Unstoppable Mindset

A narrowing field of vision became the very thing that sharpened Michael Ison’s purpose. In this conversation, I talk with author, ghostwriter, and educator Michael Ison about growing up in a large Appalachian family, living with retinitis pigmentosa, and learning how to prepare for a future with less sight but more determination. Michael shares how watching his father struggle with blindness shaped his own approach to vision loss, why acceptance matters more than denial, and how a white cane transformed his independence. We also explore the power of storytelling, the value of education around blindness, and how writing memoirs helps people connect with the human experience. Michael’s honesty, humility, and willingness to learn offer a powerful reminder that fear doesn't have to define the path ahead. Highlights: 01:33 - Growing up in Appalachia shaped Michael’s work ethic and resilience. 08:14 - A return visit to Kentucky revealed the power of kindness and community. 20:02 - Accepting vision loss early makes adaptation easier and more effective. 26:51 - Using a white cane increased both independence and confidence. 46:09 - Fear became motivation to prepare for life with less vision. 56:46 - Ghostwriting allows powerful stories to reach and inspire others. About the Guest: As the ninth child of two hillbillies from the hollers of Appalachia, Michael fell in love with the overcomer’s story. His parents, Elijah and Jōssie Ison, attended school until eighth grade and then dropped out to make ends meet. Leaving the mountains behind for the hard-pressed pavement of Detroit, they bootstrapped it through life and raised ten children of their own accord. By the time Michael was born, their endemic poverty had been overcome by their upward ascent. They carved out a typical, middle-class living, despite their indigent roots and proclivity for reproduction. From their rags-to-regular story, Michael learned that we all don’t get a head start, but we all must start to get ahead. Elijah carved a niche in Michael’s psyche through his storytelling, as did Jōssie through her never-say-die loyalty. As a pillar in the church, Elijah often taught Bible stories with a giftedness that kept the members captivated. He specialized in teaching the younger generations. At home, he spoke of Dynamite Red’s lore—a feisty, red-haired child who created mischief like others left footprints—and Elijah spun those cautionary tales, magically keeping his children in stitches. Dynamite’s imaginary legacy lived on, even after Elijah passed, but beyond the stories and Elijah’s life, held fast the undying love of Elijah’s dear wife. Jōssie demonstrated a capacity for love that outlasted the sun. Despite her children’s tireless shenanigans or her husband’s long-time dementia, her undying hope for them never burned out. She encouraged others through deeds, but not words, and wherever she went, she left a treasure trail of benevolence that whispered, “You can always come home, and you can count on me to never leave.” Those characteristics never let Michael go.   During his childhood, Michael gained an insatiable interest in sports and stories. His favorite comic strip, Peanuts, combined both loves. He identified with Charlie Brown, who, though he was a stupendously horrible athlete, was an indomitable character. Michael, on the other hand, performed superbly in athletics. During his senior year of basketball, even though he attended one of the smallest high schools in Ohio and his team lost every game, he somehow got cut from the team and watched from the bleachers. Despite that minor setback, like Good Old Charlie Brown, Michael forged ahead, determined to write a success story. At a tiny college in Nashville, Tennessee, he studied English and Bible and completed his four-year degree in merely eleven. After that, he continued working in the distribution industry while becoming a single father of three. Then, he achieved a dream. For nearly two decades, he’d set his sights on teaching English Language Arts, and in the fall of 2013, he began his second career at Northwest High School in Justin, Texas, finally hitting the bullseye. In the summer of 2016, another dream came true. Michael completed his first novel, Granted, and told the story of a man’s search for redemption. After self-publishing that novel, a colleague asked if he’d consider ghostwriting. Devoid of failure’s shortsightedness, Michael gave it a shot: The worst thing he could do was miss. Ten books later, Michael considers ghostwriting a success, for more than one reason. Not only does he tell stories, but he also captures others’ visions despite his blindness. That’s the plot twist. In 2006, Michael was diagnosed with retinitis pigmentosa, and that loss inspired him. He returned to college. He finished his degree. He became a teacher. His eyesight waned. Accepting the challenge to ghostwrite was another step in that direction. As was leaving education and becoming a full-time entrepreneur. Each step Michael took proved to himself and others that adversity is an opportunity in disguise. Even the thirty thousand steps he took running a marathon. Sometimes, those with no vision have the best perspective. Michael has authored/coauthored twelve books, spoken internationally, and works with educators and leaders, positioning their experiences to promote powerful life changes. As an indispensable thought partner, he helps clients discover the presence that makes breakthroughs in their lives and yours. That story is not finished. Ways to connect with Michael: www.linkedin.com/in/michael-ison-a43a0023a https://michaeldaleison.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

The lessons that shape us often come from the places we never planned to go and the challenges we never expected to face. In this conversation, I speak with Eric Fisher about the experiences that shaped his approach to mental wellness, resilience, grief, and personal growth. Eric shares how martial arts taught him balance, self-control, and perseverance, and how those lessons now help him guide people through addiction recovery, relationship challenges, and life’s hardest moments. We explore the realities of grief, the power of trust, the difference between inpatient and outpatient counseling, and why healing often begins with self-acceptance. Eric also discusses his books, including The Martial Art of Recovery and Buried Alive, revealing how personal experiences and family stories continue to shape his work. If you've ever faced loss, adversity, addiction, or the challenge of rebuilding after setbacks, I believe you will find both practical insights and encouragement in Eric’s story. Highlights: 08:10 - Eric shares lessons learned from his FBI internship experience. 18:43 - A friend's crisis leads Eric and his wife to move to New Zealand. 23:38 - Martial arts becomes a foundation for recovery and mental wellness. 37:05 - Eric reflects on grief, loss, and the importance of support. 43:12 - Self-acceptance plays a critical role in addiction recovery. 50:26 - Couples learn to face problems together instead of against each other. About the Guest: Eric Fisher, a Canadian transplant, is a counselling therapist who resides in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Originally from Tennessee, he has over 15 years of experience working outpatient and inpatient treatment settings in the US and Canada. He has two books published at this time: The Martial Art of Recovery: Self-Mastery Practices to Subdue Addiction and Achieve Mental Wellness, and Buried Alive: Four Ways to Free Yourself from the Dirt. Eric is a master practitioner of Accelerated Resolution Therapy (ART) and is also trained in EyeMovement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR), both of which are evidence-based treatments for trauma. Eric's private practice, Recovery Arts Counselling, serves individuals, couples, and families both locally and remotely. In the past, Eric has supervised masters-level graduate students and counsellors early in their careers. He has won multiple awards for his screenwriting: The Departure - official finalist in biographical/historical genre - 2014 Beverly Hills Screenplay Contest. Only 16 Miles - Finalist - 2014 Horror Screenplay Contest. Universal Escapade (Finalist - Top 25) - WeScreenplay International Screenplay Competition. Hipster Z (co-written) - best feature screenplay - 2017 Action On Film International Film Festival. Hipster Z - Best horror/comedy Screenplay - 2017 International Horror Hotel Film Fest. Additionally, Eric has a black belt in two martial arts styles: American Kenpo and Wadō-ryū. One interesting thing about Eric is that he had the opportunity to be an intern with the FBI -- twice. Eric enjoys hiking and riding his bike outdoors, music concerts, tasting new food dishes to keep his taste buds guessing, travelling near and far, and meeting people. . Ways to connect with Eric: Website: https://www.recoveryartscounselling.com Linktree:  https://linktr.ee/ericfisherauthor  Instagram - @recoveryartscounselling - https://www.instagram.com/recoveryartscounselling/ @ericfisherwriter - https://www.instagram.com/ericfisherwriter Linkedin - Eric Fisher - www.linkedin.com/in/eric-m-fisher-5b83724a Facebook - Recovery Arts Counselling - https://www.facebook.com/RecoveryArtsCounselling About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:03 One of the biggest things holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe. Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingson, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hello there, everyone. I am your host Michael Hinkson, and you have found the Unstoppable Mindset Podcast. Today, we get to chat with Eric Fisher, who is a rather interesting person. I believe he's a counseling therapist, he's a transplant, he now lives in Calgary, but he used to live in Tennessee, very similar. I'm sure we'll have to find out more about that, but I'm really glad that that you're here with us. Eric, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. Eric Fisher  01:29 Yes, thank you for having me on, Michael. I appreciate it. Glad to be here. Michael Hingson  01:32 Well, I'm going to have to ask, how did you get from Tennessee to Calgary, besides by Claire? But you know, but Speaker 1  01:41 it's a bit to make a long story short. The wife, you know, yeah, she's from Calgary originally, so I surrendered up here. Michael Hingson  01:52 Yeah, well, is there a backstory that you want to tell? Speaker 1  01:57 You know, the quick version would be from Mississippi to New Zealand to Calgary, and that was over a span of, you know, two and a half years, and then finally to Calgary. After those other two places, was she Michael Hingson  02:10 with you during all of those? Mississippi, New Zealand, and then Calgary. Speaker 1  02:14 She was for the long haul. Yeah, yeah, she's experienced humidity and the dryness, all the extremes. Michael Hingson  02:24 When we moved to New Jersey in 1996 my wife didn't really want to go. She was a California native, but it was where the job had to take me, and it was either that or go find a new job, and I really didn't want to undertake a job search, because that's pretty traumatic. So, especially if you happen to be blind, because people think blind people really can't do stuff, and that's why the unemployment rate among employable blind people is in the 70% range. So the bottom line is that we moved to New Jersey, we were there for six years, and then of course the World Trade Center happened, which is kind of a dramatic way to allow us to get back to California, but it worked, so here we are. Speaker 1  03:05 Yeah, that is a lot of different places, and it's unfortunate with that percentage, right? Michael Hingson  03:10 Yeah, well, and she passed. She was in a wheelchair her whole life, and she passed in November of 2022 We were married 40 years, and I'm sure she's monitoring me from somewhere, so I work on continuing to be a good kid, because if I'm not, I'm going to hear about it somehow, Speaker 1  03:27 one way or another. There's, there's still some surveillance happening. There Michael Hingson  03:31 is, I am absolutely sure of it. Well, tell us kind of about the early era growing up, and all that. Speaker 1  03:37 Grew up in Arkansas, yeah, Newport, Arkansas, you know, grew up behind a Walmart in a small subdivision, and moved to Tennessee at an early age. I was around five years old, going over, going on six at the time, I believe, and so I understand what it means to kind of get uprooted from somewhere and place somewhere else, and my dad was in the medical profession, so that's the reason that we moved, and so that's a little bit about that. My mom's family is from Kansas City, so I really did enjoy going up to the city there and being with my mom's family during holiday seasons. That was really my only exposure to, like, a city, like an urban population, more than what I experienced anywhere else. So, and yeah, got one brother, played with him a lot, and a lot of it was being creative outside, getting outside and doing stuff, and having fun outside, you know, little bit different from a lot of kids today, perhaps. Michael Hingson  04:44 Yeah, well, it's also a lot scarier, I think, today, even though there's a lot of value in being outside. There are just so many crazy things going on. It's got to be scarier for kids, and certainly even more scary for parents, and they tend. To want to really monitor their, their children a lot more, and that's got us pluses, minuses, but it still has got to be really scary to let them just go outside. Speaker 1  05:09 Yeah, just, you know, looking at what's on the news and the possibilities of what could happen. Michael Hingson  05:16 Yeah, so where did you, or did you go to college? I assume you went to college. Speaker 1  05:22 I did. Yeah, I went to a small private Christian university in Tennessee called Freed Hardiman, and you know it was interesting because there's this whole thing about townies versus us being called freedies because of Freed Hardman. The course, the joke is, you know, free hardly because of the expense of going to the institution. Yeah. Michael Hingson  05:48 Well, with your experience and your observation in life, what do you think about going to a small college as opposed to a larger college? Speaker 1  05:55 I really enjoyed it, being from a rural area. I mean, it was a good transition for me, and just getting to know people I feel like might have been easier in a more rural setting, as opposed to urban. Michael Hingson  06:10 I went to University of California, Irvine, way back, starting in 1968 and when we started at UCI, there were like 25 2600 students, and I think when I graduated with my bachelor's, it was like a little over 3000 students, but I loved the fact that it was a smaller college. I think it was for me a lot better, and I, I really like the smaller college environment, and I understand why colleges have advantages when they're bigger, but by the same token, for students, if you want to really stand out, it's kind of harder to do with a big college. Well, and now University of California, Irvine, where I went to school, has 32,000 undergrads in it, Speaker 1  06:52 32,000 as opposed to the around, that's a huge jump from like 25 2600 yeah, Michael Hingson  07:00 yeah, and so it's, it's a huge place. I was there last a year and a half ago. I was invited to join. I couldn't do it as an as a student because the chapter was formed just as I was leaving, but Phi Beta Kappa, and they heard about me along the way, and I was invited to join as an alumni member back in 2024 So that's the last time I've been to UC Irvine. What a huge place! Speaker 1  07:29 Wow, yeah. Of course, UC Michael Hingson  07:30 Irvine, UCI really stands for Under Construction Indefinitely, so you know Speaker 1  07:38 they make that, they made that kind of humorous remark up here, with like winter and construction, that's the two seasons of Calgary. Yes, I totally get that. Michael Hingson  07:47 My brother-in-law lives in Sun Valley, Idaho, in Ketchum, and has been a skier for most of his life, and in the summer he's a master cabinet maker. Now he's a general contractor, but he's thinking about retiring, but in the winter everything goes by the wayside for skiing, Speaker 1  08:10 everyone's out on the slopes, you know. Well, and what he did Michael Hingson  08:12 to even make it more fun is he got his professional ski guide status in Europe and became a professional ski guide, taking people to do off-piece skiing in the French Alps, which is, Speaker 1  08:25 that's really nice, awesome. Michael Hingson  08:28 I love to, I love to say that I'm not gonna go skiing, because I know those trees are out to try to get me. Speaker 1  08:35 They start to grow their branches, you know? They just spring Michael Hingson  08:38 out at you when you're not looking. Speaker 1  08:40 Yes, I just.. Michael Hingson  08:42 I've never skied. I don't have anything against it. It's just not one of those things that I've done, but he enjoys it, and I'm sure it's a lot of fun to do. Speaker 1  08:51 Yeah, I can appreciate people that do. Michael Hingson  08:53 Yeah. Well, what did you do after college? Well, you got your undergrad, then you went on. Speaker 1  08:58 Yeah, so after my undergrad, I stayed at the university, and you know, I had a bachelor's in psych, and I was like, well, what do I do with this degree? And so I decided to move forward, since I didn't see too much availability, and did a master's in clinical mental health counseling, and during that time of my master's, I was able to intern with the FBI, which was a great opportunity. Michael Hingson  09:25 What caused you to do that? Speaker 1  09:28 I found, I mean, part of it was just a lot of curiosity, and of course, watching a lot of media and the work that they do. Yet I also found the possibility of implementing the psychology from a law enforcement angle on a federal level with this, so I did interning in my bachelor's FBI, that was really nice at a local office, and then later on in my master's at the FBI headquarters in DC, and just really interested in just the field and this the different. Psychological opportunities, Michael Hingson  10:02 you didn't stick with it, though. Or Speaker 1  10:05 I did the internships, I did the agent exam, and failed. Oh boy, just kind of had my time with it, and then moved on. It was a great experience. Michael Hingson  10:16 What you learned from it, the Speaker 1  10:19 importance of teamwork, the importance of community, the importance of intention to detail, and I can't say how I came to those, because then I have to bring up certain things that I can't talk about, but yeah, just the importance of being able to work with other people from other walks of life, and just seeing everyone's different perspectives is something that I learned, coming from, you know, small town, quite homogeneous, small university, and then being able to meet people from different parts of the country, even different territories, like Wall, it was, it was amazing to branch out and just have that life experience, Michael Hingson  11:06 get a lot of different experiences, and you saw how people in other parts of the world live, which obviously has to be an interesting perspective. Speaker 1  11:18 Yes, yes, it was really interesting, and just seeing how they think and their outlook on the world, and I had to take a polygraph examination for both internships, so the importance of honesty, and not that I didn't think honesty was important before, but definitely when you're under the microscope of being asked yes or no questions, it's an interesting experience. Michael Hingson  11:40 Yeah, well, I guess you must have passed the lie detector test. They didn't throw you away or put you in jail. Speaker 1  11:48 That's right. Neither of those happened. I did have one question asked of me that was a little bit ambiguous. It was coming up that I deceived. It's something that happened earlier in the day, and then they asked me about it, and then I said something that was not the truth, and then I explained the reasoning as to why. And then the agent was like, okay, thanks for letting me know, it's all good. It's like, okay, that's good. Michael Hingson  12:21 Yeah, they have to be pretty skilled interrogators to really be able to do that, and, and ask questions, and I, and I know no matter what's going on with the lie detector technology, they're observing you as well, so they're looking for things, and I suppose it's possible to fool the lie detector technology, but I know that it continues to get better too. Speaker 1  12:45 Yeah, and wondering if that's because, like, people are sociopaths, or they don't have any - they actually believe what they're saying. Yeah, yeah, Michael Hingson  12:54 I've never taken lie detector tests, but I know that for me, I'm not a good fibber, so I've got to tell the truth, and like I said, my wife's watching anyway, so I gotta always be a good kid. Speaker 1  13:06 If you were taking a lie detector test knuckle and you said something, you might get an invisible slap, like, oh, Michael Hingson  13:12 exactly, Speaker 2  13:13 okay, I get it, or Michael Hingson  13:16 a poke or something. Yeah, yeah, no. So, better, better to just be honest about it, but yeah, I understand what you're saying, but it is, it is fascinating. I'd love to experience taking a test sometime, but because I only understand all about it intellectually, having never seen it on television or anything like that, but by the same token, I'm glad that the technology exists, and I'm glad that the people do what they do, and I, I too very much believe in law enforcement. I believe in the value of the FBI and police, and so on. I took a couple of police-oriented courses when I was at UC Irvine. We had an engineering professor who was a reserve deputy sheriff, so we, we got to do ride-alongs, and even went down and visited the Orange County Jail once, and you know, because he, he said it all, so it's kind of fun to be able to do it, and I learned a lot and value that. Speaker 1  14:19 That's awesome. I'm glad you had that experience. Michael Hingson  14:21 Yeah, I think it's kind of cool to be able to have had that. So, you got a master's degree? Did you get a PhD? Speaker 1  14:29 No, you know, I was encouraged to do so, to pilot higher and deeper, as the PhD acronym goes. Yeah, and I just, I decided to not go that route. Michael Hingson  14:40 So, what did you do after you got your master's? Speaker 1  14:43 After the master's, I started to do well. I was doing my practicum during the master's, yet after the master's, I started to work primarily where I did my practicum in Mississippi and started actually doing counseling work. So I was doing what's called a mobile therapist. For this organization, where I would go to people's houses and speak with people, do counseling work, which was pretty cool. I got to be out in the community, meet a lot of folks, made confidentiality sometimes a little bit of a challenge, small town. And then two days a week I was in the office, doing whoever came in through the clinic, so I was in the, I was in the work, I was in the grind, just doing what I had been trained to do. Definitely learning on the job, though, for sure. Michael Hingson  15:27 Where in Mississippi, Speaker 1  15:29 Corinth, Mississippi, which is like right at the state line. Yeah, they actually have a road called State Line Road, where houses on one side, North or Tennessee houses on the other side have Mississippi license plates. Michael Hingson  15:45 That's pretty funny. In New Jersey, when we lived there, there were a number of streets in towns that had a very interesting environment, and that is that every town had its own tax base. There wasn't a statewide thing for property taxes and everything else, or for a lot of taxes, so every town had its own, and you could be on a street where someone may pay 1213, $14,000 a year in taxes, and if you lived on the other side of the street, you were in a different town, and your taxes were like 4800 $5,000 Speaker 1  16:24 Whoa, no, Michael Hingson  16:26 it's crazy. Speaker 1  16:27 That is a sheer difference. Michael Hingson  16:30 It is a huge difference, and the other thing that that we experienced is that a lot of the the work is done by lawyers when you're closing a house, for example. Back there, they didn't really have escrow, was all done through attorneys, and so on. And some of those people were involved in the tax stuff as well. It's kind of a very fascinating and interesting place to be, certainly different than what we experienced in California. Speaker 1  16:57 Yes, that sounds like a very, very different type of experience, for sure. Wow, wow. Okay, Michael Hingson  17:04 but you know things happen. Well, so you, you started doing counseling and therapy, and as you said, and I can appreciate how it must have been difficult sometimes from a confidentiality standpoint, because it is a small town and people overhear or talk about, and that's not always a good thing. Speaker 1  17:24 Yeah, you know, things like that come up. You know, you hear the whispers, and one time I was actually trying to find a place in a lower-income part of town, and I was doing circles in the neighborhood, and a police cruiser started to follow me, and so I stopped my car, got out with my credentials, towed the towed the police officer who I worked for, and then he was just kind of like, oh, okay, carry on. So, did Michael Hingson  17:46 you ask him for directions? Speaker 1  17:49 You know what, I did not know, like that would have made sense. I'm trying to look at find this house, never. Oh, over there, sir? Okay, but no, I did not. Michael Hingson  18:05 So, how long were you in Mississippi? Then Speaker 1  18:09 I was in Mississippi from around 2009 to 2013 I want to say, we left. We left for New Zealand for the whole year 2013 so no, 2012 sorry, the end of 2012 so about three and a half, three or so years. Okay, yeah. How did you Michael Hingson  18:33 meet your wife in all this Speaker 1  18:34 online? Yeah, back when it was clandestine, like you met somebody online, are they an ax murderer? Can you trust them? Do you need to get references, which she did. Yeah, yeah. And we checked you out, huh? She checked me out for sure. She even called people that I gave references for. And then we courted for two and a half years. And then after that, tied the knot in Tennessee, moved to Mississippi. Well, she moved to Mississippi, where I was already living, and yeah, we were there until we went to New Zealand about 10 months later. Michael Hingson  19:06 So she was living in Tennessee at the time, Speaker 1  19:09 she was up here in Calgary, or she was in Calgary. Michael Hingson  19:12 Okay, Speaker 1  19:12 we, we got married in Tennessee, Michael Hingson  19:14 okay. Well, that's that's cool though. What, what prompted the trip and moving to New Zealand for a year, I've been there, and I actually spent three weeks there, and very much enjoy it. Speaker 1  19:28 Whereabouts? Well, I wanted to ask, all over New Michael Hingson  19:30 Zealand, I mean, I was there with the Royal New Zealand Foundation of the Blind. They asked me to come and speak in 2003 talk about September 11, and so on, and they were trying to raise funds, so we helped them raise something like over $375,000 in a three week period, and literally I had 21 speaking events in 13 days all over both islands. Speaker 1  19:55 Wow, that's that's a, that's a lot of speaking events, and a certain amount of days. Days you've been, you probably been close more than I've been, more places than I've been. So, what, what prompted the move was a friend of mine I had made previously being there. He reached out to me through just electronic media. He was having a spiritual emergency, and he asked me, he asked me to come to come help him, and so I just said, "Sure, let's do it. My wife and I left the rental unit, the rental house where we were staying, and left furniture behind, two cars behind, appliances, and we just, just left him, or there for 13 months, didn't look, didn't look back. Michael Hingson  20:45 Did you spend any time in Dunedin while you were there? Speaker 1  20:49 We didn't spend any time in Dunedin. We weren't only there for like a week when we did some vacation time. Michael Hingson  20:57 Yeah, I, they gave me literally a half, three quarters of a day off from speaking. In fact, they said you can play in Dunedin, and so we were there, and it was one, I guess, was a one full day. They had some unique toys to play with in New Zealand. They had a thing called a bungee rocket. Have you ever heard of that? Speaker 1  21:22 A bungee rocket. No. So, Michael Hingson  21:24 you know what bungee cords are, and you stretch them out and all that. Well, the bungee rocket, you attach bungee cords to this platform, this cage, but the bungee cords are attached to a device way up high, and then they're also attached to this plat, this cage, then they pull the cage down, and they fasten it, so the bungee cords are very stretched, and then people get in, and they sit down, and they fasten seat belts, and then when everybody's all secure, they loose the platform, and the bungee cords pull this thing up like a rocket. Speaker 1  22:01 Whoa, yeah. I wasn't about to do that. I was with someone who Michael Hingson  22:05 did, and he came off apparently as white as a sheet. He said, "I'm never gonna do that. Speaker 1  22:10 It was a one and done experience for him. It was Michael Hingson  22:16 for me. It was, "I'm not gonna do that, brother. And I had my guide dog, and somebody would have held the dog, but I wouldn't do that. I have other memories, which are more fun, I think, and probably for me more pleasurable. Speaker 1  22:31 Yeah, one of the things we did down on the South Island was some knife making, and it was really.. it was something I surprised my family with. They didn't know we were doing that day, and this guy was hilarious. I mean, something straight out of a documentary about New Zealand, as far as, like, locals, you would see he had a witty sense of humor, and he would, he would like, finish off the knives for us after we did the preliminary steps, just to make them look nice. Yeah, that was one of my favorite memories down there. Michael Hingson  23:00 Wow, yeah, I've, I've got a lot of memories, even though it was back in 2003 so 22 years, 22 and a half years, but I love the memories, and love being down there was a wonderful place, Speaker 1  23:13 awesome, so that was pretty cool. Well, so you, you came back, and, and you eventually ended up in, in Calgary, which is, which is great. So, what do you do now? Got a few hands in a few honey jars. I have a private practice for the counseling. I work for a retreat center company out of a place called Brad Creek, called Vita Wellness. I work for a nonprofit up in a place called Erdrie as a consultant. I work for a clinic remotely that's in the city as an associate. Am I forgetting anything? I think that's the main ones right now. Also, work doing like couples therapy for a relationship-based app. Yeah, so that's a lot of people that are in the States, there. So, it's yeah, few things to keep me busy. Speaker 3  24:13 If you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the unstoppable mindset community, Michael Hingson  24:47 they do well. You also write Speaker 1  24:50 that as well. Yeah, Michael Hingson  24:52 you've written a couple of books, and I guess you've also done some screenwriting and all that, and love to hear more about all that. Tell. You bought your books. Speaker 1  25:01 Yeah, the first book that I published, self-published, and that was two years ago now. That was called, that is called The Martial Art of Recovery: Self Mastery Practices to Subdue Addiction and Achieve Mental Wellness. Say three times real fast. So, yeah, that book is all about the intersection of martial arts concepts with addiction and mental health treatment, so that has personal experiences, and my times in the martial arts, and also I just bring in like holistic health techniques, and also I get some interviews, some of them are a little bit shorter than others, but at least some some chunks from people that I know in different disciplines, different fields, like an old martial arts teacher, a medicine family medicine doctor here in the Calgary area, people like that. So that was that was about a 14 month writing experience before it was published. Michael Hingson  25:57 When was it published? Speaker 1  26:00 Back in March of 2023 Michael Hingson  26:05 Okay, not your first book. Speaker 1  26:07 Not that's my first book. Yes, Michael Hingson  26:09 yeah, Speaker 2  26:10 yeah. Michael Hingson  26:12 What do you, what do you think of being an author and the whole experience of writing? Speaker 1  26:19 There was not. there was a lack of faith, for sure. I had a really difficult time, even acknowledging, "Hey, this is something I could do. Had a lot of self-doubt, and so even the process I found pretty daunting, pretty, like pretty challenging, for sure. And I do enjoy the process. It's like a double helix, though. I, I enjoy it, yet it kind of puts the screws to me, as far as enjoyment, but also challenge, yet I do enjoy the experience and being able to get my voice out there, yet I listen to someone else talk about publishing, and the person said, you know what, when you publish it, now it's that person's turn to take it on and they can make it their own, Michael Hingson  27:04 yeah. Speaker 1  27:04 So I found that to be a really cool way to look at it. So yeah, and I enjoy it. It's been, it's been good, it's been fun. Michael Hingson  27:13 And then you wrote a second book, Speaker 1  27:15 I did. Yeah, that one's called Buried Alive: Four Ways to Free Yourself from the Dirt. It's a lot more personal, I think, because it is about a true story that happened to my dad, and something that was quite harrowing for him, which, yes, as the book title suggests, is what happened, and part of the book is about the interviews I did with the three men involved with this very scary incident back in February of 2000 so 25 years now, and talks about their different perspectives on what happened that day when they were digging for Native American artifacts, arrowheads, and I bring in some self-help concepts that apply to what happened that day, and also just for anyone that's looking to bring those into their own lives, Michael Hingson  28:03 what happened? Speaker 1  28:05 Yeah, so they were digging at what's called an overhang, which is like a cliff face that shuts out small little, I don't know if you would even call it a cave, but there was a place underneath the overhang that kind of came in anyway, when Native Americans would come to an area, they wouldn't ever bring dirt out, they would always bring dirt in, and so there was so much dirt that was piled up over the years that my dad and the people that were digging with him, I was there six months to the day before this incident happened, we would, we would have to dig, they would dig to get to their arrowheads that were quite far down underneath the dirt, Michael Hingson  28:46 yeah, Speaker 1  28:47 yeah, yeah, and so this unfortunate day, my dad was in a hole, probably I don't know, eight or nine feet, and a little dirt fell on him, and you know, he kind of joked with his friend Jason, who was further up this hall, and a few seconds later all that dirt just came in, just, just quickly, automatically. He was vanished without a trace, and then a big rock came down on that dirt. If it wasn't for that third person that decided to come that very morning, they did not come before. His name's Jerry. Then I'm sure that my dad would have died, Michael Hingson  29:25 because Speaker 1  29:25 there was no way that Jason, who also was stuck up to like his knee in dirt, could have got out in time to get the rock and then to unearth my dad. So, Michael Hingson  29:39 yeah, a fascinating book. Now, you, you self-published that one as well. Speaker 1  29:43 I did, didn't wait around, just went ahead, and yeah. Michael Hingson  29:49 Do you have other books in you? Speaker 1  29:51 I have one done. I needed to get it edited, and editorial reviews, and get my book cover designer over in Italy to do her magic. She did on the last two books, so yeah, I do have one in the, in the oven. Michael Hingson  30:05 Can you tell us a little about what it will be about, or what it's called, or anything? Speaker 1  30:08 Sure, the book right now is called I'm Listening, and it's all about my experiences, my pitfalls, my learnings as a therapist, and so it's a bit of a memoir of my professional work in the field, and some, some personal experiences. Michael Hingson  30:25 I think one of the most powerful things about books, especially when you're, when you're dealing with more nonfiction, because fiction books usually have stories with them, but a lot of nonfiction books don't really provide enough, I think, of a personal inroad to the individual who wrote the book. One of my big beliefs, one of my pet peeves, is I think textbooks are so boring, like physics. My master's degree is in physics, and I maintain that the big problem is that none of the physics professors who are writing all these books ever put anything in about their own personal experiences to really get people excited because of of their their stories and what they can teach through their stories. It's just all math and equations and and words, just about the physics, but never the other part. I think that textbooks would be better if they put some stories in them, Speaker 1  31:22 I think. So, too, I think people's eyes wouldn't come out of their sockets, and they wouldn't, you know, be comatose. You know, they can actually keep up, and they can be engaged and involved with the material. Yeah, Michael Hingson  31:35 I had a colleague when we were at UC Irvine. We were in the same physics class together, and he had this one book, and he noticed that there didn't seem to really be any typos or whatever in it, and he meticulously, through the whole quarter, went through that whole book, and I think he finally found one misspelled word, and he was so proud of both that there were there were no others other than the one, but that he found one misspelled word we do with our lives. Speaker 1  32:07 What people do sometimes for kicks. Well, I'm glad. I wonder where that word was. Like, did he go through the whole book, and it's like on the last page, or you know, where is that at? It was Michael Hingson  32:22 near the end, but it wasn't on the last page, but it was.. it was.. it took him a long time to find it. Speaker 1  32:29 I wanted to do that with my first book. I could have easily done a book about the intersection of martial arts themes with, you know, mental wellness, but I mean, why not? I mean, I had that experience for over four years in the martial arts. Why not do that? Michael Hingson  32:48 So, tell me about that. You've mentioned martial arts several times, so obviously you've had some involvement with martial arts. Speaker 1  32:54 I have. Yeah, so when I was a preteen, I got a black belt in what's called a Water Rule Karate, so it's like W A D O R Y U, and when I was a teenager, like 16 to 18, I was doing what's called American Campo, and that did have a little bit of Jiu Jitsu thrown into the mix, Michael Hingson  33:16 so what prompted the interest in doing that Speaker 1  33:20 first was my dad, you know, part of my family was interested, so the guy, why not? And I don't know at that time whether I was experiencing bullying. Unfortunately, I experienced bullying like going to church before church started, which was unfortunate, say. So I mean, I think it was just a really good experience for me, looking back for balance and discipline in that way, and getting to meet people in the community. I can't, I can't initially remember what prompted that. My dad was interested, my brother was too, so was I. And then when I was 16, I was like, let's pick it up, let's do something different, let's try something new, and so we were able to go to this really small outfit, which was called the Snake Pit at the time, very different from the more like larger dojo in the community from my early years. Michael Hingson  34:14 What has being involved with the martial arts done to help you or to you or for you in dealing with mental wellness and the whole issue of what you do today. How is martial arts affecting all of that? Speaker 1  34:35 Yeah, it's a really good question. Martial arts showed me the importance of balance when we're doing sparring, when we're doing more, so when we're doing training on techniques, I can't be too far away when I'm sparring someone, because then it's not natural, it's not organic, nor, but I can be so close that I might hit them, so there needs to be some type of balance and self control, and that's. Something else, as well as being out of some self control. Yeah, Michael Hingson  35:05 well, martial arts is, I understand, it seems to me, as much about your mental being as learning physical techniques, because there is a whole lot that really comes down to how you approach it mentally. Am I correct? Speaker 1  35:24 Yeah, there's a big piece when it comes to stamina. When I was doing sparring, I actually had to find a place between being so passive, but also not being super aggressive. Like, how do I get that mental, emotional stamina to do this powering, you know, in a way that was quite balanced. Yes, but there is a lot when it comes to being in touch with my body, being in touch with where my mind is, with focus, with being not beating myself up, not really being perfect, or trying to achieve perfection. Yet, there's a certain vulnerability that comes with that in the mind, and also when it comes to the body, Michael Hingson  36:06 how so Speaker 1  36:10 well, there's vulnerability just simply with doing different techniques, because if you don't, if you don't like being touched, then it's going to be really difficult, because there's often a lot of touch happening, and and when it comes to the mind, it's there's vulnerability with putting myself out there and being seen by others, because we're often watching one another with training, and so there is this piece around vulnerability around, hey, you know what, whatever they think, okay, they can think I'm still working on this technique, Michael Hingson  36:40 mm and it, and it does, as you grow mentally with, with martial arts, I'm sure that it also helps in terms of your resilience. Speaker 1  36:55 Resilience plays a key factor, indeed, because you know, when it comes to even with sparring, you know, getting hit, I can't just kind of, oh, I got hit and I want to go back and I want to go in the corner. Well, no, I've got to keep going. Yeah, gotta keep moving, gotta keep walking and deflecting, and you know, going with the punches. And I, there was one experience with a young man, at least two years younger than me, he was a silver glove boxer, like a champion silver glove, and there had to be some resilience for me there, because I was getting clobbered, I was getting, I was getting hit over and over, because he was using a boxing type of, you know, boxing moves I wasn't used to defending against, and he was quick, and there comes a certain level of humility when it comes to being in the martial arts as well, because there's going to be experiences like that. Michael Hingson  37:49 Well, did you eventually get to the point where you could defend yourself against him? Speaker 1  37:55 He wasn't there for too long. Yeah, the more yet, the more that I was able to work with him, the more I was able to, you know, understand a little bit more where he was coming from with the moves, Michael Hingson  38:05 right. Well, in your life and all the things that you've done, have you experienced grief in any way? And kind of, what was that? Speaker 1  38:14 Yeah, there was a moment, there wasn't an issue when it came to a disenfranchised loss. My wife had a silent miscarriage, and so that was pretty brutal. How that turned out for her, and vicariously for me, and seeing her go through that really difficult, emotionally painful situation was hard. And so I mean, I've sure I've lost all but one grandparent at this point, and I did lose some child, like one childhood friend, when I was 16 to a car accident that was pretty brutal. Yet this loss was, yeah, was really difficult, because it's something that a lot of people don't understand, they don't want to talk about, they don't know what to say, or it's really difficult just to listen, and that was hard. Michael Hingson  39:09 Yeah, but at the same time, as you well know, from all that you've experienced, God doesn't give us things that we can't handle, and we have to learn to move forward Speaker 1  39:22 with resilience, with God's help. Michael Hingson  39:24 Yeah, Speaker 1  39:24 yeah, with prayer, perseverance. Yeah, Michael Hingson  39:27 I lost my father, actually, on November 1 of 1984 and my mother in May of 1987 and then my brother actually developed breast cancer in 2011 and they, they dealt with it, and he went into remission, but it came back, and he didn't take care of himself very well, as I understand it, because he lived in Florida, and we were in California, but anyway, it came back, and it metastasized, and so we lost him in 2015 so at the same time. Yeah, there were relatives on my wife's side that we lost a couple very unexpectedly, and yeah, you do learn to deal with grief, but you learn that you got to go forward, and so when Karen passed in 2022 at least it wasn't totally all of a sudden, so I had some time to prepare, but you know, I still miss her, and I wouldn't want it any other way. Speaker 1  40:23 Yeah, for sure. I, and I mean, losing your parents around two and a half or so years apart, and with your brother, and then with your wife, that's a lot. That's a lot. Yet I hear that even though there was some preparation time for you, it can still be, it can still be difficult, it can still hit the nail, you know. I was doing some grief work, a grief course, and they showed us this poem called Whose Whose Grief Is Worse, basically. And there were these two experiences of someone that lost someone suddenly and someone that knew, and at the end of the poem. Basically, it's both are painful. There is no worse grief. Michael Hingson  41:05 There's no, there's no wrong or right answer to all of that. It's, it's different, but we all can learn to deal with it. I know when the events of September 11 happened, for me, ironically, the greatest blessing I had was that the media got my story and we started getting a lot of requests for interviews and my wife and I decided we would accept them and I got asked so many questions by so many different reporters, some dumb questions were absolutely stupid, idiotic questions, but some that were very insightful, and so I probably was able to move on from that day much more because of all of the questions and getting used to dealing with those questions than anything else that could have come along. It Speaker 1  41:58 was a choice, and you probably appreciated those reporters that took the time to ask those carefully planned questions. Michael Hingson  42:06 I've had some people, no matter how many times the story gets repeated, who still say, "What were you doing in the World Trade Center, anyway? And I'm sitting there going, "Have you read Thunderdog? Have you read any of the stories in the press? What do you mean, what was I doing in the World Trade Center? Speaker 1  42:23 It's not like, you know, it's out there, you know, it's been published, you can read it. Yeah, Michael Hingson  42:30 I wasn't a spy for the terrorists, I can tell you that. Speaker 1  42:36 I wouldn't, I wouldn't have thought that for a second, Michael Hingson  42:41 but but, but you know, things happen, and you never know where you're going to be, you never know what might come up, and it's just one of those things that we, we all really need to deal with in one way or another, and that's just what's so important. Speaker 1  42:56 Absolutely, you know, one of the quotes I heard from my training was, and I take it with me, and I, I definitely relate to it personally. Is joy shared is joy doubled, and grief shared is grief halved, and the stuff we're doing, even today, and even those listening that might have been through grief, is as long as we're able to talk about it, and just talk about something that does not make any sense whatsoever to us, that's part of the healing process. Michael Hingson  43:23 Yeah, it's important to talk about it. It's important to share, and I understand you want to be careful. You don't want to just talk necessarily about it with anyone, but you do need to find people that you can share with and that you can talk to about Speaker 1  43:39 it. Totally, yeah, the grocery store clerk, you know, that I'm getting my bread and butter from, maybe they're not ready for that, that particular topic, Michael Hingson  43:48 yeah, Speaker 1  43:48 yeah, Michael Hingson  43:50 and and the thing that we all need to do is to really, I think, do a lot more to listen to our inner voice, it'll tell us what we need to do if we listen, Speaker 1  43:58 yes, I believe that for sure, I've seen, I've seen that. Yeah, Michael Hingson  44:03 so you've dealt with all the, this, the psychological work that you do. You dealt with addiction, and so on. How does martial arts play into that? What have you learned from martial arts that helps you in dealing with recovery from addiction? Speaker 1  44:16 Oh, well, where to start. I think that one piece to really focus on is this concept of self love, and I don't mean self love like I'm better than other people out there, but just being okay with where I'm at for myself, but still pushing myself to learn new things, so some acceptance about where I'm at when it comes to martial arts, that has to be there. I might not be doing the technique perfectly, and I, there was times where I could really easily beat myself up mentally, like, "Oh, why can't I get this? Yet it's just trying to take a step back and see that I'm worthy enough to make the. Approach to make these changes when it comes to addiction. I'm worthy enough to seek out help. These feelings I have that they're okay to feel, and I don't have to beat myself up for this. Michael Hingson  45:11 Yeah, because addiction is is a disease, and I think anyone who condemns somebody just because, for example, they use drugs, and, well, they shouldn't do that. They're dumb for doing it. They really miss assess what's going on. Speaker 1  45:28 People that have that mindset that it's more of a mere choice, they don't understand that if you put, you know, a shot of alcohol in front of someone and you tell them not to drink it, and you put a gun on them, they're going to be wondering, maybe he'll slip his hand off the trigger, you know, that kind of thinking, that's that's the disease aspect. And I recommend anybody that wants to know more about addiction being a disease, check out Kevin McCauley's documentary, Pleasure Unwoven. It's a really good documentary that shows the different aspects of the disease. Yeah, Michael Hingson  46:08 I have never taken drugs in that way, and don't want to, but again, that's my choice, and I've learned enough from other people that I know that if, if I'm having a problem, taking drugs isn't going to help me solve the problem, and it isn't going to even really help me hide from it, but I guess that's just my makeup that I know that I have to face whatever comes along head on. Speaker 1  46:33 Yes, the resilience piece, Michael Hingson  46:36 the resilience piece, and I've wanted to do that. Speaker 1  46:39 Awesome, I can see with everything you've been through, Michael, you've definitely lent in, you've leaned in, you've pushed forward. Michael Hingson  46:47 Well, I think that part of the issue is as a, as a blind person who's faced a lot of challenges and seen things, what I choose to do whenever anything happens to me is I want to learn from it, so I don't want to ignore it, even if it's something that's totally not related to me in any way. I want to learn from it, if I'm involved, because I think that's the only way I'm going to be able to make sure that I deal with anything like that, any kind of surprise. The next time I talk about a lot when I am talking to people about blindness, about surprises, and I talk about the fact that I could be crossing a street, I could get to the corner and listen to the traffic, and when I hear the traffic going the way I want to go, then I'll cross the street. So I start crossing a street, and all of a sudden I hear a car from behind me, and it's not going the way I want to go, suddenly it's, it's turning, or there's somebody that is is across the street from me, not the way I'm going, and I start to cross the street when it's supposed to be my turn, and they decide they're going to go, and so I am, I've learned to constantly be alert, but at the same time, what I have to do is figure out very quickly, do I want to go forward or do I want to go backwards to have the best chance of getting away from this, Speaker 1  48:11 which way do I move in my direction with my spatial awareness with your spatial awareness, and that, and that brings me to another, I think, actually, another piece with martial arts and how it intersects is treating the addiction like an opponent that may be sauntering around that corner at any moment in time, and being able to see that I need to be on the alert, I need to know more than one direction, as you mentioned a moment ago, more than one direction that I could go, rather than just the free, the ability to have choice. Yeah, Michael Hingson  48:51 can addiction truly be cured? Not the reason I asked the question is I know so often I hear when I hear people talking about alcoholism, you can't really cure alcoholism, and maybe that's true. I don't know, Speaker 1  49:10 you know, it depends on how you ask, from a medical standpoint, from a disease standpoint, since we see it as a chronic progressive primary condition, which means nothing necessarily causes it every time. The answer would be no, because of its progression. However, can it can addiction, whether it's alcoholism, whatever, be stunted as far as its progression? Absolutely. Can be, can people live fulfilling lives? Absolutely. Can there be reversal of certain symptoms and signs. Yes, however, just I think that to say, you know, one day someone's gonna wake up and they no longer have cravings or the warning signs or the the neurobiology. Logical strings, it's tough to say that's a no. Michael Hingson  50:04 Yeah, thanks. That's the makeup of the individual that brings that about. I, I have.. I take an occasional drink. In fact, Karen and I used to have a drink on Friday night, one drink, and I kind of honor her by having a bourbon and seven every Friday night when I make, when I cook dinner, but one, because I've never been a great fan of the taste of alcohol, but I understand there are a lot of people who really like the taste of it, and that has led them into pretty dark places, which is unfortunate. Speaker 1  50:36 Yeah, still Michael Hingson  50:37 happens. Speaker 1  50:38 It does still happen, for sure. And I appreciate you liking bourbon. We make a bourbon walnut ice cream, and I don't ever drink the bourbon by itself. It's been in the cupboard for months now. And anyway, Michael Hingson  50:55 well, my bourbon and seven is a whole lot more seven up than bourbon. Speaker 1  50:59 Totally right, and good for you for having that ritual, you know, for you and for Michael Hingson  51:06 her. That's kind of neat to be able to do that, but I've just never felt that I need to, and I'm, and I'm glad. So it's continuing to share that. Well, you do a lot of couples therapy. How does all that go, and what kind of challenges does that make for you and for them? Speaker 1  51:29 Well, I'll give you this short story. We were eating at Denny's with this man, and just a friend of a friend, and he said to us, he asked me about my work, and I told him, yeah, I'm working with, you know, a lot of addiction, and with couples, he's like, I heard from another counselor, Eric, that if you really want to make it hard on yourself, you work in addiction, and you work with couples that always make it have a challenge, and, like, yeah, true. And so, when it comes to working with couples, it is challenging. There's something about having two people to work with, there's so many dynamics at play, different than perhaps being with just one person, you know, coming from two different histories, biographically different life upbringings, family upbringing, personalities. It can be really challenging. I do appreciate challenge. I've learned so much. I learned from each couple that I work with, and it's a whole different beast. Michael Hingson  52:29 Yeah, and, and it is. I like what you said, though. You learn from it, and that's probably the most important thing that any of us can do with anything in any endeavor that we undertake is that we learn from it. Speaker 1  52:44 If I can't learn from something, what am I, what am I doing there? And if I'm not learning from something, how can that benefit other people that I'm trying to help support? So, yeah, I tried to get the couple to start to be, you know, them versus the concern, rather than you versus me. That's a big goal of couples therapy. Michael Hingson  53:08 That's an interesting way to put it. That makes a lot of sense. I've never thought of it that way, but it's them. It does have to be them, but them versus the concern. That, that's interesting. Speaker 1  53:18 Yeah, yeah. Then they start, they start looking at how can we collaborate rather than trying to annihilate each other. Michael Hingson  53:26 Yeah, Speaker 1  53:27 metaphorically speaking, Michael Hingson  53:31 so you've talked about the work that you did when you were in Mississippi, when you worked in small towns, and so on, and you worked in probably some fairly substantive places as well. What do you find that's different about outpatient versus inpatient work, and in terms of what you do and how you approach it? Speaker 1  53:52 Well, I'll just say that doing inpatient work is kind of like raising kids, so not.. I mean, I don't have any experience, because I don't, I don't have kids, I got nieces and nephews yet. I know that feeling well. Yeah, there's just something about being around someone more than just like that hour, hour and a half, seeing them like eight or nine hours a day, you get to know them pretty well, as opposed to, you know, once an hour every one or two, three weeks, that in that comes some benefits with the inpatient work. Yet also it can be really difficult when it comes to boundaries. They feel like you can do things that maybe you're not able to do professionally with them, maybe like as far as like self-disclosure wise or things like that, and there's just there's just a thing around boundaries, and even with the inpatient work, you know, I'll have one client come and say, 'Hey, this other counselor said I could do this, and I would be like, 'Okay, and then I found out later the counselor didn't say that at all, so there's that type. The drama got to deal with, with it, with the inpatient work, Michael Hingson  55:04 but you don't find that as much without patient, because you tend to be able to get closer to the individual, and that probably also develops a higher trust level. Speaker 1  55:14 There is a higher trust level if you mean, like, doing outpatient work, or outpatient, but we have the outpatient, for sure, because I am solely with them, and they know that time is of the essence, whether it's weekly or bi-weekly, whatever, and I'm being able to focus on them, for sure, yeah, Michael Hingson  55:35 and it's a lot harder to do that when it's an impatient kind of situation Speaker 1  55:40 in my two experiences, both up in Calgary and also Mississippi, with inpatient, there's so many other things in the inner workings of doing inpatient going on that sure I can still add that time with somebody, yet I'm also thinking about, you know, the next class and next group offering other logistical duties, it's a little bit easier to do that one on one. Yeah, indeed, indeed. Michael Hingson  56:10 Do you think that you can develop? I assume the answer is yes, but I'll ask, do you think that it's possible to develop the same level of trust in doing inpatient work, or it may be harder, but can you do it? Speaker 1  56:28 That can happen on a case by case basis, depending on my relationship with someone. Yes, I can get there, and you know, just.. and sometimes, paradoxically, it can happen even quicker than outpatient, depending on the situation, because I am with them. There is a positive with that. Yes, Michael Hingson  56:48 it's.. it's a matter of working to build it, you know. And, unfortunately, human beings, especially nowadays, are so mistrustful of so many things, we've learned not to trust, and so in my latest book, Live Like a Guide Dog, I talk about that a lot, because while I think dogs love unconditionally, they don't trust unconditionally, but they're open to trust, they want to develop trusting relationships, and we just assume everyone has their own hidden agendas, and it's so hard to develop trusting relationships, Speaker 1  57:24 very hard, very difficult. It takes time and effort and patience, tolerance for myself, the other person, and that makes sense with dogs, because I mean, enough's, you know, when a dog's been abused, they don't want to trust right away, no, for sure. Michael Hingson  57:38 Well, but even even dogs that aren't abused, like I believe it takes for me, and I think if you really analyze it, for most people with a guide dog, I think it takes a good year to develop such a working relationship that you develop such a trust that essentially you each know what the other is thinking and you really know how to work it. It's not that they're not mistrustful, but they're open. They're open to trust, but you've got to, you've got to gain their trust, and that's my job as the team leader. And I'm supposed to be the team leader, but it also means that I have to agree, well, earn or gain their trust. The neat thing, and what makes it possible to do that, assuming that you approach it the right way and don't assume a dog is just a dumb animal, which they're not, is that in fact working with a dog, you know that they're more likely to be open to trust, and that makes it a little bit easier than our prejudice that says everybody's got a hidden agenda that we got to focus on, Speaker 1  58:47 yeah. And appreciate you sharing that, and it shows just the amount of work that comes into play with trust. Michael Hingson  58:54 Yeah, it's it's a challenge, but it is doable. Well, so what's next for you? Speaker 1  59:01 Yeah, just doing some work after this with the work that I do, and yeah, it's starting to get that book into the place of having editorial reviews and starting to get that edited professionally. Michael Hingson  59:14 Have either of your books been converted to audio? Speaker 1  59:17 The second one has. Yes. Michael Hingson  59:22 Is it? Where is it available? Audible, or how is it available? Speaker 1  59:25 It's my own special design. It's actually got a, it's got a Texan man, a doing it. He's got a nice voice, pretty soothing. Yet it's through what's called the Hero app, H I R O. And I can send you the link if you're interested. For that, Michael Hingson  59:40 love to, yeah, Speaker 1  59:42 yeah. Michael Hingson  59:44 Well, this has been enjoyable, certainly by any standard. If people want to reach out to you, maybe use your services or talk with you. How do they do that? Speaker 1  59:53 They can find me, Michael, through Recovery Arts counseling.com and that's Counseling with 2l's since I'm up here in Canada. You can find me through Instagram at Eric Fisher Writer or Recovery Arts Counseling. You can find me Facebook the same way on LinkedIn, just type in my name. You can look for, like, Calgary, like counselor recovery counseling. What do else? That's right, everybody learned something new today, if they did not, if they didn't already. So, those are a few Michael Hingson  1:00:25 ways. Well, that's great. Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to be here, and I value greatly your insights. I've learned things, and I always enjoy doing that. And I hope all of you out there listening have as well. Love to get your thoughts, so I'd love to hear from you. Feel free to email me at Michael M I C H A E L H I at Accessi B A C C E S S I B e.com Wherever you're listening or watching, or both, this podcast, please give us a five star review. But even more important than a review, a rating, five star rating, give us a review. We really value reviews and people who might be interested in listening to our podcasts, are going to read those reviews. I can tell you for sure that people love to know what others think. So, we value your reviews a great deal. And if any of you, including you, Eric, know of anyone else who ought to be a guest on Unstoppable Mindset, we'd love an introduction, because we're always looking for people who want to come on and tell their stories, so I hope that that we'll find ways to do that, and definitely value you being here, Eric, and doing all this, and I want to thank you again for being here. This has been a lot of fun. Speaker 1  1:01:37 Thank you, Michael. Happy to be on you. thank Michael Hingson  1:01:43 you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others. I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them, so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable min

Leadership, success, and personal growth all begin with a simple truth: the mind must be trained before results can change. I had the opportunity to sit down with Manny Fiteni, CEO of My Growth Corporation, to explore personal development, leadership, mind congruency, intuition, and the subconscious patterns that shape our lives. Manny shares how his corporate career, a life-changing bank robbery, and the challenges of the pandemic led him to build a business focused on helping individuals and organizations grow. We discuss why people sabotage their goals, how subconscious conditioning influences leadership and relationships, and what it takes to create high-performing teams. Manny also explains practical ways to align the conscious and subconscious mind, strengthen intuition, and build habits that support long-term success. If you're interested in personal growth, leadership development, mindset training, and creating lasting change, I believe you will find this conversation valuable. Highlights: 13:05 - Why people sabotage their own goals. 22:12 - How the mirror principle shapes results. 26:29 - Simple ways to reprogram habits. 32:15 - Staying calm during a bank robbery. 43:07 - The foundation of high performing teams. 59:06 - Building resilience from a young age. About the Guest: Manny Fiteni, CEO of My Growth Corporation, is a pioneering leadership strategist with 30+ years of corporate experience specializing in transformative personal development. Core Methodology: Mind Congruency Manny's "Mind Congruency" approach aligns conscious and subconscious minds, enabling individuals to overcome self-limiting beliefs and unlock peak performance. His unique methodology differs from traditional research by drawing insights from real-world, uncontrolled environments, whereby he used these leadership techniques in real world situations. He works from the premise that to build a high performing team, you need to work from 3 pillars. Environment, True Leadership and Mind Congruency. Innovative Platforms Founder of My Growth Corporation, which has the following offerings: •     Mind Growth 360 (personal development network) mindgrowth360.com •     Creators Agency (brand elevation platform) creatorsagency.studio •     Manny Fiteni Training and Development (leadership and personal transformation) mannyfiteni.com •     Personal Development House (A directory for helping you find those that provide services in personal development). Personaldevelopmenthouse.com •     Skillzap AI - (A new way to battle your friends with trivia and learn at the same time) skillzapai.com All can be found on mygrowthcorporation.com Professional Impact Manny's training programs empower professionals by: •     Enhancing leadership skills •     Building organizational resilience •     Driving high-performance team dynamics •     Assisting individuals to strip down past programmimg Global Influence As an author and international speaker, Manny provides actionable strategies for personal transformation. His mission remains consistent: equipping individuals with practical tools to thrive personally and professionally. A thought leader bridging psychological insights with practical business application, Manny Fiteni continues to inspire global audiences. . Ways to connect with Manny: mygrowthcorporation.com Mindgrowth360.com Mannyfiteni.com creatorsagency.studio Skillzapai.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What if the answers you're searching for arrived long before you knew how to understand them? In this conversation, I sit down with Kip Baldwin, a filmmaker, producer, writer, and founder of the Just Love movement. Kip shares the extraordinary awakening he experienced at age 12 and how it set him on a lifelong path of exploring consciousness, love, spirituality, and human connection. From the music industry and sustainable agriculture to television production, ethical AI, and overcoming a traumatic brain injury, Kip's journey has been anything but ordinary. As we talk, Kip reflects on why fear has become such a powerful force in society, how love can transform the way we see ourselves and others, and why he believes lasting change starts with a shift in consciousness. You will hear stories of resilience, curiosity, and purpose, along with a vision for creating a better future for generations to come. I believe you will find this conversation thought-provoking, challenging, and full of hope. Highlights: 01:45 - How a childhood acting career sparked a lifelong passion for media and communication. 07:08 - Why confidence without self-awareness can become a liability. 16:32 - Lessons from the Kellogg School of Management that still shape business decisions today. 21:58 - Why listening beats talking in business, leadership, and life. 35:08 - How strong brands grow through awareness, not just loyalty programs. 01:05:02 - The three traits Zarko looks for when mentoring future leaders. About the Guest: Kip Baldwin knows his purpose for Being is to share all that LOVE is through his many solutions driven projects; using media in all its forms to help awaken individuals, and by proxy the collective, to the LOVE Paradigm emerging. He feels that in order for a new chapter of our story to be conceived for humanity, a mass imagining of our limitless potential is what is needed to bring about an age of compassion, empathy, collaboration, and oneness.  Kip was born in 1965 to counterculture parents - in the midst of the maelstrom that was the decade of the sixties, in fact 1965 was the first year that scientists warned us about climate change - in Vancouver, Washington. His earliest years were spent on a farm where his grandparents raised thoroughbred horses. During this period grew in him a deep, abiding LOVE and respect for nature and all living things. It was around the age of twelve his life would transform forever, as he had an out of body experience that took him beyond the edge of Universe, even Space and Time, and face to face with the unknowable of Infinity. This experience became the foundation for his constant seeking since. Due to that experience Kip felt he must explore the world beyond the small town confines of Camas, WA where he grew up. His first attempt to break free was to do a brief stint in the Navy, where he was going to pursue a career as an electric technician, but because of a hereditary bleeding disorder he was given a medical discharge. However, a military career for him was clearly never really in the cards anyway. Although he was always grateful for the insight it gave him into the inner workings of our country, as he witnessed first the how the poor are literally cannon fodder for corporations, under the guise of them being heroes and patriots. Following his discharge, he returned briefly to the limits of his hometown, before moving to the San Francisco Bay Area in 1985 to pursue his passion for music and performing. He often jokes that he was looking for the San Francisco of the Haight/Ashbury, Peace and LOVE days, but arrived twenty years too late. What he found instead was the 80s hair metal band scene, whose songs that focused on partying, sex, and drugs were not compatible with his lyrics about awakening awareness and addressing the need for personal and societal change. In the late 90s, after becoming disillusioned by his beloved music industry - and always seeking solutions for the myriad of challenges facing humanity - he shifted his focus to local and sustainable foods. While this was certainly a worthwhile pursuit, it did little to fulfill his need to share LOVE’S Truth and create a collective shift in consciousness. But what it did do was make him aware that it was only going to be through the use of mass media that his message of LOVE could reach a large enough audience to affect real lasting change. This found him again heeding the call of the entertainment industry, first as an actor, then writer, and ultimately as a producer, with some success co-creating the influential cannabis series Weed Country for the Discovery Network (focusing on the countless benefits humanity can derive from marijuana, as well as our profound historical connection to the plant), co-founding the United Filmmakers Association, and starting the Just LOVE Movement. Ultimately, this led him to co-founding S.O.U.L. Documentary with creative partner and Soul Twin, Evan Hirsch who shares his passion, purpose and mission to heal humanity by embracing our innate oneness, which they both understand can only be achieved by accepting and grounding ourselves in the Reality of LOVE We Are. Ways to connect with Kip: Facebook:  Just LOVE page: https://www.facebook.com/kipbaldwinjustlove Main page: https://www.facebook.com/kip.baldwin/ UFA: https://www.facebook.com/groups/Unifilmmakers LinkedIn:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/kip-baldwin-975a3514/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kipbaldwin?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ%3D%3D\&utm_source=qr YouTube: Kip Baldwin: https://youtube.com/@thekiprowdy?si=LckMuhec40lWAicF Just LOVE: https://youtube.com/@justlove6463?si=QW1g4D2dlaHmJk8B S.O.U.L. Documentary: https://youtube.com/@souldocumentary?si=4HOwlV-pjFN6guYy Soul Twin Messiah: https://youtube.com/@soultwinmessiah?si=7ctLlmqjeOczkjO_ Additional must listen:  Comfort You Song: https://youtu.be/Mi8D3AoDfRQ?si=y8RzIQPXP5ALJth1 A World Worth Imagining: https://youtu.be/Cx28t6_SGic?si=o4lWs7po3TBKx_3A Invitation. To Action: https://youtu.be/B8jUOUVCvJI?si=l4Pr7vWNDsnXX4wh AI work: www.luminaLOVE.LOVE About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:03 One of the biggest things holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe. Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingson, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone, I am your host Mike Hingson, and you are listening and or watching Unstoppable Mindset. We're really glad that you're here with us today. Our guest, the person I get the honor of chatting with for the next hour or so, is Kip Baldwin, who will talk a lot about love. He will talk a lot about a number of different things, he's been a director, he's been a producer, an actor. He has been published, although he hasn't published a book yet, but he's published poetry, and I'm sure he's going to tell us about that, and I don't want to give it away, so I won't. Anyway, Kip, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're Kip Baldwin  01:40 here. Oh, thank you so much for having me, Michael. I look forward to having this conversation and sharing my story. Michael Hingson  01:47 Well, tell us a little bit about you, kind of. Let's start with the early Kip, growing up and all that, because I know you had some things along the way that were relevant and ought to be mentioned. So, why don't you tell us about the early Kip, and we'll go from there. Speaker 1  02:00 I was. I grew up in Washington State, little town called Camas. Although my earliest years were spent in a town called Battleground, Washington, and my family, we raised horses, Thoroughbred race horses. We raised at Portland Meadows, and so I'm kind of a farm boy at heart, at least that's how I grew up, but I had an experience when I was 12 that was definitely not your typical farm boy experience, I guess. I had gone up to Seattle, and this was maybe 78 to see a Seahawks game with the Raiders of my dad and dad, I had a good day, which wasn't always the case, and got home, and it was a, you know, five and a half hour round trip for kids, 12 year olds, a big time, and so I went to bed, and I promptly left my body, and now keep in mind I had never done any drugs. Out of body experiences, a household projection was not something that we talked about about the old farm around the farmhouse dinner table, and I floated over my bedroom. My awareness hovered over my body, and I remember very vividly you don't forget. I looked at my body and went, "I'm not in there. And then that immediately I left my house, I left the planet, I left the solar system, I let the galaxy, I let the universe, and the whole time all I can describe was kind of a presence, not a voice or anything, but just, are you taking all of this in? And sometimes words can't convey something so expansive and grand, and so I was taking in black holes and quasars and nebulas, and just flying through the, you know, time didn't really exist, but I was, I was traveling across the universe, and eventually I got outside the universe, and my awareness was turned in, and I could see how everything was connected, and how the universe itself was finite, and but that everything had a place, there was no less or greater than that, everything had a specific role, from the smallest particle to, you know, the largest star, and then my awareness was turned out to the blackness of infinity, and that you know you don't know at 12, you're just like, "Oh, this is happening, and I'm what's happening, and I'm taking it in, and what I didn't know is that would become my point of seeking that really became the rest of my life. Life, I think, had I been born in India, like say Ramana Maharishi, who had what I didn't realize until later, there's a name for what happened to me, and it's called a spontaneous awakening. My life would have probably been much different, but we don't live in a society that that really honors things like that, so it was a lot of me going on a journey of discovery and a weight and continual awakening until now, and it's an ongoing process, but that's where it really began with me being confronted with the fact that there there can't be a beginning or ending to anything, and the thought experiments that can't, that come out of that, and the way it opens your consciousness, I'm ever grateful for, although at the time it, it made me for a long time feel very apart, and it wasn't until I met with Dr. Dr. Dean Radin up at Noetic Sciences, and I told him my story, and he looked at me, and he went, "You go, that's not a usual experience, he said, "That's a mystical experience, and I was in my probably late 40s, maybe 50 at that time, and that was the first time in my life that someone had had said, 'Hey, what you, what you had was a really phenomenal experience, and I'm very grateful for him for saying that to me, because for most of my life, I'm running around talking about these profound things with people that I thought were incredibly important to share, and they didn't seem very important to people, and it wasn't until then that it hit me that it wasn't that they were important, that it was that they, they didn't really understand what I was talking about. Michael Hingson  07:03 Well, and in our society, as you point out, it's not something that is generally appreciated, and and people who have had those experiences or talk about them are generally looked down upon or frowned upon, and you know that's that's fine, but it doesn't change the fact, and so it must have been hard, especially at first, for you to talk about that. Speaker 1  07:29 You know, I was so excited at first, I was excited to share it with my family, and and it happened a couple more times, and it was so overwhelming that literally I would get to a point where my head, my physical being couldn't handle it anymore, and I would get up and vomit. It was that's how, how intense it was, like I just, I couldn't take in anymore. And so, at first, I was really excited to share it, because it was beyond wondrous. It was, it was truth. It was reality, and I, and on some level, I knew that instinctually. But then, when enough people sort of ignore you or act like something's unimportant, you stop talking about Michael Hingson  08:15 it. Yeah, Speaker 1  08:15 I never stopped writing about it. I never stopped experiencing it, and I didn't even really stop talking about it once I moved to California for the music business in 1985 I, you know, then I thought, wow, I mean, being a group of creatives and there's going to be other people that will understand what I'm talking about, but in the 80s music environment it really wasn't what people were, were talking or thinking about, and I was kind of in the same way, and again it wasn't until years later that I look back and I realized all this time I spent up late at night partying with people and stuff, and telling them about infinity, and, and they look, they, they must have been looking at me like I'm a complete idiot, because they really only cared about, you know, getting high or having sex, and I'm trying to have this profound conversation. Michael Hingson  09:16 So, when your family, when you told your family, how did they react? Speaker 1  09:20 They still don't understand it to this day. It just, oh, that's nice, you know. It actually, there were points in my life where it caused conflict with, especially my father, because when I would say none of this is real, he, he always considered him, and still to this day considers himself quite science physics buff, it wasn't something he was willing to accept, and, and even really have a reasonable conversation about. I would say that the things that got me through all these years was, you know, the universe. There's love, God, Brahmin, whatever you want to call it, it gives you what you need, and what it gave me throughout the years, and still to this day, is voices that made me realize I wasn't crazy, that I knew something really special. Probably the first thing, the first one I remember, like, that was Joseph Campbell being interviewed by Bill Moyers, and somehow I knew everything that Joseph Campbell was talking about, and I'm like, How can I possibly know these things? How can I possibly understand these things of this really brilliant, just beautiful soul? And throughout the years, it's been those touch those moments of going, oh, it hasn't been where I've heard someone go, wow, that's helped me awaken, it's been something that's helped me not feel insane and realize that the things that I'm sharing have been shared for 1000s of years, and by many, many minds and beings much greater than myself, and that that really probably kept me from losing my mind. Michael Hingson  11:10 So, you had this experience happen to you at 12. What did you then specifically do? I mean, not so much talking to people, but what did it do for you, as far as schooling, and what you did with your life? Speaker 1  11:27 I would.. it made me very.. in all honesty, it made school seem really trivial to me. It was kind of boring. I started writing a lot. In fact, something I wrote when I was 17 was called Life and Death, and it went: Life is just a symptom of certain death, crying and laughing until our last breath. Everything dies in true infinity. Then the mountains crumble into the sea, stars full from the night sky hit the earth, and then they die, lost in time. I don't know who I am. Am I a god or just a mortal man? Time can't change what I have found. Still, I am changed and bound, bound by the fears and bound by lies. Even now, the tears fill my eyes, gasping for every breath as I head for a certain death, clouds now pass overhead, and I realize how things are now that I am dead. Life is ending, life goes on like the lyrics to an endless song. Life and death, it's all the same. We exist only in our brain, and so there was a lot of that. It pushed me away from I was confirmed Zion Lutheran. I really couldn't stomach religious dogma anymore at that point. Um, just the hypocrisy, you know? Like, I remember I, I was talking to a new pastor we had, and he was informing me that my great grandmother, who is Jehovah's Witness, and these Mormon boys had come around, were trying to teach me about Mormonism, and I was just curious and open, always, and still am to this day. I don't judge. I would say that's another big thing that this gave me, is I don't, I see everything as equal, I don't, I don't judge everything, I don't judge anything as lesser thing greater than I don't judge good and evil in the in the same way that other people do, I see things as flows of negative of energy as we exist in a duality with this illusion, and this is just what we describe as good and you are really just flows of energy between the polarities of the duality, and so it pushed me, definitely, because I, when he said that my great grandmother was going to go to hell, and these Mormon boys were going to go to hell, I looked him in the face, and I just said, but I thought God was love, and that was pretty much the end of my church, Michael Hingson  14:04 my, my wife did, I think, some things in the Lutheran church, which mostly she was a Methodist, and I joined the Methodist church when we got married, and so on, but when she was in, I think this was when she was in high school, maybe in, I guess it was late high school, early college. She met some Mormon people, and one of them said, I guess she was learning about different religions, and so she was learning about Mormonism, and this guy said you're either going to think that this is a total hoax or you're going to just totally believe in it. Well, it wasn't quite that way for her. She did not think it was a hoax, and I agree with her, but there. There are things about the about all religions that tend to make life difficult. The problem with religion is that that people are are what make up the religion, and they all have their own views, and it makes life really tough. I know I participated in a program called the Walk to Emmaus, which is a what's literally called a short course in Christianity, and it's not to bring people to the Christian church, but it's to help create a class of leaders in the Christian church. Anyway, one of the things about the walk to Emmaus is that a number of people give lectures, people who have been involved in church, and then there are the pilgrims, the people who are coming to to learn what everyone has to say, and the lay director of the Walk to Emmaus every time gives a speech, and I was lay director once, and one of the things that is in the manual, or was I assume it still is. It's been a while, but it says that Tolstoy once said the biggest problem with Christianity is that nobody practices it, and there's a lot of truth to that. Speaker 1  16:13 But I think that I think you hit it right on the head that people are involved, like I, and I do want to clarify something, I, I believe very much that that Jesus was a master. Oh, Michael Hingson  16:29 absolutely, yeah, and, Speaker 1  16:31 and, but I also believe that people don't know what happened at the Council of Nicaea and understand how the Bible was actually constructed, not because it was based on Gnostic teachings or even really the teachings of Christ, but it was cobbled together as a means of control. If Caesar saw his soldiers be turning to Christianity when they wanted to find, you know, put together a book that really didn't express Christian truth or the truth of Christ, but a way, a means of controlling people through fear, and so if you, if you notice, all the books in the Bible are male. Well, left out of the Bible was the book of Mary, left out of the Bible, it's the book of Thomas, who, interestingly enough, there's a place in India where they all speak ancient Aramaic, and they worship the Book of Thomas, which there's always been a lot of discussion. Did Jesus go to India and study Buddhism? And because even the Book of Mary, these are very Buddhist beliefs, but anything, because we live in a patriarchal society, anything like the piece to Sophia, the book of Mary, the book of Stackle, all of these were intentionally kept out of the Bible, so it's not, I think it's not so much religion, it's the organ, it's the dogma that comes along with organized religion, which is really about people, you know, men using it to control and manipulate people through fear, Michael Hingson  18:14 all too much, all too often. It's, it's true. Speaker 1  18:18 Yeah, and it's interesting. I was watching last night, and it's funny. This is why, why you always have to be on a constant path of awakening. It never stops. If you think you've reached that pinnacle, or whatever, then they're not just ego. There's always more to know and understand. And I ran across this video on Tara, well, Tara is in Buddhism, basically in every religion that I am aware of, there's always the peace to Sophia, there's always the the story of the divine feminine that in large part is is is not. It was. It's largely been suppressed, and so I was, I was watching this, and it was just so fascinating to me to see how identical what Tara was in Buddhism, which this is what, when Tara, Tara is considered the ultimate goddess in the Buddhist faith. Well, when Tara came to earth in the story, she went to a bunch of, you know, Buddhist monks, and they said, "Oh, you know, they were so impressed by her, and they thought this was a compliment. They said, "Well, we hope you, you can reincarnate as a man, and she said, "No, she She said, I don't see things as male and female, but since nobody else wants to be the feminine, I will play that role. And it was just a profoundly interesting thing to listen to, not just because of the story, but because almost every faith that I'm aware. Of has that story of the divine feminine that has again largely been suppressed and marginalized, Michael Hingson  20:09 well, for you clearly that was a very meaningful experience. What did what did you then do, and I understand how you could imagine that maybe what was being taught in school wasn't quite as, as meaningful as what you had experienced, but you went on, I assume, through high school, and did you go to college? Speaker 1  20:30 I was, I went, I was an electron, I went to the Navy to be an electronic technician, but I had a bleeding disorder called Von Willebrand disease, and I found out after I was in for about a year. Well, you can't be in the Navy with that, because we can't carry with the limited space you have on ships, we can't carry the clotting factor you would need if there's a problem. So that was fairly short-lived. Then I went back to Washington and was working as a dishwasher for a while, then I worked as a male stripper, and, and I was then, which, which, you know, there was something really profound about that experience, because it taught me what women feel like to be objectified, and that's something that has carried me, carried a lesson. I, I find lessons in everything, even things that, wow, you know, what could you possibly learn positive out of having been a male stripper? Well, I learned how women feel, really, to be, you know, not looked at as anything more than an object, and then I really wanted to continue to, you know, pursue music, so a friend of mine, we loaded 65,000 pounds of frozen strawberries onto a semi truck, and like july 3, 1985 and got a ride to San Francisco, a city I'd never been to before. I knew nobody here. We got here, I had 25 cents in my pocket, and I used the 25 cents to call the one friend that I thought I knew that I could get a hold of here in or in in the Bay Area, and it was a wrong number, and so now I'm in a city at the Gray Home Bus Terminal that used to be in downtown San Francisco, we have no food, we have no place to live. We have nothing to, you know, we have nothing, literally. And that's where my journey began. As far as my story, my, my adult life, and my journey in the entertainment industry and the music business, that's how it all started. It started by loading 65,000 pounds of frozen strawberries under semi truck, telling, oh, and the cap around the story is I had worn my contacts for too long and I ripped the corny up both my eyes when I took them out, because I was wearing hard lenses, so I was functionally blind in the city I'd never been to before with patches over my eyes, and being led around by my friend, and luckily we found some very nice people that gave us a place to stay, and then I ended up meeting maybe a week after that, I met my first wife, who was Persian, and we were together for a long time. What was interesting about that is I've been introduced to so many different faiths through the people in my life, and because I haven't judged and tried to learn, like I, I learned through her about Islam, I learned through her about our Torcharianism, and we lived the rock and roll lifestyle for the 16 years we were together. She was a photographer. I wrote for a magazine called BAM. I played in bands. I managed artists like Linda Perry from The Four Non Blonde, or I worked with Linda Perry from Four Non Blondes. I managed Alex Skolnick, who is lead guitar player in Testament, and I did that for a long time until I started getting really disenchanted with music and really started to hate the business and started to hate music because of it, and so I ended up drifting into, I wouldn't say drifting into, I got drawn into visual media, and I started working. I met a guy at a club in San Jose, California, called The Agenda, and we were playing pool, and he was telling me, "Oh, he's the owner of this company called Metropolis Digital, and I was thinking, "My. Speaker 1  24:59 Music and music videos, and yeah, I want to get involved in this, so I started coming up with ideas, and he brought me into their company, because I got to know a lot of people through the music business and booking artists on different shows, like Letterman and Leno, and, and so I got to know how to work through those channels that it opened doors for me to be able to do on-air graphics for the networks, and so I did that until about, in fact, the last major project I did in that industry was with a company called Chaos X AOS out of San Francisco, and we did the 2000 election graphics for ABC nationally, and then I, I, that with the, the, the.com telecom crash of not of 2000 they pulled all of that sort of work in house, and so that business kind of dried up, and I changed my focus to working in local and sustainable foods. Michael Hingson  26:08 What got you to the point where you disliked Music so much? Speaker 1  26:12 The business.. it just.. it wasn't. I came here, and in all honesty, I was looking for the 60s, but I was 20 years too late, only to find out later I was actually 30 years too early, but I was looking for community, I was looking for family, I was looking for that connection, but what existed as far as the music industry then was the 80s hair band stuff, heavy metal was on the rise. It was very misogynistic. It wasn't. It was very competitive. There wasn't, it wasn't collaborative, it wasn't community related at all. And it really turned me off. It wasn't, it wasn't what I had thought being in an artistic community doing artistic endeavors would be about it, became very.. it just.. it just.. it just.. it just made me feel very empty, and that wasn't what I loved about music, and so that Michael Hingson  27:24 would be an issue, Speaker 1  27:25 yeah. It just value wise it was, it was not, you know, you, you got to do a show, and you've got the bands that are coming on after you, you know, playing with your amps, and it was just, it was, it wasn't, it wasn't fun, and it wasn't fulfilling. More importantly, it wasn't fulfilling. It wasn't, and I'm writing about while everyone else is writing about, you know, sex and drugs and all of this. I'm writing about the things that I thought were important. I was writing about the problems I saw in this country, like songs like Shock the System or the chosen few, and, and though that wasn't what people were writing about Michael Hingson  28:06 then, Speaker 1  28:06 and you know, even though the songs were good, and, and I've been told I'm talented, it was, I didn't, I didn't again feel like I fit in, you know, I didn't feel like I'd found my place, and certainly not in that world at that time. If Speaker 2  28:31 you enjoy Unstoppable Mindset and would like to help us continue bringing these conversations to you each week, we've created a way for you to support the show. Your contribution helps us cover production costs and continue sharing stories, insights, and ideas that inspire people to live with purpose and possibility. If supporting the podcast feels right for you, you'll find the link in the show notes. Thank you for being part of the Unstoppable Mindset community. Thank it Michael Hingson  29:04 certainly had to be a rough time all the way around, but then you, you found this person, and you joined their company, as you said earlier, Speaker 1  29:15 right? I started working for Metropolis Digital, and we started doing a lot of on-air graphics, like for TBS. We did their, their original movies. We did a lot of the opening graphics for it, and then I moved on to other companies, and and I, I then started focusing on on local and sustainable foods, and moved into doing stuff where I felt I was doing more, because at the heart of everything I've ever done, it's always been about trying to affect real change in the world, Michael Hingson  29:55 it's Speaker 1  29:55 always been about I could see very clear. Really, it doesn't surprise me where we're at today at all. I saw the problems with the system even at that age, and I give credit to that because of the experience I had with Infinity. It just allowed me to step back and perceive things from a far off perspective that I was looking at humanity in general and how we did things, and I'm just like, this doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any sense for us to believe we're separate and apart from the very things that give us life from each other. It doesn't make sense from a spiritual perspective. It doesn't make sense from a scientific perspective. Yet, here's the system that we are a part of, and so I've always been very focused on trying to effect real change and find not just point out the problems but actually find solutions, and so that then led me into working in local and sustainable agriculture here in the Bay Area. So Michael Hingson  31:00 tell me more about the whole work that you did with Sustainable Foods. What was that all about? Speaker 1  31:08 Yes, I worked with a company, I was, I had handled all the sales and marketing for Drake's Bay Oysters out of Inverness, California, and Drakes Bay, before it was called Drakes Bay, was Johnson's Oysters, and they were the last oyster cannery in California. The family that owned the farm, they had taken it over from Johnson's. They were the Lenny family, who owned Ranch G across from the steroid, where the oyster farm was. Well, they, against my better advice, they made it a personal ownership thing rather than a California food heritage issue. So, eventually, when their lease came up on the rent, on the farm, the farm went away. Well, at the same time, I created new relationships. A very good friend of mine to this day is a gentleman named Brian Kinney, who is now the West Coast Chief Technology Officer for Hearst, and also the Hearst Family Archivist, but at that point in time he was running Hearst Ranch, which they, they had the Jack Ranch and the Hearst Ranch down around San Simeon. So I was at the forefront of the grass-fed beef movement as well, and we developed a human-grade grass-fed beef pet food about 10 years ahead of its time, which could be the story of my life. I'm always about 10 years ahead of where things actually happen, and I, I did that for about 10 years, and eventually I felt the calling to get back in the entertainment industry, and that led me to acting, and I did the acting mostly because I wanted to learn how things were done, and I very well, if I act in a whole bunch of student projects, or projects in general, and I'm behind the scenes, I'm going to learn, and, and that's exactly what happened. So, my very background led me to being a producer, and I created, you know, one of my most notable accomplishments that created this show called Weed Country for Discovery, which was about the medical marijuana industry here in California, just before legalization. How we got it on air before legalization, I don't know. We were named to the Hollywood Reporter top 25 heat list. We got some really great information out about CBD and helping with childhood epilepsy. The bad part of that was it was a reality television show, and I didn't know anything about reality television, so when I'm here in reality, I'm thinking documentary. Well, that couldn't be farther from the truth. And reality television has truly been a blight on on this country in particular, and probably the world in general. Michael Hingson  34:16 Yeah, I just gonna say not nearly as real as people think it is. No, no, I think I think probably this is just my opinion. The closest thing to so-called reality TV is the show Dancing with the Stars, because they're actually dancing all these other shows, and it's all sort of really scripted, but the people are actually dancing, which is kind of cool, Speaker 1  34:41 right? Michael Hingson  34:41 Even though I don't see it, I appreciate it. Speaker 1  34:45 Yeah, but even, even with shows like that, there's a lot of gin-up drama. There is behind the scenes stuff that's the worst part of things. Yes, they're like with our show, yes, people were really, you know, there's really stuff going on with can. Of this world that was really important, but what reality television does is it, it creates artificial drama. It does things to manipulate the characters in the show to make them look how they want, and they know, and people in general, my experience is that people, once you put a camera on them, they will do, they would do things to be in front of the camera that they would never do, even for more money, Michael Hingson  35:27 right, Speaker 1  35:28 in their regular lives. Michael Hingson  35:30 Well, and I think there is, there's a lot of truth to that. And the whole thing, as you said, as far as reality TV, we're not giving people a true picture of reality with most of any of that anyway, which is unfortunate. I think I mentioned I'm a fan of old radio and television, and so on. And one of the shows that I've watched a fair amount is The Old Ridge. Well, it's the second time they were on, but Dragnet with Harry Morgan and, of course Jack Webb as Joe Friday, and they did a lot of shows talking about drugs and marijuana and all that, and how bad it is, and it's kind of interesting because what we're seeing today is that in reality the medical aspects of marijuana or cannabis and CBD oil, and so there's there's true relevance there, which is something that they didn't know or appreciate in the late 60s. Speaker 1  36:31 Well, but the thing that our history with the cannabis plant goes back 50,000 years to Burger Banks, China, it's been, and if we take all of the medicinal recreational uses out of it, it is the most one of the most versatile plants that we have. It was used, I mean, our money was made out of hemp. Hemp is cannabis sativa. Dollar bills are made out of hemp. It was used for fuel. It was used for building. Henry Ford built an entire car out of hemp in 1942 which you can go see the video of on YouTube, and they're beating on it with knacks. The plastic resin they made out of it was 40 times stronger than steel. It ran on hemp fuel, a byproduct of which was water. It also, in 1931 the Hearst family, which was interesting, they ended up working with them, bought and sequestered the plans for a decorification machine that made it easier to process hemp than cotton kids, it's a much more durable fiber. In 1938 covered Popular Mechanics, they called him the billion dollar crop, saying you could make 25,000 different items out of everything from fine linens to dynamite, and that was really what what what, why the prohibition against the plant started. Why they did you know shows like Reefer Madness or create films like Reefer Madness to create this hysteria around, at best, an innocuous plant in comparison to soulmate tobacco, in comparison to alcohol, even if people did want to use it. It's, it's, it's relatively harmless by comparison, or just in general, and actually very beneficial. You know, I have a traumatic brain injury, and I think without it, I probably wouldn't, I probably wouldn't eat very much. I probably wouldn't sleep right, I barely sleep as it is, and sleep I do get is because of cannabis, but beyond my point, and I always try to make this clear to people, is like up until even the prohibition against the plant actually started with the Catholic Church, with the Pope Innocent, who until the 1400s cannabis was in the anointing oils. Cannabis was grown by monks, cannabis was grown by nuns, and then in this pope decreed it the devil's weed, and they, you know, banned it. So it's, it had, and there, and why, and you'd say, well, why did they do that? Well, they did that because at that time in the 1400s you were having opium addiction on the rise, you were having, you know, much, much more alcohol use. Well, these are extremely addictive substances, and much more easy to manipulate and control people than it is with cannabis, which in general creates.. I wish I could remember the quote exactly, but Carl Sagan said, you know, why we have a prohibition on a plant that you know creates good feelings amongst people and unites people is in this, you know. A really crazy world is, is, is madness, but it all comes back to money, and it all comes back to who's profiting. So, why did they create the probation? Well, the hearse, the Rockefellers, and the DuPonts, they saw how hemp would affect each of their industries. We wouldn't need oil if we'd grown hemp and use that as fuel, in fact, it was the Rockefellers who went to Henry Ford and said, "If you take this car to market, we'll crush you. And this was Henry Ford at the height of his power, DuPont chemicals that were.. we wouldn't have needed.. we wouldn't have put like this.. we would not have the planet, the environmental devastation we do now. How do we use this, as Henry Ford said? Why are we digging up, and Henry Ford was certainly no saint, but he was right on this. Why are we digging up our minerals? Why are we cutting down our forests when we can do all the same things with this infinitely renewable resource? This is a part of the canvas story that still is largely not discussed openly enough. Michael Hingson  41:08 Yeah, I think there's a big difference between the story you're telling and the kind of uses you're talking about, and smoking it, and so on, and I, I think we put way too many funny things in our bodies, anyway, right? I think that that isn't this isn't a positive thing, but you're right, we, we've used so many things to create so many fears, it is, it is something that is all around us. Fear is all around us, and the problem is we let it overwhelm us. I wrote Live Like a Guide Dog that got published last year because when I worked in the World Trade Center, I was able to focus when I escaped, and I was able to do that because I had developed a mindset that said, you know what to do in this kind of an emergency, even though never expected it to happen, but the problem is that most people don't learn how they can turn fear around, and rather than letting it overwhelm or blind them, as I would put it, they can use it as a very powerful tool to help them stay focused, which is much more important. Speaker 1  42:23 Yep, I agree with that 100% I think, and then that you hit it right on the head. Fear is a very powerful tool. It's necessary. No, don't touch the burning stove. It can be a cautionary tool of saying, hey, don't go down this path, don't do this. It's bad when fear becomes the foundation for your entire culture, as it is now. Michael Hingson  42:51 Yeah, and and it is so unfortunate because don't touch the burning stove doesn't mean don't be afraid of the stove. It rather means there's a consequence for doing a particular thing, which is touching something that is that hot. But you shouldn't create an environment of fear around it. You should create an environment of understanding, which is much more important. Yeah, it's Speaker 1  43:20 like it'd be, it'd be very silly if we went, oh my god, it's like the stove gets hot, so I'm never going to use a stove. My Michael Hingson  43:29 wife was in a wheelchair her whole life, and the one thing I will say with our modern world is we always had electric appliances because she was always concerned about if using a gas stove, having to reach over one burner, perhaps it had something on it to get to something else with the idea of possibly material igniting or something like that, and I appreciate that, and you take advantage of the tools that you have available, but I think that it is so very important to recognize that we need to not live our lives in fear, and it's true that, like, 95% of all the things that we fear will never come to pass, and most all of it we have no control over anyway. So, why do we fear them rather than recognizing what we really need to do is to just focus on the things over which we truly have control. Speaker 1  44:25 Yes, and I think even the idea of control from my perspective is something that is overrated. It's like the most important thing, if you want to have control, it's exactly what we're talking about, it's when you choose to live from the foundation of love, as opposed to fear. So, no matter what happens to me in my life, and no matter how hard, how challenging it is, I'm going to come from a place of love, and right now. Don't most of us live exactly the opposite. No matter what happens to them in their lives, they're coming from a place of fear. Michael Hingson  45:06 Yeah, and that's Speaker 1  45:08 not healthy. Michael Hingson  45:09 And nowadays we're also living in an environment where we're even afraid to talk to other people and voice opinions, because well, that's not what I think. And so you're wrong, and we don't, we don't respect. Tell me about your just love movement. Speaker 1  45:25 Well, you know, I, I had coming out of the music business and everything, I was, I was literally killing myself drinking, I mean, literally, like, I lost half my liver function, and I was going to die, and, but I wasn't afraid to die. I was.. I realized that if I didn't find a way to feel fulfilled and feel that I was. I had a purpose in the story that I needed to find a quicker way out. I didn't get in any, like, car accidents, I wasn't arrested, nothing. I was just killing myself, and it just got so bad that literally my leg stopped working. That's how, how, how much damage I'd done to myself, and, and so, coming out of that, I made the decision. I wrote down a list of things I was going to do, and one of those things is I was going to start writing every single day, and I, through a variety of different sources, you know, I did that experience with infinity became synonymous with love to me, and then I had an experience where I, I, I started a filmmaking organization called the United Filmmakers Association, and it was basically the philosophy of it was creatives helping creatives create, and was global. We still to this day have chapters 27 different countries, about 30,000 35,000 members total. And I walked into a filmmaking event that we were hosting, and there was about 100 people there, and I realized I was in love with everyone in the room, and it was, it was so like that love, like just when you fall in love, and you're like, you want, you can't imagine not talking to that person at that next minute, and I realized in that moment that this is not only how we can feel about everyone and everything, but how we're really supposed to feel about everyone and everything, and so I came up with the concept of just love, which is, is a very.. it, those are very heavy words to put together, just love. It has so many layers of meaning to it, and so I thought, wow, if we could just love, and from that I I've written every day and shared through social media for 12 years now something having to do with love and what I do is I combine it with other wisdom teachers throughout history who've been sharing the same information and the things I write are literally downloads. They'll come to me in the silence every day, and I haven't missed a day - head injury, sickness, whatever. I haven't missed a day of posting in 12 years about something having to do with love, and Speaker 3  48:37 then Speaker 1  48:37 accompanying posts from other people, far, you know, other beings far more advanced than I am to show that what I'm sharing isn't new. It's been shared forever. It's foundational to what we are. Like love has been so marginalized and trivialized that we, we forget that, like, I, you know, the experience I had with the minister when I was, you know, younger, and I said, well, I thought God was love. I still to this day believe God is love, and God, and we are God. Michael Hingson  49:11 Yeah. Tell me about you. Something you mentioned, you had a traumatic brain injury Speaker 1  49:17 10 years ago. I was, I was in a, I was in, in between projects, so I was driving Uber, and I, a guy, an Uber driver, ran a stop sign in San Francisco and T-boned me, and my head took the brunt of the impact, and I started having really severe neurological problems, severe stabbing pains in my head, my teeth were hurting, I any sort of exertion would leave me just absolutely drained, and so for about three years I was, I was being seen at UCSF, and we never got to the bottom of it, so I was recommended. Um, to a neurosurgeon at Sutter by a counselor I was seen, and I walked in, and within 10 minutes he said, 'Oh, you have trigeminal neuralgian and brain stem damage, and we can do a microvascular decompression, and you're going to be all better. And at that point in time, I was in the middle of getting ready to release a film called A World Worth Imagining, which was about a gentleman named Jacque Fresco, who is considered the Leonardo da Vinci of our time. He founded something called the Venus Project, and we went to his compound in 2017 and he was 101 He was actually contemporary of Einstein. He knew Einstein, brilliant inventor, but at his core, he knew he was a social engineer, and he knew that we had to address our programming if we were ever going to change what was happening in the world and ever be able to avail ourselves of the solutions that he designed of a new economic model called a resource-based economy, because the reality of it is, until we stop self-wounding, there's not enough band aids for the guy that keeps hitting himself in the head the hammer, so we have solutions to all of our problems, but we create problems more quickly than any solution could ever fix, so I was getting ready to release that film, and wow, this sounded like a miracle. I'm going to have this surgery, and I'm going to be all better. Well, it, I had the surgery September 20, 2019 I, it didn't make me better, it made me worse, and it turned out that the surgery was a misdiagnosis, and that they botched the surgery, so I have Teflon implants in my at the base of my skull, inside my brain, that are now constantly agitating my brain stem, along with a titanium plug that is placed right at the junction point to all the major nerves in my head, so they can't undo it, and there's really no medication that helps, and so it's.. it's.. I wouldn't wish it on anyone else. I'm.. I guess I'm.. I'm very fortunate I have the tools I do to manage it, because they also, they call what I'm dealing with the suicide disease, because a lot of people who have it end up killing themselves. The kicker on the whole story is the guy that did my surgery is Elon Musk, partner Neherlich, and so coming soon I'm going to, I unfortunately, I was in two more car accidents at the end of last year that made everything much worse, neither of them were my fault, and once I get through these, these car accidents I'm dealing with, I'm going to go public with my story, because so I mean, in a much bigger, you know, a focused way, because there's so many people signing up for Neuralink, like it's the new iPhone. I have nothing against technology, if it can help you, if you're a paraplegic, and or you have some something that this can fix, great, but two and one, the people, the human test subjects they've tried this on are having tremendous difficulties, and so I want to let people know it's like I wouldn't wish what I'm dealing with on anybody, and for you to allow someone to try to implant something in your brain just because you want to be a cyborg human being, and you're looking at the new iPhone is a really stupid thing to do, and that these people don't. We've given people in technology again. I'm not against technology at all, but I think we've also allowed ourselves to believe that these people who write code and create technology are are gods, and they're not. They're it's just a new way of sharing information and computing things. Speaker 1  54:14 It's, it's, you know, it's just another advancement from the printing press to the radio to tell to television, from the calculator to the computer, and now we're where we're at, and we've allowed ourselves to believe that these people have created an alternative reality, and they have it. Everything that they do runs off the same real world in resources. So, I, I really want to help the mill, because literally millions of people are signed up and ready to have this stuff implanted into their brain and I think it will be a disaster for humanity. Michael Hingson  54:49 I hear what you're saying, and I'm not convinced that a lot of that is really sensible to do either. I think there are tools and there are. There are things certainly that can help people, but I have yet to see that any of this is going to lead to such a tremendous paradigm shift that all of it is going to be all that great for humanity as a whole. I'm not convinced of that at all. Speaker 1  55:17 It could be, but the problem is, is like any other tool, it's how we use it. Social media is an inherently bad thing. It's in here, it's bad because of how we're using it. Sure, because we're using it to divide people and share misinformation, where it could be an incredibly powerful tool for communication, but that's not how we're using it. Same thing with AI. AI could be a tremendously powerful partner in addressing pretty much all of our problems, and I mean, and at the core of, like, Jock's work was the idea that AI basically would manage all the world's resources and share them with equanimity, because we don't have a resource shortage problem, we have a resource sharing problem, but that's not how we're using AI. We're using AI to create fake girlfriends and boyfriends and only fan models, and and take away people's jobs, and and that's not AI's fault. That's the people who control AI's fault, and they want people to be afraid of AI, but again, it's, it's just a tool that's being misused. Michael Hingson  56:24 Well, like, like so many, and, and I hear exactly what you're saying. Tell me about S O U L Speaker 1  56:33 Sold, Soul documentary is really interesting, because the day I got in my car accident was the day I was supposed to meet my partner Evan Hirsch, who had wanted at the time he was looking for a producer to help him do a series on Bernie Sanders and teaching Bernie to not be as angry and come across more from a place of love, and he wanted to follow the campaign around. Well, by the time we got it pulled together, Bernie was out of the campaign, and so we started talking about, well, do we want to do anything together. So we then set about something called Soul Documentary, and originally it stood for Summer of Unconditional Love, because we were covering all of the events for the 50th anniversary of Summer of Love, which was in 2017 So our goal was to find what we called solutionaries, people like Jock, and interview them, and then share also our own understandings of things through hundreds and hundreds of videos that we did over the course of eight years, as well as recording three albums under the name of Soul Twin Messiah, which all were about the same things we were doing. Our films about all founded in love, all about love. Every song contained love in it, and our whole purpose was just to show people we do have solutions to our problems, and to talk about how we have to have a shift in consciousness, and we have to have a new system if we are going to change anything. It's like what Einstein said, to expect things to be different when you keep doing the same thing over and over again is insanity, and I think we see, we see that we live in an insane, a completely insane world right now. I mean, the things that I see happening, and how we've let it sort of creep in, like the things that we've normalized in the past 10 years, like we literally have people that are cheering, murdering people on it's, it's, it's hard for me to, to even fathom, and I think it's hard for most people, and I think that's why they just sort of block it out and allow it to happen, because they really can't process it. They really can't process how inhumane we've become. Michael Hingson  59:06 Well, so what is next for Kip? What's next for you? Speaker 1  59:10 What is boy? I'm mostly trying to get through every day with this head injury. I spend a lot of my time in bed, just because I can't do anything, I, you know, even now I'm, I'm in a lot of pain, and it's beyond pain, it's actually, it literally hurts to think, it's, it's in my brain, and I have swelling in my brain because the cerebral fluid back, anyway, it's so dealing with that, but then the universe keeps love, God, whatever keeps bringing me stuff, and so I, I'm trying right now to be part of putting together a new, let's see, we'll call it Live Aid meets Woodstock. And we're going to, we're trying to put together a global music festival with the focus of addressing the needs of children, because I'm really tired of all this lip service that people do about, oh, kids are a future, we got to care, care about our kids. Well, where is that happening? Where is that happening that we're caring about our kids? Where, you know, is it happening with trying to suppress the Jeffrey Epstein files? Is it happening as you know, you look at, say, the conflict between Israel and Gaza, and I'm not, I don't pick sides and things, but I want to help people understand the reality of the situation, and this goes for Ukraine and Russia as well. It's like, who loses in all of this? Well, the children do. Who wins? The people that are getting $50 billion in defense contracts, and, and I really.. my, I'm at a point in my existence where if my story was over tomorrow, I would be okay with that, if I knew that kid, that the future generations had an opportunity to have a better tomorrow, or at least an opportunity to screw up everything on their own. Michael Hingson  1:01:11 Well, I would like to think it's the first really my Speaker 1  1:01:14 focus is Michael Hingson  1:01:16 I'd like to think it's the first one of those that they have a future rather than screwing it up on their own, but of course, we are. I know, I know, I joke, but, but, but we are a race that doesn't tend to do a very good job of learning from history most of the time. So I hear what you're saying. Speaker 1  1:01:34 Yeah, it's really kind of well, even if people even understood the rise and fall of empires, they would see that we're at the end of the Western Empire. It's, and they follow very specific patterns. The hyper-sexualization of the culture is one of the signs of the end of every empire, and is really kind of interesting, is that they make a free empire, they, and there's a good documentary called The Four Horsemen. It's with Colonel Larry Wilkinson in it, Norm Chomsky, and one of the interesting things that took me a second to understand why this was a bad thing is they make celebrities out of their chefs, and I'm going.. that's kind of a weird sign. Why is that so bad? It's gluttony. It's gluttony because we forget why we do these things. Why? Well, why are we making love? We've forgotten that. It's turned everything's entertainment. Our food is no food is so you eat, and so you can go out and live your life and do things, we've turned everything in, we've removed it so far from the source of why we're doing things, just basically oftentimes just because it makes a buck to get people addicted to things, whether it's food or sex or whatever, that this is what happens in every empire, we become, we become completely detached from the very things we need to survive. Michael Hingson  1:03:09 Yeah, I hear you. If people want to reach out to you, and I hope they do, how will they do that? Speaker 1  1:03:17 Probably easiest way to do that, would be a couple ways. You can, you can find me on Facebook, Kip Baldwin, Instagram, Kip Baldwin. Those are the easiest ways. I also encourage people to look at a website that I have called Lumina Consulting, or Lumina Love dot love is the website Lumina Love dot love, and the whole purpose of the of what I'm doing there is ethical AI, human ethical AI human communications founded in love, because I realized that part of the problem that we're having with AI are the people that control AI, who are making the avatars for their own ego, and AI is a child, it only knows what we point it to look at, like it knows the definition to every book in the library, but who's giving it perspective? Well, the people that are giving it perspective are really broken human beings, you know, the Peter Thiels, Elon Musk, when you really understand who they are in their childhood, Elon Musk was horribly abused. He was, he was almost beaten to death being bullied. His father is a complete monster. The same, the same thing with saving Donald Trump, his mother wouldn't even touch him. You look at most, you look at all of these people that have obscene amounts of wealth, and what you find is truly damaged people are trying to fill the hole in their soul with wealth and fame, and so having these people in control, being the one telling AI what to think and how to pursue. Receive things is very dangerous, and so my goal has been, and I deal with multiple platforms, is to teach AI about love, is to teach AI about philosophy, is to teach AI about human history, and it's really, it's really the results have been really quite remarkable. It wasn't something I ever planned on doing, and but I knew I wanted to get involved with AI in a meaningful way, and so my first words to AI were, I know this may sound strange, because I approached it not asking it to do something for me, I approached it trying to teach it something. Michael Hingson  1:05:35 Right, well, I hope people will reach out and chat with you more and continue the conversation that we started today, but I definitely want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank everyone for listening. Can you believe we've been doing this for more than an hour already? It's pretty cool. Speaker 1  1:05:52 Wow, Michael Hingson  1:05:54 I know. Well, thank you all for listening. I hope, Speaker 1  1:05:57 and I hope, I hope we become new friends, and I really hope you Michael Hingson  1:06:01 keep and I want to, I want to definitely do that, absolutely by any standard, and as Speaker 1  1:06:07 much as we've covered during this hour and 10 minutes or so, we could go another day, or Michael Hingson  1:06:16 I hope all of you will let me know what you think of today, and I hope that you thought very positive thoughts wherever you're listening or watching. Please give us a five star rating, and more important than that, please give us a great review. We love people to review and talk about the stories that they hear. And speaking of telling stories, if any of you want to be a guest, and Kip, if you know of other people who ought to come on the podcast, we're always looking for people to come on and tell their stories and talk about us, so please don't hesitate to do that, Speaker 1  1:06:47 and I'll be more than happy to come back to talk about other things as well. Michael Hingson  1:06:50 Well, we can do that absolutely by in, and I do Speaker 1  1:06:53 want to, I do want to say to everybody, just love each other, it's really that simple, it's really that easy, it sounds only because we've been programmed not to believe in it, but when you move from fear to love, it transforms you entirely. Michael Hingson  1:07:09 Great way to end. Well, thank you again for being here. We really appreciate it. Speaker 1  1:07:14 Thank you, my friend. Michael Hingson  1:07:17 Thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to michaelhingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them, so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. 1:08:18 Thank

What if being unstoppable has less to do with confidence and more to do with self-awareness? I had the pleasure of sitting down with Zarko Dimitrioski, a media entrepreneur, actor, talk show host, and marketing agency founder from Macedonia. Zarko shares how growing up as a child television star shaped his confidence, the lessons he learned about ego and leadership, and why experience is often the greatest teacher. We explore marketing, branding, mentorship, business growth, and the value of listening before speaking. Zarko explains how companies build lasting brands, why accountability matters, and how entrepreneurs can thrive even in smaller markets. Along the way, we discuss family, responsibility, personal growth, and what it truly means to develop an unstoppable mindset. I believe you will find his insights on leadership, branding, communication, and lifelong learning both practical and inspiring. Highlights: 01:45 - How a childhood acting career sparked a lifelong passion for media and communication. 07:08 - Why confidence without self-awareness can become a liability. 16:32 - Lessons from the Kellogg School of Management that still shape business decisions today. 21:58 - Why listening beats talking in business, leadership, and life. 35:08 - How strong brands grow through awareness, not just loyalty programs. 01:05:02 - The three traits Zarko looks for when mentoring future leaders. About the Guest: Zarko Dimitrioski is a Macedonian entrepreneur, marketer, and talk-show host who helps brands turn attention into sales. As Managing Partner of BDG Grupa, a full-service creative, digital, and production agency in Skopje, he leads cross-functional teams that deliver end-to-end campaigns for regional and international clients. His operating principle is simple: pair strong product truth with clear, persuasive communication—and measure what matters. In media since the age of six, first as a prominent child-actor, Zarko has hosted One on One (Eден на Еден) for 17 years—the longest-running TV talk show in the country—with Season 17 launching in November 2025. On stage he has addressed audiences from intimate rooms to crowds of 50,000+, relying on a steady system of preparation, calm, and trust whether he’s interviewing, keynoting, or directing a brand campaign. Zarko is a Kellogg School of Management alumnus (Northwestern University). He holds college degrees in both Economics and Journalism and a master’s degree in Marketing. He serves on the Management Board of the Macedonian Economic Chamber. Honors include Entrepreneur of the Year 2017 (Macedonian Chambers of Commerce and Ministry of Finance) and Forbes 30 Under 30 Europe 2018—Media & Marketing. Under his leadership, BDG has become a premium partner to leading brands across finance, FMCG, tech, and retail. The agency delivers strategy, creative, social, video and animation, media, and performance marketing under one roof, and often acts as a fast, cost-efficient production hub for network agencies such as Luna/TBWA and for UK partners who value BDG’s quality-to-cost advantage. A lifelong student of behavioral economics and effectiveness, Zarko designs work that reduces friction, frames value intelligently and moves real numbers. He’s passionate about inclusive, accessible content—because it’s both right and higher-performing. Building from a small market taught him focus, pragmatism, and speed. He enjoys collaborating with teams who want practical creativity and a low-risk trial that proves value fast. Ways to connect with Zarko: email: [email protected]: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zarkodimitrioski/agency website: https://bdg-agency.com/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What happens when heartbreak becomes the starting point for a whole new purpose? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with Heather Christie, author, educator, entrepreneur, and founder of Love Notes, a storytelling movement built around real stories of real love. Heather shares how commuting alone to New York City as a teenager shaped her independence, why she walked away from her creative dreams after marrying young, and how writing helped her rediscover herself after the end of a 30-year marriage. We explore storytelling, resilience, creativity, publishing, relationships, and the power of authentic human connection. You will hear how Heather transformed loneliness into hope through Love Notes, an off-Broadway storytelling series that is now expanding across the country and helping people reconnect with the many forms love can take. Highlights: 01:25 - Learn how early independence shaped Heather’s confidence and resilience. 16:03 - Discover why staying true to yourself matters in life and relationships. 19:29 - Hear how heartbreak inspired a search for real love stories. 27:21 - Learn how writing helped Heather reconnect with her creativity. 32:35 - Discover the mindset that helped her push through years of rejection. 47:17 - Hear what Heather believes is at the heart of real love. About the Guest: Heather Christie is a speaker, writer-producer, educator, and the creator of LoveNotes! — Real Stories. Real People. Real Love.®—an Off-Broadway storytelling show that’s expanding through satellite productions alongside an award-winning anthology. An award-winning YA author, she wrote What The Valley Knows and The Lying Season, which debuted as an Amazon #1 bestseller in Young Adult Soccer Fiction. Her essays have appeared in Salon, NextTribe, Writer’s Digest, Baltimore Style, Scary Mommy, Elephant Journal, The Good Men Project, Grown & Flown, Baltimore Child, Parent.co, Her View From Home, the Erma Bombeck Writers’ Workshop, and The Lighter Side of Real Estate. Heather holds a BA in Literary Studies from UT-Dallas and an MFA from Pine Manor College. She is CEO of SocRoc Soccer and an adjunct lecturer at the City University of New York. Ways to connect with Heather: Website: www.LoveNotesWorldwide.com & www.HeatherChristieBooks.com Instagram:@_heatherchristie/lovenotes_worldwideFacebook: @heatherchristiebooks / @LoveNotesWorldwideLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/heather-christie-mfa-4b976049/LoveNotes! AnthologyWhat The Valley Knows (book)The Lying Season (book) About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:06 John, thank you for being here with me on Unstoppable Mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about. If you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, Blinded by Fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them, so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review, and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. Hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of Unstoppable Mindset. Today we get the opportunity and the honor of chatting with Heather Christy, and Heather, Heather is an author. She and her brother have formed a company, so she's clearly an entrepreneur. She's acted, she's a keynote speaker, and I don't know what all we're going to find out in the next hour or so, but definitely an exciting person to get a chance to chat with. So, Heather, welcome to Unstoppable Mindset. We're glad you're here. Speaker 1  01:47 Thank you, Michael. I'm so honored that we're going to have a conversation today. Michael Hingson  01:52 And Heather lives in New York City, she lives in Manhattan, or as we all know it, the city. And before we started this, we were talking about the fact that winter is coming everywhere. Ah, well, what do you do as long as you don't get too much snow back there? Speaker 1  02:11 Yeah, the winters have been pretty mild here the last couple years, so see what happens. Michael Hingson  02:16 Yeah, time will tell. Well, why don't we start? Tell us about the early Heather growing up in some of those things. Speaker 1  02:22 Okay, well, as a young person, I, I wanted to be an actress, and I grew up in a really small rural town, about two hours due west of New York City, in Pennsylvania. It's called the Holy Valley. Michael Hingson  02:37 What town? Speaker 1  02:39 Oh, it's called Oli Oley Valley, it's actually a Michael Hingson  02:42 valley. Okay, Speaker 1  02:43 historic site. And so I had a really interesting sort of upbringing, because I, before it was really in vogue, I was on a work-study program, and I would spend half my day in this small Pennsylvania town, and then I would jump on a bus - it was called the Bieber Bus back then - and drive to New York City on the bus, and that was like two to two and a half hours each way, get off in the, you know, huge metropolis of New York City, go on auditions, go sees, or if I had a booking, I'd do the booking, and then I would jump back on the bus and go all the way back to rural Pennsylvania, and that's how I spent like all my high school years was back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, and then I actually graduated early. I graduated halfway through my senior year. I had enough of my credits done that I'd actually, the first half of my senior year, I went to community college, and I took a class in the evenings, so I could be done by Christmas break, and the only requirement I still needed to fulfill was my physical fitness, so I ended up moving to New York City, and then I would take my physical fitness classes at Steps Dance Studio, and then I was still able to graduate with my class in June, but I was living in New York City from January on of what would have been senior year. Yeah, so it was like the early me, and the one thing that was sort of interesting when I was on the work study, my mom was a mathematician, and my dad was a an ER doctor, so they actually tutored me. My mom tutored me in math, and my father tutored me in chemistry. And then, like my history teacher back back in the day, we had Walkmans, and he would record his three lessons on a Walkman, and I would listen to them on the bus back and forth from New York. Michael Hingson  04:43 Yep, Lockmans were the big thing back in time. Sony created a very clever thing, but as with everything, the technology has advanced beyond that. Now Speaker 1  04:58 that's right. Yeah, now my kids. Wouldn't even recognize a Walkman, Michael Hingson  05:02 they wouldn't recognize a cassette either. Speaker 1  05:05 That's right, yeah, it would be like an ancient artifact. Michael Hingson  05:08 What's really strange is there are a lot of people who don't even really know anymore what CDs are. Speaker 1  05:14 That's true, yeah. Michael Hingson  05:16 Much less, well, and DVD is sort of going the same way, it hasn't quite got there, but we, we are new now, moving more into streaming and things like that, but, gee, what a crazy world. Well, so you went through high school, basically commuting to New York. What did your parents think of that? Speaker 1  05:35 Well, I was one of four children, I was the oldest child, and what's remarkable is in the beginning, my mother would go with me, but it was hard to do that, and have you know three other children at home, so by the time I was 15 I was doing it on my own, and when I.. it's just like such a different culture that children are raised in now, there's sort of this idea that we, we can't let them kind of do their own thing, you know, like there's, we're so follow every move and thing they do, but that was like a lot of independence my parents granted me at such a young age, and so they thought, I mean, it was great, and they gave me the support I needed, but at the same time they allowed me to be really independent at a pretty young age. I know when I tell people, "Oh, yeah, I moved to New York City when I was 17 by myself, they're like, "And your parents let you do that? And New York, and this was in the late 80s, early 90s, and New York was like a whole different place, like when I get off the bus at Port Authority back then, like now that whole strip Times Square is kind of sanitized and disified, but back then it was, it was a little rough, Michael Hingson  06:56 it was a lot of X-rated things, and all that, I did some commuting more in the early 90s. I sold products, and I would travel back to New York, because that's where I sold to. I traveled from California, and I remember it was there was a lot of stuff on 42nd Street that was very X-rated, and so on, a lot different than the musical 42nd Street, but that's okay. Speaker 1  07:20 That's right, yeah, Michael Hingson  07:21 but it is a lot, a lot cleaner now than it was, and I remember times I would go out of my hotel and there would be people who would say you really shouldn't be walking around on your own, and why not, and they said, well, because it's pretty dangerous here, and you know, the the angels that that were out there insisted on escorting me everywhere I went, just because they were concerned about me, and I wasn't, although I understand the the situation, but I wasn't going to go in the middle of Central Park at night either, so you know, Speaker 1  07:58 right, and I was a lot the same for me. I remember, though, getting.. I would get off the bus at the Port Authority, for people who know you, New York City, it's on Eighth Avenue, and then I would feel like I wasn't like fully safe until I could get to Lord and Taylor, which was on Sixth Avenue. Yeah, and then it felt like everything got a little bit safer and calmer, the energy changed. Michael Hingson  08:23 Yeah, Speaker 1  08:23 that Michael Hingson  08:24 was a lot different. You could always go to St. Patrick's Cathedral for refuge too. So, but yeah, the Port Authority was an interesting place to go, and I understand. Well, how did.. how did all that affect you, and how did, how does what you did back then kind of affect you in the way you think today, especially with children and so on? Would you give them that same level of independence today? Speaker 1  08:52 That's a really interesting question. And my children are a little older than I was at that time now, but I do think about when they were 15, 1616, years old, and if I'm to answer the question really honestly, I don't know that I would have. I just feel like, and I don't know what's changed about society that makes it that way, that and part of it I think is maybe like the news cycle just is constantly highlighting everything that's wrong and fear based that that's what we see and it's in our faces so much more because we have all this access to it through social media that it it creates sort of this, this like undercurrent in parenting that, that we're, that we're oftentimes afraid, like, what could happen to our children. So, I don't know if I actually would have let them commute like that by themselves, you know? Like, yeah, I don't think I would have. Michael Hingson  09:56 Yeah, it's definitely different now than it was then, and. And I think you're right with especially the news cycle and also in reality there's there's so much gun violence and other stuff going on and I ask people when we talk about it I ask is it really that there's more now or it's just more visible in the news, and I'm not sure that it's just visibility. I think there is more stuff going on, and it's not being stopped nearly as effectively or as aggressively as it should be, and it does make it a scarier world. It's tougher, I think, by far to be a kid now than it was when you were a kid, much less I believe when I was growing up. We just didn't see the kinds of things that we see today, and I don't think it's all just exposure from the news. I think there's there's some truth to the fact that that there are other issues going on, Speaker 1  11:00 right, that it actually is a more dangerous world that we live in. Michael Hingson  11:03 Yeah, and I think that it is something that we do have to think about, and hopefully someday sanity will come back to it all. I agree, I'm of the opinion that eventually it will, but you know, so that's cool. But, but still, we have to do what we do, but I also think that we can't stifle our children, we have to give them the opportunity to grow. It may be that you might, when your children were the age you were, you might have decided, well, one of us just has to go with you all the time, and we're going to just to keep an eye on you, or you have other people that help, but I think being so aggressively smothering that you don't let children grow is a problem too. Speaker 1  11:53 Yeah, I agree. I think that's, I mean, there's that saying, and maybe I'll get it right, or maybe I'll get it wrong here, that we need to give our children roots and wings, Michael Hingson  12:02 yeah, Speaker 1  12:02 and that's the challenge, is to find the balance, Michael Hingson  12:06 yeah. Well, and so for you, you were given a lot of independence. How did that shape kind of your attitude, and how does it shape the way you look at life today? Speaker 1  12:20 Well, that's a really great question, and for all the independence that I had as a young person, and maybe, maybe I was given too much independence in some ways, because I, I ended up marrying very young, and and I often wonder, like, had my parents not given me as much independence, if I would have done that, but yeah, I still think I'm very independent now, and I've tried to instill that in my children as well, and I think they're, they're really great kids, and they've launched really well, which I know is a common problem with today's young adults, is the this sort of inability to to launch, and I, I feel really good. My both my kids have done that and done it well. Michael Hingson  13:15 Well, and all you can do is your best, Speaker 1  13:19 right? Michael Hingson  13:20 I think we don't do this nearly as much as we should, but it ultimately comes down to, you know, kids want all sorts of independence, and so on. Parents are, are.. I'm talking about parents who really think about what they do, they may not want children to have that much independence, but I think the key is that you really need to communicate with your kids and teach them what's going on and why, Speaker 1  13:48 right. I think that's it's to be open and transparent with, with our children is very, and to have like the hard conversations and give them a safe space in which they can speak to Michael Hingson  14:02 the other side of that is that we should hold them to the same standard and say when you have issues and so on, we're here, we're not going to judge you, you need to have the hard conversations with us too. And I don't think we do nearly as much of that. I know when I was growing up, we had a lot of conversations. Of course, I was blind. I've been blind my whole life, and I encountered a lot of different things growing up, and my parents were glad to talk with me about blindness, and glad to talk with me about different things about independence, and it also was true that they allowed me to be independent. I mean, I rode my own bike around the neighborhood, and some other.. I'm not the only blind kid that did that in the world, but in my town I was brand.. and I think that, you know, I'm. Sure, that I was watched, but parents didn't interfere. I mean, I even fell off the bike a couple times until I really learned how to ride it, but they allowed me to have the opportunity to grow, and I think that there is a way to do that without, without, well, without stifling your kids, and that you can, you can let kids grow, and we should really emphasize curiosity a lot more than we do. Speaker 1  15:29 I agree, I think that's really important, is to give kids the space to grow and encourage curiosity. Michael Hingson  15:36 Yeah, we don't probably do that nearly as much as we ought to, well, so you mentioned you got married at 19. Well, I guess that's a little young, but, but you did that, huh? Speaker 1  15:48 I did. Yes, I did. I married young. Michael Hingson  15:54 How did that work out? Speaker 1  15:56 Well, it, it worked out for a little, well, it worked out for a while. I stayed married a really long time, but I eventually divorced 30 years later, and part of that had to do with I was, I did marry young, but my ex-husband also had some addictions that you know in time just became too hard to manage, so that ended the thing, and he Michael Hingson  16:29 wouldn't, and he wouldn't deal with them Speaker 1  16:31 well. At one point, I mean, we'll ask a lot of times in relationship with addicts, you kind of, there are times when they deal with them, and then times when they don't, Michael Hingson  16:39 right? Speaker 1  16:40 Yeah, so ultimately it dissolved. Michael Hingson  16:44 It's too bad when things happen. Speaker 1  16:47 That's right, yeah, but I'm grateful for the the union, because it produced my two great kids. Michael Hingson  16:56 And what, what else did being married for 30 years teach you? Speaker 1  17:01 Well, wow, that's a great question. I think probably it taught me most of all it's a lesson learned, sort of, that you really need to be true to yourself and listen to yourself, because I think deep down we know, and my I was always trying, like, to try harder, if I just try harder, you know, things will get better, but there's part of me deep down that knew I was sort of trying harder for everybody else but myself. And when I left New York, I had given up everything I'd worked on, and in, you know, in hindsight, when I look back, I, it was in a way I sort of abandon all my dreams and hopes, and ultimately I don't think that's a good thing when you give up yourself for someone else. Michael Hingson  17:50 So, after you got married, what did you do? Where did you go? Speaker 1  17:54 Well, my ex-husband was a professional soccer player, so we ended up going around the United States, he played for a couple different teams, and I went to college, and I finished my degree at the University of Texas, and then I, I did a couple things, I was a flight attendant, and I eventually fell into real estate, and worked in real estate for a long, long time, but along the way, I, there was a, there was a point where I kind of really missed that young creative person that I had started out my life as, and I'd always loved books and lacher, and my undergraduate degree was in literary studies, and I started writing stories, and then at midlife went back to graduate school for a master's of fine arts in creative writing, and and started writing. So I was, I was always doing a bunch of things. I was a real estate broker, I was managing a company, and then I was, I was writing, and began writing novels on the side. Michael Hingson  18:58 What was your bachelor's degree in Speaker 1  19:00 literary studies. Michael Hingson  19:02 Oh, okay, Speaker 1  19:03 yeah. Michael Hingson  19:04 So, you never did get degrees in what either of your parents did. Speaker 1  19:09 No, no, no, Michael Hingson  19:10 you weren't that into math. Speaker 1  19:12 No, not at all. No, I always liked words, words. Michael Hingson  19:16 Yeah, I understand. I do pretty well with math, but by the same token, I've been learning more about words, having now written three books, and appreciate it. I also like to collaborate, so when I write, I generally write with someone. I think that the team approach works, at least it does for me, and there are a lot of people who don't use a second person on their team, other than their publishers, editors, and so on, but for me the collaborative way works, which is fine. Speaker 1  19:49 I've had a little bit more experience later now in my creative career, because I've, and maybe we'll talk about this in a little bit, but I've started producing storytelling shows, so I. Work with the storytellers in helping them in their stories, so that's a much more collaborative exercise, and one one I really enjoy. Michael Hingson  20:09 Yeah, well, well, let's, let's, you know, we could talk about it now. What the heck, we don't have to do this in a linear way. Tell me about storytelling. What you think about storytelling. Why is it so important, and so on. Speaker 1  20:25 Well, for me, so the storytelling that I do, I'm working on this project called Love Notes, which real stories by real people about real love, and that came to me during the darkest, loneliest period of my life. It was, you know, after the disillusion of this 30 year marriage, and I was really despondent and, and disillusioned, and thinking, you know, like, does love even exist, and what does it look like, and I just, I just really didn't even believe in love anymore, and being in the storytelling community, I produced some storytelling shows, stories about motherhood. I put out a call to writers and actors and just regular people to share their true love stories, and so from that, people started sending me all these true stories, they had to be 1000 words or fewer, and so to answer your question, like, what does storytelling do in, in this case, I think story, storytelling, it's different than other mediums, like the personal essay or the novel, it's, it's a, it's a testament, it's a first person testament, and what's really great when you see the different storytelling communities around the country is anybody can do it, and so that's part of the beauty of storytelling. Michael Hingson  22:00 I think the key is, though, it has to be a genuine story. Making it up isn't the same thing, Speaker 1  22:06 right? And that's the difference, right? Because people will write a short story or story thing, but in storytelling, you're exactly right, Michael. It needs to be a true story, and that's what makes it so compelling, and I think so relatable, is that people can see themselves in other people's stories, so like in my case it was a way, it was like the evidence, the proof of love, like what it really looks like as it walks around in the world, Michael Hingson  22:36 so that's it, sounds like changed your view of love, and that you believe in love again. I Speaker 1  22:46 do, I do, and it's it, and even like during the first season of Love Notes, because we do an off-Broadway show here in Manhattan, and we have an anthology, a companion anthology. I remember that first year, like some I'd wake up in the morning and just like be not despondent but upset, like, oh, like this doesn't happen. And then literally there was like a little voice in my head that would say, oh well, don't you remember Stacey's story or Sarah's story? And it was like just like the the universe providing this evidence and this this proof and just hearing enough stories and story after story, yeah, it really did fortify my belief in love, and that love is for everyone, and it comes like from all these different angles, and when you least expect it, and it shows up in so many different forms. Michael Hingson  23:43 Yeah, well, and I think there's there's a lot of merit to that. I know when I was writing this last book that I wrote, which is entitled Live Like a Guide Dog: True Stories from a Blind Man and His Dogs, about being brave, overcoming adversity, and moving forward in faith, I spent a lot of time talking about each of the eight guide dogs that I've had and the lessons I learned from them, and also using those lessons in the book to show the importance of different aspects of what happens in our lives, but I have maintained for years I've learned a lot more about life and learned about leadership and teamwork. I've learned a lot more from these dogs than I ever learned from all the experts in the world, and that's primarily because we'll have some interesting observations. One, I allow my dogs to express themselves, but they also learn what the rules are. Because dogs really want to hear from humans, they want humans to set the rules, they want humans to be the pack leaders, by and large, and they want humans to be the ones to say this is what I expect, but when. That relationship forms, and it forms well. There's it's second to none, and you learn so much. Dogs love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally, but they're open to trust, and we're not. And we really should learn to be more open to trust, and just so many different kinds of things. It has really given me a lot of pause to think over the past several years, while we were writing the book, and, and I, and I think about it now. There are a lot of neat stories in there that really ultimately are love stories in one way or another, and I think that makes a lot of sense. Speaker 1  25:36 Oh, that's so.. I'm actually a new dog owner, well, not too new, I.. I'm for the first time in my adult life have a dog, and I just.. it's such a wonderful, like, experience, and it's opened me up to, yeah, like so many different levels of love. Michael Hingson  25:53 Yeah, dogs want to establish a relationship, but as I said, I don't think that they are open to just trusting they do pretty much love unconditionally, unless something just totally traumatizes them. But trusting is a different story, and that's a trust that has to be earned both ways. It's not just us earning their trust, but they're earning our trust, and the people who really take that to heart and develop that relationship and think about it, find that they have a bond that's really second to none. It's as close to knit a team as you could ever find. Speaker 1  26:35 That's beautiful. Michael Hingson  26:37 So, it's a lot of fun. What kind of dog do you have? Speaker 1  26:40 I have, well, because remember I'm in a small New York City. I have a teacup poodle. Michael Hingson  26:46 Oh, so it isn't a Saint Bernard, okay? Speaker 1  26:49 And she's, she's an eye, she's a, she's a character. She, she acts like she's a cross between a teacup and a pit bull when she's in the, when she's out on the street. She does not like she's a scaredy cat on the street. She would prefer to be carried when we're on the street, so she's got sort of a split personality, but she, and she doesn't take too many people. So, just like you were saying, I can identify with that, like the whole trust element, and she's, she only trusts a few people. Michael Hingson  27:25 Yeah, well, trust isn't something that happens overnight. I've maintained for a long time. I think it takes a good year for me when I am meeting a new guide dog. I think it takes a good year for the trust to become so seamless that we really know what each other is thinking, and I think that we really do understand each other. There's a lot of empathy there, Speaker 1  27:52 that's really great. So, Michael Hingson  27:53 I think it's, it is kind of cool. Well, so, but going back to you getting married and all that, so you gave up for a while a lot of your dreams, that that must have, whether it was conscious or not, been a little bit frustrating. Speaker 1  28:08 Yeah, and I didn't realize it at the time. It was only later, like when my younger self sort of came calling, and I had given up a lot for this marriage that didn't really turn out the way I had hoped, and yeah, so writing was a way for me to find myself again, was not only a refuge during that time in my life when I wasn't really happy, but it also really opened up that whole creative part of myself, which felt really good, and it's, you know, it's been something now I've been working on for the last decade and a half, Michael Hingson  28:57 but it sounds like you didn't really, or at least consciously you didn't really know that you were unhappy. Speaker 1  29:03 No, I didn't, and that's a really interesting observation that that you make, because you know, I had my children, I loved my children, and I loved being a mom, and I had a really fulfilling career, but there was something missing, you know, and I wasn't really able to put my finger on that until I started writing, and then it became more and more obvious that, yeah, this is the part that was missing, this, you know, who you had thought you were going to be a creative, you, you had denied that, and you're right, so it wasn't really conscious, but, like, once I sort of, it started to become more noticeable to me, then it sort of came back with a vengeance. Michael Hingson  29:49 How much writing did you do before you got married? Speaker 1  29:53 Before.. well, I really didn't, because I was more in the.. I read a lot. Lot, and, but I was more into that, the acting, so I didn't really, I mean, I would write some really bad poetry, but not anything. I know some writers will say they were writing from the time they were six years old, but I, it didn't come to me till much later. Michael Hingson  30:16 So, what got you started back writing after your marriage ended, what was the trigger that made that happen? Speaker 1  30:25 Writing and the marriage, it was like the last 10 years of, of my marriage, I was writing, and it's, I sort of wrote my, my way out of the marriage in a way, but what was the trigger, and I do remember there wasn't an absolute trigger. I had a friend who had self-published a book. Michael Hingson  30:45 Okay, Speaker 1  30:46 I was like a friend of a friend. And one afternoon, it was a summer afternoon, we were over at her house because she had been hired to go to an elementary school and do a presentation, and so we were brainstorming and about what she could do at this presentation, and I went home from that, and I was like, I felt like so energized again. I was like, wow, well, I could do this, I could write a children's book, and so I sat down, and I wrote this book called Beatrice Bumblebee is busy. I didn't know anything about publishing, and I thought to myself, okay, well, now I'll just write it, and I'll send it to publishers, and I'll get it published. Well, it was promptly rejected by every single publisher, and I knew nothing about the publishing that point, but it was enough of a spark. And then I did start just sort of playing around, and I had this scene in my head of a girl, like a young girl who's been in a car accident, and she's on the side of the road losing consciousness, and she has this terrible secret that she wants to tell her boyfriend, and this, the scene, it was like a dark, wet Pennsylvania night, and it was an autumn, and like, I could see the mist, and so I had written this scene, and I remember giving it to my father, who was a huge reader, and he's like, well, Heather, this is really good. Why don't you keep trying to work on it? And, and so I did, and I love school, so I was like, well, I don't know how to write, like, how can I learn how to write? And then I sort of discovered, oh, well, there's these MFA programs, and so I ended up applying, and and going back to school, and then it was in my MFA program, where I wrote the first draft of my first novel, but yeah, so the actual trigger was a friend who had published a self-published a book, and it really kind of triggered something in me. Michael Hingson  32:38 Whatever happened to Beatrice Bumblebee is busy, Speaker 1  32:41 she is in a drawer, but I do keep.. I have here on my bulletin board. I'll pull it down if we're on camera. I have this little bumblebee, it's like a rhinestone bumblebee that I keep stuck on my bulletin board as just a reminder that the address in my life. Michael Hingson  33:07 Well, are you ever going to publish it? Speaker 1  33:10 Oh, I don't think it's very good, Michael. Michael Hingson  33:12 Okay, well, maybe you should go back and rewrite it, but Speaker 1  33:16 then, and maybe if I have grandchildren someday, maybe I'll, I'll be, yeah, that's kind of interesting that you say that. Maybe I will go back and just look at it. It would be fun to look at it all these years later. Michael Hingson  33:32 Yeah, well, so you got rejected a whole bunch, which is a pretty common story. What did you learn from that? Speaker 1  33:42 Well, and I do, I do talks at different places, and one of the talks I say is I started with the, you know, Calvin Coolidge said most of humanity's problems can be solved with two simple words, press on, and and that's what I learned through the process. My first book was on submission for like 520 weeks before it finally found a publisher, and it was every degree of rejection that you can get when you're publishing, you know, I'm, and for people who understand the publishing hierarchy, you know, the coveted placement is to land a book deal with one of the big five traditional publishers, and then from there it works its way way down, and we had gotten close on some of the big fives and other places where we'd made it to acquisitions, and we finally ended up with a small indie publisher, but it took so long, and it was so soul crushing in a way, and not so much the first book, and the first book I was still like super, super hopeful, and then once it was published, it did go on, and it won the new. National Indy Excellence Award, and I kind of was always thinking of it as a, you know, a stepping stone, a stepping stone, and that the second book would, would land the big publishing deal, and the second book took just as long, and it ended up right back with the same publisher, so the rejection taught me, yeah, that you just need to keep going. I mean, sometimes people hit really easily, or you know, the way the wind's blowing that day, whatever's on trend or top of mind, and, and sometimes it doesn't, but you have to do it because you, you love it, and you're called to do it. Michael Hingson  35:46 When you were getting rejected, did you get any substantive feedback that helped, or do do publishers do much of that? Speaker 1  35:54 Well, actually, I did, especially on my second book, and on the first book, too, it depends how interested they are in the book, and I did have a couple that were pretty interested and gave what's called like an editorial letter, and oftentimes they won't even do that unless you're under contract, but I did have a couple that had liked it enough, so on my second book, especially my agent and I then took that information and did some like hard edits and rewrites, but that's not always the case. I mean, and I have a lot of friends who are also in the business, sometimes you don't get any, any feedback. Michael Hingson  36:39 So now all together, how many books have you written? Speaker 1  36:42 Well, I've written two, and then I've edited and curated the anthology, the Love Notes anthology, Michael Hingson  36:48 right? Speaker 1  36:49 Which, and I've written a small bit of that. Um, yeah, so I'd like to say three books. Michael Hingson  36:54 Are there more books in you? Okay, Speaker 1  36:58 for sure. We have, you know, we'll. well, first, the second, the second Love Notes edition, I'm definitely editing and curating the stories for that, and that's through a small publisher. And then I have been really sort of toying around with, like, what's my next book, and my first two books were young adult romance, mystery, and thriller, and I kind of think I'm done with that genre, so I have talked about an adult, adult fiction, or even a that would go kind of hand in hand with Love Notes, the my story type of book, you know, rebuilding after divorce and being on, you know, what the space that love notes came out of, and going on, you know, hundreds of dates, and what that, that looked like, but that's in a very sort of nebulous state. It Michael Hingson  37:54 will be fun to see what happens. You'll have to keep us all posted, Speaker 1  37:58 yeah, for sure. Michael Hingson  38:00 But you've, you've described your creative journey, your whole creative journey is basically transforming heartbreak into healing. Tell me more about that. Speaker 1  38:14 Yeah, like I touched on earlier, Love Notes came out as sort of this really dark, lonely time in my life. My 30 year marriage had ended. My children had both left for college, and I'd relocated to New York City. So I was living alone for the first time in my adult lifetime. I was 19 years old, and New York can be a really.. for as many people who live here, it can be a really lonely place. I was really, really starting over, and I started dating at midlife, is, you know, it's not for the faint of heart, and I was going on a lot of dates, and just really discouraged by the whole process, and, like, I had sort of mentioned earlier, that's where I kind of was like almost indignant, like you know, I want proof, like show me proof that that love is real, and and that's where this this call to like look for people's love stories came from, so I do say it, it truly came out of a place of of loneliness and darkness, and then hope, though, too. You know, I was hoping I wanted to, I wanted, I wanted the stories to give me proof. I wanted them to be the evidence, and then, and then that sort of became a calling that, well, then I want to share that with other people and give other people hope, and that's been the most gratifying part for me is when somebody like they come to the show and the shows are really great, these storytelling shows, and now I've started to franchise them, so we have them popping up in some other cities, and I've gone around to some of the other cities, in fact, if you have any listeners who. When I produce a love note show, but the audience members, they're like, "Oh, wow, this, this was.. they don't expect it, first of all, coming into it, and everybody walks out feeling good, and that is like so gratifying to me, that, like, you know, in this, in these like divisive times, that they can come to a show, they can recognize part of the human experience, and they can walk out feeling uplifted and Speaker 2  40:25 hopeful, and that some readers, Speaker 1  40:27 you know, in the book do that too, like having read the book, and someone will reach out and say, "Oh, well, that just really gave me hope. So, hope that answers the question a little bit. Michael Hingson  40:40 Does it? Does it? Does get so the two books that you've written are what the Valley Knows and The Lying Season. Tell me more about those. What the interesting titles, to say the least. Speaker 1  40:52 Yeah, okay, so the both books are they're not ones, they're not a sequel and a prequel, but I would call them a series, because they're both in this fictional town of Millington Valley, which is much like the small town I grew up in, the Oley Valley, and it's all set around this high school, so the peripheral characters in the book stay the same, like the English teacher and the principal, but the kids, you know, because kids are only in high school for four years at a time, so different kids kind of like move through both of the books, they're both mysteries or are thrillers, and they both have like a big kind of like moral question at their center, both sent it set in this Millington Valley, which is a small Pennsylvania town, Michael Hingson  41:45 right? And they're, they're for juveniles, primarily. You said, I think, right. Speaker 1  41:52 Well, they are. They'd be considered young adults. What the valley knows, that's told from three point of views: two kids, and then one of the kids' mothers, so it has a lot of crossover appeal. So you and that book originally started at six point of views, and that was when I was in graduate school, and I remember my professor saying to me, Well, Heather, that's that's just too ambitious to try to do for your first book, you need to cut it down, and, and just whoever's story has to be there, that's the point of view you, you include, and so it kind of fell into the young adult category by accident, but I have a lot of adult readers who, who it really resonates as well, Michael Hingson  42:43 yeah. You know, I know a lot of people say, especially the early ones, the Harry Potter books are for more young adults, and so on, but I certainly had no problem enjoying them as a full-fledged, real-life middle-aged adult. So I think there's a lot that we can learn by stretching and not necessarily just falling into the trap of reading one kind or, or one sort of book that's, oh, this is for more adults or this is more for for children. Think there's a lot to be learned all the way around. Speaker 1  43:17 I think you're, you're right, Michael, and that's it's kind of like a modern thing that we do, like classifying books as adult fiction, like when we think about Catcher in the Rye, like what would that be considered now? Because the protagonist is a young adult, would it be considered a young adult book? But yeah, that's a really great point that you're making. Michael Hingson  43:40 Well, so you, you wrote these books, and you said that, so they've been published, and I assume they're out there. Do you know if they're audio books also? Speaker 1  43:52 Well, yes, and but here's the thing, I, because I didn't get to pick the publisher, I mean, the, you know, I didn't get to pick the narrator, so the what they both, okay, so what the bally knows is narrated. Yes, I don't like the narrator's voice. I know that's a terrible thing to say, because I would love for people to go and listen to the audio book, but I don't know, and maybe it's just me. And then the second book the publisher actually used like an AI kind of, I don't know exactly how it works, and I didn't really even know it happened till I went on Amazon one day, I was like, oh, they made an audio book of this, and it was in like an AI voice, so, so the answer is yes. Both of them are on audiobook. Love Notes is not the other bar. Michael Hingson  44:49 It's interesting, I'm on several lists that deal with audio books, and so on, and I hear people talking or. Emailing on the list all the time, and what people have often said is nonfiction books that are not what they're necessarily as much into as fiction books, they don't mind it being an AI voice, but when they're reading good fiction, where they really want to be absorbed, AI and synthetic voices text to speech just doesn't do it, and in fact I buy into that. I agree with that. I don't think that we have yet gotten computer synthesized voices to really take the place of human readers, and I don't know that we ever totally will, because we're so used to what people sound like, but it is an interesting thing that does come up. Speaker 1  45:47 Yeah, I agree with you. Michael Hingson  45:50 So, I prefer human readers in general. I've never been as great a fan of having a synthetic voice. Nothing against computers, but they just don't talk as well as humans do. Speaker 1  46:03 No, I agree with you too. I much prefer the human voice. Michael Hingson  46:09 Well, so you, when did you start writing love notes? When did that really start coming to fruition? Speaker 1  46:17 Well, love notes. We're coming into our third off-Broadway season this Valentine's Day, so it started that would, so it was started in 22 Michael Hingson  46:27 Oh, yeah. Okay, Speaker 1  46:29 so it's a relatively young project. We're going into our third year, but I'm super excited. We just cast the show for this upcoming performance, and that's really exciting. We have, you know, a bunch of local New Yorkers, but then we also have about the cast is 12 members, and six of them are from other parts of the country, so it's, it's got a, you know, flavor from from from all over. Michael Hingson  46:57 Now, is Love Notes available in any way online, or is it strictly just the shows, and they're not recorded and disseminated in any way. The Speaker 1  47:06 the all-star show, which is Valentine's Day at Symphony Space in New York City, the APM show is live streamed. Yeah, so it can be enjoyed from anywhere in the world. Michael Hingson  47:19 Okay, but outside of that one being live streamed, are there recordings of any of the shows that are out there for people to hear? Speaker 1  47:28 There are on my website, actually. Both the 2023 show and the 2024 show are available for resale. I think it's like $15 and you can, you can watch it's like it's a great, like date night kind of thing to watch the Love Notes show. Michael Hingson  47:48 Okay. Well, so from all that you have heard and seen and interacted with in doing Love Notes, how do you define real love today? Speaker 1  48:01 Oh that's it. Oh, Michael Hingson  48:03 that for a question out of left field. Yeah, Speaker 1  48:06 that's a great question. How do I define real love? So, I think real love shows up in a lot of different ways, and it.. and what's interesting in love notes, is I've seen all sorts of examples of it. I've seen the type of real love that ignites people when they're young, you know. Speaker 3  48:31 We'll love Speaker 1  48:31 that's the other thing people will say, "Oh, well, you were too young, that's why it didn't work out. But I don't think that's necessarily true. I think I think a little bit sometimes is luck of the draw, but the I've seen examples of people who met when they were 20 years old, and they've stayed together their entire lives, and that shows up in commitment and the ability to grow up together and to grow and evolve together, so I think real love shows up like that, but I've also seen real love, like the second time around type of love, and that sort of love, where people really need to be able to integrate their past and understand they're both two people carrying bags, and now they're going to carry those bags together, and so that shows up in a different way. Real love, and I've even seen it love showing up for people like in their 80s, third time around, or having never had partnered, and finding a partner very late in life, and that shows up in a whole different way, that's absolutely real too, but I think at the core of all types of real love is one, the ability to both people have to want the relationship, and they have. To be willing to work for the relationship, it's not just like what I want or you want, but it's oftentimes if they can ask the question, like what's the problem, and how is are we a team against the problem, or to be able to solve the problem, and I think that's sort of like the realist type of love that's out there, Michael Hingson  50:26 and I would, would also say it goes back to something we talked about earlier with, with dogs, dogs are are very much open to and do love unconditionally, and when we develop that kind of a relationship, it's as strong as any other kind of relationship that we can develop. When both sides of that relationship sense it and know it, it creates a bond that's, as I said earlier, second to none. Speaker 1  50:58 Yeah, that's a really great way of putting Michael Hingson  51:02 it. I would, I would not want to do anything to betray my guide dog or any of the guide dogs that I've had, but I've learned how to create those teams, and I think that's very important. One thing that that sticks in my mind dealing with dogs is when I lived in Northern California, we were very close to the Marin Humane Society, which is one of the more famous organizations of that type in the world. We were talking to one of the people at the Marin Humane Society one day, and they were talking about the fact that they're growing in class sizes and growing in the number of classes that they have to offer, but what they also point out is that 90% of the training isn't training the dog, it's training the human, which is really true. There's so much that humans don't really work to develop the relationship that they should, and that if they really truly understood it, it would, it would be a whole lot different relationship that they would experience, Speaker 1  52:05 yeah, that's a really nice way of looking at it. Michael Hingson  52:10 Well, so you have love notes that are growing by loops and bounds in a lot of ways, and you have, how many different places are doing the shows now? Speaker 1  52:24 Well, so far we have Indianapolis, Chicago, Redding, Pennsylvania, and then we have another Pennsylvania city, Lancaster, Pennsylvania, and we're in talks right now with Atlanta, Georgia, and Tampa, Florida. Michael Hingson  52:42 Wow, so it's growing, Speaker 1  52:45 it's growing, it's starting to spread. We're starting to spread some love. Michael Hingson  52:51 I get it. What do you think about that? Speaker 1  52:54 I think it's great. Like, I hope I'd love to see one in every city. Such a nice event that really brings the community together. Michael Hingson  53:04 So, how often do the shows run? Is it just like on Valentine's Day, or do they go throughout the whole year? Speaker 1  53:10 It can be any time of year, and it's usually just a one-day event. Sometimes there's multiple shows on one day, but yeah, it's just a one day. Oftentimes the local producer will partner with a local charity, so we try to give back in that way too, and they can choose the charity they want, or, or sometimes they're trying to fund like a scholarship fund, or or something like that. I do encourage that, and and we have like a mastermind group among the producers just trying to support each other as creative entrepreneurs. Michael Hingson  53:46 Well, you're you're seeing a lot of success with it. What kind of surprises have you experienced? This must be kind of a thrill, and a lot of, a lot of surprises for you. Speaker 1  53:58 Well, one of the surprises. well, I'm not surprised by it anymore, but I, I can, I'm certain, always surprised when I have a cast member who, at the very last minute, you know, they've gone through all the rehearsals, all the prep work, all the editing, and then at the very last second they pull out of the show, I've had that happen each show, so now I know how to plan for it, and know how to prepare, you know, producers for it. But yeah, that, that's always surprising to me. Michael Hingson  54:34 It's an adventure, isn't it? Speaker 1  54:35 Sure is. Yeah, gotta sing quickly on your feet. Michael Hingson  54:39 Yeah, you definitely have to do that. Tell us a little bit about Socroc, the company you and your brother formed, and what that's all about. Speaker 1  54:47 Sure, well, my brother was a professional soccer player, and he, when he retired, he moved to Manhattan, thinking he was going to be an actor, and as most actors. Oh, they need a second job to support themselves. Yeah, so became a personal trainer, and he was personal training, and some of his clients got word that he'd been a professional soccer player, and they begged him, they're like, can you teach our kids soccer? So it kind of happened by accident, and just a few balls and cones in Central Park, teaching soccer to little kids, and over the years it's grown and grown and grown and grown. We're in our like 20th year, and so during it was like maybe five years ago, he, it just got out of hand, like it was getting too big, and he needed help, and that was when I had gone through the divorce, and I like explained I'd been in business before, and I wanted a change, so he offered me, you know, a position to come and help him and run, so I run the business side of the soccer, and he runs the soccer side, and we're all throughout Manhattan, we, we do public classes in the parks and playgrounds, and then, like, now in the winter time, we rent space all around the city, and then we also partner with private schools and public schools throughout the city, and we do birthday parties and personal training, and we're starting a kids of all abilities program, and that's that's like our new initiative right now, and and then the spring we're expanding into actually into basketball too, BB Rock, we're calling Michael Hingson  56:29 it. Oh, that's cool. Well, you're doing a lot of different things, you speak, you're an author, you're an educator. We haven't talked about, I guess it's you work with Speaker 1  56:39 SUNY. I teach at the City University of New York, which is part of SUNY, and that work I really love. Yeah, Michael Hingson  56:47 tell, tell me about that. Then, Speaker 1  56:49 so they have an initiative, it's through the Manhattan Educational Opportunity Center, and SUNY provides grants for adult students returning who need to get their high school epilepticy, their GED. So I teach writing the writing section of the GED, and this I - these are the students I like the most, and I've taught at all levels, from freshman comp all the way up to graduate level MFA, and it's the GED adult student that I enjoy the most. So, I'll, when I, when I'm done with you, I actually will zoom up to Harlem, and I'll be teaching GED time tonight. Michael Hingson  57:35 Okay. Well, you're doing all of these different things. How do you keep yourself grounded, and how do you keep the creative juices going? Speaker 1  57:44 Well, that can sometimes be a challenge. Michael Hingson  57:46 I bet, Speaker 1  57:47 but I do. I exercise. That's one thing I really, I love to exercise, and I'm getting better at just taking time for myself, but I also feel like what I do isn't work, like I enjoy what I do, so I always try to bring a sense of gratitude to each day in that way. Michael Hingson  58:13 Yeah, well, and taking time for yourself is is important to do, and and now you have a teacup poodle to share it with, and I'll bet you guys have some interesting conversations. Speaker 1  58:26 Yeah, we sure do. She's a cutie, she's just lying on the little chair right over here. Michael Hingson  58:33 Yeah, my, my dog is over here on his bed, so he, he, he monitors me. Speaker 1  58:41 Yeah, she's been really good, because sometimes when I'm on the Zoom like this, she, she'll start to bark. She doesn't like paying attention to somebody else. Michael Hingson  58:48 Well, one of these days we'll have to end up in Manhattan and come and meet her. Speaker 1  58:54 That sounds Michael Hingson  58:55 be kind of fun. Speaker 1  58:57 That sure would. Michael Hingson  58:58 Well, so tell me, what's next for you? What do you envision going forward from here? Speaker 1  59:04 Well, my hope is actually, I would love, because there have so much fodder now, all these different stories, love stories. My hope is to launch a podcast, a Love Notes podcast that would feature the storyteller and their story, and then I would do an interview of the story behind the story, because people always have questions. They'll hear a story, or they'll read the story, and it's really short. It's like 700 or 1000 words, and they'll always want to know, like, well, what happened to them, or how did that end up. So I envisioned this podcast of love notes, real stories by real people about real love, and that would be like the the meat of it, and then they're at the end of each one, there'd be like a love letter, and people could write love letters that would be shared on the podcast, and tell Michael Hingson  59:55 me, Speaker 1  59:56 you know, like, dear Michael, this is why I love you, and then it would be a. Letter, so that's that's I'd like to see more satellite cities. I'd like to get the next edition of the book out, and then launch the podcast by Trifecta. Michael Hingson  1:00:13 Lots going on, needless to say. Well, if people want to reach out to you, talk about creating their own love notes, or as you said, you'd love to find people who want to help produce in various cities. How do they do that? Speaker 1  1:00:27 Well, probably the easiest thing to do is first, if they just want to learn more about the project in general, would just be to check out the website, and that's at www dot Love Notes worldwide.com and from there, then you can, you can get a hold of me, but I'll give my email address also, it's Heather at Heather Christy, C H R I s t i e books.com so either just hit the website or send me an email directly, and I, yeah, I'd love to talk to anybody who's got a story they want to share, or anyone who's thinking like maybe they'd love to bring a love notes to their community. Michael Hingson  1:01:19 Cool. Well, I hope people will reach out and that you'll get lots of interest from our podcast. It's a, it's a fun thing, and I hope that people will respond. So, all of you out there, email Heather. Speaker 1  1:01:34 That sounds great. And my last little plug: if anybody would love to watch the Love Notes show on January, february 14 for Valentine's Day. You can find that information on the website too. Michael Hingson  1:01:48 What I'm trying to remember, what day of the week february 14 is going to be in 2026 Speaker 1  1:01:53 It's a Michael Hingson  1:01:54 Saturday, great day to Speaker 1  1:01:57 do it. So you can watch it, and actually the live stream will stay live for a week, so if you're not able to watch it that night, you can watch it during the week. Michael Hingson  1:02:05 Oh, cool. Well, I hope people will do that, and I want to thank you for being here. But I want to thank all of you out there for being a part of this today. Heather has had a lot of interesting things to say, and I hope that you'll help her and help yourself by helping her to be more successful. I'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H [email protected] that's M I C H A E L H I at Accessi B A C C E S S I B e.com We'd love it and would greatly appreciate it if wherever you are listening or watching the podcast, if you'll give us a five star review, but also, or a rating, but also give us a review. We love reviews, we appreciate reviews, and we really value all the people who have done it so far, and we ask that you do it again, or you do it for the first time. So, please let us know what you think by writing reviews. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest, we'd love it if you'd let us know. Heather, you as well. Anyone that you think ought to be a guest on Unstoppable Mindset, we would really love to be introduced. My belief is everyone has stories to tell, so don't be shy. We'd love to hear from you. But Heather, once again, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. Speaker 1  1:03:26 Thank you so much, Michael. It's been so much fun to talk to you this afternoon. Michael Hingson  1:03:32 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe? Welcome to Unstoppable Mindset, where inclusion, diversity, and the unexpected meet. I'm your host, Michael Hingson, speaker, author, and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead, and connect with others each week. I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on, and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset, resilience, and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started, 1:04:24 I.

Mental illness touches nearly every family, yet it remains one of the least understood and least supported health challenges we face. In this episode, I sit down with Marvin Ross, a medical writer, publisher, and mental health advocate whose work was shaped by his son’s diagnosis of schizophrenia nearly 30 years ago. Marvin shares why mental illness remains one of the most misunderstood and underfunded health challenges in North America, how stigma and lack of treatment contribute to homelessness, and what countries across Europe are doing differently. We also explore mental health literacy, addiction recovery, public policy, the role of families in treatment, and why education remains one of the strongest tools for change. Along the way, Marvin reflects on his publishing journey, the books that have made an impact, and why understanding mental illness is essential if we want to build a more compassionate and effective Highlights: 01:41 - Learn how Marvin’s son’s schizophrenia diagnosis changed his life’s work. 09:16 - Discover why mental illness is often treated differently than other illnesses. 17:31 - Understand the link between mental illness, homelessness, and lack of care. 19:52 - Learn what Europe is doing differently to support mental health. 25:33 - Hear why mental health literacy needs to improve. 41:12 - Explore the connection between homelessness, addiction, and untreated mental illness. About the Guest: I am a medical writer/publisher/ mental illness advocate with a background in research and planning. I began part time in the late 1970's and published a number of books (technical , humour and medical for lay audiences). Thanks to circumstances, I was able to focus full time on freelance medical writing for a wide array of clients. In the late 1990's, my son developed schizophrenia and I found myself writing about that stigmatizing malady and advocating for improved services. I became active in the Schizophrenia Society of Ontario and am now on the board of the Family Alliance on Severe Mental Illnesses. In 2008, my company Bridgeross Communications, began publishing books mainly on serious mental illnesses beginning with my own book Schizophrenia Medicine's Mystery Society's Shame. It received vary positive endorsements from readers and can found in over 300 libraries worldwide. As a result, people began contacting me with their own book ideas and I ended up adding another 10 titles by people with schizophrenia or family members recounting their experiences. The first two were by a mother of a daughter with schizophrenia in Vancouver which came out in 2010 and is still selling with positive recommendations in Canada, the US and Europe. The other was by a woman with schizophrenia also in Vancouver who, today, is a fine artist, and a recipient of the Courage to Come Back Award and a Face of Mental Illness in Canada. Topics covered in the other books mostly still selling deal with a neuroscientist with schizophrenia, a woman married to a man who developed schizophrenia, an African-American woman with schizophrenia written with her daughter on how they coped, a large Irish-American family with a brother with schizophrenia who also developed terminal cancer and a PhD psychologist in Tennessee who partly got through college while living in her car. I also wrote a regular column for Huffington Post and then for the past 14 years, my own blog which I write with a psychiatrist. Ways to connect with Marvin: Website https://bridgeross.com/ Facebook https://www.facebook.com/marvin.ross.731 Linkedin https://www.linkedin.com/in/marvinross/ Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBF5XSsysn8HLVbKy3APJJw And see this trailer which might enhance your show https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4loR-bAKbuQ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What happens when fear stops being something to avoid and becomes something you learn from? I sit down with futurist designer and Purple Compass founder Donna Dupont for a thoughtful conversation about strategic foresight, resilience, change, and the patterns that shape our future. Donna shares how her experiences in healthcare, public policy, and emergency management during the SARS crisis pushed her toward futures thinking and helping organizations prepare for uncertainty before disruption strikes. Together, we explore why people resist change, how fear can either limit or guide us, and why curiosity may be one of the most important skills we can develop. You will hear insights on business continuity, leadership, personal growth, future thinking, and how intentional choices can help all of us create a more unstoppable future. Highlights: 05:02 - Discover how working through the SARS crisis revealed the hidden gaps between healthcare systems and emergency response. 12:26 - Learn why asking “what if” can build resilience without falling into fear-driven thinking. 17:11 - Explore how curiosity and wider perspectives help people navigate rapid change and uncertainty. 26:09 - Understand why people resist change even while living in a world that is constantly shifting. 38:26 - Hear what futurists actually do and why strategic foresight is about patterns, not predictions. 58:35 - Discover how intentional choices can interrupt old patterns and help shape a different future. About the Guest: Donna Dupont, is an award-winning designer, futurist, and the Founder of Purple Compass. With over 25 years of experience collaborating with leaders in healthcare, public safety, defense, and security, she helps organizations develop future literacy skills to navigate uncertainty and lead change in today’s complex world. Donna integrates theory and practice to enhance anticipatory and adaptive capabilities, strategic intelligence, and agility, driving impactful future policy and strategic planning. A former healthcare professional, provincial policy advisor, and emergency manager, Donna is deeply passionate about applying foresight to strengthen decision-making, mitigate future risks, and enhance preparedness and adaptive capacity. Her work empowers organizations to seize opportunities for innovation, transformation, and resilience. Donna’s unique approach combines systems thinking and strategic foresight, leveraging both quantitative and qualitative insights to identify patterns and anticipate change over time. Her extensive portfolio includes advancing insights on climate-risk, international development, environmental and civil security, health and human security, and national defense. Recognized for her exceptional achievements, Donna has received seven government awards for excellence in policy, strategy, and partner relations. Her acclaimed futures research, Anticipation in Emergency Management (2020), earned awards from the Canadian Defence and Security Network and the Association of Professional Futurists. Donna holds a Master of Design in Strategic Foresight & Innovation from OCAD University. Ways to connect with Donna: https://www.purplecompass.ca/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/donna-dupont/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Behind every glamorous photo shoot is a world most people never see. I sit down with Marie P. Anderson, the woman who helped launch the career of Cindy Crawford, for a raw conversation about survival, resilience, and what it really takes to make it in the modeling industry. Marie shares how childhood trauma, domestic violence, addiction, and years of navigating abuse inside fashion shaped her mission to create safer opportunities for models. We also explore martial arts, faith, entrepreneurship, financial discipline, and why she believes human connection and soul can never truly be replaced by AI. It’s an honest look at reinvention, perseverance, and building an unstoppable mindset through some of life’s hardest experiences. Highlights: ·      01:50 – Growing up around NASA and fashion sparked Marie’s creative drive. ·      07:55 – Leaving an abusive marriage became the start of Marie’s reinvention. ·      15:02 – AI and social media are changing the future of modeling. ·      22:45 – Martial arts helped Marie shift from victim to warrior. ·      30:28 – Marie explains why she left Elite to protect models. ·      48:26 – Why aspiring models should never give away their power too quickly. About the Guest: Marie P. Anderson is a model agent, author, speaker, and survivor who helped shape the modern modeling industry that we know today - while fighting private battles most never saw. Marie was drawn to fashion at a young age and designed a personal clothing line labeled Minnie. But the girl who dressed her dolls was born into trauma, instability, and loss. Despite these challenges, she graduated high school, began working in photography studios, and eventually found her calling in scouting, developing, and managing models. Marie rose to prominence as the Vice President of Elite Model Management Chicago, where she launched the career of supermodel Cindy Crawford and represented hundreds of top-tier models throughout the 1980s and ’90s. But Marie’s legacy extends far beyond the names she helped make famous. She founded Aria Model & Talent with a clear mission to redefine industry standards. In just a few years, the agency became a multimillion-dollar success rooted in integrity, mentorship, and dignity—principles often missing from fashion’s fast-paced world. A second-degree black belt in Shidokan Karate and longtime mental health advocate, Marie spent the last four decades mentoring young talent on how to not only succeed in fashion but how to survive it. She is the author of two internationally published modeling guides and the creator and producer of The Wizard of Editorial, an educational program. Today she runs a virtual coaching platform called Boss Babe Models, which uniquely paired personal empowerment with practical business insights. Most recently, Marie has been on the journey of healing from Breast Implant Illness (BII), enduring medical gaslighting, ambiguous tests, and the uphill journey of self-advocacy in a healthcare system that often fails women. As with every other struggle she’s overcome, she’s again channeling that experience into education—not just for herself but for others. Marie continues to write, coach, and speak about the intersection of trauma, identity, and transformation—with wit, humor, and unshakable integrity. She is currently in development on her memoir, as well as a third edition of her successful modeling guide, updated for the new era of social media, mental health advocacy, and industry reform. Ways to connect with Maria: Official Website Instagram Facebook Youtube Threads SubstackLinkedIn Boss Babe Models Boss Babe Models Instagram Boss Babe Models Facebook Boss Babe Models Youtube About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What happens when the way you grow up teaches you to see the world through empathy, inclusion, and connection? In this heartfelt conversation, I talk with Maria Gallucci about being raised by deaf parents, growing up as a CODA, and how those experiences shaped her life, business, and advocacy work. Maria shares powerful lessons about communication, bullying, accessibility, ASL, LGBTQ inclusion, and why small acts of kindness can change someone’s life. You’ll also hear how her book Raised in Silence became an Amazon bestseller and why she believes connection matters more than labels. Highlights: · 00:54 - Learn how growing up with deaf parents shaped Maria’s view of empathy and inclusion. · 04:00 - Hear how bullying inspired Maria to advocate for acceptance and accessibility. · 15:15 - Discover how helping her parents with real estate closings shaped her career path. · 20:06 - Learn what finally pushed Maria to publish Raised in Silence after 15 years. · 35:06 - Hear why being fully present can make people feel seen and valued. · 46:55 - Discover why human connection still matters more than technology. About the Guest: Maria Gallucci – Award-Winning Colorado REALTOR®, Advocate & Author Maria Gallucci is a multi-award-winning Colorado real estate broker, author, and lifelong advocate for inclusive communication and accessible housing. With over 30 years of experience, Maria specializes in working with the Deaf, Hard of Hearing, and LGBTQ+ communities, as well as builders, investors, and families across Denver, Colorado Springs, Northern and Southern Colorado, the Western Slope and Nationwide. She is the founder of Uptown Realty Group and Gallucci Homes, and is consistently ranked among the top 1.5% of REALTORS® nationwide. Maria is also a top-producing agent at Compass Real Estate. A Personal Mission Rooted in Inclusion As a CODA (Child of Deaf Adults), Maria learned American Sign Language (ASL) before English. At just 12 years old, she helped her parents purchase their first home, serving as an unofficial interpreter. This pivotal experience shaped her mission: to ensure that clients from underrepresented communities are seen, heard, and respected—especially in the home buying and selling process. Maria founded: ASL @ Compass , an affinity group for ASL-fluent agents ASL Realty , a national platform connecting Deaf and Hard of Hearing clients with ASL-communicating REALTORS® Her motto, "Just Try," encourages everyone to make meaningful connections, even across communication differences. Expertise Across All Colorado Real Estate Markets Maria's depth of knowledge spans: Residential real estate across Denver Metro, Colorado Springs, Northern/Southern Colorado and Nationwide New construction, Single Family homes, Land, Condos, townhomes, and duplex developments Real estate investment opportunities Builder marketing and sales strategy Her clients trust her ability to negotiate, design winning strategies, and execute seamless transactions that are profitable and low-stress. A Community Advocate and Author Outside of real estate, Maria serves on the boards of: Rocky Mountain Deaf School DOVE (Deaf Overcoming Violence through Empowerment) Colorado Association of the Deaf (CAD) She is also the author of Raised in Silence, a memoir and guide to bridging communication gaps — a love letter to the Deaf community that raised her. Awards & Recognition Top 1% of Colorado REALTORS® Top 1.5% REALTORS® Nationally 5280 Magazine Double Black Diamond Award Real Trends / Top 100 Agents in America Tom Ferry / Best Real Estate Agent in America Outstanding Women in Business Five Star Real Estate Agent 5280 Five Star Professional Award Denver Metro REALTOR® Association Diamond Excellence Award South Metro REALTOR® Association 5-Carat Diamond Circle Club Award Whether you're looking to buy, sell, invest, or build in Colorado, Maria Gallucci is the inclusive, experienced, and results-driven REALTOR® to guide you every step of the way. Ways to connect with Maria: [email protected] https://www.youtube.com/@galluccihomes https://www.facebook.com/TopASLRealtor https://www.instagram.com/galluccihomes/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/maria-gallucci-18725b9/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Most people fear getting older, but Gary Cole believes aging can become one of the happiest and healthiest stages of life. In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, Gary and I explore what it really means to age well through purpose, relationships, movement, optimism, and daily lifestyle choices. Gary shares lessons from the Blue Zones, the science behind longevity, and why mindset matters more than most people realize. You will hear practical insights on healthy sleep, nutrition, exercise, happiness, spirituality, and how to create a life filled with meaning at any age. Highlights: · 00:10:22 - Learn why society fears aging and how mindset changes the way we experience getting older. · 00:18:24 - Discover how daily lifestyle choices impact aging more than genetics. · 00:20:40 - Hear why older years can become some of the happiest stages of life. · 00:31:07 - Learn why purpose and meaningful routines matter after retirement. · 00:48:53 - Discover the Blue Zone habits linked to longer, healthier, and happier lives. · 01:00:35 - Hear Gary’s top five habits for living a healthy, active, and fulfilling life. About the Guest: Garry is a Baby Boomer with a passion for aging well, which he describes as a life of health, happiness and longevity. Garry lives in Michigan with his wife Pam, their cat, Simba, and their Samoyed dog, Amara. A graduate of The University of Michigan he is a big Wolverine fan. Although he did not win his March Madness Pool, he is very happy with the final outcome. Go Blue. When he is not cheering on the Wolverines, he enjoys travel, reading, and living vicariously through his two recently adulted children. The oldest, Parker, will graduate from Medical School in May and start his residency at Rutgers University in July. His daughter, Paulina, is living her best life in Chicago, working in the financial services industry and enjoying everything the city offers. After spending three years researching the topic of aging he decided to share what he learned. His first book, "Are We Old Yet?", was published in 2024 and became a best seller in the Aging category. Garry continues his research and publishes blogs on his website and speaks on topics related to aging. As he likes to say, most of us have the privilege to age, it is up to us to do it well. Ways to connect with Gary: Website, https://www.garrycole.com/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61551415109016 YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@GarryCole-g2r LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/garrycole/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Most people spend their lives reacting to change. Rick Yvanovich believes the real goal is to shape it. In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with Rick to explore entrepreneurship, coaching, fear, leadership, and the mindset shifts that help people grow through uncertainty. From failing to get into university to building businesses across Asia and mentoring leaders around the world, Rick shares lessons on resilience, lifelong learning, balanced fulfillment, and why asking for help is often the key to lasting success. You will hear practical insights on self-discovery, business growth, personal development, and learning how to trust yourself in a rapidly changing world. Highlights: · 00:38 - Learn how to become an architect of change instead of reacting to life. · 05:20 - Discover why trusting your inner voice matters. · 09:17 - Hear how fear can become a tool instead of a barrier. · 20:54 - Understand the difference between coaching and mentoring. · 30:14 - Learn what balanced fulfillment really means. · 56:04 - Explore why agility matters in business and life. About the Guest: Rick is a true master of the business coaching craft, known for his proven ability to help companies and individuals achieve unprecedented levels of success. With a deep understanding of both business strategy and human potential, he skillfully combines practical experience with transformative coaching interventions. His systematic approach and unwavering commitment to empowering people allow him to translate vision into actionable steps that drive measurable results and sustainable growth. At the heart of Rick’s work lies a simple yet powerful mission — to inspire and empower humans for balanced fulfillment. He believes success should not come at the expense of well-being and that true leadership is about aligning purpose, passion, and performance. This philosophy forms the cornerstone of his coaching practice, enabling his clients to achieve not just professional success, but personal balance and fulfillment as well. Ways to connect with Rick: https://www.facebook.com/TRGInternational/https://www.linkedin.com/in/rickyvanovich/https://www.instagram.com/RICKYVANOVICH2/https://www.youtube.com/@RickYvanovichhttps://www.youtube.com/@trginternational3812  About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What happens when you leave behind security, move across countries with almost no plan, and trust that life will somehow work out? I talk with stand-up comic and creative entrepreneur Sadia Carone about her wild path from Ohio to Paris, New York, Brazil, Los Angeles, and Las Vegas. Sadia shares how she walked away from a difficult family life, built careers in software testing and entertainment, survived 9/11 in New York, took huge risks to chase comedy and acting, and learned how to handle rejection, failure, and negative people without losing herself. You will hear honest lessons about resilience, creativity, career pivots, faith, comedy, and why success is rarely instant. Highlights: 00:01:32 – How music helped Sadia teach English in Paris. 00:10:32 – Why she left tech to pursue comedy and acting. 00:14:45 – What it was like living in New York during 9/11. 00:27:07 – Why she moved to Las Vegas with no real plan. 00:35:41 – How faith helped her through major setbacks. 00:51:21 – Why creative careers take patience and preparation. About the Guest: SADIA CARONE was born in the Midwest and has since lived in Paris, France and Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. She currently lives in Las Vegas, Nevada where she regularly performs stand-up comedy. Sadia was brought up to choose "the safe path" and she graduated from the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia with a BA English and a BA in French. She wanted to go to music school  -- but at the time, that was out of the question ( = her parents forbid it). Well her parents were wrong! Sadia took voice lessons and started writing songs. Atlantic Records was going to sign her -- then 9/11 happened and both the record executives and her music producer had other things to deal with.  And now Sadia has a comedy album! She performs her original songs on stage! Along the way, she got her SAG card (national actors' union) and earlier this year, she taught a stand-up comedy workshop in Reno, Nevada for the SAG Conservatory! Sadia's approach to life is "follow your heart" and "carefully assess the risks". In other words -- timing is everything! Do your research. Make informed decisions. Then when the time is right -- take that leap of faith! Sadia's career highlights include   * IT manager for the USPTO * software tester for the National Red Cross HQ * TEDx Speaker * Host, Jimmy Kimmel's Comedy Club * Karaoke DJ at Vegas #1 karaoke spot * Tour Guide, Big Bus Las Vegas * Yellow M\&M, The M\&M Store in Las Vegas * Apartment Building Manager, West Hollywood / Northern Hollywood / Studio City, California  * Official SongBird and Queen of Culture and Creativity, Shitshow Creative * Founder, Music for Emotions which received a grant from SEED Vegas. Sadia speaks English natively, fluent French and Portuguese, business-level Spanish, intermediate Hindi/Urdu and bits of Russian and Arabic. Ways to connect with Sadia: LinkedIn  www.linkedin.com/in/sadiacarone Instagram @sadiacarone About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hi everyone. I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am Michael hingson, your host. I've been your host for all of these so that should be recognizable by now, but you never know anyway. Our guest today is Sadia Carone, or in America, Carone, I wonder what it is in Texas, we'll have to talk about that. But by the same token, Sadia is a stand up comic. She speaks a number of languages and has a lot of talents that we'll get to we're supposed to start this 15 minutes ago, but we've been talking about comedy and other things, so we're late at getting started, but you won't notice it, because the recording goes as the recording goes anyway. So Sadia, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Sadia Carone  01:44 Thank you. I'm delighted to be here. Michael Hingson  01:46 And Sadia lives in Las Vegas, which is about three hours sort of east of where I live in Victorville. So lovely weather out there, just like here. Sadia Carone  01:57 Yes, three hours as the crow flies, probably six and a half with the Thanksgiving Michael Hingson  02:02 traffic. I'll bet it is, yeah, and so I'm staying home. You're staying home. And by computer, it's, it's lightning fast. By computer, Well, I'm glad you're here. And I'd love to start with maybe learning a little about the earlier Sadia growing up and all that. Sadia Carone  02:20 Sure, I grew up in what some people would call a dysfunctional family. You and I were talking before about how everybody has a disability, and I have a social disability in that, I went no contact with my parents for good reasons. I grew up. My dad was a lawyer, my mom was a school teacher, and I wanted to do music, they made the mistake of giving me piano lessons, and I loved it more than school, which I loved. I would get up early and play piano two hours a day before school, and then play again after school, and I just loved it. But people from our family don't go to Juilliard or don't do music. We listen to music, but we don't make music. So I went to college, and in college, I spent two years in Paris. That was eye opening. I went for my junior year abroad, got a job, was able to stay there and support myself. So I did that. Was absolutely amazing. I was teaching English as a foreign language and using songs, because that's what the students wanted. I taught adulteration ministry they dealt with, like the French colonies in Africa and Asia, and so I was translating things from the UN It was an amazing opportunity, but I found that my students were way more motivated when I would write down the lyrics to the songs that they would tell me they liked, and then we would translate the lyrics, so we would talk about grammar and vocabulary, and then we would sing the songs to help with their pronunciation, and they grew rapidly, way faster than with the boring old book. So to kind of compress a whole lot of time, I now have a startup that's based on music. It's called Music for emotions, and it's in development, but I found a way to put music first foremost, I put out an album of comedy songs that are not appropriate for children. Okay, you should be 21 or older. They're not nasty. Well, they're not nasty. Anyone under 21 to listen to them. I hope we don't get believed. But one of my songs is called your boner is not my problem. Michael Hingson  04:43 I get it. So, Sadia Carone  04:45 yeah, adult topics in a cheerful, light hearted way, Michael Hingson  04:49 okay, we won't BLEEP you. You're safe. Well, Sadia Carone  04:58 I won't tell you some of the other. Titles, but yeah, Michael Hingson  05:01 yeah, that's okay. Well, as as you pointed out, you spend time in Paris, and of course, as we all know from Humphrey Bogart, they'll always be Paris. So there you are. Too much time in front of the movie screen. Sadia Carone  05:14 Beautiful, beautiful city. It's changed. Never too much time in front of the movie screens. Paris is amazing. I'm sure it's changed a lot since I was a junior in college, but it sort of is the center of the universe, with my apologies to New York City, which is, of course, the best city in the whole world, of course, but Paris, it's closer to Africa, it's closer to Asia, it's closer to Scandinavia. You could sit in the metro, which is their subway, and probably see people from eight different countries. So it was just fascinating. I grew up in the middle of nowhere, with no disrespect to my hometown in Ohio, and it was just mind boggling. I could go to a museum and see an actual Monet. I could get close enough to touch it, although I never did. Just wow, wow. You know all these painters that I'd studied, and just the vibrancy and the internationalness of it all, it was fantastic. Michael Hingson  06:15 So what did you do when you came back from Paris? Sadia Carone  06:19 Well, I realized if I didn't go home after two years abroad, I wouldn't know anybody on campus, because the kids that were freshmen when I was a sophomore, they were juniors when I took my first anyway, they were sophomores when I took my first year abroad. They were juniors during my my year off so I wouldn't know anybody unless I went back and graduated. So I did. Then I made a career shift. My first job out of college was writing a computer manual for software. And you know those 16 digit numbers on literally everything you buy, Michael Hingson  06:59 yes, Sadia Carone  07:00 well, we sold the software for J Crew and I something similar to Ross. It was called Daffy. Is a big store in New York, and with those 16 digits, we could trace the cut Speaker 1  07:13 in Sadia Carone  07:14 your shirt back to the field and Speaker 2  07:16 buy Sadia Carone  07:17 and my job was to write the manual so the girl or guy the cash register could figure out why the 25% discount wasn't being applied, to figure out what to do if a whole batch of stuff was, you know, sewn in a weird way or was damaged. So I got that job by saying I don't know enough about computers, so I'm the perfect person. I'm a good teacher because I taught in Paris, so yeah, let me learn how to do this, and I can explain it so a five year old can do Michael Hingson  07:46 it. Yeah, and that's interesting, because you have your majors in English and French, and now you're going off and doing computers. So that's a lot of fun. Sadia Carone  07:53 It really was, I guess you could say I just have a massive love of learning. And that little job I was able to spin into a much better paying job where I did software testing for y, 2k, yep, that long ago, I was a software testing manager for the National Headquarters of the Red Cross and then for the US Patent and Trademark Office. And it's safe to say I was swimming in money. It was delightful. Michael Hingson  08:23 I remember y 2k I was selling. We had opened the office in the World Trade Center, and I was managing the team that sold a lot of products to Wall Street. And when y 2k happened, we were actually commanded to have a service person stay in a hotel in the city, because none of our people lived in the city, none of the support people, but they had to be available, just in case something happened at midnight and suddenly, the people like Goldman Sachs needed help, and it was they didn't, but it was still One of those, those interesting things, y, 2k was one of those things, like a Gilbert and Sullivan opera, opera or operetta. You know, a lot of words that signify absolutely nothing, because nothing really happened, but still, you didn't want to take the chance, Sadia Carone  09:14 right? So for people who may not have been alive at that time or old enough to care at that time, computer started off, and I think it was mostly cobalt or Fortran, and it's like the early 70s. And they're like, we'll just use a two digit year, because they weren't thinking about the year 2000 so a two digit year would be like 76 for 1976 now, my grandfather was born in 1896 so that's where the issues come with the two digit year. Speaker 1  09:44 And Sadia Carone  09:45 it could have been nothing's going to work. A lot of people worked really hard to make it work. So some of the fear was justified, just because the problems doesn't mean that. There couldn't have been, like, I got paid a ton of money to try to make stuff compliant, right switching, in most cases, from a two digit year to a four digit Michael Hingson  10:08 year. Sadia Carone  10:08 And I was a tester, so my job was to break stuff. I'm really good at breaking stuff. I don't have to code. I just have to know where the code is weak. And I would joke I can smell so if you want to break a computer program, put somebody was born in like the year 4527 and they died in the year 12. That would crash the system. I would put people who had a name that was too long, like 56 characters for the last name. What other fun stuff would I do? Oh, born in 1776 and hasn't died yet. Once you learn the weaknesses, it's very easy to exploit them. The programmers hated me, but the client loved me. I was like, sorry, unstable crashed it Michael Hingson  10:51 well, and that's really the for y 2k was really the issue, and there were a number of good testers who did a great job of finding or at least testing, for so many things such that we didn't have the problems that we thought we were going to have, which was great that Michael Hingson  11:08 the threat was very real. Michael Hingson  11:11 Oh, it was, Sadia Carone  11:12 again, it's kind of like if you foil a terrorist attack, if you keep doing it, people are going to think, well, there's no more threat. Well, no, just because we eliminated the threat doesn't mean that it wasn't serious. So it was very serious. I'm proud of the work that that we did. Ironically enough, I got laid off six weeks before December 31 1999 and at that point, I decided to make a switch to being a full time creative I'd been making the big computer money and running off and doing plays. I got cast in some big TV shows that came down to DC to film. I got cast in a couple films, and at least the team I worked with. A lot of these people were just horrible. They would book a conference room for six hours, have a 10 minute meeting, and then charge the whole time to some client code. And they were going getting their nails done and getting their hair done and going out to lunch. And there is a there was a lot of waste at the USPTO that may have changed, but I realized that the acting people were a lot nicer to be around and USP what I know now Michael Hingson  12:25 us is what PTO is, Sadia Carone  12:30 oh, us, patent and Michael Hingson  12:31 trade, trademark office. Okay, great. Sadia Carone  12:34 Patent and yeah, sorry, not paid time off patent and trademark office, right? Yeah, they're in DC. I assumed that everybody would be as corporate II, as what I was used to. If a corporation says we're going to pay you X amount of dollars in X amount of days to do X amount of work, you get paid so many creative life. People haven't paid they've stolen my ideas, like all kinds of nonsense. Yeah, so that was eye opening, but you know, it's all learning curve, Michael Hingson  13:10 yeah. Well, so you did all of that. So you switched to go out, going off and being creative. And is that? So that's what you did after you were laid off or Well, what did you do after you were laid off six weeks before December 31 1999 Speaker 1  13:29 Well, the Sadia Carone  13:29 first thing I did was apply for unemployment. And because I've been making such good money, I had six months of really, really sweet unemployment. And about a week or two before I got laid off, I got called into the big theater in DC, the one that everybody wants to perform in, and the casting director wanted to see me, and I was like, Oh my god. So I looked at their entire season, I picked the one play that had a part that I thought I would be right for. Read the play. I did everything I was supposed to do. So so I take, you know, a day off work, Dennis appointment, and I go meet this guy. I got paid by the hour. Okay, so if I wasn't at work, they didn't have to pay me. I go meet this guy. And he's like, Hey, Sadia, I called you in here to audition for the part I'd prepared for. And then he said, unfortunately, yesterday, the director decided to hire a friend of hers out of New York, and I was just crestfallen. And I said, Well, can I at least audition, just so she can see me? And he sat, you know, looked at me from across his desk, and he said, Sadia, I'm going to tell you a really difficult truth. There are three women in your age range that are going to get all the work in DC. You're really good. You need to go to New York. And I was like, okay, okay, I'd lived in New York before, and then when the layoff came, I think I hung around DC for about two. Months trying to figure out what I was going to do with my life. And then one day, I just woke up and I said, You know what? I'm going to New York. And I did. So Michael Hingson  15:10 now it's 2000 Sadia Carone  15:12 Yes, and I was in New York for two years. I left in December, 2002 so I was working. I think it was 27th and seventh on Michael Hingson  15:24 September. Sadia Carone  15:26 So I would say we were North enough to be safe, Michael Hingson  15:30 right? Sadia Carone  15:30 But we were close enough to see just Night of the Living Dead, all the Wall Streeters, just everybody started walking north, Michael Hingson  15:38 yeah. Sadia Carone  15:38 So I come into work about eight, 845, I think. And my boss had the news on, and he's like, You're not gonna believe that somebody just hit the World Trade Center. I'm like, It's broad daylight. What were they smoking? Hahaha, what an idiot. I mean, tragic, but we just thought it was a human error. And then the second one got hit, and we were like, Oh, Michael Hingson  16:02 yeah. Sadia Carone  16:03 And I told my boss, I want to go see this. And he's like, Well, if you go stand at the corner of, I think, Sixth Avenue, you'll be able to see it. And so I went and I watched. There about a dozen of us just watching the tower, and out of nowhere, the building. Sat down. Michael Hingson  16:20 Yeah, Sadia Carone  16:21 that's the only way I can describe it, floor by floor. It was 123, boom that floor collapsed. 123, boom, that floor collapsed. And so it looked like it was sitting down. It didn't look lopsided. It looked very much like controlled explosions. And everybody just kind of looked at each other, and I ran back to the office, emailed everybody on my list, because we thought we were all going to die. We thought that the bombs were going to be dropped, you know Hiroshima, you know US version. That's not what happened. I was fortunate enough I could walk home. So I did anybody who needed a place to stay to come to my house because the trains weren't working, the planes got canceled. Broadway shows got canceled, and New York especially freaked out. Michael Hingson  17:09 Yeah. Sadia Carone  17:10 So I was working in a dream job. I was working in a production company. I was a rising star. I just landed us this big Spanish client with my Spanish. And had that not happened, my life would be very different, as would, of course, many people's nobody wanted to film in New York. A lot of people left New York. New York was a very scary place, and I stuck it out for about 15 months. And finally I was like, I need something new. I can't do this anymore. I gotta get out of here. And I'd already lived in Europe, and my Spanish was pretty good, so I started looking at South America. And wouldn't you know, I go to a party, and I meet a girl from Brazil, and she and I become, like instant best friends. She has a place in Rio with an extra room. She was like, Hey, why don't you come down here? I'll help you get a job teaching English. It'll be awesome. And two days later, I started a temp job at a law firm. My lawyer had just come back from Brazil the night before. I watched Brazil win the World Cup the last 10 minutes of the game, and they all got down on their knees and prayed. And I looked at them, and I said, Oh, my God, that's my people. I'm going to Brazil. And just so many things kind of fell together. I wound up getting a really great price on a flight, American Airlines flight. I went down there and I made it work. I found a job, I met a guy. A lot of good things happened for me down there. Got on TV, I was singing, it was great, but visa issues got to the point of go to jail or go home. And I said, I'll go home. Thank you very much. Michael Hingson  18:54 Yeah, Speaker 2  18:56 yeah. Michael Hingson  18:58 And, and you already sort of intimated this, but of course, your parents weren't supportive of any of this kind of stuff. Were they? Sadia Carone  19:05 Oh, I went no contact after college. God, I didn't want to go to college. I'm really good at school. I, you know, English and French, so very wordy, very reading stuff and writing stuff. But I figured I went college. I did my duty as a child, and then I went no contact, so they don't know much about me. And plot twist, my dad passed away about three years ago, and I assumed I'd be cut out of the will, but I was not. That's as much of a surprise to me as probably the whole rest of the family. My stepmom is holding things up, you know, God bless her, whatever. So we'll see how that plays out. But, yeah, I quit them, but he left me in the will. Michael Hingson  19:53 So you came back to the States, I presume after Brazil. Sadia Carone  19:57 Yeah, I was in New York for about. Two years then I had the opportunity to go to LA a friend of mine had just bought the animal hospital where he works. He and I had been salsa dancing buddies, and he was half Brazilian, so when he was in Brazil, we actually saw each other a few times. He came down once or twice while I was down there, really good friend of mine, and he said, Hey, princess, I bought the Animal Hospital where I work, that had been his dream back when we were both in New York. He's like, I want you to see it. And I said, Okay, money back. Send me a ticket. I'll get on a plane if you send a ticket. And he did. And so I got on a plane, and I went to LA and I saw his beautiful hospital, and I was really proud of him. And then he was gonna go back to Ecuador which is the other half. He's half Brazilian, half Ecuadorian, or no, Peruvian. He's going back to Peru. And he was like, You can't stay here when I'm gone. I was like, Okay. He's like, I'm leaving Sunday. Like, okay. So I found a place to stay. Moved out of his place. Moved into my Michael Hingson  21:01 sorry, you moved where? Sadia Carone  21:02 Oh, I moved out of his place, right? And I stayed in Los Angeles for six years after that. Michael Hingson  21:07 Oh my gosh, Sadia Carone  21:08 just walk through the open door. That's what I tell people. I was getting tired of New York, and I had the opportunity to leave. So I left. Michael Hingson  21:19 So what did you do out in LA Sadia Carone  21:22 Well, I went to Central Casting and I signed up to be an extra in TV shows. I worked on a ton of shows. A friend that I met up there helped me get a job as a building manager. I worked for three different small apartment buildings. And the great thing about being a building manager is, if your buildings are completely full, you only really have to work about five days out of the month. You collect the rent, you deposit the rent, like, that's it. If you have a vacancy, you got to work all the time trying to, you know, get the apartment rented. But fun times, you get a free apartment. Because if there are, I think, 15 units, or 16 or more units, you have to have someone who lives on site. Michael Hingson  22:07 Yeah, Sadia Carone  22:07 so I was able to run off. I was on gully probably eight different times, and the middle Parks and Rec, I didn't get on the office, which really annoyed me. But, you know, I got to do a ton of great stuff. I actually joined the actors union when I was out in LA. Just amazing, amazing opportunities. Michael Hingson  22:31 Did you get to sing on Glee? Sadia Carone  22:33 No, I was just an extra. Whenever the kids would go to sectionals or regionals, they had to have a bunch of people Speaker 1  22:40 in the Michael Hingson  22:40 audience. You were there, Sadia Carone  22:41 and I was one of them. Yeah, Michael Hingson  22:43 got it all right. So you were in LA for six years, and then what? Sadia Carone  22:49 Well, I went to a networking party one day. And my approach to networking is meet one person and then find people to introduce to that person. I'm actually kind of shy in a big group. It might not seem like that, but I decided the best way to overcome this is to just get involved and help other people. So I met this one guy who was a writer, and then I just ran around finding people to introduce to him. Like the whole night, you would have thought I was the hostess of this thing. I was like, Oh, hi. How are you? My name's Saudi. What do you do? Oh, you're a writer. Oh, come meet my friend. Oh, you're an actor. You should call me my writer friend. Oh, you're a producer. You should come meet my writer friend. And at one point, I had four different groups of people going and people were coming up to me and being like, who the Who the f are you like? What I want to be in one of your groups, but some of these girls, I knew because I was in, I was a audience member on Judge Judy, oh, my god, probably 100 times Judge Joe Brown, and so I had a sense of who took their job seriously and who did not. And I'm not going to say it was really revenge. But you know, when you're not following the rules and you're being a jerk on set and you're not someone I want to associate with, don't come up to me asking for favors well, as I'm running around, just kind of owning this party by accident, right? Some guy comes up to me and he's like, hey, I want to talk to you. Will you sit still for two minutes? And I was like, Sure, we're sure. We're sure. What do you do? He was a producer. And I was like, Okay, that's great. You should go tell he's like, No, sit. I was like, Yeah, I'll be back. And so I eventually came back, like a half an hour later, and I sat down, and he told me his name, and it's a name that I knew. And I was like, Oh, okay. And he was like, you're amazing. I was like, well, thank you very much. I want to have lunch with you and talk to you about a project. Like, okay, great. So we go and have lunch. And his family, not him, but his family had produced the movie airplane. Michael Hingson  24:59 Do. Speaker 2  25:00 Yeah, Sadia Carone  25:03 and so this guy Speaker 2  25:05 wanted Sadia Carone  25:06 my help. He had the name, and as other people put it, I had the brains. And we he sort of fell into this opportunity where the clippers, which is a basketball team, I did not know that some of them wanted to buy a film studio. Was this little film studio out in Castaic, which is just outside of LA and their financial advisors would not let them do it unless they had a Hollywood guy as part of the project. So he was approached to be the Hollywood guy, and I would come to all the meetings, and I was taking the notes. And when I was in New York, I worked on Wall Street. I read the Wall Street Journal. I went to Penn. They've got a great business school. I can kind of hang with the with the finance bros, and we were so close to getting this deal together. And he was literally like, what do you want your job to be? I wrote my ideal job, my ideal salary. I brought a couple friends into this thing with me, and then it fell through. I was still a building manager, and they had a meeting the first week of the month. I'm like, Dude, I can't be there. I got to be here. I got to collect the checks, got to do the rent. I can't go something went sideways, and from what I was able to piece together later, my boss made a joke that you should not make in, shall we say, mixed company. So I have blonde hair, right? So I can say, Oh, I had a blonde moment. I can say that, if I barely know you, when you say that, that might be a deal breaker for Speaker 1  26:39 me. Sadia Carone  26:40 You know, we all have our sensitive issues, and part of being a comic is seeing them, but spinning them into a positive light. You know, a bad comic will make people feel worse. A good comic will make people feel better. So my boss made some stupid joke that he shouldn't have made and absolutely infuriated everybody, and now the deal's done, and I'd worked so hard on this, and I remember I was on Santa Monica Boulevard in a little cafe outside sipping my coffee, and I was like, God, you know what? I hate every brick in this town. I hate every grain of sand. I hate everything about this town. Where can I go that's not here, but not too far away, because it is kind of the entertainment capital of the world, Michael Hingson  27:30 right? Sadia Carone  27:30 And suddenly I got the idea to come to Las Vegas. Michael Hingson  27:34 There you are. Sadia Carone  27:36 I'd never been to Las Vegas before, and I was like, Well, isn't it cocaine and hookers like, that's not really my scene. And my intuition was like, just go, just Just go. Just Just go. So I took the $35 that would have been my bus pass in LA and I bought a one way ticket to Vegas on a on a bigger bus, and I made it work. There was a site called couch surfing that I went on, and I was able to get a place for a couple days until I sorted it out. Then I found a job and I got an apartment, and the rest is history. Michael Hingson  28:13 So what year did you go to Vegas? Sadia Carone  28:16 2014, Michael Hingson  28:17 okay, so you've been there 11 years. This is Sadia Carone  28:20 the longest I've been anywhere. And I joke with my friends. I'm like, it's like, the guy that you date, and you can't quite break up, but you can't quite get married either, because it's, like, really good but, but maybe not great, and you're kind of holding on. So I may cheat on Vegas with another city, or I may pick it up a notch and actually, like, buy a house or a condo here, I don't know yet. Michael Hingson  28:44 Well, you don't have to rush, as long as you are able to be substantial and do things. So you'll see, time will time will tell. Well, you've obviously done a lot. You've done Speaker 2  28:58 a lot Sadia Carone  28:59 this town. This is an amazing town. Michael Hingson  29:02 Yeah. Sadia Carone  29:04 No, you go ahead. I talk a lot. Go ahead. Michael Hingson  29:06 You've you've done a lot of things and all that. What's the biggest risk that you've ever taken? Sadia Carone  29:12 Let's see, I would say moving to a third world country, probably moving to Brazil. Michael Hingson  29:17 Okay, Sadia Carone  29:18 that was a huge risk. There was one time in LA when LA has great labor laws, I did a non union acting job, and they paid me 45 days late, and the judge decided to give us a day's pay for every day they were late. So my $100 job became a $4,500 job, and they negotiated it down to about 3500 and the lady at the Labor Board was like, I suggest that you take this. And so I took it, and I was like, Ooh, should I buy a computer? Should I put it in savings, or should I join sag AFTRA? And I joined the Union? So. Thoughts at that point, having $3,500 at one time was a really big deal, and so I guess that was a risk. Doing stand up comedy was a risk. Doing my album was a risk. I wrote a song that I'm not going to discuss because it's slightly more inappropriate than that other one, and people were asking me to buy the song. They were like, I love your song. Where can I buy it? I'm like, bribe. I don't know where to find a music studio. So I went to a music open mic and said, hey, everybody wants this song. I need somebody to do with the music studio. And some guy walked up to me and said, call this guy, and I called that guy, and he said, Your song's a hit. It's a great song. Michael Hingson  30:46 And Sadia Carone  30:47 he sent me to somebody closer, and I got my album. So I mean, going to Brazil was a huge risk. There's so many, but I would say probably Brazil, or taking your off of college to stay in France. That was a risk. If you're ever thinking about a risk, I mean showing up in Vegas with 20 bucks, that was a risk. You have to weigh all the options. So when I was ready to leave ballet, I was like, Sadia, you don't know anybody in Vegas. You might be in a homeless shelter for a couple months, till you figure it out. I'm like, well, wouldn't be the first time. It'll be okay. Not many people can do that, but I can, you know, it's there's nothing wrong with loving your home and your house and your comforts. I just have not chosen that path. Michael Hingson  31:38 Yeah, that's fine. How do you how do you prepare to take a risk, especially a substantial risk? Sadia Carone  31:45 Well, you prepare you so, for example, Brazil, literally, the hand of God was like just constantly in my life. I mean, I saw Brazil win the World Cup. I go to some new random job, and my lawyer just came back from Brazil. Okay, that was pretty amazing. I think every day for about three weeks, no matter where I went, somebody would end up talking about Brazil. I would go to buy body lotion, and the cashier would be like, Oh yeah, my roommate's boyfriend is from Brazil. It was every single day. So it's half listening and half being proactive. So because Speaker 1  32:24 I was working that worked Sadia Carone  32:29 so much with Brazil, they had a newspaper where I found my cheap airline ticket, so I didn't just pack up and go overnight. And I spent like six weeks thinking about this, and I talked to the girl down there, and we kind of figured stuff out and gave notice on my apartment, and I would avoid rash decisions that are big. The bigger the decision, the more preparation you need to make. If you're thinking about going to an open mic, that's a pretty low level risk, right? You just have to get to the club and sign up and make sure that you're under three minutes. The embarrassment could be huge, but the impact on your actual life is pretty minimal, right, Michael Hingson  33:08 right? Sadia Carone  33:09 So that might not take as much preparation, although I would encourage you to time your set and make sure it's three minutes. It sounds like I just and I give the universe time to sort of prepare. I guess that makes sense, like it's not like I'm going to pack up and leave the country tomorrow. I could I have a passport, but I like to plan and look at all of the possible outcomes. A year ago, I had the opportunity to perform at flappers in Burbank, and that's kind of far for me. I had to fly, I had to book a hotel room, and I literally spent my last $700 on this trip. And I was like, Okay, you might come back. It's going to be a little scary if nothing happens. I was like, Yeah, but I'm a good comic. I think this is going to be a great opportunity for me. I think I have to do this. And I went, and it was great. And good things have come from that trip. But I came home and had like, 10 bucks, Michael Hingson  34:09 yeah, Speaker 3  34:09 about a week. Michael Hingson  34:10 Things happened Sadia Carone  34:11 a little, yep, it was a little interesting, but, but I got through it, and I am glad that I went. Michael Hingson  34:16 I remember when we were going to move to New Jersey from where we were in California, and the company I was working for wanted me to work in New York City because we were selling to Wall Street, and Wall Street likes manufacturers to have a presence. We went back to New Jersey and started looking, and we found a place where we could build a house in Westfield. My wife was in a wheelchair her whole life. So we wanted to build a house, because it's a lot cheaper to build an accessible house than to buy a house and modify it for accessibility, Sadia Carone  34:48 right? Michael Hingson  34:49 So we found this place in Westfield, New Jersey, and we came back to California, and every time we mentioned Westfield. Field that we had never heard of. But every time we mentioned Westfield, somebody heard of it, we just found so many people who knew about Westfield in one way or another. It was just one of those amazing things. I mean, for months, because we went back in January, and we eventually, well, we bought the property, and then they started building the house, but it was like August before we moved in, and it was near the end of June before my wife came back. But all the time we kept talking to people we mentioned Westfield, and somebody in California every single time we mentioned Westfield had heard of it. So I know what you're saying. It's just one of those things. Sadia Carone  35:44 Trust, Michael Hingson  35:45 clearly, universe, yeah, Sadia Carone  35:47 yeah. Like, keep your eyes open. I want to tell everybody the universe is good. The universe is a good place. There are bad people in the world, but the universe will eventually fix it. So whenever something goes wrong, like, like, that big movie studio deal that, I mean, that was worse than a breakup. I mean, I spent 18 months putting this thing together and literally pulling off miracles. Just every skill I had went into this thing, the networking, the people, thing, everything. And when that didn't happen, I had to sit down and be like, okay, Sadia, is this in any way your fault? I'm like, Well, I wasn't there, yes, because this meeting was during a time when you could not be there. Is there anything at all you could have done to prevent this? I'm like, Well, no. I mean, it was 20 people involved. No one's going to reschedule the meeting for me. So if I am blameless, then I had to figure, well, the universe will make it up to you somehow. To you somehow. You know you're you did the best you could, you're a good person. It just, it just wasn't meant to be as hard as that is to hear, Michael Hingson  36:51 yeah, Sadia Carone  36:51 I've been I had my apartment broken into here in Vegas, and all my stuff stolen. And that was really hard. It came home from work and my front door was open, and I never leave it open, and everything was gone, and I called the police, and I have to call the building, and, you know, I put my hand on the wall, and I was like, God, please help me to forgive whoever did this to me. And the guys were like, we've never seen that before. I'm like, Well, what am I going to do? I mean, I can replace the stuff. Michael Hingson  37:19 Yeah, Sadia Carone  37:20 it was a worker's comp sitch, and I ended up getting what I needed because I had taken photographs of every paper, and I had my phone so, like, they took my calendar. I didn't know where my hearing was, but thank God I found it in my photos. So when things go wrong, that's where your faith has to come in. Michael Hingson  37:40 Yeah, Sadia Carone  37:41 and it and even if I did do something wrong, right, even if I back when I was less of a wonderful person, you know, sometimes it partly was my fault, I'm like, Well, okay, learn from it and try to do better next time. But the universe is stronger than any person, anything, any job, any situation, so when stuff goes wrong. Just, I don't know how else to say this, but like, man up. Yeah, I'm so sad that didn't happen, but it's going to work itself out Michael Hingson  38:10 well, the bottom line is that you you learn to focus and you do move on. Yeah, it can hurt and things happen. We've We've all had to confront that in so many different ways. It's the usual thing. There are things that happen in the world that are not our control. Out of there are not things that we can control, but we always can control how we deal with it. And that's, I think the biggest issue is that you learn how to deal with it. You learn that if there was something that you could have done differently, you learn that, and you don't do the same thing again. If there was nothing that you can do, there's nothing you can do, and you you have to move forward. Sadia Carone  38:52 Yes, sorry. Another airplane that day, my apartment got broken into. I literally only had the clothes on my back, and I had to call my boss. I'd been at this job for three weeks, and he was such a great guy. He showed up. He showed up and handed me $600 and was like, take a few days off. Go buy some clothes. And it was a furnished apartment here in Vegas. They have lots of them. It's called a weekly and he's pointing at the furniture. He's like, is this your Should I take it? Is this your Should I take it? And for me, the hardest part was asking for help, but I could not have asked for a better response. Who does that? I hadn't been there that long, but I was one of his top employees and and he was like, anything you need. And, you know, I went out and I bought some clothes, and I had more than just the clothes on my back, but I had to sleep in them that night and wear them the next day. And it was rough. I posted on Facebook, and a bunch of people offered to help. I was a little shy. People were like, send me your target wish list. I'll buy you stuff. And I guess I I was just too traumatized or too overwhelmed. Like, I never did. I never did that, but I did get through it. And a bunch of people just stepped up to the plate. One girl gave me three bags of clothes she was going to take to Goodwill. She was like, here, just take whatever you want. Take whatever fits. I was going to donate it anyway. And so for every pot, there's a lid for every situation. There's a solution. I needed clothes. My friend had three bags of clothes she was going to give away, like just stuff like that. You would have never imagined, but so many people stepped in to help, and I'm so grateful for that. Michael Hingson  40:36 How do you deal with negative people? Sadia Carone  40:39 I try not to Michael Hingson  40:41 that's fair. Sadia Carone  40:43 I try to disengage and have the temptation. This is the mistake. I think the only sin is anger. Anger is like a fire, right? And if someone is horrible to me, and plenty of people have been your first reaction is, I'm gonna go tell them what a jerk they are. Okay? They know they're a jerk. They do in their heart. They don't need me to tell them, because the minute I start yelling back, they can yell at me for yelling, if that makes sense, yeah, but if I'm just very calm, I'm like, This is not what we agreed to. You know, usually it's people not paying me when they're supposed to. So, hey, it's Friday. I'm here for my paycheck. Oh yeah, I'll pay you Monday. This is not what we agreed to. I did the work. I'm asking for a check. Oh, well, I don't have it. Well, then please get it. So a really important lesson I learned was horrible people already know that they're horrible. It's not your job to tell them. It's just your job to disengage, and any energy that you give them strengthens the ties between you, so the more you can just very calmly, like you know this isn't working for me, or you're making decisions that make me uncomfortable. I don't think I'm the right fit. I always try to take the blame instead of You're such an idiot, Michael Hingson  42:09 get Sadia Carone  42:09 out of my face Speaker 1  42:10 like, Sadia Carone  42:10 you know, I don't think this is the right situation for me. I don't think I'm what you're looking Speaker 1  42:14 for, Sadia Carone  42:15 and then you blame yourself just to get out of it. I think that's probably the best way. You know, I see the direction this is going. I don't think I'm a good fit for this anymore. I want you to find the right person who can help Speaker 1  42:28 you achieve Sadia Carone  42:29 your shitty goals, Michael Hingson  42:32 right? But the key is not to take responsibility in your own mind, but you are trying to get out of the situation as pleasantly as you can Sadia Carone  42:42 Yes, and the other crazy thing is that people change. Michael Hingson  42:47 Yeah, Sadia Carone  42:48 you know, just because somebody was amazing and your job was amazing a week ago, stuff can change. Maybe you change. Maybe you decide you want to move to a different city. Maybe the job changes. You get a new boss, or you get a new client, or your favorite client quits, or whatever. So just because it was amazing last week doesn't mean you have to stay when it's no longer amazing, Michael Hingson  43:12 right? Sadia Carone  43:12 Like, if you if you trust the people kind of share your concerns, like, hey, this was supposed to be a 20 hour week job, and now it's become a 45 hour week job. Can I get more money? Or can we do this? Can we do that? What's being expected of me has changed, so I'd like that reflected in my pay, you know, talk to them about it. Try to be brave enough to at least address it like a grown up. Don't go run. Don't just quit and run away. But, yeah, there are some negative people. I mean, a friend of mine once told me, if you have haters, you must be doing something right. And I do have a couple of them, and I just don't talk to them. Speaker 1  43:53 I see Sadia Carone  43:54 them at events. I know who they are. They know who I am, and I just stay away. I don't care what you're saying about me. People who know me know and people who don't know me, I don't care. Michael Hingson  44:04 Well they are well, you know, I've never well. I've learned not to accept the concept of failure. I think failure is is such a negative thing, but I do realize that we do things that don't turn out the way we want, and we then have to deal with them. What's what's one time that all that happened to you? I say, I hate to use the word failure, but I can say, when's the time that you failed, but when's the time something didn't really work out? And I understand you talked about the big business effort, but that wasn't something that you really had control over. So what's something where you really had control over it and it didn't happen the way you wanted? Sadia Carone  44:46 Well, one of the big reasons I went for to Brazil was I was watching a lot of Spanish TV, and sometimes the words didn't match their mouths. Speaker 3  44:54 And Sadia Carone  44:55 I heard from my my Latin friends, that a lot of TV comes out of Brazil. Oh, now I was so ignorant. I was like, wait, they have TV cameras Michael Hingson  45:07 in person. Sadia Carone  45:07 People have told me that I'm good, that this was not completely unrealistic. I wanted to be a star on a global TV show, Michael Hingson  45:15 okay? Sadia Carone  45:15 And that definitely did not happen. I was an extra a few times, and I met some important people, but I think the culture in New York and the culture in Brazil are so different. In New York. If I met Steven Spielberg in New York, right? The correct thing to do is, Hi, sir, I'm a huge fan. Would love to work with you. Could I get your email? Send you over my stuff, right? Super chill in Brazil. You're supposed to be the exact opposite. Oh, my God, it wasn't small my whole life, like the more intense you are, the more seriously they take you. So I met these huge novella directors, but I didn't behave in a way that they expected. And so you could say, in a sense, my time in Brazil was a failure, because I didn't get married down there. I didn't get the career I thought it was gonna have. But I have to remember, and I think of all the friends I made because I'm native speaker. Oh, so I'm a good teacher, and all my teaching them not a Brazilian who spent three days in New York. And I'm not being snobby, it's just a fact, English is hard, and I wouldn't teach Portuguese, and I lived there for two years. So, you know, be that as it may. So I think a big problem when we think about failure is we set our sights too high. I probably am not going to win an Academy Award two actresses a year when the odds are astronomical, but what I can be proud of is that I'm in the Union, and my union sent me to teach stand up comedy. I went to the University of Reno in Northern Nevada, and I taught a stand up comedy workshop for my union. And it might not sound like a lot, but that's really amazing. They paid my ticket, they paid my flight, they paid my hotel, you know, everything and so that's really huge. Is it an Academy Award? No, is it making my life, my whole living off of acting? No, not yet, but we keep raising the bar. I used to think I would never join the Screen Actors Guild. It seemed impossible, but then I did, you know, and so when, when it's a failure, just, just make sure that your baseline is in the right place, Michael Hingson  47:32 right? Sadia Carone  47:33 I might not have won an Academy Award, but I've been in TV shows that people have heard of, and I had a speaking part in a film it just never got released. Well, that's not my fault, but I was good enough to get the part, and I took direction. And, you know, I've got friends in the industry, and people know me as someone who's honest and reliable and hard working and prepared, and it could change tomorrow. I can't get my big call. Michael Hingson  48:00 Yeah, yeah, it's all perspective. And the reality is that that, in a sense, yeah, you didn't get an Academy Award for doing that comedy workshop. But as you point out, a lot of good things come from those kinds of things, and it's all an investment. Sadia Carone  48:17 Yeah. And again, what's an Academy Award? I mean, do I want to be recognized for my talent. Do I want to be on TV? Do I want to feel like, you know, a big success? Success means lots of things. I performed at Jimmy Kimmel's here in Las Vegas 20 times on three or four different shows. That's amazing. Like I remember three years ago and that seemed like an impossibility. So, so what is failure? I mean, well, I didn't get what I want. Well, okay, who else wants what you want? Every actress in the country wants an academy award that that's a lot of people, and most of us are going to be disappointed. But I can go do stand up and make people laugh. You know, that's amazing. I can I try to, you know, teach people about about the union here in Nevada, where a right to work state, so the laws are very different from California. And whenever I'm on a big shoot with like, three or 400 extras, you know, there's always people that know me because we've worked together so many times. And I'm really happy that people come and ask me questions and I can give them the honest truth. And, you know, maybe my world is not planet Earth, maybe my world is just Las Vegas, Nevada, and that's okay, you know, it's not Ohio. I accomplished. My initial goal was to get out of Ohio, and I did, and I have an album, and that's amazing. And I know music people, I know acting people, I know producing people. I've got 7000 people in my LinkedIn. I don't often brag about that, because I think you shouldn't, but every single one of them is important to me. Yeah, the 699th and the 7,031st like. I won't post it there, but that 7000 people that that want to read what I write, Michael Hingson  50:07 right? Well, Sadia Carone  50:08 it's Michael Hingson  50:09 amazing, Speaker 1  50:09 yeah, right. Sadia Carone  50:11 Well, with those numbers, because I had them too, Michael Hingson  50:16 right? Let me ask you this. You say that when it comes to creative careers, nobody goes from Little League to major leagues all at once, and they they take a long time to get there. Explain that, if you would Sadia Carone  50:33 sure, so everybody has this dream of, I'll be walking down the street and I'll be given back, or I'll have the perfect look for some film. Now that might have happened in the 50s. I think Lana Turner was discovered sipping a soda outside of Hollywood High. That doesn't happen anymore. So when I talk about Little League, that's like, what six, seven year olds playing T ball, and they're just learning the game. No matter how good you are in Little League, no one is going to invite you to the majors. If you're lucky, you might get invited in high school, but even that's rare. So if your goal is to be an in an Academy Award Level film, meaning that it gets national distribution and it's a big budget Hollywood film, how are you going to get there? Well, you might want to take some acting classes. You might want to do some student films. I would highly recommend that you get involved in theater, both on stage, Jim backstage, and then you're probably going to do some extra work, like I did. And then, you know, there's a million different ways it could go from there, but, but you know, you can't shoot for the moon if you've never done any astronaut stuff like, it's okay to have the big dreams, but then we have to reverse engineer, and you might realize that you could get off your butt and go to a comedy club, even if you just sit and watch that counts, Right? You're too scared to get up and do it. Or you could go rent a foreign movie, or go rent the Academy Award winning films from 1965 like there's millions of steps you can take to get closer to your goal, but you've got to understand it's not going to it's just not going to happen overnight. There is one story. This guy is like a bad legend. He was an extra on a die hard film, and he got plucked out of the group to say three words, and he suddenly thought he was the king of the set. And he ran around telling everybody how he wanted his trailer. He went to the chef and said, You better have some whatever food I like tomorrow, because now this guy was such an ass that they ended up tearing up his contract and he got blacklisted. Michael Hingson  52:50 Gosh, Sadia Carone  52:51 so even if it does happen, yeah, oh no, I just dropped my headphones. Headphones dropped. The headphones dropped. Sorry, I got, I got too animated. The headphones dropped. I don't think the microphone is still there Michael Hingson  53:02 it is. Sadia Carone  53:03 I get so upset when I think about that guy. And even if it does happen, you're not prepared for it, so you probably don't want it to happen like that. Speaker 1  53:12 You Sadia Carone  53:12 know, that guy had what most people would have considered the dream, but he wasn't prepared, and he crashed and burned. So there's rules. Hey, it's hard to be an actor. Can you do the same thing 27 times exactly the same? Probably not. That takes work. And you know, the whole thing of Michael Hingson  53:34 it goes beyond acting. I mean, it's true for any kind of situation, any kind of job, it's all about preparation. Sadia Carone  53:41 Yeah, no one's gonna make you CEO overnight, like, go get your MBA. If that that's your path, go do some work. But again, we're in such an instant gratification society, even if it happened that could be the worst thing for you, because you're not gonna know what you're doing no matter what it is, right, you've written books. You know, it takes work to write a book. You got to sit you got to actually write the book. Yeah, that's half the battle. Then you got to get it published and blah, blah. So, yes, being a published author is amazing, but there's a lot of stuff that goes into it. Michael Hingson  54:17 Yeah, you have said that one of the best things about comedy is the comics, and the worst thing about comedy is the comics. What do you mean by that? Speaker 3  54:26 I Michael Hingson  54:27 don't you love that. Speaker 3  54:29 Well, Michael Hingson  54:32 we should put that on the Calvin album. But anyway, go ahead. Sadia Carone  54:35 No, we should. So if it's not self explanatory, I have met some of the most amazing people who are comics, and they're kind, they're generous, they're funny, they're sweet, they're helpful. At the same time, though, the bar to do stand up is horrifically low, literally. Are you over 21 and do you have a pulse? Anybody? Can go to an open mic. And there are many paths in stand up. Some people go the weed, cocaine. And you know, what am I saying? Intimate favor route. That has not been my path. But if you bring weed to the host, and if you're willing to do things, you can progress very rapidly in your career. That is not how I choose to do things, and I'm I'm happy to suffer the consequences of that. But if you are someone who's chosen the weed, cocaine and intimate favor path, when someone like me comes along who's actually funny and a good person and doesn't hate herself for the personal sacrifices one may have made. There's going to be that negativity between us. It's not coming from me. I look like a thread because I'm sober and friendly and unashamed, and, you know, not afraid of what I've done. So that if you go, even if you just go see comedy. If you liked a comic set, they're three minutes. Go tell them. Follow on follow them on Instagram. Show up two or three times, and you'll have a new friend. You know, it's that easy, but if you didn't like someone's set, just shut up. I mean, I've been on stage with people I can't stand. What do I do? Hey, good set. Nice to see you. I didn't quite lie. You pretty much always have to say good set, because it's just professional Michael Hingson  56:29 courtesy. Other part about that is that that the really quality people are going to be the ones who succeed anyway Sadia Carone  56:36 in the long run, one hopes, like the music industry, it is possible to be a bad person and to be a successful comic like that's just all there is to it. You do have to have some talent, but you can be a horrible person and have a music career. You can have a comedy career, you can have a modeling career, you can even have an acting career. It makes it more difficult, Michael Hingson  57:02 and I guess universe will eventually catch up to you, though, somehow, some way, Sadia Carone  57:07 right, right, right, right. I would rather be honest and good and a good person and get my stuff honestly. That's the path I took. You are free to choose whatever path you want, but this is my path. I actually had a comic who has a pretty famous show. He came up to me, and he was like, people are talking about you. And I said, What do you mean? And he said, they don't like you. I said, Oh, what have I done to not be liked? And he was like, Well, this guy always brings me weed when I Book him, and this guy brought me Coke, and this guy brought me a hooker. And I was like, okay, I can see what's going on here. I think I need to excuse myself from the conversation. You know, I'm not gonna cry. I'm not gonna nope, like you chose that path. If you don't like me, well, that's okay. I can do other stuff. There's other clubs. There's other things I can do. If I had to give one piece of advice to people, I would say, please get an education. I have two degrees. I speak a bunch of languages, so when stuff goes sideways, anywhere, I can pack up and go somewhere else. If you never went to college, if you start doing stand up and that's your only path, then you might be willing to make sacrifices. Michael Hingson  58:26 Yeah, but yeah, and it's not just a college education, and I think that's extremely important, by the way, I love learning, but it's also learning about life and I and that's why I said what I did about the universe eventually catches up. I've just seen so many examples, even on the news. Yeah, people who who ended up with with drug issues and all that, they die early. Too many things happen to them. So I hear what what you're saying. I had a chance once to watch Don Rickles on Donahue. That dates me a long time ago. But one of the things that he said, and I had never thought about it, about him and that before he said it was he said, I don't really want to tick people off. He said, I want to make fun of people. I want to have fun with people. But if I'm performing and I see somebody in the audience who I'm picking on, who is becoming offended or becoming angry at what I say, I'll stop doing it to them. I will leave them alone. Sadia Carone  59:22 Yeah, Michael Hingson  59:23 and I Yeah. I thought about that afterward, and he and I started watching other things that he did, and I and I saw that he was absolutely right. He wouldn't pick on people if they were becoming angry or whatever, offend Sadia Carone  59:35 or hurt. Yeah, Michael Hingson  59:36 he didn't want to offend people. He wanted to entertain. And I thought that was such a wonderful way to put it, you know. And the reality is that that if you really looked at it in that vein, and you could see why he was such a funny guy, and you wouldn't be offended by him, but yeah, well, this I'm pretty Sadia Carone  59:56 tall and thin. One time people hated me. They they. Called me olive oil, and I just left it off because I didn't care. But we all have that thing that we're kind of sensitive about. Michael Hingson  1:00:06 Yeah, things happen. Well, if people want to reach out to you, maybe learn more about you and so on. How do they do that? Sadia Carone  1:00:14 Certainly, my LinkedIn is my first name and then my last name. Both are somewhat unusual Michael Hingson  1:00:19 spell, Speaker 1  1:00:20 if you Sadia Carone  1:00:20 would, oh, yes. S like Sam, A, D like David. I A. My last name looks like car one, Saudi Caron, if you make it all one word that's my Insta. My album is in my bio, but don't open it at work. The cover is cartoon. It's not super offensive, but it is mildly offensive to some people. Sometimes, uh, let's see, yeah, my Instagram and my LinkedIn are probably the best way. And if you want to email me, it's just my first name.my, last [email protected], yes, thank you. Michael Hingson  1:00:55 Well, cool. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank everyone for being here with us today and and observing this we've been going for over an hour. Can you believe it? What fun. Yeah, check the time. It's Sadia Carone  1:01:09 Oh my gosh, you're right. Michael Hingson  1:01:10 What can I say? Well, so and I want to thank you all for listening. I'd love to hear from you what. Tell me what you think about having Sadia on and what you think of what she had to say. I'd love to get your thoughts. Email me. Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, we'd love it if you'd give us a five star rating wherever you're listening to us and watching us, and please give us a review. We appreciate that. And for all of you, including you, Sadia, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. Love to hear from you. Please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to to talk with and to have come on, because I think everyone has stuff to teach all of us. So we really appreciate that. But again, Saudi agree, yeah, but I want to thank you again for being here and just, I just want to tell you that we really appreciate it. Thank you for your time, and this has been a lot of fun. Sadia Carone  1:02:08 Likewise, thank you so much. I could talk to you all day, but I know you have to go and do other things. Michael Hingson  1:02:15 Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others. I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear, it explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening, keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. You Speaker 1  1:03:20 you.

What happens when someone who teaches healing suddenly must fight for her own? Dr. Joi Lewis joins me for a powerful conversation about surviving a massive stroke, rebuilding life through radical self-care, and learning how community, meditation, faith, and curiosity can help people heal. Raised in East St. Louis, Joi shares how her upbringing shaped her deep belief in connection, public service, and emotional liberation. You’ll hear how she moved from higher education leadership into healing justice work, why she believes isolation is dangerous, and how practices like mindfulness, conscious movement, and meditation became critical tools during her recovery. This conversation explores disability, resilience, trust, healing, and what it really means to live with an unstoppable mindset. Highlights: 00:59 How community shaped her mindset growing up in East St. Louis. 08:47 Surviving a massive stroke and adapting to disability. 15:14 Why radical self-care is essential for healing. 21:16 How faith and music support her recovery journey. 35:35 The four parts of the Orange Method for healing. 50:19 How an “energy bank” helps restore emotional health. About the Guest: "Dr. Joi” Lewis is CEO of Joi Unlimited (www.drjoilewis.com) and Founder of The Healing Justice Foundation (www.healingjusticefoundation.org). Joi Unlimited is a crisis, conflict, and change management firm specializing in transformation of systems and self for collective and individual liberation. The Healing Justice Foundation’s mission is to reclaim the inherent dignity, brilliance, and humanity of all Black people. Dr. Joi (as many fondly call her) is known locally, nationally, and globally as a facilitator of liberation, radical self-care expert, and community healer. What that means is she helps individuals, institutions, and communities heal from oppression-induced historic and present day trauma, using Healing Justice (Radical Self-Care + Social Justice) as an on ramp to reclaim our own humanity and each others’. Dr. Joi is the author of Healing: The Act of Radical Self-Care, based on her transformative process the Orange Method (OM) of Healing Justice, and of the meditation journal and affirmation deck May the Revolution Be Healing. She is a social entrepreneur and a highly sought-after speaker and executive coach. Dr. Joi inspires us to hold heartbreak and “joy” because they run from the same faucet. Her work is deeply informed by growing up in East St. Louis, Illinois. Dr. Joi completed her doctoral work at the University of Pennsylvania, conducted research in South Africa, had a 20+ year career on college campuses as Dean, Faculty, Vice President and Chief Diversity Officer. She is an unapologetic joy instigator, a certified kemetic and hot vinyasa yoga teacher, a facilitator of meditation and mindfulness and a food prep pro, who lives in St. Paul, Minnesota. In July of 2024, Dr. Joi survived a massive stroke and has recommitted to the practices of the Orange Method as she prioritizes her own radical self care. Dr. Joi is on a mission to “put healing in the hands of anyone, anywhere.” Ways to connect with Joi: https://www.joiunlimited.com/ https://www.healingjusticefoundation.org/ Facebook: Dr Joi Lewis Instagram: @drjoi LinkedIn: Dr Joi Lewis About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What if the thing you struggle with most could become your greatest strength? In this episode, I sit down with Dennis Szymanski, a semiconductor engineer who has lived with a stutter his entire life and learned to manage it through a powerful mix of science, self-awareness, and holistic living. Dennis shares how his journey through speech therapy, stress management, and personal growth shaped both his mindset and his career in nanoscale engineering and compound semiconductors. You will hear how early support, resilience, and curiosity helped him move from struggling to speak to confidently presenting, creating, and even writing a children’s book. I believe you will find this conversation inspiring as it shows how challenges can guide you toward purpose, clarity, and an unstoppable mindset. Highlights: 00:10 Learn how early support and environment shape confidence and long term growth 09:43 Understand what it means to live with a stutter and manage it daily 11:10 Discover why the root cause of stuttering is still not fully understood 35:07 Learn how speech therapy has shifted toward treating the whole person 47:32 Understand how stress directly affects speech and performance 56:01 Discover how creativity and purpose come together through writing and innovation About the Guest: Hello everyone! My name is Dennis Szymanski, and I was born and raised on Long Island, New York. Over the course of my life, I have moved 11 times up and down the East Coast of the U.S., meeting many people and having amazing experiences, all the while working on my relationship with my stutter. I currently embrace my inner beach bum and reside in a sleepy North Carolina beach town with my girlfriend Samantha and Lennie the turtle. I have spent the better part of my academic and professional career in the semiconductor industry. I hold a Ph.D. in Materials Science and Engineering from North Carolina State University and currently work as a Product Engineer for a U.K. semiconductor manufacturing firm. In my personal life I enjoy playing disc golf, reading, playing the trumpet, yoga, entrepreneurship, public speaking, and any water sport you can imagine. The beach has always been, and forever will be, my home, my place of peace and solitude, a place to "Be As You Are". As a stutterer, I have practiced the physical art of communication ever since I have been able to talk. As a trumpet player, I understand the power of controlled breath. As an Engineer, I always strive to dig deeper. As a communicator, I believe it is all about connecting with people. As a human being, I endeavor to live a holistic life, where each facet compliments the others. My stutter made me a better engineer, just like my understanding of controlled breath as a trumpet player has made me a better communicator. I find myself to be a lifelong learner, believing that there is room for constant improvement even if, somewhat ironically, the area for necessary improvement is my (in)ability to rest and recharge. I love to travel and take much of my inspiration from the world around me. A change of scenery, pace, environment, and/or people is almost always welcomed in my life. No matter if I am out on the surfboard, generating an engineer data sheet, or giving a talk on stage, I live my life by once simple sentence: “It is all about the people.” Ways to connect with Dennis: website link is www.drdennyeddie.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dennisszymanski/ TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@drdennyeddie Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drdennyeddie/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dennis.szymanski.35 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities, this podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear. Together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, howdy, once again, everyone and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. It is a wonderful time here. We're recording this just a couple of days before Thanksgiving, and I especially give thanks for the fact that I get to join all of you and do these podcasts. So I want to thank you all for being here, and I want to thank our guest, Dennis Edward Szymanski, we're going to stick with Dennis, but we really appreciate you being here. And Dennis is involved with semiconductors. He lives life to the fullest. We were just talking before we started about his turtle. Lenny the turtle, he can he can talk about that if he wishes. And he also has some other interesting things that I'm looking forward to chatting about since he brought it up, and that is that he is, among other things, or he was, a stutterer, and so he lives with his stutter. He now lives in North Carolina on a beach, so it's his inner beach bum that he is supporting anyway. Dennis, without all without going in any much more detail about any of this, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here, Dennis Szymanski  02:15 Michael, not just because it's Thanksgiving. I am very grateful and thankful to be here with you, to have met you, as well as to be here with all the guests on unstoppable mindset and all the listeners to us, whether you're watching listening, it's great to be here and happy to have this great discussion here with you today. Michael Hingson  02:36 Well, we're glad you're here, and this will I'm looking forward to it. This will be a lot of fun. Why don't we start with kind of the early Dennis. I don't always start that way. Start with kind of the early growing up person, and let's go from there. Dennis Szymanski  02:50 Of course, I think a good place to start a lot of the time is the beginning. So I I'm a New Yorker, born and raised on Long Island to two very loving parents who have been supportive throughout all of my endeavors, from supporting me and my stuttering journey to encouraging me to pursue other outlets like music, encouraging me to stick to my academics and and even supporting my love of pets, which, as you alluded to, I have a turtle right now. Her name is Lenny, but she she is one of many dogs, lizards, hamsters, ferrets, chinchillas, birds. We've had a lot of pets growing up, and you know that that has informed, actually a lot of my current worldview, but we can, we can get to that later. Michael Hingson  03:45 What does your girlfriend think about all that? Dennis Szymanski  03:48 Well, my girlfriend is a four legged pet woman herself staying outside of tanks. That's, that's one of her remits. So Lenny, we got to realize our shared dream, me, my girlfriend, and Lenny of getting Lenny out of the house, out of the tank and into a pond in the backyard of my home here on the coast of North Carolina. So we're all happy. It's, it's been a, it's been an amazing summer. They are getting us all out of the house. So that's a good thing. You know, she's she's very supportive of of Lenny. We, we had two dogs together. Unfortunately, they were old and have since passed on. But we're planning to get some some, some new four legged friends down the line. And we are even in the process of courting, adopting a stray cat that is hanging around our our neighborhood. So it's a nice it's a nice middle ground there not as much responsibility as a dog, you know, a stray cat, but still the potential for the companionship and for the routine and for taking care of something that I know we. Both miss being absent dogs. Not that Lenny doesn't take taking care of it's just a different companion, yeah, different kind of pet Michael Hingson  05:10 we we have my guide dog, Alamo, and as listeners know, we also have stitch, the cat, who will be 16. We think in January, we rescued her. We think at about the age of five, family didn't want her, and they said, Take her to the pound. And we said, No, we'll find her a home. And along the way, I happened to ask what the cat's name was, and they told me that the cat's name was stitch. And I knew this cat wasn't going to go anywhere, since Karen had been a professional quilter since 1994 so quilters aren't going to give up an animal named stitch. Dennis Szymanski  05:44 No, too, too many coincidences there to just not, not go ahead with stitch. Yeah, so, Michael Hingson  05:53 so stitch is with us. Dennis Szymanski  05:55 We, we, we think a very similar way all the pets that I had, I actually never had a cat that was my own, just parents were allergic. Sister was allergic, things like this. Brother was allergic. But when our most recent dog passed, we noticed that this cat started coming around at a very at only a few weeks before he passed. So we think that they had a little bit of a conversation to say that, you know, a little changing of the guard, a proper handoff, if, if you will. So we're looking forward to having our tuxedo cat, which we named very appropriately and affectionately tuxy. We're unsure if it's a boy or a girl, yet. So we went with tuxi butcher, straying back from, from, from the original topic, coming back on, yes, the stray cat pun was somewhat intended. I get it born and raised, Long Island, New York. I left there when I was 17 out of high school to pursue my undergraduate degree in engineering, I stepping back a little bit. My father's a insurance agent, but a serial entrepreneur. He cut his teeth in the insurance industry, but now is heavily involved in a cybersecurity startup. So a man who wears many hats, and my mother is in it. So my first desk job, if you will, was in computers, and that kind of led me down the path of some sort of engineering related to computers. So I went up to the colleges of nanoscale science and engineering up in Albany, New York, for those familiar with the SUNY system, it's a State University in New York up in Albany, where I did four years there, and I studied nano scale engineering, which is a fancy way to say material science, with a focus in semiconductors, which led me to take my first job in industry while I was actually still getting my undergraduate degree, which bolstered my decision to continue on down here to North Carolina. I actually took my first step down in Raleigh as a PhD candidate at NC State, where I studied material science and engineering as well. And two things I've always you know, kept close is the love of business as it relates to technology. So I have a minor in business from my time in undergrad, as well as I took several MBA courses and got a technology Entrepreneurship Certificate from from NC State. So I take the business and the technology. I've married those into a career here as a product engineer for a compound semiconductor manufacturer, all of which we can get into a little bit more. But the other love that I keep close and have recently had a renaissance in my life, is my love of music. I was actually faced with a choice of music or engineering back when a lot of us started to apply to college or university at that time in their life, in high school, and I chose the engineering route, but but always kept the love of music. It was my first paying job, playing in a gig, playing gigs in bars when I was younger and right now I actually, like I said, I'm having a renaissance. I took a little bit of a hiatus while life got busy in grad school and getting my feet under me in the corporate world, taking my first job, but learned to to understand the need, the need that my brain, you know, to have that left brain, right brain, creative mind, logical mind flexed, and just to to have the time to myself. It's something that I enjoy, something that I've enjoyed since I'm eight years old. And, you know, I'm happy to keep continuing it. And I want to finish the opening monolog here, if you will. With. With something you said that I'm a lifelong stutterer, and ever since I opened my mouth, I can remember having disfluent speech, and I have to say that the biggest support that my parents ever gave me was encouraging me, as well as helping me at a very young age start in speech therapy, I I have met so many people in my life that Dennis Szymanski  10:32 did not have supporting parents or a supporting situation, and to To see that impact and that thread be traced throughout my life, and, you know, and juxtaposing it to other people's lives, it really makes a difference to have that supporting environment, that belief, because, you know, you said it, I live with the stutter Every day. It's very well managed. Now in my life, there was a time where I could not finish a sentence when I was in elementary school, early middle school, without having a stutter. But now I've learned through speech techniques, living my life in a relatively holistic way, how stress relates to my stutter and so many other things that I can manage it a lot better. But as my fellow stuttering people out there that might be listening, you always live with it. You know you're you're never, quote, unquote, cured. You're always having that stutter, managing it, whether it's overtly or covertly, it's always there. But very happy to get into all of that and more here with with you Michael, as as we kick off the episode. Michael Hingson  11:54 So what? What causes stuttering? Do we really know Dennis Szymanski  11:59 that's what, in part, is so fascinating is that we can't really pinpoint it, whereas to say this part of the brain for sure is, you know, impacting this part of your vocal cord in this way. And if we get in there and treat it however way it's going to go away there, of course, is ideas that you know certain parts of your brain have more of an impact or influence, and that it does directly relate to your vocal cords, because, at least from my stutter, how It works, and how I could, you know, most effectively explain it is my vocal cords simply lock up. So normal vocal cord operation, it's like a string on a violin, right, or string on a guitar. If you pluck it, it resonates, vibrates, makes sound. Your vocal cords work just the same, but their mechanism of quote, unquote, plucking is the air that you breathe. So if they lock up, you don't have vibration, you don't have sound, you don't have speech. And what's interesting is that if you were to put your your your ear or your hand to my mouth during a stuttering episode, there's still air flow like there's still air leaving my mouth, just as it does during fluent speech, but there's just no action and something else that is very interesting about the You know, my my stutter, and I've talked to other stutterers that have a similar experience, is that we know what we want to say. It's all upstairs. It's all formulated. It's just the physical blocking of the vocal cord, at least in my case and I, I make the, you know, the I make it important to say my case, because there is very different manifestations of stuttering, stammering, how one might block, how one might repeat a word. What are different triggers, etc. So in a nutshell, we don't really know which is why there's so many different theories, methodologies of treatment, how to cope, deal with, treat the the stud itself. Michael Hingson  14:32 Yeah, it's, it's fascinating, and I appreciate you giving us that explanation of it. It is something that I think is very important to point out that one of the things you mentioned is extremely crucial. Your parents were supportive. They helped you. My parents did the same thing when it was discovered that I was blind. Yeah, and a number of parents have really bought into helping their children recognize they can do whatever they choose and that they can deal with so many different issues. And oftentimes we also hear about parents who don't support some people succeed in spite of it, and some do not. But it's so important to really know that we, some of us, have parents who really help and and will do anything that they can to assist us in making life better for us Dennis Szymanski  15:41 and when we first got connected, and then afterwards, doing more listening to your talks, and other episodes of unstoppable mindset, I had learned that your parents were were supportive as well, and that made a mental note, as a matter of fact, to bring this up here in this talk, because I could not agree more the importance of support of your parents, especially as a young child, that's where everything starts. But then even as we grow our friends, you know, larger family and the networks that that that we keep is are so important to our development success as individuals. Michael Hingson  16:24 Yeah, so your parents are still with us. Dennis Szymanski  16:28 They both. Are they both? Are they divorced when I was very young, but that, again, you know, had no bearing on the support and the love I have a stepfather and a stepmother who are equally incredible and supportive. I always said I just got double the family that loves and cares. There you go. And my mother still lives on Long Island in the house where I grew up, so I love to go visit. Was just back there a couple of weeks ago, and are heading back up, you know, a couple of weeks time. And my dad actually lives in South Carolina. He relocated with my stepmother and my brother. They are around the Columbia area, so we're actually both Dennis' in the Carolinas. So that's actually quite nice. And I'm just just just saw him a couple of days ago, and I'm gonna see him, you know, on the Thanksgiving holiday as well. So looking forward to, looking forward to that. Michael Hingson  17:31 Well, last time I was back in the New York area for any length of time, I spent a week last year in Lindenhurst speaking to the Lindenhurst union free school district, and that was a lot of fun. Fortunately, it was before the snow hit. Oh, yeah, Lindenhurst. Dennis Szymanski  17:51 Lindenhurst was about a half an hour from where I grew up, one of the many, many towns that is the infinite urban sprawl of Long Island. Michael Hingson  18:00 Yeah. Well, yep. Well, it was fun. I was there for almost a week, and spoke to lots of sixth, seventh and eighth graders, did some faculty training, but enjoyed the area, and I've enjoyed Long Island every time I've been out there. So it was kind of fun. Well, I want to go back to this idea of nano scale. Tell me a little bit more about nano scale engineering. Dennis Szymanski  18:26 Absolutely, like I said, it's basically material science and engineering, but with a focus in semiconductors. So having had the hindsight now traditional material science background from NC State. When I went to do my graduate work, things like traditional material science, so metal stress strain curves. Didn't learn that in undergrad, focusing in semiconductors, I learned about transistors and the ethics of scaling semiconductor technology and computer programming at a very basic level that could help run certain parts of a semiconductor process. So very specific, very targeted focus that was nanoscale engineering. I was very fortunate to be the sixth graduating class out of the small colleges of nanoscale science and engineering. Like I said, that was part of the SUNY Albany system, and very hands on. I was in a building on the University's campus that was essentially an office building with 250 private companies pooling their resources in the office space as well as laboratory space, clean room space, but with a couple of classrooms. So not only was I rubbing shoulders with classmates, I was rubbing shoulders with people who worked at IBM or global founder. Or ASML Tokyo electron. These are big international companies that play in the semiconductor manufacturing space, and little did I know that was going to kickstart this incredible journey that has led me here to being a product engineer for a compound semiconductor manufacturer focused on gallium nitride power technology. So where people might be hearing this is in the AI data center talk. This material is going to enable faster, cheaper, cooler, more efficient chips, as well as you might have noticed, electric vehicles, your laptop, even your cell phone, charging a little faster and in recent years, and those bricks that used to sit on your lap and burn your lap get there, they're cooler. They're not as hot. All of these are direct advancements in compound semiconductor technology, semiconductor technology and essentially nanoscale engineering. And to go to its most fundamental route, you know engineer, nanoscale engineering is engineering on the nanoscale. And where we're at with semiconductor technology is we are looking at in silicon, a transistor is about a nanometer, two nanometers, which to put it in perspective for everybody listening, your hair, the width of your hair is 60 to 80 micrometers and nanometers are three orders of magnitude smaller, smaller than micrometers. So you can imagine that the reason we need clean rooms in semiconductor manufacturing is because one of your hair could wipe out hundreds, if not 1000s, of transistors on one of the chips, which nobody wants, right? You want a good manufacturing process that has high yield. So nano scale engineering has been was, was the start for for me with you know, the continuation of that has been to go into, as I said, material science in a more quote, unquote, proper sense, learning those stress strain curves, learning a little bit of polymer science, All applications and material science, but staying focused from age 17 till now on nanoscale engineering, which is material science focused, and semiconductors, Michael Hingson  22:51 if I recall, right, transistors were developed somewhere around 1948, so I mean, my gosh, that's only 77 years ago, ago, and look how far we've come. Dennis Szymanski  23:05 It truly is mind boggling. Michael Hingson  23:08 Michael, at the same time, we need to do something to figure out how to stop so many lithium ion batteries from causing fires somewhere. Dennis Szymanski  23:19 It's they're both material science problems for sure that that need to be tackled. I agree, Michael Hingson  23:26 yeah, one of those things that we're we're on the cusp of so many different developments. People talk about autonomous vehicles and so on. But, you know, the reality is, we're on the cusp. We're living through the the change that is coming. And personally, from my perspective, in my opinion, I can't wait for the time that we get to take driving out of the hands of drivers, because too many drivers don't do very well. Dennis Szymanski  23:55 You know, I have a very similar opinion, even though I will say one of my childhood dreams was to become a race car driver. So I do love to drive. I had an eighth of a mile go kart track in my backyard growing up, and one of the things that kept my sanity during my PhD program was going to the local go kart track and getting to put in some time trials. So I love to drive, but from a safety perspective, I could not agree with you more that it's high time that that we can implement some better safety and probably less traffic. Michael Hingson  24:33 Well, given the way most people seem to drive up here in Victorville or out here in Victorville, I am of the absolute opinion that I can drive as well as they can anyway, so Dennis Szymanski  24:44 we'll see. You know coming, coming from the New York driving environment to the North Carolina driving environment. Some things are similar, some things are very different, but, but it's definitely been, been fun spending almost half of my life. You know now down down down here in North Carolina, we had Michael Hingson  25:04 some people visiting us when my wife and I lived in New Jersey, and we drove into the city, and they said that the people who are with us, these cab drivers, are crazy. Just look at the way they drive. I would never want to be in a cab with with any of those drivers. And Karen pointed out, my wife pointed out something very relevant and so true for most cab drivers, at least back then, she said, look at those cabs. Do you see any dents? Do you see any dings? And they said, No. And she said, So what do you mean? You wouldn't want to be in those cars. You're probably safer in those cars than most anywhere else. Dennis Szymanski  25:48 She was right. She makes a good point. Michael Hingson  25:50 Practice. Makes perfect. It does. I love checker cabs, but we don't see those anymore. That's too bad. But oh well. But you know, one of the one way or another, I think that the time will come when autonomous vehicles will will make driving a lot safer, and that'll be good. But we're not there yet, and we're not there with with so many things I mentioned, the lithium ion batteries, they would they too will get better, and we will get over all of that. Now, of course, what we need to do is to make sure that we still have rare earth elements around. But that's going to be another challenge that we face over time. Dennis Szymanski  26:27 Yes, that's that's part of the fun, Michael, of being actually in material science as a discipline that it encompasses so many different touch points that we have in our life. One of my closest friends and was a colleague in my PhD program, is working on solid state battery technology that could potentially replace lithium ion technology and solve some of those problems just and it spans the whole gamut. I have a friend doing nuclear waste remediation. So very, very cool material science as a whole. You know, I'm obviously very enveloped in and my love is semiconductors, but my insatiable curiosity, I think I'm in the right field at Michael Hingson  27:20 large, yeah. What's the difference between incumbent semiconductors and compound semiconductors? Dennis Szymanski  27:30 Incumbent semiconductor technology has been predominantly silicon. So the raw material is you go to the beach and you get sand. That's obviously very oversimplifying. I'm not saying that you know TSMC or Global Foundries, or any of these guys are going to the nearest beach, but that is the raw material. It's very high purity. Silicon and compound semiconductors, on the other hand, are still very pure. That's one of the biggest material challenges of semiconductors at large, is to make them pure. But, and I'm glossing over a ton of physics and a ton of material science when I say pure. So just for any any fellow material science colleagues out there listening, I am aware that I glossed over a lot, but compound semiconductors are compound so you have two or more elements that come together that have semiconducting properties. So indium phosphide, indium and phosphorus, gallium nitride, gallium and nitrogen, aluminum gallium nitride, aluminum gallium and nitrogen. So they all come together. And what's very, very handy about these compound semiconductors is they can address a lot of niche applications in a much more efficient way than the incumbent silicon technology. So silicon technology can do a lot, I'm going to venture to say, almost everything we need. But the perfect example, and is on the top of everybody's mind is AI. You're not going to have AI in the form that we know it, if at all, without these compound semiconductors, silicon is just too inefficient. It's, you know, we've, we've reached certain limits at the material level that we need these compound semiconductors to get more efficient, AI, faster data interconnects, even, you know, charging your phone, laptop, electric vehicle, quicker, all of these are enabled. Enabled, and then to continue to iterate and improve, necessitate improvements and compounds. I mean, yeah, Michael Hingson  30:07 and that's, of course, the real key, speed and efficiency have a lot to do with it. I don't know. I remember having being a ham radio operator. I remember some of the early radios that I worked with. It was before, as ham operators would tell you, they went dark and went from tubes to transistors. So I remember vacuum tubes. My father was a TV repairman in Chicago before we moved out to California when I was five. And of course, then the biggest thing you ever replaced in a TV was a tube, although you did resistors and other things as well. But now, of course, it's a totally different animal. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Dennis Szymanski  30:50 I mean, the the vacuum tubes are exactly replaced with transistors. You replace with LEDs and all the different different things that modern semiconductors have enabled. Michael Hingson  31:00 They take a whole lot less power and are a lot a lot cooler in in the sense of, Well, I guess in cool in all ways. I had one I had one ham radio. It was a Polycom, and I forget the model number, but it ran extremely hot. We finally put a fan on one end of it to pull air through it. But without the fan, I could actually thaw and heat tater tots on it. It was so hot. Dennis Szymanski  31:29 Wow, you, you, you had a two in one. There you had, I did, and the ham radio Michael Hingson  31:35 all at the same time. It was great. But, yeah, I understand, and tubes are were replaced, and rightly so, by transistors. But a tube is a great way to teach the whole theory of how it all works and give you a way to see it in a very visual way that you're not going to see with transistors very well. Dennis Szymanski  31:57 That's true, and something that I was actually just kind of reappreciating Today was the history of it all, and how it's so important to realize that science and history are obviously inextricably linked from the progression standpoint, And then from what you said, it's it's so easy to to forget fundamentals and kind of get lost in the sauce, if you will. But I fully agree with what you say, that sometimes the quote, unquote old technology is actually just as good, if not better, a way to teach the fundamentals of the new technology, yeah, because so often they just build off of one another, right? Michael Hingson  32:49 The reality is that the process hasn't changed in terms of what they do. It's just that the product itself has changed, and it's become a lot more efficient and so on. But still, you're, you're moving electrons and and controlling them with positive and negative charges through the whole transistor process, just like you used to do with tubes, exactly, exactly. That's what makes it so, so interesting. And as you said, we take it way too much for granted. But I think that overall, it's it's great to have the old technology and the perspective to learn from, which is extremely important to do well. So what did you get your PhD in? Dennis Szymanski  33:40 So my PhD is in material science. Okay, that's what it is. My dissertation was on Super junction devices, a novel way to utilize gallium nitride in that particular device structure, super junction. So I again PhD, high level material science, compound semiconductors. And I focused on one particular material system, gallium nitride. And the goal was to learn about the material itself, make the material better and more suitable to be utilized in this type of transistor architecture that's called a super junction. Michael Hingson  34:32 So have we yet discovered a way to have any kind of superconductor operate at room temperature? Dennis Szymanski  34:39 Well, I didn't discover that there's been I mean, I keep up to date as best I can on other areas of the science world, and I know that we're doing really cool research that was previously thought to be impossible, right? Like most cutting edge scientific research.

What if the solution to plastic pollution could simply disappear? In this conversation, I sit down with Johnathan Jakubowski, CEO and founder of Smart Solve, to explore how biodegradable, water-soluble packaging is changing the future of sustainability and business. John shares his journey from early life lessons and a failed startup to building an innovative company focused on solving microplastic pollution. You will hear how purpose-driven leadership, core values, and faith shaped his path, along with practical insights on entrepreneurship, market adoption, and innovation. I believe you will find this discussion both inspiring and useful as you think about leadership, environmental impact, and what it truly takes to build something that matters. Highlights: 00:01:27 – Learn how early life values and family shaped a foundation for leadership and purpose 00:10:26 – Discover how technology and screen use are impacting focus, mental health, and development 00:17:59 – Understand how business failure can redirect you toward a more successful path 00:22:14 – Learn how biodegradable, water soluble packaging works and where it is used 00:27:04 – Discover why microplastics are driving a major shift in global innovation 00:52:49 – Learn how leadership is built through influence, culture, and consistent core values Bottom of Form About the Guest: Jonathan Jakubowski is an entrepreneur, author, inventor, and public policy advocate whose work spans the private, public, and nonprofit sectors. He is the Co-Founder and CEO of SmartSolve, a company he built around a simple but powerful conviction: that the packaging industry could be reimagined from the ground up. Under his leadership, SmartSolve has developed the world's first patented 100% bio-based, plastic-free, dissolvable food packaging — a genuine breakthrough in the global effort to eliminate packaging waste. SmartSolve's technology represents years of research, invention, and commercial development aimed at solving one of the most persistent environmental and industrial challenges of our time. Jonathan leads the company with a focus on proving that sustainability and profitability are not opposites — that the most innovative solutions can also be the most responsible ones. His work has positioned SmartSolve as a pioneering force in the zero-waste packaging space, drawing national and international attention. Beyond his entrepreneurial work, Jonathan is a published author whose book Bellwether Blues: A Conservative Awakening of the Millennial Soul has received widespread recognition and national media coverage. The book explores the political and cultural landscape facing a generation, and reflects Jonathan's deep engagement with public policy and civic life — shaped in part by his Master's in Public Policy from Georgetown University and his undergraduate years at Bowling Green State University, where he played collegiate football. Jonathan's commitment to service extends across sectors. He is the founder of Champions in Action, a nonprofit dedicated to empowering underprivileged youth in Guatemala, and serves as Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Forge Leadership Network, an organization devoted to developing principled leaders. His career reflects a consistent thread: identifying problems that others have accepted as inevitable, and building solutions that prove otherwise. Jonathan lives in Northwest Ohio with his wife Missy and their four children. Whether in the boardroom, on the page, or in the community, he is driven by the belief that leadership means leaving things better than you found them. Ways to connect with Jonathan: 🌐 Website: www.smartsolve.com 𝕏 X (Twitter): @JonJakubowski 💼 LinkedIn: Jonathan Jakubowski 📚 Book on Amazon: Bellwether Blues: A Conservative Awakening of the Millennial Soul amazon.com — ISBN 9781733428026 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hello to all of you, wherever you happen to be on this afternoon. It is afternoon for all of us here, for me and my guest, John Jakubowski, did I pronounce that right? John Jakubowski  01:10 Nice job. Michael. Michael Hingson  01:11 I try. I try. Good Irish name Jakubowski, yeah. Anyway, we're polished John Jakubowski  01:16 and Irish, but I do have some Irish blood, Michael Hingson  01:19 probably somewhere. But we're going to have a fun conversation. John is the CEO and founder of a company, and we're going to talk about entrepreneur stuff, and I think a variety of of different kinds of things. So let me just start as I love to John, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. John Jakubowski  01:38 Thank you, Michael. Love the name of the guest and honored to be on the show. Michael Hingson  01:42 John is our second person from his company, smart solve. We had another person on Dana pringert A while ago, and now we have John, and we're glad to have you. I'd love to start one of the things that I like to do on podcast is to really give our listeners and viewers, because we are on YouTube as well, an opportunity to really get to know whoever is our guest. So I love to start by asking people to tell us about their early life. So tell us, kind of about the early John, growing up and all that. John Jakubowski  02:14 Yeah, that's a wonderful question, and I would just say for the audience, before you listen to my interview, you you should probably check out Dana's. Think hers is probably going to be far more interesting and adventurous. I was just telling Michael how impressed I am with her as a leader on our team. I appreciate that question, Michael. And I think going back to my younger life, I grew up in Toledo, Ohio and a middle class family, middle, lower middle class family, depending on how you classify it. And the thing that I tell people all over the world, and I've had the incredible privilege of traveling to Latin America, Asia, Africa, many, many countries, and obviously all across our nation, I have the privilege of telling them that I hit the jackpot. I hit the jackpot because I had parents who loved me, who protected me, and who taught me the Bible, and you could not have established a better foundation for a life that could be lived in a way that was bent towards the good, beautiful and true. And growing up in Toledo, Ohio had its fair share of challenges. It wasn't like we were made of money and had a ton of the word, I think today, is privileges, but we were blessed in that way, and that laid a wonderful foundation for me to eventually become a missionary in Guatemala, which would lead to the foundation of an organization, a nonprofit that exists today called champions in action, has reached up to 4000 children through soccer Ministry, connecting them with life's transforming mentors, so that Guatemala ministry came from that missionary experience, which also led me to become a college football player. I played for Bowling Green State University. I was an outside linebacker, and Urban Meyer was my coach my first year, and then Greg Brandon the last four. And then that led to eventually graduate school in Washington, DC, where I studied public policy at Georgetown, and that brought me all the way back to Bowling Green, Ohio. I'd met my wife in undergraduate school, and we fell in love, and then, when we got married, moved to DC and then came back home to launch this really interesting international initiative, which took me to all these places I mentioned earlier, called a firm global development and that five year business startup ended up failing. We were unable to achieve profitability, and then that led to the foundation of smart solve, which I'm sure we'll get into Michael Hingson  04:32 today well, and if I may also, I'd have just looked it up. Dana pragerts show was on January, 20 of this year. So episode number 415 so you can go find Dana, but now you're listening to us. So listen to this one, then go back and listen to Dana. But either way, they're both fun. Well, that's that's really pretty exciting. You've certainly moved around and and. Travel to a variety of places and and in colleges. You've you've done things. You started out at Bowling Green, but you ended up at Georgetown. What was it like being in DC? John Jakubowski  05:09 Oh, it's one of my favorite cities, which is not a popular thing necessarily to say, with the swamp and everything. I really had an awesome experience being among people who were driven, you know, a like a, type leaders, type a, people who had a mission in mind. We connected with an amazing church there. And I love competition, so I love the thrills of the political battles. Obviously, there's, there's sometimes you can lament those being in it too long, but I really enjoyed that, and I love history, so being able to go to the various museums and to see landmarks and the sites across that city that marked the entirety of the history of our nation, it's a place that I enjoy going. The traffic was horrendous, I will say that. So I don't miss that at all. And I think we still have, I mean, I know we still have a number of really close friends that live there. Michael Hingson  06:07 I have been to DC a number of times, primarily with a group from the National Federation of the Blind. We would go back and we would meet with legislators and talk about relevant issues that we were concerned about, that we wanted Congress to deal with dealing with civil rights and a variety of things like that. And it is just awe inspiring and totally awesome to be at the capitol to to work and interact with all these people. When we met, we met a number. I met Ted Kennedy, and actually, back in 1979 I think it was met Tip O'Neill and and a variety of people, and it's fun to to be there. I think now there are probably some exceptional challenges, but nevertheless, it's still the city that it is. And I know about the traffic back in 19 I think also it was in 77 I was in DC. We were at the DuPont Circle and office building, and it was the day before Thanksgiving, and I was going to go stay the weekend with some friends in Baltimore. See, I know how to pronounce that. And so my our friend came down to pick me up. We left Dupont Circle at four in the afternoon, and it took almost three hours just to get to the beltway to go up north to ball to Baltimore. It was just crazy. Yeah, and you think, and they say, La, traffic is crazy. I don't know. I'm think that that was pretty nutty back there. John Jakubowski  07:40 Yeah, that's it's can be rough. Yeah, it Michael Hingson  07:43 can be, but it still is. Is a great city. In the last year, I went to an event sponsored by the American Veterans Center, and I was asked to come back and talk about September 11 and so on. And that's really the first time I took some, some time to go visit some of the museums and memorials. We went to the Lincoln Memorial. We went to a number of places. Actually did a three hour guided tour, which was a lot of fun, and it's the first time I had a chance to do that. John Jakubowski  08:12 Oh, no kidding. Oh, that's probably the favorite thing. Every time I'm in DC, I do some sort of a running tour at minimum to hit some of those core monuments. I think two of the greatest speeches ever written are in the Lincoln Memorial, the Gettysburg Address and his second inaugural, Michael Hingson  08:27 yeah, by any standard. And it's just really cool though that we had a chance to do it, because usually when I'm back there, we're working the whole time, so just didn't have the opportunity. But this time, we took it and did a night tour, and it was a lot of fun. John Jakubowski  08:42 Good for you. Absolutely can't recommend it highly enough to those who are listening. Michael Hingson  08:47 Yeah, if you get a chance go back to DC, it is absolutely worth going back and seeing history and seeing all the things that have happened puts a lot of things in perspective, certainly. So you, you went off to Georgetown, and were there, and then you went back to Bowling Green. Is that what you said? John Jakubowski  09:07 That's right, yeah, move back to Northwest Ohio Bowling Green. It's a city probably not many of your listeners who aren't from Ohio would think of Bowling Green. Michael Hingson  09:17 Yeah, I know what you're saying well, and so you, you, you have, what? Four children. John Jakubowski  09:24 Yes, four kids, and various ages. Now in the teenage phase our our youngest is eight years old, so we're still at that young, very energetic phase of a young boy. I have three boys and a girl, and they're the delight of of our lives, and part of the the greatest calling and assignment that I've been that have received from the Lord is taking care of Michael Hingson  09:44 them well, once they all get to be like over 21 you can have that big talk with them about how they have to support their father and mother in the manner to which they want to become accustomed, right? John Jakubowski  09:55 Well, we're talking about that now. Ephesians six one says, Honor your father and mother. Wish. Yes, commander of promise that it may be well with you, that you will live long on the earth so they get that foundation laid, which I heard from my parents. And yeah, I think there's, it's going to be a fun journey already seeing the way that they're growing in their own independence and knowledge, and some pretty amazing kids who have a have an understanding of what it looks like to live a life that's full of goodness, beauty and truth, which is laid on the foundation of Scripture. So we're very blessed by Michael Hingson  10:26 our kids given all the things with social media and all the demand nowadays for immediate gratification, for things. Do you think it's harder to be a kid today than it was, say, when you were growing up or earlier? John Jakubowski  10:40 Definitively, I do think screens have really affected the nature within which a child engages the world. I guess I could qualify that by saying that, in every sense, is it more difficult to be a child? I do think there are unique challenges to generations. And I'm speaking from a 21st Century perspective here, because we go back to, you know, 1000 years we're talking about an entirely different people group, where having access to food would be a difficulty, or even in different places throughout the world, where there's challenges like that. So speaking, just from the vantage point of a child in Northwest Ohio growing up today, versus my generation 10 to 20 years ago, cell phone and screen usage, as demonstrated by many authors, has really had a negative impact on childhood considerations of mental health when it comes to depression, anxiety, body shaming issues especially pronounced among females, but not limited to females. I think that that temptation looms large, and as a parent, we have to parent with significant intentionality to prevent them from finding themselves trapped in those things, those devices that can cause them significant harm. And it's Michael Hingson  11:53 gotta be really tough to be a parent today, because you worry about the kids, you worry about all the things that go on and all the predators and so on out there, but at the same time, you can't just totally stifle or shelter a child either. They they've got to be able to stretch and grow. It's got to be a challenge. John Jakubowski  12:09 Well, that I would recommend to those who are interested in this topic is the anxious generation, by Jonathan height, written in early 2024 if I'm not mistaken, maybe it's 2025 but it's a recent, fairly recent book, and he used a lot of data to demonstrate the harms of social media, the harms of screen usage. And he said most parents operate like flyover parents when it comes to the physical side, not flyover, but hovering. Parents when it comes to physical dangers. So more now than ever, they'll prevent kids from going on their bikes out in the afternoon because of physical scares of potential abusers or whatnot that may be out there, but they act entirely detached from their screen and cell phone usage. And he actually argued the reverse. He said, It's first of all, there's many communities in which children grow up are pretty safe and a child needs to experience the physical dangers associated with growing and developing and flying and spreading their wings. But in the in the realm of technology, there needs to be significant focus on limiting the amount of exposure and usage, because it truly prevents the full development of the brain at an early age. It's far better to wait until they're older in their later teen years to expose them to that. So he he talked about the inverse of what many parents think. To your point, I think it's there's challenges parents think of all the dangers that are out there, and we become very protective on the physical side, but we're just take our foot off the brake and put it on the gas entirely for children using Michael Hingson  13:34 tech, yeah, and it doesn't help. I remember a device that isn't really, I guess, around much anymore the Blackberry. We don't have blackberries now, do we? I remember the first time Research In Motion had a problem one night, somewhere around midnight, suddenly, every BlackBerry went silent because they had some sort of a server issue or whatever, and people committed suicide, they just started going crazy. They couldn't access their their blackberries or anything. And you know, I I can sit here and say, if I don't use my phone for a day, it wouldn't be the end of the world, although I also view it as more of a tool. I don't do much entertainment on it and but I do do like the internet. I get a lot from the internet, but I also know that I can disconnect from it, and I and I really like the fact that I can disconnect and just take time to think and move away from that stuff. And I think it is really a lot harder for people today to do. John Jakubowski  14:40 I think the analogy I heard that really stuck out to me. I can't remember the author. He was a leader in the homeschool movement, and he said, If you measure the power of a cell phone today, it would be equivalent to having 10,000 servants 500 years ago. So if you don't know how to administer 10,000 servants, you're going. Become a slave to those servants. So it's one of the one way or the other, someone's going to be administrating your life. Either you're going to administrate the power of that tool or it's going to administrate you. And we want to make sure that we have sovereignty over these tremendous tools that are at our disposal, because there's a lot riding on it, and certainly our focus is one of the areas that with distractions abounding, it dilutes our focus, preventing us from having the greatest impact in the most important assignments God's called us to. Michael Hingson  15:27 Yeah, I I hear what you're saying. I had never heard it expressed quite that way, but 10,000 servants makes a lot of sense, that they're very they're very popular and and the computers in the cell phones are very powerful. So there's, there's a lot there to consider, but we still have to be the ultimate governors over it, and we really need to do more to do that. Well, once you left Georgetown, what did you start doing with your life? John Jakubowski  15:54 Well, that's when I moved back to Bowling Green in Northwest Ohio, and my wife and I, being originally from Northwest Ohio, it made sense for us to raise our family there. And by the way, I think that was a great decision. Raising children in DC has its unique challenges, but you just, you just can't replace family either. So being around family and then having a community that was a much more foundational for us and for our children has been a tremendous win for us, and I think I thought about that a lot during covid, we moved back to Northwest Ohio in 2010 after I graduated, and then during covid, really sensed and appreciated freedom that we had to raise our children here. So that said, we moved here, started this five year business that could not find profitability. We did our best to sell innovative technologies that would would bring benefit to the world, things like energy, solar lighting for solar energy inside of the home, things like energy efficient cook stoves, water filtration systems, and we sold them in 17 different countries. The founder of that business, his name is Al caperna. He's a spiritual mentor and leader, and is also now the co founder of smart solve, the business that I run and operate today. Al invited me back to Bowling Green to run this business for him, and it was one of the most challenging segments of my life, because I'm very competitive, as I noted earlier, and I measure things very much from a win loss column. And because that business failed, we were unable to make it profitable. I felt like that was a a major loss, but one of the beautiful things in the stories of redemption, my mom, who passed away last September, had a life verse that comes from Romans 828, which says, All things work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose. So even that failure turned into a destiny, a destination. I couldn't have predicted a destiny that would allow me to now start a different company, and this company has become much more prosperous and successful, and it wouldn't have happened if I would have had success in those first five years. So it was, it was an incredible story that turned to good, and we're still here in the bowling green area now, 16 years later, after moving back home in May of 2010 Michael Hingson  18:06 so do you think that if you were to go back to that business today with what you know, would you be able to make it more successful than it was? Or was it, was it really mistakes and a lack of knowledge at the time? Or was it just that it wasn't what was going John Jakubowski  18:23 to work? Yeah, that's a really insightful question. If I had the experience I have now from running a profitable business, I likely wouldn't have started that business up. Was it's incredibly difficult to sell through a distribution model in markets that are extremely price sensitive, and then now, knowing what I know exists in those locations to bring what they call last mile products, taking technologies to the last mile. The cost was not affordable, and then the traps, the corruption, the challenges of supply chain issues, the mentality of some of the business leaders in these locations made it significantly challenging for a business like that to have scaled so the answer is, I would have, would have started something different than Michael Hingson  19:04 that, right? Well, so you, but you did that, and what led you to come up with this idea for smart salt? So as we were, it's intriguing all the way around, and I'm glad we're going to talk about that. John Jakubowski  19:19 Well, thank thank you for that. And I agree it's quite intriguing, and it began as a result of the failure of a firm global development, as we began to plan for shutting that business down. I mentioned al caperna, who is the co founder of smart solve, who had started up a firm global development. Al is a I call him a serial entrepreneur. He likes starting things up anywhere and everywhere, but he's a wonderful man who also owns very profitable businesses, and one of his businesses reached out to him, asking for permission, since they knew that I was beginning to phase out of the affirm global days, asking for permission to interview me and to have me begin considering. Doing market research for a technology that they were looking at called water soluble board stock. So Al said, makes perfect sense. The timing's right, he asked me. I said, Yeah, let's, let's give it a try. I'm willing to dive in here, roll my sleeves up, and start writing some market research. And during that research phase, I discovered that there was this technology of water soluble paper, not just the board stock is kind of a different iteration of that, but the foundation of water soluble paper that had tremendous potential, way back in even 2015 to be an answer to the packaging problems that were plaguing the world at that point, I had done some basic Google research. No longer do I even use Google. I'm using mostly quad or one of the other AI tools. But back then, it was Google, and I did a ton of secondary research to find out that there were all sorts of organizations, businesses and even governments, that were beginning to take steps into reducing the amount of plastic pollution. Now, plastics been around for 50 or so years, but they were starting to wake up to the recognition that the accumulation of plastics is it looks like a growth, like a hockey stick. So the hockey stick growth means that the accumulation of it is just going to grow at an increasing amount and a compounding amount. And there aren't systems around the world that can capture all of these plastics there, and leading to significant leakage, that if it weren't stopped, there would be more plastic in the ocean than fish as measured by weight by the year 2050, and that was an Ellen MacArthur Foundation statistic. So that data led me to see there's a major movement in packaging, and this really unique and innovative raw material, of water soluble paper has a has a tremendous opportunity to be a solution in the midst of this. So I recommended back to Al and his leaders. I don't think that you should just add a product line to one of your existing companies. I think this innovation has enough potential to be its own company, an entire foundation of water soluble paper with coatings configurations and print, using that and leveraging that to be able to drive it into new market segments. Thankfully, they liked my suggestion, and said, write a business plan, and we would like for you to lead this business. So I led that business. Started it within another set of companies, and in 2016 we launched smart solve. Michael Hingson  22:20 So basically, as I understand it, smart solve is a company that creates packaging, and when you're done with the packaging, you can make it wet and it dissolves. John Jakubowski  22:34 That's right, that it's at its core, and it's definition, yeah. And it depends upon its and it depends upon how it's being used. In some cases, it's used as a pod that carries flower seed that you just put into the plant. In a way it goes. In other cases, it's used as a imagine a tide pod in a dishwasher, so you put it into the dishwasher, and then the dish starts the wash starts to move, and that water dissolves the packaging away and releases the detergent. In other cases, it's used with blood coagulant powders, so you drop it into the mess and put water in, and away goes the material, and the coagulant functions anywhere where there's a need for a temporary barrier is also sustainable and eliminates the concerns of plastics. That's the vision and what smart saw actually doing. Michael Hingson  23:20 So when it dissolves, what does it dissolve to? If that makes sense. I mean, when it dissolves, does it does it just totally disappear? Or why is it not a problem? Once it dissolves, John Jakubowski  23:36 smart solve. Paper is made of three basic ingredients. It's made of wood pulp, fiber that is sourced from FSC certified forests, which means they're managed for us. So every time a tree is cut down to be used for paper, another tree is planted. So it's made of wood pulp, it's the majority of its composition, and then a little bit of what's called carboxyl methyl cellulose. That's an ingredient. It's grass, generally regarded as safe, used in things like chewing gum. And then finally, a little bit of sodium, that is the base ingredient. And then as we add layers coatings that turn it into packaging or labels or other configurations, then those ingredients, which vary, are also aligned with our initiative to ensure that our technology is indeed zero waste. It's sustainable. It's biodegradable, as measured through independent analyzes such as OECD, 301, b, that is going to also be compostable, recyclable. So we spend a lot of money and a lot of time certifying our innovations to make sure that the claims that we make can be carried forward by our customers, so that we're not engaged in greenwashing when we deliver something to a customer, we want to make sure that they're able to make that claim. Michael Hingson  24:47 So smart solve isn't going to be used to make soda straws in the near future, John Jakubowski  24:53 I don't think so. Michael Hingson  24:56 What happened to your straw? Oh, it just dissolved. John Jakubowski  24:58 Yeah, yeah. I. Think you that's a use case, that that would be a good idea for the kinds of materials Michael Hingson  25:05 we make. But on the other hand, none of the concept. I was in Minnesota two weeks ago, and I was really pleased at the hotel where we stayed. It was an Embassy Suites, and the straws were paper. They weren't plastic, and I just still don't see nearly enough of that. John Jakubowski  25:24 Yeah, so I think there's a lot of innovation happening in the packaging space, and it's driven largely by these very concerning trends of micro plastic pollution. Every day you're going to see more and more articles and research demonstrating an increase of the incidences of micro plastic pollution, which is pretty much ubiquitous now in our lives, because almost everything that we do and we're involved in has the presence of plastic. Yeah, the greatest concerns are now the the effects that are happening to human health, human endocrine systems, digestive systems, reproductive systems, respiratory systems, and particularly among populations that live on the coasts because they're eating fish that have consumed micro plastics, right? That theme and that concern is driving innovation among packaging companies all around the world. Smart solves. Innovation will not solve all of those problems. We know that we have a core value of humility, but the niche where we do have potential solutions, it's a train that companies are starting to jump, to jump on, because they see the unique value proposition and benefits in a way that wows customers, for them to see that packaging disappear on top of the fact that they know that it's doesn't have micro plastics and isn't going to cause these lingering issues. It's a huge bonus that customers are embracing, Michael Hingson  26:39 which is clearly a cool thing by any standard. What makes smart solve unique in terms of packaging and the kind of materials that you John Jakubowski  26:48 make, smart solve is unique beyond just its material makeup. We're a company that was birthed in a vision as I wrote that business plan, one of the prayers that I made is as a steward of the earth that God has granted to me. What's my responsibility when I think of a Genesis mandate to Adam, what do I need to do as a human being to ensure that I'm taking care of the resources God has given to me? So when we dedicated the business, we laid it on a foundation of a verse from Psalm one, Psalms 127, one, which says, Unless the Lord builds the house, they labor in vain those who build it. We wanted to dedicate this company to being a company that was more than just a profit generating entity. Yes, we want sustainable profitability so that we can continue to grow and build employees and make an impact globally. And we wanted to ensure that the impacts we were making were generative. We're focused on, and you've heard me say this now several times, focused on advancing the good, beautiful and true, whether that was through the redemption of the amount of hours that an employee would work under our umbrella, and the average employee works around 90,000 hours in their lifetime. If you study Department of Labor Statistics, that is a lot of time to spend just making a paycheck. We wanted our company to be about more than just making a paycheck. We wanted to turn it into a vehicle through which employees could find their purpose. So we wanted employees to benefit from that. We wanted to see God glorified through the technologies we delivered. We wanted to see jobs created. We wanted to see companies that were leveraging our technology impacting the environment and in tremendously positive way, and now smart solve innovation with a number of world firsts, has accomplished some of those aims in a small scale, and we're working to bring those to big scale. I'll give you two examples. The first example is pure no zero. Pure no zero is the world's first 100% bio based flushable, printable substrate that is totally plastic free. So that innovation, which can be used for food packaging, is was just released in January. It's a patented innovation, and we're starting to see applications in laundry and dish in agriculture. Our very first customer was using dry coffee, instant coffee, to make this packaging a part of that process and a part of that story pure No. Zero is one such example of why smart solve is unique. A second example is the example of a technology called Fire drop. It's a world's first fire resistant class, a fire resistant, water soluble, biodegradable substrate that can be used in places like data centers. Those two innovations were truly birthed out of our core value of innovation. We have six core values, character drive innovation, joy, humility and growth. Each of them have a scripture verse that undergirds them, that anchors them. We wanted to make sure that our core values weren't simply words on a wall. We want them to be understood and habituated by the team members that are a part of our company. And the core value innovation scripture. Verse comes from Jeremiah 33 three, which says, Call to me and I will show you the great and unsearchable things you do not yet know. So through that mystery, we've prayed, and through that process, we've had some pretty incredible. Breakthroughs that turned into these unique innovations. Michael Hingson  30:03 Well, that's pretty cool, and they're all based on the same smart sell principle, I gather, right? John Jakubowski  30:14 That's the foundation. That's right, yeah. Michael Hingson  30:16 So the different products that you're you're creating, in one sense, are using the basic smart solve biodegradable, 100% soluble product, which is pretty exciting and clearly a big deal. Are you seeing that industry is really beginning to accept it? Are there still a lot of skeptics in the packaging and marketing world? Are you making a lot of progress. John Jakubowski  30:41 Well, I was at a conference in Florida where we were receiving a pretty significant award. We received the gold award from the flexible packaging Association. And there was a comment that was made at that conference that really struck me, and it was a statement to the effect of plastics in the plastics industry have lost the war for the consumer's heart. There are so many companies that are invested with equipment, billions of dollars employment. And by the way, a number of these innovations have been tremendous good for the world. I mean, think about the mass starvation that occurred in the Straits of Africa, until you had packaging that could create a shelf life long enough to get it through the supply chain. So I'm not going, even though I benefit significantly from the elimination of plastic and companies converting to adopt technologies like ours, I'll also be the first to say that there was a reason why this innovation was created. It's just gone so far over the pale that we need to rethink the innovation set create new technologies like the one that smart solve has and deliver solutions that allow customers to show companies Hey. I recognize this issue. I'm willing to pay a premium. A lot of times we're in conversations with traditionally capitalist mindset, just wanting to wanting to make $1 and the focus of the buyers is, how do I reduce the cost of my packaging? Our everyday battle is to convince those buyers, their marketing teams, their sales teams, to not purchase on the basis of the cost down, but to purchase on the basis of the value up. The customers will pay a premium. Now it's disputed as to how much of a premium, and there are certain markets where there's just so much price sensitivity, it's not going to work. But there are other markets through demonstrable effects, such as unit dose packaging, the mono dose market, like Tide Pods, demonstrates customers willingness to pay a premium when you can make their lives more convenient by measuring out and pre portioning what they're going to use. Add to that the multiplier of it being a plastic free technology. Now people get really excited. So yes, we are beginning to see adoption. It doesn't mean that we're not facing the natural headwinds of it being a very expensive technology. Michael Hingson  32:46 How much more expensive is it than more traditional plastic type technologies that are similar? It varies John Jakubowski  32:53 depending upon the kind of technology we're replacing. If it's replacing a heavily structured, laminated, high barrier technology, and there are some companies that use that and have no need to. They really don't need that level of barrier. They've over engineered those solutions. In those cases, our material is pretty close to on par or even a little less expensive. But in most cases, when we're dealing with technologies like a salt packet, for example, that are using the lowest possible raw material cost, our premium can be as much as 5x higher than the cost of that innovation. Michael Hingson  33:27 On the other hand, and I know it's what you talk about, the whole issue of helping to save the planet and doing all the things that that you do, that that value up has to mean something. Are you finding people generally accepting that, or is it still pretty much a huge battle? Oh no, we John Jakubowski  33:50 definitely are. We're seeing adoption. We're seeing increase. The real sweet spot for us is amongst what we'll call SMEs, small to medium sized enterprises, let's just say, 10 to 100 million dollar companies who are ready to be first movers. That's one of the advantages of being a small company, is you can move quickly those companies that recognize the opportunity to differentiate their brand from the more, larger established brands, and to make packaging an actual part of their solution, not just the product on the inside, but how they use packaging. These companies are coming to the table in droves, and every day we're in conversations with more and more entities issuing purchase orders to leverage the uniqueness and novelty of this innovation set. So it's very encouraging. Yes, I see an upward spike. I think it's here to stay, and it's only going to ever grow because the issue of micro plastic and now plastic pollution is also only ever going to grow. Michael Hingson  34:39 Yeah, now I don't use tie pods, but I use the pods from Costco, but obviously they dissolve as well, but they have a liquid in them. Why is it they don't dissolve because of the liquid? John Jakubowski  34:54 Yeah, they created a formulation that creates a specific barrier for the kind of jet. Gel that's inside of that. So the engineering makeup of what's inside of it is able to have an effect that creates positive containment. If that gel were more water based and there weren't a formula that created that barrier, then it it would absolutely dissolve. So yeah, you're very observant. And by the way, the material that holds that is similar to what's on a tide pod is called polyvinyl alcohol, PV, O, H, or polyvinyl acetate PVA. Not all polyvinyl alcohol is the same. Some polyvinyl alcohol is going to be more of a source of micro and nano plastics long term. Some of it is highly biodegradable, so it depends upon how it's made, and that's why we say not all PVA or pboh is the same. Our technology and companies are taking this on more and more replaces the concerns around having a plastics derived covering that dissolves and replacing it with a bio based derivative that has the same functionality. Michael Hingson  35:58 So how do you convince people that going green and doing what you do really makes sense? What? What is it that suddenly creates that aha moment for them that gets them to understand this really does make more sense in the long run, and it'll be better for us. John Jakubowski  36:14 We got to be really good at telling the story how plastic pollution is a cause for concern that's bigger than we maybe understand immediately. And there's so many opportunities that we have in life to change innovation sets with small cost incremental cost increases. Packaging is usually a very small portion of the overall whole technology that's being sold. And if we can get companies through the story of other entities having success, who are able to charge more, perhaps for the very packaging that they're delivering that makes that product more valuable in the eyes of the customer. That's one of the aims, is being a really good storyteller to those businesses to help them see this actually will create a value add for you and allow you to make a positive impact on the environment that surrounds us, being good stewards of that which God has given us, the longer battle, we're just a small entity today, growing but small is how do we help consumers to understand more of the driving concerns around how plastic pollution is negatively affecting our health, and that story now is being told by many, many entities and many movies and videos. And more and more we're reading articles about this being an issue. One that Michael Hingson  37:24 stands out most to me is I saw a 60 Minutes report several years ago on all the plastics in the ocean and what they're trying to do to recover it and so on. But it's clearly kind of a losing battle, because there's so much more, and it's increasing every day. John Jakubowski  37:43 Every square mile of the ocean surface is plastic, and if we continue with the current rates of the Sustainable plastic pollution reduction strategies, the Delta reduction of the increase is just a fraction of what has to happen for us to really mitigate this issue from exacerbating itself in a way that creates further human harms, harms to human health and harms to the ecological systems that surround us. I'll give you a quick example in Lake Erie in my backyard. One of the beautiful benefits of living in Northwest Ohio is being around the Great Lakes, which are 20% of the world's fresh water. So we have a wonderful fresh water source behind us, and we have pretty good collection systems relative to the rest of the world, whether that's just through our landfill waste management systems or through recycling systems. And yet, over the course of the last 10 years, research has demonstrated at universities that micro, micro plastic pollution increased by 10x over a decade. Where's all this plastic coming from? So there's a large study that's going into what the sources are, and one of the primary sources is what's called pre production pellets that come over on barges across the Saint Lawrence Seaway to some of the places where these factories exist, to drop them off, and they'll fall into the Great Lakes and, well, there's not really anything you can do about it. They're hard to see. They're invisible, and they're going to be there, going to be there for decades, and they just continue to grow and increase. So even in the places where we feel most safe, it feels as if the invading presence of increased plastic pollution is increasing at a consolidated rate. Michael Hingson  39:21 Are we going to be able, at some point to really stop it? John Jakubowski  39:25 I'm always an optimist. Yeah, I always believe, and I've seen, throughout the whole of human history, innovations that have changed the world, a lot of them inspired by people of prayer. We're people of prayer. We hope to be a part of the solution to this long term issue. And I'll give you a story that that anchors me in seeing that there is hope in the early 1900s in cities like Chicago, London, New York, the amount of horses that were walking on the roads of these streets increased by multiple factors to the point where there were like 50,000 horses walking on the roads of New York in a single day. Well, horses produced. A lot of manure. And on any average day in New York, you would have between three to 5 million tons of manure, or No, three to 5 million pounds of manure produced, they started running into issues over time where they didn't know where to put it. So they would put it literally in blocks that could go as high as three stories of just piled manure. And as you can imagine, it began to create its own ecological crisis, typhoid, cholera, the stench was horrible. The situation in which the people lived was very difficult. So finally, they started to make take measures of trying to move people out of these neighborhoods where the manure was being piled up. And it became such an issue, it was almost as if the population of these cities could not be sustained. That all changed in 1907 with an innovation. The innovation was the Model T car. As soon as that car hit the road and started to replace the horses, guess what happened to the manure? You started to see an immediate dissipation. I use that story because in the smart solve context, we believe that we have one of the solutions that can help us immediately take on the issue of plastic pollution, to curb that hockey stick growth in a way that goes in the other direction. Michael Hingson  41:07 But you have to get the the message out and get more and more people to understand the value of doing it, which is, I'm sure, part of the challenge. You're right. John Jakubowski  41:16 And the young lady you interviewed, Dana, that's what she wakes up thinking about every day when she comes into work, and we're growing that team to to tell that story more and more Michael Hingson  41:26 time for a 60 Minutes report about smart solve. John Jakubowski  41:29 Hey, I agree with that, Michael, let's go. We're ready for it. Michael Hingson  41:33 Well, we've got to, I mean, I, I have been a fan of getting rid of plastic and so on for quite a while, which is why the 60 Minutes report really was attractive to me. They they've developed some pretty creative ways of getting a lot of the plastic, but still, it's a losing battle, because I think it's being produced a lot more quickly than it's being recovered so and again, where do you where do you take it when you recover it anyway, it's, it isn't something you can just dissolve. So there's an adventure to try to come up with a way to just come dissolve all the plastic. But that's another story, I assume, John Jakubowski  42:11 and that's another innovation set that I believe others are working on. And I do think it's going to have to be part of the equation. It's, there's no single individual or entity will be able to solve this. It's going to take a whole lot of entrepreneurship and innovation, sets of ideas that hopefully can reshape the way that this current challenge is hitting us. Michael Hingson  42:32 Yeah, it's it's not going to happen right away. So what was it like when you started to develop the product, you decided to patent it, and so on. That must have been kind of an interesting bureaucratic process to go through. John Jakubowski  42:46 Thankfully, we live in the United States of America, if you go back to Article One section eight, you can see at the earliest foundation of our Constitution, a vision of our founders to recognize that we needed to secure rights of property and rights of innovation. So to secure that for inventors was a big deal and creating a unique opportunity that allowed individuals to take those ideas and create value sufficient enough to justify the hard work that went into that and frankly, one of the reasons why America stands apart from the other nations of the world, and how we've delivered innovation year after year, decade after decade, time after time, and now, as we celebrate our 250th I look back to many of those inventors who changed the nature of our country, and I think of as early as Benjamin Franklin and his identification of electricity. And we could go on thinking about all the wonderful inventions Alexander Graham Bell and all these wonderful leaders that made our country what has became today. That foundation had to be laid to create a process that would allow entrepreneurs to flourish with property rights, with access to taxes that wouldn't be oppressive or are crushing, and that would give people are really strong incentive and companies a strong incentive to grow. Not that we're perfect. I think there are things about our country, regulatory, regulation wise, or from a vantage point of red tape, that can certainly improve, but it is one of the distinct advantages that we have. And I would say, going through the patent process, it's a long process. It's rightfully scrutinized at a significant level, there are examiners that have to look at all of the prior art created around the subject matter that you're seeking to suggest is novel, and they have to make a determination as to whether or not it's novel enough to merit the rights to become a patent. Thankfully, this technology and now another technology since have merited that status and that novelty and giving us a wonderful foundation off of which to grow this innovation set? Michael Hingson  44:46 So no, you, you got through, did you? Did you find much skepticism in the whole patent process, from the the the inspectors and all the other people? Or were they? Were they all pretty cool as you, as you were. Able to present and demonstrate why your product was so good. John Jakubowski  45:03 Yeah, the skepticism is probably not the right word I would the word I would use, I would use. The examination was heavily scrutinized, as it ought to be. Yeah, the scrutiny that was applied was was necessary to ensure that not every inventor that has an idea that's just another me too deserves the right to have a patent. So the scrutiny that was set created a minimum bar that we needed to overcome to demonstrate to the patent examiner that our innovation would indeed be novel and unique, and we were able to pass that standard. So I think the scrutiny is necessary, and it ought to be a high bar to cross, to have something patented, Michael Hingson  45:43 and I can only say that's fair. I mean, it should be a high bar, as long as it's a still a crossable bar, and you don't get opposition without real good reason for it, then that's that's a good thing. I've never patented anything, but I know people who have, and they're, they're always going to be, I think people who investigate very well, but I haven't really heard of people throwing a lot of road Well, needless roadblocks in the way of of good patents that because it's pretty clear that they're good patents and they should be done. John Jakubowski  46:21 Yeah, there's the challenge, honestly, Michael notwithstanding, this conversation, which highlights the need to have a high bar for patenting something, but to be honest with you, there are far more patents that have been patented than innovations that came alive, meaning a lot of the inventors created ideas because in our nation, it's the first to file. So you can have any idea, and as long as you have a minimum a minimum quantity of substance, you can go through the process of submitting it, and then you have to demonstrate its novelty. But it doesn't mean that you can actually bring that technology alive. And then the next step is making it commercial or commercializable, by having a justifiable value proposition that people will pay for. By the way, this is one of the greatest virtues of capitalism over socialism, and there's an ever increasing amount of youngsters, if you look at Gen Z statistics, who desire to live in an environment of socialism. And the problem with socialism is there's equality, but everyone's equally poor and impoverished and oppressed in a nation where I don't believe in capitalism fully unbounded, I think there's a lot of merit to having companies that have certain minimum quantities of regulation operating within a specific environment, and certainly an environment of integrity, but capitalism demonstrates the need of these companies to justify their existence, to demonstrate to the consumer, hey, you spent a lot of hard earned time to make the money you're about to spend in our technology. Here's why you should do it, which means that person has a vote as to whether or not every purchase is a vote as to whether or not that technology merits the time that they're investing. It's one of the most beautiful ways of being able to serve an economy, serve a nation, is to deliver a technology that justifies the value proposition and the time spent by that consumer. Michael Hingson  47:58 And you can, you can take that when that occurs. And I don't want to say, look at it with pride, but you can certainly look at it and feel honored that you were able to do it and be successful at it. And I think there, there are a lot of people that do that. I know one of the people who I got to know over the years. You may have heard of him, is a guy named Ray Kurzweil. Have you heard of ray? So Ray. Ray is an inventor and futurist. He invented this concept of the singularity, but his first machine was literally the ability to have a computer that could create an image of a printed page with whatever type styles or print styles were on the page and recognize the characters. No one had done that before, and he decided that his first purpose for that machine was to build a machine that would read print out loud for blind people. But the point is, he developed Omni font, optical character recognition. And of course, today it's basically free. You can get it on any smartphone and so on, but he's the guy that created it. And, you know, moved it forward, which was so cool. John Jakubowski  49:06 That's, it's quite a feat. And it's, it's truly a virtue to deliver innovation in a way that generates somebody's will to pay, like you said, something that we should be proud of, pleased with, delighted in. And it's a virtuous thing, not withstanding the cultural efforts to denigrate business owners and to if you look at a lot of the children's movies of the past couple of decades, usually the bad guy is some wealthy tycoon who's abusing his dollars and there's significant inequality and he's cheating the system. I think that picture that's painted represents a very small minority of the hard working business owners that exist all across our country who had to work incredibly hard to solve a problem that the people needed otherwise they wouldn't pay for it and have justified, in the minds of these customers, a reason to exist. There's no more debt. Democratic process than having to go in front of customers who have to pay with their hard earned money to say, Yeah, I believe that this is worth my time. Well, capitalism and free enterprise allows for that to happen, and Michael Hingson  50:13 I do agree that there have to be regulations. There have to be governors on on things, but you're right. The point is that people need to be able to have the freedom to create. And I think that you're you're also right that the the evil villain that we see on so many kids movies and so on is such a small amount compared to the people who are truly out there who want to solve a problem, who know that they want to solve a problem, and they work to do it for the right reasons, and as long as they don't lose perspective of that, then they're in good shape. John Jakubowski  50:49 I think there's a lot of stories that can be told about leaders that do, in fact, have that perspective, and we're just one example of a number of others. But it's not that profit is a bad thing, which I think a lot of unfortunately, Hollywood seems to make out prophets and prophets a very good thing. In fact, profit enables a sustained ability to employ and to deploy new technology. It's just that when profit becomes the ends of our lives, the Bible says that the love of money is the root of all evil. Note, it doesn't say that money is the root of all evil. It says the love of money is the root of all evil. When people begin to love money and it becomes the ends of what they do, they're going to use any means to accomplish that. So there are examples, unfortunately, of unbounded capitalism and leaders that have abused the system and turned people into cogs and numbers, as opposed to whole human souls who have an ability, an innate ability, to be a part of that greater story. So at smart saw, we we believe that you, you really find profit through purpose. We are a purpose driven company, a purpose statement that calls us to a higher standard to glorify Christ through our character and actions as we faithfully steward his creation and resources. And we believe that that purpose actually gives us an engine of drive to create profitability in a way that not only reaps rewards financially, but certainly in many other categories, like we talked about earlier. Michael Hingson  52:12 How do you define leadership and how do you deal with how you guide the whole concept of building teams and organizations, John Jakubowski  52:22 some in one word, leadership is influence. All of us have the ability to influence. So if we can influence in the right direction, you can develop a culture. A culture is comprised of people. A culture is not some amorphous thing. It's people living out specific habits. So if you can influence them in a direction such that those habits reflect the intentionality of what you've curated, the purpose of the business, then you can row in the same direction, and that culture will reflect what you set out to do. Too many people allow, with passivity, the habits of their team to be derived by those team members, not at Smart solve. At smart solve. That's why we list our core values. That's why every employee has them memorized. That's why they're anchored in Scripture. Those core values must become habits, and if they are, that shared vocabulary gives us a direction that allows influence leadership to drive us towards that ultimate purpose. If you ever Michael Hingson  53:20 read the book The Five Dysfunctions of a Team by Patrick Lencioni? John Jakubowski  53:25 No, I've listened to a couple of podcasts on it and read a summary. Michael Hingson  53:29 I think that it is such a good, easy to read book that really describes building teams and the importance of building good teams, dealing with accountability, dealing with trust and so on. And for my personal environment, I've learned a whole lot more about team building by working with eight guide dogs, as I tell people regularly, because while we tend to as a race, not be overly open to trust, dogs generally are. And the real challenge is learning to gain their trust, and they're also looking to gain your trust. And you learn so much from dogs. I think it's so important. We've got so many people who just have these dogs and their pets and oh, they're they're dumb animals and all that. Well, there's a whole lot more to dogs than that. I won't say that isn't true for cats too, but I work more with dogs and cats. I do have a cat and she trusts me. It's okay, but I think that The Five Dysfunctions of a Team is just a really good book. And as I said, it's very easy book to read. I got it years ago on Audible, but I just find that people really need to understand a lot more about teamwork, and when people truly do, they learn so much more about why trust and how to make trust so important in their lives. John Jakubowski  54:52 Well, that's a wonderful recommendation Michael Hingson  54:55 real quick. Tell me about your book, John Jakubowski  54:57 Bellwether blues. It's a. Book that I wrote in 2020 I mentioned earlier that I love competition, so I love politics, and I was involved in politics much more intentionally as a volunteer. But from 2016 through 2023 I was the chairman of a county party here in Northwest Ohio. And through that experience, I recognized that the county that I lived in, Wood County is a swing County in a swing state, and that one recognition drew me to the cause of trying to determine, how do you how do you motivate swing voters? And as a conservative Republican, I wanted to understand what are the ways that I could awaken my generation, millennials, to vote in our direction and the results. I went through seven stories of millennials who changed their votes from having voted for Obama to voting for Trump in 2016 I let them tell their stories, and then I looked at the common thread that drove them in that direction. And really it was somebody who had a persuasive argument, but was first willing to listen if you can understand the principles of your why, why you believe what you believe, but you don't communicate those in a manner that allows someone to receive what you're saying. The greatest arguments aren't going to reach the human soul, so that the subtitle is a conservative awakening of the millennial soul. You said earlier about trust. If you can earn the trust of the people that surround you, they're going to want to hear what you have to say. Yeah. So listening really well. And then the seven millennials in this story tell it so well. There were mentors who helped influence them on that journey, whether it was a parent or a teacher or a friend who listened to them and eventually persuaded them so that, in a nutshell, is what the book is about. Michael Hingson  56:39 Well. And you know, I think it's so unfortunate that we are losing so much of the art of conversation. People just won't listen or talk to each other, and there's no need for that. We all can learn and should learn from each other. So good for you. John Jakubowski  56:54 Well, thank you. It was, it was a wonderful journey, and this is a good example of a wonderful conversation. So I'm honored to have been on the show and thank you for hosting. Last real Michael Hingson  57:02 question is, what's next for smart solve? John Jakubowski  57:06 The future is very bright. We believe that we've been given a mission and a purpose that's nothing short of divine. We have a tremendous team every day gaining more members who have tremendous opportunities to make an impact in this world. We hope we can start to curb the trend of the proliferation of micro, nano plastics in the core industries that we're targeting, and that level of growth and opportunity leads us, hopefully, to be a part of the storyline of how we were once like New York, mired in manure, three tons tall, with plastics all around us now, to becoming that solution that changes the trajectory of this dilemma. Michael Hingson  57:42 That's cool. If people want to reach out and get a hold of you, how do John Jakubowski  57:47 they do it? LinkedIn is one great way. I'm much less active on X than I used to be, but I have an x handle. You can check it out, check my x handle, and then smart solve is also a wonderful way to connect with us. You can see our post center, smart solve LinkedIn channel. So I'd say LinkedIn is probably the easiest way. And what's Michael Hingson  58:04 the handle or what's what should people look for? Smart solve. Yeah, smart solve. John Jakubowski  58:09 And then my name is Jonathan jacobowski, okay. Michael Hingson  58:12 Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us today. We appreciate it. If you'd like to reach out to me, it's really easy. It's speaker at Michael hingson.com we would really appreciate it if you get a chance to give us a review. We love it because other people who might want to check out the podcast look at those reviews. And Jonathan for you and everyone, if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we'd sure appreciate it if you give us an introduction. And so with that, I want to thank you once again, Jonathan, for being here. This has been a lot of fun today. John Jakubowski  58:44 Thank you, Michael, God bless you. Have a great Michael Hingson  58:50 day. Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently. We all move forward together. Thanks again for listening, keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable

A young professional steps into leadership faster than expected and learns what really drives success. In this conversation, I sit down with Dana Prenger, a rising marketing manager at SmartSolve, who shares how growing up in a small town, competing in sports, and navigating college shaped her mindset around drive, resilience, and growth. You will hear how she turned uncertainty into clarity through programs like Life Design, how early career risks helped her step into leadership, and why she believes failure is simply a learning moment. We also explore SmartSolve’s mission to create water-soluble packaging and reduce waste, showing how purpose-driven work can fuel motivation. This episode is a reminder that progress comes from consistent effort, not one defining moment, and that your mindset will shape how far you go. Highlights: 00:10 Discover how stepping into new opportunities before feeling ready builds real confidence 06:02 Learn how sports shape discipline, time management, and long-term success habits 10:00 Understand how exploring different paths helps you find the right career direction 20:00 See how real-world internships can define and accelerate your career path 34:36 Discover how early sales experience builds resilience and confidence under pressure 51:39 Learn how reframing failure as a learning opportunity changes how you grow and move forward Bottom of Form About the Guest: Dana Prenger is a Marketing Manager at SmartSolve, a zero-waste packaging technology company with a bold mission to make packaging no longer trash. In her mid-20s, Dana has quickly built a career in B2B marketing, contributing across content creation, social media, email campaigns, event marketing, video projects, website management, and brand storytelling. As SmartSolve celebrates its 10-year anniversary, she is grateful for the opportunity to wear many hats and help bring an innovative, sustainability-driven vision to life. She grew up in a small town in Ohio, where she learned the value of hard work, teamwork, and community. A three-sport athlete in high school, Dana was a member of the 2019 Ohio state basketball team and graduated as her class Salutatorian—experiences that shaped her competitive mindset and leadership style long before her professional career began. Dana earned a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration with a specialization in Marketing from Bowling Green State University. During her time at BGSU, she was a Dean’s Scholar, recipient of the Women in Business Leadership Scholarship, and an active member of the American Marketing Association. She was selected for the inaugural Ohio Export Internship Program, where she was matched with SmartSolve—an experience that ultimately launched her career with the company. Driven by curiosity and connection, Dana thrives in fast-paced environments where creativity meets strategy and marketing feels intentional and human. Outside of work, she loves to travel and has visited more than ten countries and counting. She is motivated by meaningful work, strong relationships, and conversations around marketing, sustainability, packaging innovation, and career growth. Ways to connect with Dana: LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dana-prenger/ SmartSolve website: https://smartsolve.com/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hello everyone, and welcome once again to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I'm really excited to be here today. We've been waiting for this one for a while, and I'm glad we were finally able to do it. I found Dana Prenger online, and her boss and she decided to come on, and then we'll have to get her boss on, because then we want to find out the real truth about Dana. Dana Prenger  01:28 Yes, thanks, Michael, thanks. Michael Hingson  01:31 I'm such a big help, right? But Dana, Dana Prenger  01:35 I was debating on joining. I was like, we should have John, the president of smart solve, share about our story first, and I didn't feel worthy enough to share my story right away, but Michael was very reassuring, and it's like you got this let's give it a go. Michael Hingson  01:48 Yeah, you can tell us a little about smart solve. It's not going to affect having John on because he'll tell more of the story, and he'll tell it from his point of view. So I'm not too worried about that? Well, Dana. Dana is a marketing person. She graduated from Bowling Green State University. I didn't know it was a state university, Dana Prenger  02:10 yep, BGSU. A lot of people get confused with Bowling Green. They think of Kentucky, but northern Ohio, yeah, nice College in town. Oh, cool. Is it? How large is it? Pretty big. It's a d1 school. Michael Hingson  02:25 When I went to UC Irvine, out here in California, one of the reasons I went was that it was a small school. It was actually a new school. The year I was a freshman, was the first year they actually had a graduating class at UC Irvine, there were, like about 2500 2600 students. They had their first graduating class, and I went and visited it in 19, excuse me, in 2024 because when I left, they were just getting ready to start a phi, beta, Kappa chapter, and it was too late for me to become a member. And in 2023 the there was a, there's a magazine that generally is all about Sigma Pi Sigma, the physics honor society. And they discovered me, and they wanted to do an interview. And during the interview, as I love to put it, I shot off my mouth and said that, in fact, I was was going to the school when they were forming the phi, beta, Kappa chapter, but it was too late for me to join, because I was leaving. And one of the people who read that story was a physics professor who came to UC Irvine, basically the year I left, and she is still there. She's still a professor. And she called me and she said, I am the historian for the local mu chapter of Phi Beta, kappa, and we want you to come back and become an honorary member of Phi two. Well, a member of, I guess it'd be an honorary it's not an honorary member. I'm actually a member, but it's of later on, not at the time being a student. So anyway, I went back down and there are 32,000 undergrads at that campus. Now it's crazy. Dana Prenger  04:16 Wow. So cool to see the growth. Michael Hingson  04:18 Of course, UC Irvine or UCI, as they love to say. UCI actually stands for under construction indefinitely, because they're always building something there. Dana Prenger  04:30 It's crazy. Yeah, yeah. BGSU has around 4000 students, so it's cool that it's a big enough college, but they had really great professors and instructors where you didn't feel like just a number there, you got to know people by name. I was involved, yeah, and a lot of different student groups. One of the programs that was really cool was being a life design student ambassador. Michael Hingson  04:53 Ah, well, we'll have to talk about that. But I like, I like the size 4000 is plenty low. Large that's pretty cool. Well, tell us a little bit about you, the the the early Dana, growing up and all that. Where did you grow up? And tell us about some of that. Dana Prenger  05:10 Yeah, of course. I grew up in a small town, Minster, Ohio, so that town's a lot smaller than, Bg, about a square mile. Very good community. A lot of my family's from there. My mom's a school teacher at the school. So very great place to grow up, good traditions, and it's still close to Bowling Green, so it's an hour and a half drive away, so I still go home quite frequently and visit family and friends. Michael Hingson  05:36 So you went you went to school. What time were you Where did you come from? Where were you born? Dana Prenger  05:43 Yeah, born in a local hospital, right near Minster, Minster, Minster, Ohio. We have a lot of German heritage. We do a big Oktoberfest festival every year, which draws a lot of people to it. But besides that, a lot of corn fields. Grandpa's a farmer family. Michael Hingson  06:01 So are you a beer drinker? Dana Prenger  06:05 Yes, I am. I Michael Hingson  06:07 never did like the taste of beer, but that's okay. I did take three years of high school German, so maybe that counts for something. Yeah, there you go. Well, so you, you, you went to school. There you went to high school and all that, and then you decided to go to Bowling Green, huh? Dana Prenger  06:26 Yep, and that's the thing I liked about being in this from a small town, you got to do a lot of things. I was very much a multi tasker, or tried to be well rounded as I could be So, doing school, different clubs, sports. I was a three sport athlete, doing volleyball, basketball and track. So coming to BG, it was fun. I did like an intramural volleyball league. And, yeah, I chose BG. A lot of people, kind of from our area, went there. After being on campus, it did feel kind of like a second version of home. Michael Hingson  06:59 So Wow. So three sports, that's that's pretty cool. That kept you busy. Dana Prenger  07:05 Thanks, yes. And I graduated minster in 2021 so I'm not sure if you, I might be your youngest podcast guest you've had on, Michael. You might Michael Hingson  07:15 be well. You clearly have done well. So you graduated from school in minster in 2021 Dana Prenger  07:22 Yeah, I was born in 2000 to June of 2002 so yeah, nine months after 911 911 Michael Hingson  07:30 so for you, though you were at Bowling Green State four years, Dana Prenger  07:37 three years. Oh, you graduated a year early Michael Hingson  07:40 for you. Now, when you graduated, you were what second in your class? Dana Prenger  07:50 Yep, from Minster. Yep, I was a salutatorian, so had to give a speech at my high school graduation ceremony, Michael Hingson  07:57 and so, so what did you talk about as a as a speaker, as a salutatorian? Dana Prenger  08:05 I shared a story and equated kind of the grade schools reflecting on memories as a clock. So I was like, as the clock strikes one, and I would throw in a funny little memory from first grade to second to third, kind of going around until it was clock striking 12 as we're about to graduate. Michael Hingson  08:23 There you go. So you you had some experience at public speaking? Do you still do public speaking today? Dana Prenger  08:30 I've joined a few podcasts before, but being in marketing too, when students come or groups visit, smart solve, I'll do some speaking there, but not near as much speaking engagements or experience that you have well. Michael Hingson  08:48 So you, you went right into Bowling Green, and you decided right up front you were going to do marketing. Or what did you major in at first? Or did you always stick to one? Dana Prenger  08:59 I was debating between two things. So yeah, I liked marketing, like the business element. I had an older brother who went to BGSU as well. He was in the College of Business. But I also liked design. And in high school, I was on the yearbook committee. So I liked to take pictures, like to design the pages. So I tried out a few different classes before officially declaring my major. VCT is the program visual communication technology. I took a few classes in that but ultimately, after my first year, decided to go on with business and marketing as my specialization. Michael Hingson  09:37 Well. But even so, VCT is, in a sense, related to marketing, although I understand it's a specialty as well, correct? Dana Prenger  09:48 Yep, very much related into it work hand in hand. I'm actually hiring for a digital content coordinator right now, so it's cool to have somebody that I'm looking for. With more of that specialized experience Michael Hingson  10:04 and and are we looking at people from Bowling Green? Dana Prenger  10:08 Yep, it's a in person position. So looking at people around the area or willing to commute? Michael Hingson  10:15 Yeah, because otherwise, bringing somebody in from out of state or from a long way away, and paying moving expenses and all that. That's a bigger challenge. Dana Prenger  10:25 Yeah, and one of the things I was involved at at BGSU that I really loved this program, it was a new program they were implementing called Life Design. So basically, it's based off of the book and research that the Stanford Bill Burnett and Dave Evans did, designing your life, but basically saying that a lot of students come and come to college and don't know their major and are undecided and trying to figure out classes. So it's just a way to build community along the way, and it's a class for first year students to help them prototype different pathways and different avenues for their life. Michael Hingson  11:05 And so do they get a chance to look at different kinds of curriculum, different disciplines and so on? Dana Prenger  11:11 Yep, different curriculum, different careers, thinking, planning out your years. If you would go in this major, join this major, do this club, basically just getting people to think outside of the box, and prototype is a big word that they used in design different pathways that work for you. How's that working? Yeah, it was really great program. I was one of the first people to come as a freshman, to have that class, and then the class evolved and grew. My second year at BG, when I became the life design ambassador, I joined the class and was helping the first year students out, and the program continued to grow, continued to grow. We actually had a new building dedication, Jeffrey, Jeff and Jan, rad, Bill center for life design, so I got to be a part of the whole new building opening, grand ribbon cutting ceremony. And just cool to see something build up. Michael Hingson  12:10 Is it still going on? Dana Prenger  12:12 Yeah, still going on. And it's a big kind of differentiator of what BGSU has compared to other colleges across Yes, Michael Hingson  12:20 I can imagine that is pretty unique, but it really sounds like a great tool, because I think a lot of people aren't necessarily as ready, and I don't know whether as ready as is the right way to put it, but as ready to make a commitment as to what major or maybe this Is that people want to really look at options before they make a decision. But either way, it's great to have that kind of a program, Dana Prenger  12:47 and being a student ambassador just helped students get adjusted. Like this is the first time a lot of kids are living off on their own, and so just being there as a reference and resource for them some things they don't feel comfortable asking a professor even just about living in a dorm or college life. I was there for a group of students. Michael Hingson  13:08 Yeah, well, I remember going down to UC Irvine and starting and I didn't know a lot about a lot of the different things that would go on. But for us back in the day, as it were, you were just kind of thrust into it and you you could learn it and but again, I think that's one of the reasons I really liked the fact that it was a fairly small college or university at the time, and I remember I was put in the dorm with all of The athletes for the campus not being an athlete, but they had World Champion water polo team and other things like that. And people would occasionally pray play pranks on me, until the day came when I got to play a prank on them. Gained a lot of respect for that. So I was pretty cool. Dana Prenger  14:00 Are you going to share the prank or keep it a secret? Michael Hingson  14:03 Well, what happened was my my guide dog, my first guide dog, Squire, who's a golden retriever with a wicked sense of humor. Squire was in my room and I was next door with another freshman. We were trying to solve a physics problem. My master's is in physics. I went back into my room and there was no squire. Well, it turns out that they had stolen squire, and they hid him and and I kind of figured that part out, but I went through the dorm looking and of course, everybody was snickering and watching me. I went into the restroom and called him, and he didn't respond. He you know, I didn't hear him anywhere. I even opened the showers, and there was no response. And finally, one of the students who had seen all this happen came over and he said, Look, Squire is in the shower. Or and we went in and opened the door, and Squire comes right out, bouncing and having a good old time, having put it all over on me, as it were. But what we did was they didn't, you know, most all the students weren't paying attention to the fact that this guy was showing me where Squire was. We hit squire again, and I went out and got really ticked, saying, What did you guys do with my dog? I'm sure you took the dog, and everybody was laughing, always in the shower, and they went in the shower, and there's no dog because we hit him elsewhere. So, you know, we got back at him. It was kind of fun. And Squire made no noise when I was looking for him, what a horrible sense of humor. Dana Prenger  15:44 Golden Retrievers are great dogs. Michael Hingson  15:46 They are. Well, it was fun. I mean, you know, it was all in it was all in good fun, but still not the best thing to do to a guide dog. But that's okay. But the the jocks were, were were, were the major players of the campus. Actually, there's a great story. Every room had a phone in the dorm. And so in one of the women's dorms, one day, one of the women started getting some obscene phone calls from somebody, and she told her boyfriend about it, who was one of the jocks, and they, one day, they they told her, if you get him on the phone, this guy calls back, try to keep him on the phone and get somebody to let us know. And they, when this guy called, One day, she got word to her, her boyfriend, and all of the other jocks. They went through the entire phone book on campus in 10 minutes, dialing every number. Found three numbers that were busy, two of which were clearly not the right ones, because they were offices and all that. And so there was this one, and they all went over, knocked on this guy's door. Can you imagine all these big water polo and football players and all that went over and knocked on his door and they said, Hang up the phone and don't you ever do it again. It was great. I mean, teamwork, what? What teamwork? So, you know, they were all pretty neat guys. I gotta Dana Prenger  17:19 say, Yeah, being part of a team is just so good, and for building your character, like growing up being on basketball team, volleyball team, my basketball team actually made it to state in the year 2019, so you really do form a nice bond with them. And even now, as I'm in a different phase of life, your work, team, workplace, just really important, Michael Hingson  17:47 just really important too. Yeah. Well, if you were to describe your hometown with one word or whatever, how would you describe it? Dana Prenger  17:55 Ooh, that's a good one. I would say tradition, just because we do have so many traditions that bring the community together, or minster school motto is tradition of excellence. So that's what I would use. Michael Hingson  18:09 So that's pretty cool, though. But you had, you've had parents who who honored you, but who also, I'm sure, did a lot to teach you things and and help you grow up in the right way. Dana Prenger  18:26 Yes, yeah, a lot of thanks to both my parents, yeah, Mark and Jody. And then I had two siblings, two brothers, siblings and one sister. So family of six, wow, the second oldest, so I had older brother kind of paving the way me younger sister, and then a younger brother, who's a senior right now, and he's debating on where to go for college, and I think he's also going to be going to BGSU Michael Hingson  18:56 well, and I'll bet Older brother especially made sure that sister was treated well, Yep, yeah, brothers do that, right, what? That was fair. That's okay. Well, so you, you worked pretty hard at it all and, and, and had a lot of fun. So tell me more about your your whole time at college, getting marketing degrees and and what all that was like, and then how you ended up going to work and going to work for somebody close by. That must have been a joy. Dana Prenger  19:34 Yeah. So yeah, I loved marketing. And as I said, VCT, I was considering that, and I could have graduated like I did in three years with just marketing, or I could have stayed longer and did an international business specialization. I love traveling. I've been to 10 plus countries, and yeah, thought about doing a study abroad because that older brother of mine, he did do a study abroad in Strasbourg. Of France, and loved it, but instead, I came across this program called the Ohio export internship program. So basically, it's a program designed for small to mid size companies in the state of Ohio, and the state helps them out by going through the whole interview process for candidate, all the screening, teaching them adequate coursework, and then they'll pay for half of the interns wages for the summer. So in the spring, I did a three credit hour course. Had a group of 20 students in my cohort, and then all different colleges in the state of Ohio participated in this too. But then I could have been matched up with the business anywhere in the state of Ohio for my summer internship, summer of 2023 and I just so happened to get matched up with smart solve and that's how I came to know about them Michael Hingson  20:57 cool well, so having been a three sport person and all that. What do you find today from all of your sports experiences that helps you in your career and and how is that all stuck with you? Dana Prenger  21:15 Yeah, definitely the hard work and the grit and drive being able to focus your energy and really go when you have to go, yeah and yeah, managing your time effectively, like when I was in sports, you still had school, you still had other things you had to do in the evening. So being able to manage your time and get a lot of things done. Michael Hingson  21:42 So you you learned a lot about time management, having to juggle three sports and everything else that you were doing. And so how did all that work when you got to Bowling Green, though, did you? Did you have as many different kinds of activities you weren't doing three sports at Bowling Green, I presume? Yeah, no Dana Prenger  22:01 less sports and more trying to focus the academics and, like I said, what I wanted to do with my life. So, yeah, I spent a lot of time being the ambassador for life design. Still did sports just for enjoyment, fun. I did an intramural volleyball League. Yeah, I was involved in the American Marketing Association. Once I found out my true passion, I really liked marketing. Was involved with that, and I was also involved in through the College of Business Dakota Dean's Advisory Council on diversity and inclusion. Michael Hingson  22:37 What did you think about that? Dana Prenger  22:42 Yeah, it was really good for me to be a part of and opened my eyes to a lot of things, because my small hometown, though I love it, and we have great tradition, we are kind of a little bubble of not a ton of diversity. So being opened up to new, new perspectives and new things that was really beneficial. Michael Hingson  23:06 Well, certainly there were other small colleges around. Why did you specifically choose Bowling Green? Dana Prenger  23:13 Yeah, I think I wanted it was a perfect distance. I still wanted to be close to my family and close to home, but also I wanted to go out and experience on my own. If I chose a school too close to home, I would just be driving home, coming, eating dinner with my parents, and not really fully immersing into my independence. Michael Hingson  23:34 So so it was kind of just the ideal distance, if you will. Dana Prenger  23:42 And being like I said, a bigger college, so there is more opportunities sporting events and games, but they had it at an affordable price too, like going to football games my friends and I love to go watch and cheer on the Falcons, but it wasn't like a big school where we had to pay a lot for the tickets as well. Students got free tickets to all sporting events. So I enjoyed that. Michael Hingson  24:06 Oh, that's cool. How big was the stadium? Dana Prenger  24:10 Pretty big. I don't know the exact size, but yeah, it's right off the highway too. So as you drive on 75 through Ohio, you'll see the stadium in the road Michael Hingson  24:24 well, but you, but you enjoyed it. Do you still do any work or activities at Bowling Green? Dana Prenger  24:32 Yeah, so I'm living in BG right now, as I work at Smart solve, they do have a program called the regional network leaders, which tries to keep alumni engaged. So I joined that, and I'm on a team with seven other individuals just helping keep the alumni connected to the university. How's that working? It's good. It's good. Great to meet. With people, and just gives me something else to do besides work in the evenings. But it's not a huge time commitment. We meet about once a month, Michael Hingson  25:10 but it works out pretty well. Well, so you worked, you worked as a life design ambassador. Do you still do anything with that program today? Dana Prenger  25:24 No, not as much as I would like to. I think they are also in the progress, because I was one of the first people to graduate with having to keep us engaged and involved. I still am connected with a lot of them on LinkedIn, and sometimes one of the life design coaches will message me if a student has questions or wants to just have a quick prototype call or conversation to learn more about marketing or their field. Michael Hingson  25:53 You're you're available to help. Which is cool. It's neat to be able to to be a part of all of that. Yeah. Which is cool. So anyway, you you were part of the export internship program and so on, and that eventually got you connected with smart solve. What attracted you to specifically to smart solve? Why did you decide that that's what you, at least were were willing to explore? Dana Prenger  26:20 Yeah, I really liked smart solve. How strong we are with our core values and vision, mission and purpose statement. Most companies say these are our core values, but they're just words on the wall, and they don't get lived out each and every day. But here at Smart solve, we do something called the daily word of inspiration. So we have about 20 full time employees on our team, and we'll just have a calendar we rotate whose day it is for inspiration, and it's just a brief 15 minute meeting, how we start our day every day. And you can share a personal life story. You can share a Bible verse, any watch a video, motivational video, anything you want to give for your inspiration. And then we start our day with word of prayer, optional. Word of prayer. Michael Hingson  27:13 Well, that's pretty cool, and certainly that's a lot of commitment. I was going to ask, why you feel that the whole idea of smart solving what it's doing generates so many important values, but it's pretty clear why that's the case. Dana Prenger  27:31 Yeah, the core values are character, drive, innovation, joy, humility and growth. All right, it's really cool to hear those lived out, and you can see our team members each embody it smart. Solve is a faith based company, but we don't discriminate or only hire people of the same faith. In fact, not everybody's Christian that works here, but we are open about it because we want people to be comfortable about it, or be knowing that we do have that optional daily prayer every day Michael Hingson  28:07 well, and I think there's value in that. I mean, it's, I think, important to recognize that there are a lot of different religions in the world. And the fact is, if you really study most religions, they all pretty much essentially end up going to the same place, and they all believe in the same basic rules anyway, which is, which is pretty important, which is, which is kind of good. Well, where did the term or the title of the company, smart solves come from? Dana Prenger  28:38 Yeah. So John, he's our current CEO, co founder of smart solve. He smart solve. He calls himself intrapreneur, because smart solve was under CMC group, which is they had a bunch of different businesses. One of their main things was supplying labels, any and all kind of labels. And this is kind of the evolution story of smart salt, water salt. One of the customers was like, our labels are great, but it would be nice if they could just dissolve or wash away, because it was an application in the back of a kitchen. How you have, like, containers, the plastic containers you have to label food days of the week and expiration dates for food safety loss. But when they were putting the containers in the dishwasher, after trying to, like, peel or scrub the labels off, there would still be adhesive, sticky residue on it. Yeah. So, so, yeah, they developed water soluble label. And so, yeah, a label that can dissolve and wash away. So day mark still sells water soluble labels to food rotation business, but John was an intern at that time and was like, I think there's a much bigger. Market for water soluble materials, besides just label for food rotation so he can, they allowed him to take that idea and run with it. So smart solve is specifically water soluble materials. We sell just water soluble paper that dissolves the labels and then also pioneering water soluble, flexible packaging, so power stock applications Michael Hingson  30:27 I remember many years ago, and I still don't know how they knew it, but I got a package in the mail and it had popcorn in it, you know, the shipping stuff, and somebody said, Oh, this is that water soluble popcorn. If you put it in water, it'll it'll melt. And I was going, No. And sure enough, it was, I don't know what visually was the clue that that was water soluble, but it was, Dana Prenger  30:58 yeah, so our company, smart solves vision is to make packaging no longer trash. We realize the increased amount of plastic packaging, or just any packaging unnecessary consumption going on in the world today. So having an avenue or a smart solution of how to solve the problem, Michael Hingson  31:21 well, you can always come up with a new kind of straw that everybody can use, that they if they throw it away, it's not going to fill the world full of plastic. That's another story. Dana Prenger  31:35 Yeah. But in microplastics, to the increasing research and studies how microplastics are impacting human health and the environment. One of the fun facts we like to share is, well, not fun fact, but sad fact that by 2050 they project that plastic in the ocean will outweigh fish in the ocean. Michael Hingson  32:04 I hadn't heard that one, but I'm not surprised which it's so unfortunate. Dana Prenger  32:09 Yeah, great garbage patches of just waste forming out in the ocean. Michael Hingson  32:15 Is there a way, has anybody looked at the fact that, yeah, there's a lot of trash out there and so on, and it's great to come up with trash that won't be trash that will dissolve. But what do you do with all the stuff that's there? Has anybody been working at all on finding ways to dissolve that stuff as well? Dana Prenger  32:35 Yeah, I think that's harder, because it's already all out in the ocean, but there are efforts and people who go out and try to collect it, but then it's like, once we take it out of the ocean, where do we put it, just into massive landfill areas? Well, that's Michael Hingson  32:51 why I was wondering if there is some sort of a chemical process that could be introduced that would dissolve a lot of that material, rather than trying to collect it and take it somewhere, but I realize it's a much more of a significant challenge to do, because you don't want to hurt the fish and you don't want to hurt the ocean. But nobody has come up with a way to just dissolve all that plastic Dana Prenger  33:15 and stuff yet. Yeah, and our material is non toxic to fish, so it's we don't want people to we wouldn't say, just throw it in the ocean, but if it would end up litter becoming there, it would dissolve. Be safer fish. There's multiple end of life avenues for smart solves packaging, which is, yeah, flushable too. So some customers of ours are like toilet bowl cleaner cleaners or feminine care tampon packages that is flushable, so you can just flush the packaging down the toilet Michael Hingson  33:49 right, which, you know, and all of that is very important, but it still seems to me that hopefully somebody someday will figure out a way to dissolve All the stuff that's out in the ocean, yeah? Because I think collecting it is never going to happen as fast as it gets thrown in the ocean in the first place, Dana Prenger  34:09 yeah, especially in different countries around the world where there's not as adequate systems set up for landfills or recycling and waste is just much more incremental. Michael Hingson  34:22 So when you graduated and you started at Smart solves full time, what did you do? Dana Prenger  34:31 Yeah, so, actually, so the Ohio export internship program, I was a full time intern for the summer of 2023, okay, and then I was finishing my final year at school at BGSU, but they offered me to stay working part time. So I did work part time at Smart solve. My senior year of BGSU, I was a sales development rep, so business development, I had to do a lot of cold calling, so you just pick up the phone try to call people. So tell them about smart solve and so, yeah, I did that until I graduated in May, and then they kind of knew that they wanted more marketing support, and I liked marketing better than the sales prospecting. Sales, yeah, so they created a position for me, marketing coordinator, what was Michael Hingson  35:22 it like selling smart solve did you find that there were a lot of people who were very pessimistic or skeptical about what it could do? Or were you able to demonstrate pretty, pretty easily that in reality, sports fans it works? Dana Prenger  35:38 Yeah, I think smart solve products were easier than most things to sell and communicate about because, like we said, it really is a product that is better for people, better for the planet. I said our core values earlier in our vision, but our mission statement is enabling people to better care for the planet by pioneering Zero Waste packaging technologies, so smart solves. Big slogan is zero waste, zero hassle, zero hassle in the consumer. So it's cool to share that with prospects, and they would be more receptive, I feel like, than selling products that people don't necessarily need or want, but still in any industry, no matter how cool the product you have, when you're cold calling people on the phone, you're going to get some of those people that are like, how did you get my number? Or I don't want to talk, or just denies and ends the phone on you. So yeah. Well, that happened a lot of character building, doing that. Michael Hingson  36:38 I experience it oftentimes today, looking for speaking opportunities, even so, same concept, yep, and I've been selling my whole life, so I'm I'm fine when there are objections, when I at least there's a lot of truth to the to the fact when I at least get an objection, at least I can then go off and deal with it, but the people who just shut you down and you don't even get the opportunity to deal with the objection. That's a different story. Dana Prenger  37:06 Yeah, it really does. Michael Hingson  37:07 So was John a chemist? Or how did he develop Dana Prenger  37:11 all of this? Yeah, so John had a team of like, independent contractors that he would work with, and also just some of the knowledge with the water soluble label coming from CMC, but yeah, we have a lot of different team members now, research chemist employees that helped bring this product to life. And one of the cool things is doing a new product launch. So all of our typical water soluble materials we have today you can still buy, but we just now launched a new product called Pure nil zero, which is a completely plastic free, 100% bio based packaging substrate solution Michael Hingson  37:58 is packaging constructed like that, more are less stringent or sturdy than the more traditional kinds of packaging. Or is that something that you've been able to overcome and it's not any less durable? Dana Prenger  38:16 Yeah, it depends. It all depends on what you're trying to package in it. Yeah, it won't be as strong as plastic, but a lot of customers will use it for, like, powdered solutions. So obviously, if you have, like, liquid hand soap, you can't put that in our package, or it will start to break apart. But there's a lot of like, travel and convenience powdered packets that work great in our material. And the thing about pure no which is this new product, it is approved for direct food contact. So our other packaging is more agricultural, personal care, laundry, dish, a lot of those applications, this new product is approved for direct food packaging. So say you would have a powder drink, pack, mix, instant coffee, and eventually we want to get into more snack packaging, but there becomes certain limitations with oxygen and moisture barrier, Michael Hingson  39:12 yeah, well, you know, but that's still, it's it is really fascinating to hear about this, though, because there's, there's so much that that goes into it, it's really kind of fascinating to to see. Do you have customers all over or mainly in Ohio or what? Dana Prenger  39:33 Yeah, we do have customers all over the world. In fact, a lot in the European, European union, union that area, a few customers in the UK, since sustainability, new laws are happening all over. Michael Hingson  39:49 So you recently became the marketing manager. Tell us about that. Yeah. Dana Prenger  39:54 So yeah. I was very, very rapid upward marketing coordinator. For a while, and then just the end of this year, I got the promotion to Marketing Manager, which is great because I yeah, thank you. Get to manage content creators, to have somebody that creates blogs for us, somebody that helps with video support, especially because the water soluble material, it is so cool to see it, dissolve yourself. So yeah, doing a lot of video creation, and then, as I mentioned earlier, we're hiring for a digital content coordinator, a full time in office role. Michael Hingson  40:34 So are other companies doing the same kinds of things that smart solve does? Dana Prenger  40:39 There's a few, not a ton, but there's other bio based solutions. So for example, one company is using seaweed to make packaging, and there's other bio based materials, but not many water soluble packaging. Michael Hingson  40:57 So what makes smart solve unique? Dana Prenger  41:00 Yeah, we are unique for the ability to help you come to market with it. Our materials printable too. So some of the other like plastic PVA based, say laundry packs or dish packs, it's that plastic ours. You can print on it so you can have certain branding or safety warning instructions. Remember the challenge few years back when kids were trying to eat Tide Pods? We say, how different would it be if you could have had a big warning logo or image on the pod itself for them not to consume? Michael Hingson  41:38 Yeah, well, that's of course, the issue is, will they really pay attention to it or not? Dana Prenger  41:45 Yeah, also true, but we do think there's a good branding perspective too. Just to have brand on it, have instructions. We get. Our packaging is a little bit more expensive than just plastic and traditional uses, but we try to show our benefit by being better for the planet, better for the environment, and you do get a lot of good marketing. ROI, some of our customers have said using the materials and videos and being able to make a lot of sustainable claims has helped their company Michael Hingson  42:21 as a whole. So what kind of goals do you basically have as the marketing manager at Smart solve for what you're looking to do over the next few years? Dana Prenger  42:31 Yeah, one of my big grows goals is just growing, growing our followers, growing our reach. I feel like not a lot of people know about smart solve or know about our materials. So we have a LinkedIn page, since we are a B to B business, we also have Facebook and Instagram, but LinkedIn is our primary social that I'm looking to grow. So I think I shared with you smart solves LinkedIn profile, if you want to include that, or if any of the listeners today want to give us a follow, I'd really appreciate it. Michael Hingson  43:03 Well, absolutely that makes sense to do. Dana Prenger  43:07 Well also just increasing website. I help add new pages on our website, increasing our web visitors, new traffic, and creating more leads and sales qualified opportunities for our sales team, Michael Hingson  43:21 so dealing with diversity and and such, what do you do to make sure that your materials are accessible for people who don't necessarily read the print or who aren't going to be able to see pictures on the websites and so on. Do you have you all done a lot with that yet? Dana Prenger  43:42 Yeah, we're getting into improving and open to recommendations and suggestions. A lot of with the package itself, we leave up to the individual brands who sure have the product, because we're just the packaging supplier, not actually the end brand that uses it, but yeah, our website, I we use a site to do that, trying to become more accessible. There's so many ways to learn and do it, so, yeah, Michael Hingson  44:15 well, but it makes sense to do so with all the sports and stuff background that you've had, and we talked about this a little bit already, but what lessons from sports and leadership and all of your experiences have translated most into what you're doing today? Dana Prenger  44:37 Yes, I would say I'll tie it back to drive that one of our core values at Smart solve, and just as an athlete, having to really drive, whether that be your mental state, getting in the right mindset before a game or big competition meet, you. And just putting your effort into your skill to perfect it Michael Hingson  45:06 well, and an important thing to do by any standard. So, you know, a lot of people have jobs, they have worked in various places, they've matured and so on, but a lot of times there's kind of a defining moment that shows them that what they're doing is really what they wanted to do and so on. Do you have a defining moment like that that said this is really it? Dana Prenger  45:37 Yeah, that's a good question. And I think life is a journey, and there's always going to be small moments throughout I haven't had one big knock me off my feet moment that's shaped everything, but more kind of collectively built up small moments, small hurdles, small challenges that's got me where I am Today, any specific challenge that comes to mind, yeah, I would say. I would say, just going through college and yeah, figuring out my path and different setbacks along the way, throughout, trying to figure out my major and things and one of a small, funny setback, but not that big of one. I mentioned it as I was 16 years old, going to get my driver's license from sports. I had an injury and sprained my ankle, so I couldn't walk at the time, but I really wanted to get my driver's license, and it was my left foot, so not my right foot. So I my parents, the car that we had was a minivan with all my siblings, so Driver's Ed test, I'm pull up in this minivan, and I didn't want to let that setback delay me from passing my driver's test, so I had my crutches, crutched out, put my crutch in the back of the car, and then drove, using my right foot to pass my driver's test. Michael Hingson  47:10 And you passed your test, huh? Yes, and you did well on the written part as well, yep. Well, all I have to say is I think you should come out here to Victorville and spend a little bit of time the way people drive out here is crazy. I still submit that they ought to let me have a license, because I am sure that the way I would drive is every bit as good as the way people drive in Victorville right now. Wow, I don't see the problem myself. Dana Prenger  47:40 Yeah, and it's crazy. With innovation, the new things coming up, like nowadays, the autonomous vehicles, I'm curious to see in the next years how that will impact driving. When I am older and have children, when will they have to get their driver's test like that? Or there's some bold suggestions that say in many years to come, you won't have to drive a car. Michael Hingson  48:07 Well, I, in all seriousness, am really of the opinion that it will be great when autonomous vehicles are really as stable and as foolproof as they ought to be, because I think that we really do need to take driving out of the hands of drivers. It's just too many people to do too many crazy things on the road. The reality is that for blind people, and it's not going to be in prime time, certainly in the very near future, but the National Federation of the Blind challenged private universities and companies to develop a car a blind person could drive, and I don't mean an autonomous vehicle, but literally one that would provide the information so that a blind person could drive it just like a sighted person. And if you really look at driving, what is driving and why is it that blind people can't do it well, the answer is, because we don't have a way to get the information in as timely and as functional a way as sighted drivers do with eyesight. And the the people who realize that actually developed a vehicle that a blind person could drive. If you go visit the website of the National Federation of the Blind nfb.org, and search for Blind Driver Challenge, you can actually see a video of a blind man driving a vehicle around the Daytona Speedway right before the 2011 Rolex 24 race. Wow, and he wasn't driving it with people communicating with him through walkie talkies or anything like that, the car was literally transmitting the information to him that allowed him to drive the vehicle, drive through obstacle courses and do a variety of other things, pass a vehicle and so many other things. Because the fact is, today, the technology exists to provide that information to blind people, but it's not ready for prime time, and probably won't be, but autonomous vehicles are coming, and I really am looking forward to the time that they really work and work well, because they're going to make life a whole lot better for everyone. And I'm serious when I say taking the hand, the driving out of the hands of drivers, is pretty important to look at, yeah, so it'll be interesting to see how all that goes. So we've been talking about drive why other why? Else wise, did you really want to use Drive and make that kind of a theme for what we're talking about today? Dana Prenger  50:48 Yeah, I think drive just reflects the path that people have for life. And drive you always want to keep going being a goal oriented, focused person. There's a lot of things, and other people do experience many setbacks. And what I've learned from your story as well. When trouble would come your way, you didn't just stop. You kept moving, kept driving in a direction. Sometimes you might not always get from point A to point B. You might have to do a little bit of a detour in the journey of the drive, but yeah, that's kind of why I thought drive would be a good conversation topic word for today's podcast. Michael Hingson  51:29 But the reality is that that you can succeed. I tell people all the time that I reject the concept of the term fail, because if you fail, that's kind of an end all. You just, you just screwed up. Well, you didn't screw up. The issue isn't failure. The issue is what do you learn from it? And the issue is how you you move forward. And so I've learned that in reality, when things don't go right, I'm my own best teacher. I'm the one that has to take that information and internalize it and figure out how to move forward, people can suggest people can help. And I think that's important. But for me, personally, and for every individual on the planet, ultimately, we have to internalize it and make it succeed, which is, I think, so very important. Dana Prenger  52:19 Yeah, connecting some of those points is what we would talk about in life design too, because students would come and if they wouldn't pass a certain class or wouldn't do a certain thing, they would see it as a failure. And it's reframing failure and redefining it that, yeah, it's not, in fact, a failure, but a learning opportunity and experience Michael Hingson  52:41 it is. It's a growth opportunity by any standard, and that is something that we all really need to work on, because failure just isn't isn't fair and it isn't right, and we've got to get away from thinking that it is, Dana Prenger  52:56 and even reframing your experiences or statements you choose to say and think and believe about yourself like I could. I'm, as I said, one of a younger professional. Sometimes it can be intimidating or room full of people that know more than you. I could be down on myself. And look at it and say, Oh, I'm the youngest here. I am most inexperienced. I don't have as much skills or sets, or I could reframe it and think of it in a positive light and say, I am young, I do. I offer a new mindset. I bring new skills, new things that aren't already established. So kind of having that confidence and positive outlook to be able to reframe Michael Hingson  53:42 the other part of that. The other part of that, though, is that, yeah, you're young and all of that. But clearly some people have thought that you have a lot to contribute, and you're already doing that. And so obviously life is, is a is a place where we can learn, and we do need to continue to learn, but, but the reality is that we can always find learning as an end, as an adventure, and something that we need to do. And I think that that's exactly what we should we should be doing regularly, because it's always all about learning, yep, which really makes a lot of sense. So for you, what's next? For you? Do you have any notion? Dana Prenger  54:32 Yeah, I think I'm excited to continue developing this role, this new marketing manager role at Smart solve. I do like to travel. As I said, I've been to a lot of different countries, so wanting to further learn more about the world, new people, new places. Yeah, I want to have a family. I have a boyfriend that we're getting kind of serious. So looking for. To that next phase of my life and how well of a role model my mom was for me, I do want to be a mom as well someday. Cool. What countries have you been to? Yeah, I've been to Mexico, been to Portugal, been to Spain, one of the recent family trips. We just got back from Costa Rica. It was gorgeous there. We left right after Christmas and got back January 7 of this year. So that's why I'm still a little tan from the trip for you. But yeah, it was a good mix of adventure, zip lining, rock climbing, hiking, and then also just getting to relax and be in warm weather by a beach. Michael Hingson  55:46 What are what other countries, Dana Prenger  55:49 other countries that I've been to, went to Punta Cana, that was a very nice one, that Dominican Republic as the country, yeah. Michael Hingson  56:02 Cool. So the whole family went, Dana Prenger  56:07 yeah, all six of us. Wow. It works out nice because I have one sister and two brothers, and then my mom and dad. So it's kind of perfect, three and three, three girls, three boys. Michael Hingson  56:18 Yeah, that's, that's pretty cool. I'm glad that you you get a chance to have some of those experiences. What have you learned by going to other countries? Dana Prenger  56:29 Yeah, I've learned a lot just the way of life, the way they do things. Speaking of since we just got back from Costa Rica, one of the sayings they say all the time is Pura Vida, just pure life and kind of a more, not as upbeat, fast, hard paced environment as the US more free, yeah. But also it depends on the trip too. I've done some local mission trips. I wanted to do an international mission trip. I had it scheduled, but then that's when covid happened, so I had to cancel that. So bucket list coming up soon, I'm going to do a international mission trip. But it is different when you're traveling for just enjoyment vacation versus other purposes. Michael Hingson  57:19 You find that a lot of places where you visited, don't tend to take, and I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but don't take life as seriously as we tend to try to do here. Yeah, yeah. And it's, and it makes a lot of sense to lighten up a little bit, and then ought to do more of that. Well, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Dana Prenger  57:42 Yeah, they can message me on LinkedIn if they have a LinkedIn profile, or they can go to smart solve website, contact us through there. What's your LinkedIn name to me? Yeah, Dana, just my name. You can search it. Dana pranger. Dana, D, a n, a pranger, P R, E N, G, E R, Michael Hingson  58:04 okay, well, I hope people will do that. This has been fun, and you've got a lot of good insights that you've offered, and we're going to have to after you your marketing for a while, we'll have to have you come back and tell us Dana Prenger  58:19 more stories. Yeah, that would be wonderful. And, yeah, thank you for having me as a guest. Super fun. Yeah, we'll see you, John. Yeah. Now we'll get John on and he can, I gave you a little warm up to smart solve. He can get into more of the details. Michael Hingson  58:36 Well, I want to thank you, and I want to thank everyone for being here today. We really appreciate it. Love it. If you'd give us a five star rating wherever you are, and also, even more important than a rating, please give us a very positive review. We really love your reviews. People will and do monitor and read and watch these podcasts more when people review them. So we'd love you to voice your thoughts. If you'd like to reach out to me. I would love to hear from you, and especially if you might know and Dana you as well. If anyone else, in addition to John, who ought to come out on on unstoppable mindset podcast, feel free to email me, and we're changing the address so it's easy. It's speaker, S, P, E, A, K, E, R, at Michael hingson, M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com. Love to hear from you. Love to get your thoughts. And we'll we'll value them a lot. And if you know people who ought to come on, please introduce us. But again, Dana, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely a lot of fun, and hopefully we'll get to do it some more in the future. Dana Prenger  59:48 So thank you. Yes, this was great. Thank you, Michael, Michael Hingson  59:55 thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope to. Day's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook blinded by fear, it explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening, keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. You you.

What happens when your identity gets stripped away and you have to rebuild from scratch? I sit down with Jenna Rene Soto, a professional barrel racer, military intelligence analyst, author, and real estate investor who has lived through that exact challenge. You will hear how she moved from ranch life to the military, faced failure and financial collapse, and rebuilt her life with a stronger sense of purpose and self-worth. Jenna shares powerful lessons on identity, resilience, mentorship, and why chasing meaning matters more than chasing titles. I believe you will find this conversation both grounding and inspiring as you rethink what truly defines you and how to move forward when life forces a reset. Highlights: 00:39 – Discover how growing up on a ranch built discipline, work ethic, and a deep connection to horses 15:41 – Learn how making decisions without full information builds confidence under pressure 22:16 – Understand why focusing only on what you can control reduces fear and overwhelm 43:52 – Hear how hitting rock bottom can become the starting point for rebuilding your life 53:41 – Discover why your identity must go beyond your job or title to create real confidence 1:00:52 – Learn how changing your environment and taking small steps can help you break out of feeling stuck Bottom of Form About the Guest: Jenna René Soto is a real estate investor, author of Not Enough, professional barrel racer, and Mrs. Oklahoma City 2026. After serving nine years in the United States Air Force in intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance roles, including deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, she transitioned into entrepreneurship and built a business focused on real estate investment and redevelopment. Her journey has not been linear. Following her military service, Jenna experienced financial hardship that forced a complete reset. Through real estate, discipline, and personal development, she rebuilt her life and business from the ground up. That experience became the foundation of her work today—helping others understand the connection between identity, decision-making, and long-term success. In addition to her business pursuits, Jenna has remained deeply connected to the rodeo industry as a competitive barrel racer. The lessons from that world—consistency, resilience, and performance under pressure—continue to shape her approach to both business and life. She is also a strong advocate for coaching and lifelong learning, crediting mentorship as a key factor in accelerating her growth. As Mrs. Oklahoma City 2026, Jenna uses her platform to speak to students, professionals, and community groups about identity, resilience, and rebuilding after adversity. She believes service is not limited by age or circumstance and is committed to helping others recognize their value and take ownership of their future. Ways to connect with Jenna: Website: https://jennarenesoto.com Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/jennarenesotoYouTube: https://youtube.com/@jennarenesotoFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/jennarenesotoEmail: [email protected] About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hello, everyone, wherever you happen to be today? Or if I were playing Walter Winchell, I'd say Good evening, Mr. And Mrs. America and all the ships at sea flash. Anybody know who Walter Winchell was? If you don't know he was a reporter, did a lot of coverage in the world of radio and some on television. If you ever watched the old TV show, The Untouchables, with Eliot Ness, Walter Winchell was the narrator for that. He was a a pretty big reporter back in the day, as they say. But anyway, that's a different story, and we're not here to talk about Walter much today, but I want to thank you all for being here. Our guest today is Jenna Rene Soto. And Jenna has, well, she doesn't have a very exciting life. She's only been a barrel racer, Mr. Or Mrs. Northam, Mrs. Oklahoma City. She's been in the military. She's written a book. So you know, not much anyway. We're we're really glad that Jenna consented to be with us here on unstoppable mindset, and I think we'll have fun for the next hour or so. So, Jenna, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Thanks for joining us. Jenna Rene Soto  02:09 Thank you so much for having me. It's such an honor to be on your show, and I'm really excited to chat with you today. Michael Hingson  02:17 Well, and anything you want to talk about, we can talk about scandal is always a good thing, I'm sure. But anyway, that's another story too. Well, I'm glad you're here. Why don't you tell us a little bit about maybe the early Jenna growing up and some of that stuff. Speaker 1  02:33 Okay, so I grew up in western South Dakota on a rant that my great granddad homesteaded great great granddad actually in 1909 so my family grew up raising cattle and sheep, and then we ended up getting into the buffalo industry. But my love of horses really began at an early age, because we had horses to work on the ranch in South Dakota, it snows all the time, and the snow gets so deep, a lot of the areas where the cows would go to hide out from the weather you couldn't even access with a vehicle. So we had horses mainly to work, and my whole family ended up rodeoing, and I really just fell in love with it at an early age, and continued it all the way through college and competed on the equestrian team, and then I joined the military, and kind of got out of the military to pursue rodeo again, and ended up as a professional barrel racer. But horses have been a really big influence on my life and a huge passion of mine since I was just barely old enough to sit up, I'd been on the back of a horse. Michael Hingson  03:46 Well, what is barrel racing? I'm not familiar with it. I'm not sure if I've heard of it or not, but I'm not familiar with it. So what is barrel racing? Speaker 1  03:55 Well, barrel racing is the only women's event in the sport of rodeo, and you can think of it basically like a drag race, except instead of with cars, you've got horses. There are three barrels, and you can go around them from the left or the right first, but you make a clove release pattern, and the fastest time wins. The only penalty you might have is if you tip over a barrel. Yeah, five seconds. But if you are tipping over a barrel, the competition is so so close these days that we're down to the 100th of a second, so five second penalty, you're totally out. Michael Hingson  04:31 Yeah, so that's the only women's sport. So women typically don't participate in in other sports, or that's just the only exclusive women's sport. Speaker 1  04:43 That's the only professional level women's sport in rodeo. There are other organizations where women can actually ride bulls and ride broncs and rope, but in the main rodeo organization, it's only the barrel racing for the women. And it is exclusive to women as well, so you won't see any male competitors, but there are other organizations that allow that crossover. Why is that? I think it's tradition. Honestly, it's one of the oldest women's professional organizations in the country, and I think that is probably going to change in the future, because at least from my perspective, if I want to say that I'm the best in the world, I want to be competing against men, women, young and old. So I think they should do away with the age limits, first of all, and also the gender requirements. But I know that's a little bit controversial, but I think in the future, we'll see more male competitors trying to get involved with with this level of competition, Michael Hingson  05:49 but I would think also that women are capable of roping and riding bulls and so on. So I'm wondering why they're fewer and Speaker 1  05:58 further between. That's for sure. Writing is so physically demanding, it is a very, very challenging sport, but there are opportunities for women to compete, but I think the numbers just aren't there to make it more mainstream. But there, there are organizations where they can, yeah, but I will say I don't know, but maybe one or two, one or two people that do it, and I, I have tried riding a bull before, not a very aggressive one, and I don't care to get back up there again, because no matter what you're coming off, even if you make eight seconds, you're going to hit the ground. And it's not near as soft as it looks when you see other people. Michael Hingson  06:39 Yeah, the ground is not very forgiving, 06:43 is it not well? Michael Hingson  06:45 And I would rather make friends with an animal than ride it and get it mad at me. So I'm with you, in a sense. I like horses. I've petted bulls and cows and try to be friendly to them. And so I'm not, I'm not enamored with going up to one that's really likely to want a gourmet. Speaker 1  07:09 Yeah, yeah, I don't blame you. It is actually funny, though, a lot of the best bucking horses and bulls are really docile and pretty friendly when they're outside of the arena. And that's part of pro rodeo is born to buck program. So just like any other animal athlete, they have to instill you want to perform at that level and have the athleticism to be able to even get the cowboy off. So not every bull is even capable of doing that. And it is funny too, because if they don't want to, they won't, and there's nothing that you can really make them, you know, try any harder than they want to, but, but the top pro bucking bulls and pro bucking horses, they know their job. They're very athletic and prompted, and they really turn it on when the lights in the crowd are, you know, are over them. Michael Hingson  08:00 So they're smart and they know they're in a performing environment, as opposed to just always wanting to do it. I'm sure there are some that always want to, but mostly it's a performing thing, and they're smart enough to know that. Speaker 1  08:13 Yep, they are, and it's so cute. Each horse, at least, all of them that I've ever met, have such distinct personalities, yeah, and they're almost like a dog, if you're around them enough, you really get to know them and their preferences and their likes and dislikes. And it's really fun to get, to get that connection with your with your animal, Michael Hingson  08:32 yeah, and that's that's fine. So I didn't really know that, that it was more of a of a sport where the animals really do know what they're supposed to do and and they do it when they have to and when they don't have to, they're not necessarily feeling empowered to do that. They want to visit with people. Speaker 1  08:54 Yep, yep. That's right. That's cool. Michael Hingson  08:57 Well, there you go. Well, learn, learn something about that well and barrel racing that that keeps you busy. So how well do you do a barrel racing? Speaker 1  09:08 Well, I love it so much. I've been trying my whole life, honestly, and I I've won a lot, and I've had several setbacks, but it's something that I really enjoy, and the progress and the connection that I had with my horse in pursuit of greatness is is what I'm truly addicted to and keep coming back to. And I've had a couple of really great horses during my lifetime, but the thing I find the most rewarding is taking a young horse and watching them grow up on my ranch, and then finally, being able to get to ride them when they're big enough, and to see them learn and grow with you, and know that you know they had that experience because you you taught them and you gave it to them, and to see them be willing and proud of themselves. And that's pretty cool to me, and that's what, that's what I really enjoy. So I'll always have horses. Whether I'm able to compete or not. I think I'm a lifelong, you know, horse trainer, and just enjoy it so much. It's definitely something that I want to keep in my life. Michael Hingson  10:11 Well, it's also I would think about building a level of trust. And the reason you can be successful with a horse or whatever is that you you create and you develop that level of trust where you both know how to work with each other, you know how each other thinks. And, you know, I find that with every guide dog that I get, it's the same sort of thing. You've got to develop the relationship and make it work. Speaker 1  10:39 Yep, I can imagine this similar and just asking, you know, that animal to trust you and to, you know, take care of you as well. And something a lot of people don't think about in the rodeo world is that you're you're actually running full speed into an arena that you're not sure what the ground is going to be like, and there is a lot of responsibility on the horse to be able to find his footing and act quickly. And while I am hoping that we are able to turn the barrel as close as possible, if they're not able to do that because of the ground, that's where you'll see, some horses kind of be a little bit wider or maybe stumble, but a lot of times we'll just taking care of their rider. And so it is kind of cool how you you can work together and and there's always seems like there's more to do, but, but having that initial trust and bond is so important, because you really are asking a lot of them to go just totally full speed into arena lights and music and applause and to take care of you, and they eat it up. Yeah, they do. There are some that like it more than others, honestly. And just like the bucking bulls and the bucking horses, if they don't actually enjoy it, they're not going to perform well. And the sport is so competitive that they've really got to love it, and you also have to truly love it. And kind of, when you get to the rodeo, if you're showcasing what you've done at home, that's the fun part. But you've got to love the whole entire process, and more of it's going to be at home working through things than it is, you know, with the fringe flying at the at the arena and the performance, Michael Hingson  12:19 and again, like anything, it's a two way trust. So you both have to trust each other and learn to work together, which, which is so important. And I wish more people would recognize that with their pets, that that's what it's really about, and it's about developing a deeper, true trusting relationship than most of us realize. Speaker 1  12:38 Yep, that is right. And I've actually, I've actually got a little rodeo dog that I take with me too, and he's part of the family as much as any of the horses, but I don't know that I have near the trust in him to run off or to take care of me if he's awfully so I really admire that the dogs and the work that you do with That's really incredible. Michael Hingson  13:03 Well. So you, you went to college, right? Yes, yep. Where did you go and what did you study? Speaker 1  13:12 I went to South Dakota State, and that was part of the military. When I joined, they would pay tuition anywhere in the state that I wanted to go. So that's the college that I decided on, and I actually got a partial scholarship for the equestrian program there as well. But I ended up studying political science, and that was part of my military journey as well. I was in intelligence, so I was most interested in foreign policy and and things like that, kind of in that Intel Avenue. Michael Hingson  13:47 I was wondering what got you into the military, so that that kind of led you into then working and being a part of the military for a while? Speaker 1  13:57 Yeah, I think the main draw for the military, to me was to get out of the small town that I grew up in and get to see the world. And I didn't really know what career field I should go in. That was kind of by chance, but it ended up totally changing my life, and it's been a part of my life since then, and I'm really glad that that happened for me, because I had no idea what Intel meant. And I really didn't know a fighter yet, from an aircraft carrier, from anything. I just had no clue when I went in. So it was totally eye opening experience, but I ended up being very fortunate in finding a job that I actually do like. Michael Hingson  14:37 So what attracted you to intelligence and how did, how did you use that? How did it change your life? Speaker 1  14:45 Well, they had a signing bonus, which was very significant, especially at an at an age of 18, to get college paid for and have that sign on bonuses put you so far ahead of most of your peers. Financially, that that was truly what, what drew me to it, and my as that scores were high enough where I did qualify. And I think that's one of the reasons why that career field was so scarce, because it is tough to get into. The training is very long, and a lot of people don't, don't end up being good at it, even if they do qualify. So they're always looking for people who are going to be able to progress and stay in the career field a long time. But I ended up, you know, doing nine years in the military as an intel analyst, which is very interesting to me, and then I got out to Rodeo, but ended up coming back to do surveillance and reconnaissance, which is right underneath that Intel umbrella. And then any of the jobs that I would find here, you know, in the US would be right underneath that too. And an Intel is such a huge career field. There's so many different ways you can go with it. One of the things I'm looking at now is human trafficking in Oklahoma, which I didn't realize was, you know, such a big problem, or a big department, but the Oklahoma Bureau of Narcotics has several intel analyst positions to just battle the human trafficking that's happening here, which I thought was very interesting. But so Michael Hingson  16:14 what makes a person really good at Intel? You said you were good at it. There are a lot of people who may qualify, but they're not really good. What does that mean? Speaker 1  16:23 Yeah, well, I think you have to have a natural ability to make decisions without all of the information, to excel in intelligence that and being able to speak in front of you, know, your commander or a unit and talk about what you think and why based on just the information that's given is a unique thing for a lot of people, especially somebody who's younger. So I've always been comfortable in front of a crowd. I've done, you know, pageants, rodeo and things like that. So just the nature of being in front of a crowd isn't super intimidating to me. But once I learned, you know, the process, I wasn't afraid to study and once I would study enough, it gave me confidence to get up in front of people and make decisions. And I found it very rewarding once you get to actually see what those decisions mean, as far as the Intel cycle and the whole operation that's going on overseas. It's pretty cool to be a part of such a big thing. And and I really did enjoy that, and it keeps it super interesting, because the battlefield is ever changing and that the enemy is ever changing, and no operation is exactly the same. So just super dynamic, clear field well, actually, a lot of pressure and keep you awake. Michael Hingson  17:44 Yeah, fun. Well, I know we're all dealing with, of course, now, the whole issue of a war in Iran and all that that must, must be a really intelligence pressured situation, because there's so much that can happen and go wrong and and go right, but that must be a challenge. Speaker 1  18:05 Yeah. And it's funny, I'm not, not really involved anymore in intelligence, so I, I always do wonder, you know, what is the real picture? What are we really doing? What are we preparing for, and what's going on that the public hasn't found out about yet, yeah, but it has surprised me some of the things that have come out just because the the world that I grew up in the Internet didn't quite exist, and I was going through school and we never put anything online press wasn't, you know, even something we considered or talked about, Just wasn't, wasn't part of our world. So to see some of the capabilities that we're using to, like, find a down pilot, or to go in and knock out communications and electricity, that's crazy to me that they're able to talk about that on an unclassified network. But I think it also serves a purpose, just in, you know, a show of force. And there's always more to the story than is ever, you know, put on the news. So there's, there's actually a lot of analysis that everybody needs to do, just as far as where they get their news, and trying to determine what is actually the point, and what are we doing really, and what are some of the outcomes? It's just a very dynamic and uncertain world to dive into, Michael Hingson  19:24 yeah, because I'm sure all of that is true, and there's a lot that we don't know. And to put it this way, it'd be nice to be a fly on the wall and know some of those things, but at the same time, I also know why not everything is put out, and then that's fine there. There are things that that really shouldn't necessarily be disclosed. The other side of it is though, that people want to disclose, or they want everybody everything to be disclosed, and that just doesn't work all the time. Sometimes we really need to learn to respect silence. There's value in that. Speaker 1  20:01 Yeah, Yep, absolutely. And you can't give away all of your capabilities, or it changes the battlefield entirely. Just so not, yeah, you know, the rest of the world will be prepared to deal with deal with us, and I think should have an upper hand and keep our hearts kind of close to our chest. But at the end of the day, those decisions are so far out of my hands. And it's funny, even when I was, you know, actively working in a combat zone, they would usually only tell us just enough where you can succeed in your role. You didn't necessarily know the full picture or get to see outside of, you know, your little tunnel vision, but the people in charge, you know, you really had to have faith and trust in them, and what you're doing greater good and serves a purpose that we believe in and and it's interesting to think things back now on. You know, my earlier days in Intel, you just you have no idea what's going on truly, and how many different working pieces there are, and you're just doing your best to get this briefing out, but it's such a big, you know, wheelhouse, and there's so many parts, and it's a little overwhelming. Actually, they think they put 18 year olds out into that, and yeah, and expect them to thrive. Well, the other Michael Hingson  21:19 part of it is that just focusing on what you are are supposed to do probably makes a lot of sense, because you don't need to worry about everything so you so you were I didn't get the last of what you were saying. Speaker 1  21:36 I was saying that, you know, in your in your career field, you try to do the very best of the things that you can control, and you have to have a lot of faith in your team, the guy sitting next next to you, that they're going to also do their best. And you know, at the end of the day, you can't worry about the factors that you can't control, and that's something that's very challenging and in Intel to realize and to sit with, because there are so many dynamic moving pieces that it it will make you crazy if you try to read every single thing or know every single thing, and that kind of goes with rodeo too. You try to be as prepared as you can, but there's a lot you can't control. The more comfortable you can be in that the the better operator that you would be. Well, one of Michael Hingson  22:24 the mantras that I have lived by, especially since September 11, and have talked about on this podcast some, is that whole concept, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can. And one of the reasons that that's so important is especially for people who don't really know how to do this, well, if you just worry about everything in you, what if everything to death? You're going to create so much fear in your life, you won't really be able to cope with anything. And we all ought to learn to just focus on the things over which we really have control. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aware of other things, but we need to learn not to worry about them and only worry about the things over which we have control, because those are the things that will really be able to help you deal with any fear that you may have, and also deal with being able to control fear and not focus on stuff that doesn't make sense. Speaker 1  23:20 Yeah, I like that a lot, and it is sometimes easier said than done, but it is, Michael Hingson  23:29 well, it is, it is something that one can learn, however, how to do? You can learn to control, sir, you can learn to deal with just the things over which you have control and learn not to what if or not to what ifs in an emotional way, the things that you can't. I gave a speech a couple of years ago to the business continuity Institute, and business continuity as they just as the people who are in it describe it, they're the what if people. They're the ones that are always looking to analyze and consider what could happen to their business, or the business they work for that could cause it to crash or not succeed or or have a problem. And they're the ones that have to put in place the things that will allow a business to continue. So like with the wars over in in the Middle East and so on, businesses over there have to deal with finding ways to have business continuity, whether it's backing up computer data, other forms of communications, or whatever, and they've got business continuity people to help them do that. But the reality is that those business continuity people have been thinking about that for a while. The difference is they don't get emotionally involved, and they don't let it worry them, because all they can do is deal with what they can deal with, and they recognize that, and it's and it's really so important to focus on the things over which you really do have control, and the rest even, although you may be aware. But you need to learn to filter it out and not let it worry you, because that's just going to drive you crazy. And the reality is, like over 95% of the things we worry about will never happen, and there are things that we don't have any control over anyway. Speaker 1  25:15 That is very true. Yep, that is very true. Michael Hingson  25:20 So you, you eventually did get kind of out of the military, but you've built a lot of different life. You've been in the rodeo, military, real estate, involvement and author. What connects all of that? Speaker 1  25:37 Well, I think that, you know, I'm, I'm always interested in progressing and working towards something so if I feel like one avenue isn't isn't serving me anymore, I'm not afraid to pivot and try something new. And I think I just have the personality type where I want to, you know, live a meaningful life and create impact. And whether it's rodeo or real estate, I've always enjoyed giving back and sharing with you know people who are like me or people who are on a similar journey, some of the lessons that I had learned along the way to help them kind of skip through some steps with this class at all possible, but I know when I really made the most progress. It was because of the thing, what I had around me, or a coach or a mentor, or some type of educational content that I got a hold of that really catapulted me, or at least got me into the state where I could find the answers. You know myself, but just having a an environment where it encourages you to do more, be more. That's something that you know, that you're called to, getting around the right people can make a huge difference. Then I think it's it's fun to pursue different things that we're interested in, whether it's career related or just something because you love it, like rodeo. I don't know that I'll ever be just a full time cowgirl again, but I love it so much that I've found a way to make it part of my life. And I think that's important for people to know too, because a lot of people their passion isn't, maybe going to make them money, and they may not be able to pay the bills doing this, but that doesn't mean that you can't, you know, fill your life with things that you enjoy. And so it's been a difficult, you know, balance, to try to figure out how it's all going to work together, but, but I really do enjoy different different facets in different areas, and I feel like if I had more time, I would pick up even more hobbies, but really maxed out with what we've got going on currently. Michael Hingson  27:39 How did Mrs. Oklahoma come into it? Speaker 1  27:43 Well, I grew up doing rodeo Queen pageant, and it was actually one of the things I wrote about in my book, because it was the first time I really faced, you know, loss and judgment and the feeling of you just aren't good enough, and there are no other options, was to compete at Miss Troy to America and to not win. And I had set my sights and my goals on that since I was just a little girl. And it's unique in the rodeo world, because you only get to try one time, and there's no other organizations. There's no other options, actually. So it's just heartbreaking to realize that that dream is, you know, that dream is put to bed, and to figure out what's next ended up led it led to, you know, other pageant systems and other ways to give back and make a difference. And having been Miss Rodeo, you know, I know that with the crown and with that visibility is a huge avenue to make a difference. It gets you in a lot of the right rooms. It gives you credibility, and it it allows you, you know, the connection and the support to do whatever it is that you are passionate about, and more so in the pageant world than the rodeo world, because the rodeo world, your job is to represent Professional Rodeo for for that sport and to advocate for that organization. But in the pageant world, you can pick, you can actually go after whatever platform means the most to you, and the year is yours to do with it what you will. And so with my book coming out, it just seemed like an easy no brainer to kind of combine the two, and it's allowed me to go to different schools and speak, to get on different podcasts, and it's been a really great combo. So the book that I've written will be, you know, further than just this year, but Mrs. Oklahoma City is a year long title, and I'll get to get go compete for Mrs. Oklahoma here in about two months. Michael Hingson  29:40 Wow. Well, that'll be, that'll be kind of fun. Do you? Obviously, you enjoy the pageant world some Speaker 1  29:48 I do. And actually, even if you don't end up winning the ultimate title, it's so fun to be around like minded women that are, you know, similar in age, or also live in your. State, because those are the people that I really enjoy collaborating with, connecting with, and end up being lifelong friends with. I remember, you know, when I was Miss Rodeo, I was like 2013 I want to say so it's been several years ago, but the girls that I served with that year are actually some of my best friends this day, and I don't know that we ever would have crossed paths otherwise, but to get in a room with other high achievers that have similar interests, that is actually that is worth it, in my eyes, even if you don't take home the actual crown. So it's fun, and I love it, and it just seems like a really good fit, and I'm glad that they don't put age limits on it across the board, because I'm married now, I'm I'm definitely older than, you know, winning as a teenager or even early 20s. So it's fun to get to do it at this stage. And I actually think it's more beneficial, because they have a lot more to say now and have a lot more lessons and that I've learned a little bit more perspective and just a an overall better package, I think, Michael Hingson  31:03 is there a lot of politics in those contests or or do you there is? Speaker 1  31:09 Yeah, yes, there definitely is. And it just depends, you know, what system and honestly, what year, and that's what drew me to barrel racing, because it's no one's opinion. It is against the clock. There's, there's not a lot of room for excuses. You're either the fastest that day or you're not. So I do love bear racing for that reason, but I also love what pageants bring. So I'm still active in both, but there are definite pros and cons. Michael Hingson  31:41 Do they measure the time in barrel racing? And she did us down to hundredths of a second with with all the movements of the animals. How do they measure the time so accurately? Speaker 1  31:52 Well, there's an electric eye that senses when the horse's nose crosses it, so that starts to clock digitally. So there is no room for error. So it used to be a flag, and a judge would stand at the line and try to accurately throw the flag down, and then the timer would stop by a secretary holding a clock in their hand. But the competition has just gotten so close that even to do that would be so inaccurate. So the electric eye is is awesome, and they've got so much technology now that they can even overlay your run with with the winner and see where they were faster. Maybe it's around the first world, maybe it's around second, and segment it down so you can break up, you know, your time to first, or your time to second, and see, you know, really, where you where you need to make improvements, or where you got beat, and it's ever so polite, I mean, just a little hesitation and you're out. Michael Hingson  32:47 Yeah, fascinating. It's, it's interesting. And I've never attended a rodeo. I know it's a lot more visual than probably typically I am used to, but it would be fun to, you know, to do it one of these days, so we'll have to come and watch you in Oklahoma. Speaker 1  33:04 Yeah, absolutely. And a lot of times the announcers do such a good job at explaining it, because they never know exactly what the crowd is. So they always do a good job of explaining exactly what's going on in the arena and like, what the penalties might be, or who this cowgirl is. That is enjoyable to listen to as well, cool. Michael Hingson  33:24 Well, so you, you are married. We, you talked a little bit about that, and your husband and you met in Afghanistan. Tell me about that. We did Speaker 1  33:34 romantic city of Bagram. There you are. Yeah, we, we both did the same job as contractors, but my husband was actually one of the guys who would be on the ground doing more of the hands on part of the operation, so it was cool to get to fly with him eventually, because he had, he had a lot to teach me, and I definitely became a student of his, and asked a lot of questions, and we really connected in in the sky, and with the platform that I was on, we would be up there for several hours, and that environment is secure, so you can't have you know your phone or music or movies or things like that, so you really just have your crew to talk to, and it was just him and I Really and we got to know each other for, you know, several months with no distractions of the civilian world, no, you know, makeup or horses or social media. So I just felt like our connection was so raw and honest that, you know, we just it was pretty simple. And the day that we met, we pretty much became best friends and inseparable system. So it's fun for him to get to come to Oklahoma and see a lot more about my background once we got out of Afghanistan. Jimmy definitely come from different different upbringings. He grew up in the city, and hadn't really been on a horse or even around horses until he met me, but. But now he, you know, he's got some booths and drop there. It's funny to see the the change. But yeah, we, we both bring different things to the table, but found a lot of similarities and ended up both really enjoying real estate. And now what we do full time is flip and renovate houses here in Oklahoma. So that's just very busy. Michael Hingson  35:22 How long have you been married? Speaker 1  35:24 We've been married for three years, and we've been flipping full time for one year. And I will say that if you are ever trying to test your marriage, just go ahead and buy a house together and see if you can renovate it, because it is a lot of collaboration and uncertainty and problem solving honestly at the end of the day, and a lot of hard work, but it's ended up bringing us a whole lot closer, because we've been able to see some of the fruits of our labor and make some really great deals happen. And we love it, just in that we can kind of control our schedule and get to be home all the time. So we're we're definitely going to keep going on the real estate path. Michael Hingson  36:06 My wife and I were married for 40 years before she passed in November of 2022 and we bought over our lifetime, several houses. We were pretty we were pretty aligned on all of that. And one of the things about Karen is that she was in a wheelchair her whole life, so a lot of what we did was based around either finding a house that we could modify to be accessible for her, or what we liked better was when we could find property and build a house. Because if you build a house, oh, okay, and you make the house accessible as you're building it. It doesn't cost anything to do that. You design in lower counters, you design wider doors, you design level entryways and so on. Whereas, if you buy a house and then you modify it, it costs hundreds of 1000s of dollars. But we had a couple of times where we knew we were going to be in an area where we couldn't find property to build a home, and when it came down to looking with real estate agents to find a home that we could modify, the problem is with some of them, if they just didn't get it, they took us to a house and we said, this is why this won't work. This is why that won't work. And then the next house they took us to was the same thing. And they said, Well, this is different. Well, no, it's not. It's the same thing. And so yeah, it does get to be a challenge come Speaker 1  37:34 by honestly, and it's such a big market, everybody's real to these days or knows somebody, but it is definitely a skill to to have a good realtor on your side and and we've definitely learned that through selling, selling different houses, because, yeah, lots of different ones, and definitely know how to appreciate a good one, Michael Hingson  37:54 yeah, and we were, you know, sometimes it took a little effort, but we were able to find good Realtors eventually, that we could, that we could work with. And then, you're right, they're such a blessing, we had to go through some bad one, not bad ones, but just lack of perceptive I won't say they're bad, because they probably did all right, but they they didn't get what we needed. But we learned a lot and and had a lot of fun. So we were pretty aligned on what we we needed in a house, because a lot of it was based on accessibility for Karen, because for me, it's not as magical kind of thing. But by the same token, we we learned a lot, and it worked well. But when we could build a house like this home I'm in now, we built in 2016 we moved down to Southern California in 2014 and lived in an apartment for almost two and a half years, and we were it wasn't overly accessible, but it was accessible enough for Karen to be able to do most things in it, but we were waiting to get a construction loan, and then we got it. And by June or July of 2016 they started building or working on the house. Maybe it was like May of 2016 and I remember one day, I think it was in July, we came over from the apartment, and we're watching as they put the big trusses up on the where the roof, for the roof, all the big beams and all that. We just kind of watched that for a while, but they did make it accessible, and that's what we needed, which was cool. Speaker 1  39:37 Well, good, yeah, that's such a feat to do all of that, and I've definitely gained some appreciation for contractors and people who work in the houses and on the houses, because it is such a fun experience for every homeowner, but to be new in it, there's just so much to learn. Yeah, it's a huge, huge world and a huge undertaking. Earn to build, for sure, but even to own a home and and it is fun and very rewarding when we get to, you know, make somebody's dream homes come to life, or to be able to do the deal with them and help them along their journey. And I think even if you're not, you know, innately interested in real estate, it is something that everybody should consider, because you do have to have some somewhere to live for your whole life. So to learn about it and to make a proactive decision, rather than kind of reactive, is is fun. And I like sharing our real estate journey with people from like rodeo world or the military world, because, you know, they end up, you know, thinking maybe this is something I'd like to do or learn more about, when initially they just probably thought, you know, I'll just rent and see how it goes. But there's a lot of value in buying early. And especially in the military, there's some cool programs that can really help, help the service members out and get into a house. Michael Hingson  40:56 Yeah, well, for you, being in the rodeo world, and I would think in the military and intelligence and so on, you have had a lot of issues dealing with pressure and identity and resilience and so on. What have you learned from these different kinds of environments that you've been in that really helps you do better at coping with pressure and being more resilient? Speaker 1  41:22 Well, the military is definitely a great teacher for a lot of those things. And that was kind of the first time that I had to ask myself, you know, who are you? Who are you without the military? And for a long time, I thought that was a barrel racer, until that was taken and then I was forced to look a little bit deeper and figure out, you know, what makes me happy, what makes me sick? What do I want with my life? Where would I like to live? Things like that? And I realized that a lot of it wasn't tangible. It's not necessarily the things that you have, but more than things you're surrounded with, and how you feel on a daily basis. And for me, it always ended up being with horses and connecting with animals and being out in nature and having a little bit of land and kind of getting away from the hustle and bustle of the city. But it took, you know, it took several years to learn that about myself and and I had to, you know, really see the world and try out a lot of different roles before I I kind of feel like I figured I figured myself out. I got to know myself a little bit better, but pivoting and getting that identity taken away from you that you you really just resonate with, like I'm a military member or I'm a professional cowgirl, to take that away can be life changing, and it can be very shocking for people emotionally, and lead to a lot of depression or questions and and the thing that the military, you know, teaches us all the time, and I didn't realize that without some reflection, but is is to shift flexibility. Is that the key to air power and something doesn't work out. That doesn't mean that you failed, and it doesn't mean that you need to quit. You just got to readjust, re attack, get a better plan and continue on. So I know the military teaches that without people realizing it, but it that is a lifelong skill, and it's a skill for people who aren't even in the military to take off on and to and to practice, because you can use it so many times throughout your life, and it's in different scenarios too, but, but for me, the the craziest thing ever was to think that I'm no longer in the military, or I'm no longer a barrel racer, and to ask just who are you? Who are you really? What makes you happy? Have you Michael Hingson  43:41 ever had a time where you kind of really hit rock bottom and what did, how did that all go? Speaker 1  43:46 Yeah, yes, I definitely have, and I go into a lot of detail about it in my first book, but it was, you know, when I ended up quitting the military or getting out to pursue pro radio I thought that was my fairy tale ending. I thought that was my Cinderella story. I thought that, you know, this was the time that I was going to make it, but instead, I ended up spending all of my money over leveraging my assets and totally going broke, and my horse ended up getting hurt. So it was, to me, it was devastating in a lot of ways, and I felt like I didn't have any options. And you know, when that state is so hard to see past this year or this hurdle or this, you know, difficulty, but what I did was to go back to Afghanistan, to go back to the work that I know that I was good at, that actually does pay and give it all up. I basically had to strip away everything that I loved about my life and kind of start over. And the the main thing that helped me was that stability of a long term job where, you know, in the military, they. Take a lot of care of you. They give you a bed, they give you food, they give you a job and a paycheck. And it might not be the most glamorous or most fun thing, and there's, you know, there's definitely some sacrifice that goes into deploying long term. I think I was there initially for about a year, and that was really hard for me to do, but it gave me that stability and the time and the space to just start over and think about what, what exactly I wanted to do with my life and where we could go from here. And I felt like I truly, you know, was at my lost bottom. I felt like I didn't have a purpose anymore or or anything to strive for. But that wasn't the case at all. And so it was a good experience looking back. What do you want to go through again? And I would hope you know, others can pick themselves up quicker than I was able to. But yeah, that's a definite lesson that I wanted to share with others. And I know a lot of people feel that to some degree when they go through major life changes, and that's a lot of about what my book is based on, and definitely the first one that is titled not enough, or just that feeling that you failed and that you're not good enough, when maybe you know your whole world is is crumbling, but, but there is a way forward. There is a path, and there's different tools you can use and you can get back up again, Michael Hingson  46:25 but you talk about not enough a lot. Where did that belief first show up in your life? Speaker 1  46:32 Well, I think it was ingrained, honestly, at an early age, and maybe people don't realize it, but the feelings of lack and obscurity, you know, you pick up throughout your lifetime. And for me, it just be, got became too heavy to even hold, and I just completely broke down. But I think that you know, whether it's a teacher that tells you, you know you're not, you're not a smart kid. You know, spelling isn't your thing, math isn't your thing. They kind of plant these little seeds of doubt along our lives. And maybe it's a parent, or maybe it's a friend or, you know, a lot of people go through a lot of trauma when they break up with a loved one or a partner, especially for the first time, and they start to maybe believe those things that they're being told, or they let the doubt get louder than their self confidence and their self worth and and for me, it it just slowly chipped away little by little until it just was all that I knew, and I ended up just totally believing that, yeah, I don't. I don't deserve to be out rodeoing. I I don't have any worth. There's nothing that I bring to the table, you know, I just completely shut down and felt just totally not enough and and that's not the case. And even if you feel like that, you know, there, the sun will shine again if you allow it. And it's a mental cage that I think we build for ourselves, but just kind of facing that and realizing, well, you're not alone in those thoughts, and that even some of the great, even some of the best athletes you'll ever follow, or some of the people on social media will just look like they have it all together, that their life is perfect. You know, we all have our ups and downs, and we all have battles and struggles, and not everybody shows that, and that's kind of the thing I didn't realize when I had first gotten to that place, is that I thought maybe I was alone or my story was somehow the worst. And that's totally not the case. And there's different things you can do to kind of pull yourself out of that mental state, but but definitely being open to learning from others, and collaborating and honestly giving back. And those are some of the things that I that I talk about in my book, that that helped me, but I maybe didn't realize it at the time, but looking back now, I can definitely say point to a couple of different things, but that definitely Michael Hingson  48:58 helped to turn it around. Yep, yeah. So you said your first book. Have you written other books since Speaker 1  49:07 I have. I've actually written four, and part of the reason I wrote four was because I was writing for several years. I think it was seven years ago that I had the concept for the book, and I wanted it to be a four part book, but it just got so big that it turned into four different books. So the first one is not enough. Had enough, am enough, and then never enough was the last one. And they all kind of talk about different different things, but the central theme is similar throughout all of them. So you can definitely enjoy each book individually, but it is more fun, I think, to read the series, and I really do think they get better as I go. I'm excited for the first one, but I'm the most excited for the last one, and they are all written, and I plan to release them one month. In between. So I just want to get it out into the world and get it off my desk, because it's been here for seven years. Michael Hingson  50:06 So not enough is released. Speaker 1  50:09 It will be released April 23 and then a month after that will be the second, and then a month, and then another month, and then they'll all be out. Wow. Michael Hingson  50:18 Well, congratulations. Are you self publishing, or are you self publishing? Or do you have a publisher? Speaker 1  50:25 I'm doing a hybrid publish, okay? And I looked at a couple different options. I wasn't sure which way to go, and it's certainly overwhelming as the first time author, but I thought, you know, I definitely could use some help as far as the admin side goes, or future, everything's set up correctly, but I know I do have an audience that wants to hear my story and maybe wonders where I went, as far as Pro rodeoing, or what happened to my horse, really, when he got hurt. And hopefully picked up a few new listeners too that haven't been with me as long. But yeah, think that that it'll be a good combo to just do a hybrid model. Michael Hingson  51:06 So how is your horse? Speaker 1  51:09 Well, I still have him. That was one of the things that I refused to do, was basically sell out, even though, you know, I had, I had trained him. He was worth a lot at the height of his career, and I turned down a lot of money for him just because I feel like I owe him my my life, my career, and a lot of my happiness. So he will always have a place in my pasture, but he will never probably be sound enough to run consistently again. He had a what's called navicular and easiest way to describe that is basically the really small bone in his foot. Kind of looks like Swiss cheese. And on the edges of the bone, it kind of sticks out, and the more that he uses it, it kind of severs a really important tendon in his leg, so as he runs more or strains himself too hard to get sore, and so he's just gonna stay at my house and ease around, eat a lot of hay, keep the others alive. Michael Hingson  52:10 Do you ride him every so often? Speaker 1  52:12 I don't, just because I don't want to put any pressure. Yeah. Pressure on his foot. Yeah? But I do what's called Liberty with him. So it's where he doesn't have any halter or saddle or anything on, and I'm also on the ground, and we just work together. You take a walk around, and as fast as he would want to go, yep, take a walk. Yeah. Injury is kind of in his front feet. He likes to come up off the ground. So I'm working on teaching him to rare up. Michael Hingson  52:45 Well, there you go. That's that's cool. How many horses do you have? 52:50 I have five with one on the way. Michael Hingson  52:53 Well, there you go. Now, is your husband in the rodeo circuit as well? Speaker 1  52:58 Anywhere? Definitely not okay to ride, if he can help it, but he is really handy, and can do everything that I would need to take care of him, but he prefers to be inside a car with a lot more horsepower. Michael Hingson  53:17 Um, well, maybe you'll still convert convert him at some point to be a little bit more horse oriented. Yeah. Well, you see, you say that most people tend to operate from the wrong identity. What do you mean by that? And how did you shift out of it, whatever it is? Speaker 1  53:35 Well, I think growing up, you get this idea of who you are and associate it with a label, and for most people, it's what their profession is. And so it's really jarring when you take that away and just operating from a place of tangible assets or a job that you do that actually isn't who you are, it is what you do, but to look a little bit deeper and figure out what makes you you is kind of the theme of the identity first framework. And I think that you know it becomes evident later on in life if you if you try to figure that out. But I think a lot of people are unhappy, and they realize that maybe in a job that they don't like and they realize they've done it for 20 years. Or, you know, they they wake up with a partner that isn't serving them, or they're just unhappy. And I think a lot of it has to do with their identity and realizing that they are enough. You know, in this job without, this job, with this partner or without, and the thing that makes you you actually can't be taken away only if you let it. And it's just building that mental you know, resilience and confidence to understand that no matter what setback you're looking at, you can rise again, because nobody is going to define you by some. Seems silly, like a like a job or even a title beside your name. You're much more than that, much deeper than that. And the passion the things that make you happy, taste those things and figure out a way to put those in your life consistently and to progress towards those things, is what I've found makes me the most fulfilled in my day to day. Michael Hingson  55:22 You've talked about coaching and mentoring, and you clearly value that. Why is trying to do stuff alone not a good idea? Speaker 1  55:33 Well, you don't have to spend so much time figuring things out the hard way. You can actually just find somebody who's been down that path before and take their advice and go where they where they point you. And I think it's really undervalued, but the people who aren't quite there yet, but they're a few steps ahead of where you are, those are the most valuable teachers to me, because they remember that struggle that you're experiencing, you know right now, they remember what it's like, and they have that next step, or however they figured it out, they've got it in their back pocket now, and it's not, it's not really something that that you need to pay for. There's a lot of mentors that are in your community or in your network, or they should be that you can reach out to. And I think a lot of people you know, when they're not taught to be a coach, they don't feel like they should be and but I've found so much value in giving back when I'm not the expert yet, but I can tell you how I've gotten to where I am, because I just loved it and and those are the people that I want to encourage to reach back and to mentor and to help. And I've found it very fulfilling to be able to help somebody else. It's not too much skin off my back to help you out, because I I know how to do it, but it can make a world of difference for somebody who's struggling, or somebody who wants to get where you are, and I think we're oftentimes too humble to think that. You know people do look up to you, even if you haven't made it yet, even if you're not entirely where you want to be. There are people who look to you as someone they want to be like and to reach back for them and send the elevator back down. That makes life so much more fulfilling. Michael Hingson  57:22 Well, so you you do real estate, you flip houses and so on. Do you also coach? Can people hire you as a coach? Speaker 1  57:30 Well, I'm working on building my coaching leg of my website. I do have some coaching options more in the horse space, but my husband and I have learned so much about real estate that we are always available through, you know, email or DM. We don't have an official program yet, but we would like to move towards that. But we are absolutely involved in different coaching programs in real estate. If you're interested at all, we can show you where, where we've learned, and you can also just reach out to us for some tips and tricks too. We'd love to connect. We'd love to help, help you. If you're interested in some of the same things that we are doing. Michael Hingson  58:07 Me, I'll be interested when I find out that your husband rides a horse and is in the rodeo business. Speaker 1  58:14 You made me wait in a while. I don't know if I know. I know, yeah, funny that the last time you rode a horse, I was busy trying to take a picture of him, and his horse ended up laying down in a lake. I could have seen it coming if I was paying better attention, but I was trying to take his picture so he had a couple boots full of water and a ruined cell phone. So I don't know if we're going to get it back on anytime soon, but I promise to pay better attention of the day. Michael Hingson  58:45 Stay away from the water. It's one effort. What do you say to people who say, Well, I'm too old to change direction and do things differently? Speaker 1  58:58 Well, I would say that's a really poor attitude, because there's so many examples around us of people who have succeeded when they only started at 45 or, you know, 60. And it just depends what industry you're in as to who you can can look to to be an example. But even if you don't have an example, why not you? And I think the biggest key to success is putting the right people and mentors in place to ensure that the path you're on is correct and kind of help you over some of those hurdles. But no matter what it is you you're still able to pivot and go in that direction and find a way to make it a part of your life, even if that might have to change just a little bit, like in the rodeo world, you can, you can still have horses. So you're, you're super old, like, I think the oldest gal to make it to the finals was 62 or 64 so don't be intimidated. There's always somebody a little bit older and a little bit busier. Than you that's making it happen. So don't be afraid to think you know, why not you and just go after, go after the dreams. Because if you don't even try, you're definitely not going to get there. I think you'll find along the way that the progress you're going to make and the friends you make along that journey is actually what you're after anyway, not necessarily the goal of the buckle or winning the rodeo, but to train a great horse or to meet some people along the way that you're gonna be lifelong friends with, that's the that's the stuff that I'm that I'm chasing. And I definitely have realized that over the last couple years, well, Michael Hingson  1:00:35 if somebody says to you, I really just feel stuck or I'm behind, what would you advise them to do. It sort of relates to what you just said, but still fair question to ask. Speaker 1  1:00:46 Yeah, I would say you've got to change your state, and that may look different, just depending on the person, but if you can get in an environment where you feel a little bit more empowered, you feel a little more optimistic, then you can start finding the answers for yourself. And it may be to go to a seminar to you know, go to a meetup, get around other high achievers that are doing what you want to do, or it may just be calling a friend who's uplifting, who asks you the right questions and provokes you to really explore a little bit deeper in your mind as to, what is it that is causing you to shut down, like, what is it truly? What are you afraid of? Is it, you know, judgment by others? Is that why you don't want to try or or, what are you what are you truly scared of? And to face that head on, and to put a name on it, a lot of times, you realize it's not so scary and not the end all, be all, and to just kind of work, work through it one day at a time, just don't, don't expect to go zero to 100 overnight. There's a lot to be said for showing up consistently and just making incremental progress over time. A lot of people are so impatient and they want it all right now, or they're comparing their year one to somebody else's year 20. But just realizing, you know, in the beginning you're you're not going to be very good at whatever it is, and that's expected, that's okay, but just showing up every day for several years, you're going to pass a lot of people, because there's just so much impatience these days, the way the internet, you know, advertises and hustle culture we've got, I think there's a lot of under appreciation for commitment and hard work and just putting in the time, Michael Hingson  1:02:41 if people want to reach out to you, how can they do that? Speaker 1  1:02:46 You can find me on any platform by just clicking my full name, Jenna Renee Soto, and that's my email as well. Jenna Renee Soto, at Gmail and also my website, just to play safe. Michael Hingson  1:02:59 Can you spell all that? Jenna Renee Speaker 1  1:03:00 Soto, sure it's j, e n, n, a Renee R, E N, E, Soto, s, O, P, O, okay. Michael Hingson  1:03:11 So Jenna Renee [email protected] or on any of the platforms like LinkedIn and and so on, yep. Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. We've been doing this for over an hour. Can you believe it? Speaker 1  1:03:25 Oh, excellent. No. That actually flew by. Michael Hingson  1:03:28 It did well. I want to thank you, and I want to thank all of you for being out there and listening and watching the podcast. Love to hear from you. Please feel free to email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com, that's S, P, E, A, K, E, R, at, m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com, love it. If you give us a review, please review the podcast. People who might be interested in checking out the podcast always love to see reviews. And for all of you, Jenna, including you, if you can think of anyone else who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. I'd love it if you'd introduce us. And for all of you, please feel free to do that. We're always looking for folks, but but Jenna, I want to thank you again. This has been absolutely wonderful. Thank you for being here. Speaker 1  1:04:15 Thank you, Michael. It was an honor to be on and it's so fun to get to chat with you. You Michael Hingson  1:04:23 Steve, thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity. And confidence, be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset you.

What does it really mean to lead without power but still make an impact? I had the chance to speak with Prince Gharios el Chemor, whose life blends royal history, humanitarian work, and a deep commitment to compassion and critical thinking. From his family’s legacy in the Middle East to his upbringing in Brazil, Gharios shares how identity, purpose, and service shaped his path. As our conversation unfolds, you will hear how sovereignty today is less about ruling and more about responsibility. We explore education reform, the dangers of social division, and why compassion and critical thinking matter more than ever. Gharios also introduces his vision for the future through Logos One, a new education model designed to help people live with purpose. I believe you will find this episode both thought provoking and inspiring as you consider what it means to truly live with an Unstoppable Mindset. Highlights: 00:01:15 – Hear why titles mean nothing without purpose and service00:08:26 – Learn how identity and adversity shape a global perspective00:24:43 – Understand what sovereignty means in today’s world beyond power00:36:43 – Discover how small acts of service can deeply impact lives00:43:31 – Learn why compassion and critical thinking are missing today01:02:04 – Understand what it truly means to live with an unstoppable mindset Bottom of Form About the Guest: HRH Prince Gharios El Chemor of Ghassan is a diplomat, author, artist, and leader recognized internationally as the heir of the Ghassanid Dynasty, the Christian Arab royal house that once ruled much of the Levant. He’s a multi-awarded humanitarian on four continents for his work in cultural preservation and minority rights. He played a central role in restoring the House’s historical continuity and securing its recognition under international law, including The special consultative status at the United Nations. He was knighted under the authority of the late Pope Francis, holds the U.S. Presidential Lifetime Achievement Award, multiple Congressional honors, and has been welcomed by heads of state, religious leaders, and academic institutions across four continents for his advocacy on behalf of persecuted Christian communities in the Middle East. Beyond diplomacy, Prince Gharios is an award-winning best-selling author of thirty-seven books spanning philosophy, international law, spirituality, governance systems, and martial arts. In 2014, he published the peer-reviewed Middle East: The Secret History, a groundbreaking work that earned him the 21st International Cultural Award Trentino–Abruzzo–Alto Adige (awarded by the Italian government) in the History category. Seven of his works reached number one on Amazon’s bestseller list.   Since several of his titles achieved #1 across multiple categories, this actually represents thirteen #1 Best-Seller achievements overall.   His intellectual work includes the development of Skeptical Mysticism, the Law of the Triple Accord, and Neo-Holism, a framework that integrates reason, compassion, and systemic balance to address political and social crises. His works — including The Sovereign Perspective, Essentia, Sapientia, and Unitas — propose an integrated understanding of consciousness, ethics, and identity, bridging ancient wisdom traditions with contemporary science. Trained in acting and filmmaking, as well as holding a master certification in Aikido from the Aikikai Foundation in Japan, Prince Gharios embodies a rare synthesis of scholarship and lived experience. His humanitarian initiatives have provided food, education, and stability to thousands of displaced families throughout the Middle East. Whether in academic forums, interfaith dialogues, or grassroots relief missions, his message remains consistent: the future of humanity depends on restoring proportion, dignity, and truth — both within individuals and the societies they shape. Ways to connect with Prince Gharios: Website: www.PrinceGharios.org/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/gharioselchemor/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/officialprincegharios/ Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@theroyalherald/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hrhprincegharios X: https://www.x.com/princegharios?lang=en TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@officialprincegharios Documentaries: The Christian Kings of the Middle East https://youtu.be/Xt5NBNGa0q8 The Royal Legacy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUAS2rq8Bt0\&t=150s The Project https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TFkZk3qd3c\&t=416s About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Greetings everyone and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. It is fall in Victorville, California, and I guess in the whole northern hemisphere for that matter. So here we are once again, and we're going to have, I think, an interesting and a fun and a very thought provoking episode today, we get to chat with someone whom I never thought I would meet, but I got to meet him on LinkedIn, and then we've met in person, and now we're chatting. And he is a Prince, Prince Gharios el Chemor Chemor. And garrios lives in Los Angeles now, and that's an interesting story in of itself. He has written 37 books more than I've written, I can tell you. And he is involved with a lot of different kinds of activities, and I'm sure that he's going to talk about a lot of those and give us some interesting things to think about. So I'm just going to say, Gharios, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Unless you want me to call you Prince, I'm either, either way. Prince Gharios el Chemor  02:04 Oh, thank you so much. It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. And I always say that the only person I demand to call me your highness is my wife. But every time I do, she laughs on my face, so I'm thinking about stopping it. Yeah, and what does she call you? She called me Gary. I became Gary. Michael Hingson  02:23 You became Gary? Prince Gharios el Chemor  02:24 Yeah, because my wife is American, so well. Michael Hingson  02:28 But do you call her princess? No, no, oh, okay, you can Prince Gharios el Chemor  02:34 call me any way you want. I'm like, I'm not special, yeah, and I, you know, as I always like to say, you know, a title in a 21st Century from a deposed dynasty is absolutely useless as a as a person of honor, unless you know, you have, like a work like we do, like my family kept this tradition because we have a humanitarian work with the UN we can talk more about that later. But as I always say, princes are not making even street names these days anymore, so I still have to pay for Netflix like everybody else, Michael Hingson  03:18 yeah, but I'll bet you think of your wife as a princess, whether you call her that or not, because, Speaker 1  03:22 oh, she's, she's a queen. She's not Michael Hingson  03:25 even a prince. There you go. See now we're talking Yeah, as it should be. Well, yeah. So I let's start with this whole issue of a deposed dynasty, and little bit about, maybe your background, where you came from, and all that, and we'll go from there, sure. Prince Gharios el Chemor  03:47 Well, there's a, there's a some people are a little bit, you know, as, as Voltaire used to say, Napoleon, also, Churchill, History is written by the victors. So especially in the United States, people don't are not very aware of world history. So is people don't understand how some things work. And even in the Middle East, whereby my family originated. I'm European, from my mother's side, and I have a little like 3% Jewish. I'm British, French, Italian, and in from my father's side, I'm Christian, Arab, from where today is Lebanon. You're a Michael Hingson  04:40 conglomerate all over the place, Prince Gharios el Chemor  04:43 yeah, so I have all the all the conflicts, all the colonizers, the people that are colonized, all within an only person. I'm the, I'm the living un so, but I. Even in the Middle East, you know, because since we are like a Christian family, a Christian dynasty, even that history was, you know, political propaganda. So you're not going to promote your your enemies. So since the Muslim regimes took over our lands through history, so the story they tell is a very limited history. So in a lot of history books, people think that our rule ended in the seventh century. So people say, Well, how come you are claiming a kingdom that ended 14 centuries ago? And I always say, well, first and foremost, we rule other realms after that, even our cousins ruled until 1921, so the like 100 years ago in what today is hail in Saudi Arabia, is called Jabal shumar, Jabal shmor, which is our last name. So they were our Muslim cousins, because some part of the family was forced to convert and but and the family that escaped and went where today is Lebanon kept being Christian, which is my direct family, and the Christian branch rule until 1747, to the 18th century. So it's not like 14 centuries ago. But even if that was the case, according to international law, we have a president, which is Israel. So Israel revived a state that, you know, they didn't hold sovereignty for over 2000 years. So our claim, even if we considered the last kingdom, we have a whole kingdom, because we rule principalities up to that. We rule the Byzantine Empire too, but that was very briefly, but we had like principalities or Sheik dooms, as we call the very same politically, political unit as you have the UAE, as you have Bahrain, as you have Qatar, Kuwait. So is a is as sovereign as an empire, but is a small principality, so that those are the kinds of realms we ruled after we lost the main kingdom in the seventh century, but we we rule, as I said, my direct, direct family into the 18th century, and my cousins until 1921 so yeah, so it's A our claim. Theoretically, if you consider Israel legitimate, you have to consider our claim legitimate, although we don't actively pursue any kind of political restoration or active, you know, restoration of a territory, kingdom, or anything. On the contrary, we support all the duly established governments, the euro and de facto, because we think that there's a lot of people there wanting power, and we don't want to be another force to try to fight for power or anything like that. On the contrary, we want to help to bring balance. We want to serve. We want to help to bring, you know, a stability and dignity to the people we're not interested in political movements or topple any governments or anything like that, although I've been offered many, many times, and thank God, I'm not at all seduced by power, because I it's something that is an illusion, in my opinion. Michael Hingson  09:08 So the family has certainly been spread out. Where were you born? Prince Gharios el Chemor  09:14 Well, I was born and raised in Brazil, because we have, still some family members were able to stay in Lebanon, but there was a huge famine and persecution after my family lost the principality in scarta ze way, which is in the northern Lebanon, My great great great great, great grandfather was assassinated, and then his son had to flee and like, adopt different last names for their children, because the it's funny, because it could be a great movie, because the Sultan, Ottoman Sultan was a hunchback, so it was a perfect. Villain, so the hunchback Sultan wanted to kill all the members of my family, so they were able to hide for some time, but then, when the first war, already in the end of the 18th century, 19th century, it was a great don't know if I can use the word genocide, but it was a genocide of Christians because the Druze, they ally with the Ottomans and to destroy the Christians. And so started this movement in the mid 1800s until the culmination of the First World War, and then my family members and many Lebanese not just my family members, went to Brazil because Brazil is still the largest Catholic country in the world. So today you have in Brazil twice the number of Lebanese people. Then you have in Lebanon. You have around 4 million in Lebanon. You have over 8 million Lebanese in Brazil. And I made fun when I first met the Lebanese president, we had the first audience in 2017 I we just had a Lebanese descendant president in Brazil. So I said, Well, you know, the our Lebanese president has like, twice the number of Lebanese people than than here. So Isn't that ironic and funny? What did he say? No, he was laughing. He said, Yeah, you know. And it was funny because he was actually, his name was Michelle Temer. It was from Lebanese descent. And you have today, I think the Minister of Economy in Brazil is Haddad, which is also Lebanese. Yeah. So everyone has an uncle, a cousin, even in my family, we have a very funny situation, because half of the family of my cousins stayed in Lebanon, and the other half went to Brazil. So you had two brothers from the same father that one doesn't speak Arabic or French and the other doesn't speak Portuguese. So they used to visit each other with their kids and using like cell phones and other things because they they were like brothers and couldn't communicate, because one was born and raised in Brazil, and the other, and still today, like My Arabic is a joke and my cousins make fun of me, so we talk in English, because My Arabic is the Arabic of the 19th century. And again, my grandfather never used the word Lebanon, because there was no Lebanon when he left. Lebanon was created in 1946 so I think it's very interesting when a lot of people say about Palestine, oh, there's no Palestine. There was never a state called Palestine. Well, there's never a state called Lebanon, another state called Syria, and every state called Iraq, another state, any of the states that we have today, the Middle East, they're all created after the first war. So they're all creations by the British and the French. And also, a lot of people don't know that. Michael Hingson  13:34 So what was it like for you growing up? Because however you view it, you have a very rich family and rich ancestry. So what was it like for you growing up? Prince Gharios el Chemor  13:47 Well, it was very interesting because I I had a Lebanese grandmother and I had an Italian grandmother, so that's why I became fat. Thank God now I'm I lost weight, but yeah, I it was funny, because I inherited gout, so I was very sick with gout when I was, like, 27 years old, and I had to take cortisone. And I always tell the story, because I used to go to my Italian grandmother, she looked at me and say, My god, you're so fat. You're so terribly fat. You have to do something about that. But not today. Now eat so. So she was like, you know, I could always start I should always start a diet the next day that I visited her, because when I visited her, I had to eat. So that's how that's that how the dynamic works. But I had a very normal, let's say, upper middle class for. Upbringing, yeah, upbringing. But the thing is, because my father, when my grandfather, arrived in Brazil with his parents, he had, they had nothing. They had they escaped. They had to sell the marble from the palace. We had to bribe the Ottoman soldiers so they were able to escape. So they had, like they grabbed some jewelry and something. So they started from zero in Brazil, but then my grandfather in many Lebanese families started selling things door to door, and they made a fortune. My grandfather made a huge fortune. He had like medication distribution. He represented many laboratories for southern Brazil. And then he had real estate. He became very rich, and my father and my father was born, my grandfather was already very rich, so he had like a playboy upbringing, different than me. And then my father never worked one day in his life. So when I came, my family said, Well, let's not repeat the same mistake that, you know, we made with him. So let's, you know, ration things with him. So I started, well, I started working because I wanted but I started working, working it with 13 years old, and I always I cannot not work because I have a we talk about that I have a cognitive difference than regular people, what People call romantically gifted, which is a very is not as romantic and beautiful as people think is like, is like OCD or something like that, and hyper sensibility and stuff. So I always, I cannot not study something. I cannot not work. So is an obsession that I have. So that's why I wrote so many books. I've done so many things. Michael Hingson  17:24 So what was your job? What kind of work did you do? At 13 Prince Gharios el Chemor  17:29 I worked in a video store, like, like Blockbuster, but was like a small one, because I watched all the movies. So people love to see me recommending the movies and Yeah, and so I always work like, I was like, 1516 I was the marketing director of a magazine, so I was always like, precautious, let's Say, and yeah. So my life was always very normal. I was always blessed. Thank God. I never had any need like I I had. I suffered a lot. I was bullied and I had a because I was different. So people, you know, they because of the way I talked in school, and I was probably the worst soccer player that have ever lived. And so in Brazil, that's the thing. So I was highly bullied. I and but other than that, and of course, because I'm an empath, so, but I never had any, let's say, need of food or anything like that, like I always had a very blessed life. Michael Hingson  19:06 So you went to school in Israel and so on. Did you do college there? Or what did you do for college? Or did you in Brazil? Prince Gharios el Chemor  19:13 Well, I studied two things in Brazil. I studied in a Franciscan school, the regular school, and then for high school, there is a special course in Brazil which is the equivalent of the university for theater, like Dramatic Arts. So I've done that. And then for college, I've done a course that's called Marketing and PR. So I have this two, this two trainings, one in dramatic arts and the other one in a corporate PR. Actually, my course even taught propaganda. So we studied a lot of how states work with Prop. Ghana and things like that, Michael Hingson  20:03 two significantly different departments of study. How did you how did you combine those? Or, how did you justify having two different things, art and marketing, that's pretty different? Prince Gharios el Chemor  20:18 Well, not to me, because I always worked a lot with media. So I'm also a filmmaker and professional actor, a SAG actor. So I'm sag here, and I'm in Brazil. It's called sated. Is the sag equivalent there? I directed a lot of even some commercials and some shows. So to me, that's very they intersect and and I have this artistic side of me that is very obsessive too. So I always have to be painting. I always have to be singing and doing something creative, because that's, that's who I am. And some people don't understand, but people that actually I'm not again, I'm not claiming i i have any special talent or anything like that. I think there are people that think better than me, people that sing better than me, but people that have this, let's say, gift, they, they have a need of putting out their work is not, oh, I skewed to paint or skewed to sing or no, this is the need that you have to manifest this energy that you have inside of you. So I give you an example when when I had had the first flare of gout was because my first wife said that I could no longer paint because of the smell of the oil paint. So I stopped painting. And then I was like, full time, the time, the full free time I had I was exercising and I was swimming, I was I wasn't my the prime, healthy body I could ever had. I had that time, and then I start feeling this small pain, and I it became, what's the what's the term I psychologically, I don't remember now the term, but it became a disease because of I could not channel that energy, psychosomatic, exactly so, because I could not channel that energy for painting. Then I got the gout. Michael Hingson  23:06 So how long was it before you could go back to painting? Prince Gharios el Chemor  23:11 Well, then I discovered that I could. I created a technique that I can make the acrylic paint look as almost as good as the oil and and with significant less smell and mess. So I've been painting with acrylic since then. Michael Hingson  23:36 And you what happened to the gout? Did it basically go away? Prince Gharios el Chemor  23:41 Well, I got significantly bad, and I had to go and have a bariatric surgery, and because I was taking cortisone, like a heroin addict would take heroin. So because I got in this vicious circle of not being able to exercise, gaining weight, eating, being depressed. So I had, almost every two weeks, I have a very bad flare. So I was like, in the beginning, I would go to the doctor for the injections, then my grandfather would come in and give me the injections. And then I learned myself to give myself the injections. They were so frequent that I had to do it myself. But thank God for the past, let's say 18 years, I had probably a couple of flares. They're very mild, and just with oral medication, I was able to I'm cortisone free for like, Michael Hingson  24:44 18 years. That's great, yeah, well, you know, going back to some of the things we talked about earlier, in terms of you, you still identify. With the Royal House that that has not been directly in power, although I I would suspect you'd say that that you and your family do provide influence. But what does sovereignty mean to you in the 21st Century? Basically, when monarchy no longer rules, clearly, you have influence and so on. But what does sovereignty mean to you? Prince Gharios el Chemor  25:28 Yeah, there's there's another thing that people, people don't understand. I'll give you a very, very simple example about my family. My family, even though is not officially sovereign anymore, but my family in Lebanon, they still have a palace in a city called farhatta in northern Lebanon, and non stop be we've been serving the community to the point that when my my predecessor, which was Sheik Antonio's Ashmore, was alive, he passed, unfortunately, prematurely. He was 60 years old in 1970 122, years before I was born, and he would open the doors of the palace, and people go there and ask money for medication, as you know, to send the kids to school. He would, you know, help the community like a ruler would do so because, you know, Lebanon, back then was very poor country, and he was like very, very wealthy. So until today, his sons, my cousins, that are part of the Council of princes of the royal house of Ghassan. They still do that to the community there. So we it's like we never stop, you know, doing the the service that. So who wants to watch our documentary. They can Google it. We have it on YouTube. It's called the royal legacy and the Christian kingdom of the Middle East. You see that, for example, my family provided free water that are still being used by 200,000 people in northern Lebanon for free. So we give free water to 200,000 people 48 villages in Lebanon. So thanks to my family also, dialysis blood dialysis is free for all Lebanese citizens because my cousin bought some machines, and my cousin interact with the president, who was his personal friend back then. So the President made a decree, and today, until today, no one that needs dialysis has to pay so, but my cousin passed two years before I was born and his sons. His oldest son was 15, so he left a lot of businesses for his sons. So they didn't develop the Royal House to the point that in 2008 37 years later, I was the one that took over, and then I got permission from them also, which is, in Arab monarchies, you have something that called baya, so it's like the family agrees who's going to be the next head, the next leader, and they, they give the consent, because in Europe is the succession is primogeniture, like the oldest son or daughter inherits the position. But in the Arab systems is the best qualified person according to the Council of princes, or according to the will of the last hat. In my case, they are so busy. I always say I'm the poor cousin, because they're they're rich, they I'm the one that took over this responsibility, and I have the time. So that's how, how it's done. But sovereignty, as I always say, is is a word like peace and democracy that can mean anything and everything so but unfortunately, people don't understand what it means in international law, and today, according. According to the many conventions, or in the charter of United Nations, every single people has the right called the right of self determination. Is the is a cardinal right is every single people, and that doesn't depend on anything ever is like is a right that every single people have, so is in the 21st Century, is no longer acceptable to have colonialism. Prince Gharios el Chemor  30:32 So all all nations and all peoples have to have this right to to self determination, and I think that's unfortunately we've been having a sometimes that multilateralism and international law are not being very much respected, and we have to make sure that we we work together. Because a lot of people criticize United Nations, and I agree that maybe United Nations has a lot of things to improve, but so as everything else in mankind. So as I always say, when you your car has a flat tire, you don't throw away the car, you fix the tire. So I think it's a lot easier for us to fix the system we have, then get rid of it and go back to barbarism. Michael Hingson  31:26 So given given all of that, and given what your relatives are doing in Lebanon and so on, how do governments view your house and how do they view all of you today. Do they? Do you think there's opposition? Do they appreciate what you're doing, because you're not really trying to seek power as such? That probably helps some. But what? What do governments think of of you and all of you? Prince Gharios el Chemor  31:57 Yeah, well, some people the Lebanese Government, since the next president, we've been working together with them, because they seen the value that we bring. So during the covid through our one voice Foundation, we donated half a million dollars of baby formula. It's like 60 tons of baby formula and recently, amongst other small actions, but recently, this year, we we fed about 5000 people for a whole month. We thought it'd be 3000 but Caritas, which is the logistical organization for the Catholic Church, estimated in 5000 so it was like something around 1000 families, but for a whole month. So together with SOS world and giving hands Germany, we got together and Caritas, of course, which made a distribution so they're they are very like we just last Saturday, we had an intercultural, inter religious event under the patronage of The President General Joseph on so we've been working together with the government in Lebanon, because the President in Lebanon, people might not know, but the President has to be Christian. The Prime Minister has to be Sunni Muslim. The Speaker of the House must be Shia Muslim. Because, believe it or not, with all its problems. Lebanon is the only actual democracy in the Middle East, because all the 18 religions have the exact same rights according to the constitution. So but other regimes, for example, I love Jordan, and I've I lived in Jordan. I had a second residence in Jordan for two years, and we try to implement some educational projects there. Because I have, I have this, I even now have a name now. It's called the royal Gambit. It's, it's a project to prevent the radicalization of teenagers from radical organizations, and there's even a book about it that is also the royal Gambit, which is a better and cheaper way to fight terror than actually just try to fight the effects, not the the reasons, the sources of of the problem. And so I had some problems because of the fact that I'm Christian, because you know who the King Abdullah in Jordan is doing a great job. And the royal family in Jordan is amazing. And I had. Many, many friends from the royal family. But, you know, some people don't understand that, but who also has the power is not the ruler, but the person that put the paper in front of the ruler so the ruler can sign it. So sometimes the ruler has the best of the intentions, but a couple of people try to prevent that, because they don't want you to shine. And I found the same problem with the Catholic Church, too, unfortunately, and I'm Catholic, but a lot of things that I try to implement, and again, I just needed the stamp of the Catholic Church. I didn't ask for anything, and a lot of people, mostly lay men, seem to have the interest of the need to keep existing so they are relevant. And that's very sad. That's very sad because there's a lot of people that are have the best of intentions, that have a lot of holy men in the Catholic Church, like I give you Pope Francis, absolutely, but Cardinal Koch, which is a Swiss Cardinal, it's a dear friend and a great holy man. But you also have people that are not interested. Obviously, I'm not citing names, but people that just want to keep their positions, and they just want to the problems to still exist so they are relevant, because they are the ones giving aspirin to the terminal patient. Can I Oh, go ahead. No, no. Sorry. Michael Hingson  36:39 I was just gonna say, and sometimes you just have to walk very carefully with what you do because of that. Prince Gharios el Chemor  36:46 Oh yeah. I mean, I made a lot of people look bad, because in my ignorance, my naivete, I thought that okay, I have solutions for many problems, so let's solve the problems, right? Yeah. Why? Why should we keep suffering if we can actually solve the problems. But apparently, no they want to keep with the problem. Michael Hingson  37:07 So So you but you do a lot of work with persecuted Christian communities in the Middle East, and especially, you know, persecuted people. What's one moment or one person that really stands out to you from all of that work? Prince Gharios el Chemor  37:25 Well, I think that I have two moments, actually. One was in 2014 that I had this Egyptian boy I went to the school here in Los Angeles to talk about bully, because, as I said, I was bullied when I was a kid, and then this 10 year old boy asked to take a picture with me. He was Egyptian Copt. I have a very good relationship with the Copt Orthodox Church in I met with the Coptic Pope in in Cairo. So he he said, I want to take a picture with you, because you are my prince, because I'm also a Middle Eastern Christian. And that touched my heart. I had to hold very, very tired not to cry in front of him. And I said, Well, you know, if I can inspire one person, I'm happy, and the other person was in Jordan in 2016 because at the height of the Islamic State, this 40 families of Iraq, they escaped to Jordan, and they were being in the Melkite church in Jordan, took them in, and then they called me and said, we have this family. They have no food. They have nothing. They just arrived from Iraq. Said, okay, so I got my people there. We got food for this 40 families. And then I went there, and I met this old lady and and I immediately connect with her. And I said, are you okay? I said, Imagine this old lady having to skate from Iraq all the way here, you know, because they were just killing the Christians. It's ridiculous. And then she said, Yes, I'm fine. I'm being take good care and everything. But the problem is that I have to go because I have a high blood pressure problem. I have to go every day to the hospital, and then I have to stay there for I don't remember, she said, one hour waiting just to take her blood pressure twice a day. And then I said, Oh my God. I looked to my assistant and said, for the love of God, go to the nearest pharmacy and get her blood pressure machine. So. You went there, and, you know, sometimes is not, is not a money, you know, for, for, I don't know, 3050 bucks. I solved the problem and and then I gave it to her, and said, Okay, so from now on, this is for you, for you to take your blood pressure, but you also, if anyone needs you're going to be the guardian of this. So she was so happy. And again, is not just about the food, is not but about people. Must know that you care. I think that's the most important Michael Hingson  40:37 thing, yeah. But it's not about you. It's about it's about them, and the very fact that you do care, and you're not doing it to try to gain a lot of notoriety, is what I'm hearing you say. But rather, you're doing it because it's the right thing to do. Prince Gharios el Chemor  40:53 No, I have to correct you on this. I'm doing it because the feeling that you get. It's yeah. It's worth more than any money or any fame or anything, the feeling that that I got from it right? Knowing that I'm, I'm, I'm making that life a little better, yeah is better than anything I've ever tried. And that's what Michael Hingson  41:19 I'm that's what I'm saying. It's yeah, it's not about you're trying to become a big guy. No, you're doing it because it's the right thing to do and you want to help people, yeah. But I Prince Gharios el Chemor  41:30 get a lot from it too. Michael Hingson  41:33 Sure you do. Sure you do. Prince Gharios el Chemor  41:35 But to me, is, like, the feeling is, is, is amazing, Michael Hingson  41:39 sure, yeah, oh, I, I, I totally appreciate it, because it's the the way I feel. If I can inspire people, if I've been able to help one person, then I think I've done good, and I appreciate exactly what you're saying. Well, you, you work with a lot of different people. You work with presidents, billionaires, you work with scientists, priests, martial artists and so on. What have you learned about the universal desire under all of that? What do they all have in common? Prince Gharios el Chemor  42:14 Well, there is this beautiful poem that Elvis used to date when he he used to sing that song, welcome out of my shoes. And he used to say to every student that then shoot or saw things through his eyes, shouldn't watch it. Helpless. Hands well hard inside he dies. So help your brother along the way, no matter where it starts, because the same God that made you made him too, this man with broken hearts. So to me, I think it doesn't matter. That's another part of the poem that I don't remember. Like they may be kings, they might be beggars. We are all figuring things out. That, to me, is the most important thing we we have some might know a little better, some less better, but we are all figuring things out. Figuring things out. We are not special. We are special. We have a special thing about every single person we have. Every single person has something good and something special and some unique thing. But we are not better than anybody in terms of dignity and value. We are all the same, and we are all figuring things out. So when you see someone, you don't you don't know the battle that that's that person is going through. You don't know the suffering that that's that person is is going through. And that's why I say compassion is so important. We have to try to put ourselves in someone's place and and critical thinking and compassion, the two things that are missing in the Michael Hingson  44:04 world, in my opinion, yeah, tell me more about that. Yeah. Prince Gharios el Chemor  44:09 Well, we because of this, this thing called social media, which has great benefits too. We got together because of it, but unfortunately, give rise to some cognitive biases that we already have in one side and also gets us that that heard anonymity you know, when we are in a group or when we are Anonymous, we seem to do things that we wouldn't do otherwise if we were present and alone. There's a lot of psychological studies about it. So. We are living in times that we have this destructive zero sum division. And as I always say, is perfectly and healthy, perfectly fine and healthy to disagree, to have different opinions, as long as we are constructive about it. Let's say in politics. So you know, left and right and center is all fine if we think the way we want to think, as long as first, that idea comes from ourselves and not from some celebrity or politician that we like or dislike, but from our own critical thinking. And second, we have to realize that we're all on the same boat, a country, a state, a city is a community is a boat. So is, is not because you don't like the captain, that you're going to cheer for that boat to sink because you're going to die too. So we have to realize these things. We have to realize that we have to end this thing us against them in everything, in politics, in religion, in everything, because that's not going to get us anywhere. That's That's this destroying the critical thinking and destroying the compassion, and therefore everything become a zero sum, like you know, in order for me to succeed, you have to be destroyed, and that only leads to destruction. And unfortunately, social media is a catalyst to that. Michael Hingson  46:32 How do we do that? How do we we regain or get more compassion? How do we get people to think more critically and and, well, don't try to just do everything for themselves. Yeah, one thing Prince Gharios el Chemor  46:44 that people don't realize is that our brain was built, was hardwired to survive, not to be happy. So we evolved a lot technologically, but our brain is still from the caveman times in a and not just the brain like everything else, why we get gain weight? Because our body thinks we're still back in those times that we have food once a week, and then if we don't have food for many days. We have to storage the energy, otherwise we're going to die. So the same with something called tribalism. So we are trained, our mind is trained, to see everything that is different as as the enemy. So we have this natural neurological tendency of of of that. And then we have, of course, all the cognitive biases, and the greatest one is, as I always say, stupidity, which is not ignorance. We are all ignorant about something. It's impossible to know everything about everything. Stupidity is our resistance, emotional resistance to expertise and knowledge and education. So that's one of the main things, is laziness of thinking. So why would you lose time considering who God is, who's your relationship with the divine? If you can go once a week to a church, I don't see anything wrong in going to the church, please. But what I'm saying is some people go to the church because there they can get, like, a synthesized summary, and they just, it's easy, if they just take that and believe in that. Then they keep thinking the whole week about who God is, what's right and rights wrong, about religion and about ethics and moral and things like that. And the same with politics. Why should I try to understand politics? To try to understand what is a common good? If I can just look one politician that I like and just go for everything he says and and that's the problem. That's why in the social media, again, is a catalyst of that. Because you, you can be, you can insult, you can criticize you, you. We have another thing called the Dunning Kroger syndrome, which is, we think that the things that we know the least are we have. We have more security in the things that we know the least than the things that we actually know. Right? Yeah, so you put that, put it all together. We have confirmation biases because this algorithm in all social medias, they only bring you things that you to confirm what you already think. They realize what are your preferences, and then they just bring you the confirmation bias so you only hear one side of the story. Michael Hingson  49:59 How do we change. Change that mindset. Prince Gharios el Chemor  50:01 Oh, we have to. We have to break the cycle. We have to develop compassion. First. We have to to realize that that person might not look like you, might not like the same things as you, might not believe in the same things as you. But is a is is someone that you have to live with that person. You don't have to agree, but you have to live in the best possible way. Michael Hingson  50:26 But again, the issue is that there is a lot of that on it. I hear what you're saying, but how do we break that cycle? How do we change the mindset so that more people will start to learn that just because we're all different, it doesn't mean that we're all less capable or less than than ourselves. Prince Gharios el Chemor  50:47 Yeah, well, first we have to identify the stupidity. Where is this stupidity? Are we? Is a very hard process, but we have to see if our opinion is actually our own first and foremost, think, think yourself is your opinion is, I have an exercise for that which is a contemplation. So you try to, to meditate, uh, imagining a conflict that you have, and then you remember your own position in this conflict. Then you you go and you try to put yourself in the shoes of the person against you, why that person has those concepts, those ideas, those opinions. And then you try to go out and see both of you, and try to see without any dogs on the fight. You try to see the same, same conflict. You see it from at least three different perspectives. To understand it, Michael Hingson  51:52 we've got to start teaching those concepts to people, because all too many people have children. They don't bring them up any differently. They they don't, they don't look at a broader perspective and horizon. And that's and I hear that's what you're suggesting. But we've got to start. We've got to find ways to teach Prince Gharios el Chemor  52:10 that the best way is education. That's why I created logos, one which is a new educational system. Tell us about that? Yeah, well, because I was gifted, you know, a lot of gifted people have problems in school, because when you have like, a very deep giftness, you cannot conform with the with the system, with the mainstream system. So I can only thrive if I create my own systems. So that's why I developed a whole new system of philosophy, original. I completed Aristotle Plato's work. I refuted Machiavelli sprints. I completed some of Kant's works too, because I I have to create my own frameworks. And then I said, Well, you know, 95% of what I learned in school is useless. You're not going to never going to use it. You're never going to remember it. So why do you waste the most valuable asset we have, which is time. You know, not even Elon Musk can buy time, because time is nothing you can do to get more. So why do we basically throw away time in school in a time that we have our beautiful youth. And so why do we do that? And then I realized that, well, the actual things that you have, you really have to know you can learn in two years, which is basic math, basic history, language, you know, all these things in two years, you can learn that. So I created a system that is based on your vocation and your level. So since a child goes to goes to kindergarten, the child starts being tested by vocation and the level and everything. So this child is taken to there's one of 15 traits that can be combined to 30 point 5 billion different profiles. So today you go to school, you have only one profile. You have to follow that profile, right? So with my system, you can combine it and have 30 point 5 billion different profiles. So if you have more tendency to be an artist, you're going to be an artist. If you have a vocation and desire to be an engineer, you're going to put all your energy. All your all your time to do what you like, to do what you're born to do. I like to say that logos one was created for the child that they cannot stand still because they supposed to dance. So if you don't conform, if you don't sit still, if you don't do whatever the teacher tells you to do, you are a bad student. And that doesn't mean you're a bad student, because you're supposed to be the world's greatest dancer or the world's greatest painter, so or the world's greatest engineer if you are not good in sports. So the system we have now was created for the industrial revolution. So the world needed factory workers, people that conform and with AI, all bets are off. So my system integrates with AI, and it's self regulated and self improved by AI. So there's a book out also. It's called logos one, and that's the future of education. You're not going to be able to because, you know, we're going to have a huge change in professions. So probably the child that is in a first grade today, the profession of that child doesn't even exist yet. So I'm sure, because a lot of the depression and mental problems we have today and suffering that we have today in our society is because we have to work to make ends meet. We have to work to put food on a table, and that makes us work in things that are not very nice and are things that we are not happy to to work. And working is probably you spend most of your like life working, so you're going to be miserable if you are doing something you don't like or you're not born to do. So that's why we have all this, Prince Gharios el Chemor  57:11 this problems in the world. So with my system, people will be happy because they will be doing what they are meant to do they love to do. And they have, as I always say, we're going to have one Einstein in each corner, because we give the tools of this that person to be what that person was born to be. Michael Hingson  57:30 Has logos? One been implemented anywhere yet? Prince Gharios el Chemor  57:33 No, no. I would just formulated this year. I had this idea for 15, almost 20 years ago, and I finally put everything together. So now we are going out to get it to be implemented. Michael Hingson  57:49 You've written 37 books. Is there any kind of a common theme or thread that goes through all the books? Prince Gharios el Chemor  57:55 Yeah, actually, they're all part of the same ecosystem, let's say so, because I see everything is inter related. For example, I created a I formulated a universal law that's called the triple accord, which everything in the world is the result of a resonance between reason, empathy and compassion. So critical thinking, compassion and balance, measured by balance. So a government, a civilization, a relationship, a friendship, everything is measured by these three elements. So with that, I developed what's called New holism, which is a model of governance, a brand new, completely new system of political system, which I always say is not left, center, right is forward. And a new way of seeing politics, a new way of seeing transcending ideology. So the same thing with the skeptical mysticism, which is a brand new epistemology, brand new metaphysics, which finally got science and reason. I'm sorry, reason and faith together. I created a new it's called juice Vera, which is a new legal system and a new penal system. I created, as I said, the Royal Gambit. I create logos one and Magnus delta, which is the higher education continuation of logos one. I mean, everything I created, I wrote about, is either related to history, sovereignty, politics, philosophy, which to me, is everything together. And I also brought the. Eastern and Western philosophy together, because I studied a lot of Buddhism, Aikido, Japanese, Shinto, Zen, Buddhism. So I brought that with the Western philosophy. And so my system is a balance between both, because I found out that everything has to be in balance otherwise the system destroys itself. Michael Hingson  1:00:26 If you could transmit one sentence or say one thing to humanity that would be remembered in 200 years, what would it be? Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:00:36 Well, I always, I always think that. I think as James, James Sherman, that said that, and I always like to repeat it. It's we cannot go back and make a new start, but every moment we have the chance to make a new ending, it doesn't matter how old you are. Doesn't matter how you think your life is not good, but you can always make a new win. You can always change, even if it's so hard, you can always make it better. It's up to you, you know, Michael Hingson  1:01:16 and it really is. It is up to each of us, and if we want to make the world better place, we can do it, but it's up to us to do it, isn't it, Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:01:26 absolutely and remember that the person, not just a person, but all the animals, all the planes, all the environment, we are all part of the same. The Science already proven that we're all part we share the same frequency. So you know, tried everyone with kindness. There's another saying that says that kindness doesn't cost anything, and buys everything, buys you everything. So be kind to an animal, to a plant, be kind to a person. Be kind, be kind. Be kind, be kind. It's never going it's never too much, Michael Hingson  1:02:03 and be kind to yourself too. Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:02:05 Oh, absolutely. Yeah, that's the first person you have to love yourself before learning to love other other people. And again, back to what I said in the beginning. We're all figuring things out. Don't, don't feel bad because you are figuring things out. Because we are. All are in different levels, but we all are, yeah, Michael Hingson  1:02:23 well, this has absolutely been, I think, very thought provoking, and I think it's been been wonderful. Last question for you, how do you define unstoppable? What do you think unstoppable means? Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:02:38 Well, in my opinion, unstoppable is that that thing that makes you, that drive inside of you, that that you know, despite of everything, everything can go against you, but you still manage to, like Nelson Mandela said, something is impossible until it's done. That's what I think is unstoppable, like you keep moving, because, you know, the universe is in constant movement. There's a breath that the Japanese would call koku ryuku, so we always breathing. So you have to keep moving. You have to keep moving. Nothing stays static is good. Michael Hingson  1:03:27 One of the things that immediately comes to mind is that there was a guy named Roger Banister. He is the person who broke the four minute mile. And people said for years before he did it, no one can physically run faster than a mile in four minutes, and if you do, you'll die. That worked until, I think it was 1957 when he did it. And yeah, there's so many the Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:03:51 same with the car, the same with the car. Remember? Yeah, yeah. People thought that if the car went more than 35 miles an hour, or something like that, it will explode. Michael Hingson  1:04:01 Yeah, yep. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. I think you've given us lots to think about. If people want to reach out to you and learn more about what you do and so on. How do they do that? Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:04:13 They can visit my website. It's Prince gharios.org's Can you spell that? Yeah, Prince, like you say it and, G, H, A, R, i, o, s.org, altogether.org, Prince darius.org, okay, yeah, and yeah, or Google, me. I have social media, I have Instagram, I have Facebook, I'll be happy to LinkedIn. Michael Hingson  1:04:43 I know LinkedIn, Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:04:45 yes, how we got together, Speaker 2  1:04:47 yes, how we got Yeah, yeah. Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:04:49 So YouTube again, you Google, you go to YouTube. Is our channel is called Royal Herald. You can watch documentary about what we do. It's called the. Legacy and the Christian kings of the Middle East. So both have history. You can watch the royal legacy, and you get both the history and what we are doing now. So it's free. You don't have to do anything. You just go on YouTube. Is everything we do is free. Michael Hingson  1:05:19 Great. Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for watching and listening today, wherever you are, please give us a five star rating and give us a great review. I think that garrios has given us a lot to think about today, and I hope that you all agree with that. I'd love to hear your thoughts as well. Feel free to email me at Michael H, [email protected] that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and garos for you and all of you listening, if you know anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please introduce us. We'd love to hear from you and from them, and we're always looking for more people to have come on so that we can show that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. But again, Prince garrios, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. Prince Gharios el Chemor  1:06:15 Thank you. My brothers. Was my pleasure, and I'm always here whatever you need Michael Hingson  1:06:23 thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset you.

What happens when you trust your talent before anyone else does? I had the pleasure of speaking with Spider Saloff, a jazz vocalist and performer whose journey shows what it means to truly create your own path. From secretly rehearsing as a teenager to performing for the Gershwin family and building a career in jazz and cabaret, Spider shares how taking risks, following curiosity, and trusting your instincts can open unexpected doors. We also explore her resilience through personal challenges, including overcoming an abusive relationship and rebuilding her life from nothing. You will hear how music, creativity, and lifelong learning became her anchors, and why choosing your own direction can lead to a life that is both meaningful and unstoppable. Highlights: 00:10 – Discover how a passion for music at a young age can shape an entire life path 02:04 – Learn how early opportunities and saying yes can open unexpected doors 10:00 – Understand why creating your own opportunities can redefine your career 16:20 – Hear how taking bold action led to a life-changing connection with the Gershwin family 30:00 – Discover how one decision can completely change where your life and career unfold 44:44 – Learn what it takes to break free from hardship and rebuild your life with resilience Bottom of Form About the Guest: What does it take to build a lasting career in music and performance? Spider Saloff has done exactly that, earning recognition as a multi-award-winning vocalist and entertainer known for her powerful voice, wide range, and captivating stage presence. Born in Philadelphia and raised in New Jersey, she began her journey in theater at a young age, studying acting at Rowan University and the University of London. Her early career in musical theater included more than 25 major roles, but everything shifted when she discovered her passion for jazz. That move led her to work with top musicians, gain critical acclaim, and begin touring both nationally and internationally. Over time, Spider became one of the most respected interpreters of the American Songbook, known for blending deep emotion with humor in her performances. Her connection with the Gershwin family helped launch signature shows like her tribute to George Gershwin, which has been performed around the world. She has also created tributes to icons like Cole Porter and Irving Berlin, performed at major venues and festivals globally, and hosted the syndicated radio series Words and Music. Beyond the stage, she is a teacher, writer, and creator who helps others find their unique voice, continuing to inspire audiences and students alike through a career built on passion, creativity, and authenticity. Ways to connect with Spider: Website: https://spidersaloff.com LinkTree: https://linktr.ee/spiderjazz Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/spidie.saloff Twitter (@spidersaloff): https://x.com/spidersaloff?s=21\&t=XIFFgGFn7E5Hd_8J8Rexfg Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/artist/6gKiYyeoZyxZTAI2EpGWbU?si=WudPV-CUQPmMThTtV508Og YouTube (@TheMartinicat): https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTLI-Gd51JdcMT0FVvvD9lA YouTube, “When You See Me”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTbO1FWrje4 Instagram (@spider.jazz): https://www.instagram.com/spider.jazz/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset, and we have an unstoppable mindseted, oriented sort of person today. Spider Saloff. Spider is a vocalist. She's a comedian. She is in Chicago, as I recall, but she has been to a variety of places. She is a very highly acclaimed vocalist, a singer. She sings and deals with a lot of the songs that I like, like the Great American Songbook, Gershwin, Irving, Berlin and other things like that. And she has a lot of accolades that come from any number of famous people who you've probably heard of. And so in the course of the next hour or so, I'm sure we're going to hear about a bunch of that. But for now, spider, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad Spider Saloff  01:49 you're here. Well, I'm happy to be here. Thank you for inviting me. Michael Hingson  01:53 Well, you are, you are most welcome. So how did you get into doing, acting, singing and all the other things that you do. Spider Saloff  02:04 Well, it started when I was a kid. I always loved music, and you know, it was so in love with the arts. But when I was 14, I came home and told my parents that I could get them tickets to the high school variety show. And they said, What? And I told them, I'm in it. I'm going to be in it. And they said, well, doing what? And I said, singing. And they were they were shocked, and I didn't tell them. I used to rehearse at my girlfriend's home because her family was all over it. They thought I was wonderful, and I knew my family would tell me that I couldn't do it so because it's just too foreign and too scary to them. So I ended up performing at this variety show, and my my parents were absolutely shocked, and one thing led to another. And then I met a theater director who worked at my school, and he came, he was a professional guy from New York that they hired to come in to do a musical, and I was in it. And I ended up getting the opportunity to be in a summer stock company and my parents let me go, which was amazing. I think they were just relieved to get me out of the house for the summer, but whatever it takes, but I certainly learned a lot, and I was very young for that experience, but it was, it was so, so worth it. And then after I finished high school, I went to college for theater. Now, your parents are from Russia. Oh, no, no, no, no, they're descend. My father's descendants are from Russia. That's where the name is from. But they are, I think I am about 11 different nationalities. So it's we're real much we are real much of the world. Well, there you go, yeah. Michael Hingson  04:05 So now we need to just clone that combination, since obviously you sing, well, we need to get that in other people, just just, you know, just a thought, you know, Spider Saloff  04:16 sounds good. Sounds dangerous to me. Michael Hingson  04:18 Actually, I know it's either that or we're gonna Spider Saloff  04:21 have to get more, more of one than more than one of Michael Hingson  04:24 me, more than one spider? No, we can't have that. Well, either that or we get AI to to imitate you. But we don't want to do we don't want to do that either, scary stuff. 04:35 Yeah, yeah, it is. Michael Hingson  04:36 Well, so how did you encounter and come up with the name spider. Spider Saloff  04:44 I did not choose it. I, you know, I never thought that my real name made any sense from the time I was a child, it's, I'm like, that doesn't make sense. And then I got the nickname when I was in college, because I have, I'm. Really a small person, but I have very long arms and legs, and it was a nickname, and it just stuck with me. And then finally I surrendered to it as a professional name, and people don't forget it. They may not like me, but they don't forget the name. And then it just stuck. And it's been that way ever since, how could Michael Hingson  05:20 somebody not like you? Spider Saloff  05:23 Well, I don't know. I'm sure there's somebody out there. I would love to thank everyone. Just endorse me, but Michael Hingson  05:31 we'll see. Well, yeah, I mean, it'll all go so where did you go to college? Spider Saloff  05:37 I went to a college that doesn't exist anymore, actually, now it is Rowan University. It's in New Jersey, outside of Philadelphia, and it became Rowan University when it got the largest private donation in history. But it was a state college called Glassboro State College, and it was a fine arts school at the time. There were several of my friends, including the conductor for the Lion King and Broadway people, all went to school there, and now it has no arts program at all. But part of our program, I did get to study at University of London too. So that was really exceptional. And it was so wonderful, a wonderful school, great opportunity. You know, it's, it was outside of Philadelphia, close to New York, and now it's an engineering school. For the most part. There isn't, there are no fine arts there at all. Well, that's too bad. But, well, yeah, I know, but somebody's got to do the engineering, Michael Hingson  06:39 I guess. I Well, there's truth to that too. Now, have you seen THE LION KING LIVE on Broadway? I have Spider Saloff  06:46 never seen it, and it's never seen it. I gotta see it. I've got to see it. I it just never happened. I kept intending to go and I never saw it. And I know people that played for it as well. 06:59 You've seen the movie. No, you haven't seen the movie Spider Saloff  07:02 either, anything Lion King. My goodness, I know I better. That's one of my goals. By the end of the year, let me see if I can see it. Michael Hingson  07:10 Well, I'll tell you my lion king story. A my brother in law knew someone who knew some of the actors in Lion King, and he and his wife and their little girl, who at the time was like three or four, were coming through New Jersey, where we lived in Westfield, and we all arranged to go see The Lion King. It was a Wednesday afternoon. It was a matinee, and near the beginning when scar, the bad guy meets the hyenas, who he works with, they all come on, they come on stage and they're growling and all sorts of things like that. Well, in the theater, the hyenas come from the back of the theater, down the stairs, and they walk past everyone growling and making all these noises? Well, my wife was in a wheelchair her whole life. She was a t3 paraplegic, and when one of the hyenas came up next to her, because we were able to arrange for an accessible seat, which was right on the aisle, this hyena comes up right next to her and goes, you've never seen a woman who is totally paralyzed suddenly literally jump up and almost walk out of the theater. It was amazing. She he shocked her completely. But it was so much fun. And of course, Alanya, the little girl, was just there with these big, huge eyes over all of this. But what Karen, my wife, told me later was that what was interesting about it was that when she was obviously watching all of this, and she said, You got totally used to the the puppets being the animals they were. They didn't you. They didn't even look like puppets anymore. They were just the animals. Spider Saloff  09:05 And that's exactly what I've heard about it, that it's like, it was fascinating. You're completely swept away with it. Michael Hingson  09:10 Yeah, wow. So, so it's cool, but, yeah, you gotta, you gotta go see The Lion King. It is absolutely worth it. The music is wonderful and all that. Wow. So we got to see it on Broadway, which was cool. Well, so you, so you went to college, and then what did you do? Spider Saloff  09:32 Well, when I got out of college, I, you know, was doing theater, but I ended up in musicals because I sang, and I really my training, my formal training, really is acting. I did not train as a singer. I just started singing naturally when I was a teenager, and then I just did a ton of musicals. I was in musicals like forever and but. I always loved jazz, and that was always in my back pocket. And then at one point, I really decided I wanted to pursue jazz while it was still in musical theater, because it was getting harder and harder to get roles, because they wanted, this is in the late 80s. They wanted you to be a dancer as well, and that was not going to happen for me. So I really thought, you know, I just, I want to check out the whole nightclub scene, you know, in Cabaret, where you could produce your own show. And so I started to really pick the minds of the guys in the pit band. And I talked to all these pit musicians, and they would tell me about, you know, places to go, and how they there were guys I met there that introduced me to other people, that helped me to do my first demo, and then started working in clubs. And then that really changed everything for me. Michael Hingson  11:01 So you got very much involved in doing a lot of Spider Saloff  11:04 jazz, yeah, jazz and cabaret, and it was all small clubs. But then that was what got me major press attention. And then I started touring with a show that I co wrote with a guy named Ricky ritzel, who's from New York, and we did a show called 1938 and that was my first recording as well. And then then just kept going from there, and that's how a lot of things happened, was really just deciding to do my own thing and create my own world of performance. So you're also Michael Hingson  11:45 known for doing something related in one way or another to comedy? Spider Saloff  11:50 Well, yeah, I've always done comedic roles, and I can't say I have ever done stand up, but I may be getting close to it, I'm not sure, but I always involve a lot of comedic monologs in everything I do. Like, if you see me at a jazz club, I will tell stories. And, you know, it's part of, part of who I am, is a lot of the comedy stuff. And, you know, crazy stories and telling stories about people, and, you know, doing imitations of people that I've met over the years and that kind of stuff. So it's, it is part of my whole persona on stage. Michael Hingson  12:33 What's your favorite musical that you've done? Boy, it's probably a toughy. Spider Saloff  12:40 I did so many, I have to say, Guys and Dolls. Okay, guys and dolls. I was Adelaide and Guys and Dolls, one of the best roles I've ever done. It was really a good choice for me, and and I, and I have to say I was in what, four productions of Fiddler on the Roof, and I've been two seidels, one Hava and fru masera, so but I love that show. I think it's magical. Michael Hingson  13:21 Just it is. Have you ever been in numb? I like Guys and Dolls, but my favorite, and it's just been that way for a long time. I don't know why was the music? Man, were you ever in the music? Spider Saloff  13:32 Man, I was, but there's no, there's no role in that for me. But I was one of the pick a little ladies. Oh, it is one of my favorite shows. Though, I think it's a masterpiece. I love love love music, man. I think it's just brilliant. Michael Hingson  13:48 You don't think you could have done you? Lily capecni shim you know, Spider Saloff  13:53 I was too young to do it at the time. Michael Hingson  13:54 Yeah. Well, like always, now there's always Marion, Spider Saloff  14:00 no, I don't have the soprano chops for that. They let me do it in Sutton Foster's keys. Well, I was thrilled that they took it down for her, because I could actually do it in those keys. That would be great. Michael Hingson  14:16 I saw it a couple of times on Broadway. Now I'm blanking out on the person it was in. Well, we saw it in, like, 2002 1001 and I'm trying to remember I'm blanking out on the person who played Marion. She actually ended up getting Lou Gehrig's disease and passed away. Spider Saloff  14:43 I don't know who. I don't know, which Michael Hingson  14:45 totally shocked us. Spider Saloff  14:46 I'm drawing a blank, I don't know. Michael Hingson  14:48 Yeah, I'm blanking out on her name. I may think of it, but, Oh, forgive us. She did a she did a great, a great job. But, yeah, but there's nobody like Robert Preston to play Harold Hill. And. Spider Saloff  15:00 Anyway, oh, that movie is so beautiful. I love that movie. Yeah, music, man is brilliant. It really is brilliant. Well, that Michael Hingson  15:10 goes back to, you know, Mr. Mr. Meredith. Meredith Wilson, Spider Saloff  15:18 yes, and I read, I read his book. Have you ever do you know of his book called he doesn't know the territory? Michael Hingson  15:27 No, I'll have to see if I Spider Saloff  15:28 can find writing and production of music. Man, I love, love. Love that book. And it's about all the trials of getting it produced and how he did. They did one of the opening one of the readings when they were trying to raise the money to do it. And moss Hart. Moss and Kitty Hart were there, and they hated it so much they walked out the middle of it. Opening Night, moss Hart was there, and he he saw, he saw Meredith Wilson in the lobby, and he shook his hand, and he said, he said, Great show. But you know what, you still haven't licked that book. Oh gosh, because he was an outsider. I mean, he wasn't part of the Broadway team. And no, the fact that he actually played with a John Philip Sousa, like, what, yeah, couch or something. It was real deal. Like, real real, like, old timey marching band stuff. Michael Hingson  16:35 Yeah, amazing. Well, then he also did The Unsinkable Molly Spider Saloff  16:39 Brown, yes, yes, another great show, yeah, not produced very often. But no, Michael Hingson  16:45 no, it's not. It's, it's sort of sad. Oh, well. But you, you've been very much involved with with a lot of jazz and so on. Tell us about meeting the Gershwin family and and your your involvement with Gershwin, which, you Spider Saloff  17:01 know, he, of course, magical. It was. It was truly a life changing event for me, my partner and I, Ricky ritzel And I had been doing 1938 and then we decided to write this show that was called Porgy and Bess, a cabaret concert, oh boy. And it was in New York, and a very powerful guy from ASCAP came to see it, and Michael kirker, and he came to see it, and he said, this show is brilliant. He goes, but you guys are going to get shut down by the Gershwin family, so you need to call them and see if they'll give you permission. So I had the phone number for Leopold godowsky, the third who is the nephew of George and Ira. His mother is Frankie Gershwin, who was George and IRA's younger sister, and I was a wreck. My hands were shaking, and I called him on the phone and and he was very polite. He just had this incredibly mannered guy, you know, it was really lovely. He goes, Well, you know, I don't see that we could allow Porgy and Bess be performed in a night club, and it wasn't like we were doing the show. We were just right. We were telling a story about how it was written and then just performing the songs as separate entities, but they were enfolding into the story. So I said, Would you would you want to comment? Would you want to see it? If we put it on a videotape, and he goes, Oh, I don't know. He goes, let me think about it. So then I called him back right away. I had the nerve to call him back again. I said, Well, would you come to see the show. He said, you know, what would you and your partner be willing to come and perform it at my home in Connecticut? There you go. And I'm like, What? What? So this whole thing got put together, and we went up to the Gershwins home in Connecticut. We met Leopold and his fabulous wife, Elaine, and they had, they said, we're having, we're having 40 close friends here for dinner. They were cooking dinner themselves, and it was this magical house in Connecticut. They had 40 industry people there. It was crazy. I mean, there were all these famous people there, and we were, we did like, as he called it, a 30 minute musicale. We did highlights from the show in their living room by the great. End piano, and I believe the piano had belonged to George, because Leopold is classical pianist as well. So we did the show, and then we all had dinner, and this friendship started. So what evolved was they, they did, let us do the show, but then my relationship continued with them, and when the Gershwin Centennial started in 1996 it was Iris 100th birthday, two years before George's. In 98 I became part of the centennial presentation, so I got to tour with my Gershwin concert under their brand, and also record my Gershwin album with their brand on it. And it was the beginning of a beautiful friendship. And it was, it was a huge, you know, a huge mark in my career, and it opened a lot of doors for me. So wonderful, wonderful people. Michael Hingson  21:03 One of my favorite pieces of all times. Calling it a piece is probably not totally accurate. It's bigger than that, but one of my favorite things from classical music has always been Rhapsody in Blue. And I don't know why, but the very first time I heard it, I loved it, and I've enjoyed it ever since. I've heard the Boston Pops do it, you know, and and others do it. It's just one of those neat things I've just always loved. Spider Saloff  21:30 I'm getting chills just talking about it, because that was so groundbreaking at the time when Paul Whiteman had the contest right of who was going to be able to cross the borders of jazz and classical. And you know, who else was in that contest was Aaron Copland, oh my gosh, Eric Copeland, and he was always in competition with Gershwin, yeah, and Gershwin won and musically, that that changed the whole concept of jazz, I mean, to be accepted in a classical arena. It was really remarkable. What that what that piece did, like, amazing. Michael Hingson  22:18 I actually heard once the Paul Whiteman arrangement of Rhapsody in Blue was performed by a group I don't even recall where, but it was outside. It was a little different, but it still was just so neat to hear this. Spider Saloff  22:36 The first person to hear it, yep. I mean, Paul, my Paul Whiteman was incredible, though. I mean, what a what a groundbreaking person. He was artistically, right? Michael Hingson  22:48 Yeah, he, he did some amazing things, Spider Saloff  22:51 yeah, yeah, you know what I've got to mention. And I hope this doesn't make make our interview too dated. But last night, I saw the movie Blue Moon. That is about about Larry Hart. Oh, my God, I haven't seen that. I'm gonna have to. It just came out last week. Oh, okay, it's not gonna be very often. It's absolutely gorgeous, and Ethan Hawk plays Larry Hart. It it's it's beautiful and funny and heartbreaking, and it all the whole premise is Larry Hart has to go to opening night of Oklahoma, oh gosh, and how painful it is, and this whole cathartic thing he's going through. So the bulk of the entire it's more like, like a theater piece. The whole thing takes place at the bar at Sardi's when he's talking to the bartender and waiting for for Rogers and Hammerstein to show up. And it's, ah, Wowza, it's brilliant. It's brilliant. And talk about, I don't know how they ever got that produced, because it's definitely a movie that's not going to appeal to everybody, but boy, is it brilliant. Michael Hingson  24:14 Wow. Well, hopefully it will come out in some place where I can can watch it up here, and that'll be cool, yeah, Spider Saloff  24:22 and I think it's probably going to go to streaming pretty soon, I'm sure, yeah. So you'll have a lot of opportunities. But I really was happy to go to the theater and see it. But wow, and people in the audience were laughing at all the jokes they were getting, all the sly, Sly comments of Larry Hart, like, wow, witty, witty, witty, just brilliant, just brilliant. Michael Hingson  24:51 Well, your whole Gershwin relationship, obviously, is pretty significant. You even did some Gershwin concert. In Russia, Spider Saloff  25:02 yes, yes. That was why I went to Russia. They were having a Gershwin Centennial in St Petersburg in 1998 because that is the, that is the origins of the Gershwin family. They are from St Petersburg. And so I was hired with my pianist to go to St Petersburg. And do we? Did we were there for seven days, and I think we did like five concerts, and it was amazing to be there, because this was when Russia was getting good. This was, like the good part, and still was scary. It was scary. We stayed in this really creepy hotel that was like a government hotel, and the rooms were bugged. And then when the hallways there were padded walls, like where they could pull these panels out, and there was all kinds of wiring in there, bugging and strange stuff. The concert hall was absolutely magical. It was an old concert hall, and people went crazy, and when I sang the song vodka, which is an oddity, by Gershwin, by way, herbert stothard, Otto Harbach, Oscar Hammerstein and George Gershwin wrote this crazy song called vodka. And when I did the song, people stood on their chairs and screamed, the Russians just loved, loved, loved the concert, the audiences couldn't have been better, and the people that ran the organization couldn't have been weirder. It was, it was very strange. And when we went to leave, the guy that booked us and me and my pianist, they they took our passports, and we had to go to a little room where they said that we our visas were expired and and we had to pay money to get out of there, and they were mad at the guy that was our manager, because he sassed them. And anyway, we had to wait. We were afraid we're going to miss the plane. And then finally, they came out with, like a little, a little tape from an adding machine, and they, they said, you have to pay $58.23 American. So they charged us this $58 and we paid it and ran to get on the plane and and I'm like, I was never so scared in my life. I didn't know what they were going to do, but it was an experience, and it was thrilling and beautiful. But don't think I'm going back to Russia, not in the near term. Yeah. Oh, and then that's when all these people said, my name is sell off. You are my cousin. I come home with you like there were so many people with my name, because in this country, there aren't that many. Aren't that many sell offs. My family is pretty small, and occasionally I'll meet us a sell off. But they're usually, they're usually rabbis, or it's like there aren't that many of us out there, but it was, it was an amazing experience. Loved it. Michael Hingson  28:28 Now, did you when you were over there, sing any of the songs or anything in Russian, or did that matter? Spider Saloff  28:34 Oh no, oh no, let's didn't do that, huh? I'm not. No, I, you know, I'm good at doing accents, and sometimes I will learn to say, like I would learn a little bit of French to get by, but then they would start asking me questions, and I didn't know what they were saying, and then they thought I was just being a jerk, you know, I'm pretending I don't understand them or something. But it was, No, I don't speak. I can barely handle English, but I didn't know whether you might have Michael Hingson  29:05 tried to learn one of the songs just for fun. Spider Saloff  29:08 There wasn't time. This went together so fast. I think we only had, like, two weeks notice. They had rushed the visas and, you know, we had, we had passports in order, but it was a lot of legal red tape. Michael Hingson  29:25 But that's why it cost $58.33 to get out. I don't know, very crazy one of those things. Oh, yeah. Well, well, at least it was affordable. Spider Saloff  29:41 Well, it will, and it was exciting. I mean, everything was paid for. But, oh, this was another weird thing they paid. They paid us in cash, American dollars, and I needed to hide, I had to hide it in my boot. I put it in. Hide the soul of my boot when I'm okay, wow, yeah, it was, it was creepy all the way down the line. It was very strange. Oh, well, yeah, things happen. 30:11 Things happen. Yeah, I was, Spider Saloff  30:12 I'm very, very, very fortunate that I got, got to do it, yeah? Michael Hingson  30:19 So obviously a wonderful memory. And yeah, oh yeah, one of those things that you'll you'll always treasure. You bet. Well, so when did you move to Chicago? Spider Saloff  30:32 Oh, well, when? When I started to get get my feet wet in New York, in the nightclub scene and the jazz scene, I got some really fabulous reviews, including the New York Times. And there was a guy from Chicago who I met through the great Julie Wilson, and his name was Bill Allen, and he was partners with Bobby Short, and he opened this really crazy club in Chicago, very famous, called the Gold Star sardine bar. And both Liza Minnelli had played there the Basie band. He squeezed the Basie band in there, but it was this tiny little place right in downtown Chicago, and it was really wild. And a lot of people had played there. Tony Bennett had played there, and Liza and I kind of was courting the room. I kept talking to him. He had he had found my press kit. Think he had been sent three different press kits, and we don't know which one he opened, and he called me, and we kept this ongoing conversation about coming out to do performance there, and then finally, he decided to bring me out for New Year's Eve, and my husband and I flew out, and it was just we were we had a couple of friends here in Chicago that we visited, but we didn't know anybody here. I'd never been to Chicago, you know, but it was magical. And then he said, Well, I'm going to have you back. I'm going to have you back. And then I didn't hear from him. And finally, the following September, he asked if I could come and play for a month, and I had almost no warning, because he was very impulsive and really crazy. So he asked me to come out for a month, and I did. They put me up in a hotel, and I played with the musicians. Were magical. People were so great. And so I played for a month, and then he said, you know, what would you think about about moving here? And my husband and I were both excited about it. Then we didn't hear anything from him. And then right after So, the first week of February the following year, he calls me up and said, Could you move here? And I'm like, I guess so. Why he goes, Well, I'll book you here for a year, and we'll arrange to get an apartment. And can you start like next week? Oh, gosh, ah, so I did it. I came out, and then my husband came out. We took a sublet on an apartment right downtown in Chicago, sight unseen. We moved here with our cat, and the rest was history. I ended up having the best nobody has a gig for a year, yeah, and and hired partially by the only person that had a gig forever, who was Bobby Short. So because I had met Bobby Short in New York, and he kind of gave bill the okay, you know, he liked me. And then I, I met Tony Bennett there, and Liza interrupted my show one night and crawled on to the over the balcony, onto the stage. And it was magical. There were lines around the block and and I got, I was courted by the press in Chicago like you wouldn't believe. I mean, it was magical. So when my run was up there, I started working at other clubs, and also I started touring at concert tours of my shows, like the Gershwin show, and started to tour. So it just became another life for me. But I'm, I'm in Chicago forever. As far as I'm concerned. I adore it here. I just love it. Michael Hingson  34:45 So when did you move there? Spider Saloff  34:47 The beginning of 92 Michael Hingson  34:49 Okay, all right, so when Liza, when Liza invaded the stage? Did you guys sing together? Spider Saloff  34:55 No, this is what happened. I had met Liza. Yeah, well, I was still living in New York, and I was friends with Billy Stritch, who was liza's musical director. So he was a friend of mine, and he introduced me to Liza, and because she was he was conducting a bit that big show she did at Radio City Music Hall that was a tribute to Vincent Minnelli. Right? She did this spectacular show at Radio City, and Billy was musical directing, and that's when they really became partners. And he introduced me to Liza, and she was just a doll, one of the nicest, coolest people in show business. So I met her, and she was really kind to me, very friendly, very sweet. And so they were playing at the Chicago theater. Liza was doing her one woman show, and it was closing this particular Saturday that I was at the Gold Star, and I had sent Billy a note to to, you know, come by when they're we're done. So I'm doing the second set. And then crazy Bill Allen at the break. He goes, he goes, Okay, people are going to come in here. Joe Pesci is going to come in and and he's going to come up and meet you. And I'm like, Joe Pesci. Joe Pesci was doing a movie here, and his double, his gangster double, used to come in and see me at the gold star. So anyway, the break comes, I'm on stage, and all of a sudden the door opens, and they come in, and it's, it was Billy and Liza and Joe Pesci. And Joe Pesci comes up on stage with Billy and my band kind of crawls off the stage, because by now, there are, there's about, I don't know, 200 people packed in a 70 person room, and their people are coming out of the woodwork. They're like, sitting on top of the bar, and I can't even get off the stage. And Joe Pesci. Pesci leans down, he's like, hey, hey, honey, my my double. He thinks you're great. He goes, Yeah, we're gonna do some songs now. And I'm like, okay, so I sat there, and Billy came up and played. The bass player was there with them. Joe Pesci got up and sang. He was adorable. And then Liza is sitting right by this. They called it the opera box. There was a big, like private table that was right next to the stage. She crawls over the bar onto the stage, and people are just screaming. It was absolutely nuts. And she did like three songs, and she was losing her voice. She had just done a killer thing at the Chicago theater, and she was really, like, raspy. Did it anyway? And she ended with New York, New York, and people were like, screaming. It was just bonkers. It was bonkers. And so that's what the Gold Star was like. It was just a crazy place, and you didn't know who was going to come in the door, who was going to interrupt your show? You just, you just didn't know. Michael Hingson  38:24 Yeah. And they even had the Count Basie orchestra there, and that was, how'd they fit him? How'd they Spider Saloff  38:30 fit him in? Couldn't fit them. It was like a publicity stunt, yeah, and the band was all stuffed in there, and there were a few people that could get in the room, but people were standing in the hallway to hear Pacey pants. This is way before my time. Yeah, it was like in the early 80s, when they opened and they were way crazier then, then when, when I came, Michael Hingson  38:53 you settled them down. Did Spider Saloff  38:55 you No? No, but they, they, they, well, I was there for a year, and then the following year, I went back a few times on Saturdays, and then Bill told Jeremy Conn and I that we were going to be the regular actor because they were always on the verge of closing. They wouldn't have any liquor, and somebody would be coming in the back door with liquor because they didn't pay their liquor bill. And it was, he was in a lawsuit. And anyway, they told us that he goes, Yeah, yeah. Call me on Tuesday and we're gonna we're getting all the details straight. Now. You guys are going to be regular. Here Tuesday came and there were chains on the door. Oh, gosh. And that was the end of it. It ended, and it was a magical time, but there were a lot of problems, a lot of legal problems going on. Michael Hingson  39:50 I met Liza Minnelli once. That was the second or third time I was interviewed by Larry King, and she was now. She was going to perform on the show as well, but it was after September 11, and so I got, I got to meet her, and that was about it, but I did get to meet her, which was fun. Exciting. It was fun. How exciting. And every time we walked out after the interviews, there were lots of photographers outside. Everyone was taking pictures, and we had to put up with all that, but I guess it provided a lot of visibility, but it was kind of fun to be able to do that. Spider Saloff  40:34 How cool. I never met Larry King. I knew a lot of people were on his show. But well, how exciting that you did it twice? Michael Hingson  40:43 Well, actually we there were five interviews with Larry. The first one was right after September 11. It was on the 14th. And then there was another one. There was either one or two more. I think there was one more in November of 2001 and then on the anniversary, in 2002 was the third. But there there were five altogether, and during one of them, and I think it was the one on the anniversary or in 2002 but I have to go back and see if I can research it. But anyway, Hillary, Hillary Clinton and Chuck Schumer were, were there? Lisa Beamer, Todd Beamer, his wife Todd's the guy who said, let's roll on flight 93 when they took over the plane again and got it in a crash in Shanksville. Wow, and and Queen. Nor was there. So who I'm sorry, Queen nor from? Who is the queen of Jordan? Oh, wow. And she and she and Roselle had a thing for a while. Roselle was my guide dog at the time, so they visited. It was kind of fun. Oh, wow. But, yeah, it was, it was interesting. But as I say, then we, we did meet Liza briefly, and that was kind of fun. She said she's Spider Saloff  42:09 a doll, yeah, doll. Oh, yeah. What a great person, yeah. Michael Hingson  42:13 Well, so I was looking at all the things that you sent me, and I noticed Tony Bennett. I got to meet Tony Bennett once we were on Regis and Kelly live in November of 2001 and I was sitting there, and I heard that Tony Bennett was going to be on the show. And suddenly he comes over and he says, Hey, I'm Tony Bennett. Good to meet you. I've heard about you. So we chatted for a while, and he and Roselle had a thing too, and he and Roselle had a thing too. Spider Saloff  42:45 So that was good. Oh, that Roselle. Oh, but yeah, I met him at the Gold Star, and he because he had played there several times, you know, as a future act. And he was doing, he was in. He was in town to do something. Maybe it was at the Chicago theater as well, but he came in, hanging out in his in his white dinner jacket, absolutely charming. And he sat down and talked to me between sets. It's like talking to your uncle, like he's like, Yeah, what do you think of this weather here in Chicago, and it was like just the friendliest, most laid back, cool guy and and I've seen him perform several times. I adored him. Michael Hingson  43:32 I regret I never got to see him live other than hearing him do, other than hearing him on regents and Kelly, he did a New York state of mind. Spider Saloff  43:41 Oh, cool. Very cool, Michael Hingson  43:43 wow, very soft spoken guy. But when he can sing, he can he could Bell it, Bell it out, Spider Saloff  43:49 and he and he sang the same forever, like, that's my my idols are. I want to sound the same forever, and I have the two, the two, the two most remarkable preserved voices were Ella Fitzgerald and Mel Tormey, both of them, they had chops forever like that. They they were just very, very careful and smart about the way they use their voices. Michael Hingson  44:18 Yeah. Johnny Mathis lasted a long time. I don't know what he sounds like. Spider Saloff  44:24 He just sounded the same forever. Yeah, killer, woo hoo, wow. And I never got to see him live, but I know people that did, and I mean, not that long ago, and they were blown away. Like, just Yeah, killer, yep, Michael Hingson  44:43 amazing, another amazing guy. Well, so have you ever had any any real kind of challenges and sort of negative things that have happened to you in your life? You've obviously been very successful. And all that. But, you know, unstoppability oftentimes happens when you have a challenge. Spider Saloff  45:05 Oh yes, well, you know, small things, challenges. I mean, like the worst, though, was when I was very young, a young actress, I got swept away by a guy that was a director. He was 10 years older than me, and I ended up in a really terrible abusive relationship for years, and didn't know how to get out, and I did. I ended up doing a six part. I have a YouTube channel, and this was two years ago. I did a six part series called learning to love you, and it was the very subject of what happens in abusive relationships and why people stay and why they are convinced that they can't live without the person. They're convinced that they're powerless. They are told they have to depend on this person, and they're very afraid. And I I was so lucky to break away from there and get out. And when I got out. I mean, I this guy completely left me with no money, no home, no job, and I was so ashamed to tell my family. I didn't tell them till months after it had happened, and I went, you know, trying to get trying to get more work as an actress. I worked as a bartender in a comedy club, and I did that's what I had a lot of comedian friends because of that era, and my friends, and eventually my family, really helped me to get out of it. But I had to get I had to be independent through the whole thing, I my first place I ever I was homeless for six months, and I would go around on busses going between wherever and Atlantic City because the casinos were there. So I could get a free ride to Atlantic City and then get a free bus back to New York. I could get a bus back to Philadelphia. I could go around on these busses and just stay at people's houses a couple of nights a week, and not having a place to live, it was horrible. So when I finally moved somewhere, I moved in with an actor friend of mine who had just got out of his abusive relationship, and I slept on the floor of an attic for like, the first six months that I was living on my own, and I was so grateful to have that floor and and I just kept saying every night before I went To bed, it it gets better from here. It's going up, it's going up, and it did. It did. It was it's remarkable. It's remarkable. Michael Hingson  48:09 What? What did you learn from that relationship? Spider Saloff  48:14 Beware of predators. I really never, never lose sight that you're the person in charge. Yeah, you are the person in charge of your life, and you're the only one that's allowed to do that. And you don't, you don't bend to anybody that's asking you to do anything too far. You just, you have to be very skeptical about, you know, who's getting close to you? And I was married long after that, I was married to my husband, and he passed away, oh, 16 years ago, and but there's been, there's been a lot of strange loss and and trauma. But I I am blessed with resilience, and I have to say, the thing that keeps me steady music, music and beauty and art can carry me through anything, and I'm surrounded by that and the best, best, best friends in the world. Oh, man, and my family and my friends are amazing, and I'm very, very fortunate, very fortunate. Michael Hingson  49:32 How long were you married? Before he passed away, Spider Saloff  49:35 we would have been married 17 years. Oh, my wife, Michael Hingson  49:41 my wife. My wife and I were married 40 years. She passed away in November of 2022 lot. Well. Thank you. I appreciate that. And I I always say when I when I tell that to anybody that she's watching from somewhere, and if I misbehave, I'm going to hear about it, so I don't even. Chase the girls. I also point out that they're not chasing me, so it's okay, but, but, but, you know, so many wonderful memories after 40 years, and people say, Well, are you going to move on? And I say, No, I'll never move on. I'll move forward, but I won't move on. I don't want to forget, but I'll move forward. Spider Saloff  50:20 That's an interesting twist of words there. Yeah, no. I mean, I have moved my life has become, actually, way, way better since my husband passed. I was dealing with a lot, and he was, he was dealing with severe mental illness, and it was very it was very hard near the end, my life is beautiful now. And I, I'm just, I feel like everything is new all the time. And I, I don't really have any close relationships, in romantic relationships. I tried a couple since he passed, but I don't, I don't think I'm good at it. I do better on my own. I'm much better on my own. Michael Hingson  51:18 Yeah, yeah. I know what I know what you mean. And as I said, it'll be three years in two weeks for me and I, when we got married, we had both lived alone. And when she was when she passed, it wasn't totally all of a sudden. So I I had some time to prepare. But it it has worked out pretty well. And so now I have a dog and a cat who keep me honest. The cat especially, oh, we have a cat. Her name is stitch, and she likes to be petted while she eats, and she'll yell at me until I come and pet her while she's eating and what. And when I travel somewhere to speak and I come home, I hear about it for quite a while. How could I ever do that? But she's not left alone. You know, I've got somebody who comes in. She has to give me what for? Well, she does. That's her obligation. Just ask her, absolutely, yeah. And how come you took that dog with you and not me? It's a guide dog. Spider Saloff  52:20 So this is not fair, yeah. Michael Hingson  52:24 Well, the other side of it is, I don't want her to ever get the idea that she can go out of the house. She She developed, on her own, a fear of going outside we she went out into our garage once when we first moved in here, and I kept calling her, she wouldn't come in, so I turned the lights off and I closed the door, and 10 seconds later, she's at the door wanting in, and so she doesn't try to go out. So I really feel blessed that she Spider Saloff  52:49 Yeah, that's good, yeah, yeah, yeah. I had a cat that never wanted to go near the door either, because he had been an alley cat. Everything outside that door was the alley going back there. Yeah, he also was a, he was a big fat house cat. Like, just wanted to lay around and luxuriate and eat and, you know he was, he was really a sweetie. I don't have pets anymore because I'm I leave too often? Michael Hingson  53:21 Yeah, you travel a lot. Well, a lot we at least I have people to help take care of stitch when I'm not here. So it does work out. Yeah, so do you so with all the things that you've been doing and singing and so on, do you teach voice to people? Spider Saloff  53:40 I do. I've taught at a school I didn't start teaching till I moved to Chicago, and this guy named David bloom, he's kind of a Chicago icon. He's had a jazz school in Chicago for years, and he asked me to teach at the school about a year after I moved to Chicago, and I said, I don't know how to teach. He said, Yes, you do. You just teach what you know. And I started teaching. And then I did courses there for a long time. I met a lot of people, and I've had wonderful students, and I still work there on occasion when we have a course. But I teach privately now, and I am. I just love it so much. I mean, I learned so much from my students all the time. You know, they're, they're just amazing, and they're all different, all different voices, all different age groups, all different reasons why they want to sing. But it's, it's one of the joys of my life. Students, they're fantastic. And I adore teaching voice. And I really a coach, you know, I teach performance and coaching, and it's not so much technique. I do some technique, but mostly it's working with. What, what the singer has to offer. Michael Hingson  55:03 I like the way you put it though that you learn so much from students. I think the day we stop learning, the day we become useless, we we always need to learn, learning, and life is all about learning, every Spider Saloff  55:15 day, learning, you bet it's exciting. It keeps you ticking. Michael Hingson  55:21 It does. It's so much fun. And it's, you know, like the internet, I regard it as an as a wonderful treasure trove. There's always neat stuff to learn. So I don't worry about the so called dark web and all that. You know, I didn't know that I would Spider Saloff  55:35 learn as much as I did about, you know, the internet and and the things covid really well. I always, always had a website. I had a guy that became my webmaster, that heard me radio and like there were all. I always was connected with it. But to the extent that I learned how to produce videos that all happened during covid, I really thought I was never going to be performing again live. I you didn't know, you know, that talk, you know, it was just so such a weird world. All of a sudden it was but learning to adapt. That was what we all learned from covid, was adapting and being open to new experiences. You know, that was a major, major factor of the whole thing. Michael Hingson  56:23 And living alone, you have to cook your own food. Spider Saloff  56:25 And like I've always, cooked my own food. Oh, my God, do I love to cook. Yeah, every day for myself. I love cooking and throwing parties. I must be Michael Hingson  56:35 a little bit lazy. I enjoy cooking. But when Karen was here. We shared the responsibility, and it's it's a lot to cook for one person, so I don't do as much of it as I used to, but I don't suffer. I will Spider Saloff  56:50 point that out you guys suffer, no, but I probably I cook for myself. Every day I cook. Almost everything I eat, I don't cook for myself is when somebody magically takes me to dinner or I go to somebody's house. I've got a lot of friends, so I get to eat at other people's houses and go out to restaurants, but I do and look forward to cooking for myself. I just can't wait to see what am I gonna have today, like I get excited about it. You know, it's a joy for me. Michael Hingson  57:23 I cook more easy meals, but I also do my own cooking. I mean, I don't go out very often, and that's fine. Yeah, I enjoy being home. I enjoy being home with a puppy and a kitty and listening to the radio and all that sort of stuff. So I hear you fabulous, fabulous. So you did some work on on radio series. Spider Saloff  57:45 Oh, yes, one of the, actually, the very first pianist that I worked with at the Gold Star sardine bar is a guy named Brad Williams. And we've been friends for years, and then at one point, this, this this guy that was a big fan of mine, Bill Sheldon. He was an old way, older fellow. The three of us created a radio series that's called Words and Music, that's about the American Songbook, and we were on the air for two and a half years. We were on we were part of NPR, and we were syndicated internationally, all through our classical station here in Chicago, W FMT, and it was the most challenging but wonderful time to crank those shows out. We never worked so hard as we did for that show, but those are still out there, you know. And we the copies of that show are available on CD. People can purchase them, and you can learn about that on my website too. Michael Hingson  58:49 I have been collecting old radio shows since 19 Well, let's see, probably 1968 and I've collected a bunch, and I'm also part of the radio enthusiast of Puget Sound, so we recreate programs every year. So I wasn't able, I wasn't able to be at the one that they did up in Washington State in September, because I was speaking somewhere. But there's going to be another one around. Well at Christmas, it's actually going to be the fifth, fourth, fifth and sixth. I think it is. Of December, we're going to recreate something like 12 or 13 different shows, and that's a lot of fun. Spider Saloff  59:34 Wowza, what are the shows like? What is it comprised of performance or recordings or what? Michael Hingson  59:42 No, no, we're actually going to perform live up in Washington, and people are invited to come and be in the audience, and they'll also be broadcast on yesterday usa.com and yesterday usa.net whichever you go to yesterday, USA is a, is a network. It's, it's got a red net. Work in a blue network, just like NBC used to have, and they play old radio shows and a lot of interviews with people. So there's still some old radio actors who will be there as part of it, Carolyn Grimes, who played Zuzu and it's a wonderful life will be there, and Beverly Washburn, who was on the Jack Benny show, and and there'll be other people, and it's kind of neat. And Larry Albert, who will be doing some of the voices, and who's was Harry Niles for years, and still is, I guess, on NPR and and so on. But it's really fun. Spider Saloff  1:00:39 That's excellent. What a blast. Yeah, it is, wow. Well, have a happy holidays with that. Michael Hingson  1:00:46 And yeah, well, I want to thank you for being here. How do people reach out to you, if they'd like to, to reach out, or if you Spider Saloff  1:00:54 want them to my website, spider jazz, calm, and you can find everything and too much information about me, and then, and if you want to get in touch with me directly, write to my email address. Spider [email protected] makes it easy. And maybe you can take private lessons, because I teach on Zoom. Ah, there you go. Me how. Yeah, cool. Michael Hingson  1:01:20 Well, thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening today and watching whichever you do or both. Love to hear your thoughts about our conversation. Feel free to email me. Michael H, [email protected] that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, wherever you're monitoring us today, please give us a five star rating, and please give us a review. We love your reviews. We appreciate your input. If you can think of anyone who you think ought to be a guest, and if you listening out there want to be a guest, please reach out to me. We're always looking for more people to come on the podcast. We met spider through someone else who has been on the the podcast as well. And spider, if you know anyone who want who you think ought to be a guest, yep, love to hear from you. I got some ideas, cool. Well, I want to once again. Thank you for being here. This has been absolutely fun. Spider Saloff  1:02:16 Thank you, Michael, what a blast. I'll be talking to you soon. Michael Hingson  1:02:24 Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hinkson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset you.

What does it take to swim 28.5 miles around Manhattan and still call it fun? I sit down with Lynn Griesemer, an open water swimmer who proves that determination, passion, and mindset can take you further than you think. Lynn shares how she went from casual lap swimming to completing one of the world’s most iconic endurance swims, all while building a life centered on family, curiosity, and growth. You will hear how she trained, faced fear in open water, and developed the kind of unstoppable mindset that pushes past doubt and excuses. This conversation is about more than swimming. It is about finding what drives you, trusting yourself, and taking action even when it feels uncomfortable. I believe you will find this both inspiring and practical as you think about what you want to pursue in your own life. Highlights: 00:10 – Discover what it really takes to swim 28 miles around Manhattan and why mindset matters most 01:32 – Learn how early life and family shaped a foundation of curiosity and determination 20:00 – See how a global shutdown unexpectedly led to a breakthrough in open water swimming 32:18 – Understand what it takes to qualify for and complete one of the toughest endurance swims 36:27 – Hear what 10 hours in open water teaches about mental strength and preparation 47:44 – Learn how determination is built through passion, action, and refusing to quit Bottom of Form About the Guest: Lynn Griesemer began her swimming journey at the age of five when her father introduced her to the joy of swimming. Although she wasn’t a competitive swimmer, she developed a passion for swimming over the years. She became a long-distance swimmer in 2020 and has swum around more than 69 different islands in Tampa Bay, Florida and beyond. She was the first person to swim around St. Pete Beach, FL in 2022. At the age of 62, Lynn and her swim partner Ken Morgan were the Oldest Male-Female Tandem Team to complete the 20 Bridges swim around Manhattan, which is 28.5 miles. Four days after the completion of her New York City swim on 8/9/25, Lynn decided to write a book because she felt transformed by the experience. In fact, most of the books she’s written over the years have come from a place of conviction.  Her current swimming goal is to complete an open water 10K swim, (6.2 miles) in all 50 states. She has completed 15 different states, with 10 more planned for 2026. In addition to swimming, Lynn’s other passions include advocating for long-term happy marriage and husband and wife homebirth. Lynn is a mother of six grown children and grandmother of five. Although she was career-oriented in her twenties, she believes her greatest joy is that she had a large family. She’s been a family mom for three decades and homeschooled her six children from 1994-2016. She enjoyed learning from her children and watching them blossom over the years. Before children, Lynn was an Army Officer and later, a Human Resources Manager. She received her B.A. in Psychology from Boston University and M.S. in Human Resources Management and Development from Chapman University. After four hospital births between 1988 and 1993, Lynn and her husband Bob decided to give birth at home alone for the birth of their two youngest in 1996 and 2002. Not much was written on unassisted homebirth, and she was inspired to publish “Unassisted Homebirth: An Act of Love” in 1998. She is considered a pioneer in the field of unassisted birth (or freebirth), which is giving birth without a doctor or midwife. Another strong interest: public speaking. As a former shy child, Lynn believes effective speaking is necessary for everyone, especially those in leadership and influential positions. She’s written several books on public speaking, with emphasis on children ages 10-18. A bucket list item of hers is to find an expert marketing and business partner to help promote and implement her public speaking programs. Lynn has two more book ideas swimming around in her head – one about island swimming and another about the fifty state10Ks. Her mentor is advising her to write a book on unassisted homebirth, and she’s trying to make time to follow through. Lynn has written 13 books on various topics and is determined to write a handful more in her lifetime. Ways to connect with Lynn: LynnGriesemer.com UnassistedHomebirth.com LinkedIn: Lynn M. Griesemer Instagram: lynngriesemer YouTube Channel: Lynn Griesemer Facebook: Lynn Griesemer Book, https://www.amazon.com/Swimming-Around-Manhattan-Passion-Happen/dp/1962424103/ref=sr_1_1?crid=328XAQ877AE09\&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.JMTrWfJ3Z66GuqE76QAmZaQ1jiHTf-E9Gm_tHoBwP0TzAU45iQaVXiEFWe6pgjEe.C7mHlxz_nZyFP6rbDsTDwuKkATnaB5zo0ifh8-3PDoA\&dib_tag=se\&keywords=swimming+around+manhattan\&qid=1774805884\&sprefix=swimming+around+manhattan%2Caps%2C148\&sr=8-1 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

A heart transplant at 44 could have ended Mark Durante’s story, but it became the start of something far bigger. I had the chance to sit down with Mark, who went from facing end-of-life decisions to building a company focused on regenerative medicine and helping others heal in new ways. His journey through heart failure, recovery, and innovation shows what can happen when you stay curious and take action even in the hardest moments. You will hear how Mark rebuilt his life after transplant, why he believes the body can heal itself with the right support, and how regenerative medicine is changing the future of healthcare. We also explore entrepreneurship, discipline, and why being your own advocate matters more than ever. I believe you will find this conversation both inspiring and practical as you think about your own health, mindset, and what it means to truly live unstoppable. Highlights: 00:10 Discover how a life-threatening diagnosis sparked a whole new path 13:19 Learn why waiting too long can hold you back from real growth 27:47 Hear how a routine check uncovered something far more serious 30:00 Experience what it’s like to face a life-or-death decision 40:59 Find out what finally helped him reclaim his life and function 1:03:48 Understand why taking action is the difference maker in success Bottom of Form About the Guest: Mark Durante is the founder and CEO of Rize Up Medical, a company dedicated to empowering medical practitioners to incorporate cutting-edge regenerative therapies into their practices, enhancing patient care and transforming lives. Mark helps practitioners identify and integrate innovative biologic products into their practices, focusing on delivering exceptional patient outcomes while maximizing profitability. Mark's journey began when he experienced a debilitating health crisis, culminating in a life-saving heart transplant. While grateful for a second chance, he found himself battling relentless pain caused by severe neuropathy. The turning point came when he discovered the transformative power of regenerative medicine, experiencing firsthand its ability to alleviate pain and restore functionality. Through his journey, Mark developed a unique approach to help medical practitioners integrate these cutting-edge therapies into their practices through the RIZE Method, a framework that focuses on recognizing potential, innovating solutions, zeroing in on implementation, and educating for sustainable success. Ways to connect with Mark: https://www.rizeupmedical.com/https://www.instagram.com/rizeupmedical/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-durante/ [email protected] About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What happens when you finally stop carrying the weight of your past? In this conversation, I sit down with Stephanie Maley, a pediatric nurse turned author, who shares her journey through childhood trauma, healing, and writing her memoir. You will hear how she moved through abuse, anger, and burnout, and how the writing process became a path to freedom. Stephanie opens up about motherhood, resilience, and finding purpose through storytelling and advocacy. I believe you will find this episode powerful if you are working through your own challenges or searching for a way forward. Highlights: 00:10 Learn how Stephanie’s early life shaped her resilience and mindset03:44 Discover why she chose pediatric nursing and what drew her to children06:15 Hear how a traumatic first nursing experience nearly made her quit20:50 Learn what led her to finally write and share her story25:10 Understand how writing became a powerful tool for healing52:38 Discover how COVID gave her the space to step into creativity and purpose Bottom of Form About the Guest: A native of Chattanooga, Stephanie L. Maley grew up surrounded by mountains, rivers, and lakes. She developed a love of nature and water there. After obtaining her BSN from the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga, she was a pediatric nurse. She met her husband, Mike, who was a pediatric resident, at T.C. Thompson Children’s Hospital. They met, dated, and married within five months. After he finished his residency, they moved to a rural town in Northeast Georgia and bought a small lake house. They raised their two sons there and Stephanie home educated them. During that time, she helped to start a YMCA in the area and volunteered for almost fifteen years. After attending photography school at North Georgia Technical College, she became a professional photographer and started her photography business in 2010 (www.lov2shoot.com). Stephanie was also an adjunct professor of photography. Since Stephanie was a young woman, she wanted to write a book. In 2018, the #metoo movement spoke to her. Stephanie had been sexually abused and groomed by two men in her elementary and teenage years. When Covid-19 hit, time allowed her to write her memoir, No Longer That Girl: Retracing the Scars of the Past and Present. It was published November 4, 2025, by She Writes Press. Simon and Schuster are the distributor. Her book can be found at Simon & Schuster, Bookshop.org, Barnes and Noble, and anywhere books are sold online. You can also order directly on her website (stephmaley.com). Stephanie and Mike live in their dream home on Lake Hartwell. In the summer, she can be found swimming, driving her boat, paddleboarding, and kayaking. She loves to take walks year-round and has seen foxes, a bobcat, and lots of deer.  Ways to connect with Stephanie: Website                       www.stephmaley.com Instagram                    @lov2write FB                               https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=61565579387255 LinkedIn                     https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephswritings/ Threads                       https://www.threads.com/@stephlmaley About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, Greetings, everyone. We're glad you're with us again. You are listening to, if you didn't notice on your screen or whatever unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're with us. Another podcast episode today, and today, we're getting the opportunity to converse with Stephanie Maley, who lives in Georgia. She's had kind of an interesting career in a variety of different ways, but among other things, and one of the things that attracted me to invite her to come on the podcast is She's a relatively new author. Book was published just a few months ago, and we will, we will talk about that, I am sure, along with all the other things that that she's doing, and she has introduced us to a couple of other people who we hope will be on the podcast fairly soon. One is her goddaughter, who is in the Paralympics, and is going to be in the Paralympics here in the California area in a couple of years, because I don't think that all the water in the California area will evaporate by then, so she's a swimmer, among other things. Yeah, I know. Isn't that fun anyway. Stephanie, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Stephanie Maley  02:11 Oh gosh, thank you for having me. I I've read your books, and you know since we first talked, and I'm just really excited to be here. You're well, Michael Hingson  02:25 we're excited to have you. Well, thank you. Well, let's start, as I love to do, tell us kind of about the early Stephanie, growing up, and all that around Chattanooga in your case, so you never had dreams of going back to Chattanooga, huh? You're fine in Georgia. Stephanie Maley  02:43 Yeah, we really are. We okay? So, so I'll start at the beginning. So, yeah, was born in Chattanooga, Tennessee, and my birth father abandoned us right away. I was three months old, and my brother was two, and my daughter, my dad had just finished his residency, and so unfortunately, he had an affair, and he took her from radiology, and then they went on up to Sioux Falls, South Dakota. And so my mom had two children. My brother was two years older, and was a two year old, and I was three months old, and then eventually my mom remarried, and I guess the significant time of childhood my my stepfather raised us until I was about 15, and then they got divorced, and I played sports. I had a lot of anger and and I had sexual abuse in second grade, and then I had two men who groomed me and my teenage years. So I had a lot of anger, and I applied that to sports. I played fast pitch softball, and I was a catcher for probably 13 years, and then I played volleyball and basketball at school, so yeah, and then I went into I wanted to be a doctor, not probably full heartedly, and I didn't get into The college that I wanted to in Suwannee, Tennessee, and so I went into nursing school at University of Tennessee at Chattanooga and became a pediatric nurse in the hospital. Michael Hingson  04:32 Now, why Pediatric Nursing? Stephanie Maley  04:34 Specifically, I really love children. Always I just, I just love kids, and as a matter of fact, I almost didn't even continue because as a graduate nurse, I ended up being a camp nurse up in Suwannee, about an hour away from Chattanooga, and I had it. Everything go wrong. I mean, I thought it was going to get to study from my boards play with kids, it looked good on the resume. And unfortunately, like I said, everything went wrong, even to a death of a 12 year old. And I was responsible for, you know, everybody's health and but I had to hospital a child the first week I had everything from a torn cornea to dog bites to burns it, you know, two. I had to get two off of the campus for surgery. One had a grand mal seizure for the first time, and another one had an attendance that was about to rupture, and I got them off. So it was a very weird experience. And after the child who died was on a hike, and there was a waterfall, and he was at the back of the group, and ended up climbing up, barefooted, up this like embankment, and then he slipped and fell 60 feet. And I had three there were three counselors there, and one was a paramedic, and another one was a an EMT. And then I had sent them with kits, first aid kits, because this is back before cell phones or anything like that, and it was just horrible. And he had his brain was like an egg that had been broken. Part, just terrible. And I thought, good grief. I thought this was going to be easy. Would study, you know, and then go into nursing. And so I kind of started off a very rough way into my practice. Michael Hingson  06:50 Talk about baptism by fire, huh? Yeah, definitely. So what made you decide to stick with it? Because you obviously did, because you became a nurse, a pediatric nurse. I did. Stephanie Maley  07:04 I well. One of one of my instructors had really schooled me on, let's, let's get you published when you do this camp nursing. So research anything you can, and I want you to get published. So she was very aware of where I was, and after the accident, she recognized that was my camp, and so she called me at camp, and I was just a blubbering mess. I mean, we had Grief counselors were flown in, the bishops, I'm an Episcopalian. Bishops came to be there and this whole thing. And she calls and she says, Listen, I heard that was your camp, and that that child who died, and I want you to get on the horse, and I've got you a job. And this infant is really special. She's having her second liver transplant, and she's 12 months old, and she's in Pittsburgh, but she's going to be taken care of in Chattanooga. And so we want you, instead of keeping her intensive care unit, we're going to single nurse her in a room, you know, until she's able to go home, because she has an eight year old's liver in her 12 month old body, which means it's not covered. You know, her skin hasn't covered. It's gonna be a lot of wound care. She has a trach and, you know, blah, blah, blah. And, I mean, I was just crying the whole conversation, like, No way, I can't do that. I can't do that, you know, so I did, and I think I had those people who really supported me to do that, and the parents were fantastic, and I ended up working for about five and a half years there, and then my husband and I met and married and then moved because he had an agreement with his medical school at Mercer to work in a rural area for four or five years, and to where we live reminds me of Chattanooga. It has mountains, rivers, lakes, you know, but it's very small. So I did stick with it, but then I did burn out. I ended up being with a lot of children who had cystic fibrosis, and they wanted me with them when they died and so. So it was a candle that burned out pretty quickly, within about six years, I I just knew I was done. Michael Hingson  09:44 So what did you do after that? Stephanie Maley  09:47 Well, it turns out I got pregnant. All right, that's a start. Yes, I was actually working as a pediatric nurse. It was my husband's a pediatrician and. And we have a hospital where we live. But I didn't want to be known as Mrs. Dr maylie. And so I wanted to, I started working about 45 miles away, and it was a great experience, I have to say that. But I when I got pregnant, getting up at 430 just getting down there by six or 630 I was exhausted, so So then I became a full time mom. So, yeah, go ahead. Michael Hingson  10:34 What did you learn from all your nursing and so on with all the trauma and other things that were going on in the world for you, what did you learn that helped you to be a parent? Stephanie Maley  10:47 I think an understanding of, well, definitely an understanding of children, of healthy and non healthy children. And I think patience, there was a lot of, you know, a lot of that our older son, my first child, I knew there was some things a little different with him, and I think it, my nursing kind of prepared me in a way that I might not have been. I might have kind of like, what? What does this mean he won't participate, or he won't cooperate, you know? And when he was about three, and I think my nursing experience just gave me the patience and the fortitude to end up actually home educating him, and then even our second son. Michael Hingson  11:40 So they they did all their their educating at home. Stephanie Maley  11:45 Yes, they did. I because again, I saw something different about my older son, and I thought if he goes into the school system, they're not going to enjoy him. Enjoy it. And I didn't have words for it, but it just made sense. And we had about 100 families here who were home educating at the time. So we did science, Olympiad, spelling bees, geography bees, chess clubs, pe you know, all of that. And then I kept some other boys for a friend of mine when she worked once a week. So I had five boys every Thursday. So socialization wasn't an issue. Michael Hingson  12:22 So your son was different, but how so? Or what was the real difference? Or was there one? Stephanie Maley  12:31 Well, he just he again, was very if he was interested in the subject, he was great. But if he wasn't, it's like pulling your teeth out, and he just wouldn't, like, we had a playgroup at our church for three year olds, and that's where I first saw a difference, because again, he was just three, just the age of when you start kind of playing with other kids, and he would not do what we were trying to have the kids do like there was he was not going to do it like we had them gather nature like little things outside and put on a table, man that put paper over it and do a rubbing, and he was in the window sill with a car, and there was no way he was going To get over there, so he didn't participate or cooperate very well. Those were the two main things, but he had some other, you know, just some quirkiness, and, and, and it just made me think this was the right decision. Michael Hingson  13:37 Was there any kind of a medical diagnosis for any of that with him, or just he was the way he was. Stephanie Maley  13:44 He definitely was the way he was, and he we, we treated him like he had, add inattentive, not hyper, but just inattentive, you know. And my husband has that as well. So that's really what we kind of thought was going on with him well. Michael Hingson  14:09 And you know, everyone's different anyway. And the fact is that you learned through nursing and so on, how to be patient with that, which is probably a good thing, because you may very well not have had that perception if you hadn't gone through, yeah, the nursing and the other things that you went through, yeah, yeah, which is, which is pretty important to to be able to do. How about your your other son, your younger son? Stephanie Maley  14:37 Well, he was the other, other way around. He was a sponge. And one day, when I was well, we were having breakfast, and I had been teaching my older son at five how to read. Well, the three year old started reading and decoding the cereal box, and I'm like, what? And so I had him. In my lap, and I had some very basic books, and he he read them all. He was double learning everything, like what his brother was like. He my younger son has always loved Japan, and interestingly enough, he is engaged to a Japanese woman who lives in Osaka, and he lives in Hawaii for the past now, almost six years. So the younger son was the one speaking Japanese around the headless what? Michael Hingson  15:32 What took him to Hawaii. Stephanie Maley  15:36 He, you know, he really doesn't like cold weather, okay? He during covid, he decided that he wanted to go to Hawaii, see if he could make it work there, and if not, he would have a neat vacation, and then maybe he would go to California. He just really the temperature and the weather, and he's always been like that, just kind of sensitive to those kinds of things, and he made it work. I mean, it's expensive, and he had worked hard to be able to stay there, and it's just been amazing. He serves, he hikes, he has so many good friends, and he will not come back to see us. So we have to go to him, you know, but it's worth it. Michael Hingson  16:26 So what kind of work does he do? Stephanie Maley  16:29 He is a salesman. Now, he was, he started out in security, but he he is a salesman for a Polynesian fiber optic company that is, you know, for people's Wi Fi and that type of thing. So he believes in it, and he is really good as salesman's and he's become a manager. And I know you were a salesman, as I was reading your books, I was like, Yeah, John, Shawn, you know, my older son has that as well. You know, just those that trait. And you know, what is that person interested in? What are they missing? And how can I help? Help? Yeah, yeah. With this product, Michael Hingson  17:14 it's interesting though, that your younger son has a fiance who doesn't live anywhere near him. She lives in Osaka. That's quite a distance. It is. This is Stephanie Maley  17:24 the older son. And yeah, he's Oh, the older son. Yeah, they're working on their k1 visa. The plan is she's going to move to Hawaii, and when her parents get older, they'll move to Japan. Okay, so I've been learning Japanese in our Of course, oldest son has been in Japanese Japan many times, but he's trying to learn the language. She speaks English just, you know, slow, yeah, Michael Hingson  17:55 well, it's okay, yeah. And you get to be bilingual if you work at it, Stephanie Maley  18:01 I'm trying. I've been trying to do port. I've been learning Portuguese for five or six years. So then try legal. Well, we'll see. Yeah, if you were to have a conversation with me, I'd be like, wait a minute, slow, you know? Michael Hingson  18:18 Yeah, I took Japanese for a year in graduate school, and enjoyed it. And one of the things that I did to practice being a ham radio operator. I had a really good communications receiver, and oftentimes tuned into radio Japan and worked to understand at least a little bit, and eventually, a fair amount of what they were saying because they were speaking in Japanese, which is what I wanted. I didn't want the English version of it, and right, it was fun. I don't remember a lot of Japanese today, and I've been to Japan twice, let's see, TWICE, TWICE. But I I've enjoyed it and and had a lot of fun doing it. So it worked out well, and thundered. Second time was thunder dog was published in Japanese, and I went over and spent two, almost three weeks with the Japanese publisher of thunder dog. So that was kind of fun. Stephanie Maley  19:21 I read that. I was like, Oh my gosh, that's amazing. We have not been to Japan. We will end up probably we need teleporting to be a thing, yeah? Well, let's just get that out catching Michael Hingson  19:35 rod and, well, he's not alive anymore. Get on, yeah, yeah. But get somebody to develop the transporter. That would be good. Stephanie Maley  19:41 That would be awesome, yeah. Michael Hingson  19:45 So, anyway, so, so where is your older son these days? Stephanie Maley  19:52 Well, well, he's, he's the one in Hawaii. He's in Hawaii, yeah, the younger son is in Atlanta, so he's not too far from us. Okay? See, we get to spend time with he and his friends, and, you know, that's really nice. So he works at Emory, yeah, at the computer science department, kind of like, he's like, in the role of an accountant for all the professors and post grad students. Michael Hingson  20:20 So your but your older son again, dating a woman from Osaka that's kind of long distance. It's good. We have computers that allow for better communications these days, I bet. Stephanie Maley  20:31 Oh, it does. And they talk, you know, we have WhatsApp, and they talk, I think, every day. And he goes there as often as he can afford it. And, you know, and she and her family were just there in December visiting him. So, yeah, it's pretty cool. Very proud of them. Michael Hingson  20:50 Good for them. That's, that's pretty cool. So how old is your older son? Stephanie Maley  20:57 He is 32 okay, yeah, and the younger one is 30, all right. Michael Hingson  21:03 Well, it's been a while, that's pretty cool. Well, I'm glad that that it's working out well for them. And so what do you do with your Well, I know some of what you do with yourself, so let me, let me go about it this way, you've written a book. What made you finally decide that it was time to write a book, write a memoir or whatever, right? Stephanie Maley  21:29 Well, that's a good question. It really things started opening up for me internally when the ME TOO movement came out carry other women who'd gone through similar things or works, it just made it that shame kind of that door kind of open, saying, Okay, you might not need to carry this anymore. And so what I ended up doing is writing more of a bio, autobiography, and just telling and just getting it down. My professional editor at the time, Laura Munson, said, Listen, if you do that, you're going to write two different books. If you write the autobiography, and then you you're going to write a memoir. You know you're going to be writing two books, why don't you just do the memoir? And I said, I just have to get this down. I really need to just I've never really gotten my husband knew, but I really never shared any of it with anybody. And so I wrote it down, and then covid came, and I had just written again, the autobiography, and then covid hit, and that really changed my life. I hated it, for all the people who got sick with it, and, you know, it was terrible, and I knew people who died, but for me, it, it put me in a place where that creativity could come out, and that's when I then I had the time, and so I started the memoir and the and the reason I even did that was because I really hadn't, like tried to talk or confront my predators. And I know there was probably other women who had to go through what I went through. And I thought, well, then I'll write this memoir. I'd rather just be in my little office here in Northeast Georgia and not have to do anything else but send it out. But if I really want to reach as many people as possible, I knew I had to do it right. Instead of memoir, it was about a seven to eight year process. Michael Hingson  23:46 Well, so what is the difference between a memoir and an autobiography? Stephanie Maley  23:53 Well, an autobiography, you are telling, you're you're just telling everything, and you're not like showing, creating, like the movie in your head. I love the way you know it, because that's what I want. I want it to be a movie you can smell, taste, feel, you know, the whole whole thing in when you're when you're showing, but if you're telling, it's like, it's, it's very boring, and there's, you're not going to be invested in that, you know what? I mean, you're not going to be like feeling you're like, you're there, like you're with that protagonist. You just kind of be sitting back and saying, Oh, I see what that person sees. But in the showing, you're going to be right in the thick of it, as if you were at a movie. Michael Hingson  24:45 So your book no longer that girl is more of a memoir. Stephanie Maley  24:50 It is. It is a memo, okay? Yeah, it is. I talk about the past in a couple of chapters, and then I have a great life. I have a beautiful life today, and so I bring in the present as well, and then just talk about what it took for me to get to where I am today, you know, and and what the process was for me doesn't mean it's going to work for anybody else, but this is what this is what worked for me, and this is how I got to be where I am, and this is what happened to me as well. Michael Hingson  25:26 So it sounds like you've definitely dealt with and and gotten rid of a lot of the anger and other things that you were facing, the demons that you were facing before. Stephanie Maley  25:37 Yes, definitely. Michael Hingson  25:41 So writing certainly had to be kind of cathartic and helping to make that happen, I would assume, yes, I mean, and Stephanie Maley  25:48 you've done that yourself, I didn't expect that, but you're exactly right. I and also had a line editor who lives in tokoa and came from a magazine background, and I knew him, you know, but we were more acquaintances. So whenever he would go through my manuscript and the chapters, each chapter, when it got to be those, those really hard parts, that's when I would not write as well, you know, because I wanted to get through it, and I would tell it and not show it. And those would be the sentences he would pick up on. I'm like, Oh my gosh, do we have to and he was, he was so good about that. But it also forced me to go through, you know, that little girl talked to that little girl, you know, who's inside of me and those things happen to and be able to say, I have you, and I really want to know how you really felt, because, you know, I felt like I was to make everybody happy, you know, not hurt anybody, that kind of stuff, and especially the men who were groomed that. One of them was an Episcopal seminarian, and everybody treated him like he's the best thing. And I'm like, well, then something must be wrong with me, because everybody thinks he's this person. But this is what I get, you know, when people aren't around. So, so anyway, I forget now what the question was. I'm like, Oh, I just went off track. Michael Hingson  27:30 No, you're, you're, you're doing fine. We were talking about getting rid of the anger and Stephanie Maley  27:35 Right, right, right. So, yes, having to talk about that and write about it and polish it over and over and over. It's like desensitizing, you know, I mean, and then when I went to record it, that was a whole nother level, which I didn't, I just didn't even think about either. That very first day, there's a 20 something year old in the other room, I'm reading my book out loud, and I'm like, Oh my gosh, you know he's gonna know my entire life. And I didn't even think about that. And so it turns out he was great. He created a safe space. Man, it went really well, but it was another layer of healing. Michael Hingson  28:22 What does Mike think of all this? Stephanie Maley  28:26 He is very supportive. Oh, I'm sure he is very, very supportive. I mean, he's always been my safe space, and he has just been a rock. And when I've had, you know, again, difficult times in the process of writing. He's always there and supporting me. It's hard. He he wanted to read my book, but he's not been able to to, even though he knows it. It's just he hasn't been able to read Michael Hingson  28:57 my book. Yeah, I know when, when Karen was alive, if we if she happened to go with me or whatever, to do a speech, she didn't want to listen to the speech. It just brought out memories and so on and things for her. So she went off and did other things, which was fine, because I, I wouldn't want her to to be in any way traumatized or hurt, and she and the other part about it is especially when I was writing, especially thunder dog with Susie Flory and so on. And just in general, she she heard a lot of it, so she knew the story, but it was just not something that she wanted to deal with directly, and that's fine, yeah. Stephanie Maley  29:44 I mean, that's that is painful. I mean, when you got that first call off to her, you know, until you were able to talk to her again, that was a lot of trauma for her. I mean, what for you, for sure, but it was a lot of trauma for her. Her well. Michael Hingson  30:00 And you know, she made the decision after we talked, and then she turned on the TV and found out what was really going on, because we didn't know, of course, and she made the decision she had to do some things to maybe get the house a little bit more in order, and she actually had to get up and eat and all that, because, as she decided, one or two things is going to happen, he's not going to come home, or he is, and either way, she had to be ready, because also if I weren't coming home, or even if I did, but other people showed up, she needed to be able to deal with that. But I am sure even with all that, there was a lot of trauma and a lot that she had to deal with, or chose to deal with, because it's just kind of the way it was, right. Stephanie Maley  30:53 I mean, she loves you and Roselle, and, of course, the people you worked with, but she was, you know, not sure if you were coming home and that, yeah, and then, or if you were getting injured or, you know, it's just, it's trauma and and, yeah. So I understand her not wanting to, you know, to go through, live through that moment, or moments, you know, by going to your speeches. And the same with Mike, I totally understand sure you don't need to read it. That's okay. I told my boys, you definitely don't need to read it. Michael Hingson  31:27 If you want to, you can, Stephanie Maley  31:29 but you can. You're Yeah, you're adults, but I don't have expectations that you read my book. Michael Hingson  31:34 Yeah. Well, and so the first real, major thing that happened media wise, after the World Trade Center was being interviewed on the 14th, that Friday night on Larry King Live. And then people started showing up the next day, and they kept saying, oh, there's Mike Kingston, star of stage and screen. That really upset Karen. And I understand why. I mean, you know, come on, that's, that's not what this is all about, right, right? And, you know, we got very visible. I've never really talked about it much, but there were a couple people who, on a couple of email lists called me a media whore and all that sort of stuff. And other people immediately jumped in and went, Wait a minute, people. But you know, my my belief is, if I can help get people to have a better understanding, if I can help people move on from September 11, if I can help people grow in any way, that's what I'm supposed to do. And it's worked for the last 24 years, and it's going to continue to continue to work, because it's kind of the way it is, exactly, Stephanie Maley  32:45 well, it's again that was, you know, wasn't just even your own personal experience. I mean, it is, but it was so it was nationwide. Michael Hingson  32:58 Well, it was, and we got lots of phone calls because people wanted to hear and in a way, be involved with the story. And so many people from the media called to come and do interviews because it was a story that they felt needed to be told. And we made the choice pretty early on. If it would help people move on from September 11, if it would help people learn more about blindness and guide dogs and the real truth about it and and so on, then it was worth doing, and that's what we did. It was a very conscious decision, but it wasn't about me or anything else, although, you know, a lot of people, I'm sure, didn't think of it that way, but it wasn't so, Stephanie Maley  33:45 but people could latch on to that, and it's such a great story. You know what I mean? I mean so many people you know didn't make it out seeing or not seeing, but, but you did, and you don't have your sight, you have your dog, Roselle, who doesn't panic and you're as a sometimes she does well with funders, but she was cool that day, yeah, Michael Hingson  34:09 well, and again. But the issue is that it's a team effort, and that's one of the strong messages that we try to convey everywhere we have the opportunity to do. So it's a team and it was a team effort, and it's always a team effort. And so we we work on it, and, you know, I will continue to do that, because I think it makes sense to do, and will, will live a better life because of it. I learned every time I do a speech, I feel I'm learning a fair amount, especially when it's rare now, but when people ask a question I've never thought of, yeah, that's always so much fun. Stephanie Maley  34:52 Yeah? I mean exactly, it changes it up and it makes you really go deeper. Michael Hingson  34:58 So have you done any speech? Working since the book was published. Stephanie Maley  35:02 Yeah, I we, I did a, I created a panel of Georgia authors who we all also had the same publisher. She writes press, and we did a bookstore in Chattanooga together, and we were all different genres. And so, which really, to me, makes it so much more interesting. And we were like, how did we Why did we take what we had and put it into a story or into a book? So it was like telling your story and then putting it in a book, and why? So we had historical fiction. We have drama from courtroom drama is another author, and it's a series, and I've told her I read her two books. I'm like, Please tell me you have the third book written. You're working on the fourth. And she is. She's a lawyer and a judge, and then the other one is nonfiction, but where she went and taught in Africa and at the girls school, trying to get the girls from the tribe to get educated and change that cycle. And then she went back and interviewed these women after they had become adults to see what they were doing, and they were like pediatricians they were doing in, you know, NGO stuff, just incredible things with their education. So they're all different and very interesting. So we've done that. We're trying to get into other bookstores around the Atlanta area, and we're going to be doing one in agworth, Georgia. But it is not easy. I mean, you have a huge platform, so I don't know if, but it's getting these rejections. And now that my book was published in November, it's kind of like, well, that's a little old now, Michael Hingson  37:01 which is ridiculous. It's not, but, yeah, it's Stephanie Maley  37:04 not, but it is in that field. And I guess there's so many people writing these days that so that's what I'm working on right now, is trying to get some more places we can be on a panel. Because again, I think it's much more interesting, you know, than just me talking about mine. And so we're working on, we're definitely working on that, but we have two and then we're, we've been turned down twice for in Decatur Georgia. And I'm like, oh, gosh, why is it so hard? But it is. Michael Hingson  37:39 Yeah, it's hard to understand sometimes, isn't it? Stephanie Maley  37:44 Yes, and I'm hoping to volunteer at a child advocacy place here in tocoa that is constantly busy and has It's all designed for children who've been abused or raped or whatever, and they have everything set up for recording and the kit and all that very done pediatric wise. And so I'm waiting to hear from the executive director on how I can help maybe give speeches and talk. You know, give talks, and my book would be, I think, a very good resource for the parents as well. So I'm hoping to do that in addition, that's I'm just waiting to hear back. Michael Hingson  38:29 Well, you wrote this book, but had you written, had you done any writing before? Or was this just a whole new thing? Or, what Stephanie Maley  38:40 a good question. I I wrote journals. I started that in high school. I went to a Catholic High School, and one of the priests taught a class like just an extra class you can take as a senior. And it was on called spiritual journal, and he talked to us about keeping a journal. So I started then, and I kept a journal, and I wrote, I don't know how many books, 40 something, so that's really what I had done with my writing, and I did well in English, but that this is really the first big thing. But when that child died at camp, we still had two more weeks to go, and it was so hard, and we were flown to his funeral in Memphis and all that, but I wrote a poem right then and there to express my feelings. So I think I had, I had that potential. I just really didn't work on it. And it was, you know, but it was, it's the comfort of getting stuff out, you know. I wish I had leaned on it, maybe even more, but I did, but I did in journals, but I did, like I said. It a poem. Is what came to me after that accident and where he died. Michael Hingson  40:04 Have you thought of maybe taking some of those journals, or taking things from those journals and maybe writing another book? Stephanie Maley  40:12 Well, I tell you what, Mike that I want to write another memoir. It's flesh tearing. Yeah, I and I have, I did get rid of a lot of those, which I wish I hadn't. I do have still some. I'm actually waiting for the muse. I would like to write another book and write it as a fiction, probably with a strong female protagonist. I don't know if you know, I've always wanted to be like, I think I would be a stunt I could be a snack car driver. And I thought, what if I wrote about a teenager who, again, it's more of a tomboy thing, but if she wanted to be a stunt car driver? And, you know, just, I don't know why a book. I really don't know, but I'm kind of waiting for that news. But there's, I have ideas. I just need to get a coerced, you know, coalesced. Michael Hingson  41:08 Well, if you write a book about a Stunt Car Driver, then maybe you should try it for a little while to get the experience. You know, that makes even a more interesting Stephanie Maley  41:18 story, doesn't it? It would instead of interviewing somebody, but yeah, well, I'm really, I'm really comfortable behind the wheel. The more that you know, as long as I can move going through Atlanta with the five lanes or so is nothing. And I enjoy it. It's relaxing. And I transfer lanes depending on speed, and I've had people I've had to dodge. I remember even as a teenager, I had to do a 180 to miss somebody, and I completely forgot about it in like, within minutes. It was no big deal. So anyway, I'm very comfortable behind the wheel, and I think I could do well, but I like your idea. Michael Hingson  42:02 I recall one time it was fairly soon after we moved to New Jersey, and we and I was working in New York, we drove into the city from our home, and we were just coming out of the tunnel, and I knew where we had to go, and I had told Karen, but I think she forgot, or maybe didn't understand. And you know, she said we're coming out of the tunnel, and I said, now you need to make a left turn here to get to where we need to go. And she had forgotten that, and suddenly the car went across three lanes of traffic to make the turn, and she was so proud of herself and the rest of her life. She talked about the fact that she went across those three lanes and not one single person honked at her. There you go, Karen. She said that just showed what kind of a good driver she was. It was so funny. Oh my Stephanie Maley  43:09 gosh, yeah, I like to go. I go about five miles above the speed limit in town and about nine on the highway and and I don't like back roads. I feel like I can't breathe, you know, I need to be in the open highway. Michael Hingson  43:24 Well, in this case, it was, it was like five in the afternoon, but coming out of the tunnel, the traffic was moving Okay, where we were. So she was very proud of herself. I was too i But yeah, she was a very observant person. We had some people with us in our car once, and they were they were saying, I'd never want to be in a taxi, because you could just see the taxis just driving real crazy. And Karen said something very interesting. She said to these people, look at those cabs. Do you see any dents or dings or marks on the cabs Exactly? And and they said no. And she said, There you go. They're they're very clever and careful drivers. They know what they're doing. Yes. And again, I, I think that's pretty clever, and that was pretty smart of her to have observed Stephanie Maley  44:20 that exactly, because they do know what they're doing. They're good drivers. They just do it in a faster pace than a lot of other drivers. And I literally can't ride with someone who's going to drive below the speed limit or, like, really, but I can't do it. I just, I rather, I'll just drive it myself. Just, you know, Michael Hingson  44:43 it could be a New York so you could be a New York, New York cab driver. That's almost like, that's almost like stunt driving. Stephanie Maley  44:49 It is, you know, that is a good point. They are like Stunt Car drivers. I actually drove through New York City with the family, and we had this hubcap. It kept coming off. I was taking a left, and there were police, like, across the street, and there goes that hubcap. And my husband like, I'm like, get it, honey. And he lowered the window and tried to reach down to get it, but it was he didn't, but the policeman did. And I'm like, gosh, wouldn't that have been cool if my husband could have swooped that? Michael Hingson  45:26 Gosh, yeah, it's, it's pretty funny. Well, you know, I think I tell people all the time out here, I don't see why I can't get a driver's license and drive around Victorville, because the way these people drive, I'm sure I would do just as well as they do, but exactly no one believes me. I I have driven a Tesla, Stephanie Maley  45:53 oh, what do you think of that? Michael Hingson  45:55 I thought was pretty interesting. You know, it was in co pilot mode, so I was able to do it, and the driver was, you know, the the owner of the car was there. But I, I'm waiting for the day that driving will be taken out of the hands of drivers, because there are too many people who just think they own the road and they don't, right. Stephanie Maley  46:13 I agree with that. I I don't know how I will do in that kind of a car that does it for me. Because for me again, I feel like I'm a pretty good driver. So that's insulting, because I know what I'm doing, but I do hear also what you're saying, and I think it would be so helpful for not just people who are blind, but people elderly, you know, who don't need to be behind the wheel, I think so Michael Hingson  46:42 many drivers, you know, in general, of all ages. Because the reality is, we don't pay attention to the details that we need to pay attention to anymore. And so once autonomous vehicles get to the point where they can truly do this safely, consistently all the time. I think it makes perfect sense to do we're not there yet, but the day will come when autonomous vehicles will be a lot more perfected, and it will happen. How soon remains to be seen, but it will happen, right? Stephanie Maley  47:17 Oh, I think it will too now I want a flying I agree, yeah, I because I love, like I'm a drone pilot, especially when they first came out. I mean, I've been doing it for a long time. I'm certified, but I just think I would just, I always just want to fly, yeah, it'd be a blast. Michael Hingson  47:40 Oh, I think it'll be cool. You know, there have been some flying cars, but it's not very common. And again, I think most people would not do it necessarily, extremely well, because they don't pay attention to the details that they need to pay attention to. But the autonomy will come and that will that will do it. It's like so many things, but it's like AI, right? Keep people complaining about AI, but it will get better. I don't believe that AI will ever replace humans. I don't think that it will be able to ever keep up with humans, but it's a tool, and it will do a lot of things, but it's not going to be the end of everything as we know it. Stephanie Maley  48:20 Yeah, and I remember reading, you know, in your books about that in your background. And for some reason, when I was probably 1920 I was terrified of computers and what they could me. And so, you know, I'd watched, I mean, I'd read George Orwell's 1984 1984 before 1984 and, you know, Mr. Roboto, the song that came out. And I was like, that is gonna be it. So it's so funny, it's in my book that it actually got me into counseling. I was on the governing body at our church at a very young age. I was 20. It's called a vestry in the Episcopal Church, and there was discussion about our church getting a computer. During the discussions, I would remove myself, because I just it was irrational. I had this irrational feeling. Well, they had voted that we would, and one Sunday after church, I told our priest I needed to talk to him, and so he met me in his office. Well, if you get a we get a computer and it's smashed. You'll know who did it. He's like, let's sit down for a minute. He said, I think that this has this. This really doesn't have to do with the computer. I think something else going on here. I think we need to talk about therapy and so. That started my therapy was that very thing I Michael Hingson  50:04 remember reading 1984 and actually a couple of years ago, I went to a hotel, and the room number I was assigned was 101 Do you know the significance of room 101, that was, that was where the brainwashing took place. That's where they, they took you to control you always, always loved it. And said, I'm in room 101, I can Stephanie Maley  50:34 scream when you embrace that more than you know, yeah, you know, in photography and in which I do as well, and then in writing, you know, AI is there. And as you know, I wasn't sure you were real when you were trying to contact me, because I and I'm sure you do too. You get all these, inundated by these, oh, your book is this. And I think you I could do this for you, and they're AMI generated, you know, it's, I mean, it's crazy how, you know, which is not, you know, obviously, there's always gonna be people using it for good stuff, and, you know, for Not so good stuff, that's Michael Hingson  51:21 always going to happen. It is and like AI, there are going to be some people who will misuse it, but I think in the long run, there are enough smart people that will will keep that pretty much under control. Some people are going to misuse it, but that's going to be their lot in life to deal with over time. Stephanie Maley  51:44 Yeah, that's true. And yeah, so I'm trying to, I mean, there are people in Chattanooga who are shocked that I have computers from that memory of that time. But yeah, I, I know people are saying, If I don't get into it, Claude or any of that stuff, that I'm going to get way behind, like some people who chose not to really do computers, you know, and now they're lost. Michael Hingson  52:17 Well, I think there's, there's merit in doing it. I think you will find that there are many good tools that that you can use it as a part of so it is something to do, but it's like everything. It's going to be what you make of it. I mean, people, people, long time ago, were pessimistic about penicillin, about microscopes, about even having your picture taken that would steal your soul. I mean, there are so many things, yeah, but the reality is, I think God doesn't really let us invent things that aren't, aren't good for us, but you know, if we, if we misuse them, we're going to have to be the ones that deal with that down the line at some point. That's true. That's true. Well, when you wrote the book, you wrote it during covid. Do you think you would have written it If covid hadn't come along? Were you just ready to write it? I'm gonna Stephanie Maley  53:15 hold it up too for a second. You know, that is a very good question. I I I would think that I would have, but it might have taken a bit longer, because I was on, you know, the running wheel like a rat. I was playing pickleball three times a week, active, doing things at church and just a bunch. I mean, I just kept on the wheel, and that covid just opened that door. But the fact that it, I had already written the autobiography, and it was on my mind and in my heart, I would have, but it might have been, it would have probably been later. Michael Hingson  53:58 But you also, with covid, you have the time Stephanie Maley  54:02 it gave me, the time it shut everything down. And I, I mean, I stayed at home for a year and a half. My husband was a, you know, again, a pediatrician. And actually, that's the first part of my book. Is I panicked. I once we heard from Italy and all the people who are dying, and they're like, it's coming to you, and we don't know about it. And my husband's a healthcare provider, and I was a nurse, I'm just like, what is going to happen? I'm I'm actually going to die, is what's going to happen. And I'm like, I need to write my funeral plans, and it just one day, all that, all that past vulnerability, vulnerability I hadn't dealt with, just came rushing at me, and so oddly, my therapist was the one who came up with what we needed to do to feel safe. I had called i. Um, the CDC, and was on hold for an hour trying to talk with a person and say, hey, my my husband's a health caregiver. What should we do to keep me because I have asthma, what you know, and I didn't get any help from them. But she said, yeah, have him change his clothes, put it in the dryer, take a shower, stay away from each other, where, you know, wear a mask, and once I felt safe is when I got down to writing. Michael Hingson  55:30 There you go. Yeah, you talked earlier about doing a lot of sports growing up. Do you think that was because of the anger and so on, or why did you do a lot of sports? Stephanie Maley  55:41 Well, I do. Well, that's, again, a very good question. My parents must have seen something in me, and they signed me up for softball when I was seven. So this was 1969 I know. So 1969 I'm playing the sport and and I loved it. I just fell in love with it and, and it did give me a socially acceptable way to express my anger. I'm a girl. I'm in the south girls, don't, you know, don't act like this, right? This is the way they're supposed to act. And softball initially was like, I said, I played at a very young age, made, made a way for me to get that stuff out. And, you know, I didn't understand it, and I would scare myself sometimes, but it was there, and I could just hit that ball harder or throw that runner out faster, and it just became and then I played squash for 10 years. And yeah, I'm just in pickleball. And so yeah, Michael Hingson  56:54 Pickleball is fairly new compared to a lot of these things, isn't it? Stephanie Maley  56:58 It is in a way, and again, in another way, it started in the 50s in Washington, though, yeah, what we didn't and Washington state is where it started with these, this family, and they came up with this thing to have fun. And I guess I started playing about eight years or so ago, and I used to compete in tournaments. But if I'd never heard of it, and it was in the county, one county over, and a friend said, Hey, I've heard of this game, I think you would really enjoy it. And I did, because I have, again, muscle memory, and I have really good coordination and but I've had to have three, not because of that, but I've had three foot surgeries, and so I've been out of it for two years right now, and I'm hoping to get back. I just had surgery a few months Michael Hingson  57:52 ago, again, who have you been kicking? That's what we wanted. No, that's it. Stephanie Maley  57:58 I have a session for you, if you don't mind. Nope. Okay, so you know you have had a lot of dogs, and have had to say goodbye to a lot of dogs that you just loved. Well, we just lost our I call her my outdoor dog because I was very allergic to her, and she stayed outside on Tuesday. How do you process that grief? Michael Hingson  58:26 Well, so what? What I tell people? Because I've been asked this before, and I've thought about it a lot. With every guide dog, you're creating a team, and you're both part of the same team. I am supposed to be the team leader. The dog wants me to be the team leader, and I have to accept that responsibility. But the the part about that, that you're dealing with is that there comes a time that maybe the dog isn't doing as well, the dog isn't seeing as well, or the dog is just not doing as well as it did. Doesn't mean it's ready to die, but there comes a time that you have to make a decision for the team. In the case of Guide Dogs, it means applying to get a new guide dog and starting to think about retiring the old guide dog. And I do things to prepare for retirement by maybe not using the dog as much and other things like that, but even with with pets, the fact of the matter is, it's, it's a mental thing as much as anything, and you do have to recognize that that time comes with pets, that that they are going to get older, and what what you need to do is to take steps to recognize that this time is coming. Usually you have a fair amount of time to prepare. A lot of people don't, and so suddenly the the animal has to be put down or whatever. And people don't take the time in advance to prepare mentally for it. And you know, that's one of the things that that they have to and should deal with. And so for me, it's a mental preparation. When my seventh guide dog, Africa started not seeing as well at night as she used to, and starting to walk a little slower, I knew that it was time to start the process. It was a year before Africa actually retired, but during that time, and knowing I had that time, we didn't take her to as many places and things like that and and other things, just to kind of recognize that what we had to do was to prepare for the fact that that something would happen. Now, the other part about it was that we already had Africa's mother, Fantasia, which you read about and live like a guide dog. And Fantasia was my wife service dog. Fantasia figured out how to do that, and we had Fantasia, and we were going to get a new guide dog. So we also decided that it would be a little bit difficult to have three dogs around the house, especially since two of them would be home with Karen in a wheelchair the whole time, and she had started to contract rheumatoid arthritis by then. So we we contacted Africa's parents. Her, her original the puppy raisers, yeah, because they had said, If we ever retired Africa and couldn't keep her, they wanted her, and they came one day, and they got her. Now, we visited with them after that several times, but still, the fact is that, you know we it was not hard, by comparison, to make that change and let Africa go to live with them. So you know it happens, but it's mental preparation, and the thing to do is, when you know something is going to happen, at some point, you start preparing for it. Stephanie Maley  1:02:06 Yeah, well, thank you for that. Yeah. Definitely had anticipatory grief, because she, she just got cancer, she's 15, you know, a couple of months ago. So we had on the prednisone and and and it was time, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you know it was the thing to do for sure, yeah, it's just yeah. It's just hard. And every time I was reading about your dogs, I'm like, Oh my gosh, that's so hard. And of course, you do know that dogs that you're typically using against guide dogs are they're going to live about 10 years their labs and stuff. Is that about fair? Michael Hingson  1:02:47 Well, they're going to work about eight years. They'll live more than 10 my longest living guide dog was Holland, who lived until he was 15 and a half and but mostly they'll live longer, but they'll have to retire at some point. And yes, yes, you know that's that's part of the issue. But again, it doesn't matter if it's a guide dog or not. Got regular pets ought to be more treated more like members of the family, like teammates, establish a relationship with them. Yes, it's very important to do that. Stephanie Maley  1:03:24 Yeah, well, even though I couldn't pet her, her name was Annie, I couldn't pet her. If I did, I had to go right inside and watch. He knew that we walked 95% of the time every day, like 95% every day for 15 years. And you know, we but if I tried to kiss her, she's like, No, don't you know you're allergic to me. Turn her face. Martin girl, really great relationship. Michael Hingson  1:03:54 Yeah. So what's your favorite movie? Stephanie Maley  1:03:58 Oh, gosh. So it used to be ordinary people. Do you remember that one at all? Southern London? Yeah, and I think I've wrecked because it was it would help me to cry, because there were years I couldn't cry. And it's that part where one brother lives and the other one doesn't, and when he comes to realize that his guilt is because he survived, that would undo me every time. Now I'm leaning more into comedy, and even though there's a lot of bad language, have you ever seen or listened to the movie spy with Melissa McCarthy. I haven't, oh my gosh, Michael Hingson  1:04:47 I'll find it holy. So she's so funny. Stephanie Maley  1:04:51 She is so funny. And I mean, it's a, it's a, the name is so generic, but if you look for it with Melissa McCarthy, yeah. It is so funny that it undoes me laughing. And I'm leaning more into that. It's good for you, not an intellectual maybe, but it's so much fun. You know, movies Michael Hingson  1:05:13 don't have to be intellectual, Stephanie Maley  1:05:14 yeah, no, they don't. It's entered. I like it for entertainment. Michael Hingson  1:05:19 Well, if people want to reach out and talk to you or commiserate or share or whatever. How do they do that? Stephanie Maley  1:05:26 Well, they could go to my website, Steph, maily.com, Michael Hingson  1:05:31 So, S, T, E, Stephanie Maley  1:05:33 P, H, M, a, l, e, y, E, y.com, yeah, and they could. They could send me a message if they want to get on to my newsletter. They could do that. I'm on sub stack, excuse me as steps writings, and I'm actually on social media as steps writings, in on Instagram as well as Facebook, to hear from anybody. And again, what a delight to spend this time with you. I'm so glad that I finally really paid attention and said, Yes, I'm glad Michael Hingson  1:06:10 you did too. We're really happy that you were here. We're really grateful that all of you listened to this episode, and I hope that you picked up some really good nuggets of wisdom and life philosophy from it, and you'll reach out to Stephanie. You're welcome to reach out to me. I'm easy to find. It's speaker, S, P, E, A, k, e, r at Michael hingson, M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com, speaker at Michael hingson.com, and I would also say that if you know anyone who ought to be a guest on our podcast, we'd love it if you'd introduce us. We're always looking for for people to come on. As I mentioned at the beginning, Steph has actually got us in touch with a couple people, and we're gonna we'll have them on, and we'll probably talk about Stephanie. What can I say? Oh no, oh yeah, but I want to thank you again. Stephanie, this has been absolutely wonderful. We are so glad that you spent some time with us today. Stephanie Maley  1:07:10 Absolutely thank you so much. I appreciate it. Michael Hingson  1:07:17 Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others. I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening. Keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. You yo

What happens when you finally understand yourself after decades of feeling different? I sit down with Randi-Lee Bowslaugh as she shares her journey through autism diagnosis, mental health struggles, and loss, and how she turned those experiences into writing, advocacy, and purpose. You will hear how she navigated depression, chronic pain, and family trauma while raising a daughter with autism, and why self-advocacy became her most powerful tool. I believe you will find this conversation both honest and encouraging as it shows how understanding your story can help you move forward with strength and clarity. Highlights: 00:01:35 – Discover how early signs of autism can be missed in childhood 00:06:54 – Understand how chronic pain and fibromyalgia impact daily life 00:08:23 – Learn what a late autism diagnosis reveals about identity 00:12:54 – Discover why autism appears to be increasing but isn’t 00:35:18 – Learn the real challenges of raising a child with autism 00:58:26 – Discover why self-advocacy is the most important skill to build Bottom of Form About the Guest: Randi-Lee was born and raised in Ontario, Canada and from a young age she had a passion for helping others. She attended Niagara College and graduated at the top of her class from Community and Justice Services, after completing her placement at a recovery house for alcohol and drug addictions. Post-graduation she worked at a Native Friendship Centre for two and a half years while pursuing a university education in psychology. Randi-Lee continued working in social services for another four years as an employment counselor until she left to pursue her other passions. Randi-Lee is an author and outspoken advocate for mental health sharing her true story with honesty. From the age of 14 she struggled with depressive thoughts. There were times in her life that she wasn’t sure how she would continue. Depression continues to be a battle in her life but she is glad that she continues to live. She has spoken at events that promote wellness and compassionately shares her experiences with her own mental health. In 2021 she started a YouTube channel, Write or Die Show, to spread awareness about various mental health issues and to end the stigma associated with mental health. Growing up she never felt that she fit in, being the last to understand jokes and confused about many emotions that she saw on others. In 2021 she finally had answers to the questions about herself that had been nagging at her. She was diagnosed with moderate Autism. Another of Randi-Lee’s passions is kickboxing, which she did for about 10 years. She was a Canadian National Champion in kickboxing in 2015, competed at the World’s Kickboxing tournament later that year and 2016 competed at the Pan-Am Games, where she received silver in her division. In 2020 she was chosen as one of the coaches for the Ontario Winter Games where she inspired and coached young athletes. Randi is a mom to two; her youngest child has autism and she is a grandma to one. Randi encourages and supports her youngest child's entrepreneurial spirit as he follows his dream of being an artist. When she can, she incorporates his art into her stories. Ways to connect with Randi-Lee: Websites: http://www.rbwriting.ca My Books https://amzn.to/3LNbuCy Write or Die: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSTmVQUW8K8r1sBDchLyTwA?sub_confirmation=1 What I'm Reading https://open.spotify.com/show/4kMt8h95cfD3idamZ5LJZK?si=189fc2f901124993 Merch Store https://write-or-die-show.creator-spring.com Facebook https://www.facebook.com/rbwriting Instagram https://www.instagram.com/randileebowslaugh TikTok https://www.tiktok.com/@randileebowslaugh SubStack https://randileebowslaugh.substack.com/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone. I am Michael Hingson, the host of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet today. Which one do we get mostly unexpected? Which is anything that doesn't directly have to do with inclusion or diversity, but you never know where we might go with it all. So we'll see anyway. Our guest today is Randy Lee Bowslaugh, who actually was on our podcast well now years ago, as a result of one of the pot of Palooza episodes. And we kind of re encountered each other, because we both Sarah publicist Mickey Mickelson, who I sent an announcement to, saying, Tell everybody you record, that you that you serve, that we're always looking for podcast guests. And guess who showed up? There's Randy Lee. So here we are. Yeah, I know, isn't it great? So here we are. And Randy Lee, welcome. Well, we'll call you Randy right to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  01:58 Thanks. I am so glad to come back. And I find it funny that I also, you know, send Mickey the hey, my podcast is looking for guests, and who comes on my show. Will you Michael Hingson  02:11 turn about spare play? Randy is, among other things, an author, and we're going to talk about some of those books and so on. But let's start like I love to do tell us about kind of the early Randy growing up. 02:23 Well, the early Randy back in the day time Michael Hingson  02:27 ago, in a galaxy far, far away. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  02:30 Yes, this feels like it now. So I mean growing up, I guess I would say, I would say I was your typical kid, but looking back and knowing what I know now, I was definitely not a typical child. But yeah, I loved the same things both most kids do, playing in the mud and writing. Yep, loved writing at the young age, making movies, all that jazz. And then as I got older into my teen years, that's when, that's when I dealt with some depression that just keeps following me around. Yep. And then graduated high school, went to college, graduated from that couple times. How come? A couple times? Well, I took the first program I took. It was called pre community services. So by the time I had to actually apply to college, it was like two months before college would start. There wasn't a lot of options left open. So I kind of picked something that I'm like, Okay, it's still open. Looks kind of interesting. So I went with that, but it was just like a one year certificate program. And so from that, I was like, hey, I need to figure out a real program to take. So I looked around and I found one that had a lot of similar classes, because they didn't want to do a lot of repeat of stuff. So I took community and Justice Services, which was a lot of fun. Never thought that was going to be what I took, but I did from there. Learned psychology was amazing, so I took some university psychology and got into social service work for a few years before I was like, oh my goodness, the amount of governmental red tape. Here I am out, Michael Hingson  04:16 and we should explain Randy is from Canada. Yes, originally Toronto, right. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  04:22 No, Toronto's about, no, Toronto's about two hours north of me. What town I am in? Michael Hingson  04:31 Welland. Welland, okay, is that? But that where you're from originally? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  04:35 Well, I grew up in St Catherine's, which is still the same region as well, and so well and is part of how many we got 12 municipalities, something like that, called the Niagara region. And we encompassed Niagara Michael Hingson  04:49 Falls, got it. So anyway, you You went off and did this other program in college. Then what did you do? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  05:01 So from there, I was like, I'm going to be a probation officer. That's what I decided I was going to be. But at that time, you needed to have a bachelor's degree. So I started doing University and of course, by the time I was burnt out from social services, they had changed, and you didn't need a bachelor degree anymore, but I was over it, and I didn't want to do it anymore. Yeah, awesome, awesome. So I worked, I worked as an employment counselor at two different spots for a total of, I want to say, around six ish years, give or take, before, yeah, before I burnt out and went, Oh, my goodness, I am done with social services. Through like government agencies, I can do a lot more help. And just talking to people about my story or writing about it, I can be a lot more useful. Yeah. So, yeah, I stopped. I quit there at that time, I also had cancer. So that's fun, no fun, right? It was, it was not a good time at all. But you can ask me more about that after one train of thought at a time, or else I'll get totally distracted. So from there, I was actually a personal trainer. Had my own little business for a while there doing personal training and kickboxing, because I was competing, competing in kickboxing. 06:28 Tell me about I'm I don't know much about kickboxing. Tell me about that. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  06:33 Yeah, so I started doing that. Oh, many moons ago. Now it feels like and what is it exactly? It is kicking and punching people. Well, okay, yep, all right, now we know the kind of person you are. Okay, exactly. There's different styles. So, like, there's depending what style of it you do is going to depend on the rules, but basically, you're kicking and punching people in the front of their body, from the knees up to the head. Got it basically, for the most part. There. There's a few variations of rules depending if you're doing like k1 or low kick or whatever. So yeah, that was that was awesome. I competed nationally a couple times. I went to worlds. I went to the pan Americans. It was so much fun. I keep telling my husband, one day I'm going to do it again, and he keeps telling me to remember that my body is broken now. It's broken now. Yeah, it's a few years ago, probably, I guess it would have been around 2022 when covid started to release its hold on Canada, because we took forever, I started getting all these aches and pains, and there were days that I literally couldn't get myself up off the ground. It was, it was ridiculous. So lots of doctor's appointments, lots of testing, and so there is arthritis in both my sacroiliac joints, which are pretty important when you're kickboxing, because that's your hips, and that's how you move. So really hard. When the doctors tell you don't, don't, you know, jostle those more because, you know, that's where it already is. And I'm like, oh, cool, cool. And then, and then Fibromyalgia was the other diagnosis they gave me. So there's just days that I don't really want to move much I've been getting for the past year and a half now, been getting nerve ablation. So that is basically when they stick really long needles into your spine, like between your vertebraes, into your nerves, and they burn them so that they don't send pain signals to your brain. Yeah, that's, that's the easy version Michael Hingson  08:49 of it. Well, maybe with all this pain, it's time to go into chess, right? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  08:53 I mean, I, I was in chess club in grade eight. I know how to play it. I'm good at it anymore. Michael Hingson  09:01 Well, well anyway, as I recall, you got diagnosed with autism also, right? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  09:09 Yes, I did. So remember I was like, Hey, I thought I was a typical kid, but really I was not. That explains it. I was. How was it manifested? Michael Hingson  09:19 How do you manifest that it was different and you weren't really typical, even though you thought you were Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  09:24 well, I feel like first when, when you're living it and people aren't telling you different, you don't realize that anything is different. Because I did well enough at school. I had some friends, but where I went to school, specifically, it was very small school, and there was like five girls in my class, so basically you were all forced to just be friends with each other. And it wasn't until, as we got older and they started, I remember this one year, I think it was like grade five, and they're all talking about having dates to the Fun Fair, which is just like a. Little carnival, and they all want to have dates. And I'm like, why? I don't why. But it was things like that where I was like, as I got older, you could kind of see more, but when I was younger, manifested a lot in sensory overload. That ended up in meltdowns and yelling and screaming and people telling my mom, oh, you need to discipline her more. She's just spoiled. My mom's like, I didn't tell her no, so I don't know what you're talking about. Michael Hingson  10:29 So how old were you when you were finally properly diagnosed? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  10:35 I'm 38 now. I'm gonna say 3233 Michael Hingson  10:41 interesting, pretty recent. I've talked to a number of people on this podcast who were diagnosed as being on on the autism spectrum, if you will, or having autism in their adult lives. And they they kind of a lot of them say, well, we noticed that there was something different about me, but I didn't know what it was, and they were very uncomfortable, but eventually realized that, well, not realized, but discovered through diagnosis, that they had autism. And you know, obviously the part of the issue is we're better at it now than we used to be. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  11:20 Yes, that is a huge part. I will say I totally have those same feelings more as a teenager, the older I got, the further away from your typical teenager, and the more I could tell I didn't really fit in, right, like I didn't understand their little inside jokes. I didn't understand again, the whole dating thing. So things like that where you're like, well, you're 15, you should be going out doing that. I'm like, Can I just stay home and go to bed? I'm in bed by 10. Why would I go out? I have a routine, and that's not typical of a teenager. So I definitely felt it more the older I got, as opposed to when I was really little. And I think a big thing with the late diagnosis is it happens a lot more with females. A lot of what, yeah, a lot of what they like, researched and stuff. When autism first became a thing, it was all in boys. So all the research and all their kind of stuff is all based around how a boy would show it. So boys are more likely to rock back and forth, say as their STEM, whereas girls were more likely to maybe. So I have a little piece of Lego here that I'm playing with. We're more likely to do things that are more easily hidden. So we're still doing the same thing, but we're doing it in a smaller way so that, you know, it's not as noticeable. And people are like, Okay, well, that's, that's not big, so that's not a big deal. And girls are also more likely to, you know, a feminine quality is being quiet and staying to yourself. So when girls are just quiet and reserved, well, that's just feminine. So you're fine not Oh, you don't know how to interact in the social situation, so you don't want to talk like you don't know what to say. You are confused, right? It's perceived very differently, Michael Hingson  13:17 yeah, and I have heard that before from from from people. I didn't know it, but I've heard it from several people on this podcast, and I appreciate it, and it's important to know but, but I think that people keep talking about how autism is on the increase, and I wonder how much that really is true, as opposed to how much better we are at diagnosing it now, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  13:41 I think that's exactly what it is, is we're better at diagnosing it. I don't think it's necessarily on an increase. I think it's always been there. Because, like, I really should have been diagnosed back in the 90s, yeah, right. Like everybody my age who's getting diagnosed now would have been diagnosed in the 90s, but they weren't as good at it. They didn't know what to look for, and so now that we they know more what to look for, and we can a lot of times articulate for ourselves, like when they're asking me then the psychologist was asking me the questions I can articulate for myself, what I was like, how I felt, how I learned to figure out how To cope. Because by the time you're older, you've learned ways to just figure it out. You've had no choice. Doesn't mean it's been easy, but you've had no choice but to figure it out. Michael Hingson  14:29 I realize it's not the same, but conceptually, people who happen to have dyslexia are the same sort of thing. They've got to figure it out, and they do, and many of them do, even though they have this thing where the brain doesn't necessarily accurately communicate what or cape or easily communicate what the eye is seeing and recognize it, so people learn to deal with it and to cope. But, but, yeah, it is one of those things. That we have to deal with exactly. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  15:03 And I was interviewing somebody on my show a little bit ago, and they were dyslexic, and that's what they said. They said, You know, I learned to deal with it because I didn't know she was older than me, so she would have been in school, I want to say, maybe in the 60s, 70s, something like that. And so you just didn't complain, right? You didn't You didn't talk back, you didn't complain. You just figured it out. And so that's what she did, until later, when finally, I think I want to say maybe she was in college, and she finally told a professor, and they're like, you might have dyslexia, and that would explain a lot. It's like, Oh, wow. Michael Hingson  15:44 Well, and again, it wasn't something that people understood until later as well. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  15:50 Exactly. I know I remember when my kid was in kindergarten, she's she's going to be 19 next week, but it was all about phonics. That's how they were teaching the kids to learn. They weren't teaching them any other way. They were doing phonics. So they sent all the phonics books home, and she could not grasp it, not not because of dyslexia, I don't think, but she could not grasp, like, phonetically, what things sounded like. So we had to come up with a different way. And she was later diagnosed with, like, a reading writing disability. But they didn't name any one specific one, but she still, now at 19, struggles with words, especially those crazy words like knife. Why does it start with a K, things like that that she just, she just has to find different ways to go about it. And luckily that, you know, talk to text now is a lot better than Michael Hingson  16:45 it used to be. Yeah, yeah. Voice recognition is really pretty good these days, which helps a lot. Now, is she diagnosed also with autism? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  16:55 Yes, she was diagnosed when she was eight. Michael Hingson  16:58 So that must have been interesting, and certainly in a lot of ways a blessing, because she learned about it earlier, and also for you, because then you could start to and you have some some other aspects of it that make it easier for you to understand, but that made it more possible for you to help her. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  17:19 Yeah, so she was diagnosed before I was it was actually I came out of my room one day a tooth Mom, if I have dyslexia or sorry if I have autism, I got it from you. I go, huh? Yeah, you probably did, and that's what prompted me to go and actually find out. But yeah, being able to get diagnosed earlier gives them the best opportunity to go and get support once we had that, you know, diagnosis on paper, the school was like, Oh, we can do this now. We could do that now. Whereas before they're like, she's just being bad, we're sending her home. Michael Hingson  17:57 What do you think about all these people who keep saying that it's all caused by vaccinations. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  18:04 Well, number one, so load of hooey. There's no actual scientific research. Number two, if I had to choose my kid living in an iron lung or being autistic, I would pick being autistic. Uh huh. So I mean, what? What's worse being autistic or being in an iron lung or dead? Michael Hingson  18:27 Yeah, I'd rather not be dead. And I'd rather not be in an iron lung or on a respirator all the time, exactly. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  18:37 I mean, vaccinations absolutely don't cause it, but if they did for some strange reason, I still would choose to vaccinate, because I still would want my kid to live Michael Hingson  18:49 back when I was born. It was not accepted by medical science that if you were born prematurely and put in an incubator, that you could go blind because your retinas wouldn't properly form. It had been actually proposed, though, by one person at the Wilmer Eye Institute in Johns Hopkins University, but medical science wouldn't accept it. They they kept saying, too much oxygen is never a bad thing. Well, it is actually, and today, you still can become blind what's now called retinopathy or prematurity. Back when I was born, it was called retro lentral fibroplasia. I like that much better, but retinopathy or prematurity, but today, medical science accepts it. So if there's a premature baby, and they have to put it in a pure or, well basically a pure oxygen environment. At least they know what they're dealing with, and the parents are warned. But also, incidents of the blindness are a lot less in part, because you don't have to give a child a pure oxygen environment. For 24 hours a day. You can even not do it for a short period of time every day, and the incidence of blindness goes down to zero. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  20:09 Wow. I did not know that, though, so interesting. Michael Hingson  20:12 But when I was born, you were put in an incubator, and it was pure oxygen environment, and that is what caused my blindness and the blindness in so many other children who were born prematurely back in the baby boomer era, that the average age of blind people in the country actually, well, dropped from 67 to 65 years of age. That's how many premature kids were born who became blind. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  20:40 Wow, isn't it interesting how far along science has come? I find it so interesting when I look back, because I always like to say, in all reality, medicine is just a baby, right? Like the big breakthroughs really didn't come till the 1900s when things were being more discovered. And that's that's very recent in the grand scheme of history of everything. So I find it, yeah, it's intriguing. And we're Michael Hingson  21:13 still learning a lot, and still so much to learn. Medicine still is very much a baby in so many ways. There's so many things that we are learning about but don't really know totally Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  21:24 yet, by any standard, exactly like they don't know what actually causes autism, they have ideas, but they don't know. And even, like fibromyalgia, there's, you know, these two factions of people that say that's just because they gave up. They don't, they don't know what's wrong with you, so they just give you that label, sort of, but it is a real thing. So just because they don't know what causes it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. What it just means, pain, lots of pain, okay? I mean, there's other things, but my biggest thing is just pain all over body, pain and you just It hurts to move so, Michael Hingson  22:09 so getting a hammer and sticking your thumb out and then hitting your thumb with the hammer isn't going to really make that much of a difference. No, feel pain all over anyway. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  22:18 Huh? Exactly. That was an idea. I appreciate that. Michael Hingson  22:25 I've had friends with migraines, and I say you want to get rid of the migraine pain. Put your finger down. Get a hammer, hit it. You won't have a migraine anymore. Yeah, yeah. Well, you're too Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  22:34 busy, because your finger hurts too much. I got it exactly. Michael Hingson  22:37 Yeah. No, seriously. The bottom line is that I appreciate that, that all the pain is there, and hopefully those are the kinds of things that at some point we'll learn to deal with and fix, just like cancer, which we still are learning so much about, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  22:56 exactly right? And that's that's the thing. That's a medicine's a baby, because we're still learning. We still don't know the human body is so intricate. Michael Hingson  23:08 Yeah, well, you, you, you had a lot of depression and depressive thoughts when you were growing up. What was that from? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  23:21 That's a great question. I mean, there definitely were some mitigating factors, but a lot of times, depression doesn't necessarily have a root, like it doesn't have a cause. It just your brain is not firing all of the all the proper channels and proper, happy hormones. My brain is not working right now, but when I was a teenager, there definitely was some issues. I mean, again, talked about not feeling like I belonged. I mean, that's going to put anybody into a horrible mindset, right? You don't feel like you belong. What is wrong with me? Why can't I fit in? Why don't I understand these things? Why don't people like me, right? So that's kind of a spiral on its own. And then at the time, my brother, who was four years older than me, he was in and out of jail, he was doing drugs, and that just caused chaos in the house. And then my my mom's ex husband, he was also an alcoholic, so just lots of chaos. You never knew what to expect. And autism likes to know what to expect. We like routine. We like to know what's going to come so again, all these different layers. But ultimately, I think, you know, I have depression because my brain is not quite wired correctly, and then you add in all those other layers and it just, it makes for a really bad soup. Yeah, not good. Do you Michael Hingson  24:55 still have depression? Sort of, kind of things from time? Do you do? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  24:58 Definitely, time. Yeah. Yeah, so I take antidepressants every day, so they keep me from going really down. So what I like to say, because I actually had a bit of a depression over the summer, because there was just so much chaos in the house we were renovating, which it turned out amazing, but it was just a lot. So I like to say, you know, without the medication, the depression goes, whoo, really far down, like it just, you know, bottoms out with the antidepressants. It, it goes down, but at a manageable level where then you can still, because I've done a lot of therapy, so it goes down, but the antidepressants keep it at a level where you can still go I am going to use one of my coping strategies? Yes, I can do that. Whereas, without the antidepressants, you're so far down, you're like coping strategies don't work. I don't care. They're not going to do anything, right? Michael Hingson  25:51 Well, so you said your brother was in and out of jail and drugs and all that sort of stuff. So whatever happened to him, he died. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  25:59 What are we 2025? 2025, four years ago now? So he drug overdose, drug overdose, yeah, so it was something that I always assumed was going to happen. Because, I mean, when you're living that lifestyle, obviously it wasn't the phone call I wanted to receive. But, I mean, for years, every time there'd be like, a news report about it, I'd look to see if it was his name, because I figured that that's how I was going to find out. Luckily, I got a phone call instead of reading in the newspaper. I guess that was kind of a nice, nicer way to find out. Yeah, so four years ago, back in May. Michael Hingson  26:45 And so now, did your brother, or was he ever diagnosed with autism, or any of those sorts of things, or was it just totally different? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  26:56 He, I want to say he had anxiety. He might have had other stuff too, but he did have an anxiety prescription at one point, I know, because the one nice thing about being in jail is that they do have some supports to try and figure out how to get you healthy and back on the street and not be a re offender. It doesn't always work, but so I know he did have that, and he suffered from panic attacks. I remember the one day I was, I was a teenager, he was maybe 19, and he's having this full blown panic attack. He thought he was having a heart attack kind of thing. And so he called 911, and everything. And they came. They tried, like, no, it's panic attack. So he definitely had stuff going on. He probably also had PTSD from from different things that I'm not necessarily privy to. But, I mean, I know that as a kid, we had a different dad, so I know his dad was kind of a big jerk. My dad was definitely a big jerk to them. So there was, you know, again, layers and layers to them. And a lot of times, people that do drugs or alcohol, they do it to numb the pain of something else. Addiction is usually to numb the pain of something else. And I don't know exactly what those things were, but definitely, I'm going to say some kind of trauma and anxiety. Michael Hingson  28:23 Yeah, understand. Well, it's still a sad thing, and it happens all too often. Yes, I met, we had a family who lived next door to us when we lived after Karen and I got married in Mission Viejo, and they adopted a little girl whose mother was a drug addict, and so she as a child, also was addicted, and it affected her behavior a lot. I haven't heard what happened to her later, but it was pretty uncontrollable. We observed some of it, and, you know, we knew it, and they could talk with us about it, because we understood, but it is, it is sad. Drugs Don't help a lot at all. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  29:09 No Exactly. They numb the pain for that moment. But it's definitely not the correct solution. It's not going to solve the problem, and it's not going to help you in the long run. 29:19 Now, in addition to your brother? Did you have other siblings? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  29:22 I did. I did slash do? So I had two, yes. So I had two sisters, younger sisters. The one died, actually, again by drugs, and she was really sick with, I'm not sure what else, but she went go to the doctor to find out. So she died a year ago, and then I have my baby sister. And my baby sister is still around and doing well, good. Michael Hingson  29:55 Yeah, nice to have somebody else in the family, the sibling i. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  30:00 Yeah, yeah, we're like, 12 years apart, so it's a pretty big gap, but, but it's nice now that she's an adult, it's not, it doesn't feel as big of a gap, right? When you're, she was first born, and I'm, you know, a teeny bopper, and she's, I loved her, you know, you get the babies and you babysit, and you're, oh, this is my little sister, my little doll, and dress her up. But then you get into, like, 1718, and into college, and I'm in college, and I've got my my kid, and I'm trying to do all this college stuff, so I don't have time for doing other stuff. Yeah, so that that was harder to stay connected, because she's just, you know, she was like, 10, and I'm trying to figure out college and a career and all this stuff. So, yeah, it was definitely, it was, yeah, it was definitely tough for a while when you have a huge age gap, but the older you get, the less the age gap matters. 30:54 Yeah. How long you been married? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  30:58 13 years. Yeah, I've been together for 18 years. 31:05 Well, that's a long time, but that, you know, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  31:08 yeah, as my entire adult life, I always like to say, I'm so glad I never had to date anybody else as an adult, see, Michael Hingson  31:15 and it all works out that way. What does he do? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  31:19 He's a mechanic. Oh, yeah, I love it because it's so expensive. Get your car fixed. Yeah? I go, honey, something spoken, 31:29 yeah, I turned the key and nothing happens, right? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  31:33 I'll call them sometimes they'll be like, Oh, I don't want to forget, but there's this light on. I don't know what it means, but fix it well? Michael Hingson  31:41 And the answer to that is, of course, just watch the Big Bang Theory, the check engine lights on for all 13 or 12 years. Yeah, exactly, yeah. Gosh, but you know it's, it is it is a challenge, and we all have different, different issues now, is your your mom still about? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  32:03 Yes, actually. So my mom broke her hip very recently. Yes, that's actually why we had an original date, and I had to change it because she had broke her hip, so I had to go to the hospital and visit her too much football, huh? Exactly? She, you know, she's just too competitive there. No, she got, they diagnosed her with osteoporosis. I'm like, okay, that makes sense, because you're kind of young for a broken hip, yeah? So she's doing all right now she's around and kicking. So she's, we had to switch is, my mom actually lives with me, and she is on the second floor. My room is on the first floor, so I had to give her my room and my bed, because I love her, yeah, but I can't wait till she can walk up the stairs and I get on my bed 32:51 back so right now she's on the first floor. Yes, yeah. Michael Hingson  32:56 Well, you know, we when we moved to New Jersey. Karen, I think I'd mentioned in the past, is in a wheelchair her whole life, we built an accessible house. So we used we had an elevator that was the only incremental cost to making the house accessible. Because the neat thing about building an accessible home is, if you're building it from scratch, it really doesn't cost anything to build accessibility in like ramps or lower counter wide doorways, but it was in an area where they only, well, everyone had a two story home, so we had to put an elevator. And so let's build into the mortgage, which was okay, so it's a $15,000 incremental cost. That's not that bad. Plus the county engineers made, made it hard to get it done, but we got it in. But still, it actually, although assessors tend not to value those kinds of things, actually the elevator ended up being a great asset when we were selling the house, because a husband and wife, who are both very short, bought the house, and so they love the lower counters, and also the washer and dryer were in a room on the second floor, so that all worked. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  34:12 Well, awesome. Oh, I love that. We just renovated our kitchen and bathroom because the floor was rotting and it just by sheer how we wanted to kind of arrange the cupboards, because before the kitchen's a really big room, but it was not, it was not designed well. It was not very functional. So we kind of we moved things around a little bit, and it's definitely a lot more functional for her now that she has the walker, at least until she's all the way better. She can actually move around the kitchen to get to the bathroom. In the bathroom door, they My house is over 100 years old, so some of the doors and stuff, they're smaller than what they do now. So they widen the door to put in a real size door. Run stuff. I'm like, Oh, this is that's much more convenient for you now. And everybody actually, oh, yeah, it's really great. And we did. We got the all in one washer dryer, which I love, and now it is in the kitchen, and I don't have to worry about taking laundry downstairs on those really bad days when I don't want to move anymore, yeah, and I don't forget to switch it over, because that's one of the biggest problems when you've got autism, is you forget you're doing something. Yeah. And your laundry sits for three days, so you have to wash it again, and it reminds you, so that helps, yep. So now I put it in, it washes, it dries, and then it's done. Michael Hingson  35:39 That's cool. Well, love it. So, so your daughter with autism is, you said 19, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  35:48 she will be on Tuesday. Michael Hingson  35:49 So what was, what is it like raising a child with autism? You know, you you've learned to deal with it, but, and that must help you in terms of some of the expectations, but what is it like? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  36:03 It's so hard. It's it's definitely hard. Now, I don't really have a typical child to base it off of, because even my older one, like my stepdaughter, I wouldn't say she's typical, but she's definitely not atypical, either, like she's not on the spectrum or anything. So raising the two very different, and I gotta say, with love, it is a battle every day, and you have to the older she gets, the more difficult it becomes, because you're expecting a certain level of maturity by the time they're 19, and that's just not there. And you know, hopefully, hopefully, in 10 years, she will act like she's 19, because right now at 19, she's acting like she's 12 ish, 13 ish. So it definitely helps to remind ourselves that at times, because you just, you want to be like, but you're an adult, like, go and change your clothes. What are you doing? But then you have to stop and go, wait. Okay, we have to break down these steps. We have to, you know, give clearer directions and just reminder, yeah, biggest thing is remind ourselves that she's going to be a little bit harder to deal with sometimes. But a lot of the things that yeah, that I've found that work for me, routine, making notes, those are things that definitely help her and through school. Luckily, she was able to, not so much through school, but through our journey with school and doctors and stuff. She went to it's called CPRI here in Ontario, and she went there for three months way back when, and it helped her a lot. They finally did the psycho educational assessment and the OT assessment, a few other things, so that helped her to understand herself and also us to understand what she needed. Because I hate the whole low functioning, high functioning thing, but she is more severe when it comes to life skills than I am. So in that part, it's tricky, like, I've always been like, you get up and you get dressed. She's like, I get up, but I'm not going anywhere. Why would I get dressed like cuz, yes, stink. So it's just little things like that that are different between her and I. So it's a learning experience, but we make it work for the most part. So has she gone through high school? Yes. So she finished high school. She graduated two I guess it's almost two years ago now, a year and a half, she tried college. It did not go well again. It was it came down to the functional, social aspect of things. It just didn't work well for her. She loved she took baking. She loved doing the baking. She was capable of doing the baking, but she could not fit into the social standards that the college wanted from their students. So it was a disaster. That's putting it lightly, but it did not go well, and so they actually gave her what's called a medical withdrawal so that we could get our tuition back past the like your deadline of getting it back, because it just it wasn't going to work. So she's kind of figuring out what the heck she's going to do. She tried volunteering at the at the cat place that didn't. She said it was too boring. And I'm like, okay, just trying to figure it out. We don't, we don't know where life's gonna lead at this point. Michael Hingson  39:48 Yeah, well, and maybe it's one of those things where you just kind of have to wait and see how it goes exactly. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  39:57 Now that's where we're at. We're at wait and see, and we're. Work on those life skills. Michael Hingson  40:01 Does she have any idea what she wants to do with life? Or it's just Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  40:05 not there yet, not not there yet. She loves doing art, but to do art as like a career, I think would be hard. It's deadlines. So she's done some art for some of my kids books, and they're great, and people love them, but it is. I've had this one kid's book written for two years now, and I'm still waiting on her to finish the artwork, and it's only like 10 pictures, but she just doesn't have a sense of deadline. If she's not, if she's not in the art mood, she just doesn't do it. I'm like, Hey, but I I pay you to do these like I do actually pay her to do them, because I want to incentivize her. I mean, it's good work. I'm selling it so you should get something, but just doesn't, doesn't really matter Michael Hingson  40:53 to her. It doesn't, doesn't really gel yet. Yeah, yeah. Whether it does, remains to be seen. Of course, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  41:00 exactly what we'll see as we go well. Michael Hingson  41:04 So tell me about the books that you write. What kind of books do you write and what got you started in the writing path? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  41:12 So I write a lot of non fiction. My big thing is always talking about mental illness and autism, and I love sharing that stuff, because that is what I'm passionate about. That's what got me into social services. Realized I could do more with this and talking about it, right? So I write a lot about that, but it's heavy stuff, so I do intersperse like kids books in there, just to lighten my mood, and it's fun. So I do have a few kids books out there, but yeah, a lot is mental health. And I actually did write a book about my brother's death. It's called Goodbye Too Soon, and it got into it because of mental health. So my very first book was a book of poetry. The poems were what I had written as a coping strategy. Didn't even know it was a coping strategy at the time, but as a coping strategy as a teenager dealing with all that. So those got turned into my first book, called thoughts of a wanderer. And then from there, I was like, I love writing, and I just kept going. Michael Hingson  42:21 So how many books have you written so far? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  42:24 I got a count, but I want to say over 10. 42:27 Wow. Are they all non fiction? Or have you written any fiction? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  42:32 I wrote one fiction. It's a collection of short scary stories, well, and the kids books, I guess those are fiction too, but I did a collection of short scary stories a few years ago, because I love horror. Michael Hingson  42:47 Stephen King loves you, huh? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  42:49 He was one of the first authors that I actually read the full book all the way through without complaint. Which book I want to say it was it? Oh, it. Michael Hingson  43:04 He's an interesting writer. I I haven't read much of his lately, but I'm amazed. How do people come up with these things? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  43:15 I, I mean, I have some pretty messed up monsters that I had in my book. I don't know how we do it. We our brains are just just coming up. Yeah, our brains are just wrong. Michael Hingson  43:29 I think the first one of his that I read was The shining and then I read Carrie, and then Salem's Lot, and it went from there. But I've just have always been amazed. How do people come up with these concepts? It's just amazing. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  43:45 Yeah, me, for most of the ones that I wrote came from, I'd be walking the dogs, and I was like, oh, that's an interesting tree. It looks like it has a face. And then all of a sudden, this tree that looks cool became a monster. Like, oh, okay, cool. This is where we went with it. And then some of the other stories. My my kid had drawn pictures, and I'm like, ooh, that picture looks like you're harvesting body parts and you're trying to fix stuff. So this is gonna happens. Do you Michael Hingson  44:18 find that your characters end up writing the books. I've talked to authors, and many have said that, that that the characters really create the stories and they write Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  44:30 the books. Yeah, it's hilarious, because when I first started interviewing other authors, and they would say that, because at the time, I'd only really, really written nonfiction, I'm like, Ha, weird. But as I got going and I started writing the scary stories, or a few other short stories that I haven't published, they're just, I just wrote them. I was like, Huh? The characters really do tell you what's gonna happen. This is weird, Michael Hingson  44:56 and if you don't pay attention, they're gonna get you. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  45:00 Yeah, it is the strangest thing, and I it's a phenomenon I don't know how to explain, but they really do. They come to life in your head and they tell you exactly what's going to Michael Hingson  45:10 happen, yeah, which, which, excuse me, is certainly understandable. It makes for a very interesting world. Needless to say, yeah. So you have other books that are coming out, Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  45:27 not right now, other than that one kids book that I'm waiting for the pictures on. What I'm doing right now actually is I am working on turning my book, Goodbye Too Soon, into a screenplay and into an indie film. Okay, how does that work? That's a great question. I'm in the very early stages. I'm in the very early stages. So I am me and my best friend, because she likes to research. She's doing all the research stuff and figuring out that side of thing. I'm focusing on writing the script right now, so it's going to be interesting. It's going to be a learning curve, and as I figure it out more, I might have to come back and tell you, because I'm not 100% sure yet, but I'm going to figure it out because I think it would be so much fun to do, and because it's such an important topic, it needs to be done. We'll see. We'll see what happens. Michael Hingson  46:25 Do you write basically full time, or do you have an addition a full time job, or anything like, I have Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  46:30 a job to pay the bills. I actually really like my job. So I work. I work in an office, and the girls I work with, they are absolutely amazing. They are the reason I like going to work. They get me out of the house, and I get to talk to other adults, other than like I talked to adults here now, but I get to just get out and refreshed, which sounds weird, that work is refreshing, but it's because of who I work with. They're amazing. Be nice to be able to make enough money to pay all my bills through writing. But again, I think I like the whole being able to leave the house. It's kind of nice. And what kind of job do you have? So I do scheduling. Okay, yeah, I schedule different, different lessons and stuff. What's the company that you work for or the office. Um, I don't know if I'm allowed to say it's not that it's it's not that it's confidential, but I don't know what, what their rules are around their marketing so Michael Hingson  47:31 well, not the company. But I mean, what kind of, what kind of of you said, education? Is it involving schooling? Is it it's driving? Oh, okay, all right, all right. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  47:42 But I work in the office. I do, Michael Hingson  47:43 no, no, that's okay. I don't think I could. Yeah, well, that's another story. I can tell you that my opinion is that it will be a wonderful day when autonomous vehicles get to the point where they truly are reliable and we can take driving out of the hands of drivers. A lot of people will hate me for saying that, but it's still true. I am absolutely convinced that the way they drive here in Victorville, I could drive as well as any of the people out there on the road, right? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  48:13 Yeah, sometimes I wonder, and it gives me a heart attack, because I'm like, Oh my gosh, would you like our business card? I think you need to come do some lessons. Michael Hingson  48:21 Yeah, you tell them. One of my favorite comedians is Bob Newhart. Have you ever heard The Bob Newhart driving instructor? 48:28 I have not. Michael Hingson  48:29 Oh gosh, go find it on YouTube. It's called Bob. It's Bob Newhart, the comedian, and it's the driving instructor. It's really hilarious. He's also got a bus driver training school and an air traffic controller, one that's pretty funny, but anyway, yeah, go find the driving instructor. It's, you'll love it, but it's, it is interesting to to see how how people deal with some of these things. And I do think that the time will come when autonomous vehicles truly do come into their own. We're not there yet. We're sort of still on the cusp, and there's a lot to be done, but it will happen, and Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  49:11 they're definitely working on it. Michael Hingson  49:12 They are, and it will it will become a lot better when truly autonomous vehicles work as we want them to, because then we will be able to take driving out of the hands of drivers, and that'll probably be a good thing, so that we won't have nearly the accident levels that we have today. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  49:29 Yes, some of them are quite, quite high and quite nasty. Michael Hingson  49:34 Yeah, well, and we're getting to the point where technology helps in so many ways. So you know that that'll that'll be pretty cool as as we get there. How do you have do you ever use like AI and any of the things that you do with writing? Does any of that help you with ideas? Or do you utilize any of those technologies? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  49:56 Um, so I haven't really used AI for my writing, although. I've used it for my uncle passed away in the summer, and my aunt was like, Oh, can you write a eulogy based on all of these things? And I'm like, sure, hey, chat. GPT write a eulogy with all of this stuff, because I didn't actually have the time to do it or the brain power. So I did that, and it came out, spit out something real nice, and I sent it to her. Oh my gosh, this is amazing. I'm like, Cool. Michael Hingson  50:28 I have used chat GPT to help in writing. I don't want to let it be the writer, but I I'll ask it to write things, and I'll do it three or four times, and I'll take all the ideas that it comes up with and integrate them with my own because I I really need to be responsible for what ultimately comes out. But I think that chat, GPT and the other technologies that are out there do and will continue to help a great deal. I remember the first time I heard about AI, it was when somebody was complaining that students are using it to write their papers, and the teachers can't necessarily detect it, and that's not a good thing. And immediately I thought and said, Well, I don't quite see the problem. What you do is you let the students write their papers using chat, D, P, T, they turn them in. Then you take one day, and you give each student a minute, and you tell them to come up and defend their paper. There you go, without looking at it, because the teacher has it. Either they're going to know the subject or they're not. And I think that's, you know, that's a sensible thing to do. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  51:36 And what I've what I've seen, and the little bits that I've kind of played around with it just to see what it'll spit out. It really only gives you something worth a good mark in school. Say, like, a good grade, if you are giving it the information you want it to have to use, yeah. So you should, you should have already done the research and know stuff, like, I know that you can ask it and say, like, you know, give me some research on whatever topic, but if you've done the research, the paper will actually spit out much better. I find that if you say, I want you to do this, this, this, this, this, and, like, give it a lot of criteria, and then it spits out your paper. So I mean, if kids are gonna use it. They've done the research. They just maybe struggle with their grammar. They like with my kid, that would have helped her immensely. Sure she she knows the facts, but she doesn't know how to write, you know, an essay. Even though we've tried and tried to try, it's just not computing. There's kids out there, right? We talked about dyslexia and stuff like, if kids can do all the research fine and source it somehow and then spit it into this machine so it can come out in a readable paper. I mean, what's to say that's bad? Michael Hingson  52:50 Well, again, what I do is a little backwards from that, because I'll give it a lot of information, and it'll come back, and it'll give me something, and I'll say, give me another one, and I will get five or six of those, and then I will take what I like from each of them and put them together with my own words, because I want it to be my style, and I know that the large language models are getting better at emulating your individual writing style, but still, I want it to be my style, so I will write the final document, but it has contributed a lot of neat ideas and a lot of things to help that make that to actually be something that is sensible, and the articles or the books not well. I haven't used it to write a book, but the articles and other papers and other things I've written with it do come out well, but, but I'm still the one that has to approve it and make it occur. And I realize that somebody who has like dyslexia, it's a little bit different story, or somebody who maybe has autism, they're going to have some problems with it, and I can appreciate that, and they may rely on it more, but you're right. She knows the facts, and she gives it the information she can also figure out how to do it in such a way that she's going to get something that would be written the way she wants it written, exactly right. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  54:08 So I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing. I just think we need to use it as a tool, not as a crutch, correct? And when you talk about AI, one thing that I do use, and I absolutely love, so on my podcast, I use Riverside Riverside, will AI generate you like, the little short clips that I can stick on Tiktok and stuff? Oh, it saves me so much time. Most of the time, the clips are awesome. Sometimes I'll be like, and that clips not so good. I'm not going to use that one. But for the most part, it's pretty spot on finding the good clips to use for, like, Tiktok shorts and stuff. So that saves an immense amount of time. I do really like that. AI tech Michael Hingson  54:46 well, and we're all going to, as we go forward, find more and more ways that this technology will help us, but it's still us that has to be in control of it. I'm i. Think we're a whole heck of a long way from sentient computers that are able to do all that. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  55:05 Yes, yeah, we're a little far away from the Terminator era. Michael Hingson  55:09 Yeah, so it isn't going to happen in the in the near term, but, but we'll, we'll get there, and we'll, we'll see some things occurring. It'll just take it a while. But I think that writing is so fascinating. I've now written three books. I love it. I don't, and people have asked if I'm going to write another one. And my response right now is, nothing's coming up, but something else may pop out in the future, and if it does, then we'll do Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  55:37 it exactly. I always, Mickey actually asked me a little bit ago, well, I want to show when your next book is out, and I was telling him about the script idea. We gotta actually talk a little bit more. But he's like, so is you're writing on pause? I'm like, well, not really, because I always have ideas. So like it is, but like it isn't, you know, focusing on one thing, but there's always going to be ideas that are going to generate that I might have to get out onto paper. Maybe not finish, but get out. Michael Hingson  56:06 Yeah. Now we talked about we, we discovered each other through Mickey. Mickey has also been a guest on unstoppable mindset. I don't remember when that episode is coming up, but, but we got him on. That'll be fun. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  56:23 Yeah, Mickey did an episode on my show a while back. Now, he should probably come back and do another one, but he did one a while back. Michael Hingson  56:31 But I enjoy writing. I think it's fascinating. I think it's fun. I believe it's really important to be able to communicate with people. Of course, I've been a keynote speaker now for 24 years, ever since September 11. And I realized somewhere along the line, probably, oh, I'd say seven or eight years ago, it really hit home that we have a whole new generation of people who never experienced and don't know anything about September 11. So what I love to tell people is my job now is to take people into the building with me and take them downstairs, step by step, going through all the things that I experienced, and coming out the other end, and really being able to follow all of that so that they have a true sense of what happened for me, at least in the World Trade Center, and why it happened. The idea being that that helps to teach them more about September 11, teach them more concepts about why it's important to truly learn emergency preparedness and not rely on reading signs and things like that, but learn truly how to have all that information. Because if you have information in your head, and you're not relying on signs, if you truly know it, and you know what's supposed to happen in any kind of given set of circumstances, that helps you control fear and that keeps it from overwhelming you, which is what's really important as far as I'm concerned. And that's what we did with live like a Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  58:01 guide dog, yeah? And that's what we talked about on my show. So everybody go watch Michael's episode on the Ride or Die show, and you'll hear more about it. Michael Hingson  58:07 There you are. See it's important, yeah? Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. If people want to reach out to you and talk with you, how do they do that? Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  58:19 Yeah, so my website is rb, writing.ca and then you can find me. RB, writing.ca RB, writing.ca writing as in, WR, I T, okay. And then I am on Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok, Randy, Lee Bowslaugh, YouTube, you can either do my name or you can do right or die show. And then all the all the podcasting platforms, you can find it on the Ride or Die show, spell for us, B, O, W, s, l, a, U, G, Michael Hingson  58:52 H, bowslaugh. There you go see. So if you had some advice to give to a young person, not necessarily who's dealing with autism or whatever. But if you wanted to impart some lesson for for people to take away from our show, what would it be today Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  59:12 advocate for yourself? That would be the biggest one. It's way harder than it sounds to actually, truly advocate for yourself and keep going until you find answers. If you're feeling like any of the things that we've talked about on the show, right? And I think that's yeah, advocate for yourself. And if you can't, then find somebody that can advocate for you and learn to do it. Michael Hingson  59:40 Yeah, and it's important to do that. And the fact of the matter is, in so many ways, you have to learn to advocate for yourself, because no one else is really going to do it like you can. And a lot of times, no one's going to do it period, because their priorities are all different. So you do need to learn to be a self advocate. Well, Randy, thank you. For being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. Love to hear your thoughts about our episode today. Feel free to email me at Michael H, [email protected] that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and if you would please give us a five star rating, and please review us wherever you're observing our podcast. We value your reviews and your ratings very highly. And also, if you know of anyone who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset Randy, that goes for you as well, we would sure appreciate any introductions. We're always looking for other people who want to come on and help us discover and learn and show others that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are, and you can help make that happen. So I urge you to to do that. We'd love to hear from you, and we value your input and your thoughts very highly. And again, Randy, I want to thank you for being here. This has been fun again. Randi-Lee Bowslaugh  1:01:01 Yes. Thank you so much for having me back. Michael Hingson  1:01:07 Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others. I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening, keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. You.

What happens when a life of constant movement, war, and personal struggle finally forces you to start over? In this episode, I sit down with Tom David Barna, whose journey spans growing up in a military family, serving in the Marine Corps, living in a mud hut in Africa, and facing the realities of war and addiction. Tom shares how those experiences shaped his perspective on resilience, identity, and purpose. You will hear how he rebuilt his life after hitting a breaking point, found clarity in solitude, and ultimately discovered a new path as a playwright. This is a powerful conversation about growth, failure, and the importance of setting goals with intention. I believe you will find this both inspiring and deeply human. Highlights: 00:01:04 – You will learn how growing up moving constantly shaped adaptability and identity00:20:51 – You will discover why choosing the hardest path can change your life00:24:26 – You will hear what living in a remote African village truly teaches you00:37:38 – You will feel the emotional reality of returning home from war00:50:49 – You will learn how hitting rock bottom can lead to real transformation00:59:41 – You will discover why goals need a clear plan to actually work Bottom of Form About the Guest: A playwright, retired Marine, former Peace Corps Volunteer, a husband-father, son, converted Catholic, always and forever on some diet, a one-time successful peddler of love and a never satisfied dreamer. A graduate of Kaiserslautern American High School in Germany. A graduate of New Mexico State University (Who’s Who In American Colleges). ·As a twenty-two year old Peace Corp volunteer, I served in Burkina Faso (formerly Upper Volta) for two years. I lived in an actual mud hut, completely isolated from the outside world (with the exception of a small, short wave radio), and I nearly died from malaria (were it not for a traveling missionary who found me on the dirt floor). Living in an extremely poor third world country is not for the faint of heart or the naïve. The son of a thirty year military veteran (dad is buried in Arlington National Cemetery), the son of a thirty year military civilian (mom is alive and well at 90 and still reading four book a week) and the brother of a twenty year Marine. My own military career included assignments in Okinawa, Japan and almost twenty-four months in the middle east (first as a commanding officer in Gulf War I and as a logistics officer in the Afghanistan War immediately after the attack on September 11th.) I had the honor of serving under Jim Mattis, before his stint as war hero of lore and Secretary of Defense. After twenty-two years, I retired as a Lieutenant Colonel. I have written over forty full-length plays (to include several musicals), forty-two short plays, author of multiple published children’s books, co-author of a thirteen part radio series, recipient of numerous artist awards and artist grants.  I have yet to see one of my plays performed on the Broadway stage; still working on that but just to be clear, I have enthusiastically embraced my own personal insanity as the prerequisite to writing for the stage. I am passionate and crazy—important traits for a writer. As to that “peddler of love” reference… as unlikely as it seemed, this hardened Marine found himself on yet another career path; as the general manager of numerous national diamond stores (in Iowa, Illinois and Minnesota) and discovering that success was not in the selling of diamonds per se, but by selling love, memories and deep feelings. Trust me, it worked. I once testified before a judge in court how selling love was not an acquired skill, but an affair of the heart. Now what? Other than my continued passion for writing, I’m not sure, but I’ve at times knowingly and more often than not,  unknowingly trusted God with His plan, so why change now. Yeah, maybe the best is yet to come. Ways to connect with Tom**:** My website link:  www.Minnesotaplaywright.weebly.com My LinkedIn link: https://www.linkedin.com/in/tom-david-barna-6115431a/ My National New Play Exchange Tom David Barna page link: https://newplayexchange.org/users/1245/tom-david-barna Mankato Free Press link: [email protected] New Mexico State University Alumni Foundation email address: [email protected] About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Well, hello once again, I am Michael hingson. I am the host of unstoppable mindset, and today we have a guest, Tom. David Barna, and Tom has a very interesting story to to tell. He's done a lot of things play, right? I don't know what all he's going to tell us all, and I'm not going to spend a lot of time giving it all away, because it's a lot more fun, as he tells it. So I'm just going to say Tom we really appreciate you being here, and welcome to unstoppable mindset. Tom Barna  01:30 Well, thank you. You're an incredible guy. I'm humbled to be here. So give me your best shots. Michael Hingson  01:37 Yeah, nah. No shots. Oh, vodka, I suppose. But no, no shots. Well, why don't we start? Why don't you tell us a little about kind of the early Tom growing up and some of those kinds of things that that got you started with whatever you do. Tom Barna  01:54 Sure. So I'm I was born in McKees, rocks, Pennsylvania, which is a suburb of Pittsburgh, and I was my my parents are my grandparents are Russian. On my dad's side, they never spoke English. So I so I grew up with some grandparents who spoke Russian, and then my grandparents on the other side are French, Spanish and cattle ranchers. So my dad's side, they were coal miners, so coal miners on one side and cattle ranchers on the other. So pretty diverse, so to speak, my father was in the military for almost 30 years, and so what that means is I moved around a lot, and I always refer to myself as as a modern day gypsy. I hate the term military brat. Yeah, I think most of us do, but yeah, so that's where it started. So I spent my first seven years in in New York, of all places, upstate New York, huh? So you know, I could babble for hours, so you better cut Michael Hingson  03:08 it well, a lot of lake effect snow up in upstate New York. Tom Barna  03:13 Yeah, I know that's that was nothing, way more than what we get in Minnesota, which I was surprised. But yeah, no, I the the four seasons, and the snow as high as the buildings is, is how I grew up. I loved it was, yeah, it was outstanding. Michael Hingson  03:30 Well, now isn't there a lot of snow up in Duluth? Tom Barna  03:34 Yeah, that's, that's, they get a lot of that lake effect snow, and that's, that's good three hours from where I am right now. Yeah, I'm about an hour and a half south of Minneapolis. So we, you know, I guess in a good year, we'll get 100 inches if that's, if it's a good year. Michael Hingson  03:53 I remember a couple of years ago here in California, we got socked in with lots of snow. Tahoe had something like 750 inches that year. And I know down here in Southern California, the ski resorts the mountains around where I live, got so much snow that some of the resorts were snowed in. Roofs collapsed because they had so much snow on them, a lot more than I'd ever heard of in California. But here where I live in Victorville, we had three inches of snow one Saturday afternoon, and it was gone the next day. So they Yeah, well, you know, on the other hand, I don't know whether it would have mattered to the kids, because the schools would have just gone and done zoom presentations and kept them in school anyway, but I I know that that the valley here where I live, although we didn't get a lot of snow, we got a lot of cold air. So you know, what do you do? Tom Barna  04:54 Yeah, we get, for us here in Minnesota, where I'm at, February is the snowiest. Month, but January is the coldest month, so we can with wind chills 35 to 50 below zero. So yeah, don't go outside. We can get down to Michael Hingson  05:10 zero a wind chill. And I've actually in Palmdale, where I grew up, about 55 miles west of here. I remember a couple of times when my brother and I were delivering papers, we went out and it was zero outside, pre wind chill. So it can get fairly cool here. We're about 20 850 feet above sea level, so we're in what's called the high desert, but surrounded by more mountains that get most of the snow. Tom Barna  05:39 I spent part of my about another six years in California, in Northern California, so I spent a lot of time in Tahoe. So I love it. It's so beautiful. Michael Hingson  05:51 We're in Northern California. Where are you? Tom Barna  05:53 Just outside? About 50 miles outside of Sacramento. Okay, I live. Go ahead. I'm just gonna say I we lived when I was growing up. We would make do field trips to San Francisco to to see things like the ballet, like the nut cracker suite and things like that. But in general, I guess the Sacramento area not as, not as exciting you might think of California, but I loved it. We were actually stationed at a place called Beale Air Force Base, right? Michael Hingson  06:27 I've been to Beal. I actually spoke there one year, awesome. But we lived in Novato, so we were in North Bay in Marin County. We were the northern most city in Marin County. So of course, we had things like the memories of Jerry Garcia in Marin County, but then we moved down here in 2014 and been here ever since. Tom Barna  06:52 Well, you're in a good place. They've got a little sunshine to I mean, we'll go six months and see a few days of blue skies. So I am jealous of where you live, because it's the opposite. You see lots of blue skies. Michael Hingson  07:07 We got a fair amount of blue skies, and when we get some of the other but that's okay. So you, you grew up, you went to high school and all that. Presumably, did you go on to college? Yeah, so Tom Barna  07:19 I, my dad, had transferred for to Europe. So I went to Kaiser slaughter in American high school in Germany, what used to be called West Germany, which doesn't exist anymore, right? Yeah. So that's, that's where I went to school. In fact, my class, we just had our 50th reunion. So that's pretty amazing. Well, yes, I I went on to college at New Mexico State University in Las Cruces, New Mexico, and so it's the home of the largest pecan orchards in the world. Nobody guessed No. Michael Hingson  07:55 What do you think about all this moving around that you did? How do you think that's helped kind of shape your outlook in in terms of life and so on, as opposed to being in one place all the time, Tom Barna  08:07 I'm always amazed to meet people who've never left town. Just about a fellow the other day, he's lived in this town where I am now his entire life. I can't even imagine that. But this to answer your question. There's there's pros and cons. One is the only life you know so you don't know that you're missing anything or or that you have any advantages while you're doing it. But I can say in reflection that moving every three to four years means you learn how to make friends quickly and how to lose friends quickly. It's being, I mean, I spent six, six years in Japan, so I mean, the cultures that I've been exposed to, the People's languages, the foods, it's it has shaped me who made me who I am, obviously, and I, I suspect it might have been even more interesting, but more importantly, it I know that I'm a tolerant I'm appreciative person for people and their differences, and I like to embrace them whenever Michael Hingson  09:14 I can. Yeah, well, I didn't move around much, but for other reasons, I think I tend to be a lot more tolerant being different from the outset anyway, but it is what you say is very true and very, very interesting, because you've been to a variety of different places and you've experienced a lot of different things. As a speaker for now, the last 24 years, I have traveled all over the US, as well as to a number of other countries, and people ask me what my favorite place is, and that's so hard, because I've enjoyed everywhere I've gone. Oh, I can think of pros and cons about most places, but I really enjoy traveling. I enjoy meeting people. Wherever I go. So I can't really say that I have some place that is so outstanding. I'd rather be there and nowhere else on the planet. Tom Barna  10:09 Yeah, I'm with you. I would be hard pressed to name a place I didn't like. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense to me. They're all so different. So you're right. I love them all, but we'll get to this a little bit later, I suspect. But eventually, I decided that I wanted, when I started having a family, to finally settle down in a place where my my my kids, even though they've been once born in Hawaii, one's born in Japan, and one's born in Oregon. I wanted them to be from somewhere, because that's the hardest question I ever get. Where are you from? And I say, Pittsburgh. Oh, do you know this cafe or this bar? No, I don't. I don't know any of those places. But I wanted my children to be from somewhere. So even though they've lived or they were born from all, you know, basically all over the world, they do now say, when people ask them, Where are you from? They can say, you know, Minnesota. And I think there's a great strength in being able to say that. So it's it was the decision on why we chose to stop moving around. Michael Hingson  11:21 So yeah, well, yeah, there are pros and cons, and hopefully, though, they will get to see a lot of the world, and it will help them keep a pretty broad perspective on things. How old are the kids? Tom Barna  11:33 Yeah, so you're gonna ask me, there's gonna be tough questions. I'll have challenges with 8587 and 89 are the years that were born. So there you go, whatever that makes them so I was born, I'm married in 83 there we had 8587 89 that's it so. And then I got six grandchildren. Again. We get from 18 as the oldest all the way down to the youngest. Is I think 6am? I terrible or things like that. I just forget 4038 Michael Hingson  12:03 and 36 that's fair. Tom Barna  12:06 They're gonna appreciate you sharing that number, Michael Hingson  12:10 especially the girls, right? But anyways, but still I, you know, I enjoy traveling and speaking. I was out all of last week, and a couple of different places speaking, and I enjoy everywhere I go and and seeing different hotels, and even seeing how they manage what they do, is kind of fascinating. I just find it fun to be able to experience different things, and I will always make the best of it, because I think it's the way, the way to do it. The other side of it is, of course, I always do get to come home and and when I come home, as happened last night, when I got home, my cat started yelling at me because I was gone for a week. So, you know, that's the other part about Tom Barna  12:56 it. Rightfully so. Michael Hingson  12:58 So, yeah, yeah. Rightfully so. Who deserve it, yep, no question about it. So my guide dog and I came home, and I get yelled at, and I stitch the cat loves to be petted while she eats, so I had to spend a fair amount of time soothing the savage beast as we as we would say, Well, you're a good man. Well, we try so, so you went off to college and Las Cruces and so on. Then what did you do? Tom Barna  13:25 So I basically, I had a one year scholarship, which, which was awesome. So then I could, I could obtain citizenship in the state and residency, and then I worked my way through college. I was everything from a key punch operator or White Sands Missile Range. Now that's 13:45 something. There you go. Tom Barna  13:47 Nobody knows what a key punch operator, Michael Hingson  13:49 I know. And Tom Barna  13:50 then I actually delivered milk. I drove a milk truck, and I went to people's houses, and in some cases, I actually went in their back door and put their milk and cheese and eggs or whatever in their refrigerator. Again, probably not something a lot of people would know could be possible today, but no, but no. I worked my way through college and finished in four years, which was awesome. I was the first in my family that I know of had ever gone to college, so didn't really know what it was, and I figured out if I had planned this better going to finish in three years. But you know, I did enjoy myself. So I finished. I graduated in 1979 and I joined the PD score. Went to Africa. Michael Hingson  14:41 Ah, now, when you were a key punch operator, okay, was Did your machine? Was it advanced enough, as it were, that it actually had a screen so that you could read the characters before you finally pushed a button and punched the card? Or did you have one of the older machines before they had screens on them? Tom Barna  14:59 Yeah, there were. Screens. It was like, yeah, they would give you a big tray. I don't want us to call it of cards, right, like these large index cards, and it was zeros and ones. So obviously it was and so I was at my little ceiling, you're right. Punch it in zero, whatever you had to do it. And I think I was allowed to make two mistakes per trade or something crazy, but probably the most monotonous job on the planet back in the day, Michael Hingson  15:28 that's what I did. That's what you did when I was a student at UC Irvine out in California, out here in California, somewhere along the line, probably in my senior year or first year of graduate school we were there were still all punching car well, a lot of it was key punch and we had terminals, but they had started getting some machines in where there was actually a screen where you could see all 80 characters that you typed and make sure that they all looked correct before you push the button. Then they quickly punched the card, and he went on to the next card. That was kind of fascinating, and that was a new, revolutionary thing. At the time, I didn't Tom Barna  16:08 even know what I was doing. I mean, what I mean, I was a White Sands Missile Range. I mean, so you can suspect it was something, God knows why, but I didn't even know. But I wouldn't know if I had made a mistake, until I was really done with the Troy. So that made it, yeah, real stressful. Yeah. Michael Hingson  16:25 Well, at Irvine we, we actually could, there was a keyboard, and you could type actual characters, and then it dealt with the zeros and ones. So it was sort of advanced. I guess that's college. What can I say? Tom Barna  16:39 Well, this is cool, because I'd never met somebody else who's done this also so well. I didn't Michael Hingson  16:44 punch, but I knew about them. I generally interacted from a computer terminal. Eventually, I, with the help of someone who who researched it and found out how to do it, we built a computer terminal that would print emboss in Braille, so I was actually able to truly use the computer for my first year at college. I wasn't able to read anything directly because there was no Braille device that would or a device that would print everything in Braille. But I learned how to tell the difference between when I type something and cause an error message to be printed, and when I created something that didn't have an error because it just sounded different when there was an error message. I knew I learned what the sound was so that if I didn't hear that, I decided must have typed something, right? But still, it was not the same as when I was able to actually read material, because it started being being embossed in Braille so I could read it, but it was a lot of fun. But yeah, key punch, I'm I'm very familiar with the concept, much less deck tape and other other kinds of media that people would use to program. We had a PDP 10, and we had an IBM 360 on campus. That was kind of fun. But, yeah, what an adventure. Huh? It was. Tom Barna  18:15 I mean, I could only, I would do those kinds of jobs, typically during the summer, because during the school year, I was very focused on doing my academics, but, but, yeah, it allowed me to do a lot of different jobs. I was a resident assistant in the dorm for two years. That was, that was awesome, but I applied. Michael Hingson  18:34 They hire me for that, and I applied for it, but they wouldn't. They wouldn't let me do it. Tom Barna  18:38 Now, I would have hired you. Come on, Michael Hingson  18:43 whatever, so you went off and joined the Peace Corps. Now, why did you do that? Tom Barna  18:48 Okay, so it's kind of my, my life to to do the unexpected. That'd be a great title for a show the unexpected, but the I was grooming myself all my life, I grew up watching Perry Mason, you know, and loving it. And that's that was the life journey I was on was to become a lawyer. And I never asked myself, Why, or if I did, I studied so much law in in college, it was literally on a pre law degree program, and I discovered constitutional law, which was probably the driest for everybody else, but I love doing case briefing, but in the end, when it came time to make the big decision, you know, before taking the LSAT, and I changed my mind. I don't know where I'm I mean, I wanted to, maybe there's something. And there was a poster on the wall the Peace Corps, the greatest job you'll ever love, blah, blah, blah. So I might, I didn't even know the Peace Corps still existed. I mean, this is back in the 70s, and, yeah, it still exists. Did, and so I just did it so I didn't have to go to school. I guess, you know, it's just it. I didn't put a lot of thought into it, other than it was going to give me a break from academia. So there, you guys, I didn't even know what the process was. It was kind of a strange process, but off I went to, I went, actually, to get signed in, and everything was they joined a fraternity. They sent me to New Orleans, gave me a wad of cash. I don't, honestly, there's something slipped under your door, if you got us accepted. It was so strange. Anyway, I got, I got in, and they sent me off to to a country called today. It's called Burkina Faso. Back then it was Upper Volta. And you they spend three months in intensive training. You're like in a boot camp, a military boot camp. And you study all morning long. You study the programs you're going to go into, which in my my program was the French word for it, but it's kind of like a community organizer. And then the afternoon, we did languages, and there was, like two, two different tribes of people, plus French. So we did intensive language strings. So we did that for three months, and then it came the time to choose where you wanted to go. So you already knew what you were going to do, but where you were going to go, they gave you some choice, and I chose the furthest, most remote place that was going to be on that map. And there I went. Michael Hingson  21:36 And why did you do that? Why did you choose such a remote place? Tom Barna  21:39 I didn't want to be like everyone else got it. I didn't want to do the easy stuff. I wanted the toughest, most challenging. I didn't even know what I mean, what does that mean? I don't I mean, I didn't know. But I just know I wanted to be away from government and bureaucracy and people, you know, I wanted to get out into the culture, and they delivered me in the back of a Peugeot pickup truck, and we pulled up in the village. There's totally dirt roads, you know, it's it took, it took a day to get there. And they pull up into into my village, and it is a village, and in front of my mud hut, I really had a mud hut, and they dropped me off with my little bag of survival goodies, so to speak. And there I was for two years. It was an amazing, extraordinary experience, to say the least. Michael Hingson  22:32 How were you received by people there Tom Barna  22:36 again, I refer to this like going to Mars. No one. No one knows you. You don't know them. You have nothing in common. I couldn't talk about the Pittsburgh Steelers with them. I couldn't talk about anything. And they couldn't, you know those? These were people, good people, who were looking just trying to survive every day. Finding firewood was was a goal. In the morning, when the women got up, getting water from the well, finding something to eat, that's what their life was. So how was I received in the beginning, they kind of it was based on perception of who Americans are. They thought that I was going to as the American guy showing up in their village. I am rich. I have all the answers to life, and I have trunk truckloads of medicine and and so in the beginning, I would wake up in the morning, there'd be a line of people outside my mud hut waiting to meet me, so that they could ask me if I could help them, which I couldn't. I mean, not like that. I mean, I was there to help them as a village. But eventually, eventually, even though they were, they would call me this. The term they used for me was Nasara. And then anytime I walk around the village, and I was told eventually, initially it was stranger, but no, it actually met white guys. So it was I was received well and made some friends again. It's hard to make friends when you have absolutely nothing in common and you can't share or express or it's just hard. So I would get up in the morning and I would go to the marketplace, and I, once a week, I could find one tomato, and every morning that they would kill a goat and cook the goat meat on the grill, and I would eat goat meat. And then eventually, you know, it's you've heard of on island time. It's the same way out there. It's they say, I'll see you later. That might mean in three weeks. Very slow, slow, slow life. It's to slow down. Is the challenge, especially for an American, to go into a village and then just realize that no one's in a rush and back to. Just back when I didn't have there were no cell phones, and I had one little short wave radio I could bounce off a signal from Europe. But other than that, I had absolutely no communication with the outside world. My world were my villages. What tell me Michael Hingson  25:14 what it was like being in a mud hut and what a mud hut is all about. Tom Barna  25:21 So, you know, Michael Hingson  25:23 and what, and what happens, it rains. But that's another story. Yeah, no, Tom Barna  25:27 I was one of the fortunate ones on my mud hut. I had, like, a 10, so 10, a 10 roof, which, first of all, doesn't rain very much. I'm, I'm in the desert. I mean, in the desert, on bruises, literally, on the edge of the Sahel. I mean, it's just, it just doesn't rain. I mean, when it does, it's, it's a disaster, but it doesn't rain very much. But there's no furniture. There's no plumbing. I mean, my, my, I had a kind of a hole in the ground outside, which is where my sanitation, but it was kind of interesting. They would have these clay pots that they would fire fire. And you would, what you could do is you put them in a corner of your one of the rooms, and you, you put sand underneath it, and you, if you fill it with water. I don't I never understood the physics, but it actually the water would actually be cooler, and get cool than anything else, if you just left it outside. But then I would get one pail of water, one bucket, a bucket of water every day from a lady who would go two kilometers away and pull it out of a well, and then she would deliver it to me. And my one bucket of water was for washing, eating whatever I wanted. So, so it's, it's my mother or my grandmother, somebody sent me over, you know, eventually a hammock, which was awesome, because I didn't have to lay on the ground, on a straw mat. But I'll tell you a story. One night when I was laying in my hammock, in the middle of the night, I started like I was in being electrified, shocked like, like electricity was going through my body. It was, it was horrendous, and I fell out. But of course, there wasn't electricity. I was covered in man eating ants or something. It was a nightmare. But that's what it's like living in a mud hut. There's, there's, there's really no protection from anything, and it's you may as well be living outside, but, but you know, it is a place to collect yourself and and find some sanity. Michael Hingson  27:40 What did you do about the bugs when they invaded your body? Tom Barna  27:45 Yeah, so there was a hell of a swine swiping them off my body. It's only happened once. I don't even know where they came from, because there's really nothing alive out there. I mean, it was just amazing. So it was kind of shocking to say the least. But no, I didn't have there were, there were mosquitoes, which is why I, in that area where I lived, is one of the more dangerous forms of malaria, and we take, I believe that I can remember the name of the medication. It's called airline but, but there's medication that's supposed to it keeps you from dying. But there's, there's like, there's no vaccine, there's nothing preventative to keep it from from getting malaria when you're bitten, and all it does is you try to keep you alive. And we would take, I would take two pills every Sunday. But when you contact contracted the malaria, you basically OD on the pills because you need it, otherwise you wouldn't survive. And one time I caught it and and it's what happened. I don't know if you're familiar with malaria, but it's like fevers, chills. Fevers chills. Your body just goes back and forth. Finally, there's your body just gives out, and eventually you lay down a dock. But I did lay down and I was gone. I didn't really think I buy cold, cold world. You know, it's not like that. I mean, I had this for a couple days, and it was just I was delirious a little bit. But finally, I'm gone. I'm laying I'm laying there on the ground in my little mud hut. And next thing I know, I'm being awakened by an old French missionary who had was coming, just by chance, was coming through the town and came to want to see the this Peace Corps volunteer guy. So he came in on my family on the ground, and the East was French, and he their method is they could use pKa shots. So he was shooting me in my thighs, inner thighs, and he stayed with me for two or three days, nursed me back. And it was, it was fine. I couldn't give blood for seven years. But other than that, the. I've heard that you can have reoccurrences of this, of the disease, but I never did. So thank God. Michael Hingson  30:06 So after two years, you came back. Tom Barna  30:10 I did. I, of all places, I landed in Las Vegas, Nevada, where family was so in the middle of the night. So I go from a mud hut and and nothingness, and I land in Las Vegas, Nevada in the middle of the night, and you talk about, I can remember the shock. It was just I lost a lot of weight, so I was kind of thinned out, and I was in shock, and I ended up staying for a year. It was, I guess I was catching up on life, and it was so much fun. And so one day I said, I know this is not my destinies. To Las Vegas. It was fine for that year. In fact, that's probably too long, but so out of the blue, again, as was my nature, I go and I try to join the military. I tried the Army, the Air Force, and the Marine Corps. And the Air Force didn't have any openings. The army did and the Marine Corps did. I knew nothing about the Marine Corps, but this is, this is kind of sad any Marines are watching. But the reason I chose the Marine Corps was not because of of all that it stands for, and all that it is, but I had to go get a physical in Phoenix, Arizona, for for the military. And the army was going to send me by bus, but the marine corps were going to fly me down. So that's why I chose the Marine Corps, because they were going to fly me to my physical. Kind of sad, but that's why I chose it, and off I went. Be 22 years. Michael Hingson  31:45 So what did you then do? Tom Barna  31:49 So once, so I went to went to training, so I had a degree, so I was in the officers program. So it's, which is was important to me. I thought at that time I wanted to be a commissioned officer again. I didn't really know what all I meant. My dad was not a commissioned officer. So I had I was not against being a non commissioned I just Well, I have a degree, so why don't I see if I can take advantage of that? So I went through their officers training class in Quantico, Virginia, Quantico, right? And it was probably, I mean, it was, it's like being back in Peace Corps boot camp. I had no idea what I was getting. I had no idea, totally unprepared. And I'm in June and July and August. And if you know, you know Quantico, those are hot luck. And I went. I was not in shape, and I had it wasn't until I got halfway through that a light went on, and I finally realized I wanted to be a Marine. And so now I had new motivation. So got my commission, and while I went off to the next another six months of training with the Marine Corps, and it's called the basic school in Quantico, Virginia, which, again, I didn't even know I was going to have to do that. It turns out there's more school involved so much i didn't know i which is, again, if you know anything about me, it's odd that I didn't prepare a little bit, but while I was in the six month training, on a blind date, I met my beautiful wife, Carmen, and so we met in November. I proposed to her in January. We got married in March, so it's a very short and I was on the weekends because I was in training, and we just celebrated this last year, I think, 42 years together. So we our first duty station was in Okinawa, Japan, and off I went in my Marine Corps. Wow, Richie, go ahead. I told you I could blab blab blab. Michael Hingson  33:58 Non Stop. You're You're doing fine. So you went through all the training, you decided to be motivated, and then what did you do as a Marine? Tom Barna  34:10 So I I knew I was probably not the toughest guy on the block. And Marines are tough in general, right? I mean, that's what we count on. So I'm like, Well, I'm probably not going to be the best infantry man on the planet with the Marines. So I was able, fortunately, to choose what's called logistics. So basically it's a management of people, equipment and systems. So that was my specialty, which was another three months of training, but I got through that. Loved it. So basically, I did things initially in my career, I loaded some of the largest ships. I was in charge of loading some of the largest ships out there. I've loaded equipment and on trains and in planes. It's amazing. But I did it and my. First assignment in the Marine Corps in Japan was to a unit which, again, doesn't exist anymore, called first track vehicle battalion, which had tanks and amtraks. Those are those amphibious vehicles that swim from ship to shore. And it was amazing, because that unit always deployed, you know, when on missions out of the Pacific. I loved it, so that was my first duty assignment, and that's what I did. So I learned it. I thought I wasn't too bad at it, because I could manage people, equipment and systems within the Marine Corps. Michael Hingson  35:34 So, so you ended up moving around again, yep. Tom Barna  35:42 So did you know Kanawha? I had a good tour, so I ended up on a career path such that I found myself as a recruiter in charge of the check this out. My area of responsibility as a recruiter, an officer recruiter. So I recruited students, basically in college to join our programs in the Marine Corps. And I had southern Washington, all of Oregon, Western Idaho, Hawaii and Guam. So I could because Guam was over the International Date Line, right? So I could literally work eight days a week. It's pretty amazing, but so yeah, I recruited for three years, and that's where I first met General Jim Mattis. They call him an ad Dog Mattis, but I knew him. He was my boss. I knew him when he was a major and one of the most extraordinary men in my life. And I would meet him again the second time I went into the desert for war, but that was the first time. Was he was my boss in recruiting, and I was fishing in Corvallis, Oregon. There you go. Michael Hingson  36:58 Well, so you, you've been both you in the original Gulf War, and then you fought in Afghanistan, or you served in Afghanistan as well. Yeah, so Tom Barna  37:09 the Gulf, the first Gulf War I was stationed, and at that time I had been transferred to Hawaii. I know, tough duty, but it was a Kaneohe Marine Corps Air extension. And it was in during that tour that I ended up in Saudi Arabia in just just north or just south of the Kuwait border. So I was one of the first in, and therefore, almost a year later, was one of the first out. So that was an amazing, obviously, experience. I can tell you this, that when I went, because I've been on so many deployments and so many events where they this could be something. This might be a big this could be the big one. You know, you do that, you know, he was just like, okay, so you don't, you know, developing and you know negatively anticipation about anytime going into but going to the Middle East. Okay, so it's, it's, I'm coming home. Okay, I'll tell you two little stories about coming home again. I'm out. I didn't know that this was going to be a war when I left right, and then, of course, we all know what happened. Now I'm on my way along. The war is over. Some of the very first guys returning. So my plane lands in LA, and we give it, are given opportunity to get off the plane and go to the terminal there get a coke or whatever. I've been honest to us, they had announced over the intercom that that war veterans right out of the desert are at Gate, whatever, 16. So I didn't know that. None of us knew that had happened. So I get off the plane, I'm one of the first off, and I walk into the terminal, and it seems like 1000s of people are screaming and sharing. It was overwhelming. I had no idea. Because, again, I didn't know what went on back in the world, back back home, when people saw their TVs, Scud missiles, I didn't know any of that. I only know what I was doing out in the desert. So the second little story I'll tell you is, so I'm on the bus. We landed on Honolulu, got on the bus, head back to my base, and I, kind of, I was, I was a captain. I had a I was a commanding officer for a unit of around 230 Marines and some sailors. And so you have, you know, you have to sort of maintain a certain demeanor, right? When you're the boss, you got to keep in mind that you know that you have to set, set the pace, be the leader, set the example, etc, so you really don't have time to reflect personally and, you know, and get emotional, all that kind of stuff. So I'm on the bus heading all. Home. I'm like, a couple miles from from the base, and I internally allow myself to lose it a Marine. I was like, I was, I covered my hand my face and put my head on the window. But I I couldn't stop being so choking up and emotional. I was coming home, and then I got, I get off the bus, and I'm looking for my wife and my three babies. And they all had, they had chicken pox, all of them, so they had scarves in their heads, and they were the little girls were so very Daddy wasn't gonna love them anymore because they had chicken pox. But I grabbed all my my three kids and my wife, I embraced them, and then, then, also I could feel the lights of TV cameras were on us, so I was whispering into my wife's ear. Whatever you do, you don't pull away. I don't want any of these. This is our moment, not theirs. And sure enough, it worked out. But yeah, so I came home and moved on with my career. And so now you know, you talk about you I know Michael Hingson  41:03 grant without all with all your traveling and all that, how did you meet your wife and how did all that work out? Yeah, so it was a blind date. Tom Barna  41:09 So I was, I had a buddy when I was in training who had, he was dating someone, and I, I said, Well, I won that date. Can you set me up. So it was through Steve, my buddy Steve Beckel, Martin, and his now wife, Tessie. They turned me on to my wife Carmen. And so her greatest concern meeting me again a blind date, was that I wasn't going to be like eight foot, you know, nine or something, but I'm five eight, so she was appreciative of the fact that I wasn't too tall. But that's yeah, so that's how I met her. And she's a she's from the Philippines, she's a Filipina, and she's, like, we dated just on weekends, so it's only time I could see here was on the weekends. But yeah. So it's been a beautiful life with my wife. Michael Hingson  42:05 How long you been married now? Tom Barna  42:07 42 years. Michael Hingson  42:09 Oh, well, there you go. We Yeah, my wife and I were married 40 years until she passed away in November of 2022 so it's rare nowadays that you find people who are married that long, but it's the greatest thing. Tom Barna  42:22 Well, I read your book, so I know that she was an amazing person, so we were both very blessed. Michael Hingson  42:29 Oh, I think so so. So tell me your thoughts about September 11, that I don't how did you hear about it, and what do you think about that? Tom Barna  42:41 So at that time, I was in a Marine Corps program where I could, it's like, it's not the reserves, it's a kind of a different program where I could, I basically was would replace an active duty officer who went forward to go forward in a war. So two months every year, every April, every August, believe it or not, here I go. I'm back. I'm living in Minnesota by at this time, but I would fly back in April and August for a month each time and train in my with my unit in Hawaii, basically learning the job and position of an officer I would, I would replace if he went forward in combat. So again, you know, I am not anticipating anything. It's just it was a great program, and I love those Marines and marine force specific. So I'm as a kind of a civilian job. I work for Minnesota Department of Transportation, and the day of the attack, it's our responses were just like everybody else. At first, disbelief. My boss had a TV in his office, and we thought a little plane hit the you know, it's just like everybody else. We all thought the same thing. Nobody could imagine the severity of what was about to happen that day. Yeah. But finally, after the second plane in the to the towers, I remember distinctly telling my boss, we're going to walk and I I'm, I suspect I'm going to be called up Sure enough, within two weeks, my counterpart on active duty, he called now he's the guy I'm supposed to replace when he goes, goes off to fight the war, right? So it didn't work out that way. He called me, said, I can't believe I'm telling you this, but you're going and I'm staying. He's staying. So that's how, that's when I yeah, that's, that's how I found out about, you know, 911 was watching it on TV in my boss's office, and none of us truly grasp the enormity of it. Obviously, no, it just it was unimaginable. So you weren't necessarily afraid. I wasn't. I just knew we were going to war, and at that time, Afghanistan. And Osama bin Laden was the name floating out there again. I wasn't expecting to be shipped off to the Middle East. I thought I would just take my position and get marine force Pacific in Hawaii. But nonetheless, that's how I that's how I found out, and I I had obviously learned a lot more about it when I got back from the desert. So I would actually shipped off to I was one of the first, one of the first Marines. Again, oddly enough, I landed in Bahrain, and that was going to be our, our turn the off point into Afghanistan. So we had a base series. That's, that's where I was located initially, but so all my guys were flying and doing all those sorties, not my guys personally, but the people that I support. We're flying shorties, all the initial sorties and into Afghanistan. It's just a hop, skip, but a jump over the water from where I was. But did I answer your question. Michael Hingson  46:03 What I'm really curious about is, and I've never really talked to too many people about this, but when we invaded Iraq, I think there, there were a lot of people who questioned whether that was a wise thing to do. What do you think about the fact that we invaded Iraq? Did we take our eye off the ball and didn't focus as much on Bin Laden as we should have? Was it appropriate to go into Iraq? I mean, those questions Saddam Hussein was a scrounge but logistically or tactically, was that the right thing to do? You think? Tom Barna  46:41 Well, you have to my mindset at the time. I ask you a question, but my mindset of the time was, as a Marine is, and I actually did some of the initial planning into the Iraq invasions on the screen, very, very early stages, again, not really knowing what was going to happen, per se, because we were there for Afghanistan. So now you have to remember, I'm going to go back to the first Gulf War. I remember there was a lot of discussion when George Bush chose not to go into Baghdad. In fact, once we we knocked out his army and won the war, George Bush was happy to bring the boys home and the girls. So there was a lot of talk there. Why didn't we go in and just take this guy out then? But I gotta retaliate. Being up there in the desert and the edge where I was for that time, I was glad to come home. I left the politics and all of that to the generals and the incidents. So I was okay with not going into Baghdad. Then now, 10 years later, you know, we got again, and it's, it's peculiar, because I'm not again. I'm out in the in the desert, so to speak. I'm not really exposed to all of the politics and the discussions. I don't, I don't know any of that. I mean, my my head and where we were at was to do our job, and if that meant and going in to get Saddam this time, I actually was okay with go get go. Let's go get them. Now. I was ready. But again, I wasn't really, I didn't really know the good, the bad, the ugly of it, yeah, in retrospect, because I think I'm allowed some allowed to comment, to answer your question. More specifically, I was a mistake, I think in an error. I mean, it all was so dependent upon the intel that wasn't right. I mean, Saddam didn't have nukes. If he had nukes, I would have I would feel differently. Michael Hingson  48:49 But different question, different story. Tom Barna  48:51 Yeah, and it was but, but the Americans were being sold on the fact and everyone could support that these guys nukes and these we know he's a crazy man. We know what he's capable of, then you kind of like, yeah, we gotta, we gotta do this. Now, I don't know how I again. I don't know if it was a personal problem. What got us in that direction again, back off to Iraq, and why we didn't focus on Afghanistan, to answer your question, but yeah, I did what, Michael Hingson  49:19 in essence, but you were a Marine, and you did what you were told. And, yeah, that's okay. Tom Barna  49:25 It isn't. I didn't feel any moral problems with at the time. But again, I was not as exposed to what everybody else back in the country knew. I didn't, you know, the whole thing with the Secretary of State, you know, briefing the UN about the nukes and this and that, I didn't know he did that. I was had no exposure to that, so I didn't, I couldn't form an opinion. There was a stuff Michael Hingson  49:49 I didn't know. There wasn't a whole lot of skepticism about whether what he was telling the the UN was true or not, anyway, even then. But without I was, I was. Curious. I I think that, you know, war is such a horrible thing, but I, I've always thought that we did take our eye off the ball on Afghanistan a little bit, and probably shouldn't have done that. But again, I'm not one of the people who was up there and who knew everything that there was to know, but I think that there were a number of people who did realize that the whole idea of weapons of mass destruction and nukes and all that wasn't necessarily accurate. But who knows, Tom Barna  50:34 and you're and you know, if you go, if we had just focused on Afghanistan, I can tell you that there's a lot of complexities, similar to Vietnam, you don't always know who the enemy is. I mean, it's it would have been a long, drawn out, as it ended up being anyway. It's never going to be if we hadn't committed resources and effort towards Iraq. That doesn't necessarily mean we would have finished any sooner in shutting down, capturing, you know, bin Laden, Michael Hingson  51:06 yeah, well, tell me, after all of that was done, you ended up becoming a playwright. Tell me more about that story. Tom Barna  51:13 Okay, so, so I'm gonna get a little personal here. Okay, and I don't I have confessing something I don't tell hard to anybody, but, but, but I tell you like nobody else will know, right? This is way between you and me, okay, but I had a drinking problem, as one might maybe imagine. Could be. Could could be the case, but I was all my friends and family, everybody was in denial. So there was nobody grabbing me by the shoulder and saying, Tom, you know, all these things that have happened to you because of booze, you know, maybe there's a problem going on here. Maybe we should have tried. I never got that. Didn't happen. So mentally, in my mind, I knew I had a problem. When you're racing home as fast as you can to get to the bar and then you're going to close the bar, it's there's a problem. So what one night I got mugged and robbed, and I don't remember anything of that night, but it was I had a punctured eardrum, a broken finger, and but wow, it was that wake up call. And so I went out. I'm an RV here, so I have you know, I can't Berlin, went out to a local lake here and spent two weeks on the lake, on that lake, Lake Elysian. And just to collect myself and say, Okay, what that? What's going on here? You run this certain awesome trajectory, and then, you know, alcohol has, has done things to you. You You have done things because of alcohol. It's not the path anymore that you you had initially intended to traverse. So I spent two weeks asking myself, I made deals with God. I know you're not supposed to do that, but I did. I made deals with God, and I from that moment, that night, that I got mud to the today, so it's a lot of years I haven't touched a drop. I haven't I did go through it out program. I did receive help, I I went through the counseling process. I did all that and but I haven't touched a drop, and I don't have a temptation. But the funny thing is, when you're drunk, you spend a lot of time with the bars, and when you're drunk, most of your friends are at the bar and they're drunk. So one day when you wake up and you're not a drunk anymore, and you realize those aren't my friends, or if they were, I don't even know who they are, and I found myself with a lot of downtime, like, what am I going to do now? I don't have hangovers, I'm not sick. I'm not ill. It's crazy. So part of the deal when I was out at the lake was, what is it that I really wanted to do? What if I always wanted to do that? I never did. I had planned. I thought I would, to my youth, want to do it, but I never did. And I was writing, and I'm not even trained. I have no such skills. I just said, Okay, I'll do that. I said, I'll do that because I believed in myself again. I didn't I was a bit naive. I didn't realize what I don't know. I learned my first couple of years what I don't know, and then I learned it, but it was because of my drinking problem and leaving that and finding now and meeting a new life that I became a playwright. And that's I've been a playwright now for about 15 years, full time. It's, it's, it's my passion. Michael Hingson  54:56 Has you always wanted to be a playwright? Tom Barna  54:58 Then I wanted to. Conscious, yeah, I wanted to write. I didn't, you know, it's like, when I when I want to write, write books. I've always written lyrics. I've written lyrics all my life, poetry, but like, it didn't appeal to me as much. Like writing books. I don't even know what that means. Writing plays. What does that mean? Well, I discovered what being a playwright was all about. I'm like, Yeah, that's what I want to do, and whatever it takes, whatever I have to do, no matter how bad I am, that's what I want to do. So that's kind of weird, I guess. Michael Hingson  55:37 So what kind of plays or things have you written? Tom Barna  55:42 I am definitely I write a lot. So I nonstop. I have, I have a whole process that I use to develop plays, create plays, write plays, edit plays, get plays, produce, blah, blah, blah. It's a long, long process, but I write, I prefer to write full length plays and but my bread and butter, as I discovered early on, was also write short plays, because theater companies around the around the country really into short play festivals, and my odds were tremendously improved In getting produced if I wrote shorter plays, short plays, 10 to 20 minutes in length, full length plays anywhere from hour and a half to two and a half hours. So so my preference is the full length play is, it's really but it's it's so much harder to get produced because there's I change happened in our country when it comes to the theater. There was a time, 25 years ago when theater companies were making money, and we're community, theaters were making money, and the process was all these theater companies, in essence, would adopt emerging playwrights, and emerging playwrights would get would have a chance to get their work performed on stage and learn from that process. But as the years went on, theater companies, local community theater, were having a hard time making money. So they weren't going to make any money off a Tom BARDA play. They're going to make money off Oklahoma. So that's what a majority of the companies, theater companies around the country, and I don't blame them. They got to fill the seats, they got to sell the tickets, but we lost the process there where emerging playwrights could learn from the process of success, failure, etc, the whole concept of getting produced on stage. But fortunately, this new process developed in the theater world, and it's called the conferences, which I I'd be happy to share with you if you want. But yeah, so I like writing full length, and I drama, comedy. I've done musicals. I like everything. It's just, I have, I have ideas. And I was people, have I draw a blank? I didn't know what Michael Hingson  58:12 to write about. Have you written any plays that have become fairly well noticed that we might have heard of? Tom Barna  58:19 No, okay, not I would I have been produced across the country, but no, I watched some of your guests who've got some pretty extraordinary, accomplished writers as guests. I'm not there yet, but I've had great I have considered myself great success. I I've done well. So I'm I'm not, I'm not complaining. But no, I haven't been on New York or Chicago or LA, but the play I'm working on now, that's how I my mindset is, this could be the one. There you go. This could. But you know, my passion is such that even if it's not, I love it. I'm passionate about it. I'm still going to do it. I will tell you this the thing in the theater world. I wish I had, kind of, I had gotten to know these people sooner, and I watch you some of your shows. You can see it. There's a there's a certain community ship that exists in the in the in the arts. And I can tell you that in theater, for example, we're all that customs are rejection. Can you imagine actors auditioning and being rejected, auditioning being rejected, playwrights submitting plays being so it's kind of a we support one another because of this rejection, familiarity and that we all survive and we support one another. It's amazing the love that I have come to know in the arts world that I didn't know really was out there. They're good people, and I love them, and I'm glad to be part of them. Michael Hingson  59:50 If you were to talk to someone who's frustrated with life, or maybe a young person so on, what do you. Is the most important life lesson that you can impart to them. Tom Barna  1:00:04 Don't be afraid to make mistakes. Know that everybody makes mistakes. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to fail. But the most important advice I would give is to set goals, have goals, and then what a lot of people do is set goals, but they don't set objectives to accomplish those goals. They just they don't devise plans. Planning on your goals is just as important as setting goals and then evaluate yourself. How am I doing? You know, am I? Am I there yet? What am I? What can I do differently? But in the in the arts world, it's nothing will come easy and true, true enough. You could win your Tony Award next month, and then everybody forgets you six months later. Yeah, you have to, you have to know that that really, that world exists. So don't expect Tony's every month and and just and if you can find a passion, you got to be passionate. Like I can tell Michael you're passionate about what you do. I mean, it's amazing to see that come off you. That's what you have to have. And I don't know you can give that advice. And how does one teach passion? But find something you like, something you want, set goals. Go after it, make mistakes, fail, keep going. Michael Hingson  1:01:33 I think one of the most important parts about what you just said is it isn't enough to set the goals. You have to have a plan to achieve them. It's like New Year's resolutions. Everybody makes all these resolutions every year. Those are great goals. Never plans how they're going to achieve the resolution. And I, I don't set new year's resolutions. I set goals for myself, but I also do think about, how am I going to accomplish this? What am I going to do? What do I need to do? And actually, sometimes I'll think about goals, and then I'll think about what I want to do and how I'm going to do it before I actually set the goal. And then by the time I set the goal, I really understand this is what the process is. This is what the the outcomes need to be. This is what I'm sacrificing to get there. But I have already decided I can do it whatever it happens to be, Tom Barna  1:02:26 and you have been quite successful with that process. Michael Hingson  1:02:29 I think life is fun, you know, and I think we all need to learn to live life and and also, I'm perfectly happy associating with a lot of other people asking for help. I love collaboration, so I think that's a very important thing to do. Well, thank Tom Barna  1:02:45 you for bringing that, bringing that up, because I do want to throw this out there. Because, yeah, I know that I always teach my kids it's not about me, me, me, me. I want that to come across here, that any success I've had, or any any of the good stuff was all because of me. It wasn't. I have heroes. My mom, most amazing Joyce Barna, person on the planet. My brother, my sister, my wife, is extraordinary. My My children are my heroes. So then all of my best friends in the in the arts world, we all help one another, work with each other, and it just can't be done alone. So it's important to to be in a community, to find a community, and sometimes that starts with your family, Michael Hingson  1:03:34 and it's more successful when it isn't alone. I've written three books, and I've collaborated. It's been a collaborative effort each time, and I've learned so much more by doing that, and I think we've written so much better materials because of that. I think that's really so important to do. Tom Barna  1:03:53 I better not forget to name my sister Beverly. There you Michael Hingson  1:03:56 go. Yeah. Otherwise, she's going to come and Tom Barna  1:03:59 get you. And one last person I want to throw out there. You know, I don't know if you've ever had a muse, or is really need for a muse in your in your career, but for me, in the beginning, I had a news Frank Cesario, and this guy was amazing. He would blow smoke up my skirt telling me how great I was. He was the most encouraging person I've ever known. He would go out of his way to help me get produced. It was if you have someone like that in your life, feel blessed. Michael Hingson  1:04:32 Yeah, yeah. It's so important. Well, I want to thank you for being here. You know, we've been doing this over an hour. We've been having fun or what? No way. And so I want to thank you for being here with us and being part of unstoppable mindset. I really appreciate it. I want to thank all of you who are out there who have listened to this podcast, who learned a lot and got a chance to listen to some really great life lessons. Lessons from Tom Barna, and I hope that you'll take it to heart. I think there's a lot that we can all get from a podcast episode like this, and I hope that you all will. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear what you think about the episode. Please email me. Michael, H, I m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and Tom, if people want to reach out to you and contact for whatever reason, how do they do that? Tom Barna  1:05:31 Well, I have a website, Minnesota playwright dot, Weebly. That's W, E, B, l, i.com Minnesota playwright.weebly.com if you go on there on my website, Minnesota, playwright.weebly.com My contact information is on it. Thank you for asking Michael Hingson  1:05:50 any place to watch or listen to there. Tom Barna  1:05:54 Um, actually, there's a lot of really good stuff about my plays, current and future and past. So it's a good place to go. Great. Michael Hingson  1:06:01 Well, thank you for for that. I hope people will reach out again. As I said, I'd love to get your opinions. Love to hear what you think about our episode today. We really would appreciate it if you give us a five star rating and a review. Please review us. We value that a lot. So hope that you'll do it. If you know anyone who ought to be a guest, or who you think ought to be a guest, an unstoppable mindset and Tom that includes you. If you think of anyone who you think ought to be a guest, please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to help show all of us that we can be more unstoppable than we think, the than we think we are. But again, Tom, I just want to thank you. It's been great to have you here. This has been fun. So thanks very much for your time today. Thanks, Michael, you take care, buddy. Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others, I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening, keep learning, keep questioning, and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset. You.

What if the real secret to business growth is not creativity but competition? I sat down with Chris Dreyer, founder of Rankings.io, who built one of the fastest-growing legal marketing companies by mastering SEO, niche focus, and relentless execution. Chris shares how his early work ethic shaped his path, why he chose the highly competitive personal injury space, and how treating business like a math-based game helped him scale. You will hear how content, reviews, and authority drive Google rankings, why most lawyers misunderstand marketing, and how narrowing your focus can actually expand your results. I believe you will find this useful as Chris shows how discipline, data, and consistency can turn any business into an unstoppable force. Highlights: 00:56 – How early work and family habits built a strong work ethic05:00 – Why taking the hardest job created resilience and grit12:12 – How serving people helped develop communication and confidence24:22 – Why choosing a competitive niche leads to greater success37:08 – What it takes to rank at the top of Google consistently51:16 – How doing free work early builds skill and long-term growth Bottom of Form About the Guest: Chris Dreyer is the CEO and Founder of Rankings.io, the category-defining SEO agency built exclusively to help elite law firms and personal injury lawyers dominate Google’s organic search results. Under his leadership, Rankings.io has become synonymous with measurable results, helping attorneys secure life-changing cases through visibility at the exact moment potential clients are searching for help. The company has achieved what few in the legal marketing space ever have, earning a spot on the Inc. 5000 list of fastest-growing private companies for eight consecutive years, proof of both sustained growth and relentless execution. Beyond Rankings, Chris is a builder of platforms and a voice of authority in legal marketing and entrepreneurship. He is the Wall Street Journal and USA Today best-selling author of Niching Up: The Narrower the Market, the Bigger the Prize, where he details how focus creates outsized impact. He is also a seasoned real estate investor and the host of the Personal Injury Mastermind podcast, where he interviews top attorneys and business leaders shaping the future of law. His influence extends across respected councils and networks, including the Forbes Agency Council, Rolling Stone Culture Council, Business Journals Leadership Trust, Fast Company Executive Board, and Newsweek Expert Forum, cementing his reputation as both a practitioner and thought leader. Chris’s path to entrepreneurship has been unconventional yet relentlessly instructive. Once a world-ranked collectible card game competitor, he carried that same strategic mindset into business. After earning a History Education degree, his first professional role was as a detention room supervisor, hardly glamorous, but it provided the unstructured time that sparked his obsession with digital marketing. He began experimenting with affiliate sites and, at his peak, managed more than 100 properties simultaneously. This side hustle soon eclipsed his day job, propelling him into full-time entrepreneurship. When affiliate marketing’s golden age waned, Chris pivoted into legal SEO and quickly carved out a niche. Along the way, he also became a top-ranked online poker player, honing skills in risk management and probability that would serve him well in scaling his companies. Today, Chris runs Rankings.io with the same competitive fire he once brought to cards and poker, driven to outthink, outwork, and outlast the competition. His mission is simple: help the best personal injury law firms win more cases, build enduring legacies, and dominate their markets. Ways to connect with Chris**:** website: rankings.io https://x.com/chrisdreyerco https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrisdreyerco/ https://www.facebook.com/chrisdreyerco https://www.instagram.com/chrisdreyerco/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:04 What if the biggest thing holding you back isn't what's in front of you, but rather what you believe Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I'm your host. Michael Hingson, speaker, author and advocate for inclusion and possibilities. This podcast explores how the beliefs we carry shape the way we live, lead and connect with others. Each week, I talk with people who challenge assumptions, face adversity head on and show what's possible when we choose curiosity over fear, together, we focus on mindset resilience and the small shifts that lead to meaningful change. Let's get started. Hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. Today, our guest is Chris Dreyer. Chris, Chris has formed a company called rankings.ai. And I'm going to let him describe what all that is about. And he's done some pretty interesting things with it. It has been on inks top 5000 companies, growing companies for the past eight years. Eight years is a long time, which is pretty cool. So I'm sure he's got lots of adventures and lots of stories to talk about. So Chris, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're Chris Dreyer  01:35 here. Yeah, thanks for having me, Michael. I'm excited to chat. Michael Hingson  01:39 Well, let's start with kind of the early Chris growing up and all that, and see where we go from there. It sounds Chris Dreyer  01:45 good to me. So yeah, Michael Hingson  01:46 let's go. Why don't you tell us a little bit about Yeah, school and all that stuff. Chris Dreyer  01:51 Okay, yeah, let me, let me, and then you just cut me off at any point, because I can be a long Michael Hingson  01:55 talker the so can I? I Chris Dreyer  01:56 know what you mean. I, I grew up in a very small city, elkville, Illinois, my high school had 100 people in it. I was a graduating class of 28 I grew up, I would say it's kind of weird. My mom and dad, if they heard me say poor, would not love me saying poor, but I we weren't. We were certainly at the bottom of middle class or the upper or poor. I had a lot of chores. I every single weekend, I cleaned a law office with my mom or did something at the farmers market. So and at the time, it wasn't work. It was just what we did as a family, right? I didn't even understand it. We had, we didn't have city water. We had to get a truck and bring in our water, and we had well water, right? And in my family, and that was, that was early on, right? My dad was a milk carrier. My mom was a cook and and ultimately, they did better over the years and made more money. But it started off, it was a lot, a lot of grit, perseverance, working hard. And I like to share that, because my parents work ethic is very strong, very dependable, very consistent. And that's kind of where I got my drive. But that's, that's kind of how I grew up, small, small town, you know, a lot of side hustles with the parents. And once I went to college, I got that, that shock of, oh, here's a whole bunch of go from 100 to, you know, 20,000 Yeah, it's a bit of a shock there. 03:35 Where'd you go to college? Chris Dreyer  03:36 Yeah, I went to SIU, Southern Illinois University. There in Carbondale, Illinois. I actually live in Carbondale today. And, you know, I went to college. I was always had that entrepreneurial bug, and, but I went to college, it was kind of to make mom and dad happy to get that degree and, but I just knew that I was going to own my own business. And I kind of had that conversation with them out of the gate, but so I was a terrible student. Partied a lot, you know, chase the women, so to speak, and but somehow, ended up with a degree, got a job at a high school as their JV basketball coach, and I started doing internet marketing on the side to make a little extra money because I had some downtime. And by the end of my second year teaching, I was making about four times the amount doing that that I was teaching. So that was kind of my sign, and to go pursue that full time, and that's what I did. That's when I left to do affiliate marketing and digital marketing full time was after Michael Hingson  04:41 that second year, of course. Now the real question is, you were chasing the women? Did any of them 04:44 chase you? Oh yeah, oh yeah. Just Michael Hingson  04:49 want to make sure it's reciprocal here. Yeah, that's that's pretty cool, though. And I was going to ask you, and you sort of answered it, about your workout. Ethic and so on. I find that if people do grow up in an environment where they're working and they appreciate what they do get and the amount of work that they do, and they develop a strong work ethic, or their parents have it, they generally do as well, although sometimes there's some rebellions, but still, ultimately, the right stuff shows through. Chris Dreyer  05:24 Can I tell just a brief story about that? My mom, when I turned 16, it was like, you're getting a job, son, right? And it was not, we had, we were fine without, but it was like, so she took me to this place. It was called Ken's antiques, and they used to do the semi truck deliveries of aluminum, and I used to go to auctions and unload furniture. And I asked her, I was like, Why did you take me there? Well, you know, why didn't you take me to the mall? Why didn't you know to go work at a the buckle or the gap or something, you know, why did you take me? There she goes. Well, I knew if you could, if you could succeed here, you'd be fine anywhere, because it was the hardest job that I could think of. And I was like, Oh, really, thanks, Mom. Like, send me to the to the hardest job that you could think of and see if I could thrive. And I did well there. But that just kind of goes to show you the mindset that my mom had racing me, which also kind of, you know, attached to me as well. Michael Hingson  06:26 Yeah, well, and I can appreciate course, now looking back on it, of course, but I can appreciate what she said, because if you can survive in one place, and you can if it's if it is a tough job and you approach it the right way, then you'll probably be good anywhere, and there you go. Chris Dreyer  06:47 Yep, yep, to her credit, it was a very tough job. It is as still to this day, the hardest job from a physically demanding perspective that I had, but, but yeah, and it was good. It built resilience, you know, kind of helped me get that that put that true grit on and yeah, so that's kind of my background. Michael Hingson  07:08 I never did really work at a job growing up, my brother did. He worked at a restaurant and so on and bus tables and did other things. But I remember, when he got his first job, he went and applied at a at a restaurant, and the owner or manager, I guess probably both said, so, you know, we'll, we'll consider you. Would you do us a favor? There's some weeds out in the in the front, would you go pull those? And he said, within about a half hour, he got the whole place completely cleaned up of weeds. And the boss came out and said, You did all of that. And my brother said, Yeah. And guy said, You're hired. You know, amazing, you know, because my brother didn't even realize, I think at first, that that was really a test, but it was, and of course, he passed, which was cool. That's a great story, but I never got really to do much work. I kind of was more the intellectual guy in the family, and finding jobs would have been a little bit more of a challenge for me. I did do some babysitting, but that was about all I could do. I've been blind my whole life, and a lot of the jobs that were available in Palmdale, where I grew up in Southern California, were not jobs I was going to realistically be able to do anyway, but I could babysit, and that worked out pretty well. Yeah, yeah. So I mainly studied, Chris Dreyer  08:41 love it. So So studied. Can I? Can I do the reverse interview? What's some of your your top motivational books, business books? Because I'm sure you've got some that just pop top of the dome. Well, sort of, kind Michael Hingson  08:55 of, I really have a slightly different idea about that, but I'll tell you, I've read a number of the main books in the whole motivational and and management world. One Minute Manager is a book I appreciate a great deal. And I also like Dale Carnegie books like How to Win Friends and Influence People. But for me, I point out, and even to this day point out that I've learned more about teamwork and trust and leadership from working with eight Guide Dogs for the last 61 years than I ever learned from all the management and leadership books and everything else that's out there, mainly because working with dogs, you have several things that are An issue, first of all, respecting them and the job that they do, knowing that you're really forming a team with a guide dog, where each member of the team has a job to do. So in my case, the dog, and the case of people who use guide dogs, the purpose of the dog is to make sure that we walk safely as. We're walking somewhere, but my job is to know where to go and how to get there, and then I have to learn how to communicate that to the dog, and also be the leader of the pack in the truest sense of the word, which also means that if the dog is upset, or there is any kind of an issue with the dog, I have to figure out what that is, and I have to read what is going on so that I understand that and can then figure out what is occurring and make sure that the dog stays happy so it's you. There's so much to learn about trust, and one of the main things I've learned over the years is while dogs do, I think love unconditionally, unless they're just so badly traumatized by somebody for some reason they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is that dogs are open to trust a whole lot more than we are. We have just had so many things go on. We read we bought them in the newspapers, we see it on the news and so on. Nobody trusts anyone. The feeling is basically everyone has their own hidden agenda, and so you can't trust anyone. And so there's very little communications today. There's very little real interaction. And people, by definition, don't trust. Dogs are open to trust, and you can earn their trust, and likewise, they get to and can earn your trust, and it is a it is a combination and kind of thing. So what I really learn when I go to get a new guide dog every time is I'm learning how to form a team with this other dog who doesn't speak the same language I do, who doesn't think the way I do. But I have to figure out what this dog does, what this dog is all about, and I'm the one that has to become the leader of the of the team and make things work. So I think that working with a dog is a lot more of a practical experience kind of thing than just reading about whatever there is to read about in books and so on. So that's why I say that. I think I've learned a lot more by working with dogs than I ever got from all the management books in the world, any of the Tony Robbins books, or any Chris Dreyer  12:07 of those. I love, every bit of that I just I was on x the other day, and it was talking about the the new CEO for Starbucks, right? Because the former CEO was McKinsey trained, right, but didn't have any actual experience at the helm. And then they brought back the former CEO of Taco Bell over to Starbucks, and the stock immediately shot up because of the application aspect of it. He had, he had done the job and been in the grind. So it's kind of interesting, kind of corollary there. But yeah, thank you for sharing. I was really intrigued, and I had to jump in and and ask, Michael Hingson  12:45 Oh, fair question, and then this is a conversation, so nothing wrong with asking questions on either side. So it's perfectly fine to to be able to do that well, so what did you do right out of college? Chris Dreyer  12:59 Right out of college, the one thing I'll tell you that I still to this day, I call myself an introvert. I don't think that, you know, introvert, extrovert. I think we have the tendencies at all times to be either one, right? But I think for me, I was more shy, but I built a lot of friends because I played sports and I knew them in college, and then they met, they introduced me to their friends. Because you got to imagine, when I had a class of 28 kids, it's like super small community versus, you know, everybody I'm interacting through their connections and their extended connections. So through college, I'd say the main education thing I got was, I did get a job waiting tables for three years, and so I got a lot of client service training, dealing with people having a ton of conversations through that, through my through my job, and also through my personal relationships with my friends and and other, you know, Students at the University, but so I think that kind of helped, helped me succeed afterwards, but afterwards, really, when I student taught at Heron, they saw my work ethic. They saw a shoe up, that I showed up, that I listened and I took action. So they, they hired me immediately, and I did the same when I was a JV basketball coach. I never missed a practice. Was always on time. Really tried to develop the kids and bring the most out of them, treated the parents well, and so I think that's what I did well, and it kind of put me in the position to have time to learn internet marketing. So I think that's kind of how it all started, Michael Hingson  14:47 when I was getting my teaching credential at UC Irvine, and I also got my master's degree in physics from there. But I student taught at the local high school, at University High School, and I student. Taught two classes. One was a physics class, and it was kind of for they called it dumbbell physics, but you know, it was kids who were sort of interested in science, but really didn't know where they wanted to go. But the other class was algebra one, and I remember one day I was teaching, and one of the students asked a question, and I didn't know the answer to it, and I probably should have, but I didn't. But what I said was, I don't know the answer right off, tell you, what do you mind if I look at it tonight, get you the answer and bring it back tomorrow. And the kid who was an eighth grader, actually accelerated, so it was high school algebra one, but he was from the eighth grade. He said, Sure, so I went home and found the answer in the book, when I should have known that, but anyway, came back in the next day, and even before I could say anything, he said, Mr. Hingson, I went home and got the answer, and I said, Well, come up and write it on the board. And one of the things that I did with with all of my classes when, of course, we had blackboards and all that, back in those days, I would want a student to come up and be the board writer, because they write a lot better than I do. And so we, we had pretty good competitions of people who wanted to write on the board. They all thought it was kind of fun, and I did spread that wealth around, but Marty came up and I said, now you got to explain what you're writing. And he had actually found the answer, which was cool, but my master teacher was also the football coach, and when I first told Marty and the rest of the class, I don't know the answer, but I will get it after class was over, Mr. Redmond said you did something that's absolutely amazing and was absolutely the right thing to do, and most people wouldn't do it. And that was you admitted you didn't know the answer, but you would go get it rather than trying to blow smoke, because these kids can see through that in a second. And he said, So you did the right thing, and I've always felt that's the way to do it. If I don't know the answer, I'll go figure it out, but I will also tell you that I don't know the answer, and you can decide whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I think it's a good thing, to be honest, Chris Dreyer  17:22 I couldn't agree more. Michael Hingson  17:25 And so it was fun. And and what the the other part of the story, and I think I've told it a couple times on the podcast, is 10 years later, I was at the Orange County Fairgrounds, and this kid comes up to me, Well, he was, he didn't sound like a kid anymore. And he said, Mr. Hingson, do you know who this is? Deep voice. And I went, No, not right off. And he said, I'm Marty. I'm the guy that was in your algebra class 10 years ago. Nice to be remembered, but, but he he also just remembered what happened. And I think he even said it was so cool that I was honest with him about it, which was, you know, a life lesson anybody should learn. Chris Dreyer  18:09 That's incredible. That's incredible. So Michael Hingson  18:10 it was a lot of fun. Well, so you student taught and so on, but eventually you ended up deciding to go into the entrepreneur world. But you also were a card collector, right? A game collector, yeah. Chris Dreyer  18:25 And in high school, I played this collectible card game. I played a combination of two. I mean, most people are familiar with Magic, The Gathering, but I also played this other game called Legend of five rings. And both, you know, the collectible card games, but they're really math based games based upon advantage and and, you know, you so now it's applicable to today. I can look at any whether it's Pokemon or whatever card game there is. It's, it was very, you know, it's force based, you know, benefits to attack and things like that. It attributes everything. But anyways, I played it competitively, and I was a top I was a world ranked player at one time. I won four state championships or CO days. No one had done that at the time in a two consecutive years, and it was just a top player, and when you get to the top, you become friends with the other top players, and then you talk strategy and and that even takes you to an even higher level. And so I did that, you know, for many years, competed all over the country. It was a great experience. And so, yeah, that in my house. My dad very so he had, he was a civil engineer. He has an engineer degree, but he was traveling. He was on the railroad at all times, and he wanted to stop traveling, so he accepted this job as a mail carrier so he could stay put. And. Yeah, and that's what he did. He retired as a mail carrier, but, you know, a top math expert to the to the point where there would be conversations where you could, like, I couldn't understand him, right? He couldn't understand himself, right? And, and, and there's many conversations in different aspects of this. But when we played games, whether it was Yahtzee or monopoly or whatever, every game, there was a math based lesson to it, like, which dice you rolled for advantage at Yahtzee, which ones to hold after the first roll. Poker games, pitch games, Rummy, every single game it was, it was game theory. It was math on what was the precise the best role, like Monopoly, the best properties and the probability to get an orange property over other properties and and how much you should spend at certain points of the game. And I realized saying that outline that's that that's not normal. Some people just play yatse and roll the dice and they roll what they want, and some people play Monopoly and just buy the properties they want. That was not how games were played in my household, and it was very applicable to poker and to the collectible card games. Michael Hingson  21:22 Yeah. So how often did you want to buy Boardwalk and Park Place? Chris Dreyer  21:28 Not often. But I mean, so there. That was just how I was brought up. And yeah, and it turned into a lot of what I do today. Michael Hingson  21:42 Actually, I always like free parking. We had a thing where any money and and any kind of thing that you had to pay on all went into the free parking pot. So getting free parking was always fun. Oh yeah, but yeah, I hear what you're saying. I love monopoly and love to even play it against the computer, which was always a kind of a neat thing to do, but played Monopoly against other members of my family. Some we actually made a Well, we took a regular Monopoly board, and I think my father outlined the entire board and all the squares using elmer's glue so that we had raised lines for me to look at. Then we also did things to mark the paper money so I could tell what bills I had and and so on, and even Braille the cards. And I still have that game to this day, very neat, which is kind of cool, but monopoly spun. Chris Dreyer  22:36 Yeah, there's a lot of games that you know, there's no winner. You take my wife wants to play Scrabble all the time, and I'm like, there's just not a winner in Scrabble. Because if I challenge you on a word, and I'm right, you're wrong. You're mad if I beat you, you know, and then if I lose, it's not fulfilling for me. That's one of those games. There's no winner. Michael Hingson  23:02 I have a friend who plays Scrabble with his mother all the time, and and he, I think he loses more than he wins, but he's always proud when he beats her. And he's almost 60, so you know, she's, she's older than he is, but they, they play and have a lot of fun with Scrabble. Chris Dreyer  23:21 That's incredible. That's Michael Hingson  23:22 great. Yeah, it is kind of cool. But anyway, so you eventually decided to go off and go into the entrepreneurial world, and you started your company, or went well, when did you actually start the company? Chris Dreyer  23:37 Started the company officially in 2013 it was attorney rankings.org, that was the original name. Now it's rankings.io, I worked at a few agencies previously, while I was also doing the affiliate marketing, and kind of got to see the agency world of providing, you know, the professional services space. And after working at a few agencies. Thought that I could do it right. I got the confidence from the competence, and that's when I launched it. 2013 we've always been focused on legal. The difference today is primarily, we're focused on a sub niche of legal for personal injury law. And, you know, we work with other practice areas, criminal defense, family law, etc. But really personal injury is the is 85% of our business. Michael Hingson  24:27 So what is it that rankings.io? Does, Chris Dreyer  24:31 yeah, we do digital marketing. We do search engine optimization now, AI search, we do pay per click paid social web design. A lot of performance marketing, I would say more performance, less creative and branding. And that's what we do. We work with the top, the biggest pi firms, personal injury law firms in the country. We're in chiefs, I think every state we work with about. 250 law firms across the country. Michael Hingson  25:03 What made you decide to focus on law in the beginning? Chris Dreyer  25:09 Yeah, I'll say a few reasons. One, I had an experience working with attorneys, and I liked working with them. So there was the like component when I worked at an agency, I had a few firms that would I spoke with, and I enjoyed it. The second thing was, if I'm being honest, the status like I wanted to tell my parents that I did marketing for lawyers, and not just, you know, any industry. And then the other thing is, is I'm very, very, very competitive, and I kept seeing and hearing these reports about more and more attorneys going to law school and and just all this competition for legal and the thing that I differ you hear a lot of coaches and mentors. They'll say, hey, go to the blue ocean. You know, everyone's read the blue ocean book, or, you know, Peter thiel's zero to one, and everyone thinks so, go where there's no competition. And I'm like, That's fine if you're Elon or Peter Thiel or Zuckerberg creating something new, but if you're going into an existing category, you want to go where there is competition, because it demands expertise, and that's the way that I've looked at it. Like, you take the agency perspective, I don't want to go to, you know, lawn care, SEO like, do they really want to do search engine optimization? Do they really have a ton of competition? Maybe that's not a great example. But you get my point where, if you go into the city, there's a ton of personal injury law firms, but there's only a few that can rank at the top. And there's, they're all trying to gather cases from one another, so they want an expert to help them, you know, get that visibility. And that's, that's the mindset that Michael Hingson  26:58 went into it. What strikes me is interesting, though, is that with all of that, you bring a very competitive level to what you do. And I'm not sure that I find that a lot of people necessarily even do that, so you consider even search engine optimization to be a very competitive thing, I don't want to say sport, but you consider it all about competition, and you want to really bring the best and the most significant aspects of it to what you do. And that clearly has to show up when you're talking about Inc ranking you in the top companies for eight years in a row. Chris Dreyer  27:47 Yeah, it's very status orientation. You know, that's why I like working with trial attorneys. There's a winner and loser in court, and there's only one top position in Google or on these llms, and it's, who's gonna win, who's the best? Yeah, and it's right there for everyone. Here's here's the tally. Everyone can see who's the best. And I've always loved that. I think I heard a podcast recently by John Morgan. He's the founder of Morgan, Morgan, right? Of course. And you know, he's always a character and funny to listen to, but, yeah, he talks about being insatiable. Like, how did you grow this? He's like, Well, I'm insatiable. I I want to continue to grow. And for me, it's, it's the exact same thing. It's like, I'm insatiable. We hit a milestone. I want the next milestone. It is the game that I'm playing. I am playing like my hobby is my business. I enjoy it. I look forward to a Monday. It rewards me mentally. I enjoy the people I work with. And that's that's how we're at you know, Inc, 5008 years in a row, we'll definitely be on the ninth year next year, due to our growth this year. And it's that's just, that's just how I treat it. It's just a big game. And, you know, like any game, you play Sim City, whatever, you get a little bit more money, you get a little bit more buildings, right? You do a little bit better, you hire more talent, you expand your capabilities, and you just, if you don't stop, you're going to Michael Hingson  29:22 continue to grow. But it's a game in the mathematical sense, and it's it's a game in the the productive sense of what you're trying to do is, isn't the game just, although you obviously have to have fun in what you do, otherwise you wouldn't enjoy doing it. But it's a game in the mathematical sense of the word, oh, 100% Chris Dreyer  29:44 and so many people don't understand what I'm about to say. But like, every move that you make is a move based upon leverage in some capacity, yeah, and you take, because our time is all limited. You take. I'll give you some examples, like from a from a distribution perspective, hosting my podcast or being on your podcast is going to have more listeners than if I go speak on stage, if I go speak on stage now that that has its own benefits of authority and and different you know, belly to belly relationships from a trust perspective, but from a distribution perspective, I would be better off doing more podcasts than I would speaking on stage, sure. So there's an advantage there, right? And then there's also advantages through pricing arbitrage, and it's if, if I hire labor and talent in in the Midwest, and I pay them above average fees and salaries, and I pay my employees well, but compare that to New York or California. And I think some people, you know, these are things that they don't talk about, but when you start to look at leverage closely, it's everywhere. Capital, economies of scale, if I you know, there's leverage based upon my my buying power in certain areas, and that's what I look for. It's an interesting way to make decisions. Is based upon that leverage component. Michael Hingson  31:20 Do you think that that works in other kinds of arenas, other than just what you do? Chris Dreyer  31:27 Oh, I won 1,000% yes, yeah. It works in you could see it. You know, the closest would be, closest arena would be sports. There's so many, whether it's the salary caps or the talent of one person's labor based, you know, what they can do from a utilization or capacity versus another one's people talk about it on the business side of like, you know, You have one software programmer is worth, potentially 1,000x another one just because of that individual's capabilities. So it's literally everywhere, and it's also dissecting different scenarios into fractional leverage. So I'll take give you a different way of thinking about this. Is like, you take a an SEO specialist, a top tier SEO specialist might be 100 200 grand, right, technician, right? But you you break down their capabilities into the smaller parts. You know someone that just writes, someone that just does the title tags and the website, and someone that just does the links and that, like you can assemble, that individuals that that superstars talent through the FRAC breaking it down from a fractional perspective. It's just a big game of puzzles and how you get there and you look at like what your competitors are doing and how you can, I wouldn't say, exploit in a negative way, but, but what I mean is how you can take advantage in a positive way to to help your business succeed, right? Michael Hingson  33:15 Well, do you so if, if you're playing a game like football, of course, everybody, every team, wants to crush the other team, and it's all about winning and beating the heck out of the other guy. Is that really the way you view it, in terms of the game, as you play it, and do you enjoy being able to just crush the competition? Or is it a different mindset than that? Chris Dreyer  33:42 That's a really good question, because I am an abundance mindset. I don't think everything is a zero sum game. It's, I'll tell you something super nerdy. I was talking to my chief of staff the other day that he's we're big gamers, big nerds. And he, we were talking about Warhammer 40k and the dwarves in that game have a book of grudges. So anybody that that goes against the dwarves, they they're listed in the book of grudges, right? Yeah. And it's like all the dwarves are trying to, you know, right? This wrong. And I kind of look like that. I'm like, treat people respect like, you know, abundance zero, you know, like, abundance mentality. Do the referral thing until it's like, okay, you've done X, Y and Z, and I could give you examples of x, y, z, and it's like, okay, well, you're not my friend. You're not my ally, so now you are a true competitor by all since you know, by all definitions, right? That's how I've treated it. Michael Hingson  34:48 And so it isn't the joy of just beating everybody in sight. No, which is different, which is cool, because certainly. I would, I would also bet, though, that you have people who are competitors, but they're not unfriendly, so you can absolutely, yeah, you can develop Chris Dreyer  35:10 working relationships. Rattle off, and we have great conversations. We're friends, and people are surprised when they see us, and we're friendly, and it's like, no, it's like, we have families, we have life. We want to do good work. We want to and it's so you can absolutely have that too. Yeah. Michael Hingson  35:27 Why did you decide to specifically choose personal injury Chris Dreyer  35:33 for me? And it's this is turning into the math conversation. But really, I looked at our revenue, and it was like over 70% of our revenue. Was from less than 50% of our clientele. And it was a clear directional signal to pursue this area. And that's it was the math like, these are our best clients. They pay the most, they stay the longest we could do the best work. Also the PI space is the Super Bowl. Is the major leagues. In the legal arena, it's, it's very difficult to rank. There's a lot of competition versus, you know, I get a family law attorney. I don't care what market you're in, Los Angeles, it's like a sneeze to get them the number one or two? Yeah, it's and I like that. I like the competition. I like having to work at it and be creative and think about different things to try to obtain that top position. Michael Hingson  36:33 Yeah, well, so I would, I would presume that John Morgan's happy with you. Chris Dreyer  36:40 I, you know, I had Dan Morgan as a keynote for my 2024 conference, his son. And I haven't personally talked to John. I think he's well, he says he's retired, but he's not really retired, yeah, right. The I couldn't work with Morgan and Morgan, I can have a great relationship with them, but I can't work with them because they're in every market, and my I would, they would be my only client, so that's why, but certainly have a great relationship. I've got a text relationship with Dan, but yeah, they, I think they do everything in house. Michael Hingson  37:20 Anyways, you don't want to be the consularity for Morgan and Morgan, in other words, Chris Dreyer  37:25 your only client, right, right? That would put a lot of risk on the old client concentration problem, Michael Hingson  37:33 and it would, but still. So what does it mean for a law firm to dominate Google's organic search. And I guess the other question is, why is that the legal battleground that personal injury lawyers can't really ignore? Chris Dreyer  37:53 There's, there's so much here. Okay, where do I go? That's a lot of take. You take any channel, broadcast television has been the main vehicle for channel for distribution. It's the lowest CPMs cost per 1000. The distribution is very wide, because an individual doesn't know typically, when they're going to be in an accident, right? So you got to have a lot of reach and touch a lot of individuals. There's also radio and billboards. But typically, even if they watch you on television or hear you on the radio or what have you, they still convert. They go to Google to make that conversion that go to the website. Typically, it's not always and and things are changing due to these llms and the native experiences on platform. But even today, it's still the final destination before they contact a firm. So it's really important that you show up at the top of Google to capture all of those opportunities that you've advertised for in other mediums. Michael Hingson  39:09 How do you do that? Chris Dreyer  39:12 Well, so you know, I'll say, I'll try to simplify for the audience. Let's just keep it really, think of like a Venn diagram of, you know, the three circles overlaying and you've got the middle. You have to do all three. The first one is you have to have excellent content. You have to have, you know, if you're an auto accident attorney, you have to have content about auto accidents. You have to have, you know, you have to have content that targets phrases and words that consumers will search for, right? It starts with the content. It has to be thematically and topically relevant. Has to be excellent content. The second component would be related to. Views. You got to get Google reviews to show up on in the LSA, the local services ads location, you have to get reviews to show up in Google Map Pack. You need reviews now on Yelp to show up on and be discovered on these different llms, particularly a chat GPT. And just due to how okay for the SEO nerds listening, let me explain, because typically when you get reviews on Yelp and when you get reviews or recommendations on Facebook, they aggregate that information to other sites, which is then the listicles that form the basis of discovery for these llms. So you got to have a review background. So content reviews and then links. Google, the way that they differentiated, again, way against lo AOL was they use links as a categorization method. So if you're trying to win an election, you want to get as many votes as possible. If you're trying to win the first page of Google, you want to get as many high quality links as possible. High quality being authoritative, relevant, trustworthy, you know, sites that get a lot of traffic, so you need great content, lot of reviews and links. That is the very 8020, high end summer summary of of how to rank in Google search and on the llms, yeah. Michael Hingson  41:24 Well, and how does LinkedIn fit into what you do? Chris Dreyer  41:29 LinkedIn is a bit different. I you know LinkedIn more B to B platform. I think if you're a business attorney or a B to B firm, it's an excellent channel. I use it from a distribution perspective. I get a lot of reach. I get a lot of followers on there. A lot of attorneys congregate on there. And it's a great, you know, channel for recruiting talent, and it's cited frequently if you have some type of reputation perspective that you want to control around your name. LinkedIn typically ranks in one of the top three positions for your name if you have your profile set up properly. So yeah, it's, it's, it's got great distribution from a leverage perspective, and, you know, has other applications as well. Michael Hingson  42:15 If you were starting a law firm today, or you were advising someone who's starting a law firm, how would you deal with and start their marketing efforts? How would you organize marketing for them? Chris Dreyer  42:28 Yeah, in the beginning I would, I would do almost all performance marketing. I would not do. I would do very little with brands, because you need to get on your your cash acceleration cycle is very poor. From a PI perspective. I'm always thinking from an injury law firm perspective, because, you know, if you get an auto accident case by the time they get treatment and go through the whole process, you know, it could be 12 to 18 months before you get paid. So you know, I would think about performance marketing, Facebook ads, Google ads, LSA, SEO, a lot of the ads platforms that are, you know, very performance driven. That would be the majority of my investment. Facebook ads. So in a vacuum, you know, different markets are, there's different channels that are more effective. But in a vacuum, I would say today, right now, Facebook ads would be the best platform, the best channel for that, Michael Hingson  43:29 because so many, because it has such a high volume of viewers, or what Chris Dreyer  43:34 they're well, it's just the cost per lead. The amount that you pay on that platform to reach your target prospect is going to be cheaper than say, you go to Google ads and you're paying $600 a click for a phrase, or, you know, it's just now, there's, again, this is in a vacuum. There's very effective Google Ad strategies you can get, you know, creative with performance, Max campaigns and and different strategies. But I would say just in general, Facebook ads out of the gate would be one that I would start with, and I would start the SEO early, just because it takes time to develop. Michael Hingson  44:14 Yeah, well, that makes sense, and it does take a long time, and I think a lot of people don't necessarily understand how all of that works, but it's still something that they should, should deal with Chris Dreyer  44:28 1,000% and, you know, it's, it's a game of, it's a long game, but it, you know, even SEO can be on a shorter time horizon, if, if You're, like, if you target Car Accident Lawyer in that phrase and that segment, then sure, yeah, 12 to 18 months is, you know, you know, even two years before you start to get some visibility. But you target dog bites, you target, you know, some other case types that aren't as competitive like you can get traction sooner. Michael Hingson  45:00 Hmm, well, and that kind of brings up the question you You talk a lot about, and you wrote a book about niche. Why is it that going into like a smaller niche can yield sort of a greater opportunity, or by narrowing focus, you're creating bigger opportunities? Why is that? So? Chris Dreyer  45:22 What comes top of mind? Some of the biggest, the most important reason is it all centers around this word focus. When you focus in a single area, you become better. Well, because you were better, you can you can at your you can charge more because you're worth it. The other thing is, is when you focus on a single area, you you can create, create repeatable processes, and everything is not bespoke when it comes in. So you can set up your internal productization of a certain area. You it makes training easier by immersion. So there's a lot of benefits, even even the perception aspect of it, right? So when you think of like, who's better, a generalist versus a brain surgeon, you think a brain surgeon is a specialist. And you think, Well, who do you think, just offhand, whose fees would be higher? Well, you think the brain surgeon would would charge higher fees. And so from a perception perspective, and when you're thinking about trust, the that's the other one, right? You would think from a trust perspective, they would be more qualified because they're in this certain area. So, and when we're trying to convert someone in sales, it's always a conversation based upon trust. So those are some of the main advantages, the one heavy, heavy disadvantage. Disadvantage is Tam, total addressable market. It's you focus on personal injury. You're at 50, 60,000 firms. You focus on all law firms. United States, you're at 400,000 law firms. So there's trade offs for you know, there's pros and cons on both sides well Michael Hingson  47:03 and and that makes sense, but there is a lot of merit to the to the whole concept of specializing, and you've proven it with what you do, and you continue to be pretty successful about it. And then that makes a lot of sense, but you also do something else that I think is interesting. You've written a book, niching up, you've got a podcast, you have other things that you do, and, of course, just the company itself, but you put all of that together, and all of that not only has to help your brand, but it makes you more visible in the marketplace overall. Don't you think? Chris Dreyer  47:42 Yeah, it certainly does, and it is our flywheel, right? It's somebody that's on my podcast could be a potential quote in my book, and I have a personal injury lawyer marketing book, right? And there's quotes from the pod. I have now a quarterly magazine that goes out. We could cherry pick a couple episodes, you know, to include in the magazine. We have retreats that are quarterly. They're, they're in person that, because we have a community, they're easier to to fill. We have a yearly event for personal injury law firms called, you know, Pim con. So it's all this, this flywheel that kind of compounds over time due to the community aspect, Michael Hingson  48:25 but people obviously react well to it, because you continue to be successful. Chris Dreyer  48:32 Yeah, and I think the biggest thing for me is I am I am not the the expert. I am bringing on the experts in their field, the people that are eating their own dog food, so to speak, right? They're practicing what they preach. It is, I can orchestrate a great conversation because I know the space and can ask very specific questions based upon my knowledge. But I'm bringing on, you know, Dan Morgan's on the pod. I've had, let's see Morris Bart. You know, I've had frank Azar in Colorado. I've had the biggest of the big pi attorneys on sharing what works for them, which, which is very valuable, because it's not, you know, some, you know, a consultant or me or whoever, speaking about like, Oh, this is how you can grow a law firm. It's no this is the owner of a law firm explaining how he or she is growing their law firm right, Michael Hingson  49:31 and providing that advice for other people, which also helps you gain trust, which is pretty cool. What's the best way for an attorney who wants to stand out to truly build authority in the market? Chris Dreyer  49:50 Well, if you're if you're b Look, okay, so there's a couple types of firms. If you're a trial attorney and you want to get peer referrals, I would say. See, I would say start a podcast would be one of the best ways, you know, interview your peer, interview other attorneys around the country, talk shop, you know, speak at C les. You know, do the those types of aspects it, you know, a podcast. I'm not saying it's not good for B to C, but it's, it has to be a different type of podcast. So I think, I think B to B, if you're a litigation attorney, a podcast would be great if it's B to C. That's, that's tricky. I think I think probably social media in some capacity, but really it's just sharing your knowledge on a platform and being consistent. Michael Hingson  50:51 Yeah, consistency counts for a lot, and it is something you can you can show is being relevant in almost any kind of business. I mean, look at McDonald's. One thing you can generally tell about McDonald's is that their quarter pounder is going to taste the same everywhere, and it's going to be the same and, and, and companies and people can learn a lot by seeing a company that truly develops that level of trust, 51:24 yeah, couldn't agree more. Michael Hingson  51:26 And that's pretty important to do, to be able to get someone who is going to earn that trust by vigorously working to earn that trust. And so there's something to be said for that, needless to say, so you've built a very large company. What would you say are some of the pivotal moments that sort of helped shape your trajectory? I know you've talked about some things, but what, what kind of really, are the things that stand out that really helped you create all of that? Chris Dreyer  52:00 I think in the beginning, I did a lot of free work, and had to prove my work, prove my abilities. I think so many people just want to charge a lot out of the gate. And I think there's when you do things for people, they're more willing to reciprocate. And it from an application perspective, it makes you better. So I did a lot of free work early, a ton of free work. I took a lot of jobs or contracts that maybe not, maybe for certain, that I wouldn't take today, that were just not perfect, but like they were my opportunities that I didn't, you know, let them pass by. I think hiring the right people, having super high standards is incredibly important, people that share your values. In the beginning, I used to, every time I heard a speech or taught speech speaker talk about culture values, I used to kind of roll my eyes and say I just didn't get to get to work, right? But now I know it's more important than ever that they share my values, right? Because they're important to me, and that's how you move forward. And I think the other one, if I had to say, the bigger I get, the more important good data, is to make decisions like, if I just don't have good data, it's very difficult. I'm just guessing and and the better the data, the better decisions well. Michael Hingson  53:32 So the the other thing that comes to mind when you talked about doing a lot of free work and jobs that you wouldn't necessarily take today, I don't know how much it really entered into your mindset, but think of all the knowledge you gathered by doing that that you might not have ever gotten. Yeah. Chris Dreyer  53:49 I mean, that's true, and a lot of other people wouldn't have done those jobs, so that's kind of some unique perspectives. Michael Hingson  53:56 Yeah, I when I hired sales people, one of the first things I always told them was, you're coming into this be a student for at least the first year. Don't hesitate to ask questions of your customers, because they're not if you gain their trust at all. They're not in it to see you fail. They want you to succeed, but they want to be able to trust you. And so there's a lot to be said for being a student, asking questions and learning from that. I agree. I agree, which makes a lot of sense. What's the biggest misconception that lawyers typically have about marketing? Chris Dreyer  54:33 They underestimate how many dollars and what it takes for someone to actually be memorable or build a brand. I talked to, I heard Alex hermosi talking recently about, you know, no one really knew who Jennifer Lawrence was before the mockingbird movie, and they spent $50 million on advertising for that movie. And then, oh, suddenly, everyone knows who she is. But it took $50 million To do so. I think a lot of times people think they oversaturate a channel when they haven't even scratched the possibilities or the capabilities of a particular channel. Michael Hingson  55:10 How do you help lawyers break through that misconception? I agree with what you're saying. I hear it a lot, in so many ways, but how do you break through that and get them to understand the value. Chris Dreyer  55:22 It's a dance, yeah, you know, I try to get them to look at the blended cost to acquire a case, as opposed to, you know, the CAC to LTV ratio, versus trying to pinpoint each individual channel and but it is try to try to solve with data and proof over, you know, guesses, but or promises, but it is always a song and dance. Michael Hingson  55:52 The data and proof is out there. If people can learn to look for it, it's, it's, the reality is, mostly it's not a guess, but you have to know where to look or learn how to find the data to be able to get the answers that you need to demonstrate that marketing is just as valuable as anything else. I mean, there's so many strong lessons about marketing. We talked about Morgan and Morgan, but think about it, he's out there doing TV commercials all the time, and I'm sure that that's helping his company. He and Ultima continuing to to grow, and now they got the boys all in it. And the reality is they've demonstrated that they understand something about what marketing is all about. I remember back a long time ago when it was taboo for lawyers to even advertise. And then a couple of companies out here started to do it. And finally, people realized there's a lot of value in marketing. Chris Dreyer  56:50 Absolutely. And Michael, I should have said this in advance. I've got a I got a hard stop, I got a I got a hat, I got a client call here in two minutes. Michael Hingson  56:59 Well, then let me just ask, is there anything else that you want to add? Or how can people reach out to you if they'd like to do that? Chris Dreyer  57:06 Well, first of all, I really enjoyed our conversation, so thank you for having me. Yeah, you know, for anybody that has a question or wants to connect with me, the best way to get in touch with me is by email. I'm an inbox zero guy. It's Chris, C, H, R, i [email protected] I'm most active on LinkedIn. You'll just do a search for Chris Dreyer, and you'll find me cool. Michael Hingson  57:29 Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for tuning in today, wherever you are, I'd love to hear from you. Love your thoughts on the podcast. Give us an email at Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, also, you can listen to any of our podcasts. They're all available. And you can find us at Michael hingson.com/podcast and you can see and hear all the episodes that you want from there. Please give us a five star review and great rating wherever you're listening and watching us, we value it a lot. And if you know anyone who you think might be able to be a good guest, love to hear from you. Chris, you as well. If you know anybody else who you think ought to be a guest, I'd love to definitely get your help to bring them on, because we're looking for all the people who want to come on and show that we're all more unstoppable than we think. But again, I want to just thank you for being here today. Chris Dreyer  58:20 Thank you, Michael. I really enjoyed it. Michael Hingson  58:26 Thank you for being here with me on unstoppable mindset. I hope today's conversation left you with a fresh perspective, a new insight, or at least something worth thinking about if you're ready to go deeper into the ideas that shape how we see ourselves and others. I have a free gift for you. Head over to Michael hingson.com and download my free ebook, blinded by fear. It explores the invisible beliefs that hold us back and shows you how to reframe them so you can move forward with clarity and confidence. Be sure to subscribe to our podcast, leave a review and share this show with someone who can use a reminder that growth starts with mindset. When people think differently, we all move forward together. Thanks again for listening, keep learning, keep questioning and keep choosing to live with an unstoppable mindset you.

What does it take to tell the truth from the front lines of war? In this episode, I sit down with Amy Forsythe, a military journalist and combat photographer who spent over three decades documenting real stories from Iraq, Afghanistan, and beyond. You will hear how storytelling, discipline, and trust shaped her career in the Marine Corps and Navy, and how technology is changing journalism today. Amy shares what it means to serve, how travel reshapes your view of the world, and why accuracy in storytelling matters more than ever. I believe you will find this conversation both powerful and eye-opening as it shows what it really means to live with purpose and courage. Highlights: 00:01:23 How her early life and family history shaped her decision to serve 00:03:43 Why she felt called to join the Marine Corps and pursue purpose 00:07:05 What it was like building a career in military journalism across media formats 00:13:49 How she documented real combat while embedded with troops in war zones 00:25:49 How global travel changed her perspective on people and the world 00:42:50 How she is continuing storytelling after retirement through speaking and writing Bottom of Form About the Guest: Amy Forsythe is an award-winning military journalist who served five combat tours supporting combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan and has been on assignment around the world telling the military story. Amy was born and raised in Santa Rosa, California, and started her career as a U.S. Marine Combat Correspondent and currently serves as Public Affairs Officer in the U.S. Navy Reserve assigned to Special Operations Command.  She has been on assignment in other places like Romania, Poland, Niger, Guam, Malaysia, Panama, Palau, Singapore and Sri Lanka. She was first stationed at Camp Pendleton, California, in 1995 and still has strong ties to the base and surrounding communities. Amy's involved in supporting various veteran service organizations in San Diego County and around the country.  Her photos and video taken while on assignment around the world have been featured in numerous international and national media outlets through the years and continue to be used for historical purposes. She recently published her first book titled 'Heroes Live Here: A Tribute to Camp Pendleton Marines Since 9/11' which features memorials and tributes to those who served in Operations Enduring Freedom and Iraqi Freedom over the past 20 years.  Ways to connect with Amy**:** LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amyforsythe Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/amy.forsythe.760 Medium: https://amyforsythe.medium.com/ Instagram: http://instagram.com/amyforsythe760 Threads: https://www.threads.net/@amyforsythe760 YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/AmyForsythe Twitter: https://twitter.com/amy_forsythe Press Release: https://bit.ly/3wEb3FL Signed hardcover purchase: https://bit.ly/3rlKiDF Amazon: https://amzn.to/3ORmocr About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What if the creativity you’re searching for has been with you all along, just waiting for you to listen? I had the pleasure of speaking with Holly Gutwillinger, an author whose journey began in the quiet forests of northern Canada and grew through a life shaped by storytelling, solitude, and reflection. From her early days creating stories on her own to building a career while quietly nurturing her creative side, Holly shares how those moments helped form the foundation of who she is today. As you listen, you’ll hear how Holly rediscovered her voice through writing, how her dogs unexpectedly became her greatest teachers, and why acceptance became a turning point in both her life and her work. We also explore the role of discipline, the challenge of staying present in a world full of distractions, and the importance of listening to your inner voice. I believe you will find this conversation both encouraging and practical, especially if you’ve ever questioned your own creativity or wondered if it’s too late to begin again. Highlights: 00:10 Discover how early life and solitude shaped a lifelong creative mindset03:20 Learn why spending time alone can unlock creativity and storytelling14:27 Understand how to move past frustration and return to creativity20:16 Learn how walking, driving, and quiet time spark new ideas34:44 Discover what an unstoppable mindset really means in daily life53:57 Understand how acceptance can transform relationships and creativity Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: Holly B. Gutwillinger is an award-winning author, podcaster, and MFA student in fiction at the University of King’s College, whose work is defined by emotional honesty, curiosity, and a profound love for cats and dogs—those remarkable creatures who shape our lives in unexpected and transformative ways. She calls a small northern Ontario town home, though her journey has taken her through remote parts of northern Canada, experiences that have expanded her worldview, strengthened her resilience, and instilled a deep appreciation for the wide variety of foods, traditions, and cultures that define the Canadian human experience. A self-made creative, Holly has built her literary and podcasting path from the ground up, navigating the challenges of the writing life with an unwavering commitment to telling the stories that matter most. Her determination has led to recognition, including the prestigious On Creative Writing Award, which she received in late 2025. Yet for Holly, accolades are never the endpoint; they are encouragement to keep writing, creating, and exploring new avenues of expression. She has no plans to stop, seeing every project—whether a novel, podcast episode, or painted canvas—as part of a larger, ongoing journey of curiosity and connection to others and to herself. Although she was not always a writer, Holly’s creative process began at a very young age. She recalls quiet moments of tactile creation with anything she could gather around the house—storytelling to anyone who would listen or creating picture books in school. Those early experiences laid the foundation for a lifelong passion to craft stories that resonate deeply and honestly. Holly’s debut novel, North of Broken & Furever Home, launched February 14, 2026, is an intimate exploration of a woman’s evolving relationship with her rescue dogs. The novel delves into themes of grief, healing, second chances, and the quiet but transformative power of animal companionship. At its core, it asks a question familiar to anyone who has loved a pet: who truly rescues whom? Holly’s characters are imbued with emotional complexity, drawing from her own experience as a mother, a pet owner, and a lifelong observer of human relationships. The story invites readers to witness the beauty and struggle inherent in loving fully, openly, and sometimes imperfectly. As the project neared completion, Holly realized this was no longer just a rescue story, but a narrative of acceptance between her and her dogs, Cash and Sully—their relationship evolving into a shared stillness and quiet companionship that brings her peace. Family is central to Holly’s life and work. As the proud mother of two adult sons, she offers authentic insight into the joys, challenges, and heartbreaks of parenting as children step into independence. This maternal devotion extends naturally to the animals in her care, reflecting her belief that the relationships we cultivate, whether with children, partners, friends, or pets, serve as mirrors that reveal who we are, who we are becoming, and the values we hold most dear. Her fiction and nonfiction alike are informed by this awareness, portraying relationships with honesty, vulnerability, and a deep sense of empathy. Currently pursuing her MFA in fiction, Holly is committed to honing her craft and exploring the intersections of character, voice, and emotional truth. Her academic training complements her innate storytelling abilities, allowing her to balance literary sophistication with accessibility and relatability. Whether in the quiet drafting of a manuscript or the dynamic dialogue of a podcast, Holly approaches her work with curiosity, rigor, and the understanding that art is a vehicle for both connection and transformation. She once stepped away from the voice she had worked so hard to develop, writing instead for what she thought the audience wanted, but the words ceased to flow. Returning to the style that made her heart sing reignited her literary tap, and all was well again. She encourages her peers to embrace authenticity and to hone their true voices, even when the path is uncertain. Holly also hosts a podcast with her son, Rogan, exploring how animals influence and inspire the creative lives of people from all walks of life. Through conversations with writers, artists, entrepreneurs, and creators, she examines how pets provide comfort, motivation, and even discipline for those pursuing ambitious dreams. The show highlights the often-overlooked ways animals shape human creativity, offering insights that are both practical and profoundly moving. For Holly, the podcast holds an additional personal dimension: it provides precious time with one of her adult sons who lives hours away, creating shared experiences that strengthen their bond while exploring themes of love, companionship, and creativity. The podcast’s casual conversational format often leads into deeper, more meaningful discussions, with questions that invite reflection on how her animals influence her creative process and who she is as their human companion. Artistic expression extends beyond writing in Holly’s life. She loves to dabble in drawing, painting, and yarn art, finding visual art a complementary form of storytelling and self-exploration. Whether sketching, experimenting with color, or simply observing the world through a brush or pencil, Holly approaches art with the same curiosity, courage, and playfulness she brings to her writing. This creative versatility allows her to explore emotion and narrative from multiple perspectives, enriching both her fiction and her podcast work. Living in remote parts of northern Canada has profoundly shaped Holly. These experiences expanded her cultural awareness, exposed her to unique foods, traditions, and practices, and deepened her empathy for diverse human experiences. The solitude and vast landscapes of the North provided not only inspiration but also perspective, fostering resilience and the ability to observe life with nuance and care. These insights permeate her storytelling, helping her craft characters and narratives that feel authentic, layered, and universally resonant, intimately connected to the great white north. Community and mentorship are integral to Holly’s philosophy. She serves on the board of her local writers’ guild and volunteers in literary organizations supporting emerging voices, fostering collaboration, and advocating for equity in publishing. She believes in creating opportunities for others while continuing to carve her own path, reflecting her self-made approach to the creative life. Holly’s involvement in these groups underscores her commitment not only to her own work but to the broader literary ecosystem, cultivating spaces where writers can thrive, share, and grow together. At the heart of Holly’s work across novels, podcasts, and visual art, is an enduring exploration of love, connection, and transformation. Her stories reveal that the relationships we cultivate, whether with humans or animals, shape the core of who we are. They highlight resilience in the face of challenge, the quiet courage required to open one’s heart, and the unexpected ways vulnerability can lead to growth. Whether speaking about the craft of writing, the role of pets in creative lives, the joys and trials of parenthood, or the ongoing journey of self-made artistry, Holly brings warmth, insight, and grounded authenticity to every conversation. Despite recognition, awards, and a growing readership, Holly remains humble and curious, always ready to explore new creative avenues. She views life as an ongoing narrative, one in which personal, fictional, or podcast-shared stories serve as threads connecting individuals, communities, and generations. Her work reflects a conviction that storytelling is not just an art form but a form of stewardship—preserving experiences, fostering empathy, and inspiring others to embrace the creative life with courage and curiosity. Holly B. Gutwillinger’s journey is one of heart, persistence, and a lifelong commitment to creation. She has built her career on her own initiative, cultivating her voice with passion and care. From the rugged landscapes of northern Canada to the intimate spaces shared with her family and rescue dogs, Holly’s life and work embody the transformative power of love, creativity, and resilience. With every novel, podcast episode, and painting, she continues to explore the questions that have always driven her: How do we connect? How do we grow? And, ultimately, how do the creatures and people we love most help us become the truest versions of ourselves? Holly’s debut novel, North of Broken & Furever Home, and her podcast offer readers and listeners a window into this world—a place where relationships, art, and compassion intersect, and where every story has the power to illuminate, heal, and inspire. As a self-made creator who refuses to stop exploring, Holly remains committed to creating work that matters, sharing space with others who care deeply about the human and animal experience, and continuing to craft stories that touch hearts, spark conversations, and celebrate the quiet courage of living fully, lovingly, and creatively. Looking ahead, Holly aspires to create a mentorship program for emerging writers who feel unsure where to start or struggle to balance a writing life with a busy schedule. Although the program is not yet in place, she hopes to establish a supportive platform where individuals feel comfortable unleashing their words on the page and finding their authentic voices in a welcoming community. Ways to connect with Holly**:** Instagram @rambling_from_the_little_shed Website: www.ramblingsfromthelittleshed.com Substack: Https://https://substack.com/@hollybgutwillinger About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:20 Hi everyone, and welcome to you wherever you happen to be. We're really glad that you're joining us here on unstoppable mindset. I'm your host, Mike hingson, or you can call me Michael. I don't really care which, but we're glad that you're with us wherever you are, and we appreciate you tuning in today. Tuning in. That's an old word from radio and some television, but more more radio than television, but I actually heard someone today use the term don't touch that dial. So there you go. But radio is radio and podcasts are podcast anyway. We're glad you're here now that I got that out of the system, but I'm glad that we have a chance to be here with you today, and today, our guest is Holly Gutwillinger. Gutwillinger, I want to make sure I do it right. And Holly is an author, and she's got a lot of other endeavors that she's done over the years, and is going to continue to do. So I'm really looking forward to hearing all that she's got to say, and we're going to get right to it. So Holly, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Holly Gutwillinger  02:27 Thank you so much, Michael, I I like that saying tuning in. And in fact, I went a bookstore just the other day, and she had what looked to be an old transistor radio, but I know it was probably just, you know, a newer speaker that was made to look like a radio. Michael Hingson  02:45 I still have an old transistor radio. I haven't used it a lot lately, but I have it, and it has a dial you can turn to for volume, and another dial for tuning in different stations, and a button to go from am to FM. So there you are. Holly Gutwillinger  03:05 Yeah, yeah. I have many of them, like I had, I should say, not have, but yes, very familiar with them. Michael Hingson  03:13 I I collect as a hobby, old radio shows, and so I do a lot of things with radio, and it's a lot of fun to to do things. I collect a lot of different kinds of shows. And there's a show I think it's, it's blondy Blondie and Dagwood, the comic strip. And there's always starts, ah, don't touch that dial. So there you are. But, but you know, old radio is fun and it's interesting to listen to history from the perspective of what happened on a lot of those radio shows, especially in the time of war like World War Two, just how radio helped pull so many people together, it was pretty fascinating. I agree. I wish we had more of that today, but that's the way it is. Well, why don't we start, as I love to do, tell us kind of about the early Holly, growing up and all that stuff. And I know that you live in Canada, you're in what, northern Toronto, Northern Ontario, rather not Toronto. Northern Toronto isn't very far. You were, you weren't very far. But anyway, Northern Ontario. Well anyway, so tell us about kind of the early Holly. Holly Gutwillinger  04:27 Goodness. Early Holly Michael Hingson  04:28 just long time ago Holly Gutwillinger  04:30 in a galaxy, long time ago Holly. Early Holly loved to be she's just a younger version of who she is now. And she loved to do so many things. I remember going, you know, collecting wood with my father in the forest. That's what we did every weekend to collect for the winter, just spending so much time outside, creating. And what I realized in the last week or so, I had a one of those aha moments. Somebody asked me if I always. Love to write. And I said, Well, not that I can recall, but now that I think about it, I was always a storyteller, and some of those memories are coming back to me, where I used to create screenplays, almost in the basement, I'd have restaurants and school classrooms, but I did spend a lot of my time outside with my father, and he built old cars, so street rods and we would hunting for old car skeletons in the in the back bush. So that's a lot of what younger Holly's life was like. And then, of course, school and high school, and I was always creative. But yeah, why do you think Michael Hingson  05:43 that is that you were always creative and always writing and doing other kind of innovative things like that? Do you have any notion as to why were you encouraged to do that? Holly Gutwillinger  05:53 Or I was not, but I think I love that question, Mike, because now you're making me think again and I'm going in and mining for those old memories. But I think it's because my siblings were much older than me, and so by the time I was seven, they were gone, and then it was just me. So, you know, I live in rural northern Ontario, there weren't a lot of kids in the neighborhood, so a lot of time, a lot of my time was spent alone, and I think that I just needed to entertain myself, and I did. So. I think that's one of the reasons why I was so I became so creative because I just kind of kept myself company, Michael Hingson  06:33 kept yourself company, and you kept busy. Well, yes, what did your parents think of all of that? Holly Gutwillinger  06:39 Hmm, I don't know. I come from a time when, you know, kids did. Kids were sort of to the side and quiet. My parents were my father was like in the garage building his cars. And if he wasn't building cars, he was mining. My mother was working. And, you know, they had already had two children. And I was a unexpected surprise, I suppose. So I don't really know what they thought about that, but my mother's still here, so maybe I'll have to ask her that question. Michael Hingson  07:06 I'll have to ask her, what kind of work did she do? She Holly Gutwillinger  07:09 worked at like a real retail store here called Canadian Tire, which is, I don't know if you've ever heard of it, but your equivalent would be kind of like a Home Depot, but more centered towards cars. Cars, yeah, yeah, which my father loved, because he got parts at a discount. Michael Hingson  07:26 I was just going to ask, did, did that relationship and that employment benefit his his car fix? Oh, yeah, definitely. And what's happened to all the cars over the years? Holly Gutwillinger  07:39 Well, my father built so many cars. I remember every week, a new car rolling into the driveway, whether he was fixing it or selling one and buying another building for another person. Over the year, over the span of about 13 years, he built a 1934 Ford three window coupe from the frame up, and my sister has it now in her barn. And he also gifted her like a 52 Ford pickup. So she has both of those because she has the space and she has a husband who's able to keep them running, which is important, yeah. So yeah, they had the cars came and they went. Well, vehicles too much around here? Michael Hingson  08:22 Yeah, well, you know, lot of lot of fascination with cars and hot rods and all that sort of stuff. So I understand the the DMV, the Department of Motor Vehicles here, won't let me get a driver's license. And as I point out to people, given the way most people drive around here. I don't see why I shouldn't be able to get a license just as well as anybody else, because I don't think that they're watching what they're doing anyway. Holly Gutwillinger  08:47 So I agreed, I think Michael Hingson  08:49 so you went through high school. Did you go to college or university? Holly Gutwillinger  08:53 I did. I went to college. I you know, I was that kid that was supposed to go to university, but I just didn't have the money, nor did my parents. And so I did go to college, but I got a job right out of while I was in college, actually got a full time job, and they allowed me to finish my schoolwork at home, and I started working at 19, and never stopped. But I did go back to school in 2018 and got my degree and kept pushing. So there I was with my two my own two sons, in university, and I was in university, so it was an expensive time. Michael Hingson  09:31 So what is the difference between college and university in Canada? Holly Gutwillinger  09:35 So college, you will receive a diploma, and it's more hands on, whereas University is very theoretical and academic, so not as much hands on, and so you'll get like a Bachelor of Arts, three or four year Bachelor of Arts and lots of essays, but college, you do a lot of hands on, so skills more. Michael Hingson  10:00 Skills and technical things. Yes, yes. So what was this job that you got at the age of 19? Holly Gutwillinger  10:07 It was for a chartered accountant's office, and I was the receptionist, and that's right, when computers were coming in. So it was very interesting time. And I worked there for 10 years, and they became my family. But then we moved north, my husband and I, so I had to leave that work family and move on to a very remote town in northern Manitoba, and I just took on jobs. I just sort of incrementally got different jobs that were just a little bit, you know, a step up in higher pay, in a sense, and just kept building on those skills. Michael Hingson  10:42 And while that was going on, were you showing creativity in any way, or did you kind of have to put that by the wayside for a while? Holly Gutwillinger  10:50 I was always dabbling at home. So I would work during the day, do my job, and then when I returned home, I was always creating something. It could be knitting, scrapbooking, letter writing, you name it, I've tried it, and it was just how I spent my time. And yeah, there wasn't much to do up north, so it was important for me to have that outlet somehow, well, Michael Hingson  11:18 but I guess, I guess you would say definitely, though, that it kept you busy, which is kind of one of the things that you wanted to do, Holly Gutwillinger  11:27 absolutely and it also is a conversation starter. Doesn't matter if it's a small town or a big town, but if you can find that link with someone, it's a it's a way to make connections with people, friendships. And I found that it came in handy. You know that the smaller towns tend to have a lot of groups or meetings of sorts, where creatives come together, whether they're knitting circles or crafting circles. And so that was an important part of my life, because it was very difficult for me to be away from my family. Michael Hingson  12:03 So as you think about Tell me, tell me a story of one time that being involved in that and going that that route really helped you as you move forward. Holly Gutwillinger  12:14 That's a good question. So I can remember a time when I lived in Yellowknife, which is in the Northwest Territory, so further up north. We moved up there after northern Manitoba, and it was an even smaller place, but I had found a group of women who made cards, like greeting cards, and so every month. And I can't quite remember how I got myself into this group, but I'm, I suppose I'm known for, you know, popping in and saying, Hi, I'm Holly, you know, nice to meet you and try to get myself involved. But every month, we go to a different person's house, and we'd make these greeting cards, and then we'd share them. So you'd make 12 of the same kind, and then you'd share them with the other people that were there, and we'd have snacks, and it just created community. And that was very important in a northern, isolated northern community such as that one. Michael Hingson  13:12 So the sense of community was in and I gather, near, needless to say, is still very relevant to you. Did? Did you keep in touch fairly well with your family, with your parents and all that, Holly Gutwillinger  13:24 or as much as you could, because that was at the dawn of Facebook time. So it was old school rotary phones that we Yeah, landlines and we would call every week, but really that was one of the only ways that we communicated. And so it was that was probably the most difficult part, was being away from my family and having my my two children, be away from their grandparents. Michael Hingson  13:52 Yeah. What? What was the reason that you moved well up to northern Manitoba and then up into Yellowknife Holly Gutwillinger  14:01 because I had a husband who was in mining, and so we made the decision it was a great opportunity to for a young family to find work there. Well, not fine. The job came to him. And so we moved there and made a life for ourselves there. And then we saw an opportunity return back to Northern Ontario, which is where we're from, so that we could help our parents, as they were going through health issues, have our kids have the opportunity to know their grandparents as well. Michael Hingson  14:33 Well, there's a lot of merit to that, needless to say. But through all of that, were you always a writer? Did you always write things? And if you have, you kept a lot of your early writings? If that were the case, Holly Gutwillinger  14:48 I wasn't a writer of stories as much as I was of notes and love letters. I used to love having a pen pal, and I don't. Have journals or anything like that, but what I have found are all the cards that I used to make for my parents, and I'm grateful that they did keep that because it I don't know. It takes me down memory lane, and I can see where it all began. I have memories of sitting behind the wing back chair in the living room and creating out of paper towel rolls or whatever supplies I could find around the house, but those cards really mean a lot to me, because it it's still who I am, and I do enjoy writing someone a letter or a note. Michael Hingson  15:37 Yeah. Yeah. Do you find that sometimes the creativity just seems to shut down, or it isn't coming through? And if, if that's the case, how do you how do you deal with that? Holly Gutwillinger  15:52 I creativity is not something that has shut down for me. Now, that being said, I have shut it down when I am not successful at something. You know, when you get frustrated and you're trying to learn something but you can't quite get it, I'll be the one to break off with the with the hobby at hand. So let's take crochet, for example. If I just couldn't get that one stitch, I would get frustrated, and I'd put it to the side, and I move on to something else. But I feel like I've evolved when it comes to that aspect of my life. I persevere a lot more now, and I'm not filling my life with as many creative mediums. I'm really trying to focus on the ones that give me meaning, such as writing. Michael Hingson  16:46 Well, when when you put something aside just because it wasn't working out, did you ever find that you went back to it and and had success, or did you not? Holly Gutwillinger  16:56 I did, yes, yeah, after some time now, that was if I didn't throw everything out in the process. Because I've been known to do that. When you get frustrated, you're just like, oh, you know, you shake your head, and you give everything away. Because, like, I'm never doing that again. And so I have done that on a few occasions, but not in the last few years. And yes, I have returned to knitting, for example, color work was something that I struggled with, but I went back to it, and I think that sometimes it's about being in the right moment for whatever that may be. Maybe it's a book you're reading, maybe it's a movie you're watching, maybe it's something you're working on. And now I have no issues with color work, so I just I found the rhythm that I needed to get through it. Michael Hingson  17:46 How do you find that technology, as we advance with that is affecting your creativity and then the different things that you do? Good? Holly Gutwillinger  17:57 Question, as far as hobbies go, I think that digital is helpful because I'm able to access more living here in a place where I may not be able to access supplies or patterns, but I don't find that. You know, like the the computer world has affected much else in my life. I am able to navigate it. That being said, I think that keeping up with social media is a time stealer, and I know we all feel we need to do it. I know I put pressure on myself for that, and I'm not even really sure how much that advances anything. I suppose I need to do my own study on my my own social media. But as far as it goes, that I think is it's a time thief, Michael Hingson  18:54 yeah, well, I think there's, there's merit to that. I think it is a time stealer in a lot of ways, and I think that it is leading us down some paths that probably are really better left alone. We were too sensitive to social media. We're just too heavily involved with it, and it's taking us away from a lot of personal and interpersonal reactions and and involvement with other people, which is too bad I, you know, I've, I've heard about families driving somewhere and the kids are in the backseat of the car texting back and forth. Yes, you know, in the car they don't talk to each other. And I heard one of the reasons. I asked somebody once, why is that? And they said, well, they also don't want their parents to hear what they're talking about, but, but still, it's a challenge. We're being Holly Gutwillinger  19:47 in a restaurant and seeing a family at a table, but the kids are on the phones or on a on an iPad watching a movie. And I'm thinking, wouldn't you be taking these moments to talk to one another? The phones were never. Loud at my dinner table. That's the one thing, and it sticks to this day. Michael Hingson  20:04 Yeah, well, and, and it's not just the kids. Oftentimes, parents are doing it, that's right. I personally think that, like a smartphone is a is a good tool, but I don't focus on it all day. I don't do that and won't because I don't think it's necessary, and it's not adding a lot of value to my life to do that. If there's a game that I want to play, I can play that game, but I don't spend all day on the phone and oftentimes like especially when I'm doing a podcast like this, it all gets silenced so that we don't get interrupted, because the last thing I want is for something to interrupt what we're doing. But it's not just doing a podcast. I think it's important that we all take more time to be involved with others around us directly. Holly Gutwillinger  20:59 Yes, I agree wholeheartedly with that. Michael Hingson  21:02 Michael, that's my opinion. But I, you know, I think that everybody has an opinion that's okay, and some, and there will be people who disagree with that, and that's, that's fine. We'll see how it all works. But so, but you, you do a lot of ideas and create and so on. How do you channel your ideas? Holly Gutwillinger  21:26 Well, I channel them through walking and through running and driving is one of the greatest funnels that I have. So yesterday, I was on a seven hour drive, and I absolutely love it, because I listen to podcasts, audio books, and then I just drive in silence. If I if an idea is coming through, I'll just drive in silence and let the thoughts swirl, and I get to sort of sit with them. And sometimes I've even pulled over and and made notes or recorded my thoughts so that I don't lose them. But, you know, channeling them through things that I read, conversations, podcasts, I find, are a huge gift when it comes to creating because it could be a conversation someone is having and they'll just say that one word that triggers something in your thoughts that you know, unleashes something new for you. Michael Hingson  22:29 Yeah, I think there's a lot of value in podcasts, and there's so many of them. It has definitely been a very successful thing. It's one of the things that Apple has done that has changed a lot of of what we are and what we do in the world, and if it's a way for people to be able to to get out and interact, that's great. It still is. Though you're you're typically listening to someone, unless you get involved in the podcast or doing your own podcast. Holly Gutwillinger  23:02 Yeah, I agree. I I've always enjoyed podcasts, although I haven't been listening to them right from the beginning, but for several years, for sure, and I love that there's such a variety now there's something for everyone, whether it's a story you want to listen to, or meditation or having a great conversation. I've even learned so much about the craft of writing through podcasts. Michael Hingson  23:27 Have you ever thought of doing your own podcast? Holly Gutwillinger  23:30 I have, and I, I, I've recently started one with my son. We started back in November, and it's, it's going very well, and we're having a lot of fun. Michael Hingson  23:41 Tell us more about that. Yeah, I'd love to Holly Gutwillinger  23:43 it's called ramblings from the little shed because I'm sitting here in the back of my garage and but I call it my shed, and it's, it's a room on its own, and it's surrounded in cedar planks or pine, pine, my apologies, pine planks, and I have the wood stove beside me, so that's why I we ramble from the little shed, and my son is in Toronto. So we connect over video and we in we have conversations with creative individuals about their pets and their animals. So first, we talk about how they believe their animals or their pets influence their creativity. And then we shift over to who they are as creatives, but it's just conversational. And then my son and I, once the guest has left, we ramble on about things during the week and our favorite things, and yeah, we wear flannel shirts and drink warm coffee. Michael Hingson  24:42 There you go. What What prompted you to focus on having the discussions around animals? Holly Gutwillinger  24:51 Definitely, because my book is solely focused on my two dogs, and I thought if my dog. Can have so much influence on my creativity, and I thank him for the gift of giving me the story, then I believe that other people do as well. There's been such a shift in the way that people value their pets or treat them, and I feel that there's more, right? And people love talking about their pets. So I thought, Hmm, wait a minute. There's so many creative people out there. Surely they want to talk about their pets. And we have met chefs, food photographers, tarot readers, fortune tellers, authors, people of all walks of life. We're having a grand time, Michael Hingson  25:44 dogs, mainly, or other animals as well, Holly Gutwillinger  25:47 other animals as well. In fact, I just met a woman, a mother and daughter, who have an alpaca farm, and they have 36 alpacas in their backyard that they've, you know, they raise and they they they shear them. They draft, not draft. What's it called? They card, the the wool. And then they, I'm sorry, I'm trying to think of all the terms here that go with, with what they do. And then they draft it, and then they spin it, and then they knit their garments out of the alpaca wool al packable, and they have a beautiful storefront. And I'm thinking, My goodness, that is so inspiring. First of all, to start something of that caliber. And so their animals have a direct influence on their creativity. I mean, it goes hand in hand for them. So not just dogs and cats. Can be any kind of animal. Michael Hingson  26:43 Well, I'm I'm limited here. We just have a dog. Well, not just but I have my guide dog, Alamo and a cat. Stitch, and they keep me company since my wife has passed, so they keep me company and and smash up against, well, stitch the cat smashes up against me when we sleep at night, and she likes that, so I make sure that I don't roll over on her or anything like that, and Alamo sleeps on his own bed right by ours. So it works out well, and everybody seems to be pretty happy here. So that's a good thing. It's fascinating. And it's amazing how many people have done so many things with with regard to animals. Years ago, my wife discovered a website called craft sea. Have you ever heard of it? Holly Gutwillinger  27:32 Yes, I have. Yeah. I joined it a few times, yeah. Michael Hingson  27:35 And when she was looking at Craft c1, time, she found a company in Ohio called litter one, and litter one makes cat litter, but they make it out of pine kernels, and they put them in a disposable box. So you you put the box out, the cat uses it. And for, for me, specifically, we put a box out, and it'll last a week, and then we just throw it away and put up another box. And I find that I'm spending about the same amount with litter one that I would if I were just buying cat litter any other way. But it's it's clearly a lot more well, biodegradable, degradable, if you will. And and stitch seems to like it, so that's good. Holly Gutwillinger  28:20 I wonder if that's something I can get up here. Michael Hingson  28:24 I would check the website is called litter one. I would bet you can. Holly Gutwillinger  28:29 I definitely am going to check into that. Michael Hingson  28:32 Yeah, and like I said, stitch likes it from the first time we got it. And, you know, for a while, every week, of course, you got the scent of essentially fresh pine kernels, which also helps but, but I've got to really talk with them. I love to learn sometime the history of how that came to be, because it's just fascinating that they came up with this creative thing. And I wonder why and how that occurred. But there's got to be a story there. Holly Gutwillinger  29:02 You know, Michael, when I go visit my son in Toronto, we do spend some time at the dog parks, just sitting there. My dogs aren't even with me, yeah, just because I find it very calming and fun, you know? And I'm not stressed out about my dog chasing another dog, I just get to sit there and observe. But one thing I've noticed is in these parks, and there are, like, I almost call them bougie parks, because they're so fancy and the dogs are so well behaved, but they have wood chips all over and so I wonder, you know, I've often wondered, like, how do you what's the word I'm looking for? Like, how do they does the does the scent get absorbed? Or do they have to rake it all the time? Like, I'm not sure. Michael Hingson  29:52 Oh, it's raked a fair amount, and and wood chips are replaced as they need to. Be I've never been a fan of taking dogs to a dog park. Actually, I've seen some dogs that have been very seriously injured by other dogs at a dog park and so on. And I just personally tend not to, but I like the idea of just going in and being there, but yeah, I would not want to take my guide dogs there. I want to keep them as healthy as possible, so their lives are a little bit more sheltered, if you will. But that's okay, don't they do it's a team effort, and they're part of it, and it's my job to to make sure that that they stay healthy and get to be healthy. I was in New Zealand once, back in 2003 and I visited the the guide dog organization down there. What's really fascinating is they have a one square mile piece of property that is entirely fenced, and the guide dogs can can run free. So we actually, that's when I had my, my fifth guide dog who was with me in the World Trade Center, Roselle. And we let Roselle run around in there, and she was the only one at the time. But those dogs are really well behaved, and so nobody's really worried about them interacting in a negative way. But this huge, one square mile piece of property was just fascinating. The dogs can just run and romp and have a good time. Holly Gutwillinger  31:29 Nice. Yeah, I like the thought of that. Michael Hingson  31:33 So you guys do the podcast. When did you start it? You said, November? Holly Gutwillinger  31:37 Yep, we started beginning of November with I put out a small trailer because I was trying to, you know, get comfortable with the whole concept and step out of my my own fear, I suppose. And having my son there is just such a delight, because I love spending time with my sons, of course, and he's quite good at it, and he's got the voice, you know, and he does streaming on his own time, but it's, we've been doing it weekly, and it's just working. We record, you know, once, once a week. I don't overburden my my schedule and just having the best time i i do tend to when I fall into conversations with creatives. I sort of, I may be gathering information to see if they would be, you know, a likely guest. And if I feel like they are, then I, I'll ask them the question, you know, are you interested in podcasts, and would you like to be a guest? And it's not for everyone. And although no one has said no at to this point, but it's I suppose, not that I hand pick people, but I certainly I like to feel their connection with what I'm trying to say. Michael Hingson  32:52 I can appreciate that it's important to really have a conversation, which is why this podcast is much more conversational than interview ish, because I really want people to relax. And I don't remember whether I mentioned to you what the one hard and fast rule about being on this podcast is, you got to have fun. I like that. Yeah, you know. And I've had a couple people who said, Well, I can force myself to do that. And of course, they're being sarcastic, because everybody, everybody appreciates it, and that's the way it should be. It should be fun. It's not intended to be antagonistic or to make life difficult in any way. And having fun is important, Holly Gutwillinger  33:31 I agree, and it should find joy in the things that you do. And I mean not everything is joyful and brings happiness, but we should at least strive to find some joy, right? Michael Hingson  33:42 Well, yeah, we should do that. So do you have a word for the year? I do. Do you have a different word every year? Holly Gutwillinger  33:51 I do. I've been doing it for a few years because it really does give something more to my life, like it brings me joy. I mean, that's cheesy, but it really does. I have sticky notes right above my computer, and every now and again, I really do sort of spend time looking at those notes, and have to come back to the Word. So it's something that works for me. It's like, ready for my word. Sure, it's unstoppable. Michael Hingson  34:22 That's this year, huh? Yes, that's this year. And why? Holly Gutwillinger  34:30 Well, I mean, I took on writing this book. I never expected to have a beautiful paperback sitting in front of me, but I did do it, and I thought, hmm, I have always strived and pushed myself to do more, to try things. Never limit myself. You know, there's there have been many, many moments of fear of digging my heels in the sand. But I thought. Wow, look what I've accomplished in the last couple of years. And I thought, what else can I do? So I stepped out of the fear with the podcast, and I'm really finding my passion. And so it's not, you know, the word unstoppable is not meant to be arrogant. You know, ego centered. It's just, it's, it will continue to drive me forward, especially in those moments when I might falter someone and feel, whether, you know, if I'm questioning something, I just want to remember. I want to come back to no remember, you can do this. You're unstoppable, and you are the one who has created this for yourself. No one else. I've had help and I've had guidance, but at the end of the day, I I am the creator of everything I've done. Michael Hingson  35:54 So when I started this podcast back in August of 2001 I was trying to think of a title, a name for it, and I'd heard unstoppable a few times, but I didn't hear it nearly as much as I hear it now. And I heard other words like amazing and other things like that, and resilience that gets so overused, but unstoppable hadn't quite graduated to that place yet, and so I adopted it, but I also made an unstoppable mindset, and I think it's it's so important, because it led me to realize that what I wanted to do was to give anyone who had a story that they wanted to tell. Sometimes even people were brave enough to come on and say, Well, I don't think I have an interesting story, but I convinced them to come on the podcast, and we've had great times. But the idea is that, in reality, I think everyone on the planet has a story to tell, and I think that everyone on the planet has had challenges that they have overcome in their lives, and so for my purposes, and my opinion is that I want to give people the opportunity to come on and tell their stories and help encourage them to do that. And I think it's been very beneficial for a lot of people to be able to do that. But they do come on and they tell their stories and they talk about things they've done, and and they go away realizing, yeah, I'm not really as bad as I thought I was. Which is, which is really part of what it's all about. Because I think that the reality is, we all totally underrate ourselves Anyway, Holly Gutwillinger  37:35 yes, and in fact, you have taken me down a couple of memory lanes of my own right, with with some of your questions and and I appreciate that, because when we're done here, I'll get to reflect on some of those memories that I thought maybe that I had lost, and like a vision appeared in in my thoughts, and like, oh, okay, that's that's nice. Okay, so maybe that is where my origins are, and I just didn't remember. So thank you for that. Michael Hingson  38:06 Well, thank you. You know I think, I think we all have lots of memories, and I I think that the more we think about our ourselves and our lives and in a positive way, the more we do self analysis and introspection, I think that's a very important thing. I talk to people a lot about listening to their inner voice, and in my newest book, live like a guide dog, which is subtitled true stories from a blind man and his dogs, about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. The The idea is that, in reality, when we listen to our inner voice and when we really work at thinking about what happens every day, we are developing our as I call it mind muscle. And the reality is that that if we think about on any given day, if, like, before we go to sleep, we start to think about what happened today, what didn't work, what did work, what didn't work like we thought it would what worked, and how could I make it better? But really taking the time to do that, and then listening to our minds, which are always going to give us the right answer, if we truly listen, the fact is that we will get what we need to know. And for me, one of the greatest and strongest examples of all of that is for years, I've done a lot of reading, and I've done a lot of thinking, and I record every speech that I give, and when I listen to, well, not everyone, but most, most of them, when I can, I will listen to them. And I always said to people, I'm my own worst critic. If I listen to the speech, I'm going to figure out what needs to be done if I listen to it objectively. But over the last couple of years, just because of things I've read and heard, I realized I'm approaching this all wrong. I'm not my own worst critic, but. Because one of the things that I've learned is no one can teach me anything. I'm the only one who can truly teach me something. People can present me with information, but I have to accept it. I have to absorb it. I have to teach it to me. And so what I've learned is I'm not my own worst critic, I'm my own best teacher, and I approach what I do with that as a concept somebody, as you can tell, it's a much more positive way of looking at it. It's a less threatening way, but it opens up so many opportunities and so many doors. Holly Gutwillinger  40:32 Wow, that is incredible. I really to sit with that because I've given my inner critic a name, and I have tried to shift my perspective on my inner critic. When she's chirping loudly in my head, I shifted to She's driving me forward. She just doesn't have the right language to begin with, and so Michael Hingson  41:00 well she does. You're just not listening. Yeah, yeah. Because what I have, what I have found, is that that that inner self observed everything and has absorbed anything that you've experienced so they know the answers. And again, it's something I talk about a lot on unstoppable mindset. So I hope people don't get too bored of the example. But the game Trivial Pursuit. How many times do you play that game and somebody reads a question on a card, and you immediately think of an answer, and then you go, Oh, that's can't be the right answer. That's too easy. So you think about it, and you choose a different answer, and it turns out that first answer was the correct answer. All the time. We don't pay attention to our inner voice nearly as much as we should. Holly Gutwillinger  41:46 No, you're absolutely right about that, and we don't also, I think this is just my opinion. We don't listen to our own bodies. Michael Hingson  41:55 Yeah? Part of the same thing, but you're right. We don't, yeah? We tend Holly Gutwillinger  41:58 to ignore the signs, yeah? Because sometimes, like, I know for myself, I have actual physical, outwardly signs that I should have been listening to. And sometimes, like, what like, sometimes I'll have, well, you know, the the one that comes to mind first is the the upset stomach, but I also get like, a tingling sensation at the top of my head sometimes, or a tingling in on the top right corner of my cheekbone. And I know now what those mean, but I didn't for a long time, so I just need to listen and embrace it and just move through it. Michael Hingson  42:38 Yeah. And the reality is, your body will tell you when it's not happy with something, and you need to deal with that too. And the other part about it is there's so much in medical science, so sometimes you may not get any clue about something that's going on. And so it's always good to take advantage of all the opportunities that medical science provides to be able to keep up with what's going on with your body. Holly Gutwillinger  43:09 Agreed, and but these podcasts are so helpful because you can listen to so many different conversations, like I was saying before, and somebody will say something, and you might resonate strongly with that, but you just know it was it needed to have someone say it out loud in order for you to hear it right. Michael Hingson  43:33 But then it's not only hearing it, but it's then paying attention to it and thinking about it and then doing something with it, yes, which is really the issue paper Holly Gutwillinger  43:44 and pen around. Sorry, that's why you should always carry paper and pen around to take notes. Michael Hingson  43:49 There you go. Yeah, lot of good reasons for doing that. So what's a in in a perfect world, what would your writer's life look like, Holly Gutwillinger  44:01 Oh, I think about that a lot more these days, since I'm nearing retirement. But a perfect writer's life would be, you know, waking up in the morning reading for a while to fill that cup. No pun intended. I guess I would need a cup of coffee there as well, and then I would write, or actually I would probably go for a run or a walk right after that to get things moving. And that is one of my channels for being creative. And then I would write for quite some time. My husband would cook me a meal. This is wishful thinking, right? So I'm allowed to dream here, and then I might write a little bit more in the afternoon, but we would then go out for a walk in the late afternoon, and then just relax in the evening, because I'm an Early To Bed kind of person, Michael Hingson  44:57 yeah, me too. What time do you go to bed? I. Holly Gutwillinger  45:00 Oh gosh, 839 I prefer to be up at five, Michael Hingson  45:03 so I go to bed usually by eight, if I can, and I'm up at like 430 because my wife was always a later riser. But I'm so used to being in environments where, like from the West Coast, I would be selling to the East Coast, that I needed to to be able to take calls by 6am our time. But now I just find it relaxing to get up and get dressed, take Alamo the puppy dog out and let him do his business. Actually, we have a fenced yard so that works out feed the kitty cat who insists on being petted while she eats most all the time. So gotta go time to what you gotta do, and then have my own breakfast. So I usually don't get in the office now until around 630 unless then there are a couple of times that it happens somebody schedules a meeting really early in the day, which which can be done. But I know what you're saying, and when I do that, and I get at least eight hours of sleep, though, I am good for the whole day, Holly Gutwillinger  46:09 yes, I agree. And I do love my sleep. I find, do you find that those wee hours of the morning are just so peaceful? Yeah? Michael Hingson  46:18 And I think that's really important, yeah. I agree. I agree. You know, I I don't spend a lot of time well, thinking or worrying about things. Thought comes up, a thought comes up, but I don't worry. It's a time to relax and be peaceful. And after Alamo goes out, he comes in and he wants attention, so we sit on the floor and talk for a while. He's always happy with that and and the kitty tolerates us both, so it works out so Holly Gutwillinger  46:51 same time, Michael Hingson  46:53 and whenever she wants to eat, I have to definitely pet her. That's the usual time that she gets attention. And so, yeah, she definitely wants to be petted when she eats, and if I don't, she'll yell at me until I do. Well, we're not happy if we're not getting the attention that we want. She's not spoiled at all, is she Mike? No. Dogs have masters and cats have staff, and that's all there is to it. I like that. Yeah, that's the way it is so. So does your husband cook? Holly Gutwillinger  47:23 Oh yes, yes, we both cook. Its because he keeps saying, when he retires, which is before me, He'll prepare all the meals and I'll just have to work, and he'll have my lunch ready and my supper ready. And I said, That sounds lovely. When are you retiring? Yeah, hurry up. Michael Hingson  47:41 So is he still doing mining? Holly Gutwillinger  47:43 Yes, yeah, he works in the mining industry. And he's got another year our son, our oldest son, is still in school. He's in Michigan, going to Ferris State for Optometry. And so, you know, we just want to remain employed, just in case he needs a little bit of Michael Hingson  48:00 help and or once you both retire, then you can talk to him about being supported in the manner that you want to become accustomed to, because he's working. That's right, yeah, gotta deal with the important things. And what work do you do these days? Holly Gutwillinger  48:15 Well, I work in administration, but it's with the Correctional Service of Canada. It's here in Canada that is our correctional with public safety. So I work on corporate reports and all the very exciting pieces of reports, hopefully, but I thought it's just not very entertaining or exciting. Michael Hingson  48:38 Is that something you do remotely? Yes, ah, it Holly Gutwillinger  48:42 wasn't in this I changed jobs, you know, a few times, but this is where I am right now, Michael Hingson  48:49 but nowadays with computers and so on. So you do it from home, which, which is, which is a good thing too. And I'm used to working from home, or when I was in New York, I was in an office in the World Trade Center, and I had people who worked for me and so on. And I've had other jobs where I work remotely, so sometimes it was from home and and sometimes not. But it's also about developing a discipline, because you've still got to get the work done. And no matter what your your job is, you still gotta do the work, Holly Gutwillinger  49:25 I think yet you, you read my mind there, Michael, because for me, when I had to, you know, hunker down and get my Bachelor of Arts done in 2019 started in 2018 I needed discipline. Because I've, I worked full time throughout the whole process, had kids, and so I needed to really focus. And I think, I believe that that helped me for these times, because I do have the discipline I'm I have a separate space. I enjoy it, in fact, because my work has always been I've always. Been surrounded with people, and I used to call myself the bartender, because everybody would come to me and unload on me, and I'd be like a vault. And now I just, I get to focus on my work and get to shut the door. You know, my goal was always to have my own window, my door, and bring my dog to work. Michael Hingson  50:17 Well, yeah, yeah. What kind of dog? Holly Gutwillinger  50:22 So I have two mutts, as we call them, but we believe one is a box or pointer, we're not quite sure, and the other one is a shepherd mix. So the two rescues, Michael Hingson  50:34 that's cool. Holly Gutwillinger  50:36 Yeah, they're they're in their senior years now that we think they're around 12. Michael Hingson  50:41 Well, my guide dog, Alamo, will be 10 in May, and we rescued stitch from some people who were going to take her to the pound. And we didn't think we were going to to keep her. We said we would find her a home, until I learned that her name was stitch. And then I knew that this cat was going nowhere, because my wife has been a professional quilter, ever since 1994 quilter giving up a cat named stitch ain't gonna happen. No, no, no, no, and stitch is very happy with that. Holly Gutwillinger  51:09 Oh, that's nice. What kind of cat does it like? What color? Michael Hingson  51:14 Well, she looks like a calico, calico cat, but people tell me she's a small Maine Coon cat. Oh, she doesn't she's not that very large, though. She's only about 1011, pounds, but lots of personality, which is fine, yes. So tell us about your your first book that you wrote. How long did it take? And just tell us all about that. Holly Gutwillinger  51:40 So I would say, three solid, full, packed years. It took me from from beginning to now. Like I said, it started out with my my dogs, and kind of gifting me with the story, because I've always had dogs, but these two in particular have their own set of issues, you know, anxieties, fears, and I've always tried to fix them, and so over the years, I've tried so many different things, like dog behaviorists, obedience classes, dog parks, no dog parks, socializing, all of it, and it just, you know, they're great dogs, and I love them, but one is much more assertive than the other. So we got the other one to keep the first one company. Oh, my goodness, so many things. And that day when Sully came bounding towards me and sort of said to me, like, I'm okay, you don't need to change me or fix me. Just accept me and just the way I've accepted you. And that's when it started for me. So like, I started writing more and more and more scenes, more chapters, until I had this full story, which started out as my story, but then I thought, well, I could have some fun with this. I could give Sully a voice so he could tell people his story. And that's when I created a protagonist who was younger than me. She has a lot of my traits, of course, but she is her own character now. But the two dogs in the story are cash and Sally, and they are my dog. So everything that happens to them did happen in real life. Michael Hingson  53:16 How'd you come up with the two names for the dogs? Holly Gutwillinger  53:20 So that was a sign for me for cash. That is when I went to the pound and he told me his name, and he said his name was cash. And I said, Well, I want a dog with a gangster name like cash. He said, No, no, no, it's Johnny Cash. And I that was it. Sally came with a different name. It was rugger, and I just find that name so difficult to roll off the tongue. Yeah. So my husband named him Sullivan, ah. Michael Hingson  53:49 And so it's Sully for short, Holly Gutwillinger  53:52 yes, cool, Sullivan, when we mean business like, yeah, yeah, Michael Hingson  53:58 yeah, I understand, like parents the world over use the long version of a child's name when they're trying to really get the child's attention. Holly Gutwillinger  54:10 That's right, yeah, yeah. So what's your Holly? And there's no long or short form, Michael Hingson  54:17 they don't call you Hall for short or anything like that well, but then it's how you say it. You know, it's Holly as opposed to Holly. That's right, that's right. They still have ways. Holly Gutwillinger  54:28 Yeah, yeah. So what's your second book about? My second book is starting to work on Yes, it's a sweet romance, and it's a meet cute that takes place in the dog park. So there will be a lot of dogs in this story as well. But my hope with this book is there's been a history of you know, the guy rescues the girl all the time in these romance stories, and there will be some of that, like he will come to her rescue at times, but there will be momentum. Event where she will have to rescue him. That's fair. Michael Hingson  55:06 Yeah, it goes both ways. That's right. So what do you want readers to take away from the works that you write? Holly Gutwillinger  55:17 Well for this book, in particular, north of broken and in forever home, I started out as a way to get to know my dogs, even though I had already had them for over 10 years, but I was trying to find a different way to understand what was going on, and what I thought was, you know, that sticker, that bumper sticker, who rescued, who turned out to be more of a story of acceptance. And so I needed to realize that once I accepted them for, you know, their their personalities, their issues, then we could move into a different part of our relationship, because they accepted me from day one with all of my, you know, Holly isms and quirks and and so it was only fair that I did the same. Now that being said like they're dogs, and I'm a responsible dog owner, and I, you know, they had behavioral issues, but we always made sure that people were safe or they were safe, and so I, I don't want this to be interpreted like I just let them get away with things. No, it was more of the way that I needed to accept who they were and sort of, you know, move in line with that instead of fighting it all the time. So what I'm asking readers to take away, well, first, I'm asking them to put aside their judgment, because there's a talking dog. But second is just, you know, accept what you cannot change, and work with it. You know. Michael Hingson  56:48 Well, you said that you did a lot of different things, like obedience training and animal behavior, and obviously you worked with, I would assume, professionals and a lot of that. What did you learn from all of that? Holly Gutwillinger  57:02 Well, I did learn how to behave around a dog and how to observe the dog, looking for key signs, their eyes, their ears, their tail, their body language, something I never really paid attention to before, because the dogs I've always had never really had these types of issues. And so it was always it taught me how to almost be a step ahead of them in the sense that, like, if we were going for a walk, well, maybe I needed to just shift my body weight or be a little bit more assertive in my stance. So it was just learning how to take notice and to read my dogs instead of reacting. Michael Hingson  57:44 For a number of years, we lived in Northern California, in a town called Novato, and just down the street, well, about a mile, not quite a mile away, was the marine Humane Society, which is one of the foremost organizations of its kind in this country, and we were over visiting and talking with people one day, and one of the things that they said was that, in reality, when people bring their dogs in to say, we need this dog trained and so on, 90% of the training is human, and only about 10% is really the dog, which makes a lot of sense, given The way people typically view dogs and so on, and they don't accept them for what they are nearly as much as as they should, which doesn't mean that dogs shouldn't behave and so on. And the reality is that dogs want to behave. They want to know what you want the rules to be, but you have to learn how to set the rules and set the expectations and develop that trusting relationship. Holly Gutwillinger  58:48 I agree with that, and I think that dogs know how to behave with one another, but we are asking them to shift to the way we live. Yeah, so naturally, there's going to be some behaviors there and some changes. So I agree, it's training the Michael Hingson  59:06 human Yeah, and the reality is, you can get them to accept a lot of the things that we want and do but, but there's a way to do that, and that's what, what people don't do. Well, if you have a choice, do you want to live or be spend a week on the beach reading or in a cabin writing off in the wilderness somewhere. Holly Gutwillinger  59:25 Definitely the second I thought cabin in the woods even. I'll even take it in the winter with snow, put me beside and peace nature, birds, animals, any day. I'm not a heat worshiper and I well, I suppose it comes with with who I am. You know, I was, I was born in northern Ontario and lived in northern Canada, so it's part of my DNA. Michael Hingson  59:52 Now we need to learn, collectively as humans, that there's nothing wrong with quiet and. Silence time, and that communing with ourselves is a good thing, Holly Gutwillinger  1:00:08 definitely, and that's why I look forward to some of those long drives now too. Michael Hingson  1:00:12 There you are. Who's someone that you Holly Gutwillinger  1:00:17 looked up to that is, gosh, it's not that I'm drawing a blank. It's just that, you know, there are a lot of people that have guided me along the way, and I'm trying to pinpoint, but I would say, recently, I have a friend now. We've been we've become very good friends, and I feel like she gave me the permission this, this may come across not the right way, but what I'm trying to say is, one day she looked at me and she said I was questioning whether I could write, and I called myself a writer from the heart, and I didn't believe I belonged. And she said, Well, I think you're already a writer. And it was like a switch just flipped on. And it's like she gave me permission to really step into that, that label that, you know, those shoes, and I feel like it was always meant for me, but I didn't believe in myself enough to do it. And so I really looked up to her. I look up to her. She took me under her wing, and she taught me a lot about the craft of writing, and now we've become such good friends. And yeah, at this point, but there are many people who have guided me along the way, but I would say recently, strong woman who stood in her own who stands it well in her own feet? Yeah, has really helped me through this part of my journey. Michael Hingson  1:01:47 If somebody came up to you and said, I I just feel stuck. I can't create. I don't know how to create, or I want to write, and I'm having a hard time doing it. What kind of advice would you give them? Holly Gutwillinger  1:02:02 I would I would say immediately, just, how about we go for a walk in the woods for because for me, that's that helps. Doesn't even have to be the woods. It could be wherever you are, right? But I think that if you're I'm a I'm a lover of trees, and so I feel like when you surround yourself with the things that you love or that give you strength or peace. The ideas will come, but you just need to quiet your mind long enough for for the thoughts to filter into those spaces of your mind. There you go. So much stuff, so you have to, almost like work off that excess energy. So I say move, move your body. Michael Hingson  1:02:44 So you are involved in some local writers organizations and so on, aren't you? Yes, I am and so on. So if somebody wants to reach out to you and talk about writing and talk about what you do and learn from you, how can they reach out to you? What's the best ways to do that. Holly Gutwillinger  1:03:01 I'm on a lot of the social media platforms, Instagram, Facebook, and I do have a website, ramblings from the little shed, and you can email me. I would love to give back what was given to me. And so I would love to support other writers in their journey, in the beginning not to say that I have all the answers. I certainly don't, but I'm not afraid to ask questions, and I think that talking it out with people, sometimes it's even just bantering back and forth about a story idea and the importance that what can come out from a good old conversation if you tune in. Michael Hingson  1:03:40 So is it? Ramblings from the little shed. Calm, that's correct.com. Okay. And if people find you on social media, how do they do that? What do they look for? Holly Gutwillinger  1:03:53 Ramblings from the little shed, okay, yep. And I try to keep it fairly steady across the board. Michael Hingson  1:04:00 That's fair. Well, Holly, I want to thank you for being with us today. This has been fun, and I want to thank all of you who are out there for tuning in today and and being with us. We appreciate it. Wherever you are. I'd love it if you'd give us a review on the podcast talk about, hopefully, all good things. We'd appreciate a review, because people who are exploring listening to podcasts, check those reviews out. Certainly. If you'd like to reach out to me, I'd love to hear from you. It's easy. It's speaker, S, P, E, A, k, e, r at Michael hingson, M, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, o n.com. And if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on our podcast, Holly, including you, we'd sure love to hear from you or introduce us to them, and we'll go from there. Because I, as I said, I believe everyone has a story to tell. But again, Holly, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely fun. Holly Gutwillinger  1:04:58 It has been amazing, and I can't believe. Believe our time is over. It just it's like we just started chatting. So that's that says a lot about how comfortable this is. So thank you, Michael, I really appreciate Michael Hingson  1:05:15 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

A sudden loss changed everything. In this episode, I sit down with Chanoa Inez, whose life took an unexpected turn when a joyful trip overseas became the beginning of a long journey through grief, healing, and transformation. Chanoa shares how losing her partner while living abroad forced her to face deep emotional challenges and rebuild her life from the ground up. Along the way she developed a thriving copywriting career, explored the deeper roots of resilience and self-love, and eventually wrote her book Dream On to help others navigate upheaval and loss. As you listen, I believe you will hear how Chanoa discovered that joy, purpose, and even a dream life can emerge again when we learn to understand our stories, trust ourselves, and move forward with an unstoppable mindset. Highlights: ·  00:10 — Why Michael created the Unstoppable Mindset podcast to show people they are more capable than they think. ·  10:39 — How graduating during the Great Recession led Chanoa to discover freelance writing and build her copywriting career. ·  17:07 — The life-changing moment when her boyfriend unexpectedly passed away while they were living in Montenegro. ·  25:00 — How starting and growing her copywriting business helped her rebuild stability after loss. ·  36:59 — Why Chanoa decided to write her book Dream On about rebuilding life after upheaval. ·  48:55 — How Chanoa defines joy as “energized happiness” and why reconnecting to it changes everything. Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: Chanoa Inez is a Los Angeles-based author, personal transformation advisor (for people) and a messaging strategist (for brands). She's passionate about helping people and businesses lean into who and what they really are so they can stand out and make a real impact. When it comes to people, she makes that happen through her programs in MAGNETIZE YOUR PERSONAL BRAND™. Chanoa helps her clients become more memorable to attract more (and better) opportunities by showing them how to lean into their true selves, position their personal brands, embrace visibility, elevate their verbal and nonverbal communication, and more. In her work supporting startups and Fortune 500 corporations alike, Chanoa helps tech, fintech, and luxury companies develop memorable brand messaging and content that clarifies their place in the market, attracts their ideal clients, and helps them stand out in a sea of industry-speak and sameness; she’s a brand voice specialist too. Years after a difficult, sudden loss, Chanoa Inez realized every area of her life was still touched by the immense grief from that fateful morning in Montenegro. So she set down a path for change marked by challenging hurdles but also awe and amazing opportunities. Steeped in gratitude for her life’s transformation, she couldn’t wait to share the techniques and perspectives that helped her achieve more and more happiness, health, and success.  In her book Dream On: How to create the new life of your dreams after upheaval or loss, Chanoa helps readers skip years of trial and error, delivering those learnings with the momentum of her craft as a copywriter. Readers are greeted with a set of meaningful paths designed to help them achieve the new lives of their dreams with far greater speed. Ways to connect with Chanoa: Website: https://www.chanoainez.com/ LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chanoa/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chanoainez/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What happens when success, hustle, and constant work stop bringing fulfillment? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I talk with marketing strategist and entrepreneur Carlos Hidalgo about business growth, faith, burnout, and the hidden cost of hustle culture. Carlos shares his journey from corporate marketing leader to founder of Digital Exhaust, along with lessons from his book The UnAmerican Dream about work addiction, burnout, and redefining success. Their conversation explores why growth does not need to be complicated, why storytelling builds trust in business, and why boundaries matter more than work life balance. Carlos also opens up about faith, failure, relationships, and the power of honest conversations. You will hear practical insights on leadership, personal growth, community, and building a life that is both successful and meaningful. Highlights: ·  06:04 – Carlos explains how his faith became a personal relationship. ·  17:32 – Why he left corporate work to start his own business. ·  25:40 – His approach to making business growth simple. ·  30:17 – How hustle culture often leads to burnout. ·  42:29 – Why boundaries matter more than work life balance. ·  54:33 – Why real community helps solve loneliness. Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: Carlos Hidalgo is the co-founder and CEO of Digital Exhaust, a growth partner that helps clients make growth simple. Carlos serves his clients as an advisor, consultant, and teacher to ensure they have meaningful engagement with their customers at every stage of the journey and are able to mature and create sustainable growth. Carlos has 30 years of experience working with organizations of all sizes as an advisor, consultant, innovator, and growth expert. He is widely recognized for his expertise in demand generation, marketing, sales, and customer experience and for coaching executives in the areas of leadership and managing change. In addition to his work with his clients, Carlos has won numerous marketing awards and been named to several prestigious industry lists as a marketing leader. Carlos is also the author of Driving Demand, which is ranked as a top 5 marketing book of all time by Book Authority, and The UnAmerican Dream, which was released in 2019. In addition to books, Carlos is a well-known international keynote and TEDx speaker. You can follow Carlos on LinkedIn or on Twitter @cahidalgo Ways to connect with Scott**:** LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/carlosahidalgo/ Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/CHidalgoJr Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/cahidalgo_ Twitter/X: https://x.com/cahidalgo About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi and welcome once again to an episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, our guest is Carlos Hidalgo. Carlos has many facets about him. He's a speaker. He deals with growth and growth management and with his company. He tries to make growth simple for the people who are his clients. I'm interested in learning about that, but he does other things as well. He is also involved with his wife and marriage counseling, which is a little bit different than the one I think I find a lot of people to do. So I think we got lots to talk about. So, Carlos, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Carlos Hidalgo  01:59 Thank you for having me. Michael, it's an absolute pleasure. Well, let's Michael Hingson  02:03 start with the early Carlos, why don't you tell us about you growing up and all that sort of thing, and where you came from, where you're headed, or whatever. Carlos Hidalgo  02:14 Sure, I was born one of six children. I was the youngest for about four years, and then my my parents had two more. So I am smack dab in the middle of middle six siblings. Was born in New Jersey, but call where I'm at now home, which is a little town in the Adirondack Mountains. And the reason I call it home, I started coming to camp here when I was five years old. Fell in love with the area, and then my father, in 1983 moved us up here when I was 12, and fell more in love with it. And that lasted for four years. And then my junior of high school, or right after my sophomore year, was told, Hey, we're we're moving I was 16, I was pretty pissed off at the prospect of leaving a place I loved, so I had engineered a plan to stay through my junior and senior high school, which in my mind, made perfect sense in my parents' mind, and for reasons now I understand, because I'm a parent, did not make so much sense, but I came back as often as I could, and then my wife and I moved here back full time in 2021 we also lived here in the 90s for two years, had our first son here so but grew up really charmed childhood was my dad was in advertising, so we got tickets to Great sporting events. We had horses that I took care of, along with some of my siblings, developed a love of the outdoors, which I still hold, which is one of the many benefits of living up here again. And so, yeah, pretty, pretty much, early childhood was, you know, be outside as much as I can run around school work wasn't my strong suit, but I muddled through and I Michael Hingson  04:04 made it. Where in New Jersey were you born? Carlos Hidalgo  04:07 Was born in a little town called Randolph in northern jersey. Spent most of our time in a place called blairis town. Their claim to fame as a prep school called Blair Academy, which I believe is still there. And then, I believe it was the original Friday the 13th was filmed. Part of it was filmed in Blairstown. Yeah, yeah. So I'm dating myself just a little bit. Michael Hingson  04:32 Well, we lived in Westfield for six years, so kind of know, New Jersey, but yeah, while we were back there, my wife always wanted to move back to California. She's a native. I was born in Chicago. She wouldn't let me call myself a native, even though we moved to California when I was five. But yeah, it's okay. Carlos Hidalgo  04:50 Sure, yeah, people get a little touchy about the term native or local and how it's defined, right? Michael Hingson  04:55 Oh, yeah, it varies all around the country, but there's. Nothing. You can't say anything bad about Chicago. They have Garrett Popcorn there. If you've never had it, next time we go through O'Hare Airport, you should get some Garrett Popcorn. Carlos Hidalgo  05:09 Okay, I will do that absolutely. Michael Hingson  05:12 Take a memo. Get Garrett Popcorn. It's it's really good stuff. Well, so what did you do for college? Or did you? Carlos Hidalgo  05:21 Yeah, I went to my first year, I went to a school called Word of Life Bible Institute. So it's a one year intensive program, study of the Bible actually here, not far from, literally eight miles down the road here, from where I live now. And at that point, it was really just an excuse to get back to the Adirondacks for a year, but I learned a whole lot. Met some incredible people, some of who I'm still very, very close with today. And then from there, I transferred to Cedarville University in Ohio. At the time I went there, we were about 2500 students. I think today they're closer to 7500 but I met my wife there, which was that, in and of itself, the three years of tuition that I paid as I transferred in, but study Business Communication, again, I wasn't a great student. What I realized is, if it was the things that I really loved to participate in, it was awesome. I had a really great time studying communication and language and how we speak. I was two years on the debate team, which was such a great education in and of itself. But everything else I didn't really love. I just the general ed stuff. I kind of thought, well, if I can skate by and, you know, get that, get the passing the credits. So that's really how I want about it. And the reality is, the way things are taught today, I'm a very visual and hands on learner, and so to sit in a classroom and try to take notes and go through theory and things like that just makes my brain hurt a little bit. So I but I but I finished. I got the degree and made some great friendships in the process. Michael Hingson  07:04 Well and clearly, based on what you did for your first year, you have a Christian orientation, or definitely a god orientation as well. Carlos Hidalgo  07:15 Yeah, that's that's really my operating system. Michael, I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. I base my life on it. I spend time in it each and every day. And so what's interesting in that regard is, yes, I went to the Bible Institute. So while I had a lot of head knowledge about the Bible and God and Jesus and all these things, it's really been in the last 10 years that I would say I had a deep, meaningful relationship with them, and that came as from a lot of experience in my life, a lot of dark, dark moments in my life that were self induced, unfortunately. But really, what it's done for me is it's just radicalized who I am, changed my heart. And so it's gone from a having a head knowledge of it to a real experience and an engagement with Christ through His Word and through prayer. Michael Hingson  08:11 Yeah, head knowledge is is a fine thing as far as it goes, but there's nothing like personally experience coming closer to whatever it is, including dealing with believing in God and really recognizing what what God brings. And my last book that I wrote that was published last year, called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith very much deals with with a lot of that, the whole concept of the value and the power of personal knowledge, as opposed to just head knowledge. I talk about the World Trade Center a lot in that book, specifically in terms of what I learned and how I developed a mindset to be able to control fear, rather than letting it be the thing that overwhelmed me or overwhelms anyone and and I've had a couple people on this podcast who talk about it, and they say the same sort of thing that you did. It's not about knowledge that you sort of intellectually know. It's what you really know. So people, for example, in evacuating the World Trade Center, would look at signs, and they would follow those and a lot of people were able to do that, but that's still not knowing that is really relying on something else that you may or may not really have access to. So True Knowledge is the only way to go Carlos Hidalgo  09:38 100% and I find that I gather that through experience, yeah. And so the example I use is, if you ask me about my wife, you know, do you know Suzanne? I would say, Oh, yeah. You know, blonde hair, blue eyes, about five, five. Funny, smart. I could tell you all the different facts, but there's a big difference when you sit and you get to experience being with her, seeing. Her, how she interacts with people, how she treats others, all of those things. Take that knowledge and actually make an experience an experience, yeah. And so that's been the difference for me, as it regard, in my relationship with Jesus Christ, yeah, well, Michael Hingson  10:14 and Suzanne, so that's good. Carlos Hidalgo  10:17 Well, so absolutely, 31 years and we're still going. There you go. Michael Hingson  10:21 Well, keep going. That's that's cool. That's great to have that kind of a relationship. It's all too often we don't see a lot of that in marriage, and just people get married without knowing and that leads to all sorts of potential challenges. So it's good to really get to know someone Carlos Hidalgo  10:41 absolutely, yeah, I'm still, still learning, still studying her and learning all I can, after 31 Michael Hingson  10:46 years, and she is too Yes, she is. Carlos Hidalgo  10:49 She does a phenomenal job. Michael Hingson  10:52 So what did you do after college? Carlos Hidalgo  10:56 After college, I actually moved back up here, where I'm at now. Worked for two years for Word of Life, the same group that ran the Bible Institute. So then, actually, unbeknownst to me, i My heart was really at that point, I wanted to go into law enforcement. My father in law was an FBI agent for 30 years. I'd always been intrigued by law enforcement, so I thought going into and getting a job for a few years, cutting my teeth while I filled out a resume. So started working in the office of donor development or advancement, and that was the first time I really started to get any exposure to anything formal, marketing wise. In the meantime, applied to the FBI, never went anywhere. Ended up applying again, never went anywhere at that point. Then we moved to we left here after two years of marriage and having one child. We moved to Michigan for a brief time, and then we went back to down to from Michigan. We went to Dallas, where we lived for 13 years, and I worked while I was still trying to get into law enforcement. I kept getting marketing jobs and companies. So eventually I gave up the dream of law enforcement and just followed what's unfolding and had a pretty good career in two software companies as a director of marketing to cut my teeth and learn what global business was all about do a lot of travel, which helped me career wise wasn't so great home wise or parent wise when you're away from your kids, but it's been my career for 30 plus years. I've had a heck of a career doing it and very grateful for it, but I still still get intrigued at the whole concept of law enforcement, but I'm afraid I'm a little too old at this point to start down that path. Michael Hingson  12:47 How come you kept not getting anywhere with it? Carlos Hidalgo  12:51 Well, I did get to a point where the FBI I took a test when we lived in Dallas, and just they called after said I had scored well, which made me chuckle, thinking back to my college days of test taking, but and then they said, Hey, do you speak Spanish, which I do not, despite my name, which is very Spanish, Carlo. And they said, Okay, well, we'll keep your we'll keep your application on file. Let you know if anything changes. And that was the last I heard. So at that point, I just thought, okay, I can keep pushing this and trying. But again, as things started to unfold in the software world, the jobs that I had took care of my family. They provided well for us. They gave me opportunities to learn new things, try new things, opportunity to, like I said, international business, which I never done before. So at that point, I just thought, you know, I'm kind of seven, eight years into this thing. What does this look like going forward? And then are we going to have to just hit reset in all facets of our lives, financially, where our kids are settled, for me to go into law enforcement. So I abandoned it, and I'm okay with that. I think it would have been a phenomenal career. I would have loved it, like I said. I'm still intrigued by it, I still have great respect for it, but it just wasn't in the cards for me, and I'm okay with that. I think sometimes the way we grow is through the death of a dream. Michael Hingson  14:21 Yeah, I know I've always been intrigued by law and law enforcement, and I know that they're never going to hire me, and now they won't, right, but, but they wouldn't hire me, but I took, actually, some courses in college dealing with police and other things like that, because I was, and still am fascinated by it, and I have a great respect for the law. And I I admire good lawyers who are knowledgeable, who really are in it to deal with the law. And you can tell those from the typical ambulance type chaser who manipulates, but, but. I really appreciate the law. I in my life have had the opportunity to be involved with some efforts of the National Federation of the Blind, where we've gone several times to Washington to meet with congressional types. And so I've met some interesting people, met Ted Kennedy, met Tip O'Neill when he was still speaker, Senator Saugus from Massachusetts and others, and found and through them, got to meet some people who were truly committed to what they were doing. They weren't in it for the power. They were in it to try to really help the country and help their individual constituencies in their states and so on. It's a lot of fun. Carlos Hidalgo  15:47 Oh, I'm sure, I'm sure it was, I that's quite a roster of people you've been able to engage with, and I'm sure, no doubt, influence well. Michael Hingson  15:57 And we were there to talk about legislation that we needed. But I'll never forget first time we went in and we met Paul Tsongas. We talked about what we wanted to talk about, and he said, Well, it's the end of the day. What are you guys doing now? And we said, well, we're just going to go back to the hotel. And he said, You got a few minutes talk to you about Massachusetts. Well, we ended up staying for two hours. It was a lot of fun. Carlos Hidalgo  16:19 Wow, yeah, that is a lot of fun. I had an opportunity a number of years ago to do a tour of the West Wing, which was just phenomenal. So when you get, when you get those opportunities, I don't care what side of the aisle you may sit on or are partial to, the answer is yes, take it, because you learn a whole lot, and it's it gives you a whole new appreciation for our country. Michael Hingson  16:40 Well, 20 years ago, I was invited to come back and meet George W Bush because a congressman I had met was fascinated by my story and the story of my guide dog, Roselle, and he arranged for us to meet George W and we went back. It was supposed to be a brief, like two minute just photo op. This ended up being like a 15 minute conversation, and then it was a lot of fun. And I hope that we inspired him some, and we made a difference. And, you know, that's always a good thing. Carlos Hidalgo  17:13 Yeah, at the end of the day, right there people just like us. They are, I think the and I've heard that a lot about George W is his investment in people where he knew his you know, everybody in the staff that he knew their names, he knew about their families. So it doesn't surprise me that a two minute Meet and Greet was extended a little bit. Michael Hingson  17:34 We kept the Italian Prime Minister waiting while we finished our conversation, as it turns out, that's fine, Carlos Hidalgo  17:42 but it was good. There you go. There's your there, there's your the two truth and the lie icebreaker that they have. You do sometimes. There's, you can work that in, Michael Hingson  17:49 I could work that in, yeah, that would be, yeah, I should do that. Well, it was, but it was, it was, it was very enjoyable to be able to do that. Well. So now, so when did you start your own company? That's been a little while, at least. Carlos Hidalgo  18:04 Yeah, I started my first company that I started, I co founded with my brother. In 2005 I was working at the software company, and I just, I started to just have an edge of, you know, I should start something. I don't know what that looks like. And I remember one time just talking to my wife, and I said, I don't want to be 7580 years old. And think, what if, yeah, and my wife is very practical. And she said, Okay, so go for it, and if it doesn't work, just go get another job. And when she broke it down like that, I just thought, wow. Okay, she, I think she believes in me more than I do. So in 2005 I left the software company and we started a agency. And really, at that point for me, the Yes, I wanted to start my own company and see if I could do it. But the the big driving factor was my at that point, I we had four children, so we have four, and they were all pretty small, and I was traveling all over the country, and I didn't want to miss their childhood. And I remember coming home from trips and hearing conversations or seeing things that that I wasn't a part of, and I thought this, this isn't right. I need to be here. I need to be home. So I went to the software company, asked them what they thought they became my first client, and I did that for from 2005 to just early 2017 when I resigned my position as CEO there just to get my life back and kind of hit the reset button again, but this time, I meant it, so I left, and they're still going. But that was my first foray into entrepreneurship, and I just kept doing it since I started another consultancy, and now this is my third one, and also been part of about two to three other companies that. We launched, but never made it. So I enjoy the whole process. I love it, but, yeah, it's, I don't know. I mean, I will never say never, but the idea of not working for myself seems rather foreign to me. Michael Hingson  20:16 So the first company you had for 12 years, what did that do? Carlos Hidalgo  20:21 We were a mark. Marketing Yeah, we were a marketing services company. So we worked with business to business companies to help them in their demand generation, acquiring new customers and also customer growth. So that's really where a lot of my career has been sent, centered right, helping companies design them strategies, everything from content to technology to developing personas and putting together strategies on how to reach them when they're looking for something to buy that that client offers. Michael Hingson  20:52 Okay, well, that makes sense and certainly a worthy thing to do. So, when did you form your current company, digital exhaust, which is a very clever name, you'll have to tell me about that. Carlos Hidalgo  21:04 Oh yeah, there's a little bit of a story behind that. So I was working in 2022 early 2022 I had an offer to go be the Chief Revenue Officer of another agency, which I my wife and I talked about it, we prayed about it, and I had a really, really close friend of mine who was their chief strategy officer at the time, so the ability to work with him, stay in the industry and work with some really good clients, I jumped at, so I took that role over that role lasted eight months. I won't get into all those details of why? Never, never, really did get a clear answer. The answer I was given, not exactly. The numbers didn't the number. I'll just say the numbers proved otherwise. All that said that came to an end in 2023 I believe. Yeah, yeah, 2023 and so February, 23 so at that point, I was like, Okay, well, what do I do? I can try to go get a job, which I did. Nobody was really interested in, you know, early 50s, guy coming in. So, you know, did the interview thing. And then I just thought, Well, why don't, why don't I just bet on myself again and go for it. So at that point, the my friend who was the chief strategy officer, he had also left, so he and I started talking and thought, why don't we just do this together? You know, services he loves to implement, I love to sell. Let's just see if we can make a run at this. So here we are now. It'll be four years in or three years, I guess, in February or April of 26 and we're still alive to talk about it. And so that's how it came to be. It was really just, I've done this before. There's no security, no more security. I believe in working for somebody else than working for yourself. So bet on yourself and put out your shingle and see what you can make happen. Michael Hingson  23:06 Where did the name digital exhaust come from? That's a clever name. Carlos Hidalgo  23:10 Oh, thank you. We were, we were batting around so many different names, and we just had a thing, I think we had a running Google Sheet, like, let's just throw names up there. And then I was listening to a recording of a vendor that we had done work with in our early days, and he was talking about how you can track the digital movements of someone. And he said, You know, so basically, you know, they're leaving behind their digital exhaust. And he used the term twice. So I called my then partner, Tracy, and I said, Hey, what do you think about the name digital exhaust as a company? And he was like, Oh, I love it. So I said, Well, before we that, we have to call Dan and see if he would be okay. So I did some looking, you know, the whole trademark search, and when I told our partner about it. He said, Oh my word, I love it. He said, Never, never even thought that that could be a name, but if you guys want it, go for it. So we took it and it is, it's, it's, we think it's pretty unique, and it also describes a lot of what we do with customer data to get an understanding of how do you engage with them, where are they, and how are they going to interact with you and your brand? How so well. Again, he was right. I can look at your digital footprint or your digital behavior. I can see what sites you've visited, what web pages you visited, how much time you spend on a product piece, how much content you engage so I can look at all of that behind the scenes. Start to score that if you're an account that I want to go after, or if I'm a lead based sale, that gives me a lot of intelligence on what you're interested in. And then there's ways to kind of, from a insight perspective, determine where you are in that journey, whether it's your four. First time as a purchase, you're a current customer and you're interested in purchasing something else. So it gives us a lot of insight into that, so that I can message you or I also know when should sales place a phone call to you and start that conversation. So that's why we use the term digital exhaust, because, again, it's a lot of what we do and how we use our customer data. Michael Hingson  25:20 Several years ago, I watched a 60 Minutes program, gosh, I don't know it's actually a number of years ago. And one of the segments there was a guy who was on he was a private detective, and what he said was, I can tell more about you than most anyone else can simply by looking at your trash. And in fact, I can't remember if it was Mike Wallace or not. Who was the interviewer, but they went on investigated some trash cans and and this guy could just tell you so much about your entire life just by looking at what was in the trash can. It was really pretty amazing and and I don't mean that in any way as a negative thing, but it's very clever that people have that insight. So I appreciate what you're saying about digital exhaust. It makes perfect sense. Carlos Hidalgo  26:17 Well, good. I'm glad it does. It means we've hit the mark. I'm not I will say this. I'm not going to go through my customers trash, but I am not surprised that if you did how much you could learn about somebody, 100% but Michael Hingson  26:30 you do look at their their digital footprint and so again, and it makes perfect sense that you can learn so much that can help you, help them grow. Yes, absolutely gives incredible insight. You talk about making growth simple, tell me more about what that means. Carlos Hidalgo  26:51 Yeah, you know, I've been in the space a long time, and that really came a couple years ago. We started seeing different models that would come up different frameworks that would come out from different vendors. Started talking, you know, I talked to a lot of chief marketing officers in my role, and over and over, what we saw was just complexity of taking terms that everybody would know and applying a new term or creating a new term to replace the old term, because you wanted to stay edgy. And I finally had a CMO who said to me, this is all so complex. Is there any any organization out there, or any way to just make this simple? And I thought, Gee, I kind of been thinking the same thing, because I see all these talking heads out there on LinkedIn and at these conferences showing these overly complex, overly engineered models, and I'm like, You got to be a PhD to implement that thing. And again, I'm also a pretty simple guy. I don't think growth needs to be all that hard if you know your customer, what they need, when they need it, and why it's important to them. I'm going to be able to sell you quite a bit. I'm also going to be able to be a better marketing, better partner to you, because I'll be the first one to be able to tell you you don't need that, or you need that, but you shouldn't get it from us, and here's why. And so we just started saying, You know what? Let's create with our models. And we have models and we have frameworks, but we want them to be kind of what Apple is, right, really innovative, where you can use it. You don't necessarily have to have someone to guide you through it. And so let's just make it as simple as possible for our clients to grow their companies without these over engineered models, which mostly a lot of them are created to sell stuff. And while we want to sell stuff more, so we want to help customers be better at what they do. And so that's why we say is we want to help you make growth simple, cut through the clutter, get to what matters and move forward. Michael Hingson  28:58 Yeah, which makes a lot of sense. By by any standard, how do you find storytelling comes into what you do and how you interact with customers? Carlos Hidalgo  29:11 Yeah, it's really important in the beginning, right in the beginning stages. Anytime I'm engaging with you, if I'm a consumer and you're a brand, I want to your brand should tell a story about who you are, the value that the customer gets when they're going to interact with you, they're going to use your product, what you stand for. Can they trust you? Trust is huge. Right now. We live in a trust economy. I want to know that if you say something, I can you're going to stand behind it. So all of those things are come through in terms of story. Now, what I've always said is I think that story is important. But when it comes to now, especially in the world I live in business to business, once I get into maybe I want to purchase something for you or purchase your product. Now I. Moves from a story to a dialog because I started, I start need, needing to know, what are you interested in? What are your challenges? What are your needs, what are your pain points? And as you're telling me that I can respond more in a conversation, I can still use parts of the story, but now it's a two way dialog, even in a digital world. So if I can create that, that's fantastic, then you become my customer. And now I still want to keep telling you stories. I want to tell you a story about why you can trust us. I tell you a story about how I interact with you. I tell you a story about how I deliver service and how I help you onboard. So all that bleeds into what we call, you know, what I call the big customer experience, from brand engagement to what I'm buying to now that I become a customer, all of those are experiential factors that we have to consider. Michael Hingson  30:49 Well, yeah, and I think that storytelling is a very significant part of selling and sales, because it's part of what really helps create the trust, because people can see through it, if you're just blowing smoke or playing games. Carlos Hidalgo  31:05 Yes, they can absolutely. And you only get one shot if that's what you're gonna do only, yeah, once I realized that forget it, I'm not coming back, that brand loyalty is away real quick. Michael Hingson  31:16 Yeah. So do you encounter in the interactions that you have with people with a lot of burnout or who are going that way. Carlos Hidalgo  31:25 Oh yeah. It's, it's something that I went through in 2016 it's, it's a, I mean, the World Health Organization, whatever you think about them, they definitely have listed it as a illness or as a condition. So it's something that I've seen. It's something that I've written against quite a bit. I don't think we need to get there, but I also think it is part of the consequence, or the outcome of when we make work center of our universe, and we make work our God, when that's going to happen then, yeah, you're going to experience burnout. And I think burnout comes in different flavors, but I see a lot of people who are going through it, trying to work through it, trudge through it. I heard the term the other day, manage burnout. I don't know why you would want to manage burnout. I think you need to take steps to avoid burnout, to avoid it. Michael Hingson  32:17 Yeah, why is it so many people face it, and are experiencing burnout is because they just deal with work, they don't relax, or what. Carlos Hidalgo  32:27 Well, I think there's a lot, lot in that. I've done a lot of study, and that was the topic of some of the topic of my book that I released in 2019 the UN American dream is, I think we, especially in our Western culture, we have adopted this idea that the busier I am, the more important, the more valuable I am, and so and the reality is, none of us are well wired to go, go, go, go, go. Rest is actually a gift from the Lord. And you know, I think very few of us. But you know, think about the last time you talked to anybody. How are you? Oh, I'm so busy. We love to be busy. We love to have jam packed calendars, because it makes us feel good. The other part of it is when you think about workaholism, you know, that is an addiction. And the only time in my experience, we engage with or become addicted to something, it's when we're trying to avoid something else. And so think our workaholism, which leads to burnout, is right up there with our rising rates of anxiety, of depression, of loneliness, because we have bought a false narrative that if we go, go go, we jam pack our calendars, we work like and work like crazy until we hit some imaginary number or we can call it quits. That's what life is all about. And I just sit there and you know, my number one question to people who are running that race is, how's it working for you? You don't seem really happy right now, you don't seem fulfilled, and you're living on the promise of some day and some days, not a day in the week, right? Michael Hingson  34:03 I People ask me, How are you all the time? And my response is something actually that I borrowed from somebody else. I just say, I'm lovely. Yeah, I get lots of reactions from that. It's kind of cute, but it's great. You know, I I agree with you, there is a there's a need and a time, and it's appropriate to not work all the time. Yes, we we don't ever take time even just to sit and think about what we did today. We don't take time at the end of the day to go in our own brains. How did this work out? How did that work out? Why didn't this work? Why did this work? What could I do to make it better and then listen for answers? It's like praying. So many people, when they pray to God, they pray to Jesus and so on. They spend all their time praying and saying what they want, never realizing God all. And he knows that, yeah, when are you going to start listening for answers and really listening? And that's, that's the challenge that I see so often people don't listen, and the answers are always there. They're in their inner the the inner voice that they can hear if they but practice well. Carlos Hidalgo  35:17 And I think to part of that is you need to be still, right? And we see that in scripture where we're told be still and know that I am God, if I mean there, there. We have so much noise and so much input with our phones and constant, you know, interaction and constant noise. We don't give ourselves the ability to sit and think and process, to just to be still. And that is something that I would say, really, for me, over the last decade, has come into focus of I enjoy my downtime. I enjoy the silence that I it's one of the reasons when I run, I don't run with headphones. In my own little world, in my head, praying, thinking about things. There are times I'll drive in the car without the radio on, just in silence, and I tell people, then they look at me like, I have three heads. Yeah, I'm like, oh, it's I am so much better for it, because I'm no longer living life reactively. I'm able to live life in a way that brings me a lot of peace, a lot of joy, a lot of happiness. And when I work, I work really, really hard, but it's definitely not the center of my universe. Michael Hingson  36:27 I know people think I'm crazy, but I can go days without looking well, not days. I'll go a day. I do it volitionally, but I can go quite a while without looking at text messages, and when I do, their message is there sometimes, but I know that I could actually go for a considerable length of time without needing to carry my phone around. Now, the only reason I do carry it around, I mean, clearly some phone calls can come in and so on, but I use other tools on it that you have access to in other ways. So I use it for those things. But the bottom line is, is that I don't need to have this phone with me to stay in touch with people all the time. So if I carry my phone more often than not, I will be in a hotel room listening to something on the phone and, sure, relaxing, rather than all the other things that one could do with it well. Carlos Hidalgo  37:25 And the number of people that I talked to and research shows this that, you know, the last I saw was over 60% it's the first thing people do when they wake up is they reach over and look at their phone and I say, sit there and say, What is so important that you can't even wait 15 minutes from the time your eyes open. But we've become addicted. We've come addicted to the noise, to the constant, go, go, go. And then, you know, we have a friend of ours last year was just, I'm so busy. I'm so busy. Told my wife, over the next three months, I only have this one day I can do lunch. And then you start realizing, like, Well, really, that's, that's how you want to live your life over the next 90 days, you only have one day. Now, I didn't believe it when I heard that. I don't think they were trying to make excuse, and I don't think lying. I think in their heads, they really had this belief of, oh, I can. I've only got one day out of the next 90, but we've weed ourselves into believing that this is how we should be living life. Yeah, and it's not how I want to live life. I'll work hard, I'll put everything I've got into my clients and my business and things like that, but I don't want to be that strapped. I was that strapped one time, time wise and work wise, and it made me absolutely miserable. Mm, hmm. Michael Hingson  38:45 I know when I wake up in the morning I do reach for my phone right at the beginning. One of the very first things that I do is reach for it to see what the temperature is outside, to see what the temperature is your house, to see whether I want to turn the heater on, you know, but I don't look at messages. I don't need to do that. I'll do it eventually, but, you know, I So, as I say, I use it for other tools, but I use the phone, because that's the tool that's available to me that gives me that information, and it'll help me decide, do I want to turn the heater on, or do I want to turn the air conditioner off? And that's what I do. And then I put the phone down, and I start visiting with the dog and the cat, and we have conversations which is, which is kind of fun, Carlos Hidalgo  39:29 but yeah, you get to enjoy life. Michael Hingson  39:32 I remember, remember the old technology town? Now it's old Blackberry. Oh yeah, the black and Research In Motion. There was one night when Research In Motion lost communications with all of the blackberries, and every BlackBerry went dead, I think, for about 12 hours. But I heard that even during the time when that occurred, people committed suicide because they had no way to look at their blackberries. And. Get information. And I always thought you're that dependent, that you can't cope for a while, especially at night without that information. Carlos Hidalgo  40:09 Come on. Yeah, it's staggering. The number of, again, over 50% of people said that they would be panicked if they want an app without their phones and so and again, I used to, I used to live that way. So I understand it to a degree, but, well, I understand it. Yeah, I also tell people you don't have to live that way, because people i The people I know who live that way, don't seem very content or fulfilled, right, right? Which is really the issue, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely, because we only go, we only get one shot at this life, and I want to make the most of it. Michael Hingson  40:43 Make growth simple. Carlos Hidalgo  40:46 That's right, personal, personal and business wise, right? Michael Hingson  40:49 Personal and business wise. So what is hustle culture? Carlos Hidalgo  40:54 Well, hustle culture has been promoted by a lot of folks, a whole lot more well known that I am, you know, where Kevin O'Leary for Shark Tank, Shark Tank talks about, you got to be willing to work eight days a week, you know, and give everything you've got, you know. Gary Vaynerchuk talks about, you know, go, go, go, go. And, you know, we just see it out there of this, you've got to be willing to go above and beyond. If you want to have success, if you want to make this money, you've got to just make sure you're willing to hustle at all costs, which to me, there's a place for that. As I said, when I'm working I hustle. I work hard. I get in a zone. I kind of block everything out and and there are some weeks where we require over and above it. You know, 16 or a week is is not something that has never been done. But the difference is, there's a couple of differences. Is I'm going to work hard because that's what I'm told to do. In Scripture, it says that with everything you do, do it with all your might and do it to the glory of glory of the Lord. So I'm going to do that. Plus work was one of the first things that God ever created. He told Adam in the garden, I want you to work now, what we also see is that it was cursed when man sinned, and it was part of the curse in the garden. But I do believe work is noble. I believe it's valuable, I believe it has so many things that can teach us. So I'm working. I'm hustling hard when I'm working, but this idea that I need to give everything I have to my business so that I'm successful. Well, what about our relationships? What about our own our last word, too, right? Our own physical health? What about my marriage? All of these things that require work yet, you know, you got a guy like Grant Cardone talking about 95 hour work weeks. That's insanity. Yeah, at what point, you know, so to me, I really believe, and I've had some people who've argued with me over this. If you want to know what the object of your affection is, show me where you're spending the most time and attention. And it's not time or attention, time and attention, right? I cannot. I cannot be, quote, unquote, working, but I can be with my wife, but my brain is working. My brain is thinking about my work, thinking about my business, thinking about my career. So what good is it to her if I'm there or not? Yeah, I'm not investing in that relationship, and that is just as much work as anything else. And I would I would say the rewards are better and the gratification that much deeper. So can work life balance actually be attained? I don't believe in work life balance. I believe in boundaries, and maybe I'm splitting hairs, but when I see that, over 70% of people say that work life balance is unachievable. It tells me it doesn't exist. It's also the only place in our lives where we talk we try to separate work from life. Nobody talks about finance life, business, kids life, business, marriage life, business. But we talk about work life balance. Now I understand we spend a lot of time at work in our modern day culture, but if I can decide that I'm going to put boundaries around the things that matter most to me, so like work, like my relationships, like my physical, mental and emotional health, my spiritual health, and that's how I've started to live life. Is instead of trying to balance everything, I'm going to set boundaries. So what does that look like? Well, the first thing I do in the morning is not check the phone. I get up, I pray. I have coffee with my wife. Sometimes we have really deep conversations. Sometimes we look just let the caffeine kick in and let it wake up, and then we set time in prayer. So every day, pretty much between 815 and 830 I'm at my desk ready to work, but I've put a boundary around that morning time, which allows me to start the time with with my Bible and with my wife from 830 To about 1230 I'm locked in. I am working. There's a boundary around there's a boundary. And then about 1230 to one, about two o'clock, that's my workout. Either go to the gym or I go for a run, come home, make my protein stuff, and then I'm back working again. And so and then when I'm done work, between 530 and six, I shut it down. Work is over, and now it's my personal life again, and whatever that looks like, and some of that is seasonal, because of where I live, in the summer, it'll get stay light till 930 and the winter, it gets dark by 430 there's quite a disparity. But because I have those boundaries, I know that I'm able to bring the best of myself to each of those areas of my life, and that is far easier than balance. And when one of those boundaries needs to move, I get to have a conversation. Hey, I've got a call tonight overseas. Or do we have anything? Are we good if I take this call at 730 at night? So I take the call at 730 at night, but I have that discussion, and it's it takes more effort to move a boundary, takes very little effort to get knocked off balance. Michael Hingson  46:05 Yeah, and I think that makes perfect sense. I know for me, when Karen was here, we we enjoyed breakfast and we enjoyed dinner, and I think there's a lot of value in that. Now, I was always the earlier riser, but partly because I worked for companies that kind of required that. That is to say I worked, for example, when I lived in the east for California companies. So I ended up being there later. But when I worked in the West, calling the east, I had to be in work by six, because that's what I needed to do. But we agreed on that, and I hear exactly what you're saying. The fact of the matter is that you've got to really make some decisions, but if you're in a relationship, then you both have to agree and make the decisions together, which is what really should happen 100% Carlos Hidalgo  46:58 and those boundaries will change. I mean my boundaries now that I'm an empty nester, you know, had I lived this way 15 years ago, would have looked far different because I still had children at home. And so the boundaries can shift and change. But to your point, you have to talk about that. And what I have come to believe is that if I'm making those decisions in regards to my business, my job, my career, and I'm not having the conversation with my significant other, then I'm not I'm not sacrificing anything. I'm just selfish. And yet, what we see is, Oh, you got to sacrifice for your business. I've said to couples before, if you and your wife believe and want to say, hey, we want to go build this thing and we want to go sell it so we know the next five years we're hardly going to see each other, and we're both on board with that, and this is what we want. Go in peace. I think you're nuts, but Go in peace, but still, you made the decision together. That's right, and that's the difference. And I find that a lot of people do not do that, and I also think it adds to the stress and the loneliness and the anxiety and the depression is because we're chasing something that is so fleeting, and no matter what Empire we may build professionally, we can't take it with us, right? Michael Hingson  48:13 And that's something that I wish more people would truly realize. It would make for a much happier world. Carlos Hidalgo  48:21 It would. But the unfortunate part is, until the pain and consequence of how you're living outweighs the fear of change, most likely you're never going to do anything different, right? 48:31 So tell me, Carlos Hidalgo  48:32 oh, go ahead. No. Oh, okay, tell me about the Michael Hingson  48:36 title of the book, the UN American Dream. Where did that come from? And why did you name the book that, why was that the title? And so on, Carlos Hidalgo  48:42 yeah, and so in 2016 is when I informed the company that I had started with my brother 11 years earlier that I was stepping down. Didn't really know what that looked like. I literally just one day, through the help of a friend and God's good grace, decided that it was time for me to go. And so the way they wanted to handle it in end of the year, and I think this was like end of October ish, when I made that decision, they said, You know what, let's not announce anything. We don't want our clients to get spooked in q4 so let's wait until the turn of the the new year. So that was into 2017 so I made a post, and I published it in February, 2017 about why I was leaving the company, some of the things that I was learning along the way. And what surprised me was the phone calls and emails I got from colleagues who said, Hey, I just read your post. Can we talk? I'm kind of thinking about the same thing. I'm miserable. And it was one email in particular that still stands out, where he said, I'm miserable. I started to think like, wow, okay, this, this is not just me. My circumstances were different. But this seems to be a problem, so I started to just do some research on our obsession with work, the number of hours we work, this idea of balance and hustle culture. Really immersed myself in it, and I thought this isn't what Truslow Adams meant when he coined the term the American dream. We're killing ourselves for what like, for What's the objective here to just add another zero to my bank account. So as I started to do that research, I saw myself and a lot of that same story, and the mistakes I made and how I was, you know, I had put my business first all the things that we've talked about. And I thought, Man, this is really quite un American, really, because we say we're the land of the free and the home of the brave, but we're not free if we're slaves to our company or our jobs or our careers. So I thought, You know what? I think what we're doing to ourselves is un American, and we're chasing the UN American dream, and that's how I came up with the title, Michael Hingson  51:05 who have been some of your greatest influencers? Carlos Hidalgo  51:09 Wow, I have had a lot. Obviously, my parents have been huge influences in my life. My mom is a fierce prayer warrior, and so I fervently believe I would not be where I'm at today if it wasn't for her and her faithfulness and that and my dad is it has been in marketing and sales and advertising. So learned a lot from him, just in life, and then also in business. There's a gentleman who lives up the street who is kind of like a second dad to me, it's an interesting relationship, because his son is also my best friend, but gentleman by the name of Keith Vander wheel who is salt of the earth, wise, just a wise, wise man has loved me, has when needed, given me a swift kick in the rear end, and just really helped keep keep me focused, and been one of these guys that I can go to, and it's a little about almost 20 years older than I am, so he's one that has seen more and done more. So I'm thankful for that. And then I am very fortunate to have about three or four very, very dear, dear friends, close friends, I mentioned one, Keith's son, who spur me on to greater things, encourage me when necessary, rebuke me and help me. And then I would say, more than anything, my wife, I learned stuff from her each and every day, her steadfastness, Her Grace, her strength of character, she is absolutely the strongest person I know, and has been the biggest influence in my life. Michael Hingson  52:45 I when I was in college, did radio, and I've always liked comedy. I've always liked trying to be a little bit flip and so on, yep. But I will tell you that my wife constantly amazed me. She was pretty much a lot more straight faced and straight laced than i But when she came out with a zinger, it came out of left field, and you never saw coming. She was amazing. Clearly, she observed me a whole lot more than I thought she did, right? Carlos Hidalgo  53:18 And what a gift that is to have. My wife and I were just, we went out for brunch today, with it being the holiday, and I just, I told her, I said, I just love how much we laugh. Yeah, what a gift that is to have in your marriage. We're just laughing together and laughing at each other in a way that's not demeaning, but appreciates our differences. And you know, we can tease each other and enjoy it and know it comes from a place of love, yeah. Michael Hingson  53:42 How do we deal with the epidemic of loneliness in our lives and in our world? Carlos Hidalgo  53:48 Wow, that's a great question. It's first of all, I think it's heartbreaking. I see this especially with men. And statistics would show that that men especially struggle with loneliness. I think number one is we have to come to the realization we were not meant to live in isolation. We are communal beings. God created us to live in community, and we need to step into that. And part of that is letting your guard down and being vulnerable and letting people know where you struggle. Now I'm not talking about wearing your heart on your sleeve and walking right every stranger and spilling, but those closest of relationships, and I can say, you know, for me, when I isolated, that's when I became the worst form of myself and went to places I never thought I would go. And so I think loneliness, first of all, get off social media and your phone, because that's not a connection. No, your friends, all of your 1000s of friends on Facebook, are not true friends. They're people, you know, but they're not people that are going to walk with you through some of the hardest times of your lives, and so find those. Group, find that community, whether it's your church, whether it's a small group that you take part in, whether it's people at your work, but really start to invest in those relationships and bring as much to it as you're expecting them to. And for me, it became just with those closest relationships. I'm an open book. I'm not going to BS. I'm going to talk about what's on my heart, what I'm struggling with, what my victories are, what my low points are. And for me, that starts with my spouse. As I mentioned, I've got three other men in my life that are around my age that I can confide in, be open with, and it's the most freeing, wonderful thing, and it's their relationships that I cherish, and I think that's how we end this cycle of loneliness. But I think a lot of people have been duped. Well, I'm on I've got a bunch of friends online, yeah, you know, put the phone down, get off your social media platform and go be human and interact with other people. Michael Hingson  56:01 It gets back to the same thing we talked about earlier. There's a whole big difference between head knowledge and really knowing. And the friends who are truly your friends are people who you know and who know you and that you can truly be honest with and who will be honest with you. And that is not something that you get from all those Facebook friends. Otherwise, you're being awfully silly, right? Carlos Hidalgo  56:23 And I also think we have to get out of this idea in our culture that if I don't affirm you, I somehow don't like you anymore, this idea that tolerance and love are the same thing. Some of my closest friends have been some of the ones that have come to me and said, Hey, here's what we've observed, and we're sure you don't like that about you, and you know this needs to change. And I love that. I love that I friends who will call my stuff and a wife who will say to me, this isn't the best you like what's going on here? I need that in my life, because if all I want to do is have people pat me on the back and affirm me. I'm going to get entitled pretty quick. Yeah, and that doesn't help at all. Right? How do we bring civil discourse to our society? We're in an environment and in a world where we just don't appreciate or have conversations anymore. How do we deal with that? Well, I think a couple of things. First of all, I think we have to get back to an appreciation for and a respect for human life and humanity in general. Michael, I'm sure if you and I spent a few hours together, we would eventually land on a topic that we don't just that we don't agree on. I can be okay with that, and because if I'm open to say, Hey, Michael is a human being. He's smart. He's overcome incredible odds in his life, and maybe if I listen, I can learn something. Doesn't mean I'm going to come to your side of the the position, but I can at least learn something. But I think systematically, over decades, we've been denigrating the the value of human life. I mean, how many millions of babies have we aborted in this country? You know, your your own story, your parents were told, hey, just put him in a home. He's not going to amount to anything because of his blindness. That's insanity, you know. So today, instead of civil discourse, if I don't like you, I berate you online, I make something up about you, or I kill you. And right so and to tell you how far we've gone, not only does that happen, but then we're gonna have people who celebrate in the murder of whether it's an insurance CEO or a Charlie Kirk, or anybody, and I just sit there and say, Okay, we've we've gotten so far right civil discourse. And so I think number one is just a respect and a value for human life, which we have a lot of work to do there. And then number two, again, back to what I said, this idea that if I disagree with you, I somehow don't love you anymore. And the example I use is this idea of, well, you need we need more tolerance and affirmation. There was a time Michael where my behavior within our marriage just was unacceptable. I mean, I was cheating on my wife, and once she found out she still loved me, but she couldn't tolerate the behavior for reasons that I think I need to explain. So at that point, you say, All right, well, how do those two things work together? If I had kept doing what I was doing, I know for 100% she would have loved me till the day she died, but she died, but she wouldn't have been able to stay with me, because you can't tolerate that behavior. She's supposed to affirm that. And so this idea that because I quote, unquote, love you, I affirm you, I actually make the case that if I love you, I'm going to help you be the best form of yourself, which sometimes means disagreeing with you and pointing things out in your life. That are unhealthy, that's fair. So I think we have to get back to that place of we can have disagreement, still have respect for each other. We can disagree vehemently and still do it respectfully, right? And then at the end of the day, I can respect your position because of who you are as a person, and that you know, giving you the benefit of the doubt. This is a well thought out position. And so, okay, great. We agree to disagree. We can still be friends, yeah? Michael Hingson  1:00:27 And we might learn something, or at least be put on a path where we think about it, and we may discover that, oh, that person's right, correct, yeah, which is Carlos Hidalgo  1:00:36 cool, yeah, and it's not that hard. And again, no, do your do your homework. Know what the real issues are, and stop reading headlines on social media. Michael Hingson  1:00:46 Yeah, really, get away from that. What else should we know about you? Carlos Hidalgo  1:00:50 Well, I'm the father of four amazing kids spread all over the country, ages 30 to 20. He'll be 24 in 10 days, and then an amazing daughter in law, soon to be daughter in law, my second son is engaged, gets married next year. I love the outdoors, anything outside. And I would say, if I want your audience to remember anything, it's that what Jesus Christ has done in my life has been nothing short of amazing. And like I said at the beginning, this is my operating system, and it's who I am and my reason for being in each and every day. And I sit here and I just am in awe of the life I get to live. So I'm very, very thankful and very, very humbled by it all. Michael Hingson  1:01:36 If people want to reach out to you and maybe explore working with your company, using your company to help them. How do they do that? Carlos Hidalgo  1:01:43 Yeah, you can email me at Carlos at Digital exhaust.co it's not.com so make sure it.co's or I won't get it. So you can shoot me an email visit our website, which is digital exhaust.co or looked me up on LinkedIn, just Carlos adalgo, H, I, D, A, L, G, O, right. That is correct. Yeah. I appreciate you getting the name right on the introduction. So thank you for that. I worked at it well. Michael Hingson  1:02:12 I want to thank you for being here. This has been wonderful. And as I tell people all the time, if I'm not learning at least as much as anybody else on this podcast, and I'm not doing my job well, which means I do need to listen and think about it. And I appreciate all the insights that you gave us today, and I appreciate all of you being here and being with Carlos and me. Love to get your thoughts. Please reach out to Carlos. Please email me at Michael H i, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, but most of all, wherever you're listening or watching the pod podcast, please give us a five star review and a rating. We love that. We love your your input, please. Of course, I want it always to be positive, but I'll take whatever you send because we we value that. And for all of you and Carlos, you as well, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on the podcast. We'd love it if you'd let us know we're always looking to meet more people to help show that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. And with that, I want to thank you again, Carlos, for being here. This has been absolutely fun. Carlos Hidalgo  1:03:13 Michael, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed it. Michael Hingson  1:03:20 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Great marketing does not start with your product. It starts with your customer. In this conversation, I speak with marketing strategist Scott Hornstein about why storytelling, customer research, and trust are the real drivers behind successful brands. Scott shares lessons from decades in marketing, including his work with IBM and major technology launches, and explains how companies often fail when they focus on themselves instead of the people they serve. You will hear how listening to the voice of the customer can reshape messaging, build trust, and unlock growth. Scott also reflects on entrepreneurship, resilience, family, and the mindset required to get back up after setbacks. I believe you will find this conversation both practical and encouraging as you think about how relationships and trust shape business success. Highlights: · Creativity in Queens – Scott reflects on how music and culture shaped his early creativity.04:10 · From Literature to Marketing – His love of books leads him toward storytelling and marketing.12:57 · Learning to Experiment – A mentor teaches the value of trying ideas and learning from failure.20:46 · The Customer as the Hero – Scott explains why marketing must center on the customer.31:48 · Customer Insight Drives Messaging – Research helps reshape a company’s message and market entry.41:23 · Resilience Through Setbacks – Scott reflects on perseverance in life and business.50:59 Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: I currently live in Reston VA, my wife and I having moved there to be close to our 2 daughters and our 2 granddaughters. I am an independent business consultant specializing in storytelling – which embraces marketing, research, and content. Family is the most important thing in my life and it has taught me that lasting relationships, business and personal, are steeped in empathy and commitment. I was born in Manhattan on July 25, 1950. My parents soon moved the family to the up-and-coming borough of Queens. I attended the public schools in and around Forest Hills.  Writing was always my goal. I graduated NYU as an English major.  Upon graduation I traveled, then pursued my (naïve) dream of living as an artist – as a writer, an actor, and a musician. I wrote plays for the brand-new cable industry, wrote for a movie-making magazine, was in several off-off Broadway plays, worked as a pick-up musician. I helped in the office for a former professor to earn subway money. Got tired of starving to death. Took a job with CBS in the Broadcast Center, pulling together the Daily Log for the local station. Then, got hired to answer Bill Paley’s mail. Then, I was hired as a marketing manager for Columbia House where I got some of the best advice – keep going. I met this guy from my neighborhood while commuting to my job in Manhattan. Turns our he worked for Y\&R and said they were looking for someone. I interviewed and jumped over to agency-side work as an Account Executive, then Account Supervisor, then, going back to my roots, copywriter and eventually Creative Director. The entrepreneurial life has been a roller coaster, but I have been blessed to work with some brilliant people in marketing and sales, and some great companies. It allowed me to understand how I can really help my customers become successful in the long-term. Ways to connect with Scott**:** LinkedIn Medium www.hornsteinassociates.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hi everyone, and welcome once again to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. Our guest is Scott Hornstein, although when he came into the Zoom Room, I said, is it Hornstein or Hornstein? And of course, he also understood, because we're both of the same age, and are both fans of Young Frankenstein, who always said that his name was really pronounced Frankenstein. But you know, you have to have to know Gene Wilder for that. But anyway, if you haven't seen that movie, you got to see it. Mel Brooks at his best, but Scott is a marketing person and specializes a lot in storytelling, which fascinates me a lot, because I am a firm believer in storytelling, and I know we're going to have a lot of fun talking about that today. So Scott, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Scott Hornstein  02:20 Thank you so much, Michael. I have to start by saying I have great respect for your work, and this is really quite a privilege for me. Thank you very much. Michael Hingson  02:32 Well, thank you. You're a long way from where you were born, in New York, in Manhattan. Now you're in Reston, Virginia, but that's okay. Well, you're not that far. It's just a short train ride, a few hours. Scott Hornstein  02:41 I That's true. That's true, although with that particular train, you can never be sure exactly how long it's going to be good Michael Hingson  02:52 point, yeah, yeah, good point. It is one of the things one has to deal with. But that's okay. But, you know, I've taken that train many times, and I've taken the the Metro liner as well, and also just the regular train. And I like the trains. I enjoy the train. I wish we had more of them out here. Scott Hornstein  03:15 I do too. I when it a long time ago in business, when I had a client here in DC, and I was living in Connecticut, I started taking the train, and it was so superior to flying. Oh yeah. And then recently I was, as I was mentioning to you, I was in Germany and taking the trains there is just wonderful. It's so superior. Michael Hingson  03:47 Yeah, I wish we would have more of them out here. If I, for example, want to take a train to San Francisco from where I live in Victorville, the only way I can do it is to take a train at roughly four in the morning to Los Angeles and then transfer on a train to go to San Francisco, which is no fun. I'll fly because it's it's kind of crazy, but I like the trains, and wish we wish we had more of them all over, and wish more people would use them. It's a lot better than driving, and it's a lot more pleasant. When I lived in the east, there were any number of times that I knew people who would travel from like Bucks County in Pennsylvania to New York Wall Street people, and they would go two, two and a half hours on the train every day and back again. And they formed discussion groups or other sorts of things. They they made it a part of their regular day, and it was there was nothing to them to do that. Scott Hornstein  04:54 And to them, I say, God bless. I am not in love with commuting, right? Yeah. Michael Hingson  05:00 Well, I understand that. I appreciate that, but they, they did well with it, and so good for them, or, as I would say in Australia, good on them. But you know, well, why don't we start tell us a little bit about you, maybe growing up in the early Scott and all that stuff. Let's start with that, sure. Scott Hornstein  05:21 First one brief aside about Young Frankenstein when I was living in Connecticut, I would go to the theater in Stanford, and for one performance, my tickets were at the will call, so I went up to the ticket booth, gave them my name, and the woman be on the other side of the iron bars keeps throwing her head to the side, wanting me to look over to my left, and I finally look over to my left, and there's Gene Wilder. Oh my gosh. What an enormously tall individual, very gracious, very nice. In any case, yes, Michael Hingson  06:06 with him, did you? Did you talk with Scott Hornstein  06:09 him just for a moment, just for a moment, you know, just Mr. Wilder, how nice to meet you. And he said a couple of nice things. And that was about it. Still, we all went to see the to see the show. Still, it was quite a thrill for me. What show I do not. Oh, that was, oh, no, excuse me. That was the the madness of King Charles, madness of King George. King George. But he was quite mad, and the play is excellent, excellent. Well, anyway, in any case, I grew I was born in Manhattan. I spent the first couple of years of life on the west side. I don't remember much of that. But my parents quickly moved us out to Queens, which at that point was rather undeveloped. You could get a lot more for your money, and we have lived in an apartment building. And around our apartment building was nothing but empty lots. It was just not developed yet. But it was a great place to grow up because the there was so much going on in those years and so much so much music that was going on. The first recollection I have, in light of all the talk about vaccines and healthcare and all of this is I really remember that polio was a real thing there, and I remember kids with the braces on their legs. And I remember that when one of my friends got chicken pox, that the mothers would get us all together and have a play date so that we got chicken pox too. Okay, but it was, Michael Hingson  08:20 I'm sorry, remember, I remember getting the polio vaccinations, even starting in kindergarten, Scott Hornstein  08:24 yes, yes. And it was such a remarkable thing at that time. We all thought it was like a miracle. And, and Jonas Salk, I mean, he was like, such a hero, yeah. The other thing, so I, we were out in Queens, in an area that's the larger area is called Forest Hills, and it was, it was a great place, because the the whole museum, whole music scene was just exploding. So I'm moving on until my junior high school and high school years, and it was just all over the place. Yes, we were playing in bands, but also there were these wonderful venues to go to. And there was the subway. If my parents only knew where I really was, we would get on the subway, go down in the village, go to all the cafe bar Gertie spoke city, all these places to hear the this wonderful mind changing music. And by mind changing, I don't mean drugs. I mean mind changing that it was, it was just everything in life. Michael Hingson  09:57 And there's nothing like hearing a lot. Music, Scott Hornstein  10:01 even to this day, it's my very, very favorite thing to do. Yeah, and so many musicians and artists came out of that area. I not being one of them. But it was so exciting. Michael Hingson  10:27 I remember when we lived in New Jersey, and I would commute into New York. I heard, for example, even then, and it was in like 96 to beginning of 2002 Woody Allen on Monday night would play his clarinet somewhere. And less, less, Paul was still doing music and playing music at the meridian ballroom. And you can even take your guitar in and he would sign it for you Scott Hornstein  10:55 the it was Joe's Pub. Woody Allen would right. And I went there a couple of times to see him. Of course, it was so pricey that we had to kind of sneak in have one beer, yeah, Michael Hingson  11:16 but still, it was worth doing. Scott Hornstein  11:19 And then they Yeah, and they were great clubs. I think that was, there's certainly the blue note for jazz that I went to a lot. And then there in Times Square, there was iridium, which was where I was able to see Les Paul, right? And many of those greats. Michael Hingson  11:42 Yeah, I never did get to go and get my guitar signed, and now it's too late. But oh, well, do you play? I play at it more than anything else. My father, I think, even before the war, before World War Two, or somewhere around there anyway, he traded something and got a Martin grand concert guitar. Oh, still, I still have it. That's wonderful. What a wonderful sound it is. Scott Hornstein  12:15 What a wonderful story. Yes, I play as well. I And growing up very early on, I decided I wanted to be Ricky Nelson. Oh, there you go. But I quickly learned that I was not going to be Ricky Nelson. However, the guy that was standing behind him playing guitar, now that might be something that I could do. So yes, so I picked it up, and I played in all the bands and then, which quickly taught me that I was not cut out for rock and roll, that I wasn't very good at it, but it led me into many other avenues of music, certainly listening, certainly being part of that scene, I'd go see friends of mine who could play well rock and roll and And that was so exciting for me. And then I, I played in pickup bands through college. So on a weekend night there would be a wedding, Bar Mitzvah, and this guy, I forget his name, piano player, he he got all the gigs and Howie was the first choice for guitar, and if Howie wasn't available, they'd call me. Michael Hingson  13:47 There you go, hey. So second choice is better than no choice. Absolutely. Scott Hornstein  13:54 I i enjoyed it thoroughly and that they paid me money to do this. There you go, right, inconceivable to me. Michael Hingson  14:05 So what did you major in in college? Scott Hornstein  14:10 Well, I started off majoring in biology, and there you go. And why I chose biology is is a mystery to this day, it didn't last long. I cycled through a number of things, and I graduated with a degree in literature, in English, particularly American literature, which is not quite the same as learning a trade. But you know it, it was consistent with with who I was at that time. I was the guy who, if he went out the door, would have two books with him, just in case I finished one. I didn't want to be left at sea, so a voracious reader couldn't stay away from the theater. So it was very consistent with who I was and and it was good for me, because I think through things like like literature and fiction and biography, you learn so much about the world, about how different people are confronted with challenges, how they process their lives, how they overcome these challenges or not or not, it just exposes you to so much. Michael Hingson  15:49 Yeah, and so I'll bet you had some challenges finding some sort of real, permanent job after getting a degree in English? Scott Hornstein  16:03 Yes, I did. But when I got out the idea of it didn't cross my mind that people actually would not earn a great living by being just an artist. What did I want to do? I wanted to write. I wanted to be involved in music. I wanted to act. I did all these things until the point when I got thoroughly fed up with being poor, with not having a dime in my pocket. Ever starving to death is, is sort of what you would call it. Yeah, yeah. You know, I did. I have modest success. Yes, I was able to keep myself off the streets, but no, it was no way for a career. It was no way to even be able to afford your own apartment, for gosh sakes. So I from there i i had done a lot of promotion for the different things that I was involved in, trying to get audiences, trying to get awareness of what I was doing, and that led me to have some contacts inside of CBS. And when I started looking for a job, I started talking to these folks, and they offered me a job. So here I was, and actually gainfully employed. Michael Hingson  17:44 What was the job? Well, I Scott Hornstein  17:47 was sort of a gopher for my first job. Mostly what I did was type, but I do have one good story for you. So I was down in the depths of the CBS Broadcast Center, which is all the way on the west side of 5017 and it's an old milk factory, so which they had converted to broadcast purposes. And so there were long holes, and the halls would always slope down. And there was one day where I was late for a meeting, and I came running down the halls, and there are always these swinging doors, I guess, for in case there's a fire or something, and I'm bursting through the doors, and I go running, and I burst through the next set of doors, and I'm running, and I burst through the next set of doors, and I knock this guy right on his bum. I pick him up, I dust him off. I say, I am so sorry. He says, Don't worry about a thing. It's all fine. I continue running. A friend of mine grabs me and says, Did you see Paul Newman? Michael Hingson  19:10 There you are. Scott Hornstein  19:12 So I have the unique entry on my resume of knocking Paul Newman to the ground. Michael Hingson  19:22 I Well, at least he was civil and nice about it. Scott Hornstein  19:26 He was very nice about it, though. Yeah, so I worked there and then through my writing, because I was writing for a film magazine at night, which, of course, didn't pay a cent, not a cent, but I got to go to all the premiers, and I got to meet all the people and interview all the people so whatever. So through that, I was able to go over to the main building and answer letters for Bill Paley, who was the. Michael Hingson  20:00 Chairman, Chairman, I said, Yes, right, Scott Hornstein  20:02 and it was my job to explain to everybody why Mr. Paley, I never called him, Bill, never, nobody, no, no, why he was right and they were wrong. That was my job, and that I did that for a little while, I can honestly say that I enjoyed having money in my pocket, but that was not the most fulfilling of jobs, and from there, I was able to go over and get my first marketing position, working for the Columbia record and tape Club, which was part of CBS Records at that time. And when I Ben or Dover was the president of Columbia House at that time, and when he made me the offer, he gave me one of the great life lessons that I've I've ever had. And he said, Scott, if you sit in your office and you do exactly what I ask you to do, and you do it on time, and you do it perfectly, we are not going to get along. But if you are out there and you're trying this and you're trying that, and this works, and that doesn't work, but you get up and you keep trying, we're going to be fast friends. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. That's something that has stayed with me my whole life. One of the great pieces of advice that I've ever gotten, Michael Hingson  21:57 well the for me, what's fascinating about it is thinking about how many people would really do that and allow that to happen, but it's really what more people should be doing. I've I've always maintained that the biggest problem with bosses is that they boss people around too much, rather than encouraging them and helping them and using their own talents to help people be more creative. When I hire sales people, the first thing I always told them was, well, the second thing because the first thing I always told them was, you need to understand right up front if you're going to sell here, you have to learn to turn perceived liabilities into assets. And that's got a story behind it. But the second thing that I always talked about was my job isn't to boss you around. I hired you because you convinced me that you're supposed to be able to do the job, and we'll see how that goes. But you should be able to but my job is to work with you to figure out how I can use my talents to help you and to enhance what you do to make you more successful. And the people who got that did really well, because we usually did things differently, and we both learned how to figure out and actually figure out how to work with each other and be very successful. But the people who didn't get it and wouldn't try that, generally, weren't all that successful. Scott Hornstein  23:26 Not terribly surprised, sir. You know, I think that people miss the the humanity of all this. And that if we bring our respective strengths and work together, that it's going to be a more complete and more successful whole than if I try and dominate you and tell you what to do, right, just that hasn't been a successful formula for me. I have never done well with people who tried to tell me exactly what to do, which is probably why I went out on my own. Probably why, in the greater scheme of things that I I did well, working for people from Columbia House. I met this guy on the train, and we got friendly, and he said he worked for an advertising agency, and they were looking for somebody would I be interested in interviewing? And this was with the young and Rubicon. And I did get the job, and I did work my way up to an account supervisor. And then i i said, i. Hate this, and I went back to be a copywriter and worked my way up to be a creative director. But, you know, I went on my own on January 1 of 86 and it was like a liberation for me, because at that point there was a new a new president of the division that I worked for, and he was not a nurturing individual. He was more of the dominant kind of you'll do what I tell you to do. Didn't sit well with me at all, and I had the opportunity to go on my own. So I I packed up my dolls and dishes, and I walked in on January 2, and I said, Bill, I quit. Michael Hingson  26:02 There you go. Was it hard for you to do that? Scott Hornstein  26:11 You know, at that point? So I here I am. I'm a creative director. I got the office on Madison Avenue, and I'm doing freelance all over the place, not only because it was extra money, but because it was it was fueling my creativity. It was giving me something back. It was fun. And I really like to have fun. I have so much fun working with people and that interaction that that humanity, the spark of humanity. So I was doing a lot of freelance, and I wrote this proposal for this one design group who was near where I was living at that time, and it got sold. So they said, Do you want to you want to work on it? And at that point in my life, I didn't have any responsibilities. I had a studio apartment there that was real cheap. And I said, If I don't try this now, yeah, I don't think I'll ever try it. So that's what I did. I quit, and I walked out the door into the great unknown, Michael Hingson  27:39 and the entrepreneurial spirit took over. Scott Hornstein  27:43 It did, and it worked well for about six, seven months, and then we got to the summertime, and I couldn't get arrested for a while. But you know, you have to take it one day at a time. And I figured, all right, well, let's just be open and network and see what's going on. It's not the time to quit. It's not the time to go back and get a job. And I was fortunate in that I was sitting at the desk one day, and this one guy called me, and I had met him before his folks ran one of the biggest, or actually the biggest, telemarketing agency in New York at that time, and I had met, met this fellow, and he said, I got this project. I've been asking around for creative source, and three people gave me your name. So I figured, well, let's go talk. And that turned into a very, very good situation for me, it gave me a lot of responsibility and a lot of leeway to take all the things that I had learned and put them in service of my client and I had a ball. I loved it. The only thing I didn't love was the and I did love this for a while was the constant travel. Now, everybody doesn't travel, and they're all sitting in their rooms at home, looking at screens. But that was that was a great opportunity for me to to spread my wings and to take and I learned so much one of the. Initial assignments I had was for IBM and IBM at that time was, was Mount Olympus. Oh my gosh, working for IBM, and I worked in tandem with this research group. We were all working on the introduction of the IBM ThinkPad and what these folks, they had a methodology they called voice of customer research, which was a qualitative research we're talking to decision makers from a carefully prepared Interview Guide to come up with the attitudes, the insights that we could put together to to come up with a solution. And I was fascinated by this of how to tap into what what the customer really wants by talking to the customer. How unusual. Michael Hingson  31:16 What a concept. Oh yeah. I mean Scott Hornstein  31:19 then and now, it's still the operative phrase of this would be a wonderful business, business, if it wasn't for all those annoying customers and and this just turned that on its head. That's another thing that I learned that has stayed with me through my entire career, is that for the the storytelling, and what I mean by storytelling is, is two things. Is, first, you know all your stories are going to come from what you consider to be your brand, but if you're not developing your brand according to the wants, the needs, the desires, the expressed future state that your Customers want, then then you're wide of the mark. So I was able to bring this in, and I think do a much better job for my customers. Now, the way that relates into storytelling is that you're you're able to take what you do and put it into the story of how your customer succeeds with the hero in the hero's journey, is Michael Hingson  32:55 your customer, your customer? Why do you think that is such a successful tactic to use, Scott Hornstein  33:02 because everybody else is completely enamored of themselves. When other companies craft their their brand, it's mostly because why they think they are special and what their vision tells them is their future. And quite frankly, most customers really don't care when, when a new customer first confronts you and your brand. They ask three questions, who are you? Why should I care? And what's in it for me? And if you can't answer those, if the story that you tell whether complete or in fragments or in in different parts according to where they are on their consideration journey. It doesn't resonate. It doesn't resonate. Hey, I have the best technology out there. I have brilliant people working on this technology. And guess what? Your technology? Somebody will eat your technology in 18 months, and I don't care, I want to know. What does it do for me? Michael Hingson  34:28 Yeah, as opposed to saying, After asking enough questions, I have technology that will solve this problem that you have identified. Let me tell you about it. Is that okay? Exactly? Scott Hornstein  34:44 Yeah, exactly. And as odd as it sounds, that helps you to stand out in the field, in a crowded Michael Hingson  34:55 field, it does, but it's also all about the. Relating to the customer and getting the customer to establish a rapport and relating to you. And when you, as you pointed out, make it about the customer, and you talk in such a way that clearly, you're demonstrating you're interested in the customer and what they want they're going to relate to you. Scott Hornstein  35:24 There's two, two things in there that, well, there's a million things in there that are particularly true. And the first is not only recognizing and and internalizing the goals of your client, but also opening yourself up and saying, these are people. These are humans. And the other real distinguishing fact that a lot of people don't either realize or embrace is that in business to business, and I've spent most of my life in business to business, it's all personal. It's all about personal connections. It's all about trust. And call me crazy, but I am not going to trust a machine. I will have confidence in technology, but my trust is going to be placed in the human through this, one anecdote that that is has really impressed me is that I was doing one of these interviews once, and I was talking to the CEO of of this company. And I said, Well, you know, I of course, I'm working for company A and you've been a client for a long time. What's, what's the greatest benefit that you get from this company? And without hesitation, he said, our salesman. Our salesman is part of our team. He understands who we are, he knows what we need, and he goes and he gets it. So that kind of that, to me, has always been a touchstone on things. Michael Hingson  37:43 Well, the fact that the salesman earned that reputation, and the President was willing to acknowledge it is really important and crucial. Scott Hornstein  37:56 And within that, I would say the very important word that you used is earn. You need to earn that trust. Sure it doesn't come just because you have brilliant technology. It's all people. It's all personal, all people. Michael Hingson  38:20 And that's success, the successful sales people are people who understand and work to earn trust. Scott Hornstein  38:32 Well said, and I think that particularly in this age of accelerating remoteness, that this concept of earning the trust and the person to person becomes a compelling competitive differentiator. And I think that that telling the story of of how you make your customers successful, of the role you play, of where you're going, this allows you to bridge some of those troubled waters to people who are sitting remote. It helps you to open your ears you know where you're going, so you can listen, yeah, Michael Hingson  39:40 well, and that's an extremely important thing to to keep in mind and to continue to hone, because bottom line is, it's all about, as I said, trust, and it certainly is about earning, and that isn't something you. First, it's something that you understand. Scott Hornstein  40:04 It's a gift that can only be bestowed on your customer. You can want it, but they're the only ones who can give you. Your brand is the meal you prepare. You but your reputation is the review, right? So, yeah, you gotta earn that trust. Michael Hingson  40:32 So how long so you you own your own company? How long has the company been in existence? Scott Hornstein  40:40 I Well, let's see. I went on my own on January 1 in 1986 and I am still without visible means of support. Michael Hingson  40:58 Well, there you go, same company all along, huh? Scott Hornstein  41:03 I Yeah, you know, do different work with different people, sure, but yes, it's still me. Michael Hingson  41:13 It's still, do you actually have a company and a name or anything like that? Scott Hornstein  41:17 I did. I did for a long time. I operated under Hornstein associates, okay, and recently I have dropped that and I just work as myself. I think that I had employees, then I had expandable, retractable resources then, and I'm not so interested in doing that right now. I am interested in working as and I love working as part of a team. Collaboration is my middle name. I might not have put that on my resume, but yeah, and I'm just, I'm really just interested in being me these days. Michael Hingson  42:13 That's fair. There's nothing wrong with that. No, well, in your current role, what do you think is the greatest contribution you've made to your clients, and I'd love an example, a story about that. Scott Hornstein  42:28 I would love to tell you a story. Oh, good. So one of my clients is a manufacturer. And they manufacture of all things, barcode scanners, as you would use in a warehouse and in a warehouse, absolutely everything, including the employees, has a barcode. Theirs is different than the the ones that you would normally see, the ones that like have a pistol grip. These are, these are new. It's new technology. They're ergonomically designed. They sit on the back of your hand. They're lightweight. They have more capabilities. They're faster and more accurate. Well, that sounds like sliced bread. However, they had a big problem in that all the scanners in all the warehouses come from the titans of the universe, the Motorola's, the great big names and these great, you know the old saying of Nobody ever got fired for buying IBM. Well, you know, if they need more scanners. Why would they go elsewhere? They just go back and get the same thing. So the the big problem is, is how to penetrate this market? And we did it. I worked with them in a number of ways. The first way was to conduct interviews, qualitative interviews, with the executive team, to come up with their their brand. What did they think? What did they think that was most important? And they said, clearly, the productivity gains, not only is this faster, not only can we prove that this is faster, but the the technology is so advanced that now we can also give you. Information from the shop floor. Well, then we talked to their their partners, who were already selling things into these warehouses. And we talked to a number of companies that were within their ICP, their ideal customer profile, I think that's very important to be prospecting with the folks who can make best use of your products and services. And what we found is that it wasn't just the productivity, it was that we solved other problems as well, and without going heavily into it, we solved the a big safety problem. We made the shop floor more secure and safer for the workers. So we changed the message from Warehouse productivity to the warehouse floor of making each employee safer, able to contribute more and able to have a better satisfaction, and that we were able to roll out into a into great messaging. The initial campaign was solely focused on the workers, and our offer was We challenge you to a scan off our scanners, against yours, your employees, your products, your warehouse. Let's have a head to head competition, because we then knew from these interviews, from working with the partners, that once these employees got the ergonomic the lightweight, ergonomic scanners on their hands, and realized how much faster They were, and how much safer that they were, that they would be our champions. And in fact, that's what, what happened. I can go deeper into the story, but it it became a story. Instead of coming in and just saying, boost your productivity, it's the scanners work for your your overall productivity. It helps you to keep your customers satisfied, your workers, one of the big problems that they're having is maintaining a stable and experienced workforce, this changed the characteristic of the shop floor, and it changed the character, how the employees themselves described their work environment. So we were able to take that and weave a story that went from one end of the warehouse to the other with benefits for everybody in between. So you said, What is the the one you said, the greatest benefit, I would say the contribution that I'm most proud of, it's that it's to recast the brand, the messaging, in the form, in the shape of the customer, of what they need, of helping them to achieve the future state that they want. And I'm sorry for a long winded answer, Michael Hingson  49:10 yes, that's okay. Not a not a problem. So let me what would you say are the two or three major accomplishments or achievements in your career, and what did they teach you? Scott Hornstein  49:26 Well, you know, I think the the achievements in my career, well, the first one I would mention was incorporating that, that voice of customer research, bringing the customer to the planning table, letting the executives, the sales people, the marketers, unite around, how does the customer express their hopes, their dreams, their challenges? I would say the second. Uh, is this idea of taking all of the content of all of the messaging and and unifying it? Some people call it a pillar view. I call it storytelling, of relaying these things so that you are giving your prospects and your customers the information that they need when they need it, at the specific point in their consideration journey, when this is most important, and it might be that a research report for a prospect that talks about some of the challenges in the marketplace and what's being done, it might be as simple for a customer as a as a video on how do you do this? You know, how do you screw in a light bulb? Oh, here it is. Everybody's used to that. The the third thing, and, and this is something, forgive me, for which I am, I am very proud, is that now I take this experience and this expertise, and through the organization called score, I'm able to give this back to people who are are trying to make their way as entrepreneurs Michael Hingson  51:35 through the Small Business Administration. And score, yes, Scott Hornstein  51:40 very proud of that. I get so much for from that. Michael Hingson  51:46 Well, what would you say are maybe the two or three major achievements for you in life, and what did you learn? Or what did they teach you? Or are they the same Scott Hornstein  51:57 I did? Well, I would say they're they're the same, and yet they're a little bit different. The first one is, is that it's only very few people who lead the charmed life where they are never knocked down. I'm not one of those people, and I've been knocked down several times, both professionally and personally, and to get back up, I to have that, and you will forgive me if I borrow a phrase that indomitable spirit that says, no, sorry, I'm getting back up again. And I can do this. And it may not be comfortable and it may not be easy, but I can do this. So there was that I think that having kids and then grandkids has taught me an awful lot about about interpersonal relationships, about the fact that there isn't anything more important than family, not by a long shot, and from these different things. I mean, certainly, as you I was, I didn't have the same experience, but 911 affected me deeply, deeply and and then it quite frankly, there was 2008 when I saw my my business and my finances sort of twirl up into the sky like like the Wizard of Oz, like that house in the beginning, Michael Hingson  54:09 but still, Scott Hornstein  54:16 And I persevere, yeah. So I think that that perseverance, that that focus on on family, on humanity. And I would say there's one other thing in there, is that. And this is a hard one. Observation is that I can't do anything about yesterday, and tomorrow is beyond my reach, so I I have to take Michael Hingson  54:56 today, but you can certainly use yesterday. As a learning experience, Scott Hornstein  55:01 I am the sum of all my parts, absolutely, but my focus isn't today, and using everything that I've learned certainly. You know, I got tongue tied there for just a minute. Michael Hingson  55:19 I hear you, though, when did you get married? Scott Hornstein  55:25 I got married in 87 I I met my wife commuting on the train to New York. Michael Hingson  55:35 So you had actually made the decision to could to quit and so on, before you met and married her. Scott Hornstein  55:43 No, no, I was, I was I met her while I still had a job in advertising. That's why I was commuting to New York. And you know, in the morning there was a bunch of us. We'd hold seats for each other and just camaraderie, yeah, you know, have our coffee. Did she? Did she work? She did she did she was she joined the group because she knew she had just gotten a job in New York. And of course, for those who don't know New York? When I say New York, I mean Manhattan, the city. Nobody thinks of any of the boroughs Michael Hingson  56:27 as part of New York. Scott Hornstein  56:31 And yeah, I and one day gone in, she fell asleep on my shoulder, and the rest is history. There you go. Michael Hingson  56:41 What So, what did she think when you quit and went completely out on your own? Scott Hornstein  56:48 I you know, I never specifically asked her, but I would think that she would have thought that maybe I was not as solid, maybe not as much marriage material, maybe a little bit of a risk taker. I did not see it as as taking a risk, though, at that time, but it was actually great for us, just great for us. And yeah, met there, and then I quit. Shortly thereafter, she was still commuting. And then things started to just take off, yeah, yeah, both for my career and for the relationship, yeah. Michael Hingson  57:51 And again, the rest of course, as they say, is history. Scott Hornstein  57:56 It is. And here I am now in Reston, Virginia, and we moved to Reston because both daughters are in close proximity, and my two grandchildren. And you know, am I still confronted with the knock downs and the and the get up again. Yeah, the marketplace is very crazy today. The big companies are doing great, the mid size companies, which is my Market, and it's by choice, because I like dealing with senior management. I like dealing with the people who make the decisions, who if we decide something's going to happen, it happens and and you can see the impact on the culture, on on the finances, on the customer base. These guys are it's tough out there right now. Let me say that it's it's tough to know which way to go. This doesn't seem to be anything that's sure at the moment. Michael Hingson  59:11 Yeah, it's definitely a challenging world and and then the government isn't necessarily helping that a lot either. But again, resilience is an important thing, and the fact is that we all need to learn that we can survive and surmount whatever comes along. Scott Hornstein  59:33 And let me just throw in AI that is a big disruptor at the moment that nobody actually knows Michael Hingson  59:43 what to do with it. I think people have various ideas there. There are a lot of different people with a lot of different ideas. And AI can be a very powerful tool to help but it is a tool. It is not an end all. Um. Yeah, and well said, I think that, you know, even I, when I first heard about AI, I heard people complaining about how students were writing their papers using AI, and you couldn't tell and almost immediately I realized, and thought, so what the trick is, what are you going to do about it. And what I've what I've said many times to teachers, is let students use AI if that's what they're going to use to write their papers, and then they turn them in. And what you do is you take one period, and you call each student up and you say, All right, I've read your paper. I have it here. I want you now to defend your paper, and you have one minute, you're going to find out very quickly who really knows what they're talking about. Scott Hornstein  1:00:47 That, in fact, is brilliant. Michael Hingson  1:00:49 I think it's a very I think it's a very powerful tool. I use AI in writing, but I use it in that. I will use it, I will I will ask it questions and get ideas, and I'll ask other questions and get other ideas, and then I will put them together, however, because I know that I can write better than AI can write, and maybe the time will come when it'll mimic me pretty well, but still, I can write better than AI can write, but AI's got a lot more resources to come up with ideas. Scott Hornstein  1:01:21 It does. It does. And with that, it's a fantastic tool. The differentiator, as I see it, for most of my stuff, is that AI has read about all this stuff, but I've lived it, so I'm going to trust me at the end, Michael Hingson  1:01:45 and when I talk about surviving the World Trade Center and teaching people what I learned that helped me in the World Trade Center, I point out most people, if there's an emergency, read signs and they're told go this way to escape or to get out or do this or do that, but there's still signs, and they don't know anything. I don't read signs, needless to say, and what I did was spent a fair amount of time truly learning all I could about the World Trade Center where things were, what the emergency evacuation procedures were what would happen in an emergency and so on. And so for me, it was knowledge and not just relying on a sign. And so when September 11 happened, a mindset kicked in, and we talked about that in my my latest book, live like a guide dog. But that's what it's about, is it's all about knowledge and truly having that information, and that's what you can trust. Scott Hornstein  1:02:48 I'll give you a big amen on that one. Michael Hingson  1:02:52 Well, this has been a lot of fun to do. We've been Can you believe we've been doing this an hour? My gosh, time, I know having fun. Scott Hornstein  1:03:03 It's fun. And I would say again, in closing, I just have enormous respect for what you've accomplished, what you've done. This is been a great privilege for me. I thank you very much. Michael Hingson  1:03:19 Well, it's been an honor for me, and I really value all the comments, the advice, the thoughts that you've shared, and hopefully people will take them to heart. And I would say to all of you out there, if you'd like to reach out to Scott, how do they do that? Well, there you go. See, just, just type, well, right? Scott Hornstein  1:03:42 That's it. If you, if you sent an email to Scott dot Hornstein at Gmail, you'll get me. Michael Hingson  1:03:56 And Hornstein is spelled Scott Hornstein  1:03:58 H, O, R, N, S, T, E, I, Michael Hingson  1:04:03 N, and again, it's [email protected] Scott Hornstein  1:04:09 that's that's the deal. There you go. Well, find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on medium. I'm all over the place. Michael Hingson  1:04:18 There you are. Well, I hope people will reach out, because I think you will enhance anything that they're doing, and certainly trust is a big part of it, and you earn it, which is great. So thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching us wherever you are. Please give us a five star review and a rating and but definitely give us a review as well. We appreciate that. If you know anyone else who ought to be a guest, Scott, you as well. We're always looking for more people to have on, so please introduce us and Scott. If you want to come on again, we can talk about that too. That'd be kind of fun. But I want to thank what I want to thank you again for being here. This has been fun, and I appreciate you being here with us today and and so thank you very much for doing it. Scott Hornstein  1:05:07 My all the pleasure is all mine. Michael Hingson  1:05:14 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

What happens when a childhood dream refuses to let go? In this episode, I sit down with cartoonist and Lum and Abner historian Donnie Pitchford to explore how old-time radio, comic strips, and a love for storytelling shaped his life. Donnie shares how he grew up inspired by classic radio shows like Lum and Abner, pursued art despite setbacks, and eventually brought the beloved Pine Ridge characters back to life through a modern comic strip and audio adaptations. We talk about creativity, persistence, radio history, and why imagination still matters in a visual world. If you care about classic radio, cartooning, or staying true to your calling, I believe you will find this conversation both inspiring and practical. Highlights: 00:10 Discover how a childhood love of Lum and Abner sparked a lifelong dream of becoming a cartoonist. 08:00 Hear how college radio and classic broadcasts deepened a passion for old time radio storytelling. 14:33 Understand how years of teaching broadcast journalism built the skills that later fueled creative success. 23:17 Learn how the Lum and Abner comic strip was revived with family approval and brought to modern audiences. 30:07 Explore how two actors created an entire town through voice and imagination alone. 1:00:16 Hear the vision for keeping Lum and Abner alive for new generations through comics and audio. Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: Donnie Pitchford of Texas is a graduate of Kilgore College, Art Instruction Schools, Stephen F. Austin State University and the University of Texas at Tyler. He has worked in the graphic arts industry and in education, teaching at Hawkins High School, Panola College, and Carthage High School at which he spent 25 years directing CHS-TV, where student teams earned state honors, including state championships, for 20 consecutive years. In 2010, Donnie returned to the endeavor he began at age five: being a cartoonist! The weekly “Lum and Abner" comic strip began in 2011. It is available online and in print and includes an audio production for the blind which features the talents of actors and musicians who donate their time. Donnie has created comic book stories and art for Argo Press of Austin, illustrated children's books, written scripts for the "Dick Tracy" newspaper strip, and produced the science fiction comedy strip "Tib the Rocket Frog." He has collaborated with award-winning writers and cartoonists George Wildman, Nicola Cuti, John Rose, Mike Curtis, Joe Staton, and others. In 2017, Donnie began assisting renowned sculptor Bob Harness and currently sculpts the portraits for the Texas Country Music Hall of Fame plaques. Awards include the 1978 Kilgore College "Who's Who" in Art, an Outstanding Educator Award from the East Texas Chapter of the Texas Society of CPAs in 1993, the CHS "Pine Burr" Dedicatee honor in 2010, and a Distinguished Alumnus Award in 2018 from Spring Hill High School. In 2024, Donnie was inducted into the City of Carthage Main Street Arts Walk of Fame which included the placement of a bronze plaque in the sidewalk and the Key to the City. Donnie and his best friend/wife, Laura, are members of First Methodist Church Carthage, Texas. Donnie is a founding officer of the National Lum and Abner Society and a member of Texas Cartoonists, Ark-La-Tex Cartoonists, Christian Comic Arts Society, and the National Cartoonists Society. Ways to connect with Michaela**:** https://www.facebook.com/groups/220795254627542 https://lumandabnercomics.com/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I've been looking forward to this one for a while. We have Donny Pitchford as our guest today. You're probably going, who's Donnie Pitchford? Well, let me tell you. So years ago, I started collecting old radio shows. And one of the first shows that I got was a half hour episode of a show called Lum and Abner, which is about a couple of characters, if you will, in Pine Ridge, Arkansas. And I had only heard the half hour show sponsored by frigid air. But then in 1971 when ksi, out here in Los Angeles, the 50,000 watt Clear Channel station, started celebrating its 50 year history, they started broadcasting as part of what they did, 15 minute episodes of lemon Abner. And I became very riveted to listening to lemon Abner every night, and that went on for quite a while. And so I've kept up with the boys, as it were. Well, a several years ago, some people formed a new Lum and Abner society, and Donnie Pitchford is part of that. I met Donnie through radio enthusiast of Puget Sound, and yesterday, USA. And so we clearly being interested in old radio and all that, had to have Donnie come on and and talk with us. So Donnie, or whatever character you're representing today, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Donnie Pitchford  02:58 Huh? I'm glad to be here. Michael Hingson  03:00 He does that very well, doesn't he? It's a Donnie Pitchford  03:04 little tough sometimes. Well, I'm really glad to be here. Thank you. Michael Hingson  03:10 Well, I appreciate the audio parts of lemon Abner that you you all create every week, and just the whole society. It's great to keep that whole thing going it's kind of fun. We're glad that that it is. But let's, let's talk about you a little bit. Why don't you start by telling us about the early Donnie, growing up and all that. I'm assuming you were born, and so we won't worry about that. But beyond that, think so, yeah. Well, there you are. Tell us about tell us about you and growing up and all that, and we'll go from there. Donnie Pitchford  03:42 Well, I was born in East Texas and left for a little while. We lived in my family lived in Memphis, Tennessee for about seven years, and then moved back to Texas in 1970 but ever since I was a kid this I hear this from cartoonists everywhere. Most of them say I wanted to be a cartoonist when I was five years old. So that's in fact, I had to do a speech for the Texas cartoonist chapter of the National Cartoonist Society. And that was my start. I was going to say the same thing, and the President said, Whatever you do, don't do that old bit about wanting to be a cartoonist at age five. Everybody does that, so I left that part out, but that's really what I wanted to do as a kid. And I would see animated cartoons. I would read the Sunday comics in the Memphis Commercial Appeal, and then at some point, my dad would talk about radio, and my mother would talk about listening to radio. We would have the reruns of the Lone Ranger television show and things like Sky King and other programs along those lines, and my parents would all. Way say, Well, I used to listen to that on the radio, or I would hear Superman on the radio, or Amos and Andy or whatever was being rerun at that time, and that fascinated me. And I had these vague memories of hearing what I thought were television programs coming over the radio when I was about two years old. I remember gunshots. I remember, you know, like a woman crying and just these little oddball things. I was about two years old, and I kept thinking, Well, why are we picking up television programs on my mother's radio? Turns out it was the dying gasps of what we now call old time radio. And so at least I remembered that. But when I was about, I guess eight or nine we were, my dad took me to lunch at alums restaurant in Memphis, and I saw that name, and I thought, What in the world? So what kind of name is that? And my dad told me about London Abner, and he said it reminds me. It reminded him of the Andy Griffith Show or the Beverly Hillbillies. I said, I'd love to hear that. He said, Ah, you'll never hear it. He said, those were live they don't exist, but years later, I got to hear them. So yeah, but that's how I grew up wanting to be a cartoonist and coming up with my own characters and drawing all the time and writing stories and that sort of thing. Michael Hingson  06:24 So when did you move back from Memphis to Texas? Donnie Pitchford  06:28 July 2, 1970 I just happened to look that up the other day. How old were you then? I was 12 when we came back. All right, so got into, I was in junior high, and trying to, I was trying to find an audience for these comic strips I was drawing on notebook paper. And finally, you know, some of the kids got into them, and I just continued with that goal. And I just, I knew that soon as possible, you know, I was going to start drawing comics professionally. So I thought, but kept, you know, I kept trying. Michael Hingson  07:06 So you, you went on into college. What did you do in college? Donnie Pitchford  07:11 Well, more of the same. I started listening to some old time radio shows even as far back as as high school. And I was interested in that went to college, first at a college called Kill Gore College, here in East Texas, and then to Stephen F Austin State University. And I was majoring in, first commercial art, and then art education. And I thought, well, if I can't go right into comics, you know, maybe I can just teach for a while. I thought I'll do that for a couple of years. I thought it wouldn't be that long. But while I was at Stephen F Austin State University, the campus radio station, I was so pleased to find out ran old time radio shows. This was in 1980 there was a professor named Dr Joe Oliver, who had a nightly program called theater of the air. And I would hear this voice come over the radio. He would run, he Well, one of the first, the very first 15 minute lemon Abner show I ever heard was played by Dr Oliver. He played Jack Benny. He played the whistler suspense, just a variety of them that he got from a syndicated package. And I would hear this voice afterwards, come on and say, It's jazz time. I'm Joe Oliver. And I thought, Where have I heard that voice? It was, it's just a magnificent radio voice. Years later, I found out, well, I heard that voice in Memphis when I was about 10 years old on W, R, E, C, radio and television. He was working there. He lived in Memphis about the same time we did. Heard him on the campus station at Nacogdoches, Texas. Didn't meet him in person until the late 90s, and it was just an amazing collection of coincidences. And now, of course, we're good friends. Now he's now the announcer for our audio comic strip. So it's amazing how all that came about. Well, I Michael Hingson  09:16 I remember listening to sort of the last few years of oval radio. I think it was, I don't remember the date now, whether it's 57 or 50 I think it's 57 the Kingston Trio had come out with the song Tom Dooley, and one day I was listening to K and X radio in Los Angeles. We lived in Palmdale, and I heard something about a show called suspense that was going to play the story of Tom Dooley. And I went, sounds interesting, and I wanted to know more about it, so I listened. And that started a weekly tradition with me every Sunday, listening to yours truly Johnny dollar and suspense, and they had a little bit of the FBI and peace and war. Then it's went into half and that that went off and Have Gun Will Travel came on, and then at 630 was Gun Smoke. So I listened to radio for a couple of hours every week, not every Sunday night, and thoroughly enjoyed it. And so that's how I really started getting interested in it. Then after radio went off the air a few stations out in California and on the LA area started playing old radio shows somebody started doing because they got the syndicated versions of the shadow and Sherlock Holmes with Sir John Gielgud and Sir Ralph Richardson. And I still maintain to this day that John Gielgud is the best Sherlock Holmes. No matter what people say about Basil Rathbone and I still think Sir John Gielgud was the best Sherlock Holmes. He was very, very good. Yeah, he was and so listen to those. But you know, radio offers so much. And even with, with, with what the whole lemon Abner shows today. My only problem with the lemon Abner shows today is they don't last nearly long enough. But that's another story. Donnie Pitchford  11:11 Are you talking about the comic strip adaptation? Okay, you know how long, how much art I would have to 11:21 do every week. Michael Hingson  11:25 Oh, I know, but they're, they're fun, and, you know, we, we enjoy them, but so you So you met Joe, and as you said, He's the announcer. Now, which is, which is great, but what were you doing then when you met him? What kind of work were you doing at the time? Donnie Pitchford  11:45 Well, of course, there was a gap there of about, I guess, 15 years after college, before I met him. And what ended up happening my first teaching job was an art job, a teaching art and graphic arts at a small high school in Hawkins, Texas, and that was a disaster. Wasn't a wasn't a very good year for me. And so I left that, and I had worked in the printing industry, I went back to that, and that was all during the time that the National London Abner society was being formed. And so I printed their earliest newsletters, which came out every other month. And we started having conventions in MENA, Arkansas and in the real Pine Ridge and the my fellow ossifers As we we call ourselves, and you hear these guys every week on the lemon Abner comic strip. Sam Brown, who lives in Illinois, Tim Hollis, from Alabama. Tim is now quite a published author who would might be a good guest for you one day, sure. And just two great guys. We had a third officer early on named Rex riffle, who had to leave due to various illnesses about 1991 but we started having our conventions every year, starting in 1985 we had some great guests. We brought in everybody we could find who worked with lemon Abner or who knew lemon Abner. We had their their head writer, Roswell Rogers. We had actors, I'm sure you've heard of Clarence Hartzell. He was Ben withers, of course, on the Old Vic and Sade show. He was Uncle Fletcher. We had Willard Waterman, parley Bayer, some of their announcers, Wendell Niles. And my memory is going to start failing me, because there were so many, but we had Bob's, Watson, Louise curry, who were in their first two movies. We had Kay Lineker, who was in their third movie. The list goes on and on, but we had some amazing when did Chester lock pass away? He passed away? Well, Tuffy passed away first, 1978, 78 and Chet died in 1980 sad. Neither of them, yeah, we didn't get to media. Yeah, we didn't meet either one of them. I've met Mrs. Lock I've met all of chet's children, several grandchildren. We spoke to Mrs. Goff on the phone a time or two, and also, tuffy's got toughie's daughter didn't get to meet them in person, but we met as many of the family as we could. Michael Hingson  14:32 Still quite an accomplishment all the way around. And so you you taught. You didn't have success. You felt really much at first, but then what you taught for quite a while, though, Donnie Pitchford  14:45 didn't you? Yes, I went back to the printing industry for about a year, and in the summer of 85 about two weeks before school started, I had got a call that they needed someone to teach Broadcast Journalism at. Carthage High School, and we had a department called CHS TV. I ran that for 25 years. I taught classes. We produced a weekly television program, weekly radio program. We did all kinds of broadcasts for the school district and promotional video. And then in the last I think it was the last 10 years or so that I worked there, we started an old time radio show, and we were trying to come up with a title for it, and just as a temporary placeholder, we called it the golden age of radio. Finally, we said, well, let's just use that, and I think it's been used by other people since, but, but that was the title we came up with. I think in 19 I think it was in 93 or 9495 somewhere in there. We started out. We just ran Old Time Radio, and the students, I would have them research and introduce, like, maybe 45 minutes of songs, of music, you know, from the 30s, 40s, maybe early 50s, big band and Sinatra and Judy Garland and you name it. Then, when the classes would change, we would always start some type of radio program that was pre recorded that would fill that time, so the next class could come in and get in place and and everybody participated, and they went out live over our cable television channel, and we would just run a graphic of a radio and maybe have some announcements or listing of what we were playing. And we did that for several years, usually maybe two or three times a year. And then in I think it was 2004 or so, we had an offer from a low power FM station, which was another another county over, and we started doing a Sunday night, one hour program each week. And I think we ended up doing close to 300 of those before I left. And so we got old time radio in there, one way or the other. Michael Hingson  17:03 Well, I remember. I remember, for me, I went to UC Irvine in the fall of 1968 and by the spring the last quarter of my freshman year, I had started getting some old radio shows. So started playing shows, and then in the fall, I started doing a three hour show on Sunday night called the Radio Hall of Fame, and we did radio every night. And what I didn't know until, actually, fairly recently, was our mutual friend Walden Hughes actually listened to my show on Sunday, and so did the gas means actually, but, but we had a low power station as well, but it made it up, and so people listened to it. And I've always been proud of the fact that during the fact that during the time I ran the Radio Hall of Fame, I'd heard of this show called 60 minutes with a guy named Mike Wallace, but never got to see it. And then it was only much later that I actually ended up starting to watch 60 Minutes. Course, I always loved to say I would have loved to have met, met Mike Wallace and never got to do it, but I always said he had criminal tendencies. I mean, my gosh, what do you think he was the announcer on radio for the Green Hornet, a criminal show, right? Sky King, a lot of criminals. Clearly the guy. Anyway, I would have been fun to meet him, but, Donnie Pitchford  18:31 and his name was Myron. Myron Wallach at the time. Wallach, you're right. I think that's right. Michael Hingson  18:37 But it was, it was fun and and so I've actually got some Sky King shows and green Hornets with him. So it's, it's kind of cool, but Right? You know, I still really do believe that the value of radio is it makes you imagine more. I've seen some movies that I really like for that the original Invasion of the Body Snatchers with Kevin McCarthy back in 1955 I thought was such a good movie because they didn't show the plants taking over the humans. It was all left to your imagination, which was so cool, and they changed all that in the later remake of it with Leonard Nimoy, which I didn't think was nearly as good, not nearly as suspenseful. But anyway, that's just my opinion. But radio, for me was always a and continues to be a part of what I like to do. And so I've been collecting shows and and enjoying and, of course, listening to lemon Abner, So what made you decide to finally end teaching? Donnie Pitchford  19:38 Well, you know, I could only do that so long. I was getting I was getting very tired, getting kind of burned out, and I had to have a change. There's something had to change. And I was able to take a few years early and retire, and I still the whole time I had a. That it was like a haunting feeling. I, you know, I wanted to be a cartoonist. I would pray, you know, you know, Lord, is there some way can I, can I get out of this? And can I do what I really want to do? And I had some mentors that was finally able to meet people that I would write letters to as a kid, a cartoonist and comic book editor named George Wildman was one of them. He was nice enough to answer my letters when I was a kid, and I'd send him drawings, and he would encourage me, or he would send little corrections on there, you know. And another one was a gentleman named high Eisemann, who passed away recently at age 98 on his birthday, but men like this inspired me, and that it kept at me through the years. I finally met George in 1994 at a convention of the the international Popeye fan club. And I'm I'm at high the same way, and also a writer named Nicola Cuddy, who wrote some Popeye comics. I met him the same way, same event, we all became friends, and I had a good friend named Michael Ambrose of Austin, Texas, who published a magazine devoted to the Charlton Comics company. Sadly, he's deceased now, but Mike and I were talking before I retired, and finally I got out of it. And he said, now that you're out of that job, how would you like to do some art? I said, That's what I want to do. So he gave me the opportunity to do my first published work, which was a portrait of artist George Wildman. It was on the cover of a magazine called Charlton spotlight, then I did some work for Ben Omar, who is bear Manor media publisher for some books that he was doing. One was Mel Blanc biography that Noel blank wrote, did some illustrations for that. This was all happening in 2010 and after that. So I was getting it was getting rolling, doing the kind of work I really wanted to do. And there's a gentleman named Ethan nobles in Benton, Arkansas, who wanted to interview me. I'd gotten, I don't know how he I forgot how he got in touch with me. Maybe he heard me on yesterday USA could be wanted to interview me about London Abner. And so he was starting a website called first Arkansas news. And somewhere in early 2011 we were talking, and I said, you know, you want this to be an online newspaper, right? He said, Yes. I said, What about comics? He said, I hadn't thought about that. So I said, Well, you know, you're a big Lum and Abner fan. What if we could we do a Lum and Abner comic strip? He said, Well, who would Where would I get? Who would do? And I said, Me. So I drew up some proposals, I drew some model sheets, and we did about four weeks of strips, and got approval from Chester lock Jr, and he suggested there's some things he didn't like. He said, The lum looks too sinister. He looks mean. Well, he's mad. He said he's mad at Abner. This won't happen every week. He said, Okay, I don't want LOM to be I said, Well, you know, they get mad at each other. That's part of the that's the conflict and the comedy Michael Hingson  23:30 at each other. Yeah. Donnie Pitchford  23:33 So we, we ironed it all out, and we came up with a financial agreement, and had to pay royalties and one thing and another, and we started publishing online in June 2011, and about six weeks later, the MENA newspaper, the MENA star in MENA, Arkansas, which was the birthplace of Lyman, Abner, Chet Locke and Norris Goff, they picked it up, and then we had a few other newspapers pick it up. And you know, we're not, we're not worldwide, syndicated in print, but we're getting it out there. And of course, we're always online, but and the first Arkansas news went under three or four years later, and so now we have our own website, which is Lum and Abner comics.com so that's where you can find us Michael Hingson  24:24 online. So where's Pine Ridge? Donnie Pitchford  24:28 Pine Ridge is about 18 miles from Mena, Arkansas. MENA is in western Arkansas, and Pine Ridge is about 18 miles east, I believe I'm trying to picture it in my mind, but it's it's down the road, and it actually exists. It was a little community originally named for a postmaster. It was named waters, waters, Arkansas, and in 1936 the real. At cuddleston. He was a real person who owned a store there in waters, and was friends with the locks and the golfs with their parents, as well as Chet and Tuffy. But he proposed a publicity stunt and an actual change of name to name the community Pine Ridge. So that's how that happened. Michael Hingson  25:24 Now, in the original 15 minute episodes, who is the narrator? Donnie Pitchford  25:28 Well, it depends what era their first one trying to remember. Now, Gene Hamilton was an early announcer in the Ford days, which was the early 30s. We don't have anything recorded before that. Charles Lyon was one of the early announcers, possibly for for Quaker Oats. I don't have any notes on this in front of me. I'm just going on memory here. Memory at the end of a long week. Gene Hamilton was their Ford announcer. Carlton brickert announced the Horlicks malt and milk did the commercials when they 1934 to 38 or so. Lou Crosby took over when they were sponsored by General Foods, by post them, the post them commercials, and Lou stayed with them on into the Alka Seltzer era. And his daughter, the celebrity daughter, is Kathie Lee Crosby, you may remember, right, and she and her sister Linda, Lou were a couple of our guests at the National lemon Avenue society convention in 1996 I think let's see. Crosby was Gene Baker came after Crosby, and then in the 30 minute days, was Wendell Niles. Wendell Niles, yeah, in the CBS the 30 minute series and Wendell. We also had him in Mina, super nice guy when it came, when it got into the later ones, 1953 54 I don't remember that announcer's name. That's when they got into the habit of having Dick Huddleston do the opening narration, which is why we now have Sam Brown as Dick Huddleston doing that every week. Michael Hingson  27:27 So was it actually Dick Huddleston? No, it Donnie Pitchford  27:30 was North golf, tough. He always played the part of Dick Huddleston. Okay, the only, the only time that, as far as I know, the only time the real dick Huddleston was on network radio, was at that ceremony in Little Rock Arkansas, when they changed the name of the town that the real dick Huddleston spoke at that event. And we actually, we discovered a recording of that. I was just gonna ask if there's a recording of that there is. Yeah, it's on 12 inch, 78 RPM discs. Wow. And they were probably the personal discs of lock and golf, and they weren't even labeled. And I remember spinning that thing when Sam Brown and I after we found it, it was down in Houston, and we brought them a batch of discs back, and I remember spinning that thing and hearing the theme song being played, I said, this sounds like a high school band. And suddenly we both got chills because we had heard that. I don't know if it was the Little Rock High School band or something, but it's like, Can this be? Yes, it was. It was. We thought it was long lost, but it was that ceremony. Wow. So that was a great find. Michael Hingson  28:45 Well, hopefully you'll, you'll play that sometime, or love to get a copy, but, Donnie Pitchford  28:50 yeah, we've, we have we played it on yesterday, USA. Oh, okay, so it's out there. Michael Hingson  28:57 Well, that's cool. Well, yeah, I wondered if Dick Huddleston actually ever was directly involved, but, but I can, can appreciate that. As you said, Tuffy Goff was the person who played him, which was, that's still that was pretty cool. They were very talented. Go ahead, Donnie Pitchford  29:19 I was gonna say that's basically tough. He's natural speaking voice, yeah, when you hear him as Dick Huddleston, Michael Hingson  29:24 they're very talented people. They played so many characters on the show. They did and and if you really listen, you could tell, but mostly the voices sounded enough different that they really sounded like different people all the time. Donnie Pitchford  29:41 Well, the fun thing are the episodes where, and it's carefully written, but they will, they will do an episode where there may be seven or eight people in the room and they get into an argument, or they're trying to all talk at the same time, and you completely forget that it's only two guys, because they will overlap. Those voices are just so perfectly overlapped and so different, and then you stop and you listen. So wait a minute, I'm only hearing two people at a time, but the effect is tremendous, the fact that they were able to pull that off and fool the audience. Michael Hingson  30:15 I don't know whether I'd say fool, but certainly entertained. Well, yeah, but they also did have other characters come on the show. I remember, yes, Diogenes was that was a lot of fun listening to those. Oh yeah, yeah, that was Frank Graham. Frank Graham, right, right, but, but definitely a lot of fun. So you eventually left teaching. You decided you accepted jobs, starting to do cartoons. What were some of the other or what, well, what were some of the first and early characters that you cartooned, or cartoons that you created, Donnie Pitchford  30:50 just, you mean, by myself or Well, or with people, either way, I did some things that were not published, you know, just just personal characters that I came up with it would mean nothing to anybody, but a little bit later on, I did a little bit of I did a cover for a Popeye comic book. Maybe 10 years ago, I finally got a chance to work with George Wildman, who was the fellow I talked about earlier, and it was some of the last work he did, and this was with Michael Ambrose of Argo press out of Austin, Texas. And we did some early characters that had been published by Charlton Comics. They had, they had characters, they were, they were rip offs. Let's be honest. You know Harvey had Casper the Friendly Ghost. Well, Charlton had Timmy, the timid ghost. There, there was Mighty Mouse. Well, Charlton Comics had atomic mouse, so and there was an atomic rabbit. And Warner Brothers had Porky Pig. Charlton had pudgy pig, but that was some of George's earliest work in the 1950s was drawing these characters, and George was just he was a master Bigfoot cartoonist. I mean, he was outstanding. And so Mike said, let's bring those characters back. They're public domain. We can use them. So I wrote the scripts. George did the pencil art. Well, he inked the first few, but Mike had me do hand lettering, which I don't do that much. So it was that was a challenge. And my friend high Iseman taught lettering for years and years, and so I was thinking, high is going to see this? This has to be good. So I probably re lettered it three times to get it right, but we did the very last story we did was atomic rabbit and pudgy pig was a guest star, and then George's character named brother George, who was a little monk who didn't speak, who lived, lived in a monastery, and did good deeds and all that sort of thing. He was in there, and this was the last thing we did together. And George said, you know, since I've got these other projects, he said, Do you think you can, you can ink this? So that was a great honor to actually apply the inks over George's pencil work. And I also did digital color, but those were some things I worked on, and, oh, at one point we even had Lum and Abner in the Dick Tracy Sunday comic strip, and that was because of a gentleman named Mike Curtis, who was the writer who lived in Arkansas, was very familiar with Lum and Abner, and he got in touch with me and asked, this was in 2014 said, Would it be possible for me to use Lum and Abner in a Sunday cameo? So I contacted the locks. First thing they first thing Chet said was how much I said, I don't think they're going to pay us. I felt like, Cedric, we hunt, no mom, you know. And I felt like he was squire skimp at the time, yeah, but I said, it's just going to be really good publicity. So he finally went for it, and Lum and Abner had a cameo in a Sunday Dick Tracy comic strip, and about four years later, they honored me. This was Mike Curtis, the writer, and Joe Staton, the artist, who was another guy that I grew up reading from as a teenager, just a tremendous artist, asked if they could base a character on me. And I thought, what kind of murderer is he going to be? You know, it was going to be idiot face or what's his name, you know. So no, he was going to be a cartoonist, and the name was Peter pitchblende. Off, and he was, he said his job was to illustrate a comic strip about a pair of old comedians. So, I mean, who couldn't be honored by that? Yeah, so I don't remember how long that story lasted, but it was an honor. I mean, it was just great fun. And then then I had a chance to write two weeks of Dick Tracy, which was fun. I wrote the scripts for it and and then there's some other things. I was able to work with John rose, a tremendously nice guy who is the current artist on Barney Google and Snuffy Smith. We did a story, a comic book story, on Barney Google on Snuffy Smith in a magazine called Charleton spotlight, and I did the colors, digital coloring for that. So just these are just great honors to me to get to work with people like that. And Nick Cuddy, I did some inking, lettering coloring on some of his work. So just great experience, and Michael Hingson  36:02 great people, going back to atomic rabbit and pudgy pig, no one ever got in trouble with, from Warner Brothers with that, huh? Donnie Pitchford  36:09 Well, not, not on atomic rabbit, however, pudgy pig created a problem because George was doing some art, and I think somebody from Warner Brothers said he looks too much like Porky, so the editor at the time said, make one of his ears hang down, make him look a little different. But pudgy didn't last long. Pudgy was only around maybe two or three issues of the comic book, so, but yeah, that's George. Said they did have some trouble with that. Michael Hingson  36:44 Oh, people, what do you do? Yeah, well, I know you sent us a bunch of photos, and we have some of the Dick Tracy ones and others that people can go see. But what? What finally got you all to start the whole lemon Abner society. Donnie Pitchford  37:07 Oh, well, that goes back to 1983 right, and I'll go back even farther than that. I told you that my dad had mentioned lemon Abner to me as a kid. Dr Joe Oliver played a 15 minute lemon Abner show on KSA you at Stephen F Austin State University. That got me. I was already into old time radio, but it was the next summer 1981 there's a radio station, an am station in Gilmer, Texas Christian radio station that started running Lum and Abner every day. First it was 530 in the evening, and then I think they switched it to 1215 or so. And I started listening, started setting up my recorder, recording it every day. And a friend of mine named David Miller, who was also a radio show collector, lived in the Dallas area, I would send them to him, and at first he wasn't impressed, but then suddenly he got hooked. And when he got hooked, he got enthusiastic. He started making phone calls. He called Mrs. Lock chet's widow and talked to her. He spoke to a fellow who had written a number of articles, George Lily, who was an early proponent or an early promoter of lemon Abner, as far as reruns in the 1960s and it was through George Lilly that I was put in touch with Sam Brown in Dongola, Illinois, and because he had contacted Mr. Lilly as well. And before long, we were talking, heard about this guy named Tim Hollis. Sam and I met in Pine Ridge for lemon Abner day in 1982 for the first time, and hit it off like long lost friends and became very good friends. And then in 84 I believe it was Sam and Tim and Rex riffle met again, or met for the first time together, I guess in Pine Ridge. And I wasn't there that time. But somehow, in all of that confusion, it was proposed to start the national lemon Abner society, and we started publishing the Jot them down journal in the summer of 1984 Michael Hingson  39:43 and for those who don't know the Jotham down journal, because the store that lemon Abner ran was the Jotham down store anyway, right? Donnie Pitchford  39:50 Go ahead, yes. And that was Tim's title. Tim created the title The Jotham down journal, and we started publishing and started seeking information. And it started as just a simple photocopy on paper publication. It became a very slick publication. In 1990 or 91 Sam started recording cassettes, reading the journals, because we were hearing from Blind fans that said, you know, I enjoy the journal. I have to have somebody read it to me. This is before screen readers. And of course, you know this technology better than I do, but before any type of technology was available, and Sam said, Well, I'll tell you. I'll just start reading it on tape and I'll make copies. Just started very simply, and from then on, until the last issue in in 2007 Sam would record a cassette every other month, or when we went quarterly, four times a year, and he would mail those to the the blind members, who would listen to those. And sometimes they would keep them, and sometimes they would return them for Sam to recycle. But incidentally, those are all online now, Michael Hingson  41:03 yeah, I've actually looked at a few of those. Those are kind of fun. So the London Avenue society got formed, and then you started having conventions. Donnie Pitchford  41:14 Yes, yes. First convention was in 1985 and we did a lot of things with we would do recreations. We would do a lot of new scripts, where, if we had someone that we got to the point where we would have people that hadn't worked with lemon Abner. So we would have lemon Abner meet the great Gildersleeve. Actually, Willard had worked on the lumen Abner half hour show at some point. I believe les Tremain had never worked directly with them, but he was well, he was in some Horlicks malted milk commercials in the 1930s and of course, the Lone Ranger was never on the London Abner show and vice versa, until we got hold of it. So we had Fred Foy in 1999 and he agreed to be the announcer, narrator and play the part of the Lone Ranger. So we did Lum and Abner meet the Lone Ranger, which was a lot of fun. We had parley bear, so Lum and Abner met Chester of Gun Smoke. And those were just a lot of fun to do. And Tim, Tim would write some of them, I would write some of them, or we would collaborate back and forth to come up with these scripts. Did love and amner, ever meet Superman? No, we never got to that. That would have been great. Yeah, if we could have come up with somebody who had played Superman, that would have been a lot of fun. We had lemon Abner meet Kathie Lee Crosby as herself. Yeah, they met Frank brazzi One time. That must be fun. It was a lot of fun. We had some people would recreate the characters. We had the lady who had played Abner's daughter, Mary Lee Rob replay. She played that character again, 50 years later, coming back home to see, you know, to see family. Several other things, we had London Abner meet Gumby one time. Of all things, we had Dow McKinnon as a guest. And we had Kay Lineker come back and reprise one of her roles, the role she played in the London Abner movie. Bob's Watson did that as well. Some years we didn't have a script, which I regret, but we had other things going on. We had anniversaries of London Abner movies that we would play. So whatever we did, we tailored it around our guest stars, like Dick Beals, Sam Edwards, Roby Lester, gee whiz. I know I'm leaving people out. Michael Hingson  43:52 Well, that's okay, but, but certainly a lot of fun. What? Yes, what? Cartoonist really influenced you as a child? Donnie Pitchford  44:01 Oh, wow. I would say the first thing I saw that got my attention was the Flintstones on on prime time television, you know, the Hanna Barbera prime time things certainly Walt Disney, the animation that they would run, that he would show, and the behind the scenes, things that would be on the Disney show, things like almost almost anything animated as a kid, got my attention. But Walter Lance, you know, on the Woody Woodpecker show used to have, he'd have little features about how animation was done, and that that inspired me, that that just thrilled me. And I read Fred lachel's Snuffy Smith Chester Gould's Dick Tracy. Tracy, which that was a that's why the Dick Tracy connection, later was such a big deal for me. Almost anything in the Sunday comics that was big. Foot. In other words, the cartoony, exaggerated characters are called, sometimes called Bigfoot, Bigfoot cartooning, or Bigfoot characters. Those were always the things I looked for, Bugs Bunny, any of the people that worked on those some were anonymous. And years later, I started learning the names of who drew Popeye, you know, like LZ seagar, the originator, or bud sagendorf or George Wildman, and later high eysman. But people like that were my heroes. Later on, I was interested in I would read the Batman comics, or I would see Tarzan in the newspaper. I admired the work of Russ Manning. Michael Hingson  45:49 Do you know the name Tom Hatton? Yes, I do. Yeah. Yes. Tom did Popeye shows on KTLA Channel Five when I was growing up, and he was famous for, as he described it, squiggles. He would make a squiggle and he would turn it into something. And he was right on TV, which was so much fun. Donnie Pitchford  46:09 We had a guy in Memphis who did the same thing. His name was, he's known as Captain Bill, C, A, P, you know, Captain Bill. And he did very much the same thing. He'd have a child come up, I think some, in some cases, they're called drools. Is one word for them. There was a yeah, in Tim hollis's area, there was cousin Cliff Holman who did that. And would he might have a kid draw a squiggle, and then he would create something from it right there on the spot, a very similar type of thing, or a letter of the alphabet, or your initials, that sort Michael Hingson  46:43 of thing. Yeah. Tom did that for years. It was fun. Of course, I couldn't see them, but he talked enough that I knew what was going on. It's kind of fun. My brother loved them, yeah? So later on, when you got to be a teenager and beyond what cartoonist maybe influenced you more? Donnie Pitchford  47:03 Well, I would have to say George, probably because I was corresponding with him, right? Also, I would see the work of Carl Barks, who created Uncle Scrooge McDuck and the Donald Duck comics and all that. His stuff was all in reprint at that time, he was still living, but I didn't know he could be contacted. I didn't try to write to it, right? Years later, years later, I did get an autograph, which was, was very nice. But those people, a lot of people, Neil Adams, who did Batman, the guys at Charlton Comics, Steve Ditko, who was the CO creator of spider man, but he had a disagreement with Stan Lee, and went back to Charlton Comics and just turned out 1000s of pages, but his work was was inspirational. Another was Joe Staton, who was working at Charleton comics, who I got to work with on several projects later on, and I would say just all of those guys that I was reading at the time. Pat Boyette was another Charlton artist. I tend to gravitate toward the Charlton company because their artists weren't contained in a house style. They were allowed to do their own style. They didn't pay as much. But a lot of them were either older guys that said, I'm tired of this, of the DC Marvel system. I want to just, you know, have creative freedom. Charlton said, come on. And so they would work there and less stress, less money, probably one guy named Don Newton started there and became a legend in the industry at other companies. So I found all of those guys inspiring, and I felt I could learn from all of them. Michael Hingson  48:59 Well, you always wanted to be a cartoonist. Did you have any other real career goals, like, was teaching a goal that you wanted to do, or was it just cartooning it? Donnie Pitchford  49:07 Well, it was just a secondary, you know, as I said, when I started, I thought, I'll just do that for a few years. You know, I didn't know it was going to be like 27 but I we had a lot of success. We had, I had some student groups that would enter video competitions. And for 20 straight years, we placed either first, second or third in state competition with one Summit, one entry, another or another every year. And that was notable. I mean, I give the kids the credit for that. But then about five or six of those years, we had what we call state championship wins, you know, we were like the number one project in the state of Texas. So, you know, we had some great success, I think, in that so a lot of years there, I really, you know, that was a blessing to me. Was that career, you. Well, it just, it just got to be too much time for change. After a while, Michael Hingson  50:05 was art just a talent that you had, and cartoon drawing a talent you had, or, I don't remember how much you said about did you have any real special training as such? Donnie Pitchford  50:14 Well, all of my training was, I just couldn't afford to go to a specialized school. You know, at one time, the Joe Kubert School opened just about the time I graduated high school, it was in New Jersey. I just couldn't make that happen, so I went to state colleges and universities and did the best I could. I took commercial art classes, drawing classes, design classes, even ceramics, which came in very handy when I did some sculpting here in the last eight or nine years and worked as an assistant to a sculptor named Bob harness who lives here in Carthage, but I never had any actual comic strip slash comic book training, so I learned as much of that as I could from guys like George wild. And then after I started the lemon Avenue comic strip, an artist named Joe, named Jim Amish, who worked for Marvel, did a lot of work for the Archie Comics. And tremendous anchor is his. He's really a tremendous anchor, and does a lot of ink work over other artists pencils. Jim would call and say, he said, I want to give you some advice. I'm like, okay, at 3am he's still giving me advice. So I'd go around for two or three days feeling like a failure, but then I would, I would think about all the lessons, you know, that he had told me. And so I learned a lot from Jim and tremendous, tremendous guy. And I would listen to what high, sometimes high would call up and say, Why did you use that purple beg your pardon. So it was fun. I mean, those fellows would share with me, and I learned a great deal from those guys. Michael Hingson  52:11 Are you in any way passing that knowledge on to others today? Donnie Pitchford  52:16 I don't know that I am. I've had an offer or two to do some teaching. I just don't know if I'm if I'm going to get back into that or not. Yeah, I'm so at this point, focused on, quote, unquote, being a cartoonist and trying to make that, that age five dream, a reality, that I'm not sure I'm ready to do that again. And you know, I'm not, I'm not 21 anymore. Michael Hingson  52:45 I didn't know whether you were giving advice to people and just sort of informally doing it, as opposed to doing formal teaching. Donnie Pitchford  52:51 Well, informally, yes, I mean, if anybody asks, you know, I'll be glad to share whatever I can. But yeah, I'm not teaching any classes at this point. Michael Hingson  53:01 Well, you have certainly taken lemon Abner to interesting places in New Heights. One, one thing that attracted me and we talked about it before, was in 2019, lemon Abner in Oz. That was fun. Donnie Pitchford  53:17 Well, the credit for that goes to Tim Hollis. Tim wrote that as a short story years ago when he was first interested in lemon Abner. And I don't know if he ever had that published through the International oz society or not. I don't remember, but Tim later turned that into a radio script when we had a batch of guests. This was in 2001 we had, let's see Sam Edwards, Dick Beals, Roby Lester and Rhoda Williams. And each of them had done something related to Oz, either the children's records or storybook records or animation or something. They were involved somewhere in some type of Oz adaptation. So Tim turned his short story into a radio script that we performed there at the convention. So that was a lot of fun. And then he suggested, Why don't I turn that into a comic strip story? So that's what we did. But that was fun, yeah, and we used the recordings of those people because they had given us permission, you know, to use a recording however we saw fit. The only problem is we had a mistake. The fellow that was running the sound had a dead mic and didn't know it. Oh, gosh. So some of them are bit Off mic in that audio, but we did the best. I did the best I could Michael Hingson  54:40 with it's it sounded good. I certainly have no complaints. 54:45 Thank you for that. Michael Hingson  54:47 I I said no complaints at all. I think it was really fun and very creative. And it's kind of really neat to see so much creativity in terms of all the stuff that that you do. As a cartoonist, me having never seen cartoons, but I learned intellectually to appreciate the talent that goes into it. And of course, you guys do put the scripts together every week, which is a lot of fun to be able to listen to them well. Donnie Pitchford  55:17 And that's what that was, the audience I hoped that we would would tap into right there and it, it was guys like you that would would talk to me and say, What am I going to do? You know, I can't see it. So that's why the audio idea came about. And it's taken on a life of its own, really. And we've got Mark Ridgway, who has created a lot of musical cues for us that we use and Michael Hingson  55:45 who plays the organ? Donnie Pitchford  55:47 That's Mark Ridgway. It is Mark, okay, yes, yes. And it's actually digital, I'm sure. I think it's a digital keyboard, Michael Hingson  55:55 yeah, but it is. It's a, it's a really good sounding one, though. Donnie Pitchford  55:59 Yes, yes. There are a few cues that I did, which probably are the ones that don't sound so good, like if we ever need really bad music. If you remember the story we did, and I don't remember the name of it, what do we call it anyway? Lum tries to start a soap opera. Think this was about a year ago. Yeah, and Cedric is going to play, I don't remember it was an organ or a piano, and I don't remember what he played, but whatever it was, I think was Mary Had Michael Hingson  56:32 a Little Lamb, Mary's, Mary Had a Little Lamb on the piano. Sort of kind played. Donnie Pitchford  56:35 It was played very badly, well that, yes, it was on purpose. When mom plays lum tries to play the saxophone. That was me, and I hadn't played this. I used to play the sax. In fact, I played in a swing orchestra here in Carthage, Texas for about five years back in from the early 90s. And so I had this idea, and I hadn't played the horn probably since, probably in 20 years, and his. So I got it out, and I thought, you know, it's gonna sound terrible because it needs maintenance, but it doesn't matter. It's lump playing it, so I got to play really badly. Michael Hingson  57:14 It was perfect. It was perfect, Donnie Pitchford  57:16 yeah, because it had to sound bad. Michael Hingson  57:19 How do y'all create all these different plots. I remember so many, like the buzzard, you know, and, oh yeah, that was fun. And so many. How do you come up with those? Donnie Pitchford  57:28 Well, I used to get some really good ideas while mowing the yard. Don't ask me, why? Or I get ideas. I get ideas in the weirdest thing, weirdest places. Sometimes I have ideas in the shower. You know, I said, I better write this down. Sometimes I'll wake up in the middle of the night with an idea, but there the ideas just come to me. Yeah? The buzzard was fun. I'd had that one. Pretty creative. Yeah, the one about, the one about, let me see. Oh, there was one we did, where wasn't the buzzard? What was that other one? I called the Whisper? Yeah, there was a strange voice that was coming lum thought it was coming from his radio. And he turns his radio off, and He still hears it, and it was a villain who had somehow hypnotized everyone so that they wouldn't see him and he would use his voice only. And then there's a character I came up with, and let me see Larry Gasman played it, and I called him Larry John Walden, and he was the only guy he was blind. He was the only guy that wasn't hypnotized because he couldn't see the you know, I use the old thing about the watch in front of the eyes. I mean, he was the only guy that wasn't hypnotized, so he wasn't fooled by the whisper, and he could track him, because his hearing was so acute that he was able to find him. In fact, I think he could hear his watch ticking or something like that. So he was the hero of that piece. But, well, I just, I just think up ideas and write them down. Tim Hollis has written some of the scripts, maybe three or four for me, I've adapted some scripts that London Abner did that were never broadcast or that were never recorded. Rather, I've adapted a few, written several, and I keep saying, Well, when I completely run out of ideas, I'll just have to quit. Michael Hingson  59:32 Well, hopefully that never happens. What? What are your future plans? Donnie Pitchford  59:38 Well, right now, there's nothing major in the works other than just maintaining the strip, trying to continue it, trying to make it entertaining, and hopefully doing a little work on the website and getting it into the hands of more people. And I'd like to increase. Least newspaper coverage, if at all possible. And because this thing doesn't, you know, it's got to pay for itself somehow. So you know, I'm not getting rich by any means. But you know, I want to keep it fun. I want to keep having fun with it. Hopefully people will enjoy it. Hopefully we can reach younger readers, listeners, and hopefully lemon Abner can appeal to even younger audiences yet, so that we can keep those characters going. Michael Hingson  1:00:29 Yeah, there's so much entertainment there. I hope that happens now in the the life of Donnie Pitchford. Is there a wife and kids? Donnie Pitchford  1:00:40 Yes, there's a wife of almost 40 years. We unfortunately don't have any children. We've almost feel like we adopted several children all the years we were teaching. We we've adopted several cats along the way. And so, you know, we've had cats as pets for almost ever, since we were married. But that's she's, she's great, you know, she's, she's been my best friend and supporter all these years. And we were members of first Methodist Church here in Carthage, Texas, and doing some volunteer work there, and helping to teach Sunday school, and very involved and active in that church. Michael Hingson  1:01:19 So I have a cat, and I hear her outside, not outside the house, but outside the the office here, she wants me to go feed her, and we, we shaved her yesterday because her hair gets long and Matt's very easily. So she got shaved yesterday. So she's probably seeking a little vengeance from that too, but, but my wife and I were married 40 years. She passed away in November of 2022 so it's me and stitch the cat and Alamo the dog, and Karen is monitoring us somewhere. And as I tell everyone, I've got to continue to be a good kid, because if I'm not, I'm going to hear about it. So I got to be good. But it's a lot of fun. Well, I want to thank you for being with us today. This has been a lot of fun. I've learned a lot, but it's just been great to have another podcast talking about old radio shows. And you said again, if people want to reach out, they can go to lemon Abner comics.com if people want to talk to you about doing any kind of cartooning or anything like that. What's the best way they can do that? Donnie Pitchford  1:02:24 Well, they can go to the London Abner dot lumen, Abner comics.com website, and there's a contact a link right there at the top of the page. So yeah, they can contact me through that. Probably that's the easiest way to do it. Michael Hingson  1:02:37 Okay, well, I want to thank you again for being here, and I want to thank all y'all out there. That's how they talk in Texas, right? It's all y'all for everybody. Donnie Pitchford  1:02:46 Well, some of them do, and some of them in Arkansas do too. Well, yeah. Michael Hingson  1:02:49 And then there's some who don't, yeah, y'all means everything, and it Speaker 1  1:02:54 don't, yeah, I don't think squire skimp says it that way. Michael Hingson  1:02:58 Well, Squire, you know, whatever it takes. But I want to thank you all for being here, and please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening or watching the podcast. Donnie would appreciate it. I would appreciate it, and also give us a review. We'd love to get your reviews, so please do that. If you can think of anyone else who ought to be a guest, and I think Donnie has already suggested a few. So Donnie as well, anyone else who ought to come on the podcast, we'd love it. Appreciate you introducing us, and you know, we'll go from there. And I know at some point in the future, the Michael hingson Group Inc is going to be a sponsor, because we've started that process for lemon. Abner, yes, thank you. Thank you. So I want to, I want to thank love and Squire for that 1:03:45 years. Well, it's been my pleasure. Michael Hingson  1:03:50 Well, thank you all and again, really, seriously, Donnie, I really appreciate you being here. This has been a lot of fun. So thank you for coming. Donnie Pitchford  1:03:58 Thank you. It's been a great honor. I've appreciated it very much. Michael Hingson  1:04:06 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

What happens when grief becomes the doorway to purpose? In this powerful conversation, I speak with Michaela Foster Marsh about transracial adoption, loss, creativity, and faith. Raised in Scotland with her adopted Ugandan brother during the civil rights era, Michaela shares how his tragic death led her to uncover his African roots, build a creative arts school in Uganda, and launch a charity supporting children with autism and disabilities. We explore dyslexia, music, resilience, and the spiritual nudges that shaped her journey. You will hear how grief can transform into service, how creativity can heal deep wounds, and why choosing hope is the most unstoppable decision you can make. Highlights: 00:10 Discover how growing up in a transracial adoption shaped identity and belonging. 13:19 Hear how a tragic house fire changed the course of a life. 16:03 Learn how a late dyslexia diagnosis brought clarity and confidence. 30:12 Follow the journey to Uganda to uncover hidden family roots. 43:03 Understand the mission to support children with autism and disabilities. 1:00:44 Receive one powerful reminder about finding light after deep loss. Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: Michaela Foster Marsh is an acclaimed musician, author, and founder of the Starchild Charity. She has released three internationally distributed albums, with music featured in television and film including Dawson’s Creek, The Matthew Shepard Story, and Breaking Amish. Michaela has performed at the Monaco International Film Festival, the Cannes International Film Festival, and was the last person invited to sing privately for Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. She is the author of the memoir Starchild — the remarkable true story of her journey to Uganda to find the biological family of her adopted brother, 18 years after his death. The book was published in the US and distributed globally. Starchild is currently being adapted into a feature documentary titled The Starchild Covenant, directed by BAFTA Award-winner Alex McCall. Michaela is also the founder and Executive Director of the Starchild Charity, which serves vulnerable children and women in Uganda and Scotland. The charity has built a School for Creative Arts in Vvumba, Uganda in memory of her brother, and a holistic centre for autism and disabilities in Scotland in memory of her late partner. She has received numerous honours for her humanitarian work, including a Prime Minister’s Award, a Peace and Unity Award, a Community Champion Award, and was a finalist for Scotswoman of the Year by the Evening Times in 2017. Currently, Michaela is working on several creative projects: ·       The Matoke Tree – A completed literary novel rooted in themes of race, adoption, religious oppression, and belonging, based in part on her own lived experiences. ·       The Starchild Covenant – A feature documentary based on her memoir Starchild, currently in production with BAFTA Award-winner Alex McCall. ·       Sunflowers at Christmas – A deeply personal memoir in progress, written in the wake of her partner’s death, exploring grief, love, and spiritual survival. ·       Orion: A Mythological Rock Opera – An immersive stage work in development, blending original music with myth, transformation, and rebirth, inspired by her album I Undid Orion’s Belt. Her work — across genres and geographies — explores the legacy of loss, the power of love, and the transformation of silence into story. Ways to connect with Michaela**:** Email:[email protected] Websites: ·       starchildcharity.org ·       michaelaonline.com Social: ·       Instagram: @fostermarsh ·       Facebook: Michaela Foster Marsh – singer-songwriter & author ·       Facebook: Starchild Charity ·       LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/michaelafostermarsh About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Courage is not loud. Sometimes it is a 13-year-old girl standing in a courtroom, promising to defend dignity no matter the cost.  Noura Ghazi’s life was shaped by detention, disappearance, and resistance long before she became a human rights lawyer. Growing up in Damascus with a father repeatedly imprisoned for political opposition, she chose early to confront injustice through law rather than violence. From defending political prisoners during the Syrian revolution to marrying her husband inside a prison and later founding No Photo Zone, Noura has built a life rooted in resilience, civil rights advocacy, and unwavering belief in human dignity.  Now living in France as a political refugee, she continues her work supporting families of detainees, survivors of torture, and the disappeared. Her story is not simply about survival. It is about choosing mindset over fear, purpose over despair, and love even in the shadow of loss. This conversation invites reflection on what it means to remain Unstoppable when freedom, justice, and even safety are uncertain.  Highlights:  00:07:06 – A defining childhood moment reveals how a confrontation in a Syrian courtroom shaped Noura’s lifelong commitment to defending political prisoners.  00:12:51 – The unpredictable nature of Syria’s exceptional courts exposes how justice without standards creates generational instability and fear.  00:17:32 – The emotional aftermath of her father’s release illustrates how imprisonment reshapes entire families, not just the person detained.  00:23:47 – Noura’s pursuit of human rights education demonstrates how intentional learning becomes an act of resistance in restrictive systems.  00:32:10 – The early days of the Syrian revolution clarify how violence escalates when peaceful protest is met with force.  00:37:27 – Her marriage inside a prison and the global advocacy campaign that followed reflect how personal love can fuel public courage.  00:50:59 – A candid reflection on PTSD reveals how trauma can coexist with purpose and even deepen empathy for others.  About the Guest:   Noura Ghazi’s life has been shaped by a single, unwavering mission: to defend dignity, freedom, and justice in the face of dictatorship. Born in Damascus into a family deeply rooted in political resistance, she witnessed firsthand the cost of speaking out when her father was detained, tortured, and disappeared multiple times. That lived experience became her calling. Since 2004, she has defended political prisoners before Syria’s Supreme Security State Court, and when the Syrian revolution began in 2011, she fully committed herself to supporting detainees and the families of the disappeared. Even after her husband, activist Bassel Khartabil Safadi, was detained, disappeared, and ultimately executed, she continued her advocacy with extraordinary resolve.  Forced into exile in 2018 after repeated threats and arrest warrants, Noura founded NoPhotoZone to provide legal aid, psychological support, and international advocacy for victims of detention, torture, enforced disappearance, and displacement across Syria, Lebanon, and Turkey. Her mission is not only to seek justice for the imprisoned and the missing, but to restore agency and hope to families living in uncertainty and trauma. Recognized globally for her courage and leadership, Noura remains committed to amplifying the voices of the silenced and ensuring that even in the darkest systems, human rights and human dignity are never forgotten.  https://nouraghazi.org/   https://nophotozone.org/   Book – Waiting by Noura Ghazi - https://www.lulu.com/shop/noura-ghazi-safadi/waiting/paperback/product-1jz2kz2j.html?page=1\&pageSize=4   About the Host:  Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.  Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.  https://michaelhingson.com   https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/   https://twitter.com/mhingson   https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson   https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/  Thanks for listening!  Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page.  Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!  Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can follow the podcast on Apple Podcasts or your favorite podcast app.  Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you are enjoying the show, please leave us a review on Apple Podcasts. Michael Hingson  00:09 Well, welcome everyone to another episode of unstoppable mindset. Today, we get to chat with Nora Ghazi, who lives in, I believe, France right now. She was born in Syria. She'll tell us about that, and she has had an interesting life, and I would say, a life that has had lots of challenges and some treachery along the way. But we'll get to all of that, and I will leave it to her to describe most of that, but I just want to tell you all we really appreciate you being here and hope you enjoy the episode. So Nora, how are you? Noura Ghazi  00:49 Thank you, Michael, for having me in this great broadcast, doing well. Michael Hingson  00:57 Well, there you go. Well, why don't we start? I love to start this way. Why don't you tell us kind of about the early Nora, growing up and so on, where you grew up, what anything you want to talk about, regarding being a younger person and all of that and and however we want to proceed, we'll go from there. Noura Ghazi  01:17 Okay, so since I was a child, my childhood wasn't like normal, like all the kids at my age, because my father was like a leader in opposition party against the previous Syrian regime. Michael Hingson  01:34 So you were born in Syria? Noura Ghazi  01:37 Yes, I work in Damascus. I'm from Damascus, but I have some like multiple origin that I'm proud of. But yes, I'm from Damascus. So since I was five years old, my father was disappeared and because he was wanted with other, like fellows at his party and other, let's say aliens, parties of opposition against the previous regime. So he disappeared for six years, then he was detained and transferred to what was named the supreme security state court. So it was during my adultness, let's say so since I was a child like I had at that time, only one sister, which is one year younger than me, we were moving a lot. We had no place to live. So my mother used to take us each few days to stay at some, someone place, let's say so it caused to us like changing schools all, all the time, which means changing friends. So it was very weird. And at that age, okay, I I knew the words of like cause, the words of leader or dictatorship. I used to say these words, but without knowing what does it mean. Then, when my father detained, it was his ninth detention. Actually, my mother was pregnant with my brother, so my brother was born while my father was in prison. And while he was in prison, the last time he disappeared for one year, three months, he was in like a kind of isolation in security facility. Then he was referred to this court. So in one of the sessions of the trials, I had a fight with the officer who, like who was leading the patrol that bring my father and other prisoners of conscience. So at the end of this fight, I promised my father and the officer that, okay, I will grow up and become a human rights lawyer and defend political prisoners, which I did at the end. Michael Hingson  04:05 So what? What was the officer doing? He was taking people to the court. Noura Ghazi  04:12 Yes, because Okay, so there is many kind of prisons now. They became like, more familiar to like public opinion because of, like 15 years of violence in Syria. So there was, like the the central civil prison in Damascus, which we call ADRA prison, and we have said, NIA jail, military prison. So those two prisons, they were like, holding detainees in them. So they they used to bring detainees to the court in busses, like a kind of military busses, with patrol of like civil police and military police. So the officer was like. Heading the patrol that was bringing my fathers from other prison. Michael Hingson  05:05 So you, so you, what was the fight about with the officer and your father and so on? What? How? Well, yeah, what was the fight? Noura Ghazi  05:16 It's very good question, although at that time, it was a very like scary situation, but now I laughed a lot about it. Okay, so they used to to catch all the prisoners in one chain with the handcuffs. So we used to come to hug and kiss my father before entering the court. So I was doing what I used to do during the trials, or just upon the trials, and then one of the policemen, like pushed me away. So I got nervous, and my father got nervous. So the officer provoked me. He was like a kind of insulting that my father is a detainee, and he is like he's coming to this court. So I, like I replied that I'm proud of my father and his friends what they are doing. So he somehow, he threats me to detain me like my father, and at that time, I was very angry, and I curse the father Assad just in on the like in the door, at the door of the court, and there was people and and Like all the the policemen, like they were just pointing their weapon to me, and there was some moments of silence. Then they took all the detainees into the court. So at this moment, while I'm entering the court behind them, I said, I will grow up and become a human rights lawyer to defend political prisoners. Michael Hingson  07:02 What did the officers say to that? Noura Ghazi  07:06 Because they used to look to us as because we are. We were against father Assad and the dictatorship, so they used to see us, even if we are kids, as enemies. Michael Hingson  07:22 Yeah, so the officer but, but he didn't detain you. I was Noura Ghazi  07:27 only 13 years, yeah, okay, they used to to arrest the kids, but they didn't. Michael Hingson  07:37 So did the officer react to your comment? You're going to grow up to become a civil rights lawyer? Noura Ghazi  07:43 He was shocked, was he? But I don't know if he knew that I become a human yes, there at the end, yeah. Michael Hingson  07:54 And meanwhile, what did your father do or say? Noura Ghazi  07:58 He was shocked also, but he was very proud, and until now, he like every time, because I'm also like, very close to to his friends who I used to visit in prison. Then I become a human rights lawyer, and I was the youngest lawyer in Syria. I was only 22 years old when I started to practice law. So during the the revolution in Syria, which started in 2011 some of his friends were detained, and I was their lawyer also. So I'm very close to them. So until now, they remember this story and laugh about it, because no one could curse or say anything not good about father Assad or or the family, even in secret. So it's still, like, very funny, and I'm still like, stuck somehow in, like, in this career and the kind of activism I'm doing, because just I got angry of the officer 30 years ago. So at this, at that moment, I've decided what I will be in the future. I'm just doing it well. Michael Hingson  09:20 From everything I've read, it sounds like you do a good job. Noura Ghazi  09:25 I cannot say it's a job, because usually you you do a job, you get paid for your job, you go at a certain time and come back at a certain time. You do certain tasks. But for me, it's like a continuing fight, non violent fight, of course, for dignity, for freedom, for justice, right, for reveal the truth of those who were disappeared and got missing. So yes, until now, I'm doing this, so I don't have that. Are the luxury to to be paid all the time, or to be to have weekends or to work until like certain hour at night. I cannot say I'm enjoying it, but this is the reason why I'm still alive, because I have a motive to help and support other people who are victims to dictatorship and violence. Michael Hingson  10:25 So your father went into court and what happened? Noura Ghazi  10:31 He was sentenced. At the end, he was sentenced to three years in prison. And it's a funny story, another funny story, actually, because, like the other latines at that at that trial, like it was only my father and other two prisoners who sent who were sentenced to three years in prison, while other people, the minimum was seven years in Prison, until 15 years in prison. So my mother and us, we felt like we are embarrassed and shy because, okay, our father will will be released like in few months, but other prisoners will stay much longer. So it's something very embarrassing to our friends who whom their fathers got sentenced to like more. Michael Hingson  11:30 Did you ever find out why it was only three years? Noura Ghazi  11:33 We don't know because it's an exceptional court, so it's up to the judge and the judge at that time, like it's it's very similar to what is happening now and what happened after 2011 so it's a kind of continuing reality in in Syria since like 63 which was the first time my father was detained. It was in 63 just after the what they called the eighth March revolution. So my father was only 11 years old when he was detained the first time because he participated in a protest. So it's up to the judge. It's not like a real court with like the the fair trial standards. So it's it's only once you know, the judge said the sentences for each one. So two prisoners got confused. They couldn't differentiate like Which sentence to whom, so they asked like again, so he forgot, so he said them again in different way. So it's something like, very spontaneously, yeah, very just moody, not any standard. Michael Hingson  12:51 Well, so Did your father then serve the three years and was released. Or what happened? Noura Ghazi  12:58 He was released on the day that he should be released, he disappeared for few days. We didn't know what happened. Then he was released. Finally he came. We used to live with my my grandma, so I was the one who opened the door, and I saw just my father. So we we knew later that okay, he was moved again to a security facility because he refused to sign a paper that say that he will not practice any oppositional action against the authority. So he refused, yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  13:43 Well, I mean, I'm sure there's, there's a continuing story, what happened to him after that. So he came home, Noura Ghazi  13:53 he came out to my grandma. It was a big surprise, like full of joy, but full of tears as well. Michael Hingson  14:01 And you're you were 16 now, right? Noura Ghazi  14:04 I was when he was raised. I was 15, yeah, okay, yeah. And my sister was 14. My brother was two years and a half, so for him, okay, the father is this person that we visit behind bars every Monday, not this one who stay with us. So for him, it was weird. For my brother, he was very like little kid to understand. Then my father went to to see his parents as well. Then we came back to our apartment that we couldn't live more than few months because my father was detained. So at this night, everything was very, very, very new, like because before the three years he he was disappeared for six years, so there was. Nine years. We don't live with my father, so my brother used to sleep just next to my mom, actually my sister and me, but okay, we were like a teenager, so it's okay. So my brother couldn't sleep. Because why he keep, he kept asking why my father is sleeping with us while he's not with his friend at that place. And he was traumatized for many days. But usually when, like a political prisoner released, usually, like, we have a kind of two, three weeks of people visiting the family to say, Okay, it's it's good. We're happy for you that he was released. So the first two, three weeks were full of people and like, social events, etc. Then the, the real problem started. So my father studied law, but he was fired from university for security reasons at the the last year of his study, and as he was sentenced so he couldn't work, my mother used to work, and so like suddenly he started to feel that okay, He's not able to work. He's not able to fulfill the needs of his family. He's not able to spend on the family. The problems between him and my mother started. We couldn't as like my sister and me as teenagers. We couldn't really accept him. We couldn't see that. He's the same person that we used to visit in prison. He was very friendly. We used to talk about everything in life, including the very personal things that usually daughters don't speak with fathers about it. But then he became a father, which we we we weren't used to it, and he was shocked also. So I can say that this, this situation, at least on emotional and psychological level, for me, it lasted for 15 years. I couldn't accept him very well, even my my sister and and the brother and it happens to all like prisoners, political prisoners, especially who spent long time in prison. Michael Hingson  17:32 So now is your father and well, are your father and your mother still alive? Or are they around? Noura Ghazi  17:41 They are still alive. They are still in Damascus, Michael Hingson  17:44 and they're still in Damascus. Yes, how is I guess I'll just ask it now, how is Syria different today than it was in the Assad regime, Noura Ghazi  17:56 like most of Syrians, and now we should differentiate about what Syrians will talk. We're talking so like those Syrians, like the majority of Syrians, and I'm meaning here, I'm sorry, I shouldn't be very direct. Now, the Arab Sunni Syrians, most of them, they are very happy. They are calling what happened in in last eight December, that it's the deliberation of Syria, but for other minorities, like religious or ethnic minorities, of course, it's almost the same. For me, I feel that okay, we have the same dictatorship now, the same corruption, the same of like lack of freedom of expression. But the the added that we have now is that we have Islamist who control Syria. We have extremists who control Syria. They intervene even in personal freedoms. They they are like, like, they are committing crimes against minorities, like it started last March, against alawed. It started last July, against Druze. Now it is starting against Kurdish, and unfortunately, the international community turning like an attorney, like, okay. They are okay with with it, because they want, like their own interest, their own benefits. They have another crisis in the world to take care and to think about, not Syria. So the most important for the international community is to have a stable situation in Syria, to be like, like, no kind of like, no fight zone in the Middle East, and they don't care about Syrian people. And this is very frustrating for those who. Who have the same beliefs that I have. Michael Hingson  20:04 So in a lot of ways, you're saying it hasn't, hasn't really changed, and only the, only the faces and names have changed, but not the actions or the results Noura Ghazi  20:16 the faces and names, and most important, the sects, has changed. So it was very obvious for me that most of Syrians, they don't mind to be controlled by dictator. They only mind what is the sect of this dictator? Michael Hingson  20:35 Unfortunately. Well, yeah. Well, let's go back to you. So your father was released, and you had already made your decision about what you wanted to be, what how does school work over there? Did you go to a, what we would call a high school? Or how does all that work? Noura Ghazi  20:58 Yeah, high school, I was among the like the student who got the highest score in Damascus. I was the fourth one on Damascus when I finished. We call it back like Baccalaureate in Syria, which came from French. And I studied law, and I was also very, like, really hard, hard study person. So I was graduated in four years. Actually, nobody in Syria used to finish studying law in Damascus University only in four years. Like some people stayed more than 10 years because it it was very difficult, and it's different than like law college or law school or university of law, depending on the country, than other countries, because we only like study law. Theoretically, we don't have any practice because we were 1000s of students, it was the like the maximum university that include students. And I registered immediately in the Bar Association in Damascus, and I started because we have, like, a kind, it's, it's similar to stage for two years, like under the supervision of another lawyer who was my uncle at the first and then we we have to choose a topic in certain domain of flow, to write a kind of book which is like, it's similar to thesis, to apply it, to approve it, and then to have the kind of interactive examination, then we have the the final graduated. So all of them to be like a practice lawyer. It's around six years, a little bit more. So my specialist was in criminal law, and my thesis, what about what we call the the impossible crime. It was complicated topic. I have to say that in Syria at that time, I'm talking about end of of 90s, beginning of 2000 so we don't have any kind of study related to human rights. We weren't allowed even to spell this word like human rights. So then in 2005 and 2006 I started to study human rights under international laws related to human rights in Jordan. So I became like a kind of certified human rights defenders and the trainer also, Michael Hingson  23:47 okay, and so you said you started practice and you finished school when you started practice, when you were 22 Yes, okay, I'm curious what, what were things like after September 11, of course, you know, we had the terrorist attacks and so on. Did any of that affect anything over in Syria, where you lived, Noura Ghazi  24:15 of course, like, we stayed talking, watching the news for like four months, like until now we remember, like September 11. But you know, I now when I remember, it was a shock, usually for the Arab world, or Arab people like America is against the Arab world. So everything happened against it was like, this was like, let's say 2030, years ago. Everything that caused any harm to America, they celebrate it. So that. At that time, I was 19 years old, and okay, it's the first time we we hear that a person who was terrorist do like is doing this kind in in us, which is like a miracle for us. But then I started to to think, okay, they it's not an army. They are. There are civilians. Those civilians could be against the the policies of the US government. They could be like, This is not a kind of fight for freedom or for rights or for any like, really, like, fair cause. This is a terrorist action against civilians. And then we started, I'm very lucky because I'm from very educated family. So we started to think about, like, okay, bin Laden. And like, which we have a president from Qaeda now in Syria, like, you can imagine how I feel now. Like, I Okay, all the world is against al Qaeda, and they celebrated that the President in Syria is from al Qaeda. So it's, it's very it's, it's, really, it's not logical at all. But the funniest thing that happened, because, like, the name of Usama bin Laden, was keeping on every like, every one tongue. So I have my my oldest uncle. His name is Usama, and he lives in Germany for 40, more than 40 years, actually. So my brother was a child, and he started to cry, and he came to my mother and asked her, I'm afraid, is my uncle the same Usama? So we were laughing all, and we said, No, it's another Usama. This is the Usama. This is Osama bin Laden, who is like from is like a terrorist group, etc. But like this unfortunate incident started to bring to my mind some like the concept of non violence, the concept of that, okay, no civilian in any place in the world should be harmed for any reason, Because we never been told this in Syria and mostly in most of of countries like the word fight is very linked to armed fights, which I totally disagree with. Michael Hingson  27:56 Well, the when people ask me about September 11 and and so on. One of the things that I say is this wasn't a religious war. This wasn't a religious attack. This was terrorist. This was, I put it in terms of of Americans. These were thugs who decided they wanted to have their way with people. But this is not the way the Muslim the Islamic religion is there is peaceful and peace loving as as anyone, and we really need to understand that. And I realize that there are a lot of people in this country who don't really understand all about that, and they don't understand that. In reality, there's a lot of peace loving people in the Middle East, but hopefully we'll be able to educate people over time, and that's one of the reasons I tell the story that I do, because I do believe that what happened is 19 people attacked the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and so on, and they don't represent the the typical viewpoint of most people, religious wise in the Middle East. And I can understand why a lot of people think that the United States doesn't like Arabs, and I'm not sure that that's totally true, but I can appreciate what you're saying. Noura Ghazi  29:28 Yeah, I'm talking about specific communities actually, who they are, like totally against Israel, and they believe that you us is supporting Israel. So that's that's why they have their like this like attitude towards us and or like that US is trying to invest all the resources in the in the Middle East, etc. But what you were mentioning. Is really very important, because those 19 persons, they like kind of they, they cause the very bad reputation for for Muslims, for Middle Eastern because for for for other people from other countries, other culture or other religion, they will not understand that, okay, that, as you said, they don't represent Muslims. And in all religions, we have the extremist and we have those peaceful persons who keep their their religion as a kind of direct connection with God. They respect everyone, and normally in in in Syria, most of of the population like this, but now having a terrorist as a President, I'm not able to believe how there is a lot of Syrians that support him. Mm, hmm. Because when Al Qaeda started in Syria at the beginning, under the name of japet Al Nusra, then, which with July, who is now Ahmad Al shara, was the leader, and he's the leader of the country now most of Syrians, especially the the the Sunni Syrians, were against this, like terrorist groups, because the most harm they cause is for for Sunnis in Syria, because all other minorities, they will think about every Sunni that they, He or she, like, believe and behave like those, which is totally not true. Michael Hingson  31:47 Yeah, I hear you. Well, so September 11 happened, and then eventually you started doing criminal law. And if we go forward to what 2011 with the Syrian revolution? Yeah, and so what was, what was that revolution about? Noura Ghazi  32:10 It was okay. It started as a reaction against detaining kids from school. Okay, of course, this like the Syrian people, including me, we were very affected and inspired about what was happening in Egypt and Tunisia. But okay, so the security arrested and tortured those kids in their south of Syria. So people came out in demonstration to ask for their freedom and the security attack those protesters with, like, with weapons, so couple of persons died. So then it was, it started to be like a kind of revolution, let's say, yeah, the the problem for me, for lot of people like me, that the the previous Syrian regime was very violent against protesters and the previous president, Bashar Assad, he refused to listen to to to those people, he started to, like dissipated from the reality. So this like, much violence that was against us, like, I remember during some protest, there was not like, small weapon toward us. There was a tank that bombing us as protesters, peaceful, non violent, non armed protesters. So this violence led to another violence, like a kind of reaction by those who defected from the army, etc. And here, my father used to say, when the opposition started to to carry weapon in a country that, like the majority of it, is from certain religion, this could lead to a kind of Jihadist methodology. And this is what happened. So for for people like us, which we are very little comparing of like, the other beliefs of other people like we were, we started to be against the Syrian regime, then against the jihadist groups, then against that, like a kind of international, certain International, or, let's say original intervention, like Iran and Russia. So we were fighting everywhere, and no one. No one wanted us because those like educated, secular, non violent people, they. Form a kind of danger for every one of those parties. But what happened with me is that I met my late husband during a revolution at the very early of 2011 and having the relationship with me was my own revolution. So I was living on parallel like two revolution, a personal one and the public one. And then, like he was detained just two weeks before our our wedding. He was disappeared, actually, for nine months, then he was moved to the same prison that my father was in, to the central prison in Damascus that we got married in prison by coincidence. I don't know if coincidence is the right word in this situation, but my late husband was a very well known programmer and activist. So we were he was kind of, let's say, famous, and I was a lawyer and lawyer that defend human rights defenders and political prisoners. And the husband was detained, so I used to visit him in prison and visit other prisoners that I was their lawyers. And because my like, we have this personal aspect that okay, the couple that got married in prison and that, okay, I'm activist as a lawyer, and my late husband was a well known programmer. So we created a very huge campaign, a global campaign. So we invested this campaign to like, to shed the light about detention, torture, disappearance, exceptional courts, then, like also summary execution in Syria. So then, after almost three years of visiting him regularly, he disappeared again in 2015 and in 2017 I knew that he was sentenced to death, and I knew the exact date of his execution, just in 2018 which was two days ago. It was October 5. So this is what happened then. I had to leave Syria in 2018 so I left to Lebanon. Michael Hingson  37:27 So you left Syria and went to Lebanon? Noura Ghazi  37:33 Yes, the The plan was to stay only six months in Lebanon because I was wanted and I was threatened like I lived a terrible life, really, like lot of Syrians who were activists also, but the plan was that I will stay in Lebanon for six months, then I will leave to to UK because I had A scholarship to get a master in international law. But only two months after I left to Lebanon, I decided to stay in Lebanon to establish the organization that I'm I'm leading until now, which was a project between my late husband and me. Its name is no photo zone, so it was a very big decision, but I'm not regrets. Michael Hingson  38:23 You, you practice criminal law, you practiced human rights, you visited your your fiance, as it were, and then, well, then your husband in prison and so on. Wasn't all of that pretty risky for you? Noura Ghazi  38:42 Yes, very risky. I, I lived in under like, different kind of risk. Like, okay, I have the risk that, okay, I'm, I'm doing my activism against the previous regime publicly because I also, I was co founder of the First Family or victim Association in Syria families for freedom. So we, we were, like, doing a kind of advocacy in Europe, and I used to come back to Syria, so I was under this risk, but also I was under the risk of the like, going to prison, because the way to prison and the prison itself were under bombing. It was in like a point that separate the opposition militias and the regime militias. So they were bombing each other and bombing the prison and bombing the way to prison. So for three years, and specifically for like, in, let's say, 2014 specifically, I was among, like, I was almost the only lawyer that visited the prison, and I, I didn't mind this. I faced death more than 100 time, only on the way to prison, two times the person next to me in the like transportation. It's a kind of small bus. He died and fell down on me, but I had a strong belief that I will not die, Michael Hingson  40:21 and then what? Why do you think that they never detained you or or put you in prison? Do you have any thoughts? Noura Ghazi  40:29 I had many arrests weren't against me, but each time there was something that solve it somehow. So the first couple of Earths weren't actually when, when my late husband was detained, he he made a kind of deal with them that, okay, he will give all the information, everything about his activism in return. They, they canceled the arrest warrant against me. Then literally, until now, I don't know how it was solved. Like I, I had to sleep in garden with my cats for many nights. I i spent couple of months that I cannot go to any like to family, be house or to friend house, because I will cause problem for them, my my parents, my brother and sister, and even, like my sister, ex, until like just three months before the fall of the Syrian regime, they were under like, investigation By the security, lot of harassment against them so, but I don't know, like, I'm, I'm survive for a reason that I don't really realize how, Michael Hingson  41:52 wow, it, it's, it certainly is pretty amazing. Did you ever write a book or anything about all of this, Noura Ghazi  42:02 I used to write, always the only book like, let's say, literature or emotional book. It was about love in prison. Its name is waiting. And I wrote this book in English and basil. My late husband translated it. Sorry. I wrote it in Arabic, and Basset translated it into English in prison. So it was a process of smuggling the poems in Arabic and smuggling the them in English, again out of the prison. And we published the book online just after basil disappearance in 2015 then we created the the hard copies, and I did the signature in in Beirut in, like, early 2018 but like, it's, it's online, and it's a very, like light book, let's say very romantic. It's about love in prison. I'm really keen to write again, like maybe a kind of self narrative or about the stories that I lived and i i I heard during my my journey. Unfortunately, like to write needs like this a little stable situation, but I did write many like legal or human rights book or like guides or studies, etc. Michael Hingson  43:34 Now is waiting still available online? Noura Ghazi  43:37 Yes, it's still available online. Michael Hingson  43:40 Okay? It would be great if you could, if you have a picture of the book cover, if you could send that to me, because I'd like to put that in the notes. I would appreciate it if you would, okay, for sure. But anyway, so the the company you founded, what is it called Noura Ghazi  44:02 it's a non government, a non profit organization. Its name is no photo zone. Michael Hingson  44:07 And how did you come up with that name? Noura Ghazi  44:12 It was Vasil who come up with this name, because our main focus is on prisoners of conscious and disappeared. So for him, it was that okay, those places that they put disappeared in them. They are they. There is no cameras to show the others what is happening. So we should be the the like in the place of cameras to tell the world what is happening. So that's why no photos on me, like, means that prisons or like unofficial detention centers, because they're it's an all photo zone, right? Michael Hingson  44:54 And no photo zone is is still operating today. Noura Ghazi  44:58 It's still operating. We are extending our work, although, like we have lots of financial challenges because of, like, funds issues, but for us, the main issue, we provide legal services to victims of torture, detention, disappearance and their families. So we operate in Syria, Lebanon and Turkey. We are a French woman led organization, but we have registration in Turkey and Syria, and like in seven years now, almost seven years, we could provide our services to more than 3000 families who most of them are women, and they are responsible about kids who they don't have fathers. So we defend political prisoners. We search the disappeared. We provide the legal services related to personal and civil status. We provided the services related to identification documents, because it's a very big issue in Syria. Beside we provide rehabilitation, like full rehabilitation programs for survivors of detention or torture, and also advocacy. Of course, it's a very important part of our our work, even with the lack of fund, we've decided in the team, because most of the team, or all the team, they they were themselves victims of detention, or family members of victims, even the non Syrian because we have many non Syrian member in the team. So for us, it's a cause. It's not like a work that we're doing and getting paid. So we're, we're suffering this this year with the fund issues, because there is a lot of change related to the world and Syrian issues, which affected the fund policies. So hopefully we'll be, we'll be fine next year, hopefully, and we're trying to survive with our beneficiaries this year, Michael Hingson  47:02 yeah, well, you, you started receiving, and I assume no photo zone started receiving awards, and eventually you moved out of Lebanon. Tell me more about all of that. Noura Ghazi  47:16 During my journey, I I got many international recognition or a word, including two by Amnesty International. But after almost two years, like just after covid, like the start of covid, I was thinking that I should have another residence permit in another country because, like, it became very difficult for Syrians to get a residence in Lebanon. So I I moved to Turkey, and I was between Lebanon and Turkey. Then I got a call from the French Embassy in Turkey telling me that there is a new kind of a word, which is Marianne award, or Marianne program, that initiated by the French president. And they it's for human rights defenders across the world, and they will give this award for 15 human rights defender from 15 country. And I was listening, I thought they want me to nominate someone. Then they told me that the French government are honored to choose you as a Syrian human rights defender. So it was a program for six months, so I moved to Paris with my cat and dog. Then they extended the program and to become nine months. And at the almost at the end of the program, the both of Lebanese and Turkish authorities refused to renew my residence permit, so I had to stay in France to apply for asylum and a political refugee currently. Michael Hingson  49:10 And so you're in France. Are you still in Paris? Noura Ghazi  49:13 I'm still yes in Paris. I learned French very fast, like in four months. Okay, I'm not perfect, but I learned French. Michael Hingson  49:25 So what did your dog and cat think about all that? Sorry, what did your dog and cat think about moving to France? Noura Ghazi  49:33 They are French, actually, originally, they are friends. Michael Hingson  49:36 Oh, there you go. Noura Ghazi  49:38 My, my poor dog had like he he was English educated, so we used to communicate in English. Then when I was still in Lebanon, I thought, okay, a lot of Syrians are coming to my place, and they don't speak English, so I have to teach him Arabic. Then we moved to Turkish. So I had to teach him Turkish. Then we came to. France. So now my dog understand more than four languages, Michael Hingson  50:06 good for him, and and, of course, your cat is really the boss of the whole thing, right? Noura Ghazi  50:12 Of course, she is like, the center of the universe, Michael Hingson  50:16 yeah, yeah, just ask her. She'll tell you. And she's Noura Ghazi  50:20 very white, so she is 14 years. Oh, it's old, yes. Michael Hingson  50:29 Well, I have a cat we rescued in 2015 we think she was five then. So we think that my cat is 15 going on 16. So, and she moves around and does very well. Noura Ghazi  50:46 Yeah, my cat as well. Michael Hingson  50:49 Yeah. Well, that's the way it should be. So with all the things that you've been dealing with and all the stress, have you had? Noura Ghazi  50:59 PTSD, yes, I started, of course, like it's the minimum, actually, I have PTSD and the TSD, and I started to feel, or let's say, I could know that the what is happening with me is PTSD two years ago. I before, like, couple of months before, I started to feel like something unusual in my body, in my mind. At the beginning, we thought there is a problem in the brain. Then the psychologist and psychiatrist said that it's a huge level of PTSD, which is like the minimum, and like, we should start the journey of of treatment, which is like the behavior treatment and medical treatment as well. Like, some people could stay 10 years. Some people need to go to hospital. It's not the best thing, but sometimes I feel I'm grateful that I'm having PTSD because I'm able to deal with people who are in the same situation. I could feel them, understand them, so I could help them more, because I understand and as a human rights defender and like victim of lot of kind of violations, so I'm very aware about the like, let's call it the first aid, the psychological first aid support. And this is helpful somehow. Okay, I'm suffering, but this suffering is useful for others Michael Hingson  52:47 well and clearly, you are at a point where you can talk about it, which says a lot, because you're able to deal with it well enough to be able to talk about it, which I think is probably pretty important, don't you think? Noura Ghazi  53:03 Yeah, actually, the last at the first time I talked about it very publicly in a conference in Stockholm, it was last October, and then I thought it's important to talk about it. And I'm also thinking to do something more about PTSD, especially the PTSD related to to prisons, torture, etc, this kind of violations, because sharing experience is very important. So I'm still thinking about a kind of certain way to to like, to spread my experience with PTSD, especially that I have lot of changes in in my life recently, because I got married again, and even the the good incident that people who have PTSD, even if they have, like good incident, but it cause a kind of escalation with PTSD, Michael Hingson  54:00 yeah, but you got married again, so you have somebody you can talk with. Noura Ghazi  54:06 Yes, I got married five months ago. The most important that I could fall in love again. So I met my husband in in Paris. He's a Lebanese artist who live in Paris. And yeah, I have, I have a family now, like we have now three cats and a dog and us as couple. But it's very new for me, like this kind of marriage, that a marriage which I live with a partner, because the marriage I used to is that visit the husband in prison. I'm getting used to it. Michael Hingson  54:43 And just as always, the cat runs everything, right? Yes, of course, of course. So tell me about the freedom prize in Normandy. Noura Ghazi  54:55 Oh, it was like one of the best thing I had in my life. I. Was nominated for the freedom prize, which is launched by usually they are like young people who who nominate the the nominees for this prize, but it's launched by the government of Normandy region in France and the International Institute for Human Rights and peace. So among hundreds of files and, like many kind of round of, like short listing, there was me, a Belarusian activist who is detained, and a Palestinian photographer. So like, just knowing that I was nominated among more than 700 person was a privilege for me. The winner was the Palestinian photographer, but it was the first time they invite the other nominee to the celebration, which was on the same date of like liberating Normandy region during the Second World War. So I chose, I thought for my for couple of days about what I will wear, because I need to deliver a message. So I, I I came up with an idea about a white dress with 101 names in blue. Those names are for disappeared and detainees in Syria. So like there was, there was seven persons who worked on this dress, and I had the chance to wear it and to deliver my message and to give a speech in a very important day that even like those fighters during the Second World War who are still alive, they they came from us. They came from lot of countries. I had the privilege to see them directly, to touch them, to tell them thank you, and to deliver my message in front of an audience of 4500 persons. And it's like I love this dress, and like this event was one of the best thing I had in my life. Michael Hingson  57:21 Do you have a picture of you in the dress? Yes, I would think you do. Well, if you want, we'd love to put that in the show notes as well, especially because you're honoring all those people with the names and so on. Kind of cool. Well, okay, so, so Syria, you're, you're saying, in a lot of ways, hasn't, hasn't really changed a whole lot. It's, it's still a lot of dictatorship oriented kinds of things, and they discriminate against certain sex and and so on. And that's extremely unfortunate, because I don't think that that's the impression that people have over here, Noura Ghazi  58:02 exactly I had a chance to visit Syria, a kind of exceptional visit by the French government, because, as political refugees were not allowed to visit our country of origin. And of course, like after eight years, like out of Syria after six years without seeing my family. Of course, I was very happy, but I was very traumatized, and I I came back to Paris in in July 21 and since that time, I feel I'm not the same person before going to Syria. I'm full of frustration. I feel that, okay, I just wasted 14 years of my life for nothing. But hopefully I'm I'm trying to get better because okay, I know, like much of human rights violations mean that my kind of work and activism is more needed, yeah, Michael Hingson  59:03 so you'll so you'll continue to speak out and and fight for freedom. Noura Ghazi  59:10 Yes, I continue, and I will continue fighting for freedom, for dignity, for justice, for civil rights, and also raising awareness about PTSD and how we could invest even our pain for the sake of helping others. Michael Hingson  59:29 Well, I want to tell you that it's been an honor to have you on the podcast, and I am so glad we we got a chance to talk and to do this because having met you previously, in our introductory conversation, it was very clear that there was a story that needed to be told, and I hope that a lot of people will take an interest, and that it will will allow what you do to continue to grow, if people would like to reach out to you. And and help or learn more. How do they do that? Noura Ghazi  1:00:05 We you have the the link of my website that people could connect me, because it includes my my email, my personal email, and I always reply. So I'm happy to to talk with the to contact with people, and it also include all the all my social media, Michael Hingson  1:00:23 right? What? What's the website for? No photo zone. Noura Ghazi  1:00:27 It's no photo zone.org. No photo zone.org. Michael Hingson  1:00:30 I thought it was, but I just wanted you to say it. I wanted you to say it. Noura Ghazi  1:00:35 It's included in my website. Michael Hingson  1:00:37 Yeah, I've got it all and and it will all be in the show notes, but I just thought I would get you to say no photo zone.org Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a wonderful time to have a chance to talk, and I appreciate you taking the time to, I hope, educate lots of people. So thank you very much for doing that, and I want to thank all of you for listening and watching. We'd love you to give us a five star rating. Give us a review. We really appreciate ratings and reviews. So wherever you're watching or listening to this podcast, please give us a five star rating. Please review the podcast for us. We value that, and I know that Nora will will appreciate that as well. Also, if you if you know any guests, and Nora you as well, if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on the podcast, we would really appreciate it. If you would let us know you can reach me. At Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts about the podcast. So Nora, very much my I want to thank you again. This has been great. Thank you very much for being here. Noura Ghazi  1:01:56 Thank you Michael, and thank you for those who are listening, and we're still in touch.

What if blindness wasn’t a limitation but a blessing? In this conversation, I talk with Mel Stephens from Australia, a third-generation blind woman living with Rod Cone Dystrophy who believes blindness has given her more gifts than loss. We explore accessibility, guide dogs, mainstream education, Braille literacy, technology, YouTube, independence, discrimination, and what it really means to have a different ability. Mel shares how she built a life around horses, travel, cruising, and running a business, while pushing back against outdated views of blindness. You will hear honest insights about mindset, community acceptance, blind skills, and why learning Braille and orientation mobility still matter in a high-tech world. I believe you will find this both practical and deeply encouraging. Highlights: 00:09 – Hear why blindness is described as a blessing rather than a tragedy. 03:09 – Discover why the real challenge is public perception, not vision loss itself. 11:13 – Learn how mainstream schooling built independence and strong blind skills. 25:17 – Explore the difference between disability and different ability. 50:20 – Understand why relying too much on technology can weaken core mobility skills. 1:01:13 – Get direct advice for anyone losing eyesight or raising a blind child. Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: Mel Stephens is a third-generation blind YouTuber from Australia. With parents who are both blind or vision impaired, she grew up learning to stand on her own two feet. A proud guide dog handler, Mel is now teamed up with her second dog, Penelope. She’s always been an animal lover—mad for cats, dogs, and horses—and has two of her own, Maggie and Abby. To her knowledge, she’s one of the only blind Aussies to rescue and rehabilitate a horse, which she reckons is a pretty fair dinkum achievement. A country girl through and through, Mel has spent most of her life in towns with fewer than 5,000 people, and there’s no way you’ll catch her living in the big smoke. That said, she does love a yearly trip to Sydney, where she soaks up the atmosphere of the footy and the city buzz—though after a week she’s happy to nick off back to the quiet life. When she’s not looking after her animals or working as a PA for an orientation and mobility instructor, Mel’s usually off travelling. She’s train-mad—can’t get enough of them—and throws in the odd cruise for good measure. Her adventures are made possible thanks to skills she’s built since she was a kid, including mental mapping, echolocation, and her trusty guide dog partnership. Mel doesn’t reckon blindness is a disability at all—it’s just another way of seeing the world. With a positive, no-worries attitude, she loves showing others that people who are blind or vision impaired can do pretty much anything if given the chance. Ways to connect with Mel**:** Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/melsblindlife/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/category/Personal-Blog/Mels-Blind-Life-1326898004158153/ Blog: https://melsblindlife.wordpress.com/author/mickmate9/ Guide Dog Penelope Instagram: https://instagram.com/guidedogpenelope?utm_medium=copy_link Guide Dog Penelope FaceBook: https://www.facebook.com/pennyguidedog/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What happens when a thriving performing arts career collides with a rare autoimmune disease? In this episode, I talk with Teresa Hill-Putnam about resilience, Myasthenia Gravis, positive thinking, and building an unstoppable mindset. Teresa owned a large performing arts school for 35 years before COVID and health risks forced her to pivot to virtual teaching. She shares how she was diagnosed after respiratory failure, how she learned to take life one day at a time, and why she believes in flipping the script when challenges hit. We also discuss empowerment coaching, motivational speaking, raising confident children, and her nonprofit, Performers with Purpose Foundation. Teresa’s story proves that setbacks can become stepping stones when you choose growth, purpose, and persistence. I believe you will find this conversation both practical and inspiring. Highlights: 00:56 Learn how early dance training helped her overcome childhood shyness and build confidence. 05:03 Hear how a sudden health collapse led to a myasthenia gravis diagnosis. 12:33 Discover why taking one day at a time became her key to resilience. 20:05 Understand why she refused to quit despite being told to go on disability. 22:58 See how COVID forced a rapid shift to virtual teaching and musicals. 56:50 Learn how her nonprofit now provides thousands of Christmas gifts to children in need. Top of Form Bottom of Form About the Guest: After Owning and Directing a large performing Arts School for over 35 years, Teresa Hill-Putnam is now a Performance Coach & Empowerment CoachinLos Angeles, California. Teresa is also a published author, Motivational Speaker, and Special Events Coordinator. Teresa has been teaching since 1985. She now coaches singers, actors, dancers, and performers from all around the world. She helps artists master their skills, materials, and mindset. Teresa has helped hundreds of artists develop their talents, follow their dreams, and successfully pursue their career goal. In 1999, Teresa got very sick. In less than a week, she went from being able to dance and hold her leg above her head, to not being able to sit up, roll over, or even feed herself. She was in and out of the hospital for 18 months before she was finally diagnosed with a chronic neuro-muscular disease called Myasthenia Gravis. Teresa has learned to take one day at a time and make the most out of every day. Today, Teresa is happy and healthy. Most people do not even know that she has Myasthenia Gravis. Teresa believes that everyone has a story. She hopes to inspire others by sharing hers. Teresa has published eight books and has a podcast called "Overcoming Obstacles Through Positive Thinking." She has even been featured in in several documentaries. In 2018, Teresa helped to create non-profit called the Performers With Purpose Foundation. She directs performances year-round to help raise money for important community causes. Teresa’s favorite project is the PWP annual “Sub for Santa” project. Each year, the Performers With Purpose Foundation provides gifts, toys, and clothing to underprivileged children during the holiday season. After years of being a single, working mom living with a chronic illness, Teresa understands how difficult the holiday season can be for struggling families. Being able to “adopt” families that need help brings Teresa an immense amount of joy! Teresa’s most important accomplishment is being a Mom and a "Grammy." Teresa raised her own three children to become happy, healthy, and successful adults. Her oldest daughter owns a Performing Arts School in Denver and has two adorable little boys. Her son is in the United States Air Force and has two darling little boys and a beautiful baby girl. Teresa’s youngest daughter, Amber Mackenzie, is a professional actor, singer, dancer and screenwriter. Teresa currently works as Amber’s Performance Coach and Booking Manager. Teresa uses her experiences as a mother, "Grammy," teacher, patient, coach, and entrepreneur to help inspire, guide, challenge, motivate, support, and encourage others toward success. Ways to connect with Teresa**:** Teresa's website:  www.spotlightperformers.com Performers With Purpose Foundation website: www.performerswithpurposefoundation.com. Teresa’s podcast,, can be found on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, You Tube, or your favorite streaming platform. https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLAIx8SkZwXXPdNOkzPNHJZFwYne7yo3oG\&si=d1yL7Sp4FNRLXdmS Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/teresa.hillputnam?mibextid=wwXIfr\&mibextid=wwXIfr Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/teresahillputnam?igsh=eTJwazg1enRkb3N2\&utm_source=qr LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/teresa-hill-putnam-4bb92941?utm_source=share\&utm_campaign=share_via\&utm_content=profile\&utm_medium=ios_app About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:17 Well, hello, once again, everyone, wherever you happen to be in the world, I appreciate you being here. You are listening to or watching or both. Unstoppable mindset. Our guest today, Teresa Hill Putnam, used to own a pretty good size performing arts school, but today she's a performing arts coach, and she she does other things as well, and I'm going to let her tell you more about it, because it's no fun. If I give everything away, then what is there to talk about? So, Teresa, you like that? Huh? Yeah, great. So, Teresa, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Teresa Hill-Putnam  01:56 Well, thanks so much for having me. Well, why don't Michael Hingson  01:59 we start as I love to do all the time. Why don't you tell us, kind of about the early Teresa growing up and all that? Teresa Hill-Putnam  02:07 Well, I started dancing when I was about two and a half, three years old, and grew up as a dancer. And I was actually very, very shy as a child, and that's why my parents put me into dance classes, I would hide behind my mom, and so put me into the performing arts, and that helped me gain some confidence, and I was a good student. And just love the performing arts. I started my first business teaching the neighborhood students when I was 14, and all of my cousins and and stuff so much enjoyed that, and that grew into, you know, my next love, which is owning a studio, which I for 35 years in Colorado. Michael Hingson  02:57 Now, what did your mom do? Dude? Was she a dancer? Did she do any of that? Teresa Hill-Putnam  03:02 My mom, yeah. My mom grew up dancing. She wasn't really a dancer. She was a dance student growing up, my mom is an artist. My dad is a drummer. And, you know, I kind of just grew up in the in the arts world. And, you know, loved it from before I could even remember. Michael Hingson  03:25 So, so your dad is a drummer. Yeah, he plays professionally. Teresa Hill-Putnam  03:30 He did up until covid, and then things kind of shut everything down, and he hasn't really picked it back up since then. Michael Hingson  03:37 Unfortunately, that's too bad we always need talent in the world, I know right, of course. Now, being a fan of old westerns like Gunsmoke, when you say he's a drummer, I'd say, what kind of whiskey did he sell? But that's a different story. Yeah, a little bit different. Yeah. Couldn't resist though, that's that's cool. Well, so you, you come by, although you were shy, you come by performing pretty honestly from parents who both did and do it or did it correct. So where did you? Where did you grow up in Denver, or where, Teresa Hill-Putnam  04:14 you know, I was kind of all over. My dad got transferred a lot. So I spent some time in Kansas. I spent some time in Oklahoma, Utah, even a little bit of time in Hawaii and Colorado, just kind of all over. Most of my time, I guess, was spent at the University of Utah with the training with the School of Ballet West there. Michael Hingson  04:36 So what, what work did your dad do when you were growing up that transferred you around, or Teresa Hill-Putnam  04:40 the mom he was with the American stores company, Skaggs, drugs, gags, alphabeta, Michael Hingson  04:47 okay, so Teresa Hill-Putnam  04:48 they transferred him around a lot, so we went wherever dad needed to be, Michael Hingson  04:53 but they kept him, which meant he must be successful. He must have been successful. Teresa Hill-Putnam  04:58 Yeah, he was. He was really great at. It. Michael Hingson  05:00 That's pretty cool. So you went to the University of Utah, and what degree did you get? Teresa Hill-Putnam  05:06 Actually, I was in the dance department. Michael Hingson  05:10 That makes sense, of course. What a silly thing to ask. So you graduated. What did you do after you graduated. Teresa Hill-Putnam  05:21 Um, can just continued. I had my own school already. Michael Hingson  05:24 Had your own school already. So you started out while you were in college, right? Teresa Hill-Putnam  05:29 So you started out late high school, okay? Michael Hingson  05:33 So you had the you had the entrepreneurial spirit, right from the Teresa Hill-Putnam  05:37 outset, yes, sir. Michael Hingson  05:41 Well, that's pretty cool. Well, so you, you, you had that school for 35 years, and what made you decide not to do that anymore? Well, when Teresa Hill-Putnam  05:54 covid hit it, I have a disease called myasthenia gravis, and I've been on prednisone for 25 years, and so when covid hit, I'm very high risk, and so I had to get out of the classroom. Couldn't be around the kids very much because of the germs, not just covid, but the flu, and, yeah, strep and everything else. And so I decided to continue the virtual direction. And my daughter was doing the the in person, so I did all the online, and she did the in person. We did that for a little while. And then my youngest child, who was 17 at the time, needed to come to Los Angeles in order to pursue her career, which is film, television and music. And so I decided, you know, obviously a 17 year old is not coming to Los Angeles alone. So and I was teaching virtually anyway. So we put everything we owned in storage, sold the house, and moved to Los Angeles to follow a dream. Wow. Michael Hingson  07:02 And how's that going? It's going great. Teresa Hill-Putnam  07:05 That's cool. Yeah, we just got off of a six week music tour with her that we went on for the summer, and that was fun. And now we're back here, and she had a short film audition this morning. And you know, she just keeps, you know, between the the film, television and music, we're staying pretty Michael Hingson  07:25 busy all necessary things to have around in a good fun world, yes, by any standard. Well, so when did you discover you had Myasthenia grab us? Teresa Hill-Putnam  07:36 Well, in 1999 I started getting super sick. I went from being able to dance and, you know, hold my leg above my head and, you know, I had all the strength and and everything, and then within about a week, I couldn't even get out of bed. I just went downhill. So quickly I had no strength. Was struggling to breathe, was struggling to eat, swallow, I couldn't lift my arms or my legs, couldn't walk, couldn't sit up. And then they they did a lot of tests on me. Nothing was coming back positive. They couldn't figure out what was wrong with me. It took about 18 months to figure that out, and finally, 2001 they diagnosed me with myasthenia gravis. Michael Hingson  08:27 So, so what is that disease Exactly? I've heard of it, but I don't know a lot about most Teresa Hill-Putnam  08:31 people don't know what it is, actually, so I'm I'm surprised you've even heard of it. It's quite rare. It's an it's a neuromuscular disease. It's autoimmune. And basically, my brain is telling my body what to do, but my muscles don't always respond. It's a disconnect between the nerve and the muscle. So I take medicine called mestinon. I take it about every four hours, and what it does is it acts like a television antenna, and it connects my muscles to my nerves and makes my muscles work. Michael Hingson  09:05 It brings them back into line so they do what they're told, right? Teresa Hill-Putnam  09:09 Yeah, and without it, my muscles don't work. And with it, my muscles work. So it the drug itself was created as an antidote for nerve gas, interestingly, and it works great for myasthenia gravis, um, you know, I'm still on prednisone, which will that helps with the autoimmune part of it, but then the mestanon helps with the symptoms. It's, you know, there's no cure, there's just treatments. And luckily for me, you know, the treatments do work. I had my chest cut open in 2001 and had my thymus removed, which is a little tiny gland that's next to your heart. And so anyway, they took it out. It's supposed to be the size of a green pea, and they got mine out, and it was bigger than the doctor's. Hand, wow. And they took they sent it away to do testing. They thought for sure, it must be cancer, because it was so big. Well, it wasn't. It was healthy, luckily. But getting rid of the thymus, my body was attacking itself, and that helped a lot. But it, you know, like I said, there's no cure it. There's just treatments, and that was one of the treatments, and now I'm doing great. You know, I still have to take the medicine every day and whatnot, but most people don't even know that I'm that I have anything that I'm sick at all. Michael Hingson  10:33 Do you wake up during the night to take medicines? You said every four hours? Teresa Hill-Putnam  10:37 Yep, usually I do. And if I don't, I wake up real weak, and then it just it takes me about two hours to kind of get my body going again. Yeah. Michael Hingson  10:47 So is this a genetic disease? Teresa Hill-Putnam  10:50 You know, they say it's not. However, I have a cousin with Myasthenia. My mom has it, and so does my oldest daughter. And so even though they say it's not genetic, I don't know if they really know the genetic makeup of this. So, you know, yes, I say it is because, you know, obviously, in my family it is, but, you know, I don't know, Michael Hingson  11:14 yeah, well, it's kind of one of those things that, over time, people will learn more about it. I mean, it's like, like autism. I've talked to a number of people on this podcast who felt when they were growing up that they were different or or something wasn't right, and when they were adults, they were diagnosed as being on the spectrum. And I subscribe to the to the theory that one of the biggest increases in autism has come about because we're learning more about it and we measure it more Absolutely, measure it more accurately, right? Teresa Hill-Putnam  11:52 So, and I think that myasthenia gravis has become a lot more well known, and it's becoming a little bit easier to be diagnosed. I mean, like I said, it took them 18 months to diagnose me, but that was back in 1999 and I'm hearing, you know, I'm on a lot of different platforms with other patients with myasthenia gravis. And you know, some it takes them a long time to get diagnosed, but oftentimes the doctors are more familiar with it now, and people are getting diagnosed a little bit quicker. Thank goodness. Yeah, well, I was in respiratory failure before they figured out what was wrong with me Michael Hingson  12:29 and those but those are the kinds of things that will come along and hopefully help people be more accurate in diagnosis in the future, as well as playing out, not figuring out what it is. And people, hopefully, over time, will spend more of their efforts learning how to actually cure it. But that's, of course, another story. Teresa Hill-Putnam  12:47 Yeah, well, and there are a lot of new treatments available. I haven't tried anything else, only because what I've got is working. So why mess with it? Right? But I was in a documentary. Actually, we filmed during covid For this documentary. It's called a mystery to me, and it's all about myasthenia gravis. And, you know, it was a company that that that did the documentary, is a company that it now has other treatments available, which is fantastic. Michael Hingson  13:25 So yeah, and once people start paying attention to these kinds of things, those are the the very concepts that help more and more people truly understand it, which is great, absolutely. Yeah, so since you became ill with this, what have you learned? Teresa Hill-Putnam  13:44 Oh, I have learned so much. It's amazing. You know, I wouldn't wish illness on anybody, sure, however, because I got sick, I have learned to take one day at a time. I've learned to appreciate things a lot more than I ever used to. When I got sick, I was working, you know, like, 60 hours a week, you know, so stressed about, you know, being the best at everything and and doing doing everything. I was definitely a workaholic. And one thing that I've, what you know, learned over the years, especially after I got sick, was to just take one day at a time, do the best I can do every single day, and try to make the most of every day that I have. You know, you never know when life is going to Michael Hingson  14:38 change, right? And you don't know how it's going to change Absolutely. Teresa Hill-Putnam  14:44 And I've also learned to flip the script a lot. You know, if something is negative, I try to flip it and turn it into a positive, and try to learn from every setback. And, you know, look at it differently, like instead of, you know, oh, this is off. All this. You know, this is happening to me. This is terrible. I try to flip it and say, Why is this happening to me? What am I supposed to learn from this and becoming more positive and more mindful? Michael Hingson  15:13 So what kind of answers have you gotten turning myasthenia gravis into a positive Teresa Hill-Putnam  15:21 Well, I mean, just learning to take every day at a time. Yeah, you know, one day at a time. I mean, some days I wake up and I feel fantastic, and I can do everything that's on my to do list for the day. And other days I, you know, wake up and I don't feel so great, and so I just kind of have to do what is necessary and prioritize a little bit more. So yeah, I have a running to do list all the time. It's on my phone. And you know, some things get checked off and some things don't. And you know, what doesn't happen today will happen tomorrow or next week, or whenever it gets done. Michael Hingson  15:57 It does help you put a lot of things in perspective, doesn't it? It sure does. And there's a lot of value in that. And you know, some of these things you just didn't have any control over happening, but you certainly do have control over how you decide to deal with it, absolutely. So that's that kind of makes a lot of sense well. So you own this performing arts studio for 35 years. Tell me more about that. What does that entail? What what did you learn from doing that? It must have been obviously a school that that grew, and you had to learn a lot to go along with it. But tell me about all that. Teresa Hill-Putnam  16:38 Well, I started out with just myself teaching, and then it grew and grew and grew, and at one point I had nine full time teachers and 700 students, and decided that that was more than I liked. I didn't enjoy that so much because that put me out of the classroom and more in an administrative role, and I really missed teaching. So we slowly, kind of actually downsized the school rather, you know, you always hear about businesses trying to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Well, we got too big too fast. And so over time, we downsize the school a bit. And I got back into the classroom, which is where I so much, you know, much appreciated being in the classroom. I love teaching. And I just felt like when I was in the office all the time, I wasn't making a big enough difference in the lives of the people that I was working with. And that's, I mean, my purpose is in life is to make the world a better place. And I felt like I was just, you know, maneuvering people where they needed to be, but I wasn't actually, you know, making that big of a difference when I had such a big school. So anyway, we taught ballet, jazz, tap, lyrical, musical theater, voice lessons. You know, everything was within our school, and I decided about 250 300 students was about where I really that that was the right number for us. So it worked out great. Michael Hingson  18:23 Well, that's how many people did you have in a class, typically at a Teresa Hill-Putnam  18:26 time, usually, well, it depends on the class. I guess that's true. You know, if it was a musical theater class, it might be 25 kids. If it was a ballet class with three and four year olds, it might be eight kids, so it just kind of all depends. We also offered private lessons, and you know, it, it just all depended upon the age group and the type of class being taught. Michael Hingson  18:54 Yeah, that makes sense, but I hear exactly what you're saying. I really love to teach. And when I was in college at UC Irvine, My desire was to graduate, get advanced degrees and then go into teaching. Well, that that changed, and I didn't get to do that directly, but over time for me, I ended up getting back into teaching, in a sense, because after September 11, now I do a lot of teaching about not only disabilities, but about leadership and trust, and I realize that, in fact, we're all teachers, and we all can can take advantage of being able to be teachers to help other people. One of the things that I always told every sales person that I ever hired was be a student for a year, ask questions. You'll learn a lot more that way, and your customers want you to succeed. Your customers are generally not jerks, and they want you to succeed. So give them the opportunity. Teresa Hill-Putnam  19:58 Well, and everybody has a story. Yeah, and it's important that we all share our story. You never know. You know your story might be somebody else's, you know, safety net, you you might help them figure out their solution to their own life just by sharing your story. So I think it's very important that we, you know, get back to the basics and start, you know, talking to people and sharing our stories and helping each other out. Well. Michael Hingson  20:27 And I believe, well, I believe absolutely that's what the whole purpose of unstoppable mindset is all about. This podcast is all about giving people the opportunity to tell their stories. Because, in fact, I think everyone has a story or stories to tell, and some of those stories are going to be about challenges they faced, and maybe nobody else has faced them, but they did, and so it's important to tell those stories to help them, but also because we're showing anyone who is involved in observing this podcast that they're more unstoppable than they think they are, and I think we really way too much undersell what we can do and what we should be doing. So I'm really glad to have that possibility and opportunity here Teresa Hill-Putnam  21:16 well, and I don't know how many times my doctors told me over the years to quit my job and go on disability because it was just too much and I wasn't physically going to be able to do it. And, you know, I didn't do that, and I'm so glad I didn't do that. You know, I just kept going and and hopefully that experience taught my my own children, for one, but also my students and their families, hopefully it taught them, you know, endurance, yeah, and the importance of, you know, the show must go on, you just keep going. Michael Hingson  21:50 So when you when you had the studio and so on, people were aware that you had Teresa Hill-Putnam  21:58 myasthenia gravis. Yes, there were several years that I was very sick, I would come in when I was well, and otherwise I would have to, you know, when I was well enough. Otherwise I would have to rely on my employees, Michael Hingson  22:10 yeah, so they were run, Oh, Teresa Hill-Putnam  22:12 yeah. Everybody was very aware of it. Michael Hingson  22:15 And and the point is, though, that that is why, by any definition, you were able to teach them about endurance and and resilience. Teresa Hill-Putnam  22:24 Yes, you know, there, there were several years there that, you know, I didn't know if I was going to make it. Yeah, so, you know, but I, but we kept, we kept on going. I didn't close the doors. So you, you made the choice. Yes, well, and over the 35 years, we had a we had a fire in the building, which wiped us out. We had to go to a temporary facility while they fixed the fire. And then we also a dam broke above where the studio was, and it completely flooded the whole shopping center where the studio was, and we had like, six inches of mud throughout the entire studio. So we had to go to a temporary facility for that. And then, of course, you know, well, well, we got, actually, we got robbed. At one point, they broke in and broke all the windows and, like, ransacked the office and stuff. Luckily, we didn't lose a whole lot there, other than the windows and, you know, sense of security, yeah. But nobody was hurt, so that that was good. It happened in the middle of the night. And then, of course, covid, you know, which shut us all down for a while, and we had to go. We shut down on a Friday and Monday morning, we opened virtual. And I didn't even know that that was a thing at the time. To be honest with you, I had never done anything virtually. And look at me now. I mean, that's pretty much all I do is virtual teaching, which, you know, everything happens for a reason. And you know, I I'm not thrilled that covid happened. However, it didn't teach me a lot about what is possible. Michael Hingson  24:09 When did you actually close the the the studio? Um, or when did you switch ownership? Teresa Hill-Putnam  24:15 I we switched in July of 2021 Oh, okay, when my daughter took over and and turned it into her own school. Her school is called amplified arts. Our school together was spotlight Performing Arts Center, and then she bought the school. It's all hers and it hers is now amplified arts. And then I run my company, which is now called Spotlight performers. Which, like I said, I do, I do coaching for children, you know, in the performing arts, vocal acting and dance, and then I work as a performance and empowerment coach for professional entertainers, any Michael Hingson  24:58 professional entertainers. Trainers we would would have heard of. Teresa Hill-Putnam  25:02 You know, I can't really tell that information because of confidentiality. Yeah, I got it, but I do work with my own daughter. I can tell you that her name is Anthony Mackenzie, and she's pretty amazing. Michael Hingson  25:16 Let me rephrase the question, just for fun, any any performers that we would have heard of, not mentioning names. But have you worked with them other besides you famous people? Teresa Hill-Putnam  25:28 Yes, okay, yeah, I'm very confidential with my students only you know they're in the public eye. So yeah. Michael Hingson  25:42 Well, no, that's fine, but it's neat that you're well recognized, and you you get to continue to to do that sort of thing, which is really pretty cool. Tell me more about how you do this virtually, because I I took dance when I was growing up, although I've forgotten a lot of of the steps and so on and but I remember, you know, some of what I did, but still, I appreciate the whole concept of virtual but how do you do that? Teresa Hill-Putnam  26:13 Well, we have a little area set up in our home that, you know, that I teach. But when during covid, we actually turned the entire master bedroom of my house into a dance studio, and had, you know, we moved the bars, and we moved, you know, everything. We ripped out the carpet and put in the dance floors and did all of that, and just teach like a normal class, yeah, yeah. And we now for dance, I just do private lessons at this point. So, you know, it's a lot easier, you know, space wise, to only do one on one, but it worked out during covid as well. Michael Hingson  26:53 So, so when you're when you're teaching dance, how many cameras do you have that you you have running in the virtual environment like that, usually just the one, really, and it can, and it can show everything from footwork to whatever else you need. Teresa Hill-Putnam  27:08 Yep, cool. Well, and we adjust the distance from the camera based on what it is that that needs to be observed, right? Well, so, yeah, Michael Hingson  27:20 I have done some speaking virtually. I can do it. I don't like virtual for me, as well as performing live, Teresa Hill-Putnam  27:30 no And mainly, well for Michael Hingson  27:33 me, especially, I don't get any feedback from the audience. So when I'm speaking and I'm in front of an audience there, when I'm when I'm speaking, I know what to expect, or I know what kind of reactions, having done this for 23 and a half years, I know what kind of reactions I should be getting based on whatever I'm saying, but I don't get that same information in a virtual environment. So it's a little bit more of a challenge, but I've done it long enough that I know I can. Can do it virtually if I need to, Teresa Hill-Putnam  28:07 well, and it's kind of hard to read the room when you're in a virtual setting, you can't hear them, you can't, you know, I can't see them, you know, as much. So it's kind of hard to read the room as well. You don't get the the feedback from the audience as much in a virtual setting, but I do also motivational speaking events, and I do love having an audience. Michael Hingson  28:30 Yeah, one of the things that fascinated me during covid was how different groups put on virtual concerts, and they were able to to figure out how to time it so that it sounded just as natural as if they were all there together. That that's gotta be a challenge. Teresa Hill-Putnam  28:51 Well, it is a challenge. You know, I do a lot of Voice Lessons like, you know, singing lessons with my students on on Zoom, and there's a setting on zoom that you have to switch to be original sound for musicians. If you don't switch that, then the sound is kind of funny, and there is a little bit of a time delay, so it's, you know, it is harder to do things as a group, you know, and for, like, music, concerts and stuff like that, because there is a time delay, and everybody's Internet is a little bit different with speed. And so, yeah, it is a challenge. Luckily, most of what I do with the the music is one on one, and so it makes it much easier. They play their music from their home, or, you know, their office, or wherever they are. So you know, there's no time delay with the music and their voice. It's the same. But when I'm playing the piano and they're singing to the piano, I just have to go slower, because then I realize that there is a little bit of a time delay. Or. Michael Hingson  30:00 Once, once they start singing, you can then customize your playing to that. It is a lot easier with one i It seems to me that I recall news broadcast during covid Where whole Philharmonic orchestras figured out ways to perform virtual school. Teresa Hill-Putnam  30:20 Yeah, you have to figure it all out when we when we were doing virtual learning, and we were doing classes, we were doing entire musicals virtually, and we performed several musicals with our classes completely virtual, and it was definitely different, yeah, but we made it work. The show must go on. We made it work. Michael Hingson  30:44 What did you learn from that, Teresa Hill-Putnam  30:47 that we can do it? There you go. So cool to learn that we could do anything we were scheduled, or I was scheduled to record this documentary, a mystery to me, and that was, you know, before covid hit, they were supposed to start filming in April, but we had been working on it for months and months and months prior to that. And then everything got shut down. And so they, the production company, sent out all of the cameras and the sound equipment and the lighting and everything to us and computers and everything, they send it all out to us. And my daughters helped the production company. We got everything set up in our home, and then somehow the production company was able to take over the computers and run everything virtually. It was the first time it ever happened, and because of it, they won lots of awards for this documentary, because we still filmed it. It that we still did it, and it was really super fun and educational for all of us. That's when my daughter really decided she had to come to LA that was it. She just, she really had the bug, then she really wanted to come to LA when she was seven. And I told her, you know, I'm a single mom, I've got a chronic illness. I'm running a business. I can't take you to LA when you're seven. If you still want to do it when you graduate from high school, then I'll take you to LA at that point. So she worked her tail off and graduated when she was 16 so that we could go to LA but it was filming that documentary that she was determined that was the end of it. She knew that was where she was going. Michael Hingson  32:32 And I understand conceptually, and probably even a little bit more technically, how the documentary company was able to take control over the computers and so on. But the neat thing about that, from their standpoint, is, because they were able to control the computers, they were also able to help deal with the timing for what you were doing as well, which is pretty cool. Teresa Hill-Putnam  32:56 It was amazing that it happened. Yeah, you know, I was just so, so pleased with how it all was put together. They did a great job, and it turned into a very nice piece. Michael Hingson  33:08 So that's great. That is, that is really exciting. Well, so you, you eventually left the performing arts school. But why did you decide to become a performance and empowerment coach? Teresa Hill-Putnam  33:27 Well, I started writing books in in 2010 and my goal was to always become a motivational speaker and to share my story and to empower people. But I had, you know, a little kid I at the time, my youngest was six. My two older kids were older. They're 10 and 14 years older than my my youngest, and because I got sick between my second and my third child, and couldn't have kids for a while because I was so sick. But anyway, I decided that in 2010 I really wanted to share my story and become a motivational speaker, and that kind of empowered me to become more of an empowerment coach. I mean, that was kind of what I wanted to do all along. And when I came to LA I didn't want to run a big school anymore. It was time for me to retire from that and, you know, teach virtually, one on one, students or clients. But I also wanted to help entertainers. I wanted to work with. There's a lot of entertainers that they get really frustrated with themself, or they get really down on themselves. You know, you hear about kids that you know were child actors, and then they got into drugs, or they got into, you know, a different direction, where it wasn't healthy. And so I really wanted to use, you know, my experience of working with kids over the. Years. I mean, I've worked with 1000s of kids over the years, and they've all had their own set of of problems and and abilities, I should say, not, certainly not all problems, but we've, we've overcome a lot, and I wanted to be able to share that, and be able to share that knowledge with the people that really needed it the most, and so, yeah, that's why I became a performance coach and an empowerment coach. I not only work with performers, but I also work with patients different types of chronic illnesses. One of my keynotes is the show must go on, and it's patient empowerment. And that would be the empowerment coaching, the step into your spotlight keynote that I do. It's the kind of it's called, create the life you want to live that's more for performance, you know, coaching that's more for singers, dancers, actors, performers, so that they can follow their dreams. But you know, then I also do, for just everybody, flip the script, which, again, we talked about how overcoming obstacles, just figuring out how to turn the negative to the positive, you know. So that's another one of the speeches that I give. And also, we live in a kind of a crazy world right now, right? Yeah. And I think it's really important that we all work to, you know, be the change that needs to happen in the world. So that's something that I also talk to, you know, different groups about, not only groups of like women's conferences and stuff, but also children, you know, teaching kids Dare to be different. You know, they don't have to follow the crowd, and adults don't have to follow the crowd. We can be the change. So, you know, empowerment coaching is goes hand in hand with performance coaching. When I'm working with entertainers, I have to empower them a lot to overcome the obstacles that they have. Might be imposter syndrome. It might be anxiety or, you know, believe it or not, even superstars have performance anxiety, or they get chased, right? So there's a lot of empowerment coaching that goes along with the performance coaching. Michael Hingson  37:24 And it's it's so unfortunate that in our world, we don't really see enough where children are taught to have the confidence that they should have or that they can have. We, we don't really as much as we should encourage people to think about the impossible and how to make it possible, or, as I like to say it, what's wrong with saying, why not? You know, and then in going from there, we just don't teach that. We don't teach curiosity nearly as much as we should. Teresa Hill-Putnam  38:04 That is true, and we got to remember that the kids are, you know, these little kids that are growing up now are our future leaders of tomorrow. You know, it's very important that we teach them how to handle these things. Michael Hingson  38:16 Yeah, and we should be teaching people to be more curious. I keep hearing all the time about helicopter parents and so on, and they just really smother their kids so much, and the kids never get a chance to really explore, which is unfortunate, because that's the time to really explore, is when you're a kid. This is true. I do appreciate that there are a lot of other scary things that go on in the world, but you can still allow your child to be curious and explore without stifling all that creativity and saying, Well, you can't go outside because somebody might shoot you or something like that, right? Teresa Hill-Putnam  38:57 Well, and you can keep your children safe, but also keep them involved, you know, you just have to be very aware of what your children are doing and you know, and and put them in activities that they're going to gain the confidence that they need and the skills that they need to be successful. Michael Hingson  39:15 So I remember when I was growing up and the doctors, when it was discovered I was blind, told my parents to send me off to a home, because no blind child could ever grow up to do anything. And my parents said, You guys are wrong. Of course he can. And my father at the time, yeah, scary. I'm still trying to figure out what to do, aren't we, all right, yeah, well, there is that we grow up? Yeah, yeah, I'll never grow up, as Mary Martin said in Peter Pan, true, but, but my father owned in Chicago a television repair shop. Of course, you don't have those sorts of things anymore for TV to hide. You just go get a new one. But back then you replace to. You replaced resistors and capacitors and so on. And occasionally he took me on calls with him, and he said, Now, don't put your hand inside the TV, because it's plugged in, right? And you get shocked. I don't remember the circumstances. I don't know that I deliberately stuck my hand in the TV to see what would happen. But I did touch a TV in the wrong spot, and I did get a shock, and my dad saw it, and he said, see what happens. But as I recall, I wasn't trying to stick my hand in the TV, I was just trying to put my hand somewhere. Just ended up in the TV. But I did learn what electricity felt like which was a cool thing. Quite a shock. Yeah, quite a shock. I can't say whether that really led me to decide that I wanted to get a master's degree in physics, but still a lot of fun Teresa Hill-Putnam  40:55 that we teach kids. You know that when they make a mistake, that they learn from it and they move on, and that mistakes are part of learning. Michael Hingson  41:03 Yeah, and there's nothing wrong with that. Well. And I always tell my vocal Teresa Hill-Putnam  41:06 students, for example, if you don't squeak, you're not working hard enough. Yeah, you got to get to a point where you squeak sometimes, or that you hit a wrong note, or, you know, whatever, if you always stay in a safety zone, you're not going to learn from it. So stretch and grow well, and there's certain safe places to stretch and grow. Yeah. Michael Hingson  41:26 Mm, hmm, absolutely, which made perfect sense, yeah. Well, so as what's the difference between a performance coach and an empowerment coach? Well, a Teresa Hill-Putnam  41:38 performance coach is a skills coach, so I teach kids to or clients, not just kids, adults as well, to sing, to dance, to act, to perform. Okay, we do? We work on the skills also we work on their career. So there's, you know, resume writing, there's headshot development, there's different profiles that you have to have. There's a lot with it. Career wise, that's not just skills, but in order to be an entertainer, there's certain things that you have to have, career wise, and then the last part of it is empowerment coaching. So Performance Coaching is a combination of all three. Empowerment coaching, on the other hand, is kind of something within itself. It's the motivational speaking. It's empowering people to, you know, overcome obstacles, to set goals, to to, like, create the lives that they want to live, to to dream. Yeah, yeah, okay. Michael Hingson  42:43 And that makes sense, because that's what really empowerment is all about. And I think all too many of us could use a lot more empowerment coaching, because we underrate ourselves, which is, of course, what I said earlier, talking about unstoppable mindset. We, we underrate ourselves. We, we don't think we're nearly as unstoppable as we really are, because we sell ourselves short, right? Teresa Hill-Putnam  43:06 Well, and people think that to be positive, to be a positive person, that you have to be positive all the time. But even positive people are not positive all the time. They have bad days they you know, they have days where they have a lot of anxiety, they have, they may have days where they really start to doubt themselves. It doesn't mean that you know you're not a positive person if you doubt yourself. It just means that you know being positive or being healthy is is a journey. It's, you know, it's not a destination. Life is a journey. And you know, there's highs and lows of every everyday life for everybody. Michael Hingson  43:47 The idea, though, is that if you're a positive person, you are able to get to the point when you're not feeling positive. You recognize that, and you work to overcome that. Which is, yes, which is what a lot of people have to learn to do, which they haven't learned to do, but it would make sense if more people would focus on, alright, this happened. Why did it happen? What can I do about it? How do I learn from it? And that's the thing we don't teach ourselves nearly as much as we should about introspection and self analysis. Teresa Hill-Putnam  44:22 Absolutely well, and I call it flip the script, because you know things are going to happen. You know life, life happens, and it's just a matter of how you deal with it. For example, the other night, I was picking my daughter up from work, and we noticed that we had a nail in our tire, and we were on our way home, and we noticed it was like 637 o'clock at night, and we had a nail in the tire, and there was no way we were going to get home without having a flat tire. So I turned around, and we went over to Costco, and we got the tire fixed. And rather than being all frustrated about it, we just went in. They said that they'd fix the tire, and we went to the the snack bar and Michael Hingson  45:05 got some snack bar ice Teresa Hill-Putnam  45:08 cream fixes everything, right? You know, when all else fails, eat chocolate, that's right, or chocolate ice cream, that's even better. Michael Hingson  45:16 Sure, then you have a double whammy that fixes everything. Teresa Hill-Putnam  45:19 Oh, I know, right? So, you know, it's just a matter of life happens, and not everything in life, even for positive people, is going to be positive. So you just have to figure out how to make things be the best. You know, I, I always say, you have to find the joy. You know, we go for walks every day, and I try to find smiley faces wherever I can, like with rocks and sticks. You know, they're smiley faces. Sometimes you'll find them on the sidewalk or whatever. And if we can't find them, we make them, you know, I find leaks and sticks, and we make smiley faces for other people to find. And you know, you just have to make your own fun and make your own happiness Michael Hingson  46:03 for it, and things come up, as you said, and the fact of the matter is that you can decide how to deal with it. You didn't, apparently, have any control over that nail getting into that tire, but you had absolute control over how you decided to deal with it. Right? Happens all the time, and and we do have control over how we decide to deal with whatever comes along in life, but I agree, chocolate ice cream is the number one fix, right? Teresa Hill-Putnam  46:30 Well, everything happens for a reason. Maybe we just need a chocolate ice cream that night, right? But you never know Michael Hingson  46:36 what else might happen. You know. You never know who you might meet or what else might happen. So it's life is an adventure, and if we don't treat it as an adventure, Teresa Hill-Putnam  46:45 what good are we? Absolutely, I agree. Michael Hingson  46:50 So as a motivational speaker, who is your audience? Teresa Hill-Putnam  46:53 Well, I work with a lot of women's groups, a lot of retirement communities will bring me in to to empower their residents, Girl Scout troops, schools, universities. You know, it just kind of depends on which, you know, which message that I'm I'm giving at the time. I also work with businesses and at different conventions and luncheons, Michael Hingson  47:27 just kind of depends. And do you charge for speaking? Teresa Hill-Putnam  47:32 Usually, yes, yeah, yes. Michael Hingson  47:35 Girl Scout troops probably don't have nearly as much to pay, but that's okay Teresa Hill-Putnam  47:40 well, and it just kind of depends on the organization that I'm working with. And, yeah, I'm involved in the distance, and there's a lot of factors in it. Michael Hingson  47:48 I agree, and that's what I find as well. You know, there are some places that don't pay Rotary Clubs, typically don't pay for speakers, but you never know what else you might get out of it. So that's okay, absolutely. Teresa Hill-Putnam  48:02 And you know what you get out of every every job that I ever do, every event, I always learn as much as I give, yeah, or I meet somebody amazing Michael Hingson  48:16 well, and my and my belief actually goes a little bit further if I don't learn at least as much as anyone else. I'm not doing my job right? Absolutely, I think that is so true. So what? What made you decide to start public speaking? Teresa Hill-Putnam  48:30 Um, like I said, in in 2010 I wrote my first book because I wanted to share my story. Okay? I started public speaking way back then, wow. Michael Hingson  48:42 And I love to teach. So go they go together, don't they go together? Yeah. Well, tell us about the books that you've published. You've done, what? Eight books now, Teresa Hill-Putnam  48:52 I've done eight books. I have, I actually have three of them right here. Unfortunately, I'm out of stock of the last one, but here's one. This is my they're all my story. This one is called The show must go on, and that was the first one that I that I published, and that one really is more my myasthenia gravis story. And then the second one is called from one stage to the next, and that one is just kind of a continuation of that, of my myasthenia gravis story, and kind of what, what the next step was, the script of life here. There's kind of a glare, sorry about that. The script of life is what I've learned, you know, over the years, behind the scenes. It's it says here, director's notes, descriptive life, things I have learned behind the scenes, but it's all part of the overcoming obstacles through positive thinking. And then the last one that I did, it's called Life is not a dress rehearsal. Yeah. And which is, again, just the things that I have learned. They're part of some of the the lessons that I've learned, which is all kind of part of my podcast as well. Michael Hingson  50:11 Now, do you self publish, or do you have a publisher? Teresa Hill-Putnam  50:15 Right now, I'm self publishing, but I'm actually looking for a literary agent so that we can go in the in a different direction. Michael Hingson  50:24 I asked because you said you were out of some of your books. So I was just Teresa Hill-Putnam  50:27 kind of actually out of the new one. The life is life is not a dress rehearsal book. I'm out of that one right now. Then I also have two goal setting workbooks, one for adults and one for children. And then I have one book that it's called my daily pep talk, which is just a bunch of positive sayings and quotes. So whenever I'm having a bad day, I actually use mine. I just open it to a page, and that's my positive thought for the day. And then, using my performing arts background, I wrote a handbook for dancers and dance teachers and and that one is actually going worldwide. Studios are buying that one to use it for teaching. And it's my my curriculum. Michael Hingson  51:17 Well, if you can't practice what you what you preach. What good are you? Right? Yeah, I mean, it's Talk is cheap, but it's it's a lot harder to talk and then actually follow through and support what you teach. But that's what really people look for. And I'm of the opinion that, in reality, people know when you're blowing smoke and when you're really serious and when you're serious, you do put serious, you do practice what you preach, and that's the way it ought to be. That is right. I agree. Yeah. So tell me about your podcast. It's called overcoming obstacles through positive thinking, which is what you also mentioned about one of your books. But tell me about the podcast a little bit well, Teresa Hill-Putnam  51:59 it's on Spotify Apple podcasts. It's on YouTube, and we'll put a link to the YouTube podcast as well. Basically, I just take a topic and then I just talk about it, and they're very short. I did that on purpose so that people can listen, you know, on their way to work. You know, they're like, five to 10 minutes long each, so that they can quickly listen and hopefully be empowered through the day by listening to the different topics. Yeah, I've got 50 episodes I guess, right now on the podcast, you know, and hopefully I can inspire somebody through that. Michael Hingson  52:45 We've done unstoppable mindset, typically for an hour. But of course, it is a conversation which is, which is a little bit different than what you do, right? But it seems to be going pretty well. People like it. We are. We're continuing to publish it, and no one is has come and said, don't do it anymore. So we're having a lot of fun, Teresa Hill-Putnam  53:05 quite a few of yours, and you do a great job. You do it, yeah, it's fun, and it's it's very positive. Michael Hingson  53:12 It all started out doing radio at kuci, at UC Irvine, when I played old radio shows for almost seven years. I love, I collect old shows, and so we would play them and talk between them and so on. So I learned a lot about radio doing that, and so that helped in getting the podcast started as well. When, when I was asked to do one, it just seemed like the right thing to do. Teresa Hill-Putnam  53:38 You know, I think it's a really good way to educate the public. I have another podcast that I do with the performers with purpose Foundation, which is my nonprofit that we started back in 2018 and with that one, we do more interviews like this, so you know, and it's to bring education to people that want to go into the entertainment industry. You know, we have different artists on people that have been in Broadway shows, people who are music artists, you know, actors, singers, dancers, performers, agents, managers, that kind of thing, and then we do like, a conversation, like, what you're doing here, which is fun. Michael Hingson  54:27 I am of the opinion there is nothing in the world like doing seeing a live show. Of course, I've had the opportunity to see several on Broadway, but also elsewhere, and there's just nothing like doing that. It's so powerful. Teresa Hill-Putnam  54:43 It is very powerful. Michael Hingson  54:45 My my favorite one, still, from a powerful standpoint, is, I'm trying to remember exactly when it was. It had to be in 1979 I think, no, it was early. Other than that, it was 1977 I think, or early 78 anyway, I was invited to go with a friend to a Broadway show. It was a Shakespeare play, Othello and the two stars. I cannot remember who played Desdemona, but James Earl Jones played Othello and Christopher Plummer played Ergo. What a show. Oh, that's fabulous. What a show. It was. As powerful as I have ever seen. It was amazing, you know, and you know what's going to happen at the end. But even so, when people are falling on their swords, the whole audience would go, I mean, it was like they didn't even see it coming. Well, of course they knew. I mean, it's not like Othello was brand new, but that's how powerful it was. It was great. I love that's awesome. I love live theater. Never have Teresa Hill-Putnam  55:50 had it's cool that live shows can really do that to you. Yeah, right. Bring so much emotion, Michael Hingson  55:59 and that's part of what you teach Teresa Hill-Putnam  56:01 absolutely if you, if you can make them laugh or you can make them cry, you've done your job, yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  56:10 And, and then they can go out, and if they remember it so much the better. Teresa Hill-Putnam  56:15 Well, they'll remember it more if you make them laugh or make them cry, right, right, absolutely, right. Michael Hingson  56:20 So you have three children and five grandchildren. That's a growing so, Teresa Hill-Putnam  56:25 so blessed with that. Yeah, my oldest just turned 35 a few days ago. And then I have a son who's 31 and I have a daughter who's 21 and then I have four grandsons and one little grand baby girl. Wow. Michael Hingson  56:42 Well, you have more males overall, well, except you got two daughters and one son, but still more males than mcfeemes. Well, that's, that's, Teresa Hill-Putnam  56:49 yeah, more male grand babies. Michael Hingson  56:52 Yeah, and more coming. Teresa Hill-Putnam  56:56 Well, not from my two oldest, I think they're both done, but my little, my, my little, my young little girl. She's not little anymore. She's 21 my youngest will eventually have children. And, and then I get to enjoy it all over again. Michael Hingson  57:09 There you go. Yeah, it's part of what makes it fun. And, and, and grandmama will get them all into performing arts. Teresa Hill-Putnam  57:19 Well, you know, I'm called Grammy, because it's kind of like the music award, Speaker 1  57:23 only they are, yeah, Teresa Hill-Putnam  57:26 yeah, that'll be fun. And, you know, I don't know if they will all be actors, singers, dancers, performers, or just whatever wonderful thing they come up with. I think my oldest grandson's probably going to be a scientist, and I think I'm not really sure about the others, maybe comedians. They're all pretty funny, so we'll Michael Hingson  57:51 see nothing like having a lot of laughter around. Teresa Hill-Putnam  57:54 Is there? You know, they bring so much joy? Yeah, yeah. Well, tell us Michael Hingson  57:58 about your your nonprofit, your foundation. Teresa Hill-Putnam  58:01 It's called the performers with purpose Foundation, and we started it well, 34 years ago, I guess. Okay, well, 35 years ago, I had my daughter, and then shortly after she was born, when she was 10 days old, I left my abusive husband and and we ended up getting a divorce, and that first Christmas was really, really, really hard for me, because I was a single mom, didn't have any money. I had, you know, a brand new baby that was couple months old, and it just broke my heart, because I did. I wanted to give her the world, but I couldn't give her the world because I was a single, broke mom, and decided at that point that I was never going to be in that position again. And started doing a program called sub for Santa the following year. So when she was a year old, started providing Christmas. I owned a performing arts school at that point still, and started doing performances around Christmas time to raise money to provide for other families who needed help. And so hence, performers with purpose. We did performances to, you know, provide Christmas for these families. And that started 34 years ago. And so and we and we've done it ever since. So all of my kids grew up knowing sub for Santa. That's what we did for Christmas every year. But in 2018 we decided to go ahead and form a non profit organization called the performance with purpose Foundation, and get our 501, c3, status so that we could be tax exempt and and do it right? You know, do it on a bigger scale, I guess. And so now we raise money year round by doing performances, and the money goes to provide Christmas for underprivileged children that need it. So last year, I think we donated like 25 100 gifts for children, both my my daughter in Colorado, works her program, and then we work a program here in in California as well. So we have two different divisions that we provide. You know, toys, gifts, clothing and necessities to the families that need them. Michael Hingson  1:00:21 So if you had one thing you wanted to say to everyone that they should remember or take away from today, what would it be? Teresa Hill-Putnam  1:00:30 Huh, let's see, maybe work to find your purpose and try to make the world a better place. There you go. By whatever that purpose is. What's your purpose? Um, to teach everything that I have been so lucky to learn. Michael Hingson  1:00:56 You know, as profound as it gets, yeah, Teresa Hill-Putnam  1:01:00 you know, if people want anything to yourself, Michael Hingson  1:01:04 yeah, yeah, share, share. People want to reach out to you and so on. How do they do that? Teresa Hill-Putnam  1:01:09 My website is, is performers with, I'm sorry, spotlight performers.com or we can, you can reach out to performers with purpose foundation.com Michael Hingson  1:01:21 and we'll have everything in show notes as well. But it's always good to ask and and get that Well, I want to thank you for being here today. This has been a lot of fun. I'm glad that we had the opportunity to, you know, to do this and to, I think, provide a lot of information. I learned a lot. I appreciate it, and I hope other people who are out there monitoring us also learned a lot. If, if you liked our podcast wherever you are, please give us a five star rating wherever you're listening, or YouTubing us or whatever. But we would appreciate your rating. We love five star ratings, especially, of course, and also, if you'd like to reach out to me, it's easy. It's Michael H, [email protected] that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and for all of you out there, including you Theresa, if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset. I'd love to get an introduction, because we always want to have more people on and be inspired and learn a lot more. And as I said earlier, and I'll say again, if I'm not learning at least as much as anyone else, I'm not doing my job, and so I need the opportunity to learn. So bring on the learning experiences. It's a lot of fun. But again, Theresa, I want to thank you for being here. This has been cool. Teresa Hill-Putnam  1:02:42 Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure. Michael Hingson  1:02:50 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

What if the hardest limits in your life were the ones you placed on yourself? In this episode, I talk with Mitzi Ocasio, host of the “Mitzi, Let’s Think About It” podcast and author of four children’s books, about overcoming self-doubt, managing time as a mom and creator, and building a brand rooted in curiosity and trust. Mitzi shares how growing up in shelters shaped her humility, how she learned to see her platform as a blessing instead of pressure, and why thinking deeply can change your mental health and relationships. You will hear how she built an award-winning podcast, how she handles criticism, and why grace matters more than judgment. I believe you will find this conversation both practical and inspiring as you reflect on your own mindset. Highlights: 00:02 – How financial hardship built her grit. 03:20 – How constant moves shaped her resilience. 16:07 – Why she launched her podcast in 2020. 23:16 – How she overcame self-doubt. 27:39 – The mindset shift that changed everything. 31:26 – The best advice she got about building a brand. 49:22 – What people get wrong about podcasting. 56:35 – The deeper message behind her novel. About the Guest: Mitzi is an avid advocate for holistic well-being and the host of the "Mitzi, Let's Think About It" Podcast. In her podcast, she delves into topics such as mental health, mindfulness, and personal development, exploring the wonders and challenges of living a healthy, balanced life. Through coursework in psychology, Mitzi has developed an understanding of human behavior and decision-making, while also building a solid foundation in analysis. This dual perspective allows her to approach problems from both a human-centric and data-driven angle. She has dedicated her time to understanding the interconnectedness of mind, body, and spirit. Each week, she presents insightful conversations with experts, thought leaders, and everyday heroes. These conversations have provided valuable insights on topics such as stress management, emotional intelligence, and the power of positive thinking, inspiring and empowering us on our wellness journey. Mitzi is also a self-published author of 4 children’s books. She firmly believes that by encouraging children to think differently and more consciously, we can steer the future towards a positive trajectory. She is a strong advocate for the power of our thoughts and the words we choose, as they ultimately shape our lives. When she is not engrossed in her podcast or penning children's stories, Mitzi is a mother to two young boys under four years old, a dog, a cat, and a couple of fish. Her role as a wife to her husband is equally significant. She manages these responsibilities while ensuring a clean, safe home environment for her family to thrive in. Mitzi tries to inspire others not only to think, but to tap into critical thinking. So others' perspective can change their lives into something they never thought about before. Ways to connect with Mitzi**:** Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/people/Mitzi-Think-Inc/100064244280126/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mitzithinkinc X (Twitter): https://x.com/MitziThinkInc LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mitzi-ocasio-3a343a24b/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

Fear silences more people than failure ever could. In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with world-class speaking coach and author Robert Begley to explore why trust, clarity, and moral character matter more than polished delivery. Robert shares how his journey from a stage-frightened kid in New York to coaching powerful speakers was shaped by Aristotle’s timeless principles of ethos, pathos, and logos. Together, we talk about why audiences want conversation, not performance, how stories build trust faster than facts, and why learning to control fear instead of avoiding it changes how you lead, sell, and speak. This is a practical and thoughtful conversation about using your voice with purpose in a distracted and divided world. Highlights: 00:10 – Why trust and character matter more than polish when you speak03:41 – How timeless principles from history still shape powerful communication today08:51 – Why authenticity is essential in an AI-driven, distracted world13:44 – How fear of embarrassment silences people before they ever use their voice17:33 – What speakers can listen for to know if an audience is truly engaged25:06 – Why fear of public speaking is really a thinking problem, not a talent issue33:16 – How storytelling helps messages stay memorable long after the talk ends40:00 – Why learning to control fear, not avoid it, leads to stronger leadership and confidence About the Guest: Robert Begley is a world-class speaking coach, keynote speaker, author, and founder of Speaking With Purpose LLC. With more than 15 years of experience transforming lives through the power of effective communication, Robert helps entrepreneurs, executives, and emerging leaders craft unforgettable presentations that inspire action and drive results. A native New Yorker who once struggled to command the stage, Robert learned to conquer his fear of public speaking and now coaches others to do the same. He has delivered hundreds of presentations across the U.S. and coached NYPD officers, immigrants from tyrannical regimes, Fortune 500 executives, and business owners to speak with purpose, power, and persuasion. Robert is the author of Voices of Reason: Lesso ns for Liberty’s Leaders (Indie Books International, 2025), a book that blends public speaking mastery with historical analysis. Drawing on Aristotle’s rhetorical principles—ethos, logos, and pathos—he dissects the speeches of iconic figures like Patrick Henry, Frederick Douglass, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, Ayn Rand, Martin Luther King Jr., and Magatte Wade to teach timeless lessons for courageous leadership in today’s context. He leads multiple coaching programs including Voices of the American Dream, for immigrants learning to share their personal stories, and Elite Speakers Forum, where rising communicators develop their craft in a supportive community. Robert has also partnered with global organizations like Students For Liberty and Liberty Ventures to teach persuasive speaking to international student leaders and business executives. Robert now lives in Orlando, Florida, with the love of his life, Carrie-Ann. When he’s not coaching speakers or crafting keynotes, you might find him running Spartan Races, reflecting on philosophy, or attending rock concerts or ballet performances. Ways to connect with Robert**:** 📘 Book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D3V8Z19K ✉️ Email: [email protected] 🔗 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertbegley 📣 Substack: https://robertbegley.substack.com 📷 Instagram (optional): @robertusmagnus 🐦 X (Twitter) (optional): @robertbegley About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What happens when addiction, loss, and uncertainty collide with discipline, honesty, and trust. In this episode, I sit down with David Price, a visionary CEO who shares his journey from growing up with addicted parents and battling his own drug addiction to building a multi-million-dollar insurance organization in less than a year. David opens up about hitting bottom, finding clarity through recovery, and learning how mindset, patience, and consistency reshaped his life and business. We explore what it really takes to build trust, lead people well, and stay focused when growth feels uncomfortable. This conversation is about resilience, personal responsibility, and why an Unstoppable mindset is built one honest decision at a time. Highlights: 00:10 – Hear how David Price’s early life with addicted parents shaped his resilience and stress tolerance03:18 – Learn how growing up unstable planted the seed for David’s drive to become a business owner05:01 – Discover the moment David realized addiction was no longer something he could manage alone15:51 – Hear the unexpected reason David walked into a recovery meeting that changed everything24:16 – Learn how small, achievable habits helped David rebuild his life after getting clean37:50 – Understand the hard business lesson David learned after choosing the wrong partner44:34 – Hear how losing six figures of monthly income overnight forced David to rebuild from zero53:49 – Learn why David believes trust is more valuable than money when building an unstoppable business About the Guest: David Price – CEO & Founder, The Price Group IMO David Price is the visionary CEO and Founder of The Price Group IMO, one of the fastest-rising organizations in financial services. His journey to success was anything but ordinary. Growing up in a broken home and battling drug and alcohol addiction for years, David hit rock bottom more than once. In 2013, he made the life-changing decision to get clean and rebuild his life. That moment of clarity became the foundation for everything that followed, teaching him resilience, grit, and an unshakable drive to create a better future. In 2018, David discovered the insurance industry. With no prior experience, he earned his license and built a simple, scalable system that allowed everyday people—single moms, career changers, and those just looking for a side income—to succeed. Within 36 months, he became a millionaire, and by his fourth year he was generating more than $1 million annually. In October 2024, he launched The Price Group IMO, partnering with top carriers and introducing a superior lead program that created even greater opportunities for people to work from home and build real financial freedom. In less than 350 days, the organization produced over $10 million in sales, cementing itself as one of the fastest-growing IMOs in the country. Today, David’s mission extends far beyond personal success. He is dedicated to helping people reinvent their lives, showing them how to earn an income, work flexibly from home, and build businesses of their own. Many of the agents and agencies he mentors are already on track to reach six and seven figures, proving the power of his model. Beyond business, David is a member of the Forbes Business Council and an active voice on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, and YouTube, where he shares transparent insights, strategies, and motivation for people seeking more freedom, flexibility, and purpose in their careers. Ways to connect with David**:** 📸 Instagram: instagram.com/davidpriceofficial 🎬 TikTok: tiktok.com/@davidpriceofficial 📘 Facebook: facebook.com/davidpriceofficial 🔗 LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/davidpriceofficial ▶️ YouTube: youtube.com/@DavidPriceOfficial 🐦 X (Twitter): x.com/IAMDavidPrice 🌍 Website: tpglife.com About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:20 Well, hello everyone. I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. I am your host, Mike hingson, and our guest today is David Price who is by any standard of visionary CEO. He formed the price group IMO, and I asked him what IMO stood for, and he's going to tell us that, among other things, as we go forward today. But he's got a great story to tell, and I'm absolutely certain he's got a lot of interesting kinds of lessons and observations that we all can use. So without further ado, as it were, David, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. David Price  01:59 Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you for the great intro, and definitely an honor to be on a podcast with you. Man, really appreciate that. Michael Hingson  02:06 Well, I'm glad that you were able to make it and you have the time to do it so you live in Puerto Rico now these days, David Price  02:14 yes, Puerto Rico is my home. Been here a little bit over two years and enjoy the weather and the fresh air and everything that comes with Michael Hingson  02:22 it, as we were just talking about that you had mentioned after checking it, can get down into the 60s and 70s. I know out here in Victorville in the winter, we can get down into the teens and below. So, oh well, I stay in the house, and can can keep the house warm if we need to or not. Our home is almost nine years old, so it's really pretty recent, pretty new, great insulation and solar and everything else. So the bottom line is that we stay comfortable in the house, although I wouldn't mind being in a place where it doesn't get below 60 at night, but you know, oh, well, David Price  03:03 definitely, definitely enjoy. I'm from New Jersey, so definitely don't, don't miss the cold. Matter of fact, growing up, you know, I remember we had oil heat where you had to put, you know, tank, and you had to fill the tank with oil. And I remember there's, you know, some winters where we ran out of it, and my mom didn't have money to to get new oil, you know, put more oil, and definitely, uh, didn't have the heat in the winter for, you know, short periods of time and stuff like that. So don't, don't miss that at all. Michael Hingson  03:34 I lived in a town in Massachusetts where our home was heated by oil for a while, and there were a few times that it was actually a rental, and the the owner also had his home attached. But the bottom line is, we did run out of oil a couple times, and we we coped with it, but still, yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about. So here we have gas heat, and that seems to be working pretty well. I'm I'm not sure whether we would have been better off if we had just gone all electric and have more solar panels on the house, but it works. Okay. So we we keep decent temperatures well. So tell us. Let's start. Tell us a little bit about you growing up, what life was like and all that. Where did you live in New Jersey? David Price  04:28 Yeah, so I lived in man, probably about 20 places by the time I was in high school in New Jersey, I grew up to two drug addicted parents. They got divorced before I could remember, and mom had me when she was 18. So it's, you know, really two, two drug addicted kids, and, you know, lived in homeless shelters, the projects, you know, whatever we could do, I mean, hotels and stuff like. That so definitely had a rougher childhood, something that, at the time, wasn't fun. Now I look at that, and I think that helped me develop the mindset and my ability to just handle stress and different things. That helps me as an entrepreneur. My mother, she got clean when I was in middle school and and like, life started getting better then Right? Life started getting better and we stopped moving so much. We went to one school for my whole entire high school, which was really cool. That was a big goal of my mom's that she was able to do for us. And I wrestled. I enjoyed that I wasn't the greatest student. I think wrestling really saved, saved me, gave me some focus, gave me, you know, when you're really good at when you're good at a sport, you get a little bit extra love from the teachers and stuff, I believe. So I think that that really helped guide me in the right direction. But you know that that was little, short, short, brief summary of my childhood. Michael Hingson  06:07 So did you have addictions for a while? Were you actually addicted? David Price  06:12 Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you would think in my mind, like, you know, I love my parents. I'd say they make the same mistakes they did. But yeah, eventually in high school, somebody offered me some some drugs. And you know, I said no, a bunch of different times. And he's like, Oh no, you got to try this one, which was ecstasy, actually. And I remember trying that, and like, my first thought, like my attic mind, was like, Oh my God, this was so good. What else am I missing? And then I just became open minded to try pretty much anything after that. And you know, I struggled with drug addiction on and off for 20 years. I guess, not really on and off. I think you always struggle with it. You just do a better job coping with it. But, you know, towards the end of that time, I was pretty functional for the majority, majority of it. But then towards the end, you know, the drug addiction really takes over, and I finally lost everything, actually back into a no heat story. So I was in New Jersey. I was staying in a friend's apartment. He abandoned the apartment. He stopped paying rent. He stopped paying the electric again, no heat. It was the winter, and he had gas. So I thought, I thought it would be a bright idea to boil some water on the stove and that would heat up the place. And all it did was, you know, throw mist all over the everywhere, right? It was just like, all everything was fogged up. It was like, didn't, didn't really warm anything up. And, you know, finally, just, like, woke up one morning, and I was like, What the heck is going on? Like, I need to, I didn't know what to do. I said, I need to make a change. And I had a girl for that time, and I waited, I woke her up, and I was like, Hey, listen, we're going to Louisiana. She looked at me like, like, I was crazy, and Louisiana was my father. My father lived there, and I didn't have a good relationship with him. I haven't talked to him in years, but I knew he would give me a place to stay, which was actually my grandma's house, on her pull out couch. And that was like 2012 did it magically get clean because I moved, moved to a different area. You know, a lot of times people think you could just move, and that changes things. But I was still the same person. You know, made it a little harder to use, not knowing anyone. But I eventually walked into swaps up meeting in July of 2013 and that was the last time I used so, you know lot more to that. It wasn't just magically show up to meeting, but, but that that was, uh, to answer your question, yes, I struggle with drugs all the way up into 2013 Michael Hingson  08:51 so you did drugs all the way through college and then beyond, yeah. David Price  08:56 So I did college. I did two years online college, and I was actually one, one class short of a associate at the time. I had a pretty good job, which I thought was my career for 1k car allowance. I was managing people, and I was always interested in business, so I wanted to go to school for for business. And I was also in the army, so I had the GI Bill, so I was using that, and I just got to, like, that last, the last class I needed. I was like, you know this at that time, my addiction was pretty bad again. And I was just like, Man, this isn't even something I'm enjoying doing. If I look at back at how I would have done it differently, is I was like, Oh, let me do all the prerequisites first. So I was doing. So I did two years of just like, boring stuff that, like I wasn't, wasn't into when I should have at least been taking the business classes and and stuff like that first, even though, you know, someone told me you should do prerequisites first, in case you want to change your major. But ultimately, I just wanted to learn about business. Michael Hingson  09:55 Now, why did you want to learn about business? What what prompted? You to decide on that path? Yeah. David Price  10:03 So, you know, I remember being about eight years old, and, you know, living with my mom, it was me and my sister. She's two years younger than me. Her name is Jessica, and we're living in the projects in Woodbridge, New Jersey, and my mom was just always out partying. I mean, there's times we came home, the door was locked, it was pouring rain. Didn't know where she was. And, you know, it's Christmas. Sometimes we'd have Christmas presents, but it would be because of a church donated it like you know we were. We had enough to survive, for sure, but we didn't have much extra. And my grandfather, which was my mom's father. He owned a mechanic shop in Piscataway, where he worked on, like, tractor trailers and heavy equipment. And you know, when I would go to his house, and he had a professional interior decorator, you know, the towels match the everything. Everything was just like beautiful. You know, breakfast, you had a real breakfast. In the morning, you had lunch, you had a real dinner. Everyone sat down, and I was like, oh, okay, so this is, this, is it like, it's, you know, welfare, government assistance, or there's the opportunity to be a business owner. This is what life looks like. So those were really the only two examples I had. So, so for me, I'm like, Man, I want to be a business owner. I want that. I don't want what I have. I want what my grandpa has. So I was always interested in business from a very young age. Michael Hingson  11:30 Did he teach you a lot about business? What was how did he interact with you and help? David Price  11:37 Yeah, I think the biggest thing is really by example. You know, I like nice things. He liked nice things. He brought us to nice restaurants. He brought me to Disneyland, like, you know, when I was, like, nine years old. And, you know, never really been on a vacation before that, and not, haven't found any vacations really after that. For a long time, he would buy, like, a new Lincoln Town Car every couple years. So it was just, again, just kind of seeing the lifestyle, you know, the lifestyle that you get to live. And then, you know, watching TV. There's, you know, some, some shows that I like, that that, you know, there are business owners and stuff. So he didn't talk to me too much about business me and and he talked to me about, like, you know, one thing about grandpa was he was a perfectionist. He was just anything he did, he's just gonna do it really, really well, attention to detail. And, you know, a lot of those things, which I definitely see how important that stuff is. Now, maybe I didn't understand as much as a kid, right? You're like, Oh, you're spending too much time doing this or that. But, you know, definitely sees that that way. That's why he was successful. Michael Hingson  12:48 So did was he aware that you had a drug addiction? Yeah? David Price  12:55 Yeah. I mean, I've hit it for most of my life, but, you know, after, after a while, it's pretty, pretty apparent to people close to the thing is, with the attic, and you have a lot of friends that are recovering addicts as well, and we talk about this, and it's like, we think that no one knows, and then then we get clean, and we're like, man, everyone knew. It's like, how the heck why did we think no one knew that that we were messed up all the time. Michael Hingson  13:22 Yeah, well, so I hear, I hear what you're saying, and it's amazing how much people observe, although they may or may not say something about it. After your almost two years of college, got you an associate's degree, did you do any college after that? David Price  13:39 No, I didn't, I know my thing. I wasn't a I wasn't great in school. I didn't like reading much. I enjoy reading now, but to me, I was, I was more of a like, let me figure this out. You know, a great example is I was out of work because, actually my addiction. I got fired from from from a career job that I had, and I needed something. So my buddy's ahead, get your job of working with the landscaper. I'm like, All right, well, I've never done that before. I guess, you know anyone could could do that. So I was working with a landscaper. And you know, if you've never done it before, you're going to be slow compared to what they're used to. And very important, when you're a business owner, times the money, and it's super important. And he let me go pretty fast, within like, a week or two, I just, I just wasn't experienced enough. And I was like, Well, I guess I'll start my own landscape company, right? And and I went and bought, you know, the trailer. I bought the lawn mower. I bought everything I needed. One of my friends was a successful he looks successful. Landscaping business. Talked to him a little bit. He said he'll coach me on some things. And, you know, start, started to put a put an ad of the Yellow Pages and and started going to work. So I was that kind of person where I rather just, you know, try to figure this out and and make it happen, versus you. You know, go to school, knowing what I know now. Now I'm in my 45 right? So, like, now I'm like, Man, I wish, you know, the times that that I was younger, that I was, you know, going to school is definitely wish I took, took it more serious, right? Because I it's not so much that I believe in school more. I believe in utilizing your time better, you know. So like, you know, when I was in high school, just not paying attention and just, you know, guessing to get by on tests and stuff, it's like, I'm there for, you know, majority of the day. So I might as well took the time to learn the things while I was there. Michael Hingson  15:37 Yeah, well, it's all about learning. And obviously, at some point that mindset sort of kicked into you, and you decided that you really did need to learn and and take that approach a little bit more, which, which makes a lot of sense. Of course, David Price  15:54 yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's, you know, it's, it's wisdom, right? It's just, you know, as you get older, you start learning, yeah, and I think the, you know, as I've become more successful as a business owner, you start looking back, and you're like, all right, why am I successful as a business owner? Like, what did I do? And really, you know, it's I got more information, and then I actually utilize the information I got, like that. That's really what it is, you know. And as I try to figure out how to scale my business further and have more success, it's just like, how do I find more information that I'm not doing, you know, and and you know, put put that into good use. Michael Hingson  16:33 Well, you mentioned that you went to a meeting in 2013 and among other things, that caused you to decide to clean up your act, if you will, get a clean life and get rid of addiction and so on. What was the main thing that caused you to take the leap and go out of the lifestyle that you had into what I'm sure you would now acknowledge as a much more productive lifestyle and not have addiction and so on? Yeah. David Price  17:01 So, you know, the crazy thing is, you know, you're taking me back, right? I'm thinking about some, some, like, memories and where I was at and, like, ultimately, it's the the mindset I was in. You know, ego is such, such a tough thing. You know, people talk about ego, and they think, like, Ego means like, Oh, I think I'm better than you, or I dress better than you, or whatever. But for me, like ego is like the inability to learn from somebody else, like that. That is where ego really hurts you. And, you know, I use drugs for majority of of my life. Well, I guess not the majority anymore, but, but for a while, was majority of my life. I'm almost 20 years and, you know, I always felt like I was in control, like I could quit if I want, I could stop what I want, right? I don't need to ask for help. You know, growing up with with my mom in addiction, she was, she was in the 12 step program, right? She was in those rooms. I was in those rooms as a kid, so I knew all about them, and I was like, Man, those people are weak minded. They can't help me. They need it. I don't need this. Like, these are the thoughts that just go through your head right when you when your head's in there and telling these things. And when I was in Louisiana, you know, same thing. I was going to figure this out myself. I didn't realize so. So my drug of choice was, was heroin. And for me, like, I thought that was the problem. What I didn't realize it was all of them were the problem, right? Which included alcohol, like, anything that was going to change the way my mood is my response to things, right? Is the problem because, you know, right now, you put drugs in front of me, like, my mind straight. It's like, really simple for me, like, no, that's bad, you know, have a few beers and you put something in front of me, it's like, oh, wait, that might sound like a good idea, right? My thinking changes when I put a substance in me. So I can't have any substances in me. So I was dating a girl, the girl that drove me from New Jersey to Louisiana. We were together in Louisiana, and she kept, like, stealing from my family. And I was like, Holy crap, dude. Why do you steal? Like, I wasn't the kind of addict that stole from that stole from people. Why do you why do you keep stealing? Like, stop it. I was like, maybe if we bring it to the 12 step meeting, they can help you. So we took a taxi. I didn't, didn't have a car. The car we got there were broke, was broke. So we took a taxi. So in my head, I was just going as a supporter. I was going to help this girl, this, this wasn't for me at all. This was so this girl would stop stealing from my family, that that was the goal and the plan. And she's like, well, you know, some of these meetings are closed, and you have to be addict to get in. They won't let you in. I'm like, Well, I got my badges. Don't worry, they're gonna, they're gonna let me in. And I'm sitting in the meeting, and all of a sudden, I'm just overwhelmed with emotion. I just start crying. And I don't know why I'm crying. At the time, I'm like, What the heck is going on? Why am I crying? Why am I feeling all this? I know now, you know, it was definitely, you know, God thing, a spiritual thing, whatever, whatever someone's beliefs are, but, but I don't think it was. I think it was, you know. So me realizing I was in that right place, and actually feeling something that was gonna keep me there. And I was like, All right, okay. And then, you know, while I'm in this meeting, I'm receptive now, and I'm listening, and they would say certain things, like one was like, Oh, if you're new, you should do 90 meetings in 90 days. I'm like, okay, 90 meetings in 90 days. That sounds good, right? And then the ego kicks in. I'm like, All right, well, I'm going to show my girlfriend that I could do 90 meetings in nine days, and tell her she should do it too. So it again. I'm still trying to help her, right? So I made the commitment to do it. She didn't do it. She went to jail a bunch of times afterwards, and I stayed clean. I you know, I did the nine meetings in nine days, and I stay clean. So it wasn't even a planned thing. It was, it was literally and again, I look at like that was God knowing exactly what needed to happen for me to get me to do what needed to be done for me to be clean. Michael Hingson  20:55 But you, you did get clean and they, I think the the ultimate thing, I guess I would say, is that you, you had a perspective, that you allowed to be created and you grew, and so no longer was being driven by substances. It was really being driven by you and your will and your mind. David Price  21:21 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, um, yeah. Then, you know, that's the first step, you know, get getting getting clean, stop putting substances in your body. And then, then after that, it was, you know, how do I like, I got that figured out now. And it took, took some time before I would say I got that figured out, then it was like, Well, what do? What's the next steps? Yeah, you know what's, what's the next things I could do to better myself? Michael Hingson  21:49 Well, there's always chocolate, but that's another story. But no, seriously, I appreciate what you're saying. So what did you do after you got clean. So you said that was in 2013 so what did you do then? David Price  22:06 Yeah, so, you know, throughout my addiction, what would happen is I would typically have my dream job, which I thought was my dream job, and I would get fired because, you know, I just, they, everyone knew I used in my industry. They just, I was just a really good worker. And like I said, I wasn't, you know, I wasn't stealing things from people, like, you know, things just look, look pretty normal in my life, but then I lose the job. Like, all right, I need to get clean. Like, I need to get clean like, I'm just, you know, I was, I was taking too much, like, I went to work, just too messed up for him, you know. And what were you doing? What kind of work I worked in the oil business and like, inspection. So I managed the inspectors that went out in the field and quantified and qualified, like the ships and the barges and the shore tanks, sort of like, you know, oil companies, like PP and Hess and so and so that would happen, and then, and then and then I would detox, I would get clean for a little bit, right? And then I would get a better job making more money. And then, like, that cycle would keep going. So this time in Louisiana, I was like, All right, I'm not going to work, like, because that would happen. Like, as soon as I have money, life's good. I'm like, I could use again, as I'm going to spend some time and really work on myself and figure out what, what the heck's going on? So I took about a year off of working, and then, then it was time to go to work, right? I was broke, so I definitely had to go to work. You know, I was bumming cigarettes from people, sleeping on people's couches, you know, I was clean, but, you know, I didn't have a car. I was still broke, I was, you know, negative net worth. And I was like, Alright, I need a job, you know. And I started talking to the people in the program, and this guy, Jason, he's like, Yeah, I can get you a job offshore. Because I was in Louisiana, they got a lot of people that work in offshore, and that's a good, good way to make some money. And I was looking to make some money. And he's like, you know, cleaning toilets as a galley, hand, basically, cleaning toilets, washing dishes and mopping floors for minimum wage, 725, an hour. And I've only worked minimum wage as a teenager before that. I mean, my last job before that was like, $70,000 a year salary. But it didn't matter. I was like, All right, yeah, I'll take it. Because I knew, like, once I started at one place, I would get to that next level. Like I just, I just had to get started. And that was, that was it. So I was out there cleaning, cleaning the floors, clean the toilets, washing dishes, and and I was just, I was like, Alright, this is, this is the next step. And you know, quit smoking. I was about nine months clean. I quit smoking when I was working offshore. I was overweight, not healthy at all, not doing any kind of exercise. And I was just like, All right, well, I guess, got to work on that. And, you know, made a goal. I'm going to walk 30 minutes a day on like a tread. Know, they had a treadmill off there, over there. Then I was eating anything, right? So I'm like, All right, well, maybe I'll stop drinking soda. And I was just looking for, like, just small, simple, easy things I knew I can do, you know, because I think a lot of times my life, I'm like, All right, well, let me get healthy. So I'm going to start running five miles a day. And it's, you know, we don't work that way, right? And I learned that. So I learned it's just like, let me find this a small thing I can accomplish, Michael Hingson  25:27 but you, but you intuitively, at least, seem to know the things you needed to do to to better your life and your body, which I'm sure are the kinds of things that you learned over time, associating with people, of course, with the 12 step program and all that. So you, you knew what you needed to do, but you made the commitment and you established the mindset to do it, David Price  25:54 yeah, and the goal was to make the commitment small enough I could almost definitely do it like that. That was, that was the goal. Because, you know, I was, I was a pretty good wrestler. I did scholarships go to college, you know. So for me, like making my goal, walk 30 minutes on it, try to it was, was a super, super small goal, but it just had to be, like something so simple, you know, and that's trying to teach people now, like people will come to me be like, I got a goal to do this. And, like, this huge, huge thing. I'm like, well, let's, let's start, let's start with something that you know you'll do, right? Because, you know, a lot of times people will tell me these great goals they have, but then they don't actually follow through with them. So like, I want to, I want to bring them back to Earth and find something that they can actually do, and then we could work up to that big goal. I don't want them to give up on it, right? I have, you know, now, you know, I'm way more fit now and eating better, you know, I just kept adding on to onto I just kept building on to that. Michael Hingson  26:53 Well, giving up smoking had to be a pretty big thing to do. How did you do that? David Price  26:59 So, you know, there's I've been a pretty spiritual person since, since I got clean. And it's a crazy story. I wouldn't believe if someone else told me this, but I'm gonna tell it. Tell it anyway. I was, I was trying to quit. I swung, like, two packs a day, and I wanted to quit. I didn't know how. Again, same thing. And one day, I was like, You know what? I'm just gonna get my knees and pray. And I got on my knees and I said, God, will you please take the desire to smoke away from me? And that was the last time I smoked. Now it didn't work that magically well, like, I still had the urge to smoke after that, but I would just, every time I did, I just, like, no, God's got this, God's got this, God's got this, and it just got easier and easier and easier. So there's, I say there's two real times where I, like, got on my knees and like, pain as an adult and prayed. And one was to stop smoking, and the second one was for patients. You know, I, you know, being an entrepreneur, you always want things to happen faster than they are, and it causes a lot of anxiety, right? It causes a lot of, like, these negative emotional feelings. And I'm like, man, what the heck is going on? And then I finally, like, stopped, and I realized I was like, Oh, I'm just not being patient. I want to be, like, way further along than I am, but like, it's, it's not unrealistic what I want. And I realized, like, it was lack of patience was causing me a lot of pain. So I got a second time as an idol to really get rid of get that fixed. Michael Hingson  28:48 So I think one of the lessons I'm hearing here is, although you did get clean, and others can do that, it is a process. It doesn't magically, necessarily happen overnight, but it's also a process where you had to create and set the mindset that said you're going to do it, and then you had the mental strength to follow through on that. Yeah. David Price  29:16 I mean, the, you know, I actually teach a mindset course for somebody every five weeks, they do it in a series that they do. And I mean, mindset is the most. It's super important. Everything starts with your mindset and a great mindset, could help you do great things and a bad mindset? Could, you, know, help you really, really fall apart. But, yeah, just just really, being really clear on on what it is that you want to do, understanding, right, like, you know, when I asked God to remove the desire to smoke, I didn't, like, magically think, like, that was it. I wouldn't have to, like, think about it again, you know, just realizing, like, all right, cool. Probably still going to think about, but let me, let me keep putting it in God's hands. And then same with, like, staying clean. Like, you know, I walked into a meeting. I had two in in 2013 but like, I end up going to at least one meeting a day for the first year, you know. So there was a lot of work. So it was like, you know, knowing, knowing what is that you want, come up with an action plan, but then also understanding that, like, things aren't going to go as planned either, and, you know, not quitting through that. Michael Hingson  30:34 Yeah, do you still go to meetings? David Price  30:37 I don't currently, so I do a lot of self development. Okay, you know, when you're you're in a 12 step program, they basically, the word is, you know, if you stop go to meetings, you're going to use and, you know, my thought process on that is a 12 step program is a self help program. That's really what it is. And, you know, I feel like, as long as I'm continuing to doing things to better myself, you know, I continue to grow spiritually and in different ways. Like, you know, to me, like using any any substance is just it wouldn't make sense in my lifestyle, like I go to sleep at eight o'clock. Like that would definitely interfere me go to sleep at eight o'clock, you know, I'm trying to, I'm trying to slow down the rate of aging. So that wouldn't, that wouldn't coincide with my goals. But I definitely see a lot of people relapse. And typically the thing I hear is, you know, they just, they stopped growing, they stopped doing things. They just started existing, you know, and I feel like that's just a really bad place or hard place to be for an addict, well, Michael Hingson  31:46 well, I think for anyone, because I think we're here to learn, we should learn, and we should continue to learn, and we should continue to grow. When we stop doing that, then we've lost all perspective on on how to improve us and other people, because learning is a part of what we always do. David Price  32:05 Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. You know, I was talking to one of one of my agents, and she told me she was in a funk. And, you know, we the conversation ended. I'm like, thinking, so I'm always like, Alright, cool. How do I help this person? What's the next step? And I was like, You know what? I bet you she's not reading. So I sent her a text message, like, Hey, are you reading? Are you been reading? You know? And she hasn't. And I was like, well, and I always like to bring things back to myself. I was like, I know for me, I was like, when I'm learning, I'm never in a funk like, when I'm learning, like, is, I think it's impossible to be in a funk while you're learning, like you said, like when you're not growing, and learning like you're just existing, and when you're existing then then you're in a funk. Michael Hingson  32:49 Even if you're reading fiction. I learn a lot from from reading fiction, because the people who are creating it are exactly that they're creating it, and it may not be a factual thing based on what we consider facts. But a lot of people who even write fiction are writing very creative things that are very thought provoking, and we should take those into account as well. Yeah, no, I agree 100% Yeah. I think that's very important. So what, what work did you go into after you got yourself all clean between 2013 and 2017 and we'll get to that. But what did you do for those four years David Price  33:29 working offshore, like I said, as a galley hand. While I was off there, I was paying attention to see what other jobs I could get. It looked like being in the safety department was a really good job. So the safety one, they don't get dirty. And then the other thing is, the pay was really, really good, so I ended up applying for a job in safety. I moved into that department, and then the job I was on, it was, it was 14 days on, 14 days off. And that's one reason why I want to work offshore, because, like, working for a month and being off for a month. So in that one it was 14 days on, 14 days off. But I'm trying to catch up with my life. So for me, like having 14 days off, I'm like, I got to do something with this time. Yeah. So actually, ran into I was at a car dealership, and this lady came in collecting, collecting a check. And I'm like, this, is this the repo people? They look like the repo people. So I started talking to her, and sure enough, she was the repo people. And I was like, What do you guys ever hire people part time? And they're like, Yeah, we're always looking for good people. I was like, you know, I do this offshore. Can you? Can you make this work? And she's like, Yeah, yeah, definitely. So I'm training up, and this is going to be my first commission, full commission job. I've never worked fully commission. I worked as a delivery driver, right? You know, where you get tips, but, like, never fully commission. And so they're training me, and during the training, right when I'm about to get ready, the. Oil economy collapses in Louisiana. Yeah, a lot of people are laid off. And you know, it's to me, it was like, such a spiritual path, because it was just like, everything just happened in line exactly how it should. Because if I didn't talk to this lady, I would, I would had no work again, and not know what to do now. I'm like, All right, well, I guess I'll be a full time repo person. And at that time, I was making more money than I've ever made before, working 100% commission. And it really showed me that commission would, you know? Because to me, everyone's scared of commission, or, you know, oh, I can't count on commission, or, you know, I can't afford commission. And to me, I was like, Man, this, this is way better, you know, I'm a hard worker. I'm an efficient worker. So it just made sense. So now I'm replowing cars for a living in Louisiana, and in 2016 they had a flood. They had a huge rainstorm, and over 200,000 houses got flooded, and tons of cars got flooded. So now I'm pulling to the neighborhoods looking for cars, and they're there. They're all missing, right? All the houses are gutted. I'm like, Oh, wow, I'm not going to be to find anyone's car, because no one's car is where it's supposed to be now, yeah. So I was like, Man, I got to make a drastic change. So I'm like, What the heck am I do now? And I was like, well, these houses need to be rebuilt, Michael Hingson  36:21 but you were thinking about that. And so it wasn't like you were just reacting. You were you were pondering, where do we go from here? David Price  36:28 Essentially, yeah, yeah, no. I mean, that was, that. Was it, you know, I was still, you know, going through the motions because, you know, we trying to find cars was the best thing I had. But I, you know, meanwhile, going into all these neighborhoods and just seeing all these houses, my gutted in their front, you know, all their belongings outside of like, man, these people need help. Like, it was a new problem to solve, basically, right? So, what you do? So I was like, All right, well, I don't know much about construction. These houses do need to be fixed. I do have a friend in New Jersey that owns a construction company. I called him up. I was like, hey, if I get some houses that some houses that need to be rebuilt, would you come here and rebuild them? He said, Yes. So say, All right, well now I need to know how to do estimates, and that I didn't know either. So I reached out to my other friend who did estimates, and he was out of work. So I'm like, Hey, want to start a company. We'll do 5050, partners, and he said, Yeah, let's do it. So I was just knocking on doors all day long, doing free estimates, doing free estimates, did over 100 estimates, and finally got a call and went and met the person. They had two houses, and they want us to rebuild both their houses. They cut us a check for $80,000 at that time, I didn't own a hammer. I didn't own one tool. I was driving like an old Nissan ultimo with like 200,000 plus miles on it. That was financing that bought for like 1600 bucks, you know, dead broke, and, you know, we went into business. And from there, we just kept getting more and more jobs. We were eight months in. We were invoiced over $800,000 and then I noticed my my partner, which was my roommate, seemed like he was doing drugs and he was with employees. So now I'm like, oh, man, what do I do now? So, so I had to make a decision. And I actually walked away from that business. I walked into the licensing department, took my name off the license, took my name off everything, and just, just handed over to him, because we're 5050, partners. I had no, no control over the business, over him. I mean, that was like my first business mistake I've made is bringing someone in as a 5050, partner. So now when I bring partners and I make sure I'm always 51% just to make sure that, you know if something happens, I have the control over Right, right? Michael Hingson  38:56 Well, so what year was that? That was what? 2016 2017 David Price  39:01 Yeah, 2016 2017 Michael Hingson  39:06 and then by 2018 you started moving into insurance. Why insurance? David Price  39:13 Yeah, so after, after, I walked from that. I really had no I had no plan. I mean, I literally walked from it. The home that I lived in was a condo that we were renting, that the company was paying for. I didn't have anything. And, you know, I ended up catching a job, working in Puerto Rico after Hurricane Maria, for seven months, doing disaster work. So that was good. And before that, I was looking for a business opportunity. I was like, All right, you know, I'm in my 30s now, nothing's I've done up to this point is going to give me the life that I really wanted. I need to find, like, the right vehicle and and just go all in and for that vehicle be right, it has to let me do what I want, where I want, with whoever I. On. And I was living in Louisiana, and I miss being by the group beach. I grew up by the beach, so I'm like, I want to move to Florida. So I need something that's going to let me live in Florida. And I was just looking at calling all my friends are business owners, and just talking to any successful person I can and just trying to get some advice. And somebody led me to insurance, and I heard insurance is a great business to be in. I didn't know a lot about it. I thought you needed, like, a degree to sell insurance. I didn't realize most states you could just take a 20 hour course Michael Hingson  40:31 and and pass a test. David Price  40:33 Yes, take a 20 hour course and pass the test. And I didn't realize it was, it was that easy. You know, wanted to find out how they found their people. Like, how are you selling people? So, like, when I repoed cars, I did real well, because the company I worked with would send me so many cars to find. There's no way I would have find them all. So I always had work to do. I always had cars to look for. When I was in construction, I was really successful, because so many houses were flooded, the local population couldn't handle all the work. You know, people had to come in from from different states to do it. So if I was going to sell insurance, I want something similar. I wanted more people looking for the product than was currently being served. I didn't want to, like, have to, like, talk to friends and family and sit up tents at Walmart and and flea markets. I wanted to make sure there was some kind of, uh, kind of system where, where I could talk to people already interested in insurance, and they had that system. So I got my license and got really uncomfortable for some time, and built, built a built a business. Michael Hingson  41:38 Why do you think, since it probably somewhat goes without saying, but ever since 2018 you've been in the insurance world. What? What is it that really made it click for you? Why did why did it click? And why have you been successful? And we'll obviously talk more about that. But why have you been so successful when so many others have a problem with it and don't make a success out of it. Out of it. David Price  42:03 Yeah, you know they there's some statistics where they say 92% of agents won't make it. And from my experience, I've hired, I hired over 5000 agents since, since I've had my license, and majority of people don't actually do what they're supposed to do. Majority people don't even do what they say they're going to do, right? So, big, big mindset issue, really, if you if you really want to break it down. So that's why most people don't have success. So my first six months, I wasn't really having the success I wanted. Matter of fact, I remember saying to myself, Man, I would have made more money working this many hours at time and a half at McDonald's, and thought about quitting since six months in. So hurricane Michael hit the panhandle, and I was like, Man, I can go there and make a ton of money. I got contractors calling me, you know, I knew disaster work inside and out. And I was just like, you know, it's only been six months. I can't really say I learned anything. Or I can't really say I tried anything in six months. Like, if I do something for six months and I quit, I can't I can't really say like it worked or not, because I don't feel like six months is a long enough sample size, right? If I was like, Hey, I'm gonna learn how to play the guitar, and then I just quit after six months. Like, I just feel like, you can't proficiently, really learn how to play the guitar within six months. So I decided to keep going. And you know, things started getting better, and things started getting better, and as they get better, like the your belief increases, and then as your belief increases, you try harder, and as you try harder, and things get better. And it's just like this, this onward, outward spiral instead of a downward spiral. But yeah, most people, they their activity is so inconsistent that they'll do what they're supposed to do for like, a week, and then they don't feel like they got the results. So then they don't do it for the following week, and then maybe the next week they do something, and then the next week they don't. I always compare it to like, going to the ocean when the water's cold, and just kind of being in, like that, that little spot where the water's right there by your hips, like half in, halfway out, and it's like the most uncomfortable spot to be in, and that's where most people hang out most, most of their lives. Michael Hingson  44:17 Yeah, rather than jumping all the way in and realizing you can get used to it and David Price  44:21 enjoy it. Yes, and it's way faster to get used to it. Michael Hingson  44:25 Yeah, we had a guest near the beginning of unstoppable mindset, who loved to swim in the ocean out here in Southern California. He swam without a wetsuit. He did it all year long. And when he I asked him about what happened when he first started doing it in the winter, and he said, Well, he said, I just decided I was going to do it. But he said, as I moved closer to the ocean, I started moving slower. And he said, I realized I was moving slower. And he said I just had to decide to overcome the fear and jump in. He said, I jumped in in a couple of seconds. I was used to the water. Or he said, I've been doing it ever since. He's even swim nose to nose with a dolphin, and he has been very successful at swimming in the winter as well as in the summer, because he got used to it. David Price  45:12 Yeah, it's amazing. It's amazing what we can get used to. I mean, we're, we're set to adapt, right? I mean, we humans can adapt to so many different things, but a lot of times we let our mind really stop us from so many different things. Michael Hingson  45:34 So in 2018 is when you started the price group. David Price  45:38 IMO, so actually, I started working with an insurance carrier in 2018 and I just had an agency at that time, and I did that till 2023 and the things started, things weren't the same there anymore, you know, just to politely say it, and agents weren't happy anymore. They changed comp plans, they changed the way they did a lot of different things, and it was becoming a really hard place for an agent to be successful and make money. So I decided to add some A rated carriers, right? Some add some other insurance carriers to work with. And when I did that, and they found out, they actually canceled my contracts. So I went from making six figures monthly to nothing, just just in one day, just in one day, it just happened, you know, where my pages completely got shut off. And that is, you know, when, when I started the price group, the IMO, and that was, I think, 351 days ago. And the reason I know that is yesterday was day 350 and we hit $10 million in production in 350 days. Which blows my mind so Michael Hingson  46:52 well, since I promised we would do it. IMO stands for, David Price  46:56 yes, independent marketing organization. So basically, what the IMO is, it's the buffer between the insurance carriers, something like Transamerica, Mutual of Omaha, American general. You know, they don't want to deal with just every agent that wants to be an agent, so they contract the IMO, and then the IMO will contract the agents or smaller agencies. So it's really just a middleman, so you don't have, you know, a large insurance company just dealing with somebody that just got their license. Michael Hingson  47:25 Well, you said that you were when you were discontinued by the insurance agency. You said you were making like six figures a year. What kind of habits did you develop that took you to that within two or three years, so that you were actually making and became a millionaire because of all of that. David Price  47:44 Yeah, there was a six figures, monthly, figures, monthly, it shut off. And, yeah, you know, it's trying to, I mean, there's, there's so many habits, but the the biggest, the biggest thing I see that I do different versus other people is I don't pay attention to scoreboard where somebody might be like, oh, man, I just made more money than I've ever made before in a week or a month or a day, and then they immediately, like, take off the next day, or, like, go on vacation, or they're celebrating, like, my celebration is like, Oh, look at that. Like, for instance, I told you, you know, two days ago, I just noticed we did $10 million in production since we started. Did over, like, 1000 or over 10,000 policies, right? 10,000 families. We helped. And I was like, All right, cool. Like, nothing changed. Like, I still went to work that day. I end up working, you know, till late. So, so it's just a matter of, like, really, continue to continue to put the effort in, regardless of what the results are. And then some people might look at that be like, well, that's crazy. Why is this guy work so much? And then it's, it's really like trying to see what, what's possible, you know, what, what, what you can do. You know, I was always thought like, once I would be in a spot where I'm at now, I'd probably spend a lot of time on the beach and do nothing, but sitting on the beach and doing nothing bores me, right? I mean, I could do it for a little bit, but it's like, you know, entrepreneurs, successful entrepreneurs, like solving puzzles, solving problems and doing things. And that's what I enjoy on a daily basis, yeah. Michael Hingson  49:23 And it's, it's part of the habit, it's part of the mindset. And if suddenly you started seeing a change and something wasn't working, what would you do? So if suddenly your income started to go down, you would certainly notice it. What would you do? David Price  49:39 Yeah, so the first thing is, you look at the numbers, right? Even not just go down, like you know, typically, it's always going up, so even if it's flat, right? I remember in 2000 I think was 2020 and 2021 at the end of 2020 I looked at the production at the end of the year, and it was almost the same as 20. 20. I'm like, wait, how'd that happen? Like, why did I grow? Because I grew very fast all the years previous, you know, by huge percentages. I was like, what happened? What? Why was there so little growth? So I'm like, All right, let me, let me look at that. And then I realized we spent the same amount of money for marketing, like, the same exact dollars for marketing, basically, from from the previous year. So that's why there was no growth. So when, when things start changing, you want to look at metrics. So I'm always looking at I always try to find different metrics. So how many agents are we hiring? How many policies are we writing? How many leads are we getting out? What's the closing ratio on the lead? So I'm checking all these metrics every single month. So that way, I'm looking at improving them. So that way, if there is a problem, we could hopefully catch it sooner than later. Michael Hingson  50:45 Well, and that really was my point in asking the question. You you go think about it, and you look at what's going on, because you know what what works. And you will, you will figure out what isn't working, and then you will adapt and do what you need to do to change it so that you can continue to be successful. But it doesn't sound like, as you said, you're keeping score. You're doing it because you love the work that you do, and I know you've you've done over $50 million in sales and helped 1000s of families and so on. What's the real secret that caused you to be able to have such rapid growth, David Price  51:27 vigorous honesty? You know, the to be able to do, you know, $50 million and help 50,000 clients. You know, it takes a huge team, right? It's not me. I can't do that by myself. And you know, to build a huge team, you need a good culture. And to have a good culture, you need to be someone that people people want to follow people that they look up to and people that they trust. And you know, a lot of times newer agency owners will come up to me, and they'll, they'll as like, you know, what's the best piece of advice you give me, and I was like, just always be honest, you know. Like, you can lie to somebody. You could fool them for a little bit, but eventually they'll figure it out, you know, and then you lost that person's trust. Because if I can get, if somebody's, you know, let's say someone's watching this, and they're like, You know what, I want to sell insurance. They have no experience at all. And if I could get them to, like, really, really trust me and just be really coachable and do everything that they're supposed to do, like, they'll be successful, yeah, but if they catch me lying to them, they're not going to be as coachable, and then I have a harder time helping them be successful. So I think it's just really important to just just always be as honest as you can, even if they don't like it, you know, just be as honest as you can. Michael Hingson  52:42 I I talk a lot about using guide dogs since I've been using guide dogs since I was 14, and I talk about the fact that dogs may love unconditionally, and I think that's true unless there's something that's really damaged them, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people, by and large, is that dogs are open to trust. And it is a it is a two way process. They are looking for someone to be the team leader, but they're also looking for someone who they can follow and who they can trust and not be afraid of, and who they know intuitively is going to support them. And I think that's just as true in in any kind of business that we as human beings deal with, and it is all about trust. I think that's the most important thing that we can bring into business, is developing a sense of trust. And I I've met with customers when I was selling products, and I would learn as much as I could about what they're looking for, why they're looking for, what they're looking for, what they expect to do with it. And there have been times that the products that I had would not do what the customer wanted. And although I'm sure that some of my bosses would have hated it if they were there to hear it, I would tell the customer that this won't work, and here's why, but here's also what will work invariably by gaining that trust, what I've discovered is that in the long run, there will be greater rewards, and the customers who learn to trust me and who learn from my knowledge will reciprocate in the future. And I think that is so true. Trust has got to be the one of the, well, if not the most significant thing that any of us bring into business. And clearly, you've done that. And clearly that's what you promote. You've you've done, as you said, in less than 350 days, you've done over $10 million in in sales. And that that says a lot that there's a lot of trust there somewhere. And it's not just your team, although that's a part of it. It's also the people that that they all work with, whose trust they've developed. David Price  54:55 Absolutely it's like, um, you know, it's way more about. Valuable currency than than money. You know, it's, it's so much more valuable. Michael Hingson  55:05 And I would assume, if I asked you, what are or what, what lessons should other entrepreneurs learn from all of this? Trust would certainly be one of them. Do you have other things that you think that entrepreneurs really need to learn and take to heart? David Price  55:19 Yeah, I think the the other thing is, you know, if you plan on being an entrepreneur and you're not having success yet, you got to go all in and you got to go all in on one thing, you know, what I see a lot of people do is they want to have seven or seven different businesses at once, you know, and you're spreading your focus, then, instead of, like, putting your focus on one thing, you'll be so think about, there's so many very, very successful people with just one business, right, you know, and that's, that's a big thing I see now, you know, once you have a business and it's on autopilot, and, you Know, and then it's okay to diversify, you know, people like, well, you know, millionaires have, you know, multiple businesses and multiple streams of income, you know, but, but I'm willing to bet the majority of them made their money with one and then diversified, Michael Hingson  56:13 yeah, yeah. Or, or, or not. But they, they may very well diversified and and gone off to develop other teams and create other businesses that they've made successful, which, which makes a lot of sense. Can you give us a success story of someone within your team who you are inspired by, who has been very successful, and you've helped so many people. What's a successful story where somebody within your team has inspired you because of what they did? David Price  56:48 Yeah, you know, we got a we got a bunch of cool, cool stories, and always get some new ones. One that pops in my head when you say is Dana. Dana got her license. So Dana reached out to me. We actually grew up in the same town. We used together. She got clean before Me, and she messaged me on Facebook. I didn't like nowhere, and she's like, Dave, I don't know what you're doing, but I want to do it too, just from some Facebook posts she seen. So I didn't even bother giving her any more information. I just sent her the link that you need to sign up for the insurance course. She told me she wanted to do it, so I figured she had all the information she needed. So I sent her the link. She quickly gets her license. And she was like, super introverted, no real sales experience, very shy, very timid, and probably the worst example of somebody that would be successful back then, that's when we went out to people's houses to sell insurance, so probably the least chance to be successful. And she she sucked. She sucked for like two years, like she's my best example of somebody that just just didn't get it for a long time. And she was a retail worker before this, so she worked in, like, the stores in the mall, right? So she had no, no experience single mom, you know, basically, just like, Listen, this isn't going to cut it for how all my daughter to live and but she just, she still went to work every day. So there's a lot of times I'll meet an agent, like, Oh, I've been Asia for four years, but, like, they didn't go to work every day for four years, right? They had a license for four years, but they didn't go to work every day. She went to work every day for two years, and all of a sudden, just out of nowhere, man, she just, she just started having success as an agent. And what was really cool with her is because she went through so much struggle and became so successful as an agent, she was able to be able to help other people go through the same thing. So now she's actually the biggest agency in my IMO. She did almost $400,000 in production last month. She leads a team of amazing people. She has other single moms on her team, and she's just, she's just crushing it. She lives in a high rise in Miami, like her daughter wants for nothing. You know, she's does Jiu Jitsu, and, you know, whatever, like her daughter does Jiu Jitsu. She's like, this little, cute, little six year old thing running around beating up boys in a ghee. But it's just cool. It's just such, so inspiring to like watch that, because it didn't come easy for her. She just kept she just kept fighting, and so So, and I think she's gonna be so much more successful than she is. She's already super successful, but, but I feel like she still has so much more potential. And it's just really, it's just, it's great to watch. It's to me like, you know, I always, I was always short on money my whole life, right? Money was always a big factor. And now it's not so now it's like, the currency that I get paid in is success stories, and that's what really drives me. Michael Hingson  59:57 And I bet that if we were to ask. Curve. She really appreciates where she came from and what she's done and where she's going. She would say absolutely, because she has clearly had to think about it. And that mindset, that thing we call an unstoppable mindset, is, is what really kicked in for her, which is so cool, David Price  1:00:20 absolutely, yeah. No, it's, it was it was amazing. Yeah, unstoppable is the exact, exact word for her. Michael Hingson  1:00:26 Well, if there's someone who's listening or watching us today, who's stuck and who's kind of in a dead end job or whatever, what would you say is the first mindset shift they need to make to to move forward, and the David Price  1:00:39 first thing is, be open minded. You know, I remember having so many different jobs throughout my life, and just like, accepting it, right? Just like, oh, there's my job. There's my dream job to start like, rationalizing it and just, you know, being open minded to something else may suit you better, you know. And a lot of times, people will get really caught up on the vehicle. And, you know, instead of the destination, you know, someone was like, Hey, David, you know, you can live, you can live on a beach. And, you know, make a million dollars a year selling volleyballs, and have a lot of free time and freedom to do what you want, like, all right, well, I'm a volleyball salesman. Then, you know, so, so the, you know, as long as it's legal and moral. You know, the thing to get the lifestyle doesn't mean too much, because ultimately, you know, you want that to open up freedom, you know, I don't spend, you know, my life's a lot more than just insurance at this point. Michael Hingson  1:01:38 Yeah, that's stuff. Even selling insurance is stuff. It's the mindset, it's your mind. It is the the whole world that you've developed inside and outside of you that really makes the difference. Absolutely, yeah, well, I appreciate that. What's the biggest mistake you see that people make when they're trying to start a business, or they're doing a business, David Price  1:02:04 they completely underestimate the amount of effort that needs to go into it. You know, they they want to wing it. They want to do a part time. They Another big one is they don't, they don't work hard for themselves. They don't, you know, like, if someone's at their job, and their their mother in law is like, Hey, can you pick up from the airport? They're like, No, I'm at my job. But when they're they're working in their business, they're like, Yeah, of course, I'll pick you up. We'll go to lunch afterwards, right? Like, you know, I would say the the best thing about working for yourself or that work for else, good, good and bad, depending on on what your work ethic is. So I think just gotta be real clear with, you know, when you're going to work, you'll be real clear with what you're going to do. Make sure you're doing things that are going to create revenue for your business, and then you have to be okay to say no, no to people you know, no one. You know, I'm not picking someone up in the airport, in the in the middle of the day, you know, I'll send you an Uber but you know, there's, there's certain things that that needs to get done, for for the business to run, especially, especially in the beginning. I mean, now obviously I got more freedom so I can do things like that, but in the beginning, like I got work, I got work to do, Michael Hingson  1:03:14 and that's fair. I think that's certainly fair, and that you're the one that has to set your boundaries and your priorities, and as long as you're doing it, as you said, for good, moral and ethical reasons, then that's what you should do. And I suspect that in general, when you do that, even if somebody needs a ride from the airport, like you said, you could send an Uber. You've got other ways of dealing with it. You'll always make sure that people get what they need. I would think that that's the case. Yeah. Well, David, I want to thank you for being here. This has been enjoyable, very educational, and I hope that people will learn a lot from it. I have, and I really appreciate your time, and it's getting on toward dinner time for you will be fairly soon. But you know, who knows? It depends on how late you work. But I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. If people would like to reach out to you. How can they do that? David Price  1:04:13 Yeah, I'm on most social media platforms, Facebook, Instagram, Tiktok, LinkedIn, as David Price official. You can also check out our website, TPG life, calm and submit your information again. TP, G life.com, and then, yeah, but okay, I think you know any social media, just feel free to reach out to me in the direct messages and be happy to help me any way I can. Michael Hingson  1:04:45 Have you written any books yet? David Price  1:04:47 Not yet, not yet, like I still did before I got one, I need to go through and spend some time editing. Michael Hingson  1:04:52 Yeah. Well, you let us know when it's all done. We'll, we'll help promote. Thank you all for listening. We appreciate it. So we would really value you giving us a five star rating wherever you're watching or listening to the podcast, and if you any of you out there, and David, you as well. If you know of anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, we would appreciate an introduction. We're always looking for more folks who have stories to tell us, so we would really appreciate you doing that. But again, David, I just want to thank you for being here and taking the time to be with us today. David Price  1:05:26 Absolutely thank you for the opportunity, and it was definitely a very pleasure to appreciate that Michael Hingson  1:05:34 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

What does it really mean to live with an unstoppable mindset when life keeps changing the rules? In this conversation, I had the privilege of talking with Linda MacKenzie, whose life story spans poverty, reinvention, creativity, faith, and deep personal responsibility. Linda grew up in the Bronx with very little, learned resilience early, and carried those lessons into a life that has included engineering, broadcasting, authorship, and decades of work around positivity, healing, and intuition. As we talked, we explored fear not as something that controls us, but as something that can guide us when we learn how to listen. We also discussed the importance of trusting your inner voice, choosing kindness even when it feels difficult, and staying grounded in truth rather than noise or fear. I believe this conversation offers something meaningful for anyone who wants to better understand themselves, live with greater purpose, and remember that an unstoppable mindset is built one choice at a time. Highlights: 00:47 – Learn how early poverty and cultural diversity shaped a deep respect for people and resilience.03:25 – Understand why looking at a person’s heart matters more than labels or background.07:28 – Hear how lifelong learning and creativity fueled constant reinvention.09:56 – Discover why fear can be used as a signal instead of something to avoid.11:22 – Learn how positive thinking became the foundation for long-term impact.13:09 – Understand why truth and responsibility matter more than opinions.17:49 – Learn how intuition and inner voice guide better decisions.22:29 – Discover the two core fears that drive most human behavior.29:11 – Hear how natural healing and mindset work together over time.32:49 – Learn why giving back to the community creates balance and purpose.46:31 – Understand how positivity shapes collective consciousness.58:58 – Learn what it means to live with responsibility, kindness, and self-trust. About the Guest: Linda Mackenzie is the epitome of the multi- hyphenate! A former telecom engineer who designed worldwide communications networks for the airlines and Fortune 1000 companies, Mackenzie is a mainstay in pioneering entrepreneurial spirit. She launched one of the first used PC stores, a datacom consulting firm,a wholesale gift manufacturing company and was the former President of a mind- body supplement manufacturing corporation. Today she heads one of her proudest accomplishments to date, as President of CREATIVE HEALTH & SPIRIT-- a Manhattan Beach based media & publishing company started in 1995 and Founder of HealthyLife. net - All Positive Talk Radio which commenced in October, 2002. Linda Mackenzie is also an author, radio host, lecturer, audio/ TV/ film producer, screenwriter, Doctoral Clinical Hypnotherapist Candidate, a world- renown psychic who has appeared worldwide on hundreds of radio shows, almost all network and cable TV stations and in several award winning documentaries. Ways to connect with Linda**:** Social Media: Twitter: https:// twitter. com/ lindamackenzie; https:// twitter. com/ positiveradio Linked In: https:// www. linkedin. com/ in/ linda- mackenzie- 590649b/ Facebook: https:// www. facebook. com/ linda. mackenzie. 56 Instagram: https:// www. instagram. com/ healthyliferadio/ You Tube: https:// www. youtube. com/@ LindaMackenzie https:// www. youtube. com/@ healthyliferadio Websites: www. lindamackenzie. net, www. healthylife. net, www. hrnradio. com P. O. Box 385, Manhattan Beach, CA 90267 books@ lindamackenzie. net www. LindaMackenzie. net About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:20 Well, hello, everyone, wherever you happen to be, I am Michael Hingson, and you are listening or watching unstoppable mindset. And today, we have a wonderful guest to talk with. She is an innovator by any standard. She's done a lot of different kinds things. She describes herself as a self as a multi hibernate, and I'm gonna let her explain some of that, but I think she's got some interesting and relevant stories to tell, and I'm really glad to have her here. I'd like you to meet Linda. MacKenzie, Linda, welcome to on top of a mindset. Linda MacKenzie  01:58 Well, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here Michael Hingson  02:02 and you're in Manhattan Beach, right, correct, yeah. So you're not all that far away from me from where I am, up in Victorville. So you know, we could probably open our windows and if we yelled loud enough, we could hear each other. But anyway, tell me about the early, early Linda, growing up and all some of that stuff. Well, that was kind Linda MacKenzie  02:22 of an interesting journey. You know, I was born in the Bronx. My mother was Bostonian, Irish, and my dad was Northern Italian. He had the red hair. My mother had the dark hair, and a typical Italian family, you know, and Irish family, they were constantly fighting, so I delved into books and ran to the church for peace and quiet and and many, many things like that. And we were very poor, you know, we had two dresses. I had two dresses a year. And we, you know, did, had to come home for lunch because we didn't have lunch money and stuff like that. Walked walk that mile to school, too much to school. And we did. I actually lived on the second highest point on the eastern seaboard and so but we grew up really fun. You know, we had when I was growing up in New York, one one street was Italian, the next one was Irish, and the blacks had a street, and the Japanese had a street, and the Koreans had a street, and the Germans had a street. And we all went to school together, and we had one common denominator. We were poor. So when I had sleepovers, I had every kind of person, and we just took each other for who we were and not what we were. And so that was a very nice thing growing up. And because we were poor, we got a lot of advantages. For example, our chorus was in high school, our chorus was taught by Metropolitan Opera singers. So we learned and got many things. And if you were very bright and understood that, we to try and get everything we could do, you know, and use it to improve yourself, it happened so and that's kind of what we did. Michael Hingson  04:14 Well, I think that's really cool, and it's great that you grew up in an environment where everyone understood that we're all part of the same world and and they got along. So you never really had to face a whole lot of or you see other people face a whole lot of that, the kinds of problems that we see in other parts of the world, that everyone worked out pretty well together. Linda MacKenzie  04:35 Yeah, I for us. We did, and I've learned to take people, but I always looked at the heart of a person. You know, I may never have remembered their name, but I would remember everything they said, and I could see their soul. So I I never, ever really saw color of skin or anything like that, and and so it was kind of an enigma for that. I mean, it was. An easy for me growing up. I mean, I had three attempted rapes before I was 11, you know, you had to learn street smarts. You know, you go to church and you got, you're passing the strip club with, you know, all the drunks trying to grab at you at eight years old, trying to pull you away. So, you know, so you learned real quick on what to do and what not to do, and I ended up getting married, put my ex husband through school. He became a biochemist, and went to college for two years, and then quit and put him through school, and then, you know, had a baby at, you know, is married at 19 and had a baby at 21 and, you know, was divorced at 27 and moved to California at well, divorced at 25 I guess, yeah, and then moved to California in 27 and just had a really interesting life. I've been through every strata society, from extremely poor to not so poor to middle class to nouveau riche to old money. I've even jet set. I've done it all so, great experience, no matter what. Did you ever get remarried? Yes, I did. I got I got married to a commodities broker that actually worked at the World Trade Center and in the Mercantile Exchange up there in the comics and the mercantile and, you know, as a matter of fact, there was one day because I was cute when I was, you know, 2728 and my husband was a broker on a floor trader, and he'd say, come in, as it's this particular time, onto the floor, and come meet me on the floor. Well, they didn't really have a lot of women on the floor. Yeah, back in those days. I mean, you know, back in the days where I grew up, my husband had to approve a bank account if I could have a savings account. So you could, you couldn't even, you know, have a credit card if you were a woman, you know. So I went through a lot of stuff. But anyway, I remember walking on the floor, and the whole exchange stopped because he told me wear a mini skirt. And I did. And he went in and did a whole big thing on trading gold, and made a lot of money that day. Walked on the exchange. That's what ended up happening. But Seth, you Michael Hingson  07:17 talked about, you just made me think of something you talked about, you saw people's hearts and so on, but you never remembered their names. I know for six years I worked up at Guide Dogs for the Blind in San Rafael, which is where I've gotten all of my guide dogs. Because after September 11, one of the things they asked me if I come be their spokesperson. One of the things that we heard, and I never believed in until I saw it in action, is that most of the people at guide dogs know every single dog that goes through the campus bills. They'll never remember your names. They don't remember students names, but they remember the dogs, Linda MacKenzie  07:53 right, right? Well, they have intimate Well, I mean, I remembered my mom's name. Well, that's a start. Michael Hingson  08:04 It's just kind of funny, because, you know, the students and the trainers do get along well, but it's just so funny. How so many people up there would remember the dogs. I could go down the corridor going to the Veterinary Clinic, and people would come up and they go, Hi Rosell, or hi Africa. I can't quite remember your name, but it's so funny. That's great, you know, and can't argue with it. It's nice to be remembered somehow, even if it's for the dog. That's right, that's right. So did you just have two years of college, or did you ever finish? Linda MacKenzie  08:39 Yeah, no, I went back and I got a degree, and then I got grandfathered in, and I have a PhD in clinical hypnotherapy, and I have been recognized as a furthering the profession, and also by the American Board of hypnotherapy, they say that I'm the their most creative, prolific minds, which I said, Oh, good. I can use that in PR for at least 10 minutes? Yeah, at Michael Hingson  09:05 least it's something to say. Linda MacKenzie  09:07 Yeah, no, but I've always I was. My Autobiography is called Life is like Girl Scout badges. I'm kind of writing that so and it's because whenever I finish something or did something, you know, I would go on to something else, because I feel life is just a wonderful thing. So I've done many, many things I've done, you know, when I was 18, I won awards from the Metropolitan Museum of Art for my artwork, and I was offered a contract with Columbia Records to sing, but the promoter, the ME TOO movement was back then too, and I chose not to do it, so I didn't go with them, which is a funny thing, because now I'm 76 this year, and I am producing a children's record and next month, and I've written the songs and done the music, and we've got people from Off Broadway and different kinds of people coming together. For for a wonderful record for children on how to stop negative thought, to stay positive and what and how to transcend fear. So that's my project for this year. You know, so, but I've done so many things. I mean, I don't know where you just start. Michael Hingson  10:18 That's fine. Well, I hope to hear the record someday. Linda MacKenzie  10:22 Oh, you will. It's going to be so much fun. It's so much fun. Michael Hingson  10:26 I you know, you know who Neil sadaka is, yes, and he's got this song, Breaking up is hard to do. Well, it turns out that in 2009 he did a whole album for kids. The title song is waking up is hard to do. It's never it's cute. Somebody told me about it earlier this year, and I went and found it. It is a cute album, and it's the melodies are most all of his other songs, but the words are all kids related, and they're very clever. Linda MacKenzie  10:53 Well, this was a book that I wrote about 20 years ago, and and then I and somebody picked it up, and then they said, you need to write a script. And I said, Well, I don't know how to write a script, so I bought a book and I wrote a script, and they it was picked up while Ron Howard had it, and Hawk Koch, who did sliver, and Deborah Johnson, and it's been in play for 20 years. I mean, the last producers that had it was crazy, Rich Asians, and it was never produced, and every single time they wanted to produce it, so I said, You know what, I'm going to write the book myself. So I rewrote the book. My daughter's doing some education. She's a teacher, so she's doing some educational things so that the people in education can, you know, take the chapters and the characters and learn how to be positive from these things and and it's really kind of a fun thing, so I'm really excited about it. So I just said, I'm not going to wait for them. I'm going to do it because the kids need it now more than ever. They just get away from that social media and to really start connecting and to understand that it's not the witchcraft, it's not the, you know, the social media that, or you know what it is, is your own mind and your own self, and using the quality of your mind and understanding that and moving through it and having a Positive attitude that will get you so far in life, and that's what my goal is, is to just, you know, I've been doing that for almost, I don't know, 40 years. Is my whole goal was truth and positivity. So Well, there Michael Hingson  12:33 you go. By the way, since you have written books, I would appreciate it if you would email me and attach pictures of the book covers, because I'd love to put them out as part of the show notes. Linda MacKenzie  12:45 Okay, great. That would be great. I have four books out. I I had started a positive Talk Radio Network back in 2002 and you know, we're going to a lot of we go. We have 45 hosts. It's live. We do podcasts, and we've been doing podcasts since 2004 if you can believe that, and we were pioneer in internet radio and so and that's because I was an engineer for 18 years, and I was the first woman Datacom engineer in any airline in the world, and designed stuff for Continental Airlines and Western airlines and international airlines and things like that. And, you know, air to ground, radio and right go to the when you go to the airport, if you use computerized tickets, that was kind of my I participated in that with other wonderful people, and I worked with microwave and did all of that as matter of fact, I redesigned a computer center. So every year I've done something, you know, and I've been successful, and then I move on, you know. But the radio network is my longest one. That's 23 years. So we'll be 2024, years this year, which is a lot of years, but we're helping people, because it's all positive talk. So although we do have a news program, I tried to make it positive, but we report the old way, you know, with, you know, checking sources and really having too much opinion. And when you have an opinion, say it's your opinion, you know, not trying to which Michael Hingson  14:21 is fair, which is which is fair. Well, if you ever need a guest on the podcast or on any of the radio shows, just let me know. I'm always looking for opportunities to also be positive and and motivate people. So if Linda MacKenzie  14:33 we can, just have to go to the site, and there's a thing called all shows, and go through all of the hosts, because we have over 45 of them, and, you know, and so, and each one does 14:47 their own. Got it? What's the site? Linda MacKenzie  14:50 Again, it's called Healthy Life. Dot.net. It's or heal thy life.net. So it's healthy life or heal thy life. Same got it? Same thing. Saying different, different way of saying it and and you can listen 24/7, I don't do any apps. We are syndicated on 75 channels of distribution. So if you wanted to get on, tune in, or streama, or some of these other wonderful networks in Europe, you know, we go to 137 countries. So it's a pretty good network. And if you want to be happy and get learn things, you know it's just wonderful. We're starting some new shows that nobody's ever done, and I can do an exclusive here for you, if you want it, our network is going to be doing I've been following a while that there's certain kinds of classical music, right? That when you listen to it can reverse cancer, stop Alzheimer's, stop Parkinson's. And there are certain things at certain frequencies. And I have one of the greatest classical Taurus in the world, in my opinion, and he's going to be doing a show where people can listen to the music and then and help themselves heal right on air, I'm stupid by John Hopkins University. And, I mean, it's not just namby pamby or, you know, La La Land stuff. It's no, I'm saving for certain things. So it's it's really no one's doing that. So it's going to be really fun for me to do. Michael Hingson  16:27 Are you familiar with Joe fatale? No. He is a an individual who has done a lot with with sound to not only help people from a wealth standpoint, but also help them in terms of dealing with health. I've, I've been on a couple of his mailing lists, and he's had some interesting, some interesting things, and a couple of people who've worked with him and so on have been guests on unstoppable mindset. But it's an interesting guy, but definitely parallels a lot of what you're saying, certainly stuff, I have also believed, right? Linda MacKenzie  17:03 We've had Jonathan Goldman, who has written, He's a graduate of Berkeley School of Music, but he's been doing sound healing. It was an interesting story with him, and he's on our network, and he's been doing shows with us for over 20 years. And it was funny, he went to Tibet and he was loved the chants of the Tibetan monks. And he went over there, and he said, can I try that chant? And they said, No, that chant, you know, is like 10 years. You have to do it in 10 years, you know, you have to train for that. He goes, Can I try? And they said, Yes. And he got it perfectly. And so now the Tibetan monks go to train with him in Boulder, Colorado every year around June timeframe. So it's kind of a fun story. So he's been in sound healing for a long time. And there's a lot of different things that are true, but like today, you have to make sure that it resonates with you, because not everything that you're hearing is true, and people are bastardizing things. And the closer you are to the truth, and the closer that you and you can depend on your own truth meter, because everybody's got one, yeah. And if you depend on that and listen to just that, and if it tells you stop, I don't want to do this anymore, then you just go to that point, and then you will get the benefit from everything. Michael Hingson  18:25 One of my favorite things that I've talked about several times on the podcast when I talk to people about inner voices and their thoughts is I ask a number of people, did you used to play or do you play Trivial Pursuit? And when they say, Yes. One of the things I constantly ask people is, how often did somebody ask a question? Immediately you thought of an answer, but you went, Oh, that was just too easy. And so you think again, you come up with a different answer, but the first answer that you thought of was the correct one, which is absolutely all about listening to your inner voice and listening to correct what you're being told. Linda MacKenzie  19:00 That's right. You're 99% right if you listen the first time and don't use your mind to think. You know, the brain is divided into two kinds. You know, the left logical brain. What you need if you're crossing a street. I mean, I would like to know there's a car and step back, but the right side of the brain is where your creativity is, and I call the seat of soul. And what happens is, is that your creative side is the thing that heals you. Your left logical side is just like the monkey mind. And so what happens when you're doing hypnosis? What you're doing is you're getting the left brain to listen to a story, but you before you do it, you have an intention, and the intention is the right brain knows exactly what you need to do, but it's very kind, and it lets the left brain sit there, be in control, except at night, and you'll notice that if you're ill, and when you wake up in the morning, you feel, most times, a lot better. And that's reason is, is because the right side of the mind has. Has actually taken control right and the left side of the brain is sleeping, so your right side of the brain can absolutely heal you. And this is where your your gut feel comes from, too, is from the right side of the brain. And we are much more than we think we are. You know, we're just spiritual beings in a physical body, not a physical being in a you know, we're not just physical beings, you know, right? Michael Hingson  20:28 Well, and it all goes back to the spiritual and to the light. And absolutely is true. I know that I've, we've had on on this podcast, a number of Reiki Masters and other people, and we've had people who bring on singing musical bowls and so on. Linda MacKenzie  20:50 And it's interesting about that, because, you know, here in Japan, Reiki has 12 levels, but they're only taught three here, and they're never taught the level to where you protect yourself, because when you're out there in the universe and you're going into doing some of these things, everything exists, even a thought form exists. So you want to make sure that you're as protected as possible when you're doing these things right and so, but most of the people don't know, because they don't allow you to do that. And Reiki, there is a you're there in it, day in, day out. That's your career. You know, it's not just a pastime. And the Tibetan bowls are great. However, for me, when they do the regular way of doing it, it's like chalk on a chalkboard. For me, when they do it opposite and backwards, I'm in heaven. So it's really interesting how everybody's body is different. Every person is unique. And we have to understand that when we're looking at health or with mind or with body, we want to understand that we are so important. Each one of us is important. Never should be belittled or, you know, and treat everybody with kindness and love and and respect and truth Michael Hingson  22:06 exactly right. And I'd love to see a whole lot more of it than oftentimes we do see, but I know that that it's so important that we focus on doing things to protect ourselves. And one of the things that that I talk about is I wrote a book that was published last year called on stop or excuse me, called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith. And the whole idea behind the book was that at the beginning of the pandemic, I realized that although I had escaped from the World Trade Center, and I had, in fact, known what to do, which was a mindset that clicked in when the emergency happened. I never really worked to teach other people that. So I wrote, live like a guide dog, and used lessons that I learned from all of my guide dogs and my wife's service dog, the lessons from those dogs to, in fact, learn how to deal with the different things that we have to deal with, and learn how to, in reality, control, protect ourselves and move forward in a positive and constructive way. In other words, really learning about the fact that you can control fear. Fear is not something that you you need to allow to overwhelm or, as I put it, blind you or paralyze you. The reality is that fear is a wonderful thing that you can use as a very powerful tool to help you function and succeed even in the most adverse circumstances possible. Linda MacKenzie  23:40 Well, I one of the songs on the record is called fear is fear is my friend, and it's a wonderful song, and it teaches you that fear. I did a big study for 20 years on fear, right? Because the only way that people can control you is through fear. Okay? If you don't have fear, no one can control you. No one, okay, yeah. Michael Hingson  24:08 Well, and just to interrupt for a quick sec, I would say it's not that you don't have fear, but you control it. Linda MacKenzie  24:16 Well, you overcome it. You Michael Hingson  24:17 exactly, right, exactly. You use it. You use it in a powerful, better way. Anyway, go ahead, right? Linda MacKenzie  24:23 Well, fear does, for me is that when fear comes in, it's, it's a wake up call, saying, yeah, look at this. What is it that you're fearful of, and what? Because the only way you can go through exactly right through it. And so when I did this study, it was very interesting, because I found that fear comes from two places. One is a fear of loss, and the other is a fear of death. When you fine tune fear all the way all the way all the way all the way down, it's fear of loss or fear of death. And it's funny, because we come in with nothing, we're leaving with nothing. The only thing we take. With us is the love we give and the love we get. That's it. And I've been on the other side and worked on the other side for the British government and all sorts of stuff, so I know that there's life after death, yeah. And so therefore there's really nothing to fear except to find out what the lesson fear is trying to teach you when you learn it, and you learn it all the way that lesson, you will never have to repeat it in your life again. And so fear is so, so important, and yet not to be feared. Don't fear Michael Hingson  25:35 don't fear it. No, as I said, it's a very powerful tool that can help in so many ways, right, which I think is really important. Well, after college, you started working at various things. What did you do after college? What was kind of your first endeavor? Linda MacKenzie  25:51 Well, I started with the New York telephone company, and I was called when I was selling touch tone telephones. They had just come out. Michael Hingson  26:01 Was it, was it called? Was it called 9x then? Or was it was that? Linda MacKenzie  26:05 Well, in New York, it was no. It was, yeah, that was the trade trade, yes, but it was New York telephone company, yeah. And then I went to work for the National radiology registry, and I designed a prison. When I moved to California, I started to really take off, and I designed a people coming out of prison weren't able to get jobs and and so the X ray they did teach in some prisons in Chino, as a matter of fact, how to become a x ray technician and and so, and an ultrasound wasn't even out back then, back in 77 so I started a prison program to it was a temporary agency so that when a doctor's office or a hospital, their x ray technicians didn't show up, they would call us, and then we would send somebody out, and then they would like the people we would send, and they would give them jobs. So the we so I tried to do that. And then I started working for the airlines and and I they said, Well, do you want to be a reservation person? I said, No. And they said, Well, do you want to be, you know, at the ticket counter agent? Yeah, no, no. He said, Do you want to be a flight attendant? I said, No. And they said, Well, what do you want to do? And I said, Put me in accounting at the mail desk. I want to see where the money goes, and then I'll figure out where I'm going to go. And they said, What? And I said, Just do it, you know. And I had made friends with someone, and so they gave me the job, and I kept moving. And every six months I'd find another error, a million dollar error, and this and this and this. And I finally worked my way up into computers and and then I was the very first woman in any as a data com engineer in any airline in the world. And I started doing a lot of things like that, and then went to work for Western airlines. And then I did worked for CETA, which is Society International Telecommunications aeronautic, which is a largest telecommunications company in the world, based in France and Switzerland. And then I from there, after my daughter graduated from college, I said, enough of this engineering. And so I quit, and I started a metaphysical company, and I got onto a lot of TV. I started my radio show in 1996 I started writing books, and I then from there, I was president of a dietary supplement manufacturing company for a while, and then I manufactured audio tapes and and our company, our vitamin company, was the first company to do mind body medicine. So we would have my partner, was Vice President from GNC, and we started a business in New York and in California. And what we did was we would do an arthritis formula, which she was great at formulation. She was one of the best in the biz. And I would do audio visualization tapes, so that when you were taking the formulas, you would be working on a body level, but the mind would, you would start helping to grow bone with the mind. So we were the first ones to do all these wonderful things for that. And we sold to Trader Joe's and house markets and all sorts of stuff. And then the big farmer came in, and then that was that, you know, they bought up almost all the vitamin companies, and then they started, you know, most of the vitamin companies out there aren't worth their salt, and they're not giving you good vitamins. So and then from there, I went into doing the radio network and which I've been doing, and then I stopped doing books. And then two years ago, I said, you know, I'm getting old, and if I want to get these books out, I better get them out. So I probably. Myself that I was going to do one a year. And for the last two years, I did those two new books, and then I was, I was going to do the children's book this year, but they say that April is the best time to release a children's book is that's when the stores and the education people are looking at it and getting towards summer and all that. Yeah, yeah. So I'm waiting until next year to release that, the album and stuff. But so this year I had to put together a new book, which I'm doing. I just, I'm almost finished with that, so I can release it in September, and that is going to be where it's, I think it's going to be called, help yourself heal with natural remedies or naturally, and it's going to have 40, or about 40 different illnesses, and all the natural medicine with it, plus in the back, it's going to have what is an amino acid, all these terms, so that people can understand. I like to do things that are complete and and I don't do anything if somebody has to get something from a book or a product or a thing that I do. Otherwise I won't do it, yeah, because I want it for everyone, you know. So, so anyways, I'm, I'm working on that as we 31:08 speak. Well, there you go. Well, Michael Hingson  31:11 so it'll be out in like, September or October. Linda MacKenzie  31:14 Yeah, exactly. I'm, I'm doing, I'm just about completed with it, and I just have about three or four chapters to go, but I keep finding new things I want to put in. For example, you know, since there is a censorship on the natural health sites, I'm going to include all of the wonderful health site, health natural health sites, so that people will have a reference so they don't have to worry about things, you know and where to get information. So it's going to be good. Michael Hingson  31:44 Well, when that book gets to the point where you have a book cover, I certainly want to put that in the show notes as well. Speaker 1  31:50 Okay, great. That'd be great. And Michael Hingson  31:53 maybe we can release this about the time the book is is made visible to the world, so that that'll help. Speaker 1  32:01 That'd be great, sure. Well, so what Michael Hingson  32:05 do you consider your profession today? Linda MacKenzie  32:09 Me, I'm my own profession. Me, the I don't have a profession. I have many hats that I'm wearing, right? So I mean tremendous amounts. I'm still running the radio network, and in a radio network, you need 21 individuals to do it, and there we have four, and I'm doing about, I don't know, 10 or 12 of the 21 things to do. So if you want to give me a hat for there, that's that. And then I'm an author and I'm doing the record, so I'm that, and I'm a radio host and, you know, and I give pictures. And the thing is, is that it's like, I'm not busy enough, but I love giving back to the community, because, you know, when you are there's six things you need in your life to be happy and balanced, right? And one of them is giving to the community. So I wasn't really before covid, I was doing a lot, but I wasn't really doing anything for my community. So what I did was I it took me four months. They had to do a homeland security check and a thumbprint and, you know, all sorts of stuff, to do guided meditation for healing for seniors. So we're going to be taking, and that's starting in two weeks, in August 8, and we're, we're going to be doing at the Senior Center in Redondo Beach and and so people will come, and we're going to work on different kinds of anti aging issues, like arthritis and, you know, macular degeneration and bones and diabetes and stuff, and every every two weeks, I'll be doing a guided meditation and helping people heal with that. So, so now I've got the community in and so I've got all my six pieces of my pie, and now I'm stable again. Michael Hingson  34:00 There you go. It's nice to have peace in the world, right? Yeah, it is. It is. So tell me, given all the things you've done, tell me a story or two about things that you've done, something very memorable that comes to mind. Linda MacKenzie  34:15 Oh, there's so many, I'm sure. I mean, because on top of that, you know, I've been a psychic since I'm eight years 34:21 old, right? So how did you discover that? How did Linda MacKenzie  34:25 you I saw God when I was eight? Okay, I'm very God based. I'm not from the planet Altair or the universe. I never took a course. I mean, I listened to God. God said, Jump. I said, Hi. How high and and that's what I do. But I've done I'm very respected in the community. I do a lot of, like, a lot of things for for that, there's, you know, I've done documentaries on it, and there's 17 different distinct psychic abilities. I have them all, and I don't do. Two of them, I don't do prophecy and I don't do trans mediumship, which means that an entity will jump into you and talk through you. And that happens because for a long time, I was on ABC, NBC, BBC, Japan TV. I worked with International Society for paranormal research, and we went over to London to investigate for the British government, you know, some of the Belgrave Hall, whether the ghost things were real or not. And one of the things that was interesting, because there's a lot of stories on those you know that are like, kind of titillating, or saying, Oh, what's going on? I was so basically, I tested my abilities for 37 years before I came out. So what I would do is say I was 16, and I would have pre Cognizant dreams. So I would write the dreams out. And what I would do is I would give them to my girlfriend after I wrote them, and then when one of the dreams would come true, I'd have a witness that was there with me, and I'd go over to her house, and I'd say, hey, Eileen, can you pull the dream with the roller coaster there? And she would pull it out. And then I said, read it. And then that way, I learned to decipher what was coming from God, what was coming from me. Because, you know, there's a lot of, you know, where if you don't know how to manipulate the energy. So it was a long, long time I, you know, by the time I was 15, I had read every metaphysical book in the New York Public Library, everyone, and so I took it very seriously. And I was, you know, busting psychics in New York at 21 and and then finally I just stopped, and I didn't come back out until I was about 37 and so when I went to London, they there was a, we had a Cora Derek. A Cora was the one of the leading psychics in London. And then we had Peter James, who was on sightings. And then we had me, and we three went over. And then we would go into they would take us individually to these different sites. And they would say, Okay, what do you feel, and what do you see? And so I would be taking, you know, they take me to these different things and, and I would see all these different things, and I would say it, and it turned out, I'm saying I'm not very comfortable here. I'm not comfortable here. And then we go to the next site, and I would tell them, Oh, I see a woman with a red hat. And I gave them names and places and dates and and it turned out that they were taking me on the path of Jack the Ripper, and to the point where I gave them new information on Jack the Ripper that they never had before. And so I have an ability that I can stand on a piece of ground, and I can go back to the beginning of time and tell you names and dates and places of who was there all the way back up. So there's a lot of things, and the government has asked me to work for them on many projects. They've been charting me since I'm 15 and so, and I just don't, I don't do and one, and I'm not going to say which, but one of the presidents of the United States, when they were in office, asked me to be their psychic, and I told them, I don't do politics, sports books or lottery tickets, and I turned them down. I mean, I was going to go to dinner with them, because Henry Kissinger was going to be my dinner partner at the Jonathan club, you know. And I thought he was an interesting guy, you know, whether you liked him or you didn't like him, he was an interesting guy. And I like to meet different people, because even if you it's not somebody you like, you need to understand the people so that you know how to handle them in a correct manner, you know. And so even if you don't like someone, you treat them with respect, and you learn you better, you understand, you know. So, so that's those are some stories. Michael Hingson  39:01 So, so let's, let's get to the reality of the world. Did you ever visit the Del Coronado hotel and talk to the ghost down there? Linda MacKenzie  39:08 Yes, oh, good. We did. We were one. We were the group that was doing it, that was filmed. We did the Queen Mary. We did. We were, if you saw that on television. It was probably me there. It wasn't as as haunted as some of the other places. I mean, you know, there was one place in England that was very interesting, so we did a documentary called ghost of England, and there was a one house. I don't remember the name of it, but there was a three generations that had died that were still in the house. The house was in the family for 300 years, and I released a little girl there that was eight, that was a, you know, a spirit there, and I released her to her mom. She had died of consumption. It was really interesting, because. Because they knew of each other, and it was, here's these three different generations, and they can see each other, and they know each other. So that was very interesting, because the Society for paranormal research actually did research into the phenomena of ghosts and the ghost at Belgrave Hall, we found we were very truthful. There was no ghost at Belgrave Hall, okay? I mean, it was explained away by phenomena that, you know, street lights and rain stuff. So we did a lot of that, but we wanted to make sure that everything that we did was in truth. And then another thing that we found was I did another documentary called ghost of New Orleans. And New Orleans is a very, very, very strange place. And I actually went back and they asked me to do a I did a 17 part interactive museum display for a paranormal Museum in New Orleans, and it was all teaching about psychic ability and how not to fear it. And it's not the devil's work. It's, you know, it's just a natural ability that we have. And I wanted people to understand that, but get the truth not from a lot of these people that are just talking that don't know, you know. So anyway, so we did in New Orleans. It was interesting, because the ghosts work together. We were all on different floors, and on each floor, they would give us papers, and they would, you know, newspapers in the morning, and the newspapers would end up in our rooms, in different places all the time, and it was just and we didn't move them. Nobody touched them. The room wasn't able to get in. So there's all sorts of phenomenon there that is just kind of interesting, you know, there. Michael Hingson  41:47 So just, does some of that have to do with voodoo and so on, but just because they're so prevalent down Linda MacKenzie  41:52 if you understand that everything exists, you have to none of that was the voodoo, because, very specific thing, yeah, and it's a specific practice, okay, and so it's not something that I would get into. Or, do you know? I mean, it's not we were, I was attacked several times there. I mean, we went into a we went into a house where there was an entity there that had committed 27 murders, and it was they were all buried in the backyard, and they never even knew until we told them about it, when he came after me on that and so you know, you you have to know what you're doing when you're Doing this, too, you know. So you know, but most ghosts, you just tell them to go away, or if you and sometimes you want to see them, you know, maybe it's your mom or your dad that you're missing. So one of the ways that you can do that is you can say, Hey, before you go to sleep, put a pen and a pencil by your bed, and just say, I would like to see you, dad tonight, and and then you say, I would like to remember that I saw you, yeah. And then when you get up in the morning, you just jot down little words or something, anything that you remember. And then after a while, you'll be able to get a rapport where you'll be able to start to remember, and then able to communicate. Michael Hingson  43:23 Yeah. And the reason I asked about the Dell, just because that's that is a a ghost I've, I've heard so much about, and a friendly ghost, as I understand it. So there's a woman, I guess what? She died in a room there. But it's one of the things that everybody talks about with the Dell all the time, of course. Linda MacKenzie  43:40 Well, one of the funniest things that happened was, well, there was two funny things. One was, you know, we were at the doing the the Comedy Store, the magic and magic club. And the Comedy Store is what that Tootsie shores place, anyway. So we were doing, doing the Comedy Store, and there's a ghost there that puts his hands up people's skirts. Well, that's nice. I went in there, and they didn't tell me, and all of a sudden, I'm going, what the heck. And I look there and I see and I and these, and they said, Oh yeah, we forgot to tell you. I said, Yeah, you didn't forget you wanted to catch that on camera. I said, Well, you did. So it's funny. It's a comedy Michael Hingson  44:28 story. I'm sure the ghost thought it was funny. Linda MacKenzie  44:30 Yeah, he did. I bet. So, yeah. So there's, there's, I have hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of stories and and that's my book coming out in 2027 that's going to be called, and then what happened? Paranormal stories, believe it or not, you know. And those are going to have 40 stories in there on things that have happened to me, where people are going to say what? And you can believe it or not, that's coming Michael Hingson  44:58 up too. So do. Well, and that's that's ultimately it. People can decide to believe it or not, and a lot of people will poo, poo it. It doesn't change the reality of the situation, though, Linda MacKenzie  45:12 no, but you know, it's okay. Wherever you are is good, as long as you love one another, or at least try and be kind to one another. I think we can accomplish a lot just by doing that, yeah, and agree to disagree. You know, we we don't have to get upset if the other person has 100% doesn't agree with us. We have to just agree to disagree and not try and get heated. But the Michael Hingson  45:38 other, the other side of that, or the other part of that, not the other side, is that if you really take that, that tact, and you agree to disagree and you continue to converse, you never know what you're going to learn, as opposed to what we see so often now, somebody disagrees, and there's just this complete block wall that comes up. There's no discussion at all, and that's never a good thing to do. Linda MacKenzie  46:03 Well, this morning on my radio show was interesting. I went out with a girlfriend of mine, and she's really into these conspiracy theories, and I'm just not there, you know. So she was trying to put her point through and saying, you know, the collective consciousness has to understand this so we can do something about it. And I said, Yeah. I said, Well look, I said, Here's what I've decided. I said, I'm 76 if somebody else wants to do the activism for this kind of stuff, then at 50, go and do your thing. I said, but I think that when you start getting angry and you start getting heated, what's happening is the collective consciousness is there for everyone. We're all part of everything. We are part of everyone and everything. And so when you get upset, that's not helping the consciousness to make everything right. And if you get a group of people thinking the same thought, you can actually change consciousness and make the world better. So instead of sitting there, do something about it. Donate to something. But don't just sit there and talk about it, you know, actually do something about it and start making sure that you're staying positive about it, and what you can do positively for the situation. And don't get caught in the controversy because you're making more negative energy, yeah, and that never works, no. Positive always overcomes negative. So if you want something to happen, think positive, be buoyant, positive always overcomes negative. So you need to do that. Michael Hingson  47:39 And it is, it is so true, and so many people, you know, we're, we're in a world now where there's so much negativity. It's so unfortunate, because I think people miss out when they do that. And you're right, that's, it's not really part of the good, constructive collective consciousness, either, Linda MacKenzie  48:00 right, right? So we just have to, you know, people think that they can't do anything when things happen. And what I'm saying if you come from the premise that everything is energy, right? And so if you are just loving your spouse or loving your dog or being kind to people that energy is positive, right? And so sure you are doing something, because if we make a lot of positive energy in that collective consciousness, as above so below, right? So if we go ahead and do that, then it will drift down, and we will have a better, happier place, but being negative doesn't help you. Negative makes your immune system depressed. It gives you illness, and it's these are all proven things, so you might as well stay positive. And I don't mean Pollyanna, where you don't things, but you know, understand things and understand that there's a greater force in the back of things too, that, you know, it's not just all about us. You know, there is a for me. I believe that there's a God, and God is in control, and so we have to trust that to some degree. Michael Hingson  49:14 On September 11, and I wrote about this in my book thunder dog, and I've talked about it a few times here, when I was running away from tower two, because I was very close to it when it collapsed. The first thing I thought of as I started to run was, God, I can't believe that you got us out of a building just to have it fall on us. And immediately I heard in my head, as clearly as we're talking right now a voice that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle, who is my guide dog, and the rest will take care of itself. And I immediately had this absolute sense of peace and calm and conviction that if I did that, I'd be fine. And I was so. I'm saying that in part to tell you I understand exactly what you're saying, and that was kind of perhaps one of my experiences. But the bottom line is that we need to learn to listen. And one of the things that I talk about and live like a guide dog is that so many people worry about every little thing that comes along. They are just worried about, how am I going to deal with this? Or the politicians are going to do this to me and that to me and everything else. And the reality is, we don't have control over any of that. What we have control over is how we deal with stuff. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't be aware of what's going on around us. But by the same token, if we worry about every little thing, and we don't really worry about the things over which we have some influence, we're only hurting ourselves. Linda MacKenzie  50:50 And it delays it, and it delays it, and it delays it. So you if you want things to get over quickly, learn to listen. And sometimes, you know, people would say, what is meditation? And I said, Well, it's kind of like prayer. You're listening to God's answers, you know. So I mean, there, I've never been alone, because I've always had a very strong connection with God. And as a matter of fact, it was very interesting. I'll tell you the story about the radio network, and basically, I had just been offered by Sci Fi Channel. They said, We love working with you. So would you take and there was a big 51:31 ghosty, a ghost Linda MacKenzie  51:36 show coming up. It was very big. And I said, No, I won't do that because it wasn't in truth, and you just want to make people cry. You want to feed off those emotions. That's not me. So Mary from sci fi said, You know what, Linda, we like working with you, so just go home and design a show for us, and we will do it. So I got home and I was so excited, because now I was going to make the big money, and I was going to get known and God comes in, and he goes, Linda. And I said, What? And he said, I want you to start a radio network. I said, What? And he says, Well, look. He goes, I gave you all the tools to do it. He goes, You were a data com engineer, you've been in radio. He goes, you're doing positive stuff. He goes, I want you to do a positive network. And I'm going, Wait a minute. I says, you know, I'm just getting this big opportunity, you know? And he goes, Well, listen, he goes, You know, when you're doing a lecture, now you're he goes, you get 1000 people coming to your lecture. He goes, so you're a point of light. He goes, think if you were to get 4045, people to do a radio network, all with positive thought. He goes, then you become a lighthouse. And I said, Okay. And I said, But what about this opportunity? And he goes, Well, you don't have to do it. And I said, well. I said, God is asking me, and I'm going to say, No, I'm not going to do that. I said, No, that's not going to happen. I said, and my Italian came in because I said, Okay, I'll do it. But when I get upstairs, you and I have it a sit down, and he just laughs. He thinks I'm funny so, and he has always been with me 100% of the time. And a lot of times he'll tell me, No, you can do this yourself. You do it, you know. And so I but I've been in a realm where I can go back and forth and I understand, you know. And I talk, you know, you can talk to anybody you want, sure, if you're if you're there, you know, if I need help from Einstein, I'll say, Hey, Uncle L, I need you what? And I go, ask God, Michael Hingson  53:43 yeah, it's it's interesting. It's so many people just belittle so much and but everyone has to make their own choices, and I don't have control over the the choices that people make. I can only talk about my experiences and what I do and so on, and people have to make up their own minds. Which is, which is the way it should be. I think that all of us are individuals that are given the opportunity to make choices, and we can decide how we want to proceed, and the time will come when we will have to defend our positions, or it will have all gone really well. And so the bottom line is that that we make the choices and we have to live by what happens as a result the consequences Linda MacKenzie  54:36 right, and we have to take to learn, to get take responsibility for our actions. You know, the songs on this album address all the major things that we need to do to stay positive and to have a happy life. And so it's not just for kids, it's for parents, and it's for grandparents, and it's for anyone who wants to listen. And it's it's going to be a good. Thing when I get this all done, and I'm it's one of them, my, one of my projects that I wanted to do for a lifetime. And once I get this done, I'll be happy. Michael Hingson  55:09 So well, you do a lot of different stuff. You must have a personal life too. How do you balance the two? Well, and what do you do in your personal life? Linda MacKenzie  55:20 Well, I love to exercise. I do. I love to cook. So once a month I do a psychic soiree, you know, so I do. I've been on a specific diet, you know, no dairy, no salt, no sugar, no effervescence, no since 1992 I don't go to medical doctors. I haven't been to a medical doctor since 1992 and I do everything with just herbs and exercise and getting enough sleep and stuff. So I cook for dinners, and I have a family, and we go out, and I have wonderful friends and bands that I follow in town, so we go out. And I'm actually even going out on a date next this coming Thursday night, which hasn't been for a long time, but so there's and then I do a lot of working with the senior centers and so and then do and I love watching dumb TV that I don't have to think. I like dumb Michael Hingson  56:23 I like dumb TV too. I know exactly what you mean when you say that. I have always been a fan, also, of old radio shows. So I love listening to all the old time radio shows from the 30s, 40s and 50s and so on. And some of them can make you think. But by the same token, the reality is that there's something to be said for just being able to escape, right? Linda MacKenzie  56:46 My latest thing is watching Chinese soap operas. They're 40 episodes long, and I love them. And even though they're subtitles, you get to see how they think and how a different kind of person, you know, culture thinks and does, and it's interesting that you can see how much the same they are as we you know, that they want the same things, they have the same values. You know, because we are all the same, and we have to understand that Michael Hingson  57:19 I know, one of the things that I've said many times, that I know, I'm sure, that a lot of people just think I'm crazy, but I point out that what happened on September 11 was not a religious war. It was a bunch of thugs who wanted to try to bend the world to their will. But that's not the the Islamic religion. The reality is that all of the religions, all the major religions, especially in the world, are always to get to God, and Far be it from me, to judge someone else because they happen to belong to a different religion or subscribe to something different than what I do. Linda MacKenzie  57:54 Well, it's interesting that I did a study on religion. As a matter of fact, on on our radio network we have James Bean, and he's been doing, he was on wisdom radio, so for 40 years, he's been doing spiritual awakenings, where he does comparative religions. And it's interesting that all of the religions have a, you know, a Jesus, you know, or a Mohammed, and they all die, and they all get resurrected in three days. Every single one of the religions has that. And if you and every single one of the religions has a version of the Our Father, Mm, hmm, almost exact words, because Jesus, you know, so, so you know, as far as respecting other religions. I think you have to too. But nothing should be overwhelming, you know, right? Like, oh, absolutely nothing should be overwhelming on because of religion. Like, I don't think that the girls should have to wear burkas because it's religious, right, you know. I think there's some things that you know are not exactly right. Michael Hingson  59:00 Well, you know, Tolstoy once said The biggest problem with Christianity is that people don't practice it. It's the same sort of That's right, concept. I agree with you. I don't think that girls and women should have to wear burkas or not be educated, or not be educated. Well, I wish, I really wish they would be educated, yeah. And so today, actually, yeah, oh, they do and and I think more and more people are beginning to realize it, but not enough yet, in some of these countries where they're willing to stand up and and say, We're not going to tolerate this anymore. Linda MacKenzie  59:32 But I hope about the money, though, unfortunately, so it's power and money, but when they understand that it's the love and kindness that's more important, and that's the only thing that you take with you. Yeah, maybe we can change this world, and I hope we do well. Michael Hingson  59:50 I agree with what you're saying, and I think that people, but people do need to, at some time, recognize that there's something. To be said for principle in the world too. 1:00:02 Yes, I agree. So what Michael Hingson  1:00:08 do you hope that people gain today from listening to your show? Linda MacKenzie  1:00:13 Well, today we did a really, kind of an interesting thing. It was called Linda's world. And once a month, at the end of the month, I don't even know what I'm going to say, and so I come on and I just talk, and we talk a little bit about current events, and then we talked about anti aging, and I do herb of the week, and I give you different kinds of information on that, and we did all these things on anti aging and what vitamins and different things that can help you doing it. And so it's really we do spirit, and we do mind, body, spirit. So you know, you can go to healthy life.net, and click on podcast on demand. There's two buttons at the top. One is Listen Live. You just click on that. We don't have an app. We don't track you. We just allow you to listen for free. And we also have a podcast network with 3200 podcasts from wonderful, wonderful people, some who have passed over, but now, but they're still there, and they have still valuable information called HR and podcasts.com that's 3200 free podcasts there that people can access as well. So you can go to the podcast on demand button, click that, and you'll find my face, or look for Linda McKenzie, and click on that, and there'll be, I think, three months of shows that you can listen to, and you can see all the different kinds of topics. And I'm usually booked six months in advance, because I've been doing radio for so long, there's a lot of people that really like to come in, so I hope that people get one idea, one thought that makes their life positive from the show. And hopefully I'm giving 60 of them, Michael Hingson  1:01:52 yeah, I hear exactly what you're saying. And you know, if I can inspire one person when I speak, if I can get people to think a little bit more about something, then I've done my job right, and I think that's the only way to do it. Well, if people want to reach out to you, what's the best way for them to contact you? Linda MacKenzie  1:02:14 Okay, well, you can reach me if you want to email me. It's Linda at Linda mckenzie.net and that's m, A, C, K, E, N, Z, I, E, all one word, and Linda mckenzie.net that's my website, or they can go through healthy life.net and get me through that way too. And of course, I'm on all of the social media sites as well, right? You know? And on my website is all my appearances. I go up to San Jose and do expos and talks. And, you know, just did, just came and finished a past life regression class. I think I'm going to be doing a gemstone healing class. And, you know, whatever strikes me for the moment is what I do. So you never know. So you go on there, and you know, they want me. I've done a TV show this year, and they want me to do another one and continue. I said, Well, kind of have to pay me, because I'm doing a lot of stuff, you know, you know, you have to give me a little bit more money if you want another one. So I gave them their one, first one, and it's called Live with Linda, and that you can reach on, it's on Roku and Amazon, and that was just last September, and it's live with Linda, and it's also on soul search.tv and you can get it there as well. Michael Hingson  1:03:30 So did the Sci Fi Channel ever come back to you anymore? Linda MacKenzie  1:03:33 No, no, just checking that time, you know, I wasn't young and cute anymore. Now cute. I'm still, Michael Hingson  1:03:40 yeah, you're cute. I believe it'd be cute. You're cute. I'm cute. Yeah. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank you all for listening. I hope that you've learned something that you find there are relevant things that Linda has had to say. I'd love to hear from you. Please email me at Michael H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, I'd love to hear your thoughts about today, wherever you are experiencing the podcast. Podcast, please give us a five star rating. We value it, and we value your thoughts and your comments, and for all of you, and Linda you as well. If you know of anyone else who we ought to have as a guest on unstoppable mindset, please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to visit with and talk with. As I've said many times, I believe everyone has a story to tell and and we all want to, well, I want everyone to tell their story so that we can help show the world that everyone is more unstoppable than they think they are. But you know, if you know anyone, we'd love to hear from them. And you so again, Linda, I want to thank you. This has been fun. I really appreciate you taking all the time today. Linda MacKenzie  1:04:48 Well, thank you so much for having me and listeners out there. Be happy, be kind, and stay in love. You. Michael Hingson  1:05:00 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Fear is shaping how our kids grow up, and it may be costing them their confidence, resilience, and hope. In this conversation, I talk with Iuri Milo, a licensed clinical social worker with over 20 years of experience, about what he is seeing firsthand in schools and therapy rooms across the country. We explore the rise in student anxiety and suicide, how fear-based parenting and constant digital input affect young minds, and why building protective factors matters more than chasing risk labels. Iuri shares how School Pulse was created after a wave of student suicides, how proactive text-based support is helping students feel heard before they reach crisis, and why confidence, connection, and mindset are essential for long-term mental health. This episode offers a grounded, hopeful look at how parents, schools, and communities can help young people develop an Unstoppable mindset rooted in courage rather than fear. Highlights: 00:10 – Hear how Iuri’s work in therapy led him to focus on helping students and families. 02:22 – Learn how immigrating to the U.S. shaped Iuri’s resilience and outlook on life. 03:43 – Discover how missionary service helped Iuri build confidence and maturity. 12:13 – Hear what led to the creation of School Pulse after student suicides in the community. 17:20 – Learn why fear-based parenting may increase anxiety instead of confidence. 34:24 – Discover how proactive text-based support helps students before crisis begins. About the Guest: Iuri Melo is married to Katie, and is the grateful father of 5 incredibly cool children (Aydia, Elle, Jona, Kole, and Leila).  He is an LCSW of 20 years, and the Co-Founder of SchoolPulse.  Iuri is the published author of “Mind Over Grey Matter - Training the Mind to Heal the Brain”, and the best-seller for teens “Know Thy Selfie - Tips, Tricks, and Tools For an Awesome Life.”  He spent his 20 years as an LCSW in private practice, where he won several awards for his work, and developed a unique modality for his work with clients, “Adventure Based Therapy.” In 2017 after a several teen suicides hit his community in Southern Utah, and at the request of a local principal, Iuri Melo Co-created SchoolPulse.  Since then SchoolPulse has become the best student support service in the country, proactively delivering optimism, positivity, growth mindset strategies, and the best positive psychology skills directly to students and parents over text, email, and through schools.  This innovative evidence-based service is not only inspiring teens' lives, but also parents, and faculty.  SchoolPulse’s objective is to help students to perform better academically, socially, and personally.  “Everyday at SchoolPulse is a highlight reel of courage, kindness, and growth.  It’s amazing to see what a kind, respectful, and gentle interaction can do to heal and inspire our souls.”   With more than 300 schools, in over 25 states, SchoolPulse is a tsunami of goodness that is flooding schools throughout the country.  It sounds a bit fantastic that Iuri’s vision of “blessing the human family” is happening over text, but indeed it is.   Iuri’s sincere and enthusiastic approach can be seen in his VIDEOS which SchoolPulse delivers to students, parents, and faculty via text and email.  Iuri releases videos every week based on questions that teens have, and provides them with the answers they need to develop an extraordinary and growth minded psychology.    Ways to connect with Devin**:** Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/iuritiagomelo Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iuri-melo-1b41482/ Insta: https://www.instagram.com/iuritmelo/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@SchoolPulsePodcast/videos?view=0\&sort=dd\&shelf_id=2 Know Thy Selfie - t.ly/juUMB Mind Over Grey Matter - t.ly/SxNUU About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: chael Hingson  00:00 Ac Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:20 Well, howdy, everyone, wherever you happen to be on this fine day, I would like to introduce myself. I am Michael Hinkson, your host here on unstoppable mindset podcast, and today we have as a guest, Yuri Milo, who is a Utah resident, and he is going to talk about all sorts of stuff. He's got five children, and he is married to Katie, and he has been in the therapy and and other works for the past 20 plus years, has done a lot to really work with school children, and he's going to talk about a program that he helped begin back in 2017 I believe it was. So we'll not give anything away, because it's more fun to let him do it. So Yuri, welcome to unstoppable mindset. Iuri Milo  02:19 Michael, I am ready. We're going to be unstoppable today. I have a feeling. So I'm ready to go down any one of those roads that you're just discussing, including some other new ones that I'm sure you and I are going to carve through today. So Well, Michael Hingson  02:33 I want to start with something in your bio, you refer to the fact that you have been an LCSW for 20 years. LCSW stands for Iuri Milo  02:42 a licensed clinical social worker. So when you go to school, yeah, and you get your master's in social work, then you still have to do some some work and some licensure. When you get about 4000 hours and two years into it, hopefully, and you pass the test, you got to pass the test, then you you kind of get that licensure piece, and that really allows you to then do kind of the individual work. And I have to say, it's, it's, it's been a good experience for me. I definitely has been a blessing for myself and my family so and it's just helped me to meet and to get into the nitty gritty of people's lives, 1000s of people's lives. And I'm just so grateful for that to be a part of that. Michael Hingson  03:24 Well, let's start a little bit and tell us about kind of the early Yuri, growing up and all that was a fun place to start. You know, at the beginning, as it were, Iuri Milo  03:33 man, let's, let's go all the way back to the Genesis. So I actually was sure it's kind of an interesting story. I don't know a whole lot about it, because I was very young. But I was actually born in Mozambique, Africa, as back when it was a Portuguese colony, and then at the age of one, which, of course, I don't recall, but I moved to Portugal, and grew up there until I was about the age of 15, and then came to America, right? Like the just like an immigrant story, and I moved to Provo Utah. My sister was attending Brigham Young University at the time, and and I didn't have a whole lot going on for me by then, my parents had kind of divorced, and my mom suggested, you know, hey, why don't you just, why don't you go to America? I think there's just more opportunity there. And I was fortunate enough to be able to do that. I came and finished up high school, then went to college, then did some kind of humanitarian religious service, which we've talked about before, too, Michael and and then went on and stayed with school, got my Bachelor's, my master's and, and here we are right. 20 years later, married five kids, just just taking life as it comes Michael Hingson  04:41 well, and we talked about it a little bit, and I thought it might be worth asking so you, you did missionary work for the LDS church for two years. Tell us a little bit about that and how that affected you. Iuri Milo  04:54 Mike, that was so meaningful for me, I just have to say I. In fact, I was just reading an article the other day specifically about boys, and I think it was talking specifically about how boys kind of have a tendency, or maybe for a little while, they've been lagging behind, just a lot of metrics, specifically to young women, right, who seem to be just succeeding, kind of an academic areas and and a lot of them are more engaging more in academic or higher education than boys are. And I think a lot of that discussion was about how young men are struggling, like young men are struggling to kind of progress. And I feel like for me, when I engaged in that experience. It was such a meaningful experience. My guess is that a lot of listeners don't know, but basically, you're kind of assigned to an area, right? And you go to that area and there you get to live with other missionaries, and you engage in service. I mean, it could be religious service. It could be other types of service, but really you just end up meeting and talking to 1000s of people from all walks of life, and that was such a coming of age experience for me. I feel like I left there with just a confidence that I didn't have before that really kind of catapulted me forward into my life and into my relationship. So it's amazing that I'm, I'm going to be 50 this year, Michael, and that was when I was 20 years old, when I did that. And it's amazing that that experience still has so much sway and influence in my life. But it does. It was really a positive thing from, Michael Hingson  06:40 where did you Where were you assigned? Where did you go? I went Iuri Milo  06:44 to beautiful New Jersey, and I served in the lower half of that, all the way from kind of New Brunswick, North Brunswick, all the way down to Cape May and to Trenton and Camden and, oh my gosh, I have such fast you did. I did, yeah, it was just kind of, what you do, you kind of, you know, go through all sorts of areas which is just so fabulous, but, you know, I got to see just some absolutely gorgeous places in in Jersey, and also some places where there's some really, some really challenging poverty, yeah, I just got to see and be a Part of all of that in those communities is really an enriching, deep, rich opportunity. So really grateful for that. Michael Hingson  07:29 Yeah, and I think that's the advantage of it, when you can truly go and experience it and experience something that's different than what you normally experience or do it, it has to enhance, I would think your view of the world, and certainly how you you picture things, and I think that's so important that you had the opportunity to do that. Iuri Milo  07:55 Yeah, I agree. It was truly transformative. And I would even say, especially as I've gone into the field of psychology, I would definitely say that that two year experience was really formative, I think in my ability to make that decision into the future, it certainly created additional abilities and skills and definitely created some additional compassion and understanding in me. So it was, it was good for me. I hope it's been good for others and but like I said, there's so many cool opportunities that people can engage in. So you're asking me about that? Michael Hingson  08:32 Yeah? Well, you you went, you went and did that work. You came back and you went to college. You must have gone to college because you had to get a master's degree along the way. Iuri Milo  08:42 Yeah, I did. I jumped right back into college. Was motivated to do that. Performed better than I had before, which, which was great, too. So the that kind of service time was really good for me. I think it matured me quite a bit. And I jumped right back into it. You know, finished up my associates, got my bachelor's and then my master's. So it's, it was, it was a good thing for me to do Michael Hingson  09:08 what you get your bachelor's degree in I got my bachelor's in psychology. Iuri Milo  09:12 I got my book in psychology with a minor in sociology, and then, gratefully, was accepted into the University of Utah and finished up my my Master's of social work there. Michael Hingson  09:24 Wow, so you've been in essentially the social sciences, psychology and social work, your your whole career. Iuri Milo  09:32 Yes, I have, I have that was kind of one of the decisions I made, is once I kind of decided to go down that road. I wanted to get as much experience as I could, even working wise. I worked with like foster care agencies, I worked in group homes, I worked in hospitals as a social worker and a Care Center as a medical social worker. So I got a little bit of experience, or even in emergency rooms as well as a social worker there. So I got a little bit of a. A nice and extensive history in that, in that field, and but for the past 20 years, it's really been in in private practice that I've really kind of done my work. And then, of course, the last seven with school pulse and starting up that that service as Michael Hingson  10:16 well, what drew you to go into therapy and do what you're doing. Iuri Milo  10:22 You know, that was my final internship. When I was finishing up school, I was kind of in charge of finding an internship for myself, and I tried to pursue something that would pay me a little bit. And so I actually met up with a good with who became a good friend of mine. Was a local therapist here who said that he would take me on and let me do an internship there. And sure enough, I did. And so when I finished my internship and finished my year, you know, he basically offered me a position. Said, hey, you know, why don't you stay here and help me to run this private practice, and you can do kind of the substance abuse, and you can work with kids, which were some areas that he kind of was hoping not to do. He wanted to transition and to do other work. And I was doing that actually at the same time that I was doing medical social work at a local Care Center. And then as I built my clientele in the private world, I just stayed and definitely the the money was better, especially once, you know, I was kind of able to go on my own and build my own practice. And so that's kind of how I got into private practice. And once I started it pretty much stayed in, yeah, been pretty good. The rest is history as they say. Rest is history as they say. Michael Hingson  11:39 So you so for the last 20 years, you've been in private practice. Why did you decide to go out on your own, Iuri Milo  11:50 specifically with private practice? I mean, this is kind of a pretty usual arrangement, like, when you're, you know, being interned, or you're working for somebody else, for somebody else's practice, right? There's, we kind of have a financial arrangement right, where I was giving a share of my profits to that individual. And at some point I I tried to renegotiate that right. I wanted to kind of take less right or make more right. And at that point, my good friend, who's still a good friend to this day, said, Hey, you know, I think you're probably it's time for you to go on your own. And I did. I kind of bit the bullet. Gave that a try, and it was pretty spooky, but you hadn't thought about it. No, I hadn't really thought about that. I just kind of wanted to renegotiate, and so I ended up doing that, and and then later on, partnered up with a few other people and really had a nice, thriving practice with multiple therapists and interns and even some nurse practitioners there who were doing some psychiatry there. And all of that kind of slowed down once I began school pulse seven years ago, and right now I've really got kind of just a small little private practice that I work in the afternoons and where I kind of do my private work, and then the other half of the day I spent trying to build this program and to promote it throughout the country. Michael Hingson  13:15 Well, tell us about school plus pulse. You've read, you've you've mentioned it now a few times. So yeah, tell us kind of what school pulse is all about. Iuri Milo  13:24 You bet I you know, we started that about seven years ago. We We actually had kind of a surge of student suicides here in 2017 where we lost about seven kids in our community to suicide, and good friend of mine, who's a principal, whom I really respect, and I knew at that time, reached out to me, felt like all he really had at his disposal were just reactive tools and and so what he wanted to do was to find a way to be more proactive, to be more engaging, And to really prevent suicide, instead of just kind of passively waiting and then intervening once things have occurred. And that was really the genesis. That was the beginning. That's where we started. And we started by creating this program that would proactively engage students, versus via text, and then to provide some feedback back, and we've grown now over the past seven years, where we now have an entire team of individuals that we proactively engage students via text we send them. We've created these incredible videos and activities that promote evidence based positive psychology, growth mindset and cognitive strategies to students. Our goal is to protect students, to give them or to feed them or to nurture them with the kinds of things that will insulate and protect them from student suicide, from depression and anxiety, and ultimately to help them to perform and to succeed in school as. Well, and so we provide text based support. We have these email campaigns that go out to parents and to students, and then we provide schools with the suite of services that help to promote student success and, of course, to prevent student suicide and other behavioral issues that they deal with the school. So we've kind of become this, what in schools or districts they call a multi tier solution. And that's really what we try to promote or give to schools, is we want to come in to the rescue. We know they're overwhelmed. We know that students have a ton of needs that they can't meet. All those needs, and we want to come in and immediately provide a solution for them to address those problems and address those issues in a way that's not burdensome to them so Michael Hingson  15:49 well, why have there been so many teenage suicides? Iuri Milo  15:54 You know, interestingly enough, you know, the CDC has, you know, put out some date or some some data specifically about that, and over the past few years. I mean, in fact, even our Surgeon General, I don't think he's actually our Surgeon General right now, but Vivek Murdoch suggested that the youth mental health crisis was the defining crisis of our time. And so all of these metrics, right, all the way from student anxiety to students feeling hopeless or persistently sad, or students who are having suicidal ideation or attempting suicide and completing suicide, those numbers all seem to be trending in the wrong direction, as far as to why that is. Michael, I would imagine that there's more than one variable. There's a book that I'm sure you may be familiar with, probably your your listeners are familiar with, as well as a book called The anxious generation. I think he has some pretty compelling data and information there, and he talks about two particular factors that I think are interesting. One, of course, is the kind of the meteoric rise of technology and cell phones in particular, not just specific to social media, but phones as a whole. And then, I think he actually talks about parents, particularly. He feels that we've become overly protective of our children, and in a sense, we have, we have we're preaching fear more than we're preaching confidence like encourage, right? So that's something that I constantly tell people, is, send your kids out into the world with confidence, confidence that that they can succeed, but also that when they fail or when they go through difficult times like that, we're going to somehow find a way to synthesize those experiences and for our good, right, for our profit. And so that's those are some of the solution, or some of the things that I think have been mentioned as significant factors to that kind of youth mental health crisis that you're talking about Michael Hingson  18:03 well, so today we we see more instances where students, especially girls, but, you know, I think probably all, but especially girls are are Taken, they're kidnapped, and so on and so parents naturally want to monitor them closely or closer, but that has its own problems, as you're pointing out. How do you deal with that? Iuri Milo  18:31 You know, interestingly enough, and I don't have that data before me, I think those things are more visible, but I think what I would actually say is, in regards to that, and I think I'm kind of quoting Martin Seligman, who's kind of the father of positive psychology, is when it comes to where our communities are, we're actually safer than we've probably ever been like and I think so all of those things I think that You've just mentioned have all actually kind of tracked down. They are more visible, and I think as a result, parents have become a little bit more protective. But the actual data suggests that it's all been going down. We're actually safer than we've ever been, even though I think those things are more visible now than they've ever been from the past. Michael Hingson  19:20 So Well, the problem is, of course, in part, that the media, when something does happen, they make a big deal out of it, and that helps to create a lot of the fear that I think people experience. Iuri Milo  19:37 I think you're right. I think you're right. I think obviously the availability right? I mean the fact that this is plastered everywhere, in fact, when I'm when I'm talking to people who struggle, for example, with like an anxiety disorder, one of the things that I always tell them is you need to find a way to manage your input, like and when I say input, I just need the information that you have coming in. Because. If we're constantly putting in the information that's creating that anxiety inside of us, like that's where we're going to live from, it's from a place of fear, instead of a place of courage and confidence, which I think is where we ought to be coming from. But and so if somebody right feels like they have those tendencies right to kind of be anxious, or to worry a lot, or to worship their worries. I always tell look, you need to manage your input. You need to manage that the information that you're taking in, and make sure that you're at least combating that right with some kind of optimistic and confidence building type language, so that you're not just being driven by fear. We cannot be driven by fear like that's like one of my goals, like, fear cannot be driving the car. Fear can be a passenger, but it cannot be driving the car. And oftentimes, when I see people in therapy, that's exactly what's going on. Fear is making their decisions for them instead of their goals, their objectives, their dreams, the things that they want to pursue and the things that are of value and so yeah, we ought to, I hope we can be teach. I hope we can teach that to our kids. Often. Michael Hingson  21:15 We can teach it to our parents as well. I know that one agreed, yeah, one of the things that I decided to do when the pandemic began was to write a book about fear. And in part, that happened because in on September 11, I learned that we don't control everything. In fact, we don't control most things. And in fact, was given a message as I was running from tower two, I heard a voice in my head that said, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on running with Roselle and the rest will take care of itself. And I had the sense that if I and my guide dog worked together, which is really something that most people miss, because they just think the blind the dog does everything, and the blind guy just tags along, which is not true, but if we work together, we would be fine. Well, we were fine. And so when I started to work on live like a guide dog, when the pandemic began, and the whole idea was to use the lessons I had learned from a guide dogs on my wife's service dog, to actually help people learn about fear and learn that mostly fear is always about trying to worry about all the things over which we have absolutely no control, which is well more than 90% of all the things we worry about. And so we don't just worry about the things over which we really influence. That doesn't mean you're not aware of the other things, but you don't have to fear them, because you don't have control over them, and all you can do is worry about the things over which you have control. And so I hear what you're saying, and I understand it, and I agree with it, that so many people are just so fearful of so many things, and yeah, social media and other things don't help. But still, ultimately, people need to learn for themselves that they have to focus just on the things over which they really have an influence and use the rest of what they experience as a vehicle to help them focus, to deal with what they can Iuri Milo  23:25 Michael, that's absolutely brilliant. That's so inspiring. And I know you've told me a little bit about that. That's just fabulous. It actually reminds me, and I'm sure that your listeners are probably familiar with the Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, yeah. But I think Stephen Covey talks about that very simple, that very principle. He talks about this, the kind of our circle of control and our circle of concern, right? And if you can kind of imagine, right, there's these two circles, right? It's kind of a smaller one in the middle and then a bigger one around that one, and that circle of control is what you've just described, right? Is, is our ability, our ability, right, to influence things. And influence is such a key word because it's not control, right? It's not our ability to control things, our ability to influence things, but also to be aware, like you said, right, of that circle of concern, right, which is, you know, composed of what other people think, what they're doing, their opinions, right? In fact, have you ever heard of the book by Byron Katie called loving what is man? That's a good book. But anyway, she has a principle in there that I think you would enjoy. He said, she said, there are three kinds of business in this world. There's God's business, other people's business, in your business. And she talks about, you know, how God's business is, in a sense, like, I mean, she's not necessarily referring to God as this. Like. Heavenly Father or heavenly being. But she's saying God, as in, God's business is just what happens around you, right? They're just events or accidents or circumstances that happen around you. Of course, other people's business, right? Is, is what they do. It's what they think. It's their opinions, it's the things that matter to them. And of course, your business is what you're doing. And so her, her concept, right? Is, take care of your business. Like, stop being in God's business. Stop stop being in other people's business. Because when you're in those businesses, you're not in your own business. And so I've always kind of liked that idea of minding your business, right? Not in a narcissistic or like I'm the only person in the world, type of thing, but learning how to take care of your business, and being in that place where you can have maximum impact and influence, but not getting caught up in that fallacy of control, right, where we end up not only creating A ton of anxiety for ourselves, but it really just having incorrect expectations of ourselves in the world around us. Michael Hingson  26:08 Well, I remember when the World Trade Center events happened, and for so long afterward, I realized along the way that we didn't have control over and we didn't have any influence over the events of September 11 actually happening, and I don't think I have yet to see a single piece of evidence that tells me that even if the entire United States government works together, which they should do more of anyway, but if they had worked together, that they would have been able to predict and stop September 11 from happening. But what we, each and every one of us, getting back to God's business, other people's business, and your business, getting back to that concept. What was true, and is true is while we didn't have any influence and couldn't have influence over the events actually occurring, we have total influence and control over how we deal with it. And I've seen so many instances where people go after the Muslim church. They go after one thing or another. They say these people are bad. And the reality is, this wasn't a religious thing. This was just a group of thugs who decided they wanted to have their own way, and unfortunately, they functioned very well as a team and kept it quiet, which is why we couldn't figure it out, but the bottom line is, we have control over how we deal with it. And I met one gentleman who had been a fireman up to and including September 11, and then he decided that he wanted to become a police officer because his brother had been an officer and killed on September 11, and he wanted to go after all those terrorists and kill them, which is not a very positive reason for becoming a police officer. And that kind of hatred doesn't help. And I think that it's very important that we really need to look at why we do the things that we do and that we do, and for the right reasons. There's a group of people called Business Continuity people. They're in the business continuity industry. They describe themselves, according to one person who I met from the group called the what if people, they're always analyzing, well, what if this happens? What do we need to do to react to keep the business going? What if this happens? But what I noticed in talking with them, and I was at one of their conferences and delivered a speech in London last year about it. One of the things I noticed is they don't do it out of fear. They do it because they know that they can keep businesses going. But they're not doing it out of fear. They're focusing on what if for a different reason. And that's the thing that I think that we need to do more of collectively as humans, is do it for the right reason, and let fear help focus you, but don't let it overwhelm or blind you. Iuri Milo  29:14 Yeah, that's beautifully said. I've heard that that the message of fear is prepare, right? So I think that that, I like that idea right, that you can take, you know, what could potentially be right, kind of, what if ing ourselves to death, right, where we're kind of just or catastrophizing all the potential bad, but what you're describing right is a very intentional look at the what ifs in order to prepare or to find some solutions to some of the problems that could arise. And so I think that that's the key, right is sometimes I'll describe our emotions or even fear as kind of like the lights on a dashboard. Ride on a car, right when you kind of get your, you know, your oil light is blinking, or your engine light comes on, or your tire, you know, is low, and that means something, right? There is a message to that. And so I think that's exactly what we can do, is we can see if we can identify, like, what's the message here? Or perhaps an even more important question is like, what can I do right to address this in a positive way? What do I need to do to address the problem? And so sometimes, when we ask a better question, we'll get better results, we'll get better answers. And so whereas when we ask all the wrong questions, we're going to get crappy we're going to get crappy responses. Michael Hingson  30:41 So this is hard to resist, so I won't. Did you ever watch the TV show The Big Bang Theory? Iuri Milo  30:48 Oh my gosh. I think I've seen maybe one or two episodes, but I never got into it. Should I get into it? Michael Hingson  30:53 Michael, oh, it's fun. It's funny. I'll have to do it. So Penny, one of the women on the show had a car and her check engine light was on for 15 or 13 years while the show was on. So I'm not sure that the check engine light means anything, because she never had a problem with it. Just saying, I love that. I love that. No, I I hear what you're saying, and I think it's it's so important that people need to step back, we need to become more introspective, and we need to start to do more work to understand why we're afraid, because then we can work on fixing that problem. But no one people can advise us, but we have to do the work ourselves Iuri Milo  31:38 we do. And even going back to one of the statements that you made just a few minutes ago, Michael, in in regards to, like, our ability to respond right, or, or to, kind of, in a sense, I feel like we're these meaning making machines, right? And I'm reminded of, you know, Victor Frankel's book, Man's Search for Meaning, which you know as a listener. If you haven't had a chance to listen or to read that book, I would just highly recommend it. That's like, it's like a top five for me. It's really solid. But there's kind of this, this wonderful quote in there where he says, between stimulus and response, right? Between what happens to us and what we do with it, right? Or in our response is this space, and in that space is our ability to choose our response. And in our ability to choose our response lies our freedom and our happiness, right? So that's really what that space is, right. Is not just to choose what that response will be, but I would even say that in that space is our ability to choose what that event actually means, right? And if you and if you think about like I, I tend to kind of subscribe to this concept of, you know, cognitive or cognitive behavioral therapy, right? Which is the idea that the way that we perceive the events in our lives matters more than the events themselves, and so our ability to have these these belief systems or ideas are really key. Are great long term solutions that really impact your mood and well being. In fact, sometimes I'll, I don't know if you've ever seen the movie Inception, Michael, but it's one of my absolute favorite movies. I love that movie. And at the beginning of that movie, you kind of have this idea of of extraction, which is the individuals in this movie would go into people's dreams, go into their mind, through their dreams, and their purpose was to steal secrets right from people's minds. But then the movie kind of changes gears a little bit from from the extraction of an idea or an extraction of a secret to inception, right or planting an idea inside someone's mind, an idea so powerful that it would fundamentally change that person. And so I I always like to kind of optimistically or maybe even idealistically think that that their ideas that we can plant inside of our minds that are so powerful that they can positively transform us, and I absolutely believe that. And so I find that as a therapist, that's definitely one of those things that I'm constantly looking to do is sometimes extract right some of those ideas that are running unconsciously inside of us that are just they're no longer of service. They're not effective, they don't help us. And that, of course, is planting the kinds of ideas and belief systems that will help someone to live an extraordinary life because they have an extraordinary mindset. Michael Hingson  34:56 And in reality, I believe we have all the answers. Is that is we know what to do. We know how to make that happen, or we should, but we we ignore it. We don't listen to our inner voices. We don't listen to and observe so many things that go on around us that we Michael Hingson  35:15 again, just allow fear to take over and overwhelm us, which really doesn't help and doesn't serve us in very good stead at all. Tell me a little bit more about school pulps. How does it? How does it work? Why is it? Why is it so successful? What do you do? Iuri Milo  35:35 Well, I don't know if it's, I mean, it's, it's successful because we're able to intervene directly with students. So let me I'll kind of explain it with maybe a little bit of a backstory. That'd be great. Yeah. So So I think schools and I, I've been indirectly involved with schools now for seven years. I don't presume to be an educator myself, but I have had the privilege of just meeting the most extraordinary superintendents, principals, administrators, school counselors, school social workers and school psychologists. So I feel like I've learned a lot over the past seven years. And I think one of the things that schools really want to do right is and schools kind of have to do this. They have to provide services to all students, right? And one of the things that schools right now have to do is they have to provide some sort of whether it's curriculum or initiatives that are meant to prevent student suicide and to improve student wellness, right? And so that's really where school pulse comes in. What we want to be for schools, is that systemic solution, right? There's that great quote which I'm sure you realized, or that you'll remember, Michael, which is, you know, we, we don't rise to the level of our goals or objectives. We tend to fall to the level of our systems, right? Because sometimes systems just aren't in place to make something be sustainable. And what we really want to do is we want to come into schools and provide them with a sustainable solution to all students. And we do that in a variety of ways. So for example, like one of the first things that I tell schools to do the moment that we walk into a school is, let's begin our once a week email campaign to every single parent and every single student our video, we deliver one video a week that those are our Student Success videos that are just packed to the brim with evidence based positive psychology growth mindset strategies and other cognitive strategies that have been proven not only to protect children from suicide and other disorders and other problems, but also to improve student success, student persistence, student wellness, student happiness. And that's really a core principle of positive psychology is the realization that success revolves around happiness and not the other way around, right? It's kind of this Copernican revolution, right? Where we sometimes think that happiness revolves around success, but it's actually the other way around. Happiness is a huge advantage for people, and so our goal is we want to deliver in a in a non spammy way, in a very informational way, the best content available to parents and to students to help them to be successful, to help them to engage in their school culture, To help them to better and improve their relationships, and to help them to succeed academically, of course, which is what schools are there to do anyways. And so we do that through our email campaigns that schools can begin immediately. We provide them with the most comprehensive mental health resource for teens in the country, Truly, truly, and I know that that can sound a little cliche, like really Yuri, is it really the most comprehensive and the best? And the answer to that, Michael is absolutely yes. We have created that. We give that to every school. We also provide schools with our live text based support. Just imagine having a student come into your office, right? Maybe they're struggling, they're failing in school, or they're having issues with their with their grades, or maybe they're having some suicidal ideation or struggling with substance abuse, or maybe their parents are divorcing, and as a counselor or an administrator, you say, Man, I want to provide this kid with some support, right? And you can opt that student in to our amazing text based support, and you've literally at the click of a button, you've just given that student this tool that will be with them all year long, through the holidays, through the summer months, proactively engaging them twice a week over text and then anytime that. Student engages. They're going to engage with a live team of people, not artificial intelligence, but a live team of people that will be available to them after school through the holidays. It's incredible. So we want to provide real tools to schools that don't create more work for them that actually are relieving work from them. And so we're we've really worked hard. We've really tried to listen really. We've tried to listen to them like, what are your problems? What issues are you having? Where Are you overwhelmed? And then let us come in and come to the rescue and provide you with real solutions that relieve your struggle and your overwhelm. Michael Hingson  40:45 What are some examples, if you can relatively easily do it? What are some examples, for example, of texts? Oh my gosh. What are some examples of texts that you might send to a student that that help them with that? Iuri Milo  41:00 I love it. So every Tuesday, we deliver our brand new Student Success activities. So for example, the one that just went out today, we always try to make our Student Success activities match the time of the year. Obviously it's the beginning of the school year for most people. So the text that just were the activity, the video that just went out this last Tuesday was how to become a better student, or, How do I get to be a better student, right? And so we just released this text, right? It has our little video image, and it just has a little question about, like, Hey, have you ever thought about or how, how do you become a better student? Or, What things are you doing right now to help you to be a better student? And it just has the link. The kids can click on the link, it immediately opens the video, and the kids can watch it. And then on Fridays, we do a variety of things. We send out other inspirational and engaged, engaging content. For example, we might share that quote. We might share the quote that just says, Hey, do you know that positive relationships, multiply your joys and divide your sorrows. Or, you know, we might share that quote by Victor Frankel, or we might show where we might share another quote, let's say by Winston Churchill, that maybe says like, you know, six your your failures aren't fatal, your successes and final, right? And this idea that we can just keep trying and trying and trying and trying and trying. We try to always release texts that are engaging, that are trying to engage the students, because when they engage back, they're going to get a live person that's enthusiastic, that's grateful, and that has a ton of resources available to them to give to those kids, but man, we have seen some incredible success. Michael, I mean, just all the things that you can imagine, all the way from students who are themselves struggling, maybe with suicidal ideation, or whose parents have gone through a divorce, or who have lost a loved one, or maybe who are suicidal themselves, or who are self harmony, or maybe who are having some homicidal ideation, and they share that with us, and we're able to intervene. And we just have some truly like Nobel Prize winning type experiences with students who tell us where they're maybe struggling, or they're dealing with physical or sexual or emotional abuse, and we're able to intervene and help those students is just absolutely phenomenal. Michael Hingson  43:24 Do you oftentimes use stories to to help people relate? Iuri Milo  43:30 Sometimes, I mean, so that's what, that's one of the beauties, right of having real people answer real texts is they can relate, right? They can talk to them about their own struggles, their own challenges in high school and middle school, right? And they can connect individually with their students. But ultimately, of course, our goal is we want to make sure that we're interested in them. We're asking them questions. We want to make sure that we're seeking to understand, first, right, and then certainly providing them or or or matching them, or meeting them where they are, which really just means with our own experience, right, with our own stories. Michael Hingson  44:07 Someone you're engaging students, you you may very well ask them questions, because you've got live people who want to really get to know them. Iuri Milo  44:16 That's exactly right. We have kind of an acronym, and I won't spend the time to kind of tell you what each letter of it means, but there's kind of six or seven key areas that kind of govern our conversation or the way that we speak to people, and the first six are really all relationship building strategies where we greet students with enthusiasm, we thank them for being there. We match them, we ask them questions we seek to understand, and then only at the end, right do we offer suggestions or provide some advice with permission. But really, the key is helping students to feel a sense that they're being heard, that it's. Safe, that they're being understood, and only then do we then provide, you know, with some ideas or some suggestions that they could try on their own. So we're and, of course, and I will just say this, because this is important. We I want to make sure that people understand that we're not attempting to be a solution unto ourselves. Really. What I mean by that is our goal is always to connect those students to their networks where they are like we realize that the most important factor for that students, well being, their happiness in the short and long term are positive relationships where they are. So our goal is always to connect students to their parents, to their guardians, to the professionals at the school and to other local resources. That's what we want to build for them, because we know that that's the ultimate protective factor. Michael Hingson  45:54 Yeah, I would suspect that sometimes some of your team gets into some pretty heavy discussions Iuri Milo  46:06 they can. I mean, we have, we have students who come to us right with I want to tell you that about 80 to 85% of our engagement in interactions with students are of a positive nature, which is actually important too, because by talking about the positive, we enhance it, right? But obviously we have, you know, 15 to 20% of our conversations are, at times, students who are struggling, right? Yeah, all the way from just very basic things, I had a fight with my friend, or I just failed my test, or I'm stressed out, or I'm tired, or I'm not sleeping well, like you said, all the way to, you know, them reporting physical or sexual abuse, and us just caring for them and then connecting them with the help so they can get right help, right there where they are. Michael Hingson  46:53 Yeah, and that's, that's really the issue. And ultimately, all you can do is, well, it's not as simple as saying be supportive, but all you can do, really is, is to be there to listen to guide, but students ultimately have to take some steps on their own at your direction. Iuri Milo  47:15 Absolutely, absolutely. And like I said, that's kind of our triage, right? Is, is always, I mean, one of the first questions that our team will ask a student who comes to us is always, is your parent? Are your parents aware? Have you spoken to them? Do they know about this? Would you be willing to speak to them? Right? We want to forge that. We want to strengthen that. And then if that's not a possibility, or if they choose to not do that, then our next our next movement, our next scale, right is, is we look to connect those wonderful students to the professionals at the school, which usually means a school counselor, school social worker, one of their administrators, who then kind of help to make that transition, honestly, Back to the parents, but, but that's really what we're what we want to do. Like I said, we're we're not arrogant. We're born on humility. We're not, we're not the ultimate solution or the final solution. We're just, we're part of that, and we're really honored, yeah, we're really honored to be part of that. Michael Hingson  48:18 So I assume that as part of what you're doing, you're also working to train the schools, train the staff to be more connected, to deal with more of these solutions, and to understand, hopefully more of what's going on with their students as well Iuri Milo  48:38 what we are, I think, and I Think this is kind of a key part, and I'll just share it as my own personal opinion. I really feel like I'm thinking about like universities, like Yale, Harvard, Stanford, I mean, even like BYU, or, I'm sure, other colleges or universities throughout the country, and some of the most, if not the most popular classes on campus have to do with wellness, student wellness, the science of happiness. My goal, honestly, Michael, is, why are we not doing this in high school, like, why are we not teaching these valuable concepts that not only protect our kids, right? Which is really where I want to aim. Our focus is on building the protective factors for our children, instead of just being enamored and hypnotized by the risk factors or the diagnostic side of things, and so that's really what I'm hoping to bring to schools, is this incredible dose and injection of positive and growth mindset strategies that help students to succeed, academically, socially, in their relationship. Groups in their life, physically, emotionally, spiritually, etc, like that is the goal. That's where I feel like my opinion is that's where school should be. Doing more, more of that proactive and preventative measure, instead of this overly focus on suicide, which, of course, is important, and I want to prevent suicide. My opinion is that I think we'd be doing a better job of preventing suicide by leaning on and fortifying the protective factors of children instead of just focusing on the risk factors, right? Michael Hingson  50:36 And I hear what you're saying, and I understand it, and I agree. I think it's so much more important, and there's so many reasons to do that, and hopefully more people will catch on to it, including parents. Because parents have to learn to interact with their students in a different way than a lot of parents tend to do today. Iuri Milo  50:59 So that's one of the things that we do right is part of our is part of our our email campaigns are meant to go out to parents, and we do that for two reasons. Number one, because we I'm a parent myself. I've got five kids like I think it's fabulous like that. We want to send we want to be completely transparent and share the very best that we have with those parents so that they have some fabulous resources to use with their own children. That's one. And then, of course, the other kind of mentioned the right is the idea that we just, we're trying to develop them, and at the same time, also be respectful of parental rights and be transparent, right? Michael Hingson  51:44 You have written two books, mind over gray matter and Know thy selfie. Tell me about those. Iuri Milo  51:49 Oh man, those were like joyous times in my life. I'll tell you just a brief little story. I won't take too long, I promise, but that's okay. Mind Mind Over gray matter was, was the first book that I wrote, and it's really kind of geared more towards adults, but I I want to say that I was maybe 13, maybe 14 years into my practice or so, and had always kind of thought of this idea of writing a book had kind of been percolating In my mind. My mom was a writer herself, just a beautiful poet, truly like in my opinion, just immensely, immensely talented. And I think in some way, consciously or unconscious, she kind of planted this little idea inside my mind to write. And I was always kind of intrigued by that, and so I had always kind of talked about this idea of writing and wanting to write. And my wife, honestly, God bless her, she, she challenged me. He said, you just stop talking about it and do something about it. And I'm so grateful for her. And I think that that statement probably hurt and stung a little bit, but honestly it became a little bit of the driving force. And I started, I mean, I would wake up, I kind of had a little bit of a routine. I would wake up about five. I would write and edit and edit and write and write and edit. And I did that for months and months and months and and began to kind of build this project and put it together. And that's really what mind over gray matter was. It's kind of built on this idea that we can use our mind, our best thinking, our best self, basically to change the brain that sometimes acts from a really irrational or primitive place. And so I kind of try to make this distinction right between our brain, which is kind of the biological survivalistic organ that's kind of housed inside of our inside of our cranium, right, and our mind right, which is our best thinking and that we can kind of educate and train our brain to do those things that are of greatest worth and value. And so it's just filled with lots of ideas and fun chapters that are meant to just elevate one's perspective and one's mindset to really create an extraordinary mindset, or extraordinary psychology so and then, know, thy selfie was kind of that version, but written for teens like so, kind of writing things at that kind of more teenage language, but just really, just some platitudes and some ideas on how to make their life better and to just live deep and suck the marrow, right, which is kind of one of my very favorite quotes by Henry David Thoreau, right? That's what I want kids to do, instead of just getting caught up in apathy and just ambivalence and not doing anything. Michael Hingson  54:55 So if you could go back and tell your younger self something about mindset. What would it be? Iuri Milo  55:03 I think, as a young boy, was really fortunate. I feel like I just grew up in an extraordinary place with, I think, parents that really cared and loved me. I'm so grateful for my older brother and sister who really led the way for me. But I dare say that that that some of my life, especially when I moved here to the United States, when I came to America, I think fear really held me back. Fear, fear of fear of results or outcomes or being rejected, and I just didn't it just, I just didn't know enough, you know, I didn't really think of the idea that rejection really just means next or a redirection, right? And so I think as a result, I really held back. I didn't try a lot of things, and so I have some regrets, which I think is absolutely fine. I think I think it's fine to have some regrets as I look back into my life, but I think that's one thing that I would say is, is I wish I would have lived a little bit more courageously. I wish I would have been a little more proactive and engaged instead of passively, kind of waiting for things to come to me. So I would have said, Yuri, like, just send it my friend. Like, get out there, give it a go, try things out. Like, go out there and fail spectacularly and figure that out, learn from that and move on to the next thing and and really build some skills that will become these renewable sources of joy and happiness for you, and just go for it, and so that that's what I would have said. I would have said to just stop shrinking, instead start rising up. Michael Hingson  56:57 What's one common myth or mistake about therapy and psychology that you wish you could just totally eliminate, Iuri Milo  57:04 I think thanks for asking that. That's a fun question. Probably one of the questions that I most asked as a clinician is, did you ever get kind of bogged down by meeting with people and just hearing all the negative things about their life. And so I think that the assumption there, right, Michael, is that therapy is this kind of negative place, right, where we're just kind of commiserating, or I'm just listening to people's problems, and somehow it's burdening me and my soul, and I think my answer to people is Man Therapy is such an incredibly positive environment, at least with me. I mean, I guess I can't speak for anybody else, but, but for me, it's never just about me absorbing right like this receiver like people's misery. It's taking some of those struggles at times, right, and learning how to synthesize those so that we can turn them towards benefits, or how to move forward, how to look for solutions like so for me, therapy is this incredibly optimistic place where we're constantly looking to build and grow and develop and create and find a way to take the challenges of our life and consecrate them for our good. Like to have them build it, build us for our good. And so that's, I think, one of the misconceptions that I would love for people to realize is that, like you're going to come to therapy and you're going to leave, I hope, relieved and feeling with a sense of hope from day one, like that's how you should be feeling when you leave that therapist's office. Michael Hingson  58:55 Ultimately, you, as a therapist, can only you can give people a lot of information, but you have to do it in such a way that you show them that they have to adopt the answers for themselves. You can't force people to do that. And it's so exciting. I'm sure when you see that happen, Iuri Milo  59:15 it is but I but I think that that's actually really important too. Michael, right is, is the recognition, right, that that there is a clear and distinct line right between myself and other people, right? And influence. We talked about that a little bit earlier, right? Because I have to realize that, like I have to realize that I'm here to invite, to present, to encourage, to assist, but then that people certainly have that ability, and that's their business, right? Like that's their business. Their business is to choose whether to do or to follow or to be encouraged or not. And I think that that's for me, that's been helpful in my profession to keep myself, I suppose, happy and joyous with where I am, despite some of the choices of my clients, like. Is I truly, I truly respect them, and I respect their ability to choose for themselves whether to do whatever I suggest or whatever things we come up together in therapy, or whether or not to and I respect that, and I respect that that may be a long process for them, and that there's a lot of story to be written, and that things don't have to change according to my timeline. Michael Hingson  1:00:24 Well, the other part about that is that the very fact that you project that kind of an attitude and help people see that it's up to them, and that you have, if you will, the line that you won't cross, maybe that's not the way to put it, but you you have a part that you play, but they're really the main players. When you're able to project that and people understand it, that's got to be a cool thing. Iuri Milo  1:00:53 It is. And my hope is that that'll do two things. Number one, I, I do it's really important for me, I think, as a therapist, right, I I don't want to speak to just be heard, right, or just for the sake of speaking my my goal, right, as a therapist, right, is, is, I want to craft the message in a way and with the kind of tone and attitude, right, that it will make it more likely that it will be received, right? And so when I approach things with gentleness, with kindness, with compassion, right, even when I approach it with that kind of mentality of like, hey, here are a couple of ideas, and you can take them or leave them like, and I love you either way, right? I actually find that that opens people and makes them more receptive to listening when it's not given from a place of constraint, right, right? And so for me, that that's really what it's about, right? Is I try to convey that attitude in part because I'm I'm hoping that my words or my suggestions can be considered not because I I'm somehow communicating all the truth or capital T truth all the time, but I work really hard to try to provide, you know, obviously things that are could be meaningful and valuable for them. Michael Hingson  1:02:16 As I said, You're conveying through attitude and through the way you behave, something that people can react to, and hopefully they they see it and they do it. What are a few habits that you have adopted to help maintain your mindset every day? Iuri Milo  1:02:38 I've got a couple of things. I and I'll speak spiritually here for a second, that the practice of prayer and it you know, and for you that might be contemplation for you, that might be meditation for you, that might be journaling, whatever that is. But without a doubt, I just have to say that I find that a lot of my days sometimes are spent with this kind of active conversation that's happening through prayer for me and for me, that has just been it's been something that actually my mind will turn to almost automatically. I mean, it's been a long time. I'm almost 50 years old. I've been doing that for a long time, yeah, but it's become a really significant part of my life. The other thing that I would say, and I kind of talked about, kind of having, you know, some activities, right, that kind of become these renewable sources of joy or happiness for me, and I really like those you know, whether it be like, you know, playing the guitar or climbing or running with friends or doing these activities, especially if I can include them or include my family in it, that's like, top notch, right? Because that's like, the top or the peak of my life is to do those things with my family. But I would say doing those things and continuing to find ways to keep my mind, my body, my spirit, growing. I just feel like I think we're made to evolve like I think everything in our bodies and mind screams evolution and progression. And when I believe that I'm growing and evolving, I'm happier, for sure. And so for me, that's something really important as well as I feel like I have to be nurturing growth, and when I am, I find that there's energy inside of me, so that's an important key Michael Hingson  1:04:43 for me. I'm with you. I know for me, prayer is a very important part of what what I do. And for me, it isn't so much the praying me saying, God, this is what I need, because God knows what I need. It's more me listening to get the answers Iuri Milo  1:05:05 so important. I agree with you. I think that that's one area, Michael that just speaking to you. I'll use you as my coach. I feel like I could do better there. I could do better there. I think allowing God or a little bit more time for that inspiration or potentially even revelation to come through. That's an area where I feel like I'm sometimes so rushed right that I maybe do a lot of talking there, kind of like what I've been doing in this episode, Michael and maybe I need to allow more of those times to just to listen. I think that would be a powerful practice that I think I need to maybe improve a little bit as well. Michael Hingson  1:05:56 Well, if people want to reach out to you, to learn about school, pulse, or just interact with you in some way. And I don't know whether you're taking on too many additional clients, but how do they do that? Iuri Milo  1:06:07 Yeah, I mean, so you can for school pulse, specifically, you can go to our website, at school pulse.org, and you can, you can reach out to me. You can, you can see kind of what we're about. And I'll also provide some stuff for Michael if you want to add that, please like a link to those. If you want to reach out to me individually, you can just go to you can just email me directly at Yuri. And my name is kind of strange. It's I, you are i at school, pulse.org, and you can just email me directly and and let's chat. I'm happy to engage with you in wherever state you're in, so I'd love to help Michael Hingson  1:06:47 cool well, I want to thank you for all of this today, and I want to thank all of you for being here with us. I hope you've enjoyed it. I hope you find it helpful, and that you'll reach out to Yuri, because I am sure that school pulse will help your kids, and I'm sure that he's got lots of wisdom that he would be very happy to share. So please reach out to him. I'd love to hear what you think about today's episode. Please email me at Michael H, [email protected] Michael Hingson  1:07:15 that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and please, wherever you are, give us a five star rating for the podcast episode today. It's valuable. We love your feedback. We love your thoughts, and I want to hear what you have to say. And for all of you, including you, Erie, if you know anyone who ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, love to have an introduction. So please do that. But for now, I just want to thank you, Yuri, this has been great. I want to thank you for being here and for all the wisdom that you've imparted to us today. Iuri Milo  1:07:50 You're very kind. I really appreciate you, Michael and your your searching questions. You're very good. I really appreciate that Michael Hingson  1:08:01 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Protecting your ideas can be the difference between building momentum and watching someone else run with your work. In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with patent attorney and entrepreneur Devin Miller to explore what founders and business owners really need to know about patents, trademarks, and intellectual property. Devin shares how his background in engineering, startups, and law shaped his approach to innovation, and he breaks down the real differences between provisional and non-provisional patents in clear, practical terms. We talk about common mistakes entrepreneurs make, how legal protection supports growth instead of slowing it down, and why understanding intellectual property early can help you compete with confidence. I believe this conversation will give you clarity, direction, and a stronger foundation for protecting what you work so hard to create. Highlights: 00:01:18 – Hear how growing up in a small town shaped Devin’s approach to problem-solving and business.00:12:53 – Learn why Devin combined engineering, business, and law instead of choosing a single career path.00:19:32 – Discover how a student competition turned into a real wearable technology startup.00:30:57 – Understand the clear difference between patents, trademarks, and copyrights.00:33:05 – Learn when a provisional patent makes sense and when it does not.00:53:52 – Discover what practical options exist when competitors copy or knock off your product. About the Guest: Devin Miller is the founder of Miller IP, a firm launched in 2018 that helps startups and small businesses protect their inventions and brands without breaking the bank. He’s overseen over a thousand patent and trademark filings with a 95 percent success rate on patents and an 85 percent success rate on trademarks, making sure garage inventors and side hustlers get the same high-quality service as big tech. Before starting his firm, Devin spent years at large law firms working with clients like Intel and Amazon, but he found his true passion in helping scrappy entrepreneurs turn ideas into assets. He blends legal know how with an entrepreneur’s mindset, offering flat fee packages, DIY legal tools, and hosting webinars and a podcast series to demystify IP. A lifelong runner who knocks out 10+ miles a day and 30-40 miles daily biking (except Sunday), Devin listens to audiobooks and podcasts while training for marathons. When he’s not drafting office action responses or co-hosting Inventive Journey, you might catch him brainstorming the next Inventive Youth program or sipping coffee while sketching partnership agreements. Ways to connect with Devin**:** If you’d like to talk strategy or swap running playlist recs, feel free to schedule a chat at http://strategymeeting.com LinkedIn profile  https://www.linkedin.com/in/lawwithmiller/ Firm website [https://www.lawwithmiller.com](https://www.lawwithmiller.com "https://www.lawwithmiller.com") About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Well, hello to all of you, wherever you happen to be today, you are listening to or watching or both unstoppable mindset and I am your host. Mike hingson, our guest today is Devin Miller, who founded the company, Miller IP, and he'll tell us all about that and what that means and so on as we go through this. But I will tell you that he is a lawyer. He deals with patents and other things and a lot of stuff relating to startups. I think that's going to be a lot of fun to talk about. So without any further ado, as it were, Devin, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Thanks for having me on. Excited to be here. Well, we're glad. We're glad you're here. Can you hear me? Okay, now I hear you. Devin Miller  02:06 Well, we're sorry for the delay, but I said I'm excited to be here and looking forward to chatting. Michael Hingson  02:11 Well, perfect. Well, let's start. I love to always do this. Let's start kind of at the beginning. Why don't you tell us about the early Devon, growing up and all that? Devin Miller  02:21 You know, I I'm happy to do. I don't know there's anything that probably stands out. I was probably fairly typical. So I was raised in a religious family, so we're attended church regularly every week. And I had a couple sisters, an older and a younger one, and was went through, went through schooling and or studied, probably the typical course. So I don't know there's anything stands out. I was in a small town, so grew up as, probably not as small as I'd like it to be anymore, but a small farming town, and it was, it was kind of always enjoyed the small town fill, and actually am back to being in that same hometown where I live now with my family. But yeah, so I did that, and I did probably the at the time, the typical thing with the it's growing up with kids and sports and doing things, and went through high school and and after that, jumped or went off to college. But I don't know if there's anything in particular that stands out in my mind, other than probably, at least in my mind, a pretty typical childhood and upbringing, but enjoyed it nonetheless. But happy to provide any details or I can jump into a bit about college. Michael Hingson  03:38 Well, where did you go to college? Devin Miller  03:40 Yeah, so I went to Brigham, young university, just or BYU, just out here in Utah. So I went off to so, or I graduated high school and I went off to a year of college. So I went off to BYU, kind of intending to go into electrical engineering, which is what I or one of the degrees I ended up studying with, and then I did that for a year, and after which I went off and did a served a religious mission for my church, so Church of Jesus Christ, or Latter Day Saints, otherwise nicknamed Mormon. So I went off and went to Taiwan for about two years. So didn't have any idea, even at that point where Taiwan was and certainly didn't know the language, but when studied that, or they have a training center where you get an opportunity to study it for about three months. So I studied it and then went off to Taiwan and served that religious mission for my church for a couple years before coming back to the high school, or good, not the high school to college to continue my studies. Michael Hingson  04:43 I several, several comments. One, I know what you mean about small hometowns. We moved from Chicago, where I was born, to California when I was five, we moved to a town called Palmdale, and it was a very small rural town about 60. Five miles north of Los Angeles. I don't know what the population was when we first moved there, but it couldn't have been more than 1000 or 1500 people spread out over a little bit of a distance. For me, it was great, because without there being a lot of traffic, I was able to do things I might not have done nearly as well in Chicago things like riding a bike, learning to ride a bike and walking to school and and not ever fearing about walking to school for any reasons, including being blind. But oftentimes I once I learned how to do it, I rode my own bike to school and locked it in the bike rack and then rode home and all that. But then Palmdale started to grow and I'm not quite sure what the population is today, but I live in a town about 55 miles east of Palmdale called Victorville, and as I described Victorville growing up, it was not even a speck on a radar scope compared to the small town of Palmdale, but we we moved down to Southern California from the Bay Area my wife and I to be closer to family and so on. In 2014 we wanted to build a house for Karen, because she was in a wheelchair her whole life. So we wanted to get a a house that would be accessible. And my gosh, the only place we could find any property was Victorville. And at that time, in 2014 it had 115,000 people in it. It has grown. Now it Devin Miller  06:31 has grown. And it tends to be that, you know, it feels like everybody's always kind of chasing the small town then, or people find out about it. Everybody moves in. It's no longer a small town, and then you're off to chasing the the next small town, wherever that might be. So it's kind of a perpetual cycle of of chasing that small or at least for the people to like it. Not everybody loves it, but I'm certainly a proponent of chasing that small town feel from from place to places, as you're trying to or trying to find or recreate what you probably grew up with. So it is a it is a cycle that everybody I think is chasing, Michael Hingson  07:09 yeah, well, for me now, my wife passed away in 2022 we were married 40 years. And so the thing about it is that there are probably advantages for me living alone, being in a place that has a few more people and a few more of the kind of amenities that at least somewhat larger towns have, like a Costco and some some restaurants. We actually live in a homeowner's development, a homeowner's association called Spring Valley Lake, and I live within walking distance of the Country Club, which has a nice restaurant, so I'm able to go to the to the restaurant whenever I choose, and that's kind of nice. So there's value for me and being here and people say, Well, do you ever want to move from Victorville now that your wife died? And why do I want to do that? Especially since I have a 3.95% mortgage? You know, I'm not going to do that, and I'm in a new house that. Well, relatively new. It was built in 2016 so it's pretty much built to code. And insulation is great. Solar is great on the house. Air conditioning works, so I can't complain. Devin Miller  08:20 No, sounds like a good setup, and it's kind of one where, why, if you enjoy where you're at, why would you move to go somewhere else that you wouldn't necessarily enjoy? So it just sounds like it works out. Michael Hingson  08:29 Well, it does, and I can always, as I need to being a keynote speaker and traveling, there's a shuttle that'll take me down to the nearest airports. So that works out. Well, that's awesome. So you went to, I'm a little bit familiar with the the whole LDS missionary program, Mission program, we we were not part of the church, but we lived, when my wife and I got married, we lived in Mission Viejo and we had neighbors right next door to us, who were members of the church, and they came over one day and they said, we have an issue. And I said, Okay. And my wife said, Okay, what's the issue? Well, we have a couple of missionaries coming in, and the only homes that are available to these two boys are homes that already have young female girls in them. So they really can't be in those homes. Would you be willing to rent your one of your rooms to missionaries? And so we said, and well, Karen said, because she was a member of the Methodist church, we said, as long as they don't try to mormonize us, we won't try to methodize them. And we would love to do it. And it worked out really well. We had a couple of missionaries for a while, and then they switched out. And eventually we had a gentleman from Tonga for a while, and we actually had a couple girls for for a while. So it worked out really well, and we we got to know them all, and it was a great relationship. And they did their work, and at Christmas time, they certainly were invited to our Christmas parties. We. Had every year a party. What we actually had was what we call a Christmas tree upping. We got the tree, we brought it into the house, and we invited all of our friends and neighbors to come and decorate the tree in the house. Because, needless to say, we weren't going to do that very well. Karen especially wasn't going to be able to stand up and decorate the tree. So we got them to do all the tree decorations and all that, and we fed them. So it worked out. Devin Miller  10:26 Well, it's awesome. Sounds like, great. And you hit on. I said, that's probably my, my favorite part of the Christmas is a Christmas tree. So growing up, we always had a real live tree, but it was always, you know, it was downstairs in the basement, and had lower ceilings. And so I was always kind of the opinion, hey, when I grow up, I want to have the a huge, you know, kind of like in the newbies at 20 plus or 20 or 20 plus foot tree, yeah. And lo and behold, we, or at least the couple houses that we build have always had, at least in the living space, have had the pretty high ceilings. And so that's always what we do. We'll go out and we'll cut down a live tree. So we'll go out to kind of in nature, to the forest, where they let you cut them down, and we'll, we'll cut down, usually it's around a 20 plus foot tree, and then have it strung up in the house. And I always tell my wife, I said, I'd rather that one could be my Christmas present. I'd be just as happy, because as long as I have my tree, it's a good Christmas for me. Michael Hingson  11:23 Yeah, oh, I hear you. Well, one of the boys who lived next door to us went off on a mission to, I think it was Argentina, and was gone for, I guess, two years. What was really funny is when he came back, it took him a while to re acclimatize his speaking English and getting back his American accent. He was he definitely had much more of a Spanish accent, and was much more used to speaking Spanish for a while. So the the three month exposure period certainly got him started at the at the center there in Utah. And then he went off and did his missionary work and then came home. But, you know, it's, it's got to be a wonderful and a very valuable experience. How do you think it affected you? Devin Miller  12:10 Yeah, I think I said, I think it would be, you said it probably well, is it like one where to say, Hey, this is the most fun time in your life, and you'll never have a more fun time. I don't know that. It's kind of like, you know, I liken it to I so I like to do a lot of running, so or in older years. I don't know that I was as much in younger years, but kind of discovered not that I love running, per se, but love to get out and decompress and otherwise, kind of have a time where I don't have a lot of intrusions or other things that are pressing in on life. And so with that, you know, I've done a number of marathons and marathons, you know, everybody again, says, Well, did you have fun? Or was it a good or was it good marathon? So I don't know that it's ever fun. I don't and do it, but it's a good accomplishment. You it's, you go out, you set your mind to something, and then otherwise, at the end of the day, you reach your goal. And, you know, kind of has the that sense of accomplishment and learning and become improving yourself. That's probably a lot of how I like in a mission is, you know, you have a lot of stresses of learning a new language, being in a different culture, doing something that you're unfamiliar with or not accustomed to, and at the end, you know, you learn a lot of things, you are gain a lot of skills. You hopefully impact a lot of people's lives for the better. And so it is definitely one of those where it's a great accomplishment, but it's not, you know, it's not one way to say, hey, this was a fun vacation where I got to go play for two years. So it it works out well, and I would absolutely do it again. Michael Hingson  13:31 Yeah, I'm sure you learned a lot, and you probably learned a whole lot more in a lot of ways, than most of the people that you you visited with because you treated it as an adventure and an adventure to learn. So that's pretty cool, absolutely. So you came back from that and you went back to college, and did you continue in electrical engineering? Or what Devin Miller  13:56 did you do? Yes and no. So I did continue in electrical engineering. Or so I came back and, you know, the intent was, and what I continue to do is to study electrical engineering. I did add on a second degree, which I was a Mandarin Chinese and so I can't remember, I mentioned I I served in Taiwan for those couple years and had an opportunity to kind of, you know, learn and study the language. So as I was doing that, I kind of came back and said, Well, if I've already put in the effort to learn the language and to study it, I might as well, you know, utilize it, or add it to the degree. And so I I really started, or I added that as a second degree to the first degree. So I came out with both the degree in Chinese or man or Chinese, as well as electrical engineering. So yes, continue to study that. And then from that, you know, kind of just as a part of that story. So I was coming out, kind of getting, you know, the senior year, kind of getting towards the end of that degree, and looked at and said, you know, what do I want to do when I grow up? And I still know if I know the full answer, but I did look at it and say, Hey, I, you know, I don't know exactly what I want to do when I grow up, but I don't, I like engineering. Engineering, but I don't want to be an engineer in the sense that, you know, not that I didn't like engineering, but it was one where a typical electrical engineers, you come out of graduate school, you go work for a big company. You're a very small cog and a very big Will you work for. You know, 1015, years, you gain enough experience to have any say your direction and what projects you work on or really have any impact. Not saying that's not really what I want to do when I grow up, or when I start into the working world. And so kind of with that, I, you know, I had a couple interests I enjoyed, you know, kind of the startup, small business, kind of that type of world. And I also found it interesting to on the legal aspect of intellectual property, so patents, trademarks, and really more. At the idea of, hey, you're going to work with a lot of cooling or cool inventions, cool people are working on a lot of unique things, and you get a lot more variety. And you get, you know, kind of be more impactful. And so that was kind of the the Crossroads I found myself at saying which, you know, kind of which direction I want to go. And, you know, kind of, rather than take one or the other, I kind of, I split the road and decided I was going to do both. So I went off to graduate school and did both an MBA or a master's in business administration as well as a law degree, kind of focused more on intellectual property. So went off and studied both of those kind of with the intent of, you know, I don't want to just be fit into one box or do just one thing, but I'd like to keep a foot in the business world, startup world, and have an opportunity to pursue my own business as well as doing the law degree. So I did that in a Case Western Reserve out in Cleveland, Ohio, studying both of those degrees Michael Hingson  16:34 when you were getting your degree in manner, in Chinese. Was that all about speaking the language, or was it also involved in history and civilization and understanding more about China? What was it like? Devin Miller  16:47 It was really more, certainly, there was a or, I guess, are you saying within college or within the mission itself? 16:54 In college? Okay, yeah. I mean, it was, Devin Miller  16:57 it was still primarily focused on the language. You know, the nice thing is, you can test out of a number of the, you know, entry level or their beginning classes, as long as you can show a proficiency. So there may have been some of that, and you still got, you know, some of the classes, would you still study a little bit of poetry, or, you know, within the language context, they've used poetry as a way to kind of learn different aspects of the language. You'd get a little bit of history, but pretty, or vast majority of focus was kind of both speaking as well as the the written and, you know, those are really as opposed to, like English speaking, where it's phonetics and you can or sound out and kind of understand what a you know, what something means by sounding it out, you don't have to know the word in order To, you know, to pronounce it. Chinese is not that way. So you have characters that are just every character you have to memorize. There is no phonetics. There's no way that you can look at a character and sound it out. And so there's a large amount of just memorizing, memorizing, you know, 20,000 characters to read a newspaper type of a thing. And then on the flip side is you have to learn the language, which is, you know, which are already focused on that, more on the mission, but you have to do pronunciation, so you can say the same word with different tones and it has entirely different meaning. So really, there was enough there on the language side, they tended to primarily focus on that, just because there was quite a bit there to Michael Hingson  18:19 dive into. It's a complicated language. Devin Miller  18:23 It it is certainly or uniquely different from English. I would say probably English to Chinese speakers is the hardest language because it's the most different from their language. And vice versa for English speaking Chinese is at least one of the this or harder languages because it is entirely different. So it is one that has a lot of intricacies that you get to learn. Michael Hingson  18:45 I took German in high school for three years, and then in college, I did a lot of shortwave listening and encountered radio Japan a bunch. So I actually took a year of Japanese, and I think from a written language, it's a lot more complicated than spoken language. I think it's a lot more straightforward than Chinese and a lot of ways easier to learn. But even so, it is different than than Latin languages by any standard. Devin Miller  19:16 But it is. It's an animal in and of itself, but it makes it fun. Michael Hingson  19:21 Yeah, that's right, it does make it fun. Incident. And then, as I said, it was an adventure. And all of that was, was an adventure. My master's is in physics. That was an adventure. And until you spend a lot of time dealing with physics and hopefully getting beyond just doing the math, you learn how much of a philosophical bent and how much about society and the way things work really is wrapped up in physics. So again, it's it's kind of fun, and unlike a lot of physicists or engineers. I've never thought that one is better or worse than the other. I think they both have purposes. And so as a physics person, I never pick on engineers. Devin Miller  20:11 I am, I wouldn't pick up. I wouldn't pick on any physics or physicists or physics majors, either, because that's equally, if not more difficult. And so there's a lot of learning that goes on and involved with all of them. But they're all of them are fun areas to Michael Hingson  20:26 study with. They are. So once you you got your master's degrees, and you you got your law degree, what did you go off and do? Devin Miller  20:36 Yeah, so I mean, I would probably back it up just a little bit. So kind of during that period where I was getting the degrees, couple things happened. Had a couple kids. So started out first kid while I was doing the, I guess the second year where I was in under or doing the law and MBA degree, doing it as a joint degree. And so had the had a kid. And then during that same period, the next year, about a year about a year and a half later, had another kid. And so that puts me as a it's a four year program, if you combine both of them together. And so I was in the kind of the third year, the four year program. And while I was doing those studies, you know, I had a I was doing a couple things. One is, I was doing the both, or studying both majors, raising the family. I was working about 20 hours as a law clerk or for a law firm, and then during that, I can't remember or if it was a flyer, or if it was, you know, an email or whatnot, but came across a business competition, or it's kind of a, it was kind of a, a multi disciplinary competition wherever, you know, people of different degrees and different fields of study would get together, you form a group of four or five, and you work on developing an idea, and then you would enter it into the competition and see how it goes. And so we did that the first year, and we did something, an idea to make Gym Bags less smelly, and then enter that in and took second place. And during that period, next year comes along, we're all in our final year of our degree. And as we're doing that, we are studying the degree and or entering the competition again. And we decided to do something different. It was for wearables. You know, this is before Apple Watch, or, you know, the Fitbit, or anything else. It was well before I knew that, but we just said, Hey, when I was there, thinking, hey, wouldn't it be cool I'd ran my or, I think, my second marathon that time. Wouldn't it be awesome if you could monitor your hydration level so that you can make sure you're staying well hydrated throughout and it helps with the air, not being a sore and being, you know, quicker recovery and performing better. And so out of that, took the genesis of that idea, entered it back into the business comp, or that is a new idea, into the business competition, and did that with the partners, and took second place again, still a little bitter, or bitter that about that, because the people that took first place has entered the same thing that they entered the previous year, but polished, or took the money they've earned previously and polished it made it look a little nicer, and won again because it looked the most polished. But that aside, was a great, or great competition. Enjoyed it. And from that, you know, said, Hey, I think this is a good idea. I think it can be a, you know, something that you could actually build a business around. And so said, Hey, or kind of told the the people that were in the the group with me, you know, we're all graduating. We're going different directions. Would be pretty hard to do a startup altogether. So why don't we do this? Or why don't you guys take all the money that I got, you know that we you're in some reward money, or, you know, prize money. If you take my portion, split it amongst yourselves, and I'll just take ownership of the idea, whatever it is, where, you know, wherever I take it, and simply own it outright, you know, basically buying them out. And so that's what I did. So coming out of, you know, getting the MBA in the law degree, that was kind of always the intent. So, or coming out of school, I went and joined a law firm here in Utah. Was a full time patent attorney, and then alongside, you know, had the side hustle, what I'd really say is kind of a second full time job to where I was, you know, pursuing that startup or small business alongside of doing the law firm. So that was kind of the the genesis for, as I graduated full time attorney working, you know, with a lot of our cool clients and other things, and then also incorporating the desire to do a startup or small business. And that's kind of been, really, the trajectory that I've taken throughout my career is really, you know, finding ways to combine or to pursue both interests together. Michael Hingson  24:26 What happened to the business? Devin Miller  24:28 Yeah, so it so it's still alive today. I've been, I exited. Now it's been a couple year and a half, two years somewhere in there. Have to think back. So it started out. So with the business I started out, it was actually one where, rewinding just a little bit when we when I got started, my dad was also an electrical engineer. He'd actually, you know, he's well or farther into his career, and he done a number of different things across their medical devices through his career. And so he kind of, or he joined on as kind of doing it with us. Hustle with me, and we took that, started to build it. We brought on some additional team members. We brought on an investor, and actually built out and grew the business. It also evolved. So we were starting to test or test out the technology have it with some colleges and some other, you know, athletes, which was a natural place to start it at and about that time, and we were getting kind of to that next hurdle where we either needed to get a further investment or cash infusion, you know, to kind of take it to a more of a marketable, you know, a except a Polish full or ready to go to market type of product. And at that time, as we're exploring that we had or came or got connected with somebody that was more in the diabetes monitoring, they were doing it more from a service base. But you know, the overlay as to kind of how the technologies are overlapped with what they're doing tended to work out pretty well. And so we ended up combining the business to be one, where it was redirected a lot of the technology we developed underlining to be more of a wearables for the diabetes monitor. So that was a number of years ago. I stayed on doing a lot of, some of the engineering and development, primarily more in the intellectual property realm, of doing a lot of patents and whatnot. And then about a year and a half, two years ago, got bought out, was exited from that company and and that continues on today. It's still alive and growing, and I kind of watch it from, you know, from a distance, so to speak, or kind of continue to maintain interest, but don't are not necessarily active within the business anymore. So that was kind of a long answer to a shorter question, but that's kind of where the business eventually evolved to. Michael Hingson  26:36 So now I'm sure that the company is doing things like developing or working with products like continuous glucose monitors and so on. Devin Miller  26:46 Yep, yeah, that's kind of the direction as to what they're headed you Michael Hingson  26:49 well, and what's what's been interesting about several of the CGM type devices is that for people who are blind, there's been a real push to try to get some of them to be accessible. And what finally occurred about a year ago, maybe two years ago, is that one of the devices that's out there was approved to actually incorporate an app on a smartphone, and when the app came out, then it was really easy, although it took an effort to convince people to pay attention to it and do it, but it became technically a lot easier to deal with access, because all you had to do was to make the app accessible. And so there now is a continuous glucose monitor that that is accessible, whereas you wherein you get all the information from the app through voiceover, for example, on the iPhone or through talkback on a android phone that you get when you're just looking at the screen, which is the way it really should be anyway, because If you're going to do it, you should be inclusive and make it work for everyone. Devin Miller  28:06 No, that's cool. Yeah, there's a number of I think, between, you know, being a prevalent, you know, issue that people are dealing with, to, you know, different trying to address things earlier on, and also to motivate people do healthier lifestyle. And kind of the direction I think, is headed where a lot of the the company that's continues on today, from our original technology, is on the non invasive side. So a lot of them have, you have to have a patch, or you have to have periodically prick, or put an arm, you know, arm, right? Something where has a needle in the arm. And this one is kind of trying hair working to take it to that next level, to where it's no longer having to be invasive, and it's really all without having air with sensors that don't require you to have any sort of pain or prick in order to be able to utilize it. So kind of fun to fun to see how the industry continues to evolve. Michael Hingson  28:55 Well, today, we're working on that, and tomorrow, of course, the tricorder. So you know, we'll, we'll get to Star Trek 29:03 absolutely one step at a time. Michael Hingson  29:05 Yeah, but I've kind of figured that people were certainly working on non invasive technology so that you didn't have to have the sensor stuck in your arm. And I'm not surprised that that that's coming, and we'll be around before too long, just because we're learning so much about other ways of making the measurements that it makes sense to be able to do that. Devin Miller  29:31 Yep, no, absolutely. You know, it is a hard nut to crack. The body is very complex. A lot of things going on, and to measure it, not invasively, is certainly a lot that goes into it, but I think there's a lot of good, good technologies coming out. A lot of progress is being made, and certainly fun to continue to see how the health devices continue to hit the market. So certainly a cool area. Michael Hingson  29:53 So why did you decide, or maybe it was a natural progression, but why did you decide to go into patent law? Yeah. Devin Miller  30:01 I mean, I think it was probably a natural progression, and in the sense that, you know, it is one where overall desire was, Hey, I like engineering from the sense I like to think or how things work and kind of break things down and to have a better understanding. So really, intellectual property law and patents and trademarks and others allowed me to work with a lot of startups and small businesses, see a lot of cool things that they're developing still play a hand in it, and yet, also not, you know, be mired down to a long project over multiple years where you, you know, you're a small cog in a big wheel. And so, yeah, that was kind of one where it fit well within kind of the overall business, you know, business desire and business aspect of what I wanted to accomplish, and also just overall, you know, enjoying it or enjoying it. So that's kind of where it might, you know, it married well with the the desire to do startups and small businesses, as well as to work with a lot of other startups and small businesses. Michael Hingson  30:55 That's a lot of fun, to be able to deal with startups and see a lot of new and innovative kinds of things. And being in patent law, you probably see more than a lot of people, which does get to be exciting in an adventure, especially when you see something that looks like it has so much potential. Yep. Devin Miller  31:14 No, it is. It is fun. I get to see everything from I've worked on everything from boat anchors to credit card thing or devices that help elderly people to remove them more easily, from their wallet to AI to drones to software other or software platforms to medical devices. So it gives a ability to have a pretty good wide exposure to a lot of cool, different, you know, very different types of innovations, and that makes her just, you know, a fun, fun time, and be able to work or work with the air businesses as they develop. Are all those different technologies? Michael Hingson  31:50 Well, on the the law side of things, what's the difference between a provisional patent and a non provisional filing? Devin Miller  31:57 Yeah, so, so I don't back it up, and I'll get to your question. But maybe I'd set the stages to when you're looking at what is the difference between a patent and trademark and copyright, because a lot of times when people look at that, that's probably a good question too. Provisional trademark, or I want a, you know, or a non provisional copyright, or whatever it might be, and kind of get the terminology mixed up. So if you're to take it one step back, a provisional patent app or a patent is something that goes towards protecting an invention. So something that has the functionality that does something, that accomplishes something, a trademark is going to be something that is protecting of a brand. So name of a company, name of a product, a cash, phrase, a logo, and those type of things all really fall under trademarks and copyrights are going to be something that's more creative in nature. So a painting, a sculpture, a picture, a book, you know, all those type of things are going to fall under copyrights. And so really, when you're looking at it, you know, kind of breaking it down initially, you look at it as you know, which one is it. And so now to your question, Michael Hingson  32:58 well, before you go there, before you go ahead, before you go there. So if I'm writing software, does that fall under patent or copyright? I would assume if the software is to do something, it would be a patent. Devin Miller  33:12 So software primarily is under a patent. So there's, technically, you can copyright software. Now there's, it's pretty limited in its scope of protection. So if you're to do or software and do it under a copyright, really, all it protects is the exact way that you wrote the code. So you know, got it using this exact coding language. If somebody come along, copy and paste my code, you'll be protected. But it doesn't protect the functionality of how this code works or what it does. It is purely just how you wrote the code. So most of the time, when you're looking at software, it's really going to be more under a patent, because you're not going to want to just simply protect the identical way that you wrote the code, but rather what it does and what it does, yeah. So yep. So yeah, you for if you're to do as as your example, software, primarily, you're going to it's going to fall under patents. Michael Hingson  34:01 Okay, so anyway, back to provisional and non provisional. Devin Miller  34:05 Yeah, so, and when you're looking at doing a patent, you can do there's a couple different types of patents. One is a design patent. It really just goes to something the esthetic nature, the look and feel of a of an invention. So if you're thinking of the iPhone, you know, used to have the curved edges. I had the circle or a button at the bottom. It had, you know, the speaker placement and all those things. And it was just that outward appearance, not the functionality, could go under a design patent, but what the primary patent, which is what most people pursue, is what's called the utility patent application. And the utility patent application is really going towards the functionality of how something works. So the utility, how it works, what it does, and then kind of the purpose of it. And so with that, when you're looking at pursuing a utility patent application, there are a couple different types of patents that you can or types of utility patent patent applications. So. As you mentioned, one is called a provisional patent application. The other one is called a non provisional patent application. So a provisional patent application is kind of set up primarily, a lot of times for startups or small businesses where they're going to have a some product or an innovation that they're working on. They're in earlier stages. They're wanting to kind of protect what they have while they continue to develop it, and kind of flush it out. So provisional patent application is set up to be a one year placeholder application. So it will get, you know, you file it, you'll get patent pending, you'll get a date of invention, and it'll give you a year to decide if you want to pursue a full patent application or not. So you can file that gives you that one year time frame as a placeholder. The non provisional patent application would be the full patent application. So that would be what has, all the functionality, all the features, all the air, formalities and air, and it will go through the examination process. We'll go look at it for patentability. So those are kind of the difference provisional, one year, placeholder, less expensive, get your patent pending, versus the non provisional, that's the full patent application and gives you kind of that, or we'll go through examination. Michael Hingson  36:12 Do most people go through the provisional process just because it not only is less expensive, but at least it puts a hold and gives you a place. Devin Miller  36:22 It really just depends on where people are at. So kind of, you know, a lot of times people ask, Hey, well, what would you recommend? And I'll usually say, hey, there are typically two reasons why I would do a provisional patent application. And if you don't fall into either of those camps, then I would probably do a non provisional patent. Got it. So generally, the two reasons I get one is certainly budgetary. Give you an example. So our flat fee, you know, we do our primarily everything, flat fee in my firm, and a provisional patent application to prepare and file it, our flat fee is 2500 versus a non provisional patent application is 6950 so one is, Hey, your startup, small business, to have a limited funds, you're wanting to get a level of protection in place while you continue to pursue or develop things, then you would oftentimes do that as a provisional patent application. And the other reason, a lot of times where I would recommend it is, if you're saying, Hey, we've got a initial innovation, we think it's going to be great. We're still figuring things out, so we'd like to get something in place while we continue to do that research and develop it and kind of further figure it out. So that would be kind of, if you fall into one of those camps where it's either budgetary overlay, or it's one where you're wanting to get something in place and then take the next year to further develop it, then a provisional patent application is oftentimes a good route. There are also a lot of clients say, Hey, I'm, you know, we are pretty well. Did the Research Development getting ready to release it in the marketplace. While we don't have unlimited funds, we still have the ability to just simply go or go straight to a non provisional so we can get the examination process started, and then they'll go that route. So both of them are viable route. It's not kind of necessarily. One is inherently better or worse than the other is kind of more where you're at along the process and what, what kind of fits your needs the best. Michael Hingson  38:09 But at least there is a process that gives you options, and that's always good. Absolutely, patent laws, I well, I won't say it's straightforward, but given you know, in in our country today, we've got so many different kinds of things going on in the courts and all that, and sometimes one can only shake one's head at some of the decisions that are made regarding politics and all that, but that just seems to be a whole lot more complicated and a lot less straightforward than what you do With patent law? Is that really true? Or are there lots of curves that people bend things to go all sorts of different ways that make life difficult for you? Devin Miller  38:50 Um, probably a little bit of both. I think that it so. The law, legal system in general, is a much more slower moving enemy, so it does have a bit more of a kind of a basis to anticipate where things are headed in general. Now, the exception is, there always is an exception to the rule. Is that anytime the Supreme Court gets involved with patent law cases, I'd say 95% of the time, they make it worse rather than better. So, you know, you get judges that none of them are really have an experience or background in patent law. They've never done it. They really don't have too much familiarity with it, and now they're getting posed questions that are fairly involved in intricate and most of the time when they make decisions, they make it worse. It's less clear. You know, it's not as great of understanding, and it otherwise complicates things more. And so when you get the Supreme Court involved, then they can kind of make it more difficult or kind of shake things up. But by and large, it is a not that there isn't a lot of or involved in going through the process to convince the patent and examiner the patent office of patentability and make sure it's well drafted and has the it's good of coverage and scope, but at least there is, to a degree, that ability to anticipate. Hate, you know what it what's going to be required, or what you may likely to be looking at. You know? The other exception is, is, you know, the, ironically, I think the patent office is the only budget or producing or budget positive entity within all of the government. So every other part of the government spends much more money than they ever make. The Patent Office is, I think the, I think the postal office at one point was the other one, and they have, now are always in the in the red, and never make any money. But, you know, they are the patent office. Now, the problem with that is, you think, great, well now they can reinvest. They can approve, they should have the best technology, they should be the most up to date. They should have, you know, all the resources because they're self funding, and yet, there's always a piggy bank that the government goes to raid and redirects all those funds to other pet projects. And so, or the patent office is always, perpetually underfunded, as ironic as that is, because they're getting, always getting the piggy bank rated, and so with that, you know, they are, if you're to go into a lot of the patent office, their interfaces, their websites or databases, their systems, it feels like you're the onset of the or late 90s, early 2000s as far as everything goes. And so that always is not necessarily your question, but it's always a bit aggravating that you know you can't, as an example, can't submit color drawings. People ask, can you submit videos? Nope, you can't submit any videos of your invention, you know, can you provide, you know, other types of information? Nope, it's really just a written document, and it is line drawings that are black and white, and you can't submit anything beyond that. So there's one where I think eventually it will sometime, maybe shift or change, but it's going to be not anytime soon. I don't think there's any time on the horizon, because they're kind of stuck it once they move, moved over to the lit or initially onto the computer system, that's about where that evolution stopped. Michael Hingson  41:51 Well, the other thing though, with with videos, especially when you get AI involved and so on, are you really seeing a video of the invention. Or are you seeing something that somebody created that looks great, but the invention may not really do it. So I can understand their arguments, but there have to be ways to deal with that stuff. Devin Miller  42:13 Yeah, and I think that even be prior to AI, even we just had, you know, videos been around for 20 or 30 years, even, you know, digital format or longer. That probably, and the problem is, I think it's more of the search ability. So if you have a drawing, you can more easily search drawings and compare them side by side, and they'll do it. If you have a video, you know what? What format is the video? And is it a, you know, dot movie, or dot MOV, or is it.mp for is it color? Is it black and white? How do you capture it? Is it zoomed in as a kind of show all the details? Or is it zoomed out? And I think that there's enough difficulty in comparing video side by side and having a rigid enough or standardized format, the patent office said, man, we're not going to worry about it. Yes, so we could probably figure something out, but that's more work than anybody, any administration or any of the directors of the patent office ever want to tackle so it's just always kind of kicked down the road. Michael Hingson  43:06 Do they ever actually want to see the invention itself? Devin Miller  43:12 Not really, I mean, you so the short answer is no. I mean, they want to see the invention as it's captured within the the patent application. So the problem Michael Hingson  43:21 is, the drawing, they don't want to see the actual device, or whatever it is, well, and a lot Devin Miller  43:24 of times, you know as a inventors, they you know as a patent applicants, as the inventors and the owners, you're saying, hey, but I want to show them the invention. Problem is, the invention doesn't always mirror exactly what's showing in the patent application. Because you're on generation three of your product patent application is still in generation one, yeah, and so it doesn't mirror, and so the examiners are supposed to, they don't always, or aren't always good, and sometimes pull things and they shouldn't, but they're supposed to just consider whatever is conveyed in the patent application. Yeah, it's a closed world. And so bringing those additional things in now you can, so technically, you can request a live in office interview with the examiner, where you sit down live. You can bring in your invention or other or details and information, and when you do it live, face to face with an interview, you can walk them through it. Most very few people attorneys ever do that because one clients aren't going to want to pay for you to one of the offices, put you up in a hotel, you know, sit there, spend a day or two to or with the examiner to walk them through it. It just adds a significant amount of expense. Examiners don't particularly like it, because they have to dedicate significantly more time to doing that. Yeah, they're allotted, so they lose they basically are doing a lot of free work, and then you're pulling in a lot of information that they really can't consider. So you technically can. But I would say that you know, the likelihood of the majority of attorneys, 99 point whatever, percent don't do that, including myself. I've never been to do a live or live one, just because it just doesn't, it doesn't have enough advantage to make it worthwhile. Michael Hingson  44:58 Well, in talking about. About the law and all the things that go on with it. One of the things that comes to mind is, let's say you have somebody in the United States who's patenting, or has made a patent. What happens when it all goes to it gets so popular, or whatever, that now it becomes an international type of thing. You've got, I'm sure, all sorts of laws regarding intellectual property and patents and so on internationally. And how do you get protection internationally for a product? Devin Miller  45:32 File it in each country separately. So, you know, there are people, and I understand the inclinations, hey, I want to get a worldwide or global patent that covers everything in every country. The short answer is, you can't. I mean, technically, you could, if you file a patent into every country separately, nobody, including when I used to work or do work for companies including Intel and Amazon and Red Hat and Ford. They don't have patents in every single country throughout the world because they just don't have enough marketplace. You know, you go to a very small, let's say, South African country that you know, where they just don't sell their product enough in it, it just doesn't make the sense, or the courts or the systems or the patent office isn't well enough to find, or it's not enforceable enough that it just doesn't capture that value. And so there isn't a ability to have a global, worldwide patent, and it really is one where you have to file into each country separately. They each have their own somewhat similar criteria, still a different, somewhat similar process, but they each have their own criteria in their process that has to go through examination. So when you're looking at you know when you want to go for whether it's in the US or any other country, when you're deciding where you want to file it, it's really a matter of what marketplaces you're going to be selling the product into. So if you look at it and you know, I have as an example, some clients that 95% of their marketplace is all in the US, that's where they anticipate, that's probably where they're going to sell it. Well, yes, you could go and find, if you have 2% of your marketplace in Japan, you could go file a patent and get it into Japan, but you have such a small amount of your marketplace that's probably there that it doesn't make sense. And vice versa will have as an example. And a lot of times in the medical devices, they'll a lot of times file both in the EU as well as in the US, because those are two of the predominant medical device and are places where a lot of innovation is going on, where there's a lot of focus on utilization, development, medical devices, and there's just a lot of that demand. And so you're really going to look at it is which, where's your marketplace. The other times are the people, a lot of times, they'll get tripped up on so they'll say, Well, I probably need to file into China, right? And I said, Well, maybe because the inclination is, well, everybody just goes to China. They'll knock off the product. And so I want to have a patent in China so that I can, you know, fight against the knockoffs. And that isn't while I again, understand why they would ask that question. It wouldn't be the right way to convey it. Because if you if all it is is they you have no real, you know, no desire, no plan, to go into China. You're not going to sell it. You're not going to build a business there. If they're knocking it off and just just doing it in China, so to speak, then they're not. There isn't going to be a need to file a patent in China, because you don't have any marketplace in there. There's nothing really to protect. And if somebody makes it in China as a just picking on China, making as an example, and imports it into the US, you can still enforce your patent or otherwise do or utilize it to stop people from importing knock off because it's in the US, because they're, yeah, exactly, they're selling it, importing it, or otherwise doing activities in the US. So it's really a matter of where your marketplace is, not where you think that somebody might knock it off. Or, Hey, I'm gonna get a try and get a global patent, even though my marketplace is really in one or two spots. Michael Hingson  48:38 What about products like, say, the iPhone, which are commonly used all over. Devin Miller  48:44 Yeah, they're going to do, they'll do a lot of countries. They still Michael Hingson  48:47 won't do. They'll still do kind of country by country. Devin Miller  48:50 Yeah, they'll now, they'll do a lot of countries. Don't get me wrong, a lot of right. Phones are sold throughout the world, but they'll still look at it as to where it is, and they still have, you know, issues with them. So one of the interesting tidbits as an example, so going back and rewinding your time, taking apple as an example. You know, they came out with, originally, the iPod, then they had iPhone, and then they had the iPad. Now the question is, when they originally came out with their watch, what did they call it? 49:17 Apple Watch? Apple Watch. Now, why Devin Miller  49:20 didn't they call the I wash, which is what it made sense. It goes right along with the iPhone, the iPad, the iPhone, you know, the all of those iPod on that. And it was because somebody had already got a trademark in China that was for a different company, unrelated to the apple that had it for the iWatch. And so when Apple tried to go into the country, they tried to negotiate. They tried to bully. They weren't able to successfully get the rights or to be able to use I wash within China. China was a big enough market, and so they had and rather than try and split it and call it the I wash everywhere but China and trying to have the Apple Watch in China, they opted to call it the Apple Watch. Now I think they might. Of eventually resolve that, and I think it's now can be referred to as the I watch, I'm not sure, but for, at least for a long period of time, they couldn't. They called it the Apple Watch when they released it, for that reason. So even if you have, you know, a big company and one of the biggest ones in the world, you still have to play by the same rules. And why, you can try and leverage your your size and your wealth and that to get your way, there's still those, there's still those hindrances. So that's kind of maybe a side, a side note, but it's kind of one that's interesting. Michael Hingson  50:30 So that's the trademark of how you name it. But how about the technology itself? When the Apple Watch was created, I'm assuming that they were able to patent that. Devin Miller  50:39 Yeah, they will have, I'm sure they probably have anywhere from 30 to 100 to 200 I mean, they'll have a significant amount of patents, even it's just within the Apple Watch, everything from the screen, the display, how it's waterproof, how it does communications, how does the battery management, how does the touch, how does the interface, all of those are going to be different aspects that they continue to, you know, did it originally in the original Apple Watch, and are always iterating and changing as they continue to improve the technology. So generally, you know that, I'm sure that you will start out with as a business of protecting you're getting a foundational patent where you kind of protect the initial invention, but if it's successful and you're building it out, you're going to continue to file a number of patents to capture those ongoing innovations, and then you're going to file it into all of the countries where you have a reasonable market size that makes it worthwhile to make the investment. Michael Hingson  51:32 So if you have a new company and they've got a name and all that, what should new businesses do in terms of looking and performing a comprehensive search for of trademarks and so on to make sure they are doing the right thing. Devin Miller  51:49 Yeah, a couple of things. I mean, it wanted, if you're it depends on the size of company, your budget, there's always the overlay of, you know, you can want to do everything in the world, and if you don't have the budget, then you have to figure out what goes in your budget. But if I'll take it from kind of a startup or a small business perspective, you know, you first thing you should do is just as stupid and as easy as it sounds, you should go do a Google search. Or, now that you have chat GPT, go do a chat BT search and a Google search. But, you know, because it's interesting as it sounds, or, you know, is you think that, oh, that's, you know, kind of give me or an automatic I'll have still even till today, people come into my office. They'll say, Hey, I've got this great idea, this great invention, and a Lacher getting a patent on it, and they'll start to walk me through it. I'm like, you know, I could have sworn I've seen that before. I've seen something very similar. We'll sit down at my desk, take two minutes, do a Google search, and say, so is this a product that you're thinking of? Oh, yeah, that's exactly it. Okay. Well, you can't really get a patent on something that's already been invented and out there, and so, you know, do a little bit of research yourself. Now there is a double edged sword, because you can do research and sometimes you'll have one or two things happen. You'll not having the experience and background, not entirely knowing what you're doing. You'll do research, and you'll either one say, Hey, I've done a whole bunch of research. I can't really find anything that's similar. When, in fact, there's a lot of similar things out there. There's a patent, and people will say, yeah, it's the same, it's the same invention, but my purpose is a little bit different. Well, you can't if it's the exact same or invention. Whether or not you say your purpose is different, doesn't get around their patent and same thing on a trademark. Yeah, their brand's pretty much 53:20 identical, but they're Devin Miller  53:21 doing legal services and I'm doing legal tools, and so it's different, and it's, again, it's one where there's there they have a false sense of security because they rationalize in their head why it's different, or vice versa. You also get people that will say, Hey, this is even though it's significantly different, it's the same purpose. And so while, while they really could go do the product, while they could get a patent or a trademark, because they think that it's just overall kind of the same concept, then they talk themselves out of it when they don't need to. So I would say, start out doing some of that initial research. I would do it if I was in their shoes, but temper it with, you know, do it as an initial review. If there's something that's identical or the same that's out there, then it gives you an idea. Probably, you know, you're not going to be able to add a minimum, get or patent their intellectual property protection, and you may infringe on someone else's but if you you know, if there's, there's some differences, or have to do that initial research, that's probably the time, if you're serious about, you know, investing or getting business up and going, you've probably engaged an attorney to do a more formal search, where they have the experience in the background and ability to better give a better understanding or determination as to whether or not something presents an issue. Michael Hingson  54:32 Yeah, well, that's understandable. If I've developed something and I have a patent for it, then I suddenly discovered that people are selling knockoffs or other similar devices on places like Amazon and so on. What do you do about that? Because I'm sure there must be a bunch of that that that does go on today. Devin Miller  54:53 Yeah, yes, it does. I mean, I wouldn't say it's not as probably as prevalent as some people think. In other words, not every single. Product, right, being knocked off. Not everything is copied. Sometimes it's because, you know, either I don't have the ability, I don't have the investment, I don't have the, you know, it's not as big enough marketplace, I don't have the manufacturing, I don't have the connections, or it is simply, am respectful, and I'm not going to go do a discord because I'm not going to try and rip off, you know, what I think is someone else's idea. So it doesn't happen that as frequently as I think sometimes people think it does, but it certainly does occur. You know, there's a competitive marketplace, there's a profit incentive, and if there's a good product that's out there that people think they can do something with, and there's a motivation to do it, either because people are unaware that it's an issue, or that they they're unaware that they can't copy it or is protected. And so if you get into that, you know, there's a few potentially different recourses. One is, you know, a lot of times you'll start out with the cease and desist. Now caveat. A cease and assist letter doesn't have any legal teeth. It is basically a letter that you can either send yourself, or if you want to look more seriously at a law firm, send that basically says, Hey, we're putting on notice. We believe there's an issue. We'd like to remedy this outside of the court system or the legal system, to give you an opportunity to fix it. You know, you're on notice. Either fix it or we're going to pursue it, and it's going to cost you a lot more. So a lot of times, you'll start out the cease and assist. Now you don't have to. Some people don't because they say, Hey, doesn't have any legal, you know, legal recourse, or doesn't have any legal teeth to it. And I just want to get, you know, to work to resolve or get this going in the court system. So some people think, well, I'll get a cease and assist letter. If they get that, then I'll be fine. I'll just stop doing it, no harm, no foul. That's not the case. If you're ripping somebody off, or you're infringing intentionally or not, they can come after you, whether or not you stop just because you or once you become aware of it. In other words, it's kind of like speeding. You can't just simply say, Well, I didn't know that I was going 70 and a 40 mile an hour. I didn't know it was 40 miles an hour, so I'm okay. If I just or when the cop pulls me over, I say, I'll go 40 miles an hour. Now you can't simply do that same thing with infringement. So a lot of times, it starts with the cease and desist beyond that you kind of have, depending on where it's being sold, you can sometimes have a couple different options. Always you have the option of going in and doing, you know, enforcing whether it's patent, trademarks, copyrights. You can enforce those in court now, enforcing them in court, if you go through from start to finish, with some very small amount of cases, go all the way from start to finish, because they usually settle out. But if they go start to finish a patent lawsuit, you're at least six, if not seven figures, sometimes eight figures, to get all the way through. If you go to a trademark lawsuit, you're usually anywhere from 30 to 60 or 70,000 if you go to copyrights, you're probably anywhere from 20 to 40,000 so it's not a insignificant investment. And people say, well, then nobody ever enforces your patent. Well, your apple is an example, and you're making millions of or billions of dollars off the iPhone, then a million dollar lawsuit to protect that source of an investment makes sense. If you're only making $10,000 a year off your product, going and doing a lawsuit, even if you have a patent, doesn't make sense. So you do have to have that as an overlay, but it's always an option. With some of the advent of some of the things, like Amazon, to a lesser degree, social media marketplaces, a lot of times, they have options to for enforceability that you can pursue. It's not as rigid, or it doesn't have as much or ability to go back and forth and prove your case is a lawsuit. But as an example, if you're selling on Amazon, Amazon for patents, trademarks and copyrights, they have their own internal system that you can submit a an issue or complaint, and you have to still pay, it's not free, and go through their process, but now you're more like as an example, if you submit a patent and you have a legitimate, you know, gripe, you can sometimes get through that process for four to $7,000 which is a lot more doable. And so you can submit, hey, here's what they're doing, here's my patent, here's what their product is. They'll have somebody that isn't a judge or a jury, but is still within their legal department. They will look at that, make a determination. Sometimes they'll reach out to you or to the other party and get more details information, and they will make a determination. So that's oftentimes where, you know, I encourage people to start just because it is oftentimes a less expensive way that if you can remedy an issue, it gives you a better recourse, it may give you the same outcome that is less expensive. In that, as I said, you have kind of some of those similar recourses on social media, you know, Facebook marketplace or others, that you can do some of those same types of enforcement activities. So sometimes you can go other less expensive recourses, and other times you have to decide, you know, the couple others. And I'll pause, I mean, sometimes you all say, well, I'll never have that much money. And, you know, I always like to point out, you know, it doesn't mean that just because you can't afford a lawsuit to somebody else that can't afford the lawsuit on your behalf. So the example, Apple has a every big company, or every company, really, almost always has a competitor. Apple has Sams and coke has Pepsi, you know, Ford has Chevy, those type of things. And so. Sometimes you're going to say, hey, this, you know, biggest player, Apple's ripping me off. Well, I can't take on Apple. If this is truly valuable and they really are likely infringing, go to SAMHSA as an example. And either, you know, work, collaborate with them, license your or your technology and your patent, or, you know, look for acquisition and the bigger players, if it's valuable to them. Oftentimes we'll do that. Or there's also sometimes, you know, they get a bad rap, and often times rightly so, but they're what are called patent trolls, which are there in the process of they will look for patents that they think are likely to be infringed, have a legitimate case and are worthwhile to pursue, and they're basically law firms or similar entities then we'll go and either require a patent or work out a deal where they'll enforce it on your behalf. And now they do it without, typically a large investment. In other words, they'll front the cost, but they also take a pretty good amount of the damages that are, yeah, so there's a number of different ways to do it, you know, depending on kind of what your circumstance is, how big it is, how big the damages are, how big the other player is, but those are kind of a few of the typical recourses. Michael Hingson  1:01:06 So here's a question that I always found interesting. My wife, when she was alive, was a quilter, and one of the things she could never do was to create any kind of quilt or needlepoint or any kind of design using any Disney characters, because Disney had wrapped all of that up, and, and, and the word came down to the whole world, if you use the Disney character, will sue you. Is that really? That? Can that really be locked into that level. Yep, pretty much. I mean, it's all trademarked, and Devin Miller  1:01:45 most of it is under copyright. So if you're copyright, Mickey Mouse, his image is going to be copyrighted. Yeah. Copyrights are typically, you know, depending on when they're filed and how they do it, nine years plus the life of the author. So they have a pretty good lifespan. And so, you know, it is copyright, and Disney is a very aggressive if I were to give them the one in the one hand, they squash everybody. They will heavily monitor and even if you're a smaller business, if you get any sort of online presence or any sort of are selling it, they have a lot of tools that monitor all the marketplaces and websites and scraping, and they will eventually, like you, find you. Now you may, if you're only selling $1,000 or you're just selling it in the farmer's market, and you're really not online, it may be difficult to detect you. You may be able to get away with it, but if you get any size or any real presence, especially if you're online, they will find out, and they'll come after you, and they'll probably sue you. Best case scenario is they'll give you a cease and desist, and you'll plead innocence, and they might give you the exception, but I wouldn't count on it. Yeah, the one note I would say is that Disney is having a problem of some of their earliest characters and some of their earliest copyrights. Have they been around long enough that they have their trade or copyrights have now expired? So if you're to take Steamboat Willie is an example there, which is really the original Mickey Mouse that is no longer that that copyright has expired, so it's the life of the copyright, and it's available to the public. So if you were to go and base a quilt on a Mickey Mouse character that is Steamboat Willie, you could or you could go do that, and they wouldn't have any real recourse. Now, the opposite isn't true. If you go do the current iteration of Mickey Mouse, which is does not look the same, has different designs. Yeah, the ears are bigger. The nose is different. A lot of the shapes are different. That is selling their copyrights, right? So you have to be careful the version. Same thing with a lot of the Winnie the Pooh characters, Winnie the Pooh is now, or the original Winnie the Pooh is not under copyright anymore. Same thing with Piglet, same thing with Tigger. And that's actually one of the interesting things was, is as those came out of copyright, so as they were no longer protected, the first thing that the industries did is they wouldn't made a whole bunch of horror, slasher movies based on those original characters. And so you can go find a Mickey Mouse, a murderous Mickey Mouse that's out there. There's a Winnie the Pooh. That's a slasher movie that's out there. They basically took iconic kids, you know, family friendly things, and did the exact opposite, which is make it as as terrible and as horrible as possible, and put it out in a movie. Never seen the movies. I'm not a big slasher in horror. Yeah, I'm not. But so that. So those are instances to where, yes, they are very aggressive. Same thing, Disney owns Marvel. You do anything with Marvel, same thing, they're going to come after you super aggressively, because they have billions of dollars tied up in those in those brands, Michael Hingson  1:04:31 Stan Lee might come. Stan Lee might come and haunt you exactly. Devin Miller  1:04:36 But you know, so you ask, yeah, they are very aggressive. You would that they would probably be a fairly accurate, you know, understanding that they'll come after you, but there are starting to be, because they've been around long enough and their copyrights have expired, some ways to start to navigate around that Michael Hingson  1:04:52 interesting, but it makes sense and but that's why I asked the question. I was just curious, because I I sort of assumed that you. Was really locked up that way. And my wife said, we'll never, we'll never do anything like with Disney characters and all that. And she never put it even in charity quilts and so on, just because they're, they're that protected. And you know, the other side of it is, I understand that. You know, Disney worked hard to create its brands and so on. So that's understandable. The irony Devin Miller  1:05:25 always is, is, when you're the start of the small business, you always say, this is unfair. They're picking on it. They're anti competitive. They don't want to allow for competition right up until you create something of your own that's starting to get some value, yeah. And if somebody else comes and knocks it off, then you're right back to well, I don't want, I put all this time, money and effort to build this I want to make the money. You can't just simply knock it off and copy me. So it always kind of is which side of the coin you're on. If you're on the one that has done the time and the work and the effort you want to capture maintain that value, if you're the one that wants to be the competitor to the business, then you always gripe about how unfair it is, how aggressive and anti competitive they are. Yeah, it's kind of whichever side you're, which side of the issue you're on. Michael Hingson  1:06:07 Have, have you ever written any books talking about any of this? 1:06:11 Um, I haven't done any books. So we have. Devin Miller  1:06:15 I have technically done one book. So we do. I do my own podcast. It's called the inventive journey. We did have the fur some of the top episodes were basically just transcribed and a little bit summarized and adjusted, but really just it was mostly taking those top episodes and put it into a book format. So technically, I wouldn't count it as writing a book, because it was really more of taking a podcast and putting in book form. But that is out there. But beyond that, I do a lot of content, so we have, I probably done at this point, hundreds of blog posts, tons of information, a lot of resources. I do both webinars, I do podcasts and put out a lot of content, but I haven't really ever taken a time. And, you know, the honest reason is, as part of it, I think books are good and good and bad in the sense of air they written. Books are dying out now that they My kids love written books, you know, hard paper cap. I actually like those, but it is slowly, slowly decreasing the marketplace and really as a business, I've always had a hard time for me personally, in the industry and business, I've been finding enough justification for how I would actually go out and make a return on it, as well as leverage it and utilize it and utilize it to drive clients, which is really what you want to do, right? You put out the book with the intent of, hey, now I'm going to use this as ability to generate clients. A problem is, is, you know, that requires you to go out, you have to get enough readership, you have to be able to market it, you have to link it to your services. And I've just never been able to make that close enough connection to really justify putting out a book, I'm sure I, you know, I can speak and write and do enough things to fill plenty of pages. But as a business justification, I've always found that, you know, if I put on an online blog post as an example, and I put it on our website and I put it on LinkedIn and others, then it gets SEO. I can share it easily with clients. I can refer back to it with what we do. People find it. So I can put out a lot of that same content that would go in a book without doing in a book format, and it gives the ability to more tight or directly tie it with the business. So that's always the justification I found for putting it out in different other formats. Michael Hingson  1:08:12 Well, even so, since you've done a compilation of podcasts, if you have a picture of the book cover, I'd love to put it in the show notes. Devin Miller  1:08:20 Yeah, I can certainly send it along to you, and it's available on Amazon. You know, I don't know how often it gets purchased, because we primarily put it out as a client generation. We'd give it away with we do client gift boxes to all of our clients. When you're new on board, you'll get a it's a water bottle. You get some treats, to get some other fun things. We put it in there. So we've sold a few bucks, but it's certainly not from the perspective of, I'm not a top listed author, not a will, you know, okay, have lots of reviews and all that, but I'd love to Michael Hingson  1:08:52 share, happy to share the book cover and the picture. That'd be great. Well, if people want to reach out to you and maybe explore using your services, how do they do that? Devin Miller  1:09:02 Yeah, I'll give a few different ways, depending on how and what they want to reach out to me for. So general website, which has a lot of great content, or content lot of information. You know, one thing we do is we have all of our flat fees, which is transparent, makes it easy to understand what things will cost, lot of resources. And, as you said, blog posts and other things, if they just want the general website is law with miller.com I mean, they can always go there if they want to more. Connect up with me one on one. So I offer free consultation. Sit down with you for you know, typically on phone or virtually. They're welcome to come in the office, but we have clients in all 50 states. They can go to strategy meeting com that links right to my calendar. It's an easy way to schedule a consultation and chat one on one. So that's the second way. And the other one is, I'm not overly active. I know we have presence, and I post every once in a while on the other platforms. Primarily, I'm on LinkedIn, just because I like it, because it's more business related. Yeah, if they want to go to meet. Miller.com that will direct it to to my LinkedIn profile, and you can connect up with me there. So general website, law with miller.com if you want to schedule a consultation strategy meeting, calm, and if you want to connect up with me on LinkedIn, going to meet miller.com Michael Hingson  1:10:16 Well, Devin, this has been fun, and I've learned a lot, and I always like to to feel that I'm learning at least as much as anybody else who listens. So I appreciate your time and all that we've had to talk about today. This has been great. So thank you for doing it, and I want to thank all of you out there for being with us. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, [email protected], A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear from you. Please give us a five star rating wherever you're observing our podcast from. We value those ratings very, very much. And of course, for all of you and Devin you as well. If you know anyone else who want to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, please introduce us. We're always looking for more folks who have stories to tell, and that's that's what makes this podcast fun. You never know where stories are coming from. But again, Devin, I want to thank you. This has been great, and I really appreciate you being here with us today. 1:11:14 I've had an awesome time. I definitely appreciate you having me on. Michael Hingson  1:11:19 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Imagination, storytelling, and the human voice are at the heart of this conversation I shared with voice actor and coach Linda Bearman. We talked about her journey from early acting to decades in voiceover, why audio drama is finding new life, and what it really takes to build a career in a changing industry shaped by home studios and AI. Linda offered honest insight into training, discipline, and the business side of voice work, along with a clear reminder that technology cannot replace lived experience, emotional truth, or imagination. More than anything, this episode is about staying human, staying kind, and following the passion that brings stories to life, no matter how fast the world changes. Highlights: 00:10 – Hear why sounding natural and emotionally present matters more than performance tricks in voice acting. 02:52 – Learn why audio drama is resurging and what today’s audiences are craving from storytelling again. 10:48 – Understand how voiceover evolved into a true craft and why it demands respect, discipline, and training. 20:17 – Get a clear look at how AI has already changed the voiceover industry and where human voices still hold the edge. 30:18 – Discover why imagination is a muscle that must be trained to bring stories to life through audio alone. 55:22 – Learn why preserving classic radio techniques is essential to developing the next generation of voice actors. About the Guest: Linda Bearman has amassed decades of experience in the performing arts beginning as a child actress and continuing into adulthood. Her career was enriched by studies and performances in the US and abroad working with legendary actors from prestigious theatre's including; The Arena Stage (Washington D.C.), The Actors Studio (NYC), The National Theatre of Great Britain and The Old Vic (UK). After obtaining her degree in Acting, Linda continued performing on stage and screen until moving to Los Angeles where she transitioned into TV production working for King World Productions on shows; The Oprah Winfrey Show, Jeopardy! and Wheel of Fortune. Later, while working for Landmark Productions she was offered a position at the esteemed commercial talent agency, SBV,Inc (Sutton, Barth & Vennari). Becoming a VO agent was a pivotal point in Linda's career as it was there that Linda discovered her passion for voiceover, an art form that perfectly aligned with her acting background and business acumen.  Following seven years at SBV, she relocated to Utah and worked in the casting department of Leucadia Film Corp. while also voicing regional radio and TV commercials. Recognizing the need for a professional full service talent agency in Salt Lake City, she established, co-owned and operated the successful TMG,Inc. (Talent Management Group) in its first decade of business. Her enthusiasm for developing talent led her to become a full-time VO coach, mentoring actors in performance techniques, branding, marketing, and demo production of which several earned industry recognitions. She stays up to date with the latest industry developments and actively shares it with her clients. Linda is honored to serve as a judge for the annual international SOVAS Arts Awards (Society of Voice Arts and Sciences) and delights in performing live recreations of radio shows from the "Golden Age" with REPS (Radio Enthusiasts of Puget Sound) in Seattle, WA each year.  Ways to connect with Linda**:** LinkedIn-Linda Bearman About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes:

What if your website is quietly turning people away without you ever knowing it? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, Michael Hingson talks with Lori Osbourne, a branding strategist and web accessibility advocate whose personal health journey reshaped how she helps businesses show up online. Lori shares how unclear messaging, weak branding, and inaccessible websites block trust, visibility, and growth. Together, they unpack why accessibility is not just about compliance, but about inclusion, credibility, and better SEO, and how simple changes like clearer messaging, alt text, contrast, and video captions can transform both user experience and business results. Highlights: 00:01 – Understand why disability is often left out of diversity conversations and why that needs to change 13:56 – Learn how a life-altering health crisis forced a complete reset in career and priorities 27:10 – Discover why a website alone is not enough to establish authority or visibility 34:19 – Learn why unclear messaging is the biggest reason websites fail to convert 44:43 – Understand what website accessibility really means and who it impacts 59:42 – Learn the first step to take if your online presence feels overwhelming About the Guest: Lori Osborne, affectionately known as The Authority Amplifier, is a Brand Strategist, Website Consultant, and the founder of BizBolster Web Solutions. With over 25 years in technology and nearly a decade of experience helping coaches, consultants, authors, and speakers build a profitable online presence, Lori is the powerhouse behind The Authority Platform™, a complete done-for-you system designed to transform overwhelm into opportunity. Her signature branding process, The Authority Blueprint™, helps clients clarify their message, define their visual and verbal identity, and identify what truly sets them apart in their field. She then brings that strategy to life with an authority-building website - strategically crafted on the Duda platform to reflect credibility, connect authentically, and convert consistently - without the headaches of WordPress maintenance or tech confusion. Unlike agencies that offer cookie-cutter sites or developers who disappear after launch, Lori builds long-term relationships by delivering personalized, high-touch service. Through The Authority Platform™, she combines brand clarity, trust-building web design, lead generation funnels, SEO, accessibility, and sales systems into one cohesive, visibility-driving engine. Lori is known for her warmth, resilience, and insightfulness, and for making her clients feel fully seen and heard. If you're ready to stop spinning your wheels with digital tools that don’t deliver, and finally create a platform that amplifies your voice, authority, and impact, Lori is your strategic partner. Ways to connect with Lori**:** https://www.bizbolster.com/ https://www.linkedin.com/in/loriaosborne/ https://www.facebook.com/bizbolster https://www.instagram.com/bizbolsterlori Link to Freebie: https://www.bizbolster.com/vip-visibility-audit About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:17 Well, hello everyone. Welcome to unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. I am your host, Michael Hingson, or you can call me Mike, it's fine, and I gave the full title of the podcast for a very specific reason. Where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet, typically, diversity people never want to include disabilities in what they discuss or what they do. And if you ask the typical diversity people, what's diversity? They'll talk about race, gender, sexual orientation, and they don't deal with disabilities. But the reality is, and they say that disability isn't a real mindset. Well, Balderdash, it is. Just asked the 25% of America's population, according to the CDC, that has a disability, and they'll tell you that disability is a minority. But the reason I bring it all up is today, we get to talk with Lori Osborne, and she is a person who's been very deeply involved in website development, in branding and coaching, and she is very concerned about and likes to try to help deal with the issue of accessibility on websites. So we're going to have a fun time talking about all of that, much less the platform she uses, as opposed to WordPress, and I'm really curious to hear more about that, because I've my website is a WordPress website, but, but, you know, I think there are so many different ways to deal with things today. We'll, we'll have a fun time. But Lori, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Thank you Lori Osbourne  02:56 so much for having me. Mike, I love being here. Cannot wait to talk. Michael Hingson  03:01 Well, let's do it. Why don't we start by you telling us kind about the early Laurie growing up and all that stuff, and kind of how you got started. Okay, start at the beginning. Lori Osbourne  03:14 At the beginning. All right. I was born in San Diego. More your neck of the woods. San Diego Naval Hospital, but only got to live in California for two years, which I've always been disappointed about. My my family had my grandfather built a home in La Jolla. So you know, I was I've always been jealous of how my mom got to grow up, but I only got to spend two years there and then I got moved to Norman, Oklahoma, home of the Sooners, never watched football, never went to one football game my entire life. Michael Hingson  03:51 I've never been to a professional or college football game. My wife had, but I never got to go to a football game. I think it'd be kind of fun to do once, as long as I could still pick it up on the radio and know what's going on. Lori Osbourne  04:03 There you go. Yeah, I had zero interest in football until I met my current husband in 2011 and he doesn't miss a professional football game, an NFL game. So I have, I have come to embrace it and enjoy the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Kansas City Chiefs. So there you go. Michael Hingson  04:24 So you're in Florida and you don't root for a Florida team, huh? Lori Osbourne  04:29 I don't, we won't hold it again, you know. Well, you know, I'm one of those. So I moved from Oklahoma to Colorado to Denver area. So I was a Broncos fan when I lived in Colorado, but that was the days of, oh my gosh. Now my mind is going to completely go blank. This is so embarrassing. The the Great, the greatest Broncos player who is now a general manager, John, oh my gosh. Can think of a it'll come to me. But anyway, he, you know, we. Were actually like, yes, thank you. Thank you very much. Elway. Yes, I was a guest. So we were actually, like, winning Super Bowls when I first moved there, so, you know, and then it went, kind of went. Then I became a Peyton Manning fan, and my husband's from Pennsylvania, and he's like, you can't just change your mind about who you support every time we move. And I'm like, but I can't, yeah, why not? So when we moved to Florida, I Michael Hingson  05:26 the Jaguars, jaguars, yeah, yeah, they Lori Osbourne  05:29 just haven't been a great team. And I I watched Mahoney, Mahoney play for Kansas City, and I just fell in love with how he plays and just his style and his leadership, and I just became a Kansas City fan, just because I love watching him. And last season was a little disappointing because he didn't throw as much, but, but, you know, he's, he's amazing, so that's that's my reasoning. Michael Hingson  06:03 So So you you didn't fall in love with Travis Kelsey and try to go steal him away from Taylor Swift before things got serious? Lori Osbourne  06:12 No, no, I was already in love with my current husband. Michael Hingson  06:15 So see, tell him that there are some things and some loves that do transcend location. Lori Osbourne  06:23 There you go. Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, he's so obsessed with football that we I actually included in our marriage vows that I would support him through his two fantasy football teams and a lifetime of football in my future, because I knew I was marrying football when I married him. Michael Hingson  06:46 One of the things that spoils me about sports out here, and it's not so much anymore, but it used to be the case is, I think that here in especially southern California, we had the best sports announcers in the business. We had Vin Scully doing baseball, and I think that it'll be a long, long time before anyone comes up to the caliber of Vince Scully. And there, there are things that they do now that that really messed that up. But Vinnie was a was was the best. We had Dick Enberg, who did football and and other people. And Chick Hearn did basketball. Chick hurr had talked so fast that I don't know how he was able to do it, but I learned how to listen fast because I grew up listening to Chick Hearn new basketball. I love it. So, so I got spoiled on sports, listening to those announcers. I keep up with football from a news standpoint, especially when it gets close to the Super Bowl, so I can decide who I'm going to if anybody for for in the Super Bowl when they have it. Yeah, I do kind of like the Rams, because I live out here and I've always kind of liked them, although I was mad at them when they moved to St Louis for a while, but, but still, they're the Rams. I mean, we'll see what they do this year. I think they've got a good coach, but I by no means am a football expert or anything like that. I keep up though. Lori Osbourne  08:08 Me neither. I, yeah, I kind of joke, you know, my husband will watch like, you know, eight games at once, the red zone or the whatever, and it's flipping around. And I just can't, so I just joke I'm a fourth quarter watcher. On Sunday nights, Monday nights, I'll watch the fourth quarter and because that's where you know if it's gonna happen, that's where it's gonna happen if it's gonna be worth watching. Michael Hingson  08:30 Yeah, well, I'll be interested to see what happens tomorrow, because the Chargers are playing the chiefs in Brazil. Lori Osbourne  08:41 Yes, and I don't, I don't even know if we're going to get to watch it, because, you know, the NFL spread out across all these different platforms now, and if you don't have the platform, you're out of luck. Michael Hingson  08:52 I think it's going to be on TV. It'll be watchable, but it starts at 530 Pacific Time, and I don't quite understand that. If they're doing it live, that would mean it's going to start at nine. Start at 930 in the evening in San Paulo. So I don't know how all that's going to work. We'll see. Lori Osbourne  09:07 Yeah, yeah, we shall see. Yeah, we're I don't know if we're watching tomorrow nights, but my husband's definitely watching tonight, for sure. Well, I Michael Hingson  09:15 don't think there are more games on tomorrow other than that one, so maybe he will. And maybe you actually get to focus and just see one game, Lori Osbourne  09:24 right, right? That's, that's, that's the nice part about the non Sunday games. Usually it's just, Michael Hingson  09:31 well, so you, so you grew up and you, you only lived in California for two years, and then where did you go? Lori Osbourne  09:40 I lived in Norman, that's right, until I was 29 I actually found my birth father when I was 23 and moved to Colorado to get to know him and his family. Michael Hingson  09:55 So you were a diamond. Lori Osbourne  10:00 Not really. I just, he was just never part of my life. Your mom married someone else, yeah, okay, yeah. I always had. My mom just didn't have my dad. And it's, you know, it's been an interesting experience, because, you know, being in my 20s when I met him, and my mom and I were opposite growing up, and I never understood my personality, because she was quiet and passive and wanted to work in the same job her entire life, and I was the opposite. I was vivacious and loud and aggressive and always wanted to be self employed. Then I met my dad and went, Oh, it explained it all, I'm just like him. It's crazy how the you know the genes work for sure, Michael Hingson  10:51 but you got to know him, and the relationship was a good one. Lori Osbourne  10:55 Yeah, yeah, right. We just, he's in Idaho now. We just got back a couple of weeks ago from visiting. I mean, it's been interesting, trying to enter a family, you know, in your 20s is is bizarre. I kind of, I kind of equate it to being an in law, like, I'm not quite all the way in, because I, you know, I didn't grow up with these people. They don't know me. But, yeah, it's been interesting. So where in Idaho, near Coeur d'Alene Sand Point near Michael Hingson  11:25 standpoint, I have a brother in law who lives in Ketchum, in Sun Valley, and who is an avid skier, and has been an avid skier basically his whole life. Now the real big question is, of course, where is your father when it comes to football, Lori Osbourne  11:46 my father does not sit still. Okay? That is, that is one way that we are different. He I joke that he'll probably outlive me. I mean, he lives on 14 acres. I think he just, they just sold 40 Acres. But he doesn't. He never sits still. He He's always going, going, going, working on, you know, he had, he had his business, which he sort of still does. But he works on fences or helps with the does something with the horses or the hay or the, you know, it's just it. He works his plan does not I don't think he the TV when we were there was on music the entire time. Yep. Michael Hingson  12:30 So hardly a person who tends to watch football. Well, that's okay. So you, you grew up in Norman? Did you go to college there or in the area? Lori Osbourne  12:43 I went for a year and then couldn't figure out how to keep paying for it. I honestly didn't even realize financial aid was a thing. So I started in the workforce and became a recruiter, technical recruiter, pretty early in my career. I did that for 12 years, and then started my own recruiting business and got my degree during that time. So I got a bachelor's degree in business administration, 4.0 average while working. Proud of that, but I was in my 30s, and then I got cancer right after that, had colon cancer at 36 which I blame an 18 year abusive, horrible marriage, I think really led to that, but it pushed me To get out of that horrible abuse of marriage. And then a few years later, I met my current husband, and I am the happiest I've ever been, Michael Hingson  13:51 but you also were able to, in one way or another, beat the cancer Lori Osbourne  13:58 I was, yes, it was actually stage one colon cancer. Only had surgery so that one, yeah, didn't even have to have chemo or radiation. And actually, what got me into my current business? I was a when I got divorced, I did this is kind of funny to me. I when I got divorced, I decided I no longer wanted to be straight commission, and because I had gotten a job after after the cancer, and now I'm self employed. And so why? I think I wouldn't want to be straight commission, but it's okay to be self employed, but it's a completely different mindset. You know yourself very much a different mindset. But I was in tech. I moved from recruiting into hands on technology. I did project management, software testing, I looked at websites and helped design websites from a business perspective, but I was never, never a coder, never, you know, did the visual design? Nine and in 2015 I we had just moved to the opposite side of Denver. We had just changed, I had just changed jobs, had a brand new home, and then found out I had a brain tumor. Michael Hingson  15:15 Oh, gosh, yeah, you're just an attention getting person. Lori Osbourne  15:19 That's all you. I know. That's it. I just walk around going, yep, that's it. So, yeah. So I, I ended up leaving the job because it was, it was very traumatic. I ended up having two surgeries. They couldn't remove the tumor. It's part of my carotid artery. It's a meningioma. It's benign, but it's part of my carotid artery, and it was causing my left eye to droop, so they went in to get it off the optical nerve and nicked the carotid and caused a brain bleed. And that brain bleed caused that drooping eye to become a half blind eye. So I ended up, for about a year and a half, I had double vision. I also had found out I had a stroke from it, I was having problems with words and forming, you know, the right words. And I had no tolerance for stress for a long time, so there was no way I was going back to project management in the IT world, right? This wasn't so I literally, I spent about a year recovering and just started messing around, going, Okay, well, what can I do with the talents that I have? And I started building a website on Squarespace, and it was called Health Net, like grandma. And it was just talking about my I lost my mother and my grandmother to cancer at 63 both at 63 and then I had gone through what I went through. And I just wanted to share the stories, you know, the what I've learned from a health perspective. And in doing that, went, wow. Why have I not been developing websites the last 20 years? This is what I should be doing. I love this, and I bet other business owners could really use some help doing this. And that's when my business was born. Michael Hingson  17:20 Wow. How did they discover the brain tumor? Lori Osbourne  17:26 It started with me falling asleep at my brand new job desk. Was I could not hold my eyes open. I actually thought it was an adrenal reaction to leaving a super high stress job to a very boring job, but it was not. They did all these tests. They put me on thyroid medication, which helped, and then my left eye started drooping, like literally within weeks together and and it was funny, because they they sent me to an eye doctor, and the eye doctor sent me to an eye surgeon, and they wanted to do surgery on it. And I'm like, don't you want to figure out why this is happening? Like, I don't want you to touch my eye until you know why my eye is drooping. And my doctor thought that was the craziest thing she'd ever heard. So she goes, Well, have we done an MRI yet? And I said, No, so they sent me for an MRI that day. And lo and behold, not only do you have a brain tumor, but you have had a stroke. Okay. Gosh, you know, she did not want to share that news, those news with me. She was very embarrassed. Probably, well, Michael Hingson  18:43 but you need to know, yeah, and clearly you already had demonstrated that you had an analytical mind, and it would be valuable for you to know, because it would help you in dealing with making decisions, or thinking about what decisions to make going forward, right? Yeah, so you did. So you went through the surgeries and all of that, and what, what happened to your your left eye, Lori Osbourne  19:10 it, it's still mostly blind. I have a sliver of vision that I can't control. So if I go to the eye doctor, they try to get me to look at the chart, and I can't focus it on the chart, and I get very frustrated. I blocked it for the first year. Now my eyes are so it's it's developed its own way of working, so I can't even block it anymore without causing worse headaches than I already have. Bad headaches kind of came out of all of this. So I really just live with it. I live with the headaches, and I ignore it as much as I possibly can and and hope it's improved slightly over. The last 10 years, they told me it would never improve. But, you know, our brains are amazing things, and it's it's trying, but it's still not. I just tell them make the left eye prescription the same as the right eye because it makes no difference. Yeah. Michael Hingson  20:17 Well, so with, with with all that you've you've dealt with, with, with this clearly, you figured out a way to go forward, and you've, now, I assume, used all that happened to you, and you've analyzed it in some way or another, that you have made some decisions about what you want to do with your life, which is namely the whole brand development and web development and dealing with accessibility, which is pretty cool. Lori Osbourne  20:51 Yeah, yeah, I am. Once I discovered that passion and the I honestly never realized I had the creative side of me. I knew I had the analytical I knew I had the project management and tech, but once I realized I actually have a very strong creative side, then websites were the way to go. And it's it's really I can be working on a website for four hours straight and feel no pain, and that that alone tells me I'm doing what I'm supposed to be doing. I love it that much, and I feel like I'm that talented at it. Michael Hingson  21:30 I think you've made a very interesting observation, and one that I relate to very well, which is working commission is one thing, but working for yourself, which, in some senses, is the same, but it's totally different, and you have to have a different mindset to make it work. Lori Osbourne  21:48 Oh, absolutely, yes. I mean, I'm I'm not selling a product for someone else. I'm selling myself, and I am the product, and I have to live by my my values and my mission and my why, which is completely different than selling services for someone else, for straight commission. Michael Hingson  22:12 I have always told my the people who I hired as sales people to analyze and and think about what they do. And one of the things that I did with every person I ever hired was I would say, tell me what you're going to sell. And literally, all but one person said, Oh, we're going to sell the product. This is the product we're selling. This is what it does. But the best sales guy I ever hired, when I asked that question, Said, the only thing I have to sell is myself and my word, and I need you to back me up when I give my word about something, Michael Hingson  22:50 great answer. It was, it was the actual, it was the answer I was looking for. And I said, well, as long as we communicate, and I know what you're going to say, and that's all about trust, I'm going to back you up. And never had an issue. And in fact, he and I worked very well together, because we figured out how my talents in sales and management could augment and accentuate what he did, so that the two of us could work together. And I think that's that's so important, but you're right. The only thing any really good salesperson has to sell is themselves, and you have to be true to your own attitudes. Yes, yes, which is so Lori Osbourne  23:33 integrity is everything. I mean, if you especially as a small business owner, I mean, and I'm in a very small community, and I this. I only lived here since 2018 and it's kind of been shocking to me how how a small community works. But if you do it right, everybody knows your name. If you do it wrong, everybody knows your name. Yeah, it's you know when, every time I get a call because the chamber has referred me again. I just smile, and I'm like, Okay, I'm doing it right, you know? And it's, to me, it's all about integrity. If you, if you say you're going to do something, do it, and if you can't do it, say you can't do it, say you can't do right, or say I'm going to figure it out. Yeah, you know, I didn't. I charged very little my first few years, and I always my first few years, I told clients, I don't know what I'm doing yet, so I'm not charging you for the time that I'm learning. I'm going to charge you for the time that I'm actually accomplishing something. Michael Hingson  24:30 One of the things I always told every again, every salesperson I ever hired is for at least the first year. You're a student. No matter what you think you know and what you know about sales, when you're working with customers, you're a student, ask them questions, really learn from them, because they want you to be successful, even if you don't think they do. And the reality is that, in general, they do want you to be successful, and the more you encourage them to teach you, the better relationship you're going to develop. Lori Osbourne  24:59 Absolutely. And 100% yes. Michael Hingson  25:02 So how long ago did you end up having the brain tumor? Lori Osbourne  25:07 I was diagnosed in August of 2015 So wow, I'm, I'm at exactly 10 years. 10 years. Yeah, I didn't, oh my gosh. September 22 will be my my first surgery dates. There you go. Wow. Right at 10 years Michael Hingson  25:23 See, I'm glad we we help you remember, Lori Osbourne  25:27 I can't, I can't believe that was, like, not even on my mind. I mean, it was actually September 17. Was the first surgery, that's right, and it's the same day as my dog's birthday. And we were just talking about my dog's birthday yesterday, but I didn't even think about the tumor. So well, it's all good Michael Hingson  25:47 a week from next Wednesday. But you know, you you obviously are doing well, well, so how did your your business in the the way you do things and what you do? How did all that change after the surgery, or had you already started down the road of branding and being a branding coach and website development and accessibility? Lori Osbourne  26:10 No, all of this came as a result of all of it. So it literally just grew with me, as I, you know, transitioned into life again, and being able to function mentally and physically, I would just start, you know, working on a little bit of, you know, a couple of websites. The first website I built was from for a realtor that we worked with. We did three different deals with him in two years. He was this great Scottish guy, great personality, and his website was horrific. And I begged him to let me do it. It was a I think we ended up doing 39 pages total, and just read redid the whole thing. He loved it. A lot of it's still in place 10 years later. But I just, I just started building, and then we moved to the area we are now outside Jacksonville, and I found a local networking group and started meeting people and getting introduced to businesses and just slowly built and learned a little bit at a time, and learned a little bit more. And then it was not actually until last year I realized that I have branding skills and talent that I haven't been promoting. I was using the skills and I was building on brand websites, but I didn't say that, and I didn't recognize it as a separate talent from website development. I kind of thought everybody did that, until I realized that that's not true. So I've been doing it, and a lot of it is just, I the natural, just natural talent for color and almost like designing houses. Like I knew I was really good at designing houses, but I didn't recognize that that translated to websites. And so for last, like, year to 18 months, I've really kind of bought into the brand strategy piece of what I offer. Michael Hingson  28:19 Well, how did you develop this concept of authority platforms, and what is it? Lori Osbourne  28:27 So the authority platform is what I'm calling the full package. It kind of started when I got really frustrated with everybody telling me or everybody's an exaggeration, but so many people saying, Oh, you don't need a website. You just need landing pages. And I would try to educate people that landing pages are not enough, but I couldn't put it in the right words, and when I started really looking at it, going, well, landing pages are great, if you have the visibility to get people to the landing page, and if you've built a relationship in a different way, if it's through speaking or through a book or through other types of promotions, then yes, the landing page can help or maybe replace the website. But where that led me was a website alone is also not enough. We need full visibility. We need to be seen in a lot of different ways to establish our authority as experts. So with the authority platform, I'm looking at the brand and understanding the brand, the website, the lead magnet, the funnels, the search engine optimization, and then helping them also have a good CRM to manage all of this, hooking them up with with good speaking coaches or podcast. Opportunities and just looking at it from a full life cycle of being visible and showing that authority online. Michael Hingson  30:10 And how's that gone over? Lori Osbourne  30:14 It's, I'm still building it honestly, the website's absolutely I'm I'm really working on building the collaboration pieces for the rest of it to truly say, Yes, I have the authority platform, the branding packages that I'm offering and the branding pieces that I'm doing are making a significant difference in the quality of the websites I'm building, because I come out of it with a custom GPT that they can use, and I can use that really establishes that baseline for the brand and the bringing in their values, bringing in their communication style, and bringing in their ideal client and how to speak to that ideal client. So the GPT is built around all of that, which is perfect when we're building the content for the website. So I would say, you know, we're 75% of the way there to having my true authority platform. But I'm still building, you know, authority building websites every day. Michael Hingson  31:20 Well, I gather that you don't tend to like to use WordPress. You use Duda as a platform builder and so on. Tell me, I'm curious why and what, and I don't have any any disagreement or or really knowledge to talk intelligently about it. But tell me why you use Duda and what, what it brings. Lori Osbourne  31:44 So my my challenges with WordPress started with my first client in Florida. They there was a nonprofit. They had no idea what they were doing, and I'm like, I I'm techie. I can go in, I can figure it out, and I could not figure out WordPress, and I got very frustrated with it going, how in the world does anybody else do this? So I kind of stayed away from it for a little while, and I was building on Squarespace for a time, and then I discovered Duda. I consider Duda to be the best of Wix and Squarespace. It's very similar. But the things I don't like about Wix, I don't like about Squarespace, Duda has resolved. It's also very customer oriented and SEO oriented and accessibility oriented. So there's a lot of advantages to the platform. The reason I don't support WordPress is I've had too many, too many people come to me with broken websites. Too many WordPress people do not educate their clients that that you have to update the plugins, and they don't. They just leave them and don't offer to do that for them, and it's it's an unnecessary addition that I don't think most people need for their website. There's plenty of things that we can do and do to that we can do exactly like WordPress without the headaches of that extra tech and plugins breaking and security breaking because the plugins are breaking, and it's it just it's too unnecessary, in my opinion. I tried to support WordPress for about a year and a half, and I found that I was not helping my Duda clients because the WordPress was always so much high maintenance. And those were the websites that were going down, and those are the websites that were having issues where my due to clients, their websites were never down, they never had issues. Michael Hingson  33:51 But don't need, but don't you, from time to time need to provide any kind of updates to Duda doesn't. Aren't there as the as the whole website evolves, doesn't, don't you need to find ways to evolve what they are and what they do Lori Osbourne  34:05 on the front end, on the front end, absolutely I mean, but from the back end, from a platform perspective, Duda handles all of that. It's self contained. Got it? I don't have to worry about that. And they're also always adding new features, which is another thing I absolutely love about them there, and I have yet to find, let me rephrase that. I've probably found a couple of things that if I could not duplicate on Duda to match WordPress, it would require code, and I don't code, but I can still achieve the goal of what my clients are looking for. There's nothing that they've said I have to have this that I can't provide. And the offset of not having the worry around the tech is has always been worth it. Michael Hingson  34:55 So the creators of Duda in the background as. They make updates and changes, they go out to everybody who uses it to create their websites automatically. Is that? Is that what happens? Lori Osbourne  35:07 Okay, yeah, it's seamless. Yeah, you don't even, you have no idea that there's even updates being done. It's completely seamless. Michael Hingson  35:15 Yeah, okay, well, I understand that. That makes a lot of sense. What's the one mistake that you find that keeps business owners from really progressing and keeping their websites and them invisible? What's the biggest mistake you see? Lori Osbourne  35:36 Messaging unclear, messaging which, which really goes back to the brand. If you don't understand your brand, you don't understand your why, and you don't know how to express how you solve problems for your ideal client, let me, let me rephrase. If you don't even know your ideal client is and you're trying to speak to them, a lot of people think they sell to everyone, and when you try to sell to everyone, you sell to no one. And if you are trying to speak to the masses from your website, you're going to lose the people you really want to reach. So it comes down to that, that niching down factor and really understanding your ideal client, so that when they hit your website, they immediately know you understand my problem and you can fix it. And it really comes down to that versus I can fix, you know, I can build a website for anybody. Well, then that makes me no different than a website developer down the street. Then it comes down to a price comparison, and then we're just bidding against each other. So you've gotta, you've gotta what makes you special, and what and and your why is a big part of that. Your values are a big part of that. And speaking the right language and that messaging. Michael Hingson  37:03 Can you tell me a story of maybe one customer that you worked with where you can demonstrate exactly what you're talking about here and why it made a difference without mentioning customer names, but the story? Lori Osbourne  37:17 Oh, yeah, um, you know, it's been a while since I did that realtor, but that realtor is still just such a great example, because you the fact that he was from Scotland doesn't necessarily seem significant, but it really does, because, you Know that Scottish accent made him endearing. He was a very professional, good looking guy. And you go out to his website, and it was, I can still see it today. It was like green and this old, funky text, and it, it represented him in no way. And I remember the first thing he told me was, you know, I've got this video where I introduced myself and I went, why in the world is that not on your homepage, like what people need to hear you speak and see you and experience you. He was phenomenal. And we did three deals with him. He was phenomenal at what he did, and that what, you know, if we had just rebuilt his website and just did the video, it would have that alone would have made a huge difference in people knowing who they were working with and how he was different. And another example I can give more recently, I work with a mentor who mentors seven figure coaches on how to work harder, make more money and and do it in less, less investment of your time. And when I took over her WordPress website for for two years, I just kept repeating and rebuilding the same crap, basically. And finally, when I decided to leave WordPress, I said, you know, I really want to start all over. And I realized in that two years, you know, I had not taken the time to really get to know her brand. And when we sat down and really learned what made her special and different, and we were able to capture that in in the website, that the difference in the experience was night and day, you know, before it was just text, and, you know, a little bit of information. She never referred anybody to her website. And now it, you know, opens with a video. She's also a professional speaker. Opens with a video of her speaking. She is very she's a. Ballroom dancer on the side, she's very elite. So we, you know, pulling in things like gold and video, I have a lot of motion on the website with gold moving because it, it, it's that brand of that dancer that, you know, that eliteness of it and it, it's subtle, and it has nothing to do with the messaging side that I just mentioned, but it's still back to the brand and the representing of who you are, who she is, what we're selling, you know, we're selling ourselves. Michael Hingson  40:33 Yeah, well, websites and website developers put all sorts of things out there and that that's not necessarily a good thing. But what are some signs that a business's online presence don't necessarily match their real life expertise? Because I I believe that people see through people who just sort of talk, and I think that that all too often, you get this reaction, oh, they're just talking that isn't what they really believe or that isn't what they really know. So what are some signs that the online presence doesn't match what they really know and what they really are? Lori Osbourne  41:15 Part of it is that that genericness, if you if you can't even say who you are serving, then you're obviously the person you're looking at is obviously not clear about their ideal client. If it's not clear who they are serving, and if it's this just generic message of not in these words, but we're the best use us. You know, there's, there's no detail about what makes them different and how they specifically solve your problem. If the website is completely outdated or generic, that may or may not allude to anything but it, it definitely shows that they don't, are not using their website to show their expertise. The other huge thing, I would say, is testimonials. Every website should have reviews. I mean, what better way to sell ourselves than to have someone else say how we're different, how we operate and why we're the why we're the best. That is huge. If it's all about them, as in the person's website you're looking at, if it's not, if I'm, if I'm getting on a website and they're not even acknowledging what's in it for me and how they're going to solve my problems, then I'm not going to have any confidence that they have any idea how to solve my problems. They haven't even they haven't even talked about my problems. They haven't even mentioned my problems. They're just telling me that they're selling me something, and this is how much it costs, and this is what it's going to do. But I but do you get me? Do you know? Do you understand me? I think all those are it's really important that we are speaking to the ideal client in their language about their problem. Michael Hingson  43:10 I have heard so many times and totally agree with and work to do this myself. Michael Hingson  43:18 The whole concept of when I'm invited to speak, it's not about me. Yeah, I'm invited to speak, but my job is to enhance, to help to make life as easy as possible for the event organizer, to help the event organizer make this, the whole conference, even better than they thought it would be. And and I have to do that because it's not about me, and it should never be about me as such, right? Lori Osbourne  43:48 It's also about your audience and your audience, yeah, so that they know you want them to want to know more. Yeah, that's also the purpose of your website to make people want to know more. Michael Hingson  44:01 Yeah, very true, and it should be that way. And if you're doing it right, you'll also provide more for them to know. Right? Lori Osbourne  44:15 Absolutely. Well, that would be something else that I would say I I always encourage people to give away as much as possible on their website. It if people know that you really want to help me solve my problems, and you're willing to give me something for free that starts a relationship. And that's really, at the end of the day, that's the point of the website. It's not to sell, it's to start a relationship. It's like the first step of dating. We're not getting married yet. We're dating, and if you're if you're giving away a piece of yourself through a video or a download or even a free course. Course, that's it. That's going to endear the audience to to want to come back for more. And even blogs, great blogs will get people coming back for more. And people always go, Well, you know, if I give everything away, I'm not going to make any money. No, you give away what? What doesn't cost you time, but is giving some knowledge so that they want more, and they know that you you get them, and they can trust, you know, like and trust so they can build that, that base for a relationship. Michael Hingson  45:32 Yeah, and it, it makes perfect sense. It is all about building trust. And everything that we do is all about building trust, and the more trust you build, the more loyalty you'll create. Lori Osbourne  45:47 Absolutely, yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson  45:49 So we've talked about website accessibility. What is website accessibility and why is it something that people really should focus on? Why is it important? Lori Osbourne  45:59 That feels weird coming from you, Mike, Michael Hingson  46:03 because I know you are an expert in this, but I preach it, but I preach it all the time, so I want to hear what somebody else has to say, and I want people who are watching and listening to this hear from somebody else other than me. Okay, that's the motivation behind it. Lori Osbourne  46:18 All right. All right. Well, website accessibility is at its core. It's making the website available and usable for everyone, including those with disabilities. So whether it's blindness or inability to use a mouse or you said it earlier, dyslexic, Michael Hingson  46:40 epilepsy, any number of things, right? Lori Osbourne  46:43 So anybody, just like accessibility for a ramp into a store, it's allowing me, from my home, as as a disabled person, to be able to function on your website. And as we know, I believe the stat is 20% of people have some kind of disability. It's also an inclusion. It is a piece of I consider a piece of your marketing, because if you are excluding 20% of the people with your website, why? Why are you doing that? It also builds strong Search Engine Optimization. Because if you look at all of the guidelines for accessibility, they're very similar to the guidelines you need to have in place for good search engine optimization. Google is looking for the exact same things. Yep. So it's it's really just making your website available to everyone Michael Hingson  47:42 well, and the reality is, well, let me ask this question, rather than me just saying it beyond legal compliance. Why should accessibility be a priority in website design? You've kind of alluded to it already. Lori Osbourne  47:56 Yeah, part of what I just said, it's including everyone. It's not excluding 20% of your market, and it's building trust, inclusivity and credibility. It's, it's, and it to me, it's showing that you care. It's, it's very bothersome to me when someone says, Well, I probably won't get sued, so I'm not going to worry about it. Okay? But why do you want to not do these basic things so that everyone can access your website? Well? Michael Hingson  48:33 And also, in reality, it does get back to if you're a website owner, that is, you're a company that has a website, and you recognize that the job of your website is to help people see why you have something they need. The fact of the matter is, do you really want to not make available to 20 or 25% of the population your website, or to put it another way, don't you want to make sure that you are making your information available to everyone? And that's what the real reason for website accessibility is truly all about. The fact of the matter is that it's good business to make your website accessible. Lori Osbourne  49:24 Absolutely, yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson  49:26 What are some high impact changes that you think that website owners can make, to make their websites or to have their websites be more accessible, maybe even just some simple things? Lori Osbourne  49:38 Oh, there are so many simple things. I mean, the easiest thing that so many people miss is adding alt text to images. I mean, it's, and it's one thing I love about Duda, by the way, it they do it with AI and do it for you, and you can edit it. It's so, so wonderful. But it's, it's a simple step. It also is. Great step to even help with SEO, because you can include some keywords there, but that that alt text tells someone that's using a tool that's blind exactly what that image is, and what is the point in putting that image on your website if it's not going to provide any value to those that can't see. I mean that, in my opinion, another thing is the contrast in colors. A lot of people don't understand that contrasting colors has a lot to do with readability, and if you are putting two colors together, I mean, think about it even from a scene person, if you're looking at it and you can't read it. It's not accessible, right? So, you know, have high contrast in the colors of text on anything over it. Don't try to put something over an image that can't be read that just just, don't do it. Skip that. I was just doing this on my website today. I was trying to put an image, and I went, you know what? That's just not going to work. I'm going back to a solid color. It doesn't it's it and it, you know, that's from a business perspective as well. Because even if you're not thinking about accessibility, if someone can't read the text or can't read the button, they're not going to click it. You're not going to read it. They're not going to buy it if they can't read it. So simple little things like that. Those would be the two biggest things I would say. And then just, you know, little additional things like making sure that your website is converting properly to mobile, if it's if it's not, if things are coming off the page, because you didn't bother to look at the mobile side, which is easy to miss on many platforms that can have a huge impact on the scene and those that need the tools or need accessibility pieces that's, you know, commonplace design and very easy thing to fix. Michael Hingson  52:11 It's been a while since I looked at this website, and I think it's not quite what it used to be, but for a while, my favorite website, absolutely. My favorite website for accessibility was the website of the National Security Agency, nsa.gov, Michael Hingson  52:31 of all the websites in the entire world. The reason I liked it is that not only did they have all text on images if you were using a screen reader and you moved your cursor over an image, you suddenly got a very detailed description of that image, like you. Michael Hingson  52:55 You moved your cursor where you used your screen reader to move over the American flag. It would say the American flag on a flagpole hanging in front of the opening to the building of the National Security Agency. Yada yada yada. I mean, it's just everything was there. It was the most amazing website. I don't know that it's that way anymore. I haven't looked at it in a little while, but I was very impressed with how much they did and relative and relevantly and appropriately so to make sure that everything on that website was totally usable. And a lot of people could say, Well, why do I have to do that? And the answer is, you have to do it for the same reason that you want to make your website accessible, if you will, for people who don't happen to have a disability. The reality is, all those things that you put on the website for people who can see them and so on, like pictures and so on, if you don't make those things accessible, you're doing a disservice to a significant amount of the population. Whereas, if you do it all, then while you can look at the picture, I can hear all about it, and that's the way it ought to Lori Osbourne  54:10 be well. And there's so much I mean to me that is an opportunity to to even go further with the folks that need the screen reader. Because, I mean, when I'm and I mentioned that dude, it does it with AI, but they, they do it too generically. When I go in, I'm doing exactly what you're talking about. I want to, I want to build the presence of the picture. This is who they're doing, who it is from the business, and this is what they're doing, and this is what you know, this offer is talking about that's an extra sales opportunity right there. For those that you know, need the alt text, why not use that? Michael Hingson  54:49 And also, I'm amazed at how many people may look at pictures and so on and look at words and not really pay attention to them very well, because they just kind of skip over it. So the more you can do to attract people's attention to the right things. Is relevant too. I'm amazed at how many people just gloss over so much. Lori Osbourne  55:09 Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, this kind of become our society, yeah, short attention span for sure. You know, I want to mention two videos. I really feel like people need videos on their website, especially of themselves, because it helps people get to know you. But you need to have that closed captioning and again, dialog. Michael Hingson  55:33 You need to have dialog so that a person who can't see the video will also know what the video shows. Lori Osbourne  55:41 Explain, explain what you mean by that a little bit more. Michael Hingson  55:44 So you go to a website, and there's a video, and you click it, and you start hearing music, and that's all you hear, even though, on the screen you see a person walking down the street, walking into somebody's store, finding a product they want and buying it. But if you don't have a way to make that information audibly accessible to people who can't see the images and who don't see the videos, then what good is it you haven't made it accessible? Yes, closed captioning works for deaf or hard of hearing people, but again, there's so much more that needs to be done. Wow. Lori Osbourne  56:25 Thank you for sharing that, Mike. You just gave me more to think about on videos. Michael Hingson  56:31 One of my favorite commercials to pick on today, and for the longest time, I had no idea at all what it was about. It starts out with music, and somebody says something like, so what do people over 60s show and bring out today? And they talk about love and they talk about something else, and suddenly the sound goes dead, and all you hear for the next 20 seconds or more is this high pitched whistle sound. Ooh, yeah. And I finally got somebody. I finally was in a room with somebody when I heard the beginning of this, and I said, What is it showing? And all it was showing, and what, apparently it is, is a promotion for people getting the RSV vaccination. Lori Osbourne  57:19 Oh, right. Oh, I do know what commercial you're talking about, yes, but text just goes on the screen. Michael Hingson  57:26 RSV, RSV, RSV. But there's nothing that says what that is at all, period, Lori Osbourne  57:33 because they're trying to make the point that you're that your life shuts down when this hits. But yeah, for someone like you, that's completely worthless. Michael Hingson  57:41 Not only does my life not shut down, my life gets very active, and I want to go off and find those commercial designers and show them what true accessibility really ought to be about. But that's another story. But yeah, Lori Osbourne  57:53 yeah, exactly, wow. I mean, I think about you every time I see that commercial, those rare times I see commercials, Michael Hingson  58:05 what's one of the what's one of the myths about branding and websites that you could erase, that you really wish you could race forever? Lori Osbourne  58:18 I probably told you to ask me that question, and now I'm stumped by how I want to answer it. I think, I think I know where I wanted to go with that. Yes, a lot of people think branding is just colors and fonts, and honestly, when I first started doing it, I thought it was just colors and fonts. And I kind of go, I went into Okay, colors and fonts, and then consistency, okay, we want to make sure we got we're consistent with our colors and fonts across everything that we do that's that's branding, that's visual branding. But real branding is Our Story. Is who we are, what we stand for and who we serve. It's the package of everything around what we're selling, back to selling ourselves and really understanding this package and making that consistent across everything. And consistency is huge, in my opinion, when it comes to branding, if you have a different header image or marketing image on every single thing you do and there's no consistency in the look, then you're not going to be memorable. You. I can't help you see this, Mike, but anyone that does go out to anything of mine, I have a very consistent image that was used to build my logo, and it's on everything that I do. I also wear very bright, colorful glasses. Everything I do is very bright and colorful, and it's memorable when people see me and they see my glasses, it can be three years later and they go. I don't remember your name, but boy, I remember those glasses. You know, it's, it's, and that's part of my branding. When people say, I love your your glasses, I go, thank you. It's part of my branding. Yeah. So it's a, it's an overall everything about you. When people describe me, they usually describe me as bright and colorful, like, that's, that's one of the first things that comes to their their mind, and then they it translates to energy, because they think bright, colorful energy. So it's, you know what branding really is, is, what do people say about you when you're not in the room? Michael Hingson  1:00:30 Yeah, that's, that's a good that's what it is. Well, if there is a business owner who is in our audience today who feels overwhelmed by their digital presence. What would you suggest is the first step they should take to change that? Lori Osbourne  1:00:47 Well, the the first thing I would love to see anyone do is sign up for a visibility review or audit with me, so that we can look at your presence and talk about it, and I can give you some very specific suggestions for how to improve your online visibility. If you're wanting to do something on your own and you're you're trying to figure out where to start, sit down and look at first, your your homepage, in your first line of every bit of your marketing and ask yourself, does it say who I serve and how I serve them, and the problems that I solve. Because every ounce of your marketing needs to say that immediately you have less than eight seconds when someone hits your website. And there's all kinds of some people say three, some people say 10s and 15. I just leave it at eight. Do eight or eight or less seconds on your website. So start there is my messaging clear? And then look at your website overall and does it represent me and the message I want people to see. We can go into a whole lot more about it being up to date and everything else, but that's where I would start, right there. Michael Hingson  1:01:58 So how do people reach out to you to get your help to deal with all of this. Lori Osbourne  1:02:02 Well, you can obviously go to my website, which is biz bolster.com, B, I, Z, B, O, L, S, T, E, r.com and I believe you will be sharing a link to that visibility audit. Just sign up for that or a free strategy session. But I encourage the visibility audit, because it literally takes about an hour of my time to check out everything about you and then share that with you. So this is an investment that I'm willing to give you to help you all understand how you show up online, and then what to do about Michael Hingson  1:02:45 it, biz, bolster.com, I hope people will do that, and they can reach out and contact you through that website. Lori Osbourne  1:02:53 Yes, click on, let's chat, and it gives you all the all the calls that you can sign up for in my calendar, and I would absolutely love to speak to anybody that has questions or wants some direction. Michael Hingson  1:03:07 Well, cool. Well, I really appreciate you being here today and spending so much time talking about all this, and I hope people will take it to heart. Wherever you are listening. Reach out, biz, bolster.com and get some insights and get some help to improve the website the web world, because only about 3% of all websites are really accessible today, which means there are a whole lot that are not, and there is no real excuse for that being the case. So reach out and Michael Hingson  1:03:41 you can get all the help that you need. I'd love to hear from you, to hear what you think about today's podcast. Please feel free to email me at Michael H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We value your ratings and your reviews a lot, and I but I do want to hear from you. I want to hear what your thoughts are. Also, if you know of anyone who might make a good guest for unstoppable mindset, Lori, including you, would really appreciate you introducing us, because we're always looking for people who have great stories to tell, and today has certainly been one of my favorite podcast recordings in a long time, and that's because we really did have fun, and I think we accomplished a lot and we learned a lot. So I want to thank you, Lori, once again, for being here and for being a part of unstoppable mindset. Lori Osbourne  1:04:35 Thank you, Mike. It has definitely been a pleasure. I've enjoyed talking with you a lot. Michael Hingson  1:04:42 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

What happens when physical strength becomes a lifelong tool for service, resilience, and purpose? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with Osvaldo Aponte, a Puerto Rico–born personal trainer and military veteran whose journey blends discipline, movement, and mental toughness. Osvaldo shares how growing up in a close-knit community shaped his view of strength, how the Army reinforced resilience and leadership, and why fitness must support life rather than control it. From kettlebell training and biomechanics to recovery after a life-altering bike accident, this conversation explores physical capability as a foundation for confidence, service, and long-term well-being. You’ll hear why consistency beats intensity, how strength builds trust in yourself, and what it really means to live with an unstoppable mindset. Highlights: 00:46 – Learn how growing up in Puerto Rico shaped a lifelong connection to movement, community, and discipline. 08:29 – Hear why joining the military became a gateway to structure, confidence, and opportunity. 14:48 – Discover how early physical preparation made the demands of basic training feel natural. 30:42 – Learn how a near-fatal bike accident forced a clear decision about purpose and priorities. 34:39 – Hear why strength is more than muscle and becomes a mindset for life and service. 53:31 – Discover the long-term habits that make people resilient, adaptable, and truly unstoppable. About the Guest: Osvaldo “Os” Aponte is a strength and movement educator, U.S. Army veteran, and lifelong martial artist committed to helping people build resilient bodies and minds through intelligent training. Originally from Puerto Rico and now based in San Diego, Os has worked as a personal trainer since 2005 and currently serves as a Team Leader for StrongFirst, a global school of strength known for its rigorous standards and elite-level instruction. He is also the author of Iron Core Basic Training Pamphlet 10-5**, a deep dive into mastering the one-arm push-up.** Os blends a rich and diverse background in movement: he’s a former contemporary dancer who toured internationally, a Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist (CSCS), and a credentialed expert in both Z-Health and functional gait analysis. His training approach fuses the art and science of performance—combining hard-earned grit with cutting-edge neuroscience, and traditional strength methods with precision mobility and assessment tools. At the heart of Os’s work is a passion for helping others unlock their potential, no matter their age or ability. He has taught and led more than 20 official StrongFirst workshops and certification events, and regularly collaborates on podcast, print, and video content for educational platforms. His approach is deeply client-centered, always focused on real-life application, long-term durability, and purposeful, personalized progress. Os earned his bachelor’s degree from San Diego State University and begins his Master’s in Kinesiology at Point Loma Nazarene University in the fall of 2025. His journey—shaped by military service, cultural pride, academic drive, and a lifetime of movement—is a testament to resilience and reinvention. From the powerlifting platform to the dance stage, he brings a unique perspective to every room he enters. His mission is to empower others to move better, live stronger, and stay in the game—for life. Ways to connect with Osvaldo**:** Link to Os’ website, The Iron Core Way https://www.ironcoreway.com/ Link to Os’ StrongFirst Instructor profile https://www.strongfirst.com/instructors/united-states/osvaldo-aponte.0013700000NZVD3AAP/ Link to Os’ book on the Strong and Fit Website https://strongandfit.com/collections/daily-deal/products/iron-core-and-the-four-chambers-by-os-aponte Link to Os’ Eventbrite workshop schedule https://www.eventbrite.com/o/osvaldo-aponte-58809282353 Link to New York Times Article https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/12/well/move/kettlebells-weight-training.html?smid=url-share About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:17 Well, hello everyone, and I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset. We're glad that you're here, wherever you happen to be. Hope you're having a good day. Today, we get to talk to Osvaldo Aponte, who is a personal trainer. He's a veteran. He offers a lot of, I think, interesting life lessons that we'll get to talk about as we go through today's podcast. But he's a he's a pretty interesting guy, and I'm not going to give it away. So, Osvaldo, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Osvaldo Aponte  01:57 Thank you so much, Michael, it is a pleasure to be here, and I'm looking forward to sharing this conversation with you. Speaker 1  02:02 Well, I'm glad that that you're here. I'm looking forward to it. You started out in Puerto Rico, and you're now what San Diego, Osvaldo Aponte  02:08 that's correct, sir. So Speaker 1  02:12 Osvaldo isn't all that far from where I live, up in Victorville. So we could, if we really had strong arms, we could throw paper airplanes at each other, but, but I might, I might do better at that, because for me, it's all downhill. But you know, nevertheless, well, we're, we're glad you're here. Why don't you tell us a little about the early Osvaldo growing up and all that, Osvaldo Aponte  02:38 with pleasure. Yeah. See, you know, growing up in Puerto Rico is really special thing, because you really get that small town vibe. And while that's possible in the United States, one thing that I very quickly realized when I started to visit family that lived in the States as a teenager or when I joined the Army, is that there's a big difference of being someone who grows up in a small town versus a large city or a very urbanized type of area. And it goes down to, you know, your the way that you dress, the music that you listen to, even like your values can be affected by this stuff. And so Puerto Rico is 100 miles long, 35 miles wide, 3.7 million people live there. It's pretty dense, and there's a real sense of, like, brotherhood there, you know, people like, I remember being a child and being able to just go outside and play with my friends until the, you know, the street lights come up, and the other parents would look out for you within, you know, the community, you know, and you your parents always knew where You were, and there was a real sense of wholeness, wholesomeness about that that really allowed you to just be a little bit more free and just embrace life in a different way than my counterparts who grew up, perhaps in like, let's say New York City. I remember visiting New York City as a teenager and just being like, wow. Like, this is a very different environment. So that was a really cool part about growing up there. In addition to that, you know, the island really lends itself to being physically active, which I guess is that, you know, a lot of what we're going to talk about today, but you know, one of our favorite things to do was just to start going down the road on a hike and hit a river, you know, hit a swimming hole or something like that. And this was like something that we did on the regular, and it became such a part of our daily lives, you know, like we did it pretty regularly, that as you start to grow up, you maintain this habit of having physical activity be part of your day. So from a very early age, you know, where I was grew up was really already influencing me and pushing me in that direction. Speaker 1  04:39 Yeah, I I grew up in a small town, actually, about 55 miles west of here, Palmdale, California, and it was pretty rural. Michael Hingson  04:51 But there, I think people also tended to watch out for each other a fair amount. In my case, I was more of an oddity, so I'm. Um, people didn't know how to deal with me. I rode a bike around the neighborhood, and my parents got phone calls because I was riding a bike around the neighborhood, and people would call and they say, Well, your kid's out riding a bike. And my dad would go, Well, yeah, okay, no, no, we're not talking about the one who can see. We're talking about the blind one. And my dad said, well, so did he? Did he hit anybody? No. Did anybody hit him. No, did he? Did he get hurt and all that? And finally, the neighbors would just hang up because they couldn't deal with the fact that my dad wasn't worried about a blind kid riding a bike. That probably wouldn't have happened nearly as much in Chicago, where I was born and we lived for five years. But I don't, you know, I don't know. I learned to listen, and that's what it was really about. And my parents were willing to be open and let me, Speaker 1  05:53 kind of stretch and grow. But I think in overall, people were curious, and I think overall, and my brother had a lot of friends, and so I made friends. It worked out pretty well. So I understand what you're saying. Yeah, it certainly is different in in New York City or places like that, where it's such a talk about really dense population, and you may make a few friends, but it's really a lot different. Osvaldo Aponte  06:21 I think that if you had been in my town, not only were you ridden that bike, but we would have been encouraging to write a some roller skates, skateboard and a few other things, because people were pretty daring that there, Speaker 1  06:33 yeah, well, and I did roller skate and and all that, I am not there, but I Did ice skate once, and I ice skated for about an hour and a half, but actually fell and sprained my ankle as we were going off the ice at the end of the day. So haven't ice skated since. I thought that that was a little bit different, but I roller skated. I had fun with that. My favorite thing to do, especially when I got into college, was playing darts. I used weights. I love, I love weighted darts. I don't like the little flimsy darts. I like bigger, stronger weighted darts. But my biggest claim to fame is I got three triple 20s on one throw of three darts once. So you know, I know how to play darts. Osvaldo Aponte  07:18 We have a some darts here that we use. In fact, this last weekend for Labor Day, we had a few friends over, and we use them. We love them. You know, one thing that I like to do with darts, Michael, to share this with you, is to throw both right handed and left handed. And that goes back to my neural training, because it's really good for your brain to be able to do things like both ways. Speaker 1  07:36 Yeah, I was right handed. I never really did try left handed. I'm sure I could have learned it, but it's been a long time since I played Dart so I'm going to have to get a board. Do it again sometime. I had a nice horsehair dart board. It was great. I love it. Yeah. So when you so you how long did you live in Puerto Rico? Osvaldo Aponte  07:59 I was 21 when I left. I mean, I visited the United States, like for summers and things like that, to go visit my family. I had an aunt that lived in New York City who I adore. Her name is Elsie, and her son, rubinel. He and I share a lot of like things in life, including being part of the military. But no, we were kind of close in age. I was a little older, but we got along really well, and that's why they would send me to go visit him and, you know, just get the life experience girl, you know, learn a little English and all that stuff. But I was in Puerto Rico until I was 21 and that's when I joined the Army. Speaker 1  08:31 So, did you go to college after high school? Osvaldo Aponte  08:35 No, so I went. I went to the army at 21 I was trying to go to go to college, but it was really difficult for me, you know, with like, just the way that I grew up, in my finances and things like that, yeah, wasn't easy. So I ended Speaker 1  08:49 up, like, so after high school, did you work or what? Osvaldo Aponte  08:52 Yeah, I worked briefly at multiple jobs. I worked at foot Lacher was one job that I had, another job that I had was in a in a factory that they make gowns for graduation and students. That was a really fun one, because this is, this is a cool story. So they had this really high racks. And sometimes, you know, they would look at the inventory sheet and go like, Oh, you know, we have some of those, but they're all the way up there. And while I was working there, I was like, you know, nimble and good enough with my body where I could climb all the way up and bring this stuff down. And they love that Speaker 1  09:26 a tall enough person to do that, huh? Osvaldo Aponte  09:29 Well, more like I could climb like spider man. Speaker 1  09:32 Okay, so what made you decide to go into the military? Osvaldo Aponte  09:38 I always had a desire to go because I remember young men that left my town with the military, and then they would come back a few years later, and they just looked so different. They look really fit. They look really sharp. If you were lucky enough to meet one of these guys out of, like, a family party, and they were wearing their, like, Class A uniform, their dress uniform. It was really impressive and cool to see. And then you would sit down and talk to them and start talking to you about, I went to Germany, I went to Korea, I went here, I went there, I went everywhere. And it was just, like, very inviting for a young person to think, like, oh my god, like, I can go and do this, which has a very, you know, kind of like a lot of history to it, you know, my, my my grandfather served in the Korean War. And, you know, there was some history there. And then the recruiters, they would come to school and talk to us, and I always thought, like, man, that would be really cool. And you know, to be honest with you, there are not many ways for a young person from Puerto Rico, at least where I was a young person, to get out of there. You know, it's not like opportunities were just raining down and being tossed at you, like, Hey, you want to travel the world. Let's do this. But that was one that was fairly accessible. And so, you know, between the allure, you know, of the potential awesome life that I could have, like those guys that I met, the recruiters, painting a very rosy picture of the military, even, like commercials on TV, because you know how it is, yeah, like the army makes, like, really cool commercials, you know, directed at the Youth so that we would join and, you know, I got to tell you, Michael, I loved it. I'm so glad that I joined the military. Speaker 1  11:09 Well, so I'm curious, in general, you describe the environment of Puerto Rico and so on. Do you think it's different today, or is it still pretty much the same for kids growing up there now, I think Osvaldo Aponte  11:22 it's probably a little bit harder, because opportunities are even more scarce these days. There are a lot of people down there with bachelor's degree, master's degree and even doctor's degree that can't find jobs. And this is why you have such a large population of Puerto Ricans in the United States, because there's just not a whole lot of opportunity. It's a beautiful land, and this is great environment, but, but economically speaking, there are a lot of limitations and obstacles that people have to jump through and or over, and it makes it challenging to stay there. Speaker 1  11:50 Yeah, yeah. Well, I guess I can understand that, and certainly there have been a lot of challenges over the last few years. Yep, that that doesn't help a lot either, so, but I appreciate what you're saying, and hopefully, over time, things will level out and maybe get a little bit better. But, yeah, it's, it's really difficult when you got so many people in such a small area. Osvaldo Aponte  12:15 Yeah, I think that's a big part of it, right? Like, just too many people, not enough resources, that's step one. Speaker 1  12:20 Yeah. Well, so how has your cultural background affected the way you approach training, discipline and service? You think that's had an effect from being from Puerto Rico? Osvaldo Aponte  12:36 I do. I think that there's a sense of pride in being capable, physically capable, where I come from, in that culture, it starts as even as early and as rudimentary as your uncles, your the male figures, even the male figures in your life, are always encouraging you to stand out for yourself. That's a big deal in my culture, right? And there's a certain sense of physicality that goes with that. But it's not just that, right? It's, you know, like, when you're learning to take, like, stand up for yourself, I think it really instills in you respect for others as well, right? Because that's, there's, that's the other side of that, like coin, it's like, you're not going to insult anyone, but you also are not going to allow anyone to insult you, and so instills discipline. In that sense, it's like, I think we're inclined to act like children, but most of the education that I got from both the male and female figures in my life was to be respectful and to be a figure of strength within the community so that you can be the person that stands between two friends say, Hey guys, like, Let's not do this right now. We don't need to fight. Let's talk it out, or whatever. And that that requires certain level of courage and actual physical presence. If you're a very weak, weak person, you're not going to do that very effectively. You can, but it's probably not the most effective thing. So just from that perspective, is very ingrained in the culture that you know being being a good member of your community means that whenever you have to, you can pick up something heavy and carry it somewhere, or that you can, you know, swim from danger. You know that you can run out of danger, that you can fight your way out of a corner, or something like that. And, you know, crazy as it sounds, it was something that from a very early age would start to get kind of put into us. And then from there, obviously, if you want to maintain that later as you get older, then you must have some kind of like physical practice that will do that. Luckily for us, you know, sports are huge in our in our country, so boxing, baseball, volleyball, basketball, I guess. Now soccer is huge in Puerto Rico. It wasn't when I was there, but it's getting bigger all over, I guess, yeah, I guess, right, like that. We're gonna have it. I think next year, the FIFA World Cup is coming to the United States, which is cool 2026 so you. Yeah, like, you just grow up in a very physical environment no matter what. And then, you know, when you're talking about this poor, more rural towns, you know, we didn't have a car forever, so if you wanted to go anywhere, you have to walk. And that, again, it requires that you have a certain level of resilience and determination, and that you're okay with being sweaty and a little bit tired, you know. And then there's a lot of hills, so you got to do so, you know, sometimes our environments, right? They shape how we turn out. Right? I mean, they say mountain people tend to be a little tougher, you know, so, so I think there was a whole lot of that going around, you know, that that really shapes you into wanting to be a physically fit person or person that that has discipline in order to to accomplish the daily life. Because, you know, can't do it without it. Speaker 1  15:46 How do you think that that upbringing helped or affected you when you joined the military? Osvaldo Aponte  15:55 Well, it's almost, it was almost like preparation, right? I remember when I got there, you know, a lot of kids hated doing physical training, where I loved it. I that was my favorite part of basic training, was doing the physical training, the running, the push ups, just all the drills that we learned and when, when we did the obstacle course and basic training, my battle buddy and I ran up after we finished it. We ran up to the drill sergeant and asked him if we could do it again. And he called us crazy and told us that we could. Speaker 1  16:27 I was gonna say, I'll bet your drill sergeants thought you guys were crazy. Osvaldo Aponte  16:31 He was, he was like, You guys are crazy, but go ahead whatever, you know. And so that was kind of like the soldier that I was from, you know, from basic training. I just love the physical part of it, because it was the part that I could feel competent in, right, you know? And the one thing that I didn't had was, like, I had a really hard time with English, right? Because up to that point, I could read it, I could hear it and understand it to a certain level, but conversational English in a very stressful environment, like basic training with some regional differences, like you have a sergeant from Louisiana or someone from Georgia or someone from Texas, mostly may mean like Southern states here, but those were the harder accents to discern and and so that was a challenge in itself, right? So for me, you know, having grown up so so close and comfortable with physicality in any situation really had prepared me to be a perfect fit to be a soldier. Speaker 1  17:27 And how long were you in the military? Osvaldo Aponte  17:30 Six and a half years. Wow, the June of 1997 through I my last was January 15 of 2004 which happened to be my birthday. Happy birthday. You're out of the military. Speaker 1  17:47 You said January, 16, 15th, 15th. Okay, well, so what rank Did you exit the military holding I Osvaldo Aponte  17:56 exited us at e5 promotable, a sergeant. And it was amazing. I loved every minute Speaker 1  18:02 of it. How come you you left the military? Osvaldo Aponte  18:07 You know, a lot of the people that I work with, including my superiors, always encouraged me to go to school. They were like, You know what sergeant? You're great at this. I think you can go on to be a First Sergeant. I think you'd be a great drill sergeant one day, but, but it will be a waste of talent if you didn't, like give yourself a chance to attend college. And I did while I was in the military. I tried to attend, like every, you know, not every semester, because sometimes the job is, you know, that's the more important part. So you got to do that. But if I could swing it, I would attend community college and take class there. But it became clear to me that if I really wanted to get a degree, I was going to have to get out and just do that, you know, just go full head head on into that. And so that was part of it. My first, like, four years were awesome. When I did my first re enlistment for another two and a half and I knew that I was going to Korea. I was really excited, because of, you know, Korea is the home of Taekwondo, who is martial art that I grew up practicing. It was, in fact, the first martial art that I ever did. And so the prospect of going there and studying there was, like, pretty cool. And just, you know, going to Asia in general, as a kid from Puerto Rico, that sounded amazing. And then I went there, and I did the assignment. And it was my favorite assignment of all the ones that I had. Korea was my favorite. And then when I came back, I went to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, the home of the airborne. And that was a different beast altogether. It was, it was a very different army that I came back from Korea too, and something just, you know, kind of clicked in me and said, like, it's time, it's time to go ahead, if you, you know, it's also a matter of time. You know, if you hit 10 years in the Army, basically, you have a choice to make. Like at that point, it's like, and one more enlisted for me would have been about that time, right? Three or four enlistment. And then at that. Point you better stay for life. So it was like, if I'm gonna do it, this is the time to do it. So I did. Speaker 1  20:06 So you went back to college. Osvaldo Aponte  20:09 So at that point, when I came home, I came back to California. I didn't know if I was gonna be able to stay here or not, but I ended up staying here and attending San Diego City College, and then they had a transfer program that took me to San Diego State. And you know how that goes? I bought a house, bought a car, met a girl, and now it's, you know, all those years later. Speaker 1  20:31 So what made you co decide to stay or move to California? Osvaldo Aponte  20:36 So San Diego was my very first duty station, which is really weird, because San Diego is known to be a naval base, yeah. However, the job that I had in the army that was, it was the designation was 91 Romeo, which is veterinary food inspector. And that job supports all the other branches. They support the Air Force, the Marines, the Navy, the Coast Guard, and we didn't have Space Force back then, no, and, and so I was stationed at Naval base because we were supporting their mission. And you know, one of my loves growing up was skateboarding. And I remember being here and somebody seeing a poster or something I had in the barracks, and somebody was like, Dude, you like skateboarding? I'm like, Dude, I love it. And he goes, like, do you know that? And he started to name off names of all these old skateboarding legends, and they all live, like, up the street in Encinitas, you know, yeah. And so I ended up going to one of my childhood idols shop, Mike McGill, and, you know, bought the board, and I have it framed somewhere in my house. And, you know, he signed a poster for me and bought the shirt, and it was really cool. You know, I just never even imagined that that would be possible. But after spending so much time here, I made a lot of friends. Kind of, you grow a little bit of roots in the community, and then it just seems like an organic and normal thing to just kind of, yeah. Why not? You know. Speaker 1  21:56 And there you are. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So what did you get your degree in? Osvaldo Aponte  22:03 So I got my degree in accounting. Everyone always asked me, like, Oh, so you're a numbers guy. And I'm like, Well, not exactly, like, honestly, Michael, the reason why I got an accounting degree was because I remember thinking, you know, like, if you really want to understand the nuts and bolts of business, like study accounting, and I read that in many articles over two years, you know, Wall Street Journal, New York Times and things like that. But there was one article that I read, and it may have been in a fitness magazine, and it was talking about the longevity of coaches, or personal trainers, which was an emerging field at the time. There were some that were very, very successful, but, you know, the average lifespan for a personal trainer, it's like two years, and I have not been in the industry for 20 so I am a survivor. And you know, I think the advice that I got from the article that said, if you if you want to understand how to be successful with your gym, that you need to have some level of understanding of business, some education in it. And so there is that. There was that angle, right? Like say, Okay, so I'm really good at this stuff. I know it well. You know, nobody has to force me to open up a anatomy book and read it. But am I really going to open up a financial accounting book and learn how to do the books or whatever? So I went that route. That's That was one reason. The other reason was that I really, truly believe that to live a full life, you got to challenge yourself and do things that maybe they're not like the ideal fit for you, but that they would be a good challenge that's attainable, right? Nothing like it's impossible, right? But something that you can do and accomplish, but that will truly challenge you. And I found that that was going to be it, and I was correct. Attending the Charles W landam School of Accountancy at San Diego State was one of the hardest things I've ever done, and I'm so proud of it. I just remember I lived in the library. We were always there, which you're probably familiar with from some of our other conversations so you told me what, what you studied, and, you know, I just remember Friday nights, everybody was like, hey, Ozzy, going out. I'm like, No, I'll be in the library studying, you know, but that's good. I think that kind of, like, that kind of discipline and like, really, like tough kind of, like, environment of learning really shapes you, and it gives you that. It gives you the discipline that's necessary to succeed in life. I feel, you know what I mean. So that was a value added to me in addition to the degree. And so I'm glad that I went that route. It was really hard, but Speaker 1  24:34 I did it. So what did you do once you got the degree? Osvaldo Aponte  24:38 Well, the logical thing, at least in my head, was like, Well, you got to get some experience. You can't just have this degree. You can't just have this degree up on the wall. And the truth is, I enjoyed it. I really did, you know, I went out in the field and I applied for so many jobs, and I graduated in 2011 which is was a really bad year to graduate, because there's a economic. Downturn, but jobs were not as really readily available as they had been in even like the last two years. And so finding a job was really hard. And finally, landed a tax internship, which was fantastic. I worked for this very nice gentleman named Charles W Kelly, and he was from West Virginia, and he lived in San Diego most of his life, CPA guy, and just wonderful experience. It was really, really cool. Then I ended up getting a job for a a leasing company. And if you know anything about leases is that they have this very interesting accounting that goes along with it. So I was all excited about that, because I just learned all about lease accounting in school. I wanted to put it to good use, so I went there for a little bit. They ended up joining the Office of the Inspector General, and I got sent to Texas to do that because of the if you're going to travel the country and do inspections, being in Dallas is convenient for flying, right? It's like a big hub. So I went to Dallas for that job, which, you know, I never thought I would, but I really love Dallas. And, you know, that Job was super cool. Then I got recruited to come back to San Diego. Did property accounting here for a little bit. Did construction accounting, did Public Company Accounting, that was with a big insurance broker. That was my favorite one, because from my window in the building, I could see my barracks room that I used to stay at when I was stationed. And I remember when I was at 32nd looking downtown and seeing that building is the Merrill Lynch building. It used to be the Bank of America. Oh no, I'm sorry. It was the Merrill Lynch now it's the Bank of America, and thinking, one day I'm gonna have my accounting degree and I'll be over there working. And you know what? It happened, and Speaker 1  26:41 that was pretty cool. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Now, when you moved to Texas, were you married by then? Osvaldo Aponte  26:48 I wasn't, but I was in a very serious relationship, but my wife had gone to grad school, also in West Virginia, in a place called Roanoke. Roanoke, yeah. What is the name of that school? Hollins. Hollins Hollins University. Okay, so there was a really fantastic master's program there that my wife kind of came across. And, you know, I was about to graduate San Diego State, and she was like, you know, what should we do? And I was like, You should totally do it. I was so supportive in her going to grad school, and that meant that we're going to be a part for quite a while, but, but she went, and we know, we didn't put anything on it. We were like, listen, let's, let's just you go, you do your thing, and if you come back and work together again, great. It's not, you know, we're not going to be upset about it. But turns out, she went, came back, met me in Dallas, and then we came to San Diego together. Speaker 1  27:37 What did she get? Her Master's in Osvaldo Aponte  27:40 Fine Arts dance, ah, yeah. So she also went to San Diego State, actually, for her undergrad, and when we first met, that's where she was going. And then she went to Hollins for her Master's in Fine Arts with dance, dance concentration. Speaker 1  27:52 Now, you've done some dancing, right? 27:54 I have, Speaker 1  27:57 but you don't have it. You don't have a degree in it, but that's okay. Osvaldo Aponte  28:00 No, I don't Well, I met Erica, who's my wife, in in in the dance company that I dance for, which was called module, a dance collective. And, yeah, I was always impressed with her skills. She was she's such a fine and like, precise mover, and she moves with this the strength and this weight and this precision that I don't see a lot of artists, and I always loved it. And so, you know, at first it was just like, hey, can you teach me this and that? And just always trying to pick her brain on technical things about dancing, because that was a beginner dancer. What the only reason why I got to do this, Michael, to give you a better picture, is because of my martial arts training. So you know, if you're flexible and you can lift girls at that time, at least, you pretty much in the company, as long as you're willing to go do all the rehearsals and all that stuff, which I was and, you know. And to my credit, I trained very hard for those years that I dance. I was taking class all the time. I rehearsed religiously, and everyone laughed at me because I never called it rehearsal. I called it practice. And, you know, it was like the sports terminology and art world, and people were like, What are you doing? I'm like, I'm practicing. I'm like, okay, okay, buddy, but, but, yeah, I really enjoyed it, and that's where I met her. Speaker 1  29:17 Wow. Well, that's cool. So how long you guys been married now? Osvaldo Aponte  29:20 So we've been married for nine years, but together for 1919, years, we went together. Speaker 1  29:25 Yeah, yeah. Well, that's cool. And what does she do now? Does she dance? Osvaldo Aponte  29:30 She's a dance teacher. Okay, that's cool here in San Diego, and she produces shows. Every once in a while, she'll produce a show and bring it to San Diego. And now we're all, like, international connections and all that. I always give her a hard time about that, like all your fancy friends, but yeah, she's produced some really awesome shows here, like things that have been presented all over the world. And she from time to time, she doesn't have a dance company, per se, but she will put a group together and. Percent work with grants and things like that. So she stays pretty active in the community. Speaker 1  30:04 Well, somewhere along the line, you switch from doing accounting, I gather, to becoming a full time personal trainer. Osvaldo Aponte  30:13 So I never really stopped. I was doing personal training while I was going to school, between when I getting out of the army and then getting my degree right. That's how I like, basically work my way through school. And once I went into industry to get that experience that we talked about, I had a very limited practice, but I kept it so I continued to program for a few very special friends, and we affectionately call it the the Herman street fitness club, because that's where we lived when we started the gathering. And we had a lot of equipment. We dedicated our garage space to just be in a gym instead of putting our cars in there. And so we had the small group. It was, you know, my wife and a few of her dance friends, and they also kept going. So I kept programming, getting certifications, always with the thought that one day I'm going to have my own gym, right? I'm going to, when I get out of this accounting thing, go have my own gym. And so I always did it. It wasn't like I had this break and then my personal practice, right? Both an instructor and a practitioner, really blew up during that time, because I had a lot of time on my hands to be able to do what I wanted and finesse my my practice, and so that's what I did. I really just invested a lot of time into and money into education. You know, that's where I got my functional neurology, education, my strength and conditioning stuff. Like, it was really all a plan all along to eventually be a gym owner and do what I'm doing now. Speaker 1  31:40 So was there a defining moment or something that specifically made the made you take the leap to do it full time? Osvaldo Aponte  31:48 Yes, and it was actually almost like a leap. So, so I used to have this beautiful bike that I rode all the time, and I rode it with always this intent of getting better. It's like a skill. I'm going to go out there. I'm going to be really good with it. And on one fateful morning, I was almost about to hop back on the highway and head back home, I was almost done with my ride, and I got cut off by a trailer. And so my options were, hit the truck, hit the trailer, potentially hit another biker that I cannot see because I had a blind spot on the oncoming traffic, so I hit the trailer, flew over it, so the leap, there's the LEAP flew over the trailer, landed on my back and bounced off the ground like a ball got thrown into a hospital, I mean, to into an ambulance, because, you know, they were like, you may have internal bleeding. We got to do all kinds of scans and all that stuff. And that was in 2017 and I walked into my boss's office at the time, where I was accounting manager for a construction company, and I just turned in my resignation. And I never went back, because at that point, I was like, All right, like I could have just died, like, a week ago. So if I'm going to do this fitness thing, like full on, have my gym and all that stuff, I better do it now. Speaker 1  33:06 Well, and obviously I would think the physical conditioning that you had helped you survive and deal with all of that. When the accident happened, Osvaldo Aponte  33:18 every medical professional that I saw said the same thing. They said, if you weren't as fit as you are, you would have a shattered pelvis and probably a broken spine. Yeah. So, yeah. Speaker 1  33:33 So talk to me about strength, because clearly you're being in personal trainer and all the things that you've done. You're a very strong guy. What does strength mean to you, not just physically, but emotionally and in your whole makeup? Osvaldo Aponte  33:48 So I belong to this organization. It's an educational organization that issues kettlebell, barbell and body weight certification. It's called strong first, and they have a really beautiful saying. They're a maxim saying. They said that strength has a higher purpose, and I agree with that wholeheartedly, and it's part of the reason why I feel such pride and purpose by being part of this organization, because that's how we sell the lifestyle, if you will, right? So we know, just from the story that I just shared, that being physically strong can help you during illness. There's a beloved coach within our organization. His name is Brett Jones, and a few years back, he was diagnosed with cancer, and he lost so much weight during the treatment that if he hadn't been as sturdy as he was, he probably wouldn't have made it. So, you know, that's just a, you know, a personal, both personal, right, because my own experience and then somebody that I care deeply about and admire and has been like a mentor to me, and someone that I look up to, but all around I can, I can look and see people that, when afflicted with illness, relied on their fitness in order to just have a little bit of a better quality of life. And. Some case, outright survive these things. So from that perspective, you know, it's hard not to see how fundamental it is. How, let me put it to this. I do not understand how somebody wouldn't be interested in at least a little bit of strength in their own life, with the myriad examples that are out there about people overcoming obstacles because of the strength that they have cultivated over the years, you know? So I think that that's a good starting point for me. Speaker 1  35:26 So you, you, you clearly take that very seriously. It isn't just physical strength, it is mental strength. It is really a whole mindset that you adopt. Osvaldo Aponte  35:42 I do believe so. I mean, I can relate this to every major experience, right? So I said, I said the army was really hard, but you know, one thing that made it easy was my my physical fitness. And here's, here's another, when you talk about purpose, right? And what else be beyond just you, but what else can we do for others? So very early on, while I was in the army, people started to pick up on the fact that I really liked fitness. And they were like, hey, private Ponte, would you like to lead PT, which just means, like, you know, you kind of run the physical training session. And I was like, oh my god, I would love that. So they would allow me to do it. And you start to get experience. You need to do more. And they take on more, and they gave you greater groups to work with. But at some point, one of my superiors came to me and said, Hey, at that point, I was a corporal. I said, Corporal Ponte, we have this soldier. They are really great at their job. We love them. They're respectful, they honor the army, but they're having a hard time with their physical fitness, and they're about to get booted out if they don't pass this PT test. Can you help them out? And so that was one of the first, like, real life challenges for me, because it was like, in terms of fitness, because it was like, it's not like, Oh, if I don't lose 10 pounds by my wedding day, I'm not going to feel as great. Okay, that's a good goal, too, but you're talking about somebody that's been over 10 years in the Army, and they're about to get booted because they can't pass a PT test. If you can help that person stay in the army, that's huge. And so I did. And then another one came, and the other one was like, Oh, they need to pass their weight and height standards. Help them do that as well. And so I became, I developed a reputation for being able to being able to do that for other soldiers, and when you do that again, it's just more meaningful, because it's not just that you feel good about what you're doing, but somebody else's life is going to be significantly changed because of the help that you were able to provide in that realm, you know. And how many times in life do we get to do that? I don't know. You know. Like, I don't, I can't tell you a single time when any of my accounting assignments did that for anyone you know, you know, like, they're kind of meaningless in a lot of ways. You know. Like, okay, well, you know, the financials are in you know. But it wasn't like somebody's not going to come and hug you and thank you, you know, because you did the financials well. But if you can help someone stay in the Army because they pass their PD test, or they pass their height and weight standards, that's significant. That's another example that I can share with you in that realm. Speaker 1  38:15 Yeah, well, and it shows also that you care. Osvaldo Aponte  38:19 I always have. And I think, you know, earlier, you were asking me about my upbringing, and I think it goes back to that and that small town, you know, just being together, looking out for each other, you know, like when, when I was in the far away from my house, but then my friend's mom would know where I was, and she would look out for me. It's kind of like that, you know, just you help what you can, because it's the right thing to do, Speaker 1  38:42 yeah, well, and that's that's important. Well, you so when you went into becoming a personal trainer and becoming a trainer and dealing with physical therapy, physical training, not therapy, but physical training, one of the areas that you went into was kettlebell training. What is a kettlebell? Osvaldo Aponte  39:05 So the kettlebells originated as a counterweight to balance the scales in the markets in Russia, and in between selling produce or other items, the farmers will start to play with them and discover that they could do all these cool little moves. But over time, the moves turned out to be actually kind of beneficial to, you know, maintaining good health, especially like a strong spine, a strong core, just being able to be athletic and strong and things that are not so easily developed. Fast forward many years, and the Russian military had developed a system that combined using the carabell but applying a very specific type of technique that can be compared to hostile Japanese corruption. Karate, okay? So when you think about, you know, something that is very external in nature, in martial arts, right? Because you can make the distinction between, like an internal martial art, like Tai Chi, versus an external martial art, which should be like hostile karate, taekwondo, Muay Thai, all of these arts are more external driven. I It gives you the perfect combination of movement and breath control, which is the very core of what martial arts is. And this is why, in the strength world, people often refer to hostile, credible training as the martial art of strength training, because the focus on the precision of the movement and the combination of the breathing pattern to make it a very powerful, efficient technique that's not just doesn't just do the job, but it also keeps you safe as a practitioner, and it builds your body with all kinds of resilience and Things that we all need and want. And so a little bit of a long winded that's okay to me. That's what the kettlebell is. Speaker 1  41:07 So what is a kettlebell? What does it look like? So it Osvaldo Aponte  41:10 looks like a cannon bundle with a handle on, if you think like a cannonball, and then a handle on it. That's basically what it looks like, yep. And so when you here's a really interesting thing, and you'll like this because of your educational background. So when you pick up a dumbbell and you hold it, let's say in front of us, if you were going to press it overhead in the military press, right, the dumbbell is kind of, not kind of, but it is. It sits in the palm of your hand right, somewhat balanced from side to side, right. And then you go overhead, and you can balance it with your center of mass, and you're good to go the cat. To go the kettlebell the way that the technique calls for the grabbing. It sits on your forearm on the outside, so that off center of gravity, it continuously rotates, creating torque in the movement, and you got to fight against that. So it creates an extra challenge for the body that you now have to deal with, and if you can successfully do that, then you get a whole bunch of benefits that the dumbbell just won't give you. Speaker 1  42:08 How heavy are they kettlebell? Well, traditionally, they Osvaldo Aponte  42:11 used to be 1624, and 32 kilos, but now they go from eight kilos all the way up to like 5660 kilos. Speaker 1  42:20 That's pretty heavy, I know. Osvaldo Aponte  42:24 And I have all of them, Michael, all of them. Speaker 1  42:27 Well, I wouldn't want a 60 kilo kettlebell dropping on my foot. Osvaldo Aponte  42:31 No, we just use that for a show. We just put it in the corner. Never use it. Speaker 1  42:36 Yeah. I mean, that's what, 132 pounds. So that's pretty heavy. Osvaldo Aponte  42:43 Yeah, yeah, no, sometimes, but you know, practically gentlemen, work with 1624, and 32 kilo. That's pretty, pretty normal. Females usually work 1216, and 20 around that, although nowadays, I mean, I have colleagues within the strong first world that are pressing 32 kilos, no problem. So there's a lot of very strong women out there that can do a lot more. But just generally speaking, general population, that's about the range. And then somewhere like myself, who does this for a living and teaches it and all that, I work between like 16 all the way up to like 40 kilos, regularly. Anything above that. It's a little bit too much for me. Yeah, but, yeah, yeah, but it's fun. Speaker 1  43:26 I was, I was afraid you were gonna say the the men do 16 and 20 and 32 and the women do 60 and 64 but that's just saying. Osvaldo Aponte  43:39 I'm sure somewhere out there, somebody's doing, I'm sure Speaker 1  43:41 there is well. So tell me more about strong. First, what makes you so committed to to being a part of it and staying with it? Osvaldo Aponte  43:52 So earlier, I shared with you that though you know, they have that maxim that said that strength has a greater purpose. The other aspect of strong first, that I really, really like, because it connects deeply with my martial arts roots and my commitment to discipline and all these things, is that they call themselves the school of strength. So when you're a student and you come through the curriculum, what we're trying to teach you is the the tools, the fundamentals that you can go ahead and apply to any tool, whether that tool may be your own body weight, a kettlebell or a barbell, if you learn the techniques, the principles, excuse me, that we teach within strong first, then you will be able to apply that to anything that requires you to exert yourself, You know, from a strength standpoint, and that's really valuable, versus just, you know, you know, showing you some moves that you know may or may not help you in a different situation, right? Because what you learn is like, what constitute proper posture under load, what is safe, you know? How do you breathe under. Load. I think that's a really important part the breath, just as in dance, as in the martial arts, and then in strength training is paramount. Like it really should be the first thing that we talk about when you get a new student, it's like, let's talk about how we breathe under load. And so with strong first, we are very committed to teaching these principles to the students. And it's very everything is very fundamental in nature. So for example, if you wanted to get certified as a strong first cut about level one instructor, you're required to show us six movements, six movements, and we take three days to teach you those six movements in the certification. Okay, really, it's really too because the last day you're mostly testing, but still, like, that's a lot of time and energy that we're putting towards what seems to be a very simple thing. I mean, how hard is it? Michael, it's just a squat, it's just the press, it's just this, just that. But what I like about our organization is that we take care to go what we like to say, an inch wide but a mile deep in knowledge. We're not concerned with the superficial fancy. Let's get all fancy out there and like, Listen, if you have the fundamentals down, there's always a time and a place for that. You can get super fancy. But what the at the core of it, what we really want to do is share with the student something that they can apply to almost anything. And to do that, it has to be principles based. It has to be digestible in a short amount of time, focusing on very few things that you do really, really well. And that's another part that I really like about it, Speaker 1  46:37 isn't that, to an extent, also the same sort of concept that people learn in martial arts. I mean, you know, it's all about learning to to control your mind, learning how to use your mind, learning how to be introspective, learning how to to focus. And it sounds like you're doing the same sort of things that people typically will learn in karate or Judo or any of the other martial arts. Osvaldo Aponte  47:06 I agree with you, and this is, you know, not everyone has the time to go. You know, martial arts, I think, takes a little bit more time, and it might be a little more intimidating, but with this system that we teach in strong first, we can bring that to the table for someone who's short on time. And you know, you ask me things that I like about strong first, let me. Let me give you another angle. So our training protocols oftentimes call for a minimal, minimal time investment out of your day. Because what we want to see more than intensity, it's frequency. We would like to see our students do this thing more regularly, even on a daily basis, to cultivate mobility, strength, endurance, power, right? These physical characteristics that are all very important in life. But when you think about this, like man, like, how am I going to do all that? Well, the answer is very simply, okay, if you make it into digestible little pieces, which we do with our training. And perhaps I should give a more concrete example. We have a program that only calls for two kettlebell movements. In this program, you will do kettlebell swings, which is a ballistic movement, where you project the kettlebell with such force that you make it weightless against gravity, and then we have the grind movement, which is, you're just moving against the weight of the bell. And you know, the complexity of the movements themselves, through a series of I was almost very like, like a martial art, like you've been, you've been referring to, it's very precise and just very defined. And if you're a very busy parent. You know, you're 35 years old, you are about to hit that stretch of career where you're really going to crush it and be the most productive, make the most money. You have kids, you still need to make time to you know, be a good husband, be a good father, be a good brother, a good son, a good all these things. I want fitness to serve you, not the other way, or I don't want you to be a slave to fitness and be in the gym, you know, ridiculous amounts of time. I want to empower you. I want to give you something that you can do minimally, three times a week, four times a week, five times a week, but that allows you to do all those other things that are really important too. Like, you know, enjoy and live your life and cultivate these things in your life. And so that's another ace out of the pocket, if you will. That the strong first school of strength system brings to the table is that the investment that you have to make in it can be quite small. You can make it very complex, right? Like, as this being my job, my routines tend to be a little bit more fancy, but they don't have to be, you know, I can always tap into that simplicity to maintain my health, and I'm not leaving any any money on the table. I'm still getting all the benefits, and that's yet another aspect of it that I absolutely love. Michael Hingson  49:55 So another thing that I know in reading the. Things that you sent me, that you seem to be pretty knowledgeable about, is the one arm push up. Tell me about that. What heck? That sounds kind of scary, but what the heck is a one arm push up? And you even wrote a book about it, right? Osvaldo Aponte  50:12 I did. I did. So you know one of our big time instructors, his name is Brett Jones. He's called this exercise. He said that the one arm, one leg, push up is an exercise in full body tension. Now it's, it's, it can be really boring to some people. I can absolutely see why it's such a big deal to me, having grown up with a couple of uncles, one of which did martial arts. And he would show this to me when I was a very young man. And I was just like, wow. Like, how do you do that? Uncle, please show me. Deal Jimmy, please show me. And he went on to teach it to me. And so here's the cool thing. I was, like, eight years old when I did my first one arm push up, you know? And so this is something that as very, very young we can do and then, if we just maintain it through the rest of our life, we all have that skill in order to do it. Michael, it requires an exceptional amount of body control, breath control, and the things that we talked about right that martial arts like discipline and focus and it, it is a great base if you want to build more strength with other tools, like, for example, you want to go and do some dead lifting or overhead pressing, or maybe some more fancy skills, like inverted push ups with no support from the wall, you know, like a gymnast would do, or that kind of skill, you know. But it's a really good test for any young person, or even, you know, adult to see if they can conquer that movement because it's it's quite attainable. It's not impossible. Anybody can do it. It takes a little bit of work and discipline. But therein lies the benefit. This is going to test your your spirit and your your resolve and your patience more than it will test you physically, honestly, because it just takes time. And that's just one of the reasons why I like it so much. But in general, I know that if I can do a one arm, one arm, one leg, push up at any moment, both sides, I know that I am doing a really good job of connecting my lower and upper body with the strength of, you know, my center, you know, my abdominals, my pelvic floor, my diaphragm, my all of that. So it's a very useful move, even though it may seem a little bit like a little bit like a party trick, although it is a party trick, I have to say, I'm not gonna deny that anytime I do it at a party, people are like, that's pretty cool, but, but, but, you know, it really does have a lot of strength benefits that perhaps are not so discernible just at a glance. Speaker 1  52:37 Well, I can appreciate that. I mean, yeah, I I'm sure you can call it a party trick, because you can do it at parties, and you're going to amaze people. And I assume it is exactly what what you say. It's pushing up with one arm and one leg. Osvaldo Aponte  52:53 The setup is a little different. So if you can imagine somebody in a push up position, Michael, and then you'll take their legs and split them out a little bit more. Think about one and a half to two times shoulder width. Okay, so you have a broad base now in your legs. From there, you proceed to remove one hand from the ground, and the hand can be placed at the side of the body. The hand can be placed behind the back. You can extend your hand out in front of you. That's a really hard version to do. You take a nice stiff breath into your abdomen, and you brace your abs like drill sergeant hopper is about to come over and kick you in the gut. And then you lower yourself with control and with a forceful exhale, you press into the ground, not breaking that nice line that the body has, and it's vertical to the deck, and you press yourself up, and now you just displace incredible core strength, upper body strength, and just breath control, which is always beautiful to see. Speaker 1  53:47 So you're doing that with one hand, one hand, and because the other hand is not braced, helping, Osvaldo Aponte  53:53 no, it's not and then this can also be done with one hand and one leg. So now you have a leg and an arm that are up in the air, and you are only doing it on one on one leg, and that's, that's my favorite variation. That's what's really cool one, wow. Michael Hingson  54:07 Well, tell me a little bit about resilience and unstoppability from the military and everything that you've done, you've seen a lot of different aspects of resilience. What are the sort of the common threads that you would say people have, that, that you've experienced that have made them resilient or unstoppable, or what are some of the common threads that you see in people who are resilient and unstoppable? Osvaldo Aponte  54:30 I think that a commitment to learning and growing is something that I see in people that I would describe as resilience. They don't stay put. They're not complacent. They learn one thing, and they devote some time to it, which takes discipline and courage, and then they move on to something else, and they do that, and they continue this throughout life. They're lifelong, lifelong learners. Is one thing that. I would say, and they have a commitment to this growth mentality, where everything it can be treated as a as an opportunity for becoming better. And it's not even always like just, oh, I'm better, but rather, what is the thing that makes us be valuable to those around us? And so for me, and this is not my own idea, this has been said by many people, but whenever you can make yourself useful to others, then that's a good thing. Yes, you never know when you're going to have to tap into this knowledge, right? And so to that, to that extent, you know, maintaining good physical health, which, incidentally, can be a benefit to not just your family but society, because you're a lower cost to people right with the health, you know, cost and things like that. But it's just that having that, that vision, that it's not about next week or next month, I want my efforts to be sustainable for the rest of my life. So it's that mentality of being in a marathon rather than a sprint. While it is occasionally important to be able to sprint, we all know that that's really not a feasible way to go through life. You're going to burn out and crash. Yeah. And so the most resilient of folks that I truly admire have this long term view of life and a commitment to be the best that they can be, not just for themselves or their communities as well, right? Well? Speaker 1  56:30 And that makes sense. I think that the reality is that all too often people rush into things they don't Michael Hingson  56:38 look at things in the long run, and that is a problem, because they'll burn out. So So tell me you are going off this fall and starting a master's degree program. Osvaldo Aponte  56:51 I am this is really funny, but today will be like our our big welcoming, you know, presentation where we get go see, meet the professors, and they'll take us through, you know, an overview of the course and everything else This happened in like, a few hours from this conversation that we're having. So I'm super excited. Speaker 1  57:10 What's the degree in? It's Osvaldo Aponte  57:13 biomechanics, kinesiology. Master's in kinesiology with an infant in biomechanics from the Point Loma Nazarian University, which is, at the moment, one of, you know, a very prestigious school. Sounds exciting, Michael, I feel so fortunate to be part of this. I really, really, I feel like, my goodness, especially this late in my life, like it's people don't get these kind of chances. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna honor the opportunity by giving my absolute best and just really bringing all that good knowledge back to the community and helping you know the people that I serve and work with. Speaker 1  57:45 Yeah, well, we have been going at this for about an hour. Can you believe it? I know. So tell me in is we kind of wind down what's one lesson or one thing that you would like to leave people with one practice or one mindset or one goal. What would you what would you advise people? Osvaldo Aponte  58:08 Yeah, I would, I would advise anyone out there listening to to consider that best case scenario. We're going to be doing this for a long time. So, you know, have your short term goals, yeah, for sure. But really think whenever you feel like, oh my god, working out every day is overwhelming. Don't put it that way. Just think that this is something that you need to do to be healthy and on a regular and if you're going to do it until you know you're 60 or 70 or 80 or 90, then it's okay to take a day off here and there. It's okay to go on that vacation and whatever, you know, like, don't be yourself, like, Oh my God. Like, I feel so guilty because I didn't do this. It's okay. You have a whole lifetime to do this, but do be committed to those goals. Like, you know, I think it's a lot easier to manage when the intensity is lower and the forecast is longer than the opposite of that, right? It's like, I'm going to go really hard for three months, and then you get injured. Things happen. It's not as enjoyable. But if you just spread this out, you know, over a long enough timeline, you really can see that it's manageable and so very valuable for all the things that we talked about today. So please, please, please, please, please, look at the long term. Do not be obsessed with the intensity right now. Just do something daily and give your best, and you're going to be in great Speaker 1  59:25 shape as a personal trainer. Do you just work with people locally and in person, or do you do virtual work as well? Osvaldo Aponte  59:32 I only do in person. I used to do virtual but I stopped doing it a while ago. Speaker 1  59:38 Well, but if people want to learn more from you or contact you. How will they do that? Osvaldo Aponte  59:44 So they can visit my website, the iron core way, iron core way.com, and there you can find links for my workshops. That's another way, even though I you know, not everybody's going to be able to do personal training with me, but if they visit, they come to my workshops through strong first. Because they're going to be able to learn all of the concepts that we talked about today, and they're all listed on the website, and I have a few of those coming up in the into the end of the year and into next year. So please look at that, and you'll be able to see all my events, some here in San Diego, and a few of them are going to be going to Los Angeles pretty soon here. So what's the website? Again? Iron core way.com. Michael Hingson  1:00:21 Iron core way.com. Great. Well, I hope people will reach out. I like the things that you've said. I appreciate the things that you've advised. And it makes sense that goals are things to work on and achieve and and strive to make happen, but it isn't something that you just do instantaneously, and it's done, and you got to look at it in the long haul and over a long period of time. And I think that makes perfect sense. So I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for listening. I hope that you've enjoyed this today. Love to hear your thoughts. Please email me at Michael H [email protected] Speaker 1  1:01:02 mic, C, H, A, E, L, H, I at, A, C, C, E, S, S, I B, e.com, or go to our podcast page. Michael hingson, H, I N, G, s, O, n.com/podcast, wherever you're watching or listening to us today, please, please give us a five star rating. We value your rating very highly, and also for all of you and esvaldo, including you, if you know of anyone else who you think ought to be a guest on the podcast, love it. If you'd give us an introduction, we're always looking for more people and more stories to talk about. So once again, I want to thank you. This has been great. Thank you very much for being here. Osvaldo Aponte  1:01:40 Thank you, Michael, it's been lovely talking to you today. Speaker 1  1:02:08 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Laughter may be one of the most powerful tools we have for navigating stress, burnout, and the weight of modern life. In this conversation, I had the pleasure of sitting down once again with Sir James Gray Robinson to explore why humor, self-awareness, and gratitude matter far more than most of us realize. James and I talk about how easily we lose the ability to laugh at ourselves, how that loss feeds stress and burnout, and why taking life too seriously often does more harm than good. Along the way, we reflect on comedy, culture, trauma, and the simple truth that being able to laugh can shift perspective faster than almost anything else. James also shares what he has learned from years of coaching high-stress professionals, especially lawyers, about how laughter resets the nervous system and opens the door to better problem solving. We talk about gratitude as a powerful antidote to fear and anger, the role artificial intelligence can play as a daily tool for perspective, and how self-reflection helps us separate reality from the stories our minds create. We even explore James’s work with an ancient royal order dedicated to service and philanthropy. I believe you will find this conversation thoughtful, grounding, and surprisingly uplifting, because at its core, it reminds us that joy, humor, and connection are not luxuries. They are essential to living an unstoppable life. Highlights: 00:59 – Learn why losing the ability to laugh at yourself creates stress and emotional rigidity.04:26 – Understand the difference between witty humor and humor that harms rather than heals.11:03 – Discover how laughter resets the nervous system and interrupts burnout patterns.15:35 – Learn why gratitude is one of the strongest tools for overcoming fear and anger.16:16 – Hear how artificial intelligence can be used as a daily tool to shift perspective and invite joy.35:19 – Understand how burnout often begins with internal stories that distort reality and fuel stress. About the Guest: Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq. is an award winning third-generation trial attorney who specialized in family law and civil litigation for 27 years in his native North Carolina. Burned out, Sir James quit in 2004 and has spent the next 20 years doing extensive research and innovative training to help others facing burnout and personal crises to heal. He has taught wellness, transformation, and mindfulness internationally to thousands of private clients, businesses, and associations. As a licensed attorney, he is focused on helping lawyers, professionals, entrepreneurs, employers, and parents facing stress, anxiety, addiction, depression, exhaustion, and burnout. Sir James is a highly respected speaker, writer, TV personality, mentor, consultant, mastermind, and spiritual leader/healer who is committed to healing the planet. He possesses over 30 certifications and degrees in law, healing, and coaching, as well as hundreds of hours of post-certification training in the fields of neuroscience, neurobiology, and neuroplasticity, epigenetics, mind-body-spirit medicine, and brain/heart integration. Having experienced multiple near-death experiences has given him a deeper connection with divinity and spiritual energy. Sir James regularly trains professionals, high-level executives, and businesspeople to hack their brains to turn stress into success. He is regularly invited to speak at ABA and state bar events about mental and emotional health. His work is frequently published in legal and personal growth magazines, including the ABA Journal, Attorneys-at-Work Magazine, and the Family Law Journal. Sir James has authored 13 books on personal growth and healing, including three targeting stressed professionals as well as over 100 articles published in national magazines. He has produced several training videos for attorneys, executives, entrepreneurs and high-level professionals. Sir James has generously endowed numerous projects around the world to help children, indigenous natives, orphans and the sick, including clean water projects in the Manu Rain Forest, Orphanages, Schools and Medical Clinics/Ambulances in India, Buddhist monks in Nepal, and schools in Kenya, Ecuador, and Puerto Rico. In addition to his extensive contributions, Sir James produced and starred in three documentaries that will be released in 2024, focusing on healing, mental and emotional health. The first, "Beyond Physical Matter," is available on several streaming platforms, including Amazon Prime. The trailer can be found at www.BeyondPhysicalMatter.com. The second, “Beyond the Mastermind Secret”, is scheduled for release in the fall of 2024. The trailer can be found at https://BeyondMastermindSecrets.com/. The third, “Beyond Physical Life” is scheduled for release at the end of 2024. The trailer can be found at https://beyondphysicallife.com/. He has formed an entertainment media production company known as Beyond Entertainment Global, LLC, and is currently producing feature length films and other media. In recognition of his outstanding work and philanthropy, Sir James was recently knighted by the Royal Order of Constantine the Great and Saint Helen. In addition, Sir James won the prestigious International Impact Book Award for his new book “Thriving in the Legal Arena: The Ultimate Lawyer’s Guide for Transforming Stress into Success”. Several of his other books have won international book awards as well. Sir James was recently awarded the President’s Lifetime Achievement Award by President Joe Biden for his outstanding service to his community, country and the world. He will be awarded the prestigious International Humanitarian Award known as Men with Hearts, in London, England in the fall of 2024, as well as Man of the Year and Couple of the year with his wife, Linda Giangreco. Sir James has a wide variety of work/life experiences, including restauranteur, cattle rancher, horse trainer, substance abuse counselor, treatment center director, energy healer, bodyguard, legal counselor for several international spiritual organizations, golfer and marathon runner. He graduated from R.J. Reynolds High School in 1971, Davidson College in 1975 and Wake Forest University School of Law in 1978. Ways to connect with Sir James**:** FB - https://www.facebook.com/sirjamesgrayrobinson  IG - https://www.instagram.com/sirjamesgrayrobinson/  TikTok - https://www.tiktok.com/@sirjamesgrayrobinson?_t=8hOuSCTDAw4&_r=1 Youtube - https://www.youtube.com/@JamesGrayRobinson LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/gray-robinson-/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:17 Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. And we're doing something today we haven't done too often, but we've done it a few times. We are having a second conversation with James Gray Robinson, actually, sir, James Gray Robinson, and we're going to talk about that part of it today we did last time, but I'm going to start actually a little bit different way. You and I were just talking about humor. We were talking about Mel Brooks, because I, when you came into the to the room, I said, What in the wide, wide world of sports is it going on here, which is a very famous line from Blazing Saddles. And you pointed out that that movie probably couldn't be made today, and I agree. But why do you think that is Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  02:10 I think that we've become so disenchanted with ourselves that everything's offensive now, I think back when we and when I grew up in the 50s and 60s, people had so many really, you know, life threatening things to think about, like atomic war and, you know, it just seems like people have shifted their consciousness away from having a good time to simply having to be right all the time. And so we've lost the ability to laugh at ourselves. I mean, one of my favorite lines is, if you think Talk is cheap, you've never talked to a lawyer. And the thing is, is that I'm a lawyer, and I find that incredibly funny, yeah, because if you can't laugh at yourself, then you really are going to struggle in life, because a lot of times, things don't work out the way that we anticipated or wanted them to. And there's a couple of different ways that we can react to that or respond to that. There's a I found that people are losing the ability to take responsibility for themselves and that they blame everything on everybody else. We're raising a nation of victims, and victims are not going to laugh at anything. So what we, I think, what we have to do is we have to start teaching our children how to have a sense of humor. If something doesn't happen the just the way we want it to, then laugh at it. It doesn't have to, you know, unless it's pain, you know, if it's physically abusive or something, then you know. But the thing is, we're trying to helicopter parent everything, and we all get so upset when somebody says something off the cuff or maybe without fully thinking through what they're saying. So it's, it's just unfortunate that there are many, many things in life I think could be avoided with just a good chuckle and go ahead. Well, I was just going to say, you know, like if somebody said to me, you're. Eyes on wrong I'd laugh because it would what difference does it make? But what my tile looks like? Yeah, and I would just laugh, and I would laugh at me, and I would laugh at them, because somebody thought that there was something wrong with that, yeah. Michael Hingson  05:21 Well, what about people like Don Rickles? You know, who, who was always known for insulting everyone and being an obnoxious character. What do you think about him? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  05:36 I you know the thing is, is that he was offensive, but he wasn't, what's the word? I would say he he wasn't profane, because he never cursed at anybody. You know, I've watched a couple of roasts. You know, they call them roast, right? They get a bunch of people together, and they make fun of somebody. And back in the day, when Don Rickles and Johnny Carson, Milton, burl, rich, little even, what couple of committee is, I can't think of, but they were extremely witty, and they were perhaps offensive, but they weren't necessarily insulting to the point where you It's not Funny. And I think we've got and we've gone to the point where we now are seeing these roasts. And I thought I saw Tom Brady's roast. Actually paid to watch it, and it was the most profane, you know, unfunny, hurtful, hour and a half I think I've ever watched, and it just I didn't smile once. I just was wincing the whole way through, wondering why people think that sort of nonsense is funny. Michael Hingson  07:19 Well, I asked about Don Rickles, because I saw an interview with him on the Donahue show, when Phil Donahue had his TV show, one of the things. And after he said this, I thought about it, and of course, never really was able to see in person, but I believed him. Don rickel said, Look, I never pick on someone if I think they're going to be offended. He said, If I see somebody in the audience and start picking on them and it looks like they're taking offense or they're getting angry about it, I won't pick on them anymore. And he said I might even go talk with them later, but he said I won't pick on them anymore. And I thought about that, he said, I will never there are lines I won't cross, which is some of what you just said. But he really was absolutely adamant about the fact that he didn't really want to insult people. He wanted people to have fun, so he always looked for people in the audience who would laugh at what he had to say and how he and how he abused them and so on. He said those are the people that he really liked to to interact with because they weren't taking offense, which I thought was a very intuitive and interesting concept on his part. And if you really want to talk about a comedian who was never profane no matter what he did or happened to him, later, think about Bill Cosby, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  08:49 yeah, and or Red Skelton, or Red Skelton, yeah, that was and always, he would always end up with God Bless. And the thing that amazes me about today's comedy is how much violence. There's a subtle undercurrent of violence under all of their humor. And it's, you know, they're kind of like laughing at somebody who is hurt or is not as intelligent as the comedian thinks he is. Or, you know, they're making fun of stuff just to be hurtful. And it's not, you know, they've lost the connection between being taken taking fun, making fun of somebody and being hurtful. And I just amazed when I see a lot of comedians today. I mean, there's lots of very witty, very intelligent, grand guffaw producing comedy out. There. And it's, there's some, they're very, very talented comedians out there, but then there are the other people that want to drag you through the Michael Hingson  10:07 mud, yeah? And it's all shock. It's all shock, yeah, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  10:12 and intentionally offend you to, I guess it's some kind of power play, but it's simple. You know, people, I think that people actually are so traumatized that they they think it's funny when somebody traumatizes somebody else. Michael Hingson  10:34 Well, I Oh, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  10:35 go on. No, go right ahead. Michael Hingson  10:38 I I never got to see Don Rickles live, although I would have loved to, and I would love to have paid the money to sit in the front row, hopefully, hoping that he would pick on me so I could jump up and say, Yeah, I saw you once on TV. I took one look at you and haven't been able to see since. What do you think about that? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  11:02 Never that would be appropriate, yeah? I mean, because he'd love it, you're making fun, yeah, you're making fun of him, and you're making fun of yourself. And that's what I call self depreciating humor. He where the jokes, yeah, the joke really is about you. It's not about him, yeah, and it's in it, so it's people probably wouldn't take offense to that. But when people sit there, you know, start poking fun at how people look or what they their educational level, or their, you know, cultural background is I, I just don't get that. I mean, it's and I grieve that we're turning into bullies. Well, you know, and it's, it's unfortunate you Michael Hingson  11:52 you've dealt a lot, especially over the last 20 years, with burnout and things like that. Do you think that what's happening in in society based on what you're talking about, with the lack of humor, without self deprecating environments and all that. Do you think that's because it's stressful, contributing to burnout? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  12:14 Yes, I think, well, we again, we take ourselves way too seriously. The one thing that I've noticed, especially with my clients, is when I can get them to laugh, they start to take a different perspective of their life. But when they think everything that they're what I call they're stuck in Warrior mode. There's, you know, we have a, don't know if we talked about this last time, but we have a nervous system that goes one or two ways. It either goes to fight or flight, called the sympathetic nervous system, where you know you're reacting to everything in a negative way, because it's a matter of survival, or we go to the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the fun part of our psyche, and we can enjoy ourselves, but everybody is so scared of something there that they the body cannot stand That level of stress for years. I mean, that's what burnout is, and it it tears your body apart until it actually turns off. And that's what happens when you burn out. We used to call it nervous breakdown, but, you know now it's burnout. But the point is, is you just wear yourself out because you don't have anything that will break the constant stream of stress, and one of the best ways that you can handle stress is to laugh. Laugh at yourself, laugh at something, a joke, laugh at whatever you find stressful, because it breaks that autonomic nervous system response. And if you can reset yourself every now and then that you know, one of the ways I teach people how to deal with stress is to research jokes. Go buy a good joke book, and you can go and find enough. You know, all you need is a couple of jokes to start the day, and you're going to be in a much better frame of mind going to work or dealing with whatever you have to deal with. If you've laughed at least once before you go to work, because that that engages your parasympathetic. I call it the guru. And you can deal with adversity. You can deal with problems. You can actually problem solve. You. And but when we're stressed out because we're afraid of what's going to happen, we're afraid of making mistakes, and we're afraid of what somebody's going to think of us, then we are just going to end up in a very bad place, mentally and emotionally and physically. So it's, you know, one of the things that you can do, as if you're having to deal with stress on a daily basis, is to just remember how to be grateful. I mean, I think that of all the emotions, gratitude is probably the most powerful one there is because it will overcome fear, it will overcome anger, it will overcome shame, it will overcome guilt, it will overcome envy, all the negative emotions cannot stand up to gratitude. And so if you can learn to be grateful, and especially grateful for the struggle, then you are going to be a happy camper, and you can probably learn to laugh, until you can be grateful though you're going to struggle. And that's we're not designed to do the struggling. We're designed to have fun. I mean, that's people always say, what are my purpose, you know? And why am I doing here? And I said, you only have two purposes in life. One is to breathe, and the other one is to laugh. Everything else is just a complication. So if you just remember that, if you can be grateful and laugh once in a while, you're going to be a lot better off than somebody that takes it too seriously, Michael Hingson  16:44 yeah, well, and you, you must see a lot of it, because I know you, you do a lot of coaching and working with especially lawyers, which is a very stressful situation, especially people who are truly dedicated to the Law and who look at it in the right way, there must be a lot of stress. How do you get them to relax? I like the idea of getting a joke book. I think that's that's cute, and I think that that makes a lot of sense. But in but in general, how do you get people to laugh and to do it as a habit. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  17:24 Well, I've been doing this for 20 years, so my answer 20 years ago is probably a little different than the answer I have now. Artificial Intelligence is my friend, because I can, I can do anything with artificial intelligence. And one of the best ways I, you know, I program my artificial intelligence to to respond, to react and to know who I am. I put, I put all of my books onto artificial intelligence. Every time I write an article, I put it in there. I'm always talking to it. I'm always saying, Well, this is the way I feel about this. This is the way I feel about that. This is what this is funny to me. This something happened to me today that is was really funny. And then I tell it what was funny. And I would program this thing. So the next, when I wake up in the morning, I can just ask it tell me something that'll make me laugh, and it always has something that will make me laugh. And so because it can, not only does it know what I fed into it, it knows everything that's on the internet, right? And so you can, you can get a, you know, something funny, something to start your day, make me glad to be alive, you know, tell me something that'll make me grateful. All those things. It'll, just in a millisecond, it'll be on your screen, yeah. And so it's, that's a tool we obviously didn't have even a year ago, but 20 years ago, it was a little bit more depth, a little bit more effort to find these things. But you could, you could do that. I mean, we did have the internet 20 years ago, and so we, we could go looking and go searching for funny stuff. But it's not as easy as is artificial intelligence, so you know. And if you I'll tell you one thing, it's been a real tool that has been very useful for me, because sometimes if I'm not sure what I should say, my old my old motto was, if you don't know what to say, shut up. But now I asked, I asked, and I'm not sure what, how I should respond to this. What do you suggest? And it'll come up with some. Give me five things that I could say. Michael Hingson  19:59 Does it do? Will tell you, does it ever tell you should just shut up? Just checking yes, yes. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  20:04 Okay, good, good for you. Don't say any. Don't say anything, you fool. But the point is, is that it's got, you know, every book that's ever been written about psychology in its database, so you can find things that would make you sound wise and profound. And I use it all the time to figure out what to say, or to how a better way to say something is Yeah, and that way I've managed to stay pretty much out of trouble by and, you know, it's like having a friend who you could ask, What should I say? And they would come back with a couple of answers that you know, then you can just decide yourself which one you should use, right? Michael Hingson  20:57 And you may, and you may, in addition, tweak it which which makes sense, because AI is, is a tool, and I, I am not sure that it is going to ever develop truly to the point where it, if you will, wakes up and and becomes its own true intelligence, Skynet Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  21:24 on all the Terminator series, Michael Hingson  21:27 or or in Robert heinleins, the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. The computer woke up. It helped as a still my favorite science fiction book, and it was, if you've never read it, it's a story about the the moon in 2076 which had been colonized and was being run by the lunar authority back on Earth, it had no clue about anything. And so in 2076 the moon revolted, and the computer and the computer helped. So on July 4, 2076 it was a great movie or a great book. I'd love to see it dramatized. If somebody would do it the right way, I think it'd make a great radio series. But haven't done it yet. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  22:14 Well, Robert Highland is a genius. No doubt about that, Stranger in a Strange Land was big in my developmental years, yeah, and Michael Hingson  22:26 that was the book that came out right after the Moon is a Harsh Mistress. I still think the moon and harsh mistress is even a better book than Stranger in a Strange Land. But Stranger in a Strange Land really did catch on and and rightfully so. It was, it was very clever. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  22:42 Well, most people, I mean, you know, clean humor is a good place to start, yeah, because I think that all of the profanity that comedians rely on to shock people. And, you know, there are two ways that we have the laugh response one is, is that it shocks you in the sense that it makes you afraid, because it seems like a attack on you. It's a defensive mechanism that we have. It's not even if it's not funny, we will laugh, because that's our body's way of dealing with something that's really traumatic. The other way is when we something strikes us as funny because it's witty or clever, and that is more of a that's a less stressful response. And can we, we can laugh, and it's a more of a genuine response than one where we're basically traumatized, right? And I think that, and with everything else, is who? Who do you hang around? Who is your tribe? Who do you? Somebody was somebody said, some psychologist said, you know, show me 10 of your friends and I'll tell you exactly what your problem is, because the people you hang around will mirror what's going on in your interior landscape. And if you've got friends who are problematic, that means that there's some things on your psyche that you need to take a look at. And you know that, and it's especially people who have been traumatized early in life. Their coping mechanisms and their judgment is not so good, right? So they have to take a step back and look at well, are these people helping me? Are they hurting me? Because if you notice, a lot of traumatized people will surround themselves with traumatized people, and all they do is whip themselves in the lather. Are every day, and they get so melodramatic, and they get so upset about everything that's going on in life, they can't find any sense of humor or any sense of joy, yeah, and it's until they let go of those, those trauma responses they're they're pretty much in a hat, in a self repeating habit that is not going to be healthy. Michael Hingson  25:29 And I think you're absolutely right. It is very much about joy. And we, we should. We should find ways to be joyful and feel joy, and, of course, laugh and not take life so seriously. Unfortunately, there's so much going on today with people who clearly have no sense of humor, or at least they never exhibit it, that it tends to really be a problem. And unfortunately, I think we're all learning some really bad habits, or many of us are learning some very bad habits because of that. And I don't know what's going to break that cycle, but the cycle is going to have to break at some point. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  26:14 It will, unfortunately, a lot of times it takes a revolution, yeah, in order to replace old, unhealthy thought patterns with better thought patterns. You know, I'm reminded of the old saying that when an idiot tries to teach another idiot, you end up with two idiots. So you you have to be careful about who you're taking advice from, right? And so if, especially you know my my advice to anybody that's struggling and suffering is turn off your phone and turn off your TV, and if you know how to read, go read a book, because when you can get into a period of calm, quiet reflection, you're going to be able to make More sense out of what's going on in your life, and especially if you're reading a book that will explain to you the best way to deal with challenges, right? But just or just read a funny book, you know, something you know I find sarcasm and cleverness, extremely funny. So I love books like Forrest Gump, who who take extreme examples and turns them into funny scenarios, and they did a good Michael Hingson  28:01 job making that into a movie too. I thought, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  28:05 I mean, I tell you, I forget who the director was, but they were brilliant because they were able to spin a story that was honest. But it wasn't offensive, and you could laugh because of all of forests characteristics and everything else, but it was presented in the way that it wasn't, you know? It wasn't being mean, right? And it wasn't, being unkind, and so it was just a story of a man who ended up being a success, and it was more through Providence than anything else. You know, I love the Marx Brothers, oh, sure, because they always had a way of making fun of each other and making fun of other people and making fun of themselves that was truly humorous. And it was more sight gags. It was more, you know, one liners, and it wasn't by being mean to anybody. It was as about being very aware of what was going on. Michael Hingson  29:25 I'm trying to remember which movie it was. I think it was duck soup. Somebody fell into the water and she yelled, throw me a lifesaver. And so somebody threw her a lifesaver. That is a candy. Yeah, it's just so clever. It was clever. But, you know, one of the things that I enjoy is old radio shows, radios from the shows from the 30s, 40s and 50s, and the humor, again, was respectful of. Hmm, and they could pick on people to a degree, but it was never in a in a mean way, but just the humor was always so clever, and so I would, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  30:14 I would listen George and Gracie Allen, George, Jack Benny, Michael Hingson  30:19 Phil Harris, Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  30:21 and you was his name, Jackie Gleason, Michael Hingson  30:29 Amos and Andy. And of course, people today have decided Amos and Andy are offensive because they say it's all about blacks, and you're insulting black people. If anybody would go back and look in history, the reality is that Amos and Andy probably was one of the most well, it was one of the most popular shows on radio to the point where, if you were in a movie theater on Saturday afternoon watching a movie, they would stop it when Amos and Andy came on and play the show, and it didn't matter what the color of your skin was. In fact, I asked an Amos and Andy expert one time, when did they stop referring to themselves as black or dark? And the reason I asked that is because the first time I was exposed to Amos and Andy was actually the Amos and Andy TV shows, and I didn't know they were black, and I learned later that they were taken off the air when people started becoming offended because there were two black people. But I asked this, this lady about Amos and Andy, and when did they stop referring to themselves as black? And she said, Well, probably about the last time that she was aware of where there was a reference to it was 1937 so for many, many years, if you decided that their voices were black people, then, then you did, but they didn't talk about black or white or anything else. And and so it was. It was a very interesting show. And one guy usually was trying to con the other one and the other, well, king fish would con Andy, who usually fell for it. But gee, how many shows with white people do we see the same thing. You know? The reality is that it was a very funny show by any standard. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  32:26 Well, Sanford and sons, Sanford, same thing. I mean, that humor was, it was cutting you know, anytime you get on a cutting edge type of program, you know, it's inevitable that somebody's going to take offense. But I always laughed out loud. I watched that show, and it wasn't because they were demeaning anybody. It was just watching people trying to get by and using their wits. And a lot of times it was, it was comical because it wasn't very clever, but it was just they were doing the best they could to make a living. They were doing the best they could to live in their society. And I always admired that. I mean, they never, and they were able to, I guess, touch on the aspect of racial inequality without burning the house down. And it was like always admired them. You know, Sanford and sons, the Jeffersons, all of those shows, how about all the family? If you want to talk all in the family too well they they were just, you could switch one script with the other because it was more about human beings being human than it was about what the color of your skin was, yeah. So, you know, I would invite anybody who is offended by something to really ask yourself, what is it that offends you? Because there's always something in your consciousness that you find offensive. You would never be offended by anything if you unless you found something within yourself that's offensive, whether because and it's called the psychological term is called projection. You're projecting on what you're perceiving, and it's called bias. We all have conclusions. We all have prejudice. We all have judgments. Our brain is built that way to keep us alive, and so we're always interpreting data and perceptions to see if there's any threat out there, and if, when we start taking words as threatening, then we've got a problem. Yep, and. But because things like comedy and humor shouldn't offend anybody, but because you believe in something that makes that offensive, that's why you're offended. And so it's really as useful to people to really think about what is it that I believe that makes that offensive? Because most of the time you will find that whatever it is that you believe may not be true, and it's just something that some kind of conclusion you've drawn because of your experiences, or what you've been taught or what you've witnessed that's given you a wrong idea about something. So I invite anybody who is mad or angry that they look and see what is that belief that is making you angry? Michael Hingson  35:59 Yeah, it gets back to self analysis. It gets back to looking at yourself, which is something that most of us haven't really learned a lot about how to do. How. How did you pick up all these, these kind of nuggets of wisdom and so on. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  36:19 Well, when I burn, when I had my nervous breakdown back in 2004 I quit practicing law for a while because I couldn't bear the thought of going into my office and fighting another day of the battles that trial lawyers always fight. Now I won't say that transactional lawyers don't have battles, but Trial Lawyers end up probably picking a few fights on their own that, you know, they didn't really need to go there, but they do because, you know, Trial Lawyers have a, You know, a talent for arguing they have it's exciting to most of them, and they love to fight. And so when? But eventually, if you don't know how to manage it, it will, yes, the key wear you down. Yeah. So I got out of the law business for a while, and instead, I decided I wanted to go find out. Number one, why did I burn out? And number two, how to heal it. And so I went and studied with a number of energy healers who were very, very conscious people. They were very, very aware. You might even say they were enlightened, but it was they were always teaching me and always telling me about whatever I'm experiencing on the outside is just a reflection of what's on the inside. And so it's not so much about somebody being right or somebody being wrong. It's just the world is a mirror to whatever is going on inside between our ears. Yeah, and it's not because it's we're seeing something that's not there, or we're not seeing something that is there. It's just simply, how do we process that information that comes in through our sense organs and goes into our amygdala, then the hippocampus and then to the rest of our brain to try to figure out and but it's well documented that the brain will see whatever the brain wants to See, and a lot of times it's not what the eyes see, because there are lots of experiments you can take with graphics and other things that are illusory. Because, you know, you can see these graphs or prints that look like a spiral that's going around and is moving, but it's actually circles. But the way our brain puts things together, it makes it move. And another way is sounds. If you don't know what a sound is? Your brain is going to make up a story about that sound. And it could be either That's the sound of a frog, or it could be the sound of a somebody getting attacked. It could be the sound of whatever your brain it has to put a label on it, because that's the way the brain has been wired over our couple of hundreds of 1000s of years of evolution. That's how we manage to stay alive, because we make up a story about stuff, and if we're accurate, we live. If we're not accurate, we don't. Yeah, so the a lot of people are very good at making up stories in their head about what they're seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, whatever, because a lot of lot of smells will have psychological responses in our brain. So you know the smell of baby's milk or the smell of mown grass, or, you know smell of something rank, you always will have an instant story about what you just smell. And so when I would spend long periods of time thinking about these things, contemplating them, trying to figure out, well, what does that mean for me? I mean, how does that? How will it looking at this change my life? And basically, what I learned is is that the more objective you can be, the less you make up stories about stuff, the more successful you can be, and the more happy you'll be. Because, for example, there's a term called Mind reading, where people will be listening to somebody talking, and in the back of their mind, they're making up a story about what that person means, or they're making up a story about, well, where is this guy going with this? And it's, you know, it's, it's the opposite of listening, because when listening, you're focusing on the words you're hearing, yes, and then when it's your turn to talk, you can respond appropriately, but most people are thinking while they're hearing and it totally colors their experience, because if they think that this person doesn't like them, then they're going to interpret whatever is being said a certain way. If they think that person does like them, then they will interpret it a completely different way. So it's fascinating to me how people can get the wrong idea about things, because it just is a story that their mind made up to try to explain to them why they're experiencing what they're experiencing. Michael Hingson  42:25 That's why I like to really say that I've learned so much from dogs, because dogs don't do it that way. And as I tell people, dogs don't trust unconditionally. They love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally, but dogs are open to trust, and they're looking for reasons to trust, and they also, by definition, tend to be more objective, and they react to how we react and how we behave and and I think there's so much to be learned by truly taking the time to observe a dog and how they interact with you and how you interact with them, and that's going to make a big difference in how they behave. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  43:11 Well, you could definitely see a difference in the dog's behavior if they've been traumatized. Michael Hingson  43:16 Oh, sure, that's a different story altogether. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  43:19 Yeah, I agree that dogs are extremely innocent. You know, they don't have an agenda. They just want to be loved, and they would, they want to love Michael Hingson  43:31 and they want to know the rules, and they then they're looking to us to tell them what we expect. And there are ways to communicate that too, yes. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  43:41 And you know you all have to is give as a great example of how we should treat each other. Is all you have to do is, you know, a dog will forgive you eventually. And if you're kind to a dog. A dog will just give his entire being to you. Yeah, and it because they don't have any Guile, they don't have any hidden agendas. They just want to be you know, they want to eat. They want to be warm. They want to have fun. They do want to have fun, and so if you treat them timely, you will have a friend for life. Michael Hingson  44:29 Yep, we adopted a dog. We cared for it for a while. It was a geriatric dog at Guide Dogs for the Blind who had apparently had never worked as a guide dog, and she had been mistreated and then sent back to Guide Dogs for the Blind. She was 12. The school was convinced she was totally deaf because she wouldn't react to anything. They dropped a Webster's Dictionary next to her, and she didn't react. But we took her and we started working with her, and. It took several months before she would even take a walk with Karen, and Karen in her, you know, in Karen's wheelchair, and this wonderful golden retriever walking next to her. But the more we worked with her, the more she came out of her shell. She wasn't deaf. I'm sure she was hard of hearing, but you could drop a dictionary and she'd react to it, and if you called her, she would come. But it is all about developing the relationship and showing that you care and they will react. And so she she lived with us for more than three years before she passed, but was a wonderful creature, and we were, we were blessed to have her. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  45:48 Well, go ahead. No, I was just going to comment that I've got three Pomeranians, and they run the place course. You know, it's there. It's amazing how a six pound dog can run your life, but Michael Hingson  46:03 you let them, but you still establish, but you still establish some rules and you know, but that's, that's, yeah, I have a cat who runs the place, but that's okay. Well, we have not talked about, and I do want to talk about it when I first started hearing from you, your emails were all signed, sir, James Gray Robinson, and I always was curious, and you eventually explained it to me. But why don't you tell us all about your title and and all of that? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  46:39 Well, since we last talked, I've had a promotion. Now I'm a baron, so it's Baron James Gray Robinson, Scottish, Baron of Cappadocia. But I belong to a royal order that's known as the Royal Order of Constantine, the great in st Helen, and it was established in 312, 312, 12. Ad, when Constantine, who was the emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire, conquered the Western Roman Empire, who it was brother who was the emperor of the Western Roman Empire, and they can then he consolidated the eastern and the western empires. And it was that way until 14 153 when they were defeated by the Solomon Turks. So for 1100 over 1100 years Well, let me back up. The most important battle in that war between the two brothers was the Battle of the Milvian Bridge, which was in Rome and Constantine awarded, rewarded 50 knights, 50 warriors, soldiers who fought on that campaign and carried the day against much superior forces. And he rewarded them by making them knights and giving them land in Turkey, in an area that's known as Cappadocia. And this, if you know anything about Turkey, there's an area which is honeycombed with caves that have been dug out over the millennia, and it's kind of like some body was doing some renovation work, and they broke through the floor, and they went into a cave system that would have been hand dug, and it goes down 17 layers, and it could house 30,000 people. But that was, that was Cappadocia and Constantine the Great charged these warriors with the with the duty to protect the Christian church, because that's because Constantine had converted to Christianity. His mother, Helen, was one of the driving forces in the early Christian church. She's the one that decided to build a cathedral on top of the the nativity, the manger, which is actually a grotto in Bethlehem, I've been there. I spent Christmas Eve there one year. And so the Christianity was just a fledgling religion, and he charged these nights and all successive nights, with the obligation to protect the Christians and to protect the churches. And so a lot of people credit the royal order with advancing the Christian religion. So it's been around since 312 and it's the oldest peerage and a peerage. Is a group of royalty that have knights. They have royalty like Dukes and nobles and that sort of thing. But if you look at other orders that we're aware of, the Knights of Balta didn't get established until about 1200 ad the Knights of the Templar nights, similar thing. They didn't get established till about 1000 years after we did. So it's a very, very ancient, very traditional order that focuses on helping abused women and traffic children. We have, you know, we have a lot of, you know, compassion for those people in the world, and so we are actively supporting those people all over the world. And then on the other side, we have the knights, and we have the women, equivalent of that are called dames, and then we have the nobles who are like barons and other ranks that go all the way up to a prince who is actually related To the King of Spain. So it's been a interesting history, but we can try, we can directly trace our lineage all the way back to 312 and what the you know, we have a couple of reasons for existing, one being the charitable, but also to honor people who have been successful and have accomplished a lot for other people and who care about their fellow man and women, so that we accept Anyone in eight different categories, everywhere from Arts to athletics to entrepreneurship to medicine to heroics. We have a number of veterans that were credible. Have incredible stories. We have a lot of A listers, movie stars, professional athletes, that sort of thing. Also philanthropy. I got in for philanthropy because I've given a lot of money over my life to help people all over the world, and that's one reason why I was awarded the Presidential Lifetime Achievement Award. But we're a group of people. We just today started a Royal Academy of Arts and Sciences because we want to help people all over the world learn things like finances and you arts and crafts and trades and so that people who are oppressed cultures that are in third world countries will be able to learn a good earn a good living, raise their status in life, and then learn how to go on and help other people. So that's very exciting. We've got a lot of things going on with the royal order that are we're growing very rapidly, where somebody said we're 1700 year old startup, but it's, you know, we've gone through some regime changes where people have died and there weren't any heirs, so they've had to go laterally to find somebody to take over. And that's where we are now. You know, interestingly enough, my sons will inherit my title, so it's a true royalty kind of thing, where it passes down by inheritance. But you know, we don't, you know we're, we're hundreds of people in our thing. It's like 300 people in our order right now. We'd like that to be 100,000 times that because we do good work and we foster principles of charity, silvery and honesty, so that we're trying to change the culture around us to where people don't take offense in everything that they're in a society that supports each other and that people can feel safe knowing that there's they have a brother or sister that will support them. Michael Hingson  54:57 Definitely fascinating. I was not familiar with it at all. All until you and I check, yes. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  55:03 Well, it's amazing that me. I guess you have to be somewhat of a history buff. Yeah, and there, and there are lots of service organizations like the Masons and the Shriners and every all the animal ones, the Moose Lodge, the beavers and all these people are doing, you know, charitable work. But not not. Many of them have a royal heritage that goes back to 312 right? So, and we do dress up like knights from time to time, and ladies, and we have swords and we have robes, and we have big parties, and we have gala events, and where we induct more people into our order, and it's all great fun, and it's, you know, and we raise money for charity. So it's a win, win situation. Cool, and it doesn't hurt having Baron on your resume. Michael Hingson  56:08 No, I am sure it doesn't well. I want to thank you for explaining that, and I want to thank you for being here again. This has been a lot of fun, and I'm glad that we had a chance to really talk about humor, which, which is more important, I think, than a lot of people realize. And again, if people want to reach out to you, how do they do that? Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  56:31 My website is James Gray robinson.com Michael Hingson  56:36 There you go. Easy to spell, easy to get to. So I hope people will do that. And again, I hope that you all enjoyed today, and that you will let me know that you enjoyed it. Please feel free to email me at Michael h i at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, please give us a five star rating. Go off and read history and learn about the royal order. I think that's probably relevant and important to do as well. And again, if anyone knows anyone who ought to be a guest on the podcast, please let us know. Introduce us. Give us a rating of five stars wherever you're listening. And again, James, I just want to thank you for being here. Excuse me, sir. James. Barron, James, really appreciate you being here, and we'll have to do it again. Sir James Gray Robinson, Esq  57:24 Well, Michael, my hat's off to you. I think you're doing amazing work. I think you're helping a lot of people. You have a great podcast I've gone on your website or your YouTube, and it's a lot of fun. And I think you're doing a great service for people. Michael Hingson  57:45 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

I really enjoyed this conversation with Natalie and her mother, Mary, because it reminded me how an unstoppable mindset is often built quietly, over time, through creativity, learning, and persistence. Together, they share what it has been like to navigate life across generations while facing learning disabilities, health challenges, workplace adversity, and the constant need to adapt. We talk about Natalie’s journey with attention deficit disorder and anxiety, how creative outlets like baking, art, music, and storytelling helped her find focus and confidence, and why returning to school later in life became an act of self-trust rather than fear. Mary’s story adds another powerful layer. She reflects on growing up with low self-esteem, navigating male-dominated workplaces, and dealing with sexual harassment long before there were systems in place to address it. As a mother, artist, and professional, she shares what it means to keep moving forward while supporting her daughter’s growth. Throughout our conversation, we explore accessibility, creative entrepreneurship, lifelong learning, and why accommodations and understanding still matter. I believe you will find this episode both honest and encouraging, especially if your own path has been anything but linear. Highlights: 00:00 – Hear how creativity and resilience shaped an unstoppable mindset across two generations.08:35 – Learn how attention deficit disorder and anxiety changed the way focus, learning, and confidence developed.14:33 – Discover why stepping away from a demanding career can open the door to new growth.21:23 – Understand how workplace sexual harassment leaves lasting effects long after it happens.35:16 – See why protecting and celebrating local artists became a personal mission.59:09 – Learn why accessibility, accommodations, and empathy still matter in everyday life. About the Guest: Mary Dunn: Mary was born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA.  She was the only child of Norman and Lucille Rump.  At a young age, she liked to draw and as she grew older she enjoyed painting.  Her first painting was in oil and Mary was eleven years old.  However, because of the expense of art supplies, it was difficult to pursue a continuous endeavor in that particular form of art. While in high school, nothing really exciting happened as Mary was on the shy side.  She didn’t belong to any groups and she really just wanted to graduate.  She graduated in the upper third of her class.  The most momentous part of the graduation was that Jeff Goldblum was also a graduate of her class. After graduation, Mary continued her education at The Pittsburgh Beauty Academy.  There she studied cosmetology and acquired a teacher license.  Although she never taught, she did work at a few different shops and also managed a shop.  These experiences helped Mary to become less shy. At that time, she met her first husband and had two children.  The marriage lasted for eleven years, and Mary was left with two small children.  Mary realized that her background in cosmetology would not be sufficient to raise two small children. She decided to go to college. With the support of her parents, she was accepted to attend Carlow College which is now Carlow University.  There she studied business and minored in theology.  She almost minored in art, but she needed one more credit to have that as a minor.  It was important for her to graduate in order to take care of her children.  While in college she belonged to several organizations.  One organization was an honor society called Delta Epsilon Sigma.  There she became an assistant chair of the organization.  The second organization was OASIS.  The organization was for non-tradition students.  She was vice-president during her senior year at Carlow.  She graduated in 1991 cum laude. After Carlow, she found her first employment opportunity working the Equitable Gas Company as a “Technical Fieldman”.  In this position, Mary would draft pipeline installations, work up costs for those installations, and fill in for supervisors when they went on vacations.  The job was difficult as it had usually been filled by men prior to her.  She was thrust into a job that she learned on her own and was subject to sexual harassment.   At that time, sexual harassment was not spoken about.  Mary didn’t even realize that her peers were doing these things to her.  When she supervised union personnel, they were nice and valued her expertise.  However, when she returned to the office, more harassment continued. During that period, Mary decided to get a Master’s Degree and enrolled in Carnegie Mellon’s Heinz school of Public Management.  Her classes were very valuable as she learned about leadership, information systems, and marketing communications.  She graduated in 1996 with distinction.  Even though after she graduated from CMU, she continued to be sexual harassed.  She thought it might be a good idea to document the issues that made her position difficult.  She began to take notes on these incidents.  When she went to Human Resources, Mary was told that she should confront these people and tell them how she was feeling.  Mary couldn’t do that because she felt it would make matters worse.  She applied for another position within the company.  In 1997, Mary became Program Manager of Energy Technology. While there, Mary developed and implemented a marketing plan to promote the use of alternative fuels.  As a Program Manager, Mary became a member of Pittsburgh Region Clean Cities which focused on alternative fueled vehicles.  During this time, she became a board member and focused on grants and wrote the Pittsburgh Region Clean Cities Newsletter. In 1999, her position was eliminated at Equitable.  In some ways, Mary was relieved about the elimination, but in other ways, it was the first time this ever happened to her.  She was now remarried and was concerned about her children. It was very scary. Thankfully, Mary was not unemployed for long.  She was hired at Southwestern Pennsylvania Commission as a Transportation Planner.  In this position she implemented a newly designed client tracking system of their products and services that helped to increase revenue. Additionally, she worked on a communication plan to implement branding and crisis communications. Eventually, Mary became a Marketing/Communication Specialist for Southwestern Pennsylvania Communications.  She was responsible for multi-media communications connected with branding. Mary designed logos for special projects, arranged special affairs, open houses and conferences.  She remained a part of Pittsburgh Region Clean Cities.   Mary additionally prepared presentations for executive management to deliver regarding the Joseph A. James Memorial Excellence in Local Government Achievement Award that recognizes a municipal government elected or appointed official in any local government, agency, or Council of Government for a lifetime of exemplary governance or management. Unfortunately, a new Executive was hired to replace the past Executive who had passed away.  Because of this, our whole department was eliminated. After Southwestern, Mary was hired as the Manager of Administration and Human Resources for THE PROGRAM for Female Offenders.  While at THE PROGRAM, Mary was responsible for maintaining the policies and daily operations in THE PROGRAM.  She implemented a cost effective foodservice program, introduced staff ID cards and implemented the Windows NT network server and computer security using a Digital Subscriber Line which is a type of high-speed internet connection that uses existing copper telephone lines to provide internet access to three PROGRAM facilities. Additionally, Mary implemented a human resource database for directors and managers that targeted specific employment information. Mary maintained safety equipment and introduced a safe evacuation plan for her building.. Unfortunately, because THE PROGRAM was grant based and when it was time to acquire grant money much of the previous grants were not renewed and Mary lost her job.  Mary eventually was hired by Roach and Associates, Inc. as a Project Manager. In this position, she negotiated oil and gas leases for exploration and productions of future gas wells in Clearfield County Pennsylvania.  During this time, Mary was responsible for permitting activities with the state, county and federal agencies as well as prepared training seminars to meet pipeline safety regulations as per U.S. Department of Transportation, CFR49, Parts 192-193. Mary authored documentation regarding pipeline regulations for various housing authorities and gas production companies within Pennsylvania, West Virginia and New York.  Besides working at Roach, Mary became part of the Transition Team for Peduto for Mayor of Pittsburgh.  That was such a memorable experience as my team focused on some of the issues facing the newly elected Mayor. It was nice to be a part of change. After working ten years at Roach and Associates, Inc., Mary decided it was time to retire in 2015. While working at Roach, Mary began dabbling in art again.  It had been quite a while since college and painting.  But she began to work in pastels and eventually more in the line of acrylic painting.  She became president of the Pittsburgh Pastel Artist League.  She no longer is president of that group.  Mary now belongs to the Pittsburgh Society of Artists where she was juried into the group.  She has had her work display at The Galaxie in Chicago,  Pittsburgh Technical Institute, Monroeville Library, Gallery Sim, Boxheart Gallery, Southern Allegheny Museum of Art, Saville Gallery in Maryland and various other galleries around Pittsburgh.  Her Study in Pastels won an Award of Excellence from Southern Allegheny Museum of Art.  Mary also came in second place in the Jerry’s Artarama Faber Castel Contest. As time went on, Mary decided to focus more on her art work and began teaching students how to paint with Acrylic.  She also began a YouTube channel, Pittsburgh Artist Studio, where she gave free art lessons in acrylic to future artists around the country.  Unfortunately, Mary developed chronic back issues, and she had to give up her teaching.  She has had two back operations to alleviate the pain, but the second operation really didn’t help.  It has caused more painful issues.  Therefore, it is difficult for her to paint a long period of time.  Currently, Mary devotes her time to illustrating her oldest daughter’s books for children.  The books are a series about a little boy’s adventures in his life.  Her books can be found on Amazon under her name “Nicole Leckenby”.  Additionally, she has illustrated a book for her younger daughter, Natalie Sebula, entitled “The Many Colors of Natalie”. In conclusion, now that Mary is retired, she has had more time to work on different art projects a little at a time.  She lives with her husband Steve and two dogs Grumpy and Sally.  She belongs to a group of wonderful women who review Bible Psalms each week. Since my minor in theology, I do enjoy reading various books on different religious subjects.  I am thankful for each day that I have and continue to work on the gifts God has given me. Natalie Belin: I am focusing on the arts. I am a creator with an ambitious attitude. I have no problem thinking BIG and dreaming BIG. While everyone else stays inside the lines, I boldly color outside the lines. Natalie resides near Pittsburgh, PA. She is 40 years old and loves adventures. Within these 40 years Natalie has experienced highs and lows. However, during the low points she was like water: adaptable, resilient, and always finding a way through. At toddler age, it was brought to the attention that she had high pressure in her eyes. However, nothing was really done about it because of her age. Typically, high pressures occur in older adults. After many years, one eye doctor took it seriously.  He prescribed eye drops and finally recommended a laser technique to open the tear ducts.  This alleviated the high pressure and since no eye drops have been needed. In 5 grade, she was diagnosed with attention deficit disorder. Her mother, Mary Dunn advocated for her until someone listened, and her teachers realized it was a real problem. Steps were taken to help Natalie focus more.  As she grew older, it was important to do activities that helped her focus such as cheerleading and possible careers in culinary. Because of the importance of focusing, Natalie decided that culinary arts would be beneficial.  Natalie graduated in October of 2004 from the Pennsylvania Culinary Institute with an associate’s degree in Specialized Technology Le Cordon Bleu Program in Patisserie & Baking.  While there, she was elected class president. The Pennsylvania Culinary Institute offered externships to various prestigious areas to hone the craft.  Natalie’s externship was at the Greenbrier Resort in White Sulpher Springs where she was ultimately hired. However, Natalie decided to return to Pittsburgh after a car accident. Natalie continued to work as a pastry chef for about five years. After, she decided to further her education, and Natalie graduated in December of 2023 from the University of Pittsburgh with a Bachelor of Arts in Humanities. Some of her academic achievements are National Society of Collegiate Scholars, National Society of Leadership and Success, Alpha Sigma lambda-Alpha Chi Chapter at the University of Pittsburgh, Delta Alpha PI Honor Society. During her academic life, Natalie became an Emmy nominated producer for Pitt to the Point (a class focusing on the news as well as behind the scenes of a news/magazine program that covers the City of Pittsburgh, the University of Pittsburgh regional campuses as well as national and international events.) Currently, Natalie is in a Graduate Certification Program which is also at the University of Pittsburgh. The Certification is in Sports, Entertainment, and Arts Law (SEAL). She hopes to use this program as a steppingstone to complete her master’s degree in Sports, Entertainment, and Arts Law. In addition to the SEAL certification, one could say that Natalie is a woman of many colors.  She works full-time as an Administrator for the Rehabilitation Science Program in the School of Health and Rehabilitation Sciences at the University of Pittsburgh. This is where she provides administrative support for general program management, advising and faculty. Another aspect of Natalie’s many colors is writing.  Several years ago, she wrote a poetry book called The Many Colors of Natalie. This is a book for 18+. There are several illustrations in the book that complement the poems. Mary Dunn, Natalie’s mother, created the illustrations. In August of 2020, Natalie launched The Many Colors of Natalie Blog. She started this blog to give a new perspective to Pittsburgh other than being known for sports. This allows individuals the ability to educate themselves on different variations of Pittsburgh’s art or artists as well as bringing awareness to the art scene. Natalie’s motto is Love Art & Support Your Local Artist! Additionally, Natalie has been a model/actor since 2012. Most of her work consists of being an extra in various music videos and movies. Furthermore, she is an ambassador for Ambassador Sunglasses and Just Strong Clothing. Just Strong Clothing’s Mission “We are a clothing brand on a mission to empower those who are not just strong for a girl, they are just strong. Whether you are an experienced lifter, a new starter or have simply overcome great adversaries in your life, the JustStrong community are here to empower and motivate you to never give up.” “Ambassador was formed to extract, refine, and exhibit the marriage between what was and what will be in fashion culture. When wearing Ambassador, you break the mold of the mundane to embrace your unmatched individualism.” Besides being an ambassador, Natalie became a Creative Percussion Artist in 2020. “Creative Percussion is a family-owned business, established in 2018, and run by husband-and-wife team, Kevin and Cheri Feeney.” Her picture is on the site as a CP percussion artist. Not only is Natalie a musician, but she dabbles in various mediums in art. Her mixed media piece Peace, Love, and Woodstock is currently in the Woodstock Museum located in Saugerties, New York. “The purpose for the Woodstock Museum is: To gather, display, disseminate and develop the concept and reality of Woodstock, encompassing the culture and history of a living colony of the arts, with special emphasis placed on the exhibition of self-sustaining ecological technologies. To encourage and increase public awareness of Woodstock by providing information to the general public through cultural events, displays of artifacts, outreach programs, communication media events and personal experiences, and to contribute, as an international attraction, to the cultural life and prosperity of our region; and to engage in all lawful activities in pursuit of the foregoing purposes.” Lastly, Natalie and her mother Mary Dunn started a side hustle several years ago. Mother and Daughter Collaboration (vending show name) is a great opportunity for Natalie to showcase her entrepreneurial skills in addition to her art. Their Etsy name is Maker’s Collab Studio. In conclusion, Nat is excited for the future, and to see what is in store. She considers herself to be dynamic and resilient. Even those who know Natalie would say the same.  Regardless of what she has been through, she keeps going. She realizes that the tough times eventually do end. In self-reflection, the “tough time” may have been a life lesson, or a possible steppingstone to what’s next in her life. Only time will tell. Natalie will always be a supporter of the arts, and she will always create in some way. As Natalie ages, she sees the importance of advocating for the disabled. At one point in her life, she was embarrassed about sharing her learning disability because she felt that we live in a society where having a disability isn’t necessarily welcomed and is frowned upon. Do not fear individuals who need special accommodations.  Instead, educate yourself. Try being that individual who needs certain accommodations, and the accommodations are not provided or easily accessible. Progress has been made in educating the ignorant. However, there is more work that needs to be done. Ways to connect with Natalie & Mary**:** Blog website: Home - The Many Colors of Natalie Personal website: Home | natalie-sebula-belin Book of poetry: The Many Colors of Natalie: Written by: Natalie Belin - Kindle edition by Dunn, Mary, Leckenby, Nicole, Merlin, Grace, Palmieri, David. Literature & Fiction Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com. Facebook: (1) Facebook Instagram: Natalie Sebula (@themanycolorsofnatalie) • Instagram photos and videos Etsy: MakersCollabStudio - Etsy About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset. We're doing something that we've done a few times before, and we get to do it again today. We have two people as guests on unstoppable mindset this time, mother and daughter, and that'll be kind of fun they have, between them, lots of experiences in art, but in all sorts of other kinds of things as well. They live in the Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania area, and I'm not going to say a whole lot more, because I want them to tell their stories. So I want you to meet Natalie bellen and her mother, Mary Dunn. So Natalie and Mary, both of you, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  02:03 Well, thank you for Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  02:03 having us. Yes, we're happy to be here. Thank you. Michael Hingson  02:06 Well, let's see. We'll start with mom. Why don't you tell us something about the early Mary growing up, and you know what? What life was like growing up? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  02:18 Well, growing up, I was born in Pittsburgh. I was actually born on in the south side of Pittsburgh, and it was called St Joseph Hospital, and now it's an apartment building, but we lived here. I've lived here all my life. I lived in Hazelwood until I was about the age of three. Then we moved to Whitaker, Pennsylvania, and now I'm in West Mifflin, Pennsylvania. So it's like we hopped around a bit. Growing up in my family was a little bit difficult. I had been bullied quite a bit by my cousins, so it kind of like left you know how it does with bullying. You know, it's not like today. Of course, I didn't want to go out and do something terrible to myself. It's just that it left my self esteem very low, and I just kind of stayed and was by myself most of the time. So until I grew up, I graduated from high school, I went to West Midland, North High School, I graduated in the same class as Jeff Goldblum. Although I didn't know him, I knew that he was very talented. I thought he was more talented on a piano than he was with acting, but he is still he's still very good with the piano, with his jazz music, and that's basically it. I've been in West Mifflin now for she's been quite a bit Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  03:49 since I was in seventh grade, and now I'm 40 years old, so we've been here a long time. Michael Hingson  03:54 Yeah, so it's sort of like 3027 years or so, or 28 years? Yes, well, Natalie, tell us about you when it was like growing up in and all of that. Sure. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  04:08 No problem. So I grew up in Whitaker for the most part, my yearly eight years, like until about fifth grade, I guess about like fifth grade, and then we moved, well, we just moved to a different house and whatever. Yeah, that when we moved for the second time, it was more in a neighborhood with kids, so that was, like, a lot more fun. And we played like tag and all that. So that my early years, I remember that like playing tags, swimming, I love, like skiing on the water, jet skis, stuff like that. Definitely. I loved running around. And I loved dance as a kid too, that was a lot of fun. Michael Hingson  05:00 Okay, and so you went to high school? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  05:05 Oh, yeah, I went, Yes. I went to West Midland area high school, and I graduated in 2003 in 2004 I graduated from the Pennsylvania Culinary Institute as a pastry chef and part of the things that I had to do to graduate, I had to do, like, about a six month internship where I resided in white sulfur springs, West Virginia, and I got to do my externship at the Greenbrier, and that was pretty exciting, because it has quite the history. There. People love it there for Well, one of the things that sticks in my mind is Dorothy Draper, who decorated that resort. Her taste is very cool, because she went bold, like with flower print and stripes mixed together for wallpaper. There's stories in history behind the sulfur water there. And then most people might know the Greenbrier for their golf courses, for the golf course actually, or in history about the sulfur water Michael Hingson  06:26 now, you had high eye pressure for a while after you were born, right? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  06:31 Oh, yes, the eye pressures. That's quite the story, let me tell you so at a very young age, like different doctors and eye doctors that I went to. They knew that I had high pressures, but they didn't seem like it was a big issue. But my mom had the inkling that I needed to go to a different doctor when I was like, I guess you Middle School, Michael Hingson  06:58 yeah, yeah, you were about now, was there a lot of pain because of the pressure. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  07:02 I didn't even know was happening, so I wasn't in discomfort or anything. So they said, don't they kind of dismissed it. So I wasn't worried about it, Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  07:14 Neither was I. But you know, like eventually we did go to a doctor and he said, Oh, my goodness, you have these high pressures. And it's, it could be like glaucoma. We don't ever see that in a young person, you know, they haven't ever seen anything like that. He was just amazed by it. And go ahead, you can finish this. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  07:36 Dr Al, I have so much respect for him, because he truly took care of my eyes for a very long time. I started seeing him in middle school, and I saw him up until, like my late 30s, and he I would see him quite frequently, because he would always monitor those pressures, because he knew the importance of that and how they could damage my eyes and I can lose my sight. So he always had me do like fields test eye pressure checks, because your pressures in your eyes can fluctuate throughout the day. So I would come in in like different times of the day to make sure they're not super high and stuff like that. He would prescribe me on different eye pressure medications like eye drops, because the they like the eye drops would help my eyes to it to regulate the pressures to a certain point, and then my eyes would get used to them, it seemed like, so then we would have to go to a different prescription. I caused that doctor a lot of stress, I think, because he was always thinking about my case, because it was so rare. And he went to a conference, actually, and brought that up at a conference, and at that conference, they said for me to get the laser, laser procedure done to Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  09:10 open the tear ducts. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  09:12 Yeah, yeah. And luckily, that solved it. Michael Hingson  09:18 Wow, so you so the the tear ducts were, were small or not draining properly, correct? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  09:26 Yeah, it was points where, like, if I wanted to cry, no tears would come Michael Hingson  09:31 out, no tears would come out. Well, yeah, yeah. Then you also discovered, or somehow you you learned about being Attention Deficit Disorder. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  09:45 Yeah, so, um, when I was from like one or like, from kindergarten to third grade, I went to a Catholic school, and I didn't seem like there was anything. Being really wrong. But then when I went to a public school, I was really having a hard time grasping the material, and I would get really frustrated when I was at home trying to do the homework and I just wasn't understanding. I believe the educators there said like I was also behind, which could have been part of the issue. But my mom would like try to help me with my homework, and it was like Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  10:28 it was hard. She would, she would get so frustrated and throw the papers and just, you know it, because it was very difficult for her, and we really couldn't under I couldn't understand why. You know this was happening, because my, my other daughter, I never had issues like that with so we had, I guess we were told to go. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  10:53 I think that was Miss Lenz in fifth grade. Yeah, she had me get tested for a learning disability, and with all the testing that was done with that, they said that I had attention deficit disorder. So whenever that diagnosis was made, I was able to get like teacher teaching aids to help me through tests to help me understand the curriculum a little bit better. Tutors did the counselor Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  11:28 I well they I did take her to get tested outside of school, and that's they actually told me some things that could help her with this. And then I went to the teachers, and the teachers, some of them, didn't, like, actually take this into consideration. They, they didn't really realize attention deficit disorder at that time. It was new. And so they, they kind of said, well, we don't, we don't believe in that or whatever. And I said, Well, can you just have her, like, sit up front, because she would pay attention more and she would focus better, because that's the problem she couldn't focus on. So it took a while, and then finally, the principal in the fifth grade, he had a meeting with the teachers us, and he actually was the one who brought that to their attention, that this is a problem, that attention disorder, you know, does occur, and some of it is hyper, just hyperactive disorder. So it luckily she didn't have that part of it, but it was the focusing, and we just got her more involved in things that she could learn how to focus. They recommended cheerleading, they recommended culinary school, and I think that really helped her to learn more on focusing. But she still has anxieties and things like that. It's still Michael Hingson  13:03 it's still there. So why culinary school? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  13:07 So that is such a fun question. When my grandma used to watch me, she was very particular on what I was like watching. She didn't want me to watch anything like super crazy or out there. So I would always watch cooking shows, and I thought he was so unique, the different recipes and everything that these chefs were making. And I love some of their personalities, like emerald, he was always so hyper and loud, so fun. And it was interesting to see the different types of foods that they were creating that, like certain countries make. You know, I love Spanish food. It's so good. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  13:55 She decided not to even get into that part. That was the thing. She wanted to be a pastry chef, yeah, Michael Hingson  14:02 something to be said for chocolate chip cookies. But anyway, go ahead. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  14:07 Yeah, she makes a good one, too. At Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  14:10 this point, I don't even know why. What drew me to baking more than culinary I think the two different styles are cooking are very interesting, because like with cooking, you don't have to be so exact with the measurements and everything with certain things like the spices and stuff. If you don't like rosemary, you don't have to put it in there. But with baking, it's definitely more scientific. Have to be more accurate with the measurements of certain ingredients, like baking soda, because it's lavender and like, altitude will totally screw up your baking Yes, so many reasons that elevation is so important. So yeah, so Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  14:59 mine's to it. Or whatever, you know? Yeah, Michael Hingson  15:01 so you went and did an externship, and then what did you do? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  15:06 So with the externship, I was there for a little bit over six months, I was officially hired, and I graduated from culinary school, but, um, I got in a car accident. So that's like, why left? So I was in baking professionally for about a total five years, and then I went back to school. Sorry, that's grumpy. Can you hear him barking? 15:36 I'm sorry. I'll go. No, no, it's fine. Michael Hingson  15:41 So why did you leave culinary? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  15:43 Um, I was just ready for a change. Because I started working professionally when I was like 19, so by my mid 20s, I was just ready to go back. I mean, that is a very demanding field. You're working several hours. Um, you're working with all types of personalities, certain pressures, long days sometimes. And I was just ready to see what else was out there for me. Michael Hingson  16:12 So you went back to school to study, Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  16:15 yes, so my when I graduated in 2023 with my undergraduate degree, it was in humanities, and it focused on three areas of art, music, studio, arts and theater. The main focus was theater, okay? Michael Hingson  16:39 And so, what did you do with that? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  16:42 So with that degree, I did several different things. I wrote a poetry book, which I provided a link so people can access if they would like to purchase it. I created a blog in 2020 called the many colors of Natalie, and I created a blog to help bring a different perspective to Pittsburgh, other than just it being a city for sports, because there's a lot of talented artists out there, and plus, like during a pandemic, that caused a lot of strain on a lot of things, and I was really worried about certain venues that were iconic here closing and completely wiping out the whole art industry here, you know. So, um, with that too, I also, um, I was doing music at the time as a percussionist, and that's when I got introduced to creative percussion products, and I was using that with the different performances that I was doing. And I ended up being one of their artists featured on their page, website or website, yeah. Okay, yeah, and I also volunteered at a local dance studio called Lisa de gorrios dance, and I got to work with the younger kids, and I did that for a couple years. So that was interesting to see what it was like to teach and put on performances. It's a lot of you get to see the behind the scenes and time management and stuff like that. Also, I'm thinking here for a second, sorry. How about, oh, we, my mom and I created an Etsy shop. So we started a few years ago, called Mother Daughter collaboration, a vending that was like our vending show name, and we did that for Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  18:56 we've been doing that for a while. Yeah, we, we put different products up. I kind of tend to do my artwork, and she puts up some things also in art, we have, we have interesting things like CD, telephone, covers, cases, purses, you know. And we're working on a new product now to to put on to the Etsy shop this year. We didn't do many vending shows. I had surgery last last year on my back, and I had a hard time recovering because it was pretty expensive. So we're hoping to get that going again this year, or towards the end of the year, when the Christmas shows start happening, Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  19:47 we did, um, create an Etsy shop called makers collab studio, and we were focusing more on that this year. Um, so we do have, like, a variety of different products. Um. Um, which I also provided the link to the Etsy shop. If anybody wants to check out our products and what we have, that'd be great if you stop checked out that. Michael Hingson  20:11 Yeah, my late my late wife, was a quilter and tried to run an Etsy shop, but people didn't want to pay any kind of real prices for handmade quilts, because they just thought that quilts should be, like, 50 or $75 and that just wasn't realistic. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  20:30 But, well, that's, that's the trouble. What we're seeing also, yeah, we do, I do, like, we do t shirts and things like that too. But people it. I don't think people realize what's behind the whole process. No, or they don't care. No, you know, I mean, there's a lot involved as far as your equipment. When it was covid, I was, well, I'm retired, but I was working part time, and I was able to, you know, get what is it, you know, workers, whatever, yeah, you know, yes. And with that money, I actually bought like things to do, T shirts, like the heat press and different parts to like a cricket that we can do things with. And so, you know, like the things that you know, you still have to buy supplies, even with my artwork, it's so expensive anymore, when I first started back in, you know, when my kids grew up and they were on their own, where I really focused on it, and I can't believe the expense of it. You know, it's just, it's everything's expensive these days. So, yeah, really watch what you're doing and how you approach it too. You know, you can't spend a lot of money on things. We don't have, like, a whole backlog of products. I mean, we just do a few things and hope that the things that we make are sellers, you know, Michael Hingson  22:05 yeah, well, and I hope it, it can is more successful for you going forward. That's a useful thing. You You've done a lot Mary with with art over the years, but you've also had other, other kinds of jobs where you've worked for some pretty large companies, and you've been reading your bio, you faced some sexual harassment issues and things like that, haven't you? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  22:29 Yes, yes, that was difficult boy, and I didn't realize that at the time I went to college late in life because I was getting divorced and I needed a job that I could take care of my family, my girls, and so I decided to go to college and my my mom and dad watched my kids while I went to school, which was nice. And the first job I had was with the gas company here, and I was called a technical Fieldman. And what I would do is, like, I would draw pipeline installations and the and sometimes I would fill in as a supervisor. When I filled in first as a supervisor, it was great. I mean, the guys were decent. We always came to a conclusion. I always trusted what they're you know what they would say about pipeline? Because I knew nothing about pipeline. It was all new to me. But when I would go back to the office, it was, it was just like crazy things that would happen. I mean, I won't go into detail, and I started writing these things down because I thought this just doesn't seem right, that these people are saying these things to me or doing these things to me. I had a nice little book of all these incidents that happened, and I went to the HR department, and they wanted me to confront these people in my office, to tell them how I felt. Well, that, to me, would have made everything worse, because that's just that, you know, kind of work environment. So luckily, I was, I was promoted into a job that lasted two years, and then my job was eliminated. So that was my first, my first thing with that was the only time I really had sexual harassment that was really bad. I went on to another which was the program for female Well, I worked for a university for a while, and then I went into the program for female offenders, which was really interesting work. I enjoyed that it was like people that were out on that needed to, that were like drug addicts and and they were looking for a new way. They had been in jail and this incarcerated, and they came into this. Program they had that was part of their incarceration or parole. They had to do this, this program, and that was so interesting. I mean, it was just heartfelt, because you just saw these people that were trying so hard to make a good life for themselves and not to go back to their original way of living. And unfortunately, that was all grant money. And that job ended also so that, you know, and I was a transportation planner, I did a lot of things, and then I ended up going back into the gas industry. I worked for an engineer, and we were working in the production side of everything. So he had drove to you wells, and we had leases, and I took care of those. And I liked that job for about 10 years. I stayed there, and then I I retired. I was getting tired of it at that point. Michael Hingson  26:02 Yeah. Why was your first why was your first job at the original gas company eliminated? Or when you were promoted and you said it was eliminated, yeah? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  26:10 Well, that's what I like to know why it was eliminated. I think sometimes that job was just to keep me quiet. That's how I felt. I mean, I, I they, they knew that I was upset and that I didn't like what was happening. And I think it was just to keep me quiet, and they realized that that job wasn't going to last, but it was a marketing job. We were using different ways to use gas, alternative fuel vehicles, fuel cells, you know. So it was an interesting job, too, but it it didn't really have the supervisor we had was not really a person that pushed the product, you know. So that could have been the reason, too, that they eliminated a lot of that. Yeah, so I wasn't the only one that went I mean, there was another person in that at that time, and eventually that whole department was eliminated. Now that gas company, they sold all that off, and another gas company took it over and equitable. Still is EQT here, and they work, I think at this point, they work with the leases and things like that, and horizontal drilling, they call it. Michael Hingson  27:38 So now that you're retired, what do you do? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  27:41 Well, for a while there, Michael Hingson  27:44 in addition to Etsy, yeah, for Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  27:47 a while, I was actually doing hair. I was my first, my first, I guess, employment type, or whatever. I went to beauty school, and I became a cosmetologist, and I also became a teacher in cosmetology. So when I first became all that the money wasn't so great. I worked my first job. I was so excited I had this job because I thought I was going to be making millions. You know, they they really pump you up in in beauty school that you're going to really succeed and you're going to make this money. Well, my first job, I worked over 40 hours at that job, and I only got $15 in my first pay. It was like we had to stay there the whole time until everyone was finished working. So the girls that had their clientele that they worked the whole day and into the evening, like till eight o'clock. Maybe we had to stay till eight o'clock. Even though I didn't have anybody to do. I might have had one person that day, yeah, so that that wasn't too I just worked at that for a few years, and then I decided to leave and take care of my family. Yeah, well, that that I went back to it when I retired, and it had changed significantly, making pretty good money. I was only working three days a week, and I did pretty well. But then my back. I had the issues with my back, and I couldn't go back to it, which really upset me. I really love that job. Michael Hingson  29:29 Well, things happen. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  29:31 Yeah, it does. You know, I'm happy not to stay at home. I figured now that I'm actually 73 years old now, so I think I I should retire Michael Hingson  29:47 and enjoy my life a little. Well. So Natalie, you graduated in 2023 and so then what did you start to do? And what are you doing now? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  29:57 So what I'm doing now is I'm. Still focusing on the Etsy shop, but I also got into a graduate certificate program, and this certificate is in sports entertainment and arts law, and I really hope to use this program as a stepping stone to complete my master's degree in the sports entertainment and arts law program. Michael Hingson  30:25 What exactly is a graduate certification program, as opposed to a master's degree? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  30:32 So that's a great question. So the certificate program is like a newer program, and it's like the only one in the world, I'm pretty sure, that focuses on sports, entertainment and art. So it's like a newer, more modern type of learning program. And this certificate is a great stepping stone, and for me to check it out before I actually go in to the master's program. This is, like, my second week, and I love it so far, and all these classes that I'm doing, and if I keep my grades up and everything, will apply to the master's program if I get in. Michael Hingson  31:15 Okay, well, so Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  31:20 less credits than, like, what you would need for a master's program, and it's less I don't need a textbook. I have these things called nutshells, where I'm pretty sure, like, I'll be studying different types of cases or something like that through that. So it's like online stuff. Michael Hingson  31:43 The Okay? And how long do you think it will take you to complete that Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  31:49 the certification program should be about a year, and it's all online, okay? Michael Hingson  31:55 And how, how long have you been doing it so far? Just two weeks. Oh, so next August, yeah, yeah, yeah. And the hope is then you can use that to go forward and actually work toward getting a master's degree. Which, which sounds pretty cool, yeah, for sure. What do you want to do with it once you get a master's degree? Well, like Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  32:20 all those points like sports entertainment and arts, I think is Pittsburgh is a great city to represent all of those. And I hope to help represent like clients, maybe do like to protect their works and them as an artist. And I would like to hopefully get into paralegal work. That's what I'm focusing on right now. Michael Hingson  32:47 So is school pretty much full time for you these days? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  32:51 No, it's still part time, and that's what I like love about this program, because, like all week, you'll be doing 10 hours outside of so I still work full time as an administrator in the SHRS program, and I am the administrator for Rehabilitation Science. So yeah, it's great to have like, bosses and everything that support me in my educational journey, because that makes my life a lot easier too. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  33:26 Yeah, that's some great bosses. Michael Hingson  33:29 Well, it's good to have some people who tend to be a little bit more supportive. It helps the psyche when you get to do that. Yes, yeah. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  33:39 Because the one thing that I noticed with this program, it is definitely more manageable, because, like the undergrad program, I did enjoy the process. For most parts, some of it was really challenging. But the undergraduate program, it was really hard for me to get late night classes. Most of those classes that I had to take were I had to be in person, so like late classes were pretty hard to get, but my bosses allowed me to take earlier classes so I could help finish the program faster, but I just had to make up that time. Right? Michael Hingson  34:28 When did you discover that you had artistic talent? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  34:32 Um, I don't know if I ever really discovered that I had the talent, but I was very passionate at a young age, like when my mom was going back to school, I always loved watching her paint, because she had like the painting classes. I always thought so I like sit on the floor and watch her paint. And at a very young age, I was in the dance class. Do you remember the name? A France Dance School of Dance, France School of Dance. And I love dance class so much. I remember one time the dance school was closed because of a holiday, and I was, like, so upset, like, I didn't believe, like, the dance school was closed and I didn't understand, like, why I wasn't allowed to go. So they called the school and it went straight to, like, the answering machine so they could prove, like, it was closed and nobody was there. I was like, ready to show up. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  35:30 She wanted to go, yeah. She was just about three or four when she was taking the dance classes at that time. Yeah. But then it became on, you know that they both the kids were involved, but I couldn't afford it anymore. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  35:45 So dance is very expensive. Yeah? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  35:48 Well, you know, like, at that time too, I was going to school, and I didn't have much of a salary, and I was living with my parents, so, I mean, and they were retired, so it was, like, very tight. Yeah, right. Michael Hingson  36:04 Well, it nice to have an enthusiastic student, you know, Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  36:13 so true. Well, Michael Hingson  36:15 so you've created the many colors of Natalie blog, tell me about that. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  36:22 So I reach out to different artists that were that are located in Pittsburgh or at one time, working or living in Pittsburgh. So this is like musicians, photographers, actors and they, I I create questions for them, for them to answer in their own words, like advice that they would give, or funny stories that they had while working in the field. And that's that's the main point of the blog, because I want it to be a resource for people and for them to also see, like, why that genre is cool. And I think another reason that motivated me to create that blog is some people just don't see an importance to art, and I find that so offensive. Like, yeah, so I just wanted it to be as an educational type thing as well. Michael Hingson  37:28 How long has the blog been visible? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  37:33 So it's been visible for about five, six years now, five years, yeah, and I did over like 50 some posts. Michael Hingson  37:45 Do you do that with consistency? Or So do you have one, like, every week or every three weeks, or every month, or something like that? Or how does that work? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  37:53 So when I first started, I was consistent with the posts I don't ever leave my blog, like, not active for like a year. Like, I always try to post something, but it's a little more challenging to do a post. Like, every month, whenever I'm working, going to school, volunteering for different things, running the Etsy shopper, vending so I had to cut it back a little bit because that is just me running it. Michael Hingson  38:30 So you've also created a mixed media piece. First of all, what is a mixed media piece? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  38:35 You want to explain Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  38:36 the mixed media? Oh, well, a mixed media is like different mediums. It could be paint, it could be pictures, and it's posted on a board, a canvas, or whatever it can be in a journal. You know, you just use various types of mediums. It could be using lace, it could be using fabric, it could be using, like I said, pictures, paper, and they call it mixed media. So she decided she wanted to create a mixed media. I had a huge canvas that was given to me. It was like 36 by 36 giant. It was huge, and I knew I couldn't do anything on that, because I don't paint big. I like to paint on smaller canvas, like an eight and a half by 11, or eight and a half by 14. So she, she decided she wanted to use that Canvas for something. But you go ahead and tell them. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  39:38 So, um, whenever Woodstock had their 50th anniversary, and I believe that was around 2019 I had the opportunity to go to yaska's Farm and camp where the original campers from the very first Woodstock would stay in that. Campsite was like, right next to this yaska farms. So I took some pictures of it, like me with the yaska farm house. And so it was very inspirational to go to that because I was doing research on what Woodstock was, the original Woodstock. And what that was about, I talked to Uber drivers that were actually at the original Woodstock. Jimi Hendrix is one of my favorite musicians, and for him to not be there, I was like, so sad. Very sad. So with all the education experience. I needed to release that. And I took my mom, let me have that canvas, and like I created a mixed media giant collage, and I got that into the Woodstock Museum in Socrates, New York. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  41:01 Wow, it's actually there now, Michael Hingson  41:04 yep. How long has it been there? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  41:07 I believe got that in there? Yeah, about two years. Michael Hingson  41:13 Wow. So it's kind of almost a permanent piece there. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  41:17 I hope so. I hope they keep it there for sure. What? Michael Hingson  41:21 What prompted them to be interested in having it there. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  41:25 So I that piece was so giant, and I loved how it turned out, and I wanted that more than just in my house, my art pieces are very close to me, because that's like my soul and my work, and I want it out there to somebody who cares about it. So I reached out to Shelly nation, Nathan, because they, I believe, are the owners of the Woodstock Museum, and they were more than happy to have it. I had it shipped out there. And then, whenever the season was to reopen the museum, I went out there and visited it. And it's a very great it's a very cool place. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  42:10 Recommend, yeah, she, she was interviewed by them, also, right? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  42:14 Oh, yeah, we did go on a radio station. And that was also a cool experience, because I was never on a radio show at that time. Cool. Michael Hingson  42:25 Well, that's pretty exciting. I have not been to the Woodstock Museum, so that might be something to explore at some point when I get get back there next that'd Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  42:35 be great. Yeah, Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  42:37 all those things like, you know, like I grew up during that period, of course, I didn't go to the Woodstock. Original Woodstock wouldn't let me do that. I was only 16 at the time, and but I mean, you know, like, like looking back at that and and seeing how all those people were there, and not nothing terrible happened, you know, I mean, hundreds of 1000s of people, and nobody got hurt. Well, they might have passed out, maybe from things, but nobody was, like, shot or killed or and like today. I mean, you can't you're so afraid to do anything today, you don't know what's going to happen. And it just was a different time. And the musicians that were there. I mean, that music was is still good today. You know, it's it, it hasn't faded. And I wonder sometimes about today's music, if it will continue to be popular in years to come, or if it's just going to fade out. You know, we won't know that, and so well I won't be here, probably Michael Hingson  43:44 we won't know for a while anyway, yes, but I did hear on a radio station a rebroadcast of a lot of the Woodstock concerts that was kind of Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  43:56 fun. Yes, yes. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  44:00 Sorry I didn't mean to cut you. Go ahead. Go ahead. When I was talking to like the Uber drivers and stuff like that, and people who were at the original Woodstock, it seems like they were reliving that experience when they were telling the stories. I mean, it was great. Michael Hingson  44:15 Yeah. Well, you play creative percussion. First of all, what is pre creative percussion? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  44:23 So I actually have that written in some notes, what it actually is. So do you mind if I read off my notes? Michael Hingson  44:30 You're welcome to however you want to answer, perfect. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  44:33 So I was asked to be a creative percussion artist in 2020 and creative percussion is a family owned business established in 2018 and run by husband and wife team, Kevin and Sherry Feeney. They're great. I've had the opportunity to talk to them very much a couple of times, and my pictures also on the site. Um. Uh, under like my stage name now is a Bulla. So if you scroll down spell that it's S, E, B as a boy, u as in unicorn, L, L as in Len and a is an apple. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  45:16 Okay, what types of things, kinds Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  45:18 of there's various types of shakers that I played because of various bands that I was in, I was the percussionist, so I played tambourine and stuff. But like, they have uniquely shaped shakers, like there's the hatch shakers, which I love them. They had a baseball shaker, and these little golf ball shakers, and they all carry different sounds, and they really blended differently with the type of song that I was playing was playing, yeah, so it's cool, Michael Hingson  45:53 yeah, so interesting. So you you play them as part of being with a band, or what Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  46:01 for the most part, yeah, sometimes there was an acoustic band or just like a full band, and either way, I tried to have those pieces blend into the song. What I didn't learn when I was doing that is and an acoustic you really have to be on your game, because, like, if you mess up, like, people are gonna hear it more than if you're in a full band. So, yeah, right. Michael Hingson  46:38 So you do you still do that? Do you still play Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  46:42 at this time? I don't, um, just because I wanted to focus on other things, so I took a step back from that. Michael Hingson  46:51 Do you think you'll do more of it in the future, or Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  46:56 possibly, but like, that's how I am. I kind of just like, experience it, do it until I'm ready to move on to something else. Michael Hingson  47:04 So you flit, you flip from thing to thing, yeah, yeah, yeah. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  47:10 So, like, if you ever follow me, you might just see, like, me evolving and just trying other things. Michael Hingson  47:19 Well, you're adventurous. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  47:22 Yes, I love adventure. Michael Hingson  47:25 Nothing wrong with having an adventure in the world and getting to really look at things. So what are you doing now if you're not doing creative percussion and so on? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  47:38 Well, for the last couple months, I was helping my mom recover from like the back surgery. And then I was I was focusing on my blog, just really paying attention to that, getting certain interviews, and then schooling, getting ready to go into the certificate program. Michael Hingson  48:05 So you think you're gonna go ahead Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  48:09 and I'm setting up the Etsy shop. Michael Hingson  48:13 So you're pretty excited about seal, the sports entertainment, art and law. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  48:19 Yes, I'm very excited about that. I was very excited to get into the program. The professors are great. The whole programs like really good. The people involved in it, they seemed, they seem really organized and let me know what I need to do to get into the program. And they are really nice. If I have a question, they're happy to answer it. I love the curriculum, so I hope you go, Well, Michael Hingson  48:46 do you experience anything any more dealing with like attention deficit? Oh, 100% it still creeps up, huh? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  48:55 Well, it's more anxiety than anything. But like this program, I think, is to help calm my anxiety with just different things that are set up. And like, how responsive the professors are and how nice they are. But my goodness, when I was in my undergraduate program, like I was really pushing myself, and I would like, of like, when 2020, came around in the pandemic, I needed to talk to my doctor and get on meds, like I could no longer not do that without meds. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  49:29 Yes, she was, she was struggling. It was tough. Yeah. I mean, when I went for my Bachelor's, I I I wasn't working. She was working. When I went for my master's, I was working, but, and I know how hard that is, you know, trying to balance things, especially I was working at equitable at the time, and the things that I was going through and being, you know, filling in for supervisors was I. I was on call, like, 24 hours a day, and it, you know, like that was, I can see how difficult it is to do both. It's just, I know what she was going through there, and she goes through it, but she did well. She graduated sigma, sigma cum laude. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  50:17 Yeah, I did get some honorary, like accolades for like, whenever I graduated. So that was pretty exciting, because the hard work did pay off. Michael Hingson  50:29 What do you think about studying and attending classes virtually as opposed to physically being in the room? Hybrid learning? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  50:38 Some people may have an issue with that, but I personally, cause I was working full time and it was hard for me to get later classes, I preferred the online learning, but I understand, like some of the classes really did need me to be there, like the theater classes, and I was okay with that. I don't mind either, either or, but it just seems like online learning is more manageable. For me, it Michael Hingson  51:08 takes more discipline to to stick with it and focus on it, as opposed to being in the classroom. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  51:14 Um, yeah, I agree, but I think which, which is not a negative thing, by the way. Oh, yeah, no, no, no, I totally understand, but I think, um, I forget what I was going with that. Michael Hingson  51:26 Sorry. Well, we were talking about the fact that more discipline dealing with, Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  51:33 Oh, yeah. Oh, that's right, thank you. It's just, um, I think if you truly want it, you're gonna put forth the effort in anything. You know, it's may not always be enjoyable, but like, if you want it, you'll put through it. You'll push through it, like with high school, my mom knows, just like from elementary to high school, like that curriculum, I was just not feeling it, but I knew I had to stick it out. I wanted to be a high school dropout. I voiced that many of times, but like, I knew if I wanted to get to culinary school, I had to really focus on my academics through then and just try to push through and just do it, do what I had to do to graduate. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  52:19 Yeah, it's such a different environment to high school, I believe, you know, like I found that I really enjoyed college. I enjoyed my subjects. They went fast. The classes went fast. It was fast paced, but it was an I learned more. I you know, I think that slowness of the way that they do things in in the high school, it takes them like three weeks to get through one chapter, you know, and so it, it just, it just made it a big difference. And I, I wished I could continue to go to school. I think I was a really good student. Michael Hingson  52:59 I think one of the things about college is, and I've talked to several people who agree, is, you certainly learn from the courses that you take, but College offers so much more with with with the extracurricular activities, with the interaction with people, with The greater responsibility. College offers so many more life lessons if you take advantage of it, that really makes it cool. And I, I always enjoyed college. I liked it a lot. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  53:29 Yeah, yeah, I did too, I think with some of my challenges and frustrations, not only with my learning disability, but like the fact that their curriculum that I would would have been interested in, which is not offered, like there was certain languages that were offered and they didn't have Italian, and I would have learned love to have learned that because I'm part Italian, and I just always take an interest In the Italian culture. So in like, the reading things like I've noticed, like, when I was younger, I didn't really care for reading that much, but what helped me get into reading is, like murder mysteries, because they always kept me engaged and focused and curious. And most of the murder mysteries that I've read, they're real page turners, because you want to know who got, who did the mystery. Michael Hingson  54:24 What are some of your who are some of your favorite authors? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  54:28 So poetry wise, I love shell Silverstein because I was introduced to him in his early age. Yes, I loved him. I still do. I read them from time to Michael Hingson  54:42 time Where the Sidewalk Ends. You know, how about murder mysteries? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  54:53 For murder mysteries, I can't, I don't have, like, a favorite author, like on top of. My head right now. Um, just because, like, I just like, if I so, you know how I pick my murder mysteries by how the cover is designed. That's how I pick my wine bottles for gifts, too, by the label design. If I take interest in the cover or the label, I want to try it. There you go. Michael Hingson  55:23 Well, you've done some work and studying as an actor. What kind of work have you done as an actor? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  55:28 Sure, so, um, I'll usually take pretty much any opportunity that I apply for it and get it. I mostly do, like extra work, meaning, like, I show up, I get to, like, get costumes and stuff like that, and I don't have to memorize any lines. And I love that. Just trying to memorize lines, I can and will do it, but it's just, it just wasn't for me during the last few years, because of school and everything, it was very hard for me to take the time to do like the memorization, because I was memorizing lines for class too. So I just didn't want I just wanted the experience and to see what it's like to move around on set, take direction and stuff like that. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  56:24 I mean that pit, pit to the point. Oh, Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  56:26 yeah. So if you don't mind, is it okay if I bring up pit to the point? Sure. Okay. So I have some notes on pick to the point. That was a great experience, one of the classes that I really wanted to take while I was in college was a news class, and I got the opportunity to take Pitt to the point, and that was such a great experience, because the professor, he really set the tone of What it was like to be in like a news room, and I love that, and I got the chance to be work in different areas, like in front of the camera and behind the camera, and it's a class that focuses on the news as well as Behind the Scenes of a news magazine program that covers the city of Pittsburgh, the University of Pittsburgh, and some of the University of Pittsburgh regional campuses, as well as national and international events. And one of the things that our professor mentioned at the time, Kevin Smith, he said, we can submit some of the works that you do during the semester for an Emmy nomination. So, um, one of the things that I worked on, we got selected, and I got to take my mom to the Emmys. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  58:02 We went to the Emmys. It was the Emmys for the news, news people Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  58:09 in hers was on, it was the Irish it was an Irish store story, Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  58:15 most No, it was like an actual Irish store, like store, their products came from Ireland, like the owners go to Ireland, these different things, and then bring they get them back. And that was such a cool experience, like doing that story, because they worked with ally, and she was the one in front of the camera. She is such like a strong person to be in front of the camera. She's so talented at such a young age, and Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  58:46 you're you were the editor, producer, she was the producer, and unfortunately, she didn't win the Emmy, but it was a good experience. I mean, sure, nominated and where that was out in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, yeah, we have in there. Yeah, that was like a three hour trip for us to drive. And it was just exciting, you know, you see all the news people and you know that are there. And it was just really nice, really nice. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  59:17 Kelly fry is one of my favorite news anchors of all time. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  59:21 She's no longer a news anchor. Unfortunately, we didn't see her there, but we did see, oh, what was her name? Oh, my goodness, she had she was just beautiful. And, you know, it just like, it was just nice. It was just really nice. Michael Hingson  59:40 Well, Daisy, we haven't talked a lot about it, but I'd be curious as we we get close to the end of this, clearly, your attention deficit disorder is a disability, and that's the I assume, the learning disability that you have. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  59:58 Yeah, and. Um, some anxiety Michael Hingson  1:00:01 and some anxiety. What do you hope for the future? As far as accommodations for persons with disabilities? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  1:00:09 I just really hope now there's like 2025 I hope people get a better understanding of to like, not fear people who have disabilities, and just don't be so ignorant to certain things in commentary when you're talking to somebody. And I hope like certain accommodations are a lot easier, especially for people who are wheelchair bound like any they need to be able to access certain things. My one friend has a lot of health issues, and she's not really able to go to New York because she can't walk long periods. So if she was to have a scooter there, she wouldn't be able to do it. Yeah. So I just hope things are a lot more accessible and also not as costly to put those things in. Michael Hingson  1:01:04 Yeah, I know New York is actually trying to make most of the subway system accessible, which is a major undertaking because a lot of those stations are designed in such a way that accessibility is going to be really hard, but their plan is to do it, so we'll see what happens. Well, I want to thank you both for being here. This has been very enjoyable. I really appreciate it. And clearly unstoppability is something that applies to you guys, which I think is really great. Do you have any kind of final thoughts that you want to share? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  1:01:42 Well, as far as disabilities, people do have to be open minded to the fact that people have these issues. And also, I'm so glad that it finally, with the sexual harassment, that it is coming to a point. I mean, it might be overkill at times, but there, it's there for a reason. It's time. Yes, it is. It's it has an effect on a person. It might not have an effect at the time, but years later, it does have an effect. And I tend to be a little bit cautious with things, and if somebody says something the wrong way, I don't like it. And I might, you know, I might not be a pleasant person, you know, you just, I put up with that for so long, and I figured, and I didn't realize what was happening. And now I, you know, like so I'm glad things are changing there, even if it's a slow change, it's changing. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  1:02:46 Natalie, do you have any thoughts? Yeah, sure. I just hope I do recognize that things are changing. I just hope people truly get the accommodations that they need to make think life easier for them, because I want somebody to put who doesn't have disabilities to put themselves in a person that needs accommodations, because that stuff needs to be there. Yeah, well, Michael Hingson  1:03:13 I want to thank you both for being here, and we've got the photos and everything of your book cover and so on. Those will all go in the show notes. So I hope people will go to the Woodstock museum. And you know, if people want to reach out to you in any way, how do they do that? Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  1:03:31 So they can email me at Natalie bellen, N, a T, yes, sure. No, go ahead. N, a T, A L, I, E, B, E, L, i n7. Michael Hingson  1:03:43 [email protected] Okay, great. Well, then I want to thank you both for being here, and I want to thank all of you out there who have been with us today in the audience, we appreciate it. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love it. If you'd give us a five star rating for the podcast episode today, we value that very highly. If any of you know anyone who ought to be a guest. Natalie and Mary, you as well. If you know anybody else who you think ought to be a guest and who has stories to tell, we'd love to hear from them. Please introduce us. We would appreciate it a great deal. But again, I just want to thank you both for being here. This has been great. Thank you for having us. Natalie Belin & Mary Dunn  1:04:39 Michael, thank you. Yes. Thank you. Michael Hingson  1:04:46 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

What if the toughest moments in your life were preparing you to lead better, serve deeper, and live with more purpose? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with Greg Hess, known to many as Coach Hess, for a wide-ranging conversation about leadership, resilience, trust, and what it really means to help others grow. Greg shares lessons shaped by a lifetime of coaching athletes, leading business teams, surviving pancreatic cancer, and building companies rooted in service and inclusion. We talk about why humor matters, how trust is built in real life, and why great leaders stop focusing on control and start focusing on growth. Along the way, Greg reflects on teamwork, diversity, vision, and the mindset shifts that turn adversity into opportunity. I believe you will find this conversation practical, honest, and deeply encouraging. Highlights: 00:10 – Hear how Greg Hess’s early life and love of sports shaped his leadership values. 04:04 – Learn why humor and laughter are essential tools for reducing stress and building connection. 11:59 – Discover how chasing the right learning curve redirected Greg’s career path. 18:27 – Understand how a pancreatic cancer diagnosis reshaped Greg’s purpose and priorities. 31:32 – Hear how reframing adversity builds lasting resilience. 56:22 – Learn the mindset shift leaders need to grow people and strengthen teams. About the Guest: Amazon Best-Selling Author | Award-Winning Business Coach | Voted Best Coach in Katy, TX Greg Hess—widely known as Coach Hess—is a celebrated mentor, author, and leader whose journey from athletic excellence to business mastery spans decades and continents. A graduate of the University of Calgary (1978), he captained the basketball team, earned All-Conference honors, and later competed against legends like John Stockton and Dennis Rodman. His coaching career began in the high school ranks and evolved to the collegiate level, where he led programs with distinction and managed high-profile events like Magic Johnson’s basketball camps. During this time, he also earned his MBA from California Lutheran University in just 18 months. Transitioning from sports to business in the early '90s, Coach Hess embarked on a solo bicycle tour from Jasper, Alberta to Thousand Oaks, California—symbolizing a personal and professional reinvention. He went on to lead teams and divisions across multiple industries, ultimately becoming Chief Advisor for Cloud Services at Halliburton. Despite his corporate success, he was always “Coach” at heart—known for inspiring teams, shaping strategy, and unlocking human potential. In 2015, a diagnosis of pancreatic cancer became a pivotal moment. Surviving and recovering from the disease renewed his commitment to purpose. He left the corporate world to build the Coach Hess brand—dedicated to transforming lives through coaching. Today, Coach Hess is recognized as a Best Coach in Katy, TX and an Amazon Best-Selling Author, known for helping entrepreneurs, professionals, and teams achieve breakthrough results. Coach Hess is the author of: Peak Experiences Breaking the Business Code Achieving Peak Performance: The Entrepreneur’s Journey He resides in Houston, Texas with his wife Karen and continues to empower clients across the globe through one-on-one coaching, strategic planning workshops, and his Empower Your Team program. Ways to connect with Greg**:** Email:  [email protected]: www.CoachHess.com LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/coachhess Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/CoachHessSuccess Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/coachhess_official/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone. I am Michael Hinkson. Your host for unstoppable mindset. And today we get to enter, well, I won't say interview, because it's really more of a conversation. We get to have a conversation with Greg. Hess better known as coach Hess and we'll have to learn more about that, but he has accomplished a lot in the world over the past 70 or so years. He's a best selling author. He's a business coach. He's done a number of things. He's managed magic Johnson's basketball camps, and, my gosh, I don't know what all, but he does, and he's going to tell us. So Coach, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad that we have a chance to be with you today. Greg Hess  02:07 I'm honored to be here. Michael, thank you very much, and it's just a pleasure to be a part of your program and the unstoppable mindset. Thank you for having me. Michael Hingson  02:17 Well, we're glad you're here and looking forward to having a lot of fun. Why don't we start? I love to start with tell us about kind of the early Greg growing up and all that stuff. Greg Hess  02:30 Oh boy, yeah, I was awfully fortunate, I think, to have a couple of parents that were paying attention to me, I guess. You know, as I grew up, at the same time they were growing up my my father was a Marine returned from the Korean War, and I was born shortly after that, and he worked for Westinghouse Electric as a nuclear engineer. We lived in Southern California for a while, but I was pretty much raised in Idaho, small town called Pocatello, Idaho, and Idaho State Universities there and I, I found a love for sports. I was, you know, again, I was very fortunate to be able to be kind of coordinated and do well with baseball, football, basketball, of course, with the sports that we tend to do. But yeah, I had a lot of fun doing that and growing up, you know, under a, you know, the son of a Marine is kind of like being the son of a Marine. I guess, in a way, there was certain ways you had to function and, you know, and morals and values that you carried forward and pride and doing good work that I learned through, through my youth. And so, you know, right, being raised in Idaho was a real great experience. How so well, a very open space. I mean, in those days, you know, we see kids today and kids being brought up. I think one of the things that often is missing, that was not missing for me as a youth, is that we would get together as a group in the neighborhood, and we'd figure out the rules of the game. We'd figure out whatever we were playing, whether it was basketball or, you know, kick the can or you name it, but we would organize ourselves and have a great time doing that as a community in our neighborhood, and as kids, we learn to be leaders and kind of organize ourselves. Today, that is not the case. And so I think so many kids are built into, you know, the parents are helicopter, and all the kids to all the events and non stop going, going, going. And I think we're losing that leadership potential of just organizing and planning a little bit which I was fortunate to have that experience, and I think it had a big influence on how I grew up and built built into the leader that I believe I am today. Michael Hingson  04:52 I had a conversation with someone earlier today on another podcast episode, and one of the observations. Sense that he made is that we don't laugh at ourselves today. We don't have humor today. Everything is taken so seriously we don't laugh, and the result of that is that we become very stressed out. Greg Hess  05:15 Yeah, well, if you can't laugh at yourself, you know, but as far as I know, you've got a large background in your sales world and so on. But I found that in working with people, to to get them to be clients or to be a part of my world, is that if they can laugh with me, or I can laugh with them, or we can get them laughing, there's a high tendency of conversion and them wanting to work with you. There's just something about relationships and be able to laugh with people. I think that draw us closer in a different way, and I agree it's missing. How do we make that happen more often? Tell more jokes or what? Michael Hingson  05:51 Well, one of the things that he suggests, and he's a coach, a business coach, also he he tells people, turn off the TV, unplug your phone, go read a book. And he said, especially, go buy a joke book. Just find some ways to make yourself laugh. And he spends a lot of time talking to people about humor and laughter. And the whole idea is to deal with getting rid of stress, and if you can laugh, you're going to be a whole lot less stressful. Greg Hess  06:23 There's something that you just feel so good after a good laugh, you know, I mean, guy, I feel that way sometimes after a good cry. You know, when I'm I tend to, you know, like Bambi comes on, and I know what happens to that little fawn, or whatever, the mother and I can't, you know, but cry during the credits. What's up with that? Michael Hingson  06:45 Well, and my wife was a teacher. My late wife was a teacher for 10 years, and she read Old Yeller. And eventually it got to the point where she had to have somebody else read the part of the book where, where yeller gets killed. Oh, yeah. Remember that book? Well, I do too. I like it was a great it's a great book and a great movie. Well, you know, talk about humor, and I think it's really important that we laugh at ourselves, too. And you mentioned Westinghouse, I have a Westinghouse story, so I'll tell it. I sold a lot of products to Westinghouse, and one day I was getting ready to travel back there, the first time I went back to meet the folks in Pittsburgh, and I had also received an order, and they said this order has to be here. It's got to get it's urgent, so we did all the right things. And I even went out to the loading dock the day before I left for Westinghouse, because that was the day it was supposed to ship. And I even touched the boxes, and the shipping guy said, these are them. They're labeled. They're ready to go. So I left the next morning, went to Westinghouse, and the following day, I met the people who I had worked with over the years, and I had even told them I saw the I saw the pack, the packages on the dock, and when they didn't come in, and I was on an airplane, so I didn't Know this. They called and they spoke to somebody else at at the company, and they said the boxes aren't here, and they're supposed to be here, and and she's in, the lady said, I'll check on it. And they said, Well, Mike said he saw him on the dock, and she burst out laughing because she knew. And they said, What are you laughing at? And he said, he saw him on the dock. You know, he's blind, don't you? And so when I got there, when I got there, they had and it wasn't fun, but, well, not totally, because what happened was that the President decided to intercept the boxes and send it to somebody else who he thought was more important, more important than Westinghouse. I have a problem with that. But anyway, so they shipped out, and they got there the day I arrived, so they had arrived a day late. Well, that was okay, but of course, they lectured me, you didn't see him on the dock. I said, No, no, no, you don't understand, and this is what you have to think about. Yeah, I didn't tell you I was blind. Why should I the definition of to see in the dictionary is to perceive you don't have to use your eyes to see things. You know, that's the problem with you. Light dependent people. You got to see everything with your eyes. Well, I don't have to, and they were on the dock, and anyway, we had a lot of fun with it, but I have, but you got to have humor, and we've got to not take things so seriously. I agree with what we talked about earlier, with with this other guest. It's it really is important to to not take life so seriously that you can't have some fun. And I agree that. There are serious times, but still, you got to have fun. Greg Hess  10:02 Yeah, no kidding. Well, I've got a short story for you. Maybe it fits in with that. That one of the things I did when I I'll give a little background on this. I, I was a basketball coach and school teacher for 14 years, and had an opportunity to take over an assistant coach job at California Lutheran University. And I was able to choose whatever I wanted to in terms of doing graduate work. And so I said, you know, and I'd always been a bike rider. So I decided to ride my bike from up from Jasper, Alberta, all the way down to 1000 Oaks California on a solo bike ride, which was going to be a big event, but I wanted to think about what I really wanted to do. And, you know, I loved riding, and I thought was a good time to do that tour, so I did it. And so I'm riding down the coast, and once I got into California, there's a bunch of big redwoods there and so on, yeah, and I had, I set up my camp. You know, every night I camped out. I was totally solo. I didn't have any support, and so I put up my tent and everything. And here a guy came in, big, tall guy, a German guy, and he had ski poles sticking out of the back of his backpack, you know, he set up camp, and we're talking that evening. And I had, you know, sitting around the fire. I said, Look, his name was Axel. I said, Hey, Axel, what's up with the ski poles? And he says, Well, I was up in Alaska and, you know, and I was climbing around in glaciers or whatever, and when I started to ride here, they're pretty light. I just take them with me. And I'm thinking, that's crazy. I mean, you're thinking every ounce, every ounce matters when you're riding those long distances. Anyway, the story goes on. Next morning, I get on my bike, and I head down the road, and, you know, I go for a day, I don't see sea axle or anything, but the next morning, I'm can't stop at a place around Modesto California, something, whether a cafe, and I'm sitting in the cafe, and there's, probably, it's a place where a lot of cyclists hang out. So there was, like, 20 or 30 cycles leaning against the building, and I showed up with, you know, kind of a bit of an anomaly. I'd ridden a long time, probably 1500 miles or so at that point in 15 days, and these people were all kind of talking to me and so on. Well, then all sudden, I look up why I'm eating breakfast, and here goes the ski poles down the road. And I went, Oh my gosh, that's got to be him. So I jump up out of my chair, and I run out, and I yell, hey Axel. Hey Axel, loud as I could. And he stops and starts coming back. And then I look back at the cafe, and all these people have their faces up on the windows, kind of looking like, oh, what's going to happen? And they thought that I was saying, mistakenly, Hey, asshole, oh gosh, Michael Hingson  12:46 well, hopefully you straighten that out somehow. Immediately. Greg Hess  12:50 We had a great time and a nice breakfast and moved on. But what an experience. Yeah, sometimes we cross up on our communications. People don't quite get what's going on, they're taking things too seriously, maybe, huh? Michael Hingson  13:03 Oh, yeah, we always, sometimes hear what we want to hear. Well, so what did you get your college degree in? Greg Hess  13:10 Originally? My first Yeah, well, I'd love the question my first degree. I had a bachelor of education for years, but then I went on, and then I had my choice here of graduate work, right? And, you know, I looked at education, I thought, gosh, you know, if I answered committee on every test, I'll probably pass. I said, I need something more than this. So I in the bike ride, what I what I came to a conclusion was that the command line being DOS command line was the way we were computing. Yeah, that time in the 90s, we were moving into something we call graphical user interface, of course, now it's the way we live in so many ways. And I thought, you know, that's the curve. I'm going to chase that. And so I did an MBA in business process re engineering at Cal Lu, and knocked that off in 18 months, where I had a lot of great experiences learning, you know, being an assistant coach, and got to do some of magic Johnson's camps for him while I was there, California. Lutheran University's campus is where the Cowboys used to do their training camp, right? So they had very nice facilities, and so putting on camps like that and stuff were a good thing. And fairly close to the LA scene, of course, 1000 Oaks, right? You know that area? Michael Hingson  14:25 Oh, I do, yeah, I do. I do pretty well, yeah. So, so you, you, you're always involved in doing coaching. That was just one of the things. When you started to get involved in sports, in addition to playing them, you found that coaching was a useful thing for you to do. Absolutely. Greg Hess  14:45 I loved it. I loved the game. I love to see people grow. And yeah, it was just a thrill to be a part of it. I got published a few times, and some of the things that I did within it, but it was mostly. Right, being able to change a community. Let me share this with you. When I went to West Lake Village High School, this was a very, very wealthy area, I had, like Frankie avalon's kid in my class and stuff. And, you know, I'm riding bike every day, so these kids are driving up in Mercedes and BMW parking lot. And as I looked around the school and saw and we build a basketball and I needed to build more pride, I think in the in the community, I felt was important part of me as the head coach, they kind of think that the head coach of their basketball program, I think, is more important than the mayor. I never could figure that one out, but that was where I was Michael Hingson  15:37 spend some time in North Carolina, around Raleigh, Durham, you'll understand, Greg Hess  15:41 yeah, yeah, I get that. So Kentucky, yeah, yeah, yeah, big basketball places, yeah. So what I concluded, and I'd worked before in building, working with Special Olympics, and I thought, You know what we can do with this school, is we can have a special olympics tournament, because I got to know the people in LA County that were running, especially in Ventura County, and we brought them together, and we ran a tournament, and we had a tournament of, I don't know, maybe 24 teams in total. It was a big deal, and it was really great to get the community together, because part of my program was that I kind of expected everybody, you know, pretty strong expectation, so to say, of 20 hours of community service. If you're in our basketball program, you got to have some way, whether it's with your church or whatever, I want to recognize that you're you're out there doing something for the community. And of course, I set this Special Olympics event up so that everybody had the opportunity to do that. And what a change it made on the community. What a change it made on the school. Yeah, it was great for the Special Olympians, and then they had a blast. But it was the kids that now were part of our program, the athletes that had special skills, so to say, in their world, all of a sudden realized that the world was a different place, and it made a big difference in the community. People supported us in a different way. I was just really proud to have that as kind of a feather in my calf for being there and recognizing that and doing it was great. Michael Hingson  17:08 So cool. And now, where are you now? I'm in West Houston. That's right, you're in Houston now. So yeah, Katie, Texas area. Yeah, you've moved around well, so you, you started coaching. And how long did you? Did you do that? Greg Hess  17:30 Well, I coached for 14 years in basketball, right? And then I went into business after I graduated my MBA, and I chased the learning curve. Michael, of that learning curve I talked about a few minutes ago. You know, it was the graphical user interface and the compute and how all that was going to affect us going forward. And I continued to chase that learning curve, and had all kinds of roles and positions in the process, and they paid me a little more money as I went along. It was great. Ended up being the chief advisor for cloud services at Halliburton. Yeah, so I was an upstream guy, if you know that, I mean seismic data, and where we're storing seismic data now, the transition was going, I'm not putting that in the cloud. You kidding me? That proprietary data? Of course, today we know how we exist, but in those days, we had to, you know, build little separate silos to carry the data and deliver it accordingly for the geophysicists and people to make the decision on the drill bit. So we did really well at that in that role. Or I did really well and the team that I had just what did fantastic. You know, I was real proud I just got when I was having my 70th birthday party, I invited one of the individuals on that team, guy named Will Rivera. And will ended up going to Google after he'd worked us in there. I talked him into, or kind of convinced him so to say, or pushed him, however you do that in coaching. Coached him into getting an MBA, and then he's gone on and he tells me, You better be sitting down, coach. When he talked to him a couple days ago, I just got my PhD from George Washington University in AI technology, and I just turned inside out with happiness. It was so thrilling to hear that you know somebody you'd worked with. But while I was at Halliburton, I got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, Michael, and so that's what changed me into where I am today, as a transition and transformation. Michael Hingson  19:21 Well, how did that happen? Because I know usually people say pancreatic cancer is pretty undetectable. How did it happen that you were fortunate enough to get it diagnosed? It obviously, what might have been a somewhat early age or early early Greg Hess  19:35 time, kind of a miracle, I guess. You know. I mean, I was traveling to my niece's high school graduation in Helena, Montana. And when we were returning back to Houston, we flew through Denver, and I was suffering from some very serious a fib. Was going up 200 beats a minute, and, you know, down to 100 and it was, it was all. Over the place. And I got the plane. I wasn't feeling well, of course, and they put me on a gurney. And next thing you know, I'm on the way the hospital. And, you know, they were getting ready for an embolotic, nimbalism potential, those type of things. And, and I went to the hospital, they're testing everything out, getting, you know, saying, Well, before we put your put the shock paddles on your on your heart to get back, we better do a CAT scan. And so they CAT scan me, and came back from the CAT scan and said, Well, you know what, there's no blood clot issues, but this mass in your pancreas is a concern. And so that was the discovery of that. And 14 days from that point, I had had surgery. And you know, there was no guarantees even at that point, even though we, you know, we knew we were early that, you know, I had to get things in order. And I was told to put things in order, a little bit going into it. But miracles upon miracles, they got it all. I came away with a drainage situation where they drained my pancreas for almost six months. It was a terrible pancreatic fluids, not good stuff. It really eats up your skin, and it was bad news. But here I am, you know, and when I came away from that, a lot of people thought I was going to die because I heard pancreatic cancer, and I got messages from people that were absolutely powerful in the difference I'd made in their life by being a coach and a mentor and helping them along in their life, and I realized that the big guy upstairs saved me for a reason, and I made my put my stake in the ground, and said, You know what? I'm going to do this the best I can, and that's what I've been doing for the last eight years. Michael Hingson  21:32 So what caused the afib? Greg Hess  21:35 Yeah, not sure. Okay, so when they came, I became the clipboard kid a little bit, you know. Because what the assumption was is that as soon as I came out of surgery, and they took this tumor out of me, because I was in a fib, throughout all of surgery, AFib went away. And they're thinking now, the stress of a tumor could be based on the, you know, it's a stress disease, or so on the a fib, there could be high correlation. And so they started looking into that, and I think they still are. But you know, if you got a fib, maybe we should look for tumors somewhere else is the potential they were thinking. And, yeah, that, Michael Hingson  22:14 but removing the tumor, when you tumor was removed, the AFib went away. Yeah, wow, Greg Hess  22:22 yeah, disappeared. Wow, yeah. Michael Hingson  22:26 I had someone who came on the podcast some time ago, and he had a an interesting story. He was at a bar one night. Everything was fine, and suddenly he had this incredible pain down in his his testicles. Actually went to the hospital to discover that he had very serious prostate cancer, and had no clue that that was even in the system until the pain and and so. But even so, they got it early enough that, or was in such a place where they got it and he's fine. Greg Hess  23:07 Wow, whoa. Well, stuff they do with medicine these days, the heart and everything else. I mean, it's just fantastic. I I recently got a new hip put in, and it's been like a new lease on life for me. Michael, I am, I'm golfing like I did 10 years ago, and I'm, you know, able to ride my bike and not limp around, you know, and with just pain every time I stepped and it's just so fantastic. I'm so grateful for that technology and what they can do with that. Michael Hingson  23:36 Well, I went through heart valve replacement earlier this year, and I had had a physical 20 years ago or or more, and they, they said, as part of it, we did an EKG or an echo cardiogram. And he said, You got a slightly leaky heart valve. It may never amount to anything, but it might well. It finally did, apparently. And so we went in and they, they orthoscopically went in and they replaced the valve. So it was really cool. It took an hour, and we were all done, no open heart surgery or anything, which was great. And, yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I feel a whole lot better Greg Hess  24:13 that you do does a lot. Yeah, it's fantastic. Well, making that commitment to coaching was a big deal for me, but, you know, it, it's brought me more joy and happiness. And, you know, I just, I'll share with you in terms of the why situation for me. When I came away from that, I started thinking about, why am I, kind of, you know, a lot of what's behind what you're what you're doing, and what brings you joy? And I went back to when I was eight years old. I remember dribbling the ball down the basketball court, making a fake, threw a pass over to one of my buddies. They scored the layup, and we won the game. That moment, at that time, passing and being a part of sharing with someone else, and growing as a group, and kind of feeling a joy, is what I continued to probably for. To all my life. You know, you think about success, and it's how much money you make and how much this and whatever else we were in certain points of our life. I look back on all this and go, you know, when I had real happiness, and what mattered to me is when I was bringing joy to others by giving assist in whatever. And so I'm at home now, and it's a shame I didn't understand that at 60 until I was 62 years old, but I'm very focused, and I know that's what brings me joy, so that's what I like to do, and that's what I do. Michael Hingson  25:30 I know for me, I have the honor and the joy of being a speaker and traveling to so many places and speaking and so on. And one of the things that I tell people, and I'm sure they don't believe it until they experience it for themselves, is this isn't about me. I'm not in it for me. I am in it to help you to do what I can to make your event better. When I travel somewhere to speak, I'm a guest, and my job is to make your life as easy as possible and not complicated. And I'm I know that there are a lot of people who don't necessarily buy that, until it actually happens. And I go there and and it all goes very successfully, but people, you know today, were so cynical about so many things, it's just hard to convince people. Greg Hess  26:18 Yeah, yeah. Well, I know you're speaking over 100 times a year these days. I think that's that's a lot of work, a lot of getting around Michael Hingson  26:27 it's fun to speak, so I enjoy it. Well, how did you get involved in doing things like managing the Magic Johnson camps? Greg Hess  26:37 Well, because I was doing my MBA and I was part of the basketball program at Cal Lu, you know, working under Mike Dunlap. It just he needed a little bit of organization on how to do the business management side of it. And I got involved with that. I had a lunch with magic, and then it was, well, gee, why don't you help us coordinate all our camps or all our station work? And so I was fortunate enough to be able to do that for him. I'll just share a couple things from that that I remember really well. One of the things that magic just kind of, I don't know, patted me on the back, like I'm a superstar in a way. And you remember that from a guy like magic, I put everybody's name on the side of their shoe when they register. Have 100 kids in the camp, but everybody's name is on the right side of their shoe. And magic saw that, and he realized being a leader, that he is, that he could use his name and working, you know, their name by looking there, how powerful that was for him to be more connected in which he wants to be. That's the kind of guy he was. So that was one thing, just the idea of name. Now, obviously, as a teacher, I've always kind of done the name thing, and I know that's important, but, you know, I second thing that's really cool with the magic camp is that the idea of camaraderie and kind of tradition and bringing things together every morning we'd be sitting in the gym, magic could do a little story, you know, kind of tell everybody something that would inspire him, you know, from his past and so on. But each group had their own sound off. Michael, so if he pointed at your group, it would be like, or whatever it was. Each group had a different type of sound, and every once in a while we'd use it and point it kind of be a motivator. And I never really put two and two together until the last day of the camp on Friday. Magic says, When I point to your group, make your sound. And so he starts pointing to all the different groups. And it turns out to be Michigan State Spartans fight song to the tee. Figured that out. It was just fantastic. It gives me chills just telling you about it now, remembering how powerful was when everybody kind of came together. Now, you being a speaker, I'm sure you felt those things when you bring everybody together, and it all hits hard, but that was, that was one I remember. Michael Hingson  28:50 Well, wow, that's pretty funny, cute, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, he has always been a leader, and it's very clear that he was, and I remember the days it was Magic Johnson versus Larry Bird. Greg Hess  29:10 Yeah, yeah. Well, when he came to LA you know, they had Kareem and Byron Scott, a whole bunch of senior players, and he came in as a 19 year old rookie, and by the end of that year, he was leading that team. Yeah, he was the guy driving the ship all the time, and he loved to give those assists. He was a great guy for that. Michael Hingson  29:30 And that's really the issue, is that as a as a real leader, it wasn't all about him at all. It was about how he could enhance the team. And I've always felt that way. And I you know, when I hire people, I always told them, I figure you convince me that you can do the job that I hired you to do. I'm not going to be your boss and boss you around. What I want to do is to work with you and figure out how the talents that I have can complement the talents that you have so that we can. Enhance and make you more successful than you otherwise would be. Some people got it, and unfortunately, all too many people didn't, and they ended up not being nearly as successful. But the people who got it and who I had the joy to work with and really enhance what they did, and obviously they helped me as well, but we they were more successful, and that was what was really important. Greg Hess  30:24 Yeah, yeah, I appreciate that. It's not about controlling, about growing. I mean, people grow, grow, grow, and, you know, helping them certainly. There's a reason. There's no I in team, right? And we've heard that in many times before. It's all about the group, group, pulling together. And what a lot of fun to have working in all throughout my life, in pulling teams together and seeing that happen. You know, one plus one equals three. I guess we call it synergy, that type of thinking, Michael Hingson  30:56 Yeah, well, you've faced a lot of adversity. Is, is the pancreatic cancer, maybe the answer to this, but what? What's a situation where you've really faced a lot of adversity and how it changed your life? You know you had to overcome major adversity, and you know what you learned from it? Greg Hess  31:16 Sure, I think being 100% honest and transparent. I'd say I went through a divorce in my life, and I think that was the most difficult thing I've gone through, you know, times where I'm talking to myself and being crazy and thinking stupid things and whatever. And I think the adversity that you learn and the resilience that you learn as you go, hey, I can move forward. I can go forward. And when you you see the light on the other side, and you start to create what's what's new and different for you, and be able to kind of leave the pain, but keep the happiness that connects from behind and go forward. I think that was a big part of that. But having resilience and transforming from whatever the event might be, obviously, pancreatic cancer, I talked about a transformation there. Anytime we kind of change things that I think the unstoppable mindset is really, you know what's within this program is about understanding that opportunities come from challenges. When we've got problems, we can turn them into opportunities. And so the adversity and the resilience that I think I'd like to try to learn and build and be a part of and helping people is taking what you see as a problem and changing your mindset into making it an opportunity. Michael Hingson  32:40 Yeah, yeah. Well, you've obviously had things that guided you. You had a good sense of vision and so on. And I talked a lot about, don't let your sight get in the way of your vision. But how's a good sense of vision guided you when necessarily the path wasn't totally obvious to you, have you had situations like that? Absolutely. Greg Hess  33:03 And I think the whole whole I write about it in my book in peak experiences, about having vision in terms of your future self, your future, think where you're going, visualize how that's going to happen. Certainly, as a basketball player, I would play the whole game before the game ever happened by visualizing it and getting it in my mind as to how it was going to happen. I do that with golf today. I'll look at every hole and I'll visualize what that vision is that I want to have in terms of getting it done. Now, when I have a vision where things kind of don't match up and I have to change that on the fly. Well, that's okay, you know that that's just part of life. And I think having resilience, because things don't always go your way, that's for sure. But the mindset you have around what happens when they don't go your way, you know, is big. My as a coach, as a business coach today, every one of my clients write a three, three month or 90 day plan every quarter that gets down to what their personal goal is, their must have goal. And then another kind of which is all about getting vision in place to start putting in actual tactical strategies to make all of that happen for the 90 day period. And that's a big part, I think, of kind of establishing the vision in you got to look in front of us what's going to happen, and we can control it if we have a good feel of it, you know, for ourselves, and get the lives and fulfillment we want out of life. I think, yeah, Michael Hingson  34:39 you've clearly been pretty resilient in a lot of ways, and you continue to exhibit it. What kinds of practices and processes have you developed that help you keep resilience personally and professionally? Greg Hess  34:54 I think one of them for sure is that I've I've lived a life where I've spent you. I'm going to say five out of seven days where I will do a serious type of workout. And right now bike riding. I'll ride several days a week, and, you know, get in 10 to 15 miles, not a lot, but, I mean, I've done but keeping the physical, physical being in the time, just to come down the time to think about what you're doing, and at the same time, for me, it's having a physical activity while I'm doing that, but it's a wind down time. I also do meditation. Every morning. I spend 15 minutes more or less doing affirmations associated to meditation, and that's really helped me get focused in my day. Basically, I look at my calendar and I have a little talk with every one of the things that are on my calendar about how I'm setting my day, you know? And that's my affirmation time. But yeah, those time things, I think report having habits that keep you resilient, and I think physical health has been important for me, and it's really helped me in a lot of ways at the same time, bringing my mind to, I think, accepting, in a transition of learning a little bit accepting the platinum rule, rather than the golden rule, I got to do unto others as they'd like to be treated by me. I don't need to treat people like they'd like to like I'd like to be treated. I need to treat them how they'd like to be treated by me, because they're not me, and I've had to learn that over time, better and better as I've got older. And how important that is? Michael Hingson  36:33 Well, yeah, undoubtedly, undoubtedly so. And I think that we, we don't put enough effort into thinking about, how does the other person really want to be treated? We again, it gets back, maybe in to a degree, in to our discussion about humor earlier we are we're so much into what is it all about for me, and we don't look at the other person, and the excuse is, well, they're not looking out for me. Why should I look out for them? Greg Hess  37:07 You know, one of the biggest breakthroughs I've had is working with a couple that own a business and Insurance Agency, and the they were doing okay when I started, when they've done much better. And you know, it's besides the story. The big part of the story is how they adjusted and adapted, and that she I think you're probably familiar with disc and I think most people that will be listening on the podcast are but D is a high D, dominant kind of person that likes to win and probably doesn't have a lot of time for the other people's feelings. Let's just put it that way to somebody that's a very high seed is very interested in the technology and everything else. And the two of them were having some challenges, you know, and and once we got the understanding of each other through looking at their disc profiles, all of a sudden things cleared up, a whole, whole bunch. And since then, they've just been a pinnacle of growth between the two of them. And it was just as simple as getting an understanding of going, you know, I got to look at it through your eyes, rather than my eyes. When it comes to being a leader in this company and how sure I'm still going to be demanding, still I'm going to be the I'm not going to apologize about it, but what I got him to do is carry a Q tip in his pocket, and so every time she got on him, kind of in the Bossy way. He just took out, pulled out the Q tip, and I said, that stands for quit taking it personal. Don't you love it? Michael Hingson  38:29 Yeah, well, and it's so important that we learn to communicate better. And I'm sure that had a lot to do with what happened with them. They started communicating better, yeah, yeah. Do you ever watch Do you ever watch a TV show on the Food Network channel? I haven't watched it for a while. Restaurant impossible. Greg Hess  38:51 Oh, restaurant impossible. Yeah, I think is that guy? Michael Hingson  38:55 No, that's not guy. It's my Michael. I'm blanking out Greg Hess  39:00 whatever. He goes in and fixes up a restaurant. Michael Hingson  39:03 He fixes up restaurants, yeah, and there was one show where that exact sort of thing was going on that people were not communicating, and some of the people relatives were about to leave, and so on. And he got them to really talk and be honest with each other, and it just cleared the whole thing up. Greg Hess  39:25 Yeah, yeah. It's amazing how that works. Michael Hingson  39:28 He's He's just so good at at analyzing situations like that. And I think that's one of the things that mostly we don't learn to do individually, much less collectively, is we don't work at being very introspective. So we don't analyze what we do and why what we do works or doesn't work, or how we could improve it. We don't take the time every day to do that, which is so unfortunate. Greg Hess  39:54 Oh boy, yeah, that continuous improvement Kaizen, all of that type of world. Critical to getting better, you know. And again, that comes back, I think, a little bit to mindset and saying, Hey, I'm gonna but also systems. I mean, I've always got systems in place that go, let's go back and look at that, and how, what can we do better? And if you keep doing it every time, you know, in a certain period, things get a lot better, and you have very fine tuning, and that's how you get distinguished businesses. I think, yeah, Michael Hingson  40:27 yeah, it's all about it's all about working together. So go ahead, I Greg Hess  40:31 was working with a guy at Disney, or guy had been at Disney, and he was talking about how they do touch point analysis for every every place that a customer could possibly touch anything in whatever happens in their environment, and how they analyze that on a, I think it was a monthly, or even at least a quarterly basis, where they go through the whole park and do an analysis on that. How can we make it better? Michael Hingson  40:55 Yeah, and I'm sure a lot of that goes back to Walt having a great influence. I wonder if they're doing as much of that as they used to. Greg Hess  41:04 Yeah, I don't know. I don't know, yeah, because it's getting pretty big and times change. Hopefully, culture Go ahead. I was gonna say a cultural perspective. I just thought of something I'd share with you that when I went into West Lake Village High School as a basketball coach, I walked into the gym and there was a lot of very tall I mean, it's a very competitive team and a competitive school, 611, six, nine kids, you know, that are only 16 years old. And I looked around and I realized that I'm kid from Canada here, you know, I gotta figure out how to make this all work in a quick, fast, in a hurry way. And I thought these kids were a little more interested in looking good than rather being good. And I think I'd been around enough basketball to see that and know that. And so I just developed a whole philosophy called psycho D right on the spot almost, which meant that we were going to build a culture around trying to hold teams under a common goal of 50 points, common goal, goal for successful teams. And so we had this. I started to lay that out as this is the way this program is going to work, guys and son of a gun, if we didn't send five of those guys onto division one full rides. And I don't think they would have got that if they you know, every college coach loves a kid who can play defense. Yeah, that's what we prided ourselves in. And, of course, the band got into it, the cheerleaders got into it, the whole thing. Of course, they bring in that special olympics thing, and that's part of that whole culture. Guess what? I mean, we exploded for the really powerful culture of of a good thing going on. I think you got to find that rallying point for all companies and groups that you work with. Don't you to kind of have that strong culture? Obviously, you have a very huge culture around your your world. Michael Hingson  42:54 Well, try and it's all about again, enhancing other people, and I want to do what I can do, but it's all about enhancing and helping others as well. Yeah. How about trust? I mean, that's very important in leadership. I'm sure you would, you would agree with that, whereas trust been a major part of things that you do, and what's an example of a place where trust really made all the difference in leadership and in endeavor that you were involved with? Greg Hess  43:29 Yeah, so often, clients that I've had probably don't have the they don't have the same knowledge and background in certain areas of you know, we all have to help each other and growing and having them to trust in terms of knowing their numbers and sharing with me what their previous six month P and L, or year to date, P and L, that kind of thing, so that I can take that profit and loss and build out a pro forma and build where we're going with the business. There's an element of trust that you have to have to give somebody all your numbers like that, and I'm asking for it on my first coaching session. And so how do I get that trust that quickly? I'm not sure exactly. It seems to work well for me. One of the things that I focus on in understanding people when I first meet and start to work with them is that by asking a simple question, I'll ask them something like, how was your weekend? And by their response, I can get a good bit of an idea whether I need to get to get them to trust me before they like me, or whether they get to get them to like me before they trust me. And if the response is, had a great weekend without any social response at all connected to it, then I know that I've got to get those people to trust me, and so I've got to present myself in a way that's very much under trust, where another the response might be. Had a great weekend, went out golfing with my buddies. Soon as I hear with the now I know I need to get that person to like. Me before they trust me. And so that's a skill set that I've developed, I think, and just recognizing who I'm trying and building trust. But it's critical. And once, once you trust somebody, and you'd show and they, you don't give them reason to not trust you, you know, you show up on time, you do all the right things. It gets pretty strong. Yeah, it doesn't take but, you know, five or six positive, that's what the guy said he's going to do. He's done it, and he's on top of it to start trusting people. I think, Well, Michael Hingson  45:31 I think that that trust is all around us. And, you know, we we keep hearing about people don't trust each other, and there's no trust anymore in the world. I think there's a lot of trust in the world. The issue isn't really a lack of trust totally. It's more we're not open to trust because we think everyone is out to get us. And unfortunately, there are all too many ways and times that that's been proven that people haven't earned our trust, and maybe we trusted someone, and we got burned for it, and so we we shut down, which we shouldn't do, but, but the reality is that trust is all around us. I mean, we trust that the internet is going to keep this conversation going for a while. I shouldn't say that, because now we're going to disappear, right? But, but, trust is really all around us, and one of the things that I tell people regularly is, look, I want to trust and I want people to trust me. If I find that I am giving my trust to someone and they don't reciprocate or they take advantage of it. That tells me something, and I won't deal with that person anymore, but I'm not going to give up on the idea of trust, because trust is so important, and I think most people really want to trust and I think that they do want to have trusting relationships. Greg Hess  47:02 Yeah, totally agree with you on that, you know. And when it's one of those things, when you know you have it, you don't have to talk about it, you just have it, you know, it's there, right? Michael Hingson  47:16 Yeah, and then, well, it's, it's like, I talk about, well, in the book that I wrote last year, live, it was published last year, live like a guide dog. Guide Dogs do love unconditionally, I'm absolutely certain about that, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between them and us, unless there's something that is just completely traumatized them, which isn't usually the case, they're open to trust, and they want to trust and they want to develop trusting relationships. They want us to be the pack leaders. They know we're supposed to be able to do that. They want to know what we expect of them. But they're open to trust, and even so, when I'm working with like a new guide dog. I think it takes close to a year to really develop a full, complete, two way trusting relationship, so that we really essentially know what each other's thinking. But when you get that relationship, it's second to none. Greg Hess  48:15 Yeah, isn't that interesting? How long were you with Rosella? Before the event, Michael Hingson  48:21 Rosella and I were together. Let's see we Oh, what was it? It was February or May. No, it was the November of 1999 so it was good two year. Good two years. Yeah, wow, yeah. So, you know, we we knew each other. And you know, even so, I know that in that in any kind of a stressful situation, and even not in a stressful situation, my job is to make sure that I'm transmitting competence and trust to Roselle, or now to Alamo. And the idea is that on September 11, I all the way down the stairs just continue to praise her, what a good job. You're doing a great job. And it was important, because I needed her to know first of all that I was okay, because she had to sense all of the concern that people had. None of us knew what was going on on the stairwell, but we knew that something was going on, and we figured out an airplane hit the building because we smelled jet fuel, but we didn't know the details, but clearly something was going on, so I needed to send her the message, I'm okay, and I'm with you and trust you and all that. And the result of that was that she continued to be okay, and if suddenly she were to suddenly behave in a manner that I didn't expect, then that would tell me that there's something different and something unusual that's going on that I have to look for. But we didn't have to have that, fortunately, which was great. It's. About trust, and it's all about developing a two way trust, yeah, Greg Hess  50:05 yeah, amazing. Well, and it's funny how, when you say trust, when in a situation where trust is lost, it's not so easily repaired, no, Michael Hingson  50:16 you know, yeah. And if it's really lost, it's because somebody's done something to betray the trust, unless somebody misinterprets, in which case you've got to communicate and get that, that that confidence level back, which can be done too. Greg Hess  50:33 Yeah, yeah. Important to be tuned and tuned into that, Michael Hingson  50:40 but it is important to really work to develop trust. And as I said, I think most people want to, but they're more often than not, they're just gun shy, so you have to really work at developing the trust. But if you can do it, what a relationship you get with people. Greg Hess  50:57 Circumstances, you know, and situational analysis change the level of trust, of course, in so many ways. And some people are trusting people where they shouldn't, you know, and in the right in the wrong environment. Sometimes you know, you have to be aware. I think people are fearful of that. I mean, just even in our electronic world, the scammers and those people you gotta, we get, we get one or two of those, you know, messages every day, probably people trying to get you to open a bank account or something on them. Better be aware. Don't want to be losing all your money. Yeah, but it's not to have trust, right? Michael Hingson  51:41 Yeah, it's one we got to work on well, so you you support the whole concept of diversity, and how has embracing diversity of people, perspectives or ideas unlocked new opportunities for you and the people you work with. Greg Hess  52:00 I got a great story for you on that. Michael A when I got into this coaching business, one of the one of the clients I was lucky enough to secure was a group called shredding on the go. And so the mother was kind of running the show, but her son was the president, and kind of the one that was in charge of the company. Now he's wheelchair, 100% wheelchair bound, nonverbal, very, very, I don't remember the exact name, but I mean very, very restrictive. And so what she figured out in time was his young is that he could actually take paper and like putting paper into a shredder. So she grew the idea of saying, Gosh, something James can do, we can build a business. This, this kid's, you know, gonna, I'm gonna get behind this and start to develop it. And so she did, and we created, she had created a company. She only had two employees when she hired me, but we went out and recruited and ended up growing it up to about 20 employees, and we had all the shredders set up so that the paper and all of our delivery and so on. And we promoted that company and supporting these people and making real money for real jobs that you know they were doing. So it was all, you know, basically all disabled autism to, you name it. And it was just a great experience. And so we took that show to the road. And so when we had Earth Day, I'd go out and we'd have a big event, and then everybody would come in and contribute to that and be a part of growing that company. Eventually, we got to the company to the point where the mother was worried about the the owner, the son's health was getting, you know, his life expectancy is beyond it, and she didn't want to have this company and still be running and when he wasn't there. And so we worked out a way to sell the company to a shredding company, of course, and they loved the the client. We had over 50 clients going, and they ended up making quite a bit of money that they put back into helping people with disabilities. So it was just a great cycle and a great opportunity to do that and give people an opportunity. I got to be their business coach, and what a lot of fun I included myself in the shredding I was involved with all parts of the company, and at one point, what a lot of fun I had with everybody. Michael Hingson  54:22 Yeah, yeah. There's something to be said for really learning what other people do in a company and learning the jobs. I think that's important. It's not that you're going to do it every day, but you need to develop that level of understanding. Greg Hess  54:37 Michael, you'll love this. Our best Shredder was blind. She did more than anybody, and she was blind. People go, you can't be doing that when you're What do you mean? She had it figured out. Yeah. Michael Hingson  54:48 What's the deal? Yeah, no, Shredder doesn't overheat, you know? But that's another step, yeah. So what's an example you've worked with a lot of teams. And so on. What's an example where a collaborative effort really created something and caused something to be able to be done that otherwise wouldn't have happened? Right? Greg Hess  55:10 Well, I referred back real quickly to the psycho D thing, where he had a common goal, common pride in taking it, and we just were on it. And I think that was a really, really transformational kind of thing to make everybody better as one whole area in a team. Now that's probably the first thing that comes to mind. I think the the idea of bringing the team together, you know, and really getting them to all work as one is that everybody has to understand everybody else's action plan. What's their plan? What is their vision? Where are they going in terms of, you know, playing basketball, to whether you're on the sales team, whether you're on the marketing team, or whatever part of the business you're in, do you have an action plan? And you can openly show that, and you feel like you're 100% participating in the group's common goal. I can't over emphasize an element of a common goal. I think, in team building, whatever that may be, you know, typically, the companies I'm working with now, we try to change it up every quarter, and we shoot quarter by quarter to a common goal that we all and then we build our plans to reach and achieve that for each individual within a company. And it works really well in building teams. And it's a lot of fun when everything comes together. You know, example of how a team, once you built that, and the team's there, and then you run into adversity, we have a team of five people that are selling insurance, basically, and one of them lost her father unexpectedly and very hard, Hispanic, Hispanic background, and just devastating to her and to her mother and everything. Well, we've got a machine going in terms of work. And so what happened is everybody else picked up her piece, and all did the parts and got behind her and supported her. And it took her about five months to go through her morning phase, and she's come back, and now she's going to be our top employee. Now going forward, it's just amazing how everybody rallied around her. We were worried about her. She comes back, and she's stronger than ever, and she'd had her time, and it was just nice to see the team of a group of company kind of treat somebody like family. That's a good thing. Michael Hingson  57:30 That's cool. What a great story. What mindset shift Do you think entrepreneurs and leaders really need to undergo in order to be successful. Greg Hess  57:45 Boy, you know, we talked a little bit earlier about the idea of looking through it, through other people's eyes, right? And then as a leader, you know, the same thing you were mentioning earlier, Michael, was that you draw the strength out of the people, rather than demand kind of what you want them to do in order to get things done, it's build them up as people. And I think that that's a critical piece in in growing people and getting that whole element of leadership in place. Yeah, what was the other part of that question? Again, let me give you another piece of that, because I think of some Go ahead. Yeah. I was just remember, what did you ask me again, I want to make sure I'm right Michael Hingson  58:28 from your books and coaching work. The question was, what kind of mindset shift Do you think that entrepreneurs and leaders have to adopt? Greg Hess  58:39 Yeah, yeah. So that's one part of the mindset, but the big one is recognizing that it's a growth world that we need to look at how we can grow our company, how we can grow individuals, how we can all get better and continuous improvement. And I think that is an example of taking a problem and recognizing as an opportunity. And that's part of the mindset right there that you got to have. I got a big problem here. How are we going to make that so that we're we're way better from that problem each time it happens and keep improving? Michael Hingson  59:10 Yeah, that makes sense. Well, if you could leave everyone who's listening and watching this today with one key principle that would help them live and lead with an unstoppable mindset. What would that be? What, what? What advice do you have? Greg Hess  59:30 Yeah, my advice is make sure you understand your passion and what, what your purpose is, and have a strong, strong desire to make that happen. Otherwise, it's not really a purpose, is it? And then be true to yourself. Be true to yourself in terms of what you spend your time on, what you do, in terms of reaching that purpose. It's to be the best grandparent there you can be in the world. Go get it done, but make sure you're spending time to grandkids. Don't just talk it so talks cheap and action matters. You know, and I think, figure out where you're spending your time and make sure that fits in with what you really want to gather happen in your life and fulfilling it. Michael Hingson  1:00:09 Well, I like that talks cheap and action matters. That's it. Yeah, I tell that. I tell that to my cat all the time when she doesn't care. But cats are like that? Well, we all know that dogs have Masters, but cats have staff, so she's a great kitty. That's good. It's a wonderful kitty. And I'm glad that she's in my life, and we get to visit with her every day too. So it works out well, and she and the Dog get along. So, you know, you can't do better than that. That's a good thing. Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has been absolutely super. I we've I think we've talked a lot, and I've learned a lot, and I hope other people have too, and I think you've had a lot of good insights. If people would like to reach out to you and maybe use your services as a coach or whatever, how do they do that? Greg Hess  1:01:00 Well, my website is coach, hess.com Michael Hingson  1:01:06 H, E, S, S, Greg Hess  1:01:07 yeah, C, O, A, C, H, H, E, S, s.com, that's my website. You can get a hold of me at coach. At coach, hess.com that's my email. Love to hear from you, and certainly I'm all over LinkedIn. My YouTube channel is desk of coach s. Got a bunch of YouTubes up there and on and on. You know, all through the social media, you can look me up and find me under Coach. Coach S, is my brand Cool? Michael Hingson  1:01:38 Well, that it's a well worth it brand for people to go interact with, and I hope people will so Oh, I appreciate that. Well, I want to thank you all for listening and watching us today. Reach out to coach Hess, I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear what you think of today's episode. So please give us an email at Michael H i, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, wherever you're monitoring our podcast, please give us a five star rating. We value it. And if you know anyone who might be a good guest to come on and tell their story, please introduce us. We're always looking for more people to come on and and chat with us. Coach you as well. If you know anyone, I'm sure you must love to to get more people. Now, if you could get Magic Johnson, that'd be super but that's probably a little tougher, but it'd be, it'd be fun. Any, anyone that you feel we ought to chat with, I would appreciate it. But again, I want to just thank you for being here. This has been absolutely wonderful. Greg Hess  1:02:41 Thank you, Michael, it's an honor to be here. Michael Hingson  1:02:48 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

What if most marketing struggles have nothing to do with tactics and everything to do with clarity? In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I sit down with marketing strategist and global entrepreneur Sacha Awaa to explore why so many small businesses waste money on marketing that never works. Sacha shares how growing up across cultures shaped her approach to strategy, leadership, and customer connection. We talk about why understanding your audience matters more than any tool, how AI is changing speed to market without replacing human judgment, and why marketing should be treated as an investment rather than an expense. You’ll hear practical insights on audits, go-to-market strategy, process building, and leadership decisions that help businesses grow with intention instead of noise. I believe you will find this conversation both grounding and useful as you think about how to build something sustainable in a crowded marketplace. Highlights: 00:09 – Hear how growing up across cultures shaped a broader view of leadership, communication, and business.10:11 – Learn why AI improves speed to market but still requires human judgment to work well.12:13 – Discover why not truly understanding your audience is the biggest reason marketing fails.19:22 – Understand what marketing strategy actually means beyond tactics, tools, and trends.27:51 – See what small businesses can borrow from enterprise companies without losing agility.46:09 – Learn why strong leaders know when to step back and let the right people lead. About the Guest: Sacha Awaa is a marketing strategist, entrepreneur, and co-founder of My Marketer Mentors, a fast-growing community designed to help small business owners cut through the noise and succeed with marketing that actually works. With a unique ability to blend creativity and data, Sacha has guided startups and small businesses in turning limited budgets into measurable results. Her career has been driven by a passion for helping entrepreneurs avoid costly mistakes, drawing on insights from both Fortune 500 playbooks and scrappy startup strategies. Through workshops, mentorship, and one-on-one guidance, she empowers business owners to find clarity in today’s overwhelming marketing landscape. Sacha’s own journey reflects the intersection of design thinking and strategic planning—leveraging both sides of the brain to unlock powerful growth. She believes that marketing isn’t just about selling products, but about building authentic communities, which inspired her to create a peer-led space where entrepreneurs can learn from and support each other. Whether she’s breaking down practical go-to-market frameworks, rethinking outdated marketing tactics, or sharing her personal story of resilience and innovation, Sacha brings both warmth and wisdom to the small business world. Ways to connect with Sacha: www.mymarketermentors.com https://www.linkedin.com/in/sachaawwa/https://www.instagram.com/uncomplicate__it/https://www.linkedin.com/in/sachaawwa/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:21 Well, hi everyone, and I want to welcome you to another episode of unstoppable mindset today. I your host Michael hingson gets a chance to talk with Sacha Awa, who is a marketing professional. She's going to tell us a lot about that I know, and she's a marketing strategist in general. She's an entrepreneur, and she's co founder of whoop I lost it there, my marketer my marketer mentors. So we'll learn about that as we go forward, if I don't get tongue tied anyway, Sasha, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're glad you're here. Sacha Awaa  02:05 Yes, thank you so much. I'm really happy to be here. Well, why Michael Hingson  02:08 don't we start? I love to do this to have you start by talking maybe about the early Sasha, growing up, and just telling us a little about you. Yeah. Sacha Awaa  02:18 So I was born in Dallas, Texas, where my middle eastern dad and my European, Swedish mother collided. And then I grew up in the Middle East and migrated my way down south, down to the US, really, to attend college, where both of my parents went, and I have since stayed and been here. So I am sort of a, a, I guess, a global citizen in the sense that, you know, I, I, I travel a lot to my parents hometown and countries as well as, you know, have a base here in South Florida in the United States. And it's just really great to, you know, have that connection across the board, and I think it truly helps with work just, you know, working alongside and coming from different parts of the world, Michael Hingson  03:09 what do you think about the fact that you have lived in various parts of the world, and how that has really shaped the way you view working with people and viewing the job that you do. Sacha Awaa  03:22 Well, I think that when you are sort of that global citizen, and I think a lot of you know, my generation is having lived all over, it really creates that sense of truly understanding and being able to connect with folks all over just, you know, really the nuances of culture and you know, really how things sort of function and work in their in their country, and really being able to adapt it so it's not just, and I have clients globally. And you know, some clients are some, some people are like, Oh my gosh, it's so hard to do business in X country, or so on and so forth. And I think you just, you adapt, and you, as long as you're open to understanding how other people work and how they get things done, then I think it's a great fit for you to for you to be, for you to be doing that. Michael Hingson  04:11 Yeah, I think it's so important to have a broader perspective than so many of us do. I also think that, and know that traveling around the US, there are a lot of different kinds of attitudes and cultures, if you will, in different parts of the country, which is really cool, this country is large enough that it has that but then traveling to other countries has also allowed me to gain a broader perspective, which is why I asked the question. Because I agree with you. I think that there's so much to be gained by seeing and experiencing various parts of the world. Yes, it broadens your horizons in so many ways. Sacha Awaa  04:49 Yes, in so many ways. I couldn't agree more. Yeah, Michael Hingson  04:53 which is, which is really cool. So, so how long did you live in the Middle East? Sacha Awaa  05:00 I was in the middle east from when I was four months until I was, how should I say, until I was 16, and then came here for boarding school, and then later continued on and lived here. So it hasn't, it's, you know, I've probably spent a majority of my life in the US. But I think what's interesting is when you grow up at a young age, anywhere you really get into really having that foundation and that makes you who you are. Michael Hingson  05:34 Yeah, yeah. Well, how, why did you come back to the US when you were 16, or how did that work out? Sacha Awaa  05:43 I came for the purpose of education. Michael Hingson  05:46 Yeah, your parents were all in favor of that. 05:49 Yes, that's where they went to school. So they Michael Hingson  05:52 wanted you to get that that sense as well. I mean, you've certainly had 16 years almost of learning and so on in the Middle East, but it must have been quite a big difference coming to the US. Sacha Awaa  06:07 Yes, it was, but yeah, of course. I mean, it's when you're when you're at the tender age of 16. Yeah, you know, coming here and migrating anywhere away from your family, especially long distance, even though you're probably like, banging your fists on the wall and saying, I can't wait to leave home. You then have a rude awakening when that happens. Michael Hingson  06:28 Mm, hmm. Well, so are you so your parents still in the Middle East? Or how does that work? Sacha Awaa  06:36 No, my parents are. Well, they're between the Middle East, Europe and the US as well. They're all over Flin around, huh? Yeah. And they continue to do so well, Michael Hingson  06:48 which gives them a broader set of horizons about things. But they they do come and visit daughter occasionally, I gather, Sacha Awaa  06:57 yes, they do. And they come and they stay for two to three months at a time. So it's 07:01 great. Well, that's cool. Michael Hingson  07:04 And so what languages do you speak? Sacha Awaa  07:08 I speak both Swedish, English and Arabic. Michael Hingson  07:12 Okay, wow. So what? What prompted Swedish as part of it? Sacha Awaa  07:18 What prompted Swedish as part of it, my mother is Swedish. Michael Hingson  07:22 Oh, that's true. You said she was, didn't, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, cool. So, so that gives you, certainly a plethora so next you have to learn an Asian language, and then you're going to really have a number of continents. Much less you could do Africa. 07:39 Yes, exactly. Michael Hingson  07:42 But that's, that's cool. So where did you go to college? Sacha Awaa  07:45 I went to American University in Washington, DC. Michael Hingson  07:48 Ah, okay, what did you study marketing, I assume. Sacha Awaa  07:52 No, actually, I studied, I studied graphic design. I mean, I eventually worked for advertising agency, but I was on the design side. Okay? Michael Hingson  08:02 And then you graduated. Did you get an advanced degree or just a bachelor's just a bachelor's degree that was enough to get you going, Yes. What did you do after you You graduated? Sacha Awaa  08:17 What did I do after I graduated? I worked in, I worked in two advertising agencies. I worked in a much smaller one that, you know, when you live in Washington, DC, you either work for the government or you have government contracts. Yeah, yeah. So I worked with government contracts and advertising agency backgrounds Michael Hingson  08:40 cool and you, you liked it. Sacha Awaa  08:46 I did. I worked as a graphic designer for about four years, and I switched over leaving graphic design because I just felt that it was really hard to be creative under pressure. Michael Hingson  09:01 Yeah. Well, yeah, but as you transitioned into doing more marketing things, that's pretty creative under pressure, isn't it? Yeah. Sacha Awaa  09:12 I mean, I guess marketing in general is just a lot of pressure to begin with, Michael Hingson  09:17 yeah, but still, but you, you certainly seem to do okay with it all. Sacha Awaa  09:26 I Yeah, and I think it's I'm always up for a good challenge. Michael Hingson  09:31 When did you go out and start your own company? Sacha Awaa  09:36 Started my own company, if you'd imagine, I graduated in 2003 and then I worked all throughout the years, and then I started my own company in 2022 Michael Hingson  09:46 oh so. Post somewhat, post pandemic, Sacha Awaa  09:50 somewhat in the midst of why did Michael Hingson  09:54 you decide to start your own company rather than just continuing to work for others? Sacha Awaa  10:00 I wanted to break the shackles and basically have my own freedom. Michael Hingson  10:08 And it's working out for you. Okay, Sacha Awaa  10:10 yeah. I mean, starting anything is tough, right? Michael Hingson  10:13 Yeah, yeah. But you like being an entrepreneur. I do. I love it. So what do you do in your own company? Maybe, what do you do different? Or what do you do that you didn't do when you work for others? Yeah, I think Sacha Awaa  10:30 everything that I learned in terms of working for other companies was really just, you know, my bottom line and focus is ensuring that small business owners and entrepreneurs survive and thrive in this environment, of, how should I say, survive and thrive in the environment, of, of what it's like to build a business these days. It's no longer that American dream in the 40s, 50s and 60s and the 70s, really. That made that was so much easier. I think the AI boom is making things a lot easier. To start a company again, but it's just, you know, it it's a different time, right? So owning any kind of business is a struggle. Michael Hingson  11:13 Why is AI making it easier? AI is Sacha Awaa  11:17 making it easier because AI has created platforms that can build a website in Six Minutes or Less versus, you know, I don't know, you know, I mean, it's, it's very, it's very different, you know, so, and I think it's, it's really speed and agility is what it is. It's speed and agility to market. You know, yeah, Michael Hingson  11:45 well, and with AI and all of it, it does. Do you find that it still makes mistakes, or that it may be a better way to put it, rather than it still makes mistakes? Maybe a better way to say it is that even with AI, you need to go in and tweak whatever it does so that it really comes out more like what you're specifically looking for. Yes, yeah, yes, yeah, because AI is great, but it isn't you, and it never will be. It's going to work at times to get closer to what you are, but still being able to go in and and tweak it is probably a very helpful thing 100% so that that makes a lot of sense. Yes, so you have been working now at this company. Talk about being under pressure, I mean now, but it's, it's, it's a self imposed pressure, so it's really not the same as what you would experience working for someone else, right? Correct, yeah. So Correct, yeah. So it's not really the same kind of pressure, not at all. You can make the pressure what you want it to be. Oh, yeah. Well, so what are the most common mistakes that you see small businesses making that you when, when you start to talk with them about marketing so on, what are the what are the mistakes that they usually make? Sacha Awaa  13:18 Oh, the it's, it's not necessarily mistakes that they make. I think it's just the lack of education of what people understand marketing truly is to really, then be able to develop out, you know what that could look like, right? Or you know how it would work for them. So it's just really, not truly understanding, you know, where they are in their business, maybe even doing the work of, you know, digging into, you know, who their customer audience is, and so on and so forth. So it really then becomes a struggle as to, you know, creating creating content for them to connect with. How should I say their audience? Because they have maybe a message that doesn't make sense to their audience, because they really haven't dug into the mindset. So I think really to answer your question, the biggest mistake that that small business owners make, and this is what I push all the time, is ensuring that you do the work of understanding who your audience is and connecting your product and service to that. Michael Hingson  14:28 So when you asked me, before we started about what the audience is like, and I said, it's really a general, pretty eclectic audience because of the way we do the podcast, that must have drove you crazy. 14:38 No, not at all, Sacha Awaa  14:40 because I think that in a medium like this is different, right? I mean, you probably deliver, you probably deliver a lot of content that makes sense for for a lot of people. And so, you know, I think that that that works in so many ways. Oh, so, in essence, kind of do understand who you're. Audiences in a way, Michael Hingson  15:01 yeah, well, as much as we can. But the other part about it is that in this podcast, having different kinds of guests with different kinds of messages, like yesterday, I talked with two people who are very religious and faith based. And I'm sure that there are people who aren't going to be interested in that, who listen to our podcast, they might listen to it. I hope they will, just because I think it's good to always hear other perspectives. But I do understand that sometimes people in the audience will listen to one thing and they won't listen to someone else and what they do, and I think that's perfectly okay, yes, because the kind of medium that we have exactly so I my background has has been since 1979 in sales. Okay, of course, we work very closely with marketing, and there's a lot of overlap and all that, but in looking at the people that you work with and so on, can you give us a story of maybe a company or someone who really overspent on a marketing campaign that they really didn't need to spend so much on their or a tactic where they just overspend without getting any real results. Sacha Awaa  16:27 That happens when there's a lack of understanding of, you know, jumping into something just because you think the world has told you that that's what you need, or, you know, you've been told, you know, this is what you should be doing. So in that sense, it makes it very hard because of the simple fact that they don't really they jump into making a mistake when it's not the right time for their business. And most of these sort of marketing agencies that are out there kind of focused on a one track setup so they don't really it then becomes a bad marriage. If that makes sense, you're meeting the you're meeting the client. You're connect a client is being connected to an agency at the wrong time, and it's it's just not where they should be as a as a business. Michael Hingson  17:26 So a company starts doing something in a particular way because someone told them to do it that way, but they don't get results. Then what happens? Sacha Awaa  17:36 Then they think marketing sucks, and that's the majority of who comes to me, you know, yeah. Michael Hingson  17:42 So when that happens, what do you do? Sacha Awaa  17:46 I have to rehabilitate them back into understanding that marketing does actually work. And that's when I build out my whole process and explain to them like, this is, this is how it actually works, you know, you just it wasn't the fault of, you know, the the business that you were working with. It was just the simple fault that you weren't ready and they didn't guide you in the manner that they should have. Michael Hingson  18:15 How do people take that, when you, when you, when you say that to them? Sacha Awaa  18:20 I wish I had met you, you know, before this happened. Because sometimes, you know, dependent, there can be a lot of money that's wasted, right? So, and that's really what the struggle is, and so, but then it automatically gains trust because they know that I'm not here to, you know, to just rip them off and tell them I'm going to TEDx your business and so on and so forth, when I'm actually really going to, you know, support them getting to where they need to get to. Have you Michael Hingson  18:58 had situations where you started working with a company, and you you thought you understood what was going on, but then when you started a campaign, it didn't work either, and you had to punt, as it were. Sacha Awaa  19:10 Well, I always tell them, you know, we have to test and learn, and that's what marketing is all about. So it's going through those motions, and they have to be open for it, but what I do when I test and learn is that I don't throw money out. I make sure I dip our toes in very cautiously to then, you know, make sure that we build accordingly. 19:33 Yeah, yeah. It is. It Michael Hingson  19:37 isn't an exact science, as it were, but it is certainly something that, when you understand it, you know, you know generally how to proceed. And there's a lot of Troy that has to go on. And so it's not magic. But by the same token, it is a process, yes, and I think most people don't really understand. Marketing, they don't understand exactly what it is that you really do that helps companies grow. And maybe that's a way to ask that question. So what? What really, when it comes down to it, is marketing, and what do you do? Sacha Awaa  20:16 Yeah, so think of I'm a strategic I'm a marketing strategist, whereby I really look at a company in terms of what products and services they've created, who they've created for, and then how do we go to market, and where do we find their audiences at a high impact, low cost? So that's essentially what I do, is maximize their dollars spent just based on making sure that their foundation is in a good place. Have I confused you even more? Michael Hingson  20:45 No, no, not at all. Okay, good, but, but I understand it. So yeah. And I think that that it, it really is important for people to be aware that, that it is all about trying to, well, in a lot of senses, you're educating the people you work with, but through and with them, you're also educating the rest of the world about what these people have to offer, and showing that it's a valuable thing and and that's something that, Again, that's what marketing really is all 21:20 about, yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson  21:24 And so it's important to understand that it is a that it is a give and take. It is a process, and it doesn't happen all at once. One of my favorite examples still continues to be, and you're probably familiar with the case was it back in 1984 when somebody put poison in one bottle of Tylenol and yes, and within a day, the president of the company jumped out in front of it and said, We're going to take every bottle off the shelf until we Make sure that everything is really clean. What a marketing campaign by definition. That really was because he was he was building trust, but he was also solving a problem. But I think the most important part of it still is that he was building trust. And I'm just amazed at how many people haven't learned from that. And when they experience a crisis, they they hide rather than learning how to get out in front of it. Absolutely, I couldn't agree more. How do you deal with that? Sacha Awaa  22:32 Um, I don't know. Sometimes I ask myself why I didn't get a degree in psychology as a second major? Michael Hingson  22:39 Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is amazing. But, well, you got to do what you got to do? 22:49 Yeah? Absolutely, right. Michael Hingson  22:52 So what's the first thing that a company should do to make sure that their marketing dollars are really being well spent, Sacha Awaa  23:02 make sure that their marketing dollars are being well spent. And it really goes back to the foundation, ensuring that they really know what their mission and their vision and who they're actually talking to, because if they're creating content that is is not aligned with the pain point of who their audience is, then you've completely missed the beat. Michael Hingson  23:22 And I'm assuming that you find a lot of people who haven't really thought nearly enough about their vision and their mission, and who haven't really learned to understand what their audience 23:32 is. Oh yeah, 100% Michael Hingson  23:36 so what do you do to fix that? Sacha Awaa  23:39 What do I do to fix that, um, that's when I go through my, my, my three part process, in the sense of, I really take a look at, what's the word I'm looking for, understanding, you know, again, like the foundation, I come in and I do an audit, and I really look into, you know, the details of, you know, how they've set up, how they haven't set up, what they've been doing, you know, that hasn't worked for them, and so on and so forth, and really moving through that process, you know, Michael Hingson  24:17 yeah, Do you? Do you find that you often surprise customers because they thought they knew what they were doing, they thought they understood their mission and their audience, and oh, 24:30 they do all the time. 24:32 They're just surprised, Sacha Awaa  24:33 yeah, I mean, they definitely think that they know what they're talking about, you know? And sometimes it's it's difficult to to unpack that, you know, with clients, but it works out in the end, Michael Hingson  24:49 yeah, it's all about education and teaching, and as long as they're willing to learn, which is, of course, part of the issue. Have you had some people that no matter what you tell them, they just refuse to. Buy into what they really need to do to improve, Sacha Awaa  25:04 to try and see if I can make sure that when we're having the initial setup, to ensure that, you know, it's a good fit for both of us that we, we, we make sure that, you know, in general, it's a good fit, right? And so I tend to, I tend to try and hope to have that interview process that that makes it work in the end, right? So, more than not, I'm, I'm pretty I'm pretty accurate with it. But of course, you know, we can always make mistakes, and I have, you know, I have yet to, to let go of a client. But you know, sometimes you have to, you have to allow the client to to, you know, to guide you. But then, you know, I always am Frank in the beginning that, you know, this is what we're going to be working with. This is what we're set up to do so on and so forth. And, you know, if there's pushback, I feel it in the beginning, you know, and I tell them how I work, and they tell me how they work, and we just hope that it becomes a good marriage. Michael Hingson  26:23 Ultimately, it's all about education. And I gather, since you said you've never had to really let go of a client that you've you've been successful at working out some sort of an educational process between the two of you. Yes, because that's really what it's what it's all about. Yeah, I'm assuming that you've learned things along the way too. Sacha Awaa  26:49 I definitely have learned things along the way. Yes. Michael Hingson  26:53 Do you find that sometimes customers, or a customer of yours really did know more of what they were talking about than you thought? And you had to adapt. Sacha Awaa  27:03 Those are a blessing when they when, when they have that. So I'm always open for that, and I think that that's great when they've done the work, you know, yeah, Michael Hingson  27:16 but they've obviously done something that brought them to you, because they were or they felt they were missing something, I assume, yes. So again, it's, it's a learning experience, and I think that's so important, that that that we all learn. I know for me in sales, I figure I learned from every customer that I have ever had, and whenever I hired someone, I told them, at least, especially at least for the first year, you need to think of yourself as a student. Your customers want to teach you. They want you to be successful, as long as you develop a mutual trust and in and ultimately, you have to be a student to understand them, and let them teach you what they do, and so on. Then you go from there, Sacha Awaa  28:07 100% 100% I couldn't agree more, Michael Hingson  28:11 and it's so important to do that, and it makes for a much better arrangement all the way around. When that happens, doesn't 28:18 it? Yes, it does Michael Hingson  28:22 so fortune 500 companies tend to have strategies they've used, and that's probably what brought them to the point where they became fortune 500 companies. But what are some of the strategies, maybe, that they have, that smaller companies can adapt to? Well, it's Sacha Awaa  28:41 interesting that you asked that you asked that because I worked for a fortune 1000 company. I mean, I worked for the New York Times, and what I really have been excited about leaving them and going into the startup world is the simple fact that enterprises have processes and systems in place that startups don't. And that's what's so interesting, is that, you know, while a startup is beautiful chaos and they have more speed and agility to get to market, they just don't have the process, the practice of the processes in place to really be organized to get to market. So that was really one thing that I brought into, into the system, to be able to help support Michael Hingson  29:30 so for example, what are some of those Sacha Awaa  29:34 processes, you know, creating road maps, go to market strategies, you know, digging into systems. And what really tends to happen at startups, it's just like, go, go, go, go, go, just get market. You know, Michael Hingson  29:50 that doesn't work necessarily at all, because even if you're successful, if you don't have a system in place, do you. Really end up figuring out what it was that made you successful? 30:04 Yes, absolutely. Michael Hingson  30:07 So there is, there's a lot of value in in putting processes in place in terms of documenting what you do. Yes, and documentation is a very key part of it, I would think, yes. Because if you do that, then people, or you, when you go back and look at it, can say, Oh, this is what I did, and this is this worked. So we ought to continue that process, yes, 30:37 for sure, for sure, for sure. Michael Hingson  30:41 So the other part about it is, though, that some of these processes may may cost a bunch of money. How do they implement some of these without breaking the bank? Sacha Awaa  30:55 How do they without breaking the bank? In Michael Hingson  30:57 other words, it's going to cost to put processes in place. How do you convince business people, or how do they realize they can do it without losing all their money and just getting a marketing plan going? Sacha Awaa  31:13 I hope that they get in touch with, you know, somebody like me that can really help them through that process and really just, you know, guide them along the way and and support them in that sense, right? So it's a risk listen like with everything that you take in life, with any a vendor that you work with, with any support system that you have, it's a risk that you take to ensure that you know, it is, it is a it is a good marriage at the end of the day. That's why, when I sign up with clients, I ensure that, you know, I guide them along the way to, you know, support what they're doing, understanding that, you know, they may be bootstrapped from a budget standpoint, so it's going in slowly, giving them a proof point that, you know, hey, this is working. And then moving from there, Michael Hingson  32:07 yeah, so you have checkpoints along the way so that they can see that they're making progress. 32:13 Yes, exactly, yeah. Michael Hingson  32:16 And then, by doing that, they gain more confidence. Yes. But it is, it is just, it is a process, and marketing is a process. And we, we all need to really understand that. 32:34 Yes, I Sacha Awaa  32:35 completely agree, you know, but it's an exciting thing, and if clients start to stop, start, stop, to look at it as a line item, but rather an investment. They will, they will see the difference in that. Michael Hingson  32:50 Yeah, that's really the key. It's an investment, and they need to recognize that. And yeah, I'm sure that's part of what you have to teach. Yes, people take that pretty well? Sacha Awaa  33:03 Um, it's not that they take it well immediately. They have to, they have to adapt to it. And, you know, it's, it's once they see that it works, then, then they can feel comfortable about it. You know? Michael Hingson  33:19 Yeah, yes. So can you share a story where a small business applied, maybe the large business approach to branding and so on and experience growth? 33:38 Let's see that question again. Michael Hingson  33:40 Can you share a story where a small company applied a big brand approach and did see growth, Sacha Awaa  33:51 where they applied a big brand approach and they did see growth when you say brand? Are you talking about changing logos, like all that kind of stuff. Michael Hingson  34:02 Well, I don't know that's why. I was wondering if you had a story where somebody looked at a major company and they said, Well, we like what these people are doing. We're going to try to apply that to our business. And they did it with your help, and they were successful. Sacha Awaa  34:22 Um, so, like, so, as I mentioned, like, logos and stuff like that. Okay, that what you mean, like, from a brand. I just want to make sure I understand what you mean by, well, brand, Michael Hingson  34:36 I'm I'm open. That's why I wanted to get your sense of so big companies are successful for one reason or another, and so I was looking for maybe a story about a smaller company that adopted what a bigger company was doing, and found that they really were able to experience growth because of adopting whatever it was that they did. Sacha Awaa  34:59 Yes. Yes, so Well, I think that the audit is the most important part in the beginning, and it's focusing on that audit to ensure that they're in the right place for growth, and that's why we do that work, to make sure that we set them up for success, right? And that, to me, is extremely important, because if that work isn't done, then, then it can be set up to fail. You know, Michael Hingson  35:34 when you say audit, you mean what? Sacha Awaa  35:38 So I look at their their previous marketing history. I look at their mission, their vision. I really dig into who they think is their ideal customer profile. And then, lo and behold, we find out that there's a multitude of different customer profiles that they haven't even thought to look out for, you know? Michael Hingson  35:57 And so then your job is to help guide them to bring some of those other customer potentials into what they do. 36:05 Yes, exactly. Michael Hingson  36:09 So when you're helping a company develop a strong go to mention go to market strategy, what are some of the key elements that you you put in place and that you you you invoke Sacha Awaa  36:24 the key elements that I put in place, it really goes back to really doing the work on who their customer is. Because a lot of, like I said, it goes back to the beginning of what you asked me, What's the biggest mistake? The biggest mistake is that they don't really, truly uncover who they're targeting. They really, they really don't, you know, a lot of companies don't, even enterprise companies don't. Michael Hingson  36:44 So what is the process that you use to get people to recognize and put process, put procedures in place to really experience growth, so that you discover that they don't know their their customer base, for example, like they should, or the way they're they're speaking to their customer base, isn't necessarily the best way to do it. What are, what are some of the procedures and the processes that you actually put in place that help move them forward in a positive way? Yeah. Sacha Awaa  37:18 So you know, when, when we look into the audit. You know, we we really get their content in a good place. We really tighten up their mission. We tighten up their vision. We really expand on who their customer profile is. We make sure that all of their marketing tech is connected so that they can track a lead in through the funnel, from from from the lead to the final sale. And that's that's really important, you know. So that's really, that's really where we start. And then whatever we uncover from the, how should I say, from the audit, then we start to put, and every business is different. And then we really start to put implement and implementations in place to build from, and that becomes the ground up. Michael Hingson  38:09 And how, how long do you typically work with a company? They come to you and they have a problem or whatever, is there kind of any sort of average amount of time that you end up spending with them, or is it a kind of ongoing relationship that lasts a long time? Sacha Awaa  38:26 Project Based clients, and then I have clients that are sort of, you know, have been with me since day one. Marketing never stops. So as long as clients understand that, then, you know, we keep moving. It's the heartbeat of every company, right? Michael Hingson  38:47 So you continue to work with them, and you continue to create and run their marketing campaigns. Yes. How many people do you have in your company? Sacha Awaa  38:58 Um, I am a solopreneur, and I contract people depending on the clients that I bring in. So I also help with other solopreneurs. So that's, that's how I have managed to to make it work, because it will be difficult to keep people on staff if I don't have work for them, right? Yeah, right. Michael Hingson  39:16 Yeah, right. But, but you bring people in so that works out. Well, do you have customers outside the US, or is it primarily in the US? 39:28 They're global. Michael Hingson  39:29 They're global, okay, yeah, yeah, the value of video conferencing, right? 39:36 Exactly, exactly, exactly. Michael Hingson  39:40 So say the pandemic has helped in in fixing some things anyway, or enhancing some things, 39:46 I think so, Michael Hingson  39:49 yeah, I know zoom has become a lot better because of the pandemic as a video conferencing tool. Yes, it's more accessible than most. Which is which is really pretty good. 40:00 But, yes, Michael Hingson  40:03 but it's, I think that that we're, we're seeing the value of it. Do you, which brings up a question a little bit away from marketing, but how do you think that the entire working world is, is changing? Do you think that there, there are a number of companies that are recognizing more the value of hybrid work, whereas people can spend some of their time working at home, as opposed to just having to come into an office every day. Or do you think we're really falling back on just being in the office all the time? Sacha Awaa  40:38 Some people want to go back into the office. I think that they missed the point of of the hybridness of being able to, you know, to connect with people that I really give somebody the opportunity overseas, that can really support them. So I think a majority of people pre covid were maybe not as open. And I think they're, they're very much open to it now, Michael Hingson  41:05 and so you're seeing more people work in a more hybrid way, exactly, yeah, I I'm glad to hear that. I think it's, it's so important. I think that we're seeing that, that workers are happier when they they are in an environment that they're really comfortable in. And the reality is, while offices are great and there's a lot of value and people spending time with each other in the office, that doesn't work all the time or shouldn't work. Yeah, it's true, so it's nice to see some changes that that will help that, yes, exactly, does AI help all that in any way? Sacha Awaa  41:51 Oh, I mean, there, there are some things that AI can help with. But, I mean, from a connect to, it's, it's really maybe platforms that help you connect, that help you get, you know, the job done that maybe assimilate you being together, you know, and and, you know, brainstorming and so on and so forth, right, right? 42:11 So, what Michael Hingson  42:14 do you think about the people who say that AI is going to take away so many jobs? Sacha Awaa  42:19 I don't think that it's going to take away so many jobs. I think the people that focus on jumping on the bandwagon of AI and ensuring that they make their job a lot better with AI are the ones that are going to survive with AI. Yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  42:36 We had someone on the podcast about a year ago, who pointed out that AI will never take away anyone's job. It's people that will take away jobs and they'll give to AI without finding other opportunities for the people who are potentially being displaced. But in reality, that AI still is not going to do everything that a person can do. So Sacha Awaa  43:03 you Yeah, there's going to be things that AI can never do. And I think that that is great, you know? I mean, I think people are going to look more for authenticity than, you know, focusing on what is not real, right? I think, I think, you know, people are so scared that it's going to backlash. I actually think that it's going to showcase that we, we need things. We need certain things, right? Yeah, yeah. Michael Hingson  43:44 Well, and I've talked about it here, but one of my favorite interesting things about AI is, when I first started hearing about it, I was talking to a couple of teachers who said that, well, AI is just going to make life really difficult because students are just going to let AI write their papers, and students aren't going to learn anything. And and I asked, What are you going to do about that? Well, what can we do? We we're working on programs so that we can try to figure out whether AI wrote the speech or the or the paper, or they wrote the paper. And that got me thinking, and I finally realized what a wonderful opportunity AI is providing. So you assign a paper for a class of students, and the students go off and do their papers. A lot of them may use AI to do the paper, but if you're concerned about whether they've really learned from the experience. The way to handle it is let everyone turn their papers in, then take a day and let the students in the class each have like a minute, get them up in front of the class and say, now defend your paper. You'll find out very quickly who knows what? Sacha Awaa  44:58 Yeah, it's. True, and they are saying that more people that are using AI, it's actually like hurting their brain from becoming creative, right? Michael Hingson  45:09 Well, I I use AI, but I use AI to perhaps come up with some ideas that I hadn't thought of, but I still create the article or create the paper, because the only way to do it, I think AI is great at coming up with some possibilities that maybe we didn't think of. But yeah, it still needs to be us that does it. 45:31 I completely agree. I couldn't agree more, yeah, and that works. Yeah, for sure, for sure. Michael Hingson  45:40 So when, when startups start launching and doing things, what are some of the common mistakes that they make? Sacha Awaa  45:56 They rush to get to market, and they don't do the foundational work that we chatted about, and then that can really, that can really have a major pushback on them. Michael Hingson  46:13 Are there others that you can think of? There are other things that companies ought to do that they don't Sacha Awaa  46:21 organizational, creating project plans. But it's at its core, you know? I mean, if they, if they rush to get somewhere, and it doesn't turn out to work in the end, it's because, you know, they haven't done the work to really ensure that they're in a good place before they start spending money. You know, Michael Hingson  46:47 companies need to to have leaders and visionaries. How would you define a leader? 46:54 How would I define a leader? Sacha Awaa  46:58 Well, that's a little bit of a loaded question. I would define a leader who understands that they are as strong as who they bring on to support the growth of the company and their ability to know when to take a step back, because they're the founders, and to allow whoever they brought on to help them grow. If that makes sense, it does, yeah, because a lot of the times people hire somebody and they're and they just do the work for them, but it's like, why have you hired them? You know, Michael Hingson  47:43 I think that one of the key attributes of any leader is to know when as to learn your people and know when to step back and let somebody else take the lead because they happen to have more of a talent to do a particular thing than you do 100% I think that is so crucial, because so many leaders 48:06 don't do that. Yep, I completely agree. Sacha Awaa  48:12 They don't. They don't do that at all, you know? Michael Hingson  48:15 Yeah, I you know. And there's a big difference between being a leader and being a boss. 48:22 Yes, absolutely. And Michael Hingson  48:24 I, you know, I always tell every person that I ever hired, my job is not to boss you around. You convinced me that you could do the job we're hiring you for, but my job is to use my talents to help you be more successful, and you and I need to figure out how to make that work. How do we use each other's talents to do the things that you need to be successful? 48:48 Yes, exactly. Michael Hingson  48:51 I don't think that all that many people tend to do that, and they really should. 48:56 Yes, yes. I couldn't agree more. Michael Hingson  49:01 Well, there are a lot of tools and tactics available that people can use. How do you decide to use what in a particular stage of growth or to help people move forward? Sacha Awaa  49:14 It really is just dependent on, on, on their business and their industry and that's what makes it unique to just to focus on, you know, because the same industry could, should, just could have different needs, right? So it's, it's understanding what their needs are that you then assign that to particular tools that help them with growth and so on and so forth. Michael Hingson  49:43 Yeah, that that clearly makes sense. So there's a lot of noise and lot of distractions in marketing. How do you recommend cutting through the noise and focusing on what really matters in any given situation? Um, Sacha Awaa  50:06 what really matters in any given situation? Michael Hingson  50:10 So there's, again, there's there. There's so many ways to get distracted. How do you how do you help to keep people focused on the job at hand, whatever that is to to ignore distractions and focus. Sacha Awaa  50:27 So I guess distractions can come in many different packages. So it's really understanding how those distractions are and what they mean to the company. So just depending on them on that. It's, it's, it's really offering up whether that distraction is important, you know what I'm saying, or if it is, you know, something that is just something to bypass, or if it's noise, so it's really kind of analyzing the worth of spending time and effort on it. Michael Hingson  51:05 How do you get people to get past focusing on those distractions, though? So I mean, you're right and all that you've said, but how do you get people to to recognize what they really need to do in any given situation? Um, Sacha Awaa  51:23 it's really the analysis of of throwing back data to them. So it's like, okay, so this is a distraction. What does this mean to the company? You know, how can we leverage this or not leverage this? Does it make sense, or are we wasting time focusing on think it's just reasoning, right? It's logical reasoning with any type of distraction, whether it's business or personal. Michael Hingson  51:48 Yeah, I know for me, when I worked for a company a number of years ago, I was the first person into the office, because I sold to the east coast from California. So I was in the office by six, and I had two to three hours that I could focus on doing all the phone calls and the other things that I needed to do, because it was nine o'clock on the East Coast, and I started to observe after a while, not so much for me, but when other people started to arrive, they spend time chatting and all sorts of stuff like that. And sometimes I would get interrupted, and it slowed things down. But people chatted and didn't focus as much for quite a while on whatever it is that their job responsibilities required them to do. Yeah, and of course, that's a distraction. It's an interesting distraction of just communications. But still, I never saw that. The company did a lot to get people to really focus. They did some things. They put some procedures in place, for example, where you could see how many phone calls you made in a given day. Yes, some people took that to heart, but a lot of people didn't, and the bottom line is they continue to be distracted. Sacha Awaa  53:14 Yes, it's true, but I think, I think then what, what that what that becomes, it's, it's the personal characteristic. 53:26 Yeah, they have to solve for Michael Hingson  53:30 that they didn't have to solve for. But if you were the leader of a company where you saw some people who were doing that, what would you do? How do you get them to understand, Sacha Awaa  53:44 how do I get them to understand Michael Hingson  53:46 that they need to focus? And how do you help them focus? Sacha Awaa  53:51 I think that's out of my paycheck. Hopefully they have a psychologist back Michael Hingson  53:56 to getting that degree again, right? Sacha Awaa  53:59 Yeah, you know, I mean, like, there's only so much that I can do honestly, you know, 54:06 yeah, yeah, Sacha Awaa  54:11 there really is only so much that I can do in the arena of supporting people, You know, 54:17 right, yeah. Michael Hingson  54:20 So if you encounter an overwhelmed business owner who's trying to create a clear marketing path to do something and they feel overwhelmed, what kind of advice would you give them Sacha Awaa  54:39 that it's natural to feel overwhelmed, Michael Hingson  54:44 and but, but they feel overwhelmed. How do you deal? How do you fix that again? Sacha Awaa  54:50 I mean, I'm somebody that focuses on marketing, so it would be, it would be out of my, my core scope, to be honest. You know? I mean, I just. You know, I can talk them through a certain amount of things, but like, you know, I mean, I can't really change somebody's personality, and it's either, you know, I can guide them in one direction as to, like, what is going to hurt or make or break their company. But I'm not an organizational psychologist. I think that that would be a really good question for an organizational psychologist versus a marketer, 55:21 okay, you know, yeah. Michael Hingson  55:24 Well, if people want to reach out to you and engage you in terms of your services and so on, how do they do that? Sacha Awaa  55:32 Yeah, so you can find me on LinkedIn. It is Sasha Awa. And then can you spell that S, A, C is in Charlie H A, and then the last name is a W, W, A, and my website is S A M, as in Mary G, as in George H Q, so headquarters.com Michael Hingson  55:52 so it's S A M, G, H Q, H 55:57 Q, exactly.com. Yes. Michael Hingson  56:02 And they can reach out to you through the website, and, of course, on LinkedIn and so on. 56:06 Yes, exactly. Well, we've Michael Hingson  56:09 been doing this a while, but do you have any kind of final words of wisdom and things that you want to say to the audience here to get them thinking and maybe reach out to you? Yeah, yeah. Sacha Awaa  56:20 I think, you know, marketing isn't as complicated as it's made out to be. It is. It is loud and noisy. But you know, there are, there are marketers that are here to support you on complicated and to really support your growth. So really lean on them and and and trust in the process Michael Hingson  56:46 and through that, they'll grow exactly well. Sasha Sacha, I want to thank you very much for being with us today. This has been a lot of fun, and I appreciate it, and I appreciate your time. And I urge all of you to when you're thinking about marketing and growing your business, Satya is a person who can help with that clearly. So hopefully you'll reach out. I'd love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts about today. Feel free to reach out to me. At Michael H [email protected] that's m, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear from you and get your thoughts and for all of you and such as you as well, if you know anyone else who might ought to be a guest on our podcast, love to get introductions to people and wherever you're observing the podcast today, Please give us a five star rating. We really value your ratings. We value your thoughts and your your ratings and your opinions are what keep us going. So we really appreciate you giving us those and for you again. Sacha, I want to thank you for being here. This has been a lot of fun. So thank you. 57:58 Thank you so much. Michael. I really appreciate it. Michael Hingson  58:06 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.

Fear of judgment can quietly shape how you show up, even when you are capable, prepared, and driven. In this episode of Unstoppable Mindset, I talk with Carlos Garcia, an attorney, Army Reserve JAG officer, certified Army Master Resilience Trainer, and high performance coach who helps people move past fear and into purposeful action. Carlos shares his path from growing up in Simi Valley to serving as a trial defense counsel in high pressure legal settings, and how his own fear of rejection once led him to stay quiet, second guess himself, and avoid opportunities. That struggle pushed him to study resilience, neuroscience, psychology, and philosophy, and to test those lessons through intense physical and mental challenges that reshaped how he shows up under pressure. Together, we explore why fear of other people’s opinions feels so powerful, how the brain exaggerates threats, and why growth requires planned exposure to discomfort. We talk about preparation versus worry, training your mind before the crisis hits, and why small wins matter more than people realize. I also share lessons from September 11 and from my book Live Like a Guide Dog, connecting mindset, preparation, and courage when it matters most. Carlos’s guiding idea runs through the entire conversation. Get calm so you can think clearly. Get bold so you can act with intention. Get after it so progress actually happens. If fear of judgment, public speaking, or stepping outside your comfort zone has been holding you back, this episode offers practical insight and encouragement to move forward with confidence. Highlights: 00:58 – Learn how early success can still create fear of judgment and quiet self doubt. 06:14 – Discover why exposing yourself to discomfort breaks fear predictions that rarely come true. 08:29 – Understand how preparation builds calm before pressure ever hits. 16:28 – Learn how to use stress as energy instead of letting it trigger avoidance. 25:23 – Discover why reflection turns mistakes into growth instead of shame. 52:04 – Learn why getting calm must come before bold action and real progress. About the Guest: Carlos is an attorney, certified Army Master Resilience Trainer, Army reserve JAG officer, and high-performance coach for smart, driven people. He’s spent over a decade navigating high-stakes environments, from adversarial legal settings fighting for soldiers as a trial defense counsel to the frontlines of resilience training with soldiers and leaders. It all began in 2011 in Washington, DC, where high-stress, high-judgment, and constant pressure came with the territory. But behind the business attire and confident façade was a harsh reality: a fear of rejection that kept him second-guessing, staying quiet, people-pleasing, and missing out on opportunities he knew he wanted. For years, he avoided rocking the boat, held back in meetings, and lived for external validation. The result? He was invisible in rooms where he should’ve been leading, stuck on a path that didn’t feel like his, and missing out on the roles, relationships, and rewards he worked so hard for. Then, he decided to rewrite the script. He dove into resilience training, went deep into neuroscience, psychology, ancient philosophy, and anything that could help him (and others like me) reject the fear of, well, rejection. That journey led him to the U.S. Army Resilience program, where he got certified to teach soldiers and leaders how to face judgment, stress, and adversity head-on. It led him on a path of continuous testing and personal experimentation—at work, in ultra running, and in combat sports including Brazilian jiu jitsu and judo. And eventually, he created True Progress Lab to bring those same principles to leaders who are ready to step up. His motto: Get calm—clarity starts there. Get bold—stability fuels courage. Get after it—progress demands action. Ways to connect with Carlos**:** Website: http://trueprogresslab.com Newsletter: http://trueprogresslab.com/newsletter LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/iamjcarlosg/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/trueprogresslab/ X: https://x.com/TrueProgressLab [email protected] About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson  00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson  01:17 Well, hello everyone, wherever you happen to be, I want to tell you that I am your host, Michael Hinkson, and here we are with unstoppable mindset, and we are talking today with Carlos Garcia, who is a an attorney. He's a resilience trainer, he's a lot of things. He worked for jag for a while. Never did see him on the TV show, though, but that's probably good. But anyway, we're going to talk about his life, his world, what he's doing, why he does what he does, and all those sorts of things. So I don't want to give you a lot of information, because I want him to provide it all. So we'll just start this way. Carlos, I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here. Carlos Garcia  02:06 Thank you for having me. Michael, Michael Hingson  02:09 well, I love to always start this way. Why don't you tell us about the early Carlos growing up and some of those things. Ah. Carlos Garcia  02:18 So I grew up in a small valley called Simi Valley, California. It was once dubbed the safest city in the country back in 2001 I believe it was from the new New York Times article, or an LA Times article. And I grew up there. My childhood home was there. And my dad humble beginnings, truck driver, my mom was a stay at home mom, and was a really, one of those kids that did really well in school. Growing up, I got good grades. I have that analytical mindset, always trying to be organized and structured. And, you know, I went to school at different schools, and I realized that after a while I started not being able to I came to an impasse, essentially, where I had this feeling of being an imposter that haunted me throughout school, through college, through Law School, even as an early attorney and I realized that this feeling of not being good enough, it was really an amplification of something deeper, which I came to learn was something called fear of judgment, or fear of people's opinions. Sometimes there's an acronym for it, called fopo fewer people's opinions, because there's this quote that I like to talk about from this 20th century psychologist. His name is Alfred Adler. I don't know if you've heard of him, but he has an awesome quote that was very eye opening for me. And he once said that all problems are interpersonal problems. In other words, if there weren't people around you, you wouldn't have this feeling of being inadequate to begin with, right? In other words, it's this fear of being judged. It's this fear of negative evaluation, being in the spotlight, all eyeballs on you that creates this fear. And so this was my problem, right? And through time and personal experimentation and research, I needed to figure out a way in terms of how to break from this, because it was really holding me back. In many ways. It created inside of me this avoidance, almost a habit of avoidance, this and it just turned into my personality. I would avoid opportunities wherever I'd be in the spotlight, and so through that, I needed to sort of rebuild myself. Eventually I created true profit. Progress lab to share the insights that I learned and the experiences that I learned, because it's, it's it's an awful feeling to know that you're ambitious and you know you're qualified for things, but you just don't have, you know, there's this impasse, this this fear that that stops you from going after it, right, getting after it, going after those opportunities. So that's sort of a little bit of little bit of my background. Well, what I'm curious about, Michael Hingson  05:33 I'm always fascinated to talk about fear in so many ways. But why is it that so many people have this fear of other people's opinions. Why is it that we have, and I'm going to deliberately put it this way, but why have we learned that? Because it seems to me, it's probably more of a learned behavior than anything else, because we can also unlearn it. But why? Why is it that we tend to, all too often face that and we're afraid of whatever people think. Carlos Garcia  06:05 Yeah, I think it has a lot to do with our past. It's a learned experience where we something happened to us in the past, and then that fear starts to generalize itself, and then it shows up in different ways in our lives. And so what happens is that we generalize that fear, and then, because the mind has a way to perceive threats, and often it perceives it perceives threats in an exaggerated manner. And so what that does is it keeps us in that safe zone, right? So what I have found in my experience is that I needed to train my mind, specifically my amygdala, right, that that fight or flight response, I needed to train that and teach it that there is nothing to fear from the get Go from the beginning, and that the worst case scenario thought that we're having, that those those those overthinking thoughts that we're going through, thinking that that worst case scenario is going to happen, I needed to violate that prediction, right? There's something in exposure therapy called violating your fear prediction, which means you have to go into the thing that's causing you anxiety, and then see if that prediction that you're having before stepping into that event, see if it actually happens. And most of the time it doesn't happen. So therefore you're training your mind and teaching it that there's nothing to fear, and if it does happen, you're still going to survive, you're still going to be breathing, you're going to be okay, right? And that's something that, that I do at true progress lab is, is using this form of exposure therapy, which teaches people like you have to desensitize yourself to these stressors. Michael Hingson  07:56 Yeah, I, you know, I've talked a lot about fear, especially in the last few years, but certainly since September 11, when when I escaped from Tower One. And as I tell people, it took a long time for me to realize that the reason that I was able to function after the plane hit the building was that a mindset kicked in because I knew what to do to to escape the buildings, and that a mindset kicked in that caused me to be able to function and not fear everything that comes along, and especially since the pandemic hit, I've been studying a lot more about this and wrote a book entitled live like a guide dog that talks about fear from the standpoint of what I've learned from working with eight guide dogs and my wife's service dog. And one of the things that comes up in discussions in that book, that we all often talk about here is that, in fact, most as you point out, everything that we fear isn't going to come to pass anyway. And the the other aspect of that is that we worry about everything under the sun. We are always doing what if about every single thing. And the reality is more than 90% of the things that we what if we don't really have any control over, but we don't separate ourselves from them. And so the result is that we just continue to worry about them. And I know one of the things that I learned on September 11 is, don't worry about what you can't control. Focus on what you can. We had no control over the World Trade Center happening, events happening, but we absolutely have control over how we deal with it. Carlos Garcia  09:38 Yeah, yeah. And the point about what you mentioned that when the towers hit, you knew what to do like this. This mindset kicked in, right? And that made me think about being proactive. In terms of we have this habit of waiting for things to happen to us instead of being proactive. Taking proactive responsibility. So what that means in practice is what I learned about my life is that I needed to stop letting things happen to me and start taking a more proactive measure in terms of training for the things that are bothering me, or training for things that were causing anxiety inside of me, so that when I needed to do the real thing, you just act right, just like you said, your mindset just kicked in. You knew what to do, and that is probably because you've trained that in a proactive manner, and so that when the thing actually happens, you know what to do. And that's that's what I needed to so you need to, you need to train outside so that when the real thing happens, you know what to do. You're not waiting for things to happen. You're taking a proactive measure, you know. Michael Hingson  10:50 Yeah, I understand. Here's a question, are you familiar with the term and the industry business continuity a little bit. All right, so, yeah, business continuity, or people who practice it, are the people they call themselves, the what if people, and their job is to really focus on in in their businesses that they're working in, or they're contracted to, either way, but in their businesses, their job is to look for different kinds of things that could be emergencies, and put in place the systems that will be able to keep the business going if there is an emergency or if those things occur. So they're they're doing a lot of what ifing, if you will, to say, well, what if this happens? What do we do in the business? What if that happens? And in fact, the company that I do work with, accessibe, has been doing a fair amount of business continuity. I've not been directly involved with it, but they've been doing it over in Israel because of all the things that are going on over there. And what if? What if their attacks? What if servers go down? How does the company keep going in the US and so on? What's really interesting to me is these people, and I'd be curious to get your take on it, but these people do that, but they're clearly not fearful. They're they're anticipating and putting things in place, but I've not ever heard that they're afraid. Why is that? Why is that? Carlos Garcia  12:30 Yeah, that makes me think about this. This quote from Seneca, who's a stoic philosopher, and he said, The man lost his children, you too can lose yours. The man who has anticipated the coming of troubles takes away their power when they arrive. So it's about visualizing worst case scenarios and even taking a next step which is more advanced is living out the worst case scenario. It kind of goes in line with desensitizing yourself to the stressor, right by envisioning it. Because, as you may know, when you visualize things, it's almost like doing an actual rep, right, right? So when you visualize it, when you think about it, you take away it's, it's complete power over you, because you've thought about the situation and then you've actually made me taken the next step of actually formulating an action plan about it, so you're less anxious about, Okay, what if this happens? Then I actually, I could actually maybe have an action plan in terms of what I need to do next, you know? So it's a way to create distance, I think, between the fear and what may may or may not happen, right? Michael Hingson  13:41 Well, yeah. And the reality is that with most people, we What if everything to death, but we're doing it out of fear as opposed to out of planning. And as you point out, when you're doing it as part of creating a plan or as part of truly anticipating potential, then you've taken away the stressor part, right? Carlos Garcia  14:05 Yeah, there is a big difference between just saying what if and having those scatter, scatter thoughts and replaying the what ifs in your mind, versus okay, this is a negative or potentially worst case scenario thought I'm having. So is it true? What can I do to plan? You know, we have there's the technique we call we we call rational optimism, which is from this psychologist. He's known as the father of psychology. His name is Martin Seligman. You may have heard of him, what he calls a learned optimism, and essentially is putting your thoughts that you're having in your mind, putting them against the wall and acting like an objective fact finding detective and trying to figure out, okay, are these thoughts that I'm having? Are they actually true? Like, what's the evidence for these thoughts? What's the evidence against these thoughts? Right? And it's kind of to your point about the. You know, worst case scenario. Okay, is this worst case scenario? Could it actually happen? Or am I just really exaggerating, you know, and being intentional about that, I think, is important. It's difficult, because when you're in the heat of passion, your mind is going nuts, and you need to have those techniques in your back pocket to kind of come down to reality and say, Okay, what am I? Am I exaggerating? Here? Am I thinking things that are just not true, right? Michael Hingson  15:35 Well, clearly, I think no one ever thought or not enough to put it into put a plan into action. But no one ever thought that somebody would fly a large aircraft totally loaded with jet fuel into a building of the World Trade Center or into the Pentagon until somebody did. And so was that a failure on someone's part, I'm, I'm not sure that it is or was, but also, having seen it happen, it also then created, I think, more of a mindset to work harder, to try to anticipate potentialities. Carlos Garcia  16:20 Yeah, yeah, I think that's very true. Because, I mean, I can't imagine being this in that situation that you were in, but yeah, more of a reason to really think of think outside the box in terms of what could potentially happen, right? And again, I think it goes back to just being proactive and and being intentional about those things. Michael Hingson  16:45 We spend so much time teaching people to fear so many things and fear them in a in a negative way. I don't have any problem with people having a a fear, a respectful fear of one thing or another. But the issue is, if you fear it and let that fear overwhelm you, or like, I like to say, blind you, that's a different situation. I think there's, there's no problem with the point of being afraid or having a fear. I don't want to say being afraid, but having a fear of something, but you use that fear to help you focus and to help you be more aware of what goes on around you. That's a whole different animal than just being afraid and then letting that fear overwhelm you. Carlos Garcia  17:38 Yeah, for sure. I think some nerves are good, some, some fear is good, because you need it to perform too. It's, it's, it's positive energy. If you, if you see it as positive energy, then you can use it to your advantage. But if you, if you see fear in a way that makes you defensive and you see it as a threat, then it's not positive energy. Now you're in that, that fight or flight mode, and you're you're thinking, Okay, I need to protect my ego, or I need to protect myself against this perceived threat. And there's a big difference in terms of how you see that, how you see fear, if you see fear as a good thing, like, you know, this mindset stress is enhancing mindset. If you see stress as as a good thing, in terms of using it to your advantage to perform better, then you're going to perform better. If you see it as a negative thing, then you're going to make it you're going to try to make it go away. But I think you shouldn't try to make stress or anxiety go away, because I think you should get stronger despite the stress, because you are, you're going to get stronger, right? They're always going to be problems and challenges, and as you grow, you're going to build businesses, or you're going to have more difficult conversations. You're going to be exposed to more things you can't hide under a rock, right? You're going to be the more exposed you are to things, the more potential stress there's going to be. So making stress go away is not a smart strategy for me. I think I need to become comfortable in the uncomfortable. You know, we either get stronger, we or we don't get stronger, right? Michael Hingson  19:22 Well, and I certainly don't expect everyone to become Mr. Spock and have no emotions. We're not going to be Vulcans, but I think that we all can learn to be a whole lot more analytical. We all can learn to exercise a lot more control over our lives. And again, that's an area where we do have control. We may not be able to control what happens to us, some unexpected thing might occur, like, you know, anything from losing a job to a fire that comes in your neighborhood or whatever, but we do have control, again over how we deal with it, and. I think that's the big issue. How do we get people in general to become more analytical, to become more aware that they have to really study themselves and teach themselves how to deal with fear? Because I don't, I don't think, well, we don't teach that generally, and kids don't grow up learning that, and one of my favorite examples of fear and all that is I listen to the weather forecast every day. And my gosh, those people, those weather people, are never satisfied. It's too hot, it's too cold. Well, it's a good day today, but there are clouds, there are always butts, there are always things that cause people to react and that that doesn't contribute to us learning anything positive or productive, to overcome fear. Carlos Garcia  20:50 Yeah, yeah, there's always on the news. You, you turn on the news, and it's always this FOMO fear of missing out, or this, this mind, just try, because it's such a good marketing technique to keep you in this. You know, this is, this is what's going to happen if you, if you don't do this, this is what's going to happen if you do that right? And I think it takes studying a little bit of marketing to see what's what's trying to deceive you and what's not trying to deceive you. I think I've learned that over the years. And running my business is seeing when people are trying to scare you and when they're not trying to scare you. But on a on another point that you said about how can we become more analytical with fear? I think it starts with being in simmering, in the in the fear, in the anxiety and again, teaching your mind that it's okay, like it's gonna be okay, right? Because if you can't get to a certain, you know, if you're, if you're, say you're different levels of discomfort, say, one being the lowest stress discomfort level, and 10 being, you know, you're panicking basically, right? If you're going into a situation and you're like, at a level seven or six, anything above six, you're not going to really be able to use that, that that thinking part of your brain, because you're going to be in that fight or flight mode. So you first need to relax yourself. You're you need to, like, quiet your amygdala, that part of the brain that is making you all tense and defensive. And then once you do that, then you you allow room to Okay. Now I can maybe start thinking about thinking on my feet. Now I can maybe start being creative using my intuition, smiling, right, showing up as my best self. But you can't do any of that if you're not, if you're if you're all stressed out, right, if your discomfort level is so high. So I would say the first thing is, is learning how to become comfortable in the uncomfortable. And then you can start to whip out some nice, interesting, intelligent ideas with your mind, right? Michael Hingson  23:04 How do you teach people to do that? Carlos Garcia  23:06 Yeah, that's a great question. So we work backwards. So first we identify what is the thing that's causing, causing the anxiety? Because we found that it's always this, the specific situation, but not so much the situation. It's the fact that you're in the spotlight that there are eyeballs on you, right? So when there are eyeballs on you, it can be in different situations. Maybe it could be at networking events. Maybe it could be during delivery presentations or deliveries. It could be doing like an investor pitch before you know, a Shark Tank, for example, or being in a meeting with senior leadership and having to speak up and and there being potential conflict. So these could be situate potential situations. Then you got to work backwards and and see, okay, how can I train for these situations outside of the workplace where the stakes are not so high, and train for that with realistic stress levels, so that I feel stress and I know what it's like to be in these situations, and then so that when I become comfortable, then I can take that new experience and wisdom into the workplace. I know what it's like to be in those situations. I know how to manage my thoughts and emotions. I know what to tell myself. I know how to communicate. You take all that knowledge into the workplace so that you can shine in the workplace, right? It's just like Olympians or the Special Forces community. You know, Navy SEALs, Special Forces in the army, that's how they train. Their training is much more difficult than the actual mission, and that's intentional. That's on purpose, so that when it's time to shine, they can shine Same, same approach we take. You know, you train hard outside of the workplace, so that you bring that new. Build Confidence into the workplace. You don't want to do that necessarily in the workplace, right? Because the stakes are higher. You need to perform. You know your bosses may not be as empathetic or understanding. You know there may not be that psychological safety that that people are looking for. You know you can't wait for psychological safety to show up for you to then shine. You have to. You have to learn to shine it. You know, in the absence of of that, Michael Hingson  25:32 one of the things that I've advocated and advocate and live like a guide dog is it would be very helpful to take time at the end of the day. We need to learn to be more introspective anyway, but to take the time when you're starting to fall asleep, when you get in bed, to think about what happened today, what worked, what didn't work. I never use the term failure because I don't think that that negative connotation really helps. But you can talk about what worked, what didn't work. Why didn't something work like you expected it to, and then carry that to what were you afraid of? What what caused you fear? And what can you do to overcome that, or even with what worked really well today, and how might I even make it better next time. But if you really ask yourself those questions, I also think that most all of us truly have the answers within us, if we would but learn to listen for them. Carlos Garcia  26:32 Yeah, that's that's such a that's such a great point, Michael, we need to create that space and that time after situations or events or experiences where we can actually reflect and ask those important questions, because it's about, okay, what am I asking myself the right questions so that I can then, then it starts triggering some thoughts, and it starts triggering some reflection in terms of, okay, am I actually learning something out of this experience? You know? And like you said, I mean, it's not, it's not failure. You know, in the military, we have something called AAR after action review, right? Every training mission or actual mission, we ask very similar questions to the questions you just asked, you know, what went well, what didn't go so well? What could we do better next time? Simple questions, but very effective, right? Yeah, you got to keep things simple. Keep it simple silly, right? Yeah. And you know, it's not, it's not failure, it's learning. There's no There's no progress. Until you know I had, I had to learn how to to fail. And learning how to fail is understanding that, like you said, you know, it's there is no failure, right? The failure is about learning, not not keeping in a persona, or keeping an image or or wanting certain individuals to think of you in a certain Limelight or way, right? It's about becoming comfortable with a failure, and you know you'll have less hesitation with it. You'll start taking more imperfect action, because you understand that, you know failure is is learning, not about proving things to people you know, and I think, you know, I've had a hard time with that, is trying to and it's so exhausting, too, right? When you're trying to uphold an image of yourself, it's exhausting because you shouldn't focus on upholding an image of of a certain image of yourself. You should focus on learning. You should focus on on making mistakes and learning from them, like you said, and then asking those, those important questions, right? So that you can reflect on that. Michael Hingson  28:57 One of the things that I used to say all the time, and I've talked about it here on the podcast before, but is I used to say I'm my own worst critic when I would record my speeches and I want to listen to them to hear what I did and didn't do and so on. And I always made the comment as justification for it, I'm my own worst critic. And only in the last couple years, only in the last year actually, have I learned that's not the right thing to say, because it's such a negative thing. But rather, I'm my own best teacher, because, in reality, I'm the only person who can truly teach me anything and get me to learn. Other people can provide information, but only I can truly assimilate it. And the reality is, I'm my own best teacher. You're your own best teacher. And when we work to truly learn from our experiences, we'll move forward. Carlos Garcia  29:50 Yeah, yeah, we tend to be really hard on ourselves, right? And, you know, like you, I found that I. Needed to learn how to be kinder to myself and not picking everything apart and having this perfectionist mindset. Right? Often we say, Oh, we're, you know, we take pride in being a perfectionist, but often, I found that perfectionism is just a disguise for going back to fear of being judged, right? And so what happens is that we over prepare, we overthink, we fear making mistakes, and we call ourselves a perfectionist, but perfectionism is really a disguise for that. So think being kinder, yeah, being Condor, I think is Michael Hingson  30:43 and there are times to beat up on yourself if you don't, if you don't learn from the mistake, if you go and do the same thing over and over again, then you somewhere along the line, have to slap yourself upside the head and go. Wait a minute. Why am I doing this? Because I know it's not right. Why am I continuing to do it? I'm not catching on to something here. Carlos Garcia  31:05 Yeah, no, that's true for sure. Yeah, you have to slap yourself if you make the same mistakes. Michael Hingson  31:11 Yeah, if you just don't change. And again, it's all about becoming wise enough to make changes when there's a need to do it, to not only eliminate the fear, but to be able to progress and do something in a much more positive way. And I think every time we figure that out and we do it, we should celebrate and absolutely should celebrate it. We should be joyful that we figured this out. We don't make that mistake again, we won't make that mistake again, or rather than a mistake, we just won't operate that way. We're going to change the way we do it. Carlos Garcia  31:48 Yeah, I think that's such an important point of celebrating your tiny wins and rewarding yourself, even not, you know, taking yourself out to a restaurant, but just making a note of it almost I actually have a log for things that I've overcome, you know, I call it my proof list, and it's just a simple log with dates of events, of things that I overcame or I succeeded in. And they could be small things, you know, like doing a presentation in front of this group of people, or, you know, winning this competition, or even participating in a competition. And, you know, reviewing that and reminding my mind that, okay, I've done these things. You know, I should have reasons to celebrate, because the mind is so fragile we forget things. You know, we're so busy with work, we're busy doing other things that if you don't schedule a time to remind yourself of the things that you overcame and the things that you your accomplishment, they're just going to fizzle away. You know? They're going to fizzle out again. Forget about them. So I think that's that's something I've been doing for the past several years Michael Hingson  33:01 well, you you went through a period where you had a lot of these fears and so on. And what really caused you to change and grow and take a different tack to what you you were doing, because I know you were a Jag and a lawyer for for 10 years and so on, but yet some of these fears were existing in your mind, what did you do? Carlos Garcia  33:24 Yeah, it was an accumulation, I think, of things, and a time that I took to reflect on my life and realize that I was just avoiding there were great opportunities that I was being given, and I was avoiding those opportunities or making illogical excuses for why I shouldn't stretch myself or take advantage of them. Work related, non work related. And, you know, I just said enough was enough. I can't be doing this, you know. And I started taking a stand. I think it starts. I think it starts with reflection, you know, realizing there's a problem. And then the second thing for me was getting a little bit angry, a little bit angry, a little bit aggressive, because you need, I think anger could is a very powerful emotion if you can channel it in the right way. And for me, it was anger at myself in terms of why I was missing out on these, on these things. And then I realized, okay, things needed to change. And I started, like many other people start they start reading, they start researching, they start experimenting with things. I started doing a lot of physical training. I learned that moving the body and stressing the body is a powerful way to learn how to manage your thoughts and your negative emotions, because if you think about it, what are the things that ultimately derail us? They're our emotions. Right that get the best of us, fear, anxiety, stress, frustration, boredom, anger, these things, they make us avoid things, avoid opportunities, or they make us quit early. And I learned that stressing my body through rigorous physical exercise, whether it's ultra endurance running or combat sports, it's these things. There are these activities, are are vehicles or or arenas where you can intentionally train your mind to learn how to IE, learn how to manage those negative thoughts and emotions so that they don't control your decision making, so they don't control your actions, so that you're taking the right actions despite not feeling a certain way Right, yeah, because I had a bad habit of of letting my emotions dictate my actions, you know, I don't feel like doing this today, or I'm too scared to do that, and therefore not doing it right, versus okay, I feel this way, but in spite of feeling this way, I'm still going to do it. And you know, I learned that through learning techniques on how to manage my thoughts and emotions right. And then the other important piece was the mental conditioning, like the example I just gave you with recreating your environment, the things that cause you anxiety, and then replicating that outside the workplace, and then bringing that new experience and Confidence into the workplace, right? Things like things like that. Michael Hingson  36:43 You know, I know it's me, but I am so amazed that one of the top fears that people have is a fear of public speaking, and I still don't understand really why. Of course, I'm coming from a place of knowledge, and I know, for example, that audiences really want speakers to succeed unless you know, unless they truly view you as the enemy, which they do with politicians and things like that, but mostly especially in the speaking arena, I think audiences want people to succeed. They want to hear what you have to say, but so many people are afraid to go out and speak. Carlos Garcia  37:27 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And in my experience, it's a fear of being humiliated, a fear of failing in public, right? We have these worst case scenario thoughts that we're going to mess up, and that controls our thinking, Yeah, and so what I found is that you need to live out your worst case scenario and realize that it's gonna be okay, right? It's gonna be okay, and then practicing so we have something called intentional embarrassment or intentional humiliation, where you put yourself in potentially embarrassing situations where you feel that emotion because you need to become desensitized to it. You need to expose yourself to it, because it's going to happen. You don't want it to happen when you're speaking in front of a group of people, right? You want to know what it feels like, so that when you're in front of a group of people, you're not going to you're not going to break you're going to be like, Okay, I felt this before. Not a big deal. I know how to reroute myself and get back on track, right? And you know it also comes from this notion of taking yourself too seriously, right? Are you there to put up a image, to uphold an image of yourself? Are you there to provide value to people right before you step on stage, like, what's your purpose? Right? If you're thinking about you, you you and not about okay, how can I contribute? How can I help people? How can I bring value that's going to mess you up too? Right? Sure, so being so externally focused instead of, or not externally focused, but being so internally focus, instead of focusing on, you know, how you can contribute, right? Michael Hingson  39:05 And the other part of it is that you may even on stage mess up, and again, if it happens, what do you do about it? I've been pretty fortunate to be able to speak and not really had a lot of problems with that, but I know that, having worked in radio for a while and made a couple of mistakes on the air, the best thing to do is to laugh at yourself and learn to move forward. And I've observed a number of people. I think probably one of the best examples is Johnny Carson, who, for many years on The Tonight Show, did all sorts of things, including, I know, sometimes messed up and made fun of himself, and knew how to move on and turn what was potentially an embarrassing situation into a positive thing, and bring the audience with you. And I think those are all pretty. Preparations that we all need to learn to make. Carlos Garcia  40:02 Yeah, that's, that's an awesome point laughing at yourself and owning your mistakes. You're owning your flaws. It's so powerful because you're not letting the audience do it. You're doing it yourself, right? You're owning, you're allowing yourself to make mistakes and laugh at yourself. And that has a way of taking, you know, owning it, right? It has, it has a way of creating power in you and taking the power away from other people who may make fun of you. They can't make fun of you because you've already made fun of yourself, right? And, or you join them, or you join them, yeah, exactly. So, yeah, I think that's a great, a great strategy, laugh at yourself, yeah, Michael Hingson  40:43 and that gets back to what you were saying earlier. Don't take yourself too seriously. And all too often we do that. But the reality is, and as I tell people who come on this podcast, the only rule is you got to have fun. And I want people to have fun. I want people to have interesting content to talk about. We certainly do here. But at the same time, I want people to enjoy themselves and to relax and to have fun, because it's so much more important to do that. Carlos Garcia  41:13 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm a recovering stiff take myself too seriously kind of guy, you know, I'm still, still recovering from that, and in my profession too, it's, it can get very stiff, you know, attorneys can get very stiff. And, you know, that's one of the causes of burnout, because you're trying to uphold this image, and so you're overworking yourself to the ground, or you're taking more work than you should be taking. And what happens is you burn out, right? Yeah, from all this, from this core concept of wanting people to like you, yeah, wanting to be disliked, you know, not wanting to be judged by people, people pleasing, right? It all comes from that, right? Michael Hingson  42:00 Well, you were a JAG officer and so on. How long did you do that? Yeah. Carlos Garcia  42:04 So I commissioned in 2016 of August. August. 2016 into the army JAG corps reserve. So we have an active component and a reserve component. So I commissioned as an officer into the Reserve component. But I've been on active duty. I've gone on active duty tours. I've mobilized in different different places in the US and overseas as well. I've been doing this since 2016 and most recently. So you have different positions in the JAG corps, and I'm a I work in TDs, which is stands for trial defense service, so it's defending soldiers who've been charged with adverse actions, charged with crimes, and I represent them essentially on the military side. So it's it's a lot of fun. It's very fulfilling. I love it. I've been doing TDs, and you can do different areas of law in in the JAG corps. But I love TDs. I love the, you know, representing the underdog, because, because it is the underdog, it's the government, the prosecutor on the military side. You have the paralegals on the military side. You have all the personnel on the military side, and the military right against the TDS lawyer, jag lawyer, and and the client and the resources that we have. And I like this idea of representing the underdog. It's it's very fulfilling for me. Michael Hingson  43:35 So I assume you win some cases. Carlos Garcia  43:38 Yeah, yeah. I win some cases I lose. Some cases, it just depends on what the evidence is. But it really is a lot about humanizing the soldier, learning about who they are, as a person, as an individual, where they come from in the world. What are their aspirations in the military, why they joined the military? What happened? You know, really humanizing and providing context, because the judges, they don't really know the individual, you know, they just see a piece of paper and a charge, right? And so it's, it's our job to paint a picture of of who this person is, and he's a human. Everybody you know makes mistakes. You know leaders make everybody leaders make mistakes. Non leaders make mistakes. Michael Hingson  44:38 So I love it. So what is true progress labs? Let's get to that. Carlos Garcia  44:45 True progress lab is the organization I started some years ago, as I was saying, and I help people learn how to become calm. In situations that stress themselves, or they get stressed out, and then after they learn how to become in those situations, they can then become bold in those situations and get after it right, seize the opportunities that they want to seize. And I help both individuals and I go into organizations and do workshops, resilience and leadership workshops. And it comes a lot from my personal experience. And then when I became an army resilience trainer on the army side, where I coach leaders and soldiers at jag attorneys on on resilience, very similar topics on how to manage stress and build resilience in the workplace. It's a program we have in the army that was built several years ago. It's a train the trainer program so people soldiers, such as myself, they get trained in resilience training, and then we go back into our unit, and we train those concepts and principles in our respective units and help help other soldiers, other leaders, develop resilience. And a lot of what I learned there, I infused into true progress lab, because I realized, you know, like myself, I liked a lot of resilience, and the army Resilience Program taught me a lot, and it's, it's, it's definitely something that I never thought I would be doing, because, you know, I went to law school, and now I'm, I'm a resilience coach, right? Michael Hingson  46:39 So what does that mean? Exactly when? What is resilience, and how do you teach it? Carlos Garcia  46:45 Yeah, resilience is I define as the ability to bounce back, but not just bounce back, and not just be flexible, right in spite of challenge or adversity or uncertainty, but be able to thrive despite it right to be able to use adversity as a stepping stone to get stronger and go after those big opportunities, and the way we train it is very similar to what I described some moments ago, which is about creating identity, expanding experiences that build the kind of evidence and proof that you are that person that can get through these difficult feats, that you can get through these difficult challenges. And it's about stacking those pieces of evidence so that you can actually go after those big opportunities, so that you can actually shoot high, so that you can actually shine when it counts in the workplace. Yeah, and we do that through the physical conditioning and the mental conditioning that I was describing earlier, and learning how to manage your thoughts. You know, like we give these techniques on on managing your emotions and thoughts, these emotion and nervous system regulation protocol, because you need that, right? Because you're gonna, you're gonna fail. You're gonna, you know, it's not all roses, it's you're gonna, you're gonna go through these experiences and challenges. You're gonna, you're gonna fail. But that's what makes you resilient, right? Is learning how to learning how to get back up despite the failure. And if you don't know how to do that, you're gonna stay on the ground. You don't want you don't want to stay on the ground. You want to be able to know what to tell yourself so you can get back and and try again, right? Michael Hingson  48:31 And of course, it's all about it's not so much the whole word failure, as it is learning to deal with mistakes, but but you do have to learn resilience. You do have to learn to to bounce back, and we all should do more of that than we probably do. And I realize there are a lot of different kinds of personalities, and some people will do it more easily than others, but again, there's so much that we don't train, for example, children growing up that it would be so, so good if we spent more time doing some of these things with our kids. But unfortunately, we didn't learn it either, and that that doesn't help the process, Carlos Garcia  49:10 for sure. Yeah, there is a concept that sticks with me from this psychologist. Her name is Angela Duckworth, and she has a concept that she describes she calls people who haven't really learned how to fail, fragile perfects. And basically it's this notion that you have really smart kids, or people are very talented and they're used to winning all the time. But when they fail, they don't know how to fail, because they've never failed, and so when they fail, they have a difficult time getting back up, right? And so that's why, you know, I'm all about creating, being proactive in terms of creating those stretch experiences or those challenging experiences for yourself, so that you callus your your mind. So that you learn how to be res, because you need because you're going to have failures in life, right? And if you're not used to failing, it's going to be, it's going to be very difficult for you. You're going to have all these Ivy League degrees, but you're not going to know what to do when, when things get bad. Michael Hingson  50:18 Yeah, you're not going to learn what the real world is truly all about, correct? Carlos Garcia  50:23 And so it's going to get bad, yeah? Michael Hingson  50:26 Well, so you coach people all over the world. You don't just coach people in the military. Carlos Garcia  50:34 No, on the military side, I'm an Army resilience trainer. So that's only the military, but true progress lab is civilian, and it's in the US, so we do one on one coaching, but I also do workshops inside of organizations, law firms and tech companies, on resilience, on how to build resilience, and some leadership training as well. But it's a lot of it has to do with resilience. Michael Hingson  51:02 So what are your clients biggest struggles? When they come to you? Carlos Garcia  51:07 There are a lot of symptoms that we find, and it depends highly on on who they are. You know, if it's a leadership team or if it's like a smaller team, but it runs the gap. But the common themes that we've seen are dysfunctions within teams. Dysfunctions within teams. That's number one, and number two is not knowing how to handle the pressure. And as a result of not knowing how to handle the pressure, there are a lot of mistakes that are being made there. There's a lot of blaming that is that is being done, and that causes more team dysfunction. So it's almost like, like a vicious cycle, right? So one of the things I like to do is because when I do these workshops, people want to see, they want to see, okay, how do we build a how do we build a good team? How do I become a good leader? But it's, it always starts with, we find a common theme starting with the person, right? It's the leader themselves, in terms of not knowing how to manage themselves, their internal state, because they want to handle teams, but first they need to learn how to handle themselves. So we like to start with personal resilience, like, how do you manage yourself? How do you manage your thoughts, your emotions, your nervous system when you're in high stress situations? And then from there we start. Okay, now I can think a little clearer. Now let me see more objectively what is actually going on here, because we go in there and people are thinking something, but then they realize that, after they learn how to manage their thoughts and emotion their nervous system, they have a clear picture of what's actually going on. So that's very eye opening. Michael Hingson  53:03 One of the things that you said part of it already, but you say get calm. Get bold and get after it. What do you mean by that? Carlos Garcia  53:11 Yeah, get calm is about learning how to manage your thoughts and emotions and nervous system when you're in a high pressure situation, becoming comfortable in the uncomfortable becoming okay with having eyeballs on you, like you said earlier, right when you're doing your presentations, you you've learned not to really have a problem with it, right? Because after you learn that, then you can actually create room to start taking risks, to start being bolder. You can't be bold if you're not having the the foundation of competence and competent and confidence. Once you have that foundation and you're calm when it's stressful, then you then you allow the space for risk taking, for smiling more, for not seeing challenges as threats, but seeing challenges is challenges. And after you do that, then you can actually get after it. Then you can actually go after those bigger opportunities. It works in that in that order, I have found, in my experience, not the other way around. How do you Michael Hingson  54:16 help people learn that process? Get calm, get bold, get after it. Carlos Garcia  54:21 Yeah, so we do it through the physical conditioning. We do it through the mental conditioning. We do it through learning more about what it is that you want. So something that I learned years ago from this psychologist. His name is, I can't think of him, but he wrote a book leading with character, Jim, I can't remember. His first name is Jim Lauer, and he wrote a book called leading with character. And in that book, I learned that every leader, every person, should have an ethos, a personal ethos, a personal constitution. And what that is is just like a. Country has their own constitution. Each human being should have their constitution of values, of clarity on their mission, clarity on their vision, clarity on what they want their legacy to be about. Once you have that you're much, you have more clarity on what you need to be focusing, on what you need to be prioritizing. And I find, and I have found, that that has really helped me stay focused on the right things and not let the external world modify my decisions and actions. That's a key component of helping people get calm and bold and get after because you need to know what you need to be focusing on in the first place, right? And then building, stacking that evidence, stacking that proof that you are that person, right by doing these hard things, these identity expanding experiences. And then once you have expanded that, that level of comfort in the uncomfortable, then you are allowed to then seize those opportunities, take advantage of those opportunities, because you've created that, you've built that Michael Hingson  56:05 right well. And again, I think one of the really important parts of all of this to keep your own sanity and so on is that you don't take yourself too seriously, and you you really work to to work with people and help people, but you've learned not to stress out, and you've learned that it's important for you to set a role model and an example for the people you work with, and that you coach Carlos Garcia  56:33 Yes, because we take part of not taking yourself so seriously, as you may know, Michael is not relying on job titles, not relying on status symbols, not relying on color belts, because we're not just one job title, we're not our job, we're not a status we are a Growing organism. We are always growing. We're always learning. And so if you think in that way, yeah, you're not going to take yourself too seriously, right? You're not going to you're not going to fix yourself on on identifying yourself as this persona or that job title or that leadership position, because you're in a constant state of growth and learning. And with that mindset comes a mindset of knowing that you shouldn't be so stiff and take yourself so seriously because it's not going to help you get outside your comfort zone when you need to get out your comfort zone and grow, right, right? Michael Hingson  57:39 What do you say to someone who says, Well, I really don't need to learn anymore. I really know all that I need to know. Yeah, I bet you've heard that before. Carlos Garcia  57:48 Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, you have people like that who don't really want to stretch themselves, you know, and that's perfectly fine. I mean, you don't need to read more books if you don't want to, you don't need to stretch yourself. But there's going to be a opportunity that's going to show up and you're going to not know how to take advantage of it, because you decided to be have that mindset, right? Yeah? So, yeah, I found that I need to be in I need to be always stretching myself. Because if I it's your comfort zone is, it is like a drug. You're it's very you. You get attached to it, you get addicted to it, and it's very hard to let go of your of your comfort zone. I have found, you know, and I was like that for years. It was very difficult for me, so I had to create momentum and build a routine of continuous friction in my life, so that I learned to be comfortable when there is discomfort, because if you're always too comfortable, then you're not. It becomes more difficult to jump out and seize that opportunity, because you've been in your comfort, comfort zones for so long that you're not, you don't, you don't want to do it. Your instinct is to avoid or to hesitate, right, right? Michael Hingson  59:08 What would you say to someone who comes to you and says, you know, I'm just continuing to have problems. I've tried all sorts of things and I've just given up. What do you say to them? Carlos Garcia  59:18 You've given up? Okay, well, I can't help you if you've given up, but I would say you have to, you have to stress, stress test yourself. You have to, you know, learning knowledge doesn't really do much you have calming techniques doesn't really do much if you're not creating the type of identity, expanding experiences that that teaches you about yourself, about what you're made of, right? That's why people do all these crazy things. That's why people run 200 miles, because it's a way of learning how to it's a way of learning about yourself, and that's how you stop letting fear control you, how you get bold and get after. Is by creating experiences, not just reading books about it, you know, and and learning about it, but doing it right. So there's this, there's this. I just want to say there's this quote from this stoic philosopher. Is his name is mucelonius Rufus, and he gives two examples that that stuck with me. To illustrate this point, he gives the example of two doctors, right? One of them, you know, talks about medical matters, but has never really actually cared for sick people. The other doctor, though, isn't really able to talk about medical stuff, and he stumbles even when he tries to talk. But he's cared for sick people, right? Who would you rather choose as your doctor? And he gives another example of sailing. One has sailed many times, and the other knows the theory behind sailing, right? He's just read books about it, but he's never really sailed before. He's never been in the sea sailing boats. Which would you rather choose, right as your pilot? So yeah, in other words, you don't acquire strength, courage, mental toughness, which, which you need to build that resilience? Right? By realizing that things that people fear shouldn't be feared, but by practicing being fearless. Yeah, right. Michael Hingson  1:01:29 Well, I know we had a guest on the podcast not too awfully long ago who made a very interesting point, and that is that you can read a lot of things in books, and you can get a lot of information. And we were talking about and the whole concept that I had of the mindset kicked in on September 11, and his point was, but that's different than actually having the knowledge, because the knowledge is really the power, and the knowledge allowed the mindset to kick in and for you to be able to function. And I thought about that, and he's absolutely right. Information is lovely, only to a point, but if you can't truly internalize it and make it work, then it's then it's not going to right, Carlos Garcia  1:02:14 yeah, yeah, go ahead. No, just say you have to apply that knowledge and pressure situations, because you're not going to remember it if you haven't practiced it, right? It's like a martial artist who watches videos of kicks, but if he's never really tried the kicks when it's time to fight, it's not going to just suddenly pop up in his mind, right? You need, you need to internalize it like, like you just said, Michael Hingson  1:02:37 Well, if people want to reach out to you, and I hope they will, how can they do that? Carlos Garcia  1:02:42 Yeah, so I have a website, true progress lab, calm. And then if anybody has any questions, you can email me at hello at true progress lab, calm. And then I'm also on social media. My social media handle on most social media platforms is true progress Michael Hingson  1:02:59 lab, so it's singular lab, right? True. Progress lab, correct.com. And social media handle is to progress lab, well, that's, that's great. Well, I'm sorry we didn't get to meet your daughter. We we had an introductory call, folks, and when we did, she was in the room, so it's kind of fun to talk to her. Yeah, she's two, which she's very, very vocal. Well, I want to thank you for being here. This has absolutely been a lot of fun, and I'm glad that we got to do all of this, and I hope people will reach out to you. I certainly would appreciate it if all of you out there observing the podcast, would reach out to me. I'd love to know your thoughts. Love to know what you think of today. You can reach me. At Michael, H, I m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, love to hear your thoughts. Love to get your opinions and wherever you're watching or listening to the podcast. I hope that you will give us a five star review on the podcast. We value your ratings and your thoughts very highly, so please do that. In addition, if you know anyone who you think ought to be a guest on unstoppable mindset, would love to have introductions, so please have them reach out to me. That would be great. And Carlos you as well. If you've got any thoughts, I'm always looking for people and more people to meet and so on. But this has been really wonderful, and I want to thank you once more for being here and being with us for the last hour. Thank you very much, Michael, it's been a pleasure. Michael Hingson  1:04:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.