The Last Service Podcast

Episode Overview What do you do when your church's budget doesn't match its values? Pastor Kevin Boyd of Legacy Church in Plano, Texas faced exactly that tension. With 36–42% of the budget going to facility overhead and only 14–17% to mission and ministry, something had to change. Rather than slowly adjusting line items over a decade, Pastor Boyd made a bold move: swap buildings with a neighboring church. In this episode, he walks us through how that decision was made, how it was executed, and what Legacy Church looks like on the other side. In This Episode Pastor Boyd arrived at Legacy Church in 2013 and quickly noticed a misalignment between the church's mission-centered identity and where its money was actually going. The church had embraced a vision of making missionaries — not just attendees — but nearly 40% of the budget was consumed by a massive facility and its accompanying debt. After a season of prayerful discernment and strategic vision dinners with the congregation, he decided to pursue a dramatic realignment rather than a slow drift. He reached out cold to a neighboring pastor he respected — no setup, no lead-up — and simply said he wanted to buy their building and sell them his. Within an hour, that pastor and his elders were in Boyd's office praying together. Within two weeks, Church Realty's John Muzyka was at the table helping both churches navigate the financial and logistical complexities of what turned out to be a multi-million dollar transaction between two unequal properties. The deal wasn't without friction. There were tough conversations about appraisal gaps, unexpected repair requests, and the challenge of making sure both congregations heard a unified story — not two competing narratives. But both churches voted to affirm the agreement, each at above 97% approval, and the transition from last service in the old building to first service in the new one took just one week. The Numbers Before the transition, Legacy Church's budget looked like this: Facility & overhead: 36–42% Mission & ministry: 14–17% After the transition, the picture is dramatically different: Facility & overhead: ~20% (up slightly due to post-pandemic inflation) Mission & ministry: ~40% — achieved steadily, growing from 28% in year one to where it is today From the proceeds of the property transaction, Legacy Church: Gave 10% (approximately $350,000) directly to mission partners Paid off nearly $980,000 in mortgage debt Invested approximately $1.8 million in a ladder bond strategy, generating $60,000–$70,000 annually in interest income used for capital expenditures — keeping those costs off the ministry budget Mission Impact Since the Move 1,000 patients seen in medical clinics in Uganda in a single year 700+ pastors served at pastoral conferences annually 150 Bibles in native languages delivered to pastors who had only the four Gospels 200 thermometers donated to Ugandan churches, enabling them to reopen post-pandemic Active partnerships in Uganda, Spain, Mexico, Cambodia, and locally 82 people sent on short-term mission trips in 2025 — from a congregation of approximately 450 Support for a church plant (ICON Church) that serves an international, multi-language congregation — including secretly setting aside rent payments and returning them as a gift when the plant moved into their own space A local church plant that began 12 years ago now has five sites Key Takeaways #1 — The building is a tool, not a trophy. Pastor Boyd refused to view empty seats as failure. Instead, he asked a more strategic question: is this building the right tool for our mission? That reframe changed everything about how his church approached the decision. #2 — Wise leadership seeks counsel and negotiates with integrity. He didn't go it alone. Pastor Boyd sought outside perspective and was willing to have honest, direct conversations with another ministry — working toward an outcome that was fair and wise for everyone involved. #3 — Vision turns downsizing into a decision. Rather than framing the move as retreat or defeat, Pastor Boyd cast a clear vision: right-sizing their facility meant more resources freed up for actual mission work. He aligned the church's finances with its calling and identity — and made clear that their identity was never in the building to begin with. Notable Quote "We could have lived out the rest of our life until Jesus returns in that facility — but we wouldn't have had a budget that aligned with our values. Ours was a strategic move to be more aligned with who God called us to be." — Pastor Kevin Boyd Resources & Links Church Realty — churchrealty.com Share your story: [email protected]

As Season Two of The Last Service Podcast comes to a close, host Matt McGee sits down for a relaxed, wide-ranging “potluck conversation” with pastor, veteran, and discipleship leader James Floyd. This episode blends humor, hard-won wisdom, and deep theological reflection as they explore failure, identity, finishing well, church decline, and what it really means to follow Jesus beyond platforms and programs. James shares his journey from military service to ministry, his leap into faith-based entrepreneurship, and the formation of his men’s discipleship work and Substack Jesus for Breakfast. Together, Matt and James reflect on why failure is often where God does His most formative work, why churches struggle with endings, and how discipleship—not branding—remains the heart of a faithful church. This episode is especially meaningful for pastors, church leaders, and Christians navigating seasons of transition, decline, or uncertainty, offering hope rooted not in outcomes, but in intimacy with God. Key Topics Discussed Faith, failure, and identity beyond success Lessons from military leadership and ministry Why men often tie identity to work and results What it means to “finish well” as a Christian Church decline, consolidation, and discipleship models Letting go of control and trusting God with outcomes Why discipleship is slow, costly, and essential Faithfulness in ordinary life: work, family, and service

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt sits down with Rev. Nancy Dolan, a Presbyterian pastor with 20+ years of corporate HR/organizational development experience, to walk through the remarkable and deeply pastoral journey of helping Kirk of the Lakes—a once-thriving suburban congregation—discern its future with honesty, courage, and hope. Nancy tells the full story: from the church’s suburban boom in the 1960s, to its relationally rich glory days in the 70s and 80s, through decades of decline, and finally to its faithful and spiritually grounded decision to close. Through it all, she models how pastoral presence, deep listening, and a relentless attentiveness to God’s activity can shepherd a congregation through some of its most tender moments. Whether you’re a pastor, denominational leader, or lay elder navigating transition, this episode offers both practical guidance and spiritual encouragement. 3 Key Takeaways 1. The Relentless Pursuit of What God Is Doing Nancy approached a conflicted, anxious congregation with open hands, listening deeply and consistently asking, “What is God doing here?” This posture kept discipleship at the center of every decision the Church faced, communicating that God had not abandoned this congregation even in seasons of stagnation, loss, and confusion about purpose. 2. Pastoral Skills Matter Nancy did not enter with a plan. She entered with curiosity, presence, and relationship-building. She listened, visited homes, learned the stories, and gained trust. Instead of technical fixes, she grounded the church in prayer, Scripture, and emotional/spiritual health. Her leadership demonstrates that churches in transition need a shepherd more than a strategist. 3. Start Early Years before they closed, the congregation began a structured process of assessment and discernment. Because they started early, they were able to explore multiple possibilities, not just closure. So when closing ultimately became the faithful choice, it felt like a wisely discerned conclusion, not a failure or collapse. Episode Highlights The “glory days” of Kirk of the Lakes: rich relationships, young families, deep community life—not just programs. Why decline set in: pastoral turnover, unaddressed conflict, an outdated ministry model, and anxiety-driven decision-making. How Nancy built trust: listening without judgment, acknowledging fears, and committing to spiritual growth regardless of the outcome. The discernment process: case studies, asset mapping, prayer teams, and honest assessment of congregational energy. When the high school next door offered to buy the building: how this clarified mission and stewardship. Why the congregation chose closure despite having financial runway: they recognized they had resources but not the human energy to continue mission. Legacy work: how the congregation’s final gifts created mental health services, sensory rooms, clothing ministries, and ongoing community impact. Shepherding people into new church homes: “send-out Sundays” helped members join other congregations before the final service. The last service and legacy service: grief, gospel, memory, and resurrection hope intertwined. Why This Episode Matters This conversation offers pastors, sessions, and church leaders a real-life picture of how gospel hope can guide even the hardest congregational decisions. It re-centers the conversation around spiritual formation, relational leadership, and discerning God’s new work, rather than simply managing decline. If your church is navigating questions of vitality, mission, property, or legacy, this episode is a must-listen.

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee sits down with songwriter, producer, and author Andrew Osenga to explore what decades of touring, worship leading, and church observation have taught him about the American church’s changing landscape. Osenga reflects on thirty years of visiting more than a thousand congregations—from small rural Bible churches to sprawling suburban campuses—and what he’s learned about conflict, consumerism, and community. Together, he and Matt unpack how the forces shaping our sanctuaries mirror the forces shaping our cities. Key Takeaways 1. Conflict is necessary for health. Osenga reminds us that “conflict breeds intimacy.” Churches that avoid hard conversations often erode from within. Working through disagreement builds trust, while evading it leaves only the weary to close the doors. Healthy transitions require the courage to face tension with grace. 2. The Amazonification of churches is hollowing out communities. Like small-town main streets replaced by big-box stores, small and mid-sized churches are vanishing. The result: decaying sanctuaries and fewer places where people can be known and contribute meaningfully. Consumer-driven growth models have built impressive megachurches but failed to reach more people for Christ—fewer Americans attend worship now than 25 years ago. This is a challenge for denominations, networks, and even local governments to confront together. 3. We lack the vocabulary to talk about endings. Consumerism has narrowed the church’s language to victory and positivity, leaving little room for lament, loss, or transition. We have business terms for growth but few pastoral words for shepherding an ending. Recovering that vocabulary is essential if the Church is to model resurrection hope in seasons of closure and change. Why It Matters This conversation invites pastors, denominational leaders, and everyday church members to see endings not as failures, but as sacred transitions. If your congregation is wrestling with decline, conflict, or questions of sustainability, Osenga’s reflections offer language—and hope—for walking that road faithfully. Resources: "The Amazonification of the Local Church" on Andrew Osenga's Substack  http://www.andrewosenga.com/ Order Andrew Osenga's new book: How to Remember: Forgotten Pathways to an Authentic Faith "Expectations" by Andrew Osenga The Pivot with Andrew Osenga Hutchmoot Sticky Faith, Fuller Youth Institute Ryan Burge / Graphs About Religion AWANA Clubs

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt McGee welcomes back Dr. Will Willimon, former bishop in the United Methodist Church, professor at Duke Divinity School, and author of more than 70 books; for a candid conversation about his latest work, The Church We Carry: Loss, Leadership, and the Future of Our Church. Drawing from the story of his own home congregation in South Carolina, Dr. Willimon reflects on the complex factors that led to church disaffiliation, the cultural loss of Christianity’s “home court advantage,” and the urgent need for pastors and church leaders to reclaim truth-telling and healthy debate. Whether you’re a pastor, lay leader, or simply someone concerned about the trajectory of the church, this episode will challenge you to think more deeply about what it means to lead faithfully in an age of division and decline. What You’ll Learn in This Episode: Why United Methodist decline goes beyond debates about inclusivity The role of bishops, governance, and aging membership in shaping the schism Why conflict avoidance damages the church—and how to recover the art of holy argument How misinformation, gossip, and technology complicate communication in congregations What hope looks like for pastors and churches facing uncertain futures Key Takeaways: More Than Inclusivity – The United Methodist schism is more complex than debates about sexuality. Membership decline and governance failures set the stage long before disaffiliation. The Need for Healthy Debate – Churches must recover the counter-cultural skill of debating faithfully. As Dr. Willimon reminded us, we should be able to argue passionately and still gather together at the Lord’s table. Resisting Gossip and Lies – In an age of rumors, conspiracies, and viral misinformation, truth-telling has never been harder, or more essential. Pastors and congregations must commit to honest, transparent communication that resists the lure of gossip. 📖 Pick up Dr. Willimon’s book The Church We Carry: Loss, Leadership, and the Future of Our Church. 👉 Subscribe to The Last Service Podcast for more conversations on church transitions, leadership, and legacy.

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt talks with Joshua Gordon, pastor and author of How to Close a Church: Seven Steps to a Grace-Filled and Thoughtful Closing. Josh shares his story of serving at a church that eventually closed, what he learned from later shutting down his own ministry, and how endings, while painful, can become opportunities for healing and renewal. Together, they explore what many pastors avoid: the spiritual and pastoral side of church closure. Josh reminds us that while the technical steps of dissolving a congregation may be straightforward, the true work lies in shepherding people through grief, offering rest, and learning to trust that Jesus, not us, is building His church. 3 Key Takeaways for Declining Churches Closure is Pastoral, Not Just Technical – Closing a church requires more than handling property and finances. Leaders must guide people through grief and help them see closure as a spiritual decision. Honest Assessment is Crucial – Churches need the courage to evaluate leadership energy, congregational will, and systemic health. Without that honesty, revitalization efforts will fall flat. Rest is Part of Faithfulness – After a closure, leaders and members alike should resist the urge to immediately serve again. Time for healing and recovery is essential to move into future ministry in a healthy way. Resources & Links Read Josh Gordon’s article: How to Close a Church: Seven Steps to a Grace-Filled and Thoughtful Closing Connect with Josh Gordon: theleadpastor.com | Email: [email protected]

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt McGee is joined by Rick Reinhard—consultant, urban planner, and national thought leader on the redevelopment of faith-based properties. Together, they dive deep into the reality behind the wave of church closures sweeping across North America and explore what congregations and communities can do before it’s too late. Rick shares his insights from decades of work in municipal planning, denominational strategy, and property reuse. From deferred maintenance and financial transparency to zoning laws and community partnerships, this conversation offers both sobering truths and practical hope. Whether you’re a pastor, church board member, city planner, or nonprofit leader, this episode will change how you think about the future of church buildings—and the mission they were built to serve. In This Episode, You'll Learn: Why up to 100,000 churches may close in the next 20 years How deferred maintenance and denial quietly destroy congregations What churches can do now to redevelop or repurpose their property Why cities, counties, and community foundations must get involved What “YIGBY: Yes In God’s Backyard” means for affordable housing and church land Real-world examples of successful property reuse from around the country Mentioned in the Episode: “Tsunami of Church Closures” article by Rick Reinhard "Affordable Housing: YIGBY (“Yes in God’s Backyard”) Movement Seeks to Counter NIMBY Movement" by Rick Reinhard Gone for Good by Mark Elsdon About Our Guest: Rick Reinhard is the founder of Niagara Consulting Group, a consulting firm that helps municipalities, denominations, and nonprofits navigate the complex world of church property redevelopment. He has served as Chief of Staff to the Mayor of Buffalo, worked for the United Methodist Church’s social justice agency, and chaired a national HUD working group on vacant religious properties. Help Us Spread the Word: If this conversation sparked new ideas or challenged your assumptions, please rate and review the show—and share it with pastors, city officials, or anyone facing questions about the future of sacred spaces.

Matt sits down with beloved preacher, bishop, and author Dr. Will Willimon to talk about what it means for churches to age gracefully—and even die faithfully. Drawing on decades of ministry, Willimon unpacks the crisis and opportunity of aging congregations, shares compelling stories of churches handing off their legacy, and invites us to rethink what “decline” really means. What You’ll Learn: Why the church's aging population is both a challenge and an opportunity How congregations facing closure can do so with dignity and hope The essential role of elders in mentoring, ministry, and legacy How to tell the truth about decline without giving into despair Real stories of transformation from dying churches that gave away their buildings, responsibilities, and mission to the next generation Resources: All of Dr. Willimon's books: https://www.amazon.com/stores/author/B001IGHNA0 Aging (Pastoring for Life: Theological Wisdom for Ministering Well): Growing Old in Church Dr. Willimon's Faculty Page at Duke Divinity School Keywords: church closure, dying churches, aging congregations, Dr. Will Willimon, Methodist church, elder leadership, church revitalization, church legacy, handing off the church, resurrection theology, end-of-life ministry, pastoral care, aging and faith, The Last Service Podcast

In this insightful and heartfelt episode, Matt welcomes campus minister and author Casey Coston to discuss the challenges and beauty of a life spent in ministry. With over two decades of experience—from Ole Miss to the University of Delaware—Casey shares the inspiration behind his book Made Competent, and opens up about the trials of leadership, church decline, bivocational ministry, and maintaining authenticity amidst cultural and institutional shifts. Whether you’re a ministry leader, a member of a shrinking church, or someone navigating the complexities of calling and burnout, this episode offers wisdom, encouragement, and practical takeaways. 🔑 Key Topics Discussed Why attractional ministry models often fail to engage non-Christians—and what works better The unique challenges of campus ministry and why seminary often doesn’t prepare you for them How churches can better support their ministers through family crises and emotional burnout The spiritual and emotional journey behind Made Competent and the value of long-term journaling Reframing failure in ministry through a lens of faithfulness and identity in Christ ✨ Three Key Takeaways for Declining Churches Shift from Attractional to Relational Ministry Big events and flashy programs often attract Christians, not seekers. Churches in decline should pivot toward intentional, relationship-based outreach rooted in authenticity and presence, especially when targeting unchurched communities. Reframe Decline with a Missionary Mindset Decline doesn’t always equal failure. Instead, view your church as a missionary outpost. Embrace bivocational models and the missionary mindset—where fewer resources don't mean lesser impact, but a new context for faithful ministry. Support Ministers with Tangible Care When pastors are in crisis—whether from personal or church-related issues—the body of Christ must step up. Small gestures like meals, childcare, or handwritten notes remind ministers they are not alone. In declining churches, this pastoral care culture is essential during their search for new ministry opportunities. Resources Mentioned Made Competent by Casey Coston (available on Amazon, Walmart, and Kharis Publishing) The God Ask by Steve Shadrach – a practical guide to support raising in ministry

In this powerful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt sits down with Bruce Deel, CEO of City of Refuge, to explore an extraordinary story of transformation. Originally tasked with closing Mission Church at 14th Street, Bruce found himself in the midst of a divine calling to revitalize the church into a thriving ministry center. Discover how compassion, trust, and a willingness to adapt led to a vibrant community that continues to serve Atlanta's most vulnerable populations. 3 Key Takeaways: Embrace the Unexpected: Sometimes what feels like the end is just the beginning of a divine redirection. Bruce Deel walked into Mission Church expecting to close its doors, but instead, God revealed the needs of the community right outside their door. If your church feels like it's in its final chapter, don't underestimate the power of a single act of obedience or a moment of compassion.  Be with and choose to trust first: ministry often lies beyond the walls of comfort. Bruce and his family moved into a 65-year-old church building to live among those they served. His story is a powerful reminder that loving people where they are—and showing up every day with open hearts—can ignite the kind of transformation that brings new life to a church. Redefine Church Through Acts of Compassion: When Mission Church shifted its focus from traditional services to meeting the practical needs of the hurting, it blossomed into a beacon of hope. They attracted new members by meeting needs rather than new worship or programs. For churches struggling to find their way, the answer might not be in the next program or a new strategy but in stepping into the mess of real life, offering a meal, a bed, a prayer—creating a space where the vulnerable and the broken are welcome.  That sort of crowd may not be able to tithe much, but if your church is on the brink of closure... what do you have to lose? Resources: www.cityofrefugeatl.org

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, author and speaker Michelle Van Loon discusses the realities of church closures, the challenges of leadership, and how congregations can embrace endings with faith and wisdom. Michelle shares insights from her Plough article "A Good Death for Dying Churches" and her personal experiences with church transitions, including the closure of Grace Bible Fellowship. Three Key Takeaways: 1️⃣ Prioritize Discipleship Over Mere Survival – Michelle emphasizes that churches facing closure should focus on shepherding their members through the transition, viewing the process as an opportunity for discipleship rather than solely striving to keep the institution alive. 2️⃣ Church Self-Awareness Matters—Some churches are founded on a reaction to past experiences rather than a sustainable vision. Grace Bible Fellowship's close friendships, relational style, and consensus decision-making were in stark contrast to its abrupt ending. 3️⃣ Closure Needs Pastoral Care – Ending a church should be a deeply intentional and pastoral process, not a rushed decision. Grieving members need guidance, and there are growing resources to help communities close well. 🔗 Learn more about Michelle’s work at MichelleVanLoon.com and explore her reflections on church transitions in her Plough article: "A Good Death for Dying Churches". 🎧 Listen in as we discuss how churches can navigate the end of their life cycle with grace, care, and discipleship at the center. #ChurchLeadership #Discipleship #ChurchClosure #FaithfulEndings #MichelleVanLoon #TheLastServicePodcast

In this episode of the Last Service Podcast, Matt welcomes Sam Rainer, pastor, church consultant, and president of Church Answers, for a candid discussion about the state of the American church. Together, they explore the challenges facing congregations today, from declining membership to generational shifts in engagement. Sam shares actionable insights on how churches can revitalize, stay relevant, and impact their local communities. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or member, this episode is packed with wisdom to inspire and guide your ministry. Key Takeaways: Community-Centered Ministry: Churches thrive when they shift focus from attracting crowds to deeply engaging their local neighborhoods. Opportunities for Mid-Sized Churches: With the decline of the mega-church movement, mid-sized churches hold untapped potential for growth and generational outreach. Breaking the Decline Cycle: Strategic reinvention, mergers, and prioritizing multi-ethnic ministry can help churches overcome decline and build a sustainable future. Topics Discussed: Sam’s personal journey from business to ministry The purpose and tools offered by Church Answers Key challenges facing American evangelical churches today The rise of Gen Z’s religious commitment and its implications for church leadership The importance of multi-ethnic ministry in a changing demographic landscape Strategies for mid-sized churches to grow and serve their communities How to navigate the end of a church lifecycle with grace and kingdom purpose Quotes from the Episode: “The church is not a destination for crowds; it’s a vehicle to go to your neighborhood and the nations.” – Sam Rainer “You can grow a church so inward that it dies. The Great Commission must always be at the forefront.” “Breaking the church lifecycle requires intentional renewal and reinvention, one step at a time.” Resources Mentioned: Church Answers – Tools, coaching, and resources for church revitalization and growth Graphs About Religion by Ryan Burge – Website The Surprising Return of the Neighborhood Church by Sam Rainer Connect with Us: Visit our website for more episodes and resources: lastservicepodcast.com Rate & Review: If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a review on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback helps us reach more listeners!

🎙️ Episode Highlights In this special recap episode, host [Matt] reflects on the journey through Season 1 of The Last Service Podcast. Joined by his wife, Maureen, they dive into the heart of the podcast’s mission—exploring church closures, transitions, and the faithful endings that can lead to new beginnings. ✨ Key Topics Covered: Season Favorites: Episode 5: The heartfelt story of Rehoboth Presbyterian in Atlanta. Conversations with churchrealty.com's John Muzyka on the pastoral care side of realty. Insights from Bob Smeitana and Mark Elsdon on church decline in America. Legal knowledge from Erika Cole and the Good Friday Collaborative episodes. Lessons Learned: The role of pastoral care in closures. How demographic and cultural shifts impact churches. The importance of self-awareness and community support in navigating change. Personal Reflections: Matt shares insights from guiding a non-profit closure and the power of intentional endings. Key takeaways: "Thank you, I love you, I’m sorry, I forgive you." 💡 Why Listen Whether you’re navigating a church transition, a non-profit leader, or simply curious about the dynamics of faithful endings, this recap offers wisdom, encouragement, and practical advice.

In this powerful season finale, Matt sits down with the legendary religion news reporter and author Bob Smietana to explore the pressing realities facing churches today. From demographic shifts to the challenges of revitalization, Bob shares insights from his acclaimed book, Reorganized Religion, and personal experiences with church closures. This episode is packed with heartfelt stories, actionable insights, and a message of hope for communities navigating change. Key Topics Covered: The decline of church attendance: What's driving the numbers? Demographic and cultural changes impacting church vitality. Stories of resilience: Churches finding new purposes through partnerships and creativity. When it's time to close: The emotional and practical realities. Bob’s personal reflections on his own church's closure. Highlights You Won’t Want to Miss: [5:15] Why the American church boom of the mid-20th century is over. [15:50] The “Walmart effect” of church consolidation and its impact on smaller congregations. [28:30] What makes a “good ending” for a church, and how planning ahead can make all the difference. [35:40] Heartwarming stories of community and music from Bob’s former church. [46:10] How one pastor helped his congregation embrace closure with dignity. 3 Key Takeaways: 1. churches are closing mainly due to changes in demographics and society.  What worked to grow churches in prior decades no longer works, and it is often difficult for churches with older buildings to adapt to a new environment. 2. It's better when a church's building, property, and assets stay connected to the mission when transferring ownership. 3. Bob reports on and has written about many churches that have closed.  When he and his wife experienced a closing with the congregation they cared about, they experienced a sense of loss and grief.  But they also felt sent forth by a community that helped shape their lives.  Maybe a church can still be about sending long after it has stopped being able to bring people into a building. Resources Mentioned: Reorganized Religion: The Reshaping of the American Church and Why it Matters by Bob Smietana The Great Dechurching: Who’s Leaving, Why Are They Going, and What Will It Take to Bring Them Back? by Jim Davis The Good Friday Collabrative's 5 Stages of Church Closure Share this episode with friends and fellow churchgoers to spark meaningful conversations about the future of faith communities.    

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt dives into a conversation with Reverend Dr. Katie Nix and Reverend Dr. Phil Blackwell, pastors who led two congregations through a unique journey of merger and renewal. They share the incredible challenges and blessings of bringing together two legacy churches into a unified, mission-focused community. This merger took place amidst the complexities of the pandemic, highlighting the resilience, adaptability, and faith that fueled their journey. Dr. Nix and Dr. Blackwell explore what they learned in this process, from honoring each congregation's history to forging a shared vision for the future. They discuss practical insights into measuring success beyond traditional metrics, fostering a welcoming environment, and asking questions that prompt creative, forward-thinking ministry. Their story offers inspiring takeaways for church leaders, members, and anyone invested in the future of faith communities. Key Takeaways: Embrace Legacy with Purpose – The success of University and Grace UMC's merger hinged on respecting the legacies of each congregation while building a unified identity that serves both past and future communities. Measure Success Beyond Numbers – Traditional metrics like attendance are important but don't paint the whole picture; focus also on creating spaces for spiritual growth, and meaningful community impact. Ask Courageous Questions for Renewal – Continuously revisit your church's mission and ask, "What is God calling us to do next?" Embracing imagination and openness can reveal new paths for ministry and outreach. Listen to The Doctors are In and the story of Grace UMC's merger with University UMC here: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-doctors-are-in/id1706168185 https://podcasters.spotify.com/pod/show/kathryn-nix/episodes/The-Doctors-Are-In--S3-E2-A-Pastors-Perspective-on-Our-Church-Merger-e2q3mt6

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, we dive into the profound journey of pastoral transitions with Matt Davis, host of the Life After Ministry Podcast. Matt shares his personal experiences of stepping away from ministry after a moral failure and navigating life outside the church. This episode explores the emotional and logistical challenges pastors face when leaving a church and provides guidance on managing these transitions with grace and support. Davis's story is a testament to resilience and purpose, reminding us that even in difficult seasons, there is potential for growth and reorientation. Key Takeaways: Creating Compassionate Exits – Matt emphasizes that churches must prioritize compassion and dignity during pastoral exits, advocating for "kingdom outplacement." By offering structured support like coaching, counseling, and resume assistance, churches can model Christ-like love and compassion in difficult seasons. Provide Financial and Emotional Support – Financial insecurity frequently accompanies pastoral exits, leaving pastors in challenging positions when they are let go or the church closes. Be generous with severance and communicate with compassion.  The value of third party help - Difficult transitions for pastors or congregations at the end of their life can benefit from third party wisdom and guidance.  Bringing in a third party, like Pastoral Transitions, demonstrates a commitment to all people involved and a determination to end well. Additional Topics Covered: The spiritual struggle pastors face in redefining their sense of calling How structured transitions can contribute to healthier, more unified churches Insights on how churches can foster transparency and support during challenging pastoral changes Resources: www.pastoraltransitions.com Life After Ministry Podcast

In this powerful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt continues his conversation with Reverend Lorrin Radzik as they explore the complexities of church closures. Lorrin shares her personal journey of closing multiple churches and the unique challenges faced when congregations are forced to confront their own mortality. Together, they dive into how pastors can lead through difficult decisions, the role of a daycare ministry, and the emotional toll of these transitions. Yet amidst the grief, Lorrin uncovers the hopeful message of resurrection within the church’s final days. Listeners will be inspired by the candid discussion of what it means to lead faithfully, even when the end is near, and how to embrace new beginnings in unexpected places. Key Takeaways: Resurrection Beyond Closure: Lorrin explains that even when churches close, their ministry can live on through community connections, spiritual legacies, and even new congregations inhabiting former spaces. The Emotional Toll of Church Decline: The episode explores the grief and anger that often accompany church closures, highlighting the resilience required of pastors to navigate these emotional waters with compassion and courage. Reframing Success: Church closure doesn’t mean failure. Matt and Lorrin discuss how honoring a church’s history and legacy can help members find peace in knowing they fulfilled their mission.

In this raw and insightful episode, Matt sits down with Rev. Lorrin Radzik, a United Methodist pastor with a powerful story of navigating the complexities of ministry, church closure, and personal growth. Lorrin shares her experience leading a struggling congregation in Wisconsin, where she guided the church through the challenging decision to close after decades of decline. Her journey, filled with difficult conversations, resilience, and ultimate closure, offers deep insights into the reality of pastoral leadership and church vitality. Key Takeaways: The Impact on Pastors Lorrin was placed in an impossible situation with unrealistic expectations at an early and critical time in her career.  At times, she questioned her calling and ability.  Young pastors rarely reverse the outcome of a dying church.  Search committees and denominational officials must consider the long-term impact on a young minister's career when placed in a declining church, or at least be straightforward about the church's history and stage of life.   Leading with Transparency and Courage Throughout the process, Lorrin demonstrated the importance of being honest with congregants about the church's future, even when it was difficult. Her story highlights the necessity of courageous leadership, especially in times of crisis.  Lorrin confronted denial and anger in her congregation while still recognizing their faithfulness. Closure as a Faithful Decision While closing a church might seem like a failure, Lorrin reframes it as an act of faithfulness. She emphasizes that sometimes, the most faithful thing a church can do is to close, passing its legacy and resources on to a new community for future ministry. Resources: http://www.revlorrinradzik.com/ https://www.goodfridaycollaborative.com/ https://nationalhmongcaucusumc.weebly.com/

In this compelling episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dave Meserve, an experienced transitional pastor who has guided multiple churches through the difficult process of closing. Dave shares powerful stories and invaluable insights on how to approach church closures with compassion, wisdom, and a focus on spiritual health. Key Points: Dave's unique journey from traditional ministry to becoming a "pastor at large" and transitional leader The importance of addressing "faith ceilings" and allowing for spiritual growth in church leadership Detailed accounts of two non-denominational church closures Dave facilitated The critical role of trust-building and transparent communication during church transitions How to create meaningful closing ceremonies that honor a church's history and provide closure The significance of "staying for the benediction" - finding blessing in the ending process Insights on matching pastoral leadership styles to church size and growth goals The value of diverse leadership teams, including both men and women Understanding churches as relationships with natural lifespans Quotes: "Don't leave before the benediction - there's a blessing if you stay to the end." - Dave Meserve "Churches have lifespans. They have beginnings, long middles we hope, and ends." - Dave Meserve Keywords: church closure, transitional pastor, faith ceiling, non-denominational churches, church leadership, pastoral care, church ceremonies, spiritual health, church size dynamics, diverse leadership, church lifespan This episode offers essential guidance for church leaders, pastors, and congregants facing potential church closures or significant transitions. Dave Meserve's experiences provide a roadmap for approaching these challenging situations with grace, intentionality, and a focus on long-term spiritual wellbeing.

In this episode, host Matt interviews Gail Cafferata, author of "The Last Pastor" and a retired Episcopal priest who closed a church. Gail shares her personal experience closing a congregation and insights from her research surveying over 100 pastors who have gone through church closures. Key topics discussed: - Gail's background as a medical sociologist and Episcopal priest - The emotional and career toll of closing a church on pastors - How sailing metaphors can help understand church leadership  - The importance of "differentiation" for pastors leading dying churches - Ways congregations and denominations can support pastors through closure - What constitutes a "good death" for a congregation 3 Key Takeaways: 1. Closing a church takes a significant emotional and career toll on pastors, with many experiencing stress, isolation, and difficulty finding new positions afterward. 2. "Differentiation" - maintaining healthy boundaries between oneself and the congregation - is crucial for pastors leading churches through closure. 3. A "good death" for a church involves celebrating its legacy, providing pastoral care, and empowering members to continue ministry elsewhere. This episode provides valuable insights for pastors, church leaders, and anyone interested in the challenges facing declining congregations in America today.

In this episode, we sit down with Mike Sares, director of Urban Skye, to discuss their unique approach to ministry outside traditional church structures. Mike shares insights from his extensive experience, including pastoring Scum of the Earth Church and working with various faith entrepreneurs. Key points covered: • Urban Skye acts as an umbrella organization for freelance pastors, providing administrative support and spiritual community • Their model draws inspiration from St. Patrick's missionary approach of engaging culture • Mike discusses the importance of relationship-building and entering people's worlds rather than expecting them to enter the church's world • Urban Skye supports a wide variety of ministries, from prison outreach to counseling for missionaries to creative arts programs • The organization emphasizes experimentation and allows for failure as part of the growth process • Mike shares thoughts on how declining churches can learn from Urban Skye's flexible, relationship-focused approach Mike provides a refreshing perspective on doing ministry in today's cultural landscape, emphasizing authenticity, humility, and a willingness to color outside the lines of traditional church structures. His insights are valuable for pastors, church leaders, and anyone interested in innovative approaches to faith and community. 3 Key Takeaways: 1. Effective ministry often happens outside church walls, meeting people where they are culturally and spiritually. 2. Embracing failure and experimentation is crucial for spiritual growth and innovative ministry. 3. Declining churches can benefit from focusing on relationships and being willing to change their approaches drastically.   Resources: https://www.urbanskye.org/ https://www.mikesares.com/ Pure Scum by Mike Sares https://scumoftheearth.net/ https://www.fiveironfrenzy.com/  

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Bart McDonald from the Southern Baptist of Texas Foundation about their innovative Jubilee Program. This program helps struggling churches preserve their assets and legacy while transitioning to new ministries or congregations. Key Points: The Jubilee Program is based on biblical principles from Leviticus and Deuteronomy It allows dying churches to transfer their property to the foundation, which then renovates and transfers it to new ministries The program has rescued millions of dollars in church assets that may have otherwise been lost It provides financial stability and guidance to both struggling churches and new church plants The foundation takes a pastoral approach, encouraging churches that God is not disappointed in them Quotes: "We don't want to hold a Jubilee property in our possession any longer than it takes to get it back into the hands of the local New Testament church." - Bart McDonald "If God's people will get together and prayerfully seek the face of God, it's been my experience that God's people will almost always do the right thing." - Bart McDonald Key Takeaways: The Jubilee program applies real estate principles in a non-profit framework to give dying churches better options. Partnering with other ministries to use empty church space is not always good stewardship - financial viability must be considered. Churches often wait too late to ask for help. Declining churches should seek guidance early from denominational resources. Call-to-Action: If you've been part of a church closing or merger, share your story by emailing [email protected] Related Topics: Church revitalization, Church planting, Baptist churches, Church property management, Legacy giving

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee interviews Dr. Myles Werntz, Associate Professor of Theology at Abilene Christian University. They discuss the concept of scarcity in churches and how it's affecting congregations across denominations. Dr. Werntz shares insights from his recent Christianity Today article "Scarcity's Strange Gifts" and explores the challenges and opportunities presented by resource constraints in modern church settings. Key topics covered: The psychological effects of scarcity on decision-making Historical and biblical perspectives on church scarcity Strategies for churches facing declining resources The potential benefits and virtues developed through scarcity The future of church staffing and ministry models Three Key Takeaways: Scarcity is becoming a widespread issue for churches across denominations, affecting resources, attendance, and staffing. This trend is likely to continue and requires new approaches to ministry. While challenging, scarcity can provide unexpected benefits such as increased focus, empathy, and creativity in problem-solving. It may also foster the development of important virtues like courage and patience. Churches may need to consider new models of ministry, including bi-vocational pastors, increased lay leadership, and resource sharing between congregations, to effectively navigate scarce conditions. Keywords: church scarcity, declining resources, ministry challenges, church leadership, bi-vocational ministry, church attendance trends, Christian ethics, theology, church growth Resources: Scarcity's Strange Gifts by Myles Werntz Myles Werntz's Substack Howard Thurman

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt interviews Dr. Stanley Granberg, founder of Heritage 21, an organization dedicated to helping declining churches make critical decisions about their future. Dr. Granberg shares his extensive experience in church planting, missions, and organizational leadership, offering valuable insights into the challenges facing aging congregations. Key topics discussed: The Quick 50 Assessment: A simple tool to determine if a church needs to consider its existential future, based on three factors: church age, average member age, and attendance. The threshold for church survivability: Why 60 in attendance is a crucial number for church sustainability and the shift from public to private spheres. The concept of "stewarding God's mission" and how it applies to churches in various stages of life, including decline. The five systems that impact church health: theological, missional, leadership, relational, and physical. The importance of perspective and making proactive decisions before reaching a stage of "leadership dementia." A case study of a church closure that resulted in positive outcomes and the continuation of God's mission through new church plants. The challenges of conflict resolution in declining churches and the impact on closure decisions. The inevitability of system failures in churches and the opportunity for renewal. Dr. Granberg emphasizes the importance of courage, facing reality, and putting plans on paper to gain perspective when dealing with church decline. He encourages church leaders to view their situation objectively and make informed decisions about their future. 3 Key Takeaways: The Quick 50 Assessment (50 years old, 50 average age, 50 or fewer in attendance) is a useful tool for identifying churches that may need to consider their long-term viability. Church planters consider 60 in regular attendance to be an indicator of viability. 60 feels like a crowd and has adequate energy to do ministry. Addressing church decline requires a systems-thinking approach.  Churches are a network of systems.  Like organs in a body, the systems will eventually fail. Resources: Empty Church: Why People Don't Come and What to Do About It by Dr. Stanley Granberg Heritage 21

In this special "Potluck" episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee catches up with his old friend, Dr. Jim Trammell, Associate Professor of Communication at High Point University, a frequent contributor to Baptist News Global, and deacon at Emerywood Baptist Church, to discuss the evolving role of media in modern church worship. They explore how technology and media shape congregations, online church services' pros and cons, and the challenges facing traditional and contemporary worship styles. Key Topics Discussed: The impact of media and technology on church services Differences between traditional and contemporary worship spaces The rise of online church and its effects on community Balancing evangelism and discipleship in media-driven churches The inevitability of church closures and how to approach them The "coolness factor" in modern worship and its implications Notable Quotes: "In a lot of contemporary media-centric churches, media is so important to how they do worship that if you eliminate all the electronic media, you no longer have a service." - Dr. Jim Trammell  Keyword Tags: church media, worship technology, online church, church closures, contemporary worship, traditional worship, evangelism, discipleship, church community

Discover how the Dinner Church Collective is revitalizing the way we experience church and reach the unchurched. In this thought-provoking episode, Verlon Fosner shares his journey of transforming a dying church into a vibrant community centered around the simple act of gathering for a meal and engaging with the stories of Jesus. Learn about the sociological challenges facing modern churches, the surprising spiritual experiences witnessed at Jesus' tables, and the growth of this innovative approach across the country. Gain insights into building an inclusive and accessible form of worship that resonates with those disconnected from traditional church settings. Outline: Introduction to Verlon Fosner and his background The decline of his church and the realization of a sociological problem The idea of Dinner Church and its origins in the New Testament The structure and format of a Dinner Church gathering The impact of Dinner Church on isolated and unchurched individuals The surprising spiritual experiences and healings witnessed at Jesus' tables The growth of the Dinner Church movement across the country Resources for learning more about Dinner Church Key Takeaways: Despite everyone's best efforts Westminster Community was unsuccessful at revitalizing.  Revitalization came by becoming aware of the sociological needs of their surrounding community.  Verlon used words like 'rescue' and 'recovery' to describe their new sense of mission, rather than words like 'reach' and 'attract' which are often associated with church growth. Verlon's five aspects of what makes a church a church are a great way to measure the health of your church beyond just attendance or membership: Worship Fellowship Discipleship Evangelism Compassion The apostolic age of the church might be the best place to look for inspiration on how to be a church in an unchurched world.  Given our society's current rates of loneliness, isolation and division, it's not that surprising to see Westminster Community Assembly of God grow across a city by building tables rather than auditoriums. Resources: https://www.dinnerchurch.com/

Karl Vaters joins The Last Service Podcast to discuss the unique challenges and opportunities facing small churches. With over 40 years of pastoral experience and as the author of several books on small church ministry, Karl provides valuable insights to help small congregations thrive. Key Topics: - Defining what constitutes a "small church" - The obsession with big church models and church growth movements  - Finding metrics beyond attendance to assess church health - Navigating successful pastoral transitions and succession plans - The life cycle of churches and signs it may be ending - Creating a positive legacy when a church closes Quotes: "We have to be thinking more innovatively and creatively than just the church building itself." - Karl Vaters on repurposing church facilities "Integrity is the new competence. We've been teaching primarily management tools for 30 years. People aren't leaving because we didn't get techniques right, but because of a lack of integrity." - Vaters "There does come a point where a church closing becomes inevitable...you have to be proactive and make difficult decisions." - Vaters on knowing when to end well Listen to this insightful episode to gain wisdom for thriving as a small congregation or navigating a church's ending with Christ-centered integrity. 3 Key Takeaways: 1. Small churches are different animals than large churches, and bigger isn't always better.  Be careful of applying big church solutions and tools to small churches and find ways to define the church's health beyond Sunday morning attendance. 2. Pastor transitions can cause existential problems for a church.  They require time, intention, and clear communication.  3. We can think of a church's lifecycle like flowing down a river.  There will be an ending.  We must be aware of where we are in our life cycle and pay attention to the signs of what's coming.  When we've passed the point of no return, let Christ be your legacy and do the work to ensure the remaining resources build the kingdom of God.   Resources: karlvaters.com Karl's books, including De-Sizing the Church Church Lobby Podcast Ignatian Spirituality Les McKeown and Carey Nieuwhof on Church Life Cycles

In this insightful episode, Matt talks with Erika Cole, known as the Church Attorney, about navigating the legal process of church closures and mergers. Erika provides a wealth of knowledge on checklist items, vital documents, legal steps, and wisdom for churches going through this transition. As churches across America continue to close at an alarming rate, having proper legal guidance is crucial for a good ending. Erika Cole, the renowned Church Attorney, joins the podcast to walk through the important steps churches need to take when facing a closure or merger. From collecting vital documents to understanding decision-making processes, asset distribution, and finding the right legal counsel - Erika covers it all with competence, character and compassion. This is an invaluable episode for any church leader contemplating the future of their congregation. Keywords: church closing, church merger, nonprofit law, church attorney, church leadership, legal counsel for churches, ministry transition, ending well Listen to this powerful discussion to gain Erika's expert guidance for churches approaching their final chapter. Her wisdom will help ensure an inspirational and God-honoring conclusion. Key Takeaways Cultivate a culture of self-assessment - this will help you recognize signs of decline and give you a healthy amount of time to weigh options and end well. Find your critical legal documents and review them every two years - Use The Church Attorney's Checklist (see below) Erika's love for the church shines throughout our conversation. Look for an attorney with Competence, Character, and Compassion—someone who has experience in non-profits and churches, not just businesses and contracts.  Resources: www.erikacole.com Church Law Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/church-law/id1586340872 Masterclass: https://www.erikacole.com/thechurchattorney-masterclass The Church Attorney's Guide to Church Mergers: https://www.erikacole.com/shop/p/the-church-attorneys-guide-to-church-mergers Church Legal Document Checklist

In this episode, Matt is joined by Rev. Diane Kenaston, co-founder of The Good Friday Collaborative. They discuss how churches can approach the difficult process of closing, merging, or consolidating ministries faithfully and pastorally. Diane shares her own experience leading a church through a merger and the valuable lessons learned. She also unpacks the five stages of church closures outlined by The Good Friday Collaborative as a framework for congregations. Key Topics: - The origins of The Good Friday Collaborative - Diane's personal story of leading a church through merger  - Dealing with the stigma and shame around church closure - The 5 stages of church closures: Quiet Wondering, Naming & Normalizing, Intentional Decision Making, Planning for Final Ministry, Leading Final Ministry - Providing spiritual care for "last pastors" overseeing church closures - Overcoming exhaustion to achieve a good, faithful ending - Embracing death and new beginnings as part of the church's resurrection   Key Quotes: "We need to approach discernment with open hands, listening for how God is guiding us."  "A good ending is when the congregation has the chance to say thank you, I love you, I'm sorry, and I forgive you." "Dying is inevitable, so church closures are inevitable. But we believe in resurrection and new beginnings too." This insightful episode is a must-listen for any church leader grappling with decline and facing difficult decisions about their congregation's future. Rev. Kenaston provides compassionate, theologically grounded wisdom for navigating church closures faithfully. 3 takeaways: 1. Many pastors at declining congregations are relatively young and in the first half of their careers.  Closing a church earlier in life could profoundly impact the pastor's career for decades.  Do what you can to provide spiritual aftercare for the pastor who has guided a congregation through merger or closure.  It will impact future generations of the church. 2. Good Friday Collaborative 5 Stages of Closure is an invaluable framework for the spiritual, emotional, and logistical path to ending well.  Read it and study it long before your church is in decline. 3. Rev. Kenaston's church was beautifully intentional about every aspect of their merger despite their exhaustion.  I'm sure it wasn't perfect, but they found joy during their grief.  They made decisions in keeping with where they believed God had called them until their final service.  And then they were made into something new.  This is the work of a good shepherd.    Resources: https://www.goodfridaycollaborative.com/ Church Closure in 5 Stages: https://www.goodfridaycollaborative.com/writing/church-closure-in-five-stages Article: How to Avoid the Stained-Glass Cliff When Leading a Dying Church: https://faithandleadership.com/how-avoid-falling-the-stained-glass-cliff-when-leading-dying-church The Last Pastor by Gail Cafferata: https://www.amazon.com/Last-Pastor-Gail-Cafferata/dp/0664264980

In this special "Potluck" episode of The Last Service Podcast, host Matt McGee is interviewed by his friend Michael Lomuscio about the origins of the podcast, the declining state of church attendance and membership, and what constitutes a good or bad church closing. Key Topics: Matt's background and what sparked his interest in researching closing churches Statistics on dropping church membership and attendance rates in the United States The possibility that more churches in America closed than opened in 2019 for the first time The rise of the "nones" - those with no religious affiliation Economic factors like deferred maintenance costs contributing to church closures Examples of good vs. bad ways for a church to close down Continuing the gospel mission vs. hoarding resources with no community impact Resources: Reorganized Religion by Bob Smietana Fullstack Educator Podcast Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition Ryan Burge

In this episode, Matt interviews John Muzyka, a church real estate expert, about how churches can navigate the end of their life cycle well. John provides wise counsel on assessing property needs, making tough decisions with church committees, finding the right realtor, and determining if the building still serves the church's mission. 3 takeaways for dying churches: 1. Think of your building as a tool for ministry.  Tools expire, and your building may not be the right tool for your congregation during this phase of ministry.  Keep in mind that getting people in the building doesn't necessarily mean your church is ministering to them if you don't actually have a relationship with the clients your tenant serves. 2. Consider how you can right-size your building to reduce maintenance costs and utilize a space that fits the size of your congregation.   3. Closing may not be inevitable, but it is normal.  Churches are full of human beings who make mistakes, miss opportunities, and resist change.  The question is how we move forward.  Practice courageous honesty and ask yourselves how God is leading you to steward the resources you've been given.  Get help when you need it. Resources: John's Contact: [email protected] www.churchrealty.com Church Leaders, Are Your Decisions Missional or Emotional? - by John Muzyka Southern Baptists of Texas Foundation - Jubilee Program Client Story: https://www.sbtexasfoundation.com/articles/imagechurch   Keywords: church closures, church mergers, church life cycle, church property, church real estate, selling church buildings, donating church buildings, church committees, pastoring a dying church

In this episode, host Matt interviews Tom Sander, a longtime music minister who helped facilitate the merger between Ballast Point Baptist Church and Davis Islands Baptist Church (an extension of Idlewild Baptist) in Tampa, Florida in the early 2000s. Tom shares the story of how Ballast Point, despite having a healthy congregation, decided a merger was needed for revitalization and greater community impact rather than waiting until desperation set in. 3 Takeaways for Dying Churches: Let go.  Tom led Ballast Point through a merger even when it meant losing control and autonomy.  He helped others see that this was more important than their preferences.  Steady, committed leadership may be better than having a pastor who is a dynamic speaker.   Don't wait until your church is desperate for help. Make the best decisions for the future of your church while you have resources to offer. Resources: South Tampa Fellowship: https://stfchurch.com/ Idlewild Baptist Church: https://www.idlewild.org/  

Welcome back to another insightful episode of The Last Service Podcast! Matt sits down with Pastor Ernie Wagoner from Sojourn Church in Marietta, GA. Pastor Ernie shares the story of planting Sojourn Church and is incredibly vulnerable about their early struggles. We learn the story of their unique merger with Paper Mill Road Baptist Church, a true merger of two congregations - one struggling to find their future, the other in need of a new home.  Throughout the conversation, we hear the story that God wrote for these two churches, a story bigger than one pastor, bigger than one church, bigger than their brand, and bigger than our ideas of success. 3 Takeaways for Dying Churches: Humility on the part of both congregations is crucial for making a merger work. Balance leading the business aspects of merger with pastoral care. Merging with an older church can help both congregations see the bigger picture of the eternal church.  Don't write off the decades of successful ministry in the declining church and pretend they don't matter.  Listen to their stories and honor them. Resources: Sojourn Church history - https://sojournonline.org/ourstory Better Together: Making Church Mergers Work - https://www.amazon.com/Better-Together-Making-Church-Mergers/dp/1118131304

Welcome to another insightful episode of The Last Service Podcast! In this edition, your host Matt engages in a thought-provoking conversation with pastor and developer Mark Elsdon discussing his latest book, "Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition." 3 Takeaways for Dying Churches: Before you list your property for sale - consider how the land your church owns could benefit your local community The decline of churches in America is not a failure.  It's an opportunity to rethink the relationship between churches and communities. When reaching the end of a church's life cycle, consider how final decisions about church property could advance the mission of the church. Don't simply consider the value when sold. 📚 About the Episode: Join us as Matt dives deep into the intricate details of the upcoming wave of church property transitions with Mark Elsdon. Discover the challenges and opportunities that lie ahead as churches and their surrounding communities navigate the complex process of transitioning their properties. Mark shares his expertise, drawn from years of experience, shedding light on the theological and ethical issues that will impact communities for future generations. 🎙️ Key Topics Covered: The economic impact of churches on their surrounding communities Insights into the coming wave of transitions and what it means for churches and communities. Opportunities to develop multi-use spaces in partnership with developers and municipalities. Mark Elsdon's unique theological and moral perspective on the future of church property. 💡 Featured Guest: Mark Elsdon: Mark is cofounder of RootedGood, which supports catalytic and innovative church leaders working on property development, money and mission alignment, and social enterprise; executive director at Pres House and Pres House Apartments on the University of Wisconsin's Madison campus; principal at Threshold Sacred Development; and past president of the board of directors for Working Capital for Community Needs, an impact investing fund that provides microfinance funding to the working poor in Latin America.  He is an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church, USA, and lives in Madison, Wisconsin.  📖 Mark's Book - "Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition": Explore the pages of Mark's latest book, where he delves into the intricacies of church property transitions. Discover practical advice, case studies, and actionable insights to navigate this crucial phase in your church's journey. 🔗 Connect with Mark Elsdon: For more information, visit Mark's website: melsdon.com. Stay updated on his latest insights, articles, and resources to empower your church community. 📌 Episode Resources: Mark Elsdon's Book: "Gone for Good? Negotiating the Coming Wave of Church Property Transition" Mark Elsdon's Website: melsdon.com The Village at West Jefferson 🙏 Support the Show: If you find this episode informative, please consider subscribing, leaving a review, and sharing it with your network. Your support allows us to continue bringing you thought-provoking stories and conversations.    

In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, listeners are taken on a poignant journey through the life of Rehoboth Presbyterian Church, as recounted by Rev. AJ Mealor. Having grown up in the close-knit community and later being ordained there, Rev. Mealor shares the deeply personal story of his lifelong connection with Rehoboth. 3 Takeaways for a Dying Church: A church's legacy is created through the investment of time and resources in its children and youth. Healthy relationships between adults and youth can have an impact that outlasts the life cycle of the church. Rehoboth Presbyterian's ending freed the remaining members to serve their new churches in more meaningful ways. Closing a church requires us to let go of our attachments to things, spaces, traditions, etc. But we can, and should, recognize and grieve the loss.  That grief is a testament to the goodness of the church family. The episode unfolds as Rev. Mealor vividly describes the pivotal moment in his life, five years after his ordination, when he led Communion for the final service at Rehoboth Presbyterian Church. The timing of this significant event, occurring exactly on the anniversary of his ordination, adds heaviness to the farewell. Listeners gain insight into the church's history and the profound impact it had on Rev. Mealor's ministry. Through anecdotes and heartfelt reflections, he explores the enduring legacy of Rehoboth Presbyterian Church, emphasizing the role it played in shaping his spiritual journey and pastoral calling.  As Rev. AJ Mealor shares his thoughts on the church's impact on his ministry, listeners are inspired to reflect on the broader significance of congregational relationships between the elderly and youth, and the indelible mark they leave on both individuals and communities. In this moving episode, The Last Service Podcast captures the essence of saying goodbye to a cherished spiritual family, leaving listeners with a sense of gratitude for the memories created and the lasting influence of Rehoboth Presbyterian Church. Resources and Links Columbia Theological Seminary The Emerging Church by Dan Kimball  Atlanta Journal-Constitution Article on Rehoboth Closing -------------------------------------------------- Rehoboth Presbyterian Church's Final Service: A Service of Witness to the Resurrection  Celebrating the Life of Rehoboth Presbyterian Church June 1949-May 2016 May 15, 2016 3 pm Gathering Fellowship and Prayer ~~~Enjoy fellowship, being mindful of those who prepare privately.~~~ Prelude Hymn Jesus Saves Welcome Rev. Rachael Whaley Pate The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all.  And also with you. Preparing † Call to Worship Rev. John Salley We are gathered in one place to call on the name of the Lord. Come, Holy Spirit, come! We are members of one body, calling out in Jesus' name: Come, Holy Spirit, come! † Hymn The Church's One Foundation #321 Prayer of Confession Rev. Joel Tolbert Holy God, You see us as we are, and know our inmost thoughts. We confess that we are unworthy of your loving care. We forget that all life comes from you,  and that to you all life returns. We have not always sought or done your will. We have not lived as your grateful children, nor loved as Christ loved us. We have not always been the church you called us to be. Forgive us, God of grace. Heal us and make us whole. Help us to live in your light, and walk in your ways, through Jesus Christ our Lord. Petition Lord, Have Mercy #551 ~~~A time of quiet, personal confession ~~~ Assurance of Pardon The Lord is with us!    The Lord is with us, indeed!  Response Glory to God #582 † We Share the Peace of Christ The peace of Christ be with you.  And also with you. ~~~You are invited to greet one another in the name of Christ. ~~~ †Sung Response       Halle, Halle, Hallelujah #591   Sharing Prayer of Preparation Elder David Bowman First Scripture Reading Genesis 26:17-22 Anthem The Greatest Commands Rehoboth Choir Second Scripture Reading Revelation 22 Sermon                 Rev. Rachael Whaley Pate Responding † Hymn To God Be the Glory #634 Giving Our Tithes and Offerings                     Mrs. Joann Brown and Mr. Charles Jolley Offertory Anthem God Is in Every Tomorrow Rehoboth Choir † Sung Response      Doxology #609 Praise God from whom all blessings flow;   Praise God all creatures high and low.   Alleluia!  Alleluia! Praise God in Jesus fully known;  Creator, Word and Spirit one. Alleluia!  Alleluia!  Alleluia!  Alleluia!  Alleluia! † Prayer of Thanksgiving and Dedication   Sealing: The Lord’s Supper Invitation to the Table Rev. AJ Mealor Great Prayer of Thanksgiving & Lord’s Prayer  The Lord be with you.  And also with you. Lift up your hearts.  We lift them up to the Lord. Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.  It is right to give our thanks and praise. ….As your children we are bold to pray: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name.    Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.   Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors.  And lead us not into temptation,  but deliver us from evil, for Thine is the kingdom, and the power,  and the glory, forever.  Amen. Breaking of the Bread; Pouring of the Cup Communion of the People Prayer   Celebrating the Life of Rehoboth Presbyterian Church   Rehoboth Proclamation Elder Buz Smith Transfer of Symbols Elder Brad Bryant Litany of Praise Rev. Joy Fisher For the Church universal, of which this building has been a symbol, we praise you, O God. For all the saints who have met in this place to offer their prayers and praise to you, we praise you, O God. For your presence whenever your Word has been proclaimed and your gifts of bread and cup received, we praise you, O God. For those who have been claimed as your children  in the waters of baptism, we praise you, O God. For all who came seeking your blessing in marriage, we praise you, O God. For faithful stewards, who have lived for others, serving you by loving neighbors, we praise you, O God. For all who were gathered from this place, having lived this life in faith, who now live eternally with you, we praise you, O God. For the knowledge that your church and your ministry among us will continue today, tomorrow, and forever, we praise you, O God.  In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,  by recommendation of the Session, vote of the congregation, and concurrence of the Presbytery of Greater Atlanta,  Rehoboth Presbyterian Church is now dissolved. We praise you, O God, through Jesus Christ our Lord, and by the power of the Holy Spirit. Amen. Departing to Be the Church in the World † Hymn Blest Be the Tie that Binds #306 † Blessing Benediction Children of Rehoboth Postlude       Worship Notes    Worship Leaders Mr. David Bowman, Ruling Elder serving under every pastor in Rehoboth's history Mrs. Joann Brown and Mr. Charles Jolley, Charter Members, longest members in continuous service Mr. Brad Bryant, Clerk of Session Reverend Joy Fisher, Congregational Consultant of the Presbytery of Greater Atlanta  Reverend AJ Mealor, ordained to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament at Rehoboth Reverend John Salley, ordained to the Ministry of Word and Sacrament at Rehoboth Mr. Buz Smith, Elder of Rehoboth, author of the Presbytery proclamation Reverend Joel Tolbert, Pastor of Rehoboth 2005- 2012 Reverend Rachael Whaley Pate, Pastor of Rehoboth 2013- 2016   About the Hymns Jesus Saves, found in the Abiding Songs Hymnal from Kittredge Chapel, sung at Founder's Day in 1950. The Church's One Foundation, sung at the laying of the Sanctuary building cornerstone in 1956. To God Be the Glory, sung at the retirement (April 26, 1992) and funeral (August 28, 1995) of  Reverend Samuel Horton Christopher, Jr., pastor of Rehoboth from 1952-1992.   Blest Be the Tie that Binds, sung at the 50th anniversary celebration on June 6, 1999.  For many years, this hymn welcomed every new member into the life of Rehoboth.  Let it now send us to join the Church in the world. The Life and Times of Rehoboth Presbyterian Church, 1939-2016   This church was “birthed” by the unstinting, cooperative efforts of Druid Hills Presbyterian Church, Presbytery of Greater Atlanta and Columbia Theological Seminary as an ‘outpost’ Sunday School in 1939.  Through a series of steps small and large-- including her women carrying the load during WW II-- this congregation evolved.  What began as worship under an umbrella of trees progressed through a small chapel on Pangborn Rd.; to Rehoboth Elementary School’s auditorium; and thence to today’s location on Lawrenceville Highway.  She was named after the school.   Her first service was in June 1949 and she opened her permanent doors in 1952.  Reverend Samuel Christopher Jr. pastored from 1952 to 1992.   After Rev. Christopher’s retirement, Rev. Don Wade served as interim and stated supply pastor from 1992 to 2002.  Rev. Ken Wilmesherr served as interim pastor from 2002 to 2005.  Rev. Joel L. Tolbert was called and installed as Pastor in 2005 and served until called to another church in 2012.  Rev. Dudley Rose and Rev. Mary Jane Cornell served as interim pastors through June 2013 when Rev. Rachael Whaley Pate was named pastor elect.  She has been our pastor since then.   At some point in this lifespan, Rehoboth’s increasing campus growth line crossed her declining membership line.  As has happened too many times across the nation, it was only a matter of time until this irreconcilable, unsustainable contrast brought an end to the viability of the church.   Let us then celebrate the unique life rhythms of Rehoboth Presbyterian Church over her lifespan:   Inward  focus:  only three installed pastors in 64 years; served the myriad needs of her congregation through joys, tragedies, births, weddings, deaths, support for youth and seniors,  hope for personal salvation, holy sacraments, and Christianity’s holiest events for youth through seniors.  Campus grew to five major buildings, including a modern gymnasium.   Outward focus: Hunger— via cooperative ‘Stephen’ program (1983-1999), served over 300,000 meals to the needy; youth made “blessing bags” of food for needy neighbors; supported Decatur Cooperative Ministries and Networks to help the homeless and the hungry .   Community—offered a thriving kindergarten and later a beloved preschool program; served as a magnet and nerve center for the community via the gym, meeting spaces, activities; and provided space for multiple smaller congregations’ worship services.   Region—Provided support for Thornwell Home for Children;  support and scholarships to Presbyterian College, both in Clinton, SC.;  supported Presbyterian Homes.   Nation and world—supported Presbyterian Disaster Assistance programs; supported 28 missionaries to Brazil, Congo, Indonesia, Japan, Korea, Lithuania, Malawi, Nigeria, Philippines, Taiwan, Zaire and Rivers of the World.   As Winston Churchill said during WW II, “This is not the end, nor the beginning of the end, but it is the end of the beginning.”  Now Rehoboth Presbyterian as a congregation will reconstitute ourselves, going from a community of believers in one location to emissaries of faith to other locations, like seed sown on new, fertile soils.   We will continue to strive to “grow disciples of Jesus Christ through relationships.”   We give thanks for God’s grace, for our time together in faith, and for God’s precious Son. *This Proclamation will be shared at the stated meeting of the Presbytery of Greater Atlanta on May 17, 2016.   --------------- Credits Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/arend/lavender License code: ZIXQF4BKKOTTJFRX

Introduction: Join us in this enlightening episode of The Last Service Podcast as Matt sits down with Pastor Joe McClellan of The Point Church, based in Pensacola, FL. In this exclusive interview, we dive into the extraordinary tale of how First Baptist Church in Elberta, AL, generously passed on their building to The Point Church. Get ready to uncover the untold story of collaboration, faith, and community impact. 3 Takeaways for Dying Churches: Joe and Mike worked to create a sense of common ground between their churches. The Point Church encouraged questions but we're very clear about their intentions and that FBE's church Closure was necessary to move forward. Dying churches should ask for help.  Most healthy churches will respond.  By dying, and joint The Point, vibrant ministry continues in Elberta. Show Notes: Introduction to Pastor Joe McClellan: Our host, Matt, opens the episode by welcoming Pastor Joe McClellan to The Last Service Podcast. Pastor Joe is the Executive Pastor of The Point Church, an influential Baptist church in Pensacola, FL. The Handover from First Baptist Elberta: In a gripping revelation, Pastor Joe shares the incredible journey of how First Baptist Church in Elberta, AL, chose to gift their building to The Point Church. Uncover the motivations, challenges, and heartfelt moments that led to this divine handover. Collaboration with Pastor Mike Woods: Discover the behind-the-scenes dynamics as Pastor Joe elaborates on his collaboration with Pastor Mike Woods throughout the process. Gain insights into the shared vision, teamwork, and spiritual guidance that played a pivotal role in this transformative journey. The Rebirth of Elberta Church: Pastor Joe provides updates on the current status of the reborn church in Elberta. Learn about the thriving community, the impact on congregants, and the positive transformation experienced since The Point Church took over the reins. Taking on West Pensacola Baptist: Delve into the additional endeavors of The Point Church as they extend their mission to West Pensacola Baptist. Uncover the challenges faced, lessons learned, and the inspiring stories that have emerged from this expansion. Conclusion: Matt wraps up the episode with gratitude for Pastor Joe McClellan's insights and the inspiring journey of The Point Church. Don't miss this remarkable episode full of faith, community, and the power of collaboration. Contact Info Joe McClellan - [email protected] The Point Church - https://tothepoint.church/ Elberta Church - https://elbertachurch.com/ Resources Autopsy of a Deceased Church by Thom S. Rainer - https://www.amazon.com/Autopsy-Deceased-Church-Yours-Alive/dp/143368392X Credits Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/arend/lavender License code: ZIXQF4BKKOTTJFRX

Introduction: In this episode of The Last Service Podcast, your host Matt delves into an inspiring conversation with Pastor Mike Woods, the final pastor of First Baptist Church, Elberta, Alabama. Join us as Pastor Mike unravels the remarkable story of how his congregation made a profound decision to donate their cherished building to another congregation. Discover the heartwarming journey of collaboration, unity, and shared mission as Pastor Mike worked hand-in-hand with the pastors of The Point Church. 3 Takeaways for Dying Churches:  Every church needs a realistic self-image. FBE accomplished this through self-assessment tools. FBE recognized what they need to do to serve their community, but also saw that they were no longer capable. Mike and FBE made selfless decisions at the end of their church's life cycle to serve their community and the Gospel. Key Highlights: The Decision: Pastor Mike takes us back to the pivotal moment when the members of First Baptist Church, Elberta, Alabama, made the decision to donate their beloved church building. Learn about the profound motivations and the collective spirit that led to this selfless act of generosity. Building Bridges: Dive into the behind-the-scenes narrative of how Pastor Mike, alongside the leadership of The Point Church, crafted a seamless transition plan. Explore the challenges they faced, the solutions they devised, and the lessons learned in fostering a true sense of unity and community. Creating a Family of Faith: Pastor Mike shares the heartwarming details of the collaboration with The Point Church, emphasizing the creation of a family-like bond among the congregations. Discover how they overcame differences, celebrated similarities, and embarked on a shared mission to continue spreading the message of faith and love. Lessons for Congregations Everywhere: Gain insights from Pastor Mike on the valuable lessons learned through this unique journey. Whether you're a church leader, member, or part of any community organization, this episode provides practical wisdom on fostering collaboration, unity, and a common mission. Conclusion: Join Matt in this deeply moving episode as he explores the incredible story of First Baptist Church, Elberta, Alabama, and their journey of selfless giving, unity, and common purpose. Pastor Mike Woods' insights and experiences offer a beacon of inspiration for anyone seeking to build stronger, more connected communities. Don't miss out on this enlightening and heartwarming episode on The Last Service Podcast! Resources Autopsy of a Deceased Church: 12 Ways to Keep Yours Alive by Thom S. Rainer - https://www.amazon.com/Autopsy-Deceased-Church-Yours-Alive/dp/143368392X Credits Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/arend/lavender License code: ZIXQF4BKKOTTJFRX

In this episode, Claire Bamberg shares wisdom learned from helping many congregations find a path forward. We learn about her process to guide churches in letting go of the past and embracing a new beginning. She is the founder of Potentials Customized Coaching and Consulting. 3 Takeaways for Dying Churches: Churches must often die to bring about a new life of ministry. The new can't begin until the old church has been mourned and grieved. Pastors, coaches, and consultants can't help a dying church by bringing a preconceived solution.  They will not be accepted. The path forward must come from the church members. Claire believes that mergers rarely work because it implies that one congregation is acquiring another. She prefers the term consolidation in which all parties contribute their unique resources. She is an ordained minister, licensed mental health professional, certified mediator, professional certified coach (PCC, ICF), a systems and developmental theory expert, and consultant, She has worked with businesses, congregations, corporate structures, and individuals, internationally and domestically. Whether supporting a structural reorganization, teaching pastoral skills in a seminary, serving as the Executive Director of a nonprofit organization, or providing professional coaching support to executives, pastors, groups and teams, she loves facilitating growth and change towards new awareness, innovation, new beginnings and leadership development. Her work focuses on congregational consolidations, vitality initiatives, conflict transformation, structural and strategic planning, and training the next generation of skilled professional coaches. Resources mentioned in this episode: Potentials Customized Coaching and Consulting: https://potentials.us/ margaretwheatley.com Credits Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/arend/lavender License code: ZIXQF4BKKOTTJFRX  

In this insightful episode of The Last Service Podcast, Matt sits down with Pastor Stephen Gray, the esteemed author of "Legacy Churches." Join us as we delve into the pages of Pastor Gray's book and explore his profound insights on the challenges and triumphs of legacy churches. 3 Takeaways for Dying Churches: No individual local church lasts forever. Ending is not failing God. Existing without serving the Gospel is failure. Pastors are not called to be private Chaplains to a dying congregation.  Pastors should challenge their congregations to decide how to best use their resources for the Great Commission. Considering a church building to be a Sacred Space is reminiscent of the Temple model of worship in the Old Testament. 📚 **Featured Guest: Pastor Stephen Gray** - Get ready for an engaging conversation with Pastor Stephen Gray, a seasoned pastor and the author of the impactful book "Legacy Churches."  🏛️ **Exploring Legacy Churches** - Pastor Gray provides profound insights into the unique challenges and opportunities faced by legacy churches. Discover the wisdom that comes from decades of experience in shepherding congregations and fostering spiritual growth. 🎙️ **Real-World Experience Helping Churches Close** - One of the highlights of the episode is Pastor Stephen Gray sharing his real-world experience in helping churches navigate the challenging process of closure. Gain valuable insights into the compassionate and practical aspects of closing a church, a topic rarely discussed openly. 📌 **Episode Highlights:** - Insights into why churches close and why they avoid closing. - Real-world experience helping churches navigate closure. - Key takeaways from Pastor Stephen Gray's book, "Legacy Churches." Pastor Stephen Gray's insights and experiences are sure to leave a lasting impact on both clergy and congregants alike. Subscribe now for more engaging content on navigating the evolving landscape of faith and spirituality. Stephen Gray's book "Legacy Churches" is available on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Legacy-Churches-Stephen-Gray/dp/1889638781/ref=sr_1_1?crid=CBLDPI8VQ1PE&keywords=legacy+churches&qid=1706487065&sprefix=legacy+churches%2Caps%2C121&sr=8-1] or by emailing us a [email protected] Credits Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/arend/lavender License code: ZIXQF4BKKOTTJFRX

COMING SOON: The Last Service Podcast explores the narratives of American churches that have closed, consolidated, or merged. It's a celebration of good endings, enduring legacies, and the courage to embrace new beginnings. Join us as we delve into the lives of these churches, sharing stories that resonate with wisdom, and a commitment to ending well. Every episode is a testament to the hope that lies in finishing with grace, faith, and a sense of the bigger story God is writing. Subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and stay tuned for our first episodes coming soon! If you've been a part of a church closing or consolidation, I want to hear your story. Reach out to us at [email protected], and let your testimony be a source of inspiration for others navigating similar paths.