Two Priests on the Patio

In this opening episode of a new season, recorded from a more intimate home setting, we explore a timely and deeply spiritual question: What does it mean to be awake in a world where everything is connected? As spring unfolds and Earth Day invites reflection, we move beyond a once-a-year awareness toward a deeper recognition—that every day is an opportunity to encounter the sacred woven into creation. Drawing from Celtic and Franciscan spirituality, we reflect on a theology rooted not in separation, but in original blessing—a vision of the world as inherently good, alive, and shimmering with divine presence. This conversation invites us to rediscover ourselves not as observers or rulers of creation, but as participants in a living, relational whole—where God is not distant, but present in and through all things.

Two Priests on the Patio | Season 3 Finale  "Thank heavens there is no Hell!"   In this episode, Canon Sue-Ann and Ven Jeff explore evolving Christian perspectives on hell, emphasizing love, compassion, and metaphor over literalism, while discussing faith, suffering, societal responsibility, and inclusive spirituality grounded in Christ’s teachings. What did you grow up believing about hell? And does it still hold up? Together they unpack how hell has been used as a tool of fear, control, and exclusion across Christian traditions. They explore how even recent popes have moved away from hell as a literal place, reframing it instead as a chosen separation from God. This is a raw, honest, and often funny conversation about doubt, growth, and what it truly means to follow a faith rooted in good news,  not fear. Plus: a heartfelt send-off to Season 3, gratitude for producer Jim at Music Box in Bronte, and a preview of what's coming next (hint: it involves sex, AI, and science). Show Notes Hosts: Reverend Canon Sue Ann Ward The Venerable Jeff Ward Shea Marville (co-host/interviewer) Producer: Jim @ Music Box, Bronte (Lakeshore, Oakville) a one-of-a-kind gem currently surviving construction! Topics Covered: Hell across Christian traditions — How Jeff's journey through Southern Baptist, United Church, and Roman Catholic faith shaped very different understandings of hell, judgment, and purgatory The Catholic "waiting room" — A deep dive into purgatory: what it means, who it affects, and why it's absent from Anglican teaching Sue Ann's evolution — Growing up believing only Christians went to heaven (meaning Gandhi and the Dalai Lama were condemned), and why she's completely rethought that What do the popes actually think? — Both John Paul II and Francis have described hell not as a place, but as a state of mind, the self-chosen separation from God Mortal vs. venial sins — Breaking down Catholic teachings on sin categories and why they left people feeling trapped and afraid Hell as a tool of tribalism — Why "in or out" theology may be driving people away from church, and the psychology of needing black-and-white certainty The gospel as good news — A passionate reminder that gospel literally means good news — and eternal burning isn't that Why people leave the church — The hosts get candid about how fear-based theology, exclusion, and rigid rules have pushed generations away What the church can offer — Community, service, connection, and a place to belong without fear of condemnation Coming next season — Conversations on sex, AI, and science A Note from the Hosts: "We love Christians of all denominations. We are not attacking any tradition, the different flavors of our faith are a beautiful thing. We simply share where our own journeys have brought us." Subscribe | Share | Send us your questions and ideas  Two Priests on the Patio — Where science meets soul

About This Episode In this special episode dedicated to women for International Women's Day, Reverend Canon Sue Ann Ward (Church of the Incarnation, Oakville) and the Venerable Jeff Ward (St. Cuthbert's Church, Oakville) takes on one of the church's most consequential and contested legacies: the misuse of scripture to diminish, shame, and silence women. Flying solo without producer Che Marville for the first time, Sue Ann and Jeff bring characteristic warmth, theological honesty, and a willingness to confess their own past missteps as they examine stories the church has too often gotten wrong.   What We Explore  The Myth of Eden: Why the story of Adam and Eve was never meant to be taken literally, what it actually says (and doesn't say) about Eve's role, and how the concept of "original sin"  largely shaped by Augustine has been layered onto scripture in ways that placed lasting blame on women. The Woman at the Well: A close re-reading of John 4 and the Samaritan woman Jesus meets at Jacob's well. Sue-Ann and Jeff unpack why this woman was likely a victim of circumstance, not moral failure, and why she may be one of the most faithful disciples in the entire gospel. The Woman Caught in Adultery: Where was the man? What does it tell us that he never appears in the story? It is also important to note that all the men who came out to stone the woman left in shame when Jesus challenged their self-righteousness. Mary Magdalene: A disciple who stayed at the cross, who ran to the tomb, who was the first witness to the resurrection and who has been falsely characterized as a prostitute for centuries, based on nothing in scripture. The Real-World Stakes: The conversation grounds itself in present-day consequences: human trafficking (93% of Canadian victims are women), gendered attacks on female politicians, and the #MeToo movement as a marker of slow, incomplete progress.   Key Takeaways "Original sin" and "the fall" do not appear in the Genesis 2-3 text. These were theological additions made much later. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2-3 are two different creation stories  and Genesis 1 ends with God calling humanity very good. Jesus, in encounter after encounter, treated women with dignity, engaged them as intellectual equals, and revealed himself first to a foreign woman at a well not to his inner circle of male disciples in John’s Gospel. Better scripture interpretation isn't just an academic exercise. It has direct consequences for how women are treated in families, communities, and institutions.   Come for the theology, stay for the spiritual nourishment. Peace and blessings to you. St Cuthbert's Anglican Church 1541 Oakhill Drive, Oakville, ON L6J 1Y6 Church: 905-844-6200 www.stcuthbertoakville.ca   Church of the Incarnation incarnationchurch.ca Anglican church in Oakville, ON 1240 Old Abbey Lane, Oakville ON L6M3Y4   Called to Life Compelled to Love  

What happens when following your calling means losing your community? In this raw and revealing conversation, married Anglican priests Sue Ann Warren and Jeff Ward open up about the price they paid for answering God's call, leaving the Roman Catholic Church, facing friends who thought they were going to hell, and coming home to "prayer gifts" urging them to "snap out of it." Twenty-five years later, they're still unpacking what it means to choose faith over belonging, and why so many Christians have traded Jesus' actual teachings for something far more dangerous.   Provocative Questions Raised  What does it cost to answer a calling that your community can't accept? Can you truly access Jesus in any denomination, or do some structures create more barriers than pathways? When did Christians start weaponizing scripture instead of following Jesus' example? Is physical presence becoming a radical act of resistance in our digital age? Why do we clutch the Ten Commandments while ignoring the Beatitudes? What would Jesus actually do about immigration, guns, and who we lock up?   Why This Episode Matters At a time when Christian nationalism is rising, when faith is being weaponized for political gain, and when the loudest voices claiming Jesus seem furthest from his actual teachings, Sue Ann and Jeff offer something rare: a faith that cost them something real. They didn't just change denominations. They lost friends who thought they were going to hell. They received anonymous "pray for you" packages. They had to explain to their teenagers why following God meant financial uncertainty. And twenty-five years later, they're still asking the hard questions about what Jesus actually taught versus what modern Christianity has become. This isn't a gentle, comfortable religion. This is faith with teeth. Connect With Two Priests on the Patio For more conversations between science and soul, subscribe to Two Priests on the Patio wherever you get your podcasts. Come as you are. Question everything. Love bigger. Content Warning: This episode discusses religious trauma, loss of community, grief, and contemporary politics through a Christian lens.  

In this episode of Two Priests on the Patio, Che Marville sits down with Reverend Canon Sue-Anne Warren and the Venerable Jeff Ward to explore Chapter 15 of Dr Lisa Miller’s The Awakened Mind: Awakened Connection, a chapter that bridges spirituality, neuroscience, and the deep human need for belonging. Together, they unpack emerging evidence from brain scans, prayer studies, and consciousness research that suggests we are far more interconnected than we realise. From synchronised brain waves during communal prayer to indigenous healing practices, the conversation explores how love, intention, and spiritual awareness strengthen the brain, protect against depression and anxiety, and renew the human spirit. The priests reflect on the long-standing tension between science and religion, why that divide was created by people rather than scripture, and how modern physics and psychology are now confirming ancient teachings about unity, compassion, and community. They also address the painful truth that many people feel disconnected from, or harmed by, institutional religion, and speak directly to listeners who may distrust the church but long for spiritual grounding. Through stories of young men transformed by love-based spiritual practice and examples of community initiatives such as Wonder Walks, meditation groups, and intergenerational support circles, they illustrate how intentional connection heals both the giver and the receiver. The episode moves from theory to practice:  Why altruism improves mental health  How prayer benefits both the one who prays and the one being prayed for  Why humans need physical presence, touch, and real-world community  How COVID reshaped ministry into global hybrid spiritual spaces  What it truly means to “love your neighbour as yourself” when self-love feels distant At its core, this conversation is a reminder that we are held together by a flow of love and that when we act with openness, presence, and compassion, we strengthen not only ourselves but the entire field of connection we share. A tender, illuminating, grounded dialogue for anyone wondering how to belong, how to heal, and how to awaken to the sacred in a complicated world.   Come for the theology, stay for the spiritual nourishment. Peace and blessings to you. St Cuthbert's Anglican Church 1541 Oakhill Drive, Oakville, ON L6J 1Y6 Church: 905-844-6200 www.stcuthbertoakville.ca   Church of the Incarnation incarnationchurch.ca Anglican church in Oakville, ON 1240 Old Abbey Lane, Oakville ON L6M3Y4   Called to Life Compelled to Love

In this episode of Two Priests on the Patio, host Che Marville shifts the format to focus on a single powerful question from the growing community of listeners. Rev. Jeff Ward reads aloud a beautifully articulated letter from Jasmine, who asks what many women have wrestled with: How can I practice Christianity when so much of the language and imagery feels male-centred? How do I find God beyond the patriarchy? Jeff and Rev. Sue Ann Ward respond with remarkable honesty and theological depth, acknowledging that while humans wrote the Bible in patriarchal contexts, Jesus himself consistently overturned the gender hierarchies of his time. From the woman at the well to the unnamed women throughout scripture, Jesus modelled radical inclusivity and treated women as precious souls even when the gospel writers didn't wholly lean into this revolutionary aspect of his ministry. The conversation explores crucial distinctions between what's literal and what's parable in scripture, why Paul gets quoted more than Jesus (and why that's problematic), and how translation and interpretation have shaped our understanding of divine language. Sue Ann offers a stunning reframe: God is neither male nor female but contains all attributes, creativity, nurturing, protection, challenge, comfort, and strength. The episode moves into profound territory about reconciliation, resurrection, forgiveness, and the contemplative practices that allow us to experience God beyond human constructs. Sue Ann shares how Buddhism and yoga renewed her Christian faith through meditation, while Jeff emphasizes that Jesus came to live for us, not just die for us, teaching us how to heal broken relationships and be reborn in our own lives. This episode is for anyone who: has felt excluded by religious language, wrestles with the patriarchal framing of faith traditions, seeks a more whole and healing relationship with God, or wonders if Christianity can speak to women's lived experience right now. A powerful invitation: The hosts encourage more listeners to send questions like Jasmine's rich prompts that create space for honest, necessary conversations about faith in the modern world. Come for the theology, stay for the spiritual nourishment. Peace and blessings to you. St Cuthbert's Anglican Church 1541 Oakhill Drive, Oakville, ON L6J 1Y6 Church: 905-844-6200 www.stcuthbertoakville.ca   Church of the Incarnation incarnationchurch.ca Anglican church in Oakville, ON 1240 Old Abbey Lane, Oakville ON L6M3Y4   Called to Life Compelled to Love

In this episode of Two Priests on the Patio, host Che Marville continues the journey with Reverend Canon Sue Ann Ward and the Venerable Jeff Ward to explore how this podcast came to be and the origins of "Two Priest on the Patio".  Drawing on inspiration from Dr. Lisa Miller's groundbreaking work "The Awakened Brain" and John Fugelsang's book "Separation of Church and Hate" Whether you're in the wilderness or on the path back to yourself, you are not alone. Peace and blessings to you. St Cuthbert's Anglican Church 1541 Oakhill Drive, Oakville, ON L6J 1Y6 Church: 905-844-6200   www.stcuthbertoakville.ca Church of the Incarnation incarnationchurch.ca Anglican church in Oakville, ON 1240 Old Abbey Lane, Oakville ON L6M3Y4 Called to Life Compelled to Love

Inspired by The Awakened Brain by Dr. Lisa Miller   In this soul-stirring episode of The Awakening with Two Priests,  Hosted by Reverend Canon Sue Anne Ward and Venerable Jeff Ward have a robust conversation inspired by Chapter 14 of Lisa Miller’s The Awakened Brain. Together, they explore the sacred practice of awakened attention and the art of listening for the divine voice within us amid the chaos of modern life. From the story of Walter and his spiritual awakening through the guidance of Howard Thurman, to reflections on synchronicity, setbacks, mental health, and the healing power of nature, this episode offers both comfort and clarity. You’ll hear intimate reflections on: The difference between the achieving mind and the listening soul How setbacks can redirect us toward a truer purpose The spiritual power of community and presence Meditation and prayer as everyday disciplines for inner peace Lisa Miller’s “Three Doors” practice to transform closed doors into sacred invitations This episode is a reminder that God often speaks in the stillness, and that when we slow down and pay attention, we might just hear the whisper of love, purpose, and awakening.   Peace and blessings to you. St Cuthbert's Anglican Church 1541 Oakhill Drive, Oakville, ON L6J 1Y6 Church: 905-844-6200 Cell: 905-617-9717 www.stcuthbertoakville.ca Called to Life   Compelled to Love

In this third episode of The Awakening with The Wards, host Che Marville continues the journey with Reverend Canon Sue Ann Ward and the Venerable Jeff Ward to explore how depression, despair, and even Loneliness can be doorways to more profound awakening.   Drawing from Dr. Lisa Miller's groundbreaking work The Awakened Brain, the conversation boldly addresses how the darker seasons of life, especially during midlife or transition, can guide us toward spiritual breakthroughs. Together, they examine the tension between achieving awareness and awakened awareness, and how society's obsession with performance often blinds us to our true purpose and peace.   This episode is a lifeline for anyone navigating sadness, isolation, or spiritual questioning. With vulnerability and wisdom, the trio speaks to the soul's innate need for connection, meaning, and love. Topics Include: Is depression always clinical, or can it be spiritual? Why midlife despair might be a sacred invitation The difference between achieving awareness and awakened awareness How altruism and service can heal us from within The relationship between forgiveness, compassion, and deep love What to do when you feel disconnected from faith or community Why spiritual practice isn't "woo" it's wired into us "God is our relationship."   Jeff & Sueanne Whether you're in the wilderness or on the path back to yourself, you are not alone.   Peace and blessings to you. St Cuthbert's Anglican Church 1541 Oakhill Drive, Oakville, ON L6J 1Y6 Church: 905-844-6200 Cell: 905-617-9717 www.stcuthbertoakville.ca Called to Life   Compelled to Love

In this deeply contemplative episode of The Awakening with The Wards, your host, Che Marville, is joined once again by the Venerable Jeff Ward and Reverend Canon Sue Anne Ward. Together, they explore the essence of prayer not just as ritual, but as a path to inner awakening and divine relationship.   What if you're already spiritual, just not religious? In this week's episode of The Awakening with The Wards, we talk about prayer, purpose, and why the soul needs connection now more than ever.     Grounded in the work of Dr. Lisa Miller's The Awakened Brain, the conversation uncovers how spiritual connection is not a luxury but a biological necessity, especially in a world marked by loneliness, anxiety, and disconnection.   From the origins of prayer to the power of ritual in mental health, and from the compassionate nature of the Gospels to the role of clergy in today's divided world, this episode offers a sanctuary of insight and presence. Whether you're new to faith, estranged from it, or a lifelong believer, this is a conversation that welcomes you precisely as you are.     Topics: What prayer truly is and what it's not Why even atheists cry out to God in crisis How the Gospels speak differently to us depending on life experience The difference between spirituality and religion How to begin again when faith feels distant Why acts of altruism are spiritual medicine   Come for the theology, stay for the spiritual nourishment. Peace and blessings to you. St Cuthbert's Anglican Church 1541 Oakhill Drive, Oakville, ON L6J 1Y6 Church: 905-844-6200 Cell: 905-617-9717 www.stcuthbertoakville.ca Called to Life   Compelled to Love

We are introducing a new series called Awakening with the Wards, it is inspired by the work of Dr. Lisa Miller, and we are using her book, The Awakened Brain, to look at the relationship between spirituality and science. Our mission is to help and serve through the Christian faith.   Peace and blessings to you.