didn’t realize it’s up at 10,000 feet in the Rocky Mountains, so it’s like almost, like two miles. And, there was no infrastructure at first and no railroads. People would get up there and spend their last pocket money and be stuck in a place where winter lasts nine months out of the year. There were some harrowing stories from up there in that time. Yes, it was quite interesting. Jenny Wheeler:  Your lady sleuth is Inez Stannert. She has been on quite a journey herself, because she started out on the East coast and she ended up in Leadville. In book one she makes that transition. Tell us a bit about Inez and where she came from. Ann Parker:  Okay. first of all, I’ll just say this right out. Inez Stannert is my granny’s maiden name. Now Granny was a very proper woman but I just loved her name. I thought it had such a strong ring to it and I wanted to honor her in some way. I asked the family, the ones that were left, she was long gone, ‘Do you think Granny would be okay if I took her name and gave it to this, rough, strong minded, strong willed woman who runs a saloon?’ They said, ‘oh, she’d love it. she’d just be tickled. She’d think it was great. that’s how the name came about.’ Jenny Wheeler: Tell us about The Secret In The Wall? The body that was forgotten Ann Parker: I’m always on the lookout for ideas, plot ideas that show up in either historical documents or newspapers. And this body in the wall thing was born from a real incident in San Francisco. where they were digging in the basement or sub-basement of a San Francisco house, and unearthed a coffin containing a perfectly preserved body and they had no idea who this was. How did they end up down here? It turns out that the house was sitting on top of what used to be an old cemetery in San Francisco. All the bodies had theoretically been moved but they missed a few, including this one. I read that article back in 2016, I think, and it just sat in the back of my mind. I was thinking, that is so cool. And then, when it came time to write this book, it’s like the body just moved into the wall and it was like, whoa, let’s see what happens from here. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Mitford Madness – Marie Benedict And in the final excerpt from this year’s Best Of 2023 episodes, biographical fiction author Marie Benedict talks about her latest best seller, The Mitford Affair, the story of the beautiful and notorious Mitford sisters, famous as the debutante daughters of an English Peer and then infamous as World War II traitors. Marie Benedict -biographical fiction that comes alive Critics rave about Marie’s uncanny ability to unearth untold woman’s stories – from Albert Einstein’s first wife to the hidden life of Agatha Christie – from JP Morgan’s personal librarian- to Andrew Carnegie’s maid, she’s written about them all. I asked her what attracted her to the famous Mitfords? Jenny Wheeler: With The Mitford Affair, which has been described as Downtown Abbey Meets The Crown – you’ve got six extraordinary sisters who enthralled England and much of the world, They looked, in the mid 1930s, like they were totally destined to marry lords and have a rich and an aristocratic life. And because of the way things turned out politically with the war, it didn’t happen like that at all. Now you excavate the rivalries between the sisters very well. Was that part of what drew you to the story, the way they all six worked together or against each other? Marie Benedict: Yes, it was fascinating to me. I am the oldest of six – four sisters and two brothers, and my family is not like theirs. Nobody’s is like the Mitfords. But at the same time, I have seen first-hand the way in which sibling relationships dictate our personalities, our belief systems, the decisions we make, and sometimes it’s unconscious. And when I got to know the Mitford story, they weren’t super well known to me, until I did some research for another book I wrote about the Churchills. I wrote a book about Winston Churchill’s wife and the Mitfords, who were related to the Churchills – kept on coming up. And that was when I learned more and more about the role these women played first as social luminaries who defied everybody’s expectations that they’d marry well, right? (Except for one sister.) Sisters on dramatically different paths And then these darker pieces of their past and that story overlaid with this sibling relationship and the way in which these sisters each followed dramatically different political paths at a time period of great unrest and great polarization. It was just fascinating to me to see how those things evolved. Particularly when you look at our own society and the way in which we have so much polarization today. I’m always interested in the way in which the past reverberates into the present, and I couldn’t resist their story, Jenny Wheeler: Their mother Lady Redesdale apparently once said, “whenever I see the words ‘peer’s daughter’ in a headline, I know it’s going to be something about one of my girls.” Marie Benedict: Yes, exactly. Jenny Wheeler: And she wasn’t exaggerating, was she? Marie Benedict: No, she wasn’t. I mean, they were regularly in the newspaper. Now, admittedly in the earlier years it was more society reports. You know, the girls were all debutantes. They were always at the best balls and, their outfits and the people they danced with, all those things, that was another interesting part of the world. And yet, as the years went on, what they were most known for was the scandals in which they became embroiled. Beginning with Diana, the, third oldest who had been, oh my gosh, she’s the one who started out marrying well, right? What was Sir Oswald Mosley’s secret? She married the heir to the Guinness Beer fortune, she had this fabulous life with her adoring husband and her two young children, and she left it all for a married Sir Oswald Mosley, who was the leader of the fascist Unit in Great Britain. And it was just unfathomable to people. Jenny Wheeler: Mosley, I could not really understand the attraction for him. And when I Googled around a bit about him, I found that he was an absolute philander who had right at the beginning made it clear that he wasn’t going to leave his wife She understood right from the beginning that wasn’t going to happen. Did you ever really get a sense of why he was so utterly tempting? Marie Benedict: You know, it’s such a great question. and you and I are not the only two to, muse on that. Sometimes when I give speeches, I like to show pictures. Her first husband was stunning and smart and kind and adored her. And then you’ve got this other guy who’s a cad and he’s married and he’s sleeping with his sisters-in-law. And he’s just awful in every sense of the word. And I don’t know that we’ll ever really know why, but I think my personal pop psychology view, having spent way too much time with Diana, is that it was the thrill of the chase. You know, Mosley was never, ever, hers. Not even when they married, not even in later years. I don’t want to give too much away, but when they were social pariahs, when they had children together, he was a challenge and Diana was very smart. She lived in an era where careers weren’t something that women, at least women of her stature generally did. And I think she was horribly bored by all that adulation and easy life that Brian Guinness offered. Mosley was a challenge, and she went after him with her heart and her mind. She became fully enamored of his belief system, she was an apolitical creature prior to being with him. She adopted his views as her views, and I think everything she did was in service of keeping Mosley close. That’s my personal view. I think he never really was hers and that was a great challenge for her. Next time on Binge Reading Introducing a month of romance for Valentines Day:  Remember we’re fortnightly now, so the next show will run January 31, with Rochelle Weinstein’ s What You Do To Me – a trip back down memory lane with a background of nostalgic hit songs and a terrific Spotify playlist to accompany it… Journalist Cecilia James is a sucker for a love song. So when she stumbles across a clue to the identity of the muse for one of rock’s greatest, she devotes herself to uncovering the truth, even as her own relationship is falling apart. That’s next time on The Joys of Binge Reading. If you’ve enjoyed this round up, follow up by listening to these and other episodes in full.  There are no nearly 300 interviews with a wide range of popular fiction authors with something to suit every reader. And if you’ve like what you hear, leave us a review so others will find us – and great books they’d love to read – too.  Word of mouth is still the best form of recommendation. That’s it for today.  See you next time, and Happy Reading!

Welcome to The Best of Binge Reading 2023, Part One, the first of two shows featuring the most listened to episodes on our popular fiction podcast, chosen solely on the basis of the number of times you, our audience, listened to them. They include an intriguing range of genres, from a contemporary thriller, to a French story in equal parts about food and love, a World War II spy mystery, a NZ historical family saga pre-dating European settlement, and two romances, one a fresh and funny romcom, the other a tender second chance tale of loss, regret, and the influence family has on life changing decisions….. And like our audience, our authors reflect our international reach, with two Australians, a Kiwi, one French American, and one each from New York and Massachusetts. We present brief excerpts from each show, with links for where to find them if you’d like to hear more… As in previous years, we’ve selected shows that aired between Dec 1, 2022 and Dec 1, 2023. The second part of The Best Of The Joys of Binge Reading will air on January 16. Kelly Rimmer: Spies – Lies – Betrayal But now, here’s the first of this week’s guest authors, Kelly Rimmer.  Her sweeping World War II suspense has sold more than 2 million copies worldwide and made international best seller lists, including the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and USA Today. Her latest book, The Paris Agent, a fascinating dual timeline mystery with multiple romance lines moving from England and World War Two to the 1970s with the daughter of one of those people that was involved in the war. It’s a powerful story of two otherwise ordinary women who become spies dropped into Nazi occupied France. I asked Kelly to tell us of the story’s genesis. Kelly Rimmer – Best-selling World War II fiction Kelly Rimmer: My daughter’s name is Violette. It’s a family name from my husband’s side. And when I was pregnant with her, and we were talking about names, you do the Googling thing, trying to think about famous people with this name. Or what the meaning of the name is. And I stumbled upon Violette Szabo, who was an SOE agent, in the F section of the SOE. Her story was so inspiring and had stuck with me. I loved the idea that we were naming my daughter after someone so incredible. And I had always intended, always hoped that I would come up with the right premise to write a book that was inspired by her. And, maybe two or three years ago, I heard a podcast about Diana Rowden, who is another SOE agent, who I had never heard of, even though I’d done a little bit of reading about the SOE. And I’ve also found her to be just such an incredible woman. The idea for this book came out of their stories, their real-life stories. It’s fiction. I’ve taken a few liberties here and there with their stories. And they weren’t actually close friends, but in my book, my characters inspired by them are friends. But for the most part, where I could, I followed the real history. Traitors operating within the SOE Jenny Wheeler: Part of its foundation is the understanding that’s emerged since the war that the Special Operations Executive, the branch of the British Secret Service that handled all of the dispensing of agents over France. The ones that were so tremendously brave as to jump out of planes into enemy territory and work to support the Resistance… Some of those people were betrayed from within the SOE even before they set foot on French soil. Kelly Rimmer: There’s plenty of scenarios where agents landed and were met by Nazi troops on the ground as they were landing. In hindsight, it’s very clear that there were people in the SOE who were betraying information through to the Nazis, but at the time they were operating blind in so many ways. As soon as I came across that idea and this, gentleman named Henri Dericourt, who was thought to have potentially been quite senior in the SOE, and was very good friends with his second in command, best friends/ He was eventually tried for being a double agent, but was acquitted most likely because his friend Nicolas Bodington, perjured himself to get his friend off. As soon as I came across that story, I thought it would be really interesting to write about these agents who have the best of intentions. Who have taken to their training with every, ounce of energy and, and dedication that they have and who go off hoping that they can do something to turn the tide of the war. But they’re really fighting an uphill battle because there are people within the SOE who are working against them. Kelly Rimmer on Binge Reading www.thejoysofbingereading.com/kelly-rimmer-wwii-dual-timeline/ Kelly Rimmer’s website: Kellyrimmer.com Fiona Lowe: When friends betray Best selling fellow Australian author Fiona Lowe’s latest contemporary thriller, The Money Club, centers on the scenario of small town scammed by one of their own in a Ponzi scheme. Fiona unpicks the moral quagmire of those who trade on the bonds of their closest friendships and families for money. The story is based in a rural town outside of Melbourne, and it’s partly based on true events.  Fiona explains. Fiona Lowe – contemporary thriller author on The Joys of Binge Reading Fiona Lowe: There’s a couple of things. My claim to fame, I’m not sure it’s a great one, is that I live in a regional city that has been subject to two of Australia’s worst Ponzi schemes. In fact, we actually had, at one point, standing in our kitchen drinking our wine… We had one of the perpetrators of one of these schemes We did not invest, but the fact that he was standing in our kitchen came about because of small towns, and the networks. You are never too many handshakes away from anybody. When this scheme went down and $89 million dollars went missing, a lot of people in my town were affected and I observed the fallout from that. I hadn’t actually intended to write a book about it. It was just like, isn’t this awful? It was just sitting there in the back burner. And then another decade went by and the town got hit by another Ponzi scheme. And I remember listening to an ABC (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) podcast about a couple of blokes down in East Gippsland who had invested and lost money and they were trying to get their money back. Families who lost everything to a ‘friend’ They believed that there was a middle man involved and they were trying to sort that out. I remembered these families and these workplaces because Ponzi schemes and networks – entire extended families go down. Entire sporting communities, sections of a factory. They all invest because they all trust each other. And I started to think if you lose everything, normally you can turn to someone in the family and they can help you out. But if your entire extended family has lost everything, where does that leave you? And I thought, I need to write a book about this. Jenny Wheeler: Early on there is the question raised of ‘were they gullible or were they greedy?’ And I guess sometimes this might surface in the press as well with the comment they shouldn’t have been so gullible.’ How did you tackle that aspect of it? Fiona Lowe: That was the big theme of the book, what is need and what is greed? And that was my constant question that I was asking as I was writing the book. Is it greedy to want to own your own home? Is it greedy to want to educate your children? Is it greedy to want to own a Lamborghini and for other cars? And who makes a decision about what is need and what is greed and where’s the line drawn? So that’s constantly being tossed aroundThe other thing about Ponzi schemes and with The Money Club is that this wasn’t a stranger that was suggesting that they invest. This was a friend, someone they trusted, a man whose father was a financial advisor. They came with gravitas. And trust is such a huge thing, if we trust people, we will take that step. Fiona Lowe on The Joys of Binge Reading www.thejoysofbingereading.com/fiona-lowe-contemporary-fiction/ Website:  Fionalowe.com Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Amy Poeppel: Fresh and funny romcoms  Fresh and funny romcom author Amy Poeppel’s latest literary romp, The Sweet Spot is a tale of spurned love, revenge, and the healing power of friendship. Here’s part of our conversation about the book, Amy’s fourth novel. Amy Poeppel: author of fresh and funny romcoms Jenny Wheeler: The Washington Post said of The Sweet Spot; “She puts more planes in the air than an ambitious air traffic controller, and gracefully lands each one.” You describe it as “a love letter to family friendships and Greenwich Village.” Tell us something about this fourth novel. Amy Poeppel: I wanted to write a book that took place in Greenwich Village because that’s where I live. That is my neighborhood. It’s beautiful. I happen to live in faculty housing at one of the biggest universities here, which is NYU. I live in this large, very strange faculty dorm almost, which is I think a novel in and of itself at some point. I think that should be the next novel that I write. But I walk around this neighborhood all the time and you see faces over and over again, even though this is a big city, but Greenwich Village feels like a village. We have these beautiful brownstones. I’m always walking around Washington Square Park and looking up at these beautiful, iconic brownstones, and I just wondered “what goes on in there?” I got this idea that I wanted there to be three women, all in the area, who don’t know each other, but at the start of the book, have pretty quickly every reason to hate each other. They end up overcoming that and not only becoming friends, but they bond over this little baby that really has nothing to do with any of them, but he becomes their problem. Funny stories with ‘interesting driven women’ Jenny Wheeler: You say you like to write funny stories in which “interesting driven women figure out who they are and what they want, fix their mistakes and build a life on their own terms and even find love.” Now, that sounds like a lifelong project! Amy Poeppel: I also, speaking of my wonderful women friends, my age, I’m just forever impressed at how well women manage the chapters of their lives. We go through so many different iterations of ourselves and we reinvent ourselves so beautifully, I think. So I really did want to pay tribute to that and those three women, the three main characters in the book. But Evelyn also, and she’s our sort of outsider, but slightly older character, not much older, but I wanted each of those women to find a way to reinvent themselves and come out in a better place than they started. Jenny Wheeler: You bring in that idea of The Sweet Spot very nicely in the book, because there is a bar called The Sweet Spot, which has a fairly central part to play as well. And each one of the characters in a different way and in a different part of the book seems to recognize for themselves, oh, this is a sweet spot for me, or this is my sweet spot. It’s nicely threaded into the book. The Sweet Spot is a neighborhood bar Amy Poeppel: Yes, and coming up with the idea for the bar was so much fun because I wanted this family to get to the privilege of living in this brownstone, but I didn’t want to make life too easy for them. So first I filled it with things that weren’t their own things that they were going to have to live with, and set up a situation where they couldn’t just clear out the house. Then I thought, well, let’s also not have it be one of these absolutely beautifully renovated brownstones. Let’s give them an unrenovated brownstone with the big air conditioning units in the windows and really terrible appliances, and a kitchen that needs to be gutted and redone. And I thought, that’s good. They’re pretty uncomfortable now. And then I thought, what if I could make them a little bit more uncomfortable? I was walking around my neighborhood and I thought, ‘Let’s put a bar in the basement’ because that’s happens here all the time. You might have a dry cleaner in the basement or a bakery and I thought, no, let’s have a bar in the basement, because that would create a little extra mayhem. Amy Poeppel on The Joys of Binge Reading www.thejoysofbingereading.com/amy-poeppel-fresh-funny-romcoms/ Amy Poeppel Website: Amypoeppel.com Juliette Fay: Second chance love Juliette Fay is the award-winning, best-selling author of tender novels that raise questions of loss, regret, second chances, and the influence families play in life-changing decisions. Juliette talks about her latest novel, The Half Of It, described by the critics as “an immensely satisfying page turner, perfect for fans of Josie Silver and Jojo Moyes.” Juliette Fay – second chance love story Jenny Wheeler: I wondered right at the beginning, how would you define it in terms of genre fiction? Is it a romance, is it a second coming of age story? How would you classify it? Juliette Fay: I would classify it as contemporary fiction. It’s not really a classical romance story in that there’s a lot more going on. It’s really about the entire life of the main character Helen Spencer, who’s 58 years old, and it’s about her relationships with her friends and her children. There is a romance at the center of it, or a potential romance. But I like that phrase, second coming of age. I think that she’s at a point in her life where she really needs to make a course correction and that’s the crux of it. There aren’t very many books with main characters in their fifties and sixties. It’s very few. I mean, you have to really dig. It seems that there’s books of characters in their seventies, eighties, and nineties, and then twenties, thirties and forties. I Feel like everybody is in their thirties in most of the books. But your fifties and sixties are such a fascinating time because as you say, you get a second chance to think things through. Writing her way to a ‘happy brain’ Jenny Wheeler: You’ve got a piece online that you wrote for Psychology Today about writing your way to a happy brain. It was a lovely piece, but it indicates that you might have gone through a similar kind of revision of your life, but at an earlier age. Would you mind talking about that? Juliette Fay: Yes. Right. It’s no big secret. I had my fourth child and I had quit my job. I was working part-time, so I was home with the kids and I was actually quite unhappy. I love my children. I love being with them. But I really felt like I was not using my brain. I used to joke that I was a wiper of spills, a wiper of bottoms, a wiper of noses, like I was a professional wiper. And I felt very constrained by the fact that I didn’t have anything that was mine. And I tried a bunch of different things, like I knew and my husband knew that I was not happy and I needed to find something. And so I started writing and I describe it it’s a little bit like falling in love. Like I couldn’t wait to get back to my characters. I couldn’t wait. I was about 40. And it was, I would say, a little midlife crisis of, okay, this is great. I’m very grateful that I have all these little, crazy people running around and my wonderful husband, but it’s still not enough. I still need something else. And I was able to feed that need with writing. And it’s been a wonderful thing for the last, 20 years. Juliette Fay on The Joys of Binge Reading www.thejoysofbingereading.com/juliette-fay-tender-touching-stories/ Juliette Fay’s website: Juliettefay.com Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Monty Soutar: For Such A Time As This Monty Soutar is a respected New Zealand historian who took a big step and turned his life upside down to write a game changing novel. a story of nation building through the eyes of its original people Kāwai – For Such A Time As This, is the first instalment in what is to be a three book family saga, which went straight to the top of the bestseller lists in New Zealand and stayed there for 22 weeks. it’s in the tradition of Alex Haley’s Roots, introducing readers to pre-European Maori life in much the same way as Alex Haley’s tale of tracing his roots back to Africa captivated an international audience. Monty’s story of how he came to write it is like a ‘road to Damascus’ encounter. He explains: Monty Soutar – a story of nation building through the eyes of the original people Monty Soutar: In 2019, I finished my most recent non-fiction book, which was Nga Tamatoa, A History of Maori participation in the First World War. It’s a huge book. It took me about five years to research and write, so I was pretty almost burned out after that and decided to go on holiday with my wife. And because I’d put so much time into that I felt there was an opportunity to just to sit back and have a blow, really. We were heading to Greece for three months to spend time with our friends. But before I left, I had an inkling that there’s something I’m supposed to do next, and it’s not non-fiction. The audience I was really interested in was young people. I felt that fiction was the way to reach them, but I just didn’t quite know what I was going to write. I was half asleep and I heard this voice. I didn’t actually hear it, but this impression in my mind just said, ‘Get Roots.’ It was clear. I woke up about an hour and a half later and I said to my wife, ‘Hey, we’ve got to get this book, Roots.’ Roots TV series was well known to me from the 1970s. I said, well, the book’s so old, you probably have to go to second hand bookshop or a rare bookshop. A serendipitous encounter We’re driving back to Gisborne and we get to this little place called Paeroa, which is a little town between Auckland and Gisborne, on a Sunday when you wouldn’t expect anything to be open. I was asleep and my wife was driving and she nudged me and she said, ‘Hey, look. There’s a Red Cross book sale on the side of the road,’ and I looked up and sure enough, and there were these boxes of books there that were being sold and on a Sunday. We stopped and we said, ‘well, let’s have a look. Who knows, that book Roots might be here?’ They had them in alphabetical order in the boxes A- Z and I walked straight to the box that had the Rs, the books with Rs, and they’re all spine down. In this particular box there was one book sitting on top of all the others with the cover down. The book was sitting there like it was waiting for somebody, and I turned it over and it was the Roots book by Alex Haley. I looked at my wife, she looked at me, and we knew then that whatever I had heard, whatever this impression voice was, it meant something that I was supposed to do. I took the book to Greece and I read it. I came to the understanding in my mind that I’m supposed to write a novel like this I felt that I was to write a saga like that, which followed a number of generations of a Maori family in order to tell the history of this country in a way that it’s never been told before. After a seven day fast and a retreat, I started to hear this impression again in my head. And I wrote down what I was being told. And there were three big things that I believed I had to do once I got back to New Zealand. Clearly instructed to do three things One was to leave my job. I worked for the government as a historian. Two was I had to sell my house – or our house, my wife and I. I understood that was to give me some income to be able to write the series that I’ve started on. The third one was to write the series. So leave work, sell a book (should be sell our house), write the series. If I hadn’t seen the Roots book there, sitting on that box, I might’ve had some doubts, but I believed that there was some sort of divine guidance that was leading me into doing this, that I was ready to do it, no questions asked, but I had to ask my wife, of course, because it was going to have an impact on her. And I can say that she wasn’t keen, immediately, but through some things that happened I think she realized this is something that has to be done and, I’m meant to do it. We came back to New Zealand and I followed that plan and that’s how I got to into writing the Kawai series. Jenny Wheeler: And it has sold very well, hasn’t it Monty Soutar: Well, it went straight to number one, New Zealand fiction in the week it was launched and it stayed there for 22 weeks at number one. I heard that’s some sort of a record. And I really can’t explain why people, well, such a diverse group in the population, are reading it, because it’s not one group of people. It’s a wide range. I mean, the greatest thrill I get is people who come to me and say, ‘Look, I’ve never read a book since I left secondary school, but this book has encouraged me to read’ and I think that has to be put down that people do actually want to know something about the history of this country. Monty Soutar on The Joys of Binge Reading www.thejoysofbingereading.com/monty-soutar-for-such-a-time-as-this/ Monty Soutar on line: Facebook: @montysoutarauthor Samantha Vérant: Food For Love French American author Samantha Vérant delivers perfectly seasoned fiction that combines her passions in life – France, food and love. And her latest book, The Spice Master at Bistro Exotique, set in Paris, is a romantic and culinary delight. I first asked Samantha about The Spice Master at Bistro Exotique, Jenny Wheeler: It’s a fantastic story of a French American chef in Paris, setting up a new restaurant, but all of your books show passion for two things, France and food, and I wondered which came first? Samantha Vérant: writing about her passions in life – France, food and love Samantha Vérant: Well, honestly, food came first. When I was nine years old, I was ripping out recipes from Bon Appetite and Gourmet Magazine. And I think my pièce de résistance came when I was eleven and I made a 20 pound Sundae Pie with chocolate leaves for decoration. I molded them from actual leaves. It’s a big joke in my family because my father was like, ‘this pie weighs so much,’ but I’ve always been drawn to the kitchen and cooking. And then when I moved to France! Hello French recipes! Jenny Wheeler: Yes. You provided a generous number of recipes for readers in all of these books and in Bistro Exotique. it’s a fantastic looking ice cream recipe, Charles’s Coconut Ice Cream. Do you get a lot of good feedback from people? Do they make some of your suggestions? Readers love the recipes Samantha Vérant : Oh yeah, they do. And I think it’s an added bonus to have recipes in the book, especially since I’m describing the food. And what if somebody who’s ‘oh my God, that sounds so great,’ and they want to make it? And so before writing out the recipes, of course, I test them a lot and I have my two French critics here, or three actually, my French family. They eat really well when I’m testing. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Yes. You mentioned your French family. Rather provocatively on your website, you say that you quotes “married a sexy French rocket scientists that you met in 1989 brackets, (but ignored for 20 years.)” Now you can’t leave a teaser like that without giving us a little bit of background story there. Samantha Vérant: I met my French husband (Jean Luc) at a cafe in Paris in 1989. I was 19, he was 26, and I was with my best friend Tracy, who is also – it’s in the memoir. This story’s in Seven Letters From Paris. He wrote me, after our brief rendezvous, he wrote me seven love letters, and I didn’t write him back until 20 years later. I’m now married to him. Our 13th wedding anniversary is May 7th. Jenny Wheeler: When you went to France and started eating French food, was there a particular meal or dish which still resonates for you today? Wild Boar was hard to swallow Samantha Vérant: I think all of them, but the one that resonates with me the most was my first Christmas in France. it was Civet de Sanglier, which is wild boar. And my brother-in-law was like, ‘I shot it myself,’ and I looked at the sauce and I nudged Jean Luc with my elbow. I said, ‘What is the sauce?’ And he’s like, ‘It’s wonderful. It’s blood sauce.’” And I went, ‘Oh, I don’t think I can eat this.’ I took a bite. It wasn’t for me, but since then it was ‘feet into the fire’ with some French meals. But that’s the most memorable one. And I actually do like it after having it a second and third time. Clearly, I’m not a vegetarian! Samantha Vérant on The Joys of Binge Reading www.thejoysofbingereading.com/samantha-verant-food-for-love/ Samantha Vérant’s website:  http://www.samanthaverant.com/ The ice cream recipe from The Spice Master at Bistro Exotique: Charles’s Coconut Ice Cream Recipes Link http://www.samanthaverant.com/2022/12/happy-holidays-and-easy-recipe-from.html Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Jenny Wheeler: That’s it for today… A taster of six of the twelve most popular shows we aired on The Joys of Binge Reading in 2023, according to the number of times you listened to them. If you like what you’ve heard follow up on the links and listen to the full episode.  And leave us a review so others will find us too. The second part of the Best of The Joys of Binge Reading will air in two weeks, on January 16.  That’s it for now.  See you next time and Happy Reading

Lucy Burdette’s Key West cozies feature a magazine food critic called Hayley Snow, her husband’s nosy dog, Ziggy, and an indomitable sidekick, Miss Gloria, who’s rapidly becoming a reader’s favorite, all that set in page-turning beautiful action in Florida’s laid back tropical archipelago. Hi. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And today on Binge Reading, Lucy talks about the joy of combining two of her loves in life, food and Key West, in an award-winning best-selling small town mystery series. Mystery, Thriller and Suspense Giveaway Our Giveaway this week as a selection from a group of authors, Mystery, Thriller, and Suspense Giveaway, including Sadie’s Vow, Book #1  in my own Home At Last trilogy. It’s San Francisco, 1872. Sadie McGillicuddy’s word is her bond. Swearing to her dying mother to always protect her wilful sister, she’s soon tested when her beautiful younger sibling runs off into the night. You’ll find a link to download these books in the show notes for this episode on the website, the joys of binge reading.com. That’s a Free Download Give away for holiday reading. DOWNLOAD FREE MYSTERIES And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best form of recommendation and it will help people find a show that recommends books they’d love to discover and read. Links to items mentioned in the show The Bobbsey Twins, Laura Lee Hope:  https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/DMJ/the-bobbsey-twins/ Nancy Drew. Carolyn Keene: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/NAD/nancy-drew/ Frank Bruni, Born Round: https://www.amazon.com/Born-Round-Family-Ferocious-Appetite/dp/014311767X# Ruth Reichl:  http://ruthreichl.com/about/ Dr Laurie Santos: Yale class on happiness:  https://www.drlauriesantos.com/science-well-being Dr Laurie Santos: Happiness Lab podcast: https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/the-happiness-lab-with-dr-laurie-santos Ann Cleeves:  https://www.anncleeves.com/ Rhys Bowen, Lady Georgiana Royal Spyness series: The Proof in the Pudding, www.rhysbowen.com Love Marriage by Monica Ali, https://www.amazon.com.au/Love-Marriage-Monica-Ali/dp/1982181478 Ragnar Jonasson, Reykjavík, https://www.amazon.com/Reykjav%C3%ADk-Crime-Story-Ragnar-J%C3%B3nasson/dp/1250907330# Where To Find Lucy Burdette Online Website: https://lucyburdette.com/ Facebook: @Lucyburdetteauthor Instagram: @Lucyburdette Jungle Red Writers Blog: https://www.jungleredwriters.com/ Introducing mystery author Lucy Burdette Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Lucy. Hello there, Lucy, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Lucy Burdette – Her latest book in the Key West food critic series made the USA Today bestseller list Lucy Burdette: I am so happy to be here and I really appreciate being invited. Jenny Wheeler: It’s lovely. the wonders of technology to think that you are in Key West, Florida and I’m in New Zealand. It’s great, isn’t it? Lucy Burdette: Crazy, Yes. Two islands. Jenny Wheeler: That’s right. Lucy, you’ve got a flourishing career writing these Key West food critic mysteries. You’ve just published number 13 in those. How did you get started on fiction writing? Lucy Burdette: It’s a strange story, but your listeners might not know that I’m a clinical psychologist. That was my career before writing and when I met my now husband of 31 years, he was a big golfer and I was not, but I wanted to do whatever it took to spend time with him. So I started taking golf lessons, and I was just horrible, terrible. I made every mistake. It was embarrassing. I started thinking about what could I write that would combine psychology and learning golf. I began to pitch some non-fiction stories about the psychology of golf. I had a few published, but it’s very hard as a freelancer to get picked up by magazines. Why don’t you try writing a mystery? I was talking to a good friend from graduate school about this and she said why don’t you try writing a mystery? Because we’ve always read mysteries since The Bobbsey Twins and Nancy Drew and passed them back and forth. I said, that sounds like an interesting idea. I knew nothing about how to write a novel, but I could immediately picture this first protagonist, who was a neurotic lady golfer who desperately wanted to play on the Professional Ladies Golf Tour, but she had too many issues that would keep her from doing that. That was the first thing I tried, and I found an agent after about a year and I was taking classes and I found a writer’s group. My agent was able to sell that series not too long after that. The trouble with the Golf Lovers Mystery series, as they were called, is that readers tend to hate golf and golfers tend not to have time to read. So, it wasn’t a perfect intersection. There were five books in that series, and then I tried writing one that was set in Connecticut that had to do with a lady psychologist. There were three of those. And then finally, I heard about this editor who was looking for a food critic mystery, preferably in a tropical setting. We had just started traveling a lot to Key West and thinking about moving here at least half time. I pitched the idea of this series set in Key West and she took it and said, would you consider changing your name because the other eight books were published under my real name, which is Roberta Isleib. I said, sure. I chose my grandmother’s name. She was Lucille Burdette. And that’s how it got started. It was a crazy midlife crisis. Learning what a food critic likes and does Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting. You must have already had the feeling you wanted to write something. If that happened to me, I’d probably just give up golf. Lucy Burdette: I’m a very stubborn person, it turns out, and also a slow learner. You talk to writers and some of them have this feeling that they always wanted to be a writer. That was not me. I’ve always read like mad and love reading, especially series books because I like to start with a character and follow along ways with her. But no, I never thought about writing fiction. I have a PhD in clinical psychology, so I know how to write that sort of thing, but this was all new. Jenny Wheeler: And the Key West Series does really require somebody who has a genuine passion and interest in food. Was that you at the beginning? Lucy Burdette: I have always loved to eat. That’s my main claim to fame. And I was a decent cook. But I have to say that following these characters, the main characters, Hayley Snow, who’s the food critic, and her mother, who now lives in town and is a caterer, following them I have had to expand my horizons and try new things, because as you’ve seen, there are recipes in the back of the book. I have to make what I am imagining they might make. And then the other part of the research is that we have to go out to eat a lot, which is not too onerous. I try to make some things that I really love from the restaurants that we’ve been to. I’m passionate about eating and I will cook if need be. Jenny Wheeler: And with a food critic character, you have to stay on top of food trends, don’t you? Because restaurants are always wanting to be a little bit ahead of the latest trend. Key West offers a colorful community Lucy Burdette: Yes, at Key West, probably not so much as you might find in a place like New York City, but yes, I read a lot about food critics. There’s a wonderful book by Frank Bruni, who was the food critic for the New York Times called Born Round. It was a memoir of his life and his experience as the food critic. So I read things like that. Ruth Reichl, who was also the food critic at the time, She’s written a series of wonderful memoirs and novels. All that helped me get into the head of what my character might be noticing and thinking about writing. Jenny Wheeler: Key West itself is practically a character in the series. There’s very strong sense of location, so I guess it’s not surprising that you’ve really integrated yourself into that community as one of its citizens. Lucy Burdette: Yes, we are here half the year. We have a lot of friends and I am now the president of the Friends of the Key West Library, which really helps me feel connected to the community. And as far as Key West the character? I always say, if you can’t walk around town and find something to write about, you’re not trying very hard because it’s a very nutty place, Jenny Wheeler: Is it? Lucy Burdette: Yes. With many layers. It’s an expensive place. It’s getting worse as time goes on. And you have a lot of conflicts between the people who are spending a lot of money to buy property here and there are homeless people here because it’s warm all the time, so why not? And then there was a whole group of people who feel like this is their happy place and they come down to unwind. And so there’s a lot of tension between all of that, and that’s very good for a mystery writer. Food as a window into relationships Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. Yes. In the book before this new one, A Dish To Die For, Hayley makes a statement that I love so much that I jotted it down in a notebook at the time. It says, “Food is a window into relationships,” and I thought, Wow, what? A lot is packed into those few words. Could you unpack that for us a little bit and explain more fully what you mean by that? Lucy Burdette: Sure. I suspect this is not true of all families, but in my family you show your love and affection for people according to what you serve them. And often it’s something that you’ve made and it’s a way to connect with them and really enjoy something together. My, mother’s family – they weren’t great cooks, but they were very food centric. I think that’s where it comes from. Jenny Wheeler: There’s also quite a sense in that book of loving what grandmothers wrote and having a sense of culinary history as it relates to families as well. That probably is something that also is a personal thing of yours? Lucy Burdette: Yes. It was so interesting with that book, which is called A Dish to Die For, because I’m always looking for something new about Key West that I haven’t written about that people won’t necessarily know about. And we had a visitor a couple years ago who went out on her own one day and came back saying she’d visited the Key West Women’s Club, which we had never even walked inside. It’s a absolutely beautiful old building that they’re working on restoring, in a very vibrant community who gathers there. And this was during the pandemic that I was writing this book, but the president agreed to meet me over there – it wasn’t open to the public – and show me around. So then of course I’m thinking, oh, this is where you could find a body. It’s always a terrible mindset to have, but I can’t help it. It’s my profession. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The Ingredients of Happiness And at the end, she gave me an old cookbook they had resurrected, of all the recipes and stories from women who had belonged to this club. That was enough to get me going. for the backstory of this book. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. You’ve written other standalones under that name of Lucy Burdette. Including one that you’ve just fairly recently published, called The Ingredients of Happiness. It’s a mild social satire of the happiness industry, I think you’d call it, I wondered how that fits in with your alter ego as Roberta Isleib. Lucy Burdette: Roberta is the real psychologist and I have been wanting to write this book for years. It’s a story about a clinical psychologist. I did my internship and post-grad work at Yale, so I know that community pretty well, and I wanted to tell the story of a new psychologist who’d landed a job at Yale and had a career researching happiness. But she turns out not to be happy herself. I wouldn’t say that I specialized in happiness, but you’ll see a little bit of my dissertation in there about attachment between mothers and infants. It’s a lot harder to write this contemporary women’s fiction because it doesn’t have the structure that a mystery has. There’s going to be a murder or some kind of crime, and then there are going to be suspects, and then there’s going to be a detective, and it all has to be unraveled and tied up at the end. It’s a lot harder when you don’t have those points along the way. This one probably took me about 20 years to get into some kind of shape where a publisher would actually buy it, but I really hope to write more like that because it’s an adventure and it’s a stretch for my writing muscles. Jenny Wheeler: Every chapter has a piece of sage advice observing things about life and what makes people happy or unhappy. And the very first one is from a real person. After that, they’re all. I think mostly anyway, fictional characters. But the first one is from Dr. Laurie Santos, I’ve heard some of her shows. She’s a real award-winning podcaster who calls her show The Happiness Lab and the advice that you quote her giving is so “profound.” In quotes. It is ‘There are two things in life. The stuff you can control and the stuff you can’t.’ And you think, Wow, what a revelation that is. This is a little smile up your sleeve at the whole industry, I think, isn’t it? Happiness Lab – Yale’s most popular class Lucy Burdette: Yes, but at the same time, what she said is really brilliant because if you start by realizing that and you let go of trying to manage the things that you really are not under your control, then life is a lot less stressful. It sounds simple-minded, but I think that’s why people love her. She teaches at Yale. She teaches an undergraduate class in happiness which is the most popular course in the history of that university. You can go look it up and see it. In fact, I think you can sign up to take it. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, fantastic. There’s no doubt that in the world we are living in now post Covid, it’s a different world and there’s a lot of people who have not regained their equilibrium. We haven’t talked at all about this new book, and I’d like to give you a chance to tell us a little bit about the very latest one, A Clue in the Crumbs. It’s about two Scottish sisters who come to Key West, isn’t it? Tell us about this story. Lucy Burdette: Yes. So A Clue in the Crumbs is number 13 in the series, and it came out in August. And always I’m trying to think about which of the characters I’ve used before should come back. Into the story and one of the ones who have has probably turned out to be the favorite of everyone I’ve written is Miss Gloria, who is my main character’s next-door neighbor. My character Hayley and her police detective husband have been to Scotland for their honeymoon, where she helped solve the murder of one of the sons of one of these Scottish sisters. It turns out they have unexpectedly become a TV sensation in a sort of Great British Baking show only, of course, I couldn’t call it that. And they’re coming to America to find the next great baker. My characters convince them to come to Key West and at least practice one of these TV sessions there, and of course it turns out to be a disaster and people are murdered. But those three ladies were so much fun to write and I can’t tell you how much feedback I’ve gotten about them. Miss Gloria – a role model for senior citizens? Some people call Miss Gloria the role model for senior citizens because she and the others – they take naps, but they’re so full of energy and so funny that I had a lot of fun with that book. There’s a scene towards the end which I don’t know if you know what a tiki boat is in New Zealand, but it’s like a little motorboat, but it has a tiki boat with a straw hut roof on top of it and they motor around the water at sunset and they look extremely silly. But that’s where the denouement is. So that’s the kind of research my husband does with me, is to go out on a tiki boat cruise and then go out to dinner. It’s really not bad at all. That one hit the USA Today bestseller list, which has never happened before. I owe all of that to those three ladies, I’m sure of it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Mentioning your husband, does he still play golf? Lucy Burdette: Oh, yes, he plays, yes, I don’t have that much time to play anymore, but he plays at least three times a week. Jenny Wheeler: You did mention how it all got started, but I’d also like to know if you had any goal for your writing when you first began, and if so, if you’ve realized it. Lucy Burdette: I think I’ve gone well past any goal that I thought I had. It,starts just wanting to be able to write the story and then, after I’ve written it, wanting to get an agent and then wanting to get it published, and it’s just been beyond my wildest dreams. You had asked a question in the group of questions that you sent me about do I wish I had done anything different? And I would say not really, except that I didn’t have my first book published until I was 50. If only I had started earlier, I’m just not nearly done. The secret of Lucy Burdette’s success Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s great. Yes, that was probably going to be my very next question, so it’s wonderful that you’ve anticipated it. Tell us though, if there is one thing that you would credit as the secret of the success, what would it be? Lucy Burdette: I’ll tell you two things. One is the writing community that I’ve connected with because I had no idea, really what I was doing. They have been very helpful and supportive. And the other thing is writing is really a lonely occupation. You’re sitting by yourself with your computer and so having other people that you can talk to along the ways is absolutely important. And the other would be, I think you probably have to have some talent, but I don’t know how much if you keep at it and keep working at it. It’s a very discouraging business, so you absolutely have to be stubborn. That would be the other thing I would say. And you have to take feedback, which I am pretty good at. I’ve hired editors along the way. Sometimes they’ll send pages and pages back and you just have to go lie down for a few minutes to recover from the onslaught. But then you say, oh she’s pretty smart. This is going to be a better book after I work on these things. So those are the things I would say. I belong to a blogging group called Jungle Red Writers, which is seven crime fiction writers and they are a huge support. If you’re having a bad day, you can send off a text or an email and get a lot of help. Jenny Wheeler: I think I might have first picked up your books through Jungle Red Writers actually. I think I’ve had quite a number of them on the show now. Lucy Burdette: Oh, terrific. What a typical writing day looks like Jenny Wheeler: Tell us about what a typical writing day looks like and is it different when you’re in Key West to your other home? Lucy Burdette: Probably not too different because I’m more of a morning person than a night person. we have a dog, so I’ll get up, have a cup of coffee, walk the dog, look at email, and then get to work. Usually, it’s a matter of having  – and this is from my psychology background – having a small goal for each day. If you start to think, oh my gosh, I have a novel due in five months, how am I ever going to do it? Then you’re going to get freaked out. But if you think I have to get 500 words today, or even 200 words, or a thousand words. Then they start to add up, and then you can always fix it later. But if you have a blank page, you can’t fix that. So that’s probably my morning. If I don’t spend a lot of time surfing the internet or looking at Facebook then I can get a thousand words done in a couple of hours. It just depends on how disciplined I am. Jenny Wheeler:  We always like to ask our authors about their taste in reading. This is a popular fiction podcast and we always are interested to hear if you are a binge reader and what sorts of reading generally you do, but particularly in the popular fiction area that other people might like to follow on with. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Lucy Burdette is reading now Lucy Burdette: I have a whole stack that I’ve gathered here for mystery readers. Ann Cleeves is someone that I just adore. She had a series that was set in Shetland in Scotland, and that’s probably my favorite of hers. But she has two other series now. One is a male detective and the other is Vera who you may have seen on television. I will buy whatever she writes. I love her books. If you like something lighter, one of my friends on Jungle Red is Rhys Bowen and she had just a new one come out. She writes a Lady Georgie Royal Spyness series and the new one is The Proof Of The Pudding, and she has really fun characters. Her main character is related to the king. They’ve moved along now, so they’re right before World War II. Then sometimes I have to read something that is not a mystery, just to clear my palette. So the one I really loved recently was called Love Marriage by Monica Ali, who I’d never read before, but it’s about two English doctors of Indian descent who are engaged, and when their families get together, all hell breaks loose. That one I love. I also really loved Ragnar Jonasson, who is a Icelandic thriller writer, and he wrote one called Reykjavík, with the Prime Minister of Iceland. And it’s really wonderful. It’s a funny combination of people, but I love reading about Iceland and feeling cold and even though I don’t want to be cold. So those are some of the ones that I’ve can recommend. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. Rhys was one of the very early people on the show, and I was so grateful to her because we’d only just started. We couldn’t really boast of any particular audience and she was so generous with her time. I think we’ve had her on twice. She’s one of my favorite people actually. Lucy Burdette: She’s a lot of fun. Yeah. We’re lucky to have her. What’s next for Lucy Burdette, author Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for you as an author, Lucy? What have you got on your desk over the next 12 months? Lucy Burdette: Two things. One is I’ve just started book 15 in the Key West mystery series. I really literally have four pages and I’m not sure where exactly it’s going. That one will be due at the end of August. And then one of the characters in The Ingredients of Happiness, who you only saw a little bit of, she was a waitress in the first shop, the food shop that’s in the book. She has just been discovered by her birth mother. I really want to write her story. I imagine she’s being told by this birth mother that her birth father is a famous French chef. And since she is very interested in cooking herself, she’s very curious about him. She’s going to go to Paris and find him and we’ll see what happens there. So that’s the one that I’m really just chomping at the bit to write, but I have to do this other one first. Camping in the mangroves Jenny Wheeler: So what was Book 14 in the Key West series?. Lucy Burdette: Book 14 will be out in August, and it’s called A Poisonous Palate. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, fantastic. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Lucy Burdette: Yes, most of the books except for the one that went to Scotland have stayed right in Key West, so I wanted to go up the Keys and explore an island further up, maybe 30, 40 miles up the Keys. And while I was thinking about what the plot could be, one of my fans wrote to me and said, oh, I really love your books and when I was in my early twenties, I came down to the Keys with a girlfriend and we ended up camping in the mangrove trees at Big Pine Key. She went on to describe what a wonderful period of time it was and how they would never do that these days. And I’m thinking, oh my gosh, this is my plot. She was happy for me to take whatever I wanted, but it’s going to have two timelines. One from the late 1970s when a girl in this commune / camp goes missing and the other in the present day when the roommate of that girl comes back to Key West to try to find out what happened to her. So it was very interesting doing the two timelines and have little snippets of the old times interlaced with the present day story. Jenny Wheeler: Sounds great. Tell me in Key West, or in the Keys, do mangroves, grow in water? You couldn’t actually sleep on the ground, do you? Lucy Burdette: No. So you would find a little hammock – that sandy hammock that’s nearby. Yes, that’s absolutely right. Jenny Wheeler: Amazing. I’ve never heard of anybody camping in the mangroves. That’s remarkable in itself. Lucy Burdette: Yes. Where to find Lucy Burdette online Jenny Wheeler: Now, the other book, you mentioned that her father is a well-known French chef. Does that mean that book, part of it will be in Paris? Lucy Burdette: Oh, yes, but that’s not part of the Key West Series. That’ll be a standalone and yes. It’s going to mean I had to go to Paris this spring and I will have to go back again. I’m certain of it. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, you poor thing. Lucy Burdette: I know. (Laughter) Jenny Wheeler: Do you enjoy communicating with your readers and where can they find you online? Lucy Burdette: Oh, there’s nothing better, because as I mentioned, it’s a lonely business, and so to hear from people that they’ve read one of the books and enjoyed it, even if they have bones to pick and say wait a minute, Why would this happen? I don’t mind that either. I just like to hear from people. And aside from the blog, which is Jungle Red Writers, where we are every day with a new blog. I’m on Facebook as Lucy Burdette and also Instagram. I am happy to hear from people. Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting that you mention about sometimes people might call and to question some of the plot links. I guess that is also quite instructive because it gives you a good sense of what people will find credible and what they think. Oh, that’s a bit farfetched. Fact is sometimes stranger than fiction Lucy Burdette: Yes, because you’re so deep into the story that there are things you just wouldn’t see. And other times I’ll just say to myself, it’s fiction, so it’s okay if it doesn’t all make perfect sense. Jenny Wheeler: I always come to that thing that oftentimes fact is stranger than fiction, as they say. Lucy Burdette: That’s right. Jenny Wheeler: And when you listen to the news these days, that is so often the case. Lucy, it’s been wonderful having you with us. Thank you so much. We will have links to all of the things you’ve mentioned, like the Jungle Red Writers in the podcast show notes. We publish a full transcript, so that will be all in the show notes if people want to follow up on it. Lucy Burdette: Wonderful. I’m so delighted that you invited me. We desperately want to come and visit you in New Zealand. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, email me if you do that, but look, it’s lovely talking and I think you’re doing a great job. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} If you enjoyed Lucy you might also enjoy… Leslie Karst’s Sally Solari foodie mystery series are spiced just right to tempt  readers back for second helpings, with razor sharp plotting, a vibrant Santa Cruz setting, and the bonus of some great recipes! Find out why: Leslie is passionate about Santa Cruz What the law taught her about mystery writing Her culinary obsessions Her not-so-secret song-writing life LISTEN TO LESLIE KARST Next episode of Binge Reading Next time on Binge Reading, the first of our Best Of The Year, in two instalments, we’ll do two of those with clips from five (or six) different podcasts in each. The top 10 (or 12) podcasts of the year, selected on the basis of how many times you chose to listen to them. The numbers tell the story. That’s next week on Binge Reading. And remember, leave us a review. If you like the show, we’d love you to do that, to recommend us to others so they will find us too. That’s it for today. Bye now and happy reading.

Jo Thomas writes funny and sunny best-sellers about food, love and family. Books that wrap their arms around you and give you a “great big hug.” And her latest release Countdown to Christmas is billed as “the most uplifting and feel good romance of Christmas 2023.” Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler and on Binge Reading today Jo talks about her own love for books that take you somewhere else, and her ambition to leave readers with hope and a smile on their faces. This week’s Giveaway Our Giveaway this week is a Deck The Halls BookSweeps bundle of historic holiday romances. Enter the drawer for a library of 20 plus historical romances, including Tangled Destiny, a New York Christmas novella, which is the prequel to my own Of Gold & Blood historical mystery series. The BookSweeps draw is valued at $250 and includes a new E reader. Enter the draw here: https://www.booksweeps.com/giveaway/dec23-historical-holiday-romance/ ENTER BOOKSWEEPS DRAW Now do remember you can support the production costs of the show by buying me a cup of coffee at buymeacoffee.com/Jennywheelx. And if you enjoy the show, don’t forget, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best form of recommendation for people to hear about the show and great books they will love to read. Items mentioned in this episode Books Jo is reading Katie Fforde: https://katiefforde.com/, Jill Mansell: https://jillmansell.co.uk/ Milly Johnson: https://millyjohnson.co.uk/ Jilly Cooper: https://www.jillycooper.co.uk/ Galway Bay: https://www.galwaytourism.ie/galway-bay/ Pulia:  https://www.traveldepartment.com/travel-blog/10-reasons-to-visit-puglia-region-in-italy Where to find Jo Thomas online Website: JoThomasauthor.com Instagram: @jothomasauthor Twitter: @jo_thomas01 But that’s enough of the housekeeping, as you can probably tell, I’ve got a real frog in my throat, so I won’t keep talking. I’ll introduce Jo. Introducing romance author Jo Thomas Jo Thomas Best selling author of feel-good fiction featuring food, love and family… Hello there Jo, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Jo Thomas: Jenny, great to be here. Jenny Wheeler: You say up front that the sorts of books you write are about food, love, family, and fun. You like to have happy endings. And they are for people who like sunny and funny. Is that’s how you started out your writing? Jo Thomas: It’s really yes, because they were the books that I loved to read. And I would read authors like Katie Fforde, Jill Mansell and Milly Johnson. I wanted books that would take me to somewhere different where you felt that you would join in old friends? Like in the evenings, I can remember reading a Jilly Cooper and getting into bed at night and thinking, ‘I’m going to visit old friends down the pub.’ And it’s a nice place to be. I want people to feel that they care about the characters in my books and that they’re with them through adversity and that they leave with hope and a smile on their face. When you start writing, people say, oh, write about what you know, and I thought, I don’t know about anything. The only thing I like is food really. But I’m not a chef. I’m just someone who’s interested in where their food comes from and then I thought why not write about the thing I’m interested in? I was in a restaurant in Galway, in Ireland with my husband and I was like, ‘I dunno what I’m gonna write about.’ A perfect setting for Jo’s first best seller I’d ordered some oysters and they put down this platter of oysters in front of me. And just for a moment, it stopped raining for a while. And I looked out the window and I was looking out over Galway Bay and the moon came and shone silvery shadow across the water and the candle was going in the window and it was like being in someone’s front room eating these oysters. And I thought, this is sexy. And once I discovered the whole background to the oysters in Galway, the shell shucking competitions, their place in their culture…  I thought, this is what I want to write about. And so that’s how it started for me. I thought, just like at home, I’m putting food at the heart of my stories. Jenny Wheeler: It sounds like in a number of your books you’ve done that very thing. You’ve gone to a place or a restaurant and been drawn into the stories about food, haven’t you? Jo Thomas: Exactly that. After the oysters my brother was living in southern Italy in Pulia, and I went over there for the olive harvest and I went, whoa, I love this. I’m gonna write about this. And then it just snowballed. And I just realized that I devour cookery books like people read fiction. I love to read cookery books that take me on a journey. And it just snowballed from there. this latest book is set in Maple Country, all about maple syrup in Canada. Of course, last year I was right. Was it last year? There’s so many now. I’ve done gingerbread in Germany. I’ve done Iberico ham in Spain, and I’ve just come back from a wonderful trip to Geneva, which will be on the cards for next year. A Countdown to Christmas in Canada Jenny Wheeler: How wonderful. Yes. Now this Christmas book that we’re going be talking about is called Countdown To Christmas, and as you say, it’s set in a very small northern forest town in Canada where they depend on maple syrup for their economy. You’ve got some wonderful maple syrup recipes in it as well, and your key character is a baker who’s lost the joy of cooking. Her life is on a downturn and she rediscovers that she’s got skills that people value when she’s visiting this farm. But you’ve got a great thing set up where you do two hooks a year, one for winter, one for summer. Tell us about how that rhythm got started. Jo Thomas: I can’t remember how it got started really. When I started writing when I wrote The Oyster Catcher, I was then also writing a big book and a novella each year. I’ve got novellas that just come out as eBooks, and then it moved on to ‘if you’re doing novella, you know that you might as well do another big book.’ They just seem to be the stories that I wanted to tell. I love the seasons. I love change in seasons. I love now as we are moving into autumn and we are, the leaves are coming off the trees and winter is beckoning. I love that change of seasons and I love everything that it brings with it, but just as much I love the summer. I love the spring rolling into summer. I live on the West Wales coast, by the sea and I love the beach in all weathers. I love it in the summer, but I love it just as much in winter with the dogs having a good old romp along the beach with the wind in our face. I do love the seasons and of course, I love the way the kitchen changes with those seasons, whether we are doing, light salads and cooking outside. I love cooking outside, but just as much I love hunkering down and doing Sunday lunch and everyone around the table inside. It’s all really a pattern of my life within my kitchen where I’ll sit and write books and cook meals and the family come and go. A summer book…. and a winter book… So it became a very natural pattern. I’ve just finished writing now next summer’s book and we’ll be returning to Provence in France for that, which is an area I absolutely love. And people who’ve read my books will know that I wrote Escape To A French Farmhouse, all set in Provence. And we are doing a return to Provence, which I’m very excited about. Jenny Wheeler: Fabulous. Now Countdown to Christmas is being built as “the most uplifting and feel good romance for Christmas 23.” What do you think makes a good Christmas book? What do readers look for? Jo Thomas: You’ve got to have all the feels in there. You’ve got to have all the feels. We do romanticize Christmas and I quite like the fact that we actually, a lot of people just call it the holidays because whatever you are thinking is, it is a nice time to gather with family. So it is about being with ones you love; it is about having all the senses, snow, candles, lights. I spent time in Iceland and I’ve written a book in Iceland and there so much of the days in dark, but they use candles everywhere. And I can remember staying in this hotel once and you went down into sort of semi-cellar for breakfast. And the baking smells drew you in. And when you got down there, the snow was halfway up the windows and there were candles in every window. And I thought it was like stepping into a great big hug. And I think that’s what we want from a good Christmas story. We want to step into that hug. We wanted to be a lovely, warm place that makes us feel good. That’s the point of the sorts of books that I write and many of my contemporaries write, they are feel good fiction. We want to feel good in them. The ‘big hug’ in Welsh – heart warming books Jenny Wheeler: Hey, listen. And you mentioned the great big hug. I must just divert a little bit from the books to ask you about. On your website, you say, people say your books like a great Welsh hug, and there’s an indecipherable Welsh word that means great big hug. Tell us what that word is and how do you pronounce it? Jo Thomas: That word is cwtch. So you have a cwtch. So a cwtch is a hug, but it can also mean a warm, cozy little room. Like a snug, the cwtch. And you cwtchy on in. Jenny Wheeler: Oh nice! That’s something I’ve learnt today… Now your character, Chloe forgive me if I say, but at the beginning, she’s a little bit of a limp rag. I found her just a little bit irritating because she’d built her whole life around her son. She’s a single mom and he goes off to visit with dad when he’s 12 years old. Admittedly, a mom without her son at Christmas? It is difficult, but she’s a bit of a limp rag at the beginning. What am I going to do? And all she does is fantasize about what Ruben would be doing now, and also looking back on her relationship with Ruben’s father and asking herself. ‘Could they have made it work?’ even though she acknowledges over and over again that ‘no, they couldn’t and that it said they didn’t try. But she does develop during the course of the story and become a lot more interesting and has a bit more going for her as the story develops. And I wondered – a very long question, but do you quite often like to write about midlife women who are making a fresh start in life? Jo Thomas: Oh yeah that’s bang on what I like to write about. Because I do think we reach crossroads in our lives when we get to midlife, whether it be, should I have had children, looking back, and I think you do get to a point of asking where could I have gone down a different road? I didn’t want her to be limp, but I did want her to be at a point where I think having spent all those years bringing up her son and they’ve been through Covid, so it’s just been her and him. Suddenly Christmas on her own is quite a big deal. But also what I quite liked about her is that she is very keen for her son to have a really good relationship with his father. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What if you’d taken a different path in life? And I do think that, we all look back and think, oh, what if I’d gone down a different route or whatever? Not that really would’ve been a possibility, but I, there is an element of that when you sit there and you take time to think. And also it is can often be a time for new beginnings if we are brave enough. Jenny Wheeler: She does get the opportunity to take a very big step into an adventure, and that’s how she ends up in Northern Canada. And she takes it, doesn’t she? She really makes the most of it. Jo Thomas: She does and for very good reasons really. She it is just her and her son now. She doesn’t have any other family and she is not prepared to just accept a possible inheritance from someone she doesn’t know. She needs to know. Why she didn’t know about this person, who they were, what their life was, and to be able to pass that story onto her son. So that should this happen, the reason that they have got themselves into a better situation is down to one person who she was related to, and she’s not prepared to just take the money and run. She wants to know firstly. Is it for real? And secondly, who was this person and why did he have nobody else to leave his money to? Why is it her? So there are lots of and she’s full of integrity and really wants to know what the story is so that can be handed on down. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Yes. As we’ve mentioned, food is very important. There are some great recipes in the book, but I noticed also that you’ve become an agent for maple syrup during the course of the story. How did that happen? Jo’s love affair with maple syrup… Jo Thomas: I don’t know that I’m an agent for maple syrup, but as I say I always put food at the heart of the story and Canada is very close to my heart. I honeymooned there and I really wanted to explore maple syrup more. I use it a lot in cooking. For instance, on a big Sunday roast, I’ll do parsnips and I’ll do them in a bit of butter and oil and seasoning and then drizzle them with maple syrup and toss them in the maple syrup. You get lovely caramelizing parsnips to go with the roast. Or at Christmas time, I’ll do a ham, a roast ham, and then score the fat. Rub it with some mustard, put it in some cloves, and drizzle it again with maple syrup. It gives it a lovely sweetness. And because there are four types of maple syrup, you go from light to very dark, you can really decide on the depth of flavor that you want from the maple syrup as well. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Actually, funnily enough, I did a roast cauliflower dish for a potluck lunch that I was going to last weekend. It was partly an Ottolenghi influenced recipe, but it had maple syrup on the roast cauliflower. It was gorgeous. Jo Thomas: Oh, I’m thinking of doing roast cauliflower. We are going to have a writer’s Christmas lunch, and I was thinking what to do for the vegetarians. I was thinking roast cauliflower, so I might look that one up with a drizzle of maple syrup would be wonderful. Jenny Wheeler: It also had a drizzle of pomegranate molasses. Jo Thomas: Oh, okay. Summer At The Ice Cream Cafe Jenny Wheeler: It was really good. Very Ottolenghi. Listen, we know that Christmas book is going to be a winner, but your last summer book was just the wonderful kind of antithesis. It was called Summer at the Ice Cream Cafe, and it was about Beca Valentino who goes back to her home village, a seaside village, and wants to buy a gelato shop. Now, tell us about that one. It’s just the total other side of it, isn’t it? The summer and the ice cream at the beach… Jo Thomas: My senses of where I live, walking the beach, the sand between your toes, the smell of the sea. I just love it, the call of the seagulls. And in that book, I very much wanted to talk about – its set in Wales. And in Wales, there are an awful lot of Italian families who came over and settled. And I have Italian heritage and my mother’s family came to London, moved to Clerkenwell and became ice cream sellers with handcarts in London. There was a little bit of wanting to explore my heritage there and also. I wanted to write about a place that I love, which is Pembrokeshire in Wales, which is where I live. And again, as we were saying women in midlife, when you have climbed to the top of the mountain, you’ve worked hard, but actually get there and say, was this the mountain that I really wanted to climb? And looking out and thinking, should I have climbed that mountain over there? So Beca hasn’t had children, and her marriage has fallen apart. But she decides that she still wants to have family in some way or be a nurturer. And so she decides to foster, and the house that she’s always loved comes up for sale. She sells up her business and moves back to her hometown and buys the house. And it’s the sort of town where you’ve got a lot of interesting things at play because you’ve got second homeowners who will come down from London and they’ve got lovely homes there. Midlife stories about finding your place You’ve got local people who might be working two or three jobs in the hospitality industry because that’s the thing that drives the economy there. And you’ve got a lot of holiday makers who come and enjoy the beaches in the school holidays. So there’s lots of interesting interactions at play there and a community that maybe isn’t as integrated as it should be. And so, this was a way of taking the character back to their past. She has to find her own place in that now because is she a local, is she someone moving into the area? So she’s finding her own place, coming to terms with her own past and making a future for herself. Within that, through the gelato and the boys that she fosters, who are not the small children that she expected to take onto the beach and make sandcastles with, they come with their own stories, their own issues. They find their way together through gelato to a new beginning. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, it’s a lovely story. Tell me, with the Christmas books, do you find that your readers have particular rituals about Christmas books? I’ve been interested in previous years when we’ve talked to authors. Some people like to hide away the book and not open it until Christmas Eve and other people start reading it on the 1st of December. Tell us what your readers tell you about Christmas books. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The ritual reading of the Christmas book Jo Thomas: Yeah, I get loads of messages like that. Some people are, I’m not going to start until November. I’m not going to start till December, or I’m saving this for Christmas. But I think more and more, and I’ve seen it more since Covid really, is that people are diving into Christmas way earlier than before, and just saying, do you know what? It brings a bit of joy. It brings lights, it brings gathering with people, it brings fun. People are embracing Christmas a lot earlier, I think, than they were before Covid, just taking time to appreciate being at home, being with family, or the ones they love. Jenny Wheeler: Actually that raises another interesting question. Have you noticed that these uplifting books have done better since Covid? People are really looking for something to escape into? Jo Thomas: I really think people are.  I really think that more than ever with what’s going on in the world, within the country, when times are tough, people want to go somewhere where there is hope. And that’s the big thing about feel good fiction. These books  offer hope, they offer smiles, they offer a fun place to be. And people need that right now. Jenny Wheeler: Turning away from your books to your wider writing career, how did you actually get started in writing? Readers always love to know that. Jo Thomas: I was a radio producer for a national radio station in the UK. I was working away from home, coming home weekends, and I was at that point of making decisions about my life. We wanted a family and we made the decision to move back to Wales and then we waited quite a long time to have family. When we did have family, we ended up having three under the age of three. Fitting writing around a very busy family So I was very busy at home with three children under the age of three. But I needed something for myself. And I wanted to earn a living too. My husband was out working long hours. And so, I started to think about writing and I started by writing for the Women’s magazine. Short stories. I went on a writing course and thought I want to start with short stories. And that took a long time to learn the skills of a good feel good fiction, short stories. I can remember the first one I got published was in People’s Friend and then I think it was Take a Break. And I remember standing in the kitchen on a Sunday morning and the editor phoned me saying, we’re going to take your story. And I can remember thinking, really, you want to publish my story? I then worked as hard as I could getting any short stories going because they provided income. I would be in the car with the children. I would drop one off at school, one off at nursery. The baby would fall asleep in the car and wherever he fell asleep, I would just pull up, pull out my laptop, and write. And that was almost like someone who goes to the gym and they feel they might not want to do it when they start doing it but they come back feeling so much better. And that was my me time. When the baby woke I closed the laptop and off we’d go. So, it was short story writing for me. And then I thought, could I move on to novels? And I joined the Romantic Novelist Association and they have a new writer’s scheme and I spent many years learning my craft, going on courses, reading books, working out the stories that I wanted to tell. I think The Oyster Catcher was possibly my fifth attempt at a novel. And of course, you’re at that point of, oh, I’ll just give up. A ten year journey to a debut best seller And I was asked if by a publisher if she could publish it as an Ebook only. And I said no, it’s really not good enough. I’ll write another one. She said, ‘No, Jo, I want to take this book and publish it. So I said, okay. Then I thought no one will see it. So she published it and it rose up the Amazon charts. It went to number two in the Amazon charts and sat between Twelve Years A Slave and The Book Thief for many weeks. And at that point the bigger publishers came in and I went to auction and ended up with a four book deal. So I was a 10 year overnight success. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Tell me, do those magazines still exist? If you were starting out today, could you get short stories publish still in those magazines? Jo Thomas: Yes, and I still write them for the magazines. The People’s Friend is still there. And My Weekly. Whenever I have a new book coming out, I always have a short story in My Weekly, and in fact, I’m going to have a lot more coming out in My Weekly coming up in the New Year because people do love those kind of, if you’re on the bus or the train, just quick short fiction. And also my short stories are going into an Ebook at the end of November so people can get a little Ebook of short stories, recipes and stories about why I wrote the short stories in the first place. People like those little snatches of feel good fiction. Jenny Wheeler: If there was one thing that you see as the secret of your success, what would it be? The importance of ‘finding your own voice’ Jo Thomas: It’s definitely finding your own voice, writing you what you want to read. It’s about, yeah, just finding who you are and the stories that you’ve got to tell. Once I discovered that the stories I wanted to tell were through food, through travel, and through what goes on in my brain when I don’t think there’s anything going on in my brain, that’s when I found me and I found my voice. And the other thing is just keep going until you find that voice. Find the stories you want to tell. Jenny Wheeler: Tell us those first four that you wrote before The Oyster, Catcher. were they the same sort of stories? Jo Thomas: No. Some of them were just a complete mess, to be honest. But there’s one there that I want to still do something with. And hope to at some point there’s an idea in there in amongst all the mess that I still want to pluck out and use. And in fact, in my first attempt at a story, which we’ll never see the light of day, but when I wrote a Winter Under the Stars and I went away to Swedish Lapland with my friend Katie Fforde, and we went to visit the reindeer and to meet the Saami people there, we also went husky racing. We went on a husky trail. The very first start of my first story had started with huskies and wanting to do some kind of a race with the huskies. That came back into play at that point, so nothing is ever wasted. Jenny Wheeler: But it sounds like you used those earlier books to find your voice? Jo Thomas: Yes. What Jo is reading now Jenny Wheeler: Turning to Jo as reader, because we always like to ask what you’re reading and what you’d like to recommend to others. What are you reading at the moment and have you been a binge reader in the past? Jo Thomas: I’ve just finished reading Jilly Cooper’s new book, which comes out in November. It’s all set in the world of football. So that’s great. I’ve always loved Jilly Cooper’s books, so I was delighted to get an early copy of that. I’ve also just started reading an early copy of Millie Johnson’s new book, which is fantastic. I love to read the sort of same sort of books really that I like to write, like Millie, like Katie Fforde, like Jill Mansell,  I love those. But my other ‘turn to’ when I don’t know what to read and I’m going to binge read is Jackie Collins. I love a Jackie Collins book. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. I didn’t know Jilly was still writing. That’s fantastic. Jo Thomas: Her new one is out in November. If you like a jolly, a fat old book full of all the favorite characters and the animals and everything. So that’s out in November. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the of time, is there one thing about your creative career you’d change if you could, what would it be? Jo Thomas: I don’t think there’s anything I would change. I just wish I had the confidence to do it earlier and to believe in my voice earlier. Jenny Wheeler: Quite a lot of people say that. Jo Thomas: Yeah. And when you get there it’s a very nice feeling. Jenny Wheeler: So, what now on your desk for the next 12 months, Jo? The next summer one is probably already in the can, is it?  What are you working on? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Jo Thomas and her writing life in the next year Jo Thomas: Yes. So next summer is in the can. That is Love in Provence. As I say, that’s a follow on from Escape to the French farmhouse, back to the lavender fields of Provence which I love. I really am looking forward to that one coming out. Today is publication day in the UK for Countdown to Christmas. We’ve got lots of lovely things going on today. I’ll be taking the book out to lunch., and so that run runs up to Christmas. Then we have Love in Provence coming out, that’s in the can. And I am writing next winter’s book. As I say, I’m just back from Geneva. I’ve got loads of notes to write up and I’ve got to dive on in and get that next book written up for next winter. And then there’s the short story collection coming out at the end of November. That’s the other thing that has happening. Jenny Wheeler: Sure. How did you manage during lockdown with doing the research for your thought? Jo Thomas: That is when I wrote my Summer At The Ice Cream Cafe. That was really my lockdown book. I wrote about the place right on my doorstep that I was sitting, staring out at. Jenny Wheeler: Very clever. Do you enjoy interaction with your readers, and where can they find you, either in person or online? Jo Thomas: Oh, I love interacting with readers. They can find me on Instagram, on Twitter, on Facebook, on Threads. Where to find Jo Thomas online I’m all over it, but if you really want to join in, on a Friday at 5pm British time, I go live on Instagram and we chat from my kitchen and I’ll be cooking dinner. We bring a glass of wine, we talk about what I’m reading, we talk about what we’re cooking and for about half an hour, just have a lovely chat for any of the readers that are out there. Jenny Wheeler: Wow that. Sounds amazing. Jo Thomas: We call it Bookery Club. It’s a cross between books and cookery Ha. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. I noticed on your website too that give away vouchers for food, too. Jo Thomas: Yes.  Around about publication time. My lovely team get together and they might get some gift vouchers going or they might get a prize going. So if you head over to my website, Joe Thomas author, you can see what’s happening there and any competitions that we have running. Have a look and check in on the on the website. And you’ll see there as well my Twitter feed, so you can join in on that if you want to. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Thank you so much for your time, Joe. It’s been fantastic. Jo Thomas: It’s been lovely talking to you, and thank you for inviting me. If you loved Jo you might also like…. Melody Carlson’s inspirational Christmas stories – one of our 2022 Christmas authors… Melody Carson is an award-winning author of inspirational romance with more than 200 books and 6.5 million copies sold. She certainly knows what she’s doing. Included in that backlist is a goodly number of Christmas novellas. Melody talks about starting on Christmas stories twenty-three years ago. She’s written one practically every year since, creating stories for people who may not expect a fabulous family time in the festive season, as well as about her project to develop more of her books into screenplays. LISTEN TO MELODY Next week on Binge Reading Lucy Burdette and her Key West food critic cozy mysteries… Next week on Binge Reading, Lucy Burdette and her best selling cozy mystery featuring sleuth Hayley Snow, a Key West food critic who mixes her culinary passion with a talent for solving crime. That’s next week on Binge Reading. You can support the cost of producing the show by buying me a cup of [email protected]/Jennywheelx. And remember also leave us a review if you enjoy the show, so others will find us too. That’s it for today. Bye now and happy reading.

Michelle Major’s USA Today, best-selling romance is all about new beginnings, second chances, and always a Happily Ever After. Just the thing for Christmas relief and her latest festive book, The Christmas Cabin delivers on all fronts. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and on Binge Reading this week, Michelle talks about the appeal of Christmas stories -she’s written lots of them – and why Second Chance Romance is one of her favorite things to write. This Week’s Giveaway Our Giveaway this week is a Book Bundle of three holiday novellas for my own Of Gold & Blood historic mystery series. If you enjoy twisty family secrets and a dash of sweet romance, you’ll love this trio of novellas et in New York, Hawaii, and California. DOWNLOAD HOLIDAY NOVELLAS https://dl.bookfunnel.com/1z2rd1zjlx You can support the show by buying me a cup of [email protected]/jennywheelx. Your contribution helps to pay for production costs, but all of my time in researching and recording the show is done for no cost. If you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others can find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to find great books they will love to read. Links to things mentioned in the episode: Julia Quinn’s Bridgerton series – books; https://juliaquinn.com/series/bridgertons/ Bridgerton TV show:  https://www.tvguide.com/news/bridgerton-season-3-release-date-cast-trailers-news-everything-to-know/ Shonda Rhimes: https://www.imdb.com/name/nm0722274/ Lisa Kleypas: https://lisakleypas.com/ Jill Shalvis: The Sweetheart List, https://www.jillshalvis.com/the-sweetheart-list Readers Take Denver: https://www.readerstakedenver.com/ Lori Foster Reader Author Get Together: https://readerauthorgettogether.com/ Where to find Michelle online Website: Michellemajor.com Facebook: @Michellemajorauthor Instagram @Michellemajorbooks. Introducing romance author Michelle Major Romance author Michelle Major – feel good books for Christmas Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Michelle. Hello there Michelle, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Michelle Major: I’m so excited to be here. Thank you. Jenny Wheeler: The Christmas Cabin is your newest release. and it’s also part of the very successful Carolina Girls series.When I looked at the series, I discovered that this is actually the third Christmas book you’ve done in that series, so obviously your readers love them. What do you think it is that attracts readers to Christmas stories? Michelle Major: As a reader myself and a writer I think Christmas stories are so special because it’s a time of year when we look back at our memories whether we have those rose-colored glasses on and everybody thinks about the perfect, Christmas around the fire though unfortunately, it’s not always the reality in the world at large or in a family. And so, I think escaping into a Christmas book where you can just sink into all of those traditions and sweetness is really special at this time of year. Jenny Wheeler: Now the couple in your story, Laura and Ben, were married briefly as youngsters and for quite understandable reasons it didn’t last very long. They’re now meeting up again quite some time later in their old home territory. I guess you would describe this as a Second Chance Romance, wouldn’t you? Michelle Major: I would. And Second Chance Romance is one of my favorites to write, so I loved it. The appeal of Second Chance Romance Jenny Wheeler: Why is that? Why is Second Chance Romance so attractive? Michelle Major: My writing process often starts with character development and the emotions between the two main characters, You know, in movies, I love Love at First Sight shows, and I love those moments of being hit by something. But I think writing Second Chance, it’s just so juicy because they have a history and often it hasn’t ended well. You can jump in the deep end on the emotional tension. Jenny Wheeler: I guess often when a relationship breaks up, people are at a certain point in their development and they frame things in a certain way, which may not actually be at all correct and truthful and may not reflect what the other party sees. And then years later, they’ve had a chance to think about it a bit more, so they might see it all rather differently. Michelle Major: They might see it differently, but I think a lot of times when second chance couples first come back together, they don’t quite see it differently at the start of their reunion. They’re maybe stunted a little bit back in that breakup, those feelings of the big breakup song and what happened. The readers get to go on this growth journey with them where they realize, oh, maybe it wasn’t quite how I thought it was years ago. Jenny Wheeler: Sure. They come to it with preconceptions. That’s right. The Christmas theme comes through very strongly in The Christmas Cabin because you’ve got a Christmas market that takes place. I’d like you to give us just a little bit more of a rundown on the storyline to help explain why that Christmas market appears. Hope, healing and Happily Ever After Michelle Major: I would love to do that. Lauren, the heroine, comes back to Magnolia, North Carolina, her hometown that she really hasn’t returned to since her breakup and divorce with Ben. And she brings her daughter, who’s having some struggles of her own – her teenage daughter – back for her younger brother’s wedding. And when she gets there, she realizes she didn’t have a great home life and the brightest spot in her youth was Camp Blossom, the local summer camp. That was, for her as a child and a teenager, her found family at that point. The camp is closing and is being redeveloped. Ben and her estranged father are doing that, but Lauren decides that she’s really going to give the owner of the camp and herself and her daughter one last amazing Christmas to rekindle all those great memories. The Christmas market is a big part of that. Jenny Wheeler: It’s also an acknowledgement of the older man, isn’t it? The old man and his life achievement, so it’s very sweet. You describe your books as stories of hope, healing and happily ever after. And I thought to myself that it’s really clear that at the moment, the way that the world is, people are under a tremendous amount of stress, which probably began with Covid, but nothing’s really returned to how we understood it to be before. Do you think there’s a place for this hope, healing and happy ever after even more now than there was before? Michelle Major: Yes, absolutely. Even more, I think. It’s not to discount the problems in the world, but I think as people and individuals, it does get so heavy. A lot of that did start during Covid, when so many of us felt so isolated. This ability to connect through the words on a page, to me it’s one of my favorite things about being a writer to provide this. I know as a person, I have a strict rule when watching movies that if I know it’s not going to be a happy ending, I can’t sign up for that at this point. I’m willing to laugh and cry, but I need some redemption at the end. Small town romance in North Carolina Jenny Wheeler: Yes. You’ve written over 30 contemporary romances in eight different series, and the most recent ones as far as I could see were Carolina Girls and Magnolia Sisters. They’re both set in North Carolina and for some reason North Carolina’s been very much on my radar recently as a place where a lot of romance and sweet romance family stories are set. I wondered if there’s any particular reason for that? Michelle Major: I think North Carolina… I didn’t grow up there. I grew up in the Midwest, in Ohio, and I’ve lived for the past 30 years in Colorado. But my family vacationed to North Carolina, back in the late seventies and early eighties, when we were in the wood -aneled van, trundling down the highway I recall the beaches as really special there, but it also has mountains and small towns. It’s a great mix of a lot of things that makes small town sweet romance special. Jenny Wheeler: Your stories are also about facing up to life not delivering what people might have hoped for. About brokenness and disappointed expectations. I think in the previous book, the heroine had been the self-proclaimed Queen Bee of Magnolia, and now her husband’s been arrested for fraud, and she’s become an outcast in the shallow circles where she used to rule. Now that sounds such a great set up for a story of somebody getting to know themselves well. Do you think people like to even get a few lessons in how to do that when things go wrong? What readers like best about Michelle’s books Michelle Major: I hope so. I do as a reader, and I love to explore it as a writer. I think when you are reading a book about people, especially a book that’s set in contemporary times, people who have real problems that you can relate to, it does give you some empathy for the character. Then as they overcome the problems, you can see yourself in those people and watching them grow and learn and become better versions of themselves I hope is inspirational. Jenny Wheeler: What do readers tell you they like best about your books? Michelle Major: I think – I hope the romance –  but I also think that I hear from a lot of readers because I tend to write books with big worlds in a small town where they’re close knit. There’s a lot of secondary characters. And I hear a lot about the female friendships in my book and those feeling really real, which I love because I’ve been married over 20 years and I adore my husband, but I don’t think I could get through life without my female friends too. So showing that aspect, all aspects of a character, I think is really fun. Jenny Wheeler: Did you start out writing these sorts of books right from the beginning or is it something that’s evolved as you’ve gone along? Michelle Major: I started out as a category series writer with Harlequin. I was writing shorter books and the deadline schedule was such that I was doing several a year, which I think was such a good training ground for me as far as plotting and staying on deadlines. Then when I branched out into writing these bigger stories, I felt like that was a natural progression for me as an author. Jenny Wheeler: And they were small town sweet romances, were they, at the beginning? A ‘light bulb’ moment in a terrible job Michelle Major: They were. I’ve done a variety of heat levels in my books, but probably if you’re doing a one to four scale of heat, I think four is the hottest I’ve gotten. But always with that kind of cozy, small town feel. Jenny Wheeler: Sure. And did you have a light bulb moment when you thought, I’ve got to write a book, or how did it happen? Michelle Major: I absolutely had a light bulb moment. I was always a reader and I was a journalism major in college, but I had a career in human resources during the late ‘90s, early 2000s, when the.com bubble busted. I was traveling the country laying people off. My company went bankrupt and it was a terrible job. One time, randomly in the Denver airport, I picked up a romance. I’d never read. the genre before, and it was exactly what I needed at that point in my life. That escape, that happiness, those butterflies in my stomach. And I also thought, ‘Oh my gosh.’ The stories that I tell myself in my head or I watch a show and think this is how I would’ve done it,t hey lend themselves to romance. So that’s what I want to do next. Jenny Wheeler: Do you remember what that book was? Michelle Major: I do, it was it was An Offer From A Gentleman. It was a Julia Quinn, one of the Bridgerton books. Writing while baby sleeps – not as easy as it sounds Jenny Wheeler: Have you got into the series on Tv? Michelle Major: Yes, I love this series on Tv and it’s been so fun since I read those books, a decade ago. It’s great to come back and revisit those characters. Jenny Wheeler: So you read that book, then you went home and just started writing? Michelle Major: Not exactly. I was still working and then at that point I was getting married and when I was pregnant with my first child, I thought, okay, I’m going to work part-time, which I still was, and I’m going to have a baby. But babies sleep all the time, so while he’s sleeping, I’m going to just write, and write, and write. What I didn’t realize, is that at least my baby, slept for five minutes at a time. And so it took a few years. I worked on craft and I joined my local Romance Writers of America chapter and met a like-minded group of people and then eventually the kids slept and I got into it more seriously. Jenny Wheeler: I think this is a familiar story with many writers actually, there are quite a few years of apprenticeship and learning and perseverance. There’s almost no writer you talk to who has had that overnight success. Michelle Major: I agree with that. I wish when I was reading the classics and reading literary books in college and in my early twenties that I had picked up a romance, because maybe I could have started earlier. But I also think things happen when they are supposed to. And I’m really grateful that they did. How Michelle Major approaches her writing Jenny Wheeler: It’s funny, isn’t it? Because that does reflect the way that romance was regarded in those years as being not as important as literary writers and so it wasn’t ever included on college reading lists and things like that. Michelle Major: Exactly. Exactly. But I think some of that – I hope some of that – is changing. And to me, one of the really great things about romance is the author and reader community. People are so dedicated and so open and I love it. Jenny Wheeler: So are you somebody who just sits down and starts writing, or do you do a lot of plotting beforehand? Michelle Major: I like to think of myself as a planster. I’m somewhere in between. As I said, I do a lot of character development where I know a lot about the character’s wound and what they have to overcome. I know the ‘big tent poles of the plot’ and I always know how it’s going to end for some reason, the first scene and the last scene. But then I tend to plot. More specifically, three chapters in advance where I give myself a little freedom to see where the book is going to go. But I like to have some guidance so I’m not writing into the mist. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And what does a typical writing day look like for you at this stage of your life? Michelle Major: At this stage, I am newly an empty nester. That is a big change in a good way. I get up really early, still 5 or 5:30 am and I’ll do some movement, walk the dog and let’s say get my own self in order. And then I sit down and I tend to do a couple of hours straight in the morning and then take a break, do email, social media, and then come back in the afternoon for more. Making it work no matter what Jenny Wheeler: And do you have a daily goal in terms of the number of words you write? Michelle Major: I typically do a weekly goal, which is, if I’m drafting a book, it’s between 10 and 15,000 a week. I like to break that up into two to 3000 words a day. It doesn’t always work that way, so sometimes I’ll have to make it up. Jenny Wheeler: I read a little bit on your website about your early days and your adventurous spirit, the way you set off across the country. I like to ask about previous work experience before you became a writer and if it was of benefit or detriment to their working as a writer when they set to it. And you sound as if you had a very great adventurous spirit when you were a young woman taking off like that. Can you tell us a bit about those early years? Michelle Major: I grew up, as I said, in Ohio, but my family always took vacations near the mountains and I knew I wanted to live somewhere near the mountains in college. I graduated early. That was before the internet and computers were pretty new to the mainstream public. I got a book out of the library called Jobs in Paradise, and I sent my resume and my letter out to any job that was available in a state that had mountains. I got hired on at a dude ranch in Colorado. And I had some experience riding horses, but I packed up my old Honda and my luggage was black garbage bags and put everything in and headed west. I had a variety of jobs in my early days out here. I didn’t know anybody in the state, so I was just trying to find a way to stay here. And I think, at that point, when you’re in the middle of it, it’s like writing a story where you’re not thinking, wow, this is an accomplishment. But I think the perseverance there to go, okay, I’m going to make this work no matter what I have to do has served me in the writing career. One thing that is the secret of success? Jenny Wheeler: If there was one thing that you’d see as the secret of your success in that career, what would it be? Michelle Major: I think keeping the promises to myself. It’s certainly easier to write when you have a deadline that comes from your publisher, and you’ve got an advance. But I think the perseverance of going, okay, I say I’m going to do this. Sitting down and writing the words even on a day when it doesn’t come easy and I’d rather watch Instagram reels of cute cats all day. I think that is my superpower as a writer. Jenny Wheeler: Promises to myself. That’s fantastic. Was there a specific goal that you had in mind when you started out as an author? Have you still got an unfinished ambition, like to have a Bridgeton series on Tv or something? What are your goals and have you reached them yet? Michelle Major: I have reached some of them for sure. I would love to have a Bridgerton series on Netflix. I said every author everywhere in the world, every day. But goal-wise, one of my big goals, and I’m not sure where it came from, but I’m a pretty fast writer and it’s also the only thing I really like to do and that I’m good at doing. Other than walking my dog, I don’t have a lot of hobbies. I decided I wanted to publish 50 books in 10 years and 2023 is my 10-year-anniversary. I hit 50 books, actually in 2022. So that felt really good, to just stick with it for that goal. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. And I think we can all remind ourselves that Bridgerton actually took 20 years for them to discover it, didn’t it? Michelle Major: Yes exactly. What Michelle Major is reading Jenny Wheeler: In fact, the actual Tv series has been rather pepped up for the 2020s. When the books were first published in 2000, they weren’t quite the same, were they? Michelle Major: They were not quite the same, which is also really fun to see how you can modernize something for where the culture is at a time in a really respectful way. I love it. And who wouldn’t want something done by Shonda Rhimes? I think she is fantastic. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, she has got an amazing touch. Look, we always like to ask our authors about their taste as readers, and we do focus on the popular fiction side of things, the books that people read for comfort or entertainment or escapism. I’m not sure if you read books for that purpose. I suspect you do. But what are you reading at the moment and what would you like to recommend to our listeners? Michelle Major: I will admit I don’t read as much for pleasure now as I used to, just because the writing takes to so much time. But I absolutely love reading for pleasure. And as I said, Bridgerton was my first foray into romance and I’ve always loved historical romance. Lisa Kleypas is another like super author for me. I’m a big fan. Right now, I am reading The Sweetheart List by Jill Shalvis, who’s a contemporary romance author, and I’ve been reading her for decades and think she’s fantastic. I think when you find an author whose voice, and humor resonates with you as a reader, it’s just such a pleasure to return to whatever world they’re creating. Jenny Wheeler: Sure That’s right. Looking back down the tunnel of time at your creative career, if there was one thing that you would change, what would it be? Michelle Major: I would say, as I mentioned, I wish I would’ve started earlier. And two, I wish that when I was first starting, I wasn’t quite as – there is a stigma around romance outside of the romance community – and I wish that I had – I wouldn’t say told more people off –  but stood up for the genre the way I do now, as a newer author. Writing romance proudly Jenny Wheeler: What would you say to those who do still rather look down their noses at romance? What do you say? Michelle Major: I think the fact that it’s undeniable how much romance books sell. I think that is a true factual thing, but I think, something that people need to remember too is most stories, whether it’s commercial fiction or big blockbuster movies, they have a thread of romance running through them. It is something that binds us all together. I think it’s important to point out, you might think you don’t like romance, but if you tell me what your favorite movies are or your favorite books, I bet I can find a romance subplot at least in them. Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for Michelle as author? When you look ahead for the next 12 months, what have you got on your desk that you’d like to see finished by this time in 2024 or started by this time in 2024? Michelle Major: My next book comes out in February, I have that to look forward to. And I think there’s one more book, at least that I’m planning in the Carolina Girls Series. And then I’m working on some new proposals. One where I’ve returned to Colorado as a setting and another one in Tennessee, which is another one of my favorite places. For me, this freedom of being an empty nester allows me to spread my wings a little bit and see what excites me. Jenny Wheeler: The February book, is that part of one of your existing series? Michelle Major: It’s actually part of one of the Harlequin continuity series that I’ve been writing on for 10 books now called The Fortunes of Texas. And it’s a continuity that’s been a favorite with the reader base for, gosh, I think over 20 years now. So it’s really fun. It used to be six books, but now they’re expanding it to 12 books. But the continuity will go six books, one published every month, each by a different author. It’s a very collaborative effort between the authors as far as building the world and connecting the books together. The Fortunes of Texas – Harlequin series Jenny Wheeler: Have you done any of those before? Michelle Major: I have. They started the beginning of the year, January or February, and I’ve been the kickoff author for the past six or seven years. So it’s fun. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. And do they have the same cast of characters? Michelle Major: They do have the same. It’s a family that is a very prolific family as far as they have many branches to the Fortunes family tree. We get what we call a series Bible, so an outline of the stories and then as a group of. authors, we get to dig in and make each one our own. For me, a little bit of a palette cleanser because it’s still within the genre, but it’s something different than the worlds I normally write in. It’s a fun challenge. Jenny Wheeler: They’re probably around about 50,000 words are they? Michelle Major: They are, they’re about 55,000 words. They’re the shorter books. Jenny Wheeler: And your normal books would be 70,00 to 80,000? Michelle Major: Exactly, yes. Jenny Wheeler: Now, the last very important question. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you on online or offline? Michelle Major: So glad you asked that question. I do. I love interacting with readers and I am most active on Facebook @Michellemajor author and Instagram @Michellemajorbooks. I do also send out a monthly email which you could sign up for at my website, michellemajor.com, and I do exclusive contests and giveaways and bonus content. And then coming up in 2024, I will be for the second year at Readers Take Denver in April which is a huge, really fun. Last year was the inaugural year and they had over a thousand readers come for the weekend, which was amazing. And then an author named Lori Foster does a weekend in the Cincinnati area. It’s called the Lori Foster Reader Author Get Together, and I’m doing that for the first time this year. Until next time…. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. It’s nice to be able to get back out amongst people, isn’t it? Did Covid affect you very much in that regard? Michelle Major: Covid did affect me in that I had two kids in high school at the time. I felt like it didn’t affect my daily life other than the fact that my husband and my kids were around, which definitely was a big change. But also, trying to support them to have a normal teenage experience in the middle of this. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Look, it’s been wonderful talking. Michelle. Thank you so much for your time and all the very best with that future writing. Michelle Major: Thank you so much. It was so great to speak with you Michelle Major: Thank you so much. This was so fun. I enjoyed speaking with you. Jenny Wheeler: I loved your story, so that’s great. Hope you get that Bridgeton series sometime. Michelle Major: Thank you. I’ll come back on when I do If you enjoyed Michelle you might also enjoy Lucy Coleman and her recent Christmas book A Christmas Wedding in the Cotswolds… Lucy Coleman writes feel good, uplifting stories, set in beautiful locations, like Summer in Andalucía, is about a Jamie Oliver style celebrity cook fronting a TV program that sounds a lot like MasterChef. And A Christmas Wedding in the Cotswolds. What could be more festive than a winter wedding in the picturesque English countryside? Join us for Christmas in the Cotswolds with the bestselling Lucy Coleman. Imogen Tolliman and Gray Adams can’t wait to get married after getting engaged the previous year, when they were stranded by snow in a blizzard. Now they are busy planning their wedding, but when the date slips six months because Gray is working on a huge film project, it seems like fate that after their snowy start, they will end up getting married at Christmas. LISTEN TO LUCY Next week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading, Jo Thomas and more Christmas stories featuring food, love, families, and fun. Jo’s books have been described as giving readers a great big hug. She talks about her latest story. Countdown to Christmas. Chloe can’t wait for Christmas to be over. Her son, Ruben is staying with his dad and Chloe is planning to ignore the holidays altogether, but a surprise call changes everything. That’s next week on Binge Beading. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

Emily Bleeker is a best-selling author whose dual-time-line novel When We Were Enemies moves between a World War II prisoner of war camp in Indiana and the feverish fame of contemporary Hollywood in a story that was partly inspired by her own family history. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and today on Binge Reading, Emily talks about intimate betrayals made in the promise of fame and tells the remarkable story of how a serious health crisis gave her the Eureka moment when she was determined to write fiction. Now she’s an award-winning best-selling author with 2 million readers worldwide. Links to places and things mentioned in the episode Camp Atterbury https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Atterbury-Muscatatuck Operations Allies Welcome https://www.dhs.gov/allieswelcome What Emily is reading now: Terror, Love, and Brainwashing, by Alexandra Stein;   https://www.amazon.com/Terror-Love-Brainwashing-Attachment-Totalitarian/dp/1138677973 What You Do To Me by Rochelle Weinstein, https://www.rochelleweinstein.com/books/what-you-do-to-me Strong Like You by Travis (T.L.)  Simpson. https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/178619792 Where to find Emily online: Website: emilybleeker.com Email: [email protected] Introducing Book Club favorite Emily Bleeker Emily Bleeker – dual time line saga from WWII POW camp to contemporary Hollywood Jenny Wheeler: But now, here’s Emily. Hello, Emily, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Emily Bleeker: Hello, thank you for having me. Jenny Wheeler: Emily, When We Were Enemies, which is your seventh book and the one that we’re talking about today, is partly set in a POW camp, a prisoner of war camp in Indiana during World War II. And it dips into aspects of your own family history. I wondered if you’d like to start by just giving us an idea of how it all came together. Emily Bleeker: Yes, sure. It was years and years ago. My dad told me a story about how my grandmother worked in a POW camp in Mississippi, and I had no idea what he was talking about because I did not even know that was a thing. So it went in one ear and out the other. But I have just become more interested in my grandmother’s life and her story. I decided to do some research on the topic and found out that was a real thing during World War Two. And the other interesting part of that story about my grandmother is that she met an Italian priest there. She was married to my grandfather and they had a platonic friendship that continued for the rest of his life. He would draw pictures on postcards and send them to her every so often throughout the rest of his life. Italian POWs in US camps Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I must admit, I didn’t realize that that the U. S. had European prisoners of war, like Italians and Germans and people from the continent shipped to the U. S. to be put into camp. So that was a revelation to me as well. Tell me, just getting back to your grandmother, did that priest go back to Italy? Because I gather quite a few of them stayed on the states afterwards. Emily Bleeker: Yes, he did go back to Italy. He didn’t stay, though you’re right. Many did. Many joined the Italian Service Unit. More than 90 percent of the POWs joined that unit after World War II and then became a part of the U. S. Army. So doing service missions, mostly building ships and things like that. Jenny Wheeler: And I think it becomes clear in the story as you read it, if I remember correctly that Mussolini actually collapsed and the Italians more or less came over to our side before the war officially ended. A few months before perhaps the war ended, those prisoners were no longer quite the enemy, were they? Emily Bleeker: That’s very true. In fact, a lot of them were conscripted. Many times there is a tradition of hiding their sons so that they wouldn’t be conscripted into the army at that time. It really was a very conflicted. They were not conscripted. or brainwashed as the German soldiers were. There was this belief that once the Italian soldiers got on to the field, they would just start fighting and know what to do. But actually it was the opposite. They were like, “Oh my gosh, this is war.” And they ran away in a lot of cases and were like, “we don’t really want to do this. This is not really what we’re up for.” Emily’s family links to the story Jenny Wheeler: When We Were Enemies is a multi-timeline story. Part of the story is set in that POW camp, part of it is contemporary, and then there’s the middle generation between those two timelines. You’ve got three timelines running, three generations of women and two of them with special relationships with priests, one way or another. Just getting back to your grandma, was she Italian? Could she speak the language with the priest? Emily Bleeker: No, that’s where things were different. Definitely. This isn’t her story, but it was definitely inspired by her. But she did not speak Italian, so it’s interesting because they became friends without being able to speak the same language for quite some time, so they both picked up on the language, and they mostly communicated through art, so that’s why he would send her the postcards with his drawings. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. In your story, the contemporary character, Elise, her grandmother works in the POW camp, but she is of Italian heritage. She speaks the language. And so she ends up being appointed a translator, but she feels the slight a problem of being too friendly with the Italians and being accused of being a traitor herself. That obviously was not the case in your family background. Emily Bleeker: No, it was something that was more inspired by reading through newspaper articles and through other historical documents about what the feeling was at that time, and how there was this fear, we speak, there were internment camps for Japanese Americans, and there were some internment camps for Italian Americans. It was definitely not as big of a presence, but there was a fear there. I’m not Italian, but my husband is a hundred percent Sicilian. From Indiana to Hollywood I got to spend a lot of time talking with his family and what their whole experience with that wasn’t actually his, I think it was his grandfather was a POW in a camp, but the camp was in India. But they say that he came back all fattened up that he came back chubby and they were actually surprised by that fact. Jenny Wheeler: Elise is the descendant of Hollywood royalty too, because the character who starts out in the POW camp, Vivian, becomes a singer and sings on stage for the troops and ends up having quite a career in Hollywood, but Elise is not at all drawn to the idea of fame like her grandmother and mother were.  I wondered if that whole idea of fame, which has become so huge now with the Insta influencers and so forth, the Kim Kardashian’s of this world, whether that was also this was also part of what drew you to the story? Emily Bleeker: Absolutely. I think multi-generational fame and wealth can be a curse. I have to say I haven’t experienced it personally, but I definitely think that I have experienced this idea of dreaming for a book career and then getting it and realizing that life is still life. And that job that was a dream, is also still just a job, and that there are pluses and minuses to both sides. I’ve become quite interested and fascinated with that and especially with the people who reject that idea of chasing after fame, and in the story. Elise’s siblings are also famous. So she is the only one who says ‘I’m not sure I want this.’ Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And we won’t give any storylines away, but the people who want fame are so willing to almost trade anything to keep it that she feels quite betrayed in the end by some of the things that happen in the name of chasing after that prominence. The challenges of being a priest in a war Emily Bleeker: Yes. Jenny Wheeler: The other interesting question that the book raises is the difficulties and conflicts that priests may encounter, particularly in times of war. Would you like to talk a little bit about that in both generations, really? Emily Bleeker: Yes. I was raised Mormon, so I was not raised Catholic. Exploring more about Catholicism was interesting for me, but I do think that every religion has those limitations that they have to push back against and ask themselves questions about and really explore. And so when it comes down to the storyline with the priest and war, I found that there were a lot of examples of priests, especially in Italy, who made the choice to join those brothers around them and go and fight, and to serve their fellow man by being a spiritual companion. And I thought that was such an interesting take because they didn’t have to. As a priest you didn’t have to be in the army, but that many of them chose to. I found that such an interesting act of service, Jenny Wheeler: Yes, because they’re there really to serve the men around them. They’re not particularly there to fight, are they? Emily Bleeker: No, it’s about serving their fellow men. Jenny Wheeler: I gather that as part of your research, you did visit a prisoner of war camp. Tell us about that. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Camp Atterbury – 110 years of service Emily Bleeker: Yes, I actually went to Camp Atterbury. It was absolutely fascinating. Camp Atterbury is still a military base. They do have a museum that has all of the information about the POW camp, has different artifacts, and they have preserved the chapel in the meadow. I was able to go and see that, which was absolutely amazing to go and see this chapel that was built out of scrap materials, and the interesting thing about the Italians that I learned is that they were very religious. The Germans came through and were not very religious, but the Italians in almost every location that I researched made at least some attempt to create a chapel so that they could worship. which I found really interesting and beautiful. Also the US was dedicated to following the Geneva Conventions and saying, yes, we will let people have their own religion. We will follow these rules because we would like everybody else to follow these rules too. Jenny Wheeler: I gather that Camp Atterbury has recently celebrated its 110th anniversary and it still is an operative camp. Tell us a bit about what’s been happening there in the last decade. Emily Bleeker: Yes, the thing that interested me the most the funny thing is I know somebody who actually trained there for the National Guard, but I didn’t find that out until I started posting about all of this and so I talked to him about it and he said it’s actually like pretty old school. Particularly the barracks are pretty old school, but the thing that I found very interesting is that after the U. S. pulled out of Afghanistan, there was something called Operation Allies Welcome, and that meant that any refugees from Afghanistan were welcome in the United States, and Camp Atterbury was one of the places that they were housed, and then also where services were provided to rehouse them and help them start a new life in the U. S. if that’s what they wished. I found that to be a lovely parallel because just like when the Italian prisoners came, even though they were prisoners, there was an outcry in the area saying, we don’t want our enemies here. And then as they worked alongside the different people from the U. S. countrymen. They really found that they came to be able to appreciate them as people, too. There was a lot that I read about Operations Allies Welcome where the community came together. They wanted to make sure to get clothes, food, whatever they could to help out these allies, these refugees that came over from Afghanistan. The life threatening challenge that sparked writing Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. When We Were Enemies, it’s either your seventh book. You’ve sold 2 million copies and you’ve got a Wall Street Journal bestseller list to your credit. How did you actually get started on this road? Emily Bleeker: It’s a long story, so it goes far back. It goes into my 20’s, even though I didn’t think I was a writer. I was an elementary school teacher and then I was a stay at home mom. But in my 20s, I had cancer and I was given a 30 percent chance. to turn 30. And I had two little kids. And so, when I turned 30, when I made it past the five years, when I was given back all of this time that I thought potentially I could have lost, I made some goals for myself. One of them was to learn a new instrument, so I learned guitar. But there were a couple of others. One of them was to write a manuscript, and I didn’t think I would get it published at all. I just thought I would write it for myself, and that was just a goal for myself. But when I started sharing it with friends and family, they said you should try and get this published, which just opened this whole new door of challenges. I started going down the path of ‘what’s the very next step?’ That was the question I constantly asked. ‘What’s the very next step?’ I’ll do that. And then I’ll probably be done. But every time I did the very next step, I’m like, okay, I’ll try the next one. About five years altogether later, I had a publishing contract, an agent, a publishing contract, and I was a published author. It was an interesting winding road to get there. Wreckage – debut novel that was an instant hit Jenny Wheeler: How amazing. And that first manuscript, was that fiction or was it based on your previous life-threatening experiences? Emily Bleeker: It was fiction. It was Wreckage, which was my first novel Jenny Wheeler: Ah, Wreckage was a big seller in its own right, wasn’t it? And it had quite a wide scoping vision for it. Tell us about Wreckage. Emily Bleeker: Wreckage came to me while I was watching a TV show where there were only two people that were telling a story that of how they had been left on a boat after their ship sank. And there were tons of people on this raft but only two people telling the story, and they ended up being the the saviors in every story that they told. And I asked ‘what if they’re lying?’ So that was my big question I always want to say that I’m sure these poor people were not lying, but I simply asked the question, what if they were, what would somebody lie about on TV? What would they want to hide? And so that’s the story of Wreckage where you have part of it, where they’re lying. You’re lying. They’re lying in the present to the interviewer. And then you get. to flash back into the past to when they had a plane crash in South Pacific and then see what the true story was. Jenny Wheeler: They ended up on a island in the South Pacific after their plane went down. At the beginning, were there just the two of them or were there others at the beginning as well? Emily Bleeker: There were others at the beginning as Jenny Wheeler: And did those people survive to tell their story? Emily Bleeker: I don’t think I can tell you that. When I’m Gone, the second was even better Jenny Wheeler: That’s all part of the story. That’s fantastic. But that was an amazing hit for a debut novel, wasn’t it? Emily Bleeker: Yes, it did it, really to this day. My husband said to me the other day ‘what is it about Wreckage?’ It just calls to people. There’s something about it, it’s that thing that you can’t predict, with publishing and with writing, you just never know what’s going to hit people in the exact right way. And that one did. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s fantastic. Did you have to face that issue of having a brilliant first book and how on earth am I going to top this with my second and third? Did you have to go through that? Emily Bleeker: Absolutely. I was very nervous about my second novel, which is When I’m Gone. Surprisingly, When I’m Gone actually has done even better than Wreckage. I was very lucky to have that one hit twice as strong. I still, once again, don’t really know what it was about those first two, that they just really caught fire. I feel like I have a lovely fan base. They are really loyal and seem to like my overly emotional stories. I’m grateful for that. But I feel like I feel that every time. I never write a book and I’m like, ‘ah, this will be fine.’ I’m always like, ‘oh, I hope people like it.’ Jenny Wheeler: Now tell us about When I’m Gone because it also does have an amazing premise. I think you must have a gift for these high concept stories. I think that’s what they call them, the high concept books, which have got a hook which you immediately think Oh, I wonder what happens? Tell us about When I’m Gone because it’s another amazing one. A book that came out of painful life experience Emily Bleeker: When I’m Gone… as I said, I had cancer and after I had cancer, I was like, I will never watch a movie or read a book about cancer ever in my life, is too triggering. And then I wrote this book. But it was based on this idea that when my kids. were little. I had an 18 month old and a three month old when I was diagnosed with synovial sarcoma. And I was told, like I said, that I had a 30 percent chance of making it five years and I asked myself, will my children even remember me in five years, even if I made it all the way to five years, would they be able to pull up memories. And so, I started writing journals with them. It was more journals about what they were doing, and so it made me think about what does someone do when they know that potentially they could be gone soon?When I’m Gone is about a woman who wrote letters to her husband when she knew she was dying, and she planned to have them delivered for six months after her death, and it revealed a secret. Some of it was advice, but it also revealed a secret that she just felt she couldn’t tell him in real life. It covers that journey and her husband, Luke, becomes obsessed with these letters and with this secret. Jenny Wheeler: That is just amazing. Yes. Your books fall into the wider category of women’s fiction or, certainly from what you’ve now said, emotional family stories and they’re verging on domestic thrillers in some case. Have you got any thought about how you categorize them? Do you think of them in any particular niche? Emily Bleeker: I don’t, I like the general term book club fiction because then they can be just about anything. I have a hard time putting myself in one box. I think that I would lose a lot of joy writing if I just had to stick with exactly one specific subgenre. So I like that idea. It gives me a little bit of flexibility, gives me a little more freedom, and then I can come up with, my brain, honestly, is just always coming up with stuff that it’s like, how about this?How about that? So really. it’s just narrowing them down into what’s possible, what works, what I want to write too. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Emily has learned from performing improv Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Turning away from talking about the specific books to looking at your wider career. You did mention in your bio online that you enjoy performing with a local improv group. And I wondered, number one, if you tell us a little bit about that and two, if that helps in any way with your writing, I’ve got this idea that people who do improv probably are very good at doing dialogue or coming up with a quick solution to something when they put on the spot, tell us a bit about that. Emily Bleeker: I started doing improv because it was one of those goals was to get back on stage. I hadn’t been on stage since I was a teenager. And so one of my goals in my thirties was to get back on stage. I started taking classes and after I took all the classes, I auditioned for the team and it’s just snowballed from there. And then I married an improviser. So now we both are very busy on stage and off stage. At first I thought improv had nothing to do with writing. And if you want to know the truth, the first time I went to a class, I used my maiden name. I didn’t use my – what was my married name before I was divorced – at the time, but still, I didn’t use my author name. I because I was like, I don’t want anyone to know I’m a writer. I just want them to see me come in and just be a blank slate because I felt intimidated by it all. I felt like that it’s so different coming up with something standing on the stage in front of an audience than behind my computer screen. But as time has gone on, I’ve realized that it helps me immensely. I draft far faster and cleaner now. I’m able to get my head into a place where it’s like improvising on the page, and I think writing helps me as an improviser too. It helps me understand plot and storyline and tension. It’s interesting now. I’m starting to see myself more as like a creative person rather than just a writer or just an actor or just a musician, but like more like. someone who just is creative What is the one thing Emily credits with her success? Jenny Wheeler: And you did mention in those goals that you were talking about, learn a new instrument. So, you were already a musical person, it sounds like, so what do you play? Emily Bleeker: I learned piano when I was young. I’m not very great at it, but I do sing, so I’m going to count that as another instrument too. So that’s probably the main thing that I enjoy doing. I do it for fun with karaoke, but I also do musical improv on stage as well. Jenny Wheeler: And that’s with a guitar. Emily Bleeker: Sometimes. My husband sometimes will use his ukulele, but I am more likely to use piano. Jenny Wheeler: If there was one thing that you would credit with your career success, and sounds like this might be difficult for you because it’s been amazing the way that you’ve pulled it all together, but if there was one thing, what would it be, do you think, to account for your success? One, either talent or character trait? Emily Bleeker: I will say resilience. It’s just to keep going, I think that you can look at someone’s career and think that it’s a trajectory all going up. But honestly, every has the ups and downs and it has some hills and some valleys and I definitely have had those. And it’s just this mindset of trying to not take it personally, trying to make goals that are reachable goals and then focusing on those rather than some big thing, like I want to be on the New York Times bestseller list. Of course, everybody wants that. But what I really want to do is finish my next chapter. And now I want to finish half of my book. And now I want to finish all of my book. I think that’s what keeps me going and gets me going through it all. It is just always taking that next step. What Emily Bleeker is reading now Jenny Wheeler: We also always like to ask our authors about their reading tastes because this is a popular fiction show and so we usually are talking about books that you’d read for entertainment or relaxation or even escapism. Do you read for those purposes and what are you reading at the moment that you’d like to recommend? Emily Bleeker: Mostly, I read really heavy non-fiction. I just finished a book called Terror, Love, and Brainwashing about cults, like about cult thinking. But I have always loved fiction. I love literature. I love classic literature. But I also love just about any fiction. I just read What You Do To Me by Rochelle Weinstein. I just read Strong Like Me that’s by Travis Simpson. That’s a young adult book. I do read popular fiction, but I really love nonfiction right now. And I think it’s just because I live, my brain lives in fiction so much, so I’m like, I want to get some real stuff. I’ll make up some stuff, but I do love supporting other writers. Most of what I read are writers who we share, our books with each other and I really enjoy that. I enjoy seeing what they’ve created. Jenny Wheeler: Do you have to read much in terms of research for your own books? As soon as you said Terror, Love, and Brainwashing, I thought, Oh, maybe you’re going to be doing something about cults in one of your books. Emily Bleeker: I would absolutely love to, but this one, no. I’ve just finished once and I’m editing right now. I’ve got some books under my desk that I’ve been referring to. What I just wrote is a companion book to When We Were Enemies. This is about Hollywood, old Hollywood. And I have three others under here too that I was holding my computer up with. I do a lot of reading research for books. For this book, I also watched a lot of YouTube videos of old videos or stock videos a lot of documentaries. I do a lot of research. Especially with historical fiction, it gets my brain in the right place. A companion piece and a follow up story Jenny Wheeler: And so tell us about that book. Is that a fictional novel? That’s like a second, a sequel to When We Were Enemies? Emily Bleeker: Yes, I’m calling it a companion piece. I think that’s what we’re calling it. It’s Vivian Snow’s story. Vivian Snow, who you only get her pre famed story in When We Were Enemies. And then, she has passed away in the present timeline. This is her whole, the rest of her life story. So it is her becoming famous, the rest of her complicated relationship with Trumbello, everything that comes after that. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s great. Because there is quite a gap there that there’s lots of details about what happens there that you don’t really get to know in that first book. So sounds fantastic. And when is that coming out? Emily Bleeker: That’s going to come out next late summer. I don’t think it has an official date yet. We are about to announce it, I think, tomorrow. You’re getting a little spoiler here. Jenny Wheeler: And so, we’ll know by the time this is posted, we’ll know the title. Emily Bleeker: Right now, the working title is When We Dared to Dream. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. And how did that one come about? Was it a publisher saying this would be an obvious thing to do? Or did you feel Bye. Bye. Oh, there’s so much about Vivian. Yeah. Emily Bleeker: I loved Elise’s story.. I feel like we got to a place where we feel comfortable with her story. Vivian’s story, I feel like it was beautiful, but there was so much more there, and I knew that I was going to write her story, whether someone wanted to publish it or not. I started writing it and I asked my agent, what do you think? Do you think this is a possibility? She reads some of it and says  ‘I love Vivian’s story. Let’s give it a shot. And immediately. My publisher was like, Yes, we need this story.’ Which made me very happy because I just like I knew there was going to be a question about what Vivian’s the rest of it. I’ve been asked for every book I’ve written, if I’m writing a sequel, every single one and this is the only one that I look at and I’m like, This one I definitely know needs more. Jenny Wheeler: Do you get attached to your characters? What Emily Bleeker wishes she knew then Emily Bleeker: Normally by the time I’m done with a book, I’m pretty much done with my characters. But I feel like with this book, it was two storylines. And though it was two books together, I didn’t get tired of it. I didn’t get tired of Vivian. I’m still not tired of Vivian. I won’t tell you what happens in the book, I’m not going to be writing anymore, but I just liked her as a person, and I found her story really compelling. She really came alive for me. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your creative career you’d change, what would it be? Emily Bleeker: I Think that I would have protected my writing time more back years ago. I feel like I’m doing better now, but also my kids are older. I think that I knew it was a career, but it’s also hard to call it your career. Like it, this is my job, this is my job. I pay the bills with my writing, but it just is so hard to protect it as such when you’re writing from home. Like during COVID, I had my kids here learning next to me on their computers the whole time. I still don’t know exactly how I could have done it, but I think I would go back and figure out how to give myself permission to treat writing.as my career earlier on, Jenny Wheeler: And of course, before you’ve actually got to that point where you’re earning, it still is almost a temptation to regard it as a hobby and in a way it almost protects you that if you don’t earn money from it, you won’t feel you’re a failure too. Emily Bleeker: I don’t. And I, you know what? I love that. Thank you for saying that because I don’t think you have to earn money to be a writer. I wish maybe that’s what I should say is I wish I had realized I was a writer a long time ago because I didn’t let myself call myself a writer out loud until I had an agent, even while I was querying, even after I’d written a manuscript, I felt very shy about calling myself a writer. And I do wish that I had been bolder with that and believed in myself a little bit more. Never Miss out! 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} On Emily’s desk: The next 12 months Jenny Wheeler: Yell us what you’ve got on your desk for the next 12 months. What’s Emily as author looking at over the next 12 months? Emily Bleeker: I am finishing the edits on this book, which will probably take me until the beginning of the new year. Plus, When We Were Enemies is about to launch in December. We’ve got all of the promo stuff for that. And then we have the new book next year. And then I have to decide what I’m going to do next. There are some big decisions to make. What, especially now that I’ve finished two books that are from the same storyline from the same era to what are we going to go to next? And I don’t have that answer yet. Jenny Wheeler: are you one of those people who keep a notebook with all sorts of thoughts in it about what you could do next? Emily Bleeker: Yes. And I have so many ideas I want to do. And the hard thing is knowing, because especially when you’re pitching, you’re dedicating time to writing a proposal, a synopsis, 50 pages, like that’s an investment of work and time. And I try to be pretty careful about which one, but that doesn’t mean that you always get that one picked. I’ve definitely had proposals turned down before, so it’s hard. It’s hard to assess that, but I’m really enjoying historical fiction. I’m really enjoying, getting immersed in a different time period I’m thinking that’s what we’re going to keep doing. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you either online or in person? Emily Bleeker: I love connecting with my readers. I really do. It’s actually one of the great unexpected joys of being an author, is getting mail from people, getting emails. I just am blown away by the way that people can respond to something that like I wrote on my couch, I’m like, Oh, Like I think it’s beautiful. So I love it. I have a website, emilybleeker. com. You can email me, you can get all of my social media through there. On social media, I’m pretty easy to get in touch with. My email is just [email protected] And in person, I’m all over the place right now. I have a book launch in December, so that’s going to be in Chicago, so I have an improv show that we’re going to be doing as my book launch and I’ve got all of the information about where things are is on all my social media and my website as well if people want to come on out, because, I’m also going to Indiana. I’m excited about that. I’m going to go to Indiana and do a book signing out there. Right close to Camp Atterbury. So that’ll be cool too. Emily Bleeker loves Zooming with Book Clubs Jenny Wheeler: Great. And I gather you also do quite a bit of book club stuff or you provide information and questions for book clubs, don’t you? Emily Bleeker: I do. I don’t think I have my questions up for this book yet, but I do. And I love zooming in with book clubs. I absolutely love connecting like that. If people reach out to me through my website, also they can sign up for my newsletter to get information about when things are happening too. If people reach out to me through my email or website or social media, usually, as long as we can make it all work. I love zooming in on those. Jenny Wheeler: That’s beautiful. Look, thanks so much for your time, Emily. It’s been great talking and you talk about resilience. Honestly, you blow me away with your resilience. Emily Bleeker: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. And thanks for having me. You’ve been a delight. You’re fun to talk to. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. Thanks so much. Emily Bleeker: Thank you. If you enjoyed Emily you might also enjoy.. Lily Graham’s Dual timeline dramas… Lily Graham’s dual timeline fiction always finds hope in heartbreak – a result she says of being inspired by people who overcome adversity to pursue their dreams. It’s something Lily had to learn to do very early in her own life. LISTEN TO LILY Next week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading, we’re entering the Christmas season with a series of bright and lively reads from Christmas story experts. First up as Michelle Major and The Christmas Cabin, an endearing second chance romance. Laura and Ben were married briefly as youngsters. But it didn’t work out. Now in the weeks before Christmas, they are meeting again on their old home ground years later, but so much has changed in the meantime. That’s next week on Binge Reading. Just before I go a reminder, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading

Darry Fraser writes bestselling, empowering feminist historicals that put women back in the Australian story. Her latest book, her twelfth novel is called The Milliner of Bendigo. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And today on the show, Darry talks about her fascination with the contribution women have made in every generation, whether recognized or not. And how in all of the books she somehow had the story sparked by a personal or family connection. Links to items highlighted in this episode Darry Fraser and Arnott’s Christmas Tin: https://www.darryfraser.com/the-drover-comes-homes-for-christma Candice Fox, The Chase, https://www.candicefox.org/ Jodi Taylor, Chronicles of St. Mary’s series; https://joditaylor.online/ Rachael Mead, The Art of Breaking Ice https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/152232958 Kate Grenville, A Room Made Of Leaves; https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/50993145-a-room-made-of-leaves Where to find Darry Fraser online Website: www.darryfraser.com Facebook: @darryfraserbooks Instagram: @darryfraser  And that’s the housekeeping over.  Here’s our guest for this week. Darry Fraser. Introducing author Darry Fraser Darry Fraser – historical fiction that restores women’s place in history Jenny Wheeler: Hello there Darry and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Darry Fraser: Oh, thank you, Jenny. Thanks so much for having me. Jenny Wheeler: Darry, you’re a best-selling author, some of your books have reached the Top 100 lists in Australia. And you write “empowering feminist adventures.” That’s the way you like to describe them. They’re all historicals as well. So tell us, what do you like about writing feminist adventure stories? Darry Fraser: The first thing I hear quite a lot, especially when I’m doing library talks or bookstore events or something is, ‘Gee, all your leading ladies are well ahead of their time.’ and so on and so forth. And I had to have a think about and about that and address that women back in the day were just like you and I are in our 21st century, except they had greater restrictions on what they were allowed to do by law or within the family or whatever. But I don’t believe that too many women were just wimps. I think they had as strong a personality as people you might meet today. But what fascinated me was how they maintained their own strength and their feminist, – and we’re not talking feminazis here, we’re talking feminists  – being your own true self, within the restrictions that they came across. And… I think when you step back in time, which is basically what I do, and I love doing that, you find these people dotted throughout history, because we don’t often have a great glimpse of the ordinary person’s day-to-day life. Finding fascinating historical stories That glimpse of strength comes through, and we’re finding more and more stories about let’s say Australian and New Zealand women who did their own thing within the confines of society’s rules and regulations. And that’s what fascinates me. Jenny Wheeler: Where do you look for those kinds of stories or how do you find them? Because as we know, even the written record that women left behind is often less valued than the male record left behind. Darry Fraser: Yes, that’s true. I think especially with those sorts of written records you and I today might be able to read between the lines. They did have to be careful what they wrote. Certainly, that’s just it, what they wrote. I find them in digitized newspapers at Trove. The National Library of Australia digitizes all our newspapers, and often I’ll go to the classifieds or the little articles that the local papers might publish, and there’ll be snippets of women’s lives. They might be having a. a swipe at somebody. They might be interested in having a gentleman friend. There’s all sorts of things that you can pick up in the tiny wee little bits of lives that were detailed or featured if you like in some of the newspapers. I don’t know if you have that sort of thing in New Zealand, but it’s an invaluable resource over here. And the other thing I think is that because I’m tuned in to this sort of thing, I can see it quite clearly. wherever I might go. If I’m in a bookstore, or at another author’s talk, or listening to a podcast or something, there’s just a little bit there I can drag out and tease into something that I might be able to chase down. The Milliner of Bendigo – Darry’s 12th novel Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. The latest book, the one that we’re particularly focusing on today is The Milliner of Bendigo and it’s your 12th book. You’ve got a very good, strong backlist there. How did you get started on this? And did you write historical fiction right from the beginning? Darry Fraser: Gee, how long have we got on that one? When I was quite a lot younger, I lived in Alice Springs in the centre of the country. I had always grown up with stories read to me by my mum. And then when TV arrived, we were inundated with historical Western serials and things like that. And even as a young child, I thought, where are our stories? Where are our stories? I learned history at school, which was mind numbingly boring, Australian history at school. And I thought, there’s no excitement here. Where’s the excitement? Anyway, I had lived for five years on the Murray River in a town called Swan Hill, and the river just fascinated me, so by the time I was old enough to travel on my own and got to Alice Springs, I thought I may as well do the thing that I’ve always wanted to do. I’m getting on, anyhow I wrote the greatest novel ever known to man at that time only to have a bit of a knock, or quite a hefty knock. I felt I had to put that manuscript away in the undies drawer for quite a long time. In 2016, I thought, you know what, it really is now and ever, because that was 33 years later. I dusted it off again, and submitted it in a pitch. And it was published as Daughter of the Murray in 2016. The journey through to publication was a long one. But not necessarily one that I slogged away at all those years. But the time was right for the Australian story set in fiction, historical fiction to have its day. Being a gay man in 19th century Australia I think I was just fortunate enough to be at the right place in the right time. Jenny Wheeler: The Milliner of Bendigo traces not just the story of a solo businesswoman who is trying to make her way against some very tough social circumstances, but also presents us with Fitz, who is a very self-aware gay man. He knows that he likes men better than women. He doesn’t talk about this much to anybody. He keeps it very secret and he’s almost faced with that challenge that some people even still in our own time are – to marry, even though he knows marriage isn’t really for him -just to keep his social cover. And that also is what almost a more perilous social situation to be in than a single woman without family connections and it was brave of you to introduce him. Is this the first time you’ve had a gay man in your work? Darry Fraser: Specifically, if you like, that he’s come out. I’ve indicated before. It’s a well-known fact that we’re all made up of a jumble of different things over the centuries. What’s accepted as right and what’s accepted as wrong changes, as the decades and the centuries go by. But I felt it was important for me to work in a gay character because it’s a little like other things we tend to shy away from. They were there, and we can’t ignore the fact that they were there. But  Fitz’s story is important, I think, because he has interacted with his straight male friend and he’s got a straight female friend and he’s trying to navigate around what he should and shouldn’t do. And I really wanted to showcase from an ordinary person’s point of view, how difficult it might’ve been for people like that. I think in some circles, for instance, Oscar Wilde, he had his own circle of people who understood who he was and he’d found his tribe and so on and so forth. But somebody took a dislike to that and he knew he could be in great trouble. From a legal point of view, it did have to be kept well under wraps. And I presume a lot of gay people would have married just to stay under cover. Widows as vulnerable as gay men Jenny Wheeler: Yes, absolutely. I’ve seen recent movies set in Asia and China where in those cultures, it still is very much something that people will conceal because of social shame. One of the highlights of the story relates to plot lines related to the law that was in place at that time, that if someone died without a will, their property reverted to public domain and then people could come along and snap it up for a bargain basement sort of price. This is one of the storylines that’s going in The Milliner of Bendigo. I’m not quite sure how long ago that law was canceled, but guess it particularly put vulnerable people like widows at risk, didn’t it? Darry Fraser: It certainly would. The particular part of the story you’re referring to there, refers to government grants of land, if you like. We call them over here settlers or closer settlements where the land was opened up by the government and basically leased for a fee to the leasee. And if the rent payments defaulted the government basically took the land back. But the other part of that is that in around 1878, the Married Women’s Property Act came into being in British law, which covered Australian, I’m presuming New Zealand law at the same time, where if a woman came to a marriage with her own property, it could then stay in her name and not be taken over by her husband. Invariably it would have been and how many women would have known that that they could keep that? But also, the thing was that if in the day, if their husband didn’t stipulate that their wife, their widow could administer the property, then she had to appeal to the courts that she was the legal wife and that she should be able to administer the property that she had married into.  So yes, it seems like it’s a long time ago, 1878, 1880, 1890. It’s not really. It’s just a hundred and a bit years ago. And whilst we’ve come a long way, I think there’s still a lot of people don’t understand their rights around marriage and property and this sort of thing when they go into it. I keep my eye on that in my stories because it definitely plays a big part in how the characters go forward. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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that happened to you, something in your ancestral past or something in your surrounding personal history. And I wondered what the factor in The Milliner of Bendigo was for you. Darry Fraser: I live in South Australia, as you might know, and I love returning to Victoria where I was born and bred. So I’ve got The Milliner of Bendigo firmly in my head, but I know she’s got to go back to the river. So there’s a couple of things here. My maternal grandmother was a milliner in the … I’m going to say the 1920s. And whilst I never saw any of her own creations, I knew that she. really did love a good hat. I thought that was important employment for women in the day, they could look after their own fashion; basically, if they were a good craftsperson and good with needle and thread and with fabric and so on and so forth. And so for a woman to have her own business, she may very well have been at a printing press, but I didn’t find too many instances of that. I think a milliner speaks to femininity and craft and diligence. I drew on Grandma Lena’s work a little, and of course the river features once again, so I can’t seem to separate my stories from the river not for a great distance anyway. Jenny Wheeler: I also got the feeling that you liked writing about outsiders, because a couple of your other books, one’s called The Bush Ranger, one’s called The Prodigal Sister. There’s that feeling of people who are outside the normal limits of society. And I wondered if that was an attraction for you and whether you also had a sense of wanting justice for those sorts of people. Beating down society’s walls Darry Fraser: The Elsa Goody Bush Ranger was a young woman whose last family member has just died and she lives on the family farm and she knows perfectly well that the powers that be are going to take it away from her unless she can find the money to keep it going. Whilst she sounds like an outsider, she desperately needs to keep her own place and to be able to look after herself. With The Prodigal Sister… In the very late 1890s women were allowed to undertake the same type of Bachelor of Arts as the men. Prior to that, they were two different Bachelor of Arts degrees, but by the late 1880s and 90s – into the very early 1900s women could study these things that had previously only allowed men to get into university to and go on to medicine and science and so on. So Prudence in The Prodigal Sister thought that because her father was a doctor and now she could undertake this Bachelor of Arts study, she would do that because she was allowed to, without realizing that once you step out of St. Andrews in Scotland and return home to colonial Melbourne, things would look very different. And she suffers a sense of bewilderment. Why is it only my gender that precludes me from doing these things? As far as outsiders go, I think it’s, for me, it’s a case of why not? Why can’t I? And I guess in my own life, I have experienced that sort of thing. Now, I must admit, I was never brought up with the idea that I couldn’t or shouldn’t. And so when things occurred to me, I always questioned it. And I guess that’s how I approached those two stories. Women pressured to choose marriage Jenny Wheeler: The Prodigal Sister, did you see examples at that time of women who trained in Edinburgh and then came back to Australia and found it very hard to fit in? Was there a basis of a story there that you read about somewhere? Darry Fraser: Only the fact that women had been trying to get into universities in Melbourne. Particularly Melbourne, for some time and that the very few of them who went for it, so to speak, indicated that there would have been pressure not to do that. And of course, if you wanted to study, and you were one eyed about it. It was very difficult to do that as a married woman because babies might very well pop out every year and that wasn’t going to work. Women were pressured to stay away and if they weren’t pressured to stay away, they generally found themselves remaining unmarried, which they may very well have preferred. One woman comes to mind. She was a well-educated woman, Vida Goldstein, and she was a suffragist at that time. And while she didn’t study medicine, she made the decision to remain a single woman so that she could do the work she wanted to do. She knew that family responsibilities would take over. So it was it was a juggling act and you had to be very determined to get through in a man’s world, if you like. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. That does raise the interesting question. Have you used real people in your stories and how do you balance fact and fiction when you are dealing with real lives? Some women chose to remain single Darry Fraser: I do use real people in my stories. And sometimes they’re local people from the local papers that nobody else in the world would know. Again, Vida Goldstein, she had a cameo in I think one of my books in particular. I don’t ever try to, but I’m not an historian, so I don’t ever try to learn about them per se. I know what they’ve done, how they’ve contributed to society. And I just try to take a view that they would have been normal people with a particular interest in an issue and that they were determined and one eyed. If I’m portraying real people, then I stick to the facts about who they were and what they did and then just try to work around what their character might have looked like. One particular man in The Last True Heart he was – his name escapes me at the moment – but he was a newspaper editor in the Victorian city or township at the time of Geelong. And he was a very great defender of the up and coming constitution in Australia. I had to try and figure out who he was as a man and how determined he was to do what he needed to do. I don’t think I’ve stepped on anybody’s toes, but I was contacted by his great grandson, wanting to know if I had any more information about him. Those sort of things I think bring the story to the people in the local area that might be reading it and they can say oh, you know He was one of our characters, but I don’t really try to put words in their mouth Jenny Wheeler: Because we’re coming up to Christmas, I thought it would be fun to mention your two Christmas books. The Driver Comes for Christmas…. Darry Fraser: and then driver’s brother. Jenny Wheeler: I wonder how did those come about and were they popular with readers? Australian Christmas stories Darry Fraser: The Driver Comes For Christmas came about the day my publisher asked me would I do a novella for Christmas? And you knew it had to be set in history. For years and years, I had always loved a painting by Jack Waugh from 1964. He was a graphic artist, but did some painting. And he had a drover on his haunches by the campfire with Santa Claus in full red and white with the reindeer on one side of the picture and a Kelpie dog staring at the reindeer. on the other side of the picture. I was a picture that just brought everything about the Australian Christmas story to me. I had to research Christmas in Australia and the red suited Santa Claus. And he was a bit later than my stories are set. The red suited Santa Claus and Rudolph, for instance came about with Coca Cola after 1921. So I tried to come up with a story that would fit the Australian Outback scene with a Santa Claus who was trying to get the people in the day into the spirit of the thing and poor old Santa in the story is just dressed in dungarees and his braces and he’s got a mad character Alf by his side. I wanted to bring that whole childlike innocence of Christmas back again by, by depicting what it would have been like in the 1890s in Australia. They only knocked off work for half a day to have Christmas lunch. It wasn’t a big deal with thousands of dollars spent or pounds spent at the shops for presents and so on and so forth. And Christmas magic. I love Christmas magic. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} How Darry Fraser celebrates Christmas Jenny Wheeler: Tell us a bit about that, because the Aussie Christmas, obviously, and the New Zealand Christmas, is quite different from the Christmas in the Northern Hemisphere. You see this reflected in the woman’s fiction. Christmas books have become very popular, but mostly they are stories about snow and sleigh bells and those kinds of scenes are created. What do you particularly enjoy yourself about Aussie Christmas? How do you celebrate Christmas Day? Darry Fraser: Generally, it’s a barbecue or lots and lots of seafood. Prawns and crayfish and so on. And it’s generally – especially if in my situation you could have a quote unquote “Orphan’s Christmas” where a group of friends who don’t have family around get together and it’s a shared meal. Someone will bring the trifle, someone will bring the salad, someone will bring the prawns whatever it might be. And it’s generally, a wee glass of champagne just as everyone arrives and then mostly a big snooze in the afternoon before everyone goes home. Jenny Wheeler: That painting that you were mentioning, just reverting to that for a moment, I think you mentioned somewhere that it ended up on an Arnott’s biscuit tin, didn’t it? And you have a picture of it somewhere and it is the most marvelously nostalgic kind of painting. And I thought to myself, I bet those biscuit tins, probably you only find them in second hand shops these days. Would that be right? The famous Arnott’s Christmas tins Darry Fraser: That’s absolutely correct. I’m looking at two of them now that I’ve found here and there online and they’re very rare in the shops now because they were always a limited edition. I did find a third one, which I made a prize for somebody on my Facebook page. And I still look at that and see something different in it every time and you’re right, it’s quite nostalgic and it’s something that, gee, I would love to experience in the bush sitting around the campfire and suddenly Santa appears. How good would that be? Jenny Wheeler: Just turning away from the books to talk about your wider career, if there’s one thing that’s been the secret of your success in your creative career, what would it be? Darry Fraser: Oh, I guess that I’m a little bit one eyed about what I do and these days, because I took so long to get here, I’m sticking with it. But the other thing is I have found that my stories relate more to the ordinary person who’s just going about their lives doing ordinary things and all facets of their lives are clearly important to them as they are to you and me and I think my stories must relate to the modern day reader somehow. Jenny Wheeler: And do you have any idea how that is? I was interested earlier when you said you felt you’d really arrived at the right time where people were ready to read Australian historical fiction. And there has been a terrific flowering of Australian historical fiction in the last decade, hasn’t there? A lot of it written by women. Darry Fraser: That’s right. I guess if we’re talking vintage of the authors when I was at school, as I previously mentioned, I wanted to study Australian history, but it was mind numbingly boring. When I dug a little deeper, I was able to see that it wasn’t boring at all, but I wanted to bring those stories forward. And I think with regard to fiction set in history, in this case, Australian history there was a shying away of who we were as a country or people. And lately it’s become ‘come on, own what’s going on. Get on with it, do the right thing and embrace the whole lot.’ What Darry Fraser is reading now Suddenly, instead of shying away from the Australian character, culture or psyche, we have decided that ‘Warts and all. here we are’ and we want to learn more about it. I’ve had such a lot of lovely readers say to me. “I didn’t know that had happened. I didn’t know that occurred. When I read that I researched it myself.” I’m finding these lovely bits and pieces in our past in Australia’s past that we can be happy about we can take pride in and I think that’s where I’m coming from. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. We always like to ask our authors about their own reading habits and whether they’ve got anything they’d like to recommend to the listeners. And we’re talking here really about books that you read for entertainment, for relaxation, for escapism. Do you read books for those purposes? And could you recommend any? Darry Fraser: Absolutely. But my reading is eclectic. I read across all genres except historical fiction. And I love thrillers. I’m in the midst of an older one of Candice Fox’s at the moment called The Chase, which I’m enjoying. I love the concept of time travel, but it can’t be too weird or too out there. Although I suppose it is in a sense. I read and will read again, Jodi Taylor’s Chronicles of St. Mary’s. That was a fascinating, wonderful ride into the past with a number of paleontologists and archaeologists, believe it or not, but it was great fun. another local South Australian author, Rachael Mead, wrote a wonderful novel called The Art of Breaking Ice. The title was fantastic too because it’s about an artist, a visual artist by the name of Nell Law who in the 1960s was smuggled onto one of the Antarctica Explorer boats. Her husband was the captain of the ship and she was the first Australian woman to land at Mawson at that time. That was a fascinating read. There are too many to mention. Probably I’ll read just about anything as long as I can click with the author’s style of work. There’s a few that have come to mind. A historical writer who doesn’t read the genre Jenny Wheeler: Thank you. I often use these as a starting off point for looking and seeing if they’re likely to be good for the podcast. It’s always good to get these suggestions. You mentioned not historical fiction. Why don’t you read historical fiction? I can guess, but I’d like to hear what you Darry Fraser: Yeah, I think for me I don’t want to, anybody else’s voice to seep into my own when I’m in that, I’ll call it historical zone. So if I’ve read for instance Kate Grenfell’s A Room Made of Leaves, a wonderful book set much earlier in colonial Australia with about Mrs. MacArthur. Certainly Kate Grenfell’s style is far different to mine, but I was fascinated to see how she worked the story because she was one of the authors who indicated that when women wrote letters, there were hidden meanings in the, between the lines. But reading historical fiction I might find a snippet in there that, oh, that looks nice and then think, oops, that might be stepping on toes. It’s to do with being careful and it’s to do with keeping my authentic voice. And I’ll talk about that in the third person, Darryl Fraser’s authentic story voice. Jenny Wheeler: I can see that if you’ve got a story idea from someone else, you might think, Oh, maybe they want to write that story. That you feel as if you might be stealing some of their intellectual property almost. Darry Fraser: I guess in a sense you, I want to try and keep as unique a style or and plot and setting and theme as I can, but I was contacted very recently by another author who said, Oh I want to do a series called the daughters of a such and I thought daughter is a very common word. We’re all someone’s daughter. (Editor note: One of Darry’s best-sellers in Daughter of the Murray check) It was to do with the river system in Australia, and I said I don’t have any property rights to those things, titles or rivers or anything else, so go for it, I think it’s a case of just watching what you’re doing and remaining authentic. What’s next for Darry as author Jenny Wheeler: What is next for Darry as author over the next 12 months. Looking at your future year, what have you got on your desk or what are you working on? Darry Fraser: I’ve probably got three, no I haven’t. I’m just looking at the date. I’ve got less than two weeks to submit next year’s work, which was scheduled for 2025, but the publisher asked to bring that story forward. So that one’s nearly done. That one, once again, is set on the river system to do with, uh, a major strike that occurred in the 1890s in the eastern states of Australia. And it sounds like it’s very blokey, so I thought if it’s blokey, where do I find the women? That’s what I did research for, and that was fascinating research. The book that will now come out, or hopefully 2025, because we authors still have to submit our work before it’s accepted by our publishers is already done and finished. But of course, I’ll be able to revisit that and polish it up and re edit before I submit it next November. And after that, not sure. Not sure. Jenny Wheeler: Gosh, you’re working well ahead, aren’t you? Darry Fraser: Yes, there was a time when I was contracted two books a year. but at that very same time COVID struck and my contracts were reverted to single stories a year. So I did have that extra one up my sleeve going forward. And that’s The Milliner of Bendigo as a matter of fact. I’d love to do more a year. So possibly I’ll look at doing more novella type. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Where to find Darry Fraser online Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Darry Fraser: My website is a start. Www.Darryfraser.com. And then on Facebook, it’s Darry Fraser Books, and I think there’d only be one Darry Fraser books there. And on Insta Darry Fraser, and I’m more than happy to connect with readers. After all. they’re the people I do all this for and I’m loving it. I love how I can connect with them on some level whether it’s where they live or what their grandma did or all sorts of things. One of the highlights of last year’s book, The Fourth White Woman, was two people from completely different areas of the country popped out of the woodwork and it turns out we’re third cousins, each of us. Those lovely connections from readers that are so special. So yes, I enjoy interacting. Jenny Wheeler: Thank you so much for giving us your time when you’ve got a deadline coming up. That’s most selfless. Darry Fraser: That’s called ‘what else can I do before I have to do this?’ But this has been absolutely lovely, Jenny. Thank you so much for having me. Jenny Wheeler: You’re very welcome. Thanks so much. Bye Darry Fraser: Bye bye. If you enjoyed Darry you might also enjoy Tea Cooper’s Come Alive Aussie Histories Best selling Australian author Tea Cooper lives in a time warp – a postcard-perfect village two hours from Sydney with 19th-century sandstone buildings, and timber slab cottages which leave you feeling you could be back in the 1830s. Hi there, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today Tea talks about how her surroundings inspire … Continue readingTea Cooper – Aussie History Comes Alive LISTEN TO TEA COOPER Next Week on Binge Reading Emily Bleeker and a US based dual timeline story beginning in an Indiana prisoner of war camp during World War Two. I’ve never really thought about the prisoners of war from Italy and Germany who ended up staying in America. And Emily has uncovered a fascinating story that originates there. That’s next week on The Joys of Binge Reading. A little reminder. You can help defray the costs of putting on the show, with now close to its 300th episode, by buying me a coffee at www.buymeacoffee.com/jennywheelx And also: Leave us a review so others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

Jim Eldridge had a stellar career writing for TV and radio before he turned to World War II and late 19th century historical mysteries which demonstrate all the page-turning immediacy of the TV shows he cut his teeth on. Hi there, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler. And on this week’s Joys of Binge Reading podcast, Jim talks about growing up on a London bomb site and staying ahead in an ever-changing publishing world. Links to things mentioned in this episode: The Line of Kings (Tower of London): https://www.hrp.org.uk/tower-of-london/whats-on/line-of-kings/ Girton College, Cambridge: https://www.girton.cam.ac.uk/ Churchill’s War Room: https://www.iwm.org.uk/visits/churchill-war-rooms Down St Station:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Down_Street_tube_station The House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Saxe-Coburg_and_Gotha The Blind Beggar pub: https://www.theblindbeggar.com/ Salvation Army founder, William Booth: https://www.christianitytoday.com/history/people/activists/william-booth.html The Kray Brothers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kray_twins Dennis May Wilson: https://www.comedy.co.uk/features/comedy_chronicles/dennis-main-wilson/ Georges Simeon: (Maigret author) https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/9693.Georges_Simenon Maigret:  https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/series/IMA/inspector-maigret Ed McBain:  (real name Evan Hunter)  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Hunter Peter Davison:  https://www.rottentomatoes.com/celebrity/peter_davison V2s:  https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/the-terrifying-german-revenge-weapons-of-the-second-world-war Where to Find Jim online: Website:  https://www.jimeldridge.com/ Email: Contact form on Jim’s website. Introducing mystery author Jim Eldridge Jim Eldridge – historical mystery author and TV script writer But now here’s Jim. Hell, Jim and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Jim Eldridge: It’s fantastic to be here Jenny and thank you for inviting me on. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve had a fascinating varied career with a very large amount of experience in TV before you set about doing your fiction writing with your historical mysteries. We’re going to be focusing on those historical mysteries and two of your most recent books, Murder at the Tower of London, which is #9 in the Museum Murder series, and Murder at Down Street Station, which is #5 in the World War II mysteries. Tell me, what made you change from doing TV to writing historical mysteries? Jim Eldridge: I think actually what happened was I had my first show on in 1971, which is a long time ago. And over the years, things changed at the broadcasting. I wrote for British, Irish, and American television, TV and radio. It’s about almost who you know, and towards the end – I think I did my last script in 2010 and it struck me that the business had changed. Streaming had come in. When I first started writing for TV over here, (in the UK) there were only three channels. That was it. BBC One, BBC Two, and ITV. So if you had an idea, it was going to go out on that. But now, there are so many streaming channels. And you need to know who it is who’s taking the decisions. And unfortunately for me, most of my producers had by then retired. The commissioners I knew had retired, so the whole industry had changed. I was faced with going out and saying to people, I’ve got this idea of what you want me to do. Writing on the wall – Pivoting to a new career But by that time, of course, I was in my early 70s. And most of the broadcasters were looking for what they would call “young and diverse” talent. And I really didn’t fit that. The reason I’ve survived so long in this business is because I’ve always been a great one for looking ahead. Seeing where there’s going to be a problem and then moving into another one. I went from radio to television from comedy to drama and so on and on books as well. Seeing what’s happening because when you’re dealing with a company, and I’ve written for some of the biggest publishers, you never know when suddenly there’s going to be some kind of main corporate move and suddenly all the previous authors are no longer required. So that was it. I think I saw what was happening and I thought this is the time to move into books. I’d already had quite a few children’s books written, but that’s what struck me. Jenny Wheeler: And tell me what did you learn in TV that you brought across your fiction writing? Jim Eldridge: Very much that rather than coming in and saying, “This is what I want to do,” learning with publishers. Asking questions like ‘What are you looking for? What is your readership?’ Because if you wanted to write, I’ll use the example of hardcore porn or something. You don’t go for one who does regency romances. When I had a meeting with my current publishers, first of all, it’s checking their list to see what kind of stuff they did, what was popular on their list. Then I could go along and meet them and talk to them and really pitch ideas or characters, which is what I did. I’ve written for lots of other people’s shows. It’s not only the ones I’ve created myself. And if you were there and you had a situation where you wanted to impose your style on a particular series which didn’t fit it, you’d soon get the sack. I’ve known it happen when I was on one of my own shows as a script editor, and we brought in a writer who we thought was ideal, and it turned out he had his own agenda. And then it can’t go ahead. A body stuffed into Henry VIII’s armour Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. Look, Murder at the Tower of London is set on the cusp of the 20th. century It’s 1899 in fact It opens with a rather gruesome death. It’s really spectacularly graphic – somebody who’s run through the sword and stuffed into. a coat of armor in the Tower of London. Now it seems to me this very graphic opening is very much a TV kind of opening, isn’t it? Jim Eldridge: You’re absolutely right there, Jenny. I think one of the things I learned as a TV writer, it was pushed on me, open with a big scene that grabs the audience. Because certainly with streaming services, you’ve got so many hundreds of channels. If you don’t grab that audience straight away, they’ll turn on to somebody else or switch it off. Therefore, go for the big opening and then afterwards, you can then tone it down a bit. Jenny Wheeler: It’s Henry VIII’s suit of armor, which makes it even more spectacular. Jim Eldridge: Yes. Again, most non British people would know of King Henry VIII. I thought it was most interesting that Henry VIII – The suit of armor he wore changed as he grew bigger, much bigger. The suit of armor that’s on show in the Line of Kings display is actually of a slimmer Henry VIII. Jenny Wheeler: The Line of Kings is still a thing today and you can actually go and see it. It’s on display at one of the cafes in the Tower of London, isn’t it? Jim Eldridge: Yeah, that’s absolutely right. And I thought it was most interesting, the idea it is called the Line of Kings. And although Queen Victoria didn’t have her own armor, Queen Elizabeth the First did and she wore armor when she addressed the English army at the time, of the Armada But it was only the Line of Kings. So only the males were shown, even though most of them never went to war, actually. Digging up history’s colourful details Jenny Wheeler: I love the way you include all those little factoids and you say that, I think it was Charles II that made the ruling that it was only going to be men who were allowed to be in that Line of Kings. Was that right? Jim Eldridge: Yes. Yeah, It’s on the Restoration. I think there had always been a tendency for some of royalty to think that women should be handmaidens. And the one thing Elizabeth wasn’t was a handmaiden. Frankly, if you look back on it, the two of the toughest monarchs were Elizabeth and Victoria. and there were some fairly wimpish kings in between. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Do you visit most of the sites that you write about? Jim Eldridge: I do my best to, yes, so consequently, even when I did like Manchester Museum, yes, I’d go to Manchester. I do like to go there. I like to get the feel of it. Many years ago when I did a book about World War II which included Pearl Harbor, I went to Pearl Harbor and you get that feeling there, being in the place is quite an amazing feeling really. I like to get the empathy and the ambience of the place and that’s why I work very hard to describe it as much as I can for the readers so they get that feeling of being there. Jenny Wheeler: It certainly does come through in the writing, and I suppose because I do like history, I was fascinated with many of the historical facts that you brought out. There was another one, for example, for people who are going to be doing a trip to London, you have one of the Salvation Army officers is murdered outside the pub where William Booth preached his first open air sermon. And I gather that pub even might still be there. Is it still going in London? Most famous cum notorious London pub Jim Eldridge: The pub is still there. It’s called The Blind Beggar. And the interesting thing is, the notorious Kray Brothers killed one of their victims in there. So, it is a notorious pub in London history. And I obviously didn’t include that because this is set in 1899, whereas the Kray Brothers are 1960. But The Blind Beggar survived the blitz and the bombing and is still there. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. I noticed the other thing you do in both your series that we’re talking about, you pair unusual couples together for your detectives. You’ll have one that’s very aristocratic and intellectual and another who’s quite working class. And in this one, the Tower Murder book, you’ve got Daniel Wilson, who’s a former workhouse boy. He did go on to become a detective senior sergeant, I think, in the end. But his wife, Abilene, is an archaeologist who was one of the first women to study for a degree at Girton College in Cambridge. She didn’t get given a degree because they wouldn’t let women get the actual degree even when they’d done the course, but she had actually qualified for a degree. An unlikely pairing. How did you put them together? Jim Eldridge: Again, I’ve always liked the idea of having two unlikely people in a pair. I’ve done this before as a script writer. And the question is, how do you get them together in the first place? And once I realized who I needed the two characters to be, who were like chalk and cheese. And then I came up with the idea of the first book in the museum series to be at the Fitzwilliam Museum in Cambridge. And Cambridge of course is where Abigail was and she studied at Girton College. And you’re quite right, what’s amazing is at that time, it wasn’t until almost the middle of the 20th century that women were allowed to get degrees over here, although London University was different, but she is an archaeologist. Never Miss out! 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And Daniel is a private investigator who’s called in to investigate the body that’s found in one of the Egyptian tombs and now they’re together and they don’t get on at first and that is the old script writing trick you get two people who at the start are daggers drawn and then gradually respect creeps in and then affection creeps in and then you end up with a pair You find it on almost every film I can think of, the great romantic films. Jenny Wheeler: We’ve been talking about this particular book, but a new one in the series, #10 in the series, I think, is coming out in early December. It’s called Museum in the Louvre. This is maybe the first one in the series that’s set outside of England. Tell us a bit about that one. Jim Eldridge: Ah, that’s right, yeah. the publishers and I had gone through the most popular museums in the world. It’d be nice to do a really obscure museum, but people in other countries go, ‘I’ve never heard of that,; where the Louvre is one of the most visited. And I thought, this is a great idea. It’s got one of the best collections of Egyptian artifacts in the world. When Abigail gets a letter from the professor there, inviting her to talk to him about working together on a dig in Egypt, she’s puzzled because this guy has consistently been anti her. He has gone in press saying, there is no place for women in digs and so on, this kind of stuff, but she wonders, hmm, maybe he’s mellowed, so they decide to go. Now Daniel has never left England, so they go off to Paris, she has the meeting, but unfortunately at that meeting, and it’s the shock horror thing she goes to the office and finds the professor dead, stabbed through the heart with an Egyptian knife. Falling foul of French gendarmes And consequently, om the uproar, she is caught and she’s arrested and taken to the prison in Paris. That leaves Daniel, who has no knowledge of French at all, on his own in Paris, trying to work out how he can get her free because she faces the guillotine. And I just thought…His is interesting because suddenly now, how does he cope? How, someone with no knowledge can’t speak it, can’t understand it. And that was the basic premise. It really became quite intricate. And I absolutely love that. I’ve been to Paris quite a few times. And I love the Louvre, which has got a fascinating history. Jenny Wheeler: Murder at Down Street Station, the other series that we’re talking about, is your latest World War II book, and that’s another one, it pairs an aristocrat detective with a wife who’s an up and coming jazz singer. Now tell us about this pair. Jim Eldridge: Again, before I start writing anything, I have to… and this is a hangover from the days of being a scriptwriter, I mull over who are my lead characters? Where have they come from? Who are they? And how can they be different without being too obviously different? And I suddenly had this thought about a guy whose name is Saxe-Coburg. The royal family’s name originally was Saxe- Coburg-Gotha, so he’s alleged to be or thought to be an aristocrat and his brother, his elder brother, is an Earl. So he is an aristocrat. but he keeps claiming he’s not related to the royal family, but he’s been to Eton. I have to say I’m more in common with Daniel because I was a working class kid from Camden Town in London, born right in the slums there but I just thought Edgar would have gone to Eton because that’s where they went. And then the idea of him always been a jazz lover. And the idea of that time of having a jazz singer who travels and they’d met up, makes an interesting pairing, because again, in the same way that Abigail is a strong woman, so is Rose. I’ve always despised the guys who tend to treat women as second-class citizens. And there certainly was a lot of it as I was growing up, if you can imagine. I like a woman who is strong. And Rose is strong and talented and there is a mutual attraction and it burgeons so once I’ve got those two characters. Down Street Station – Churchill’s lair My thinking is if the readership like them, then they will read more about them. And I think this is the truth about most detectives or characters in books or films. If you like someone you then want to follow their fortune. Jenny Wheeler: Absolutely, and this one also weaves in some fascinating historical detail. And the Down Street Station, that’s the center of the title of the book, was a temporary safe haven for Churchill at one stage during the course of the Blitz while the proper War Office accommodation was being refitted and made stronger to withstand the bombs. Jim Eldridge: As you say, Jenny, most people know the Churchill War Room when they come to London or they go there. But before they were in place, they realized it wouldn’t withstand bombing. And so what they did, they looked around and Down Street had been closed previously. And they had installed the Railway Executive Committee at the very bottom of it because it was safe and they controlled all the railway movements during Britain during the war and it was strengthened and it was deep underground. Therefore, the middle part was given over to Churchill for his War Cabinet and that’s where they were the walls over there. cementing and strengthening the Cabinet War Rooms. When I discovered this, I thought, this is wonderful. This is again, the real history of London. And because there are so many of these abandoned underground stations, it just presented a lot of prospects. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. It’s fabulous. You mentioned in one of your websites that you actually were born during the Blitz, but you were far too young to remember anything about it. Jim Eldridge: Yeah, I was born, what’s known as, during the Little Blitz. The main blitz was 1940 – 41. I was born in 1944 when one of the V-2 rockets fell and my pram was blown up by one of them. My older sister, who was 10 years older than me, was taking me out during the day, walking down the local street with my pram, and a V2 blew up a couple of streets away. These were massive, massive blasts and the blast ripped my pram out of my sister’s hands and raced it down the street and it was on a slope and it carried on careering down there until it hit a pile of bombsite rubble at the end where it turned over. News of his death greatly exaggerated My sister ran home to my mother and cried out, “Jim’s dead.” All the neighbors came out and when they lifted the pram, I was fast asleep. I think it’s one of the reasons why I can sleep through almost anything. Thunderstorms or whatever. What I therefore remember most are the bomb sites afterwards. And because the area I was born in was in the triangle of Euston, St. Pancras, and King’s Cross stations, it was heavily bombed to try and knock out the railroads. As a result, all the streets around us, they were flat. It’s like the images you get from Ukraine, it was like that. And if you ever see old films like Hue and Cry set immediately after the war, that’s what it was like. It was a bomb site. I was lucky to grow up, Jenny Wheeler: Has there any residual memory that makes this period of the war years somehow extra interesting for you? You were asleep, so you wouldn’t have even remembered anything about it. But I guess that growing up, that landscape of desolation stayed for quite a few years after the war, didn’t it? Jim Eldridge: Oh, right up to the late middle 50s. It’s about another 10 years before the rebuilding starts, yes. Basically, as children, our generation, those of us who were in central London, grew up on bomb sites. That was it. There were flattened areas, there were, houses with the fronts hanging off, all this kind of stuff. And you just got on with it, basically. But also what you did have, of course, is the stories told you by relatives and how they got into the war. One of my uncles had come home on leave and he’d fought at Alamein and he was with my father and he said to him, ‘this place is more dangerous than Alamein’ because of the bombs coming down, Luckily, if I’d been older, it might have haunted me, but it didn’t. you just got on with it. A typical writing day for Jim Eldridge Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Tell us about a typical writing day for you. How does that shape up? Jim Eldridge: I get up around eight o’clock in the morning, I click on the computer. If I haven’t got any thoughts about what I’m working on, because when I do a book, I’ve got a rough idea of the plot, of what happened, the storyline from the beginning and then where it’s going… But this changes, so that sometimes, I’ll go through and I think, yeah, that part’s working or that part isn’t working. And also, I might create a subsidiary character, say a villain or something, or some other character, and they develop a life of their own. And it’s quite interesting because they then create a plot for themselves. I then have to juggle it around. It’s always changing, which I like very much. And it goes on so some days if I’ve know exactly what I’m doing, I can get straight to it. Other times I’m not. So, I’ll go out and do some vegetable gardening. Many times I’ve got a problem on a plot bit, or a character bit, and it sits in my brain and sometimes it works itself out at night, overnight. I wake up in the morning and I’ve got the whole thing worked out and then immediately I get to the word processor. A lot of my work is done in the morning. Jenny Wheeler: Do you have a aim of certain number of words that you want to do every day Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Delivering on time an absolute rule Jim Eldridge: No, I know what I’ve got to get as the total. In other words, a book like the ones we talked about, Murder at Down Street I and Murder in the Tower London, are 80,000 words. I start to get more settled when I’ve done 20, 000 because I know I’m a quarter of the way there and I like to be able to read it and think yeah this is looking solid. Or sometimes I’m often though thinking myself there’s not enough to keep all this going so I then need to come up with another subplot to create another character or something like that but providing I know when the delivery date is and I will always deliver on that in fact, I deliver ahead of time, but that’s a leftover from script writing. Coming back to your point, Jenny, because when you’re a script writer, when I was writing situation comedy, you had to deliver a script a week and you’d be going into the studio. Now, if you didn’t deliver that script, there was no show. So I had to be done and the same thing with everything, especially if you’ve got filming lined up. You’ve got to get it written and so I learned in the early days give myself time so that I can deliver the script and then if there’s any problems, it gives me a couple of days to sort it out. So I deliver in advance. It is more the fact that if it didn’t work, if I didn’t deliver, I wouldn’t get paid. And also, people would say, oh, you don’t want to work with Jim Eldridge. He doesn’t deliver on time or he delivers late. There were various stories about, even some really great writers, who had to be locked into a hotel room with a typewriter because they hadn’t delivered yet. And I didn’t want that to happen. I want everything to be and I do, I keep to the same system with books. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve published 100 books now, you’ve got millions of readers internationally. Do you have a particular goal? Say. do you do two books a year or three books a year? When Lord Mountbatten was killed Jim Eldridge:  Again, now, and this is comfortable for me. I’m aiming at two books, two novels a year, two 80,000 word novels a year. But when I was script writing, I was working, so I would be doing three different TV series all at the same time. And also two radio series. Juggling them all. And it was, the old idea of, working through the night sometimes just to get them all done. Because don’t forget, no computers then. This is on an old-fashioned typewriter and I remember one particular case it was 1979. The reason I realized this, there was a situation comedy I was doing and I’ve got this situation comedy set in a hairdresser’s where they discovered an unexploded bomb in the wall where the people worked. And the producer phoned me up on Friday, we were due to record this the following Tuesday and he said, we can’t do this. Lord Mountbatten has just been blown up. We cannot do a situation comedy with a bomb in it. No one will laugh. And I thought, oh, and he said it’s Saturday morning now. He said can you deliver me the script tomorrow, Sunday? And I said, yes, because he needs to get prepared for the Tuesday. And I was completely stuck. I was stuck during most of that day trying to work it out, because he said you’ve got no more actors. We’ve got all the actors booked. We’ve got all, everything. And that’s it. And basically, I did it on an old fashioned typewriter. I did it through Saturday night and then got on my mini motorbike and took it over to him on Sunday and delivered it. And that was it. That’s the thing about it has to be delivered and those lessons that I learned, but also it has to be acceptable because you can’t just rush something. But the same thing, if I’m delivering a book to someone, to my publishers, they want to know that it’s good and people will like it. And if they think it isn’t, they’ll bung it back at me and say, for some reason, this isn’t working. You need to change this, that and the other. And all these things that you have to bear in mind if you’re what I would call a commercial writer rather than an art house writer. James Joyce, what, a book every 10 years or so? What Jim Eldridge is reading now Jenny Wheeler: Now that’s good, but I don’t think even today that James Joyce would be able to make a living with a book every 10 years. Jim Eldridge: No, but I’m quite lucky because don’t forget, as you said, I’ve got an awful lot at the back catalogue and I’ve always made sure I own the rights. In other words, the old shows. that I’ve got at the moment. I have three old shows going out on BBC Radio 4 Extra. And all the hundred or more books, they’re all slowly earning, not mammoth sums, but they keep me fed. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Jim, as a reader, we always like to ask our authors about their reading tastes. Have you got anything you’d like to recommend to our listeners, and what do you personally like to read? Jim Eldridge: Personally, I like to read crime fiction, which is one of the reasons why I opted for crime fiction, And yes, my own choices are, I would say, it’s your seminal Maigret series. I love things I can reread again even though I know ‘who done it.’ For the same reason, Arthur Conan Doyle and Holmes, Sherlock Holmes, Agatha Christie, and an American writer, Ed McBain who did the 87th Precinct series. These kind of things, they’re long running series. I suppose you could always call them comfort reading but that’s the kind of stuff I enjoy. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great, because this show is really about those sorts of books, the books we read for entertainment. And those are all classics, aren’t they? They absolutely are. Jim Eldridge: They are. there are enough of them for me to know that there’s always another one I can get to. It’s absolutely frustrating if I read the first book by someone and I think this is absolutely brilliant. And then it’s 10 years before the next one comes out. That’s why I like it. I’m a binge reader. Looking back down the tunnel of time…. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing that you would change about your creative career, what would it be? Jim Eldridge: That’s a really hard question. Because in a way, it hasn’t been a planned. My career hasn’t been a plan. It’s actually gone from a bit of luck, starting off doing this I did a sitcom – with Arthur Lowe to start with and as a result of that, the BBC said, what else you got? I came up with the next one because at the time I was a single parent. So I came up with a sitcom about a single parent father and then as you start to get it, people would approach me and say, what have you got for us? Or would you like to write for such and such this comedian? Or we’re doing this series, would you like to join the writing team and so it went like that. There’s one or two regrets I’ve got where I’ve said yes. Michael Caine has often said about his acting career, he said yes to everything, he said, and yeah, I made, if anyone’s seen it – Jaws 3. He said, I never have, it’s a terrible film, but I’ve seen the house that it built me, and that’s lovely, So I tend to have that kind of attitude to it. Sometimes there have been times when I said yes to a show thinking I would absolutely love it and enjoy it and discovered I really didn’t. Either the ego of the star made me think, ‘I’m going to have to run him over or something’ and I’ll take the money and run. But generally speaking I’ve been very lucky, I’ve enjoyed it all, I’ve worked with some fantastic people, I don’t really have any regrets. It might have changed if something goes badly wrong, that’s when you start to think I shouldn’t have done that. But I’ve been quite lucky is that most of the stuff that I’ve worked on seems to have done all right. Jenny Wheeler: That little remark about you’ve worked with some fantastic people. I know it’s very difficult, probably, to pick out some names, but… Are there any names that particularly float to the top of your head that you think, oh, that was just fantastic to be able to work with him or her, just a couple of them? Great people Jim Eldridge has worked with Jim Eldridge: Yeah, just one. I don’t know if you know him, Peter Davison. He was in Doctor Who. And he was in the first series that I did of this one set in a school called King Street Junior. And he was wonderful to work with. Not only was he wonderful, but I’ll give you the example. I also used to teach and I was teaching at a school for handicapped children and there was a fete being put on and I asked Peter, ‘could you do me a favor? Would you come and open the fete?’ Now, at that time he was doing a TV series, he was doing other stuff, and he only had one day off. And he said yes. And he wasn’t going to charge for it. Now, I say that because a lot of celebrities, if they open the fete, they charge a lot of money and he came and not only did he open the fete and it threw it with rain down all the day, he walked around, spoke to everyone and everything and I thought, this is one of the nicest people in show business I’ve ever worked with.  He was a sheer pleasure to work with. Yeah. And I worked with a man called Dennis May Wilson, who was my first TV producer. And Dennis May Wilson, again, a lot of people won’t have heard of him, but they might know he Goon Show. He was the man who created that. Hancock’s Half Hour? He was the first producer of that. Till Death Us Do Part, too. He was amazing. I learned an awful lot from him about comedy. Absolutely brilliant, so those are two, one behind this camera, one in front of the camera. Jenny Wheeler: One of the areas of your work that we didn’t get to talk about, and we don’t have much time now, but your remarks about both being a teacher and a solo dad show some hint of why children’s books were so important to you. And particularly, it seems to me, children who might have a little bit more difficulty reading. You did a series for reluctant readers, for example, didn’t you? Just tell us that. Jim’s passion for helping people to read Jim Eldridge: I was so delighted to be asked to do that. The reason is, way back in the 70s I was teaching at a school in Luton, in what you could loosely call one of the disadvantaged areas. And I ended up specializing in the literacy. For example, I had one boy of 9 who couldn’t read,  had never read. And I taught him to read and I thought to myself, if there’s a mission I’ve got is to make sure that no child ever leaves my class unable to read because without that you have nothing and there were some very bright kids and I’ve known some highly intelligent people, adults who were illiterate because they hadn’t learned to read when they were kids. And so that was the thing and as a result, so when I was offered the chance by Barrington Stoke, who specialise in books for dyslexic children and adults, I was delighted to do those for reluctant readers. And some of the letters and emails I got that made me happiest was I got one from a woman who wrote to me, she said my son who’s 12 has just read one of your books, she said, He’s never read anything before, she said, and I sit here with tears rolling down my face. And that is the kind of thing that for me. I’ve won a couple of awards, which is nice, but that means much more to me than anything like that. The idea that someone who couldn’t read can, has now got confidence to read. And so that is the really big thing for me. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely, Jim, and it sounds to me like you’re one of those really lovely people that you say you enjoyed working with. That’s a wonderful story. Jim Eldridge: That’s my false image of myself. I like to think so, but there you go. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Jim Eldridge is working on in next year Jenny Wheeler: I always ask people, what have they got on their desk for the next 12 months? What are you looking at and wanting to get done over the next 12 months? Jim Eldridge: I’ve got a lot on. I’ve just finished Murder at Lord’s Station which is the latest in that World War II one and I’m working already on the next one, Murder at Whitechapel Road and there’s another couple of books that publishers have asked me to give outlines for which I’ve done the outlines for. I think I’ve got a busy 12 months ahead. And then here, of course, my vegetable garden, which is very important to me because I don’t get a lot of exercise. So getting out there and deciding which potatoes I’m going to be planting, stuff like that. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. You live in Kent, don’t you? Jim Eldridge: I do, in North Kent. Jenny Wheeler: Do you enjoy interacting with your readers? I’m sure you do. How do you do that mostly now? Jim Eldridge: I don’t do social media and everything, but in the past I would go and do the Chiltern Book Festival, things like that – book festivals, literary festivals, and people would come in and then ask questions and this kind of stuff. Now, I tend to do most of it by email. People hit my website, and then it goes, contact us. Often it goes like that, although now and then, I’ve recently had someone, I did an old science fiction series years ago, and the journalist contacted me and said, would you like to interview me about it? He came down to Kent, I don’t travel as much as I used to because, as I approach 80. So that’s why email has been great for me really. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. We’ll put your email contact in the show notes for this episode so people will know where to find you. Look, it’s been a delight to talk to you. Jim Eldridge: Thank you so much for being such a great host. Just allowing me to talk away. Jenny Wheeler: You do it so naturally, it’s just great to hear. So, thanks a lot. Jim Eldridge: Thank you very much indeed for today. If you enjoyed Jim you might also enjoy Lady Sherlock… Sherry Thomas and her Lady Sherlock mysteries…. What if Sherlock Holmes was a woman? very clever, fast paced and well researched historical fiction from Sherry Thomas… Sherry Thomas has won accolades for giving Sherlock Holmes a fresh look by taking the famous detective and turning him into Charlotte – a disgraced woman who stays in the shadows and can’t reveal herself. LISTEN TO SHERRY HERE Next Week on Binge Reading Empowering feminist historical adventures….set in nineteenth century Australia… uncovering the hidden spirit that’s always been there…. Next week on Binge Reading. Australian best-selling author, Darry Fraser, and her latest empowering feminist fiction, The Milliner of Bendigo, a twisty historical mystery and adventure, and her twelfth historical novel. Evie has got trouble with the law. Her sister is missing. And she’s conceived a growing attachment to the wrong man. Evie has a dangerous adventure ahead of her. That’s next week on the Binge Reading podcast. Once again, a reminder before I go leave us a review. So others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

Reviewers use all sorts of adjectives to describe inspirational fiction author Tessa Afshar’s work. Words like whimsical, intriguing, romantic, prophetic, faith-filled, daunting, grace-filled, dangerous, redeeming, heart-pumping, heart-stirring, sad and joyful – all at once. That’s Tessa. Hi, I’m your host, Julie Wheeler. And on this week’s show, historical fiction author Tessa Afshar talks about her latest release, The Persian King, set in Babylon in the sixth century BC. And she shares something of her remarkable life; at 14 years of age, speaking no English, moving from the Middle East to a British boarding school, and then becoming a Christian in her early twenties and completing a Masters in Divinity at Yale. Best-selling romance author Debbie Macomber says of her work: “No one brings the Bible to life like Tessa Afshar.” Our Giveaway this week Our Giveaway this week is Mystery with Romance, a group of best-selling authors once again joining together to offer a great range of books for you to choose from and download for FREE including  Sadie’s Vow, Book #1 in my latest trilogy Home At Last. DOWNLOAD MYSTERY WITH ROMANCE EBOOKS https://books.bookfunnel.com/freebookspg13mysteryromance/tm6fhkvpt0 And remember – if you enjoy the show. Leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links for things mentioned in this episode Song from Psalm 137 By The Waters of Babylon Boney M:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FgDles4xq8 And Don Mclean:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcBy_b7z_dU Herodotus: Greek historian and biographer; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus Philippians 2: 10 – 11  Every knee shall bow https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202%3A10-11&version=NIV The Medes: https://www.britannica.com/place/Media-ancient-region-Iran The Persians: https://education.nationalgeographic.org/resource/persian-empire/ Women Who Risk by Tom and Joann Doyle:  https://www.amazon.com/Women-Who-Risk-Secret-Agents/dp/0785233466 The re-telling of Ruth: In The Field Of Grace – Tessa Afshar:  https://www.amazon.com/Field-Grace-Tessa-Afshar/dp/0802410979 The Peasant King: https://tessaafshar.com/books/the-peasant-king/ The Hidden Prince: https://tessaafshar.com/books/the-hidden-prince/ Where to find Tessa Afshar online Website: www.tessaafshar.com Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/AuthorTessaAfshar Instagram: @tessaafashar Introducing historical fiction author Tessa Afshar Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Tessa. Hello there, Tessa, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Tessa Afshar – Fiction in Ancient and Biblical times Tessa Afshar: Jenny, it’s an honor to be with you. I’m really looking forward to our time together and I hope that my New Zealand friends will enjoy our conversation, and everybody else around the world who’s listening to this podcast. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. So you know folk in New Zealand, do you? Tessa Afshar: I don’t, it’s just one of those gorgeous countries I’ve always wanted to visit. I’ve heard so many amazing things about people from New Zealand and what I’ve seen on TV of your gorgeous country makes me want to come and hang out. Jenny Wheeler: You’d certainly be known here to New Zealand readers because your fiction that you write, the inspirational fiction, both biblically and historically based, is described as “seriously good inspirational fiction.” Tell us about your latest book, which is The Peasant King. That’s the one we’re going to be discussing today. It is a biblically based story and it goes right back to Babylon in the 6th century BC. A famous period, even to non-believers, that’s a famous period in history. Tell us about the background for that book. Babylon and Biblical prophecy Tessa Afshar: Yes, absolutely. I’d be delighted to. And first of all, thank you so much for telling me that the readers in New Zealand like my books. That makes me so happy. The Peasant King, as you mentioned, is set during 6th century BC. This is about 50 years into the people of Judah being captive in Babylon. And according to the prophets at this point, we know that their captivity is supposed to end after 70 years, which is a mere 20 years from now, but no one knows how this is even possible. Babylon is still the most powerful nation in the world and no one can beat them. So how can God’s promise be fulfilled at this point? And we have bigger problems than the timeline when you study the Bible. You read that the prophet Jeremiah has foretold that Babylon is going to be conquered by the rulers of the Medes, but the king named by the prophet Isaiah at this point is the ruler of a poor country called Persia, not Medea. And it’s 20 years before these prophecies have to be fulfilled and we are nowhere near the fulfillment of them. The King God has chosen as the rescuer of his people at this point has little power. In fact, he pays tribute to the Medes who are the second most powerful nation in the world. So how is he going to become the king of the Medes and fulfill Jeremiah’s prophecy and be on his way to fulfilling Isaiah’s prophecies as well? The whole thing seems hopeless, and that’s the background of The Peasant King. It tells a story of these impossible doors that God opens before the Persian king and how God fulfills Jeremiah’s promise. It’s really about a year of miracles. That’s all in the background of the story. By the waters of Babylon… Jenny Wheeler: Yes. There’s a famous psalm that refers to this period, Psalm 137, which talks about the captives sitting by a river in Babylon and their captors ask them to sing. They obviously are well known as musicians and the psalm says, “how can we sing when we’re captive and we just want to lament.” That has been picked up by a lot of popular musicians in our own time, and I can think of two. I’m quite old and ancient now, but two in my lifetime, Boney M and Don McClean both had hit records referring to these verses in Psalm 1 37. Why do you think that it has such a resonance even for us today? Tessa Afshar: I’m quite ancient myself, but I like even more ancient things like reading the Bible. And I have to say, I think that Psalm would have been written closer to the initial captivity and the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. So many decades before this period. And yet at the same time, I think that sense of it, that the weeping of the loss of it, is probably deeply embedded in the consciousness of these captives. They have lost their whole nation. And to us, it’s resonant because all of us understand the experience of loss, the experience of loss of something big. And I think particularly today, I live in the U. S. I’m a citizen of the U. S. even though I wasn’t born here, but I feel the change, the rapid changes of this culture, of this society. And sometimes I can’t get my head wrapped around it. And sometimes I feel like the captives in Babylon and I want to sit by the rivers of Babylon and weep for what I feel is going. And I feel like the world is in a place where I’m so unfamiliar. I’m a stranger. And as Christians, we are meant to be strangers in this world. A stranger in a strange land This was never meant to be our home. we’re renters. Our permanent home is elsewhere. But I think that there are things that happen in life, whether on a personal level, or sometimes as in this period where it’s national events cause you to feel like truly a stranger and you want to sit and weep for what’s been lost. Jenny Wheeler: The psalm does use that phrase, doesn’t it? A stranger in a strange land, I think that’s the sense of it, if not the actual words. Tessa Afshar: Yes, exactly. And I think, as Christians, we understand that at the very core level, we are strangers in this world. We’re meant to be citizens of a heaven. We’re meant to be residents of Eden and our citizenship is not here. It’s in heaven. There’s a part of us that always resonates with that sense of being strangers. This is not the way it’s meant to be. Jenny Wheeler: In your books you create a narrative which is wonderfully detailed and believable. But how much do we actually know historically from the sources of this period? And how much of it do you have to create from your imagination? Tessa Afshar: What a great question, Jenny. For this particular book, as far as the Bible is concerned, the Bible in the prophecies tells us about this Persian king. What it doesn’t tell us is how does this transformation happen? How does he go from being the ruler of a fairly small country with few resources to the head of an empire strong enough to overcome the Medes and the Babylonians, the two most powerful nations in the world. Opening doors of bronze We are not given a glimpse into that transformation from the Bible, but the secular sources, the historians who are close to this time do provide us with quite a bit of information. They are the ones who tell the story of the transformation. The thing that the Bible tells us is God promises this Persian king. He says, “I will equip you. I will go before you and I will open the doors of bronze before you.” The doors of bronze symbolize that which is impossible for human hands to open, to break down. And God is saying, even though you don’t know me, I am going to do this for you. And then when you study the historical accounts. these secular accounts consistently say, ‘but this is impossible.’ How did he win that battle? This shouldn’t have gone this way. And that’s when you read it through the lens of the Bible, you realize the Lord really did equip him. The Lord really did open doors of bronze. There is some detail that we know. My main characters are actually fictional and I’m telling their story alongside this whole historical account in the background. There are many things we do know. The ancient Persians are also, to a large degree, tremendously mysterious to us because they don’t leave a whole lot of information about themselves. I use what resources are available and then there are some things that I absolutely just have to make up or imagine or dream up. Jenny Wheeler: Now those original sources, are they available in English or do you have to have help with translation? How does that work? Tessa Afshar: Oh, goodness, no. People like Herodotus for example, the English is absolutely available and then there are secondary sources, scholars who’ve dug into these original sources and they have processed them and they are able to compare them. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Persian history seen through their enemy’s eyes Because I’m not a historian, I write novels. And I need the help of those who are actual historians and are scholars in this area to say, yes this is what it was probably like. And it’s really helpful because historians more recently in the last 20 years or so have discovered a lot more about Persians, because if you read the older modern sources, they’re not as reliable because they’re relying so much on only what the Greeks said without really putting it through a process of how reliable is this? And the Greeks were the enemies of the Persians. If you read American history through the eyes of let’s say a Russian at this point or something like that. You know that how they perceive things and how they described leaders is not necessarily always accurate. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I know what you mean. The Peasant King follows on from a previous book called The Hidden Prince and you can read them both as standalones, but they naturally fit together, telling similar events chronologically. And in The Hidden Prince, the prophet Daniel appears as a pretty important secondary character. He’s not quite one of the principal characters, but for a lot of people who know that name in the Bible, even if it’s just Daniel in the lion’s den, it was great to have all of the detail filled in around what life might’ve been for Daniel in this period. Tell us about that first book and what inspired that. Tessa Afshar: I consider these two books a duology. Created to be standalone, as you mentioned, but personally, my preference as a reader always is to read things in order. So if you want to read one of these books, I would say pick up The Hidden Prince, which is 20 years before The Peasant King. It’s the events of the childhood of this Persian king and again, two main fictional characters who play an important fictional role in the story that we do have from history. Tessa’s primary goal – to write a fun story And I love always bringing in biblical characters as secondary characters. So we get to know them a little bit. We get to know the biblical background in a fictional setting. I don’t want my readers to pick up these books and feel like, oh my goodness, I just wanted a fun novel, and I feel like I’m reading a Bible study. I want them to read an exciting story. I want to keep them up at night. I want them to laugh out loud. I want them to get a few tears in their eyes and to have a genuine experience of reading a fun novel but at the same time to bring these threads both from the Bible, from these characters and from God. Daniel is one of those few people in the Bible that we don’t get to see the negative side of. He’s presented at this as this incredibly brave, courageous and wise person. And I really wanted to reveal him a little bit. There, is no mention by the way, in Daniel of whether he was married or not married. Some scholars say he might have been a eunuch, but other scholars very strongly disagree. The Bible doesn’t say he is or he isn’t. The Bible is silent. I came to the conclusion that he probably wasn’t. And so that meant. was he a single man into his late life or he never married, which is very unlikely for someone of his position and wealth. I decided that he was married. If he wasn’t a eunuch, then I decided he was likely to be married. And I gave him a wife just so he could have some enjoyment in my book. I guess now I also love the character of his wife and sons play a role in the story in The Hidden Prince. So yeah, I think the role that Daniel plays is this character who is the older man with all the wisdom, with all the faith, who comes alongside the younger ones who are in their twenties and are struggling to understand, how do I live in this world as a captive? And then when they fail, how do I survive my failures? ‘Historical fiction written in Biblical times’ Jenny Wheeler: You write both historical fiction as well as biblical fiction. So you’ve got other stories which may not have a biblical origin, but are still set in the ancient world. For you as an author, is there much difference between how you handle the biblical fiction and the historical fiction? Tessa Afshar: Yeah, I think, I personally prefer the term historical fiction written in biblical times to biblical fiction because the way I look at the Bible. There’s no fiction in the Bible, do you know what I mean? This is my source of truth with a capital T and I take that very seriously and novels by virtue of what they are inherently are made up to a large degree. When you write historical fiction, the history informs the novel, but you’re still making stuff up. That’s the whole nature of it. Sometimes I have a main character who is in the Bible. So my story about Rahab; my story about Lydia’ or the woman with the issue of blood. These characters are in the Bible, the main characters, I think that for me, is closer to what I would consider a biblical fiction, even though I would still prefer to call it fiction set in biblical times. But the stories like The Hidden Prince or The Peasant King, which have central characters who are fictional for me, those are historical fiction. Jenny Wheeler: In  both books you refer to a verse in Deuteronomy which speaks of God’s ‘little by little’ approach. There’s a famous verse which a lot of people use to help them get through times when their patience is being tested about how God’s pattern often is to move little by little rather than do everything in one big rush. I’ve seen some interesting comment that you’ve had online about this particular approach and how for our own times with instant gratification and particularly now with the digital age ‘little by little’ is even harder for us to accept than it might’ve been a few hundred years ago. Tell, talk a little bit about that. Little by little the road to wisdom Tessa Afshar: Jenny, I have to make a confession. I forgot that I had used that verse in The Hidden Prince as well. I thought I was just using it in The Peasant King, which has, I think, a more central thread. And then I have a devotional coming out in the next year. So it’s part of the devotional as well. And I think the reason this is been so much on my mind is because God has been really speaking to me through that verse in Deuteronomy, where God says to his people they’re about to come into the promised land. And he says, you will take the land little by little and not all at once. And he has a reason for that, because if they take it all at once, actually they won’t be able to be on top of it, so to speak. I feel like our brains need to be retrained into the little by little because so many of the most important lessons of God are learned in the little by little places where when you are in pain or when you are longing for something, when there is a desire that’s unmet, you want an all at once answer. You want the pain to go away. You want this emptiness to be filled, but it is in the little by littles, in the waiting places, in the learning to trust in God, places in the. believing in God for something places that our faith grows. As long as we receive things all at once, our faith remains childish and shallow. But when our faith is tempered in the little by little places of God, where he teaches us to wait on him, I think that faith is much more powerful and deeper and more able to navigate this world, which sometimes can be so hard. Jenny Wheeler: Absolutely. You lived in the Middle East in a nominally Muslim family until your early adolescence. And then you were suddenly wrenched into life in an English boarding school, which you say very nicely, you survived. That must have been a very traumatic experience for you. Tessa Afshar’s remarkable life story Tessa Afshar: In some ways it was. The reason I left my country of birth was that my parents divorced and my mom and my sister and I ended up going to England where I went to boarding school. So it wasn’t merely that I started attending boarding school. It was that I lost my language, my home, my father remained behind and he was the parent to whom I was particularly attached. I lost my extended family, my friends, my food, there was a lot of loss. And that is tremendously wrenching. I think for me, that has taught me what it’s like to come into things as an outsider. And the Bible is full of people like that. People like Rahab, people like Ruth. I think in many ways the Bible is a book of outsiders whom God turns into Insiders, those who belong to him. So I think that was an experience that I learned very early in life. And as hard as it was, Jenny, I feel like the Lord used it for great good in my life. Jenny Wheeler: Now you converted to Christianity in your twenties, that also is quite a remarkable next step given your background. How did that come about? Tessa Afshar: I was very blessed in that I was born to a very supportive family. My father, for example, never disciplined us kids. There were three of us, never once physically disciplined us. And part of that was because he was a physician and he didn’t get to spend a whole lot of time with us at home. He was a very busy man and he said he didn’t feel he had earned the right to discipline us like that. I had a privileged upbringing. We were nominal Muslims, so my mother didn’t wear the hijab and we didn’t pray five times a day. My father had been trained in medicine in France and so there was a lot of kind of westernized approach to life, although we also had a very Middle Eastern, very the Islamic worldview had left its mark for sure. Part of that I always say, for example, even from an eternal perspective for Muslims, when you are thinking about eternity, do I go to heaven? Do I go to hell? Like your eternal destiny ultimately it comes down to. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Gaining an understanding of grace When you die there’s literally these scales that will measure your good deeds versus your bad deeds. And it’s all up to you, how you have lived and how you have served God and whichever side is heavier, that’s the side you’re headed for. It really impresses upon you this notion that life is up to you, whether you’re good or bad, whether you are happy or sad, whatever you accomplish in every level, life is up to you. There’s very little grace. I had that mindset of if I am good enough, if I am smart enough, if I work hard enough, if I’m kind enough, if I’m whatever enough, if I’m enough, then I can have a successful life. And I think in my young age I understood success to mean to have happiness and to be well, established and all of that. And when I was in my twenties and I think that there are a lot of. Westerners, there are a lot of even Christians who have the same mindset. It’s sad. We have almost Muslim mindsets, we forget about the deep grace of God. We forget about the fact that the Lord says the first step of faith for us Christians is to say, actually, I failed. Actually, I have failed and I can never succeed enough to meet the goodness of God. We all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So our first step as Christians is to say we are failures and we will never succeed. And that is very different from the mindset of saying, I just have to be good enough. I just have to achieve enough. I just have to do enough in order for God to love me or in order for God to bless me. And in order to be protected from harm. I t just doesn’t work like that. But that was my mindset. And so when I was in my twenties, I went through a very difficult season where my whole world essentially fell apart. Reading romances in church And that lie was revealed. The lie that I am not in control, that I cannot I cannot force my own happiness or success. And it’s just not up to me. There’s nothing I can do to change this situation. It was a very difficult year just to cope. I felt like I had wrecked my life. I felt like I could never fix it again. And I had no recourse because I didn’t know the gospel. Now, when I was little when I was in my teens and I was in this. English boarding school on Sundays, we had to go to church. The boarding school was not Christian. It wasn’t faith based, but British boarding schools tend to be extremely traditional. And back then, at least part of the tradition was on Sunday, you go to church. So on Sunday I went to church, but I was told because of my background to sit upstairs in the balcony and read my own book of faith, which would have been the Quran. But I didn’t speak Arabic. And you have to read the Quran in Arabic for it to have any effect, to be efficacious from a faith perspective. And if you read a translation, it just doesn’t count. When we say read the Quran, we think it’s the same as reading the Bible for us because as Christians reading the Bible is really foundational for our faith and developing our faith. But for the Muslims, this is not the case. This is not one of the five tenets of Islam. It’s good for you if you read it in Arabic, which I couldn’t. I was told because I was told to read the Quran, I thought I can’t argue. I was too shy to tell them all of this. What I did was I essentially decided. I will read. I used to sneak romance novels under my cloak to church and read romance novels, which is to say I did not hear the gospel. And I did learn a few things about love, but I’m not sure that’s what Jesus had in mind. My sister eight years later, because she’s younger attended the same boarding school and she actually at that time had to sit downstairs and she said she never heard the gospel either. Sometimes you can attend a church where you don’t hear the gospel, unfortunately. So anyway, in my twenties when I went through this really terrible time, I did not know the gospel. I didn’t have anywhere to turn to. I didn’t have the answers and I was longing for them. I was thirsty for them. A dream that changed Tessa’s life Then one night I went to sleep and I had a dream. And in that dream, I was by the Sea of Galilee and there was a throng of people who were followers of Jesus. And in the dream, I saw a man walking toward me and I knew that this man was Jesus. I was very curious to see him and find out what does he look like? When he was close enough for me to see him still in the dream state, my first reaction to him, I’m embarrassed to say, was disappointment. I think I’m going to be one of the few people in the world who’s going to go down with that reaction, with my first encounter with Jesus, because it was such a shallow response. My reaction was disappointment because my only exposure to Jesus in my waking hours had been through a couple of movies that they would show during Easter and Christmas, both in England and I think less in the U.S. but especially in England. In both versions, Jesus was really good looking. In one actually he was blonde and blue eyed, and in the other he looked very Hollywood good looking, but the Jesus of my dream was very plain. And it wasn’t until months later when I would start reading the Bible, when I would see the verse in Isaiah, where it says he’s not much to look at. But in my dream, I didn’t know that. So, my first response was “was that Jesus?” like God couldn’t do any better for his son? As he walked closer all such nonsensical thoughts just flew from my head. I was able to see his eyes. And in his eyes, I saw such love as I have never experienced, nor will I experience on this earth. And I’m a very loved person. I’m in a happy marriage. I have a very dear family, but the love of Jesus is utterly perfect and unbroken and mighty. It’s a love that knows you through and through. But alongside that love, I also experienced and saw a power, the likes of which I had never experienced. Love and power irresistibly combined Later on in the Bible, I would read that nothing was created that was created except that it was through him, that the stars were put in place through him, that named by him, that he is the one who holds all things together. That was the power that I saw in his eyes. I didn’t know all of this at the time. I just knew that looking into his eyes, I almost fell on my knees because that combination of love and power is overwhelming. I don’t know if you remember this verse in Philippians where it says every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. And I have learned through that dream that when we come face to face with Jesus, we will bow and we will confess that he is Lord. You cannot not do it. And so in the dream, he asked me to follow him. And I did. And perhaps the most amazing part of the dream was that in it, I knew he was the son of God. I knew he was Very God of Very God. I couldn’t have explained it. I just knew whatever he said would come to pass, even if it was an impossibility that I could rest the weight of my life on him, that he was entirely trustworthy and he was entirely powerful to do what he promised. So I did follow him. And when I woke up, I had three days of unshakable peace in a season where I had no peace. And that was extraordinary, but I wasn’t a Christian yet because I didn’t understand the gospel. I didn’t understand what it meant to give my life to surrender everything to him. All of my conscious questions and objections still ruled my mind and I had grown up in a house where that was very nominal, on every level. When it came to faith, we believe that all faiths were the same, that it was a creation of God, my parents believed in God and so did I, but we didn’t believe in any religion and I didn’t understand that Christianity was different. That Christianity is not religion, that Christianity is a relationship. I didn’t understand that. It wasn’t for a while. After that, when I returned to the States from England, where God allowed me to be surrounded by Christians, and these are bold Christians, they were loving Christians. They invited me to their home, they cooked for me, they loved up on me, and I could tell that they were different. Living out Corinthians 13 So I kept asking what is it about you? And they kept saying Jesus. And I felt like I was above that. I said okay. But besides that, besides all your religious stuff, what is it about you? I want your secret. And they said, no, you don’t understand the secret is Jesus. And so for a while, like it was these just crazy Christians that I fell in love with first, and it was through them that I saw Jesus, their choices were just different from everybody else’s their actions their love. It was just so different. And I think as Christians, most of us don’t understand. We feel so ordinary. We are so aware of the ways we fail Jesus. We often don’t recognize how much power flows through us because of the Holy Spirit. When we come face to face with unbelievers, when we open our homes to them, when we love up on them it’s Jesus himself who works through us to show himself to them. So eventually one day. I had this thought, but what if 99 percent I’m right and they’re wrong, but what if that 1 percent I’m wrong? What am I missing out here? And I always say jokingly, God just needed my 1%. or needed my 0. 1%. And that really was it. I don’t know how, but one day I fell in love with Jesus. That’s all it was. I fell in love. I didn’t understand the intellectual understanding for me came afterwards. Initially I had this absolute emotional connection with Jesus where I felt like he loved me and I loved him. It was first Corinthians 13 when I read that love is patient. Love is kind. When you read that whole passage, we read it in our in our weddings, it’s not a wedding passage. It’s great for weddings, but it’s a passage for every day. And I realized I want to be loved like this. And I want to be able to love like this, but there’s only one person who has ever truly loved me like this, and that’s Jesus, that’s the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and I am, I’m hopelessly going to fail at it, unless He is with me and loving through me. Jenny Wheeler: Now you went on and did a Masters of Divinity at Yale. So you really did go into the more intellectual side of it and base a logical understanding as well. How did you then get into writing fiction? And now we just must keep it, a little bit short because we’re going to run out of time soon.  How did you make that transition from Yale and then 20 years in ministry into writing fiction. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Moving from ministry to writing novels Tessa Afshar: When I first became a Christian, I told Jesus that this is going to be a very private thing between us, but you can’t fall in love with someone and not want to go and tell everybody about it. And I knew that I was being called into that study. And so I just did it obediently. I never knew how I would use it. Although God opened the door for me to go into prayer ministry, women’s ministry for about 20 years. I had always wanted to be writer since I was a child. In my twenties, I wrote a couple of serial romance novels cause that’s what I wanted to be before Jesus. I wanted to be a romance novelist, but I think Jesus had a different plan for me. And so he closed those doors. And because I was fragile to rejection, actually I came very close to being published and they did ask me to send more books because they liked my writing. And today as a confident writer, I know that’s a really important invitation. But back then I just heard the no. And so after that I was so afraid of writing. Every time I would start something, I wouldn’t finish it because I always told myself oh this is terrible. No one is going to want to read this. And it wasn’t until Jesus brought some healing into my heart in that area of rejection, of fear of failure, that I with him finally finished a novel. And that went on to be my first novel that was published. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. That’s wonderful. We do always like to ask our authors what they’re reading as well, because the people that listen to this podcast, many of them, most of them are passionate readers looking for their next good read. What do you like to read yourself? And what would you like to recommend to our listeners? What Tessa is reading right now Tessa Afshar: I read all sorts of things. The thing I read least of is biblical fiction because to me it almost feels like work. It’s so different from what I do that it’s not my favorite genre. I love historical fiction. I love, some whodunits and adventures and thrillers. Right now, I’m reading a book that’s nonfiction called Women. Who Risk (by Tom and Joann Doyle) and it’s the story of women from the Muslim world who have come to Christ and who are at great risk to their lives changing their families one person at a time, changing the world one person at a time. I just am a great lover of books. I read every day. Sometimes I read. One nonfiction and one fiction. I brush my teeth with a book. Books are never far from me., I also love older books like Jane Austen and Charlotte Bronte. Anything like that. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, if you had your creative career over again, is there anything you’d change? And if so, what would it be? Tessa Afshar: I would start sooner. I would start writing sooner because, on the one hand, it’s been a blessing to be, as I call it, a late bloomer because during those years, Jesus was putting spiritual deposits in my soul. So the books I write today, I couldn’t have written when I was in my thirties. Maybe certainly not before then, but at the same time I feel like I definitely had stories that I could have told back then, but my fear of failure stopped me and blocked me. So I feel like – and this is probably an issue for many of us, not just for writing, but for other dreams in life as well. And it’s something that you have to press against, but press against it with God. The Holy Spirit needs to show you the root of that fear. Why is it that failure is so scary? Why is it that rejection makes you feel like you have to reject it first before someone else can. Learning the root of these wounds, the root of these fears will help release you into your call. The most precious accolade of all Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. You’ve now had your books translated into many languages. You’ve been shortlisted for numerous awards and there’s lots of glowing reviews including, I love the one from Debbie Macomber who’s a best-selling romance writer who said you bring the Bible alive like nobody else. Amongst all those accolades that you’ve had, is there one that stands out for you as most precious? Tessa Afshar: It’s not necessarily words, but when my father was close to the end of his life, he had a copy of one of my books. It was my book on Ruth – In The Field of Grace – and wherever he went, he would take that copy with him. There are things that he would lose because he was in his nineties and he was. Not always very present to the moment, but he held on to that book. Jenny Wheeler: That is precious. Was he still in the Middle East then? Tessa Afshar: No, he came to the U. S. and he lived with us for many years. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, great. So you didn’t lose that contact. That is precious. Tessa Afshar: My father came to Christ and was baptized when he was in his seventies. That is an incredible privilege and blessing and the knowledge that one day we will be reunited? It means a lot. He was very proud of the fact that I wrote, for some reason, that was the book that he clung to. Jenny Wheeler: That’s beautiful. Now tell me, Tessa, what is on your desk for the next 12 months? Tell us about Tessa as author looking ahead. What are you working on now and what are you hoping to achieve? Tessa Afshar: Jenny, you’re the first person I’m going to tell about and so your listeners will be the first people who will hear about my next project just a little bit, because right now we’re focusing on The Peasant King, of course, but the project I’m working on right now, it’s called Esther’s Court. It’s a series of three novels of three different women who work for Esther, who work in Esther’s court. The current book is a cook who works for Esther. So Esther is in the background as a support character. You do hear from her, but she’s not the main character. The main characters are these fictional women who work for Esther and are mentored by her. The Peasant King – out now Jenny Wheeler: That sounds fantastic. Now, just getting back to The Peasant King, just tell us the publication date. It’s just about to be published or it’s just been published? It is new, isn’t it? Tessa Afshar: Oh, it’s absolutely new. It officially comes out here on November 7th. And I wanted to clarify, because I think I talked about The Peasant kKng from the perspective of the background history, just for in case the readers or the listeners were interested in that kind of thing. But this is a story that’s told from the point of view of an ordinary woman, Gemma, and a mysterious prince, Asher, who are faced with an impossible task. And they are both these fictional characters who both have to conquer the ghosts of their own past before they can fulfill their destiny. It’s one of my more adventure based novels. There’s a lot of overcoming and as I said, adventure and romance going on because in the background, of course, you have this story of this impossible situation where God has to open these doors of bronze. I think, for me, as much as this was more of an adventure novel, I also hope that my readers… will be able to connect with this God of the impossible. Because we need to remember that he’s a God who opens the doors of bronze in our own lives. Just as they did many centuries ago for the Persian king. And I hope readers will be encouraged to face the ghosts of their own past. And remember that our choices on this earth are of profound kingdom value because I think sometimes we underestimate that. This duology, The Peasant King and the first one, The Hidden Prince play a very special part in my life, possibly because it’s centered in Persia. Where to find Tessa Afshar online Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s beautiful. Now the final question we always ask, do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you either online or in person? Tessa Afshar: I love hearing from my readers. I hang out on Facebook. I hang out on Instagram. My website is tessaafshar.com and I read every single message that doesn’t get caught in my little net online.  I don’t always have time to answer every single email, I’ll be honest, or every single message. I do try sometimes a year later, after you’ve forgotten you ever wrote me anything, you might hear something from me because I do backtrack. And I just love my readers. They mean the world to me. They are… incredible. Some of the things they share, some of their prayers, it’s astonishing. So I want to thank my readers and say, come and hang out with me in any of those places. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. And we’ll have all of those links in the episode show notes as well. Look, thanks so much, Tessa. It’s been wonderful talking to you today. Tessa Afshar: Jenny, you are wonderful. You’re a sweetheart. Thanks for all the great insightful questions and blessings on your listeners. Bye Jenny Wheeler: Thank you. Bye now. Tessa Afshar: Bye. If you enjoyed Tessa Afshar you might also enjoy Lindsey Davis and Ancient Rome Lindsey Davis has had a long and celebrated career as the creator of the Falco and Flavia Albia mysteries set in ancient Rome. But when she started out, publishers weren’t interested in the period.  Nobody, they told her, wanted to read about ancient Rome. She persevered, brought ancient Rome to life, and created a whole new sub-genre in popular fiction with lots of authors following in her footsteps. Hi there, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and today Lindsey talks about her remarkable series – first with 20 Marcus Didius Falco books and now 8 books in a follow-up series with a female investigator, Flavia Albia. LISTEN TO LINDSEY DAVIS Next week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading. Historical mystery author Jim Eldridge and his World War II mysteries, the latest one is Murder at Down Street Station. Who knew that before Winston Churchill moved into the now famous underground War Room banker, he took refuge from the Luftwaffe’s bombs in a disused underground station. Fact is so often stranger than fiction. That’s next week on The Joys of Binge Reading podcast. And just a reminder before we go. If you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

This week on The Joys of Binge Reading. Internationally published Kiwi author, Fiona Sussman. And The Doctor’s Wife, a psychological thriller of a close friendship shattered by illness and unexpected death. Nothing in Stan Andino’s unremarkable life could prepare him for the day he discovered his wife in the living room naked except for a black apron, bleaching out of stain in the carpet that only she can see.  Hi there. I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and on Binge Reading today Fiona talks about writing a story where a group of close friends discover the unexpected about themselves and one another after one of them is diagnosed with severe brain cancer. For Fiona, who was a doctor before becoming a full-time author, it’s her first foray into bringing her experience as a medical practitioner to her fiction. This week’s Giveaway – win a paperback And as our Giveaway this week, we’ve got a paperback copy of The Doctor’s Wife, which is a finalist in New Zealand’s Ngaio Marsh Mystery Awards to be decided later this month. Enter the draw to win a copy of The Doctor’s Wife here https://the-joys-of-binge-reading.ck.page/de8c1c9777 ENTER DRAW TO WIN A COPY OF THE DOCTOR’S WIFE Links to books mentioned in the episode Ngaio Marsh Mystery Awards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngaio_Marsh_Awards Ngaio Marsh; https://www.ngaiomarsh.org/ngaio-marsh Agatha Christie: https://www.agathachristie.com/ Dorothy Sayers: https://www.sayers.org.uk/ Marjorie Allingham: https://www.margeryallinghamcrime.com/biography/ Nadine Gordimer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nadine_Gordimer Athol Fugard: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athol_Fugard Alan Paton: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Paton Geraldine Brooks: https://geraldinebrooks.com/ Kate Greenville: https://kategrenville.com.au/ Elizabeth Strout: https://www.elizabethstrout.com/ Helen Garner: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Garner Graeme Macrae Burnet, This Bloody Project, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeme_Macrae_Burnet Malla Nunn, A Beautiful Place to Die, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malla_Nunn Fiona Kidman, This Mortal Boy, https://fionakidman.com/ And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for friends to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Introducing Kiwi author Fiona Sussman You’ll find Fiona at: Website: www.fionasussman.co.nz (Fiona has suspended her social media for the time being to focus on her writing) Fiona Sussman – The Doctor’s Wife – shortlisted for the Ngaio Marsh Mystery Awards Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Fiona. Hello there, Fiona, and welcome to the show. It’s so good to have you with us. Fiona Sussman: Hi, Jenny. It’s a real treat to be on the Joys of Binge Reading. Thank you so much for inviting me. Jenny Wheeler: Now, it is an international show, but you’re just across a few streets from me. it’s wonderful to be able to talk to a local resident today for a change. We’re talking about The Doctor’s Wife, which is your fourth novel. Often crime novels – and this is categorized as a crime novel, although it’s really, as you’ve said, a domestic thriller – it doesn’t start with a death or a murder or a crime exactly. It starts with simmering tension between normal middle class couple and then quickly followed by a husband coming home and finding his wife doing something very unusual. She is naked except for a black apron. She’s madly scrubbing at the carpet at an invisible stain that nobody but her can see. And this is a very dramatic way to introduce the fact that this woman is suffering from a serious illness. Tell us about the opening. A tense dinner quickly escalates Fiona Sussman: Yes, Jenny. I guess I was very mindful of the fact that this was a domestic thriller I was writing, so I wanted to escalate the tension fairly early on. The book does open in a regular setting for friends out to dinner that I think many readers will be able to identify with. There are just hints of possibly all not being quite right. Stan has noticed a few changes in his wife of late, but his friend Austin in private reassures him that in fact, these are probably just likely due to his wife going through menopause. And so the readers fears are possibly allayed at that point. And then we see Stan arriving home the following day, to this frightening, somewhat terrifying scene, his wife completely naked, acting in this rather bizarre way, scrubbing, bleaching the lounge carpet. And his whole world tips on its axis, really. What I was really wanting to convey was the terror of finding someone you think, you know really well doing something inexplicable that you don’t really have a reason, reason for why they’re doing it.  And, this, in many ways, ushers in a theme that runs throughout the book of characters behaving in ways that you don’t expect them to. And Carmen’s cancer is, yes, I guess is what you would normally find would be the body in the opening scene. This is a frightening scene, but in a different way. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, and she is diagnosed quite soon after that with brain cancer. You’ve said that it was partly inspired by a fascination that you have with how changes in the brain can affect identity. And certainly this diagnosis – I know that not all diagnosis of brain cancer will result in this kind of series of events – but it certainly does set the tone for a lot of the action that happens afterwards. Tell us a bit about that fascination with brain and identity. Examining personal fears in writing Fiona Sussman: Jenny, I think, reflecting back, often one looks as to what the genesis of a story is, because obviously one’s subconscious works in the background and I think that this novel grew out of a fear or sort of preoccupation I have with losing my own mind. I do have quite a bad memory. I think I’ve over the time found myself taking that story to its completion. I’ve always been aware of how the brain houses the very essence of who we are and that, physically a person’s body may undergo quite significant change. Someone might have a limb amputated or they may have their gallbladder removed or be burnt in a fire. And yes, that would impact on and traumatize them, but the very essence, their personality would largely remain unchanged. Whereas the converse is that someone may look identical for all intents and purposes, but some sort of disease process within the brain is actually altering who they are. And so that’s a fascination I have had over the years. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. I read somewhere that you consider this to be in a sense, your first crime novel, but you won an award with your second book. The Last Time We Spoke in the Ngaio Marsh Mystery Awards in New Zealand, which are coming up again in another six weeks as we speak. The Doctor’s Wife is a shortlisted for the awards again this year, but you won that a couple of years ago. And I just wondered how you see in your mind the difference between a mystery and a crime novel. The Last Time We Spoke – an award winner Fiona Sussman: Yes. I think, initially when my earlier book, The Last Time We Spoke, won the Ngaio Marsh, I was delighted, but actually baffled. I thought, oh, gosh, no, I’ve written a social justice novel. I hadn’t conceived of it as a crime novel. That really was more a measure of my limited understanding of what fell under the banner of crime fiction. And tas a result of that award, I got invited to go over to Bloody Scotland, which is this incredible crime writing festival held in Stirling. And it was there that I discovered the amazing breadth of writing that does fall under the genre. You’ve got your cozy murder mysteries and your police procedurals and your psychological thrillers all the way to your more literary crime. I realized at that point that my book, The Last Time We Spoke fell into the more literary crime aspect of crime fiction, where it was using crime as a prism to really explore issues in society. I came home so buoyed by the warmth which had been embraced there that I set myself the challenge of writing for myself what I considered a more traditional crime novel. And so The Doctor’s Wife is… Yes, it’s that domestic thriller. It’s a whodunit. And we have Detective Ramesh Bandara and Hilary Stark who come on board to solve the mystery. And from that point of view, they both fall under the banner of crime fiction, but are quite different in the approach I had to go about in writing them. Writing a ‘whodunit’ required change of process Jenny Wheeler: Yes, and you also have commented that you approached them when you were writing them in quite different ways. Could you expand a little on what that difference was? Fiona Sussman: Yes. With The Doctor’s Wife being a whodunit, so normally I’m not a planner. I tend to sit down and I something will move me viscerally, and that’s often the emotional impetus for a novel. Then I write into it with a rough sense of where the novel’s going. But with The Doctor’s Wife, a whodunit, I had to have a very clear sense of who the villain was, and so I had to begin at the end and almost dismantle the story backwards, a bit like reverse engineering to make sure all the clues added up. There was still flexibility. I found that as my characters filled their skin, they sometimes wanted to take the story in slightly different directions, but I had to be far more structured because this was going to be a whodunit. Jenny Wheeler: Austin is one of that group of four friends that we’re talking about. He’s a family GP, and at the beginning, he reassures Stan that there’s nothing wrong with his wife. You yourself worked as a GP and this, I gather, is the first book you’ve really allowed that background to infiltrate in any way. Tell us a bit about that and about the switch from. GP to writing. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Writing about medicine as a former doctor Fiona Sussman: Yes Jenny, probably first and foremost, I should say, I am a doctor and I am a doctor’s wife, and this is not at all about my life. But yes, it’s quite interesting because I’ve raised medical issues in my short story writing before, but never in a novel. When I sat down to write The Doctor’s Wife, I had a quiet chuckle to myself because I realized that there was going to be this medical backdrop. And I thought, oh, at long last, Fiona, you’re tying together these two disparate professions. But for me, what was really satisfying about writing this book was that I could navigate the territory. It was familiar territory. The jargon and the terminology were familiar, but I think more than it drawing on any specifics of my past work as a GP, it was rather tapping into an understanding of human nature that practicing medicine afforded me. When people are unwell, they’re often at their most raw and honest. And for me, it was always a huge privilege. I was very humbled to journey alongside people at such a time. You really are privy to human nature at its most raw. I hope that as I was creating these characters, I was importing that understanding from my medical background, more than anything else. I did still need to go on and do some research. I had to speak to various specialists, but as I say, it was quite refreshing to be writing something and be able to navigate the territory with ease. Jenny Wheeler: Do you miss anything about medicine yourself at all? Medicine gave way to creative urge Fiona Sussman: Oh, very much. It was a very hard decision when I made the decision to step away from it for a while. I really have come full circle. In a nutshell, I grew up in a publisher’s home and really fell in love with the written word at a very early age and was all set to do something with words. I don’t know if I knew I would become a writer, but I had certainly written my first play for Brownies at the age of seven, but then my final year of school, I was all ready to go on and do a Bachelor of Arts. My father was diagnosed with stomach cancer and we had such a superb GP looking after us. He was just a remarkable human being. And so after I completed my Bachelor of Arts, I thought actually I want to go on and pursue a career in medicine, which I loved really from the day I began studying it. I am quite a perfectionist and for me it was a vocation really. I had to give it my all. And when we moved to New Zealand and I had a young family… I had completed my medical studies here in New Zealand, but when a young family came along, I felt quite conflicted because I wanted to give my all to being a mom as well as my career. And at the same time, I had been missing a creative outlet for so long. I’d been reading medical journals, science papers… And so when my family were young, I decided to take a year out and write a book. And one year became two, and that became 20. But I have certainly missed medicine very much along the way. I have appeased some of that by helping my husband establish a charitable surgical service, but I haven’t really practiced clinically now for almost 20 years. Poised, mysterious character with key role Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting just getting back to The Doctor’s Wife. I did notice one thing. There are these four key characters really, apart from the police who also have quite a role in it, but two married couples, Austin and Tibbie and Stan and Carmen. Now, Tibbie is a key character as well. Every chapter in the book is prefaced by a name and that chapter is mainly just devoted to telling the story in, from the point of view of that character, including the two police officers. But after I’d finished it, I suddenly realized. Tibbie, who is a key character. I don’t think she’s got any scene herself, does she? I went back and looked and I couldn’t find one. And then I asked myself, I wondered why you left her silent rather than giving her a voice. Fiona Sussman: It’s very interesting question, Jenny. Firstly, she actually does have, there is one chapter devoted to her when she arranges the dinner party for Carmen and Stan to come and the young boys are the waiters. And she’s trying to recreate this monthly dinner out when Carmen can’t go out to a restaurant because she’s so unwell. So there is, but you’re quite right. Compared to all the other characters, she only gets that small chance to give us an insight into the workings of how she views the world. She is a very poised, contained character. And in fact, we discover over time that she also has held on to some secrets. There are some people one meets that one can never quite… there’s always a little element of mystery around them and one can never quite know what’s going on in her head. I wanted people to have a sense of who she was. And we do also realize who she is from how she behaves. Through her interactions with others. But we only do have that sight glimpse into her head in that one chapter. So yes, you’re quite right. Ngaio Mystery Awards finalist for second time Jenny Wheeler: And yes, that is true. There are people who can remain a mystery, even if you get to know them really quite well, they don’t reveal much of themselves. So yeah, that’s very good point. As we’ve mentioned, The Doctor’s Wife has been shortlisted for the Ngaio Marsh Awards this year. These have become really well respected, the mystery awards in New Zealand. You’ve already won it once before. Tell us a bit about Ngaio Marsh for people who have never really heard the name before. Fiona Sussman: Dame Ngaio Marsh was one of what we call the queen of crime writing. One of the four woman who were amazing crime writers during the Golden Age of Detective Fiction. We’re talking about Agatha Christie Dorothy Sayers, and Marjorie Ellingham. Along with Ngaio Marsh. She was one of those wrote in that era. And I think she wrote in excess of 30 detective novels. She grew up in Christchurch. And so hence the writing award is named after her. The awards began were the idea of a former lawyer and journalist Craig Sisterson, who currently lives in the UK, and he is a great fan of crime fiction He noticed we had no awards in New Zealand to recognize great crime writing, unlike all around the rest of the world where it’s a genre that is respected and nurtured. So Craig really took it upon himself in 2010 to launch these awards and he has done just an incredible amount of work in championing New Zealand crime writing. I think crime writers were often considered the poorer cousin of literary fiction, and he has just done so much to bring New Zealand crime writing to the attention of the rest of the world. And so the Ngaio Marsh Crime Awards was his baby. It is judged internationally and it has just grown, I believe, from strength to strength. A social justice novel about home invasion Jenny Wheeler: The Last Time We Spoke, which was the one that won the award in, was it 2017… you saw it as a social justice novel at the time, but it was based on the idea of a home invasion and it’s long term consequences for everyone involved. And I wondered about the inspiration behind that book. Did it relate to current affairs in New Zealand at the time? Or how did you get excited about that idea? Fiona Sussman: Yes. There were a spate of quite brutal home invasions here in the nineties that caught my attention. They were covered relentlessly in the media. Something that stood out was the youth of the perpetrators, some in their early teens. And they’d be covered relentlessly in the media and then often the story would suddenly be dropped – abruptly – to make way for the next sensational bit of news. And I remember at the time not being able to move on so quickly from each of these stories. I realized that they had left their impact and very early on I had a lot of questions. Like how could someone who’d possibly been a victim of such a crime, maybe lost someone in the crime, how would they go on to navigate a meaningful life there afterwards. But also, what had happened in a youngster’s life to see them set on a path to murder at the age of 13 or 14, And very early on, I had these two voices in my head, one of a middle aged farmer’s wife and one of a young gang prospecting teen. The book opens with a very brutal home invasion that sees their worlds collide. And then we follow in the aftermath. The trajectory of each of their lives until they once again coincide with some surprising consequences. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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that people often say is a debut novel, where you’re taking very much your own experience thus far in life. Tell us a bit about that book, and I gather it took you quite a few years to finish it. Fiona Sussman: Yes, actually Jenny it came out in the UK as Shifting Colours, and then it was subsequently sold to the US, They wanted to give it a different title so then it became Another Woman’s Daughter. Firstly it was the novel I guess closest to my heart because it was the novel I learned the craft. I honed my craft writing it. It was also my first opportunity to shout out from the rooftops my abhorrence for the apartheid system under which I had grown up. And so from that point of view, I guess it was autobiographical, but the story itself was not. It really tells the tale of a little black girl, Miriam, who captures the heart of a white couple when her mother is working as a maid for them in the suburbs of Johannesburg. And after the first township uprisings, this couple decides to leave South Africa and they are childless. They ask if they can take Miriam with them. them. And the decision Miriam’s mother makes is one she makes out of love. She realizes that her daughter would have more opportunity away from the appalling regime. But in fact, it’s a decision that will come to haunt all the characters. And on one level, it’s the story of an enduring love between a mother and a daughter. But on another level, it’s an exploration of identity and what comprises our identity and certainly extracting someone from their culture and their country, how that impacts upon someone. It was a story very dear to my heart. It did take a long time. It was the story I started working on when I stepped out of medicine. And 10 years later, I would finally get the call that I had a publisher in London who wanted to publish it. In between, lots happened. Multiple rejections before success The book had many reincarnations. I wrote a lot of short stories as I learned the craft. I went back to university to do a master’s of creative writing. The book had multiple rejection slips along the way. I often hear, people talk about authors being an ‘overnight success’ and often that the overnight success actually means 10 years hard labour. Jenny Wheeler: Do you think that being bicultural in the sense that you are an immigrant New Zealander gives you a special eye for your fiction? I have a little private idea that writers generally often work as outsiders in their community. That they’re a little bit on the edge looking in and that maybe is magnified when you have grown up somewhere else and then emigrate. Do you feel that you notice details that other locally based authors might miss? Fiona Sussman: Possibly, Jenny. I think that inevitably, you bring into your writing one’s world experiences. Having to translocate to a different country might make you more aware of things that I guess some people might be familiar with and have that almost complacency about, because they’re familiar with it. They are different and new to somebody coming in. I’ve been here 33 years. My children are Kiwi. And yet, as you can hear by my accent, people sometimes say to me, ‘Oh, where did you arrive?’ And I’ll say ‘arrive from where?’ And then I realized that, to a point, I am always slightly an outsider and I think sometimes when you are navigating that periphery, maybe you do have you are able to look in at things with a perspective, that possibly if you’re right in the middle of it in the fray, you don’t necessarily see. But I don’t know. I think that I suppose all I would say is that when I grew up in South Africa, there was such confronting challenges and discussions and history in the making that I guess those big and often frightening questions were often very present for me. Possibly I imported that into my writing, but I wouldn’t necessarily say I have a different, I have a certainly not a better perspective than a Kiwi. It’s just a different one. A key turning point in Fiona’s career Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Has there been a key turning point in your creative career, a meeting of a mentor or something that took you to the next level or gave you hope when you felt like you wanted to give up. Fiona Sussman: Yes, the one the most obvious one which a lot of writers aspire to and without a doubt does make a difference is the day I became a published author. That was for me that seal of approval that we are all seeking, that endorsement because the nature of our work is lonely and flowers are few and far between. That’s where I was beset with self-doubt. As soon as I had that seal of approval, I think I automatically almost became a better writer, just by virtue of having the confidence to experiment and to take risks. But I think I do recall in my Master’s course, my mentor saying to me,’ you are a writer Fiona when you take yourself seriously as one.’ And I realized that even though we all aspire to being published and you know obviously for many people that is the goal because you want an audience for your work. It’s just really understanding that if you’re taking your work seriously, and you enjoy the process, then you are a writer. For me, that was quite a liberating thing for someone to say, and certainly ease some of that desire and stress to just get my book name in print. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And I suppose your first novel being an internationally located one and living in New Zealand, you inevitably really had to seek an international publisher, didn’t you? Which is harder from the side of the world. How did that fall into place? Did your dad’s past experience help to create a pathway for you there? A story that ‘deserved to see the light of day’ Fiona Sussman: No, not at all, really, Jenny, because he had passed away when I was 17. That was 20 or 30 odd years before. And I did approach New Zealand publishers as well. It was an interesting time. It was a time when you submitted in paper, so you would send off manuscripts. There was this unspoken rule that you only ever approached one publisher at a time. I didn’t really know even, there were agents, some publishers took unsolicited manuscripts, but it was really trial and error and determination that I just wanted it to happen. I sent out to numerous, to agents, to publishers. I did have a strong belief in the story. I believed that it was a story that should see the light of day. And I think that it was just, yeah, some chance. I certainly racked up a lot of rejection slips along the way. What was lovely is that Allison and Busby, who took the book on, were based in London and half of the book is set in the UK. And so there was this resonance. But then the book did, as I say, go to the States and was then under the title of Another Woman’s Daughter. And it was just luck, really luck and persistence. I was doggedly jpursuing it and sending it out all the time. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Look, we’re starting to come to the time, end of our time together. We always like to ask our authors about their own reading taste because this is Binge Reading. We’ve got a lot of passionate readers who are looking for their next great read. Tell us what you like to read for your own leisure and pleasure, and if there’s something you want to recommend. Fiona Sussman: Yes. I have a little chuckle because my daughter used to say to me, ‘oh, mom, please write something happy’ because I often tend to write quite deep and challenging books, and I guess that’s what I enjoy reading as well. I enjoy social justice novels. I enjoy morally complex issues being discussed. My very first literary heroes were really those brave authors, Nadine Gordimer, Athol Fugard, and Alan Paton, who were using their peons to try and bring about change in South Africa. That has continued. I love works of Geraldine Brooks and Kate Greenville. The two authors, I think, who just drill down so superbly into human nature are Elizabeth Stroud and Helen Gardner. What Fiona Sussman is reading now They just say things with such simplicity, but they really resonate with me. I read Horse recently, which I absolutely loved by Geraldine Brooks. I love books like The Secret River by Kate Granville. And I do read crime novels. I don’t tend to read series. For me it’s more one offs and often it is works that tell me something about the society in which the crime has been committed. I remember Graeme Macrae Burnet’s book, This Bloody Project set in a crofting community in the 1800s. Malla Nunn’s book, A Beautiful Place to Die, which is set in South Africa, just pre apartheid. Yes, quite an eclectic mix, but Fiona Kidman as well, This Mortal Boy, I just love that. So quite eclectic, but it does need to be something gritty I can get my teeth into and cause me to ponder about humanity. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fabulous. Looking back down the tunnel of time, is there, if there was one thing you’d like to change about the way your creative career has unfolded, what would it be? Fiona Sussman: Gosh I think that to be honest. each step of the way has been invaluable looking back. It may not have necessarily been the way I would have, chosen for it to evolve. Probably the one thing I would have done differently is when I took a year out to write a book, I wouldn’t have told as many people because, within a couple of weeks you’d bump into someone and they’d say, ‘oh, when is your novel coming out?’ And, I’d have to say actually I’m on chapter two of the first draft. It’s not very good. I think continually of hearing myself articulate that I  didn’t have anything yet made it a harder journey. I just felt like I was a failure in fact, and I would been better quietly beavering on my own. I wouldn’t have had that pressure, which I did feel initially, but overall, it’s been an amazing journey. I feel incredibly privileged to be able to write. I’m always surprised when someone writes to me, I think, ‘oh gosh, someone’s read my book.’ Beause when I’m sitting in my study, it just feels like me and my stories, The Doctor’s Wife may be headed for screens Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I can quite identify, you’d be feeling like you were articulating failure all the time and almost. ‘I’m a fake.’ They think I’ve got a novel coming out next week. Fiona Sussman: And I think in those early years, at that point, I’d stepped out of medicine. You define yourself by your work. I wasn’t practicing medicine and yet I wasn’t an author and people would say, what are you? I couldn’t say I was a writer because they would ask what have you published? And I had nothing published. And so I think with hindsight, if someone said, look, ‘it will happen with time, just enjoy the journey.’ With most of life, we want to look back with retrospect and say, oh, if only I’d known, I wouldn’t have been quite as stressed about it. Jenny Wheeler: It’s funny because even the most successful authors have their ups and downs in their career as well. You can be looking like an amazing success in one period. And then suddenly things just go off the boil a little bit. iI is like that tall he way through. Authors will always give you the feedback that it’s a very turbulent sort of career to try and negotiate. Fiona Sussman: Absolutely. So right. Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for you, for Fiona as author, what have you got on your laptop over the next 12 months that you’re addressing? Fiona Sussman: There’s quite a lot of a lot been happening with The Doctors Wife. I’ve been doing a lot of talks, going to festivals. In fact, I’m off to Sydney next week to the Bad, it’s called the Bad Sydney Crime Writing Festival which is lovely. But I am writing – which is a first for me – I’m writing a second instalment of The Doctor’s Wife – now going to be a series. Detective Ramesh Bandara and Hilary Stock are going to solve another crime. This really grew out of we’ve had a bit of film interest in The Doctor’s Wife, which is very exciting and may well all come to naught, but there is an interest in that thread continuing. I am halfway through. It’s another novel set in Aotearoa, New Zealand, and I’m having a lot of fun with it. So, keeping me hard at it. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The Doctor’s Wife sequel is coming Jenny Wheeler: That’s great, because there was a very slow burn romance developing between those two, and you sense this really unfinished business at the end of the book. Fiona Sussman: Yes, I think they’re going to have to certainly – that relationship will be explored a little bit further, but who knows how it will turn out. Jenny Wheeler: I just spoke, in fact, we just posted this week, Andrea Penrose, who does Regency Era Mysteries, and she’s just recently published Book Seven in her Wrexford and Sloane series. She’s had a couple who they hated each other in the first book, and then they very gradually started to respect one another, and things developed a little bit more seriously by about book four. The reviewers all comment on the slow burning romance. You might be still doing that in Book Five! Fiona Sussman: Who knows? Jenny Wheeler: So, the final question we always ask. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Fiona Sussman: Oh, I very much so Jenny and it I guess goes back to that thing; that I’m always delighted when I receive an email or a message from someone who’s been reading one of my books. And it makes the writing journey which is often so solitary, worthwhile. I do have a website. www.fionasussman. co.nz, which I update and I have news there and a contact page. Just very recently, and that’s really as of the past two or three months, I have come off social media for a break. And it was again, it was a hard decision to do. I did find that it was becoming very distracting, and that it was taking me away from what I really want to do a lot of. Whilst it was great to be in that almost direct contact with readers it was, at times it also doesn’t feel to me that authentic. It feels like a quite self serving, It’s a very curated way of presenting one’s life, and so at this point I’ve just taken a wee break from it and it almost felt like coming off coffee. I suddenly felt like, gosh, I felt as though I really wanted to go straight back on it. But in fact, it’s been very useful and I make an effort, as I say, with my website. Where to find Fiona Sussman on line Websites can often just languish, but I update it very regularly and I do respond, very promptly to people’s messages. And then when I’m at talks out in the public, whenever I give talks I’m delighted to talk to and engage with readers in person. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. I think a lot of writers, social media has just become so diversified that actually you can’t do everything. You just can’t do everything. Fiona Sussman: yes, Jenny Wheeler: It also means that each channel has become that much less. absolutely necessary to have becausethey’re spread over such a wide range now anyways. Fiona Sussman: Exactly. And if they’re fascinated, you can head down all these rabbit warrens of fascinating information out there for writers, but in fact, what one can end up doing is doing a huge amount of reading about writing and events that are happening and actually, doing less and less writing, which is the thing I love the most. It was just a decision. I have just suspended my accounts. I haven’t deleted them yet, but for me, it’s worked well. I can also put my head down and really get back stuck into my work. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. All the very best with the Ngaio Marsh Awards. I think the dinner is late November, isn’t it? Fiona Sussman: That’s right. Jenny Wheeler: We’ll be watching with interest to see how you go. All the best. Fiona Sussman: Thank You. It’s been such a pleasure. Thank you so much for your time and your interest. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful Fiona. Fiona Sussman: Thank you. If you enjoyed Fiona you might also appreciate another Kiwi thriller… https://thejoysofbingereading.com/michael-bennett-dark-kiwi-thriller/ Next week on Binge Reading TESSA AFSHAR and “seriously good” inspirational fiction Next Week on Binge Reading: Tessa’s latest book. The Peasant King takes us back to sixth century BC Babylon and demonstrates what Publishers’ Weekly calls her “Amazing talent for packing action and intrigue into the biblical setting for modern readers.” That’s next week on The Joys Of Binge Reading. And remember if you enjoy the show, do leave us a review, so others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

Andrea Penrose is a USA Today, bestselling author of Regency era historical fiction, including the acclaimed Wrexford and Sloane mystery series. Andrea is published internationally in ten languages. She’s a three time Rita award finalist and is the recipient of numerous writing awards, including two Daphne du Maurier awards for Historical Mystery.  Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler and today on Binge Reading, Andrea talks about Murder At The Merton Library, # 7 in her best-selling Wrexford and Sloane series. Responding to an urgent plea from a troubled family friend, the Earl of Wrexford journeys to Oxford, only to find the reclusive university librarian has been murdered and a rare manuscript has gone missing. In the words of one reviewer, it’s another of Andrea’s “well-thought-out mysteries with early forensic science, great details of the era, and a slow burning attraction that creates a compulsive read.” October Romance Giveaway Searching for your next favorite story? Look no further! These bestselling authors have teamed up to offer a delightful selection of new books, including Hope Redeemed, #6 in the Of Gold & Blood mystery series. Hope Redeemed is a Spanish romance mystery novella – She’s grieving her intended’s death. He’s loving her from afar. But will a long-kept secret spoil their chance at everlasting happiness? DOWNLOAD FREE BOOKS And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for people to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Link to items mentioned in this episode Sir John Soanes Regency townhouse:  https://regencyredingote.wordpress.com/2016/11/04/sir-john-soanes-house-a-slice-of-regency-london/ The Splendid and the Vile by Eric Larson https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51187948-the-splendid-and-the-vile?ref=nav_sb_ss_1_21 Allison Montclair, and the Bainbridge Sparks series https://us.macmillan.com/author/allisonmontclair C.S. Harris, the Sebastian St Cyr Regency mysteries https://csharris.net/sebastian.php Where to find Andrea Penrose online Website: www.andreapenrose.com Instagram:  @andreapenrosebooks Word Wenches blog: https://wordwenches.typepad.com/word_wenches/ Introducing Andrea Penrose mystery author Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Andrea. Hello there, Andrea, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Andrea Penrose – Regency mysteries Andrea Penrose: Thank you so much for having me here. Jenny. I’m really excited to chat with you. Jenny Wheeler: You’re a best-selling author of the Wrexford and Sloane Regency Mystery Series and the next one, number seven, I think it’s due to be published next week, isn’t it? Andrea Penrose: It actually in the U. S. came out last week. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, great. Murder in the Merton Library, – for those who may not quite remember, the Merton Library is one of the most ancient and revered libraries in Britain, at Oxford University. So, you’ve got a great location to start, but you did start out writing romance, didn’t you? How did you get called into doing the mysteries? Andrea Penrose: I really liked writing romance, but a story really is about the relationship, how the 2 people fall in love, and I found myself more and more interested in developing a greater psychological depth with characters. The idea that a mystery usually will have a series and we’ll have the protagonist, the same protagonist in each book. You have a chance to develop the characters and plunge into the depths of friendship and vulnerabilities and how they tie in with their friends. A mystery tests your sense of trust of who you’re working with, who you can believe. You question yourself about a lot of things. And I felt it gives me a bigger range to develop the characters and really have a little more complexity and the depth. The story doesn’t just revolve around a love story, even though there can be parts of that. There are definite emotions that develop in my mysteries, but I just feel it gives me a broader canvas on which to paint a story. A master of the ‘slow burning romance’ Jenny Wheeler: Yes, some of your reviewers have used that phrase, “slow burning romance.” You have several couples who are taking quite a long time to get to the critical point where they might legitimize their relationship, but some authors complain that once they have legitimized the relationship, it’s then quite hard to maintain the momentum because the romance reader understands, okay, they’ve had the Happy Ever After, what is there left to be excited about? How do you handle that part of it? Andrea Penrose: That is a real challenge, I think. I try and think about, okay, now you have a family, you have responsibilities that you didn’t have when you were basically independent and alone. And I think most of us understand that we know there are transitions like that. I think readers can maybe appreciate that slow burn can still be there, Relationships deepen and they go through bumps in the road, which I try and have. But I also think developing that sense of how do you adjust to now? Suddenly you put yourself in danger and there are a lot of people who are depending on you and you have to figure out the consequences of that. And I think we all relate to that as family as you develop, you broaden the family you have. Children become involved and I do have two urchins who are basically have become wards of the Earl and Charlotte. And so, I’m trying to develop some of the complexity of those issues too. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I love Hawk and Raven. They’re a great addition to the series. Wrexford and Sloane, they’re both extremely individualistic, passionate, and strong characters. Give us a feeling of how they met and tell us a bit about them. Romance got off to an unpromising start Andrea Penrose: They really didn’t like each other when they first met. Charlotte is a satirical cartoonist which in Regency times was really like the late night social commentators we have in this country. It’d be Jimmy Kimmel and Trevor Noah and people like that. But they told the public what was really going on. They would reveal the scandals in the government or what the rich and famous were misbehaving, or the banks would have financial difficulties. So they were the people who kept society honest. And Charlotte Is doing a satirical cartoon on Wrexford, because he’s having a feud with a very pious cleric. And when the cleric is found murdered, he is obviously the prime suspect. Charlotte has seen the murder scene before any of the authorities got there, and she has a feeling he’s not guilty. She’s seen a few things. He somehow, even though she’s very private, she works under a pen name because a woman could never criticize the government but he manages though. He’s very clever. He manages to track her down and gives her an ultimatum. She was going to help prove him innocent or he’s going to unmask her. She really feels she has no choice, but she hates him, at first But they come to respect each other because she’s an artist, he’s a scientist. They both see things. They observe things very carefully, but they see things in very different ways. He’s all logic. She uses her intuition a lot of time. They come to have a grudging friendship because they really admire each other’s passion for justice, and admire how they unravel a mystery. It’s very different than how they would do it themselves, but they see that their skills complement each other. A brilliant scientific mind – and lots of new inventions Jenny Wheeler: For those people who might like to start at the beginning of the series, that first book called Murder on Black Swan Lane, isn’t it? So just if people are looking for it, that’s what they need to look for. Each book is keyed around some of the social and scientific developments that are going on around them at the time. As you’ve mentioned, Wrexford’ has got this brilliant scientific mind. You go into some of that stuff in a great deal of detail. It is fascinating, but for somebody who isn’t a scientist, you think, oh, wow, I’m learning a lot here. Andrea Penrose: It is ironic because the last formal science class I took was like ninth grade biology, but I actually have become fascinated by science because in doing a lot of reading about the Regency, the scientists and the artists of the time, the poets, the painters, they felt they were kindred souls. They saw each other as creative, trying to understand the mysteries of the world. They saw beauty; the poets would see beauty in the stars, and so did the people studying the heavens to see how the stars work. It’s really fascinating. But the other thing I love about it is that it I find such a parallel to our modern times. The Regency really is considered the birth of the modern world and the Industrial Revolution. Suddenly, there are steam engines, electricity. They’re beginning to understand these phenomena and it’s changing everyday life, disrupting it, and people are frightened. They’re losing their jobs, like the mill workers. Technology is disrupting their society, and it’s putting pressure on. And I’m thinking, things don’t change. Here we are feeling much of the same angst with this world that seems to be changing every day. The tension and excitement of New Industrial Age While I love Jane Austen and the quiet country house parties, the Regency really has a lot of that tension and excitement. Things are really changing in all aspects of society. And that really interested me to try and work into my stories because I think readers – they’re escaping to a wonderful time in the past, but I’m showing that they were dealing with many of the same fears and anxieties that we are. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. It’s just terrific. In this book, the Merton Library book, you draw in the international race to get ocean going steamships, which I never really thought about before. And in earlier books, you did one about medical discoveries and what they were getting out of plants. You also did one about fraudulent trading bonds, both of which have terrific parallels with our own time. The first one is Murder at the Botanic Gardens. That’s the one with the medical discovery and then there’s the trading bonds one, Murder on Queens Landing. You give a very good picture of what Regency England was like.  You say that you got drawn into the Regency period because of your love of Jane Austen. What, as you’ve gone along, do you find you love about it most now? Andrea Penrose: I just find it incredibly exciting in so many ways. You had music, art, politics, so much of the world they were beginning to see things in very different ways. Romanticism was developing very much. You had Beethoven writing these incredibly emotional and personal symphonies. Poetry was becoming more personal. The individual was coming to the fore and feeling, I can really express myself. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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People were beginning to press the rules. You had Mary Wollstonecraft writing the first feminist manifestos. People were finding a voice and saying, ‘Hey I have an opinion about this. And I think we need to change a lot of things in the world.’ I find that a really exciting, to have gone beyond just the balls and the tea parties, which were very much a part of the Regency, but there’s so much more there, too and both darker, dark side and light side, too. Jenny Wheeler: Sure. Now, introducing Raven and Hawk gave you the opportunity to also delve into the seamier side of London in a way that some of the other Regency books don’t get into. There’s a lot of scenes around the docks and you have. a very strong sense of location. You go into detail about where the warehouse on this particular dock is located. So you feel as if you’ve walked those streets. And I just wondered if you could live in Regency London, you’d find your way around it pretty successfully, it seems to me. Andrea Penrose: I really do love going. London is so wonderful to me too. There’s so many small esoteric museums. There’s actually a museum of the Dockland and to go there and they’ve replicated the alleyways and the shops that would be in it. And so, you can learn so much. The Museum of London has, Vauxhall Garden, with little scenes set up. You really can get a sense -when I go over there – I just walk all through the neighborhoods. I do research, trying to find what are some of the small museums that maybe one doesn’t tend to hear about? There’s a wonderful science museum there. There’s, of Sir John Soane’s house, where you can actually go in and get a sense of what a Regency townhouse was like. Authenticity in an old Harvard map I really do try and see as much as I can about what I want to write about. Jenny Wheeler: Actually, it sounds to me like you’d be well set up to do one of those books that are the guide to Wrexham and Sloane and go into all the different places. Andrea Penrose: Right. Jenny Wheeler: It would probably turn into a very popular tourist guide. Andrea Penrose: That would be fun. I love research. I love even going online and looking at manuscripts. And I’m very specific, I have a wonderful old map that I’ve bookmarked at Harvard –  one of our universities here – in their library. And it is this wonderful, detail. You can zoom in and literally see alley, the little branches of the alleyways off streets. So when I decide that Raven and Hawk are going to make a journey, I literally pull up the map and I go, oh, that’s fun. I’ll have them go through Covent Garden and down through Whitehall, and so I have fun doing that. Jenny Wheeler: And that tactile quality does come across. Charlotte has had a rather unconventional backstory that you’ve fed in as we go along. Now we won’t spoil anything too much, but she’s, at the beginning, socially unacceptable. Andrea Penrose: She’s on the very fringes of respectability. And yes, I think it’s fun. I’ve unpacked a lot of Charlotte and in this latest book, Murder at Merton Library, I’m beginning to reveal some of Wrexford’s background and that’s actually going to continue. I have just turned in Book #8,   but no, I’m not going to give any hints, but I find it fun to slowly reveal a little more of their complexities and their depths and what some of their vulnerabilities are. # 9 in the series coming September 2024 Jenny Wheeler: And do we have a title for that next book yet? Andrea Penrose: We do, it is called Murder at King’s Crossing. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, great. And that’ll be out probably about a year from now. Will it? Andrea Penrose: It will be out in September of 24. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s great. You also have another Regency series, the Lady Arianna series, tell us a little about that series. Andrea Penrose: That tends to be a little more action, and political oriented. They do a lot of traveling to solve mysteries. You’ll see them at Waterloo and on Elba before Waterloo. In the first book, there’s a very adversarial relationship with the Minister of State Security. In other words, the spy master of Britain, who thinks Arianna has come to Britain for nefarious reasons. And she encounters. the Earl of Saybrook in the course of seeking revenge for her father’s murder, who was a disgraced aristocrat, fled to the West Indies and she and he were exiles, basically. She grew up in the West Indies. Her father is murdered. She’s 14 or 15 and has to fend for herself. So, she’s had a very rough and tumble growing up. Her back story is a little rough and she comes back to Britain because she thinks she knows who framed her father and murdered him. In the course of unraveling that, she meets the Earl of Saybrook, and they solve the murder, she was right in who she guessed and that’s solved, but they have her run in with the spymaster of Britain who was then manipulates them into doing a few other things, Lady Arianna moves at high diplomatic levels It’s fun because I get to take them to the Congress of Vienna, which was the big peace conference after Napoleon is first deposed. and then they end up on Elba, Waterloo. In the last book, they’ve gone to Russia to deal with a problem with the Tsar of Russia. And so, it’s fun to be able to research and do something a little different in that they’re always solving a political problem for Britain. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. How do you face up to the very favorite question for a historical fiction author and that is the balancing fact and fiction. Andrea Penrose: I try and really stay very close to facts, to what has happened. I try and make sure that I don’t take liberties with, say. the Battle of Waterloo, the ball, the Duchess of Richmond’s Ball. I’ve really researched all those things, and when I put my fictional characters in there, I usually will have some cameos. I’ll have Wellington be at the ball and some of the other generals who actually were there. I try and mix that and then, in an author’s note, I will explain the mystery they were solving is fictional they’re after a document or something that, that is purely fiction, but gives them a reason to be in certain places and solve a mystery for the government. I do try and put an author’s note and let a reader know what is fact and fiction, because I like to know that when I’m reading a book. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, it is fascinating It’s particularly relevant now though, because you have also got another new book coming out and it’s your first move into fictionalized biography. Andrea Penrose: Yes. But still in Regency times. My publisher had asked me if I’d be interested in doing one, and at first I was really, I wasn’t sure. I thought fictional biography, it seems like such a contradiction in terms. And then I read a few and I understood more about it. Lady Hester Stanhope – an extraordinary woman I wrote about Lady Hester Stanhope, who is from a very prominent, incredible family, actually, her uncle and her grandfather were British Prime Minister,s very famous prime ministers of Britain. there are two other prime ministers, there’s a foreign secretary, they’re war heroes. The intertwine, the Stanhopes, the Grenvilles and the Pitts. They are just an amazing story. And she just wanted to be at the table with the men and she was smart enough and clever enough, but obviously she was swimming against the tide. She has some very interesting triumphs, but also terrible disasters, simply because she was striving to be someone that society wouldn’t allow and I found her fascinating. I didn’t think I was going to like her. She’s very sharp and acerbic and sometimes makes decisions that you think are a little impetuous, but she also has her courage and her grit and her resilience, especially her ability to suffer and still have a belief in her dream. I found that really pretty amazing. I decided to take on the project and it was fascinating. She had three tumultuous love affairs with very famous men. That was interesting because reading about them as well as her, it’s lucky in that she’s from such a prominent family, a lot of letters, her letters exist, so I could read them and I got a real sense of her. Her sense of humor, her sharp tongue, she could be very sarcastic, and so that gave me a feel, because I wrote it in first person, I felt it really called for that. And trying to figure out how she would be relating to some of these things that happened to her was interesting. I hope I have done her justice. But it was a story that was better than any novelist could make up, really, her real life story. I found a wonderful scholarly biography on her. The Diamond of London – fictional biography I tried to stay absolutely as close. to her real life as I could, in terms of dates and in terms of who she was with. It was very easy to know where she was and who she was interacting with in real life. So that gave a framework. And then I just tried emotionally to capture what I thought she would be feeling at these times. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, so that one’s called The Diamond Of London and when is that actually going to be published? Andrea Penrose: It’s a February book. It comes out at the end of January. It releases in this country.  It’s for pre order and on most every major sites now. Jenny Wheeler: She ended up managing to engineer quite an amazing role for herself as the hostess for an unmarried uncle who was one of these Prime ministers of Britain, William Pitt the Younger, that you’ve mentioned. And so for a little brief period, she was one of the most important women in London, wasn’t she? Andrea Penrose: She was absolutely one of the probably the most powerful women in London. The diplomats and all of the politicians knew they had to come through her to have any chance of talking with her uncle, who really respected her opinions on things. The male politicians did come to respect her. But of course, when her uncle died, and then she had no official position anymore. It was amazing how fast they were no longer her friends. Ahe couldn’t give them anything. And that was sad, true story. Jenny Wheeler: I guess that’s the way politics works through the ages. Never Miss out! 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And that she wasn’t crushed by that sort of stuff – she was an incredibly strong woman. And then her whole life is just quite amazing. I only took the early part, her part in Britain, growing up in Britain, because her last love was a British general, and when he died in battle a hero, she felt she had to leave the memories in England. Her younger brother was badly wounded and was really PTSD when he got back from the war. To help him recuperate she took him to Greece, said let’s explore the Greece and Constantinople and then Palestine. And she never came back to England. She became the Queen of the Desert. She had her own army. She finally had powser; of all ironies in the Arabic world, she found they didn’t know what to make of her, so they decided she couldn’t really just be a normal woman. They looked at her as something unique and she actually brokered deals between the warlords, was respected by them. It’s really quite an amazing life. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. It sounds like it would actually be great to do a sequel. Andrea Penrose: I know, though she became pretty bizarre in her later life. I like the part I chose because I think you saw her character really develop and you understood the challenges and the disappointments. It was an incredibly rich and full life, just that segment of her life. Jenny Wheeler: Talking now about your wider career and particularly your tastes as a reader, we always like to ask our authors about their reading habits because we like to get some recommendations for people about what they might like to read. It’s more your personal leisure reading and what people might like to read for pleasure. Have you got any recommendations? What Andrea Penrose in reading now Andrea Penrose: I am an avid reader. Boy, where do I even start? I read a lot of non-fiction that I find fascinating, something like The Splendid and the Vile by Eric Larson on Churchill. But, in terms of mystery I love Allison Montclair, who does the Bainbridge Sparks series, which is set just after World War II in London. The two characters, Sparks and Bainbridge are just wonderful. One is an aristocratic woman who’s had a nervous breakdown because of her beloved husband was killed in the war, and the other is a gritty MI6 spy, and they’re totally different. One is a bit naive about the real world, and the other is this gritty and it’s marvelous. I think it’s just a fabulous series. I’m also a big fan of the Sebastian St Cyr Regency mysteries by C. S. Harris. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, yes, yeah. Andrea Penrose: I think he’s just a marvellous character and she does really interesting themes. It gets into the grittier side of the Regency as well. It’s just it’s so hard to name everything that I enjoy reading. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, but those are a couple of great ones. I hadn’t heard of Alison Montclair, I must say. Andrea Penrose: It’s no secret to reveal that Allison Moncler is actually a man, and which I found absolutely fascinating too. I have met him at a few conferences, he’s absolutely delightful, but I love that he writes to women incredibly well, I really highly recommend it. I think he started as a playwright, too. He’s a fascinating guy, but so anyone who hasn’t, I highly recommend trying that series. Andrea Penrose and bottling success Jenny Wheeler: Great. Look, you’re published internationally in 10 languages. You’re a three time Rita Award finalist and you’ve received many awards, including two Daphne du Maurier awards for historical mystery. What would you consider to be the quotes “secret of your success” as a writer? Andrea Penrose: If we had any secrets for success, we would bottle them. I think I’ve just persevered. Trust me, this business, you have your ups and downs. You really have to never take success, and think ‘oh this is easy. This is always going to be this way.’ We’ve all had ups and downs. And I think. The key, I don’t know, for me is I just I love writing and I know what stories are in my head and I have fun writing them and I’m thrilled even when readers seem to enjoy them too. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s great. Andrea Penrose: I think you have to just trust yourself and write what you love to write. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. Looking back down the tunnel of time of your creative career, if there was one thing you could change, what would it be? Andrea Penrose: I think I might have moved into mystery a little earlier. I think there was a time where everyone said, “Oh, no, you just have to be writing. Romance is the hot thing.” And it’s true. Things go in cycles, but I think I always knew inside. Boy, I want to do something a little different. And, I think it would have been fun to maybe get into it a little earlier. Jenny Wheeler: Because you did write romance under a couple of other pen names, didn’t you? Andrea Penrose: Yes, I did. And that’s, don’t even ask. Publishers. It’s all publishing decisions. You go to one publisher, then you go to another one, they’d want to do a different name. Yeah. What is next for Andrea Penrose author Jenny Wheeler: What is next for Andrea as author over the next 12 months? What have you got on your desk? I have another Wrexford one to start. Book #9 will be starting shortly and I have an idea for Lady Arianna to be set in Greece, which I’m looking forward to. And I won’t give any spoilers, but so I hope to have. another Lady Arianna outlet next by summer, let’s say, and then there’ll be another Wrexford Sloane in fall. Jenny Wheeler: I have seen on your Goodreads page that readers have been asking questions like, is there another Lady Arianna coming? Andrea Penrose: I know it. It’s just because I had to put the Lady Hester book in between two existing deadlines. So the last year was just non stop. Coming up for air was difficult. So I just didn’t have a chance to do a Lady Arianna as well. I’m looking forward to getting her back in the action. Jenny Wheeler: Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Andrea Penrose: I do. I have an artistic background, so Instagram is really my favorite social media. I do have a Facebook page. I’m not as active as a lot of people, but I do Instagram and that’s Andrea Penrose books is my Instagram and my website. I have a section I call Diversions where I give a lot of little tidbits on the history in each book, and I do a little essay and a slideshow, so if you want to see what the Royal Botanic Gardens look like, I have a little history on the gardens themselves and a slideshow, and I do that with a lot of the elements that are in my book and that’s just andreapenrose.com and you can go and have some fun exploring. Yep. Jenny Wheeler: Sounds fun. And also I see that you contribute to a blog called Word Wenches. What’s that about? 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Word Wenches – one of longest running author blogs Andrea Penrose: Those are, there are 7 of us historical authors Mary Jo Putney, Patricia Rice, Nicola Cornick, Anne Gracie, Susan King and Christina Courtenay, and we have a lot of fun. We’ve all become very close friends, even though we are literally around the world. We chat with each other most every day, and so it’s a fun thing, and the blog is, I think, A lot of fun as well. I think we’re the longest running blog of authors. We’ve been around now for about 14 or 15 years doing Jenny Wheeler: We’ll put all of those links in the show notes so people can find them if they’re interested in taking that further. Look, it’s been great talking, Andrea. It really has. Just as much fun as I anticipated it was going to be. So thank you so much for your time. Andrea Penrose: Thank you so much. This was great fun. Jenny Wheeler: Thanks so much. Andrea Penrose: thank you again. This is great. If you enjoyed Andrea Penrose you might also enjoy… Julie McElwain’s Time Travel Stories Julie McElwain’s time travel mystery series featuring FBI profiler Kendra Donovan set in 1815 London has been described as ‘Jane Austen meets the Alias TV series.’  She’s made top sci fi and mystery lists every year since the series was launched, with ‘Most addictive mystery” one of the accolades. LISTEN TO JULIE HERE – EPISODE 1 Julie McElwain was first on The Joys of Binge Reading back in in 2018 with her first book in the Kendra Donovan time travel series Murder in Time about an FBI agent who travels back to Regency England. . She’s back today with book # 5, Shadows In Time and a series that is going from strength to strength – now optioned for TV. LISTEN TO JULIE HERE – EPISODE 2 Next week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading, internationally published Kiwi author, Fiona Sussman, and The Doctor’s Wife, a psychological thriller of a close friendship shattered by illness and unexpected death. Nothing in Stan Andino’s unremarkable life could prepare him for the day he discovers his wife in the living room, naked except for a black apron, bleaching out a stain in the carpet that only she can see. Terrifyingly believable, The Doctor’s Wife is shortlisted for New Zealand’s national mystery awards, the Ngaio Marsh Mystery Awards to be decided in late November. That’s it for today. But do remember just before I go, if you enjoyed the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. See you next time and Happy Reading.

Theodore Brun seemed to have everything. A high level, high earning job as a Paris based lawyer, a group of interesting friends and activities, a French fiancé, and yet he knew he wasn’t really happy. Something was missing. It took him several job changes and a long-distance cycle ride across Europe before he discovered his calling. And a decade of hard work later, he’s published a four-book series of Dark Age historicals, The Wanderer Chronicles, and he’s found where he belongs. Hi there, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and on Binge Reading Today, Theodore talks about the books that critics describe as “thrilling, epic adventure at its very best” and about finding his place as an author in that remarkable ride that opened up his life to new energy and joy. Fantastic Fiction Giveaway For our Giveaway this week, I’ve teamed up with 50 other fantastic authors to give away a huge collection of Women’s Fiction and Book Club books in a BookSweeps Lucky Draw. There’s two prize winners, but the Grand Prize winner gets a brand new E reader as well as a library of new books. You can win my book Sadie’s Vow, #1 in the Home At Last series, plus books from authors like Stephanie Dray, Madeline Martin, and Michelle Cox, all of whom have been on Binge Reading in the past. And remember, if you enjoyed the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Details of things mentioned in this episode: The Second Siege of Constantinople: https://www.worldhistory.org/image/11635/umayyad-siege-of-constantinople-717-ce/ The Anglo Saxon poem The Wanderer: https://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/English/Wanderer.php Wynfrid of Nursling also known as St Boniface: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Boniface German god Thor:  https://www.britannica.com/topic/Thor-Germanic-deity Joe Abercrombie: https://joeabercrombie.com/ Hungry Ghosts: Kevin Jared Hosein, https://www.amazon.com/Hungry-Ghosts-Kevin-Jared-Hosein-ebook/dp/B0B31N67Z7/ River Spirit: Leila Aboulela, https://leila-aboulela.com/books/river-spirit/ The Great Reclamation: Rachel Heng, https://www.rachelhengqp.com/ Where to find Theodore Brun online Website: www.theodorebrun.com Instagram: @Theobrun Twitter, @Theodore Brun Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/theodorebrunauthor/ Introducing author Theodore Brun Historical adventure author Theodore Brun But now here’s Theodore. Hello, Theodore, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Theodore Brun: Hello, Jenny. It’s lovely to be here, from the other side of the world, literally. And the other side of the clock. You’re 12 hours ahead. Let’s get into it. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Thank you so much. Now we’re going to be talking about the four-book series of The Wanderer Chronicles, set in the dark ages of Europe in the seventh and eighth centuries, and I know that these sorts of sagas often have quite a strong element of archetypal fantasy in them as well. So I’m wondering. There’s an obvious character in the book who identifies as a wanderer, but there’s probably a more overarching archetype as well at play here. Talk to us a bit about how the Wanderer works in these kinds of Viking sagas. Theodore Brun: The Wanderer, it’s interesting the name, the Wanderer, for a start, because I came up with that when I was about halfway through drafting the first book. and in searching around to see whether anything else had been made under that name, I discovered that there is actually a very old Anglo Saxon poem called The Wanderer. And as I read this thing, it was the first time I’d read it, I was astonished because it was very similar in terms of archetype to my own protagonist. And it’s really about a man, a warrior in this warrior culture, who is forced into exile because his lord and his comrades are all wiped out in a battle. A Coming Of Age story And so he goes into exile, but it’s not just a physical journey. It’s a journey of let’s say the soul, of the mind, of life’s experience, in which he goes from  – it’s a kind of enlightenment that he’s discovering. Similar to my main protagonist, he’s a boy/young man who has this physical disability caused by his father. So he carried the archetype of the father wound. That’s very strong in this book. And it’s this Coming of Age story is the first novel really  ( A Mighty Dawn) where he has to leave his homeland and go out and find his way in the world. But in the course of obviously becoming a great warrior, which is the surface level, there’s a lot going on underneath in terms of what is life all about and how is he to live as a man in this dark and brutal world of the eighth century. So hopefully over the span of what I plan to be five books he’ll come to his own enlightenment, if you like, on that score, his own form of wisdom. Jenny Wheeler: Sure. I imagine you’re immersed in the fifth book or starting the fifth book now, and that will round out the series. Theodore Brun: That will round out the series. I haven’t actually started it yet, because various other things have come in the way, but hopefully I will, It’s all going on in my head at least, and I know where the whole thing lands Jenny Wheeler: Now, the one we’re talking about particularly today is book four,  which has just been published. It’s called A Savage Moon and it opens in 718AD  at the point where there’s been a very significant battle in Europe and Byzantium. And you would expect peace to reign on that continent, but it’s far from a peaceful world. Tell us a bit about in 718AD and the state of Europe at that time. The unsettled peace of the eighth century Theodore Brun: You’re right. You would expect peace to come, but peace doesn’t seem to last very long in that period. I think that the significant thing going on in Europe at that time is it’s a crossover point, if you like, from the more powerful period of the Byzantine Empire, which was really the continuation, not even the successor of the Roman Empire, but based around this big city of Constantinople, which really put every other city and urban environment in its shade. It was of a different order. But what was happening was that Islam was on the ascendant. You had probably less than a hundred years before Muhammad burst onto the scene, just after the Byzantines had settled the Persians, their great rival once and for all. And they had about 10 years of breathing space and then suddenly they’ve got this new enemy appears on the horizon sweeping all before it. And I think it took them about a hundred years to really push the Byzantines back and back out of their provinces around what’s now Palestine and what’s now Turkey till they were really banging on the walls of Constantinople. I call it Byzantium in my books. And it was a very iconic siege in the sense that everything was thrown at it. The Arab Muslim armies that came against the city were vast in number. But the one advantage that the Byzantines had was they had built these enormous walls, which still stand, and you can go and walk on top of them and they are incredibly impressive still as fortifications on the landward side of what’s now in Istanbul. Powerful Byzantium in decline They just couldn’t get through them. And so while the moment of crisis passed when various things went wrong for the Arab armies encamped around the city, and also the Byzantines had this secret weapon, which was a flamethrower, a medieval flamethrower, which they used at sea. So they were invincible at sea as well. The crisis passes, but even within the Byzantine Empire, the intrigues did not cease and I think the very next year the emperor who’d succeeded in driving away this threat was having to deal with various conspiracies of people trying to reinstall previous emperors. It was very unsettled time within that empire because it was in a very weakened condition and the wars didn’t end with the Muslim armies, they were still various campaigns running in what’s now Turkey. The Arabs remained the enemy for hundreds of years, so that was what was going on in the eastern Eastern Mediterranean, as it were, and then around Rome, Rome was still part of the empire, but the bonds that were tying Rome to that empire were loosening as well. There was a sea change in this period of history where Rome and what would be the Papal States would start looking to the Frankish kingdom in France, and look west for their protection because the east was so beleaguered by this new threat of the Muslims. Jenny Wheeler: The Savage Moon focuses on Erlan, who is the Shining Wanderer, the wanderer referred to as a boy in the first book, and the Swedish Queen, Lilla. They’ve got the major roles. There are a number of other side stories as well, but tell us about those two. I feel you have a particular affection for Erlan, the wanderer. What inspires you about him in particular? Hard medicine for a five-year-old boy Theodore Brun: I think the fact that he is encumbered with this disability. His backstory was that his father was trying to teach him as a five-year-old, that you can’t really trust anyone in the world. He invites him to jump off this big rock on the beach and he says he’ll catch him. At the last minute he steps aside and lets him fall into the sand, but he doesn’t realize that there’s a stone concealed under the sand. The child Erlan does himself a chronic lasting injury, and it’s a pretty brutal lesson from his father. That reflects an actual story I heard. They didn’t cripple themselves, but at the same time, the father stepped away. I stole that as an example. I think the fact that he’s having to deal with this injury means that he can’t run away like other men. He’s not mobile like other men. What he has to learn is to stand and fight better than anyone else. I think that’s what he has learned to do. He’s learned that he needs to have more resourcefulness, more skills with his mind as well as his body and his strength. But there are various wounds in his past that I think he’s trying to process whilst going through these adventures and these experiences. There’s one other layer that I think is important as far as his character is concerned and that comes from his mother, who, although she passes away when he’s rather young, she leaves him with this question, which is,’ are you going to be a man or a monster?’ Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Are you a man, or a monster? ‘Are you a man or a monster?’ And I think in this world of – it’s incredibly brutal world. It’s not like the world’s got less brutal, from news going around today, even today. That question still pertains for all of us really – are you going to be a man or a monster in this world, particularly on the masculine side? Of course, there’s the excitement, the ‘thrills and spills of swords and splatter’ as a friend describes this kind of book. But there’s also this underlying question, what kind of a man is Erlan becoming, and I think that’s relevant. I feel like it’s connected to me as an author. It’s taken me, I don’t know, seven, eight years to get to this point in terms of my writing career. (Correction from the audio – Editor note) So that’s quite a development. I’m 46 now, over my late 30s and early 40s. Still a question for me is, what kind of a man am I becoming? And maybe some of the outworking of that comes out on the page. So that’s Erlan. I don’t know, do you want me to say what I think about Lilla as well? Jenny Wheeler: Yes. I didn’t warm to her as much. I felt in some ways ahe wasn’t quite deserving of him. Theodore Brun: That’s interesting, isn’t it? Because I had another friend who read them and thought the exact opposite, thought that she was the admirable one and he needed to up his game to be deserving of her. But I’m a man, so I’m trying to write a female character. I think again, it’s a similar question of what does it mean to grow into becoming a 17, 18 year old young woman, who thinks she’s wise, but part of the journey of her, because she knows more in terms of magic and various kind of supernatural stuff, I would say in the context of their culture. I think over the course of her story, she. becomes disillusioned and realizes maybe she doesn’t know half of what she thought she knew about the world. Queen Lilla has a similar challenge She’s on a learning process as well. But also, it’s the same thing of, is she hardened as a woman? Is her heart hard? In the course of this current book, A Savage Moon, it was quite deliberate, I noticed it about halfway through writing it. She’s become incredibly hard hearted about halfway through the book, almost to the point where she’s masculinized, if that’s a word. I can’t think of the word for it, but she’s become more masculine in terms of her approach to things, which may be a reflection of my own thoughts, but in the second half of the book, she recovers something of her softness and femininity and vulnerability, as well as having that power of the woman of experience. They are somewhat broken people figuring out how to be better as well as how to figure out how to meet all their goals in the course of these adventures as well. The fact that you see this ‘push me pull you’ effect of her rising to him or him rising to her, I think is part of the narrative and in some ways deliberate. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And you do make it clear that because of the position she holds as a woman, that she has a sense of having to appear even more strong and dangerous to get men to take her seriously. There’s a certain part of the act where she has to almost overplay things to get taken seriously. Theodore Brun: Yes, I think that’s right. And where she’s come from, is a place when she’s in her homeland and doesn’t really have for the responsibility that she comes to when she becomes queen through a course of events. Beforehand, she’s quite disparaging of all this politicking and the bravado of great lords and war leaders and warriors and what have you posturing. Telling story of European power blocs But she gets drawn into it and has to find her way of standing her ground and taking hold of some position. Standing in equal balance with some of the powerful and forceful characters that she comes up against. There is an element of like iron sharpens iron, if you like, she’s having to get sharper in order to meet the challenge of the forces that come against her or the characters that come against her. Jenny Wheeler: You’re working with an extremely broad canvas here, because a lot of these books, as far as I understand it, like with M. J. Porter, they focus on one particular country, whether it’s England or the Viking area, the Norse lands, but you cover the whole range. That must have been quite a challenge, and obviously one that you deliberately chose to take that global view. Theodore Brun: I think part of it connects with the inspiration behind these books, which was very much a dive into the history of this period where you saw these greater moving pieces of Christendom, the Roman Empire, the emerging Muslim Empire and the Pagan North, the early days of what would become the big Viking culture. I wanted to explore that whole world, which already meant that you couldn’t just stay up in Scandinavia. And this was more than a story all about Norse culture and rival kingdoms up there. Although basically the first two books do stay there. and certainly, it made my job a little bit harder in terms of thinking now I’ve got to go down to Constantinople. What does that look like? What’s going on down there? It certainly extrapolated the amount of research that I had to do, but I’m very glad. How Theodore Brun fell in love with Dark Ages I think naturally I’m quite a roving person anyway. I’ve traveled widely and so I could use that to enrich these stories. I think has been a deliberate choice and hopefully, it provides a expansiveness to the nature of the stories, the settings. Jenny Wheeler: It does. It’s a good point to now ask you about your fascination with this period, because it stems from a number of personal interests and experiences that you had. Tell us a little bit about that. You’ve got Viking ancestry there in the background, as well as a number of other interests. Tell us how you got drawn into that period. Theodore Brun: I think the Viking ancestry, as in my father is fully Danish, even though he was raised and born in England, just before the war. My Danish grandfather lived till he was 101, and he was living in England. So we were getting you’re Danish, very much a sense of that side of our heritage. But strangely, that was nothing really to do with Vikings as such. It was more just the country and culture itself. So that wasn’t really determinative. I think it was more the fact that there was this lecture I went to back in 2009. And it was talking about three great evangelists of history, The lecture was by a theologian. One of them, the middle one was on this guy called Wynfrid of Nursling, who was an Englishman in the early 8th century.  And the lecturer described this event, which actually is also very topical, where he cut down the sacred oak of Thor, the God of Thunder. in a province in Germany in big dark Germanic forest. An unexpected hero – and an English saint Obviously, he was trying to demonstrate the power of the Christian God over the pagan gods and also push back against what he saw as these abominations of human sacrifice and what have you. So that story affected me, as not a writer in any sense. No, I wasn’t writing. It was total flatline in terms of my writing career. This was a spark in my imagination that did actually birth something. I suddenly saw this scene of this guy with his axe chopping down this local community’s favorite tree. That’s not going to go down very well, is it? And saw it as a spark of conflict. But it was enough that actually drew me further into this guy’s story, got hold of a history book about it, started reading about the historical context, and realized he was actually quite an interesting figure connecting the Roman church with the Frankish leadership, the kings of France. But also then the story of the Muslims invading from Spain up as far as just south of Paris to the city of, or near the town of Tours. There was this battle of Tours in 732 AD, and I suddenly thought, that’s quite a good climax for some sort of story. I don’t know what the story is yet, but that feels like a climactic event, which I think I’d heard about in the past, but I’d forgotten about. So that was the hook, if you like, the historical hook that linked me into early 8th century. Now. In terms of the stories, we’re not actually ever going to unless it’s a different series, I don’t think we’re going to get to that particular battle. In roaming around… that area of history, suddenly, some of the background of my university days I studied Scandinavian archaeology, which is basically Viking archaeology, but going back all the way to the year zero. Wynfrid set Theodore’s imagination alight And so suddenly the protagonist that appeared in my head was neither Christian nor Muslim. It was this pagan. guy. And I thought okay, so in exploring this world, there needs to be this slightly more neutral character between this big fault line between these big historical tectonic plates, as it were, of these two great faiths. Who is this guy? Is he a warrior? Is he what? I think out of that seed bed, grew the origin story, if you like, of this wanderer character who was going to explore the rest of the world. A Mighty Dawn in the first book is really his, where he comes from, why he leaves and where he’s off to next. Jenny Wheeler: Sure. Wynfrid does make an appearance in this book, A Savage Moon, doesn’t he? He’s got quite a significant role. And I get the feeling he is going to be in the next book as well. Is that a reasonable expectation? Theodore Brun: He is in this book, and I was very glad to finally get to him because it was such a significant moment for me. I was a lawyer before, and  it was only thanks to this story that I now I can basically attribute absolutely everything that I have in life to that moment of hearing his story. I feel like I owe the guy or at least that story a lot. It was a pivot point in my life. It was that blinding vision, if you like, of this dark forest. And maybe it didn’t happen exactly as I imagined it, but I think part of the purpose of this book was to bring this character in, to enact this moment, but it wasn’t historically the same moment, because there were a lot of these pagan trees where there was sacrifices and rituals connected with them. It was more tying in his story of if something like this had happened, this would leave such an indelible imprint on his mind, the historical character, that of course he would have this antipathy to these places of pagan worship. I think he has had his moment, I’m not sure he’s going to be there in the next book, knowing where the story’s going to. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Theodore Brun: Because he goes off and has his own his own historical adventures, which doesn’t really tie in with where I’m taking Erlan and Lilla’s story. But who knows, maybe in spin off series connected with this, you could possibly explore his story? I think he’s an interesting character because he, together with Charles Martel, who was the power behind the throne in the Frankish kingdom, and also Pope Gregory II, he was almost like a diplomatic link between those two forces. And, now when we think of medieval Christendom, you always think of church and state and this weird interrelationship between the two. But at that stage, they weren’t necessarily that connected. He was a real forger, I think, of what came to be medieval Europe in the centuries that followed. I do think he’s a significant character in European history. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. These Dark Age stories, they have an absolute pitiless brutality about them, the way that they treated one another. I know that it’s just as bad today in many ways as you’ve alluded to, but how do you feel about the whole question of justice and seeing people in stories get their comeuppance when they’re absolutely vile? Like that one character, Kateros in this book, who’s a horrible person and seems to get away with everything. Celebrating the anti hero Theodore Brun: He’s a bit of an anti hero. Kataros I call him. I’m always playing around with names and meanings behind names. So Kataros, I made it up. It sounds Greek but the root word behind it is to do with being cursed. And it’s the same word, his name changes at a certain point in this in this story to Skirpa, which also has that same sense of ill fate. And the reason he’s there is because there’s a big reveal coming in book five about who this guy really is. But he is also a character who just wouldn’t go away from my head. He’s the main antagonist. He’s the baddie in A Burning Sea, which is the third book. He’s a eunuch who’s scheming against the Empire because effectively the organs of the Empire have. made him a eunuch, which he’s never really accepted, the resentment is there. His opportunity arises to organise the downfall of the Empire, and he’s going to take it. It doesn’t come off, but he still survives. In A Savage Moon, he’s on the run from the long arm of imperial justice, let’s call it that. And he becomes this kind of anti hero. And I think It’s interesting, you have the hero, who’s always having to reconcile and overcome the dark, the shadow, if you like, in his soul. And then you’ve got the mirror image in this character, who, as you say, is pretty vile by any standards, but at the same time, he’s wrestling with the fact that there’s always that thread dangled in front of him of redemption and he doesn’t always have to choose the worst possible course of action. I think that comes into the story as well. It’s the idea that I think it was it Solzhenitsyn who says the line between good and evil runs between every human heart. A bicycle journey to life It’s not like there’s baddies over here and goodies over there. We’re all of us dealing with that sense of both good and evil and the fault line runs inside of us. So how are we going to push the line that, talk about justice and righteousness? How are we going to push that line, so we don’t become the monster? We become a man, or we don’t become the hard hearted. I don’t know what in terms of describing Lilla, but she retains her womanhood in all its fullness. Skirpa is an interesting foil to have there. He is the third strand in the thread of the whole story. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. you alluded to a lot of journeying that you’ve done yourself. You did a remarkable bicycle journey. You mentioned about being a lawyer. You were a lawyer on an international scale in a number of different places ending up, I think in Hong Kong. And then you rode by bicycle from Hong Kong through about 20 countries back home to England. And that must have taken some time. I’m not quite sure how long it took, but it seems to me to be a bit of a personal odyssey because after that, you pretty well immediately started the writing. And I just love to know a little bit about your meditations as you were making that bicycle journey and how pivotal it was for you? It was a wonderful life, but it didn’t fit him Theodore Brun: I think the backstory to it is ‘why did a man, a young man of, say, 33, do it?’ I had a pretty good life in Paris. I was engaged to a lovely journalist and I had a very high paying legal job. Why did I blow all that? People looking at it on the outside would be like, ‘What was wrong with that?’ I kind of systematically dismantled it and I think I can understand now the motivation behind that was connected with the fact that as good as that life felt or looked, it felt like someone else’s life. And I think part of the journey of breaking up that kind of status quo, and then embarking on another journey of discovery, if you like, was asking ‘Where was I supposed to end up in life?’ And this was from a place where I had no sense of creativity, no sense of imagination, no sense of ever writing fiction, even though I respected authors and literature a lot, and I read quite a lot, but I never connected that with me. And so it built to a bit of a crisis point when I had some good jobs in the law and then tried to leave it and then went back into a very mediocre, I thought, job in Hong Kong. I was very disgruntled and dissatisfied and on my downers. The idea of the books had started to grow, but then also this daydream of just setting out and walking off into mainland China started to become a reality to me. And I think someone challenged me. And when I confessed this daydream and with three words, they said, ‘What’s stopping you?’ And for the first time in a long time, I felt this little kernel of joy. So it was that signal of the joy, if you like, in connecting with that idea. And then I started to make it a reality and started to plan it. Coming alive cycling through 20 countries And then eventually I set out on this journey. Of course, there were obstructions and barriers to like, why you wouldn’t do this journey, but I did it. And we’re talking about books where characters go from pole to pole, from good to bad or bad to good or rich to poor or the other way around. For me, this was literally from death to life. I don’t want to sound too melodramatic about it, but I did feel this sense of inertia and decay when I was stuck there in Hong Kong. And over the course of this journey, by the time I ended up back in England, someone asked me the question “how would you sum up that journey in one word?” And I just blurted out “alive.” It was what I needed to do at that stage in my life, to basically come back to life and discover within myself this aptitude for writing, the love of writing, the passion for writing. S,o how do I do it? Commit to it as well, which is what happened when I got back to England. Then there followed quite a few months and even years of just churning out two thousand words a day. I wrote this enormously vast tome which represents the first two novels now, which I then had to rework a lot and edit and chop and change. I think doing that journey gave me the confidence of going, okay, take it one day at a time. one page at a time, one sentence at a time, and you will get there if you just don’t give up and keep going. Anyway, I’m so glad that I persevered because it’s taken time to build up a livelihood connected with writing and only writing but I think I could say I’m here now. All the rich things that have come out of my life, meeting, the right woman who I could actually stick with, having my children, being a father, but at the same time satisfying that wandering, roaming nerve inside me. Theodore Brun – living in his imagination That’s what writing gives to me. I don’t feel like I’m in the wrong life. I don’t need to go off and get on a bicycle and cross the world again. I feel I can do all that in my imagination and still live a very stable, good, nourishing life here in London where I’m living with my wife, Natasha and my girls. So that’s the journey. Jenny Wheeler: That’s an amazing story. And that’s a book in itself, which I’d love to read. It’s really a personal journey, a memoir, isn’t it? That’s what it is, Theodore Brun: I must write it one day for my, just for my girl’s sake, if no one else, just so they know. Because they just think I’m obsessed with books and I sit in my study and write. they don’t know that side of me really. Jenny Wheeler: But it sparks another question. You also said you studied Dark Archaeology, but you said that it never gave you the sense of really understanding and feeling that you were there in those times with the people like being able to write about them did. Tell us about that because it’s a rather similar sort of experience, isn’t it? Did you start out your archaeology because you wanted to really understand what those people were like or what living in that time was like? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The journey from science to arts  Theodore Brun: I started Archaeology and Anthropology, which was the degree at Cambridge where I went to, in part because I could get in on it. It was very hard to get into that university and this felt like a lower bar than some of the other ones I might have applied for. But then in the course of that, it was a three year degree and after the second year you have to then specialise. To give you some idea – all my equivalent of high school stuff was all very sciencey. And this was a bridge towards something a bit more historical. Archaeology and then within that degree, continually choosing the options where there was more history involved. And then weirdly, just to jump forward, like then my career went into the law, which was all more words. And now it’s a writer. It was always on this journey away from very sciencey mathematical things into the more imaginary part of my brain, as it were. And the degree part was, archaeology, it was all like material culture, just a pot sitting there or a blade that’s all rusted to nothing sitting there or a schematic of some foundations of a building that once stood there. I could see these things on the page. but I felt like there was a big gap between what I wanted to feel in terms of examining the past and what I was experiencing. And if to give you an analogy, it’s as different as if you go to the Coliseum and you walk around the Coliseum you go, okay, you’re trying to imagine it and then you go off and you watch Gladiator in an IMAX, it’s that difference. Theodore Brun – Activating his creativity And I think that’s the experience I’ve had now activating my imagination as it were and then discovering this idea of writing fiction and living out these scenes and hopefully sharing that with readers as well. You get to experience everything in your head. There is an element of time travel magic to being an author, a historical novelist which obviously as a reader, I enjoy they as well when someone does it well. So that’s the point of connection. It is the mystery, if you like, of our minds that can really help us be there and live these different lives, experience these different things, and yet get on with the life that we’re actually. in. And I love that about historical fiction. I love it when I read it. I love it when I write it as well. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great because we are starting to come to the end of our time together and I always like to ask people about what they’re reading at the moment. We have a lot of passionate readers who listen to this show and they’re often looking for their next great read, the next series that they want to get into. What do you like to read and is there anything that you’d recommend to people at the moment? Theodore Brun: It’s not what I’m reading right now, but I would definitely recommend, if they love a series and a binge read as it were, since we’re on the joy of binge reading, Joe Abercrombie, who is not a historical novelist, but he might as well be. He’s a fantasy novelist and his first trilogy was The Blade Itself But he’s done his most recent one I think you have to read those in order to give the context for the ones I’m going to recommend which is this trilogy called The Age Of Madness and it’s almost like the Industrial Revolution leads into the French Revolution, but in fantasy land. What Theodore Brun is reading now And the reason I recommend it is because I think he’s got a fantastic, he’s probably the best voice in terms of fiction that I’ve been reading recently. That’s what I would recommend. The Age of Madness by Joe Abercrombie, which is three novels, and they follow on from one another and end rather nicely in a great climax, say. It’s good stuff. Jenny Wheeler: So that’s fantasy. Do you read a lot of fantasy? Theodore Brun: I don’t, no, not much. But I think, because I was recommended him, I just think he’s a fantastic writer in terms of voice and there are a few people who I think match him. Having said that, I am a judge for what’s called the Historical Writers Association Gold Crown Award, which is coming to its conclusion, it funnels down into the last 12 or 10 books, and they are, I’m really struggling to, to choose between them. So just to throw a couple that are on my desk. There’s one called Hungry Ghosts by Kevin Jared Hussain. There’s another one called River Spirit by Leila Aboulela, and The Great Reclamation by Rachel Heng. I’m having to try and decide which I like more out of these and they all just great, it’s high quality historical fiction, great writing and great stories. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s wonderful. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there is one thing about your creative career you’d change, what would it be? Theodore Brun: In a very mercenary sense I would accept the pre-emptive offer that my publisher offered to me, and then we went away and tried to see whether anyone else was interested, and when no one else was, we came back and the offer was quite a lot smaller. It would have made my life a little bit easier if, had I accepted that pre-emptive offer. That would be one change. Regrets? He’s had a few… Creatively, there’s a character in the second book. A Sacred Storm, who was my favorite character. I think he was everyone’s favorite character. And maybe I would have found a different fate for him, had I realized the importance of having the light relief as well as this main protagonist kind of big epic, emotional journey. You need some right light relief as well. And that’s what this other character was so good for, both for my own sanity writing these things, but also I think for the readers. In future series, I think I’ll definitely held that thought in mind when it comes to deciding what happens to my characters. Jenny Wheeler: There’s that phrase, you have to kill your babies. You think that was one baby you shouldn’t have killed? Theodore Brun: It was. In my head, it’s still one of the most powerful moments of the whole, all the four books. I don’t regret that, and we couldn’t have had that if I made a different choice, I think I’m happy. I’m happy. It is let the chips lie where they are and I’ll just take that lesson away for the future. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s great. What’s next for Theodore as an author? For example, what have you got on your desk for the next 12 months? Theodore Brun: My very next project is an interesting one because I also, as well as writing under my own name, I do ghost writing as well. But it’s the first time I’ve got a project as a ghost writer coming up, which is to do with fiction. I’ll be writing a kids fantasy novel which is going to be shorter, a different world, set in the real world, but with strange magical powers going on a little bit Harry Potter. What Theodore Brun is working on next… I’m doing that in conjunction with the author, who has ideas, but is not going to be writing the book, so that’s going to be the next actual book I’m going to write. But within 12 month period, I hope to move on to the next historical fiction book, which is going to be set in 19th century Cairo as a murder mystery. And potentially a contemporary thriller as well, which is a sort of conspiracy thriller, which seems to be a natural outlet for all the crazy stuff going on in the world right now. But I need to put all those thoughts down somewhere. So maybe best in a work of fiction. Jenny Wheeler: Oh wow, so you’re going to move right away from Dark Ages. Theodore Brun: Currently that’s the plan, but not forever. It really depends contractually what happens with this fifth book, whether I can find a way of writing it, either getting a publisher interested, or by buying myself the time through getting income from other sources. Hoping sales for the fourth book go very nicely and then the publisher will be interested in continuing on the series, because I think it’s hard to keep a series going and probably, as again to your earlier point, another change I might have made is writing slightly shorter books. Then the turnover was a bit quicker, and then you keep the readers hot as it were on the boil. That said, I’ve got to finish the story by hook or by crook some way, somehow, because I can see the cycle of the story comes into land in a specific way. And I can see that. So I need to do that. Jenny Wheeler: I’m just interested, the children’s novel that you’re going to be writing, is it relevant to the ages of your daughters? Is it something where you’re going to be able to perhaps read bits to them and they’re going to be able to give you their feedback? Theodore Brun: The older one, probably, yes. In, at least, by the time I’ve finished it, I think she’ll be old enough. She’s just turned seven, so she’s still a little bit young, because I think it’s more for 11 to 12 year olds. But hey, I’ll give it a go and see what she says. Where to find Theodore Brun online Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. That’s lovely. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Theodore Brun: I do. My readers can find me I’m on Twitter, @Theodore Brun. I’m on Instagram, @Theobrun which is probably my most active platform. I have an author’s page on Facebook as well, which I don’t use quite so much, or you can sign up to my mailing list on my website, which is www.theodorebrun. com as you might’ve guessed. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great, Theodore. And I’m so glad to hear that you are making a success of this full-time writing career. That in itself is a super achievement. Theodore Brun: It’s keeping your head above water. I think that is possibly the most that you can hope for is like, where’s the next contract coming from? And where can you deploy your imagination next? And I think that’s all I really ask of it at the moment. So that’s keeping me happy and busy. Jenny Wheeler: Thank you so much for your time. It’s been great talking. Theodore Brun: Wonderful. Thank you so much, Jenny. It’s a privilege to be on here. If you enjoyed Theodore you might also enjoy… M.J. Porter’s ninth century Saxon chronicles… More Dark Age adventure…. M.J. Porter has developed an enthusiastic readership for her ninth century Saxon Chronicles set in the depths of a divided Britain. She writes action-packed and completely addictive Dark Ages historicals that have readers howling for more. LISTEN TO M J Porter on ANGLO SAXON CHRONICLES Next week on The Joys of Binge Reading.. USA Today best selling Regency mystery author Andrea Penrose… And Murder At Merton Library – #7 in the best selling Wrexford & Sloane mysteries… Jenny Wheeler: Next week on The Joys Of Binge Reading – USA Today best selling Regency mystery author Andrea Penrose… She’s published internationally in 10 languages. She’s a three time Rita Award finalist and winner of numerous awards, including the Daphne du Maurier Mysteries Award. Critics say of Andrea Penrose: “She mixes well-thought-out mysteries, early forensic science, great details of the era and a slow burning attraction to make a compulsive read.” That’s it for today. Remember, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of Mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. See you next time and happy reading!

Kate Gray wrote half a dozen uplifting feel-good novels and then her dark side took over. One night, she had a horrific nightmare and when she woke up shaking, she just knew she had to write it as her next story. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And today on Binge Reading, Kate talks about the book that came out of that nightmare about a honeymoon gone bad, a psychological thriller called – you guessed right? The Honeymoon. She considers questions like “What if you don’t really know the person you’ve just married?” And tells us about her own experience of being left at the altar, which catapulted her into an adventure that changed her life. Giveaway This Week – Historical Romance Our Giveaway this week is a month of historical romance. If you’re searching for your next favorite story, look no further. These best-selling authors have teamed up to offer a delightful selection of new books, including my own Hope Redeemed, A Spanish Novella, Book #6 in the Of Gold & Blood historic mystery series. All are just available for a limited time. DOWNLOAD FREE HISTORICAL ROMANCE And remember, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, So others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links to things mentioned in this episode: Katy Colins: Kate’s second author name for uplifting women’s fiction: https://katycolins.com/ Lisa Jewell: None of This Is True, https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62334530 Hannah Richell: The Search Party https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/The-Search-Party/Hannah-Richell/9781668036068#: The Lonely Hearts Backpacker’s series: https://katycolins.com/the-lonely-hearts-travel-club-destination-thailand-by-katy-colins/ Where To Find Kate Gray online Website: KateGrayauthor.com Facebook: @Kategrayauthor Instagram: @Kategrayauthor Katy Colins travel blog https://www.instagram.com/notwedordead/ Introducing thriller author Kate Gray Jenny Wheeler: But now here is Kate. Hello there, Kate, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Kate Gray – psychological thriller author and The Honeymoon Kate Gray: Hi, thanks so much for having me. Jenny Wheeler: Kate, you’ve done half a dozen feel good, uplifting women’s fiction novels, and now this change to a dark psychological psychological thriller, The Honeymoon. Why the change of pace and genre? Kate Gray: I really enjoyed writing my novels as Katy Colins, uplifting, feel good reads. But I just didn’t have another idea. And I guess it also happened to be the start of lockdown when I was out of contract. And it wasn’t very good for that kind of creativity. The muse wasn’t visiting. I have two very young children. And my husband was working quite a lot as a journalist. So, no ideas were coming forward and one night I went to bed and I had this really horrific nightmare and I just knew I had to write it and the nightmare was so scary that this then led me into writing more psychological thrillers and actually I quite like embracing my darker side. Jenny Wheeler: Interesting. This is the first psychological thriller that you’ve actually published, is it? But have you got others on the boil now? Kate Gray: Yes, I signed a two-book deal. The Honeymoon came out this summer and the second one will be out next summer, which is really exciting. I’m currently editing that second one, which is completely different, they’re both standalone novels which is good in a way for my creativity, but difficult because I have a whole new cast of characters and problems to put them in. A story that came out of a bad dream Jenny Wheeler: That’s right. When we get to the feel good fiction a bit further on, we’ll talk about your four book series with a similar character and similar settings. So you did do a series there, but getting back to that nightmare. How much of the story was formed in the dream? Was it just the nub of an idea or did you have the whole thing largely roll out before you? Kate Gray: I wish I’d had the whole thing. That would have been amazing, but no, it was the feeling that I had, I looked at my hands and it’s so vivid now. I can remember it so clearly. And this was like two years ago and I looked out of my hands and there was blood dripping from my fingers and the skull of a man caved in next to me on this beautiful beach. And I knew that people would, the police wouldn’t be able to believe me, there’d be a translation problem. I would lose my children, my husband, my job, like I would lose everything. And I wouldn’t be able to get people to believe that I was innocent. And the fear that in a split second, everything could be taken away from you and not having anyone believe you. It terrified me and I woke up dripping in sweat. My husband had to calm me down and remind me that it was Lockdown. We hadn’t left England. I hadn’t been on some exotic beach murdering men. But it felt so real. I just thought, ‘Oh, what if, what if this happened on the last night of your honeymoon? ‘What if you didn’t really know that person that you just married? And what if then you had to trust them with a secret between the both of you?’ That’s how it started. It was a very much a visual image and then it carried on from there. Newly weds in Bali – and a meeting that changes lives forever Jenny Wheeler: And have you any idea what might have even sparked that? Had you been watching horror movies or something? Kate Gray: I don’t know. People say that when you eat too much cheese, you have bad dreams. (Laughs) Maybe I’ve just been pigging out on the camembert. I don’t honestly don’t know. A part of me does think it was the pressure of lockdown and feeling like I need another idea, I need the idea. And maybe that was all subconsciously working away. But sadly I haven’t had any more nightmares. Every night I would go to bed thinking, come on, one more nightmare. I might get another book out of it. Jenny Wheeler: Look, that’s great. As you’ve alluded to, The Honeymoon, presents two newly married couples, in a resort. They’ve got to know each other just a little bit over the honeymoon. And this weird event, a man dying on their last night in Bali. links them together, so when they get back to England and resume their normal jobs, there is a little bit of a link between them through that murder for various reasons. It starts out being an unknown death, but we do know right at the beginning that some of the circumstances surrounding it and it very much moves around this area of how well do you know somebody that you’re intimate with and what kinds of secrets can people hold from even those dearest to them? Is this something that’s always been an interest of yours? The ‘it could happen to me’ fearful thrill Kate Gray: I think I really enjoy reading psychological thrillers that ask those kind of questions of who do you know that are closest to you, how much you can trust them. And yeah, so I think marriage in particular is something that I’m interested in and that close relationship. I like those domestic settings. The ‘It could happen to me’ type feel. And like you were saying about The Honeymoon, all those things, there’s not spoilers, all those things happen pretty early on in the novel. And they have to come back and start this life. Life with the biggest secret ever. It’s the case of the most ultimate holiday blues, isn’t it? Knowing something so horrific happened and then you come back and try and pretend everything’s normal and all these secrets and lies and truths come out. But I do find it fascinating trusting other people and that process and the people that we go to bed with, we wake up alongside in the morning, but you never really know anybody. You only ever know yourselves. And yeah, I find that really interesting. Jenny Wheeler: You have a tagline in the book blurb. ‘Many marriages can survive anything. But when it started on a lie. Is it really till death do us part?’ Kate Gray: Yeah, I think it asks the question, doesn’t it? How seriously people take those vows and who are these people that you’re marrying and the relationship that you’re going into, especially if it’s a new relationship and they don’t know each other for very long, people can hide a lot of secrets along the way. And I find that really interesting. Maintaining appearances and keeping up our best selves Jenny Wheeler: And with these couples, it isn’t just what happens, the events of that night, because as we get to know them better, they’ve all entered their marriages with some secret that they haven’t told their partner. That’s true, isn’t it? Do you think a lot of us do that? Kate Gray: We maybe portray the best versions of ourselves. We especially do if we’re dating somebody, you don’t want to open your cupboard full of skeletons on the first date might put them off. And maybe some of those secrets you do carry with you and there is never the right time to reveal a certain part of you. Maybe it’s the part that you’re embarrassed about or ashamed of, and yes, I think the version that we portray, like on social media, is not always the truth. And just because you’re married to somebody, or you’re best friends with somebody, or you work with somebody, it’s not the truth always. And as an author, as a writer, I do find those relationships, the kind of domestic relationships, really interesting and fascinating to look into. Jenny Wheeler: I was particularly intrigued by the character Sophie, who’s a journalist who got to a high level in Fleet Street and then had a failure and is back in the local media trying to climb her way back up and desperate to find the story that’s going to take her back to the top. I worked for years as a journalist, and I gradually became aware, even to myself, of the justifications journalists often use for going after stories like public interest and justice for the victim. But with Sophie it’s so clear that there’s a very strong element of personal motivation for ambition and just to get ahead there, isn’t it? How far will she go to get the story? That also is a question that is of interest to you. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Secrets can cost in a digital world Kate Gray: Yes, I’m married to a journalist and I trained to be a journalist myself. And there is that line, isn’t it, that these stories do need to be told. We need to hold people accountable. In England, we’ve had quite recently some very high profile figures that have needed to be held accountable for recently. But I do think there is also that line of how much is too much. and the levels, like you said, the depths people will go to, to find the story and to really get into somebody’s lives. And this also links back to what we put of ourselves online, how easy it is for a complete stranger to do a bit of digging and to then suddenly fall down a rabbit hole of your life and discover things that people put up unwittingly thinking it’s for the good, but people are out there, journalists in particular, that’s how they do get find the kind of the meat of the story. So yes, so be careful. Jenny Wheeler: The rules have changed too, over the last 20 or so years. And things where before journalists would all keep secrets, like with the royal family secrets about the misdoings of the male members of the family, now it’s almost gone to the other extreme that things that, and I think that’s fair enough to show up that hypocrisy, but now it’s gone almost to the other extreme, hasn’t it? Kate Gray: It’s really, I think it is a really interesting debate. I do think journalists have a really important role in society, like I said, holding people for account, showing, taking off the cover really and be like, this is going on, this is not okay. The media landscape has changed dramatically with social media with other people, members of the public, becoming journalists and taking on that role, becoming detectives, with true crime cases. They get on TikTok and they’re suddenly saying things that journalists wouldn’t be able to say because they have the legal background and they have lawyers jumping on them that, you can’t name suspects, you can’t name things. Kate Gray loves ‘sliding doors’ moments But Joe Bloggs, a member of the public, is able to. And I think as a journalist, if you know a lot of the story and the background to a case, that must be so frustrating seeing it all being played out on Twitter X, whatever it’s called now, and knowing yourself that you have to follow a code of conduct. Jenny Wheeler: The Honeymoon is very intricately plotted. And I wondered, this is the age old question, but how intensely did you understand where it was going as you were writing it? Did you have a spreadsheet with everything plotted ahead or did you allow a certain amount of fluidity about the things that unfolded? Kate Gray: I didn’t have any spreadsheet. I didn’t have any plot, really. I just, like I said, I had that first image and the setting. And I’ve been to Bali myself. It’s beautiful. And I think it’s idyllic for honeymooners. But there was also as in most countries, an underbelly of kind of crime and corruption that can go on there. The fact that there’s a death penalty still exists. And as I thought, it’s a perfect place to raise those stakes. I knew I wanted two couples. And on the outside, people’s marriages look perfect, but actually going in, you know what? They’re hiding. And I also like the element that these two women, Erin and Sophia, they just picked up a conversation because they chose sun beds next to each other. Really innocent, just a matter of fact, innocent decision. This single choice that then would go on to change the course of their lives. I love those sort of ‘sliding doors’ moments of what you know, she’d have chosen a different bed or gone to a different resort than they never would have met. So yeah, in terms of plotting, I just carried on telling the story that I wanted to read, I guess I think after having. written and read so many uplifting commercial women’s fiction novels. It was nice to embrace that darker side and to try and write and emulate those psychological thrillers, which I adore a bit of mystery, a bit of yes, psychological…. Oh, like shadows and shivers that you get from nothing really happening, but that sense of unease. And I find that really interesting. A craft honed on uplifting women’s fiction But in terms of plotting, I didn’t plot really, I just told myself the story. I had a lot of editing to do because I didn’t really plot, but that’s another thing. Jenny Wheeler: That’s right. We will turn in a moment to talking a little bit about your uplifting feel good fiction. But I wondered if your writing process had changed over this period, whether you had a slightly different way when you started and whether it’s evolved in any significant way as you’ve been writing. Kate Gray: I think I learned my craft with my women’s fiction novels. I’ve had six published, and a seventh written. I knew the bare bones of structure of plot of kind of characterization, that sort of thing. And because those novels were so character heavy, the characters came to life and we followed them. Whereas in psychological thrillers in the crime world. It’s a lot more plot heavy and things happening every single page and cliffhangers and all that sort of thing. Yeah. But I really enjoy those books where the characters are still memorable and you really root for them, whether they’re good or bad. I wanted to take what I’d learned from those really character heavy novels I’ve written and bring that into my psychological thriller ones. And I’ve been really, really lucky with the reviews I’ve had where my readers of my Katie Colins books have said, I wasn’t sure if I was going to enjoy a thriller. Maybe it’s not my normal ‘go to’ genre. But actually, because they like my writing and they like how I’ve managed to create these characters that feel realistic, which is something I was really focused on, that, that they’ve enjoyed it and have left really good reviews, which is really good to hear. I was relieved. I was worried about taking the leap to the new genre, but so far, it seems to have paid off. From footloose backpacker to Midlands Mum Jenny Wheeler: That’s great that your feel good readers have followed you across because often they don’t, do they? Kate Gray: It’s a weird one because I think, not everybody reads just one genre, people do like a cross blend and I think if you like an author, then you would at least give it a go. You might not read another one if you didn’t fancy it, but I don’t know, there’s a bit of dark side in all of us. There is a place for a thriller, especially this time of year we’re getting over here, we’re getting into autumn and Halloween, the nights are drawing in. So this is the perfect creepy weather for those sort of books. Jenny Wheeler: You’re now writing from the UK Midlands as the mum of two young children, as you’ve mentioned, but when you started out, it was very much a different lifestyle you were living. And you had a series called the Lonely Hearts Travel Club, where there was a footloose and fancy free single girl who was traveling the world. Tell us about Katy Colins with only one L, actually, which is slightly unusual for those people who might be looking for you. Tell us about Katie Colins and those books. Kate Gray: Yeah, so Katy Colins is my other alter ego, my other pen name and Colins has only got one L because my dad’s name was Colin. So that was what I got for those. And they started really based on my kind of my own personal life experience. It was, this is about 10 years ago now, I was, like you said, in very different circumstances to where I am now. I was about to get married and had this big wedding planned and I was jilted and it just changed everything to the point where I was so heartbroken. Not Wed or Dead changed her life I’d never experienced anything like that, and everyone was saying, ‘Oh yeah, the world is your oyster. You can make something good of this. It doesn’t have to be this heartbreaking, heart wrenching experience.’ and I really took them at their word. Literally. Left my job, sold my house, sold my car, sold all my belongings apart from what I could fit into a massive backpack, and I booked a one-way ticket to Thailand. I’ve never solo traveled before, I’ve never even got an airplane by myself before, but I was so determined to make something good out of this horrible situation, and life, like I said, that before the ‘sliding doors’ moments, everything had spun on its head. I started a blog, which was called Not Wed Or Dead. And that was purely to keep my family updated. They knew I was alive. This was back when blogging was really big. And then I realized I had lots of readers messaging saying ‘I’m following your journey. I was also dumped or jilted or divorced. I understand that heartbreak that you’re feeling, and you’re  really encouraging me to carry on.’ I traveled around Southeast Asia and Australia. And then I ended up living in France for a bit. And whilst I was in France, I said this is the year I’m going to write a novel. I’m going to use these experiences and put them, put my ink onto paper.’ And that’s what became the first book in the Lonely Hearts travel series, which was Destination Thailand, which follows a jilted backpacker called Georgia, who goes to find herself. And each book is a different country, a different destination that I’ve traveled to myself. And we follow her along this adventure with a whole cast of characters. But yes, like you said, that is a very different world to where I am today. Now I’m married and I’ve got two young children, two cats, very happily settled. And yeah, it all feels like a dream. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The ‘Backpacking Bridget Jones’ rebuilds trust Jenny Wheeler: Did that experience partly spark in you personally, that feeling of how well did I know this person that this could happen? Kate Gray: I think, you know what, I think you’ve hit something there. I think it made me feel like I knew what was happening and knew I could see my path. I could see everything. And then suddenly with this one decision that the rug had been pulled under my feet, literally. And I did question. It took me a long time to rebuild my trust in dating and men in particular, but also it gave me the skills to really trust myself that going backpacking by myself and going around India as a solo female traveler, it gave me such courage and confidence to rely on my own instincts that I became so much stronger because of it. So yeah, so it was. It was the best thing that ever happened. Now I can say that. Jenny Wheeler: Gosh, yes, they billed you as the ‘Backpacking Bridget Jones’ at one stage, which is also a great little tagline. So we do just have to ask, how did you build that courage up again? And where did you meet your husband? Kate Gray: So this is a nice twist, this is a film -like twist in my story and my plot is that my husband is a journalist and I contacted him because when I got my book deal, it was an E book digital first deal and I messaged him and I said, ‘Oh, I wonder if you could write an article for my mum’s local newspaper?’ That was where I was hitting my sights and he said, ‘I think I could do a bit better than that. Send me some photos and some information about everything.’ And he managed to get it in a regional newspaper and then all the nationals picked it up from there. Then I was on television, I was on radio and it was just a whirlwind. And we carried on talking throughout all of this. It went viral and he was the only one who I wanted to speak to and I think we instantly had this crazy connection. The ‘secret’ of Kate Gray’s success So yes, I married the man who broke my story with the world and now we have two wonderful children and again, like all wouldn’t have happened, those ‘sliding doors,’ all those little tiny decisions, all those moments in life. And yes, it was a bit crazy. Jenny Wheeler: Actually, I must admit that I picked it up online – the jilted story – in the Daily Mail, which is one of UK’s biggest metropolitans, so you really hit the headlines with it. Kate Gray: Yes, Jenny Wheeler: Turning away from the specific books to your wider career, was there a light bulb moment when you decided you wanted to write fiction? You did mention that you were in France. Had you had a long term ambition to be a novelist? Kate Gray: Yes. I’ve always loved books, loved libraries, I’ve loved writing, always short stories, I think, as I trained as a journalist, I went into public relations, so I’ve always been writing in my daily life. But I never knew if I could write a book, I think living in France and I was teaching English, but it was only part time and it was when I didn’t have children.   was single and I had so much free time and I thought ‘this is the time now, I’m never going to get this freedom in this, this amount hours in the day that I can literally just be selfish and do what I want.’ I’m going to learn and read all the craft books and go on courses and try and practice my art. I gave myself a deadline. I had to do it by the end of the year to try and get at least a very rough first draft done. And I did and I was able to sell it. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. If there was one thing that you would see as quotes the secret of your success in the publishing industry, what would it be? Kate Gray: I think to be resilient. I think you need a real thick skin in this industry. You need to be able to come up with ideas, but you also need to go through the day of writing and the words aren’t coming and you get writer’s block…. Perseverance is so important. What Kate Gray is reading now But it is a fantastic job. I do feel so lucky. I love connecting with readers. I love doing events. I love seeing the book when it’s all finished from that idea in my head, especially from that nightmare for The Honeymoon. It just still feels so magical. Jenny Wheeler: We probably should mention that after the Backpackers Books, you did then continue to write several other stand alone women’s fiction stories. Do you plan to continue with a two stream career writing some of the uplifting fiction under Katy Colins? Kate Gray: I’ve said she’s having a rest. She’s a bit tired. She’s not dead completely, but at the moment I am focusing on Kate Gray and the thriller world. And again, it all depends. Maybe I’ll have a dream next time and that will spark the next Katy Colins. But at the moment I’m enjoying the crime world and I’m enjoying getting to know my darker side and yeah, we’ll see. Never say never. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Wonderful. Let’s talk about Kate as reader. We always like to check in with our authors because this is a program where people love to binge read and are looking for their next favorite book. Tell us about what you’re reading at the moment and if there’s anything you’d recommend to listeners. Kate Gray: I’ve just finished the latest Lisa Jewell, None Of This Is True. she’s just the queen of the genre. It was amazing to read, but also quite depressing then to go back to my laptop and see this empty black page and think, ‘Oh my gosh, I’m never going to be as good as her.’ But I do read quite critically. So, I then go back and see how did she hide that red herring and how did she plot those clues and that sort of thing. I find it hard to really read for pleasure now because it’s part of the job. Beating writers block Another book I’ve read recently, which is a debut in a thriller genre is Hannah Rochelle called The Search Party that’s coming out next year, I think spring next year, which was really good. I found again. Her characterization is good. She’s also done women’s fiction before, so she knows how to get her characters. But I think maybe I need to have something light, a palate cleanser, because I have been reading a lot of crime recently. So if there’s anything you can recommend that’s I can get some lighter relief from, then I’d be definitely up for that. Jenny Wheeler: Great. One of the authors that I interviewed recently was Loretta Chase. She’s an absolute doyen of Regency Romance, and she’s got a series at the moment going called The Disgraceful Dukes. There’s these three dukes who are bad boy dukes, and they each one meet their nemesis in terms of a woman who tames them. And they’re actually very funny. She’s good at witty dialogue, so that might be a nice palate cleanser for you. Kate Gray: That sounds really good. I’ll look that up. Thank you. Jenny Wheeler: She actually had an interesting story because she’s been writing since the nineties, and two of the three books about the Dukes are out. But the third one, she had a terrible episode of writer’s block when she’s been writing for so many years, and she actually wrote about it in a blog a few months back now because she has got over it. She assures me that number three is going to be completed in first draft before the end of the year. Looking back down the tunnel of time…. It hooked me in enough that I really want to see what happens with number three, because this is one where the boy is already married, but you get the feeling – you get more than the feeling – in the first two books that the marriage isn’t going that well, but there’s no real clue as to why. And we agreed that might’ve been the difficulty because she had to go back and find a way to get so much backstory into a romance when they’re already married. That was probably part of the problem, but it’s got me hooked. Kate Gray: Sounds good. It’s really hard writing a series and like I said, writer’s block can strike at any time. I do sympathize with her. And, I don’t think there really is a cure either. The cure is to just keep going, plowing through and getting your bum in the chair and hoping that you can keep going with it. But no, I do sympathize. It’s horrible. Jenny Wheeler: That’s exactly what she did. And she said, she just knew every day she was writing absolute rubbish, but she kept writing rubbish. Kate Gray: Yeah, yeah, that sounds about right. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time. If there is one thing you’d change about your writing career, what would it be? Kate Gray: That’s a good question. I don’t think there’s anything I’d change. I don’t really like looking back and having regrets. I know there’s something I would change about myself as a writer, which would be my procrastination levels are… Like sky high. At the moment I’ve got an edit and it’s sitting on my laptop and I then try not to even look at my laptop and I’ll clean my skirting boards and I’ll clean out the fridge and I’ll have to suddenly go all the clothes, the children’s wardrobes, and, these pointless tasks I don’t need to do. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What’s next for Kate Gray author? But it’s to avoid doing the hard work. And I wish I wasn’t like that. I wish I was a bit more measured and organized and, and like I said, maybe more of a plotter that might help me feel a bit more like bite sized chunks maybe. But at the moment it’s every day that passes my deadlines getting closer and I’m in pure denial. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s gorgeous. What is next for Kate as author? What have you got on your desk over the next 12 months? Apart from obviously that edit. Yeah. Kate Gray: I’m gonna have to face the edit whether I like it or not. This is the second my second thriller, which I can’t really say much about apart from it’s quite different to the first. As it happens, it’s more of a locked room kind of mystery. It all happens in this really cool location over the course of just one night with a really small cast of characters, but the headache has been, which is why I’m really not wanting to do this edit. It’s because as soon as these characters start to die, be killed, the cast of characters get smaller so then it’s harder to hide who’s doing it. It has been like this game in my head of seeing the rooms and moving them around and what can they hear what can they see and so it’s been. It’s been quite meaty and chunky and I halfway wish I had just maybe written a sequel to The Honeymoon because I could imagine it would be a lot more smoother than this, but another part of me knows that actually it’s really good to challenge yourself as an author, keep it fresh and hope, to please the readers that they get something a little bit different. I’m not going to keep writing the same sort of books exactly to the kind of letter, but no, I just hope that people will enjoy it if they’ve enjoyed The Honeymoon as well. Where to find Kae Gray author online Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. Great. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Kate Gray: I love meeting readers, I love hearing from readers, I love being tagged in photos on all my socials. I’m on Kate Gray Author on most of my sites and Kate Gray Author website as well, which is going to go for a big refresh. I’m going to try and give it a bit of love, it’s been a bit neglected recently. That’s the problem when you’ve got books to write, everything else apart from my children’s wardrobe that I’ve suddenly cleared out, everything else gets neglected. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. So you do Facebook, Instagram. Do you do any TikTok? Kate Gray: I’ve done a couple, but again, it’s finding the time and that I could easily fill a whole day with trying to film a silly dance video with my book. And then I know that in the evening, I’ll be full of guilt. I didn’t actually use the time when the children were at school. So yeah, I try and stay off it if I can. But maybe when I’ve handed this edit in, I can have some free and some fun. That would be good. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, have you got an idea for the next book? Kate Gray: Vague-ish, there’s nothing concrete yet. I’m leaving my mind open. I’m praying for another nightmare. I’ve got my pen and paper by my bedside, just in case it strikes again. I might start eating a lot of cheese. But no, as yet, it’s a couple of ideas are floating around, but nothing’s set in stone. Jenny Wheeler: Kate, thank you so much for your time today. It’s been a real pleasure to talk. Kate Gray: It’s been so lovely. Thank you so much for having me. Jenny Wheeler: You’re very welcome. Thank you so much. If you enjoyed Kate Gray you might also enjoy Fiona Barton’s hot thrillers Fiona Barton’s first crime thriller The Widow was a best seller on both sides of the Atlantic Ocean and she hasn’t dropped her pace in the few years since.  Her third novel – The Suspect –newly released in the US – continues to show her a crime thriller breakout star – with a tale of two teens who go to Thailand for Gap year partying and find themselves in all sorts of trouble. LISTEN TO FIONA ON BINGE READING Next Week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading. A complete change of pace. Theodore Braun and a saga of dark ages in Europe, A Savage Moon, #4 in his Wanderer Chronicles. It’s Byzantium 718, AD, and an epic. spellbinding binding fantasy of blood and battle, weaving together history, fantasy, and ancient myth. Perfect for fans of The North Man and Game of Thrones. That’s next week on Binge Reading. And just a reminder before I go. If you enjoy the show, leave us a review. so others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time. And until then, happy reading.

Christine Wells has a gift for digging out history’s hidden stories, and her latest book, The Royal Windsor Secret. is the perfect, delicious mix of fact and speculation that her readers have come to love. In it Christine asks the question “What if it Edward, Prince of Wales, the man who briefly became King Edward VIII, had a love child?” Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and a chance remark from a friend suggesting Edward sowed wild oats during his stay in Australia in his youth. got Christine thinking. The result is another of her engrossing historical fiction tales, with plenty of fascinating historical fact spiced up with some “what if” suggestions. Encore is the show for returning authors, and this is Christine second appearance on the Binge Reading podcast. She was last on back in 2020 talking about her World War II spy stories, like The Juliette Code and Sisters Of The Resistance, the last one featuring Catherine Dior’s little known wartime activities. Our Reader Offers – Free and Sales Books Our reader offers this week include a Sale Special on Unbridled Vengeance, Book#5 in the Of Gold & Blood series, as part of the Fall in Love With Historical Romance offer. A rancher faces a trumped up murder charge. His beautiful French neighbor has facts that will clear his name, but she can only speak up at the risk of her own life. UNBRIDLED VENGEANCE SALE https://books.bookfunnel.com/fallinlovehistromance/agj3oedc0x We’ve also got another Kobo Free Genre List offer running until October 8th with lots of great first in series books and multiple genres. Available for free download, including Poisoned Legacy, Book #1 in the Of Gold & Blood series. Visit the following link(s) to see the promotion: ​https://www.kobo.com/p/free-ebooks​! If you live in a country that isn’t included in this promotion, you may have trouble accessing the sale link. If this happens, change the flag at the top of the Kobo homepage to one of the included countries to see the sale link properly. She’s a traveling singer. He’s an Aussie adventurer. Together, they’ll dig up the secrets of a deadly gold mine. FREE KOBO LIST BOOKS Links to things mentioned in the episode Marguerite Meller: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Alibert Duke of Windsor: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Alibert Wallis Simpson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wallis_Simpson Shepheard’s Hotel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shepheard%27s_Hotel Elizabeth Peter’s Amelia Peabody Mysteries: https://www.goodreads.com/series/40876-amelia-peabody Elizabeth Peters:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbara_Mertz Special Air Service History:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Special_Air_Service The Cartiers: the Untold Family History by Francesca Cartier Brickell: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/588686/the-cartiers-by-francesca-cartier-brickell/ Cartier designers:  https://www.madridluxurydistrict.com/en/asociado/cartier-2/ Paddy Bennett: Ian Fleming’s Secretary, the model for Miss Moneypenny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paddy_Ridsdale Mick Herron: https://www.mickherron.com/ Slow Horses: https://www.mickherron.com/titles/mick-herron-6/slow-horses/9781399803052/ Natasha Lester: The Disappearance of Astrid Bricard: https://www.goodreads.com/?ref=nav_hom Where to find Christine Wells online Website: Christine-wells.com Facebook: @christinewellsAuthor Instagram: @christinewells Introducing historic fiction author Christine Wells But now here’s Christine. Hello there, Christine. And welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Christine Wells: Hi Jenny, thanks so much for having me. Jenny Wheeler: The last time we talked together on Binge Reading was in May, 2020, and a tremendous amount of stuff has happened since then, including a pandemic. At that time, you were writing about World War II women spies, and this latest book changes things up a bit, doesn’t it? It’s not about spies anymore. It’s about possible secrets in the royal Windsor family. Tell us a little bit about The Royal Windsor Secret. Christine Wells: The Royal Windsor Secret is a story about Cleo Davenport, a young woman who’s grown up in Cairo in Egypt, who lives at the luxurious Shepheard’s Hotel. And she comes to believe that she is the secret illegitimate daughter of Edward VIII, who abdicated the throne to marry Wallis Simpson. And so, she goes on a quest to find her true parents. There’s also a thread about jewellery and Cleo’s love for jewellery. Of course, Wallis Simpson loves jewellery too. That plays a big part in it. Cleo wants to design, to be a jewellery designer. So that’s another thread to the story. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Now you take some early true events in the Prince of Wales’s life, and then you add a little bit of your own speculation to those events, don’t you? Tell us a bit about how you wove fact and fiction into your story. Christine Wells: Well, a little bit of a kernel of an idea came to me when a friend said that one royal personage, I think it was Edward VIII, had been out west in Queensland as part of their early Commonwealth visits. The young royals would come out to Australia for a while, and there were an awful lot of children born to families in that region who looked very much like Edward VIII. the Duke of Windsor. And that, that set a little kernel of “what if” in my mind. Enter Marguerite, the French courtesan But the early events you’re referring to, the Duke of Windsor, who was the Prince of Wales at the time, was stationed in France in World War I, and probably his first real affair as such was with a French courtesan called Marguerite Meller, as she was at the time. And in those days, it was still the days of the high class courtesan a la Gigi, somebody who was very refined and skilled at all different things, conversation and knew about politics and could be more than just a mistress, but a real companion to the men that they liaised with. Marguerite was in this old school style of courtesan and he had an affair with her. It’s pretty well accepted that he did, and she wrote a memoir. We don’t know if we can really trust Marguerite but… there are references to her in his letters as well. I started to think what if there was an illegitimate child who was the product of this liaison? And that’s where Cleo Davenport comes in. Jenny Wheeler: What sort of age difference was there between the two of them when they met? I got the impression that Edward was quite young and inexperienced in terms of sexual matters at the time that they met. Was that a correct idea? Christine Wells: Yes. It’s not really clear when Marguerite was born, but I think she would have been in her 30s and he would have been very young, around 20. There was a big age gap and it was really, at least to him, not serious, he, would say he loved her and spout all of these romantic things in his letters, no doubt, but in reality, it wasn’t like Wallace Simpson. I don’t think he ever was serious about her. He was quite besotted with her at the time. Jenny Wheeler: Is there any indication that she was his first lover? It sounds like the Queensland experience might put the lie to that for a start. Rueing the day he ever met her Christine Wells: No, I think she was probably, maybe not his first lover, but his first ongoing lover. very early. He was very naive and I think there was some kind of racy novel that he had been given to read by an older man and, it opened up an entirely new world to him and then he started pursuing romantic relationships when he was away from scrutiny from his family. In France what goes on in France stays in France. But of course, the royal family has always been quite permissive in respect to the men of the family’s affairs. The only thing you have to do is be discreet and usually they would choose married women. Any children of the relationship would be just accepted as a legitimate child of that marriage. Usually it wasn’t even an issue to have illegitimate children around. A number of them have been taken care of financially and so forth. So that’s where Cleo growing up quite privileged came from. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. I gather Marguerite has a very colorful life. We’re not going to do any spoilers by giving away too much information about what happens later in her story, but potentially she becomes an embarrassment to the Duke in her later life. And I gathered that he actually destroyed the pages of his diary that related to those earlier years. He definitely tries to obscure the trail of it. Is that factual? Christine Wells: Yes, I believe that’s the case. Andrew Rose, who wrote a couple of non-fiction books about Marguerite and her affair with the Prince of Wales, as he was then. The Duke of Windsor. He got permission to look at the archives. And that was his finding, that they’d been ripped out of the diary of the time, no doubt either he’d done that after their affair ended quite acrimoniously, or later on when, when other things unfolded and Marguerite came back to haunt him. Marguerite was an extremely tenacious and strong-minded woman and she could definitely make a lot of trouble for anyone if she set her mind to it. Never Miss out! 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The Royal Windsor Secret – great reviews Jenny Wheeler: The book’s had some great reviews. I’m just going to quote from a Washington Post one where it says “an absorbing novel that wends its way from Cairo to Paris, then onto London, Lisbon, and the wilds of Scotland; a globe-trotting trail of romance and mystery wrapped in historic detail.” The reception of the book must have pleased you. What’s the most exciting thing for you about the things that have happened so far? Christine Wells: Oh look, that was a bit of a highlight, the Washington Post but the highlight to me is hearing from my readers, because they’re the people I write the books for in the first place. The feedback is just starting. It’s just been released in the United States. It’s yet to be released here. In Australia That release date is on the 4th of October. You just love hearing once the readers start reading and getting all these lovely messages from people. That’s what really is the reward for me. I love writing and I would probably do it even if I didn’t have any readers, but it’s really nice that all that hard work is appreciated. Jenny Wheeler: A large part of the book does take place, as you’ve mentioned, in the Shepheard’s Hotel in Cairo, which I must admit, I didn’t realize existed, but it’s got a really famous history of its own, hasn’t it? What attracted you to set part of the story there and tell us about Shepheard’s? Christine Wells: Well, Shepheard’s Hotel, I first read about Shepheard’s Hotel in Elizabeth Peter’s amazing Amelia Peabody Mysteries, which if you haven’t read them, you must. they’re just fabulous. And it’s about a Victorian young lady who inherits money and decides that she’s going to take off to Egypt and meets an Egyptologist. It’s a series about how they dig up mummies and solve mysteries, but it’s just so witty and wonderful. Shepheard’s Hotel – a famed watering hole And they always stay at Shepheard’s Hotel. But I didn’t think much more about that. I think I came across Shepheard’s, probably when I was researching the The Juliet Code because the SAS, the Special Air Service, was actually, conceived and planned in Shepheard’s Hotel, When I was writing about, the SAS, I was learning about Shepheard’s and all the famous people who would stay there. There was Winston Churchill and Josephine Baker, Mark Twain. All of the Europeans, and a lot of Americans too, used to winter in Egypt. Shepheard’s played host to royalty and movie stars like Rita Hayworth, and the Aga Khan. It was full of these interesting people. Lawrence of Arabia used to sit in the foyer dressed up as a sheik and jump out the window when the press came after him. There’s all of these wonderful stories. There’s a story about how the keeper of the left luggage room would know exactly where your thing was years later when you came back. Winston Churchill left a book of poetry there in World War I, and he came back in World War II and it was there waiting for him. It’s just all these wonderful stories that came out of it. And I really wanted to set a book there. Jenny Wheeler: how did it come about that the SAS was actually conceived there though? Was it just a coincidence? There were a lot of influential men there at the same time? Christine Wells: All the officers used to stay there in World War II and that’s where the heads – now their names are escaping me – but the men who set up the SAS, because it was basically an initiative of the officers who were in another regiment and they decided that what needed to happen was to go in behind enemy lines and, and sabotage the Germans and the Italians defences in the north of Africa. SAS was born in the North African desert And they really had to do rigorous training. They had to be able to, march long distances with very little water. There was a story actually of one fellow who survived he was abandoned or everybody else died or something happened on his mission and the way he survived on his way back to civilization was drinking the water out of radiators of abandoned vehicles on the way. They were incredibly tough and just these amazing men and they go out on missions and they come back, heads full of sand, long beards. And they go and stay at Shepheard’s Hotel in between missions. Jenny Wheeler: And one of your main characters does have some time in the SAS during war, doesn’t he? Christine Wells: Yes, Cleo’s love interest, Brody joins the SAS. We see that the other side of the action, the anxious waiting while he’s on missions, while Cleo waits for him to come back. Jenny Wheeler: Now, Cleo, as we’ve mentioned, she’s passionate about developing a career as a designer of high fashion jewelry. And you have a lot of fascinating detail about the top jewelers and the fashions of that time, the 1920s and 30s. I wondered how you researched that aspect of the story. Christine Wells: Oh, it was a tough, tough job. No, there’s a wonderful book about the Cartiers by one of their descendants, and so I learned a lot about how they worked at the time because that era was really their heyday. They’ve never gone away and I’m sure they go from strength to strength. But the connection with Cartier is that Wallis Simpson bought a lot of her jewelry there and was given a lot of jewelry by the Duke of Windsor. And it was very personal jewelry. She had a bracelet full of crucifixes that marked a different special occasion in their relationship. And of course, her engagement ring came from there. So that was a theme I really wanted to explore because, of course, the Windsors are part of this story. And the Cartier connection really connects the two. Wallis Simpson and her Cartier jewels Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned also a famous flamingo brooch? Christine Wells: Oh, yes. It’s in a style called the Tutti Frutti, but it actually wasn’t called that at the time, unfortunately. I had to call it what they termed it then. Pierre de Couleur. It’s emeralds, rubies, and sapphires, so it’s all this multi coloured, amazing, and the designer, Pierre Lemarchand, who is also in the book, used to go to the Paris Zoo and study animals just to make sure he got their anatomy really right. Especially with the panther, which is the icon of Cartier. If you look at his bracelets, for example, this sinuous panther just wraps around your wrist and it looks like it could easily jump off your wrist and come to life, they’re just so beautifully done. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And Le Marchand, he was a bit subversive, wasn’t he? He styled a liberty bird, which got up the Nazi’s noses and got himself into trouble with them, didn’t he? Christine Wells: Yes. He and Jean Toussaint, who was the Cartier creative director at the time were hauled in for questioning because they had made this brooch that had a caged bird and it was seen to be subversive. It really did symbolize the French under German occupation, but they were able to say that this is a motif had been before, and they got away with it. There is a story that Coco Chanel intervened on their behalf, whether that’s true or not, I don’t know. Jenny Wheeler: That’s interesting, because I was going to ask you, in all the research you did in this period, and with all these famous people, what was the most surprising piece of information that you uncovered? And perhaps something that didn’t even get into the book, but were there any surprises for you amongst the things you learned? Christine Wells: I was very surprised, and this did make it into the book, about the attitude of Edward VIII slash the Duke of Windsor towards the Nazis. The shocking reality of Edward’s political views I had known that he was a sympathizer, but until I started researching this book, I didn’t quite realize the extent of it. There are arguments both ways, but I think there’s a lot of evidence to suggest that he probably, if the Nazis had occupied Britain, they would have made him King and made Wallace Simpson Queen. And that was quite shocking to me because looking back now, and knowing what the Nazis did, you can’t imagine anybody who would, in their right mind, support them. Especially not their occupation of your country. But it seems that the Duke of Windsor might have. Yeah, I found that incredibly shocking. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, it showed him to be a remarkably short sighted guy, really, didn’t it? Christine Wells: I think as I say in the book, he loved Germany because A, he had a lot of relatives there and B, he spent a wonderful time there with his cousins when he was a young man. He was fluent in German. Obviously, the royal family and the aristocracy were a little bit taken with fascism because the alternative at that stage was communism, which meant that they’d be out of a job and out of a position and possibly taken against the wall and shot. They were extremely affected by the Russian family’s demise. but I think that by the time we’re talking about it was pretty clear that Hitler had an agenda that was going to put Europe into a darkness. Even at that stage, they were persecuting Jews and Poland had been invaded, all these other countries had been occupied. I think I get that they were starting to sympathize with the fascists early in the 30s, but not later on when it became clear that this was how they were going to operate. Jenny Wheeler: Last time we talked, we did talk about the Juliet code. And since then, you’ve written a book about the “Real Miss Moneypenny.” Tell us a bit about that book and any other things you think of are of interest in the last couple of years. I wonder how the pandemic affected you, for example Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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That book, One Woman’s War, I had such a good time writing this book. It was inspired by a real woman called Paddy Bennett. And she was secretary to Ian Fleming who wrote the James Bond novels. She worked for him during World War II in naval intelligence. A lot of people don’t actually know that Ian Fleming was involved in intelligence. He wasn’t an agent himself. He was rather higher up in the food chain. He was the assistant to the head of Naval intelligence. And in those days, the Navy really had the most sophisticated intelligence service because they would be in charge of monitoring all of the communications on the ships. Paddy was involved in Operation Mincemeat, which you might have seen the movie or heard about it. It was a scheme to fool the Germans into expecting the Allies to invade in the wrong place, in the south of Europe. They fooled them into believing that it was going to be the Balkans or Greece rather than Sicily, which was the obvious place and which ended up being the place they did invade. I just found her so fascinating. She’s such a redoubtable woman and it was a real joy to write about her in One Woman’s War. Jenny Wheeler: fI did see the trailer for Operation Mincemeat and I thought it looked fabulous. I was just a bit sad that I didn’t quite get to see the full movie, but it looked fascinating. Christine Wells: I went to see it and Paddy wasn’t even in it, they kaleidoscoped her role with the role of another woman who was involved. I was a bit sad about that, but anyway that left me some room to tell my story, too. Jenny Wheeler: And how about the pandemic? Did it make it difficult to do research? What Christine Wells is reading right now Christine Wells: Yes, actually, it did. For One Woman’s War, there was an archive that I would have loved to have had access to, but it was in England, in the Winston Churchill archive, and you couldn’t even contact someone there to look it up for you because they were all shut down. That was a shame because it was a scrapbook of Paddy’s husband. It wouldn’t have been vital to the research, but it would have been really great for some background. and I think it had letters and things like that in it too. In a way it was it’s good for writers to be stuck at home because there wasn’t much distraction, and when my children were homeschooling, we would all go off to our offices and rooms to do our study for the day and me writing my books and then we’d meet up for lunch and then we’d go back again, and it was quite a nice routine, but not that I would wish that on the world, for that reason Jenny Wheeler: We always like to check with our writers about the books they’re reading at the moment. So just to check back in with you, what have you been reading over the last couple of years? And is there anything that you’d like to recommend to listeners? Christine Wells: I have been binging on Mick Herron’s Slow Horses series. Jenny Wheeler: Aha. Yes. Christine Wells: You might know the, the television series on Apple TV and which really is a brilliant adaptation, but the books are just fabulous. And I think one thing I noticed with Mick Herron is he has to describe the same place. It’s in every book, and in every book, he manages to find a new way to describe it. The books are about the misfits from MI5 in London who bungle their way through all of these cases and end up saving the day. It’s funny, and it’s clever, and I love a spy novel, so those ones are great. And then just recently I read an advanced copy of Natasha Lester’s The Disappearance of Astrid Bricard, which I highly recommend if you love all, the fashion and the history, and there’s a real feminist theme through this book. What’s next for Christine Wells author? Jenny Wheeler: I love the authorial comment about Mick Herron because a lot of readers may not even quite think of something like the fact that he’s describing the same places, but finding something fresh to say about them. Christine Wells: Yes, it’s a real skill when you’re writing a series to come up with something new every time. Jenny Wheeler: We’ve had Natasha on the show, at least once, maybe more than once and I love her work too. She’s another Australian author doing wonderfully internationally, isn’t she? Christine Wells: Oh, yes, she’s amazing and we actually have the same literary agent. When she was last in Brisbane, we met up and had a lovely time. She’s a lovely person as well. Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for Christine as author? What have you got on your desk over the next 12 months? What are you working on at the moment? Christine Wells: At the moment I’m finishing the first draft of a book called The Paris Gown, which is about three young women in 1950s Paris who share a Dior gown. It’s a bit of a harking back to Sisters of the Resistance, which was about Catherine Dior, a couple of books ago, and we did an interview on that one and yes, and then the next book I’ve also sold to the same publisher, so that will be following up. It’s tentatively titled The Lost Perfumes of Paris. So that’ll be a lot of fun to go on to next. Jenny Wheeler: You always seem to find such fascinating aspects of this history to bring out. it’s wonderful. Christine Wells: Oh, thank you very much. They really fascinate me, so hopefully they fascinate readers too. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Where you can find Christine Wells online Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. Look, we have come to the end of our time, but we always do like to ask, do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Christine Wells: Oh, I love hearing from readers, yes. I’m mostly on Instagram and Facebook. If you go to my website, Christine-wells. com, you’ll be able to click through to any of my social media. That’s probably the easiest way. Jenny Wheeler: that’s wonderful, Christine. Thanks so much for your time. It’s been wonderful hearing about all this research and what we’ve got in store in the future. Thanks so much. Christine Wells: Oh, thank you very much for having me, Jenny. It’s been a pleasure. If you enjoyed Christine Wells you might also enjoy…. Natasha Lester American ex-spy Alix returns to Paris in 1947, determined to build a new life for herself, with a fascinating job in the house of Christian Dior. But among the bolts of silk and Ritz cocktails an old enemy lies in wait. Alix must reach back unto her wartime past to try and trap her enemy. hoping it is not too late to build a new future out from under his shadow. LISTEN TO NATASHA LESTER Next Week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading, Kate Gray and a stunning psychological thriller, The Honeymoon. Newly wed couples on their honeymoon meet casually in a Bali bar. It’s a trip of a lifetime… until they find the body. Married life wasn’t meant to start like this. That’s next week on Binge Reading. And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they’d love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and Happy Reading.

​ Harry Whittaker inherited a heartbreaking task when his mother, the international best-selling author, Lucinda Riley, died in 2021. Millions of readers around the world were eagerly awaiting the last book in her acclaimed Seven Sisters series and Harry accepted the challenge of being the one to finish it. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler and on Binge Reading today, we have a special treat. Harry talks about how he tackled the final book in the series, Atlas, The Story Of Pa Salt, as the labour of love for his cherished mother. And how he’s now moving on finding his author voice with books that are very much his own. BookSweeps Draw This Week We’ve got a BookSweeps Draw of Literary, Historical and Book Club Fiction. which includes Sadie’s Vow, #1 in my Home At Last trilogy. If you haven’t read Sadie’s Vow, you can enter to win it on BookSweeps today, plus 25+ extra books, exciting literary, historical and book club fiction from a great collection of authors, as well as the brand new E reader. Details for where to enter the draw are on the show notes for this episode on The Joys Of Binge Reading website. (www.thejoysofbingereading.com) And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. ENTER BOOKSWEEPS DRAW Links for Information in this episode Lucinda Riley –Video on conceiving The Seven Sisters: https://youtu.be/KvjD3cxZDwA Lucinda Edmonds/Riley: https://lucindariley.co.uk/about-lucinda/ Bonnie Garmus: https://www.bonniegarmus.com/lessons-in-chemistry https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58065033-lessons-in-chemistry Brie Larson:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brie_Larson Nick Hornby: https://www.penguin.co.uk/authors/21856/nick-hornby High Fidelity:  https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/285092 Slam: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/411527.Slam About A Boy:  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4271.About_a_Boy David Nicholls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Nicholls_(writer) One Day: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6280118-one-day The Understudy: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/366842 Starter For Ten: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/107896.Starter_for_Ten Where to find Harry Whittaker online Website: www.harrywhittaker.co.uk Instagram: @HarryWhittakerAuthor Twitter:  @HarryTwittaker Introducing author Harry Whittaker Author Harry Whittaker – completing his mother’s legacy and starting his own Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Harry. Hello there, Harry, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Harry Whittaker: Hi Jenny, thanks so much for having me. I’m so excited to be talking to you in New Zealand from the UK. We’ve somehow made it work. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. After a little hiccup this morning. that’s right. We’re talking about Book Eight of The Seven Sisters. Atlas; The Story Of Pa Salt for the one or two people left in the world who don’t know that you inherited one of the most difficult tasks in the world, with this job to complete an internationally beloved series while also dealing with the personal loss of the author of it all. What force do you think has carried you through all of it. Harry Whittaker: That’s a good question. In a way there was so much pressure on me that in fact there was no pressure at all. If 50 million readers, a decade worth of mysteries, the fact that I’d only ever written children’s books and never a novel, and I knew that this was going to have to be a very beefy novel because it’s what Seven Sisters readers expect… The pressure was so ridiculous, and you combine everything I’ve just said with a really tight deadline. I had one year to do this and there could be no ifs or buts about that. I didn’t think about it because if you thought about it for more than 10 seconds you’d want to curl up into a ball and cry and never write another word. I wrote this book for one person and one person alone and that was my Mum. A final task, now completed It was a final task that I could complete for her and I really hope I did it justice. I suppose the force that carried me through was the thought of doing it for Mum. Jenny Wheeler: And having obviously read the book, there’s a seamless transition. Reviewers comment that they can’t tell the bits that Lucinda wrote and the bits that you wrote. The voice is carried through very evenly all the way. How did you do that? It seems almost miraculous. Harry Whittaker: That is a very generous thing that reviewers have said. I’m very proud if that is the case. I am thrilled to know that the majority of readers, I would say, feel like they’ve read a Lucinda Riley Seven Sisters book. The truth of the matter is, for the first 100 pages of Atlas, I tried very, very hard to imitate my mother’s style. I would second guess every other word, I would question the decisions I was having her characters make within the context of the book and it caused me great moral stress and panic, and long story short, Jenny, it was taking me far too long. I got to 100 pages, and I thought, I’m not gonna worry about that anymore, I’m just gonna write Atlas, the story… Because I was already a hundred pages in, and it had got its own voice. And I think that voice was the voice of The Seven Sisters, or the voice of Lucinda Riley. It wouldn’t have made sense to write it in any other way. And it just became an unconscious thing. And I’m really thrilled that people have thought that the transition was seamless. I’m very proud of that. The night it all began – Harry remembers it well Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Lucinda has got a wonderful video on your website talking about when she first conceived of this idea. And in that video, she relates how it was New Year’s Eve, I think 2013, if I recall correctly. And she says that she called the children out and pointed up at the stars. Do you remember that occurring and if it had any impact on you at the time? Harry Whittaker: I remember it very vividly, and a lot of people like to ask me about this story. And it is as charming as it has been recorded, I think, on the website. although I would alter one detail. So, say it was New Year’s Eve 2013. And I think mum said she went out to sit on the bench in our garden to look at the sky and find a bit of peace because the house was rather chaotic. Jenny, I’ll be honest, I think she went out for a cheeky cigarette. but nonetheless, she found herself looking up at the sky. And where I grew up, in the UK, in a county called Norfolk we’re famous for having very big skies, with very low light pollution and very flat land. The skies are always twinkling at night, and she had inspiration in that moment, whether you want to call it divine or creative or passionate. She knew she wanted to write about the mythology of The Seven Sisters stars. She’d always been interested in astrology and just like you will have read, she came into the house immediately, summoned everyone from their various bedrooms and the kitchen and wherever they were in the house. I remember, my youngest brother and sister were quite small at the time. I think they probably would have been below the age of 10. So they weren’t thrilled that they’d been pulled away from whatever it was, their X Box or their book. Beginning a seven book series a step of faith Lucinda Riley – launched an international phenomenon… She sat us all down in the sitting room, around the fire and said I’ve just had this idea. I want to write about The Seven Sisters I want to make them contemporary women. The little ones obviously were not very interested and my stepfather who had recently become her agent, I remember him looking very worried because the seven book series is very difficult to sell to anyone, and at that time She wasn’t like a global megastar like she is now. She did well, but you know, there was no guarantee that any of her publishers would say yes, of course, we’re gonna sign up seven books. But I just remember seeing how excited she was in that moment, and that is what has always stuck with me. And I thought, oh yeah, this will work, and this is going to be huge, because when Mum was passionate about something, she made things happen. I do remember it very clearly, and thank goodness she had that idea, because it has brought so much meaning and pleasure to people around the world. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. And it anticipates the obvious next question I was going to ask you, which was when you realized what a major success this book series was, but it sounds like right from the beginning you did grasp its significance. Harry Whittaker: I knew it would be big. I don’t think anyone could have predicted it would be this big. Certainly not Mum herself. The thing is with the Seven Sisters, my experience of it, is that the growth has been gradual. It hasn’t been an overnight sensation, as it were. You sometimes find that with books. Seven Sisters big moment came in Covid lockdown I suppose the huge moment for The Seven Sisters where I really felt it growing exponentially, was during the COVID pandemic in 2020, where we all had to stay at home, and we couldn’t travel. And suddenly people were picking up The Seven Sisters series, and even though they were sat in their chairs in their living rooms at home, they were going around the globe. One of the things that I think is so remarkable about The Seven Sisters is that you do feel as if you’ve visited these countries that mum was writing about. You feel like you’ve got a connection. That’s probably because the research was so important for her. She would visit the country she was going to write about, immerse herself in the culture, meet the local people, hear the local stories, and it was through that research that she was so accurately able to transfer a sense of place to the page. I think, 2020, ironically, that terrible time, was probably the moment where we all knew that The Seven Sisters was going viral, I think is probably the term you’d use these days. Jenny Wheeler: Because it’s obviously the classic armchair travel series, isn’t it, when you think about it? Harry Whittaker: Oh yeah, absolutely. And we were all sat in armchairs in our living rooms, not allowed to leave in 2020, so it makes sense that it exploded at that time. Jenny Wheeler: When did you first read any of the Seven Sisters books yourself? Harry Whittaker: I had a very close relationship with my Mum, it’s maybe a little cliché to say, but we were best friends. We had very similar brains and we really understood each other, and so one of the great joys for us both, I think, was whenever Mum was writing something, she’d give me the pages that she’d written over the last few days. It was very much the case with The Seven Sisters that I have been reading them since, I think it would be 2013. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Harry grew up reading everything Lucinda wrote It would be the case that she would go off, write 20 pages, 30 pages, and then I would get those pages, and we’d talk about them, and the plot, and what she envisaged happening, and they were some of the most special conversations I ever had with her. Jenny Wheeler: Indeed, you were there on the ground level right from the beginning, and all the little intricacies of the earlier books were somewhere planted away in your brain. Harry Whittaker: Yes, probably the thing that was most helpful in terms of me being ready to write Atlas was the rights for the Seven Sisters for the screen have bounced around so many production companies and producers and yadda yadda yadda. The company that owned them in 2020, and no longer owns them, they had employed me to work on the books to get them ready to transition to the screen. And as part of that work, I re-read every single Seven Sisters book and made copious notes on all of them for potential screenwriters and producers. I was in a really good place to begin things in 2021. If I hadn’t been in that position, there’s no doubt in my mind I wouldn’t have been able to get Atlas out so quickly. I would have had to reread all the books. I would have had to make meticulous notes, worked out the questions that readers wanted answering. So yes, that was very lucky, Jenny. Jenny Wheeler: Amidst all this, you also established a career as a BBC radio presenter and you took part in a renowned improv group as well. You obviously inherited Lucinda’s gift for the dramatic arts as well. Ill health forced Lucinda into fiction Harry Whittaker: Mum started out as an actor and became an author through necessity actually. She got ill. She got a form of glandular fever, I believe, the Epstein Bar virus. And it meant that she couldn’t get outta bed for the best part of a year. And Mum being Mum, she just thought, oh I’ll pass the time, I’ll write a book. And it was a handwritten manuscript and she sent it off to an agent. And Mum being Mum got a three book deal immediately. So that was her story of her transition there. My father was also an actor turned novelist, Owen Whittaker, is his name. Before that my grandmother was an actor. My great uncle was the lighting designer at the Royal Opera House. My great aunt was a singer. So, I think, there’s probably an element of genetics in it all. If you grow up and that’s the world that you know – performing, creativity – that is almost definitely going to feature quite heavily in your future life, I imagine. Jenny Wheeler: Did you also have a dream to be a fiction writer? Harry Whittaker: That is a great question. Throughout my entire existence, my mum would say to me, Harry, you have to be a writer. You’ve got to be, you’re a writer, Harry. Harry, you’re a writer. And I… Being a sort of petulant child and teenager went ‘no, I’m not going to do what you do.’ And that’s how I ended up becoming a radio presenter because I thought I’ll go and do something that is in no way connected to my lineage and that no one could accuse me of nepotism. What will ‘Harry Whittaker’ books be? And of course, Mum has had the last laugh there because I have now become a fiction writer and I love it. I really love it. I was very scared of novels before I wrote Atlas. I’d written four children’s books with Mum beforehand, but they’re very short. And now, having finished Pa Salt, the prospect of novels excite me, rather than intimidate me. Yeah, I guess it was a final gift from Mum. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fascinating. I’m going to ask you that question about whether you’ve now got her voice very well ingrained in you, but your next books, which are going to be Harry Whittaker books, are they going to have a Lucinda type of voice? Or are they going to be a completely different genre? And are you looking to discover Harry’s voice more? Harry Whittaker: I know what my voice is, I’m very clear on that. When I was writing Atlas, I was writing in Lucinda’s voice. And it’s not my natural voice. My natural voice is more humorous, more contemporary, probably quite British as well. And those are… the sort of novels I’m going to end up writing. I hope in the style of David Nicholls, Nick Hornby, that’s the sort of world I feel comfortable in. But it’s not the end of Lucinda Riley either, which is very exciting. I’m not sure whether you’re aware, but in the 1990s, she wrote under the name Lucinda Edmonds and published, I think, eight novels, perhaps nine under that name, and was moderately successful in the UK, but only the UK. And the plan was always that Mum would re-write and re-release some of the 90s novels under the name Lucinda Riley, so she would totally refresh them, rejuvenate storylines, add new plot threads. Lucinda Riley’s legacy beyond Seven Sisters And that’s already been done, that was the case for the novels The Italian Girl The Love Letter… I’m struggling to remember. Oh, The Angel Tree was another one. And I have three of those novels from the 1990s which I am going to re-edit and they will be released as new Lucinda Riley texts, which is very exciting. So her story continues. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, yes. No, I didn’t know that. So that’s amazing. Taking us back to Pa Salt, the writing process, just wonder how much planning Lucinda left in your hands. How much was totally up to you to decide and how you went about working through all of that. Did you sit at your desk from dawn till dusk, day after day, or did you continue with some of your BBC work? How did it all fit together? Harry Whittaker: I’ve mentioned the screen rights of The Seven Sisters during this chat, and in 2016 Mum was flown out to LA by a Hollywood production company who said, listen, we’re interested in buying The Seven Sisters from you. And I think at that stage, she was only halfway through book three, so this was very early on. And the production company said to her ‘if you want a deal, you’ve got to give us an ending. You’ve got to tell us where you think this thing is going, where you’re going to end up.’ And Mum didn’t have a clue. Did not have a clue. But she went into a room in LA and spent an afternoon penning a direction for the Seven Sisters to follow, and envisage where things might end up. It was 30 pages of script dialogue between two characters. A life changing five hour conversation I can mention the characters here. You’ve all read the novel between Atlas and Kreeg taking place on the Titan and the Olympus and within that dialogue, there was a suggestion of where she saw the plot going. The important thing about that was Mum never wrote anything down. The way she wrote her novels was she was dictated them, because she had a shoulder injury and she couldn’t type anymore. So, she dictated novels. As a consequence, nothing was ever written down, but by some miracle, these 30 pages existed. I had those 30 pages. I had my endless conversations with Mum over the years about where things might go. And then in Christmas 2019… Mum had been very sick. She was quite remarkable, Mum, because she went through periods of being devastatingly ill, but then would bounce back. Miraculously, quite literally miraculously. And we just thought that would be a pattern that would continue forever. But she had been very ill at this time, Christmas 2019, and we’d just finished writing our four children’s books. She asked me up to her bedroom, and we had a conversation about five hours long, probably the most important conversation I’ll ever have where she asked me to finish the Seven Sisters series if she were to die. And so that’s what I had. We didn’t talk about it again, after Christmas 2019, because we both knew what would happen if she were to die, but we both had to believe that she would survive, and she would get to finish the series. We only ever, ever, had one conversation about it. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The sheer power of a will to write But we knew what the plan was, and we felt very confident in each other. In terms of the writing process, wow, yes, it’s very odd looking back now. What a chaotic time, I suppose it was for me. I had a deadline of one year. Because everything was going to be published simultaneously, 11th of May, this year, 2023. And the translators need at least six months to do their thing. So I had to deliver the manuscript to everyone October 1st, 2022, and I started October 1st, 2021. I don’t have any romantic or glamorous stories. It was a case of sitting down and writing it. Basically, I did absolutely continue with all my work outside of Atlas; my radio shows continued. I actually had a UK tour of my improv show as well, which was very exciting for us because we hadn’t toured before. I had an image of mum in my mind. being furious if I didn’t go and do this tour. So huge chunks of Atlas were written in unglamorous hotel rooms and on trains and planes. I think the thing that I learned above all else is that you can write anywhere under any circumstances if you absolutely have to. Yes, beautiful views and organized studies are wonderful things, but they don’t really matter in the end. The way you write is you write. And that was how it got done. Miraculously, a year later, a finished product was handed in. Are there any dangling threads for other books? Jenny Wheeler: That is remarkable, my goodness me. Harry Whittaker: I’m quite tired, Jenny. I’m quite tired. Jenny Wheeler: I can understand that. There does seem to me to still be a few threads of Pa Salt’s life that might warrant further investigation. Is there any temptation to at least do any sort of sequel to Book 8? Harry Whittaker: That’s a very interesting question. The important thing to stress is that the Seven Sisters series is complete. It’s done. It’s Mum’s world and there will be no continuation of the Seven Sisters series from me. That would not be the right thing to do. People don’t want a Harry Whittaker written Seven Sisters. I think it’s fair to say, I did deliberately leave a few knots untied that could be explored in the future. But I’ve gotta say it would be a way down the line. The Seven Sisters series, it needs to settle and to rest I need to go and write my own books. But it is a magical world, and it would be foolish of me to say that we would never, ever return there in some capacity. I can say that if we did revisit the universe, it would not be a continuation of the story. It would perhaps feature some characters from the Seven Sisters universe, but it would be its own thing. Obviously at the end of at the end of we don’t really know who Elle’s brother is, or where he’s gone. We don’t know what happens to Maia’s son, and what his life has entailed. So yes, there are certain things that do suggest themselves, but there’ll be absolutely no new novels from that universe for at least five years. Seven Sisters on screen coming soon Jenny Wheeler: And what has happened to the film idea? Is that still alive? Harry Whittaker: Oh yeah, absolutely. The world of film and TV, as I’m sure you’re aware, is very fluid and nebulous and complex and there are so many moving parts and different people to please. Listen, I can just tell you, the deal is signed, the deal is done. I really hope that an announcement will be made in the next couple of months. I was very hopeful that an announcement would be made in May to coincide with the release of Atlas. But then there were some circumstances that were outside of our control and outside of the production house’s control that meant we had to wait a few months before certain documents could be signed. But it’s all done, it’s happening, and I wish I could say more because honestly I’ve been working on it for so long, Jenny that it’s becoming very frustrating that I can’t talk about anything. But no one will be unhappy when they find out who is making The Seven Sisters. I’m confident everyone around the world will be pleased when they find out who’s doing it. Jenny Wheeler: And when you say you’ve been working on it for so long, have you actually developed the first scripts? Harry Whittaker: I am not the screenwriter. I can’t tell you who the screenwriter is, but they are very, very successful. I respect them immensely. One of the most pleasing things for me, in terms of who the screenwriter is, because personally, and I would say this, I’m biased personally, I think the screenwriter is the most important person on the project. I’m very pleased to say that… Mum actually knew of her work one of her big projects in the UK. She was a huge fan of that project. It gives me immense pleasure to know that Mum would have approved of this person that’s going to be responsible for translating The Seven Sisters to the screen. In terms of whether a pilot has been written, I couldn’t possibly say. Lucinda Edmonds meet Lucinda Riley Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Now, Lucinda wrote many books apart from The Seven Sisters. Of course, her name will now always be linked with this series. But I wondered if you had any favorites amongst the ones that aren’t quite so well known. Harry Whittaker: Oh, what a great question. Yes, I think my favourite Lucinda book that’s not Seven Sisters has got to be The Girl on the Cliff, which is the second novel she wrote when she re-emerged as Lucinda Riley in 2010. It’s her most spiritual book. Lots of it is set in Ireland, her home country, the place she loved more than anywhere else. And therefore, it gives me immense amounts of pleasure to read. It’s not her most popular of titles. And it’s not because it’s not regarded as one of her best. It’s quite simply due to the fact that she changed publisher during the publication of The Girl on the Cliff. And there was some, I think, mildly bad blood which meant that the publisher that owned The Girl on the Cliff probably didn’t put as much behind it as they should have. It’s always my recommendation that people read The Girl on the Cliff because it’s a forgotten and truly hidden gem of her work, I love it. Jenny Wheeler: Turning from the specific books to your wider career, tell us about your show on the BBC. For those of us who haven’t had a chance to listen to it, what does it consist of? Harry Whittaker: It’s general entertainment, silly stories from the week, games, callers. We do a segment called When Harry Met Sally, which is literally where I meet a lady called Sally on the radio. I don’t know anything about her. I don’t know what she does, where she lives and we just have a chat. So stupid stuff like that, Jenny. It’s a fun way to spend time. How being a master of improv helps Harry’s narrative Jenny Wheeler: Look, that’s lovely. I wondered if being good at improv helped with writing dialogue in fiction. Harry Whittaker: Absolutely. I’m not sure about dialogue, but one thing I am certain in my mind that my improv career helped with is narrative. We’re probably best known in the UK for doing an improvised episode of a television program we have here called Doctor Who. So we will literally make up an episode of Doctor Who on the spot based on audience suggestions. And the way that we structure those episodes, the beats, the denouements, the threads that we have to weave on the spot, absolutely, there’s no doubt in my mind that that contributed to me being able to successfully, I hope I say that mildly successfully plot Atlas. Yes, I think it was important. Jenny Wheeler: Was there a moment in this whole process that you can think of where you put down the fingers off the typewriter or the laptop, some stage you took a great sigh and said to yourself, I’ve done it. I’ve actually done it. It could have been weeks after publication date, but was there one moment like that where it finally sunk in that you had actually done what you set out to do successfully. Harry Whittaker: I wish there was a moment like that. I really do, and that’s how I imagined it would be. I remember having conversations with friends saying, ‘Oh, I can’t wait for the day when it’s off my desk and I can breathe.’ In truth what happened was, I finished the first draft and, wrote the epilogue and sent it off. And that was hugely anticlimactic because it was like, ‘Oh my gosh, I’ve finished, but I haven’t really.’ Then there was three months of editing, and then it went to the publishers, and I thought maybe that would be the moment where I could breathe and go, ‘Oh, wonderful.’ Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Seven Sisters a ‘never-ending story’ What actually happened was that because Lucinda Riley has 40 publishers around the globe, which meant 40 editors, and I think there are nearly 50 translators, all of whom had worked on the Seven Sisters series for many years it became, over the next few months, a sort of intravenous drip feed of continuity catches. Things like oh, you might get an email from, I don’t know… Croatia or Germany saying, ‘Oh, Harry just remember Tiggy’s a vegan and you’ve got a drinking tea with milk on page 204. ‘ So what would then happen is I would then have to go through the manuscript, find any moment where Tiggy was around food or drink and make sure that I added a line saying, with almond milk for Tiggy or vegan sausages or whatever. And it was things like characters eye colours and surnames. And sometimes you would end up having a debate with the translators because they might have interpreted something in some way, and I might have interpreted something in another way. And it was really that until as late as February this year. It was exhausting. That was definitely the worst part of writing Atlas, was the… drip feed of editorial comments and suggestions. On the plus side though, it means that I like to think that despite the immense challenge of finishing the series everything is pretty on point, and it was a huge international team effort in the end in terms of getting surnames and dates and eye colours right I’m sure it’s something Mum would be proud of. I didn’t get a moment where I was like, ‘Oh, it’s done, wonderful.’ Publication day came around, I honestly hadn’t thought about publication day at all until about three days beforehand, and then I went into a wild panic. Because, there was a strong possibility that people would hate Atlas. They might feel like I’d ruined Mum’s legacy, and suddenly I was just hugely anxious about what it could entail. Atlas making No 1 spot in UK a milestone But thankfully, that doesn’t seem to have been the case so far, so that was good. But you’re still always on edge. I’m still touring Europe, talking about Atlas whilst working on the new project, so it doesn’t, it just doesn’t feel like it’s done. Particularly with the TV series bubbling as well, it’s very much ongoing for me. So I don’t feel like I have had a moment where I’ve been able to go, ‘Phenomenal.’  I think the closest I came to it probably UK. Just because I had said to my stepfather, who acts as the agent, I’ll be really happy for Mum and I on that day, if we can do that.  And I can look at our names together in the paper, in the number one spot, and say, oh I did that for you Mum, and we did that together. And that was special and that’s probably the closest I came to, breathing and celebrating anything. Jenny Wheeler: That’s a lovely story. You will have the continuity for the TV series pretty well meshed out with all of that back and forth, won’t you? Harry Whittaker: Oh yeah, absolutely. And the important thing is, I look forward to being able to tell everyone who this sreen writer is. I really trust her implicitly and that is such a joy to be able to hand over such an enormous project when you’re not writing it, and just go, okay, you know what you’re doing, and… it’s yours. Jenny Wheeler: Now look, turning to Harry as reader, because we always like to ask our guests about their own reading tastes. And often they say to us that they like to read what they write. But of course, in your case, that’s not necessarily the case at all. What author Harry Whittaker likes to read What do you personally like to read? And could you suggest a couple of contemporary books on sale at the moment that listeners might like to have a look at. Harry Whittaker: Yeah, absolutely. I always try and read really widely because I think that’s the best thing you can do as an author. I feel like if you just read your own genre. You’re not going to expand your own ability to have ideas. You can quite often, I find, you might find inspiration if you read some Dickens. You might think, oh, that’s a really wonderful way of writing a character, describing a building. Or F. Scott Fitzgerald, I’m in love with. Some of his visions of settings. I… I will keep with me forever. What have I read recently that I loved? Oh, Bonnie Garmus, Lessons in Chemistry. What a wonderful novel. Have you read it? Jenny Wheeler: No, Harry Whittaker: Oh, it’s a book that’s taking over the world at the moment and I was lucky enough to spend some time with Bonnie at an event in Norway and it is just the most funny and thought provoking and remarkable novel. That would be my number one recommendation. And it’s about to be, I think there’s a huge TV series about to be released on Apple TV starring Brie Larson, and I’ve gotta say, I think it is the quickest turnaround from novel to screen that I have ever known. It was quite funny when I was in in Norway with Bonnie her phone rang and she stood up and said, I’ve got to go, it’s Brie. I was like, oh wow, that’s incredible. So yes, Bonnie Garmus, Lessons in Chemistry would be my number one recommendation at the moment. Bonnie Garmus a No 1 recommendation I’ve just done a massive reread of Nick Hornby’s back catalogue. High Fidelity is hard to beat. I just finished reading Slam, which is great, About A Boy. Anything by David Nicholls I love, One Day in particular. But also you wrote a fantastic book called The Understudy, which is probably one of his least read of the back catalogue. Also Starter for Ten is brilliant. I don’t know where the Starter for Ten translates though. Do you, have books by David Nicholls if they reached New Zealand? Jenny Wheeler: yes, we do. I must admit, I don’t think I’ve read any though. Harry Whittaker: Starter for Ten is about a UK game show called University Challenge, and a boy, or a university student, who has a dream to compete on the game show, and yes, I’ll reveal the ending, he has an opportunity to cheat. And he accidentally exposes himself in front of the nation as a cheater. And it’s a really wonderful tale. And that probably tells you what I’m thinking about writing. The fact that I just re read a lot of Hornby and Nicholls. if you want to laugh and you want something that’s quite easy, anything by those two, but the number one recommendation, Bonny Garmus, Lessons in Chemistry. It’s an amazing book and people will love it. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. Thanks. Now, Harry, you have given us a bit of an idea of the arc of your next 12 months, but perhaps just encapsulating it down a bit. What’s coming across your desk in the next 12 months? What will your main area of attention be given to? What Harry is doing over next 12 months Harry Whittaker: I’m currently re-editing a Lucinda Edmonds book from the 90s which I really hope will – and this is probably an exclusive, so don’t tell too many people – I really hope that you’ll be reading it in Autumn 2024. I can’t really tell you what it’s about, unfortunately. But the book I’m working on, Mum regarded it as her best work ever. And it was the second novel she ever wrote. It’s very heavy compared to a lot of what she has written since. Some of the plot lines she’s dealing with here are difficult, and that requires my attention particularly in a very sensitive world. The last thing you want to do when you’re doing what I’m doing, which is releasing something when the author has died, is in any way have any reader say I’m not sure I quite agree with that viewpoint. It’s proving to be a very interesting task in a way I hadn’t anticipated it being. So that’s what I’m working on at the moment. I really hope that will be done by the end of the year. And then in January I will embark on my own novel, which I anticipate will take a year to do. And it will be contemporary, humorous, British, and about a school reunion. That’s how I’ll be spending my next year. Jenny Wheeler: And have you got an agent? Harry Whittaker: I do, yep it’s my stepfather, we have a hugely close relationship with all of Lucinda’s publishers, The way we work Lucinda Riley Unlimited is quite unique in the publishing world. We… Deal with everyone ourself and it’s like a family business, and that’s a much better way of doing things. We have a great relationship with all the publishers because of that. If we were going through a third party things tend to get diluted and left behind and miscommunicated. It is great to be friends with your publishers, that’s all I’ll say. Jenny Wheeler: I suspected your stepdad would be the agent, that’s why I asked the question actually, but it is lovely to hear that works that way. Where to find Harry Whittaker online Harry Whittaker: It’s good. Jenny Wheeler: Do you enjoy hearing from your readers and where can they find you? Harry Whittaker: I love hearing from readers. Absolutely. They can, probably the best thing to do if people want to have a conversation or have something unique to say is send me an email which can be found on my website. I think my website is harrywhittaker.co.uk And my email’s on there. I’m on all the usual social media, Instagram, I think I’m HarryWhittakerAuthor, Twitter, I’m HarryTwittaker, which was a great name when Twitter was called Twitter but now it’s called X, and so I’m HarryTwittaker on X, it doesn’t make any sense but yeah, you can, you can always reach me, it’s always lovely to hear from, from readers and… Probably 99. 9 percent of the correspondence is fantastic and it’s people talking about their memories of Mum and how much her books have meant to them. And maybe they’ve read them at a difficult time in their lives and Mum, through the power of her words, has helped them out. I particularly love stories about that. Then you get the 0.1% being like, you’re a disgrace, Harry Whittaker. This is nothing like Lucinda Riley. On page 24 you use the word misdemeanour. Lucinda Riley would never have used the word misdemeanour. And you just have to get over that. It does happen, unfortunately, I think when- and I’m talking about Lucinda Riley here – when you’re so successful, you’ve got to accept that some people aren’t going to like you and want to bring you down That is just a part of being an author. I think the good news is being a radio presenter for so many years has prepared me for such things because you can get nasty comments in real time. You can see them coming in on the computer, the texts or whatever. And again, it’s that thing of 99 percent of people are lovely, but you’ll always think about that one text saying, ‘oh, bore off, you’ve got the worst voice in the world’ or whatever. But yes, I’ve been well prepared for the world in which we live, by the radio. Jenny Wheeler: Harry, thank you so much. I think the achievement you’ve made is remarkable. The way that you’ve remained so upbeat through what has been, a trial really, a long trial is amazing. So congratulations. Harry Whittaker: Thank you, Jenny. It’s been a real pleasure to talk with you. If you enjoyed Harry you might also enjoy… Belinda Alexandra’s international sagas…. Belinda Alexandra is an international bestselling author with a whole string of blockbuster historicals to her credit, but she has taken a new path with her latest book, The Mystery Woman… LISTEN TO BELINDA ALEXANDRA Next Week on Binge Reading… Next week on Binge Reading, popular Australian historical fiction author, Christine Wells was last on Binge Reading in May, 2020, talking about her World War II spy fiction. Now she returns with another sweeping historical novel of love ambition and what family really means. The Royal Windsor Secret delves into Edward, Prince of Wales’s shrouded private life. There has always been a mystery about Cleo’s birth. But could it be she’s King Edward VIII’s secret love child? listen to Christine wells ON WOMAN SPIES That’s next week on The Joys of Binge Reading. And just a final reminder, everyone. If you enjoy the show. Please leave us a review, so others will find us too. As I’ve said before, word of mouth is still the best form of recommendation. That’s it for now. I see you next time and happy reading!

Loretta Chase is a doyenne of Regency romance with nearly 30 books in her back list. And she still winning awards. Ten Things I Hate About The Duke, won an AWA cherished award, one of the old Rita’s now called a Vivian for the best long form historical fiction. And it’s just the icing on the cake for a writer who’s already enjoyed a fantastic career. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and in Binge Reading today, Loretta talks honestly about getting over writer’s block when you’ve already published 28 books and why she loves writing about impossible men, like the Dis Graceful Dukes in her latest series. That’s strictly in fiction, not in real life. No, no, no. Pure Hearts Giveaway Our Giveaway this week is The Magic of Pure Hearts Giveaway. Not just romance, but a delightful full range choice, from adventure with a touch of fantasy as well. For a limited time only Sadie’s Vow #1 in the Home At Last series is my contribution to this freebie list. Sadie chases from New York to San Francisco after her wayward sister becomes infatuated by a mob boss and is blind to the dangers she is letting herself in for. DOWNLOAD FREE ROMANCE BOOKS ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/themagicofpurehearts2/ekkk84hvxg And remember if you enjoyed the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best form of recommendation and you want your friends to know about a show that will recommend great books for them. don’t you? Sure you do. Links to items mentioned in this episode The classic romance Loretta read early in her career Kathleen Woodiwiss: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/88445.Kathleen_E_Woodiwiss Edith Layton: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/74459.Edith_Layton Mary Jo Putney: https://maryjoputney.com/ Jo Beverley: https://www.jobev.com/ Who Loretta’s Reading Right Now: Carl Hiaasen: https://carlhiaasen.com/ Tim Dorsey: https://www.timdorsey.com/ Terry Pratchett:https://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/ Kristan Higgins: https://www.kristanhiggins.com/ Kristan Higgins on The Joys of Binge Reading: https://thejoysofbingereading.com/kristan-higgins-queen-of-love-and-laughs/ Two Nerdy History Girls (Blog and Podcast): https://lorettachase.com/blog/2022/1/10/the-two-nerdy-history-girls-return-engagement Susan Holloway Scott: https://susanhollowayscott.com/ Caroline Linden Books and Rom Cons (Conferences) https://www.carolinelinden.com/index.html https://www.carolinelinden.com/aboutcaroline.html Harry Whittaker: https://www.harrywhittaker.co.uk/ Atlas: The Story of Pa Salt: https://www.panmacmillan.com/authors/lucinda-riley/atlas-the-story-of-pa-salt/9781529043525 Where to find Loretta Chase online Website: https://lorettachase.com/ Blog: https://lorettachase.com/blog Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/AuthorLorettaChase/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lorettachaseauthor/ Introducing Loretta Chase – Regency queen But now here’s Loretta. Hello there, Loretta, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Loretta Chase – doyenne of Regency romance Loretta Chase: Jenny, I am so honored to be here. Jenny Wheeler: You’re one of the doyennes of romance writing. You’ve written 28 historical romances starting back in the 1990s, and you’ve won numerous awards. The most recent one, Ten Things I Hate About the Duke, just won an RWA award for the best long historical. That’s a great track record you can be proud of. Loretta Chase: I really am. I’m very proud of that book. I was so happy when it won the award. I felt as though those two books, the first two in the Duke series, were strong work. So it was great to have that recognition. Jenny Wheeler: And just as a little aside, they’re calling it by a different name. They’re calling it a Vivian, aren’t they? But is that the same as the old Rita? Loretta Chase: Yes, it is the same. They’ve changed the award itself. It looks different and they’ve given it a different name, but it’s basically the same thing. from Romance Writers of America. Jenny Wheeler: ‘Ten things’ is the second in your most recent series. And I found it really hilarious. They’re called the Dis-Graces with a little hyphen between the ‘dis’ and the ‘graceful.’ And they feature as three bad boy aristocrats, Ripley, Ashmont and Blackwood. Tell us about the “three Dis-Graces.” The attraction of ‘impossible’ men Loretta Chase: Oh, I love these guys so much. And I’m loving them more with every book. Now that I’m working on the third one, I’m having so much insight into their characters. I see them as very rich, privileged, men who started acting up when they were in school and just rebelling against everything. Rebelling against good behavior and only interested in having fun. Each of them has a distinct personality in my mind. So Ashmont, who was in the most recent published book comes across as not too swift, but in reality, I felt as though, yes, he has a brain. He’s just been too lazy to use it until he meets a woman who forces him to start thinking because he wants her. He wants to please her, and it makes him step up his game, and he has to start thinking and using that brain that he has, and I loved doing that. Jenny Wheeler: You say you undertook this task with delight because you’re “attracted to,” quotes, “impossible men in fiction only.” I’m glad to hear that. What is it about impossible men that you find so appealing? Loretta Chase: I think part of it is the fun of matching them up to women who will put them in their place. Women who require them to ‘Up their game.’ To be more intelligent. Think about things that maybe they haven’t thought about before. And the more difficult the guy is, the more challenging and fun it is for me to create a situation and a heroine who’s going to make them really work for the relationship. And I think that’s a good start for the relationship if the guy has to work at it, it’s not just handed to him. Social outcasts who need smart women Jenny Wheeler: yes, you say that despite being under 30, attractive and rich, they’re all social outcasts at the start. And that takes some doing, doesn’t it? Although still the young ladies probably throw themselves at them because they are rich and attractive, but the women that they become interested in actually disdain them, don’t they? They need to be chased. Loretta Chase: Yes, because the women are looking at them objectively. They’re not looking at them in terms of oh he’s a rich person who’s got the highest rank possible in the aristocracy. They’re looking at this person as a man, and what kind of man In other words, the women are being more rational than women often are about men. You see an attractive man, sometimes you’re not thinking clearly, but this is fiction. In real life, men like the kinds of men that I create my stories. I wouldn’t go near them. They’re not gonna get better. they’re like that now. It would take a miracle. They have to fix themselves. No, but in fiction, that’s the wonderful thing about writing romance. We create this ideal world where things go right, love goes right. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. So is that part of the attraction of Regency as a genre for you? Loretta Chase: I think that’s part of it. The thing I like about writing in the early 19th century and setting it in England, partly is the escapism factor. Partly I love doing the research and I think it was a very interesting time historically. Mostly in terms of social history. I like talking about the clothing. I like talking about the circumstances of their lives. I’ve made a study of coaching routes and transportation. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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And then when you get to the Victorian period, it’s not quite so interesting to me. The hypocrisy starts to grow. The religious evangelism starts to grow, and that’s not something I’m really comfortable with. So the Regency’s been great for me to work in. Jenny Wheeler: Just slightly reverting back to the bad boy theme. You had an earlier series called the Dressmaker series, and I noticed also that you had a temptation there. There was this family called the Dreadful DeLuceys a “notorious lot of blue blooded liars, frauds, and swindlers” who also get their comeuppance from a French family of young women who are extremely talented. It allowed you to introduce them to devious and ambitious woman. Tell us a little bit about that. It sounds absolutely delicious as well. Loretta Chase: Oh, the idea for writing about the dressmakers came from my agent, but as soon as she mentioned it, that pieces started falling into place. And I was thinking I had created the Dreadful DeLuceys a couple of several books earlier in my Carsington Brothers series. And I thought, Oh, what about the women? What would these women be like? And I loved the idea of these very ambitious women coming to England and being determined to be great successes with their dressmaking. And I loved that the women who are entrepreneurs who are making a life for themselves, who are facing these challenges and they deal with them. There’s one woman who’s widowed, so she’s raising a child on her own, but she’s working with her sisters. It was just a great situation for me to work with and the fact that they were French and they had exquisite taste in clothing. And I do a lot of research in the clothing of the time period. That was all it was just gravy. I really had a great time with those women. Living in a Loretta Chase universe Jenny Wheeler: It sounds like you have created a Loretta Chase universe that they do cross credit amongst some of the characters. Is that how they work? Loretta Chase: Yes, that’s how it’s evolved for me. I’ve noticed that sometimes I mention characters from other books in a current book or a house that appeared that I created for a book, say three books ago, reappears in the story, or a character maybe a minor character keeps reappearing. There’s a, street child who has appeared in about the last –  I think the last three or four –  books. And he’s in the one I’m currently working on. So yes, definitely, I’ve created my own special world. I’ve stolen houses that actually existed and given them to my characters. So yes, a Loretta Chase world. Jenny Wheeler: Your writing always has an edge of humor and really slick dialogue, and I noticed on your website, you remark that you started with the idea that you were going to write the great American novel, but you think your sense of humor got in the way. The great American novel is still in the bottom drawer, is it? Loretta Chase: Oh, yes, absolutely. That was the point where I thought I was going to be writing literary fiction, and it turns out that’s not me. I’m a popular fiction writer, popular literature. And once I started to write romances, I realized it was perfect for me, and that’s where I belong. I’m very comfortable in this world. I think more comfortable all the time. Jenny Wheeler: And how did that realization occur? How Loretta discovered she was made for romance Loretta Chase: it’s a funny story. I majored in English in college and in that environment, you’re discouraged from appreciating popular literature. And romance of course was really scorned. And so, I came to romance rather late. And it was only as I was trying to find my way as a novelist that I discovered that popular fiction seemed to suit me better. I realized the thing that I really loved about even the great literature, classic literature, that I had read, was the love story. It was unsatisfying to me if the love story went wrong. So often if the heroine had sex outside of marriage or fell in love with the wrong guy, something terrible happened to her. And I felt like this isn’t right. They should have their happily ever after and romance offered that. And so I was fairly quickly converted, once I started reading romances. I said, ‘Oh, this is for me.’ Jenny Wheeler: And do you remember who those first romance authors were that you read? Were there any names that still come to mind? Loretta Chase: I started out reading the very big historical romances by people like Kathleen Woodiwiss. But then later, it was my sister actually, because my sister was a romance reader from an early age, and she was the one. When I expressed an interest in romance, she was the one who started handing me books and saying, maybe you’ll like this. Maybe you’ll like this. At one point. She started giving me the Regencies. And there were people like Edith Layton, and it’s hard for me to remember all the names right now Mary Jo Putney and Joe Beverly and others, and what I liked about it was there was usually humor there was often this lovely repartee, and that was very appealing to me. Loretta – the ‘only romance set in Albania’ And also the Regencies, the traditional regencies were shorter books, and I thought this is more my speed for starting out. I think I can handle writing a shorter book. So that was my way of moving into the romance world. And it was only after I’d written six traditional regencies that I tried the longer versions with The Lion’s Daughter, and that was because my editor at the time, my paperback editor, had asked me if I would be interested in writing a longer book. Jenny Wheeler: What was The Lion’s Daughter? Loretta Chase: The Lion’s Daughter was set in Albania. I think it might be the only historical romance ever set in Albania. And it was, in the swashbuckling mode, more like the Kathleen Woodiwiss kinds of stories with a big landscape. They start out in Albania, and they end up in England, and it’s a pretty big story, but it was fun for me. I wanted to write something that I knew, and I am Albanian. My parents came from Albania. and I thought, oh, this is different. No one will be writing about Albania. That was how I ended up writing that book. Jenny Wheeler: Some of the biggest names in romance writing, including Julia Quinn, have written very congratulatory comments on your work. That must give you a sense of validation of your peers like nothing else could really, Loretta Chase: Oh, that’s a really big deal. It’s very important to me to have your peers appreciate your work, speak highly of your work. I don’t want to say that it’s better than having the readers love it because the readers are the people that make your career possible. So there’s that, but there’s a special thing about having your colleagues appreciate your work. Praise from peers like Julia Quinn – ‘without price’ It’s just, I don’t know, maybe it’s like the thing when you’re in a classroom and the teacher gives you an A. The other students might dig what you do, but you’ve got the teacher saying, oh, that’s good work. Also they’re appreciating it from the standpoint of people who are also doing the work and they know what’s involved. There’s that too, that makes it even better. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve been very honest about sharing your difficulties with the book that you’re currently writing, The third of the Dis-Graces. You’ve said, I can’t remember where I saw it. It must have been on an online blog, although when I went back to look, I couldn’t quite find it again. But you were saying that it hit a bit of a wall with your writing. In fact, I think you even did mention the phrase ‘writer’s block,’ which most professional writers tend to, insist doesn’t exist. Tell us about this difficult period you’ve been going through and have you broken through yet? Loretta Chase: I’ll start with the good news. I’ve definitely broken through. The book is proceeding now. I don’t sit down at the laptop and stare into space or the abyss and say, I want to shoot myself. No, the story is actually progressing and I’m very happy to sit down to work, which was not the case for a long time because it was such a struggle. Early in my career, I thought there was no such thing as writer’s block because I was so filled with ideas. It’s like I couldn’t write fast enough. But I found out that things can happen in your life or your environment that are going to affect you one way or another. And, they can cripple you in terms of writing. If I were a visual artist, it might be a similar thing, like nothing comes. And that’s because something in your world is disturbing you on a vital level. Beating writer’s block after 28 novels And in this case, I just had to work through it. I had to be patient. It’s been several years since the last book came out, but I have a decent chance of finishing this book by the end of the year. Yes. Anyway, it was a dark time. It was not pleasant, but I have survived and the book is coming along. Jenny Wheeler: Is that the worst episode of that kind of diffidence that you’ve experienced? Loretta Chase: It’s the second time I’ve experienced it. I think this was the worst. The last time it happened, I just completely walked away from writing. I stopped writing novels for about 4 years. I think something like that. But this time I just kept at it because even though I was writing tons and tons of pages of trash and everything had to be deleted I just kept at it.   refused to be vanquished by whatever was bothering me. I knew because I had gone through this before that you can eventually get through it. And that was my attitude and that’s been my attitude for the past few years and it’s paid off. Jenny Wheeler: That is one of the little pieces of wisdom that people give advice to young writers that they need a first draft, even if it’s rubbish, to be able to work on, and so you’re very much bearing that out, aren’t you? That even if you believe it’s trash, you have to keep going. Loretta Chase: Yes. And one of the things I always kept in mind was Nora Roberts had said something about, I think this is this was a quote. “I can fix a bad page, but I can’t fix a blank page.” And that was my mantra. Jenny Wheeler: I have read the first two books in The Difficult Dukes, and I’m absolutely tongue hanging out for what happens with the last one, Blackwood, because he’s got already got some story set up in the first two books. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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But I wondered if because Blackwood is already married, it was difficult to write it as a romance? Loretta Chase: What I realized was the problem in terms of the structure of the book was the backstory and it’s very hard to feed all that backstory into. the present. What I’ve done is go back to the start of their relationship. So we’re going to get the courtship, and that’s part of the book. And then we’re going to move into what’s happening now between them. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Loretta Chase: We examine what’s thrown things off between them. And I realized, okay. I needed to understand their relationship to really understand what had gone wrong with it. so that took a little while to figure out, but I got that going. They weren’t cooperating with me for a long time. She didn’t like the way I characterized her. And he wouldn’t talk and it was just so frustrating. And then I can’t remember when it happened several months ago. Things just started to open up. It was like, I must have written a line or something. And then she was happy. She was okay with that. And now she’s behaving herself and now he’s talking and he’s doing what he’s supposed to do. I know this sounds so weird, but the characters, they’re in your head, and you need to go with whatever’s in there, and it’s, I don’t know whether it’s the subconscious or what but you’re either true to the characters or you’re not, and if I’m not true to the characters, I can’t write the story. How Loretta got into writing fiction Jenny Wheeler: It feels that way, when you read it, that the characters have definitely got strong lives of their own. Have you always wanted to be a writer or was there a Eureka moment where you thought, this is what I really want to do? Loretta Chase: I always wanted to be a writer. I wrote a play when I was nine years old. It had about 50 scenes in it, or 50 acts, because I didn’t know how to write a play, but I was going to write a play. And I have been writing little stories ever since then and making up stories. There was a time when I was torn between whether I was going to do visual art or I was going to do writing, but by the time I had graduated from college I was pretty certain it was going to be writing. That’s where I felt most at home. Jenny Wheeler: And you were lucky enough to be able to transition into that almost straight away from college? Loretta Chase: First I was writing freelance. Mainly I was writing scripts for video, and I had been doing that for a couple of years. Then I started dating my husband, who was a video producer, and by this time we were in a relationship, and at one point he asked me what I really wanted to do with my life? I admitted that what I really wanted to do was to write a novel, and then I burst into tears and said I was so frustrated because I had been trying and trying and trying to write a novel, and nothing ever happened. But something clicked in me after that conversation, and I thought ‘I write video scripts. I know how to do that.’ As long as I know what the structure of the thing is, and what’s the message, I can write something. What Loretta is reading now And I realized that popular fiction has structure, a very clear structure. If you’re writing mysteries, you know what you have to do. You have to solve the crime by the end. And if you’re writing a romance, you know you want to have happily ever after. Love conquers all. And once I had that in mind, I knew I could do it. It was like it’s going to be like a video script, only much longer. And plus, I’ve had all this practice of writing dialogue. So that gave me the confidence to go with my strength, which was dialogue. And that was the thing I did with my very first book. My husband has to get some credit for forcing me to face this frightening thing of “I want to write an author.” Jenny Wheeler: Was he encouraging? Loretta Chase: Very. He’s always been encouraging. Always very, very supportive. We brainstorm when I’m stuck on a scene and he helps me with action scenes. So yes, always has been very, very supportive. Jenny Wheeler: Turning to Loretta as reader, because we’re starting to come to the end of our time together. I imagine you’ve also been a passionate reader your whole life. Tell us what you’re reading at the moment and if you’ve got anything you’d like to recommend to the listeners. Loretta Chase: I tend to read outside my genre for the most part. For various reasons. Sometimes it feels like I’m working, because my head goes into the editing phase. I tend to read mystery stories. Right now I’m reading Carl Hiaassen. Is that familiar to you? Mysteries on the bedside table Jenny Wheeler: Yes, he is. Loretta Chase: I love his books. I alternate. Sometimes I’ll read some history. for research or to get ideas, but I tend to read murder mysteries. I like some of the Florida writers, like Carl, and Tim Dorsey. I love Terry Pratchett. And I recently discovered, I feel so stupid that it took me so long to get to her books. I recently discovered Kristan Higgins. I met her at a conference in the spring and I thought she was so interesting and funny and nice. I bought one of her books. And I’ve just loved it. It made me cry and cry and cry, but I just loved it so much. So I’ve bought several others of her books. So I would definitely recommend Kristan Higgins. There’s so many writers. There’s so many romance writers. There are so many good books. It’s just like really hard for me to pick one. So I’m just mentioning the most recent. Jenny Wheeler: Of course, we, I appreciate that. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there’s one thing about your creative career that you’d change, what would it be? Loretta Chase: I was not very savvy. When I started out and I think I would have taken a little more time in terms of finding an agent. I had a good agent to start out with, but she wasn’t quite what I needed. And I didn’t realize that until I found the agent who is absolutely the right one for me. It’s really very much a business thing. It was my business head that was not well developed. But then what did I know? I was just starting out. It’s very hard to understand these things when you’re just starting out. What the next 12 months hold for Loretta Chase Jenny Wheeler: Yes, absolutely. What’s next for you as an author? What have you got on your desk over the next 12 months? Loretta Chase: For the next several months, I’m going to be finishing the current book, which is the Blackwoods story. And after that, I’m not positive where I’m going to go, whether I’ll start a new series or I’ll pick up on one of my secondary characters in this book. I have to keep my mind on the one book that I’m working on so that I stay focused. Otherwise, it’s just too tempting to wander off into sidetracks and that’s not good for me. Jenny Wheeler: I guess the Blackwoods book doesn’t have a title yet? Loretta Chase: It does not have an official title. I can’t talk about titles until the book’s been turned in and my publisher has approved of the titles. We’re just working titles at this point. So right now, it’s just work in progress. Jenny Wheeler: Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Loretta Chase: I do. I love interacting with my readers. We’ve got a rom con coming up in the spring again. It’s in Massachusetts. But online, I have been on Facebook and Instagram, and I have a website. But while I’ve been trying to finish this book in a more timely fashion, I have withdrawn a bit from social media to stay focused on the book, but I do have a Facebook page, and I do have an Instagram page, Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Two Nerdy History Girls podcast Jenny Wheeler: Do you sometimes also do a podcast with another author? it’s just rung bells in the back of my head. I thought you did occasionally do a podcast. Loretta Chase: Yes Susan Holloway Scott and I used to have a blog together called Two Nerdy History Girls, and a librarian, she’s so smart, this wonderful librarian in eastern Massachusetts invited us to do podcasts, as The Two Nerdy History Girls, and we’ve done several of them. So now we seem to be doing 1 every 6 months. It looks like we have another 1 coming up in January. And those are really fun because we try to deal with all kinds of history questions and history myths. Susan’s working in a slightly different era than I am right now, she’s dealing with the early America, post colonial America, the Revolutionary era America, and mine, of course, is19th century England, for the most part. We’re friends and we talk about these things all the time and exchange information. It’s really fun to, to be in the podcast and answer questions from the readers. It’s it’s one of the high points of the year for me for podcasts. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s great. You must give us the link so that we can include it in the show notes for this episode. Just flicking back a moment. You mentioned a romcon. What was that about? Just a minute ago, you mentioned a romcon. Loretta Chase: The rom con has been hosted by the same librarian who does the podcast. She has set up with author Caroline Linden rom cons in I guess the last one was in Ashland, Massachusetts at a library and they invite It’s Several authors, I think about a dozen authors and it’s a gathering. Where readers can find Loretta online We have a book signing. There are a couple of things where we play Games and it’s a great opportunity to interact with readers and we’ve had readers come from. Far and wide, actually, I was very surprised some people that drove. A long distance to come to the wrong calm to meet the other authors. Jenny Wheeler: So do we already had a link for that, that we could put in the notes? Loretta Chase: Yes, I can send you the links to the rom com. I won’t know for a while, but I can give you general information and I do always post this information on my blog as soon as I get. The material from whoever’s hosting the event. I do post them on my blog and that gets posted to Facebook and Instagram Jenny Wheeler: Oh, wonderful. That’s fantastic. I thought I heard you say rom com C O M, but it’s rom con C O N. Isn’t it? Conference. Is that? Look, wonderful, Loretta. Thank you so much for your time today. It’s been fascinating to talk Loretta Chase: Thank you so much. Jenny. I’ve really enjoyed this. Jenny Wheeler: And very encouraging for people to hear. The way you’ve worked through that period of bleakness and come out the other side. It gives people hope in lots of ways, I think. Loretta Chase: I hope so. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. And we’re looking forward to the Blackwoods. Thanks so much. Loretta Chase: Thank you Jenny. If you enjoyed Loretta you might also enjoy… Stephanie Laurens is another outstanding, award winning and best selling Regency Romance star… Hear her talk about her recent work on The Joys of Binge Reading….. LISTEN TO STEPHANIE Next week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading, a very special treat. Harry Whittaker, Lucinda Riley’s devoted son and the man who completed the international best-selling series of The Seven Sisters with Atlas: The Story of Pa Salt, when Lucinda sadly died in June, 2021. He chats freely about inheriting his mother’s legacy completing the book millions of readers were waiting for. and finding his own voice now as the novelist. That’s next week on The Joys Of Binge Reading. And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. That’s it for today. Thanks for listening and happy reading.

Amanda Geard has proven herself a master of evocative, triple timeline mysteries, linking generations across the abandoned clues of family history. A faded photograph….  An abandoned house. And a wartime mystery that might have remained buried forever. Hi, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and on the Binge Reading show this week, Amanda talks about her latest book, The Moon Gate, telling a story that reaches from wartime Britain to Tasmania and back to Ireland.  And she shares the timeline story that first captivated, her imagination, and inspired her to swap jobs. from being a geologist in the world’s far off corners, to a fictional author who’s immediately attracted positive reviews. This week’s Giveaway Our Giveaway this week is Fall Romance Freebies for the month of September, including Sadie’s Vow Book #1 in my latest trilogy Home At Last. You’ve got a library full of great romances here on offer, and you can select however many you like and Download For Free. And remember if you enjoy the show. leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. DOWNLOAD FREE ROMANCE Things discussed in this episode Listowel Writer’s Week: https://writersweek.ie/ What Amanda is reading: Louise Fein: People Like Us: https://www.louisefein.com/people-like-us The Echoes of Love Jenny Ashcroft: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/the-echoes-of-love-jenny-ashcroft I Capture The Castle, Dodie Smith: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/31122.I_Capture_the_Castle Where To Find Amanda Online Website: www.amandageard.com Instagram and X: @AmandaGeard Introducing author Amanda Geard Jenny Wheeler: But now, here’s Amanda. Hello there, Amanda, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Amanda Geard: Hi, Jenny. Thanks so much for having me. Jenny Wheeler: Amanda, The Moon Gate, which is your second historical timeline mystery refers to a particularly striking architectural feature in an old house in Ireland. It has both symbolic and real significance to the story. Tell us about The Moon Gate. Amanda Geard: Thanks, Jenny. Yes. Gosh, I love moon gates. They’re these wonderful follies that are often found in Chinese gardens. But the idea was of course pinched and went around the world with the British Empire, and so you see them in a lot of old British gardens. And they’re a circular structure, mostly often made of stone or brick, but timber as well, or willow wicks, but the idea is that they separate one part of the garden from another, but they rise up out of the earth. And, the mentality is that to walk through one is to be reborn. I really wanted to put one of these in what became called The Moon Gate because one of my protagonists, Grace, who’s a young woman who leaves Grosvenor Square in London just before the outbreak of World War Two. She travels to Tasmania, where I’m from originally, and she sheds her skin there. And actually the Moon Gate is in the house there at, at the back of the house there in Tasmania, between the small garden around the house and this wild rainforest. She captures her own wilderness, I think. It was just this lovely lovely symbol I wanted to weave in. Organising a Moon Gate Tour? There’s a thought! Jenny Wheeler: And are there any actual moon gates in Tasmania? Amanda Geard: Oh, I think there are some in some private gardens. And then here in Ireland, I really want to do a moon gate tour. And I’ve been collecting a very short list of moon gates, but some people in the UK who’ve read the book have sent me pictures of moon gates in their nearby big houses, or a lot of people have them in their gardens now as well. They’ve built them from all kinds of things. I love the ones where people have taken rounds of logs and built them up into an archway that’s round and then grown ivy up it. It’s all very romantic. Jenny Wheeler: Have you set up a moon gate tour? Amanda Geard: No, but I think it’d be a great business idea. I’m on it. Jenny Wheeler: The Moon Gate moves through three timelines, as you’ve mentioned, just immediately prior to World War II and your heroine is sent off to Tasmania to avoid the dangers of the bombs, then Tasmania, and then coming back to Ireland and London. All of these places have very special significance for you, don’t they? Tell us about them. Amanda Geard: They do Jenny. And yeah, the book is a real tangled web, of these places and times. So just for readers out there haven’t read it yet, it’s set during the war and the 1970s and the modern timelines in 2005. Most of the 1940s is set in the home front in Tasmania. I was born in and grew up in Tasmania and studied there and my family’s still there and I go back every year and I love Tasmania, but I didn’t know anything about the war there at all because, we learned, really at school, the British side of World War Two, so it was hard work finding out about Tassie during, the war and the feeling there. Yes, so Tasmania and London, I lived in for quite a few years on a houseboat and the houseboat features in the book although I have moved it across a couple of canals and now I live in Ireland down here in the southwest in County Kerry right on the Atlantic. Captivated by Kate Morton in Cameroon… And I wove that place into The Moon Gate. It’s not such a big setting as it was for The Midnight House but it felt like a really lovely connection to have. The place, this, new place that I live and love in both of the novels. Jenny Wheeler: It does fit extremely well. Can you remember the first dual timeline story that captivated you? Both of these books are very deeply embedded in that whole nostalgic feeling of family generational secrets. And I share that love of those kind of stories. Do you remember the first one that captivated you? Amanda Geard: Yes, I think it was probably The Forgotten Garden. I’m sure many of your listeners and readers have read it, by Kate Morton. Because I remember reading that. I actually listened to the audio book way back and I’m a geologist, so I was working in Cameroon out in the jungle. You’d be out all day collecting samples. doing long walks, sweating, coming back, have your bucket wash have your food from the fire, hop into the hammock and then, put the earbuds in and, or they weren’t earbuds then, normal earphones and get swept away, to Australia and Cornwall, where she set it. And I loved it. It really suited my brain, jumping back and around the timelines and trying to find these little links. And I think I’ve read it once since in hard copy. And I loved remembering and I love the little almost Easter eggs. It’s probably not the quite the right word, but the hints all the way through that you pick up the next time you read it. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s fantastic. She’s another Australian writer, I think, isn’t she? Amanda Geard: She is, I think she’s Australia’s biggest export, when it comes to writing, And her writing is, wow, it’s just incredible. So very beautiful writer. Tassie’s part in World War II Jenny Wheeler: As you mentioned the World War II part is set in Tasmania and probably not a lot of people know what actually happened to anyone in Tasmania during the Second World War. Tell us about digging out that history. Amanda Geard: Oh, it was yes, it was tough I went back to Tassie and visited my family and, went to the Launceston library and Hobart library and trying to dig out. I really love reading diaries and letters and personal stories, but there’s not a huge amount and certainly not available online. As I was searching before I got back, but mum knows a Marion Sargent, who’s a historian there in Launceston, and she was brilliant. She was so generous. She sent me memories from her own father’s time in the war and during the war. And they were a real springboard and some of these stories he’d written about the usual story of people changing their age, boys changing their age to join up. And there’s one particular battalion, the 40th who went to Darwin and onto Timor and Daniel, he joins up this battalion. I had. real life experiences to, to hang his experience during the war on, which was incredible. And I love that because you feel like you’re guided and then you’re guiding the reader through those experiences too. Jenny Wheeler: It does give you the feeling of how vulnerable remote communities a long way from the action could feel within the war and also the vulnerability of the young men that went off with no idea at all about what they were going to, feeling drawn by some invisible thread. Did that touch you as you were working on it? Amanda Geard: It did that sense that they were going off on this great adventure, and I touched on it briefly Grace, who’s the protagonist or one of the protagonists in the 1940s, her uncle was in the First World War, and, you can see the way that he reacts to this sense of adventure that young men have then. In 1940, 41, 42 it was very different in Tasmania because less men joined up because there were less places. Digging for gold with Dad to exploration geologist  It was quite disorganized initially, and they went overseas much later. they were reading about it in the newspaper. There wasn’t so much the sense of imminent danger, but actually when you dig a little deeper, you can feel that people were really afraid. For Tasmania, there were always rumors later in the war, after 1942 of sighting Japanese planes off the coast. And lots of sightings of German submarines. And in fact, Bass Strait was mined during the war and shipping stopped for a time. Tasmania felt very isolated and people at home front also really wanted to do their bit Grace, who is inspired by Banjo Patterson, our famous ballad writer, she starts to write ballads about the war, and I wanted to incorporate some of the things that she learned. For example, in Launceston, they were doing bingo to raise money for a Spitfire in the UK. I made up this Spitfire bingo ballad and, so there were so many incredible little snippets. There were blackouts in Launceston during all of the war. And there were a lot of fortifications made as well and bunkers dug. Things I had no idea about before. Jenny Wheeler: Yes.. It seems like you might be attracted to wild places because it is Tasmania, which is remote enough, but you set it on a remote part of the coast in Tasmania. And I gather your father was very familiar with that part of the coast. Tell us about that family connection. Amanda Geard: Yes, my dad loved geology as I was growing up and he’s actually an agricultural scientist. So he worked in the poppy industry in Tasmania, which is a huge industry over there. But weekends where we’re not spent in the fields, we would go off into the hills with picks and shovels and go off panning. We might go to the Northwest looking for sapphires or to the West coast, learning the tin mining history or looking for gold or copper, not commercially, obviously, just to learn the history of the rocks and, all of that prospecting history really underpins a lot of the modern settlement in Tasmania, Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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We used to go camping and did a lot of hiking in Tassie, although I suppose at the time when I was a teenager, I was probably a bit grumpy and wanted to be off to parties rather than off in the bush, but it must have really rubbed off on me because I ended up studying geology and becoming an exploration geologist. I really love the west coast of Tasmania and, that whole southwestern area of the state is World Heritage Area and you can really hike for a long time without seeing anyone down there and it’s just magic. Jenny Wheeler: You live in a similar environment now in Ireland. Tell us about that. Amanda Geard: Yeah, so we’re in the southwest of Ireland and it was a bit of an accident. My husband and I were in Norway, because we were geologists. We were living in all kinds of places. And we came here on holiday and rented a really cheap car. It was off season and we did the Ring of Kerry, which probably quite a few of your listeners might have done was this famous tourist route down here in Kerry. We were driving along and we came over the hill and saw this fantastic old house, quite tumbled down and there was a sign on the gate that said if you really squinted, you could see that it was a faded for sale sign and you could just read the number. I don’t know why, but one of us called it. Anyway, in the end, we viewed the place and we ended up staying and renovating it over many years and many tears. That was the love of Kerry started and the love of old houses really grew by living here, but it is very wild. The sandstone plunges into the Atlantic and you can get lost in the fells behind us. And it’s a beautiful place. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fabulous. This is your second multiple time novel, as we’ve mentioned, and the first, The Midnight House, was a Richard and Judy selection. Now, for people outside of England, there’s quite a lot of our audience that is outside of England, explain what the significance of being a Richard and Judy choice is. Richard and Judy – Big coup for a debut book Amanda Geard: Best way to explain it is when my agent called and told me I had to sit down very suddenly because it’s a big coup in the UK. So Richard and Judy have had their book club running, I think, since the early 2000s and it was part of their morning television program. Later on, I think about 2009, it became a collaboration with W. H. Smith. (a huge UK bookseller)  it’s now exclusively with W. H. Smith and they pick six novels every two or three months. And there are a lot of fans of Richard and Judy. They’ll buy all of them and find new writers and read outside their normal genre. It is really fantastic. There’s a whole special print run done with a Q and A at the back. Andi t’s a real coup, I think it’s probably the biggest book club, it’s the biggest hitting book club in the UK. Jenny Wheeler: Now, that book spent five months at the top of the UK Kindle lists. Tell us about that story. It does have a similar ring to the one we were talking about, The Moon Gate  – similarities and settings and so forth. So tell us about The Midnight House. Amanda Geard: Yes. The Midnight House – if your readers enjoy The Moon Gate, I think they will certainly enjoy The Midnight House. Again, I’ve taken three timelines and woven them together. And there’s a series of mysteries hiding between them. And it centers on Ellie Fitzgerald, who is a disgraced journalist who returns from Dublin to County Kerry down here where I’m living. And she learns about an aristocrat who went missing in 1939 or 40 at the start the war and is presumed drowned, but she discovers a letter that was written by this woman several days later. And so she goes off on a journey to try and find this Charlotte, Lady Charlotte Rathmore. And I have a section of the novel written in the 1950s, which links the present and the past, which is what I love to do, because I think I never like to look at a big incident in isolation. And so I’ve got the three timelines running through and quite a lot of the setting is in Blitz London, which I really enjoyed researching.  I’m not sure if enjoyed, but I found it fascinating researching Blitz London and writing that setting. Amanda’s process requires Excel spread sheet Jenny Wheeler: Great. Look, it sounds very intricate plotting,  the same with The Moon Gate. How do you go about your writing process? Do you have a big timeline on the wall or how do you do it? Do you let it just fall into your lap as you go along? Tell us about the process. Amanda Geard: Oh, I wish it could just fall into my lap. That would be amazing. I love hearing interviews from writers who are pantsers who write by the seat of their pants. I’m very envious. These ones anyway, these three, with three timelines, there’s a lot of planning and plotting and I use Excel. Initially I come up with some ideas and I just stick some non fancy A4 paper together and scrawl ideas. And I generally take those out, do dot points in different colors for the timelines and then put them into Excel and on it goes until I’ve planned it. There’s normally quite shortish chapters, but many of them, so there might be 80 –  50 to 80. I’ll basically plan out the chapters in Excel and things can go awry along the way, mostly confidence wise. I think many writers, obviously, we all struggle with that. the fear of the blank page.  But on the whole, I stick broadly to the outline, I say that doesn’t always happen, but I try to stick broadly to the outline. And that’s how it pulls together, but there’s always a lot of editing. My favorite bit is, you’ve done the first draft and then weaving in some of the items and some of the letters that, that people find in the present that link to the past where you feel like you’re tightening the plot. And I love that feeling the weaving gets more and more intricate and you’re really making something really beautiful then. Jenny Wheeler: But before you actually start writing, you do have a pretty definite outline there? Amanda Geard: I do for example, from the third book I’m writing now, I have a 10, 000 or 13, 000 word outline. They’re quite big books. If it were an 80, 000 word book, that would be pretty significant outline. These books are 100 to 110 or 20, 000. but I like to have a really big outline. I send the outline to my editor and she likes to see it in chronological order, so if it were The Moon Gate, she would see the 1940s through the seventies and then through the modern day. But I don’t really think like that. I think of it as you read it. From ‘blow in’ to ‘adopted daughter’ I have to pull it apart, make it chronological, and then I see a load of problems, of course, but I plan it, bouncing back and forth. As you read it I want every event to, to play forward into the other two timelines as well. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve lived all over the world, obviously in some very remote and exotic places. And you’ve now, at least for this time, settled in Ireland and you identify with your Irish situation. You said in a newspaper interview recently, being Irish is a feeling and you seem to have picked up on that feeling. Tell us about that observation. Amanda Geard: They say here that unless your grandparents are buried in the local graveyard, you’re a blow in. I’ll always be a blow in and it’s the same in all small communities, the world over and I refer to that term quite a bit in The Midnight House because there’s a few blow ins, appear in that. But aside from that, always being a blow in the community is really welcoming and I always say to people that I love when if I’m having a rough day at work or rough day writing or whatever, if I just give up, hop on the bike –  well it’s normally raining, so get into the car and drive down to the local shops, maybe 5 kilometers and just go in and buy a packet of biscuits. Somebody in there will make you laugh. then lift you up. They make you laugh or they’ll have some comment that you’ll remember and you’ll want to write down because it’s so Irish and Kerry and lovely. It’s that feeling that really, makes you feel at home here. I think we’ve been really welcomed. We have a godson here. And I remember when we first moved here, we were sitting in the big old tumble down house that we were trying to renovate, Sleeping in a tent in a windowless house We’d pulled out the windows, they were all rotten and we were having windows delivered and there were no windows. We were sleeping in a tent in the house, in the rain and a tractor came along the road that we’d seen go up and down the road because they all have very small fields here that they go back and forth, between the animals. But this time, he turned up the driveway and we raced down the steps. And he upped the bucket of the tractor and dropped a load of firewood and then drove off. It was just a welcome present and we didn’t even know who he was. And later we became great friends and actually we became the god godparents for their son. So yes, it was just moments like that where you just feel really welcome and it’s a really special community. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Look, turning away from talking about the individual books, a little wider look at your career. How did you transition from being a geologist to being a best selling writer? Amanda Geard: I got two things there. I’m still a geologist and also I’m not too best selling, but one day we hope. I always say book six. I was at the pub, where all great things happen and I had a wine or two and I saw it. This was in Ireland, of course. And I saw a flyer for writer’s week in Listowel, which is a big writing festival here in Ireland, but I hadn’t heard of it and it was on the next day. We have to drive to go to the supermarket anyway, so I thought, look, I’ll hop in the car and go up there and see what this is all about. I went up with my shopping bags and went to the library to a book launch and I was just fascinated. I sat in this book launch. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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fascinated with the audience and all the people who had questions about their own writing experience, and they all looked really normal, like me. And I thought, I’m going to have a go at this. I’m going to try this. I should say that I have always loved writing, but I never thought about writing a commercial fiction novel. I went home and stuck those four bits of A4 paper I mentioned to you before together and just started planning a novel with several timelines, three, because that’s what I liked to read and with an old house and set in a place I lived and that’s where it all began. that one trip. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. I’m sure you’ve got a very long way to go with where you’re from now, but even so it’s probably not too early to talk about quotes, “the secret of your success,: because not everyone lands on Richard and Judy’s list with their first book. Tell us, for people who might be in that position that you were in a few years ago, thinking about writing, what advice would you give them? What would you say you have done that’s managed you to cut through? Amanda Geard: The first bit of advice is I’m giving now to your listeners and also to myself because I’m a bit stuck on book three, is to keep writing forward on your manuscript. Just keep going. That’s what I’m going to do tomorrow morning when I get up, even though I’m stuck, I’m going to keep going forward because I’m worried about what’s behind me on the manuscript, but if you don’t get to type the end on the first draft, it’s very difficult to, to do anything then with that manuscript. At that end of things, I would say that I’m telling myself that would be the main thing. In terms of the Richard and Judy pick, luck is a big thing, that was very fortunate. They get a lot of books submitted and I actually didn’t know my publisher had submitted it. I didn’t know until the end round and they go through many rounds. So that was extremely lucky. But I would say also I would encourage people, like if I can write a book, you can definitely write a book. Joining a community of writers And also I would try and get to know, I don’t actually know more than a handful of writers in person, but I went on Twitter and created an account and Instagram and followed writers and read their books and posted about them and cheered other people. And that really helped to create a lovely community or I stepped into a lovely community and a network, and I’d really encourage anyone at any stage. You don’t need to be published or have written your manuscript to be involved in that community you can just. Want to write and be trying to write. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. Was The Midnight House the first manuscript you finished? Amanda Geard: It was yes, I’d written a couple of short stories before then, and a few articles about geology, which was not so relevant, but it all counts. There was quite a bit of editing, but I was really just writing it to have a go. And I found that Book Two The Moon Gate was really tough, actually really tough because suddenly I felt that I had something I had to deliver. That took a lot longer and I had many false starts It was a bit of a mission to be honest, but The Midnight House was the first manuscript I wrote. I would, maybe that’s also advise for new writers perhaps that first one really feel like you’re just having a go and you don’t have to show it to anyone. You just try and get to The End, those two magic words. Jenny Wheeler: Quite a few writers do have that manuscript in their drawer that’s never seen the light of day. And I actually admire that they just, they put that aside and they treated it as a practice run and kept on going. That’s also sometimes necessary to do, isn’t it? Amanda Geard: It is. And to be honest, The Moon Gate – I actually wrote it two timelines to start with. I had planned three. This is how things went awry. And it’s quite a complex book. It was tough and I decided actually it would work well with two and I sent it off and, people liked it. What Amanda is reading now… I met agents and editors, but they said it missed that complexity of The Midnight House. I actually went and wrote the modern timeline over the top, but I already knew what would happen. I nearly put it away. I thought I can’t, I don’t know if I can face this. It was nearly the book that went in the drawer. There is that side of things as well that I imagine anyone out there with a book in their drawer. You just never know what you might do with it in the future. Jenny Wheeler: Turning to Amanda as reader, you say you’ve always been a fairly passionate reader. Tell us about what you’re liking to read now and if you’ve got any current recommendations for people. Amanda Geard: I do, I’ve just finished People Like Us by Louise Fein. F E I N is her name, and I think this came out in 2019, and I’ve had it on my shelf for ages. And it is amazing. I think it’s one of the most powerful books I’ve ever read. It’s set in just pre-war and moving into the war in Germany and told from the point of view of an SS officer’s daughter who falls in love with a German boy. It’s done so magnificently; her arc and what she’s been, taught and how she grows and Louise Fein has Jewish family history, which she wove into it. Jenny Ashcroft and Dodie Smith… And I thought it was magnificent. I’d recommend that. And just before that, I love Jenny Ashcroft. She’s one of my favorites. She wrote The Echoes of Love and set in Crete during war. You can see a bit of a pattern here. And it’s very clever. She does wonderful dialogue and her characters are always really real. I feel them jumping from the page. So she’s great. And then the other one I just read just before that  – I reread I Capture The Castle, which is possibly my favorite book by Dodie Smith, which I always think is funny because of course she also wrote 101 Dalmatians, which I think is brilliant. And it’s such, it’s a really lovely unique single narration, written in diary form, it’s very good anyway, it’s very good. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. Thanks so much. They all sound wonderful. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if you had your opportunities for creative career over again, is there anything you would change and what would it be? Amanda Geard: It’s hasn’t been long so far. But I would say that when I wrote and got the contract for the first book, I thought, Oh, I should have been, I always loved writing, as I said, just for myself. Maybe I should have done this started this before earlier and but actually having been a geologist and lived in various places and my third book touch wood we get there. It’s set in northern Norway where I have spent a lot of time, because I was a geologist, I was able to go there and do these things. I found that it’s all fed into the writing. I think whatever you’re doing as your career, and you may also love it, but you can do writing alongside it as well. And at any age, and in fact, the older you are, I am, I would say, probably the more experience you have to weave in into the words. I don’t actually regret not starting earlier, if that makes sense. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. That’s great. You’ve mentioned this third book that’s, given you some problems at the moment. Tell us about your next 12 months and what you’re hoping to see off of your desk by perhaps the end of the 12 months. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Getting that third book finished Amanda Geard: I’d certainly like to have this third book well away by then. But it’s going to be a frantic few months ahead of me, I think. And I would like to get that first draft off and I of course have ideas for a fourth and a fifth, Ideas I find or broad ideas are easy enough to. They come all the time. I’ve got a notice board just over here and it’s covered in post it notes and each one’s a bit of an idea. And I did, this is an aside, sorry. I did, someone told me something once, which I thought was a great idea to have an Excel document or a board where every day, no matter what you put one idea on it, and then eventually you will probably merge lots of those in, into a book. And I thought that was quite nice and that’s something I must do. But  the best case scenario would be this third book to write on and get that first draft done and dusted and hopefully, Jenny Wheeler: Too early to have a title for that one? Amanda Geard: It is, I’ve got a few ideas but and any way, I always suggest titles, but they’re normally changed, so The Moon Gate. I called it book two the whole way, because I didn’t even want to give it a title. But The Midnight House was called Finding Charlotte. And then for a while it was called The Secrets of Blackwater Hall and then The Midnight House. Yeah. I am setting this third book in Northern Norway. I used to spend a lot of time on remote Islands up there. I’m fascinated by Occupied Norway out on the islands. I’m setting it out there and I love that kind of place. You live by nature out there. I’m trying to capture that. And then also we’ve got modern day Kerry County Kerry and Ireland, of course. I’m going to blend those two as best I can. That’s the plan anyway, Jenny Wheeler: The very important question, do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Amanda Geard: Oh, I love that so much. I love that. I sometimes get messages through my website, Amanda geard.com and I love that cause it feels very personal. but I’m also on Twitter @Amandageard and on Instagram. I think it’s also @AmandaGeard and I also have a page on Facebook, but I’m more active on Twitter and Instagram. I try and get back to everyone unless I missed it. I do get back and I love hearing particularly when something. Has struck a chord or has reminded someone of something in their life or, it’s really, is really special. I love to also write to authors when I read a book, I love to let them know what resonated because I know how special that is to hear that. Jenny Wheeler: Look, that’s fabulous. It’s been marvellous talking. You’ve had a fantastic life already and I’m sure there’s lots of wonderful things to come. Thank you so much for being with us. Amanda Geard: Oh, thanks so much, Jenny. That was great fun. If you enjoyed Amanda you might also enjoy Jenny Ashcroft on Binge Reading Jenny Ashcroft’s historical fiction reflects her many years living and working abroad. She does captivating romances that have been compared to the big names of popular fiction, people like Lucinda Riley and Kate Furnivall. Stories of family secrets and love doomed by misunderstandings of war set in Bombay, Singapore, Australia, and Egypt. LISTEN TO JENNY ON BINGE READING Next Week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading, Loretta Chase. One of the doyens of Regency romance. She talks about getting over writer’s block when you’ve already published 28 books. And how winning an American romance writers award for her latest romance, Ten Things I Hate About The Duke just puts the icing on the cake of an already fantastic career. That’s next week on The Joys of Binge Reading. And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

 M.J. Porter has developed an enthusiastic readership for her ninth century Saxon Chronicles set in the depths of a divided Britain. She writes action-packed and completely addictive Dark Ages historicals that have readers howling for more. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And today on Binge Reading, M.J. talks about the books that critics describe as “Game of Thrones meets The Last Kingdom.” Our Giveaway this week is called Is Your Library Fully Booked? It features a great range of stories from many different authors, all free to download, including Sadie’s Vow Book #1 in my Home At Last series. https://books.bookfunnel.com/fullybooked/1qbif7i7yc DOWNLOAD SADIE’S VOW for free And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for people to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Things mentioned in this episode First Viking Age: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Viking-people Lindisfarne: https://www.lindisfarne.org.uk/ King Alfred: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Alfred-king-of-Wessex Dark Age Britain: https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/Anglo-Saxon-Kingdoms-Dark-Ages/ Bede: https://www.britannica.com/biography/Saint-Bede-the-Venerable Ceolwulf: Last King of Mercia: https://www.britannica.com/place/Wessex-historical-kingdom The Battle of Brunanburh: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Brunanburh King Athelstan: https://www.athelstanmuseum.org.uk/malmesbury-history/people/king-athelstan/ Bernard Cornwell: https://www.bernardcornwell.net/ Uhtred series:   https://www.bernardcornwell.net/series/the-last-kingdom-series/ Queen Æthelflæd, Lady of the Mercians https://www.britannica.com/biography/Aethelflaed The Last Kingdom BBC series: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08jnzwp Ealdorman: https://www.encyclopedia.com/history/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/ealdorman Ealdorman Athelwine: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86thelwine,_Ealdorman_of_East_Anglia Queen Elfride:  https://www.history.org.uk/historian/resource/8630/elfrida-the-first-crowned-queen-of-england Ethelred II:  https://www.britannica.com/biography/Ethelred-the-Unready M J Porter: Custard Corpses, https://mjporterauthor.blog/the-custard-corpses-a-delicious-1940s-mystery-is-on-tour-with-the-coffee-pot-book-club/ Michelles Salter: https://www.michellesalter.com/ Sarah Hawkswood: https://www.amazon.com/stores/Sarah-Hawkswood/author/B00MLCK41U Theodore Brun: https://www.theodorebrun.com/ Simon Turney:  https://simonturney.com/ Jane Adams: Murder On The Farm, https://www.amazon.com/MURDER-gripping-mystery-twists-Mystery-ebook/dp/B0BL86FQ9Q#: Where to find MJ Porter online Website: www.mjporterauthor.com Twitter or X: @coloursofunison Introducing historical fiction author M.J. Porter Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s MJ. Hello there MJ and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. M.J. Porter: Hello, thank you so much for inviting me on today. I’m really looking forward to our chat. Jenny Wheeler: MJ you’ve developed a terrific following of historical fiction readers fascinated by the stories of ancient Britain, and we’re talking basically ninth and tenth centuries, mainly Saxon Britain. Tell us first off, what is the appeal of this period for people who haven’t perhaps delved into it before? M.J. Porter: The appeal of the period for me is that it’s quite exciting. We’re at the very beginning of what would become known as the First Viking Age. We’ve had our attack on Lindisfarne and then the records go a little bit quiet, we don’t hear a lot more, and then all of a sudden in about the 830s we start to get a little bit of a rumble, and therefore, it’s quite exciting. We haven’t had the great heathen army yet of the 860s. We’ve got this king in Wessex who’s going to be King Alfred’s grandfather, and everybody knows about King Alfred. So, it’s about the buildup to it, what’s going on before, and my particular focus is always almost always Mercia and Mercia at that time. They’re on the decline, there’s a lot going on, there’s a lot of politics. We’ve got the Vikings, we’ve got the politics, we’ve always got problems with the Welsh on the borders. There’s a lot going on and I think there’s a lot there that hasn’t been explored before. So that’s what I’m doing. This is not the ‘Dark Age’ of Britain Jenny Wheeler: Lovely. Now, I think I’m right. This is very much an amateur interpretation. I did do history at university, but not this period. But in popular historical understanding, it’s known as the Dark Ages in a way, isn’t it? I think that’s right. Seen as the interregnum between The Romans and the Normans in a very broad spectrum, but I rather suspect that might be an outdated view. Tell me if I’m wrong in that. How do you view this period? M.J. Porter: I’m going to be honest and I’m going to say I don’t necessarily view this as the Dark Ages. I know a lot of people do. And I know even historians latch on to the idea of it being the Dark Ages, especially in popular, historical nonfiction books. But really, the Dark Age period is what happens after the end of Roman Britain, and before the Saxons come in and we get a flowering of historical writing again, thanks to the works of Bede. I don’t call it the Dark Ages, but I know a lot of people do. I think once we get past about, ooh, about… the 700s, we’re into a period where we can’t call it the Dark Ages anymore, so I tend not to, but I know a lot of people do, so I used to get very cross about it, and now I try not to get quite so cross about it. Jenny Wheeler: That we’re particularly talking about today is Book #5 in your Earls of Mercia Chronicles, The Protector Of Mercia. It’s just recently out for those who don’t really understand much about. The political situation in Britain at this point, I think it was more or less enclaves of warlords, all facing Viking attack in various ways, but not managing to unite against the Vikings at this stage. M.J. Porter: Tell us, first of all, what was actually the Kingdom of Mercia and was it the strongest kingdom at this time or just one of many? So the Kingdom of Mercia at this time, When you look at Saxon England, there tends to be a pattern. What we have is we have what’s called the Golden Age of Northumberland, and that is really the 7th century. Then we have what they classify as the Supremacy of Mercia, which is the 8th century. And then as we hit the 9th century, we’re coming into the flowering of Wessex, and then Wessex eventually becomes England. The heart of Mercia is the Midlands Mercia at this time, it’s essentially the Midlands of England. So, if you’ve heard the names of Nottingham, Leicester, Birmingham, Lichfield, Tamworth, Repton, they’re smaller places now, but if you’re going back in time and you’re talking about the Kingdom of Mercia, they’re really important. So that was Mercia, so we’ve got the Welsh to the west, and we’ve got the East Angles, which was another kingdom to the east, and then above it we’ve got Northumberland, and then you’ve got the River Thames, which is not always the boundary, but it’s often the boundary with Wessex, which is to the south. There were points when Mercia was much bigger than the Midlands, but to as a a rule of thumb, if you want to know where Mercia was, have a look at Birmingham on your map and you’ll see the area around there. The Mercian name still persists. We’ve got things like the West Mercian police and every so often it will crop up in things as well. So the name’s still there. You just have to search for it a little bit. Jenny Wheeler: And I know in the Protector of Mercia, Londinium comes into it. Who actually was controlling Londinium at this time? M.J. Porter: So Londinium’s a really interesting one. Essentially it should have been Mercia at this time because it was on the northern border of the Thames. Wessex always seems to have too much interest in what’s going on in Londinium, or Londonia, or there’s a number of names for it. At this time it should have been Mercian, it was mostly Mercian, but then every so often we’ve got a Wessex king that likes to try their luck. and come into London. There’s loads and loads of research about London at the time. Whether it was as important as we perhaps think it was, it’s difficult to actually get your head around. Isel – the hero of the Earls of Mercia series What they do know is that we had. what they called Lundenwick, and that was a market settlement, not in the Roman ruins, it’s to the side of it because apparently the Roman ruins, the walls would have still been standing, so they wouldn’t have had access to the riverfront of the Thames, so they couldn’t have traded, and it was a wick, which means market, so that’s what they were doing. It was just a big trading center and I did find out some quite interesting information about the Thames and there’s a lot of discussion, I don’t understand all of it, about how easy it would have been to get boats up and down the River Thames at this time because I think we just assumed that, oh yes, the Vikings would just sail up there but maybe not all the time, apparently it’s very seasonal. It was easier to do when it was winter than when it was summer, so there’s assumptions that we make and they’re not always right. Jenny Wheeler: Now the main character in the Earl of Mercia books is Icel. And he’s a very important character. We won’t tell too much about his background because it’ll spoil the process of the stories, but does he relate to any real historical character? M.J. Porter: To be honest, he doesn’t. Icel is actually a much-loved character from a series that I’ve written that takes place about 40 years later. And when my publisher approached me and said, we really love this. We want you to do something with it. I was a bit like, Ooh, I don’t know what to do. Now I’ve written into this character of Icel, this really great, it was really great when I needed to think of a new series, little thing that he does where they have these big battles and they’re all going yeah we’ve won and he just comes over and he’s yeah if you think that’s good you should have seen what I did when I was younger. I’ve written his backstory based on what he then tells these fellows when he’s an older man. I have since discovered that the name that I chose for him is very good because there is an Icel who’s in the genealogy for the Mercian kings. The Last Kings series -Mercia in the ninth century He’s there right at the top, so he’s got a good name and I made lots of good decisions when I created him, which I’m very grateful for. Jenny Wheeler: Now that series that you’ve just mentioned, what was that series? M.J. Porter: I call it the Last King series, but that’s actually what the first book is called. So it’s really called The Mercian Ninth Century. It’s not a particularly exciting title, but it was supposed to be about Mercia’s last king, and it was supposed to be one book, and it became this series. It got away with me, as my writing tends to do, so I refer to it as both, but yes, it’s, so it’s about Ceolwulf, which is not the right way to say it, I think you should call him Chullwulf, but I’ve got used to calling him Ceolwulf, and he was Mercia’s last king, so that was where the title came from. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve also got a second instalment in another series coming out this year, I noticed, and it’s set a hundred years further on, around about 934, and that one’s called The Kings of War, and in book two, England is now united as one kingdom, but they’re still facing off to Scotland in the north, and to the Dublin Norse people in Ireland. Tell us about that one. M.J. Porter: Okay, this one’s about the Battle of Brunanburh, which took place in 937. So, yes, England is united. We’ve got our young King Athelstan, who is the grandson of King Alfred. His father was king after Alfred. And then he becomes king after his father and essentially the Viking Norse, the Dublin Norse, they’ve been in retreat. They’ve not been causing problems for a long time. the period is often categorized as a time of peace, but it actually isn’t. The idea behind the book was to look at not just England, but Britain as a whole. We’ve got the Welsh kingdoms, we’ve got the Scots kingdom, we’ve got the Irish as well, and what’s going on, what leads to this massive battle in 937 called Brunanburh, which a lot of people have never heard of or they hadn’t heard about it until Bernard Cornwell wrote his Uhtred books, and he took him to Brunanburh. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} History scant on The Battle of Brunanburh It’s becoming more and more well known, the idea of the book is we get the build up, then we get the battle, and then unfortunately, and I don’t think I’m going to be doing any spoilers here because people should know, Athelstan, almost at the height of his powers, he dies. And then everything seems to reset again. This series is what happens to Athelstan and then what happens to his successor afterwards. It’s fascinating. It’s hard to do because we don’t have any historical records that tell us about what happened in Britain at the time. We have ones for Scotland and we have ones for Ireland. We have ones for the Welsh and obviously we have the Anglo Saxon Chronicle, but nobody’s putting all the bits together and saying this happened because of that. It’s fascinating to play with it, and see what brought about this huge battle. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. So how does that part relate to the battle between Mercia and Wessex? Was Athelstan a successor of any of those kingdoms? M.J. Porter: Well, Athelstan’s fascinating. He’s really interesting. You’re going to have to excuse me here. It might be a little bit of a long explanation. Athelstan, we are told was raised in Mercia by his aunt, Lady Athelflaed of Mercia, who’s very famous because his father remarried and for whatever reason, they didn’t want him around at that time. So he goes to Mercia, he’s raised there. When the Lady Athelflaed dies, his father comes in and. essentially takes Mercia. And then his father dies, but Athelstan is very well known in Mercia. So when his father dies, it’s said that the Mercians said, actually, we want Athelstan as our king. ‘Action-packed and completely addictive’ And so that was good. And then in Wessex, one of his younger brothers was supposed to become king. But unfortunately he died. So then Athelstan came back from Mercia and claimed Wessex as well. So that’s how England was made. So the story is Mercia, then Wessex, and then he started gathering all together the five boroughs as well. Jenny Wheeler: Now you’re writing, it’s described as “action packed and completely addictive.” And one reviewer described it as being “Game of Thrones meets The Last Kingdom.” Now, for those who may not be familiar with The Last Kingdom, that was a very successful British TV series. I gather it ran from 2015 to 2022, for five seasons. So it obviously got a following, and based on Bernard Cornwell’s Saxon series, as you already mentioned his name. So it’s pretty amazing to be categorized in that kind of company. Do you feel that you live up to it? M.J. Porter: Oh no, I think that’s really hard. I don’t know. I think because it’s a similar period and it’s a similar outlook on it. We’re looking at the wars and we’re looking at the fighting. I can understand why people do that. It’s great to be categorized there. I read all the Game of Thrones books. Quite early on in my writing career and what appealed to me about them is he tells a story from different viewpoints all the way through and that’s something that I like doing as well so when I read his books I went oh someone else is doing it that’s all right I can get away with it so that was really good. Game of Thrones meets The Last Kingdom Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting with Game Off Thrones though, because it’s as much fantasy as it is history, isn’t it? I didn’t get into the books and I also didn’t watch the TV series because when I tried to start with it, I found it too violent. I couldn’t watch it. But when I tried to look it up, I see that opinion varies as to whether it’s the second century or early medieval which is a huge difference in timeframe so obviously, he didn’t stick to one period. Do you find that offensive as an academic historian? M.J. Porter: I don’t know because I think that sometimes you look at the past and actually there’s a lot of great stories but they don’t join up together and joining them up together is difficult. If you want to pick and choose and put a bit of the War of the Roses with a little bit of the end of the Roman Empire, then why not? Because you’re writing fantasy so you can get away with it and it’s appealing. I really enjoyed it, but I would like to say I’ve started reading those books because I thought there were four of them. and I went that’s good I can read a nice fantasy series of four books and of course it’s not four books but it’s longer. Jenny Wheeler: And I don’t think he’s ever got round to the actual final one, has he? M.J. Porter: He’s been writing it apparently I think for at least 13 years or something so when Book Five came out I’ve read half of it and I’m not reading the other half until Book Six comes out, because otherwise I’ll forget who all the characters are. Jenny Wheeler: How important is it for you to follow historical fact as we know it? And do we know much about this period? M.J. Porter: That is the joy of it. So no, we don’t know much about it. There are more gaps than there are certain facts. It’s quite a complex series to understand. We’re told a certain narrative and that narrative has stuck. And then there’s a lot of academic historians who are unpicking the narrative and saying, this isn’t right. M J Porter – telling the untold story There’s other things that were going on. So I think. We don’t know much. I try and stick to historical fact where I know it. But I also want to tell the story, almost, of the underdogs. I want to tell the bit that people don’t know. As I was saying at the beginning, we know about the Golden Age in Northumberland. We know about Mercia, when it was great. We know about Wessex. But what about all the other people? What about all the other kingdoms at those same periods? So that’s what I’m trying to do. So I don’t necessarily stick. To what some people might say is historical fact, but I would argue that it’s probably not fact to get around it. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. What set you to writing fiction in the beginning? I did pick up somewhere that you were studying history at university and you became captivated by a particular person, a real life person. Tell us about that. M.J. Porter: I was studying for my master’s degree, and it’s not called a History Master’s, but I call it History Master. I was doing a slightly to the side of it. And I used to go and love walking down the aisle at the local university and picking up all the books and I read everything. And then, yes, I discovered this character who’s called Ealdormaine Athel Wine. And he was Ealdormaine in Mercia at the end of the 10th century. And what appealed to me more than anything is he is the beginning of a dynasty that survived until the Norman conquest, and indeed slightly afterwards, but in captivity, unfortunately. And when you look at the narrative again, this is me playing with the narrative. When we look at it, we’re told about the Godwine family and Earl Godwine, and his son ends up being king and his daughter ends up being queen. But I was thinking, what about this other side? What about what they were doing. How did he survive? Because he was there through a lot of kings. His family survived through the kingship of Ethelred the Second, through the Danish Kings on back to when we get Edward the Confessor back. So how did he do it? And that was what appealed to me. He’s a real person. We don’t know a lot about him, and obviously he’s Mercian and I’m a Mercian, so I wanted to write about him and bring him back to the fore. Queen Elfrida – England’s first Queen So that was how that started. I never intended to write about him, but I did. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve also written about the first queen of England, who probably nobody much has heard of, unless they’ve read your books, Elfrida. Now, you wrote a trilogy about her, and she’s described as the first queen of England, not only the first queen, but after Anne Boleyn, the only queen, perhaps, who fell for a married king. Tell us about her. M.J. Porter: Lady Elfrida led a fascinating life. She ends up marrying King Edgar, who, if I get this right, would have been Athelstan’s nephew. He’d already been married. In fact, he has three marriages very quickly. And it’s quite difficult to fit all the children in with the marriages that he has. But the story is he was married and he fell in love with this beautiful woman. And he broke off one marriage and then they got married and then this is the marriage that sticks. She’s one known for the fact that she married an already married king. She won him. It was a love match. It’s the way it’s always portrayed. And I thought why not? This is really interesting. She’s got a very difficult reputation after she dies because apparently, she may or may not have been, I don’t think she was, involved in the murder of her stepson who should have been king after her husband’s death so that her son could then become king. There’s a lot going on at the time and I think reputation is very… difficult to unpick at this period because it’s all written by religious men. They’re not going to think much of people being in love and people murdering everybody. I wanted to tell her story the way that I imagined it might have been told. ‘Get thee to a nunnery’ That’s what I did with Elfrida. It was a difficult trilogy because the first book is very much romance, but then they’re together and they’re in love and then all these politics take over. Then it became very political. There’s not much. war in it, but there is a lot of backstabbing. Jenny Wheeler: And did they actually get a divorce? I guess in those days, they were technically Christian, were they, M.J. Porter: They were Christian. What they used to do, essentially, was if they didn’t want to be married anymore, they would send their discarded wife off to a nunnery, and then she could live in the nunnery. And our idea of what sort of life she might have had is perhaps swayed by what we think of as life in a nunnery and actually it may have been quite glamorous and very rich and very wealthy. There were royal nunneries that these women went to. They wrote in a narrative afterwards, saying that she was very religious anyway and didn’t really want to get married and didn’t want to have any children. She was happy to go and be an abbess of the nunnery and they have a daughter together and she becomes a saint as well, after her death. She tragically dies quite young. They didn’t necessarily get divorced but there’s a charter that shows that he gave very wealthy gifts to her. Essentially he bought her off and went “please go over there and behave.” Jenny Wheeler: And they were almost a little bit of accepting of polygamy for that level of aristocracy? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Porter: I don’t know, but it’s interesting because he’s not the only one to have been married three times. There’s another king, his grandfather, Edward the Elder, he was married three times, Athelstan’s dad. That also causes problems. The writers of the period and the monks, they were, depending on whether they liked the king or didn’t like the king, they worked very hard to gather a narrative that explained what had happened. There’s a lot of academic discussion at the moment about concubinage and marriage and where the difference was and what it was, and essentially it seems to have been the church agreed with one and didn’t agree with the other. And then it becomes more political and only if you’re born to a marriage between a King and Queen, can you become king in your time? So it was all about, I think, just funneling it, making it more difficult to become king. Jenny Wheeler: You chose a gender neutral name for your books, MJ Porter. And I did see a review quite recently that assumed you were a male author, “he did this very brilliantly” comment. Obviously, you chose that as a deliberate decision. Why did you do that? M.J. Porter: I became M.J. Porter – the things that I wrote first were fantasy. So I was writing historical fantasy. And I just thought it was a bit better to go with an M.J. than with my name. So that’s what I did. And I stuck with it. And again, and I don’t plan anything, but it became a good decision when I then started writing very action adventure historical fiction. MJ likes the ‘Mr Porter’ reviews So it’s done me well. I don’t object to being called Mr. Porter. It does make me chuckle a little bit, but equally I’m almost glad that people don’t make the connection. Sometimes I think that the topics that I cover will send out a light saying yes, this is definitely a woman. This isn’t a man. I quite liked the Mr. Porter ones. Jenny Wheeler: It’s funny because you’re published by Boldwood Books, aren’t you? Is that, am I right in that? Yeah. And the last person that I’ve spoken to for this show was also a Boldwood Books author, T. A. Williams. And he writes romance and he made the same decision for exactly the opposite reasons, because he felt women might be less likely to accept romance from a male author. It’s interesting, isn’t it? I think it was quite a funny coincidence that you’re following on one after the other. M.J. Porter: Yeah, it is quite interesting that you can make that assumption just looking at the name of the author about what the content of the book’s going to be. So yes, I like T. A. Williams books because he writes some crime as well. I’ve been reading his cosy crime. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, they’re great, actually. Look, turning away from the specific books to your wider career. Did you have any period as an academic historian or are you still working as an academic historian? M.J. Porter: No, I’ve never been an academic historian. I did my degree, then I did my master’s, and one day I would very like to do my PhD, but I’ve got to fit that in amongst all the other things that I’m trying to do. One of my favorite authors is Terry Pratchett. And when you read the beginning of his books, he lists all the jobs he did before he became an author and none of them are anything to do with writing. Writing the books she wanted to read And I’m a bit like that. I’ve had a lot of what’s the word I’m trying to say? Admin jobs and things like that. Nothing really, I’ve always been a reader. Since I was about 10 years old, my uncle gave me some books for my birthday, and I devoured them, and I’ve devoured lots of books ever since then. I read a lot, and the reason that I first wanted to write is because I struggled to find the books I wanted to read. I just thought, oh I can write something better. I should just get on with it and didn’t realize quite how hard it was going to be. so nothing in my in my job roles has prepared me for this other than I love history and I love reading. So that’s why I started doing it. Jenny Wheeler: And you have done some 20th century mysteries as well. What was the very first book that you got published? M.J. Porter: My very first book is what’s it called? This is the problem. It’s called The Earl of Mercia Father, but it’s an indie book. It’s not with a publisher. It’s one that I did myself and it’s been redone three times because I have to keep changing bits because I write other bits and they don’t fit in with it anymore. My 20th century mysteries they’re indie published. They’re ones I’ve done. And they were lockdown projects and I think a lot of people during lockdown went, Oh, I’m going to, I’m going to just try something a little bit different. So it all started. It’s a very bizarre story. It all started. My dad sent me some old magazines, which were called The Picture Post and they were published in the 1940s and the 1950s. One of the things in them were all the beautiful adverts and they were lovely. One of them was for Bird’s Custard. All of these adverts showed a small child doing something like playing a sporting game or for the boys they’re always playing sports and for the girls they’re always helping mum in the kitchen. The Custard Corpses – a lock down cosy And I kept looking at them and kept looking at them and then I devised this narrative for a story so that’s what I did. I thought I’m gonna write a mystery around these books. I wanted it to be lovely and cozy and I’ve got to be honest, it’s not that cozy because the resolution to the mystery is actually quite horrible. But that was how it started. So I did the Custard Corpses and then I did the Automobile Assassination which is based around we’ve got a car recovery play organization called The Automobile Association. That’s it. I was getting all my words confused. They’re like the RAC and the AA. And I just thought they used to have these they’re like telephone boxes. They used to call them sentry boxes and if your car broke down then you could ring somebody and they would come out on their little motorbikes and they would fix you by the side of the road if they could. So that’s where that one stemmed from as well. So yes, very bizarre. I’ve never thought I would write a book based on an advert and on the AA. Jenny Wheeler: No, what was, sorry, what was the name of the custard? I didn’t quite get the word, something custard. What was it? Was it a? M.J. Porter: Oh, it’s called the Custard Corpses. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, the Custard Corpses. Oh gosh. Yeah. Yeah. M.J. Porter: Doesn’t sound very cozy, does it? Jenny Wheeler: Not two things you usually associate with one another. Look, turning to M.J. as reader, we like to always ask our guests about their taste in reading and if they’ve got things they’d like to recommend to our listeners. What MJ is reading now M.J. Porter: Okay, so I don’t tend to read in my genre all the time because it’s quite difficult to read and write the same thing. As I’ve said, I love a good cozy mystery. I like them if they’re historical. I also like any historical mystery. There’s a couple that I’ve been reading of late. I’m going to shout out to another fellow Boldwood author who’s called Michelle Salter and her series is set just after the First World War and a lot of it is around women’s rights and suffragettes and suffrage and things like that. I love that series. There’s another series that I like written by Sarah Hawkswood, and it’s actually set way back in time in the 12th century. It tends to take place on the borderland with Wales and then she’s got a lovely way that the characters speak. She’s made them sound historical, and the first one that I read, I thought, oh, not sure about this, but you get into it, and it’s, they’re really lovely stories, so I like that. I also like quite a lot of contemporary Cosy stuff. I’ll be reading that. I’ve just read something called Murder on the Farm, which is all about lambing season that I really enjoyed. And then I step back into my genre sometimes, and I’ve got a couple of favorites. I love Simon Turney. He’s quite often more Roman than Saxon. He does do a bit of Vikings. I like him and he’s got a new one coming out on his in his Damned Emperor series, which I’m very excited to read. I like him. And then I’ve got the new Theo Brun book to read as well. So I’m looking forward to that. So that’s my genre. So I read those when I tend not to be writing. And then when I’m writing, I tend to read a lot of cozy crime. Jenny Wheeler: Actually, I did notice that on your website, you’ve got a page where you put up the front covers of a lot of the books you’re reading, which was quite a fascinating thing. I’d picked up Theodore Brun there and thought that there’s quite a few there that I thought, Oh, these look like great possibilities for interviews in the future. M.J. Porter: Oh, absolutely. Yes. I like to keep my Goodreads up to date with what I’m reading so people can see what I’m doing, but they’ll also see that I’ll pick up a book and then I’ll not finish it. And then I’ll come back to it later, but it’s just what I’m feeling. Looking down the time tunnel. What would MJ change? Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing you’d change about your writing career, what would it be? M.J. Porter: I find this one really hard cause I don’t know, cause there are lots of things that I wish I’d known, but also. If I didn’t learn them when I learned them, then I wouldn’t be where I am now. So it’s quite difficult. I think probably the main thing that I would say is I wish I’d. I’d invested more in my indie career to start with and not played a lot of the looking for an agent looking for a publisher game, I should have just got on with the things that I had some control over. And when you indie publish obviously you have a lot more control so I think I should have just been better at that is about the most honest thing that I can say. But, equally, as I said, if I hadn’t done everything the way that I’ve done it, I don’t think I’d be where I am now. Jenny Wheeler: Tell me what is next for M.J. as author looking ahead for this next 12 months, what have you got on your desk? M.J. Porter: For the next 12 months, I do quite a lot of writing, so this list might become a bit long, but my intention is I’m currently working on Icel Book #6. So that’s the sequel to Protector Of Mercia. And then. I want to go back to my Last King series. I’ve left my character in a right pickle. It’s taken me about a year to even start thinking about how I can get him out of it. You always think, oh, it’s a great ending, but then the next bit I’m not too sure about. I’ve definitely got those two. I’ve also got a nonfiction book that’s coming out in January, which I’m really excited about. It’s about The 10th century Women Who Made England is how I’m titling it. I’m very excited about that. I’m considering doing another nonfiction book, but I’m torn. I’ve got two things that I’m thinking about. I think it will be where my research goes. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} MJ is busy – Loaded with new projects And then I want to start on a new project as well, which will be maybe more Dark Ages, as we were discussing earlier, the bit we don’t know so much about, so not the legend of Arthur. I don’t want to do that, but I do want to look at what’s going on. And there’s a lot of research at the moment. All the archeology is contradicting everything that’s written down. There’s things there that I can definitely get on with. So I’ll be busy, but I like to be busy. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. So how many books do you like to try and publish a year? M.J. Porter: I can’t remember the answer to this one because I keep changing it. I think there was a point where I could maybe write six books a year, but I’m not doing that now. I think I’ve scaled it back a little bit. I think I like to try and do about four because there’s so much editing involved working with bold words. It’s slowing me down a little bit. I’m not objecting to it. I’m just saying it’s slowing me down a little bit, but it’s also teaching me a lot I’m going to aim for four. I’ve got lots of series that I leave all my characters for about a year and then I always promise my readers I will get back to them. And the worst thing that I’ve done is I’ve got another series, the one that started with Ealdorman Athelwine, and I didn’t write another book for three years. It was so hard to go back. In the end, I had to give up and read the previous book because I couldn’t remember what had happened. I plan never to do that again. Jenny Wheeler: Four books a year is still a very big mission when they’re the sort of books that you’re writing, which are fairly dense in content in terms of the, descriptions and the historical fact. M.J. Porter: Yes, I think you, you probably right. I also feel that I’ve got to the stage now where I’ve written so much about this period in time that it’s almost becomes like my own little universe. So yes, there’s historical facts in there, but a lot of the characters, they might reference something that’s happened earlier in a different book or a different series. Where you can find MJ online Jenny Wheeler: Now the one question we always like to ask, do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? M.J. Porter: I certainly do. I was thinking about this earlier as well because you used to be able to find me most often on Twitter, but obviously Twitter’s not quite what it used to be. But the worst thing about my Twitter is not that. It’s that I’ve got a quite a bizarre handle, which is at colors of unison, but it’s colors spelled the British way. So it’s C O L O U R S O F U N I S O N, which is actually related to my fantasy book, so I’ve had that one for quite a long time. But you can find me on all the other social media channels and I tend to be either MJ Porter Author or M with dashes somewhere amongst there. So I would recommend people, the easiest thing to do is just put mjporterauthor.com into your browser and you’ll find my website and then you can find me wherever else you want to find me as well. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s great. Thank you, MJ. That’s wonderful. Thanks so much for joining us today and being on the show. It’s been fantastic to hear about the dark ages. M.J. Porter: Thank you very much for inviting me. I’ve had such a wonderful time. Thank you. If you enjoyed M.J you might also enjoy… Candace Robb’s Medieval mysteries set in York Candace Robb has turned a passion for medieval history into two best-selling crime series – one with a feisty female sleuth – but both of which stay true to the period while delivering addictive story telling. Candace talks about  how a Cincinnati girl fell in love with medieval York and how she secured a top writer as her early mentor.. LISTEN TO CANDACE Jenny Wheeler: That’s it for today. Remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. See you next time and happy reading.

T.A. Williams writes highly entertaining, escapist romance and cozy mysteries. that take you to exotic locations without you having to leave your armchair. Great in a time like this. Hi there. I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and T.A. or Trevor as his friends called him, came very close to getting published in his early twenties. And then he waited 40 years for the chance to come around again. When it did, he grabbed it with both hands and hasn’t looked back since. This Week’s Giveaway Our Giveaway this week is another BookSweeps Draw. This one is the Read and Reflect Literary, Historicals and Book Club Fiction draw – 40 books, $450 in value and a new E reader to the Grand lucky winner. Take a chance and enter the drawer, get yourself a library of literary historical and book club fiction. You’ll have reading for the next season, including Sadie’s Vow, Book #! in the Home At Last series. ENTER BOOKSWEEPS DRAW Links to thing mentioned in this episode: Cathy Rentzenbrink: thttps://cathyreadsbooks.com John Le Carré:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_le_Carré  Agatha Christie: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agatha_Christie Hilary Mantel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Mantel Via Francigena:  https://www.viefrancigene.org/en/ Sigoric The Serious – founder of the Via Francigena::  https://www.onefootabroad.com/blog/explanation-via-francigena/ Where to find T.A. Williams online Website: www.tawilliamsbooks.com Facebook: @tawilliamsauthor X: @TAWilliamsbooks And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Introducing author T.A. Williams Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s T.A. or Trevor. Welcome to the show, Trevor. It’s great to have you with us. T.A. Williams – (Trevor) Moves easily from romance to cozy mystery in escapist locations T.A. Williams: Thank you, Jenny. It’s very kind of you to invite me on. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve been writing very successfully fiction for a number of years now, but you did have a very successful entrepreneurial career and it is a later in life thing for you. Tell us how you got into the writing T.A. Williams: To be honest, my first ever attempt at a book was at age 14. It was called it was a shameless rip off of Arthur Ransom’s story, set up on Lake Windermere, Swallows and Amazons. That obviously didn’t get very far, all 44 handwritten pages of it. But in my twenties, I wrote a thriller – I was quite into thrillers in those days. And I still have a letter from Collins publishers before they became Harper Collins, where they actually read the manuscript that I sent them twice, and then came this letter saying, “We liked it a lot, but due to the parlous economic situation in the country at the moment, we can’t splash out on a new author.” So that rather shot that one. So yes, had that all worked, then back in the seventies, I might have been a published author. As it is. I had to wait until 2013, 10 years ago. A medieval trilogy which captivated him Jenny Wheeler: Did you continue to write in that interim? T.A. Williams: I wrote another couple of thrillers. They are just sitting there, gathering dust. But I got hooked, to be quite honest, on medieval history. And I wrote a series of three books set around the time of the Crusades. And then – I don’t know if you’ve come across people called the Cathars in southern France. They were basically a Christian sect, but they were deemed heretical by the Pope at the time, mainly because they weren’t prepared to pay their subs to Rome. And as a result of which, he sent a crusade against them. It was the only crusade called by Christians on Christians in Western Europe. I got hooked on that, and wrote the books. Needless to say, nobody wanted to publish them, and it was over the course of years that I gradually changed from that to writing something more like romance, whatever. Jenny Wheeler: You decided you wanted to go a bit more commercial, did you? T.A. Williams: Yes. Basically, the story goes back in the beginning of January 2013. My wife went out and bought the newspaper, and I was reading the culture section in it. And there was an interview with a lady called, I forget what her name was, anyway, she was the editor of the Bookseller magazine at the time. Oh, Cathy Rentzenbrink, that’s her. She’s actually a writer in her own right now. And she was asked, what’s going to be big in 2013? And she said, quotes, in the wake of the success of the 50 shades phenomenon, I think erotica will do well. But not just any old erotica, but erotica with a twist for example, historical erotica. T.A. Williams – Getting the writing bug again So I thought to myself I’m not sure about the erotica, but I can do history. I sat down one weekend and tried to write basically a dirty book and realized within a very short space of time, like about a day and a half that I had neither the experience nor the desire to write a dirty book. I turned the whole thing on its head. And the first book that came out was basically somebody like me, a man trying to write an erotic novel, failing. And in consequence he engages the help of a little group of female authors. to help him out. And the thing descends from there into a certain amount of humor. The book never gets written, their book, but it’s the interplay between the characters and so on.  A certain amount of humour. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s wonderful. And you returned to that theme with your first book in the Dan and Oscar series, Oscar at Armstrong, don’t you? Because you have your retired detective attending a writing school in Italy in which it’s a fancy few days, a long weekend for authors to supposedly learn erotica and poor old Dan is sitting there feeling very uncomfortable. Now that was so convincing that I did wonder if you’d been in that same situation yourself. T.A. Williams: No, I’ve certainly never have been, I’ve never been on any kind of writing course actually, but no, the idea of a course to write erotica would frighten the life out of me. Deciding on a gender neutral author name Jenny Wheeler: You also decided at that point on a gender neutral author name. That’s how you came to be published as T.A. Williams when you’re very happy for us to talk with you as Trevor. You felt that perhaps romance wouldn’t be so readily accepted by women because they are the main romance readers if it was a male seen to be the author. Did you feel now that was that a reasonable assumption? T.A. Williams: Yes. It was something we cooked up between me and my first ever editor that was at what started off, the how incestuous the publishing world is. But I started off with one company, which was then subsumed into Harper Collins, and then moved on from there. Anyway, the editor I had there, between us, we thought it was probably a good idea just to keep my gender vague, just in case. And I still, to this day, I get reviews from people unaware of my gender. In fact, I was just reading reviews on one of the Italian versions of one of my romances, and the lady there was very complimentary about the book. She ended up by saying, Oh yes, and above all compliments to the, and she used the Italian word, lady writer, because she just assumed that I was female. Why should I disabuse them? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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And some female authors use the same tactic because they want to be taken seriously. Like some of the historical authors, for example. I’m thinking of one that I’m going to be interviewing in a couple of weeks, who writes medieval history under a name that’s two initials. Your romance stories are all gorgeous escapist stories. And a lot of them, most of them certainly, take place in continental Europe, mostly in Italy. And you have a long affection for Italy. Won’t you tell us about your links with that country? T.A. Williams: Very quick bio. I went to university to do French and German. And by the way, I don’t always sound like this. I’m just coming out of an attack of Covid at the moment. So if I disintegrate into a coughing fit, you’ll know what it is. I did French and German at university. And then when I came out, I couldn’t get a job. So I thought, Oh, I know what I’ll do. I’ll go and learn another language, make myself more marketable. And the only way you could get a job abroad in those days – now it’s changed a lot more professional – was in English as a foreign language teaching. I applied for these various jobs, and I was offered – in fact in the same week I was offered a job in Lisbon in Portugal, and a job just outside Turin in Italy, and both for the equivalent of 84 pounds a month. Which I was going to say in those days was a lot of money. It wasn’t, but never mind. I took the Italian job simply because it came with a company car. The company car then turned out to be a Fiat 500 with no starter motor, but that’s beside the point. That’s how I got into the Italian side of things. I then spent seven, eight years there. Ended up falling foul of the major hazard of adult education. I married one of my students and we’ll be celebrating our 47th wedding anniversary in a week’s time. Oh goodness, that’s a thought. A reminder of an important anniversary Yeah, actually, that’s… hang on, 20… What are we today? 22nd. (of August, 2023) Oh my God, it’s tomorrow. 23rd. Oh, blimey. Anyway, yeah, no, we’re the 21st, so it’s the day after tomorrow. I’ve got time to find something as a present. Anyway, that was the connection. When we started off, I was living up in the Alps to start off with. And then we moved down for four years after we got married to Florence. I love Tuscany and Tuscany has really stuck in my heart. I think if I wasn’t married to the only Italian who would rather stay in England than in Italy, I’d be back in Tuscany now. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s lovely. And congratulations on that anniversary that’s coming up. I’m glad that you had a chance to remember it, T.A. Williams: I’m right. It wouldn’t be the first time. In fairness, my wife is probably even less romantically inclined than I am. And she forgets as well, quite often. Which is why it’s so weird that I’ve been writing romances, Jenny Wheeler: Yes. T.A. Williams: Really. Jenny Wheeler: One of your romantic coms To Rome with Love is set in a charity bike ride from Venice to Rome, and I understand you did a ride like that some years ago? T.A. Williams: We did. Up until quite recently, actually, up until about three or four years ago, I was doing quite a few of these long distance rides. We’ve been across Spain from right to left and left to right, and we did Venice to Rome, and then we did various other rides in Italy. We did Pisa through Florence, Tuscany, Umbria, down into Rome again. Yeah, I did a lot of that, and it was quite nice to draw upon personal experience. Chasing Shadows – a time slip novel on the Pilgrim’s Way Jenny Wheeler: I bet it was. And also, another one of them, Chasing Shadows, which is actually a time slip novel, which is slightly different from what you’ve been mainly doing, is set along the Pilgrim’s Way. Perhaps you haven’t walked that, but you obviously have done quite a lot of cycling in Spain. T.A. Williams: That was the big trip that I did in 2006 when I finally gave up the day job, and I decided this is something I wanted to do. With a couple of friends we set off and we cycled from the UK all the way down through France. We took the ferry across the channel first, all the way down through France, over the Pyrenees, turn right and across to Santiago de Compostela. So, it’s 1900 kilometers. It was about three weeks, but it was a memorable achievement. And that really was what sowed the interest in my mind of wanting to write something set on that particular track. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. We haven’t got onto talking much about your books. We must get onto the books. But I’m sure that people have become convinced that you really know your stuff when it comes to the continent and all of them have got a most fantastic sense of the locations that they’re in. The latest one for Oscar and Armstrong is Murder in Siena, number four in the series. It’s just recently out. Tell us a bit about that one. Ex DCI from London Police, now settled in Italy T.A. Williams: That one is, as I say, I do have Tuscany very much to my heart, and so I started off with a general Tuscan one, then we did Chianti, then we did Florence. This one is the story, by this time, book four, Dan Armstrong, the ex DCI from the Metropolitan Police, who’s now settled in Italy. He’s set up his own investigating agency. He and his girlfriend and a couple of friends, one of whom is a husband as a senior officer in the Florentine murder squad, go for a holiday in a. country hotel just outside Florence and then all kinds of mayhem happens. Dan and Oscar step in and solve the crime. Jenny Wheeler: Oscar is there in all of the books, this beautiful black Labrador. And I see that he also even creeps into one or two of your other stories as well in the Dan and Oscar series. He is there on the cover of all the books, he’s like a totem for the series. Tell us about your affection for black Labradors. Have you had one yourself? T.A. Williams: That all goes back to good old Merlin. Merlin, the best dog who ever lived, in my humble opinion. We got him as an abused child and the vet said he’d be lucky to live for six years. He lived to 13 and a half. That’s pretty good. And he was just a lovely dog. When he died, I was all set to get another one, but my wife said no, I can’t go through that again. We haven’t had a dog since, and in consequence, I put a black lab into all my books. It’s as simple as that. Seeking a change from romance Jenny Wheeler: That’s gorgeous. I had a white German shepherd called Taha that I have a similar kind of relationship with. I’ve still got her ashes and I plan to have them buried with me. T.A. Williams: Yeah. They are fully paid up members of the family. No question about it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s right. You started by writing romance with one publisher. So how many romances did you do before you turned to doing the cozy mysteries? Roughly. T.A. Williams: I have to look up on the wall in front of me I’ve got all the covers of the books. I think I’ve just written my 30th romance, something like that. It might be 29 or 31. And then s year and a half ago, I j felt I needed just a bit of a palate cleanser, really, and a bit of a change. I wrote a thriller and sent that into my publishers and they said, nah, it’s not really what we want. I thought, all right, fair enough. So I wrote A Murder in Tuscany, the first of the Dan and Oscar series, and sent it to them. And they had to think about it and said, nah, we’d rather have something based in the UK. So fair enough. I sent it to Boldwood Books, which is another publisher. And bless them, two days later I got a response from them offering me a six book contract. That’s how it happened. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. So you’re now continuing in parallel lines with the romance and the cozies? T.A. Williams: Exactly yes. I’m probably writing four books a year now. Probably one romance and three Dan and Oscars, something like that. Jenny Wheeler: Gosh, that’s a quite a production. Tell us a typical working day. What does it look like? A typical working day for author T.A. Williams T.A. Williams: My typical working day is, I tend to get up, the older I get, the earlier I get up. I have some breakfast, and come and sit down in my study. And on and off probably most of the morning. Because I’ve got a dodgy back mainly caused by all the cycling, by the way. I because of that, I have to keep getting up and walking around and moving around. But basically, most of the morning is spent writing. The afternoon, I either get the bike out and go for a ride or go for a long walk. We live here in the wilds of Devonshire and there’s lots of little lanes you can walk around. And then  come back, maybe reread what I wrote in the morning, and then six o’clock sit down and watch The Simpsons on TV. That’s my regular schedule. Jenny Wheeler: You say that writing has become like a drug for you. Tell us about that and your perhaps your changing relationship with your creative life. Has it always been like that? T.A. Williams: On and off. The day job, which was, like you were saying, I was running a language school, was very much a full time job, particularly in the summer when we had something like about 500 students with us at any one time. But writing was a relaxation in the evenings while I was working. And then when I retired, I thought I’ll do something to occupy my time. I have a very low threshold of boredom. Ask my wife. As a result, that’s how it started. I just finished writing book number seven in the Oscar and Dan series at the end of July. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Between plotters and pantsers… And I’m now pretty seriously into planning the next one, but I haven’t actually started writing yet, and I’ve been feeling quite almost bereft for the last three or four weeks. It’s something that’s taken me over, and I’m not complaining. It’s wonderful, it gets me out of bed in the morning, it’s a real new lease of life from that point of view, but it is, yes, it is a drug to an extent, but a nice drug. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And you mentioned about the planning, how much outlining do you do before you start writing? T.A. Williams: Yes, you know as I’m sure. What people have told you over the years is there are two types of writer. There’s the plotter and the pantser. The plotter plots everything in advance. The pantser writes for the seat of the pants. I’m definitely the latter. When you’re writing a romance where you know that it’s going to be a happy ending it’s not really quite so important because you know where it’s set, you know who the main characters are going to be and you work it out as it goes along. With a whodunit, it’s quite important for the author to know who’s going to get killed and who the murderer is. Having said that… I find now, I don’t actually make up my mind who the murderer or murderers is or are until at least halfway through the book. Trevor is as surprised as anyone by outcomes Now, the advantage of that, is it means that from the point of view of the reader, there’s no way they can accuse me of deliberately feeding them lines or whatever that they’ve missed out on. The fact is, I don’t know myself, and then when you gradually work through that… Then you can, because that’s a lovely thing, writing on a computer rather than, when I first started writing, I was writing on a manual typewriter, where basically what you’ve written more or less stays unless you rewrite the whole darn page. Whereas with a computer, of course, you can copy and paste stuff and move it around. Yeah, I’m definitely a seat of the pants merchant. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s interesting. Yes. In Murder in Sienna, there were multiple possibilities and in the end, as you suggest, more than one culprit in the end. T.A. Williams: That’s just, the way that it worked out in my mind. I got through one murder and then thought, who the hell did that? All right, hang on a minute. It sounds a little bit Heath Robinson, but that’s pretty much the way that I do it. It seems to work for me. Jenny Wheeler: And have you any sense how long Dan and Oscar might go on or Oscar and Armstrong as we should call them? That’s the name of the series. Oscar and Armstrong have a strong future T.A. Williams: I’ve just signed another six book contract with Boldwood. And I’ve just written book number seven I’m just about to start book number eight. I think I would be disappointed if I didn’t at least finish this series, this set of six books. And who knows? When I read the reviews, and I really do read every single review that I get for Dan and Oscar, particularly good old Oscar, they seem to have hit a chord and a lot of people really like the characters. One thing, by the way, for me, it’s been very liberating writing Dan and Oscar because whereas with my romances, I was writing everything through the eyes of the main female protagonist, which is a risky business for a man to try and think himself into the head of a woman. With the Dan and Oscar books, I’m writing it in the first person through the eyes of a man who’s not that much younger than I am. And that’s really has been a liberation for me to be able to pretty much use my own voice in terms of what Dan actually says. Jenny Wheeler: It’s very nice in the first book in the series that Dan, at that point, his marriage is pretty much broken up. He’s facing divorce. His wife is the one who has exercised her right to say she wants out. And he’s lingering in hope that they might be able to patch things up, even though he suspects it’s not going to happen. And you feel as if you are really getting a male viewpoint in that character, which is a nice thing. In a lot of romance, the men are considered to be less sensitive emotionally, and I suppose when it’s written from a woman’s point of view, maybe women are more inclined to think that. You really get a fresh idea of the male experience in that first book in the Dan and Oscar series, even though it isn’t technically a romance. Writing from the female perspective T.A. Williams: I think you’re right, certainly from my point of view, the other thing is, I don’t actually read much in the way of romance. I don’t really have anything much to judge myself against. From that point of view, what I’m doing with the romance is very much a Trevor Williams attempt. Like I say, thank God you reminded me I almost forgot the t anniversary in two days’ time. But my wife and I, she’d be the first to agree. We’re not really terribly romantic people. And it’s so nice to be able to write something because I think you lot, this is women of the female persuasion – you do tend to overthink things a bit somehow. That’s the impression I get. I may be totally wrong. I might be screamed off the internet for this, but I think with a man you’re probably, particularly, let’s face it, the guy is 56 going on 57. He’s seen life 30 years with a murder squad in London. He’s pretty savvy as far as what’s going on inside the human brain is concerned. He certainly, I think is able to say to drill down to the how do I feel about this woman. Yes, I still love her. I’ve got to do something about it. Whereas quite possibly she probably would spend two or three pages saying exactly that. That’s my feeling anyway. Jenny Wheeler: And in the Siena book the policeman that you’ve mentioned, the Florentine detective. He’s starting to have a few niggles in his relationship, which Dan recognizes are symptoms that his own marriage went through where the wife is getting sick of police duties taking up so much of their lives. So that’s also a very interesting little twist on that. The wonders of the human imagination T.A. Williams: I have no background in policing whatsoever. This is all imagination. That’s the wonderful thing about the human brain. I can think myself hopefully reasonably successfully into the mind of a woman, but at the same time I can also think myself into the head of a former detective chief inspector in the murder squad. It’s definitely the way that I try to go about it is to basically, in pragmatic terms, what would this guy feel in these circumstances, whether it’s trying to sniff out who the murderer is, or whether, in fact, it’s how he feels about people, things, his life, marriage, and so on? Jenny Wheeler: One other thing that I’m interested in, the books have a very strong sense of geography, and you go into a lot of detail about village streets and shops on village streets. Is that entirely imaginational, or do you actually journal when you go overseas traveling? T.A. Williams: Oh certainly, I don’t like to write about anywhere that I haven’t visited. And as I say, we lived in Tuscany in an 11th century convent. We rented a flat for a couple of years in the hills outside Florence. And in consequence, I know that area pretty well. I feel I’ve got quite a handle on the locals. I have some very good friends over there still. When we go over, if we can, we go and see old friends, pick up old friendships. I do have certainly a lot of Italian connections, and, of course, through my wife. She’s from the very north of Italy, up to the north of Turin, in the pre Alps, really the foothills of the Alps. Never Miss out! 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I caught this Covid after a week spent with the family in the Alps, and I obviously caught this on the plane coming back. They give me a lot of experience, a lot of things to draw on. And of course, my wife is invaluable, except for the fact she’s now been 40 odd years in England. She probably knows less about modern day Italy than I do. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. Turning from the books to looking at your wider career, you’ve mentioned about running the language school. Did you simply get to the point where you felt it was a good time to step aside from that and try something different? T.A. Williams: It was really a combination of circumstances. The way that it worked out, the language school, I won’t go into the details of it, but I ended up running the school. And when the time came, I had the option to sell up and I thought, okay let’s do that and see what see what life can produce. I then spent a couple of years doing property development, which was, according to my physiotherapist, not the most sensible thing for a 60 something year old to do. And when I finally knackered my back for the last time, I decided I’d better do something a little bit more sedentary. Jenny Wheeler: If there’s one thing as the “quotes” secret of your success in your creative career, what would it would be. Secret of success? ‘Sheer blind luck’ T.A. Williams: Quite simply sheer blind luck. Don’t under underestimate luck. Oh, yes, plus a fair shot of I think perseverance because I say I’ve been writing since I was 14. That took me until I was 60, 64 before I found a publisher. But yeah, luck. As I say, I, when I left university, the two things I knew with absolute certainty were, one, I didn’t want to be a teacher. And two, I didn’t want to marry a foreigner because language is so important, blah, blah, blah. So, what do I end up doing? I marry  an Italian and I become a teacher. It’s just sheer blind chance is so important. And that’s why if you’ve got people listening to this, you’ve got kids who are trying to make up their minds, what they want to do in life? Don’t worry. It’ll happen. One way or another, it’ll work itself out, I’m sure. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. Turning to Trevor, as reader, we always like to ask our authors what their own reading tastes are and whether they’d like to recommend anything to our listeners. What do you like to read and what would you like to recommend? T.A. Williams: I went through a stage of being very interested in one of the greatest authors I think of the 20th century. It has to be John Le Carre. I love his stuff. But also. the other series of three books, but the ones that I particularly like Hillary Mantel. Bless her, who died quite recently Wolf Hall has to be an absolute classic, followed by the next one, is it Bring Up the Bodies, then the third one them certainly. For my own purposes, I’m currently reading my way right through the whole Agatha Christie canon, and there’s no getting away from it, there’s a reason why she’s outsold virtually everybody else apart from Shakespeare, the woman knew what she was doing. Agatha Christie’s special gift as a writer Jenny Wheeler: Expand on that a bit. What is it specifically she does that’s made her, virtually immortal? T.A. Williams: I think yes, I think it’s the way that she manages to involve the reader in the story, so she doesn’t lay it on with a trowel, she doesn’t say, oh, this man looks seriously suspicious. I wouldn’t trust him with that. No. It’s just things she slips in comments, she can, describe somebody in a sentence and you immediately get the measure of that person. So that I think is very important. And also, it then keeps you fully riveted because you find yourself. Looking, as you read along, looking for the clues, because the thing that I do find, because I watch quite a few Midsummer Murders and things like that on TV, and there’s some very good whodunnits going around. But some of them, rather in my mind, they cheat by introducing literally in the last 10 minutes, bring in this sort of deus ex machina thing where suddenly we discover that, ah, but she wasn’t married to him at all. Was she? You can’t really do that and still involve the reader all the way through, because the reader can quite rightly turn around to you and say I didn’t know that, so how can you expect me to work out who’s who? Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. Looking back down the tunnel of time. If there was one thing in your creative career that you’d like to change, what would it be? Turning point – the Collins letter back in 1973 T.A. Williams: I suppose it would be that famous letter from Collins back in 1973 or four, whatever it was, because had they taken me on as a, as an author then and thrown their resources at it. Who knows, maybe I might have been able to live my life as an author. Having said that, I’ve been a very lucky man really. I’ve had a very enjoyable life and the work I did with the language school. I’ve traveled all over the world trying to promote the English language courses. I’ve had a chance to see and meet some fascinating people, visit some lovely places. So no, I’m not complaining. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s great. Give us an idea of what’s next for you on the next 12 months. What’s coming across your desk? You have indicated about the new contract with Boldwood. What are you doing T.A. Williams: The next 12 months? There’s another romance coming out in early November, and then there’s another romance coming out next May. Both of them, I’m pleased to say, I’ve already written, and I don’t really like deadlines, so I always like to be ahead of myself, so I’ve written those two already, so that’s done. That means I can concentrate now for the next few months on the whodunnits. We’re off in October, hopefully flying over to Pisa and be able to spend 10 days or so in Italy, and there, I’m going to check out Verona, which I have been to before, actually on a bike ride, but you get there after 100 kilometers on a bike and have that much time for sightseeing. I’ll go up and check Verona, maybe might think about Murder in Verona. And then also I think probably go down to the south of Tuscany, and check out – I don’t know if you ever heard of a thing called the Via Francigena, which is Italy’s answer to the Camino. Waling the Italian version of the Camino Way basically, it was back in 900 and something or other. I forget his name Bishop Ethelrick or something from traveled all the way from Canterbury to Rome and back. And this is the route that he followed and it’s pretty much now been redeveloped and espoused by the various regions of Italy and there’s some beautiful scenery there. I think I might do that. And then I’d also like to go back to Elba. I’ve only been once on holiday 40 years ago, I’d like to go to the island of Elba. So, my next 12 months will be a certain amount of research trips and then writing them up. Jenny Wheeler: The two romances that you’ve got coming out, have they got titles yet? T.A. Williams: That’s a very good question. Yes, the one coming out in November is going to be called Change of Heart. And I would just say, I don’t choose the titles these days. The publisher more or less says, Oh yeah, why don’t we call it that? And, generally speaking, I go along with it. And the next one after that, coming out in May, is going to be called Far From Home, I think it is. I quite like it. T.A. Williams: I thought it would have been nicer to call it So Far Away, but anyway, it’s Far From Home. Jenny Wheeler: Are they linked in any way? I see some of your romances seem to follow a series format where they have similar titles. Where Trevor can be found online T.A. Williams: Yeah, similar titles, but every single one of the romances is completely standalone. The characters are all completely independent they can be read in any order, unlike the Whodunnits. They are also standalone books, but there is, as you mentioned, this thread in the life of Dan and Oscar, and Dan’s failed marriage, and then he finds his girlfriend, and things work out. Does it get a bit rocky, will they, won’t they? There’s a certain amount of that coming in. Jenny Wheeler: Now, the final question we always like to ask just to make sure that you have a chance to interact with your readers. Do you enjoy hearing from your readers and where can they find you online? T.A. Williams: I love hearing from my readers. every now and then I get a a letter through or an email through via my website. I have a website, which is www.tawilliamsbooks.com.. If you Google TA Williams books, you’ll find page after page of it. Very happy for that. Also Twitter or X as it’s now known. I’m on there as well as TA Williams books.  Facebook? I’m on there but I don’t really post an awful lot. And I’ve been persuaded by my new publishers to have a presence on Instagram, but that’s basically all I’ve got, is just a presence. So yes, I’m certainly not terribly clued up, but I’m very happy. And as I say, every single review that I get, I have a thing set up on the Amazon Reviews, that every time a new review comes in, I read it. And because I do, particularly with the Whodunnits, which is a new kind of departure for me, I do learn from it, I really do. And happy wedding anniversary People, come along and they say, Ah, yes, but shouldn’t you have done so and you think about it, and think yeah, maybe I should have done that. Yeah, always delighted to hear from people. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful, Trevor. And thank you so much for being willing to take part today when you are recovering from this blessed virus. And happy anniversary for the day after tomorrow. T.A. Williams: Thank you. I should now go off and make a note of it to remember to do something about it. Jenny Wheeler: you’ll be one up in the marriage, won’t you? T.A. Williams: Yes. Brownie points count, Jenny Wheeler: Thanks a lot, Trevor. You’re going into your evening, but thank you so much. T.A. Williams: Thanks once again for having me on and anybody who’s listening, thanks very much for tuning in. It means a lot to know that there are people out there, not least in the Southern Hemisphere as well as the Northern Hemisphere, who are actually interested to hear about the stuff I do. Bye. Bye. Bye. If you enjoyed T.A. Williams you might also enjoy… Fiona Valpy’s French romances are like a glass of wine in French sunshine – a perfect summer – and pandemic escape. But she writes more than romance. Fiona’s best-selling World War II fiction tells stories of remarkable women, generations apart, who use adversity to their advantage and find resilience deep within. LISTEN TO FIONA ON BINGE READING Next Week on The Joys of Binge Reading Next Week On Binge Reading. M J Porter and her Saxon England. Eagle of Mercia Chronicles. Book Five in the series, Protector of Mercia. This is a sweeping chronicle from ninth century Britain. It’s AD 833, and a death bed oath leaves the lives of two Royal infants hanging in the balance. Alone in the Northern lands. Icle finds himself facing his worst fears. Can he rescue the children from their captors or will he fail and lose his life as well in the process? That’s next week on Binge Reading. And just another little reminder. Leave us a review so others will find us too and great books they’ll love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and Happy Reading.

New York Times and USA Today best-selling author, Sharon Sala is a queen of romantic suspense with more than 130 books published in multiple genres, but particularly she concentrates on writing small town romance and thrilling romantic suspense. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And on Binge Reading today, we’ve got a real treat. Multiple award-winning author Sharon Sala talks about her latest two releases; Don’t Back Down, her new romantic suspense and a new series, and the small town romance The Next Best Day. She also talks about her remarkable gift for dreaming the stories she writes and the native American heritage from two great grandmothers she is happy to claim as her own. Our Giveaway this week Our giveaway this week is free genre fiction on Kobo, a fantastic range of popular genre fiction from top authors. Take your pick, whether you like mystery, romance, sci-fi or audio books, all of them freely available for a limited time. That includes Poisoned Legacy Book #1 of my Of Gold & Blood mystery series. And we’ve also got a Box Set 30% Off Sale. Visit the following link(s) to see the promotion: https://www.kobo.com/p/free-ebooks! If you live in a country that isn’t included in this promotion, you may have trouble accessing the download link. If this happens, change the flag at the top of the Kobo homepage to one of the included countries to see the sale link properly. FREE GENRE FICTION DOWNLOAD BOXED SET 30% OFF SALE I’ve got the first three books in Of Gold & Blood included; that’s Poisoned Legacy, Brother Betrayed and Double Jeopardy – all available in a Boxed Set E-book at 30% off Visit the following link(s) to see the promotion: ​https://kobo.com/p/august-boxset-sale​! The promo code for this campaign is: AUGBOX. bOXED SET SALE 30% OFF And remember if you enjoy the show, leave a review so others will find us too. Links to things mentioned in the episode Dinah McCall: https://www.fictiondb.com/series/prophecy-dinah-mccall~37613.htm https://www.goodreads.com/author/list/40571.Dinah_McCall Dreamcatcher: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/71819.Dreamcatcher The Survivors: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/243251.The_Survivors There’s A Squirrel in the Attic: https://www.amazon.com/Theres-Squirrel-Attic-Sharon-Sala/dp/0989628671 Killers of the Flower Moon: (Books) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killers_of_the_Flower_Moon Killers of the Flower Moon movie: (Due for release later this year) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killers_of_the_Flower_Moon_(film) John Harte: https://www.johnhartebooks.com/ The Last Child: (John Harte): https://www.amazon.com/Last-Child-Novel-John-Hart/dp/031238033X Where to find Sharon online Website: www.sharonsalaauthor.com Blog: https://www.facebook.com/sharonsala Contact: https://sharonsalaauthor.com/contact/ Introducing Sharon Sala romance author Sharon Sala – Nora Roberts Lifetime Achievement Award author of romance and romantic suspense But now here’s Sharon. Hello there, Sharon, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Sharon Sala: Thank you. Glad to be here. Jenny Wheeler: You’re a New York Times and USA Today best-selling author, you’ve got 132+ plus books published in seven different genres, first published in 1991, and you still have a passion for writing 40 years later. What drives that passion? Sharon Sala: Oh, I don’t know. I always loved storytelling. I was a reader from a very early age and a dreamer. I just daydreamed. Everything in my sleep was dreams. It’s like going to the movies when I go to bed. I just wanted to put them on paper and share them with people who like to read. Jenny Wheeler: And so, did you start writing at a very young age? Sharon Sala’s latest books Sharon Sala: No. I was just an avid reader. It was probably the early 80s when I first thought about it, and I wrote two books and put them under the bed and never did another thing with them until the mid ‘80s. And then I got serious about it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. We’ll get into that story a little bit later on, but we’ll focus on your most recent books. Although I mentioned the seven genres, you have focused very strongly on romantic suspense and contemporary romance, probably mostly of a sweet and small town nature. And your latest romantic suspense series is one called Secrets and Shadows. You’ve just started a new series. You’ve got multiple series, I might add. And it’s set around the Pope family in Jubilee, Kentucky, a small mountain town. Could you introduce us to the Popes and to Jubilee? This is going to be a series. Do you know how many books it’s going to be yet? Sharon Sala: Yes, I just finished the fifth and last book last week, and I’ve been editing all week and I’ll turn it in. There are several groups of Popes, but everybody who lives on Pope Mountain is interrelated from being early day settlers. The first Pope that you run into in Book #1. his name is Cameron Pope, and then the second book is about Aaron Pope, and he’s a cousin, and that family has four brothers. They are Aaron, and Sean, and Wiley, and Brendan, Don’t Look Back – #1 in Secrets and Shadows Jenny Wheeler: And that fifth and final book, when will that fifth one actually come out? Sharon Sala: Oh, golly. I don’t know. Probably let’s see. This is going to be 23 to come out in 2024. I’m guessing unless they cram all 3 of them in the last year. in 2024, I would say the 5th one, from the way Sourcebooks has been stringing them out, will probably be published in the first part of 2025. Jenny Wheeler: They launched quite a long time after you finished writing them. You probably can barely remember writing them by the time they come out? Sharon Sala: Sometimes…  I keep a very detailed journal in each book I write, even when they’re not connected. And it’s easy for me to go back and thumb through my journals and find details and remember. Jenny Wheeler: The one that we’ll be talking about a bit today is Don’t Look Back. That is book one. But the second one, Last Rites, has just come out. Now, Cameron Pope is the kind of foundation person you might call it, for the series. He has been a Special Forces agent in Afghanistan for 10 years. He’s returned banged up like a lot of those men were by their experiences and relishing being withdrawn from society. And he meets this woman, Rusty Caldwell, who he had a very fleeting meeting with before he went overseas. She’s had a pretty remarkable career of her own, parallel to his while he’s been away. Tell us a bit about Rusty and Cameron and their relationship. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Cameron was going to his second tour of Afghanistan and Rusty is a undercover FBI agent and she was going to another one of her jobs and they meet by chance in a hotel lobby and find an instant attraction. And they agreed not to even give each other’s names because they knew it was going to be a one night thing. And she called him Soldier Boy. And he called her Angel. And they had the one brief night and parted and were sorry that they lost touch with each other. They both regretted it the minute they were apart that they hadn’t exchanged names. But here we are, maybe four years later, and they meet again because the FBI  -we call them the feds here in America – the FBI has sent Rusty into the town of Jubilee to help investigate what has turned out to be human trafficking. Cameron has become like one of the heads of the Pope family. He’s the oldest of the Popes still living. There’s many older Popes, but they’re all women and grandmothers and aunts. So Cameron’s the main guy here and Rusty is the main woman in his life and they reunite and it’s really good, but they’re also working together to solve this big crime wave that is going through this tourist town. And Cameron has a most remarkable dog. A white giant German shepherd named Ghost, who he connected with in Afghanistan. It was just a little puppy and the puppy followed him everywhere and every time they moved, Ghost went with him. And he taught himself to sniff out bombs. So Ghost was a soldier with Cameron in Afghanistan and when he came home, he was Cameron’s buddy for life. They have a really great relationship. My readers love them. Ghost – a remarkable white German shepherd Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s wonderful. Do you have animals in your books quite often? From the way you wrote about him… it felt like it. I loved Ghost too. Actually I myself had a white German shepherd many years ago now, but yeah, I loved Ghost. And then in Last Rites, you introduce the second member you talked about, Aaron. And that’s got terrific reviews. I looked up some of the reviews and people are already raving about it. They use words like ‘emotionally wrenching,’ ‘sensually appealing,’ ‘edgy and suspenseful,’ ‘hopeful, and endearing.’ That you managed to do all of that in one book! Give us an idea of what happens with Aaron in that Book #2 that’s just out. Sharon Sala: Sure. To start it off their mother, Shirley was a Pope before she married and the boys have not been raised on Pope Mountain, She has four sons and her husband was very abusive. And then he committed a crime, and wound up in prison for life. Shirley and her sons were having a very difficult time existing in this town where they had grown up because of his reputation, so they decided to move home and change their name to her maiden name again. So, here comes Shirley Pope and four new Popes back to Pope Mountain. Aaron was a police officer in Conway, Arkansas, where they lived before and after their father committed such atrocious crimes, they were ostracized and Aaron lost his job. He finally goes back to work again as a policeman in Jubilee and finds his place there. Sharon Sala – an action adventure junkie Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. What do you enjoy about romantic suspense? Sharon Sala: I’m an action adventure junkie. I would watch Terminator 20 before I’d watch one more Bridget Jones Diary. I like the action. I like the drama. I like that there’s justice. I always have to have good winning out over evil. I never let the bad guys get away with anything. I have no problem killing them. None whatsoever. It’s really good work. I don’t never have to see a psychiatrist because I just get it all out in the books. Get rid of them that way. Aaron meets a really sweet woman who helps them solve an almost 200-year-old mystery in their family. When she finds a journal that belonged to the first Brendan the tragedy in that story, I won’t tell it all because I don’t want to give it away, is that they didn’t know until they found the journal that Brendan’s little Chickasaw wife had gone up a mountain to pick berries one day and never came back down. They never knew what happened to her. She disappeared. And so that journal helps the family in this day and time solve the mystery and find her remains. And Last Rites is putting her to rest. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s fantastic. Now you change gears when you move to the other solid stream of your career and that’s the romance. The most recent book in your romance stream is The Next Best Day. That’s a warm hearted second chance romance about a school teacher who has a very tough beginning in life and a solo dad police officer. They both had their wounds in life and they meet in a small town in the South. I wondered if writing those books gave you a great, like almost a holiday going to the beach, after the romantic suspense. Sharon’s romance always has drama Sharon Sala: I do like to switch up genres. It’s relaxing to do that. And it gives me a fresh aspect to start from. My daughter is the school teacher. She’s the 4th generation school teacher in my family. I skipped it. I’m the one who didn’t become a teacher, but I patterned the heroine in that book after my daughter’s life. And after the things that they go through, like there is a lockdown. There’s a school shooting in that book. There’s tragedy in that book. There’s betrayal in that book. I can’t write just a romance. My stuff will have drama in it regardless, even no matter what they call it, I’m going to have drama in a story. I just can’t not. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fabulous. There’s lots of dialogue, both Sam Youngblood’s girls, the police officer’s two young girls, plus the children in the classroom. Terrific dialogue with the kids, really snappy, smart dialogue from these kids. And it has got a real ring of truth to it. I wondered if you saw a lot of children in your life or whether you’ve observed your daughter, but that comes through very strongly. The truths that come from children Sharon Sala: I’m a mother and a grandmother of four, and I helped raise my niece after my sister died. I’ve been surrounded by children all my life. I worked at a public school for eight years. And my daughter has been a kindergarten and pre K teacher – that’s four year olds, five year olds, six year olds for her entire teaching existence, a little over 25 years,. I hear her stories all the time. I know these kids forwards and backwards, and this is just true of their innocence in answering, they don’t lie, the truth comes out whether you’re ready to hear it or not. That I know. Jenny Wheeler: No filter, as they say, Sharon Sala: Absolutely none. Sure, Jenny Wheeler: And Sam Youngblood? obviously the name indicates that he’s got Native American descent, although the story doesn’t really go into that in a long, big way. And I noticed that you mentioned with Last Rites that a Chickasaw wife is involved and you’ve got some Native American background yourself. Do you like to include Native Americans in your stories? Sharon’s Native American heritage Sharon Sala: Back in the day if there was a Native American in a romance book, then it was within a tribe, and in this day and time, they’re everywhere. It stands to reason that a policeman could be a Native American just like he could be an Italian, or a or a Jewish person, or a Baptist preacher, you just don’t know, and it shouldn’t matter, you know what an ethnicity is for a character, at least not to me, and I’m very proud of my Native American heritage. I don’t have enough blood to belong to tribal stuff anymore, but I have a great grandmother who was three quarter Cherokee and another great grandmother -both on my daddy’s side, who’s Cree. She was from the Canadian, from the northern tribes. So those are my ancestors. And then my daughter, my granddaughters all belong to the Muskogee tribe. So here in Oklahoma, to be Indian is normal. There’s way more sometimes and than people know, and we’re just milling around and walking around and everybody just sees what they see, and I just want them to know that. Indians are regular people. They don’t live on reservations here. We don’t have teepees and whatever, we’re just people. And I want them to just be people in my stories and honor them. Jenny Wheeler: You have honored that tradition yourself in several non-fiction books you’ve written, and I’d just like to ask you about how that heritage might have influenced your writing and the way you approach it. Sharon Sala: I know that my daddy was the storyteller of the family. He was one of six brothers, and our family was huge, it was like a clan. Every time we’d get together, he was the one who was telling the jokes and telling the stories. And his brother would say, ‘Doc, tell about the time…’ and daddy would start a story over again. I know that storytelling is a traditional part of Native American tribes, oral history is how history is kept. And so I like to think that’s me continuing the bloodline of storytelling. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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I saw somewhere that a lot of your stories, you dream them first. Do you think that’s part of also the same heritage giving weight to dreams perhaps? Sharon Sala: Yeah, I can’t speak to how it happens. It’s just I was born this way. I’ve always dreamed and it’s always been a whole entire, like a movie. I don’t just dream a little bit here and a little bit there and then wake up. And I usually remember the dreams that matter and my dreams become books. A whole lot of my books are dreams and sometimes they’re waking dreams like a vision. And sometimes they’re sleeping dreams, just like at night. Jenny Wheeler: Wow. I mentioned you’ve written some inspirational non-fiction. Sharon Sala: Yes. Jenny Wheeler: I’d love you to talk a little bit more about that because it sounds like it’s very much part of your whole life. Sharon Sala:. It started because every time I blog on Facebook. I don’t have a regular blog, but I post daily blogs on Facebook and they’re about my life and what’s going on and what I believe and just funny stuff and sad stuff and all kinds of things. And people, my readers and the Facebook friends started saying, ‘I wish you would put these all in a book. Your stories are so wonderful. I wish you would put them in a book.’ And so that’s how the first one came about and it’s called Steering From The Backseat. And it’s a cutest cover. It’s my daughter driving me. It looks like driving Miss Daisy, it’s my redheaded daughter in the front seat of a little Volkswagen convertible and I’m in the back seat waving. Sharon Sala’s inspirational non-fiction And then there was another one called The Light Within. And then When The Spirit Speaks. I know some people freak out about this, but I’m just up front about it. I have seen angels, and I get messages in my dreams, and I pass them on, and a lot of that’s where that came from. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Turning a little bit more to the professional side of your career, you’ve won endless awards. There’s a great list of them on your website. Lots of RITAs from the Romance Writers of America. Is there one amongst those many awards that stands out for you that you were particularly delighted to receive? Sharon Sala: Yes, of course. That would be the Nora Roberts Lifetime Achievement Award. I mean you can’t in our industry, you can’t get any better than that. That’s our Oscar, the lifetime. Oscar Achievement. I also received a Centennial Award from RWA for a hundred books, having a hundred books published. I’m at 137 now. I think the things that have stuck with me the longest though, are the readers that I met that are now my friends and the booksellers I made friends with when I first started. Those friendships have lasted for 32 years, and they are most precious to me. Jenny Wheeler: Before we move away from The Next Best Day, I thought you had a funny little joke, a private joke there that you have your heroine Kate, she’s reading this author called Dinah McCall. Several times it’s referred to how she’s reading a Dinah McCall book and I’d like you to tell us a little bit about Dinah McCall. Dinah McCall – Sharon’s alter ego Sharon Sala: Sure, Dinah is my alter ego. My publisher – it was Mira at the time – I turned in a book that was paranormal. It was called Dreamcatcher. And they wanted to release it separately from the regular romantic suspense. And they said, we need to release this under another name. And I said, no, I want this to be my name. And they said, no, we want you to have a pen name. So that’s how Dinah McCall came about. And Dinah was my sister’s nickname. Her name was Diane and Diane passed away. She died in 1985. So that was about six years before my first book was published. If I had to go along and be called something besides Sharon, I chose the name that my mother called to me half the time. You know how a mother will call her children by the wrong name? I answered to Dinah about half my life anyway, so I thought Dinah McCall would be good. And that’s how she came to be born. Jenny Wheeler: Gorgeous. And is she still writing as well? Sharon Sala: Sometimes. I wrote a Native American reincarnation time travel series a few years ago. It was Wind Walker and The Dove and The Gathering. I wrote those under Dinah McCall, but the last romantic suspense Dinah McCall, I wrote, my fiancé and my childhood sweetheart died of cancer in the middle of me writing that and I had the worst time of my life trying to finish that book. It was called The Survivors and that was technically the last Dinah McCall book, and that was in 2005, 2006 when it was published. Dinah hasn’t done romantic suspense since, just me. Dinah’s still alive in my heart and once in a while I think I’m going to publish something of her’s ’cause I do some self publishing too. And I think I’m going to maybe use her name again. Dinah beat Sharon in best -seller stakes Jenny Wheeler: Great. Sharon Sala: I will tell you a funny Dinah story. She beat me, she beat Sharon to the New York Times best-seller list. So I was perturbed bout that!. Jenny Wheeler: What book was that for? Do you remember? Sharon Sala: Dark water. It was like, dang it. Jenny Wheeler: Your sister was probably laughing from heaven. Sharon Sala: Oh, I knew it. The minute it happened, I said ‘it figures. She was so competitive. She was a little bit younger than me, but she was the boss and I didn’t care. And I said that ‘figures she beat me to the New York Times bestseller list and I know she’s laughing her ass off.’ I just knew it. Jenny Wheeler: Turning away from the specific books to talk a little bit about your wider career. What kind of work and life experience did you have before you got around to writing? Did that affect your writing in any way? Sharon Sala: Probably just because it was life experience. I was a farmer’s daughter. And I worked for a couple of years at an Air Force base when I was out of college. I didn’t graduate, but I was out of college. And then after that, I worked off and on after I married a farmer, so I was a farmer’s daughter and married a farmer and I worked at all kinds of funky little jobs. But for the most part, full time on the farm, driving wheat trucks, hauling hay, building fence, planting gardens, raising babies, mowing yards, everything you can think, chasing cows that get out on the road, everything you can think of. I worked in a grocery store once, checking groceries, checking them out, and I worked in a floor shop for a while, and I worked at a sale barn in the restaurant, serving hamburgers to the old guys who came in there to buy and sell their cattle. I just had a varied life, and it’s been hard, but it’s a blessed one. It’s a blessed one. Chickens led to Sharon starting to write Jenny Wheeler: And how did you make that switch to writing? Was there something that triggered that? Sharon Sala: Yeah. Chickens Jenny Wheeler: Chickens? Sharon Sala:. Every week, chickens would go – chickens from the butcher shop in our meat department – Chickens would go on sale. I lived in a rural community. I said every week, it was sorry, once a month, chickens would go on sale. And I lived in a rural community and half the people raised chickens and had their own eggs and butchered their own chickens. But you’d think there was never going to be another chicken sold as long as they lived because they swarmed the supermarket for chickens. And I was checking groceries and chickens, and that juice was running on the conveyor belt and they stuck and that was the messiest, messiest mess. Sometimes I would check out 15 chickens for one person, just they were packaged, but they were messy. I would go home with it running down my elbows and all over my shirt. I hated when chickens went on sale. I went home one night I had to check out And it was 10:30 when I got home and there sat my husband and two teenage children and they looked up at me as I came in the door and I’m just a mess. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} ‘A job I hated’ started it all – Sharon Sala And they go, ‘Mom, what’s for dinner?’ And I went, ‘what?’ And I made them eat bologna sandwiches and got a typewriter out of the closet and sat down and started writing. Literally, it was that impulsive. I just thought, I cannot do this anymore. I have to tell myself something besides this life. And that’s what started it, a job I hated. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s wonderful. And was that book published? Sharon Sala: No, it was a book that it took me a year to finish because I wrote after work and before I went to work and when it was finished, I knew it was terrible, and I stuck it under the bed, but I was hooked on the process. And I wrote another book, and I stuck it under the bed and it wasn’t any better. And I let it slide, and then four years later, my dad died and two months after that, my sister and I thought, okay, if I’ve got a dream, I’m going to have to go for it myself because in a heartbeat, all of their tomorrows were over. I wasn’t going to wait until I was on my deathbed and say, ‘I wish I’d tried one more book.’ And the next book I wrote, I sold. And that was Sarah’s Angel. What is the ‘secret of Sharon’s success?’ Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s fantastic. If there’s one thing that you see as the quote “the secret of your career,” what would it be Sharon Sala: The refusal to take no for an answer. It’s the hardest job in the world. You’re criticized for everything, and they want to control everything. Publishers want to control every aspect of what you turn in. They agree on something and then it doesn’t happen if you don’t have it in writing, By the time something is due to happen the person who promised it is working somewhere else or been fired, or the publishing house sold out to another one. It is the most crazy, unpredictable job. It’s as bad as being a farmer, because you live for hoping the weather’s okay. As a writer, you live for hoping you live to write another day. Jenny Wheeler: It’s great that you can self publish as well, though, that you know Sharon Sala: It is now. Jenny Wheeler: You can retain some control if you want to that way. Sharon Sala: And I love it. I actually had my first children’s book come out about three weeks ago. It’s a little illustrated book for one of those little ‘read to me books,’ for two to eight year old kids who can’t read and maybe their mama still and daddy still read nighttime stories to him and everything. And it is already a big hit at my daughter’s school and it’s up for sale on Amazon. It’s called There’s A Squirrel In The Attic. It’s a cute little illustrated book, hardback, paperback. Self publishing a children’s book Jenny Wheeler: And you’ve self published that one? Sharon Sala: I did because I could. Jenny Wheeler: Great. We’ll put a links to all of these things that you’re mentioning in the show notes for this episode, so people will be able to find them if they go online and look at the transcript of this chat we’re having so they can look for it there. Turning to Sharon as reader, because we always like to ask our authors about what they read. And if they’ve got any recommendations for our listeners, what do you like to read? And what lately have you read that you’d like to recommend? Sharon Sala: I don’t get a lot of reading time and especially now, like I said, I was on a deadline and I don’t read in my genre when I’m writing. Some of my favorite authors, of course, are going to be the mystery suspense authors because that’s the kind of movies I like to see and the books I like to read. I like Lee Childs, Harlan Coben, Elmore Leonard. I could go on and on. There was a writer a few years ago that I stumbled upon. His name’s John Harte, and that’s H A R T E, John Harte. In my mind, when I read that first book of his that I read was called The Last Child, I was so struck by the perfection of his storytelling and imagery that I wished I was him. It still gives me chills to think about how that story was for me personally. I enjoy stories like that. And of course, I read my friends’ work, all of my friends, but I don’t get as much chance as I’d like. I’m going to read a little bit now that I’ve finished this book. I’ve got a book waiting for me to read. It’s called Killers Of The Flower Moon, and it’s about it the Osage tribe and it’s a true story. They made a movie about that, but it’s about the Osage tribe and the big oil boom they got caught up in an Oklahoma, Looking back down the tunnel of time… Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your creative career that you’d change, what would it be? Sharon Sala: Probably just stand up for myself sooner with editors, to just stand up for myself sooner and not let myself be run over. It was also new and I fell into a box, a niche, and that’s where I wound up, Jenny Wheeler: And what was the box? Sharon Sala: The little box was I write romantic suspense and they wouldn’t let me out. Jenny Wheeler: What else did you want to do that at that time? Sharon Sala: At that time? Gosh, half of my backlist was paranormal. And when one editor that I had left and they took me another I was told I cannot ever write another paranormal romance for them. They didn’t want it. They wanted what I used to write five years ago, and it tanked my sales because half my readers were looking for paranormal and couldn’t get it. Like I said, it’s a hard business, but I learned to bounce, and like I said before, I don’t take no for an answer. If somebody doesn’t want it, I’ll find somebody else who does. What’s next for Sharon the author? Jenny Wheeler: So hopefully you’ve picked up since then and got back right, where we should be? Sharon Sala: Good enough. It’s keeping a roof over my head. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. What’s next for Sharon as author? What have you got on your desk for the next 12 months or example? Sharon Sala: I have a book to write before Christmas. I have a Christmas book for Sourcebooks to write. It’s called, I think, A Snowy Mountain Christmas. It wasn’t the title I wanted, but they changed it, and I have to live with that. I also have another series that I’m going to be starting after I write this Christmas book. I have another Children’s illustrated book that that I’ll be working with an illustrator on beginning in September, and I have one more book to write in that one Walker trilogy that I was telling you about the Native American one. I have one more book to write for that, long overdue. Jenny Wheeler: How long does it take you to write a book? How many do you produce say in a year? Sharon Sala: I am my sole support and I lost my house and all my savings taking care of my mother when she had dementia for 14 years. So I write every day and sell everything I can because that’s what’s keeping me afloat. I write a minimum of three big romantic suspenses a year, and maybe a short story or a novella in between. So three to four books a year, and that’s normal. That’s not a stress. I write as fast as I read. Where to find Sharon Sala online Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Sharon Sala: I love talking to them. I miss going to conferences, because I used to give workshops all the time and that just fills your soul as a writer, being around your people, your tribe. I’m on Facebook and I have an Instagram account, but I don’t do anything on it. So don’t even try to find me there. I have two Facebook pages, an author page and my personal page. But they’re both public, so you don’t have to be my friend. You can just follow me and read what you want to. And the blog is always on my personal page. Jenny Wheeler: We’ll put our links to all of those things in the show notes. Sharon Sala: Thank you. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. It’s been great talking Sharon. It really has been a lot of fun and it’s lovely to meet such a real person. Sharon Sala: A pleasure to meet you and I hope you get all your roofing over with. (Editor’s note: I was having my roof replaced and we had to find a time to record the interview when the roofers weren’t here banging overhead,) Jenny Wheeler: Thanks so much, Sharon. Bye. If you enjoyed Sharon you might also like… Barbara Freethy’s chart topping romantic suspense… Contemporary romance author Barbara Freethy is an Amazon KDP Bestselling Author of All Time with a total now of 12 million books sold in multiple languages. She’s a master of thrilling mysteries, romantic suspense and heart-warming romance. LISTEN TO BARBARA FREETHY Next Week on Binge Reading Escapist romance and mysteries from T. A. Williams,,. Next Week on Binge Reading. Romance written by a man. T. A (Trevor) Williams and also some fantastic cozy mysteries. This man does two things, two great romance and great cozy mysteries. They’re wonderfully escapist stories set in exotic locations with a remarkable black Labrador named Oscar. That’s next week on the Joys of Binge Reading. And once again, a quick reminder, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for people to discover the show and great books they will love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

Australian author Kerry McGinnis makes the Australian landscape come alive in suspenseful, best selling rural mysteries that capture the soul and spirit of the Outback. Hi I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today on The Joys of Binge Reading Kerry McGinnis talks about her childhood in the bush with her father and four siblings – years that helped form her deep understanding of nature, and how she got established as a best selling author while working an outback cattle station with her siblings. This Week’s Giveaway Our Giveaway this week is historic fiction freebies for August including Sadie’s Vow Book #1 in my Home At Last Series. HISTORICAL FICTION FREEBIES Sadie’s Vow, Book #1 in Home At Last INCLUDED A bunch of top authors have got together and offered a great range of historic fiction – Take your pick. ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/historicalfictionfreebiesaugust2023/dm9y0sujx9 download free historic fiction Audio Book Sale Offer AUDIO BOOK SALE Offers are Audio books Galore sale ENJOY BOOKS EVERYWHERE PROMO Poisoned Legacy, Book #1 in Of Gold & Blood INCLUDED ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/audioeverywhereaug2023/kgr0xzcoio​ ENJOY BOOKS EVERYWHERE AUDIO SALE And we also have an Audio Book Sale – Enjoy Books Everywhere – with a range of entertaining fiction – including Poisoned Legacy – Book #1 in Of Gold & Blood series – available at special sale prices for a limited time. Links to follow up on these offers in the show notes for this episode on the website at The Joys of Binge Reading .com. A mention too, that my latest mystery romance Rosie’s Rebellion – #3 in the Home At Last series – is on preorder at a special launch price of .99 cents for two weeks. Order online at your favorite E book store.. And remember – if you enjoy the show. Leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links to things in this episode The Bombing of Darwin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Darwin Katherine:  https://northernterritory.com/katherine-and-surrounds Adelaide River: https://northernterritory.com/darwin-and-surrounds/destinations/adelaide-river-town The Waddi Tree, Kerry McGiness:  https://www.penguin.co.nz/books/the-waddi-tree-9781742280141 Kerry’s Two Memoir books: Pieces of Blue: https://www.amazon.com/Pieces-Blue-Kerry-McGinnis/dp/0655632727 and Heart Country: https://www.amazon.com.au/Heart-Country-Kerry-McGinnis/dp/0670899216 Siege of Tobruk:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tobruk The Renmark Flood: https://monumentaustralia.org.au/themes/disaster/flood/display/51616-the-1956-flood#: Meanjin Quarterly: https://meanjin.com.au/ Charters Towers:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charters_Towers Kerry’s Fantasies: Far Seeker: https://www.amazon.com/s?k=far+seeker&i=stripbooks-intl-ship&crid=3EFWXC6Q2YS1V The Burning Mountain; https://www.amazon.com/Burning-Mountain-Far-Seeker-Trilogy/dp/064680667X The Crow Road: https://www.amazon.com/Crow-Road-Kerry-McGinnis/dp/0646833707/ Kerry’s Favourite Authors Kate Morton: https://www.katemorton.com/ Robert Galbraith: https://robert-galbraith.com/ Jodie Picoult: https://www.jodipicoult.com/ Reginald Hill: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reginald_Hill Robin Hobb: http://www.robinhobb.com/ Linwood Barclay: Lindwoodbarclay.com Rebecca Yarros:  https://www.rebeccayarros.com/ Mary Stewart:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Stewart_(novelist) Where to find Kerry McGiness https://www.penguin.com.au/authors/kerry-mcginnis Introducing author Kerry McGiness Australian mystery author Kerry McGiness and Outback stories Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Kerry. Hello there, Kerry, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Kerry McGinnis: Thank you, Jenny. Thank you for asking me. It’s great to be here. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve made a name for yourself as the author of stories set in remote parts of Australia and their immersive landscapes, and landscape is a very important part of your books. They’re places where people can be lost or found, and it does seem to me that many of your stories have that theme of people retreating into that area when they’ve suffered loss or hurt and losing themselves and finding themselves. Is that a theme that fascinates you? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, I think it’s just a convenient one. I don’t know. I’ve never thought about it fascinating me, but you have to build a story out of something and I think that’s a convenient one to use. It also gives you an opportunity to show character development, which is also very important for a book. Jenny Wheeler: But the nature of the outback landscape lends itself to people wanting to lose themselves, perhaps more than find themselves. Would you agree with that? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, that is true. And the reason I set all my works in the bush is because I lived in the bush all my life and I don’t know how to write about the cities. That’s why I choose the bush. I love writing about it and I love the country. The descriptive part of it comes to me very easily. I can see it in my head as I write because I’ve been over all the areas that I write about because if I haven’t lived there or worked there during my working life, I make a point of visiting them before the book comes out. An Outback road trip mystery Jenny Wheeler: Now your latest book, the one we’re particularly focusing on today, is Bloodwood Creek. And it’s a road trip mystery in a way. It’s set in the Northern Territory. And you’ve seemed to gradually move from family stories to more crime mysteries. Some of the ones you’ve done recently have had an element of crime, but this is really a crime mystery, isn’t it? Kerry McGinnis: Yes, it’s more about crime and about the family saga things that I was more accustomed to write. But with me anyway, as I have written more books, I have grown more confident and moved away from the things that I started with that I seem to know most about and so I’m chancing my arm a bit here in the crime field. I take care not to have lots of scientific details or anything like that because my characters are just normal people caught up in these circumstances who wouldn’t necessarily know about DNA and all the rest of it, so I don’t go there. Jenny Wheeler: But it’s an extremely popular niche and it gives you freshness too, doesn’t it? It helps keep it interesting for you. Kerry McGinnis: Yes, you can’t write about the same thing over and over again or your readers will soon get tired of it. Jenny Wheeler: Your character, Emily, is a strong-willed young woman who’s searching for her cousin, Aspen, who’s gone missing. And at the beginning, it just seems that she might have. wandered off with some friends and decided to join a commune or something. But as the story progresses, Emily gets a stronger and stronger premonition that Aspen is in real danger. And the criminal element becomes stronger as you go along. That introduces that question about plotting and pants and whether you knew at the beginning that you were going to be writing a heavy criminal element or whether it developed as you went along. Setting, then character, then story Kerry McGinnis: Oh, my stories develop as they go along. I start with a locality. I decide whereabouts in the Australian Outback I will set the story. And then I get my first character and give them a problem. Everybody needs a problem, and a desire to do something about it. And then I just keep going and occasionally if I get stuck a good night’s sleep usually works and I wake up in the morning and think, Oh, we could go there. I guess I’m definitely a pantser. I usually have a vague glimmering of how the end will be and I work towards that. But the middle is always a mystery even to me. Jenny Wheeler: And has it always been like that? I know your first two books were actually memoirs, weren’t they? You weren’t doing the fictional thing at the beginning, but has it changed as you’ve gone along? Kerry McGinnis: The first two books were easy because I was only writing what I remembered. When I say easy, they were comparatively easy as far as making anything up went. And the other ones the first one after that was, the next one after the autobiographies was The Waddi Tree, and that was a story I’d had in mind for a very long time, so I had the whole of that in my head, but after that, it was just, ‘let’s see where it goes.’ You can always delete it and do the page over again. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. that’s right. This book I’ve read somewhere was inspired by the war cemetery on the Adelaide River. And I wondered if you could tell us how that sparked into a work of fiction. The beautiful serenity of Adelaide River Kerry McGinnis: I was traveling before COVID. I used to travel every year, somewhere in Australia, and occasionally overseas, and I went through Katherine. I think I had gone to Darwin for a fortnight’s holiday because I’ve never been to Darwin before. This was a fair while ago. And while I was there, I was looking around for things to do. And I took a trip down to the Katherine Gorge because that was another thing I hadn’t seen. And on the way back, we stopped at Adelaide River, and I took a walk around the town and it was late when I got there. I couldn’t get into the cemetery, but it was so peaceful and serene. It was such a beautiful spot and so sad. I went back next morning before we left and I walked amongst the stones and looked at the dates and worked out how young all the people there were, and I thought, I really must get this into a book sometime. And then when the opportunity came with Bloodwood Creek, I thought, ideal, I’ll use that. Jenny Wheeler: So those were Second World War graves, were they? Kerry McGinnis: Yes, and the dead from the (World War II – 1942) bombing in Darwin, the Post Office, so there were civilians there as well, but mostly they were soldiers, airmen, and naval people. Jenny Wheeler: Both Aspen and Emily are strong characters in different ways. And I also gather from what I’ve read that the inspiration for them came from strong women that you knew in your own early days. Could you expand for us a little on that? Kerry McGinnis: All my female characters, unless I want them to be real wimps, are based on the women I knew growing up in the bush, the wives and sisters and mothers sometimes of the people that lived on the stations. And back then it was no easy task to be a woman on a station in an all male dominated area, and to be left alone, sometimes for weeks at a time with just the kids, or if you didn’t have any kids, just yourself and the Aboriginal women at the station. And the resilience of Outback station women Because the men were always away mustering or grading or doing something and you had to be a fairly resilient sort of person to handle whatever came along and to not just give into the loneliness because it was a very lonely life for them. They might get to town once or twice a year and they would get to have other women’s company on rare occasions, like the annual race meeting or the annual camp draft or something like that. There was no ducking out for coffee or picking up a phone because there were no phones to talk to your friends and their mail was usually once a week or once a fortnight. So, it was a very lonely place for a woman to be. I just used a template, if you like, of the women that I remember meeting as a child. Jenny Wheeler: We’re talking about your childhood quite a bit. So perhaps we might right now at this point ask you a little bit about that extraordinary childhood. You have featured in those two memoirs that we mentioned Pieces of Blue and Heart Country were those memoirs. Tell us a little bit about what did happen in your childhood and how you were raised. Kerry McGinnis: My mother died when I was six and my father was responsible for five children, one of them at that time 12 months old. It wasn’t an easy time for him. He was a Second World War veteran. He’d been in Tobruk and he’d suffered badly during the war which resulted in depression and injuries as well, so he wasn’t at all what you’d call healthy. These days you’d say he had mental problems, but He was badly shell shocked, as they used to call it after the war, and he was a nervous wreck for years after that. But he battled along in town with us for a while. He had a career. He was a fitter and turner. And we were in Renmark when the big flood came in 56. And everything was flooded in the town and he decided to get out. So we went to Sydney, God knows why and he got a job there in Nuffield Engineering, and then one day he was just fed up, I think it was a very bad traffic jam, we got caught in, and we were driving somewhere and he said, I’ve had this, we’ve got to get out. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Father said ‘What about we go bush?’ He said, what about we go back to the bush? He was asking us, I was, what, I was 12 and I’m the second eldest in the family, and we all agreed this was a good idea, because we loved traveling, we’d been traveling all our lives, really, he never stayed anywhere very long. So that’s what we did, we went back to the bush, and eventually the next year, actually, that was the year the Sputnik came over, so that would be 57, and the next year we were in Alice Springs, and he bought a four-wheeled trailer and 12 horses, 11 or 12 horses. And we got the trailer towed out of town, and to a place with a yard and started breaking in the horses. And then we had a wagon and our transport and off we went. So that was the beginning of it. We were all thrilled. We didn’t have to go to school. So that was a big thing, although I came to regret it really greatly afterwards. He taught us bush skills and how to ride and work horses. And we just kept traveling and moving until we finally were old enough to work when I was 14, and then we started contracting on stations and a little after that we took up droving. Jenny Wheeler: In those couple of years, how did he actually feed you? Kerry McGinnis: Oh in those days on the stations, you could always get work because he would take on whatever job, go to a station, and he was camp cook once, another time he cooked at the station, he was horse breaking, he was a a bore man looking after bore, he was a pumper, whatever they wanted done he could do it. Men of his generation raised in the bush, they had a tremendous amount of skills, he was a farrier and a welder. He could do anything with horses and he was a very good cattleman. So if nothing else, he could work in a stock camp. Catching up on missed education Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. So then how did you manage to get that education that enabled you to become a writer in later life? Were there important mentors for you that came along Kerry McGinnis: When we bought the station in 62, I think it was. And then we sold it and bought another one in 66 where we stayed for 40 years. And it was while we were there, we didn’t have a mail service, because it was a very remote place. But it was while we were there that I decided, because I was getting nowhere with my writing. I couldn’t spell and my English was appalling. But I kept, writing stuff and sending it off, hopefully, to magazines. And not getting anywhere, and I decided I had better get some education. I wrote to the Secondary Correspondence School in Brisbane, and enrolled with them in English and some other subject. What was it? I think it was ancient history. Don’t ask me why. It just seemed the only thing that I could possibly do because all the others looked too intimidating on the sheet they sent me. I’ve got high distinction for the English and on the strength of that I wrote to the Queensland University and asked would they like to let me do distance education with them, so I got my arts degree that way. Jenny Wheeler: And how old were you when you started that course? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, I was in my twenties. I remember it took me I think it took me eight years from the time I started with the secondary subjects until I got my degree because I was working full time and as I say, we didn’t have a mail service. We used to get our mail once a month, we would drive over to the next property, which happened to be an aboriginal mission and we’d pick it up there once a month and send it out once a month. Getting assignments in on time was always a big problem. Jenny Wheeler: And you mentioned that you’d been writing already. Was this something that was just inside you that you wanted to do right from the beginning? When did you first start writing or do you remember not a time when you didn’t write? Story telling a way of life around the fire Kerry McGinnis: Oh, I started when I was nine years old. Jenny Wheeler: Did you? Kerry McGinnis: Yes, I used to write for the Piccaninnies Pages and the old Women’s Own magazine, which was around in the 50s.  Jenny Wheeler: And what sorts of things did you write then? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, little poems and little stories and anagrams and things like that. I was always a very good reader and because I’d had rheumatic fever when I was nine and wasn’t allowed to play sport I read tremendously. I always had my nose in the book and they had this little thing was the on the Piccaninnies Pages where you wrote a little story made up entirely out of the titles of books you’d read. That was a doddle for me because I’d read hundreds of them. Jenny Wheeler: And where did you get those books when you were in the country? Kerry McGinnis: Oh no, we were living in town at this time. We didn’t actually leave. This was before the 56th flood. We didn’t actually leave till after the flood. Because I was born in 45. Jenny Wheeler: It’s very interesting because going back to your books one reviewer said “anything McGinness writes begs to be read aloud around a campfire.” And it seems to me that the storytelling aspect of writing was also very important to you. And I wondered if you’d had stories read to you when you were younger or how you’d actually, got into that storytelling thing. Kerry McGinnis: Oh, I think that we probably did. All my family has always read. We probably did have stories read to us when we were kids, but I don’t remember. I barely remember my mother at all. And for the rest of it there was nothing like the bush to encourage storytelling because the only entertainment of an evening in yarning. You sit around the fire and tell stories or you play cards. And I was never any good at cards because I’m hopeless at maths. Father was a very keen card player and he was always losing his temper with me because I couldn’t add up quickly enough. We used to talk and, you’d get a few old blokes together and listen to them and it was just fascinating. Kery McGinness: I wrote with words instead of paint The things they’d seen, the things they’d done, the places they’d been and I suppose I that probably spurred me on a bit too. Jenny Wheeler: There seems to be a strong element of that rural storytelling in the Australian culture. Generally, you think about the glamorization of Ned Kelly and Banjo Patterson’s Man from Snowy River. There’s a strong thread of rural storytelling. Do you identify as being part of that? Do you see that as a river that flows onto your banks? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, I don’t know. I can recognize that it’s there. But it’s part of the Australian vote for the underdog, isn’t it? And the anti-government type of thing that’s part of the Australian character, not always admirable, but it’s there. And I suppose there might be a little bit of it, but It makes a good story if the little guy wins in the end anyway, so I suppose any writer could use that. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. reviewers have also commented about, of course, your landscapes, how wonderful you are at rendering landscapes and comparing it to a painterly eye. Did you ever see it that way yourself? Were you ever drawn to art as well or painting? Kerry McGinnis: Oh yes, I did. When I was a kid, I really liked watercolors, and I used to paint scenery, but as I got older, apart from the fact I didn’t have paints, I don’t know, when we were in the bush, we couldn’t get that sort of stuff. But… I would sketch a bit, and then when I got some paints and started again, I was really disappointed because I could never reproduce what I could see and so I gave it up and I thought if I can’t paint, I will do it with words. And I suppose that’s why, because I see it as if I was looking at a picture and, but I haven’t the skill to make the picture live. I have to use words instead. Jenny Wheeler: How did you find a publisher? Did you find a publisher and they encouraged you to do the memoirs or did you do the memoirs and then look for a publisher? Lyrical personal memoirs a beginniing Kerry McGinnis: I dreamt of writing a book, but I was mostly into short stories and competitions and I had a selection of short stories that later became Pieces of Blue. And one of them I was so pleased with that I dared to enter it into the Meanjin contest. And much to my surprise, I won. And it drew the attention of a a woman in Melbourne, and she contacted me and asked me, did I have any more like that? And I said, yes, I had quite a few of them. So, she asked me to send them along and I did. And it was she who took them to Penguin. They agreed that if there were some linking stories. linking sections written to make it into a flowing story, rather than just a series of short stories. Because as she kindly pointed out, no unheard-of writer with no history behind it ever gets a short stories published. She said ‘They do that once you become successful.’ I thought, oh, pardon me, . But anyway, that was how it started. And then, that was going to be it for me., I was just going to be that one book and then I was going to go back and write short stories and articles for magazines and things, and she said, what about to sequel? You’re only 16 or 18 or whatever you are at the end of the book. She said, what about the rest of it? So, I wrote the second one. They took that, and then I thought maybe I could do a fiction one too, so then I started on the Waddi Tree. Jenny Wheeler: Just explain for people who aren’t familiar with it, what the Meanjin contest is. Kerry McGinnis: Oh Meanjin is, as I understand it Australia’s foremost literary magazine, so it’s a very prestigious magazine to have your work appear in, and they had quite a healthy prize back in those days too, so I was very thrilled about it. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Tough times at the Top End Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. You mentioned that you were working full time. What kinds of jobs were you doing while you were writing these books? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, there were three of us with a station to run, and we only had the three of us. And during the 70s – which was the time of the first beef crisis, when you couldn’t sell your cattle. And there was a meat beef mountain somewhere in the world that they were trying to get rid of, and nobody was buying Australian cattle anymore. And it was a very bad time that coincided with some nasty tropical cyclones in the north. and because it was all open range, no fences or anything. It was just getting towards the end of the 70s that the American government said we will not buy any more Australian cattle until they’ve all been tested for TB and brucellosis. So we had to on top of all our other problems, we had to put up a boundary fence, an internal fence, and we had to test every beast on the property, and we could only sell them under a green tail tag, which meant that they had to go and get tested. To a designated meat works. They were sold at a set price. I don’t know who set the price, the government or somebody set the price and that was it, take it or leave it. If you didn’t, you couldn’t sell at all. It was very hard times and we were all, three of us, my brother and sister and I were working flat out all the time just to keep the place running and, to get by. Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned before we started on the recording that you also did journalism work for an American magazine sometime in those years. Tell us about that. You mentioned that the Americans were fascinated by your lifestyle there in the Outback. Kerry McGinnis: Yes. I think that we were where they were a hundred or so years ago as far in the stock industry, because they didn’t have the big country anymore. I don’t know when their country was first fenced over there, but the Gulf Country, the Kimberley, and the Top End and the Territory was the last in Australia to be boundary fenced and to get dragged kicking and screaming into the 20th century. It was a very expensive time and I think that it was something completely new. to the Americans to read about what their country probably was like, 100 or more years before. Anyone that was interested in America in cattle and horses found it interesting. And they didn’t have scrubbers, they didn’t have dogs for pulling down cattle. A country like no other They didn’t have the wild horses or anything like that like we had over here and particularly they didn’t have the space. Ours was not a particularly huge property, but we had 900 square miles and our neighbor had 3000. And you just don’t get areas of land like that anywhere else in the world, really, Jenny Wheeler: How many cattle did you have on 900 square miles? Kerry McGinnis: Not a great number. I think we’ve got up to five and a half thousand probably at our best. But it’s very poor country. You have to understand the country up in the north is very mineral deficient and it’s very tough country for anything to live in, including stock. It does better now that they’ve got Brahmins there. But back then in the 70s, it was all Shorthorns, and they’re British breeds, so you can understand they’re not really suited to the tropics. Jenny Wheeler: Your dad’s life sounds like it was in a way rather sad. Did it end better? Did he have a good end Kerry McGinnis: He grew old and he died in Charters Towers in a home because he was no longer able to get the medical help that he needed out on the station. He couldn’t stay on the station. He had to go somewhere where he could get medical help and assistance. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Kerry McGinnis: But he lived to be 85, which, considering the life he’d had, wasn’t so bad, really. Jenny Wheeler: He must have had some good years when you were all on that farm together. Kerry McGinnis: Oh, yes, yeah. And they’re not farms, Jenny, there’s stations. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, sorry. Station. Kerry McGinnis: There’s a big difference between a farm and a station. The ‘secret’ of Kerry McGinness’s career Jenny Wheeler: I accept your rebuke very much! But turning away from specifically talking about the books. If there’s one thing as quotes the secret of your success in your writing career, what would it be? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, I think persistence. I meet a lot of people, all writers do, and they say; Oh yes, I’m going to write a book one day. And you say to them, So what have you written so far? Oh nothing. I’m waiting for the kids to grow up. I’m waiting for us to retire. I’m waiting for whatever. And I always think if you don’t start today, you are never going to write a book. Because you can talk about it, you can dream about it, but you don’t actually get a book out of doing that. You have to sit down and work at it every day. So I think persistence is the main thing. Of course, it helps to have a plot and it’s a great advantage to have a bit of talent, but neither of those things will do you any good unless you’ve got the persistence to actually do it. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And even now, do you still have a routine? What would a typical writing day look like for you? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, I write every day except Sunday. I wrote this morning. I went to see my doctor. I came home. I wrote, had a cup of tea. Did some work around the house. Practised on my music a bit. And then had my lunch and then came and did this. But every day, without fail, I write except on a Sunday. Jenny Wheeler: And do you use a laptop? Kerry McGinnis: No, I’ve a desktop Mac. Kerry McGinness is an life long book lover Jenny Wheeler: And when you said practice your music, what music do you play? Kerry McGinnis: Oh, in my old age, I’m learning to play the harp. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, beautiful. So, we always like to ask our guests about their reading tastes. This is very much a podcast for people who are keen readers. We might even say voracious readers. What do you like to read? And are you, or have you ever been a binge reader as such? Kerry McGinnis: I suppose so. I collect books. I have a huge collection of books and I like to get everything that my favourite author of the moment has ever written. I’ve got shelves and shelves of things like Kate Morton and Robert Galbraith and Jodie Picoult and, oh, it goes on and on. Reginald Hill, Linwood Barclay. Robin Hobb. I love Robin Hobb’s books. And I’ve recently discovered Rebecca Yarros. I used to be very fond of Mary Stewart, but the wretched woman went and died on me when she was in her 80s, so that was a bit unfortunate. I always feel a good writer should be given an extra 20 years, as long as she agrees to keep writing, Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s wonderful. Kerry McGinnis: There’s so many disappointed people when she stops. Yes, I read everything. I read poetry. I love Shakespeare’s sonnets. I read his plays, but I cannot be happy unless I’ve got a book waiting to be read and one that I am currently reading. I read all the time. It’s very anti social, but I live alone and I can read during my meals and in the evening and, instead of watching TV and stuff like that, I tend to read. In the Penguin nest for her whole career Jenny Wheeler: And you still read paper books not digitally. Kerry McGinnis: Oh no, give me a book I can hold any day. I spend a part of every day on the computer. I don’t need any more screen time. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your creative career that you’d change, what would it be? There may not be anything. It’s just, if anything came to mind. Yeah. Kerry McGinnis: No, I really can’t think of anything. I just blunder along from this to that book after book. And as long as I can keep writing them, I’m quite happy about it. I don’t spend much time. I want to save. Once they’re published, I’m sort of all focused on the next one. so sometimes I even have to go back and read a book if I know I’m going to be interviewed about a thing and think I’d better find out what it’s about, because I’ll have forgotten, not forgotten the book, but forgotten the details, the characters names and things like that. Jenny Wheeler: And how long does it take you to write one? What’s your publishing schedule like? Kerry McGinnis: I do one every year at the moment. And while in the height of the COVID, I did two because, the library was closed. That was a disaster. The gym was closed. That wasn’t far behind it. The my local book group wasn’t meeting anymore. I couldn’t see friends. So I wrote two books to make up for it, just something to do. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve been faithful to Penguin all through your career? Kerry McGinnis: That’s true. They took me on. So, it seems just, proper that I stick with them. Jenny Wheeler: And it’s a prestigious mark to have even today, isn’t it? Kerry McGinnis: Yes, everybody knows Penguin, even if they are now Penguin Random House, but everybody knows the little bird in the orange cover. Writing is a daily habit for Kerry McGinnis Jenny Wheeler: So how far ahead would you write Bloodwood Creek? I guess you finished that 12 months ago, did you, or eight months ago anyway? Kerry McGinnis: Yes, I have since finished another one, which is now with Penguin, and I’ve started on a third, which is up to chapter six. Jenny Wheeler: And I know it’s a kind of hackneyed question, but people love to know. We know about Adelaide, the Adelaide Creeks River Cemetery, but where do you get your ideas from? Have you got a notebook there of ideas still ready to work on? Kerry McGinnis: No, not really. They just seem to come. As I say, I get the setting and the people and think of a problem and some way of resolving it and it just seems to flow from that. I know, I was told once by an editor that I should sit down and make a plan and write it all out in chapters, what’s going to happen next and how this will work and how that’ll work. And I thought about it and I thought, no, that’s not me, I can’t do that. And admittedly, the way I write, if I change my mind, it means a lot of rewriting, but that’s all right, because I do it as I go. If I’ve decided that she’s not going to live here, she’s going to live there, or something like that, I just go back at that point and change it all the way through. And it’s also another way of editing as you go and picking up mistakes. That saves you doing it at the end when you’re in a, might be in a hurry and might miss them because you’re just worn out from reading all these words over and over again. I like to do it as I go. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Yeah. What’s next for Kerry as author? What have you got on your desk over the next 12 months? Kerry McGinnis: I will finish this one that I’m working on now. And then I have two more one was a kid’s book that I wrote years ago. And never went anywhere with, so it needs rewriting. And another one is an idea for a fantasy novel that’s just an idea at the moment. That I’ll, one of these days I’ll finish. I keep thinking, I thought I’d do it this year, but then I got this other idea for the book that I’m writing on now. And I thought, oh I’ll just wait. I’ve got an arrangement with the Almighty that I can’t die until I finish all the plans I’ve made. Or at least… I hope I’ve got that arrangement with him. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Kerry McGinnis: Yeah. Jenny Wheeler: The fantasy novel is that also set in rural Australia. Kerry McGinnis: Oh, no. No, I wrote a trilogy. Mainly during the during the COVID lockdowns. And it’s an imaginary country and with all the fantasy things. It’s saving the throne, saving the country, defeating the enemy. doing away with all the baddies. And it ran into three books but Penguin wasn’t interested in them because they said it’s not the sort of genre you write and I suppose having invested so much in my books. They don’t want me to switch horses in midstream, so I sent the first one to England, and the other two I published myself. I had self published friends who had a desktop publishing thing, and they did it. So this would follow on from there. It’s not part of the trilogy, but if it ever gets done, it’s going to be set in the same country. Jenny Wheeler: And did you write that under your name? Kerry Kerry McGinnis: Yep. Yeah, no point. Trying to hide who you are. I wrote it. I’ll stand by it. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. Yeah. It’s just that they do say that Penguin’s quite right, that you get a following of people who like certain sorts of books and they often don’t follow an author across if they do something radically different. And fantasy is definitely a acquired taste. You either love it or don’t. Kerry McGinnis: And there’s millions of fantasy books out there, just millions of them. Jenny Wheeler: but let us know what they’re called in case people are interested in following them up. The fantasy trilogy Kerry McGinnis: Oh, the first one is called Far Seeker Jenny Wheeler: Far seeker. F a r? Kerry McGinnis: S EE K E R. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Kerry McGinnis: And the next one is called The Burning Mountain, Jenny Wheeler: Yep. Kerry McGinnis: and the last one is called The Crow Road. Jenny Wheeler: And so you self-published two of them. What happened to the first? Kerry McGinnis: The first one I sent off to oh, I can’t think what they’re called now. In England Jenny Wheeler: Something like Sourcebooks or one of those? Kerry McGinnis: in the UK. Yeah, I can’t remember which one it was. Which was a mistake because I found out that they the British publishers don’t freight their books around the world. If you go to an American publisher, apparently they do some of them anyway. Which means, you have to get it off the internet if you’re in Australia. You won’t find it in Australia. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. No, but people are used to buying on the internet these Kerry McGinnis: That’s true. These days it doesn’t matter so much, but it would have been a big blow back before the internet, because the only way you would have got it was to know somebody in Britain or to go there yourself. Jenny Wheeler: That’s right. Kerry McGinnis: And that seems a long way, even for me, to go for a book. Where to find Kerry – probably not online Jenny Wheeler: Now Kerry do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you Online? Kerry McGinnis: I actually can’t, because I don’t do much online stuff. I’m absolutely useless with a computer, except for… Writing on it and getting emails when you saw how much trouble I had getting on to a zoom meeting. So no, I’m afraid I don’t have a blog page or anything like that, but they can always write to me if they want to. People used to before the internet came into being. Jenny Wheeler: And do you do book tours these days? Kerry McGinnis: I’ve cut down on them. The publishing houses have cut down on them drastically. But I do interviews and things like that and I had a book launch in the library for Bloodwood Creek and the local library, that sort of thing. Talk on the ABC Book Hour and things like that. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. Look, that’s lovely. And you can always be contacted through your publisher too, if they, if you’re really keen to get hold of you. Kerry McGinnis: That’s absolutely correct, Jenny Wheeler: Look, it’s been wonderful talking. Thank you. You’ve had a remarkable life and I think it’s fantastic the way that you’ve continued on how many books have you got published now, 12 or 13 or? Kerry McGinnis: I think I’ve got, I think I might have 15. I’m not quite sure with Penguin and the other three that the fantasy ones. Titles that inspire images in the mind Jenny Wheeler: Yeah. Actually, I don’t think I was including the memoirs in that. So yeah, that’s a remarkable achievement and I love the names. the names tell you exactly what you can expect from the story. Croc Country, The Roadhouse, Mallee Sky, Out of Alice, Wild Horse Creek. They just summon up images, even the titles do. So has the next one coming got a title yet? Kerry McGinnis: No, not yet. The title that I had on it, the publisher didn’t like much, every so often they title a book. Fair enough, they’ve got to sell it. the book, the cover and the title has to say, pick me up and read me. And I’m not particularly good at titles. I leave it to them. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Look, thank you so much for your time today, Kerry. It’s been a pleasure to talk. Kerry McGinnis: Thank you, Jenny. It’s been lovely to meet you. If you enjoyed Kerry you might also enjoy… Adrian Hyland’s Aussie rural noir…. Adrian Hyland is an award-winning Australian author of twisty crime stories that are perfect for the fans of Jane Harper, The Dry and Chris Hammer’s Scrublands. Adrian latest book, Canticle Creek combines complex and engaging characters, heart racing plot lines, and whip smart writing that captures the spirit and natural landscape of the Australian Heartland. LISTEN TO ADRIAN HYLAND Next Week on Binge Reading – Romantic Suspense at its Best Sharon Sala one of the most successful romantic suspense and contemporary sweet romance authors writing today, with over 100 books published, a rollcall of awards and a legion of fans who follow her every book.  She discusses her latest suspense series, secrets and Shadows and the importance of her Native American heritage.. That’s next week on Binge Reading. And remember – if you enjoy the show. Leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time, and Happy Reading!

Adrienne Chinn’s Three Sisters, Great War series offers readers an epic sweeping historical saga, perfect for fans of Lucinda Riley, and we’ve got The Paris Sister, Book #2, of this evocative saga, featured on the show today.  Hi there. I’m your host Jenny Wheeler. And on this week’s show Adrienne follows the Fry sisters as they enter the Roaring Twenties, forever changed by their experiences during the devastating years of war. Bound by love, but separated by distance, their lives unfold in different corners of the globe, as they come to realize that the most important bond of all is family. This week’s Book Giveaway Our Giveaway this week is Historic Fiction Freebies in August offering some lovely books. They’re free to download, including Sadie’s Vow Book #1 in my own Home At Last series. HISTORIC FREEBIES – AUGUST Get your selection of historic novels free to download. historic freebies download ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/historicalfictionfreebiesaugust2023/dm9y0sujx9​ ENJOY BOOKS EVERYWHERE AUDIO SALE We have an Audio Book Sale, Enjoy Books Everywhere, with a fantastic range of entertaining fiction, including Poisoned Legacy, Book #1 in my Of Gold & Blood series available at special sale prices, or a limited time. AUDIO BOOK SALE Sales Special on Audio books for a limited time! ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/audioeverywhereaug2023/kgr0xzcoio I mentioned too, that my latest mystery romance Rosie’s Rebellion Book #3in the Home At Last series is on pre-order at a special launch price of 99 cents for two weeks from August 16. Order online at your favorite e-book store this week. And remember, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links to items mentioned in this episode Syrie Maugham: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrie_Maugham The background to The Lost Letter, Adrienne’s first novel: Amazighs Culture: https://minorityrights.org/minorities/berbers/#:~:text=Amazighs% What Adrienne is reading now: Sarah Waters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Waters Lawrence Osborne: https://www.lawrenceosborne.net/ Isabella Allende: https://www.isabelallende.com/en Aala Al Aswany: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaa_Al_Aswany Elif Safak: https://www.elifsafak.com.tr/home Stacey Halls. www.staceyhalls.com Where to find Adrienne Chinn online Website: https://www.adrienne-chinn.co.uk/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/adriennechinnauthor Introducing Adrienne Chinn best selling author Adrienne Chinn, interior decorator and best selling novelist Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Adrienne. Welcome to the show, Adrienne. It’s great to have you with us. Adrienne Chinn: Thank you so much, Jenny. I’m delighted to be here. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve made a name for yourself as the author of beautifully crafted historical fiction. Not to say that it doesn’t have a lot of action as well, but you’re very much known for the beauty of your locations, the sensory detail. And that’s often more associated with standalone books and you have done some standalones, but you’re now engaged in this series, with Book #2 recently published. Tell us, how did you translate from doing standalones to your Fry Sisters project? Adrienne Chinn: It has been a learning curve for me, I have to say, but I’ve always been really fascinated about women’s development and women’s lives from the first 20th century. I felt that required more than one book to do it properly. I was very much inspired by some of the stories of my great aunts, and my grandmother. I decided to develop a series of four books starting in 1913 and covering the First World War in the first book, Love in a Time of War. And then the second book, as you said, which has just come out, The Paris Sister, set in the 1920s. I’ve just finished the third book which will be set in the 1930s. And then there will be one final book set during the Second World War. Through all of this, we follow the lives of three English sisters and their mother, and see how their lives very much change. They’re all in different, and they find themselves in different parts of the world. And it was a chance for me to also explore what was happening in the world at that time. So much changed at the 20th century, and I found that fascinating to look into. Real life parallels with the Fry sisters series Jenny Wheeler: And there are quite a few real life parallels between your characters the three sisters, and your aunts as well, I believe. One of the sisters, for example, is a nurse on a hospital ship off Gallipoli, and one of your aunts was a nurse doing that job. Is that right? Adrienne Chinn: That’s right. It was one of my great aunts. She was the sister of my grandfather. And I have an old photograph of her in her nurse’s uniform, sewing in a tent in Egypt. I didn’t know much about her, or her sister, or the other people that inspired the characters. But I was so inspired by that image, that I felt that one of my characters had to become a nurse who found herself in Egypt and nursing through Gallipoli and then in Egypt during the First World War. I ended up doing a lot of research about that and found out about the organization she was nursing for so I was finding a bit about my roots while I was also researching the book, which was quite fun. Jenny Wheeler: The sisters are scattered over a wide field geographically. One of them ends up living in Alberta, Canada, and that also has roots in real life. Adrienne Chinn: That’s right. My grandmother and my grandfather ended up in Canada. They were both from Britain. My grandfather was very fortunate to survive being in the British infantry from 1914 to 1918. He did have mustard gas and shrapnel wounds and all the rest of it, but he managed to survive. And once it was over, he had a young wife and at the time, extremely young children. My father was a newborn. He was born in 1920. And grandfather decided he’d had enough of Europe, he’d seen enough. He didn’t want any more to do with it. Grandfather headed for Canada He took part in a soldier’s land settlement. whereby he was offered the chance to have some virgin land given to him in either Australia, New Zealand South Africa or Canada. He applied for all of them, and he got to Canada first. He up sticks with his family and went off to Canada to become a farmer, which he’d never done before, and he had limited success at it, shall I say.? He had been an auctioneer for his father’s company in Britain before the war. Jenny Wheeler: So that also parallels your character in the story who is the son of an auctioneer. So that’s interesting too. And with the third sister, of course, you have the chance to introduce some wonderful real life characters because she goes to Paris in the 1920s and she meets people like Ernest Hemingway and Zelda Fitzgerald. That always presents the challenge of balancing fact and fiction and I wonder how do you keep that seesaw going between your own creative ideas and what you know really happened. Adrienne Chinn: I read a lot. I particularly liked the character of Zelda Fitzgerald, who I find fascinating and I read a lot about the Fitzgeralds. And I was inspired to bring her forward as a character rather than have Scott Fitzgerald being center stage. I read a lot, and I ,made sure that when I placed them in Paris, the real people had been in Paris. When I mentioned her visiting Capri, Scott and she were in Capri. So I was very careful to make sure that I always placed real characters where they were in real life. I didn’t just suddenly plonk them there just because I wanted them there. I did that because my undergraduate degree was in English and history and I love history. Weaving in true facts with creative license I really tried to weave through the basic information about these characters and I thought if Scott and Zelda were in Paris during the opening of the Art Deco Fair in 1925, they probably went, so let’s make them go to the opening party. That’s where I took creative license, because we have no evidence they went there, but I thought it’s not outside the realms of possibility that they would have gone. And, of course, the Fitzgeralds and the Hemingways knew each other in Paris, so I was always very careful, once again, when I had the Hemingways show up, occasionally, it was when they were in Paris, in real life. I do try to be careful with things like that., I have an episode of The Paris Sister where Etta goes into the Shakespeare bookstore in Paris and she bumps into Hemingway, who is at the time speaking to the owner Sylvia Beach That incident, him going in there and borrowing books from Sylvia Beach and using certain types of notebooks for his notes, that’s all from research I did. And those were books that she actually told him to borrow. I did try to really be careful about making things real when I brought in the real characters. I enjoyed doing that, though I found it a little bit of a challenge. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I love the way you also mentioned Ernest Hemingway’s wife because, before she was resurrected a little, we hardly knew she existed. Adrienne Chinn: Yes, that’s right. I mentioned her as well. But they’re all very peripheral characters in the story. Etta was in that social crowd in Paris, so she would have bumped into these people.so it was an opportunity to bring them in. Love In A Time Of War – starts in Capri Jenny Wheeler: It’s almost a trope now in historical fiction to be able to do that, isn’t it? Adrienne Chinn: Yes, exactly. Jenny Wheeler: Love in A Time of War, which is the first book in the series, you start quite masterfully right at the beginning by giving us a real clue that there’s going to be some complicated things happening in the story because it opens in Capri in the 1890s. And you have the scene of a young woman sitting on a beach sketching and being viewed from afar adoringly by a young man. And then in the very next chapter, you move on 20 or so years, a little over 20 years, and she’s married to somebody with quite a different Christian name, and she has three nearly full grown daughters. So you immediately think, Oh gosh, what happened in the last 20 years? Adrienne Chinn: Exactly. So what happened? Yes, and so that hopefully is the impetus for people to read and think what happened to a former young woman who’s now, 20 years older, she’s in her early 40s, and she’s got these three teenage daughters. And so what happened that she is now, in England with a different husband and these daughters. And very quickly, there’s an allusion to a secret that she’s got as well. Hopefully for the reader to be interested enough to read, to find out what’s going on in her life. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} How Adrienne Chinn tackles plot building Jenny Wheeler: And that thread weaves through the story so that even in The Paris Sister, it’s very strong and it hasn’t been completed. It’s obviously going to be carrying into the third book as well. Now, tell me. when you do that kind of thing how do you write that in terms of your own process? Do you do a lot of outlining? How do you approach that? Adrienne Chinn: I had to in this book. It was very different from, let’s say, The English Wife which I wrote previous to this. It was a time slip book, where part of it was set in England in during World War II, and part of it was in contemporary Newfoundland at the turn of this past century. And the second half of that book. I didn’t have to do a whole lot of research. I’m a Newfoundlander. I went back to Newfoundland, drove around, and it was a lot about making that part of the story up. But I did do the research about the parts of England that the character was in the first part of the book. That was quite easy because it was one place, that character was only in certain areas of England at any given time, so I only really needed to research. those aspects of World War II. Whereas in the series, I like to make things complicated by having several characters who end up in different places, with a lot going on in the world at that time. I had to plot it in a way that I’d never had to plot before. And my process is I start with the characters, because they’re the ones who, for me, drive the story. A best selling novelist’s working process And I create a really detailed character file online. I have a file. And I drop in pictures of actors or actresses or interesting faces online that I put with each character, and I write a little paragraph about each character. What their full names are, what their birthdates are what they look like, where they went to school, what they like to eat, do they do sport, do they do art? I try to, in my mind, create this picture of this character, and I do that for all of the main and the secondary characters. So this document is hefty, but I enjoy that. By doing that, I start understanding the people in my story. And then I do another document where I take the pictures I’ve created of these different people and I pop them into little maps in a way where I say okay, who are the family members? And I’ll drop in all the photographs of people who are in a family. Who is having relationships with whom? And I’ll put those pictures together. Who is the nemesis of whom? And I’ll put those pictures. So I start understanding, those relationships. So at once I’ve done all of that, then I go to plot out the story. First I really have to get a handle on my characters and then I plot out the story. And for these characters, I had to plot out each story separately and then weave them together when they come together or write letters. I plotted out Etta’s story, then Jesse’s, then Celie’s, and the mother’s, of course, Knitting a novel together – Adrienne Chinn Then I color coded them and created little chapter files, or documents, where I’d say chapter one, and I’d say Etta, and I would have that in pink, or whatever color Etta’s was, and I would just then write a line or two about what has to happen in that chapter. Then chapter two might be green, Jesse. And then I write a line or two about what’s happening in that chapter. And all that way through, I did through that however many chapters, 60 something chapters. And I made sure there was a balance of the characters through the book. I wasn’t spending too much time on one character and ignoring another. I call it knitting a novel. It’s taking these pieces of wool and pulling them through together. That’s what I did, and it did take quite a bit of plotting because of these characters in different places, Jenny Wheeler: Because you now have four books, how far ahead did you do that plotting? Did you do an outline for each book before you even started Adrienne Chinn: No, I do one book at a time. I don’t know yet what’s going to happen in Book Four of the series. I just know who’s in it. And I know my characters really well, I know where I want to go with the story, but I don’t know exactly how it’s going to transpire, which is good because it leaves it interesting for me. And the characters, especially when you’ve been working with them for so long, really become real. And they really have personalities of their own and you find you can’t put them in certain situations. because they wouldn’t find themselves in those situations. Or if you do put them in a strange situation, you have to really honor how they would respond to that, instead of just trying to manipulate them to do what you want them to do. Research during pandemic lockdown So they do step forward and tell you ‘no. No, that’s not going to work.’ Or, they really, I think it’s a little bit schizophrenic, but they do become very real which I find fascinating. And these books have really brought my great aunts and my grandmother alive for me too, in a strange way. I’ve come to understand the women of that time much better. Jenny Wheeler: Now we’ve mentioned that you are really known for your rich descriptive narrative. And I do get the feeling that some of these places, anyway you obviously will have visited, but you began writing the series in the middle of the pandemic lockdown. Adrienne Chinn: Yes. Jenny Wheeler: How did that all balance out? Adrienne Chinn: That’s a good question. Love in A Time of War was written in 2020 when I was stuck at home, basically. And as you mentioned, it starts in Capri, where I have been very fortunate to visit in the past/ About six years ago, quite a long time ago, so I had my photographs that I’d taken at the time, and I remember at the time, and I’d only been there a weekend, I hadn’t been there very long, but I thought it was a beautiful island, and I did walk around it quite a lot so I thought, oh, what an interesting place. I loved the idea of the story of the Sirens which comes from that island too, and I liked weaving that into the sisters being Italian sirens. The wonders of tourist pix on YouTube So I had the pictures and then YouTube is fantastic because I found tourists videos of them walking through areas of Capri. I’m going, oh great. So that street goes down and oh, and that one heads to the sea and the sea is on the left when they go down. I was watching them walk through Capri and I was going, okay yes, that’s fantastic. Oh, that street is a cobblestone street. Wonderful. Great. And I found a lot of photographs of old Capri and did a lot of research. There are certain tourists “highlights” of Capri that weren’t there in 1890 so I had to be careful not to weave them into the background when they hadn’t been constructed at that time. I did a lot of online research for that, but also I remembered certain elements of it. The scent of the rosemary, and the scent of the lemons, and how big the lemons were, and things like that, that I could use. In Egypt, where Jesse is, I have been to Cairo. So I had a little bit of the feeling of that. But again, I haven’t been to Alexandria and some other places. I had to do a lot of online research about how they looked and, Google Maps and street maps and postcards and all sorts of things London’s easy because I’m here. So that’s fine. And Canada? Alberta in book two? I haven’t been to that part of Alberta, so I had to do a lot of research, but I have a sister who’s out that way. I could pick her brains quite a bit about locale and all the rest. So yes, it’s pulling in information wherever you can find it and trying to be creative as much as you can while honoring the actual geography of the areas. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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And I wondered how the two melded together. Tell us a little bit about how you got into your fictional writing, when you obviously have a strong draw towards the decorative arts as well. Adrienne Chinn: I’d actually always wanted to write fiction I was always fascinated with books. My mother said my very first word was ‘book.’ I remember I used to call milk book. I used to call the milkman bookman. I was always pulling books off the shelves. I remember that as a very young child. I was fascinated and I read voraciously. Growing up, everything I could get my hands on. I loved finding myself in these fictional worlds and escaping into these worlds.  I always wanted to do it myself. And I did an English and history degree at university, and my first job was in trade magazines in Canada. I was in that writing world. And then I decided at a point to relocate to Britain. And when I came over, I couldn’t find any writing related jobs, and I found myself plopped into the television industry for a bit, finding contestants for quiz shows and things like that. And after a while I decided to find something I could do where I could be creative. And I’d always been interested in architecture and design as well. That’s just another thing. I always have all these house design magazines with me all the time. So. I decided to train for a year as an interior designer and I thought that would be a way I could be creative in one aspect, but without clouding my writing side. That’s one thing I didn’t like about working in magazines. I found that clouded my creative writing. Sirie Maugham, 1920s decorator I wanted a career which didn’t have anything to do with writing, but was creative. And so that led me into interior design which I’m still involved in, teaching short courses in Britain and in China as well. I still have my hand in that pot. Jenny Wheeler: And it does come out in your writing as well, because you have a real sense in your houses of various objects of furniture or wall coverings. You have a famous decorator and the way that she put cement along the edges of her curtains… Adrienne Chinn: Yes, and that’s true. That’s true. She did do that. All those little details are absolutely true. This is the thing about research, which I find so fascinating and great. It’s like you find these funny little anecdotes and I found this one of Sirie Maugham, who was a top interior decorator in London in the 20s, and she would dip her curtains into concrete to make them stiff, so that they’d stand the way she’d want them to stand. And I thought, oh, I got to use that. That is fantastic. But I guess I’m extremely visual and that follows on with my interior design work. And I really creating worlds that you can you can go, “Yes, I can visualize this.” I can see it, and I know where the windows are. I know what the furniture is like. I know where the sunlight is coming through. I like people to be able to have a sense of the space there in when they’re reading because I like to do that. How Adrienne got herself writing Jenny Wheeler: And were you quietly writing away yourself all these years? Or did you have a kind of epiphany at one stage? And think ‘I really must get serious about my writing.’ How did that happen? Adrienne Chinn: Yes, I would say the second, because as I said, I did some journalism work in Canada, I worked at TV for four years in Britain, something totally different, and then I trained as an interior designer and just really did that for a long time. And that was all consuming. But this little niggle in the back of my head was there this whole time. I did write a novel, oh gosh, about 15 years before my first novel was published. Just to see if I could, just because, can I actually do this. I did write one which is the one that’s in the drawer gathering dust and we’ll probably never see the light of day but it was just a little thing for me to go “yes. I still want to do this. Yes, I think I can do this. Yes, I think this isn’t the one that will be the one, “ But I felt encouraged by that. But nothing changed on the writing side until, oh gosh, 2010. I had my birthday in December in 2010 and it was one of those significant birthdays and I just thought, you know what? What I really want to do, I’m still doing interior design, but I really want to get serious about the writing because it’s a now or never as far as I was concerned. I applied to take part in the Faber Academy writing a novel course in London, which is a really well respected part time course. And I started in January and went through to June. It was one night a week and every second Saturday for that period of time. Facing up to over 300 rejections And you had to do a lot of writing in it, and that’s where I started writing my first novel. From that point on, I was writing. I spent about eight years writing that first novel, writing it over and over again, and getting over 300 rejections. So if anybody’s listening, thinking like, oh, no one’s going to want my novel. I had over 300 rejections for my first novel and I rewrote it about eight times. And when I say rejections, I had rejections from the United States, Canada, Australia, London, you name it. Probably every English language agent in the world rejected that novel. But I just felt, I was determined that some door was going to open. I was just so determined. There was a year in that period where I just stopped altogether because I was so frustrated. But then I was out for dinner with some of the other aspiring writers that I’d been on the Faber course one night. And one of them had on her second book for two book deal that she got with Harper Collins and she was doing crime writing. And she said, Adrianne, I really love your writing. And she said, I know you’re frustrated about it, getting it anywhere. She said, forget about the agents, just send it to my editor and I’ll tell her to read it. And then? The breakthrough… So that’s how I got my first deal. I sent it to her editor, who passed it to another editor at Avon Books at Harper Collins in London. And about six months later I was standing on the train platform in Clapton Junction, going south, where I was living in Britain. And it was a Friday afternoon, and I’d been doing some interior design work, and I’m looking at my phone, and it dings, and I look at it, and there’s something from Avon Books. I’ve had so many emails like this through past, from eight years. “Dear Adrienne, thank you very much for your submission. Apologies for taking so long to get back as you can understand, there are many very good submissions that we need to take time to look at.” And I was thinking, I was scrolling on my phone going, “yeah, here we go again. Here’s another, it’s going to be another. Thank you for nothing.” But then it said, “we all read the book and we all loved it. And we’d like to offer you a two book deal.” And I just couldn’t believe it after all this time. After all this time and I got it. I haven’t stopped since then. So I got a two book deal. And from that I got the four book deal for the series and I’ve got another book to write as well. Another deal as well after these books so it’s been constant since then. It’s just really, if you really believe it, you really believe it’s your thing, then it’s your thing. Determined to succeed But you’ve got to understand that it might take a lot of effort before somebody opens the door. But somebody will, if you keep working at it. If somebody will, I had every reason to quit, but I just refused. I said it’s going to happen. It’s just going to happen. I’m not going to let it not happen, Jenny Wheeler: I’m sure that a lot of would-be writers out there would take a lot of encouragement from that. Now, that debut novel was one called The Lost Letter, and it was also a dual timeline novel, like you’ve mentioned The English Wife was. That one was set partly in Morocco and I think you, you have an affection for Morocco as well, don’t you? Adrienne Chinn: Yes, I do. I’ve been visiting Morocco, gosh, pretty regularly since 2007. And in fact, I had a relationship with Amazigh man there in the Atlas Mountains for many years. And so ,I got to know Morocco really well and was involved in the Amazigh culture. Amazigh or also Berber, another word for that culture. And I had to write about it. And I just felt, yes, this is going to be in my first book, have to write about it. I really felt I could bring something to the table with that because I had been so immersed in life in Morocco for quite a few years. That’s what I did. And I wrote the novel and it was my first, so it will always be very special to me. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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fascinating fragment that you’ve got poems going to the moon. Tell us about that. Adrienne Chinn: Yes, that’s true, yes. A very good friend of mine, a Newfoundland writer named Caroline McPherson who we met online through our mutual interest, and then I was visiting Newfoundland to research The English wife, and I got in touch with Caroline because she was involved in doing podcasts in Newfoundland. She was going to do a podcast with me about The Lost Letter. I went and saw her, and we got on like a house on fire. Carolyn is an award winning Canadian novelist I think her work’s fantastic, and she got involved in this this program for novelists being invited to put their some of their work on into this time capsule that was going on to one of the supply capsules that was sent to, being sent to the moon. She invited me to tag along basically in her time capsule. I sent her some poems, which she put in her allotment on the capsule and yes, I’m freeloading my way to the moon on a Peregrine missile, which is going to be going up later this year or early next year. And this is going to be buried on the moon. I’ll be able to look up at the moon at some point and go, “Ah, my poems are up on the moon.” Haiku and Tanka to improve descriptive prose Jenny Wheeler: So, you do write poetry. Have you published poetry? Adrienne Chinn: I’ve self published some poetry. I’m not really a poet with a capital P at all. I admire poets. I like writing haiku and tanka. Those are the two things I really like. And I started writing them to really sharpen my descriptive prose. Because you have to create a world in three sentences or five sentences. In a just a certain number of syllables. It’s like a very strict format and I found that really interesting to hone in on an image or a thought or an idea in such a limited form. I found it bizarrely freeing. That’s really the only type of poetry I seem to be any good at. Tanka is just the five lines rather than the three lines in Haiku. I wrote a lot of them during the lockdown. I was writing certainly one or two a day, putting them on my Facebook and Instagram and getting a lot of really good feedback from lots of people. I thought I’ll just put the collection of them into these three short books that I’ve put on Amazon. Yes, I’ve just self published those. But I just really do enjoy writing those. So that, that’s the extent of my poetry, though, I have to say. It’s so interesting. I had one little haiku that was something along the lines of “look up at the moon and you will find me there.” Or something like that. I can’t remember exactly. And I wrote that. like two years before this and it’s going to come true. It’s so strange. You’ll be able to look up at the moon at some day and you will find me there. I thought that’s quite prescient of me to have written that. What Adrienne Chinn is reading now Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. That’s just great. We always like to ask our guests about their reading habits. This is the joys of binge reading, and we generally focus on books that are fun and entertaining and escapist as well. Your books are very much escapist in the sense of taking us to other worlds. Tell us a bit about your personal preferences and tastes in reading. Adrienne Chinn: Gosh, I have really eclectic tastes, I have to say. I’m sitting in my study here right now and I’ve got lots of bookshelves and Isabella Allende,.I read a lot of her work. I’m looking Lawrence Osborne, I don’t know if you’ve read any of him, he’s a really terrific writer, He’s called the Modern Graham Greene, and I met him, I love his books. What else? Sarah Waters, and of course fantastic English writer, Stacey Hulls, I’ve got all the classics up there, I’m just looking at Jane Austen and all the rest of it. The miniaturist, but then I also have books by foreign writers. I’ve got one called The Automobile Club of Egypt by Alaa Al Aswany, which I’ve read, which I’ve enjoyed. Elif Safak, I read a lot of hers.   I just like reading lots of different things. I have to say, I don’t read a lot of fiction when I’m right in the middle of writing, because I’ve got the characters so much in my head that when I’m writing I tend to read more biographies and autobiographies and stuff like that. And so my fiction reading is in the periods between writing. What Adrienne’s next 12 months looks like Jenny Wheeler: Give us an idea of what’s next for you in the next 12 months with your writing. What have you got on your desk and what are you looking forward to? Adrienne Chinn: That’s a good question. I’ve just today finished the line edits, for the third book in the Fry Sister series, it still hasn’t got a title. So watch this space. But I sent them off to my editor today. That’s pretty much done. There will be one more final editing, copy edit sent my way, but most of the editing is done on now. That is pretty much wrapped up as far as I’m concerned. Now I have another book to start planning and researching. This is a little break before the fourth book in the crisis series. I’m writing a standalone tutor time slip novel next and which is yes, I’ve got to deliver by May 1st next year. That will be, the thing I’m working on over the next number of months and after that I’ll be getting into the fourth book of the Fry Sisters series. That’s my writing schedule for the next two years really. After that, we’ll see. I don’t know yet, but we’ll figure something out. I’m looking forward to just doing a standalone novel and going into the Tudor period. It will require research and a whole different way of thinking because I’ve been so into the 20th century with these Fry sisters books. It’s a palate cleanser, let’s say, and then I’m back to, finish the series. That’s the plan. Jenny Wheeler: When you say Tudor time slip, is it Tudor to contemporary Adrienne Chinn: Tudor to Contemporary. There’ll be two strands interwoven. There will be a Tudor strand and a Contemporary strand. Yes. Jenny Wheeler: And in your academic work, did you study the Tudors to any extent? Adrienne Chinn: YesI did all of that history. Where to find Adrienne Chinn online Jenny Wheeler: Great. Adrienne Chinn: I did. I’m a history nerd. I enjoy reading history, even not as a course. Chinese history, Russian history, American history, Canadian history, European history, you name it, I’ve read it. I find it really interesting. I find history interesting from the people aspect. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. Now, obviously, final question of the show: do you like meeting your readers or interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Adrienne Chinn: Oh, absolutely! I absolutely love it when readers, send me an email or find me on Facebook or Instagram yes, so people can find me, I’m Adrienne Chinn, I’m on Instagram, I’m on Adrienne Chin Author on Facebook. My email, you can drop me an email, it’s [email protected]. I love to hear from readers. If I’m traveling anywhere, I have a website as well where I post if I’m traveling anywhere. And I’m hoping next year to run a writing retreat in Marrakesh. That will be on the website. I managed to get that sorted out. Yes, so absolutely love, love to meet readers. CHINN with a double “N” Jenny Wheeler: We would like to just add that it’s CHINN with a double N, isn’t it? Adrienne Chinn: That’s right, yes. Double N. Yeah. Jenny Wheeler: And we’ll put all of those links in the show notes that go out with this episode so that people will be able to find you easily. But thank you so much, Adrian. It’s been wonderful talking. Adrienne Chinn: You’re very welcome, Jenny. It’s been a real delight. Thank you so much for inviting me. Jenny Wheeler: You’re very welcome. Adrienne Chinn: Wonderful. Thanks, Jenny. Okay. Have a lovely day. Jenny Wheeler: Thank you. Bye. If you enjoyed Adrienne, you might also enjoy… Jill Santopolo Jill Santopolo is an international best-selling author who writes sweeping love stories about decisions, regrets, second chances and how families influence the choices we make. Her fourth novel, Stars in an Italian Sky moves from World War II in Italy, to today’s New York in a tender-hearted family saga. LISTEN TO JILL ON BINGE READING Next week on Binge Reading… Next Week On Binge Reading: Best selling Penguin, Australia, author Kerry McGinnis, and her latest evocative crime thriller. Bloodwood Creek. Kerry is famous for making the remote heartland of Australia come alive and her Outback mysteries with immersive landscapes as memorable as the colorful characters in her stories. In this one, Bloodwood Greek, Emily goes searching for her missing cousin and soon finds she’s on the track of something far more serious than a party girl seeking desert dancers. That’s next week on The Joys Of Binge Reading. And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review. So others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best form of recommendation and people will find great books they like to read, if they tune in. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy Reading.

On Binge Reading today, USA Today bestselling author A.W. Hartoin talks about her World War II, Stella Bled spy thriller series, and the young American honeymooner who becomes a double agent, trapped into working for both Germany and England. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and on Binge Reading today, A.W. talks about the sixth book in the series, Her London Season. It’s 1940 and the Battle of Britain rages in the skies overhead. Stella is stuck, frustrated, in a lowly administrative job at the Special Operations Executive, the SOE. Until a mysterious set of orders arrives. A.W. talks about crafting a story that challenges all the assumptions you may make about truth and power. Our Book Giveaway this week Our Giveaway this week is another Kobo Free Genre offer, a wonderful range of books from several genres – mystery, thriller  and romance, and all of them First in Series, including Poisoned Legacy, my Book #1 in the Of Gold & Blood series. Find the download link in the show notes for this episode on The Joys of Binge Reading website, that’s www.thejoysofbinge reading.com. FREE KOBO GENRE LIST BOOKS ​https://www.kobo.com/nz/en/p/free-ebooks​​Kob​​o And remember. If you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will definitely want to read. Links to subjects mentioned in today’s episode Kristallnacht: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/kristallnacht (*See Editor’s note at the end of the transcript.) Kelly Rimmer, The Paris Agent, https://www.kellyrimmer.com/books/the-paris-agent Pam Jenoff, The Lost Girls of Paris, https://www.amazon.com/Lost-Girls-Paris-Pam-Jenoff/dp/0778308618 Martha Hall Kelly: Lilac Girls, https://marthahallkelly.com/books/lilac-girls/ Janet Evanovich:  https://evanovich.com/ Jana DeLeon:  https://janadeleon.com/ Brian Cann, photographer:  https://brian-cann.format.com/about Laser guided bomb systems:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laser-guided_bomb The House Witch by Delemhach   https://www.amazon.com.au/House-Witch-Humorous-Romantic-Fantasy/dp/1039410251 Stephen King: The Shining, https://stephenking.com/works/novel/shining.html EM Powell: Stanton and Barling series. https://www.empowell.com/stanton-and-barling-mysteries Liane Moriarty: What Alice Forgot, https://www.panmacmillan.com.au/9781743535493/ The Splendid and the Vile by Eric Larson: https://www.amazon.com/Splendid-Vile-Churchill-Family-Defiance/dp/0385348711. The Rape of Europa by Lynn K Nicholas: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/121563/the-rape-of-europa-by-lynn-h-nicholas/ Kristin Hannah The Nightingale:  https://www.amazon.com/Nightingale-Novel-Kristin-Hannah/dp/1250080401 Where to find A.W. Hartoin online Website:  https://www.awhartoin.com/ Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/A.W.Hartoin/ Introducing mystery author A. W. Hartoin A.W. Hartoin – Best Selling mystery author. Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s A.W. Hello there, A.W. and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. A.W. Hartoin: Hi Jenny. Thanks for having me. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve done a remarkably wide range of genres. You’ve done fantasy, you’ve done YA. But I think the bulk of your work has been in mystery, either Second World War, a series with Stella Bled, or a more contemporary cozy mystery series with Mercy Watts. So we’ll be focusing on those two today because most of our listeners are really interested in those mainstream genres. I wondered first what has attracted you to the mystery genre. A.W. Hartoin: I’ve always loved my mystery since I was a child, but I think it’s the puzzle pieces and how they come together, and planting little clues here and there. I’ve always loved plotting and mystery’s all about the plotting And Cozy Mystery in particular is about characters and having really interesting people in them. It’s not so gritty. Jenny Wheeler: The plotting aspect, how do you approach that? Do you have. an involved grid or do you rely more on instinct? How do you do that part? A. W. Hartoin: Intense cork board plotting A.W. Hartoin: I break out my trusty cork boards. I start putting in exactly what I want to happen in scenes and moving them around. And then when I’m doing Stella, which is also a mystery and a thriller, I put in facts. I make sure I have every fact on the board so I don’t lose a fact, and I’ll have background on there. It’s covered with note cards by the time I get done and I move things around constantly and make sure I don’t miss anything. Jenny Wheeler: To give us a picture of it, how many boards do you have and how big are they? A.W. Hartoin: I have two large boards. When I’m doing Mercy, it’s usually one board because she’s easier to plot, I don’t have a lot of historical facts to deal with. When I do Stella, I have one large board for the actual plot and then I have one board that’s every fact that I want to have covered. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Now, Stella has evolved to a six book series, with Her London Season the sixth book? You started in 1938. You’ve now got to 1940. Perhaps give us a sense of the arc of that series. A.W. Hartoin: It starts out when Stella is newly married. She’s on her honeymoon and she’s doing the Grand Tour through Europe in November 1938. And she persuades her new husband to take her to Vienna. He’s less enthused about that idea, but they end up in Vienna on the eve of the Kristallnacht and are completely shocked by the events that happen and get drawn into a series of events where she ends up being a spy for the British Intelligence Service. From politically naive to double agent Then we go from there to trying to help people in Italy. Then she’s back in England and she goes on missions to different sections of the Reich, and in London season is actually already out, and that is one where she gets involved with the SOE and the formation of the SOE and a mystery that takes completely in place in London. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Now, the first one, she starts out as being rather politically naive, doesn’t she? She hardly really understands what kind of world she’s entering. When she happily toddles off to Vienna, she’s got all these ideas about going to the opera and all that kind of thing, and gets really caught up in this heavy political stuff that’s going on. How does her political understanding evolve during this series? A.W. Hartoin: She’s completely naive at the beginning. She comes from a very wealthy brewing family. They have no interest in politics whatsoever. She’s really insulated and with her family all the time. She’s not been a person who is really interested in politics and she ends up there in Vienna and is completely shocked by how people are treated, and that the government is attacking their own citizens. The police and the firefighters do nothing to help them. And then she’s going through these things and experiencing Italy, for instance in Vienna, how the Italian population treated the Jewish population there. And she becomes involved and understands more and more. How these things came about and how she can affect the war herself. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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It was posted online this last week, and that book also deals with the SOE and the issues that arose that became very clear with the SOE after the war about the double agent aspect of the organization that they had there. The whole double agent thing, I think that Stella becomes a particularly. committed to double agent in Book Five does she? She’s working for both the Germans and the British at this stage, as a matter of self preservation. How do you handle the moral code side of that? A.W. Hartoin: I think she really does struggle with that. She doesn’t expect to have that happen. Becoming a double agent was a complete accident. No one thought that was going to happen. And then she’s in it. She’s dealing with real people. She lives and works with the people working for the Reich, and it’s painful. She becomes attached to them. And even though she would, in theory do anything to defeat the Reich, it’s very different when you’re face-to-face with someone you actually like. And when she returns from a mission, she’s very haunted by what she’s seen and done. She wouldn’t change it. But that is part of the guilt and that has been something I’ve tried to keep going, that she’s not a character who forgets what’s happened and just goes on. It stays with her. She remembers everyone. She’s haunted by what has happened to them after she’s loved them. And surprisingly, she’s very attached to people that are working for the Reich against her. And she still does what she has to do, but it’s very difficult. Balancing fact and fiction Jenny Wheeler: With the aspect of balancing fact and fiction, when you get into the SOE, for example, a lot of that history is very closely recorded now. How do you handle the fact and fiction balanced? A.W. Hartoin: Stella’s mainly an SIS asset. She is involved at the SOE also by accident. She gets involved with them in their formation. It is very difficult to deal with the SIS section because there’s not a lot written on the actual spy organization. But SOE is easier because a lot has been written and I try to get the exact facts every time. It takes a ton of research to get that done, but there has been, as you said, much written about the SOE, so that’s a lot easier than any other kind of spy operation which remains cloaked in secrecy. Jenny Wheeler: So how do you manage that and are you multilingual? Do you have to go to multiple sources or do you have people who translate for you? How do you work with that side of things? A.W. Hartoin: One thing that’s really helped is going to actual sites and being. in Paris and going to all the museums. There’s a lot of very small museums that you’ll find on the Resistance in France, for instance, where you’ll be able to find, information. It won’t be in English, so I’ll be in there with my translator. I’m not multilingual. I’ll be in there with Google Translate, pointing it at the placards and using books and trying to figure out exactly what they’re saying. But I tried it with every book, whether it’s Mercy or Stella, go to the place where it’s happening. And when you see it, and the best research books are always at the museums and I can’t get them anywhere else, you’ll find something you’ve never saw before. They’re almost always in English. Occasionally I can’t get it in English, but Google Translate is amazing and I just get so many facts that way. Travelling to do research Jenny Wheeler: How did you manage during Covid? Were you still able to travel during that period? A.W. Hartoin: I was not able to travel during that period. I wrote the Berlin book while I was in lockdown here in Germany, we could not do anything or go anywhere, Berlin is a little interesting because it was mostly destroyed, so I had to really use a lot of historical photographs and things like that I could use the grid map of Berlin itself, so I knew exactly where things were, but they don’t exist anymore. I have since gone to Berlin and explored that area, but at that time I couldn’t go. But that’s the only book I have done where I did not go before I wrote the book. Jenny Wheeler: Have you got an arc in mind that takes Stella right through the whole war? I don’t want to do any spoilers because of course, she could get killed during wartime, but how far ahead are you foreseeing with the series A.W. Hartoin: I plan to have her go through the entire war. I know what happens at the end. And the next book is in Lyon, France, and that will be prior to the Butcher of Lyon being there. Then she’ll be in Nuremberg. And then she’ll be in Prague. I’ve plotted it out pretty far. Jenny Wheeler: Going right back to the beginning, how did you get inspired to even start this? It’s like a patchwork series, or like a kaleidoscope. It is amazing the way that you fit all these aspects into it. How did you even get the idea for it? A.W’s fascination with Kristallnacht A.W. Hartoin: We were stationed in Germany for the first time in the early 2000. I had a British friend who had an intense interest in World War II history, and she gave me books to read on the history and one of them was on the Schindler’s List survivors. Their real stories behind there those people. And one of the survivors talked extensively about his experience in Kristallnacht, and I had never heard about it. I took history classes in college, and nobody ever talked about it. If it was mentioned, it was just in passing. So, I really got interested in the Kristallnacht itself and then started looking at it and thought like what a catastrophic event and what would it be like to be there as a person who has no expectation of anything like this happening? What would it be like to just have this event because it happened suddenly. It was not something that was building up like a war machine was building up. It just happened and so that’s how the Stella idea happened. An intense interest in the Kristallnacht and wanting to put someone in there that would be shocked and have no expectation at all. Jenny Wheeler: You convey that very well with Stella at the beginning. You’ve had some wonderful reviews and you’ve had some great writers that you’ve been compared to for that series. People like Pam Jenoff and her. The Lost Girls of Paris Book and Martha Hall, Kelly’s Lila Girls, which I’m sure a lot of our listeners would be familiar with. World War II has become an amazing subgenre of historical oral fiction, remarkably popular. What do you think that people are really attracted to in the World War II area? Why World War II fiction is so popular A.W. Hartoin: I think we’re living in a time of great uncertainty and the Ukraine situation is very reminiscent of Hitler invading Poland. We know how World War II it turned out, but it was filled with uncertainty at the time, but it was black and white. It was good versus evil, which is really appealing. I can’t stop thinking about the price that people paid during the war. The more you learn, the more amazing people get. My grandfather flew in the Pacific during the war. He played a terrible price and he lived with that for the rest of his life. He never spoke about it to us. He did not want to talk about it at all, but my grandmother did talk about it, and it was very hard for the both of them. Jenny Wheeler: Turning to Mercy, because you do have a lighter, more fun side to your mysteries, as we say with the Cozy Series and Mercy Watts. She’s been compared to more great names, like Janet Evanovich and Jana. DeLeon. So, you’ve got great company there. Tell us about your sleuth Mercy. A.W. Hartoin: Unlike Stella, who is a great person, but Mercy is a lot of fun. She’s young, she has this large group of family and friends. Everybody’s interacting all the time. She is not an alone detective. Her father is a retired police officer and a PI, and he really wanted her to follow in his footsteps. She did not do that and became a nurse, and he’s always trying to pull her in cases because it’s the family business and she’s not real thrilled about that. But she does what she has to do for the family. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Mercy Watts – a change of pace – a Cozy Mystery Jenny Wheeler: In the first one, A Good Man Gone, she’s a nurse and a dutiful daughter. She’s enjoying a well-deserved vacation when she gets drawn into a murder mystery or a foul play death after the sudden death of one of her father’s partners. But she evolves. You are now up to number 14. How does she evolve over the series? A.W. Hartoin: She’s always growing and changing, which has been really fun with her. She’s gone from being a very reluctant detective to actually becoming a detective by choice and she’s had her personal life evolve. Other people with her have evolved. she’s always grown and changed, so it’s never gotten dull. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. How do you handle with these cozy mysteries, which go a long time? Sometimes authors have a difficulty about the aging aspect. You’ve got 14 now, if you’d been doing one a year. She’s now 14 years older than when she started, but do you keep to real time or do you just, fudge around the edges, her aging? A.W. Hartoin: We’ve not grown with each year. She’s just a few years older than she was when we started. She was 25 when we started. I had her turn 26 at one point, and I never mentioned it again. It’s not a year between mysteries. It’s happening constantly for her. Time passes – and Mercy grows up Jenny Wheeler: She’s engaged in this latest one. Perhaps, sorry, that’s the one I might have been getting muddled up with. That’s being published in the next few weeks, isn’t it? A.W. Hartoin: She got engaged in number 13 and now she is currently engaged in the one that’s about to be released. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And what’s the name of the one that’s just about to be released? A.W. Hartoin: So Long Gone. Jenny Wheeler: And what now? What happens in that one? Just a general idea of the setup. A.W. Hartoin: We set up at the very beginning, the first book. She had a boyfriend that she was very much in love with who disappeared when she was 16 We’re going to wrap up what happened to him. That has been something that she has been dealing with her whole life. That was the first time she became a very public person. The press became aware of her and stalked her and it was a hard introduction to the world of the press and attention, and we’re finally wrapping up the question of what happened to David in this book. Jenny Wheeler: It sounds fun. They started in 2013. How do you keep yourself fresh doing a series over a decade? A.W. Hartoin: Because she’s grown and changed so much, it never feels like something new isn’t happening. And we’ve done a lot of travel. She’s been to Honduras, she’s been to Colorado, she’s gone to Paris a couple of times. She’s been to Germany. So those are things that always are fun for me to have a new place. It’s a new experience for her, so it just really is fun to write every time I do it. How A.W. Hartoin got into writing Jenny Wheeler: How did you get into the publishing game? You sound as if you’ve got it amazingly under control. Did you start as a self-published author or did you go straight to trad publishing? Tell us a bit about your pathway into writing. A.W. Hartoin: I’m self-published. I did get some minor attention from agents with the first Mercy book, but, then self publishing happened and I thought why not? How bad can it be? And then I got really lucky with the timing. because I was ready. I did prep a lot with long-term critique groups that I worked with. I learned a lot from them. I had a lot of help from a lot of people. Jenny Wheeler: And you’re still self-publishing now? A.W. Hartoin: Yes, I am. Jenny Wheeler: Is it really now very much, I would think, your first choice, you wouldn’t look at being traditionally published probably. Is that right? A.W. Hartoin: I can’t imagine doing that. I’ve done it for so long. I enjoy having control over my covers and what I write and where they’re going to go. I can’t imagine doing anything different, because I’ve always done it this way, Shooting your own covers Jenny Wheeler: Yes. You mentioned control over your covers and we had a brief conversation off air before we started about the latest Stella Bled cover, I just love the cover. I thought it was the most stunning cover, the one that set in London. And you mentioned that you had a photographer friend shoot that. Did you do that as a whole live setup with a live model A.W. Hartoin: Yes, I did. His name is Brian Cann. He is an award-winning photographer. He’s amazing. He is a good friend of mine. He lives here in Germany. He’s a British citizen. And he shot several covers. also, we redid the Paris package cover number one, and he shot that model. And we’ve shot a bunch of books already for the future. So we already have covers for Lyon. We already have covers for Nuremberg and probably Prague as well. Jenny Wheeler: My gosh, I’m so impressed. Tell us about your actual writing. How do you set up your discipline for writing? Do you have a certain number of books you want to finish in a year? Do you have a whole publication plan set out ahead of time? A.W. Hartoin: I do and I don’t. Things happen, things change. You never know what’s going to happen in your life. We’ve had a couple of deaths in the family this year, so that changed things a lot for me. But I do plan, I use my cork boards and plan everything out, and then when I start a book, I am very disciplined. I am at my writing every morning at nine o’clock without fail. And I do not do any appointments. I do nothing during the period of writing, and I plot out exactly what’s going to happen every day. I write everything out. My family gets driven crazy by the amounts of paper, because I write out everything by hand before I actually type it. Life in the military before full time writing So, there’s a lot of layers that goes into it. But I’m very disciplined when it’s time to write a book. Jenny Wheeler: That’s just amazing. Turning away from the specific books, to your wider career, before you became a full-time author, what did you do and has that fed into the work that you’re doing now? I. A.W. Hartoin: It might surprise you, but I was active duty military and I worked on laser guided bomb systems. On the F15, the F16, I also worked on the A10 warthog. I joined the military because I wanted to be a writer and I knew I needed more experiences. I had to get out of my hometown. It was just a wonderful hometown, but very small and not very varied in the people that I was meeting. It was the best decision I could have made. I met my husband and I’ve been able to meet so many people from so many different backgrounds. Not to mention that I’ve got to live in Alaska, Italy, Germany. I couldn’t have written any of the books that I’ve written without those experience and without all those people that I’ve gotten to know. Jenny Wheeler: Wow, that’s terrific. And so you very much from the beginning, were planning on having a writing career. Were you writing in the evenings when you were in the military? A.W. Hartoin: I was writing short stories and I was taking some classes as well. I took a short story class that was really great. I was prepping, but I really didn’t get too intense about it until I left the military and started seriously working. Jenny Wheeler: And how long ago was that? A.W. Hartoin: Oh, let’s see. Probably 20 years ago. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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W. Hartoin’s success Jenny Wheeler: If there was one thing that you see as the “secret of your success” in quotes, because people always like to know, they think there’s one thing that’s going to be like pushing a button. What would it be? A.W. Hartoin: I don’t think I have any magic things except for, I’d have to say, it’s my husband. When I told him I wanted to be a writer, I was so nervous, because I didn’t know what he would think, because we were both in the military, we were both doing non creative jobs, I’d say, and it seemed like such an unattainable thing that I wanted. But he immediately says, ‘do it. You’ll be great.’ Then he read everything I’ve written. He’s given me honest feedback on every single book and short story, everything. He’s put in countless hours on the website. He’s taking care of my computer because I don’t know computers. He’s done advertising. He’s just wonderful. We take long walks and he helps me plot on walks. We’ll, he comes up with ideas and then we bounce things off each other. He’s absolutely the key to my success. Jenny Wheeler: How wonderful. When you started writing, what was your main goal and have you achieved it yet? A.W. Hartoin: I don’t think it’s a grand goal. I just wanted to be published and I wanted to reach an audience and have people enjoy what I write. That’s it, and every time I get a message from a fan, I know that I’ve done that, and it makes my day. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. We like to always check out with our authors the books they’re reading and what they’d like to recommend for our listeners, and because we are Binge Reading, we’re generally talking a about books for entertainment and escape. What’s your reading like and how have you used it over the years? I’m sure a lot of it has been for research, but do you have fun reading as well? What A. W. Hartoin is reading now A.W. Hartoin: Oh, I read just almost about everything. I don’t read a lot of horror because I like sleeping. And let’s see. I’ve read The House Witch recently, which is something, a genre I’ve never read is like a humorous fantasy romance, and that was a lot of fun. Highly recommend that just for escapism. It’s just so much fun. Before that, I did read Stephen King’s The Shining, which I decided it was worth the not sleeping, and it was wonderful. It was perfectly plotted. For mystery? Recently I’ve read EM Powell Stanton and Barling series. It’s medieval and it was really fun and interesting to read that period, which I don’t really know much about. Let’s see, what else have I read? Oh, I love everything by Lianne Moriarty and especially What Alice Forgot. I love that book. Everyone should read that book. Let’s see, for World War ii, it’s mostly nonfiction. So, for that one, The Splendid and the Vile by Eric Larson was great. So was the Rape of Europa by Lynn H Nicholas. I’ve read The Nightingale, (Kirstin Hannah) which was great. I love that book, but I usually read a lot of nonfiction for the World War II stuff. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing you would change about your creative career, what would it be? I. A.W. Hartoin: That’s really hard to say because I’m so happy with how things turned out. But I think I would do self-publishing earlier and I wouldn’t be so hesitant and nervous about that. I made a lot of mistakes. Had some terrible covers, had to fix that, had to learn a lot. But I think I would do it sooner and I think I’d be less shy about telling people what I do. I almost never tell people when I meet them what I do. A.W. Hartoin – a shy high achiever Jenny Wheeler: Even today? A.W. Hartoin: Even today I just don’t ever, I don’t really talk about it. I just do what I do and, get on with it. I don’t really talk to people. I should be less shy about talking to people and I should do more things like this podcast with you. I tell people no when I should say yes, Jenny Wheeler: Oh, amazing. Yes. You’ve got the vague phrase of bestselling author attached to your name, so you’ve sold lots of copies of your books and you’ve found an audience, haven’t you? A.W. Hartoin: I have. I didn’t expect any of the things that happened. I didn’t expect to get people writing to me. When that started happening, I was so surprised. It never occurred to me that would happen, and that’s been really great. People asking ‘When’s the next book coming out?’ was just so much fun. Cause I thought, oh my gosh, people actually are looking forward to something I’ve written. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. Looking over the next 12 months, give us an idea of your publishing schedule. What have you got on your desk for the next 12 months? Moving from Germany to Washington A.W. Hartoin: It’s going to be a busy year. We’re actually leaving Germany and moving to DC. So that’s going to be a big block of time where I’m not going to be able to write, but Mercy 14 releases on July 11th. Then I’m set to start writing a fourth book in the new series, Afterlife Issues. Next week, at the end of July, we’re going to Lyon to research the next Stella. Then during the move to DC, which is a huge long process, I will be doing all the Lyon research and plotting Stella without my cork boards because they’ll be packed. That’s going to be interesting and I am hoping to start Stella # 7 in October, but you just never know what’s going to happen. During our move to Italy, both our desks got crushed, so something terrible could happen. I could lose my computer. You never know. Jenny Wheeler: Do you aim to publish one Mercy and one Stella every year? A.W. Hartoin: I do, I would like to do more, but there’s so many things happening. I have the new series. I would like to do two mercies per year, but the research on Stella really takes up a large block of time, so I haven’t really been able to do more than that in a while. Jenny Wheeler: And you’ve been living in Europe for a number of years now. Give us an idea about how you got to Europe and how you’re obviously now moving back to the states. Living in Europe ‘a wonderful experience’ A.W. Hartoin: We were living in Colorado for a long period of time because that’s where my husband was stationed and then he got a job over here. And so we moved on over. Let’s see, when was that? I guess 2017 is when we moved over. It’s been a great fun. It’s been wonderful for research. It’s great to be able to just drive up to Nuremberg and research the for Stella. It’s been a wonderful experience. Jenny Wheeler: Now his work is taking a back to Washington is it? A.W. Hartoin: Yes. It’s a new challenge. I’m sure Mercy is absolutely going to end up in DC at some point. Actually, I’ve already plotted out the next three mercies so we know exactly what’s going to happen for the next three mercies and she will be in DC –  Let’s see, for Mercy, 18, I think. I’m not sure I have it all written out, Jenny Wheeler: Totally amazing. You mentioned hearing from your readers. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online or where is the best way for them to get together with you? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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W. Hartoin online A.W. Hartoin: I really do enjoy chatting with readers and. A lot of ideas come from things that they say and they tell me. I am best about responding to Facebook, but I do respond to emails. I just tend to do those on the weekend. But Facebook, I answer them every day. Jenny Wheeler: And that’s your main social media platform? Is it Facebook? A.W. Hartoin: Yes, I also have Instagram, I do check it every day, I’m not as much interacting on Instagram as I am on Facebook. Facebook is just seems more personal to me Jenny Wheeler: A.W. it’s been wonderful being able to chat. I’m absolutely flattened with admiration by the way that you are managing to keep all these balls in the air as they say, and remarkable planning that you’re doing there. Congratulations and thanks so much. A.W. Hartoin: Thank you so much for having me. This has been a really good experience for me. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. A.W. Yes, do lots more. You’re great. A.W. Hartoin: Thank you so much. Jenny Wheeler: Thanks. Bye now. A.W. Hartoin: Bye. If you enjoyed A.W. you might also enjoy Kelly Rimmer Kelly Rimmer’s sweeping World War Two historical suspense has sold more than 2 million copies worldwide and made international best seller lists, including the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and USA Today. In this episode of Binge Reading, Kelly talks about her latest historical saga, The Paris Agent and two otherwise ordinary women who become spies in World War II France. It’s a powerful story which threads their lives – they are real life woman – into history, leaving an indelible story of courage and family ties. listen to kelly on binge reading Next week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading: Adrienne Chinn and an epic, sweeping historical novel. Perfect for the fans of Lucinda Riley, about the three Frye sisters. THREE SISTERS – Separated by distance, bound by love Book two in the series, The Paris Sister, moves from the glamour of the roaring twenties in Paris to Egypt, the isle of Capri and London high society. Critics call it an “immersive, emotional and highly enjoyable historical novel that takes readers all over the world and keeps them turning the pages.” That’s next week on The Joys of Binge Reading.  And just a reminder. If you enjoy the show, leave us a review. If I say it often enough, you just might do it. Word of mouth is still the best way to spread the word and introduce people to great books they will want to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and Happy Reading! *Kristallnacht or the Night of Broken Glass, also called the November pogrom(s) was a pogrom against Jews carried out by the Nazi Party’s Sturmabteilung (SA) from  9–10 November 1938

Madeleine  Eskedahl is the best-selling author of crime thrillers set in seaside, New Zealand. Local policemen, Bill Granger is hoping for a quiet off season, but when a narcotics drop goes badly wrong and a man ends up overboard a straightforward case turns into a complex web of small town secrets. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler and on binge reading today, Madeleine talks about growing up on a beautiful Norwegian island. and then exchanging it all for the Kiwi coastline, as well as about the creative spark she’s always felt within her and has always nurtured. Giveaway This Week In our giveaway this week, Cool Off With A New Book, a wonderful selection of entertaining fiction, free to download for a limited time. It includes Susannah’s Secret my own #2 book in the Home At Last series set in 19th century San Francisco. DOWNLOAD FREE BOOKS https://books.bookfunnel.com/cooloffwithanewbook/8tho8xx8vh Details for where to find the books to download, as well as links to the things we discuss including Madeleine talking about the book she’s reading at the moment, can be found in the show notes for this episode on the website, www.thejoysofbingereading.com. And remember if you enjoy the show, do leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best form of recommendation and a wonderful way for people to find the show and great books they will love to read. Links in Madeleine Eskedahl episode Scandinavian Writers Madeleine loves: Camilla Lackberg: https://camillalackberg.se/en/ Mari Jungstedt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_Jungstedt Linda Olsson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linda_Olsson Anna Jansson: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Jansson Other books she is reading: Nikki Crutchley: To The Sea and In The Blood. https://www.nikkicrutchley.com/ Paul Cleave: The Pain Tourist.  https://www.paulcleave.com/ https://www.paulcleave.com/books#/new-gallery-1 Vanda Simon: Expectant and the Sam Shepard series. https://www.simonandschuster.co.uk/authors/Vanda-Symon/157008107 Jane Harper: Exiles. https://janeharper.com.au/ Adrian McKinty: The Chain.  http://officialadrianmckinty.com/ Tom Mitchell: The Penguin Lessons..  https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/26192990 Ngaio Marsh Awards: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ngaio_Marsh_Awards Where to find Madeleine Eskedhal online Website: https://www.madeleineeskedahlauthor.com/ Instagram: @madeleineeskedahlauthor/ Facebook: @madeleineeskedahlauthor/ Email: [email protected] Introducing Madeline Eskedahl thriller author Madeleine Eskedahl – Matakana Seaside thrillers Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Madeleine. Hello, Madeleine, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Madeleine Eskedahl: Hello, Jenny. Thank you so much for having me on the show. Jenny Wheeler: It’s really fun to be able to interview a fellow Kiwi because this is an international show. And you’re not that far away from me, are you? Give international readers a sense of where you are in New Zealand. Madeleine Eskedahl: I’m located north of Auckland, about 70 km. iI’s about an hour’s drive in an area called Matakana, which is quite a famous wine area. And it’s full of beautiful beaches, incredible bushwalks and just the most beautiful environment. And we have lots of visitors come through both in the summer and on a weekend. It makes it the perfect place to sit a pacey crime thriller. How Madeleine settled on the crime genre Jenny Wheeler: That’s it. And this book we’re going to be talking about today, Rings On Water, is the second in a crime series called The Matakana Series. So very appropriate. When I first met you, which was quite a few years ago now, we were both vaguely circling in the romance writer area. And I was assuming you would be writing romances, so what made you get into the crime genre? Madeleine Eskedahl: I don’t write romance, but the reason why I joined (Romance Writers NZ) was that I’d met some really lovely ladies who did write romance and they convinced me to come along. I was more interested in more general fiction and I’ve always loved crime, but I think at the time I was writing for my children. I was more in the children’s arena, nothing published, but still in the drawer! It’s still something that might be exciting to develop, As a crime writer, anyone can go to the Romance Writer’s conferences and I highly recommend it if anyone’s interested in starting their writing career, because it’s all about craft, companionship, super supportive writers, and they just can’t help you enough, especially if you’re an emerging writer. I still catch up with my romance writing friends. And it’s just lovely. It’s just a lovely community. A local cop with an attractive off sider Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I must admit, when I first joined the Romance Writers, which is a few years ago now, they were one of the most welcoming communities that I’d ever been around. They were really great to be able to be part of. Your first novel, Blood on Vines, was a local bestseller. And this one, Rings on Water, is following close in its footsteps. It went into the bestseller list last week, didn’t it? Tell us about that. (Editor’s note: In fact in early July both books 1 and 2 of the Matakana series were in the Top Ten in popular fiction book stores.) Rings On Water debuted on 2nd place on the NZ Top 10 Bestsellers List Blood On Vines also debuted in 2nd place on the NZ Top 10 Beatsellers List  on release, and stayed on for 8 weeks.  Blood On Vines is currently on the prestigious Whitcoulls Top 100 list as voted by readers for the year 2022/23. Madeleine Eskedahl: it’s quite funny, starting off writing Blood on Vines probably took me about four years. And I’m glad to say that the second novel, Rings on Water, took half that time. I’m hoping that’s a trend that will continue. But the series itself?  We’ve had a place up in this area for close to 15 years. We’re now permanent residents here. And I found the environs and the interesting people combined with the influx of visitors was gold for a crime writer’s brain. The series itself it was meant to be a trilogy and I’m writing on the next one, which is Angels of Clay, at the moment. In the series, we follow Sergeant Bill Granger, who is sole charge of the Matakana Village Police Station for most of the year. Because it’s a wine area with all the busyness that comes with the summer season and school holidays, he gets a young constable seconded up over the summer. His name is Niko Sopoaga. He’s a young Samoan, seconded from a very busy area in Auckland, one of the busiest districts that we have, South Auckland, where are lots of gangs and lots of criminal activity. Basically, with Sergeant Granger, they’re thrown into all manner of challenging situations. Fast paced thriller combined with family life And I think it’s also what I write is probably very relatable in a way. It’s people and families going through everyday normal issues, teenage children, family drama and all manner of challenges. Things that we all go through and amongst all this attention builds up and as in all communities, revenge and greed pops up, mixed with a certain undercurrent of criminal element, that makes the books fast paced and an exciting read according to readers. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. It’s small town New Zealand, as you’ve explained, but unfortunately it has very much a global thread running through it because of the attachment of drugs in small town communities. And that obviously has become a worldwide problem. The same sorts of drugs, Meth and all the rest. How did you do the research for the gritty side? This is Rings On Water we’re talking about specifically now. Madeleine Eskedahl: Obviously, I did lots of reading. Research is one of my favorite things to do apart from the writing. To really get into the nitty gritty, I talked to a whole lot of teenagers about what it’s like living in a small town as well as a city and the pressure that they’re under, how easy it is to get hold of drugs in different manner. And also, I went through my police contacts and got their perspective. It’s very interesting and very scary. And I’ve got young adult daughters, they’re just in their early twenties, so they’re probably through the worst of that. But I can so relate to perhaps how a parent would feel if this kind of thing would occur, and the trauma and the tragic fallout. A punchy start a necessity in Madeleine’s mind Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Because we are two small islands in New Zealand this opens with a marine, a seaside pickup at sea at night that goes nastily wrong. They’re picking up a drug delivery. In New Zealand, that would be a reasonably common way that they got in large amounts of drugs into these small communities. So that’s a very dramatic way for it to open. Madeleine Eskedahl: Thank you. Yes. I wanted it to be a punch in the face prologue.  I like a punchy start to a book and it ends in tragedy as you know because you’ve read it. I knew I wanted to set the story in the winter months. New Zealand with this beautiful climate and lots of sunshine for the rest of the year, but the winters can be bleak. They’re not cold, but they’re bleak and rainy and stormy. I really wanted to evoke that feeling of inclement weather and wanted that to be the perfect setting. And I think it’s set the mood for the book. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. In fact, the first novel Blood On Vines also has a very punchy beginning. I haven’t got through the whole of the first book, but I did get into it. And that first opening chapter is terrific. a former winemaker suddenly meets a rather unpleasant end. We know nothing about why this has happened, but it’s very attention gaining right at the beginning. Madeleine Eskedahl: That’s right. That scene was one of the first ones I had and I wanted to develop something that would really set you back on, on your heels and go, wow, what’s, what is there to come? And build the tension. And I really enjoyed writing the first book in the series, Blood on Vines, even though, being a novice writer, it wasn’t that easy despite all the workshops and the contacts I had within the writing community. It’s lots of trial and error, but I really feel I did it justice. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Madeleine Eskedahl: In the second book Sergeant Granger the local policeman is back with Constable Niko Sopoaga even though it’s winter. Bill’s has had an accident, so Niko seconded up to help out and take the load. Alongside Bill, they fall into a dark and dangerous world of drug distribution and a hardened motorbike gang wreaking havoc while they chase a clever killer. Aptly after the very action-packed prologue, the story starts on a blustery winter’s day when a young woman is found dead at a local beach. So Bill had hoped for a quiet off season, but instead, like in any small town community, everyone discovers that secrets run deep. Jenny Wheeler: And Bill’s own later teenage son gets mixed up in it too. There’s an aspect of family emotion in it as well. You’re writing about your own area. You’ve mentioned a lot of real name places that local people would recognize like the local cafe, The Farmer’s Daughter. And with these small town communities, I wondered if there were both pluses and minuses to doing that. Do you have neighbors frequently suggesting the next one you could do or being critical about something, some local detail that really isn’t relevant for most readers? Madeleine Eskedahl: I do. And I actually love it because people feel really invested in the fact that a series is set here in their backyard. I’ve got a fantastic readership and I love hearing suggestions. Most of those I can’t follow, because, you can’t write about people that you know. But I guess living in such a diverse place it really is gold for a crime writer’s brain. I don’t think there are too many negatives. The negatives might be that there are too many ideas, but the pluses are it’s so inspiring and I so enjoy it. Forging ahead as an indie author Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. I wondered, are you indie published at the moment? Madeleine Eskedahl: I am indie published. And that’s by choice. I guess I was a little bit too impatient getting my first book out and then the wheels are spinning, and I’m enjoying it because you are your own boss and you decide and you put the work that you want in. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve achieved something very unusual for an indie author. You’ve got your books in paperback form distributed throughout the country, which is how you’ve also got onto some of these bestseller lists because they are widely available. How did you manage that? Madeleine Eskedahl: I often get asked that question. There is no magic formula. I just think you have to present a quality product. And I guess coming from a business background I found how I approach it makes a difference. So, you’re using professional editors, cover designers and maybe a publicist to help push it along as well. And it’s just all about relationships. And having a good relationship with booksellers and readers, book bloggers, and just generally being available. And it’s a lot of fun. I’m loving it. Jenny Wheeler: What does a typical writing day look like for you at the moment? How do you spend your time? How much do you allocate to writing and how much to marketing, for example? Madeleine Eskedahl: I’m an early riser, so I try to get some words down in the morning. I don’t have a word count and I don’t believe in writer’s block. There are mornings when you don’t perhaps feel like you’ve got any words coming out. But if you just glue your behind on the chair and you get on with the writing, eventually some good words will come and you can always delete the ones that you don’t like. I just go with that. And how do you eat an elephant? One small bite at a time. It doesn’t matter if one day is 500 words or one day is 1500 words or more. Just go with it, I think. Angels of Clay is coming soon Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. I think you mentioned earlier, when you were reflecting on the writing that you’re currently working on book four. Is that right? Madeleine Eskedahl: I’m working on book three, Angels of Clay. I’ve also got a couple of other freestanding projects going on. But getting back to my working day, and you mentioned research. It’s actually one of my favorite things to do. And I was incredibly lucky just a few weeks ago to spend some time in the States and attend two writers police academies both in Wisconsin. It was an incredible experience for a Kiwi crime writer because we got to experience things, that even though it’s very different, the policing in the States, it’s still similar, disciplines. We got to do anything from advanced driving techniques, to using handguns and rifles, to working in the crime lab, working on crime scenes, listening to incredible speakers. It’s those kinds of things that really add to your repertoire and makes your writing even better. I go to a lot of talks. I belong to the Forensic Society here in New Zealand. And I think anything you can learn about what you’re writing to make it as authentic as possible is good. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. How did you find those workshops? Madeleine Eskedahl: TheWriter’s Police Academy, which was the first one, it’s been going for 15 years. It was in Green Bay this year, and I booked that before Covid. and then the country was closed down and I couldn’t go. And this year it was open again, and it was the very last year. So, I thought I’d better go. And then luckily enough, there was another one that opened up within days. I was lucky enough to attend both. And I must say the Americans, they put me on toast. They thought it was wonderful having a New Zealander there. And I so enjoyed my time and they were just great. A wide business career has been an asset Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. Moving away from the books to talking about your wider career, you referred to a business background. What life and work experience did you have prior to starting to write full time that may have fed into your work and helped you with it? Madeleine Eskedahl: It’s a good mix of all sorts of career options. I’ve worked in anything from a shipping company to a travel agency. We’ve been in recruitment. And most recently we’re in an employment business. We assist people into jobs and support them to maintain their work, which is hugely fulfilling. I love it. Jenny Wheeler: You’re still doing some of that as well as you’re writing? Madeleine Eskedahl: A little yes, a little bit, Part time, because the writing is now taking over, which is very exciting. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. in your About Me section on your website, you mention that you originally hailed from Europe, from Sweden actually, and I wondered how you landed on Kiwi shores? Madeleine Eskedahl: Yes, I was born on Gotland which is an island in the Baltic Sea. It’s right in between the Swedish mainland and the Baltic States. It’s a beautiful place, also a tourist place in the summer, which is strange how I’ve ended up, in a tourist place again. I had the best childhood, it’s such a historical place, lots of medieval history, actually the walled town is very Harry Potteresque, cobblestones, narrow lanes, it’s just beautiful, medieval houses everywhere. I grew up in the country amongst Viking remnants and rugged coastline. I am a true Islander which is why I so feel at home where I’m living at the beach north of Auckland. I think it’s the sea air, but I met my husband who’s a Kiwi and that’s how I ended up here. And I’ve now been here for just over 30 years. I’m very Kiwi, even though we retain a lot of Swedish traditions and that’s something that my family and my children in particular insist on, which is lovely. Yeah we’re a combined family. Scandi Noir one of Madeleine’s passions Jenny Wheeler: That’s gorgeous. Are you seeking to get international distribution for your books? You sound like you’d be the person who’d be starting to look at that anyway. Madeleine Eskedahl: The books are available online worldwide anyway, so you can order if you’re in Sweden, Denmark, Germany, whatever, you can order the paperback online. But obviously translation would be nice. I would definitely be open for that. And I have a lot of requests from in particular Scandinavian readers who would love to read it in Swedish or Norwegian or Danish. Jenny Wheeler: There’s such a lot of really good Scandinavian female crime writers, aren’t there? I’ve ventured a little bit into that territory. Camilla Lackberg is one of my favorites. Do you follow them? And have you been influenced by them? Madeleine Eskedahl: I do and I love Camilla Lackberg for example. I was lucky enough to attend a crime festival on the island of Gotland a couple of years, maybe five or six years ago. It was called Crime tTme Gotland and they had the creme de la creme of all of the crime writers of the Nordic countries and it was just a fabulous few days in an amazing setting. Camilla Lackberg is amazing. I love her writing. Another one, would be Marie Jungstedt. She’s also translated. Who else? Linda Olsson, of course she doesn’t write crime, but she is an amazing Swedish Kiwi writer. Who else? Anna Jansson. The list is as long as your arm. And I feel so inspired from especially these ladies. And that’s a little bit how I write. I think there’s a real Scandinavian twist to my writing. the very everyday settings and situations and then these extraordinary happenings that come along. And I like a bit of domestic noir. I think it’s quite nice, Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I can see definite parallels between Camilla and your book. If there was one thing that you would see as quotes, “the secret of your success” in your creative career, what would you attribute it to? Madeleine Eskedahl: I think it’s a good work ethic. To work hard and to see things through. To give it your all at all times. I think that’s it. To finish projects. I’m a finisher. Whatever I start, I like to finish, whether it’s a quilt, whether it’s a painting or whether it is indeed a novel. I like to finish it. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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Do you do book club chats? And if so, how can people get in touch with you to organize them? Madeleine Eskedahl: Absolutely. And I’ve done quite a few in Auckland and around book clubs and book clubs up here where I’m living. I also do community chats or library talks. I just love meeting people. The best way to get hold of me would be either through my website or on social media. I’m on Facebook and TikTok, all the normal ones. And my details that are available on all of those. So yes, happy to do a talk Jenny Wheeler: We’ll put those links in the show notes for this episode. When you do the local ones, do you do those in person or on online? Madeleine Eskedahl: Yes, in person. As many as possible. I love the in person and the chatting and not only my talk, but listening to other people’s, preference of books and what they like in my books and the comparisons. I like the exchange with people. It’s nice. The in person. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. We always like to ask our authors about their own reading tastes because this is binge reading and it is really framed for people who love to get into a series and read voraciously through the whole series. But not necessarily. What do you like to read? And do you read for escapism and entertainment? Who and what Madeleine is reading Madeleine Eskedahl: Absolutely. I always have a book with me, always a pile on my bedside table, teetering, falling over most of the time. I read a lot of New Zealand authors and anything Nikki Crutchley. I loved To The Sea. Excellent. Paul Cleave is one of my very favorites. He’s a Christchurch writer. His latest was The Pain Tourist. Absolutely superb. He’s an absolute craftsman. Vanda Simon. She’s also South Island writer. Her Sam Shepard series. I just love her and I guess it’s very similar to mine. It’s set in everyday, small town. Her latest is Expectant. What else? Australia. I love Jane Harper. Anything that she does excels. Epic Adrian McKinty, a brilliant writer and I loved his book, The Chain. He’s also got The Island. But a feel good book that I’ve read in the last couple of months was called The Penguin Lessons and it’s by an author called Tom Mitchell. I work closely as a volunteer with our local little penguins here along the coast so this, Tom’s story in this book is about how a penguin by the name of Juan Salvador adopts him and it’s just heartwarming. And if you just want something that’s just beautiful and beautifully written, I highly recommend that. But apart from that, anything Scandi.   love Scandi Noir and there’s so many so many. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s lovely. Hey, tell us about the penguins. The little blue penguins and their place in Madeleine’s life Madeleine Eskedahl: Oh, I’m a volunteer. Straight after I talk to you, I’m heading out and I monitor the nesting sites, both man-made, so we have nesting boxes, as well as natural nests. And one of my favorite spots is an old hollowed out Pohutukawa tree on the very rocky coast of Ti Point and we have cameras set up. The penguins are nocturnal, so we don’t see them. We don’t handle them and you’re not allowed to touch them. But we monitor their nesting habits and when they roost and when they have chicks. And it is just the best job ever. I Jenny Wheeler: Are these little blue penguins? Madeleine Eskedahl: They are. The little blue. They’re a native to New Zealand and Australia. They are tiny, only 30 cm in height, and on the odd occasion you see them during the day when they’re out fishing. You might be out in a boat and you could see them, but they only come ashore around midnight and they feed their young or sit and roost. Often one parent sits on the egg and the other one goes fishing and then they swap. It’s hugely rewarding. Lots of fun. Jenny Wheeler: That sounds lovely. And they’re threatened by predators, are they? Madeleine Eskedahl: At the moment we’ve seen a decrease in numbers and we’re keeping an eye on it. All of the data that we collect go to an official database and it’s possibly due to lack of food, slight warming of the sea, so what they feed on goes further out, which means they have to swim further to feed etc. We’re not quite sure, but it’s pointing that way. We’re trying to educate the public. Obviously, these birds nest along the shore, and we want the public to have their dogs on leads, et cetera. There was a report recently from Wellington and I think one or two penguins were attacked by dogs and killed. We just have been mindful and educate the public in that way. The Westie Three Musketeers Jenny Wheeler: Talking about dogs, you are the owner of beloved dogs, aren’t you? Tell us about your Westies. Madeleine Eskedahl: Yes. We used to have three. The three musketeers they were quite famous on social media and they were my constant writing companions. Sadly, we lost two last year but at a very ripe old age of 17 and 15. We’ve got one left, Archie. He’s 14, still going strong, but I think we are looking at getting some puppies. So that’ll be fun. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time. If there’s one thing you would change about your writing career, what would it be? Madeleine Eskedahl: You know what? I am reflecting on that. I don’t think I would change a thing. I think being in my fifties, I’m quite content and I actually cherish any mistake that I have made along the way. I think if you can learn something every day, that is just worth so much. So no, I wouldn’t change a thing. What is next for Madeline this year Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. What’s next for you in the next 12 months? Looking at your desk, we’re talking about your writing life. What’s on the horizon for you? Madeleine Eskedahl: The most important thing would be to finish the next book in the series, which is Angels of Clay. I’ve also got another couple of projects going on, so I think it’s going to keep me happy and very busy for the rest of the year. I’m heading off to Sweden in August. I’ll obviously take my laptop with me, but I don’t know how much writing I’ll get done. We’re catching up with family and also pursuing a few opportunities. So that’ll be wonderful. Jenny Wheeler: Great. And can you give us any hint about Angels of Clay? Madeleine Eskedahl: Angels of Clay is set just before Christmas. It’s summertime in New Zealand. Niko is returning to a very bustling Matakana and they’re preparing for the holidays and Bill’s wife, Annika, her family are coming from Sweden. There’s a lot of busy stuff going on. And we also have an element of a look back, a dual timeline back to the Second World War. I don’t know if you’re aware, but there were lots of American Marines stationed in and around Warkworth around the Second World War. I think we had 17 Marine camps. Around this area, which is thousands of soldiers. They built a lot of the infrastructure around here, like the roads, et cetera. So it’s got an element of that as well. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Where to find Madeline Eskedahl online Jenny Wheeler: Sounds just great. Now you’ve mentioned you’re on, I’m impressed that you’re on Tik Tok. You said the usual ones, Tik Tok isn’t usual for me, I must say, but we’ll put all those media contacts into the show notes for this episode. Is there anything else you particularly like to mention about the social media? Which ones do you use the most? Madeleine Eskedahl: I probably use Facebook and Instagram the very most. it’s fun, I think the most common ones are probably where you’re going to get all the up to date information and I put lots of reading recommendations, things I read, things I’ve been recommended and I like to show all of the New Zealand authors that we have. It’s really incredible fun just to have all these locals emerging and getting known there’s so much talent. Jenny Wheeler: That’s right. And actually the New Zealand, the Ngaio Marsh Awards are coming up in another couple of months, aren’t they? For the best mystery. And Nikki Crutchley who you mentioned before is one of the finalists. Nikki actually acted as a proofreader for my first couple of books, and we have had her on the show earlier on. So it’s great to see the way that she’s really powered on in her career. Madeleine Eskedahl: She’s amazing. She’s just doing so well. Such a talented lady. Jenny Wheeler: Great to talk today, Madeleine. It really is maybe sometime in the summer we can get together Madeleine Eskedahl: Thank you so much, Jenny. Bye. If you enjoyed Madeleine you may also enjoy Nikki Two missing girls, two decades apart. Only one person knows the truth… Jac Morgan never planned on going back to her hometown. Seven years after the fatal house fire that killed her mother and branded Jac a killer she’s back – but for only one reason. Her sister, Charlie, has gone missing. Charlie’s the only good thing in Jac’s life, and she doesn’t believe she would ever run away. Jac is certain the answer to her sister’s disappearance is somewhere in the town. Because twenty years ago, another teenage girl went missing. Paige Gilmore, beautiful and talented daughter of eccentric matriarch, Iris Gilmore, disappeared on the annual Gilmore Hotel Open Day. As Jac starts the search for Charlie, she is drawn to the Gilmore Hotel – the haunted house of her childhood, a place that holds its own secrets and mysteries and is still home to the enigmatic Iris and her long-suffering daughter, Lisa. LISTEN TO NIKKI ON BINGE READING Next week on Binge Reading.. Next week on Binge Reading: A World War II thriller, Book #6 in the Stella Bled Lawrence series by A. W Hartoin. It’s 1940 London  check and The Battle of Britain rages while Stella sits frustrated on the sidelines. Her husband, Nikki is unreachable as the risks has life flying in a Spitfire. And the former spy is sidelined doing secretarial work for the newly formed British spy service, the SOE. That’s next week on The Joys Of Binge Reading. And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

This week on Binge Reading, Annabel Monaghan and the ultimate summer nostalgia read about an engaged woman who comes face to face with her first love who she hasn’t seen in 14 years. What happens next calls into question, everything she thought she knew about their love story and herself. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and on Binge Reading today, Annabel talks about Same Time Next Summer, her latest funny good-hearted romcom, just the thing to get through the winter or to laugh over at the beach. Giveaways – more than 100 books on offer We’ve got a great lucky dip of Giveaways this week from a BookSweeps mystery draw, to Kobo free genre fiction, and Bookfunnel free books. Three different offers. with in total more than 100 books available, so get online to make your choice. I’ve teamed up with 40 fantastic authors to give away a huge collection of Mysteries, Thrillers & Suspense novels to 2 lucky winners! Oh, and did I mention the Grand Prize winner gets a BRAND NEW eReader? 😁 You can win two of my books in the Of Gold & Blood Book Bundle 2, plus books from authors like Gabriel Farago (on ​Binge Reading podcast​) and Rosalind Barden. Enter the giveaway by clicking here 👉 https://www.booksweeps.com/giveaway/july23-win-a-bundle-of-mysteries-thrillers-suspense/ Enter now and Good Luck! BOOKSWEEPS DRAW GIVEAWAY – JULY CHILLS FOR BEACH READING Ready for some great beach reading? Look no further! These bestselling authors have teamed up to offer a delightful selection of new books. Including Sadie’s Vow, #1 in my Home At Last trilogy. july chills for beach reading ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/julychillsbeach/7jggzr5fey Available for a limited time. KOBO FREE GENRE FICTION KOBO genre free fiction: This is a truly international offer – but you may need to change the flag on the Kobo homepage to access it…. FOR ONE WEEK ONLY A wonderful range of thrillers and mysteries in this truly international offer from Kobo – including Poisoned Legacy, #1 in the Of Gold & Blood series Visit the following link(s) to see the promotion: ​https://www.kobo.com/p/free-ebooks​! If you live in a country that isn’t included in this promotion, you may have trouble accessing the sale link. If this happens, change the flag at the top of the Kobo homepage to one of the included countries to see the sale link properly. KOBO FREE GENRE FICTION And do remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way for others to discover the show and great books they’ll love to read. Where to find topics mentioned in the show Carley Fortune: https://www.carleyfortune.com/ The Philadelphia Story: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032904/ The Proposal:  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1041829/ Romance Tropes: https://eviealexanderauthor.com/150-romance-novel-tropes/ Annabel Monaghan Column: https://annabelmonaghan.com/category/column/ Amy Poepell: https://www.amypoeppel.com/ Amy On Binge Reading:  https://thejoysofbingereading.com/amy-poeppel-fresh-funny-romcoms/ Lisa Jewell:  https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Lisa-Jewell/75656043 Elizabeth George:  http://www.elizabethgeorgeonline.com/ Where to find Annabel Monaghan online Website: annabelmonaghan.com Social media @annabelmonaghan (Instagram, Twitter and Facebook) Introducing romcom author Annabel Monaghan Annabel Monaghan Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Annabel. Hello there, Annabel, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Annabel Monaghan: Thank you. I am so happy to be here Jenny Wheeler: Romance is a genre I notice is changing quite remarkably from maybe five or seven years ago. There’s a lot more “life” in the stories as well as the romance, and your stories are a typical example of that. These days it’s about much more than finding the right guy, isn’t it? Annabel Monaghan: I think it’s always been in life a lot more than just finding the right guy. And I do see how people are diving a little bit deeper into what is actually going to make you happy. Because you can have the right guy and he can have all the right pieces and parts and you can still be unhappy. I love seeing stories where women are finding their best selves, along with finding a great guy. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. And the two books that we’re going to be talking about today, both very much exemplify that. Tell me what drew you to romance as a genre to write books in, in the first place? Writing a romance when you don’t know it Annabel Monaghan: It’s a funny you ask that because it didn’t I. When I wrote. Nora Goes Off Script I was writing a story that I might want to read and I didn’t really think about the genre that I was writing in. And when Putnam picked it up I had my first marketing meeting and they said, we’re going to market this book as women’s fiction and as a romance, and we’re going to see who picks it up. We’re going to see who is excited about it. And overwhelmingly it was the romance readers that were excited about the book I wrote, which made it into a romance. I went about it in a backwards way. I didn’t really think about what kind of a book I was writing, but I guess I wrote a romance. Jenny Wheeler: That first book was, as you’ve mentioned, called Nora Goes Off Script, and we’ll talk about that a little bit later because it was your first, but you’ve now got a second one that you’ve recently released, Same Time Next Summer. We’ll start by focusing on that because it’s the most recent one and that one is a first love story. We’ll get a little bit more into what the various ways are that you can tackle romance in a moment. But that one is a first love story. Tell us a bit about how that one came to be. Re-telling The Philadelphia Story 40 years later Nora Goes Off Script – a re-rite of The Philadelphia Story 40 years later… Annabel Monaghan: When you’re writing your second book, you do start to panic a little bit because you’re, you don’t want to write the same book over again. I was trying to come up with something that was totally different, really from what I had written in. Nora Goes Off Script and I had thought a lot about the movie, The Philadelphia story. Have you seen this movie? Jenny Wheeler: I don’t think I have, although I know it’s a classic. Annabel Monaghan: It’s a classic. It’s from 1940, and Katherine Hepburn brings her fiancé home to her parents’ house to get married, and her ex-husband is living next door. It’s a very fun story, but what it’s really ends up being about is about going home and seeing how much you’ve changed since you’ve left and what heartbreak can do to shape your identity. And I’ve thought a lot about that movie over the years and I decided that I wanted to write a book that was like that. I wanted to take a young girl and she’s a teenager and run her through a wonderful, heartfelt relationship and just blow the whole thing up to see what kind of a person she would become as an adult. So that story goes back and forth in time between when Sam and Wyatt are teenagers and in love, and now that she’s an adult and she’s going home and runs into him again. ‘Everything I want in a romance’ Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Now when she does go home, that’s nearly 15 years later, They haven’t seen each other since that terrible summer when it all broke up. And she’s got a fiancé on her arm, Jack, who she’s planning – very intensive plans – going on for the wedding. It does sound as if it mirrors ‘Philadelphia’ very closely. Now, Carley Fortune, who’s one of the rising romance stars, described it as “everything I want in a romance.” And I wondered, what do you want in a romance? Annabel Monaghan: I love Carley Fortune for saying that, by the way. That was so sweet. Here’s what I like in a romance. I like to feel it. I like to feel the whole thing in my heart and in my body. Sometimes when I read a romance and you have these people who have this great dynamic together and they fall in love and something terrible happens and then they get back together because one of them had a change of heart. That’s not enough for me because people don’t just change their mind and then they love you again. In a romance, I always look for the extra piece where something monumental has changed in them to make them come back together. Playing it safe after a broken heart Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. When we start out, the characters are there. Wyatt is a little bit vague at the beginning because we don’t know much about him. We only see him through Sam’s eyes. But at the beginning, when we see Sam’s life as a woman, you’re a little bit puzzled about why she’s trying to convince herself that Jack is the one she should be marrying. You’re not ever really entirely convinced that she is convinced herself that she wants to marry him. What’s going on there with that? That she’s telling herself in her head, this is the man I should be marrying. He’s ideal. Annabel Monaghan: Sam’s part of her heartbreak was that everybody that she counted on completely let her down. And she was broken by that. I think that in this story, as an adult, she is looking for the thing that she can count on. And there’s a lot to be said for that. I honestly, I respect people who choose something in their lives that’s going to feel safe for them so that they can be okay. There’s nothing wrong with that, but when you do that, you’re giving up sometimes the ‘big magic.’ The big love that has the possibility to destroy you. And it made sense to me that Sam would choose a man who had everything all planned out. He knew exactly, what exercise he was going to do every day. He knew what sports their kids were going to play. He was very much a predictable, stable guy. He might have actually been an okay guy for somebody else. A story of sunshine, first love and the beach Jenny Wheeler: That’s a great way of seeing it. Also, it’s so much a story of summertime and the beach and being young at the beach. It infuses the story. Even 15 years later, they capture that feeling of what it was like to be 15 at the beach. And I wondered if there was personal experience for you in that, and maybe even a little bit creeping in of a first love at the beach in a teenage years. Annabel Monaghan: Oh, so many first loves at the beach. I think every time I was in love, it was my first love. But I grew up in Los Angeles, so my childhood really took place largely at the beach. We went to the beach all the time. We had to drive there. We didn’t live on the beach, but I spent a lot of time at the beach and there is something to me that is so sensory about those young memories. Being 15, 16, 17 at the beach and having the salt dry on your skin and the way the sun felt on you and the music that you listen to each summer can transport you. I have all of those memories still, and it was really fun to write a book that took place so much in the summer because it was easy to get back to that nostalgic feeling and conjure all those memories. Never Miss out! 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Annabel Monaghan: Yes, and that transports her back. I needed a lot of things to crack her very hard exterior that she has worked so hard to cultivate, to survive into adulthood. Jenny Wheeler: Now, in both books, there is a neat plot twist about three quarters of the way through, which gives you a of a pitch of excitement and something unexpected happening, and it made me wonder how you go about your writing process? How much outlining you do, or whether you let the characters themselves lead you to that point? How do you go about it? Annabel Monaghan: I go about it in a very messy way that I don’t recommend to any of your listeners. I start writing a story with a very narrow premise, and I write with abandon until I get to the end, and by the time I get to the end, I have an understanding of who my characters are, and then I start over again. It is the most inefficient, ridiculous writing process. But I find that I can have ideas about a book if I’m three quarters of the way into the book. It’s living in my mind and I can start having ideas while I’m taking a walk or doing the dishes. But I don’t have original ideas unless I’m actually typing. To start a story I have to sit down and write my way into a story. And once I hit the character, once I understand who she is and who he is, then the whole thing becomes quite fun. But it’s very exploratory for a long time until that happens. Getting to know your characters in the writing Jenny Wheeler: For the reader in this book, you get to know Sam at the beginning and Wyatt is still quite a mystery, quite a way in, until you start to see him. Was that how it was when you wrote it? Did you start with a strong idea of Sam and Wyatt gradually revealed himself? Annabel Monaghan: That’s a great question. No, I actually knew Wyatt quite well and I think that at some point during the million drafts of this book, I had maybe a hundred pages of Wyatt’s life in his perspective when he moved out to California and the jobs he had and the recording studio and the girlfriend. I had all sorts of stuff that got cut from the story. As you’re reading, if it feels as if he’s being revealed slowly, that’s because Sam doesn’t want to look at him or remember him as much as she does. And by the end Sam is remembering him as we’re getting to know him, and that’s when he becomes more clear. But I had a clear sense of him early on. Jenny Wheeler: Wow, that’s interesting. How many drafts would you have written of that particular book? Annabel Monaghan: Oh my goodness. I probably wrote 12 drafts of this book. Jenny Wheeler: Oh my goodness me. That’s fantastic. The well-known romance tropes Annabel Monaghan: It is. And it’s fun. Each one’s fun. There are a few days that aren’t fun, but finding a story is a really fun process. Jenny Wheeler: Nora Goes Off Script. One of the things that I particularly loved about it was the very knowing way you had of writing about romance tropes. The very well-known tropes generally that romance follows. And we know that in this book because Nora is a screenwriter for romance movies, so she’s very familiar with the various tropes. And I wondered what trope that book itself would fit. Annabel Monaghan: Regular person dates, famous person. I think that’s the trope that it hits. It’s actually very funny to me. I didn’t know the word trope until after Nora Goes Off Script was published. I’d never heard the word before and what I was thinking about instead of tropes when I was writing that book, I was thinking about all the ridiculous things that you see on the Hallmark Channel when you’re watching those made for TV movies. Do you know those movies? These are the movies Nora writes Jenny Wheeler: We don’t have Hallmark here, I don’t think, but I do know what it means, yes. Annabel Monaghan: They take place in very small towns. Generally speaking, there’s one person from the big city and one person lives in the small town and they don’t get along and then they fall in love. And those are the movies that she writes. And I think that what I was talking about was tropes, but I didn’t know that word. Jenny Wheeler: For those listeners who maybe have not come across that word before, how would you describe it for the general reader? Annabel Monaghan: It’s the thing that you run across in a romance. It’s grumpy guy falls in love and becomes not grumpy anymore. It’s the trope where you’re fake dating, where you have to pretend to be dating someone. Like in the movie The Proposal you get to the hotel and there’s only one bed. ‘There’s only one bed’ is the name of a trope. So it’s the tricks or the mechanisms that romance novels use to hook you. People have favorite tropes. They say that Same Time Next Summer is a Second Chance romance. That’s the trope. And all the people who love Second Chance romances want to read another one. You never get tired of the trope that you like because there’s so many different ways to approach it. Romance readers and their favorite tropes Jenny Wheeler: And it’s interesting how romance readers they know their trope, don’t they? Annabel Monaghan: They do. Jenny Wheeler: Is there a baby one? Either surprise baby, or fake baby or extra baby? Annabel Monaghan: Please don’t give me an extra baby. We might not make that a thing in real life. That just sounds terrible. Jenny Wheeler: I wondered as a trope expert – or you perhaps you’re not a trope expert? I assumed you were because there were so many different sorts of movies that Nora was writing and she knew what she had to do so well. But, in romance generally, have you noticed since this last upheaval we’ve been through with Covid and the political situation in the States, which is still quite fractious, do you think there’s been a change in the tropes that people like or are they timeless? Annabel Monaghan: I haven’t noticed a change. I think that they are timeless. And I think that a romance novel is a place where you go to escape, but also to learn something about somebody’s life and to process things. And I think those stand the test of time. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. do you read a lot of romance yourself and have you got a favorite trope? The only trope that never happens in real life Annabel Monaghan: My favorite trope is, and someone just told me that this is the only trope that actually never happens, which made me laugh. I really like the fake dating. you have to come home with me and pretend to be my fiancé because my parents are going to disown me. That never happens in real life. I don’t know anyone that’s ever happened to. But I just always find the awkwardness so funny. I love it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. And the other thing, ten years ago, romance was probably a little bit more formulaic than it is now. And a little bit less interested in the emotions. I see that many of the reviews of your books refer to the deeply emotional nature of the stories, and I had the feeling that was far more important to you than the physical expression of love. Annabel Monaghan: Oh, that’s such a lovely compliment. Yes, absolutely. I really get into when I’m writing, I really get into the emotional state of the characters that I’m writing about, because it makes the writing much easier and more fluid for me. And I find that the emotional connection to the person and then getting to be romantic with them the actual act of sex or being together is so much less impactful than just the satisfaction of the emotional buildup. So yes, I am writing from a much more emotional place, I think. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} How Annabel Monaghan got into fiction Jenny Wheeler:. Turning perhaps away from the specific books to talk a little bit about your wider career. You’ve had a really interesting career in journalism before you turned to fiction, I wondered if you’d give us an idea of number one, how you came to write fiction and what you were doing in the years before you did turned your hand to writing fiction. Annabel Monaghan: I wrote my first book when I was 37 years old, I didn’t start right off the bat, but I always wanted to be a writer. From forever, like when I was a little kid, I wanted to write. I studied writing in college. But when I was graduating from college, I realized that I would have no way to support myself as a writer. And all of my friends were moving to New York City. And I thought I don’t think this is going to work. I got a job in banking. And I worked in banking for a couple years. I went and got a master’s in business. I went back to banking and I did that until I had children. And then I was at home with children for eight years and I did not start writing until I was 37. It was a very long way to get there. I don’t think that even if I had the opportunity to do it earlier, I would’ve had the confidence to do it. Or really anything to say before I was 37. But a friend encouraged me to write a book with her and I think that it was her confidence that made it happen. And that was really how I got started and then once I got started, I was hooked. Co-writing teenage fiction the beginning Jenny Wheeler: And what was the first book that you wrote together? Annabel Monaghan: We wrote a book called Click, and it was a nonfiction book for teenage girls about positive thinking. It was not a big success, but because we wrote that book, I had a literary agent. As soon as that was over, I started writing my first young adult novel, which was called A Girl Named Digit. And because I had that agent, then she sold that book and then I wrote a sequel to that book. And then I wrote my column – a column for women and mothers that I’ve written for about 12 years. And I was writing that until Covid hit when I sat down and wrote Nora Goes Off Script, which was my first thing that I wrote for adults. Jenny Wheeler: Do you mind me asking? You have got children, I’ve got the feeling that they were sons. Do you have any daughters? Annabel Monaghan: I do not. I keep looking for one. I do not have a daughter. I have three sons. What Annabel’s sons think of her romcoms Jenny Wheeler: And yet you’ve been writing books that are for young women? Annabel Monaghan: Yes. When I was writing my young adult fiction, people used to ask me all the time, how can you write about a teenage girl when you don’t have a daughter? And I thought I was a teenage girl. I still have that teenage girl inside of me. And I find that I understand the emotional life- my own emotional life and the emotional life of my friends, better than I understand what a man’s emotional life is. I’m not going to start writing about my sons, Jenny Wheeler: I guess teenage boys probably are looking for more adventure action stuff if they read it all, aren’t they? Annabel Monaghan: They are, although one of my sons has been wonderful about reading my books and giving me notes and suggestions. I really appreciate that. But for the most part, they’re not reading anything that I would want to write. Jenny Wheeler: That’s really interesting. And does a teenage boy have a very different perspective on your books than maybe that your readers would? Annabel Monaghan: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. one of my sons he read Nora Goes Off Script and his comment was, ‘It’s just so gross, mom. She’s so old.’ She’s 37 years old, engaged in a relationship, or 39 years old, and I thought, wow, is that old? Yes. Thank goodness, they’re not my target reader. Things You Don’t Know About Me… Jenny Wheeler: Lovely. you’ve got a very funny part on your website that talks about Things You Don’t Know About Me, and I noticed there that one of the pieces of advice you give is Marry a Canadian. Now. I thought that was really funny. Annabel Monaghan: You know what? It’s actually great advice. My husband is Canadian and – we shouldn’t be generalizing about large groups of people, but there is something about – including his family, Canadians, I know that don’t get so uptight about everything. They let a lot of stuff go. And they’re very easy going. I love my Canadian husband. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful.. Is one thing that you would ascribe to quotes, ‘the secret of your success’ in the creative area, what would it be? Annabel Monaghan: That’s a great question. Now I would tell you that I have a brilliant editor, so she is the secret of my success. She is so patient and so brilliant with me. But what I think has got me to where I am is being light about it. I don’t sit down and write a paragraph and then toil over it to make it a perfect paragraph before I move on. I don’t take my writing that seriously as I’m going. So, it doesn’t bother me to cut a hundred pages because I didn’t spend six years writing a hundred pages. And I think that part of that is because I’m a little older, I’m just not taking every single thing so seriously. The funny questions Book Clubs ask Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. I noticed that you do have book club questions in your books and I wondered if you did many book club chats and what kinds of questions you got from them that might be surprising to you. Annabel Monaghan: I do a lot of book clubs. Lately people have been asking me and I had never thought of this before, who would I go out with? Leo from Nora Goes Off Script or Wyatt from Same Time Next Summer. I’m getting that question a lot this summer and the answer is, Wyatt, every time I get a lot of questions about, when these are going to be made into movies. I had one question one time that surprised me. A woman asked me if I intended to use such poor grammar in my books. I didn’t know how to answer that. I said I thought it was okay. Jenny Wheeler: You rely on an editor for that anyway, don’t you? Annabel Monaghan: I do. I said, I’ve never heard that before, but thank you for pointing it out. Jenny Wheeler: What did she object to? Was it split infinitives or…? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Annabel Monaghan likes to read Annabel Monaghan: No, you know what it actually, I asked her, I said, can you give me an example? And she said it’s the way people speak. Jenny Wheeler: Ah. Annabel Monaghan: I was explaining to her that people don’t speak in perfect grammar. People speak in fragments and asides. And that’s just how conversation goes. But I thought that was such a funny question. I’ll never forget that. Jenny Wheeler: We always like to ask our authors about their own reading tastes because this is binge reading and we do focus on books that people read for escape and entertainment and pleasure, not necessarily for, improving their minds. What kinds of books do you like to read and what would you like to recommend to our listeners? Annabel Monaghan: My taste in reading – it’s probably because I’m just trying to get away from my own writing. – my taste in reading is generally very murdery. I like murder in England, so I like anything that Lisa Jewell writes. I will buy every single book-  I have bought every single book that she’s ever written. Do you know Lisa Jewell? Amy Poeppel one of her favorite romance authors Jenny Wheeler: I know the name. We haven’t had her on the show yet. Annabel Monaghan: Oh just drop everything and read them all. They’re all just very smart murdery things. I love Elizabeth George, who’s a mystery writer, and oh, I just, I’ll read all of those forever. That’s what I like to read when I’m just doing whatever I want. When I’m reading closer to what I write my very favorite is Amy Poeppel, Jenny Wheeler: Oh yes. Annabel Monaghan: Have you read her The Sweet Spot and Musical Chairs? Jenny Wheeler: Yes! We’ve just had her on in the last few weeks. Annabel Monaghan: Oh, did you? Oh, I think she is absolutely brilliant and I’d love her books, so I can’t wait for the next one. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Fantastic. looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing you’d change about your creative career, what would it be? What Annabel would change… or not Annabel Monaghan: I would’ve loved to have started… well…  the butterfly effect, right? You don’t want to change anything because everything worked out fine. I think that I would’ve loved to have had a little bit more faith in what I was actually good at a younger age. Maybe go work in publishing for a while or work in some capacity with words rather than numbers. I would’ve immersed myself in this life sooner. But having said that, the path you take is the path you take. Jenny Wheeler: But publishing is a business as well as a creative activity, isn’t it? Annabel Monaghan: Yes. Oh, for sure. For sure. Jenny Wheeler: It’s surprising to me actually. There are quite a number of authors. I’d say maybe 25% maybe, or 20% of the people that I ask that question. That is the thing they say. I wish I’d had more confidence in myself as a younger woman or person. Annabel Monaghan: And that doesn’t just apply to my writing career either. I wish that I had always had more confidence. That’s the beautiful thing about getting older. You receive your confidence, you step into your confidence. And it’s a very good feeling. What Annabel Monaghan has got coming up Jenny Wheeler: What is next for Annabella, as author say, looking over the next 12 months, what have you got on your desk that you need to pay attention to? Annabel Monaghan: I have my third novel, it’s called Summer Romance. that is due on July 14th. I am finishing that. I’m feverishly working on that now to get that back to my editor. And then in August, I think I’m going to start my 2025 book. I have a book coming out in June of 2024 and June, 2025, but I have not thought of an idea for the next one, so I’m writing. I’m writing all the time. Jenny Wheeler: Summer Romance will be the June 24 one. Will it? Annabel Monaghan: Yes. Invite me back. I would love to come talk to you about it. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. We’d love to have you. Do you love interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? I. Annabel Monaghan: I love it so much. I can’t tell you what a joyful part of my day it is to pick up my phone and have somebody say something or quote something back to me that mattered to them, and then they tell me why. it is the most magical thing about being a writer. Yes, I love it. My website is annabelmonahan.com and I am Annabelle Monahan on Instagram and Twitter and on Facebook, although I’m not on Facebook very often, I’m mostly on Instagram. Leo or Wyatt? Who would you date? Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. You saying about loving to talk to your readers. I had not thought of that question of who would I like to date, Leo or Wyatt. It’s just fascinating the things that people think of, isn’t it? Annabel Monaghan: It’s wonderful. What’s your answer? Jenny Wheeler: Oh, I think it would be Wyatt as well. Annabel Monaghan: All right. All right, good. I want a trajectory where we’re improving the men with each book. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. I think Leo’s a nice enough chap and he was very restrained towards the end of the book. Annabel Monaghan: Yes, Jenny Wheeler: But Wyatt had a special something. Yes, Annabel Monaghan: He did. Oh, he did. He’s so sweet. Jenny Wheeler: Annabelle, thanks so much. It’s been a delightful chat. Thank you for being willing to come online today. Thank you. Annabel Monaghan: Thank you. I really enjoyed it. If you enjoyed Annabel you’ll also be interested in Amy… Fresh and funny romcoms from one of Annabel’s favorite authors… LISTEN TO AMY Next Week on Binge Reading Next week on binge reading. Madeline Eskedahl, and her Kiwi thriller Rings Of Water, the second book in her best-selling Matakana series. A narcotics pickup at sea goes horribly wrong. A man as lost overboard. A dangerous series of events sends shock waves through the local community. It’s set in a rural seaside community, north of Auckland, New Zealand. Sergeant Bill Granger is hoping for a quiet off-season. Instead, what seems to be a straightforward case of an unfortunate death turns that went to a complex web of small towns secrets and revenge that will soon place Bill and his family in danger. That’s next week on The Joys Of Binge Reading podcast. And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best way to discover the show, and for others to find great books they’ll love to read. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading. If you enjoyed Annabel you’ll also enjoy Amy Poeppel Next Week on Binge Reading

Mark Brandi is an award-winning crime novelist whose fifth book. Southern Aurora – as one reviewer noted, “takes hold of your heart. Breaks it a little, as well as fills it with childlike hope and compassion.” Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And on Binge Reading today, author Mark Brandi talks about how his own experience as an Italian-born Australian has attracted him to write stories about young boys coming of age in hard times, Like Jimmy his lead in Southern Aurora, a character who as one critic said was “impossible not to fall in love with. There’s a Mark Twain innocence and inner wisdom to Jimmy one far beyond most adults as he skirts his underprivileged life, seeking meaning and dreaming of a larger existence.” That’s coming up with Mark in a moment or two Links mentioned in this episode Wimmera, Mark’s award-winning debut novel: https://www.hachette.com.au/mark-brandi/wimmera-the-bestselling-australian-debut-from-the-crime-writers-association-dagger-winner The Rip: https://www.hachette.com.au/mark-brandi/the-rip-from-the-award-winning-author-of-wimmera The Others: https://www.hachette.com.au/mark-brandi/the-others Jane Harper’s The Dry:  https://janeharper.com.au/ Willy Vlautin: https://www.willyvlautin.com/ Sofie Laguna:  http://sofielaguna.com/ Tony Birch:  https://www.harpercollins.com/blogs/authors/tony-birch-202213710733 The Overland train: https://www.journeybeyondrail.com.au/journeys/overland/ Mark’s Writing teacher: Ania Walwicz: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ania_Walwicz The Southern Aurora: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Aurora ‘Grief Invites This Kind Of Magical Thinking.” https://www.theage.com.au/culture/books/mark-brandi-grief-invites-this-kind-of-magical-thinking-20211109-p597eo.html The Anniversary, Stephanie Bishop:  https://www.amazon.com/Anniversary-Stephanie-Bishop/dp/0802161677 One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest, Ken Kesey: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_Nest_(novel) Where to find Mark Brandi online Website: www.markbrandi.com Facebook:  https://www.facebook.com/markbrandiwriter/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mb_randi/ Twitter: @mb_randi/ Ultimate Murder She Wrote Booksweeps Draw For our giveaway this week, we’ve got the BookSweeps, Ultimate Murder She Wrote Swag Pack and Book Basket Draw. For mystery fans, what a prize! $550 worth in full value. A library of mysteries and Murder She Wrote Swag, including an adorable Angela Lansbury t-shirt and tote bag. Included is my Of Gold & Blood Book Bundle 2 – a full length historical mystery – Poisoned Legacy – and a New York Christmas novella, Tangled Destiny. Enter the draw in the show notes for this episode on the website, the joys of binge reading.com. enter ultimate murder she wrote draw https://www.booksweeps.com/giveaway/july2023-win-the-ultimate-murder-she-wrote/ And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review, so others will find us too.  Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Introducing award winning author Mark Brandi Australian literary crime author Mark Brandi Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Mark. Hello there, Mark, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Mark Brandi: Hi, Jenny. It’s great to be with you. Thanks for inviting me on. Jenny Wheeler: Southern Aurora is the book we’re talking about particularly today. It’s your fifth novel, but it’s set in similar locations to the first books that you’ve written. They’re all small town, rural Australia, with characters who generally live on the wrong side of town. They’re seen as literary crime novels. That’s how they’re defined. But the crime aspect in Southern Aurora is slightly downplayed. It’s more of a coming of age novel. Would you agree with that? Mark Brandi: Yes, I think that’s a fair assessment. Jenny. It’s funny with my novels. If I go back to the first one Wimmera, which came out in 2017. It is also set in a small town and has elements of crime in it. But when I wrote it, I never really thought about it as being a crime novel. In fact, I’d actually never read a crime novel before I wrote my first book. It came as a bit of a shock to me when my publisher started marketing it as a crime and as literary crime and saying it was in a similar vein to Jane Harper’s The Dry. I went out and busily read a whole lot of crime books lest I come across as an imposter. But I suppose I’ve never really thought deeply about genre. Character and voice come first When I’m drafting, my starting point always is character and voice. In this case, with Southern Aurora, with this boy Jimmy, who’s around 11 or 12 years old, as you say growing up on the wrong side of the tracks in this small town. His story actually started for me as a short story. I wrote this short story back in, I think it was around 2014, and it was actually based on some experiences I had growing up in a small town. We had a dog who came to an unfortunate end. I wrote a short story based on that experience and fictionalized it of course. And I suppose I kept going back to it and thinking there’s some more to this. There’s something about this which is scratching at me and I need to go further into this story. And that’s where it began, I think that, that age, that kind of 11 or 12 years old is a really crucial age. And for Jimmy, his friends are his whole world. His siblings are his whole world and his family. He’s the kind of kid that takes the world on his shoulders to a large extent. I felt compelled to follow him and to write his story. I was thinking yesterday, I remember reading this quote from William Faulkner and he talked about the writing process somewhat facetiously. He said that, “writing is easy. You just make up these characters and then you follow ’em around and write what they. do.” Telling a story through a child’s eyes Mark Brandi’s award winning debut novel, Wimmera. It resonates with me a bit because that’s the way I feel about my process. I never think about the overarching story at the very beginning. I never think about genre, but crime comes into my stories at some point. I think you’re correct that this book perhaps has less of a crime element to it and fewer of those kind of tropes that you sometimes associate with crime novels Jenny Wheeler: Yes. What is it that attracts you about telling the story through a child’s eyes, do you think? Mark Brandi: I think my psychologist could probably answer that better than me sometimes. Now my first book, Wimmera was in the third person perspective, but the first half of the book was very much focused on these two kids, Ben and Fab. The Rip was an adult story that was set in Melbourne, a contemporary story. But The Others was told through diary entries through this young boy, Jacob. And now of course, Southern Aurora (Published June 28, 2023). And after I finished The Others, my third book I thought, oh, that, that was really hard going. I found that a really tough book to write and I promised myself at that stage that I wasn’t going to do another first person perspective of a child because I find it really tough because you’ve got a limited palette. To work with vocabulary and their wildness and all those sorts of things. The cruelty of the school yard exposed But you need to be able to still craft a compelling story for an adult readership. And I think that’s where the crux of it and some of the appeal of it is for me because it’s a challenge. It’s a constraint. And one of the things I love about that kind of perspective is that the reader will often feel a degree of protectiveness over the protagonist. They’ll be reading a little bit ahead and a little bit more deeply into what is happening and thinking. ‘Oh, no, Jimmy. Don’t think that, or don’t go there. Don’t go with that person. Or, ‘this is a bad move’ and you take on almost like a caring relationship with the character. And I love that as a reader. Like when I think about books so looks I love by Sofie Laguna or Tony Birch, or the American writer Willie Vlautin, who also writes young protagonists. I just get engrossed in that world and I care so deeply about the characters, so that’s probably why I write these kinds of books, because that’s what I love to read ultimately. Jenny Wheeler: The cruelty of the schoolyard is one aspect of this story. Jimmy falls out with the friends that he has, and he is left in this very isolated position. He resorts to going to the library at lunchtime because he doesn’t have anyone to sit with. And that’s a scenario that I think many of us can identify with at some stage or other in our lives. I know that part of your story was that you came to Australia from Italy when you were quite a young person, and I wondered if you had that sense of being a little bit of an outsider or at least a little bit different, and whether that’s helped you to be able to frame these sorts of stories. Mark Brandi – Feeling for the outsider Mark Brandi: That was very much my experience. You hit the nail on the head. Growing up in a small town in Australia, in Western Victoria, we were the only Italian family in town. I had three older brothers. They weren’t born in Italy. I was born in Italy and it it was tough in the school yard. I was the brown kid in the school yard. And I found that really difficult in my primary school years. Again I think that’s probably a something psychologist could answer for me because I guess I do feel a strong ability to be able to write that kind of perspective because I know what that feels like. And now, I don’t want to say that Jimmy is me, or me as a child, or anything like that, because I feel most of my characters, they’ve got elements of me in them for sure. But part of them is people I’ve met, but also just pure creation. Something out of my subconscious. But that was certainly an experience that I drew on that sense of being an outsider. There’s that cliche in country towns that you’re only a local once you’ve got, two or three generations in the cemetery. And I think that, that was our experience. Now I loved growing up in a country town in many respects there were great elements to it. It was that bucolic cliche in some respects of being let out the front door in the morning. Learning some hard life lessons Your parents don’t care where you go as long as you’re back by night. We would go rabbiting, we’d go fishing, looking for yabbies and all that sort of stuff, playing sport with our friends. So that was all great. But certainly, those early years of primary school were very tough and I think that undoubtedly leaves a mark on you. I think that again is probably part of the reason why I write that child’s point of view and while I’m in interested in writing about that experience, because those early years of our life have a huge formative effect on the kind of people that we become. And I can remember some of the things that happened when I was a kid, and certainly the intensity of the relationships that I had with my friends with greater clarity than what I could remember doing last week sometimes. I think that that was something I wanted to bring to the book; is for Jimmy, his relationship with his best mate Danny is really crucial. He’s his one friend at school, and then this other kid enters the frame. Chadwick, who’s a good kid, but it shifts the dynamic between these two friends. And that was something I wanted to explore because kids can be great, kids can be wonderful, but they can be very cruel as well. And Jimmy’s faced with that in the story. He has to learn some pretty difficult life lessons. Southern Aurora a symbol of hope Jenny Wheeler: The Southern Aurora of the title is a train and it represents something of escape from that life, for Jimmy, doesn’t it? Tell us about Southern Aurora. Mark Brandi: The Southern Aurora was a train that used to run from Melbourne to Sydney and Sydney to Melbourne, and for Jimmy living in this fictional town of Mittigunda in New South Wales, he sees the train coming and going and passing through. It has its kind of luxury, “quote unquote” carriages, sleeper carriages. And it represents something I suppose a ray of hope for him that there’s something more to life and something more outside of the town that he’s growing up in and something more than the experiences that he’s facing. And part of my inspiration for it again, came a little bit unplanned, I think from my subconscious when I was writing, that the train was very similar to a train that went through the town that I grew up in in Western Victoria in the 1980s, which was The Overland, that used to run from Adelaide to Melbourne and vice versa. And I was transfixed by this train going through. this is all pre-internet. Days and you didn’t know much about the outside world or the big cities. I didn’t really go to the big cities and neither does Jimmy in this story. So it represents something more something else out there, and it really offers him a ray of hope. And he often goes down there to the cutting, goes with his younger brother, Sam, and watches the train and looks at the people in the carriage. One day, Sam, we’ll be on that train… And, he tells Sam, one day that’ll be us on that train. That felt very important to me, because he’s facing some tough circumstances. His mum is doing it tough. She has issues with alcohol. She has this new boyfriend who’s quite violent and erratic. His older brother Mick has been in trouble with the police is in jail soon to get out. Things aren’t easy for him in his world. It was very important to me to have that symbol of hope for him. Jenny Wheeler: I found it touching. You mentioned his mom’s attachment to alcohol. She drinks a beer called – I think it is a beer, isn’t it? – The Kaiser? I don’t know. Mark Brandi: It’s wine. A cask wine. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, it’s oh, cask wine. Kaiser is like another character in the story to Jimmy, Kaiser is like a friend that comes to family parties and he recognizes sometimes isn’t a good friend, but the Kaiser has a real personality in the story as well. Mark Brandi: Yes. And I should say that I grew up in a pub, so I was very familiar with alcohol and the many different brands of alcohol and what they might represent. And it was funny. My parents ran this pub for about 30 years. And we would have people, in country towns you have people from all walks of life coming in there. There are very democratic places. You have local police, politicians, shearers, farmers, business people. Alcoholics, chronic drinkers the unemployed, some people had just gotten out of jail. All sorts of stories. And I suppose I witnessed those kind of really dependent relationships with alcohol when I was a kid. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} As a publican’s son, alcohol ‘normalized’ But it was quite normalized to me. I never saw it as a stigma in that way. I thought, these are just people. That’s what. They come to the pub and drink during the day, and then they go home and that’s okay. One of the things, my late father really impressed upon me was that everyone has a story. And it’s really important that you stop and listen to them and talk to them. So that was a great lesson because, he would put me when I got old enough, I worked behind the bar. I was a deeply introverted young person, so that was tough for me. But he was like, go talk to the regulars, have a chat to them, and some of them are just lonely and hear them out. That was just wonderful advice and it taught me that some people just have had a bit of bad luck. And things haven’t worked out well for them and there can be a whole lot of complex reasons why people tend to alcohol. Now for Jimmy, looking at his mum and the Kaiser, yeah, it does become a character of its own, and it’s this presence throughout the novel really to varying degrees and it’s symbolic, as well. of Jimmy’s attempts to try to help everyone in his circle. But also sometimes try to control things a little bit too much for a young kid. He tries to look out for his mom, makes sure that she doesn’t drink too much. Things go well with her new boyfriend. He takes this all on his own shoulders and that’s a, a really tough thing for anyone, let alone a young boy. A celebrated teacher’s wisdom Jenny Wheeler: It’s a classic case of children becoming the parent and it’s recognized that’s not a healthy place for a kid to be. He’s obviously a young boy deserving of more support than he gets, but the tone of the book is carefully neutral about assigning any kind of blame anywhere, and he’s dreaming of his life getting better, but he’s stoically accepted it as it is as well. I wondered, tell me how you viewed Jimmy? Do you think he ended up having a good adult life? Mark Brandi: I remember – it might have been one of my tutors when I was studying, like in a TAFE (Technical and Further Education facility) course, I was doing creative writing. I started this course about 10 years ago. Did it for about 12 months, and it was after a long, a pretty long career working in government, working in the justice system for a large part of that I started this writing course. I had this great teacher Ania Walwicz., her name was, she’s now passed away. She’s a poet and a performance artist. And she talked about, and I loved this description, she talked about the best endings being like gateways through which you see the world a bit differently and you can imagine the characters going off beyond the page and what they’re doing now or where they might be or what they might be up to. I think with Jimmy, it’s interesting what you said about the kind of neutrality that I tried to bring to this book because it’s very important to me not to be didactic, not to be trying to write stories with a “quote unquote “message. A delicate balance on social issues I want to tell a compelling story about people in a given situation that’s hopefully, believable and engrossing for a reader. What a reader takes away from that is entirely up to them. I’m always very careful not to direct readers in particular directions. But I think part of the atmosphere that I’m writing these stories in is one of increasing Inequality and disadvantage here in Australia. And the housing is a huge issue. The gaps between the very wealthy and the poor are widening and the ability of people to escape sometimes very difficult situations is getting harder and harder. So even though this book is set in the mid 1980s, these issues are still there and if anything probably more acute now. As for Jimmy, I hope he is doing okay. That’s all I can really say. In my work in the justice system you would see – I worked in the correct corrections area for a while. I was a ministerial advisor and a lot of what we learned about the corrections system is that people just cycle through again and again. And often it’s from situations of a high disadvantage. I think we see that to some extent with Jimmy’s older brother with Mick because he has his repeated contact with the police. And then in ending up in prison. I’ve higher hopes for Jimmy. That’s about all I’m willing to wager at this point. I’m not sure where he’d end up, but I hope he’s doing okay. ‘Never underestimate the intelligence of readers’ The Rip. Mark Brandi’s second novel took a homeless woman, Dani, as it central character… Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned The Rip, your second novel, and that was one where you had an adult protagonist, but she was a homeless woman. And we have skirted around this. There’s definitely that underlying tone of social justice concerns, but you are very light-handed with them, aren’t you? Mark Brandi: I try to be, because again, it comes back to what I like to read. Anytime I get the sense that an author is trying to sell me a message or teach me something, I recoil. I think you have to treat readers with the utmost respect. One of the best pieces of advice I’ve ever got was don’t underestimate the intelligence of your reader. You’ve got to really respect them. There’s definitely this social justice theme. It was partly why I ended up working in government and doing the jobs that I did. Because I, as some people might derisively say, I was a believer and I wanted to improve things for people. I cared about my work and I cared about trying, I suppose to make the community a fairer place for people with more opportunity. I found that tough going sometimes in my professional life, but it was also very rewarding work. Giving the overlooked a platform Even though it was difficult, I can still express some of that feeling in my work and I can follow those themes, but they’re not front of mind when I’m writing with each book. Using the example of the rip, that was probably as much a response again to some of the atmosphere at the time. I wrote it because here in Melbourne, we had and continue to have a big issue with homelessness and what happened around the time that I was drafting that, which was 2017 2018, is that it really hit the headlines because a lot of homeless people had set up camp in C B D because there were some services there. And some of the media took a particular angle on that saying, that this was a an embarrassment to the city and these people should be moved out. They had photos and they continued to do this. In fact, have photos of people shooting up on the street. And I just thought, oh, this is really, it broke my heart a little bit because it just seemed to reflect I suppose a lack of compassion for people who are doing it tough, and I was interested in their stories. Now, I had some contact with people over the years who’d found themselves in tough circumstances through my work and also just in my personal life. And so I felt really compelled to write a story from the perspective of someone who’s living on the streets and in the area that I’m living in now which is lovely area. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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And you’d often see joggers running around there and everyone going about their business. And then there were people sleeping rough underneath the back of a grandstand and pretty much everyone turned a blind eye. I don’t say that is a kind of cold heartedness of people, I think a lot of people just don’t understand or can’t cope with seeing that sort of suffering. I wanted to give some kind of insight into that, but not presented as a sympathy story or anything like that? It was very important to me that the main character Dani, that she had real self-respect and pride and she didn’t make excuses for her situation. I think that the line that she said in the novel was “these aren’t excuses, they’re reasons,” and there’s a difference between reasons and excuses. And I think to some extent that’s true. There were very definite reasons why she was in the situation that she was in. But I don’t write books thinking I’m going to change the world, but at the same time it’s wonderful when people respond. I’ve got emails from people who’ve read The Rip who told me how it changed their view about people in their local area who were perhaps sleeping on the street or begging or just facing really tough situations. Seeing the world through another’s eyes And that just blew my mind a little bit. I don’t expect that through my writing, but it’s certainly again a wonderful by product, I think. It’s part of the beauty of literature that it enables you to see the world through someone else’s eyes. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. You mentioned your dad, who sounds like he was a very wise innkeeper, and you wrote a beautiful tribute to him in the Sydney Morning, Herald Good Weekend Magazine. He died during the Covid lockdown, which was particularly poignant for you, I think. And you titled the piece ‘Grief Invites This Kind Of Magical Thinking. Could you tell us a little bit about that? Mark Brandi: Yeah. Oh, look, my dad, he was, sorry, I get a bit emotional about it, but he was a very unique man. His was a quintessential migrant story. He came over to Australia with nothing but a suitcase and managed to make a go of it. And as you say, he became an innkeeper, ran his own pub and he did a lot of different things in his life. He was always very entrepreneurial and had a lot of self-belief and I think he was one of the great legacies for us as kids because he basically told us, anything you want to do in life, you can do it. Just give it a shot. And he’s part of the reason why I’m a writer. Losing him during Covid and the lockdowns was very hard. Losing a precious parent during Covid It was a terrible time for everyone. The ‘magical thinking’ in that piece…  I used to see in my area, which is next to the cemetery where my father’s buried, I used to see foxes quite often at night when I was walking around in lockdown and. they came to symbolize something for me and something connected with my father, because when we were growing up in the country, we had a farm and we also at one point, in one of the traps said at the farm, we caught a fox. My father took the fox home and we kept it as a pet and basically looked after it. That was a real eye opener for me as a kid. It was confusing because I thought, hang on we’ve set these traps on the farm to protect our sheep from the foxes, but then he’s caught the fox and he is saying, we should look after it. So it was one of the kind of first insights that I had into the complexity of my father and some of the complexities of the adult world as well. It was a really beautiful thing to see these foxes around. They live in the cemetery and it was just a privilege to be able to write about that and to write about my father in that way for the newspaper and, pay some small tribute to him. As a lot of people did, we had a funeral during lockdown, which we could only have 10 people there, so his grandchildren couldn’t come. It was a really a terribly sad time for all of us. But it certainly in our family that was tough. But to be able to write about it and to have people connect with the story is just a beautiful thing. Some of Mark’s work may reach screen The Others – Mark Brandi’s novel optioned for the screen. Jenny Wheeler: I think it’s inspired at least the idea of a documentary film? Has anything gone ahead with that? Mark Brandi: There, there is some work happening. There’s a guy over in the UK, a film producer who is trying to raise money at the moment. I’m sure it could be hard. Probably, the film industry is even tougher than the publishing industry, in a lot of respects, to make projects happen. But he’s working assiduously on that. At the same time, I think The Others, my third book, it’s been optioned recently, so there’s some film interest in that. But all the planets need to align, I think, for anything to happen in the film world. I’ve got my fingers crossed. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, fantastic. Look, we always like to ask our guests about their own reading habits, and we’d love to hear a couple of thoughts from you on books you’d like to recommend for listeners. Mark Brandi: Oh, this year one of my favorite reads has been a book by an Australian author Stephanie Bishop, and it’s called The Anniversary, and it’s a wonderful literary novel, possibly could be classified as literary crime. It certainly has a crime in it. Stephanie is a beautiful writer at the sentence level, like it was one of those books where I found myself rereading passages and pages going back and rereading them again because they just took my breath away. I’m in awe of writers who can do that. And you don’t come across books. I certainly don’t, anyway, many books that really make me stop and reflect and go, wow, this is a book by a writer who has just sublime gifts. What Mark Brandi is reading now I highly recommend that. The Anniversary. One book I’m reading at the moment, which is a bit of an old one, is One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest by Ken Keasey which was a gift to me. My brother gave to me. It’s an old second hand book from a second hand bookshop. But I love those old second hand books that’s got the very seventies style cover. It really takes you back. And it’s a very immersive story. I’m sure many of your listeners probably have read the book and if not have seen the film, which is fantastic, with Jack Nicholson. I’d only ever seen the film, so it’s always great to read the source material and get a different insight into a story that you love. I love that film. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. I’m really interested in how you made the transition from your life in the justice system to becoming a writer. How did that transfer occur and was it a light bulb moment where you thought, oh, I must just must write? How did that come about? Mark Brandi: I loved books and I loved writing, and writing came quite easily to me as a kid. I think I grew up in a family of storytellers too. My older brothers and my dad were big storytellers – verbal storytellers, and. I was surrounded with the books as well that my brothers read. My eldest brother was into Stephen King.so I read a lot of his books at an age where I was probably could be too young to be reading them. But even comic books that one my brothers was into. I was surrounded with a lot of books and a lot of reading and I loved writing in school. A one in a million shot in the Hot Seat But I guess I reached a point where, growing up in a small town, when you’re looking at career options? We had a gold mine in the town. We had an abattoir. And then there was the family business, the pub. My parents were very insistent that I go to Uni and try to make something of myself, and I initially studied law which I dropped out of. And after a lot of, failed courses, eventually I finished with a criminal justice degree It was really just pragmatism that I ended up working in those areas because I couldn’t see how writing could be a career, that I could have a creative career. I didn’t really see a pathway for that, but I suppose I did reach a point where I felt like I’d had enough of working in an office environment and I wanted to do something new. I wanted to give writing a crack and I saw a career counselor who recommended that I try that and go part-time. I had a mortgage at that stage. It was really difficult and so I ended up, this is a bit of a strange story, I ended up funnily enough going on a game show here in Australia. My brother recommended it to me. It was Millionaire Hot Seat, and I was terrified. And I went onto this game show. I thought I’d just humiliate myself and everyone would see it, but I was lucky enough to win. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} A debut award winner was rejected twice I won a modest amount of money. I didn’t win the top prize or anything like that anywhere near, but it did enable me to go part-time at work and then start doing the writing course at TAFE. And so that was really where it began. I never set out, I never went into that writing course thinking I’m going to write a novel. I just thought, I’ll do this course and I’ll see what interests me, what I enjoy, if anything really connects with my skills and what I want to do. And I tried to be as open-minded as possible. I studied short story there, corporate writing, all of sorts of different facets of writing. And we had a lot of great teachers who were writers themselves. And so I think partly just the hothouse of that environment and also the informal writing groups that began out of that between fellow students that helped me shape my first novel Wimmera. When I finished Wimmera, that was rejected initially everywhere. I had an agent, but it got rejected by every publisher. Sometimes they rejected it twice. It was a disheartening experience, but it was really after winning the Debut Dagger, (Crime Writer’s Association Debut Dagger, in 2016) for an unpublished manuscript over in the UK that really changed things and helped me get that book published, which is where it all started. The Green Lantern opened Mark’s door It’s been an unusual pathway to being a writer, but as I’m sure you find when you speak to authors, every story is different. No one’s got a linear path to writing Everyone’s experience is different. And, if I hadn’t have had that professional experience working the justice system, if I hadn’t have grown up in a pub and met all those people from all walks of life I don’t think I would be the writer I am now. I couldn’t write about the kinds of stories and characters that I do. All of that experience helps me. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Look, I am curious. Millionaire Hot Seat. Was it a general knowledge show? Show like the Chaser and those ones? Mark Brandi: Yes. It was a trivia show. And I ended up in the Hot Seat as they call it, for just one question. I only had to answer one question on the whole show, so there was a lot of luck Jenny Wheeler: Oh my goodness. What was the question? Mark Brandi: It was about the Green Lantern, the comic book character. It was about where he got his superpowers from. It was a multiple choice, so they said it his power belt, his power ring. There was a couple of other options there. I’d read a lot of comics when I was a kid, but I hadn’t read the Green Lantern. So, it ended up just being a guess. Feeling like “I’d robbed a bank” – Mark Brandi I had a one in four chance, and I was lucky enough to get it. iI was the power ring. I was very fortunate. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s marvellous! Mark Brandi: I felt like I’d robbed a bank when I left there. I really felt just yeah, it was a very surreal experience. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time if there is one thing about your creative career that you’d change, what would it be? Mark Brandi: Oh. I think I probably would’ve stopped a bit more when Wimmera went out into the world and was being read and quite well received by readers and reviewers and things like that. I think if I could go back, I would just stop and appreciate those moments a little bit more. I don’t think at that stage I really understood how fortunate I was. So many great books are published every year by great writers, and a lot of books go unpublished as well for a variety of reasons. Whether the timing’s not right or there’s a similar book in a publisher’s list, there can be a whole host of factors. I wouldn’t say I took it for granted, but I just had no benchmark against which to judge my experience. So I looked at it and thought, oh, this is just normal. This is what happens. Taking time to smell the roses But now I look back on it and think, wow, I was incredibly lucky. And it was like getting struck by lightning in a lot of ways. I’ve learned from that experience, in some ways. The reception a book gets though is very much secondary for me. Always. The greatest moments for me in writing is that feeling after whatever number draft it is, it might be, draft 15, might be draft 20. Wherever. I’m up to that feeling that I’ve got it down that it’s more or less finished, that it’s doing the things that I hoped it would do. That I’ve done some sort of justice to the character characters in their story. That feeling of satisfaction that’s what it’s all about for me. It’s a great moment. I love the writing process. It can be really hard, but that is what keeps me at the desk and working. If I was just thinking about those secondary things about winning an award or getting a good review or sales and all that stuff, that’s just all out of your control really. All you can control is just producing the best work that you can, and anything that happens after that is a bonus really. I think I would stop and smell the roses a little bit more is probably the crux of what I’m saying. What Mark Brandi’s next year looks like Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely and that’s a nice place to round things off because we are starting to run out of time. What does your next 12 months look like? What have you got on your desk and what are you working on? Mark Brandi: Ooh. I’ve got a project, which I’m still in the early ideas stage of I and my process – I wouldn’t even dignify it by calling it a process, actually. I’ve got a Word document that I keep in a folder, and I throw ideas in there as they come to me. It’s not as though I don’t sit down and think about the concept for the next book and go, okay, what’s it going to be about? Who are the characters, et cetera. I have a broad idea about the kind of story I want to write, and then it’s a process of gathering information and sometimes it can be from the kind of strangest sources. Like I recently subscribed to a philosophy magazine, the New Philosopher, which is fantastic. And I read a lot of articles in that, which really opened my mind about different perspectives on how the world works and about our place in it. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Inspiration comes from unusual places Inspiration for what I write can come from pretty unusual sources sometimes. I’m just trying to keep an open mind at this stage about what that story might be I’m contractually obligated to deliver it to my publisher by the middle of next year. We’ll see how that goes.  I’m hopeful of getting there, but aside from that I’m just really focused now on, on going out and meeting readers and doing some events to talk about Southern Aurora to talk about these characters, and it’s, yeah, it’s just a wonderful thing. I first started writing this book back in 2015 when I started the novel from that short story. So eight years later, it’s wonderful to finally almost have it out in the world. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful actually. That’s a great place because the last question we usually do ask is about interacting with readers. Where they can find you either online and in person. I presume most of yours is in person. Some stuff is in Australia, but are you doing any a international events? Where to find Mark promoting his book Mark Brandi: Not at this stage, but I’m hopeful down the track. I’m doing a few events interstate, which will be nice. My last book came out during the lockdowns, during Covid, so I had a full schedule laid out, which then got canceled. It was a bit disheartening and anti-climactic I would say. I’m really looking forward to going out and meeting readers and I would certainly love to head over to New Zealand at some stage or elsewhere.  I went to the Ubud Writer’s Festival in Bali a few years back and that was wonderful. I think I’ve seen more of the world and certainly more of Australia through my books and doing events than I otherwise would have. So it’s definitely an unexpected benefit of having my books out in the world. Jenny Wheeler: Do you communicate online? Where can they find you? Where to find Mark Brandi online Mark Brandi: Social media can be a bit of a trap for authors, I think, because we can spend too much time on there. I try to limit that to a half an hour or so a day. But I’m mostly found on Instagram. If people just search for Mark Brandi, I think my handle is, @mb_randi/ and likewise on Twitter. Facebook is @markbrandiwriter Or if people want to get in touch they can go to my website too. It’s www.mark brandi.com. There’s a contact form there. And that also has all my events as well coming up. If anyone wants to get along, if they’re able, that would be great. I’m always happy to meet readers anywhere, anytime. Jenny Wheeler: Marvellous, we’ll put all of those links in the show notes for this episode as well so people will be able to find them online as well. Mark, thank you so much for being our guest today. It was really fun to talk. Mark Brandi: Great. Thanks, Jenny. You loved it. If you enjoyed Mark you may also be interested in… Adrian Hyland is an another award-winning Australian author of twisty crime stories that are perfect for the fans of Jane Harper, The Dry and Chris Hammer’s Scrublands. In this episode of Binge Reading, Adrian talks about Canticle Creek = his latest novel, combining complex and engaging characters, heart racing plot lines, and whip smart writing that captures the spirit and natural landscape of the Australian Heartland. listen to adrian hyland Next Week on Binge Reading Jenny Wheeler: Next week on binge reading. Romance author Annabel Monaghan and Same Time Next Summer, the ultimate nostalgic read about an engaged woman who comes face to face with her first love, who she hasn’t seen in 14 years. It’s an unforgettable love story, bursting with the magic of first love. It’s everything you want in a summer romance. That’s next week on Binge Reading. That’s it for today. See you next time and happy reading.

Kelly Rimmer’s sweeping World War Two historical suspense has sold more than 2 million copies worldwide and made international best seller lists, including the New York Times, The Wall Street Journal and USA Today. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And on Binge Reading today, Kelly talks about her latest historical saga, The Paris Agent and two otherwise ordinary women who become spies in World War II France. It’s a powerful story which threads their lives – they are real life woman – into history, leaving an indelible story of courage and family ties. Giveaway This Week – Beach Books In our Giveaway this week, we have Page Turners For The Beach, a wonderfully entertaining, light hearted holiday mix to download for free including Hope Redeemed, a Spanish novella, #6 in my own Of Gold & Blood California mystery series. You’ll find the links for where to download these free books in the show notes for this episode on the website, The Joys Of Binge Reading.com. DOWNLOAD BEACH pageturners https://books.bookfunnel.com/pageturnersforthebeach/imv7lrf7i4 And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for other people to discover the show and great books they will love to read. Links to people and places in the episode Violette Szabo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violette_Szabo F Section of SOE:  F-Section,  Diana Rowden:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Rowden SOE Special Operations Executive: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Operations_Executive M. R. D. Foot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._R._D._Foot Henri Dericourt: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henri_D%C3%A9ricourt Nicolas Bodington: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Bodington Kelly Rimmer, The Things We Cannot Say: https://www.amazon.com.au/Things-We-Cannot-Say/dp/1525823566 Scrivener Writing Software: https://www.literatureandlatte.com/scrivener/overview Aeon Timeline:  https://timeline.app/blog/introducing-aeon-timeline-3/ CSIRO Parkes Observatory:  https://www.parkes.atnf.csiro.au/ Wernher von Braun: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun. Polin: Polish Museum of Jewish History: https://polin.pl/en/about-museum Irena Sendler:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irena_Sendler. Irena’s Children: https://www.amazon.com.au/Irenas-Children-Extraordinary-Warsaw-Ghetto/dp/1476778515 All Adults Here by Emma Straub:  https://www.amazon.com.au/All-Adults-Here-Emma-Straub/dp/1594634696 Dear Mrs Bird by A. J. Pearce:  https://www.amazon.com/Dear-Mrs-Bird-AJ-Pearce/dp/1501170066 Bookouture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bookouture Where to find Kelly online Website: Kellyrimmer.com Twitter: Kelrimmerwrites Instagram: kelrimmerwrites Facebook: @kellymrimmer Introducing historical suspense author Kelly Rimmer But now here’s Kelly. Hello, via Kelly and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Kelly Rimmer: Hi, Jenny. It’s so good to be here. Kelly Rimmer Historical suspense author Jenny Wheeler: Now I think you are somewhere in Central New South Wales, Australia. And for, we’ve got a lot of international listeners. So for them, new South Wales is the state that has Sydney as its main Kelly Rimmer: right. That’s right.  As you know, it’s quite a big state, and there’s this big mountain range at the edge of Sydney, and then there’s this whole beautiful countryside on the other side. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. you’ve written about something a long distance from Australia. The Paris Agent is your latest book. It’s a fascinating dual timeline mystery with multiple romance lines moving from England and World War Two to the 1970s with the daughter of one of those people that was involved in the war. You’ve written more than a dozen novels and the most recent ones have all been historical. I’m interested in how you made that transition and how you feel about historicals themselves. Kelly Rimmer: I didn’t mean to become a historical fiction writer. My second book, which was published digitally, was set around the forced adoption scandal in Australia, in the fifties, sixties and seventies. And, that was my first taste of historical fiction. But as I said, I wasn’t a huge historical fiction fan, and I was following stories that piqued my interest. The Things We Cannot Say The Things We Cannot Say – Kelly Rimmer’s story sparked by Polish refugee grandparents And this all culminated in a story that I’d been daydreaming about for a long time, since I was pregnant with my son, who’s 14 this year. It’s inspired by my own family history. My grandparents were Polish Catholics who were displaced by the war. And I wrote a book called The Things We Cannot Say.  I loved that experience so much that I’ve accidentally continued with historical fiction since then. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s wonderful. I didn’t actually realize there was a family connection with that book. The Things We Cannot Say. Kelly Rimmer: Yes. my grandparents, it’s not exactly their story, but it was inspired by the fact that we didn’t know what their story was and we knew we never will. My grandfather in particular is a complete mystery because they came to Australia by Ahan, a refu, a displaced persons camp in Hah, where they lived for several years, and they ended up in Fremantle and then from Fremantle to Blacktown in Sydney. They really reinvented themselves after that. I was in my early thirties, reflecting on the fact that I’m part of an Australian family. And I asked myself how did we end up here? My grandparents were Polish. So it came out of that. A story inspired by spy Violette Szabo Violetta Szabo a courageous SOE spy in France Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. tell us something about The Paris Agent, the stories premise. Tell us how you got into this. Kelly Rimmer: My daughter’s name is Violette. It’s a family name from my husband’s side. And when I was pregnant with her, and we were talking about names, you do the Googling thing, trying to think about famous people with this name. Or what the meaning of the name is. And I stumbled upon Violette Szabo, who was an SOE agent, in the F section of the SOE. Her story was so inspiring and had stuck with me. I loved the idea that we were naming my daughter after someone so incredible. And I had always intended, always hoped that I would come up with the right premise to write a book that was inspired by her. And, maybe two or three years ago, I heard a podcast about Diana Rowden, who is another SOE agent, who I had never heard of, even though I’d done a little bit of reading about the SOE. And I’ve also found her to be just such an incredible woman. The idea for this book came out of their stories, their real-life stories. Balancing fact and fiction in historical narrative It’s fiction. I’ve taken a few liberties here and there with their stories. And they weren’t actually close friends, but in my book, my characters inspired by them are friends. But for the most part, where I could, I followed the real history. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Now in your story, Charlotte, the daughter, they are recently bereaved. Her mother has died. She’s an only child, and her father’s terribly distressed by the death of his wife. She starts to feel that perhaps it would help him get over his grief if he reconnected with someone that he’d always said he wanted to find in the war. A friend. She decides that she’s going to help him to find this man, who he credits with saving his life at one stage. And she opens, as they say, the proverbial can of worms, doesn’t she? Tell us a bit about that. Kelly Rimmer: Yes, so, best of intentions, they decide to look into his past. He knows he was injured in his service in the SOE, but he can’t remember much about the day he was injured because he has got a brain injury and obviously there’s a fair degree of trauma there as well. They scratched the surface of the past, trying to find the agent who he believes saved his life. Through that investigation they realize that the whole scenario was much more complicated than he remembered, and they discovered the stories of Josie and Eloise, who are my two, agents in my story, my protagonist in my historical threads of this story. Betrayed in head office before they ever got to the enemy Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Part of its foundation is the understanding that’s emerged since the war that the Special Operations Executive, the branch of the British Secret Service that handled all of the dispensing of agents over France. The ones that were so tremendously brave as to jump out of planes into enemy territory and work to support the Resistance… Some of those people were betrayed from within the SOE even before they set foot on French soil. And that’s all emerged rather more recently. Can you talk a about that whole situation? When did you become aware of it? Kelly Rimmer: I started reading a book by M.R.D. Foot, who was the official historian for the SOE, and quickly realized it’s such a different world (they were operating in.) It’s only 80 odd years ago, but it’s such a different world that the SO E was operating in and information was so much harder to move around. Michael Foot, M.R.D. Foot talks about ‘the fog of war,’ which is a phrase I’ve used in the book to explain how the SOE lost agents and lost information. If we had a major event like a war now, obviously you would have data retention policies and you’d be squirreling away every little piece of information that you can, but that wasn’t the case, particularly at the end of the war. There’s plenty of scenarios where agents landed and were met by Nazi troops on the ground as they were landing. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Henri Dericourt – a likely traitor, protected by bosses In hindsight, it’s very clear that there were people in the SOE who were betraying information through to the Nazis, but at the time they were operating blind in so many ways. As soon as I came across that idea and this, gentleman named Henri Dericourt, who was thought to have potentially been quite senior in the SOE, and was very good friends with his second in command, best friends/ He was eventually tried for being a double agent, but was acquitted most likely because his friend Nicolas Bodington, perjured himself to get his friend off. As soon as I came across that story, I thought it would be really interesting to write about these agents who have the best of intentions. Who have taken to their training with every, ounce of energy and, and dedication that they have and who go off hoping that they can do something to turn the tide of the war. But they’re really fighting an uphill battle because there are people within the SOE who are working against them. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And the other terrible thing is that they did not enjoy the normal protection of the rules of engagement of war. Did they tell us what their likely fate was, if that when they did get captured? Unprotected by the Geneva Convention Diana Rowden – another remarkable English agent in France Kelly Rimmer: That’s right. They were not uniformed and they didn’t have the protections of the Geneva Convention, so they were treated terribly. There are most horrific stories about their treatment if they were captured, because the Nazis saw them as illegitimate operatives in their territory. They would kill them, or capture them and basically torture them. It was horrendous. Jenny Wheeler: The professor that you refer to, he obviously was a real life person. In your book Charlotte and her dad made contact with him to see what he can tell them about this agent that her father’s tracking down. Tell us about the process of balancing fact and fiction. You’ve got a lot of real-life characters whose stories you’re dealing with. How do you manage that fact and fiction aspect of it? Kelly Rimmer: Yes, in this book in particular, I found that really challenging. I’ve written quite an extensive author’s note at the end of this book explaining what’s fact and what’s fiction because there are so many real people who inspired different aspects of this story, I’ve connected them in ways that they didn’t necessarily, the real characters didn’t necessarily connect, because as a novelist, particularly as a historical fiction novelist, you’re trying to balance honoring history and people’s real stories. You want to be telling a cohesive and, engaging story. There’s this creative tension versus the ethics of using people’s real stories. Michael Foot – the official historian This time, I followed the history quite closely in many aspects of the book, but in other aspects, I have taken liberties and moved things around and moved people around. So it’s all there in the author’s note. Michael Foot operated professionally as M. R. D. Foot was the official historian to the SOE, and he did write a book about the SOE which is how we know so much about it. It took him years to get it published. In 1964, he was finally given permission to publish it. And that’s why we can, from the comfort of our homes, read and get a real insight into the things that were going on. But the secrecy around the SOE was so intense that it was drilled into these agents from the very beginning of their kind of connect. They would be approached and recruited. from the very beginning, it was really drilled into them that every aspect of this is absolutely top secret. And so even after the war, the government did obscure and there were, documents destroyed accidentally. Documents destroyed intentionally. There was a fire, there was genuinely a fire in the Baker Street Records which mostly took out records related to the Belgium section of the SOE, but it did destroy a whole bunch of information that would’ve been great for historians to access. Did the triple spy fake his own death? Henri Dericourt – body never found after ‘Air Opium’ crash… And so I used all of those scenarios and then wrote a fictional version of Michael Foot because this character was going to be integral in my story. I think where Michael Foot alive, he would be very disinterested in being the star of a novel, so, him personally, I haven’t based the actual character on him, but rather on his job. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And I did look up Henri Dericourt because I was rather fascinated by the whole story. I see that he died in rather mysterious circumstances after the war. Although, as you say, he wasn’t convicted, it seems like his reputation was in indelibly tarnished. Tell me what you think happened to him because he died mysteriously and his body was never found. Kelly Rimmer: That’s right. He found it very difficult to reestablish himself, even after he was acquitted and he eventually ended up working in Laos for a – the nickname of the route he was flying – he was a pilot — was Air Opium. That should give you some insight into what he was doing. He died. I think it was 1962. He was on a plane that was loaded with gold. It crashed and his body was never recovered. There is speculation that he may be faked his own death and started a new life, which is so unfair – if it did happen it’s so unfair to think that this man will get off scot-free. I hate the thought of it, but is a possibility, most likely. Kelly Rimmer’s remarkable writing process Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Were the bodies of the other people on the plane found? Kelly Rimmer: You know, I don’t know that, but I assume that the gold was recovered if there was gold there. I can’t imagine a plane full of gold crushing and nobody bothering to get the gold back. Jenny Wheeler: Exactly. Yeah. The story is intricately plotted and I’d be really interested, and I’m sure the listeners would too, to hear how you approach writing a book like this. What’s your process? Kelly Rimmer: I’m not a super organized person in any other facet of my life, but when I write, I am an obsessive plotter. Before I start writing, I usually know the first and last sentences or have an idea of the first and last sentences. I do know exactly what will happen in every scene and I usually plan out where the story’s going, particularly with a multiple narrative story like this, I generally have an idea when I’m going to switch narratives. I write quite a long outline and then I use  Scrivener to manage my writing. I move that across into Scrivener, and then I write it in chapters. Not necessarily in order, because when if I feel like I’m getting blocked, it usually means I haven’t spent enough time daydreaming about that scene, and so I will skip the scene and go on something else that does feel like it’s going to flow. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Multiple time lines – real and fictional But I know basically where the story’s going. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t surprises. I get surprised. I’ll be writing and I’ll think, ‘oh, that’s a good idea.’ I go with that creative energy when it comes. But I also track my timelines really extensively with software called Aeon Timeline. The timeline for this book was crazy. I had things everywhere. I usually had one timeline for real history. And then I have timelines for each character and where they intersect. If I’m moving things or taking liberties with things, I make notes about that so I know when I’ve done it. It is a weird combination of obsessive planning and then the chaos of the creative mind. Jenny Wheeler: The other thing that made this one slightly more complicated again, is that of course all her agents have two names. They have their real name and they have their name in the field. So even as a reader, you have to try and keep track of when it’s Josie. Now, hang on. Which one’s Josie, because that’s her agent name. That must have added to it all. Surviving Ross River fever by dictation The Warsaw Orphan by Kelly Rimmer – the untold story of Irena Sendler and her team of 12 Kelly Rimmer: They often had more than one name, so they would have an operative name and they’d have all different names that they would use in a field because they’d have multiple different fake IDs. It was a case of, I need to simplify this because I can’t have one character that has six or eight names through the book. I’ve kept it to a few, but it is a case of part of the intrigue of it. That high secrecy that I was talking about is that these people really abandoned their own identity. to become other people. I’ve tried to give readers a hint of that in the way that I’ve done the using their code names. Jenny Wheeler: Before we began recording, you also were mentioning that you quite often use dictation as part of your production process. Where does that come in? Kelly Rimmer: Well, when I working on maybe third book, I had Ross River Fever and I had very sore hands. I was really struggling to type. I go a little bit crazy when I’m not writing. It’s my favorite thing to do. I was desperately trying to find a way to keep writing when without breaking my joints. I started tinkering around with dictating into an old school manual transcriber and then down the track I started using software called Dragon Dictate. And at first, it was really difficult because you have to train the software, and you have to train yourself. The transporting to Scrivener software It’s a really different process, but over time it’s become second nature. So now almost all of my first draft is usually dictated. I then edit with the keyboard. I try to write conversationally. I don’t want the book to feel inaccessible. I always want my stories to feel like you’re having a conversation with a friend and they’re telling you something that happened. For me, speaking the story, the first draft of the story is really integral. Part of that process of getting the tone and the voice right. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. And so then do you put it into Scrivener after you’ve done that dictate? Kelly Rimmer: Yes. Unfortunately, I can’t dictate straight into Scrivener. I usually dictate into Notepad or something and then move it into Scrivener where I pretty it up. I don’t edit as I go, as a lot of writers do. I write the first draft in a race to the end. I write as quickly as I can to finish the first draft because I am a much better editor than I am writer. I think that first draft is a mess. Jenny Wheeler: If it comes out good in the end, you don’t have to be worried about that, do you? Kelly Rimmer: I try. I don’t want to break the process because it is working quite well so far. But yes, it is pretty messy. World War II stories in Warsaw and the US Wernher von Braun (in suit) with German officers in 1941. Bundesarchiv Jenny Wheeler: You’ve done five or six historical novels now, haven’t you? But two of the more recent ones that preceded this, one was set in Germany and the other in Poland. You’ve mentioned your Polish origins, but this is another Polish book. The German one was The German Wife and the Polish one was The Warsaw Orphan. And both of those dealt with fascinating true life situations. The German Wife deals with Operation Paperclip. I’ve never heard the name of that operation, but it was a controversial secret US intelligence program that employed former Nazis after World War II. Now, these were the famous scientists, the ones who’d known about the atomic bomb and such. But tell us about the premise for The German wife and how you turned it into an interesting novel? Kelly Rimmer: Yeah, I was at Parkes, because there’s a radio telescope there that helped relay the moon footage when the moon landing happened. There was a big commemorative festival for the moon landing. And I was wondering through the festival and there a marquee where they had historical information about that event. And I’ve read this one line that said ‘from 1950 the Americans took German scientists to the US and they worked on the early rocket program, which eventually led to the US landing on the moon.’  And I read that line and I was writing other World War II books, I think I was probably finishing The Warsaw Orphan at the time. Operation Paperclip and Wernher von Barun The German Wife – the story behind Operation Paperclip by Kelly Rimmer And the idea that the US would take Nazi scientists and basically, lift them, dump them in America and leave them as free citizens to work because they saw the science as valuable enough to unsavory aspects of their past. That blew my mind. I just could not believe that that was a thing. I quickly fell down a rabbit hole of Operation Paperclip, researching it. By the time I got home that night – it’s about an hour and a half drive – by the time I got home, I had the idea for the book pretty much co concreted in. I found it to be so incredible, how does everybody not know that, about this? Even Americans don’t know very much about this. Because it was initially kept so secret and the Americans very much wanted to convince their public that they would, yes, they were bringing some Germans over, but if any of them were Nazis, then they can’t come. These are good Germans, but it was much more complex than that. And so this story follows this character. He’s very loosely based on Wernher von Braun. Who was the chief US rocket scientist, but who was also an SS officer back in Germany and was potentially right at the cusp of some absolutely hideous aspects to the German rocket program. It follows the story of a family involved in the Nazi Rocket program and their journey to the US and what it was like landing in Huntsville and mingling it freely in this little town full of Americans. Some of them hated the Germans and didn’t want them there. Some of them -because the town was kind of dying – some of them were so grateful to have the rocket program base there that they were happy to overlook any suspicions that they had. It’s very interesting stuff. Irena Sendler and the unnamed team Irena Sendler – rescued Jewish children from the Warsaw Ghetto Jenny Wheeler: They were effectively rehabilitating Nazis, weren’t they? Kelly Rimmer: They were, yes. Or, at least, whitewashing their past and hoping nobody ever found out about it. Jenny Wheeler: And then The Warsaw Orphan was inspired by a real life Jewish heroine who saved the lives of thousands of Jewish children. We’ve heard about a number of these heroic figures, but I don’t think we’ve heard very much about this one. Kelly Rimmer: I was in Poland in 2017 researching for The Things We Cannot Say, and I was at the Polin, which is a museum of Jewish history in Warsaw. It’s actually my favorite museum that I’ve ever been to. It’s this incredible building and this incredible, display of thousand years of Jewish history in Poland. And I was in the gift shop afterwards and I saw this book. Called Irena’s Children, and I had never heard of Irena Sendler. I bought the book and then started reading it and really quickly became, again, down the rabbit hole. Irena was a Polish Catholic woman, a social worker who coordinated this team of about 12 people to go into the Warsaw Ghetto and then sneak children out, and then hide them in, Catholic families on the other side of the walls around the ghetto. A women’s rescue op like Schindler’s And all through Poland, they managed to get them out into convents and orphanages, and they’d do things like, they would have the Jewish boys live as girls, so that nobody would check that they were circumcised or not. They would dye children’s hair, they would teach them Polish, they would teach them Catholic prayers so that if the Nazis tried to interrogate them, they would be able to pass convincingly as Catholic. But the thing that really struck me as I read about Sandler was that in lots of the literature about her, there is this little phrase like ‘Irena Sendler and her team of 12, mostly women workers.’ These women, these unnamed women, for the most part, women, every day were risking their lives to sneak into the ghetto, which is like hell on earth, sneak in and risk their lives to sneak children out, and the historical record doesn’t even name them. I was really interested to write a book that was based around a member of that team. It’s not a sequel to The Things We Cannot Say, but my main character from The Warsaw Orphan is a minor character in The Things We Cannot Say. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s gorgeous. What got you started writing fiction? Was there a kind of light bulb moment? You say now you love writing so much, it’s essential for your being. Has it always been like that? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Captured by Heidi’s magic at age 8 Kelly Rimmer: Yes. My dad tells me, that in kindergarten, I told him I was going to be a writer. I don’t remember that. I do remember crying in kindergarten because we had these, storyboards with, you know, little, Velcro words that we could make sentences with on felt. And my teacher made me put it down to go out to the playground to play. It’s one of my first memories, but it really switched on for me when I read Heidi. I think I was eight, and I read Heidi. I remember it was – we were living in Sydney at the time – and I remember just being so absorbed by that book. I’m in the Swiss Alps with the grandfather and I’m smelling the hay and eating the goat cheese, and then I put the book down and I’m in my bedroom in Western Sydney I was just like, what magic is this? I always wrote for fun. I was probably 13 or 14 when I wrote my first novel length handwritten stack of papers like this. But it was always my hobby. Over the years I just wrote and wrote and wrote, and I would edit and then discard. I was writing just for myself. It has always been my thing. I love to read too, and I think that’s how I learned to write. It was from reading voraciously. But now it’s essential to my life as breathing. I can’t imagine not doing it. Jenny Wheeler: And those things that you wrote say in your teens, what sort of books were they? Kelly Rimmer: They were awful. They were terrible. I’m so happy that we lost them all when we moved. I would be so embarrassed to read them now, There were all kinds of things. I’ve always had a real interest in speculative fiction. I don’t write in this genre now, but I’ve always had a real interest in speculative fiction. And so lots of reimaginings of the future. Favorite theme – unlikely people in teams Some quite dark and dire because I was a moody teenager. And then, other times I’ve always been fascinated about connections between people. So even then I was tinkering with family dramas and stories about people without teams. I really like the idea of writing about people that, unlikely people that make teams. That’s always been kind of my, doesn’t matter what the setting is, that’s really at the heart of all of my stories. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. What was the first one that, that, where did you get the intersection to seriously getting published? How did that happen? Kelly Rimmer: I had it in my head. So, keep in mind I was seriously writing from 14 and I always thought that by the time I was 35 I’d be a career writer. I don’t know where that number came from. It came from somewhere, but always I thought 35, by then I’ll be a proper grownup, and I’ll be able to write, that’s how it’s going to be. A shock birthday led to Kelly getting published And I woke up on my 33rd birthday and I had never told anyone, and I hadn’t finished any of my writing, and I had this real crisis that day of like, I’m nearly thirty-five. I t takes a long time to get published and I’m not even trying. I made a spreadsheet of all different publishers. there were big publishers there and little publishers there, and I really thought it all seemed too hard to be honest with you. I would look at publishing form submission guidelines and it’d be like, format the document this way. And I was very intimidated by all of that. especially because even some of my closest friends didn’t know I was writing My husband knew that I was a writer, I don’t think he understood how much, how determined I was, and how important it was to me, because I was quite embarrassed about it. I always used to think, who am I to think I can tell a story that people would want to read? That seems really silly, but that was the prevailing voice in my head for a really long time. Then I let some friends read an   early draft of what became Me Without You, which was my first published book. And they were so encouraging and they were all so shocked, but they were so kind about it. Choosing the right publisher a key And I was out at dinner with some of them and they were saying to me, you’ve gotta do this. you’re so good at this, give it a go. And on my spreadsheet there was this little tiny digital publisher in the UK that was very new but I thought they had really good potential to grow and their name was Bookouture and I submitted to them and they took that book. Hachette has bought them out, and they’re massive. Probably one of the best digital publishers in the world So I went out for dinner with some friends who were, very encouraging about the early draft that they’d read. And when I went home, I really impulsively, it was actually middle of the night, exactly what you’re not supposed to do. I submitted the manuscript and they ultimately published it. And, my whole career started from there. I did four books with them and they grew and grew and I rode their coattails and here we are. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. So now Booker is owned by a big publishing. Company, aren’t they? Kelly Rimmer: They are now. They weren’t at the time, When I first signed with them, Oliver Rhodes who was the founder who had worked with some big publishers before. It was actually his pedigree that attracted me to the company Being IT savvy also a big bonus I’d read some interviews he’d done and he seemed to have such a great vision for digital publishing, and so it was him and a part-time publicist, and now they’ve got dozens of staff and they’ve grown exponentially over the years since then. Jenny Wheeler:  Before you got to that key moment at 33, when you looked at yourself and thought, how am I going get published by the time I’m 35? What had you done from the time you left school until then and, has that in any way helped or hindered your writing career now? Kelly Rimmer: I’ve worked in all sorts of really interesting jobs, but most recently I’d been working in IT in software development. Sometimes when I’ve done writing workshops and I show people my process and how regimented it is and how much I plan before I write, and how much I rely on different software to bring it all together. I think that is probably all informed by that background, working with technology. And other than that, publishing and it are, polar ends of a spectrum in the sense of it is, so male dominated and it’s such a. It’s, quite a regimented professional industry. There’s a lot of handshaking and deep voices and, and publishing. I work mostly with women and there’s a lot of hugging, it can be a tough industry too, but it is much warmer in some ways. Writing WWII suspense from semi- rural Australian home I think I came in and had a bit of culture shock at first, but, but every experience as a writer, every experience you have in some way becomes gold for you to mine. It probably is all in there somewhere. Jenny Wheeler: And you are based in semi-rural New South Wales, Australia, and you are writing European historicals. Is that difficult sometimes? Do you have to do a lot of traveling to resource libraries, or how do you manage that gap? Kelly Rimmer: Well, I love traveling and then the pandemic happened and it made it so much more difficult to go and be in the places where I wanted to be as I was researching. But we do live in such a digital age, and for someone like me, I’m somewhat computer savvy and I found it quite easy to access what I needed to. For example, with The Warsaw Orphan, there was this one particular resource I needed to use, an archive of documents that had been stowed away under the Warsaw ghetto and then discovered again. There were resources there that would help me to paint an accurate picture of life in the ghetto. ‘Secret’ of Kelly Rimmer’s success And that was the first year of the pandemic. I had planned a trip, which I had postponed because I went on tour in the US. And then I came home and I was getting ready to go again, and then the, you know, ‘no travel’ for years. But I was able to access all of that, if not online, I could order what I needed online. So, I think if you’re digitally savvy, this is a really good time to be writing because it’s, it’s almost unlimited what you can access via contacts on the internet or resources on the internet. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. Look, there’s one, you know, nut nutshell question that I like to ask everybody, but if there was one thing that you said, As the secret of your success as an author in your creative career, what would it be? Kelly Rimmer: Yeah, sometimes I’ve had writers say to me, it all happened quite easy for you. Like the first publisher I submitted to took my book and published it, and then that publisher made that book a success and why did it happen so quickly? But there was 20 years of me practicing and I think, I really think as a writer you have to be willing to. Throw away words, and it sounds probably counterintuitive, but sometimes I’ve spoken to writers who say, I’ve finished my book and I’m going to find a publisher. Now, sometimes your first book is a practice book or your first few books are practice books and it, you’ve gotta be willing to let it go and sometimes, sometimes you’ve gotta just write things for yourself. Dreams realised with an Orange bookstore You know, and for me, even now, I, I tend to overwrite and I’ll have many more words than I need, and I have to be willing to let many, many words go before, you know, at that final stage. And I think understanding that the, even like in terms of the daydreaming, so I do so much daydreaming, you know, even when I’m walking my dogs or putting around the house, I’m in this story all the time. And you have to be able to accept that not everything you experience as you’re planning and daydreaming about the story will end up in the final version. Jenny Wheeler: I think that’s very wise advice. When you started out with writing, what was your main goal? And have you achieved it? Kelly Rimmer: I dreamed about getting published. That seemed like this unlikely, lofty goal. And then I thought, oh, if I could write full-time, that would be incredible. And then that happened. And as a kid, the, the ultimate, like the ridiculous high dream was that I would be a writer who owned a. Bookstore. Well now I own a bookstore and I write full-time. So really, it’s all kind of, I have been incredibly fortunate that it’s all kind of fallen into place just as I didn’t dare imagine that it would, but, you know, secretly hoped so, yeah. Commercial fiction a special love Jenny Wheeler: Well, that’s fascinating. What, where is your bookstore? Kelly Rimmer: So it’s about, it’s in a town called Orange, which is, near the biggest kind of city, the regional city near where I live. And it’s, so, it’s about 20 minutes away from where I live. And it’s, yeah, it’s we purchased it last year from, this amazing couple that had, established it and owned it for 25 years. Jenny Wheeler: And is it digital as well? I mean, can, can listeners find it? Kelly Rimmer: They can find us online. So this store is called Collins Booksellers Orange. And so we’re on all the usual platforms, you know, all of their social medias on the web. Yeah, and it, it is primarily a print, kind of face-to-face book store, but we do have online things as well. Jenny Wheeler: And what do the people in Orange want to read? Have you influenced the stock control A any since you’ve taken over? Kelly Rimmer: I love commercial fiction, so I love, I love accessible stories that people, to lose themselves in. So we have, we have a really wide range of, of books, but real, I, I don’t know that I’ve influenced it, but, but I think. Sometimes book sellers, not, not, not the ones that I bought the bookstore off, but there are other booksellers who sometimes really prioritize, you know, rabbit ears, quality literature and literary fiction. Don’t be embarrassed to ask for it But I think people, particularly young people, are reading a lot of. A lot, a lot of commercial fiction. We have so many young people who come in to the store and they’ll say things, they’ll be a little bit embarrassed, like, oh, I heard about this book on Booktalk. Or, oh, my friend was reading this book, but it’s only, you know, it’s only this romance or it’s only this fantasy. And I, I think that every book that anyone picks up generally has something to teach them, and there’s no shame in reading any kind of literature. So we’re trying to stock a nice wide range of books that people just love to read. That’s really, at the end of the day, what we’re aiming to do. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that sounds wonderful because one of my favorite little things really is that quite often I think with literary fiction, people get guilted into reading some of those books. Kelly Rimmer: Yes. I mean, I’m not, I love, there’s like some of my, actually two of my favorite books are literary fiction books. I love it too, but I think that the more that we try and force people into literature, that’s a little harder to lose yourself in sometimes. You know, you have to focus just that little bit more and it makes it, it puts a barrier there between the reader and reading as a hobby. And so whatever the entry point is, I don’t care if you’re reading children’s books and you’re 30, that’s completely fine. If you’re reading, it’s good. What Kelly Rimmer is reading now Jenny Wheeler: Absolutely. And it’s a sad thing if any book that’s that’s good enough that people go into a bookstore and ask for, it deserves to be published. Kelly Rimmer: A hundred percent. Yep, exactly. Jenny Wheeler: Look, it’s good that you’ve mentioned about your reading taste, because that’s the next thing I’d like to ask you about. We always do like to ask our authors about the things they’re reading at the moment. Tell us what, what your passions are at the moment. Kelly Rimmer: I, I read just about everything except horror and crime. I’m a real, I’m a real fra cat. I have such a vivid imagination. I can’t read crime and I can’t read horror, but I’ll read. Pretty much anything else? I love to listen to memoirs on audio, and I, at the moment I’ve got, I think I’ve got, oh goodness, I think I’ve got four books on the bow. I’ve got a galley that I’m reading, like an advanced copy, and I’ve got, I’m reading Dear Mrs. Bird, by A. J. Pearce,, which I think everybody in the world read a few years ago, and I somehow missed, and I’m reading All Adults Here by Emma Straub, which is fantastic. What is the other one? I’ve I’ve got like my computer bag book, and then I’ve got my laptop my handbag book. One thing she’d change about her career? And then I’ve got my Beside the bed book. And then I’ve got a Kindle and then I have my audio books on my phone. So there’s always, it’s a bit ridiculous, but I always have lots on the go. Jenny Wheeler: That’s gorgeous. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your creative career you’d change, what would it be? Kelly Rimmer: I think I’ve been so fortunate. I can’t complain about much of anything really. In some ways I wish I’d been a little braver to try and be published earlier. Sometimes people say to me at events, oh, I wanna be a writer, but it’s too late because I’m X years old. And I always say, this is not ballet. It is never too late. And in fact, sometimes, a few more years give you wisdom to write in a way that, , if you can’t get published at. 20, you might be able to get published at 30. Because seasons change and the book that you’re writing might be something publishers want. But, for me, I think I was a coward for such a long time. It was so precious to me that I didn’t think I’d handle criticism well. And then it turned out that I handle criticism just fine. Once the book is out there, people can love it and people can hate it. What’s next for Kelly Rimmer? It’s not my business anymore, but for so many years, that really held me back and that’s probably, if I had a time machine, I probably would go back and shake myself a little earlier and say, come on, you love this so much. Just try. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Yeah. What’s next for Kelly, the author in terms of what have you got on your desk for the next 12 months, or even in terms of, publicity tours? What have you got on? Kelly Rimmer: I’m writing, I’m about to start a new book. I’m still working on the premise, so I can’t say too much about it, but I will be writing. I’ve got a little bit of, Australian touring in the next couple of weeks, but not too much. And for the most part, I’ll just be writing, I think. And I think this year I’ve got this, side fun project, which is a speculative fiction project that I’ll probably work on a little bit this year too, although I don’t know if I’ll ever publish it. That one is just my fun, you know, personal, fun side thing. Jenny Wheeler: Great. And do you enjoy interacting with readers and where can they find you online? Kelly Rimmer: Oh yes, I am. My website is kellyrimmer.com and all of my social links are there. I’m mostly on Instagram and Facebook, but I’ve got email and the other bits and pieces there too that readers can find. Jenny Wheeler: And that book that you’re working on, is it another European historical or something quite different? Kelly Rimmer: All I’ll say is it is another historical. Jenny Wheeler: Okay. Historical. That’s good. Kelly Rimmer: Yes. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. Kelly, look, thank you so much for your time. I think we have gone over our 30 minutes, but it’s been a delight to talk Kelly Rimmer: Oh, it’s so nice to meet you, Jenny, and thanks for having me. If you enjoyed Kelly you might also enjoy… World War II Women Spies with Christine Wells,, Christine Wells’ World War II historical fiction celebrates strong, courageous women with story lines that faithfully reflect the true lives of real spies and resistance workers.  HEAR CHRISTINE WELLS Next week on Binge Reading Jenny Wheeler: Next week on Binge Reading award-winning Australian author, Mark Brandi with his latest poignant, small town mystery, a coming of age story called Southern Aurora. Jimmy as a kid growing up fast on the poorest street in town. He tries to do everything right. And look out for his mum and his younger brother. But small town life is unforgiving. If you’re from the other side of the tracks. Remember, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review. So others will find us too and find great books that I want to read. That’s it for today. See you next week and happy reading.

A small town scammed by one of their own in a Ponzi scheme. That’s the scenario for bestselling author Fiona Lowe’s, latest contemporary fiction, The Money Club.  Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and on Binge Reading today, Fiona unpicks the moral quagmire of those who trade on the bonds of their closest friendships and families for money. This week’s Giveaway In our Giveaway this week, Mystery Thriller and Suspense Freebies for a limited time. Once again, we’re giving you a library of choice, including my Hawaiian Christmas novella Captive Heart. It’s a mixture of romance and history, #8 in the Of Gold & Blood mystery series. FREE MYSTERY & SUSPENSE ​https://books.bookfunnel.com/mtsnewsleter_endsjul15th/ze5yu8o9ad And remember if you enjoy the show, leave us a comment so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best form of recommendation. Links to things mentioned in the show Ponzi Scheme:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ponzi_scheme# ABC  (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) https://www.abc.net.au/ Grey (Gray) Nomads https://www.thegreynomads.com.au/ Fiona Lowe Books: A Home Like Ours (Women’s fiction on the theme homelessness among older women) https://www.amazon.com/A-Home-Like-Ours/dp/B08SR7PSPV/ Family Of Strangers; https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/89575506 The books Fiona is reading now American Dirt by Jeanine Cummins. https://www.amazon.com/American-Dirt-Novel-Jeanine-Cummins/dp/1250209765 And the controversy over American Dirt https://www.vulture.com/article/american-dirt-book-controversy-explained.html The Running Club by Ali Lowe: https://www.hachette.com.au/ali-lowe/the-running-club-the-gripping-new-novel-full-of-twists-scandals-and-secrets One Of Those Mothers: Megan Nicol Reed. https://www.amazon.com/Those-Mothers-Megan-Nicol-Reed-ebook/dp/B0BNGZ2BHJ/ Where to find Fiona Online Fionalowe.com Introducing author Fiona Lowe Fiona Lowe Contemporary women’s fiction author Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Fiona. Hello there, Fiona, and welcome to the show. It’s so good to have you with us. Fiona Lowe: Oh, thank you so much for having me. It’s great to be here. Jenny Wheeler: Fiona, you’ve got a very impressive back list in the romance area where you started writing You’ve got prize winning books that have won RITAs. That’s the US romance prize and the RUBY, the Australian prize. But you’ve turned in more recent years to women’s fiction and this one that we’re going to be talking about today, The Money Club is actually about the sixth one of these women’s fiction ones, if I counted correctly. Why did you make that change from more straight romance to very much women’s fiction? Fiona Lowe: Oh, I was published with Penguin Random House in America around about the time that they merged. And I had a series, and the first book had done well. The second book release coincided with the merger and it was absolute chaos. They sacked my editor and they didn’t get the books out of the warehouse. And then they said, ‘oh, we’re not publishing those types of books anymore.’ I had lived in the States and I was writing books set in America, but when that all happened, I had an absolute hankering to write a book set in my own back garden in Australia. A forced change of direction that worked out well I wanted to move beyond looking at one couple and one relationship, and I wanted to roam over all sorts of things and write books about family and communities. I changed direction, but that said, the emotion that I write into my books now, I probably couldn’t have done without all those years of having written the romance fiction up until that point. Jenny Wheeler: And are you still with the same publisher, just doing different types of books? Fiona Lowe: No. I’m with Harper Collins, Australia now, have been for the last seven books. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, fantastic. So it was a complete change and, but you were living in Australia at that time? Fiona Lowe: I was, but we had been living in the United States, which was why I was setting books over there. But yes, I’ve basically reinvented myself three times within my writing career, since I started. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, amazing. We might get to talk about the third time a little bit later on but also it might have had an advantage, because you’re a truly international author now, aren’t you? You have quite a reach beyond the Australian market. Fiona Lowe: Yes, I’m published overseas as well as in Australia and New Zealand. What would you do if you lost all your savings? Jenny Wheeler: The Money Club introduces us to a group of middle class friends in a small town that are drawn into investing in a financial deal that one of them is running. This thing called the Elite Club, and it’s not giving any spoiler away to let people know that early on in the process, this turns out to be a con, because it’s already in the publisher’s blurb for the book. The story deals with the fallout from that. It seems to me that there’s two ways that people have to deal with this kind of disaster in their lives. They can try and pick themselves up and say, ‘oh, that’s happened and we’ve got to regroup.’ Or they can spend a lot of energy on trying to exact revenge and justice and almost being in denial that they’ve lost their money, trying to get their money back. And your people do have those two slightly divergent sorts of responses, don’t they? Fiona Lowe: When you lose all your money, your first absolute reaction is that you want to get it back. And as human nature is, we want to blame someone. We want someone else to take responsibility for what happened. That is a normal response, no matter whether you lose all your money, or whether you’ve gone through a natural disaster. In the early days in the book, everyone is just trying to keep their head above water. You go into shock when something like that happens because it’s the last thing you expect when you’ve invested and you’ve been making money. Especially when you’ve invested with someone that you trust. because Ponzi schemes are inherently based around trust and connection. They trusted Brad with their money. It was a slow realization that everything isn’t as good as what they thought it was. That leaves you absolutely floundering, when you realize suddenly life – what you thought had – has done a complete 180. The characters all have a journey. And they deal with their loss of income in very different ways. The town where lightening struck twice Jenny Wheeler: The story is based in a rural town outside of Melbourne, but it could happen anywhere. We only need to look overseas to Bernie Madoff and the billions that he stole to see that. But this one has got an aspect of being based on true events as well, hasn’t it? Tell us a little bit about the particular case that you were drawn into. Fiona Lowe: There’s a couple of things. My claim to fame, I’m not sure it’s a great one, is that I live in a regional city that has been subject to two of Australia’s worst Ponzi schemes. In fact, we actually had, at one point, standing in our kitchen drinking our wine… We had one of the perpetrators of one of these schemes We did not invest, but the fact that he was standing in our kitchen came about because of small towns, and the networks. You are never too many handshakes away from anybody. When this scheme went down and $89 million dollars went missing, a lot of people in my town were affected and I observed the fallout from that. I hadn’t actually intended to write a book about it. It was just like, isn’t this awful? It was just sitting there in the back burner. And then another decade went by and the town got hit by another Ponzi scheme. Are they ‘gullible’ or ‘greedy?’ You decide And remember listening to an ABC podcast about a couple of blokes down in East Gippsland who had invested and lost money and they were trying to get their money back. They believed that there was a middle man involved and they were trying to sort that out. I remembered these families and these workplaces because Ponzi schemes and networks – entire extended families go down. Entire sporting communities, sections of a factory. They all invest because they all trust each other. And I started to think if you lose everything, normally you can turn to someone in the family and they can help you out. But if your entire extended family has lost everything, where does that leave you? And I thought, I need to write a book about this. Jenny Wheeler: Early on there is the question raised of ‘were they gullible or were they greedy?’ And I guess sometimes this might surface in the press as well with the comment t’hey shouldn’t have been so gullible.’ How did you tackle that aspect of it? Fiona Lowe: That was the big theme of the book, what is need and what is greed? And that was my constant question that I was asking as I was writing the book. Is it greedy to want to own your own home? Is it greedy to want to educate your children? Is it greedy to want to own a Lamborghini and for other cars? And who makes a decision about what is need and what is greed and where’s the line drawn? So that’s constantly being tossed around. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Facing homelessness at 55 Jenny Wheeler: I must admit that when you read of these stories, sometimes you do think to yourself how terrible it would be. I’d hate it at this stage of my life now if my relatively modest savings were somehow just all swallowed up Fiona Lowe: It would be terrifying. Absolutely terrifying. I’ve written another novel A Home Like Ours that I focused on homelessness. Women over the age of 55 in Australia are the fastest rising group of homeless in the country. because they’ve often come out of divorce or they’ve been a carer or they’ve been raising children and they just don’t have that same income. And it’s awful to be constantly worried about, can you afford this? And are you a going to be able to hold onto your home? That’s one of the issues that plays out in The Money Club. We were talking about being gullible before. The way a Ponzi scheme is structured, we are dealing with narcissists, so when we are dealing with someone like that, we can’t apply our own moral code to these people because their moral code is so far deviated from ours that it’s unrecognizable and they’re very clever. I’d better explain what a Ponzi scheme is to your listeners in case they don’t know. A Ponzi scheme is a sham investment. No money is ever generated. How it works is they use the latter investors’ money to pay dividends to the early investors’ money. Ponzi schemes… ‘Always a red flag…’ Initially people are making some money and then they’ll say to their friends, look, this is really good investment and it’s paying and I’m getting dividends. Do you want to join?  But the later people who invest, they lose everything. And. Yes. The investment percentage payoff is normally higher than other investments. That’s always a red flag. But then again, there’s been other times where people have taken a risk and it’s completely paid off. With a Ponzi scheme the risk is actually muddied because of these early payments. They’re not a hundred percent gullible. They’re a hundred percent scammed, and I don’t know about you, but I get at least two scams a week on my phone at the moment. We are being hammered by scams. In fact, in my town this morning I woke up on the news to hear that there’s a current parking fee scam. People who got parking tickets on the weekend, it’s a hundred percent a scam Jenny Wheeler: I’m being hit with ones that tell me that they haven’t been able to deliver my parcel. I haven’t had any parcels ordered. And if I just give them my details, then they’ll be able to make sure it gets to me. Yeah. Fiona Lowe: That’s exactly right. We have to be constantly vigilant. The other thing about Ponzi schemes and with The Money Club is that this wasn’t a stranger that was suggesting that they invest. This was a friend, someone they trusted, a man whose father was a financial advisor. They came with gravitas. And trust is such a huge thing, if we trust people, we will take that step. The collapse of life dreams – and learning to handle it Jenny Wheeler: The characters in the book, the dreams that they have are the dreams we all have. There’s a young couple who want to own their own home. Now we have mentioned about this thing of home ownership. It might be a little bit more common in Australia and New Zealand that a lot of people assume that the sign of their success in life really is getting to own their own home. I know that in some areas, it’s not so much a goal in life, but this young couple, they’re gutted when they realize that the home that they have actually put money into is going to be taken away from them. And then the other older couples, they’re looking at the retirement plans, they’ve got dreams to drive around Australia, et cetera. It’s the collapse of all their dreams as well, isn’t it that’s involved? Fiona Lowe: Oh, that’s right. Exactly. And that’s where the anger and the fury and the revenge comes in because, they had plans and these have all been scuttled. You’ve got a young couple that wanted to pay off their house and have another child and change their life because Jack’s a ‘fly in, fly out’ engineer. They’re prepared to do the hard yards for four or five years. That means that Lucy, who’s a midwife, is a sole parent two weeks out of every four and Jack’s away from home. Stress of relationships is the seed of the story The ultimate plan was to pay off the house, and then he could take a lower paying job in the district and be a soccer dad, and their life could roll on. With the loss of their savings, they’re struggling. Then Jack’s parents, who’ve lost their superannuation, they’re also left struggling. On top of all this, you’ve also got fraught, intense family relationships. Birdie, who is Lucy’s mother-in-law, they had a difficult relationship before everything went pear-shaped. You can imagine the stress they’re under now that they’re under a great deal of financial stress. When I write my books, I’m always looking at interpersonal relationships, and when they exist and then you add on the extra stress. That’s where you get great seeds for story. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, and as we all know, I think, money is one of the biggest causes of relationship breakups as well, isn’t it? Fiona Lowe: Oh, absolutely. Even without having lost all your money, If people overextend themselves to take on a mortgage, then that is always a huge red flag. Jenny Wheeler: This thing about going away in a caravan when you retire. I think it’s something that’s big in Australia and I think maybe popular in the US as well, but there’s even a name for them in Australia. You call them the Gray Nomads. Talk a bit about that. I actually looked it up and see that there is a website called the Gray Nomads. Gray Nomads – a new 60s phenomenon Fiona Lowe: Oh, the Gray Nomads. I have to tell you, at this time of year Northern Australia is absolutely frantic with people over 60 traveling around in caravans and big four wheel drives. I was in Broome this time last year, and it was absolutely frantic. Birdie and Mike got married young and they’ve worked hard and all Birdie has been wanting to do for the last few years is take this trip. Mike promised her, hand on heart he would retire at 60 and then the contracts kept coming and he wants to fill the superannuation up as much as possible. But Birdie has raised the kids. She’s looked after her elderly mother. All she wants to do is take this big round Australia trip and when there’s an offer for them to invest in a lease, she is very promoting of that, because if this is going to bring Mike’s retirement forward two years. Then they can take off. That’s her entire focus, this traveling around Australia in a caravan. Jenny Wheeler: Practically speaking, did you settle on any ways where people can protect themselves against getting sucked into one of these schemes? Is there anything much you can really do? Fiona Lowe You can do your due diligence, but like I said before, because of how a Ponzi scheme is set up, it’s fake so you could do your due diligence and and still invest. It was quite interesting when I was researching. One of the Ponzi schemes, a financial advisor, his client had said to him, oh, look, I’m making money out of this. And he went, oh yeah. And he invested some money into it, and he was an early investor, so he was being paid dividends, but he could not work out how. the money was coming. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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He couldn’t work it out. And so, he never advised any of his clients to invest in it. He withdrew his money and he said to the man that had recommended it to him, I think you need to pull your money out because I cannot work out how this is working. And the other bloke didn’t. And a month and a half later it went pear shaped. And I suppose we were invited to be part of  one and we just looked at it and went, ‘those returns are too good to be true,’ and so we didn’t do it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s very sensible. Yes. It was tied around race horses as well, wasn’t it? Race betting. Fiona Lowe: Racing and the betting and that’s a part of the whole thing. The tagline of the book is “The Good Life Has Its Dark Side. When the book starts, after the prologue, you meet the characters and they are enjoying a very pleasant lifestyle. Things are looking good. And I think the thing about the Elite Club is it isn’t just a money-making venture. It had a huge social overlay. There were trips, there were dividend days, there were barbecues, there was a lot of socializing and enjoying the profits. Jealousy and cutting down the tall poppies And that becomes a way of life, and that was also another source of tension within the town, because you’ve got people watching, people making money, and then human beings are truly shocking. Of course when it all went pear shaped and they lost everything, there was a little bit of the tall poppy syndrome. People weren’t sympathetic to them because they’d felt that they’d risen above their station. It wasn’t just what was going on in amongst the characters, but also their relationship to the other people in the town. Jenny Wheeler: Now, because in a small town like that and with all those extra events going on, you’d get the feeling of being a bit left out as well. If you hadn’t joined, wouldn’t you? Fiona Lowe: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And you had to invest a certain amount of money to join. There’s a comment about a young man who said, “I was within $150 of being able to join.” And country towns, they’re fish bowls. and people don’t like to miss out. They see these people driving these new cars and they’re taking holidays and things that they haven’t had, and you are a bit jealous and you think why can’t I have a share of that? That’s normal human nature. Running away is never a real escape Jenny Wheeler: In the book before this one, which was called Family of Strangers, your characters in different ways are all running away from things. And I thought it was a wonderful irony that it was actually partly written anyway during Covid when no one could go anywhere at all. Fiona Lowe: When I was starting to think of the idea for this book, I wrote one word on my whiteboard, and that was escape. And the three female characters in this book are wanting to escape from their lives, in a variety of different ways. And basically the theme of the book is that’s actually it’s better to stay and deal than run. I always write about social issues of the day. In that book, I had a young couple who’d been on holidays in this tiny country town and they had such a wonderful holiday, which is what you should have, that they decided that they should relocate and live there, and then every day would be like this. And I’m fascinated by this approach. I’ve met numerous people who’ve decided to relocate after a good holiday, and I want to say to them, “But you take your real life with you.” It’s not going to be a holiday when you are living there. Of course, they get there and they’re trying to run a business and there’s no decent internet and there’s no childcare because you go from a big city to a tiny town, you don’t have the same resources. Absolutely. I looked at the mental load on women. Fiona Lowe – not a natural born writer How they’re having to juggle absolutely everything. We looked at that. And Abby was trying to escape – she had quite a bit of trauma in her life. I set it in a small rural town in Tasmania because I needed the isolation for the story to work. But I also loved that part of Tasmania, so that was good too. Jenny Wheeler: When you got started in writing fiction, was there some epiphany or eureka moment when you thought, I just have to write, or my life won’t mean anything to me? Fiona Lowe: No, I’m not very traditional that way. I didn’t grow up scribbling stories. I thought back, when I listened to other authors talk about how they always used to write stories and things. I definitely didn’t do that, but I used to have imaginary conversations in my head and I would always rewrite in my head the ending of a book that I didn’t like. And when you’re a teenager and you’re having those agonizing conversations with boys, that didn’t go well. I would re-script those in my head. I guess that sort of thing I had done, and I’d always written a travel diary, but I came from a medical background and it had never occurred to me to write a book. I’d had a lot of trouble having my first child and taking about seven years. A decade of perspiration before success When I was finally at home with the baby, I wasn’t really keen to be dashing straight back to work. And I heard an interview on the radio about writing romance fiction and I really loved the flying doctors and ER, and I knew the medical stuff surely. I have to say here, it’s very embarrassing, at that point in my life, as far as romances was concerned, I’d read Pride and Prejudice and one Mills and Boon. I knew absolutely nothing. I don’t know why I thought I could write a book, but I decided that I could. And so I gave it a go and it took me four complete manuscripts before I was published with Harlequin Mills and Boon for a medical romance, which are little 50,000 word books. I knew nothing. I didn’t have a clue. If I had read a lot more romances, my life probably would’ve been a lot easier, but I didn’t even understand the genre. I just decided that I was going to stay home and write books so that I could be at home with the baby. And from that decision to the first book hitting the shelf, took a decade. Strong foundation in commercial romance Jenny Wheeler: Yes. You’ve mentioned your medical background. You were trained as a midwife, you’ve worked as a sexual health counselor and a family support worker. So were all of those early romances focused in the medical area. Fiona Lowe: Yes, I wrote 23 medical romances. I had moved long out of hospitals. Prior to that, I’d worked in community health for years, but yes. I wrote the first one, and was very surprised when they expected me to write another one. I wrote a few more and something happened that I had never anticipated and that was that I developed some new writing muscles that I wanted to flex and I wanted to write something a little bit different. That’s when I started writing what they call single title romance. I didn’t have the medical bit. They were bigger books and involved more couples, and that’s when I wrote Boomerang Bride and the Wedding Fever series. And then I wrote these two bigger novels, they had medical themes to them, but they were also straight romances for Penguin Random House. And then when that all went pear-shaped, I started writing my general fiction novels that I’m writing and loving now. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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titles? Fiona Lowe: Correct. I did medical romances, then I wrote the single title, I did the Wedding Fever books and these other larger Montana books that had some medical in them and then now the general fiction. So yes, three times. Jenny Wheeler: I imagine that I know the word you’re going to give me for this next question, but if there’s one thing that you see as the secret of your success in your creative career, what would it be? Fiona Lowe: Persistence, Jenny Wheeler: I knew it was going to be that one! Fiona Lowe: Actually bloody minded, dogged bloody mindedness really. Because when I was getting close to being published, although there was 10 years elapsed, I’d changed countries and I’d had another child. I wasn’t writing for that whole 10 years. But it was probably two and a half years before I finally got published, and I knew I was getting close, but this was the hardest thing I’d ever done. I’d done post-graduate studies, I’d never failed at anything, and getting over the line to get a book published was seemingly almost impossible. I just became steely, determined that, I was going to win. What Fiona is reading right now Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. We’re starting to come to the end of our time together. We always like to ask our authors what they’re reading and if they’ve got recommendations for the listeners. Because we’re a popular fiction podcast, we tend to focus in the area of books that are both either entertaining or escapist or not too serious. Are you happy to talk about your reading? Fiona Lowe: Yes, certainly, although I tend to go blank. But the book that I have just finished reading yesterday is for my book group and that’s American Dirt by Jeanine-Cummins. I’ve just finished reading that. I am about to start The Running Club by Allie Lowe, also spelt the same way Lowe. And I’ve just finished a novel written by a New Zealand author Megan, someone Nichols. She’s a journalist and she has a column in the newspapers and it was a domestic noir and it’s a triple barrel surname. Megan Regan Nichols. I can’t remember the name of it book. It was quite a long title. But that was very good. It was set in I would imagine, it was set in a suburb of Auckland. Half of Fiona Lowe’s reading is audio Jenny Wheeler: Oh, I’ll have to look it up. Fiona Lowe: That’s what I’ve just finished reading and what I’m about to start. These days read about 50% of my yearly reading is on audiobook. Jenny Wheeler: And do you have a particular genre you like to focus on? Fiona Lowe: I like to read contemporary fiction. I don’t mind the occasional historical fiction. But I don’t read thrillers because they give me chest pain and agitation. And I’m not a big crime person, but I quite like the domestic noir if it’s not too stressy for me. I like character driven novels. I like to see how people, learn and change. Jenny Wheeler: That sounds great. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your creative career you’d change, what would it be? Fiona Lowe: Not having not having publishing houses go to the wall. As an author, you have very little control. You can only control the content of your novels. You have no control over anything else. And there’s always a certain element of luck involved. Luck and persistence in equal measure There are some fabulous books out there that are brilliantly written that have never really taken off, and there’s other books that may not be brilliantly written, but they have a great premise, or it’s an intersection of time. They just arrived at that right moment and they took off. But we have, as an author, have no control at all about that. All you can do is turn up every day and try and write your best work. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. And do you turn up every day? Fiona Lowe: Five and a half days a week. Yes. Jenny Wheeler: And how many hours would you put in when you’re writing at your desk? Fiona Lowe: All day. Jenny Wheeler: Oh gosh. Really? Yeah. You have to take breaks though? Fiona Lowe: Tuesday mornings I play tennis. But the thing is it’s not just writing. My career is today, where I’m chatting to you. This is work. The podcast work. There’s your creative aspect of work and there is the marketing. And then there’s just the sheer administration, as well. All of it, some days you’ll be writing, but what I do find is that you ‘re better to get up first thing in the morning, not talk to anyone and get your words down. And then you can deal with all the admin and other stuff later in the day. Dedication to sitting down and ‘just doing it’ I play tennis on Tuesdays because I work from home and that’s my water cooler and I see people, but I don’t tend to go to Pilates or do this or do that and then come home and write. I can’t because I’m distracted. It really interferes with the way my brain works. So creatively, it’s better just to get up and do the work and then turn on the email. Jenny Wheeler: Do you have a word count for each day? Fiona Lowe: Not really. Ideally, I’d like to write 1500 words, but I never achieve that when I’m first starting a book. Probably round about 1200 some days, I have days of 800 because it depends on if you’re stuck. It depends if you know what you’re doing or whether you are trying to find your way. And then, as you get to know your characters and you get further into the book, then I can write more words in a day. I have a template in my head and basically, I need about 1200. I’d like to like lot more, but I’m also very anti, “I wrote this many words today” because it doesn’t matter how many words you wrote, it’s the quality of the words that you wrote that counts. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Where to find Fiona Lowe online Jenny Wheeler: Yes, absolutely. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Do you do quite a bit of actual in-store stuff as well? Fiona Lowe: With the Money Club, I’ve just come off a big month of May book tour and that was fabulous. I did a lot of library talks and I love meeting my readers, but I’m very easy to find. I have a website, fionalowe.com. I’m on Facebook. I’m on Instagram, I’m on TikTok, and I have a newsletter that you can subscribe to, so I’m very easy to find which is good and bad. It’s wonderful when people write to you and tell you how amazing your book is, you don’t mind being found then. It’s not quite so much fun when you found, when people want to take you to task for things. Jenny Wheeler: Doing TikTok, I am impressed. Fiona Lowe: That’s a bit of fun. I got that started during lockdown. I’m not quite sure if I’ll continue it, but during lockdown it was a bit of fun and a bit of a distraction. Jenny Wheeler: Fiona, thanks so much talking. Thank you for your time. Fiona Lowe: Thank you very much for having me. Take care. Jenny Wheeler: Thank you. Bye. Fiona Lowe: Bye-bye. If you enjoyed Fiona you might also love Kristan Higgins in the “Queen of Love & Laughs with small town romances that bite deep. LISTEN TO KRISTAN HERE Next week on Binge Reading Kelly Rimmer and a World War Two story of love, spies and betrayal, based on true life. That’s what we’ve got for you next week on The Joys of Binge Reading. Kelly’s latest book, The Paris Agent, delves into the dangerous world of the agents who parachuted into France to support the Resistance fighters and met with heartless betrayal. Kelly’s previous international bestsellers include The Warsaw Orphan and The Things We Cannot Say. And this one, like them, is a real humdinger of a story. That’s it for today. Until next week. see you next time and Happy Reading!

This week on Binge Reading, delightfully fresh and funny romcom from Amy Poeppel. Her latest romp, The Sweet Spot is a tale of spurned love, revenge, and the healing power of friendship. Hi there. I’m your host Jenny Wheeler, and today Amy talks about her fourth laugh out loud escapade. The Washington Post said of The Sweet Spot; “She puts more planes in the air than an ambitious air traffic controller, and gracefully lands each one.” Marathon Mystery Giveaway In our giveaway this week, a Marathon Mystery Giveaway. Fifty books from popular fiction authors, including one from my own in the Gold & Blood mystery Series, an old California series. Book#1, Poisoned Legacy, a full length mystery, and Book #4, a New York Christmas novella, a romance with a mystery element and a prequel to the series. Take your pick, just go to the link for free downloadable books. There’s forty-nine others as well as my own, so you’ve got plenty of choice. FREE MARATHON MYSTERIES https://books.bookfunnel.com/mysterymarathon/pvjp91o04m You’ll find the link in the show notes for this episode on the website, www.the joysofbingereading.com. And remember, if you enjoy the show, do leave us a review somewhere so others will discover us and great books they love to read. Links in the show Links to things mentioned in the episode: Amy’s Funny book promo videos: The Sweet Spot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrCKEkNcXtE Musical Chairs; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IffxAo-QMh4 Books Amy loves or is reading right now: Kaye Gibbons: https://www.simonandschuster.com/authors/Kaye-Gibbons/1240808 https://www.simonandschuster.com/books/Ellen-Foster/Kaye-Gibbons/9781442343290 Steven McCauley: https://stephenmccauley.com/ https://stephenmccauley.com/ Elinor Lipman: https://elinorlipman.com/ Steven Rowley: https://www.stevenrowley.com/the-celebrants The Celebrants:  https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62049729 The Guncle:  https://www.stevenrowley.com/the-guncle Barbara Kingsolver: Demon Copperhead (A Pulitzer Prize winner) https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/60194162-demon-copperhead Curtis Sittenfeld: Romantic Comedy, https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62628727 Where to Find Amy Poeppel online Amypoeppel.com Facebook and Instagram: @amypoeppel Goodreads https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/15061378.Amy_Poeppel Please Note: this is a “near as” transcript, not a word for word rendering, but an account which intended to convey accurate meaning and intent – as the spoken and written words differ. Introducing Romcom author Amy Poeppel But now here’s Amy. Hello there, Amy, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Amy Poeppel: Well, thank you so much for having me. I’m excited to talk. Amy Poeppel – fresh and funny romcoms Jenny Wheeler: You’re an established romcom author. And this is the fourth book that you’ve written. They’ve all done very well. This one has got a lovely premise. Three women, Lauren, Olivia, and Melinda, all with totally different motives and not necessarily at the beginning, good motives, get involved in either caring for or at least investing time in the welfare of a little baby who happens to be without his parents because of difficult circumstances. That’s part of the setup of the story. You describe it as “a love letter to family friendships and Greenwich Village.” Tell us something about this fourth novel. Amy Poeppel: I wanted to write a book that took place in Greenwich Village because that’s where I live. That is my neighborhood. It’s beautiful. I happen to live in faculty housing at one of the biggest universities here, which is N Y U. I live in this large, very strange faculty dorm almost, which is I think a novel in and of itself at some point. I think that should be the next novel that I write. But I walk around this neighborhood all the time and you see faces over and over again, even though this is a big city, but Greenwich Village feels like a village.  We have these beautiful brownstones. I’m always walking around Washington Square Park and looking up at these beautiful, iconic brownstones, and I just wondered “what goes on in there?” I got this idea that I wanted there to be three women all in the area, who don’t know each other, but at the start of the book, have pretty quickly every reason to hate each other. They end up overcoming that and not only becoming friends, but they bond over this little baby that really has nothing to do with any of them, but he becomes their problem. A ‘love letter to Greenwich Village’ Jenny Wheeler: It’s funny that you use that phrase “a love letter to Greenwich Village,” because you’ve got a couple of very funny tongue and cheek short clips about the book on your website and I think on YouTube as well, which play on that thing of how unfriendly people are in New York. Amy Poeppel: Yes it’s something I was trying to get across in this book, which is that Greenwich Village, for example. Very charming, very beautiful. But it’s also gritty. It’s gross sometimes. The day after Halloween when all the students have gone out partying, it is. You have to watch where you step. It’s disgusting. And New York is that way. It’s both wonderful and it has this kind of terrible, smelly, gross side to it. And with Lauren, my character Lauren, she makes pottery and I wanted her to make beautiful things, but I wanted them to reflect that same combination of two things at the same time. So when I had her making this beautiful pottery, I decided, let’s have her signature thing be that she paints cockroaches on them or slugs on them, or dead animals or something, because I just wanted to reflect that same idea that things can be beautiful and lovely when you look at them in a certain light. And then on a different day, in a different mood, in a different situation, you see it quite differently and maybe they don’t look quite not quite as rosy. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I must admit – Lauren’s pottery. I did think that it was a pretty brilliant idea. Probably somebody has already done it, but I can’t imagine that being a very high selling item in one of those design stores. Amy Poeppel: Prefers ‘COM-edy’ to ROM-ance Amy Poeppel: Yes. Something with an edge. I and that to me is very much what New York is all about. Things tend to happen. They’re not too pretty, they’re not too cute. There’s always a bit of an edge to it and what you referenced before. Yes, if your listeners go to YouTube and put in my name and the book title, either the Sweet Spot or Musical Chairs, you can see these book trailers. I like to communicate something about the book without it being something in the book, if that makes sense. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. The Sweet Spot has had a lot of great reviews and it’s  generally agreed; it’s fresh, funny, slapstick. A comedy of errors, and it’s obvious that you have found your “Sweet spot” with romcoms. Did you start right from the beginning writing in this genre? And why do you enjoy it so much? Amy Poeppel: Well, I definitely lean more toward the “com” than the “Rom,” Most of my books do have some sort of a little romantic element in there somewhere. But straight up pure romance readers might be disappointed simply because the love aspect of the book often comes about in another way. It might be the love of found family or the love of friends or something like that. I do like to work a little romance into the book, so I think romcom is a perfectly suitable genre. I think that’s probably the one I’m writing in. I would say that I always wanted to write comedy. I always wanted to make people laugh. I don’t shy away from having difficult situations in my book and heartfelt situations because families are full of difficult and heartfelt situations. But I never want to lose sight of the fact that what I love to do is see the bright side, see the funny side, see the something humorous in whatever bad situation we come across. Laughter is the best medicine. It’s true! And I try to do that personally in my own life. When I’m going through some sort of a hardship, if I can laugh, it’s medicine for me. It doesn’t fix it. It doesn’t fix everything. But in the moment, it can bring a lot of. joy and what might otherwise be a very difficult situation. So that’s definitely the “com” side is really important to me. I like in these times that are sometimes dark to give readers something to laugh about. Jenny Wheeler: There are a lot of very funny situations. One of those three main characters, Melinda, is set on wreaking vengeance on the other two, because she’s got a personal vendetta against them. And you think up the most creative ways for Melinda to take out her wrath. That had me smiling. I was thinking, oh, I would never have thought of doing something like that. That kind of feeling. Did you have fun making up those terrible things she did do them at times? Amy Poeppel: I have to be honest, I had a wonderful time making up some of the terrible things that Melinda did. I’m almost 60 years old myself, I’ve got a lot of female friends. We’ve all been through a lot. Melinda definitely goes through a lot in the course of this book, and she changes quite a bit and redeems herself. A generation feeling a whole lot of rage But I really wanted to capture what so many of my friends and I are feeling, which is just a lot of reason to feel rage. And rage is propulsive. Rage can be fun. It can yes, also be destructive, no question. And certainly in Melinda’s case, it goes too far and she knows when it goes too far. She knows she’s gone too far, but especially the early stunts that she pulls, I had so much fun doing that. I just thought to myself, Lauren has three young kids in school. This woman. has control over a lot of the things happening in that school. And I thought, wow, could she make this woman’s life miserable? So for any of your listeners who’ve had to do things like upload health forms for school, imagine if the school secretary-receptionist is the person who could make everything delete and you have to re-upload everything again. Or she ends up having Lauren go home with almost all of the school pets or, she just tries to just make her life a little difficult. And just also put Lauren on notice, Jenny Wheeler: You wrote a great description of what you wanted to achieve, and you’ve referred to it already in terms of “not just straight romance.” You say you like to write funny stories in which “interesting driven women figure out who they are and what they want, fix their mistakes and build a life on their own terms and even find love.” Now, that sounds like a lifelong project! Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Women: We’re marvellous at re-inventing themselves Amy Poeppel: I also, speaking of my wonderful women friends, my age, I’m just forever impressed at how well women manage the chapters of their lives. We go through so many different iterations of ourselves and we reinvent ourselves so beautifully, I think. So I really did want to pay tribute to that and those three women, the three main characters in the book. But Evelyn also, and she’s our sort of outsider, but slightly older character, not much older, but I wanted each of those women to find a way to reinvent themselves and come out in a better place than they started. And if not better, because it might not necessarily feel better at the outset, but I want them to come away with something interesting and having accomplished something that they didn’t necessarily ever see was going to be part of their life. So yes, that reinvention, especially women, is just fascinating to me because I think we’re incredible at it actually. Evelyn: The grandmother who won hearts Jenny Wheeler: Evelyn is actually lovely. She’s the grandmother that gets called in an emergency to help come and look after the children for what was going to be a few days at the beginning. She’s quite rigid and she’s got very definite ideas about how they should be living their lives and she doesn’t approve of their rather laissez faire attitudes. But she evolves in a really interesting way through the book and it was lovely to see an older woman make lots of changes as well. Amy Poeppel: Yes, and to really open up her heart a little bit and to see that there’s more to life out there than the small world in Boston that she was living in, and that there’s more than one way to live your life and to be considered a success or have happiness or any of that. But I did want her to be the very quick house guest to come in, see things from her perspective so we could see somebody else taking in this brownstone that they live in, but maybe not go home. Maybe be the house guest that tends to linger. So yes, I love that character. I’ll tell you a little – not a secret about the book, but an interesting fact, which is that the first draft that I wrote of this book, I wrote the entire book in first person from Evelyn’s perspective, all 400 pages. Evelyn coming into Greenwich Village, seeing the situation. The entire thing was first person. It ended up not working for a number of reasons, and I had to start all over again from a blank document. I kept a few elements of the story in there, but for the most part, I really did just have to start over again. When it comes to outlines: ‘Do as I say, not as I do’ But that experience, I don’t think that was a waste of time for me at all, because you always learn something when you’re writing. I got to know that character really well. It helped me understand her perspective. So, in the new version of the book, when I ended up with the one chapter that was Evelyn’s, it was so much fun to sit down and write that because I felt like I knew her as well as I know anyone else in my life, as well as I know my own sisters. I felt like I really had a grasp for who she is. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. I was going to ask you about your writing process and because one reviewer, did say that you landed more planes than a New York air traffic controller does with the plotting. And I thought maybe you had started as one of those people with a huge outline that you wrote to, but obviously not for this book anyway. Amy Poeppel: I’m a big believer in outlines and I would encourage anyone to try to write one if they can. I taught high school English for years and I always told my students, you’ve got to start with an outline. For me, for writing fiction, I find it very difficult. I have done it before and ended up throwing the entire outline away, I think because of the way I write. Everybody is different and there is no right and wrong way of doing any of this. But for me it’s all about getting to know the characters and the only way I can get to know the characters is to write. And then I get a quarter of the way in and I say, ‘oh no.’ That’s not what she would do. That’s not what she would say. Writing a lot of wrong words to find the right ones Because I get to know the person a little bit better, so I go back and correct as I move forward. And it’s hard for me to know where we’re going until I know who they are, because I don’t always know how they’re going to react to certain situations. I have to write a lot of the wrong words before I can get to the right ones. This book – I’m working on a new book right now – and I spent a lot more time thinking before I put pen to paper. I mean metaphorically because I strictly use a laptop. But I spent a lot of time walking and thinking and traveling for this book. I was on a book tour for this, for The Sweet Spot and instead of jumping in I was thinking. I was starting to get nervous because I was thinking, I’ve got to start, I’ve got to get some words on the page. When I finally did sit down to write, it came easily to me because spending that time thinking about the characters and what I thought their issues might be and where I might want to have them end up. I think that’s helped me this time working out a few things in my head. Jenny Wheeler: You bring in that idea of The Sweet Spot very nicely in the book, because there is a bar called The Sweet Spot, which has a fairly central part to play as well. And each one of the characters in a different way and in a different part of the book seems to recognize for themselves, oh, this is a sweet spot for me, or this is my sweet spot. It’s nicely threaded into the book. Making life uncomfortable in the enviable brownstone Amy Poeppel: Yes, and coming up with the idea for the bar was so much fun because I wanted this family to get to the privilege of living in this brownstone, but I didn’t want to make life too easy for them. So first I filled it with things that weren’t their own things that they were going to have to live with, and, set up a situation where they couldn’t just clear out the house. Then I thought, well, let’s also not have it be one of these. Absolutely beautifully renovated brownstones. Let’s give them an unrenovated brownstone with the big air conditioning units in the windows and really terrible appliances, and a kitchen that needs to be gutted and redone. And I thought, that’s good. They’re pretty uncomfortable now. And then I thought, what if I could make them a little bit more uncomfortable? I was walking around my neighborhood and I thought, ‘Let’s put a bar in the basement’ because that’s happens here all the time. You might have a dry cleaner in the basement or a bakery and I thought, no, let’s have a bar in the basement, because that would create a little extra mayhem. Also it would be a really nice place for happenstance. It would be a good meeting place where people could encounter each other. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Life imitated art in Musical Chairs And the scene where I have Melinda comes into the bar for the first time, she kind of ducks in, and happens to meet Philip. And then the bartender Dan, who ends up becoming important to her. That scene at the bar – that was just so much fun for me to bring those people together in that setting. and then I, of course, I thought the bar should be called the Sweet Spot because it’s just a great name for a bar Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, it is. Really nice. you mentioned your book Musical Chairs and I noticed online that you have a disclaimer on the website, which I’m sure is tongue and cheek, but it says “the book is definitely not autobiographical,: and I just wondered why you felt you wanted to pop that on there. Amy Poeppel: Yes. So again, if you look on YouTube and you put in my name Musical Chairs, you’ll see a very funny video that I made with my family on exactly this topic. I had written the book. And I decided to have musicians in the book. And I happened to have children who are not only musically inclined, but two of them were actually pursuing music professionally. So classical music is part of my life now. And then the book was already finished and Covid happened, and we all got locked down in this house that we have that’s absolutely falling apart in Connecticut. And all three of my adult children moved back home and one of the main driving forces of the book is that this woman comes to her Connecticut home, which is falling apart just like mine. Taylor Swift would be on The Sweet Spot playlist And her two adult children moved back home. But that was purely an accident and I just thought, this is crazy. I feel like I’m living the life of my main character now. A lot of it was wishful fulfillment fantasy for me because of course her daughter ends up meeting a guy who’s a fixer upper who can just fix anything. That’s literally, you want to know what like my fantasy life is? It’s a fixer upper, a guy who will come see that something’s broken in my house and just fix it. That’s, to me, that’s just the dream. That’s part of where that came from. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s funny. It’s a life imitating art, isn’t it? Amy Poeppel: Exactly. Yep. Exactly. Jenny Wheeler: For that book, you had a playlist, which you put up too, and I can understand because it is a musical book, but if you had a playlist for The Sweet Spot, what do you think it would be? Amy Poeppel: Oh, that’s such a fun question. I picture classic rock songs for everything that takes place in the bar. But I also like the idea of some sort of Frank Sinatra, New York themed songs. I would definitely have some of that in there too, some jazz because of The Sweet Spot, has jazz trios come. And then of course I would have to throw in a Taylor Swift song because I. have Melinda living right on Cornelia Street across the street from where Taylor Swift actually lived when she was in New York. I would have to throw in a little Taylor Swift also. Amy Poeppel: she loved books so thought she would be a librarian Jenny Wheeler: But I gather that actually in real life you don’t particularly like to write to a playlist? Amy Poeppel: I don’t really. Music featured very heavily in my book Musical Chairs, because the main characters they live and breathe classical ensemble music. That playlist was really fun for me to write because the pieces were all mentioned in the book someplace or other. But that was an exception for me. there’s definitely less music in my other three books. Jenny Wheeler: What got you started in writing at the beginning? Was there once some light bulb moment where you thought, oh, I must just write a book, or I’m not going to be realizing my future? Amy Poeppel: It’s funny because I’ve been a reader my whole life. And I thought as a very young girl that because I loved books, I should become a librarian. That was my goal for quite a long time. Then I studied English and ended up becoming an English teacher and that fit me pretty well because I really do love sharing with young people books that I think can just really change one’s entire viewpoint. So to get to do that with young students, not young. I taught 11th and 12th grade, but I just mean young minds, that was really great. The Texas “trainer book’ that’s stayed in a drawer And I also did a lot of theater right out of college. And I think that those things, my love of books, my love of theater, and my love of even teaching, the sense of an audience, none of that really came together for me. I didn’t publish my first book until I turned 50. I was doing all of these other things, raising my three boys. Teaching. I worked in admissions for a long time for a private school in New York City. And it wasn’t until I was in my late forties that I started dabbling in writing and I wrote this book about Texas, because I’m from Texas originally. And it was one of those amazing serendipitous things where I ran into a woman who knew that I had written this book, and I said, I don’t even know what to do with it now. I’ve written this book and it was really the book I wrote to learn how to write a book. So she, sent it to a friend of hers who was an a literary agent, and she said, there’s things I like about your voice, but I can’t sell that book. There’s just no way that I could sell that book. Is there anything else you’re thinking of working on? And at the time, I was working in this admissions department at a private school and I said I’d really love to write a book about admissions department, New York City families, the lengths that they’ll go to get their kids into just the right school. A new career at age 50 – terrifying and wonderful And she said, try to write that book and I’ll see what I can do. I was just about 50 by the time that book actually was finished and sold. This is a new career for me. This is really stretching me in ways that are sometimes terrifying, but good. I think it’s a good mental exercise to have, to learn a whole new career later in life. I think it’s all been very positive. I’m really glad I’ve taken this next step. It’s been great and I would just say to anyone out there listening, if you have a book in you, all you can do is sit down and write it. That’s the first thing is you can’t just sit and think and just have the idea. I just go ahead and sit down and write it and it may never see the light of day. My first certainly didn’t. But you never know. You never know in the first book, that might not quite work. Might help you write the next one. Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned your acting background, and I wondered if you were ever tempted. To record your own box because they are in audio. Amy Poeppel: They are. I’ve never really thought about doing it. Although I would absolutely entertain the idea because when I go out to do book events, I love to read. I always do something very short, because I think it’s hard to hold people’s attention for too long in that kind of a setting. But I love to read from my own books, so I would consider it, I would also consider, for example, my book in the drawer, the book that never got published. –  I would consider writing a screenplay for that. Topping up the creative juices Because there are things about that story that I think still worked, it just didn’t hold together as a work of fiction. But I would consider trying my hand at screenwriting. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s sounds fun. Turning away from the specific books to talk a little about your wider career. I see that you split your time between Germany and the US because of the demands of your husband’s career. Tell us a little about how that works and when you’re writing in a different place, does it feel like a different experience? Amy Poeppel: Yes, my husband works in New York City and he has a job in Frankfurt, at a neuroscience institute there. We go back and forth quite a lot. The downsides is I never know where my shoes are. I never know where anything is because we go back and forth so often. The upside is getting to travel. We live in Frankfurt and if anyone looks at a map, Frankfurt is smack in the center of Europe and it’s very easy to hop on a train and get almost anywhere in four hours. You can go pretty much anywhere you want. It’s been really an amazing thing. I can work anywhere. The main thing that I need for working is no interruptions. So as long as my husband’s at work and I’ve got the day to really focus, because my kids are ‘grown and flown.’ As long as I have the time and the quiet, I can work on a plane, I can work in Germany, I can work in New York. It doesn’t make a difference to me. What I do notice is that getting out and about is helpful. As much as I love to hunker over my laptop and really focus on the work, whenever I get stuck, wherever I am, I always find it helps to just get out and see a little bit of your neighborhood, see a little bit of the world around you. Maybe go to something, anything stimulating, go to a museum, go to a cafe and eavesdrop, almost anything like that can really just perk me back up if I’m feeling at all stuck. You never know what you’re going to overhear or who you’re going to see, like what kind of encounter you’re going to have. And for me, all of that stuff is interesting. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Splitting life between New York and Frankfurt Jenny Wheeler: And in Frankfurt. What’s your neighborhood like there? Amy Poeppel: Oh, it’s beautiful. It’s just lovely. it’s a very busy, lively neighborhood with lots of fun restaurants and bars and shops, and I can walk to everything. I almost never drive in Frankfurt. There’s just no reason to get into a car. Between the public transportation, the scooters, and walking, it’s a small city so I can get pretty much anywhere in the city. Within 20 to 30 minutes I can get pretty much anywhere. But it’s a lovely neighborhood. I’ll be going back there next month and I’m very excited because it’s summer and so all the restaurants will have their tables outside and it’s like Greenwich Village and that there are a lot of very beautiful tree lined streets. I love it there. Jenny Wheeler: And how’s your German? Amy Poeppel: My German is absolutely terrible. Terrible. I’ve been going to Germany for 30 years now. I lived in Berlin for a couple of years when my kids were small, and then my German got pretty good, I have to say. I was very much able to function, watch television. I got really good. Then I had a big break from going, and boy, when I tell you I lost it, I feel like I just lost it. When I go to Germany now, if I walk into a shop and speak German, they’re always very sweet and they answer me in English. And I’m like, I’m trying here. And so sometimes I’ll answer in German again and they’ll answer in English, and finally I just give up and say, ‘fine, your English is so much better than my German. Let’s just communicate that way.’  But my regret is that I now again, I have trouble reading in German and I have trouble watching TV. I feel I miss all the jokes. The ‘secret of success’ in publishing I have a little bit of a hard time keeping up, unless it’s a really good crime show or something where you know there’s a formula and you can figure it out. Jenny Wheeler: If there was one thing that you would see as quotes,” the secret of your success” in your writing career, what would it be? Amy Poeppel: Probably a lot of luck. A lot of luck. And then two things. One is just persistence. It’s really hard and you’ve just got to keep going. Even when you think you have nothing to say or you think you have to start your entire book over again or anything like that. So there’s persistence. And then really listen to people. Be willing to take criticism. Don’t be too precious about your words. If your editor says that this isn’t working, believe them, it’s not working. And be willing to get back and redo it. The only people I think who have a lot of trouble with that are people who don’t want the criticism. They think that what they’ve written is perfect. Nothing ever is, and they’re not willing to listen and erase a chapter and start over. A bucket list item – writing a screen play Jenny Wheeler: When you started out, what was your goal and have you reached it? Was it simply to write one book or did you want to see a TV series? Amy Poeppel: Oh, good question. I think on some level I’ve achieved it. On some level. Just getting a cover on my first book was pretty much all I ever dreamed of. Now that I’ve been doing this for a while, I do think that you push the goal line a little bit. I would love, for example, to write a screenplay or a stage play someday. That’s something that is on my bucket list of things I’d like to do. I’m currently under contract to write two books right now, so I’m working on the first of those two. I would really like these next two books to be books that I am as proud of as I am the first four. I want to keep that bar that I’ve set for myself where it is. That’s important to me. I don’t ever want to look at my books on a shelf and be like, ‘oh, but don’t read that one. It’s not very good.’ I want to feel that each of my books has its own strengths and shines in its own way. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s lovely. We always like to ask our authors, about their reading habits because this is The Joys of Binge Reading. When I started out it was the with thought of those ‘whale’ readers, as they call them, who go from book to book, and if they discover an author, read their back list. Mostly, we have multiple authors who already are published so our listeners can do that. I don’t know if you’ve ever been a binge reader yourself, but tell us a bit about the reading habits and just a couple of books that you’d recommend that are available right now. What Amy Poeppel is reading now Amy Poeppel: Absolutely. I’ve always been a reader and I always read. I’m not one of those people who, when I’m writing a book, I have to stop reading. In fact, I find that It’s one of those things that can be very stimulating, I think. I’ll read something and it’s so beautifully done and I’ll go, ‘Ooh, how did she do that? Or how did she make me feel that?’ I am always reading. I am also a binge reader and I really started out as a binge reader because I remember falling in love with an author named Kaye Gibbons and reading every single book she ever read. She wrote a lovely book called Ellen Foster. A tiny slim little book that I remember reading in an afternoon and then getting her entire back list. Steven McCauley is a Boston, Cambridge, Massachusetts author who I just love. As soon as I hear he’s got a new book out, immediately I go. I have to read it. Elinor Lipman is another one. My recent reads that I really enjoyed, I just finished reading Steven Rowley’s new book called The Celebrants. He wrote a wonderful book a couple of years ago called The Guncle that I just loved, absolutely laughed in. It’s wonderful. And his new book, the Celebrants, is a really cool idea about a group of friends and watching them go through life and meet during these incredibly important moments in their lives. I laughed a lot and really, and cried and really enjoyed it. Big name contrast in favorite authors I loved Barbara King Solver’s new book. Demon Copperhead. That was fascinating. Speaking of a great first person narrator she just did a beautiful job and I learned a lot about the opioid crisis in certain areas of the United States, and it’s a really well written book. And finally I’ll end with Curtis Sittenfeld’s Romantic Comedy. I really enjoyed that as well. Speaking of romcoms she has a character in there who’s a very famous musician. And when I wrote my book Limelight, I have the 18 year old version of that man in her book. I read Romantic Comedy and I thought, oh, I hope my musician, he was only 18. I hope he grows up to be a man, as wonderful as the man in her book, romantic comedy. I think that’s my fantasy is that my character Carter would grow up to be a man. As wonderful as that. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s gorgeous. That really is gorgeous. looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your writing career that you’d like to change, what would it be? Amy Poeppel: Start sooner. I wish I had started sooner, even if nothing had ever got published, even if it had all just been for me. I wish I had just written more. would sometimes get a little idea of something and I just didn’t follow through and I wish I had followed through more. Jenny Wheeler: It’s a day of Book Clubs and I think your books are the sort of books that book clubs love to be able to get together and chat over. Do you do book club, digital meetings? And if so, how can people get hold of you to arrange them? Book Club Zoom visits – we can thank Covid Amy Poeppel: I love doing book clubs. Covid has been so awful, but one of the really interesting things that came out of Covid is the idea that a book club of 12 people would invite you to join them. For me, that didn’t really happen until Covid. So I love to do that. And if you go to my website, which is just my name, amypoeppol.com you’ll find all the different ways to reach me. My email address is on there. But I really enjoy it. I think what a lot of book clubs like to do is they like to meet and discuss the book themselves and then have the author pop in after they’ve had a chance to discuss the book openly so they don’t hurt the author’s feelings, maybe, or just to get to share their own thoughts. I love to come to book clubs, so definitely listeners should reach out and let me know their schedules and I would be so happy to pop in. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful and it’s interesting that it was partly as a result of Covid that started happening. Amy Poeppel: Yes, because I’ve had people invite me and I go to in-person book clubs when I can, if it’s local and I can go somewhere. I love to, I just went to an event about 18 women or so in a church building in Bridgewater, Connecticut, and had the best time. They were the most engaged bunch of readers. They were just lovely and they had homemade brownies – so win. That was just fantastic. But it is nice that this idea that Zooming is so easy. I went to a book club about two weeks ago in California, but on Zoom, but they were all together in their living room and had a TV screen and she hooked her computer up to it so I could see all of them, which was really nice. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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And other sequels… And other times they’re just virtual book clubs where everybody’s in their own home. And that’s great too. I think it’s social. I think it’s fun to talk to people and I love to get readers thoughts on characters and the choices that they make. For me it’s a lot of fun. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, it is interesting. I saw a comment online that one reader had said they wished, there was a little bit more of Lauren in The Sweet Spot. People have these feelings of one character or another. They want to know more about them, don’t they? Amy Poeppel: Exactly. Yes. And that’s fun for me to think about. Or sometimes people will say, well, if there were a sequel, where are they now? Like, where are these characters now? And is the baby okay? And did they keep in touch? And I love to talk about that sort of thing because yes the baby’s okay and I think they all did keep in touch because I think they became very important to each other. But that’s the sort of conversation that I love to have and absolutely welcome. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s right. If you’re worrying about your Limelight character and what he’s like now in real life, they are very real to you, aren’t they? Amy Poeppel: Yes, exactly. Jenny Wheeler: We’ve partly covered it, but always our wrap up question is, do you like to interact with readers and where can they find you online? Just give us an idea of your social handles? Where to find Amy Poeppel online Amy Poeppel: Yes. You can always reach me, as I said, through my website, which is just amypoeppol.com. I’m on Instagram at @AmyPopol, so just my name, one word. I’m also on Twitter, although I have to say less so lately, I just opened my first, I. TikTok account. We’ll see how that goes. I, it may go nowhere. I feel like I’m about as extended as I can be on social media. But yes, you can always ask questions on Goodreads. Goodreads has a little question and answer things. Sometimes I’ve had readers reach me that way. And I have readers that are friends now, like readers who read my first book and they have followed me through all my books. There’s a woman who lives in Oregon. I’ve never met her. Her name is Donna. She was one of the first people who read my first book, Small Admissions, and now as soon as I get an advance copy of my book, I get in touch with her and say, ‘Donna, have you moved? Can I send you a copy?’ Because I feel like she’s been with me on this journey from the beginning. I couldn’t do this without readers. I think most authors will tell you, we’re so grateful to our readers. What would we do? We would be writing just only for ourselves, which is, valuable in its own way. But to share these stories with other people and to get to hear their thoughts on them is really what makes this profession so worth it. All the hard work, all the lonely days in front of your laptop, those are the things that make it worth it. I would encourage you to always, I love it when. somebody reaches out to me on Twitter or on Instagram and says, I just read your book and really liked it. I love it. What Amy Poeppel has got going in next 12 months Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. There’s always one that I do ask that I’ve just overlooked at the, but right at the end. Over the next 12 months, sitting at your laptop, you mentioned you’ve got two books that are due. Are they in a similar vein and are you carrying on in the way that you’ve been going? Tell us just a little about what your next 12 months looks like. Amy Poeppel: Absolutely. So this book, I’m about a third of the way through now. It’s very much a similar vein in that it’s families in turmoil. Finding the humor in the turmoil. I’m leaving New York City for this book, so this book is going to take place in Dallas, Texas, which is where I’m from, and in Berlin, Germany. Families from those two places, for reasons that you will eventually find out what they are going to swap homes, for what they think is going to be about a year. They have different goals, actually, at the outset, of how long they’re each leaving. Fleeing, I should say, fleeing home. Again, it’s a comedy, two families, the two women in the two families, their children, and how their children end up meeting. And it’s definitely a comedy. There will be a little bit of romance in it as my other books do, as for the book after that. I have no idea. The sky is the limit. Do you want to spend the next year with these people?  Even while I’m writing this book, I’m thinking about it.  I have an editor who I work with who said to me one time, who do you want to spend the next year and a half with, because that’s really what it feels like. These are the people that you surround yourself with for a year or so. And I remember when I started Musical Chairs, I remember she said to me, do you want to spend the next year with these people? And I thought about it for a little bit and I thought, ‘I do. I really do want to spend the next year and a half with them.’ That’s what it’s like. I’m already thinking what kinds of people, what world do I want to throw myself into, after the one that I’m writing now? Jenny Wheeler: Amy, that’s just a wonderful way to finish off. Thank you so much. You’ve been so generous with your time and with your information. Amy Poeppel: Thank you so much for having me, and I wish happy reading to all of your listeners. Jenny Wheeler: Thanks so much. If you enjoyed Amy’s romcoms you might also enjoy… Elissa Sussman Eissa Sussman’s hilarious break out rom com, Funny You Should Ask, is a witty romance built around the whole question and dynamic of celebrity journalism. Ten years ago, Chani interviewed Hollywood star Gabe. He was at that time the next James Bond, and the story she wrote about him then has haunted her career ever since.  LISTEN TO ELISSA Next week on Binge Reading Australian bestselling international author Fiona Lowe and her contemporary thriller, The Money Club. A small town, stung by a local buddies Ponzi scheme. It’s a gripping exploration of modern greed as Fiona unpicks the moral quagmire of those who trade on the bonds of their closest friendships and family for money. Next week on Binge Reading That’s it for today. Happy reading and see you next time.

Juliette Fay is the award-winning, best-selling author of tender novels that raise questions of loss, regret, second chances, and the influence families play in life-changing decisions. Hi, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and on Binge Reading today, Juliette talks about her latest novel, The Half Of It, described by the critics as “an immensely satisfying page turner, perfect for fans of Josie Silver and Jojo Moyes.” Helen and Cal enjoyed one perfect night, and then 40 years of buried hurt. They’ve got one chance to make it right. But can the past ever be fixed? Take A Break Free Book for the Beach Our Giveaway this week is Take A Break With A Free Book. Get ready for the beach – or the winter fire – with Book Bundle 2 in my Of Gold And Blood series, Poisoned Legacy and Tangled Destiny which is included in the offer. with 60+ other great mysteries and thrillers. That’s a full length mystery and a New York Christmas novella and prequel along with a library of selections. An excellent range of choice there, so it’s highly likely you’ll find something you love. TAKE A BREAK WITH A FREE BOOK https://books.bookfunnel.com/takeabreak/jtcmnk059p (FOR IF THE BUTTON DOESN’T WORK) And remember if you enjoyed the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still by far the best way for others to discover the show and great books they want to read. Links to things mentioned in the show Books Juliette is reading now: The Giver of Stars by JoJo Moyes. https://www.jojomoyes.com/books/the-giver-of-stars/ The Exiles by Christina Baker Klein: https://www.amazon.com/Exiles-Novel-Christina-Baker-Kline/dp/0062356348 Eleanor Oliphant Is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman  https://www.amazon.com/Eleanor-Oliphant-Completely-Fine-Novel/dp/0735220689 Romantic Comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld: https://www.amazon.com.au/Romantic-Comedy-Curtis-Sittenfeld/dp/0399590943 Where to find Juliette Online Website: Juliettefay.com Facebook @JulietteFayAuthor Twitter, @JulietteFay Instagram: juliette_fay Introducing author Juliette Fay Juliette Fay – tender and touching family stories But now here’s Juliette. Hello there, Juliette. And welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Juliette Fay: Oh, it’s wonderful to be here. Thank you so much for having me. Jenny Wheeler: We’re talking about your latest book The Half of It. It’s a perfectly executed second chance love story. And I wondered right at the beginning, how would you define it in terms of genre fiction? Is it a romance, is it a second coming of age story? How would you classify it? Juliette Fay: I would classify it as contemporary fiction. It’s not really a classical romance story in that there’s a lot more going on. It’s really about the entire life of the main character Helen Spencer, who’s 58 years old, and it’s about her relationships with her friends and her children. There is a romance at the center of it, or a potential romance. But I like that phrase, second coming of age. I think that she’s at a point in her life where she really needs to make a course correction and that’s the crux of it. Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting as the population in general is growing older, we probably have a little bit more time to regroup, and in fact, it becomes necessary if you’re going to just keep on living to have a chance to regroup, look back on your life, decide whether there are things you would’ve done differently. Take stock a little bit, isn’t there? Juliette Fay: Yes, absolutely. And one of the things that was so fascinating to me writing this story is that looking around there aren’t very many books with main characters in their fifties and sixties. It’s very few. I mean, you have to really dig. It seems that there’s books of characters in their seventies, eighties, and nineties, and then twenties, thirties and forties. I Feel like everybody is in their thirties in most of the books. But your fifties and sixties are such a fascinating time because as you say, you get a second chance to think things through. Maybe you’re retiring, maybe you have children, and they’ve gone off. I mean, it’s a real turning point. I think it’s such a fascinating life stage. I was fascinated to see that nobody’s picking up on that and so many readers are in their later stages in life. And we want to read about ourselves, really. The Half Of It – what does it mean? Jenny Wheeler: The title, The Half Of is an idiom. I know, from growing up with that phrase, its means something like oh, you don’t know the half of it, and it would seem an interesting title to choose for a book. The general meaning we interpret is it’s actually much worse than you know about, and I wondered why you chose that title and how it relates to the book. Juliette Fay: I would say that “the half of it “means you don’t know a lot of things. The “half of it” means it’s a much bigger story than you understand. Not necessarily bad, but there’s way more going on here than you know about, when somebody says you don’t know the half of it, there’s way more going on. And when Helen and Cal meet – should I maybe give a little quick intro about what the book is about? Helen Spencer is 58 years old and she has just come to the conclusion that her life has not turned out as planed. She can trace back to where things started going awry to a night that she spent in the woods with a boy that she loved, who loved her. They had this wondrous romantic night in the woods, and then the next day everything blew up and things have been going a little bit wrong ever since.  But she doesn’t want to delve into that. She just wants to keep putting one foot in front of the other. And she hasn’t seen Cal since high school. Then, one day they bump into each other, and Cal tracks her down and he wants to talk about what happened. And, the jacket copy says he doesn’t know the can of worms he’s about to open. A domino effect from one decision He doesn’t know “the half of it.” And what he doesn’t know about her, and she doesn’t know about him is what happened in the rest of their lives and how that one night affected them. Both the domino effect of this one decision and what happened the next day, and how that’s affected both of them. So they have a lot of catching up to do and they have a lot of working it out to do. I mean, there’s still a lot of hurt and anger from what happened. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, Helen is recently widowed, not so long ago, widowed, so that’s another part of her life that she’s taking stock of. Her marriage and how successful it really was, or satisfying emotionally, it really was for her. Do you think that women are inclined to make these reviews of their life a little bit later than men do? In the earlier years, they’re so consumed with serving other people’s needs. Husbands, children, just keeping things together. If they’re trying to work a job as well, and maybe they find it later in life that they start to look back and want to second guess themselves a little bit. Juliette Fay: That’s such an interesting point that you make, and I think you’re right about that. I’m, everybody’s different, but men seem to have that classic, midlife crisis at around 40 and, they buy the car or they, whatever, start fly fishing or something like that. Women maybe ‘take stock’ later than men? And I think that you’re right, that many women are so busy just trying to keep all the plates spinning in their lives and often in the lives of the people they care about maybe children, maybe a spouse, maybe family members, that they don’t really take that time until maybe later in life when hopefully things quiet down a little bit and they can have that chance to say is this really working out as planned? Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I did use that phrase ‘second coming of age’ because it seemed to me as I was reading the book, Helen is learning almost for the first time some of the things that are true about her and some of the things that she wants out of life that she hasn’t had already. That’s part of the journey the book takes, isn’t it? Juliette Fay: It is. It certainly is. I started writing this book in the middle of the pandemic. It was really inspired by that first summer whenever we were all in lockdown and in absence of social connection and going out and doing things. People seemed to be taking that pause in social interaction to take stock and review and ask themselves important questions. People of all ages were doing this. And I was fascinated by that. They were asking themselves questions like, is this the person I should be with? Or is this the job I really want? Or should I move closer to my family or should I move further away from my family? What is it that I want from life? And is this it? I’m gonna say to you that I am pretty happy in my life. I’ve been married for 32 years, and I love my husband and I love my kids, and I love my community, and I love my job. But what if you didn’t? What if you took that reflection and you said, oh, no, this is not where I thought I would be, or, this is not what I want. And Helen really hasn’t taken that look until now. And it’s tough for her because she has been serving others and she has a job she never really wanted. And she was in a marriage that was lukewarm. She had children early and they consume her, but they’re older now, and so they’re off on their own. And she realizes there were things that she didn’t get that she wanted. The mother – daughter bonds Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting her children, particularly the relationship with her daughter. It’s almost like the daughter now thinks that she’s got more rights than one might consider to tell her mother what to do and to run her life. So even in that respect, she hasn’t quite established her autonomy. Juliette Fay: That’s really true. So as an oldest daughter myself, and my oldest child is a daughter, we tend to be a little bossy. And one of the things that I really felt… so Helen’s daughter is Barb. And Barb is happy. Barb is doing work that she loves. She has a husband who is wonderful. She’s just adopted a little baby daughter. I mean, Barb’s life is going pretty great. And one of the things that Helen starts to pick up on is that her children realize that her life hasn’t gone that well and in different ways. They are all trying to avoid her fate. Juliette Fay: Barb is really the one she’s the closest to. She lives nearby, she takes care of the granddaughter. And Barb is the one who really is that bossy, oldest daughter who’s saying, mom, you need to change things. You need to be open to things and they really do have a funny. Almost backwards relationship. And yet, Helen is often saying to her daughter, I’m the mother, you’re not the mother, I’m the mother. But it’s a very loving relationship. Barb nudges her to be happier. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve got a piece online that you wrote for Psychology Today about writing your way to a happy brain. It was a lovely piece, but it indicates that you might have gone through a similar kind of revision of your life, but at an earlier age. Would you mind talking about that? It is online for everybody to see. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Writing your way to a ‘happy brain’ – Juliette Fay style Juliette Fay: Yes. Right. It’s no big secret. I had my fourth child and I had quit my job. I was working part-time, so I was home with the kids and I was actually quite unhappy. I love my children. I love being with them. But I really felt like I was not using my brain. I used to joke that I was a wiper of spills, a wiper of bottoms, a wiper of noses, like I was a professional wiper. And I felt very constrained by the fact that I didn’t have anything that was mine. And I tried a bunch of different things, like I knew and my husband knew that I was not happy and I needed to find something. And so I started writing and I describe it it’s a little bit like falling in love. Like I couldn’t wait to get back to my characters. I couldn’t wait. I was about 40. And it was, I would say, a little midlife crisis of, okay, this is great. I’m very grateful that I have all these little, crazy people running around and my wonderful husband, but it’s still not enough. I still need something else. And I was able to feed that need with writing. And it’s been a wonderful thing for the last, 20 years. Jenny Wheeler: I think you say that even if you didn’t get published, you’d still do it. Is that right? Juliette Fay: Yeah, I really, I, it’s just something I love to do. I can’t tell you how often people say to me, how do you have the discipline to sit in a room and write all day long? And my answer to that is, I don’t need discipline to write. It’s what I love to do. It’s like asking me how I have the discipline to eat a hot fudge sundae. Like I don’t need discipline, I enjoy it. I need discipline to go to the grocery store and, do the laundry. I don’t need discipline to write. That’s what I like. What was Juliette’s goal as an author? Jenny Wheeler: Tell me a little bit about your journey. When you started writing, what was your goal? Did you have a long-term goal, like getting published or at the beginning, were you just simply doing it almost as your personal therapy? Juliette Fay: I really, I had no idea about getting published, which is funny because I had always been a voracious reader. I have always been somebody who has stories running in my head. I make stories up in my head all the time, But it never occurred to me to really write any of them down. And so once I started doing that, and I wrote my first novel, and I only told a few people I just thought it was such a strange thing you go to a party, well, what are you up to these days? Well, I’m writing a novel. It just sounded so strange. I really didn’t tell anybody. I was very secretive about it. I did tell a couple of friends who read as I wrote, I would hand them chapters, and at the end they said they really urged me to try and get published. And so then I went on this journey of trying to figure out what is this publishing world? How does it work, how do I get in? And I have to say I feel that I was very lucky because there are many good books out there that didn’t see the light of day because the author didn’t have the luck of finding. It’s very hard to get an agent. It’s very hard to get, it’s a tough business and it continues to be a tough business even once you’re in it. So I do feel that I was very lucky to get published. Commitments to social justice Jenny Wheeler: One of the books romances, we won’t give anything away by going any further into it than that doesn’t go anywhere, because of the young man’s calling to the priesthood and he keeps this quiet for quite a while so that when he finally ‘fesses up that he’s not going to be going any further with this relationship because of this calling on his life, the young woman is slightly gobsmacked. I see in your biography, it was just an interesting little hint there that both you and your husband served in Jesuit volunteer programs and social justice initiatives. You both had quite strong commitments in that area. And I wondered if this was another little area of your life intersecting with your story. Juliette Fay: So you’re talking about my first book, Shelter Me and yes, absolutely. I worked in the Jesuit Volunteer Corps. I worked in a shelter in Seattle, Washington. My husband worked for legal services in Buffalo, New York, and we both knew many priests because of our work. And I was fascinated by their lives. And how they could be very kind loving people and yet they kept themselves closed off to any romantic relationship. It was something that it was interesting for me to explore. And, yes, absolutely, taking a little piece of my faith life. And putting it, and I think that’s what authors often do. We interject our books with little pieces of things that we are interested in that, that come from our own lives. None of my books are autobiographical in any way. But I sometimes say they’re autobiographical in a sense that. What the reader sees are the things that I’m interested in, not necessarily things that have happened to me, but themes and conundrums and conflicts and characters and settings that intrigue me. And so that’s the way in which you’re learning a little bit about me by reading my books. The ‘chickens come home to roost Jenny Wheeler: There’s quite a strong sense of morality in them too. And I wondered, generally genre fiction is considered to be for mainly entertainment purposes. Do you have any other thoughts but keeping your readers entertained as your writing? Juliette Fay: Sure. It’s interesting that you say that morality is big, I don’t know that I would say morality. I would say that my books definitely have a strong theme of giving and volunteerism and being a part of a community and being a generous person. And I think that all of my characters strive to be better than they are. And that is what I’m interested in. I’m interested in growth. In a character when I read and when I write, I wanna see how the character is gonna get out of this mess and be a better person, toward the end. but first and foremost, I do want it to be entertaining. I don’t want it to be some sort of morality play about how we should all be good. It really, I mean, there’s a lot of humor in my books. There’s a lot of crazy scenarios. I always say the three things I want a reader to do is laugh, cry, and lose sleep. Jenny Wheeler: Morality is probably the wrong word. Perhaps integrity is better. Juliette Fay: Integrity. That’s a good word. Yeah, Jenny Wheeler: Because some of the things that Cal does as young man lack integrity. Juliette Fay: That’s true. And he has to speak for that. Those chickens come home to roost and he has to face that even 40 years later. He wants to face it. And I think that’s part of the message of the book is if you have a mess to clean up, if you have an apology to make, if you have some, something to fix in your life. Now’s the time. You can do that until the day you die. You have that opportunity. Living life to the full – you don’t know how much time is left Jenny Wheeler: And I think one of the lovely things is as it develops, they do. make the most of the time that they have, they manage to do that by the end of the novel. They live wholeheartedly, don’t they? Juliette Fay: Yes, they do. They rekindle their friendship, which is really, as Helen says, the most important thing they ever were, they were friends in high school before that before that romantic night. And their friendship is really the most important thing. Jenny Wheeler: As we’ve mentioned you have a common theme of women finding agency in their lives and your, this is your seventh novel, but one of the earlier ones, the Tumbling Turner Sisters. Was a best seller described by a critic as a “funhouse take on Little Women.: And that sounded fascinating too. All of these sisters, tell us a bit about that book. It sounds like it was quite a breakthrough book for you. Juliette Fay: It really was such a change of pace for me because it was my first historical fiction. The Tumbling Turners Sisters is about a family in 1919, living in upstate New York. Their father is injured and can’t work anymore. They are facing eviction and their mother, who has always wanted to be on the stage, decides to turn them into a vaudeville act and they become tumblers. They’re pretty terrible at first. But as their agent, this wisecracking New York agent tells them, pretty girls in short skirts sell, so they go on the road, which is a very unusual thing for young women to do in 1919. Every week is a different venue, a different town. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} The Tumbling Turner Sisters – a breakthrough book They travel by train all over the country and it really is a very much an awakening for them. They come from this little small town in upstate New York and suddenly they’re crossing paths with other performers. Vaudeville, just in case people don’t know, was the nation’s main form of entertainment from the 1880s through the 1920s. Every small town had a vaudeville theater. And a troop would come into town and it would be a revue of seven to 15 unconnected acts. Jugglers singers, dancers, comedians, animal tricks, playing the spoons, weird stuff. One of the big hits was Regurgitators. They would swallow things and then bring them up. Oh, it’s just crazy stuff. It was so fun to research that book. But you know, as you point out, I am very interested in women’s agency and women learning to take the reins in their own lives, which is very much true in the half of it. Helen really does need to take the reins and make some changes. And I think that there’s so many ways in which women are often boxed in a little bit by their gender and by the expectations of who they’ll be and how they’ll be. And I like to read stories where women are empowered. So that’s often what I write. Jenny Wheeler: But you didn’t consciously model the Turner Sisters on Little Women? 20 years in human services influences Juliette’s work Juliette Fay: I didn’t, but one of the girls does read Little Women in the story and no, honestly, I had gotten halfway through the story and I said, oh, one of them is a big reader and what would she be reading? And I was looking at what kids were reading in 1919. And Little Women was one of them. I loved Little Women. I must have read that 15 times when I was a kid. And then I was like, wait a minute. Four sisters in, a difficult time? It’s funny how your brain will weave things together that you’re not looking for, and then suddenly you see the connection and it’s very exciting. Jenny Wheeler: Turning away from the specific books to your wider career do you think that your life and work experience before you started writing has influenced your work? Juliette Fay: Oh yes, absolutely. For 20 years I was in human services. I worked predominantly in child abuse prevention and parenting education and childcare and that, family services. I heard so many stories. You learn so much about people when you see them at their neediest. I don’t use those stories specifically because I don’t wanna take other people’s stories. But I feel like I’ve learned a lot about human nature and the human condition from that work for sure. And I continue, I volunteer at a shelter every week to this day because I really enjoy it. Jenny Wheeler: If there was one thing that you see as the quote secret of your success, and I guess people are always looking for this secret of success. In your creative career inside of publisher or outside of it, what would it be? The ‘secret of Juliette’s success’ Juliette Fay: That is such an interesting question. It depends on success at what? Success at publishing books. I mean, like I said, I think, I work really hard to provide a good product, but I’ve been lucky. I think that one of the things that I’m most grateful for is that I did start my career in publishing in my forties. And I just, like I had a big a pretty big life by that time. it wasn’t the only thing in my life. And so when I get a bad review or somebody would be difficult, I would think, Ugh, okay. I wouldn’t flip out. I see. I think a lot of writers, I mean, you’re, this is something you’ve created. This is art. This is something that comes from inside of you. And it’s very hard when somebody’s flippantly, disliking it or whatever. And nobody likes a bad review. But I see sometimes other writers, particularly younger writers, getting very upset sometimes about these things. And it’s you know what? There’s nothing you’re gonna do that. Everyone’s gonna it’s just something you learn as you get older. I think the ability to mostly keep an even keel about things has made it easier for me to stay in this job. And it means easier for me as a human, Jenny Wheeler: I notice also on your website that you’re very open to chatting with book clubs and all of your books have got book club questions that people can look into or dip into if they’re, if they want to. You are happy to set up talks with them, so I know most of those would be in the us, but just because we do have a slightly wider international audience, can you explain how that works and how people can contact you if they’re interested? Juliette Fay – available for Book Groups Juliette Fay: I have to tell you, I love talking to book groups. It’s really fun. It’s very casual. We just chat, whatever you wanna talk about, whatever comments you wanna make or questions you have. And it’s fun to be able to talk about the whole book. Like you and I cannot talk about the ending or spoilers or that kind of thing, but with a book club where everybody’s read the book, it’s really fun to talk about everything. So I do love doing that. And I have talked with book groups in other countries. Japan. I know I did, recently. So it’s all a matter of timing and making sure it’s, it’s the right time of day when everyone’s awake. You would just go onto my website, julietfay.com. There’s a contact there, you just email me julietfay.com and tell me when you’re thinking about having your meeting. And then I zoom, I would just Zoom with the group and sometimes the whole group is on Zoom or sometimes the group gets together at someone’s house and then I’m on Zoom and the, the rest of ’em are on the other side. Yes, very much happy to do that. With anyone, so I encourage that. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fabulous. But because this is The Joys of Binge Reading, we do like to ask you about your reading taste, and particularly whether you’ve ever been a binge reader as such. What are you reading now and what do you like to recommend to listeners? Juliette Fay: Absolutely. I am a big audio book listener. I’m an obsessive gardener and I love to listen to a book while I’m weeding or planting things or digging rocks outta my garden. Or driving, I do a lot of driving, so that’s another time when I really love to listen to books. It’s important to me that not only is the book good, but the narrator is good. And there’s some narrators that I love and I’ll listen to a book just because of the narrator. The books that I enjoy the most are probably historical fiction and women’s fiction, relationship fiction, family drama, that kind of thing. What Juliette is reading now Two of the best audiobooks for historical fiction that I’ve listened to recently with great narrators is The Giver of Stars by JoJo Moyes. I loved that, and The Exiles by Christina Baker Klein. I love quirky characters. In terms of contemporary fiction, I loved Eleanor Oliphant is completely fine that I loved. And most recently I just finished listening to Romantic Comedy by Curtis Sittenfeld It is a romance, but it’s deep. It really gets into how this woman looks at her life.  She’s in some ways a little bit like Helen. She’s a little repressed and – not repressed, but she doesn’t think that she’s going to find real love in her life, and it’s a very fun story. All of those I can recommend highly. Jenny Wheeler: Fabulous. The Curtis Sittenfeld one has attracted my attention. I haven’t had a chance to look at it yet, but I have read some of the earlier books and they were great too. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your creative career you’d changed, what would it be? Juliette Fay: Oh, that is so interesting. That’s a really interesting question. Oh, I would’ve been on Oprah or something, I guess, but I feel like, given that it’s a very tough industry, it’s very hard to get in. It’s very hard to stay in, I feel pretty lucky that I’ve been able to stay in for seven books. And I’m proud of the books that I’ve written. And I feel good about that. I don’t know, I guess I don’t really have any regrets about my career. Maybe I should come up with some just to be more interesting, but I guess I don’t. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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got the advantage there Juliette Fay: If I’d started any earlier, I don’t think that I would’ve been as good at it, honestly. I just feel like I had so much more life under my belt. In my twenties and thirties I was very busy with a career and children and all kinds of things, and I don’t regret starting earlier. I think that I was able to bank a bunch of interesting life experiences that helped me be a better writer in my forties. Jenny Wheeler: Looking forward to the next 12 months in your life as a writer, what have you got on your desk that you’re working on or that you’re thinking about? Juliette Fay: Well, I have another book that I finished and we’re seeing what editors are out there My editor retired, so I’m looking for a new editor. My agent is working on that. I have that historical fiction that I haven’t quite finished and I’m thinking I’m gonna go back to that. Honestly, I think I’m going take the summer off. I need to let the well fill up a little bit. So I’m going to just garden a lot and do some traveling and see my children and stuff like that. Fun stuff. Go to the beach and then see where we’re at, maybe in September. Jenny Wheeler: I’m interested in the garden because I’m a gardener. Tell me a little about your garden. What Zone are you in and what sort of garden do you have? Where to find Juliette Fay online Juliette Fay: I’m in Zone six and I do not have full sun in any place in my yard, so I do a lot of shade. I have probably 20 varieties of hostas. I’m a big astilbe fan. I love epimediums. There’s something I love about just getting dirty and being out there . Jenny Wheeler: I think that’s wonderful to be dedicated to a shade garden because they in some ways are harder, aren’t they? Juliette Fay: They are hard, they’re not as flashy but they can still be very beautiful. And for me it’s like a big art project. It’s like a big canvas and I get to paint it, however I want. So, I enjoy it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s gorgeous. You had mentioned about emailing through your website. Do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where is the best place for them to find you online? Juliette Fay: Oh, I do love it, I really do. It’s funny, many writers are introverts, they just like to be alone in a room with their imaginary friends, and I do love that, but I am a big extrovert, so I love communicating with people. I am on Facebook at JulietteFayAuthor, I’m a on Twitter, Juliette Fay. I’m on Instagram. I really enjoy posting pictures on Instagram so that, and people can always reach me by email and I do answer, it’s so funny. Every once in a while somebody will write to me and I write back and they say, I can’t believe you wrote me back. And I’m like, well, you took the time to write to me, so of course I’m gonna answer you. So yeah, I do like that. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. Juliet, look, thanks so much for your time. It’s been a delight to talk. Juliette Fay: Oh, I thank you so much. It’s been really fun. If you enjoyed Juliette- you might also enjoy Karen White – Hope in Darkness Karen White’s The Last Night in London, is a time slip story moving between the present day and wartime London. You set up a web of fascinating links between two women, one a fashion journalist in 1940s London, and the other a New York photojournalist in the present day. LISTEN TO KAREN Next week on Binge Reading Jenny Wheeler: Next week on Binge Reading, Amy Poeppels, and her fresh and funny fourth romcom, The Sweet Spot. Three woman, Lauren, Olivia and Melinda, all with totally different motives, and at the beginning, not necessarily good motives, are drawn into caring for baby Horatio. It’s described as a “love letter to family friendships and Greenwich village.” That’s next week on Binge Reading. Just before we go, remember, leave us a review if you enjoy the show, so others will find us too. That’s it for today. See you next time.

Monty Soutar is a respected New Zealand historian who took a big step and turned his life upside down to write a game changing novel. Kāwai For Such A Time As This, is the first instalment in what is to be a three book family saga, which went straight to the top of the bestseller lists in New Zealand and stayed there for 22 weeks. Hi there, I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And it’s quite likely no one else but Monty has the knowledge and understanding to undertake a book like it, in the tradition of Alex Haley’s Roots, introducing readers to pre-European Maori life in much the same way as Alex Haley’s tale of tracing his roots back to Africa captivated an international audience. Monty tells the fascinating tale of how he came to write it and explains how all of his life experience seemed to be leading up to this point. A perfect preparation for writing a trilogy, telling a story of nation building through the eyes of its original people. Our Giveaway for this week is Free Historical Fiction for June and Sadie’s Vow, my Book #1 in the Home At Last trilogy is included in a good range of other selections. GET YOUR FREE HISTORICAL FICTION BOOKS Https://books.bookfunnel.com/historicalfictionfreebiesjune2023/7xpm3hb0wa (FOR IF THE BUTTON DOESN’T WORK) And don’t forget if you enjoy the podcast, leave a review. So others will find us too, Links for Monty’s Episode: Alex Haley Roots: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roots:_The_Saga_of_an_American_Family NZ East Coast and Gisborne: https://www.newzealand.com/int/feature/auckland-to-wellington-east-coast-journey/ https://www.tairawhitigisborne.co.nz/ Whakatane: https://www.whakatane.com/ NZ Wars of 1860s: https://teara.govt.nz/en/new-zealand-wars# Ngati Porou:  https://ngatiporou.com/ Ngati Awa: https://ngatiawa.iwi.nz/ Monty Soutar Nga Tamatoa: The Price of Citizenship: C Company 28 , (Maori Battalion) 1939 – 45, in the Second World War https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/5509025 Monty Soutar: Whiti Whiti Whiti, Maori in the First World War: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/51092025-whitiki-whiti-whiti-e Captain James Cook: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Cook Chinua Achebe,  Things Fall Part:  https://www.amazon.com.au/Things-Fall-apart-Chinua-Achebe/dp/0385474547 Victoria Hislop, The Island: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/922991.The_Island The Red Tent, Anita Diamant:  https://www.amazon.com.au/Red-Tent-Novel-Tenth-anniversary/dp/0312427298 Hilary Mantel, Wolf Hall: https://www.amazon.com.au/Wolf-Hall-Hilary-Mantel/dp/0312429983 The Luminaries, Eleanor Catton:  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/17333230-the-luminaries Patricia Grace, Tu: https://www.penguin.co.nz/books/tu-9780143019206 Witi Ihimaera: https://www.penguin.co.nz/authors/witi-ihimaera Where to find Monty Online Facebook: @montysoutarauthor Booktopia: https://www.booktopia.com.au/kawai-monty-soutar/book/9781776890309.html Amazon.com.au: https://www.amazon.com.au/K%C4%81wai-Such-Time-As-This-ebook/dp/B0BPJNP3QC/ Introducing Kāwai author Monty Soutar Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Monty. Hello there, Monty, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us Dr Monty Soutar, respected historian and author of a new NZ historical series Monty Soutar: Thank you, Jenny. I’m pleased to be beyond the show. Kia ora ki a koe. (Ed note: Greetings and Hello to you.) Jenny Wheeler: Kia ora. (Hello Yes.) Now we’ve mentioned in the intro about how Roots was partly the thing that sparked this and. Alex Haley’s Roots was published way back in the late seventies when you were just a wee toddler. So how did you come to be aware of it and what sort of an impact did it have on you when you were a younger boy? Monty Soutar: Well, no, I wasn’t a toddler. I was at secondary school when I saw the series. So I never read the book. I saw the series on television. It was one of the I think it was the biggest television series in terms of audience in New Zealand up until that time. And what intrigued me about it was that this guy was able to track his family’s history through really some oral accounts that had been passed down through the family. And it reminded me so much of how Maori keep their records orally. And the other thing that impressed me was his own journey. Towards the end of the series it looked at his story about how he found this information about his family and it resonated with me because I was doing that at pretty much at the same time as young as I was. I was trying to find out more about my family history and in watching the program, it was almost like it grabbed him in a way that he couldn’t let it go. It’s almost like he was meant to do this, and I had that same feeling. I didn’t know why I was interested in history, particularly Maori history. Why in my family, there was seven in my family, brothers and sisters, but I was the one who had this passion to know who we were. Something had been planted it in me. That’s what I found and that’s why Alex Haley’s Roots resonated with me and him particularly, in his journey. Monty Soutar’s starting point in his writing journey Jenny Wheeler: Great. So give us a picture of yourself at that stage. For those who aren’t so familiar with New Zealand, where in New Zealand were you? What tribal affiliations did you have? Set the picture for us a little bit. Monty Soutar: Yes, well, everybody thinks Maori are one group of people. We’re tribal. And there’s slight differences between the tribes. Where you come from actually matters. And I come from on my mother’s side, the East Coast of the North Island from a tribe where people known as Ngati Porou, and on my father’s side, I come from Whakatane from a tribe known as Ngati Awa, who had two entirely different experiences of colonization. One, on my father’s side, they lost all their land as a result of the wars fought in the 1860s. And that meant that their journey post the 1860s was quite a depressing one, and had huge psychological impacts on the people, I believe.  But on my mother’s side, we retained all our land and we fought on the side of the New Zealand government or the British Crown. And so we had a much more favorable future as a result. I was at boarding school in the late seventies – a Catholic boarding school in Fielding at the time. We were born Anglicans, but we’re pretty flexible as Maori people. We all believe we’re praying to the same God and it was the education we were after rather than the religion. That’s where I was as a young person. I wasn’t studying history, because the priest told me it wouldn’t get me a job once I got out of school. I never pursued it then. But I just had this innate interest in learning more about my own history and particularly Maori history. The first in a trilogy covering 200 hundred years Jenny Wheeler: Probably it’s good to point out that this is the first in a trilogy, so this book takes us to the point when the European “discoverers” in the form of Captain James Cook arrive in 1769. The next two books are going to cover the much later development of the story. It’s very much a work in progress at the moment. But the subtitle of the book is, For Such A Time As This, and it’s very much a book of its time. Talk a bit about that subtitle, it comes up in the book, but also it’s relevant to what’s happening in New Zealand right now. Monty Soutar: Yes, it appears a number of times during the story, but right now in New Zealand, we seem to be on the cusp of change in my view. Right now, this year, 2023, we’ve introduced into the New Zealand School Curriculum compulsory learning of New Zealand history, right through from I guess the infants through to the end of secondary school. And that’s a first, which suggests to me that attitudes have changed, where we realize knowing about our past is important. And I think this particular book is written with a view to being introduced in the curriculum. And that’s another reason I did it. I think that 10 years ago maybe, 15 years ago, I don’t think the country was ready to visit the past in terms of our pre-colonial history. Nobody really wants to go there and look at the impact of colonization on the indigenous people of this country and how it shaped New Zealand. I think that this younger generation that’s coming through, they don’t have the issues we had growing up with, I guess with our race relations, with knowing who we really are. A ‘road to Damascus’ experience in the birthing But you know, I do believe that to go forward you’ve got to know where you come from. I think For Such A Time As This is right now is that time and we are ready to revisit our past and I think this novel actually opens the door to the past in a way that none other has done so far. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I do agree with you there. You tell the story of how you came to write it, almost like it’s a spiritual odyssey. It’s like ‘a road to Damascus’ encounter that you had as you were planning or thinking about it. Can you tell us how everything that you’d been doing, perhaps up into that point in your life, grew together and created something quite new and sudden and rather challenging. Monty Soutar: In 2019, I finished my most recent non-fiction book, which was a Nga Tamatoa, History of Maori participation in the First World War. It’s a huge book. It took me about five years to research and write, so I was pretty almost burned out after that and decided to go on holiday with my wife. And because I’d put so much time into that I felt there was an opportunity to just to sit back and have a blow, really. We were heading to Greece for three months to spend time with our friends. But before I left, I had an inkling that there’s something I’m supposed to do next, and it’s not non-fiction. I was thinking about it and I thought it might be that I’m going to turn to fiction, largely because I felt that the audience through non-fiction is not as great  and as well, the audience I was really interested in was young people, I felt that fiction was the way to reach them, but I just didn’t quite know what I was going to write. I was in bed with my wife at about 4:30am, if I remember right. I guess because I was thinking about it. I was half asleep and I heard this voice. I didn’t actually hear it, but this impression in my mind just said, ‘Get Roots.’ It was clear and I woke up about an hour and a half later and I said to my wife, ‘Hey, we’ve got to get this book, Roots.’ The voice of ‘intuition’ speaks I knew all it said was ‘Get Roots,’ but somehow I knew and understood what that meant. It was to get the book Roots and read it which I’d never read. As I was mentioning to you before Jenny, the Roots TV series was well known to me from the 1970s. My wife has heard me before say that I’ve heard things and she knows enough about me to know that this is actually could be real. I wasn’t sure, but we were heading back to Gisborne. It was a Sunday in Auckland, so there’s no bookshops open. And I said, well, the book’s so old, you probably have to go to second hand bookshop or a rare bookshop. We’re driving back to Gisborne and we get to this little place called Paeroa, which is a little town between Auckland and Gisborne, on a Sunday when you wouldn’t expect anything to be open. I was asleep and my wife was driving and she nudged me and she said, “Hey, look. There’s a Red Cross book sale on the side of the road,” and I looked up and sure enough, and there were these boxes of books there that were being sold and on a Sunday. It’s was pretty amazing that there was one. We stopped and we said, ‘well, let’s have a look. Who knows, that book Roots might be here?’ They had them in alphabetical order in the boxes A- Z and I walked straight to the box that had the Rs, the books with Rs, and they’re all spine down. You had to look at the spine to see what the title was, but in this particular box there was one book sitting on top of all the others with the cover down. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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The book was sitting there like it was waiting for somebody, and I turned it over and it was the Roots book by Alex Haley. I looked at my wife, she looked at me, and we knew then that whatever I had heard, whatever this impression voice was, meant something that I was supposed to do. I took the book to Greece and I read it, Alex Haley’s novel. And long story short, I came to the understanding in my mind that I’m supposed to write a novel like this. Roots is about six generations of a Black American family starting from their ancestor being captured in Africa and brought to America. I felt that I was to write a saga like that, which followed a number of generations of a Maori family in order to tell the history of this country in a way that it’s never been told before. That’s what I had come up with. I spent a bit of time in France after Greece, and we went to a resort where it was really quiet and I know from the past that if you block everything else out and you focus, you can start to hear things that you mightn’t if you’re busy with life. After a seven day fast and a retreat, which I had learned from the Catholics when I was at boarding school, I started, well, even five days into it, I started to hear this impression again in my head. And I wrote down what I was being told. And there were three things, three big things that I believed I had to do once I got back to New Zealand. Three points of action required One was to, to leave my job. I worked for the government as a historian. Two was I had to sell my house or our house, my wife and I. I understood that was to give me some income to be able to write the series that I’ve started on. The third one was to write the series. So leave work, sell the house, write the series. I’m that sort of person who’s, if I hadn’t seen the Roots book there, sitting on that box, I might’ve been had some doubts, but I believed that there was some sort of divine guidance that was leading me into doing this, that I was ready to do it, no questions asked, but I had to ask my wife, of course, because it was going to have an impact on her. And I can say that she wasn’t keen, immediately, but through some things that happened I think she realized this is something that has to be done and, I’m meant to do it. We came back to New Zealand and I followed that plan and that’s how I got to into writing the Kawai series. Jenny Wheeler: Is she reassured that it is the right thing to do? Now that you’ve got one book out, is she on board with it now? Monty Soutar: Yes. Definitely. I mean, what’s happened with this first book you can’t put this down to me because, I don’t have any experience in writing novels. I’ve never written fiction before. The response that I’ve had to the book, she’s seen it too. She was my greatest critic actually, because she’s read a lot of novels. A best seller at the top for 22 weeks And she used to say all the way through the drafting of it. ‘This doesn’t sound like a novel. This sounds like you, a historian, writing nonfiction.’ And it used to grate at me. But I used to measure how good the book was based on the feedback she’d give to me. Just the things that have happened with this book and just how it’s taken off, I know you can’t put that down to me and my ability. That whatever this was that’s guiding me, this is all meant to happen and I have no doubt about that. Jenny Wheeler: And it has sold very well, hasn’t it Monty Soutar: Well, it went straight to number one, New Zealand fiction in the week it was launched and it stayed there for 22 weeks at number one. I heard of some sort of a record. And I really can’t explain why people, well, such a diverse group in the population, are reading it, because it’s not one group of people. It’s a wide range. I mean, the greatest thrill I get is people who come to me and say, ‘Look, I’ve never read a book since I left secondary school, but this book has encouraged me to read’ and I think that has to be put down that people do actually want to know something about the history of this country. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s right. Now the book does tackle some difficult subjects because Maori culture had it’s wars and brutal aspects, and you’ve tackled those head on with a great deal of honesty and made it understandable, how that culture operated and the way it really hung together as a cohesive unit. Tell us a bit about how you managed to get to that and was it hard to front up to some of those issues? Telling a difficult, brutal story Monty Soutar: For those who don’t know much about New Zealand, the Maori ancestors arrived here some 800 years ago from the Pacific. And they peopled the two islands, well, there’s more than two islands, but the two main islands. As the population grew, in order to protect food resources there was a lot of fighting that went on. And in our history, there was cannibalism, so you ate your enemies and there was polygamy. We had more than one wife or one husband. That’s the kind of culture that was here. It was a tough existence for people, depending on where you were ranked in the tribal structure. If you were a chief, it wasn’t so bad, but if you were less than that, life was quite difficult. But it was also, as the novel describes it a beautiful place, and when the fighting wasn’t happening, people were good to each other and they were close to nature and they had strong spiritual beliefs. So that’s the environment that existed here in this country. I basically start this novel in the 17 hundreds, and we’re right in that environment. There are no, non-Maori here, there were just our ancestors. And I tried to describe what it was like. The other thing about Maori people back then you had to be careful what you said. It was easy to insult somebody. You could say something that was taken the wrong way and that would lead to sometimes the destruction of a whole tribe of people. And with all this fighting going on, if you attack one tribe, you can be assured that they were going to attack you back. A young boy witnesses a traumatic murder If they weren’t going do it immediately because they didn’t have the soldiers to do it or the warriors to do it, they would wait a generation, two, three sometimes, but they would never let it lie. Right up until the first Europeans arrived it was a lot about balancing the books. ‘We owe you for something you did to our ancestors two or three generations ago.’ That’s what I’ve really tried to do in the novel, to create that society so that it’s believable, and to get people to understand how important vengeance was to that society. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Your main character as a young boy, witnesses a massacre where his father and a lot of his close relations die, and he almost miraculously manages to escape from that scene. But it’s obviously very traumatic for him. And then you jump to when he’s young man, 19 or 20 years old, having his first son. And that son is dedicated to basically restoring the mana (the status, the power, the respect) of the tribe by. carrying out warfare against the people that had killed their people a generation before. And we follow that character right through in a very touching way, so that we understand really the dilemma that a person like that faces, whether they were naturally of a warrior spirit or not. If their position in the tribe required it, they had to fulfil that role. Now I know that it’s based on a lot of work you have done on your own genealogy, but you have not called the characters by the names of your family. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Dedicated in the womb to vengeance Tell us a little bit about why you made that call. You’ve slightly clouded it so people can’t just point and say, oh yes, that’s Monty’s ancestor, you’ve made it a little bit more of a mystery. Tell us about why you made that choice. Monty Soutar: Yes. Well, you described that really well. Chapter two is when he’s born, the protagonist for this novel and we really follow him from the womb to the tomb in this story. He’s a flawed hero. What you come to understand in the novel is that if you train a person in to be a warrior, to know nothing else, but to that you get your way through killing, once he had achieved his purpose in life by avenging his grandfather’s death, well he’s got some problems, because he only knows how to conduct life in one way. In terms of my own family, this is based on a true story. That’s why it was so easy for me to tell. And people read the book and they see that you almost empathize with them even though you know you can be quite brutal at times, Jenny Wheeler: I absolutely agree. You leave it at a real cliff hanger at the end, and I’m still hoping that something good happens for him. Monty Soutar: Well, this child, even in the womb, he’s dedicated to the task of avenging his grandfather’s death. He’s got no choice and that’s the sad part about it, that he has no choice in life. He either has to do this or die. And that really was what it was like for a lot of our warrior leaders back in those days, male and female, that their lives were dedicated to causes that weren’t of their making. A very long memory for grievances And it helps to also to explain why Maori have long memories today. The tribunal process that I’ll talk about later, the treaty settlement process shows us that people have not forgotten what happened to their ancestors 150 years ago and they bring it up and it affects their lives even today. I think that the way I wrote it was the way I was told it. Of course, I’ve had to grow it and embellish it in places to make a really good story. But his story is how I heard it on the marae, (meeting place.) I heard it from my own uncles and grand uncles. To protect them, the people, I changed their names, but in such a way that my own family will know who I’m talking about. For example, the prologue opens at a place called Nupe Pa. (Ed note: Pa was a fortified village – now a modern day marae) Now if you try to find that pa on East Coast, it doesn’t exist. But if you turn it around to Penu Pa, that’s the pa everybody knows I come from. And I’ve done that with all the ancestors names. I’ve left enough clues in there for my own people to know who I’m talking about, because I really want them to understand this is a true story. It involves our ancestors and but I don’t want others to, and it doesn’t really matter for others. It’s not that important who these people are. I was thinking too, I just didn’t want people rocking up to our marae. And to some of our places that I’ve written about after the book, because I knew the book was going to take off and that’s happened before with other books and films that have been made about places on East Coast. For Maori, colonization began with the musket So I was conscious of that. The other reason I changed the names too, I was wanting to protect myself, because of the enemy tribes I talk about. If they come knocking on the door and say, ‘Hey, you’re talking about us.’ I’ll be able to say, no, I’m not. Where does it say your tribal name in there? Jenny Wheeler: Yes. That’s very good thinking. Yes, that’s amazing. You end the book as I mentioned on a real cliff hanger. It’s a great way to do it actually. But that does mean that we are left really hanging to know where the next book is going to begin and when we’re going to be able to read it. How are you going with the process of writing a trilogy? Monty Soutar: The second book – I wrote the whole plan out and the structure for it, what’s to happen in each chapters. And I’ve written about a third of it now. I can’t say it comes easy, but it starts in in 1818, 1819. And that is the period in which muskets are in the hands of some tribes and moving around the country. And we, who have no muskets at that period, faced the onslaught of that and the impact of it. It jumps probably what’s that 40 years or so from the first story, but you get to learn what happened at the end of that other one, not, I don’t want to give it away. But we learn what happened then and then we’ll follow it through. And it goes through to about 1850 – so its about a 30 year period that this next book covers. As I did with the first book, every scene has embedded in it some something of the tikanga – the customs of Maori life back then. And so you see it, even with the beginning of colonization, which really colonization for us, began with the musket. The first Maori European encounter – like a mirage Jenny Wheeler: Now you did do a massive work, which has never seen the light of day. You transcribed your family’s oral history and that’s been tucked away and kept secret for your family. But towards the end of this book, they do have an encounter with European sailors who they hardly even understand are other men. At the beginning, they think that there’s some sort of spiritual or strange people. I wondered just out of curiosity, was that actually taken from any of the oral history records that you transcribed? Monty Soutar: What I can say is that, every story that’s in the novel may not have happened to my family, but it happened on our coast to one of the families around there. And that particular account that you’re referring to is recorded in one of the Maori newspapers and even what was said and how they were perceived and you think about it they’ve never seen white people before. And as I read the account – and it’s written in the Maori language – Captain Cook’s men were rowing towards them with their backs turned, so they thought, ‘well these are some sort of gods, because they’ve got eyes in the back of their heads’ because of the way that they’re coming at us. I tried to imagine even though it’s written about what was said in the conversation between the two groups of people, just what must have been going through my ancestor’s heads, seeing these people for the first time who are fair-skinned. On our coast we have a tradition of turehu or fairy people who are fair-skinned. Monty Soutar’s years on the Waitangi Tribunal And these sailors looked, resembled those people. So you can imagine what they were thinking. These aren’t human. We need to treat them with respect because they’re probably gods or urukehu. Urukehu is what we call people on these East Coast who have fair skin and a reddish Auburn here. And we have a tradition of that. And I think that’s what, who they thought these people were. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Yeah. But moving along from the specific books to your wider career, you’ve mentioned about the tribunal. For those who aren’t so familiar with New Zealand history, perhaps you could just fill in some of the gaps. The Waitangi Tribunal was established to hear grievances for land losses, and you’ve been sitting on it for 20 years. You would’ve heard huge amount of history that never has made it to the general populace during those years. Tell us a bit about that. Monty Soutar: Yes, it’s a Commission of Inquiry and it was set up under an Act of the New Zealand Parliament in 1975. And so, it’s inquisitorial, it’s not adversarial, but we hear evidence from claimants. And we hear the Crown’s response to it. For historical, most of the ones that have been heard to date for historical grievances where the Treaty of Waitangi, which was signed in 1840 between Maori and the Crown which allowed the British the govern, but it protected the rights of Maori. Wherever there’s been a breach, people can bring claims about that breach. And our job is to write a report to the government after we’ve heard all the evidence about whether we believe there’s a breach, here so that the government can then settle those claims. In the process, we hear all this information about that area or the tribes from that area. That really is a privilege. It’s like what I’ve written in the novel, this was in-house information I wrote that’s usually kept for the marae or kept for your family. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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else but themselves about their past. It’s all recorded and we have all the evidence that was put before us, but the only thing that goes public is the reports we write. They’re often quite complex. and difficult to condense, and I think it’s a shame, because it really is New Zealand’s history, that we haven’t done more to make it accessible to New Zealanders. One of the reasons I’m writing this novel series is to take a lot of my experience and drawing from that and through this one family story try and give people insight into what else must be out there. And I’m hoping too, that tribal historians will pick up the pen or pick up the laptop and do for their own areas what I’ve done in terms of the story I’ve taken from the East Coast. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Look Monty as reader because it is The Joys of Binge Reading, we do like to ask everyone we talk to about books they’d like to recommend you may well have some fiction books you want to recommend, but I was particularly curious to hear about the books you read on holiday. I see you referred to the fact that when you were in Greece, you started to reads historical novels so that you get a feel for the historical novel form and perhaps being a reader myself, I was quite curious what historical novels did you read at that point, and do you recall any of them particularly? Monty Soutar: Well, of course I read Roots. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, of course. Yes. What Monty read in preparation for writing Monty Soutar: That was the first one. But some of the ones that come to mind – and you’ve got to remember I’m going from almost zero novel reading because I was only ever interested in non-fiction. If it’s not true, I wasn’t that keen on reading it. But I read this book by a Nigerian author, Chinua Achebe, Things Fall Apart and I was interested in it because it dealt with southeast Nigeria in the pre-colonial period, then the invasion by Europeans, and particularly the impact of Christianity on that part of Nigeria. I found that really interesting. Of course, Tolstoy’s War And Peace. I read particularly because somebody told me that it follows this family through and you watch the kids grow up into marriage and that sort of thing. And I thought that’s what I was going to do with my novel, only follow a guy’s story through. While I was in Greece, I read this book called The Island by Victoria Hislop. And it was about Spinalonga, a beautiful Greek island where they put people with leprosy onto the island. It’s great. A great book. It made me understand more about that sickness and how people reacted to it back in the 1950s. I was fascinated because I love Greece. It really resonated with me. The Red Tent by Anita Diamant, that was about Jacob’s daughter Dinah, who has got a little mention in the Bible, but she takes the story of Dinah and imagines what it must have been like for this daughter. Remember, Jacob had 12 sons and it follows through what happened to her because she was taken by a king of another tribe. And I like that one because, my wife recommended it to me by the way, she had read it. And because I had to get my head into the minds of woman particularly in terms of a love affair. And in my novel the protagonist, he meets the love of his life at a very young age. I wanted to try and understand this young woman and her experiences. And then there was Hilary Mantel’s Wolf Hall which looked at Thomas Cromwell’s rise the power in King Henry VIII’s court. A heartfelt desire to capture young readers Again, I wanted to follow through, because I knew my novel was the story of someone’s life and how they rise the power. And that’s another reason I read that it was recommended to me. And The Luminaries by Eleanor Catton back here in New Zealand, because it had a Maori character in there and it was based in New Zealand. I wanted to learn from that. And I read Patricia Grace’s book Tu, which is about a Maori who goes off the war, because in book three I  probably – well I haven’t planned book three yet, but it’s probably going to touch on a character like that. Jenny Wheeler: You got a lot of reading in, didn’t you? Monty Soutar: Well, I was basically sitting on a beach, my wife and I, and we had to do something and, once I’d realized I’m going write a novel, I thought, well, I don’t know how to do that. I really need to learn very quickly. And I thought the fastest way was to read novels. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, I think it’s lovely that you are very interested to get younger readers involved, younger people interested, and to do that, I think you are right. You do have to use some form of genre to do that. Either book or audio book, or hopefully in the end TV as well, film. This probably will get translated into some sort of visual medium. Because although there are readers it’s much harder for younger people to concentrate on books these days Probably. A book written for TV or film Monty Soutar: Absolutely. And if you’ve read the book, you’ll appreciate that every scene I’ve written and I was told to do it like this, to try and imagine you are watching it on the big screen because young people were my target audience and I know, even at the best of my ability that then a lot of them aren’t going to read, but they’re going to watch it. I’ve written it like a movie, I know it’s a matter of time that it’ll be turned into a movie. I’ve already had a number of approaches. If you read the scenes you can see, people say, you can almost touch the past when you read this book, a past that was never available to people. And it’s because I’ve had in mind to capture young people, I’ve got to get this turned into some sort of moving picture that everybody’s watching it on their phones or they’re going to movies or they’re watching it on their laptops. I’ve got that in mind. The writing, the book series, is only one of the steps towards the outcome that I have in mind. Jenny Wheeler: I can absolutely agree with you that you can, you just feel you can picture it. You feel you do have a much better understanding of what life must have been like then, no doubt about it. Looking back down the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your whole writing career that you change, what would it be? Monty Soutar: I think that I would’ve believed in myself a lot earlier than I have, in terms of my ability to write fiction. I’d thought about it way back in the nineties, actually, even back when I was at intermediate school, when I was about 12. We had this assignment, we had to write a couple of chapters. I think mine was on my uncle who had gone to the Second World War. And the teacher told me then, “oh, you’ve got some ability.” But I didn’t believe it, because there were no role models for me. There was nobody in my family that been in university and most of them that finished school at maybe form two, at the end of primary school. And I didn’t see many Maori who were writers. Witi Ihimaera hadn’t even written his first novel then There just was nothing that showed me that, well, there’s a space for Maori in fiction. So that’s what, yeah. On reflection, I would’ve liked to have changed. I could have, and I probably would’ve written a lot more by now and at a much younger age. The ‘secret’ of Monty’s success Jenny Wheeler: If there was one thing, that you attribute your success, Monty and your writing, what would it be? Monty Soutar: What I attribute my success to? Honestly, I’ve got a strong faith. And I know that this is God that’s really doing this. I don’t, just don’t doubt it. I’ve had enough experience. I know where that voice came from. I know that. I say in the in the back of my book that you speak to God through prayer and he speaks to you through intuition. And I know the success of this book and the whole series is totally due to him, not me. And I always make that point to people who might understand what I’m talking about. Jenny Wheeler: You still are doing your work on the Waitangi Tribunal. Give us an idea of what your working day looks like now, and how you factor in all the things, the demands you’ve got on your time. Monty Soutar: Remember I left my full-time employment. My only distraction is the tribunal. We have a hearing for about a week, every two months. But in order to prepare for that week’s hearing you’re probably going to read for at least a week and a half. So every second month I’m losing half that month to prepare and go to hearings. Other than that, though, I would be writing or reading anything that is working towards the goal of getting the second book out. But there are distractions. We’re about to have our first grandchild in a couple of weeks. We were hit by Cyclone Gabrielle earlier this year. My father died about a month ago, so it’s almost as if with the second book, there’s something trying to stop me writing it. Where to find Kawai internationally I sometimes I feel like that. But maybe in listening to my story, you’ll realize that I’m a determined person. If I set my mind on something, I will make it happen. Come, hell or high water. And in terms of this year, I expect to have completed this second book around November and then we’ll go into the stages with the editor of refining it for publication next year. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Do you have an overall title for the series? Monty Soutar: Yeah. The series is Kawai, and each book has got a different name that appears like the sub title. This first one was For Such A Time As This. The second one has already got its subtitle. It’s The Tree Of Nourishment. But Kawai will be the name that runs right through.  Kawai in Maori means something like roots, it means lineage or your family line. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, fantastic. Yeah, that’s The Tree Of Nourishment, Monty Soutar: Yes. And I won’t give away what that’s all about. Jenny Wheeler: No, That’s fair enough. Tell us, for international readers, where can they get copies of the book if they’re interested in it? Is it available internationally? Monty Soutar: Yes, well the easiest way to get it internationally is through Fishpond. If you Google on Fishpond and my name you’ll get it, and they ship it everywhere. And if you’re in Australia, Booktopia is probably the most efficient way to get it. Or John Reed books. That’s our distributor over there. I understand it’s available as an ebook on Amazon through Kindle. And it is coming as an audio book. I just can’t tell you what date, but we are working on that because a lot of people here in New Zealand have requested it as an audio book because of the Maori in there. Particularly because, to hear how it’s pronounced. And a lot of people in this country are now learning the Maori language, so that would benefit them. Jenny Wheeler: It does give quite a bit of Maori language, and that’s important because it helps you to really get integrated into the world, but you’ve got a full glossary at the back so that if people are feeling a little bit lost with the language, it’s all there in the back, isn’t it? Where to find Monty online – or in person Monty Soutar: Yes, the glossary is there, but every sentence where they might speak in Maori has got the English translations following straight after it. A lot of people who just want to get to the English will skip the Maori, but the Maori is there to remind people that hey, in that period, this is the language they were speaking and that it, I think it’s another way of helping you to enter that period. Jenny Wheeler: I agree. How do you interact with readers? I don’t know if you’ve got a Facebook page set up or whatever, anything like that, or how can they reach you if they want to introduce a conversation? Monty Soutar: Yes, my Facebook page is Monty Soutar author, Monty Soutar author. And so that’s one way of connecting with me right now. I’m head down of course, and I don’t answer everybody’s queries. And if anybody’s asking me about what’s in the next book or what happened as a result of the first book, I don’t tend to answer those people. Jenny Wheeler: Very cheeky of them to ask, I think. Monty Soutar – at a festival coming your way soon Monty Soutar: Oh, they do. They do. I do appreciate readers feedback. I love going out to the festivals and to the bookshops to talk to readers. It’s rewarding and it enthuses me to carry on writing and you wouldn’t get that unless you’re talking to readers. So yeah, I do welcome it. Jenny Wheeler: Would you consider doing international festivals at this stage? Interrupting your writing process, or were you guarding your time rather? Monty Soutar: Ah, that’s the other thing I should have mentioned, that it’s not just a tribunal I’m doing, but I’ve got a stack of festivals that I’m doing this year, mostly in New Zealand, And Australia have invited me to be part of a festival over there because the book is starting to move in Australia and I’m sure there’ll be more there. I like speaking to people and speaking to audiences. I’ve done that all my life, so I enjoy that. And I just love getting feedback from different cultures. Even though this is a story about Maori and New Zealand the indigenous people of New Zealand, it’ll resonate with people all over the world. I know that all indigenous people when they read this book will see their own story in it. But I also know too that in the same way that New Zealand is on the cusp of change I feel lots of other countries around the world are wanting to find, wanting to know more about how indigenous people, perceive the world. Because we have done so much damage to the world. We’re all starting to realize, well, maybe there’s something in the knowledge that indigenous people have. And for that reason, I think a lot of people will read this novel series. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic, Monty, that’s a great place to finish. Thank you so much for your time today. Monty Soutar: Thank you, Jenny, and I appreciate you contacting me and reading the book and enjoying it as you did. If you enjoyed Monty you will also enjoy Michael Bennett A serial killer investigation led by a tenacious Maori detective Hana Westerman which reveals a darker side to Kiwi paradise and highlights the truth that the past never truly stays buried. Another stunning debut novel from on of New Zealand’s most skilled scree writers. LISTEN TO MICHAEL BENNETT On Binge Reading next week Jenny Wheeler: On Binge Reading next week a complete change of pace, Juliette Fay, and a tender second coming of age love story, The Half Of It. One perfect night. 40 years of buried hurt. One chance to make it right. Can the past ever be fixed with humor and grace? USA today best-selling author Juliet Faye delivers an immensely satisfying page turner. Perfect for fans of Josie Silver and Jojo Moyes. That’s it for today. Remember if you enjoy the podcast, please leave us a review, so others will find us too. Thanks for listening and happy reading.

Jill Santopolo is an international best-selling author who writes sweeping love stories about decisions, regrets, second chances and how families influence the choices we make. Her fourth novel, Stars in an Italian Sky moves from World War II in Italy, to today’s New York in a tender-hearted family saga. Hi there. I’m your host, Julie Wheeler, and in Binge Reading today, Jill talks about how writing helps her understand her own life and why she believes books are essential, not just for our children, but for our human future. Our Giveaway today is the Booksweeps Family Saga and Historical Fiction that was due to close today has been extended for a few more days. I’m putting that up again, so you have a chance to enter and win that library of 50 plus historical and family saga books. Included in it is one of mine – Book Bundle #2 – actually two books, one full length mystery, Poisoned Legacy, (Book #1) and a New York Christmas novella, Tangled Destiny (Book #4). ENTER BOOKSWEEPS HERE The links for where to enter that giveaway can be found in the show notes for this episode on the website, www.thejoysofbinge reading.com, along with the other details, like Jill’s social media contacts and where the books that she recommends can be found as well. And don’t forget if you enjoy the show, do leave a comment somewhere online. so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still by far the best recommendation. Links to things mentioned in the interview The Light We Lost, Jill Santopolo:  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32956365-the-light-we-lost Philomel Penguin Children’s Imprint:  https://www.penguin.com/philomel/ Same Time Next Summer: Annabel Monaghan: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62562931 Nora Goes Off Script: Annabel Monaghan:  https://annabelmonaghan.com/nora-goes-off-script/ Carley Fortune: Meet Me At the Lake: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/61797464-meet-me-at-the-lake The Favor: Adele Griffin: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/63107458 Kristen Harmel, The Paris Daughter:  https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/62327255 The Daydreams, Laura Hankin:  https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/61913611 Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58784475-tomorrow-and-tomorrow-and-tomorrow Where to find Jill Santopolo Online Website: www.jillsantopolo.com Instagram: @jillsantopolo Facebook: @jillsantopoloauthor Introducing author Jill Santopolo Author Jill Santopolo – Sweeping love stories But now here’s Jill. Hello there, Jill, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Jill Santopolo: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Jenny Wheeler: Now you are in New York and I’m a New Zealand, so it’s really fun to be able to make these connections. You’ve got the most amazing range of roles on your CV, which we probably will get into a little bit later on, but the real reason we are here today is to talk about your latest book Stars in an Italian Sky. It’s your fourth novel and it’s a sweeping dual timeline romance that starts in Genoa in World War II and then moves quite quickly to New York in the 2020 ones. Is this the first one where you’ve had a truly historical aspect to your work? Jill Santopolo: Yes, I think so. My first book, The Light We Lost, starts in 2001. By some definitions now people are calling that historical, which is crazy to me. But this is the first one that feels truly – it’s set in 1946 – It’s post-war, it feels truly historical to me in a different sense. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s right. All of your books are about heart searching decisions, about where to go in life, missed opportunities, and how families influence our choices. And I wondered what particularly appeals to you about this territory. Love in all forms, not just romantic Jill Santopolo: I feel like love in all its forms is what connects people. It connects us to our families, to our friends, to people we want to have relationships with. How we navigate those different loves in our life shapes how we live our lives and shapes our path. I always find it interesting when those different loves bring us into conflict for various reasons, or, you the one you have loved turns out to be someone different than you thought they were. There are so many different stories about how love relationships can change and the effect they have on us and the long term effects they have on us too. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, and there is quite often a family dynamic where the parents have a strong view about who their son or daughter should marry, and there’s that terrible tension for the younger generation as to whether they follow their heart or are obedient to the parents, isn’t there? That’s often a feature. Jill Santopolo: Yes, absolutely. And I think every generation has a sort of different societal pressures than the generation before them. There is always that tension between an older and a younger generation. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, regardless of the culture. Now in this story, we alternate Giovanna, who’s a young woman working as a seamstress in Genoa during the war, and Cass, a marketer with a fashionable clothing company in New York, and the men in their lives. In Cass’s case, her grandmother came to the US after the war, a very common pattern in those years. And I note you dedicate the book to your grandmother as well. And I did wonder, because there’s such a close sense of the way Italian families work, whether there was a personal link there for you. Jill’s grandmother and other family all found a place Jill Santopolo: My grandmother is truly one of my favorite people on the planet and always has been. She is now 91 and a half, and she is amazing and strong and wonderful. A lot of the way Cass feels about her grandmother in this book is how I feel about my grandmother. I’ve always thought about the way families are built on the generations before them, and the influence that a matriarch or a patriarch of a family has on successive generations of that family. There’s so much that my grandmother gave to my mother, that my mother then gave to my sisters and myself that I can see her fingerprints on us now, and on the way we are raising our children. There’s a lot of my love for her is in this book. But she did not come over from Italy. This grandmother that I’m talking about is my mother’s mother. My father’s family, his father was the Italian piece. So there’re actually a lot of nods to my grandfather whose name was Michele Vincenzo. Michael Vincent in the us but his name was Vincenzo so I pulled from his name and his mother was Giovanna so I pulled that name for that character, and his sister was Faustina and I used that name as well, so there are connections for me on both sides of the family in the book. Jenny Wheeler: That’s beautiful. Yes. The book does require intricate plotting the two generations and the way that they finally interlink at the beginning. Those two people are not regarded as being any sort of blood relation at all, no connection. It’s gradually as the story unfolds that you see there are links between them. It requires very intricate plotting and we always like to ask, are you one of those people who has it all down on paper before you begin, or do you just let the story unfold in front of you? Plotter or pantser? ‘Somewhere in the middle’ Jill Santopolo: Okay. In the middle. So I definitely don’t have it all planned out. I think I’ve written books that way. I’ve written like work-for-hire books that way, where I just knew I had to knock this book out in a very short period of time and I needed to plot it because otherwise I was not going to be able to hit the deadline I was given. But for these books, I write myself a large synopsis. Like a kind of summary of the story. If I were sitting here just telling you the story of the story and then I read that and I base what I write on that. But it’s really loose. The connections aren’t there. The scene by scene isn’t there. It’s just I know that this happens and I know that this happens, and now I have to figure out how I get from here to there. And for this book in particular, I wrote the two timelines at once. Like I was alternating as I was writing because I knew that there were things I wanted to drop in one timeline that would be relevant in another timeline or things in the later timeline that then you would find out about in the earlier timeline afterwards. So I knew that there were things I wanted to do like that, so I wrote it alternating, but when I revised it, I pulled both timelines apart and revised them separately and then put them. Jenny Wheeler: And the story unfolds actually chapter by chapter, I think almost alternating all the way through the book. Sometimes there might be two or three in one go if there’s a particularly dramatic thing happening. But in general, you have what is happening in Genoa in the Second World War and post-war, and then you have what’s happening in New York and they alternate, don’t they? Jill Santopolo: Yeah, for the most part until they come together. The Light We Lost made an amazing debut Jenny Wheeler: Your debut, novel… You’ve mentioned The Light We Lost was an amazing success for a debut author. You were a Reese Witherspoon Book Club Choice, and also, it’s been optioned for film. How was that for you, and how’s the movie or TV progressing? Is it underway? Jill Santopolo: It was an incredibly mind-blowing experience, having The Light We Lost come out, and get chosen as a Reese Witherspoon Book Club pick. It’s been licensed in 35 territories right now. It was one of those things where you have to live in the moment right now because this is a magical thing that might never happen again in your life. You really need to appreciate this, because the responses were really wonderful. And the film so far? I feel like I got a crash course in movie production as this book has been optioned. So there have been a bunch of steps, and I know there are still a bunch more to go, but I have read a script that I think is wonderful. I’m crossing my fingers. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Had you written anything at all before The Light We Lost? Jill Santopolo: I had written a whole bunch of children’s chapter books A series of 12 that were work-for-hires. I basically auditioned to be the pen that writes the story that a publishing house came up with. I wrote two children’s mysteries that were an homage to my own childhood of loving mysteries. And I wrote two Choose Your Own Romance books for teens. We called them the Follow Your Heart books. In the same way that you could choose to go into the castle or go into the jungle or whatever, when you were reading a Choose You’re an Adventure book, it was like, do you want to talk to the lifeguard or do you want to talk to the guy selling ice cream on the beach? I wrote those before I started writing books for adults. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Jill Santopolo; Inspired by children’s books Jenny Wheeler: Well, that’s interesting because now one of your main roles when you are not writing for your own stories is for the publisher Philomel an Imprint of Penguin Young Readers, and you’ve edited any now critically acclaimed, award-winning and best-selling books for children, cooperating with names like Chelsea Clinton and Kamala Harris. Tell us a little bit about that work now. Jill Santopolo: I really believe that children’s books have the ability to affect the future and affect the future of society. And there are so many remarkable people, including Chelsea, including Kamala, who I think can empower young readers to really make a difference in the world, to see things differently, think about themselves differently. I get such joy out of working with these people to bring stories to kids, bring their messages to kids, and hope that it helps kids feel more confident and more empowered to realize their dreams and make a difference and do what they want to do and be who they are and be a wonderful, contributing part of their community. Jenny Wheeler: There’s a lot of concern expressed these days about how children aren’t reading and even adults as well, actually. I’ve had a lot of authors say to me since Covid, they’re reading, even if they were passionate readers, has been greatly disturbed and they find concentration on the written word, harder. What’s your take on all of that? Humans connect with story telling Jill Santopolo: I think people will always love stories and gravitate towards stories. And whether those stories are in books or on television or in songs or in a million other places, I think hearing stories and telling stories is how we as humans connect with each other and also process everything that’s going on. And I think sometimes books are hard to focus on if there’s so much else going on in the world. But I also think that when you can escape into a book or a movie or a music album, you really do go to a different place and you can understand and think about things differently because you come away with a different perspective. Jenny Wheeler: You obviously wouldn’t be hard ine about the idea of audiobooks. Anything that encourages stories? Jill Santopolo: Absolutely. I love audio books. I actually recorded my first three audio books myself. Which was wonderful. I didn’t do the last one because my Italian is not great and someone really needed to sound good there. I love audiobooks and I’m a huge fan of audiobooks. I’m also a huge fan of e-books. I’m a huge fan of print books. I’m a huge fan of any sort of way that people can get those stories. Jenny Wheeler: Many of the authors we talk to have written stories when they’re relatively young, but I think your story of the first book you wrote probably takes first prize. Tell us about your first book. Jill Santopolo: Writing her first book at three years old Jill Santopolo: Just to give background on this, my mother before she retired was an elementary school teacher. So we did a lot of projects at home. And I wanted to, when I was three years old, I wanted to write a book. She told me that I should tell her the story and she was going to write it down, and then I was going to illustrate it. I wrote a book called Stacey the Cat, about a magical cat who, if you pat her, turns you into a mat. I’m not sure really where the idea came from other than the fact that a lot of the words rhyme. So maybe I was just learning about rhymes. That might have been it. But my mom wrote the words to the story that I dictated to her and then I illustrated them. And then she brought them to work to put them through the lamination machine , and so then I had the only copy and I have still got it here. Jenny Wheeler: Gorgeous. Turning away from the books to looking at your wider career. You’ve got so much happening with all the various roles we haven’t mentioned. You’re on a lot of academic committees and other organizations that promote children’s literature as well as having these very best-selling books and a young daughter. How do you manage not to get overwhelmed with everything you’ve got there? Jill Santopolo: Oh, I do get overwhelmed for sure. But I think tiny steps has always been the way that I have gotten through any project and any challenge. For writing, for example, when I was in graduate school, we had to write 50 pages a month and. My friends and I would bet each other how many pages we could write a day or a week. Writing essential way to understand the world And, by breaking it into these tiny little bits and saying I could write three pages today. Of course I can write three pages today. That’s not a big deal. You write three pages a day for long enough and you’ve hit your target, and I feel that way too. I mean, I have lots of lists, but it’s things like, Okay. I know I need to sign my daughter up for a bunch of programs for the summer. I can sign her up for one today that’s easy, and then sign her up for one every day in a few days. I’ve signed her up for all the things she needs to get signed up for, so that’s really been my attitude always about things and I think it’s helped me juggle a lot without feeling like I’m juggling a lot. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Jill Santopolo: There are definitely points where I get entirely overwhelmed and I’m doing triage and just trying to get the things that actually need to get done. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Writing must be an absolutely essential part of life for you because otherwise I would understand if at your age and stage of life with a young child, you might think, oh, well give it another 10 years when she’s at school. What is it that made it feel essential that you had to have, particularly these adult novels, as part of your life? Jill Santopolo: You know, I think the way I exist in the world is I process everything through writing. I think I understand myself and my experiences better after I have written through them and written about them. I always say that even if I weren’t trying to get my work published, I would probably still write stories. Finding a routine that works on all sides And I can tell if I haven’t written for a while that everything is starting to feel a little frenetic. And if I can sit down for an hour and get into a story, I come out much calmer. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. So where do you fit your writing in on your day? Jill Santopolo: I haven’t quite settled on a specific time. There was a while where I would reserve one day a week or two days a week for writing, and other days I would edit. Recently I’ve tried to set apart like a number of an hour a day or a half hour a day, or just to get a little bit in bit by bit. I think given my first choice, I would write probably for a few hours every morning before doing anything else, which isn’t always possible, but is a goal. Jenny Wheeler: If there was one thing that you would see as the “ secret of your success” in your creative career, and it can be your writing and all your publishing, what would it be? Jill Santopolo: That’s a great question. I think it would be not being afraid to be vulnerable, because I think a lot of my stories are connected to situations that I’ve been in, in which I have felt particularly vulnerable and have given that vulnerability to my characters, which I think connects with readers. And also, allowing myself to be vulnerable and putting things out on the table when I’m editing too, and saying this may not be the easy way to, to do this, but this I think will be the most powerful way to do this. And let’s talk about it. Yeah, I think vulnerability. Jenny Wheeler: That’s a great answer because even publishing a book, you have to be vulnerable, don’t you? Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Being a writer means being vulnerable Jill Santopolo: Yeah, absolutely. Because you’re putting your, at least I, I’m putting, a lot of my heart on a page and then putting that page out in the world. And there are people who love it and people who say really unkind things about it too. And you just have to be willing to do that. If you’re going to write and hope that the people who your story touches, whether it makes them feel less alone in something they’re going through or takes them away from a difficult time or whatever, that it’s worth it. That’s why I do it. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. We talked a little bit about this before we came on air, but your stories are romances and family sagas, and when you think about particularly the area of genre fiction and how publishers, in particular like writers to really focus on an identified viable niche. What would you call your stories? Jill Santopolo: I’ve always thought of them as love stories and love in all its forms, not just romantic love. The love of families, the love of friends and the love of lovers. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, that’s a great way to describe them. And it very much widens the idea of romance. I’ve noticed actually, there’s a real expansion in this part of the market. Stories that were once regarded as “romances” are now much wider in definition. Jill Santopolo: Yes, I think that’s probably true. I think that there are the more traditional kinds of romances. What you think of when you think of a romance novel. But then I think that there are lots of stories about love that are out there. Jenny Wheeler: Also, the aspect of the Second Chance romance, because that does come into your story as well. An older couple who are finding love and that’s very much something that seems to have blossomed a lot in the last few years. What Jill Santopolo is reading now Jill Santopolo: I think finding love at every age and there’s beauty in love no matter when you find it. and I think that’s an important thing to. continuously think about. Jenny Wheeler: Turning to Jill as reader because this is the Binge Reading podcast. A lot of our listeners love reading through authors back lists and moving on to the next book. Tell us about your own reading tastes. Maybe you don’t have much time at all for reading at the moment, but in the past, what has grabbed you and what are you reading at the moment if you have any time to do it? Jill Santopolo: I love reading love stories, which I get a lot of from various. editors and publishers, oftentimes asking for blurbs or just sending it to me. And I literally this weekend finished Annabel Monaghan’s newest novel, which is called Same Time Next Summer. I loved Nora Goes Off Script which was her first novel that came out last year. This was her second, and I also absolutely love this one. And before that, I read meet Me at the Lake by Carley Fortune, which is also the second one of hers that I loved. And I think next up on my desk is The Favor by Adele Griffin, which I’m excited to read about as well. I’ve heard some wonderful things and I also recently read The Daydreams by Laura Hankin, which is a wonderful book that is like it talk about genre jumping. It’s like part love story, part mystery, part coming of age novel and a lot of fun with a lot of nineties an early two thousands pop music in it. Looking back down the tunnel of time… Jenny Wheeler: That sounds fun. Looking down back the tunnel of time, if there was one thing about your creative career that you’d change, what would it be? Jill Santopolo: That’s a great question. It took me six years approximately to get up the courage to show pages of The Light We Lost to anybody, and I think I would’ve tried to get myself the courage to do that sooner. Jenny Wheeler: So did it take you more or less six years to write that first book? Jill Santopolo: Yes. Jenny Wheeler: I’m sure a lot of people would find that encouraging too. Jill Santopolo: I also just read The Paris Daughter by Kristen Harmel, which is fantastic. Jenny Wheeler: Now are all of these, they all sound as if they are in a similar range to the ones you write that they’re about love and family. Would that be a right expectation? Jill Santopolo: Yes, I think so. And I think that’s because that’s what people send me. I mean, it’s been very rare these days that I go out and choose a book for myself because so many come to my house for me. And they all sound so wonderful. The last book that I actually went to a bookstore to buy was Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow by Gabrielle Zevin, which I also thought was phenomenal. People talk about a book slump, but I feel like it’s the opposite. I’ve been on like a book high. I’ve read so many books that I’ve really enjoyed. What is next for Jill Santopolo, author Jenny Wheeler: Because people think they know your taste. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Jill Santopolo: Yes, I think so. Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for Jill, the author, looking ahead in the next 12 months, what have you got on your desk in terms of your creative side of life? Jill Santopolo: I have a new book that I’m working on that I’m still figuring out exactly how it’s going to work and what it’s going to be. I’m about, I guess 5,000 words in so still meandering in the first scene setting. Jenny Wheeler: Have you done the synopsis already? Jill Santopolo: Yes. I’ve done the synopsis and now I’m starting to find my footing. The synopsis to write the first few chapters and seeing how it goes. Jenny Wheeler: Is it another dual timeline and has it got a historical aspect? Jill Santopolo: It does not. It is a single timeline and it involves some characters that readers of mine may already know. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that sounds tantalizing. Jill Santopolo: Yes. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Where to find Jill Santopolo online Jenny Wheeler: That’s fun. Now the obvious question to round us up because we are out of time, do you enjoy interacting with your readers and where can they find you online or how do you like to interact with them? Jill Santopolo: I do I love going to bookstores and actually meeting people in person and talking to them face to face I think is wonderful. I also love, which I do all the time, Zooming into book clubs. And chatting with people about any questions they might have after reading my books. So that’s super fun. And then also I am like basically parked on Twitter, but I don’t Tweet. I do Instagram a lot though, so if someone is looking for me, I’m on Instagram @Jill Santopolo. I also am on Facebook @JillSantopoloauthor. But I think if you. want everything that I post, it’s Instagram. Jenny Wheeler: Great. Wonderful. Jill Santopolo: I also have a website, jillsantopolo.com. If anybody wants just random information like about Stacey the cat. Jenny Wheeler: Lovely. And just one last question. That was a little piquing mention about book clubs. If people wanted to ask you from a book club how’s the best way to approach that? Jill Santopolo: Email me at jillsantopolo.com and let me know what book your book club is reading and when, approximately-ish you’re looking for a visit from me and we’ll figure it out. Jenny Wheeler: Lovely look, Jill, thank you so much. You’ve been a delightful guest and it’s been wonderful talking. Jill Santopolo: It’s been wonderful chatting with you. Thank you for all these questions. Jenny Wheeler: Bye now. If you enjoyed Jill you might also love… Anita Abriel and The Italian Girl – WWII Spies. Love and Stolen Art LISTEN TO ANITA HERE Next week on Binge Reading A Kiwi historical epic inspired by Alex Haley’s Roots. Kāwai: For Such A Time As This by respected New Zealand historian Monty Soutar. A gripping story of life in pre-European Aotearoa that draws on decades of researching closely guarded oral histories stretching back hundreds of years,  The first in a planned trilogy of pre-colonial and post-colonial life in New Zealand. Thank you. see you next week. remember if you enjoyed the show, leave a comment. So others will find us too. Thanks for listening and happy reading.

Amy Vansant writes gritty thrillers and cozy mysteries which have one thing in common – they’re all funny because as Amy says – she tried to do serious books but they always ended up full of jokes. Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today Amy talks about her Shee McQueen series about a family friendly team of mercenaries, and her Pineapple Port cozies, set in a 55+ Florida resort. This Week’s Giveaway Our Giveaway is another Booksweeps draw – Link To The Past – Historical and Family Saga stories – 51 books, and an E-Reader. It’s open internationally… Included in this is my Of Gold & Blood Series 2 Book Bundle consisting of Books 1 and 4 in the series.. Poisoned Legacy and the New York Christmas novella Tangled Destiny, the prequel. 50+ novels, 1 E-Reader $550 value I know many of you will appreciate that because we have listeners from all over the world, so this is your chance to win a library! enter booksweeps draw Or – if button doesn’t work – https://www.booksweeps.com/giveaway/may23-win-a-bundle-of-historical-fiction-and-family-sagas/ You can now look for Binge Reading on YouTube if you like to consume your podcasts that way – as increasing numbers of listeners like to. And don’t forget, if you enjoy the show leave us a positive comment so others will find us too – word of mouth is still the best publicity anyone can get! Links to things in the show Amy Vansant – Kilty urban fantasy series: https://amyvansant.com/books/kilty-urban-fantasy Loggerhead Florida: https://myfwc.com/research/wildlife/sea-turtles/nesting/loggerhead/ Authors XP: https://authorsxp.com/ Life Hacks: https://amyvansant.com/lifehacks Where to find Amy Vansant https://amyvansant.com/ https://amyvansant.com/enter-to-win-kindle-books But now here’s our show. Hello there, Amy. And welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Amy Vansant: Thank you. It’s great to be here. Thriller and cozy mystery author Amy Vansant with Archer the bordoodle Jenny Wheeler: You’re a USA Today and Wall Street Journal best selling author, and you’re writing across a range of genres, from thrillers to cozy mysteries, some romcoms and fantasy. How did you get started on this trip? Amy Vansant: I was always a writer ever since I was young. Ever since I could barely write anything, it just seemed like what I was supposed to do. I was the East Coast editor of Surfer Magazine for about five years, and I did a lot of freelance writing for magazines and I wrote a non-fiction book about surfing. And right about then was the time that the internet started to get big. I started to do web design as a side gig, and it turned out that was the next big thing. I ended up doing websites, and I started a web firm for 20 years. I still have it. And then one day I woke up and said, what am I doing? Why am I not writing? I was always supposed to be a writer, so I went back to it. Shee McQueen and the family friendly mercenaries Jenny Wheeler: That’s fabulous. And this Shee McQueen series, which is one of the ones we’re talking about today. It’s your thriller series. One of the critics has got a gorgeous line to describe it. They say, “Think Stephanie Plum goes to Florida. Full stop. With Jack Reacher.” That just seems to me to say it all, and we are looking at number five in the series, which is The Girl Who Saw The Truth. Now, this whole thriller series is built around troubled mercenaries looking for redemption, and once again, I wondered where did that concept spring from? Amy Vansant: I think it mostly just came from the fact that my other series, which is a cozy mystery is so tame that I wanted to do something that had a little more bite to it, to just to break it up for me more than anything. I came along with this idea and put the hotel that the father runs where my house is in real life. I pretended there was a hotel here instead of my house and took it from there. Jenny Wheeler: I think that’s called Loggerhead Inn, is it? Amy Vansant: Yes, because this area Florida has the loggerhead turtle sanctuary here for sea turtles. So that word was at the forefront of my mind. Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. And Shee, your key character, has some unusual qualities, like seeing numbers as pictures. You explained that so clearly and compellingly that I wondered if that was something that you personally experienced. Amy Vansant – an unusually calculating brain Amy Vansant: Yes it’s the way that my brain works. If I see a date, if I know I have something to do the next Wednesday, I don’t see the word Wednesday. I have a visual thing in my head where I’m seeing basically a calendar, and a line of seven boxes. The center calendar item will be lit up or filled in or just otherwise marked in my head. If I have three things to do that day, there’ll be three little lines on that box. So, I know it’s three things. I can’t always remember what three they are, but I know there’s three of them. I’ll keep thinking until I think of the third one if I can’t think of it. And it’s just always how my brain has worked. Jenny Wheeler: That’s amazing. You’re also the master of snappy dialogue in this series, the Shee McQueen series. There’s a lot of fantastic dialogue and it really made me think of some of the streaming TV we are seeing now, like Breaking Bad, some of those series. Have you been rather inspired by TV? Amy Vansant: I definitely do it on purpose. I’ve heard back that readers don’t like a book to end in a cliffhanger. But I think even for my own reading if I get to the end of a chapter and there’s a big punchy cliffhanger, it makes me want to keep reading the book. I want my readers to keep reading the book until they’re finished and then be wanting the next one. I started trying to make sure that something exciting happens at the end of every chapter that makes people want to keep going. And it ended up being very much the way TV is written. Cliff hanger chapters – thanks to streaming TV shows Pineapple Port book 1 – Amy Vansant Jenny Wheeler: It does definitely keep you reading when you are a little bit tired at night. It’s a great way to steer people through the story and your reviewers very much comment on that. Your work’s been compared to some of the masters of this genre. People like James Patterson and Janet Evanovich. That must make you feel good inside some days. Amy Vansant: Oh, definitely. Yes. Jenny Wheeler: As well as the thrillers, you already have mentioned that you do a cozy series, that’s the Pineapple Port series set in a retirement village, a 55 plus Florida community, which you’ve said was inspired by your mother-in-law’s situation. Tell us about Pineapple Port. Amy Vansant: Before I started that series, I was visiting my mother-in-law over on the west coast of Florida, and it’s just such an adorable little place that she lives. They’re all modular homes. So, they’re mobile homes in the sense that they’re modular, but they’re not on wheels. They’re just little boxes. And they all have their little yards that they’re super proud of with all the little knickknacks in there. And I just thought it was adorable and would make a good place to have a series. And then I thought, what if the person that the series is mostly about was young and she grew up there amongst all the retirees, instead of making it strictly about the retirees? And I’d like to the dynamic of old and young, That let me work with. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Getting the technology right in a fast changing world Jenny Wheeler: It’s interesting. I serve at a community which gives out meals once a week, and there are some retirees that come to that meal. One of them has got a much younger granddaughter who comes with them every time that they come. And I’m quite fascinated by this situation. Obviously there is a very similar setup where somebody in this community has got a much younger person living with them, so it’s not so far beyond the realms of possibility that this kind of thing happens, although it probably is rather unusual. Amy Vansant: Yes, and it also gave me the chance to…  there was a lady who was maybe 20 or 30 years older than me that I was talking to when I first started writing. I was reading her books and there were a lot of mentions of things that just weren’t relevant anymore. Someone would sit down at a typewriter to write when you know that now they would sit down at a laptop and it pulled me out of the story, because it wasn’t supposed to be a historical book. It was a contemporary book, except it wasn’t contemporary anymore. I thought to myself, this would be a neat way for me to sneak in the way my brain works. And I’ve of course, got a lot of references that a 50 plus year old person would have. But when they come out of my 26 year old character, it doesn’t matter because she grew up with all these people. So, she might use some kind of old timey phrases and it would just make sense. A nerd who loves her reverse Outlander urban fantasy Kilty As Charged – a reverse Outlander urban fantasy – a time tossed Highlander comes to 21st century Jenny Wheeler: That’s very interesting point because I did feel with the Shee McQueen series that you were way, way up with the technology. I mean, that series, I was really gobsmacked by what I felt was some of the research that you might have done for it because it feels so 21st century. So you’ve got the feet in two camps, haven’t you? Amy Vansant: Yes. Thanks to the web business that I’ve been in for so long. I’m a nerd anyway, so that makes it a little easier. Jenny Wheeler: There’s also a rollicking, fun quality to both of these series of books. They’ve both got a lot of humor in them, and you say that you “tried to write serious books, but they always end up full of jokes, so I gave up.” Tell us a bit about that experience and what serious books did you try to write at the beginning? Amy Vansant: My “Kilty” series, which is definitely super goofy in a good way. It’s about a time traveling Highlander and it was originally going to be dark. I was going to make that my dark series and I didn’t get very far before I started putting jokes in there instead. And I just knew it was never going to work. I can’t have something really intense and dark happen and then have jokes the rest of the time. And I didn’t want not to have jokes. So, one of the things in that book is the idea that the Highlander comes to modern day instead of in Outlander, where it’s the modern day woman going back to the Highlander. Pineapple Port cozies – a change of pace And I thought it would be hilarious if he was, once he got here, obsessed with soap and shampoo and getting showers all the time because that wasn’t something that was readily available for him. And that was one of the things that bothered me about the Outlander series that they never talk about. Of course, cuz I would ruin the romance, but I just knew that he stunk. Jenny Wheeler: I agree with you. Sometimes when I’m in the shower, I think this is such a pure, sweetest pleasure, and I think to all those who people who maybe will probably never, ever have had that simple sensation Amy Vansant: Exactly. And they’re always, in that series falling into bed and whatnot, and it was just like ‘eergh.’ Jenny Wheeler: I notice that the Pineapple Port series are in Kindle Unlimited, and that really makes sense with you being, as you say, a nerd. And you also run a very good promotion business for authors called Authors XP. I wondered if you would like to talk a little bit about the huge changes that are hidden publishing now, including AI. Amy Vansant: I mean, things have certainly gotten harder since I started in 2015 or so. The landscape has changed entirely. Amazon’s so dominant that I think it’s 80% of the books that people read they get from there. That’s why I went with KU personally. I’ve tried to take my books wide once or twice over the years and went running back again. Book marketing becomes more challenging by the day I have friends that are wide, that are perfectly happy being wide, and I think I’m going to take the first Pineapple book and put it on Barnes and Noble and leave the rest of them, just for something different. Because when you’ve got, how many do I have now? I’m just about to release 18 in that series, so it doesn’t kill me to have the one book free for everybody to get them into the series. It’s definitely gotten harder. It’s getting easier for people to publish. If you make it easy, there’s going to be a lot of people publishing. So the competition gets harder. And of course, with AI, I’m having a lot of fun with it. It’s great to use it for certain things like creating subjects for emails and the marketing emails that you’re sending out and even just to keep your brain flowing when you’re writing. If you’re writing and you want a series where two people go to a farm and they find out the alpaca’s been sold stolen, or something like that, and you’re just not sure how it’s all going to go down. You can type a little bit of that scene into AI and it’ll spit out its version of how things happened, and it’s going to be written horribly, but it might give you ideas how you can keep writing with your own stuff. So, it’s not the end of the world, yet. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. And Authors XP also is very good for readers as well, isn’t it? Tell us about XP for readers. Amy Vansant: I offer a daily newsletter that readers can sign up for so they can get notice of books that are free or 99 cents, very much like Book Bub. That’s a newsletter. And I’ve also got a lot of things that readers can do, become beta readers, become reviewers. Work with authors directly, find a lot of new authors. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Authors XP – working for authors and readers Jenny Wheeler: That’s fantastic. Do you mostly read within KU yourself? Amy Vansant: No, actually. I did for a while and then I just don’t have that much time to read, so I canceled it. Plus I give a lot of books away on Authors XP that I have to buy for the readers, so I get a lot of points. And so, it’s not that big a deal for me to buy a book once in a while. Jenny Wheeler: Tell us a little about your typical working week. I know that you have a schedule where you start early in the morning. You’re very much an early riser. Tell us how your normal working day would look. Amy Vansant: Usually get up around four, more or less. It depends on if the dog woke me up or not. And then I’ll work for a while and then I’ll walk the dog and then I’ll come back and usually write at that point until lunch, and then go to lunch and then I just check back in and make sure there’s nothing that needs to be done. I try and get most of my work out of the way in the morning. Jenny Wheeler: Do you write in the mornings and then do a little bit of marketing later in the day Amy Vansant: It’s a little mixed up. I don’t necessarily do a whole lot of anything after two o’clock in the afternoon because I got up so early. My brain’s pretty much dead by then. But it’s mostly work, right? Go back to do a little work. Maybe go back to write a little. Jenny Wheeler: You alternate them as your brain feels a little tired. You go to something different to brush it up. Amy Vansant – the serial entrepreneur Amy Vansant: Exactly. Jenny Wheeler: You’ve also described yourself as a serial entrepreneur. You’ve mentioned the web business. You’ve had a quite a number of other little brainwaves over the years, and you’ve got a life hack section on your website, which outlines some of the things that you’re still working on. Tell us some of your best and worst ideas. Amy Vansant: I haven’t had anything that was that made me rich and I haven’t had anything that made me poor. They’ve all been pretty middle of the road. They keep me going sort of thing. The web company started out as a graphic design and then as the web got bigger, I did that. When I worked for Surfer magazine, I made a little line of surf maps that I drove around the state stopping at every surf shop and selling them. They came in little treasure chests, they looked like little pirate maps and the treasure was where the waves were. They were surfing spots and what else have I done? I don’t even remember half the things I’ve done. I started a company where I went to a place that was near where I lived in Annapolis, Maryland. At the time that sold food wholesale to stores and I shipped it directly to the consumer. I created a little shopping cart and you could buy a box full of say 12 bags of your favorite potato chips instead of having to buy them one at a time. Basically it was Sam’s Club before Sam’s Club, so I always think of something that somebody else does a whole lot better later on. Amy Vansant – surfer girl for Surfer magazine Jenny Wheeler: It sounds like you’ve got an amazing brain though. Amy Vansant: I just wish it was a little more amazing. I wish at the beginning of the web, I wasn’t beaten to Amazon. That would’ve been nice. Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned Surfer magazine a number of times. Were you an active surfer yourself? Amy Vansant: Not as much as I led them to believe. Jenny Wheeler: What was the attraction for you of working for a surfing magazine then? Amy Vansant: My boyfriend at the time surfed and so I thought of an article about surfing colleges that were near the ocean. If you were a surfer, you’d want to go there. And I thought it made a good article. I sent them a query letter asking if they’d be interested in it, and they were and they published that. Then shortly afterwards, the person that they had doing all their East Coast reporting quit and they needed somebody. Since they’re based on the west coast they didn’t know anybody on the East coast so they were like, what about that girl who wrote that article? They called and said, Hey, do you surf at all?’ And I was like, ‘sure.’ Even though I didn’t really much. And that was it. What was Amy Vansant’s goal – and has she achieved it? Jenny Wheeler: Oh, fantastic. That’s lovely. Look, turning away from the specific books to your wider career. How have these various things that you’ve done outside of fiction, fed in or hindered your writing, do you think? Has it helped you? Amy Vansant: I would imagine. I think anything that you do that is more interesting than sitting on your sofa, staring at the wall is going to help when you write. If I have a scene where I need a beach or something where I’ve been, then I can pull from that memory. Also, I’ve always been a trivia nerd. Anything that I do or read or whatnot, it probably ends up in a book at some point or another. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. When you started out writing, what was your main goal and have you reached it yet? Amy Vansant: My main goal was to make a living at it. It’s something I love to do, so that’s the bonus and I can’t really ever see myself not doing it. I do still have AuthorsXP and whatnot, but I do well enough now that if everything else fell away and all I had was writing, I’d be able to survive. I mean, it would great to be New York Times bestselling, yada, yada, yada. But that has happened yet Jenny Wheeler: But you have got USA Today and the Wall Street Journal, Amy Vansant: Quite something! Amy Vansant as reader – what she is reading now Jenny Wheeler: Amy as reader… The podcast is called The Joys of Binge Reading. We do always like to check in with what people’s reading tastes are. I know you’ve mentioned that you don’t have much time for reading at the moment, but even what we might have really loved in the past, tell us a bit about your reading history. Amy Vansant: I read a lot of non-fiction about things that interest me. A lot of them are marketing books. I read one about the history of the banana not that long ago. I’m not sure why, but I did, and I know way too much about bananas now. The last fiction I read was probably Jack Reacher, the number one book. I’m probably the last person to actually get around to reading that, but because people were comparing my work to his, I figured I’d better read it. Plus, I liked the TV show on, I guess it’s Amazon or Netflix. One of them has it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s great. And previous to that, when you were reading fiction, did you start out reading mysteries? Amy Vansant: When I was super young, I read mostly fantasy, which I think is probably pretty standard for kids. And then it was like a lot of general literary type stuff, I would imagine. But I did like mysteries. I’ve always liked mysteries and I like writing mysteries because I have a little problem. What is next for Amy Vansant author? I did write a couple of romantic comedies and managed to make it through it, but because I don’t make plans ahead of time necessarily, I write as I go. Sometime, like with a mystery, you can always say, okay, now how about a fight? Or here’s another twist, or it always seems to be somewhere to go. Whereas if it’s just a romance, it’s kinda like how many times can you have these people not quite hook up before they finally end up together. I’m sure. really good romance writers are great at it, but to me I get a little stuck. Jenny Wheeler: What’s next for Amy the author? What have you got on your desk at the moment? Amy Vansant: I’m pretty much just finishing up the 18th Pineapple Port. After that, I haven’t decided yet whether I’m going to do another Pineapple Port or Shee McQueen. Things don’t sell as well at the end of the year because people start thinking about Christmas and whatnot. So rather than write another book and release it during a time when it won’t be as easy to make a splash, I’m going to write a standalone thriller, although I’m sure there will be humor in it. And then shop that one around with agents and maybe get it with Amazon or some big entity that could step me up to the next level, if at all possible. Jenny Wheeler: You mentioned that word literary a moment ago, and I’m just interested in the way that the publishing world years ago, it was nearly all literary fiction that was taken seriously. And people who wrote genre fiction who were mainly women were not taken seriously. Were you ever attempted to try the literary route with your fiction? Amy Vansant: No, not really. I’m too fond of – like you said – that the TV writing that I do that kind of style that I have. I like the quick hits and the fights and the chase scenes and the humor. I do try to pull in weightier themes if I can, so that’s my little nod to the more literary stuff. But I don’t start with that and it’s more fun. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Amy would do differently second time round Jenny Wheeler:. More storytelling than naval gazing. I think of it as, to be honest. Amy Vansant: Yes. I like to keep things snappy. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time over your creative writing career. Is there anything that, if you could go back a bit like Outlander and change it, would you want to do that and what would it be? Amy Vansant: Two things off the top of my head. I wouldn’t have stopped writing. I would’ve kept writing from the time that I was freelancing for magazines to write novels. Boy, I’d have a lot of novels by now. That would be great. But I definitely wouldn’t have stopped. And then I also, oh, what was the thing that popped in my head the second you said that? I would concentrate more on the genres that I do now and not spend too much time doing so many different genres. As much as I like my urban fantasies, I really do, but I’m not as good at marketing them as I am because I’ve already got a mystery base of readers. Since it’s so hard to mix them – they’re usually two different readers. I know my mother-in-law, loves my mysteries, but when I try and get her into The Kilt series, she’s oh, that’s too weird because it’s got urban fantasy to it. Where to find Amy online So maybe I would take those books and turn them all into mysteries instead. But I don’t know, it would make me sad. Because I do like that storyline. It’s a tough call. Jenny Wheeler: How long did you have as a gap when you weren’t writing? Amy Vansant: Gosh, from maybe like 97 to. 2014.  So 17 years or so. Jenny Wheeler: I know this is a silly question to ask a person who’s a real web nerd, but do you enjoy interacting with your readers, and where can they find you online? Amy Vansant: I’m at Amyvansant.com and, I really do. By email. I’m not a big fan of phones or anything, but I’ll answer anybody who emails me. I don’t do much on social media, but if you join my newsletter and, on amyvan sant.com. I definitely talk a lot to people that’ll write me and say, ‘Hey, you know, I love that last book.’ Or ‘I was thinking that you should do  –blankety blank.’ And I have a lot of contests where I’ll have my readers pick what’s going to be on the next cover or to name a bar or something that’s going be in the next book. So that’s fun. Jenny Wheeler: I was interested in your comment about social media because obviously you are a person who really understands the web a lot better than most of us. Do you find that social media just isn’t worth the energy Amy Vansant: Yes, that’s pretty much it. I did quite a lot with it in the beginning. spent a lot of time, I had – probably still do – I don’t know – I haven’t checked lately, but like 30,000 fans on Twitter. And I think those 30,000 fans probably sold me about one and a half books over the course of five years, while I was spending an hour a day writing content for all my social media, making jokes, getting the followers. That was a lot of time spent that I could have spent actually writing books instead. Amy with the naughtiest family member I don’t find that social media sells books that much for me anyway. Other people might have other experiences. I do Facebook advertising and Amazon advertising. but I spend pretty much zero time on Facebook or Twitter or Instagram or any of those. Jenny Wheeler: Very interesting. you might be the sort of person who’d be interested in trying TikTok though. Colleen Hoover seems to be having a great deal of success on TikTok, Amy Vansant: I think she’s the unicorn there. Jenny Wheeler: Yes, there’s always a unicorn. That’s right. it’s been wonderful talking, Amy. Thank you so, so much. And just before you go, tell us about that dog. Amy with baby Archer. a goony bordoodle. Amy Vansant: My dog? Well, he shows up in the books. He’s Archie in the Shee McQueen series. He is half border collie and half standard poodle. And 100% pain in the neck. But he’s only two. And he’s getting better. But he’s super, super smart and only uses his brains for evil mostly. Jenny Wheeler: And how old is he again? Amy Vansant: Two Jenny Wheeler: Just getting to the point where he might be stabilizing a little bit and becoming an adult. Amy Vansant: Yes, he’s gonna be a great dog one of these days, but he’s still a little young right now. Right now he’s dreaming about getting in the pool. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Thank you so, so much. It’s been a absolute delight to talk. Amy Vansant: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Next week on Binge Reading Next week on Binge Reading, all being well and if international travel scheduling goes our way, New York best selling author, Jill Santopolo and her heart rending, dual timeline romance Stars In An Italian Sky. From Genoa Italy in 1946 to 2017 New York. It’s a sweeping and romantic story about the course of fate, the meaning of family and the power of love. That’s next week, all being well. Jill is currently on holiday in Europe, and we hope that the international flights will allow her to get back in time to record the show. If her plane is delayed, we do have alternative plans. That’s it for today. Don’t forget if you enjoy the show, leave us a positive comment, so others will find us too. Word of mouth still is the best. Happy reading and see you next time.

Ann Parker is the award-winning author of the Silver Rush mystery series set in 19th century Colorado. And yes, that is Silver Rush as distinct from the possibly more well known Gold Rush. Hi there I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler and today Ann talks about how a close family relationship led to her writing the Colorado based Silver Rush series, how she’s combined being a science writer by day with being a fiction writer by night, and why she says being a science writer has been a big advantage in writing the series. Book Giveaway this week Our Giveaway is Murderous May Mysteries, including Book #2 in my Of Gold and Blood mystery series Brother Betrayed, which has also now out in audio for anyone who prefers to listen to their stories. Links for that Give away and all the other things we discuss in this episode can be found in the show notes for this episode at the website, the joys of binge reading.com. And you can now look for Binge Reading on YouTube – audio only, no video. If you like to consume your podcasts through YouTube, now you can hear Binge Reading that way. And don’t forget, if you enjoy the show, leave us a positive comment, so others will find us too. Word of mouth is still the best publicity anyone can get. GET FREE MAY MURDER MYSTERIES Links to this episode Leadville Colorado  https://www.leadville.com/ Barbara Hambly Benjamin January series: https://www.goodreads.com/series/50581-benjamin-january  Louisa Locke:  https://mlouisalocke.com/https://www.goodreads.com/series/50581-benjamin-january Marcia Muller and Bill Pronzini mysteries:  https://www.amazon.com/Books-Marcia-Muller-Bill-Pronzini/ Carpenter and Quincannon series:  https://us.macmillan.com/series/carpenterandquincannon Sulari Gentile, Rowland Sinclair mysteries: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/3856582.Sulari_Gentill Kerry Greenwood: Phryne Fisher series: http://phrynefisher.com/ Michelle Black, Victorian West mysteries:  https://www.michelleblack.com/ Edgar Allan Poe: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Allan_Poe Camille Minichino, the Periodic Table mysteries:  http://www.minichino.com/ Silver Lies: https://www.amazon.com/Silver-Lies-Ann-Parker-audiobook/dp/B00A31112C/ Iron Ties:  https://www.amazon.com/Iron-Ties-Silver-Rush-Mysteries-ebook/dp/B07VMH5B8C/ Fort Sumter: https://www.battlefields.org/learn/civil-war/battles/fort-sumter Where to find Ann Parker online Website: annparker.net Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/annparker.writer Email: [email protected] But now here’s our show. Introducing historical mystery author Ann Parker Jenny Wheeler: Hello there Ann, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Ann Parker – Historical mystery author of Silver Rush Colorado series Ann Parker: Oh, and it’s so great to be here. Thank you, Jenny. Jenny Wheeler: Now just to get our geography straight before we begin. You are in Northern California and I’m in New Zealand and we’re about 16 hours apart. I’m right about Northern California, am I? Ann Parker: That’s correct. Yep. About 50 miles away from San Francisco. Most people know of San Francisco, so yeah. Jenny Wheeler: That’s not that far. I must assume that I have driven up that Captain Cook Highway in the part in the past. Ann Parker: Oh, Captain Cook Highway? I don’t know what that is.. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, I thought that it was the Coastal Road. I thought it was called Captain Cook Highway. Maybe I’ve got that wrong. Ann Parker: oh. You could, I think you’re talking highway 1 0 1, but in any case along the coast, it’s beautiful. Yeah. Jenny Wheeler: It’s gorgeous. You are an award-winning writer with eight books to your credit and they’re called the Silver Rush Mystery Series, and they’re set initially in Leadville, Colorado, although the most recent book, which we’re going to be talking about today, you’ve moved to San Francisco. Tell us how you got started with these. I understand you’ve got a family connection with the Leadville. Tell us about that. Ann Parker: I have a lot of family history in Colorado in general. My parents were raised there, and I still have cousin and a brother who’s there. But it was my paternal grandmother who was raised in Leadville in the late 19th century. And this was a bit of family history I didn’t know until I was, oh gosh, into my forties and heading toward 50. And as a family genealogist, I was shocked because truly all she ever talked about was Denver, Colorado and how wonderful it was and how she met grandpa and stuff. When my uncle told me that my grandmother was raised in Leadville, I was like, what? What’s Leadville? I’ve never heard of this place. And my uncle got very excited and said, ‘Oh my gosh. It was just the biggest mining area, in the country at the time, with silver mining.’ People came from all over. It was like the Gold Rush in California. He says, oh Ann, I know you’ve been thinking about writing some fiction. You need to research Leadville and set a novel there. I just followed my uncle’s directions and it’s been quite a journey. I gotta say Leadville beat the Comstock at its peak Jenny Wheeler: Was it a bigger area than the Nevada area in its time? Ann Parker: In its time it was, People came from all over the world to Leadville and many of them didn’t realize it’s up at 10,000 feet in the Rocky Mountains, so it’s like almost, like two miles. And, there was no infrastructure at first and no railroads. People would get up there and spend their last pocket money and be stuck in a place where winter lasts nine months out of the year. There were some harrowing stories from up there in that time. Yes, it was quite interesting. Jenny Wheeler: Your lady sleuth is Inez Stannert. She has been on quite a journey herself, because she started out on the East coast and she ended up in Leadville. In book one she makes that transition. Tell us a bit about Inez and where she came from. Ann Parker: Okay. first of all, I’ll just say this right out. Inez Stannert is my granny’s maiden name. Jenny Wheeler: Oh. Ann Parker: Now Granny was a very proper woman but I just loved her name. I thought it had such a strong ring to it and I wanted to honor her in some way. I asked the family, the ones that were left, she was long gone, ‘Do you think Granny would be okay if I took her name and gave it to this, rough, strong minded, strong willed woman who runs a saloon?’ They said, ‘oh, she’d love it. she’d just be tickled. She’d think it was great. that’s how the name came about.’ And when I was trying to think of her background, I’d been reading about how a lot of the people who came west started on the East coast and I put together a background where she’s from a wealthy East Coast Family. The father is one of those capitalist industrialist sorts who makes a fortune in iron. None of that’s in the book. Because you don’t really go into a lot of background. But she comes from a very privileged background, but she’s a wild child and she meets this handsome, sweet talking gambling man and she kicks over the traces and heads west with him. That would be her husband Mark Stannert. It was fun to write someone who comes from a privileged background but is able to be a bit of a chameleon and, fashion herself as needs be for the situation. Inez – from East coast socialite to card sharp Jenny Wheeler: Yes. As you mentioned, she has to become a card sharp and a saloon owner in Leadville. There isn’t perhaps too much else for her to do. But she’s moved on through the books. She’s had a rather unrespectable persona in those first few books, but now she’s in San Francisco. She’s gathered a young woman, to her side as a guardian, Antonia. And she’s now trying to remake herself as a respectable businesswoman, largely for Antonia’s sake, so that Antonia will be able to have a decent life. And in this book, a building that she purchases as an investment with a friend, one of the walls tumbles down virtually the first night they own it and there’s a body in the wall and there’s also gold coins in the wall. That’s a great way to start and it’s quite a temptation with all these gold coins to try and find out what’s been going on. Tell us about The Secret In The Wall? That’s the book’s name, isn’t it? Ann Parker: Yes. The Secret In The Wall. And, yes, it’s been a lot of fun, although it was rather unexpected, for Inez to decide she was going to San Francisco, and off she went and bringing Antonio with her. And, she helps women who run small businesses in San Francisco, and she supports them with money and forms business partnerships. I’m always on the lookout for ideas, plot ideas that show up in either historical documents or newspapers. And this body in the wall thing was born from a real incident in San Francisco. where they were digging in the basement or subbasement of a San Francisco house, and unearthed a coffin containing a perfectly preserved body and they had no idea who this was. How did they end up down here? It turns out that the house was sitting on top of what used to be an old cemetery in San Francisco. How a ‘body in a wall’ came about All the bodies had theoretically been moved but they missed a few, including this one. I read that article back in 2016, I think, and it just sat in the back of my mind. I was thinking, that is so cool. And then, when it came time to write this book, it’s like the body just moved into the wall and it was like, whoa, let’s see what happens from here. And Antonia, who’s about 12 or 13, no one’s real sure of her age, she’s fascinated by Treasure Island, which at this point is coming out in serial form in in a young adult magazine. And so when the body falls out along and our fake eye pops out of the skull and rolls across this floor, then you’ve got Antonia  thinking pirates. And Inez is more like, who is this? And who does the gold belong to? Because Inez always has her eye on the financial end of things. So that’s the start of it. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back to Leadville, what’s Leadville like today compared with it was in the 1880s? Ann Parker: It is a much quieter place.  In 1880 there was talk of making it the capital of Colorado. It was that big and that rich. There was a lot of money coming in and coming out of Leadville and there were like, oh, I don’t know, 20,000 people living there up at the top of the mountain and now it’s much quieter. The mining industry has pretty much gone away now. There’s one or two small operations, but it’s become a Mecca for extreme sports. Like for people who will run a hundred miles all above 10,000 feet Jenny Wheeler: Gosh. Ann Parker: And bicycles or cross country ski-ing. People are starting to realize that this is really a lovely place. You get a lot of second home buyers popping up and it’s changing. It was very quiet for a long time. and now I think there’s more interest in it as a place for people to spend time, not just for the history, but for the beauty of the area and for the sports that are possible. Leadville a historic delight for today’s visitors Jenny Wheeler: Are there many historic buildings left? Is it anything like, say Virginia City, where there’s a real sense of the past history? Ann Parker: Oh, yes. At this point, if you walk down Harrison Street, which is the main street in town, Harrison Avenue, they still have the boardwalk. So you can walk on it and get a sense of what that sounds like. If you imagine hundreds and hundreds of feet, walking up and down and going here and going there. And the side avenues and streets also have a lot of the historical houses still. It’s really wonderful. they’ve put together some great hiking trails through the mining district, which is all quiet now. it’s a great place to visit and get a sense of the history. Yeah. You could still do that. They haven’t knocked it all down. Jenny Wheeler: Oh, that’s wonderful. And of course, pretty well, everybody has heard of the Gold Rush, but hardly anybody has heard of the Silver Rush, and certainly not as far as I understand it. Why do you think that is? And what was the difference between the two rushes? Ann Parker: They were about 30 years apart. The California Gold Rush was, 1849, and the Colorado Silver Rush was 1879. That’s about when it ramped up. There were a couple things that were different. The technology had evolved for, separating silver from other metals in the rocks And the thing that intrigued me, the Gold Rush is before the Civil War and the Silver Rush is after the Civil War. So for me, there is this resonance and these repercussions from the US Civil War that for people who lived it, that would be only 20 years in the past. It would still affect them and the incidents and the episodes would still have a resonance. And as to why, it’s not as well-known as the Comstock. I certainly didn’t know about it, until I heard about it from my family. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What attracted Ann Parker to mysteries Jenny Wheeler: And your family was from there, so Yes. Ann Parker: Yeah, their PR wasn’t as good perhaps, or the marketing people. We’re a little quieter. Jenny Wheeler: So why did you decide to write it as a mystery? You could have made it historical fiction or a romance. What attracted you to the mystery genre? Ann Parker: I did toy with the idea of making it a straight historical novel without a dead body. But, as a child I was a voracious reader and along with everything else I read Sherlock Holmes and I read Edgar Allan Poe so I already had a tilt toward mysteries, and in my day job I was sharing an office with another woman who’s a physicist. Her name is Camille Minichino. We became very good friends and Camille decided – Camille’s, this amazing person – She decided ‘I’m going to write a mystery series based on the periodic table.’ Jenny Wheeler: Oh my goodness. Ann Parker: The Hydrogen Murder, The Helium Murder, and so on. And so I got to see her on her path to publication and all the fun she was having. I thought maybe I ought to try to turn my story into a mystery. A mystery also gives you a framework where there’s certain things that have to happen. You have to have clues, you have to play fair, there’s justice to be served somehow or other. And, I liked having that frame, which I could then go in and put up the wallpaper and decide where the furniture was going to go. It’s nice to have the house, the frame of the house. Jenny Wheeler:. You mentioned the Civil War and of course the Civil War does feature in The Secret In The Wall because there’s an aspect of the story that flicks back to that, without perhaps doing any spoiler on it. Can you comment on that a little bit? Is that the only one of your books with a Civil War aspect? The Civil War in California Ann Parker: No. Most of them seem to have a Civil War aspect. It’s just how it works out as I start writing. And, certainly the first, Silver Lies, and Iron Ties, the second have that connection. And definitely in that second one, with the railroads, but yeah, Now, here’s the thing. I am born and raised Californian. I make my trips to Colorado and go, oh, I would love to live here. But then I end up coming back to California where my home is. And nowhere that I can recall in my educational upbringing was I ever told about California’s role in the Civil War. I thought all that happened back east, right Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Yeah. Ann Parker: Fort Sumter, and what have you. As I started to delve into it, because I was curious and I can’t remember exactly what sparked that curiosity, it might have been the gold coins that got me thinking about it. And I was really surprised and really thrilled to find that there was quite a California history. There were people from both sides. supporting both sides during the Civil War. A lot of skullduggery, Just a lot of things going on, and I’m thinking that’s perfect. I’m gonna bring that in somehow. I love learning things along the way. That’s probably one of the most exciting things for me, is learning new stuff when I’m writing. Jenny Wheeler: Of course. A lot of southerners came west after the war as well, didn’t they? Ann Parker: Oh, absolutely. They moved to the west and particularly, as I read in passing, Los Angeles. I think because there’s a lot of farming going on down there and it’s warm. Probably the environment was a lot like the south for agriculture. Jenny Wheeler: So turning away from the specific books to talk a little about your wider career. You are still working as a science writer as you’ve mentioned. Did your friend ever finish all of the periodic table mysteries, by the way? Murder mysteries written around the periodic table Ann Parker: No she didn’t. She got up to, I think oxygen was the last, that would be eight. I think she got further than that. And then she’s continued in short stories Jenny Wheeler: You’ve had a, you’ve had a career in science yourself. Has that helped or played into your fiction career in any way? Ann Parker: Oh, absolutely, in the sense that very early on in my science writing job I had to learn how to research. Basically, how it works is, they assign me a subject, okay, they say, this project has just completed, they’ve got their results. Write an article about it that’s understandable to the, general public. And a lot of times, it’s something I know nothing about. So, I have to contact the, experts. I have to read the background, I have to really dive into the subject, understanding, enough of it plus some to write about it. And that became very handy when researching my fiction, because I’m not a historian, I have no background in history. Everything that I learn, I am learning for the book, so to speak. and also writing of any kind keeps those writing tools sharp. So the day job has been very helpful in those respects. Ann Parker – Making a splash with a debut novel Jenny Wheeler: Now your first book was quite a humdinger in the sense of a debut novel. It got picked up by quite a number of sites as one of the Best Books Of The Year, and now you’ve gone on to write another seven of them. I’m not quite sure how you define success as an author, but I consider that to be a success in its own right, and I wondered, What you’d credit that with? Is there any particular secret you could share with others about how to keep it going. Ann Parker: That’s an interesting one. A secret? I don’t know. For me personally, I have to be passionate about the subject. If I don’t really care about the subject or can’t get involved and excited, why spend my time writing about it? This is for me personally, I know for many writers, it’s a very workman-like type job. It’s write the next one. This is what it’s gonna be about, go and you do it. Success is a funny thing. I was not expecting my little Victorian West mystery to end up so high on the radar, that first one, not at all. So it’s serendipity. A lot of it is just chance. And I think, oh my gosh, I feel for people who come to me and say, how did you do it? I was just in the right place at the right time. I found a publisher after many publishers turned it down. I found a small publisher who said, yes, we’d love to do your book. It could have just as easily ended up in a drawer and never seen the light of day. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. I think it got, the Chicago Times made it a Book Of The Year, I think, didn’t they? Ann Parker: Yeah, it was Chicago Times named it the Best, one of the Best Mysteries of the Year. Publishers Weekly named it one of the Best Mysteries of the Year. It won the Willa Award for best historical fiction. Yeah. You know that first book of mine just racked them in. It made me feel very proud. Very surprised. Novelist Ann Parker’s work process Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful. Do you do more than one a year or what sort of a schedule are you on? Ann Parker: Oh my gosh. I am on no schedule. I write them one at a time. My contracts are for a single book. It’s because my life is as it is and I’m the kind of writer I am. Doing a book of year is not – I have seldom done that. Let me put it that way. For the eight books, you can look at the publishing dates and get an idea. I’ve been at this for 20 years. I have eight books. How come I don’t have 20 books? Oh, very good question. It takes me as long as it takes and, I do tend to be driven by panic and close deadlines. The closer it gets to deadline the faster I write, and I suspect that’s true for a lot of people Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, I’m sure it is. Has the pandemic interfered with your life in any way or changed anything about your writing? Ann Parker: It certainly threw me for a loop personally. I was very worried about family members and work just did this, as for many people, it went 180 from being in the office, having an office environment to working from home. That was it. All the equipment came home, connections were made. This is it. And I’m, moving my little setup. I sit out at the dining table for a while and then I go into an empty bedroom. It really took the wind outta me in a way. But I did manage to write The Secret In The Wall during the pandemic and there are some pieces in the book, some scenes that are very claustrophobic feeling, and that was as a result of how I was feeling while, being stuck at home. I know lots of writers, or any number of them, anyway, who just churned the books out. It was like, oh boy, I’m home alone. I’m gonna write four books a year. That wasn’t me. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Ann Parker is reading now Jenny Wheeler: I understand. This is Binge Reading and so we do like to ask you about your reading tastes. Have you ever been a binge reader in the past and what are you reading at the moment that you could recommend to listeners? Ann Parker: Oh gee. Yes I have binge read in the past, and. I’m trying to think of some. When I was a kid, there was just this wonderful feeling. It felt like I could sit and read for an entire day, just a whole weekend. But anyway, I’m gonna mention a couple of series that I have really enjoyed and found binge readable. One is Barbara Hambly, who writes the Benjamin January series. It’s set in New Orleans in early 18 hundreds featuring, Benjamin January, who’s a physician. And her first book in that series is a Free Man of Color, and it’s really a great book. Oh, I think our whole series is wonderful. And Louisa Locke writes the Victorian San Francisco mysteries, and those are light her cozy and those are wonderful. Her protagonist – she’s had several as the series has gone on – but it started with a woman who ran a boarding house. I often give a nod to Louisa for her amazing research. A lot of times I will turn to her with a question because she did her PhD thesis on working women in the 19th century in the West. My gosh, she’s a wonderful resource and she writes wonderful stories. Another binge-worthy series, a historical detecting duo – it’s the Carpenter and Quincannon Mystery Series. It features a former Secret Service agent and a female Pinkerton agent, and it’s, co-written by Bill Pronzini and Marcia Muller, who are two authors out here in San Francisco area. And those are great fun. gee, I could mention too from your area, Sulari Gentile Some Australian favorites in the line up Jenny Wheeler: Oh, yes. I’m familiar with her, yes. Ann Parker: She writes the Roland Sinclair World War II Mysteries, and the first one in that is A few Right Thinking Men. Those are great. And of course, Kerry Greenwood with Phryne Fisher. Everyone knows Kelly Greenwood. Jenny Wheeler: She’s very famous. Yes. I was interested when you earlier referred to Victorian West because it’s a label that I’ve only just recently become aware of. It has seemed to me in the past that Californian history has been overlooked in the fiction, it’s great to see people like you coming through now, but in the past it’s not quite got the same size of niche as something like Regency England has it? And I wondered if there is a thing called Victorian West that is starting to et some traction, do you think there is or is that just my imagining? Ann Parker: I hope it’s not your imagining. Victorian West was coined by OD Dear, it’s a book back here in my library somewhere, a non-fiction treatise looking at the West because so many people, when they think of the US West during this particular timeframe, they think spurs, cactus, cowboys, Jenny Wheeler: And tumble weed. Ann Parker: And tumbleweeds and a lot of dust. Yes. And it was so much more than that. It had these urban centers and very wealthy areas. and I think it was author Michelle Black, who also wrote a wonderful series. She’s not writing anymore, but she started using the term that she was writing mysteries in the Victorian West. And then we’ve got, Louise Locke with her Victorian San Francisco mysteries. there’s certainly a group of us that are gently trying to push the idea that yes, there was this other side of the west, Jenny Wheeler: I must confess, I’m writing historical mystery set in California in the late sixties and seventies, and at the very early stages of starting to write, I went to a Romance Writers conference. I wasn’t quite sure if I was even writing romance or what at that stage, but I pitched the very first story idea I had before I even had really written anything, and it was a historical story set in California in the 1860s, and the agent said, ‘Oh, no, we, sorry. We don’t handle westerns.’ Is the popularity of ‘Victorian West’ fiction on the rise? Ann Parker: Yeah. Oh my gosh, Jenny Wheeler: I had no idea if this would be regarded as a Western. I’ve seen the quote on your pages that San Francisco was dubbed the Paris of the West by the late sixties. Ann Parker: When I was searching for a publisher and an agent and what have you, for the first book, I heard that so much. Oh, sounds interesting. But we don’t do westerns. It’s no, it’s a mystery set in the west, duh. Jenny Wheeler: I almost think we must try and piggyback on the phrase Gilded Age, California. Maybe that would sell. Ann Parker: There you go. That is a popular phrase. The Gilded Age in the Victorian West. Jenny Wheeler: Looking back down the tunnel of time, is if there was one thing that you could change about your writing career, what would it be? Ann Parker: It would’ve been nice if I could have written a little faster. Truly. And I guess if I was going to be just totally out there, I would’ve loved to have moved to Leadville and spent a whole year there. Seen the entire change of the seasons, maybe, I don’t know, maybe sometime in the future, but ah, the future’s getting shorter as I get older. But I would’ve loved to have done that. Jenny Wheeler:  But then as has moved on now, so you’d have to take Inez back there or find somebody else to be there. Ann Parker: Oh, there’s always ways to move their character around if you decide that’s what you wanna do. Jenny Wheeler: So what’s next for Ann as writer? What have you got on your desk at the moment that you’re working on? Ann Parker: Right now, I am getting ready to retire from the day job. Ann Parker is preparing for full time writing Jenny Wheeler: Ah, Ann Parker: So on my desk are things I need to finish up so that I can leave in a good position. I don’t just wanna throw papers in the air and say bye-bye folks. I wanna finish the projects I’ve got, and I’m gonna take just a little time to decompress after that. But I have ideas for Inez, I have ideas for Antonia. I’m particularly excited about an idea for Antonia, and I’m not gonna go into it because it’s still just rumbling around in my brain and even some other timeframes. I’m hoping that in retirement I will have more time to explore all of this, Jenny Wheeler: Sure. Ann Parker: Right now I’m just gathering research and bookmarking pages for particular ideas so that when I’m ready to sit down and plunge in, I’ll have a lot of research at my fingertips. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. Now, do you enjoy interacting with your readers, and where can they find you online? Ann Parker: Oh, yes. Gosh, I love to hear from readers and chat with them. that’s one of the things that keeps me going. If someone sends me an email  – and you can find my contact information on my website – annparker.net – I always say, it warms my heart and keeps me going. \ It’s one of the reasons I keep writing, people out there love my books. they find that they’re a wonderful way to escape, they learn things, what more can I ask, They can contact me directly through my website. Where to find author Ann Parker online I do have a newsletter sign up, but it comes out at random intervals, like my books, but I always do little giveaways and provide some interesting tidbits about the research I’m doing, Hey folks, you like free books, sign up for my newsletter. And oftentimes, they’re books from people that I admire, and not just my books, but people I’ve read and say, ah, this is a great book, I’m gonna give away a copy. And, I’m on Facebook. You can find me on Facebook. That’s probably my primary social site. I dodge in and outta Twitter and, Instagram. Never Miss out! 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} A fun blog every Wednhesday I’m still trying to get a handle. I’m really slow. That’s why I say take a look at my website, contact me there, send me an email. Take a look at my weekly blog where take a slang phrase  or an idiom. Sometimes the slang dates from the 19th century and is a lost word, and I dive into it to figure out, to find out its origin and how did it come about. That’s great fun. That’s every Wednesdays. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. Now we’ll have those links in the show notes for the episode if people want to follow through with that. So that’ll be on the joys of binge reading.com when your episode appears. It’s been wonderful talking today, and thank you so much for your time. Ann Parker: and thank you, Jenny. I really appreciate this opportunity. Thanks so much. If you enjoyed Ann Parker you might also enjoy.. California Thriller from Paula McLain A dual time line story -When the Stars Go Dark, is a contemporary thriller tackling darker themes of child abduction and abuse. A broken woman, she’s a missing persons detective whose own life is in ruins… But when a missing girls needs her, she must answer the call… listen to paula mcLain Next week on Binge Reading “Think Stephanie Plum goes to Florida. With Jack Reacher. Highly recommended.” Next week on Binge Reading multiple series author, Amy Vansant, who writes gritty mysteries about a female bounty hunter, as well as hilarious cozies, set in a Florida 55 plus age community. Critics compare her fast-moving page-turning funny stories to big names like James Patterson and Janet Evanovich If you enjoy mysteries you won’t want to miss out on next week’s Binge Reading. That’s if for today.  See you next week and Happy Reading!

From Carol Drinkwater, the beloved star of the English TV show. All Creatures Great And Small comes a heart-wrenching World War II romance about a French village that opened its arms as the Nazis closed in Hi, I’m your host Jenny Wheeler. And Carol, our Binge Reading guest author today, is well known for her series of bestsellers about her life on an olive farm in Provence, made into a series of popular nonfiction books and a TV show called Carol Drinkwater’s Secret Provence. But Carol also writes fiction and her latest novel An Act of Love is based on a true story that took place in a mountain village not far from where she lives. It’s a fascinating story. Links to items mentioned in the show: All Creatures Great and Small TV show (2020 Version) https://www.imdb.com/title/tt10590066/ 1978 Series  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_Creatures_Great_and_Small_(1978_TV_series) Carol Drinkwater’s Olive Farm series: http://www.caroldrinkwater.com/gallery/mediterranean_gallery.htm http://www.caroldrinkwater.com/books/theolivefarm Carol Drinkwater’s Secret Provence Tv series (All different areas have different providers – search your location…) https://www.channel5.com/show/a-year-in-provence-with-carol-drinkwater/ Or Prime:  https://www.primevideo.com/hp/video/detail/Carol-Drinkwaters-Secret-Provence/0KPNV7QZY4K2Q0U3FI9AOLF1HE You Tube: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmi4nFcUuHiBZSZXVzB79ghqqwgWm_kR_ Occupied and Free France in World War II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vichy_France# Golden Pennies: https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0222566/ James Herriot penname – real name James Alf Wight  https://www.jamesherriot.org/life-and-times/ Beyond Borders Film Festival: https://beyondborders.gr/en/ https://filmfreeway.com/BeyondBorderInternationalFilmFestival Companion Piece – Ali Smith: https://www.amazon.com/Companion-Piece-Novel-Ali-Smith/dp/0593316371 Seasonal Quartet: Spring and Winter, Ali Smith:  https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40545817-spring Oh William, Elizabeth Strout: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/56294820 Where to find Carol Drinkwater Online Website: http://www.caroldrinkwater.com/ Book Giveaway – Ultimate Reacher Swag Pack $550 in value – two winners – includes Reacher Jacker and 30 books by other thriller authors Book Giveaway: In our Book Giveaway this week, something for Jack Reacher fans or the men in their lives. Only for a Limited Time so enter now! A Booksweeps promotion featuring Reacher swag – a swag pack and book basket containing essential merchandise to add to your collection. Plus 30 awesome books by best-selling and award-winning authors perfect for Reacher fans and fans of the show. (in case button doesn’t work) And remember, if you enjoy Binge Reading, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for others to discover the show and great books they will love to read. But now here’s Carol Hello there. Carolyn. Welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Introducing author Carol Drinkwater Carol Drinkwater: Oh, it’s an honor. Hello? Hello, New Zealand. TV actress and best selling author Carol Drinkwater Jenny Wheeler: We should start by establishing our geographical location. As you’ve mentioned, I’m in New Zealand, and where are you for our listeners benefit? Carol Drinkwater: At the moment, I’m in the south of France overlooking the Bay of Cannes. Jenny Wheeler: Beautiful. Now that’s on your olive farm, is it? Carol Drinkwater: That’s our olive farm. Indeed. Yes. We have two homes in France. One is in the north outside Paris, and the south is the olive farm. Jenny Wheeler: Wonderful. You’ve had a fantastic career. You started out with a wonderful career in tv, including a starring role on a famous show of a few years ago now. All Creatures Great And Small, which I’m sure many of our listeners will still remember, and then you’ve transmuted yourself into, first of all, nonfiction and then fiction writing. Now we’re going to focus a bit at the beginning of this chat on your latest book, which is called An Act of Love. It’s a wonderful World War II story set in a tiny village in the French Alps during the Second World War. Tell us about the story and how you came across it. Carol Drinkwater: Well, though the story is entirely fiction, the incidents are not, and this part of the Alps where the book is set. It’s in fact about an hour inland of our olive farm. And I happened to be up there, oh, I don’t know, just reconnoitering around for looking for ideas and things. And I came upon this village and there was the tiniest museum I’ve ever seen, which no longer exists, sadly. And in there, there were one or two… not exactly photographs, but there were just references to incidents that had happened in the Second World War. A hideaway from Nazis in the Alps And I dug a little deeper and found out that, in fact, this village, because this area was in the free zone of France — the Nazis came in and they took most of France, but they didn’t take this southern section down here. And so Jews were down here, and those who thought that they would in danger from the Nazis came to live in this corner. And then as the Nazis started to move into the Free Zone, it became a dangerous area for anybody who was a target for them, particularly Jews. And this one small village inland of Nice, about an hour’s bus ride inland from Nice, voted a hundred percent to take in refugees. It was a village of about 300 people, just farming people and mountain people. And within, oh, six months there was almost a thousand people there. And all the other people, of course, were foreigners. They were Lithuanian speaking, Polish speaking. They were Jews from all over Europe who were fleeing the Nazis and they were safe for almost a year in this village. I don’t want to give the details away, because that’s what the story is inspired by. It is the most remarkable story of how completely different peoples came together and created for a short while during a war, an area and an environment of peace and acceptance and diversity. And it so inspired me that I thought I must write a story. My story is basically about a Polish Jewish family, but particularly the 17-year-old daughter who is on the cusp of her life, the verge of her life. She’s about to step out, and wants to go dancing and do all the things that young girls want to do for. Fall in love, et cetera. Love in all its dimensions – personal and communal But there she is caught up in a war zone situation. However, within this village, she finds certain areas where she’s welcome and her life begins to open up. So that’s the basis of the story. Jenny Wheeler: And it is about love in all its dimensions, as you’ve outlined. Her most remarkable communal love, but she also does meet up and have an attraction to a young doctor in the village. But the act of love that the book refers to is not just a simple romantic love. We’re not going to give it away, but she makes quite a self-sacrificing act for the benefit of others. I wondered if you could talk about those terms of love at the heart of the book. As I say, it is a wonderful romance, but it’s much more than a romance, isn’t it? Carol Drinkwater: Well, I think the point is that yes, it is much more than a romance and an act of love is actually, yes, it is the act of love. Yes, it is the act of her first experience of a physical relationship with a young man and a young man who is not Jewish, of course, who comes from a totally different background. But more importantly over the time that she’s in this village, what she sees is the risks the local people are taking to hide and look after 500 completely unknown foreigners whose lives are in danger. If they are caught, they will be murdered. And if the villagers are caught, they too will be murdered. So these local people, these French people are putting their lives at risk the act that happens in the book, which is of course an accumulation of many acts. small gestures of love and acceptance build in the eyes of Sara, in the heart of Sara. A young woman growing up in a war She begins to see that actually, life is about giving, it is about opening yourself up to others and taking risks in order that we can all share the best of the world. And in the light of that, she makes a gesture, which I’m not going say what it is. Obviously she takes a step which is extraordinary. Absolutely extraordinary. And there were young women who made similar gestures, similar steps not specifically Sarah’s story because I’ve made that one up, But that becomes one of the most important parts of her growing process, of her maturity into womanhood, to understand that opening her arms to embrace, no matter what the risks are what really makes life worth living. I’s a bit vague because I don’t want to give the story away. Jenny Wheeler: This is not your first fiction that you’ve written, but before you began your fiction, you had a remarkable series of non-fiction books. We’ve already referred to your Olive Farm. And the Olive Farm began as a rather personal love story of your own. Tell us a little bit about. Carol Drinkwater: The whole genesis of the Olive Farm series, there’s about four or five books – well let me just go back before the Olive Farm series, I wrote some fiction. I wrote a book for what I call young adults, which is the nine to 13 market called The Haunted School, which we made into a mini-series, shot it in Australia. I worked quite a lot back then in Australia and visited New Zealand of course. In a way that was the beginning of it all, in Australia. Before The Haunted School, I was shooting in Melbourne, a mini-series called Golden Pennies with actors that included Jason Donovan, who was a very young chap back then. And I met the French producer of this mini-series, Golden Pennies, a man called Michel and he is now my husband. On their first date, he asked her to marry him So the story goes back as far as I met my husband in Sydney. After we’d been, shooting, he turned up to see the rushes and everything from Paris. And on our very first evening for dinner, he asked me to marry him. It was a love story that began in the most extraordinary and unexpected circumstances. I was cradling a broken heart at the time over someone that I’d loved on and off for donkey’s years, and he wouldn’t commit to me. And I went off, I got this job in Australia hoping that I would begin to see life from another perspective and maybe start writing. And that’s where I met Michel. And my heart was open and ready for a new relationship and off we went. It was four years before we got married. But that’s the beginning of this story. And also to say that I wrote at that stage some fiction books. Then after I’d met Michel in Australia, though he asked me to marry him. I didn’t accept straight away. In fact, it was four years before we got married, but we came back or he came back to France and I came back to England at the time. To London and he said, come and visit me. I’m going to the Cannes FilmFestival. So I came down here and I’d been looking all over the world for what I described as my ‘house by the sea.’ Seeking the ‘house by the sea’ I wanted a house that I could relax in, hide away from work, et cetera, when I wasn’t acting and maybe start writing, which is what I had as an ultimate goal. And I’d looked all over the world. I’d looked a lot in Australia. I was looking around Melbourne and all that way and had found one or two places I liked and had thought of staying in Australia. I was offered an Australian residency, so I was thinking of doing that and then, As I say, Michel stepped into my life and he said, come to Cannes. While he was doing business during the Cannes Film Festival, I started looking for my house by the sea. And of course the French said, Bien sur, we have many houses by the sea. And they said, how much have you to spend. And then they were rather sniffy when I gave my, paltry sum of money. One estate agent took pity on us and brought us inland, so not quite on the sea, but I can see the sea from the windows as I talk to you now. He said, ‘well, I know of somewhere.’ He, first of all, took us to somewhere, which is just one stone wall in a field, and. Michel came with me, even though we weren’t looking to buy at that stage together. And then he said, well, I do know of an olive farm and vineyard. I’m not representing it. It’s been squatted. It’s been empty for 10 years, and he brought us here. There were no gates or anything so we could just come up through this winding jungle of land and ridiculously we both fell in love with it. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} A journey for peace around the Mediterranean So that was the beginning of my personal story that has become The Olive Farm and indeed, the commitment to our relationship. I fell in love with this house, this property. I fell in love with Michel, of course. first and foremost, Michel,  then the property, and then the Mediterranean lifestyle. And then as I began to understand and ask myself about the olive trees, I made a 17 month journey on my own round the Mediterranean, in search of the history of the olive tree. I worked with Unesco. They invited me to help them create an olive route of peace around the Mediterranean, particularly in the Middle East. Israel, Palestine, those kinds of countries. Turkey, Greece, the countries where there is conflict and where the olive tree is at the very heart of living. Two of the books, The Olive Route and The Olive Tree are travel books. They narrate my journey around the Mediterranean over 17 months and the other books are set here in Provence. They’re all Mediterranean stories, my personal story and travel stories, but always told from my point of view. So that’s the six books in the series. A rustic life with a leaking roof and no power Carol Drinkwater’s little piece of paradise Jenny Wheeler: Fantastic. And I was really struck, because it sounds very romantic, but I saw a reference, you said, for the first four years we slept on a mattress in the sitting room and cooked over an open fire. That sounds very rustic. How did you survive those years? Carol Drinkwater: Well, to be fair, we weren’t living here full-time, it was because it really was in the beginning, there was no water, there was no electricity, there were no facilities at all. And the place had a leak. It’s got a flat roof, a Mediterranean roof. Although we discovered a leak, there was no kitchen, et cetera, et cetera. But we came here with Michel’s daughters from his first marriage, twin girls, and we had friends sometimes come to visit us. We came, at Christmas and in the summer and things like that. Obviously anyone that came to visit us stayed in hotels. They weren’t mad enough to sleep on mattresses on the floor with us, but we were totally in love. We had no money. That’s not changed a lot, but we really wanted to do this and we spurred each other on. And I think that’s one of the great things about why we complement each other. We are both very willing to take a risk, for example, at our place up north, my husband started an environmental film festival for an entire weekend in early June. It’s coming up now and at first I thought, oh God, millions of people traipsing around the garden, but I’m on board with him now. We put a screen up on the back of what I call our place up there, the mad old chateau. It isn’t a chateau, but it’s an old stone house. So you know, he’s on board for that. So I support him and I think that’s one of the things that makes our relationship work is that, we are enthusiastic for the others most of the time. Nearly 40 years and still going strong Carol and Michel at home – picture credit – Daily Mail Jenny Wheeler: Just to go back to that very first night. Was your breath rather taken away when he asked you to marry him after having known each other such a short time? Carol Drinkwater: Not even 24 hours. I was completely blown away. We hadn’t even had our first course. We were sitting at this little restaurant that doesn’t exist now down at Elizabeth Bay in Sydney. And we hadn’t had any food, but the wine had arrived. I had a good slug of my chardonnay, and I moved straight along, pretended I didn’t hear. But I saw him the next morning in the hotel at breakfast and he came over to my table and said “thank you so much for a lovely evening.” And I said, thank you too. And he said, “but I think you didn’t answer my question.” And I said, “which question was that?” And he said, “Well, I asked you to marry me,” and I said, “well, I didn’t actually take you seriously.”  He said, “I tell you what, I will telephone you.” And we’ve just celebrated our 35th wedding anniversary and in October, because that was in October. October 4th, it will be 39 years since we met. We’ve had some very bad years, we split up for a while and like all marriages, we’ve had ups and downs. But no, I didn’t take him seriously that night. I can see now that he meant it. The challenge of organic olives Guests in the summer garden – Carol Drinkwater Jenny Wheeler: You’ve got some very old trees there, on the farm, as well as new ones that you’ve planted, haven’t you? Carol Drinkwater: We have, some of the trees have been dated at several hundred years old. We’ve planted more trees. Oh, well, it must be 20 years ago now that we, and we still plant an odd one here and there as we change the, layout of the land. We’ve got about 300 and something trees, which might not sound a lot by New Zealand, Australian standards, but land is very precious down here and very expensive. So, it’s quite a lot of trees. It’s a small holding, but nonetheless it’s a considerable small holding. Jenny Wheeler: You’re making your own olive oil still, aren’t you? Carol Drinkwater: We do, we are now organic. That’s been one of my big fights is to look after the environment and that was one of the things when I did my traveling around the Mediterranean for the olive route and the olive tree books was where I saw land being cared for and land being destroyed. And it became something that was very clear for me about how we need to go forward to look after the planet. And I’ve become quite a vocal speaker for anti pesticides, not putting chemicals on the land. So we have an organic olive farm here. There’s nothing goes on this land at all. Every, plant that – I don’t like the word weeds, but everything that is not where we want it to be, is taken up by hand, which is, I can tell you as I get older, I curse myself sometimes for the position I’ve taken on this, but I believe it strongly. We have lots of butterflies and pollinators and I can go outside, I can hear the whole land buzzing and moving. A little piece of paradise And, I feel proud for that. It’s only a little small plot, as I say, but you know, it’s 30,000 square meters. So, I’m proud of that this little piece of paradise is being cared for by someone who’s not trying to do it for money and yes, we do produce our own organic olive oil. Jenny Wheeler: Do you have enough to sell. Do you have it on your website Carol Drinkwater: No. People contact me and say, have you got any olive oil? And if I’ve got any over then I happily will sell it. But it’s very little. it’s not a. business. That’s not my thing, I earn my living as an artist, as a writer, as an actress or whatever it is that I’m doing. By the way, just to say to you the television series I did last year, Carol Drinkwater’s Secret Provence can be Seen in New Zealand. I’ve spoken to people who’ve seen it down there. If I can find out how, I’ll send you an email for it. Okay. I’ll let you know. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. We’ll put that in the show notes because I’m sure people would be interested. Give us an idea about how much your time you’re spending writing, and how much you’re spending on TV and how your life works at the moment in terms of your main interests. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} What Carol is working on next Carol Drinkwater: Well at the moment I’m not doing any television because we finished that series and they wanted to do another series, but we had slight differences about how it would go forward. We’re talking now about something slightly different, which would be lovely. But we’ll see whether or not that gets the green light. I’ve just completed a novel three weeks ago, so I’m biting my nails, waiting for feedback from my agent. That’s a fiction novel set down here on, on a fictionalized vineyard. I’m waiting to see about that. And other than that, I’m writing, articles and bits and reading and then I take the opportunity to work on the land. When I say work on the land, first of all we’re on a terraced hillside, old stone walls and everything. We can’t have tractors and things, but I go out and do weeding and there’s lots of watering to be done as the weather gets hotter. And we’ve had very little rain this year, so it’s a bit of a drought crisis coming up. I do the little jobs, I do maintenance as it were. And then we normally bring in friends or young chaps who come to help over the summer. We have places where people can stay and be with us and be part of our life as it were. They come and stay for a month or something and help us with the watering, or they’ll help to chop wood or whatever it comes to be, simple because there’s not a lot to do with the olive trees in the summer. Sharing paradise with like minded friends They’re growing and they’re pumping up the olives for themselves and, we need to make sure that that they haven’t got any kind of fly coming. And as we don’t spray we have a very fascinating system, which is we hang. half bottles old bottles of mineral water, plastic bottles from the tree. And in that we put a Mediterranean sardine submerged in water. The odor of that attracts the flies. The olive fly has been a Mediterranean problem since the Romans and even before. It goes into the water, not into the fruit, because they lay their eggs in the olive. We spend some of the summer hanging these half bottles from the trees and I go down to the fishmonger and they go, here comes the sardine lady and I order 200 sardines. They’re the summer chores that we do with guests We try to turn it all into a celebration and an understanding or a chance to understand what nature gives to us and how it’s our role to respect and give back, to look after it and not rape it. When the guests come and there’s no rules as such, but I hope that it gives them an opportunity to put their hands into the soil and understand what it means to produce food. Carol’s summer – olives, film festivals and writing Jenny Wheeler: Is there a link where people can actually approach you and ask to come and stay as a tourist? Is that how the setup is Carol Drinkwater: We have a tiny cottage, which is at the foot of the land, which I occasionally I accept guests there. Other than that, as I say, I put friends in it or family in it, or people that want to come and work with us. I have two bizarrely, I have two New Zealand guests there in the cottage at the moment, in May and June. They tend to be tourists who come and stay. Often they’re people that have been many times, or several times before, that are now friends. But it’s very low key. People contact me via my website and if there’s something available, there is, but it’s just a few weeks to the year Jenny Wheeler: The book that you’ve just finished, tell us a little bit about that one. Carol Drinkwater: I’m always nervous about talking about a work in progress, in case my agent says, cut all that. Okay. It’s set on a vineyard. And I’ve done something, all my novels, obviously, in one way or another because I’m an actress and I trained as an actress come from within me, and character is exceedingly important. The charting of females stories. The main character is an actress living on a vineyard that she inherited from her parents with her husband. ‘Without our readers, what would we be?’ They’re both English and they’ve been here about 10 years. When her parents die, she inherits it. For a particular reason for about 10 years without my giving away the story someone claims a connection with her. And that is where the story begins, and this particular person comes to the vineyard and the story begins to unfold from there. And I don’t want to say too much more than that. Jenny Wheeler: Right. Carol Drinkwater: It’s a mystery, but more importantly, than a mystery. It does have mystery elements and thriller elements to it, certainly in the first part of the book. But I think the most important thing I really wanted to investigate was a woman’s place when she reaches a certain age, what does she feel that is still there for her to offer and what lengths she will go to maintain what she feels is her loving role in, in the world? So that’s a bit vague again, but you know, it’s because I don’t like to give the story away. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. When you first started out writing, what was your main goal and have you achieved it? Carol Drinkwater: Well, to get published, of course. So that’s long achieved. I think I’ve now written 25 books. I’m not sure, 24 or 25, and many of them have been bestsellers. I love the fact though it wasn’t specifically my goal, but to reach out to the world. I get letters from all kinds of people, different people. I had one last week which quite broke my heart from a woman who said that she read The Olive Farm and the series of books, The Olive season, et cetera, to her 13-year-old daughter when she was dying of cancer in hospital. And she said it became a point of contact between the two of them and they started to imagine the farm and the girl has survived. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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books have played for me and my daughter as my daughter now looks towards some kind of adulthood. I found that extremely touching and very humbling. I get quite a lot of letters from people who say that their psychiatrists have recommended my books. I don’t know why, because I’ll think of myself as quite mad. But, Hey, how wonderful. And then lots of people who write me because in one way or another, I’ve touched them, and they tell me a bit of their story, which regularly has nothing to do with my story, but they want to share something of themselves in return. And that’s lovely too. And these are men, women, younger women. It’s not specifically women, obviously there are lots and lots of women, but it’s also men who seem to follow and read the books. more the olive farm books than the fiction. I think the fiction is mostly women readers, though I had an email for The House On The Edge of the Cliff yesterday from a gentleman who said someone thrust it upon him and said he must read this novel. And he said, I just wanted to tell you how wonderful I thought he was. So that’s fantastic. What Carol is reading now – mainly women writers That’s been an immense though, not to goal as such, reaching out and touching people in the same way that I think, for example, All Creatures Great And Small, mainly because of the quality of James Herriot’s or Alf Wight’s writing touched people all over the world. I like to think also that, that I have touched people and that was a goal. That was a goal to try to reach and have people say, Hey, I understand, I get that. Jenny Wheeler: Yeah, that’s wonderful. Look, we all. Always do ask about our author’s own reading tastes, and I wondered what you’re reading at the moment and if you’ve got any recommendations for our listeners. Carol Drinkwater: Oh, on my website every time I do a newsletter, I always end up with one or two recommendations. I’m having a woman’s reading phase at the moment. I read a lot of Irish authors because I am Irish. And I read a lot of women writers as well. I’m just reading and I’m ashamed to say it’s my first of hers. I’m reading Ali Smith’s Companion Piece. I haven’t read anything by her before I bought Spring, one of the quartet of her books, which I actually thought were non-fiction books, then when I was in Paris a couple of weeks ago, I went into the bookshop and saw Companion Piece. I bought that and a couple of other books and I’m reading it now, and I’m blown away by her. I think she’s wonderful. As I say, I haven’t read anything by her before. I’ve discovered that Spring is not the first in the quartet, so I’m going to go back and I think it’s Winter is the first, so I’m going to look at that, and then I will read the whole quartet, because if I find a writer I like, I’m one of those people I want to I gorge on them, Jenny Wheeler: Yes. When Carol finds a writer she likes, she reads them all Carol Drinkwater: I look and see what else they’ve got, because I love, because of being a writer, I love seeing the process of their development and, how people grow as writers or as artists generally speaking. I love to follow that journey. I think Companion Piece is Ali’s latest book as far as I know. So I will now go back to the quartet and then last week I read Elizabeth Strout, I read Anything is Possible. I started with her when she was shortlisted for The Booker, I think last year with Oh William, which I loved. I really enjoyed that. I hadn’t read any of the Olive Kitteridge or any of those other books or the Lucy Barton books and I’ve now read a couple of the Lucy Martin books, but not in order because I messed it up. I’m quite keen on her. I enjoyed Oh William very much. I was less keen on Lucy by the Sea and Anything Is Possible. I found a little disappointing, but I still think she’s a very unusual voice and I like that about her. She’s a serious writer. She’s also quite a light writer. you can pick her up in most moods and be able to journey with her a little bit, which I like as well. I bought a couple of books by Irish male writers, both of whom I like very much, John Banfield for example, which I started and then didn’t continue with nothing to do with the quality of the work. Quite simply that my mind was not there at that stage. I was still finishing my own book. And also because at the moment I do feel very inclined to read women’s literature. I’m discovering lots of modern women writers. Looking back down the tunnel of time…. Jenny Wheeler: That’s beautiful. looking down, the tunnel of time, if you had your writing career over again. Is there anything that you would change, and if so, what would it be? Carol Drinkwater: For my writing career. Jenny Wheeler: your creative career, perhaps? Generally either acting or writing. Carol Drinkwater: Well, if I had my acting career over again, I wouldn’t have left all creatures great and small. I think that was an error which I try not to regret because regret is such a negative and waste of time, emotion. But I think, I wanted to write and really settle to that. So I decided to not do any moral creatures and in fact, I could perfectly well have written and continued with all creatures. So, I was newly over here, newly installed over here, newly in love, starting my writing career, and I just wanted to move forward and I didn’t think that it was perfectly possible to take that role with me into my future, which I very easily could have done. So I think that’s something I would change in terms of my writing career. Well, I wish I’d started earlier. I would like to have gone to university, which I didn’t do because I chose to go to a drama school straight away. And I went to a drama school that gave a degree and. An ma, but I was so keen to get on and get out there on the stage that I didn’t think that I needed to give attention to the writing that early on though my parents had encouraged me. But anyway, there we are. I don’t really go in for regret or changes cuz I think it’s negative. I think it’s more important to think, okay, I didn’t do that, so what can I do now that moves me forward positively, otherwise I think if one gets into the past it can drag your energy down. What Carol has got coming up in next 12 months Jenny Wheeler: And look, that’s a great place to ask you one of the questions that I’ll ask everybody, and that is, what does your next 12 months look like? What have you got on your desk? What are you looking forward to working on over the next 12 months? Carol Drinkwater: Well, this is assuming that my agent takes and likes my new novel because we are changing publishing houses, I will, this next week or so, begin another one. I’m looking at ideas in my head. I’m helping my husband set up – because Michel now doesn’t do productions, he runs film festivals, documentary film festivals here, there, and everywhere. We are looking at setting up a Mediterranean film festival, which is perhaps based more on the areas of the Eastern Mediterranean, which of course I know a little bit about because of my travels for the olive route. He would like me to be the director of that festival and I’d be quite interested in doing that because it’s a part of the world that is incredible. I’m sure that in one of my earliest lives I was a Phoenician, that I can come from what today is the Lebanese coast. In my fantasies that’s sailing ships across Europe and bringing olive trees in the very beginning. And talking about anchovies and all those kinds of things. I’m sure that was part of who I was. I’m very keen on this idea of an Eastern Mediterranean Film Festival. I’m starting to do some research on that for him as well. I think that’ll keep me busy. And then as I say there is talk of another television series, so we’ll, in fact, this talk of two television series of as me fronting them. If one of those came up what I didn’t want was too much personal stuff here on the farm. I found that a little intimidating. If it’s more to do with me and my travels and out there and guiding and introducing the audience to my world. The South of France, the Mediterranean, the growing of, organic foods, all those kind of things, I’m really happy to work on something like that. Where to find Carol Drinkwater online A couple of people are out there, beavering away trying to get one of those set up. So that would be fantastic. I’d love to do that. Jenny Wheeler: So Carol Drink Water’s Secret Provence, that is more based around the Olive Farm. Is it? Carol Drinkwater: Well, when they first pitched it to me, it seemed to be that I would be guiding the viewers around the south of France. And indeed it is that, but it’s also, some of it was set here, and Michel is in it as well, which we’d agreed he wouldn’t be, but somehow he got seduced into it and he seemed to love it. We couldn’t get him off stage. No, I’m kidding. Once the camera moves into your house, I’m well aware of how close it gets. And it can’t not, because if you’re honest, that’s the nature of it. It was great fun and we had the two of us had great fun working together on it with the small team. But I don’t want to do too much more of my personal life, I don’t want to become reality television Carol. Jenny Wheeler:We are starting to run out of time together. We could chat away here all night, but do you like interacting with your readers and where can they find you online? Carol Drinkwater: I love it. I really love it. on my website, Carol Drinkwater www.caroldrinkwater.com and there is an email address and they can contact me there. And at events of course, I’m always delighted when people come up afterwards and chat to me and everything I have all the time in the world my readers. Without them, what would we be? I love hearing their stories. I love hearing what they think about the books. Husband Michel’s glorious film festivals And when I get up in the morning, because that’s when the mail comes in from all over the world, I love seeing what’s come in and who’s got something to say and what they’ve been reading and et cetera. So please make contact. I love it. Jenny Wheeler: That’s wonderful and all of these things we’ve been referring to, we will try and make sure we’ve got links in the show notes for this episode so people can easily dip in and find books and find references to your TV programs and all of that kind of thing. We’ll even try and put in some references to your film festivals, Carol Drinkwater: Fantastic. If you want links to any of my husband’s film festival, this one coming up in August called Beyond Borders, which is set on a tiny, absolutely glorious. Greek Island called Castellorizo, which is about a kilometer from Turkey. It’s about as far as Europe goes, so the title of The Festival Beyond Borders is very apt. And that was started by a Greek lady who grew up just outside Istanbul. She knows very well though cross culture and she’s a historian, so that’s where that began.  And Michel has been guiding the festival into a small festival, but an international festival. Lots of Australians come of course, because, there’s a big history between Castellorizo and Australia, which I haven’t got time to go into now, but anyone can look it up. It has a big connection to your side of the world. Jenny Wheeler: We’ll make sure we put that link in. Thank you so much for your time. Carol Drinkwater: A pleasure. Real pleasure. If you enjoyed Carol, you might also love Nadia Marks’ Mediterranean stories Nadia Marks has turned her early childhood years in the Mediterranean into a fulltime career as a novelist, writing stories of facing heart break and finding new life and love in sunny climes – like Crete, Greece and Spain…  Listen to nadia marks Next Week on Binge Reading Jenny Wheeler: Next week on Binge Reading, award-winning mystery author Ann Parker and her Silver Rush Stories. Yes, that’s silver, not Gold Rush Set in 19th century Colorado. She’s got eight books in the series and the eighth one is called The Secret in the Wall. A joint venture with a boarding house operator leads to the discovery of secrets hidden in a wall, the remains of a body, and a sack full of gold. That’s next week on Binge Reading. And a reminder, if you enjoy the show, leave us a review so others will find us too. Word of mouth is the best way for people to discover a show where they find great books they will love to read.  That’s it for now. See you next time and happy reading.

This week on The Joys of Binge Reading, Strange Sally Diamond, the latest, dark and twisted thriller from award-winning Irish novelist, Liz Nugent. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler, and on Binge Reading today, Liz talks about her gripping new psychological bestseller, always laced with black humor, and explains how Sally is pretty like herself; “Liz, without a filter.” She tells us what she’s learned from TV shows like Breaking Bad and how she came to set part of her story in New Zealand. We’ve got our usual book give away, Historic Fiction with Strong Female Leads this week, including one of my books. Sadie’s Vow book one in my latest Home At Last series. Sadie makes a death bed promise to her mother to protect her younger sister, but when an infatuated Phoebe debunks with a mob boss, Sadie has her work cut out. GET FREE HISTORICALS https://books.bookfunnel.com/strongfemaleleadsmay2023/tugfi9kl88 And don’t forget, if you enjoy this show, leave us a review wherever you listen to the podcast, so others will find us too. It really does help spread the word. Links mentioned in the show Unravelling Oliver: https://www.liznugent.com/unravelling-oliver The Girl On A Train: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/22557272-the-girl-on-the-train Gone Girl: https://www.amazon.com/Gone-Girl-Gillian-Flynn/dp/0307588378 Craig Sisterson: https://thespinoff.co.nz/authors/craig-sisterson Ngaio Marsh Awards: https://newzealandbooks.com/product-category/awards/ngaio-marsh-awards/ Otago University Centre for Celtic Studies: https://www.otago.ac.nz/ciss/index.html Professor Liam Mcilvanney: https://www.otago.ac.nz/ciss/people/otago716926.html [email protected] Our Little Cruelties: https://www.liznugent.com/little-cruelties Skin Deep: https://www.liznugent.com/skin-deep Lying In Wait: https://www.liznugent.com/lying-in-wait Sarah Hilary, Black Thorn; https://sarahhilary.com/ Vanda Simon: https://www.vandasymon.com/ Paul Cleave: https://www.paulcleave.com/ Fiona Sussman: https://www.fionasussman.co.nz/ Dame Fiona Kidman: https://fionakidman.com/ The Secret History by Donna Tartt: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29044.The_Secret_History The Book of Evidence by John Banville (Booker Prize winner): https://www.amazon.com/Book-Evidence-John-Banville/dp/0375725237 Light A Penny Candle – Maeve Binchy: https://www.amazon.com/Light-Penny-Candle-Famous-Firsts/dp/045121143X Where to find Liz online Website: https://www.liznugent.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/liz.nugent.399 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/liznugentwriter/ Twitter: https://twitter.com/lizzienugent But now, here’s the show. Introducing thriller writer Liz Nugent Award winning best selling thriller author Liz Nugent Hello there, Liz and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Jenny Wheeler: But now here’s Liz. Hello there, Liz, and welcome to the show. It’s great to have you with us. Liz Nugent: Hi Jenny. Thank you very much. It’s nice to be virtually in New Zealand. I wish I was there for real. Jenny Wheeler: I think that you have visited here, haven’t you, but we’ll talk about that a bit a little bit later. You’ve had a brilliant career as a novelist. You’re onto book five, we’re going to be talking about today, but right from the very start, you’ve had bestsellers and lots of very positive attention. You’ve won numerous Irish book awards We should mention if people don’t realize it from your accent that you are talking from Ireland. How did you manage to hit the ground running like that? Liz Nugent: I don’t know. I think, I think my first novel Unraveling Oliver, it came. It came at it. It’s a domestic noir story in the same way that Girl On A Train and Gone Girl were those sort of domestic stories. They weren’t like police detective thrillers, they’re about things that happen within families or within broken families or centered around the home and the domestic situation. The rise of the ‘domestic thriller’ genre Unravelling Oliver – Liz’s debut novel made the top of the best seller list I think Unravelling Oliver rode in on the coattails of those books. They all came out around the same time, so I think certainly in Ireland I went almost straight to number one. The book came out, it was a debut, it didn’t go straight to number one. I think it languished around nine or 10, but I was so thrilled to be in the top 10, and then suddenly it went to Number One and it stayed there for weeks and weeks. 13 weeks or something at Number One. I was so shocked. And then it went on to win a Crime Novel of the Year Award, which was a further shock because I didn’t know I’d written a crime novel. Jenny Wheeler: Actually, that is the domestic thriller genre, which has come into huge popularity in the last few years. And do you have any feeling for why that might be, why it resonates with readers at this time? Liz Nugent: I think possibly it might have something to do being the time that Me Too was becoming such an issue. Women were beginning to speak out about the abuses in the workplace and domestic abuse, and so possibly that might be a, a reason why it caught fire the way it did. And why people are looking at these stories that women are writing about domestic terrorism as opposed to international espionage, which is kind of the preferred domain of men. And we were talking about, hang on a second, you could be terrorized in your own home as well as by somebody else’s army or somebody else’s renegades. Terrorism can happen in the kitchen as well as it can happen on the battlefield. An unforgettable opening read aloud Jenny Wheeler: All of your books all have intensely brilliant twists and your newest and the one we’re talking about today, strange, Sally Diamond is no exception. The opening is really mind boggling when you read that first paragraph. And because it is so striking, I wondered if you’d just mind reading that first paragraph to us. Liz Nugent: I should have had this open before we started, but here we go. “Put me out with the bins. He said regularly when I die, put me out with the bins. I’ll be dead. So I won’t know any different. You’ll be crying your eyes out. And he would laugh, and I’d laugh too, because we both knew that I wouldn’t be crying my eyes out. I never cry.” Jenny Wheeler: In those few lines, you’ve already told us that Sally is different from other people, Liz Nugent: Mm-hm It establishes the fact that there is something not typical about Sally’s behavior. She’s somebody who doesn’t cry and is quite confident about the fact that she doesn’t cry. The question asked in that first paragraph is, is she not crying because she doesn’t love her father? Or is she not crying? You know what, why? “It just sounds off because she, they’re laughing together, and yet she’s not going to cry when he dies. There’s something strange about Sally.” What Liz Nugent learned from TV Jenny Wheeler: That’s absolutely right. And all of your books that I’ve seen anyway, have exactly that same shock opening. You’ve said that you learnt this from TV shows like Breaking Bad. Tell us a bit about that. Liz Nugent: Well, I loved Breaking Bad and The Sopranos and all of those shows like Ozark, about very flawed and damaged people. I think they’re far more interesting than the Waltons or Little House in the Prairie, which are all about like lovely families who are all very nice. I just find flawed and damaged characters – in fiction I hasten to add – my husband is a very nice man, but I find those flawed characters very interesting. In most of the other books now, I’m not talking about Sally Diamond, but most of the other books, they’re told from the point of view of a sociopath or a psychopath. This is the first time I’ve departed a bit from that and written from the point of view of somebody who’s actually very good and straightforward, almost too straightforward because of her difference. I really enjoyed writing her. It was quite a relief because I had always lent towards writing these monstrous characters before. But writing Sally was a great relief to me. I really loved her by the end of it. Getting inside the heads of monsters Jenny Wheeler: How do you get inside the heads of these monsters? Liz Nugent: Well, alarmingly easily. I did some acting training. I trained as an actress many, many years ago, and I think that really helped me to get inside the mind of a character. So when it’s a character that I’m writing myself, I think like they do, and so the the kind of sociopathic characters that I’m dealing with, it’s not like they wake up in the morning thinking ‘Whose life am I gonna screw up today?’ It’s always that they have some rationale behind it. “She shouldn’t have provoked me” or “he brought it on himself.” Or “if he hadn’t done that, I wouldn’t have had to do that.” There’s always some rationale behind the way that they’re thinking, so that they have a kind of a superiority complex and, and they have a logic behind their actions. Even though it’s really a skew, there is a logic to what they do, and a lot of it stems from background trauma. And that is also the case with Sally, but because she doesn’t remember any of it. all of this happened, all of the trauma that happened to Sally happened before she was seven years old and for various reasons, which are revealed in the book, she doesn’t remember any of it. She has no idea when we meet her, around the age of 42, I think she has no idea what her background really is. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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100%;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] [data-style="minimal"]{padding:40px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"]{margin-left:-5px;margin-right:-5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 5px 15px 5px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-field{-webkit-flex:100 1 auto;-ms-flex:100 1 auto;flex:100 1 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"][min-width~="600"] .formkit-fields[data-stacked="false"] .formkit-submit{-webkit-flex:1 1 auto;-ms-flex:1 1 auto;flex:1 1 auto;} Sally is Liz Nugent’s first ‘non-monster’ lead character Where she really came from. She has always known that she was adopted, but she hasn’t been curious about her birth parents because she’s very accepting of what’s in front of her. Her mother who, died when she was a teenager, as far as she knows, and her father, who is her adoptive parent -I’m talking about her father, who is a psychiatrist, – but turns out very early on in the book to have been her mother’s psychiatrist, which leads us down a very dark path. Jenny Wheeler: You also manage, however, even with some of these dark characters to create sympathy and understanding for them. And I’m thinking in Sally about Peter who, in the end, he follows an inevitable path into the dark side, which. we fully understand because we’ve seen all the way through the book the things that are happening to him. But in the end, when he makes that final self-justifying call, we’re still shocked by it. I thought that was a wonderful, delicate way that you allowed him to continue to develop, but end up really very like his own father. Liz Nugent: Yes. I didn’t know that that’s what I was going do with him until I got to the end, and then I just thought, okay. If this was the scenario – I can’t really say too much without spoiling it – but if this is the scenario, Peter and Sally are the main characters in the book, Sally’s story is told in the present tense, in present day at least. And Peter’s story is told from his childhood up to the present day. Inevitable – the good and the bad collide And somewhere along the line you realize that these timelines are going to collide at some stage. And I wasn’t sure how things would play out when they did collide, when they did finally meet as adults. When I got there, I really rattled my brain and thought, okay, would they find commonality? Would they get on? And I realized that it wouldn’t really be possible given their extremely different backgrounds and extremely different experiences despite their relationship. I can’t say any more than that because it spoils it, but they’ve had very different experiences and I just didn’t see any other way of it ending for him. Jenny Wheeler: Mm. Liz Nugent: I didn’t see that he could find redemption in any other way. So yeah, he goes off down a bad road. Jenny Wheeler: A good part of Strange Sally does take part in New Zealand because the villain of the piece debunks to New Zealand when he fears that he’s going to be caught. And so quite a bit of the book is located in a tourist town in New Zealand called Rotorua, which is famous for its mud hot pools. I see on your website that you have conducted workshops in New Zealand. I wondered if you’d been to Rotorua during that trip or whether you used the web to find out all the details about it. Liz Nugent’s foray Down Under Liz Nugent: No, no. I was invited to the University of Otago in Dunedin, where there’s a Centre for Celtic studies, Scottish and Irish studies run by a Scottish crime writer called Liam McElvane. He held a festival called Celtic Noir in the. autumn, your spring of 2019. I spent three or four weeks driving from the top of the North Island down to the bottom of the South Island because I thought if I’m going all the way to New Zealand. First of all, I want to see it. And second of all, why not organize a mini book tour? So I enlisted the help of my good Kiwi friend, Craig Sisterson. I’m sure you know him, and Craig set up a tour for me and one of the stops on the tour was Rotorua and I was really taken with the place and plus it has an excellent bookshop, McLeod’s bookshop. I think I’ve mentioned McLeod’s in the book. I think it does get a mention and Whitcoull’s (another NZ book store) gets mentioned too. I always try to mention bookshops and libraries, real bookshops and real libraries in books that I write, because bookshops and libraries are so important to me and to every writer and reader. It suited me because I had to do a little bit of research on not just about the hot pools, which are important to the story, but also about property prices. If somebody was to run away and try to set up a new life in New Zealand in 1980, where would be the cheapest place to buy property? And from my research, I found out that it would be Rotorua. Craig Sisterson and the Ngaio Marsh Awards Craig Sisterson – a champion of Australian and New Zealand crime writing Jenny Wheeler: Oh, fantastic. That answers another question actually, because one of your characters has got the surname, Sisterson. And of course I do know Craig. He’s well known in New Zealand because he set up the National Mystery Writer awards called the Ngaio Marsh Awards, and so I thought, oh, ‘she’s having a little joke here.’ Liz Nugent: Yes. there’s a few names that are dropped in here and there, but that was a little homage to Craig because he was so brilliant organizing that tour for me. He designed posters and put me in touch with libraries and bookstores and readers and other Kiwi writers. That was great. I was interviewed by, by New Zealand writers when I did those events. It was really nice, really good. Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely and I do get a feeling just from that you might also enjoy black humor. We won’t explain why, but there’s a teddy bear that features in the story and right at the very end, there is a very nice touch with the teddy bear that left me smiling and thinking you really do seem to have quite a sense of underlying black humor. Would that be right? Maintaining humour in the drakness Liz Nugent: There’s a lot of very dark because the story is so dark. There’s one aspect of the story that is very dark. Sally, who dominates the story, people laugh at her and she is not comfortable with that. Who would be? But she also has a really good sense of humor herself, and she voices the kind of things… She’s like me without a filter. She says things that you shouldn’t say to people. She gets herself into really awkward situations a lot. I like to play with that. There’s one scene when like the really monstrous character goes to London and it’s at the height of the IRA campaign and when somebody hears his Irish accent, they accuse him of being an IRA member and he’s absolutely, Astounded and shocked and horrified that somebody should call him or should think that he was a terrorist, when in fact he is a worse terrorist on the domestic front than any IRA bomber ever was. Like, he is such a monster. I had a lot of fun with putting some humor in among the darkness because you can’t write something relentlessly grim. You have to even it out, balance it out with some humor. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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[data-style="minimal"]{padding:20px;width:100%;position:relative;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-header{margin:0 0 27px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-subheader{margin:18px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee{font-size:13px;margin:10px 0 15px 0;text-align:center;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-guarantee > p{margin:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-powered-by-convertkit-container{margin-bottom:0;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-fields{display:-webkit-box;display:-webkit-flex;display:-ms-flexbox;display:flex;-webkit-flex-wrap:wrap;-ms-flex-wrap:wrap;flex-wrap:wrap;margin:25px auto 0 auto;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field{min-width:220px;}.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-field,.formkit-form[data-uid="d471e51619"] .formkit-submit{margin:0 0 15px 0;-webkit-flex:1 0 100%;-ms-flex:1 0 100%;flex:1 0 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I had fun with some of the characters, because some of the characters themselves were quite funny. And I think with Sally as well, because she sees everything in black and white. She accepts everything that is told to her and she accepts everything that’s presented to her. She doesn’t really question things so she doesn’t see things like social class or racial markers, she doesn’t see why there should be a difference between black people and white people. And of course she’s right, but it was really interesting to play with that, for somebody who actually doesn’t see any difference. It’s just not there for her. She just thinks humans are humans, which is true and it’s what we should all think, but unfortunately, racism does rear its head, and racism, especially in a small white Irish town. Sally is the only person who’s really able to tackle it head on. Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Talking about that kind of underlying humor, the scenes where Peter is taking care of someone in New Zealand and you get his inner dialogue where he’s justifying all the things that he is doing for this person. Without giving anything away, you can’t help smiling about the way that he’s framed it all in such positive terms when it’s really a very dark thing that’s happening. Three brothers at a funeral… one of them in the coffin Liz Nugent: I know exactly what you mean. There’s a lot of that kind of humor. He honestly believes it though. He thinks because he’s not his father, he’s determined that he’s a very different type of man to his father. Once he’s realized for his father, but it’s taken him way too long to discover the truth about his father. He should have known all along, but because he’s been so isolated and, cut off from society, he actually doesn’t know until. It’s really way too late to save a certain. Jenny Wheeler: The book before this one. Our Little Cruelties, which I think. The New York Times described as one of the Best Thrillers of 2020, it’s also got a page turning tagline. It’s starts with three brothers are at a funeral. One of them lies in the coffin and we know right from the start that there’s been a murder as well. It takes us until pretty well the end of the book to discover who the one is in the coffin and how he got there. How do you come up with these amazing situations? Liz Nugent: I generally just start with the first line. I mean that line, “There were three brothers at the Drumm funeral. One of us was in a coffin.” That just came to me and I didn’t know who was dead or who had killed him until I got to that final point in the book. I took little snapshots of their lives to show their relationships. Character-driven plotting keeps surprising I wanted to build up a rivalry between these three brothers, up to a point where each of them would have a good reason to kill one or both of the others so that it was as unpredictable as possible as to who was actually going to be dead and as unpredictable as possible as to who had killed him. I like to surprise myself. In Strange Sally Diamond, I don’t think there’s much that’s guessable about the book.. There’s a few things where I try and throw the reader off course. There’s a new neighbor who arrives into the village who takes an unhealthy interest in Sally. And you might think it’s one character and it turns out to be a different kind of a character altogether. I play with expectations every time I see something that, where the next step is obvious, I try to find a way for that not to be the next step taken. I try to put obstacles in the way of that happening so that the character has to go and do something else. Jenny Wheeler: I guess that truly is character driven plotting, isn’t it? Liz Nugent: Yes. It’s the first line which determines what kind of character we’re dealing with. Like that opening paragraph tells you that Sally is atypical. And in the one about the brothers, we know that this is not a healthy brother’s relationship. The first line of Lying In Wait is my husband Did not mean to kill Annie Doyle but the lying tramp deserved it. The long process of getting books to screen Liz Nugent’s Lying in Wait – currently optioned for screen Like all of the books have some setup that, that raises questions and I mightn’t answer those questions until the very end of the book, or I might answer them halfway through, but I then play out the consequences of the actions and the attitudes afterwards. Jenny Wheeler: I know that one of your books has been optioned for screen. I read that somewhere, but they all are really absolute ringers to be movies or TV series, but has anything much happened on that front? Liz Nugent: Oh, everything. It’s just one of those things, and I think it happens a lot to writers. Things get optioned all the time and. Leonardo DiCaprio’s, production company optioned, Unraveling Oliver, and renewed the option three or four years in a row and then dropped it. And so that’s up for grabs again and Lying In Wait is currently optioned by an Irish production company. Strange. Sally Diamond is being sent out around now by my agents in Los Angeles, c a a, uh, sent out to. All the streamers are having a look and been a lot of interest. They’ve all been optioned and then the options have dropped. I used to get my hopes up and I used to get really excited that something amazing was going to happen, especially when they were throwing names like Leonardo DiCaprio is going do it and Kate Blanchett is going to play Lydia. What Liz Nugent is reading right now All these names are being thrown about and you get very excited, but then nothing happens. Like really, nothing happens and every time the option gets renewed you get a, a chunk of money, which is nice. But at the same time, I’d rather they just made the damn thing because I’d like people to see it. I’d like to see it come to the screen. I’m not sure that I’d like to be involved in, in, in the writing of it. That’s another question, but at least please, somebody makes something of mine. They’re all there. Although all the books are there. Lying The Wait is the only one that is currently up. Oh, sorry, no. Skin Deep, too. Somebody has just put the option for Skin Deep as well, the third one. Skin Deep and Lying Wait have been optioned and the other three are available. Jenny Wheeler: That’s fabulous. We are starting to run out of time and we always do like to ask our authors about their reading habits. I did pick up that you in particular, admired one of your fellow Irish novelists, Maeve Binchy, and so I thought, could you tell us a bit about your reading tastes, what you’re reading at the moment, and your feelings about Maeve? Liz Nugent: Well, funny enough, I read a lot of Maeve Binchy when I was a teenager. But I think the connection is that she went to the same school as I did, and I feel she left some of her DNA on her desk. I picked it up. I was able to run with it I’m only the second writer that that school has produced. It’s a small enough school, I guess, but I like to think that there’s some connection there. I loved her, her stories of Irish life and the small village scenarios and young women immigrating in the 1950s, which of course happened again the 1980s, when I was a, a teenager, a late teenager. I ended up going to London and having the kind of adventures that she wrote about. So yes, a first fondness for Maeve Binchy and the person who takes over. I’m sorry, I’ve gone blank. Maeve Binchy and Marian Keyes Jenny Wheeler: You mean who’s followed in her footsteps? Liz Nugent: Yes. The writer who would’ve followed in Maeve Binchy’s footsteps is Marian Keys, who is hugely popular and has hold sold like 40 million books all over the world, and is translated into, you know, 50 languages. And Marian happens to be a neighbor and a very good friend. I’m very lucky to have that friendship and, much as I love Maeve, I never actually met her, which I’m really sad about. Any radio interviews I heard of her, she was just such a force of nature and so generous to other writers like me. The other writers who knew her all talk about how generous she was to them and how she really set the tone for Irish writers to be generous to each other and to support each other as much as possible. And I think we all try to do that. Jenny Wheeler: And as for what you’re reading at the moment? Liz Nugent: What am I reading at the moment? I’m reading a book by Sarah Hilary, uh, an English writer. I can’t think of the name of it off the top of my head, but it’s a proof. I, I’m reading wall to wall proofs. I got sent about oh seven or eight proofs every week. And you know, I try to, I try to read as many as I can. Um, I’ve read, um, Vanda Simon’s new book and I’ve read Paul Cleave’s new book and I’ve read Fiona Sussman’s new book. Never Miss out! Never miss out on the hottest new authors, regular FREE BOOK OFFERS and Most Popular podcasts. Yes please to FREE BOOKS and updates on popular books We won’t send you spam. 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They were all excellent, really excellent. I’m trying to think who else I have read from your end of the planet. Oh, Dame Fiona Kidman, who I met and adored when I met her in in Dunedin. She’s fantastic and she’s such a trailblazer and such a nice lady, and so funny and entertaining. You know, for a lady of her age, she’s fantastic. Another force of nature. I loved her. Jenny Wheeler: Lovely, Liz. Thank you. I imagine that having Maeve Binchy in just in your world perhaps helped you to realize that it was possible for a girl from your school to become an international writer. Maybe it was an aspirational thing that was set there for you. Liz Nugent: Funnily enough, I didn’t know that she went to my school until I was about, I’d say, 15 years ago. I had no idea, because I think, Light A Penny Candle, her first book was published maybe in 1985, which is the year I left school or maybe the year before. But I don’t remember any mention of her when I was in school. Maybe the school thought that her writing was too low brow for them. Because for Maeve, like Marion Keyes too, and like Australian writer, Monica McInerney, they have to battle to win respect because they’re writing books that are “written for women.” And because of that, men tend to put them down or dismiss them as, candy floss fiction, where in fact they’re telling very real stories about very real lives and very real women with very real issues. How Liz Nugent discovered popular fiction It’s possible that Maeve Binchy was not respected at the time. She certainly was towards the end of her life, but she was passed over.  I don’t think, I don’t recall her ever win winning any major literary awards in Ireland. Certainly not in the first years of her publishing. Maybe later, Jenny Wheeler: Yes, genre fiction is coming into its own a little bit more in recent years, maybe because of streaming TV. The storytelling has slightly changed, but for many years, genre fiction was very much regarded as second rate, wasn’t it? Liz Nugent: It was, but I think it’s really now, if you have a romance writer who writes really well, or you’re a crime writer who writes really well, or a science fiction writer who writes really well? You can get literary and crime in the same book. You can get literary and romance in the same book. Literary fiction on its own can be quite dry and arid regarding plot, often it’s male naval gazing, if Jenny Wheeler: Yes. Yes Liz Nugent: I’ve read a lot of literary fiction. In fact, to my shame, I didn’t read a lot of crime before I wrote my first book, so it was only when it was shortlisted for that crime award that I read all of the other.nominees. And realized, holy crap, I have missed out on so much tremendously good writing, because I’ve dismissed this genre because the books that were coming to my attention, the books that won the prizes were all books written by middle-aged white men, and they were the only ones I heard about. Discovering literary crime novels The Secret History by Donna Tartt – part of Liz Nugent’s discovery’ of crime fiction I naturally gravitated towards them, and then I discover, oh my God, I’ve missed out on these brilliant writers and, and then when I look back at the books that I did read, you know, like the Secret History by Donna Tartt. I think to myself, that’s actually a crime novel or the Book of Evidence by John Banville who won the Booker Prize. And I’m thinking that’s actually a crime novel. They’re literary crime novels, but they’re crime novels nonetheless. That fascinates me. Jenny Wheeler: What is next for Liz, the author in the next 12 months? What do you have on your desk? Liz Nugent: I have the first line of my next book. I haven’t got a second line yet. I have worked, I have worked at it, in my head, I have worked out probably the first 20,000 words. I know the scenario. I know who the character is., I don’t know what’s going to happen after that, but it’ll become apparent when I begin to write it, and so I will be writing certainly the first 20,000 words over the next couple of months. I’m doing a lot of traveling, an awful lot of traveling. I’m going to a festival in the Hamptons in Long Island, in in America. In two weeks time, I am going to a lot of festivals in the UK and Ireland. I’m not getting to the Southern Hemisphere this year, but Iceland is on the cards. There’s lots of crime festivals, all. Over, you know, all over the world. I was in Poland and Germany and all over. I’ve traveled a lot, but, I hope to get back to New Zealand sometime. Where you can find Liz Nugent online Jenny Wheeler: That’s lovely. And do you enjoy interacting with your readers, and where can they find you online? Liz Nugent: Oh, I’m on Twitter at Lizzy NuGen Eli, IE. Nugent at Lizzy Nugent. Um, on Facebook, Liz Nugent. Um, I have my blue tick on Twitter. I think that might be taken away and I’m certainly not paying. Elon Musk. S I have it for now, but that might disappear. I’m on Instagram, but I’m useless on Instagram. I’m not quite sure how to use it, but I’m at Liz Nugent, writer on Instagram, and yeah, I don’t do TikTok. I’m just too old to learn another thing. I think Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram are as much as I can do. But, you know, I hope that book Talk TikTok finds me, because apparently they’re, they’re very, very influential. So it’d be great if they could find me because I happen to hope of finding them Old head new tricks, Jenny Wheeler: Look. That’s wonderful. Liz. Look, thank you so much for your time, and just before we go, all of those. Uh, links that you’ve mentioned will be in the show notes for this episode on our website that joys have binge reading.com, so you’ll be able to follow them up there. But thanks so much, Liz. It’s been wonderful talking. Liz Nugent: Thank you. Thank you so much. If you enjoyed Liz Nugent you might also enjoy… Scottish thriller writer Douglas Skelton and his Rebecca Connolly series… Douglas Skeleton is one of Scotland’s most celebrated crime writers with dark stories that meld history and contemporary life stretching from the tough streets of his hometown of Glasgow to the wildness of the Scottish Highlands. We’re talking Where Demons Hide, Douglas’s latest thriller with a supernatural edge, featuring crime reporter, Rebecca Connolly. Hi there. I’m your host, Jenny Wheeler. And in today’s Binge Reading, Rebecca’s skepticism is challenged after a body is found on a lonely moor in the center of a pentagram.  A woman has been frightened to death. But was she killed by supernatural means or is there a more down to earth explanation? LISTEN TO DOUGLAS Next time on Binge Reading – Carol Drinkwater Next time Carol Drinkwater, the beloved actress of the All Creatures Great And Small TV show. Now a very well selling novelist and nonfiction writer, and her latest book, An Act Of Love, a sweeping and evocative World War II love story set in the French Alps, Forced to flee war ravaged, Poland, 17 year old Sierra and her parents find refuge in a dilapidated house high in the French helps. But soon the Nazis close in, casting a long shadow that will force them to make some hard choices. That’s next time, An Act Of Love, from Carol Drinkwater. That’s it for today. Just a reminder before I go, if you enjoy the show, please leave us a review or a comment somewhere so others will find us too. Happy reading and see you next time.