The Karen & Ellen Letters

In Retrospective 3, Josh discusses how 24 harrowing hours changed his life and the course of True Crime Bullsh**. He discusses how an incident re-shaped his vision for the first episode of the podcast, and his view on true crime and its darkness. Plus, the impact of that first episode on listeners, and the impact of those listeners on Josh.10th Anniversary Retreathttps://www.bothand.fyi/event-details-registration/ten-year-anniversary-celebrationTROVA TRIP to Galápagos Islandshttps://trovatrip.com/trip/south-america/ecuador/ecuador-with-josh-hallmark-jan-2027TROVA TRIP to Costa Ricahttps://trovatrip.com/trip/central-america/costa-rica/costa-rica-with-josh-hallmark-nov-2026SPONSORS• Boll & Branch: BollAndBranch.com/truecrimebs for 20% off.  • Quince: Quince.com/TCBS for free shipping and 356-day returns with code TCBS.

Retrospective 2 takes us to the origin of the investigation; where Josh's interest in storytelling evolved into his obsession of needing to know everything. And it started in a surprising place: a bound book of correspondence between two teenage girls and their landlord. What started as comedic found writing, became a mystery that people could not let go. And as Josh made his way through it, while working on TCB, he learned about investigations and their repercussions.This is parts one and two of The Karen & Ellen Letters, Josh's first full-fledged investigation.10th Anniversary Retreathttps://www.bothand.fyi/event-details-registration/ten-year-anniversary-celebrationTROVA TRIP to Galápagos Islandshttps://trovatrip.com/trip/south-america/ecuador/ecuador-with-josh-hallmark-jan-2027TROVA TRIP to Costa Ricahttps://trovatrip.com/trip/central-america/costa-rica/costa-rica-with-josh-hallmark-nov-2026Cast:Sara Stapleton as KarenSara Kitcher as EllenJeff Powell as MarkMatt Peelen as RobSPONSORS• Boll & Branch: BollAndBranch.com/truecrimebs for 20% off.  • Quince: Quince.com/TCBS for free shipping and 356-day returns with code TCBS.  • Schedule35: Schedule35.co with promo code TCBS for 15% off your first order.

To celebrate 10 years in podcasting, we're spending the summer going back in time and both highlighting key episodes and telling the stories behind them; you’ll get new behind-the-scenes information about what was happening in life, in various investigations, and in the world that impacted these important episodes and their podcasts. You’ll learn how Josh started podcasting, how he started investigating Israel Keyes, some hilarious and terrifying stories from the road, and some really vulnerable and personal stories.We start our first retrospective at, duh, the beginning. Josh shares how both his podcasting journey and Keyes obsession began. He discusses his time in Seattle and on the Olympic Peninsula, how he ended up on the East Coast, his first deep-dive investigation (not Keyes) and how that led to his second (Keyes).And this kicks off an early episode of his very first show, Our Americana, entitled Van Life. TROVA TRIP to The Galapagos Islands:https://trovatrip.com/trip/south-america/ecuador/ecuador-with-josh-hallmark-jan-2027

Truth is a tricky thing. Three girls lived in a cottage once. They are both everywhere and nowhere in these versions of the Truth.Starring:Lori Snyder as DotAdrienne Hardison as HelenaMatt Peelen as RobSara Stapleton as Herself/KarenSara Kitcher as EllenJeff Powell as MarkJosh Hallmark as HimselfMegan Chaney Walker as Josh Hallmark as Mark as Ellen as A girl who lived in a cottage onceMusic by:Podington BearTwin SisterMaria TaylorRoseanne CashChris Zabriskie

The results are in. Mark moves on. Crochet Pants looks back. A life is celebrated. A birthday is celebrated. Aloha Karen watches the sunrise. Starring:Lori Snyder as DotAdrienne Hardison as HelenaMatt Peelen as Aloha RobSara Stapleton as Herself/Karen Crochet Pants/Aloha KarenJeff Powell as MarkRyan Connelly as ChristopherMatt Valletta as DarrenChris Braaten as ReporterJosh Hallmark as HimselfMusic by:Podington BearBeach Party Hula IslandSara StapletonEvgeny GrinkoRadical Face

The results are in. Mark moves on. Crochet Pants looks back. A life is celebrated. A birthday is celebrated. Aloha Karen watches the sunrise. Starring:Lori Snyder as DotAdrienne Hardison as HelenaMatt Peelen as Aloha RobSara Stapleton as Herself/Karen Crochet Pants/Aloha KarenJeff Powell as MarkRyan Connelly as ChristopherMatt Valletta as DarrenChris Braaten as ReporterJosh Hallmark as HimselfMusic by:Podington BearBeach Party Hula IslandSara StapletonEvgeny GrinkoRadical Face

We touch base with David. Dot & Helena look at "pics." Patty tells a friend about her wedding. Josh finds something at the bottom of a rabbit hole. Starring:Chris Braaten as Rod DowneyChris Green as DavidLori Snyder as DotAdrienne Hardison as HelenaHolly Hall as PatriciaSara Beth Poole as EllenSara Stapleton as Herself/KarenJosh Hallmark as HimselfMusic by:Podington BearMeleSamuel CorwinThe Do

Helena gets upset with the news. Ellen has her eye on a cat painting. Josh can't believe his eyes. Darren spills the beans. Thanksgiving is celebrated on opposite ends of the country.Starring:Adrienne Hardison as HelenaJosh Hallmark as HimselfSara Beth Poole as EllenSara Stapleton as Herself/KarenMatt Valletta as DarrenHolly Hall as PatriciaMusic by:Podington BearTitus 12Gary & JohnChris ZabriskieSamuel CorwinLia Ices

Dot tells Helena about her daughter's wedding. Josh and Sara try to sort out several possible Karens. Email Karen returns. Crochet Pants enters the fold. And Ellen catches another mouse. Starring: Lori Snyder as DotAdrienne Hardison as HelenaSara Stapleton as Karen/HerselfJosh Hallmark as HimselfDenise Page as RosieSara Beth Poole as EllenMusic by:Podington BearMuddy WatersAurelie

Helena fondly remembers Dot's daughter and her friend. The girls return from vacation. Ellen continues to struggle with geography. Josh reaches out to an old friend. Starring:• Sara Stapleton as Herself/Karen • Chris Green as Email Man • Adrienne Hardison as Helena • Jeff Powell as Mark • Sara Beth Kitcher as Ellen • Matt Peelen as Rob • Josh Hallmark as HimselfMusic by:• Podington Bear • Herman & Ian • YEYEY • Part Time

There's something oddly familiar, but strangely foreign about this. But what does it all mean, Leslie? Leslie? Starring: • Chris Green as David • Josh Hallmark as Himself• Lori Anyder as Dot • Deana Marie as Karen • Cory Saceaux as Rob • Steven Pappas as Mark • Donna Hume as Ellen • Sara Stapleton as Herself • Holly Hall as Patricia Music by:• Podington Bear • Grandma Pat • Ivy

Helena reconnects with an old friend. Someone is having a really bad day. Ellen wants free firewood. Ants! Ellen leaves something behind. Josh finds something alarming. Where's Leslie? Starring: • Adrienne Hardison as Helena • Cindy Hall as ??????? • Jeff Powell as Mark • Sara Stapleton as Karen/Herself • Sara Beth Poole as Ellen • Alyse Braaten as Leslie • Chris Green as David • Josh Hallmark as Himself Music by:• Podington Bear • Grandma Pat • Julie Maxwell's Piano Music

Dot loses her dog. Mark gets scolded. Karen spies on her neighbors. Someone is up to something. Josh tries to reconcile timelines. Ellen catches a mouse. Starring: • Lori Snyder as Dot • Nina Innsted as Bonnie • Jeff Powell as Mark • Sara Stapleton as Karen/Herself • Sara Beth Poole as Ellen • Alyse Braaten as Leslie • Chris Green as David • Josh Hallmark as Himself Music by:• Podington Bear • Marti • Broke For Free

Catch up on all things Studio BOTH/AND for the month of February (and beyond).This month's news:• New tours and events • Unsafe Spaces update • The Karen & Ellen Letters update • True Crime Bullsh** update • New projects • Our Americana update • Studio BOTH/AND Launch Party follow-up in The Berkshires this October • What's happening on Patreon this month Links: • True Crime Podcast Festival, use promo code JOSH for 15% off • Studio BOTH/AND Patreon

What (and when) is Ellen doing with all these mice?What are Mark and Bonnie up to?What did Josh and Sara find?Who's baking ham from the internet?The Big D????Season 2 will take you out of California, across multiple timelines, to new voices and witnesses, and answer most of your old questions plus some new ones.The answers start pouring in on February 6.

The season finale.Season 2 begins on January 29.The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondenceNarrated and produced by: Josh HallmarkStarring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, Matt Peelen, Chris Green, Vicki Russell, Megan Chaney-Walker, Eric Schmidt, Paul Csomo, and Zoe Marshall-RashidThis is a Studio BOTH/AND production: bothand.fyiFor an ad-free experience: patreon.com/studiobothandMusic by:Lee RosevereChris ZabriskieRoie ShpiglerGalactic RealmsIcarusDigital BattlefieldTideDroid BishopNight CrawlersRetro ChillwaveEverythingFeatured music: Maria TaylorPatreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler

In 1989: Ellen has concerns, Karen & Rob are at their wit's end, and Mark mourns a loss.In 2012: Things get meta.The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondenceNarrated and produced by: Josh HallmarkStarring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Matt PeelenThis is a Studio BOTH/AND production: bothand.fyiFor an ad-free experience: patreon.com/studiobothandMusic by:Lee RosevereNightcrawlersFifteenRetro ChillwaveTopaz WhiteEverythingPatreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler

Unsafe Spaces is an investigative, serialized true crime podcast that explores the crimes that take place in the places we’re supposed to feel safest. In Season One: Tampa’s Missing Men, I explore how two different missing persons cases, reported on the same day, opened a Pandora’s Box of unreported assaults, cold missing persons cases, ignored rapes, and unsolved murders within Florida’s gay community; and the two men who could be responsible for all of them. Not to mention cold cases of missing gay and murdered men in Georgia, Illinois, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and beyond. Check out Unsafe Spaces: www.UnsafeSpacesPodcast.com

The train goes off the tracks.The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, Matt Peelen, and Chris BraatenThis is a Studio BOTH/AND production: truecrimebullshit.com / bothand.fyiFor an ad-free experience: patreon.com/studiobothandMusic by:IdokayLee RosevereEverythingDigital BattlegroundGalactic RealmsRoi ShpiglerFeatured music: Maria TaylorPatreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler

In 2012, the Josh struggles with the joy vs. the reality of the letters. In 1988, Karen honeymoons, Ellen prepares to move out, and Mark sends the girls what's left of their deposit. In 2017, people have questions about Ellen.The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence. Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark. Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Chris Braaten This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand Music by: Lee Rosevere Topaz White Fifteen Tide Junk City Rejects Icarus The APX Roi Shpigler Featured music: The Bird & The Bee Patreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler

WARNING: This contains general spoilers about the scope of the Karen & Ellen Letters story. We talk around how the investigation ends, without giving away exact or detailed information.Stephanie Sabin is a writer for WYDaily.com. More than that, she's a dear friend. And The Karen & Ellen Letters played a very significant role in both Stephanie's career and our friendship. Stephanie was a superfan of the podcast in its initial run; and now we're discussing it in depth, for the first time, since that initial investigation ended. We look at how the listening experience has changed, how society and culture have changed, and how these letters and their reality have changed us.This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyiFor an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand

In 2006, Josh begins to find evidence that three of the letter-writers actually exist.In 1988, the girls celebrate a milestone, Karen and Mark find themselves at an impasse, and Mark finds joy in an unlikely place.The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Kitcher, Jeff Powell, and Benjamin Watkins.This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyiFor an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothandMusic by:EverythingTopaz WhiteRetro ChillwaveDroid BishopChannel 13IcarusNeon LightsPatreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler

WARNING: This contains mild general spoilers about the scope of the Karen & Ellen Letters story. We talk around how the investigation ends, without giving away exact or detailed information. Charlie Worroll (Crimelines; Crimelines and Consequences) has history with The Karen & Ellen Letters going back to its days as a blog (c. 2012). Years later, we met through podcasting. In the inaugural Karen & Ellen Conversations, we discuss how the letters have changed and how we have changed over time, propriety in storytelling, ethics in found and historical documents, social blunders, being stupid teenagers, and how Karen & Ellen is so much more than just letters. Tidbits: Charlie embarrasses herself in a train car in Seattle. Why Josh stopped using video for the original After Shows. This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand

In 2005, Josh begins trying to authenticate the letters. In 1987, Karen and Ellen struggle with math and jurisdiction; Ellen is upset by a commercial; and Karen tells Mark about her boyfriend. Mark begins to lose his cool. The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence.Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark.Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Beth Kitcher, and Jeff Powell. This is a Studio BOTH/AND production: www.truecrimebullshit.com / www.bothand.fyi For an ad-free experience: www.patreon.com/studiobothand Music by: Everything Junk City Rejects Neon Coast Fifteen Neon Rider Patreon producers: Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler

In 2005, Josh is gifted a stack of strange letters. In 1987, Karen and Ellen move into their very first apartment and immediately begin terrorizing their landlord. And so we begin to unravel a decade-long mystery with a single question: Can these letters actually be real? The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondence. Narrated and produced by: Josh Hallmark. Starring: Sara Stapleton, Sara Beth Kitcher, and Jeff Powell. Music by: EverythingJunk City RejectsNeon CoastFifteenNeon Rider; andLee RosevereFeatured music by: Maria Taylor Patreon producers:Adrienne Aiello, Amelia Hancock, Amy Basil, Annette L, Benjamin Cioppa-Fong, Casey Jensen-Richardson, Dana Keith, Dr. Jill Cooper, Drew Vipond, Hallie Reed, Jessica Alihodzic, Jillian Natale, John O’Leary, Kendall C, Kimberly K, Lauren F, Lynnlie Tuschoff, Manolis Boulukos, Meggan Capps-Seawel, Mike Sherman, Nicole & Dennis Henry, Sarah King, SC, Shannon Foster, Shelly Brewer, Tuesdi Woodworth, Zack Ignatowicz Warren, Beth McNally, John Comrie, Jordan Taylor, Karli McNutt, Lana, Sara Cee, Lydia Fiedler

The Karen & Ellen Letters are found correspondance between two teenage girls and their landlord, over a three year period, from the 1980s. This podcast is the reading of those letters and a re-telling of the host's journey to authenticate them. The girls are demanding at best, the landlord is tired and impatient, the journey is the perfect blend of comedy, mystery, and cognitive dissonance. The Karen & Ellen Letters arrive on September 5 at www.karenandellen.com.