Your Adrenal Fix With Dr Joel Rosen

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. I’m here with a great patient of ours to go over his experiences with us, Mark Mariani. He worked with us a couple of years ago. And we have him on the call to be able to discuss some of his experiences with us. So thanks so much, Mark, for joining us today to have a conversation.   Mark Mariani: My pleasure, my honor. I’m glad to be here.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes, thank you. So I always like to go back to your initial paperwork and the things that you wrote in terms of where you are when we first started. And maybe you could talk a little bit about your past history, I know that you had a pretty quiet, quite stressful background, which you felt kind of got you into this mess in terms of pushing so hard and being hard-driven. So maybe let’s talk a little bit about what were you dealing with. And how did you get to where you got to before you and I started working together?   Mark Mariani: Yeah, gotcha. So I’ve lived a pretty crazy life. And it’s a lot of stuff. So I’m going to try to cram it is, you know, as small as I possibly can, and in a short amount of time. So a former Marine, when I was in the Marine Corps, I was with an anti-Terrorism Unit. So traveled all over Southeast Asia, doing these anti-terrorism security measures, as you can imagine, you know, I was in some pretty sticky situations, and you know, it was pretty stressful. So got out of the Marine Corps, went back and went to college, and got a degree in criminal justice with a concentration in private security. Now, when I got out of the Marine Corps, I knew that I had a little bit of, we’ll say, PTSD, hypervigilance, and, you know, just dealing with a lot of the stuff that I did, but I never really addressed the root cause, you know, I was, you know, a Marine, you know, I’m tough and, you know, I can, I can persevere, this isn’t gonna affect me. So as I went to college, you know, never really kind of dealt with it had some sleep issues. You know, I wouldn’t say full-on insomnia, but, you know, definitely wasn’t getting really good sleep. But again, I just never kind of dealt with the root cause. After I graduated, I ended up getting hired by Gavin de Becker and Associates, which is an executive protection firm, based out of California, and I got assigned to a multi-billion dollar family and I ended up running a 10-man protective detail. And as you can imagine, it was full on I lived out of a suitcase, nine months out of the year, you know, running, you know, this, this detail and dealing with his family and just all over the place to timezone changes, you know, it was, again, very, very, very stressful. And the sleep issues got even worse, I ended up you know, just trying to put my, my finger in the hole, and, you know, just all these, you know, simple, you know, fixes that never actually got to the root of the cause I ended up going on sleeping pills. And you know, that’s, that made things even worse, and then, you know, my energy was getting depleted, so caffeine, coffee, etc, etc. So I did that for six years, you know, was pretty burnout realized that wasn’t really my calling got out of that line of work. And then I ended up going back to school, getting a degree in exercise physiology, and getting into the health and wellness field, which I’m currently in. And that actually brought me overseas. So I lived abroad for 11 years, kind of traveled around Southeast Asia worked for multiple different brands as a master instructor running fitness retreats, I’ve opened up a gym, you know, teaching certification courses, and, you know, we’re working with 10s of 1000s of people. Now, in that process, I, you know, kind of burned myself out, you know, I was, you know, traveling everywhere, again, giving everything that I had to everybody else, and I wasn’t necessarily taking care of myself, and you know, kind of doing that, that deep work. And then it just got me to a point roughly about two years ago, prior to when we started working together. Where like it just I crashed, I crashed, I had nothing left in me. You know, just to get up in the morning and get through the day was the drag. The insomnia was horrible. I was only getting a couple of hours of sleep at night. I was stuck in hyper-vigilant mode and didn’t quite know how to get out of it. And yeah, everything just went sour. I ended up getting this position to come back to the US and it was a great opportunity. Didn’t know if I was going to have the energy to do it. But it brought me closer to family back to the US and again a great opportunity. So I decided to do that and I knew that I needed to find somebody that was going to you know in the background you know helped me make some some change. Just figure out exactly you know, what was going on, you know, with with with my body. And then I started doing a lot of research, you know, came upon your website and started, you know, doing a little bit of a, you know, a deeper dive, you know, some videos and I was like, you know, man, you know, I’m gonna check this guy out. And then that’s why I booked the initial consultation with you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Okay, great. Well, you can see why oh, sorry, go ahead. It was a lot of information. Oh, that’s fine. That’s good. You can kind of get a reason why. That’s why people find our mark is that they have a lot of stressors that they experience in their life. And in your case, you can see that there’s a certain amount of hard-wired to be accomplished and driven, and then the military experience and all the stress that that would impact you on the body and then realizing, okay, at some level, I crashed, and I burned. So I guess that’s the question I would ask first, just as a curveball, what was it that made you finally take that next step of Okay, I gotta get this done. Because a lot of the time people are dealing with issues, but it’s not until something acute happens for them to make that next step of like, okay, I can’t keep flying the plane on my own, I gotta find someone else that’s going to help me was Do you remember specifically, what it was for you, Mark that made? You say, Okay, I got I got to actually do something about this now.   Mark Mariani: Yeah, well, whenever like, all system has failed, and I completely crashed in, you know, like, that was getting depressive thoughts and anxiety. And I just knew, I just knew, like, my body was done. And I was like, I need some help. I can’t do this on my own. I mean, there are so many things that I have learned, you know, being in the health and wellness field. But when it like when you’re in such a dark spot, and you have nothing to give, like trying to navigate and figure things out on your own was just, it was just way too complex. And that’s where I was, like, I need to have somebody that, you know, really fully gets it from a functional medicine approach. And no longer could I just put my fingers in the hole and put on, you know, these band-aids and these quick fixes, I needed to get to the roots and you know, implement some, you know, good habits and protocols.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Okay, great. And as far as you mentioned, we had that initial conversation. Do you remember anything about that initial conversation that made you decide, okay, I think this is the guy that is going to help me, is there anything that stood out in your mind before we started working together, we always give the opportunity with our potential patients to ask us whatever questions are for us to do a deep dive to figure out if they have a problem, we think we can help and whether or not we should work together? And this is something they want to do they want to do about it. Was there anything that stuck out in your mind that made you decide to make that leap?   Mark Mariani:  Yeah, first and foremost, I remember you just asking me like, you know, what’s, what’s going on? Tell me a little bit about yourself. And you were just very kind and understanding and empathetic, and you didn’t speak, you just listened. And you heard my story. And I just, I felt, I felt comforted just you know, from that approach, and I was like, okay, you know, I could see that this guy, you being sincere and genuine, and it made me feel really, really, really good.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Good. I’m glad I’m glad. I mean, you can’t fake caring how we say, right, you do enjoy your job and you want to help people, you have two ears and one mouth for a reason. So thank you. And I’m glad that that struck a chord. So as far as you did write down the mark, which I want to ask you about, you knew enough about sometimes people don’t know what they don’t know. But you knew enough about, okay, well, I want to learn about my genetics, what my predispositions are, I know that I need to run better tests that are gonna give me a specific protocol that is for me, only, not just a cookie cutter, throw everything against the wall kind of thing. And I wanted to do it in a holistic type of way for health optimization. So that’s quite sophisticated. You can tell from your background, how you would arrive there. Was that something where you had already gone down the traditional routes and that you were just hitting dead end after dead end? Or was it just you had always been of the holistic mind and didn’t want even go that approach in the first place?   Mark Mariani: No, I mean, it was the, you know, the first statement, whereas you know, I went down the western route, you know, and I saw the gastrointestinal doctor, I saw the neurological doctor, I saw this doctor for sleep and this and this and this and, you know, right away, you know, their approach As you know, let’s match you, you know, here’s, here’s the problem, and we’re just gonna give you a medication that’s just gonna match things and nobody communicated with one another. You know, it wasn’t a team of people working together, it was just this individual approach. And it just failed on all measures. And I was very, very, very frustrated, and deeply dis disappointed. Where it says, you know, as you know, we’re a system of systems. And when, you know, one is out, it affects all the other systems. And I just, I really, you know, was, you know, hoping that, you know, I would find the right person that would understand that, and, you know, and look at everything, so I didn’t have to go 100 different places. I went to one person, they ran all the tests, and they looked at the overall picture, and that was you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s quite insightful. I know, I’ve read a couple of books about the military and so forth. And I guess the main thing that keeps everything running in order is communication, right, and hierarchy. And if the body isn’t run in the same way, you have the specialists that aren’t talking to the generalists, which is what your body is, and there’s nothing independent about the body, everything is related. So kudos to you for doing that. So when we first started, some of the things that I see are gut issues, hair loss, psoriasis, insomnia, really bad brain fog, to your point as to just crashing and burning. So I guess, with our work together, Mark, anything stands out in terms of understanding your genetic predispositions? Or what your specific marching orders were that you’ve continued to do? Or even dovetail into? What are you feeling now, after we’ve worked together? How, how have you recovered? Or how have your outcomes been since working? So the two-part question is basically, the first part is? What do you know about yourself that you didn’t know, that you implemented? And what were the results of that being implemented?   Mark Mariani: Yeah. So before we get to that, I just wanted to chime in and mention one more thing, because you asked, you know, what kind of stood out during that initial consultation. And another thing that really stood out, you know, after I kind of made the decision, you know, to start working with you was the health history questionnaire that I had to fill out, you know, with family history, and, and just all the details, it was, you know, was quite, you know, extensive. And, and I just loved that I loved the fact that, you know, we weren’t just kind of looking at, you know, the current scenario is, you know, it was just, it was just everything and, and, you know, my family, and, you know, my grandma and grandma, and like, you know, kind of going up the, you know, the family history. So I thought that was very extensive, and, you know, gathering that information, it was, it was definitely a good approach. So, getting back to the questions, you know, what, you know, what did, I didn’t really, you know, quite know, you know, before I got into the states, one genetics, I mean, we did that genomic test, and there was a lot of things come back, I mean, one of the ones that, you know, just kind of popped into my mind was, you know, you asked me, you know, Mark, like, you know, are you empathetic? Are you a people pleaser, do you always want to help people? And that’s why I got into the health and fitness, you know, field and the answer was, you know, without a doubt, you know, yes. And you could see that, I mean, I was predisposition, you know, genetically to kind of have this, this snippet. And I saw that play out because there were so many times where I knew that like, you know, I needed more rest, I needed more recovery, but yet somebody you know, it’d be like, Mark, hey, can you do a session on Saturday? Can you do this for me? Can you do that for me? And I never said no, you know, it was always yes, yes. Even though deep down inside, I was like, you know, I don’t know how I’m gonna juggle this. I don’t know if I can handle much more. But I always said, yeah, so you know, that that was definitely something that stood out amongst, you know, just several, you know, other things and know, your approach with pulling up, like, you would share your screen and you pull up all the different diagrams, and you show me how, like, MTHFR affected, you know, the adrenals, and it affected this and you explained everything, and, you know, you just kind of connected the dots off, you know, where I was at my genetics and you know, how it was kind of playing out, you know, which was, which was fantastic. And then we did the comprehensive stool analysis, you know, and that that’s always, you know, to me, you know, oh, the disease starts in the guts, you know, and that’s kind of one of the first things you know, to go to and where everything else stems out and you know, and then we found out that, you know, by doing the test on Um, you know, I had a bacterial infection that was H. Pylori, as well as a parasitic infection, you know, the blastocyst hominess, severe dysbiosis, you know, and imbalance, you know, good guys versus bad guys, as well as in, you know, talking about brain fog talking about insomnia, talk about, you know, these food sensitivities, leaky gut, you know, my zonula Zonulin levels were, you know, through the roof, I don’t like getting that information, and then, you know, taking the right approach, not, you know, hey, let’s throw everything at it to heal the gut. Well, no look, like we got to, we got to take the approach of getting rid of the bacterial infection, that parasitic infections, you know, through the anti-microbial. And then we go in and, you know, we alter the diet, and then, you know, we heal the guts, and it’s a process, it’s a system and having, you know, somebody like yourself that, you know, fully gets it and understands that methodical approach on you know, how to do that was, was a game changer. Healing the guts was a game changer, you know, am I completely out of the woods? No, you know, just because of how bad and how long that I had gut issues. But do I know that now like that intestinal lining is, you know, it is healed? Yes, I do. Because I don’t have those sensitivities, you know, my sleep is, is much better, and you know, the brain fog and just on and on and on. So that was an absolute, you know, a game changer. And then we did the Dutch test to have a look at, you know, kind of cortisol levels and things I thought that were actually going to be a little worse. Beings, you know, where I was at mentally and you know, that hyper-vigilant, sympathetic nervous system overdrive. But, I mean, it uncovered some things, but it wasn’t as bad as you know, I was thinking initially. Yeah, off the top of my cuff, I don’t know, if that answer.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Listen, that’s a great answer. Great answer. Listen, if you can see, if you’re listening to this, this is not a program for everyone, right, because a lot of people just want the, you know, fill in the blanks and, and follow the leader and, and take the magic pill, if you will. And a lot of the times, that’s not gonna work, especially as complicated as it is that we need you to be in the front seat with us, and be able to hand over the steering wheel to us because that’s why you came to see us, but yet, you’re still up there wanting to dry right, which is typically who we’re going to be working with just commenting on your initial comment with reviewing your health history and how in-depth we get. I love doing that to Mark because I do go through that with a fine toothcomb. nothing more frustrating. I’m sure people can relate and you can where you’ll go to a doctor’s office. And it’s not even done electronically. It’s done, you’re having to handwrite everything. And then you go in there and half the time. They’re not even looking at it and the other half of the time they’re asking you questions that you already answered on the piece of paper that they didn’t even look at right so we look at that and I circle and star things to make sure Okay, I got to ask about this because this can be one of those. What was it, doctor? I forget what Doogie Howser or whatever it is where there’s those little you know, there’s those Doctor House right? There are those little nuances where this person could have had exposure to mold or there’s a family history of heart issues. So I definitely want to know about this or so it’s very important to ask those questions and to read them, and incorporate them into your game plan. Number one awesome commentary on the empathy that’s very common with our people is we say you have an antenna that extends out of your head way too high. And it has the Aquaman of fishes coming to you and all these frequencies of the world and wanting to be Mother Teresa and helping everyone on top of the fact that you’re high security, you’re helping everyone you’re saying no to yourself, and yes to them. And, you know, you have the foresight to know okay, I hit the wall with stress. I know typically that’s going to be an adrenal hormone thing, but having the understanding that it’s all one system, and if I’m inflamed, it’s not just impacting my HPA axis. It’s impacting my gut health, my brain health, my neurons, it’s impacting everything, and to go about it in a certain way. So awesome to you that definitely success leaves clues. The other thing I’ll just point out, which is a small but big detail, is the propensity to at the cellular level, not breathe as effectively as you can, because you’re not moving iron out of tissues effectively. So maybe we can talk just a smidgen about that mark in terms of how the whole Iron and blood donation and or just the impact that that has on your health or what you learned about that as well.   Mark Mariani: Yeah, so, um, you know, based upon the standard, you know, bloodwork, you know, in the fair tin, you know, on kind of the indicators of iron and iron overload. And I’m sure you recall that like mine words, you know, these massive.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You weren’t, like, you weren’t a textbook, like a hemochromatosis patient, meaning everything’s just overflowing the out of the bucket, but it was still a dis, what we call a dysregulated. Pattern.   Mark Mariani: Exactly, And then after you, you know, kind of explained that was, you know, that was the case, you know, we came up with a pretty good approach from, you know, supplementation, certain foods, you know, increased copper, how copper is going to, you know, kind of lower than that iron helped flush the iron out of the body, as well, as you know, bloodletting, you know, which I did that, I think was like, every six months, you know, and got a little relief from that. So, yeah, it goes back to, like, you know, there’s no huge, it’s a little on top of a little eventually equals a lot and, you know, in taking those, you know, those, you know, small, you know, little approaches to, you know, free some of the iron that was, you know, stuck and stored in my body, it paid dividends.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. And then I also remember going over the comprehensive stool testing and getting that Zonulin level very low, which was great, because it was super high. And that is a marker of intestinal permeability. And then basically, you have the immune system being triggered more likely for food sensitivities, not being able to make your secretions as much so that can create massive amounts of snowball effect. And I think one of the things we tried to do was, we did diet variation we played around with shifting, your time window a little bit earlier to the left, if I remember correctly, and then also trying to get you to get some more diversity in your GI health, because there was, so between those two, maybe give us some feedback on what you learned there and what you’re doing since then.   Mark Mariani: Yeah, so, you know, when you have intestinal permeability, you know, the body like, you know, it doesn’t matter how good the food is, you know, broccoli, cauliflower, like all these good super organic, healthy food, no matter what you put it in, you know, if it’s getting through that lining, or the, you know, the body, the blood, the cells, you know, it doesn’t recognize it, and it looks at it as a foreign invader. So if you were always comfortable eating, you know, broccoli, and you know, and it made you feel better, and note, and then also now you’re eating it and like all these healthy foods, the body’s responding, you know, you’re getting this inflammation, you know, gas and burping and bloating and, and you’re like, what’s going on. So, you know, when that started to heal, I was able to kind of implement, you know, prebiotics and probiotics, and then food, you know, diversity, but the biggest thing is, it was slowly like, I think, you know, I kind of made that mistake, you know when we were working together, where it was, like, alright, you know, I’m good, you know, I’m just gonna dive in and start eating all these salads and you know, all this good healthy food, but like, my body wasn’t ready for that. So, you know, if I can, you know, give any advice to any listeners that are watching this and, you know, listening to this is play the curious scientist. And, just remember that you know, if one thing doesn’t work, you know, try something else. If that doesn’t work, try something else. And just be curious. And, and, you know, and just realize that, like healings, not lit, linear, you know, it could take months or yours in my case, and I’m still you know, doing work. But be prepared to do the work, be kind, and be gentle. I had to learn this. Be gentle with yourself over the process. And you know, that cheerleader in the background, like, you know, oh, you need to be healthy, you know, you need this energy you, you know, calm that cheerleader down and have that cheerleader work for you and give you a pat on the back because you need that and it’s important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great comment. I think that it’s slow, slow, and steady wins the race, that’s for sure. And then when you have a default mechanism, because I think there might have been one or two times and very seldom because you can see with your attitude already that you know bleeding is a weakness leaving the body you can kind of already see that happening with your mindset. But I do believe there was one time where we got the results back and we might have kicked up the ocean floor and you had I had to maybe talk you down the ledge just a little bit in terms of what was going on.   Mark Mariani: I remember that I was, you know, I was getting a little gain, I was feeling a little better. And then, you know, things kind of stirred up with, you know, one of the approaches we were taking and, and then it was just frustrating because it was like, oh, man, I’m starting to see the light, and you know, you’re taking steps forward, and then all of a sudden, that light just closes, it’s dark, and you feel like you’re going back down the ladder. So and I remember that, and, you know, the pep talk, as well as a little bit of tough love. I remember one time, you know, like, you know, I had said something like, oh, you know, Dr. Rosen, know, why is this not working? And, and, you know, and you were very, you know, just upfront and, and, you know, said, Well, Mark, you know, have you given it enough time, you know, did you do this, did you and you know, at first I was like, Oh man, like, you know, that’s not what I wanted to hear, you know. But then, you know, I realized after we got off the call that you know, it was coming from the heart. It was tough love, and I and I needed that. So that was good.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that was good. And I think also too, I remember just like, hey, like, the game we just mentioned in terms of, even though it’s not a stick, like a hallmark presentation of iron overload that dysregulated pattern is, is root cause number one along with the gut, because if you’re not moving that iron out of the tissues, it will feed the microbes, you’ll have H Pylori and blastocyst. So if we just focus downstream, I’m not multitasking at the same time. So I remember having to insert a little bit of that recognition and like, hey, when was the last time that you donated? What’s going on with these things here, those hemoglobin and red blood cell markers are still sky high, we got to get those down. So we kind of kept it in, in context, I think is what we did. So as far as if someone’s listening to this, and they’re skeptical, they’re like, Well, I don’t know, this would work for me. What would you tell them? Given your experience?   Mark Mariani: Yeah, how would tell them? I don’t know. If I, if we were talking about this, you know, prior to the recording, but, you know, you’ll never find a U haul behind a Hearst. So you know, if you’re in a, in a, a state of mind and body where you’re drained, you’re tired, you know, you’re depressed, you got anxiety, you’re not feeling well, and you’re not living life, you know, to its fullest is stop putting on the band-aid stop, you know, trying to put your fingers in the holes and unplug the dam and you know, invest the money, the best money you can make is, is the best money you can spend is, you know, to invest it in yourself. And you know, without health, there is, you know, there is no wealth. So, spend the money, and, you know, you know, just all the things that we were saying is, is that, you know, having somebody like yourself that oversees the entire process and the full picture, stop going to one person for this and one person for that and, and trying to put all the pieces in yourself. Yeah, I would, I would say, you know, spend the money, you know, understand that, you know, it’s gonna take work, do the work. And you’ll be very grateful that you did.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s great advice, Mark, I eat a lot of people will say, well, and I believe them, that they’ll willing to spend the money, but they’re, they’ve gone to so many different people before. And now they’re concerned about this as another me too. And will this work for me? Because I’ve already done this. And a lot of people will say that they’ve done so many things. And then I’ll ask them about well, did you do the genomic testing? Did you do your blood glucose ketone? Did you do your diet variation? Are you looking at your iron and your metabolism there? Did you incorporate your Dutch test with the GI MAP test? And are you putting all these puzzle pieces together and it’s so much different, like a lot of people say the analogy a lot is water just will not boil at 99.2 degrees Celsius, it has to get to that 100 degrees, right? So even though you’ve gotten that burner up to a certain degree, you can’t fold your arms, and saying this is unfair like the laws of nature aren’t working for me when I want it to when I’m going against you know, the physique. So I think that’s it, that’s a good point. Um, any last things you would want to add a mark in terms of, you know, just your, your whole journey where you are now, all of the above?   Mark Mariani: Yeah, so I did want to chime in and say that, you know, we talked about genetics, we talked about the gut we talked about physiology and those are all great and you know, dealing with somebody like yourself that you know, understands physiology and biology and you know, chemistry and hormones and that whole aspect of it is massive but you don’t just deal with the body, you understand that it is it’s a lifestyle. You know, I mean like, like genes your DNA like you’re born with that and you die with your DNA. It’s you know, the epigenetics, it’s though it’s the lifestyle and the environment around that cell is going to dictate how that cell is going to respond. Are you going to get a disease or not getting a disease? It’s the environment. Well, how do you change the environment? How do you impact the environment? Did you change your lifestyle? Yes, that’s nutrition. But what about like, like, breathwork? What about, you know, prayer? What about meditation, what about, you know, having friends in love and, and things like that the environment and earthing and, and I could just go on and on and on that it’s, it’s, you know, this, this whole lifestyle approach, and you get that you don’t just deal with, you know, the blood in the labs, and, you know, the physiology. It’s everything. And, you know, another thing is, you know, that Biology of Belief is, you know, I know, it’s very cliche that what the mind conceives the body achieves. But you know, what I noticed in myself, and I noticed with, you know, people I’ve worked with in the past, and just people in general is, you got to be careful of the story you tell yourself because the mindset is everything you can have, you know, the greatest diet and exercise plan and everything going well. But if you’re telling yourself this, this broken story, that’s how your life is gonna plan, you know, pan out. So, you know, listen to the story, you’re telling yourself, and you know, if it’s not the story that you want, change the story, change the narrative, and that’s going to impact you know, the mind, that’s going to impact your, your thoughts, your emotions, and then you know, your biology. So that’s super important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, thank you for bringing that up. That is super important in terms of, I always say you have to be congruent with your default mindset, or your belief system, and where you want to get to. And I just want to kudos and recognize recognition for you. Because I know every time we would email each other, it’s like, I’m great. How are you doing? How is your family? You know, you always have that extra sincere, I want to know how you’re doing and I, that goes a long way than just doing your genetics and knowing your blood work. I mean, you that’s the glue that turns the 99.2 to, you know, 200 degrees Celsius, just just as an insight, or just follow up question, are you still saying yes to people, when you should be saying no? Or have you been able to cross that threshold of being able to maybe put yourself first from time to time? How have you done on that aspect?   Mark Mariani: Because, yeah, I’ve done very well with that, you know, just because, you know, you make so many mistakes in the past, and you got to sit there and come to that realization, like, you know, if I keep making the same mistake, that’s the definition of insanity is you keep making the same mistake over and over and over. And then, you know, I just did this last time, was like, enough’s enough, you know, I realized, it’s not that I don’t care or, you know, love or want to help people, because I do, but if my cup is empty, and there’s nothing to give, and then, you know, I’m not utilizing, you know, what God gave me and you know, what he put me on this earth to do to help and impact others. You know, I gotta make sure my cup is full so that I can overflow. Right? And do what I designed, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I say that in a loving way to people that you’re lacking integrity when you do that, like, how do you know, I’m being very nice? It’s like, No, you’re lacking integrity with yourself. You know, if you’re being selfish by being unselfish, right, because if you’re not recharging your own battery to help other people, and you’re just depleting your battery, you’re not being at the best to be able to help people. That’s selfish, lacking integrity behavior in a loving, you know, sincere way. So awesome information Mark much more than I had anticipated. I’m so grateful for you to share your experiences and that our frequencies aligned and we were able to get that resonance of improvement for you and I wish you nothing but future success in all your endeavors got some really exciting business things going on. So I know that it will continue to draw and bring in more more rewards than you probably had anticipated for so thank you so much.   Mark Mariani: My pleasure. And Dr. Rosen, thank you so much from the bottom of my heart for everything that you’ve done for me all the knowledge and, and everything you poured in and in the love you know, it definitely came through and it definitely helped me out. So thank you for being you.   If you are interested in setting up a complimentary consultation with Dr. Rosen to discuss 1) where you are in your health right now, 2) where you want to go, and 3) what needs to be done to bridge that gap, click here The post Former Anti-Terrorism Marine Inspires Others By Overcoming Burn Out – Learn How appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults, the truth about their health and the truth about adrenal fatigue so that we can get them back to an energized way of living quickly and fast. Today I have Daniel the natural path or Daniel Thompson. He’s an American race French trained TRADITIONAL FOODS oriented naturopath, who uses modern and traditional ideas, combining scientific knowledge and intuition for a refreshing solution-focused perspective on today’s challenges. He also runs two companies, one in Texas, and one in France called the Heart of tradition in New US, which really seeks to bring topical magnesium and a blue glass of high quality and purity to the US markets and help others through his discoveries of living 15 years in France. He’s an avid self-taught researcher, Chef, Tango, dancer, basketball, basketball, or opera lover, and to stop loving personality, I have to ask him more about that with a love for the mysteries of life, the wonders of recovery, and homemade raw milk cheesecake. So Daniel, thanks so much for being here today. I appreciate you spending time with us.   Daniel Thompson: Thank you. Thank you. I’m really happy to be here. I was excited to get this message.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. Yeah, I had I had our team reach out to you. So I always like to start Daniel with giving us your health journey, you know, being a natural path and being dedicated to bringing new discoveries to the market, kind of give us a springboard on maybe the Reader’s Digest version of your history and how you got into this in the first place.   Daniel Thompson: Yeah, I went to school as a naturopath in France. And it’s, it’s, you know, it kind of got me into the more to the health side. And I had been studying little things before, but that kind of all connected it and eventually developed this supplement company. In France, we kind of hit the top of the market, they’re doing the transdermal magnesium as well. And it was kind of the first on the market there. So it was kind of a six it was a success and easier success. And then started to come here to do that. I also learned a lot about the Weston Price Foundation and other doctors I learned a lot about nutrition and how to use nutrition as a way to overcome it. I guess you could say, what we see in the American market is a high level of supplementation. In Europe, we find a very intense level of vitamin combinations in food, which do not are not found here. One small example is if you go to Central Market here in Austin, which is the best spot I guess. And you find traditional foods like all prepared and prepared foods, you know, you see no gelatin and you go to Europe, you go to a place like that gelatin is on everything. And so you’re like, well, what’s the difference here? Where’s the gelatin, you know? And so we’ve gotten into a certain way of making things where we have stripped away the assimilators and things that help us to get, you know, you talk about acidity, I’m sure because you work with adrenal fatigue and, and gelatin is the key to that. I mean, some of these ways that we get this stuff to work in the body, and even get the veins the glycine, and everything to work right without the certification has to do with basic principles of nutrition that are used in a daily repetitive, somewhat medical way, but through food.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, absolutely. So as far as going on the next topic you did mention when we were figuring out what’s the best conversation to go down the difference between the European way you just cited an example and the American way. What other ways are you seeing that play out beside the gelatin Daniel?   Daniel Thompson: Difference? Well, as we mentioned before, with the Fogra, like, you know, this is another element that’s very powerful. I know a lot of Americans don’t know about it, but we’re finding out more about the fogger I’ve seen miracles happen using photographs for people I’ve seen women that had the body completely intercepted by soy and like no breast, for example, at 30 years old, and start taking the flag raw like on kind of a gamble like this guy’s crazy and watch themselves change within months and to grow these this back that there was never there and just mind-blowing stuff because the interception of the K two has happened through the genetics through soy and through the lack thereof to like, you know, soy kind of changes some of the parameters and the form. But then we also have the lack itself, the deficiency itself and so it’s really hard to get a good dose of K to MK four and its active form. You can find pills and stuff but this active level is just a different thing. different game, and you see it quicker, it moves faster, and you can go much quicker through it. And it’s not cheap. But then again, I mean, that’s kind of some in some areas that it’s worth it because you’re doing this what the traditions show us to do this, like, you know, three or four times around Christmas, there was this kind of like notion there. And so you trace that same tradition in Japan with the natto. And they have that same tradition you go to Norway, they have a certain type of cheese, they that they have the tradition around that cheese like you know, the Alps, they have a tradition to drink the yellow cream from the cows that finally make it to the snow line. And there’s a whole party and festival around it. Now what did they know, that was all que tu, you know, they knew about it. And so we’ve kind of lost a little bit of it to our own detriment. And, so I just try to I try to stay on that game, it’s a different game because you can’t help as many people with it, because a lot of people are like, What is all that if I can find a way to bring some of that wisdom, a little bit of the Greek wisdom through the bath culture in my magnesium space, and those deficiencies and, and then try to help people find supplements that can get them closer, there are supplements like Emu Oil, like non-refined, which is a little hard to find, but it’s out there. And there are places we can get like, you know, activator, like Ketu, in like Alpine. But there is like supplements like that. And so thank God, we can still find this stuff and an easy approach for Americans that are kind of finding somewhere in between sacred products and sacred foods, or sacred supplements and sacred foods.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Right. It’s a shame, too, because these are foods that are produced by the Earth and the old adage of let food, be thy medicine and medicine be thy food. It’s a lot harder now today. And I guess that’s the question I would ask you is, let’s say even with the foregoing, and the and the liver, if the animals aren’t healthy, and they’re living in a toxic world, and they’re exposed to the water in the air, and the soils that aren’t dense in nutrients is it it’s not a given anymore just to get a fog raw, that’s going to be healthy, that would produce those results. I guess the question is, how much does that factor into? Okay, we want food to be thy medicine, but what if the medicine in the food isn’t? Isn’t there? So I guess what, what are the obstacles are some of the hurdles to be aware of, and to overcome?   Daniel Thompson: Well, you know, the American Indians, they would, when they would have scurvy in the winter, they would eat the actual adrenal gland from the animal. And they would pass it around to the tribe, and everybody would eat this. And so because the adrenal gland contains a very powerful form of vitamin C, not just like ascorbic acid it has, it has a whole other property to it. And so it like that would like kind of recharge for the winter. And they didn’t need much of it, but like, they figured out these ways. And so some of those foods are still all out there, but it’s just far away from most people’s thinking. And, you know, I’m Scandinavian. And so they do blood pudding and black bread, and all this kind of weird stuff. You know, and, and, you know, people are far away from that today. And so it’s just trying to bring some of those traditions back, I think liver is starting to become popular. So people are bringing that back. And it’s just little by little people are starting to realize that throwing away pieces of the animal has kind of great consequences. You know, you want a real beat 12 shot, go get inside of the body of that lobster and get that, that that greenish, like metallic stuff, bam, you know, and you’ll feel it. And so, but we just toss all that, you know, and so there’s, there is a notion of just like re-education, things like that. It’s sad that usually people reeducate on this stuff through downturns, like were they, you know, like the Europeans, they, they don’t waste a lot of food even now, because of the Second World War, what it did. And so I think that, sadly, people go through these experiences, and then they realize that they should be more frugal or prudent with how they’re consuming and, and stuff like that. That’s just one side, there are a lot of good supplements, there is a way for people to halfway get there and get there almost and find that there is a path that meets people where they’re at. It’s just knowing that these deficiencies, especially the k two triangles with magnesium and D, they’re not as easy to overcome as we think by just throwing some synthetic vitamins at them. They do take a little bit more love and effort, but they can be healed. And then that keeps us away from medical slavery. You know, or too much of it, you know, too many.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So okay, well, and I agree with that. I think that really is how to get every part of the animal. I guess more of my question was along the lines, is it harder and harder now with the mass production and the corn-fed way that the livestock is handled and maybe the inhumane ways that they’re being treated, that it’s hard to even with getting at every aspect of the animal, it may not necessarily provide you with the ideal nutrients. I mean, I guess is that a real concern that you’re seeing, just in the world in general, or compared from Europe to us is, and very being aware of? Is it wild? Is it sustainably raised? Is it grass fed? Is it you know, is that something that you have to take those next measures to make sure you’re not just following the advice of getting real food, but real food that that eats real food kind of thing?   Daniel Thompson: Now, it’s true? Well, there are some rules in the body to like, you know, some of the least compromised parts of the animal are the blood and certain areas. And so people were eating that, you know, they would create these blood puddings and BRAC breads and all this stuff, because the blood is the least compromised in a given even in a bad system. And so there is like, There are levels to that. But you’re right like you do have to seek your food, as I go to farmers markets, I typically find most stuff there, there’s a lot of people who order from the Amish, or they do this or they order online, or, you know, and so there are different ways to kind of source to where you can make sure you’re getting soy out of the food, that’s a big one if you can find soy for nonsoy fed chickens and eggs and stuff, that’s great. Or yourself, or small, little farms or whatever. And so it definitely takes a little bit of extra effort. But I tell people, even my mom, I’m like, you know, once a month go the farmers market, get a bunch of eggs, get a bunch of this, throw it in the freezer, you know, it’s gonna be better than then what you’re doing if you’re you know, and there are options out there like even a grocery store even there are options but no, you’re right. Like if we go to Asia, if I walk off farms, I wouldn’t touch any of that stuff. It’s called, you know, steel, Teresa’s, which, you know, liver kind of getting too fatty. And so that makes this like the wrong stuff. But going to France, I mean, those people spend, those are the highest paid animal farms on the planet as far as the product that comes back at the end how expensive it is. So they are better than anyone. And so, but just the way that whole thing works, you know, but I will tell you that no, it is good to seek outside, especially for like, like, I used to make broth with like undiscerning stuff. Like I would go by just bones and stuff and make broth. And like I did toss one time the broth, because I felt like it wasn’t doing it wasn’t helping the digest something was wrong. And so yes, I had to seek out I mean, people got to spend about 50 bucks to make broth, it’s not going to be $2 or five, that was back in the day, when you just get the rest from the butcher, you know, and so you got to spend a little more money to do it. But I think it’s feasible. I mean, when, when the poor, when they had a lot of famine in Scandinavia, everybody ate herring and potatoes and onions. That’s all they had to eat. And they noticed that during this period, the number of cancer cases went down. You know, and it was like, yeah, they got stuck on a very boring and almost like, inexpensive food that we can also find today, that same food everywhere, you know, you can see this in Walmart in a big, you know, and so it’s like, you know, you can get by, but it might be a boring recipe, but you can still make it you know, so there is a need for people to eat, right? But it’s just learning a little bit more usually in their own traditions like Jewish tradition in France, you go back into them, you’ll find stuff polish like that, too. There are a lot of areas you’ll find these common traditions, which have a high vitamin quality, they understand the gelatin matrix, they understand other elements that we’ve kind of tossed out.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s such great information. And, you know, one of the other differences that you just kind of touched upon is the value we place on food specifically with what we invest in our foods. And I know in Europe, it’s gonna cost potentially a little more for the good quality food versus I think the American mentality is that you know, cheap fast foods. And I think in the short term, it’s cheaper in the long term, it’s much more expensive because you’re having a chronic health issue that you know, a little bit of X-ray investment today results in a huge return tomorrow with the quality of the food so it’s interesting that you that’s where I was going one thing that you mentioned with the soy and the isoflavonoid I think it gets a lot of bad rap here because of the GMOs and so forth. But this wasn’t on the topic list, but you brought it up and I wanted to ask you because I do promote this to our patient base as well as good quality soils and what you get with the ISO flavonoids and so forth. Maybe you can just give us a little bit of insight with your background into why it’s so important to not quote-unquote, throw the baby out with the bathwater on what you hear about the ills of soy.   Daniel Thompson: Ah, Well, I don’t know, like, for me, I, I know that for example, when you make a Natto, and you try to create Ketu, out of making Natto, I used to order this from farms in France, they would make it at the farm and send you this, like really smelly natto stuff, you know, and powerful way to get Kaitou. But so they use soybeans. And soy, soy is famously used for a few different elements, like, kind of like the Asian Garam, you know, which is like this, this thing the Romans used to, you know, which helped to build some strength amongst people that didn’t have much food to eat. And this would add an element. Like, it’s kind of like petrol, putrid kind of sardines and scraps and things that all kind of ferment. And so but I will say that, so I have a friendship with soy on certain levels. My problem is how they actually get it to market and the fact that it’s used as a crop rotation byproduct. And, and, and what it can do to the soil, sometimes like it pulls a lot of manganese out, it doesn’t magnesium to It doesn’t replace it. And so over time, there’s kind of like, there were better crops that we were rotating with before. And so we got ourselves into kind of an addiction in a way. And so then it became a product and everything else. So there’s kind of this side of it. But as its own element, fermented soy was used traditionally as a little six to 10%, maybe five to 7% part of the meal in a given society, like especially in Asia as a fermented food, and it was healthy. And it was like kind of a protein multiplier. And so that would you know, you have your broth, you have you you don’t have a lot of money. And so this multiplies the protein. And so this was the smart move, right? And so if we get down things, the right size, and not the genetic version, then we probably get something more respectable. I don’t want to throw any of, you know, God’s foods out the window, I want to figure out, they’re, they’re just like Candida, I want to figure out where they go over, you know, not if they’re in place, they’re fine. But when they go over, then you’re in trouble. And so that’s kind of like it becomes almost a Trojan horse.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and that’s a great comment I tell a lot of our patients, and the people we talked to are there sort of a Goldilocks zone of you don’t want too little, you don’t want too much. You want that just right balance. And I think with fermentation, that really happens a lot, right? Because if people have a really lousy ecosystem in their own GI track, and they get fermentation, maybe you can tell us a few of your insights with that, because fermented fermented foods with the NATOs, and the sois, and everything else is very, very healthy. But at the same time, if you go over, someone already has a pretty bad host, what kind maybe give us a little bit of your insights with that? I know, these are things we hadn’t really discussed. But that’s great to go to different areas.   Daniel Thompson: I mean, I do the patrician side is a stronger side for me. But no, I do feel like fermentation is important because it does bring up certain vitamins to the surface, but also feel like as you heal over time, your body wants fewer and fewer things that are concentrated, including fermentation. And that says the gut heals. Now this could be a year five, I don’t know. But as it heals, yeah, it resists too much of anything that’s, you know, concentrated, whether that be salt, sugar, that just, it just kind of gets sober. I think sobriety is the goal. But I do think that to get there as I went through a lot of sauerkraut, and I did a lot of different things to get there. And then the daily like, I probably I can’t, like I’m telling on myself, because I actually if I really think about it, like I take, like when I go to the farmers market, I see there’s one line that has a line all the time, and that’s the raw milk. And when I go to it was one of the reasons we went to farming farmers markets in the first place, but and so I get the raw milk, and I ferment it and I make like kind of like a farmer’s cheese, you know, like let it sit for a few days and then strain it and make like this farmer’s cheese, I eat it with honey and vanilla, whatever. And so this and I’ve noticed that this is kind of a weekly or BI monthly or whatever kind of thing I’ll do and it has provided all that bacteria, all that fermentation factors in the raw butter that we can’t find like Wilson factor for stiffness, and there’s other things that can’t be found without that raw element. And so I have noticed that that has also been my probiotic it’s been my fermentation like I’ve been saying I don’t eat anything forever and it’s like no you kind of do you know and so but it’s just like it’s not acidic fermented anymore, technically, kind of it’s more like you know, milk and so yes, there is some foods that like need to be close to us. They figured out when they did and they did the scan like they did a test on. Were there any American native Indians that still didn’t have cavities and stuff from the fallout of American foods in the modern world do is any of them left because there used to be great? Some specimens of that. And they found the only tribes that they worked with were I forget the name of the tribe, but it was people who had developed a raising cattle. And they had heard and milk and they had gone, they had shifted to milk. And so their teeth were great once again. And so to get us from that hunter-gatherer to where we are, now, the cow is a key piece to that, you know, and pigs and everything else. But like, so I do think that the fermentation sticks with us. And that in that way, but like, yeah, you’re right, like too much fermentation. Even the Assyrians. I know that’s strange, but I remember reading some of their literature and it was in the like, like, cynical like the word meaning like it was killing the body too much. Fermentation is what they had turned it into. So they tried to get the right balance with it, like a corner, the plate, little bit, kind of, you know, like a condiment. Are condiments fermented? We don’t have fermented condiments anymore, but they used to be fermented even ketchup and, and all that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, too. I like the thought process of the sobriety of GI health, right? And as far as you would think, Nate naturally the other way intuitively, and every time I think that it’s against the traditional way of thinking, it’s probably the right way, where you would think in the beginning, you know, I guess, as your health gets soberer, or your GI tract gets more balanced and diverse and Keystone bacteria in there that you don’t want is to be as potent because it now is this self-perpetuating machine. Whereas you would think of it as the other way around, where when it’s not healthy, you would go less, and when it gets more healthy, you would get more, does that make sense? In terms of anti-intuitive to what you would be thinking?   Daniel Thompson: Yeah, no, you’re exactly right. And I think that it’s one of those systems that allows for a certain stability over time. And that’s the goal is to not be always, you know, the goal is to heal the body, soul, and spirit, it’s not to just be in the gym for 90 hours of your life, and to become kind of a stringent person, it’s to, like, heal all three spectrums, and have those three parts, you know, because otherwise, you get stuck on the physical alone. And that’s what happens when the foods aren’t right. That’s why Hippocrates was so key because when the foods aren’t right, you have to be pumping out all those toxins, it’s detoxifying all those chemical plastics through sweating, and you have to stay in the gym, you know, and so we want to get people to have freedom in general and not to be forced to be so, you know, the gut has to always be given some probiotic, or it always has to be, you know, and it’s like, it’s like getting it to a state of sobriety, where there’s stability. And, I think that foods play a key role in that and also deficiencies as we talked about the magnesium deficiency, you know, this stores on the hydroxy, apatite, but layer of the bone. So building up, that deficiency builds up a whole system in you that is subsequently used, like a Rolex watch, subsequently use that energy to recreate the structure and things like that. So the body becomes not only stable but it’s also got like, like, you know, fourth, it’s got a future power a little bit, you know, like it can take care of itself. It’s got a surplus.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s got a great point too, in terms of its, its, its infinitely intelligent way more so than we could micromanage our synthetic, you know, bringing into the body. And really, you just want to kind of give it keep it on its track, by giving it the great nutrients that are from the earth and have the same frequencies and minerals and everything that makes you healthy and eliminate all the adulterated, processed, genetic, modified, whatever it is toxic exposures, and this let the body do the rest, which is a good sort of dovetail into the heart of tradition, your company and magnesium, which you just started to talk about. And really, that’s how you became on our radar. So maybe we can talk about what is full-spectrum magnesium, and maybe we can kind of go from there.   Daniel Thompson: Well, I think full spectrum to me is just kind of it’s not it’s a self term that we that was you know, I can’t I came up with it just only because that we see cell full spectrum and that usually means we take a bunch of types of things and we put them all together in one and that’s full spectrum. Whereas like, for me, the full spectrum is understanding magnesium itself and understanding how it really works in the body. Like if there’s one word to define magnesium, for me, it’s flexibility.   That’s what it does in the human body. It renders everything flexible. It renders the bones, the teeth, and the nerve. herbs, everything viscous and flexible, and that’s kind of how it works. And so it gives like that, that that, you know, at the cellular level, it’s the same, it also allows for calcium to come in, but not too much, you know, and, and it keeps this kind of control on that to where the rigidity of the cell is controlled there too because calcium will over rigidify. And then we have apoptosis and everything else. And so, the magnesium has this role and kind of balancing out structure to where it can become soft enough and flexible enough to work better, you know, your teeth would just break if they were all calcium, right? So magnesium helps to bring that flexibility there. And so I feel like, when you understand it from that angle, and you understand the history, I really feel like modern medicine should be more programmed into history, because they really did a lot back then, to teach us about what’s happening. Now. I mean, if you get a guy on bipolar, and you give him some lithium, and you know, he could destroy his kidneys, possibly, maybe is his liver, you know, whatever, thyroid, and, you know, the Greeks said, hey, send them to a lithium bad, you know, and like, they would do that they had a different method, they weren’t harming anyone, you know, but they figured out another way to do the same thing without doing any harm. And I feel like it’s a powerful, powerful testament to how we could operate. But so in the magnesium space, when they study history doctors, they’ll probably find that in magnesium of all places, which is where the Greeks set up a lot of this bathing culture. And they did it there. With some of the most famous baths were famous today, even for magnesium in the waters, because of the Dolomite type of, you know, it’s a type of stone that has, you know, half magnesium, half calcium, whatever. So, it’s, it’s a very, like high magnesium concentration in that whole region there. And so they’re able to create these baths, they would use that as mortar, the Dolomite, they would, they would build that into the bath system, all of this stuff, leeches, I mean, even their plumbing system was lychee, it was all clay. So everything leads to magnesium, you know, and it was, there was a lot of like green clays and different types of clays they would use. And so. So, this whole system that was baked is basically a big leaching system of magnesium and minerals. And then they would bathe in it, you know, and they would heat it, which even turns everything up, right? And then they would bathe in it. And, and because there’s so much, you know, attention to bathing, and this that was that culture was not about soap and hygiene that was really about mag deficiency minerals, a little bit of hygiene, too, but there was other stuff going on there. And so we get all those things, we taken those as supplements, now, they were smart to build it into their society where you didn’t have to remember to take it. Now we have to remember to take supplements like magnesium for long periods of time, without even feeling anything in our bones, we just have to stay on it. So they built it in a way where we couldn’t get away from it. And I think that was kind of smart. And so especially the older crowd, you know, a lot of the arthritis that we see is a lot of that’s due to calcification, too. And so we get calcium roaming around making everything worse. And so this is a low mag lifecycle, it doesn’t mean you can stop calcification, but it just means you can soften it and kind of not make it we’re not supposed to age, it’s supposed to go straighten and dovetail right, we’re not supposed to be on this farm or ramp, like limping on our way, the last 20 years or, and so I think that they understood something about that we did to our founding fathers, they did all those waters. And they, you know, Jefferson would write about all this rheumatism and all these things that they were able to overcome to these waters. So there was something in the water, it wasn’t just magnesium, there’s also sulfur, there are other components. But magnesium was a big player. And so trying to help people find a way to overcome that deficiency through the skin, because you have this huge surface area that we should be using because you can bring more in without triggering the laxative of the kidneys. People with IBS, can’t even take the pills, right, a lot of them. And so finding a way to help people to get it in the body through another system, which is intelligent, which copies the ocean, can actually man in the sea. And, you know, we know that you know, this, this, this history kept them from you. I mean, they had a stronger composition. And so even the soils, they didn’t even have the magnesium deficient stores, but they still did the bats. So they still knew that there was a reason to do it. And so we’re just trying to help people find as many ways as possible to not harm themselves, and to maybe help a lot, you know, and so everything I try to recommend to people like from the fog rod down to the man, there’s nothing will ever harm you. It will it’s a risk because you might have to spend some money, but but like it won’t harm you and you can just try it out. You know? And so that’s kind of the way I try to do things. The company was built just to bring that tradition. Did you know that in the medical system in France, they have that as part of their medical system? and that they will send people to different waters around the country, France. And for free, actually, it was actually the coolest part of their kind of bad system, but it was kind of the coolest part. And you can get that those needs covered, they’ll send you to this place for rheumatism, and this one for whatever. And so they have like their own little system set up. It’s a fascinating system. And we’re trying to learn from them and find a modern way to bring that to people. That’s kind of what we’re doing. If you want to talk further, on the way people process magnesium, it is sad that most magnesium is technical grade magnesium, they use it for de-icing planes, it comes over on sheets, and then they I mean, in, you know, on, you know, big boats, and then they turn it into the supplements and everything else that we use. And there is a little bit of quality somewhere sometimes. But when you try to get a certificate of origin, nobody will give you the one they caught proprietary. And so we kind of know what they’re doing. And so it’s just a cheap magnesium that’s been solvent extracted from undiscerning strata, and just chemically made purified by man to be the final thing. And what people don’t realize when they buy their glycinate citrate, is what rolls out of that, what’s the magnesium that’s going to roll out of that? Like the magnesium molecule itself? How was that made? How did they get that and so we just, we can’t even be sure of all the things. I mean, people could tell you raw milk, and pasteurized milk look the same under a microscope, possibly, they look the same if you feel them, but they’re not the same. So we can’t get into that type of quantification right now. But I will tell you that like to go from a natural stone where it’s clear, you send spring water, you bring that back up that brine, you bottle, that brine and glass and you don’t touch anything, you get a better chance of having nature made molecule. So this is made by nature of 250 million years Man’s not really involved here, except for bringing it up. And so we believe that this is a better magnesium and especially because there’s such a good huge source of it the size of which is mind-blowing, we actually have the same price point as others. So it’s like, just do it right. And plastics do contaminate magnesium, and we know that that’s why the olive oil, people from Spain stopped doing plastic, a lot of them because they realized what it did to the olive oil. And so we’re not being blinded out either. And I know that was a big spiel, but thank you for it’s great.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I tracked with you the whole way through that was great. I mean, I think just the benefit of getting it transdermally is a big point, because people can identify that, especially pound for pound, even if it’s not an optimal form that’s utilized by the body. It’s, it’s having to be processed by the liver, and or it’s also causing intolerance, and they already have GI issues that they’re thinking to take it in the first place. And they’ll tell you firsthand that it will loosen the stool and they’re not able to tolerate it. But then on top of that getting it from a man-made sore or sorry a nature-made source, which I think that’s the problem with we what we alluded to earlier with the food and the naturally occurring nutrients and food versus synthetically or individually processed and trying to take out the secret formula. And I guess I guess patenting it or copyrighting it so that you lose all the benefits of it. But you also increase the profits of your company not going down that pathway. But you know, synthetic B’s petroleum-based same problem. But you mentioned as far as which the other thing I like about your company, as you say it even on your website is you’ll scrutinize, you’re up for scrutiny to be able to test the quality and the source of your magnesium and where we like the quality of it. And as far as you mentioned with the Greeks and the Dolomite what’s different about the rock I know I can’t pronounce the name of the rock that you you have for your magnesium, but how what is it? How is it pronounced? It’s called Misha’s Feet. b Okay, right. And go ahead and explain the quality of that magnesium or what’s special about that rock or how to potentiate or get the concentration of the ideal magnesium and the way that your company has been able to deliver that product.   Daniel Thompson: Well, the Aisha feat is actually it’s the only stone out there that is basically a solid magnesium fluoride. Most stones are like the current elite and others from the Dead Sea that’s currently like they’re like under the Dead Sea. And some of these like around that region, you could say they have, you know, a little more potassium, they’ll have other things, and um, we got to kind of get that out of there. And then you make your product or you go to Salt Lake others bro mine, I gotta get that out of there. Mercury as well. Salt Lake, we got to get that out of there too. And then so we have to salt we have to use solvents and treat and get the stuff out. And then we can make magnesium oil and sell it and do all that stuff. So we don’t have any of that this is Misha’s feet. So be sure feet is naturally natural state magnesium chloride, it’s the clearest stone you can find with magnesium meaning clarity, you can see through it. And so because of that clarity, that that that allows for just salt to melt, and then we just pull it up. So because of that discovery, you have like a natural way to do this without having to use any chemicals or anything to get it to happen. And unfortunately, you can’t just go locally, that’s why they’re doing this stuff. Sometimes they’ll just go to Salt Lake and then they just extract all the chemicals and then they make it and everybody’s happy. But you end up getting a you know, kind of a different product in the end. And they always say the solvents are all pulled out perfectly. But we all know that there’s still some in there, and there are little pieces of things that just hang on the edges. And it just changes the way the magnesium works in the body for us. And then also, even if we’re wrong about that, like, it’s still the same price to get the other one. So it’s almost like okay, either way, we’ll just bet on nature if we can, you know, and so that’s kind of what we’re letting people do is just bad on nature. But on the purity, we put all of our layers up on the site, we let people know about the geology, we let people know about this special formation that was where the first land mammals came onto the earth. Because through this Eckstein, like we talked about a lot of these things. And so a lot of people don’t, because once you’re buying industrial-grade stuff to make it cheaper, and people don’t really care about the molecule per se. That’s what they think, then you don’t talk too much about sources anymore. And so, which which is it’s just different, it’s a different thing. And you know, like we get the CBD movement coming, you know, a lot of people, and I always tell me, it was like, Okay, first of all, magnesium is more essential to CBD. But second of all, like magnesium and CBD, they work together, as they work really well and together. But CBD The only problem with it is over time, there’s no structure at it. And so you need the structure, the structure is part of that formula, where you’re trying to help the body detoxify, get things out, heal, deficiencies, be stronger, etc, you need to be able to have structure. So magnesium enhances the nerves over time, they become more flexible over time, and they injure less. So structure is a big part of the formula. So when you’re thinking about these other modalities, always think of structure as well. Alongside and, and if you skip around from I mean like I said, you can go from, from the magnesium, to getting it internally, a lot of people, you know, we’re not in competition with pills. So like pills are fine, that three and eight. And that’s all good. I’m glad they’re out there making all sorts of stuff for different operations and surgical and this and they do all sorts of stuff. But, but when you start taking it externally, it will eliminate both if there’s over, but you ended up getting this filtration system. And this allows for better input and you can abuse it, in a sense, because the sports people that use this high-level sports person, they just dose up like they don’t even count. They just go and they’re training and getting out of the body. One more little feature that connects with your podcasts without adrenal fatigue, is that I’m sure that you guys talk about heavy metals and their effects on the gut because the biome is controlling a lot of the acidity and then that comes back to the kidney. And then here we go. And it all connects. But is that the in the Roman times when they would make salt? So when you make salt the product byproduct of salt is called bittern. And bitterness like a pure magnesium chloride. It’s like a, it’s like sort of the similar thing as the Bucha feet except B sheets made by nature. And this is kind of like processed out or whatever. Or this can be naturally processed out too. So but it’s a little different. And so that, that that bitter they that’s how they would clean their water supply. That’s how they pulled cadmium and beryllium, and Mobium. And all this stuff out of the water supply in those baths and in those times was using the bittern. So what is it? What does that mean? That means that this chloride molecule, which is the Master Molecule in the human body, like when you eat like your almonds, that hydrochloric acid glorifies magnesium, there’s a chloride process always. And so I can’t prove this. And this is one of my like, reaching theories. But like, you know, the first layer of your skin is acidic. The second layer is fat. So as that chloride comes in from the sea, over those 30 minutes, you’re in it, like, it turns that first that chloride into citrate as it comes in, and then it turns it into glycinate. So it basically makes food out of that same molecule as it comes in and touches all those layers. And so we’re buying all this stuff that the body naturally makes most of this dextro gr stuff is the leverage. Here’s the dextro deer that we’ve Found the body. And so we’re trying to like just help people realize how smart our ancestors were, and help them find a way that they can be sure of history natural, and then you know, an alternative that can’t hurt. And we’re just kind of, we’re kind of riding that line right there, without wanting to bump heads. Magnesium is one of the most researched minerals in the world. So we’re okay with that. But just trying to offer a better solution.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, it’s wonderful, when I explain it, Daniel, to our patients, I like the term the magnesium burn rate, where if your demand for energy exceeds your supply for energy, every time you produce ATP and converts into ATP, it’s releasing magnesium in that process, to be able to create that energy. And then you’re burning that all off, and you’re not getting it back. Because we’re so devoid of minerals in our soils, or everything you’ve just talked about, or better yet, I mean, we’re just not eating good quality food, because I always, you know, it’s cheap, cheap food. And I was, you know, I love that saying, where instead of wondering why the food is so expensive, you should be wondering why, you know, it’s so cheap, right? Because if it’s really inexpensive food, what kind of quality food is in there? So awesome, great stuff. So the website is the heart of tradition, and your main product is the is transdermal magnesium, I’m sorry, I didn’t do my homework is there other products that you sell on there as well or that you promote?   Daniel Thompson: Or now we’re kind of like a one-trick pony with different sizes and things coming and some you know, roll-on applicator and other things coming around? And, you know, there are a few products in that in that domain. But like for now, that’s kind of all we’re doing. We do a little bit on, you know, we have some books we didn’t we’re gonna start a full nutrition blog as part of the site coming up soon, too. And, yeah, that’s pretty much it for now. For now, I haven’t seen the need to go into a second product, but I’ve been playing around with a couple of ideas, but those are secret.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, if it’s if you got what if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it, right? I mean, at the end of the day, pick out what you got. So as far as we talked a little bit earlier, and potentially being able to give the listener a discount, we mentioned and I’ll put that in the show notes so that they’ll be able to get that. But the coming to an end here, I always like to ask what would you have wished, you know, knew then that you know that you know now that would have helped with either any stress-related disorders are being exhausted or being burnt out or overwhelmed, or any type of health challenges that you may have had. Now that you have your infinite wisdom now, what would you have told the younger, more naive, Daniel, to sort of accelerate your process?   Daniel Thompson: Well, wow, that’s such a good question. I probably, you know, got on the homeopathy a bit late in the game. And I feel like it was really helpful, especially the higher level homeopathy, which is called like, sensation level, which they do a lot in the UK and Europe and stuff like that. I felt like that was a little game-changer. For me, I had thyroid issues, and that actually helped me to come off the meds that I was on, my body did thicken a little bit, I think to compensate for the lack of warmth, and maybe even thought maybe even hormones. But it was healthy, it was a healthy change. And so I probably would have got closer to that sooner. I also feel like because I did go down a vegetarian path for a certain period, I wasn’t really aware of the fact that like, you know, like, if you take some like buddy from India, and you compare them to like, manga, manga sin, or somebody from Scandinavia, which is my actual genetics, it’s just a whole nother world. You know, and so I kind of was confused in a few worlds there and had to learn the hard way. For me, not for everyone that like animal foods were really the key to health. And the American Indians said that whenever we got sick, like you know, can’t whatever sick that sometimes the animals are the only way out. And so what that means is when we get sick, sometimes people think all right, more plant stuff, more juices, and more. We’ll drink like a lot of juices and plants, but the Indians were like No, do the opposite. Let the animal convert something for you now and let them do the conversion. So you can translate that off to a health bonus for you. And so that’s where but if you don’t get sick, then maybe yeah, you can choose whatever path you need to go down. But so for me learning about animal foods and fats and all that stuff. I learned it a bit too late. And I feel like it took a toll on my system. But now I don’t have any stimulants. I don’t drink coffee. I’m not against coffee. I think it’s great for the mind. but not so good for the heart, but great for the mind. And so, but I don’t do any stimulants, I have a good sleep schedule. And so I’m without, like, I feel like I’m getting to a level of sobriety in the body, finally. But I have learned a little bit on imported foods sometimes and farmers markets, and, you know, I’ve had to kind of like figure out where to get the right stuff and source. But I wish I would have learned some of that a little bit earlier, I think I was sleeping at the wheel. And thinking that my little, my little tuna fish sandwich with french fries, like every day was gonna be, he’s gonna give me the game-changing reality. And it turns out, like, you know, God was saying, you’re gonna need to learn a lot more than that. So anyway.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, thank you for sharing that I think the body is incredibly resilient, right? And it has an amazing way of regenerating its tissues, looking at lungs that have been smoked upon for many, many years. And that person stopped smoking and all of a sudden creates new tissue. And there’s a certain amount of learning your body, I think that’s the lesson really, that you’re talking about, always looking to improve. And I think that also was a really good point where I do a lot of genomic test interpretations. And just you’re not, your body is engineered over the millennia to process the environment in a certain way. And if you bend the rules too much beyond what the genetic program looks like, even though the environment helps to press the computer, keyboards, if you will, the hard wiring is, isn’t as flexible as you think it will be. Number one, number two is a lot of vegetarians and vegans do have challenges in getting access to, especially if they’re not diligent with their diet with the essential amino, or choline or vitamin A and retinol, probably even k two now that you’re talking about that, it’s really hard to do that and be able to give your body the array that it needs. So understanding that the body and what percentages are enough for you to be in that ideal Goldilocks zone, but also be in that philosophical zone. So anyways, I appreciate all your information. What I’ll do is I’ll put a link to your store and give them a discount for that. And I look forward to actually, to be honest, I haven’t tried your magnesium for myself, but I’m like going to be the first one in line to do that. And I’m excited to get going and I always learn a lot of information on this. And this was definitely one that I learned some great insights as well. So thank you so much for sharing your time today. I really appreciate it.   Daniel Thompson: Thank you so much. That was good for me as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Take care. Bye   If you are interested in trying full spectrum heart of tradition, topical magnesium and want to save 20% use discount code DRJOEL20, go here:    The post Why Full Spectrum Magnesium Abilities Outshines All Other Forms? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of about your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And it’s really exciting for me to interview a new friend of mine, Dr. Seth Gilson. Seth was born and raised in South Florida. He graduated with a degree in Biology from the University of Florida. And then he completed his dental school at NOVA Southwestern. He has been an avid sports and health enthusiast, and he’s played soccer in both South Florida and New York, at the collegiate and professional levels. So he has a mission to not only help oral health, but overall health nutrition environment, when he’s consulting, diagnosing, treating, and coaching his patients and clients. So that’s what makes it so interesting to talk to you today, Seth, so thank you so much for being on the call.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Of course. Thank you, Joe.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so in that bio, was there anything that happened or just you already knew you wanted to get into dentistry, kind of tell us how you ended up winding up in the dental field.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, it’s, um, it’s nothing particularly special to be perfectly honest. By I mean, long story short, I was my focus was professional soccer. And after sustaining an injury with that, I shifted, and I was always into health and wellness, I was into nutrition and fitness because that’s where my focus was in my life. But when that shifted, I was also good at math and science. So I’m like, okay, my mom was nice and has been an ICU nurse since before I was born. So I kind of had that, that medical background in the house my whole life growing up. So I transferred to UF and took a course there called Introduction to professional medicine. And it kind of takes you through all the different professions in medicine and things like that, from chiropractics to cardiology, interventional radiology, and obviously, dentistry. And it was something I never really thought about, but I was intrigued by it. So I started getting involved in more research and shadowing different doctors at hospitals and private practice. And it came to me that one of the cornerstones of health that we just don’t realize is our mouse, it’s, it’s how it’s the most interactive other than our skin, it’s the most interactive kind of organ that we have with it with the outside world. And what’s going on with their mouth impacts what’s going on with their body. And one of the ways I refer to the mouth is it’s a doorway and a window. And it’s a doorway, meaning things 99.9% of the time only go in through the mouth. But it’s a window because you can also see the inside from the outside. So a lot of times you can tell what’s going on with a mouth bait, I mean, with the body based on what’s going on in the mouth.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. So you knew once you did that kind of broke up when you mentioned the different course that you took, but I guess with all the different disciplines, it was a, an immediate resonance of this is what I want to do. And that I, I see that there’s this whole oral biome, like what was it that was that right from the get-go? Is that sort of evolved over doing it?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, that wasn’t right from the get-go. Like, my initial spark of interest is like, oh, okay, I can use the knowledge and the things that interest me, but in my mind, like math and science and stuff like that, but there’s also an artistic side of dentistry, and then it’s more interactive with people and it’s very hands-on, and I was goalkeeper in soccer, I was always using my hands. I like doing, I don’t just like seeing or researching. I appreciate researching and reading and things like that. But the activity of doing and being an active participant in treatments and ongoing situations with patients was intriguing to me. And as I said, it allowed me to explore my creative side in the sense because of that artistic aspect of dentistry as well. That was the initial kind of pull toward it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, and it’s interesting because I look back at my journey, and I know when I injured my back, and I didn’t want to go for surgery, and someone helped me that was a chiropractor. That’s what I wanted to do, right? Because it sort of had that unique experience. So it wasn’t like you had a specific experience with the mentor doctor that you decided to do it was just more of the right, the right feel at the right time. It combined your background with your hands and your skill set to be able to get but you know, I’m just curious, like, no one ever really feels like they want to be in someone’s mouth all day, right? I mean, what did that kind of resonate with you or like, did you kind of think about that or not really, you know?   Dr. Seth Gilson: I don’t recall Oh, having any, any, I didn’t even think about that part at the beginning. And so like I said, once I took that course, I was also exploring different options. As I said, my mom’s an ICU nurse. So I had kind of access to go in and shadow and be part of research and things at the hospital, I could see what the different aspects of medicine are like. And it just, it appealed to me to be able to interact with people more so like it was a little bit like you said it was the right thing at the right time. More so then something significant in my life happened. Now, later on, which I can talk about now, if you want that, that is something that I did have a, there was an impactful period of time in my life in my when I was already practicing, that kind of shifted me into the space where I’m at now.   Dr. Joel Rosen So gotcha, we’ll get there in a second. So I was just going to follow it up. Because I, again, felt like you there was an interview that you did with me, and that was, this is not payback. It was I just felt like it was a great interview. And there were certain questions that I had to think about. My question to you is going to be a bit, just one of those. Just no filtered questions, if you will. So was there a certain aspect of it because I guess when I got into chiropractic, it was the same thing. Like I see a lot of similarities. I was a soccer player, my mom was a nurse. And so there are a lot of similarities there. And when someone when I got my back injured, it’s like, okay, this is what I want to do. I finally knew what it was. And it was gonna be a professional job. I didn’t know how much insurance would reimburse and what the public thinks about us. And, you know, there’s a lot of things you don’t see foresight with. But with dentistry, I don’t think there’s any confusion about whether it’s a really good professional income to get into dentistry, let alone I like that I’m working with people and I’m doing so was did that, I guess, to question that, that factor into getting into it for you, and what percentage would you say of dentists that get into dentistry are are doing it? Because mainly because it’s a very good profession to get into financially. What would you say about that?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, I can honestly say, when I was debating what in college, when I, when I transferred after soccer, I didn’t know what I wanted to do. And just having a good profession and making a good income, for whatever reason, wasn’t at the top of my mind. And as I said, I just had specific interests, and I knew what I would be good at, and that I was like, Okay, what, what would I like to do for the rest of my life and science and math, it’s just always been something that intrigued me. So I knew it was going to be something in the medical field. Now, I’ve learned a lot since and I’ve broadened my horizons since then. And I know there’s a lot more than math and science going on in the world. But I just knew it was gonna be something in medicine. And as I said, it was just the right moment at the right time, like dentistry had never even occurred to me other than going to the dentist for cleanings and stuff like that never even crossed my mind. Nobody in my family is a dentist, I don’t even think I knew that. That is like the actual income that a dentist would make at that point. Now, as far as it’s really hard for me to speak for other people. I can say from my experience when I was in dental school, I would say a minority of people were concerned with how much they were going to make once they finish school to put an actual percentage on it. It’s really hard. I don’t know now that I’ve been practicing for over 12 years. I think the perspective definitely changes and I don’t necessarily believe that that’s a reflection on the individuals. Yes, we all need to make a living and yes we live in the United States which is a capitalistic economy, I mean, to have a comfortable life you have to make a good living and financially speaking there are a lot of other aspects to living a good life, which we may touch on but to stay focus on on your question. I think the way the medical industry itself is just set up with corporations and big pharma and these types of I don’t know, these almost seem like black holes that we’ve kind of created for ourselves, you get into these cycles, where things are so insurance driven as you had mentioned, that volume becomes a necessity. Just to stay in business in a lot of situations. Now, there are a few models in which it’s taken me over 12 years to come to a bit of an understanding and reach a point where we don’t have an insurance-driven practice. And some people, some practices are just completely dismissive of insurance, like we don’t do anything with it. Now, we’re not in network with insurance where I practice, but, depending on the type of insurance that patients have, we will accept their insurance, and then their insurance reimburses the patient. So whatever insurance you have, whatever deal you’ve made with the insurance, they’re gonna give that money back to you. We have nothing to do with it, we’ll just send it and fill it out for you as a courtesy because that can be a hassle for people that don’t do these things. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I appreciate you answering the question. And being a good sport about it. It’s more of my thought. And it’s very similar in the chiropractic profession to right, you could be insured and out of insurance and so forth. I was just curious are people that are getting into the profession, are they doing this because they just have this passion for the oral microbiome and the teeth and structural fixing it? Is there a little bit of both, they just kind of weren’t sure. And it sounded like a good idea. I just I was just kind of curious in a lot of different ways. So let’s Okay, go ahead.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, I was just gonna say that. I mean, it’s really hard for me to say now, the few people that I that are trying to get into a dental school that I know, personally, really are passionate about health and dentistry in particular, those are generally foreign-trained dentists that have moved here that want to continue practicing. But I would say the majority of people do care and enjoy what they’re doing. And right. Again, it’s just the cycle that we find ourselves in, in this medical system that kind of breaks people down. And like that medical burnout that a lot of people experience, it’s because we’re not taught how to handle ourselves, let alone healthily present ourselves and practice six, five to six days a week, and see X amount of patients a day, and do our best and be mindful about it. We’re just not trained or educated in that in that aspect. Right. Right. Good.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you. So as far as switching it up, your holistic dentists slash biological dentists, so maybe give us the genesis of that, was that something that you wanted to get into from the get-go? Or you’ve kind of evolved into that? And maybe for the listener, that doesn’t know what exactly that means? Or what’s different between a regular dentist that’s not holistic or biological? Let’s maybe talk about those two things.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Okay. So it was 100% an evolutionary process. I would say 90, at least 95% of dentists, if you go and you speak to them, it’s probably gotten, it’s gotten better. But 95% of dentists have never even heard of biological dentistry. People have heard of holistic medicine. So that’s, that’s why that term holistic, is used. It’s just so people, just hearing that term, know what you’re talking about in it, or at least have an idea. Now, a lot of times there’s there’s a negative stigma attached to that, which is what we’ll talk about now. So what biological dentistry is, it’s completely science-based it there’s a lot of research that goes on all around the world, surrounding biological dentistry. And what that essentially is, it’s similarly to functional medicine, it’s looking for the root cause of what’s causing the problems in the body or in, in this case, the mouth, and how oral health is connected to systemic health, and how systemic health is connected to oral health and how they interact with each other through different avenues like the oral microbiome, which is in the gut microbiome, which is a huge topic of research these days.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So with that being said, not 90% or plus, not knowing it’s the concept that just seems logical with what you explained to me is not being taught in the traditional approaches, or the majority, like 90% of the curriculums, they they don’t have very much training on that. And it’s just sort of reductionistic let’s just structurally address the mouth. And that’s it. That’s all.   Dr. Seth Gilson: A lot of it is very reductionistic. And they’re very, they do recognize correlations with certain diseases to oral health, like diabetes and cardiovascular disease, because they’re, I mean, they’re just pro-inflammatory or hyper-inflammatory disorders. But one of the big things that we do in biological dentistry is focused on methodology and mature reels. And what we use and what we put are essentially like fillings are implantation into your tooth or a dental implant. So to speak, what we put in your body needs to be what’s called biomimetic or biocompatible, meaning your body needs to accept whatever it is that we’re putting in, and the least amount of toxic materials that we can use, the better. And those are the types of things that we look at. I mean, even we go as far as providing patients with blood tests, so they can go get blood drawn, and see if they are reactive to any of the materials used in dentistry, whether it’s a filling material, whether it’s a polish that they use in the hygiene room, whether it’s an oral rinse that use two different kinds of toothpaste, or pretty much anything you can imagine.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s fascinating stuff. So do you find that because you stress the fact that the biological dentist is scientific-based, which, to me seems redundant, I would assume it would be right? But I would imagine the reason you’re saying that is because maybe some of the opposition from those that are sort of the rigid reductionistic traditionally trained, don’t feel that there’s a validation to it, or they justify that it’s not science, or what was the need to sort of? Well, by that, yeah.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Because I mean, for example, with like fluoride and mercury amalgam fillings, they’re the research that’s been done around these things. Who’s, who’s done the research, and where’s the research originated from? And a lot of times, we don’t know, these things, and the way the research is done. I mean, there’s an incentive to do things in a very particular way. Whereas biological medicine or holistic medicine, we, it’s it, there’s no incentive, there’s that we’re not looking for a particular outcome. We’re testing and observing results, creating hypotheses, testing, and seeing if the results are the same again. And what we see time and time and time, again, is that these things are neurotoxic, for example, Florida and mercury in the body. And when you have bigger governing bodies for a bit, especially in this particular case, the dental, dental, administrative bodies just don’t seem to recognize that these things are a problem. And you have to I mean, once you start looking deeper into where the research originates from, or where the funding from, this comes from, to this university, which did the research which got published in this article, I mean, so yes, modern dentistry that you that we would see in the in a dental school is research-based, but it’s where who’s doing the research is your big question.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? And you’re tipping over sacred cows, right? I mean, you’re these are things that have been long with standard and, I guess, clinically proven with Biased or Unbiased information. And it’s like that with every research, by the way, not just that, but there are some, it’s interesting, I can’t remember what the book was. But the story I read on how fluoride got approved, was an I don’t want to butcher the entire story. But from what I remember, it was sort of a waste product of heavy industrial production, and being able to not pollute the waters or be able to monetize it unbiasedly create results that would show there’s a need for it, it’s just quite amazing. So does there sort of just, it’s not the angle I want it to take, but is there a certain doctor, like I know when some doctors call themselves functional medicine doctors, but they’re not functional medicine doctors, they do things very traditionally, they don’t look at functional ranges. They’re prescribing medications, and they’re certainly not functional. So do you have that same phenomenon of doctors that want to sort of capture, the market that they would otherwise not be able to get by saying that they are holistic or biological as well?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, two things. So to rewind a little bit with the fluoride. Another really interesting fact about that is that I mean, we’re in the age of double-blind, placebo-controlled studies and all these things. There was no intensive research done on fluoride before it was implemented in the water supply. And if you look at, I mean, I’ve posted about these things on Instagram, and you can see the actual charts of different countries around the world and how they’ve reduced the amount of fluoride in the water as time has gone on. And it’s, well why because now that they’ve started doing research, they see that there are problems with it, and it bioaccumulates in the body. And that fluoride is just everywhere. It’s in the sun. Oil. So it’s in our food. It’s in water. It’s in 95% of dental products that eat not just toothpaste, but everything you get actually at the office like, even though a lot of times when the hygienist cleans your teeth and they polish your teeth afterward, but at times that has fluoride in it. And as I said before, it’s a neurotoxin. So now, going back to what you were saying, I have heard from other patients that have come to see me that other practitioners say their biological dentists, or functional dentists, and they’re not doing things the way we do them, which is, for example, using what’s called the Smart technique. That’s the safe mercury amalgam removal technique that was created by the IAEA OMT, which is the International Academy of oral medicine, toxicology. So they’ve come up with basically a baseline standard of how biological dentistry should be practiced. And then there are layers to that, of course, and again, that’s the completely research-based organization. That’s one of the organizations so if anybody’s curious, you can just go to iaomt.org. And you can find it and it’s all on there for free, you don’t have to pay for it. You can see all of this about amalgam fillings, you can see things about fluoride, you can see things about root canals, different toxicity, things that are used in general practice. So yes, people are practicing that say they’re biological or functional and aren’t doing things to standard, biological standard, based on what I’ve heard from patients.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. So as far as the I M O, T goes, is that if I’m a doctor, if I’m a doctor, like yourself, and I have the mindset to be biological, and I joined that organization, is it a matter of a membership fee? Or do I take certifications to hold my status? What entailed being a member of that association?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Oh, they, they just, they because this is no, they have, I haven’t heard anybody in from that organization say this directly to me. But to me, biological dentistry is just dentistry. That’s just how dentistry should be practiced. So they agree. Yeah. All of the information in the videos, and educational videos for dentists on how to do things, it’s free, you can just go on the website and see how it’s done. Now to be to get a certificate from them just like other professional organizations, because that’s the only way they make money is through donations, dentists that join them and pay their membership fees annually, right? So yes, you pay membership annually. And I mean, we have meetings two or three times a year, there are different groups and things that you can be a part of, there’s mentorship, opportunities within the organization. There’s also you can become a fellow of the organization and kind of work your way up. As I said, there are different layers to how proficient you want to become, and well known as a biological dentist.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you’re not an impostor, just like hanging out at the I am or if you’re not of that mindset, and you have that sort of that, that, I guess the philosophy of approaching holistic health care that way. So I guess just to get off the subject with one more, one more just inquiry, Seth, would you say that, as the profession ages and turns over and have newer younger, maybe more, I would think, more open-minded, or at least not as dogmatic about the research and the studies and where it came from? That there’s a turning over, like they say, like, I don’t remember the exact saying, but as theories change as people die, right, because you don’t have the staunch, dogmatic people defending something that’s not accurate. They die and now you have the truth prevails. Right. So are you seeing a turnover in the profession in that case, or not? Really.   Dr. Seth Gilson: I would say it’s slow. And that’s because the big corporations, especially like the big dental corporations that are now taking over, right, instead of private practices, you have a lot of these bigger organizations that are creating, like 10 offices in South Florida, of whatever name of the offices, and a lot of times they offer because these are big corporations they can offer recent graduates, great deals coming out of school. I mean, that’s one thing that a lot of people don’t understand like you were talking about before that, yes, you can. You can make a very good living as pretty much any kind of doctor but as a dentist, but you come out of school with a lot of loans, too. So when someone’s willing to pay you and our salary and you get these bonuses and things like that. It is very intriguing to some of the just recently graduated has hundreds of 1000s of dollars in loans to step into that kind of realm of things. And then that’s just basically another corporate rabbit. I mean, right Mr. Wheel, so to speak.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. They’re not doing safe mercury amalgam removals, they’re not doing the sort of different approaches in terms of the methodology and the materials being used and the fluorides. And the awareness of the of all of that correct. They’re not. They’re not? Yeah, I mean, I could see the intrigue, you know, especially the same thing for me when I graduated and moved to Florida and had to wait to take my license, the only places that would hire you are the big pie Mills, right? And they’re not really what I wanted to go to school for. And I lasted two weeks and like, Okay, this is it, I’m not going to stay here anymore. So it’s unfortunate that happens. But anyway, so switching things up here. So I guess I sort of have a left-field question. What do you hate the most about your profession?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, I bet that’s easy to answer that in the insurance issues, the insurance companies, and how insurance straight I know, in my practice, I mean, now, I don’t I don’t have that. But we have it a little bit, because as I said, we still have, and we still will submit things for patients. But the downgrading or the refusal, to cover something for a patient when the patient was told, or it’s in their plan that this will be covered, or they cover it differently. There are endless excuses or reasons as to why an insurance company will deny a claim. I’m sure this happens with yours, your feeling.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I remember when I remember in a past life, yeah, yeah, you didn’t rub your stomach and tap your head and jump on your foot and have a half-moon out and the winds blowing north to west, you’re not gonna get approved of certain, you know, procedures.   Dr. Seth Gilson: And it’s just everything’s insurance driven, rather than health driven for the unique individual. And that’s why that’s one of the big reasons that I’ve shifted to where I’m at because everybody’s unique, and all of our health needs are unique. Everybody’s not the like, you’re talking about for how you stare at everybody’s, you look and everybody’s different people’s mouths every day. How is that intriguing, everybody’s so unique and different. And, that it needs to we need to be treated that way. In all of medicine. Yeah, for sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as that, it’s a good segue, then in terms of you have your social media, and you’re, you’re out there, and you have something called Art of mindful medicine. So I’m curious to know the genesis of that. But in your intro, you talk about you doing all these interviews, and this research or just going into these different areas, because you can’t specialize in everything. And you would want to be able to get as much information as you can. So two-part question, what does it mean, the art of mindful medicine? And what else would you be specializing in are what is what areas are you wanting to go into with that being the case?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Well, so the art of mindful medicine? I mean, where do I start? Okay, so I’m also a yoga practitioner and a yoga teacher. And mindfulness has become a huge part of my life, over the past six or so years. And when the pandemic started, I had been looking to, how can I do something because before that, let’s see, in 2018, I almost was getting burnt out, I was tired of just sort of treating the same thing over and over again, and not not not being able to help people. So healing rather than treating. And it got to the point where I was burnt out and couldn’t stand how practices run and how the insurance everything was so insurance driven. And I just wasn’t happy with how things were going. So I took about a seven, seven-month hiatus and was left medicine completely. And then I sort of decided through my self-discovery and self-reflection that I would be a better, more beneficial, and greater change, if of any change from within medicine rather than from the outside. So through that, I started practicing and viewing the world differently. And that’s when I started looking into and found biological dentistry. I had to seek it out myself. Like nobody told me about it. I was just doing my research on these things. And then the art of mindful medicine came about at the beginning of the pandemic, as I said before because, at that point, we couldn’t even work we weren’t allowed to see patients unless it was on an emergency basis. So I said, this is the opportunity for me to continue to go within and see what can I do to give back beyond what I do in my practice. So I came up with the name of the art of mindful medicine. And I wanted to interview other practitioners that viewed the world in a similar way that you and I view the world through a health care system, rather than a sick care system. And through holistic medicine, natural medicine, and functional medicine come together and find the root cause of what’s going on with the unique individual. And I want to learn from people like yourself and share the things that I’ve learned and have conversations. So we can share this with people that don’t have the opportunity to look up what Chinese medicine is, what biological dentistry is what functional medicine is. So you can come and see on a channel, you can learn from a vegan cardiologist, two different biological dentists to functional medicine doctors, like yourself about how lifestyle impacts everything that we do in life. And it’s not just your genetics, or it’s not just luck of the draw that you’re gonna whether you’re gonna be healthy or sick. So that mindful approach that awareness of myself and the opportunity that I have to share what I’ve learned with other people, and to in this present moment, that’s where the art of mindful medicine kind of stems from because like I said, I just did, I’ve done the research, and I’ve done rounds, and I’ve shadowed in hospitals and different doctors offices, I see how medicine operates. And mindfulness, the number one place mindfulness should be practiced, is in medicine. And in what I’ve seen, and what other people have shared with me, it is the opposite of that, where mindfulness is lacking in medicine, in the western world anyways. So that’s kind of where that whole channel on YouTube stems from? That’s great. Thank you for sharing.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as where does that fit in now with your practice, in terms of how you approach your patients and how it’s being received? And what additional role do you play? What what’s where, where are you now and where are you headed?   Dr. Seth Gilson: So it allows me to, again, have had a greater scope a bit a better view of the person as a whole, rather than just above their neck. Now, it’s not that I treat other things, but I can tell people how I’ve chosen to live life. And I can tell people how these things have had an impact on my life and what I’ve learned through other practitioners like yourself and refer patients to other practitioners like yourself when they have this kind of problem. And then we work together, and we create, like a health team, so to speak, because we have to address it, and then when people are sick, you have to start from the ground up. And that’s we have to cover all of our bases, and how that’s worked for me. So it’s allowed me to learn a lot about different different areas of medicine and health that I just have, we there are only so many hours in the day. And being able to share that with patients say, Hey, I spoke to this person, we did an interview, you can watch this video, you can go watch their videos, here, you can find all this information, go explore, educate yourself to some degree, and learn about where these problems in yourself are coming from. And then we can have higher level discussions and start implementing new things in your life to be healthy. And where that’s leading me. I don’t have I just know it’s a direction, it’s not necessarily a destination. And it’s one which I constantly seek to become the greatest version of myself, learning as much as I can and constantly being a student. And not just learning from other practitioners like you, but learning from people learning from the patients, because people that’s one of the biggest things that I’ve learned to do is to just listen. And that’s one of the biggest differences and the way I practice now from the way I practice before is patients and spending time with people. And sometimes, it can get a little carried away, it might spend a little too much time talking, talking to people. But creating those kinds of relationships and creating a level of trust and respect for each other makes a huge difference. I mean, when when I authentically want to help you and you feel that it makes a difference in how you want to approach the whole situation yourself. And that’s what The Art of mindful medicine is that’s, that’s what I’ve tried to create for myself. And that’s one of my outlets in sharing it. So it’s a direction. And I just continue to want to grow that aspect of my life and my practice and share it with as many people as I can.   Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure, I know, thank you for sharing, I think it’s having the most impact right on the people that sit in your chair, beyond just opening their mouth. And it’s a win-win, the more that you can listen to them and hear them as a person and what their challenges are, who they are, it enriches you as well. So it’s an equal exchange of energy. As far as I would imagine, with having a biological practice base, these people are going to be more open to this versus if you were in the insurance-based model, they might necessarily not want to hear it, and you’re going to be going upstream. So just a quick pivot as far as what you love most about what you do, because we said, hey, what about love now?   Dr. Seth Gilson: What I love most, the first thing that comes to mind is to get getting to know people, I think we’re so worth we’re such amazing beings. And we’ve learned and can share so much with each other. And I constantly have the opportunity to communicate and meet new people daily. And like I said that I’m a constant student, as I said, and I get I love the opportunity to learn from others every single day.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Do you find at all that the external rewards, whether it’s a different smile? A more? I guess even physical changes because of whatever toxic elements or chemicals, better health from that standpoint, maybe even less pain? Because they’re not in a crisis like that. Do you ever see the product of your work immediately? And does that? What does that like? What are some of the rewards you get from that?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Absolutely. I mean, for example, one of the most common bad habits that people have, that’s probably one of the most underdiagnosed issues in dentistry is what’s called sleep-disordered breathing, which is on the same spectrum as sleep apnea. And one of the symptoms of that is grinding our teeth. And this has been something that I’ve dealt with too. So it’s been, it’s very close to home for me to be able to talk to people about it. And people that are grinding clench their teeth for whatever reason that it’s going on. Have, they suffered severely, I mean, jaw pain, neck pain, back pain, you probably have seen a lot of patients with this headaches, migraines, just they don’t get, they can’t they don’t get good sleep, which is instrumental for our health asleep. So being able to work with people and get them to breathe better, and create devices or processes, which help them prevent them from grinding their teeth. And the inst, almost instant relief of pain, in some cases is amazing. I mean, the people the color comes back in their faces.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s great. So one of the that’s a good segue into just the role not so much yet into the oral microbiome because I didn’t want to get into that. But more in terms of minerals and food quality, and the arches and the density of the bones and cavities and so forth. I guess. Have you been doing it for 12 years? Did you mention that are a little over 12 years? Have you seen are you seeing now a change or more of an epidemic of bone density? Just the arches and a lot of consequences of societal changes environmentally accelerated in the last 12 years? Is that a big part of why we’re seeing some of these challenges more and more?   Dr. Seth Gilson: I think it’s a combination of things. So as my awareness has broadened, and become greater, I’ve started to look and notice things more. Now, and you look at studies and if we read and we can see the tendencies over the last 50 years, and how airway collapse and jaws not fully forming and or people narrowing of the faces and things like that is We’ve been a tendency like there’s nobody can deny it. It’s just the question, the debate is around why. And, yes, nutrition is a huge part of things. So mineral density and what you know, our body is made of what we eat. And if we don’t eat nutrient high quality, nutrient-dense foods, we don’t get high-quality, nutrient-dense results. So, yes, jaw formation and arch with and proper, proper dentition spacing and things like that. It is impacted by nutrition. And when I say nutrition, it’s what we eat, but, but also how we eat chewing our food is one of we are chronic chewers in the United States. And what I have to coach people to do kind of is, is to have at least 30 chews per bite of food. And one of the problems is processed foods, you don’t have to chew them, because it’s already processed for you. It’s pre-digested food, essentially. So all the starch, heavy starch foods and things like that, that aren’t whole plant-based foods, you don’t have to chew very much. So you can choose, you can put it in your mouth, bite three, four or five times and swallow down and no problem. We need to be eating real foods, because not only is that a natural cleansing process for our teeth, but it stimulates the jaw structure and the jaw bone to form properly. So getting kids to do this from a very early age is essential.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great, great answer. So as far as some of the challenges or some of the things that you remediate that you look at that are some of the topics you’ve talked about on your channel, and you’ll share that with our listeners. And we’ll put it in our show notes before we’re done. Three topics I guess we would talk well about I don’t know if you’ve probably talked about the third one, I didn’t have a chance to do as much Intel as I wanted. But you’re talking about root canals. Right. So we’ll go there. We’re talking about mercury amalgams. And then I want to get into a few cavitations, and so forth. So maybe, can you talk tell us about root canals? In terms of taking them out? Leave them? I know, you mentioned that that’s 100% decision based on the patient and the doctor, but as the doctor says, what, what what what do you like, what do we need to consider and why is it harmful? And what yeah, just give us the ABCs, one, two threes on that.   Dr. Seth Gilson: So why it’s potentially harmful is because the anatomy of teeth is very complex, especially when you get into the root structure. So Root Canal, which may you people may or may not know is that you basically take out the main nerve of the tooth, and then you have to fill that with a biocompatible material to leave what’s essentially a dead tooth in the jaw. Now, the problem is, there’s a lot of like I said, the anatomy is very complex. So there are a lot of different canals in the teeth that we can’t properly clean an instrument. With the technology that we have. Now. They’re, they’re using different Sonic technologies and lasers and things like that to try and become able to sterilize teeth completely. But at this point, we can’t, we’re not able to guarantee the sterilized teeth 100%. And then that so some form of tissue or bacteria is left behind in the tooth to fester. And there’s no more blood supply to the tooth because that’s been cut off when the root canal is done. So the immune system can’t go and fight that area of the body so infection, festers with anaerobic bacteria generally. And they create endotoxins, a lot of times, that create a dental abscess or an infection in the jaw. And how that is going to affect me versus you versus somebody else is very unique to the individual. Some people don’t even know it, I mean, some people are also much more in tune with their health, and we have a different toxic burden, so to speak. So I might have my jar of toxic burden might be a gallon, whereas yours might be a quart. So you wouldn’t be able to handle as many issues and inflammation going on in the body as mine might be able to. So how that’s going to result in I mean, these types of infections has been having been linked to certain types of cancers Alzheimer’s disease to thyroid disorders. I mean, there’s just a plethora of different things that have been linked to root canals and what can happen from these types of infections that are left when not done properly. Now, is that every single root canal No, some, I mean, how do we check for these things? Ideally, now it’s in my view, the standard of care should be using a CT scan 3d imaging to be able to see what’s going on in the person’s jaw. And generally, if there are no signs, no symptoms, no nothing going on. Most of the time, I’d say we can leave it alone in those types of circumstances because we also have to live with it, we have to live in the real world too. Not everybody can just, you know, come in and start, some people have four or five root canals. Some people can’t either or either don’t want to, for whatever reason, or can’t afford to just have all these teeth taken out just because they.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Be an implant I’m sorry, interrupt. So if you have a root canal that you’re revising, you’re just replacing the entire like, there are so many questions I have. So what are you doing to revise the root canal?   Dr. Seth Gilson: So if there’s an infection with a root canal, what you do essentially at that point is you can choose to have the root canal redid, which I would just never recommend because the success rate is substantially lower than what just doing it in the original that for the first time. And the alternative is taking the tooth out. To clean out the entire infection, we use ozone at the office as an anti-microbial as well. And then generally, in bone grafting the area, we use something called PRP, which is the patient’s blood that we spin in a centrifuge, and it concentrates the patient’s healing cells in the body into a little membrane. And we put that over the extraction site and you let that heal. Then later on, you can choose to leave it, which I don’t generally recommend, you can also have a dental implant placed, or you can have something removable place. But the ideal situation is to have a dental implant because that’s the closest thing you can get to natural teeth.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Thank you. So just to back up, why would someone need the root canal in the first place? What went wrong?   Dr. Seth Gilson: So the nerve became damaged irreversibly in some way or another? Whether it’s through a cavity through trauma, fractures, or something like that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So it’s typically a cavity, right? If there’s is that the majority of the reason someone’s going to need.   Dr. Seth Gilson: A root canal? I would say yes because a lot of times the tooth fractures because there was a cavity that wasn’t treated. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And that could be secondary, not just eating sugary foods, but because of minerals and density and fluoride. And so as far as when you said cleaning the instrument, you’re saying the things that you go in there to do the root canal? Is that what you’re saying? That you’re not able to disinfect the instrument that you’re using? Or you’re not eight when you say instrument you’re not able to? When do when you remove the root?   Dr. Seth Gilson: When I mean instrument, I mean, we use the instruments, but I was talking about instrumenting in the tooth, so we’re not able to completely sterilize the internal environment of these root canals. 100%, right. Are there?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Now you also mentioned biocompatible. What biocompatible materials? Yeah, I mean, what’s the difference between just a regular not bio biological dentist and a traditional dentist with the materials that they’re using?   Dr. Seth Gilson: So a lot of the fit just for example, well, fluoride, and mercury amalgams. I mean, some people still place metal fillings and mercury amalgam fillings in people’s teeth, which is astonishing to me, but they still do it. And Mercury is a neurotoxin. Fluoride is a neurotoxin, and fluoride is in definitely most composite, resin-filling materials. It is something that gets released over time. Well, so the material is placed, it’s cured, it’s put it’s hard and it’s in the tooth. And over time, they figured out ways to have fluoride slowly leach from that material to help stabilize to stabilize the tooth from what they say. Now, again, fluoride is a neurotoxin. If you ask these reps in these companies, how well do you know how much fluoride is released from these and for how long? Do they have no idea? And if and the ones that do require you to sign a nondisclosure agreement to tell you the information?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Interesting. So okay, so as far as are you? How are you when you do is it that 3d Columbian X-rays that you’re talking about are the gold standard? And then are you seeing sort of silhouettes, pockets of dark spots that wouldn’t suggest infections? How are you determining the gold standard of Yup, it’s infected, we need to do something about it or No, it’s not or your toxic load is not that bad as mine what else goes into deciding that like when you do the like, when you do the X-ray, how do you determine?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, what we do is, we always have a radiologist, a trained radiologists read these reports are creating reports. So they create reports and we oh, we review the pictures as well. And a lot of time Once you just you can see the infection, either an infection or a spacing between the tooth in the bone, meaning there’s some sort of inflammation there. And sometimes there’s not. And then again, it’s just something to watch. And if there are no signs of anything going on, then it’s something that we just monitor every three to five years. Because, look, we’re three-dimensional objects. If we just take a regular x-ray, that’s a two-dimensional picture of what’s going on in the CT scan seat, we can see things in 3d. And you can create slices, where you can see exactly what’s going on in different layers, both the width and height of the tooth. So you can see not only if there’s an infection, but where it is and how big and where it’s extended to if it’s affecting the sinus if it’s close to a nerve, things like that. And that’s what I was also talking about before when we create a health team. So yes, some people might have an abscess, they could have had an abscess there for years and not known it. But how is that affecting your overall health? That’s what we were talking about before with the toxic burden. That’s where the health team comes into play where we would have someone see a functional medicine like a functional medicine doctor like yourself, and then you run bloodwork. And you can see what else is going on in the body. What else is causing inflammation? Or are there any other diseases or disorders or imbalances that the patient might have? Most people a lot of times aren’t even aware that they have imbalances going on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right? Yeah, some of my toughest patients where we’ve done everything like that, okay, there’s gotta be something I always look at, we gotta go look at your mouth now, right? Because that’s a major problem. How much? How often when we talk about cavitations? I would imagine that’s very similar to cavitation, only defined as when you pull the extract of the wisdom teeth, and there are pockets of fluid. Or could that even be cavitation? Where there has been a root canal? And there are signs on a 3d x-ray, that that’s the problem. Is that what cavitation is?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, it’s basically what happens is when any tooth, it doesn’t have to be a wisdom tooth, but a tooth is removed, and essentially, dead tissue remains and builds up and becomes almost like a fluid and gel-filled pocket in the bone. And that the body kind of Ward’s off and just kind of tries to keep in in this in that area of the jaw. But yeah, it doesn’t have to be from necessarily a wisdom tooth.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Can it be from a root canal or not? A root canal tooth, yeah. root root canal tooth can have a pocket of fluid that would be defined as cavitation.   Dr. Seth Gilson: So cavitation is like once a tooth is already missing, there’s this radio radiopacity area in the jaw. So basically, it looks like there’s an infection where there are no other teeth around it or anything like that. I see I see.   Dr. Joel Rosen: But it would be very similar in terms of physiology, that where the root canal was done, that there wasn’t sterilization, and there was a lot of festering buildup of anaerobic microbes that it creates the same issues that cavitation would, or they looked at similarly are not really.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Not, they’re not looked at. Similarly. It’s, it’s different because a lot of times when you leave necrotic tissue in, in the jawbone, it’s not that’s why when we remove teeth or do any kind of surgeries, the entire area needs to be properly cleaned, not just the soft tissue, but also the bone around it that was warding off that infection is generally dead too. So when you leave that behind, that’s where this kind of area of cavitation can be conformed, because there’s no fresh and healthy blood supply to the area. So the immune cells can’t help heal that part of the body. So it’s similar to root canals, but it’s a little bit different.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. I know I appreciate what I get now after talking to you, and I appreciate it. Having dexterity and being good with your hands and having a good skill set would matter as a dentist, right? Because you’re doing these precision-like maneuvers, I guess I mean, just like any profession, there are great, great stars, and there are not so great stars, right? I would imagine that that happens all the time.   Dr. Seth Gilson: I would imagine so. So I mean, obviously some people have better manual or hand-eye coordination and better dexterity than others.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So as far as just we won’t go too long, but as far as mercury amalgams are, would you recommend in every instance that someone has an amalgam? That’s mercury that they shouldn’t have in there?   Dr. Seth Gilson: What I’ll say is I would never have one in my mouth.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes. Why is it sort of a taboo subject?   Dr. Seth Gilson: I don’t know. I honestly don’t know why. Because there’s nothing It doesn’t improve your health in any way. You know that mercury is a known neurotoxin. And there’s again, like on some, there’s plenty of research showing how mercury vapor is released from these fillings when there’s any sort of X excess heat created. So when you’re having hot coffee, if you’re grinding and chewing your teeth commonly, I mean, you’re creating friction, which creates heat. And that is going to release mercury vapor. How much over how long? I mean, it varies for the individual, but breathing in these things is the worst way to become exposed to them.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, but why is it taboo, though? You didn’t answer that, like, I mean, yeah.   Dr. Seth Gilson: I mean, I guess it’s taboo because it’s been used for so long. Because these things that it’s been used for decades. And the FDA, to the FDA, just a year and a half ago, just now started coming out in the middle, the minute in the middle of a pandemic saying that certain people, certain individuals, pregnant women, people that want to get pregnant people, women that are breastfeeding, people with kidney disease, people with other chronic illnesses, people with neurocognitive, neurocognitive disorders should not have these types of feelings place. Now, why is that? Why it’s so there’s some sort of there’s become some sort of recognition. And I think people in these organizations are inching closer to saying, Alright, we’re not going to use this anymore. Everything else is better. But I don’t know if there’s ever going to be like, Oh, these things caused all these problems. This is why we’re not going to use it anymore. But they’re just inching away from using them.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I get it. But you know, 88, if not more percent of Americans are metabolically unhealthy. And I think you could extend it to 88% or more, should not be having that exposure. And I agree with you, too. I think it’s a little bit of cognitive dissonance. If I was a dentist for 50 years, and I was very dogmatic and didn’t want to think about myself kind of making problems worse. I could either change my belief or, or change my behavior. Right. And I guess the belief is to somewhat justify and I think also to there’d be a lot of fallout in terms of admitting wrongdoing, right, with all the people that have had sons. Unfortunately, that happens. And thank you for being forthright with your approach and being diplomatic about attune. So I appreciate that. So as far as oral microbiome goes, Why is that important? And how can we maximize our oral microbiome? You know, or at least not maximize? But make it as healthy as possible?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, so the oral microbiome, and the gut microbiome has become one of the biggest research topics in the world, in the past decade or so. And, that one of the reasons why is that we discovered that about 50% of the DNA in our body is bacterial. So that impacts our health, like the health and the balance of the bacteria in our body impacts our health directly, and as well as indirectly. So the microbiome is all the microorganisms and microorganisms that make up a particular area advice. So there’s the oral microbiome, you have a nasal microbiome, your lungs have their microbiome, your brain has a microbiome, and then the gut. So the guts, the mouth, all the way through to the other end. And there are different makeups as you as you go down. And as far as how we can optimize it, everybody’s everybody has a unique microbiome like everybody has a unique fingerprint, but there is a lot of overlap. So again, there’s still a lot of research going into this, how we can optimize things. Some of the best things we can do are oral hygiene, practice great oral hygiene practices is so so so important, just because our diets are not optimal. Even if you’re eating a majority of plant-based foods. It’s the nutrition density in a lot of our foods these days isn’t what it once was. So proper nutrition, proper oral hygiene, proper going to the dentist, and when.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You say proper oral hygiene, so I didn’t grow up What do you mean flossing? brushing.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Flossing every day every night before you brush and brushing twice a day? A lot? No floor?   Dr. Joel Rosen: No fluoride, no fluoride toothpaste, right? Is there? Is there access to a lot of those? I mean, there are specific brands that you can get now that go out of your way that doesn’t have them that you like that you recommend?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Yes, there’s so the one that I use myself is a brand called Roswell and that’s what we use in the office. And there’s another brand that’s all I’ve heard is also really good called Boca. And these two brands, they’re natural ingredients and they had their main active ingredient is something called Hydroxyapatite. And hydroxyapatite is a natural compound found in our body that makes our teeth and bones hard. And this is actually through research that has been shown to remineralize and help with sensitivity, better than fluoride. And it’s safer. Because it’s not toxic at all. It’s a natural compound. Right? Right. So all oral microbiome, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. And do you recommend some kinds have activated charcoal or there are rinses with ozone? Things like that? Do you ever recommend those as well or not so much?   Dr. Seth Gilson: Mouthwash is one of the biggest problems when it comes to oral microbiomes. You want to never use alcohol-based mouthwash, anything that says it’s antimicrobial is just killing everything in your mouth, generally speaking. So the counter mouthwash and stuff I would never really recommend. I know Riceville has an all-natural mouthwash. I’m not sure about bokeh. But those things will all impact the oral microbiome.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, there’s also a lot of ozonated stuff, too. What’s your thought process on that?   Dr. Seth Gilson: So if you’re going to use something regarding ozone, you have to work with a practitioner that knows how to use ozone. Now, there are some things that you can get over the counter, like ozone gels and things like that. But I don’t it depends. It just depends on where you’re getting them from, and what source you’re getting them from. So I would, I would always suggest getting it from your biological dentist if you’re going to use an ozone gel. And like, for example, we use ozone, water, and ozone gas in the office every single day. But you have to work with a trained practitioner that knows how to properly administer and use these things.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, yeah, I have a podcast that I interviewed someone on that gave me some insight. And I always like to talk to professionals to get their insight as well. So I can talk to you more and more. There are so many things that I want to get into maybe we’ll have a part two if you’re open to that, but I appreciate your time, Seth, as far as the question I always like to ask people on my show is knowing what you know now versus what the bright eyed and bushy tailed Seth may not have known back then what would you have told yourself that would have helped you with your health journey in terms of just being healthier, more proactive, dealing with life stress? Any type of health issues? What would you have told yourself now, then that you know now?   Dr. Seth Gilson: I think the one probably one of the most inter instrumental things that I’ve I’ve come to understand is that phrase know thyself. And I feel once we learn to go within and learn about ourselves, we can better understand and show up in the world around us. And that is what led me that that the start of that journey is what kind of led me down this path to becoming and, constantly wanting to become the best version of myself.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. that’s a great answer. It’s kind of along the lines of what I said were you know, the cognitive dissonance when there’s when you don’t know yourself, and you’re acting out of alignment with what sort of resonates with you, that creates a lot of internal stress, right? So the more you’re authentic, and you you’re not hypocritical and you practice what you think. Right? And there’s not any incongruency between that, then it’s happening. Have you felt like there’s a shift in your health? You haven’t you’re not as burnt out anymore. Like you were at the start of COVID and stuff like that.   Dr. Seth Gilson: For sure. 100 100% I mean, I come into the office every day, feeling more energized. And I leave feeling more satisfied because of it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s great. So how do people find out more about what you do you have your own YouTube channel you practice in South Florida? Give us some insight on where to find you.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Yes, so you can find me on Instagram it’s mindful that Dr. The YouTube channel is the art of mindful medicine. And I have a website called www dot mindful dot doctor and then the Office website is www our holistic dentist.com All right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I’ll make sure I put those in the notes as well. And I will say like out loud to keep myself accountable. I have some major dental issues that I have to go see Dr. Seth with and I would love to be showcasing my journey. I still have mercury amalgam comes in my mouth. And for some reason, I’ve been the doctor, not the patient. So it’s time to switch that up and showcase my journey. So you’ll have to keep me accountable. Now that I’ve broadcasted that to the millions of millions of people that watch this, so super excited to talk to you. So thank you so much for all the information you provide any last words of wisdom that you want to share?   Dr. Seth Gilson: No, I just want to thank you, I’m grateful for the opportunity to come and talk and just share my experiences and what I’ve learned, and what I’m continuing to learn. And just to stay grateful for where we are, what we have, and the wonderful lives that we’re living.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. We, after our last podcast, we talked about maybe being able to help each other because your chocolate in my peanut butter, you know, can work well together in terms of looking at what else can someone do besides doing these safe removals and, and being able to get their oral microbiome in check. There may have already been lots of challenges that are impacting their, energy production, and their ability to detox, then they have these genetic susceptibilities that make these things worse, but from my point of view, the ones that aren’t responding what should be typically Okay, we got we shot probably should have started with the mouth and what’s going on. But usually, it’s one of those things that doesn’t get addressed right away. And you’ll see the combination of our work together really improve the lives of a lot of people. So thank you so much, Seth, and I look forward to our next conversation.   Dr. Seth Gilson: Yeah, me too. Thanks, Joe. I appreciate it. Thanks. The post Oral Microbiome Advice, One Biological Dentist’s Unbiased Review appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: So here we are for another edition of the truth about your health with my distinguished and honorable guests, Morley, and Morley Robbins. And we are here to discuss this is actually part four, I believe, or part   Morley Robbins: Might be part 5.   Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. So I know Ari Witten said part 17 or part 16. But we’re on our way there. So I’m excited to have you in my office. It’s a pleasure. So So Morley, I took a lot of notes after our last interview, and we were talking about the recycling of iron. And it’s fascinating how the body needs only 25 milligrams of iron, of which 24 are what we already have in our body. Exactly. And when it doesn’t, you have a negative regulator, and a positive regulator, copper being the positive regulator, and iron being the negative regulator. And we got into talking about how different environmental factors will make it difficult to negatively regulate energy production. And so can you get into that a little bit because you lost me a little bit, and I listened to it again. And I wanted a little bit more clarification because it wasn’t only vitamin D. There was also high fructose corn syrup that you did on your pot in your masterclass. So maybe we could talk about what happens when the body isn’t able to recycle iron effectively, and how, what the consequences of those are okay?   Morley Robbins: Sure. It’s a really, I think it’s a really foundational concept, understands and appreciates you want to kind of dig a little deeper. Because the whole notion of recycling is foreign to a lot of people like our body recycles. And it seems, as I got into the research, it seems that every recycling program requires copper. And so the cells have a stomach, called the lysosome. And that’s where the recycling takes place. And one of our good friends who’s a radiologist advised is said that the lysosome runs on high-energy peroxides. If you’ve got high-energy peroxide, you may have copper nearby to help manage that and regulate that. And there are not a lot of articles that get into that. But one in particular, that’s very, very good at it, is by Kim and Gonzalez from 2021. It’s a very, it’s pretty high brow. But it’s but I think even the average layman can follow it. Because it really gets into how sophisticated the lysosome is, and how copper-dependent it is as well. And why don’t we know this, right? But the nuance is that every second of every day, every second, we’re gonna make two and a half million red blood cells. Well, the numbers get outrageously big. When you start getting break it down to hemoglobin. And then he, we’re talking, we’re talking really big numbers every second, we’ve got to be able to make that. And where’s that? Where’s that taking place? It’s in the bone marrow. And the bone marrow is principally the pelvic region and the long bones. That’s where most of the bone marrow is. And it’s basically fat. But I think the important thing for folks to understand is that when we do a blood test, to find out what’s going on, especially since 70% of the iron in the body is in hemoglobin. That’s it. I call it the bucket of iron. It’s a huge vessel of iron. That’s evil. Another 10% is supposed to be in the storage protein ferritin. And that is supposed to be inside the cells that are supposed to be in the blood. When it’s in the blood, it means it’s outside the cell. That’s not good. But I know we’re going to come back to that. But then there’s a third and so the ferritin is like a teacup. So we got a bucket, we got a teacup, and then we have what’s called Syrah Meyer. And that’s a thimble. So we have 70% 10% 1/10 of 1% of the iron in the serum, the serum. And it’s a really important 1/10 of 1%. Because it’s telling us how efficient the recycling system is. And so there’s a huge amount of iron in the blood. When we do a blood test, only 1% of copper is in the blood. 46% is in the bone marrow. So if you really want to measure someone’s true copper status, you got to do a bone marrow biopsy. That’s fun. Yeah, you first Yeah. No, no one ever thinks about that, right? And if you really want to know what someone’s iron status really is, either do a needle biopsy of a liver or do a Tesla to MRI. Right? They’re very accurate. But that’s the Tesla three, not the Tesla 4567, Tesla for some reason has the best affinity for measuring iron status, like, go faded, right? So that the issue is the recycling system is critical for turning over the iron. And where’s this? You know, so you’ve got, you’ve got the situation where iron is being stored in ferritin. But it’s got to be released, it’s got to get out. And it turns out that there are two different types of therapy, which have what’s called a heavy chain, and a light chain. It’s actually a spectrum. And the way I characterize it now is to think of the light chain as vanilla. Think of heavy chains as chocolate. Okay, okay. Right? If I notice any chocolate noses, coppery chocolate, right, that’s much of vanilla. But, the thing is, the heavy chain means it has what’s called the Ferro oxidase enzyme function. And so heavy chain is like an ATM machine, you can put money in, you could take money out of my head, and what the fair for each and every chain does, you can put it in, you can take it out. And there’s no exhaust, there’s no status, there’s no, but on the light chain side, though, the action is stimulated by hydrogen peroxide. And hydrogen peroxide will oxidize iron to get it into the storage protein. But there’s always a cost, it’s gonna give off exhaust, right? And so that’s not a good thing. And in order to get it out of the ferritin, your chi, uric acid. uric acid is observed, we’re gonna talk about it. But uric acid is like, mind-blowing metabolite, that’s getting a lot of notoriety now between Richard Johnson and David Perlmutter, and a number of other authors. But it’s like, it’s behind all the chronic disease because it’s getting too high. But we need it. It’s a really essential part. It’s all about the bill shaker, the Goldilocks, not too high, not too low, just right. And so the ferritin needs to be broken down. And it needs to be broken down in the lysosome. And it needs to have these high-energy peroxides to do it. And if they can’t crank it, what happens is the iron gets dumped into the tissue. And there was a 10 amino acid cleavage of the ferritin protein. And it gets released gets secreted into the bloodstream. So it shows up in the bloodstream. And doctors have been trained to believe that what’s in the ferritin in the blood is representative of ferritin in the cell. I wouldn’t trust that marker. Right. And it’s not just one author I’ve probably found seven authors who clearly say, ferret Veriton is not a good indicator of iron status. It’s just it’s too volatile as a marker. But the thing is, the important thing to understand is that there is a recycling program. And that it depends on energy and these peroxides to do that. And there are all sorts of chaperones that also transport proteins involved in that. None of which I don’t think it’s taught in any kind of doctorate school. They all teach a doctor school seems to be a dipstick. Right, too high, too low, whatever. But, it’s a much more nuanced process to understand what’s happening to iron in the body. And I think a lot of people don’t realize the sophistication of their bodies. And they don’t realize that iron, it’s a critical nutrient. We know we can’t live without it, right? But iron is the foot soldier, and copper is the general. So let’s picture the Battle of the Bulge. Without patent. It’s a very different story when he’s not there. It would, would have been a very different ending to the war if you hadn’t been there. But the thing is, as I’m coming to understand it, day by day, week, by week, every facet of iron metabolism depends on copper. I mean, it’s just the production of heme, the production of hemoglobin, the production of red blood cells, and the recycling of the ferritin protein. It’s like, oh, my gosh, it’s so copper-dependent. And this has been in the literature, going back to the 30s. ActuItrted with the 20s, but a lot of literature in the 30s and 40s. But as recently as the 20 teens, I mean, there are some really sophisticated articles out there from 2016 2018 2019 2021. That came to Gonzalez. And it’s like, it’s not, it’s not hidden. It’s just not been.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, just interject there. I’ve seen you be interviewed by different guests, and you spill out research that they’re not aware of. And I almost feel like in a paradoxical way, it’s not looked at as legit research, if it’s older research, right? But it shouldn’t be the opposite. It should be thought of the older it is when we didn’t have all this technology or the incentives to publish certain things, certain ways that they were doing it with the limited technology, if anything, that research is much more sound and that much is like you always say is more endearing? And is you find, I guess, just as a side question, do you find when you present your research to people that interview you, they kind of show it off as Oh, that was done in the 20s or 30s?   Morley Robbins: They may not say it, but Right. Absolutely believe that. Yeah. And that’s it’s not that. They’re not bad people. It’s a societal meme, right? Well, it’s got to be three seconds old to be valid. Right, right. And if it’s are you kidding, it’s 100 years old, right? How can I possibly trust that? Right? Well, let’s talk about Newton. was Newton wrong, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. It goes, it goes to show like I mean, by the time the ivory towers hits the street, it’s already old news, right? And I think that you need that time for it to actually get implemented, versus the stuff that gets published today. You don’t have the Morley Robbins giving it to you in your face right away. Here it is. And you’re usually going to hear about that another 20 years from now.   Morley Robbins: Exactly. And I think what’s important for people to appreciate is there’s a level of simplicity, but there’s a level of sophistication to how our body works to be the recycling system for iron the formulators, reticular, endothelial system.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I like to know what yeah, why did they come up with.   Morley Robbins: That? Why did they come up with that, but basically means recycling? And it’s run by copper. It’s totally run by copper. And what’s important is the three principal organs that are involved in it are the liver, the spleen, and the bone marrow. So that’s what’s happening in the liver, there’s a lot of storage of iron in the liver. That’s really it’s a good thing, but that’s what’s happened. The spleen is where the old red blood cells are being turned over, that they, they go there, they get broken down and the iron is gonna get released. It’s also gonna get released in the liver because there’s some breakdown in the liver as well. But, Oregon, I guess, I call it an organ. I don’t know what else to call it. But then the substance in our body that has the strongest attraction for iron is the bone marrow. If I had a choice between the liver and spleen Boehner always got involved.   Dr. Joel Rosen: is that because that’s, that’s where the 100 concentration of copper is?   Morley Robbins: Concentration copper and it knows it’s going to be turned back into here. You hemoglobin in red blood cells.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? You know, what’s amazing to me is is that you find with people that are searching for the root cause protocol, and you see, well, you have to detox the liver, or you have to get rid of mold, or you have to get rid of Epstein Barr, or you have to do this cleanse or that cleanse. But no one’s talking about what you just mentioned, in terms of you what I love about it as you approach it from an energy standpoint. And what is more important is it than your body making red blood cells to be able to deliver oxygen to be able to make ATP? And I think that’s where the buck start stops, like, okay, maybe you have an iron that’s trapped in your integral sites, and it’s feeding parasites, and at some point, you’re gonna have to address this. But if you’re going to have a Game of War, and you want to figure out which is the more superior card, if you will, it’s the necessity to be able to respire, it’s the necessity to be able to breathe at the cellular level.   Morley Robbins: Absolutely true. And there’s a very famous physiologist. He was actually a biologist, I think he was drawn to physiology at a professional University, in Wisconsin, back in the 20s. And 30s. He ended up it was so cool. His name was Conrad LVM. He was Dutch, originally from the Netherlands, I suppose. But he started out as a farm boy, outside of Wisconsin, outside of Madison, and he wanted to go to the university. And he enrolled a got an undergrad in biology, that he got a master’s doctorate, and then became in charge of the biochemistry department, then he became the president of the university skies system. It’s a kind of rags-to-riches story, that’s fabulous. But he made this observation back in the 30s. About Us, and he was making an observation about copper, seeking to transform iron into hemoglobin. And he was very specific about using that word, transform iron, and he will, and that’s what he does. And then I started thinking about building on that same idea. Copper, transforms oxygen, into the water, to release energy, it is the transformer that is taking these basic substrates’ basic elements and transforms them, so they become usable. They, reinforce the ability to produce and to be able to do whatever kind of work needs to be done. And that’s conference gift is it’s the transform, right? And it’s, that’s not that, that’s taken me 15.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Years to write.   Morley Robbins: Now I see it very differently. I knew it was important, but it’s like, there’s like this holy grail quest about it. Right? It’s fascinating.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s like Zen in the art of copper mastery. Right? understand more and more. You know, it’s so so going back to the recycling and the negative regulator. And we did talk about how vitamin D is shown to keep the negative regulator from operating effectively because he will. So maybe get into that more later, because I’m kind of curious where you mentioned, the only way to continue recycling is through iron egress. And I didn’t understand what that meant. So when the body has the negative regulator, there’s no copper to positively regulate the recycling of red blood cells that have decided, well, I look at it as the dungeon door that you know, that comes down and the chains come down and claps the door down. That’s exactly right. And then that way, your body is now creating a whole bunch of exhaust, but it’s also I guess, fermenting glucose, not using oxygen, aerobic ly continue to make energy, but in order to continue the recycling the iron egress, so I didn’t understand that. Maybe you could also talk about that and then the other environmental factors that make the door not go down and why that’s a problem given that the negative regulator needs to turn on given that you don’t have the copper to positive reregulate so yeah, maybe we can kind of go down that pathway now.   Morley Robbins: Okay. So bring the football season. I guess we’re in the playoffs.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Almost.   Morley Robbins: Coming up to it. And so forgive us. We’re going to use a football analogy. And I will listen to this is new as a nuance of football, but everyone knows what quarterback knows, the quarterback makes the plays quarterback gets the MVP trophy. A quarterback is a positive regulator on a football team very clearly. They’re the ones calling the plays, they’re the ones making the plays. And I think it’s a very easy analogy. The negative regulator on a football team is called the middle linebacker. Nobody wants to be by the middle linebacker, because he shuts down the play, right? That’s their job. They’re shutting it down. So what we’re looking at here is, the body is designed to work if we’re clipping along and making two and a half million red blood cells a second, the body has this obsessive need to be constantly rebuilding turning iron into hemoglobin, which can then go into feed the, the amount of hemoglobin in one red blood cell. It’s, it’s like a billion. It’s like it’s ridiculous numbers, huge numbers. So the thing is, the body is relying on copper to keep the system going. And when copper starts to get depleted, contrary to what the literature will tell you, Oh, the prevalence of copper deficiency is very rare. Now, I think it’s pretty endemic to the planet, but things with copper started to get low. This negative regulator in the system is called the hep side. And it’s an acute microbial peptide, or what waste was really designed to do is to shut down the recycling program for iron to keep it away from the pathogens, keep the iron in the tissue that’s working with the macrophages, the PacMan, that gobble up the dying red blood cells. Keep that iron in the macrophages so I can’t get out into the bloodstream. Because the good bacteria are in our gut, the bad bacteria are in our blood. And as soon as iron gets to a level of excess, the pathogens have a feeding frenzy. That’s well well documented. And the thing is, the body is designed to recycle. The body is designed to rely on the positive regulator, keeping the wheels spinning. But when it perceives that, it’s not able to do that, it’s going to invite the synthesis of the negative regulator, it’s coming out of the liver livers a command central for making have side hip side is keyed off by interleukin six, in particular, inflammation is what’s really going to trigger it most of all, and sugar will trigger it without any shooting must cause inflammation while it does.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Cut according to nature wants you fat. That’s the survival switch. But they failed to mention anything about the bioavailable copper and the positive regulation. Exactly right.   Morley Robbins: And so the thing is that the body has this mechanism of turning on the upside to shut down the arm recycling to keep it away from the pathogens. And that’s called our immune system. Right now. It’s a primal response to what’s perceived as a threat. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: And just to interject, it would be great because I again, told you this that I really enjoyed. I don’t enjoy hearing you say, you know when I kick the bucket, but I enjoyed when you say when I kick the bucket that if I had made the change of doctor looking at anemia, with not the knee-jerk reaction of let’s pump you with more iron, but it’s a chronic illness. I think what happens is hopefully not just what happens, but the whole mentality of Wait, is the body doing something intelligent here? Or is it something that we need to pharmaceutically override and shut down and support?   Morley Robbins: It took me two or three years of working with clients who had what they said was anemia. Though he was technically hemoglobin, he needed me only to refer to low hemoglobin. It doesn’t refer to low ferritin. It doesn’t refer to the low serum iron. It’s been bastardized over the years. But typically it’s referring to definition, by definition, do we have enough red blood cells in the blood and therefore hemoglobin to support that? That’s true anemia. And what Joe was referring to here is this. The abject confusion about anemia of iron deficiency. There’s not enough iron in the body is showing low in the blood. But no one’s thinking about what’s iron stands in the tissue. So the blood is anemic, but it’s the tissue.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s like looking out in the ocean, there are no boats, there are no boats in the sea, we’ll take your blind. Oh, there’s a whole other ocean over here. There are a lot of boats over there.   Morley Robbins: True. And so getting people to realize that iron presents differently different tissue. That’s, that’s huge. But getting kidney practitioners to realize, wow, there’s a way I described it in one of my presentations. There’s a calculus to accomplish its role in regulating iron tablets. But what doctors have been taught to us is just a ruler. There’s a layer, but you don’t solve calculus with a ruler,   Dr. Joel Rosen: And the ruler is off, by the way. Yeah, like not only is it measuring the absolute at the absolute numbers are way up here, when you can be telling down here that if you’re going to use a ruler, at least use a real ruler accurately, exactly, you know.   Morley Robbins: And the thing is that we have signed the starts to flex its muscles because the liver perceives there’s inflammation.   Dr. Joel Rosen: it’s a cell danger, it’s a cell danger response exactly.   Morley Robbins: Right. And all of all the immune systems to ways we got to batten down the hatches, we’ve got to stop the iron egress. So that iron is not going to get into the bloodstream to feed the pathogen, right? So very simple response. And you make the comment about the body doing something intelligent? What it was gonna say a minute ago is it took me a long time to figure out why people have low hemoglobin. It’s actually pretty simple. The body knows there isn’t enough bioavailable copper, to activate the oxygen. So why would I bring more oxygen into a system that I know can’t support it? So it’s going to regulate down the production of hemoglobin, so we’re not going to have as much oxygen so that if we have too much oxygen in the system, there’s no copper to either activated or deactivated where you’re going to have oxygen is just coming out. Right. And I think the body does have the intelligence to say, hey, stop, yeah, we don’t need all this.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oil on the fire. Exactly. Well, that same thing happens with the thyroid Marli, I see that as well. So that the body is intelligent, we don’t need to continue fanning the fire. Right. So let’s slow down the thyroid signaling, the thyroid uptake, the thyroid conversion, let’s produce antibodies, let’s go out of our way to do whatever we can to slow this oxygen sensing and metabolic activation of oxygen that’s only going to get converted into hydroxyl radicals or it’s going to get to oxidize. And I think that’s a problem. Very similar in the sense that, well, let’s just give you thyroid hormone, or let’s just pour more iron in there and not look at what’s actually going on.   Morley Robbins: Yeah, there’s there isn’t enough awareness that, again, the biggest bolus of iron in the body 70% is in hemoglobin. Another 10% is in muscles called myoglobin. So it’s 80% of the iron in the body is a waiter carrying oxygen. Right? Who’s the chef that slicing and dices the oxygen that’s covered? And no one’s thinking about that side of the equation? It’s all about supply. Well, are we able to work with it? And there’s a voice in one article. It was an article about hypoxia. When we hear the word hypoxia, we suddenly go to the top of Mount Everest. Its altitude, and lack of oxygen. But that’s not what hypoxia is referring to. at a cellular level. It’s functional hypoxia. It’s not a lack of oxygen, it’s the inability to activate the oxygen. And if the oxygen can’t be activated, because copper is not present in the mitochondria, that is going to be turned into an oxidant. It’s going to be superoxide. It’s going to be hydrogen peroxide is going to be a hydroxyl radical, it might be peroxy nitrite. Oh no. And it’s going to devolve into one of those. And that means it’s not available to become water because it’s already been transformed into one of these other and that’s an ending the design of our body is such that our maker and mother nature wants copper to both activate oxygen to make energy and deactivate the oxygens to clear the exhaust. I’m not sure I would have designed the system that way. But that’s the job of copper is to work both sides. It’s offense-defense, right? And it’s totally dependent on bioavailable copper to make that happen.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so so then we You did mention so this is where I’m a bit confused. So if Vitamin D has shown to not allow that negative regulator to slam the door shut, right, so now that it continues to want to do the reticular, endothelial recycling through the movement of iron yet it doesn’t have the key, or the concierge to move it out of the tissues. So what kind happened?   Morley Robbins: I mean there’s, it’s it isn’t just 5g, it’s ascorbic acid, right was another. I’m trying to think.   Dr. Joel Rosen: There was Kairos, ACE inhibitors and   Morley Robbins: Tyrosine kinase inhibitors. There’s a whole class of elements, and I want to use my little cheat sheet.   Dr. Joel Rosen: right? Well, that fructose, high corn syrup, fructose, that tells it to shut the door? Or where’s that fitting in?   Morley Robbins: like high fructose corn syrup going to do? Yeah, it’s going to tell it to shut the door. And it is going to begin to produce more uric acid. And then uric acid is going to off-override the head side. And it’s going to start to pull the audio out of the ferret. I mean, it’s absolutely mind-blowing. Right. Right. I mean, it’s just, it’s like, you start to get into some of the second and third-order effects.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Yeah. And on top of that, what, I think is fascinating is, when there is so much vitamin D. And vitamin A isn’t able to be absorbed or help the nuclear receptor, then that shuts down cellular respiration. Yep. Right. And then now we are glucose burners, and we’re not able to aerobic ly burn fat. And really what I picture Morley is a tailpipe that has massive amounts of smoke coming out of it. Yeah. That’s, it’s like a plane spinning under control, spiraling down, and eventually hitting the floor. Yeah. So that’s, that’s all of that is kind of where we talked about the last time, right, right. But now where do you feel it needs to go obviously, uric acid is a big one. One thing I do is this is a completely left-field one. But I want to, I want you to help answer this because I think a lot of really good people have not necessarily been taught, all that needs to be taught about the subject. So it has to do with, copper tubes and a copper one. And you and I had a conversation the other day, a lot of people want the copper one so that it’s in its usable, ready-to-go form, and are being told that copper two isn’t able to be utilized. And it just a pile accumulates, and you have high extracellular copper, that’s basically inert, not able to work. But the amazing thing about Sarup plasm, is the fact that it has the ability to reduce copper to some people feel that it doesn’t do it very effectively, or it doesn’t do it at all, or it’s not worth it to get this sources of copper to maybe we can talk a little bit about that I don’t need to put you on the spot, I want to be able to talk about that. Because I want to bridge the gap between I think you have a lot of like these sects that sort of divided from these religions. And at the end of the day, instead of having more, they’re so close with their principles and philosophies that you just need a couple of little bridging conversations to say you say you think the same thing I do. But I took a different slant on it. Now that I see your slant, which is in this case, the truth and chemistry and biology 101. But maybe we can talk about it because I personally don’t understand it as much as I like to but as soon as you told me, so we will plasm has the ability to do that it would make perfect sense.   Morley Robbins: Yeah. Just saw this because there, there are several, what are called reductase enzymes, and DC YTB. Step three, I’m sure there are others, they all have this natural ability to reduce right? And so that when we’re talking about chemically reduce, so suddenly x plus two is going to become plus one or something as plus three is going to become plus two. Right? But the thing is plus one. Cooper’s copper is found inside the cell plus two coup pricks. Copper is found outside the cell. Well, there’s got to be a way to regulate that. And that’s one of the many jobs of pseudo plasmon there’s a fascinating article by a famous middle biologist. His name was Earl freedom. He was sort of the date of metal biology in the 60s 70s 80s, maybe even early 90s But he was four State University. He wrote a really important article in 1968. In Scientific American, which would be designed for the public. You know, it’s not nature’s Scientific American. He’s talking about the biochemistry of copper. It’s an amazing article gets from 68. But he talks about three forms of copper. So we’ve got this copper two plus two, copper plus one. Copper neutral, copper zero. I never, I’ve never seen him know. And it’s another valence for copper. And what does that mean? It means it’s immediately accessible to the body to the tissue, there’s no resistance. But what the plus one plus two is there’s got to be a transaction to allow the copper to get in. And copper zero, there is no transaction, right? And so the form of copper that we use in the recuperate product, it’s copper bis-glycinate. And the folks that LVM figured out a way to make copper, that copper neutral. That’s what runs copper. This question is whether it’s copper neutral. So it really doofuses this whole thing plus one plus two. Right. But I think what’s important is the challenge we face I think, where some of these reductase enzymes are found, is in our gut. And then the exposure to chemicals and different medications and what have you, I think it really compromised our reductase bacteria. Right? That’s where I think that’s where the challenge is right to help restore this natural mechanism. And there’s no question that that felt the Ferro oxidase enzyme function is critical for the Ferro oxidase was referring to oxidizing, but this rule plasmin protein, as many and varied functionalities. And so the gut needs to have more bioavailable copper, right to do that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And that, and I always look at it as demand and supply. So if you think about that, that would be the I guess that’s the supply, right? In terms of you having the healthy flora to be able to reduce the copper one, because it’s able to do that. So it’s supplying more, whereas the demand with the farming practices and the leaching of our minerals and the glyphosate and the not ripening of our foods, and just it’s not able to make the available copper and it’s in its ready to go state. So your demand is that much higher? And I think that’s the argument is, is that in a lot of the crappier products or food sources, you’re getting too much of the copper to then our body has mainly been designed to have to reduce I don’t know if that’s true or not, but I would imagine the supply is, is lower, and the demand is higher.   Morley Robbins: Yeah. Right. And I think, you know, Charlie Parker, governance is so utterly broken was probably the most articulate about the proper copper, right? But he was really referring to it from the standpoint of in the agricultural setting, you can spray copper down on the soil, and the microbes know what to do to turn that into that copper one, right to get it into the plant. Right. But in order, it’s going to have to get back to copper in order to get back into the body. I mean, it’s just, there’s a constant, right flip-flop that’s taking place. And so I think that there’s an undue emphasis placed on valence when in fact, what we need to be focusing on is, how do we support the body’s natural ability to make bioavailable copper to make the Well, that’s   Dr. Joel Rosen: The last thing and I think it’s important to mention that when you told me the other day that you had talked to Charlie, and he did mention to you that the Surulere plasm. He didn’t understand, I think the nuance of the bioavailable copper. And I mentioned to you that he was wrong about that, not to you know, this disparages anyone or no, he.   Morley Robbins: You know, his initial response was sort of a puzzle that has nothing to do with copper status. And I said, Well, I think it’s more complicated, or it’s more foundational, and over a two-year period, or after a two-year period, he came to both call me personally but also publicly say, right, he’s right about smooth, right. So he really, I get a lot of credit for taking the time and Energy to study it and be able to say, Hey, I was wrong. There is more to the story. And so I just think it’s important for people within the nutritional and medical arts community to understand that there is a subtlety to this, that is not being openly taught at the level that I think it needs to be. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: This is a good segue to what we talked about in terms of, what do we do about this? Right? I mean, and I really love the concept, we talked about the Pentium chip and how the RCEP is really, the overriding stop doing these things that deplete your bioavailable copper, start doing these things. But then we talked about we have really great minds and practitioners that have really followed that to a tee. But yeah, because of the perfect storm of life and the environment. And I guess if you will post-traumatic stressors in their life and other nuances, that they’re not getting those next level of improvements.   Morley Robbins: Exactly. Yeah, they’re all They’re always going to be some roadblocks in the way, right? And to me, the biggest roadblock is more of an emotional nature, unwillingness to let go of fears or anxieties or whatever the emotional issues might be. But there are others. And we can get into that. But I think people need to realize that the body does respond to energy. But when there’s emotional unrest, it’s going to deplete the energy in the system, right? It’s gonna have a big hit.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think a lot of people miss that, too. Right. And we’ve talked about this to where I think it’s really important to when you’re a practitioner, and you work with a patient, so many of them are like this morally, like, okay, like, I’ve been here. I’ve been there. I’ve been here. I’ve been there. I don’t want to be there. Yes. Well, where do you want to go? Well, I don’t want to be there anymore. I don’t want to go there. And it’s like, well, what about over here? Like, where do you want to go? So I think that is a really important part of the emotional component. Because if you don’t know what the destination looks like, how do you know if you’re getting closer to it?   Morley Robbins: Totally agree. It’s, it’s huge. And people keep playing these tapes from the past? Right? I don’t have a sense of what are they really trying to grasp. Right? What is the truth? What is, their passion? What are they striving for, they keep throwing the anchor back here, right, and it’s just they get stuck, they do definitely get stuck.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So So then, as far as the other things that we talked about, you talked a little bit about, and this is kind of all over the place. And I have noted here what I’m looking at. And I think these are good talks in terms of a toffee G, and what a toughie G is, and a toffee g of ferritin. That was a word that I hadn’t heard before combined together, and how copper is necessary for that. So I’m interested to know and you give me research articles that I won’t need to get into that I want to, but what have you seen in your research of a toffee, G toffee g of ferritin, how copper plays a pivotal role in that sort of a shift and what we’re talking about, but I would love to get into that too because I feel like you mentioned and I tell people that one of the major activators of your immune system, and NADPH oxidase enzyme, and histamine is the fact that iron is going to oxidize. k And when Iron oxidizes like that, that’s a major growth factor. mTOR is stimulated. And you’ve mentioned that many times. And I’m glad you have in terms of people need to realize we’re in a constant growth cycle. And they do mention that in the book, right 365 We have access to fruits, we have access to light 24/7 We’re eating all the time. So it’s necessary and vital for those nonresponders to implement into their strategy, the ability to plow the fields, instead of always growing the seeds and recycling the soils and removing misfolded I think people are understanding that now they understand the term autophagy but they only use the an eat intermittent fast, or I need to restrict my proteins. But we’re back at the Pentium here in terms of copper and how this all regulates it. So maybe explain that I’d love to hear about that.   Morley Robbins: Well, the thing is a very simple rule. Any Condition that’s not working right and begins with the letter A these vitamin A autophagy officers not working right and a lot of people, right. So how do you make a compromise you got to have retinol, right? And so you get into temperature, you suddenly find out that, again, we’re back to these high-energy peroxides. And they’ve got, they’ve got to have energy, and you’ve got to do what they do. It’s like, oh, my gosh, we’re back to bioavailable copper again. And it’s so subtle in its presence, but it’s the activity must take. And again, there’s constant recycling in our bodies. And the literature is very clear about what happens when retinol comes in on the scene, it begins to ignite. I think there’s an energy to it in and of itself. But it’s enabling the transactions that need to take place to support the ongoing process of rebuilding the body. It’s, to me it’s, it’s fascinating that they gave a Nobel Prize for autophagy. I don’t remember them talking about it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’ve seen some pretty big influencers that I’ve seen at metabolic summits, the older names we know, and I asked them about vitamin A and their deem that deer in the headlights. But it’s interesting, as we’re talking, it would make sense that if we have to recycle 2.5 million red blood cells per second, not to even get into the orders of magnitude of heme and hemoglobin. But if we have to do that, and that’s called our reticular endothelial system, and that’s our recycling, it would make sense if that’s not happening, then our recycling of misfolded proteins isn’t happening, our entire recycling is not happening.   Morley Robbins: I was reading a fascinating article this morning about movement disorders, you know, Parkinson’s and other related disorders, right, and there’s a dozen or so tied to hematology and the inability to replace the red blood cells properly. It’s an early warning sign that there’s a problem. And, again, they don’t go into the level of detail about bioavailable copper that I want. But the fact of the matter is, they were able to connect hematology to movement disorders, which means that the blood is not being replaced properly, and the recycling system is not working properly. It’s creating exhaust in the system. And it’s playing out in the signaling for neurotransmitters and other nuances of movement in the body.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And you know, it’s interesting, because it shouldn’t be so head-scratching or confusing if even you’re a layperson and wondering why we’re talking about copper and why it’s all copper centric. I mean, think about the plug in the wire plug and the copper wire that makes it work. Think about I love this when you said you know iron is more structural, copper is more catalytic in the buildings, the copper keeps the current flowing, and the pipes moving, whereas the iron keeps the structure up, right? Just a segue I told you about a young lady who emailed me. And she’s, you know, she’s in a, in more of a difficult, I guess, a European country where it’s difficult to get testing. And it’s even harder to get good providers that understand this. But it’s deflating Morley when you present this message of how important copper is. And then you give them advice. And then they tell you Well, I’m concerned and it’s not their fault. It’s what they’re being taught and told by their providers, this thing of copper toxicity, conference, copper toxicity. So I guess for our viewers, is there a 62nd? Elevator Pitch to explain? Hey, it’s not toxic? You just you’re being told the exact opposite?   Morley Robbins: I mean, what is there a case to do a real quick deal with the copper toxicity issue because it’s an important one? The copper, ratio of copper and iron is very, very important in understanding the body. So for every atom of copper, there are at least 50 Atoms of iron. And get on appreciate that they don’t understand that, that the copper atom is completely outnumbered. In the same way that generals are outnumbered by foot soldiers. We’re back to the same concept of Oh, was there someone who has intelligence tell him the other guys that don’t know what to do? Well, to me, iron is it’s a dumbwaiter. If 80% of iron is carrying oxygen, it’s a dumbwaiter. It does what it’s told to do. And it’s been glorified into the stomach.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Those are the things in the buildings. Right. So it’s more it’s a dominator. Yeah. again, exactly.   Morley Robbins: But the thing is that what science is trying to do is turn iron into a sentient being. It is not such it is not thoughtful. I could go on for a couple of hours about what Ray Hopper does, but basically taking orders and falling when placed close to do, right? But the thing is if you don’t appreciate that, if you don’t understand both the order of magnitude, there’s way more iron in the body than there is copper what they’re trying to say let’s pretend that copper is a Navy Seal, and I are digital warriors. And we know that I interact with oxygen, incomparable to they both will interact with oxygen. But the design from Mother Nature is for copper to make the oxygen usable. And to clear the exhaust. I entered either carry it or create static creates a lot of exhaust. And so we’ve got this order of magnitude at least 50 to one more iron, and copper. And we have this, this copper finds its way into enzymes that work with the oxygen. Iron is not finding its way into enzymes to carry it. It literally just carries it and does its job. And so the other side of it is the whole notion of copper toxicity was the brainchild of Carl Pfeiffer’s famous MD Ph.D. Back in the 60s, he wrote a very important book called mental elemental nutrients written I think it was like 68 or something like that. And he wrote articles about the different elements but he was really fascinated by copper. And in a particularly poignant article, he talked about copper becoming unbound from some Rouleau plasmon under conditions of stress, which we’ve talked about, right? Well, that phrase, copper becoming unbound from smooth plasma became Unbound, copper became free copper became copper toxicity. And it was all the nuances of the original scientific finding that then like like a game of telephone, you know, you’re in a big circle. Yeah, the original message got changed, and by the time it got changed, it went from being copper unbound from its proteins rule plasm to its toxic, it’s like the copper is always bound. If it’s not bound to surreal plasma, which is where I’ve seen as high as 90% of the copper in the blood is bound to circular plasmon, we have to keep one thing in mind. Only 1% of the copper is in the blood, right? 99% is in the tissue folks, right? And when it’s in the tissue it works with enzymes, when it’s inside the cell is bound to a ligand. Can you believe they don’t know what that ligand is? They don’t know what the partner is to copper. Is it that they don’t know or they don’t want us to know I don’t know? But the point is, the vast majority of copper is in our tissue. Only 1% of the blood, but when it’s not bound to swallow plasmon, it’s bound to albumin bound to the amino acid histidine is bound to transport a protein called Trans country. And one of my favorite cover researchers is at Hopkins from the MOSFET level. Lutsenko she’s brilliant, absolutely brilliant about copper. The article that she wrote back in 2018 was about the heart, mind body, and soul of copper. That was a really cool article. But the thing is, she studied the amount of free copper inside the cell. And it was one to the negative 10 to the negative 21. It’s called Zepto. Bore, there are 21 zeros. And that one, it’s virtually impossible to have the copper unknown right in the tissue. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s just it’s so so where was Pfeiffer getting his information from?   Morley Robbins: Well, yeah, again, he was looking at it in the blood. He made this cup this comment about copper and do this game of telephone. His original finding got turned into free copper unbelt free copper means it’s toxic. And there’s a lot of research that has been done over the years to try to blame copper for the lipid peroxidation is taking place. Copper is causing LDL to be a problem child and again, it’s just So let’s talk about the iron. That’s 50 times high, right? But they don’t.   Dr. Joel Rosen: But it’s always amazing to me when those broken telephones actually are the enduring things, how that happens. But just as a side note, I was watching the interview with Dr. Mercola. And I wanted to talk numbers. So let’s talk about the iron sinkhole that we have in our bodies, right? Because that’s what we have, right? And you and you, conservatively said, times your age by 365 times that by 365. And that in a very, very conservative way, will be the amount of iron that you’ve accumulated over your lifetime. It’s not me that’s not Morley Robbins.   Morley Robbins: Biologist. Right. That’s Robert. Correct. That’s right. It’s right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I think it goes without saying whenever you, I mean, you have opinions, but their opinions are based on research, right? So, so talk the numbers, because I think it’s really important for people to realize because I see this with my patient base, where when you start to turn on the engine by making more bioavailable copper, it’s kind of like a rebuilt engine, in the sense that you have a lot of black smoke to clear out once you get the engine working, right. And that’s where you have to be very slow and methodical because it’s not necessarily more or better, you don’t want to what I call metabolically overwhelm the system and go into shutdown mode. But with that being said, there is an impetus as a major tool, besides the things that we recommend to stop doing. And the things that we start to we recommend to start doing in terms of the numbers, maybe get into that more than like how much iron typically is released in a donation? How much iron should we have? How much do we typically have, so that we can get an idea that this is a verb, this is something that’s going to be ongoing? Right? So maybe we can talk a little bit about that?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, so I just celebrated my 70th birthday back in November. So you take your age times 365? Well, this is the Medal of Honor. It was 25,000.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s conservative, right? I mean, obviously, maybe like 20 years ago, probably would have been a lot higher with the dietary enriched foods you would have been eating and so forth.   Morley Robbins: So a band is supposed to have about 5000 milligrams, five times more hunger right now, technically, I may not have that much. But theoretically, right. But the thing is, people are talking about this formula. People are not aware of the fact that every day we’re on the planet is accumulating one milligram, at least one milligram. That’s before we got dietarily.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Exactly right.   Dr. Joel Rosen & Morley Robbins: And we’re not even taking supplements, enriched foods, except right.   Morley Robbins: So the thing is, it couldn’t be higher. Right, right. So where, where is that iron going? It’s going in the liver and the spleen. It’s just, especially when there is adequate copper in the diet. If copper is low iron is going to accumulate in the body. Where is it going to heal it? First and foremost, it’s always going to go to the spleen. It has this gravitation always to the liver. I’m not exactly sure why. But its people need to know. And that was first established in 1928. Again, work at the University of Wisconsin, where Dr. LVM was part of the team that came up with that. And then another Dr. McHargue, a year later confirmed their findings. So it sounds like oh, it was a bunch of wackos. It was several notable people, notable people and it’s been replicated regularly right for me. But the thing is, people don’t know this, right? They don’t know that low copper in the diet is going to accumulate iron in the tissue. That’s important thing to note that as we age, there is this cumulate accumulative effect of copper or seeming iron billion or tissue and what’s going to happen? There’s going to be more oxidative stress as the iron builds. And the more rusting more of us why rusting the mitochondria are going to start to choke on all this iron, right? Because they don’t know what to do with it. All right, and the reason why we talk about doing the blood donations is to begin to offload that iron. So when you do a standard blood donation you’re going to use you’re going to fill a bag that can hold 500 milliliters of fluid and based on that saturation, right? This one is sensory. Without numbers, about half of that is going to be honored. So you’re going to get rid of 250 milligrams of iron. Right? I’m gonna do a lot of donuts.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right to get a wonder in your math formula, though, if you are, I mean, all things created equal, which we have negative regulators and lack of positive regulators. But could you do 24 times 365? Given that you need 24 units of iron to recycle the 24-hour supply of red blood cells? Is that a fair equation or not necessarily?   Morley Robbins: I’ve thought about it. Yeah, I don’t know what to do with that right equation.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? So what we’re basically saying is 24 milligrams are needed. 25 milligrams of iron is needed to do the heavy lifting of recycling all the 2.5 million red blood pulp cells per second times 60 times 60 times 24, you only need 24 milligrams of iron to do that. Right? It is amazing in and of itself.   Morley Robbins: It says The thing is, what, according to the great clinicians and scientists back in the 20s, you know, what did they know? Right? But, back in the day, they were measuring the amount of iron that the mom donates to the baby. And the amount of copper, then the amount of damage to the baby. So certainly, Joe and I are healthy, we have livers that have about seven milligrams of copper. And when we were born, it was 70 milligrams of copper in our liver, a carrot, or a cup of coffee cover, right? And that’s a huge bolus of copper right? Now for healthy, we have about 100 milligrams of copper. So let’s talk about the iron side, right? Iron, the donation of iron from balm is supposed to be about 450 milligrams of iron for right. So 450 versus 70. Right? So it’s about six times more iron. But now, I’m, you know, that 25,000 milligrams, and 100 milligrams of copper if I’m lucky that the ratio is way out of whack. Right, right. And so don’t want to stick in about this. Right now. I was thinking about this constant process of adding iron to the food system through the supplements that we’re taking, and all the other variations. And where’s the first copper supplementation? Where’s the copper fortification? Yeah, it’s just it doesn’t even exist, except in some of the supplements that you can find. And no one’s aware of the order of magnitude of distortion that we started out with 450 Iron 770 comp.   Dr. Joel Rosen: 6161. Do you think that’s the maybe that’s ideal ratio that if you speculate that’s what we’re endowed with, that’s what optimally would be throughout our life cycle?   Morley Robbins: When we’ve done 3600 milligrams.   Morley Robbins & Dr. Joel Rosen: of iron? Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Just for collapse, right?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, there definitely would be eating. What Joel was getting to is something that I’ve been thinking about in the last probably a year, year and a half, given the power and the importance of other recycling systems. It’s really important here is that I think the numbers as you’re, as you’re coming to two pieces together the way I have, I think the numbers for iron could be dramatically less. And when you get into the research that was done the in the 30s, especially the amount of copper that was in our blood was much higher, or we consider 100 is healthy now that we’re seeing people with 151, at much, much, much higher. That wasn’t because of inflammation. It was just higher levels of blood. Right. So it’s just the numbers have gotten distorted over the.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Serum iron. Exactly. ceremony, which is 1%. Right, right. Yeah. Right. Interesting. So I’m all over the place here with my questions, because it’s kind of coming to me No. So so. So one of the things on the Start list is magnesium, and I had a q&a with my group that I worked with today. And they asked me a question about transdermal magnesium. I said, Well, you know, I actually know Morley, I’m going to talk to him and ask him, so between ingested malleolar glycinate or topical magnesium is one of the uses of water or magnesium water or salts, right flakes? Is there the question I had from one of my patients was, is it feasible to get through food It’s and through just the topical without having to do the ingestion of the mallet and the glycinate? Have you seen that historically or anecdotally?   Morley Robbins: Intriguing. I don’t know that I’ve seen it a lot. I think when I encourage people to do this get as many varied forms of magnesium as they can, right? So we’ve got magnesium water, and the use of bicarbonate would probably be the use. If you really, if you’re not willing to make it for yourself.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Those are the hydrogen waters. Is that what that is? Have you seen those?   Morley Robbins: Well, I have seen them. I think there were.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Magnesium. And there are no, I don’t know that that was one of the active ingredients.   Morley Robbins: I don’t know about that particular don’t but go to a Polish supermarket. They sell Polish water. Poland has the highest concentration of magnesium on the planet. God knows why. But, the magnesium impulse water is amazing. So magnesium water, transdermal, if you can go to the ocean, or if you can get some Epsom salts or transdermal it’s a great way and the absorption through the skin is very powerful. The third form is dietary, again, anything that’s green, is supposed to have magnesium, right, does it? I don’t know, right? There are some really interesting things that are taking place. So I was crushed when I was talking to a supermarket executive years ago, talking about how the broccoli looked so green. And he said, Do you know how they make it green like that? And I braced myself for impact. They use nitric oxide, they force the color I don’t know, I didn’t have the presence of mine was kind of in freefall. But it’s like, oh my gosh, they’re engineering the color, not to magnesium, but to other viewers. So it just raises all sorts of questions how much magnesium is, the product for you? Right? Because if it’s not in the soil, it’s not going to get on the planet, right? So again, wherever possible, find organic food raised by responsible farmers, right? And that was never down to supplements. And I think we live in a world now where there’s so much stress, both acute and chronic. I don’t think we can afford not to supplement right with the mineral that’s the chill pill.   Dr. Joel Rosen: right? However, there you do put in your protocol. And I want a little more clarification from you that some people will need to have the cocktail loaded first. So maybe describe that if people have been taking magnesium, and they he hit an upper lip limit bowel intolerance is frequent, but more importantly, just doesn’t seem to be the chill pill. Right? What’s going on? What’s going on there?   Morley Robbins: What happens is the adrenal glands, which are sitting on top of our kidneys, so adrenal means add renal on top of that kidney. The adrenal glands are very sensitive to minerals, especially sodium and magnesium. And it’s the ratio so do we make these a tic tac toe? how healthy they are. And you start pumping in a lot of magnesium to someone who has been under a lot of stress, or what you’re going to do is if sodium was here, and you start increasing magnesium, you’re going to tank their adrenals. And their energy is going to plumb it. Right. Right. And so what do we encourage people to do, who did stress cadets, or live that lifestyle? They want to take the adrenal cocktail, which has sodium potassium the vitamin C, to support and nourish the adrenal glands, so that when you then begin to introduce magnesium, you’re not going to overwhelm them, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there’s an art to it. I mean, I love the idea of following the stops. Yeah, it makes sense. Like just stop these things. And some of them were hard for me because I was a practitioner that recommended some of these things. Sure. I recommended molybdenum a lot of the time for sulfites that have that Su ox enzyme that isn’t working effectively and molybdenum is the cofactor. So you can help too, again, I know where you’re going with this if, if bioavailable copper is working effectively, everything’s energetically based. That’s what I love about the concept of the RCP because you’re not down 10 streams down the road, worrying about stopping molybdenum because it was such a good tool in my toolkit to clear out the sulfites. Now, I’m not creating as much blockage of that enzyme that typically anything that’s inflammatory is going to inhibit Its enzymes. Right, so now I don’t have to worry about speeding it up because I’m speeding it up naturally by removing the thing that’s slowing it down. Exactly. Right. So a lot of the pins will get knocked down as you said with these other responders. These are the people that do fantastic. And you see them all the time. Yeah. And you hear about them all the time. Right? Right. But then there are the nonresponders where there are just the stress cadets like you’ve said, and they have to nuance it, where don’t just follow it, where you take all these things in phase one, and magnesium is in phase one, and you’re not doing well, you got to go methodically through these and be able to understand why and what and I guess, what’s the art of what you’re seeing in that?   Morley Robbins: And, no, I think it’s an important point. To me, the most important variable in this process with the RCP is doing the individual believes in their body’s natural ability to heal itself. If they have dealt? And a lot of people have been chronically ill for years, right? So they do have doubts, right? They’ve been given a lot of pain, a lot of discomforts, a lot of disorientation. And they have conditioned themselves that my body is broken, right? There’s a level of fear there. And they met too many practitioners,, my course record with a client was 99, 9999 doctors, right? And when she started the RCEP, everything fell into place. That was a one-a-lifetime shot.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Was there a big fear? The opponent was an   Morley Robbins: Issue, right? She’d been told she was anemic. Right? So. So once you get the right nutrients, and the body knows what to do. Right. But the thing is, very often when I’m working with people, and they’re doing the protocol, fallen facilities, and they plateau. There are only two questions I ask them. Because what we’ve learned about the RCEP, is it does work. What does the RCEP do? It isn’t just making energy, it’s mobilizing iron, right? It will guarantee, you start introducing vital copper to the body, the body will respond accordingly and it will release iron. And so the two questions I asked are, have you donated blood? And have you dumped yours?   Dr. Joel Rosen: fears? Right, let’s go dump your blood and fears at the same time. Exactly.   Morley Robbins: Yeah. And so it’s not to, in any way, dismiss the fact that there are nonresponders, there are people who have genetic morphisms all these other things that we have to be sensitive to. But for the most part, people seem to be responding. And once they’ve cleared that iron overload and they’ve dealt with emotional issues, the body begins to respond accordingly. Right, I can begin to make the adaptations. right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I guess one of the things we talked about is a good college friend that you have that follows it to the tee, and we talked about how when the iron gets stuck in your integral sites, then you have your four challenges of getting iron out and histamine emotions and parasites. Right. But not just parasites, I would imagine that iron is food for for for all pathogens, right? For the parasites the high is better, right? And they’re generational, right but with that being said, one of the clinical tools I was mentioning to you is I’ve done many times where I’ll do organic acid tests, which is a urine test that’s looking at systemic microbes, right and it’s being cleared through the kidneys. So when we talk about mucosal lining, we’re not just talking about a stool test that would be looking at the lower coal and we’re looking at mucous membranes in the sinuses in the bronchial in the respiratory in the Gemma the urinal in the kidney and female reproductive and the.   Morley Robbins: liver. There’s not a science tissue in the liver. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So, so one of the things that I would say, and I suggest that to you as a clinical Pearl, this is just, I think, just showing off a little bit, but yeah, I think one of the things about that is what we’ve suggested is doing the nebulizers, Yes, and you could nebulize with disinfectants, there’s a really gentle HCL blend, or even a glutathione blend, or anything that even saline I would imagine would be anti-microbial, and that can really attack some of the nonresponders that aren’t getting. You’re not evicting the unwanted poachers from your body. completely by doing Gi programs.   Morley Robbins: Right? I’ve talked to so many clients, and I’m sure you’ve experienced it as well. And I’ll bring up the term parasite. I had, I had a test, right? And I said You know what, that was a stool test. Right? Who’s doing a systemic? Right? That’s the challenge is getting people to realize that the parasites community.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It comes down to the same argument again, with looking in the ocean. Right. And, you know, one of the studies that nailed it for me was, I can’t, I don’t have the photographic memory that you do. But it was a study on autistic children. And they did hair samples, and the ones that had more heavy metals in their hair, were they from the autistic cohort? Or were they from the nonautistic, they were from the nonautistic. And the reason that is is that they’re getting the heavy metals expressed. So if you take that mentality of, well, I did a hair sample and there were no metals in there, then just because it’s not coming out doesn’t mean it’s not in there. Absolutely. Right. And I think that’s a major mistake. A lot of people, unfortunately, make.   Morley Robbins: Yeah, people don’t know how to properly interpret the hair test. Right? If it’s slow, they think it’s safe, right? That’s not always the case. Right? Especially with the heavy bottles, right? But the important thing is for people to realize that the minerals can be tested. You can use the hair test, you can use a blood test. I’ve never done minerals in urine, but I know some practitioners do that extensively. But we’re looking at a completely different way to interpret it. Because it’s its minerals coming out, well, are they coming out the right way? And that’s where that’s the nuance is understanding. Under what conditions is it coming out?   Dr. Joel Rose: Yeah, I think there’s there’s an evolution of the practitioner to in terms of they test what they know. Right, right. Like, looking back 10 years ago, I did a lot of food sensitivity testing and micronutrient testing. And I would just reduce, at sickly say, Okay, you’re sensitive to this food, let’s remove it, you have these micronutrient deficiencies, let’s improve it. However, once you start to, let’s just say put the Pentium chip in the computer and generate energy, then you’re not making massive amounts of histamine that’s taking a flame thrower to the GI tract that’s causing the effect of food sensitivities. So you’re getting to quote unquote, the root cause? Yeah, you’re right, you’re allowing.   Morley Robbins: The body naturally energizes itself, and can bring itself back into balance.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So what’s next morally? What’s next I know, I’m privileged, because potentially, I’ll be seeing a lot more of you in the area. Yeah, I know, you went on this, what did you call it? We called it not a sort of stripped-down sabbatical. So about a strategic sabbatical. strategics.   Morley Robbins: Okay.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And I’m getting more emails now than I had in the past because I think you’re back on the research of articles. But are there any directions that you want to go? Or what’s left still on the to-do list? No, it’s   Morley Robbins: It’s a great question. I think the big macro question is, what can we do to D iron the body faster? And what can we do to recover, and recuperate the body? And I think it’s so important for people to realize that there are mechanisms, but there’s no operating manual. There’s no, you know, there’s no book that we can go through it says, Well, this is how you do it. Right. We’re making this up as we go along. And federalism, obviously, in the Florida area where me, we’ve probably met with seminary practitioners since we’ve been here system. This is a hotbed of switched-on, folks, many of most of whom almost all of them are aware of, or becoming aware of this guy is probably one of the most proficient in terms of his not just his understanding, but his application of his understanding. I’m very grateful for you but the thing is, more and more people are more and more practitioners are coming to realize that this is a piece of the puzzle that they’ve not known about. Right. And it just presents a foundational component. I think that the real dream is saying what’s next. It’s how do we do and how do we recover? But Joe referred to the Pentium chip. We would love to see the RCEP become this Pentium chip and practitioners practice, right that it becomes just a natural part of By working with the clients with the patients, that they understand what to avoid them saying what to do, and then begin to address the problems that are beyond the RCP get to that nonresponding component, right? So that they can begin to clear the foundation of the problem so that the body can naturally take care of itself. Right. Right, and begin to move into the more challenging issues.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And I would say you’ll probably get started with more of the alternative practitioners first. But I think once you get into the best one would be the OB G’s and fertility doctors, especially with the research that you’re sending me, can you believe how much retinol and copper is going on in the placenta? And how genes are orchestrated to be able to infuse that because it’s such a metabolically necessary active tissue? I mean, that’s us, our model for if that’s what that demands, then every single cell organ tissue, and system in the body demands that as well. And changing and pushing over the sacred cows of those highly guarded professions of vitamin A is toxic copper toxicity. It can Oh, it’s amazing that with that advice, there aren’t more challenges than there are.   Morley Robbins: No Well, one of our dear friends is Martha Carlin. She’s she calls herself a citizen scientist, right? And she’s been through the program. She’s a graduate of the ICPC Institute. And she came across some amazing research, especially today, but this one, that she found that I don’t think I sent it to you yet. It implies that copper is what can create a double helix, just by its very presence was like, wait a minute, does that mean the copper needs to be there to make DNA, it was implying that the copper was almost instrumental in creating the energy that allows the DNA to twirl?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, that’s how you describe the rotary as well.   Morley Robbins: Right? Exactly. Yeah. So it’s just, there’s so much that we don’t know.   Dr. Joel Rosen: cardiologists, right? At different key genes that we were talking about with that.   Morley Robbins: Absolutely. The defects from a copper-deficient heart, right? So it’s just, there’s so much that we’re piecing together. But at the end of the day, it’s wonderful to know all this, the real subtle actions and reactions of copper, but at the end of the day, we need to figure out how we get it back into someone’s body, right, and make sure that it’s bioavailable, right, that it can begin to run the engine that it’s designed, naturally, to run our mind.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Also, to follow up on that, so you get the practitioners that graduated from the RCP. And now, and they’re not only as you mentioned, they’re the practitioners like me, but they’re also the one that knows, like you and Martha that had a loved one that they want to be able to help and support. But at the same time, how do they make a uniform if I go to Istanbul, or if I go to Moscow, or if I go to Bangkok? Not that I would ever go to McDonald’s, but I would go to the McDonald’s and they would have the fries and they would be the same no matter what country I’m in. How do we get that for anyone that is, is RCEP aware that they can add their flair to how they practice and what their philosophy is, and what they excel in, that it’s going to be completely no two snowflakes are the same? Right. But yet, they have a standardized, objective, consistent message that they have as foundational tenants that the RCP has created for them to be able to employ in whether they decide to consult one on one or not. But they have that toolkit to be able to just turn key it pardon me to do how they want to do it.   Morley Robbins: No, I think that’s a critical step how do we get this so that it can just really be this modular? It’s I’m not sure what I don’t know if I have an analogy, but it’s like your view flow. It’s like what we can download programs. Right. And this process is this protocol would download in the practice, and it would completely change there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean, it does start with nowadays. I guess I did a lot of expensive testing, which I won’t do anymore, because all I need To start, quite frankly, we’re uncomfortable as if I have the full Monty, right, which is all of the how is the cell? How are the cells? respiring? And how is the oxidative? Are they oxygenating? Are they oxidizing? Right? That’s the term. And then from there, depending on my specific, unique practice, I could do a DNA test. And I was gonna mention that earlier when all of that negative regulation takes place, and your body isn’t able to make energy through recycling that ATP, or recycling that iron to make the red blood cells. That’s where I see these genes get turned on, so that they’re not able to recycle effectively, or they’re not able to convert beta carotene into vitamin A effectively. Because why I used the analogy this afternoon with my clients. Imagine me having a factory, and we produce a certain widget that’s very specialized, that is in demand that a lot of countries want and we export it to, but no one’s ordering them anymore. So all of a sudden, I’m going to shut that wing of the factory down and and keep what’s keeping the bread and butter and the lights on in the factory and not invest man dollars. how does that translate in our body? Is it genomically signal the turning on of jeans that were meant to recycle effectively, that are no longer recycling? Absolutely. I mean, you helped me understand that morally. That was like, why am I seeing all these things? But then it’s because the body is so intelligent, like we said it stop asking, How can I overthrow the body and do what I want it to do? And instead of understanding what the body wants me to do.   Morley Robbins: Exactly, and it’s really, it revolves around. We live on a planet that has a lot of oxygen in the air. And we use that oxygen to make energy. But if the oxygen is not being used properly, if the oxygen is creating too much exhaust, that’s when everything begins to respond to that. And it’s all of the hormones, the neurotransmitters, and the neuro peptides are all oxygen sensors, what’s going on with oxygen? And that? I don’t know if there’s enough awareness about that, that if the oxygen is not being burned properly, being managed properly, being regulated properly, it’s going to create all manner of dysfunction.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think the Denon Harmon theory of free radicals, I think that it was very important to blow off exhaust so that you can temporarily shift the day jobs to the defense mode exam, but then get out of that exam. And the problem is we’re never getting out of that.   Morley Robbins: Yeah. All right. Yeah. The sympathetic nervous system is going to have a different response to oxidative stress than the parasympathetic, just completely different. Right. And most people are stuck in sympathy. They’re just in constant fight-or-flight mode. And that has a, you can’t metabolize your environment when you’re in sympathetic overdrive. That’s a basic neurological fact. And I think that needs to be understood. What is it doing? Not just energy production, but exhaust generation?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I don’t remember who I heard say it. But there was a concern. I don’t know if you agree with this. There was a concern back in the day that taking too many antioxidants doesn’t allow it, there are studies I’m sure that you’ve seen. Too many antioxidants were life-shortening verses. But I don’t know if it’s safe to say that now because we have so much more free radicals that are being made, or we have so much less bioavailable copper and so much more iron, that so much more exhaust is coming that you’re putting a chair off the Titanic when you’re doing an antioxidant approach.   Morley Robbins: And so much of the focus in that research was around nutrient antioxidants. They didn’t get the enzyme, right, endogenous dyes, are just naturally occurring antioxidants, right? And people don’t. People don’t realize that those studies were gamed, and I don’t think they were truly representative of the whole spectrum game study. Yeah, no, no, but they weren’t representative of the full spectrum of capacity, right, that we have in our body.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So So just in parting, one of the things I proposed morally and we can kind of maybe put it out there and put him on the spot so that I have it on camera. The name of the lights that I have in the back is called the truth about your health. And it’s weird to have you sitting here because it’s surreal. I don’t know why I came up with it, but it just was one of those things where the truth about health resonated with me. And I think by elucidating, the importance of turning over 2.5 billion red blood cells, million red blood cells per second. And the importance of cellular respiration is really in line with the truth about your health. And what comes first? It’s foundational. The post New Research: Why Iron deficiency Anemia is a Fallacy and needs to be Abolished? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that we can get your health back quickly. And Part Four really with a mentor, a friend, a colleague, and someone that I re proud to say, I know Morley Robbins. He’s the Creator if you don’t know by now, of the root cause protocol and magnesium advocacy group. And Morley is just always digging down deeper into the rabbit holes. And I got a text from him the other day telling me that we’re not only overdue for a chat, but he wants to tell me all about her side and how it’s causing utter chaos in the recycling system of the cells. And it’s too good to turn down. So here we are today, Morley. Thanks for joining us today. I appreciate your time.   Morley Robbins: Absolutely. Yeah. No pleasure to be here. And I think, the triad of what creates metabolic confusion would be iron. uric acid, and, and upside, I can’t think of three factors that have more impact on messing up our Mother Nature-driven physiology, which just seems to be disappearing by the minute. But again, we’ve talked at length about the copper-iron dynamic. And just before we went live here, we were chatting a little bit about uric acid, which we can come back to. I think that uric acid is a stealth metabolite that’s playing in the background of all chronic diseases 100% of it. And there are all sorts of confusion about it being an antioxidant, or prooxidant. Is it? Is it in? Is it a result of our diet as a result of our lifestyle? We can have some really interesting discussions about that. But the thing about the upside is, again, it’s billed as the iron hormone. I’m not, I’m not convinced that. Well, I think what’s important to realize is that it’s a negative regulator, as opposed to a positive regulator. A negative regulator would well let’s flip it around, the positive regulator would be like your mother in the home, regulating the functions of activity, making sure that kids are getting their homework done. You know, all the daily chores are getting done, people are getting fed, what have you. That’s positive regulation. Negative regulation would be relying on the police to control the chaos in the home. That’s a negative regulator. And that’s pretty much the way it works in our tissue is that copper is the positive regulator of iron. That’s very well established. Good going back to 1928 with heart steenbok, Waddell, and LVM, you know, all the way to 2021, with Kim and Gonzales saying, Yeah, if copper is missing iron is going to get out of control, especially in the liver. And what appears to be the case is that when copper is deficient, the body has a backup plan. That’s called this negative regulator upside. And what causes so many of problems for people is when they get a blood test, it can be misinterpreted, the blood that the iron levels in the blood can look low. And the practitioner interprets that as being well which means you have low iron, and in the tissue, below iron in the blood and ine tissue are completely different media. And, and that’s the reoneering work of Bruce Ames back in 2004, who was able to prove that there’s 10 times more iron in the tissue that is in the blood. But if it looks low in the blood, a lot of practitioners will make a knee-jerk decision to encourage supplementation or even encouraged infusions, which are, I think, I think they’re baison to the body. We can talk more about that. But the very presence of iron supplementation triggers the upside. And what hip site does is it shuts down the iron recycling program. And its target is the thorough report and pathway. The job wasn’t being an iron doorway, Ferro important. And what it does is it causes an internalization of that pathway and its degradation. So the cell, especially the macrophage, loses the natural ability to allow for iron egress, so that recycling of the iron can continue. Because what’s playing in the background of everyone’s body is the need to turn over two and a half million red blood cells every second. That’s a big deal. Two and a half million, we’ve been talking now for about 15 minutes and time 60, right, times two and a half million. So we’ve been working pretty hard to replace our blood ovover4 hours. It’s a ridiculous number, several billion red blood cells. But what’s fascinating about that, is it only takes 25 milligrams of iron to support the replacement of 24 hours of red blood cells. So absolutely amazed, 25 milligrams is nothing. And even more amazing is that 24 of those 25 milligrams of iron come from the recycling system. That’s dependent upon the iron circulation, the iron recycling, that’s dependent upon the Federal Court doorway is open. And to keep it open, you need to have a Ferro oxidase enzyme function that’s provided by Cirilo plasmons. But in this case, it would be a fest named after Festus in the mythology of the forge, the iron Forge, but the point is, when that ferroxidase is not present, it upside and comes in, and bauts down the pathway. And the way I’ve characterized your works with guys, that doesn’t necessarily work with women, but guys who, who know football, know what the linebackers job is, shut down the play. No, no one did it better than Dick buck in the Chicago Bears. Well, that’s a negative regular, he’s shutting down the play. As opposed to the positive Edgar would be a quarterback. And no better quarterback than Tom Brady. Whether you like him or not, he’s considered the best quarterback of all time. But here’s the positive regulator. See, so basically, you’ve got the body as a positive regulator, and a negative regulator. According to the research, of Rao, or EO and ready from, I think it was 1996. ItThey assertedhat copper deficiency created the creation of upside. It’s a, it’s a response to copper status in the body. And so a lot of confusion about it. But what makes it even worse, is that there are stimulants and suppressors in our diet that will influence hep Seitens activity. A great suppressor is vitamin D. So again, as if there wasn’t enough confusion about vitamin D, now we find out that it suppresses the level of hip sight. Well, does that sound like a good idea? If the body thinks it needs hip Sidon, and you’re suppressing it? Wow, that’s quite a development. And so, depending upon the food component, you know, sugar and fructose have a completely different effect on the hip side. And so it’s just we are in this tennis match between what’s stimulating it, what’s suppressing it. And, what I decided in my webinar, took the stance that women that were falling, are falling into the trap of good cholesterol, the bad cholesterol. And what stops the rise of cholesterol is copper. Are we stimulating capsid and suppressing it? Why don’t we just avoid its need, and just focus on copper? And I think it just becomes another example of the genius of the body to use this. under appreciated mineral, it’s the Achilles heel of our physiology and allows it to regulate the result. cleaned up by him. And then we don’t have to worry about the website. And it’s re’s being billed now, by the hematologist as an iron hormone, regulating iron. And I’m just like, that’s a, hat’s a real stretch. It just doesn’t buy it as a classification, because of the primal role that bioavailable copper plays in regulating iron in our bodies.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So lots of notes here, lots of notes here, because I’m glad and excited to unpack everything that you said there. And I mean, I’m thinking about it, even from my standpoint, okay, there are some confusions that I have. But then if I’m thinking about it from the standpoint of a person that doesn’t know all the x, y’s, and Z’s if we can break that down to them a little bit more succinctly. So obviously, we’ve talked about the challenge that at the end of the day, if you’re exhausted and you’re tired, and you’re burnt out, you have some assumed guilty until proven otherwise, which would be guilty, problems with the way your body hot potatoes, the regulation of iron, and how it binds to oxygen, and how it makes energy. And I always say, if you’re not using oxygen for you, you’re using it against you. And instead of getting an income, you’re getting an expense, right? We’ve talked about that in the past. And you’ve also expressed that 95% or more of your, of your hemoglobin or your irons is recycled. Whereas one milligram ideally, or up to 5% of your iron stores are from your food intake, and the body is demanded to recycle that iron. And there are positive and negative regulators to that, morally, just as an aside, one of the ways that I initially found you was by doing a lot of genomic test interpretations. And I’ll agree that what we’re talking about today takes precedence over genetics. However, I do find that if there are weakened abilities in certain areas, these people are more susceptible to these challenges. I do see a lot of polymorphisms in the TMP RSS 5656, which it plays a critical role in the upside. And so maybe back us up a bit one more time, if you will, just more so for me, and the listeners get a benefit because I’m not clear on it. Where hep, Sidon is the linebacker, and it is the negative regulator. So if there’s not enough iron, or sorry, not enough copper, to help drive that recycling ability of all these enzymes that help export and move iron out of tissues, then it will shut down the play. But if it can’t shut down the play what happens or maybe kind of go from there?   Morley Robbins: Right? So who’s the battery pack on TMP? So six or whatever, you know.   Dr. Joel Rosen: right? What is it, Marta? It says here, Marta paste, two, is that a Matri? Paste or two?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, Metro pays too right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s getting a little more sophisticated than I know. Sorry.   Morley Robbins: It was copper-dependent. Right. Okay. So again, all of these polymorphisms, I would argue, are reflections of copper deficiency. And if we go back to our first discussion, before we started this dialogue, I was sharing with you that there’s iron building up in the nucleus in the nucleolus. That’s supposed to be regulated by another copper-dependent enzyme called ferrets and heavy chain requires Darrell oxidase. Again, we’re operating with a complete understanding of how copper regulates iron. And so I hear you loud and clear about the polymorphism. But I would argue that the real origin of the problem I wondering if, if that mechanism isn’t being triggered, because there isn’t adequate copper to open up the federal port doorway. That would be to me there’s like a hierarchy and as you’re talking about income and expense, if the expense starts going up inside the cell, well, then you’re going to trip that. Now, trip up We’re both struggling with the word, the PMP, our SS mechanism. I think that gets triggered by oxidative stress. Right? And so I’m a bit.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I am sorry to interrupt I am a big believer of when I do look at this genomics I’m more concerned about their subjective life, their stress, their exposures, all of the demands of life. However, I find it fascinating that there are certain, let’s call it checkpoints, or checks and balances, where you see more of these polymorphisms to compensate for that problem over here. What I’m, what I’m extrapolating is the fact that this person is going to be harder hit in this area along the recycling chain, if you will, or they’re gonna need more. So, I mean, it’s still RCEP driven. But I get a little more specific as to Hey, this is where the weak links in the chain are breaking sort of speak. But yeah.   Morley Robbins: And again, if in fact, relevant radio is right about the upside and being triggered by copper deficiency? Well, that means it’s being triggered by oxidative stress. Right. And so then, I would be wondering, what’s happening with uric acid in these bodies, is it building and at some level, it may not be classified as Hyperuricemia? But maybe it’s going up just enough to trigger another threshold of reaction that’s causing hip Sidon to fire off. And, again, hip Sidon is, to me, it’s a failsafe mechanism. It’s not a, let’s keep the body in a natural regulation. It’s, we have a, we have a problem. We’ve got building expenses, there’s exhaust, and we got to shut this thing down. And it’s a very powerful mechanism. And so you’ve I think that confusion is from the forces in our diet that can flip upside down in one way or the other. And that, and then that webinar I did a couple of weeks ago, there’s a very specific slide, right, where it’s very clearly indicating who’s increasing upside, whose decreasing or silencing upside. And I think, I think it’s important for people to know that there are components of our diet that can be very powerfully influential in the activity level of upside, that may be involved in these polymorphisms as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Okay. So just the end just to so that I’m completely clear on it. If capsid is working effectively, then it’s needed because wcan’tto recycle the iron our recycle and make him and, and make the metabolic energy production that we need what happens as a consequence, is iron gets stuck in tissues, continued ox hydroxyl radicals, like, what’s going on there, when it’s not being when it’s not shutting down, effectively, you’re   Morley Robbins: Going to you’re going to lose energy. As iron builds in the tissue, especially in the mitochondria, you’re going to have a massive loss of energy. When that takes place, then you’ve now you’ve affected the whole process of recycling calcium and recycling the iron and recycling a nseveraltabolites, it’s gonna affect protein metabolism, because nitrogen is not going to be recycled properly, because of the change in urea recycling, but then we’ve got the added impact of iron interacting with the oxygen, oxidative stress is going to go up, well, then you’ve got a greater chance for lipid peroxidation. And then a greater chance for DNA defects and other breakdowns in the cell. And then you stand the chance of either apoptosis or ferroptosis. Which is this arc, clean, desperate this still it’s the death of the cell because it was taking place inside the tissue or the cellular structure. So the thing is, as soon as you’ve got this dysregulation, of iron, it begins to have a compound effect with its interaction with not just the oxygen, but the effect of the oxidant on the DNA, the lipids, and the proteins. Right, right. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So so as far as an I’m just thinking of how to put this all together. So you mentionet the metabolic confusion and talking about the hip side and the iron and the uric acid. And now we sort of brought in vitamin D in that component too. I guess where do you want to go from here? Morally? What’s the natural next thing to talk about?   Morley Robbins: Well, we just add, I’m looking into, you know, can we easily measure hip, Sidon, and uric acid? As components? I know we can. Is it? Is it cost prohibitive? I don’t know, I’m gonna be having some discussions with the lab about that. But I think it’s what is important is to raise people’s awareness about this dynamic, that it’s contributing to the confusion about iron. That may be, again, when Iron starts to get locked up in the tissue. That’s anemia of chronic inflammation. That is not an AMI of iron deficiency. Yeah, it’s low in the blood, I get that. But there’s no easy way to measure iron in the tissue, other than a needle biopsy, or Tesla two MRIs. Both of these are doable, but they’re not convenient. They’re not. And they’re not exactly cheap, either. But the thing is, I think there needs to be greater awareness about the recycling program, the fact that it can be affected by hip Sidon, the fact that hip side is influenced by copper status, and that this dynamic of slowing down the recycling system causes what’s called chronic inflammation. What’s the biggest stimulant for chronic inflammation, uric acid, if you want to, if you want to introduce inflammation into the tissue, expose it to uric acid, and it’s an absolute lock. And what’s uric acid tied to you know, all forms of metabolic syndrome, all heart disease, diabetes, neurodegeneration, cancer is now being classified as an extension of uric acid. So I think it’s important for people to realize that inflammation is not our friend. And it’s leading to dysregulation of iron that is showing up as low iron in the blood, and is leading to incorrect direct recommendations to either supplement or infuse iron, which I’m just vehemently opposed to. It doesn’t make sense. So I think in light of that, it’s good to raise awareness. Maybe we just make a pivot and go down that bunny trail of vitamin D having that impact on the upside. Maybe we should revisit this vitamin D thiin. And now we’ve got added impetus to at least question the narrative about vitamin D. I was reading an interesting article. Earlier this week, there was talking about the recognized antagonism between vitamin A and vitamin D. And it was relating to I’m gonna get it was related to CD 36, I believe, and another CD, and I’m blanking on the number, I apologize for that. But the point it was raising is that there’s a natural antagonism between those two metabolites. So that’s been my position all along, is that I’m not opposed to vitamin D. I know it’s important. It’s relative to everything else. And what I’m vehemently opposed to, is this idea that everyone’s vitamin D deficient, because people don’t know how vitamin D is made. And people don’t seem to understand the difference between storage D and activity. So I came up with an analogy recently. Storage D is a parked car. It’s a storage metabolite. It’s not supposed to be in our blood. It was supposed to be in the liver for heaven’s sake. And so what is active D? Well, that’s a car on the autobahn. And what do you do when you’re on the autobahn? Did you get to have a driver? That’s VDR. And you got to have a navigator. And that’s our XR. And what’s important for people to know is it. There are all sorts of accolades being assigned to vitamin D. But it’s not being assigned to the parking park cars. It’s being assigned to the car horses that are on the autobahn. They’re active. They’ve got VDR. They’ve got arcs are, well, how do you get VDR? You better have extra magnesium. And how do you get arcs are you better have retinol. And people don’t realize that it’s a triad that stimulates our immune system. It is not storage D, the parked car, it’s the act of D on the autobahn. And what people are failing to recognize is that active D is static and does very little variation of levels of activity in our body. Storage D fluctuates with the season. We’re entering the winter season where there’s not as much light except for you smart people down in Florida. But when there’s less light, what happens storage D goes down. Why? Because the body says we don’t want to block that light. During the summer. There’s more sunlight, lots more sunlight. And what happens is storage D goes up. Why? Because it’s blocking the sunlight. Storage D, the parked car is sunglasses. And people can’t seem to understand the role that storage D has, which is very different than the role of active D. And what’s happened? My theory is that they’ve transposed the accolades that should be assigned to active D which has never been measured by practitioners. They’ve transposed it to storage D and the storage D is blocking the uptake of vitamin A. And, and we can have a very rousing conversation about why Retinol is important. And what I do, as you will knowbyof our conversations, I, I put everything into an energy time, energy, a paradigm is this metabolite increasing energy in our body. Guess what the role of Vitamin D is relative to energy production. There isn’t one, there is no function, the Vitamin D plays to increase energy by vitamin A completely different vitamin A. According to Hambling 2016. There is something there’s a mechanism there’s a four-part mechanism that resides between complex three and complex for the mitochondria. And it’s called the signal. And the signal ism is where electrons move from complex very to complex and the electrons ride the carbon tail of retinol to get from three to four. And if Retinol is not present, what happens? It’s called the Warburg effect. And what is the Warburg effect? It’s where the body stops using oxygen to metabolize fuel, and goes anaerobic and ferments fuel. Fermentation, as you well know, is producing two units of energy. When in fact, when you oxidize sugars, you’re going to get 34 ATP, and the oxidized fats, you’re going to get 140 were designed to burn fat. That’y the preferred fuel. And if Retinol is not in our diet, and it’s not in our mitochondria, we’re not going to move the electrons as efficiently. When did they first identify retinol deficiency as the cause of cancer? Montrose T burrows 1925 And he had four articles in 1926. And other scientists have made that assertion what’s the cutting-edge treatment for cancer today? Iron chelation therapy coupled with retinol therapy. Interesting. Let’s get rid of that Warburg effect. What else does vitamin A do? It’y critical for the microbiome. For the proper balance of good guys and bad guys. People don’t realize that retinol has a completely suppressive effect on E. coli And so So my point is, we could go on for an hour talking about all the things that retinol does. But I think it’s important for people to realize that increased focus and intake of vitamin D suppresses the uptake of vitamin A. And we live in a kind of this mono-focus world in that I can only think about one thing at a time. So people worry about their health, and they think they need more vitamin D. They’re not thinking about the dynamic interplay between the metabolites, they’re not thinking about the reason why the vitamin D may be low, which is debatable, because the range, the reference range of 30 to 100, is the creation of one person, Michael Holick, up at Boston University. But the point is, in toke them, storage D, the parked car, you got to have magnesium, working with an enzyme found in the liver. And if magnesium isn’t present at optimal levels, enzymes aren’t going to function properly. Well, what would cause magnesium to not be present enough in the liver, is the buildup of iron, it’s a known fact that iron will cause magnesium Ross and the liver. Well, what causes iron to build up in the liver? Well, it’s back to heart steam back with LLVM 1920. Deny an animal copper, and iron will rise in its liver, and it will also rise in its spleen. They just zeroed in on the liver, it turns out that the spleen is probably a bigger storage depot for iron than even the liver is. But it’s all of this is a far cry from what people think, Oh, I’ve got to get vitamin D to build up my immune system. And what does the literature say? It suppresses the immune system, it doesn’t stimulate it. And what does vitamin A do? It Downregulates the immune system, and suppressing the immune system is not a good thing. And I’m afraid what we’re going to find downstream, we’re beginning to see evidence of it now. But I think it’s gonna get worse. Over the next couple of years. I think we’re going to witness as a result of the overriding focus on vitamin D. We are going to the impact that has on retinol in the body, I think we’re gonna witness an alarming rise in cancer around the planet, and we’re beginning to see evidence of it. I think it’s gonna get a lot worse over the next two to three years. And again, the part that everyone should question is, when conventional doctors and alternative doctors are both recommending the same thing. People should stop and say, Wait a minute, that doesn’t make sense to me. And they didn’t do that. And so there’s a lot, of research out there. That clerelates vitamin D status to some health outcomes. Well, you know, as well, as I knew that, that correlation is not causation. Do flies cause garbage? No, do firemen cause fires? No. But they certainly seem to be there, when there’s garbage and fire. And it’s just the confusion about how these variables show up at the same time, but they’re not causal. And I just, think that my whole stance on vitamin D goes back to 2010 when I met a very important figure, Dr. Kumerow Fedco, a famous lipid biologist at the University of Illinois, downstate Illinois, Champaign Urbana. He was 98 years old when I met him. Just a luminary and we’re having lunch in his home. He’s telling me about this famous speech that he gave at a conference international conference in the 80s. Just as vitamin D was becoming popular, and he told people based on a decade of research with pigs, he told people, Ladies Gentlemen, you do not supplement with vitamin D says it’s not advised. And you can imagine the pushback that took place. And I asked him, I said, Dr. Kimbrough, what happened as a result of that Speech. Again, you got a picture of this guy as he was bigger than I am. He’s like six, two, very, very vital. the twinkle in his eye. He leans forward, he says, well, Morley, I’m the only one left standing. All the others are dead. So he was a geek and he lived to be 102 and died near his second birthday, right after his second birthday. But the thing is, this is a very disruptive message in an era where people are freaked out about this condition that everyone’s worrying about. And I haven’t backed down one iota. I think that vitamin D is D stands for deception. The D stands for disinformation, the D stands for dysfunction inside the body, and the D stands for For dysregulation of retinol metabolism. And it’s just it’s not a popular stance, people find it almost offensive. But I’ve read a few articles. And there’s compelling evidence that there’s way more to the story than what Dr. Holick is trying to convince the world. And I wasn’t at all convinced by what emerged with COVID. And I think the dynamic with COVID. And vitamin D, is what it did, to hip sight. And somehow that mechanism of shutting down hip Sidon, I think prevented the iron release that was meant to take place. And again, it starts to get into some pretty esoteric physiology, that I think it’s beyond both our pay grades. But I think that’s the mechanism that makes the most sense to me that the other side of it that I should point out. I think I did share this webinar, people need to know that there’s a day identical structure between COVID SPIKE protein and hip side. That’s a real nerve, a lot of people. And if that’s the case, well, then it would make sense that vitamin D would shut that down. But what you need to understand is that the hip side is a byproduct of copper deficiency, well, there’s a whole nother way to solve that problem. And to drown yourself in vitamin D, which is going to affect retinol, which is going to affect the bioavailability of your copper. So it’s just a completely different paradigm of, of logic, the different philosophy of how the body is run. And I think people need they just need to decide, do they believe that or not? And if they do, then adopt that philosophy, if they don’t move on? And do what both the conventional, and the alternatives are telling you to do, which should make you very nervous.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, there’s a lot there. Morally, I think I, you know, when you get information overload, if you go to like, I don’t do this, but if you went to the Cheesecake Factory, there’s, you know, 25 different pages, and there are 20 items on each page. I’m the type of person who as soon as I see one thing that I know that I want, I’ll get it, and I don’t read through all the other stuff. And I think I did that with vitamin A and vitamin D, as soon as I understood the idea and concept that storage D blocks absorption of a or too much D blocks absorption of a that doesn’t allow the act of D to get into the cell. I didn’t need any more information. I was ready to order what I wanted to order and I didn’t need to go through all the different pages if you will. Does that make   Morley Robbins: Sense? Well, it doesn’t make sense. And I think the problem that people have is they don’t know how important and powerful Retinol is in our immune system. They’ve been conditioned that vitamin D runs the immune system, and it doesn’t. And it’s it is an interplay between the two. And there’s a reason why our ancestors use cod liver oil relied on cod liver oil to stay healthy. And there’s a significant variation in the amount of retinol in cod liver oil to vitamin D, in some cases is 10 to one, the jigsaw brand, the Alaskan brand of Carnival is 20 to one it’s 20 times more retinol than in vitamin D and that product is like and there’s a reason why those Alaskan cod need that extra retinol. And it’s just people are not. They they have an incomplete understanding of the dynamic and they’re following one line of thought, and they’re not using their critical thinking skills to say, is there more to the story? And it takes time. And it is it takes energy to work through this. And as you say, decide, is this? Does this make sense to me? If it does then move on. And I think people are overly swayed by the groundswell of opinion. Well, when was the last time the majority made sense? I mean, really. And so I think it’s George Bernard Shaw, who said, All products, all progress in society is a function of people being unreasonable. And I’m unreasonable about this topic. And I think you are as well. And I appreciate your efforts to try to enlighten your clients and your followers because our lives are at stake, and our health and well-being are at stake. And I think it’s a tragedy, that we’re still arguing something doctor Kumerow tried to put to rest back in the 1980s. And here we are 40 years later, just as confused. And how long did it take us to solve the cholesterol? Did confusion take 65 years? So maybe we have another 25 years of this insanity?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, I, I still think about the in your carrier fatigue book about, maybe you can expand upon that where you had the, and again, I’ll tell my patients, just like you said earlier, I don’t have vitamin D is essential for the body, when we’re not talking about it in a storage form and making sure that your storage levels are super high. That’s we’re not talking about that. Act, if you want to get the active form of vitamin D into your cells, you need to decrease your storage form so that you increase your vitamin A to be able to get your act of D. So we both want your d to be working more effectively. You’re just yelling at the deaf person louder, and I’m just putting, you know, a hearing aid on him kind of thing. That’s the that’s the difference. Right? What is the four-year follow-up study? Maybe you could tell us about that. Because that doesn’t seem to get the recognition that the initial because it all sounds like it’s a flaw in the studies. design that is pointing to the fact Okay, vitamin D is good. Therefore, the causation of having storage D high must necessarily follow where it’s a corollary in terms. But what was the study that you were mentioning about how they never reported the four-year follow-up and found that I believe that it’s not so much that it low vitamin D storage for unhealthy and healthy people? It’s just that the unhealthy people have high video use active D versus the unhealthy cohorts. And it wasn’y reported. So everything hung on the initial study without the follow-up, something like that. Does that ring a bell for you?   Morley Robbins: It’s not as sharp as I want it to be. But absolutely. EMIC. And the thing is, there is a narrative. We know there’s a narrative in society now. And we’re all subject and prey to that narrative. And, I think what we’re trying to do is, is help people gather more information about what else is in play, what are other factors? What are other data points that they need to be aware of, like the study that you’re referring to? Because there are I’ve come across countless examples where information that should have been earth-shattering, like the work of Warburg and Krebs in 1927, when they discovered that copper enzymes respond to anemia. Well, that tells you that copper regulates iron. And that’s a major study that maybe three people know about. And so it’s to me there, there’s been a narrative throughout the decades, to bias people to a certain way of thinking about focusing on pathogens, focus on the particle, don’t focus on the field, don’t focus on the physiology or the energetics of the body. Everything’s about, well, we’ve got this bug and we got to kill the bug, that telling you that when you kill that bug, you’re going to kill the mitochondrial bugs that look just like the bugs are trying to kill. And so people are I think people are more sensitive to it today, three years after, you know 2020, and so It’s a different world now. But I think there’s still a subset of society that has been lost in the narrative. And I don’t, I don’t know what it’s going to take to get people to do the gut check and say, I gotta rethink this, I’ve got to go down a different path. I’ve got a challenge. I mean, as Mark Twain said, if you find yourself on the side of the majority, it’s time to switch sides. And so it’s like, people, people like to be in numbers. I like to be in the crowd. It’s more comfortable. But that doesn’t mean it’s right. And I think I think this is this cataclysmic clinical issue around vitamin D. I think we’re gonna look back on it in 10 years, and what? Oh, my gosh, I mean, I think you and I will be relieved. But I think the masses are going to be stunned by what they didn’t understand. Again, I think there’s there’s enough evidence to satisfy us that, thamistakes are beingng made. But it’s just tragic that people can’t seem to process the information in a timely enough fashion to make make a different decision. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, and shifting gears a little bit here where someone’s listening to this and they might be getting some good pieces of information and other pieces might be a little bit above their heads. What you’ve done is you’ve created y usable handbook that I saw you have a new update for thay gives people okay, well, what do I do the same people that find strength in numbers and want shortcuts and just do this and the magic wand and you know, everything’s, you know, waived and you come home from the ball and you don’t turn into a pumpkin, you know, all that type of thing. But let’s maybe talk about that, because I think it’s an important point in terms of maybe what’s new on there, what you have things that you should be stopping, and things that you should be starting all in the guise of getting your bioavailable copper working effectively for you so that you are moving your, your iron, you’re recycling your iron, you’re making ATP, you’re not oxidative Lee, creating inflammation and breaking down DNA and proteins and so forth. So maybe what’s new on that Morley or for the person that’s never heard of that? That’s what’s old, that’s effective? And what do you what is? What’s it trying to do? I guess that’s the question.   Morley Robbins: Yeah, the protocol, the root cause protocol is just trying to simplify the process of getting well and is based on stops and starts. And getting people to realize that these very popular nutritional recommendations, ascorbic acid, vitamin D, zinc, iron, calcium, and synthetic B vitamins, are not your friends. And so we’ve taken a stance, get those out of your routine, get rid of the processed food, you got to move beyond that, and get to real seasonal, locally grown wherever possible organic food. It’s not easy. It was not cheap. It isn’t. It takes a real commitment to go down that path. But the focus on the starts is to begin to build the nutrients in the body to develop bioavailable copper. And I think the biggest change in the, in this latest edition of the handbook is to identify copper supplements, what you know what happens to be the one that I’ve put together called recuperate, but others are mentioned, but we wanted to make sure people knew that there are viable sources, because we were silent about that in earlier editions. And in large part, the whole stance around COPPA changed. Post 2020 I think that copper has been under assault ever since that mechanism started. And I thinpeople must realizeze that if they’re still struggling with symptoms, here in 2022, you’re copper deficient and you need ty bulk up. You need to be doing the protocol. You need the other nutrients that are critically important for making sure the copper gets loaded into its key metabolic protein called through low plasmon, but there are scores of comprehends items that need to be loaded. And the loading process requires retinoic acid from retinototo activate the enzymes to come Move the copper, into those enzymes. And if you don’t have retinol in your diet, and you don’t have retinol in your physiology, it will not those key regulatory enzymes are not going to work. And those enzymes are critical for creating energy-clearing exhausts catalyzing other enzymes and combating enemies. All this focus on pathogens over the decades for the last century has been having pushed copper aside because that’s Mother Nature’s anti-pathogenic. It’s been used throughout history. You can go back to the Smith Papyrus 2500 BC. And then we’re talking about using copper to heal people. Well, they do. It’s medicinal purposes. But this is all been lost in the modern era since the First World War, so it’s just a different world. And we live in an iron-centric world where the emphasis is on getting more iron. And in a world where people have been trained to think of copper as being toxic. I can’t tell you the number of practitioners I’ve talked to over the last five to seven years, who are terrified of using copper, because they think it’s going to create all sorts of oxidative stress the same thing   Dr. Joel Rosen: with vitamin A as well, right? I mean, vitamin A is toxic, copper is toxic, Vitamin D is not iron is   Morley Robbins: Not. Right. Right. And that, that, that axis of insanity is why people are so sick. Right? One of the last   Dr. Joel Rosen: Things, I mean, I’d love to talk to you again. But as far as just getting to that point here, one of the things that I think that the RCP in the training taught very well, and put a lot of emphasis on is okay, well, I’m doing the stops, I’m doing the starts, why am I not necessarily feeling any better? And it’s not a magic wand? What’s your life like? Like? What are your stressors? Like? What’s your demand for energy? And how are you respiring at the cellular level? Are you stuck in first gear, are you able to get up a first gear, maybe just talk a little bit about how you’ve incorporated that into your teachings as well because I think that’s a point that’s lost on a lot of people as well.   Morley Robbins: When I’m when I’m chatting with a client, who’s been very faithful to the protocol, trying to do all the stops and starts, as you say, and they feel like they’ve plateaued or they’ry moving sideways, or if something doesn’t feel right. There are four roadblocks that we talk about. The first is, you know, what we know about the protocol is that it works, especially to mobilize iron. Soon as you start to introduce either copper or the nutrients that make copper bioavailable, you are going to activate that iron recycling program. And, what’s important for people to realize is that when they start to do that, that means they’ve got to discharge than iron, through blood donations, very important to get that excess iron that has been held in storage, because of hep Sidon and get it out of the body because there’s nothing beneficial from excess stored iron. So iron donations are very, very important. The second factor is to look at their diet and say, there are yoy sensitive to your foods or your environment, it’s a histamine issue. And begin to identify where that sensitivity is. Any encourage people to work with practitioners who are adept at clearing those sensitivities, through N A E T. Very, very powerful mechanism. Third, we all have emotional baggage. One of the biggest roadblocks we come up against is if you haven’t released that emotional baggage, it will become fear. And the fears drive disarray and dysregulation in our body because it triggers hormones. And those hormones are designed to accumulate iron. It’s a fact. And so it’y key to make sure that people realize that they’ve got to take the time and the steps to release that baggage, release those fears. So they can unbridle, the energy in the body that’s needed for healing. And then the fourth hurdle is parasites. But what I’m finding over the last couple of years is the pervasive impact of the parasites, there are very few doctors that take courses in parasitology not mainstream, clinical education. And so because they don’t know about parasites, they don’t understand The role the parasites played to disrupt copper metabolism to build an accumulation of iron. And, what happens is, these parasites are particularly disruptive to our macrophages, the pet thief, the PacMan that are trying to keep things in balance. And a lot of people are worried about autoimmune diseases. Well, what’s autoimmune? Autoimmune is, without exception, you’ve got iron-laden macrophages. Some way it goes so far as to say hemosiderin-laden, which means there’s so much iron in there, it’s frightening, but hemosiderin-laden, macrophages, parasites, and they haven’t dealt with the emotions. There’s a negative emotion behind every autoimmune condition. And so people need to realize that these parasites, these intracellular pathogens, are very powerful. They’ve been on the planet, since the beginning of time. And what’s especially important is to recognize the work of a pet could overwhelm animal farms down in Australia. And she’s written multiple books on animal husbandry, but she makes a very striking point, any animal that’s copper deficient, will have parasites, and the animal with parasites will have a copper deficiency. Now, the mistake that’s routinely made by practitioners is thinking that parasites only hang out in the gut. Not true. They’re there all over our body, but especially in our liver and our spleen, because of just the prevalence of iron in those organs. And so people need to rethink that they do have parasites, it isn’t just a simple gut cleanse, they probably need bio-resonance, or biomagnetism, ty introduced the frequency to break down the parasites and allow the natural healing energy to flow. And so those are the four, four areas of focus that wy concentrate on. And when we have success around those four areas, invariably, people make that shift. And they get back into the momentum phase, of getting well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no awesome stuff. I already know when we’ve taxed it’s, it’s the answers are, is born out of just common sense Mother Nature things, versus having to crack the atom and come up with, you know, as you like to say, six standard deviation solutions. It’s a common-sense solution.   Morley Robbins: Exactly. Yeah. And I think there’s, there’s a simplicity and elegance to the body. And I think people need to appreciate that Mother Nature is pretty sophisticated at designing how our immune system is supposed to work. And it runs on energy and intelligence. And I would argue that copper is what brings both to the party. There’s nothing intelligent about iron. It’s, it is it’s a very important element. We can’t live without it. But it is. It’s a dumbwaiter basically, it’s just carrying oxygen for thmost ofof the body. And in this, it’s been assigned to all these critical functions. But in every one of them, copper hiding in the background, every one of the functions, there’s a there’s a critical need for bioavailable copper, to make that iron responsible and do its job. And again, it’s in the literature, but it’s not in the headlines. And so don’t get past the headlines, you’re not going to understand what’s going on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I mean, I think if someone’s listening to this, and they’ve gotten this far, they’re open to the idea that what they’re being told is not necessarily so are RCEP 123 dot com, that’s the place where they go to find is that correct?   Morley Robbins: Oh, RCP, 123 dot o RG or? It’s the root cause of protocol.com Just just to make it again.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Who owns the RCP 123 dot com?   Morley Robbins: Don’t know I don’t know if it even exists as a domain. We might own it. But by now I don’t think anyone does. But are we to look it up? No.   Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Well, awesome. Morley. I appreciate your time. I’d love to be able to keep an open invitation if you have the time and inclination to meet again. I wish you future success. I know, that you’ve announced to your community that you’re not necessarily getting out of the mix but you’re stepping back to do more of the research. So I wish you continued success and I guess fulfillment in the new role or the old new role that you’re going back into.   Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I’m looking forward to it. To me, it’s calling a stroke, radical, strategic sabbatical. And focusing on some critical issues that I think are going to help secure the growth and development of the movement. And I’m looking forward to that time in 2023, to do that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, excellent. I mean, I’m looking forward as always, to being sort of on the sideline and seeing all the amazing things that you’re doing, and just wanted to thank you for your continued vigilance and everything that you do. Morley, thank you so much for taking the time today.   Morley Robbins: Well, our next conversation will probably be face-to-face in your office so I can’t wait for that. Perfect. Start to make those. Perfect, thank you so much.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You take care.   The post Metabolic Confusion: Why The Iron In Your Body Is Making You Sick? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults, the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And today, I’m joined by an expert in the field. And it’s a real pleasure. I told him, I’m like a kid in the candy store today. I’m here with Gene Shan Shan, who is a Ph.D. and he is the CEO and founder of GE infinity precision medicine. They are a longevity biomarker company that is aiming to maximize your health span by testing biomarkers and yielding precision nutraceuticals that focus on NAD and senescence testing around the global market. So Dr. Gene, thank you so much for being here today.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: It’s my pleasure. Thank you very much.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so I met you earlier, you probably don’t remember, but you were at the A 4 am meeting. And I got my NAD test result, which was very, very low. And it was a shocker sort of smelling salt to see because I’m helping other people with their health. But ultimately, I’m kind of curious, I always asked my guests a little bit about their background story. And I know you’re in teaching and research. And you’ve been well known for your teddy study that screens hundreds of 1000s of newborns for HLA, Dr. Q, Dr., And DQ, I’m curious how tell me maybe a little bit of how that transitioned into longevity and NAD.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Sure. So I have been an academic researcher on warm water for decades. And, my research, has been having a wide range of topics most of my research focused on childhood, diabetes, or type one diabetes, and we were trying to identify the genetic and environmental factors that cause type one diabetes, and doing during my studies, I have developed expertise in biomarkers, and was also appendix, and that the knowledge and the experience we gained through over the years can be applied to any diseases or conditions or biomedical question you want to be answered. And now about five years ago, I went to a meeting and met a functional medicine doctor in Florida. And we started talking about longevity, biomarker testing, and why biomarker testing would be important to the whole failed field of functional medicine and longevity, in particular. So I have been interested in longevity now because you know, I’m getting to an age where longevity become important, I needed to do something for myself. Because I don’t want to be one of the people who are going to be not mobile or not functional enough, in their 50s and 60s, or 70s. And if you look at the statistics, most of the aging-related diseases started occurring in the 50s, and the 60s, and our knife then is majorly reduced by the development of new Kornek aging-related diseases. So if we can come up with ways to prevent this condition, we should be able to extend the people’s lifespan, or at least the sales of spam by a decade, two decades, and even three decades. So that’s why you know, my interest has very kind of suddenly and rapidly turned the former childhood disease to an Asian relating that problem. And I’m very happy that I made the switch because I think I’m able to help myself, have my family, my friend, and work to help who the community needs to be a very exciting time. Sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s exciting to hear your background. Thank you for sharing. I would also add that when you isolate a great predictor and assessment of the biological age and the chronological age via NAD, specifically intracellular NAD, then the type one diet diabetic children would stand to benefit with everything that you’re going to be doing to support the environment and the boosting of intracellular NAD would still not only help with longevity and health span and aging well but for sick people to heal quicker as well is that a correct statement.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Was needed. So we haven’t we looked at adding a few 1000s of even the biomarkers, three, four years ago, to come up with the data, maybe at most 2002 biomarkers that are most relevant to health performance, and longevity. And what came up at the very top is an ad. And, you know, that makes sense, because NAD is a coenzyme, that is important for the function of over 400, adding them without the NAD on is in times within a function at a wall. So even if policies don’t function, then we don’t have health we even don’t have nice. So it is not only important for aging-related diseases, it was important for pretty much war settlement functions and health, and was important for almost all war major diseases. And We have indeed found only the deficiency in people with many different diseases. Right, it’s still   Dr. Joel Rosen: We could say it’s a very sensitive marker that will predict whether or not you’re, you’re heading in a good trajectory or not. Or maybe you’re already in a challenge, and you’re not aware of it. And it’s really good to be aware of what you have that you don’t realize that you have because it makes you take more accountability for your health. After all, you could see it in black and white. So I guess I guess the question is, now that you can measure the intracellular NAD, maybe tell our listeners why that was a problem in the past, or what the difference between circulating NAD and intracellular NAD is and how you were able to come up with testing it.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Sure. I’m so needy, like many other molecules, ah, usually located inside of the cells. But a part faction of them can be a secret in Warren renice, from inside of the sales into the outside space, and then they got into the bladder certain nation. So that’s why I call the NAD in the liquid part of the blood that we call plasma, circulating NAD because the blood circulates with the body, and NAD was to circulate all over the body. And that’s going to be very important and probably in the later part of our discussion, because circulating in the hive has very different functions, as opposed to interest in the needy. Now when most people talk about the functions of an ad, they are referring to an ad instead of the sales. They feel people maybe know what except for me, hydrogen talking about secondary being an ad war making a difference between certainly the ad and the interesting ad. And you know, I can continue and talk about them and how each of them functions or wait for your question.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, Please continue. I think it’s important I’ll just make a distinction for the listener that there’s a difference when you say NAD and how it’s such an important factor for longevity and aging and measuring that usable intracellular different function versus a circulating and I would say that is true with a lot of different nutrients and chemicals and compounds that if it’s intracellular or extracellular because just because it’s there doesn’t mean it’s inside, metabolically proteomic ly changing the cellular activity. So maybe with that please continue in terms of distinguishing the two.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Sure. I will start by talking about the function of circulating NAD because NAD IV infusion has been I’m becoming very popular in Iran with the general public, especially in the longevity and wellness community. Now, you know only the IV has been very successfully used to treat various conditions, including new or novel conditions, dementia, Parkinson’s disease, and Alzheimer’s disease, and it’s also a way to the treatment for addiction, including opioid addiction. And you know, success is quite a good a, it has water being used to treat autism. And it has been used to treat NIGMS disease, a war with, you know, very good success, successful stories, and oh, no, they are no clinical trials, no double-blind in the way biggest research design. But the clinical evidence of the benefit from the needy IV, I think the outfall. However, a lot of people will start using a needy IV. That’s the treatment for longevity and performances. Um, I’m very sorry to report that only the IV is not really the best modality to even increase interest in the ad. And that has been surprising to many people. And I wouldn’t say that isn’t surprising to me, because of various reasons. And I can go into listing reasons, but the bottom line is, we now have quite extensive data to demonstrate that NAD IV does not increase interest in the NAD, at least in the vast majority of customers. Then, you know, you beg the question, why do you see the clinical evidence by doctors says like an increase in intracellular NAD? How do we reconcile these two? Observation? And I think that we can explain the observations because an ad is a neurotransmitter. Very few people. Think about them, nobody will talk about it may on receptors for an ad on neuronal cells, immunological cells, immune cells. So that’s why, at least partly why the need for the I V. works quite well, for treating the similar terms that I talked about. Because they either serve as a neurotransmitter, it changed how the neuro network is wired to the war activated. So that’s, I think that’s so it’s the circulating NAD wasn’t, was the only the other side of the sales letter siblings, I can win your transmitter, and that gave the patients the benefit for knives disease, even COVID. A patient is okay, but not with COVID, a patient or non-COVID patient is getting benefits from an IDI IV. Again, that’s probably through any deal of the Niagen and changes to the immune response. So only B is a very potent anti-inflammatory compound. So, you can explain why unity doesn’t get inside the field. Mostly you’re interested in ads but still getting all the benefits. So I’m talking about that because I want to predict as well, customers’ patients to understand that if you use the same similar treatment similar compounds. For them, right indications, you’re gonna get a great benefit. But if you use it for the wrong purpose, you’re not going to get the benefit that you want. So it depends on what’s the purpose of the 30 You shouldn’t show to the right to the porch. You know, for performance for longevity Do you have to boost your interest in an ad, because it is important for energy production, as we’re probably going to talk about them, and why it’s important. And a lot of people can plan, you know, they get tired and don’t perform in the uptake of NAD is really at play. And that’s primarily because of interest in the NAD. So you want to bang, you’re interested in the NAD to the optimum level for gain, and the peak performance in your country is medicine. Right? So choosing in wide approach for the inviter purposes, is extremely important. And I have started to may make people that will need it, and I think this is important, and we need to get the message.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Cool. Yeah, no, thank you for sharing your information. So from what I take I was gonna ask you Well, what counts for the therapeutic benefits extracellularly? And it acts as a neurotransmitter. And there’s a lot of therapeutic benefit for that. But then at the same time, understand that don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater and say, well, NAD in IVs didn’t work for me, because I expected it to help this or that, because it doesn’t show clinically that it’s gonna boost to intracellular levels, which we’ll get into in terms of not just performance enhancement and longevity, and health span, but I’m sure a whole host of other major metabolic functions that will improve the extracellular effect even further as well, is that correct?   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Absolutely. And so, with a nod of the when we can put into unity, you are going to get a host of benefits. And then you know, we can go through it. And you know, one by one, you mentioned quite a few of these, you know, improves energy. It protects your DNA from being damaged by oxidative stress and other things. And it was to help people snip, especially deep snip because only the actual in regulates the genes in involved in controlling sleep. And we also have a lot of evidence that posting an ad can improve insulin resistance, and insulin sensitivity, and that’s primarily through, I believe, the reduction of triglyceride. And you can also reduce the summer divide in them like an IoT. So I think we’re going to discover new functions. And we continue to discover new benefits, you know, constantly, and this is such an important molecule that we can develop not treatment options for given the patient’s or to improve people’s overall health.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. I mean I’m sure you’re aware of the statistics that over 88% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy. And I look at the way to explain that as they’re just not respiring at the cellular level, effectively to use oxygen and the food to produce ATP and water. And as a result, they are burning. I guess they’re burning leaves and Kindle and they’re not igniting the log if you will. I’m curious just to know before you were able to stabilize because you were saying no one tests intracellular NAD. Was it not known that or was just assumed up until that time that actually that IV NAD must boost intracellular and then through actually isolating the intracellular NAD and then retrospectively seeing if they were doing IV shots that it didn’t improve the level? How did you come to learn that? Oh, it doesn’t boost intracellular NAD.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Well, so you know, before we got involved, and people were not really making a difference, a distinction between interesting on NAD and secondary NAD and because it’s way hard to measure and especially circulating an ad and it never goes away. No I And, and the NAD in, in the past, MMA is very unstable. And you have a novel in time that can degrade the unity, the Unity molecule, especially, especially CD 38. So, if you are not careful, if you don’t have writing sample pauses in strategy, you’re not going to be able to imagine, secondly, okay, but very few people were able to measure them, secondly, in AD, and so we kind of stumbled onto it, and I never question that, we wouldn’t be able to post the interesting ad, and we landed by, by data, you know, I’m a data scientist, I have my own opinions, theories about, you know, a lot of things. But I’m N What I believe is not what I used to think I let the data guide me and make a decision for me, and, you know, I have done a lot of different things. But the one thing that I am proud of myself for is the ability to look at the data and look at data from a global view. And, from a very truthful view, I don’t want to I want my opinion to bias the data. And I think, unfortunately, that’s not what was true, even among scientists. I mean, I’m a scientist, I’m afraid to say that easily. They don’t understand the data phony, well, they’re kind of biased by their own opinions in either Sunday is good. Till the fourth, never, you have to avoid. So I just look at the data. And the data that we have, from clinical trials that we have done, and from custom data war indicate that an ad IV does not post interest in an ad, there’s no doubt about it. And the black and white even though questionable is no doubt. If you want to want to increase your interest in AD, you got to use a different approach not to IV, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, so and to. So basically, it was very difficult to be able to stabilize, whether it was circulating NAD or intracellular NAD. And when you stumbled upon the ability to isolate intracellular NAD, you also know from a scientific point of view, there’s going to be circulating in the blood and it’s going to be sight inside the cell. And through research and data and inferences. We know without a shadow of a doubt, that giving interest giving IVs with NAD doesn’t impact the intracellular NAD that I’m able to test for. So I guess the two-question part is, how were you able to isolate it? And then number two, what boosts intracellular NAD?   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Great question. So. So the measurement is way simple. And well, I shouldn’t say way simple for interest on an ad and a little more difficult for circulating an ad. And that’s why we don’t do an auto stimulating ad test because it’s more expensive, and requires shipping in in a container with a cold pack. And it becomes logistically more difficult. We can we can we can do it and was entrusted in a needy way basically, to a finger prick. And you get a drop of blood onto another car that’s used for newborn screening. We include a small part of a buffer that will call a needy fixing buffer. You try to pull out the card and you fix the NAD and then drop it in, in a mail shipped back to to us in usually within you know five days you will get your data back in your own account in your own secure account is a very simple process. And the performance of the test is great. The average variation between duplicates is 3.1%. And you know that is great To essay, and I’m very easy to do. So in the second part how what are the best ways to boost interest in an ad? And I’m sure there are going to be many different ways to do it. And so far what I know, is the best way to do it is through NAD precursive. And there are two major types of NAD precursors. Why is coded in de Cocina, my rival site, and the second one’s called in m en de Cocina, my mono nucleotide? Now it takes them to make an ad from up. So we call in the two-step NAD precursor, it takes only one in them to make an ad from n n n. So we call it one step, NAD precursor. So imagine that there has been a North debate even war between the N camp and the N and N camp. And that’s been going on for years, probably over probably a decade or so. Okay, I get asked which one works better? Well to choose is both precursors actually work pretty well. And if you have to make a distinguishing, then then n is probably going to work for more people in up Why is necessary. Because imagine that you have a deficiency in the exam that makes N to N m n, then to NAD, your Ni is not going to work because you cannot make an emphasis in law, if you’re deficient in the time to move to make a name for moving up, right. And even though the internet’s deficient, your Indian men will still work because you don’t need to make it in your work giving in to to the customer, to the patient. So I think that there’s a number the proportion of people who have benefited from nm n should be higher than the percentage of people who can benefit from an up. I don’t know, what’s the proportion? Okay, that’s the short answer, because I have not done the extensive study on in us and we have done have done within a min and 1000s and 1000s of patients and customers. So we know that n m n is a very good precursor. And it also is not only an N, the non may not be sufficient. And then n inom may not work for many patients, it doesn’t work for many, and it does not work for fairly natural proportion of people as well. So that’s why you want to formulate the supplements, net highballing MN and then have other ingredients, their health and their mental function. And whatever you want to have ingredients net or booster, the oval war central activity and and that we have actually formulations such supplement that will call it vitality boost. And that can help over 95% of people to optimize the ad. Remember I call the Optimize, not increase, okay, because there is an optimum window of only the level that are probably the best. And if you get a too much an ad, that may not be good. Well, no, I don’t know the absolute optimum level of the optimum range. But like everything else, too much is not necessarily good. And this is going to be a debate that will continue and I think that we have a lot of data to have unreasonable guidance on wills optimum range shouldn’t be but that will get a fine tune over time and with more data.     Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great rundown Doctor, thank you for sharing that the way I look at it too, is while it’s an amazing compound to be able to optimize NAD levels, it’s also the perfect storm combination of environmental stressors. And like you said, maybe two steps removed genetic enzyme deficiencies are weaknesses, and you can not just expect the supplement to be a magic one, you still have to address the things I always like to use basic economics demand, and supply. So if you have weaknesses in the ability to supply it, and that could be dietary things, and it could be in nutrients, and it can be enzymes and so forth. And you have an increased demand to use it up. And that could be DNA breakdown and, and a whole lot of transport enzymes or other like just environmental stressors, then it’s like filling up a cup that’s got a hole in it, you’re never really holding that juiced if you will. And I liked the idea where we do genomic testing to be able to determine what are the weaknesses in your demands. Meaning what requires more NAD sirtuin challenges, you mentioned CD 38 and inflammatory things we could get into but also DNA breakdown and challenges with X-rays and different types of increased demand for that lifestyle wise and then being able to see potentially, well you know what, you have that gene that doesn’t convert the NR into N MN and why would make no sense for you to take nr you just be yelling at the deaf person louder, expecting them to hear you. So I think that the great thing about where we’re headed is, even though it seems like the sky is falling to a certain extent with EMFs and pollutants, glyphosate, and social media, the stressors just are never-ending. But then you have a brilliant fellow like yourself that’s coming up with ways to support longevity by testing and what you can track you can manage. And when you can see it in plain white, black, and white, you can improve it. So I appreciate that. So lots of other questions I guess we could talk about in terms of the salvage pathway and the de novo pathway. Did we kind of overlap what we talked about with just mentioning the things we did? Or can we boost both pathways? And what are those and what kind of thing?   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Yeah, we can so I think that you can for the lay audience, we you know, we don’t have to get into the power with Pettaway what you know what pathways kind of confuses people, I would simply say that they are hard to type in at precursive. I assume that you told me you’re a pretty good guy and I’m gonna put a good guy young Gray.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Like Building blocks kind of thing that you’re talking about building blocks or   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: The building blocks. So So you have the basic building blocks for NAD nicotinamide, and nicotinic acid. And some some people call it the two together with niacin, but most people use niacin nicotinic acid, okay. Even experts sometimes get nice, just the confused to want them to pay attention to it. So I That’s why I avoid use niacin. If I use niacin, I would only use nicotinic acid. Okay. So, it only the molecules basically, the basic element is nicotine amide and then you haven’t labeled and you have nucleotide. Okay. And we’ll have another one right both in our body and we both have enough amount of nicotine amide but we don’t have enough to make it enough NAD. So many people have thought well we can take a nicotine amide war nicotinic acid and boost the level. And actually, the number of people can get very high levels of NAD. But the problem only a very small proportion of the people can get an ad hire using the very basic elements. They don’t work less efficiently. MN, for example, By can, you can work for some people. So, and it was in addition, both nicotinic acid and the Bucha might have been the norm, and other health benefits as well, what’s important is to find out whether the strategies that one chooses or chooses are working for them. And we’ll come back to the testing. Without testing, you don’t know whether it’s working for you, or not, what’s the right type of supplement, what the brand of Cybermen and more importantly, how much you should take for you because we’re all built differently. You know, you talk about the genomics, our genes, our DNA, our differences, and depending on what genes we have, what are the environmental exposures? We have? And what dietary exercise and all these, you know, environmental factors, and the past, our genes never determine how we respond to everything, including how we optimize our NAD. At the end of the day, if you cannot attest, you don’t know what is working or not. And to some individuals is super easy to get their energy very, very high, and even too high with other people is much more difficult. And so that’s why we developed a test to help people identify what works for them how much they need, without taking too much when they’re not taking enough to weak get needy, optimized, not adjusted only to you know, to not, not all other tests, but we’re talking about needing now we get into the optimize, and you can stay near and have a great time.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Again, it’s a really great answer because everyone is different. Everyone has different stressors, no two snowflakes are the same, right? I mean, whether it’s genetics or environment, there’s no replica of the same factors that will support ad optimization. And so a couple of questions I wanted to get into were the relationship between an ad and biological and chronological age especially because I know you don’t just test NAD intracellular. You test DNA methylation and you test senescence cells. So I guess it’s a good transition into what is the relationship between NAD and aging aside from what we’ve talked about already, if you don’t have it there, you’re going to age potentially quicker, but how are we using DNA methylation and senescence cells as a proxy and full power that I made because I didn’t plug my computer in before we started so I’m gonna get my computer I’m gonna have the edit this out but I’m gonna be getting my plug so I apologize. No problem.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Okay, great. Thank you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, I’ll make sure we had it that out. So you can start with that with what however you want to start? Yeah.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: All right. So what was the next question?   Dr. Joel Rosen: We wanted to know the relationship between biological age and chronological age where NAD fits in and also DNA methylation senescence cells what do you do sort what’s the sort of interrelationship   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Sure. Um, so you know, the chronological age is simple is you know, your your birthday in present time minus your birthday, right? But the chronological age may or may not reflect how you are doing and what’s your power, logical age. You can estimate your biological age by men in different ways. One of the most popular way of measuring biological age is to use DNA methylation, and the test is available from many different companies. They this test can provide a good estimate on what one’s biological age. And we will also provide.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: About the module age test from our company. But I think it is good information to have, and it can be used to assess what longevity Thereby is providing benefits. I think that is useful information, how well it can do? I’m not so I’m not so sure. And I don’t know whether an ad can influence the methanation age. I don’t have the data yet. And it’s some it’s a question that we wouldn’t like to answer. But they are suggestions that NAD can extend your telomere names, and your telomeres are the end of the chromosome. And they get shortened over time. And you can use telomeres to measure balance as you age as well. And there is some evidence that anybody can keep the telomere no longer for a longer period. So that’s why these are still open questions that we needed to study unless a way you know the scientific community. And what we do know is the following. So we know only that is a very good anti-inflammatory compound when discussing that needle. In colonic inflammation is one of the underlying causes of war, chronic diseases. And so keeping inflammation under control. Another good for one’s health, there’s no doubt about it. So we know only the provides a lot of benefit on that. We also know that NAD can help reduce oxidative stress. Oxidative stress is free radicals that our cells produce. That’s the byproduct. We create energy to create ATP molecules. And that’s just a part of what our sales do. But depending on the settlement conditions, some people produce more free radicals are a waste of the produce nests. Unfortunately, Americans particularly high in oxidative stress, if you look at Caucasians in America versus Caucasians in Europe, European-wide and America-wide, and American whites have much much higher oxidative stress than European white men genetically, they should be comfortable in the lifestyle as you you mentioned. So if you look at African Americans, the level of oxidative stress is even higher. If you compare Asians now Chinese, I’m Chinese and Chinese from America have much higher oxidative stress than Chinese in China. So something that we do here, the probably the food is particularly bad to create free radicals. And that’s very important. Subhealth issues won’t risk effectively for diseases that way that medical professionals don’t talk about well, it’s a nice don’t talk about enough. And this is something that I’m I’m very interested in again to you know, get the ideas and To attract people’s attention, you got to pay attention to this free radicals to the oxidative stress. Because bad for our health, and damages our DNA damages our proteins, equate to war kinds of the apartment. Some people even go that far to saying that, you know, oxidative stress or mitochondrial dysfunction, underlying causes of everything. And I think that they are some, you know, good reasoning behind that argument. And it is something that we needed to pay much more attention to. And the third benefit and that anybody can have is to reduce cellular senescence. Cellular senescence is becoming very popular, not only in the Nativity community, but now it’s starting to gain popularity in the mainstream or Nigerian medical community, because it’s involved in so many different diseases. And we have shown, I’ve shown that senescence determines how cervical cancer patients respond to chemotherapy. And the survival time is not dependent on the cellular senescence level. And then that’s just one example. So and so these are the three biggest risk factors for health or for disease, chronic inflammation, oxidative stress, cellular senescence, the three biggest and we can take care of these three, and war three are limited to only the level. And finally I want to emphasize and we’ll have a data forward is your only the level external influence will even go as far as the setting determines how you can respond to other therapies, including anti inflammatory, anti senescence, and antioxidative treatment. If you’re only level is not high on optimization, your response to this treatment is much Ness, than otherwise. So that’s why I’m saying to a lot of people, I mean, even even your listeners don’t remember anything, just remember the next sentence. And optimization is the first and necessary step towards health and longevity. This is the first thing that you want to stress. Because of the influence, so many defensive. Fortunately, we know how to do it now is something that we really can do. And we just need to make people aware of when and started taking action, I’m trying to convince the people one by one, I spend a lot of my time to talk to, you know, my, my customers and and try to help them to figure out how to get into the optimize, and certainly can get the full benefit of everything else that they try to do to stay healthy. And to stay out of diseases.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s great Summary Notice if for nothing else continue to optimize your NAD levels through proper lifestyle and nutrition. And I guess what’s amazing with what you’re alluding to is now that we can benchmark and quantify what our actual levels are, and we could manage it. We can also I guess, create protocols before we do certain things like chemotherapy, radiation, and so forth so that you have better outcomes, knowing going into it, that you’re already constitutionally strong, to be able to have a more favorable outcome. The other thing I’ll say too because I do want to introduce you to what we were talking about earlier, Bob Miller, and help you maybe do some research studies with people that have very low NAD levels. And no matter what you do, they don’t go up, and then being able to see what are these genomic things but one of the things he mentioned to me, which I think resonates with what you were saying with the American male versus the European or the Asian male, is that genetics aren’t different per se very, a very small percentage, but environmentally it is and I think he kind of gave us not the Doomsday, but they like, will look back at some point in time in our environment and say, What were we thinking. And this is a direct quote in terms of glyphosate and polyesters, and aluminum. And just the list goes on and on and on and on in terms of what we’re doing to our biochemistry that’s depleting our inborn chemistry that ultimately expresses as aging and sickness and hence, that’s why we see so many people falling apart with different exposures to different pathogens and different different, you know, life stressors. And one thing that I remember you telling me, which I think it’s important to talk about when we were at the firm meeting was that a lot of people who don’t will probably not want to hear this. And you did mention the concept that I guess the fight between the Hatfields and the McCoys or the nm camp and the NMR camp. But also the reality is, is that maybe you can comment on the quality of the nutrient, all things being equal, and how much you need, because a lot of people are hopefully trying to get them up not knowing that the measly amount or the on the standardized source that they’re getting it from, is not going to move the needle. So maybe shed light on that, from your perspective.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: yeah, no, no, I, you bring up an extremely important question. And we have some answers. So if you look at most supplement companies, including some of the very big ones, and better known, they don’t recommend enough. Okay, so based on our extensive data, I’d recommend 1000 milligrams of Indian and war in to start with, and that’s a good starting point, some people are going to need nests, and other people are going to need more. But you don’t, you don’t, you don’t want to start up on tunnel or too high. And if the midpoint is 1000, milligram AMI, you can do it, I do the twice a day. And because I like to put my energy and, even more often. So if you want to do the one once a day, that’s fine, but I’d recommend that it twice a day. So what’s interesting is there seems to be a threshold, not that you have to pass to get your own at you, if you don’t pass net a threshold, you are going to get no benefit. When this benefit. Unfortunately, a huge proportion of people who have been taking the product for sometimes a year, get very needle will no poster will needy because the amount of money that has been taken is not near the threshold. And this threshold is not the same for everyone. Okay, it’s variable. And that’s why you know, we have to test. So once you pass this ratio, you need to never actually jump pretty quickly. If you be known as a straight home, you can wait for a little boost. If you do above this threshold, boom, it goes up. So that’s no magical solution. Unfortunately, you just have to start with the right dosage and write the product and then get the test in very quickly. And to find out where you are. So you can decide whether you want to increase or decrease the dosage whether you want to switch given the brand or given the type of types of supplements or different types of treatment to get to your level to where you work. And that’s basically what you needed to do. So I have one I have one customer I’m not gonna say his name he’s starting from 100 milligrams a day. Thank you there are so many tests are with me as I said, why you spending all this money? I mean, he went up from you know, 100 milligram and then he increased by 100 milligram every time I look at To The Test assets you need to need, we need to push it up he either to go up to 1500 milligrams a day. And he kind of has never to over 90 Miko. And then I told him to reduce it a little bit. Now he’s the one the 17, which finished his test yesterday at a 72. Now, we prefer the coveted spot. So if you’ve been listening to me, I would have had an optimized with the two tests. And within, you know, four to eight weeks. Another misconception is people think that takes a long, long time to get an ad up it No, it’s not true, you only need two to four weeks, and you may people only after a few days, you’re gonna see the level is already high. So most people will reach a very high level after two weeks. And by four weeks, almost everyone reaches a peak. So that’s why I recommend retesting between two and four weeks. You have your level up by two weeks, forget about Memphis, the strategy is now working for you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know the analogy I like and you said it earlier were simple guys, we don’t want to go into the weeds per se, we just want to know what we need to do to boost the levels. And the analogy I would use is I don’t get that I haven’t paid my Well, now they’re being paid for. But student loan is a bad example. But I don’t get why I’m not making a dent in my student loans. Because you’re only making interest payments. That’s why and until you cut into the deficit. And that’s that progressive overload. I’m trained in exercise physiology. And if you do exercises that don’t stimulate any type of response, it’s a no response. If you do a little bit more than what you need, it’s going to be a progressive overload. If you do a lot more than what you need, that difference is going to be a pain. And I think you want to just not have so much pain with NAD. But you want to do a little bit more than what you need. And then that’s also pointing to the idea of why American men would have lower levels or more oxidative stress and addressing your lifestyle factors and knowing what exposures and what chemicals and what stressors and especially we didn’t get into we’ll do it for part two we’ll leave a little cliffhanger is in terms of one of the major ways that NAD gets depleted is through our nutrient sensing pathways. And I think the world is catching up on the obesity rates to Americans, if you look at all the different countries now. So I don’t know if we share the prize in that anymore. But maybe we can use that as a segue for the next time that we talk if you’re willing to do in terms of well, how the what’s time-restricted eating? What’s the relationship between a toffee G and eating lots of protein and mTOR? What does that have to do with anything and what do sirtuins have to do with this, so that we can maybe go a little bit deeper for other people? But the bottom line is to get tested, and know what your levels are so that you can determine and then embark on a prerequisite and building blocks and lifestyle recommendations to boost it, and then get your levels up. And what I liked about your company is that you have on your website that we’ll give links out to the podcast when we publish this if we don’t boost your levels, we will work hand in hand with you to be able to troubleshoot why. So what I do is I always ask my a question to my guests before we leave, as I say, hey, knowing what you know now, and you’re a smart guy, and I’m sure you’ve always been a smart guy. But you may have not had all this information when you were bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, what would you have told the younger version of yourself that would have helped you or Accelerated your health or just your longevity at an earlier age if you would have known what you know now what would you have told yourself back then?   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: What a very, very good point so, and that one surprise to me was we saw a way sharp and Deputy canine crime of an ad in many people in their native 20s That was shocking. So the point is, you want to start managing your health as early as possible, you know, the twin people in their 20s and 30s I used to be there and they think they are invincible. No, that’s not true. And if you kill yourself, kill yourself healthy, you’re gonna stay healthy for a long, long time. But if we don’t, don’t pay attention to our health and our younger ages, you’re going to pay our dues when we reach old age nears. Now it’s never too early to start paying attention to your health.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great point because you know, you’re seeing, I think for the first time in decades, the lifespan or the age ranges is like life expectancy is going down, I believe. And also type two diabetes is no longer called adult-onset diabetes. And you’re seeing so much more metabolic chaos, if you will, with these kids nowadays, and sleeping with their phone underneath their pillow and Wi-Fi and Amazon Prime and the refrigerator opened at 2 am, and all of these different things that really pull on the purse strings of their longevity and deplete their NAD, it’d be interesting to be able to do a test of 20-year-olds and add in the 19 hundred’s 20-year-olds in the 1920s and then see the NAD levels may be inclined and then decline, I don’t think we’ll be able to do that. But listen, I appreciate your time. If you have any other questions or points you want to bring in now otherwise, I would love to be able to maybe schedule a part two and then I’m excited to start getting my own NAD levels because I want to be in have integrity with what I do because mine were super low and I’m waiting for my next pure product to come in to be able to boost them and to be able to offer testing to people not just the the the NA intracellular NAD but also looking at some of these other signs of aging and inflammatory weaknesses that need to be addressed. And I’m just really grateful for smart guys like you that offer amazing products and services and information to people that are searching for it. So thank you so much for what you do.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Thank you very much. It has been my pleasure to talk to you this afternoon. And your port as well arrives next Monday and I look forward to getting your immediate optimization. I know you’re getting the fear amazing once you get it optimized.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Thank you so much. And I’ll talk to you at our next show.   Dr. Jin-Xiong She: Great thanks. The post NAD+ Explained | Reasons why it’s absolutely critical to healthy aging appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue and fatigue and exhaustion in general, and how to get their health back. And this is part three with my buddy Don Moxley. He’s the director and applied science and brand development at longevity labs in the US. And he’s dedicated to helping people live a vibrant, fulfilling life and using his background as an athlete and sports scientist instructor to help educate people on the science of basically a toughie, G, and longevity, and we got a couple of new things going on in Don’s world. So I invited Don back to have a conversation and for you to listen in over our shoulder. So, Don, thanks so much for being here. Once again.   Don Moxley: My pleasure. Dr. Joel loves spending time with you. We’re going to be down in Florida for Christmas. So we will have worked our way from the far northwest. We were in Blaine Washington about three weeks ago. And had I messed up because we got a picture up next to it’s called the Peace Arch, which is right on the US-Canadian border right there on the Pacific. And then the next week, I was down in San Diego. And I was about an hour from the southwest border. But I didn’t get a chance to go down and get that picture. But my wife and I are talking about maybe going down to Key West when we’re out there. Just go ahead and get the pictures in all four corners.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you’ll have to go back to the bottom there and San Diego and get that one again. Just say prove that you did it.   Don Moxley: There you go. I mean, you know, that’s it’s all about proof. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you have to you can’t just say it you got to do you got to prove it. So. So we had the conversation a little bit before we got started about just how your life has changed. And in our last couple of interviews, you tell us about the different phases of your life and how you’re headed into that sort of that last third or the let’s call it the back nine in terms of doing things differently and to your plan. Maybe we can start with that. And then just Springboard with What’s New in education and what you’re teaching.   Don Moxley: Back nine, but I’m playing 27 holes drill.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. Yes.   Don Moxley: Well, yeah, it’s, it’s been interesting. I don’t remember when on our last podcast, we started our journey. But back in my daughter was finishing up grad school, and she was living with us. She moved out on January 2 of this year. By January 21. My wife and I have sold our house, we bought a 42-foot fifth-wheel trailer. And we started traveling in May. We just spent almost five months out west of Colorado, Utah, Wyoming, Montana, and Washington. We’re working our way back. We’re talking today. We’re back in central Ohio today, as we talk to you. But Sunday I’ll be in North Carolina. We’ll be there for Thanksgiving, we’ll be down in Florida for Christmas. And then we’re going to start to work our way back out west. But we decided we wanted to go find our next home. We want to wake up in the morning and drink our coffee, looking at the mountains. But you know, I didn’t want to I don’t want to buy a home office Zillow. I want to go figure out where we’re Where did where do we find a spot to fix our lifestyle? So that’s what we’re doing. We’re off on an adventure trying to find letting our next home find us.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and at the same time, it’s you’re working as well. And I think it’s a really good segue into as we talk about stress and the impact that it has on the body, and how we can determine if the stress is helping us or hurting us. And I guess is a good sort of intro into what’s new in your world. You go and you lecture for the company that you work for. And I’m sure you have new topics of conversation and new product launches. So let’s get kind of caught up on where you are there.   Don Moxley: Yeah, the big thing that happened, Joel is that so we launch longevity labs a little over two years ago. And during that launch, there is a podcaster by the name of Dave Asprey that featured us and we took off it was a really good feature for us. And when you back then when you subscribe to longevity labs, our product sperm and I in life, and we can talk a little bit more about that because we’ve got a little bit more research along the way. But you got an invitation to have a phone call with me so I wound up having telephone calls with I don’t know 700 800 People. Now Asprey is an aura ring HRV promoter. I believe he’s on their advisory board. And what we found Joe was probably 80% of the people I was talking to had aura rings or they were you see some type of HRV measurement device of those that had it 80% Didn’t know what the hell to do with it. I mean, they, they bought it, they thought it was cool, but they hadn’t quite figured it out. So this has been an HRV is one of my specialties. That’s one of the things I zeroed in on. When I was a sports scientist at Ohio State, you know, we were able to use it as a tool to predict success. And it’s, it’s as much a tool for predicting health, as it is predicting success. You know, you open the show talking about adrenal burnout. We have adrenal burnout when we have too much sympathetic stress. We’re not managing it. Well. We have our adrenals that are overhyped, and they wear themselves out. Well, part of that is being able to deal with adrenal stress, being able to deal with sympathetic and parasympathetic boosts.   When we’re doing that our HRV measurements will improve. And you know that at the end of the day, that’s what we’re looking for. Now, here’s one of the challenges that we have, when we talk to people, a lot of people talk about struggling with sleep. They’ll talk about not being able to necessarily, you know, they have a racing brain, there’s a lot of things that go into this, that we fix with things like meditation and so forth. Well, you know, when I left Ohio State, one of my I moved to Florida and I worked in the cannabis business because back then I had a very good friend who had worked in a wearable company with he said, What do you know about HRV and, and cannabis or THC and I said, I don’t know anything. My athletes are all NCAA athletes. And, you know, they, they we kick them off the team if they test positive. But then at the same time, the work we’re doing, I’m getting calls from some pro coaches saying, Hey, have you looked at this THC thing yet? And I thought, okay, there’s something here I need to figure out so I went and took a dove headfirst into the deep end of the pot pool, and started selling weed in South Florida for one of the licenses. One of the licensed groups down there and started learning and, Joel here’s the first thing I learned. You know, I’ve taught Exercise Sciences. I’ve taught the Exercise Sciences for 35 years now. We have part of our central nervous system that’s called the endocannabinoid system, the internal cannabinoid system. It’s part of our nervous system. endocannabinoid system should be chapter two.   When we teach exercises one-on-one, it should be the second thing we teach. Because, you know, so much of exercise is based on I want to lose weight, I want to look pretty, I want to listen, some of us are never going to be pretty no matter how much we workout. And I’ve accepted that and my wife loves me for who I am, and we’re good to go. But I can’t lose enough weight to become Brad Pitt. You know, just, you know, just not there. And in fact, losing weight is a bad exercise goal. It’s a really bad exercise goal. We’ve been failing at this for decades. But what exercise does do is it triggers the production of a molecule in your system that’s called anandamide. anandamide is an endo cannabinoid. It’s a molecule that your body produces, they call it the Zen molecule. It’s a molecule that your body produces that improves neural communication and looks at the enemy and promotes parasympathetic tone. So the reason you should exercise is because of a lot of longevity things a lot of brain-derived neurotrophic and you makes you smarter, but also you produce anandamide. Well, as we’ve worked for longevity labs, and as we’ve looked at the role of sperm or dine in the autophagy pathways, what we’ve learned, you know, when probably the last time I talked to you, we were referring to sperm tonight as a calorie restriction, mimetic. It mimics fasting. Well, based on some research that’s going on that will be published by the end of the year, we’re prepared to move sperm dying down into the cell, we can now say that it is a key molecule in the autophagy pathway.   Without sperm iodine, you don’t get a toffee G. It’s not a stimulant. It’s a key molecule. Now, what’s that mean to what we’re talking about today? Well, what we found is that there are some essential molecules that we adapted that we can bring into our system to help physiological processes. This physiological process we’re talking about is related to HRV as being able to monitor sympathetic versus parasympathetic stimulus. We listen sympathetically is easy to come by, you know, there’s lots of paper lions out there. Most people are pretty wrung out. And then when you when they’re not exercising when they’re not sleeping when they’re not doing the key things that create anandamide? Well, it starts to head downhill, and you get that cascading effect. Well, you know, that the people at longevity labs came to me and said, so if you’re going to create a nutritional supplement to improve HRV, what would it look like? And this is something I’ve been working on, you know, I, you know, I’ve, I’ve tried to give this recipe away many times, to many manufacturers, and no one bid on it. So when my company came to me and said, Let’s do this, I said, Okay, let’s get this formulated. So, what we’re talking about is a product called HRV. Plus, longevity Labs is launching a sub-brand. That’s called the mode and method mode method. If you go to mode method.com, put your email in there. And you will be notified when we launch we expect to launch at the beginning of December. Now, anytime that you’re launching new products some issues got to go with that. So I can’t promise it but that’s what we’re shooting for. So if there’s a listener interested in this, go to mode method.com There’ll be a window pop up, put your email and you’ll be notified immediately. And on checkout when it when we do notify you on checkout, there will be a code look at the show notes web for a code for Joel that will give you a little bit of a discount too but mode method.com and the product is called HR v plus, it is a combination of cannabinoids so we use CBD what a lot of people have heard about CBD, but we use it in a much higher concentration than what most people are used to. What I believe is the really valuable molecule is CBD it’s the acid version of CBD. It’s what the plant produces.   You know, CBD is largely a byproduct of the cannabis industry creating adult-use rec products. It’s kind of a byproduct of that. CBD A is what comes right out of the plant and CBD does not bond to any receptors in your body. It doesn’t bond to CB, it doesn’t bond to CBD. I take that back and do bonds and pain receptors, but it doesn’t bond with any receptors in the endocannabinoid system. CBDa does. So CBDa is an active participant in this in the endocannabinoid system. And then we combine the cannabinoids with what’s called a dietary cannabinoid that’s called beta-caryophyllene. Beta-caryophyllene has an outstanding profile of not just bonding the CB one well, what it does is it boosts anandamide, which bonds to CB one, and it bonds to CB two, which improves inflammation and lowers pain. But it also bonds to a host of pain-reducing receptors and lowers inflammation, it is a wonderful product. So we have this great combination, we call it a terpene. It’s also been referred to as a dietary cannabinoid, because literally, it’s so close to the cannabinoids, chemically, but it’s produced in other plants, so they don’t call it a cannabinoid. And then Joel, we take that combination, and we put it into a DHA, EPA Omega three oil. But the Omega three oil is also enhanced with what’s called specialized pro-resolution mediators. So we call these es PMS. And an S Pm is the biologically available Omega three that resolves the inflammation pathway. So when anytime that we have inflammation, it’s going to lower HRV HRV. And inflammation goes hand in hand. So if you have low HRV, you’ve probably got an inflammation thing going on. Now, how do you deal with inflammation?   Well, we get our omega threes up, first of all, because you know a lot of inflammation is the byproduct of too many Omega sixes, we got to get them balanced. But we can go ahead and get some and usually pain with that. So we’re throwing a bunch of NSAIDs on top of that, which is not letting the inflammation process resolve itself because we’re blocking too many pathways. Well, we’re putting SPMs right in the product. We’re putting that finalized piece in there. And, the combination of the cannabinoids and the biologically available omega threes has turned out to be a pretty powerful tool. You know, you’ve been able to use the product for a couple of months now. We’ve had it out there in sample form with a lot of people. We’re getting great feedback on sleep. The first thing people talk about is I took this and I slept like a baby that night and it’s To the point now, you don’t get that kind of a robot Tussin sleepiness, it’s not that barbiturate base kind of sleepiness, you, you get good natural sleep, you crash out at night. If you have to get up during the night, you get up you can go right back to sleep and you wake up in the morning and you’re not groggy. So, and I and I think what’s happening here I’m pretty excited about this is that we’re supplying the micronutrients that are necessary for the endocannabinoid system to operate appropriately to, to restore homeostasis to our endocannabinoid to ours, our, our nervous system, the portion of our nervous nervous system, the autonomic portion of our nervous system, establishing that back, so we’ve been pretty happy with our sampling program, we’re getting ready to start a couple of research studies with this with a couple of wearable groups. So we’re excited about the product and how it’s going so far.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, listen, that’s awesome lots to unpack and see the different rabbit holes that you’ve gone down dawn with the endocannabinoid system, and the CB, CB, one, CB, CB, D two are, there’s a lot of science behind it, which I don’t quite understand myself. And what I want to try to do is combine how sperm iodine is now not just an I guess it’s a cofactor, if you will, for Tophet G is that accurate to say?   Don Moxley: We’re calling it a critical mechanism in the autophagy pathway. And, where we go back to Joe, we did it, we did this, there was a study that was done in Austria. So if you take a mouse and you fast it you get a toughie G, if you take a spermidine knockout mouse, and the faster you get nothing, okay, so by knocking sperm and out out of the autophagy pathways in mice, it rocked the system. So again, I don’t think it’s fair to call them a medic anymore. So that’s been one of the exciting parts of our work with sperm iodine. And, you know, listen, what one of the reasons we’re in this space we had a lot of our users tell us, they saw an improvement in their HRV with sperm at night, okay, and so and when you look at a tapa G and inflammation, anytime that you have high inflammation, you probably have low autophagy. Most of the time, when we’re able to boost the tapa G, we lower inflammation, and that link of inflammation to the autonomic nervous system to what we’re measuring with HRV is interesting. So all we’re doing with HRV plus is coming in the backside of that autonomic nervous system. And making sure the basic micronutrients are there. So your body can achieve homeostasis, so you get a good sleep so that you can start this process of recovery. So we can, so we can lower sympathetic, because anything, anytime we have bad sleep, and we have inflammation, we have a sympathetic bump and you’re in your and your adrenals are going to pay the price. The only way you can stop that is lower that adrenal stress, and increase the parasympathetic response. And that’s what we’re trying to do with HRV. Plus.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s just interesting gone, how all of this longevity, health optimization, a toffee, G growth factors, inflammation, immune dysregulation, they’re starting to become together like a symphony. And it’s not just throwing the crap against the wall and just hoping that everything sticks, it’s more done in a pattern or more of a, I guess, orchestrated way. And so I guess that’s a good way to put it. Yeah. So with that being said, again, just to summarize, we’re looking at people that would have a lot of stress in their life, a lot of to-do lists a lot of immune challenges, their cert rhythm, and their day, their tired at during the day, and they’re up at night, and they just don’t feel healthy. And ultimately, a big part of that is because they’re not getting into a toffee g where that helps to recycle their cells and clear that out. And as a result, that can put too much sympathetic tone in the body, which lowers that HRV and creates almost a vicious cycle where the inflammation just feeds forward. So I guess the question is how, when you’re designing the studies, or even just recommending to your, your user or educating them, Are you starting to put together the orchestration down because I know Yeah, I guess that’s the question we can go with. Yeah,   Don Moxley: That’s as far as orchestrating on an individual basis, Joel? It’s difficult because, you know, listen, orchestration involves instruments, instruments can be tuned. So you can play if you’re trained and I’m trained, we can take the same instrument and get the same notes out of it. Okay? That’s not necessarily the same with the human body, you know, you’ve got to set genetics, I have a set of genetics, your environments, different my environments different. In the same way, the instrument may sound different, whether I’m in a room with a brick wall, or I’m in a concert hall, there’s certainly going to be a difference in environments. So this is where we see HRV as a really important key molecule, it’s a key indicator. I believe it’s one of the most powerful key performance indicators there is. It tells you whether you have resiliency and whether you’re ready for the stress that comes. So I love that. One of my other key performance indicators, personally, is watts per heartbeat. So I write up I love riding bicycles, I’ve had eight knee surgeries, so I don’t run anymore. So I ride bicycles, and I always ride. So we have a peloton in our rig. So we have a 42-foot fifth wheel. And one of the things when we decided on this life, we’re like, Okay, we have to have exercise with us. And the hack. So you look over my right shoulder, you see my sauna, you look. On this side of me, you see my red light panel, you know, we designed our rigs so that we can have these key pieces. So one of my KPIs is watts per heartbeat. I know that as my wattage goes up on, on the peloton, and as my heart rate goes down at a given wattage, I’m getting the effect I want, I’m getting more power per heartbeat, my mitochondria are functioning, my red blood cells are there my systems are developing. And consequently, there’s an HRV benefit that goes with that, that when I’m at my highest fitness levels, I’m typically at my highest HRV levels. So again, HRV watts per heartbeat. For me, these are key performance indicators. They’re, you know, I used to use key performance indicators back as an athlete, you know, how much can you squat? How much can you deadlift, things like that? I don’t use those as much I make sure and deadlift and squat and do those things. But I don’t necessarily worry about it, is it 800 pounds? Or is it 700 pounds, I don’t worry about that. I haven’t been under a bar that had more than 300 pounds on it, and many, many years. So but my KPI is my HRV climbing because what I know, as we age, and as we move closer to death, when it relates to healthspan HRV drops, right before death HRV will be zero. The more I can push my HRV up, the farther I am away from death.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Right. And I think that’s a good point gone in terms of not micromanaging the less important data points and seeing the more important movers the of the needle. And I like so back to maybe that aura ring user that didn’t know what to do now they are armed with, I guess, with longevity labs, products in the sperm iodine and the HRV plus division to take the thinking out of it and take the supplement and see the results is that.   Don Moxley: Well, I still think you have to think Listen, it’s your body. You’ve I mean, there’s not a doctor out there that’s brilliant enough to see you in their office once or twice a year, and give you the kind of feedback that you need to maximize your lifestyle. This is a completely 100% self-driven process. Listen, you know how you work, you know what you like, when you do on vacation. You know, there are certain things, you got to own your longevity, you got to own your performance. Do you mean coaches can help? But at the end of the day, you got to have your performance indicators. And frankly, you know, when you have HRV working well, and you go out in let’s say you go out drinking with your friends one night, you’re gonna wake up and you’re gonna tank your HRV for a couple of days. Okay, I have found following HRV is the best tool I’ve ever seen for people to quit drinking because alcohol is brutal. You know, with my athletes we used to we would do 24 and 48-hour HRV studies on them. And I was able to demonstrate to my athletes going out and having four beers before going to bed. Got your sleep efficiency in half. Okay, so that four beers in eight hours of sleep was worth four hours of sleep, which isn’t enough. Okay. So, for the first time, we had objective data that I can show to my athletes. You know, listen, you go back to Rocky you know women weaken the legs you don’t drink before, you know, there’s all these these these wives tales now out, you pay a price when you drink, period, end of the story. I have, it’s, I hardly drink anymore on occasion I have, you know, I’ll have something in an event or something like that, but I rarely drink alcohol anymore. You know, the benefit of alcohol, they used to say was in resveratrol. That resveratrol benefit comes in the first few sips, rarely found at the bottom of the bottle. And you know, and the price you pay with the alcohol is significant. And I’ll tell you the other thing, frankly, if I feel like I want to introduce some intoxication into my life on the night, I do it with cannabis. I use cannabinoids because it does not crush my endocannabinoid system. I can I can enjoy that. I can wake up the next day and not be hungover. And excuse me. I can wake up the next day not being hungover and I’m able to function and have a good response from it doesn’t hurt me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and we’re talking about THC at this level. Right?   Don Moxley: Yeah. Yeah. A little bit of THC, a lot of CBD, and a little THC. I think that’s where my sweet spots at.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, okay, I got you. So for those that aren’t as sophisticated, they get a little bit paranoid because they don’t want to necessarily have the negative stigmas or if there still are with that, maybe sort of unpack that Don with the HRV plus, and what CBD is because I think some people still aren’t knowledgeable about that. Sure.   Don Moxley: And that’s a great question. So when the cannabis plant produces its cannabinoids, they come in two large groups. One is called the car that’s the acid and ca when you decarboxylated it when you heat it and it loses the acid, it then becomes psychologically reactive it will bond to the CB one receptor, and that CB one receptor bonding THC causes intoxication. That’s how you get high. Now CBD will not bond to the CB one receptor. CBD won’t bind to either CB one or CB two. binding the CB two does not create intoxication. It lowers inflammation and improves immunity. It works in a lot of the same pathways that autophagy works in. So when we designed our product, we designed our product there’s there it’s made from hemp, which has to be below point 3% THC by volume. So we pass all those rules there’s nothing in our product that will intoxicate you and but then again when people are using it the sleep has been off the scale it’s been you know it’s not asleep supplement, but it’s a supplement a lot of people are using for sleep.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and just so curious so let’s say like just for the argument’s sake if someone did have a dispensary and get THC and they took the HRV plus, the cannabinoids in there seem to cut somewhat of the euphoric intoxicant feeling of   Don Moxley: Not necessarily there’s a thing with THC, that’s called the entourage effect, where one plus one equals three. So you’ve got to be a little careful because everyone’s different, everyone’s systems a little different. So what we recommend is that if you do use THC, and you’re using HRV plus simultaneously, be careful to figure out how it’s going to work because that entourage effect, it’s talking about it could add a little more to it. You want to make sure it’s not going to roll you up a little bit instead of rolling you down. Right? So So you got to pay attention. Anytime that you’re messing with cannabinoids, you got to pay attention to that everyone’s different and so their endocannabinoid systems are different.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and you know I hadn’t even anticipated talking to you about this but this was sort of a light bulb that just came on I remember texting you and asking your opinion on the way the CDA or what iifI forget what it’s called I’m not the THC and not the CBD but they have   Don Moxley: what is it? So So there are a lot of long chains cannabinoids there CBC CBG CBN mean, so cannabis Geral cannabinoid cannabidiol we’re not playing in that space. We have an extract that has a known CBD CBD and beta-caryophyllene blend. Those are the big three we’re going after. Whether we go down the sea EBG or CB N pathway at some point in time, I’m not sure we’re certainly going to look at some other combinations we’re working with some formulators from across the country, looking at other terpenes, other plant terpenes, and how they work. And you know, there’s some, there’s some pretty interesting like acetylcholine esterase inhibitors. Listen, if we can boost acetylcholine, that’s probably a pretty good thing.   And you can do that with some terpenes. So we’re exploring that. It is not in this product, this product we have designed strictly for this HRV plus. And again, we get that with the CBD CBDa and the beta-caryophyllene. All in the Omega threes, particularly with the SP PMS, the specialized pro-resolution mediators, which I’m, I’m excited to introduce to an audience that just isn’t that familiar with them. I love SPM. They’re wonderful tools. So we’re excited to get it in the product.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure that and the resolvins. I was just listening to a DNA lecture by one of my mentors, and they’re going down the arachidonic paths, pathways, and they’re looking at platelet aggregation and thrombosis and some broke from you know, thrombosis, and just having upregulated stress response when you get these exposures, that you tend to put more inflammation into the bucket then, your counterpart and I think that that’s what you’re seeing nowadays, Dawn is you’re seeing a more favorable or unfavorable tendency when there’s inflammation to be inflamed, right. Are you seeing that as well, I mean, well has ever been?   Don Moxley: That’s what we’re talking about. I mean, so that arachidonic acid pathways coming from omega sixes and listen are inflammatory pathways are critical for success. They’re critical to life. Okay, you know, if there’s an assault on a cell, either from an infection or from a virus or physical damage, you need those cells to go into an inflammatory process, they swell up, they get heat, there’s temperature, they try to kill any internal bodies. The problem is we have so many Omega sixes in our system, that we overproduce Omega six arachidonic acids, we have so few omega threes in our system, omega threes are typically driving the resolving pathways of inflammation, it’s the same enzymes. So when you take an NSAID, when you take an Advil or something like that, it’s interfering with the Cox two enzyme, which is lowering that that inflammation pathway from arachidonic acid via Omega six, but at the same time, it’s interfering that same Cox two pathway has to turn the omega three fats into the resolvins. So, you know, listen, we know there’s pain, we know people are using NSAIDs, by getting the s PMS into the product with the Omega threes, all we’re doing is we’re boosting that resolve inside of the inflammatory pathway, which is going to yield an HRV response.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, you know, it’s, it’s, you can also promote it, are you promoting it as a pain reducer as well? I mean, it could help produce. Yeah,   Don Moxley: Yes. The FDA would probably frown on that. So no, it’s a tool designed to raise HRV what we’re finding with our early studies is this you can’t fix HRV unless you fix sleep. Okay? If I don’t care what you do for the rest of your life if your sleep is broken HRV is hard to fix it’s critical. So one of the this has been one of the byproducts I frankly I didn’t expect this when we designed the product it’s you know it’s uh you know, listen even blind squirrel trips over and not every once in a while, and we kind of done that here. But with the sleep that has come with this product we have been thrilled to death. And you know, Joel, it makes sense. If I want to raise HRV I have to get sleep fixed after no two ways about it. And then you add in the other things, you add in the other nutrients, you add in exercise, you add in quality, light, all those things that come with longevity and performance. And we get resolution of the inflammatory pathways, which is going to increase and lead to a parasympathetic tone, which is going to raise HRV   Dr. Joel Rosen: Have you looked at the stacking of which the sperm are dying to see if there’s like a study between? No, that’d be the thing to know. Right?   Don Moxley: I agree with you. I listen, there’s a lot of these things that again, the last time we spoke, we refer are in the sperm are dying as a calorie restriction mimetic in the, in the line of resveratrol and metformin and rapamycin? Well, now we’re looking at sperm nine as a key molecule. Okay? Again, I’m sure if you took a sperm iodine knockout mouse and you gave them Rapa myosin, there may not be a toffee G there because sperm nine is not in the system. So, you know, if you’re using rapamycin or if you’re using resveratrol, or if you’re using Metformin, in the absence of sperm, iodine autophagy is not improved. And, again, that improved a tapa G is going to lower inflammation, it’s going to there’s going to be an improved, there’s going to be an improved HRV response just from that. But we’re coming, we’re coming back with the HRV plus as another tool to put in your toolbox to deal with this, the fact that we live in aquariums, we do not have us, the environments that we live in, are not consistent with the evolutionary pathway we took to get here. So part of what we have to do is we need to make sure we’ve got those key nutrients available so that we’re able to deal with the stress that comes with life.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Absolutely. So as far as just a nice perk and plug to the longevity Labs is at no further investment. Did I get an increase of the reformulation of the higher potency in the sperm a dime, so maybe get a little idea as to why that came through?   Don Moxley: Yeah, we’re excited about that. So again, we’re always innovating. This is important for us. So what we’ve learned when we first started selling sperm and iron life, we sold it in a one-milligram dose. So two tablets, one milligram. That’s the reason we did that. That’s what the European Union told us we could sell. Along the way we’ve been, we’ve done more studies to show that it’s a safe supplement. We’ve done safety studies, the 20 milligrams a day. European Union has approved us to sell up to 12 milligrams a day in products. Now, we don’t have anybody asking us for 12 milligrams, we do have people asking us for six milligrams. So we have a six-milligram spermidine Life product. You can buy 10 Day versions of that online, or through a physician, we sell 30 days because we think to Listen, that’s a big step up we need, we want to make sure there’s a healthcare professional in the middle of that decision. But more importantly, we are a technology for extracting sperm iodine from wheat germ into what we call our cell vo product. So cell Vo is not just spermidine by itself. Right now if you go to if you go online and search sperm nine, you’ll see a lot of very high-dose sperm and egg products online. The problem is most of those products are synthetic experiments, which have never been tested in humans hasn’t been done. When you’re working with sperm and iron life, this cell vo product not only has the sperm Undine that’s in it that we talk about. But the other polyamides are there too putrescine spermidine. They’re all there and they all work in concert. As well as we’ve improved our ability to extract cell vo we’ve been able to refine it more. So now we can get one milligram of sperm and iron-rich cell vo extract into one capsule. So our product went from one milligram-a-day dose to a two milligram-a-day dose. So if you buy spermidine, now, it’s going to be a two-milligram per day dose. So we’ve been able to double the dosage, we’ve got some other stuff coming to so we have the six-milligram products available. We’re going to have some others coming along. So we’re constantly working to lower the cost of our product and improve lower the cost of our products and improve the concentration that you get as we move through.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And I think when you and I talked that one of the lectures you are giving you are saying to like just sort of try a little bit at a higher dose for sleep. So I’m imagining that the higher concentration and the six milligrams coupled with HRV plus I mean, are you seeing those?   Don Moxley: We haven’t gotten there yet. We haven’t gotten there yet. Yeah,   Dr. Joel Rosen: it’s interesting. You know, I mean, listen, it sounds like it makes sense from my point of view when I work with people that are exhausted and burnt out. And they’re there you know, cell danger is deciding what’s most important for survival for short-term survival and not concerned about the long term. Circadian rhythms are upside down, hormones are imbalanced insulin is driving up mTOR they’re not able to get into Tov G, and they’re inflamed. And obviously, their HRV their parents, their sympathetic tone is, is dominating and they’re wired and tired and they’re not sleeping, right? So, being able to unpack all of that is the goal for I think providers, and nutrition formulators alike.   Don Moxley: And listen, what we’ve learned is that from a sperm iodine standpoint, and a toffee G, there’s not enough sperm iodine in the diets of Americans with the food that we consume, to support the level of autophagy that we need. That’s pretty clear. We expect suburbanites to eventually achieve vitamin status as an essential nutrient. So, you know, listen, this is one of the byproducts of industrial farming, the nutrients kind of drop out on those, we get a lot of plants, we get a lot of proteins, fats, and carbohydrates. But we don’t get the micronutrients and spermidine is just turned out to be one of those micronutrients, that’s critical, that’s not in our industrial-produced food source. So you have to supplement it. And at the same time, when we look at the environment, are we getting effective levels of these molecules that support the stress of our autonomic system? And again, what we’ve learned is that cannabis produces this wonderful molecule CBD the acid form of it. CBD is also good, it does some things, you know, it does some very positive things, but you gotta get the dosage higher than most people are consuming it. And then you roll that in with the beta-caryophyllene, which is a dietary cannabinoid, which has which enhances a whole nother set of receptors. It’s been a great combination and gives you the ability to get into the fight, you know, and again, it’s a, we use the term fight, which is probably not the right word because the fight would be sympathetic. But the process of trying to get control of your autonomic nervous system, get control of your lifestyle, so that you’re able to get parasympathetic tone, you’re able to balance sympathetic versus parasympathetic, you’re able to work your way through the cycle. These are all valuable tools. Yeah,   Dr. Joel Rosen: just curious, as an aside, have you listened to polyvagal theory or read the polyvagal theory book?   Don Moxley: I have not read that one yet. But every time you and I talk, I wind up with a new book on my shelf. So   Dr. Joel Rosen: read that one I’ve just finished I just finishing it now. And it talks about basically polyvagal, three branches. So they have the unmyelinated, primitive reptilian below the diaphragm part of the vagus, and they have the myelinated above the diaphragm. And then, of course, they have the sensory which is 80%. Right. So it talks about how, if you think of it from an evolutionary standpoint, with the reptilian unmyelinated motor below the diaphragm, this was mostly mainly for fainting, feigning, or avoidance. And then the next one in the hierarchical range was sympathetic, which was to, you know, fight or flee and get out of the way. But then the more mammalian one, which is myelinated, above the diaphragm, was more to once you felt safe, and you can regulate the sympathetic, that was allowing you to have community bonding because my Malians we thrive in connection and purpose and interesting, which is a good segue in terms of I think it you can’t just think of it as checks and balance like autonomic sympathetic, parasympathetic. Yes, you can, but thinking of it in terms of that hierarchy, Don, I think that for people that would take this product and want to improve their sleep, and want to improve their HRV I think a lot of it on its own, like you can’t just you have to think still, like you said, right. But I think a lot of it also comes down to you know, relationships and having your creature comforts and having your infrared behind you and your saunas and being with your wife and being community and feeling safe. I don’t know how much that’s educated on longevity lat labs, you know, I guess, modus operandi.   Don Moxley: It hasn’t been but what’s been interesting for him, and this is a story I’ve told before, I think I’ve told him on your show, but when I was with the wrestling team at Ohio State, I walked into practice one day, and one of my wrestlers this kid’s a multiple time all American should have been a national champion, but during the COVID he was number one ranked guy here when they canceled national, so top-level wrestler and he said Coach Moxley said, he said, What would video games do to my HRV? And I said, Luke, I said, here’s the problem. I said, your brain doesn’t know if that’s a real gun pointing at you. Or if that’s a fake gun coming at you through the screen, your brain just knows the gun. So he said, I had a hell. What is the, um, there’s a video game, I forget the name of it fortnight? He said I had a hell of a fortnight session. And my sleep was horrible. And I said, there you go, buddy. I said you’re starting to figure this out. So, you know, I listen. These are the challenges the screens, listen, there are benefits, there are costs and benefits to everything. You know, you and I are using technology to communicate over distances. You know, listen, I would love to be in the room with you down there in Boca. But I can’t be I’m up here in Ohio right now. And we’re using technology to build community and to talk to our tribes. But, but you know what, when it’s time to go to bed, you got to turn the screens off, you gotta get the blue, down. You’ve got to, you’ve got to anticipate this. And again, when you throw in the micronutrients that are necessary for a toffee G to work for our endocannabinoid system to adjust itself to get a parasympathetic tone. You know what? That’s the good thing?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah. Just a segue to that book, it talks about the difference between playing with people and playing with games, and there is no, like really looking at someone’s face and trying to discern if they’re, you know, friend or foe and help us, you know, bond. And, interestingly, you said that. Also, too, I think like, to your point. It’s not I mean, taking the supplements and having the proper lifestyle, getting your circadian rhythm and trained and not having, you know, major demands and not enough supply. I guess the easy thing to do is get out of the way of nature, right? And give it what it needs and get taken away when it doesn’t.   Don Moxley: Yeah, listen, there’s no pill I can give you to take, that’s going to be able to adjust the effect of playing fortnight from 10 o’clock until two in the morning. Okay, right. Okay, when now there are some times you’ve got to work from 10 o’clock to two in the morning, hopefully, listen, shift workers, we know how difficult it is to be a shift worker, how throwing that circadian off it is, it is so hard to combat the effect of that. But if you’re not a shift worker, and you have a choice as to whether you play a video game from 10 o’clock to two o’clock, you have to learn to make those choices. And you know, these are this is just part of you owning your life and making those decisions.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, like the I think the art of doctoring has gone out of the window with the time constraints and what insurance pays for and it doesn’t pay for but even in a quick little console with someone and I started asking them what’s going on. It’s not rocket science, that their demand is so high and their supply is so low, it’s not and you need to look in the mirror and decide, okay, what can I start to slowly make some changes that I don’t expect to add another supplement to or a crazy whiz banks dietary approach to and expect to, you know, be a magic wand with I mean, look in the mirror and find out like what you’re doing. The last thing I’ll say about the polyvagal to Dawn is it is very physiological, almost, it is primitive, and reflexive to have some of these withdraw or freeze or just do a life-saving behavior with major stress or trauma. And it’s not so much the trauma that messes them up. It’s the emotion associated with that Trump trauma or the meaning they put on it, right, what the author was talking about is if you can educate other doctors on not making their behavior wrong like it wasn’t wrong of you to faint or just to go with it or let yourself be traumatized. Because that was what your body inherently did to save itself to preserve its life and you need to celebrate that and not put an emotional attachment to it. And then that way you can start. You can start from there in terms of getting back integrated and feeling safe instead of feeling what you did was wrong. And I think I mean, it’s just a little side note on On sympathetic, parasympathetic, you know.   Don Moxley: I absolutely agree with that. And I use an analogy from time to time. If you’re born in a rattlesnake pit, the only way you serve you survive is through hypervigilance. That’s, that’s all there is to it. But if I move out of my rattlesnake pit into a field of bunnies, okay? I’m still going to be hyper-vigilant. We know there’s a drop of anandamide in the amygdala, we know that hypervigilance. And listen, we may not be born in rattlesnake pits, but we create trauma in our lifestyles at a level far beyond whether it’s sexual or poverty or abuse, or physical trauma, trauma, trauma is real, it adjusts you, it adjusts you, your nervous system, it adjusts your autonomics. And, again, this is the difference. You and I may be the same age, we may have similar, you know, similar education, similar behaviors, but based on the trauma that we’ve come through, we have to do things differently, it’ll affect us differently. And again, no judging is less. This is one of the cool things I’ve learned. The top of top three religious orders going on, when we look at Christianity, Judaism, or, or Hinduism, and Muslim. They all reject judgment, you judge, there’s a cost to it. And you have to recognize that. So this is one of the things I love about good religion when it’s practiced. Now, growing up a Southern Baptist, we judge quite pretty well. And frankly, I’ve moved away from my religious practice to a more spiritual practice. You know, I grew up Southern Baptist, and my wife grew up Catholic. So between guilt and judgment, we had them covered. And a big part of what we’ve had to do is move away from some of these religious practices, and focus on our spiritual beliefs. Which means rejecting the judgment. And that’s a big part of it. So I completely agree with you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I mean, it’s apropos to what we’re talking about, really, because we’re talking about heart rate variability, and you cannot be dominated by stress hormones and be very adaptive. And that doesn’t come out of the bottle or diet, but it comes out of your thought processes, your emotions, your mindfulness, all of the above. Yeah, great conversation, Don, as far as what’s next, I always like to ask what’s, what’s next for you. Or what little life lessons have you learned since the last time that we talked?   Don Moxley: Well, so what’s next for us as we’re getting this project launched? You know, we’re trying to get our company through Black Friday, you know, so we’re a week, you know, we’re a week out of thanksgiving. So Black Friday’s a week from now, we got to get through that we’re gonna launch mode and method and HRV plus the beginning of December. During that time, I traveled to several conferences and speak and present at a couple of conferences. So we’re gonna get this launch. But at the same time, I’m starting to research other terpene-based therapeutic properties, you know, so we’re working with some other companies. We’re working with other formulators to look at, okay, what can we do to improve the human experience? Again, I’ve talked about this before, I have a personal mission of helping individuals understand change, that leads to the reduction of suffering, and the promotion and the betterment of, well, people, that’s kind of what I do daily. So, you know, a big part of this, you know, understanding when when when Daniel deeds called me two and a half years, almost three years ago and said, What do you know about a toffee G? And I said, I have a passive understanding about he said, What do you know about sperm and I’m, like, never heard of it. So you know, doing that dive into sperm iodine and understanding it at a molecular level and partnering with a company that uses such great science. One of the things I love is that we do have some competition out there in the market, some of it legitimate, some of it illegitimate, but they all mentioned our research. You know, it’s our research that’s driving this. And so I that’s an exciting place to be, you know, we’re launching mode and method we’re taking what has been kind of a life’s adventure. It’s a life’s adventure for me, you know, being in sports science, understanding HRV being able to apply it moving into cannabis getting a good education on cannabinoids and terpenes and the endocannabinoid system, how it works, and now being with a nutritional company to bring a product to market. It has been wonderful for me. I mean, I mean, how does it get? How does it get better than that? So we’re going to continue that. And, you know, if I showed you my desk, it’s a mess because it’s covered with different things that we’re trying to figure out. And that’s what I get to do.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I appreciate your help. I think I have an intro in terms of a suggestion for maybe research design, which we could talk about afterward, but always grateful. And it’s the mode method, that internet site, but it’s the mode and method, the company, is that correct? It’s   Don Moxley: Mode and method. The website is mode method.com. Mode method.com.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right.   Don Moxley: I’m not sure if we got and or not, but the mode method does not will certainly get you there. And again, fill it in, we’re going to do some research projects. So we’re working with a group called Heads Up health, which can aggregate wearable data. So we have at least two research studies. And I don’t know if there’s a guy by name of Joel Jamison out there, that’s a real Silverback in the HRV space. Joel and I when we were up in Northwest Washington, Joel and I got together for lunch. Joel is a pilot. And then we went to lunch, he said meet me at this airport, and he flies in his helicopter, we can his helicopter and fly over to another airport. So that was certainly interesting. But working with people like that, it’s just been it’s been pretty cool.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Now it’s great, it’s great to see the field of longevity and health optimization advanced and use more natural things that were once tabooed. At some point, now we see that they aren’t so bad. So we’ll think about part four, which is part three. So we’ll think about Part Four at another time. But thanks. And then I’ll give the listeners my code so that when they go into that site, they’ll be able to I’ll put that in the show notes and wish you and your wife and your family the most success going forward.   Don Moxley: Thanks. And if people have questions, if you go to the website, there’s a section there where you can ask questions. You can get a hold of me. So as we work our way through this, we’re pretty available. So if you have questions or things like that, you know, reach out to us. Let us know.   Dr. Joel Rosen:  Awesome. All right, Don, you have a great rest of your day.   Don Moxley: Thanks. So we’ll see you soon.   If you are interested in getting HRV+ , go to https://modemethod.com/ and use discount Rosen15 to save 15% If you would like to try spermidine life, we have a discount code to save 10% go here: https://spermidinelife.us/ and use the code ROSEN10 The post What Are Actually The Best Nutritional Supplement to Skyrocket And Cure Your HRV appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their energy back quickly. And today, I’m excited to be joining forces here with Beth Shirley, who is a registered pharmacist at CCN. And she has developed expertise as a pharmacist and certified clinical nutritionist during her 40-plus-year career. Her specialties include stress-induced hormone imbalance, intestinal dysfunction, autoimmune and chronic inflammatory issues, and detoxification, something I’m excited to talk to her about is nutrigenomics. And the supernormal oxidative stress, which I was gonna ask you what that is, Beth, after I introduce you, you’re a pioneer in the cutting edge of the evolution of what has now become the integrative pharmacy, where the junction between traditional pharmacy and the clinical use of nutritional supplements, but I could probably go on and on. But I want to get to the heart of the matter. And that’s nitric oxide. So thank you so much for being here today.   Beth Shirley: Thank you for having me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So why don’t you maybe I always like to ask our guests a little bit about your health journey. Maybe you didn’t have your health challenges. Or maybe you did. But what inspired you Beth to go down the firstly being trained as a pharmacist, but then getting into clinical nutrition? And then going into the world of, I guess, integrative medicine, what, what was your evolution or your Genesis for that?   Beth Shirley: Well, I became a pharmacist because I thought I was going to help people. And after 20 years of seeing people come back sicker, and sicker on more and more drugs. In 1997, I became a certified clinical nutritionist. And I became the pharmacist to go to if you wanted to get off meds or not go down a road, to begin with. And along that same route to what would steer me into that is, when I was 37, I was depressed, and I went to the doctors and all they had was depressants, and I thought that for a couple of years, and then I thought, you know, then I went on him. And then after I hit 40, I was gone. You know, there’s something else going on here. And so that’s when I read the book, what your doctor may not tell you about menopause by Dr. John Lee. And it taught me about bioidentical progesterone. And I started using that. And notice within like, nine months, I was off the antidepressants, and I had a progesterone deficiency, not Paxil deficiency. So that all happened kind of at the same time, you know, about 1996. And so since then, I’ve been just taking care of the physiological process, supporting physiological processes, not doing anti this and anti that, because the body wants us to be healthy. And since 2009, I’ve been in the nitric oxide space. And once you start learning about the power of circulation in microcirculation, you will, you will know that this is the base of everything. If you’ve got impaired circulation and microcirculation, it doesn’t matter what else you’re doing, nothing’s gonna get to where it needs to go.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I’ve talked about to my audience before in terms of, if you’re in a room that doesn’t have very much oxygen, water, food, or I guess exposure to the cold, the one that you want the most is the oxygen. And if you’re not using oxygen for energy production, you’re using oxygen for oxidation. It’s almost like you’re instead of getting an income, you have an expense and it can create a Demand and supply problem in your body. Just an aside, though curious, in your wanting to help people become a pharmacist. I’m just kind of curious, when was it along the way that you were realizing how deep and like how long into your practice that you realize that This isn’t helping people with what you were doing?   Beth Shirley: Well, I was a pharmacist for 20 years before I figured out that this just I mean, it that that was all combined with my health issues, where all they had was pharmaceuticals to treat me and that’s not what was going on. So I wasn’t being helped myself. And neither were all these people that are coming into the pharmacy. They weren’t being helped.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And so as far as you alluded to the fact that typically the paradigm for pharmaceuticals is to block The mode of action whereas potentially hormone support or understanding the physiology and and looking at endogenous production of nitric oxide for signaling and blood flow and oxygen delivery, is more supportive. So let’s maybe springboard off of that Beth and talk about what we know about nitric oxide for the person that doesn’t know what it is. What is it? And why is it so important?   Beth Shirley: Well, nitric oxide is a basic gas along with oxygen and carbon dioxide for the body, it’s nitrogen and oxygen, it’s just two molecules, and oh, so it governs circulation microcirculation, which is important because cells can’t be more than two cells away from a functioning microcapillary. If they’re more than two cells away from a functioning microcapillary, they or that microcapillary is not open and delivering oxygen, glucose, and nutrients the tissue and cell will die. So nitric oxide is important for our immune response, which is so critical in today’s environment, it’s important for mitochondrial biogenesis. It’s important for mitochondrial health. And this is where your cholesterol gets metabolized into pregnenolone. It’s important for your neurotransmitter balance, it’s important for sexual function in both men and women. It’s important to decrease inflammation and oxidative stress. To like it increases telomerase, which has everything to do with aging. It just touches every single physiological process, it’s important for your kidneys, for your ears for hearing for your hormone balance nitric oxide, it is essential in the brain to make your LH RH luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone, which then goes on to produce your LH which goes down to your testes for your testosterone, your ovaries for your progesterone and your estrogen. So nitric oxide is involved with every single physiological function needed for the glute four receptors to translocate and bring glucose into the cell.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Wherever oxygen is needed for ATP production, it plays an important role, which is pretty much every physiological function in the body.   Beth Shirley: Well, actually, the hemoglobin has to have nitric oxide hooked onto it to be able to deliver oxygen to the cells. You could even be supersaturated with oxygen. And if you don’t, if you’re nitric oxide deficient, you’re not being able to deliver that oxygen to the cells. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as why, and I’ve had Nathan, as I mentioned, Nathan Brian on a podcast before but explain to our listener why this such an important compound or is not being taught or they haven’t heard about or potentially their doctor hasn’t mentioned it. Why is that?   Beth Shirley: I am thinking that actually because it touches so many physiological processes it does so much, that it’s too overwhelming, an idea to even understand because it does touch everything. And people don’t understand. I mean, cardiovascular disease is still the number one killer in the United States. Nitric oxide deficiency. Diabetes, number two, is nitric oxide deficiency. You know, I, I? You know, I don’t know. I don’t know why people don’t want to understand what is at the base of all of these physiological processes.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean, I don’t I mean, I know that the Nobel Prize for toffee G was recently awarded in 217. And we say that the time that it takes for the ivory towers to sort of hit the street can be something of a 17-year cycle. And I know that the Nobel Prize for nitric oxide discovery wasn’t 99 its?   Beth Shirley:  It was 98 almost 200 That wasn’t studied A lot. Yeah. The patient is there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s there. It’s there. And it’s interesting because you would think now and it’s a slippery slope in terms of the subject with the pandemic and virals and low lows that nitric oxide would be the first line of defense. So I guess the question would be so. Right, right, whether we know it or not.   Beth Shirley: But talking about it for the last two and a half years, right, when this whole thing started, there is the nitric oxide connection. And I’ve been, I’ve been posting about it on LinkedIn, and Facebook.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, so So I guess the question would be, why would nitric oxide be depleted or low? Or why would we not have enough and what makes it problematic for being able to make it in the first place?   Beth Shirley: Well, we make nitric oxide through two different pathways. One is the arginine nos, nitric oxide synthase. enzyme. This enzyme is really sensitive, its pH-dependent is oxygen dependent. Hypoxia shuts down a lot of things shut it down. And I’ll talk about that in just a second. And the other is the nitrate to nitrite to nitric oxide pathway, where we consume the nitrates that get absorbed, circulate, and get concentrated in the salivary glands. salivary glands release the nitrate and we’ve got good anaerobic bacteria on our tongue, that will reduce that nitrate to nitrite. Nitrate is the immediate precursor to nitric oxide. So this pathway, only to I mean, it’s not so dependent on all of these other environmental factors like the NOS enzyme pathway. So what affects that is age by the time we’re 40 the nos pathway is only functioning about 50%. By the time we’re 60, It’s only functioning about 15%. Diet, the standard American diet devoid of nitrate-rich veggies and essential cofactors and nutrients, lack of exercise, medications, antibiotics, antifungals, and depressant birth control pills and Said’s PPIs PPIs interfere with the production of nitric oxide through both pathways EMFs EMFs increase oxidative stress, oxidative stress uncouples the NOS enzyme and when nos are uncoupled, it becomes a superoxide generator, not a nitric oxide generator, pollution, glyphosate, genetic snips, and not just your nos snips, anything that might increase oxidative stress, like your so D snips, catalase snips, anything that interferes with the production of BH for your QD PR, your DHFR. If you have any MTHFR snips, you are by definition nitric oxide deficient, because you’re not making your BH four BH fours that couple that nos enzyme. And the big one is stress, stress interferes with the production of nitric oxide. So it didn’t stress interferes like with Sonos, your inducible nos that’s why when we’re stressed we get sick easier. And it interferes with the e nos endothelial nos. That’s why when we’re stressed we have more cardiovascular issues, hypertension, strokes, and mice. So there are a lot of things that go into the production of nitric oxide. And that nos enzyme, but the nitrate to nitrite to nitric oxide pathway can pick up the slack. So I’m gonna say we’ve got a good oral microbiome. And the beautiful thing about nitrate supplementation is it helps rebuild microbiomes in the gut, in the oral cavity on the skin, in the vagina, and everywhere you’ve done an oral microbiome nitrate supplementation helps rebuild that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, you had a lot there. And there are so many things My head’s thinking of what I want to ask you, but one of the things that stick out with someone probably has heard if they’re aware of nitric oxide is the nitric oxide uncoupling. And I think that’s an important springboard to talk about. So you mentioned BH two or BH four is the, I guess the nutrient or the compound that helps to make the nitric oxide from endogenously or from the de novo pathway with a combination, of proteins to be able to do that? Yeah. to write and having the genetic susceptibilities of potentially MTHFR or DHFR, or QTP, the other types of genetic snips, I guess the question for you would be, why if someone because I’ve heard this a lot anecdotally with clients is, well, I take mth I take methyl folate, and I still have cold hands and extremities, I have brain fog, I have lack of libido and desire and motivation. I guess the question is, why does it not necessarily translate nitric oxide uncoupling a little bit more in detail, and then why does just not taking methyl folate at high doses create more nitric oxide reductionistic well?   Beth Shirley: Just addressing VH four isn’t going to address all those other factors that I talked about, like diet, stress, pollution, EMF, and glyphosate. So just addressing the BH four isn’t going to address all of those other things too. But the beautiful thing about nitrate supplementation is it increases your production of BH four, which helps couple that nos, decreasing the superoxide production. So the three main ways we make superoxide in our body is nos uncoupling. And the NADPH oxidase enzyme and uncoupled electron transport chain. But supporting the nitrate to nitrite nitric oxide pathway addresses all of those issues. So nitrate helps increase the BH which helps recover nos, decreasing superoxide production nitrite and nitric oxide downregulate, your NADPH oxidase enzyme that gets upregulated by all so many things. And then nitrided nitric oxide help where we couple that electron transport chain without interfering with the production of ATP. So you’ve got to address a lot of things. I know we talked a little bit about that NADPH oxidase enzyme, this enzyme gets upregulated with so many environmental factors, iron mTOR, sulfites, inflammatory cytokines, mold, I mean, you name it, it gets upregulated by it. But what happens when there’s NADPH oxidase enzyme gets upregulated? What it does is preferentially steal that NADPH from all these other necessary processes, like fatty acid synthesis, hormone synthesis, and phase one detoxification, you can’t regenerate your oxidized glutathione plus you don’t like it’s the electron donor for the NOS enzyme. So you want, like there’s just so many environmental factors that are upregulated NADPH oxidase EMF, we’re swimming in the sea of EMF. And that’s how EMF does its damage, it stimulates that NADPH oxidase enzyme. So we’ve got down-regulate.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Yeah. And I thank you for sharing that as a very elaborate, but yet succinct way of explaining what happens with that NADPH oxidase upregulation. Another one, which I’m sure you know very well is in terms of the H MOX and recycling heme so that you’re able to reuse that iron, which ultimately, it’s like an all or none, right? It’s, it’s like a domino effect where I use the analogy, if you’re only making interest payments, you’re never cutting into the debt, and you keep falling further and further behind. And if you’re not having that NADPH to do its day job and recycle glutathione and BH four, and H MOX and everything else in between, you’re increasing even further than NADPH steel and creating a perfect storm.   Beth Shirley: So that’s inflammation. Oxidative.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right exactly. Which then goes on with from what I’ve learned through Bob it goes on to stimulate mast cells, which then ultimately stimulates your HPA axis which creates cytokines which create histamine which causes core so many domino effects for sure.   Beth Shirley: Well, guess what down regulates mast cell degranulation nitrite and enteric oxide.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. Yeah, yes. And it gets depleted when it’s upregulated I guess as well, right? So so as far as well What is it about the well that I mean? The foods that are rich in nitrates and supplementation, can you maybe get into how what we can do for that?   Beth Shirley: So the high nitrate foods your arugula, spinach, butter, lettuce, celery, Bok choi, beets, and all of them have the all of them except for arugula have the potential to have to oxalate issues in your sensitive population. However, rubellite is the highest nitrate veggie without the oxalate issue, or the Berkeley life professional. Two capsules will give you about the same nitrate concentration as five ounces of spin eight or seven ounces of beets. And this will give three to 400 milligrams of nitrates which the study shows that it takes to make the physiological changes, like the changes in blood pressure, or the changes in exercise endurance and, and decrease in recovery time. And that’s what you get with two capsules of the Berkeley. So I usually recommend having those capsules or Berkeley and then high nitrate and veggies at lunch and dinner to help sustain that level. And you can check your levels with a test trip. This test drip is a saliva test drip, it tests the nitrite concentration of your saliva. So it’s testing your ability to take that nitrate and reduce it to nitrite. So it’s dependent on your oral microbiome. So usually, you can do two capsules, and then within an hour, an hour and a half, test your saliva. And you should be able to start seeing that test strip term. If you don’t see it turn that’s telling me you’ve got something going on with your oral microbiome. So you start asking questions. Are you using mouthwash? Are you using fluoride toothpaste? Fluoride is anti-microbial. Are you using whitening toothpaste with hydrogen peroxide? Are you on any antibiotics? Are you on any PPIs? Do you maybe have an infection somewhere in that the oral cavity? But the beautiful thing about nitrate supplementation is you are going to be rebuilding that oral microbiome which then helps rebuild your intestinal microbiome.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Hey, you know, as far as a couple of questions that came out of that, I’m glad that you brought up the oxalates because they’re yet another NADPH oxidase stimulator that further decreases your nitric oxide. But as far as a lot of people will ask, Well, what about the beets in the formula? Are their oxalates in there, maybe you can assure them that there are.   Beth Shirley: There are only about 10 milligrams of fermented beetroot in there, you’re not going to get oxalates out of 10 milligrams of fermented beetroot. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. I think that’s an important point to add. And then the other one is, as far as which is great. Thank you for sharing in terms of if you’re not holding that positive marker that’s indicating with the test strips that you’re producing, you’re producing nitric oxide, that you have to look at the terrain, which is the mouth which by itself, even that is very helpful for the gateway being breached into the immune system, which so many people miss, right?   Beth Shirley: The immune system, the cardiovascular system, diabetes, this oral microbiome is connected with everything.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Do you ever just as an aside, because you also mentioned how important pH is for being able to make that nitric oxide and is a measure of tissue oxygenation. And I guess if we have a lot of oxidative stress and free radical production, our pH levels are going to be lower. We’re not going to have as much tissue oxygenation. One of the things that I’ve advocated for is at-home pH testing as a pharmacist because I got a lot of backlash on when I posted that on social media from kidney nephrologist Dr. Saying I don’t know what I’m talking about because that isn’t helpful.   Beth Shirley: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So So like any kind of chronic issue any diabetes or any kind of chronic inflammatory issue, you’re going to be more acidic. And this uncouples that nos in time, there’s less oxygen, being able to be carried to tissue Right, you knew what you’re talking about.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So thank you. So that means a lot coming from you. So as far as the other thing that Nathan talked about when we interviewed him, was with the de novo pathway which does implicate more of our genetic susceptibilities or challenges to be able to make nitric oxide, a lot of farms. Pharmaceuticals, a lot of supplement companies will tell you the benefits of arginine and mention that Arginine is never that weight-limiting step.   Beth Shirley: Because we get enough in our diet, maybe you can explain a little bit of arginine, there’s very, very rarely an arginine deficiency. You know, the COA, the binding coefficient for arginine to the NOS enzyme is low, it doesn’t take much to saturate that enzyme. And the cell doesn’t even take in arginine to feed that nos pathway. The cell will take up citrulline to make its arginine to feed that pathway. But giving excess arginine to somebody with their nos being uncoupled, increases oxidative stress. It arginine has many pathways that can go down not just your nos pathway, it can increase your hDmA a symmetric dimethyl arginine, which is connected to all-cause mortality, and it can increase ammonia, which is connected with you know, kidney function. So there are more pathways arginine can go down than just your nos pathway. And there’s rarely a deficiency of IT. And especially if somebody’s over 40, or if somebody’s got any kind of chronic issue, I do not recommend arginine supplementation.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Because this is gonna be uncoupled. And then you’re gonna make it.   Beth Shirley: Yeah, it can’t, it can’t use it. So it’s gonna be on other pathways. And those pathways aren’t necessarily healthy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? I mean, I’ve had clients that have done there, you know, their research and tried to do arginine supplementation for my more nitric oxide. And I think Bob Miller even talked about some of the bad press that arginine gets in the research is that you have, they never really, I guess, controlled for which subjects have uncoupled nitric oxide and is that arginine driving superoxide instead of nitric oxide production, one of the things we talked about before we got on which I think it’s important for maybe a little more of a sophisticated listener, but also for myself to kit understand a little bit more. Because the next question and some people’s teaching has been, then that nitric oxide when it’s uncoupled, and you’ll take arginine will produce superoxide, and then that superoxide will turn into peroxy nitrite. Maybe you can dispel that and why that’s not a thing.   Beth Shirley: Yeah, the peroxynitrite nonissue is one of my favorite subjects. So nitric oxide, when combined with superoxide, makes a molecule they call peroxy nitrite. However, when you’re making superoxide, you’re not making as much nitric oxide because superoxide shuts down nitric oxide production. So by optimizing nitric oxide, you’re down-regulating the production of superoxide. So you’re decreasing peroxynitrite production. So remember, those three main ways that our body makes superoxide nos uncoupling NADPH oxidase and uncoupled electron transport chain, and supporting the nitrate to nitrite nitric oxide pathway down-regulates all of those ways we make superoxide. And if you’re downregulated superoxide production, you’re down-regulating peroxynitrite production. However, peroxy nitrite is on a will there. There’s a new paradigm emerging in the nitric oxide research community, showing that 90 to 95% of that peroxy nitrite, ISON rises to an O three, which is nitrate and inert. And then in some of my other talks, I talk about all of actually the beneficial actions of peroxynitrite. So, I want you like when you read these studies about peroxy nitrite, I want you to understand they’re not measuring peroxy nitrite they’re measuring nitrotyrosine and they’re assuming peroxy nitrite was there. And that assumption keeps getting repeated and repeated and repeated like it’s its truth now. However, just because you see nitric oxide as metabolites around tissue damage, and cellular damage, does that mean That is what’s causing the damage? Just because there are always cops around a crime scene doesn’t mean the cops are there doing the damage. They’re there to help clean it up. Nitric oxide can scavenge all these free radicals, they’re there to help clean up that damage.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So as far as back to the canary in the coal mine in the sense that when you do the nitric oxide test strips, and you’re seeing that you’re not holding, or you’re not making that nitric oxide, or that nitrate, the nitrate and as far as the health of the mouth, once you say you, you, you disinfect it, you look at some of the things that may have been depleting the ability to to make that nitric oxide and you continue to support it with getting the nitrates with the supplementation, do you see that start holding longer even if you don’t do it an hour and a half after I’m curious on that.   Beth Shirley: Next bait has a half-life of six to eight hours. Okay, right. And so I like doing a couple of capsules in the morning and then adding some high nitrate veggies at lunch and dinner to help sustain that level. But in people with a lot of oxidative stress, you may need more. If you’re trying to do something like get somebody off blood pressure meds or not go down that route, you might need two capsules twice a day, in addition to some high nitrate virtues, for sexual function in both men and women, I recommend two capsules in the morning and another two capsules on our before the activity. So you know, use the strip and you can tell whether you need more. And then, you know, like during different environmental challenges, you might need more likes, if everybody around you is sick, you might need more. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I think it’s I mean, I love that you brought it up in terms of that wasn’t aware of necessarily when you test and you’re not holding that it’s more of the ecology of the oral biome. And I was extrapolating that too, yeah.   Beth Shirley: Dependent on your microbiome. which is a good subset   Dr. Joel Rosen: Of the whole body of everything that up-regulates your NADPH and EMFs and glutamates and sulfates and everything molds and iron dysregulation and histamine and stress and viral loads and il six, I mean, everything that that does that. So as far as the topic that we were talking a little bit about which is not necessarily understood is the different kinds of nitric oxide. So you have inducible and endothelial and two and no three, maybe talk a little bit about that because what I had maybe learned was that no two might be upregulated and it might suppress nos three like what are they why do we need to know about them? How do they work? What is the deal with them?   Beth Shirley: Yeah, well nos one neuronal no is mainly concentrated in the CNS and the brain. Nos two inducible nos, this is your immune response. And nos three your endothelial Nasus is with the nitric oxide produced in the endothelial cells. And when I nos does get upregulated when you’re when you’re trying to fight something it does downregulate your Enos and your handoffs. But another beautiful thing about nitrate supplementation, it down-regulates and up-regulated Imams. However, there’s this same kind of uncoupling issue here too. So, a lot of times when you see that they start talking about too much nitric oxide because I nos is upregulated. Read carefully those studies. Because if there is a lot of oxidative stress and inflammation going on, that I nos is uncoupled to. So this damaged tissue and cellular damage might not be due to that upregulated nitric oxide is more than likely due to upregulated, uncoupled Sonos which is producing superoxide. That can’t be quenched.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it makes sense. So, what question Can I have you to know the methodology or at least the biochemistry of the NADPH steel? And things like iron oxidation and mTOR that up-regulate that and steal away the NADPH that doesn’t allow the nitric oxide to be made and make more superoxide? As far as where do you find the antioxidant response elements come into play there? Because I think it’s kind of confusing for people where, you know, with Denon Harmon and the whole free radical theory of aging, and understanding that okay, I know I need antioxidants, but at the same time, I do need a certain amount of oxidative stress to signal and create some kind of immune response. I guess the question is, where does the signaling of the antioxidant response elements come into play with nitric oxide? Do you find that there’s a Goldilocks zone of doing it this way? Or do it that way? Is your insight on that?   Beth Shirley: Well, in today’s environmental challenges, the idea of too much in oxidants is pretty nonexistent. Because everything is up-regulating that NADPH oxidase I mean, everything. And so too many antioxidants just haven’t been the case for quite some time. But nitric oxide like supporting that nitrate to nitrite and nitric oxide, you know it, scavenges the use of free radicals. It can scavenge the free radicals from the Fenton reaction, your LH, and your Fe three plus, it can down-regulate Myeloperoxidase, which decreases your hydrogen peroxide production down-regulates xanthine oxidase which decreases superoxide production. So supporting that nitrate to nitrite and nitric oxide pathway actually, helps get all of these inflammatory processes under control, and not so out of control.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, that’s a good answer. So as far as just to recap, being able to get rid of the things that would reduce the nitrate-reducing capacity in the body such as PPIs, mouthwash, and antibiotic use, being able to supplement with something like Berkeley life that’s going to supply the nitrates to be able to be produced in the first place. That diet that’s rich with nitrates, although being aware of the Oxalic consumption, and a lot of them, the only one being arugula that doesn’t have that. But at the same time, when you take the Berkeley life, you’re not getting the oxalates out of the small percentage of beetroots. The question I have to you which I find it being more and more a catch 22 When people are exhausted and burnt out, and all of this is going haywire, and they’re not making energy, and the electron transport chain is uncoupled and you’re producing way more superoxides, is the ability to do movements and high-intensity movements, even if it’s for short periods. I’d be curious to know what you think the role of that is, and or, you know, blood flow restriction type things I used to see those be effective for nitric oxide production or even getting some kind of muscle contraction and even for the most challenged person that has some issues with all of this, is that something else that you’re advocating?   Beth Shirley: Yes, because supporting that nitrate known to peroxide pathway, our muscles or myoglobin in our muscles can reduce that nitrite to nitric oxide on an as-needed basis. And that’s what we need when we’re exercising we need more oxygen and glucose nutrients being delivered. And just as importantly, we need the debris to be carried away. So supporting that pathway, you know, gives the raw material to the myoglobin that can reduce it further. The electron transport chain can reduce nitrite to nitric oxide when oxidative stress gets so far out of hand. It helps re-couple it. But most studies show it can recover out couple it without interfering with the production of ATP. So by even just supporting that pathway, you allow people to even do more movement than they were able to do before.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Right. And I think it’s important though To not resolve yourself have the responsibility of even if it’s, you know, just moving your arms to be able to get that blood flow, blood flow going. So, yeah, I know those are great insights as far as the superoxide. Because I think that’s a charged conversation now because of EMF and the stimulation of superoxides and how that ultimately will lead to NADPH oxidase overstimulation and then not being able to recycle your BH four, and then creating even more superoxide. Do you feel that with the minerals being so devoid in our soils, we’re ever going to be able to just supplement our take foods enough to rebuild the prerequisites for nitrates and nitric oxide production? Or do you feel that it’s something that we ultimately have to agree that we got to get it elsewhere? Exogenous Lee?   Beth Shirley: Well, the DASH diet, the Dietary Approaches to Stop hypertension, has about 12 to 1500 milligrams of nitrate per day. So the DASH diet has been used as medicine for cardiovascular disease very successfully. But it is quite a challenging diet to follow. I mean, you have to pay attention to the number of vegetables you’re eating. So as far as supplements, I think that there’s a, there’s a big place for what we write.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I’d be curious as to when was that study done. Because I’d be curious to know how much more the stress and NADPH oxidase confounding stimulation would deplete that nitric oxide at a like I guess, commence a rating, the amount that you would need that you’re getting out of the DASH diet for taking into consideration how much more stressed our life is with social media and with what’s going on in the world and what information we’re given or not given. And I don’t even know if it’s even possible to say, you know, to have a food that would be high enough, even if the dash studies show that it was   Beth Shirley: No, I agree, because we’re just overloaded, totally overloaded with oxidative stress, capacity. Capacity to increase.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. You know, one question actually, which wasn’t on my question list, which is sort of off the CUSP is. And I don’t know if I’m pronouncing it correctly, but ag Monte or ag totally product? Yes. Can you can you tell? I’m glad that I remembered it during this conversation. Could you tell me a little bit about what it used to be, I guess an ergogenic aid is used for exercisers and bodybuilders. Can you tell me a little bit about it?   Beth Shirley: human studies using it? There are no human studies. I mean, there are some animal and rodent studies. But I’m just I’m not a fan because it’s supposed to be stimulating. You’re not in time, along with the arginine and citrulline. I mean, there’s, you know, supplements that have the arginine citrulline and agmatine in it, that I’m just I’m not a fan. You’re still trying to make a dysfunctional uncoupled nos work and it’s just not going to.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. So I guess the takeaway for genomic practitioners like myself, especially with peroxy, and nitrite not being an issue is that genomic Lee speaking when you look when you do see these major nos one, two and three polymorphisms the de novo pathway isn’t necessarily even though we’re addressing it from lifestyle management and stress management and decreasing the NADPH oxidase stimulation isn’t the area that a practitioner is going to have the most bang for their buck implementation wise, it’s going to be more of the being able to produce it through the nitrate nitric pathway correct.   Beth Shirley: But then also know that that nitrate is going to help re-couple that nos. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So would help that pathway after all   Beth Shirley: Right, so you’re going to be decreasing oxidative stress. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: I’m curious to know as far as what you’re seeing is when someone takes Viagra and they don’t notice any improvement because you can’t save something that’s not there, meaning if your nitric oxide is uncoupled and taking something to keep the nitric oxide around longer, but it’s not there, is that still happening from a prescriptive point of view, doctors are still doing it scratching their head wondering, oh, I don’t know why that didn’t work.   Beth Shirley: And those drugs, the Viagra, the CLS, don’t work at about 50% of the men, precisely because you got to have enough nitric oxide to get the erection to begin with those drugs a PDE five inhibitors allow the nitric oxide to hang around a lot longer. But if you don’t have enough nitric oxide, to begin with, you’re not going to get an erection. And, you know, they’re not asking questions.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean, listen, it’s the reason you switch to your nutritional background to realize you’re making a difference because I, I see what I see harmful anecdotally with some of my toughest clients. And this is just an aside from the ones that have been taking benzodiazepines for so long. And all that oxidative stress that slows down that glutamate to GABA conversion is not allowing any of that excitatory neurotransmitter to get there. And then you’re trying to keep it around something around longer. That’s not being produced. It’s analogous to somewhat of the hope that Viagra is a magic wand and is going to fix all processes that inflammation and stress are causing in the first place. I think there are so many different types of meds that are ineffective that way and they’re just throwing it at the wall and hoping to see what sticks. I mean, is that sort of what you got out of that way of practicing?   Beth Shirley: Yeah, when nitric oxide is involved with anxiety and depression, anxiety and depression are and are modulated by BDNF. Nitric oxide modulates BDNF, increasing neuronal neurogenesis, and synaptic plasticity, nitric oxide actually can increase GABA in the brain. So a lot of times when people start doing nitrate supplementation, they start feeling calmer. They’re not so anxious, or not so depressed.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Yeah. And once again, you know, the biggest stress in the world is not having enough oxygen. Right? And if you’re not having enough.   Beth Shirley: Yeah, nitric oxide hooks onto that hemoglobin to release the oxygen to the cells and tissues. Right? Well, that’s what.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean. Like I’m saying like, if you’re not respiring, at the cellular level, which is dependent on that nitric oxide, being able to be there to do that, then you’re going to be more in a, a, I guess, a glycolytic. Stress excitatory neurotransmitters for the short term is not a problem. But when you’re keeping that button stuck in the on position forever, it just becomes, you know, so I guess impactful at the autonomic level where you start to see people not be able to regulate their blood pressure and they’re and their heart rate and their temperature. And now that’s when you know that it’s gotten so so bad. So I guess the question would be if someone just like if you can hold that nitric oxide level an hour and a half later, and we know that that that oral bio meets a dressing, same thing in terms of a check if you take Viagra or Cialis that helps to keep nitric oxide around longer and it doesn’t work then you have a challenge there to know that okay, something’s not being done that you need to address is that correct?   Beth Shirley: Eisley? You exactly you know, like, erectile dysfunction is endothelial dysfunction. And it’s usually one of the first signs of an underlying cardiovascular complication. So you need to address it. There are a lot of things going on. It’s not just because you can’t get interaction. Okay, your whole cardiovascular system is impaired.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Interesting. Yeah. And then I guess just one, thank you. I’m using your brain here as things start coming into my head. So one of the other things that I see a lot too is the coenzymes and NAD NADH NADP, NADPH, acetyl, CO a, and Koay. As far as NAD, it seems to be sort of the nutrient your use is there any correlation between nitric oxide and those and those coenzymes especially in terms of NAD or NADPH, or not? NADPH but NADH.   Beth Shirley: Yeah, I’ve got a lot of people that are on the Berkeley and add some NADH or NADPH. to that. Okay, you know, because the nitrates help recover the NOS. And then he or NADPH is what donates the electron. I have a lot of people that are in that combination.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Stacking it, you know, because what the reason I asked that question is that I’ve found it that NADPH oxidase is just super like not only upregulated but as you mentioned, super upregulated right there in a major crisis. And they take NAD, it a lot of the times will feed a lot more of that. superoxide. And so I use that as a gotta-be.   Beth Shirley: Careful. You’ve got to be gotta be careful. Yeah. Especially on all these people that are doing the IV and EDS. Right, right. Oh, really? Look into, okay, why did this person get so sick? Right? Oh, yeah, right. Well, you just better come back and get more you need more, you know, you need to down-regulate that NADPH oxidase. Right. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: But so the follow-up question is, there could be a challenge with just going super dosing on the NAD because that NADPH is upregulated takes that nutrient spills out more free radicals. But is there a problem ever taking too much of the nitrates to produce nitric oxide? Is there an upper limit on that as well?   Beth Shirley: Well, as I said, the DASH diet has 12 to 1500 milligrams, and that’s like taking two capsules four to five times a day. So you’re not Odeon it with the DASH diet. So I don’t have anybody that has taken more than two capsules three times a day. It’s just not necessary when you start checking your levels. You know so yeah.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I have a client that I’m thinking of specifically who’s having a tough time. And I feel like I’d love to be able to push that titration up to as much as we can, with the nitric oxide boosting nutrients to see what kind of results we can get with that. But it’s always, you know, somewhat of a trial, right? Because you want to see how, like the oral biome, you can’t just expect the nitrate nutrient to get that nitric oxide produced. If all those other expenses are draining the account in the first place, I would imagine it’s the same thing with just doing that with someone who’s super challenged with upregulation of these stressors that are depleting it and uncoupling it or making more superoxide in the first place as well. Right.   Beth Shirley: So yeah, but the beautiful thing about nitrate supplementation is how you rebuild that moral microbiome. Right? which when coupled, you know, don’t give up if it’s not changing right away, don’t give up just hang in there. It will change. I’ve had a couple of people telling me that, that we would never get their strip to change because it had never changed before with anything else. And then it was never going to change. Well. It did. Right. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Mean, and also to, just from what I see is, they’re so close yet so far, it’s like they got a tumbler lock, and there’s seven out of the eight things and they’re just missing that one thing if you’re doing a lot of really good foundational work, but you layer in that nitrate. Now it’s missing that eight tumblers and now everything is synergistically getting better. But if you weren’t doing that legwork beforehand, you can expect just that nitrate to be the magic wand if you’re not addressing stressors and diet.   Beth Shirley: Yeah, it’s not, it’s not the magic wand however it is the base. If you don’t have good circulation and microcirculation and doesn’t matter what else you’re doing, it’s not going to get to where it needs to go. So it’s the base of everything else that you’re going to be doing. You want anything else that you’re taking or doing to be able to get to where it needs about right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So and then we talked a little bit before we got started in terms of if you listen you know morally at Robins with the root cause and bioavailable copper Ansarullah plasm and being able to move iron out of tissues, I guess what is this a chicken or the egg thing or is this more of the nitric oxide is dependent on the copper is dependent on the nitric oxide or the Surulere plasm. Where do you see that relationship tying into all of this?   Beth Shirley: Well, nitric oxide deficiency increases the Fenton reaction. And when you replenish the nitric oxide you’re been able to scavenge Euro H and your Fe three bluffs. So sometimes when people have this iron just regulation and it’s not just the iron dysregulation, it’s also the nitric oxide deficiency too.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Could you say, though, at the same time, it’s a two-way street where the Fenton reactions deplete the nitric oxide?   Beth Shirley: Availability? Yeah, it is. It’s depleting it because the nitric oxide is scavenged and that Fe is three plus. Right, so takes it out of being bioavailable. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay. So I mean, I’ve talked to Morley, which I’ve talked to before, and he would say, Well, that’s because you don’t have the bioavailable copper to move the iron that creates the Fenton reactions that deplete the nitric oxide.   Beth Shirley: Yeah, I can’t go into that right now.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s fine. I appreciate it. So as far as the bottom line is, is that you need to address the entire picture, right, and you need to rebuild the ability to make nitric oxide. And you need to get enough nutrients in your soils and your foods to be able to get your minerals up to drive up your pH so that you’re getting oxygenation. And you’re you have good life purposes and belonging and purpose. And all of the above. I don’t think there’s a free lunch anywhere out of there in that regard.   Beth Shirley: No, it takes work. It takes work.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as the question that I always ask people at the end of the podcast interview, Beth, there’s knowing what you know, now and you certainly know, a super, super amount of information. And I’m probably sure along the way, you always have new information. But what discoveries or what you’ve learned over the years that you would have told the best that didn’t understand this that would have made a bigger difference or a better improvement in your health? I’m always curious to know what my interviewee’s answers are to that.   Beth Shirley: Well, the pharmacy I worked at. So the last one I was there for 15 years, was right next door to dry cleaners, and my office shared are all with the dry cleaners. And that’s when they were using all these perks. So everything that I had known, in functional medicine allowed me to stay there way years longer than I should have. So by the time I left there in 2012, I was, really, really sick. Those chemicals are solvents, they dissolve fat. And they tore my brain. So I couldn’t even work for a few years. So I would tell myself to get the hell out of there, like yours before I did. Because it just totally changed my life.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Wow, I’m glad you identified that and were able to overcome that. I think it’s just an epitome of what it is in our world that we have to be super vigilant of the water. We drink the food we eat the air we breathe.   Beth Shirley: Yeah. I mean, everything. I mean, I always do an IV, vitamin C IV, glutathione, I, vol. Everything was making me sicker. And I’m the one on one of those that got sicker on glutathione. Then without but has to do with that nitric oxide deficiency. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And that NADPH not being available for recycling glutathione makes more superoxide Oh, interesting. Well, listen, Beth, I appreciate your time. You know, and I wish I would have listened to and I will listen to more of your recordings. And I know you’re doing your job of spreading the news on this important compound. What if people haven’t heard of you, Beth? And where did they go to learn more about what you do and where they could listen to the information you’ve put out already?   Beth Shirley: On LinkedIn, I post a lot of recent studies and I’ve been posting for the last two and a half years about the nitric oxide deficiency and this viral environment that we’re in on the Berkeley life professional page on YouTube. I have a lot of my webinars. And I go deep into the EMF. It’s, you know, I spent a lot of time and energy on that because that’s information they don’t want us to have. They don’t want that information out there. So that’s a good one. But there are quite a few pretty good ones on there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Excellent. All right, well, good. I’ll make sure that I’ll post links in the thread to where they can get access to you and we talked before we got started on how I could create a discount link so that we could pass savings onto the listener to try this out. I certainly think that they should get as their tools I always say tools in your toolkit, the nitric oxide testing kit to be able to see that and then also the nitric oxide boosting nutrients. And then maybe we didn’t get into it, but maybe you could just give me a quick little rundown. I know, there’s also serum and lotions. What are some of the other products that Berkeley life puts out to help boost nitric oxide levels?   Beth Shirley: Well, the nitric oxide serum is it’s a topical nitric oxide. So it’s increasing circulation and microcirculation just right at the skin level. So it’s good for wrinkles and is good for acne for discoloration for healing. And Dr. Brian made this specifically for his dad who’s a paraplegic who had some sores that his allopathic doctors told him that would never heal, ever. You know, and using this nitric oxide serum healed the sores. So it’s pretty cool stuff. So it’s one side of the serum is nitrite. The other side is vitamin C. And when you mix them, you’re making nitric oxide gas.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Interesting. Cool. Well, it’s, you know, I would say, as bad as the environment depletes our NADPH and uncouples, nitric oxide, we have all these cool new developments as well to combat a lot of these challenges. So there’s still hope out there. So anyways, Beth, I appreciate your time. And I’ll make sure I put the post where they can learn more about you and get some of the products from Berkeley life and I will make sure that I start listening more to the research you put out and or talk about and I want to thank you for your time today and wish you nothing but further success in the future.   Beth Shirley: Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank you.   If you would like to try Berkely life Nitric oxide booster and save 10% click here and use discount code DRJ10 The post Why Nitric Oxide Production Is Super Helpful: The Key To Fight Fatigue appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that we can get them their health back quickly. And today I’m excited to be joined by two by a seagull. He is the co-owner of promo life and pure oh three, which both specialize in health-related ozone products. Promo Life provides high-quality USA-made ozone therapy equipment and pure oh three provides high-quality USA-made organic ozonated oils. Tobias is the lead product developer for both companies. And he takes the time that’s needed to speak with his customers to figure out what is being demanded in the marketplace. He grew up in Montana and eventually settled in Arkansas, where he attended the University of Arkansas. And after college, he co-founded Purell three, while working for promo life and effect and settled into what he loves doing. The positive natural health influence that came from his parents was a big influence on his life. And he just is enjoying it, I guess wrapped up in the world of ozone. So Tobias, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate your time.   Tobias Segal: I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m excited because one of my actual coaching clients recommended that I do a podcast on ozone and I’m familiar with ozone. And what I wanted to do today was just give the listeners, especially those that are exhausted and burnt out and looking for answers beyond just what other supplements I gotta be taking or being told yet again, that there’s nothing wrong with them. So I wanted to just go down that world of ozone and the therapeutic benefits. But before we do that, you and I had a conversation about how you got started on it and the trials you’ve had or what you’ve seen with your father, so maybe give us a little insight on why you got involved in the world of ozone.   Tobias Segal: Yeah, no. So I mean, it did start with him, like him being fatigued and having energy issues. And so you know, and that seems to be such a struggle for so many people. And, you know, it took him a while to figure it out. I mean, of course, it was, you know, obviously had a lot to do with his adrenals he had some Candida issues, you know, what he had to focus on was, you know, fixing his diet, cleaning it up. But ultimately, all that stuff works. But, you know, sometimes it doesn’t fully fix the problem, you have to almost add something extra to make it work. And so he was doing some research, he gravitated toward the idea of ozone. And this is like in the early 2000s. This is like way before people even really knew about it. And so I mean, it was becoming somewhat, you know, known but very rare compared to now. And so, you know, he started doing these things with ozone where you add ozone to the body, you can do this thing called rectal insufflation is weird as that sounds. I mean, a lot of people, you know, do enemas. So it’s essentially the same thing, but we’re using gas instead. So he did rectal deflations. And he also did this thing called ozone saunas, which is also referred to as transdermal ozone therapy. And basically what we’re trying to do is we’re trying to get the body to absorb high-purity ozone into the body, and it gets into the bloodstream. And what this is doing is, especially for his issue, because he had Candida, you know, he had overgrowth, and it stimulates the body, it helps, you know, eliminate some of that Candida growth, and it almost puts your immune system into a more balanced state. I think the whole idea of, of Oh, boosting your immune system, that’s almost the wrong terminology. Sometimes we want to balance out our immune system more than anything. So it helped balance out his immune system, he went on a better diet that didn’t have the sugars and the other carbs with it. So when he, when combine all that stuff, he noticed a massive increase in energy. And it set him up to believe that wow, ozone is a real therapy that everybody should be looking at it. Honestly, the number of people that I talk to about ozone, like these are people who have gone through the medical system who have been told, Oh, there’s nothing we can do. And so they come. And they finally asked her asking questions about all these other therapies. And ozone seems to be that, that top one that like, within like the top five that a lot of people start gravitating toward because it’s so effective. I don’t typically like calling it the silver bullet because I think you have to do other things with it. But it’s one of the more powerful methods that you can incorporate, that shows a lot of benefits, you know, modulating the immune system, it goes after viruses and bacteria, which I think viruses are a big contributing issue with a lot of people, you know, bacteria such as Lyme disease and other things like that, you know, we can set your body up to help fight it off so much more effectively.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s some great insight. I think we’ve talked about this as well when we just were We’re kicking the tires to get this together in terms of doing a conference and talking about what I felt was the biggest hack was how our body utilizes oxygen. And we’re either using oxygen for us, or we’re using it against us, meaning we get the cells to deliver oxygen to produce ATP at a higher amount, or we don’t. And if that isn’t happening, typically oxygen is going to oxidize, and drain the batteries. And I think by imparting a more pure form of oxygen, you make up for a lot of that supply and demand that’s not happening when you’re not using oxygen for you effectively. So before we go down a little more of the rabbit holes. So with all that pre-history of with what you experienced with your father, at some point, did you say hey, this would be like a good business opportunity? Or like, what was the transition into like, Okay, let’s open up two companies here.   Tobias Segal: Yeah, I mean, of course, I mean, we, you know, my dad, my dad was one that started the company. So, you know, got to learn from him, you know, he was into ozone, and what we really saw more than anything was, you know, the ozone therapy side, you know, had had a few people doing it, but there wasn’t professionalism about it, you know, some companies were great, but there was definitely a lack of like, high-quality equipment. You know, I’m also big on presentation, you know, we’ve got to make our stuff look nice, like, nobody wants to buy something, and it’s like, just falling, it just looks like it, you know, came out of, you know, wherever, like, we got to make it look nice, we have to have solid instructions that actually teach somebody how to use it. Because, you know, ozone gas, it’s incredibly powerful, but you still have to use it properly. If you use it, if you misuse it, you can, you can’t have issues. And so, like instructional support, you know, ease of use products, that makes sense, you know, products that actually do what they say they do, you know, the big issue with ozone generators nowadays is, is, you know, how much ozone do they actually produce. And so that’s kind of the issue that we see with a lot of companies, you know, people will just slap something together, say, oh, it produces this much ozone. And then when you test it, it turns out that it’s not near as accurate as it should be. So, you know, high-quality equipment, accuracy, ease of use, and really getting that customer service experience across to the customer. So they understand the almost like holding their hand to say that this is a this is what we can help you out with, we’ve got your back here, you know, you know, we understand this as a new therapy. And you know, some people may not like the idea of ozone, we’re here to help. And we want to make sure you’re successful. So that was the big thing that was lacking in the industry. And, you know, we saw an opportunity, not necessarily to, like generate alike, it’s not necessarily an opportunity to make money, but really to, at the same time help people because of the lack of what was going on in the industry.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there’s nothing wrong with a win-win, right, and the old Zig Ziglar if you help enough people get what they want, you get what you want. And I think that altruistically with the mission of, hey, this is not our first rodeo, anyone that has gotten the ozone on their radar, and they don’t know what to do, they’re going to have very similar questions in terms of what is it? Why should I be doing it? What do I get to be aware of? How do I get the best outcomes, just back on to the regulatory side of things, because you see that a lot with just nutritional companies, where I know some of the companies that I like to use, they use mass spectrometers to actually digitally analyze the contents of the ingredients to make sure that there are no impurities? And unfortunately, FDA doesn’t really police that. So you could be getting stuff that is saying that it’s in there that it’s not or there’s a lot of toxic Tagalongs or excipients, or byproducts. So, I guess has that changed at all in the industry of ozone? Has it been regulated? What are the pitfalls are the things to be aware of with other companies?   Tobias Segal: Well, I mean, you are 100% Correct, there is not a lot of oversight by the FDA or organizations like that, nor do we really want that at the same time. So you know, what we really what we’ve learned in the industry is, you know, we use we utilize devices to calibrate and monitor our equipment, so we know what the output is. But what it really boils down to and what we have to really be careful of is making claims and so, you know, we do have to keep it clean, we do have to make sure that you know we don’t use the C word. You know the cure word obviously because you know, let’s get real, everybody’s a little bit different. So as long as we’re as long as we keep to the message, we make sure our products are safe. We really are going to be fine and that is that’s the scariest thing is like, you know, with these other companies out there is, you know, we want everybody to be doing it as safely as possible, we don’t want anybody to get hurt, because as soon as a start, as soon as people start getting hurt, that’s when the FDA is going to come in and figure out and do something, unfortunately, negative with the industry. And so by, by really educating the customer, and really making sure that they have what they need, we’re kind of flat, I think the whole, the whole natural health thing kind of flies under the radar with a lot of things as long as people are not hurting themselves. And that’s the great thing with those things, it’s really hard to do that, you know, obviously, there are ways you can but you know, as long as you, you know, you’re good at following basic instructions, you’re going to have the seat, you’re going to be very, very successful with your therapy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So and again, to the point where your dad wasn’t just expecting the insufflation to be a magic wand per se. He was changing his dietary approach, he’s doing the fundamentals that would synergistically work with, say, hitting a plateau with not using it, but then also harnessing another tool in your toolkit that is going to be that much more therapeutically beneficial, because you are doing a lot of the things and I think a lot of people listening to this are doing the basics or more than the basics like they’re aware of the foods that they shouldn’t be eating, or they’re or they’re dialing in on their circadian rhythm, there’s certainly not a lack of supplements, but yet, they’re still not solving that Next, get to the next level. So I guess from there, Tobias, when I hear ozone from just not knowing as much as I’d like to know, I think about I’ve heard ozone being used in the dental industry for when they do Mercury removal or disinfecting a, whatever. So maybe we can Springboard as to Okay, well, this is what they’re doing there. And this is what our companies do to be able to bring that technology to your home or to your products.   Tobias Segal: Absolutely. So that you’re 100% Correct. So ozone is, you know, we look at the actual fields that are being used medically and dental in the dental industry. I’m a huge advocate for dental health, especially with ozone because we have to look at our mouth, like I just got back from the dental seminar. And, you know, we talked about root canals, we talked about implants, we talked about, you know, how much it can negatively affect our overall health, and you are seeing a lot of dentists who are, are incorporating ozone, because it’s a much safer alternative, but at the same time, it’s more effective. So when we look at all these other sterilizers, on the market, such as chlorine, ozone works substantially better. And it’s a much healthier option. And so, you know, when it comes to dental health people like I think that’s kind of the that’s the big checkmark that a lot of people don’t look at when they’re trying to fix, they’re trying to address health issues. Because first of all, it gets really expensive. Getting stuff, you know, fixing your mouth, whether you have you need like to do fillings if you have to deal with the root canal, if you have, you know, all these other things they get, it gets incredibly expensive. So it can be a little daunting for some people. But you know that that, to me is like a huge industry that ozone is accelerating quickly. You know, on the medical side, you’re seeing a lot of practitioners are actual doctors, they’re doing intravenous ozone therapy. And that’s, you know, really, really cool. I mean, the only way that they can typically do that is they have to be a medical doctor. And so, you know, the laws in the United States do dictate that if the doctor deems a therapy beneficial to the patient, and as long as the patient is accepting with that they can do it. So ozone therapy can absolutely be done in the United States, and it’s completely legal, as long as the doctor deems that is unnecessary treatment. And so, you know, that’s great, because we’re seeing ozone therapy helps so much with like, chronic infection issues, especially when they do it, you know, though, you know, intravenously, I mean, we’re seeing a lot of people who had like, you know, viral issues, long haul viral issues, and it’s helping them substantially get them, get them out of it. So, you know, we really have to be very grateful to these practitioners who have taken the step forward to do this. And it’s really helped put ozone on the map as well because I love the fact that it’s such an available thing for people to go get. And there are a lot of other therapies out there even like for sports injuries for ozone, that ozone is highly successful.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and we talked a little bit of the best in the worst case scenario, you know, I think like in terms of the profession, and that being a canary in the coal mine as far as if you have a chronic health issue, and you haven’t checked the boxes of the integrity of your oral biome, and infections and mixed metals and Mercury’s and dead roots and cavitations and the list goes on. And on and on, you have a barrier to entry breach problem, right? Because that goes right into your systemic blood supply. And next thing you know, your whole immune system is challenged. So I think the dental profession derivative, deservedly so gets a bad rap for fluoride and mercury amalgams. And a lot of procedures, especially like when you and I were talking about the Weston Price. And I think politically, I don’t know if you know this, but basically, they read like, there was a big meeting, and I don’t remember the exact meeting, and I don’t want to butcher the story, but they determined that it wasn’t prudent in the dental education, training to teach people to be proactive and use nutrition and lack of sugar for their dietary suggestions, because it meant fewer people in their dental chairs. But on the flip side, you are having these early adopters adopt, like adopt and undo the mistakes that were made with the good intentions of helping you by removing these amalgams putting more safer composites and they’re using ozone for disinfecting. So I agree with you in the sense that, that it’s, it’s nice to see that we’re able to harness new technology to be able to help people with their health, I think you’re gonna say something in there. So I want to sort of getting your feedback on any of that.   Tobias Segal: Yeah, no, like seriously like that your whole system is set up for profit. And, you know, we almost want people to be sick. And which is so sad, because it just generates an unproductive society. And it’s just, I feel like it just crashes us. And, you know, it’s, it just makes us. I don’t know, I feel like it’s just, it’s just our it’s the start of our downfall. But one thing I wanted to mention about the whole dental stuff that I thought was really interesting was one thing I learned recently was, you know, more so about like implants, and a lot of people get metal implants in their mouth. And they’ve actually done studies, and they’ve taken multimeters. And so let’s just say if somebody has a metal implant in their mouth, and like a metal rod in their foot from like an injury, they can actually detect conductivity between the two pieces of metal. And so the theory is, you know, if you put this metal on your body, it almost acts as like a battery. And so, if you think about putting an implant in your mouth, a metal implant in your mouth, it’s literally putting a battery up by your brain. And so that doesn’t sound very good to me. And so, you know, the dead the dentists that I was dealing with he was given this presentation, he pulls out metal fillings, and he says, every single metal filling I pulled out, I have seen our chronic tissue on every single one. And so when you think about these, the this in these infections in your mouth, like, yeah, if you have fatigue issues, if you have adrenal issues, and you’re doing all these things, try to fix the problem, and nothing’s working. I honestly think you have to sometimes resort to figuring out if it could be something in here that could be causing the issue because a lot of people just don’t connect the dots, people people, we really should not be putting metal in our bodies, because of what it can do, how it interacts with our body, how it reacts. And, you know, if we have to do implants, you know, there are much safer alternatives to titanium.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So it’s a good point. And it doesn’t even have to be a different metal in the part of the body could be a different metal in the mouth, if you’ve used a different opposite. And you have mixed metals that will help gas and create a battery. And ultimately, what I feel happens is, once you have that outgassing or that battery going on, you’re draining your minerals, you’re leaching them out of your teeth, and your jaw and your and your entire mouth. And that’s why you’re seeing such problems with breathing and airways and arches and deviations. And then, therefore, when you’re depleted in your minerals, you lead the way for more infections, and next time you have a stealth infection, those are reactivating, and always re-hijacking your DNA and replicating. So does a lot of it starts with the mouth and I’m a big advocate of testing your pH to be able to determine and if you’re not able to get to say a six to 7.2 I have my clients look at their mouth, which is probably a good transition because one of the lines that Purell three has is they do the tooth and gum support with ozone. And I was going to ask you, I guess it’s putting the cart before the horse because I wanted to get into well what does Autozone actually do or what is it doing? But with that being said, How is the difference between oil pulling with a pure oh three ozone and a tooth? GM support. What’s the I was curious about? What is the difference between them?   Tobias Segal: Yeah, So oil pulling is obviously like, in our era Vedic medicine, where we’re taking, it’s almost like a, it’s almost like mouthwash but except the oil, pull is it’s supposed to pull out the toxins. And so the difference is what we’re, what we’re doing differently is we’re adding in ozonated oil, which essentially, I always like to say it’s like, it’s like oil on steroids, or it’s like, it adds like a big lump to it. And so, you know, whenever we, whenever we ozonated oil, it adds a much greater antimicrobial aspect to it. And so it’s much better at killing and this is a really important killing of the anaerobic bacteria in the mouth. And so we do have good bacteria, we do have bad bacteria, and the total bad bacteria is the anaerobic which is, which it gets essentially destroyed and higher oxygen-rich environment. So that’s a good term to know. So we can kill these so that we can eliminate his bad bacteria. And you know, there is a chance we’re going to kill some of the good bacteria in the process. But what we found is that good bacteria bounces back substantially faster, substantially faster. So, you know, I always like to say, like, people are always worried about oh, kill the good bacteria, I’m like, Yeah, but you have a lot of bad bacteria, too. That’s, that’s taken over. So we have to essentially, get rid of some of it so your body can repopulate the proper way. So I think that’s a really important way to look at it. But the oil pulling is designed almost to use like a mouthwash, the tooth and gum support is for those the gums that are starting to recede for the teeth that are hurting, for the infections in the mouth, we apply that directly to those areas. And we can, you know, we can typically use like a night guard, we put it in our night guard, we apply it to our mouth, we can get more long term exposure with that tooth gum support, and really, really have it soak in and, and kill that infection. So one interesting thing was ozone. And it’s negatively charged, it’s negatively charged. And so when you put it into the body, it tends to attract itself to these positive areas that could be the infection. So it almost like it’s almost like a seek and destroy it, it hits your body. And it gravitates to the issue of the part of the body that has the issue. And I think that’s why it’s so effective, you know, with the ozone gas, and even the ozonated oils.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s a good point. And to kind of piggyback off what you’re what you’re talking about. And one of the main domino effects that really changed things for me and my people that I talked to is is oxygen using for you. And that’s where you’re being an oxygenator or is it Are you an oxidizer, and ultimately, when you are creating free radicals, you have that positive charge, right, and when you bring in ozone, you have that negative charge, so it can directly search and destroy those free radicals that are basically taking flame throwers to all the different tissues and cells and chemicals in the body. So alright, so basically then the oil pulling with the ozone concentration versus the tooth and gum, tooth and gums more of a keep it on that specific one area, maybe use it for longer period of time, whereas Oil Pulling could be up to what 15 minutes per session, something like that.   Tobias Segal: five to 15 minutes and eat. I mean, 30 minutes is a long time, but it really is effective. If you use it for that line, you can really a lot of the feedback people say really improves the overall health of their mouth. And we get great feedback from that. Yeah, it’s really really, I mean, it’s a cool product. I mean, I, I liked the whole idea, you know, of you know, there’s obviously the different rates of ozone therapy, you know, like stuff that’s really easy to use, such as the ozonated oils, you know, that’s, that’s I always like to use it as like an intro product, almost like a gateway product. And so people can start using those native soils, and they can see how fast it can benefit their dental, health, or other issues. And it kind of sparks an interest in their mind like, wow, this actually worked substantially well. What else in the ozone industry or in the ozone field is there and they can gravitate and they can see oh, wow, there’s, there are people doing ozone IV therapies, there are people you know, you can do this at home. One of the cool things that I see a lot of people getting into is, you know, there are these things, you can actually inject ozone into the joints, which is really good for sports injuries. And so, you know, what it’s basically doing is it’s just generating a healing crisis, you know, in that area, and at the same time reducing inflammation. But what’s really fascinating with ozone, we inject it into like joints or other parts of our body it actually can disrupt certain types of collagen or body, and the collagen that the disruptions and stuff that produces scar tissue. And so, when when we can when we hit that when we hit the ozone gas to these areas that do have the scar tissue, we’ve, we’ve it’s weird the sounds that I mean, this is like outside the medical possibilities, but I seriously do this, it almost like it’s almost like it neutralizes the scar tissue and turns it back into healthy tissue. And this I think is really important for a lot of different, you know, things that people deal with, like, you know, sports injuries, even women who have endometriosis issues have great success with ozone therapy. So I think the possibilities are essential, you know, there’s a lot of different areas to go with ozone that can provide a lot of benefits for the body.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, not just reactionary, but proactive longevity, stuff like regeneration, and just arthritis and debris, and so forth. Yeah, interesting. As far as the different grades, I know, there was a term that I wasn’t familiar with that actually write it down, which was the potential oxidized index. So the poi, so I know with your oils, and we’ll get into the promo life and the different ways and the analog and the digital ozone generating machines that are for home use that I want to talk to you about. But before we do that, you have the disease a two-part question. So as far as the poi goes from lower to higher, maybe tell us what that means and what the different therapeutic benefits would be for each. And then number two is with an ozone-based oil, can you still get some of the same benefits if you’re not putting it in? into the bloodstream? And you’re putting it on transdermally?   Tobias Segal: So let’s definitely answer those questions. So the poi, which we call the potential ozonated index. And so what we do is we take a plant oil, and we can measure the three, six, and nine fatty acids in that oil. And so that’s used to calculate essentially how much ozone or ozone IDEs that oil will hold. So it tells us like, Okay, here’s, here’s coconut oil, here’s olive oil, here’s hemp oil. So based upon these poi indexes, we find that coconut oil is a more mild, more mild ozonated oil, olive oil is a more because a medium strength oil, and then hemp oil is a strong, very, it holds a lot. And so this is good, you know because you don’t necessarily want too strong for certain applications that you might need different strengths for other types of applications. You know, whether it’s like a, like a beauty application, you might want to go with a lower strength, oil, medium strength might be more of a, like a rash, or like a bug bite or, you know, something like that, or like a fungal outbreak, a high strength or might be good for like a wound that really needs to be applied or like a burn or something like that, that really needs to have a lot of healing take place. So there’s, there’s different applications for the strength of these oils. And then, you know, regarding the, you know, obviously the other questions in regards to like, like ozone, you know, it’s just a, you know, overall using it, you know, it’s there’s a lot of different uses at home, you know, for for the ozone gas as well. I think you had another follow-up question you wanted to ask about.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that was the way you answered that. So as far as I would have thought though, the nerd in me would have thought that like the saturated oils would have been a higher poi. But it’s the other way around. Seems like that because Is that correct?   Tobias Segal: Or yeah, I mean, the like you’re talking about, like more like a coconut oil holding more ozone. Yeah, but interestingly enough, it’s it has to do with the there’s like a formula that you can use, you can look at the Omega threes, you Omega sixes, and the Omega nines, and you multiply it by three and that’s going to give you your potential ozone index and, and when you eliminate these oils, you do notice that wow, yeah, coconut oil is definitely not as strong as like hemp oil. And there’s a substantial difference and it’s pretty cool. I mean, hemp oil is great for like wound care, and olive oils overall go to for just about everything. It’s great for bug bites, great for like eczema rashes. I almost use it as the best way to use it honestly. It’s great it’s like a Neosporin replacement for those for those moms or those dads who are kids, you know, get cut or whatever. Don’t put Neosporin on your kids, but it wasn’t me at all. It’s going to be it’s going to work better and it’s healthier. So it’s a much better solution.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it makes sense now like those polyunsaturated and those longer chains like the Omega nines are going to be longer so they’re just going to have more ability to bind that ozone to it. Alright, so that makes sense to me though, but I think like where the real power is beyond just putting it on top of me is, like you said that canary in the coal All mine with the mouth, the mouth health. And actually, I just did a podcast before this where I’m big into home testing and pH testing is one of them. But I really liked the idea of nitric oxide testing. And then that way using the ozone and being able to actually do pre and post so you see what your nitric oxide levels are, before embarking on say, an oil pulling or a tooth and gum protocol, and then measure it after. And then basically what you’re seeing is the ability of the nitrates in your mouth to be reduced into nitrates and nitric oxide and nitric oxide allowing for that vasodilation. And I think that’s what’s happening at some level with the ozone is you’re endogenously getting some chemical messengers and modulating immune response and up regulating the attack, specifically over here. So I guess that’s a good segue into the home version. And the difference between I mean, obviously, price is a difference. But what are what is analog and digital in terms of how it generates ozone?   Tobias Segal: Yeah, let me I’ll definitely answer. But I want to mention one quick thing. You know, the way ozone works, ozone is technically a vasodilator. So it will, it will increase blood flow and helps, you know, just overall blood flow work better. So, but you know, that I think that’s an important thing to know. But you know, back to the homes, the home side of life, you can like the cool thing with ozone is you don’t just have to go to a practitioner, he goes on, you can do this at home. And the reason why I feel like that’s important is you know, we look at go into an ozone practitioner, that’s great, they do phenomenal work, but you might be three, four hours away from the deer. So it was on practitioner and you have to take a day off of work to drive, you know, it’s like a literally a full day process just introduced to get treatment. So a lot of people are getting into doing ozone at home because they have their equipment there, they can do it anytime they feel like they can do it two times a day, they can do it morning, they can do it at night, it doesn’t affect their life as far as like having to drive out to practitioner. And it’s also a lot less expensive as well, long term. So I think that’s really important to know. So when we do ozone at home, like the main therapies that we try to do are really our overall goal is to get ozone to absorb into the body and into the bloodstream. And the most effective way to do that is through this through rectal insufflation, where we utilize the blood vessels in our colon to absorb the ozone our colon has been referred to as our second long. So there are some pretty interesting articles out there that show oxygen absorption through our colon, and it actually works pretty well. So we’re date we’re basically adding ozone and letting the ozone absorb into our body that way, it really does it works amazing. For anybody who wants to try it. Probably the first thing you’re gonna notice right off the bat is a boost of energy for most people. And that’s, that’s I think, the huge takeaway when you do ozone, you know, other ways you can get ozone to absorb in the body, you can do, you can drink ozonated water. So we infuse ozone into a glass and drink the ozonated water, that’s a great way it’s a really easy way to do it. A lot of women can do this other thing called vaginal insulation where we add ozone gas that way and it just absorbs into the blood vessels that way. And then one of the other things we could do is it’s called a transdermal ozone therapy where we basically apply the ozone topically to the skin and let it absorb that way. So everything that we’re doing ozone gas, or our end goal is to get it to absorb into our body. And so that’s our goal. And all this stuff is really easy to do at home.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So okay, so then the digital and analog just like technology analog isn’t going to be as powerful as infusing ozone through the body. They’re very similar.   Tobias Segal: The one advantage with digital is digital tends to be more accurate as far as concentration goes because we can dial into that appropriate setting. Now we see more of our dental offices and our practitioners gravitating toward digital because it’s a little bit more precise. So depending on what they’re doing for your application, they’re going to probably be more precise, especially when doing anything, especially when doing anything intravenously. And so I mean, more, I would say are at home groups, they really focus on the analog, because first of all, it’s a great unit. And the other thing is also less expensive. So you know, price is a big sticking point for a lot of people. And analog is just as good as digital. It’s relatively accurate. And so you know, price is a big issue, go with a tried and true analog and fantastic your great unit.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right and then just before we get into what we would be looking at just so people would have sort of an understanding and I think it always needs to be put into perspective too, right because it’s a lie. If time thing and, but and what you’re spending and what you’re not spending opportunity costs all the above, however, you could then go ahead and infuse your own oils, is that correct? So you would be able to know that you have a generator, you’d be able to make your own home products would that be accurate?   Tobias Segal: You? Absolutely, I mean, making those eight holes, is a lengthier process, there is some time involved in that. But, you know, when doing this at home, as far as like, I definitely need to go over the cost on that. So, you know, on average, most home, people are going to spend around $1,000 to $1,500 for a complete system. And so, you know, I think that’s a good start a $1,000 is a good starting point, you get more if you spend, you know, 1500. And this gives you basically, you know, everything you essentially need to do the majority of these therapies at home. And, you know, the one, the one thing that we do have to go over and this is the kind of the unknown for a lot of people when getting into this is ozone does require to in order to generate pure ozone, it does require the need for a pure oxygen source. And so that can be sometimes the stumbling block for a lot of people, they will how do I get a pure oxygen source? Like how do I What do I do? Well, it’s actually a lot easier than what people think, you know, if you have a doctor who’s willing to write you a medical prescription for an oxygen tank, that’s a that’s an easy way, that’s great. But let’s get real. A lot of people don’t have that luxury. So what’s the next best thing? Well, it’s actually welding oxygen. So most people don’t realize that welding oxygen and medical oxygen, there’s no difference in the quality, they’re exactly the same stuff. They all it all come from the same tank, except one goes into a medical tank, the other goes into an industrial tank. And, you know, the other thing that people don’t realize as well is if it’s welding, it’s probably dirty. Raw. Welders require high-purity oxygen, so their oxygen has to be pure. So it’s free of contaminants. And so you literally have a product that you can walk into a store and say, Hey, I need to get a welding oxygen tank, and it’ll work amazingly, with your ozone therapy equipment at home. And so I think that’s a great way to get oxygen. Some people may be uncomfortable with that. But, you know, there are other options that we offer, but from a realistic standpoint, that’s gonna be your easiest, less expensive way to get oxygen.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, and then just as a ballpark, what are they typically paying for a, if they went the welding route for a tank of pure oxygen, that they’re, you’re gonna, you’re gonna pay, roughly.   Tobias Segal:  I recommend a 20 cubic foot tank, it’s about 18 inches tall. And that’ll cost you 130 $250. If you go into a store, some places, it’s cheaper. And then here’s the great thing, a 20 cubic foot tank that’s 18 inches tall, that will last you on average, two to three months with regular continuous use at home. And to get a refill on that, it’s going to be like 20 bucks. So you literally have a really cheap source of oxygen that you don’t really have to worry about. Once you have that welding tank, just go back and get it refilled whenever, whenever you need it, what they do, they treat it like a propane tank. So when that oxygen tank is empty, you give them the empty tank, and they pull another full tank from their stock and give it to you to swap it out. So it’s a very, like, you know, you just have to be willing to do the welding oxygen, it’s easy. I get it. Some people don’t like that idea. But you know, it’s really, it’s really the most inexpensive, the easiest way to go. The highest Quality is the easiest way to go. And when it comes.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Down to bias to how bad is their problem? You know, I always tell clients, like, you don’t have bargaining chips at the table when you’re, you know, when your life’s on the line and you’re really suffering and you’re going everywhere, and no one’s giving you answers and you’re more and more frustrated, and you’re taking a lot of supplements, and you don’t know if they’re working, meaning you got it, you don’t have the ability to necessarily bargain with the extra little, I guess the hoops that you’ve got to jump through to be able to do it if you will. So as far as you mentioned, like there is a couple of, you know, dangers or concerns that if you’re not using it effectively, or what we call contraindications for using ozone what would those be?   Tobias Segal: So ozone in general, just about everybody can use it. I mean, if you look at how ozone operates, our white blood cells naturally produce a small, small amount of ozone. So our body’s familiar with it. 99.999% of people are just fine with those. I’ve heard a few that have reactions, but it’s so incredibly rare. The one thing that people do need to understand about ozone is it is a gas and it’s considered an oxidizer or irritant. If you can do pretty much everything with it, you just can’t breathe it. And so, as weird as that sounds, you know, we don’t want to breathe the gas. Now, people are probably gonna say, well, well, how am I going to gas, you know, maybe I might accidentally breathe it right? It’s pretty hard to do that because ozone has a very distinct odor. And so, you know, our noses are going to pick up we can, our noses that will actually pick up point 05 parts per million of ozone gas, which is an incredibly small amount, they would have to be substantially higher for it to cause any negative interactions with breathing it. And so you’re going to realize you’re going to be smelling it before well before you’re anywhere near a level of oh, you know, let’s not be breathing. So my rule was like, if you start smelling a lot of ozone, just turn a fan on, open up a window, and everything is fine. But the way our equipment is set up, we set it up in a way that is designed to minimally allow any ozone to escape. So your chances of breathing too much ozone are virtually nonexistent. And so as long as you follow our detailed instructions, you know, we have, we have you know, video support that we offer, we have live zoom sessions that we offer free of charge, we can, you know, we can make sure that you’re operating properly, and most importantly, confidently as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think it’s important to do some of the legwork, where you look at how are you responding at the cellular level. And I really think that that’s what’s being missed in traditional approaches where we don’t look at Iron effectively, we don’t look at how copper is available to move things out of the tissue. And I think you have to do a lot of the legwork at least, consider at the same time, if not a bit of a head start. So that you do get that therapeutic benefit that when you do implement a strategy like that, as far as is rectal, the only way to insulate it, or is there other ways to do it?   Tobias Segal: You can, there’s a lot of other ways you can add ozone to the IRS, that’s actually really good for like brain fog. And like memory issues. It’s almost like drinking a cup of coffee for some people. One of the cool ways that I’ve been using a lot of ozone is you can do this thing called nasal installations where you actually take a small syringe of ozone gas, and you hold your breath. And it’s almost like you’re going swimming underwater, hold your breath, but you push a little bit of ozone gas up your nose, and you let it sit there for about three to five seconds, and then you just exhale it out. And what it’s doing is it’s basically hitting your sinus passages, which is where a lot of viral replication takes place. And so if we’re able to lower viral replication, our chances of getting sick based upon our viral load are substantially lower. So, you know, this is something that a lot of people have been doing lately, you know, in, you know, just if they go out and about for a long thing you want to want to play it if they go to a conference, you know, really ozone and this is how ozone is now effective ozone, ozone was on so good at deactivating viruses, it’s just blowing my mind. So like, it literally will just strip an electron from a virus. And so when you add ozone to viruses, it strips an electron, which essentially deactivates it. And so we’re not killing viruses, we’re just deactivating it does it within a fraction of a second. So you know, there’s so much research out there as far as how well it works with viruses. And the great thing is that same goes for bacteria. There’s no resistance that takes place like bacteria cannot become resistant to ozone because of how ozone kills it. It literally just blows apart the cell wall and bacteria. And so it’s almost like it just cannot develop resistance. And so that’s why ozone I wish it was more widely used in hospitals. I wish it was more widely used elsewhere. But I think we’re seeing we’re definitely seeing an uptick in usage because of how effective it isn’t. It’s not going to go anywhere. So zone is going to be here to stay. And I think that you know, long term, I think it’s going to be more incorporated in our mainstream medical system at some point, hopefully in the near future. But we’ll see how that goes.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. All right. So so as far as you also putting on your skin and being able to in the mouth, and then medically grade in terms of I guess, infusions or I guess I had a client the other day telling me that they were doing the where they do the past. They take out the blood and then they infuse it with ozone and they put it back in there. Awesome information that you’re telling me a little bit where we could probably just get into it in terms of the brown gas and the hydrogen. Yeah. So maybe tell us a little bit about what’s coming up with that and what you’re what we’re talking about.   Tobias Segal: So I always like to I think there’s like great synergistic things that go well with each other. I think hydrogen ism is a gas that goes really well with ozone. Hydrogen is an IS-A is the smallest molecule it’s considered, you know, it’s a very powerful antioxidant. It’s ozone, if you look at it, it’s an oxidant. So you know, one thing that we have to realize with ozone, it’s it’s phenomenal health in the body. But for people who have a lot of additional oxidative stress that they’re dealing with, for them to be successful with ozone, they may need to counter it with some antioxidants to help their body out a bit. So that’s where I think hydrogen plays a really powerful role. Hydrogen is also viewed as like a macronutrient, so it helps basically everything else, we’re better if that makes sense. So think about it like this, it’s a macronutrient, it almost generates homeostasis in the body, for things to start working better. So you know, prime your body with hydrogen, and then that ozone will follow suit and literally work much more effectively. And so you know, these are just, you know, tools that people can use, I think there, people are going to be much more accepting to using these, the cool thing with both hydrogen and ozone is, once you have it, you literally don’t have to get anything else. I mean, we’re making hydrogen out of the water, we’re making ozone out of oxygen, these are like some of the two cheapest substances you can buy. And so that’s what I love about these therapies, you buy the equipment, you literally have what you need moving forward for some substantial period of time, you’re not running out buying all these supplements, you’re not running out, getting these IVs that cost $1,500 You’re not. I mean, you’re literally once you have the equipment in place, you’re set. And I feel like it’s a really good way to take control of your health.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. So would you be doing instead of the oxygen concentrator, you would be doing the hydrogen? And what did you go to the welder to get that too? Or how would you go about getting pure hydrogen?   Tobias Segal: So hydrogen is really cool. So we’re gonna, we’re gonna make it using distilled water. So literally, all you need is distilled water. And we make it through the process of electrolysis. So we’re going to, we’re going to split the hydrogen off the oxygen. And what happens is, during that electrolysis process, we’re producing this stuff called browns, gas, and browns gas is 67%, hydrogen, 33% Oxygen, that’s literally all that we’re actually breathing. And what we do is we breathe it, okay, so we’re gonna breathe that hydrogen, or we’re gonna infuse it into the water and drink it. And so literally, it’s just distilled water. I mean, I buy I can buy a gallon of distilled water at the grocery store for about 99 cents. And that’ll last me for a month. So if you think about the cost of running these, this equipment, you know, it’s pennies on the dollar, you look at like, you know, usage. So it’s pretty, pretty inexpensive. Do you have to be?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Careful to bias like I know, with hydrogen water, like, especially they have hydrogen water tablets. And I know a couple of colleagues that have hydrogen water generators, and I know how helpful it is for hydroxyl radicals and hydrogen peroxide, and so forth. But I know that there was otherwise this It would make sense that it wasn’t folklore that if you don’t cover it, all that hydrogen water gases are just is dissipating. Is that right? Yeah, how do you store it? Or how do you make sure that it’s concentrated that you’re not having it all up, you know, blow off if you will?   Tobias Segal: So let’s, let’s get the so there’s a thing that I want to go over. And you know, it’s people need to understand this about hydrogen. It’s explosive, I mean, hydrogen is an explosive gas, okay? But it’s incredibly beneficial to the body. So one thing that people don’t realize with hydrogen is, that it’s the lightest it’s, it’s incredibly light, travels once hydrogen exits the machine, it travels 50 miles an hour upward. Okay, so as soon as it exits, it’s literally shooting straight up in the air. And so when it comes to breathing it, you know, you have that you have to pump out of like a nasal cannula breathe, you literally there’s nothing to really worry about because it’s going up so fast dispersing that you know, and it’s in it’s below a concentration that would be considered flammable. So they’re these devices are incredibly safe to use. The only time there’s an issue is if you take a lighter, and you stick it up to the port of the machine. Yes, it’s gonna go it’s gonna make a booming sound. But we have all these like Flash black back fermenters built in, that’s not gonna it’s not gonna ruin any, it’s just gonna, it’s just gonna make a scary sound. You know, with the water, we’re infusing it into the water, it’ll actually stay in the water for a good 20 to 30 minutes. And so you have time to drink that water without it raising off and going away. But, you know, realistically, if you know, just with ozone there’s, there’s obviously slight issues where you have to be mindful with but overall, incredibly safe therapy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. So promo life, then, I guess, the wing of your company that does more home-based ozone and hydrogen generators. So that’s a product that’s already available in hydrogen gas.   Tobias Segal: Right, absolutely. What I would like if anybody’s interested, I would encourage You to know, we have a, we have a Contact Us form on our website where you can actually schedule calls with our sales team. So you can actually if you want to sit down and discuss how could this be beneficial for me, schedule a call with us, we’d love to chat and love to help you out. I mean, this is what we’re here for. And, you know, this is where we’ve got the opportunity to test all this stuff out, see how it works, like, what I love to do is I love making sure my sales staff team gets to use all the equipment, and they, they, they actually, the great thing is they’ve seen a lot of benefits themselves using it. So you know, they’re believers in the product, and they’re gonna, they’re gonna be as upfront and truthful with you to hopefully help steer you in the right direction. And, you know, I think that that plays a big role. Like, I don’t like talking to sales reps, who say they know everything about the product, but have never used it, you know, what I mean? You know, I like people who actually have actual experiences in your product, it’s so much more honest, it’s so much more, you’re gonna get a better sales experience, in my opinion, for sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And from my side of the table, so to speak, like, I know that typically you give anyone, hydrogen water, and when they’re ready, if they’re not completely in a cytokine, crazy storm going on ozone, and they’re going to do well. However, there’s always going to be some embers, if you will, that hasn’t been extinguished. And a lot of the times that has to do with the perfect storm, Tobias of their life and the mold and the heavy metals and the antibiotics and everything else in between. But then they have these genetic susceptibilities, where they don’t effectively clear out the hydrogen peroxide, or they don’t slow down activation of their mast cells, or they can’t recycle their antioxidants, or whatever it is, where if you understand those weaknesses, and you do a real-time test to see how it’s playing out, you patch those up, if you will, and not just put water in a bucket that’s got holes in it, you patch that up, and then you layer on adjunctive therapies like hydrogen, water, ozone, and all the different oils that you have, I think it’s a really winning combination. So we’ll have to talk because I really think the nitric oxide is a way to validate that it’s actually doing something that people will say, Well, I kind of feel better. But I also want to see it in black and white, or I want to see it objectively like this is the level now this is a level kind of thing. We work that way. And I think that’s a real good tool itself. Do you have something to add to that?   Tobias Segal: No, I agree. I mean, the main thing of the therapies that we offer, it’s there, they’re incredibly safe, like, like, even with hydrogen, you know, there’s literally zero negative interaction with people who do hydrogens, either it helps or doesn’t do anything at all. And same with ozone, it either helps or it really doesn’t do much at all. And that’s what I love about these therapies. But the cool thing is, most people notice benefits. Like, it’s not one of those like subtle things, like especially ozone, like you’re gonna know, it’s working within the first two to three times of using it, you’re gonna feel better, you’re gonna be like, wow, like, I feel substantially better. Like, you know, one of the things that I noticed when I drink a glass of ozonated water is well I have more energy like I do I run and like my time gets better. And so I can tell like it’s actually working and that’s that that’s the thing that I think a lot of people miss with one of these natural therapies is they’re so subtle. And I love about ozone and hydrogen is it’s something you can notice right off the bat and I think that’s so important for people It gives people the confidence that excites people and it drives those people to keep doing it so they start even feeling so they start feeling even better.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, in a world of delay take forever I’m not really sure if I’m getting wins quick wins go a long way. That’s so All right. Well, yeah, as far as coming to an end here Tobias I always like to ask my guests Hey, now that you know what you know now and potentially what you didn’t know then what would you have told the younger Tobias some information that would have helped out a little bit quicker in your journey?   Tobias Segal: You know, honestly, for me, dental health is probably the biggest thing that I think people shouldn’t be looking at early on you you’ve got to focus on your dental health you know, you might take it for granted you know, right off the bat. Oh, my teeth are fine. Yeah, they probably are. But you know, that’s where a lot of these negative issues start is the mouth and so you know, if you look at your teeth if you started having like lots of cavities, chances are there’s something else going on in your body and so I really pushed people as you know, you know, let’s look at our overall mouse health. I think that’s a window into our bodies as far as what’s going on. You know, young me, my teeth are doing pretty good right now. Um, you know, young meat, like focus on that, you know, you know, it’s really like Ozone Water is phenomenal mouthwash, ozonated oils, keeping your mouth healthy keeping that bacteria down. I think it’ll it’ll play a such a far. It’ll help you out so much later on in life, I mean, look at, look at all the negative things with like, like bacteria in your mouth and how it can infect your heart. I mean, this is a serious thing, like, if you can, if you can really look at your mouth health, I think you’d be so much better off in the long run.   Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure, I agree, and coupled with the fact that there are no minerals in our soils anymore. And that used to be a big source of it. And then the stress of life and where we are these days were just demanding our body to have to use oxygen more effectively to be able to make for the stress that we go through. So awesome information. So as far as being able to research this on their own or reach out to promo life and or pure oh three, we were kind enough to give my listeners a discount. So if they use the discount code cap, I think it’s all capital, right, Dr. JOEL? Do you get a discount on the home generating machine and or the different products that you have beyond what we talked about today? Yeah. Which is really awesome. And, yeah, I want to pick your brain sort of off the camera, because I have a couple of other questions. But thank you so much for your time today, Tobias. I appreciate all the information you gave us. And I wish you guys continued and future success because you’re on the top of the trend, which is always a nice place to be.   Tobias Segal: I really appreciate the time and you know, thanks so much. I feel like you’ve got a really good grasp of a lot of things that we talked about as well. And you know, you sound like you’re on top of it, and I wish more people were like you as well. So thank you so much.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Thanks, Tobias. enjoyed our conversation. If you would like to try some of the products at pure03, click here and be sure to use the discount code DRJOEL The post Revealed: How To Experience Astonishing Benefits Using Ozone Therapy For Burnout appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so they can get their energy back quickly. And it’s a real pleasure to have Vanessa Bartlett join us today on giving us information on what you could do to recover your energy by being active. And through movement. She is a holistic lifestyle and exercise coach, and she helps people re-energize their body and their mind with adrenal-friendly Fitness and Lifestyle practices. So Vanessa, thank you so much for joining me today.   Vanessa Bartlett: Thank you so much, Dr. Joel, this is amazing to be on here with you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and you know, I gotta admit, I apologize to you on the air. Because I know you’ve had reached out a couple of times to be I had seen it. But you know, quite truly, I’m the spinning a lot of different plates and have a lot of ads in different cookie jars. And it just was the proper timing, and kudos to you for persisting persistent because I think that tells a lot about your journey, your recovery for energy, and maybe why you got burnt out in the first place. So why don’t you tell our listeners a little bit about your story first about your trials, so we can identify with where you’re coming from?   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah, absolutely. So I was really into health and fitness as a youngster and I got my aerobics qualification when I was 18 years old and into the gyms right away. Actually, when I was 14 years old, believe it or not, I lied and told my local gym, I was 15, just so I could go. But before that, at age eight, I got up at 6:30 am religious to take a robotic cell style, which is a really famous 30-minute aerobic show here in Australia, back when I eight years old. So anyway, so it’s in my blood. But what happened was, I was doing a lot of work with that in gyms in my early 20s teaching heaps of classes, you know, pump and spin and boxing and all that stuff and thinking, wow, like I’m living my best life. I’m getting paid for what I love. I’m getting paid to exercise and be around great people every day in all these gyms. But then what started to happen was I started to notice I got really tired after teaching what was pretty okay for me generally. So I’ve gone through this, you know, from the early 20s to mid-20s. And then started to feel this kind of heaviness in my body and these symptoms and signs that would flare up and make me think oh my gosh, what’s going on, I can normally get through this pump class quite easily or you know, as circled or something like that, that this fatigue, this kind of heavy fatigue started to set into my body during and after these exercise sessions. Then at that time, too, I was also starting up my own mobile trip personal training business around Sydney managing trainers. So doing a lot spinning a lot of plates and all that was young without kids at that point, I started to realize my energy wasn’t what it should be for someone in their mid to late 20s, who’s you know, relatively healthy doing exercise for a living. So something just wasn’t sitting, right? So this went on for a couple of years, actually. Until one day I was in a client assessment doing her blood pressure and you know, talking to her about an exercise and I’m kind of sitting on the table going, I’m so sorry, Alice, like, I’m really tired today. I’m just so exhausted. It’s I’m tired all the time, actually. And I started talking to her about my problem. And she’s like, I’ve been the same Hey, there’s this doctor in Asheville who’s really holistic, go see him, he’ll tell you what’s going on. Because I’ve been to GPS. And they just kept telling me, You’re just you know, you’re just having a tiring day, don’t worry, just rest. And I’ll get sick a lot too. So it’s getting colds and flu, like once every six weeks, which was ridiculous, and chest infections. That wasn’t good. My immune system was down. And they kept giving me antibiotics as well. So that wasn’t sitting well and going hang on. I don’t want to keep taking this stuff. I’m not quite right, something else is going on. I just had this inner voice saying that this just isn’t right. Anyway, so long Behold, this doctor helped me out and did this test on me and said, Vanessa, your adrenals are shot. And I’m like, What are adrenals I didn’t even know anything about what that was at that point. And he said You’re doing too much in your life. You’re doing too much exercise, you’re burning the candle at both ends, you’ve got to stop what you’re doing. And you’ve got to change what you eat and you’ve got to go to bed earlier and like whoa, what huh? So this kind of took a bit of time to process for me. But as it turned out that was my journey then to discovering I had very bad Adrenal Fatigue was very very poor health internally although I looked fit on the outside and that’s what happened I started having to rehaul and revamp every part of my life from there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well thanks for sharing I can I certainly identified with that myself when I graduated with my undergraduate in exercise physiology. I was a trainer too. And I remember my schedule where it would be like a sixth and the seventh and then someone would say Well, can I train with you already? Let Oh, sure at 11 And then I’d have a break in between there. Why don’t I just exercise and then on may have a four and a five? So you have this six or seven-hour client over a 16-hour workday, and you’re exercising at the same time. And I think probably a lot of listeners, at least coming in through the overtraining door of burnout and fatigue and exhaustion. And the irony is, it’s not because you’re doing something that’s perceived as unhealthy, you’re doing something that’s healthy in a, in too much of a way that you are literally burning the candle at both ends. So as far as was that a wake-up call for you? Or did you buy into what they were saying? Did you feel that oh, well, I just can continue exercising at the pace I can like, what was your first instinct, when you heard about that?   Vanessa Bartlett: I was actually relieved because, to be honest, this had been going on for over two years. So this is two years of dealing with fatigue, as your listeners would know, and not knowing or understanding what it was. So there was a sense of relief, but at the same time, a bit of a shock to then go hang on a sec, if I want to get better if I want to feel like my old self. I’m nowhere near that. But he’s telling me I’ve got to stop what I do for a living and what I love, which is exercise. That was a little bit difficult to manage at first. And when I was working in gyms, the managers were really happy with me because I was bringing a lot of numbers into these classes. And you know, and then when I went to them and said, I’ve got to pull back on, you know, these classes, especially the higher intensity ones, because I thought, in my mind, before looking into any of this or understanding it, I thought from a basic level of understanding this fatigue thing, if I was to do something that exerted less energy, surely that can help me. So decreasing the intensity, just in my personal training mindset was the first thing I thought I can do for myself, what if I just didn’t push as hard in the pump class or use less weight, that would be less energy or demand on my body. So therefore that might help. So I started to pull back. But yeah, getting that message across to my managers and the people I work with is really difficult. And I felt kind of lonely for quite a while because no one understood it. And no one saw it as a visible illness or condition, so to speak, because it’s not really visible, they still kind of look the same. And all of that. So that’s yeah, so that’s what kind of what happened. And it was mixed emotions, really. But then I knew deep down, I had to change something because I knew I didn’t want to feel like that. So the pain of feeling how I was, was definitely outweighing the difficulty of the change I was about to embark on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Sure, sure. So then did you be for that two-year period? Vanessa, when did you were not having the energy that you used to have? How complex? Did it impact you? Was there a change in your body image? Or was there brain fog? Or was there what like, give us a breakdown of all the things that were involved just in case someone else is listening to this and they say, You know what, I’ve been exercising a lot too. But I don’t know if I have those same things.   Vanessa Bartlett: Sure. There’s a mixture of things that were happening, it was definitely brain fog and not being quick, you know, like quick in my mind to think of things or to come up with answers for things, everything was becoming an effort mentally, but also physically and emotionally. So there were three main components that were really on the downward the emotional, the physical, and mental. So my brain wasn’t firing. I was very lethargic and heavy, with this sense of heaviness in my body. So lifting what would be fairly light or moderate weight, nothing crazy, was becoming so hard such an effort. So the effort level went up, which made everything again mentally harder. And then so emotionally, you kind of go down and start to question, okay, what am I doing? Like, what, why is this happening? you question yourself, I would question myself. What? QUESTION Well, I’m supposed to be eating well, what’s going wrong here? I’m supposed to be exercising, these are all somewhat healthy things. How can this be happening? What else will happen a lowered immune system so you’re getting sick a lot? As I mentioned, that was another telltale sign, which I didn’t realize, but I learned that my immune system was being compromised because my hormones were out. So I did end up getting you to know, thyroid tests, my thyroid or roid was actually overactive. At one point, a lot of people have an underactive thyroid. Mine was overactive at one point as well. Hormones are all over the place. I was waking up at 2 am. Of course, we know that’s a very common thing with so many of the listeners probably having that two and 3 am very much alert, wake up but then not being able to get practice. And having to get up at five or six or seven is really difficult. Yeah, so those were the main things.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. It’s not fun stuff. So as far as the training volume goes, what was I mean, you’re teaching a couple of classes a day doing your own workouts, taking your client, like, give us a breakdown on what that looked like, first of all.   Vanessa Bartlett: At that time, I was teaching probably 15 sessions a week. So that’s a that’s quite a lot over the course of six days. And that that’s overtraining, I mean, I understand that now. But it’s definitely overtraining for, you know, I’m not an elite athlete going into the Olympics, so that you don’t need to do four hours a day of exercise, most people don’t. And so that was the load. And then within that was mostly weights, cardio intensity, interval training, cardio circuits, boxing, so so heavy load, or what I would say is heavily loaded stuff. At that point, there was no yoga or pilates or tai chi or meditation, which is what I then, you know, group into that second category of the mind-body and the more modified light approaches we could one could take during adrenal fatigue. So I learned very quickly that I needed to be open to that and started to learn those disciplines as well. But that was the load at the time. And then so teaching clients participating with them to show them demos and stuff, and then being in the pump class doing that for one-hour pump class. But then obviously, when I realized I had the fatigue started to really pull back on the use of lighter weights. And then eventually I cut back and I quit teaching all those hard classes. So for a period there, there were months and months where I just said to the more I’m out, I’m tapping out now I can’t do it. I’m not doing it. Because I know that this is interfering with my recovery, which that’s a big key. If you’re still getting those signs and symptoms, even if you’ve modified your exercise, and you’re still not feeling right, that’s a sign to me the stumbling to pull back even further until your body can handle that load.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I mean, the reason I’m going down this line of questioning, Vanessa is because I think that people whether they’re teaching or not, they need to see the volume as it’s not a surprise, right? I mean, if you’re teaching the class, the pump classes, and that’s one way that you’re getting your exercises, and then you’re demonstrating and showing the clients, that’s another way, and then you’re actually doing your own workouts, which is, which is another way. And then ultimately, there, it’s like I The analogy is you’re always watering a plant, at some point, you got to take the water away and let the sunlight to come in and let your growth and recovery happen big after the stimulus. So I guess that’s a good transition. So you realize the writing’s on the wall, I gotta back off, was it really hard from a psyche standpoint to back off and not do the same intensity and kind of get us too caught up with now what you actually do based on your own learning experiences?   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah, it was hard, because at that time, as well, everyone in the gym, all the trainers were doing that load. So it was not, it didn’t seem unusual for me to teach 12 to 15 classes a week, quite full on because that’s what everyone’s doing. And I was that’s, that’s the other thing that was difficult was to go hang on, if they can handle this, why are they not feeling so fatigued, and they’re buzzing around after class, whereas I have to go and sleep for three hours in the middle of the day, before I pick up another, you know, reception shift or something back at the gym. So that was difficult because I felt like I wasn’t able to keep up with my peers and what the normal people and the normal trainers were able to do. But then I realized, well, everyone’s body is different. And we all have different thresholds and all of that, that kind of stuff happening. And then there’s the element of what else has happened in your life that may be stressful or taking energy and causing you to go into the stress response a lot, which is, you know, a big contributor to this as well for people. So yeah, that obviously led me into learning are being open to Pilates and yoga and going learning and sitting them sitting in the back of those classes. Because mentally I wasn’t really into it. I was thinking, Oh, what is this stuff or it’s a bit slow for me because all the fitness industry had taught me at that point was you sweat, you push hard and you do X amount of classes a week. And then you work on reception in between and that’s it. There was none of this talk of recovery Mind Body deep breathing to balance things out. There was none of that. So I became very much open to it. Although I had a barrier at first because I was a little impatient perhaps. But it did teach me balance. I ended up sitting at the back of that first Pilates class going Ah, I don’t feel so heavy after this. My gosh, did I just do You have an ounce of energy you know, I just feel an ounce of my old self in there somewhere where I could go and enjoy the day not have to go home to sleep after this exercise session. Wow, this could be on could be onto something here. So that yeah, I just went in kind of embraced all that and Wendy courses on Pilates especially and fell in love with yoga as well and, and that kind of stuff. And then I’ve since integrated that into fitness to create a more balanced, holistic sustainable coach for people and myself wanting.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, also to kudos on that. I think of cross-training, not so much as what you think of as cross-training. But in terms of different systems, right, like the stretching and the gentle movements and the mind connection and the breath work and then the contraction. Were you finding that because that’s a big problem still with me to this day is giving enough, I guess enough love to the stretch component of it was that something that was missing hugely or you had already always done that, like just curious.   Vanessa Bartlett: I’d always done that. Because I had a background in dancing as well from when I was young. So stretching and you know, ballet, pilates type moves were not too foreign to me. But doing them in the sense of a workout was kind of okay, how this, how can this be deemed the workout now? Is this going to be my workout, because that’s at a crossroads to go, I either keep doing exercise, which is really hurting me right now, or learn to enable these other forms of movement as my exercise, how can I get my muscles to feel like they’re getting, you know, a workout and resistance and strength. So that stretching wasn’t foreign. But I would say the core and the speed and doing movements in a more controlled manner with awareness of breath with awareness of muscle activation, was a new concept. And that was something that really and truly helped with adrenal fatigue recovery, learning to slow things down, and so forth, and appreciate how you know, some days a stretch, a really good stretch, where you’re pulling your arm forward and reaching to your leg, it’s not just a hamstring stretch, you’re actually contracting the quad. So if you’ve got nothing else, if you’re no energy, you can just simply sit there, gently contract the cord, you’re still doing a little bit of muscle activation, which is better than nothing. And you stretch forward. And that can allow our system to open our circulation open and our body to actually activate the parasympathetic nervous system too, which is super handy here.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and that’s what you were saying before we got started. So I guess how did it? I mean, it obviously the obvious was it, that you’re tapped out and you’re no longer doing these classes anymore? And then did you see it as hey, I’m gonna use this as sort of a business opportunity. Because there’s got to be other Vanessa’s out there that have just burned both candles that are the candle at both ends. And they need this too or was it that? Like, yeah, I guess the genesis of where you got it. Tell us about how you got into that or what you decided and so forth.   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah. All right. You know, at that time, I didn’t see it as a business opportunity at all, because I just wanted to get, I wanted to sort myself out. And I thought, Alright, if I can learn to exercise and get back to feeling like my old self and get over this adrenal thing, which did take over two years, by the way. So from the point of figuring out, I had it to then actually getting better. And I’m talking about in every regard, not just yesterday, so that took over two years for me to fully come out of it. During that time, I did change as I was still working in the gym, but not doing as many classes and still had my own clients. But obviously, pull back with the physical. So in the health consults, I was questioning people more because when they come in tired, I’d ask them more questions, thinking maybe they’ve got what I’ve got, not trying to, you know, tell everyone at the gym, this new thing that no one ever talked about just adrenal fatigue and burnout. But it did so happen that many people were experiencing fatigue or noticing they weren’t recovering from workouts or overtraining, like some of the moms were diligent that helped coming in five days a week doing 10 hours, which was almost as much as I was doing as the trainer said to one of them one day, still have a break, have time off, just do what I do. It’s okay, your body’s telling you, right, because you don’t want this to get worse. So I ended up kind of advising people who came in with similar symptoms or just had a bit of a sense stance to where their exercise just to go, Hey, it’s okay to pull back. So that, you know, went on for a while, and I decided then, probably another year or so on from that, that my passion really lay in Pilates so I actually quit the gym altogether and did Pilates for many years before this actually, just on its own, I just did Pilates because that was kind of my thing where I went well, this is really the baseline where I could work my strength, my core. My cardio was, you know, walking around the block at that point, because I had to scale it right back that was enough to do what I needed enough to maintain my weight. And so I ended up just doing Pilates at that point and became known as the Pilates person in my local area and not the hardcore gym person from the other team in the local area. It’s like a Vanessa does Pilates now just Pilates. So go to her studios subleasing studios and so forth. I suppose this whole collaboration of I got to a point with Pilates where I went, Okay, I love this I can I know how Pilates has helped me heal and recover from Adrenal Fatigue and given me a whole other body awareness level that I didn’t know about with core and mind-body work, which is what we’re discussing before. But what then do you do to get your fitness back again, how, you know, if you want to become so specific with losing weight, and with achieving, you know, a marathon or something like that, again, once you’ve had the capability and the capacity to do that, you have to do more than Pilates. So that’s where I started to think, recently, just a few years ago, actually, how can I combine the best of all of this and give people something where you can rebuild your entire fitness very safely? Well, it’s pulling in the best of all those things, isn’t it? It’s, it’s Pilates. It’s the yoga, it’s the meditation, it’s strength work, it’s the weight, but done in a way that honors your body and honors your adrenal system. That’s kind of how that evolved.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s cool. Yeah, thanks for sharing. I like the evolution, I could definitely identify when they would come in, and you would do your assessments and figure out where their plateaus are, and what they’re looking to gain. And I think that’s a really important thing in terms of any, any consulting business, whether you’re a doctor, or you’re a financial planner, is okay, what are your goals here? Right and get down to Okay, are you meeting your goals? Do you feel satisfied, you know, is everything sort of in an alignment, and then realizing that, no, I’m working out hard, and it’s not getting to where I want to go to, and I don’t feel like I’m getting the results that I want, I can appreciate that where you’re coming from. And now you have a new set of eyes in terms of hey, it’s not more is better. It’s just like when we talk about with, you can outrun the refrigerator like you could come into the gym every single day. But if you’re not focusing on your diet, then it takes it to the next level if you’re not focusing on your stressors, and I guess if you had a stress meter, and it was overflowing, all the exercise in the world, especially all the exercise in the world, and all the great dietary approaches, isn’t going to address that. So I could definitely see how that evolved. And then the Pilates. So now tell us how you combine that because people that are listening to this are probably thinking, hey, yeah, I’ve burnt out and it wasn’t necessarily gym related. Although I used to love to go to the gym, I could never do that anymore. I probably burnt out because of my job, my family, my children, my finances, and my physical injuries. But I do want to get back into and a lot of people will say, Well, you can’t you have to do this first. So how do you figure that out? What’s your approach, Vanessa?   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah, sure. So I think it’s important just to note for anyone listening, appreciate where you’re at, and really know where you’re at. If you’re, if you’ve just discovered you’ve got adrenal fatigue, like I did, you know, years ago, and you’ve just kind of getting into a recovery plan. That’s not the time to commit to doing a half marathon, right, you’re just going to put more stress and load on your body. So being okay with where you’re at if you’re coming out of it. On the other end, you know, the world is your oyster, this is the time where your energy is probably on the uphill, you’re probably getting back into work, or you may have changed work or you’ve got your emotional triggers under control these and that was a big thing for me, too. Not only did I feel for myself, it was not only the physical burnout, but I had a lot of emotional stuff on I wasn’t very good at emotionally navigating my life and would over-commit to things. And as you said at the very start, you know, I am quite persistent with things. When I see something that I feel fits for myself and someone else I’m very persistent that sometimes in life that can burn you out because you want more for others. You know, we’re talking about family and friends and stuff here, right? You want more for others than they want for themselves or you want to see them do So Well, you put so much in, and that’s an emotional thing as well. So once you’ve got that kind of understanding of where you’re at with that bigger picture, then you can go, okay, how can I incrementally increase my exercise here to get to my goals? And as you said, identify the goals first, Dr. Joel. So, no, all right. Maybe at the moment, I’ve come, I’ve only got the capacity to walk around the block for five minutes, and then I’m kind of done. That’s okay. Maybe in a month, can you maybe incrementally increase that to do two minutes extra a week? So we’re working on different aspects. And this is where I discovered what I learned years ago in fitness, which is one thing that did help me with it coming back from fatigue and building up is the fit principle, fit T frequency, intensity, type, and time. That is the basic fitness principle that we all follow for programming in any way, shape, or form around the world. Right? So you’ve got your frequency, how often are you doing it at your intensity? What is the intensity at which your workout is at your heart rate and so forth? The type? What style of exercise are you doing? Is it congruent to your goals, and then the time as well, how long, and the type? So you can basically play around with this fit principle, and incrementally build those components as your body tells you and allows you over time. And so having little goals once a month to go. Alright, I want to get back into the gym client of mine has been coming to me when he was really bummed out. And I said that you cut the weights for a little bit, just a little bit. But now we’re back where you know, he’s doing his weights, he’s running on the treadmill. And this is, you know, someone who was very burned out. Another lady of mine, I told her to cut back from two hours at the gym because she was going home like me sleeping for three hours after the workouts and like, it’s too much, Olivia, we’ve got a pullback here, let your body recover. So keep in mind that you can build up but whatever you build up, your body will tell you if it’s too much pull back when needed and ensure you bring in into that recovery. And these days, I don’t allow people I don’t allow my clients or myself to do too many hard sessions in a week without complementing it with deep breath work with stretching, not just a two-minute stretch at the end of a workout. But an actual stretch and meditation session, which is Dean does the session on that Saturday 15 to 20 minutes. So you don’t just have to do that after the weights. Learning to appreciate is a really great way, these softer modalities that Pilates they’re not always easy, by the way, yoga and pilates, depending on what you do. But appreciating that meditation stretches time, allowing time for the deep brain to activate all those nice things within the parasympathetic nervous system is crucial. So that’s the way to do it. You can incrementally build your listening to your body.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s great, great, great answers. I think that the Fit principle is universal, and it’s a good parameter to go by. Also, too, I was just thinking, as you were saying a lot of people that would have that tendency to workout excessively or obsessively, there’s probably something that’s not being identified as to why they’re doing that they’re running away from some of their challenges, and they’re getting rid of the excess energy. And they may have a lot of other stressors, which is therapeutic in the sense that you’re getting, you’re training trading one stimulus for too much of another stimulus. So I think it’s important for that person to identify why are you being obsessive or excessive in the gym for that reason, and realize that working harder isn’t going to necessarily solve that problem. The other thing I think is really important too is that the goals have to be not necessarily alike it’s important to have I think physical goals and you want to have a certain waistline or you want to have a certain strength but I think also the performance schools are important, right in terms of capacities and things like that. I think those are super important as well. As far as Do you stress that with your clients is to figure out if they can figure out if their flexibility or their chronological age or whatever it is, that isn’t necessarily the aesthetics to you does that get born into what you do as well?   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah, really good point. That’s actually the basis of what I formulate everything on now. So especially because a lot of people do come to me where they can’t do mainstream fitness or they’re in some kind of burnout exhaustion, adrenal fatigue, thyroid issues are similar, you know, this kind of scope thing. Things so for these people for myself as well. I realized quickly and by the way, I did, I was at that time, and I now read Lies why I’m carrying a little bit of excess belly fat that I’ve never had. But that makes total sense now, right? Because you and your listeners know that that’s all definitely related to the cortisol and all that kind of thing. And the adrenal system is out of whack and that telltale sign of belly fat. And so that’s, that’s the kind of the problem that we have is that people want to lose the belly fat. But if they’re in a really bad adrenal fatigue, that is a challenge. So for me, letting them know and letting you guys know, whoever’s listening, that put the weight loss goal. Second, for now, let’s get your health and your basic movement up again, let’s build that up to a capacity where your body can handle the required exercise to really hone in on that waistline, if that’s your goal, really build strength in your body, for weights and so forth. So the aesthetic goals on my list, and I’ll let people know very first session, hey, we’re going to, that’s fine, we can do that we can get this 10 kilos off. But we’re going to look at that in a few months when I know you can handle this. And so getting in line these basic measures, like you said, how Alright, so how many pushups can you do if you can’t do two push-ups, you can’t lose belly fat in the next 30 days, because you probably don’t have the capacity, do that right to do the exercise required for that. And you know, hone in on the eating and so forth when your hormones are out. So it’s a real holistic view that people need to take. But definitely looking at, yeah, let’s get that going. Again, don’t be down on yourself feels like doing 40 Push-ups, and now you’re doing 10 And you’re done. Don’t be you know, upset with yourself. That’s a real thing of where I see a lot of people get angry with themselves or have this period of time where you’re going, oh my gosh, like I used to do martial arts. Now. I can’t even move my leg, I’m so fatigued, or I’ve lost all that strength and mobility. That’s okay. So I do take people through a bit of a fitness test and go Yeah, that’s cool. Let’s look at your core. How’s that working? How? How’s your upper body strength? How are your legs? Can you handle a walk around the block? Can you run around the block? Where are you at with all of these different fitness components, which is fantastic? Because in you know, two or three months, those would have improved, absolutely. And then we can go great now you can really hone in on I’ll help you hone in on what it takes to get that waistline back in again, with all of the other pillars in the exercise working nicely.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I know that I think it’s really important for that to be understood by you, and by them going into it. And I think that the evolution of fitness, I mean, I was a trainer a long time ago, and things have changed, although a lot of the things have stayed the same where you still have the break the body parts up into back and biceps and this and then you will have the hybrids of CrossFit or I used to call it cross fake, I would do like my own CrossFit. But on my own, but stuff like that. And I guess now where do Where did the dangers I guess exist in terms of okay, I’m want to do the safe movements. And at the same time, I have to realize that there are new norms, I think that another key takeaway is you may never be where you were before. And you have to be okay with that. And maybe you get better than that. But you can’t benchmark it as ah, I’m not where I was this, this sucks. It’s not fair, because you’re gonna have new normals. But, uh, but as far as how do you determine if they’re on that slippery slope again? Are you doing certain check-ins or tell me what you do with that?   Vanessa Bartlett: Exactly. That’s exactly what I call them as well check-ins as just emailing a couple of people this morning, checking in for the week. So you know, either face to face and really looking see the thing is with this journey, it’s not just when you’re coming out of adrenal fatigue, or you’ve got adrenal fatigue and these similar issues which cause you to really look at your overall life. You’ve got to look at the exercise and be willing to track it and be willing to go, Okay, what is because I’ve, it’s pretty much what I’ve come to is it’s an art and it’s a science. It’s built using our basic foundational fitness building blocks to build someone up. But with the respect that your body’s had either burnout or adrenal fatigue, we whatever you want to call it, some kind of condition where you have been extraordinarily, extraordinarily exhausted for a period of time, where it’s affected you on many, many levels, including the cells of your body. Right. So that takes time. So checking in with people and going Hey, how did you go with and when they give me the green light? I’ll be like, Yep, cool. You know, Manish it’s time to do that. 10-minute run, right? You’ve been doing five unsatisfied, you’ve been doing 757 minutes at this pace. Right now. You’re gonna give me 10 minutes this week, twice. And let’s See how that goes. And then we check-in, and we check-in. So we check on in the components, you check in on the flexibility, you check in on how your body’s feeling. So they might say, Oh, that sounds like a lot of work. It’s not really if you’ve got someone like, I kind of do the work for them, I’m coaching them, I’m giving them notes and stuff like that, if I can see that you’re adapting well to this, the beauty about this, is if you do really listen to your body and track those little components alongside what you’re doing, you will never have any setbacks. So you won’t be faced with those crashes. Because what would happen with me when I was learning all of this, and I was woken up, as you can imagine, I would go, Okay, I’m feeling good. Like, let’s say six months after stopping the gym stuff, right? So this is like, no wait anymore. I’ve had that break from all the hard stuff. I had an ounce of energy that day. And I’d be like, Alright, let’s go. And let’s just go and try some pulley weights today. So that would go into my head and be like, alright, Vanessa, this is what you used to do. Alright, you’re not going to do what you did a year ago. Let’s just do half that and see what happens. So I do these experiments with myself. But then for a really long time, I would push too hard, and then be faced with a sacrifice and paying the price. So I’ve paid the price where I’ve had to then go done it, I shouldn’t have done weights yet, I should have just stopped to resistance bands because I’ve been handling the bands while in the Pilates well with my body. For me, the weights were just a massive, massive thing that would always set me back. It’s not the same for everyone. But it is for a lot of people with adrenal fatigue, I find just so loaded. So I have to go sleep for another three hours. I’m like, oh, like five steps forward, three steps back. But that’s okay, we’re still progressing. So now that I know all of this, I kind of have a system where I tell people to follow and go, This is how you can safely incrementally increase. Don’t go from doing yoga, then jumping into weights because you think you better know, you have to build strength through body weight, through resistance bands, and through lighter apparatus. Once you can handle that. You’ve got the green light to then go wait. So I’m very incremental with people these days. So that you avoid those setbacks and those crashes and feeling demotivated going, I have just done all this. Now, I’m back here again. No, we don’t want you to get those crashes. We want you to progress and enjoy exercise and gain energy from it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s awesome. As far as I can see the evolution of just all the hard work and dedication you’ve put into understanding this, the progressive overload is that concept that you have to understand as sort of the layperson as you want to do it as is for the stress response and the hormetic stress that you put on the body, you want to do just a little bit above and beyond what the body’s capable of doing. Not a little below it, because if you don’t go it’s like an all or none. But the thing is, is that if you remember, like when I first was a trainer, and I wanted to give someone a really good workout, they couldn’t move their arms or their legs very much because they were in so much pain, and they didn’t like me and they wouldn’t want to continue, then you realize pretty quickly, okay, just these people are deconditioned, it doesn’t take very much to do above and beyond that load that you need to do and really realize what that is. And that’s, I think that’s the art of exercise and you need a good trainer to teach you like you need to know when you’ve hit that. And that also changes the perspective of okay, if you’re going to the gym because you’re escaping things, or you’re being obsessive or it’s unhealthy, because of whatever reasons, realize that that’s not even healthy to do it for that amount of time, you’ve already long gone over that progressive overload stimulus, and that’s where injuries occur and so forth. So I think that’s important. But do you are you finding now a lot of people do find that and I get that a lot with my feedback from inquiries is, that I just don’t have the tolerance, I crash if I do too much. The doctor told me that I shouldn’t. And then they ended up throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and they didn’t do anything. So are you finding that that’s happening still, or they’re not doing it and they’re being told wrong information? Where are we on that?   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah. By the time people contact me, I suppose I think they’re ready for the movement because they can see you know, I do personal training, too, for people with burnout and beyond. So that’s good. So they’re ready, but they’ve just known I often get people saying, I’ve tried x y Zed, or I, you know, tried to do what I used to do with my marathon training. I’ve tried to do CrossFit again, but it’s just not working for me, it’s still set me back. So that’s where I can be like, Hey, this is cool. We can sort this out. There are other ways to build you up safely without the crashes. But yes, there is also So this I see people who don’t do anything at all for a really long time. You know, because yeah, maybe they’ve been advised by that. And it’s tricky because you want. There are so many different experts, I suppose people are going to feel adrenal fatigue, especially now there’s so much on the internet as well. So depends on whose advice you’re taking, right? So some might say just do yoga, as the exercise. Whereas I’ll say, you know, there’s a way we can combine all these amazing modalities so that you’re not bored, but be so that you’re training at different fitness levels, and so forth. But at the end of the day, if people can remember that, even, you know, in your worst, your worst tiredness, you can, you can lay on the bed and lift your arm and do a breath with it. You know, that’s, that’s a movement. That’s something interesting. That’s why I fell in love with Pilates just to go on with that for a sec. Joseph Pilates actually trained people to rehab in hospital beds, that’s where this whole thing started 100 years ago. So interestingly enough, he was helping injured sick people with muscular strength at their worst. So that’s kind of another thing I love about that is that there’s a way to do something, but it’s a mindset thing, too. But a basic fitness principle, we all need to do exercise for our life, right? No matter what or movement or call it movements. So even if you change your mindset, and then there’s the other side of people that come in and go, Well, hey, if I’m just if I’m not going to be running or doing weights, I don’t want to do anything like what’s the point? Like way your mindsets got to change movement is what you need. setbacks and crashes are not what you need. So where’s that nice middle-ground for you to enjoy something really depends on where people are at with their journey with this, I think but if your listeners can just know that, at some point, you’ve got to challenge your body and get up off that couch and do a bit of something. You know, even on a date, if you’re having a really bad week, and you are just tired all the time, there might be one day, which is a tiny bit better than the rest. And that one day, get up and do two minutes of a walk around your house if you’ve done nothing for a year, or you know, so there are different degrees of anything. But just knowing that it’s safe to do a little bit of something, and will do you really good.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a good answer. And all have been really great answers you have to move. There are no two ways about it. You don’t have a seat at the bargaining table that, you know if you’re allowed if you shouldn’t, or you shouldn’t you have to move. And that’s the irony is, it’s like the person that doesn’t have work experience and how can they get a job if no one’s giving them work experience? I don’t have energy, how can I exercise if I don’t have energy, but by doing something, you’re gonna get energy out of it? And I think a lot of people have never ever felt, what it feels like to be healthy and what it feels like to be fit. And don’t realize that it’s going to take time and the body’s amazing and its resiliency to overcome any specific adaptation, right? So you have to exercise there are no two ways about it, we were so much more active. We’re meant to be moving creatures, you know, up being sitting down, standing up getting outside going for walks, you know, we’re you have to do that no matter how tired and fatigued you are. That’s something that you don’t, you don’t have a bargaining chip at the table to decide you can’t do that you have to do it. So as far as you have your own program now it sounds like with the self program, what’s that all about? Tell us about that.   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah, I have, well, I have an online program as well called adrenal fit. And the adrenal fit is fantastic. I’ve given you basically all the protocols and some really great nurturing routines to do it’s home plan. So that’s for people who don’t want to go down the path of coaching and so forth. Otherwise, you can always jump in and do some one-to-one coaching with me, which is obviously personalized to what you need. And what I realized too, and this whole journey is, as you said before tapping into these other pillars like sleep and food and stresses and all of that it all comes into it. So where you’re at with those things can really help or hinder the exercise as well. So if you kind of really wants to overhaul things, getting a good look at those lifestyle pillars and how one can complement the other is a really great way as well and help me give you a little bit more energy for the movement component itself and minimizing stress. It’s all about minimizing stress first the people I think, so the exercise seems stressful to you. Don’t think of exercise anymore as you have like exercises, CrossFit, or marathons. No, it’s just movement. It’s moving our bodies in different directions. It’s breathing. It’s stretching out the muscles and just dead dance in your living room to a song you like, you know, just be happy and do something joyful because that will bring about a lot of positive energy as well. especially for people who are going through adrenal fatigue, you put on a song I guarantee that you love, and you would find the energy to dance to it right? You know, so finding ways to make things fun as well for yourself.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, I tell I mean, I have a background in, in psychology, and there was a term called cognitive dissonance where if you have a feeling, and you have a different action, you’re going to have internal strife, because like an example is, you know, smoking is bad for you, but you’re smoking, and you want to be in alignment with that. So you can either stop smoking, and you’re in alignment, or you can justify it and say, Oh, it’s not really that bad. The whole reason that I’m saying that is because I think establishing a connection with the mind and body releases that internal turmoil that you have with the unhealthy behaviors and the unhealthy mind and you really, the mind and the body are the same things. And you have to work the mind and the body. By delivering blood flow and getting the heart and lungs pumping and getting oxygen and removing waste products. It’s just, that you have to move. So awesome stuff. I was just curious to know, do you do specific workups? Or you’re looking at biomarkers? Are you bringing that into the game as well? Just curious, in terms of, are you working with professionals that do that as well? Or what’s your angle on that?   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah, I pretty much I ask clients if they’re working with other doctors, and so forth, give me the information you’ve got from whatever you’ve got. And I can kind of help look at that. I won’t delve into things that I don’t know a lot about. But definitely in terms of the what, you know, other experts they’re working with, I often reach out to them as well and get people to help or if I feel that my clients need a little bit more of a deep dive into some certain things. Yeah, I recommend that they go and see some of my recommended people. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think it’s important. I think I’m doing some research now on longevity markers. And I’d like it if a person can look at some of these more exotic tests like intracellular NAD, or you’re looking at these methylation numbers of DNA that talk about chronological versus biological age. And then you exercise, I think that’s kind of where we’re headed. Yeah. And I think it’ll be interesting to see where that goes.   Vanessa Bartlett: I’d love to hear more about that actually. As well. Because, you know, different things come into this as well like menopause, hormones, and age and different things. Other than, you know, going into adrenal fatigue as well. So that’s, yeah, I’d like to kind of learn more about that as well, and look into how that can tie in nicely with all of this recovery for people.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I mean, the good news is, is that your yours is the major rock that makes that gets put in the bucket first in terms of exercise, and if exercise was able to be patented into a drug, it makes gazillions of dollars, because such a therapeutic benefit that you know, no matter what different tests you do to the cows, they’re gonna get better with exercise. And, when we say exercise, we mean movement. And we mean calf work, and we mean connecting to your body and your core, and being able to contract and relax. It’s funny, just as a side story, I had an exercise physiology degree, and I had a psychology degree, and there was a professor at my school. And he said that he had both of those. And I was like, Oh, that was cool because I was almost going to go forward in psychology. And he says, as far as he knows, he’s the only one that’s able that’s licensed to stretch, stretch and shrink at the same time. And I think it’s important in terms of, you know, like, you need to stretch and you need to contract, you know, you need to contract your muscles, you need to stretch your muscles, you need to breathe into your muscles, you need to do all those things. So awesome information and you have clients worldwide that you’re able to work with.   Vanessa Bartlett: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I have clients in a few countries. And that’s the great thing about technology. I can just jump on Zoom like I’m on with you right now in different time zones. So I’ve got some openings in my calendar, my early morning and late evenings to cater to Americans are not so difficult, but sometimes the UK and so forth are opposite ends when we’re in daylight savings. So one in the evenings is really cool, but on that stretch and strengthen thing too. It’s really interesting. I was working with some professional footballers here. So when I went down the Pilates path, a couple of really cool people I’ve worked with professional footballers here, a first-grade rugby league team, and mega up there, only now a few years ago started to open up more to Pilates breathwork recovery more so incorporated more than they would have in the past, you know, gone years gone by these, the trainers are becoming more aware of what is the best that athletes can do here. It’s not just about pushing hard and football as you can imagine from our training in the 1980s. Yeah, there would have been no stretching and no recovery. So that’s really cool to see as well that evolution. So it’s like, well, if football is and I try to say this to my partner, and people who are still maybe a little old school mentality going okay can only do weights and cardio to get my workouts in? What about Pilates and resistance, Ben, meditation, all that stuff? Same with adrenal fatigue or anyone, right? If it’s okay for the elite athletes who are hardcore footballers to make time for this stuff now, right? The rest of us should be as well. And other athletes would have known this for many years, but football is caught up with it, which is good. And working with some mental health clients here as well, where we were actually helping them with this kind of stuff to help with anxiety, depression, and so forth. So that was a very specialized thing I was doing there with the local groups, which is really great. And so you know, this is big stuff. But that element of finding that balance of stretch, strength, and breath work. That’s what encompasses fitness and exercise these days. Yeah, I just wanted to make that point. Because I know a lot of people still think, well, if I’m not working hard and sweating, I’m not getting any benefit. But that’s not true.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, not at all. I mean, especially if they’ve done a core strength workout before and realize how hard it is, as far as I was gonna mention that when you brought up Pilates, and I liked that you did the adaptation of where it used to be, I think more physical limitations, maybe there’s an organic or just an exhaustion component too but I like how you’ve spun it to be able to cater to people that just don’t have the capacity, not necessarily because they’re injured. But they’re, I guess, energetically injured in that sense to be able to do that. And then I could see how it would be adapted to professionals because you have lengthening and control of muscle contractions and better balance and better body awareness, less risk for injuries. And, you know, when you’re paying a high income, athlete, gazillions of dollars, you want to protect your investment as much as you can and make sure they stay on the field as much as possible. So just sort of a question that we always ask our guests, Vanessa, when we’re getting close to wrapping up as far as now that you know what you know, now, versus what you didn’t know, then what do you think you would have done differently that may have avoided some challenges? Or maybe accelerated some, some benefits? Or both? What do you think you would have told the younger Vanessa?   Vanessa Bartlett: Go easy on yourself? You know, don’t if your intuition is telling you things, but other people are telling you something else. Go with you. You’ve got to honor yourself. That’s what I realized I kept, you know, I was a very big people pleaser. You know, and that’s, that was a big part of probably what led me to burnout. Because I wouldn’t say no to the gym, I kept taking on stuff, kept taking on stuff, didn’t wanna let people down, and will let people down in my personal life. So push myself to the brink. Right? So honor yourself and what your body’s telling you, without guilt, and that’s without guilt as well, because then we often have this thing where Oh, okay, oh, my gosh, I said no to something all but then they might think this or that, or, Oh, but then I won’t gain results because I didn’t do the weights I should. So then you have this mental game just on yourself, be present, and accept where you’re at. And know that this is a chapter that you will overcome. But you’ve got to be willing to look at your life. The big thing as well, I think, is to look internally, which is kind of like you know, listening to yourself and your intuition. There’ll be a lot presented to you with, you know, this will speed up there. So what can I do to speed this up? What can I do to stay asleep at night, you’ve got to look at the foundations. And that’s what I realized I was quickly overwhelmed with external, so-called solutions, but until I mastered myself, my health, my emotional management, my ability to say, No, that’s what helps with the overall healing process and my energy capacity in all areas, physical, mental, emotional, to rebuild and get back to a level for myself of where I want to be in life. So that’s what I would do differently. That’s what I tell people just on yourself.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Great advice. I think it’s like the whole theme of the interview is less is more right in terms of you do less and you get more so as far as where does the listener find you? And I know you have different socials. So why don’t you share? And I’ll put that in the link to where we’re going to be posting it. But if they’re listening to this, where would they be able to get in contact with you?   Vanessa Bartlett: Sure. So the main website is Vanessa B health.com. And from there, you can jump on Instagram, Vanessa B health, it’s up in SP health, Instagram Facebook page, and the YouTube channel, Vanessa B Health TV as well. If you want to grab a free download of my belly fat Buster, you can on the website or sign up for the monthly newsletter there. And there are heaps of free workouts on my YouTube channel, which are all beginner friendly, adrenal friendly and progressive and so forth, as you can imagine from this interview, so, but then specifically there, we have a really great playlist for people going through adrenal fatigue, which is very nurturing, and very nice to get that movement in as we’ve been discussing for you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, that’s great. I mean, it’s great that you’ve gone into that area because it’s much needed. I think there’s a lot of misinformation with the term adrenal fatigue, let alone if you should be exercising and nothing made me more upset than a doctor because I had an exercise physiology background that would tell me if I should or I shouldn’t exercise, let alone if what I should or shouldn’t eat, because they’re not taught nutrition either. But I think that they have their best intentions in terms of they want you to get better, but not necessarily giving you the best advice, even though their intentions might sound so awesome that you have that resource, and want to thank you for spending the time with me today. I know he got up a little earlier and got the boys taken care of. But thank you so much for sharing with us and I look forward to hearing more about your journey in the future.   Vanessa Bartlett: Thank you so much. It’s been amazing being on here. Thank you and I hope to help everyone out there. To Check Vanessa Bartlett’s programs out, go here The post Absolutely The Best Exercises For Suffering From Adrenal Fatigue appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And today I’m joined by a special guest, Jim Howard. He is a 20-year-old healthy 28-year health technology executive, and current CEO of Rita weed out health in St. Louis. Jim’s career started in the pharma industry before transitioning to digital health in the early 2000s, to digital health back in the BlackBerry days. He’s now the co-founder of readout health, which is the maker of sense, which really what we’re going to be talking about today, which is a medical device that tracks fat burning, trans providing real-time feedback, gamification, lots of really cool things on exercise, food behavior modification, specifically as it relates to the exhausted and burnt out adult So, and Jim lives in St. Louis and has lived on a low carb lifestyle since 2018. Jim, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate you spending time with us.   Jim Howard: Yeah, thank you so much. Look forward to our chat here.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So as I always like to start off with your health journey. I know you’ve had multiple surgeries on your knee. So why don’t you give us a little background on just it sounds like you live in integrity with not just manufacturing and supporting health industries in technology that can really transform our health? But it sounds like you have a story and you have the integrity of practicing what you preach. So why don’t you kind of give us a bit of a background on how you got there and just sort of the gym Howard? I guess the elevator version of what’s going on? How did you get here?   Jim Howard: Yeah, so this is, you know, I was an athlete is played college soccer, and I ended up having six knee surgeries way back then. And is a was a Ginosar typical athlete, I ran a lot had, you know, bone on bone joints. And my wife was cute genic for a different chronic disease that was more serious and had adopted a ketogenic lifestyle specifically, and I watched her weight kind of fluctuate up and down. And I noticed that she was doing her fingerprick in the morning. And I always kind of wonder like, you know, ketones go up and down. So you’re getting the snapshot in the morning and she was really struggling with retaining that weight loss and we just something was put on my lap. Essentially, what happened again, is I was starting to adopt out of convenience, the ketogenic lifestyle, and I was having a really fast impact to my on my knee being able to run the ski for the first time in a long time, just is pure inflammation at the same time. The venture firm that I work with had this science project put on our lap, like, hey, these guys figured out, there are two guys that figured out how to measure just the right part of your breath that could replace a blood measurement. That kind of sounds like Theranos, right? And it was like lots. So check that out. And that ended up being the early part of Biosense. And my investment firm, we actually invested in it, I invested in it personally. And then I run the company now and I live the lifestyle of fasting, some cute ketogenic diet I use it’s kind of a variety, mainly fasting. And using that as the therapy and using you know, our own tool like you do, you know, like using it and dosing this, this very therapeutic level of ketosis.   Dr. Joel Rosen: How long ago was that? What like, what time frame? Are we looking at Chrono?   Jim Howard: Yeah, that was 2019. Really right after I had started to adopt the ketogenic at the time, it’s just a pure ketogenic, ketogenic lifestyle. So now we work with whatever the is always carb restriction, but it doesn’t really matter to us. So yeah, that was a few years ago. And then we want spice since two years ago in the consumer market and have learned tons.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So that’s, where we are. Yeah, And that’s what we want to hear. So as relates to the people that I work with, there’s a common myth, a sacred cow of, oh, I have an adrenal fatigue problem, which, of course, as soon as you bring that to the doctor, they look at you like you’re crazy, or they’re going to be the that difficult person that’s doing this internet research. But they’re also told, Hey, you got to eat small meals more frequently, because your cortisol levels are low, your blood sugar is going to drop, and then ultimately, that creates a whole host of other problems because their glucose is always going to be high. So but on the flip side, there’s also misinformation about Oh, I gotta eat 80% keto, or I gotta eat 80% fat and the ketogenic lifestyle is really where it’s at. But I guess for you with the tool that you’ve developed and all the insights that you’ve learned, well, now how do we use the information what You can gain to dictate what is the right approach for that person?   Jim Howard: Yeah, that’s a great point. Because that’s it’s personalized medicine, precision medicine, precision, nutrition, and all of that. And, you know, I think one of the things you said in the first part of that the job was that you know, our physicians, our physicians didn’t, you know, they didn’t say, our primary care doctors, they didn’t study nutrition. They didn’t, they may have had 15 total hours of nutrition education, they’ll be the first ones to talk about that we work with a lot of physicians, you know, we’re a clinical company. So we work with a lot, but there’s, you know, there are very few people that really, really understand metabolism, fat metabolism, especially, you know unless you’re a kind of an endocrine endocrinologist that’s really specialized in this space. So there are just so so few people like you, and I meet at the metabolic health summit. So with that in mind, it’s like that’s not, we can’t just rely on your primary care physician on weight loss or on you know, diabetes reversal and things like that. So I’ve really kind of an early takeaway was like, wait a minute, we’re, we’re learning so much right now. And you cannot expect healthcare to be caught up to that. So people like you are really helping with that. So. So when it comes to these different dietary protocols, all of them that put you into this state of this therapeutic state of this Metabolic flexibility, where you’re burning fat and fuel as your fuel source, when you’re burning fat, to get into that state, everybody is different, you know, we used to think, okay, it’s the ketogenic diet or whatever, it doesn’t really matter. Like, that’s going to work for some people, other people can be vegan and low carb, and it’s going to produce ketone bodies. So think of just ketosis as the state of really fat oxidation. And that’s the reality when is fat oxidation. So, you know, you can limit carbohydrates in just what let’s say, you just watch your blood sugar, watch your blood sugar and keep that, you know, you can mobilize, that’s the mobilization, you can mobilize, you know, triglycerides into, you know, turning into, you know, what could be or will be metabolized by the mitochondria, but that’s just mobilized you to metabolize that and convert fatty acids into ketone bodies that are used as fuel, you get to be in a very carb restrictive environment, okay. And to do that, it doesn’t matter what the protocol is, as long as there’s, there’s, you know, some type of carbohydrate restriction, so it could be a carnivore, it could be low carb, it could be ketogenic, which is high fat, low carb, you know, it’s whatever the flavor of the day is, we don’t, we don’t really care medications can do the suit, some medications can limit, you know, like an StLt inhibitor, we don’t, doesn’t really matter that makes you pee out glucose. So whatever it is, that gets you into that fat, oxidative state, that’s where the benefits are. And these benefits, you know, with Biosense, you know, this is used by us, but you know, you go to like, you blow a five and it’s a zero to 40, you just blow into this device, these lower levels are where your weight loss happens, your higher, you know, moderate levels where I need to be from my knees, and that’s where your chronic inflammation is. And that’s where I get checked, I, I have to be in that, really, for the rest of my life. And because when I kind of come out of that state for a few days, you know, my knee balloons up, and I can’t even carry my kids, and that’s not good. So it’s different for everybody. And that’s the key thing is that you know, you got to use a device to get feedback. And if you don’t have feedback, you don’t know what that specific what a banana does the Joe Versus the banana does jam. And everybody’s different, you know, so different.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? And I liked that you touched upon it doesn’t really matter. I think that we are seeing the trend of keto coming onto the scene. And now we’re really realizing it’s about achieving metabolic flexibility by multitasking, if you will, being aware of your circadian rhythm and making sure that you get good movement and you’re surrounded with friends and family and you know, you’re keeping to a routine, but at the same time, you’re doing things to make sure that your body has the ability to tap into oxygen, oxygen for forbade oxygenation and for energy production. So I guess take us through because I feel a lot of people that do listen to this are sophisticated, and they have done glucose testing with the Keto meter or the Keto Mojo. And I think that’s a good starting point in terms of okay, well, how’s this different Besides, it’s so much easier to not have to prick your finger throughout the day, you’re measuring your breath, but what are the differences metabolically in terms of what do beta-hydroxybutyrate I guess keep Bones signify versus acetone what with breath. Tell us about that.   Jim Howard: Yeah, there are three different types of ketone bodies. There’s the one that’s most frequently measured, arguably most frequently measured is going to be beta-hydroxybutyrate. And that’s, that’s a storage ketone. It’s actually not what your body metabolizes it’s stored in that and converted into acetyl acetate. That’s what your mitochondria actually metabolize. And then acetone is how it leaves your body. That’s your excess. So acetone is Su acetate is pretty, pretty tight. Right? They work hand in hand together. Done, Augustine has got a couple of really good pieces that he’s written about this on his website. So if you’ve ever looked at keto nutrition, but anyway, those are the three types of ketone bodies. So when it comes to beta hydroxy, butyrate in your blood, okay? That is a storage ketone, it is measured, you know, for accuracy from a venous draw, a capillary draw would be what most people would do in the consumer segment. If you’re in a hospital, the good Chancellor using a venous draw, if you’re going to just prick your finger, that’s not the gold standard, that’s about 20% off of what a Venus measurement would be. But it’s a good proxy, you know, use that my wife used that. Unfortunately, she didn’t use it three times a day. And that’s, and it’s important that you do it multiple times, because you’re only going to get a snapshot. And I can tell you, we proved in a clinical trial, he doesn’t maintain that a single measurement in the morning of whatever you use, be it Biosense Or keto Mojo, or Abbott, whatever, is 50% off of a time-weighted average, because they go up and down, not like glucose, you know, boom, boom, boom, boom, but it’s there’s a reaction. So you want to look at that, that curve, what’s the area under the curve, you feel like, at one piece of that curve, you don’t know what your dose of ketosis is, and this is really important is that this, you know, let’s just say it’s a curve that kind of bends up, that’s your, your depth and length in ketosis, that is your dose of therapy. And that dose of therapy is no different theoretically, then a dose of a medication. And if you don’t, if you only know that, hey, I took a drug, I’ve no idea how long it lasted. I have no idea how much of it I took, you’re not really fully informed, are you? That’s what kind of.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, absolutely. Okay, so as far as with the stored beta hydroxy, butyrate, and then your mitochondria use acetyl acetate, and then the acetone is what basically is the proxy of how much acetyl acetate is being utilized. So as far as that being said, what’s great about the biosensors, and perhaps you could elucidate this a little further is, that not only do you have the ability to measure what’s under the curve by consistent readings throughout the day, but you can also see that you’re continually being able to liberate fat and burn ketones as a fuel because it’s going to show consistent rising over time. Can you explain a little bit about that?   Jim Howard: Yeah, sure. So maybe it rises, maybe it goes down depends, like, so you and I were just talking about, you know, the proline diet, and the impact of that, and things like that. So you know, that’s a higher carbohydrate fasting thing where it goes up and then comes down. But the bottom line is, first of all, breath allows you to measure throughout the day, that’s the bottom line. So you get the full picture, you get a video instead of a snapshot. And by doing that, the problem with breath biomarkers, they’re very difficult to measure. So what we did is we patented the ability to only measure the last two CCs. So you, as you know that you blow into sense, and 98% of your breath goes out the side. So that’s our patent. That’s why it’s the only medical grade option on the market, you can, you can get a version of BIOSes on Amazon for $30, probably, but it does, it’s going to measure ambient air in your breath, it’s not going to measure your end of lung sample. That end of the lung sample, by the way, is the only part that that interacts with your lung tissue. So that’s what you want, you wanna grab the good stuff, you know, kinda like the coffee that’s sitting there for a week. It looks like water in the very bottom is just coffee. We want that coffee, right? That thick tar and that’s, that’s what replaces a blood measurement. So the key thing is, is when we exercise and when we eat certain foods our ketone bodies will react. So if you’re eating, you know, if you’re in a state of ketosis, and you eat something that you thought was really healthy, you know, like, hey, these vegetables which are carbohydrate, but as vegetables, some are really high carb and they’re gonna kick you out of this fat oxidative state, and that’s fine. If you got knees like mine. You can feel that pretty quickly. If you got it. Um, you know, otherwise it could be weight, you know, weight gain and things like that. So you just you got to learn about this. It just takes time to figure out. And so what you’re really doing is not that I’m a biohacker. But really what you’re doing is some kind of low-level biohacking of saying, hey, these foods are different to Joel, than they are to the gym. This exercise is different for me remember, remember the 10,000 steps, everybody gets 10,000 steps? Who knows? If you need 10,000? Maybe you need 20. I mean, I need 30. So the more than medicine and tools and services start to align to this moving body of ours, this precision body that’s just me, and the impact of just me, and my nutritional and genomic makeup, all that the closer we are to really understanding what the hell’s going on. And that’s what instance we don’t know what the hell’s going on. That is why the tufts study that just came out last month, Tufts University saying that, that 7% of the US population is metabolically healthy 7%. Hopefully, you and I are in that, by the way. Hopefully, I think we are. And that’s too bad. I mean, look, you and I have spent a lot of time on this space, you know, a lot of time working on ourselves. But you know, that’s, that’s a pretty big number of people that are really unhealthy right now. And they just don’t know. I mean, we’re here to help them know, though.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And so leading into the studies, because I know that’s one of the things that Biosense does is do the research and have information on different applications on that. So I’d be interested to know, what is well first maybe explain what aces are, what it measures you kind of talked about it, and how aces are being used in studies to gather information about proper protocol development.   Jim Howard: Yeah, so we have a wide breadth biomarker research company at the core, right, so we have a device that then shows the measurement in a proprietary way to the medical community needs and assumed a consumer group does too. But you blow into the device, you know, three or four times a day, and it’s gonna build your curve of the trendline, your trendline, essentially, and it’s a zero to 40 measurement, and it’s roughly for the average person, it’s about 10, to one to a beta-hydroxybutyrate. Measurement. Hopefully, that’s a venous measurement, if you want to be accurate, otherwise, just you know, your capillary draw. So it’s about 10. To one, it’s not 10 to one for everybody, because they’re different ketone bodies. So let me give an example. And it’s kind of getting back to your last question is, you know, when you, when you exercise, your body will pull out beta hydroxy, butyrate, from your, from your circulation, right, so your BH B will go down, when you’re exercising your acetone, your metabolism of fat, fat, as fuel actually is going up. So you’re you don’t want to pay attention to BHB you’re gonna pay attention to acetone, acetyl acetate, so they’re a little bit different. And then they’ll come back together, you know, after a while, but when it goes up, one goes down. And that’s so they’re a little bit different. But so that’s kind of how this would be used, you know, essentially, is that it’s different for everybody. But that’s, that’s the ACE measurement in the clinical trials that were involved with. What they really want to know is, since we enable this, this curve is a trend to see, hey, this is what happens all day. Wait a minute, we know that those ketone bodies are tumor toxic, right, we know that apoptosis can really impact a cancerous cell. But and ketones are nutrition to other cells. So what is going on here? So things like that. So we just completed a really positive study on pancreatic cancer, these patients are dying of tumor reduction. I can’t get into the details. This hasn’t been published yet. We have studies on the impact of fasting, and this is in Europe, fasting to female infertility, we’ll do a male fertility one after this. Really put we have rural health studies in populations that don’t have access, which is really critical right now. But all of these kinds of the 10 studies that we have to farmers’ studies also have one thing in common they want the dose of ketosis, the depth, and length of this incredible therapy. So then you can correlate it with an improvement of a chronic condition. So you know, you and I were both at the metabolic health summit. We heard John Rowe John Rowe is talking about epilepsy. He’s like hey, everybody out here all you researchers using fat metabolism. You’ve we’ve been doing this wrong we can’t just say go do a diet and in great you’re burning fat as a fuel. So what that’s just like say Hey, everybody goes take a specific drug and take as much as you want. And he was like, we need to understand the depth and length of this, we need to have precise measurements of where the heck our bodies are in this miraculous fat oxidation thing. So we play a role in that we don’t do it all. But we help with that. And these trials are really interesting.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m interested to see them come out, Jim, because it’s hard, you know, with, let’s say, seven to 8% of the population being metabolically healthy. The term that people throw out a lot is mitochondria, mitochondria. And there’s really no way to measure mitochondrial function. And I think being able to measure ketones, especially acetone over the course of a day and creating the total load, and the total length can be a really good proxy for how well is that mitochondria, efficiently burning fuel, and not creating a lot of exhaust in the process, when it’s not using oxygen and using glucose as a fuel, thereby your ketones would be nonexistent or are low. So this is a kind of inference of things that are happening metabolically in your body for optimal health. And I know, with aces and the different times in ketosis, that the the the Biosense does with the app, and we can talk about gamification, as you get higher, I guess, between the 15 and 40 Aces, you guys mentioned, or you mentioned, a toughie, G. And would you say that that’s ultimately a marker of if you’re able to get into say, 30 to 3540, Aces consistently, whether it’s through diet modification, activity, stress reduction, inflammation, control, whatever it is that you’re doing, that that is really a good measure, proxy for, for your in autophagy.   Jim Howard: Yeah, well, you know, based on published studies, there was a great one out of Johns Hopkins, I think, two or three years ago, on and this was in mice, but you know, they started to paint the picture of, on average, where would you start to see a toffee G. Now, your coffee is always happening all over your body, but what’s the number that you can associate that with that, where they could say that within a study, so it’s an inferred number, it’s about 1517 kind of different for everybody. So if you’re targeting with our device, 20 and that, you know, it takes a few days to get into that, you know, like, it’s hard for me because my cortisol levels but it’s, it’s, you know, you get more efficient over time, you can tell you that you know, the more efficient gets. So you get you, you have the cellular cleanup that you might do on occasion like maybe it’s a monthly fast for two days or whatever. Get into it, it’s really important that we get into that model of cellular clean up a tapa G is the Nobel Prize in science and what 2016 17 and but you mentioned mitochondria, mitochondrial biogenesis, and that’s specific to the mitochondria. You know, we don’t know where exactly where that is. So if you shoot for those higher numbers, you’re certainly going to get a lot of the benefits to increase insulin sensitivity, obviously, the inflammation comes in a little bit higher, there’s an inflammasome, that is triggered at higher levels of ketosis, probably like the 10 to 20 range, called RP, our p3, I forget what it is. But it’s an inflammasome. That’s really important for orthopedic surgeries to were not only losing weight, for example, but you’re triggering not only the lack of assembly or inhibiting the assembly of that particular inflammasome. But you’re also regulating and having modulation of that is suppressing that. So it’s pretty important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So I’d be curious to know maybe some of the best practices that you’re seeing with your I guess, with the people that use your tool or some of the clinicians that help with designing protocols and dietary approaches, because what I find to be problematic is its kind of hard for people to behave these major habit changes, and they’re done slowly over time, to where they start off with restricting their carbs or getting more movement or getting more protein, whatever it may be. But once I guess what I’m trying to ask is, that it’s important to know that you can’t go into ketosis all the time. I mean, it’s important that we have mTOR growth factors to rebuild and maintain lean mass and, and growth and repair and at the same time, we want to do the Yang To the autophagy, to be able to get those aces levels higher. So as far as best practices with flexing into and out of ketosis using the Biosense, what have you seen with some of the, I guess, clinical feedback that you’re getting?   Jim Howard: Yeah, it’s different for everybody. Because again, we’re the tool, we’re not we don’t develop the protocols. So we started with everything. But I would say, you know, like the Bredesen protocol, for example, which is high impact for maybe an early onset for Alzheimer’s, for those with Alzheimer’s, too, you know, they target, you know, a seven, once it’s like, at least once a day, get up to a seven, which is kind of low levels of, you know, you’ve just entered ketosis. But again, that’s for at least once a day. So you can be cycling in every day at this kind of lower level, that that works really well. You know, you’re 50 years old, and you find out that you’re genetically inclined, you gotta really watch what you eat. I mean, all of us should be watching, right? But then you’ve got, you know, we’ve got epilepsy protocols that are pretty high. And they have to stay in that all the time. Because right, when you start to come down, it’s really problematic. We have mental health protocols that we work with, you know, where, for example, in schizophrenia, that’s really high impact. You’ve heard Chris Palmer and others talk about that, really, really high impact and mental health, we’re just learning about all this right now. Those are, you know, if you come off your medications, that’s really dangerous. Because you’re, you’ve been in this cathodic state, that’s more of a permanent thing. So a lot of these are permanent, some of these chronic diseases. You know, I certainly know what’s best for me. And what I recommend to my friends, personally, is that you’re kind of cycling in and out. And I cycled in and out on weekends, you know, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you got to still live, right, you still gotta have the, I think the creature comforts from time to time. But I think ultimately if you’re listening to this, and you’re thinking, Okay, I kind of understand what they’re saying at a certain level. Think of it as if you’re I that’s what I tell people the gym is, if your body isn’t able to use energy, by our being able to produce energy through oxygen utilization, which is going to be burning aerobic ly and burning healthy fat for fuel, it’s going to be burning oxygen, it’s not going to be using oxygen at all. And it’s going to be going through glycolysis. And that’s going to really drive up a lot of oxidative processes. And in order to slow that prop that process down, or at least produce more energy more efficiently, you want to really be able to use oxygen for you. And that’s where using ketones as a measure of how well you’re doing comes into play. So as far as the Biosense, because I to be honest with you, I’ve just recently become a lot more conscientious about it. And I am doing a lot more measuring. And I’m looking at the app more and I liked the idea that it gives me some prompts to be moving more. So you do have the I guess it’s the what do you call it on the actual app? I’m sorry, I just had a brain fart here. But I guess you call it the what is it the door? Yeah, you’re cute. Can you tell us a little bit about that in terms of how we measured with movement as well?   Jim Howard: Yeah, ketones score really is an area to the curve. So what that means it’s just kind of a number associated with the length and depth of, of wear of your ketone body production, you know, through measured through Biosense. So again, if you’re seeking, it makes it really easy, like, hey, when you get our app, and you’re like, Hey, I’m focusing on inflammation. This is me, like, I wasn’t trying to lose weight, I’m focusing on inflammation. And you know, through some questions and things like that, it’ll guide you to well, this is probably the score you want, which is actually being on average at this level of aces. But you’re never going to be on average, we eat food, we do different things. And you come in and out of that. So what it’s doing is kind of building this total dose, this therapeutic dose of fat burning. And for weight loss, it’s excellent, you don’t need weight loss. The good thing about that one is it’s kind of the most common one, but it’s also the lowest level that you need to get to and the easiest you want to get to. And if but if you’re going to lose a lot of weight, just get into higher levels, ketosis so, you know, but that’s what you do. And the app guides you through all of that. And it’s that’s the kind of the gamification of look, this is novel. We’re learning about this right now. Make it understandable for me is average Joe that’s trying to lose 30, you know, at age 50, or, you know, postmenopausal female that’s got all kinds of hormonal things that I’ve met physicians recommending this and for various reasons, I just need some guidance on how this works. So There’s a little bit of that, you know, brings you there. But it’s, it’s ultimately, you know, we don’t get anybody better. We don’t, you know, we do, we’re just a supportive mechanism where we help make sense of it and make it easy and bring insights that someone in their home can make the change, and get a really quick win to get a quick win. Where let me give you an example. Here’s one, this is van at pure vanity, put yourself into, you know, a state of ketosis for four days. And look what happens to your face. Okay, look at you know, the inflammation that all of us carry, look at the bags under your eyes, look at all those different things. You just do it for the vanity liquid happens to you know how sugar damages your skin through this glycation process, then all of a sudden, your, you know, your collagen and elastin are no longer suppressed there, they actually can get stiff and, and you know, the more flexible and things like that. So I think that that’s the key thing that you really want to start to look at. And that doesn’t drive it, then it’s all this stuff on the inside. Right, you’ll find a when I guarantee you’ll find that when it is for four or five days, you’ll find a win.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I like the idea that you coined a sort of behavior modification tool because when you have real-time feedback on the choices that you’re making, and how it’s impacting your physiology, let alone how you feel or look, and you’re seeing things getting worse or getting better, you’re going to do less or more of whatever it is that’s going in that direction. And I think the problem has been with a lot of the people that I’ve seen, Jim is, well, they tell me that my blood tests are normal. And I certainly don’t feel normal. And, you know, I use the analogy, I think it has to have about six 70% Bone Mineral changes for an x-ray to be sensitive enough to pick up the diminished bone density on there. But meanwhile, you can have the processes happening along the way, even though it’s not picking it up. Whereas a device like this kind of redefines or creates a paradigm shift in the way healthcare is practiced, from the point of view, okay, we don’t care if your blood tests are normal, we want to see if you have the ability to be what they are the coin metabolically flexible, where you’re able to drive down your inflammation, you’re able to use oxygen to combust healthy fat, and that’s allowing you to be more effective and efficient and energy producing. And you can see that that happening. So I kudos to your company to be able to design that. And I like that you actually work on clinical trials to see, hey, we’re learning this as a, as a manufacturer, as a company of what the impact of our tool can be. I guess that leads us to what trends or what clinical trials you’re working on, or what do you see coming through the pike in terms of now that we’ve made that first step of creating this device? I see all of this potential or that potential, what do you see?   Jim Howard:  Yeah, it’s really interesting because there’s so you know, you’ve got to let people are just starting to really when I say people and consumers, we play in the consumer and the research and clinical space, but on the consumer side, we’re, we’re just seeing access that we’ve never had COVID caused a lot of this to you know, could cause that, hey, now you’re in the home, you got to kind of take care of yourself and they’ll say like, oh, wait a minute, I shouldn’t eat anything I want. Wow, I’m learning about this on my own because my physician doesn’t know. So I think that we’re it’s a different person, the lines are a little bit more gray between clinical you know, somebody can go to you and learn a ton. You know, I don’t know if the average primary care doctor is going to know that much about metabolism anymore, you know unless they’ve just come out of school the last couple of years. So it’s got to be careful there. But my guess where I was going with that is we’ve got an opportunity now people using CGM consumers going out and buying CGM. Now they’re learning that hey, this is what happens to my blood sugar I gotta get that blood sugar down so they don’t have so much insulin, you know, going up and down. And by doing that, now I’m in the first step by the way, but that’s that doesn’t do that’s not where the fat oxidation happens in a toughie G and inflammation reduction all that’s in ketosis. That’s what we measure. We’re the undoing the bad. Glucose is stopping the bad. Now we do the work where were the worker bees. So I think what we’re starting to see is that consumers are starting to put this together and we sure as heck haven’t done it. You know, we don’t know everything but we will We have learned a lot that, that consumers can do this, we have to package it in a better way. So it makes sense for all. All health levels of intelligence, okay, that it’s that there are health equities are written all over this that we can, it’s going to make sense for everybody because here are the worst names right now when it comes to diabetes when it comes to obesity, you know, we know go out and rural area, okay, go to an urban area, urban underserved and rural, underserved, okay, and they might be different color people. Okay, they might look different. But it’s the same problem with diabetes and obesity. And we’ve got to figure that out that it makes sense. And it’s available to everybody. And it’s just a really important part that I know that we as a company are very focused on is, is getting that reach to everybody. And it’s got to be packaged in a way that makes sense for everybody so that’s a big part of the trend that we see in health systems is health equity. And it’s the right thing to do. So our job is to make it super presentable, you know, have the gamification that makes sense to get a little win. If I need a little when I can get a bigger win. If I blow one, one on this on this device, it’s so easy to use, I’m going to get to two by just getting rid of the bread on my sandwich and having you know, and having an open face something or whatever, but and then if I need to, I know I can get into a fat oxidative state at five. By the end of the week, you now listen, whoa, I’ve got I’m actually losing, I’m using my own physiology, as my fuel. Isn’t that kind of cool? Taking it from an actual fat, so that might be on my liver, which is really bad, right? Or adipose or you know, adipose tissue that’s actually on your visceral fat, for example, that’s really bad, too. All of a sudden, it’s been shifted into my actual fuel. That’s what fat burning really is. If you can use your own fuel, you’re set to go. You know you got the fuel all over. Let’s just use it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting, because I’ve had the opportunity to interview Dorian from keto Mojo. Yeah. And I see a lot of parallels in the sense that okay, you didn’t kind of realize what, what you started, I guess, right? I mean, initially, it’s a device that can help track and get some good feedback. But at the same time, now you’re looking at helping, you know, a bigger purpose of people that need support, and food bills get changed, and healthcare policy gets changed. I mean, it’s amazing that the fallout and I think the other thing that you mentioned, too, was now that we’re empowering the consumer, to be able to take control of their health and not necessarily be reliant or dependent on a provider to give them the answers, and they can do it themselves. And the other thing that I find kind of ironic, too, is, is that it’s not rocket science, the things that are actually implemented that make the changes like, Oh, so you’re saying if I actually move a little more, and I don’t eat as much, you know, crappy food that my numbers are gonna improve? Yeah, but you’re gonna actually see it in real-time versus seeing that your blood tests are kind of normal, and they’re, you’re not sick enough, or you just need to be put on this medication to address that. So I think there are a lot of amazing consequences that you may not have anticipated starting with this. You’ve seen that to be true.   Jim Howard: Yeah, it’s, we learned so much. Yeah, we, I mean, look, we’ve got a platform and we’ll add more to the platform. And he’s like, you know, really interested in nutrition AI in this too. But look, who do we learn from, we don’t learn from being in the lab and building all this stuff. We learn from the users, we learn from the clinics that are or the academic researchers that are building things in order for people like you that have had patients, you know, it’s we’re all in this together, we got to figure it out, you know, 93% of us need help. Right? 93 A lot of people.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And it’s interesting, too, because I’ve talked to Dave from heads up health. And it’s really great when you can bring in so many different metrics from looking at heart rate variability, looking ketones, and looking at steps and movement. The only problem was when I found Jim is with the clients that I work with because they were such an early adopter, you’re making them do so much data entry, and they’re already stressed, to begin with, you want to kind of make it as passive as possible so that all they got to do is breathe into a machine or all they got to do is upload something and then a clinician tells them, hey, keep doing this, but you know, stop that versus having them to do it on their own. And I think that’s where we’re headed. So one of the questions I have is just on your own health journey because you know, want to get down to the fixing the stress response, and I Understand and as we get, I guess, more, I guess, sophisticated over our own health journey, what would you have told the old gym that was not aware of some of the stuff that the new gym knows, in terms of maybe accelerating your health or being more energized? Or just feeling better? What are some of the tricks of the trade that you’ve learned during your time of getting in this industry?   Jim Howard: Yeah, that’s a great question. I think that you know, holistically, I didn’t realize how connected everything was. And this is I think, I’m a pretty good personal example, to be honest with you, you know, I, I followed this to the tee, that pyramid that kind of bullshit pyramid we were given, it’s caused a lot of the problems. I follow that to a tee I was on, and I wouldn’t say low fat, I was on a no fat diet probably since from 1995 to 2016 17, and had fully transitioned to where I am right now in 2018. And by doing that, I was pretty much destroying myself. I mean, I was eating, it wasn’t eaten sugar or anything like that. But I mean, the amount of rice and pasta and bread and blah, blah, blah, like all that, I mean, no processed food, there’s just all the stuff that was so high carbohydrate, but natural. And I’m guessing it probably put down about 350 carbs a day 400 Maybe. And my fat intake was nothing. And I was not healthy. I just wasn’t really healthy. But I thought I was healthy because I was doing everything that I should have done to the tee to the teat, man, gotta love that yogurt. 20 grams of sugar in that yogurt, right? So I think that the unfortunate thing about that was I, I learned late in life, but I mean, the pain point was I couldn’t carry my children up the stairs. I’m an older dad, I had kids at 46 and 48, and I could not physically carry them upstairs. So all of a sudden, when I found this through my wife this lifestyle was permanent. Now the holistic side of this is that I didn’t realize Yeah, the great inflammation, I can carry them up the stairs, I didn’t realize how much better I slept, I didn’t realize how much that my cute senses, you know, it is like social cognitive ability is so much stronger. And you’re like so aware, I didn’t get tired, you know, the pasta, who, in the middle of the day, and like constantly, then caffeinate up to overcome that. And it was I was doing everything wrong to a band-aid, everything. And when you start to put yourself together metabolically, you realize Holy Cow insulin resistance is what causes all of these, you know what 30% of cancers, nonalcoholic fatty liver disease. Okay, a lot of these mental health disorders that we’re learning right now like it’s so tied together. And when you just focus on that, get yourself to metabolic flexibility, the wheels kind of fall in place, they don’t fall apart, they fall in place. And that’s kind of cool. And it actually doesn’t even take that long. You notice that when you’re patiently best.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It is. And the thing that you mentioned, though, too, as you’re doing all the things that you were told to do. Right? It’s not like you were a row guy fighting the system and dealing with the consequences. And I think that’s why you still see 93% of the people because they’re still eating the yogurts and the processed carbs, and, and so forth. I mean, they have no clue how much carbs they’re taking in in a given day. And there’s no wonder we’re sort of in for a tidal wave of metabolic issues if we don’t reverse it, but with technology, like with what you’re doing is the first step to knocking down that that major albatross. So as far as where people you know, go to get the device, it looks like this. I haven’t shown them and for those that are going to watch the video, it’s easy to do. You know, it’s funny, actually. So I don’t I don’t vape not and but it’s so funny like when I’m out in public I think like people are like are thinking that I’m you know, vaping because I’m measuring my breath ketones. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. But um, where do people get that device?   Jim Howard: Yeah, so you can it’s at my biosense.com and we’ll set up a code for your users as well are your new patients and friends that listen to the podcast and it’s just Dr. Joel, Dr. J. o el and they’ll give you $20 off the device is $299. The sensors should last a couple of years if it’s stored appropriately and or more, and it’s unlimited measurements. So it’s 290 $9 $20 was off with that code. And yeah, and then we shipped it from here in St. Louis. So we are the manufacturer and research company to we do it all.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, listen, it’s great too because I have both the, you know, the blood marker and the breath meter. And the great thing is you can do it very easily. You don’t have to prick your finger and you’re not paying for the strip’s over and over again to write. So that’s the great thing about it. So hey, Jim, thanks for your time. I appreciate you being here and looking forward to seeing your future success. And I appreciate everything that you do. Yeah.   Jim Howard: Thank you so much. Appreciate. Thank you. To save $20 dollars on your biosense meter, clear here and used the discount code “drjoel” at the checkout The post Testing Ketones With Breath Or Blood: Which is a Better Tool? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out men and women, the truth about their health, and the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their energy back quickly. And today, I’m joined by a special guest, Karen Martel. She’s a certified hormone specialist and transformational nutritional coach who specializes in women’s weight loss and is an expert in this field. So I’m excited to get your insights, Karen, and welcome so much to our show today.   Karen Martel: I am super happy to be here, Joel. I’ve been a big fan of yours for a long time. So I’m happy to be here and share my own story of adrenal fatigue.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, listen, I’m excited to hear your story. And that’s always a good starting point. So tell us a little bit about your background, and why specifically, Karen, you got into women’s hormones and weight loss and all of the good stuff.   Karen Martel: Mm-hmm. So my story began when I had after I had my first child, which I think a lot of women can relate to that. And you know, I’d lost the baby weight and everything was great. But I was a single mother, I was running my own business. And the stress, I think of being a single mother started to take a turn for the worst. And I suddenly started to have all these health problems. And it was overnight joy. It was like within a felt like weeks. Suddenly, I had all of these problems, which was extreme insomnia, where I could not sleep at all, I would maybe fall asleep at about four o’clock in the morning for an hour or so. And then my daughter would wake me up. I started having really bad digestive issues where I would look like I was three months pregnant. By the end of the day, every day, I was getting food sensitivities where I would get hives all over my body. I was getting menstrual migraines for sometimes that would last up to 10 days, 14 days at a time where I couldn’t get rid of them, with without any medication, nothing, it was some very, very severe, I was getting horrible PMS symptoms, and I was rapidly putting weight on. And that was, like most women, that was where my focus laid in weight gain. Like it was all that other stuff was hell and I hated it. But for me to suddenly, you know, and I was a healthy eater. And I have always been really into nutrition. I was doing bodywork, I was a Rolfer. I’m sure you know what that is because you’re a chiropractor. So I was doing body work on other people. And so I was very health conscious and conscious. And so without changing my diet, and exercising still and all of this though, I was suddenly putting on all this weight, and I was at the heaviest point that I’d ever been. And I did whatever a woman does, which was I worked out harder. I went, I joined a boot camp, I got myself a personal trainer was working out six days a week, eating, you know, barely anything calorie counting, trying every diet under the sun. And I mean, every diet, I went through them all because I just kept looking to the diet to the exercise to solve all of my problems. And it just kept getting worse. And I kept gaining more weight. And I finally decided and I’m 33 at the time, I’d go to my doctor, I said, you know, okay, what’s happening, I was putting on an antidepressant and sleeping pills. Thankfully, the sleeping pills worked for my sleep. But of course, the antidepressant didn’t do anything except, you know, kill my sex drive and probably make me fatter. So I stopped that and decided, okay, I have to figure this out. And I ended up going to a friend of mine who is a naturopath and I said, Do you think I should test my hormones? Because thinking I’m 33 is if I’m gonna have hormone issues. I just didn’t put that together. And he said like, yeah, of course, you should. So I ended up doing proper hormone testing, which we can get into, but at that time, it was saliva hormone testing. And what came back was that my estrogen was quite high in comparison to my progesterone, my progesterone was really low. And my data was super low. And my cortisol was like a flatline. It was low. So there I was doing everything wrong. For what my hormones were telling me at that time. I was working out like crazy. I was starving myself I was under high, high amounts of stress. And what’s funny, Josie never considered me a stressful person. Like if someone had said to me Oh, it’s your adrenals it’s your burnt out I would be like no I’m not I’m not a stressed-out person. Because I kind of associated that with like that high-strung person that’s just go go go and that was never me. Now looking back, I’m like, Well, yeah, here I wasn’t sleeping because I had a new baby. I had no help from her father. So it was you know, raising my child. All by myself had been breastfeeding and had, you know, then started exercising like crazy and running my own business. And, of course, I was stressed out, but to me and looking around, it’s like that’s what everybody was doing. So it seemed normal to me. And later I found out I was very hypothyroid, I wasn’t converting my T four to my T three. So there was a big piece of that in there. I had I was riddled with heavy metals, I had a parasite. So I had all of these things kind of compiled, it was like the perfect storm. And it took a long time for me to get out of it. You know, it took, you know, it’s quitting all exercise, I had to look at my life differently, start asking for how I started doing yoga. And I just started to see things very differently. And I came out of that experience going, I can’t be the only one that was you know, that’s eating healthy, that’s exercising, doing everything I’m being told to do, and yet still gaining weight. And I mean, I could have dropped my calories to 500 calories a day, and I wouldn’t have made any, I wouldn’t have lost a single pound. So that kind of projected me into becoming a nutritionist. And then from there, I decided I have to get into the hormone piece because I just kept seeing it over and over and over again in women in this day and age, especially as we go from perimenopause and menopause. There’s such little education about what happens to our bodies during this time and the impact that hormones have on your weight. If whether it’s adrenals, estrogen, or progesterone, they’re all combined and can have a massive impact on our body and our physiology. So that’s how I got to where I am today. And hence the name of my podcast is called the other side of weight loss, which isn’t about being on the other side of losing weight. It’s about what else is there to lose weight besides calories in calories out and exercise. All right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, thanks for sharing your story, Karen. So just a quick side question is How old is your daughter now? 1515. And she was your first and only are you had other children? Or another   Karen Martel: one? Yeah, I had one more, I had a son at 37.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, so she was your first child. And that was 15 years ago, you were 33 years old. And one of the things that and subsequent child, eight years after that, you’re seven years old. So one of the things that you mentioned, which I think you also corrected in your story was out of nowhere, it happened out of nowhere because I didn’t consider myself a stressed-out person. And a lot of people will say that that I work with as well as I’m not under a lot of stress, I got a good family life. But the reality is, it’s kind of like wearing a watch around your arm, you’re not aware of the band over it. But if you tightened it a little bit, you’d kind of be aware of it, but then over time, you wouldn’t be aware of it. And it’s one of those things that happen all the time here, I was gonna say like a single mom. And the stress of ralphing is physically enduring. And the fact of gestating and building a baby in the belly requires a lot of metabolic energy surplus to be able to get through that and not have any health challenges, miscarriages knock on wood, healthy baby healthy pregnancy. And so that event itself is stressful. So it’s not so much out of the blue. So I think for the listener to hear that is that even though you may not think you’re under stress, life itself is stressful. And it’s like wearing a ring, you’re just not aware of it. But when you look back, of course, I’m aware of the demands on my body. And then you mentioned about doing some lifestyle stuff, and you didn’t even get into the stuff we’re gonna get into which I think are good. AHA is for people to listen to for sure. In terms of Yeah, but let’s kind of go into, you mentioned a couple of things with you did the hormone test and at that time, it was a saliva test. And you had some good aha was with that in terms of your estrogen compared to progesterone and your cortisol flatlining and your DHEA. So let’s kind of take it from there in terms of what did that mean to you then and maybe now and how you’ve evolved with that piece of the puzzle so that you can guide your treatment protocol because I’m sure a lot of women are in that same category, Karen, where they may not have gone through the nutritional school through themselves. And they may not have had a receptive doctor that ordered that test. And they may have just ordered it themselves or thinking about ordering it themselves. And much of the same things would happen on their test results, they would see estrogen high compared to progesterone, they would see their cortisol being flatline from a free fraction point of view, and no need to get to elaborate on that. Their DHEA is probably Oh, and now they’re like, Okay, I’m not losing my weight, kind of go through the evolution of how did you construct your game plan?   Karen Martel: Yeah, that was very interesting because I got only so far with a lot of it before I had to start digging deeper. And the adrenal piece. Yeah, looking back, of course, yeah, I was very stressed out and was doing everything wrong. For what that was telling me with the exercise, and the eating and having to change all of that was mentally very hard as a female. And I think as women, we were extremely hard on ourselves when it’s when we can’t do everything. And then we have to start asking for help. I think we have a very, very hard time doing that. And that was a huge lesson learned for me, which was, I’m doing this all by myself, I am raising a child all alone with no help from the Father is stressful, and to be able to go out and then ask for help from my sister’s and family members and say, you know, could you take my kid for a couple of hours, or whatever it might be, it was, that was hard for me. And it took a long time. And, and then I also realized, I was stressed, my thoughts were stressful. And the way I was looking at things was stressful. And so that was a really big piece for me too, which was, I’m in control of my stress. And I have to change the way I see things. And I can either see it as half the glass half empty or the glass half full. And I started to finally look at everything through the lens of my glass is half full, not half empty. And when I say that, I mean that, you know, something stressful would happen, like, you know, Life is stressful, these things are going to happen. You know, so maybe there was a big financial piece where I remember I had, you know, this great big plumbing issue, and it was like $10,000. And at the time, I had no money and was like, oh my god, like super stressful. And I remember driving home and going, like having the heart palpitations and freaking out about it and going, what is that going to do? For me, I have to change the way I see this. Because sitting you’re freaking out about it and thinking, Oh, whoa, me, why is this happening to me, I have such bad luck. And I make that such crap. All this stuff happens to everybody. And it’s going to continue happening for the rest of our life, we’re always going to run into car problems, plumbing problems, house problems, where it This is life. And I just had to go, okay, you know what, I can get the money. I have, you know, I’ve got low, I can get a loan and your line of credit, whatever, I got a credit card with nothing on it, I dealt with it. And I decided I wasn’t going to stress about it. And I have worked on that for the last 15 years as I’ve just always been very aware of where my brain is going, where my thoughts are going. Are they stressful? Are they serving me? Or are they making me more stressed out? And having that control was a huge shift for me. The other thing Joelle was that eventually when I found out about my thyroid problem, and I was doing some more adrenal testing, and my DHEA my cortisol still wasn’t great. It was way better than it used to be. But it still wasn’t great. And I realized that I had, you know, this slow thyroid that I wasn’t converting my T four into my T three. And then I soon realized my reverse T-three was elevated. And that was a huge piece of my puzzle because I was like, You know what, I’m doing well with my stress in my world. And I knew that I had been working on everything, my mindset, you know, my lifestyle and just doing all the right things that you know, according to you, Joel probably was listening to your podcast and doing the things you were telling me to do at that time. And I heard somebody else on a podcast, Brian wall. Brian Walsh, I think his name is and he said there about this research paper that he had seen where you know, people had gone into the hospital with an infection. They tested the cortisol levels, they were low. Then they gave the person antibiotics. And a week later, after the infection had cleared, they went back they tested the cortisone, and the cortisol was back to normal. That was a huge aha piece for me because I thought, Okay, I’ve got this reverse T three problem, thyroid problem. I still have some hormonal stuff. Could there be something else that’s, you know, feeding into this adrenal issue that I have? And then I went farther and I started, I tested for mold first, and then I tested for heavy metals. And the heavy metals test showed that my mercury and my lead were as high on the chart as they could go. And there are no safe levels of lead in the body. So that was like, oh, maybe this is why my adrenal system just can’t quite get it. And I can’t prove this. I don’t know. I’m still chelation is a very long process. And and so I’ve been working on it for the last couple of years and haven’t retested yet. So we’ll see, you know, if I can clear out some of these heavy metals, will my thyroid start working properly, and then Hence, my adrenal system start working properly, too? So those are my puzzle pieces. Each of us is very different. And we’re all going to have these different puzzle pieces that we have to put together to take a good look at what’s going on hormonally for us because there’s almost always going to be something driving hormonal dysfunction.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, let’s unpack what you got there. Because you said a lot. So I was gonna say whoever taught you about that first controlling stress with the way that you think about it is number one because ultimately, it is what it is, and stressing over it even more than what the reality is isn’t helping things. But at the same time, I could appreciate someone that’s listening to this that says, Well, I’m already doing that. And I’m, which if they’re saying that in a, in a confrontational way, maybe they are not doing good, right? But a lot of people will say that, like, oh, like, just give me the good information, I am already doing that. And if that’s you, and you’re watching this, then really revisit that you can’t just pay it lip service, you got to intentionally feel it, and know that, okay, you’re in that uncomfortable, angst of whatever that situation is, and almost have a breathable, controllable in deflating of it so that it doesn’t create that same stress response that causes all the physiological things that we’re going to talk about to even get worse and just say, well tell me the physiological stuff, and not work on that. Because if you don’t work on that, the physiological stuff isn’t going to work. So I would, I would say for sure on that. But with that being said, and then making matters more confounded or difficult is mold or heavy metals, or microbial concerns, and the study that you found out where if they give them antibiotics, there’s got to be a GI component. That’s where I think a lot of people care and run into problems, right? Because they get so fixated on no one’s helping me, I gotta be my advocate. I don’t have a lot of energy to expend, but I’m going to do it anyways. Because I want the answers. And it’s kind of interesting, I want to learn about this stuff. And then they’re just information gatherers. Yeah. And they become like, Okay, well, I have this estrogen thing. I have this cortisol thing, I’m controlling my stress, I just had a baby. I’m asking for help, and people are helping me. But then I’m doing heavy metal testing, and all these other things, I guess, let’s go back to where you’re the specialists. Now in terms of estrogen dominance, the thing that you saw on the test, and what that means for women that may not be in their Peri menopausal years, yet they’re in their fertility years, and they may want to just have a healthy fertility cycle till they get to perimenopause. Or they might be saying, you know, what I least want to be able to keep my options open now with women and their careers and, and just their situations waiting a little bit longer. So let’s maybe delineate that in terms of estrogen and fertility and going into healthy perimenopause and menopause, maybe just sort of unpack all of that with what you’ve learned so far.   Karen Martel: Yeah, estrogen dominance is a very interesting topic that I think most women don’t understand. It is one of the most, you know, it is the number one most visited page on my website, which is a blog post about estrogen dominance. And every time I work with a woman, almost like 98% of them will tell me, I think I have estrogen dominance, you know, if they’re in their fertile years, I think I have estrogen dominance. And they’ll probably even be likely taking D and dole methane, which is a known supplement that helps to get rid of excess estrogen. So everyone thinks she’s got it because of the symptoms, the symptoms, it’s like, Oh, bad PMS, theories, hips in the stomach. And everyone was going to say, Yeah, that’s me. But what’s interesting is I have done well over 1000 If not, 1000s of hormone testing now, in my career, and very few fertile women have too much estrogen in their body where they’re producing an excess of it. In most cases in fertile women, especially in your 30s, from 35 to about 40, we typically see estrogen dominance but not too much estrogen just in comparison to progesterone. Because as we age ladies, if you’re not ovulating, which is what happens when we age we get, you know, less than less ovulation, when you’re not ovulating, you’re not producing progesterone from your corpus luteum, which is where we produce our progesterone, we can produce it over the adrenal glands as well, and even out of the spinal cord, which is very odd. But there’s, you know, we but just small amounts, so we start to see the progesterone dropping quite quickly in our first in our fertile years and our later 30s. Even in younger women, we’re still seeing this, you know, kind of a depleted progesterone a little bit, but very rarely too much estrogen, what we’re seeing is a lot of Xeno estrogens, which you can’t test that you can test for like BPA in the blood in the sorry, in the urine. But in most cases, you can’t test, there’s no test, there’s no blood test to go see how much is you know, estrogen stew you have. And so on a test, you’re gonna see that your estrogen levels are probably pretty normal. And yet all these women are Downey’s supplements that drain their estrogen. And ladies, I will tell you, estrogen is not a bad guy, it is good. It’s your number one, she’s the queen of all your hormones, and you need it. Because as you age and you start to lose your estrogen, you are going to start to see a lot of complications happening to your health when you start losing estrogen it is it has so much impact on us. So be very careful with what you’re doing in that sense. And know that it’s typically if you’re having those symptoms, it’s typically Xeno estrogen dominance that you’re going to be dealing with now dim can help you still excrete some of that stuff. But really, you want to be focusing on detoxification, cleaning up your environment from those Xeno estrogens. And making sure your blood sugar’s stable, your adrenal system is stable, all the eating the right diet, that is what you want to do for your hormones in your fertile years. You don’t want to be taking copious amounts of a damn to drain that estrogen, nor do you want copious amounts of progesterone, when you’re in those fertile years, there’s a lot that you can do that is just focused on food, taking the right minerals, making sure that your stress is under control, and that you’re eating the right diet for what your hormones are telling you at that time. I think that that’s also very important to be clear about is there is no one perfect diet. You know, there are some women that you know, if you’ve got blood sugar, just regularities ketogenic diets going to be great or a carnivore diet might be great. There are some women, though, that have, you know, bad, you know, really low cortisol, low DHEA. You know, I’m sure jewel talks about this a lot. So but you know, low thyroid, then you got to be careful, you can’t be you know, fasting every day, or eating one meal a day or going carnivore, because that’s gonna drive that farther into the ground. So you have to be very careful, and with what diet you’re doing in comparison to what your hormones are doing. And then as we age and we start to get into our 40s, things start to shift, now you’re gonna get quite an estrogen dominant. But once again, only in that sense, not only, but typically in the sense of progesterone is going to drop farther, because you’re going to not be ovulating in your 40s. So that progesterone will drop by about 75% in her 40s, estrogen-only starts to go down, you know, by about 25%. And then it kind of starts to go on this wild ride where it’s going up sometimes and then it’s going to crash back down, that’s going to come up. So there’ll be some months where you’re gonna bleed super heavy, and another month where you’re gonna be hot flashes and night sweats and having a late period. And so it starts to you know, do this up and down thing as you’re going into perimenopause. And then it drops completely off the grid, typically, and then your yet women still think they’re estrogen dominant because of the symptoms they’re experiencing. But remember, ladies, it is typically that that progesterone is just too low. Estrogen is a growth hormone, which means it helps to make things grow. And so that’s your uterus. the lining is going to help to make that uterine lining and then progesterone comes around, and it helps to counteract that growth. Even in breast tissue, it’s going to estrogen doesn’t cause breast cancer, it’s a growth hormone. If you have cancer cells in your breast, that estrogen can go there and make it grow. Progesterone can counteract the growth in the breast tissue as well. And we can go quite deep into this because there’s so much research that shows about, you know, hormone replacement, and estrogen and breast cancer. And I think there’s a lot of fear around that. And women just they’ve demonized estrogen. And as you age, ladies, and you start to lose that estrogen, everything starts to fall apart in your body, we have over 100 different functions for estrogen in our body, and we need it. And this is where there’s so much controversy of whether you should replace it or not replace it, is it gonna cause breast cancer? Is it not? And we can get into whatever way you want to go here, Joel?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, there’s a lot that you said there. And I think that just to summarize it is that it’s the relationship to the hormones in general and not just an absolute number compared to another number and meaning I think a lot of the estrogen dominant definition came out of a lab test versus the doctor school meaning when they did saliva tested, they said, Okay, let’s create a ratio between estrogen and E one and E two, and E three and progesterone and come up with a number. And it’s not validated in research and science. But I get your point. And it’s a very good point in terms of ladies, it’s not so much that you have estrogen dominance. And there are instances where that is the case. We’ve seen it and I’ve seen it, but the reality is, what does it look like in relationship to progesterone? And what makes it even more complicated as well, which I’m sure you see is there is phase one and phase two of estrogen metabolites. And so basically, how well do we make the fat-soluble water soluble? And then how well do we get the water-soluble out of the body? And those, you’ll see instances where confounding the information, meaning, you have too little progesterone in relationship to estrogen because of stress and cortisol demands and progesterone having to fill up those buckets instead of, you know, being there for reproductive function and, and ovulation and, and all of the above. But what also I find, and maybe you can add to this is, if someone’s phase two metabolites are, are very, very fast, which a lot of the times that happens, which means when we look at a hormone test, we see that your phase one is upregulated, in a sense, and what will happen is that Phase two will be very slow. And the example I use is that’s kind of like phase one is having a party at your house, and then you bring the garbage to the curb, or you bring it to the side of the house or you bring it to the back of the house. That’s if we don’t metabolize those estrogen metabolites in a good way. So if we’re we’re doing it effectively, we’re going down a healthy pathway, which can be great if the garbage men remove it from the curb effectively. But if they don’t, then what you have is these partially metabolized estrogen metabolites that can be more disruptive than the actual estrogen that you have. And now it’s going haywire. It’s like you have estrogen that’s partially metabolized, that’s binding to receptor sites, that’s not allowing good estrogen to get in there. And so now you’re paradoxically low on estrogen even though it’s high compared to progesterone, but it’s really low inside the cell and you think you’re estrogen dominant? So yeah, that’s sort of a complicated issue for people.   Karen Martel: So it is, but it’s just the point of, there are three phases that estrogen has to go through, and you just, everybody’s going straight to dim. But what’s going to be in that phase one? And so what if you’re not methylating? What if you’re not pooping regularly, all of these channels have to be working. So you could be estrogen dominant per se, but only in phase two, or you could not be pooping it out. So there’s your phase three, you know, so just taking a sample man isn’t always the answer. Like you have to look at that big picture and go okay, which phase one, two, or three? Is my estrogen getting backed up? Is it all three? It can be I’ve seen it I’ve seen it where the person’s got the horrible digestive system, they’re not methylated and they’re not good. He through phase one very well and their estrogen is super high. And then you want to you have to start looking at phase one and two supplementations and fixing that God. So there is way more to it than what is being told out there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point. And just as an aside, I don’t know like this is something that’s helped me as well, because on the test that we see how phase two is doing, and we look at those ratios, and that’s a methylation enzyme CLM T. And a lot of women know I’m a CLM TM slow. So my phase two is slow. Complicating the matter is there are theories that CLM T might be upregulated. And it’s clearing that phase to metabolize even quicker so but anyways, what I would say to you, and also what I’ve learned is, it’s not only methylation, and that’s just an aside not to steal any of your thunder, one of the things that I’ve learned is, were their things that deplete methyl groups and to our conversation that we had on your podcast we talked about oxidative stress and your oxygen consumption rate and physical injuries and traumas and chemical exposures and estrogen disruptors and plastics and all of this glyphosate and all of that is going to increase your body’s demand to make energy. And one of the main nutrients that we need to power our energy production power plants are B vitamins, and B vitamins are methyl donors. So women might just focus on methyl folate, I have MTHFR, I’m taking Sammy, and I’m doing all of this choline and the B, you know, these different things to support phase two, and I’m not getting any better I feel ramped up when I take B vitamins. That’s because you’re not addressing the things that are draining your B vitamins. And when you take those B vitamins, it’s not going to estrogen. priority of clearing that up, it’s going to all the other things that it’s so far behind on. Does that make sense?   Karen Martel: Yeah, I love stuff like that. And I’m just as when we talked on my podcast, this is an area that I’m diving into now, which is the whole minerals and the B vitamins and where we’re getting our vitamin C and bees from and make the importance of magnesium and not putting in too much Iran because it’s causing more oxidative stress and then looking at the genetic piece to like it’s a lot of moving parts.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Really. Yeah, yeah. But I’ll tell you and I agree with you is just taking the dam or that diagonal methane. A lot of women number one, did you do it on your own? Did your doctor tell you did you do a test to see if your actual phase one is already slow? Or your estrogen at the parties that you’re having at your house? There’s no garbage to bring to the curb in the first place. So you don’t need to clear it out any faster. I mean, are you doing those types of things, I had a woman that was in her 70s. And she was taking them and I didn’t even have to ask her because her phase one was like 99% down that pathway. And our Phase Two was very, very slow. And basically, I use the example of dem is like yes, it will help clear out your effect of estrogen or your estrogen that might be going down on unhealthy pathways, the estrogen you’re bringing to the curb or to the backyard that may create more problems. It will bring it to the curb a lot more effectively. But you didn’t have a lot of parties and estrogen to bring there and you’re already draining out what you don’t have very much of in the first place. I’m sure you’re seeing that a lot, right?   Karen Martel: Oh, I see it all the time and menopausal and perimenopause puzzle, women don’t have hardly any estrogen if at any. And they’re taken down because the doctor Functional Medicine Practitioner told them they should be taking it because it’s just this like fix all for things in the functional world. And you have to be careful even though it’s showing now that anything above 100 Or sorry, 200 milligrams of dem will block androgen receptors. So then now you’re not only going to be draining the estrogen that you already don’t have. And now you’re going to be blocking your androgen receptors, you’re not going to be getting the testosterone that you so badly need. And this goes for men too because dim is a very popular Supplement for Men. So it can help them get rid of their estrogen so they don’t get the man’s moves, but you take too much. And now you’re going to be affecting your testosterone. So just it’s just safe to say, ladies, it’s you’ve got to be careful. And don’t just go willy-nilly and take any supplement until you see that full picture of what your breakdown of estrogens doing. And remember that estrogen is not the bad guy you want estrogen. It is a fat loss hormone. Which women don’t know that they all think it’s a fat gain hormone and yes too much of it and then not detoxing, will make you gain weight. But without estrogen, you start running into a lot of metabolic issues, which as you can develop insulin resistance because estrogen is needed for glucose transport. We need it for leptin sensitivity, we’ve got so many estrogen receptors in our brain and it really can affect leptin, so women can become insulin resistant to leptin resistance, and their cholesterol can go up, all from losing their estrogen. And even in your brain, because we have so many receptors and there’s a lot of evidence now coming out that shows that women that replace their estrogen for six years or longer with transdermal bioidentical estrogen have a 70% reduction in developing Alzheimer’s and dementia. That’s huge. And that was a massive study that just came out of Arizona last year, showing this and so we can see that like for something that is not curable, Alzheimer’s really scary disease I got the genes for it, I got both, I got two copies of the APB for gene, I’m going to replace my estrogen until the day I die because I know how important it is for brain function. And so by osteoporosis, you will get develop osteoporosis, if you don’t replace your estrogen, you’ll heart disease. Estrogen is extremely heart protective when you take it transdermally not when you take it orally because then it will increase your risk of heart attack and stroke if you take it orally. So estrogen has got this bad route, we have to be very careful. And we have to pick and choose our battles when it comes to perimenopause and menopause. And know that you can’t supplement your way out of the loss of ovarian function and the loss of these hormones. And that is where bioidentical hormones can come in, and they can be used to replace these very vital missing hormones for our health. And the same goes for men as well. You guys start to lose your testosterone, not all men, but a lot of men will start to lose their testosterone as they age. And there are things that you can take to help prevent that, that’s going to be great. And you always want to make sure you got a healthy diet going on and taking all you know, watching your stress levels. Because I think number one to get through menopause and even testosterone deficiency in men. Number one is you have to watch your stress levels before anything else. Because if you don’t, you will be hit so much harder with those symptoms than if you weren’t watching those.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So for the man to get through menopause or andropause, right? But I would say like one of the examples is that, ultimately, yes, and we’ll talk about the need to replace your estrogen and what exactly you meant by that in a moment. But as far as for men, like I know that what they’ll do is they’ll take the DEM because, or estrogen blockers because they’re taking massive amounts of androgens, and they don’t want that to add aromatize and convert into estrogen. And, you know, the analogy I use on that the analogy is this, I used to have buddies that would come up with amazingly clever ways to cheat for a test, you know, like, put the notes on the bottom of your shoe and, you know, do all these things that they were doing to beat the system. And when you’re working that hard to beat the system, that same work can be channeled constructively to work with the system, so that you don’t have to come up with these things to beat the system because the system is there to work with you. And I think the same thing with hormone optimization in terms, of Karen in terms of doing the fundamental things. I mean, obviously, everything you talked about in terms of how you process stress, what what what power do you give on it? You know, that perceived stress can make it a lot worse than what it is. Are you asking for help and embracing a community support-like system? Are you getting good healthy nutrients, which we’ll talk about here now in supplementation? And when you do that, then the things, the deficiencies, the inflammatory responses, the stress levels, all of those things lower the enzyme breakdown that causes the extra aromatization in the first place. So it’s just like, to me it’s like well, it’s the lazy man works twice as hard right? And if you just would have done the work initially you would have fixed it but the question I have for you because the other thing that happens is estrogen foods soy and other things that can be phytoestrogens that can be actually very healthy and Emile they also get a bum rap because of estrogen dominance and Xeno estrogens. I guess this is more of a colleague to call Question. But are you finding that when you make recommendations for people that women that have very low estrogens, that you’re not necessarily wanting to go on transdermal replacements? Are you seeing those numbers come up with foods and healthy fats and bile support and gallbladder and emulsification, to be able to boost those levels with increased amounts and targeted foods or it’s only hitting a window and you’re not getting to the levels that you want to get to?   Karen Martel: So what I’ve seen over and over again, is those interventions were using Phyto estrogens and there are some amazing supplements like black cohosh and Chasteberry and Vita which is also Vytex. Sage donk way, these are amazing Phyto estrogens flaxseed. Flaxseed is the number one most Phyto estrogen food and it is so good for you. Because these things all react on what’s called the betta receptor, that estrogen better receptor, which is just a softer estrogen signaling. There’s alpha, there’s betta, we need both, but betta is the less harsh of the estrogen receptors. So it works so so well for it. When you’re in your 40s you’re hitting that perimenopause member, I said that estrogen starts to go on the wild ride. That is the time when you start using these Phyto estrogens and the foods and you’re going to make sure that you’ve got your like you said, like the good fats coming in because that’s what’s going to help you to make those hormones. You’re going to support your adrenal system, you’re going to eat the right foods, you’re going to exercise, you’re gonna do all those things, and it’s really going to help and those things will help as well when you’re in your fertile years in your 20s and 30s. Taking things like Vytex Oh my gosh, amazing. I’ve seen women’s progesterone just skyrocket by taking Vytex which is the same as Chasteberry, which is the same as Chasteberry. Yeah, right. Amazing. And I’ve seen women in their 40s who are riddled with perimenopause symptoms, there are hot flashes, I was one of them. I started going into menopause at an early age and started having hot flashes and night sweats and waking in and all of these problems. And of course, the hormone specialist has this has to happen to me, right? And taking a really good menopause supplement and watching the food I was eating, did wonder for two years, it was all I had to do. And I see this constantly with my clients and my members as well where I can make these recommendations. They do amazing. And then it’s like it all stops working. It may be like those black cohosh, you know, the flax, the soy can help a little bit with those symptoms. But, once your ovaries stop producing hormones, which happens to every one of you women, it will happen. It’s inevitable to happen to every single one of us. At that point, you cannot diet or supplement your way back into hormones, you just can’t. You have to have those things as a foundational piece. You know, same with the man it’s like, you know when you’re in your 30s and 40s, you shouldn’t be running off to a testosterone clinic and getting testosterone replacement. No, there’s so much you can do to bring back your testosterone levels before going down that road because as soon as you start replacing, that’s going to replace your production and you’re going to stop producing it so it will have a replacement. It’s replacing so you don’t want to go down that road until you have to. But when you’re at an age men or women where you are just simply not producing it anymore. Then if you are suffering even if you’re not I still believe in the benefits of bioidentical replacement because of what the research shows us.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That is transdermally This is transdermal.   Karen Martel: you can take bioidentical progesterone orally. It is it mostly converts into metabolizing when you take it orally but estrogen always transdermal. And same with testosterone, always transdermal.   Dr. Joel Rosen: When you say transdermal, like through skin through the lotion through some kind of trachea or something like that.   Karen Martel: I don’t know. I don’t like chokey is stroke easy. We’ll get down into your body so you’ll go through the first hepatic pass of the liver and we don’t want that so I don’t like testosterone or estrogen truckies progesterone but not I don’t think I’ve seen women’s lots of bad stuff estrogen goes out which is a more inflammatory estrogen when you take it orally, so none of that transdermal. So cream on your skin. patches, estrogen patch shots, some women do shots. Vaginal suppositories Those are the main, the safest ones that you can take there are some bioidentical oral estrogens now on the market, I still know. Even though it’s bioidentical, it’s not forced from horse pregnant horses anymore. But still, you know, never take it orally. Because why would you when it’s when you can get it transdermally, it’s that much safer. And then it’s identical to what your body produces. And so the research shows us that women that replace their hormones for at least 10 years post-menopause have a 30% reduction of all-cause mortality. So that’s pretty big. And so you can’t eat or supplement your way out of it, you have to have those as foundational pieces to take on the hormones when you if you do decide to replace them, you want to make sure that all those pathways are up and running because if not, you could start slapping on all this estrogen. And if you’re not methylating, or you don’t have that phase one proper, or you’re not pooping every single day, you could then gain weight from it or have adverse side effects from it. And that goes with any hormone too. I’ve seen women even with progesterone where they don’t feel well on it. So you want to prepare your system for it. But I have found that you can’t Phyto estrogen your way out of it. In most cases, if you’re suffering from those symptoms, and indeed, sometimes they may not be outward symptoms drawl. They can be internal, where you some women will be like, I’m not I don’t have any hot flashes, I feel great. I haven’t gained any weight. I haven’t had my period for years. But what’s happening on the inside? Like, is the cholesterol going up? Are they getting insulin resistance or are they’re gonna get osteoporosis? We’ve got estrogen receptors on every organ of the body. So it can affect how everything is running. It affects your immune system, your gut health, your adrenal health, and your brain health, it just goes on and on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah, yeah, you know, and obviously, the adrenal connection is depending on how much wear and tear and stress and whether you’re conscious or not, it’s still happening. But a lot of the times you have a history, that would make an amazing bestseller in terms of a book you can’t even think of right like with marriages and a house burning down and post-traumatic this and that, and then more than whatever it is if your body has been under so much stress, and now you’re heading into the twilight years, and the will that Twilight, but the sunset, if you will, of that reproductive system, then the adrenals are burdened with the task of picking up the slack. And it depends on how much wear and tear is going to necessitate for you to decide, okay, I’m going to do the foundational things, I’m going to reduce my oxidative stress, I’m going to breathe through this, I’m going to enlist with my support system, I’m going to get my circadian rhythm aligned, I’m going to stabilize my blood sugar, I’m going to compress my time window, I’m going to do all these things, and then decide, okay, maybe I need to support this. So I guess that’s the Shades of Grey, where do you use them? Karen, in terms of, is there an absolute benchmark level in terms of you seeing this number and you gave it a certain shot? And it just never got above there? When do you make that call with that shade of gray, where you don’t want to be too early and say let’s push it and give you this bio-identical transdermal before you no matter what have to put those other things in place. But how do you you know, decide at that point? Okay, let’s make that next leap. Because it’s not getting us to that next level.   Karen Martel: Yeah, that’s, that’s a very individual thing because some women are hit way harder than others. You know, had somebody looked at my hormone levels at 42, they would have said, Oh, you’re fine. You got lots of estrogen yet progesterone, you’re doing just great. But yet, I was hot flashing, and I’m like, I’m dying. Like it was terrible. It was all day long night sweats. And I could feel that my period was starting to go missing like I had all the symptoms of estrogen deficiency, and my follicular stimulating hormone was going up. And I’ve been relying more and more on that marker because follicle stimulating hormone is telling your ovaries to make estrogen. And so it will continue to go up for the rest of your life unless you replace your estrogen so your brain will tell your ovaries forever to make estrogen. And the higher it goes, that seems the more weight women will gain and the more symptoms they start to have. Now, this isn’t everybody’s very complex, but we’ll just general when I see that that is going up and And it matches with the symptoms that that person’s telling me. So maybe they’ve gained Sudden weight gain without changing their diet, their emotional instant, you know, unstable, there’s sex drive, that’s one of the first things to go. Same with insomnia, like women, will say, I can’t sleep anymore, I’ve got no sex drive, my vagina is drying up, you know, like, what’s happening, and a doctor would look at her estrogen levels and probably say, Oh, you’re just fine, or just right where you should be, the range for estrogen is in Canada is 250 to 2000. So that’s ridiculous. So there are some women that I say are more estrogenic, I’m very estrogenic always have that you look at even my genetic profile, and it shows that I’m more estrogenic. So some women are more androgenic. And then others are more estrogenic. And those estrogenic, women need that estrogen. So there are the women that are slight dip, and then a slight raise and that FSH and they’ve gained 20 pounds and their complete train wreck. So for somebody like that, I’m not going to say, hey, wait till you’re done your period, because a lot of physicians will say, we’re not going to replace your estrogen until you are in menopause, which is one year without a period. But my thing is, is why are we waiting for a woman’s in a hot mess with 20 pounds overweight, and you know, her marriage is in the toilet. And so no sex drive, can’t sleep? No, and she’s done all the supplements, she’s done the diet, she’s done the exercise, at that point, then, oh my gosh, give her some estrogen and progesterone. And so because it’s instantaneous like women will text me and be like, could seriously be this fast. And I’m like, Yes, that’s how fast it can work. It can be overnight that you feel better. And that, you know, I remember one woman, she was like, one weekend, I have her testimony on my website, she’s like, I can feel the juices flowing in my vagina, Karen, like, whoa, you know what she was so happy. And so if it’s like that, if you’re that person, then don’t wait, because you’re being told that you need to wait one year or two without a period to be in menopause. Like take control of your health, you don’t have to suffer, go get the help that you need. And then there are some women that who just need to manage stress and their blood sugar, and they can go into menopause, maybe a year or two years. And then maybe they’ll say, okay, maybe I’ll start replacing my hormones just for health’s sake. And they don’t have a lot of outward symptoms. And those women tend to be more androgenic typically, and so it’s, it’s very different for each person, but just know that you don’t have to suffer. And if you have done all those foundational pieces, then look into replacing the hormones if you are suffering because some women, can become suicidal they can, and it can be a terrible time. And ladies, this can be one of the best times of your life. So don’t cheat yourself of that. Don’t be like, Oh, I know, I’m gonna tough my way through this and tough my way through menopause. And I don’t want to do bioidentical hormones, that’s not natural. Well, it’s not, it’s also not natural to lose all of your hormones. What it does to you is to can be terrible, and can take away your vitality. And you can have the best years of your life at this time, especially with your partner. I think it’s can be amazing. But if neither of you has hormones, and you’re losing your marvels, it’s not fun. And so just know that you don’t have to suffer.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s some amazing things in there. And just to summarize that, Karen, thank you so much for sharing your wisdom as far as summarizing that what I look at is the old way and the new way, right? So the old way for a lot of women is to take the damn, I’m estrogen dominant, just get it out of me. And that doesn’t work, right? Or the old way is just to take these hormones, and let’s restore them to your, your biological age in your prime. And let’s not look at the mechanics of everything else as to why they got there. Maybe they’re not clearing out effectively in phases one, two, and three, and figuring out where along the way they need to be supported. We’re not going to focus on your stress levels or your your your support system or your circadian rhythm, or your diet or your blood sugar, we’re just going to reductionistic ly give you this and then play Whack a Mole. And when a test comes back, we’ll give you more or when a test comes back, we’ll give you last because that’s not going to cut it and the reality is is you need to work with someone that understands these things and doesn’t just say oh, I’m a functional medicine doctor and anti-aging specialist and all they do is give you hormones. The other thing I kind of want to unpack too because it might have been confusing for a woman to listen is that if you’re more estrogenic versus androgenic it doesn’t necessarily mean you have more estrogen hormones. It just means that you have dysregulated metabolism or functioning of estrogen to what we’ve talked about earlier, where you may not be clearing it out in phases one, two, and three, effectively, you have partially metabolized the relationship to progesterone is not in that in an ideal balanced system, which is putting more pressure on your cortisol. And ultimately, what it comes down to I like to say it’s a demand and supply thing you have more demand than you do supply. You don’t have the minerals, the B vitamins, the proteins, the enzymes to run the system at what you need to and your body’s going to take really important considerations as to allocating where do they go? And guess what takes the backseat? You know, is reproduction right? I mean, you’re not going to add to your house, I see you’re not going to add another wing to your house, when you know, you don’t have any extra spending money to do that. You’re just going to use that towards buying groceries and making sure that you it may be contracting versus expanding. So awesome information. And I liked the reminder to Karen, in terms of what a doctor does is they ask their patients or their health coach and nutritional specialist, or functional medicine provider is they ask their patient, tell me about your life? What’s going on? What has been going on, you know, what did you get? How did you get here? You know, and what are all the things going on for you and how you feeling and tell me about the impact it’s having on you and give me real-life examples of how this is going. And then let me look at your blood test to see if they are saliva or urine test to see if these correlate and then, of course, the LH and FSH. If those numbers are elevated, it means that that brain I use the LH FSH, TSH ACTH. All of those pituitary hormones are jockeys to the horses. And if those horses are running slow, those jockeys are whipping them to run faster. So you’ll see FSH V high, LHB, high, and the same thing for males with hypogonadism. And the same thing for females where your boys or your girls, they’re not working at the level they used to, and the jockeys telling them to run faster, that might be a good time for you to realize that it’s time to support you. Just curious about Canada. Are you working alongside other doctors so that you can get access to these trends? thermals are you able to predict how you do that for your clientele?   Karen Martel: Yeah, so typically most of my clients are actually in the States. And I find that I’ll give my recommendations and I’ll usually tell them to first take them to the primary physician. Because a lot of the time doctors are not ever trained in bioidentical hormone therapy or menopause and medical school. So they typically have no clue. They’re running on old evidence about bioidentical hormones and are not bioidentical, sorry, hormone replacement therapy, which came from the horse. That’s their knowledge about it. So a lot of the time, they can go to them and say, Hey, this is what I would like to do. I’m suffering, I want to try bioidentical hormones. And a lot of the time the doctor does get on board. If they don’t, then yes, I have physicians all over the United States and Canada that I work with that do the prescribing for me. And that will work with me when I’m working with clients in the United States, you guys can get most things actually over the counter. I don’t typically recommend that as your first go I always want somebody to be under the care of their physician first. If that physician isn’t willing to do it, that person doesn’t have money to go to you know, a hormone clinic which can be pretty pricey, then you know, I’ll have them do some things like going having a pelvic ultrasound done, go and have your thermography down on your breasts, you know, we’ll do bloodwork we’ll test the hormones and we’ll watch you carefully we’ll prepare the body and then they can buy them over the counter from only a couple I only have a couple of companies that I’ve researched and that I’ve seen have really good quality products. I have my own in my shop a couple of them like you know progesterone DHEA pregnenolone there are a couple of companies that do have estrogen as well. That works well so I have had to turn to that sometimes. Because if somebody can’t afford to see the hormone clinic or doctor and some hormone doctors are not doing a very good job they’re doing you know pellet therapy they’re you know that even testosterone clinics for men it’s overdone in the way they’re doing it is it’s not in a very safe way for men so I.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I have my ways job a lot easier in today’s day and age. And I think that it’s, you know, I’m always team patients you can go to and have your doctor if they’re on board. I don’t know the recommended doses, do you have that listed on your site? Or in terms of the ideal if you are to get a go this route and do transdermal hormone replacements and optimization, what starting point would be on that at all?   Karen Martel: No, and I won’t publicly say that, because each of us is different. And it’s gonna take something different. There are some women, I’ve known women that have done what’s called physiologic restoration of hormones because that’s what they needed to feel their best. And that’s, you know, levels of 20 milligrams of estrogen a day, which most doctors would just die if they heard that. But I see some women flourishing on that high amount, right? I don’t recommend that personally, because I can’t if I can’t control it and be monitoring them, then I want them to go see a doctor that does physiologic restoration.   Dr. Joel Rosen: But the individualized, theory individual.   Karen Martel: And that’s where you also have to be very careful. So I educate women on this, this is what I do is I provide women with education, I provide them with reference ranges where it’s like, okay, if your FSH is above 10, you know, that this probably time to start replacing, especially if it’s above 20. We want to get it down below around 20. But really, it comes down to how your same town? Yes, because every one of us is going to be different right?   Dr. Joel Rosen:  That’s awesome information. Thank you so much for sharing all of your insight. As far as I mean, we can talk about so much, but I want to kind of get your insight. We call this podcast, we’ve gone back with different iterations that were your adrenal fix. And I like to know you had your health challenges. And perhaps there were some roadblocks or setbacks or plateaus, or even not even that cared about, maybe you have all this amazing new information that along with those other things that I just mentioned, these amazing hacks or clinical pearls. I like that word clinical pearls are things that you could have implemented to maybe avoid some trials and tribulations or leapfrog you a lot further and faster. What would the sage-like Karen, tell I always say that bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Karen, about stress and the impact it has on your health and any things you’ve learned along the way?   Karen Martel: I think number one would be testing, honestly, because there’s so much overlap between the symptoms of hormone imbalance. And as we talked about, in today’s discussion, every woman thinks she’s got estrogen dominance. And also everybody thinks they have adrenal problems. And they just start downing the next best adrenal supplement, without actually knowing Do you have too high or too low? Do you have just dysregulation? Is it due to hypothyroidism? There are so many moving parts to it, that you cannot know unless you test and so you can do so much harm. Without the testing. I believe that and I see it over and over again. Are these people just willy-nilly in their supplements? And it’s like no, and I wouldn’t have ever guessed. I have been in adrenal insufficiency ever. And I suffered for so long and had I just gone and tested my hormones, which nobody would have told me if my 33-year-old self, then I could have saved a lot of issues. Even with my thyroid. I suffered for years and years and years with an underactive thyroid, because nobody tested it properly. And it wasn’t till my naturopath insisted that I do the full panel because I was like, no, no, I’ve had my TSH done I’ve had my free T four. And he’s like, do the free T three booth antibodies. And lo and behold, he phones me up. It’s like how are you even walking around your teeth? Your T-three is so low. Right? You know, like it just even just the testing I think it’s it’s invaluable. And I understand that it can be a pricey thing to do. But save the money for it. It’s worth it to get that big picture of what’s happening with your hormones. You can’t test cortisol through bloodwork. I’m sure you’ve talked about this lots, it’s just not accurate. We need to see this full picture to be able to help somebody.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and you know, I would say a couple of add-ons just to that is don’t test everything right test the things that are the most important because if you do say those heavy metal tests sticking in the lead testing, and you have all this information, start with the most important stuff, that’s blood work and hormones and kind of go from there and work with someone. That’s great. And then the other point is, don’t just treat the test, right? Because you’re treating Karen, who came out with this test, and it was a day in her life of her and it doesn’t represent everything. And there’s no real standardized answer for everyone that this is the way it needs to be. So it’s more of a lighthouse of, okay, we get some insight, we’re not just, you know, hook line, and sinker on this result has to be this way, but at the same time, I need the test. And that comes back to, to balance in terms of, you don’t want too much of something, you don’t want too little of something, you want to be able to have the just the perfect right amount of that. And that means the perfect amount of testing the perfect amount of reliance on the information on the test, the perfect amount of doing things in your life that has nothing to do with any of that. I mean, there’s so much balance. So as far as getting in contact with you and seeing you on the internet, I’m sure most people have already heard of you. But just for the listeners that you may be new for. How do they get in contact with you, Karen, and the podcast you mentioned and your socials, and your website? Why don’t you tell our listeners where to find more information about what you do?   Karen Martel: Yeah, so I’m on Karen martell.com, I’ve got a great hormone quiz, which is a great place for people to start is just a general, of course, is just a quiz everybody, it’s not a test, but it will give you some understanding of if there is hormonal imbalance, possibly causing your weight loss resistance. That’s what the quiz is about. And then it’ll give you a little ebook about that possible imbalance. And then, you know, give you information on proper testing. And I give you a two-week meal plan that is a carb cycling calorie cycling meal plan to optimize your hormones and your metabolism. So that’s a great place to start my podcast the other side of weight loss was rated as one of the top weight loss podcasts of 2021. We were in the top 20. Always been in the top 100 on iTunes for over 200 episodes, and Jules is going to be coming out soon. Awesome. Yeah. And where else? Oh, and then on social media. I’m at Karen Martell hormones.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And it’s a r e n M AR T L, right? Yep. Awesome. You have that funny Canadian accent I can hear in there as I hear that. So awesome. Well, listen, I appreciate your help. And I love that you’re getting all that stuff you just mentioned in terms of the quiz, the results, the diet that’s all free that they can get. Yep, everything’s free. Awesome. I’ll post the links on my social so they’ll be able to get access to them. And I wish you continued success. I know that our paths will continue to cross and I look forward to catching up next time. But thank you for spending your time with us today. Karen and I look forward to seeing the success that you have for yourself and your clients in the future. To check out Karen and her services, click here. The post Estrogen dominance Uncensored: Learn The Real Reason For Hormone Imbalance appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And I was joined here by a special guest, Danielle Hamilton, who I had the opportunity of meeting at the metabolic health summit. And she’s been on a journey where she originally saw 14 doctors in one single year and realized that she was sick of sick and tired of being sick and tired. And she ended up learning how to get her body back and she went through the nutritional therapy Practitioner program. And now she is the blood sugar specialist, and I hope to get all of the nooks and crannies out of her today. So Danielle, thank you so much for being here today.   Danielle Hamilton: Thanks for having me. I’m so excited to connect again. It was so nice meeting you at MHS.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it was, and, uh, you know, we still have some unfinished business because you were telling me about some of your, you know, maybe some of your continuation of not being at 100% Perfect Health and but anyways, we’ll get there. So why don’t you take us back through your journey and why you got into the area that you did?   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah, you’ll maybe understand a little why about why I have you know, have to dig myself out of a lot as I’m sure a lot of your listeners do because we don’t grow up eating, you know, these perfect diets, and then we just have this one indiscretion and it’s my life I grew up on processed breakfast carbohydrates. And I always said that I had a sweet tooth, I would go to a barbecue and eat the bun with ketchup but not not the burger.   And it’s just I had a lot of colds and sicknesses, ear infections, flu, lots of rounds of antibiotics, and lots of strep throat. When I got to my senior year in high school, I had strep throat six times a year and had to get my tonsils out. The next year I developed allergies, you kind of removed that one piece of the immune system, and you know, things went awry, I was eating worse, drinking more alcohol, staying up late, and stressed out. So that created to set the stage for a messed up gut, I had tons of allergies. I had asthma, I was needing to be on allergy and asthma medications. I moved down to Miami, Florida for graduate school. And there as you know, the season is year-round for allergies. I was allergic to palm trees as it turns out. And so I was getting so many allergy shots because my allergies were just out of control even with the medications. And so I had to get five shots because I was allergic to so many things. I was giving myself five shots in the stomach every other day because long story that I won’t go into but they allowed sort of a nurse to give me the shots. And then I asked the nurse to teach me how to do it. So I was doing it myself. Not legal. But I was still suffering so much. And I was developing more and more allergies because I wasn’t healing the root cause I was having sinus infections. I’m like, I’m in my early 20s. What the heck is happening to me? No doctor could answer why it was happening. It was just kind of like, oh, this is kind of bad luck, or, you know, oh, just the card you were dealt in life. And it didn’t sit well with me. I just kept asking why. And I didn’t feel like it was enough of an answer that sort of satisfied that question. And at the time, I was working as a speech pathologist in a skilled nursing facility. And I saw all of my clients of my patients back then had tons of diagnoses, we had to do all the chart reviews and write down all their diagnoses, write down all their medications. That was the longest part of my job writing down these long lists. And so I was looking at them and all their medications, I was looking at me and all my prescription medications. And I was like, oh my goodness, what’s gonna happen to me when I’m their age, you know, my 70s 80s I’m gonna end up exactly like this. Maybe worse. Because I’m already on all of these now, I came across the book, The Paleo Diet Solution by Rob Wolf. And basically, it just flipped everything I knew on its head, I learned to embrace fat, embrace salt, and get rid of processed foods. And so I did the opposite of what I had been taught and what I had been doing my whole life. And it was like magic. My gut must have healed and I got rid of the allergy shots. I never was allergic to anything anymore. No asthma, no sinus infections, no other infections, and things that I was dealing with. And it was I wanted to shout it from the rooftops. It was amazing. And I saw the true healing power of food. So I had a stressful year, the next year, and all of a sudden I started I was still eating paleo, and I started to gain weight I started to have I always had some acne, but now it was like all the time. It was cystic acne. It was all over my face in different places. It never was before like my cheeks and I lost my period. And I was fatigued. I would sleep all morning and I was always an early riser. And I would sleep until like 10 or 11 am. So a lot of these symptoms of classic, you know, adrenal fatigue that we hear about, and I was like, Oh, my goodness, they’re what’s happening. Something is happening to my hormones. So I kind of figured out that through Google searches that I had the polycystic ovarian syndrome. So everything that I was doing everything online that I read to fix PCOS, was don’t have gluten, don’t have dairy don’t have refined sugar. And I said, check, check, check. I am doing all those things. So I might as well just paleo harder. And, because nothing changed, nothing changed. I was frustrated, I was struggling, and I felt helpless and hopeless. And so I ended up going to a mainstream doctor to just try to get on some medication to feel a little bit better. Maybe I just needed a little bridge to get me there something. So I told the doctor, look, I can’t lose weight no matter what I do. I think I have PCOS. And he said you do have PCOS. You have to lose weight. There’s no cure, and you have to take the pill. Like, oh, great advice, Doc. So I walked out of there ripped up the script, and I was extra motivated to fix it myself. So I still struggled and couldn’t find what I was, you know, I was trying to affect all the sex hormones, the testosterone and estrogen and progesterone that are affected with PCOS. And I just was never making a dent in it. Until one day I heard a podcast that said PCOS is the diabetes of the ovaries and I almost drove my car off of the Florida Turnpike. I was driving at the time. And I just I was like, Oh my goodness. Are you serious? What? Wait. Diabetes has something to do with blood sugar. But I don’t know what that’s all I knew about it. I knew something about that something about amputations because I had seen a lot of diabetic patients, you know, as a speech therapist. So that was all I knew about diabetes. That was all I knew about blood sugar. And this is coming from a person who had done a ton of research and works on her health. And it was like, wow, I know nothing about this. I always skip those chapters on blood sugar. I thought it didn’t apply to me because I wasn’t diabetic. So going back, I sort of reflected Okay, let’s start learning about blood sugar. So I looked at my old labs, my blood sugar when I would get lab work at that time for PCLs was 60, which is pretty hypoglycemic. And I remember feeling dizzy, shaky, and lightheaded. As I stepped back, I almost passed out. Honestly, one time, I had this like, step back moment where I was like, Oh, my goodness, this is crazy. This is why I need to eat in the morning. I just thought I was a breakfast person. It was a person who just liked to eat when they got up. I didn’t know what that meant. I didn’t know 60 was bad. Because no one told me anything. None of the doctors said boo about my blood sugar being at 60. They’re like, Oh, great. It’s under 100. It’s really under 100. That’s perfect. But I didn’t feel well at that number. Some people can but not me at that point. So then I looked back and I was like, oh, maybe this is why I always need to eat as soon as I wake up, maybe this is why I shake after having coffee. Maybe this is why I don’t say I have one sweet tooth but I have all sweet teeth. Maybe this is why I have to eat before I go out to eat because I can’t tolerate any sort of delay in being I can’t tolerate hunger. It doesn’t feel good in my body. And this was also why I was that girl who had the granola bar in her purse. I always carried food with me wherever I went. Because I couldn’t tolerate hunger. Because my hunger was not hunger. It was a blood sugar crash or starting that blood sugar decline. And once I recognized how to fix that, I got rid of the blood sugar issues. I got rid of the PCOS, and here I am today.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, thanks for taking us down the stroke of memory lane. Success leaves clues. And I liked the idea of not stopping especially when you had the epiphany with the Paleo book and then realized well, I’m just trading all of these medications that I was concerned about 70 years later for a whole slew of other problems making you realize that something’s being missed, or I’m not addressing or extinguishing the Ember, that’s still smoldering. And I guess the question that I would have, and then obviously learning the role that blood sugar plays with that and how blood sugar in your case was low. And you needed to have several meals to make sure that you didn’t get a quote-unquote hangry. As far one of the things that I would like to know based on just looking back at it now and with the clientele that you worked with. One of the questions I did a recent survey on the people that I work with, Hey, what’s your number one challenge as it relates to adrenal fatigue and some of the repeated questions I’m getting Danielle is what Why do I have this, and it makes me frustrated that they don’t know why they have it. Because at the end of the day, it’s not a shock. Like, I’ll give you an example. In my first year of graduate undergraduate college, I was away from home for the first time, 19 years old, and played for the varsity soccer team, going to class was an elective, you know, like going to the bar was required. And I remember having an exam. And like we had like, say, Monday, Wednesday, Monday, Wednesday, Friday classes, and I needed to have all the notes, and I remember having Monday’s and maybe Friday of the next week, and I did well on the notes that I had, but I didn’t do well in the ones that I didn’t do. And it wasn’t a concern, it would be like me saying, I don’t understand why I’m doing so poorly on these tests. And really, it’s that accountability in terms of like, no shit, like, I mean, you got to study all the material to do well, you know, like, are you mean, like, I can’t go to the barbecues and just have a bun with ketchup on it. You know, like, so we’re at because a lot of the times we get mad, right? We get mad at the doctors as they told me 60 was fine. They told me that all I need to, I can never fix this, while they give us bad information, where along your journey and with the people that you see, do you find that being a major problem of like, you gotta look in the mirror to like, give yourself like, Oh, I love you. And I’ll be your most supporting person. But I’ll also like, to put the mirror in front of you to take accountability. Where do you say that comes in for you and for the people that you work with?   Danielle Hamilton: That’s a great question. And a great sort of reflection exercise, if you will. One of the things that I think just overall is that as a society, we’re just so disconnected from how humans are supposed not supposed to live, but how we evolved and what we need as a species. So we know that like a cat needs to eat a carnivore diet, and they need to hunt and like, we know the needs of certain animals like you go to a zoo. And if they’re not doing that, they’re like sitting in the corner shaking. It’s like, we need a species-appropriate diet, we need a species-appropriate lifestyle, and our modern lifestyle, and also all the propaganda, all the information that we’re getting is, so it’s disconnecting us so much from who we truly are as a species and what makes us healthy. So those things include things like being in nature, not always being in front of these lights in front of screens connected surrounded by Wi-Fi surrounded by toxins, always on connected. eating processed foods like I might journey started when I let my interest in nutrition started when I learned and this was in my 20s when I was suffering from allergies, I learned that onions had vitamins and minerals. I know this is the weirdest thing. But so I was in a conversation with a friend. And I looked up and like oh my gosh, onions have vitamins and minerals. I didn’t know I was the processed food kid. I didn’t know because it didn’t have a nutrition label on it. I just thought that the nutrition came from the ones with the labels and like, you know, life cereal, I’d be like reading the ingredients and the nutrition facts when I’d be eating this, you know, sitting with the cereal box. And so I realized how disconnected I was we don’t grow up knowing like what needs to go into the soil, all these things. So we’re just so disconnected that we think that Oh, well. I said no to the fries. And I got a salad with my burger. And I asked for whole wheat bread instead of regular bread. And I got, you know, a granola bar instead of a Twix bar. And we think we’re making all these sacrifices. So we think why aren’t I healthier? So I think that where we’re taught what we’re taught is healthy. And so the proceeds and the actual sacrifices that we’re making, to try to be healthier. There. It’s the wrong information we’re given. We’re constantly given the wrong information. And we’re not told these things that move the needle forward. So we’re doing all this work. And we’re like, on a treadmill. We’re just staying in the same place because the whole wheat cracker is not any better than the saltine cracker. It’s just not better. It’s not better for you. It’s not going to move the needle forward. Right? So I think that we’re, we’re and then we’re looking around or seeing other people were like, how come they can do this? How come they can stay up and eat all this junk? And you know, my husband doesn’t gain weight but I do and this person, it’s like, but we don’t know what’s going on metabolically with all these people. When I had those allergies. I was the thinnest I’ve ever been in my life. I was also partying a ton. I lived in Miami, you know I was like grad school was easy and I and I were partying and drinking And who knows what else and I was the skinniest I ever was in my life, and also the sickest. So what’s happening on the outside? So I feel like this all leads up to, why is this happening. I’m doing what they told they told me to eat three meals and three snacks. They told me to eat, you know, they told me to stay away from fat. So we have all these terrible, this terrible advice. So I feel like yes, there is some disconnect on a personal level of like, hey, we need to take an inventory of what we’re doing. Like, is it really good? I think there’s that personal responsibility. But I think it’s also so hard to see, with all the information they give us and our lived experience. So I think that it’s, you know, it’s easy to be confused and to wonder that so that’s my take.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, I think it’s a great answer. I mean, I think that in the instance that I gave you if someone asked me to look back at what you’re doing, and not studying all the notes, do you expect to do well, I would have been honest with myself and like, No, not really. Whereas you don’t know any better. And especially our parents should have the responsibility of teaching us proper health and nutrition. And they should have the tools to be able to do that where all the food that they get, especially for growing up in a single family, divorce family, very similar to where you were where cereals, and processed food and Kraft dinner and all those things where your parents think they’re doing the right thing for you as well when really, those are all adulterated foods and you think you’re being so I agree with you. I think that it’s not knowing, and it’s just not knowing what you don’t know. And I think that if someone really like sat down with you like sort of like Ebony’s attorneys, Ebenezer Scrooge, and had you look at the Christmases of yes, the year, and you look back and like now, now, you know, Danielle, do you think like this is the healthiest thing compared to? You would probably not know. Or you would probably like think Yeah, that’s right. But until then, you have all these aha’s along the way, and you start tripping over the sacred cow. So I’d love to continue that journey in terms of the additional sacred cow. So now in terms, you realize that PCOS is the diabetes of the ovaries? I skip those chapters because it doesn’t apply to me, but maybe it does. So take us through there now.   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah, so blood sugar affects every single cell organ and process in the body. So once I started diving into blood sugar, I realized that all these seemingly unrelated symptoms were the tying Link was the blood sugar and insulin stuff. So blood sugar and insulin are connected, we’ve maybe we could just talk about that first. So that when we eat carbohydrates, and also protein, the sugar gets digested raising the amount of sugar in our blood. And then the pancreas gets that signal that the blood sugar is elevating, and it secretes this hormone called insulin. An insulin’s job is to escort the sugar into the cells of the body so that it can be used to make energy or to be stored later as body fat. And so insulin is very important. But what happens when we’re spiking our blood sugar all the time, which becomes the problem, these blood sugar spikes are really what is causing the problem. So we’re like, what’s the problem with blood sugar, we need the sugar. The trouble comes from the spikes when it goes up too high and stays elevated too long, or when it goes up too fast. Or when it goes up too often, if we’re constantly spiking our blood sugar, because they’re telling us to eat three meals and three snacks. And we’re just grabbing this, we’re you know, preparing something throwing a little bit in our mouth, all day long. Oh, and then we have coffee. And we have energy drinks and a little bit of this, oh, there’s a doughnut in the break room. Like we’re just nonstop. There are things in our mouths constantly. So we’re not eating just three meals and three snacks. There are some studies out there that we Americans eat something like 28 times a day. I mean, we’re eating many, many, many times a day. And so we’re spiking our blood sugar constantly, and the insulin just keeps going up. And it takes longer than the blood sugar does to come down. So over time, this insulin just keeps rising and rising and rising and rising. And we start to develop insulin resistance. So basically, we need more and more insulin to do the job because the body’s kind of ignoring it. Now it’s not as sensitive to the signal. So we have these elevating levels of insulin, and now the blood sugar might come down because we have so much insulin. And so that was me my blood sugar was coming down. There’s also always an adrenal component when there’s this hypoglycemia. Even one incidence of a hypoglycemic episode is enough to indicate the presence of some sort of adrenal dysfunction. And then, on the other hand, some people never go to where their blood sugar is going down. They just see their blood sugar start rising. And so the blood sugar, the fasting blood sugars, rise over time and the more dysregulated the blood sugar, so the more the highs and the lows, the more time we spend in those low numbers, the more time we spend in the high numbers, the more diffuse and the more intense the effects of the blood sugar dysregulation becomes. So early signs of blood sugar issues might just be if like a meal is delayed, or when you wake up if you have too fast for blood work, or you know, the meeting goes late at work and you’re like, Oh, why am I so hungry. So, what you might notice at these early stages are that I experienced dizziness shakiness, lightheaded, feeling hangry, brain fog, difficulty concentrating, anxiety, heart palpitations, sweating, nausea, and then carbohydrate cravings. Because what’s happening is the body is perceiving that the energy is going away. It’s like, oh, we’re running out of energy. So it’s kind of like sends on the gas light in the car, it’s like, energy is getting low, I feel it going down. So it’s going to turn on that gas light, it’s going to send you these symptoms so that you go get something to eat. And it’s not going to be a beautiful ribeye with some organic broccoli. No, it’s going to be like, go get a Red Bull from the gas station or go grab, you know, a bar or something like that. So then you eat again, and it spikes your blood sugar again. So it puts us on this blood sugar roller coaster. So as we progress in that we have symptoms from head to toe, so we know diabetes is being called Alzheimer’s is called diabetes. Type three, we know that we get there are a lot of neurological issues associated with blood sugar and dysregulation, insulin resistance, and diabetes. So things like epilepsy and seizures, and all sorts of mood disorders, migraines. And then once we get into the eyes, macular degeneration, we know sugar causes issues in the mouth, we know it causes issues on the skin, and we know that insulin resistance causes hypertension and heart disease. And we know that as we get into the stomach and the gut and the gallbladder how insulin resistance is affecting all the motility in there, the sugar is impacting the gut bacteria, it’s impacting the adrenals. The adrenals don’t like these highs and lows and blood sugar, because it’s stressful when the blood sugar goes low. And we run out of glycogen or we can’t access that glycogen, which is stored blood sugar in the liver, then, because we have too much insulin, the adrenals are needed to pump up that blood sugar. And that’s a very expensive process and drains them further over time. So people who are having these big swings in blood sugar end up having dysfunctional adrenals because maybe they’re sort of hyperfunctioning Because it’s like, oh, geez, here it comes. Or it’s like they’re just out there out of fuel there guessed because they’ve had to just do this job of they’re like the backup generator having to bump up the blood sugar all the time. We know that blood sugar affects the kidneys. Diabetes is the number one cause of kidney failure or kidney disease. And then fertility is a big one. In both men and women, PCOS is it’s occurring in about 10 to 20% of women, it’s the leading cause of infertility. So these things and then, of course, you know, amputations on the legs, skin issues, energy mood, like it affects everything in our body. And then the symptoms just get worse and worse. So we start to have worse cholesterol numbers for blood sugar numbers. So this is the sort of progression. And then once you get to a certain number, they just label it prediabetes they label it diabetes. But all the while it’s the same thing. It’s the same spectrum. So we’re always on the spectrum. It’s like we want to get to this optimal level that some of us only have when we’re born. But then some of us are formula fed and it’s all over from there. Like you’d start to get the blood sugar dysregulation almost immediately. And it just gets worse and worse and worse. And then they just label it pre-diabetes and diabetes, but nothing’s changed too much. And then maybe your pancreas gives out and then you know you’re insulin-dependent, but it’s just a spectrum. It’s not an on and off switch, like type one diabetes, which is autoimmune. So I hope that information was helpful.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, it’s great. And then just to follow up on what you’re saying, there’s not a lot of constructive information about what to do about it change your diet, eat fewer carbs, or get on Metformin, get on insulin or get on some kind of medication. And by the time you’re failing the grade, you’re not addressing the shades of gray have the C pluses and the D minuses and stuff like that. So as far as the only other thing I would add is that I find a lot of the time which I’m sure you do as well, where people are super stressed and they’re releasing cortisol, and then that cortisol causes that insulin resistance as well. Right so now you have that double whammy where that person is not Probably only isolating his or her blood sugar spikes based on food that they’re eating, but also on the stress. And now you have several lines in the water that are adding to the oil stoking the fires. And so as far as now, what you do is you teach people how to how to reverse that, and what to do now that you know, the science and how it has its hand and in all the metabolic cookie jars, if you will, what, what do you do about it? You know, what’s your what is your teaching? And how do you go about it?   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah, so it’s a multifaceted approach, because like you said, you started talking about stress. And I think that stress is the number one most underrated and underappreciated cause of blood sugar dysregulation. So it’s usually multiple causes. It’s not usually just one thing. But it’s underrated. People are like, my diet is perfect. I’m going to the gym doing all these things. But they’re stressed case, and they’re always on and they’re always busy, and they’re always doing something and they’re not healing, and they wonder why. So the stress is a big one so that one can be first. And when we look at stress, we might look at things like Sleep, sleep is hugely important for optimizing blood sugar regulation, we know that without enough sleep, we’re immediately going to come more insulin resistant the next day. And then over time, it worsens that. So we need good blood sugar to have good sleep, but also good sleep to have good blood sugar. So they have this bi-directional relationship. The same thing with the adrenals, we need good blood sugar to have good adrenals because if we have those spikes, it’s going to mess up the adrenals. But we also need our adrenals to function properly, to regulate our blood sugar adequately. So again, there’s that bi-directional relationship. So the adrenals are something we also work on. But I’m learning from you different ways to work on them. Then food is hugely, hugely important. So my method of doing this is by I love a real food diet. I’m a big, big proponent of eating whole real foods. And so I started myself with a paleo template, and I which is you know, like meats, vegetables, fats, some whole food, carbohydrates. And for me, I took out those whole food carbohydrates for a while, just up the fats, and made sure I had adequate, you know, animal protein fattier protein works better for blood sugar. And I was able to reverse my PCOS, basically, by doing that, and I did some intermittent fasting but upping the fats, making sure you have adequate fatty protein. Having some vegetables, if that feels good for you, is a really good just kind of template for how to build a plate that doesn’t spike your blood sugar, because fat has no impact on insulin, protein has a little bit but even less when there’s fat involved. And then the carbohydrates have a bigger like the biggest response. But when you have nonstarchy vegetables, it’s mostly fiber. So again, there’s almost no impact on the blood sugar. So you get a tiny rise at a meal that keeps you stable. We don’t want our blood sugar to be a flatline, that’s impossible, and that would probably mean we’re dead. So we can have these small little fluctuations, these little waves ebbs, and flow. And that feels good. So we want to dial in our blood sugar by working on certain things that help keep it more stable. So we can, if we’re still eating some whole food, carbohydrates, we can eat those last in the meal that makes a difference, as opposed to eating it sort of mixed in or having it first. So one of the worst things you could do is start a meal with bread, you’d rather start the meal with a salad because the fiber in the salad is going to slow the digestion and absorption of the sugar into the system. So start your meal with vegetables, and especially if there’s some vinegar on those vegetables, a lot of people do apple cider vinegar, or just like a shot of it or in a little bit of water before a meal that also reduces the blood sugar response to the meal, going for walks after your meal can also help to reduce the blood sugar response of meals. So planning your walks around those times are great and intense workouts. Building muscle is a great place to go, it’s really important because as you build muscle, you give more space for that glucose and insulin to go, and you improve the insulin sensitivity of the muscles. And so it’s almost like you’re creating little sponges. So think of your muscles as glucose sponges, so they could soak it up more. And so if you deplete those sponges at a really hard workout, then you eat a meal that has carbohydrates in it, your blood sugar response is going to be almost nothing because you’re just sort of refilling those sponges. So that’s a really good hack as well you know, eat a meal with carbs right after your workout because we don’t need to be any carb or ketogenic for a long time. And in fact, I don’t recommend that I recommend coming out cycling out of that as soon as you can. As soon as you feel like those. Maybe cravings have subsided some of the symptoms have gone away but So the foods, we want to increase our fat, do those blood sugar hacks, and consider some intermittent fasting. But what I find is a lot of people overdo it on fasting, I was one of those people, and I started to get cold while I was fasting. And I thought that was probably my thyroid, telling me, Hey, don’t do this so much a lot of people will do, I’m just doing two meals a day, and I’m eating, this was an actual direct message I got, I’m doing two meals a day, and I’m eating 11 155 calories a day. And I don’t know why but I’m really hungry at night, I’m like because you’re probably hungry. Because that’s an unsustainable amount of calories for a human being, like, we need to change things up, we need to, you know, introduce a refeeding day over eating more than 2000 calories, like, we have to have some variation in what we’re doing. And we have to not be afraid to eat three meals because two meals might be you know, better for healing blood sugar, and this, you know, one person’s view or whatever. So, um, that’s just my little stick about fasting. But that could be something really helpful. And then. And then yeah, getting your body into a relaxed state, is powerful. And also optimizing digestion, a lot of people can’t adequately digest fats and proteins, we don’t have enough stomach acid, we’re in a constantly stressed out state, that’s suppressing our digestive system. Because when, when our body perceives that we’re stressed, which for us is just there’s on or off with the stress, the sympathetic nervous system is not parasympathetic, it thinks we’re running from a lion. So it’s going to down-regulate things like digestion, reproduction, detox, and repair, it’s going to shuttle everything to you know, fight or flight, let’s getaway, you’re in that sympathetic overdrive, you’re draining your adrenals in that sense, and then you’re, you’re not digesting. So we need to tap into that relaxed state get out of that chronic sympathetic overdrive, so we can have the digestive juices I don’t like that term but have yet to find a good one. But we need all these, we need to chew our food adequately. And chewing stimulates the vagus nerve, which activates the parasympathetic. So we need to chew our food 30 times per bite, we need to, we need to look at our fat digestion, a lot of us are not digesting fats very well, especially if we have no gallbladder, but a lot of other people. So you might have intense sugar cravings, you might have stools that float, and they might be shiny or light or clay-colored. You may have meals like fatty meals, they might run right through you that’s a sign of chronic constipation is a sign of poor fat digestion, having dry skin itching, peeling feet is a symptom of having gallbladder attacks having there like a pain, it’s pain usually on your like your right side. But for some people, it could feel very internal, very diffuse, sort of in the whole ribcage, maybe kind of in the lower back, headaches right over your eyes. So all of these things can indicate poor fat digestion, a lot of us have these. And we don’t even realize it. So when we’re trying to stabilize our blood sugar, we’re not doing a good job, because we’re not absorbing what we’re eating. So I always focus on optimizing digestion first. Because if you can digest better, you’re going to do better on every single diet that you’re eating because you’re getting more than nutrients from your food. So you don’t have to supplement as much and things like that. And then one more thing, we do a lot of liver support. I love castor oil packs for that. But you know getting out toxins and gentle healing practices, like you know, infrared saunas and things like that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So those are all great, great stuff, look at it like going through the belts for martial art and ultimately becoming a black belt. And that’s where I want to get to Danielle with you like the first-degree second degree that’s where you understand the continuous glucose monitoring and understanding when to maybe employ a refeed. And we’ll get there in a second. As far as going along the way I agree with you when someone asked me what I like the template as a word like a template of what you’re on your food plate and good quality food that grandma would recognize, right? Getting a good representation of protein, carbs, and fats, but the carbs are more of a fiber that isn’t going to be starchy, lots of dense sugar in there, obviously, and a good or organic, moderate size to even smaller and that’s kind of the segue I want to take with you is probably with the Paleo diet that you read about and you started to switch from that and develop your next line of symptoms. Where does too much protein come into play with what you’ve learned and as you track because I find that we’re just conditioned that where’s the star of the meal like I need that piece of protein, it needs to be substantial? And what’s your viewpoint on, I guess, macro totals in terms of exceeding a protein threshold and how that might spike glucose? Or even realizing that your carbs even though the amount that you’re getting, still maybe not allow you to get into that ketogenic number. Yeah, we don’t want you to go down to 1100 calories per day. And where does the art come in? And starting from looking at the macros for you?   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah. So one thing before I answer that, you kind of mentioned that, you know, with my paleo diet and what had happened, what I think had happened with that, where I went wrong with paleo, personally, was I took a sort of inventory back on my diet, and I looked, and I was like, Okay, where are the carbohydrates and sugar that I’m eating because I’m not doing, you know, cane sugar, refined sugar. So I looked back and I was doing a half a banana blend into my iced coffee with coconut sugar. I did ice bowls, and smoothies and plantains, and sweet potatoes, and kombucha, and like, you name it, fruit and maple syrup, Paleo treats. You name the carb, and I was all over it. And I thought it was okay because I thought it was healthy sugar. And I thought it was I just thought it was free. So basically, what happened was that I think the protein was there. But I think I now embraced fat. Because I grew up in the 80s and 90s. In that low-fat era, my mom fed me very low fat, you know, she tried her best giving me a chicken breast cooked in Pam, canola oil, you know, like, that was the diet of the time. But now I finally embraced fat. But I also still had a lot of carbohydrates. And I think the two of those, it was too much energy at the same time. So I had too much insulin, it was storing everything. So that to me was a recipe for me gaining all that weight and developing all, that those issues. So in terms of your other question with the macros, at first, if someone wants to get into ketosis, they may need to lower their protein a little bit under what they might feel like is a normal portion at a meal. So maybe for someone like me, on the five foot one female, I might look at having maybe about six ounces of protein on a meal, but maybe might need to do four or five when I’m just starting ketosis to try to get into ketosis because we need to keep the blood sugar down to not have an insulin response. After all, the low insulin, presence of low insulin is going to trigger the liver to start creating ketones. So once you get keto-adapted, and fat adapted, you can and should, I think, raise the protein a little bit more. But what a lot of people do is they’re like, oh, a keto diet, they kind of see a little bit online, they’re like, oh, it’s like meat, and like eggs, and maybe cheese, like, okay, and so they do their version of it. And they’re eating a lot, a lot of meat, a lot of protein. And they’re like God, I can’t get into ketosis and my blood sugar is high. That’s gluconeogenesis, that’s the too much protein can’t be stored in the body, and is converted to sugar. And so that’s kind of what’s at play. So if you’re having trouble getting into ketosis, you’ll want to look at the carbohydrates and make sure they’re kind of under 50. Put on a continuous glucose monitor, and see if there’s a certain food you might be eating that even though it’s low carb, maybe it’s like, you have five raspberries at the end of your meal. But you see a big spike, maybe that’s just how your body reacts to raspberries or something. So, you know, look at the carbs, but also look at the amount of protein. But typically, I find that people don’t even need to lower their protein that much after the first few like two weeks or so then they can start to take it back up to that normal level where you have that six ounces of protein. And I think this is so important to do because protein is so so important. And so we don’t want to see especially if someone has a goal of fat loss, we don’t want them to be, you know, overeating, you know, these high amounts of fat. The original macros for a ketogenic diet were based on epilepsy, so we can kind of manipulate that for whatever we’re going through. So we don’t need to be in that high levels of ketosis. And you know, I eat a lot of me and my ketones over the past week have been like 2.3 3.0 2.1. So I’m in high levels of ketosis eating just, I don’t need to track my macros anymore, because I just know, I know how to eat. I know what my plate should look like. I do track it anyway. Just, you know, sometimes for fun. But um, yeah, I don’t know if that answered your question.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s good. I think it’s great information about thinking about it as don’t because one of the things that I would do with my clients, which I’ve gotten out of was, I wanted them to understand data points, and you have to eat. As a provider, you realize you want to give them realistic sustainable health tips that aren’t hard to implement, and are gonna just end up being abandoned. And when you’re tracking your macros, and you’re doing all these little things, it’s overwhelming. So I like the concept of understanding what you normally have, and back it down a little bit, making sure that you’re not getting so many calories in the free sugars, and combining that with fat. I like that concept. I also like the idea of where Mrs. Jones, it doesn’t mean we want you to be necessarily that keto, ketogenic person that’s on a really heavy keto diet, remember, what’s your number one problem, remember that people lose sight of that, like, what’s not working for you. For this person, it might be their brain fog, it might be their joint pain for this person, they want to lose weight and have a couple of other goals in mind as well. They’re their sex hormones, or they’re losing their hair. So always come down to why like, what’s not working for you? And what do you want to address? And if you know, as you had with that epiphany moment that your blood sugar is at the center stage and that stress and cortisol have a major part to play in it. But what you put in your mouth has even more of an important part, then it’s not necessarily okay, you just need to eat high fats, you need to be aware of what carbs are doing, and make sure that you’re not scared of healthy fats. And you’re aware of what spikes are happening to your glucose and how everything comes together. I guess the question when you say, keep it below 50. It’s kind of like slipping that in there. Oh, yeah. And like, you’re going from like, what? You had no idea you were at probably 200 Plus, go down to 50? Like, how do you sort of finagle that? How do you get someone to get in the role or law? Endorse or embrace what you’re teaching? But wait a minute, run that back? Me by me again? You’re 50? Like, what? How do I get there? Like, tell me, tell me how you do that?   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah, so in my program, blood sugar mastery I use, I created something called the blood sugar diet roadmap. And so you kind of find out where you are on that spectrum. And this has a lot to do with how many carbs you’re eating. And typically, if you’re on some sort of a standard American diet, or what I call the conscious, standard American diet, this might be the person with the Diet Coke and the whole wheat bread. Chances are you’re eating very high carbs, probably somewhere around 150 or 200. And, right? And so what I have people do is systematically remove certain things to work their way towards eating whole real foods, because, for some people, they can just be like, oh, yeah, I’ll go paleo. Overnight, no problem. A lot of people have very busy lives, you know, nutrition doesn’t come super easily to them, they have to change their whole lifestyle and routine and cook and the kids eat something different and whatever. So we do this systematically. So first, we’ll take out vegetable oils, because they’re highly toxic, and they cause tons of problems. We’ll work on taking out gluten like these things are a big change a big shift in people’s diets, we work on taking out regular sugars, and then those artificial ones and then the nonnutritive ones that people use all the time, like monk fruit and stevia and allulose. Because they keep the palate trained towards wanting a sweet taste. They make us think that food sugar is coming. They drive hunger, they drive cravings, and then they secrete a little bit of insulin. So anyone who has reactive hypoglycemia is going to want to stay away from those. But we work our way through the different food categories like that. And then eventually, they get to a place where they’re eating whole real foods. And chances are, they’re slowly lowering their number of carbohydrates until they’re like, Oh, I’m eating, you know, a steak, broccoli, and a half a sweet potato at my meal. Great. That’s a really good meal for so many people. And then eventually, if you know, depending on their goals, depending on what they’re struggling with, we might say like, okay, maybe we’re going to swap that sweet potato for half an avocado instead. And so that’s how we, you know, progress, but it’s all individualized. So like you said, I’m not going to put everyone on a ketogenic diet. Not everyone needs it, but a lot of people cannot burn fat for fuel. And that is a powerful tool for restoring that part of their metabolism. And then they can be able to tolerate carbohydrates again, like me, so I’m not always in ketosis at all. I was not in ketosis for a long time, but I still crave ketones all the time. So I can eat, go out to eat and have, you know, mango, I can have ice cream if I’m on vacation or something. The next day I woke up, I’m still in ketosis, even though I’m not doing a strict ketogenic diet. And to me, that’s showing that my metabolism is flexible. I could burn fats, I could burn glucose and I go back to being able to burn fats between meals to sustain me I can fast if I want to, even though I don’t like to practice it all the time, just because my body’s like, Oh, she’s not eating. Okay, we’ll just, you know, eat a little from, you know, her underarm or something like that. And it’s just it. Yeah, that’s kind of where I want to get my clients to, in terms.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think that’s a good point is that that paradigm shift in the person’s brain is, is that it’s, you’re gonna have to teach your body how to burn another alternative fuel source that is engineered for you that ultimately, you’re only you’re gonna have to do one way or the other. If you want to solve your blood sugar and or fill-in-the-blank problem, that’s going to be something you’re going to need to accept. I liked the other idea too, that with the monk fruit, and the other sweeteners, to not even do it, I, I would even say the CLI like once you learn how to make that paradigm shift of burning another fuel source, you’re not going to have the cravings to have flavored water, or you’re not going to need to have that iced tea sweetened that you’re not going to feel like you need that you have this other fuel source that’s keeping you stable throughout the day that you’re not going to feel that way. As far as one of the things that I wanted to ask you about is the difference between real hypoglycemia, and resistance because a lot of people don’t realize that right? Where I think there’s a cluster of both. And in your case, at the beginning, where you were secreting a lot of insulin, your cells were not resistant, and they were causing a major drop of your glucose and that was the shaky and, and needing something to eat and whatever can accompany that. But a lot of the clients that I work with, are not hypoglycemic, right? They’ve long passed that insulin response, where they’re in the 60s, they haven’t seen like, lower than 100, since like the Clinton years, you know what I mean? Like, they haven’t gotten down there, but they’re like, Oh, I’m hypoglycemic, I gotta eat small meals more frequently. So tell maybe educate the listeners on that? And how to overcome that.   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah. So that I tell people, you can feel the symptoms of hypoglycemia at any number. And what I find is that the people who are having true hypoglycemia, they’re less further along in the progression of it. And it’s easier to resolve than the people who are having these perceived lows in the 80s 90s, hundreds, etc, even upwards up to 200. I’ve heard someone say, and then like a Facebook group, she’s like, if I go below 200, I feel like I’m gonna pass out. It’s just wild to me. So usually, you’re bordering on the pre-diabetic side at that time, and there’s a lot more insulin resistance when you’re not having these true lows, and you’re having what they call postprandial syndrome, which is where that’s, that’s the best I could find when I look things up. But basically, the treatment is the same. The problem is that people, so the thing with hypoglycemia is that we want to get the insulin down, we want to get and oftentimes, neither of these groups, the ones with the true lows are the ones with the feeling low in the normal range. Neither of them can fast. So we can’t use fasting to get down the insulin, which is a wonderful tool for that. A lot of them can’t exercise because their adrenals are so shot and because a lot of them have pots. And then a lot of them have electrolyte issues. So they’re all minerally deficient, because there, you know, their adrenals have been working over time. Some of them are in the stages of like high cortisol, and some of them have some sort of weird dysregulation or really low cortisol, but we need to get that insulin down in all of them. So we have to, and for a lot of people, the best sort of therapeutic tool is a ketogenic diet because they have so their met metabolisms are so fixed on burning sugar. After all, the high insulin levels are blocking the body from using the stored sugar or the stored body fat so they can’t access their reserves. So they have to be dependent on eating every few hours. So the way that I’ve found to help both of these groups is to give them fat, most of them the advice out there, if you are getting advice, that’s not just an anti-anxiety medication, is to have a lean protein and a complex carbohydrate. That is horrible advice. If you have been told that and they say eat every few hours, just eat a protein and a complex carb. That’s just good. It’s just spiking your blood sugar over and over and over again. It’s not helping, it’s going to make you worse if it has made you worse. That’s why. So we need fats. And a lot of my people who are sensitive to these crashes, either group, they will say, I make these posts on Instagram that says like, these are fat, these are the proteins that will spike your blood sugar. And these are the proteins that might cause blood sugar crashes, and people and people are adding me they’re like really tuna egg whites are my protein powder, you have to have the fat coming with the protein, I swear there’s something about it, you can’t add enough fat for some of these people, they have that lean protein, a chicken breast, egg whites, protein powder, tuna, turkey slices, they instantly crash. It’s just too insulin genic, when the fat comes with the protein, there’s something extremely stabilizing about that. And I’ve had, I don’t know the full science of it. But when it comes together naturally, it’s super powerful. One of my students was like, if I have a steak, I sleep perfectly through the night, you know, like, it just is really powerful. So we need to get fat in them to stabilize the blood sugar, and we need to start introducing some of these hacks. And we need to, you know, we’re eating the carbs last we’re not having naked cards, we’re not correcting lows unless they’re very, very, very intense and severe. We’re not correcting them with carbs, we do not type one diabetic. So a lot of times, they’re like all these people taking glucose tablets to bump their blood sugar back up, a glucose tablet and a non-type one diabetic, does not bring your blood sugar up, it brings her blood sugar up and then down. So you’re in the same place as you started. So that’s important to keep in mind because you’re gonna get more, you’re just introducing more insulin into a system that already has too much insulin. So what I found in these two groups of people, I don’t know, the full, I don’t have a full understanding of what’s going on, I just know that the treatment is the same for both groups, but that the group that has that’s more progressed, where they’re, you know, feeling these lows when they’re in the 80s and 90s. Hundreds, it just takes them a lot longer. Because it’s already been progressing that much longer. So and then usually, though, they may have a diagnosis of pre-diabetes. So again, it’s been that, but that’s just, you know, a random number.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And I’m great information. Danielle, I agree 100%. And I would tell people that it’s been going on longer, you know that you’re not able to get it lower than most times 100. And I hate the term pre-diabetes, that’s like saying, a little bit pregnant, you know, like, it’s, you’re already there, you’re already in the arena, the metabolic changes have already happened, or are already in progress. So really, great information for sure. As far as the science goes, what I think happens is your body is so like Plinko chips go down one pathway. And it doesn’t go down this way, as soon and I think I don’t know if this is even a term but you’re free to use it, as you said naked carbs. What about naked proteins? Right? So naked proteins, if they’re going down, and they’re getting naked proteins, it automatically goes down that that Plinko pathway into glycolysis. And if you’re pairing it with, with what’s occurring in nature, with how we were designed, and it’s unadulterated and it’s got good, healthy, marbleized fat in there, then you don’t go down that that Plinko that train tracks sort of switches to the other side and says oh, we can go down into, you know, into Krebs cycle into oxidative phosphorylation. And that’s really what I teach my clients. Listen, at the end of the day, I hate the term adrenal fatigue. And I even hate the term HPA Axis dysfunction. I just like the concept that you have a demand and supply problem. You’re not combining the food you eat with the air you breathe into ATP and water. That’s it. That’s it. And what you’re doing is you’re creating energy from burning as you talk about like just burning the kindling and the paper and the twigs and the branches. And you want to ignite that log. And that requires what you’re teaching. So kudos to you on that for sure. As far as any other clinical pearls that you can share with us in terms of you know when you do the CGM s or you’re looking at the glucose ketone index, or even I picked this up at the place the other day was the Yeah, the AST is, you know, with with the breath meter to measure your ketones, you’re into tracking what kind of quick clinical hacks or tools do you have you seen with your demographic?   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah, so one of the things I like to share is that you know, your doctor gets a lot of things wrong when it comes to blood. are they’re not trained properly, they’re not trained, they’re not paid educated to do any sort of prevention or anything, because if you think about it, the only tools that they have are Metformin, and drugs and insulin, and that you can only give that when someone’s reached a certain level of blood sugar. So once their blood sugar gets maybe over 100, then it’s like, Oh, time for Metformin. But before then, they don’t have any way to help you. So as your blood sugar keeps rising, it’ll be like 9890 901 to one, they’re like, let’s just watch it. That’s the advice that doctors give imagine, someone came to you and paid you money, and you’re like, let’s just watch this. It’s like, that’s not advice that’s not doing your job. So they get things wrong. So ideally, the fasting range that I like to use with my clients is between 70 and 85 milligrams per deciliter. If you’re outside of the US, you can divide those numbers by 18, to get the millimoles. So 70 to 85 is a really good range. But again, you have to feel good at that range. So if you feel like you’re hypoglycemic, when you’re hitting, you know, 85, that’s not a good range for you, it’s okay to have it a little bit higher as you do the work. But you want to see it come down over time. When we use continuous glucose monitors, or we can even use finger prick monitors, we want to make sure our blood sugar isn’t rising over maybe 30 milligrams per deciliter at a meal, that’s 1.6 millimoles, I believe. And so we want to keep them like very stable, you know, a not a sharp spike up, not a sharp spike down. That’s what we’re gonna get, feel all those symptoms, it could be as it’s going up, it could be at the peak of when it is. So I experimented, I ate a naked carb, I had a green apple, which a lot of people, you know, ask 95% of the United States of America would say that’s a healthy snack, not for me, you and I probably wouldn’t say that, because it’s a naked carb, for the most part, it’s gonna it’s spiked my blood sugar over 30. And then, right when it hit that peak on my continuous glucose monitor, I was craving carbs like crazy, my stomach had that empty feeling where I don’t know, like, you could almost like feel the borders of your stomach. I was like, Oh my gosh, I want to eat something so badly. I hate this experiment. So it can be happening kind of anywhere on the glucose curve. Some people will connect the high points of their blood sugar to certain headaches they get or certain anxiety feeling that they might feel. For some people, it’s more like as it’s coming down, they start that’s when they get hangry. They get cravings, they get irritable. So putting a glucose monitor on is so powerful for connecting how you feel with what your blood sugar is doing because it opens this window into what’s going on inside. So you can feel like oh my goodness, I always thought that was because of XYZ, and I didn’t realize it was my blood sugar. I didn’t realize this food or my coffee. I switched to decaf. Coffee spikes my blood sugar big-time and makes me hypoglycemic. So I just, I don’t do it. I just do, you know, a little bit of caffeine tiny bit. And so you can figure out what foods are your kryptonite, and which ones you might want to avoid or even minimize, because sometimes the poisons in the dose, like beets are beautifully healthy food. They’re so good for your gallbladder, there’s they have so many benefits. And you know, someone on a ketogenic diet might be like, Oh, I can’t have beets because it’s too sugary. It’s a root vegetable, you can have a few of them, right? Like you can have a few bites, maybe at each meal, you have a few bites at each meal. And that’s all you have those your carbs for the day or whatever. But we can have these different things, you could just learn your threshold. And so I also use ketone testing as well. If I’m doing ketosis and I use a finger prick meter for that. And it’s really important. If you’re doing keto, that you’re testing your blood or your breath, not using the urine strips, they don’t give you enough information. But I can’t tell you how many people I just one of my new students, she’s like, I was doing keto for three years, but I don’t think I was ever in ketosis because I never got any of the benefits or lost weight. That’s a waste of my time. Like you’re what happens if you’re not getting into ketosis is that you’re lowering your carbs and you get stuck in a state called Low Carb purgatory. I got that from Sean miner. And low carb purgatory is when your only fuel sources are carbs because you’re insulin resistant, and you don’t have access to burning body fat yet. And so you lower your only fuel source, but you’re not yet burning body fat and ketones. So you have this much fuel, you have a tiny, tiny bit of fuel, which are a few carbs you’re eating, so you’re gonna feel tired, you’re probably going to put on weight, you’re not going to feel good. So you want to make sure that if you’re going for keto, you get there in a slow way and that you prepare your body for it. Make sure you’re digesting your fat, you’re feeling good eating those higher levels of fat, then, like, you know, break the barrier. Just go for keto, but make sure you test to make sure you’re in there. So Jeff rarely points five to 3.0 millimoles. I heard from Ben Azadi point eight to 3.0, in terms of getting the benefits you want, so just make sure you’re making ketones and that you’re in ketosis and then your blood sugar. That’s the cool part. When I’m in ketosis, my blood sugar can go low. Be in the 60s, if I’m fasting sometimes could go into the 50s. That was a while ago, I haven’t done a long fast but the 60s 70s 50s are No problem because I’m just fueled by fat. So it can go low. And a lot of healing can happen during that time.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s good. Good insight. I like the idea of switching the idea of going keto diet. It is more in terms of when interviewing Dorian from keto Mojo is more of a Keto lifestyle or your goal is to gain flexibility by having your body produce ketones. It creates a whole different image versus I’m eating ketogenic, right, because then you’re denying the physiological metabolic switch that you’re looking to attain. That doesn’t necessarily have to be with an absurd amount of dirty type. keto things, right?   Danielle Hamilton: So six a butter. Yeah, tons of bacon bars, like it doesn’t need to be that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So awesome information and just respect for your time, because I know we both got to hop here, what would you have done differently if you were doing what you know, now, if you could have switched things up?   Danielle Hamilton: So I’m in terms of my healing, or before I ever healed? Like maybe, as in my childhood.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Would be of like an aha, that you know, now that you didn’t know, then that at any point in time you wish you would have done differently? I guess that would be more specific.   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah, I guess I wish I would have known what these blood sugar symptoms were, I wish I would have known to pay attention to my blood sugar because I feel like my life would have been well, I mean, I wouldn’t be here where I am, but my life would have been vastly different. And I would have prevented a lot of, you know, suffering and hardships. Because the other thing, another thing I always forget to say, because, on Instagram, they will flag your account is that sugar, it impacts the immune system, I almost forget it because I’m not allowed to say it on Instagram, because I’ll get flagged or get my account taken away. So this is another thing I had all those immune struggles for so long. And so obviously, you know, the sugar, it just like, is like kicking your immune system in the crotch. And so when I was eating all these high sugar foods, it was doing a number on that. And that was a big issue for me. So I think knowing what sugar blood sugar did to my body would be what I would choose.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, like having that you know, the Seinfeld issue where you bring everything together at the end where you now look back and not just take what you’re doing for granted in terms of it’s healthy, and sort of understand that all the things that you put in your mouth and all the thoughts that you have and all the activities and movements and self-healing stuff that you do go a long way for not just controlling your blood glucose but for keeping your physiology humming and extending lifespan and health span and so forth. So so the best way to get in contact with you and follow you is I know you’re all over social media. Where can the listeners find you?   Danielle Hamilton: Yeah, I hang out a lot on Instagram at Danielle Hamilton Health. My podcast unlocked the sugar shackles and you find that anywhere. And my website’s Danielle Hamilton help.com. And my blood sugar mastery course comes out several times a year. So I’ll be sending you the waitlist info for that because the next round is going to start in September 2022. So that’s all those things that I was talking about all those strategies, we go over all of those in depth in the program to help sort of walk you through it. If that’s something you’re interested in.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Well, listen, thanks for your time. Thanks for your information and good things wish good things to you in the future. And I look forward to connecting with you real soon. Yeah, thanks, Dr. Joe. The post Blood Sugar Coach Reveals Strategies to Adopt That Balance Your Blood Sugar Every Time appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition about the truth about your health podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt out adults the truth about their health so they can get their health back quickly. And what a privilege it is to work to talk to Dr. Joseph Anton today, he is the CEO and Chairman of the Board of L Neutre, a unique nutrient nutrient tech company leading the food as medicine movement by applying cutting edge sciences and nutrition research than the first uncover what humans should eat to live healthier longer. And second, to help patients achieve better health outcomes. He is the chairman of the board at the Global healthspan Policy Institute, and is a member of Forbes business developmental council. So Dr. Joseph, thank you so much for being here.   Joseph Antoun: Yeah, thank you for hosting me, Dr. Chill. And hopefully, in the next 45 minutes, we’ll change somebody’s life.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I know you, we will. And I know you have your own personal story. And maybe let’s take our listener through that so that they can identify with maybe what you how you got into what you got into and then we could really talk about the ABCs and the x, y Z’s of too fast or not too fast, and why it’s important in longevity. So maybe you start with your story.   Joseph Antoun: Well, thank you, I started as a as I always had the passion to help patients, I wanted to become a physician, which is how I started my professional professional career with and I wanted to be a cardiologist in doing my rotations. And I did those at Harvard measure a hospital that was like, you know, I’m being taught to mainly, diagnose, meet a patient meet somebody after they’re sick. So was practicing sick care rather than healthcare, then give them a diagnosis and then put them on different pills that they have to take for the rest of their life. I felt that medicine has done a great job stabilizing us after we get sick. But I have but I didn’t feel that it was curing most of these patients. And I definitely felt bad meeting them after a heart attack after they get blood pressure, etc. And most importantly, I felt that I always had that question to my attendings. It was like if the if this pill works, why they have to refill it every month, right? That was that was my biggest question is like, it’s a subscription forever for your blood pressure pill, it’s a subscription forever for your blood sugar pill. It’s a subscription forever for your cholesterol pill. In looking at that patient like I was, it’s not difficult to figure out what happened to him, he’s getting older, it’s difficult for him to get the weight off. He has more responsibility as a father now or as a mother. And then he’s financially stressed and you gotta talk about his lifestyle have him go back to exercise to eating healthy, to sleeping better to, to cherish that love that family love. And this is what today’s lifestyle medicine that I’m cherishing so much and I’m a big part of so I decided to leave medicine after I graduated and go into health balls in public health did Harvard and Hopkins in it my goal was to reform healthcare systems to be more preventive, and to adopt lifestyle medicine. In and I hit a bump there i i helped actually have a successful career helping you know, 10s of countries internationally and ministers of health, but the bump was always that prevention was never productized people love to consume they don’t love to hear the same thing over and over meaning you’re telling people as a preventive tool to exercise to eat healthy to stop smoking. And everyone knows that like by today there’s no it’s no news to anyone that challenges and micro timing namely daily basis if I see a burger in front of me and a phrase and I’m hungry I’m gonna just be tempted right? If I’m tired after working nine hours and or 12 hours or 16 hours I’m not gonna go to the gym late at night. So how can we turn healthy behavior into a product and then that became my goal because then they can consume health we can all consume health and therefore stay healthy. In this is where I decided to to to learn how to develop health care products, and to launch them in and and I joined the biotech industry and learn that and then finally started looking for a true preventive slash lifestyle medicine product that can keep us healthy for healthy longer and if we’re sick, given alternatives to the pill industry. And, and nutrition became my passion because it’s the only product we consume every day. From the day we’re born to the day we die, it must carry the biggest impact on our body, right? It’s the only thing you can think about it that we consume every day, every day of our life. And I felt that the power of nutrition should go beyond I lose weight or not beyond eating gluten free or low carb, or it should be even healing, it should be a longevity track. And, and I was blessed and lucky to meet Professor Valter Longo. Many of you’re probably listeners have heard of that name. Valter is the leading figure in nutrition and longevity. And he uses food as medicine and his research and fell in love with what he had, which is an approach to pharmaceutical approach to nutrition he was it took the long route, he took 25 years to do lab trials, mice trial, human trials on food, which no one has, in a sense of the many companies are few companies would have but in a sense of trying to reduce disease readmission, trying to help people live longer, and measure that rather than just build correlates or add some minerals, or just a better ingredient. It was going for food formulations that can help people live healthier model or help them with their disease regression, and being the first and becoming the Buddhist medicine. So I fell in love with that mission. And then is the head of the longevity Institute at University of Southern California. He can have he and USC spin-off Nutra and invited me to come and become a CEO of a company. And it’s in this position that I’m talking to you today.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, listen, there’s so many bubbles that go off in my head that we could take sidetracks to and maybe part two and part three to the podcast. So I’ll ask a question in a succinct way. Without going too down that rabbit hole was one of the reasons that you decided to leave medicine and go into longevity and and food as medicine and adopting the pharmaceutical approach to food was that that wasn’t going to be a very short or very, I guess obstructed path or a path that wouldn’t have worked in the allopathic model, or do you feel that at some point that it’s going to be embraced? I guess it’s a hard question to ask because it’s not it’s it’s a it’s a it’s a tough question to take on in terms of, there’s a way of practicing medicine, and that doesn’t involve certain tools and certain adjunctive approaches. So let me ask you just sort of, uh, without going too deep into that. Why did yeah, the I don’t know if you understand if there’s a question in there or not.   Joseph Antoun: But I love answering that was my, the core of my passion. Well, basically, if you think if you think about the the top four disease that will kill 90%, because 90% of us will die from either cardiovascular or diabetes, which is part of big cardiovascular, cancer, Alzheimer’s, and, you know, autoimmune, the natural term killers. These are the four or five conditions that 90% of us will die for. Now, what medicine myth is that actually, to a big extent, these conditions are related to lifestyle and aging. Medicine thought us and I went to the best medical schools, Madison thought, oh, there’s genetic predisposition, something goes wrong. And then you develop a disease. Well, if you have the April EEG, you’re still not going to have time at his age. At age 20. You’re going to still have it at 75 and 80 and 85. At night. If your mother and father had cardiovascular disease, you’re not gonna die from atrial fibrillation at age 80. You can still do heart attack, say But at age 5570, etc. So, yes, of course genetics play a role. But in that was that’s very clear in diabetes. You look at the pictures of our ancestors in the 50s and 40s. And they were not obese. They were not dying out of diabetes at that time. So it’s genetics. Why didn’t they have diabetes, why they will not obese right now. We look at many of us so many people, as 73% of us are overweight. And a lot of still healthcare professionals explain that with genetics where their parents their grandparents would not overweight. The grand grandparents were super skinny. Look at the pictures of the US villages in the US cities back in 19 2019. Fall in 1860. You don’t see fat people very rarely. So. So it became obvious to me that what matters sent told us Oh, there’s one pathway going wrong cholesterol increase because there’s a disease called hypercholesterolemia and it’s genetics. Well guess what, eight out of 10. People with high cholesterol actually are overweight, it’s not genetics, they were overweight, they’re eating a healthy, unhealthy habit, and don’t exercise any longer. So it was clear, that is definitely a big role for medicine. But that also will be 20. And 30% of the care 60 70% of the care is solvable by slowing down aging. And we’re going to talk a lot about that, because that was my biggest aha moment. You know, even if we’re safe, if the biggest, the biggest reason for you to have a heart attack and or a cancer and or diabetes, and Alzheimer’s is actually your age. And number two is your lifestyle. And then comes genetics and everything else. So so it’s clear, that meant that there’s a role for the pill industry and the pharmaceutical and I’m the big proponent of that. But it should not be 100% of sick care. It shouldn’t be 1020 30%, Max and 6070 80%, of a new healthcare model should be built on lifestyle medicine, meaning how can I slow down your biological age, because this is how it can happen. Even if you’re 60s, if your inner age is 50, you just gained 10 extra years before you hit your first heart attack, or before you hit your first Alzheimer’s etc. So how can I keep you healthier from the inside? And how can I help you with your lifestyle, eat better exercise, stress less, sleep better. And then, and then increase your social capital and the love around you. And that became my passion. So my big aha moment was that a big chunk of what’s going to end up killing us one of these four diseases could be prevented or slowed down, or even remit. You know, by lifestyle medicine. My biggest example is diabetes. I love bringing up diabetes, right? So the idea is 90% of diabetes, you get it from overweight, there’s type one that is probably RMU, a little bit of genetics, okay, that’s the minority. And then you have the type two, and the biggest reason for type two is overweight. So if somebody comes in and, and, and, and punches you on the head, every two seconds, how can you have a headache? What’s the solution? He said, stop punching me. If you go and exercise over over exercise, and you’re exhausted, what’s the solution? You say? Give me a rest stop the exercise. If somebody comes in over feeds you and now you have diabetes, what’s the solution? Why this time is not stop stop eating or so that is suddenly the solution is insulin and metformin. Why in this case, we don’t take the trigger of the disease. And I see a lot of doctors and a lot of nutritionists say, Wow, you can reverse diabetes with food. I mean, that’s that’s the reason you have diabetes, the only solution or the best solution that I don’t want to be super limited. But the best solution for that abuse is by fasting and or eating healthy and or burning more fat with exercise. That’s the solution for the abs. Now giving somebody insulin, which by the way, pushes sugar doesn’t vanish. Sugar doesn’t vanish from the blood, it goes to your cells, it gets stored into more fat, it increased more insulin resistance, and now you need more insulin. So most of the diabetic medicine we’ve had two today the accelerated disease that’s that’s that’s one of that’s that’s an important you know, thing to realize. You know, God bless that industry. They’re trying to do their best with what what’s given, but it’s not it’s not. It’s not the fault of the farmer, like most people say ignore the fault of the doctors is the fault of a system that is accepted to just pay when it’s late and paid to just kick the ball forward. And I go back to health policy and public health we should go back and push lifestyle medicine which is happening today. A lot of reimbursement is coming for an attrition for programs that that really helped people conduct a much better life. They came very late after the financial crisis in healthcare. But that’s the way to move forward. And in this is what became my passion is how can we create this new discipline called Lifestyle Medicine? Give every physician every nutritionist new tools to help with disease remission and regression if somebody has cancer I mean, can you imagine today? If God forbid, may God forbid if you have if your wife gets diagnosed tomorrow with breast cancer, there is no food regimen that she can use to improve her chances of regression from a disease we never we eat food every day. No one scientific company came and say what you should eat to help her remit from the from her cancer. If you have Alzheimer’s with like good luck. There’s no medicine for it. Sorry. Your dad is is old, and now he has Alzheimer’s like what? What kind of answer is that? How can I feed his brain in a better way so that the normal cells overperform, so that the cells that started getting damaged, they tried to rejuvenate and stay healthier. So we never respected food enough as part of the disease mitigation or regression or remission or cure. And this is what the passion and the mission of our company we’re called L Neutre. L is for longevity through nutrition. And we are we are proud to be the first Nutri tech company like the biotech industry with a nutrient nutrition technology industry. We put we put evidence based scientific approach to discover what people should eat, if they have cancer, what they should eat, if they have Alzheimer’s, what they should eat the regress and remain diabetes. And if they’re healthy, what they should eat to stay healthy long. This is exactly my passion and the mission of our company.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, kudos to you and great summary of that. Of what my guess is that I obstacles and you just redefine. Usher, embraced it and scan doubt and fear to how to support a new movement for longevity medicine, sponsoring a 4am groups where I met you where you’re educating doctors, and ultimately driving policy change through leading by example, and creating the protocols and the outcomes and forcing the traditional allopathic approach to take notice and take heed versus continuing to knock on the door in the vehicle that you’re in and not making progress. So kudos for you for doing that. I had the opportunity of meeting you at that a forum where you were offering a fasting certification, I was fascinated with the information. I will say as a as the traditional. As a chiropractic trained physician, we learned nutrition and the importance of food and lifestyle medicine in our curriculum. So it’s really nice to see the allopathic model. Embrace that now. And I’m excited to see where it’s headed. As far as I know, we have a lot of ground to make up on Aging, longevity healthspan. As it relates to the people that that we work with, and you you painted the picture pretty well where the guy comes home after a nine hour day he’s got financial issues, not as or Messrs. Not as the IV is under constant stress. He’s not out in the environment, he’s not in the best diet, he has that burger and french fries in front of him. And that with identify as HPA axis, or an adrenal based fatigue issue, where they’ve been told that they shouldn’t moderate their their food or fast or go into time restricted eating windows or do long prolonged eating, because their blood sugar is unstable. And they’ve got to eat multiple meals more frequently. So maybe we can get into the conversation of who’s it for? Why is it safe? How do you go about doing it? What are all the different tools that I should be considering and just you kind of being the expert that you are kind of run with the ball now that you that we’re going in this area?   Joseph Antoun: Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. I mean, you know, we’ve, when I went to med school, it was it was in the same time and nutrition schools. It was the the the the word on the street was eat five and six times a day, right small meals, and frequent eating, which which probably was was a disaster of a recommendation. And we see the results today, you know, obesity still increases then. And this is for many reasons. I mean, the this is it’s important now to talk a little bit about nutrition and aging. In every time we eat, especially the carbs, the carbs increase insulin, right, that insulin, insulin gets secreted when you eat carbs, because it wants to move, you know carbs from the blood to the to the cell so that the cells use them. But it’s a growth factor. Everything that says growth, it means it’s a pro-aging. So if you grow forward, we grow by our challenge forward, we don’t grow backward with with incidence. Same thing, and this is very important here is to talk about the role of protein as well because people think carbs are bad. Everything related to protein is good. That’s not true. Protein, like carbs, they are a pro-growth factor, these two, these two nutrients, they come to our body to nourish us and they’re We love them we go forward we, we grow when we have them. So we need insulin, insulin like growth factor, IGF one increases in It’s not by chance that is called insulin like growth factor. So it’s exactly like insulin, it pushes you to grow. So the more frequently you’re eating, the more you’re spiking your more frequently to growth factors, insulin and IGF. And the more you are growing forward, meaning you’re aging in biological aging, I mean, people have to start thinking about biological aging completely separate than your age. That doesn’t matter today, if you’re 50, or 60, or 70. What matters is how old are you from the inside? What’s your biological age? And that’s, that’s huge. And why is that huge, because, as we said, before, disease that will kill us, diabetes, cancer, cardiovascular and autoimmune. They actually, especially diabetes, cardiovascular, cancer, and neurodegenerative, they are actually perfectly age-related. You get your first heart attack at later stages in life, you get Alzheimer’s and dementia later stage of your life. And most cancers, some of the cancers younger we can talk about why the stimuli there but in most cases, all these disease and diabetes are get at a later stage in life. So if there’s the best gift I can give you today, to stay healthy long and to ask for years to few healthy years to your life is to delay or reversing your biological age. And this is why we moved to fasting because this is one of the ways to do that. Versus eating all the time. Every time you eat. And guess what, as religiously eat six times a day is the bodybuilders today, right? Why? Because they have to grow talking and grow their muscle. In bodybuilders eat very high meat, protein, you know, concentrations within every meal they eat six times a day. And look what happens. Most bodybuilders actually lose around five to 10 years of their life. You have you ever seen a centenarian somebody who’s 100 years and above and said I was I used to be a bodybuilder I used to be Mr. Olympia. Unfortunately, we lost Ronnie Coleman at age 55. We lose many of the of the big giants or the big ones. And really the giants who have they actually have an overstimulated natural overstimulation of IGF or growth hormone. So either by eating frequently per day, or by having a disease that secretes high IGF or growth hormone and both of these people, athletes and people with acromegaly, they actually have 10 years less than average in their lifestyle. So this proves what I’m saying is that the more you spike, insulin, and IGF, the more you’re aging, the more you’re aging, the faster so you’ll be 60 chronologically, but you’re 70 biologically therefore you’re going to hit cancer, you’re going to hit Alzheimer’s, you’re going to hit diabetes, and this is how you’re going to induce shortivity rather than longevity. So this is critical for everyone today we did say hopefully we’re going to change somebody’s life. Eating frequently every day probably is not a longevity a healthy longevity matter. The opposite. We are one of the we’re going to bring a lot of information today but one if I want one info to kind of be transmitted to your listeners is that always think about in the natural harmonized way of eating in lifestyle are we at the end of the day we as humans lived on planet Earth for hundreds of 1000s of years and we were culture when we evolve with nature and nature’s culture, cultures plus, in why we why we we started developing chronic disease faster the last 4050 years because we deviated from nature. We started eating more frequently than we can handle we started exercising less than we started creating stresses of living in the cities and technology etc. We started like we started expressing less love and social capital because we’re away from our families. We’re getting divorced fast. So once we deviated from this harmonized way of how we used to live is where we started developing a lot of or accelerating aging in these chronic diseases. So every time somebody preaches you because every day you go on YouTube, they 600 theories about what you should eat how you should exercise, which is a Keto Is it is it all meat diet, always go back and say no to all of them say I’m gonna go back and eat what I’m supposed to eat. We as humans lived around the rivers all our life. Forget about the cavemen we slept in a cave so that we don’t get bit by an animal but there’s no food, no water in the cave. We lived around rivers. Why? Because River is the water you can drink and without drinking water. There was essential and there were trees and grass so they were fruits and vegetables. And there’s what we ate plant based diet. It was easy to fish for She’s the only animal that cannot fly or run away, or it was very easy to fish. So we were having a pescetarian diet, we were eating a lot of plant based foods rich in lagoons and fruit and fruits, and then we were eating fish as a main source of protein. Then we develop hunting skills, and we started adding some red meat. So the longevity diet, if you want to eat the healthy diet for your longevity is literally a pescetarian slash flexitarian some red meat. And guess what, when the sun was done, we would sleep there was no TV no UberEATS so we were not eating overnight. Up until the morning when we were up, if we have some food left overs, it will be like breakfast if not we go and search for food. So that’s why have hours of fasting overnight fasting was very important. It we call it the circadian fasting, right, our our it’s not just our brain that needs to sleep but also over in the gut, every organ in the body should not be indigestion in, in in absorbing sugar and protein during the night and going into fat. We should have an early meal and then sleep and stay 12 hours, 13 hours. That’s the longevity of these 12 hours intermittent fasting pescatarian and a little bit of meat, which makes it you know, flexitarian a little bit more it will make it Mediterranean. And that’s a harmonized way to eat. To me, anything else is an artificial imposition to your body. Now, you might accept it if you have a health condition. So if you tell me, Hey, I have diabetes, my first first concern is not to live in extra 20 years in 20 years. My first concern is today to reverse diabetes. Yeah, go on a low-carb diet, try ketogenic diet, try the fasting-mimicking diet. So then you have interventions that are dealing with a short term purpose. But if you’re healthy, you want to live healthy, long, intermittent fasting plus the longevity diet that I described, is the right formulation for that it’s not eating six or eight times a day.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s a it’s a great overview of where we got to and I would add the light bulb as well, right, because that really messed up our circadian rhythm, and extended the seasons. And also just the the processing and the adulteration of our food quality, on top of all of that, so we have all these hurdles and obstacles that are growth factor, environmental stimuli on top of the food we eat, and makes it even more important to to balance the Yin with the Yang and that’s where cleansing, a tough energy clearing out removing and being able to harness the way inborn physiology has been has been evolving through the millennia. So So I know there’s a lot so I guess with the fasting-mimicking diet, maybe you can talk about the different tools that that l nutrition teaches and and the utility or the value in each of them and and help someone that’s listening to this say, okay, I can I can accept what you’re telling me. How do I go about doing this?   Joseph Antoun: Yeah. So we as a company, we invested heavily into two tracks the longevity diet that we just described, meaning eating a clean, healthy longevity diet, we call it nutrition for longevity, it’s a full company under us. And, and nutrition for longevity, we deliver the food to you, one of the cleanest food we even on our farms, and it’s a longevity formulation. And it follows the American Heart American Diabetes Association food. So this is food for everyday that we can send you home. And now, Medicare and Medicaid gave us a reimbursement code to be one of the first food as medicine companies. And within five months, we have 43 health insurances that signed us to pay for our food as medicine. So that’s that’s a huge if you want step forward for us into showing the world that we know how to formulate food that is healthy for you and payers are willing to pay for it. But the landmark discovery that we are known for is fasting and the fasting-mimicking technology. And why is that so? So? So 25 years ago, our founder Professor Valter Longo, I recommend him you know, if you guys want to buy his book, which describes what I’m going to talk about, it’s called the longevity 2018 Amazon bestseller amazing book, but our founder discovered at USC, he’s the head of the longevity Institute at the University of Southern California. So basically he and USC discovered that there’s two types of fasting. There is the first thing that I talked about 12 hours, 14 hours, 16 hours, which is It creates a calorie deficits in the body and therefore you lose weight, right or you balance your weight, if you fast for 12 hours, you’re balancing you eat over the day, during the day, you can if you don’t eat during the night, so, you know, calories in calories spent, You’re equal, it’s a good balance to go for 16 hours, maybe you’re losing a little bit more calories if you have some weight. So you go a little bit for that. But it’s still, it’s a weight balancing, it’s a calorie black balancing intermittent fasting followed. What universalism California and now 18 other universities are researching is what happens if you go longer, what happens if you fast for two days, three days, four days, five days, and they discovered something very important, which is, once you’ve crossed the two, because they want to data, you have enough fat in your body to compensate for the deficit, the liver can help with their gluconeogenesis you have glycogen in the muscle. So there’s, there’s enough money in the bank, credit card that you can use it the first two days where you know, using that analogy, once you cross the to the body is telling the cells Hey, I’m actually going bankrupt, I could not now breaking enough fat for you into ketones, I can no glycogen is getting depleted. And deliver reserves are being you know, used. So now when in crisis mode, which happens for most people, not at 16 hours, like they think, not at 18 hours, but actually after two days of fasting. And this will be called prolonged fast. And the body tells the cells, Hey, you gotta start burning your intracellular sources of energy, organelles debris and start to rejuvenate. We have to survive. In order to survive, we have to be at our optimum. And this is what’s called autophagy self eat and self renewal in the Japanese, in a researcher who discovered that that process are described not discovered, but described it in a biochemical formulation won the Nobel Prize in Medicine in 2016. For it, so it’s it’s a new chapter of fasting, which says if you fast for over two or three days, now it’s not only you’re losing weight, which is great, and improving your blood pressure and everything that happens there metabolically. But you’re engaging your cells and asking them to rejuvenate just the right the facts. This is where we come. We were like, wow, this is a miracle of biology. The buddy can rejuvenate its own cells, which basically is a good healthy aging. Or from a biological age standpoint, it’s an amazing way that the body is fixing its own cells, right? It’s like you’re in the Formula One car race. And in all the longevity lifestyle you can do is to slow down the car. But if you take a pitstop, all the mechanics come in the wheels, they add more gas and oil and you rejuvenate it. And so for the first time we have discovered the biological rejuvenation in then we were like, Okay, if you’re healthy, this might help you maybe stay healthy long. But if you’re sick with the body, tolerate that you’re diabetic, while you’re fasting with your body tolerate that you have cancer when you’re fasting or the body would find these diseases, because it’s a crisis mode. And the body’s telling the cells Hey, go fix yourself. And so we were very, very interested in starting to test fasting on disease remission. And we started doing this with very positive results in mice. Then we went in humans, striking results in my say, you know, cancer rates cancer survivor, cancer cure rates in mice went to over 90% diabetes reversal in mice. So when to humans, and nobody can fast for three, four or five days, it was very difficult. Both USC and Mayo Clinic together, cannot recruit people too fast for four days. And it was a cancer drop. And therefore, the National Institute of Health stepped in and donated millions of dollars to us and to USC in order to develop the fasting-mimicking diet. Meaning Can you nourish these patients? Can you develop a diet that people can eat? But the diet does not like? Remember insulin and IGF? The body recognizes food and goes off fasting When insulin is high, and IGF is high. Can you develop a very special food formula that you can eat? Insulin doesn’t spike IGF doesn’t spike. So from the endocrine perspective, from the total body perspective, the body is not sending signals or food and then at the cellular level. Can you develop that nutrition to go around the brain cells, the sensors, the food sensors of the cell, the pKa, the RAS and the Tor pathways, the three pathways tell the cell there’s food, can you go around these pathways can you not trigger them enough? So, the concept of fasting with food for the fasting, mimicking diet is a concept where you’re eating. But physiologically at the cellular level, the cells are not recognizing the food, therefore, the pressure on the cell is still on. Therefore, the cells practice autophagy and rejuvenation, and therefore we give you the benefits of fasting while you’re eating while in food, and that, that that is probably one of the biggest discovery of nutrition in the century. And we were able to find over 300 patents globally on this discovery, in that we have over 40 patents fully issued on multiple health conditions with the fasting-mimicking nutrition.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s awesome. So just being the nerd that I am, as far as how do we know with the research, that those nitrogen sensing pathways with the with the food that you you give your your research participants is actually not stimulating those three pathways? What are the objective ways to determine that that’s happening?   Joseph Antoun: So three, three ways we number one, you measure the fasting is so when the fasting for our audience, the most frequent regimen that we have with the fasting, mimicking diet is a five day, you know, fasting with food, nutrition, and a lot of people would recognize probably the prolonged brand, which is the product that we launched six years ago, it’s a five day food that you get, and, and you eat your food for five days, and your body will be fasting for five days. So how did we test that Poland mimics fasting, number one, we test IGF, IGF, BP, insulin and insulin secretion. Because if you can get the same rates as water fast, and keep those in mitigation, you know that your body is not recognizing the food, then we test ketone bodies showing that ketone bodies keep growing up, and then we test flux of autophagy. And we test also, I don’t want to mention this as a claim. But we are interested in we did some sub cover testing of even a push on the stem cells, which is a very actually only happened at the very advanced stage of fasting where sometimes the body actually pushes younger cells. So I don’t want to talk in detail about this. We’re still in research about it, but that’s another avenue that we’re exploring in here. So these are the ways exactly like water fasting, we measure ketones increase, IGF, VP, IGF insulin, and autophagy flux. Right, okay.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And so as far as it makes perfect sense, because if we understand how important the growth like factors are on aging, and being able to harness the ability to detox and get into a toughie, G or clear out debris requires you to fast but Who on earth is going to be able to do it. And then being able to formulate a regimen where you’re still eating. And I did it actually, for the first time a couple of weeks ago, and I did fine with it. And it was, it was, it was great. I guess one of the side questions I would ask you is, which you probably weren’t prepared for is, I know, there’s a psychological connection with food, I really feel. So what have you found in terms of the feedback that with each successive fast, because I’m set to do my next week, and I feel that there were a couple of holes for myself where I realized that oh, my gosh, when I wake up in the morning, I’m just going to crush whatever I because I’m so hungry, I need to eat or psychologically, my wife’s cooking, and I can smell it, and I’m already on the foods that I’m allowed to have, I already had my meal for the evening? I’m gonna wake up in the morning, and I’m just gonna, I’m gonna break it, I’m gonna eat whatever I want and then wake up in the morning, I’m not hungry, right? Or I even got to day five. And I didn’t need the first bar in the morning. I just did it because I did it. There was a couple of aha, it’s like, oh, there’s, there’s a certain emotional, psychological connection. So maybe talk a little bit about that. I know, we weren’t prepared to talk about that. But that was one of my own. AHA is that I have and where does that come in? Or do you guys harness that as as educational information for people that are wanting to get some longevity and improvements with doing something like this?   Joseph Antoun: Yeah. What you just described is the number one benefit that people talk about when they do prolong is changing their relationship with food and creating this metabolic flexibility, right. So in this way, we talked about before the two days and after the day, so would you describe your hunger, your first year the pain so the first day is fine, you’re on the 1100 Calorie is the second day it becomes difficult, you’re depleting your, your liver, your glycogen, your, your fat. And Day Three is the most difficult. You’re like, Hey, I’m going to just pop this right because this is where the crisis is now telling the cells, hey, is pushing ketone secretion, but it’s telling the cells, you should start doing autophagy. Therefore, you’re like, shit, something changed in my body, I’m becoming more resistant to all this. And number five, and day five, you’re like, I don’t even need to eat. And I feel euphoric. And I feel full of energy, and I had the best sleep of my life. And I feel so autonomous. And this is where you’re cruising on ketones and autophagy. And on cells, using the intracellular energy and rejuvenating in this way you feel strong. Now they six you go and you go back to your food, more protein coming to your body, more carbs, you’re feeding these cells that are being renewed and you feel on day 678, like the best three days of your life, you feel like something happened to my body, and renewed, I have better mental clarity, the brain fog, my performance, my relationship with food, I don’t need the pizza, big pizza, I don’t need the late night snack, in that journey of transformation is, as you said is physical, emotional, and even mental. And it’s very important. The first cycle is the most difficult one when you do the first problem box, because for 99% of us is the first time ever, we’re going to trip we’re going to move from a carb consuming body to a ketone consuming body. It’s like going to the gym for the first time or playing a big basketball game. After being off the court for three months, you get to feel the pain of it. The next week, you go there, you feel much less pain, and then afterward, there’s no pain. So next Brahma box would be much easier because your buddy learned at least once had to move from carbs to ketones, and you understand the journey. And the third one is much easier and easier and easier. I’ve done over 20 Now, it for me is like a very metabolically very flexible, so I switch much easier than other people. And it’s still less of a painful journey for me. But it’s always good this first time to feel like wow, I can live on much less food, my brain, I never felt my brain was so locked and foggy and the clarity and the performance. And once you unlock this, the horizon in a field, the rejuvenation. It’s powerful. Fasting impacts every cell of your body, we just finished a clinical trial on the skin, and we’re showing the benefits of Rolawn on skin glowing skin radiance skin. So it’s the first nutrition that’s showing you in five days. And we also did three cycles. So 15 days, we do problem just once a month, just five days a month that liquidity clarify this for our audience. This is not a diet for every day, this is just five days a month, and you can do it. Even you know, once every quarter is just three times a month, for three times a year or four times a year. That’s all that you need. This is the first time from the CEO telling you don’t do my diet every week. Or subscribe so that you get it every week. It’s three times a year. Now if you’re overweight, you know. And there’s more way to say you can do it four times or more. But all what I’m asking people is this like the car racing, you take the pitstop twice in the race, you don’t take it every two minutes, or every two laps in fastening is the same thing. You need a deeper fast, prolonged fast with prolonged probably 234 times a year. And that’s it. It’s a stellar rejuvenation exercise. It keeps you with about flexible, it takes it to that pitstop the mechanics come they fix what they need to fix, and they set you back, you know stronger and better into the race.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s great. And you have a new relationship with food. And I think even some of the other invisible benefits is you’re resetting some of the microbiome diversity or you’re calling the herd, if you will, and you’re strengthening up the mitochondrial health or your body’s ability to make energy more effectively. As far as I know that you also with with the certification course you which you are very objective about it and and being able to present okay, there’s there’s variations in the way that we do this. So some people might be saying, well, I do A a 16 eight, or I do a five two where there are two days of the week where I don’t do any food whatsoever, or I do one or two days, or there’s the prolonged fast with a fasting-mimicking diet. So can you speak about are they or are they you? Are they synonymous or like as is one the same as the other or is there a benefit to doing one and having different tools in your toolkit? I guess from a personal standpoint and a company standpoint, what are you? What is the company suggesting, or the education that you train to have as many tools in the toolkit? Well, I’d like to get your feedback on that.   Joseph Antoun: No, I think during clarify, I think you should do prolong three times a year. Again, you can do a two to three, if you have a health or a way to reason you can do more frequently. But um, this is don’t take this as prescriptive because each person is different. And I cannot generalize to everyone. I do this four times a year. And then a lot of people say what to do in between, right, you inspired me to five days of roll on there long enough to induce a change in the short enough for everyone to complete and be inspired and say what to do next. And some people they just want to eat healthy after that’s the longevity diet. This is our nutrition for longevity as well. We created a full pipeline of healthy nutrition that you can deliver at your door called nutrition for longevity. This is the one that we talked about that now Medicare, Medicaid and 43 insurances are reimbursing. If you want to continue with fasting, you can do intermittent fasting, intermittent fasting is either 16 hours a day 12 to 16, we recommend 12. If you don’t want to use any food, if you want to go all the way to 16, we do have a fast bar, if you want to eat a bar in the morning, it is clinically tested to be equal to water fast. If you want to read that article, we published it, the nutrients are one of the top nutrition journal about the fast bar that you can eat in the morning and your body doesn’t even know you’re eating. So you would have the same ketones and the same blood sugar as a water fast. And why we develop the fast bar because we understand the folks who want to go on 16 hours a fast from the weight standpoint and the calorie balance standpoint. But remember that your brain is without food for 16 hours, and your heart that needs to pump your kidneys. So there are essential organs that have to function in probably this way, all the way because there’s a high-calorie demand in the morning, you’re going to work you’re thinking you’re working your muscle is moving. So when you skip breakfast, of course, you lose a little bit of weight and you feel that hunger binge after the fast part is there to keep nourishing your essential organs into to induce less of a binge eating afterward, a lot of the trials on the 16 hours of fasting, they’re not very conclusive because a lot of people stay 16 hours and then they go and they binge eat and they binge eat actually and they eat late at night. And that counterbalances the positive. So the first one is there to help. And then for those that you talked about what to do, they have fast. Some people practice the five to meaning for seven days a week, they do five days of normal eating and two days of fasting. Same argument. You know, we’re not a big proponent of waterfront because you don’t want to deplete the essential organs of the body. So we have a product called the prolonged reset that you can consume its food that you eat the entire day during your fasting days. And it nourishes your organs while keeping the cells in fasting mode. And that’s the entire purpose of our company. And again, we were a water fasting company, the National Institute of Health at the University of Southern California helped us to develop the fasting-mimicking technology, which is helping people go on a longer fast you want to do 16 hours, okay, eat something though. You want to do one day a fast eat something because you don’t want to deplete your essential organs. Now you want to do the most important five days fast, which is a rejuvenated fast, all the other fats are more to lose weight or, or for metabolic health, which is great. But if you want to have the cells participate and rejuvenate, which is probably the big gold standard of fasting, definitely you need to do the fasting-mimicking diet to do it in a safe and compliant way over the five days period.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I agree. I think that with the studies that are showing 88% of people are metabolically unhealthy. And I explain to people that you’re not combining the food you eat and the air you breathe, to produce ATP and water and you’re not using oxygen for you. You’re using oxygen against you. And so many people have spent so much money they spend so much time on their own. They go from doctor to doctor, and they have every Santa Claus bag of supplements in their pantry. And they look at me and they say well, what are you going to tell me that I already haven’t done? And I pretty much hunch? Well, 99% certain they haven’t done this. And it’s a tool that they need to do if you think about how our body has been engineered over like you’ve pointed out over the millennia to have feast and famine and to be able to realize that that is a therapeutic way for or just a way that our body has been engineered for, for longevity. So kudos to you for doing this, and thank you for your time and for being here. As far as it’s exciting for me to hear about the nutritional for longevity, especially with the third parties coming on board because I think that’s the momentum that we want to see where they’re incentivized to give people support for longevity and realizing that that’s a win-win, where their premiums can can go down, because they’re not paying out so much money and their pay, I thought that something like that, at some point has to happen for us to have policy changes, and I can see where your, your your policy and public health has come into play and how you’re monetizing in terms of approaching it from a pharmaceutical approach. So I really appreciate everything that you’ve done, and you continue to do. Before I get to my last question, what forecasting with the the company and our mutual What do you see in terms of additional healthspan? Because that’s the term now it’s like, we don’t want to just increase your longevity, we want to increase your healthy longevity, where do you see l nutria. Maybe having tangential other types of information and or services or products to align with that just as a curiosity?   Joseph Antoun: Well, the most exciting for me is coming next, which is the end of this year, we’re going to launch our diabetes remission and regression program. That’s a program that is coordinated between nutritionist, our fasting, mimicking nutrition and nutrition for longevity. And we just published last week an article on diabetic kidney rejuvenation, where we just finished a trial on diabetes remission and aggression. So we’re putting those together. And we’re gonna launch a diabetes readmission reduction program driven by nutrition, which is amazing for us, again, diabetes is my passion, diabetes and cancer are my passion. And I couldn’t believe that there’s no nutritional product that is here to help people with diabetes, why the disease is in nutrition, disease, nutritional disease, up to 80% of the times. And lung cancer was always fascinated that if you have cancer, you say, well, you get to do chemotherapy or hormone therapy or immune therapy. And that’s it. And how about nutrition? How about the nutrition? Oh, yeah, you eat healthily. And yeah, if you want to exercise a little bit, that’s not what medicine shouldn’t be about. medicine should be about, well, you have this type of cancer, you should eat this type of food to increase your chances. And, and we’ve published four articles on cancer, with the fasting-mimicking technology last year, and three of them are in nature, the number one sign Journal, the word. So we are thinking next year about launching a program in nutrition for cancer program as well follow after that, in addition, for autoimmune, for autoimmune. So pretty exciting. Next 12 months for us. We’re getting all these 25 years of clinical trials, they were going to harvest their results, and last nutritional program to help people with certain health conditions.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, it’s great. And I think that was one of my big takeaways from the A for him in that as the way I was trained, I was already familiar with a lot of what I almost assumed to be common sense information, right, like in terms of natural approaches with food and lifestyle. But what’s nice is the way that it’s been approached from validating through scientific studies and approaching it like the pharmaceutical model, and ultimately hoping that that impacts the way that health care is practiced and, and being able to empower people to get their health back because where we’re headed now if we don’t have someone to intervene with the tidal wave of the tsunami of what’s going to happen with diabetes trajectory, if we don’t stand in now, it’s gonna be very crippling. So it’s very timely. Thank you for doing this. I always have a question at the end, knowing what you know now, about health and you did follow your passion. It’s not like you just sort of spun your wheels for many years and were frustrated. You saw the writing on the wall, you’re a forward thinker. Is there anything that you would have done differently knowing what you know, now maybe for your health or a loved one or just the culture in general, around healthcare, and I mean, it’s a lot proven in your product, but anything else that we didn’t talk about that you wish you would have known sooner?   Joseph Antoun: I think yes, I think the notion of the notion of biological age and the notion of aging from food Here’s something that I only discovered like 10 years ago. For me, it was, you know, mostly calories and losing weight, gaining weight, muscle if you want to eat more protein, etc. I never thought about food as an accelerator or decelerator of my biological age. And I never thought about my biological age being the most important determinant of which of my deaths actually, through either cancer or Alzheimer’s or diabetes, or cardiovascular disease. When I went to med school, we treat each one of these diseases fully separate. We have different specialties, we have different tracks, we think each one is a completely different system, different etiology, different treat like it was never, I never learned in allopathic medicine, that it’s all about aging in biological aid in nutrition is a big part of that, in it, how to use all this to increase my chances to stay healthy long, rather than just focused on okay, if you’re sick with this if you have a cardiovascular issue, which pill you would take, I feel this should be the last resource in there’s a big role for current medicine to play. And again, it’s not the full role though, we got to bring longevity medicine and lifestyle medicine to it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that’s, it’s great. And I foresee some obstacles along the way. But at the end of the day, I think the truth rises to the top when you circumvent it and you empower people with what you’re doing, which is amazing. One of the things going back to the bodybuilder didn’t know Ronnie Coleman had died. Thank you, for telling me. I didn’t know that. But what I was gonna say is, that I do feel that they were the original biohackers in the sense that they understood periodization growth and cutting, they just took it too far. But I think that that are that a lot of the tenants and fasting mimicking, from refueling from growth factors depending on where you are in the lifecycle when you’re wanting to build and strengthen and load the bone and build mineral density to when you’re older. And you’re you need to put more emphasis on cleansing and clearing out. But if you think about the diner or the circadian rhythm, you think about the monthly rhythm, you think about the seasonal rhythm, and you think about just how we go through plenty and we go through lack, our body’s really engineered for that. And it’s not just one magic pill to fix the ill. And it’s not just set it and forget it either. It’s a lot of moving parts and realizing that our body’s amazing, we have to give it both the yin and the yang so that it can be able to function at full capacity. And I just want to thank you for taking the time. And being here today, I will post links to be able to where they can access getting some of these these products that that you’re promoting. And I’m excited to see what Al Nusrah has in store with the clinical trials of diabetes and cancer. Any last words of wisdom that you can share with our listener?   Joseph Antoun: Again, think about the five pillars of thing healthy long, the health plan pillars, nutrition, exercise, stress, sleep, and probably the one that competes on number one most impactful with nutrition is the social capital, receiving and giving love, your family, your serenity, your yoga, your meditation, your self-love, your self-appreciation, Your precious purposefulness, all these It seems they can’t equal to nutrition and they compete as the best way to live healthy long we studied people who live 100 and beyond the centenarians. And guess what some of them eat healthy, some of them don’t. Some of them smoke, drink, and eat bacon. And they all have is they live in their village that happy with their family and they might have a big smile every day of their life. So what I wish everyone here today is hopefully you learned a couple of things that are going to change your life. And the third thing that gonna change your life is to keep that smile and optimism and purposefulness it’s going to bring you positive energy and healthy longevity.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Thanks for that last little piece. I appreciate your time and I look forward to probably Part Two somewhere down the road. And I wish you nothing but future success and endeavors with everything that you’re doing. Joseph Antoun: Thank you very, very much. If you are interested in saving 15% on your 5-day fasting mimicking kit, click here: Use provider name: Richard Joel Rosen Location: Boca Raton   The post Fasting Mimicking Diet Explained | Lifestyle Medicine for Longevity, Disease Prevention appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your house where we help exhausted and burnt-out adults understand the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And this is part two of a two-part series with Martha Carlin, which is a joy to have her here, we’re going to tell you her story in a little bit. And we’re talking about, you have to fix our soils and fix our foods before we can fix our guts. Because if our gut health isn’t doing well, we can develop a lot of metabolic issues and autoimmunity and specifically in Martha’s personal experience, early onset of Parkinson’s and her husband, John. And as a result, Martha, Martha formed the bio collective team, which is driven to access the microbiome to fuel innovative health solutions, their team has developed easily, are not easy, but has developed ways to easily comprehensive collect samples, to be able to understand what’s going on in those and then create a database and to be able to unwind and figure out how the microbiome plays a pivotal role and what goes wrong. And ultimately, in part two, today, we want to talk about learning how we can alter the landscape, as Martha says, to be able to develop proper health again. So Martha, without further ado, thank you so much for being here once again and sharing your time with us.   Martha Carlin: Thanks for having me again, Jill.   Dr. Joel Rosen:  Yeah. well, listen, I’m, I’m very grateful that you’re here. And I had the opportunity to just listen to our first part one interview. And I think I felt the same way after I listened to it as I did when we were interviewing you that there was so much deeper, richer, I guess, the analogous of soils and minerals in the content that we were talking about, that we just had to go on. And ultimately, we were talking about altering the landscape. And so maybe you can catch us up with all that you’ve been through to realize that, hey, calth, is all about altering the landscape and what that means to you or means to the future of, of your, of your team and what you’re doing with the bio collective?   Martha Carlin: Sure. Well, you know, I think this is an age-old argument, if you will, that goes back to I think it was Claude Bernard and Louis Pasteur, who were kind of lifelong scientific rivals in the hypothesis of you know, the pathogen makes the disease versus the terrain, and Claude Bernard was a terrain guy. And it’s interesting because there is a famous quote, I think it’s Claude was right, the pathogen is nothing or something on his, the pastor said on his deathbed. And I’ve used that several times, in talks, because when you start to look at the microbiome, and individual organisms, what you, what you start to see and learn is that it’s not just a single organism, they work together in communities, just like humans do. And they work together for good or bad, just like humans do. And so a lot of that has to do with what genetic capabilities they have, what they use and produce that benefit, or to the benefit or the detriment of another organism. And so that was one of the foundational things that our chief scientific officer, Dr. Rowe Cano brought to the company is he was a very early pioneer in something called microbial ecology, which is how microbes work together, but also in using the terrain, to foster the right kind of community for what you want to happen. And actually, one of the early things he did in his career was using microbial systems to clean up oil spills. So he was an early pioneer in that, but to do that, he actually would kind of come up with the growth media that would support the growth of the right kind of bugs that would then eat up the oil. So if you think about that, in the context of the human body, you know, our, the food that we put in our body is what’s forming that landscape. Because whatever we eat, you know, we think we’re eating it for ourselves. We’re feeding different types of organisms in our body and that’s, you know, bacteria, fungi, viruses, you know, they like certain types. substrates, you know, sugars, fats. And it’s also interesting that you know, that most microbes are multifunctional. So they have kind of the full toolset, they can use, you know, carbohydrates, fats, missing the other protein. But there are, you know, there’s a handful of organisms that are very specialized that are lipo lytic, or, you know, like proteins. So, you know, you can better select for the specialists, when you have diets like saying, a ketogenic diet, which is more fat and protein that is going to select for more of those specialists versus the organisms that have all the tools but particularly like carbohydrates.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah, that’s a great primer, for sure. And I appreciate the bringing us back to the history between those two rivals, and on the deathbed realizing, you know, it is the terrain that makes the difference. And I think that when we look back from, I guess a perspective, in a lot of ways on health care, if we’re constructive, or at least objective about it, we will look back and say, oops, right, because you think about, hey, let’s just go in there from a traditional approach, and wipe out the bacterias with antibiotics, and then create all this resistance and strains. And then you have the pharmaceutical started the big pharma company saying, hey, let’s figure out how to increase our crop yield, and kill off these pesticides with nerve gas, or other types of pipe cleaners and stuff like that, to realize that only oh, maybe it’s having an impact on our body. And yet, here we are, and it’s amazing with Dr. Raul who you’ve hired with the microbial ecology, and understanding if we can repopulate the soils to bring on or get rid of these things, especially in the way of an oil spill. And we can have bacteria that are harnessed to be able to kill this disaster, then there’s a lot of hope for what we’ve done in terms of adulteration. So that kind of catches us up to where does that lead us now and I know you have the Paleo biotic program and the yield and shield. But let’s just take a step back. Because as I was listening to the last conversation that we had, of course, the whole reason you got on this path, Martha was your husband, John has Parkinson’s, and you were in your previous life, a turnaround specialist for businesses. And here, you are now being presented with this daunting task of your loved one having a life-threatening neurological disorder. So let’s maybe talk a little bit about how that Genesis started. And because I was intrigued to hear that and you said you’d be willing to share it on the podcast, so why don’t you go ahead and give us some insight on that?   Martha Carlin: Sure. Well, John, and I first met in college, actually, and he was, uh, ahead of me in school. So I think it was my sophomore year, maybe his two anyway, it was his last semester. And so we, we dated, and, you know, I was pretty gaga for him. But all of a sudden, he just vanished. Didn’t see didn’t hear from him. Didn’t see him ever again. And he graduated and was from another state. So you know, I sort of forgot about him, I guess. And I, you know, went on with my life, moved to Texas, married someone else, and had a child and got a divorce. 13 years later, in a bar in Dallas, Texas. I walked into the bar, it was like singles night, and I was there with a bunch of my guy friends. And we walked in, and this tall, handsome guy comes walking across the room, like, you know, very. He was very intent on talking to me, walks up to me, and says, Hi, I’m Martha Carlin. I mean, Martha Karl. I’m John Carlin. Remember me from you know, the University of Kentucky and he remembered my name you know, and I was glad that he told me his name. I recognized his face but I would not have off the top of my head. I remembered his name and we just immediately it was like no time had passed at all started talking to each other. sat up till about four o’clock in the morning. And the next morning, I just talked about everything and caught up. I told my girlfriend, I was like, you’re gonna think I’ve lost my mind, but I’m going to marry him. And, you know, I did also find out why he disappeared.   Dr. Joel Rosen: was my next question like what happened.   Martha Carlin: So that was that was a clue later as I started to unravel kind of the whole immune system Parkinson’s, he got shingles on his face from the stress of final exams and all of that. So, you know, he had shingles all wrapping around his face toward his eye, which he was in danger of losing his vision. So, you know, he said, he looked like the Elephant Man or something. And so he just kind of was like, I’m not gonna let her see me like this, and just went off and, you know, our ways parted. But I always tell people, I think we were, you know, we were meant to be together to solve this problem and help for the greater good of other people who have this issue. And that’s why we were brought together. Because I mean, like, we’re both from, like, I’m from Kentucky. He’s from Ohio. I mean, I did move to Texas, he moved to West Texas, a different part. And we met in, in Dallas 13 years later. I mean, what are the odds of that?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Yeah. So then how long after I mean, you’re right, that is a tale looking back at it that when you have the reactivation potential for a herpes virus, where the shingles go along that nerve root, the when the immune system is depleted, I always say when the mouse kites cat’s away, the mice will play so when the immune system and that’s a very good lesson for people listening that if you have reoccurring cold sores, or shingles, or mono, then the reality is that your immune system is always being hijacked. Right. And we’ve talked about foods and the importance of nutritional sufficiency because any viral reactivation or any type of immune challenge is going to be secondary to meeting that nutritional deficiency. So with that being said, Martha, how, how long into the, into the reacquainting and getting back into, I guess, the relationship with John that he started to have? Or that or did he have the dreaded diagnosis.   Martha Carlin: So that was about eight years later. So we reconnected in 1994. And then he was diagnosed in November of 2002. He did have you know, earlier that year, in 2002, was when we started to see you know, the pinky tremor, he had some tremor was kind of interesting. He had a tremor in his tongue. And you know, he had the mask face where he was starting to lose facial expression, now, and his Parkinson’s has changed over the years where he’s not tremor dominant, and it’s divided into people who are tremor dominant and posture and gait dominant, he has a very little tremor.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And then just if you if the listener wants to hear what you did, once you learned about that, that’s all in part one. But ultimately, one of the Cliff Notes was that when you start creating a database of what all the Parkinson’s microbial ecology or the terrain looks like, you could predict who would have Parkinson’s without even knowing and that was one of the things that you said, was the lack of water homeostasis. And then from there, you just kept doing further and further studies and understanding molecular mimicry. And then the importance of mannitol and maybe sort of picks a weakened Springboard forward from that, because one of the things I want to talk about is you’ve developed an amazing probiotic formula that has eight different strains. And they help to as we’re talking about, alter the landscape or create that nice fertile ground. So let’s maybe start from there and Martha.   Martha Carlin: Sure. So um, well, you know, the water homeostasis issue was pretty interesting. I think I mentioned this on the other one, but our staff in the lab who process the fecal samples could identify a person with Parkinson’s just by looking at the fecal sample because parts of it Were like the consistency of concrete. And when we looked back through the literature, there was nothing about hydration and water. And, you know, I had spent a fair amount of time looking over the years at the mitochondria and, you know, water production capabilities by the mitochondria. So I, you know, had some curiosity around that, but I stumbled across a food connection. That could be could be impacting water homeostasis in the autoimmune category, there. So there are Aqua pouring genes in the body, these Aquaporins control the movement of water over the different membranes, and spinach, I think corn, and one other food that John was eating quite a bit of actually have a number of this molecular mimicry, where the peptide sequences overlap with this aqua Boren, and they can cause autoimmunity reaction to the awkward porns and make that not work properly. So then fast forward a bit to when I came up with the idea for the probiotic I went to the park world Parkinson’s Congress in Portland, Oregon, and some researchers were presenting data on a scientist who had shown that the sugar alcohol mannitol could stop the aggregation of the proteins in an animal model and pull them out of the brain. And of course, you know, if we think about mannitol, is sugar alcohol? Well, alcohol is a solvent. So you know, that makes some sense. Logically, they’re also mannitol is a neutral molecule. So, you know, it could be you know, doing something with pH. And it is interesting in the fermentation of proteins in, you know, commercial production of proteins, you acidify the solution to increase protein production. So, I think, again, back to terrain, pH has a lot to do with terrain and, and what happens in those ecosystems. You know, that’s probably one of them, you know, key things you can change is your pH. But so we came up with this concept for restoring mannitol production in the gut by converting glucose and fructose. And what was interesting, we did this, like in 2016, made the formula you know, John had some positive results. And then about two years later, some follow on research came. I think it’s the University of Edinburg had some research on a strain of bacillus subtlest where they showed in a worm model. That bacillus subtlest could stop the tremor. While our formula already had a bacillus subtlest in it. And then there was a Korean company that came out with research on a strain of lactobacillus plantarum, they did a clinical trial and Parkinson’s and showed that they were able to improve something called your PDR score. And, you know, we had a very specific Lactobacillus Plantarum in our formula, and we compare the genomes of those to our formula, or our lactobacillus Plantarum, was selected to be able to break down glyphosate. So again, reshaping that landscape and getting a lot of glyphosate out of the body. So you know, that sort of all those little pieces around kind of the concept. But what we’ve also found along the way, is that by producing mannitol, from the glucose and fructose in the body, so restoring this endogenous production,   you know, we were changing insulin profile or, or, you know, people’s blood sugar. And so, we’re actually in the middle of a clinical trial and people with diabetes as a result of that, and I was not aware at the time but went back to say, there’s quite a bit of literature around insulin resistance and about two-thirds of people with Parkinson’s have insulin resistance, and there’s, you know, evidence and both Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s have what’s called type three diabetes, which may be insulin resistance of the brain. So you know, this All these pieces of how the product works just continued to kind of play into the mix in a lot of ways, I feel like the formula itself was a bit of a gift. And even the strains, some of the strains that are in it, that we were able to find an isolate either from fermented food or some other source just sort of came about kind of miraculously.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah, well, listen, it comes back to what you were saying with the age-old argument of the terrain. And it’s not like you’re doing the reductionistic approach of, hey, let’s just isolate this, this particular strain in a lab, you’re getting it from foods, and then identifying it from the natural foods or so it has every living intelligent thing in there. But like you said, we’re being scientists in a way of isolating, hey, this one does this, this one does this, but we’re not producing it in a reductionistic way like a pharmaceutical company would or a supplement company would, we’re doing it naturally. And the other thing I love about it is, as you’ve already sort of alluded to it, it increases the short chain fatty acid post biotic production of butyrate, which is super important for the taming of the Galt or the gut-associated lymphoid tissue or the things that impact the body’s ability to lose tolerance, because people need to understand when, when you’re not maturing, the prebiotic probiotic post biotic health of your microbiome because of adulterated foods and not getting anything that resembles something that mother nature made and stress and life and everything else in between, you’re not creating that, that what I call the fruit on the vine, where that helps your body tame down the swinging at everyone, and having an overactive immune system and settling it down. So that’s amazing. And then the other thing we talked about was the which I thought was amazing, which is I’m just more and more fascinated by oxytocin, and the ability to produce oxytocin and how therapeutic that is. And then we also talked about the ability to iron key laid or iron support, so that doesn’t accumulate. And of course, you and I have major ties in the whole world of copper availability and mineral deficiencies, and ATP production. And the other thing that I thought, oh, go ahead and look like you’re gonna say something there.   Martha Carlin: Well, the copper, the copper connection, I made the copper connection with Morley, after, you know, after we’ve made the formula had been out for quite some time, John had been taking it. But I started looking at bacterial multicopper oxidizes, and the ability of that, you know, the right type of probiotic organisms to, you know, carry this multiarch, copper oxidizes for us, and help us with that copper metabolism in the body and the importance of that to the mitochondria. And so we went back through the genetics of our strains and found that several of the strains in our formula, have these multi copper oxidizes, so that was awesome.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Right. And I did, I don’t mean to say, Hey, I’m the one with the copper that you and I met each other.   Martha Carlin: I just, it was a fun find after the fact. And I mean, that’s actually the connection. You know, when I first met you, I was like, Oh, here’s somebody who gets the copper.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. Well, you know, it’s amazing, just sort of as a backstory, because I do a lot of genomic test interpretations on people that are exhausted and burnt out. And I was wondering why, like, why is everyone everyone having a problem with their iron regulation? And, and it seems that for me, specifically, and most of the clients we work with, there’s these copper genomics, which basically means in English, they’re set up from a weakness to be able to transport copper or utilize copper, for effective cellular respiration. And then some stroke of genius. You know, frequency just sort of led me to cure your fatigue with Morley Robbins, and it was just like, I guess a wheel for a caveman. You know, it was like fire for us. Oh, my gosh, all these things. And then when we’re at the biohacking Congress, conference in Las Vegas, you introduce yourself and the forever it’s been changed from that. So so as far as the other thing I love about what you talked about last time, Martha was one of the correlations that you noticed were strep infections where were people that had strep infections. streptococcus preferred glucose as their growth factor and based on the fact that you could get a strain that you’ve made, you have all these isolated individual components that have all these benefits. What, let’s take us through that so that we can now expand into other correlations, what was it again, that you found with the streptococcus infections and so forth?   Martha Carlin: Well, so when I kind of started out talking to collecting samples from people with Parkinson’s taking, they’re kind of the standard history, but I would also just do a personal interview with everybody we collected a sample from to get their life story. And one of the things that early on people were mentioning was that they got a lot of cold sores until they got a diagnosis of Parkinson’s, and then they’ve never had a cold sore since. And I’m like, That’s interesting. So I started to specifically ask that question, to pretty much everybody. And I found that also with several people who had multiple sclerosis. And so you know, I started to dig a little deeper about the strap and how it works in the body, and you know, what, post-infection kind of symptoms that you might have. And so that that was just kind of a dot connector for me. And I think I mentioned before I went to 23, and they and they were able to also connect that strep infection. But you know, eventually, that’s also circled back to the use of antibiotics. Because, you know, as a child, if you’re frequently having antibiotics, and you grew up in the era that we grew up in, you were given antibiotics, you know, here’s amoxicillin or penicillin, whatever. And, of course, that will kill the streptococcus. But it’s also going to kill a lot of the other really helpful bugs in your gut. And that’s one of the major issues with the approach using broad spectrum antibiotics is that it has wiped out a lot of the really good beneficial probiotic organisms that we need, you know, the bugs in our gut, produce many of the vitamins, hormones, and neurotransmitters, we need to be healthy. So if we don’t have that full complement, and so we were able to also through one of the researchers that I’ve collaborated with, over the years, did a population study. And I think I might have mentioned that, that they were able to connect the risk of Parkinson’s, with exposure to certain antibiotics 10 years before a diagnosis, and certain fungicides or five years before a diagnosis. So if we go back to the landscape, you know, 10 years before you’re getting a diagnosis of Parkinson’s, you’re wiping out the landscape. So let’s say that’s like, spraying napalm, in Vietnam over all of the greenery and killing everything. I mean, that’s how I kind of equate that. So you’ve set up the terrain with very few tools to deal with what’s coming it’s way. And you know, that’s one of the main drivers I think, is antibiotics and the connection there back to the food supply that I think many people didn’t realize, in 2011, Monsanto filed a patent for the use of glyphosate, Roundup. I mean, that’s the connection of the antibiotic. But the unfortunate thing about glyphosate is that it actually destroys more of the good bacteria, and a number of the pathogens are resistant to it. So with the increasing load of glyphosate in our food supply, then we’re constantly exposed to, you know, these doses of antibiotics through the residues in the food supply. And then, as that market has continued to develop, and the different approaches to how they sell it, you know, it originally started that it was used in you know when they’re before they plant, they spray to kill everything. So start with the new field, and then they would do some selective spraying during the growth. And now it’s used in I think, more than 60 crops, where it’s used at the end of harvest to accelerate the death of the plant to get the harvest done faster and more uniformly. And so when that happens, you have even higher loads of this antibiotic, glyphosate residue on the plant. And there’s an interesting short story there back in 2007, with the beer industry, who used uses barley. And they started using glyphosate and barley in 2007. And the beer brewers were having trouble brewing their beer, because the bacteria that are and fungi that are used in you know, the brewing of beer, the yeas and the in the bacteria were dead in the barley.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so So okay, so to summarize, it’s no wonder that we have 88% and greater of our population metabolically unhealthy. And you’re saying, Okay, we have the birth of the antibiotic era where we kill and drop the atom bomb in our microbiome and kill the innocent and the healthy, or sorry, and unhealthy and, and everything in between, but at the same time, doing the same thing to our food source, and making it so not only are we not having the internal mail, you have healthy bugs, but we’re not having the external mail, you have healthy bugs. And there’s nothing left in between. And just sort of to go back to what you were talking about with the cold sores? That’s a question I asked a lot of clients, how often do you have reactivations of cold sores, which is sort of the same thing as John having the shingles outbreak. And we really know that that’s mineral deficiency. And when you put these antibiotics and key laters, and so forth, and pesticides in our food soils, where are in our food supply, there are no minerals left, so it’s no wonder. And then it’s interesting, as far as seeing some other correlations, which you and I have talked about where I look, I first looked at it as when I only really knew about methylation and MTHFR. And the whole making Sammy and homocysteine and glutathione, I really looked at it as Oh, that wheel is not working well. And when that wheel is not working, well, those those viruses can reactivate. And that’s still helpful from a clinical standpoint, because when we looked at John, and we understood that, hey, there’s a methylation or actually a B 12 thing, a parietal cell thing and antibody thing, maybe there’s Pernicious anemia, and there’s something going on there. So you see all these other correlations. And the reason why I expanded from that methylation is that I looked at it as that’s only an income thing. Whereas the expense thing is the iron oxidation is the depletion of NADPH, which helps to recycle so many things, is the histamine, the glutamates, the electrical sensitivities, not turning on our antioxidant pathways. And when all those things are going awry, I don’t even look really at MTHFR anymore, because it’s like saying, Martha, let’s get you a job at you know, McDonald’s, and really not expect that to pay for your mortgage, your car payment, your your student loans. And really, it requires us to pay down the student loans and the car payments and not create so much expense so that the methylation slash income isn’t expecting to do the heavy lifting. And that’s why you see a lot of clients or people will say, Well, yeah, I had MTA I have MTHFR. And I started to take mega doses of methyl folate, and it makes me feel worse, it’s just as an aside, so if you have a comment on that, I’d welcome it. But what I’d like to also do is a transition that to Okay, well, you’re not just doing the research, but you’ve also come up with ways to do something about it. And that’s with the microbial ecology and the yield and shield and paleo biotic. So if you’re listening to this, and you’re thinking, Oh, my gosh, the sky is falling. We have antibiotics, we have glyphosate and there’s nothing left. There’s nothing left to do. There is a lot of left to do. It’s not just producing sugar shift and a probiotic to help you change the terrain. But it’s also like you said in our last podcast, to fix our gut, we have to fix sick Pixar foods to fix our foods, and we have to fix our soils. So that’s a long-winded question. But if you want to kind of go from there, that’d be great.   Martha Carlin: I may have a little bit of a long-winded answer. Because you know, if I go back to the beginning of when John was first diagnosed, and I started digging in and trying to figure out okay, what would be, you know, I was trained in this method called transaction flow review, I can’t remember if we talked about that, but in a business where you follow every transaction that flows through a business, looking for the breakpoints, and that’s where your risk is. And so I took that approach on, you know, John and the human side. And of course, the main things that flow through the body are food and water. So I spent a lot of time looking at the food supply, looking at the chemicals that are used in the food, and looking the genetic engineering of our food. And if you think about it, food is information. And our body is like a quantum computer. And so all the food that’s flowing through our body is providing information. Well, genes are the code of that information. And so, I dug very deeply into trying to understand more about how plants are modified genetically how organisms are modified genetically, what happens in that process, and they use viral vectors, I mean, they use like little pieces of code, it’s like putting together, you know, object oriented code and software, something where you’re, you’re taking pieces and putting them together. And, you know, pieces of them are viruses, viruses, viruses are the vectors that deliver you know, the information into a plant or you know, whatever is going to be modified, and then you have these little snippets of genes. So, you know, I had this whole thing in my mind that, and I’ve continued to look at that over the years about what genes are being used or targeted, or how so then, you know, we started to collect fecal samples and look at we did the whole genome, so then I could start to see, I could see differences in healthy and unhealthy microbiomes in the presence of certain genes that were either, you know, targets of certain herbicides and pesticides, or were genes that were engineered into the food. So that was a really inter interesting connection for me. But then when, when Raul came on board, and we’re, you know, talking about the complexity of the problems in the microbiome, and how to restore them by putting back the working systems that are missing. So our human probiotics, you know, we have sugar shift, we have one called the antibiotic antidote that you take after you’ve taken antibiotics to help restore the terrain, we have one called the ideal immunity that has specific things that target foodborne pathogens. So you know, salmonella, Listeria, that kind of thing. You know, we have one for the heart that improves cardiovascular metabolism. And we’re just bringing out one that helps restore bacterial melatonin production, so helps with sleep at night. But even so we’re like, no matter how much you you can build these systems to really help humanity, you’ve got to go all the way back to the food and the soil, because the same thing that’s happened to our gut has happened to the Earth’s gut, which is the Earth’s soil. By constantly printing plants spraying these herbicides and pesticides on the soil, the soil microbiome is depleted, well, plants need the soil microbiome just like we do to be able to extract the nutrients from the soil. So if they don’t have the right kind of microbiome, then the plants are also minerally depleted. And so we think we’re eating a healthy food, but you know, the foods have maybe 50% or less of the nutritional mineral content that they had 100 years ago. And so we started to look at, okay, how can we make microbial you know, working systems like we’ve done on the human side, for soil and plants and specifically clean up the glyphosate that is in our soil, that is, you know, basically an antibiotic for the soil. So we developed several different products and then ultimately combined some of the mechanisms into one product called yield and shield, which can break down glyphosate all the way to I think it’s carbon phosphate and water, so it makes that phosphate bioavailable to the plant and then feeds a broader microbiome in the soil because it’s gotten rid of that antibiotic and it can do that in a bad out, that gets rid of about 90% of it, and 90 days. And then what that does is accelerate. So we’ve seen accelerated seed or improved seed germination. So if you have low seed germination rates, you can get higher seed germination, you get more plant mass, you get more yield on your crops. So we have, we’ve used it in oil and gas grassland remediation, we’ve used it in organic farming. And we’re now working with some people who are trying to reclaim conventional agricultural lands and turn them back into organic, which takes some time. And if you don’t have the right remediation for the glyphosate is still going to be there in the soil, so that we’re making those for, you know, larger convert commercial farming operations. But we decided, even for consumer business, that we would make a little eight-ounce bottle, that’s enough for somebody to, you know, it’s a concentrate, and they can use it in their backyard garden. So we’ve just produced that. And that’s also available. So people sometimes go Okay, wait, this is a probiotics company, why do they have a garden, but it’s because it’s all connected.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Now, it’s because you you’re conscientious, and you have a bigger purpose and mission, and you realize that you can’t reductionist sleep reductionistic we do this without having a domino effect on that. And you’re aware of that. Just curious as far as for personal use, and not so much commercial for big agriculture? How would I know if I like just wanted to plant in my backyard if I felt like I had a glyphosate issue or a mineral issue, but I just assumed guilty until proven otherwise? Or would it just help it another way?   Martha Carlin: Anyways, I would, it would help it anyway, it would help it anyway because it does restore a microbial ecosystem that works very well to provide a lot of the key elements that a plant needs. But I would assume that you have it and the reason why I say that is we did some field trials with our work and measured the glyphosate in the different soil plots. And we used an, we used a Miracle-Gro soil, you know, the bags that you get at the, at the Home Depot or wherever, as our control soil, but we went ahead and tested that to see if it had any glyphosate in it. And there were, and I’m sure you know, they haven’t been testing, they get materials from different places to make their compost and to do what they do to make their soils. But you know, my expectation after that experiment and seeing that there was glyphosate in the miracle growth soil is that it’s, it’s in every ubiquitous Yeah, soil amendment, and I got a different branch. This was probably three or four years ago in a, you know, had a raised bed garden, and I filled it with some soil that was organic, you know, a compost soil bag that I filled it with. And none of the plants did very well. And they were all sort of anemic and yellowish. And you know, I think it was one a pH thing, but also very likely that soil amendment that I got had had some kind of glyphosate residue in it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I think that’s an important thing to highlight where even from you get organic foods from one farm, but from the wind and the and the runoff. Everything is adulterated at some point at some level, I would imagine, as far as Martha or the art, is there a kickback? Or is there a concern that let’s say the commercial industry wants to use a product like a yield and seal to restore their soils, but then now they’re dealing with less crop return because of now you have pests that can come in and adults can do the things that the antifungals or the anti-pesticide things we’re aiming to eliminate? Is there that concern now?   Martha Carlin: Well, I think, you know, when you talk to the big ag commercial type people, they’re very vested in their approach to farming, which is a very chemical intense approach to farming. If you have very healthy soil and a mic and a healthy microbial ecosystem, you don’t have the problems that we’ve we’ve created, you know, self-inflicted wounds in both our internal ecosystems and the external food systems. By the approach that we’ve, we’ve taken, so, I mean, that’s not to say you’re not going to have any weeds if you go, you know, organic, but you’re going to have a much healthier ability for your plant to compete. And different bacteria. So I mean, maybe a lot of people may not know this, but so the the corn that is engineered, it’s called Bt corn. Well, BT is actually stands for Bacillus Thuringiensis, which is a strain of bacteria. So this bacteria naturally prevents, you know, certain worms and lepidopteran stuff. And that they, they took a natural microbe and the gene involved with that toxin production, and put it into the corn so that if, you know, if a worm eats that corn, it eats that BT toxin, and it kills the worm. So, you know, if we think about all the tool sets of, you know, a healthy microbiome in the soil and the plant, they have a lot of tools naturally, if they have a healthy ecosystem to defend themselves against, you know, the predators.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s what drives me crazy Martha in terms of you don’t see this in public health anymore. And I’ve even considered going back to school and getting a master’s in public health just to not be a person that understands the problem, but is unlike you, that does something about a you know, like, want to do something about it. And the reality is, is that you don’t see anything about public health anymore about we’re endowed with this strong immunity. If we eat healthy foods, and healthy nutrients that it becomes one of those things where now that you’ve increased your healthy immunity, you don’t need all these other supporting things to help your healthy immunity. And those that do very well, or don’t have major challenges with exposures to pathogens and viruses have a healthy immune system, but yet, we’re not preaching good healthy eating, getting out in the sunlight, putting your feet in the ground, having good relationships, not being completely fear monger and allowing that to just increase what I call your oxygen consumption. Right. Interesting on the I wrote down on the heart, cardiovascular, the bacteria, melatonin and the antibiotic, one that you have just as an are they? Well, I do want to make sure we’ve talked a little bit about water too. So just as a quick answer, because I have again, I Oh, gosh, I got to part three now, as part of the just the insights are those vastly different with the strains that you have, or with the particular foods that you’re making to produce those, but you can’t put enough in one super pill, you know.   Martha Carlin: Well, so I think that’s also the misconception of in the probiotics industry. A lot of people just think, okay, more strains is better, like, I’m going to put, you know, 20 strains in here. And that’s better, we use a computational modeling system that we built called Bio flux that helps us understand how they work together in a system. And we, you know, we use that to design our formulas. But we also very early on in the bio collective did work for other companies, taking the genomes of their strains and analyzing their formulas, and comparing them to their competitors. And what we saw is some of these formulas, were say they put 10 or 12 strains together, what happens in that system is one of the strains is basically using up all the resources. And what you get after, say, two or three hours is only that strain growing, all the other ones have, you know, petered out. And so we’re designing working systems that will work together as a community over say, seven to 12 hours, depending on what we’re designing. So I always tell people, I mean, it’s great if you want to try different products that we have, but you don’t want to take them all together at once. Right? Because, you know, it needs to get in there and get it system working for several hours before you throw something else on on top of it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So, right. Right as a great, thank you for sharing that because you and I had a conversation about the other companies that have proprietary information that suggested diet, which to me that doesn’t have a strong foundation because it’s so temporary Mental based on stress and travel and diet and genome and all of the above where I think that the best is to understand from a good health intake. Also know maybe some metabolic real-time lab results, also know genomic factors, and have a good review so that you can say, hey, for the next four to six weeks, we want you to go with these strains that don’t necessarily have a cool name like antibiotic this or that but has the same profile that would be therapeutic for those people, which I’d love to talk to you about in terms of like masterminding on that. As far as the two more questions are sort of the whole paleo biotics and what that is, and then maybe you can weave in, you also mentioned, which we haven’t even talked about is when John first got sick, it’s like, okay, as a system analyst, and where’s the breakdown goes and what flows through its food and water. We’ve talked about food, we haven’t talked about water. So I’d love to hear your two cents on what not even two cents to 1000s of dollars of insight on what the water what what we need to do about water as well.   Martha Carlin: So maybe I’ll start with that, because it dovetails back to paleo biomedical. So you know what, what a lot of people don’t realize is that our water systems, the design of our water systems, and water purification, and all of that, that had such a tremendous impact on public health. Because so many diseases are waterborne, those systems were designed 100 years ago, let’s say, and they haven’t evolved to take into consideration pharmaceutical pollution or chemical pollution that is now coming into our water systems. So over the years, industrial waste is now flowing down into the wastewater system, and you know, they can wash their hands, once it enters that storm sewer. And pharmaceuticals, you take an antibiotic, I think it’s somewhere in the neighborhood of 65 to 75% of that antibiotic will be excreted unchanged in your urine, which goes in the wastewater. So you know, somebody’s taken an opioid, you know, a hormone.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Not to mention people putting them in the toilet supply, right when they’re thrown away.   Martha Carlin: So they down the toilet, because often they’re they’re told to do that, by medical professionals just throw them out. But those pharmaceuticals go into the water supply. And the Environmental Working Group did some pretty comprehensive work, I think in 2012, and published on some of the major US cities and how much pharmaceutical pollution was in and what drugs were most prevalent in the different water systems, one of the ones is an over the counter is ibuprofen. And what a lot of people don’t realize is that taking ibuprofen over over and over and like constantly, actually increases the permeability of your gut lining. So that can contribute to a leaky gut. So if you’re just getting these things, you know, small doses in your water supply all of the time, you know, you’re taking your neighbor’s drugs, I say. So that’s one of the first things when people say what’s something simple I could do. And I say, you know, filter your water, make sure you’re but when you do filter your water, of course, then you’re filtering out the minerals. So you’ve got to, you know, put back the minerals, because doing reverse osmosis and some of these heavy heavy filtrations are also you know, taking out the, the trace minerals that that we also need. So it’s kind of this tricky little balancing act. And then that goes back to, you know, the waters flowing into our public water supply, but it’s also all these chemicals that are used on the land are and with the cattle, the antibiotics used in the cattle, you know, the big ponds that hold they’re, their waste. You know, when it rains, it overflows, and that gets into our water ecosystems and our rivers. And you know, one of the things that we talked about with paleo biotic and making products to help the soil and the water, because if you think about the fact that you have an organic farmer here and now Next Door conventional farmer, but there’s a river, or some body of water flowing along the edges of their properties. And they both draw water from that, depending on the direction of the, the flow of that water and where when and where they’re pulling it out, the organic farmer is getting contaminated by the chemicals that are flowing into that water. So part of our thought also was, you know, Paleo biotic could do the same thing for the land and the water that we’re doing on the human side, to clean up. These cannot these chemicals, you know, in some of them, they call forever chemicals. But what’s interesting about microbes is I love microbes, because they can do just about anything, they’re just so amazing in their ability to transform things, you know, toxic things into good things, but they can also make toxic things. So they’re used in so many ways, industrially. And when you start to see all the different ways that microbes kind of underlying our modern life and how they’re used as tools for so many different things. We have a tremendous tool set. And the story behind paleo biotic is Dr. Kondo came from.   As I said, you know, microbial ecology. He was a professor at Cal Poly for many years, he had an early company called Amber gene. And he was a pioneer in a field called paleo microbe microbiology, so ancient microbes, and he developed the techniques for cracking open ancient Amber. You know, if you remember the mosquito in Jurassic Park, well, not exactly that. But opening up Amber Amber is basically a resin from tree sap, which has some sugars in it, even the stone itself has this tiny amount of food source that over billions of years can continue to feed that microbe. And so he built this collection of over 2000 strains of bacteria and yeast, that he isolated out of these ancient Amber occlusions and deep-sea cores from the bottom of the ocean. So there are these pristine organisms that haven’t been adulterated by all the chemicals and things in our world today. And, you know, some of them have some amazing abilities for DNA repair, UV radiation protection. So, you know, that’s how it helps the plants, the soil. And so we’re using that suite of microbes to design things for the ecosystem outside the human body.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. I was just about to ask, so are you using that as part of your your paleo biotic mission to support water? So two things I got, well, a lot more than two, but two proprietary things are I’m gonna create a shirt with I love microbes, you know, as one of my main shirts. And then the other one is your gut health is your general ledger. That was from our first one. I love that as well. So as far as filtration, I know reverse osmosis removes the minerals, but are you basically saying for the average household that is, you know, impervious to these things, to just get a filter or get our own? Or is there a special other technology that you endorse or do yourself personally or recommend Martha?   Martha Carlin: We have a lot of water technologies, I’ll say, you know, we we have something called a John LS water machine that does UV and evaporative. distillation, we have our machine, we have a hydrogen water machine, but I think even just for the average person because all of that equipment can get very expensive, is just even at a minimum, if you can get yourself a Beretta or some type of a carbon filter, where you’re filtering out as much as you are a Berkey. You know, there’s a pretty affordable Berkey countertop solution. That’s a carbon filter that gets a lot of this out. But I tell people all the time, do not drink tap water. And that means when you go to a restaurant and they bring water to your table, do not accept tap water at your table. Dr. Joel Rosen Right? Yeah. And I also would further that in terms of when you get your own water, get it in a bottle and instead of a plastic because that sort of rubs off. So just as an aside to put you on the spot, as far as tech Kangen, water goes, What are your thoughts on that? Have you heard about that?   Martha Carlin: I know there’s I’m not an expert on that. But I, because it can control pH. And we talked about the impact of pH. I think you know, that understanding and connecting pH to the microbiome is critical. And I haven’t seen enough of that kind of research connecting those dots. But I do know people who have done the alkaline water and had great results. But I also know that you need stomach acid in your gut. I mean, you can, you can take butane, and some other things to replace that. But there is a connection between loss of stomach acid, and dementia, even back to some papers in the 1940s.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah,  I have a friend who I’ll talk to you off the air that’s an engineer that they look at different different utilities of using it. So it’s not just across the board like for, for disinfecting and using it as a natural way again, but I was just interested in your your opinion on that. So as far as I think we’re lots of great information, as far as what would you tell the person that would be listening to this, and be overwhelmed by it, but maybe they have a loved one or themselves that they were diagnosed with neurological autoimmunity that can be very daunting. And to you know, and I’m urging you to send me your stuff, because the loved one, the caregiver of that person also gets lost in the shuffle, and is overwhelmed themselves. But what would you say in terms of I mean, we got less than five minutes to sort of succinctly summarize, hey, like, just just like a diagnosis of cancer, like, God forbid, don’t just run to the person that told you, you got to do the big, the big sort of machinery of what we do, like take a step back and take a deep breath, survey the land. What else would you tell that person to do? Knowing what you’ve known? And all the things that you’ve done? Obviously, they’ve probably won’t create a whole industry, like you did. But what would what do you tell that average sort of weekend warrior, once they have these these diagnoses, what what they should be doing?   Martha Carlin: Well, I think, probably the number one piece of advice is to take control of your health by taking control of what you put in your body. And you can do that, by taking small steps. You don’t have to do it all at once. But you know, take a small step today. And, you know, eliminate one thing that might be a problem, maybe that’s wheat, because of the glyphosate or the allergies, or that kind of thing. Do something about your water, that’s probably number one. But you can take these small steps and starting to understand and pay attention to your body because your body is telling you something. And so that’s one of the things even over 20 years, we’re still learning with John is when something’s not working well, on a particular day, we stop and we go, okay, what’s my body telling me? What did I do? What did I put in the system? Food was the day before, you know, just like quick anecdote, John has had some long COVID symptoms, and it’s impacted his his Parkinson’s and he’s walking toward the end of the day, but he did this fast mimicking diet by prolong for the last five days, and he’s had the best five days COVID And so talked about how, you know, fasting and allowing the body to rest and cleanse can have a pretty significant impact on how you feel. So I mean, that the clue is you. I mean, the the advice is, you don’t have to do this all at once, but really start to understand back to my transaction flow review. You know, what’s flowing through the body, and how are those transactions impacting you be conscious and aware of what you’re putting in and how it’s making you feel. And as you start to do that and become more and more aware, I think you will We’ll start to feel better and realize how the food and the external environment are impacting your health, whether that’s neurological or cancer, or yes, if you’re healthy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s a great answer. In fact, I’m glad to hear that I’m on day five myself today. So I’ll be happy when I can go and eat tomorrow. Although I’ve done it, I have an interview with the CEO next week of proline to discuss that and I knew that was gonna be a game changer for John and as we work together, get into shifting into the metabolic flexibility given his you know, long history of being a marathon runner and everything that you’ve learned. So, Martha, a big hug to you, I really am grateful for people like you that, that put the world on your back and have a deeper mission to not just get answers for your loved one and yourself but for the world to and I do think that you were put together for for that purpose. So future success to you, I want to talk to you about all of the products that you have, so that we can help our listeners with those as well. And I got to run because I got another client here today. So I appreciate all your time and, and energy and everything else in between. Thank you so much for everything you do, Martha.   Martha Carlin: Thanks for having me, Joel, and thanks for everything that you did. To save 20% on Martha’s revolutionary Probiotic use the discount code TRUTH20 by clicking here The post How to Fix Our Soils, Foods and Metabolic Health appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their energy back quickly. And what a joy it is to have Martha Carlin here today, who is the founder, and I love the term the chief executive revolutionary for the bio collective company where it aims to accelerate microbiome research by supporting robust, reproducible, and reliable results that allowed the field to realize its full potential of life-saving discoveries. And she has a very unique story in 2002, her husband, John was diagnosed with Parkinson’s disease. And well, I’ll let her tell her the story from there. So, Martha, thank you so much for being here today.   Martha Carlin: Thanks for having me, Joel.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So I’m excited because you and I and I say this in an enduring way. I think both nerds and nerds found each other at the biohacking Congress. And we started talking. And we probably could have talked for hours and hours. And I think we had a couple of the times, maybe the presenters look back at us during the talk and say, like, Hey, keep it down, back there in the back row. So here we are today. And I want to hear and have you share with our listeners, just the genesis of where you got to today, and maybe sort of a shortened version so that we can spend more time explaining what you’ve discovered along the way. So why don’t you just tell us about your journey, Martha?   Martha Carlin: Sure. Well, Matt, my typical background is in business operations, I was a turnaround expert and head of operations for a large Real Estate Investments trust, so I was totally out of the science field, in 2002, my husband, John, at the age of 44, was diagnosed with Parkinson’s. And, you know, that’s pretty shocking when you’re young, we had two small children, and I had an older child. And, you know, I being a turnaround expert, I sort of looked at how the doctors, I mean, it was kind of like, they just drop a bomb on you and say, here’s a pill, we’ll see in six months, there’s nothing you can do. And that’s just not who I am, you know, I looked at it, I said, this is a systems problem, I need to understand the system in the same way I do a business. So I’ve got to start teaching myself science. So I started. And I looked at food first because that’s, you know, food and water are the major flows through the body that get ignored by traditional medicine. So I spent about 10 years studying food, nutrition, you know, how we grow our food, the chemicals that are used on that, and then along the way, came up to 2014 and read Dr. Martin blazars book, missing microbes, about the rise of chronic disease, post antibiotics, and how the antibiotics were destroying the microbiome. And a few months later, the first paper was published showing that you could map the symptom phenotypes in Parkinson’s, to the microbiome. And I was like Eureka, that’s it, I quit my job. We sold our house and started funding research at the University of Chicago looking at time series and part of my interest, in the type of sequencing we were doing, which very few people at the time were doing whole genome sequencing, the microbiome has about 300 times more genes than the human genome. And I felt that that was going to be the map to tying out some of the problems from genetically engineered food, to be able to see that, you know, all the genes on the map. And so, you know, we’ve done over 150 whole genome samples of John’s microbiome and I went from there to founding the bio collective with the researcher from the University of Chicago and a virologist, Dr. Suzanne Vernon, who had spent 17 years at the CDC studying chronic fatigue, and viruses so that we could build a biobank of fecal samples to connect the dots across disease, not just in Parkinson’s, but along the way, I have become an I think, a pretty good scientist. I mean, you call me a nerd. I’m a super nerd.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I said that with love so So to break it down just for my brain to understand this. I love what you said in terms of food and water and taking it from a lay person at that time where you’re certainly not now where okay, my husband has this I got to break down the system and look at the food and the water and how that is is I guess a simulated did it in where it meets the inside of our system, which is our microbiome. Can you explain what you meant in terms of mapping the biome and seeing when you had that eureka moment? So so so repeat that, again, in terms of an easier way for the person that may be lay? And they want to understand okay, so what did you do you found that there was a model that shows that these are the Parkinson patients type biome, and this is what a normal biome is, and then compare the two is that pretty much like how did it go wrong? Or what was the difference between the two?   Martha Carlin: So you know, the initial study by Dr. Philip Shepper, Hans in Finland took so they take fecal samples, and they sequenced those and compare them to a healthy microbiome. And what he was able to show is, you know, there’s a difference in a Parkinson’s microbiome. And then within Parkinson’s, can be subdivided into the people who have tremor dominant symptoms, versus people who have posture and gait. And from that point, there have been hundreds of microbiome papers in Parkinson’s, since that time, you know, advancing looking at proteins looking at, you know, other mechanisms related to, you know, nutritional deficits, and, you know, how the microbiome produces neurochemistry. So, you know, it’s just been a crazy emerging field since 2017.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, you know, and then the next thing that you mentioned, in terms of how much orders of magnitude the DNA for the microbiome and bacteria is compared to the human DNA, and it’s, like you said, an emerging field, and it’s almost overwhelming to be aware of what you don’t know, right? It’s like, oh, my gosh, like, as soon as you’ve had that eureka moment, and now you find out all these other rabbit holes, and you’re not just comparing a Parkinson’s patient to a, quote, unquote, normal sample, but Parkinson patients that have this versus that, and then there are so many different other rabbit holes to go down. And so I would love to discuss with you what you’re learning sort of from there, which is a slippery slope because there are so many ways we can go. But just to recap, you said, Okay, I have this eureka moment. And so I’m going to do like the turnaround person that I am, I’m going to go all in because it’s my husband and his health and life are on the line. And I want to make sure that we figure this out. So you started, you’re the bio collective, and you have different testing procedures and different ways to figure things out. So kind of go from there, like, tell us what sort of what was the next how things unfolded? And where we are?   Martha Carlin: Sure. So we started, I mean, it was just really early in the microbiome space, but we collected whole fecal samples. So you know, we designed to kit and patented it and started collecting a biobank, if you will. And you know, one of the more interesting things we learned in the process, our lab, people could tell a person with Parkinson’s from looking at their fecal sample without knowing they had Parkinson’s, it was that distinct from other samples coming through the lab, and the key tell was a lack of water homeostasis. So the fecal samples were more like concrete and a diagnosis of a well, chronic constipation can precede a diagnosis of Parkinson’s by 10 to 15 years. So I think, and there is nothing in the published literature about this water issue. So that was interesting learning that sort of provided some clues for us of where to look. But you know, we were doing the genomic sequencing and providing almost a 50-page report of all these genes and information and people would take it and try to have their doctor look at it. And it’s just, it’s too much. So after we built our biobank to a point where we had a sufficient amount of samples and data to start to connect the dots, kind of across diseases, but you know, we had 100 Parkinson’s patients. We stopped collecting samples and then really started digging deeper into the analytics of what is going on in the microbiome what can we see indicators and from that, You know, one of the more interesting things we did some machine learning with the Polish company called the origin, where we found these biomarkers. And one of those, one of the key markers was in glycosylation, which, you know, for people, if they’re not familiar with that, it’s the decorating of proteins with sugars. And, you know, one of those is hemoglobin. So it ties back to hemoglobin a one C. And, you know, from that we went back into the literature and saw this connection in the Parkinson’s research of, you know, comorbidities and glucose metabolism. And there’s, I think about 65% of people with Parkinson’s have some insulin dysregulation component. And, you know, there there’s even an area of research called, looking at what’s called type three diabetes, which may be insulin resistance in the brain.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, again, I’m loving the Genesis and the growth of it, then I’m following that, you know, as you tell me, okay, so we started to produce a collecting method. And as the samples came in, we were able to know without even comparing them to the norm, that this person had a Parkinson’s presentation, because there’s so much similarity to what Parkinson’s I guess the characteristics of that sample look like, to the point where we finally had enough and now let’s do some studies and figure this out. And this is where we are now and looking at the inborn error of energy production, right, which we look at as cancer as a metabolic disease. And ultimately, any neurological disease or any health challenge is a metabolic breakdown. And ultimately, your cells are not converting the food you eat with the air you breathe into water and energy. And on top of that, you’d like you just said, the foods are adulterated. There’s not a lot of minerals in there and unfortunately Well, tragically, there are so many chemical disruptors and things that you were just talking about. And then your body isn’t able to use oxygen effectively to produce energy. And then it has a, a way of making energy more efficiently by fermenting glucose. And then that has an imprint on the biome. So let’s talk about where you want to go from there. Martha, there are so many ways we can go.   Martha Carlin: Yeah. well, you know, one of my early focuses, you know, going back to the beginning, was looking at the herbicide glyphosate and how glyphosate is used in farming. And there, you know, it translates out in several ways, because the bacteria in our gut are producing a lot of those vitamins, hormones, and neurotransmitters. And glyphosate selects for a more pathogenic profile in the microbiome and destroys some of those key vitamin producers. And so, you know, that was an area that I was, you know, really interested in is trying to sort of figure that out, you know, the glyphosate connection. The other thing, and I know, you talked about this on some of your other shows is, you know, glyphosate was originally patented as a chemical to clean scale from pipes. It’s a very powerful key later. And so it’s not only chelating metals from our body, it’s chelating metals from the soil, it’s chelating metals out of plants. So, you know, we’re just getting less and less nutrition. And I discovered a book by a researcher from the Cleveland Clinic. Dr. I think it’s Derek Lonsdale. He’s no longer alive, but he has a book called I think it’s called high-calorie malnutrition, and thymine deficiency. So, again, back to those B vitamins, which are made by the gut bacteria, you know, you have this interconnection of what’s going on in the food supply and how that’s impacting the microbiome. Also in the, you know, in that same pathway in the bacteria, the first enzyme in something called the shikimate pathway is a copper-dependent enzyme. And you know, copper is depleted because of glyphosate. And then further downstream of that biochemistry is dopamine production. So you’re impacting, you know, dopamine production as well through those foods. And so along the way, just trying to figure out, okay, how do I maybe solve some of these problems, actually attended a conference where researchers from Israel were showing that the sugar alcohol mannitol could stop the aggregation of the proteins that are the hallmark in Parkinson’s. And in this animal model, they could pull them out of the brain. Well, mannitol is a really interesting molecule. It’s a very powerful free radical Scavenger. It’s used to treat brain swelling. It’s used like, the delivery of meth to enhance the delivery of medication across the blood-brain barrier. It’s also used in scientific research to keep the mitochondria happy. So, you know, I came back and started studying mannitol chemistry and found Oh, wow, there’s, there’s a small handful of bacteria that produce mannitol from glucose and fructose, I wonder if we could put a factory back into the gut to make mannitol. And so you know, we prototyped a product, and it converts glucose and fructose into mannitol, which humans don’t use, we eliminate it. And so that was sort of my first step in trying to figure out how can I do something to help John and at the time that we made that formula to test for him, he was walking with a cane and not doing as well as he had been, and within a month, we’re measuring his microbiome, and we could see it moving back closer and closer to the healthy human microbiome profile. And in about 30 days, he was no longer walking with a cane. So, you know, we took that concept of, you know, how can we start to look at the microbiome as something that can be supported and modulated. And in our formula, we actually had a focus on identifying strains of bacteria that were good vitamin producers, but could also withstand glyphosate because you can’t get away from it in the food supply, and break glyphosate, all the way down. Because in the biochemistry of glyphosate, when it breaks down, most bacteria break it down to something called the AMPA, which is toxic to the brain, even more, toxic than glyphosate. Whereas we have a strain of bacteria that breaks it all the way down to carbon, phosphate, and water. And so you know, you’re back down to your elemental level where you can eliminate something without harm.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, it’s, it’s amazing information. So the way that I think about the next question is, is that okay, the how, how, if we have something new, again, just sort of a quick response from you? What, what would be the purpose from a why would they even put glyphosate in our soils? Was that because they want to make sure that they’re killing pests and things so that they get better crops? Is that what was the purpose, I mean, from a, just an outer light laying, sort of feedback?   Martha Carlin: Well, glyphosate is a very powerful herbicide. So you know, it is for simplification. You know, they can spray it on on the fields, and they engineered resistance, glyphosate resistance into corn, and soy and some of these other crops so that they could just spray the whole field, you know, if you think about how crops have been grown, and people have to spend time weeding and doing things like that, you know, they were trying to make it more efficient. So by engineering resistance genes into the plants, then they can spray the field, and only those plants that are resistant to the corn in the soil, soy would, you know, survive, and the weeds would die. But what we’ve seen over the last, you know, 3040 years is the weeds have developed resistance, as well. So then you get, you know, more use more chemicals, and you know, glyphosate isn’t the only herbicide or chemical that’s used on the food. And you know, there are many mechanisms if you go back to these herbicides that were nerved gas Um, from World War One and World War Two, that, you know, the chemical companies looked for another use and put them into agriculture. But you know, if you look at how those nerve gases work, you know, they’re messing with acetylcholine receptors or, you know, other neurotransmitter mechanisms in the body, and now we’re putting them on our food and eating them all the time.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s helpful for you, thank you for sharing the beginning of what the thought process was to ultimately comes down to the dollar, and how could we get better yield, but the ignorance of okay, well, it’s going to be resistant, so nothing else is going to be problematic with that. Ultimately, when we eat it, then we have the same engineering in our microbiome that’s been designed to impact the crops and make them resistant to glyphosate. But yet, at the same time, expose them to glyphosate and mess up the diversity in our microbiome, to not be able to break down the glyphosate or impact the dopamine and different areas in our body that ultimately helps us make energy at the level that we need to, and then becomes neurotoxic, and a whole slew of other downstream impacts. And then from your research, you saw that mannitol is one of these things that can help break down glyphosate more effectively, and how can we or not so much more effectively deal with it better or be able to?   Martha Carlin: Yeah, well, the mannitol is not what’s breaking it down. It so we have a species of Lactobacillus Plantarum that has a specific genetic function that enables it to break the glyphosate down.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So good, I appreciate your scientific mind, because well, that’s not true at all. It’s this that does that, but the glyphosate helps this and that area, so that I mean, the mannitol. That helps. Yeah, the mannitol.   Martha Carlin: Actually, mannitol is a free radical Scavenger, it’s a six-carbon sugar, and it’s, it’s picking up hydrogens, but it also modulates pH. And if you look in, you know, the literature on fermentation production of proteins, you actually, the more acidic the pH is, the more protein production you’d get in a fermentation. So the mannitol is a neutral molecule. And it’s modulating pH, which is probably part of that mechanism. Altering pH is altering the proteins in the gut.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And then there, I’m sure, as we continue to talk, there are other important ingredients and formulations to get and continue to, grow to be able to address as many as many physiological impacts or breakdowns or improvements as possible. I just had an aside and I know there’s the VIOME company that does the whole sequencing what’s your feedback on that? What’s your sense of what they do?   Martha Carlin: So, you know, I think there’s, there’s VIOME, there’s, there’s a company called day two that was, you know, based on some research between the Weitzman Institute and the Mayo Clinic, you know, they’re taking different approaches. And it was interesting to me, because I sent samples to both days two and VIOME from the same fecal sample, and got very different food recommendations. Now, that was four years ago. And I think the, you know, the field has continued to advance and certainly, VIOME has, you know, they, they have a lot of funding, and they’re doing a lot of research. So I think it’s an interesting concept. I do think that we’re still several years away from being able to, you know, perfectly and ideally map a solution for somebody from looking at, you know, certainly not a single microbiome sample because, you know, the gut changes based on your diet, and, you know, from week to week, I mean, you can alter your microbiome in less than a week by shifting you’re you know, shifting your diet to a high fiber diet or, you know, going to a ketogenic diet, you’re going to change your microbiome dramatically.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, and again, I appreciate it. I always say I do these interviews for myself that were information and then everyone out says listening to it gets to hear me over my shoulder and like I’m taking notes. So, so as far as the concept with the biome company is hey, we’ll do the sequencing of your current real-time Mike Grow biome, which would be different from days and weeks and months and years ago based on what you ate, what your stress levels were, where you traveled to all of the above. And there are so many dynamics, but how, what’s the thought process? Martha in terms of how are they extrapolating that sequence and saying, Okay, these are the foods that you’d be better to eat versus not eating?   Martha Carlin: Well, you know, biomes are its proprietary, they do something called transcriptomics. So, you know, there’s is a, quite a bit different than somebody who’s looking at genomics. So, no, I think it would probably be better if you could maybe get somebody from Viacom just for me to speculate about what they do. I mean, it is interesting, because I think it may tie in a little bit too, you know, some of the work I’ve done in Parkinson’s in something called molecular mimicry. Because you know, that they are looking at RNA viruses. And there were some, there were some things that like, they told me not to eat green beans because there was a specific mosaic virus from the green bean, that might be a problem for me. And I got interested in molecular mimicry from the research by Dr. Robert Friedland, at the University of Louisville, who showed that people who smoke don’t get Parkinson’s at the same rate. And I’m not recommending that anybody go out and smoke. But what Dr. Friedland found was there is a tobacco mosaic virus that does mimic something that is connected with Parkinson’s disease, and in a way that, you know, if you’re, if you’ve come in contact, and you’re carrying that tobacco mosaic virus, it’s almost like a vaccine against Parkinson’s. So that was a really interesting area, as we started looking at different microorganisms in the Parkinson’s got, and sort of mapping that into this molecular mimicry concept, you know, bacteria produce something called a heat shock protein, I don’t want to get too nerdy on you, but you know, it’s a little peptide sequence. That is, it’s kind of a danger signal, you know, if the bacteria are under stress, you know, they’re putting out this little peptide. And those sequences, you know, it’s a series of amino acids basically, are the body then recognizes that creates, you know, the immune system reacts, and you get antibodies to this heat shock protein? Well, as it turns out, there are a number of those that are similar to human proteins. And so you can get this autoimmune reaction. And the same thing is, you know, there are also similar heat shock proteins in plants. So you can sort of get this perfect storm and one in particular that has been of interest to us is something called Alpha crystallin. It turns out that wheat has the most closely aligned Alpha crystal in the human alphabet. crystallin. And mycobacteria species also produced that and they produce another chopped protein, or they produce another peptide sequence for something called a cardio lipid. And so we started looking at those pieces in this concept of molecular mimicry, and what might be going on in the immune system, with people with Parkinson’s having kind of what I characterize as a chronic low-grade infection of multiple organisms, you know, bacteria, fungi, viruses, and all of that goes back again to an unhealthy immune system because our nutrition we don’t have the minerals we don’t have, you know, we don’t have the vitamin production, you know, the body is just not well tuned to fight off these pathogens.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, amazing. Thanks for bringing it back to that. And that’s what we talked about earlier is that if you don’t I do believe we have the inborn innate power to heal ourselves when we have the right minerals and nutrients that are grown from our Earth and not from a lab and patented and made millions of dollars from But then on top of that, The downstream effect of chelating minerals from herbicides and pesticides not only stripped the foods we eat of these healthy, healthy in vital ingredients, but it also messes up our factory and our ability to, to make the minerals from our microbiome. And then ultimately, we have stress responses or beacons sent out by our bacteria. And we ultimately create a response to that, which is perhaps an immune response, which is an antibody, just as if I had an exposure to a virus, my body creates an antibody to it or, you know, just the way that vaccines works are that concept, if you give a small little attenuated dose, or whatever new ways they’re doing it, you get an antibody. So you’ve developed an immune response, which isn’t your inheritable immune response, it’s an acquired immune response, which now you have an antibody to. And the mimicry is very similar if the protein structure in wheat is very similar to the protein structure in your gut, in your brain or your skin, or wherever they may be. And you’ve developed an antibody to that peptide or the protein structure in the food source, because of a stress response, because of adulteration of our food supply and lack of minerals, now you’re creating an attack against your tissues. And that can cause fill-in-the-blank autoimmunity. So where I guess from a bear, take us wherever you want to go Martha on that?   Martha Carlin: Well, you know, I think if we go back again, you know, you hear a lot of discussions in, you know, in the last, say, four to five years about something called leaky gut. And, you know, part of that mechanism of activating the immune system is when these are crossing the gut lining, because it’s quite leaky, well, if I, if we go back and look at the bacteria that, you know, that we find more prevalent in the Parkinson’s get, there are several organisms there that produce something called pore-forming toxins or different kinds of toxins. And what those toxins can do is no form little holes in your cells that can affect, your gut lining. And so, you know, that’s just kind of another piece of that puzzle, that is exacerbating that, you know, vicious cycle loop from the gut, the immune system, you know, the over-activation, and the, you know, dysregulation of everything in the microbiome. And, you know, we tell, you know, I say, I knew instantly, you know, when I read that Parkinson’s paper in the book on the antibiotics, that, you know, that was just such a eureka for me, that my training is as an accountant, and the gut is the general ledger, I mean, it is that record, and we can start to see, especially, you know, when we have this very detailed genetic information, you can start to, you know, map these pieces of the puzzle, you know, back into the contributing factors to, you know, what’s going on, not just with Parkinson’s, I mean, it’s evident, you know, across diseases in our data. And we’ve looked at that, in, you know, we’ve looked at IBS, we’ve looked at smokers, we’ve looked at cancer. So, you know, I think what we’re going to see as this field continues to emerge is, you know, an incredible acceleration of understanding how these things are impacting the gut bacteria and how important I mean we’re more microbial than we are human in terms of how we function. And if we don’t have that functional diversity, you know, we can’t we can’t be healthy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, I love it. I have a quote down the gut is the general ledger. That’s an awesome quote, and as far as a couple of things that I think about it again, as complex as this is, the solution is to get nutrients and minerals that we’ve been made to have and as best we can get them from what’s grown in our healthy soils. And you don’t have to be a scientist to just have nutritionally dense foods that allow our body to recognize that and not create stress alerts and not create antibodies. arteries and have cross-reactions and create auto immunities, but actually, get the food from our sources and let the body heal. That’s, that’s one thing I think about for people that are listening to sounds, you have something you want to add to that.   Martha Carlin: Well, I mean, so I really when I started seeing what was going on here and tying it back to my original digging into nutrition and food and how our food is grown, had a clear understanding that it’s going to be very difficult for us as a population, to fix our guts if we don’t also fix our food. You know, and I’m very fortunate, the chief scientific officer of my company, is a real jam. Dr. Raul Khanna was a professor of microbiology at Cal Poly for over 30 years. And he was a pioneer in using microbial ecosystems, you know, putting microbes together to clean up oil spills. And so we have another company outside of the bio collective called paleo biotic that took that has taken a collection of his ancient microbes that he revived out of amber occlusions and deep-sea cores and has combined those into agricultural products that we’re bringing to the market this year will be the will do a small scale test. But, you know, we have filed a patent for the bioremediation of glyphosate and soil and water using our microbial systems, and for improving nutritional uptake in plants, plant growth, all that because, you know, we’ve destroyed the biome of the soil. And all of that is, you know, it’s a chain reaction. So we must restore the soil, to restore the plant nutrition to restore the animal nutrition to destroy to support our new nutrition. And, you know, you can start growing some food in your backyard. And we were we’re doing a little sample on our biotic quest website where the product is called yield and shield. So in your backyard garden, if you, you know, are interested in trying a microbial solution to help support your soil health, we’re going to have that launched here and probably in another week.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Not it’s awesome. And that’s an I love the rabbit holes and just how you’ve gotten more bitten off more than you can chew when you start to realize, Oh my gosh, now it’s the implications on saving the Earth. And it is, from the point of view, you can’t just yeah, you could try to grow your food, but as a society and as a world you have to restore your earth to be able to get those soils back together and heal. So I love that, Martha, as far as you know, I don’t know if you stick around for the whole conference. But Dr. Pompa had talked about how when we had the oil spill in the oceans, and we had Chornobyl and we thought our Earth was and probably even, what was it in Japan? Yeah, Hiroshima, we feel that that will impact the Earth to the point of no return. But then we have this inborn ability of hormetic stress, right, where our body gets a little exposed to something, but it makes it stronger. And we found that it ultimately did. So I guess the question is, how much does hormetic stress, even though the fundamentals need to be replaced? Does that impact our ability to deal with this so that it’s not like the sky is falling? And we’re forever past that point of no return?   Martha Carlin: Sure. Well, you know, if you look at something like whether it’s Chornobyl or Fukushima, you know, it’s a, it’s an aggressive assault, and then stepping back from that, and so the ecosystem rebounds, you know, through a selection and you know, microbes evolve much faster than we do. So they’re able to, you know, evolve and figure out what needs to be done and help restore the ecosystem better when we just leave them alone. Where, you know, where our biggest issue we have, I think, is still this you know, on our food supply side, it’s, it’s still this sort of, oh, you know, these chemicals we’re using or not a problem. And so it’s not hormetic stress, it is constant stress. So, you know, the hormetic stress is like, I’m going to, I’m going to, like push you or I’m going to fast for 48 hours or, you know, something like that, as opposed to constantly assaulting my system, you know, with something toxic. So I do think we have to be, you know, very thoughtful in the, in what we put in our body, we are made of the molecules we eat. And so, you know, when you’re putting something about to put something in your mouth, you should think do I want to be made of this. And, you know, one of the things I talk to people a lot about is sugar. Because, you know, glucose and fructose are, you know, such damaging molecules in the way that we’re ingesting them. And I know, you talked to Morley Robbins about how fructose blocks copper uptake. But, you know, one of our key markers in Parkinson’s again, is, you know, this glycosylation. And, you know, I know many people with Parkinson’s who have, you know, sweet tooth, sugar cravings, their car bloaters, my husband was a marathon runner, so he was trained to be a carbohydrate engine to run those marathons. And, you know, I think, just really starting to, to think about this lower carb, low carb living and what sugars are doing to us. And that sort of brings me back around to that the mannitol product that we made for John, I mean, one of the key things that we found from it, you know, I made it to make mannitol, but it alters glucose metabolism in such a way that we did a small study where people dropped fasting blood glucose, but 10 milligrams per deciliter over about eight weeks. And we now we have that in a diabetes clinical trial. Because I think, you know, sugar feeds cancer, sugar is a problem in Parkinson’s and neurological diseases. You know, glycation is an indication of, you know, aging. So all of these sorts of pieces, come back to, you know, what we’re putting in our body and sugar, certainly carbohydrates being one of those things that we need to be more mindful about.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no murder. That’s an awesome answer, especially as far as the hormetic stressor goes, it’s not meant to be constant stress. It’s meant to be a short exposure to be able to stimulate that homeostatic Allah stasis load in the body. And I love the other answer in terms of microbes. And bacteria are designed to do that their intelligence is to mimic what’s being exposed to them and account or accommodate for that. So that’s an awesome answer. And then I love how you’re going down the idea of well, how can we harness that, like, notwithstanding everything being equal like that doesn’t change the onus on us understanding what we’re eating and making sure that we work to change our soils. And really, I think even deeper purposes, have legislative changes as well, which is a is a Samsung or David versus Goliath type. But as far as so maybe talk well, I want to talk a little bit about that the sugar because I think that’s a really important point. And as far as what are you what is it that’s inherent in the product? And not just is it just the mannitol in the probiotic or are there engineered? Other you were mentioning other the lactobacillus like, what is in that product that is doing direct impact on glucose?   Martha Carlin: Sure. So you know, there are three primary organisms in the formula that do the conversion of glucose and fructose into mannitol. And that is a strain of bacteria that you don’t find in a lot of probiotics called Luca nostoc. mesin Troit ease that actually, that strain.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That three times fast. Let’s hear you say it right.   Martha Carlin: Yeah. Luke and I stopped meson Troys. It’s, it’s found in a lot of fermented foods. We isolated it from sauerkraut from cabbage. It grew in my garden, and fermented and stored for over four years before we isolated that organism, It has lactobacillus Rudra, which is also an oxytocin producer. And Reuter I also makes mannitol. And then a strain of bacteria called Bacillus subtlest, which is a spore-forming organism that also makes mannitol. But these organisms, so we have a computational model called Bio flux, where we can predict how these organisms work together. And what we see is we designed the formula to make mannitol. But it also increases the production of butyrate, which feeds the lining of the gut and supports that. It’s also altering something called siderophores, which is sequestering iron from pathogens and eliminating that from the body. The planetarium, strain of planetarium came from fermented elderberries from my neighborhood. And so we’ve tried to look for and select strains with genetics, natural genetics, so none of our organisms are engineered, that, you know, have those functions that we see that we need, and then we put them together and run them through our computational model to make sure that, you know, as a group, they’re going to collectively do what we want them to do. And so, you know, that’s kind of it’s an eight-strength formula. But those are some of the key strains that you know, are powerhouses for us, there’s also lactobacillus Pierrick KCI. And I think that one also helps with the breakdown of proteins, which, you know, could also be helpful in Parkinson’s.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and listen, I don’t think it’s just helpful for Parkinson’s, you know, 88% of our population is metabolically sick. And ultimately, Parkinson’s, even though it attacks certain tissues in the body, it’s the same mechanism of being metabolically sick. And it’s the same mechanisms of the different strains that impact the physiology favorably, that would help anyone and I’m excited about that, for sure, especially the oxytocin just as an aside, when we do genetic test interpretations, one of the main genetic tests, snips that we look at is the oxytocin receptor. And when people have polymorphisms, with that, they tend to be more empathetic people. And I always explain that as the first thing that I explained when we go through a genetic test interpretation. Because when you have the antenna sticking out of your head a lot more and it’s bringing in all these frequencies, it’s going to drive that oxygen consumption rate super high. And if you’re not respiring, at the level you need to, and you’re fermenting glucose. And that’s creating all the things that we’ve talked about, given that your microbiome can’t do this, that, and the other. It’s going to make things a lot worse. On top of that what’s amazing about oxytocin is it suppresses the NADPH oxidase that creates the free radicals that create the mast cells that creates the histamines. I love the idea of fermented foods. You know, unfortunately, a lot of people that have these major gi challenges, it’s a catch-22, because they are already fermenting from a biological point of view. So any other foods that they get that are fermented typically kick that ocean floor, and I know you got to say something here in a second. But at the same time, the fermented foods, if you look at longevity, Barians, or blue zone countries, I think they’ve worked it into their dietary supply to have the microbiome to be able to deal with the fermented foods. And instead of that could be another general ledger, as well in terms of if you can tolerate fermented foods, you know, you’re on the surplus or you’re in the black and if you can’t tolerate it, you’re in the red right? Does that make sense?   Martha Carlin: It does. The only people that I’ve had that have had an issue with the sugar shipped product are people who are super sensitive to FODMAPs. But you know, the way our product works, you know, a lot of probiotics are using new capsules and designs to try to get it past the upper GI tract and down into the colon. But I, you know, because you’re eating the sugar up here, and so many people have SIBO small intestinal bacterial overgrowth You know, you want to get those sugars out before they get down to feeding, you know, the SIBO organisms. So, you know, for the most part, people don’t have it a challenge with the product even though you know, mannitol is a sugar alcohol, it’s making a small amount of it. But you know, you’re doing this conversion and, you know, helping to address I think, the feeding of the sugars in the upper GI tract. But you know, what I do tell people if they’ve got a high level of fermented food sensitivity, they need to deal with that, first by, right, like, addressing the pathogens in their biome. But you know, one of the interesting things in the data when we did before and after, you know, first off, John, and then another group of people who took the product is streptococcus. Going back to some of my observational stuff, and talking with people with Parkinson’s, people with Parkinson’s, quite a few of them had this history in their childhood, of having frequent strep infections and taking antibiotics a lot. And so that was sort of interesting to me, I looked at. So I talked to 23, and I and they also looked at their data, and there was an increased risk of Parkinson’s disease in people who had had four or more strep infections. Dr. Scheper, Hans went on to show this correlation with antibiotics. And strep is also an interesting organism. And in minerals, and iron, in particular, it uses its iron to feed crossfeed. Some other pathogens, I’m probably going way down that rabbit hole here. But the preferred food for streptococcus is glucose. It loves to grow on glucose. And what we found, in our before and after testing with the sugar shift formula was that streptococcus was almost disappearing completely. And when we did machine learning with all of our samples across the population, we found that people who had more than 1% relative abundance of streptococcal species in their gut, were in some kind of disease category. They weren’t all in the same disease category, but the healthy people, had below 1% streptococcus in their gut, so this alteration, you know, I say, like, you know, we design a formula that is not just putting in a bacteria, but it’s altering the landscape of the gut. And, you know, that’s what our focus is to put a working system in place that can both deliver the metabolites you’re looking for, say, butyrate, or energy production. But also transform the landscape that makes the ecosystem there, you know, better for a better flora.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that is the truth. So harnessing the hermetic consequence, or the effect of stress and putting that into the microbiome, it’s I almost think of it as calling a harmonizer. Because we have a friend, I have a friend that has, he owns Sparrow massage, and they have a harmonizer for EMF, so it doesn’t block it. it harmonizes it to change the frequencies so that it’s not deleterious to us. That’s one thing. But as far as part two, because Martha, we got it, we got to not, I’d love to go forever. We definitely will do part two, if you’re willing, because I have so many more questions. This is much richer than I had anticipated. So I know that on top of the correlations, I think part two would be okay, now that we’ve talked about the microbiome, what other correlating, epigenetic, or genetic factors have you seen, and I think you and I hopefully found something together in that, Hey, there’s this antibody to parietal cells, or this B 12 thing that is copper-dependent and or needs a lot more has a lot more expression. There’s also the fact when you and I talked initially, you were telling me he was a marathoner. And I was thinking about, well, I bet you he wasn’t doing it aerobically, meaning he’s highly conditioned, but he’s also charging his anaerobic energy systems to be plastic. plasticized, if you will, and being taught to go down this pathway. So when you feed it with sugar and you put in the glyphosate and you do all these other things. It’s that perfect storm. And then, of course, the genetic susceptibilities as well. So, so many things, we can go with that. And I’ll allow you to have a comment here in a second. The other thing I wanted to do or talk to you about was, I mentioned to you Hey, like, I also have a lot of clients that have these perfect storm issues. Have they also have not the ability to lower glutamates? Or they can’t lower histamines. Is there in the foreseeable future? Putting that all in one product? Or would it have to be complementary Martha and have like a couple of different products? Like what’s your thought process on that?   Martha Carlin: Yeah, you know, I think we could, we could certainly look at that, you know, our model is set up in a way. So you know, if glutamine is the target, and you want to figure out how to sort of clean that out and get rid of it, we can identify, you know, organisms that can do that. And, you know, look at, you know, can that can you have a one size fits all? Or do you have to kind of take some steps along the way? And, you know, what, you know, one of the other things to look at is, you know, if, if there’s a connection to what’s in the microbiome, and how do you kind of alter the landscape to get rid of the problem that’s there, to enable, you know, what you’re putting into work better?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I also think you’re right to in terms of, I didn’t mean to say like, oh, the people that have an issue with fermented foods, shouldn’t take the sugar shift product, I think more it’s more of a tale of the constitution like this is I always say to people, excuse the language, this isn’t a friggin magic wand, right? Like you still, you don’t absolve yourself of the responsibility of removing processed foods and sugary foods and making sure that you settle down inflammation and you restore your mineral balance, get your magnesium levels up and you remove all the things that are draining your bio, but you all the things that you and I know with our with morally, so I guess in in in concluding the number one because I do want to do number two if you will, I always ask my guests, because there are so many things we haven’t talked about, what would you like to have known because I call it the truth about health podcast, because I think there are a lot of lies and deceit and bad, nefarious reasons for doing things and all profit, steer profit, you know, in the name of profit. But with that, without that being said, Martha, what do you wish you would have known then that, you know, now that you might have implemented in yours or John’s Health to avoid or at least maximize the constitution to not be so I guess, susceptible to something like, like, like a Parkinson’s?   Martha Carlin: You know, I think just very early on, I wish I had deeper knowledge about the food and the chemicals that were in the food. You know, I look, my, my oldest son who works for me is in his 30s, and he has a lot of allergies and inflammatory issues. And, you know, I looked back at, you know, when he was little, you know, eating Kraft macaroni and cheese, and, you know, things that, or, you know, cereal, you know, there’s just a lot of things about the food that, you know, I was just ignorant. And so I think that is the one thing that in the, in the water, so when we started looking at the water and filtering the water, and, you know, making sure that we’re taking minerals because we’re now filtering the minerals out of the water. You know, if I had known what I know, now, 25 years ago, you know, maybe none of this would have happened. But, you know, hindsight is 2020 and, you know, I’m on this journey. And, you know, sometimes John and I talked about, like, we were brought together in some time, I’ll tell you that story. Because it’s a pretty amazing story. You know, we were brought together on this planet to make a difference. And you know, I say it with all honestly I feel that I’m here to save the world. And you know, I’m doing that through the soil and the human microbiome and through you know, all On my mission to educate people and help people to understand we do have the power to heal ourselves. And we have the power to say no to what’s being pushed at us. And, you know, we can take back our land and our lives and our health.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome answer. And I’m glad that our frequency is aligned and gotten to coherence because I’m on board to help in any way that I can. I think part two will entail water, the story of how you met John, and then all the other things that we have in terms of other epigenetic, perfect storms if you will. But I agree with you, Martha. It’s never a curse, in that you have this ailment or affliction because what comes out of it is, is better is the world benefits. But also, you’ve come closer and you’ve developed things that are helpful for John and continue to because I’ve liked the term healing or Parkinson’s or life is a verb. It’s not a noun, right. So, Martha, thank you so much. I’m looking forward to part two. And I guess we could end there and set up a time for time to reconvene.   Martha Carlin: I appreciate you having me.   To save 20% on Martha’s revolutionary Probiotic use the discount code TRUTH20 by clicking here The post Microbiome, Energy Production and Chronic Illness | What’s the Connection? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

    Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their energy back quickly. And we’re joined by a friend and fellow present there Catherine Arnstein, who is the LG wellness expert and founder and CEO of energy bits. She is in the wellness nutrition beauty biohacking mitochondria and longevity industry. She is nationally recognized as a thought leader, seasoned corporate executive, experienced entrepreneur, and most importantly, sought speaker. She’s got her NBA BA and is a board-certified health coach. Catherine, I can go on and on. But we want to get to the interview. Thank you so much.   Catharine Arnston: Algae is the star of the show. I’m just, I’m just a voice for allergy. But thank you Dr. Joel for having me here. And it’s great because when I keep seeing you at conferences, we’re going to all the same places, which is exciting. Yeah, information that we’re on the right path, so we can help others.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, yeah, and it’s nice to share our unique area of background so that we fill in the shades of grey with the things that we’re learning and it’s all tide lifts all boats if you’re out go I guess the same goes and and so I always like to start off Katherine with with your own personal story and how you got into from being an executive into being the LG spokeswoman and, and health coach. So tell us about your own.   Catharine Arnston: Yeah, well, it was it’s quite a transition, although I’m finding that just about everybody in the wellness industry has a great story about how they got there, and mine is no different. As you mentioned, I do have an MBA, and I’m Canadian, although I’ve lived in the United States for 33 years. I live in Boston right now. And I’ve been here for that length of time. But I mentioned Canada because I had a corporate career and was doing well enough as my younger sister who I’m very close to in Canada 13 years ago developed breast cancer. Now I want to assure everyone, first of all, that she’s fine and cancer-free. But when she was preparing for her chemo, her oncologist who happened to be a woman recommended changing her diet to an alkaline diet because she said it would help with their healing. Now, they didn’t tell her what it was or why it was good for her. So the first call she made was to her big sister who loves her. I knew nothing about nutrition. But I’m a really good researcher, and I’m very motivated to make things you know, right in the world. So I said, I don’t know what this stuff is. But I will find out and turned out to be mostly a plant-based diet because of the phytonutrients and the chlorophyll that builds your immune system. So I did a lot of research, and she followed my advice, she got rid of certain foods, acidic foods, like dairy and processed foods, and sugar for sure. And, and she went through chemo and she did heal. Now in the process of helping her learn what to eat and what not to eat. I did a pretty deep dive for the first time in my life in PubMed, and NIH articles. And I read about 100 of them. And I read about 10 books, and they were all talking about plant-based nutrition and nobody was talking about it in the mainstream 13 years ago. So I thought, well, you know, I don’t have any credentials. But I’ve seen the writing on the wall. I think people need to know about this. So I gave up my corporate career of 25 years, and went back to school to study nutrition at the Institute for Integrative Nutrition was just a one-year health coaching certificate, but it gave me some background. And then I taught new plant-based nutrition for a year at corporations and hospitals. Anybody would let me in. And this is where my true epiphany happened that led me to algae. Because as I was teaching people the importance of eating more vegetables, they laughed at me and said, Well, you’re telling me the news My mother has been trying to get me vegetables since I was a kid. But it’s too much work. They’re heavy to carry home from the grocery store. They take a long time to clean cook to eat. There are endless arguments at the dinner table with kids’ husbands. So I thought okay if everyone knows the importance of the plants and the veggies and the nutrients in the plants, but it’s too much work for them to cook them and eat them. I need to find something that’s fast and easy that gives them the nutrition that they need. So back to the drawing board. I went I looked at everything that I had found for my sister and took months before I circled back to algae. And that’s when the miracle happened. Because first of all, algae is the most alkaline food in the world, we can talk a little bit if you want about the importance of cellular pH and how it has to be skewed slightly to alkalinity or you attract cancer, which is why my sister’s oncologist and recommended an alkaline diet. Algae is also the most nutrient-dense food in the world. That’s not my opinion. We have a quote from NASA that says, one gram of algae has nutrition equal to 1000 grams of fruits and vegetables one to 1000. And we’re going to talk about how that kind of concentration can exist because microalgae are microscopic, something like a million cells would fit on the head of a pin so you can start to see when you gather them together and these little tablets that we have that we make available. Why it’s so concentrated, so alkaline, concentrated nutrition. It’s got the highest protein in the world, the United Nations has endorsed it since 1974, which is almost 50 years as the answer to world hunger. Because spirulina algae have three times the amount of protein a steak, and it’s a complete protein as 18 of the 20 amigos. Also, algae are the most studied food in the world. Two important points there. First of all, it’s food. It is not a supplement, it is grown in freshwater, I’m showing dual, some pictures of a couple of algae farms. This is the spirulina farm. And this one’s a chlorella farm, which are the two algae we’re going to be talking about today. You can’t show me a supplement farm because they don’t exist. And the reason I mentioned that is because most supplements are made from extracts. And they’re made in factories using high heat. And the extracts don’t exist in nature that way, and I eat kills nutrients or scrambles them. So your body basically can’t recognize them and can absorb them. Whereas when you eat food, like algae, especially new, especially algae, which is the most nutrient-dense food in the world, your body recognizes it as it is bioavailable, and it gets to work. So that’s number one. Number two, the fact there’s 100,000 This is a big number, we’re not talking 550 500. Even 5000 100,000 means what I’m telling you today is been validated and it’s on a rock-solid scientific foundation. This is science-based knowledge. The problem is in America, no scientists like to talk to other scientists. So none of this science is made its way out to you to the practitioner.   In Asia, but not in the next point, algae has been used safely daily in Asia for over 50 years. The Japanese don’t leave their house without chlorella algae, which is one of the allergies we’re going to talk about today is a multi-billion that with a B billion-dollar agricultural crop. So it’s almost as big as the beef industry is here. And yet nobody in North America knows what it is truly, or why it works. I mean, you’ve probably heard of spirulina, maybe some of you put it in your smoothies, but you’re not sure why. Oh, you know, it’s good for you. But you’re not sure why. And you’re not sure exactly what it does. And I’m going to be here to tell you what exactly it does and why exactly you need to have it certainly at this time in our juncture in our society where our food is so damaged, and there are no nutrients and we’re covered with talk that you loaded with toxins. So when I found out that it was endorsed by international agencies, studied and documented by scientists use safely in other countries for 5060 years, where it’s a huge industry and the only problem with algae, two problems. One nobody outside of Asia seemed to know what it was or why it worked. And the quality mostly was pretty poor. It came mostly from Chithe best part which I forgot even dimension is that when it comes in tiny little tablets, I’m showing Joel these little containers that have some of our tablets in them. Spirulina which is a blue-green alga and chlorella, which is a green alga. These tablets are about the size of baby aspirin and each tablet has the same nutrition as an entire plate of vegetables. One tablet the size of a baby aspirin has the same nutrition as a heaping plate of vegetables that drumroll you didn’t have to carry on to the grocery store, clean cook, or eat because if you swallow five or 10 of these or even two or three if you want, you are getting all the nutrition, the plant-based nutrition that you and your family need to be healthy, and it’s effortless. If you can drink water, we have found the answer this is the ultimate fast food ladies and gentlemen. It doesn’t get any faster and it doesn’t get any pure. And I’ll tell you a little bit about why our LG is considered the best because you know it is pure. We do third-party lab tests and we only sell through doctors like Joel Dr. Joel and functional medicine and chiropractors we don’t sell through retail. So it’s if you’re looking for an answer to give you the nutrition that you need, in a way that’s fast and pure and safe enough for newborns. This is it. Spirulina for nourishment and chlorella, for building your immune system and pulling out toxins, and we’ll go into greater detail. So I am just so thrilled to share these two algae with you and your community because other places around the world, like Asia, have been benefiting from them for 50 years, and it’s your turn, it’s your turn to benefit from them too.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Well, the proof is in the pudding, you can’t say that the CEO of the energy bits doesn’t have energy with that answer there. So that’s, that’s awesome. As far as I want to rewind, though, I do want to go into what was it, Catherine, that I’m always amazed that you felt charged to help your sister when the doctor told you, hey, go into the alkaline diet, but didn’t give you the insight to it. But the feeling charged and leaving a career of 25 years. There are a lot of different things. So what was it that made you do that?   Catharine Arnston: Yeah. Well, I’ve always been, I always need to know why I’ve been like this all my life I and I love to read and I love to solve problems. And I love to help people. Just to show you how much I used to read when we used to go on a summer vacation, my mother would buy me about a dozen books, and she would have to hide them from me, but I would find them and read them. And then she’d have to go buy me another dozen because that was you know, I just love reading. So it’s ironic that I’ve turned into a bit of a scientist, even though I have no science background because I love to read these complex documents and be able to explain them to people. But what motivated me is like, I’m not someone who just wants information, I want to put that information to good use. And the best analogy I can come up with is you know, well, there’s two. One is if you owned a major piece of art a Picasso or a Van Gogh, would you just have it in your home? Or would you feel motivated to donate it to a, you know, an art gallery, or public art gallery where the world could enjoy it as well? And I’m the second person. So as I learned the important value and health benefits of plant-based nutrition, I felt that I was I had discovered something powerful. And it was my obligation to share it. It’s sort of like if you see someone drowning in a pool, do you jump in or not? And I tried to tell the universe to pick somebody else, you know, I don’t have a background in science. I mean, it took me so long to get started because I had to cross-reference, you know, 20 times every time there was some sort of biochemical or nutritional term because I didn’t have the background. But I don’t know, this is my path. I and I tell people I’ve never been so happy. I’ve never had so little money, but I am. So what gets me up in the morning gets me so charged. I mean, I have been teaching people about this now for 1212 years, and I am if not as excited about it. I am more excited about it now because now I’m confident about my math knowledge, I’m confident about my science, and I write so many papers. So I just felt that I had been picked algae picked me because it’s been around for 4 billion years. It’s the first life on Earth and I felt I had a spiritual path, a spiritual obligation somewhere, I made a promise I was gonna get algae to the world. And that’s what’s kept me going. And so here I am. Still do, right. Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And, you know, I think also to the when you say the stars in the moon collide, the fact that and you and I have talked about this, you know, at the conferences where traditional medicine it’s great that a smart oncologist that can make a difference with your cancer diagnosis is telling you a blanket statement of doing something but doesn’t have the power behind it in terms of taking you to know, make a pH diet but not really giving you the insight and then on top of that, having a whole culture in Asia that have embraced it yet. There is a whole culture in the West that hasn’t worked those factors into it to Katherine in terms of why like why is it not accepted here and why is it accepted there? And well, that opportunity as well?   Catharine Arnston: Well, you know, we can talk forever about the lack of nutritional knowledge of the traditional medical community and that’s a whole nother story and I don’t want to go down that path because that has negativity. I’m a positive livity person. But the main reason why I think, Well there’s a couple of main reasons why people in America don’t know about a boat allergy is it’s just not grown here in and it’s started The whole algae industry started in Japan back in the late 50s. And the 60s, they initiated it, and they had to figure out how to grow it for mass consumption. It was discovered in the late 1800s To have the highest protein. But it wasn’t until the Japanese and there’s a long story about why they’re the ones that did it. Nonetheless, that’s where the industry started. And that’s where it evolved. And after, you know, 10 years of them experimenting with it as chlorella. Then Korea, Taiwan, China, India, all the Asian countries started growing it and so when you’re in Japan, for example, you may be when you ride your bicycle to school, you go by multiple LT farms, when you’re riding the train to work, you’ll drive you’ll be going by a bunch of algae farms, it’s just part of their day to day existence, they put it in all of their foods, like we put chia seed and, and other things in all of our foods, but they put algae because you know, it’s the main crop there. So so we just didn’t grow up with it. We grew up with wheat and corn, and I live in Boston where Dunkin Donuts is the basis. So we were quite normal, you know, see Dunkin Donuts trucks going by, but we never see an algae truck go by, we never drive by an algae farm. So its complete lack of awareness is number one. So and my goal is to grow it here and turn it into a major industry. It’s already happening in other countries, but we’re very slow on the draw. But one good thing is a 19 2019. So about three years ago, the US government released the first algae Agricultural Act as part of the farm bill to encourage farmers to grow algae here, because even they have realized it’s the most nutrient-dense food in the world and is the most sustainable, eco friendly, and none of it’s grown here. So So that’s number one. Nobody here has grown up with it. But I point out to people, that algae aren’t new, it’s just new to you. And it’s no different than, you know, a few years ago, you didn’t know about chia seed, you didn’t know about key y, you didn’t know about matcha, you didn’t know about CBD or even collagen powder. But these were all things and food types mushrooms that have been used for centuries in other countries. But it took somebody to educate Americans about what it is and you know how to make a choice and start how to incorporate it into their lifestyle. So that’s one of the things that we’re doing. And the second thing is, algae, as I said, is a type of vegetable. So it’s not a drug, it’s not a pill. So there are no patents that you can get on it. So the biotech companies weren’t interested in pursuing it, I’m sure they’re aware of it. And food companies, if anybody’s had any experience with the food industry, you know that they never launch anything new, they wait for a little entrepreneur to discover something helpful. And you know, you know, we pour our US entrepreneurs who pour our heart and soul into building something and educating people. And then and then once the, it’s been proven as a that the consumers wanted and needed, then the food companies generally acquire them. But they never launch a new category, this is considered a new category. So that’s why it’s just not around the main one being it just isn’t grown here. So, people, you don’t know what you don’t know. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: right. No, it makes sense. I remember just the only thing I would think of us as algae as a kid. And before I knew what I know, was in the pool, where if it wasn’t properly clean, there’d be algae growing on the side of the pool or something like that. Yeah, right.   Catharine Arnston: Well, that’s probably a good segue to tell people what algae are and before I do that, I do want to let you know that algae only shows up when there are bacteria. So whether its algae blooming on your beach, closing the beach, or in your swimming pool, it’s because there are toxins there. On the beach, maybe there’s runoff from a chemical plant, or some people pee in the water or something. But algae is the cleanup crew. It’s just that it’s there after something negative has already entered the water. And so the algae kill bacteria. So they get the bone wrap, even though they’re the cleanup crew. But I will tell you algae is used in virtually every single water treatment plant in North America. For this reason, they run all the water through algae because it kills bacteria. But anyway, so So the thing about algae is that it is everywhere. And there are two main types of algae. One is called macroalgae and the other one is microalgae we’re going to be talking mostly about we’re only about microalgae, but let me tell you what macroalgae are. It’s also known as seaweed, Dulce, or kelp. This is the big stringy stuff that washes up on shore, high in fiber and high in iodine because it’s only in the ocean. That’s why it’s called seaweed, but virtually no nutrition. That’s what we’re talking about. today. We’re talking about microalgae, which are called microalgae because as I mentioned at the very beginning, it’s micro Got big inside something like a million cells could fit on the head of a pin, and microalgae everywhere. Seaweed is only in the sea. microalgae are in the rivers, the lakes, the streams, the soil, your swimming pool, and your aquarium, and it feeds everything. Now, there are 1000s and 10s of 1000s of strains of microalgae. But the two most well-known two are blue, green, and green algae. And one strain of Blue-Green Algae is spirulina. And one strain of chlorella, of green algae, is chlorella. And those are the two that we’re going to be talking about today. And these are the two are that are harvested as food crops in fresh water. It doesn’t matter whether you’re buying your chlorella or spirulina from Target or Walmart or us, they’re all grown in fresh water, not from the ocean. So if you read about toxic blue-green algae, that’s fine. That’s, that’s another type of blue-green algae. That’s not what we’re talking about today. These two crops, spirulina, and chlorella are freshwater. And of course, the quality of the water determines the quality of the algae, among other things. And so we grow ours and triple filtered Spring Mountain water. And then we air dry it without without high heat to preserve the enzymes and I made that decision. You know, when I started the company 12 years ago, and when we get to mitochondria health, you’re going to find out how important that is because there is a very important antioxidant called superoxide dismutase, which is a mouthful, also known as S OD. That is one of the few antioxidants that can get into the inner membrane of your mitochondria to protect your mitochondria DNA from free radical damage. And but there’s virtually no food source of this superoxide dismutase except in algae, and only if it hasn’t been dried with high heat. And virtually every other company uses high heat to dry the algae because they’re lower-priced, high-volume companies and they need to get to market quickly so they use high heat so so their algae do not contain any live superoxide dismutase. But getting ahead of myself there but anyways, so yes there spirulina and chlorella are the two main algae that are harvested as vegetables. It’s called hydroponic growth, lettuce, tomatoes, and even kale are often grown in water.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So good, Greg, good overview. Catherine, as far as my inquisitive mind wants to know about the different qualities of water. And given that it’s the cleanup crew, would it make the hormetic stress of maybe the not-so-great water? Given that its main definition of function is to clean up? Would it make it that much more robust? Or is it a problem from having? I guess the question is how, what can there be adulterations when they’re when we get concerned about the mineral concentration in our soils? And what do sprays and chemicals and fertilizers and disinfectants do with the minerals in our soils? Not all, not all algae are created equal. But my mind is thinking that if its main job is to clean up, are we going to get the benefit of the cleanup in that strengthened algae because of the environment it was born in? Makes sense?   Catharine Arnston: Well, I think I think you may I just want to clear up for you. And for your listeners when I say algae is the cleanup crew that’s in water in this sort of environment area, not when that’s that’s not what it does in your body. And that’s just what it does in water. And that’s why I want to be sure people understand the difference what the different out spirulina and chlorella. What the different chemicals, the different nutritional components because they’re quite different. And they do quite different things in your body. When the reference I was making to the water is just when it’s in the environment, not in your body. What it does in your body is completely different.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, but I wasn’t necessarily alluding to what it does in your body. Mike, my question is more about how was it made? How are the algae born? And what are the mechanics of that? And does the water that it’s born out of impact the potency or the strength of when it does go into our own body?   Catharine Arnston: Yeah, the things that so it’s like I showed you some pictures. Chlorella is more complex. I don’t want to spend too much time on the agricultural process because it ultimately doesn’t the more important parts of algae are the nutritional value and what it does in your body. The fact that your chlorella is grown and around the pond and spirulina has grown into a long, narrow one is not a critical piece of information. The thing that makes the difference in the quality of the algae is number one, as I mentioned, the water that is grown in. This is why I urge people to stay away from anything, any algae that are grown in China because they’re not as there’s not as careful about the quality of the water, and algae will absorb whatever’s in the water. That’s why you don’t want to eat algae from your swimming pool because there will be toxins in there. And even though there’s, you can’t see mycotoxins they will be there, I promise you. They’re not in ours because we grow ours in triple-filtered Spring Mountain water. And I found a lab that’s actually in Florida, that tests for mycotoxins and we never have them in our vault in our algae. Because our water is so clear, the number two thing that you need to be aware of, and this is almost impossible for people to check is that if the algae were dried with high heat, 99% of it is dried with high heat. Because 99% of the algae that’s out there is low, low price, high volume companies that most companies that sell algae tablets, or even algae powder, they usually have anywhere from, you know, 50 to 100 other products, they just aren’t watching the ball, this is all I do. I am 100% on board with algae, we sell nothing else and I spend nothing else, my time is only on algae and protecting it and nurturing it, and making sure it’s safe for our community, and learning more and more about what it does for you. So we are one of the few if only companies that I’m aware of that do not use high heat to dry your algae because I decided early on, I only wanted to make a difference in the world. And that meant having a high-quality product that meant having intact enzymes. So it’s almost impossible for you to find out whether somebody’s using high heat, but you can pretty much assume that if it’s if you’re going to Walmart to buy your algae, I can promise you it was used dried with high heat because it’s the financial business model just won’t work any other way. Number three is how when they package it, lots of these algae tablets are in our capsules. And I’ve got pictures where people you know, companies have been grinding up rocks and, and shells and just as filler, the end there could be other garbage in those tablets or binders. And so we don’t use any of those. Ours is one ingredient again, we do third-party lab tests here in America by an FDA-approved lab to prove that there’s nothing else in our algae except algae. And you could use so many things that could go into tablets or capsules, and they don’t have to b put on the label. And so it could be causing more damage than good. And the fourth thing is the packaging, you know, as chlorella or mostly algae have the highest concentration of chlorophyll in the world, we’re gonna talk a little bit about the importance of chlorophyll. But chlorophyll gets leached out by sunlight. And so you need to be sure that there whatever package your algae is coming in is leaving intact and you know, our bags or, or packages and boxes with you know, all the different varieties are 99% UV protected so, so between and there are different strains of algae, there’s a lower strain of algae that has less nutrition, nutrition in it and less protein. And we always start with the highest strains of algae, as I said, the highest quality water, no heat, no binders, and really careful packaging. And then we do this third-party lab tests, I think we’re the only ones and I’m pretty sure we’re the only ones in the country that do third-party lab tests here. We get lab tests from our suppliers in Asia, but you know, I have to be double, triple quadruple sure that what I’m giving my doctors to prescribe literally to their patients is safe for them. And it’s safe enough for newborns so so those are the things and I would like to also point out I personally in my company energy bits are the only we are the only ones educating consumers or practitioners about what algae are and what it does and providing the science I’ve read myself about 3000 at this point 3000 NIH articles and I’ve tried to condense them and you know, everybody else is selling stuff on Amazon and selling stuff and in you know, Walmart and wherever Whole Foods but who’s educating you, me it takes a lot of time to dig through those research papers and rewrite them and try to understand what’s going on because we found that people were loving our product, we feel like you know NHL teams and Olympic teams and marathon runners and, and it’s you know, I will go through you know why there’s good value in what we sell, but sometimes they will say well, you know, it was getting a little expensive. So we tried a cheaper version, but they always come back because they don’t get the same efficacy they had to use five or 10 times the amount I want to get the same value out of the smaller quantity because you know the enzymes were dead and the lower strain of algae wasn’t as high quality. I’ll, I’ll just do a little small segue, I got an email last week from one of our doctor’s wives, Dr. Joel, Joel Khan, who’s a heart surgeon knows, and he loves our products sells our products. And his dogs love them, too. They love the chlorella particularly. And so his wife emailed me and says, you know, it was getting a little pricey. So we tried a cheaper version from Amazon and the dogs refused to eat it. Even the dishes, I’m so glad my dogs have such great vision and they know a quality product when they see it. I thought that was pretty fun.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah, you know, cheap is expensive. And I do find that what you just went down and explained applies to almost all things on the market. And I won’t say that it’s apples to apples, because yours is not a supplement. It’s a food source. But even more important for a food source to be properly handled. So that you know what you’re getting is, is effective, which is a good segue to your talking about pH and tissue oxygenation, and the importance of alkalinity. So maybe we can start there, Catherine, in terms of first my question would be, how do the algae increase the pH? Or why is it increasing the pH? Or what is it doing inside our body? Once it’s treated so properly with the painstaking manners that you probably get? Get it into the people’s mouths? Literally? Yeah. And do you ever have trials where you suggest that your clients take their tissue, oxygenation with the pH, whether it’s saliva or urine, and do before and afters with your products to see if their oxygenation is going up? So it’s sort of a two-part question.   Catharine Arnston: Well answer the second one first, because that’s an easier one, we’re so tiny trials are not even possible. And quite honestly, we’re so inundated with so much pressing demands for answers. That, because there’s so much science about algae, I don’t need to recreate anything, there are already 100,000 studies documenting, and I’m sure there are different ones on pH, I don’t have access to everything, because it’s just the I think that’s part of the problem. There’s too much information about algae so so we will probably never do trials on that until we’re you know, a $100 million company and can afford to do that sort of thing. But you know, that’s not, you know, I’d be thrilled if when we get to that stage because I’m planning on building a big company. After all, there are a lot of people that need help. And I’ll get to the pH. Now, although I do want to be sure that I address the differences between the two algae because they are quite different than what they do in your body. And the way that they affect the pH is probably a little different as well. So I was so grateful that my sister’s oncologist recommended that she changed her diet to this pH, alkaline diet, and people may not even know what that means. So food, anything that goes on in your body affects your body. And there’s a scale of zero to 14, with zero being acidic, acidic, and 14 being alkaline. And whether it’s cortisol and motions as acidic food like dairy or processed food or animal protein it has an effect on it when it’s metabolized by your body. It affects the pH of your cells. Now, I’m going to talk about blood pH. And I’m also going to tell talk about cellular pH. Let me address cellular pH first. So your cells need to be just slightly alkaline which is 7.1 ph which is just slightly above that middle point between zero and 14. To be healthy, the reason you need that slightly alkaline is that that isn’t indicative of oxygenation being available in the cell, that the cell is functioning properly that the cell membrane is porous, which allows nutrients in and toxins out. And Otto Warburg is a German scientist who won a Nobel Prize back in 1941. He’s passed away since then, obviously but he wanted Nobel Prize for discovering that cancer can only exist in an acidic environment because cancer grows using an anaerobic process. And when you have proper oxygenation on your cell that your cell metabolism yourself, your cell respiration is aerobic. And you so your cells need to have that slightly alkaline condition to facilitate that and when They become too acidic because of either too many toxins or too much acidic food, which is or too many, you know, negative emotions which change the different pH, it’s an invitation for disease cancer, to start taking root to grow because it encourages bacteria, which makes the environment more acidic, it prevents proper cellular communication because the cell membrane is no longer permeable, it increases inflammation at the salary level. So maintaining that, you know, that’s that slightly alkaline state is very important to your health. And yet 99% of the food that people eat is acidic. Sugar is the worst, anything white, anything package, and you know, any dairy, you can’t live in a bubble. But yeah, and I encourage people to, you know, use the 8020 rule, try to be as healthy as you can 80% of the time, and go out and enjoy yourself, the other 20%. But regardless of whatever you do, because algae are the most alkaline food in the world because it has the highest concentration of chlorophyll, especially the chlorella, which we’ll talk about in a minute, it has this great neutralizing effect on your blood, and which we’ll get to in a second and on your cells. So even if you are not eating well, it will, it will introduce more alkalinity and bring you back to homeostasis, which is where you need to be if you want to be healthy. So that’s the sort of cellular pH. Now your blood needs to be even more slightly alkaline, it’s it needs to be at 7.34. And this is interesting, because when your blood becomes too acidic, you Well if your blood becomes too acidic, let me put it that way, you would die instantly, but your body is so intelligent, it knows that it needs to neutralize any acidity or you would die. And so what it does good old mother nature, it will pull minerals that are stored in your bones and your cells in your organs. Potassium, Magnesium, Calcium, to neutralize that acidity from the high, you know, the dairy and the meat and the processed foods. So but the problem is, it happens instantly, thank goodness or he would die. But if that happens over and over and over again, because I don’t you may not know but the bones Your bones are where most of your minerals are stored. Think of them as a bank for your magnesium, potassium, and all the other good minerals, and they’re alkaline. So you’re constantly eating acidic food, you’re constantly pulling minerals out of your bones, which can for women you know easily leads to osteoporosis. And it also is a drain on your immune system because it’s constantly pulling out important minerals like magnesium, which are used for like, over 3000 metabolite metabolic processes is pulling them out to neutralize the blood. And that drains your immune system so that you aren’t ready for defending, it’s not able to defend you as well as it could from any invader, which is why my sister’s doctor wanted her to have an alkaline diet. So this would not be happening to her. So again, algae because it is especially spirulina, spirulina is that I’ll tell you in a minute is a bacteria, it does not have a cellulose wall. Zero, it’s it. It was the first life on Earth. And they’ve documented that. So not only does it have a rich profile nutrient of phytonutrients and chlorophyll, it gets into your bloodstream almost instantly. And all the nutrients, the 40 vitamins, and minerals, and the high concentration of plant-based protein in this great enzyme called superoxide dismutase get absorbed instantly into your bloodstream to help neutralize any kind of possible acidity that may have thrown off the pH balance of your blood, and that there is nothing in the world that can get into your bloodstream as fast as spirulina. So it’s very restorative to the pH of your blood.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great explanation. I joke around where I’ve told this to clients before where think of it in this case in terms of the algae as your metabolic sponsors or your metabolic pimp that pays your bills. And now you have all this extra overhead that you weren’t able to be able to pay before and you start to see bone density increase, you start to see your your your mineral status go up you start to see your energy hence no GE bids, right? So it’s quite amazing. That’s a good explanation of what you gave us.   Catharine Arnston: I like to call algae, both of them your nutrition insurance because it covers you with 40 vitamins and minerals, the highest protein in the world highest chlorophyll in the world, it gives you everything to give you a base level of everything that you need. I mean, you could live on this forever and not have to need to eat anything else. We don’t encourage you to do that. But you could. The nutrient profile of spirulina is virtually identical to a mother’s breast milk. But, but it gives you so when you have you’re taking algae every day, regardless of what else you eat that day, the rest of it can be for entertainment, it can be for social reasons, it can be for whatever you choose, but at least you’re giving your body what it needs to perform optimally. And, you know, we all have health insurance, but this is truly your nutritional insurance.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a good way to look at it. And I think it’s good, where if what I wasn’t necessarily alluding to, for you to run clinical trials, I think it’s important because a lot of the clients that I work with, they’re frustrated, Catherine, cuz they’re told that nothing’s wrong with them, although they feel so tired that their blood tests are normal. And I think that you’ve provided so much good useful information about education. The other thing that I think could be helpful is for them to go out and buy pH strips, and measure that no one does this. And I was happy to hear that a lot of doctors at the forum meeting where you and I are thinking, well, it’s not as, as integrated as we’d like it to be as other conferences that we go to. But I was surprised to hear them suggesting to measure your pH. And that gives you a baseline of how acidic you are. I mean, if you’re tired and you’re exhausted, you got to already assume guilty until proven otherwise, measure your pH start to make a dietary change, and get more plant-based foods. But try energy bits and see your pH levels go up, which is just anecdotal. It’d be something for people to see. Yeah, they’re not always sure if it’s working. I’ve kind of feeling a little bit more energized. But I’m always a skeptical person and see objective markers. I’m sure it would change. So yeah, as far as if you want to get into the difference between the two algae. That’s been good.   Catharine Arnston: Yeah. Terrific. And the other reason why I call allergy or nutrition insurance is because the sad reality is, that our food no longer has nutrition, it has calories, and it has garbage canola oil. It’s processed food, but you can even if you’re eating organic, the soils are so damaged and overcropped, and we grow a lot of the produce in far countries Far, far away. So they harvest them before they’re right because they have to travel so long and sit in so many warehouses, so they don’t want them to be right. But that’s the ripening is where all the extra enzymes come from are all the nutrients. So you can be eating and in anybody who’s buying arugula these days, you know, have you noticed it goes yellow after about two to three days. That’s because it didn’t even start with much chlorophyll. In the very beginning. You could eat a roomful, a roomful of arugula. And you wouldn’t get the same amount of of chlorophyll that you would get from probably five or 10 of our little tablets that in fact, algae has 500 times more chlorophyll, then arugula, so So you need something if the food you’re eating isn’t giving you and I promise you, it’s not giving the nutrition that you need to be functioning mentally and physically optimally, you need something else. And the other problem is, that we have so many toxins in our bodies. I read a statistic recently that said, the average adult has 800 toxins in their body 800 our immune systems weren’t built to support that kind of toxic load. And so it’s a great segue because I want you to know that spirulina gives you all the nourishment that you need for optimal performance, and chlorella pulls out toxins. So let’s jump into it. So spirulina, as I mentioned, is a blue-green alga and it is a bacteria it’s called a Sino bacteria. No Celsius wall. Now, spirulina is known to be energizing, which is why we call our spirulina energy bits. Because it’s energizing from the high concentration of protein. It’s the highest concentration in the world. Ours is 64%, which is about three times the amount of protein and steak and it’s already in amino acids. Now when you eat animal protein, your body needs to break it down into these tiny bite-size portions called amino acids. And that can take two to three days for your body to gain access to the Aminos but with and then you have Colin gin which is in what’s called peptides, which are clusters of Aminos. But algae even up levels, collagen has got more collagen and collagen powder. And then you have algae which all air all the proteins already in amino acid. I tell people, it’s like a get-out-of-jail card free. I mean, it just, it, you can almost hear going whoosh as it gets into your bloodstream. So that’s the number one high protein and no cellular wall to get rapid absorption. The other amazing thing is it is loaded with B vitamins B vitamins are what convert glucose and amino, Manos, into energy. So that’s why you have this rapid conversion, although it’s not a rush or crash like you would get from sugar or caffeine because there is no sugar or caffeine. And actually, there are no carbs in either of the algae either. And so they’re ketogenic. They’re fantastic for diabetics and great for low blood sugar. Get in because they get into your bloodstream so quickly, they satisfy your hunger. Spirulina is also loaded with essential fatty acids like Omega three, a lot of people take fish oil, I can’t make the show I tried for years, but I would always be burping it up and you never get the repeat from the spirulina. Once you swallow that, man, that stuff stays down and you’re good to go. And, you know, I you know, a lot of fish oil goes rancid after you’ve purchased it. And I tell people, well, where do you think the fish got the Omega three from it? Well, they got it from algae, so they just consolidated it in their body. So you can cut out the middleman. Our algae never go bad. We have an expiry date of three years, but you get to keep it for 10 if you wanted. So between the high rabbit absorption, high protein B vitamins, and essential fatty acids, it also is boron which helps with synapses and mental coordination. Its releases nitric oxide, which is a vasodilator, which opens up your blood vessels so your blood can flow faster and bring rich oxygen and nutrients to your brain. So all of this is very energizing. Now, I will tell you it’s not energy like you would, you know be like a Superman or running a huge marathon. It’s in fact, you almost wouldn’t notice it. If you all if you were taking it before a workout, you would notice it because you would run further or run faster and you wouldn’t have even noticed it or, you know, if you’re a weightlifter, you would lift more and more lift longer and wouldn’t have noticed that the energy you get is what I call quiet energy. You just don’t fatigue. It’s like you just had a great night’s sleep and it never goes away. And you never have to have more of it to achieve it. The next day either you just just take it every day five or 10 tablets. If you’re anemic, do two or three we do try to recommend five or 10 to feel any difference. Although there is also no upper limit. We have NHL players who put 75 spirulina in their smoothie before every hockey game because they need access to that high energy. So spirulina is usually very good, we recommend you take it in the morning or the afternoon, you could have it as a meal replacement. For anybody who’s trying to lose weight, there’s one calorie per tablet. So if you had 20 it could be like a meal replacement for 20 calories, zero carbs, high protein for the vitamins and minerals. Lots of times when you go on a diet, you cut out a lot of some of your food groups and you also cut out quantities of foods very often you’re tired, and you start craving things. And the cravings are often related to deficiencies things that you’re not getting especially mineral deficiency. So that doesn’t happen when you’re taking the algae because you’ve got all the vitamins and minerals that you need. So it nourishing and could replace your multivitamin co q 10. Fish oil, magnesium, and potassium. So it’s not only efficient nutrition, it’s it saves you money and it saves you time. And one more thing I just want to put point out and we’ll get to it later in more detail is the energy that you get is not just the mental energy or the physical energy. This is probably more when Dr. Joel deals with with metabolic energy which is cellular energy. You’re in your cells you have something called mitochondria. And they are they’re called little organelles, little peanut-shaped things that generate what’s called ATP. ATP is what energizes everything in your body, your breathing, your heartbeat, and your digestion. Just every single metabolic process is energized by the mitochondria. And there’s an enzyme that I mentioned earlier called superoxide dismutase that is exclusively found in spirulina that protects the mitochondria from being getting damaged by free radicals. So this allows your mitochondria to generate more energy for you so that you aren’t fatigued during the day you can sleep better, can think better. And it’s a very, very important aspect of spirulina, it’s doesn’t this particular enzyme does not exist in chlorella, but it has something else that we’ll talk about in a minute. That’s good for your mitochondria too. So it’s, they’re realizing all disease, all aging is caused by mitochondria, DNA damage, everything. For the last 10 years, we’ve been talking about inflammation being the cause of everything, which it is, except now they’re realizing that 90% of that inflammation is mitochondria, inflammation. All roads lead back to mitochondria. And all roads lead back to algae. And I have some cool stuff to tell you about that later on. But spirulina, is very, very nourishing, very energizing, very satisfying, great meal replacement, and it’s safe enough for newborns pets, grandparents, and kids, it’s unbelievable. So everybody who wants to you know, make fill their nutritional gaps, and we all have them. This would be my salute my suggestion for sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And of course, without a do further ado going into that and what’s the big difference between that and chlorella?   Catharine Arnston: Yeah, so chlorella developed spirulina, by the way, it first lived on Earth 4 billion years ago, chlorella developed about a billion years later, and it does belong to the plant kingdom. So it is definitely in the vegetable world, whereas spirulina is a bacteria. So spirit, chlorella has the highest chlorophyll in the world. Remember I said spirulina has the highest protein. So what’s so important about chlorophyll? Well, I could go on for days about chlorophyll. But I’ll tell you a couple of things. Remember, we talked about the importance of your blood pH? Well, the other important thing is your chlorophyll you can see this, but the chemical composition of chlorophyll is virtually identical to the chemical composition of your hemoglobin. The only difference is that there’s an iron atom in the middle of your hemoglobin. And in chlorophyll, it’s a magnesium atom. So chlorophyll builds your blood. They’ve used chlorophyll for centuries for this purpose for injuries for surgeries. Even as recently as World War Two, if they ran out of blood for transfusions, they would give the injured liquid chlorophyll because it would build their blood. So that’s number one because your blood is your highway of, oxygen, and nutrition. And if you have healthy blood, you’re going to have a much healthier body. Number two, chlorophyll is a fat-based pigment. Remember, I mentioned earlier that you need healthy men’s cell membranes to have a healthy cell. And those cell membranes need to be porous so that nutrients can get in and toxins can get out. And we’ve always been told to take Omega three and d3 and vitamin E because those are healthy fats that will keep the cell wall porous. Well turns out chloric chlorophyll is also a fat-based pigment. And I discovered that because I would take Spirulina and put it in a bowl with water, the beautiful blue pigment would disperse evenly through the water. But when I did the same thing with Clark, chlorella, the chlorophyll wouldn’t disperse, it would just clump. I did this probably 20 times until I checked my science. And sure enough, turns out chlorophyll is a fat-based pigment. And the reason why you need to know that is that it heals your cell walls as well as a mega three and d3. And you know Joel and I are on the same boat about you know, telling people maybe d3 is not so great, as we’ve been told it is. But and so the way the best analogy I give to people is that you know when your windows are dirty, you can’t see out and sunlight can’t get in. And so think of chlorophyll as window washers for your cell walls, it keeps everything healthy so that nutrients can get in and toxins can get. So that’s number two about chlorophyll. Chlorophyll is also very just generally cleansing to the colon, and there’s a lot of colon cancer. So this helps correct that. The other amazing thing about chlorella, which makes it different from spirulina is that a hard cell wall never spirulina has no cells as well. Its chlorella has the hardest cellulose wall in the plant kingdom and that hard cell wall attaches to toxins. It’s a key later, it pulls out led Mercury radiation, aluminum, which is in vaccines, by the way, it pulls out alcohol. Wine beer doesn’t matter what it is. Alpha athletes love it because it pulls out lactic acid. So we work with biological dentists because they use it to pull out Mercury when they pull out any other patients’ fillings. The United Nations use chlorella when after the Chornobyl disaster and also at Fukushima because it pulls out radiation so chlorella will pull out anything spores from mold. Lifetime. And by the way, it’s not just the toxins in the outside world, although there are gazillions of those, your body is constantly remodeling itself every day, you have 30 trillion cells that die in your body, and that’s a good thing. Because your body is constantly changing. That means that if you have a health condition, now, you can recover, because your body will rebuild you have to give it the good building blocks, it needs to make sure that that journey is a positive and has a positive outcome. And algae is certainly a way to do that. But what I want you to know is that when your bones are rebuilding and your organs are rebuilding, and your stomach lining is rebuilding, where do you think the old stuff goes? Well, you got to pull it out, you got to remove it because dead cells are just as toxic as other toxins. And I remind people, you know, if you don’t take the garbage out from your house, for a couple of days, it starts to get pretty smelly. While the same thing happens in your body. Think of it as a goldfish bowl that you haven’t cleaned out, you need to be constantly cleaning out those toxins, but that have been generated internally or from external sources. So chlorella, because it’s a natural detoxing agent and loaded with chlorophyll, which is cleansing. Taking it every day is like showering your body from the inside. You know, we all take showers on the outside but take chlorella every day. And I encourage people don’t just dabble with these elders and take them every day, I promise you, you will be so grateful in five or 10 years or even, you know, five or 10 months when you’re feeling so much better. So that’s one of the other important things about chlorella. It’s a detoxing ag alga. It’s a wellness alga that has high in chlorophyll. It has the highest RNA and DNA in the world, which helps your body and your cells regenerate healthily. And because there’s it’s a cellulose wall, that heart cell wall has fiber in it. And fiber is necessary to feed your gut biome so that it can, the bacteria can generate the short-chain fatty acids which help with your gut biome and your mental health. So it has so many other nutrients in it like the highest tryptophan in the world, which is the precursor to melatonin and serotonin. You know, I don’t want to go on forever and ever. But so chlorella, is a wellness alga, healing algae, a cleansing, algae detoxing. And so we recommend it You mean you can take it anytime a day, same with the spirulina but definitely before bed, because your body goes through a detox and repair cycle when you’re sleeping, particularly in your deep Alpha sleep. So if you have chlorella, in your body while you’re sleeping, it’s like you’re getting your beauty rest and you got the cleanup crew and they’re clean, you know, getting rid of all the old dead cells and fixing some of the DNA and RNA I know it’s a bit of you know, simplicity but it also stimulates peristalsis. And let’s, which is bowel movements, because elimination is part of the game, you’ve got to put good stuff in and you’ve got to get rid of the bad stuff. And when that process is working, then you start to achieve more homeostasis, and you’ll just have more energy in general, so it’s, so the two of them work quite beautifully together. We created another brand called vitality bins, which has the two of them blended, if you could only buy one bag, but if you can buy them separately, it gives you more control because if you’re hungry and you want energy, that’s only going to be spirulina, if you are having a health condition and you want to pull out toxins and you want to have you know, got lime or that’s only going to be or you want to pull it lead or mercury whatever. It’s only going to be chlorella. And by the way, I’ve read in several studies that say that its chlorella detoxing ability of it is elevated when you eat it with cilantro. I don’t know why, but it does. So it could be cilantro oil, it could be cilantro, raw. And the other thing I would like to mention is that chlorella tastes pretty good if you put sea salt on it. I love to eat mine with. I’m big on Mac, and pistachio nuts these days. The pistachios have a flavor with salt and vinegar, or macadamia nuts because both those nuts have very few lectins and oxalates. And by the way, for anybody concerned about lectins and oxalates, there are nine in the allergy. lectins and oxalates are types of sharp proteins that are found in many plants like kale or spinach, or even almonds, quite honestly. And the plants develop these as defenses to stop predators, bugs, and animals from eating them because they taste bitter when they eat them. But algae didn’t have to develop those kinds of defense Because initially it was it originated in the ocean. So it’s never been and never will be a plant-based organism so it doesn’t have any lectins and oxalates. So, anybody who’s carnivore or paleo, this is for you too, because a lot of people do go that route when they want to avoid them, what’s called the negative nutrients in some plants. So So you know, if you take them separately severely in the morning or the afternoon, anytime you have a lull in your energy or your hunger, great for meal replacement, great for intermittent fasting they will not interfere with your fast they’re both ketogenic both zero carbs. Both have 40 vitamins and minerals. But one is energizing alga and one is a healing, cleansing detox algae.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, great, great answers, I guess it’s safe to say the Japanese knew something about the algae that were was early-adopting for us Westerners for sure.   Catharine Arnston: yeah. Well, I point out that the Japanese have the best longevity, lowest cancer rates, lowest obesity rates, and great skin and hair. And they take it every single day.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So so as far as the doctors that you you sell to? Well, two parts of the question, are they giving you feedback on whether the spirulina or the chlorella is more of a mover than the other one will? And then the second question is, why did you adopt the business model of just only approaching health care providers?   Catharine Arnston: Yeah. Well, I don’t have an answer. For the first one. People buy them for different reasons. If you’re looking for filling nutritional gaps or improving your energy or getting your kids the nutrients that they need without fighting with them to eat vegetables. You know, maybe spirulina is the answer. If you’re an athlete, and certainly spirulina is the answer. If you want mitochondria health, spirulina is the answer. If you’re wanting to support your immune system, and pull out toxins to improve your sleep, chlorella is the answer. So everyone’s got different purposes. We sell, quite honestly, we sell its neck, it’s a horse race, they’re neck and neck, usually, people buy both of them. Or they buy the one called vitality bits, which is blended because we need both of them, you need to get rid of toxins and trash in your body. And you need to improve your energy at a cellular level and your mental and physical level. So that’s number one. The reason I chose to go this way is that it all comes down to why I started the company. I didn’t have plans to start a company. I just wanted to help my sister. That was it. That’s all I wanted to do. And then when I learned so much about plant-based nutrition, I thought, as I said, I felt this obligation to you and somebody that nobody else was doing. And I thought well, I’m gonna give it a try. And then when I started teaching and saw the problems people were having, with time and not being able to get access to vegetables, it was just, you know, it was just not happening. I get I’m a problem solver. I like solving problems. You give me a problem. And I am just the happiest girl when I find a solution. But this was not an easy solution. I mean, it’s taken me 12 years because then once I found the science, then trying to figure out how to explain it. So two things happened. One is when I started working, I was invited to my first chiropractic conference about six years ago, Dr. Pompa invited me and I had previously been working mostly with athletes up until then, and they, they weren’t really so concerned about the science, they just want to know if it worked. So when I got to the chiropractic conference, they were interested in the science, and as someone who has spent a lot of time researching the science, to be to have a willing audience to learn to listen, not just listen but to learn and to appreciate the science, maybe found feel like I’d found my home. So I started pursuing them a little bit more. And then I also realized, well, this is the this is where I want to be anyways because I’m not doing this for money. I’m doing this to help people be healthy. And since then, with the COVID and everything. Thank God more consumers are taking their health into their own hands, and they’re realizing there are more non-invasive solutions, more gentle nature-driven solutions, and where people like you will give them more hands-on care, you know, so I like the thought that my product is being explained. It’s one-on-one to someone I’m not looking for, you know, dominate the world and meet me maybe one day, but I only once the knowledge of algae has reached a level where it’s hit the mainstream because you’ve got to explain something new. And I love to explain. I mean, I could talk about science and help people 24 hours 24/7 I just absolutely love it because I know that this stuff works. And I am determined to leave this world better. This is my path. There is absolutely no question. I would like to do it a little faster. But I’m thrilled. I mean, we’ve turned down CVS, we’ve, I’ve turned down venture capital, I was on Shark Tank, although I didn’t do it because I you know, wanted their money because I would have turned it down even if they’d invested in it, but or wanted to, but I did it just for the visibility. I just want people to have a more open mind to understand there are safe things out there. If you go to the right sources, like practitioners like yourself, and you know, heart drove, you know, indie companies, I’ll I will say everybody in the Keto world of metabolic. We’re all you know, as passionate, most people are as passionate, maybe not quite as passionate as me. But you know, they’re right up there. We’re here to help people be healthy. We’re not big corporations, just trying to squeeze out an extra dime, and don’t care that it’s not good for you. We’re here to really make a difference. So, I’m quite happy where I am. It’s a slower road. It’s more work. But it’s me, this is my joy. So I just want more people to learn about algae so they can start benefiting from it. You know, I don’t know if I shared with you the fact that I mean, I’ll be 66 This year, I mean, I’m getting close to 70. And so I’m no spring chicken, I am the poster child for what algae do for you. So I’ve been taking it for 12 years, I couldn’t live without it. So I do want other people to you know, enjoy the same benefits?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, that’s great. I think that when, when there are so many wins in it, Katherine in terms of it’s a valuable resource that we don’t need that we don’t know about. And it’s untapped. And why do we not know about it? And I gotta, I gotta let the world know. And this is my mission. And I’m driven. And you can hear it in your answer. And so I’m excited to share it as well. So coming to a close here, I always like to ask our guests, the name of the podcast is the truth about your health. And so what truth about your health that you know, now, especially, I guess, with everything that we’ve talked about so far, do you wish you would have known when you were younger, that would have made maybe a difference? Or would have accelerated your learning curve or just made a positive impact on your body? Now that you know what, you know when you didn’t know what you knew?   Catharine Arnston: Yeah, well, aside from algae that which made a huge difference in my life and my sister’s life. I, like most of us, grew up assuming that the medical profession knew everything, they had all the answers, and they would tell me what to do with my body. And it has become clear to me, that is upside down. The person that knows what to do with your body is you. And unfortunately, there are some good medical professionals out there and out there. And they don’t intentionally try to harm you. But the problem is, their education is so limited, and it’s so undocked, they’re so indoctrinated by the pharmaceuticals and companies, and there’s no motivation for them to overtime, quite honestly for them and to learn new things. And I’ve also learned that they are not allowed to recommend things that don’t come under come with their clinical trials and nutrition just doesn’t have clinical trials. You don’t do clinical trials for broccoli, or, or algae. So I have learned, and it was a very hard lesson to learn. I kept assuming everyone knew better, had known better for me, and they don’t. And I also assumed they had my best interests at heart and they don’t. They don’t again, don’t do it intentionally, but the arse our society has structured the medical and the insurance world in a way that’s so profit-driven, that it squeezes out the personal touch and the personal needs. So I take pride now that I educate myself on everything. I question everything and I’ve learned to trust myself more, even if something works for somebody else, that doesn’t mean it’s good for me. Or, but until I test it. So it’s a, it’s a long road. But when you finally get to the blend that works best for you, that’s when your health will start to improve because you’re, you’re putting you first and you’re trusting you, if you just have to trust your intuition, if it fit, give it time. That’s the other thing. Just give it some time. These medical conditions don’t show up on a rocket ship overnight, they took years and years to develop quietly and insidiously in your cells, and then they start manifesting in pain or something and, once to get your attention. And once they’ve got your attention, now you’re panicking and you want to get rid of it immediately. Well, you have to unravel the cars and it takes a while and you know, people say well, you know, if you take it if you’re driving from New York to San Diego, and maybe you took a wrong turn somewhere along the road, you don’t, you just get back on the road, you don’t give up. So you’re going to hit some dead, some dead ends, and some things are not going to work. But don’t give up because you are worth it. And your health is worth it. And you can achieve it. Because remember I said your body is constantly regenerating, but it needs you’re the one that puts the food in your mouth and you’re the one that goes out for a walk and you’re the one that goes to bed at the proper time. So you’re in charge not to people in the white jackets.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s a great answer. And the body’s incredibly resilient. Like you said if you gave it the things it needs and you remove the things that it doesn’t so I appreciate the time and the insight you shared with us today Katherine, I will make sure that in the show notes and on our website and we will be able to get the listener the product if they want to get that and I know you’re nice enough to give me a unique discount link so they’ll be able to save money on that.   Catharine Arnston: So yeah, it’s not linked. Let’s come to the website energy bits.com And when you go into the coupon box, type in the word Dr. Joel, all one word, no spaces, no dots just Dr. Joel, Dr. J OEL all one word and you’ll get 20% off everything. Just the large bags are the best value get 1000 tablets in the bags. And using that quote from NASA said one gram of algae has the same nutrition as 1000 grams of vegetables. I did the math and figured out that you know one bag of our algae tablets for the 1000 tablets has the same nutrition as 551 pounds of vegetables. So the bag is you know a little pricey is $125 but with the Dr. Joel discount, it brings it down to about 100 But if you were buying 551 pounds of vegetables at $3 a pound that would have been $1,500. So it’s very efficient nutrition. And it will last a bag if you took 10 A day will last three months and will replace vegetables, snacks, meals, multivitamins fish oil, so you will ultimately save money you’ll certainly save time and you won’t have to you know to cook clean or eat as much as many vegetables unless you want to.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And not to mention factoring into that math Catherine is the cost of chronic illness and insurance premiums and testing and so forth and so on. So anyway, I could talk to you on and off for more and more but at some point we got to call it a show I appreciate your time and your insight and I look forward to seeing the future success of energy bits as you guys continue to grow. Yes, thank you so much. Catharine Arnston: Thanks a lot. Take care bye-bye To save 20% on your order of Energy Bits, use discount code “drjoel” by clicking here The post How to Explode Your Energy Circuits With The Power Of Algae appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health podcast, where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quickly. And today, it’s like I’m a kid in the candy store. Because SIEM is someone that I’ve been watching for a long time. I have both of his big books, and he’s got more books to even speak of. If you haven’t heard of him before, his name is seam land. He’s the author and content creator, public speaker, entrepreneur, biohacker, and health performance coach. He’s written several books, just like I told you about longevity and optimization for your health, metabolic a tough OG stronger by stress, the immunity fixes the mineral fixed. And he’s also now written another book called The NADPH, our circadian NADPH plus activation system. So seeing thank you so much for being here today. It’s a real pleasure to have you here joining us today.   Sim Land: Thanks for having me. And I’m glad to be here.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so listen, I love your intro story, in terms of your background in anthropology. And if I were to be completely honest with you, in my first year of university, I took anthropology as an elective, because I didn’t know what to take. And it was one of those times when it was an elective for me to show up to the actual class. And I didn’t do very well, because I wasn’t focused at that time. But can you tell us how that anthropology was a springboard to becoming the credentials that we just talked about for writing books on longevity and, and health optimization? How did that happen?   Sim Land: Well, I, the reason I took or started studying anthropology was, I was just very curious about human nature and human society, culture, and those kinds of things, all those things. And I started Yeah, like the anthropology degree, because of that felt like, you know, the right thing to satisfy my desire to learn about those things at that time, and doing the anthropology studying I, you know, sort of think about, okay, well, like what do I want to do in the future, actually, and that kind of, for some reason, I concluded that I would like to be like a writer or Yeah, like write books and or be an author, whichever, you know, form it ends up taking, and just like the medium that I enjoyed, and yeah, doing the college years or university years, I did start to write my blog about Yeah, biohacking and health initially was just, you know, very simple, you know, just different kinds of nutrition strategies and straining and they kind of be like very simple things, and just started to grow a little bit of audience from there, not like a significant amount, still very small. And then I did like, wrote, write a few books about a ketogenic diet, and started to sell that on Amazon, that kind of, like, yeah, that was like my first source of income online, and made me realize, hey, I can do this like full time, and do more like in more in-depth research and more thorough books, and those things. From that idea started to create YouTube videos as well. And that is where most of my audience came from, at that time, and YouTube grew quite well because I think I covered some topics that many people didn’t talk about, like, ketosis or cyclical ketosis and intermittent fasting, and mentioned things like autophagy. And you’re explaining what it is and how it works and refuting some myths about it. And yeah, I think that it kind of helped to springboard my audience because of covering this new novel topic that many people didn’t know about. Especially the details about it, and that kind of made me I like, initial like, my, let’s say, my brand or my audience was associated with this endeavor, the fasting, and otology which I think still most of it is what I’m most known for the metabolic illogical. And, but yeah, like, regardless, that was like what I started to talk about, but over time, I implemented more topics, you know, just general health saunas and exercise and yeah, more interactive longevity stuff as well by now and wrote several books on different topics like stronger stress, which was the book about hormesis and stress adaptation. And then I also started to co-author many books with Dr. James nickel Antonio, including the immunity fix, which talks about the immune system, and the mineral fix about minerals. The latest one was a win, which talks about actually athletic performance and exercise. And the next one that we’re working on right now is the obesity fix. So we’re gonna talk about weight loss and weight management.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Ya know, it’s an awesome breakdown of where you got to today, I could see how anthropology just in terms of the study of cultures, would naturally evolve as you continue to open up the next door and go through that, and then listen to what your audience is what resonates with them, and then continue to refine and, and get into where you got to. So thanks for sharing that. Just an obvious spectator question, though, seem How do you remain so productive? Because it’s, it is amazing to see how I mean, these books are thick. And you know, and just to mention, you have all these things on the go, I guess those are your bio hacks, but specifically in terms of just sitting down and get and crushing it and getting content out? What would you say, you know, what’s, what’s the secret to the success on that?   Sim Land: I think it’s a lot of having very good systems and routines and habits that, put it into here, like, you know, autopilot, almost, or making it very effortless. So I have like a system for writing and have a system for making videos and social media posts and whatnot. So I just stick to that routine. And, yeah, I do think that you know, a lot of it is yeah, just a lot of like, being productive deliberately of you know, wanting to do those things and doing them. And not like, you know, wasting time or something like that, of course, there are days where I don’t follow the systems and, but those are like, the exceptions because a lot of the most of the time I do enjoy it so much that I want to do it, like I’m so excited to write the next book that I won’t write it every day, and doing it, you know, quite many hours. So, yeah, it’s, you know, just being very passionate about what you do and excited about what you do that the work doesn’t feel like work. And it’s very, like enjoyable, it’s, you know, very, very useful to also, you know, have that work that you do a part of your life or it kind of meshed with your life in some way. So, yeah, obviously, you know, I think it’s a very, very good, quote, unquote, job, to take care of your health, and learn about nutrition and exercise and those things. So, yeah, I’m kind of, you know, happy that I’ve managed to create this lifestyle for myself, that prioritizes, you know, my health and being able to also share that information with others that I’ve learned.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think that’s one of the reasons that it’s so resonating for me is the integrity that’s there when you practice what you preach. And it is something that I can sense that you’re passionate about, and it’s not working for you. I guess the biggest success comes with that focus, just like if you had a Microsoft, magnifying glass, I know when I was a kid, I used to like to shine it and then make a piece of paper, go on fire because it’s so concentrated. I think the real lesson is in how you organize, and the systems you’ve come up with, to be able to consistently churn out content, just as feedback for me, my biggest concern is, when I start to do that, I get so overwhelmed that I wish I have so many things I want to put in there. And for you, it’s the same thing, I’m sure but you turn it out anyways and then say, oh, I’ll just, I’ll write whatever I want to write in the next book that I can include on there. So kudos to you. I’m still in like the seven books that are in my head that I feel I have to put in one book. But so So let’s kind of shift over into longevity and circadian rhythm. So as far as my demographic is the people that would listen to this identify themselves as having an adrenal fatigue problem, and I tell them, Listen, it goes more than adrenal fatigue, the adrenals don’t fatigue per se. 90% of the challenges occur outside of the adrenal system and all the feedback loops and communications. But besides that, I don’t even feel HPA axis is a good term, either be dysfunction because it’s just so much more involved than that. But the whole point is we do understand and most practitioners, whether they’re allopathic or traditional or alternative, understand that there’s a dying neural pattern or there’s a circadian rhythm with cortisol and it rises in the morning and then falls at night. But maybe you could start to explain how much more circadian rhythm is beyond just the HPA axis and why it matters so much.   Sim Land: Yeah, well, I think circadian rhythms are just the overarching rhythms of your body that govern everything inside that happening daily. There’s also like, you know, old ultradian rhythms that are longer than the 24-hour cycle, but the main, like, what happens constantly? All the time is the circadian rhythm. 24-hour cycle. And, yeah, they govern as you mentioned, the nervous system and the HPA Axis function, but also things like digestion, intimacies, activity, energy production, exercise performance, your body temperature, and blood pressure. And many of the longevity pathways are also linked to the circadian rhythm. And I think that you know, the circadian rhythms are one of the most overlooked and underappreciated aspects of longevity and anti-aging, which we can probably talk about a bit more in detail. But yeah, essentially, disruptions in those rhythms will cause or the reason why these disruptions are harmful is that they’re going to put like more additional stress on the body and inflammation rises, you have listened to this activity, and everything to get things started to like, go wrong. And the like. One other example of that would be shiftwork, which the World Health Organization does categorize as a carcinogen. So just being mismatched with the circadian rhythms, causes disease and being aligned with the natural circadian rhythm, which humans are like diurnal creatures that were awake during the daytime and asleep at night, that is where your body, you know, is synchronized and aligned with how it’s supposed to work, it receives the signals from the light environment, and that light will tell the body, okay, you need to produce these hormones, and you need to govern these other processes, so that you could stay healthy. This Yeah, like, just to kind of the rhythms themselves are yet like signals or processes coming from the signals that you receive, like different signals, like the light or food or exercise, they will just tell the body, okay, this is what you need to do. And this was, what the human body’s like, evolutionarily adapted to do, as well. And if you’re not aligned with them, then it’s gonna cause some sort of disease. I mentioned them.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, 100%. And I think that it echoes how important stress and just our day-to-day exposure, and our communication with the Earth have to do with adrenals and HPA axis and cellular function as a whole. And I know you’ve interviewed David St. Clair, and he talks about how aging is a breakdown of communication. And I believe that the frequencies and the signals that are happening on a level that we don’t realize, finely tuned and synchronized our body and it’s amazing, you’re right, it’s under-appreciated. And the great thing about it is it’s free. You don’t have to patent it. You can I tell my clients if you just go camping, and not glamping you know, you don’t bring your cell phone, you just go camping, do that for a week. And that’s probably one of the best things you can do for your body to get re-acclimated to the earth. As far as how would Where does NAD plus comes in and you said we can get into a little bit of the aging and so maybe tell our listeners what, is NAD plus and what does it have to do with circadian rhythm and aging?   Sim Land: Yeah, well, NAD plus translates into nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide. And it’s an enzyme inside the body that is also involved with everything you do. It’s like a currency that is being used to produce energy and regulate the immune system and DNA repair. The circadian rhythms are using that and yeah, like muscle function insensitivity again are using that and it’s like ATP almost, you need like NAD to shuffle around electrons and things like that. And with about aging, there is a drop of NAD that occurs with aging as you lose almost all like over 50% of your NAD you lose after the age of 40 Generally, low levels of NAD are associated with all the hallmarks of aging like cellular senescence, loss of proteostasis or otology and dysregulated nutrient sensing and The Genomic instability and DNA damage and telomere shortening, they’re all caused by low levels of NAD. And there are there aren’t like, you know, a lot of studies where they use NAD like, you know, extended lifespan compared to some other molecules and compounds. But they are still, I’d say, crucial for maintaining a good health span, which relates to just you know, being functional and being functionally fit for as long as possible. And when it comes to the, you know there are many ways to boost NAD levels, like exercise and interval fasting calorie restriction. Those are natural ways to do it. But one key part of doing that as well as the circadian rhythm alignment. Because you know, there are like a lot of these energy-boosting supplements that you can take like an Amen, and you get to the enema driver side. But the problem with only taking like this supplement is that unless your body’s natural, NAD factory or mechanism, the production line isn’t working properly, then you’re gonna just take the supplement, you may get like a short term boost in it, but your body is gonna excrete the rest, and it’s not going to start making it. It’s not like, like, yeah, you’re not making the body produce entity itself if you’re taking a supplement. Whereas if you have the, essentially the production working well, then you can also just help to recycle the entity all the time. So you know, you can get any different food supplements or have the NAD salvage pathway or the recycling of NAD working very well, and not exactly sure the percentage of the amount. But they do approximately that the vast majority of the NAD that you produce daily comes from recycling and research. So yeah, maybe like after 90% of it. That’s what I’ve heard 90% of the energy you have every day is recycled daily. And only like 10% will come from the precursors from foods or supplements. So you need to have the recycling pathway working properly to have high levels of NAD. And the way you recycle the NAD there is this one key enzyme inside the salvage pathway where you produce NAD and NADP T is what it’s called. And this name enzyme is circadian rhythm dependent. So it’s dependent upon a certain one, which is the circadian clock, Gene protein. And yeah, basically what it means is that circadian signaling is what will tell the body that it needs to turn on the salvage pathway. And I would suggest that you know, most of the entity gets recycled when you’re sleeping in because that’s what the body tends to do to kind of clamp all these repair and rejuvenation processes into the night in together with like melatonin and other hormones. And during the daytime, it’s just your signals the body that kind of installs this information in there of being aligned with the circadian rhythms and then enabling the body to also produce melatonin at night to govern all these repairs. But yeah, I think I’ll stop here for a moment. So the main idea is that the circadian rhythms will enable the cycling of recycling of NAD and keep your energy levels higher.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s a great answer. And I want to kind of link that to some of the analogies you use in terms of other recycling and the assembly line. And what I’ll add to that is the widget, which would be the end product, but also how fast that assembly line is moving. So when I talk to our clients, I always do that analogy of supply and demand. Just think of it as you have more demand than you do supply. And or I use another analogy in terms of having too many on roads to your highway and not enough off-ramps to your highway. And when there’s too much traffic on there, you need to you’re going to deplete your NAD. And you need to make sure you open up your off-ramp so that you can take the cars off the highway, so a lot of different analogies. But what increases the speed of that assembly line or the on-ramp to that highway is environmental stressors that I don’t think we ever really planned for in terms of EMFs pesticides, sprays, growth hormones, in our foods, plastics in the environment, enriched iron in our foods, fortification of B vitamins in our foods. I mean, the list goes on and on. And actually, it’s just a good segue. There was a guy that I talked to that invented the first-ever NAD plus testing at the last forum meeting and I asked him, I said, Well, how? How is that going to be a good predictor of the number of cars or how fast that assembly line is running? If it’s constant, and it’s always there. So I guess the question would be to use seem, do you see the utility and being able to test NAD plus or NAD plus to NADH ratios? Is it’s going to have high value? Or do you think it’s just a snapshot in time, that’s not predictive of the future and past? I guess the quality of your demand and supply in your body? What’s your feedback on that?   Sim Land: Yeah, I have had like some similar experiences that it’s very, very like sensitive to a lot of factors, like most of what he was going to reduce your energy levels are going to be like inflammation and oxidative stress. And yeah, EMF or whatever it is food, sleep deprivation, whatever raises, like inflammation, and causes DNA damage, that’s mostly going to burn through the NAD as well. And I do think that the results could like change very rapidly. So for example, I did like the test. Maybe like, yeah, like I did the test, my levels were high. And I did a test maybe. And at that time, I was like, you know, very optimally functioning. And I did the test again, maybe like a few months later, but this time, I wasn’t like, you know, very optimized, or I was like, a bit undersized. And those kinds of things. Because I think a lot of those. So my results were a bit lower. Because of that. And I do think that it’s kind of, yeah, it can be like very sensitive to the changes in your like lifestyle and what you’re doing daily. So I don’t want to tell you that. It’s something to like, you know, put a lot of long-term emphasis on it. Yeah, it’s maybe like a snapshot in a particular moment to know like, Okay, what am I gonna do right now, but it’s not going to tell you anything about long-term health changes, or it’s not going to be like a predictor of mortality, we wouldn’t just so more like the biomarkers themselves are more valuable, and definitely cheaper and more easily accessible. So I’d much rather focus on them. The same as the DNA methylation test that is used to assess your biological age. It’s also very sensitive and can change very rapidly. So it’s, yeah, more like a snapshot. So I don’t see as it does like have like a lot of like long term value. It can be like, again, used in the short term to know what’s your status, and health status in a particular moment, but not very practical in the overall long term.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I agree. I’m glad that you echo that. Because I do feel that there’s a lot of other great surrogate markers for assessing metabolic syndrome and which was interesting, you know, in your latest circadian NAD plus Activation System book. And it’s amazing how many references you have, like, there’s no BS saying it’s all validated through substantial reference material. One of the interesting things that I just wrote down quickly was, you quoted a study that said in between 1988 to 2012, there was 34% of the population that had metabolic syndrome. But in the United States, now, 88% of people have metabolic syndrome. And I think that there are great biomarkers like triglycerides over HDL fasting insulin, such as TLT. Other great markers that you can get every day that doctors aren’t looking at from the broad, broad ranges. But let me ask you, just your opinion on that between 1988 and 2012 34%. And I know it’s not the same cohorts that we’re testing, or maybe the same people, but then, you know, now 88%, what do you think so? Even if it were apples to apples, what do you think’s been responsible for that huge, dramatic increase in how many people are sick metabolically these days?   Sim Land:  Well, maybe it’s something to do with like a generational shift or something like that the older generation who was kind of healthy has died. And now there’s like the quote, unquote, like a new I don’t know, like Gen. Or Millennials or I don’t know who I don’t know exactly what how do they call these different generations, but yeah, like maybe this older generation who was you know, back from the old day where they ate Whole Foods and exercise a little bit or you know, be they spent like time basically like a pre-internet generation and pre creat this TV generation, those who have all died, and that like just increased the mean or the average rate of this Metabolic syndrome in the population. Because they, you know, everyone after that was kind of more the TV generation TV dinner generation and that kind of thing. So just I think maybe like, that could be like a sudden increase in that. But obviously, just the more wide accessibility of junk food in the environment. I think that’s the biggest cause of all these diseases, and not even like the lack of exercise, but I think the biggest one is just the food, the sheer excess of calories everywhere and in every food and kind of the ease of access as well. Like just the vending machines, Uber, Uber Eats all the Starbucks cups of coffee everywhere. So yeah, just people consume too many calories all the time everywhere.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a good anthropological answer for sure. I love it. You know what, I’m older than you. And we didn’t have cell phones. And we were just starting to get Atari and the television but you know, Amazon Prime delivered in 24 hours and just the 5g Let alone if there are six g pesticides and sprays, it’s just created an avalanche of huge challenges. So I like your answer. But I also feel that environmentally, I mean, I think it’s going to Estonia, you have more regulations about what you can put in foods and how you can spray the crops. And it always comes down to the almighty dollar, unfortunately, and I think we’re seeing huge shifts and, and health as a result of that. But back to what we want to talk about. You did mention in terms of the NAD plus that what I do, again, with Gene interpretations is now looking at sirtuins, and the sirtuins can tell the body Hey, the assembly lines working fast. There’s a lot of inflammation, a lot of environmental triggers all the TV dinner generation, not as much exercise not as much communication with the Earth, too many foods, and overconsumption of processed foods. And then they say NAD plus, in de novo factories, start making more NAD plus, tell us how we can do things naturally because that’s what you talk about between resetting the circadian rhythm and everything else in between. What’s the what can we do naturally seem to get those factories working at full throttle?   Sim Land: You Yeah. Well, you mentioned all these bad stressors, EMF and food, and pesticides and those things. Yeah, things that cause inflammation and oxidative stress, and DNA damage, generally will deplete NAD. And because energy is being used to kind of treat that situation, whereas all these different kinds of positive stressors hormetic stressors, as they call that exercise in order fasting calorie restriction. So when I called sunlight exposure to a certain extent, and there are different food molecules, because you know, hormetic food molecules, Resveratrol finds it in apigenin. Yeah, like its polar phenols, coffee, and green tea, those also help with their recycling and the salvage pathway. So they do it by turning on the fuel center called an NPK, which is like an energetic stressor, or detects energetic stress in response to we like usually physiological stressors. And that in turn also helps to turn on the amp enzyme to recycle the NAD levels. So yeah, all your healthy lifestyle habits. Exercise, I think is kind of the most underrated way of, as we said, the circadian rhythm is the most underrated. But exercise is yeah, like the most powerful, like anti-aging activity and longevity thing is more powerful than any, like any drug or any supplement that currently we have. And it has a huge impact on NAD levels as well. They see that older person who exercises have much higher levels of name in their muscles as well. And even they may have more EP T levels than, let’s say younger adults who don’t exercise. So yeah, just, you know, exercising itself is going to be one of the biggest ways to, let’s say, put the factory into overdrive or to start producing a lot more NAD both as you know, resistance training and cardio would do it but I would suspect that cardio and this kind of zone to cardio, as it’s called is very semi-low intensity, long cardio, that I think it’s going to be the best way to kind of produce more mitochondria for much, much Kandra biogenesis but as well like help to boost NAD levels. Then from the food side, the food is also like a cue for the circadian rhythms. And you don’t want to like you know, be eating at, like all hours or eating in the middle of the night, that kind of things that those will also offset, the circadian rhythm is disrupted. So humans are not supposed to eat when it’s daytime. And studies about Thomas eating do show that confining your eating window in a smaller timeframe has some health benefits. It’s not like superior to calorie restriction in terms of weight loss, but it can improve things like incidences of activity and upregulate different longevity markers like sirtuins and ontology more than just regularly eating over 12 hours. For example, as many people do, the average American, you know, eats over 15 or 16 hours. So that’s like not what I would recommend, I wouldn’t, I do think that it’s better to like wait a few hours after waking up and not eat immediately before bed. So have like a few hours from bedtime as well to finish your last meal. And then eat maybe like, you know, definitely like not more than like three meals isn’t necessary. So two to three meals within like a more like a smaller timeframe. And the circadian rhythm side, just that from for that you just need to kind of establish like a consistent bed and wake time. So you go to bed and wake up around the same time. You do want to get exposed to like natural sunlight, most, most importantly, in the morning after waking up to start the circadian clocks. So just this UV light from the sun, that will be very, it’s going to be much more powerful in terms of the brightness and intensity, even if it’s cloudy than being indoors. So being indoors doesn’t you know, enable you to start dislocating and read more if that doesn’t do it. That is the healthy way. Whereas if you go outside after waking up a little bit, maybe five or 10 minutes, that will already tell the brain that is your daytime. And it’s also actually just basically like you know, it’s like a domino stone. It’s the first domino stone the most important one that will just push the circadian clock working in the right direction. And in the evening, you want to avoid these like bright lights, blue light, green light, because they’re going to suppress melatonin and disrupt your sleep quality a little bit and kind of disrupt the clocks as well. So bright light movement, hydration in the morning, in the evening, just you know, avoid snacking, avoid large meals and block the blue light as well. I think that’s kind of one of the main messages of the circadian energy activation system as well and the main like, practical applications of that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no. It’s amazing. It’s that this dichotomy seems of how complex it can be, but at the same time how simple it could be, right? I mean, this isn’t rocket science to tell someone, hey, you need to go to sleep properly. And you don’t need to be eating 24 hours a day. And you need to get outside and be part of the earth. I mean, those are common sense stuff. But then when you start talking about foxes, and sirtuins and 80 Plus, sometimes you could lose someone if they’re not into that science. But for the listener, I mean stronger by stress metabolic a tough OG will have links for that as well as their circadian NAD plus activation. I know you give a lot of weight things for free, intermittent fasting guide, I guess the autophagy activation, cheat sheet, sleeping for better, sleeping better, a free guide. So I’ll have the links for those because I think the other thing that I have to commend you on is not just how productive and how amazing your information is, and how prolific you are, but how you give a lot of it away for free so that people can learn this information. So thank you for doing that. As far as a toffee G goes, and you talked about intermittent fasting and we have time-restricted eating windows or we have different strategies like five and two, and then, of course, full fast and a toffee G can you speak a little bit about that because one of the products that I’m developing or names that I’m developing is something called catabolic to anabolic. And the analogy I use is you can’t drive with your foot on the gas and at the break at the same time. And there’s a fine line to that meaning if you’re not eating a lot, but then maybe you’re getting a weight loss you’re lifting a lot of weights, or if you’re doing a lot of mTOR stuff, but you’re wishing to turn on autophagy? I mean, can you talk us a take us through maybe the different types of food restrictions and ultimately how to not drive with your foot on the gas and the brake at the same time?   Sim Land: Yeah, that was kind of the main topic of the book metabolic physiology. And there are, you know, reasons to think that you shouldn’t like different like growth periods, people can go through their life as a like a child or a baby, then you’re growing a lot like your, you know, in terms of the percentage you grow, like, you know, very large, like you doubled your size in one year, or something like that. So you’re the ratios increase exponentially when you’re young. And in your like, after puberty, it kind of starts to slow down a little bit. So you’re not, you’re aging the most or the fastest when you’re like young, in terms of the changes, you go through the fastest, and it kind of plateaus in your 20s and starts to slowly, basically, accelerate or the process of aging slows down when you’re in your 20s and 30s. And then you start to see more, these visible and significant changes, after you’re in depends on when it happens. Like if you have you know, a good, healthy, healthy lifestyle, then you can prolong it. But if you have like a bad lifestyle, then it’s gonna start to happen again, in your 40s, or 50s. Already, let’s say compared to the 60s or 80s if you’re healthy. So yeah, but yeah, different growth periods, if you’re young, you do want to grow, you want to build, you know, bone density, and get a lot of nutrition and nutrients into your system, so that you could grow and develop properly, physical features and brain and that kind of things. If you’re old, then you also like and want to support the growth, not because you can grow, but for maintaining the things that you have. So if you’re like, let’s say 60 or 70, then what tends to happen is that your, like muscle mass decreases, because of many reasons, some people say that it’s, you know, you lose sensitivity to stimulate protein synthesis, you just become sedentary, that kind of things, whatever it is, like, there is like a significant trend in losing muscle mass if you get older, and you’re not able to build it back up either that easily either for different reasons. So yeah, in that scenario, you do want to support that growth as well by, you know, you’re eating more protein and, and getting amino acids and those kinds of things to maintain that. And likewise, when you’re young, you want to do that as well to kind of grow and produce our growth hormone and anabolic hormones to grow. It’s like, Yeah, a bit controversial in terms of Do you want to do that all the time in your life? You know, if you’re in your 20s until your 40s or 50s, do you want to do that all the time? There is like some animal studies, animal research that suggests that yeah, like being in this growth state all the time, by being anabolic, and turning on this pathway called mTOR. And increasing IGF one levels and growth hormone. Is that the most beneficial thing to do in your like, middle years or Yeah, because there is like restricting protein, restricting the mTOR is beneficial for longevity in some sense. But yeah, like not all the time you don’t want to do that. If you’re like still growing, if you’re like a teenager, and even like in your 20s, maybe you don’t want to do that that significantly. You want to still, you know, be strong and build muscle as well in your younger years. Because it’s easier to do that. In your older years, you may not want to do that, or this restrictive approach either that much-restricting protein because that would entail that you will become frailer. And that can be you know, harmful for sarcopenia and metabolic health in general. But yeah, I do personally think that there is some merit to going through these different cycles of growing, of being in a more anabolic state, and also going through stages of being more catabolic. Because during that catabolic state, you do see an increase in all these different longevity markers that we mentioned already, like FOXO proteins, sirtuins, autophagy, and NAD, and, yeah, those vary more associated with increased lifespan and longevity. And the same applies to just calorie restriction, too. restricting calories is one of the most known ways to extend lifespan and others. Some people think that it’s not the best thing for humans, which can be true because you know, if you can’t restrict then you also become frailer or you decrease the risk of nutrient deficiencies, so you need to do it well and you need to and maybe like cyclically, not all the time. But fortunately, there are some ways to mimic some of these effects that you see in color restriction within the fasting we do see almost identical, like identical, changing biomarkers as you would in calorie restriction. And the same applies to exercise like exercise mimics calorie restriction. So, yeah, you can apply, you don’t want to become over-nourished. You don’t want to become obese, you don’t want to become overweight and develop metabolic syndrome. You don’t want to be in this Yeah, over nourish the overfed state overabundance state all the time, you want to have like some periods of restriction, whether that takes the form of calorie restriction, restricting some sort of like the time window that you eat, or maybe doing like a longer fast, whatever it is. But I think the reason why fasting can help with the longevity thing is that the chair kind of prevents you from getting obese or prevents you from getting overweight. And the same with the way it works with calorie restriction as well. So just some people may prefer to do like longer fasts and not restrict calories at other times, whereas others prefer to do just a regular calorie restriction, and then eat appropriate that maintenance or whatever. So yeah, I think that’s the kind of mean idea to cycle through periods of growth and some sort of cannibalism, but you don’t want to be in a very low-calorie state all the time. And when it comes to protein restriction, then yeah, I do think that yeah, you may be not eating a high protein diet all the time is the best idea. So it cycles that as well. But being on a chronically low protein diet can also be harmful. Because we are just increasing frailty, risk, and sarcopenia. And not being able to build muscle so we are approaching can be very beneficial. Just you may not want to be eating a super high protein diet all the time.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s a great answer. One of my mentors has said everything we learned in life can be extrapolated from Goldilocks and the Three Bears not too much, not too little, but just right. And I think depending on where you are on your age and your life cycle, you’re putting more emphasis on building. And then as we get older, you still want to maintain strength and mitogenesis. But you also want to make sure you’re recycling and getting into a toffee G. I do think and you’ll agree with me seeing that the bodybuilders are the original OGS of biohacking, right, they understood this concept intuitively, even though they may not have known about the term autophagy or mTOR. I use the analogy almost like thinking about a farmer’s field. And they plant a lot of crops and the soil is very new. And they’re getting the most yield out of that soil in the early years. But at the end of the season, they got to go in there and turn the soil and recycle it so that they can repopulate the field again and rotate the crops and keep the minerals high. But as that field has been living for 8090 years, its emphasis is more on recycling those soils and just getting good high-quality nutrients. But maybe they’re not looking to get the most amount of yield like they were 50 or 60 years ago, but they’re still productive. I think that’s a really good analogy in terms of what you just mentioned. And of course, modulating protein is a huge way to change that. Especially you talk about which is at there are so many things I can ask you, I love how you get into my dining and glycine. I definitely would love to talk to you about that. But before I do, the same, what are your biomarkers? I know you have the aura ring, as far as objective markers that you look at, or what some AHA is that you’ve had with your readiness or your sleep scores or your recovery or objective markers that you look at, even though I still think subjective is most important. But what are some of these aha hours that you’ve had maybe that you could share with us that you’ve seen in these objective markers, whether it’s day-to-day testing, or it’s month to month testing with markers, but what are some of the things that you’re seeing with your own body that gave you some aha was with?   Sim Land: Well, I think from my bio work or my blood work, generally I can see that when I’m doing like, you know, the fasting and eating like, you know, once or twice a day, then my biomarkers are generally very good. So I don’t see any of these adverse side effects that people tend to talk about, like, I don’t see. Loss and Muscle I don’t see in low thyroid, I will see high-stress high cortisol, I don’t see high blood sugar or that kind of thing. And funny enough, like even like, you know, yes, like, it is true that fasting lowers things like IGF one, which is can be good for some for anti-aging purposes because it is associated with like cancer and aging. But in very high amounts, but like low low levels of IGF, one can also be bad because it like, increases the risk of muscle loss and frailty, those things. So obviously, I don’t have any of those things, but my job IGF one levels are still very low. And the reason why I think that he is low is because of the intermittent fasting. So because I still eat a high protein intake. So if I were to eat the same amount of protein across like three, three meals, or five meals, then my IGF one levels will probably be higher. But because I’m eating in a smaller timeframe, then it kind of compensates for that and keeps the IGF one level, or the overall IGF one level low. As a result of that. My sleep isn’t suffering from the university, either. It’s good, I do get away, I do sleep, like, a bit less than, like an average person. Maybe I’m just, you know, kind of used to it or, but yeah, it’s not like, I don’t sleep. Eight or nine hours, I usually sleep like, you know, six to seven hours, something like that. And it hasn’t had any, negative effect on my biomarkers, or my blood results. So those things are still good. Like, I don’t have a high blood sugar level, even if I sleep less, which is usually what’s going to happen with not sleeping enough. So I still get like adequate recovery. My deep sleep is great. My HRV is very good. Like it’s super high. It’s and I think that reason why it’s high is because of again, like exercise. Someone asked maybe about exercise and investing I think are the biggest reason that my HRV was high.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. No, I mean, I wouldn’t expect it to be otherwise. I think that when you’re dialed in as much as you are and go back to what we initially talked about is like you don’t have to force yourself to get up every day and dial into what you do. Because you love it, you’re congruent with what you’re teaching, you follow your practice and what you preach. And, and you’re doing these, you mentioned, as far as we’re on not only on a dye neural rhythm, but we’re on an on a sort of seasonal rhythm as well. And I think that’s important where when we go into the summer months, and there’s more fruitful, we can do more calories we can grow and but then when we get into a sort of a fall in the winter, were engineered to be more of a slower type of not as much calories do you do stuff like that as well seem in terms of the year and what time of the year we are and sort of whether it’s the foods that are available at that time versus eating foods that are imported and eating stuff that isn’t but are you aware of that as part of your, your bio hacks and longevity strategies personally?   Sim Land: Well, I do think I do a little bit of it. Just like intuitively or, or just because I like to have like things growing in my garden at that time. So in summer, I would eat more things coming from my garden. And that winter time, I would still eat, you know, occasionally foods that aren’t for that season. Like maybe like, I will still eat some like, I don’t know, oranges or tomatoes in winter. But maybe like a little bit less, probably. So yeah, I do in the summertime. I tend to be more like fruits and or a bit higher carb and the winter maybe like a lower-carb more a little bit. I do you just usually regulate that based on my activity levels. And if I’m more physically active, then I’ll eat more carbs and less, then I’ll eat fewer carbs. So just maybe in the summertime, I’m just generally more active.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? It’s more of a natural, just what’s available and intuitively how you’ve been? I mean, because you’re so I guess dialed in with the resonance of communication of what’s going on with the Earth, which is great. I did mention to you before we started today that I wanted to do a genomic interpretation so that we can see what some of the challenges are maybe from a genetic leave more susceptible? Where would the weak links in the chain break? If enough epigenetic triggers caused that to happen? I guess, you know, with David Sinclair, you mentioned about maybe 20% of our expression is genomic and 80% is epigenomic. How big are you are small? Are you into understanding some of the genomics and if they’re as important as you think they are, as people say they are just I know, with DNA methylation is a big indicator of aging as well. But as far as just how much credence do you put into that?   Sim Land: Will the Air Force for some things it can be, yeah, very important, like MTHFR is going to be huge. And things like April eg in is going to be also very important. You know, whether you’re a fast metabolizer of caffeine or slow, I think that’s very important. So yeah, I do think there are a lot of very important things that you can learn from genetics that can even be like new life-changing. So some people are poor manipulators, which can be fixed very, quite easily.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah.  Right. So and again, I agree with you in terms of it’s important to know from a pharmacokinetic, or, you know, as understanding how things metabolize or how they impact your body. And, for me, it’s not so much this gene does that and just gene does this. It’s the whole nutritional epi genomic genetic susceptibility, the blueprint, the roadmap, the landmines, the GPS settings, to know where you’re going and what you need to do to change gear. So in respect of your time, Sam, one of the things that I asked as a parting question is, you know, the name of the podcast is called the truth about your health. So what truth about how do you know now that you didn’t know when maybe you were just starting the anthropology and didn’t know all the doors that you were gonna go through and talking about intermittent fasting and ketogenic diets and autophagy? And mTOR? What do you wish you knew now that you didn’t know that is what truth is? Is that revealed now that you may have thought was not what that was the opposite? Or was told that it was true, but it wasn’t? Then what would you think that would be for just your life and what you’ve learned so far?   Sim Land: Well, I was already doing like, you know, fasting and keto, and things like that, when I started college, even before that. So I think I think, you know, what, what has maybe has changed a little bit, is that I think, right now, I think that, like, this carbohydrate intake, and even like, you know, grains, and those kinds of things aren’t as bad as people may think, I think they can still be part of, you know, they can still be a part of like, a very healthy lifestyle. And just people usually have like negative experiences with them, because of past experiences, or someone told them that they’re bad or something like that, from my own experience, I don’t have any adverse effects from that. And it’s, it comes down to, like, energy balance. And yeah, like your biomarkers, if you’re still very insulin sensitive, and very metabolically healthy, then you can get to what you should get away with, you know, carbohydrates, and, you know, sugar is like, normal quantities, obviously, nothing like excess, but you don’t have to have to think that any piece of you know, bread, or any piece of, you know, some sort of carbohydrate or sugar is gonna kill you, or it’s gonna give you insulin resistance or diabetes.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I guess the aha for me is that you’ve been dialed in your whole life pretty much. And I think that for the listener, I agree. 100%, like Michael Phelps, when he’s exercising as much as he has, he needs to eat more calories to match that energy expenditure. However, I would just put the asterisk all things being equal, I would agree with you. But given that we’re in the US, and there are still massive amounts of GMOs and sprays and so forth, it makes it difficult for, unfortunately, the socioeconomic impact of things that get taxed or things that get supported and how much more expensive it is for the average person to get stuff that isn’t adulterated, but 100% All things being equal. I agree. 100%. Any other last comments or things that we didn’t talk about that you want to mention? Or I’m in the listener? I’m sure have already heard of you, but I will leave a bunch of free information for them to get access to what you publish and what you do. You did mention, I guess the last question would be you did mention you have another book coming out. So what’s new on the horizon for SIEM? And maybe tell us about your, your, your organization or what you’re planning with your, with your sustainable protein sources?   Sim Land: Yeah, well, the next book, The obesity fix is going to be maybe like in summer, we’re gonna expect to release that. It’s gonna be just, you know, what is promoting obesity the most? And what are the kinds of most? Or what is the reason why people are eating so much? And where do those that food and calories come from? How do you like to help them mitigate that and reverse, obesity? And yeah, but also working on this, like, hemp-based Grenell that is, has high protein and is basically like a plant-based protein source. That, yeah, it’s just like an alternative to things like Beyond Meat and these other burgers that tend to be very bad in terms of ingredients and to your health. So we’re one I just want to create like a plant-based meat alternative that is good and has clean ingredients and doesn’t have anything else artificial. Just you know, it has only hemp flour and pea protein. So it’s 100% like, you know, natural. No, that’s awesome.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I’m excited to see that when it comes out. But Sam, I want to thank you for your time, I will post the links to all the resources that we talked about. And I look forward to continuing to follow you from the fly on the wall, so to speak, and seeing all the things that you’re doing and just want to thank you for giving me your time today and everything that you do. So thank you so much.   Sim Land: It was my pleasure. Get Siim’s free guide to Intermittent fasting here –Free Copy of Siim’s book metabolic autophagy The post Reverse Aging: Cutting Edge Biohacks Actually Guaranteed for Healthy Aging appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Then I write Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their energy back quickly. And what a pleasure it is to have our next guest Dr. Mindy Pels, who is a best-selling author, speaker, fasting expert, and renowned holistic health coach, and her mission is to get a million people fasting. She has a popular YouTube channel with videos about alternative health tips and fasting and has garnered over 15 million lifetime views. She has the resetter podcast she founded and hosted and it’s Apple’s top 40 In the US, she’s also the author of three books, menopause, reset the reset factor, and the reset kitchen. And she’s soon to have fasting like a girl coming out. I could go on and on. But we only have a certain amount of time to get into the meat and potatoes of today. Talk. So Mindy, thank you so much for being here today.   Mindy Pelz: Oh, thank you, Joel. I’m excited to be here. It’s my favorite topic. So I love chatting about this.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. We like to be nerds together. And we can do that and go down these rabbit holes just sometimes. And I’m sure you’re not going to do it. But sometimes when we get nerdy we get too into the scientific stuff. So we’ll keep it on a very superficial level. And I always like to know stories of how you got into this. I know you’re trained traditionally, as a chiropractor, you just mentioned to me you made a pivot during COVID. But maybe take us through the the the 32nd, almost elevator speech of how you got to where you are now from where you were before, let’s kind of go through there.   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, the short version of a very long story is that you know, I’ve been in practice, it’s been well, 27 years. And I started to notice about 10 years into my chiropractic practice, that people just weren’t healing at the same rate that they were when I first got out of school and symptoms were hanging around longer people were showing up with more symptoms. And so I started to look at what was happening, was it our food was our environment was it stress. And, you know what I found was all of the above that the modern world had changed. It was dramatically affecting the way people were healing. So I went searching for answers and started doing nutritional work, detox work, and with patients getting good results. But it wasn’t until I had my health crisis at 43. When my hormones started to shift going through perimenopause I truly found fasting, and realize that I could solve so much of my healing crisis, my healing crisis, and my patients healing challenges through the art of fasting, and it was free. And it’s time-efficient, and it’s backed by science. And so I geeked out and became obsessed with fasting, which was about 10 years ago, and I haven’t lost my enthusiasm yet.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s a great story. There’s nothing like living the health challenge for you to be fully invested and to be able to learn the ins and outs and talk with integrity because I find a lot of problems are with doctors or even you look at the broke financial planner, or you know, the teacher that’s not educated or the doctor that’s not healthy. So thank you for having that integrity. As far as the Thrifty Gene hypothesis. I think that’s a good springboard for you started 10 years ago, you had your health crisis, and you realize that hey, this thing fasting, so maybe take us through the Genesis or the evolution of that, and we’ll get we’ll start from there.   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, well, so you know, it’s really fun to tell people because when they go to look at my social media, they’re like, they assume that I’ve been fasting my whole life. And that’s not the case. I was the hangry person, if you didn’t feed me, I was going to take you down. And I got up and ate breakfast was the first thing I did in the morning. I was the belief that if you ate six to eight times a day, small meals, would raise your metabolism. And so what happens when women go into their 40s is our estrogen production and progesterone goes down. And in that decline of hormones, we become more weight loss resistant, we become more insulin resistant, and the mitochondria have to work harder. So what I started to look at was just something as simple as the timing of when I ate. And that’s when I discovered the Thrifty Gene hypothesis, which is so fascinating. And I have a whole section on it and fast like a girl because I don’t think it’s highlighted enough. This is, if we go back to the caveman days when we look at how cave people managed food, they were able to go long periods without food. And then when they made a kill, they feasted. So our genetics, our human body is programmed to do what we call feast, famine, and cycling. And in the famine, we tap into a whole nother energy system. A lot of people know this is the ketogenic energy system, I call it the fat-burning system, but the body will switch over to a different fuel source.   And that ketogenic energy system is like supercharging your cells. So you start to make ketones, it makes your brain stronger, it kills hunger brings down inflammation, and it makes you specifically more capable of going and hunting the next meal, which is what the Thrifty Gene hypothesis is, is that because of the need to survive in the harsh conditions of the cave person-days, we have a genetic expression that came out of that. And that genetic expression we are now is now infiltrated into our human bodies, which makes us programmed to fast. And when we don’t fast, we start to become more insulin resistant. So because we’re going against our genetic expression, we can blame it on food, we can blame it on sugar, we can blame it on stress, we can blame it on toxins. And all of those are valid points why insulin resistance is so high. But we got to come back to the fact if you are not fasting if you have not compressed your eating window, or elongated your fasting window, you are going against your genetic makeup. And that is why when people learn to fast, they not only make themselves insulin sensitive again, but they tap into how their genes want the body to end the fuel to come in.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Now, that’s a great, great answer. And I think that the more simplified explanations, we give things, the more people that are studied in a sort of a six standard deviation of what we do resonate, and they can resonate with the same Yeah, it was a hangry person if I’m not eating every, every couple of hours my provider told me and you know, I’m trained in exercise physiology, I was a personal trainer. And in the early years, I think I’m probably around the same age as you where we would tell people to have smaller meals, more frequent meals is what helps to stabilize that glucose. And so what I guess what was the AHA, that you had yourself personally, to know like, Oh, my goodness, I’m, I’m doing exactly the antithesis of my how my genes are telling me what I should be doing. What was that aha moment that you had?   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, it’s, you know, I think the aha moment came around 43, when I was starting to gain weight, I was not sleeping, I was mentally exhausted crashing at three in the afternoon. And all my old tricks weren’t working. So I tried to exercise my way out of it, I tried to supplement my way out of it, I tried to change my nutrition like I was trying everything I could to get my body back to its 30-year-old version of itself. And it would have been really easy at that moment to say, Oh, I’m 42, I’m aging. But what you and I know about the human body is it’s built to last, it’s built to thrive and well into your hundreds. So you’re not meant to go down at 40. And so I think the aha moment for me was, gosh, my old tricks aren’t working. So I need to implement something new. And you know, what I know about the human body. And I think you and I line up on this is that it’s meant to heal itself. And so when the body’s not working the way we want it to work, you didn’t get the wrong supplement, you didn’t get the wrong diet, you didn’t get the wrong exercise program, there is something that you forgot that you have to tap into that that will turn on innate intelligence, and let that intelligence do its job. So I think that was my aha moment is the old stuff wasn’t working.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. And so as far as we have this Thrifty Gene is programmed into our DNA. And as you mentioned, it’s environmentally it’s that much more important to tap into that, let alone as we get older. And that’s a good segue into there’s this thing called metabolic syndrome, and how it’s just a crazy incident and how many people have it so maybe tell us a little bit more about that Mindy, and what’s actually what your research and what But the research is showing as to what’s going on with that.   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, it’s a great question. And this is a big part of how I started to, launch into educating the world was the rates of metabolic syndrome. And I think what got highlighted was in 2020, march 2020, when the pandemic was first to hit, there was a lot of discussion about comorbidities, and like what are these quote, comorbidities. And a study came out of the University of North Carolina, showing that here in America, we only have 12% of Americans that are metabolically fit. Now let’s talk about what it means to be metabolically fit. You’ve got to have a great fasting, an appropriate level of fasting insulin, and appropriate levels of fasting glucose, meaning that when you wake up in the morning, and you’ve been fasting during bed, you need to have your glucose and insulin levels be in within normal range, you need to have the normal of whatever we’ve decided normal is waist circumference, you need to have normal blood pressure, you need to have normal cholesterol, you need to have no damage, and fatty liver issues, all of that needs to be normal without medication. So this is the key, you have a lot of people walking around going well, my blood pressure’s normal, my cholesterol is normal, but they’re taking medication, if we took everybody off of medication, then you would start to see where this metabolic imbalance is growing. So then I will add to this because I think that it’s easy to just point fingers at bloodwork. But I want to point out that if you cannot go without food for longer than 10 hours, you are metabolically unfit, you should be able to go 10 I think the optimum of 13 to 15 hours without food is considered intermittent fasting. If you can’t hit that without wanting to kill somebody or pass out, you’ve got some metabolic health issues that need to be addressed.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great answer. It’s an interesting Monday, I went to the forum meeting, which was in Hollywood, Florida my first one to go. And while I was encouraged, for sure to see traditional doctors start to embrace the concept of food and nutrition. I usually don’t swear on my podcast, but it’s like, no shit, like food does this for you, you know, like, welcome to like reality. But it was nice. But one of the presenters who I liked, talked about when we go to bed, or let’s say you have your last meal at seven, and then you don’t eat until seven. And now we want to call this intermittent fasting. But that’s like life, right? Like, how do we not just how did we get so far away from that? It’s just, it’s amazing. So I guess with to your point to that without medication, I think that’s a great, great way to quantify that. But even and also to make sure you could go at least 1012 hours without wanting to kill someone. I think that’s another way to quantify that. And then lastly, though, those ranges that they have are even still pretty broad, where I think that number maybe you would agree that would even be higher than 88%.   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, I think it I mean, that’s why I throw that last one in there. If you’re able to go effortlessly for 13 to 15 hours without food, your weight isn’t a good place, and your blood pressure and cholesterol are in good shape. without medication. Those are some pretty tried and true examples. But I think the problem is that when a symptom appears, we medicate it. And now we call that body normal and healthy. But if we just take something like blood pressure, that the when blood pressure goes up, that is a warning sign, there is something in the body out of balance. So when we take medication to bring it down, we are killing the warning sign. And then what will happen is it’s going to something else is going to break in the body. So I love this idea that let’s start with the natural rhythms of the body and see what we can do to fix the body naturally and fast. I don’t know why, but the timing of food hasn’t been given and highlighted as much as it should. It is now but when I get like last Christmas, I got on a bunch of new shows and people were asking, they’re like, oh, is this fasting thing still going on? Why is it so popular? And to me, that’s like saying, Oh, we’re still excited about sleep. Why is sleep so popular? Because it is a natural way in which your body wants to be treated. It’s not going anywhere. So it’s time for us to figure out how to create a rhythm around it. Because just like sleep is going to heal you faster and is going to heal you as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I remember I listened to your amazing lecture at the biohacking Congress conference and you’re saying something about? Well, the fasting thing didn’t work for me. And it’s like, well, that’s like saying sleep didn’t work for me. That’s right. So so why don’t you go into what happens when you fast and why it’s so important to do that?   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, oh, this is my favorite part. Because this is where if you’re not a believer, now you’re going to be a believer. So the thing to realize is that we’re burning energy from two systems sugar burner and a fat burner. When you eat, you’re now in the sugar burner system. If you eat a high sugary meal, it’s gonna take anywhere from eight to 10 hours for that glucose to come down. And for the signal to tell your body to go into fat burning. So eight to 10 hours is where the switch usually begins to happen. If you take a lower carbohydrate meal, you’re eating more healthy carbs, and healthy fats, that switch may happen a little faster. But about it 10 hours, now your body is sensing that something is going that is that food isn’t coming in, and that it needs to make its chemicals. So that usually happens about 10, we got that switch, and you’ll start to see the byproduct of these chemicals, usually about 13 hours. The biggest one is ketones. So ketones start to get made, your brain operates off of 50% glucose and 50% ketones, so when the brain senses ketones, it kills hunger, and it starts to create better mental clarity and better energy. Now, when you start to get to like 17 hours of fasting, the body is senses, gosh, foods not coming in, I’m going to make sure the cells all the trillions of cells in our body start to repair themselves so that they become more efficient. So it stimulates something called a toughie g, where the cells start to clean themselves up against old recycled parts that aren’t working mitochondria, endoplasmic reticulum, things within the cells that are dysfunctional get repaired, I look at it kind of like a Roomba that you put in your house, you turn it on and vacuums the floor on its own. That’s what a toffee G is it’s cleaning those cells up at 24 hours in this fasted state, your digestive system goes, Okay, we’re not getting any food, let’s repair so that when food comes in, we can be more efficient. So you get what we call intestinal stem cells, that you’ll get production of those, it’ll help with a leaky gut, it helps to change the microbiome profile that happens at 24 hours, 36 hours your body goes and finds the fact that it needs to burn. So those of you that are weight loss resistant at 36 hours, it’ll go find that and burn it and you can unstick weight loss resistance at 48. you reboot all your dopamine pathways, and you create new dopamine receptor sites. So you’re going to experience joy more deeply. And then the big mac-daddy one is 72 hours where the whole immune system reboots itself. New stem cells go searching through the body, people spend 10 $20,000 on stem cell injections. And once you learn to three-day water fast, you can get yourself a nice dose of stem cells just from the act of doing that. So the longer we go, the more healing happens.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Right. So and I know you have a reset Academy, but at the same time, Mindy maybe talks to us about I always say you have to earn the right to be able to do that in terms of, you’re not just gonna say okay, I’m gonna run a marathon, and I’m gonna go this weekend to run it, you know, you have to buy your shoes and put off put them on and stretch out the muscles. So how does because you and I see it where those people that it doesn’t work for because they don’t have the ability or they test it after 14 to 16 hours and they’re still at 123 or 135. So what’s going on there and how do they stairstep their way into earning the right to do that?   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, it’s a great question. So here are the first four changes to make if you want to start to get into the groove of fasting, the first three have to do with your food. So the first one, believe it or not, is to get the toxic oils out and add in the good ones. So these are your canola, your corn, your cottonseed, your soybean, and vegetable, those are all toxic oils that make it very difficult to switch into fat-burning mode. So get those out. The second thing is to get off the manmade refined carbohydrates. Get the bread the cakes, the pasta. This includes concluding gluten-free, getting off the gluten all of these processed carbs that you’ll find in the middle of your grocery store, and switching to nature’s carbs. Nature created some amazing carbohydrates for you with potatoes Fruits and even vegetables. So switch over to that. The third is to get off any toxic ingredients. These are your red dyes, your Olestra, your Splenda, your NutraSweet, you know, any of the artificial colorings, those are also going to make that switch hard. So once you’ve done those three things, and you could do it even 80%, you know, 20%, leaving 20% of the time, where you eat those things, if you choose, once you’ve gotten off those three, what you do is you look at when you eat, and you start to compress your eating window. And the easiest way to do this is to push breakfast back an hour. Some people like to push dinner up the hour before the day before, but I usually say push breakfast back an hour, you want it to be a little uncomfortable. Because when you get to that discomfort hormetic a hormetic response will kick in. And hormesis is where when the body’s under a small amount of stress, it builds itself stronger. So you push your breakfast back an hour, so that every day for a week, the net, once that gets easy, you push it back another hour, get used to that discomfort, and then push it back another hour. And usually what I find is if you approach that within two to two to four weeks, you should be at 15 hours effortlessly because your body wants to do it. It’s just you have to undo what the modern world has conditioned your body to crave.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, and that gets into we talked a little bit earlier about the role of the microbiome. And for those stubborn, I guess adopters to or adapters both things, just as an aside, I talked to one of the lecturers who’s a professor Ph.D. MD Joslin center, clinic director, mentioned that polyunsaturated are all oils are created equal, and that olive oil and corn oil, both canola oil are the same things. I asked him at the end of the lecture. Just a quick question. I mean, you mentioned canola oil was very healthy that studies show that polyunsaturated will also lower triglycerides and raise HDL is Have there been studies that tested the different kinds of polyunsaturated and but there was no comment. So I think it’s unfortunate that we’re still at the Higher Institute, ivory towers are still teaching that these unhealthy oils are, and everything is created equal. And I think I love them the four things that you can do, especially the oils and the heating the oils, and you go to Whole Foods and you think it’s healthy, but then it has those oils. So maybe speak to just a quick little soundbite on do you feel that all oils are created equal? Or do you feel that there are challenges with some of those? You know.   Mindy Pelz: It’s such a good, thank you for asking it because I think what happens is when the ketogenic movement happened, and people started losing weight, what we heard is carbs are bad. But I don’t know about your job. But if you go out to dinner with me and a bunch of my functional medicine friends, the number one ingredient we’re looking at when we go out to eat is what oils are they cooking with. And the reason is that the current research is showing these it’s saturated, and it’s not, it’s the inflammatory oils. So it’s it can be polyunsaturated can be unsafe, and it can be saturated, there are a lot of different versions of these harmful oils. But what they do is they inflame the outer cell membrane, and what and think of it like congestion, so they congest, the outer cell membrane, well, that cell membrane is what is allowing hormones to get into the cell and nutrients to get into the cell. So if you’re eating the bad oil is over and over again, you’re blocking vitamin D out from the cell, you’re blocking insulin out from the cell, you’re blocking estrogen and progesterone and testosterone, all the things you want and thyroid hormone to get into the cell, you’ve now created an inflammatory barrier where they can’t get in. So if a doctor is disagreeing with this, then they need to go see the research because this is the I would say the number one emerging nutritional concept that you are going to hear over and over again in the coming years. And it ties into this 12% of Americans being metabolically unfit. It’s because what happened when we went low fat it and we started to even went low carb is we started changing the structure of our food and putting more toxins in and putting more different types of oils in and it messed up the cellular inflammatory response.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, it’s not so much the food it’s been what’s done to the food, how it’s still adult there that creates the major challenges. So as far as with the fasting like a girl, and when you hit your 40s, and then sort of that that health crisis occurred, how is it different Monday as women get into the postmenopausal ages, and their progesterone and estrogen levels start to decline? Or there’s a ratio between them, that’s unfavorable, or they’re not detoxing them effectively, or all of the above? How does that relate to the impact it’s having on their health? And, and how they may have to do the fasting a little bit differently?   Mindy Pelz: Yeah. So I think what most women are not aware of, and I put myself in the same category, I was there is that at 40, there around 40, there is a switch that happens in our hormonal system. And literally, your ovaries are like, I’m out, I’m gonna retire. I’ve only got a few eggs left, so it’s gonna take me about 10 to 15 years to wind myself down. It’s not like a switch that happens overnight. But what it does is it has to send the job of making sex hormones, estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone, it has to send it over to the adrenal glands. Well, all you got to do is go out with a 42-year-old woman to understand the stress levels that are hitting in the early 40s. You know, that’s usually a time when women are balancing family and work life, you get deeper into the 40s. You’ve got with you know, kids going off to college. Most you know, a lot of marriages have been long-standing at that point, and there might be a lot of stressors so switching over to the adrenals can send women on a crazy hormone. All right. So one of the things you want to do is mind cortisol production, you want to mind insulin. And so this is where fasting can help. Something as simple as intermittent fasting is incredible for women over 40. And then what I did, and this is what is in the menopause reset, which women over 40 can get now, and will be highlighted and fast like a girl that comes out at the end of this year is how do we time different fasting lanes to our menstrual cycle. Women in their 40s are typically Peri menopausal. So there’s going to be kind of a little bit of chaos when things come and go. But when we learn how to fast to the rhythm of the sex hormones, it’s like magic. It’s magic. I mean, there’s I’m 52 I have not been on HRT, I’ve not been on bioidenticals I have navigated menopause with 100%. Natural and, and done it well. And then you’ve got women with PCOS and infertility that are down in their 30s in their 20s. We’ve taught them how to fast like a girl and all of a sudden you got them coming out of infertility, we see PCOS being resolved. So the major difference is that we need to take into consider consideration cortisol and insulin to map it so that we can balance these sex hormones.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that’s a great springboard into maybe unpacking that a little bit more in detail because I definitely as I used to call myself the adrenal fatigue recovery ninja, although my wife was like, no one knows what Adrenal Fatigue is, why are you calling yourself out? So. But anyway, so I do work with a lot of women that we do their Dutch test, and we look at their genomic and we start measuring their glucose and their ketones and get them more metabolically flexible, and dial down the inflammatory response and get them circadian rhythm aligned. But it does come down to different phases. Like I always ask them, Are you better at the very beginning of the month or at right around ovulation to get an insight on where their dominance maybe? or whatnot, but maybe unpack that a little bit for us, Mindy, in terms of once they dial that in? Of course, it’s going to be different from woman to woman. But as far as a general rule of thumb based on the different phases, where a woman is, and so forth. What is the, I guess ideal way to build that out with?   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, and the best way to do that is to map it to a 30-day cycle. And so I’ll just use the menstrual cycle as the map. And then we can talk because the postmenopausal and Peri menopausal women then always have little nuances there. And this really should be taught to 13-year-olds when they go through puberty. I don’t know why we’re not teaching this. And that’s a big part of my mission is getting all women to understand this idea. And here’s how it looks from day one to day 10 of your menstrual cycle. And I just want to point out that day one because this question comes up a lot is the first day you bleed. So the first day you got to use some feminine care, and help assistance. So from day one to day 10, Your body’s trying to make estrogen and s Turgeon likes you to keep glucose down. Estrogen likes to when you fast that if you are insulin resistant, you will be estrogen dominant in a bad way the bad estrogens. And the good estrogens are many times don’t show up for you. So you throw estrogen off insulin resistance. So we want in those first 10 days, we want fewer carbs, we want more fasting, so we can make ourselves insulin sensitive. Now when we move into ovulation day 11 Today 15, you’ve got estrogen and testosterone at their peak and a little bit of progesterone. This is the tricky part. When hormones come surging in you also get signals for the tissues to release toxins out of their out-of-store tissue. So like lead is stored in the bones. We’ve got Mercury stored in nervous tissue. So a lot of times what will happen is talking you’ll get this toxic dump at ovulation. So we don’t want to stimulate a lot of autophagy. We want to bring the fasting down. So I usually say somewhere about 15 hours of fasting during your ovulation window is amazing. Whereas in those first 10 days, you can go up and fast 24 hours if that’s your gig, or if you want to do three-day water fast. The other thing that’s important about ovulation is that when you make these hormones, you’ve got to break those hormones down. So you’ve got to feed your microbiome, you’ve got to take some pressure off your liver, those two organs are key for breaking down the estrogen all of all three of them. So this is a great time during ovulation to up all of your leafy green vegetables, that five-day period gets off alcohol and anything that would stress the liver. Then when you come out of ovulation, there’s a dip in hormones again. So from day 16 Today 19. You can go back into keto you can go back into fasting you’ll do great, but on day 19 This is the clinch This is like the key. What happens on day 19 is to make progesterone you’ve got to raise glucose. So all the women listening, how many times did we say our carbohydrate cravings go up the week before our period? Well, there’s a physiological reason that your body needs more glucose to make progesterone. So we want to feed it the right kind of glucose. So this is your squashes, your potatoes, your beans, your tropical fruits, things like that become very, very key the week before your cycle. This doesn’t mean you go sit on the couch and eat a tub of ice cream and a box of pizza. This is giving it the right glucose. And now you also don’t want to raise cortisol that week. So no fasting, you want to kind of just go into more of a nurturing phase up to your body. And it looks completely different than the other phases of your cycle.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s awesome. I appreciate I always say I do these interviews for my clients. But then meanwhile, like I’m taking notes because it’s like I get to listen over my shoulder. I had that mostly right, except I get I got it. Right for the wrong reasons. I do find that in the third to fourth week right before their cycle, they have those carb cravings and that they need to get those healthy carbs. I guess I didn’t look at it from 16. I looked at it basically, that sort of 16 through 21. That progesterone is stiff, but it falls once it’s not being fertilized. And then that’s where that healthy carbohydrate support to support that progesterone fall I guess is super key. And then the other thing is right around that ovulation time I was right on board with the B vitamins and more that mTOR growth, you think about the body getting ready for fertilization and growing. So those are good. Can you maybe explain a little bit about what you want to keep that cortisol low at that during that last sort of week of the cycle?   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, really good question. So here’s the interesting thing about hormones is that three hormones require one precursor to be made. So cortisol, progesterone, and testosterone all need a steroid hormone called DHEA. And if you are low in DHEA, this is one of the major contributors to adrenal fatigue, which to your point is just a big kind of trashcan statement. But to make cortisol, you’ve got to have enough DHEA you got to have enough DHEA to make progesterone and testosterone. So when we go into the time when our body is going into Max progesterone making, if we’re under a lot of stress, and it could be stress in relationship stress at work, it could be too much exercise. It could be too much fasting anytime we’re requiring our body to make cortisol It will not make progesterone. So we’ve got to be the most sensitive to cortisol presence that week before. Which is why if you again to the women that are listening, how many times do we feel like not working out? How many times do we want to eat more carbohydrates? How many times do we know we’re not feeling as social, we want to sit on the couch, we are biologically programmed to go into this more nurture phase that week before. And a big part of that is because your body’s saying to you, please don’t get me please don’t raise cortisol, because I got to take all the DHEA that’s in you right now and make progesterone. And if you don’t, you’re gonna start spotting, you’ll get you may miss periods, you may get infertility, you can end up with, like, clotting when you start your period. These are all signs that progesterone wasn’t Well, mine did that week before.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. So so the way I would look at it, too, is I would look at it because they’re potentially downstream Monday, I used to explain the clink or the Plinko in prices, right, and they would drop the Plinko. And it would go down the thing? Well, I think that if you’re demanding cortisol to be produced, because your body is under stress, you’re exercising, you’re not giving it the carbs that it needs Plus is a stressful event, which really has a paradigm in terms of giving yourself the grace and understand physiologically your body needs those healthy carbs to support the physiology, but at the same time, you’re telling progesterone you keep your trapdoor from falling, and having to go and fulfill those cups that are empty that are requiring the demand and be available for yourself for all the physiological reasons. So I No, no. And again, it’s not a correction to you. But the way my brain would be is it’s not so much that DHEA is making the progesterone it’s just that you’re not requiring that trapdoor to go down the point go sort of sideways, and rob Peter to pay Paul, so to speak, make sense to you.   Mindy Pelz: The same car, that’s the same thing that I’m saying just right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. That’s what I mean. Right, exactly.   Mindy Pelz: I like the way you’re looking at it. And I think what we don’t realize as women for sure, we don’t realize that how much stress affects all the other hormones. And I think that isn’t emphasized enough. So when we look at DHEA s role in making cholesterol or cortisol and progesterone, you know, I look at cortisol and progesterone a little bit as competitors. And we need to make sure that we’re allowing product progesterone to shine when she needs to shine.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, especially when they’re in that Peri menopausal range when let’s say it’s a relay race, and the anchor of the relay race has already ran 25 laps, and now you’re saying, Hey, you’re in your twilight zone, here take over the baton, like what do you mean, I got to take over I’ve already been running the race, meaning like, if you’re gonna make that transition from having your, your woman factory to say, Okay, I’m done here, you know, adrenals can take over the baton. But the batons have already been running around the track at Crazy rates. How do you expect it to do that? Does that make sense?   Mindy Pelz: Yeah. And you know, I mean, this is a bigger philosophical question. But I think that women aren’t given in this modern world, we’re not given enough grace for when we should not push on through stress. You can push on through stress pretty well, in the first half of your cycle, the back half of your cycle, it is going to cause hormonal havoc. So but you know, in this day and age, you’ve got a lot of women in the workplace. You’ve got a lot of women that are balancing kids and a career and there’s no opportunity to slow down so the hormones are sex hormones are going off at unprecedented, unprecedented rates. So it’s just this conversation alone is probably causing some women to go, wow, I never even thought about this. And that’s what happened to me when I went through perimenopause. It was like when I started to unpack this. I realized I call it it’s not this isn’t my term. Libby Weaver came up with it’s a great book called rushing woman syndrome. And when I read that book, it’s a biochemistry book about what happens when a woman doesn’t mind her cortisol levels I wept and was like, no wonder I have had some hormonal challenges. I’m not resting I’m not nurturing at the right times.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, I love your mission with every 13-year-old and even younger, unfortunately, because the environment is, you know, accelerating that with growth hormone. And what we do with our food sources like adulterating as we talked about earlier, I got a 19-year-old daughter, and if her phone isn’t surgically attached to her hand, right, you know, and then not even the 5g, let alone six g and 10 G or whatever you want to call it. But maybe we could talk about that, because I find that at that age, too. They’re not only infallible, and they’re immortal, and they’ll live forever. But they don’t realize the number of carbs that they eat if they were to track it, nor do they realize the epigenetic influence of foods that are adulterated or 5g that are in their hands or other things, but what impact and what’s going on? Like, what do you suggest or I guess, maybe take the conversation from young for that 19-year-old, that just doesn’t, it was never taught at 13. But now they’re doing all this, this sort of an unhealthy, nonaligned epigenetic lifestyle that is making things worse, maybe let’s talk about that.   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, yeah, I have a 22-year-old daughter and a 19-year-old son. So as you’re talking, I’m like, I can give the advice, but I’m not sure how to I can give the health advice, how to get it into them, parent   Dr. Joel Rosen: teacher and mom you don’t know what you’re talking about. Right?   Mindy Pelz: I’ll tell you what I would like to say if they were listening to me, you know, I think there’s a new concept that I’ve been studying. And I think it encompasses everything that you’re asking in this question. And the concept is called the cellular danger response that happens, it’s a defense response of our cells. And when our cells get the wrong oils, they get too many carbohydrates, they get toxins, they get stressed from the I was thinking when you’re talking about this, the phone is surgically attached to her hip. So every time she goes on there and sees something that somebody did on Instagram, that upsets her, she gets a stress a surge of cortisol, when we’re not getting enough sleep, when we’re getting Wi-Fi, I mean, you name it, when all of these things are happening to the cell, the cell goes into shutdown. And in the shutdown, what those mitochondria inside the cell do is they use the production of ATP to create a B, a signaling molecule to the other cells saying, We’re in stress, we’re in a crisis, we need to go into running from a tiger mode. Well, once in a crisis, you won’t burn fat, you if you won’t bring down inflammation, the mitochondria aren’t giving you enough energy to be able to heal, you’re not getting enough energy to think and the body starts to go into this massive breakdown mode. The challenge we have with a 19-year-old is they’re they feel invincible because the frontal lobe doesn’t fully kick in until they’re 25. So there they’re not understanding logical consequences. So on the parenting part of that what I’ve just done with my kids is really like, you know, if your energy isn’t where you want it, if your sleep is not where you want it, if your moods aren’t where you want it, how do we take your body out of this danger response. And at night teen, honestly, this is what I love about fasting, just in general, if you put a 19-year-old on intermittent fasting, just 13 to 15 hours routine. And what you’re doing is you’re calming that response down, it’s bringing inflammation down. So it’s a becomes a cool tool to take you out of that response.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I was gonna say that, hence the need for intermittent fasting, right. And now we’re back to and of course, the four things that they could be doing in terms of removing the oils and getting rid of the colors and the artificial flavor. So okay, so then, as far as what I like also about the concept of the reset and the reset Academy is there are so many different ways to customize fasting. So let’s maybe kind of go into that.   Mindy Pelz: Yes, thank you for pointing that out. Because in the new book, I talk a lot. There’s a whole chapter on how to build a fasting lifestyle. And there are three key measurements to a fasting lifestyle. One is that you vary your length of fasts. And the reason we want to vary it and this is common to people who fall in love with intermittent fasting is they want to do the same thing all the time. They’re like, Oh, this got me in a result. So I’m just going to keep doing it. And then one day they hit a wall and they’re like, Wait, this isn’t giving me a result anymore. And it’s because they didn’t vary it. So we teach in our reset Academy How to vary this, your different fasting lengths. Now you can very Get to your cycle, like I explained earlier, you can do a weekly variation, you can do a seasonal variation. And knowing what you’re trying to achieve with your health becomes important. Step number two of the fasting lifestyle is you got to vary your foods we’ve got, we’ve got close to 4000 different species of bacteria in our gut, and we’re still discovering more. And each one of those species of bacteria needs different food. So when we eat the same 15 foods over and over and over again, we create a monoculture of these bacteria, which affects everything from neurotransmitter production to estrogen breakdown. So we teach in our academy, how do you vary your foods? And then, as I said, how do you vary your foods to a woman’s menstrual cycle? How do you vary them according to menopausal cycles, things like that? And then the third one and this one is really important, I think, for everybody. But I want to say it’s incredibly important for women, which is surrounding themselves with a community to do health. And here’s why. There’s something that I wrote about this in the menopause reset, there’s something called the hormonal hierarchy, where sex hormones to balance those sex hormones, you’ve got to be insulin sensitive. To be insulin sensitive, you’ve got to get cortisol in check. And to get cortisol in check, your fastest way to get cortisol to balance is by understanding oxytocin. And oxytocin, we get in so many places in our lives, but one of the biggest places we get is through human connection. So when you enter into doing an activity, like we just got done doing a three-day water fasting here, and not everybody did it, but the people that wanted to do it, we rallied around each other. We do 15-day experiences of different facets all the time in my academy. And the purpose of that is a community because the community will raise oxytocin, which will lower cortisol, which will lower insulin, and will raise sex hormones. It’s that simple. But we’ve given so much power to medication, we’ve given so much power to our doctors, we forget that this chemical balance that I just spoke of, we can do on our own without any money, you know, without anything other than sheer intention and knowledge. And that’s what we’re trying to teach in the academy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, as awesome, I was gonna say, like, as you were building up that I was gonna start to talk about oxytocin. Because what Mindy, I do a lot of genomics, like I’m a super nerd in that way. And one of the things I tell people is this is my evolution is I had my adrenal fatigue problem. And people looked at me like I was crazy. When I would go to the doctor, I hadn’t even heard of it. I had an exercise physiology degree. I had a psychology degree at my doctor of chiropractic, and hundreds of 1000s of dollars in debt, my wife was pregnant with twins, and what’s this thing called adrenal fatigue, I would go to the doctors, and they would look at me like I’m crazy. And then I went down those rabbit holes. So then I heard about the HPA axis, which I don’t even think is a good term any that explains the extent of what’s going on. So what I looked at now is that it’s a demand and supply problem, you are not producing enough energy the at the demand you need to, and then you go into cell danger and your body, you know, makes choices of what they can do with that available, limited amounts of funds. The other way I look at it from a genomic standpoint is if you have too many cars on your mast cell highways, mast cells stimulate your HPA axis. So anything that stimulates mast cells is going to stimulate your HPA axis is going to increase your demand. Things like iron overload and iron dysregulation, which I talked about at the Biohacking Conference, which no one is talking about from a copper deficiency standpoint. Then there’s also EMFs, there are mTOR driving factors, there’s glutamate, there’s lime, there’s stress, there’s dopamine, that was the other thing I was gonna say is not only is that phone creating that cortisol, but it’s also creating a dopamine surge, which the dopamine is causing the mast cells. So you but here’s the amazing connection oxytocin puts its foot on that whole process as well. So that’s an amazing thing. And then the other thing I’ll tell you is if we do an oxytocin receptor, Gene polymorphisms, studies have shown that those people are more likely to be empaths. Believe it or not. So ultimately that means we don’t know if the gene is upregulated or downregulated. So is that receptor increasing its activity, or is it decreasing this activity? We’re not sure but what we do know is that your antenna is higher, and it’s bringing in all the frequencies from the world and whether we’re going through social media or lockdown or isolation. There is biased information that is being given to us from the media so that you have the Hatfields versus the McCoys, whatever it may be, all of that is that person is going to be more impacted by that, which is going to increase their oxygen consumption rate. And if they’re not respiring, at the cellular level, effectively, now they’re going to have a demand and supply problem even further. So the very first thing that I explain to people when I do genomic interpretation is, I need you to be aware that you have this polymorphism whether it’s one parent or two parents, but we tend to see these people being social work, healthcare, education, community service, and you need to know that no is a complete sentence, you need to have a boundary, you need to know that you’re not Mother Teresa, that you need to save the world, you need to be able to like turn that off because that’s gonna like as much as you can do your fasting. And as much as you can do, you’re a top of whatever your antioxidants and your nerf to and you’re no glutamine or no gluten, no gluten or whatever, you need to be aware of that tendency of your an empathic person and oxytocin is behind that. So I just wanted to share that with you, because I knew you were going.   Mindy Pelz: Yeah. I had never heard sorry, you seem that there is a gene that makes you more prone to be an empath isn’t that what it does is it creates resistance to oxytocin or creates in you when you have more receptors for oxytocin.   Dr. Joel Rosen: We know it’s the oxytocin receptor gene. So it codes for making the oxytocin receptor. We don’t know if it’s upregulated or downregulated. So does it produce more does it produce less, but the result is that person will be more empathic so that they’re getting more frequencies to their antenna, whether it’s up-regulated, and there are more antennas to hit or it’s down-regulated, you know, we’re not sure. But that’s, it’s one of the very first gene things that I go over with someone, or they want to know like, well, am I gluten-sensitive? Or this, you know, was mold a problem? I was like, Well before we even do that, you need to know you have this tendency, and they’re like, oh, my gosh, I can’t believe that. Like, I knew that was a thing. But yeah, I’ll send you the information after.   Mindy Pelz: Because one of the things around the cellular danger response that I see is that, and Wi-Fi is a great example, we could sit and argue about Wi-Fi all over the place. And you’ve got people saying that 5g doesn’t affect the human cells, you’ve got other people saying it’s going to be our demise. And what I think we’re missing in that conversation, is that everybody’s cellular response is going to be different. Genetics is one part of it, but what toxic load you have, what your diet like what your sleep, like, like everything we’ve talked about, it all is going to affect how your cells respond to your environment. So what you just taught me was, that there’s another way of looking at the fact that an empath is soaking up more of what’s going on in the world, and maybe having a stronger or quicker cellular danger response. So that was cool. Yeah, please send me the information.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I will. And I learned that you know, we don’t want things too little. We don’t want things too much. You want it in sort of that hermetic. falcate bell-shaped curve. the amount and you’re right, everyone is different. And, you know, your mentor and colleague pomp Daniel Pompa was talking about Chornobyl and how the soils can adapt, and our bodies always adapting, but we don’t want it to be prolonged. Because then that way, it’s no longer hormetic stress. So I think, yeah, the but um, so anyway, the question, I want to be respectful for your time, and I could do part two, part three, part four, or initially, we’re gonna be okay, this should only be five hours today. So it was gonna be five hours. Yeah. So so what I like to ask and it’s probably a springboard to everything we’ve talked about. But of all of that, I always ask, Hey, this is the truth about health podcast, and there’s a lot of sacred cows. And there’s a lot of misinformation and completely wrong information, and not-so-true information. But as it relates to health Mindy, what would you tell the younger self Mindy the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed? Now that you’re the sage-like exploit experienced Mindy, what would you have told the younger one that isn’t necessarily true about how that could have helped you a lot quicker or faster or further?   Mindy Pelz: Oh, this one’s very clear. Get to know your hormonal cycle and map every lifestyle habit you have to your hormone to your menstrual cycle. I am still to this day blown away that I figured this out for myself at 43, I should have been taught at, you know, 13, like I said earlier, how to map everything from food, to exercise to supplements, I mean, everything. And this is what we’re doing now with the book coming out at the end of the year we’re mapping everything to the cycle. But I think that is the biggest sacred cow that women, there’s one diet for women they should do all month long, I call BS on that. You should be changing your exercise you should be taking changing your supplements. I mean, there are so many things that we need to start to teach women how to map to their menstrual cycle. So that’s what I would have told her is to get to know that cycle.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, yeah, and you know, especially instead of what we have environmentally are epigenetic. Even much more important. I’m sorry to ask one more, but I do because it was on the tip of my paper. And I didn’t get to ask you it because I was enthralled with everything else. So one of the things I loved about your presentation was you went to a community, I think it was maybe in North Carolina or South Carolina. And you felt like you nailed that. I could resonate with it. Like you were like, Yes, I’m hot stuff. I nailed the talk. And then people didn’t walk away with actionable, what can I do about it? So can you get started, give us sort of an overview of what that was, and maybe how that changed your mission to make sure that you’re not just giving information, but you’re making sure that you’re imparting change by giving people tools that can be implemented versus the theory that we feel as providers because I think that’s a mission for me too, you know,   Mindy Pelz: Yeah, it was a wake-up call. And the short version of that story was that at the height of the pandemic, well, I mean, it was like three months into the pandemic, a principal in South Carolina reached out to me, she had watched my YouTube videos, and asked if I would come and talk to her teachers, her high school teachers about metabolic syndrome and how to help. And they were at that time that town in South Carolina was having an outbreak of COVID. Everybody was very concerned. So I show up, I give the Zoom presentation, and it was all on Zoom. And to your point, I was like, I nailed it, I gave him the nutrition advice I give him so much. And at the end of the call, a very brave man raised his hand and said, You know, I hear your theory on on oils. But I gotta tell you that when I’m looking at a set of peanut butter if I want to buy the one with good oil, it’s $8 More a jar than the one with bad oils. And that’s $8 that I don’t have. And then another woman raised her hand and said, You know, I honor what you just said, but you got to understand how hard we’re working. So when I leave school at five o’clock in the early evening, I just go through McDonald’s, and I pick up fast food because I’m so exhausted to do anything else. And my takeaway was, that I had given all this fancy nutrition advice. I’ve given all this, these fancy treatment plans. But what these people needed was a free tool, that was time efficient. And that’s what fasting is. And so I came out of that sort of kicking myself, but also fueling my mission, that the what I love about fasting is that every human on the planet can do it. You don’t need the resources, you just need the knowledge. And I literally, we changed the motto on my, my YouTube channel is now called knowledge is your fuel, because that’s really what you need to learn how to fast you just need knowledge. And once you get that down, it all works perfectly for your body.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s awesome. Thank you for sharing that, you know, just as a summary of what I picked up from the forum meetings is we as providers are in, I guess burden and I wouldn’t say burden but responsible for having a socioeconomic change, because you’re right like you look at how the food bill subsidizes foods and doesn’t give subsidies to foods that are more healthy for socio-economic people. It’s just such a travesty to me. And I think that we are burdened to make an impact through the supply and demand of the customer. And if we avoided certain things we could make a bigger impact. I’m still toiling about How I implement that with my mission so that we’re not just giving good advice. We’re free doing things that are free but also impacting the way that legislature and public health are practiced. And farm bill is taxed? I think we’re charged with a mission as doctors and educators to do something more than just give the information so sort of carrying on what you’re talking about.   Mindy Pelz: Yeah. And it really when you start to look at the paradigm around food and health, it’s so broken, and we can’t the subsidizing farms that are our mono-cropping and have no nutrient value is not great. And there’s I mean, there are so many things we can unpack about how we do health and food that is causing contributing to the metabolic problem that we have. Again, this is why I used to say, We got to go after big food, we got to help correct Big Pharma. And I now believe that we may never crack those two, there are too many profits driven in it. And it’s people don’t want to wake up, they’d rather be told your cornflakes in the morning your frosted flakes are going to be just fine for you. So this is why fasting to me is a tool because it is a resource everybody can use.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, I’m listening, I appreciate your time and your dedication, and your mission. And I’m aligned with everything that you do. I’m excited to post the links to all the different tools that you offer and your reset Academy so far. So thank you so much for joining us today. Mindy and I wish you nothing but future success and everything you do.   Mindy Pelz: Oh, thank you joy that Joel this was enjoyable. I loved it. So thank you for this great conversation. Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you and you have a great rest of your day. Mindy Pelz: Thank you. You too. To check out more about Dr Mindy  and her teachings click here    The post Amazing Biohacks to Overcome Adrenal fatigue with Intermittent fasting appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health so that they can get their health back quite quickly. And a privilege it is to have Jay Campbell here he is the master of hormone optimization and optimized healthcare space allowing him and the chief innovator to end disrupters to the sickness care model industry. And he is the leading global evangelist teaching men, women, and doctors how to optimize their hormones, their life, and their happiness. He is a sought-out doctor on the Best Doctors. He’s a researcher. He’s a leader in the field of hormone optimization. He has his podcast, the Jay Campbell podcast, and it has powerful articles and emails regarding biohacking hormones, health, and performance. I’m sure I could go on and on. But we need to get to the meat and potatoes of today, Jay but thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you spending some time with us today.   Jay Campbell: It’s an awesome privilege. And I’m humbled and honored to be here with you, Doc. And I’m going to call you Doc and Joel at various points times in the show. But I’m grateful to be here, man. So let’s rock.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, me too. And you know, I’ll tell you just transparently, I didn’t know you. And we talked at a conference together last month. And I’ll tell you how, how nice it was because I was nervous and how nice it was for you to come up to me and shake my hand and tell me what a great job I did. That was really, really great. And I appreciate that. The other thing I wanted to say is, once I read your PowerPoint presentation for getting prepared for today, because you spoke right after me, I must not have been in the room because I was just relieved to finish my conversation. So you have so many gems in that presentation, we can go into so many different ways to help people that are listening here. But I always love to hear the backstory. And you know, being a holistic provider and ultimately getting focused on the integration of all health modalities for optimal health. Why don’t you just give our listeners and myself a background J as to how you got to where you got to given your life experiences.   Jay Campbell: Yeah, for sure, man, it’s a long story, I’m gonna give you the highest level 100,000 foot some, you know, I’m an ex-pro athlete, almost nine kids, had a cup of coffee, played basketball in Austria overseas when I was 23 years old, came back to the states and became a guy who went out into I was from the East Coast originally and moved out to the West Coast to get into Hollywood and be an actor and one of those guys. And you know, very truthfully, I got out of that fast when I saw what that was right? Without going into details about that. And I just naturally acclimated to sales and marketing because I’m a great communicator from my upbringing and stuff like that my father moved me around. I was in five high schools and five states in four years. So I always had to be that new guy, and I had to be good with my communication skills. And then as an athlete, you know, I was I had to beat everybody else out at a new location. At the age of 29. I was still playing, you know, essentially recreationally being a very high-level men’s adult basketball league in Los Angeles. I got kicked in the testicles went out, you know, normal. And then within two months, man, my health declined. So I went to a PPO provider, you know, a sick care guy back before sick care was truly sick care. This is 1999. And he was just, you know, I mean, again, there’s no luck right in the university. It’s all synchronicities. But he recommended I see an endocrinologist because he didn’t understand why someone like me was struggling like it was. It turned out I saw a world renowned guy who was just in the referral book in Southern California, Dr. Raymond Scruggs, and he took my blood panels and I had 237 or something like that, which is the total testosterone and free testosterone level of a geriatric and he was like, Look, I can put you on therapeutic testosterone. And I’ll have the writers rein in a couple of months, but go home, talk to your fiancee. I wasn’t married at the time. I was very close. It makes sure she’s cool with it. And then you know, let me know. So anyway, I went home, Dora was like, Hey, babe, you know, and by the way, this is my first wife. She’s long gone. Shout outs to her and Kelly. She said to me, you’re a smart guy. You know, I had a molecular biology minor in college, and I was always like a very studious, nerdy guy when it came to this kind of stuff. She’s like, Yeah, why not? But you know, truth Joe. I didn’t know anything about therapeutic testosterone at that point, but I trusted this guy. And obviously, I still did a little own research on the internet in 1999. And was like, okay, cool. So to fast forward again, a very, very long amazing story. He put me on to testosterone and literally within eight weeks of my life, I mean, I was like, I was 18. Again, I had no low back pain. I was jumping out of the gym, and my workouts were found I was you know, much more energy better cognition sexually. I was like an animal. And so he was wanting to take me off and I was like, Whoa, bro, I’m not going off this like no chance. Right? So, you know subsequently from there like the eight the next day From the age from eight to 10 of the next years, I just became the student of this, I read everything that you could find there really wasn’t much unfortunately online, if you could read Russian or Bulgarian you could probably find some stuff because they were tracking their track and field athletes. And they were giving therapeutic testosterone to them since the 70s. But there was nothing really in the Western literature was there were people that had HIV, people who were suffering from wasting diseases because these are the people that were using these medications therapeutically. So obviously, there were no compromise patient population groups where they had the research, but I reached out to a lot of these people as I was learning and becoming a student of this. And after 10 years, I tell people this all the time, I had, you know, one or two people everywhere for everybody that I would meet because I was a corporate guy in the digital automotive marketing space, I would they would look at my physique. And they would ask me, Wow, how do you keep yourself in such condition, and I would look and point blank in the eye, and you know, me, I’m a very transparent guy. And so I use therapeutic testosterone. And so at that time in the world, I would either get this look of like, you know, pawrents, like, you’re on steroids. Or I would get, you know, guys like you and me, they’d be like, Wow, tell me more. So it was always like one or two of those things. And so eventually, about 1012 years later, some of my closest friends were like, bro, you’re gonna write a book about this? Okay. And at that point, again, I have no formal medical training. I was like, you know, I’m successful in what I’m doing. I don’t want to, like bring any kind of unnecessary, you know, you know, being looked at. So I reached out to like one of the world’s biggest attorneys who didn’t know me from Adam, I was a nobody then, and just basically sent my white paper on my book and said, Hey, if somebody was to write a book about using therapeutic testosterone, you know, under the guidance of a physician, but as a layperson, what would happen and it was Rick Collins is a very famous guy is now a close friend of mine. And he said, Well, you know, it’s interesting that you said that to me because we need that. But you know, there’s a risk, so I shut it down and stop. Now I was 40, I want to say 41, or 42. At this time, I also sent the white paper to three people that I just met on the internet, right from reading their books, and one of them was Nelson virgle, who wrote the book, testosterone demands guide, and built to survive and Nelson’s claim to fame is that he had HIV. And so he was using therapeutic testosterone to survive, literally, okay, he got my email, which again, I just found on the internet, God bless the internet, and responded three months later, because he was a national of Venezuela. And at the time, when I sent it to him, he was in Venezuela dealing with all the shit that was happening in Venezuela at that time. And he read it and emailed me in the middle of that I woke up one morning, and he was like, I don’t know who you are, but we need to talk. And so as I like to say, standing on the shoulders of giants, they kind of mentored me and coached me and I published my book about a year later. Okay, and then that book came out in 2015. And it became very quickly the number one selling book on Amazon for men’s health. And then subsequently, dude, I’ve met a bunch of amazing doctors, people like yourself, researchers, bla, bla, bla started traveling to the conferences. And then I wrote, you know, five more books in the next say, approximate five years on fasting, metabolic flexibility, health optimization, and then my you know, my real I guess master thesis is the testosterone optimization therapy Bible, which is 600 pages and over 1000 clinical research studies. As you know, now, a book that no one could read. Nobody’s gonna read a 600 page book. But in truth, there’s so much more in that book. And that was kind of the book that really sold me to the biohacking anti aging community is like, holy shit. This dude has like, really deep-level resource information. So here I stand, you know, doing podcasts with people like you now, you know, fast forward three or four years just to keep it in. I went to Peru and 2019 with my wife and another couple and I was molecularly altered from being in the Sacred Valley for 13 days, I had the world’s number one site for testosterone optimization, it was called to t revolution.com. I had between 15 and 20,000 Unique Visitors come in a month I had all these people that want to know about testosterone information, I consulted with doctors, and it was a business. And dude, I literally was like, eff that. When I come back, I’m Jay Campbell, raise your vibration guy. I don’t care what happens to my brand. I don’t care what happens to the people who follow me. If they don’t jive with the importance of raising human consciousness, they can fly kites. Right? So that was in 2019 and September so here we are almost now three years later, and it literally exploded my brand bro. The amazing thing is, is that I kept my standing in the quote unquote biohacking hormone optimization space, you know, even though I don’t do as much there anymore. But I’ve met so many amazing people to talk about consciousness and spirituality. So essentially, it shifted and expanded my brand. And now I have this amazing ability to talk to amazing people like you about all those different things.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, super cool story. A couple of things that I always like to make observations about is that just the success that leaves clues and ask asking the question, why not? Like, why not reach out to these people? I can, you know, just, I want answers and I want to move forward. And it’s not a question of if it’s just how and when. So I love that. I also love the term molecularly altered, that’s awesome term. As far as before the molecular alteration. Were along the way. Jay, did you have because, you know, raising your vibration was the new j, if you will, however, were along the way. Did you have little smoke signals about the sickness base care versus the health wellness care was that after the raising vibration?   Jay Campbell: So that was before? I’ll just it’s a great question. Nobody ever asked me that. I’ve always been a seeker. Like in sick, like, when I was six, I ran out of the back of Catholic Church. And my dad chased me out of there. And he’s like, where are you going, and I’m I don’t shit, you’re not to this day, I don’t even know how I knew this. It’s like my soul was aching. And I said I’m not going back to that cold. I was six years old. So I’ve always been this person that knew that the orthodoxy and the establishment were full of bullshit, as you and I both know, and that we were being taught and trained, probably the opposite of the truth, if not a total half truth or deception altogether. But I was always very private about that, like I, you know, I wasn’t talking about this, anywhere outside of my close circles. I did get asked to be in a group on Facebook called the decoders of truth. I built the group in 2016, was a Facebook private group called the decoders of truth with a couple of other guys who are now some of the world’s leading esoteric researchers, they’re on Ancient Aliens, and the group blew up, we have like 46,000 people in the group in a matter of like six months. And so I’m still the guy with you know, the Facebook account that built the group, it’s now only about 29,000 people because, you know, Facebook fact checkers, and, you know, they’ve removed all these things and stuff like that. And again, Facebook, is it what is it? What is Facebook at this point, but the reality is to your question is that I probably was one of the first people and I and I got this from, you know, going into the conferences and talking to the minds, but like to start talking about the statement of sick care and illness medicine, I want to say in 2017, you know, that’s when it started to dawn on me that this was all just complete BS, that big pharma, the Rockefellers, you know, they were running this, you know, this, this was a giant, you know, it’s like the 2020 to 2022 shit that you and I and everybody else has endured, this has been a conspiratorial organized racket, literally, from day one, you know, built in some office, somewhere internationally. My assumption is, you know, 10 years ahead of time, and, with medical allopathic medicine, I mean, this was built by John D. Rockefeller in the family. I mean, this was built in the 20s. You know, I have a good friend, and I don’t want to rabbit hole, but I have a really good friend named Pierre sybok, in England. And that’s not his real name. That’s his pen name for his books, but he’s writing a book right now, on the history of the Wii. And when it comes out, dude, if it’s allowed to be published, I mean, people are going to be shocked. I mean, this isn’t news to someone like you. But if they, you know, the average person can read about the actual V industry and understand like, what it was and how it was created, and how all the deceptions of, you know, polio and the assault vaccine and all this nonsense, like if this gets out into the mainstream in the way that he wants it to, it’s gonna be a game changer.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, a couple of things that I love, just organizing your feedback. So ultimately, you had it within you and I can resonate with that I’m from a traditional medical family, and I just never accepted the passive role of health, or not being able to acquire and be proactive. As far as I feel like it’s the perfect storm now where you have all of the environmental outlets of social media, and then chemicals and toxins, and then the ability to monetize and productize and so many things coupled with the honing in on who you want to influence and only giving them information you want them to hear. And then on top of that, where I think this is where it gets more esoteric Jay is Gene snips that used to be favorable for us in the past. So the warrior genes where if you need to continue that adrenaline so that you survive the encounter, then you would pass that on to your lineage. However, now because of all of these environmental disruptors, those make those less favorable than more favorable nowadays. So, so Okay, so with that, then I guess I’d love to just go down the Raise Your Vibration rabbit hole. I mean, there are other things I’d love to talk about, but Now that you said you had this molecular alteration, and you come back and like, Okay, I’ve been amazing in this field, I blew up and now I’m scrapping it. So maybe in what was the epiphany moment? What was the I got to do this now and I got to express myself? What was that all about?   Jay Campbell: The amazing question again. Thank you for asking it. Bro. Me and my wife. And the two people, George Cordova and his wife, Liz Cordova went with us to Peru. We’re on the lake Lake Titicaca, one of the seven wonders of the world, so to speak. And we had an indigenous chuckling guide. And he made ceremony right on the lake and you know, people say made ceremony did you do Ayahuasca? No, it wasn’t Ayahuasca it was just the native, you know, leaf, I forget what they’re called. But they’re just the leaf of the higher Andes. And I swear man, like, this usually gives me tears sometimes when I just retell the story, or even just think it but we made the ceremony on the lake, and all four of us, at the same time, were overwhelmed with tears. It was like the lake kissed us. It was the most awe-inspiring, you know, life-altering. I mean, all of us were like looking at Joe, like, why are we crying like we couldn’t comprehend it. And it was at that moment that I just had that that, like you said, that aha moment that like, wow, this is, you know, my purpose in place here in this time in this space is this invented personality of Jay Campbell is here to teach and lead, you know, the, on the importance of raising human consciousness that you know that I mean, it was dude, honestly, and I know, you know, this, but you know, for the audience. It was like the first time that I realized that everything was alive. And then everything was conscious. And that everything in our ecosystem, from the rocks, the trees, the fish, the water, the air that we breathe like everything is alive, and everything is sentient, and everything is conscious, and the indigenous people of me, so America have a term for that it’s called on me, I started researching this. When I got back to our hotel that later that day because that was the second day that we were in the auntie plateau of Lake Titicaca, which is like, I don’t know, it’s like 13,000 feet, you know, it’s high in the hit in the mountains of the Andes. I started Googling, at my hotel, they have the internet there, get escaped the internet anywhere you go these days. But I started Googling, like, you know, what I experienced. And that’s what came up the word on me, which is essentially divine reciprocity. It is the awareness of the indigenous, which was the Incas, and the Aztecs, and all the means to American people, that everything is conscious, everything is sentient, and everything is live. And because of that, you have to understand that like, what you do matters, right. So like, at that point, I realized, like, I’m never going to litter. I’m never going to kill a bug. I mean, like, everything is alive. And there are repercussions, you know, for desecrating life, you know, and that’s the one thing that you know, I think, and especially in western material cultures, that we don’t understand until we understand it. And so it was that aha moment that led me to think like, you know, what, I got to come back, and I have to do what I’m being divinely called to do, which is to teach people, again, through my work and my content through my creation, that consciousness is all that matters. And you know, this, and I can get metaphysical and I can go into the works of Dr. David Hawkins, I can talk about Walter Russell, I can talk about Joseph better, I can talk about Neville Goddard, you know, at the base, all we are is consciousness, right? Like we’re not these physical bodies, we are worrying, you know, electrons standing waves of energy. And that energy is infinite and eternal and ever expanding, you know, energy cannot be condensed, compressed, or destroyed. So it’s like when you get to that level, where it’s you realize, like, okay, now I gotta get that information out to more people so that we can all get to that place of like, we’re not petty, fighting, you know, duality, Republicans, Democrats, liberals conservative, it’s like, as you know, you kind of mentioned already the esoteric aspect of things. It’s like, whoever is in control, and that’s a whole podcast. They’re designed for us to be at odds with each other. It always has to be equal and opposite, you know what I mean? So it’s like, whatever your side they want you dug into one side. So it’s like, once you realize that we’re all equal, who gives a shit about our co-workers or our religions or our income levels? We’re all equal. We’re all this divine spiritual energy. That’s when you start realizing that the only solution is to opt out of the bullshit, but it’s hard bro. As you know, you know, you know like my good friend Rex Bear says bills and issues everybody’s got them. So it’s like, you know, you got to stay connected to the matrix but at the same level, you also have to become aware that you are not this physical body or this personality, you know, this personal name that you’ve created this ego mindset, and that there’s so much more and so that was it, dude. I mean, It didn’t matter, you know, I, you know, my wife thought I was crazy. You know, like God, you have all these people to follow you have all these people doing this, like, how are you going to do this? And I said I didn’t know but I was gonna let it happen. And the universe guided me and honestly did I didn’t lose a lot of my audience or traffic, I had some people, you know, that were like, What the hell are you doing? Dude, you’ve jumped, jumped the shark, you’ve gone full woowoo. But for the most part, most of the people that were following me for those reasons, they’re now like, even following me for the spiritual stuff, which is so cool. And I just think that was the evolution of my consciousness and my awareness.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I love the story. I learned a lot of philosophies through direct response marketing guys that I used to study back in the past, like Dan Kennedy, and Jay Abraham and all that stuff. And one of the things I remember is, the reciprocity demands payment in advance, which I think is pretty amazing, right? Because you have to, you have to show it to reap it. And that means you already have to have that insight and application before you get that reward, if you will. But what I wanted to get to was, and also with the marketing message as well is, you don’t go in a crowd and say, Hey, you and expect everyone to turn around. But when you say Hey, Michael, you know, with the glasses and the nap pack backpack, or you know, if you have a specific message to someone, you’ll have them turn around, and it’s just a testament to you in terms of you had already had a really deeper relationship than just the outer layer of the onion of hormone optimization. Are you frank about it? Yeah. However, what I would be interested to hear the story through is okay, well, I can’t change what I’ve done already. Because that is a earlier stage of development of J. But now I also want to bring in the vibration. So now maybe let’s go into how you had to marry the two given that you are already doing it this way. And you weren’t really concerned about losing people, I guess you just wanted to add more value to the ones that did resonate with that new message. So how did you blend the two? And what were you doing before that now needed the change of the vibration concept?   Jay Campbell: I mean, again, another great question. I mean, it was, you know, at the beginning, I remember sitting on the plane flying back on Latin America, which is, you know, a subsidiary of Delta, from Peru to Los Angeles. And it just sitting there like had all these amazingly, like all inspiring thoughts. running through my mind, I also purchased this book at a bookstore, I always keep it really close to me, which was called Return of the children of the light. And this is a profound book. It’s just a little 165 page book by Judith bluestone Pollock, which is clearly a pseudonym, because it’s got so much profound information in it, but I just finished that book. I actually picked it up at the bookstore below Machu Picchu. So I was reading it kind of through our trip as we were going to all these amazing places in the Sacred Valley, but I just knew that the strategy was TRT revolution, which was my my base, my home site, which everybody knew me from and I had all my traffic to was going to J campbell.com. Now this is amazing, by the way to tell you this right now, because it’s actually exploding my brain right now. Like I have BDNF flying through my head. The first thing I found out when I landed because I had texted my guy before he took off through WhatsApp, my IT guy to go get J campbell.com. Domain. And when I landed, it was like, Sorry, bro, somebody owns it. They’re cyber stalking or cybersquatting on it. Jay C. Campbell, the middle initials available. I said, Okay, well, why that? Dude, I’ve literally I should share my screen right now. I just acquired J campbell.com.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Yeah. That’s interesting.   Jay Campbell: Yeah. How cool is that? Right. So but but but to your answer to get a little bit deeper. I just knew that if I migrated my website from TRT revolution to J campbell.com. The rest would just take out take it the rest of it happened by itself. And sure, it would be weird and I had a lot of like, you know, weird URL issues and stuff like that with people saying like, what the hell but like I said, I just kind of let the universe God source you know, whatever you want to call it consciousness. Handle it. And you know, I had some issues with SEO, initially, but you know, it took it took about six months. And I swear, dude, I just naturally migrated my content. You know, I started talking about spiritual things on my YouTube videos. I started sending emails about spiritual content to my email list. And you know, I didn’t have as many I know Initially, my people that you know, architected my J Campbell slash to, to revolution ecosystem thought I was nuts. They were literally trying to talk me out of this. They’re like, Dude, are you want, and I was like, it doesn’t matter. I don’t care, you cannot talk me out of this, this is the right thing to do. I mean, divinely led and called and inspired. Trust me, it’s gonna work out. And it did. But it was really just like I said, just having the vision and being fully surrendered to the idea that this was the right thing to do. And I’m telling you, man, like, by by September, and by the way, we didn’t talk about this, but this is right before the scam duck. Right. So I had an agency that was helping me with this transition, Joel that I hired in November. And as you know, everything started to happen at the end of March of 2020. And literally in two weeks, I had, I had been with these guys for five months. And the two weeks since they announced the shutdown, they lost 3035 of their 46 People at the agency was a big Scottsdale agency, they worked with a bunch of influencers. And I just remember the gal that was the owner of the agency who I had met, I had flown into Scottsdale to be interviewed by them before we decided on them as my agency. And it was at the time, it was a big commitment for me to work with them. I’m so sorry, we’re gonna have to let you go. I don’t even have my own team. I’m letting everybody go. So, you know, I have that to deal with. And as you know, you and me and everybody else in the world was dealing with the scam that make a pandemic, or whatever the hell it was. And so it was weird, because like, all of a sudden, I kept going, I kept doing live streams, I kept going to my office, even though people were told to stay at home. And I kept talking about spiritual issues. And I kept interviewing people about, you know, COVID, and what was really happening and stuff like that. And honestly, by September, really late August of that year, all of the transitional content, it started to blow up, I started having all sorts of people message me, hey, we want to have you come on this guy’s podcast, we want to bring this person on your podcast, and most of the people were spiritual people. You know, there were people in the consciousness space. And so I’m like, wow, this is incredible, because I wasn’t literally like proactively recruiting this, it’s just now a natural kind of ebb and flow of what I essentially manifest, you know, consciously. So that’s kind of how it happened. And honestly, ever since then, it’s been a whirlwind. You know, I still have tons of people who want to talk to me about hormones, which I mostly ignore, unless they’re people like, you know, high level. And then, of course, the overwhelm of consciousness. I mean, I’m blessed, bro, I have so many people that want to talk to me about consciousness. Now, I don’t do any recruiting for my podcast anymore. You know, like I told you like, they’re very few people are even bring on my podcast right now, because my queue is so big. But I’m just blessed that now a lot of amazing people want to interview me or want to come on to J Campbell podcast that speak about consciousness and stuff. And I think I look at you as kind of the bridge though. Because like you are a successful, you know, physician, wellness, functional medicine, however you want to define yourself, but you also bridge spirituality and consciousness. And I believe that this is I don’t even believe it. I know it. This is where we’re going. This is where we’re going. This is going to be the model of wellness.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s cool. Thank you for the compliment. So as far as the thing, the bridging gap, with that being said, I think is and actually metaphorically, it’s the same thing too, in terms of oxygen consumption rate. So just sort of hold that there for a second. You know, you talk about the, the Buddhists and the people that are able to control their autonomic nervous system through breath work, right, you’re able to tap into your entire physiology through controlling your how you utilize your your oxygen, if you will. And so you and I just had that conversation before we started that, you know, I used to see a lot of men that would do poorly with testosterone because they didn’t have magnesium. And I was saying to you Well, in my talk, the thing that I talked about is the biggest problem, the number one problem is we don’t breathe at the cellular level, effectively, we don’t make energy. And as a result, we burn through all our magnesium. So I guess the question would be Have you been finding with that being said, because I’m sure you didn’t throw the baby out complete with the bathwater? That’s your earlier passion. Are you finding now Jay, that even with this spiritual jam that you got going on, that the friction is removed, or just the oxygen consumption rate is lower so that people are getting more rounded integrative responses from all your protocols? Are you finding it to be catalystic in that way?   Jay Campbell: and I’m 100% in fact, and you don’t know this? Well you know about this, but you don’t know about this because it just happened in the last week. I just sold my company. So a seer costume which is my peptide company, you know, cosmeceutical peptides for face and hair, which you know we have a true The, you know, I would say revolutionary product for the hair product, it’s, it’s patented, we just sold the company, it sucked a lot of my day to day life and creativity out of me in 2021. Because we expanded, we essentially blew up. And, you know, I became for who I was essentially, because we were very small, very streamlined, you know, steady ship, the CEO in my functionality, you know, my partner was the comp was the, the maker of the product and the product, you know, the, essentially the developer and the formulator. And I was the face. So that sucked out a lot of my life in 2021 was now I’m like, free. So to answer your question, the friction was removed, but because of the stress of the day to day of work running us here in 2021, not so much in 2020 because it was still fledgling, you know, we went from like doing 5000 a month to 60,000 a month. And then 2021 We went on Ben greenfields podcasts, and we exploded, you know, and then we became a legitimate company that just sold for, you know, what we sold for. that still required, a lot of management, insight, involvement, and energy for me on a day-to-day basis. And that now literally officially sold. We’re still 10% owners of the company, we have an upside kicker and stuff like that. But that is officially now not my day to day life. So I’m now free to be extremely creative, to talk to people about hormones. And yes, bro, I still have massive amounts of information and data. And very truthfully, again, it’s a great question. I don’t really talk about this much. I know this now through my meditation in my inner work, practice that the deeper you go into stillness, the more you’re able to access everything, right, because it’s my awareness slash belief that we do know everything. But when we descend into these physical bodies, we choose to forget it’s kind of the veil of forgetfulness. So I believe that all of us, the more we focus on our inner work, practice, have access to this like universal database. You know, people call it the Akashic records. There’s other names for it, the Hall of Records, whatever, I feel like you can access that information, because I’m not gonna lie to you do, like people ask me questions on now on podcasts, consciousness, people about quantum physics, and I talk about quantum physics, like I have a master’s in, you know, and that’s from my reading of many books on quantum physics, but it’s also from me, sitting in stillness every morning and having access to that database. So one thing I want to say, because your questions is a great question at the very beginning of it, the most, the number one problem with hormone optimization in the space is that the average doctor doing it has no effing clue what they’re doing. So you get a physician. And again, you cannot disparage physicians. Because at the end of the day, as you and I both know, physicians also have to eat, they have to pay college tuitions, and stuck in homes and mortgages and all the other same shit. And as you know, it’s harder and harder today for a physician to make money because of the insurance industry and subrogation and state medical licensing boards and all these chemicals that want to tap into your intake your body. So it’s like I get that they’re attempting to learn and navigate this as everybody else is kind of on their own. And as you know, if we really take a big picture and pull the onion back, dude, you’re not teaching this. This is a nuanced experiential body of practice. That’s why the doctors come to me, and they consult with me on how to do this, because I’ve been doing it for 22 years, right? Like I learned from an amazing teacher, it’s always standing on the shoulders of giants, but then it was just completely tinkering and experimenting and working with various doctors and using every delivery system and doing all these things. So it’s like, you know, I had to learn through doing it, you know, it wasn’t just interpreting the research and reading the studies, it was actually learning about it. So, you know, you know, to talk about magnesium depletion. I mean, there weren’t even any doctors, you know, up to like three years ago, that even understood anything about the kind of stuff that you’re talking about right now. And I’m talking about the best guys, because that’s all I work with. I don’t work with these, like garden variety chop shops, you know, we call them windmill clinics, and like the hormone optimization space, they’re on every corner and every major city, hey, for 299, you can get your testosterone, you know, replaced or optimized, right. And those guys have no idea what they’re doing, and they’re causing untold harm to God knows how many men and women but you know, the truth is, is that people like you and I are really now out there. Attempting, I would say attempting because all we can do is push our information into the universe and whether people receive it or not, it’s on them, but attempting to inform and enlighten. You know, and like I said, like, when you tell us you’re talking about magnesium depletion, dude, you’re in a very small select company of guys who understand that, you know what I mean? And so it’s like, this is like the kind of stuff that like where I want to go with this as we expand health into these frontiers that obviously we’re you and I are really taking it to is what we get. And I see as I told you before we started talking on the show, you know, I see is an integrative and alchemy, you know, perspective of looking at the body, soul, heart, mind, heart, mind, body and soul. And literally understanding like how to optimize it, because again, it’s almost a synergy or a triune, or whatever, where if one’s off, the other one cannot be optimized, right? Like so many guys, even in the hormone optimization space today still look at their endocrine system, and they forget thyroid, or they look at the thyroid, and they forget the endocrine system, or they look at the pancreas, and they’re like, Oh, we’re gonna change your diet and suppress blood glucose. But then they’re not looking at testosterone and thyroid. So it’s like, you know, all these things are integrates your symphony. And without balancing or optimizing one, you can’t, you can’t forget the others. And that’s where I see so many guys doing. So like I didn’t really see where this is going. Whereas like what you’re doing with reading people’s DNA and understanding people’s, you know, history from both epigenetic and genetic level, that’s how you create the perfect health optimization model is analyzing all the data. And then giving that stuff from a biofeedback standpoint to the patient, and then having the patient like know all of that, before they start, because most guys today are still doing it gunshot, they start them on six or seven different chemical agents, like you said, and then they deplete magnesium along with other other horrible things that happened to him from side effects standpoint, and then they think it sucks, or it doesn’t work. I mean, I’ve got 1000s of people say to me, testosterone replacement, or optimization doesn’t work. It just causes side effects. And I always have to be like, No, it works, it just doesn’t work for most people, because they don’t know how to do it correctly. So it’s like learning how to do this. And that’s where we are dude. I mean, that’s why the medical profession struggles to hormonally optimize people because they just don’t know how to do it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, on the bridge of the consciousness, the frequency, the vibration, is what really puts it to life, right? It’s what what, what life is, and the veil of forgetfulness. I have these little, I guess, Campbell isms that I’ve been writing down already. So that’s awesome. So what I think about which I’ve been saying for a while, which I had a couple Aha, I’m lucky in the sense that I had an exercise physiology, my GPA really sucked because I was away from home, I was on the varsity soccer team, there was an electrical called going to classes and, you know, whenever I do enough just to get by, and then that hit me in the butt when I came to apply for chiropractic college in Canada. So I had to go back to school. And I got a second degree in psychology and I almost just continued through psychology, because it was so much more interesting to me than in the the other information, but what I came to understand was how fortuitous that was, because I look at it Jay in terms of on the most ground floor cellular level, even above the cells is the frequency right upon the cell frequencies. And then at the below that, or downstream is the cellular level, then is the tissue level, then is the organ level, then is the system level. And people forget on the system level, outside of that is the frequency again, and so where I where I came to learn is okay, if we know what it is that we want, at the 30,000 foot level and not just extrinsic things, but in transit, what’s our purpose? What’s our mission? What’s our greater, you know, our greater good? What do we want, like at a at a like really succinct level, and then reverse engineering that so that you do achieve that resonance, that’s where you can start to put it together. So to your point is, I like the idea of, of the integration of learning the information that’s accessible to everyone. But until you actually get in the cockpit and fly the plane, you’re gonna need to get in there and understand how the wind blows and how the altitude affects your flying meaning. You don’t know until you’re actually in the in the actual matrix, if you will, applying the the set or outside of the matrix, applying the system. And then going back and evolving and using that information to get greater insights and greater purposes. I think you’re right, that’s where it’s where it’s heading to. And just one last thing I want to say is, there’s a book that I just finished reading, it’s called hero on a mission. And one of the exercises they have you do is write your eulogy at the end. And one of my secrets that’s not a secret anymore as I love Jack lane. I thought the guy was so way ahead of his time, though. I’m literally Yeah, so I went on the internet to read his eulogy. And the guy. I mean, he was an innovator, except for Vic Tani. He was the first to bring exercise so I have that as like some in some weird kind of manifesting way that bringing the whole new way that health and wellness This is practice from a hormone optimization, if you will. But that comes because you’re doing all the other things first that the frequency cells, tissues, organs, systems frequency. So I guess where I wanted to go is anywhere with that. But what I did want to touch upon it with you is what what you’ve learned maybe just as this this complete left turn, unless you want to comment on what we just said, is on Metformin, and how important that is for balancing growth and recycling or a toffee G, but I’m sorry to sort of switch it up on you. And oh, no.   Jay Campbell: I think it’s great. But I do want to address what you said, Because bro, you’re nailing it. Yeah, so what I say now is, and this is crude or rudimentary, but I say, you know, let’s look at disease as a manifestation of what causes disease, right? So if we know what you and I do, and most of our audience is going to be a sophisticated audience, and they can follow us some people might not but you know, if you’re not, and you don’t pay attention, but most of them will, like you said, it’s frequency, we are vibrating molecules and standing waves of energy. And our vibration determines our physiological health state, right. So if you aren’t vibrating and victimhood fear or shame, which as you know, you presented the planet most likely is from the last few years from the scam, wearing masks, keeping your distance staying away from human energy fields, like so in fear all the time, not exercising, not eating right in the autonomic nervous system fight or flight response constantly, your physiological health degrades, but to what you just said, you’ve got a low vibration, which is going to cause inflammation, which is going to cause cellular degradation, as you said, which is ultimately going to lead to one of, if not multiple diseases of aging, which then is what kills the physical avatar body. So yes, you’re nailing it now to switch to Metformin. And by the way, what you and I are talking about it is so profound, I mean, I have a company now, that is cutting up my stuff. I can’t wait to get this because like the questions that you’ve asked in the Sci-Fi, I always think that in podcasts, people like you and I have all this information. But you and I can’t extract it. We need somebody to ask us the right question to extract. So your question is just amazing, because it’s like pulling it out of my brain. So I’m grateful that you did that Metformin, dude. I mean, you know, my article is put on the Harvard, you know, Edu-site, you know, that whatever that research pub, you know, thing is, I’ve written so many articles on Metformin. I mean, literally, you know, if you ask Dr. Peter Itea, he’s like, Well, you know, guys, Jay Campbell, He’s the world’s leading expert on that point. And so obviously, I’m a pro-Metformin, Hongke. I’ve read everything, I continue to read everything. I’ve been personally using a plant, you know, which is what Metformin is, since I started therapeutic testosterone, which again, is no coincidence, right? There’s the synchronicity in the universe. So I’ve been on Metformin for 21 years. I did my biological age with true diagnostic. I’m sure you know, Ryan, and my I’m 51. And I’m 20.4, according to that from a cellular age standpoint, right. So I’m doing a lot of things right now. I personally believe that I owe a lot of that to using Metformin for two decades, my wife has been on Metformin for a decade. Now, for the people that are listening to me right now that it’d be like, Yeah, but Metformin is in the news, and they’re recalling it and it’s got a night to nominated and in blah, blah, blah. I mean, at the end of the day, this is my tinfoil hat. And I know you’re with me on this. And by the way, I am stepping on the shoulders of giants when I say this, but I have a very famous neurological surgeon who I will not name his name, which you know, who he is telling me about eight years ago, that if Metformin was in the water supply, there would be no hospitals. That is how profound of a life extending and life altering agent again as a plant it is now as you know, the medical schools teach doctors in one on one and 102 that it causes renal failure or renal impairment and all this complete and utter nonsense because again, Big Pharma cannot patent it. They cannot make money on it. They give it away for free in your state, bro. It’s fair Publix in Florida. There’s no profit angle for you know, big pharma and big Madison to make money on it. But at the end of the day, it does so many things to enhance, you know, telomeres. I mean, I mean, I could go into the science it’s not worth it. You know, I’ve talked about so much and I’ll let you guys can link to the article that I wrote on it. It’s like 11,000 words. It’s just a failsafe for a person who is is, you know, desiring to live longer and stronger, to enhance cells to prevent cancer to suppress blood glucose to enhance and improve the creation of, you know, what is it? Accra, mon Asia, and the biome? I mean, it’s just there’s just so much data clinically. And by the way, I always tell people this is what’s so crazy about this drug is the data is again in compromised type two diabetic metabolically resistant, deranged, obese humans, how it extends their life. So it was like always, for me, it was like, Well, this is simple. You just extrapolate in a healthy person who’s extent who’s desiring to live a life extension lifestyle to take this, how can this not be better? Right? So now again, you’re gonna get the backlash, and you’re gonna get the fights and you’re gonna see people attack this. And you know, whenever I see idiots that are doctors on Twitter, or Instagram attacking that form, and I instantly like I just, I, it’s my mission for an hour to make sure that they understand that they’re clowns, and that they don’t know how to extrapolate or interpret data, and that the data isn’t again, a very diseased, you know, patient population group. Let me just say this. Before this happened, you know, I became this Jay Campbell, he’s the guy talked about that form. And there was a doctor that went after me online four years ago. And now her and I are very close friends, and I don’t remember her name, it doesn’t matter. She lives in Las Vegas. She’s cool. She wrote an article about how Metformin causes mitochondrial dysfunction. Now I read it or you know, and then everybody sent it to me. And I read her article, and I was looking at her disease, I mean, her studies that she was using to interpret the data. And it was clear that she was a well-reasoned person, and that she was designed to help people and she, she works with a lot of obese women, and she helps them and she’s a nice person. I can’t think of her name right now. But I met her in person, we hung out. She was interpreting data. Joel, I swear to God from a study that had women that were morbidly obese, that were using nine grams of metformin a day for four months. So I mean, like, again, as you know, the difference between a pill and a poison is always the dosage. Right. So like, you always have to be very careful. And by the way, Peter did not do Montes Pyrrha Tia and Dave Asprey also glommed on to that research and went live and, you know, started attacking, you know, anybody who was promoted a promoter and a promoter of that form. And because of that, and again, so again, you know, people want it in their echo chambers with their cognitive dissonance, they want to jump in and they want to defend their positions. Now, look, at the end of the day, Dave Asprey sells stuff that competes with metformin. And there’s other people that do to my good friend Sean wells talks about die hydro Berberine, you know, shot, right, I love shot and don’t Hydra Berberine is a great option if you can’t get Metformin. But when you look at these things comparatively, and you see the cost of the hydro Berberian, okay, versus Metformin. And what they both do, I mean, I’ll tell you this right now, and Shawn and I talk, eventually, it will come out the dihydrate, Berberine. And Metformin should be used together, along with racemic lipoic acid, because of its profound glucose disposal now again, all of this is relevant to that person’s energy demand and their diet, you know, whether they’re a Keto or a normal diet guy, or a bodybuilder or whatever. But like, these are profound medications, you know, I don’t want to make this about a dihydrate program, but it has a lot of amazing things. It does a lot of amazing things for a lot of amazing people. And, and very truthfully, you know, this, if a person is going to be remained metabolically flexible, and eat an insulin-controlled diet, and do all the other things that you and I talked about, you don’t need either. Okay. But the average person is fat, and dying and sick and eating American food. The SAD diet, right, dude, I just sold this the other day. You might know this, I didn’t. This is insane. percent of men and women in the United States right now over the age of 40 are obese. Obese percent over the age of 40. So think about what kind of disaster this is for the healthcare system. People were talking about, oh, they’re gonna die of the Wii, right? Who gives a shit that isn’t even relevant. They’re gonna die of some sort of metabolic derangement that will cause a heart, you know, incident glaucoma, type three diabetes, a neurodegenerative disorder, I mean, the list is endless, right? So it’s like, at what point do we start taking ownership and say, hey, there are clinical slash supplemental adjuvants that we can start giving to these people that can help them now obviously, yes, Joe, they have to clean up their diet. You know, people will say, you can’t tell fat people that Metformin is a is a, you know, a holy grail agent and it’s going To be a magic pill. And I’m like, Of course you can’t. But there is plenty of research that still shows that giving an obese person Metformin will extend their life between three to five years. Now I’m getting I’m not saying that should be used as a magic potion or pill or, you know, adjuvant but at the end of the day, dude, there’s too many fat people. And if we can give people a way to, you know, in addition to exercise, and again, controlling for insulin, and doing all the things that you recommend, in your practice, another way to help them that I’m all for it, I mean, again, I’m living this lifestyle, and I’m still using Metformin because I believe it just gives me a bunch of other effects that aren’t talked about, but which is, you know, tumor suppression, you know, and again, in improving my microbiome, you know, and there’s even a net tissue buildup effect. I’ve talked about this too, I could probably stop metformin and maintain the effects I’ve had probably for six months without even taking it. But it’s just like, in my mind, I’ve trained myself to use it, you know, and people were like, well, what are you joking, you didn’t ask for this dose. I use one gram am and I use one gram P. And then my wife uses 250, amp meal bed, am and pm. And I personally always tell people like, Look, if this is your process, you want to live longer and stronger store out at the lowest minimum dosage. See how you respond. I mean, look, Metformin, for people who are destroying themselves from a dietary perspective is going to cause gastric distress. It’s going to cause upset because you have God knows what you’re doing in your microbiome. You got all sorts of pathogens, virile agents, dude, I mean, you talked about like phosphate, imagine what that shit is doing. And to ourselves, as it sits there, imagine these poor bastards in the Midwest, who are breathing this shit in every day. It’s just dispersed in the air. Right? So that sits in the rinds of their visceral fat. It’s, in the muscles of the lower abs and supply. Like, I mean, I can’t even imagine what those chemicals are doing to people. So, you know, again, I know I’m long winded on Metformin, obviously, I really get passionate about talking about this. But if you can use something, and you’ve got a lot of work to do, that’s number one. And if you can’t use that form and get died or burn.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there are so many things that I think about with that answer. I don’t know, how to temper, my wanting to shake someone silly when they are so dogmatic about sticking to one study, and not understanding the truth. It’s, you know, there again, back to marketing. There’s a book called true believer, and it’s by Hoffer, and it talks about just how, how we are wired to want that Mary Kay cosmetic award, and then that recognition, and then, I mean, whole nations where we’re, I guess, if you want to say like, like, what is it just, what’s the guy’s name? I’m thinking I’m starting to have a main, you know, with the guy with the flute that got all the rats to follow him. Pied Piper, yeah, the pied piper. I mean, we are engineered that way. But when you talk or when they’re being dogmatic about ignorance, it’s so frustrating. But I did ask you the question before a reason. So you see these pictures of like, I grew up in Canada, and in Toronto, in the 70s, there was this guy named Terry Fox, who wrote he raised every year, there’s a Terry Fox marathon, he had cancer, and he had one leg and he ran across the country. And he died just before doing it. But he’s a national hero.   Jay Campbell: Very familiar with the story of Terry Fox, very familiar.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? So but the point is, when you look at the pictures, J, everyone was skinny, you know, in those times, and you see how it’s not even so much the crappy diet, but all of these growth factors that require you to be persistent, I guess, what’s the word again, that I’m looking for, to be proactive about making sure that you’re turning on the ability of your body to recycle cells, and it’s almost like I know that spermidine is a big sponsor for Dave Asprey. He’s company and I had a lot of interviews with the guy spermidine Is to Metformin as is a daily supplement to be able to turn off your M for long enough, right but where I see the perfect storm is iron filings in our foods that break your iron levels that is a m toward driver growth factor, glyphosate. That’s a growth factor, pesticides, other sprays, chemicals, our growth factors. High corn syrup, fructose is a growth factor. You know, all of these synthetic bees in the foods, the hormones in our food, the antibiotics in our foods, all of these things aren’t glutamates in our foods, all of the things in our food are going to turn on your growth factor and that’s why you see pictured in the 2020s Where no one is skinny 80% of 40-year-olds are obese. So good. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I’m right there.   Jay Campbell: I mean, look, if I’m looking at this big picture, you know, positive perspective, it means guys like you and me, bro are going to eat until this physical body ends, right? Because there are so many people desperate for the awareness that we bring. But I will also say if I look at, you know, take that glass half full, you and I both know this will collapse, the allopathic system, there is no getting around this, they cannot survive this. Insurance cannot subrogate this, these people are brainwashed as you know, that my doctor said, My co-payments $40 That’s all I can. So I mean, all this shit dude is done. So it’s just a matter of you and I being vigilant, you know, being hyper focused continuing to broadcast to people who are receptive to our message, the merits of doing the things that you and I talk about. And as you know, dude, it’s never too late. Now, when I say that, I want to always really offset that if you’re 65.  And you’re obese, you got a lot of work to do.   Jay Campbell: Okay, you can go see Joe and pay him whatever his fee is, or you can consult with me and pay me my ridiculous fee. And we’re going to tell you right to your face, it took you 65 MFN years to look like you do, you ain’t going on a nine week keto program, bro. It ain’t gonna happen. So people have to temper their expectations. The reality that you know, where you are, is a product of your environment and a product of your lifestyle. And if you’re 35 and you’re obese, you got a lot more time to fix it than the 65-year-old and you also have a lot more, you know, cellular life at 35 than you do at 65 Being obese and metabolically deranged so I don’t know man, I just when I saw that data the other day, bro, I had my aha come to Jesus. I spun for about two minutes. And I thought you know what, it doesn’t even matter about the B. It doesn’t matter if the scam scammers come at us, you know with another hit with this because by the way, bro, I mean, let’s just get really tinfoil. This shit was updated two days ago. And when I woke up in the morning, you know, overnight, I turned I didn’t turn it off like an idiot. When I woke up it said, Here’s your face. What was it? It was like, oh, scan your eyes narrow so that when you’re wearing your mask? It will it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: has the new Yeah, the new face for the mask.   Jay Campbell: I was like well, there’s their tell predict programming. Like we both know it’s coming again. I mean, another thing so I froze, it was just like, wow, the bottom line is who gives a shit. The public is metabolically deranged, they’re gonna die. Whether it’s, you know, 1015 years from now 10, five, five, or 10 months from now. But as you know, dude, like without massive proactive change, they’re not going to live. I mean, I mean, that is the tipping point. So you know, they talk about all the population it’s a, it’s thinner, you know, whatever this V is, you know, it’s 100 years, we’re in the fourth turning, and they always want to depopulate the planet. I mean, maybe, but it doesn’t matter, because human beings are doing it to themselves.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Yeah, it’s amazing. And that stat is even worse because you have the toe feasted on the outside and fat on the inside. Oh, absolutely. Even worse. But I do tell this analogy a lot. You look at lungs that have been smoked upon for 50 years and remove that signal for that to be deranged. That’s where we come full circle like a Seinfeld episode and bring a sort of spiritual alchemy together where your body has that incredible power to heal itself, even if you have hard, gnarly lungs for 5060 years. Oh, for sure. And I guess I liked that. I want to be respectful of your time. So I’m going to ask you my closing question. But I like your presentation. It is war. Right? Like you’ve got to take that mentality like burn the boats. I’m not turning back I gotta have a complete profound what is it called divine sort of molecular alteration, and really change my my, my approach to life and health. But with that being said, I guess Segwaying into what I like to ask as a parting question is, knowing what you know, now j with what you knew then, in terms of the truth about health, what would you have told earlier, I always call it the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed j, the information that you would have been advanced quicker or would have had a profound effect on your development. Had you known that information? Is there anything that sort of just jumps out at you?   Jay Campbell: Yeah, it’s a great question. The importance of being lean, as I said in my, in my, my presentation, I mean, you and I both know, bro, like, regardless of your economic level, no matter how much money you have, because, you know, let’s just be honest, as the world shifts, and you know, we go into what I call a separate parallel timeline of people like us and people who just want to be hooked to the machine and go into the metaverse right and have their souls captured, it’s gonna cost money to work with the best people. So at the end of the day, as I look at it as like, what is what can I give it as an advice standpoint, that cost nothing that anyone can use, especially at an earlier age in their life and remain, you know, to add value, and that is literally to remain weight. You and I both know, muscle and you know, this confuses some people, but muscle is the greatest deterrent to the diseases of aging, the more metabolically active your cells are, the less likely they are to be inflamed or to harbor inflammatory signal. So at the end of the day, if you keep your body fat as a woman below, I like to say between 15 and 20, below 20, and you keep your body fat between 10 and 15 as a man, you are going to live longer and stronger doing nothing else. Okay, then anyone else. I mean, it is that simple. Now you take those same body fat percentages, and you control for the things that you teach, you know, hormonal optimization, you know, peptides when you get older, possibly a micro dosage of growth hormone. I mean, when you start doing all these, like advanced, you know, 21st century and then even, you know, even further into the future bio, molecular, biomedical, you know, advanced Golden Age technologies. Now we’re talking guys, we’re in the middle of Fujicolor gene, again, we’re talking about living to 150, we’re talking about living to 200, right, like, it’s, in my mind, it’s possible. As I said, at the end of my presentation, which you have heard, age is the programming of ourselves. If we sit think at 60, we’re getting old and that’s what we’re creating. If we think while I’ve got what 100 years left, the same thing is being created. So our conscious beliefs or awareness or knowing is programming ourselves, for what we have coming in the future, right. And the only thing that matters is you know, bro is right now. And you know, as long as you have that conscious awareness that like you are, you know, the I Am, you know the consciousness aspect of who you are, you can create any physiological health construct, as you said, smoker, 16 year 50-year smoker, I’m done. I’m walking away from it, and I am now going to become a perfect, whole healthy and complete body. And you create that reality. Again, we are not these physical bodies, we are vibrating molecules and standing waves of energy. And so how can energy get AIDS? Or how can energy get COVID? Or how can energy get cancer or any of these things? Yes, the physical body gets those things, but it’s because of our spiritual traumas, you know, our, our metaphysical amputations, but all these things that bother us that we think on it we dwell on, that drops our vibration that lowers our frequency down here, instead of where it should be up here. You know, I’ll close with this man. I like to tell people that your vibration is a choice. And the very truth of the matter is, that happiness is a transient feeling. It’s a transient emotion. Joy is a state of being it is incumbent upon all of us to choose joy in every waking zero space now moment, regardless of what happens to us right now, if you do a lot of inner work you do meditation, contemplation, introspection, you sit in nature, you’re in that stillness, aspect, be still a no God, you will get to an awareness where you can you so let me set this up for people living in these physical bodies. All we have control over is ourselves, and our response to our reaction to what goes on around us. So if you do that inner work, practice every single day and you focus religiously on doing it, whether it’s five minutes, 30 minutes, or whatever, you know, you will get to a place in your life where you can choose to respond out of love versus react out of fear. And 80% of humanity reacts out of fear because again, they’re in that autonomic response, nervous fight or flight. You know, you know, I always say the end, you can have the most amazing meditation in the world in the morning you get in your car to drive to work or whatever it is you do and some maniac cut you off in traffic and literally almost killed you. Now, most people grab the steering wheel and MF the guy and you know if you’re like me and where I was earlier, My life you get into road rage, rock gonna kill you, you know what I mean? But it’s like the truly conscious person and has gotten to that place where they can choose, they will be like, Wow, that person’s having a bad day, I’m gonna wave at them. And energetically, I’m going to send them a resonant frequency of like, Hey, I send you love and light. Right? So that person chose to respond out of love. And as you know, Joel, we’re hardwired our brain is the limbic system is hardwired to respond to survival programming. So this is all conscious reprogramming of yourself that you learn from doing this inner work. And again, I am not some master, I would never tell anybody that I worked for nine years, since I’ve truly had my, what I would call my, you know, come to Jesus slash Dark Night of the Soul moment, to get to this place now, and it doesn’t always work every day, every day is it is a journey, right? And we’re gonna make bad decisions. It’s human, it’s up to you to fatten me to be fallible as to error as a human. So it’s gonna happen, but like, at the end of the day, man, all you have to do is choose to live in joy. Regardless of what happens to you. It’s like, you know, my wife is really good about this, she always says you’re alive, be grateful. Choose joy is your state of being no matter what happens. And I think that’s what we have to learn that again, happiness is transient and is caused by emotional reactions or things that happen in our life that are quote, unquote, defined as good. Whereas joy is a state that we learn to arrive at, in pure gratitude of like, Hey, I’m alive, what could be better?   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s an awesome answer. And the great news is with plasticity and BDNF, you either are working hard to not be doing it or you’re working hard to do it, but it gets easier, no matter which way you turn. So awesome information. Jay. I love it. The new website is not seen it’s Jay campbell.com just acquired today. I’m sure you’ve already heard of him, you can catch his podcast, and Chhim and raise your vibration to the next level. Jay, thank you so much for sharing your information today.   Jay Campbell: Joel, thank you, man. I get it a humbly grateful privilege and honor to be here and I can’t wait for you to come on the Jay Campbell podcast also.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Thank you.   Check out Jay Campbell here The post How to allow spirituality to alchemize the body, mind, heart and soul with Jay Campbell appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health podcast where we teach the truth about your health to exhausted men and women so that they can get their energy back quickly. And today I’m joined by the biohacking babes, Lauren and Renee, who have a biohacking podcast called biohacking babes. And their aim is to create insight into the body’s natural healing ability. Strengthen your intuition and empower you with techniques and modalities to optimize your health and wellness. They’re both health coaches, and I’m really excited to dive in with you guys today. So thanks so much for being here.   Renee Belz: Thanks for having us. Yeah, I’m so excited to connect.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I what I want to do is I want I’m excited to and I want to we talked a little bit earlier about your own health journey. And so I know that I would think it was you, Renee, that may have had adrenal fatigue, and maybe Lauren had mono. So maybe talk about where you were starting off in terms of why you became a health coach. And then we can go through the evolution of that journey and all the tools that you’ve learned along the way so our audience can get amazing value. So maybe we’re in a why don’t you start with your own health challenges that led you into the profession that you do now?   Renee Belz: Yeah, absolutely. I’m happy to share my story. I find a lot of practitioners in the space. You know, a lot of us come to it, because we had our own health challenges. And that was certainly the case for me. So in my early 20s, I hit a wall, you know, whatever you want to call it adrenal fatigue, burnout, I was wired and tired. to a tee. I mean, every list of adrenal fatigue symptoms I had and was a long time coming for me. I mean, in high school, in college, I was sleeping four or five hours a night, I was taking as many credits in school as I could, I was working a full-time job go finally decided to study abroad in Spain, and I got mono when I was overseas. And my life changed. I would say forever from that point. I couldn’t get enough sleep. I was sleeping 14 hours a night, I don’t know was that the mono was fatigue, what was going on? And I went to a lot of traditional doctors at the time, and they were like, Oh, just keep sleeping more, you’ll be fine. You know. And you know, there are only so many hours in the day that you can spend sleeping unless you just quit your job and do nothing. So that led me down the path of trying to figure it out on my own. And Lauren and I are fortunate enough that we grew up with our mom and dad who are very into holistic health, or a dad is a holistic biological dentist. So I went to them and I’m like, Who do I need to talk to you to figure this out? And so I went to acupuncturists, massage therapists, chiropractors, naturopaths, herbalists, I’m like trying to get all the pieces, put it together, and figure out what was going on. And the big game-changer for me was I went to a chiropractor who ran a four-point cortisol salivary test on me. And my cortisol was completely flatlined. And that was the big eye-opening thing. Okay, there’s something going on with my adrenal HPA Axis dysfunction. I went down that rabbit hole, it ended up being so many different things. And this is what I always tell people. Even with adrenal issues or fatigue, it’s not usually one thing that’s going to fix it. As for me, I had mercury toxicity, I had the Epstein Barr Virus that was reactivated in my body over and over again. I wasn’t sleeping, I was stressed out, and I wasn’t eating enough to support my blood sugar. I was overexercising, right. It’s in all the things. And that led me to be a biohacker. Really, I had to put all the pieces together and figure out what would make me feel my best and stay healthy. And I think I’ve connected with a lot of clients on that level, too. I mean, this is super common that people are getting burned out. And yeah, so I like to think that my journey was a good thing. It got me to where I am today at 35. I’m much healthier than I was at 25. So a lot of learning lessons. And here I am.   Dr. Joel Rosen: For you, Lauren. What’s your background story?   Lauren Sambataro: Yeah, similar, I guess the endpoint is burnout. So then I’ll work backward. Similarly, I went to college, and I was a dance major in college was performing so it was always really in touch with the physical body running I grew up dancing, and I continued it into my early adult life. And I started studying pulse checks through the exercise world. And then I was like, Whoa, he teaches other things like it’s not just about fitness, it’s about holistic health and, you know, stress reduction and supplements. So that opened me up to a world of you know, connecting all the pieces and our whole family went through the check educational system. You know, I started performing I went on tours really tough on my body. I became vegetarian because that was the propaganda at the time when I was in New York, and I was a sucker for it. So got sucked into that I was vegetarian for seven years and my body just broke down. Like I was getting sick all the time, I was severely fatigued, and I had no energy. And I was like, how on earth could this not make me feel good? Like I’m avoiding meat meats bad, right? Oh, gosh, so silly to say this out loud. No, but I started eating meat again. And it was like magic is a magical pill for me. And you know, it’s not the only thing it, it funneled me into this discovery of the self-healing body. And it was so great to hear our model when you read it at the beginning because we hear it all the time. But it’s sort of on autopilot. And it’s nice to hear you read it. We do have self-healing abilities. And I think Renee and I both sorts of got into this pattern of not questioning anymore, you know, you get conditioned to take the path of least resistance. You don’t listen to your body, you listen to other people’s opinions and advice. And if you can tap into your own intuition and your body’s innate intelligence, there are a lot of answers. So eating meat again was like the first step back into rediscovering myself. And so it was a rocky path after there after that, I did experience adrenal fatigue because I was teaching dance cardio stuff seven days a week, just so much exercise, and again, not listening to my body. So there’s been some bumps along the road, but each step of the way, it was like, Oh, wait, I can make a different choice. Oh, wait, I can listen to my body. And as Rene said, like we just started to put the pieces together. And it’s a lifelong journey. Like, I’m certainly not done. And I will tell that to my clients. I don’t know everything. I mean, no one knows everything. But it’s interesting and helping clients, I find that I attract people that have similar issues and challenges, which is really awesome because it’s not just from a textbook perspective, that I can share wisdom but from an experience. And also, you know, from a sympathetic, empathetic, compassionate standpoint, I can align and relate to these people. So we can hold hands in a sense because I’m not going to have all the answers for you. And so that’s the mission behind the podcasts, we’re empowering you to figure out what the best way forward is, and what’s the best path? I can’t meet you and say you should eat this, this, and that exercise that way? I don’t know. But I will certainly help you to find the answers.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think that transparency is really key. And three things I think about with both of your journeys as the first one, that first thing that the quote from Ben Lynch that I got when I used to go to all his webinars or his actually his conferences, was that health was a verb or cancer was a verb. And I was like, that’s a great saying because it’s not something you do one time. And it’s definitely a verb, as practitioners, for our own healing and as practitioners for healing our clients. Secondly, I think about David St. Clair and aging and his book longevity. And really aging is defined as the breakdown of communication, right. So if your cells aren’t communicating at the cellular level, then if you’re not getting the message across at the 30,000, view, foot level, it’s all synergistic in that there’s a breakdown of communication and someone’s zigging when you’re zagging, and there’s not a coherence going on. And then the third one is, is that I love the transparency in terms of clients, or patients, or whatever you want to call them. They, they, they don’t want they I think they appreciate that we approach it as we don’t know it all. And that at the end of the day, no one understands the body like the body understands the body. I was once told that we had trouble with having twins, and we had a doctor that was helping us. And I asked Dr. Lawless a doctor, when do you know that we’re going to be out of the woods and you know when we’re going to be okay, and he goes, You know, I can learn about the body. But I don’t know as much about the body as the body knows about the body. And I think being transparent like that and telling your clients look, I don’t know, and I don’t have all the answers, but I’m gonna figure it out for you. And that’s our job. I think that all of that is approached in a healing way that clients are missing in traditional approaches. So thank you for having that. As far as the biohacking now and the podcasts that you do. And the tools of the trade if you’re well, I always like to start off with, I guess, what’s your initial starting point? I’d love to hear both your opinions, Rene in terms of okay, they come and they approach you, and what’s the typical type of person that approaches you? And then ultimately, how do you set the blueprint? How do you explain how do you do I guess, an elevator pitch the workup to explain what’s going on and what your game plan is? I think that’s helpful for people to hear from the beginning?   Renee Belz: Yeah. Um, I mean, as far as the type of client I get, it depends, I would say where they’re coming from. And my big thing is, I always want to meet the client, where they’re at. And quite often, you know, they’ll come to me and say, um, I want to lose weight. That’s my number one goal. But when we really open up the can of worms, it’s like, oh, but actually, they’re tired. They have digestive issues, they have brain fog, right. So and I know the three of us are really big on getting to the root cause. So my thing is, what will make them feel better quickly enough that they can start making changes, right? Because we know when we’re exhausted, and we’re burned out, we don’t feel like going to the grocery store and cooking and going into the gym and doing all these things. So what can we start with to get them feeling better quickly, but then match that with getting to the root cause? So running labs, I’m a big fan of doing the touch panel for hormones gi map, looking at what’s going on in the gut, maybe some blood chemistry, and then putting the puzzle pieces together for them. And then also bringing in the biohacking piece. I’m a really big fan of using something like the aura ring or the bio strap if they’re willing to invest in that because I think that empowers them to see what’s going on in their body every single day. Right, the labs that are only once every three months, six months, something like that. But something that’s looking at their heart rate variability, their body temperature, their resting heart rate, respiratory rate, sleep all these things every single day, empowers them to learn faster about what their body needs. I think when you wake up and you see your morning data, say your readiness score or your recovery score on one of these, that empowers that person to say, Okay, what did I do yesterday, that was different, that made me sleep better, sleep worse, or recover less, recover more. So kind of putting those pieces together, right, getting them to feel better, hopefully quick, looking at the labs and the root cause, and then bringing in a little bit of the biohacking with that data quantification. And coaching them with that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. And for and for you, Lauren.   Lauren Sambataro: Yeah, I would say definitely like one big needle mover, you want to just give them something that they can hold on to and make them feel better immediately. And for me that sunshine, and from there just catapults into so many other things like if you can just get outside and get morning sunshine, you’re probably going to be motivated to breathe a little deeper, you’re probably going to be motivated to move a little bit, it’s, I dare you to stand on the sunshine and not feel an elevation in your mood. So we just start building these lifestyle practices while we’re doing you know, all the hard work. But we can run all the blood chemistry, organic acids, the touch panels, but like if you’re not doing the basics, and it sounds really basic, but really, that can move the needle just getting outside. And you take one habit, and hopefully, we can stack and we’re a huge fan of just as many free bio-hacks as technology bio hacks, I mean, we have plenty of high-dollar high-ticket items. But if you’re not getting essential if you’re on grounding, if you’re not moving your body, you know, the other stuff isn’t going to really move the needle. And I think for burnout and something like adrenal fatigue, the personality that goes down that pathway is someone that’s doing too much and not being enough. So like how much downtime Do you have? How much reflection Do you have? How much space do you have for nothing? And standing in the sunshine, even though it’s a checklist item, I think really brings you into that space of being. So it’s really, you know, the motivation to get into the mindset to allow all the other stuff to settle to set into place. Because we can just throw supplements, are you but you know right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: No. It is I like the answers in terms of which we’re going towards and in the intuitive and knowing your body and knowing thyself, but at the same time having objective markers because people want to see black and white objective markers because I always find that how would you know if you were better? If you were better? What’s your benchmark? What’s your lighthouse, that you’re deciding you’re better and objectively, we want to have numbers that we can show that and that’s what’s great about data-driven health and labs and so forth. But at the same time, I think it’s important to benchmark your subjective goals with things that you could be doing now, or things that you’ve forgotten about that you haven’t even thought about that are your ultimate goals and what you want to achieve. So I think you have to balance the two. And it’s not an easy thing, one more comment I wanted to make is I remember watching an interview of one of the initial aura producers or he made the ring, and he was being interviewed on his show. And he was talking about some of his AHA said he was having and it was funny. I laughed out loud when he said well, I realized that my heart rate variability and my readiness score went up when I was on vacation, and I was like Yeah, no shit like you know when you’re on the Education, you know, at the end of the day, the common sense is not so common, right? I mean, we forget to remember about, if you’re working 10 hours a day, or you’re just constantly on your phone, and you’re getting exposed to electronics, and you’re eating in your car, and you’re, you’re just not putting your feet on the ground. I mean, common sense is not so common. So with that being said, I guess it would shift over into when you do start working with, your clientele, and they’re dealing with the massive amounts of problems. And I think we’d all agree that the people we see are sicker and sicker and sicker. Right? There are so many things going on, you don’t get the easy cases anymore, right? There’s no, I mean, unless, and especially the deeper to your point, one, the deeper you go with your health. And the difference AHA is that you get the universe has a way of telling you, that you don’t know it all. And we’re gonna send you all these difficult people your way to figure it out. So I think that it’s one of those things where you start attracting really complicated cases, combined with the fact that there are so much more complicated cases than there’s ever been, right. So I guess, how would you? What are you seeing that, that they’re not being told that that’s commonly right in front of their very eyes, that the doctors are missing? From a traditional point of view? I know, it’s kind of a tough question. But are you seeing any like, how do they miss this? Like, why don’t they see this they may not be testing, it may not be on their radar, it may have been tested, but it wasn’t interpreted correctly, correctly. But are you seeing any of those things or with people that are coming to you with more complicated presentations that you can identify right away? And you see these things that need to be addressed that you’re shocked that no one’s told them about?   Renee Belz: Oh, yeah, there’s a tricky question. I think the jump in, if you Yeah, I’ll say, I’ll say one thing, and I’ll let you jump in. I think just personal care products, and like cleaning products and toxic in your toxic environment, indoor air pollution, I think is a huge one that most traditional doctors aren’t talking about. Like, come on, we see a lot of clients that are like, I’m eating the perfect diet, and I’m exercising and I’m sleeping, and I still feel like crap kind of thing. It’s always a question, is it really a healthy diet? Right, we have to dive deeper into that. But I think something as basic as just too many toxins in their environment, going into their body every day, all day. I see that being a huge factor, I mean, for fatigue for, you know, not being able to lose weight affecting their hormones, even EMF pollution, right, traditional doctors are definitely not talking about EMFs and radiation being a problem. And the thing about most of those is, once you do clean them up, you’re usually done with that, right? You’re not having to like replace those things on a daily basis and clean your environment all the time. Once you get all the new clean products, you’re done. So I think that is one big missing piece. I’ll leave it at that. Lauren, if you want to jump in with something.   Lauren Sambataro: Yeah, no, there are huge environmental inputs, but I was just going to give a specific example something like thyroid, which is traditionally not really run by your PCP, maybe a little on your TSH, maybe or free T four, but like, we’re not seeing the big picture there. And so a common very common thing that I see with my clients is oh, my doctor tested that and everything is fine. It’s like, well, yeah, okay, maybe your TSH is fine for a while and traditional range. But like, what about the big picture? I mean, there are so many nuances there. And I’m not faulting them like traditional medicine is brilliant. And there’s a reason why blood chemistry has been run. And there’s a reason we have medications. But what’s upsetting is that there’s a lack of curiosity and zooming out to see the bigger perspective. And that’s just a small thing. The plastics in our environment are out of control. And so you see something like estrogen dominance, and your doctors not talking to you about the plastics that you’re storing your food in, like your Tupperware in your fridge, like, that’s pretty preposterous, and I would say, exercise is a big one on that list. We just went to a Biohacking Conference. And I don’t mean to rag on it. But like exercise was a huge missing piece from that conference. There were a lot of supplements. There were a lot of devices, not really any exercise like that’s the one free bio-hack for the vessel that you carry around day and night, 24 hours a day that stores information and trauma and is like a major communicator and we’re not talking about moving. It’s just a simple one. And you know, maybe it doesn’t belong in the doctor’s office. That’s why we have health coaches to bridge the gap. And there are functional medicine doctors doing amazing things like that, but there are so many boxes we have to check so many.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. As you say that I think about the fact that with the food and the environment we live in I do a lot of genetic tests. interpretations. And it used to be the perfect storm of the people that shouldn’t have all these crazy environmental epigenetic things, combined with their very weak linked, express expressed genotype that creates massive amounts of challenges. But now I’m seeing more people that don’t have massive amounts of genetic susceptibilities. It’s just that environment is so epigenetically triggering to express these things. And that comes with the processing of foods and the glutamates and the glyphosate and so many things that are in there, that is a huge problem in terms of feeding the gut and supporting the liver, that 88% of our population is metabolically unhealthy. It’s just, it’s crazy. But to your point in terms of getting back in touch with the earth, and getting back in touch with the frequencies, and even if people think it’s woo-woo, it’s getting back to what man-made it in the lab versus what nature made it in on the earth. That’s what’s healing for our body. So I guess the next question would be, do you find that you are met with a lot of resistance, or by the time they see you they’re so done with not being heard or trivialized, or just telling you that they’re not it’s normal and nothing’s wrong? Do you find that they’re really open to the information? Or the that there’s a mixed bag in terms of they don’t want to hear it? Or? I mean, what are you finding with that?   Lauren Sambataro: It’s certainly a mixed bag. And I think it depends on what we’re talking about. I personally see the most resistance when we’re talking about a plant-based vegetarian vegan diet versus more of a carnivore or paleo diet. When that topic comes up, people really fall on one side of the spectrum or another. So for the clients that are more plant-based, I find that tends to bring up the most like defense in the conversation, but as far as like sunshine, I’ve never had someone say, Oh, I’m not going to get morning sunshine. And if they are resistant, I say just try it once. I’ve never had someone come back to me say that didn’t feel good. Do you know what I mean? So I guess it depends, like how big of a lifestyle shift? Is it? Like everyone has time for five minutes of sunshine, a little bit of movement in the morning, if we’re talking about a complete shift in diet and nutrition, might be a little bit harder, just depends where they fall in the spectrum.   Renee Belz: Yeah. Yeah, I would say so actually, at the beginning of my nutrition career, I worked at our parent’s Holistic Dental Practice, it was a great learning experience because that’s where I saw some of the sickest patients I’ve ever had seen. Because our dad is a biological dentist. And that’s such a rare thing in the United States, especially what he does, most of the patients that will come in there, they were that person that had seen 1520 practitioners, they had flown around the country, no one could figure out why they were sick, they were coming there to figure out is the dental component, the missing piece, and quite often it was, but anyway, I would be there to support their nutrition. And I would say for those people, they were open to everything and anything because they were like I have tried it all I have been to every practitioner under the sun. Tell me I’ll do a castor oil pack and a coffee enema and drink or whatever, at the same time. Just tell me what to do. And most of those people were they were so sick, they weren’t even working anymore. So their full-time job was to get better. So, unfortunately, and fortunately, they had all the time in the world to focus on their health. But it which is sad to see I don’t want anyone to ever get to that point where that is a full-time job. Right? Our health should be there to support us to thrive in our daily life. But not to focus on it. 24/7 That’s very debilitating.   Lauren Sambataro: Yeah, I said the other side of the spectrum, just to chime in real quick is like the average mother. So the working mother that has kids, maybe the pain point isn’t high enough yet. And she thinks she wants a, b and c. But the pain threshold hasn’t gotten high enough for her to really make changes because you know, she’s taking care of her family, and she has to work. There are other variables in there that very frequently put her at the top of the list. So how do we meet in the middle there from the super sick patient to you know, not so sick patient yet, but we’re really trying to prevent and that’s where like the free bio hacks come in. Just start, just start slowly adding them in and see how it starts to move the needle. Because you’re gonna see shifts and biomarkers. And you’re also just going to see shifts in physiological symptoms. How do you feel about your perception of stress, which we know is actually more important than actual stress? Because stress there are so many ways to define that. And what is your stress bucket, but if you’re just perceiving your stresses less than like we’ve already moved forward.   Dr. Joel Rosen: There are some really good points. I feel that that’s a great point, Lauren in terms of, they have to have the pain of not doing anything worse than pain than of doing something before they’re really on board. And sometimes that takes a lot of getting to the bottom of the bucket before they do that. And we see a lot of those like were the last doctor to the party and I find they’re met with their arms crossed, like, what are you going to tell me that I haven’t already done before. And they haven’t done a lot of things, right, because there are so many things that they haven’t done. I just remember when I think you might remember this. I told it at the Biohacking Conference, I have my whole family, our real doctors, like surgeons, and doctors and anesthesiologists, and I’m like the holistic chiropractor. And I remember I mean, I have an exercise physiology degree of a psychology degree than a doctor of chiropractic. And I remember I was working part-time, just when I was graduating chiropractic, and explaining to as a personal trainer, and I was explaining to the people nutrition. And while you’re really knowledgeable, like well, like oh, yeah, I’m, I’m studying chiropractic. And it was like, like, oh, like, sorry to hear that, you know, like, Well, what do you mean, like I didn’t realize, like, you know, I think that there’s a certain amount of I don’t say brainwashing, but there’s a certain amount of just accepting the status quo. And I think we’re seeing a shift. And I don’t remember who coined the term. But science advances with like, each generation because the old generation dies, and then the new generation is open to new changes. So I think we’re on that paradigm shift. And I think people listening to this are already there. But at the same time, there are a lot of people that whether it’s they’re following it, because that’s what their insurance pays for, or they just don’t know otherwise, or unfortunately, the topic of it’s not covered. And it’s a big expense to look at as a big expense instead of a big investment that you should have a 10 to 100-fold return on. So with that being said, I do want to transition into the data-driven information that you guys have learned because I have both the ring and the strap. And I’ve had a lot of aha hours as well myself. And there was a time when I was with my exhausted burnt-out brain fog, no energy people, I was making them do so many things. And it was just overwhelming to do it punching in there. My Fitness Pal or Chronometer plus on top of that, you know, logging this and that it just became too much. So I guess we would transition into the data tracking. I like that term better than biohacking. Like data tracking and seeing the trends and understanding what really makes a difference. I guess with you, Rene, what are some of the things that you’re seeing? Aren’t the obvious that aren’t if you go on vacation? Or what are the things that you’re seeing that make the biggest impact on having a turnaround and health when you think you’ve done everything?   Renee Belz: Well, I think as far as data tracking for someone that’s new to it, like heart rate variability, I think is a great place to start. I think you can learn so much from that one measurement. As far as Yeah, what does vacation improve it? You know, the big ones are alcohol definitely destroys it for me, which for most people, it does too much caffeine, too many nootropics all kinds of stress. So mental, emotional, physical, and physiological, all of these stressors definitely impact HRV. And I think being able to see that day in and day out, you can really learn the nuances for yourself. And it is different for everyone. Like I was talking about my husband with blue light at night, he can be honest phone till 10 no blue light blocking glasses on and get in bed and fall right asleep. For me, if I have any blue light for two hours before bed, my deep sleep in my REM sleep is terrible. So I think yeah, blue light, I think is a big one for some people. Alcohol overexercising. I mean, for me, I like to do high-intensity interval training. I like to lift heavy, which is great. It’s a great hormetic stressor. I’m not going to argue that. But I know that the next day my HRV is going to be down. But that’s okay. And I think another piece of the data quantification is being okay with the data. Don’t let it upset you. Right, learn. We talked about this a lot. If it is upsetting you or stressing you out. Maybe you do need to take a step back from it. And you need to figure out if it’s supporting you or hurting you. Either way, trying to think what else Lauren, what would you say to any other big movers?   Lauren Sambataro: Well, my biggest takeaway, I think from quantification is I think the recovery piece recovering from exercise and realizing that if you do push, or don’t listen to your data, your score As you’re going to incrementally decrease or get worse, you know, not everything decreases as heart rate can go up, HRV can go down. Whereas before I started tracking, I thought, you know, it’s willpower, it’s just mental determination, I can push through this if I had been tracking exercise and recovery, 10 years ago, when I was working out like a crazy person, it would be really sad to see, you see that it’s not just willpower, that there are all these physiological systems that really working hard to make sure that you can get rest and recovery and show up stronger. So my biggest takeaway is like, I don’t have to hit it hard every day of the week. In fact, I feel better, I feel more resilient, my HRV is stronger, and my overall readiness is way better when I do less. And as Renee said, of course, that’s different for everybody. But I also find, you know, there’s this roller coaster effect, if you do too much exercise, say I got like a 70 readiness score, which is not the worst thing on order, but it generally means to like to slow down a little bit. If I push past that, for the next four days, it’s gonna go down. And I see that also in blood sugar, like with CGM, because they do a lot of blood sugar coaching when you have that extreme excursion, which is a stress to your body. And we know that over time if you keep adding that stress, your agency is gonna go up, you click oscillate glucose in your bloodstream, it’s really hard to recover from that. So we want to avoid those extremely stressful events. And so you start to see, you know, it’s not like, oh, I ate that ice cream last night. I’ll just start over tomorrow. Well, the sad news is that that actually did provide a stressor. So how are we going to take that, that experience that environment, and make it better? Like how do we actually recover? It’s not just starting over tomorrow, we have to actually damp and nourish that environment. And you know, that’s the rabbit hole of things. But I think learning that it’s not just about pushing through and are just like starting clean, there’s not necessarily like a start clean with your body the next day.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, those are those are really good points, though, in terms of starting off with getting calibrated, I like that word calibrated, or synchronized to the objective data that you may not think it’s that way, it’s a paradigm shift, or it’s a, you know, tipping over a sacred cow. And that’s one of the things that drives me crazy in terms of I heard you say this in an interview, Lauren, where you thought you had to have small meals more frequently because you have cortisol issues. And that’s what they told you. And as a trainer, I’m a little bit older than you guys. But as a trainer, back in those early days, it’s like small meals more frequently, right? That’s what you did, I have an exercise physiology degree only to find out when you actually test it, you’re not hypoglycemic, and you’re actually hyperglycaemic. And on top of that, the EMF that you’re exposed to every day, and everything else drives that up even further. So I think being open to the paradigm shifts, that it’s not what you were told, or that’s what that person said, or that’s what the, it’s in the book, I think you got to know yourself, you got to test those things. I think two of them for me was one of them was doing work at night, I mean, I can put the blue blocker lights on or not, and still fall asleep. But I would be doing emails and work really later into the evening. And my glucose would be at like 131 40. And I hadn’t eaten since six or five o’clock. It’s like, it just does not do well with me. The other one was a bit of a surprise, it was an exercise that I do with my clients where we teach them different brain exercises. So they have to do recall and follow things. It’s it trains, different parts of the brain and different parts of the lobes of the brain. And I thought if I wake up tomorrow, and my scores are different, I know it was because of this. And I think my readiness was like at 96. It was like something I hadn’t, it was an all-time high of like, five, five years or four years of doing it. So it was kind of cool in that way. So it’s I think you got to test it, you got to know it. And then that way you can make objective changes. So as far as instinctually or perceptually, you were talking a little bit about Lauren, and maybe we can start to go into that area. So what does that mean in terms of we’re getting more into understanding, knowing ourselves and the body and when to push and when not to push? Let’s kind of start that and what is what does that mean and how can we harness that to get better results?   Renee Belz: I think a good place to kick this off is maybe talking a little bit more specifically about women. I think Lauren is really an expert on this the female or masculine and feminine side of things. But I think sometimes women do shut out that intuition even though we have it within and a great example of this. We hear this all the time from clients women couple of days before their cycle starts right One of the blades, they were like, I’m craving chocolate, I’m craving carbs, I want potato chips and stuff. And like, that’s your body telling you that you need maybe some more magnesium or more carbs, right? So how can we listen to our body and know our cycle and just lean into that? And so I think something like the aura ring is a great way to start tracking that, right, because it’s looking at your body temperature throughout the month. If you don’t have a device, just get a thermometer, put it by your bed in the morning, and start taking your morning temperature. I think for women, you need to know every day what part of your cycle you’re in, you can become Superwoman if you can lean into this. So you know the first couple of days of your cycle, a great time to do more restorative things, we do better with fasting, maybe some more keto, higher fat, leading up to ovulation, a great time to put on muscle, go to the gym, lift heavy stuff, incorporate some more carbs, I mean, good, healthy carbs, and still follow your personal glucose control, whatever you need to do. And then the same thing at the end of the cycle when we can incorporate more carbs, listen to your body and combine that with the data telling you what part of your cycle you’re in. And I think magic can really happen there. So for women, I think we have this power of intuitive practice. Maybe maybe it’s a little bit easier, right? versus men, you’re on a different clock, right? You have your 24-hour clock, but you don’t get the 28-day to 32-day cycle that we do.   Lauren Sambataro: yeah, and I think as far as perception leaning into that takes away a lot of the shame from the conditioning that we’ve gotten from culture and society about what we’re supposed to eat what we’re supposed to do for exercise, you know, how much we’re supposed to accomplish, how productive we’re supposed to be. If we can lean into these, this monthly cycle, those carb cravings rather than saying, I’m bad, because I’m craving that or I’m bad because I chose to eat that. It’s like, well, no, I’m nourishing my system. We know progesterone needs carbohydrates. So why is that bad? But we have been conditioned never to mess up, that everything is black and white, right or wrong. And it’s not like the body doesn’t work like that we’re dynamic. We’re constantly in flow, our hormones are constantly changing, and we’re not the same body we were a minute ago. So I think that’s where the data quantification and building an intuitive practice really shines because we take away the shame from that conditioning, and then it’s just about you and yourself. It’s about what your body needs. And I feel like that shame that guilt that rides on top keeps us away from our intuition. So it is a practice, it’s a monthly practice of saying, Okay, I’m going to expect this, you know, the cleaner I am and have less and less of these cravings for potato chips, maybe just more cravings for sweet potatoes or whatever it is that it does get easier, the cleaner that you eat, but also the more that you practice it, the more those intuitive signals are going to speak up. They’re gonna voice themselves. But in our society, we have turned off intuition because it’s like when we’re kids, we learned that we don’t fit into society unless we’re following rules and doing as we are told and fitting into this box. We’re not meant to be put into boxes. So, unfortunately, that communication was dampened. So we’re like dusting it off and trying to find it again. Is there? It’s definitely there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, like the approach and the paradigm shift of helping someone understand the rules of engagement for honing in on their intuition. Right as health coaches and looking at the data and seeing the numbers and then almost there was a movie I loved it was called Mumford. I don’t know if you ever saw the movie, Mumford exhibits. You know, it was about this guy who was a psychologist, but he really wasn’t a psychologist, he was, he was an impulse and imposter. But the reason why he was so loved as being a psychologist was he just would listen to them talk. And he wouldn’t even really say much except one question and then go ahead and talk. And I think that’s kind of how we are as coaches is letting people hear themselves but asking the right questions, so that they can come up with the intuition of Oh, like, do you mean, when I am hungry, and I feel like awful and I want to put my finger down my throat when I’m eating way too much that that’s actually like in tune with my body. And I should embrace that. Yeah. And when you look at these numbers here that supports that. So I love that area where I guess the next question would be where do you see that evolving to in terms of really changing up the way we practice? Do you feel that we don’t necessarily need as much testing per se objectively and get away from some of the more expensive testing and do a basic customized yet fundamental that everyone could do it with some nuances like where do you see it going in what direction?   Renee Belz: I think that’s a great question. I mean, I think I mean, technology, it’s just rapidly growing. I mean, it’s almost terrifying how fast things are growing. But I can see in the next couple of years, everyone having some device, I mean, even like the Apple Watch is now incorporating HRV. I think they also are doing respiratory rate, and blood oxygen. I mean, it’s happening really fast. I think in the next couple of years, everyone will have a device that will allow them to at least measure, you know, maybe more of the foundational stuff like, Wouldn’t it be great if someone came to us, and they were like, Okay, I already have these foundational things in check, but I’m missing something else. And then that’s where we save maybe the fancy fun lab work for? I don’t know, because, at the same time, I think our environments getting more toxic.   Lauren Sambataro: So yeah, I think it was always gonna be a particular approach, depending on the scenario, I mean, inflammation and oxidative stress are not going away. They’re, they’re growing exponentially. So it would be hard to say that we’re never going to need it like when we’re gonna get organic acids, or stool testing, or whatever. I mean, blood chemistry, I think will always be a standard. As far as like, totally getting away from testing. I, I can’t imagine that. But I think with data quantification, I certainly want to get off of my devices at some point. At some point, I’m going to hopefully learn and, and incorporate all of these things. So they are habitual and intuitive. So I’m not relying on my watch to tell me how my day is gonna go. And we’ve talked about that on our podcasts like, you should take some breaks from your data. Because what if you’re just checking your data every morning without checking in with yourself? What are you doing, you’re actually dampening your intuition, you’re getting away from the whole point of it, you want to be able to feel our recovery or resilience. So I think that will go on more like a short-term timeline. But like, unless we fix our environment, I don’t know that we can ever get away from lab testing.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I agree with both of you, it’s the best of the best and the worst of the worst. Now, it’s the were the best time for advancing new ways of thinking about metabolic health. But yet we also have this albatross of an environment and everything that’s going on with us that just as keeping our permanent button on, where I think might we can go is where third parties are more motivated for profit by, by incentivizing their clients, or their hope policyholders to be healthier. And it’s just, it’s like one of those ships moving in the ocean, it just takes forever to do because pharma and the big money that’s in there, and then the educational systems. And then on top of that, the food bill, and governmental policy and lobbyists, I mean, that’s really what we’re fighting. But I think if you can get doctors aligned with what works, what works for their clients, and doesn’t cost them an arm and a leg to do it, they can actually free bio-hack it. And then insurance companies give back the money to the clients that they don’t have to spend $80,000 on to do some kind of radical surgery. It just, to me, it seems like why are we not doing that? But anyway, that’s just an aside as far as, as far as anything that you guys have learned? Because I always like to ask like, the podcast name is the truth about your health. And I do have that feeling that a lot of things as a segue from what we just talked about, a lot of things are being hidden from us, for the profit and the industry. Well, I guess it’s kind of a tough question. But what do you wish? Maybe you knew then that you know, now that wasn’t necessarily true about health? I guess, maybe Lauren, you start that one?   Lauren Sambataro: Well, my brain can’t get away from what you said a few minutes ago, I’m thinking about the farm bill of the 19. Seven days, I’m like, if we could just get rid of that. We will be in a much better state like our government has subsidized crops that are cheap, toxic, and making our world sicker. Like what if we subsidize healthy foods, fruits, and vegetables, just start there. And then it’s like we don’t have to worry about and we’ll always have to worry about health care. But you know, the insurance issue becomes a little bit easier health coaching becomes a little easier. We bridge the gap even more with traditional medicine, and functional health coaching. I guess what do I wish that I knew, I wish, I that I knew that it was just about my body. I wish that I knew that my body had the answers. And, you know, our dad taught us that at a very young age. I had that. We learned that concept, but it was not fully ingrained enough that you know, given the right environment I was not vulnerable. When I went to New York, I was very impressionable based on thoughts and opinions that people had there, which is why I became vegetarian. I wish that that was so ingrained in my body that no matter what I knew that I had the answers and that the answer was not out there. And for so long, I was seeking searching looking for the magic pill. It’s like, Man if I had a mentor or a teacher that taught me that my intuition was stronger than anything else, you know, you can’t regret the path. But that’s what I hope to educate others on that they have all the answers.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you need a Yoga.   Renee Belz: Yeah. When do you need them?   Dr. Joel Rosen: And what about you, overnight?   Renee Belz: Yeah. I think if I can give two answers, I would say, a more simple answer, if I could tell my younger self is how important sleep is. And I think that narrative is now changing. But when we were in high school, and college, it was doing whatever you got to do to get straight A’s and be in musical theater and dance company and work on the weekends and do everything. And I think a lot of that was I put that pressure on myself, it wasn’t my parents that were doing that. You know, the straight A’s in college doesn’t really matter anymore. So I wish I could tell my younger self, I should have prioritized sleep or would have been in a much better, much better health than in my 20s. If I had listened to that. And in a more complicated area, I would say, iron and copper. You are my guru on this topic. Now. I struggled with anemia for so long. And I actually got to the point where I almost was about to do an iron infusion. And someone said, Try organ meats for six months, just wait on the infusion. And I did and everything kind of balanced out and I felt better. And maybe that was because of the natural copper. I’m definitely gonna pick your brain. More on that when you come on to our podcast because I think that is so fascinating. But I think there is so much misconception about iron. Even in the functional medicine world, this was a functional medicine doctor that was recommending an iron infusion. So it’s not just traditional versus functional. I think there’s a huge missing piece around the iron deficiency. So thank you for the work you’re doing in that realm. And I can’t wait to keep learning more from you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I mean, it’s, you know, Morley Robbins wrote that book, and I was reading, I was doing so many rabbit holes, rabbit holes, and rabbit holes. And I’m like, What’s this iron thing, this copper thing? And then to read all the research, it’s just mind-blowing in terms of how are we not taught this? And why are we not taught it? Which is even scarier. So. But yeah, I mean, that’s a lot of awesome information, the podcast called biohacking babes. And how often just give us a little intro on that, because I’m sure more people know about it, that dome. But for those that don’t tell us a little bit about what you guys talk about, and, what the listener would gain when they listen to your podcast.   Renee Belz: Yeah. Awesome, Ben. Yeah. So we released one podcast a week, every Monday, we rotate different guests, and we try to bring on different guests in the biohacking realm. And just to educate people. I mean, we talk about everything from breath, work to the hormone, hormone balance, sleep optimization, cleaning up your environment, eating organic, I mean, we’ve really tried and covered the bases there. And then every once in a while Lauren, and I’ll just do an episode just the two of us and share kind of what’s going on in the biohacking world and what we think is important at the moment, but we do our best to just bring as much education and information to the mass population as we can.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome, man, I know, Lauren, you’re getting more into the entire intuitive work, maybe what tell us a little bit about how that’s we’ve done as well. Are there other things that you talk about that we didn’t talk about today on the show? Or with your own practice?   Lauren Sambataro: I would say that’s just sort of like a throughline in the podcasts. But yeah, definitely a big part of health coaching. And that’s just because I don’t, you know, I don’t have the answers for everyone. And I can run lab tests and do an extensive health history. But it’s Renee and I really feel strongly about empowering you to dig a little bit deeper. And it takes some work, but we’re there to kind of push you and hold your hand a little bit and then encourage you to dig deeper because it’s their answers down there. So that’s a big part. I think just to add to some of like our topics, we do a lot of exercises and we’re starting to talk more about plant medicine and what can offer us as far as mental health personal growth, and spiritual development, which is just a fascinating topic to us at this time.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That is that’s a rabbit hole. I haven’t gone down yet but maybe at some point thank you ladies for so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and your time I really appreciate and I look forward to talking with you guys later and then I always keep it open if it’s okay if I did a good enough job for you guys to come back and share with me the new version of what you learned from the last time we talked so we’ll keep that invitation open but thank you so much and I wish you guys feature success and everything you do.   Lauren Sambataro: Thank you so much. This is awesome.   Renee Belz: Can’t wait to have you on Thank you.   Check Out The Biohacking Babes Podcast here  The post How To Upgrade Your Life With The Biohacker Babes appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Three. All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults, the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And today, I’m really excited to be joined with Austin broad Hawkins, who is the senior partner at the indoor organic gardens of Poughkeepsie. We’re in for a special treat today, because we’re going to be talking about what I think is really a miracle nutrient. And, and Brian is going to be giving us the details, the ins, and outs of what it is and why it’s so important. But ultimately, we’re going to be talking about sulforaphane. And how to nerf two is really a regulatory enzyme for so many inflammatory processes in the body for people that are exhausted and burnt out. This is one on one for them. So, Brad, thank you so much for being here today. I really appreciate it.   Austin Hodgkins: Thanks for having me. It’s pleasure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so you know, I got introduced to you a while ago, where your partner Carol, she had emailed me because I did a video on sulforaphane. And it just kind of lingered in my inbox for a while until I kept going over my genetic susceptibility reports with my clients. And the worst of the worst, the hardest hit from environmental factors, whether it be mold, chemicals, heavy metals, or just stressors in the environment, were the ones that had these nerf to genetic polymorphisms, where they’re not really signaling they nerf two pathways effectively. And I had to dig back deep into the emails to find that and I’m really excited to join forces with you guys. But I thought, hey, let’s get an interview with you. So that we can educate people as to exactly what this is and why it’s so powerful. So why don’t you broad give us a little bit of detail of your journey and how you started and pioneered the organic garden of Poughkeepsie and, and give us your background story.   Austin Hodgkins: Okay, glad to So somewhere around 2014. And we’re located in Center City, Poughkeepsie, New York, which is a great spot, certainly. But it’s a center city of an old town and a lot of unemployed people. A lot of the social services emanate from Santa city, Poughkeepsie, we’re also the county seat. And so we were looking for something to do with the building that I owned herein, in Center City. And so we decided, hey, we heard a lot about indoor growing and gardening and all those things. And so we pursued that. In the beginning, it was a learning experience as oftentimes when you do things you know nothing about, and we knew nothing about this. And so we started with, with tomatoes and cucumbers, and we were gonna do mushrooms and things like that. And we ended up with microgreens, to make the long story short, and so we saw microgreens, to local restaurants and stores, and so on and so forth. And that’s kind of cool. And we can scale it to a certain level. But that’s not where the action is. So then I came upon equities, growth, that Let food be thy medicine. It’s not the first time I’d heard it, parquetry is better known for the term, do no harm or whatever, the father of medicine. And so the more you looked into, Let food be thy medicine, we found that vegetables, plants basically were the key to the whole thing. And so that’s why the dinosaurs lived to age 300 165 million years dinosaurs roamed the earth the last 160 5 million years ago, but all eight were plants and a few but everything they ate was fresh. So we decided we’d go with the food is medicine. And the problem was that in order to stabilize the microgreen sprouts, which is where the highest density of micronutrients on Poly, polyphenols, and whatnot, exist, in order to do that, we would have to either freeze them or dry them. Freezing is a problem because the first step and freezing blast freezing are you have to blanch it and so you kill all the enzymes, anything over 120 Kills the enzymes. And the second thing is if you’re going to dry it, dehydrate it, then typically you gotta heat it too much too. So you kill that so the first order of business was to see if we can figure out a way to deliver a powder that was shelf-stable. And the real test we have we’re not a lab, et cetera, is that if you’ve got a powder, and it doesn’t, it doesn’t look like a vegetable, it’s not green, and it doesn’t smell like a vegetable, there’s probably dead. So we realized that in order to make this stuff work, and build its efficacy as it were, we had to figure out how to dry it and not kill them, the living components. And that’s what we accidentally ran across is a way to do that. And so once we figured out how to dehydrate this, and there are two headwinds, when you dehydrate, or when you stabilize, one is temperature. That’s why mom said, you know, don’t overcook your instance, not only don’t overcook them, you really should kick them and eat them right there. That’s the way the dinosaurs ate their plants because they harvested them with their teeth. So the ideal way to eat vegetables, if you really want cabbage and broccoli to help you, you should be eating them raw. And the second thing after it took the heat you’re killing the enzymes at 120, the nutrients at 180. But the second thing is the longer time it takes for you to consume them, then the more diminished there are than these nutrients are in the plant, because they’re oxidizing, they’re rotting. So there was a piece of data that I ran across. And every time I looked at something like this, it kind of blew me up. Because I’m not I’m just not an expert in nutrients or in expert hell, I didn’t know how many nutrients that were. And so I found, someone sent me an article that said spinach four days after you harvest spinach, Popeye would roll over in his grave and be heard this four days after you harvest spinach, there’s zero vitamin C in it, it goes to zero. So if you’re buying spinach here in New York that’s grown in your great state of Florida, it’s not likely that it’s within four days old, being harvested, even though it looks pretty good in the middle of even in the middle of the winter, there’s no vitamin D, vitamin C is zero. So, that made it even more compelling for us to find a way to stabilize the nutrients. And it all emanated from there. And again, indoor gardening is labor-intensive, very labor intensive, we can’t get tractors in here or mechanical equipment. So we need people in a not a lot of people to want to work with their hands and a garden, etc. So we don’t hire a lot of college graduates. However, we do have a large population of at-risk people in Center City. And so that’s where we, that’s where we, we target to, to become our employees. And it just worked out beautifully. People will say, Hey, Brad, you know, you’re really doing a great thing for the community. I’m a capitalist, I saw something where there was a surplus, which was labor, inexperienced, unskilled labor, etcetera, etcetera. And I needed, I needed labor, and we can teach them how to do this. So that’s worked out extremely well. We have no labor problems we have. We have a recovery office in our building, actually, that worked with wins recruit people in recovery. And there’s this waiting list to get to come to work for us where people want to be.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that’s a great story. And it just starts the rabbit hole of so many questions that I have for you pivoting from what you talked about because there are so many amazing things. But I would just clarify in terms of capitalism is it has to be synergistic. And it has to be, I guess, coherent with providing an exceptionally high-quality product or service that changes lives, which it ultimately does. So you’re in coherence with that. Also, you were able to, as you said, accidentally come across this way of being able to harvest at high yields or better yields than traditionally a very potent as it relates to inflammation, and in addressing the environmental triggers that the dinosaurs didn’t have to contend with in their day and age with, with all of the manmade aluminum is in deodorants and plastics with water and polyesters in the water and chemicals and particulates, which makes it that much more important to have this nerve to pathway and what your product yields. And ultimately, so So what I want to kind of go down though, which is really important as well, is that the killing of enzymes and the heating of foods and the processing of foods until it ultimately becomes dead. Because I think people don’t realize when they go to these different places like, there’s a place called Blaze kitchen where they make a pizza in like three minutes because it’s at 800 degrees, they don’t realize that they’re killing their foods, they’re killing their enzymes, and they’re not able to get the nutrients out of it. So you basically have just this dead food that doesn’t allow them to utilize the nutrients that they’re meant for. So why don’t you go down a little bit the pathway of how you guys evolved into understanding, hey, we really got something here in terms of the product. Now it’s this sulforaphane, which all these studies, so why don’t you take us down that pathway broad in terms of now what is the main product that you produce? And how did you arrive that that?   Austin Hodgkins: Good question. And there are several pieces to that. Not the least of which first, we had to figure out what vegetable what cruciferous or what plant contains the most Gluco Rathmann and Murasame. H those are the two ingredients that when they’re when they’re combined. They create sulforaphane. And they are we did some testing and do we did some things out to conventional laboratories and found out that broccoli was up there, but broccoli really blew everything else away. If you’re gonna eat one vegetable, it’s broccoli. Unfortunately, I’m not a real fan of broccoli, but whatever. And so, so So he decided on broccoli. The other thing is reading and studying the data. The clinical research is 3000 papers, by the way, published 3000 clinical studies published since tale. And in Jinfei, he and his crew at Johns Hopkins isolated sulforaphane back in the early 90s from 9190 to 3000. That’s such a fascinating product that everyone’s kind of all over. So. So we decided then on broccoli, and we had a little radish to it because if you put a spicy cruciferous vegetable, it seems that jack up the Murrah sneeze. And so someone told me somewhere, I read somewhere, that if you add a little radish or mustard or do the same thing, then you increase the ultimate sulforaphane by something like three to four times. Wow, that was pretty easy. So our product is 80%, broccoli, and 20%. We use daikon radish for that, which we’ve tried everything. So we ended up with, we ended up with our target product, which is broccoli red. And then the task became, okay, how can we grow it? How can we grow it to maximize the nutrients? And so we worked with flights and water protocols, and so on and so forth. And the great part about our product is only 10 days to grow it in a cycle. And so we can try something and 10 days later, we know how it worked. And we do it again and do it again and do it again. So everything we do is trial and error, for the most part. And so it by switching up the different techniques of watering and lighting and heating, and so on and so forth, for example, we’re CEA we’re controlled environment, agriculture, we’re totally inside. Now, most CPAs are in greenhouses or something like this. But that’s really borderline for what we do, we put we grow our product, in, in, in literally clean rooms in pods in containments. So one of the things that we find that has a lot to do with the nutrition, the potency, or the quantity of the micronutrient is how do you germinate them. And so seeds are like kids seeds and like people seeds are seeds that were all organic or all animals or plants. And so if you think about a kid before they’re born and their germination stage, their environment is high heat, high humidity. In Mama’s belly basically. And so we germinate 8585 85 degrees Fahrenheit 85% humidity. After three days once the germination finishes, then we put it back in an environment that is 70 degrees and 40% Humidity but he could think the person is the same way babies like high humidity high heat, but then they outgrow that after a while they don’t like plants don’t either. So sometimes we also use the analogy of dog years. You know this 721 We have plant years plants a one to one, a one-day-old plant is like a one-year-old person. Because a 70-year-old plant goes to see they’re pretty well a 70-day old plant, I should say, that’s, that’s the lifecycle of a plant, it’s about 70 days. And let’s say the life cycle over a person is 70 years, hard for a 76-year-old, like me to say that, but whatever, so I’m six years over. And so we treat the plants as if there are people, and so on and so forth. And so at the end of the day, we use vitamin A beta carotene as a baseline, I don’t know how I started that it’s just an easy thing to measure with an HPLC machine and they don’t, and it’s the cheapest one. And we went about and asked other people if they could help us grow, and learn more about it. And, and, and they all had to be sort of certified organic, not organic, certified organic, which means you have to be 100% in the product. And so we started collecting organic broccoli, and microgreens and started testing for vitamin A beta carotene, and the best we got was 33,000 I use per 100 grams 33,000 We’ve averaged 66,000 units of vitamin A beta carotene in our production. And so while if we thought about outsourcing the production, so far, we’re not able to do that, because we can’t find anybody that can, that can produce the same levels of, of nutrients without us telling them how we’re doing. And that’s our proprietary pieces that we’ve we’ve got some things that we do that the established or conventional vegetable growers aren’t, aren’t doing. And as a result, I think we have a product A this more potent, that has double the ingredients in it. But moreover, it’s life. It’s the living, it’s the living aspect of it. And that’s the real trick, as I say we dry it at 95 degrees and 18 hours.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, again, it’s amazing how you become so involved in potentiating, and extracting as much of the quality nutrient as you can. And I do want to get into more of what it actually does from a physiological standpoint. But a couple of things that you’re really proud of which I think you should be is just the high quality, the fact that you don’t put it in a capsule, the fact that it’s green, it smells like it could be broccoli, I mean, it’s not going to win any taste test of smell test awards, right in terms of how great it smells, but that means that it’s going to be that much more therapeutically beneficial. Why don’t you tell us in terms of because I love the emails that you send me with some of the markets some of the competitors on the market that have the similar product that just doesn’t have the same quality and if it’s not certified organic you were telling me a little bit as well is that defeats the whole purpose. Maybe just give us a little insight into that Brian.   Austin Hodgkins: Yeah, it seems like and we bought just not we haven’t bought every sulforaphane product on the market because that would be hundreds but we bought a lot of the ones that are most pocket and the first thing we look at if it’s powder the first thing to look at in the powder is receiver colorism and they all tend to be brown dark brown different shades of brown so that tells me there is no chlorophyll there’s no end there’s nothing live and then the next thing you do is smell it and when you smell it you can smell burned glucose and that means a lot of and that means that it’s been overheated and that the glucose the sugar basically has been burned and you haven’t you have a distinct it doesn’t take much to burn glucose will burn at about seven degrees over of boiling water. I also have a maple syrup business in Maine, by the way, so I’ve smelled a lot of burned glucose. And so those are the taste tests, you know, sight tests. And so we think if you’re not if you do say if you don’t smell bad, and you’re not you don’t look green, then then you don’t have it, you probably don’t have a live product. The other thing you mentioned was pills, pills, tablets, blah, blah, blah. Now a pill is a double aught pill, which is a standard size capsule. People take hold of about a quarter teaspoon of material. And if you put it in your mouth and swallow it, it’s probably not going to get any exposure to your biome until it gets at least into your gut. And then of course the test comes in the small intestine where it can cross the blood barrier and sulforaphane crosses the blood barrier quite nicely. It’s very bioavailable, because it’s a small molecule, as opposed to some of the competitors, which like Curcumin is really hot people love curcumin because it’s been marketed. The current Curcumin is about one to 2% bioavailable, they’ve got some super stuff out there now that one to 2%, so far famous about 75 to 80% bioavailable, so all these little, these little tricks have it’s got to be raw, and it’s got to be living. See, I think it has to be in a powder because it begins your receptors begin in your mouth. So people who have heart problems and they take various, you know, emergency medications, they don’t take them in pills, they put it under their tongue, they take it sublingually. So we think the first place that shouldn’t get exposed to this, so Kordofan use your mouth. And then and then it’ll work its way through your systems think things, things like that. By the way, the competitive products work, I mean, they’re fine. There’s no such thing as having, you know, eating a bad vegetable, or whether it’s a powder form or whatever, it’s old. It’s the old case of you know, bad breath is better than none, I guess. So we just always just a little more jacked up than that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know, I would maybe disagree to a certain extent, because of when it is picked before it’s ripened, and then it travels, and then it’s not organic. And there’s not the same quality nutrient, I used to do a lot of resonance testing muscle strength and see how coherent and how energetic that particular item is. And the proof really is in the pudding. If it’s been, if it’s been, I guess the word shortcut or taking, you know, the cheapest, expensive way in terms of less quality. And, you know, my wife always says, The lazy person works twice as hard. I think it’s true in terms of, if you’re not getting a good quality nutrient, and it’s not taken all these painstakingly ways to make it that much more effective than cheap is expensive, and you’re not getting the value out of it, which is a good segue, Brad, in terms of, I know you’re really proud of not just the anecdotal feedback that you get from people that use your product. But if I’m listening to this, and I’m thinking, okay, you’ve talked about how good the quality is and how we’ve done painstakingly ways to make it organic. And I love the idea that you work with, at-risk and, and the giving back to the community and everything that’s going on, but from your point of view, because I want to compare our notes and I can bring certain elements of the environment and the genetics and the potentials, and we say the genetics is the loaded gun. The environments are the triggers. And the people that are dealing with major health challenges. Have the perfect storm of these loaded guns going off all over the place. And I’m always happy to recommend pure sulforaphane powder from you guys to my people that listen to me because it’s not adulterated. And I always say companies get greedy with their products, meaning they put all these different things in there that have different qualities and, and excipients. And that may not be organic and toxic Tagalongs and things that you may not need at that particular time, even though another ingredient like sulforaphane is pretty much open to being used at the very beginning in the middle at the end. So I love the idea of just giving the sulforaphane powder on its own and not being concerned if I’ve never heard of you before, like a lot of people will email me Hey, what’s the best product for this or that or the other? And like, I don’t know you from Adam. So I can’t really recommend but I don’t have a problem recommending sulforaphane because I know how important nerf two support is and the physiological processes that are involved in that. But from your point of view, with the research that you’ve done and seen, with the anecdotal feedback that you’re getting from people saying, hey, this, that and the other, what are the most important benefits that you’re seeing now that we’re getting into? What does it actually do for you, like what are you seeing from the people and the research that you’re doing on your own?   Austin Hodgkins: You know, I take the keyword across the keyword with glutathione is, is inflammation. And when we talk about NRF, two the protein versus the pathway that allows the NRF two protein to make its way to the cell. It’s had a bit like power washing every cell in your body. And so if your cells are inflamed, if your felt cells are bursting become first you contract a, a toxic ingredient of some kind of virus or bacteria or bacteria, whatever. And then it forages around the so-called free radicals that then start running around inside your body looking for a weakness, that’s your immune system. If it finds some weak cells, as you know, the free radicals are because they have an imbalanced valence. And so they’ll attach themselves to it. And then the question is, are they going to be successful at infecting that cell? If they are successful in protecting that cell kind of one apple, rotten apple ruins the whole barrel, then they just feed on each other, and away you go. If your immune system and your cells are adequately immune and able to defend themselves, then that toxic free radical will go off somewhere else and end up dying and natural death and you will expel it. So sulforaphane doesn’t do anything for inflammation directly, but it cleanses your liver and allows the glutathione to be produced and then it goes in the whole thing becomes a domino, as often is the case that could be the root cause of people, we tend to treat symptoms, not the root cause. And so sulforaphane gets at the root cause it’s, it’s an inflamed cell and it kind of emanates from there. And that’s what sulforaphane does a similar thing in the pancreas. Because we know a Fatty Fatty pancreas is like fatty liver, and it blocks the production of insulin. And so we find people that are on sulforaphane, this sulforaphane, certainly. There, anyone sees and we just have loads of people with a one sees in the nine and 10 range that within 60 days, and so go to seven, we find people with cholesterol over 200 that goes below 100 within 30 days, and this is crazy. Now, will it do that for everyone? Boy, I don’t I can’t imagine that well, but the way to find out is to try it. So we emphasize just because it works in the lab just because Harvard said it works. Or Johns Hopkins says it works. And just because Joe Smith said it helped him doesn’t mean it’s going to help me. And so at the end of the day, as you say the biome is so complicated. And so we just found that people that are taking this, I’ve got a guy right now that just had a valve replaced, who’s been on this product for about three years. And after three days of having just cracked his chest open the whole deal, none of this baby stuff, this kiddie stuff of arthroscopic, they cracked him wide open, replaced the valve. He’s 75 years old. And three days later, he’s home and he’s off his meds he has taken no pain medications, zero. He does not take anything. But he’s been on sulforaphane for a couple of years, three years now. And they measured things like you know, what are your glutathione levels, you know, they’re off. They’re off the scale. And we know that there’s a local doctor here and David Horowitz, who’s done a lot of study with COVID which is a Trent which is a very transitory virus. It’s like you mentioned Lyme, Lyme disease is very transitory. My wife has a 25-year chronic Lyme sufferer. She hasn’t had an episode and in three years since she’s been on heavy-duty broccoli, so on and so forth. So yeah, the proof is in the pudding. But boys, a lot of people out there have been eating pudding. And it does. It coordinates very nicely with what the lab says what Hopkins says, and a lot of work done on this and China, by the way, the Chinese have really knocked themselves out to get at this sulforaphane cleanse cleansing of NRF two pathways, etc. So we just say well give it a try. If after 30 days, your energy level, you know hasn’t improved you talked about mycotoxins, mold issues, major and you know, people just they just beginning said, What do you mean mold? And that’s what we hear from Lyme patients. Anyway, it’s, it’s, I think, I think we got something I keep saying, I think we got something and my wife keeps telling me you know, you’re starting to believe this stuff yourself. And I mean, she does say that kiddingly because it works and people say oh my god, this stuff actually works. I’m not suggesting it works on everybody. But I know it works on a lot of people.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Know, it’s quite amazing stuff, and back to the original reason why I was so happy to reach back out to you because I remember I did this video on sulforaphane. And then I got this email, and then maybe a year went by, and I do eight hours a day of genetic test interpretations for people that are exhausted and burnt out. And ultimately, what I find, and I think people resonate with this, and you mentioned Hippocrates, but I think if you, Darren Hardy, were one of the original, pious pioneers have inflammation is behind all chronic health issues, or just aging in and of itself. And what I explained to people what nerf two is, is the analogy of if you’re in a building, and you have a sprinkler system on the ceiling so that if there’s smoke or fire, God forbid, knock on wood that kicks in, and it senses the smoke and the water gets released. That’s a great analogy to what nerf two is the sensor so that it actually releases the water. So I always tell people when I look at their genetics, and I see that they have these Nerf two weaknesses, meaning it doesn’t sense the smoke, but it doesn’t turn it on, and it doesn’t release the water, it’s like sitting at the side of a fire with the hose in your hand and you’re not turning it on. And would that make the fire burn more and create more damage, of course, it would. And that creates oxidation you mentioned in your cells. And that will cause further DNA damage, protein damage, cellular damage, and membrane damage, and that’s really what aging is all about. And you mentioned the pancreas as well, the pancreas, we’ve not just in terms of balancing your blood glucose, but it’s also very important for enzyme activity, right. So we find when people don’t move their iron effectively, iron can get trapped in the pancreas. And that will create a lot of hydrogen peroxide. And if we’re not signaling our glutathione to be released, because that’s what nerf two does, it’s not just the signaler of the turning on the fire hose, it helps to make the glutathione. And most importantly, it helps to recycle it meaning once it’s already been used up, it can go ahead and have it be recycled back up so it can be used once again. So it’s not even a good analogy anymore, just to say it’s turning on the water to be able to put out the fires, it’s actually making the water. And then it’s refilling the storage of the water in the actual, I guess reservoir if you will. And not only that I showed you a little bit earlier. And I will create a little pathway before this podcast begins on how it balances the growth and the repairing. So you use the analogy of the crops and or I’ll use the analogy of the crops that you want to grow at the beginning of the season and create a beautiful yield. But when the season’s over, you want to plow the field and allow those unused particles to get reused up and recycled and cleared out. And that’s called the toffee G and in our body. If we’re not getting the autophagy turned on where we can recycle out our dead cells or our proteins or chemicals or even bacteria then you’re not going you’re constantly going to be in the signaling of growth and production. And that’s why you could see more cancers and cardiovascular diseases and growth and stuff like that. And the nerve to also balances that as well. So the only thing I would say is in terms of some of the protocols where I would make a recommendation to someone more specifically based on what their environment and their specific genetics tell me what’s going on is I wouldn’t want them to necessarily have to nerf to every day all day and I’ll explain why basically what it means is we still want growth, right? You can’t be plowing the fields while you’re growing at the same time. And so what I like to do is I like to pull so I’ll say okay, Mrs. Jones, we’re going to be doing more growth-like things today. More proteins, more carbohydrates, more B vitamins maybe strength training. I don’t want to be plowing the fields at that time. So maybe I take a break from Doing my antioxidant systems. And then once I have grown a little bit, then it’s like going to the gym, if I’m going to the gym all the time, and I’m never taking a day off, I’m always watering the plant, it needs sunlight and the rest to grow. And I think that’s a really important point, in terms of that would be the only thing and you could still do it every day. But if I’m looking at the most effective outcome for the people that are the most health challenges, I want them to understand the oscillating between yin and yang between growing and repairing and recycling. So I think that’s a really important point as well. As far as your as far as any other clinical pearls or others other things that we haven’t talked about yet that you see because you said you know, I think there’s something here there is something here and when I look at all of the people that I work with that are exhausted and burnt out, ultimately they have some kind of problem with signaling their antioxidants, turning on the hose, making the water, recycling the water, and sulforaphane does that. So as far as anything that we haven’t talked about yet that you’d like to add to this.   Austin Hodgkins: I think the other side and the analogy that we use I use sometimes is your house is wired, and pipes. And both of them will oxidize, you can get rusty pipes are clogged up pipes, and you can also get rusty and plugged up wires. So the neurodegenerative area, we’re finding some interesting things there. Especially with with with autism, brain fog and early-onset dementia, and so on and so forth. A lot of studies again have been done, that it helps cleanse the wires, the nerve system, and whatnot, as well as the pipes. So again, it’s the proof is in the pudding. We find people and one of the advanced features that I have is I’m older, I’m old. There aren’t many advantages to being old, but this just might be one of them is that I’m telling you that once you hit 7075 76, you’re more challenged from an IT from an energy level. And I work 12 hours a day, six days a week. And I can do six hours and nights about what I need. That didn’t happen when I was 50 and 60 and 70. It’s only in the last few years that I’ve been keeping my inner too. And I took a physical last week before last and my doctor who’s a good friend of mine said When did you last take a physical so no, it was 2009 It’s embarrassing that the first and last time he took a full physical and I haven’t seen him literally for a cold or anything else for about four years, five years since I’ve been first it was the raw broccoli that we were eating and now it’s much easier to take the powder and I take two teaspoons a day sometimes one you say pulse you know some days if I feel really good. Yeah, maybe I’ll skip it. Actually, Forget it a lot too. But if you feel a little down or little Mogi sinuses was a problem for me for years I have no sinus problems haven’t had for several years. And a lot of my people that are using this thing so if you guys they say that Mother Nature had I think she had it figured out and we have accidentally stumbled upon a way to produce this in a raw live form just like the dinosaurs ate it by cooking it and eating it and it seems to have some great efficacy so we love to work with people and people are starting to lean away from the synthetic opioid steroid statin world knowing that while yeah my probably will make my pain go away. But in the long run, you know, it deteriorates my liver and my kidneys and my pancreas and so on and so forth. Kidneys are another thing we’ve had just crazy results with we’ve had just amazing results for people who have compromised kidneys and that’s happening within you know, within 10 days or two weeks their kidney their kidneys operate more, work more efficiently. So yeah, give it a try. That’s all we can say. And, and again, I’m hesitant to say the other stuff the competition doesn’t work do they think? I think it does. But I’d like to kind of work on you know, maybe a stronger dose of it. That’s all I mean, I tell him Phone, I grew up in a little town of 100 people on the Quebec border in Maine. And I remember we got our first telephone, it was a crank telephone. And, and it worked fine. It worked fine. But it didn’t work like the one we’re on right now. So if you had your choice, this smartphone is way beyond a crank phone or smoke signals or whatever they use even before that. But I think we’re in the next vert we’re at the net, we’re in the next version of natural of providing something where you can ingest massive quantities of broccoli equivalents, not the least of which is take the water out of them, you’ve multiplied the density by 10 times. And I think we’re in the, we’re in the next phase of how to deliver natural, natural products with living components. And we’re excited to work with your people because you have the same vision that it’s, there’s something’s gonna, that’s gonna kill humanity, it’s going to be, it’s going to be Malnik, we’re all going to be sick with our immune systems going to disappear, and we’re going to die. That’s how the dinosaurs died, the dinosaurs died from, from lack of food, which came from lack of light energy, which came from the meteorite hitting and cane wherever whatever story you believe. But the one thing that’s for sure is they lived 165 years, some of them had life expectancies of 300 years old. And the only thing that could kill him is they killed the plants. And so as long as you’re eating like a dinosaur, I think you’ve got a, you got a better shot at having not only a longer but unhealth in this country is measured by how long you live, not your quality. So I think, to live to be 100 is good, but to get sick and 50 and live to be 100. There’s not much in that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah, you know, there’s, it’s, it’s refreshing because I think that we’ve been our big man has bigger been our biggest enemy in terms of not preserving the earth and you ask the Native American with their opinion on what we’ve done is we’ve really adulterated it and, you know, food is medicine, and not having the minerals in the soils and, and just having contaminants and chemicals, it really has impacted our nutrition, and to be able to give this gift of this ingredient that certified organic and is extremely high in its potential potencies. And what it does physiologically use your 100%. Right as Mother Nature had it, right. And these nutrients that we get from the earth if they’re unadulterated, and they’re high rich in soils, and, and elements and all the minerals that you need. It really helps your body heal, and it’s stronger than any prescriptive medication. And I’m sure that’s why the pharmaceutical industry is not happy about having these really high, you know, effective nutrients, and to speak to your more energy. I always tell people brought I’m, I’m a consultant to your body, and your body has a demand and supply problem. And if you’re inflamed and you’re not signaling and turning on your firehose, then you have increased demand and a decreased supply. And when you have increased demand and decreased supply, that’s where in real life you have to make sacrifices. And you say, Okay, I’m not going to travel, I’m not going to go out for dinner, I’m not going to buy those extreme extra luxury items, I’m only going to keep the essentials on like the power and potentially just get the basics. And that’s what your body does. It only maintains the most essential things. But when you decrease the demand and supply imbalance, and you start to lower the demand and increase the supply, in your case, you mentioned having the amount of energy, that’s where you get that extra energy. If I can have you as a business consultant to your body, pay down your expenses, you’re gonna have that much more income biochemically to spend on other things that you haven’t been able to do before. And that’s really what it’s all about. So the other thing I wanted to add is, is that I love the idea of, you know, people can’t that have microbiome issues, can’t tolerate raw vegetables in the fiber form that they are. So they cook it at high temperatures, and then they take away the enzymes in the nutrients. But when you put it in a powder, it keeps all the goodness in there in it. It allows a person’s microbiome to assimilate that. The only other thing I would add is is that some people read The Internet and Dr. Google and say, Oh, broccoli is in good because of, potentially it’s goitrogenic and what I tell people is, is that you take out the bad when you potentiate a sulforaphane and you’re just getting the chemical properties of the effect of nutrients and you don’t have to worry about some of those things that you read on the internet with the downfall of broccoli. So, Brett, I want to thank you for your time I always have a question that I asked my guests before we leave and it’s like knowing what you know now with what you wish you would have known then so I always say like the sage-like broad now with you know, the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed when you were in your younger years, what would you have told yourself or done differently to have supported your health? A lot better knowing in your Sage-like wisdom now? What you didn’t know back then?   Austin Hodgkins: Yeah, it’s the old steel country-western song Waylon Jennings, he said if I didn’t know that I was gonna live this long to take better care of myself. So as you mentioned, Native Americans My grandfather was, was born and raised on Penobscot Indian Reservation in Maine, which is not a big deal. I’m from everybody. Somebody said to you, you get you to know, Indian blood Indian desert doesn’t everybody, but I found out when I came into the real world, not everybody does, but that I probably would have concentrated more earlier. On You know, my diet, I was kind of a candy Holic, sugar Holic alcoholic, it’s all same thing. It’s all glucose. And I would have probably started earlier, but my kids, we have six children, and we have 20 grandchildren. And for me to take a great, you know, they come to visit us now. And then none of them live in this area, but one of them in particular. And so the idea of going to McDonald’s, you know, to have a nice big mac or something. You know, my 10-year-old man son would like no way, you know, I don’t believe we’re doing this mom would kill me. And I said don’t worry about mom, we can pick her up. He so I just don’t eat that stuff. There’s a 10-year-old. So I think if I could go back and do something different I would. I’d be more averse, to my diet. But yeah, even like smoking as I say I grew up, you know, 20 miles from Quebec, Canada, and everybody we’re all bloggers. Everybody smoked. I mean, smoking a pack a day. We had a smoking room in the elementary school. I went to a one-room K through eight schools in one room. And if you were in sixth, seventh or eighth grade, you can smoke. There was a big deal. I don’t think that’s a good idea anymore. But even though where I’m from they still do your Aren’t you from up north somewhere?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Originally from Toronto? Yeah, I’m originally from Canada.   Austin Hodgkins: Yep. The Canadians and you know, us northern demeanors? Yeah, I thought we thought we were Canadian until high school. We were 20 miles from Canada and 70 miles from the nearest movie theater, but it’s a lifestyle, its lifestyle. And the younger generation, I think they’re getting it. I think it’s we’re getting great reception as preventive because preventive is really a tough nut to crack. Because unless you’re sick, it’s when you get desperate. It’s when you get Lyme disease or when you start getting chronic fatigue and you can’t figure out what it is that you’re getting desperate. And so I think if you can not wait until you’re desperate to find something and take better care of yourself when you’re younger.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Easier said we you know, it is good words of wisdom. The body is incredibly resilient and incredibly forgiving. As you see with your testimonials with people who haven’t necessarily taken good care of their body, and they get on a really consistent regimen of sulforaphane. Now, that doesn’t mean it’s going to be a magic wand. I mean, it can be very, very effective. But obviously, if you want to take your health to the next level, then you start making additional changes and lifestyle changes that are proactive and healthy. It’s interesting. If you go to YouTube and you Google like the 1960s, or even 1950s or 40s Cigarette commercials, they were even having doctors that were advocating and endorsing cigarettes because they would increase you know, respiratory function and so forth. It’s amazing how that is but yeah.   Austin Hodgkins: My dad ran a general store in this town of 100 people, as I say up in the mountain Western mount and remain in Appalachia. And we would have full-size cutouts of beautiful women smoking cigarettes, saying if you want to look like this smoke because it’s great for your diet, and it is nicotine is a dietary supplement for sure. But yeah, they were promoting it as theirs being very healthy. And they got away with that for a long time. And the same with synthetic pharmaceuticals and drugs. They’ve gotten away with it for a long, long time. And that’s one of the headwinds we have certainly is they’re not excited that if you start taking so forth pain and things like, like wound will heal much faster, diabetics, keep it stay away from the diabetics, the podiatrists are, are doing really well on foot sores, for example, you take sulforaphane within 30 days, it’s amazing what happens to heal if you have blisters. If you have blisters on your feet or whatever, just put mix some of this powder with aloe and put it on them and they’ll be gone in a few hours. And they’ll literally be done. So what can I say?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Amazing stuff. And that’s why I was excited to interview you and get your take and start to work with you and present this product and have it readily available for people and see educate them on why it’s so important. So we are starting to make this product available to our listeners so that they can have that note will be linked in the show notes. But hey, Brad, I want to thank you so much for being here. I don’t want to thank Carol for the introduction it’s sort of the hero behind the scenes as well I’m sure and you know to tell her I say hello and I appreciate it.   Austin Hodgkins: Well she’s hiding she’s very camera shy I can’t get her camera shot. So we’ll get her on one of these days.   Dr. Joel Rosen: One of these days All right, well listen, I appreciate all that you do. And then I’m probably going to want to talk to you a little bit about the vitamin A off the notes off the record for another project potentially. But thank you so much for what you do and I appreciate everything that you guys represent over there.   Austin Hodgkins: Good. Thanks, pleasure. For people excited To order your 1 0z or 2 oz certified organic sulforaphane click here    The post Sulforaphane and Its Health Benefits: Why Should I Add It To My Supplement Regimen? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health podcast where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health, so that they can get their energy back quickly. nd I’m really excited to interview our next guest, who has recently released the second edition of his best-selling book unstoppable, which is a 90-day plan to Biohack your mind and your body for success. Ben Angel is here with us. And Ben, I want to thank you for joining us today and sharing your time with us.   Ben Angel: Yeah, it’s my absolute pleasure. I’m excited to dive into it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so Well, let’s dive right in. So you have the second edition of unstoppable and it’s a 90-day biohacking plan for success. And I guess I would just start with what inspired you to go down these rabbit holes and write a book like this? Because I don’t think that’s where your background is in. Right. So maybe give us a little journey through memory lane.   Ben Angel: Yeah, so it was kind of out of necessity at the time. For the first kind of 15 years of my professional career. I’ve been a professional speaker, helping coach CEOs, and entrepreneurs, and also in the area of marketing. But it was I think, about almost five years ago, that I did a three-month trip around the US. And when I finally got back home to Australia, I was suddenly here with fatigue, depression, and anxiety that wasn’t typical of me at the time. And I had to give up my speaking career because I couldn’t find the right thoughts. I wasn’t comfortable getting up on stage anymore. And I didn’t speak at an event for three years. And I used to speak at over 60 events per year. So that was a big deal for me at the time. I was going to various doctors, I wasn’t getting the answers that I needed. And people asked, okay, well, what were you eating? What were you doing? I had the strictest healthiest diet possible. I was doing CrossFit. I was meditating, I was doing everything that you should. And just nothing worked. And it was, I think one conversation interaction with one doctor that inspired me to go on this journey and research the book was I explained my symptoms to them. And she effectively just said, Well, you’re tired, you might have chronic fatigue, most people just don’t get over it. So just kind of deal with it to a large degree. And at the time, I was suicidal. And I walked out of that doctor’s office in tears going this is the fifth doctor that I’ve seen in the past year, I’ve been constantly dismissed that you kind of not necessarily saying it outright, but you kind of just have to deal with it and get over it. And I was supremely frustrated because I realized at the time, I could go in one of two directions. One was to accept it. But accepting it meant I would never be able to speak on stage again because I wasn’t functioning. And the second thing I’d have to accept is that I wouldn’t be able to write any more books. And that’s, you know, that’s my soul’s purpose. That’s what I love doing. So I got to this crossroads. And I thought, Well, how am I going to fix this problem? So I came up with in hindsight was probably one of the craziest ideas I could think of which I thought, Okay, I’m an author, I’ll pitch to Entrepreneur magazine at a time when I was providing business education videos, to I’ll pitch to them the idea that I would go on this 90-day mission to buy a hack my way back to health. And, you know, I didn’t think it through at the time because the truth was, I didn’t know if I was gonna get better or not. I could have done that, signed the book contract, and then had to refund the book advance at the end of it because I wasn’t any better. And I certainly wasn’t going to lie to people through a book. So that took me from Australia to Florida, here in the US to interview functional doctors, different gut health, TSA even traveled to Canada to interview biohackers and nootropics experts different like biohackers as well as neuroscientists, psychiatrists, counselors, nutritionists to start to pull the pieces of the puzzle together. It’s probably one of the hardest but most rewarding journeys I’ve ever been on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a good intro. There are so many things that I think of there in terms of you coming to that crossroads where you can go left or right. I think a lot of reoccurring themes with the clients that we work with, have that ready fire aim mentality where they just sort of jump right in and now Hey, It’s sink or swim, and I’ll give you an A quick little analogy as I remember when I went to chiropractic college in the US, I grew up in Toronto, and I didn’t have enough financing to get through a full year. And I did everything you needed to do to be able to show the US immigration to be able to qualify for a student visa. But I also remember thinking, holy crap, how am I going to get through the year because I don’t have enough money. And I gotta find and I ended up getting I joke around, I ended up getting a loan from an agency. If it wasn’t Luigi and, and Carmine that were going to come and get me once I didn’t pay it back. It was just crazy interest rates, but I had to do it. But the bottom line is, are my buddies, the best man of my wedding said to him, What are you doing? Like what, like, what happens if you don’t get through it? And I’m like, Are you sure? And yes, it created my stress. But it wasn’t an option. Right? It’s sort of like burning the boats of Cortez and not allowing the option of failing to be a reality. Yes, it’s stressful. But you are going to find your way. And I think it’s it’s indicative of why you got the success that you did. Because even though it was a daunting task, I guess there was no option but to get better. So yeah, as far as what was the? I guess the question would be is, when you heard the words, there’s you just got to accept them. And that wasn’t good enough for you? What was it? Do you feel that that made you continue to search? And part B of that question was, was the term biohacking already on your mind? Or do you already know about it? Or functional medicine? So more long, like okay, no, I’m not going to take no for an answer. And I know that there’s this alternative world that I need to explore. So maybe kind of give us a little insight on that.   Ben Angel: Yeah, I think the reason that I kept going is I grew up on a cattle farm in South Australia. So which is farming is the original hustle into a dying culture as far as I’m concerned. And unfortunately, farmers have some of the highest suicide rates out of most professions, because it is a sink or swim environment, if you don’t plant the crops at a certain time, he can’t. So the crops later. And so I grew up with a very strong father, who I witnessed go through seven years of drought, making no money, still making a work somehow. So I had those values instilled in me, but it was also because I am an author, and I’ve been in office since I was 23 years old, was that interest and kind of sparked a little bit of interest in me that I thought, Okay, what else is out there? What are the questions that are not asking myself that I need to be asking myself? And also what are the questions that the doctors aren’t asking me? Because they know if I’m not getting the answer, and I’m not getting better, they’re not asking me the right questions. And hacking did pop up on my radar at one point, I think it was through Dave Asprey at the time. And it was then that I kind of looked at that field of expertise and started branching out but also backtracking to go or what was the sequence of events that occurred in the months before that I was suddenly here with depression. And there were certain things such as taking a course of antibiotics for sinus infection. Now, as we know, here, the chances of depression after taking two courses of antibiotics biotics go up by 45%, because we need a healthy gut microbiome as well as the right nutrition to produce the right neurotransmitters. Now, my gut did not heal, as it should have after those the course of antibiotics. But of course, when you’re in the thick of it, you don’t understand any of that, because you’re taking a medication that your doctor has recommended at the time, yes, I needed it. But what I also needed was a protocol to heal from taking the course of antibiotics, which I just wasn’t educated on at the time. And I think throughout this process, I came to understand and look at myself kind of like a mobile phone. So for each of us, when we go to bed at night, we typically put our phone on the charger and we wake up in the morning, it’s fully charged, and it’s good to go. But throughout the day, the battery starts draining the background tasks start slowing down. And when we hear maybe five or 10% charged left, it’s typically when power saving mode comes on, which is when everything slows down. You can’t use your flashlight. You can’t make many calls because it’s about to die. And I started to look at myself as Okay, I have this energy and the Morning for a couple of hours where I can focus and I’m good. But as the day is driving on, I get depleted. So I had this energy deficit between my goals and how much energy I had to be able to reach those goals. But there was this gap in the middle where it just wasn’t enough. And in speaking with neuroscientists, psychologists and counselors, actually asked, one counselor said, Is there a particular time of day that you do not take patients? Because you just don’t get results? And she said, Yes, well, there’s one client that I will not see after two o’clock in the afternoon, even if she begs to see me because those sessions are always ineffective. And that’s where I created this, I guess a biohacking framework, and put individuals into four different identity types. Because as our energy drains throughout the day, our identity shifts, the second we get hangry, we get moody, we get grumpy, we can’t focus. So we go from defenders who are kind of zero to 25%, psychological and biological energy. So they’re the ones in that hyper-vigilant state, they are in hyperarousal where every single thing in their environment is a threat, then we have guardians who are 25 to 50% Charge, very similar to defenders, they’re just a little bit better, then, above the 50% threshold, we have synergies, and then we have catalysts for the peak performance. And what I found is when we kind of hit the 50% threshold of how much energy we have, we automatically switch into self-preservation mode, which is where fight or flight comes on, and your primal brain is trying to prioritize vital bodily functions are over your goals, it doesn’t give a damn about your goals. It’s just trying to get through the day. So automatically, our behavior changes to protect what resources we have left. And in understanding that and for people listening, map out your day, like at what point do you hit that self-preservation mode? Or are you constantly stuck in it like a defender is because becoming aware of that takes the self-hatred and self-loathing off of your shoulders because you’re no longer blaming yourself? You’re just understanding yourself, which we’ve seen life-changing for 1000s of people when they kind of understand how that concept works.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and you have a quiz that you can take, yes, we can put that in the link. But what is the link for them to take that quiz?   Ben Angel: Yeah, it’s how you unstoppable.com. And we’ve had over 75,000 people take that quiz, there are 30 questions based on both psychology and biology. I believe we’ve collected over 1.5 million pieces of data. And you start to see very specific patterns occur from the biological side versus the psychological side to go, okay, the prevalence of gut health issues in the lower group, such as defender or guardian might be 80 to 85%. All those groups are all so likely to suffer from depression, fatigue, not be able to focus not be able to reach their goals. So provided us and when I first launched that would serve I think about 1000 to 2000. But as the data keeps coming in daily, these patterns keep being instilled.   Dr. Joel Rosen: With amazing, it’s like your own little study, and I would love to help you look at the data and say, Hey, there’s another thing in there. But for me, for purposes of today, a couple of things that I think have been I think about there was a study in I think it was Israel, Israel, and they worked stuttered, studying judges, and the closer they got, or the further they got, was that in your book, or was that but or was that just something I’ve read somewhere else where the closer they got to or the further away they got from eating their food, or the more their decisions were not in favor for the defendant. So it kind of tells us about when we have an energy supply and demand problem. It impacts us just like I explained this to our clients think of your body as a business. And if you have more income than expenses, then your business is thriving. And you could do a lot of things that you plan on growing and scaling but think of it as if your expenses are bigger than your income. You’re going to have to make some decisions and at the cellular level that’s going to impact reproduction, motivation, libido, because those are not priorities when you’re just wanting to cool down the body when it’s hot or warm it up when it’s cold or increase the respiratory rate or blood flow. But what I love is that you have this understanding of there’s a psychological price that is paid when there’s an energy crisis. So why don’t you share with us how that supported your recovery process? And your aha was that you had when there’s a demand and supply problem that impacts your mood and your and your thought processes and your emotions and so forth. So you can go down that.   Ben Angel: Yeah, well, I think the biggest aha moment for me is coming from the so the field of personal development was that I realized that with the hustle and today’s culture, we constantly telling people to work harder and faster, jump higher, you know, work those long hours, if you don’t get enough sleep, it’s kind of like a badge of honor. And part of the problem with that is that if you’re biologically depleted, as well as psychologically depleted, then that kind of mottos that toxic positivity causes you to constantly blame yourself. And I ask people the question, which is what would happen to a peak performer if you depleted them of vitamin D, vitamin D, and magnesium, obviously critical for brain health? What would happen to a peak performer if you disrupted their gut health, and changed their diet? Well, they would end up depressed and motivated and procrastinate just like the rest of us would. And I think it’s understanding that when I came across that aha moment, for me, it was like, Well, okay, I need to stop blaming myself, for everything and just start to look at the pattern that’s unfolding. And I think that was probably the biggest key to healing for me to understand, okay, my energy is dipping up and down throughout the day. That’s a natural, normal part of life. But why is it being stuck here? Instead of blaming myself for having a lack of willpower? What’s going on under here? So I have a journal as well biohacking journal, where each day, I look at 16 different triggers. And I asked myself the question, how is my gut health today? Am I chronically stressed out right now? And my shallow breathing? Because I’m working too hard? Or I’m filming videos? What’s the ventilation like in the room? Am I hydrated? Or have I had too much caffeine, which is a great topic, I’d love to talk to you for a second as well. But understanding that answering those questions daily, stops that self-blame from occurring. And when we look at depression, and anxiety, we constantly beating ourselves up. And then there is for me, I think there’s a dark side to the self-help industry, that we just look at the psychological perspective when someone is depressed, but we don’t look at the biological perspective enough, either. And that’s been reinforced through I don’t know how many years of self through the self-help movement. So I like to tell people to look at it as one coin, there are two sides to every coin. One is biology, and one is psychology. And if you’re just focused on one or the other, then the answers you get will always be imbalanced. And you won’t necessarily get the answers that you need to heal.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, oh. I think that’s a great point I explained to some of the clients I work with this, you can’t be the Dalai Lama, and still have a major oxidative Ember that’s not being extinguished in the body, and not address that and expect your willpower or your positive, positive mental attitude to overtake everything. And now on the flip side, even if you do all of that, and you’re not thinking about the, I guess, the plasticity or the impact that the repetitive fatigue has created in your brain to etch out the program to run automatically, as soon as a stressor happens, the emotion of I’m not good enough, or I’m just not going to be able to do it, or I don’t deserve to be healthy. All of them need to be worked on and then identify.   Ben Angel: And the biochemistry will only support a positive thought as long as it’s been balanced, and it’s looked after. And it’s not to say we should put more emphasis on one or the other. So we need to cover all of our bases. And I mean, I spoke to a clinical counselor when I was researching the book and she had one particular patient who was constantly suicidal for almost five years and thankfully she hadn’t acted on that and anyone listening, please ring a helpline and get support as soon as possible. But through the conversations I had with her, she messaged me a few months later and said, then my patient had a vitamin D test done and found that she was severely deficient. And within three months of dealing with a deficiency, the suicidal tendencies laughed, she changed her job, she started a new business, and she reconnected with family and friends whom she had spoken to for years. Now, that’s not to say vitamin D is the only thing, of course, it’s not. But to just be working with that client. And for my friend, particularly, it was such an eye-opening experience with her, who she now sends all of her clients to the doctor and make sure that they get a full panel done on their blood tests to make sure that there aren’t any deficiencies. And we get, we get emails from doctors and psychologists every single month saying that they’ve changed the way that they treat their patients after reading the book, which is incredibly humbling to me. Because I’m not a doctor, I’m not a nutritionist, I looked at this from a kind of research, investigative research perspective, to heal myself. And to give people a framework to say, here’s the framework, here are some of the key areas that you need to start with. And here’s where you kind of need to branch out next.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, that’s awesome. It’s sometimes it’s, it’s not rocket science, right at the same time, like, we want to think about it as there’s a lot of sophisticated moving parts. And it does get very scientific and a lot of people that are in that frustration and just exhaustion, they have to use the energy, the limited that they have to be their advocate and go down those rabbit holes. And it can be very complicated. But at the same time, it isn’t rocket science. I have a gardener who’s older, and his wife passed. And I called him the other day, and he didn’t sound coherent. And he didn’t make it to our house. And I thought, Oh, that’s weird. Let me call him again. And I said, Hey, Fred, are you having challenges since your wife passed? I mean, are you cooking your meals? Like, when was the last time you ate? Well? Are you getting nourishment? And he hadn’t, and he’s out all day. And I said, Listen, you got to get food that is your grandmother would recognize, right? Because it’s got to come from the earth. And it’s got to be plentiful. And it’s got to be nutritious, and you’re drinking enough water. And I know that he’s already doing better because of that major fact. So you talk about what I like that you talk about that. And it’s exciting to hear that you’re changing practitioners, Mo, and their whole way of looking at things which is fantastic. So what I like to get into now is as far as the bio hacks, so I guess what would you say for someone who I think at this day, unless we’re living in a cave, we understand what biohacking is. But what would you say biohacking is given your definition of what you’ve been through? And then maybe let’s start to talk about what you feel are some of the best bio hacks that you are still implementing recommend?   Ben Angel: Yeah, biohacking by definition keeps changing depending on each person you speak to. So for me, I’m specifically looking at okay, what are different bio hacks to improve brain function, mood, and improved digestion through the gut-brain access to ensure that we’re functioning at our absolute best. Now, that can include a myriad of different things. So my giant in dopamine, looking at nutrition, getting blood tests done getting the gut health tests done, can also include different devices like the one that I have sitting on my desk right here, which admits it’s a PMF device. So it emits a specific frequency and you pop it on your head. So your brain starts to sync with the frequencies that are submitting. So if I’m stressed out, I pop it on, I will put a theater frequency on and I did it before the interview, just to relax. So I can just let my brain process the information. And I find things like that helped a lot. But I think when it comes to biohacking, people just need to be aware that they do need a framework to work within. And when I first started before I wrote the book, I didn’t have a framework of the four different identity types to compare myself. So each week I take the online quiz myself and say, Okay, I’ve dipped a little bit this week. What does that mean? What do I need to do this week, and then I’ll look at a specific Biohack that might help that. So maybe I’m stressed out because I just wrote 5000 words in one day. And my brain is overstimulated and to address that, that might simply mean putting an ice pack on my forehead before I go to sleep, to call the prefrontal cortex down. So things like that I’ve learned to use to make sure that I’m performing at my best and to also make sure that I don’t slip into depression again. Because it can be incredibly easy. And like you said, with your friend, the gardener, that when you’re going through chronic stress, you’re been hit by both the psychological and biological side. And it’s very hard to solve the problems yourself. So it’s very hard to kind of, conceptualize and for people suffering from trauma as well, if you’re trying to deal with childhood trauma, on top of vitamin D deficiency on top of a magnesium deficiency, on top gut health issues, then all of those underlying issues are going to amplify that traumatic experience because the body and the brain are in a complete state of disarray. So sometimes we need to work from the bottom up, we need to address these other issues, and get our brain functioning, the best it can. And then what we found with a lot of people that have read the books or done my online programs, is that once I addressed those other issues, the amplification of the stresses in their life tends to either disappear, or they’re in an actual position where they can logically think through and deal with it. So to me, biohacking. It’s one of those terms, it’s going to keep changing based on the technology that we have, as well as the supplementation as well as nootropics, and smart drugs. And it’s quite astounding what we’ve got coming through the pipeline in terms of a new medicine that’s coming out, it’s exciting. On the other hand, it’s also we need to be hyper-vigilant and that we don’t just fall for anything and everything, which I think a lot of people are doing right now.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, more. So I like your definition, I look at it as also data tracking. You want to know objectively where you are and where you’re going. Because a lot of clients or even people that I talked to, they’re doing so many things, and it throws whatever crap against the wall that you can and you don’t know if it’s making a difference or not. So you can track with key metrics as to whether it is so that you have those shades of grey being identified, that you may not notice until it’s changing colors at the subjective level that it’s going in the right direction. And I think that’s key because I had a conference, the biohacking Congress conference that I spoke about I spoke at, and I think that most biohacking isn’t so much for optimization. Right now. It’s more for ending pain, I think it’s we’re on the defense. And so you look at the pandemic and how it’s a metabolic issue that created such a bad response to something that we would I think normally be able to address or deal with. But that’s more of a pointer of, it’s the best of the best and the worst of the worst. So yes, it’s an exciting time to see that we have ideas on how your genomics work so that you can customize a recovery strategy. We have all these cool things that we could implement and have amazing results. But yet, we’re surrounded by 5g if more daily, and glyphosate and pesticides and sprays and social media and just a frenetic pace of life, that it’s also an epidemic in terms of how problematic and so I always say it’s the best of the best and the worst of the worst.   Ben Angel: Yeah, I think that we have to be very careful because you can become obsessed with every single individual component of what’s going on. Now if you’re obsessed with every single thing, you know, I am concerned that to a degree some of the biohacking how much has been pushed could create mental health disorders or anxiety where it shouldn’t exist in the first place. So if we’re talking about toxins in our food, etc, then we do need to be wary of okay, the dose always makes the poison. And I think the most important thing for me personally because I did go through that complete obsession phase of tracking every single little thing to make sure that I’m doing it right. But at the end of it, I kind of came out of and said, Okay, well what’s working for me and what’s not working for me right now? I don’t give a damn what the next kind of evil thing is being positioned as in the biohacking space which happens because it drives I was clicks, views, and comments. I’m from a social media background, I also understand how PR and media work. So I think it’s very important for people to understand, that just because an issue has been brought to your awareness, it doesn’t necessarily mean it’s affecting you individually. Take a step back, look at your diet, if you eat a food that’s been demonized right now, and you’re fine, then based on your bio-individual individuality, maybe your body can process that food right now. But if you’re already depleted, maybe you’re extremely affected by it. And that’s up to the individual. So it’s very easy to go down a scary rabbit hole. Based on some of the information that’s being put out there, though, I’ll be honest, some of it has been disheartening in the past couple of years to me, where I’ve taken a step back and said, you know, you’re, you’re scaring people without needing to scare them. And I think, based on bio-individuality, we just need to take a step back, find a good functional doctor or someone such self to look at, okay, what’s affecting the individual instead of being bombarded with all of this information, because we have all these supplements and products out there. And there’s always something that they’re fighting against to sell the product. And I think it’s really important for people to understand that so they don’t get sold on stuff that they potentially don’t even need.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Those are really good words, to listen to bad. You know, again, it comes down to simplicity and the Pareto principle, and what can you do 5% change that will give you 95% improvements? Or what are the big rocks don’t trip over dollars to save pennies and so forth, like, and I think that was one of the challenges I had with my coaching clients is, I want to teach you how to understand what your weak links in the chain are for yourself so that you don’t pull on them and how it expresses. And I want you to be aware of these certain numbers or metrics, but at some point, it becomes do the ends justify the means you’re getting stressed to try to figure this stuff out? Yeah, it’s making you crazy, right. And so with that being said, what would you say then what are for you and what you’ve researched, that are some of the 95% improvements with 5% impact given that you realize that it’s not just taken this pill because that’s frustrating for me, I get a lot of comments that say, Hey, can you recommend a supplement, or I’m part of biohacking Facebook groups, and hey, what’s the bio-hack for this? What’s the bio-hack for that, and you know what I want to say there’s no free lunch, you could do a long time to get to where you got to, and it’s going to take you time to get out of where you got to. And once you create a surplus you will refer to this as one of the other things are saying the body will take care of itself. So if you have a demand and supply problem, and you start making more biological income, then you do expenses, you don’t need to micromanage how the body’s going to use that it’s going to fill up the cups that need the most filling up in the first place. So with that being said, though, what would the listener do? What could you want to tell the listener that, hey, these are the things that I know, I’ve seen the best results for me? And it may be different for you. But here are the ones that I love. And here are the ones that I see have the most impact?   Ben Angel: Yeah, it’s kind of because we divvied it up into four of the different identity types defend the Guardian, synergist, and catalyst. With the defender, for example, we know based on a survey and 75,000 people that they’ve had suicidal thoughts in the past month. But we also know that their nutrition is incredibly poor. So immediately, we recommend, please go to a doctor, ideally, a functional Doctor Who will look at the body holistically and consider every single thing. And the other reason I recommend functional medicine is because you will typically spend up to an hour with your doctor versus the medical system where you might get 1015 minutes if you’re lucky. It’s I still can’t believe that doctors can make a diagnosis in that. And that’s not a criticism of the doctors themselves. It’s a criticism of how the healthcare system has been set up effectively. So if they’re a defendant then it would be functional medicine doctor get all your blood panels done I would also recommend getting a health test. Also speaking with a doctor about any medications that I’ve been on for the past couple of years. I at the time was also I’ve been asked manic. I was a kid I used to get rushed to the hospital because we didn’t have the Ventolin inhalers that we do now. But I found personally that the Ventolin inhaler was one of the causes of my depression anxiety. Now, thankfully, even though the doctor said I’d never get off, I’ve been off of it for I think three and a half years. Because I, because I looked at every other component around it and it was kind of a happy accident. I never got to decide to buy a hack to get off of the medication. But it was then becoming more conscious than when I had to take increase my dose because of hay fever season. Like why is my depression anxiety peaking during hay fever season? Okay, well, that coincides with an increase in medication I’m taking the time to. So that’s kind of for defenders. Guardians are very much similar. And, you know, I think one of the most important things people can do is, first of all, look at the diet and identify any dietary triggers. For me, caffeine is a massive trigger. And you know, as you’ve read in the book when I came back from my three-month trip around the US, I had the worst jetlag like you’re flying from the US back to Australia, which is at a completely different timezone. So I started drinking coffee to kind of get functioning without realizing that I’m highly sensitive to caffeine. And we know that caffeine increases lactate in the brain, which is implicated in panic attacks. And I came across an incredible story, Ruth Wallen, who is extremely allergic to caffeine, she was admitted to a psychiatric hospital with bipolar disorder, split personality, anxiety, and depression. And thankfully, a doctor came along and realized it was caffeine. That was her trigger. It wasn’t just her mindset, her mindset was a symptom of a psychoactive drug that she was consuming daily. So for defenders and guardians who are especially depleted, I always suggest, you know, take yourself off of caffeine for the next 30 days, gradually switch it up for green tea that contains theanine or black tea that contains their name, because your dose in half and see how you feel within that 30 days. And you can certainly speak to adrenal fatigue and the effects of caffeine in that particular area. So for me, it starts with the basics. And then when you move into kind of synergistic catalysts, that’s where you’re going to start looking at more. Okay, are there wearable devices that can help with my stress and anxiety? And I know you asked me the question about the risks, devices that I mentioned in the book, which vibrate on each of your wrists, and they kind of sit in short circuits, the primal brain. And one of my favorite stories in the book is from my great friend Trish, who has had the less phobia, which is fear of deepwater in the ocean, where she had to give up a job because it was right near where the ships came in at the port here in Tampa. And she wanted to try the wearable devices, they’re called touchpoints, we put them on her, she started looking at visual imagery of the deepwater ocean, the jaws movie poster, which you can never look at, like her fear was bad. And we did that. And then eventually, she wanted to go to the pirate ship and touch the ship. And then several months later, she was swimming, which she hadn’t swam for over 20 years. And her husband said to her Trish, do you realize that the water is actually out to your neck. And she just stopped and almost broke down in tears because the fear had just disappeared without having to deal directly with the childhood trauma that had caused it. So there are different ways to get the same result without having to dig out past experiences. And I think with biohacking, you do need to trust your intuition because it’s one part science one part intuition. For those that are listening, you live in your body 24/7. Do you know what’s going on? It’s up to you to effectively communicate that with the right person, potentially multiple different people in the medical field.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that was a well-thought answer because I agree with you can’t think of bio hacks to replace the foundational fundamental things and I think that’s the way you answer that, especially when you progress it through the defender and The Guardian that these are the things that you can expect the other things to work unless you have this and you’ll find that once you move into the synergist and catalysts that the wearables or the other quote-unquote, biohacking do Tools will be that much more effective. Once I mean, synergistic once you are using that, right, Matt reminds me that I put a note down here. When I read the book, I said, I have to do a genome interpretation for Ben, because I know he’s got a massive histamine issue, whether he realizes it or not. The way I look at it just as an aside, when I suffered from an adrenal fatigue problem, it was frustrating for me to figure out why have I never heard of this when I have the background and education that I do, and how many other people must have this that don’t know about this? On top of it, doctors don’t accept that as a legitimate diagnosis, you know, in the same experience you had in terms of there’s nothing wrong, you may just have to accept it, or it’s you, Joel, you’re depressed or anxious, you need to do this. And then so I went down that rabbit hole. And what I realized is not just stress that impacts the HPA axis, it’s oxidative stress, meaning you’re creating free radicals in your body because your cells aren’t breathing effectively. And one of the main things that happen is you stimulate something called mast cells, which is an immune response. And then the mast cells when they d granulate. They produce histamine. So I bet when I review, Ben’s report, he’s gonna have major when I call on roads are on-ramps to his mast cell highway, and then he’s got some closed down off-ramps to his histamine highway. So he’s got all this traffic. And so I’m excited to do that. But it’s looking at HPA Axis adrenal health.   Ben Angel: So, I don’t doubt that for a second, because I know for me, it wasn’t just caffeine or the Ventolin medication that I know I have certain dietary triggers, that certainly affect me, even though that you know, they could be healthy for some person just like peanut is healthy for some people, but of someone else, it’s a life-threatening event. So I think it’s, you know, when it comes down to bio-individuality and biohacking our way to health, I think a food journal is always always a great step two, look at and look at, okay, what is my mood, like, after I eat food? I know, I can’t eat chocolate. For whatever reason, it triggers me, that triggers that exact response that you just explained. And I know if I have too much of that I will be moody, I will be angry out of the blue. It is bizarre, but at least I know, it’s one of my triggers that hey, I can have a tiny little bit, but I’ll have it on the weekend. instead. Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Yeah, I and food are a major challenge for histamine production. But stress just in itself when thinking about if someone cuts you off on the highway, or you almost collide with someone that will create a release of histamine, D granulating. Your mast cells are just from stress alone or being angered or irritated. So that’s where psychology comes into play too. And you might be thinking, I don’t get it. I’ve removed all the foods that I found I react to but yet I’m still having these challenges. Well, it goes to show you that there’s this whole reactivity to stress. So I guess maybe a little more sophisticated, is one of the things you mentioned is the importance of heart rate variability. And how important heart rate variability is to understand how things are implemented or impacted, once you do that. So why don’t you tell us about your experience with heart rate variability and then maybe if you want to we could talk about one of the companies we mentioned earlier that you’re a bit upset with because.   Ben Angel: I mean, I think our heart rate variability is a good metric for people to work off of. Originally when I was looking at it, I was using the aura ring. So I’m happy to dive straight into that. Because we have so many wearable devices that are coming out into the marketplace. And for those that don’t know aura ring is a wearable ring, you pop on your finger. The claims are tracked heart rate, your abilities, sleep stages, and ultimately produce a readiness score as to how ready you are to show activity for the day or whether you need to take a step back and rest and recover. What I found with following that company for the last five years, is that unfortunately there was a major gap in study research specifically with sleep, not necessarily heart rate variability, but there have one of the sleep studies have done well was in 2017. And then I think there was about a three or four-year gap before the next sleep study was done. And both of those sleep studies have conflicts of interest with either boards or advisors from the oral health part of the study or the study has been funded by the company itself. And I started speaking out against this about a year ago, and people kind of pushed back on me. But now people are starting to wake up a little bit, which is nice. But I think when we’re looking at any of these devices, whether it’s to track HRV or sleep, we just need to take a look, take a step back and understand these devices, there are so many different things we need to be aware of specifically with the studies, a lot of the studies are out of date because they’re done on the previous device, not the current device itself, which pays poses a major issue, especially if certain sensors have been updated on the device. And the study has been updated following that particular sensor. So when people are looking at these devices to track whatever we just need to understand, Okay, it’s good if you use it as a snapshot of health and go, Okay, this is just a general guide. But the dark side of sleep trackers is that we also have the no SIBO effect, which is the dark side of the placebo effect. And I was reading a study only the other week around when people with Gene research, when they get some of their panels done, sometimes their physiology changes by the results of the test that’s been conducted. And obviously, you can speak to that specifically. But we need to be careful of how much information we’re taking on from these devices, especially trackers that may not be accurate, depending on which device you’re using. So when it comes to any of that kind of information, it’s up to whoever’s providing that data does someone say, Hey, this is a general guide. There’s either limited research or this is the research, or here’s what we need to do next. And I think people need to be wary of that company such as ring health, which had a $110 million investment, I believe, was only just a year ago, their customer service has slipped, they’re not keeping up with the complaints, and people are having a lot of issues. If I was to recommend any health, wearable, I would suggest Fitbit, because they have a massive library of studies up on their website, it’s a separate dedicated website just to their studies. But I warn people, you will go down a rabbit hole and want to pull your hair out trying to keep up with this research. Because it’s impossible, anyone who claims that they have the most accurate sleep or wearable tracker, just I call BS immediately, because you’re gonna have to look at hundreds or 1000s of different studies that have been conducted right now. And that’s probably to get that off my chest. When it comes to HRV. Do you just want to be wary of where you’re getting that data from who is measuring that? What is the intention of the company behind it? Who is supporting those studies? And just not take it as gospel? But just as a general guide? Otherwise, it can negatively affect you psychologically?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, for sure. Yeah. And you know, it wouldn’t. It’s unfortunate, but that’s how almost all studies are whether it’s in the holistic world or it’s in the pharmaceutical world. And I think that’s something that is a real tragic tragedy because it’s motivated by thought big dollars, and it’s biased, and it’s skewed. And there’s no accountability, and that’s a whole other rabbit hole. But I’ve always been about transparency, Ben in terms of the pot, the public wants to see your flaws. They embrace that. And if you can say, hey, look, we’re doing the best we can. And this is something that we’ve funded because no one else is going to publicly do this. And we’ve done whatever, whatever instead of hiding behind it, and then after having to say oh, yeah, well, we funded it like just be transparent and let people know what’s going on.   Ben Angel: Yeah, I think my biggest concern right now is biohacking in the past couple of years has almost become the new breed of snake oil salesmen. So we justice, a lot of others promoting different supplements and you do a little bit of research and you find out okay, they’re a shareholder in the supplement. And suddenly they’re promoting that everyone has this brand new problem that we’ve never really heard about before and you need this. Yes. Finding. And that’s why I think it’s critical that someone speaks with someone such as yourself or a functional doctor, and sit down. Okay, is it an issue or not? Or is it just the next trend in this wave of media cycle that’s coming from the health industry itself? Not pharmaceutical, we have a mix of both. So I think we just need to be more conscious, in general, to come back to basics. What’s working for me? What’s not working for me? What do I need to be aware of? What are the intentions of some of these people are so in supplements and anything else behind it? And whenever I review, a supplement, or a wearable device, I always, always interview the people behind it. To find out the backstory, I look over their research or what research is available, and I test it for myself, and it may work for me, but it may not work for someone else. And like you said earlier, if they don’t have the foundation, right, then a lot of this stuff just isn’t gonna work for you. Because a lot of this other stuff is about optimization. It’s not about addressing the core issues that are sitting below the water level of what’s going on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, again, really great insight, I think that the real Biohack, which you alluded to is is fundamentally getting yourself healthy, and checking your gut function 70 to 80% of our immune systems, they’re eating healthy foods, and not expecting there to be Jack in the beanstalk approach of there’s this golden beanstalk with a pot of gold at the end, you can’t be lazy, my wife taught my kids, the lazy man works twice as hard, right? And you have to, you have to take accountability, it’s a paradigm shift. It’s and that you allude to in the book, it’s really bridging the gap to where you are to where you want to get to, and then being able, to bridge that gap by doing fundamental things and taking accountability and changing your life and making small habits. And as you start to get some momentum, then you’ll realize you’re human. And when you fall off the wagon sort of speak and you pay the price of feeling crappy, then you realize, okay, I’m not going to do that, again, I’m going to give myself grace, and I’m going to continue where I was doing. And that’s sort of the definition of hormesis is, is that you want to stimulate change, your body’s great at getting adjusted to what you’re doing that if you do it too long, it’s gonna get complacent, and you’re up. So sometimes cheating isn’t a bad thing, you’re teaching your body to be able to tolerate that. So it’s sort of coming to an end here, as far as you know, with people that are struggling. Someone that is having a really tough time mentally. What would you recommend for them, then? Because I know that’s a touchy issue or a very personal issue that you’ve experienced yourself? And I’m sure it’s part of your mission to help other bands that haven’t had that aha as yet. So what would you tell them given everything we’ve talked about today?   Ben Angel: Yeah, first of all, take the pressure off of yourself, because you can only push through with willpower for so long. We know brain chemicals get depleted through that chronic stress process, and it triggers inflammation. So the first thing would be to stop blaming yourself and assuming that it’s simply a weak mental attitude. Because that is the most simplistic and dangerous response that unfortunately comes out of the self-help field even though it’s not said outright, that is the unintended meaning behind a lot of stuff that’s going on with the hustle of today’s culture. So I would say to them, please get yourself to a functional doctor, to get all of your blood panels done as and speak to someone like yourself, of course, and just try and tease apart some of what’s going on with you. Looking at your diet and doing some simple things daily, incremental improvements build up over time, whether it could be okay, I need to adjust what I’m eating, I need to start introducing some healthier foods. What can I introduce this week? That’s better for me, what can I introduce next week and do it in incremental processes. But I think one of the biggest things that anyone could ever do is keep a food journal or a daily journal. Just to track Okay, yesterday, I had three cups of coffee today. I feel healthy, too. I wonder if there’s a connection there. Maybe I burnt myself out I overstimulated myself like Chris Loctite. I caused myself to get anxious and panicked. And you know, ask yourself Are you panicking about the task? Or the project or the event that’s actually in front of you? Or is it simply a result of having too much caffeine, which we know so many people do? Come back to the basics and stop beating yourself up daily? Because it’s beating yourself up isn’t gonna get you any better any faster?   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, it’s those are great, great words of wisdom. So as far as the name of our podcast is the truth about your health, and I think there are not a lot of truths about health that are being propagated by public health agencies, pharmaceutical industries, medical schools, even the Food and Farm Bill, in terms of what they’re promoting. And it’s a shame. So as far as what would be the major truth about health, that you realize now that maybe you didn’t realize back then when you were going through the journey?   Ben Angel: I think for me, is learning to listen to my own body and churning out what others trying to tell me. That’s the next major issue. I think that has been the biggest thing of all, it kind of took off. That relief from the pressure I’ve initially felt in the initial stages of researching the book of, we’ve got to try every single different thing known to man, but at the end of the day, just cause more stress, which made the situation worse. So doesn’t matter what the pharmaceutical industry is telling me. It doesn’t matter what the health industry is telling me right now. It’s like, is this working for me? Or is this not working for me? And after the over the last couple of years? I know what my triggers are. I know that if I’m flat or exhausted, I can think back to the last 24 hours 72 hours ago. All right. I hit something that I shouldn’t have thought was great at the time, but I’m paying a price for it. Don’t beat me up for thinking that I’m just weak right now. I just consume something and I’m reacting. Don’t overthink. So. And that’s probably the biggest thing to stop overthinking everything is very easy to do.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It is then also to know thyself, right? And yeah, we always call it listening to your little angel where you knew like you should have done something, but you didn’t listen to it. And then only to happen. Something happens where you should have I was thinking that but I didn’t do it. Just listen to it. And I think the great thing about as you start to get into the foundational fundamental things, that becomes clearer and more distinctive. And I guess the last thing in terms of tying it all together is the mission. How important was that and becoming unstoppable and understanding what you’re doing what’s the role of the purpose and the mission in biohacking and becoming unstoppable?   Ben Angel: Yeah, for me, it was because I’ve always written books since my late 20s. I wanted to go through this process, not just for myself to get myself back on track. But I wanted to share the dark side of the story through experiencing all of these challenges that whatever challenges people are going through right now, it’s normal and that every single person goes through it. I mean, I almost got banned from the US trying to research this book, we went to extraordinary lengths. And I think the thing that came out of this whole experience for me was, that life isn’t an experiment. You cannot control every single thing because the second you try and control it, things just fall off the rails and we’ve seen them in the past couple of years. It doesn’t matter what you try and do if things are gonna go in a certain direction, it will just fall that way. Sometimes we just have to accept it. So when I think about life not being an experiment, I think okay, just trust myself, trust the process. Just listen to my body, listen to my intuition and go from there. But the ultimate mission is to help as many people with depression, anxiety, and fatigue as possible and help them to realize they’re not mentally weak. There’s a combination, there’s multifaceted. And once you start to taste the pieces together, we can start to help as many people as possible.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. And it’s very empowering to know what it is and what you can be doing about it. And the body is incredibly forgiving. I always say that if you smoked for 50 years and you had these charred lungs, you stopped smoking, your body will produce a whole new set of issues and you’ll have a whole new set of lungs. So the book called The unstoppable 90-day plan to Biohack your mind and body for success. It’s the second edition. And, and that’s by Ben Angel, you can go to the website to be able to take the quiz and again, the name of the website.   Ben Angel: Ben, are you unstoppable.com?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Or you’re unstoppable.com Awesome. Well, listen, I want to thank you for sharing your time, your wisdom, and your mission to help other people. I think that’s what attracted me to learning about you and, and researching because we’re similar in wanting to help people get the truth and live the life that they’ve been meant to live. And I like the concept of democratization of health where we empower you to be able to take accountability and get your health back. So I appreciate all you do. Ben, I want to thank you so much for joining us today.   Ben Angel: It’s been my absolute pleasure. Thank you. Thank you To take Ben’s “Are you unstoppable quiz” click here If you are interested in working with me, click here The post How To Go From Fatigued To Unstoppable With Ben Angel appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition about the truth about your health podcast where we’re on a mission to expose the truth about your health to burn out men and women so that we can empower 100 million people to go from exhausted to energized. And I’m excited to talk to our guests. For Part Three, it’s Mr. Mojo himself, Dorian green out, and he’s on a mission for a lot of different things. But their goal is not just to sell a meter. It’s to spread keto news, information, resources, and understanding so people can make changes in their lives and allow them to live longer healthier lives. So Dorian, thank you so much for giving me your time once again.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Wow. Thank you very much, Dr. Rice. It’s really good to be here.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, yeah, well, listen, I love talking to you. We do have two additions before there. So we’ll post the links to those for people that are watching this. But I think it always starts with integrity. And I think that’s what’s so great about what you do is because it’s not just recommended and don’t hope don’t do the things for yourself. So I think it’d be good to maybe recap a little bit of your story on why you developed this type of lifestyle. And now can then we can transition into what’s new with keto Mojo.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, thank you. Yeah. But back in 2015, I was overweight, 207 pounds, I was on antidepressants. My job is just going into the toilet. I’m mucking everything up. And you know, I’m in this fog, but I didn’t know I was in the fog. Well, you know, if you’re in the fog, you don’t really know it until that lifts. And you can and you can see you just, you just, you’re fading out what you’re doing and then bounce between jobs. And a good friend of mine has said, you know, you’ve got to give up the white devil. So you’re going to get rid of that sugar out of your life and typical English class like I don’t do fad diets, you know, I’d seen my wife do every possible diet under the sun, cabbage soup diets and all of these other things and doing these challenges, and it was a continuous roller coaster for her and you know, I’m, I’m just going like, well, that that’s never working. Why would I do that? And then as I started reading up on the science of what a ketogenic diet is, I think I’m going to flip that word. I’m gonna say what a ketogenic lifestyle is. Because the deep that four-letter word of diet, I think, is an appalling word. As we started reading, and looking at the science and understanding how the metabolism works, and this is reading they’ve Volek and Phinney and a tear and Taubes and Westman. If you look at all of those different doctors over the period of time. The science just made sense. So I went on a well-regulated ketogenic lifestyle. And I was testing with an avid meter to it. So I knew the choices that I’m making were working right for me and my bio-individuality. I think this testing is sort of like a macro compass model. If you go into a new world, say I’m going to Italy or Thailand, think of the foods, Italy, Italian foods, or Thai foods. If you’re going somewhere new, you need a macro compass to guide you. The map is the roadmap are the foods that you’re eating, and the compass tells you if you’re going in the right direction. Now, if I follow the same route every day, and we become creatures of habit, then do I need a map or compass? That’s a question you should ask yourself down the line. But what happened was my weight dropped off, I lost a total of 47 pounds. And you know, I got this mental clarity, I got this energy, this you are the Vive that, you know, I felt like I was 24 again, and I could take on the world. And I came up with all antidepressants. And that was the genesis for starting the company. Because, you know, I looked at the strip, and I was like, why are these trips so expensive back then, in 2015, they were four to $5. And you’d have to hunt on the back ends of E bay and Amazon to get something that had been covertly shipped in from Australia. It was nuts. But, you know, I realized that you know, at that time, there were a lot of barriers to entry, not only a cost barrier but also an informational barrier. And so when we set up keto Mojo, it was the at the hopes that we could affect change, metabolic change throughout a population of people. And once you can do that once people change the way they eat the way that they shop, this could potentially have a market forcing function to fundamentally change agriculture globally. So this sounds a bit hubris. A lot of people look at me going like, Wait, hold on, where did you just go there? But when we look at holistic regenerative agriculture that can sequester carbon. This becomes a game-changer yet in America We subsidize corn, soy, and wheat. And we are subsidizing America the obesity epidemic, we should almost call it a pandemic now, that is killing 1000s, maybe millions 79,000 People will die this year of type two diabetes 79,000. I think that’s a terrible thing. And that’s just one NCD. I think if you look at all the NCDs could cost society about 30 trillion by 2030. And so this was like, how do we affect this change? And that’s what we kind of brought to the table with the launch of the company, keto Mojo,   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. And that’s why I was so intrigued with our prior conversations, it was more of a mission-driven, aha, it doesn’t have to be this way. And education and being Miss fed, and the information, and, and, and physically and metaphorically, that you bring up a couple of good things here in terms of the lifestyle versus the diet. And I think that’s if you can get into that as well because I think the bottom line is making sure that someone can produce clean fuel. And it doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re going to be full-on ketogenic eating, especially as they think, high fat or misinformation about what it is. And it’s more about lifestyle and controlling certain ratios of food and movement and, and getting healthy. And I think that’s why you’ve been able to continue your evolution is because it’s not just pricking your finger per se, or it’s not just eating higher fat. So maybe give us a little more information on your journey as to what is the difference between a ketogenic lifestyle and a ketogenic diet?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, I mean, that’s, that’s, that’s a really good question. That is, there are many different ketogenic diets, we can go from the carnivore to the, to the medical world have the full ones and the three ones, we can go to a modified Atkins diet, we can have an MCT style. And so you’ve got to realize that there’s a pendulum, a spectrum of that and, and even in our, in our tribe, with there’s a little bit of infection and frightening, like kinda was the right way to go. High proteins way to go, No, adequate fat is the way to go. And I’m like, I take a middle road. I’m like, what is going to keep it sustainable for me for a long period of time for a lifestyle? I know I have a carbohydrates prediction.   You know, for me, love a good cup of tea, typical Englishman got to have a cookie with your tea or a biscuit is as we would have said in England. And, you know, you know, my kryptonite was milk chocolate hobnobs, you know, and it says on the packet, one nibble, and you’re nobbled, and I’ll go, I only just have one cookie. And I have the one cookie and mixing now I’ve, I’ve eaten the entire packet in one sitting in two cups of tea in the afternoon. That’s me. So when I think of lifestyle is something that you can stick to for a long period. And in a sentence, just to kind of like keep it really easy. I think it’s adequate fat, moderate protein, lots of above-ground leafy vegetables. So why do I think that? So adequate fat is for where you are in your journey, if somebody is first starting, and you know, they’re 5060 100 pounds overweight. And then once they get into a state of fat burning, you can be in a slight deficit utilizing your body fat for energy, as well as some of the dietary fat there. So this idea of pushing fat and fat bombs might not necessarily be right for particular individualistic bio-individuality. So I like to think about what is adequate fat, moderate protein, the amount of protein that you need for your lifestyle. If you’re like Louise Wilson, or, or, you know, the carnivore doc, and you’re working out massively and heavily then yeah, you might want to have a much higher amount of protein for the turnover of that muscle mass that you’ve got, I mean, but look at me, I mean, I’m not exactly a muscle-bound individual. So the quantity of protein that I need is, is less. And that’s why I say moderate protein, usually, to me, it’s the point of satiety, it’s quite interesting. You know, you can have a chocolate cake and you’ll be able to eat the entire chocolate cake. I can have a good quality, pasteurized piece of meat, and I’ll get maybe three quarters for it and I’m already beginning to feel full, I’m getting that feedback and satiety, and so on. They go okay, I’ll leave that for maybe a breakfast snack in the morning with some eggs or something and I’ll be done and I push it away. Because you get that correct by feedback is, you know, I think Dr. Robert Cibus talks about having the biofeedback, the problem with an alcoholic is sometimes they don’t know when to stop because they’re not saying that they’re full. But if you ask that same individual to drink the water of the same continuous, especially as think about English people drinking pints of beer, if you think about water, you get to a point where like, I couldn’t possibly drink another pint of water, you get biofeedback. And the same thing happens with proteins and fats, you get the biofeedback satiety, but you don’t get that with carbohydrates, you get that short circuit. So adequate fat for where that person is joining moderate protein and lots of background leafy vegetables, what’s wrong with leafy vegetables, it’s that fine. Now there are some bits if we get into the nitty Gritties of oxalates, and stuff like that. But on the general, you know, that’s sort of like where I live and I do drink wine. My wife is actually a certified sommelier. So how do I keep my lifestyle going, whilst enjoying all there is to offer Gemma was just recently at low carb, USA, and spoke on how to choose a key, say keto in quotes here. So let me be very, very kind of careful how to choose a wine once you’re out at a restaurant, or somewhere or over a friend’s place where you can remain in ketosis. And again, it comes back to the person if you’re just starting one might not be right for you. Because you’re you run this, what’s the word, your metabolic flexibility hasn’t been developed? I can now have people go like, will this kick me out of ketosis as they eat a burrito or something or maybe have a beef bourguignon, and there’s a carrot in there, and there’s an onion in there, and there, and they’re going like, well, this kick kicked me out of ketosis. And I’m like, I don’t know, depends on where you are, and how long you’ve been doing this and what you’re seeing insulin sensitivity is. So this is the way that we look at it. So that, you know, now I know, we’re a global company, we’re in 31 countries right now. And we have when we get to have the luxury of traveling with the job. And we’re always in nutritional ketosis, even in places where I don’t even understand the menus. I’ve been in South Korea, and the island shows you for a ketogenic conference that was there, and even into Japan, and to China and to Taiwan. And those areas where it gets a bit funky to try and eat keto, but you learn after a while, and you don’t sweat the small stuff a little bit. And I think that’s the beauty of having the right map and compass.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you said lots of important things, the sustainability for sure, from a lifestyle point of view. And then on top of that, the stressing because the stressing is gonna produce cortisol as well. And that’s gonna drive up glucose. So what is cute like for those that may be very new to the scene, I’m sure you have a continuum of how to explain different concepts depending on where someone is with their understanding Dorian, what what is nutritional ketosis? So explain that to the listener?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah. Me to nutritional ketosis as defined by doctors, while the company in their seminal book, The Art and Science of low carbohydrate living is measured between 0.5 millimoles in blood, beta-hydroxybutyrate, roughly up to about almost meters measured to about eight millimoles. You know, people always worry about Bugaboo and ketoacidosis. What about that, like ketoacidosis is usually only in a type one diabetic, and it’s in 10 million moles plus and above, really, when we get to that, and I think that ketoacidosis should get a bit of a remake on its marketing name, it should be called glucose, ketoacidosis, because that happens in high glucose and high ketones. And usually, if you go over blood glucose of 214 milligrams per deciliter elaborate warning like to say check your ketones because you know, you shouldn’t be 240 I mean, I, I would be horrified if I ever saw that. I mean, my alarm set on my system is a very, I have a popover 120. That’ll give me I mean, usually, I’m in their 80s 90s 100, which is perfectly fine. So 0.5 is generally is like you’re now at the threshold of nutritional ketosis. Now, higher is not necessarily better. I don’t go chasing I don’t go chasing ketones Chase results. Because it depends on why you’re doing it. There are the weight loss people or the cancer people there are the neurological layers, multiple sclerosis and Parkinson’s and as the epilepsy community, each one of those is going to be a different part of that spectrum. And then that’s how you must approach it. So if we just look at weight loss, above 0.5, and above into the twos, absolutely excellent zone to be in, and it will change over time. Sometimes when first starting, your liver now produces lots of ketones, but as your mitochondria are ready to receive it, and that was with the Devala confetti studies, they show that it takes 12 weeks for a person to start to get fat adapted. But it also could take much longer than that, and your body can change over a longer period of time. I can give an anecdotal and have one, my wife Gemma, we both eat the same foods and drink the same similar types of wines. She was always very low on her ketones. 8030405 is when we first started, and I was getting indeed 1.1 to 1.7 like going around or fancy like a look at me, I got ketones. And she was different, you know, because of her age where she was being postmenopausal at that time. And it was only when she started working events with our some regionally did, the faster we will do one meal a day when we’re at a conference is a lot easier to work and focus on that one, and then go out for a great meal at night. Then with this, this Omad started to fundamentally change in her ketones started to come up but this was over a year and a half in. So it can fundamentally change over a long, long period of time.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think the bio-individuality is a verb right and learning what unique circumstances time windows activity levels, definitely going into and out of it. I guess the question I would have for you is doo. When you said it’s sort of the Bugaboo ketoacidosis Are you still finding ignorance or lack of awareness from traditional approach doctors that aren’t having it on their radar? You’re still seeing that?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Absolutely. I mean, metabolic therapies are those, if you think about it, it’s gone back to when William Banting wrote the letter on copyrights in the 1800s. But, you know, the average doctor does not receive metabolic education, they don’t receive this nutrient education in any way, shape, or form. And even on their continuing medical education, there’s, there’s nothing that is in there. And the number of schools that are teaching is very, very slim. And it’s not even done on that basis. And it’s not that much, and not much literature. I mean, a lot of times we’re in our echo chamber, and I think the challenge of the clinical community is to get out more, and to kind of like really start to talk about this a lot. And so the average Doctor probably has done his residency. And, you know, they’re thinking of their er days when they hear the word keto, and they haven’t changed it or switched it to see the real benefits that it can get. I mean, when you look at the Verta paper that when the two-year study, being able to reverse type two diabetes in I think was either 55 or 60% of cases, that’s reverse with a 91% reduction in exogenous insulin. That’s profound. Because the standard current of care isn’t, but if the American diabetic Association isn’t advocating for it, and if I still meet registered dieticians, who are on the old way of treating type two diabetes, it’s shocking, because there are outside political organizations that continue to put a lot of pressure. So that doesn’t change if I mean, kind of like, careful not going into into into landmines. But if you look at the work of what Belinda Fettke, did Garrett fair key on the on how they were they much maligned as doctors, but it came out of a vegan religious group. This starts to get a challenge when you’ve got such big money in agriculture in corn, soy, and wheat. What is their fundamental read wanting to change it? What happens is we see that in diets that it becomes eat less, move more. You can’t outrun a bad diet. It’s impossible. And if you take a look at the macro, this is the gravy if you like the data that the US government has if you look at all the foods that we’re eating, we’re eating my government plate, we are and we are exercising more. Why is it that the American military has an obesity problem eating the my government plate when they got drill sergeants on everybody’s ass? And if I’ve met pilots, military pilots, who are seriously concerned about losing their license, their livelihood, because they, they are following the traffic like the methodology of what their and their weights got so much that they’re having difficulty in getting into their flight suits, and some of them are resorting to having a nip and tuck, so they can keep going. There’s something fundamentally wrong with that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, Dorian, I changed the name of this podcast from the truth about your adrenal fix to the truth about your health. So it is aimed at knocking over some sacred cows. And I think, what’s the I don’t know the exact quote, but then as I guess, new science will come about as people die, right as the relics end up dying, and you have a new breed and a new generation that has an inherited the dogma. However, the problem is, is that, as you said, the funding and, and the watchdogs and, and all of the motivation from big pharma and big, big, big food and medical curriculum, I guess it is a slippery slope like you said, but at the same time, I guess what has been keto Mojo solution to not having to knock on the base of the castle wall and you know, continue to bang your head against it? What’s been sort of the mission or the business strategy that you guys are doing to get the word out, but knowing that certain anchors can only get you so far?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, I mean, knowledge is power. And the truth will out is what we believe in wholeheartedly. And if anybody wants to go over to visit our website, keto mojo.com, we built a massive website of information and how-to guides and infographics. We have our chef who’s created over 220 different recipes to show how engaging and delightful and delicious the food is built within those recipes as you can select as many recipes as you like. And say I want to cook for six people or 10 people or just two people. And you’ll be able to print out an easy, printable shopping list that you can take with you, we soon to be I think in the next week, we’ll have the ability that you can create your meal plans for a seven day or a 14 day or even a month. So can you can plan everything out. We’ve gone to our good friends Doug and Pam Devine, of low carb, USA, and we license every presentation from all of these amazing doctors and clinicians, and researchers. And we offer it for free. So if you want to do this massive, deep dive into each different disease state, it’s there for you for free, not a payload behind them. And we get about 2.8 million visitors to our website, especially over last year, because this is how you can affect metabolic change. Now, I was very disappointed two years ago, COVID started and we were looking at this and we realized those people who were dying, were those who had the comorbidities. And we had a moment there where everybody should have been talking about boosting their immune system. And how do we do the boosting of the immune system, we lower our glucose, we have great foods, we make sure we get good amounts of sleep, we increase our vitamin D and sunshine. And we work on Exercise and Health, we do the entire terrain around the individual and this, this should have been the conversation. And yet it dissolved into politics, and maths, and vaccines. And it was kind of like look at this, instead of looking at the root causes, the root causes of the NCDs will get to the point now where we’re getting I think we’re COVID we’re getting to endemic which is great. It’s going to be like a call, it’s going to be like a flu season, it’s going to come around. And people will have that first amount of immunity from having cause it caught it and pass through. And sadly, a lot of people have done it. But for those people who still have comorbidities, it’s going to keep coming around each year. And this is where we must fundamentally say take a look and say you’ve got to take control of your health because no one else is going to do it. You are the captain of your ship and ain’t no magic pill that’s going to come on out and say hey, take this look at type two diabetes. They’ve been living in the US magic pills for how long and we still have the same mortality rate that you get a type two diabetes diagnosis and you got 10 years to Anything is left of your life. That’s shocking to me. I mean, Stanford Graduate School of Business did a study. And this is what is the value of one year of life in law, every life is priceless. The calculated out $129,000 on one year average? Well, we just mentioned earlier, 79,000 people die in one year 79,000 times 129,000. I think we’re into the hundreds of millions probably into the trillions why that’s safe when you start doing the math. That’s the loss of value of human value. Not apart from the loss of the Father, or the mother, or the uncle. That to me is me know that we can change that. And we’ve known it for 100 years. There’s something wrong here that we fundamentally can’t address. And that’s why when you go and give the information that is free through what we do on our website, you empower the people to change it themselves. And make it a lifestyle. That becomes fun. I eat out a huge last night I went out for an Indian people go like I went out for an interview. Yeah, I went out for an hour I had a chicken tikka because that’s the cream sauce. I had from a say Mother, I think it was a man lighter was the other one that we had. Instead of rice, I had broccoli and spinach. And they know to do that broccoli and spinach. We had a lamb tandoori lamb that was with him. And I had a bottle of Alexander Valley, brute Natcher.   Bubbles with it locally made bubbles. The bubbles were roughly about 11% Alcohol. And I knew that from because it was a brute net shirt. The way that the champagne golds go, although this is a domestic one. But they still hold to those rules a little bit that we knew we had the glucoses under one roughly 1.2 grams per deciliter. So we knew that we had a great Indian meal. I do it on a regular basis. This is how you create a lifestyle and enjoy the fun of things instead of having a diet.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I love it. I especially empowering people with knowledge and giving them the information that’s readily available that can really give them the tools, right I mean, ultimately it works. There’s no debate of the validity of what it’s going to do to change your morbidity and your energy and your quality of life. So transitioning to be what’s behind you with my my my mojo health. I’m excited to talk to you about that. One of the Segways I’d like to talk to you about though for me specifically, but in general, you talk about the glucose ketone index. And I wanted to get your insight on that where you have some really nice educational infographics on your site. And I believe the 10 to one glucose ketone index is is really what we’re looking for, depending on like you said earlier, is it for neurological concerns, cancer concerns, weight loss concern, so forth and so on. But that allows with I’ve been seeing myself the ability to be a little on the higher side of the glucose level if you’re getting below 10 When you have some ketone. So if you can explain that to people, what is the glucose ketone index, and not necessarily look at it as unsuccessful if maybe you are writing a little bit higher on that first marker on the glucose markers, maybe explain that. And then we can transition into what you’re developing and how your individuality will allow us to determine all of that stuff going forward?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, but a super question. So the Genesis the glucose ketone index was Professor Thomas Siegfried of Boston College, and he was looking at cancer as being a metabolic disease and in his research, and he was one that kind of like, understood that you know, all Dr. Otto Warburg was the first person who put out that, that cancer is feeding off of glucose that has been fermented foods going through fermentation in an anaerobic environment with it within the cell. And so if you can obviously suppress the glucose down and increase the ketones up if there’s less fuel, there’s food for cancer to eat, then potentially you could begin to starve cancer and you can necrotizing it and get clear on modules that could allow staff knows maybe a conventional standard of care or modified standard of care, maybe less chemotherapy, less radiology and maybe you can do it all by using nutrients to be give the persons that are boosted their immunity. So this is what he kind of came out and realize that that became very important to this came out of the cancer world. But at that stage, there wasn’t a meter that would be able to calculate it, there wasn’t a software system. And we came up with the first ability to connect it to an app so that we’re doing glucose and ketones of it will calculate your TKI all at once before, you’d have to be doing it yourself. And what that is, is you take your glucose measurement in the European standard, which is millimoles. It’s only America and a few other countries that measure milligrams per deciliter. So if you’re out there and want to do it yourself, take milligrams per deciliter divided by roughly 18. And that will give you millimoles and divide that by your ketones. You can do that if you really want or you can just use our app and it will do it all for you. Or you can go to our website. And we have a GK AI calculator. So it came out of cancer. But now we’re seeing this being applied in other disease states as in weight loss. And it’s kind of like a much smoother line, if you will, as an indicator. When I look at it, I generally like to do my GK AI, or I tag my readings by my morning reading about an hour after waking. Because I think that’s a little bit more like that fasted measurement, I like that if you’re doing it after like food, you can have a little bit of noise brought into that reading because of the food, you’ll see that you’re there. Even if you’re eating low carb, in my habits, you know, I think of a low carb meal as having less than a 30 point 30 milligram per deciliter spike of about 1.7 millimoles. I don’t want to go over that. And I know I’m personally eating more carbs than I would want. And that push-ups 13 milligrams per deciliter can affect your reading. So I definitely think that that morning one is a good one. And the other one is sort of like the one the my just before my evening meal, especially if I’m doing mad that kind of like gives another idea. So there are also some different schools of thought is like when to test is the morning the right one? Or is just before your evening meal, the right one, you know in the morning, okay, that’s faster. That’s overnight? Well, we would hope that you will be in ketosis about but remember, we’re ketones always very low in the morning and get more as they go up. But during the day, you could have more things that you could potentially eat, that could cause you to pop out. So there are some other clinicians who think no, maybe just before the evening meal is important. And if you’re like me, I sell out, test and learn yourself, learn your route, learn your way to work. And then once you kind of look got that if you’re getting the same results every single time do you need to continue to test for that particular thing? And the answer is no. If you and I have done our job correctly, ideally, they don’t need to test they learn what they’re doing. And they’re having a fantastic healthy, enjoyable lifestyle. That to me is like the job done.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, absolutely. That’s a great explanation as far as. So also, actually, Joe.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: let’s come back. So I realized there’s a bit of a cover on it. So if we take a look at the scale of this one, for cancer, the holy grail is to get under one. It’s really hard to get there. That’s, that’s having super low glucose and very high ketones. A high therapeutic zone is maybe 123. If you’re getting in that zone, absolutely fantastic. From about three to six, you are in like a deep state of nutrient ketosis, six to nine, you’re in sort of like nutrient, ketosis. And so using that scale, again, it could come back to why are you doing it. And you know, that lower number is not necessarily better unless you have a specific reason behind it to be trying to target that. Maybe doing cancer treatment, maybe doing multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer’s, or Parkinson’s, and maybe interesting to see how it would work. In psychology. We’re working with the University of Edinburgh, hopefully, on a bipolar study that they’ll be doing, we should be very exciting. We’ve already seen this stuff. Dr. Chris Palmer has done schizophrenia. So I think here that psychology makes it better because I came off my antidepressants when I was between 1.1 and 1.7. So I like that. Anyway, sorry. I digress a little sorry.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, no, I was gonna ask you, where are you now? Where do you tend to hover with on a real-time average for what you do and what you like and can be between 1.1 and 1.7?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: When I’ve when I’m traveling, especially at the conference is when I’m introducing longer days of being on my feet and fasting during the day, I might pop into the TOS, I sometimes find altitude plays a game when, especially when I’ve come off planes, which is kind of like interesting on that one there. And then, if I’ve been a little bit lacks, or if I’m unsure of stuff, you know, I will, I’ll down maybe fin 0.5 and 0.5 and the ones and that’s usually wind-induced, I have to be honest with that one, where we’re traveling, and we might not be able to find the right wines that we would want to have with our meal. And, you know, there’s no truth in labeling and wine. And this is, you know, I would love to see truce in labor, I would love to see a carbohydrate RS label residual sugar haven’t been in the wine industry for so long myself. That’s what we would like to see. So, but generally, it’s very, very, very rare for me to be out of ketosis. It takes a lot of days.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. So I like to see the truth in labels beyond just wines, right? I mean, in all in all labels. But with that being said, so you’re talking about glucose ketone index, are you talking about spitting out ketones when you’re talking about where you reside now?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, normally, I’d say sorry, good. Great. I said G on my GK I, I’m usually between about a 2.5 and a 4.5. On my personal GK I that I run up by running out, okay.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, gotcha. And again, for those, go ahead, yep. Keep going, please.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, and that’s, you know, that’s when I’m looking at the GK I value. But then when you sort of like, look at glucose, I look at glucose is what I’m eating. I’m working on it. That’s why ketones are up between 1.9 and 1.7. A little bit like that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I think it’s a good lesson for people that are learning this lifestyle that when you are testing, whether it’s the first thing in the morning, when or you’re testing before your meal, you do want to learn by yourself, and you want to know what foods trigger more of a spike of your glucose? What are your baselines? What are the correlations between what you do daily? And how do you feel and the stressors that you have? And how does that impact when you divide your glucose when you convert it to the units that the ketones are in? And that would be your glucose ketone index, how does that get impacted? And so forth, and so on. So I think it’s a really good point for you to have to learn to understand what you need to do. And as you said, with Gemma, you will evolve, as you start to fine-tune in it’s like Zen in the art of, you know, Kido balance, right? So as far as now you have your tools. So what’s the genesis behind or the goal behind my mojo health? And what you’re doing with that now that we just kind of talked about knowing thyself?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, well, the first thing, obviously, we did was we built an app that connects from your meter just on a standalone basis to your phone so that you could look at your data, it could graph that out, you could have the ability to target or to iterate notes, but that resided on your phone. But if we look about trying to have a greater metabolic change throughout a larger population, you know, it’s sometimes it’s hard for an individual to change themselves, and they need the help of their coaches and their clinicians and their doctors. And because it becomes about accountability, and sometimes not everybody has the right amount of accountability. I certainly know that I didn’t, you know, I was successful, because my wife chose to do it with me at the same time. So we both held each other to be accountable. And so what we wanted to create was a mess was how can we do this in real-time, you can kind of like see over my shoulder a little bit, I have a team where you can see what your latest measurement is. And then you can also see your timing ranges. So we can look at this over different data periods. So it could be seven days could be the day, seven days, 28 days, three months, or even a year. And now you can set your own time and range goals that are right for you. Or a clinician or doctor could set it for the whole population that they’re trying to work with. And they can actually see exactly what’s going on. And then you obviously can see the graphs of glucose and ketones and GK I automatically calculated out if the measurements were done at the same time. And so now we have a dashboard for the user. But we’ve taken it one step forward and that hopefully will be released next week, is you can connect into Apple HealthKit to know if you’re utilizing Apple healthcare and you might be taking readings from your protein Your fats, your carbohydrates, maybe from chronometer, or you’re tracking it in Apple healthcare, or maybe from carb manager or a neutral sensor, all these other things, and you’re putting in there, now you can pull them into your dashboard and see it at the same time. And the clinician, doctor, or coach can do exactly the same thing. And now you have a continuous remote care option for somebody. And we made it free. And you don’t even have to use my meter, you can manually put this information in, this is the most crate My wife thinks I’m nuts going like, why should we do that way like that. And I say this because if we’re going to affect metabolic change, we have must stop putting the paywalls in front of it. You know, our original business plan was to test three times a day for less than the cost of a latte. Well, that’s okay for America might be okay for Europe. But it might not be the right price point for Indonesia or Pakistan or, or India. That’s where we want to try and see change on a global scale and put it into multiple languages. And are my world your health platform as a secure HIPAA compliant double encrypted Health Cloud? And not only can you connect to other apps, like we’ve already mentioned, chronometer, and color manager, but you can also connect into heads up health nutritious sent my fasting tracker, those apps, but we’ve also designed it now that it will actually connect to other large hospital EHR systems. And to most of the people listening, they probably won’t under understand the names of epic and servo and elation, and validity and all these things that these hospital systems, but it’s my goal within the next 3060 days that we will have 70% of the hospitals will have the ability in real-time to see glucose and ketone data if they want.   Dr. Joel Rosen: If they want, what do you feel about? Yeah, sorry, I didn’t mean to come in to get in there. Yeah.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: If they want, but this is the point of when you got to think like, okay, that’s one arm of what we do. But we need to educate the doctors. And then that’s where Jim and I have, we have our Kidney Foundation. It’s a 501 C three, public charity. And through the foundation, we help fund clinical trials and studies, and education into the efficacy and use of ketogenic therapies for the benefit of humankind. We’ve been able to help give seed money to the society of metabolic health practitioners, which is a group of doctors whose mission is to teach other doctors what a concept is. We’ve been able to help the key to life projects in Europe, who’ve already started up an online educational system. And then we’re looking to have one of the first schools to teach ketogenic therapies in bricks and mortar and bring patient cohorts in at the same time, which I think is really exciting. And this is the challenge because if you take a look at the average registered dietician, I was checked to speak with Jessica Ernst rd, who’s now a clinical educator, I asked her is like, well, how many patients were you roughly dealing with? She was about 135. Okay, that’s 135. Now there might be some clinicians and doctors who might be where we’re at with a patient population of maybe 500. Here’s the challenge. It’s 38 million people who are type two diabetic 68 million people who are pre-diabetic. If you look at say, 135 people and you look at the number, of coaches and clinicians and ideas with we need an army, we need 900,000, or maybe a million people to help deal with one disease state. And that, to me, is the challenge. So this is why we built my mojo house was like we’re gonna remove the payables you don’t have to go and build a software system design a software system, here it is, and we’ve invested significant dollars to do it. And if you look at the Hallberg paper, she spoke at the ketogenic symposium that was just held in late October, in Brighton in the United Kingdom, I was there and Sarah Hallberg of Verta health showed the paper on what continuous remote care looks like, where you’ve got data feeding in real-time. And you have your clinicians and doctors working in real-time. You have resources as we have of how-tos and guides and recipes and like that which they can use, you have a community where they can work together and that can be in Facebook groups that can be in closed groups. And when you look at having all of these together, Berta health achieved an industry-leading standard of 74% compliance. And on top of this real context in the epilepsy world, we had been doing this for over 40 years, and he achieved roughly 45% compliance. But it was the way that they did the remote care the way that they did the behavioral change. Now imagine if we can then apply that and get better. That’s their first go. And if we go over to the incident, that’s 74% compliance. And roughly 40% of people don’t even take their medications. So they did better than somebody taking a pill. And that’s, and if you can do that, and one disease state, if we can do it for all these others, that’s a profound change to society.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s exciting times and makes me think of two things. The first one is as you mentioned, and we talked about earlier, the difference between the ketogenic lifestyle and the ketogenic diet. I almost feel like saying this is a ketogenic lifestyle is also somewhat limiting the, I guess, the broadness of what you’re actually doing, because it’s not just a ketogenic lifestyle, it really is metabolic flexibility. It’s knowledge and power, it’s controlling your glucose, it’s being able to produce ketones, but that’s not it, just to me seems that it’s it goes much bigger than a ketogenic lifestyle. The other thing I would think of is, what kind of domino effects do you think it would have besides the, I guess, the beneficial effects of doing this in terms of, Okay, now we’re able to have the compliance, we’re able to have these outcomes. But that also impacts is a domino effect. And there’s almost like a whack-a-mole effect, that also challenges the status quo. And it also puts a lot of pressure and exposes a lot of companies that make gazillions of dollars when things aren’t getting better. What kind of domino effect do you think there’s going to have?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, when I spoke at low carb, USA, I did a CME presentation on the benefits of glucose and ketone testing for patient practitioners and society. So let’s just kind of touch on the societal. In the European Union, where we have a single-payer health care system, where you get universal health care, it’s though these healthcare systems are getting stretched to quite a large limit. And that stretch causes for those countries to have very high taxes 21 22% V, A T, quite a high taxation that is graded on the individual for their own personal income tax, then high taxation on alcohol and on cigarettes in a punitive way, and obviously, on gasoline. And so there’s a massive amount of taxation because they’ve got to take care of the health care of the population. What if you could reduce the burden, or let’s just use type two diabetes because this is the easy one where all the data is type two diabetes costs Americans $320 billion a year. And we know we could reverse that using the virtual model in 50 to 60% of cases, what we’ve we just saved $180 billion here. Now we hear the American diabetic Association, we had Tracy Brown, when she was there, go up to Congress and plead with Congress saying we’ve got to lower the cost of insulin for all type two diabetics. We can do that in under 30 days by 91%. By following a well-regulated ketogenic diet, again, we got to take a look at the root cause. So I don’t think the price of insulin is really an issue. You know, obviously for BioRad, maker of insulin, which happens to be the American diabetic association is the number one sponsor. Well, funny that I’ll tell you a little anecdote. I did the tour to cure ride we took a team under Verta health at risk riders, we put them through onto a well regulated ketogenic diet. We were the number one sponsor, and fundraising we raised over $48,000. I got brought in my good friends from F-bombs, and from energy bits and for keto logics, and we showed them a whole group of new providers that they could perhaps get sponsorship money from, and we’ve reversed reverse diabetes and that person had been following the APA guidelines for 25 years. We reversed it. They never invited us back.   They never invite us back. In fact, when I mentioned to some people, it is possible that Verta health has shown that you can reverse the effects of type two diabetes with a well regular ketogenic diet. They came over and said you cannot say that because they’d had a complaint from BioRad. But the other sponsor at that event, the local place down the road was Jelly Belly, maker of glucose, candy, pills, insulin, and candy. And that was the American diabetic association. So when you can take a look at what I think this can change, and I mentioned about the costs of that they can we can reduce that down for a single-payer system. But imagine if you are somebody who’s running a healthcare system in America, maybe like a united, maybe an Aetna, maybe, and it’s a for-profit basis, what if you could realize that you can make people healthier, yet still maintain the premiums, then you would make more of a margin spread? Yet, the way that our healthcare system is better, and let’s just change that word, our sick-care system is set up is payment for people being sick, and not payment for people to be healthy in a population. And that we need to kind of like take a look only when an insurance provider says I want to make the margin spread, and starts to take a look at what’s going on in that healthcare wait and see the difference.   We’re already seeing car insurance companies would have telemetrics to go and lower the premiums on an individual. What if there was a way that we could have health metrics that could lower our cost of health care? Why should I have to because I’m taking care of myself have the burden of my health care cost based upon someone else who’s not perhaps now I know the load weighting it through society, what perhaps brings it down because when I go visit my doctor, now it looks at all the blood and goes, I was fantastic, mate. Come back and see me next year unless you need to see me before I see my dentist more than I see my doctor. And it never used to be that. So that could be a fundamental change that we could see in the cost of health care. Now if we’re all shopping the outer aisle, what happens if we can sell now to say hold on we need good if we got the good datasets, we need good pasteurize meats, good, organically grown vegetables, and the like and these animal husbandries to be accessible and we can actually sequester carbon, we can change how we farm and in fact, we can change the farm bill is a boring piece of legislation where we are subsidizing the obesity and death in America needs to fundamentally change. And I know that sounds lofty, but we can do it one person at a time everybody who goes low carb. That’s how a revolution happens. One person at a time. And when I know that I’ve got 2.8 million people visiting our website that gives Gemma and me, you know, the biggest joy because you know, I don’t have kids and I have children. So what is my legacy given beaten, I made a buck or made a difference. And I think that I think that the latter is far more. I think that gives you joy and motivation in life. It gives you that gratitude that you were fortunate enough to be able to affect the change. And people think fortunate enough. I came to America with $750 in a backpack, and America has allowed me to do this. There is an American dream there is the ability to affect change. And that to me is kind of like why I think that our ability to give back to our society becomes far more important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, what a journey in terms of I would imagine this, looking at this strip and thinking, why are they charging so much for I would like to think you had scanned out to think I’d be changing the Farm Bill. But I got to think that that may have not been on the top of my mind at the time. Right?   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Not initially, no, it’s only as you get into it, and you understand how the ecosystem works a little bit and have the struggles. I mean, Miriam Kalamoon said, No, it’s going to be a bottom-up and a top-down approach. And eventually, you know, these two little areas will make the connection and we’ve already done it just a little bit. We’re seeing the doctors make the connections with the consumers. I mean, if you hear Dr. Address’s answer of the diet doctor when he talks about the genesis of the journey he learned from his patients, and he was seeing the way that he was doing was not making any change. Yes, Emily going the other way affected change. I think that becomes more important and the power of a person’s pocketbook is massive and massive. It’s the biggest voting thing that you could ever do is when you vote with your wallet because American Capitalism is there. And we can see it out work, I think who was it that Marxist and sold his primal food brands to? Was it Kraft or Nabisco or something like that for 200 million? Those big companies are looking, they see it, and they will understand. And that’s how you get it to get the change when we get the E-commerce to come on into place. I think we’re in an exciting time right now.   Dr. Joel Rosen: it is I have to correct you, though, because I asked you earlier about if it was just a matter of information, and it’s not I mean, you’re doing so much more than information, you’re empowering, and you’re, you’re data tracking, and you’re validating and you’re impacting change, and you’re actually ahead of the curve and, and doing what you can to ultimately have other people take notice. So it’s really exciting. And I’m excited for what the future holds for everything that you’re doing.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah, I mean, one of our visions for the future. It’s anything’s possible with time and money, but with our foundation, you know, I, you know, I don’t know, if any people in the Keto food industry is listening on him, which I feel sure they do, because you have such an influential voice is, you know, I look at having something that maybe it’s 1%, or 5%, for science, and then what we do is, you know, we build it up, right now, we only got about just about over $600,000 in the, in the endowment. But our guys, if we can build up the amount of money that we have, in the foundation, we can then be able to fund more clinical trials and studies. You know, if you look at the work of what Nina Ty Schultz is trying to do with the nutrition coalition to try and affect it, it’s going to be evidence-based, but we need an avalanche of evidence. I know that would kill Mojo, tweak your mojo in our foundation, we’re working on it with about 20 different clinical trials, they got kind of like put it got a little bit put on hold during COVID Because of how to do the in-person intakes and stuff like that. But then now they’re all gearing back up again and coming roaring on in. And I think as we have more science as we have more evidence backs, and let’s be very clear that the ketogenic diet is one of the most well researched ketogenic dietary formats that are out there. It’s not like, Oh, this is something super new. I mean, it’s been going on for 100 years. I think this is how we will eventually affect change, that it’ll come out or be evidence, but it might be one small country that might choose to suggest low carb and it’ll start on a disease state first, and then it will kind of like move out from there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s it is exciting times but yet, you know like you said, you have the still the naysayers of the ketogenic diet. So it’s, it is sort of that one ship one seashell at a time or one starfish at a time, right. So one of the things that I changed Dorian is I would ask in the past, what you wish you would have done differently knowing what you know now, but because this is called the truth about your health. What truth about health that you wish you may have known earlier in your, in your journey that you’ve laid was sort of like an aha, like a sacred cow that you were, you were told and just to accept, or just something that’s a fallacy, or maybe the opposite of what you would have been told, but does anything sort of pop out? I mean, I’m sure so many things do but in terms of something that you thought was just for, for, like, just an acceptance or a given, and now you kind of know or you’ve known over the years that that’s almost exactly opposite to what you teach people.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: You know, I grew up in England, it’s sort of like toughed it out where you go stiff upper lip kind of like stuff. And it wasn’t much on food. And self-care becomes really important in Europe, they expect the government to do it. And in maybe in the Americas, they say we should eat this way and that that’ll be it. But self-care becomes really important. I went keto I was successful, I lost weight, and then they started the company. And you know, the stress of running a company even the killer company, when you think all eyes like no, you’re living it to lead it. But you forget how much that stress that lack of sleep can have a profound effect on an individual and now I dropped off the weight and then my weight came back up. There’s only really recently as a company got more stable. That I was like, hold on, look at me. That’s what’s going on. I’m the Keto guy and I’m coming back up to where it was before this is not right and what’s wrong and if you kind of like start taking a look back, the things that I was doing wrong was not doing the self-care, it’s not doing the I was not reducing down the stress in my life. And I was pushing personally too much fat for me, I was having too much heavy cream in my teeth is a waste of calories. So I removed that one aspect, and then my weight started dropping about, I made sure that I added more sleep into my lifestyle in the days of getting up at 530. Every single morning, working on the European with the European coders working with the East Coast accounting team, starting on at 9 am with the Pacific team 530 working over with Asia up until seven and 10 o’clock at night and repeating now, six days a week. You can’t do that as an individual, it’s really hard to know and I take it with another lens, when I look at any sort of like a professional who’s trying to do that, you got to kinda like find a way to remove that stress out of it. And it might be very hard for a young mother with a young family. How do we do these pieces because this becomes more important? And everyone goes like I can functional four hours of sleep a night and like, look at me and I’m like, dude, let’s look at you when you’re in your 50s and your 60s. It’s about healthspan. And we have a very limited time on this earth. And he seems to be accelerated as I get older. You know, I think those lazy days when I was a teenager now it’s like, wow, you know, I have we achieved enough in the day. But that self-care is what it likes. Kido is just one piece of measuring the data is just one bit in that bucket of what are you removing the toxins that can be in your life, I live in an agricultural zone. And you know, you always wonder out What Are They Spraying with? How much Roundup is there? Where is there mold that is within your house, or you’ve got toxic products that are causing if you’ve got off-gassing that’s going on, if that that can change your epigenetics Kido obviously, eating good foods can change the different areas, making sure you’ve got the vitamin D in the sunshine, and you’re getting the sleep, and you’re bringing in that meditative and community. For those I mean, I’m an atheist, but I also understand the value of community that comes from the church, or, or a different community and tribe that well being and that that social aspect. And I think through COVID, we lost the social aspect, quite greatly. And I think that from that we’re gonna see more mental health issues come out. And I think we can fundamentally change as well. I’m excited about the bipolar study, that that we’re working on with the University of Edinburgh, and there are some other areas of ADHD and mental health that can be done because this is a massive thing. Migraines were to the worker and Dr. Angela Stanton is doing with migraines. I didn’t realize that 15% of the world suffered from migraines. debilitating. So this is kind of like a cool area to be in. And I think because you coming back to it, those were the areas that that self-care, getting the extra amount of sleep, reducing down the stress. Those two, that’s my personal anecdote, those are the things that were the biggest for me that no, didn’t get it right the first time around. I’m trying to work on it and getting it right the second time around.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s great. It just shows you that health is a verb and its bio-individuality. But at the end of the day, there are common themes that apply to everyone and self-care is one of them. I would even say that glucose ketone index of less than nine to you know, nine to one for any condition. If you know neuroinflammation, for any condition is the way to go. But had you had my mojo health app, you would have been seeing that your self-care or the data or the metrics were showing you Hey, even though you’re doing this or that, you know, you got now an objective sign. That doesn’t make sense, hey, I’m, I’m eating this way or that way it shouldn’t be doing this. But now all of a sudden you think oh, there’s a three-dimensional world where I’m up in the morning before the sun comes up. I’m up at night after the sun goes down. And I’m doing burning the candle at both ends. And sometimes we forget about that and people want to know what the best supplement is or what the best diet is. And they forget about the glue that ultimately is what runs the show? And it’s the software that causes the hardware to drop to crash, basically.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: Yeah. I mean, you know, I look at my mojo house and I think about my early days in 2015. Yeah, I cracked my macros for the first 30 to 60 days. And I was just writing in on the pen and piece of paper that hadn’t heard of like these other apps at that stage that could do it. But if you think about that, that was me learning myself. Some so many people don’t even know what the differences between the comp protein and the fat are. There are people in food deserts who don’t understand, this challenge. So for me, I like it now that there are so many advantages, free tools to learn yourself. That’s what you’re doing that that that first 90 days of behavioral change is so important. Why did they why does the military send their new recruits to boot camp. It’s because they’re trying to do a behavioral change. They’re trying to set them up for the discipline that will stand them forward for the rest of their lives. And this is what we have to do for ourselves. Now, hopefully, we don’t have to do it with a drill sergeant on our backs. But we do have to be needed, kept accountable. And that’s kind of what my mojo health project is being about, is giving the tools, the resources, the clinicians, and connecting them all, so that they can work together in harmony to affect the change. And I think it’s exciting. I think the areas that we are going to now see low carb ketogenic lifestyles go into help from the polycystic ovarian syndrome. From looking at, as we’ve mentioned, for multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer’s, and Parkinson’s, to psychological. Type two diabetes, reversal, hypertension, and all the metabolic syndromes that you have out there and the cancers. This is great, but there’s only an adjunct in that world, and you have to look at the whole terrain around it. Because if you move one big way, 1% here, 2% there 5% Here 3%, eventually, you get to that tipping point. And that tipping point, that’s where the difference helps. But to me fundamentally, it’s really hard to correct when damage is done. And you know, we’ve got to go upstream before and get that preventative aspect in it. We need for the parents to be able to look at the next to be teaching the next generation not to make the mistakes that we made because we got indoctrinated by Ancel Keys and Earl Butz in the 70s. And we’re living on poor science because of that, and marketing because of that by food industries. Once we start changing the children, the next-gen. And then you know, you look at training the next a lot of doctors and clinicians and researchers in nutrition. I think that’s gonna but the fact that it’s going to take generational change. cray-cray, but what happens when the first astronaut becomes keto? Have you thought about that? I mean, I’m into rockets. It’s a little side by here, I’m like, follow everything that happens with the Falcon nine and the new Star rocket, but also look at the work that Dr. Dominic D’Agostino has done. And if we know that one calorie of one gram of fat gives you nearly nine kilocalories of energy, and one gram of carbohydrate gives you nearly 4.5. Out. If we think of mass to orbit, it better be for somebody to be ketogenic. If you think about a long-duration mission and maybe going to Mars or the stars, we could be it would be keto is the way to go. Because that protects the brain from seizures. I think that would be kind of like really interesting, because then that might inspire the next generation, of astronauts or something. And like, what if we haven’t seen those studies done in space? But they have seen it when? Yes, we did the NEEMO, which is the analog to space for a long duration. And I think that is kind of interesting, because that’s like, what is the next generation? You know, how do we know how to make fat that way? And then it’s like it comes out from that part. So I’ve personally super biased to being keto, I think it’s our default state. If you look back on ancestral history for the last 2.5 million years, where we picked seeds. No, we were taking down the elk and using the proteins and fats, and we were ketogenic. And this is what this is how our brains got so big. This is the way that we’re supposed to be. So to me, that’s my world.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, awesome information. I appreciate your time and dedication and actually your contribution. So really excited and I always keep the invitation open because I can guarantee every time I talk to you next there’ll be some new exciting information. The next frontier. So thank you so much Dorian for being there. I’ll leave links to how to be able to get access to all the things that you’ve talked about and also they can just go to the website as well. So thank you so much, Dorian, for your time and I wish you and Gemma nothing but a healthy happy future and blessings all around.   Mr. Dorian Greenow: He said much appreciated. Thank you To order your own ketomojo, with a nice discount, go here The post Winner Ketogenic Lifestyle Vs Low Carb Diet. Which One Is Better? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

    Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health, where we’re on a mission to expose, expose the truth about your health to burn out men and women so that we can empower 100 million people to go from exhausted to energized and I’m excited for our next guests. Clive Burski. I found out about him many, many years ago when he used to have a radio show with Dr. Marshall. And I’ve used a lot of Clive’s products over the years got a little bit away from it, and I thought it just kind of resonated right back into it. So Clive founded Immuno logics because of his life lifelong personal experiences. At age 21, he had reconstructive knee surgery that started forming when he was only five years old. And in those days, doctors didn’t understand kidney stones that caused mineral deficiency from a diet loaded with Animal and Dairy products. And then at 28, he was diagnosed with testicular cancer. And that resulted in the extraction of his right testicle, his right adrenal gland, and 80 lymph nodes from under the arm down to the pubic bone. To get his adrenal glands, they sought out a rib, it took three and a half months for them, for him to walk after that. And then nine and a half hours of anesthesia coupled with the missing adrenal glands, and a testicle left him in a very debilitated chronic fatigue state for six years. And doctors told him that there was nothing that they could do. And this is how he’s going to have to end up with the rest of his life. But in 1991, he met a biochemist that understood enough about physiology and nutrition. And it enabled him to be able to have the normal working function to be able to work and drive and talk and two hours a week of proper nutrition and diet modification was what he did. And then it’s been 26 years since then. And he’s excited because he now has dedicated his life to helping support people in the same situation. So Clive, thank you so much for being here. That’s quite a story.   Clive Buirski: I’m excited to be with you, Dr. Rosen. And thank you very much. I’m looking forward to having this visit. Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so you know, it’s exciting because ultimately, a lot of the listeners can identify with that, especially not necessarily having their, their testicle or they’re especially for the woman they want to identify with that. But, you know, being told that there’s nothing that they can do. Not putting all the puzzle pieces together. And this is just how you’re going to have to live your life. And that’s why we call this show the truth about your health. So maybe why don’t we go into the struggles that you had? Not that we want to get into them. But what was the pivotal point that made you decide, hey, like, I’m like, not going to accept what they’ve told me? And I’m going to look for other solutions.   Clive Buirski: It’s a great question. Because it did take six years, for me to realize that there was a different way out of the problem that I was facing, which was the debilitation of chronic fatigue. As you mentioned, I was having great difficulty driving, talking, walking, running the business. I could talk for about five minutes and then I would need to lie down. But, six years after the surgery, I met a biochemist in Southern California and he put me on a nutrition program that enabled my left remaining adrenal gland to recover you know, the adrenal glands take a heck of a beating from anesthesia. And if you had one removed and you got one left that was still not recovered after the nine and a half hours of anesthesia, it’s not just going to come back to life as normal without any special help. So you know, the nutrients that enable the adrenal glands to function, or primarily vitamin C, and the B vitamins, and magnesium, and potassium, and sodium, and if any of those are missing, to one degree or another is going to determine how well the adrenals are going especially if you just have one adrenal and depending on the overall stress level of that person. It’s going to be able to determine whether or not that person is going to be able to manage immune function, inflammation. All of the sex hormones, and interestingly enough aldosterone, which is the hormone that the adrenals produce, that enables the kidneys to perform the most incredible function of filtering 2000 liters of blood a day. So that depends on the adrenal’s ability to produce aldosterone. So you know, we’re all familiar with progesterone, estrogen, testosterone, and cortisol levels. That can also be a problem from a long-term stress point of view. Because long-term stress produces too much cortisol over overtime, which can contribute to the hardening of the blood vessels. We don’t need any extra help to make our blood vessels stiff, because stiff blood vessels are automatically the consequence of long-term pH mismanagement. Okay, so what I’m saying here is that when we don’t pay attention to keeping whole body pH, alkaline, measured of urine and saliva, but largely to have a measure of urine, because urine pH is more of an indicator of whole-body organ gland cell, pH versus saliva pH is more of an indication of digestive status or digestive potential. So ultimately, both of those two PHS need to be the same, which is highly alkaline, which is more than 7.4. Hopefully, we can get it up to eight or even higher than eight for optimal cell oxygen, which is going to provide us with the optimal immune response. So if we’ve got a ridiculously alkaline pH measure of urine, that is going to give us the best ability to manage infection. And by the way, that is going to give us the best ability to make new cells that work properly, that are not cancerous. Okay. So for cells to make new normal cells, we need to start with an alkaline pH.   That affords a negative charge of 25 to 50 millivolts of that cell, so it can make a new normal healthy cell, rather than a cell that replicates abnormally. And long term. Putting out abnormal cells is not a good thing, because then we were making tumors, okay, so. So it all comes down to managing pH. And all of those nutrients, interestingly enough, are the same nutrients that we need to manage proper heart health, nerve health, digestive health, it all comes down to the same thing, ultimately, now. From an adrenal point of view, as I said, we need vitamin C, magnesium and potassium, and sodium to have normal adrenal health. So now it comes down to the form of the nutrients that we just mentioned there. So that we get the best uptake, without having to swallow huge amounts of these nutrients. And also, to be able to take the nutrients in a form that does not contain excipients, such as magnesium steroid or stearic acid or calcium STI rate or any of the other non-nutrient or non-nutrient agents that are used to facilitate the making of capsules and tablets. They have nothing to do with nutrition, the word magnesium steroid to some people, they think they’re getting a little extra magnesium, but really, it’s a deranged fact, that is an excellent lubricant in the way that manufacturers use it to facilitate To take the proper blending of, of nutritional formula, they’re going to typically put magnesium steerage in there, as a first go around to make sure that they get a full even mix of that blend. So that when the capsules are made in, they have the same amount of vitamin A, B, C, or whatever that complex might have been, so that it’s evenly spread across the board. Those are the other ingredients on the nutrition label, where it says other ingredients and you see magnesium steroid and stearic acid, and calcium steroid and silicon dioxide. And occasionally, you’ll find a company that is truly let’s say honest with the label, and they might even put talcum as an ingredient, which is used as a lubricant, where the other is calcium Sterrett and magnesium steroid. Don’t do a good enough job in making the blend work properly. Or if there’s too much waste in the encapsulating process. The manufacturers will use talcum because it’s a super slippery agent. Talcum is is an extremely toxic substance, and is considered a carcinogen. So it’s got certainly no place as an Excipient to make dietary supplements. But the adrenal glands are an incredibly important little pair of glands that communicate with the thyroid, and the pancreas to in the end the spleen to manage sugar metabolism. So if we’ve got some interference between adrenals and thyroid, and pancreas, we could be running into digestive problems, weight gain problems, and diabetes. So by supporting the adrenal glands as much as we can, and by eating as, enzyme-rich as possible diet, a plant-based enzyme-rich diet is gained to afford the least stress on the digestive system, while being able to get as much of those nutrients to convert to sell energy with the least amount of energy spent. Hopefully, that makes sense. Dr. Rosen?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, glad I didn’t want to interrupt, you’re on a roll there, you had a lot of great points. And I have a lot of notes written down. So one of the things that I just wanted to sort of summarize all that you had talked about was the fact that stress is around us in so many ways, shapes, and forms as it was for you. Starting at the age of five, whether it was nutritional stress or mineral deficiencies when you’re five, and when a new kid today turns five, life was completely different. And the stressors we have now I think, just I guess exponentially from an environmental standpoint, which is even more important about what we’re talking about in today’s day, and age with EMFs and Wi-Fi and pesticides and sprays and round up, and pollutants and chemicals and social media and Pavlovian stressors of notifications and dopamine. And it’s just the stress is all around us. But one of the things that I like to teach, Clive is the fact that the biggest stress on the body is the ability of your body’s cells to convert the food we eat and the air we breathe into energy. And ultimately, if it doesn’t do that, it doesn’t do it effectively, because of all the stressors from outside is increasing the demand to have to make energy and you’re not efficient at doing it or there’s mineral deficiencies or all of the above, then you’re going to produce oxidative reactance or free radicals or RMLs is and that’s going to drive down your ph which is what you were talking about in terms of pH being your measure of tissue oxygenation, which I want to get into that area of conversation with you because it’s a great tool. It’s inexpensive, and it’s not on a lot of people’s radars. And, you know, if you measure your pH and you have an acidic value of 5.0, and you’re able, you’re saying we need to get it in the 7.4 to eight, which is a little different than what I’ve been taught and told, and we’re going to get into some of the myths or the wrong information that you saw firsthand that ultimately impacted, you know, a lot of people in adverse ways. But even before then, being able to measure tissue oxygenation, if you go from five to six, you’re increasing the oxygenation of the cells a hundredfold. So why don’t we talk a little bit Clive of, of the importance of tissue oxygenation, pH, and then maybe we can even get I mean, you did already talk about in terms of immune response and managing infections and making sure that you’re able to replicate your cells effectively. Ultimately, it means that you’re able to convert food and air that you breathe into energy so that your body’s ability to make ATP effectively. So what why don’t we kind of go into your evolution of the importance of PAH given all that you’ve learned from the fact that stress and the impact on the body and the adrenals and nutrition and how PAH just became so pivotal, and then, I guess, the Genesis and evolution you’ve gone through with doing that?   Clive Buirski: You know, it is probably the most important thing that we could discuss. Because PAH not only does it facilitates the ability for the cell to respirate and make ATP. But it’s also a way that the body has a frontline defense against cells being destroyed by free radicals. So what I’m saying is that when the pH is alkaline, that gives the ability for our antioxidant enzymes like superoxide, dismutase, cysteine, and glutathione. And there are several others, that neutralize free radicals before they damage cell membranes. If the pH is adequately alkaline, so we lose the ability to have normal cell health, from the free radical damage point of view, on a wholesale global cell point of view, when the pH is not healthy, then we have much more free radical activity, which leads to more inflammation, and sets the stage for infections because all of the pathogens take advantage of us when we are in an acid medium when our cells are in an acid medium, because we don’t have much of an of natural defense, and the pathogens just have a party. And so, the very thing that protects our cell membranes, is the ability to hold that pH so that the enzymes stop the free radicals before the cell membrane is destroyed. And the same is with the contents in the nucleus, the organelles of the cell are also dependent on that medium being alkaline for normal respiration and ATP. And again, it comes back to the cell being able to have normal DNA and the gene being able to express normally all depends on a healthy pH. And you know, for the people that are concerned with the so-called virus that’s floating around, which I really believe isn’t because the viral the theory of, of, of a virus being caught or being transmitted from one person to another is a really interesting discussion. You know, if a person has a continuing downslide in the pH into the acid realm, they are going to be creating a lot of cell death. And so if we’re sick, we’re gonna have a bunch of stuff cell death. And if we have a PCR test that PCR test is looking for fragments, cell fragments. And what they’re looking at is the result of the destruction of cells rather than a proper virus being identified. So I’ve got a bit of an issue with the whole PCR test situation, because, you know, they still haven’t identified COVID, one or COVID, two in the full sense of displaying a complete virus with all its genes intact. So, you know, back and then they say, Well, yeah, but what about the Spanish flu, you know, that killed huge numbers of people? Well, what’s interesting about all Spanish flu situations, is that I found out that leading up to that time, towards the end of the First World War, the late 1800s, doctors were practicing with vaccines, using hugely toxic ingredients. And they were testing it on many people in the military and governments,   all over Europe and elsewhere. And right around the time of the Spanish flu outbreak, we’d gone through the whole First World War, people’s pH, I figure must have been completely shot. And then they started to turn on radio waves all over the globe. So, you know, normal healthy cells, our brain, and our nervous system would oscillate at around 10 hertz, which would be about the same as the resonant frequency of the Earth’s crust, about 10 Hertz. Well, then came radio waves and radar at the end of the First World War, and into the Second World War. But right around that time is when we had our first dose of abnormal radio frequencies. And now we’ve got it to where we’re at millions of hertz, above normal. And so you can see why somebody could collapse quite easily. Because what these frequencies do is disrupt the cell’s ability to hold oxygen by separating the nitrogen and the hydrogen and the oxygen and everything comes unglued. And we suffocate wholesale globally, cells suffocate in the body, with this so-called COVID thing. I don’t think that we’re spreading viruses, I think that we’ve got people very sick, because we’ve had Ph destroyed, and we’ve had our adrenal gland function destroyed by different levels of stress, chemical stress, physical stress, and mental stress. All of those texts the bejesus out of the adrenals. And, coupled with the low pH, and electromagnetic field that has been turned on, you know, we’ve got 3g, 4g 5g, now they’re talking about six G. 5g, not enough. But certainly, the advent of 5g around the globe in the different cities, and metropolitan areas, is being considered amongst the experts to be a major factor in the symptoms of this COVID experience. Now I’ll just say that, I don’t think that anybody should be injecting themselves with anything that is connected to any of the so-called vaccines because they are some of the people that are in the know, let’s say, that are saying, It’s not good to inject your children with the stuff. But it’s okay. If somebody fits the category of let’s say susceptible, being a diabetic or obese or somebody with cardiovascular disease or somebody older than 65. Well, you could give the vaccine to those people. I say that’s highly inaccurate information because there’s nothing in any of the five vaccines that have any benefit to the immune system. Now, the whole object of this so-called vaccine is to protect you from a so-called virus that doesn’t exist and how can it help anybody if they are only super toxins in the vaccine until they come up with a vaccine that has got nutrients that support cell metabolism and the life of cells, then personally, I’m not interested in any of that. And I don’t think that any of these vaccines are fit for any human. Regardless, it just doesn’t make any sense to me to put poison in the body,   when the body is already at its total capacity to manage toxins, we don’t want to be putting any more, what I would say is that we want to clear the bowel, you know, because the bowel, in the liver in the gallbladder, in so many people is all jammed up because of a lifestyle of, of eating the wrong facts. Now, I was one of those people I grew up with, my dad was in the food business. He supplied fancy foods and all the other foods to all the restaurants in and around Cape Town, the Navy, the Army, and the hotels and the hospitals. Were all supplied by my father’s business growing up as a kid. And so we had all the best meats, we had T bone steaks, and ribs and venison and all kinds of meat dishes that you know, brisket and this, there was always meat on the table. Always, always always. I went to school with meat sandwiches, you know, bologna sandwiches and everything had meat. And so I made as you mentioned, Dr. Reza made kidney stones from a very young age from as young as I can remember. And eventually, they surgeries my kidney in 1978, widening all the collecting tubules and the pelvis of the kidney to better manage the flow of the kidney stones. Because I was eating an acid-forming diet. Okay, a heavy meat-eating diet is an acid-forming diet. And that is a recipe for making kidney stones. Because the way it works is that if there is not enough alkaline buffering material in the diet, which is the plant materials offer the minerals that are the buffering agents, that’s the magnesium, potassium, sodium, calcium, strontium, beryllium, all of the minerals that are in well-grown food or missing in the heavy meat-eating diet as I grew up with, and that’s a kidney stone manufacturing diet. And so it comes down to poor pH management, there was an acid-forming diet that I was on. And I didn’t take in enough alkaline material to offset that load. And the result of that was kidney stones. Okay. So I paid the price from an early age for not understanding that component. And certainly, the doctors that were looking after me in those days as nice as they were, that they thought I had appendicitis when I had these kidney stone episodes, but they could never ratify that it was appendicitis. So they thankfully didn’t take my appendix out. But ultimately, they did the surgery is the right kidney. I would have preferred if the surgeon looked at my mineral metabolism before he cut the kidney rather than commenting on his post-surgery. Comments, which I still have the original letterhead with his description of the surgery. And then he describes that mineral metabolism needs further investigation. Well, yeah, it did need further investigation, I was eating a diet that was lacking the mineral so what happens in that state is that the body will go to the skeleton to draw minerals from the bone. It’s pulled through the kidney into the bloodstream every time we rest when we sleep at night to do the job of buffering the blood. That is the body’s highest priority next to breathing that is keeping blood’s pH alkaline. The way it does that. Normally, it would draw alkaline material from the soft tissue which comes from our diet from a high enzyme plant-based diet that’s full of these metabolizable minerals. It would use that as a first draw source to buffer the blood while we sleep. If that’s not available, The body will go to the skeleton, and it’ll use those minerals to buffer the blood, it’ll get the job done of buffering the blood. But now, it can’t put those minerals back into the bone. That is not the pathway of bone metabolism. So where does it put those minerals into the walls of blood vessels making for aortic stenosis, for example, it will put it into the joints making for arthritic tendency, and it will put it into the penis as peroneus disease, for example? So everywhere where the minerals   where the body can shove it off, it’ll put it out there, because it can’t go back into the bone. The way that minerals into the bone are from the diet in a form that is in an enzyme state of minerals. Okay. So if we dig our soil, if we put soil from the garden in a cup, and we stirred up and we drink it, yeah, we’ll get something. But it’s not going to be ideal. The minerals have to go through the plant cycle, for us to be able to metabolize those magnesium, calcium, potassium, sodium, and all the rest of it. So. So that’s why it’s so important to manage the pH because if you don’t, then you end up with kidney stones like I did. The other long-term consequence of not managing pH is osteoporosis, we lose our skeleton if we’re using it to buffer the blood instead of our diet. So that’s another incentive to juice like a crazy person. And to eat an enzyme-rich diet that naturally has all the correct facts. You know, one of the things with eating an animal-rich diet, or you know, a meat-based diet or a diet that contains meat. Some people have less, some people have more. But the problem with it is that it has the wrong fats, and those fats are collected in our bloodstream. And those fats stick to the walls of the blood vessels. And those fats make the ability for oxygen to be transported through the blood and the nutrients to be transported through the blood makes it all very sludgy. Whereas the fatty acids that are in the plant material are all in a form that dissolves the bad fat. So raw coconut oil, raw olive oil, raw sesame seed oil. All the raw nuts, all the raw seeds have all the correct fatty acids, a lot of the green leafy vegetables have the correct fatty acids. Chia seed has the correct fatty acids, soon as you cook it, it turns it into something that becomes a problem from the fat, a blood fat point of view. But interesting, Li NF, it takes some of the raw fatty acids to dissolve the thick fat that is in our blood. So we don’t only need vitamin C, and B vitamins to dissolve their fat in the blood. We need things like raw coconut oil and chia seed to get that job done and a boatload of avocados. Back to you, Dr. Rosen.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s good. I mean, again, once again, lots lots of amazing points that you have there, Clive. And I would just sort of follow up on the slippery slope of just the whole COVID crisis, if you will, that’s going on in terms of it comes down to I like the idea of the name of this podcast called The Truth about your health. And one of the missions that I want to embrace and help people is the democratization of health care. And ultimately, that means empowering people to not be misled and miss fed with information and then food labelings, but also being able to take control of their health, and have education and the conversation that we’re talking about in terms of mother nature, and the foods from the soils and the frequencies of those foods. We talked about the frequencies of hertz and resonant frequencies of the earth, and how that’s all being changed with the information of electronics and EMFs. But what is certainly devoid is the fact that you look at the typical diet, even with people that make attempts to get healthy foods, the depletion of our soils as early as the 30s. Right. So yeah, we’re talking about weevils. The ability to have our cells produce energy at the cellular level, and all of the static that happens at the 30,000 view foot level, especially in our day and age and social media and mandates. And I remember a mentor that we both know talk about, like, you know, with all these crazy things that are going on in the world, or just with corruption and, and agendas, you just got to follow almighty dollar to find out why and how and why and what were, but anyway, as a side note, you did start talking about the importance of, of, amongst other things about the pH and how it tells us about oxygenation of ourselves. And it’s the best surrogate marker that we have to be able to understand how your cells are breathing. One of the interesting things that I think we could talk about now is the fact that we perhaps both learned, and I don’t want to speak for you that initially, 6.4 to 7.0 was the ideal range. And the best way to be able to support that would be by helping with hydrochloric acid to break down your food. So I know that’s a bit of a little rabbit hole to go down for us here. But you know, the truth about your health and the mission of this, of this podcast for myself, personally and professionally, is to knock over sacred cows, especially with things that I’ve recommended, personally for me and professionally for my patients. And it is a very humbling experience to learn about maybe some new information that you didn’t know before that this disk has a disk credit, but tips over the typical recommendations you make. So why don’t we go down there, Clive in terms of 6.4 to 7.0 versus 7.4, to 8.0? And then ultimately, the old way and the new way of what do we do to fix that?   Clive Buirski: Okay, thank you, Dr. Rosen, we’re getting to the crux of the biscuit here. And seekers, 6.4 is 7.0. Although better than the mid-fives, which is where the majority of people are until they figure out what’s going on. And then even a plant-based diet might not quite be enough, because they’re not at home enough to eat enough plant-based foods, or they don’t have enough time to get the juice extractor going. And there are so many factors in different people’s lives that determine how much time they can put around in the kitchen. So I appreciate that component of this discussion because I think that everybody would just like stay home and juice all men, you know. But from a practical point of view, not everybody can do that. Although it would be utterly fantastic. If everybody could do that, especially for a man, you’d have so much energy, people would be awake at two o’clock in the morning, with plenty of energy for the rest of the day, if they were juicing like that. But now, back to this issue of 6.4 to seven no 6.4 to seven o is still acid. Seven being neutral, is getting there. But it’s not going to give us enough muscle to overcome the huge stress on the cells that we have from an illness if you for lack of a better term. As we are facing right now we need more muscle than just neutral. Because neutral is not going to afford the normal function of the immune system to manage infections, which are probably more bacterial than they are viral. I think these infections are more parasitic than they are anything else. And pH, getting it up into that 7.5 And above range is going to have the best chance of knocking down parasitic pathogens of all kinds, whether they’re microscopic, or bigger than microscopic. Maybe they’re little worms. Maybe they little flat liver flukes, they’re two or three-inch-long worms. Or maybe they are even a foot long and an inch thick. Okay, that inhabits our digestive tracts. And so the way that we can most efficiently knock down these organisms is to put them to sleep with a high alkaline pH of above 7.5. Above 8.0 would be fantastic. That would be pulling the big guns if we can get the pH up to around eight. Now we’re talking about the ability to shut down parasites like nobody’s business, by putting them to sleep. Now while they’re sleeping, we come in there with aloe Farex. And we kill them while they sleeping. And the beauty of Ella Farex not only does Ella Farex take out all these different kinds of pathogens, worms, liver flukes, all of the organisms that host in the small intestine and the large intestine, that give us feelings of discomfort and bloating and diarrhea, and constipation. And all these things are cleared when we fix the pH and clear the bowel with aloe Ferox. And the aloe Ferox also gets rid of the sludge that accumulates in the bile duct of the liver, and the common bile duct that gets all the junk out into the small intestine via the gallbladder. Okay, so Aloe Ferox is an incredible way to neutralize these pathogens. Which by the way, if Iraq’s will take care of these pathogens, whether or not you’re fixing your pH, if Iraq’s is one incredible plant with an incredible amount of horsepower in the way that it knocks out the bad guys, I mean, it just quite stunning.   I can tell you stories about the way that it deals with infections that are just absolutely amazing. My own experience with it. Over the years just been nothing short of incredible, I have such incredible respect for this plant. And the major difference between Aloe Ferox and aloe operations. And aloe vera is that Aloe Ferox is much more bitter, it’s about 1000 times better than aloe vera, which means that it’s got that many more anthraquinones. And it’s the anthraquinones that take care of these pathogens, okay. And it’s the anthraquinones that also facilitate the peristalsis of the bowel. And it facilitates the peristalsis of their whole bile, the common bile duct in getting rid of stuck bile and sludge and stones and everything in there. It’s a phenomenal way to get the clearing of both the liver gallbladder and the digestive tract. Now, once we get enough chlorophyll into our system, we can also start to clean the blood. And so we not only want to start by clearing the digestive tract and liver gallbladder to set up the stage to more easily and efficiently clean and rebuild the blood, which we can do with the LFL rocks. But we want to accentuate that whole process with chlorophyll by juice extraction, chlorine Chloro chlorophyll in kale and parsley and cucumber, and celery, and iron in the beets, and there’s plenty of chlorophyll in the beets. And so we’ve got green chlorophyll and red chlorophyll and the chlorophyll in the carrot and the carotenoids and all the other flavonoids in lemon with the skin that’s also juiced, and celery, parsley, cilantro, I can email the recipe or we can put it up somewhere but basically, it’s the things that clean and rebuild the blood. And if we do that often enough, and we, at the same time clean out the digestive tract and the liver and the gallbladder. We can get some phenomenal recovery from all our health systems. All systems all the organ gland systems come back to normal, including the ability for cells to make new cells that make healthy cells that function properly is going to depend on the ability to hold the pH, which gives us that negative polarity 25 to 50 millivolts. So whichever way you slice it, it always comes back to managing pH and managing the good fatty acids and not cooking the fatty acids. Because a lot of people will say, Don’t worry about me because I’m vegan or vegetarian, and only cooking my olive oil or I only cook coconut oil, I don’t cook vegetable oil, and I don’t cook grapeseed oil or rapeseed oil or whatever it is. They think that they’re okay. If they cook the coconut oil, it’s not okay, if you cook the coconut oil. As soon as we get it above the temperature where you can hold your finger in it. It’s becoming some at the top of fatty acid, which is then going to be a problem for the blood and liver gallbladder. We want those roars.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, again, Clive, it’s, I write so many notes after you speak each time I have to pick just one of them, they kind of go forward on but great information on that.   Clive Buirski: So I think that I missed a point that that should be addressed. Dr. Rosen, I’m sorry to interrupt you. And that is the subject of HCl. And I know that so many people around the world use HCL as a supplement with the notion that they’re not making enough HCl. And the problem with that is that since the goal of cell metabolism and the diet needs to be alkaline-forming so that we can produce acid for function when cells make ATP, the result of that chemical process, which is facilitated by enzymes and minerals, that allows respiration needs it needs an alkaline starting point. And so I forget the point, I was trying to make them go off on another tangent here. But hydrochloric acid, we’re talking about HCl. So so so since we’re trying to take in enough alkaline material, to get normal cell physiology, we’re not looking for anything fancy, we just want normal. But every time we take hydrochloric acid, we’re stopping the process of normal digestion because, for normal digestion, we have to have alkaline saliva. So that library amylase can release Teilen that triggers the other digestive enzymes that release from the pancreas but only as a result of alkaline saliva. So so if the whole thing depends on an alkaline fluid coming down the hatch, why would we want to put acid in there, we don’t want to put acid in there, we want to put alkaline in our digestive tract. Now, if we’re eating meat, we might be making acid as a result, which I think has confused a lot of people over the decades that they think that hydrochloric acid is the secretion of the parietal cells of the stomach, when in fact, it is it’s the result of eating acid-forming food. Now, the doctor that is probably the most authoritative figure on this subject is Dr. Robert Young. And he says that hydrochloric acid is literal poison to the cell. Those are his words. And I didn’t ask him the question. I didn’t say Hey, Dr. Yang, what do you think of hydrochloric acid? In one of his lectures, he simply states that hydrochloric acid is poisonous to cells. So, you know, Dr. Robert Young is the gentleman that’s looked at more blood under different kinds of microscopes than anybody on the planet. And he explains that you only have two types of blood. You have healthy blood and sick blood and we can’t have healthy blood. If we’re taking acid-forming food and supplements that are making acid. It just doesn’t work that way. I’m not going to suggest that everybody suddenly become a vegetarian. That’s not the object of the exercise. It’s for those people that are not vegan or not vegetarian at this point. One can just consider that you need to take a lot more digestive enzyme supplements, should you want to continue eating meat, or have a treat with it. If you still enjoy that, you could just beef up the number of digestive enzymes that you take with each of those meals. Any of the cooked meals could use digestive enzymes support to give your immune system the best leg up on the situation. So the more we cook the food, whether it’s a plant-based meal, or an animal-based meal, the more difficult it is going to be to digest that meal. So that means the more support we want to provide with digestive enzyme supplements, the more we cook that food.   Now the meals that I typically eat, from a cooked point of view, will be cooked rice, cooked potato, cooked beans, all the different legumes that will be cooked. But the rice is soaked, the beans are soaked for two days, rice to soak for one day, all the legumes are soaked for at least one or two days, then they’re much easier to digest that they take a shorter amount of time to cook at a lower temperature. And the rest of the food is finely chopped vegetables with squeezed lemon and avocado and balsamic vinegar and all the different herbs, and cayenne and turmeric and all the great stuff. And I never feel like I’m missing out on a meal. I can’t wait for my beautiful wife to make me meals that consist of exactly what we’re talking about. And we sprout sprouts at home and or I should say Virginia sprouts. And. And so I never feel shorted with this type of meal. I devour these meals, but I never feel bloated afterward. I never have trouble with digestion. I don’t I don’t have burping. I don’t have acid reflux. And I have a significant bowl of salad food. With each meal. I’m significant, you know, probably put it in a backpack and take it for a hike. I mean, it’s a serious amount of food. But I never had feelings of indigestion and I’m 65 now.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s great. I think that again when your gut bugs and like you said mostly parasitic, I call it hijacking the decision making emotionally driven food foods. I guess we’re having. Yeah. And I think once we break that hijacking and retake over the steering wheel, if you will, and you have healthy, healthy flora. And again, it all comes like you said if you if it comes down to proper pH, realize what proper pH means. It means that you’re oxygenating your cells which means you’re using your food that has nutrients and minerals to be able to deliver your oxygen to the cells instead of making inflammation and free radicals. And ultimately, if that isn’t getting isn’t that isn’t happening, then a lot of that iron that gets stuck in the tissues because it’s not delivering oxygen will feed microbes and gut bugs that will hijack the central mechanism that increases your demands and wants for foods that are pathogen feeding versus healthy for Flora feeding so you said a lot there Clive. But what I do want to do is off the record and maybe even part to have the ability to help people now that they hear this. Well what do I do about it and we talked about obviously you want to be able to test this to know so to be able to have the ability to test your your your morning and your evening pH and you’re looking really at that 7.4 To 8.0, and like you’ve said even higher than a point zero, yes, depending on your constitution. A lot of people that listen to this or that, at least that I’ve worked with are, are just really severely impacted and don’t have the ability, it’s like a catch 22. How do I have the ability to exercise or be active when I’m exhausted and burnt out. And ultimately, there are a lot of different starting points, but the starting point is to test your pH to be able to support those adrenals like we talked about with vitamin C and being able to get proper nerve nutrients with minerals. And then the other thing we talked about, which I’m excited to talk to you about to hear Clive is the importance of getting natural occurring, B vitamins from our foods and not from just the excipients and the toxic Tagalongs that do are included in the bottles to help flow through.   Clive Buirski: That’s right, and your typical B complex.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s right, that’s right and coal tar derivative stuff, but as ER is so so you’ve developed or used a really good natural source, so why don’t you tell us a little bit about that.   Clive Buirski: So for the B vitamins, I was excited to learn about rice bran containing pretty much a whole beat complex, and so many other nutrients and antioxidants, rice bran has got a list of the who’s who in antioxidants, which is quite stunning. It’s on page two of the information sheet that I sent you that that list of nutrients, Dr. Rosen but right in that list of B vitamins, or these special B vitamins that are partially B vitamins and partially fatty acids that help protect our brain cell membranes. And I’m speaking about phosphate, tidal choline, phosphate tidal serine, and phosphate tidal ethanolamine. Those phosphopeptides are a sort of a mixed bag of B vitamins slash fatty acids that accomplish that. So that’s in the rice bran. And there are all kinds of different proteins in the rice bran. There is glutathione there is gamma Arouzsal based naturally occurring Coenzyme Q 10. In the rice bran, there is even the most elaborate Alpha Lipoic Acid combination with Coenzyme Q 10 is naturally occurring in rice bread. It’s just an incredible food that you can give to babies that haven’t had the opportunity to breastfeed. So it’s super safe for a little newborn child or infant that isn’t breastfeeding. You know we can use the rice brand with colostrum and blue-green algae Klamath blue-green algae as a mix for an alternative to breast milk as close it’ll get us as close to real breast milk as possible for their child to develop a healthy fully functional brain and immune system. Those three things but the rice bran are also used by athletes. I had one gentleman at the University of Texas there was a bodybuilder the guy was built like a track and the only thing that he would use as a supplement for his workouts was the rice brand. And he would go through a container every week. The typical amount for your average person is probably a couple of tablespoons a day or four tablespoons a day. And it tastes so good that most people will just eat it straight out of the container. And the kids love it. Dogs love it. Everybody loves it. But you can mix it with the emu vitamin C. So for vitamin C, we use a camel, which is nature’s richest source of vitamin C and it has plenty of quercetin and other flavonoids in it and minerals and proteins that are immune strengthening. And it’s just a fantastic form of vitamin C. that also can be eaten straight out of the container all that a little bit tart. So typically that’s put in a smoothie with or without the rice bran and the ionic mineral drops are where we get our magnesium. There is some calcium, there’s iron is strontium, beryllium, there are all the 72 minerals in the ionic mineral drops, but it is mostly magnesium. So for the people that have attended seem to get arrhythmias for whatever, there are several reasons that they might run into that. But the ionic mineral drops are quite the exquisite remedy to sort that problem out. Or people that have leg cramps while they sleep. Ionic mineral drops are quite fantastic. But remember, I had one of my adrenal glands removed back in 1985. So for me, the nutrients that make the adrenal glands function are of utmost importance. And it’s the form of the nutrients that count. So not so much the amount, it’s the form of the nutrients. And we’re just super fortunate to have those critically important nutrients for the adrenals. That is the ionic minerals. And the vitamin C, the camo, camo, and the rice bran for the B vitamins. So the only thing that’s not there is a little extra sodium that we’d get from pink salts, like Himalayan pink salt, there is a little bit of sodium in the ionic mineral drops, but it’s not a high sodium solution. So we do need extra sodium to have that normal adrenal function. We need this we need the sodium for normal heart health, for normal circulation of our blood through the 1000 miles of blood vessels in our body, or just some ridiculous distance that the blood is pushed through, it requires an electrical charge of those minerals. So the ionic mineral drops are highly Ionic, and they can hold that electric charge. So if you put the minerals to the ionic mineral test, you will see how it eliminates the light bulb, because it’s able to hold the electric charge. And that’s what makes the ionic mineral drop. So supportive for the adrenals and the kidney because the kidney is another organ that is dependent on electrolytes, okay, it’s an electrolyte dependent functioning, that whole process of filtering, the 2000 liters of blood is an electrolyte dependent thing. And the ionic mineral drops give us that support, which is also why it supports the heart muscle and heart rhythm, and why it supports people that are concerned about their nerve health. Okay, so the minerals are key for nerve health, as are the fatty acids, absolutely key for nerve health. And what is the other ingredient for nerve health, vitamin C? So it’s all come back to that same thing again, B vitamins, minerals, and fatty acids for the myelin and the vitamin C, vitamin C minerals, fatty acids. And so it goes and, and for a nerve to function to have a muscle contract and relax, it’s going to need potassium and sodium. So for those people that have been told that sodium is no good, and they must get rid of sodium from their diet, sodium is bad for the heart, sodium is bad for blood pressure. Sodium is bad for well, the wrong sodium can do that. So your white heated table salt can cause absolute havoc for the heart and the nervous system and the kidney and create swelling of the ankles and all kinds of problems blood pressure problems. But if we don’t have the good salt, that’s the raw and heated salt like Himalayan pink salt, which has got all the 72 minerals in it, including sodium, and absolutely life essential mineral, then we can have normal nerve function and normal heart rhythm and normal contraction and relaxing of the blood vessels and the muscles. So we not only need to be able to contract the muscle and the nerve, which the body uses calcium for, and in the rest phase, it needs magnesium for that. So all the bases are covered in the food state of these nutrients that we’ve put together for the product line and to make it easy for people to consume all of the stuff without them spending a fortune and it can taste good in the smoothies and they can make high antioxidant tea without robots extract to get the glutathione level up. And they can easily clear the bowel and the liver and the gallbladder with the LF Iraq’s products that we have. So it just makes the whole process of people getting well, a lot easier than it otherwise might have been.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s great. And what I like is it does come down to as complicated as the information is it does come down to common sense. And that means getting good healthy vitamins and minerals from healthy soils. And given that we don’t have that coming up with alternative ways to be able to put those requirements still in place, being able to produce ATP and have your tissue oxygenation, or PHB, at an optimal range. And I’m excited to start offering this product line, Clive. And as we grow, continue to layer on more of the products that you have, and provide the listener with different protocols to turn key. Okay, here’s how you do it. This is what you want to do. This is what we look for, this is the approach to it. So I thank you so much. At some point, I’d even like to get point two, because I have so many other notes that I couldn’t get to but we keep it around an hour.   Clive Buirski: So we want to talk again, because we need to discuss the dental component of all of this, right? And how to make that question more simple for the people to get their minds wrapped around. what would otherwise be quite a complicated situation?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Sure. And then just to build on the protocols for the aloe pharynx and the different kinds so I’ll get you scheduled off record for part two. As far as just in passing, I always like to ask my guests. Clive if you would have known then what you know now, what would you have told the younger Clive in terms of stress response and being able to avoid some of the pitfalls that you had? I’m sure there’s a lot of things but there’s one thing in particular standout.   Clive Buirski: Yes. The one thing in particular that stands out is that information is key. So and not to be frightened, not to be stricken with fear. When a person is diagnosed with cancer, the amount of fear is so overwhelming, that one cannot think straight. And one just accepts whatever protocols are dished out. And the thing that I would, that I would try to avoid in my next go around on in this universe is not to have gone through the lymph nodal dissection because the tumor on the testicle wasn’t metastasized. It was still encapsulated. So having that lymph nodal dissection, where they cut me from under the arm down to the pubic bone, and remove that right adrenal gland, I would not have done that. I would have said no, I’ll take my chances with just having the testicle removed, I think they flung it over the wall and there might have given it to Hillary Clinton, but I would not have had the lymph nodal dissection, and the adrenal gland removed, I would say, I would have taken my chances and see how it goes. Without doing that. It would have been worthwhile not going through that whole process because it didn’t, it didn’t change anything other than cut me in half some paying the price for that. Now. So the surgery was when I was age 28. I’m 65. Now, but I definitely would not have done the lymph. nodal dissection.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No. Gotcha. Well, well, listen, I mean, you’re right information is key. You didn’t have the information then. And maybe if you did have the information, then you wouldn’t have done the other. It’s that butterfly effect of needing to find that deep and rich information as you do now, you know, so, and   Clive Buirski: I think, and I think that in this critical point of conversation, I think even in front of that, I would have, I would have wished for, oh, I don’t know how one can go back in time. But if somebody would have told me that eggs could have been a problem for creating that tumor, and to stop eating the eggs, It is possible that my body would have discarded the tumor by itself. Because the body is a self-managing cancer management system given the right opportunity. Now, eggs were a prominent part of my diet at the time that I created this tumor on the testicle. And I just spoke to a practitioner a few days ago, Dr. Rosen, and we were talking about my testicular cancer experience and my ingestion of eggs in those days. And this doctor explained to me that her nephew, showed up with a tumor on the testicle and discovered that he was eating predominantly eggs, she told him to stop the eggs. He didn’t go to have surgery or anything, and in time the tumor disappeared and he has a normal testicle. So I would say to people, maybe one of the biggest points about this conversation is to understand the danger of eating eggs. And it’s regardless of whether it’s an organic egg or a commercially created egg. Because all eggs have a particular type of arachidonic acid in them, they promote enzymes that trigger tumors.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, so it’s the arachidonic acid we’re gonna have to do, we’re gonna have to do a part two guys will do. Yeah, cuz I was just wanting to get your insight on what you would have changed if you could have and now we’re doing a whole new conversation, but I’m gonna I don’t have the time right now to get to that. And I do and I do want to get into it in part two. So very good. Yeah, so I appreciate your time and your insight and your knowledge and sharing with us what you’ve learned and will sort of keeping the listener on a cliffhanger in terms of the real reason why you should not be eating eggs tune in to part two. I also look forward to Clive and I talking about the importance of the dental component and yes, specifically putting together aloe pharynx dosing approaches, and ultimately, being able to help you understand the truth about your health so that you’re not dealing with fatigue and exhaustion. So, Clive until next time, I appreciate your time, and I look forward to connecting with you once again.   Clive Buirski: Thank you, Dr. Rosen. It’s fantastic to be with you and your listeners. Thank you!   The post How To Make Your Body Alkaline? Why it s so important for boosting your energy? appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition about the truth about your health podcast where we’re on a mission to expose the truth about your health, especially for burnt-out men and women so that they can be empowered to get their energy back and go from exhausted to energized. And we’re excited to do part two with my buddy Don Moxley, we had part one, which we’ll put in the show notes last August, we got into a deep dive, but two is to introduce Don, he’s the director and applied science and brand development at longevity labs in the United States. He’s dedicated to helping people live vibrant, fulfilling lives at all ages, and he draws on his career as an athlete, a sports scientist and instructor, lead educator. And now they are diving deep into the science of toffee autophagy and longevity. So, Don, thank you so much for being with us. Once again.   Don Moxley: John, excited to be here and talk to your clan.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I’m excited to have you back because I actually rewatched like I was mentioning earlier, our last interview, and we did really get into the autophagy and longevity and how you first mean you had known about autophagy. But then when you got hired from spermidine, you had to kind of get into the nitty-gritty of autophagy and longevity. So maybe for some of the listeners that missed the first one, or just don’t quite understand what is a toughie, G, and what is related to longevity, maybe kind of give us a, a one on one on that, Don?   Don Moxley: Well, yeah, that’s a goal. And anyone interested in and again, maximizing your health, extending longevity, it’s difficult to have that conversation or establish that strategy without having some kind of a strategy as it relates to autophagy. So, you know, we’ll start with the definition of autophagy. In the lab, that means self-eating, it’s a self-cleaning process, it’s a cleaning process in the cells, that that, you know, in our cells. They sense whether nutrients are coming in or not. In our cells, we’ve got this little protein that’s called an mTOR protein. And when mTOR senses that there are nutrients available, mTOR says hey, let’s get to work, and let’s make some protein. So it goes into the DNA, it pulls out a strip of mRNA, that goes into the ribosomes, the ribosomes start bolting together amino acids to make proteins. And then that protein gets folded in an organelle, called the endoplasmic reticulum, that gets folded in, and not all the proteins are folded correctly. So even though it might be defined correctly, or there might be you know, there might be a little change in it, not all those proteins go into service. And if they don’t, they just sit there in the cell and, and what we start to take a look at, particularly as it relates to longevity, a lot of the diseases, a lot of the problems that we deal with, as we get older morbidity, you know, the increase in lack of health increase in disease, which is morbidity, and mortality death is a function of diseases that are related to a lack of autophagy. We typically refer to most of these diseases as inflammation-related, we call it inflammation, a lot of times I’ve seen in the press, but anytime that you have low autophagy you have increased inflammation. As you increase autophagy in the cells, you lower inflammation, you improve cellular performance, and this is an immune level at a neuro level at a myocardial level. All of these are taking place as autophagy increases and Joel This is the benefit of fasting. You know, a lot of times you know, people decide they’re going too fast because they think they want to lose weight, it’s about fewer calories and the fact is that you don’t have to have fewer calories necessarily if you compress your eating into a tighter window. There was really good work done by Dr. Valter Longo that showed that if you know two people on the same diet, one that eats their calories over a shorter period has increased health over the person that eats it over a longer period. So just you know when it comes to a healthy lifestyle and promoting that, it’s so important to have a strategy as it relates to a toffee G in your life. This means you don’t eat sunup until sundown. You know you spend you know to try and compress your eating. You start by compressing into an eight-hour window So that means you don’t eat for 16, you sleep for 8789 10 hours, and then two hours on the back of that and a few hours on the front of it you are to 16 hours without eating. And then you continually extend that. And there are a lot of health benefits that go with it as it relates to autophagy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great, great starting point, and tipping off our conversation just to kind of remind the reader, in our last conversation, we were talking about how research doesn’t hit the implementation till 15 to 17 years down the road. Yeah, and autophagy ultimately, is a new concept, right, in 2017, they won a Nobel Prize for its discovery. And ultimately, that was a good switch or transition that you made, and switch I use the metaphorical term, in terms of switching between growth and repair, and, and recycling and regenerating. So maybe kind of talk about for the listener, like how mTOR and autophagy, which we talked about a little bit last time, but I’m happy to go into it again, is like how they do not coexist, and why maybe having a compressed window allows for the mTOR, to be turned off enough for the autophagy to be turned on enough.   Don Moxley: Well, you know, Joe, our bodies don’t our bodies, like cycles, they like to sleep and wake and feed and not feed and there’s and train, you know, we could we call this you know, hormesis there’s their stimulus that we put in, to disturb homeostasis to, and the body will respond to that. So this is fitting into that group, of challenges or things that the body, we evolved, we didn’t evolve, to have food around all the time. And part of the benefit of that evolutionary process is the cellular cleaning process that takes place with autophagy. I mean, this, this is a benefit that comes from, you know, not having refrigerators in you know, when we were hunter-gatherers. And, and, and we now live in a time, when we have food, we have food available 24/7 365. And if you take advantage of that, you’re not the cell is not able to take advantage of this, you stay in this mTOR driven cycle, you stay in this growth cycle, which for part of your life might be a good thing. You know, I remember when I was working with some high school football players are some high school athletes that wanted to gain weight, you know, what, they eat small meals every two hours, and what that’s doing that’s constantly driving them toward development, you put work in on top of it. So you’re building proteins like crazy that, you know, which as a child as an as a youth that that might be an acceptable process, we also have higher levels of natural autophagy taking place at that time, too. And you know, one of the questions I have Joel and I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but I sent this to us to our research panel the other day, that if we, you know, we can get mTOR stimulation, both from nutrients and from mechanical stimulation. So if I’ve fasted, and I strength train, I will get an mTOR stimulation from the strength training. So the and I don’t, frankly, I don’t know the answer to this yet. But I think it’s a good question is that if I have fasted, and I have downregulated mTOR activity, and I have upregulated autophagy via the attack cycle, if I stimulate autophagy with mechanical stress, excuse me, if I stimulate mTOR with mechanical stress, will I have a co-activated mTOR and autophagy? I found that to be an interesting question.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing you said last time, which makes this so hard is how do you test right? How do I test a toffee G? And how do I tell I mean, you can do certainly insulin-like growth factor and other markers for mTOR and growth. And you’re right, there are different phases of our life. And you even mentioned last time, you need to have muscle strength. It’s one of the main qualities of healthy living as we get older, so you always want to have it to some extent, and unfortunately, the environment even EMFs are shown to stimulate mTOR iron oxidation, antibiotics hormones in our Cattles, pesticides, and sprays. I mean, you look left, right, and center, high corn syrup, fructose, you know, all these things are stimulating growth like and that’s why it’s amazing when you look at pictures. I grew up in Canada and There was a Terry Fox Run of a guy who ran across Canada who’s a Canadian hero with cancer with one leg. And you look at all the pictures, and everyone’s skinny, you know, and like everyone is lean. And you look at the pictures now. And there’s a certain amount, like you said, in terms of, we have refrigerators, and we have light bulbs, and we have Amazon Prime. And we also have.   Don Moxley: stimulation, Moscow side food, Costco size food deliveries. Yeah.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, exactly. And it’s just like, there’s just so much abundance. But I think to answer your question, I think that I always like the contrast theory, like, if, if you have the frogs in the pot, and they don’t notice the temperature rising, and before, you know, they’re both boiling, when you have that contrast theory of going from a cold tub to a hot tub, the hot tubs a lot hotter than it would have if you just went straight in there, and vice versa. I think if you can intentionally turn off something, you’re going to turn on something that much better. So I think if you accept, okay, I’m going to exercise in a fasted state. But once I turn on my mTOR, I ride that way for how many days I want to ride it for and then I go back down underneath and do my autophagy strategies. And I don’t think it would be wise to do it every single day. I mean, you have the whole heavy duty. I don’t know if you remember Mike Mensur and the heavy-duty Dorian Yates and kill yourself one workout go back six days later. It’s kind of like you and I talked about that last time is the early biohackers. Were the weightlifters and they understood how things work? I mean, what’s your sense on that?   Don Moxley: Well, I think to listen, you know, I do a talk where I talk about the fact that that you know biohacking is this weird term that we’re all trying to figure out, you know, what, what do we need to Biohack? And my answer to that question is yes. And the reason is, is that you know, when I do this lecture I, I show and I don’t know if I talked about the killer whales last time. But if you look at the picture of an orca that is in captivity, what you’ll see is that their dorsal fin bends over, and then when you see an orca in the wild, its dorsal fin is straight. And what we learned from that is that there’s not enough environmental force in the aquarium that the Orca lives in to express the DNA as it relates to a straight dorsal fin. And, and we and we saw with mammals and zoos in the old zoos that were concrete blocks and bars on the front of the cage, those animals lived an average of three and a half years, they were neurotic that digestive diseases there were, you know, there, they sound like humans today, right? But you take that same animal and you put it into an enriched environment in a zoo, these new zoos, and they are living full lives. They are expressing their DNA through reproduction. They’re, you know, it’s this enriched environment. And so the question I have and I asked, and the reason we have to Biohack is that we all live in aquariums, you know, we’re filming this right now. And for the person watching this, you see a, you know, I have the side of my office here is a glass wall, and it’s what time is it? It’s 337 in northern, I’m in central Ohio right now. So I’m way north to where you are. But we’ve got a low sun blowing in here. And this is my aquarium wall. So the question is, what is the effect of the aquarium? So one of the effects is, is it’s like pouring food into the aquarium if you lived in this glasshouse and someone just poured food in all the time. You know what you’d be overfed and we tend to be overfed under new treated and overfed, we, it limits our movement, we don’t move as much as we should. Now, it was three degrees this morning up here when I was outside, doing contrast therapy. But so I didn’t need cold water. I was just using cold air in and out of the hot tub. But, but our movement, you know, we’ve got to get moving and I didn’t I didn’t have to walk to kill something today to eat. I didn’t have to walk very far to walk to the refrigerator, right? I didn’t have to get outside and adjust, you know, living in an aquarium. You know, it’s three degrees outside, but in my office, it’s a good solid 6568 degrees. My body is not having to adjust to the cold all day. I did it this morning with contrast therapy, and that’s a benefit but again, it’s the effect of the aquarium and this is the chat. This is why we all have to think about biohacking. What is it about our biology that we need to change to account for the effect of this mechanical environment we live in? You know, control. I live in a house that’s a ranch house. I don’t have to step upstairs if I don’t want to. So I never activate my Ilio so us living in my house So if I don’t do that, and it spasms, then I’ll wind up with an I can’t say the name of the nerve that runs down the back of your leg. To say it, I won’t I won’t I won’t I wind up with sciatica, or else, I have to do exercises to stimulate that area to keep it from spasming. So, you know, again, it’s the effect of the aquarium that we live in. That’s the reason we have to Biohack and you have to go back and check now, you said something about measuring autophagy we listen, we can only measure it in a research lab, right? Now we have to take cells out and we have to count things in the cells. It’s not like a red blood cell count or something like that we can do in a doctor’s office, but you know, you can start to estimate a toffee G, if you’re it listen if you’re in ketosis, you got to believe you’re probably heading into autophagy to the deeper and ketosis that you are, the deeper and autophagy you are. Now we don’t have a direct correlate there. But I think it is a pretty good proxy for you know, if you’re ketotic, then you’re probably in some level of autophagy.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, definitely, I was gonna say that. And that’s a good test to be able to do, I’m still kind of wrapping my head around that good, solid 68 degrees, I’d be like, freezing myself on that one. I gotta, I gotta turn it up a little bit higher than that. I’ve, I’m post-traumatic living in Canada, and Windchill factors. And now when I go back, people look at me like what’s wrong with you? And it’s like, I can’t do it. I just can’t. So we’re never near 68. Near here, Don.   Don Moxley: Well, what’s funny about that is and we’ve talked about I lived in Florida for a little over a year, not long ago, I was working down there. And I don’t My blood has not thinned out, I will take a northern winter over a southern summer, any day. So I tend to like the other one.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, you know, the thing is it to your point is we’re engineered to adapt to our environment. And we use one stimulus too often. And just like the lady that does the aerobics class every day, she’s not caught cross-trained to do the stair climber or go for a vacation going downhill skiing is like, well, I thought you worked out five days a week, well, your body got efficient at doing it. And now you’re not impacting hormetic stress to cause it to have to adapt. And really, I think these are the biggest hormetic stressors that we could be doing is tapping into our pedigree, if you will, the way that our body has been engineered to live on a circadian rhythm and be in tune with the frequencies of the earth not and be able to go through feast and famines with the way we’ve been engineered so that we can get into the cleansing the cell feeding the debris removing and the support for healthy, healthy longevity. So, you know, sort of switching gears on there. One of the things you talked about which we didn’t get a chance to talk about last time, which I’d be maybe a little rabbit hole to go down as you had some experience with the endocannabinoid system and talking about that, and you can’t talk about that without talking about a toffee G. I think that’s a fascinating connection that maybe some of the more sophisticated users or listeners to this conversation haven’t pieced together and understood the relationship or just in general with those that are the looking for new information about their health. And they heard about CBD or, and the cannabinoids and what’s the connection gone? I’m fascinated to know what Yeah, it’s.   Don Moxley: I wouldn’t call it a connection, I think it’s important. So when you look at when you’re looking at a toffee G, you’re looking at, you’re looking at a cellular internal cellular level performance. Cells come together to make tissues, tissues, and cells make organs. And then so when you step up a level to the organ system, you have your nervous system. That’s an entire system of integrated nervous cells with different processes that go with one. Now the important part is they both Listen, to the big rocks that we talked about, and let’s review that for a second. When we start talking about health and performance, I talk about four big rocks that go into a jar. The four big rocks are a movement. The hack for that is exercise, and there are other hacks, I mean heat can be a hack cold can be a hack. So there are other ways to hack that. The second one is food. And you want to get food as pristine as possible with little processing as possible, as nutrient-dense as possible. The Third Rock is lost Knowing when to get light when what kind of light to get, you know, again I’m up above the 45th parallel here we don’t go out into getting direct sunlight unless I’m getting it blasted through my window here I don’t get that on my whole body other than about three or four months a year when I can get out in a pair of shorts and not get arrested. But you know so we hacked that with near-infrared lights and you know, I listened to lights huge for me, it’s become a big part of, of my wife and I’s lifestyle and then finally the fourth big rock is sleep. In the absence of sleep, it all goes away and light affects sleep, food affects sleep, exercise affects sleep, these things are all inner, inner, inner, inner rate inner connected, and then finally the bought the jar is purpose. What is your purpose? Why are you here? What is it that wakes you up every morning? And for me, those four big rocks in that jar must get alignment with biohacking. A lot of times we get hung up on little things, we get hung up on what I call sand and gravel. And if you fill your jar with sand and gravel, you never have time to get to hold the big rocks in but if you get the big rocks in, you can pour sand and gravel around those big rocks and just fill the jar even more. So when I start looking at this now, when we start looking at exercise, exercise has a direct effect on cellular autophagy that as we exercise more, we upregulate other sensing proteins called NPK and PKK MP kinase, which says hey, we need to get some energy going it down-regulates autophagy it up, break it down-regulates mTOR it up-regulates autophagy. That’s a good thing. But at the same time when we exercise up at a system level, so let’s go up to the nervous system. We have what’s called the endocannabinoid system, it’s part of our nervous system that regulates how our nerves talk to each other. And the place they see this coming together is that you know when your body needs nutrients, what is the signal it gives you Joel.   Dr. Joel Rosen: that you’re hungry.   Don Moxley: that you’re hungry, it says, Hey, we need to get some nutrients. So it creates a the creates hunger when you’re when your system is dehydrated. What is this? What is the stimulus it gives you when you’re dehydrated?   Dr. Joel Rosen: And I got a gene Barian for that one and kidney issues, but I would imagine it’s thirst, right?   Don Moxley: Thirst, yeah, we’re looking for thirst. So when the body is signaling you with anxiety. Okay, when you are anxious, what is the body’s telling you to move? Okay, one of the great things about movement, does not only do we get the production of small proteins and small and small transmitters, one’s called BDNF brain-derived neurotrophic factor. It’s what cattle it’s what initiates learning, cellular, neurological learning so you could beat him, but we also get the production of what’s called anandamide and the end of mind is an endocannabinoid. It’s a molecule that looks a lot like a cannabis molecule. But that goes into your nervous system, it lowers anxiety improves transmission across cell synapses, it lowers anxiety. So I think of anxiety, as a sign as an indicator that we need to move. Now a lot of times, we don’t move and we think, Oh, I’m anxious, I’ve got too much energy, I need to burn some energy, it has nothing to do with energy, it has everything to do with the need to get moving to produce at the end of mine, to get this to lower the anxiety to improve the neural communication. That’s the real value that comes with that. So, you know, when we start talking about movement, movement affects both cellular level at an autophagy level and it improves at a neural level, let alone what it does in the cardiovascular system, what it’s doing in the liver, what it’s doing there. You know, it’s hitting a lot at a system level, not a cellular level as well. Is Is that what you’re thinking about?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, no, listen, it’s great. I’m not even thinking about but I just wanted elucidation on where’s the connectivity literally. And, you know, scientifically, I like the concept of not just movement, but I would talk about blood flow right and oxygenation. And then I would also take that one further in terms of ATP production, right, like if we are under stress, the most important variable of meeting that stress is having enough gas in the tank. And the way we get gas in the tank when we’re metabolically flexible is by burning fat through oxygenation of it right, and that requires a lot of oxygen. You know, phosphorylation. And if you’re a glucose burner, you’re not going to do that. And so you need that blood flow. And interestingly enough, that’s what stimulates nitric oxide, which is a chemical messenger as well. So chemical messengers, I hadn’t put it together. And I know there are some companies, I’ll talk to you after the interview that is looking at combining Aamp case stimulators with some of those endocannabinoids. And now it makes sense to me as to why so. But one of the interesting things you mentioned last time, and you just talked about it today, too. And I wanted your insight on it was one of the things that impact your insulin levels, so much better than fasting is the infrared and, or the Juve. So tell me like, what you think the reason is for that because I’m under these lights all the time. And I’m always running a little high on my glucose, I got the continuous glucose monitor. And, you know, I just, it’s like the digital world that we live in. Whereas you can have photo modulation, to drive down your insulin and increase your autophagy. On the same coin, on the other side is the EMFs that you’re surrounded with all day that drives up your factor. So tell us a little bit about that. What you’ve learned with that, I’m, you know, yeah.   Don Moxley: yeah, that goes back to light, there’s and listen, there’s good food, there’s bad food, there’s good exercise, there’s, there’s good movement, there’s bad movement, you know, you can have the same thing with light. And, and one of the things that we have found, so when you start taking a look, one of the benefits of light, when I listen, where you live, I used to love go out and spend time on the beach, I mean, that’s the beauty of where you live. And when you have your clothes off, and light is hitting the skin, you know, a lot of people just associate, you know, vitamin D development, I’m gonna go and get some vitamin D, well, there’s a lot more processes that take place with the different bands of light that come in at that time. One of those is what we know is that light stimulates mitochondrial performance. Now, the things that you were just talking about when we’re burning sugar, we’re doing that in the cytosol, the middle of the cell, not in any of the organelles. But when we go into when we start burning fats, proteins, and sugars through the mitochondria using lots of oxygen that’s happening in the mitochondria, what we know is that there are bands of light, that stimulates mitochondrial health. And this is where some of these red light near-infrared light red light therapies come into play. A lot of times when you see pain, the pain will be associated with a lack of mitochondrial performance. As you use these red lights, it will lower the pain response. And I think I probably talked about this that I’m, you know, I’m a type two diabetic, I’m a very insulin resistant kind of a person. I have to pay attention to it. I’m not like you know, a little you know, when these little burners I’m, you know, if the zombie apocalypse comes, I’m a very efficient fuel burner, okay, you guys are gonna have to be eating a lot. I’m just gonna be able to move through and keep my energy so I have that advantage after the apocalypse.   Dr. Joel Rosen: But when I’m talking with y’all stage, Italia, like you’ll go through like the crackhead, you know having to get used to it.   Don Moxley: But once I already fast I’m already fasting. I’m already preparing for it, right? But, when we take a look at that mitochondria is what drives those equations. And so I had surgery a year ago in September, and I and I got very ill, I got a Mersa infection from the surgery. And literally, I went from where I was riding my bike, three to five hours a week, to where I couldn’t get out of bed for nine weeks. And that that listen, you knock that much movement out of my life. And it has my blood sugars taken off, you know, I was hospitalized for some time. They thought I mean, they’ve given me insulin. And this is the only time in my life I’ve ever taken insulin for what I do. And I was very ill there are no two ways about it. But when I got out, and I started to work, my movement levels back up and I started to control my sugars with movement and diet more. What I found was sitting in front of red light therapy, lowers my blood sugar as much as an insulin shot. And this was and this was what was impressive for me. So this was one of the discoveries that we had coming through that. And again, you look at it, it’s not melting sugar out of your bloodstream. What is doing is it’s up-regulating your mitochondria, his ability to do that work, you know, so with a combination of some strength work because you know, you want to build that lean tissue you know, the more lean tissue you have, the more sugar can pull in as you upgrade the mitochondria. I do a lot of what I call zone to work. You know my athletes when I’m training them I typically train them the majority and zone three of five zones. the system, we spend a lot of time building three, because you get the enzymatic benefits of cardiovascular fitness as well as the mitochondria. You know what I’m not, I’m not worried about wrestling, I’m not worried about fighting anymore. I’ll stick with just the mitochondrial development of exercise. So I’ll stay in zone two, give myself some compassion, permit myself to train in zone two. So I do some strength work, I get a lot of zone to work in. But then I throw the red light therapy and on top of that, to go ahead and give these mitochondria all the chance they have to be as efficient and, and then with improved autophagy. You know, one of the benefits of one of the triggers for autophagy is a molecule that’s called spermidine. That’s the company that’s the product that we sell. And what we know is, is that as spermidine levels go up, autophagy levels go up. Mitochondrial health improves, we see this in a lot of levels, we see an improvement in immune response, we see an improvement in cardiovascular, we see an improvement in neural performance, all those which are a benefit of autophagy. This is spermidine stimulated supportive. Autophagy. And that’s one of the benefits of doing what we do.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no. I am excited to if you’re able to share some of the new developments that are going on with spur my dime and higher dosing and relationships to sleeping. But before we do that, just real quick, one of the things that I was excited to talk to you about when I saw you at the last Biohacking Conference, we talked about like one day seeing as the future of, of not having to wait 15 to 17 years and having the gyms that are customized. So let me let’s kind of geek out together and say like, Hey, if we could design the the the, I guess the metrics and not just working out for exercise, say but for trainability and longevity, as you talked about with your first rock, what would the future health care slash Wellness Center? entail? What would it have to be able to empower people to not rely on necessarily prescriptive reactionary medications, but hey, here’s the way to, you know, especially with your our backgrounds, like physiology and exercise, you know, training and HRV. And we’re, what are the possibilities, Don? Because I was excited when we talked about that last time. Well, listen.   Don Moxley: I think I think the possibilities are dramatic. And you know, I sent I have a really good functional medicine doctor I work with, he’s a good friend of mine, really smart guy. And I sent him a note the other day and said, When are you going to take into consideration, my exercise data, my HRV data, my continuous glucose monitor data, instead of looking at a hemoglobin a one C measurement done every two, four times a year. He’s sent me I can’t tell you what he sent back. But you know, so much of medicine is built around. Here’s the test. Here’s the response. Here’s the prescriptive process. And I don’t want to take anything away from that. But with technology, we can get better at this. You know, I had an I had a meeting earlier today with an old client of mine, and he’s become a good friend, this guy’s 82 years. And he is as fit as he is. It’s incredible. He went in to have cataract surgery done. And on the table, while they’re doing his heart rate dropped to 32 beats a minute. The anesthesiologist comes out and says like, listen, we can’t do this, you need to go get worked up. Because you know, they call that break of cardio, it’s a low heart rate. This guy has I’ve seen this guy’s performance, he’s got a heart the size of an elephant. He does when he’s resting his heart does not need to beat more than 30 times a minute. Because that’s the level and then when you put him on an exercise routine, as it goes up the heart rate response, and this guy can go this guy can train at a heart rate of 140. He has an accessible heart rate training range of 110 beats a minute, that’s for an 82-year-old. That’s an incredible number. And he’s nervous about this. And I said, Listen, you know, when you’re resting, you’re not dizzy, you’re not passing out, you’ve got plenty of blood flow. You don’t have anything to worry about, you know, go go to a doctor and get it checked out. But you got to go to a doctor that understands where you’re at, and he spends a lot of time working with his Apple Watch. So he got this Apple Watch. And this thing’s reminding him several times a day, particularly when he’s resting, his heart rate is dropped below 40 beats a minute. And the challenges with people like this is that when you go to the doctor, they do a diagnosis that’s typically statistically-based your response as compared to the populations high low in between whatever this guy is third standard deviation 99th percentile kind of a guy and and And you have to do the diagnosis differently. This is where these functional medicine doctors come into play. And you know, people like you the way I’m dealing with you in real-time. And when you have access to real-time data, or at least stored real-time data, then you can make a lot of really good decisions and enjoy, I think about it if I want to go see a medical professional or a scientist, it’s that data that gives them that give me the ability to help thrive, rather than just survive, when you go to your regular health care system, your regular health care doctor once, twice, three times a year, and they do an RBC and they do the whole, their whole workup and you have your sugars and your hormones and your fats and so forth. That is survival medicine. That is okay, we don’t see anything here that’s going to kill you anytime soon. But when you’re working with someone on looking at HRV, looking at exercise patterns, looking at continuous blood sugar measurement, you know, I saw something the other day, I think they’re going to have a wearable device that looks at ketones, which I’m excited about. You start to listen, when that when I think shows me glucose and ketones together, man, we’ve got a tool that we can use to tune thriving medicine into. So I think that’s where the two things go. It’s about, you know, do you want to go into a practice, that that’s, that’s going to keep you alive, you know, that’s going to give you the risk of dying? Were you going to go into a practice, that’s going to give you the tools that you need to thrive, and frankly, that’s where I like to be.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I love it. you know, and it’s just as a harmless plug for we’re building a coaching program, where we integrate that data. So we can integrate their keto Mojo and their glucose ketone index, or a ring, a bio strap, a Garmin device, the Apple Watch, and then you’re able to put if you wanted to My Fitness Pal or chronometer, and you start to see this regression analysis of corollaries that are common sense stuff, like oh, my gosh, when I exercise, I, I have a better sleep or when I move more, it’s not rocket science, right? Why does that happen? But sometimes there are some aha moments, especially when you’re tracking your glucose. And most people feel that they’re hypoglycemic, they’re gonna fall and hit their head and go into a coma. And their blood sugar is at 115. You know, like, just they don’t, they don’t understand that. So you have a comment that you wanted to say on that?   Don Moxley: Well, yeah. And I think you take it another step, Joel, and from the standpoint that how do I put this, I want to be in a position where, again, I’m going to repeat myself a minute ago that I want to thrive, I want to optimize, this is where the wearable technology comes into play. And frankly, it just isn’t touching traditional medicine right now. It’s they’re starting to flirt with it. It’s the functional medicine Docs that get it. And that’s where the real benefit comes from. And, you know, if that’s what you want to do, this is where you can go find that help.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, you know, just sort of bridging the gap of banging down the castle wall from the base, which we talked about last time. One of the things that can enlist the help of a supergiant is having an insurance company understand the actuary tables of, hey, if these numbers are favorable, and they correlate to less morbidity and mortality and more function and fewer claims for our insurance company, then we’re gonna reward you by giving back to you. So we say I mean, that’s a big ship in the ocean that has to turn very slowly. But I mean, I, to me, it’s like okay, you’re saving mass millions of dollars on unnecessary when I say unnecessary, preventable things that could have been empowered by the person to take control of their health and understand these real-time lifestyle changes that will result in massive amount, especially with the tsunami of type two diabetes that’s on our you know, on our front, why would an insurance company you’re not want to reward someone for the money that they’re saved and incentivize them to be healthy? And it doesn’t make sense to do it does.   Don Moxley: worse we’re starting to see that but don’t forget those castle walls are big and thick. Yeah, and sure, health care, these institutions that we’re talking about, you know, that they’re there, they’re big, that they’re there’s a lot of, again, it’s the ship on the ocean, there’s a lot of momentum, it’s working for them the way it’s working, you know, I don’t necessarily remember this about bocce. But if you drive around Columbus, Ohio, the majority of the big construction taking places in our health care centers, you go over to Ohio State and Riverside and these big facilities, they’re building, they’re building institutions of illness, the to treat illness, and unfortunately, that’s where the money’s at. That’s where the population is at. And that’s where the money’s at. So you can’t, you can’t wait for that. To fix itself. You have to own this yourself.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. And, and, you know, it’s, it’s been a big, big profitable, like, bust, like boom years for the last two years in those industries. And, you know, for a reason, um, there was something that I was gonna say in that in a second, but I kind of forgot, but as far as like, what’s new with spermidine, in terms of some exciting developments, research that you guys are doing?   Don Moxley: Yeah, there’s there we have we have some really good research that has been published relatively recently, one of the really good articles I since we talked about was the COVID article. So you know, what we know is that when you take a look at the COVID virus, there’s no doubt that when it infects a cell, one of the first things it interferes with is the autophagy pathways. What the research has shown us is that the COVID virus overstimulates, the beginning of the toffee G process where it’s creating, and the way the beginning of the autophagy process works normally is there’s something in the cell, there’s a protein, there’s an organelle, there’s a virus, there’s a bacteria, and the cell then creates this double-wall vacuole that surrounds it, it’s called autophagy. Home, and then that autophagy on bonds to what’s called a lysosome, which is all the the the enzymes that digest the stuff in there. Well, COVID overstimulates, that autophagy on production, so it gives the place for the virus to replicate, then it interferes with the, with the lysosome, or connection to that. So it just builds up in the cell. And what the research shows is that if so we know that there are at least 59 different proteins involved in the autophagy process. We know different things can stimulate besides an immune response stimulating a toffee G while fasting can exercise can he can there’s a lot of ways to do this. So one of the benefits that we see is that as you upregulate autophagy VF supermini supplementation, it lowers the ability of that COVID virus to reproduce in the cell, we have a really interesting study that came out in Berlin, that showed that the human immune cells supplemented with spermidine, stop COVID transmission 8590 92% of the time. So and when you start to take a look at people who, who did not do well, with COVID, versus those who had no impact, you start to look at comorbidities, you know, this thing they’ve talked about the whole time, diabetics, inflammation, inflamed, high blood pressure, these are the folks that suffered. Well, these are the people that had poor autophagy from just a normal lifestyle process. So this was a really interesting study. You know, one of the other things that we see emerging this kind of interest, you know, we tend to geek out on morbidity and mortality, but the rest of the world wants just to look good, right. And when you start taking a look at beauty doesn’t start, the beauty is more than skin deep, I would like to say, and it starts with that cellular health in those in those cells that make your skin make your nails, this is what we call the epithelial cells. And what we know is with spermidine supplementation, there’s an upregulation of stem cell production in the epithelial cells. So those cells that you want that make you beautiful, then there’s more of them when you’re supplementing, and your autophagy levels are high. And that’s and then and then finally, the last big study that we saw was really interesting with spermidine supplementation, we saw the lack of decline in dementia, meaning that we had two groups with dementia with some level of dementia. One group got a placebo, one feminized group, the sperm, the group that got the placebo got worse, the group that got sperm at nine stayed the same, they didn’t get worse. So you start to see that performance. Listen, I think we have to solve this dementia, Alzheimer’s, neuro, neuro let you know, it’s just it’s so difficult when someone winds up in that. And if you’re going too fast, stop fasting to lose weight, just stop don’t do it anymore. Start fasting to improve immune response fast to improve cardiovascular response fast to improve neural response fast to be more beautiful because you have an upregulation of epithelial stem cells and Damn it, you’re going to look better. Yeah, for sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: But you know, the thing Though on the fasting thing, especially as being insulin resistant, it’s not gonna you need to work with someone that understands the transition, I mean, I get the idea of going to a 12-hour window. But when your body doesn’t recognize the ability to tap into your stored fat, even though I say it’s like a tanker, it’s like a gas tanker at the side of the road that ran out of gas and its tank, and it has 1000s of gallons of gas to be able to tap into. And it doesn’t know how to do that. And you could lower the transition period by healthy support for your floor, hydrogen sulfide, and lots of other ways to help that process. So don’t just sort of put, you know, by running shoes and say, I’m going to run the marathon tomorrow. It takes a little bit of sophistication. But I agree with you. And you know, the irony is, is that you watch those commercials of you know, this drug or that drug. And along with a healthy diet and regular exercise, this drug will help you. And I always find as they should just say along with the diet and healthy exercise, you don’t need the drug and you’ll do well. But what’s great about Sperma Dinah’s, along with a healthy diet and exercise, this actually will make the difference, right?   Don Moxley: Yeah. There’s and we know that what we know is that you get spermidine and spermine, and works in your cells from three different places. Number one is that it will be created in the gut and transported into the body. Number two, you get it dietarily. But number three is it will be generated what’s called de novo in the cell on demand. What we know is that de novo production declines with age. So you’ve got to replace it with dietary. And we know that when you do we place it dietarily The level stays high. And that’s one of the big benefits. And again, I for your audience. You know, listen, I’ve worked in the fitness business since 1986. When I got out of grad school, I started running my first health club, and we’ve been working on it. And we’ve always referred to dieting as fewer calories trying to drive the calories down. And frankly, it’s not worked. And what I want people to start thinking about is that when you start thinking your calories, I want you to condense them, I don’t want you to compress them, I want you to condense them, and then pay attention, that condensing of the calories is where the health benefits. It’s not here, it’s here. And I think this is important to pay attention to, at the same time get the necessary molecules we have, we have a lot of good science showing us that this is a particular nutrient that’s necessary. You know, we’re applying for what’s called medical food claim status. And what it says is that you can’t get enough sperm or dine on a regular diet to prevent the onset of some of these inflammatory diseases. So you can go out, we’re trying to coordinate a research study, I want a researcher somewhere. And if someone is listening to this working into a lab that can measure Pollyanna means I want you to go to Whole Foods, I want you to pick up mushrooms, I want you to pick up some broccoli, I want you to pick up the high spermidine foods and it’s in the papers. And I want you to go into your lab and I want you to measure how much sperm anions in them. Because the indications that we’re getting is it’s very low and in the agriculture environment that we live in. We raise food for production or we’re looking at carbohydrates, fats, proteins, things like that. We’re not necessarily looking at the micronutrients and spermine is one of those nutrients that’s gone by the wayside that we just got to get supplemented when you do it makes it better.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, the atrocity of like going back to the 30s and having depletion of the soils you know, it’s, it’s crazy. So So you know, I’ve changed the name of the podcast show to the truth about your health. And I like to be somewhat, I will say controversial, but attack certain concepts that are taken sacredly and maybe topple them over and redefine what health is and give it away.   Don Moxley: at the castle a little bit. Yeah, right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I’m gonna dock it down. I will. So I’m like Andy and Shawshank Redemption. Right? So as far as Um, let me ask you this, though. The new question that I have is, you know, the truth what truth about health that you didn’t always know that was would you say the maybe sticks out in your mind? Given you have like, I’m always interested to hear your answer. You have the rocks and you have the purpose and you have exercise not so much for vanity, but for functionality. But what would you say in terms of all of those things, anything else that’s unique in terms of truth about health that you’ve kind of had aha moments where it kind of was a sacred cow for you being tipped over and being rethought of?   Don Moxley: Well, you know, I go back to and I think about when I was working in a sports medicine practice back in the day the late 80s, early 90s, and we had a surgeon in that practice that came in with this crazy idea that you could eat fat and protein, you didn’t need carbohydrates. And, and I thought to myself, you’ve lost your mind. Because that way, I just finished up a master’s degree. And what I was told is that carbohydrates are pristine. I mean, these are critical. And when you start to take a look at the Adkins process, you know what he was right. And, you know, his name was Dr. Ray Tegner. And I don’t think I’ve ever told him this, but, you know, I thought he was crazy back then. But when we start to take a look at this, you know, what you can get through life without refined carbohydrates. And in fact, your performances are going to improve and, and when we start to take a look at this with relation to a healthy lifestyle, you know, I walk into CVS to pick up scripts and so forth, and you walk past aisles and aisles and aisles of process glucose. Okay, why? Number one, we like it to taste good. Number two, it’s cheap, it has a great shelf life. It’s a great business model. It is a horrible health model. And this is the challenge and we can’t expect big businesses to do what’s in our best interest. We can’t expect the insurance companies and health care to necessarily do what’s in our best interest, we have to own that. And I think this is the process is that you know, when I go into my doctor, I go in with questions and I challenge them. Tell me about this. Why does this work this way? And you know, it’s gotten to the point where I’ve got to take his last appointment of the day or a staff is pissed at me, because I’m, I’m going in Joe, I, my daughter moved out of our house on January 2. It’s now January 26. We’ve been my wife and I moved into the third phase of our life a little over three weeks ago, we’ve got almost four weeks in the third phase of our life. I want this to be a long phase for me, I’m I I’ve made the statement I’ve had the chance to coach some amazing athletes I’ve I’ve coached Olympic medalist, Olympic gold medalist, silver and bronze, multiple sports, I’ve worked with all Americans, I’ve worked with some phenomenal humans. Without a doubt, the best coaching experience I ever had was coaching my daughter’s eighth-grade field hockey team. It was wonderful. I took the second team, we worked together, we made huge progress. Joel, I’m looking forward to coaching my grandchildren. That’s what I’m looking forward to. And I want to be that crazy grandfather, that is like holy, you know, they’re Holy shit, who is this guy, I want to be that person. I don’t you know, as, like a long-term type two diabetic, I have to pay attention to a lot of stuff, I have to be careful about the impact of glucose in my system. Because I’m now moving into the phase of my life when it goes bad, it goes really bad. And I just can’t afford to do that. So I have to own it. This is the thing that has impressed me. And you know what, you and I may have very similar practices, but there may be various, you may be vegan, I may be a carnivore, neither of those is wrong. But we need to get all of our food from fresh sources. This is important. It’s fair to believe that with the genetic diversity that we have, I can have a carnivore and I can have a vegan and they can both be healthy because of the genetic diversity. That’s okay. You got to figure out what works for you. And using monitoring whether it be HRV or blood sugar are these things that are coming along with the physician becoming an advisor? Not a director, you are the director of what you do. Let these people be advisors to you but you’ve got to own your process.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah knows all great answers for sure. I’m just trying to tie back So had you with that truth about how if I guess it took you a while to realize he was right or do you wish you would have learned it earlier with everything you just said you.   Don Moxley: Know what I the thing that brought it around to me was reading good calories by bad calories by Lustick author Gary tab’s great book. If you want to understand where things went sideways, Gary’s done a good job of looking at that. And I looked at that and I started thinking, Ah, this information that they were given us back in the early and mid-80s. This was based on a lot of that Ancel Keys and the stuff coming out of the government and it was being my and being driven by big food by big and when I say big food, big food is companies that sell processed carbohydrates. And you know what? Listen, I Gatorade. There’s not a single research study out there showing Gatorade improves athletic performance over water. You know what, but they do a hell of a job marketing. But at the end of the day, it’s a carbohydrate marketing company. And this is the thing is that when you walk into that store, you know, you go driving and you walk in and here are rows of, of, of Coca Cola and Pepsi Cola and Gatorade, all carbohydrate delivery systems and when we start to take a look at this is a problem.   Dr. Joel Rosen: yeah, I guess the extrapolation is the truth about health is and I learned it too with my exercise physiology background is the carbohydrate model it, not all carbs are created equal number one, but also like who’s sponsoring the curriculum you know, kind of thing so anyway, I’m always interesting talking to you love the vibe that you have and wish you the best in your third phase your longest of all three and enjoyment and fulfillment and nothing but good health for you. Will last time we talked you gave me a discount link so that I can put that link in our show notes. Yeah, so for people to get and yeah, I’ll be interested I’ll be speaking in, in March in in in Vegas as well. So we’ll see you and your Dr. Martens and I look forward to touching base with you again.   Don Moxley: I picked up two more pairs in the last six months. I’m good. That’s what 18 now or what I’m 17 of 17 pairs of Doc Martens. That’s kind of my thing.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Awesome. All right. Well, listen, we’ll catch you up with you again and nothing but best for you and your family.   Don Moxley: Thanks, Joe. We appreciate the time and the opportunity. You’re welcome. Talk to you later. To receive 10% of your order go here and use the coupon code ‘ROSEN10 The post Intermittent Fasting and Autophagy: Learn How To Activate Unbelievable Benefits appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health where it is our mesh mission to empower 100 million people to go from exhausted to energized. And no more is that evident in getting to the root cause of why you’re so exhausted. And this is part three with our special guest, Morley Robbins, who is the creator of the root cause protocol as well as the magnesium advocacy group. He’s got his BA in biology at Denison University and holds an MBA from George Washington, as well. He was in healthcare administration, but now he spends his life dedicated to research and educating the masses on how we’re being hoodwinked on what our energy production revolves around. And almost everything we do and is taught in terms of his words being misled and misfed. Get us further from the truth and closer. So Morley, thank you so much for being here yet again, for part three.   Morley Robbins: Thank you so much, I enjoying this ongoing dialogue. Even more discussion?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so yeah, so So you know, and again, I’m proud of my war-torn book here, the cure, cure your fatigue, how balancing three minerals in one protein is the solution that you’re looking for. This is how you would already be on my radar before that, but through my research, and all the exhausted and burnt out people that I work with just continuing going down those rabbit holes and understanding that the energy production problem is the number one problem whether you think you have fibromyalgia or in the case that we work with adrenal fatigue or HPA Axis dysfunction at the end of the day, you’re not producing energy at the level that you need to. And just to recap what we’ve talked about so far, far, we’ve talked about the categories in your book, The why you’re so tired, being misled and miss fed information, how modern-day health care is anything but how we are being, I guess, removed from the truth of how your body may, because that’s not being taught in, in the medical tool, or healthcare schools at all. Also, what is the result of that is in terms of oxidation, and then ultimately, what do we do about it. And one of the most exciting things that we talked about last time was stress and fatigue and the relationship between that and energy. And then ultimately, we started, we ended with the stops and the things that we need to do to stop decreasing the availability of the most important nutrient bioavailable copper so that our cells will breathe effectively. And it’s, it’s an either, or you’re either using oxygen effectively, to produce ATP, or you’re producing exhaust. And if you’re not making an income, you’re creating an expense. And it’s even worse to create an expense when you don’t have an income. So here we are, and I wanted to get into the starts of what people should do, we’ll have the links posted so that they can get access to the first two interviews. But I think it’s a good place to springboard from Morley in terms of the starts. But of course, if you want to just catch us up with any thoughts that come to your head, before we do that, then, by all means, let’s get started.   Morley Robbins: No, absolutely I, what I enjoy, Joel is Evali, my twin in terms of being able to come up with analogies that people understand income versus expense, that’s really what it’s about. The other one that I’ve used over the years is, we’ve all at some point have had either done this personally, or we’ve witnessed it, someone trying to balance on a boogie board with where they’re like there’s a ball in the middle, and you got to keep your body in balance. And anyone who’s done that knows the energy that’s required in the legs to maintain that balance. Well, that’s what this is all about. When we want to have metabolic homeostasis, stay in balance, you gotta be producing lots of energy. When we don’t have the energy, when we start to fatigue on that boogie board, what happens? We’re going to go to one side or the other. And that’s where most people find themselves when they’re in a state of exhaustion. Whether we can use the phrase adrenal exhaustion or fatigue or chronic myalgia, whatever the fibromyalgia, whatever the right phrase is, there is a loss of cellular energy, and it’s on a scale, that it’s affecting our ability to stay in balance. But really, people need to realize why this energy is so important. Again, the phrase that I’m using of late is ignored the enemies ignite the energy. And it’s not to, to be naive that there aren’t enemies out there. We know there are. But the body is amazingly designed. Once it has the capacity, the natural capacity to make energy. Pathogens go away, they disappear. They are, they are annihilated. Or they go back into their dormant state. And it’s just a, it’s a fact of physiology, that that’s how it works. And so the root cause protocol intends to restore energy at a macro level and a micro-level, restore the bioavailability of copper. And, and there are a series of steps that we go through. And the most important is we did, we went through many of the stops in our last discussion. And I think it’s good for people to know that there are some critical roadblocks to allowing the body to restore its energy. One of the big roadblocks is being allergic to your environment. You know, there are people that that are reacting to their foods, they’re reacting to mold, they’re reacting to whatever the factor might be in their general environment. And that reaction is a histamine response. You know, mast cell activation disorder, whatever the right phraseology is, and histamines are very powerful hormones, as you well know. They are the hormone of alert, letting the body know we have a crisis. You’re talking about the stuff outside the cell and the stuff inside the cell. Well, what do histamines do it ejects potassium and magnesium out of the intracellular space, and it floods the cell with calcium and sodium, and water to try to flush out whatever the problem was? And in the short term, that’s a good thing. But if it’s being done on a chronic basis, as you know, it’s a very bad thing. So we encourage people to do techniques like in an et, to begin to turn off that Aramis message is basically what it is that there, what I’ve learned over the years, more by inference than by information, but But when I’m dealing with someone highly sensitive to their environment, they’ve got this much copper, and they’ve got this much iron, it’s that they’re out of control with iron, really destabilizes the capacity to stay in balance. So controlling the histamine response is very, very important. It’s a and what, what people need to know is that the master antioxidant protein, it’s like glutathione, everyone loves to talk about how important glutathione is. It’s important. But the master antioxidant protein is so Reuleaux plasmin It expresses about 20 different ways in the body are one of the most important is in the presence of histamine. There was a fourfold rise in the expression of histamine as we know it has diabetes oxidase. But histamine ace back in the late 1940s was the enzyme that broke down his two types of meat. So what So what does that say? Well, if you’re copper deficient, if you have low bioavailable copper, you will be more vulnerable to the histamine response. Because you cannot mobilize the histamine is an enzyme to neutralize it. It’s a big deal. So huge. So overactivity to the environments, number one, number two, too much iron. And I think part of the challenge in the modern era, is to get past the narrative of urine EMIC. And your copper toxic. It’s, you refer it as the paradox. The paradox is, it’s the inverse of what we’re being told it is. And most people are, they may present with low iron in the blood. But it’s stuck in the tissue because it’s not going to get properly recycled. And I know we’re going to talk about that a little bit. So that the ability to recycle that iron. It’s paramount. And one of the things that we encourage people to do is to do blood donations regularly. You know, if you’re a guy and postmenopausal woman, you can do a blood donation probably every quarter. If you’re a cycling woman, so with your menstrual cycle, probably two Three times a year is still advisable. And because that, that, that loss of blood is atonic, it forces divide mobilizes the body to replace all those red blood cells, which is a very important process to reignite the body because most people have never given blood in their lifetime, which is kind of a scary thing, but it is what it is. And then there’s a third phenomenon, that that’s probably it might be as it might be more significant than anything else. And that’s the notion that whenever we have unresolved emotional issues, they’re going to become fear inside our psyche. And fear is a very powerful emotion as I think everyone can attest to. But, but there’s important research has been done around the emotion of fear, and the fact that it creates hypoxia, which is not a good thing on a metabolic level. And a very important study was done by Zalman Pura Zamin. Pra 2018 looks at how this fear creates hypoxia in cells and cancer in humans. And what’s important for people to understand is that, that the emotion of fear triggers two hormones, adrenaline, and cortisol, or adrenaline fuel injector, but has a very powerful relationship with iron. And what you don’t want to do is mix adrenals, adrenaline, and iron, because that’s going to create Adrenochrome. And that’s, that’s the fuel for schizophrenia. And cortisol triggers a four to five-fold increase in MaTeLo, signing protein. And what’s the telethon Endo, binds up copper 1000 times stronger than it binds of zinc. So effectively what you’re doing when you’re in a state of fear, you know, acute fear is one thing, chronic fear. And again, we’re only we’re, we’re 18 months, almost two years now into a chronic state of fear. And that has a profound effect on our copper status, our bioavailable copper status, and our ultimately our ability to make energy. So those are some powerful roadblocks to get in the way. The fourth, that we’re beginning to dip our toe into an ideal with some degree of trepidation. But I think it’s a very profound state that we find ourselves in, where we know there are multiple pathogens out there. And we have a real sense of we have a real understanding of bacteria, yeast, and viruses. We seem to be fuzzy about parasites. And it’s, it’s that tiny medical school, I have a friend who undergrad at the Naval Academy, went to nuclear sub school. And then as he decided he wanted to be a doctor, and his he, he said, is a medical school as a joke compared to nuclear sub school. But he said it because he was going to be stationed overseas. He specifically took a course in Paris cytology with one of his classmates. And he said, It’s, he thinks it’s one of the glaring weaknesses of conventional training, that these parasites are wicked, I think we’re learning that we don’t need to dwell on that. But what we’re realizing is that parasites are good at living on iron, and destabilizing copper status. And what I was shocked to learn last year, I reading a patent application, and patent applications are based on this a deposition, you know, it’s a legal document, that you’re transmitting information that that has the basis of, of law, if you will, and this was a particular patent for a drug to deal with multiple sclerosis. And patent application, so it would be good for the reader to know that autoimmune disease is a byproduct of parasites affecting the immune system. Well, that was the lightbulb moment because suddenly a lot of things begin to make more sense then. And so you know, there are over what is it over 100 different expressions of autoimmune now. So again, it’s, it’s sort of an uncomfortable merger of two eyes. Ideas, energy, and enemies, right. But what we’re realizing is that, that these parasites are easily overlooked. And the typical response is to go after them, the gut detox programs, well, parasites are all over the body. And they’re there for a reason. And so we have to address them with frequency, not necessarily with chemicals. So we’ve identified these four cornerstones of roadblocks if you will because what we need to do ultimately remove as much of the noise, the chronic stress that we have in our lives so that when we start to focus on that starts, the body can begin to get its mojo back. And, you know, again, people need to refresh their understanding of the stops, because most of those are dissing mainstream recommendations, especially in the current era, but at the starts are designed to restore copper, and to restore the bioavailability of copper, and begin to inject more mineral balance, if you will. And so we put particular emphasis on things like bee pollen, and real vitamin C, as opposed to ascorbic acid. They’re very different. You know, real Vitamin C is an antioxidant. It’s a complex that has six moving parts like ascorbic acid is a pro-oxidant. And it’s in the literature, it’s a very hotly debated point. But the fact of the matter is, real. Vitamin C has an engine at its core called synthases. Now, what will be a very educational moment for your listeners is to look up in food journals. All of the tyrosine kinase inhibitors, wink, wink, get it. We don’t want the food to spoil. What are they doing? They’re introducing tyrosyl ACE inhibitors in our bodies through food. And people don’t realize how critical darkness is to the function of the human body that melatonin, melatonin, which it is produced, and every mitochondrion. It’s the chemical expression of darkness. And it’s a very powerful antioxidant and the role that melanin plays in restoring and maintaining our energetic balance is profound. There’s even a theory out of Mexico, that melanin encapsulates the mitochondria. And it’s just it’s the work of bolus, Herrera, amazing son, son, man, Solis Herrera, but it’s phenomenal work about our we do have a blind spot around tyrosyl As if it’s doing way more than just hair color, eye color, and skin color. And it’s just there. It turns out there are dots on our skeleton. And on a chimpanzee, there are 11 dots in on a human spinal cord, there are 12 Dots. That’s fascinating to know that those dots have a metabolic purpose in their physiology. And so it’s important to understand that vitamin C real vitamin C is profoundly important. And in an era where the mineral content of the soil is subject to question, we do need to turn to supplements to make sure we’re getting our requisite amount of tyrosine kinase. And then we have to focus on the beef liver as a prime source of many nutrients, not the least of which is healthy cow eating. properly nourished grass is going to have twice as much copper as it has iron. We’ve been raised to believe that the liver is an iron organ, when in fact, the liver was designed to store two nutrients. Retinol, vitamin A and copper Petasites Live for retinol and vitamin A skin, retinol, and copper. And that’s the seat of where the bulk of the Sula plasm is produced in the hepatocytes of the liver. So beef liver, and there are other animals that we can use. But there’s a difference in the concentrations, not all liver is the same. There are dramatic differences between Deif liver bison liver Cheap liver, you know, I don’t know, elk liver there, you just need to look it up in a nutrient profile. And what you want is you’re looking for a bolus of copper, bioavailable copper. And what’s a very rich source of retinol in our diet? It’s liver, what you want to stay away from his polar bear liver, you know, it’ll, it’ll knock you over and, and you’ll probably go into a coma because of the number of nutrients and in the polar bear liver. But the thing is, there are these nutrient-dense sources of food out there. And so we put priority emphasis on those, we put tremendous emphasis on the importance of minerals in general, particularly as it relates to making sure you’re eating foods that have been properly raised in mineral-rich soil, but mineralize the water that you’re drinking, and make sure that you’re not afraid to put salt, you know, proper salt on your food, because that’s what our ancestors did. What is the word? What is the word salad mean? It means salt. So what makes the salad special is to sprinkle it with salt. That’s what brings it to life. And we have been horrible, as you, as you’ve noted, misled and miss fed, because we’ve been told that, oh, sodium is bad. It was never the sodium was the pump, they took potassium out of the picture. What’s hypertension? It’s too little potassium. You don’t have potassium in your system. There are all sorts of miscommunications. And it’s, I think it’s worth noting for the listener. what’s the, what’s one of the most effective ways to cause renal, potassium wasting. take vitamin D supplements. Dr. John Ferris, noted professor of medicine at Yale Medical School in 1962, wrote an article to that effect. Nobody knows about it. But as soon as you lower potassium in the cell, again, back to inside-outside, when you lower potassium in the cell, guess who comes flooding in iron. And it’s, boy.   Morley Robbins: that’s that. That’s not something you want to get excited about. But it has a profound effect. And multiple studies look at that very dynamic. So there, there is the tremendous emphasis placed on making sure that we are restoring mineral status. One of the more popular ways is what we call adrenal cocktails. It’s a very simple concoction that was I came upon it by a nurse who became a naturopath. It was Susan Blackard. She was outside of the St. Louis area. And it’s you know, take four ounces of fresh-squeezed orange juice, take a quarter teaspoon of sea salt, a quarter teaspoon of juice at the time was using the cream of tartar but your preferred form of potassium and drink it. MID morning, mid-afternoon. Why mid-morning, mid-afternoon, because those are the classic adrenal drunk times. Who did the original research of that about when did the adrenals get weakest? Oh, it was Dr. Pepper. If you remember that, the logo for Dr. Pepper was o’clock face 10 to four. With you. Joey may be too young to remember that. All right. But I grew up with that. And of in the Dr. Pepper of today is very different than what I grew up with. I can tell you that. But the point is, they knew through the research that their adrenal function, sagged around 10 o’clock when we go for coffee. And between two and four o’clock when we have another coffee break. It’s like we’ve just been conditioned. Yeah, I need a jolt of caffeine, when in fact, the body’s supposed to be restoring its energy production. And how does it do that? We’ve got to have that. You’ve got to have bioavailable copper. And I think one of the best explanations for adrenal fatigue comes by way of Tom Callan noted Bay Area physician, I think he’s now retired, but he calls adrenal fatigue, fat Deficiency Syndrome. It’s absolutely genius. And what’s the fat? It’s retinol, and where’s 95% of the real vitamin C stored in the human body? In the adrenal glands, the ad, renal adrenal is on top of the renal glands. And you got to have retinol. You got to have that copper and that’s when the magic happens inside the adrenal glands to produce the 50 hormones that they’re supposed to be synthesizing day in and day out. You know, I what I find entertaining. Is, is this little butterfly here, this elliptical at the thyroid you know, It makes one hormone, right? And all the electron microscopes and telescopes are all focused on the thyroid, and what are we taught are the adrenal glands that you don’t matter that that’s all Hocus Pocus 5050 hormones. Come on, folks, let’s, let’s put the, and I think you understand that if that’s why you put such a priority emphasis on it. But again, it’s another case of a paradox. The focus is here, when in fact, your focus is where it belongs back on the adrenal. And so, we put particular emphasis on things like boron. Bowron helps to regulate Iran, boron has a very powerful relationship with oxygen, it seems to stem the creation of oxidative stress, which is very, very important. But we also use things like diatomaceous earth, and rice bran is just a very rich source of A B vitamins. And as is the liver that we talked about the diatomaceous earth is it’s just a very low-tech way of dealing with pathogens, parasites, especially. It’s not, doesn’t taste great, but it’s very effective at what it does. And then we also towards the end of the process, introduce iodine. And it’s not that we don’t understand what iodine does. But here’s a part that people may not know. One of the most important properties of copper is the enzyme called Ferro oxidase. And what that enzyme does is one of the oldest enzymes on the planet, it turns ferrous iron as valence into ferric iron plus three valences, so that the iron can be properly loaded on to either transparent or can be properly stored in the ferritin protein. Very, very important function. So Ferro oxidase, it’s the classification is called multicopper oxidases. Again, these are ancient enzymes that go back to the beginning of oxygen on the planet. Allegedly, there are over 1000, different expressions of multicar peroxidase are in our gut, let your mind get going around that thought. And the key is being able to turn ferrous into ferric. Iron, very, very important for proper iron regulation. And when and when that happens, water is given off when copper is the mineral running that enzyme important. Water is a good thing. We know that. But turns out that iodine has very similar properties. Iodine can also convert ferric sulfate, ferrous iron into Verica. But there’s a catch. There’s no water.   Morley Robbins: So why is Why is Iodine so popular? Because it deals with the culprit. The true culprit of all of our unrest is dysregulated iron. And unlike Ferro oxidase, which has this natural capacity to recycle itself. Iodine, you got to reload it every day. And big pharma loves that. And so the practitioners who are pushing iodine are doing it for the right reasons. But they don’t understand what the implications are. And I think there’s undue emphasis on the thyroid. Because the thyroid does not run the party that maybe that’s a discussion we can have another day. But that is again, another paradox, as you say, and it’s meant to confuse the heck out of us. And it does. So it just, there’s a lot of mythology behind the steps that people take to get healthy. And they don’t understand the true physiology of it. And only I’m beginning to understand it, I think you certainly are a student of this as well. And we’re trying to make sense out of this very chaotic series of instructions. We’ve been given do this do that. But now we’re beginning to understand the physiology of it, and the metabolism of it and the energetics of it. And what we’ve been told in the conventional world makes no sense in the world of energy. And so that’s really where I put the priority emphasis. So that’s at least an initial overview.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I have some goals Let’s hear I don’t know if I’ll be able to get all to them. Because there are so many great things that you just said there. Barley. The first thing, though, is originally what you talked about in terms of having the energy to run your body, I think a lot of people don’t understand, well, I don’t have an energy problem. They think at the macro level, they think, Well, you know, I may not have the energy to run a marathon, but it’s not that, I don’t think energy, for those that have the shades of grey problems of not having cellular respiration, they don’t understand the importance of cellular energy. And when we talked about before we got started today was the ability just to be able to have those cells respond and get nutrients like histamine reaction, flush out the tissues, and be able to depolarize the cell and be able to get information to and from the cells so that your systems run properly, ultimately, so that’s what we’re talking about energy. The analogy also I like from what I’ve heard is the metabolic reserve. And that’s where the adrenals come in, in terms of maintaining homeostasis. And even like the new term hormesis and giving it different stressors and aloe stasis is the ability to bounce back. And, and ultimately, the analogy is you’re a canoe and paddling upstream, that you’re going upstream with, and you’re working hard to maintain or go forward. But there’s the metabolic drift, where ultimately you fall behind, and you’re working a lot harder just to catch up, let alone fall over the waterfall. That’s really what the energetic problem is in the cells per se. The other thing I wanted to mention was just as far as the autoimmune, it’s really interesting too with the parasites, I’ve heard it be in terms of the autoimmunity first starts with nutritional deficiencies. And that would kind of go along the lines of if you’re not breathing effectively, and you’re oxidizing, then you’re depleting yourself of your minerals, and you become mineral imbalanced. And then you are more susceptible to two evils, as you’ve mentioned it. So yeah, a lot of interesting things there that the thing I wanted to talk about too, with you is the fact of the energetics of getting nutrients into and out of the cell. I think that’s important. But before we go there, we had talked about the recycling of iron. And so I think that’s important for people to understand, because I know that’s gonna take a little more information, if we get back to the I think we did talk a lot about just making sure that we have the proper energy to run the system. So as far as the recycling of iron, so as you mentioned in the book, ideally, we’re in taking one milligram of iron per day 95%, maybe you can correct me 95% of the iron that we have in our bodies recycled. So I tell people to think of it as like an assembly line where you eat food, and there’s iron going to be in the food. And as you wrote down so eloquently in your book, it’s not that we don’t absorb iron, we over-absorb iron, or we keep iron stuck in our Inteiro sites. And when people say, Well, I’m iron deficiency, or I have iron anemia, I don’t absorb iron, they need to understand you don’t get iron into your bloodstream, if that’s what you mean by absorbing be absorbing Internet sites in the intestinal area is not getting iron out of those places. But either way, you get iron, it gets absorbed. Ideally, if everything’s working, all things being equal, it gets exported or transported in the tissues and into the blood. It goes into the cell it gets used. And then like our environment today, we want to recycle. The parts that we don’t use are the parts that we use but are inorganic, or they’re metals, right? And they need to be able or they need to be able to be reused again. And so you know, that’s why we have this recycling system. And anywhere along that assembly line that doesn’t work effectively is going to create stress in the body or oxygenation that is going to mix with free radicals and instead of making energy, it’s going to create exhaust. So why don’t you explain because I would like a little deeper understanding of myself as well as the listeners as what goes wrong with the recycling of iron and how copper plays a role in all of that.   Morley Robbins: We have a couple of days to talk about Dr. Joel Rosen: This. Yeah, right. Sorry. Yeah.   Morley Robbins: This very, very important issue. And I think what you picked up on the process of iron absorption, two-step process, the first step is getting the iron into the internet site. Again, pretend this is an interior site, this is the villi, this is the body of the cell, and the bloodstream is down here. And so the iron is got to get from the, from the villi into the body of the cell, but then it’s got to get out of the cell out of the interstate into the bloodstream. So, that requires some degree of sophistication. And turns out, it’s really easy to get iron into the enterocyte. Easy peasy. There are all sorts of reductase enzymes to make sure that, again, that the iron is in our food system is there, there are five, five doorways for iron to get into the entire site. That’s a good thing to know. Like, like the body’s like, come on, in, come on, in, come on, in. Getting it out, not not as easy. And so the key is that there’s a, there’s a front door, and there’s a back door, front door, lots of front doors, you can see all these different front doors, the back door. It’s called Ferro Porton, an iron doorway, a very important doorway. And it is run by a copper doorman. And if an enzyme and it’s a Ferro oxidase enzyme, and it’s called her Festen.   Morley Robbins: So what you have in the human body are three different expressions of Ferro oxidase. We have so Rouleau plasmin, which is in our blood and our tissue, but for the most part, is in the blood. We have her Festen so play on, on the Greek mythology about the ferns, but Festen, very important expression of Ferro oxidase. Particularly on the internet sites. It’s in our eyes, it’s another issue, but for the most part, it’s in the gut. And there’s a third expression called cyclo pan, Cyclops, Cyclops, again, the hematologist seems to have a real sense of humor with Greek mythology. But cyclo pen shows up in the placenta of the pregnant woman. And what’s worth noting is that a pregnant woman expresses all three. So Rola plasm, professor in Cyclopean. And guess what earthing practitioners never measure copper status. Interesting. So how Festen is vitally important to make sure that the iron that’s in the internet site can be turned into a plus three form because what happens is when it’s coming into the interior side, it doesn’t matter what form it is, it’s going to be plus two inside the body of the cell. And then to get it out of the cell, it’s got to be turned back into a plus three into a ferric form. Now, if you or I were designing a body, we probably wouldn’t do that. But for some reason, there’s this valence change when you’re going through membranes. And copper is essential for those valence changes. But the iron that gets into them TerraCycle gets into our gut, to be properly absorbed, needs to get into the bloodstream. And the critical factor is ferric iron gets attached to trans Ferron. Transport transports iron transparent. And that iron is going to go one of two places, it’s either going to go to the bone marrow, where new red blood cells are made, or it’s going to go to the liver. It doesn’t go to 78 places. And the part of our anatomy that has the highest avidity or attraction for iron is our bone marrow, absolute off the chart need for iron to maintain the production of red blood cells as we’ve discussed. And so, the Festen expression of Ferro oxidase does three things. It changes the valence, accelerates the movement of iron through that doorway, and it secures its attachment to transfer. That those are three very powerful things that need to happen. And so, the iron thing goes to transparent and then at some point But it’s going to get incorporated into red blood cells. And as we’ve noted in earlier conversations, every second of every day, we make more than 2 million red blood cells, which is a mind-blowing number. And then the 5% 95% is that 5% of the iron we need for that recycling program. one milligram comes from our diet 95% of the iron needed for that recycling program comes from over the higher we need for the building of red blood cells comes from a recycling program, but only talking about the small amount of iron, but 95% of it is from a recycling program. So let’s drill in a little deeper. And so the formal name of the system is called reticular, endothelial system. RNAs, and it’s a really scary term, particularly endothelial took me almost two years to figure out that meant recycling. Like, wow, okay, so why is this such a big deal? And here’s one of the great unknowns of human physiology, Joel, you’ll get a kick out of this. We know that in the red blood cell, it’s a waiter carrying oxygen. That’s where the oxygen molecules go, Wait, breathe in. This is a rich supply of hemoglobin, they’re, and they’re offloading carbon dioxide, and they’re unloading oxygen. And thank God they do. And then they start to get circulated the body and where are they going? They’re going to all the cells that need oxygen, to make energy. And it’s just your mind boggles at the amount of RBC traffic that must be taking place around the tissue. But this is the great unknown. We got these red blood cells carrying oxygen. They can’t make energy aerobically. Carrying oxygen, but they can’t use it. So they make energy anaerobically. What gives the red blood cell its flexibility? And the technical term is deformability. Different about why didn’t you just say flexible? No, they call it deformability. And so that’s what allows it to squeeze into the little capillary spaces. And what allows it to have that deformability is energy, energy production. And it’s anaerobic glycolysis. That has 10 enzymes. How many of them require magnesium? Eight? Wow, that’s a lot of enzyme activity. And that’s why the magnesium inside the red blood cell is so important to a clue about how resilient and energetic are these red blood cells. Because the more resilient and energetic they are, the longer they’re going to live. They’re supposed to live 120 days if they don’t have proper stores of magnesium and copper at their disposal. The life cycle drops to 20 days, where’s the big difference between 120 days and 20 days. And so in its state of copper deficiency and a magnesium deficiency, we go back to Lucy and Ethel at the Chocolate Factory. When the manager walks in and says speeded up boys, when you have a very significant change in the life cycle, you’re suddenly stuffing stuff all over your body, right trying to. And that’s what happens when the red blood cell only has a 20-day cycle to the pace that’s a six-fold increase in inactivity. So energy production for the red blood cell is very, very important. And it turns out that one of the most important things is that the process of going from a stem cell to a full immature red blood cell takes about two days. And about six or seven stages I think it’s seven stages in between. But stage five is when the red when the earth’s void cell which is a precursor to a red blood cell. But the erythroid cell needs to offload the nucleolus, offload the mitochondria, and offload excess iron to it. So as the cell is maturing, realizes I can too much iron, I got it unloaded. And if it can’t unload that iron, it doesn’t become hemoglobin, which then doesn’t allow it to become a red blood cell. So the inability to let the iron out through that Ferro port doorway becomes important, especially in the production of red blood cells. Again, over 2 million a second. Think about that, playing in the background as we’re listening, as we’re having this conversation, be thinking about trying to keep track of 2 million cells trying to offer it all a second. It’s just, it’s crazy. But that’s why I think that’s why Carl Sagan got into this question billions and billions. It’s like, we can’t even comprehend what’s going on. So then we’re back to the most mysterious part of the human tablet. We know that the mitochondria, again 40 quadrillions, every cell 500, has a huge diversity in terms of going, from a liver cell to a brain cell in terms of how many mitochondria there are. And the mitochondria need to turn oxygen into the water.   Morley Robbins: And that process of turning Otoo into two molecules of h2o requires a pH of seven. And when that pH has right, three energy precursor cells, three ADP, already complex five to become three magnesium, ATP, and that’s the currency that runs the cell. The unknown, I think I think you’re gonna find this fascinating. Nobody knows how oxygen gets from outside the cell to the mitochondria.   Morley Robbins: There’s, there’s no, there’s no literature on it. The closest you’re going to come is where to send in Wilson. Wilson, I think his last name 2007. They had a theory, but no one’s able to substantiate it. We don’t know how oxygen gets from outside the cell into is it active transport is it just gaseous diffusion. And the reason why I emphasize this is we’re talking about the second most reactive element on the planet. This is not, this is not some benign playdough we’re talking about this is highly reactive oxygen. And nobody knows how it gets to the mitochondria. I find that fascinating. And so the process of turning that oxygen into water, as we get into the electron transport chain, very important movement of electrons through the different complexes got to have the reducing factors in an ad plus and FADH to and is a very important NADH, not any each plus NADH. But you’ve got to have these reducing factors. To support the movement of electrons, you’ve got to have the shuttle carriers, you’ve got to have Coenzyme Q and you’ve got to have cytochrome c? Well, it turns out that the cytochrome, BC complex, which hangs out in complex three, relies on Ubiquinol to receive it cytochrome c a complex for guess what it requires? What? What it relies on?   Morley Robbins: Retinal turns out retinal as an electron carrier that’s buried research. It’s amazing. So you start to take retinal out of your diet, you’re going to start to create a more reactive electron transport chain. Wow, that’s a good thing to know. And what is glucose do? Again, we seem to have a choice in our diet to in sugar and fat, right? They want us we be sugarless fat. They don’t want us eating as much fat? Well, if you have more sugar, it slows down the electrons. Does that sound like a good idea job to slow down electrons and the electron transport chain? Do you think you’re going to create work statically, think you’re going to create more oxidative stress? No, of course, you are. And so that dynamic is taking place. And somewhere in this process. And I beg of you to be forgiving because nobody talks about this. But the process of getting oxygen to the mitochondria. We’re assuming that iron is still carrying the oxygen. And that iron. What after it’s chopped off its payload. And it’s and what is it? What form is it in? It’s in a plus-two form to carry oxygen. So when it’s transparent when it’s in ferritin, it’s plus three, but when it’s the waiter, which is 70% of the iron in your body is a waiter. When it’s the waiter. It’s plus two and it needs to be recycled. into two very important metabolites, you got to be able to make heme protein. And you’ve got to be able to make Iron-sulfur clusters. And they come in different varieties, there’s, you know, two irons, three irons, four irons to depends on what part of the electron transport chain you’re trying to make. But the key is the mechanisms, the beginning of the heme process begins and ends with copper, as an enzyme, and Ferro Keila Taisce enzyme are copper-dependent. And what’s useful for people to know is that, that the first and the last three enzymes to make him are taking place inside the matrix of the mitochondria. What’s hanging out the matrix, it’s 50,000. Atoms of, of copper. And copper might be involved in all aspects of it. So you’ve got four that are taking place outside of the mitochondria. But the four that are taking place inside the mitochondria are hanging out in the matrix. So really begins to suggest that the pivotal role that copper plays in this heme process, and especially the last step complex, or the enzyme eight, in making him is called Ferro Keilah Taisce. And Ferro Keila. Taisce is a crane that picks up iron and then drops it into the center of the heme molecule. So it can go back out and get recycled. So it can go to be made into more hemoglobin to be made into more red blood cells. Very, very important process. And then the process to make Iron-sulfur clusters. Well, there’s a rate-limiting variable. And it’s called gluten, gluten, redox, and five, G or x live, well put on your thinking cap, you know who the battery is, it’s copper. So you can’t, you can’t make that pivotal enzyme work if it doesn’t have copper, and then that disrupts the production of iron-sulfur clusters. And so this recycling process is, there’s this constant process of, of delivery of oxygen, it’s attached to iron, although no one can explain it in detail to my satisfaction. And iron doesn’t just hang out, it needs to be recycled and put into a form that can be reused. Why? Because if it can’t be reused, guess what happens? If copper is missing, the oxygen can’t be activated properly. Irons hanging out isn’t being recycled. And then they come together as rust. And it’s its most basic disruption of mitochondrial activity is the inability to recycle iron and recycle oxygen into the water. And many scientists make the statement that the terminal destination for iron and oxygen is the mitochondria. And that’s exactly what they’re talking about. And that iron needs to be recycled, turned into him and iron-sulfur clusters. And the oxygen needs to be recycled into water. I don’t know where it goes. But the mitochondria are water wheels. And if you’re not making water, it becomes a Ferris wheel. And then the Ferris wheel starts to create rust all over the body. So that hopefully gives you a better sense of what the dynamics are. And why iron recycling is so important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s funny, it’s I appreciate all the synapses that fired in your brain over the years to get that out today cuz that there’s a lot of insight in that for sure. It’s funny that you use that analogy because when I’m going over someone’s organic acid test results, and they show you the Krebs cycle, I tell them to think of it as a water wheel. Think of it as like you’re on the casino boat. And if the water doesn’t make a full revolution around, it’s going to spill out. And that’s what we’re seeing and the cofactors are missing. And ultimately, so what’s interesting couple things that come to my mind is, as you know, with the genetics, and we talked about that beforehand, at the end of the day, if your cells are not breathing effectively, if you’re not making an income and you’re creating an expense, you could know all the seven standard deviations of genetic challenges that happen you still need to get the body to breathe effectively, and the intelligence of the body once it has a surplus it knows what to do with it and get out of it. The way where I argue well, let’s also know that it knows what to do intelligently, let’s accelerate that. But aside from that, the thing that I think about is that I do a lot of training in functional genomics, and Dr. As we talked about Dr. Bob Miller, and he talked, he did a study a lime study. I don’t know if you’re aware of this. And he found out that those that had the more susceptibility with Ferro potent or H MOX, which is recycling HFP enzymes that had much more profound challenges, symptoms, problems expressions when they had the Lyme problem. And now it makes me think of going back and looking at the copper, you know, taking it one step upstream and looking at the copper relationship, and even siphoning out how much more potent the expression of illness would be, not be, well, obviously, because you’re not exporting iron as effectively even if it is copper available or dependent. But the fact is, it’s very seldomly, the amount of copper is not there for those enzymes to work effectively. So that’s one of the things I think about. The other thing I think about too, morally, is that I didn’t realize as Pharaoh potent is the only exporter in the body. I was only thinking about Intero sites, I wasn’t thinking along the lines of making red blood cells, right? So that’s like, boom, like, oh my gosh, that’s huge.   Morley Robbins: That’s not just red blood cells. It’s, it’s neurons, that’s astrocytes, it’s everything. It’s everything. Yeah. Once every cell doing, every cell is making energy. They can’t make any. And again, that to me, I’m baffled that no one has it’s either an oversight on sciences part, which I find hard to believe. But no one has been able to document what happens to iron and oxygen after the payload of oxygens made the mitochondria. What, what, what the heck’s going on here, folks? I mean, it’s just, to me, it’s, it’s the most glaring gap in our understanding of physiology. And then you’re talking about the iron copper dynamics, you probably have friends who have an older brother. And when you were growing up, you probably witnessed the older brothers beating up on the younger brothers. I mean, I’ve got vivid memories of that. And so think of the younger brothers copper, older brothers iron, right. And Jamie Collins, the University of Florida in Gainesville, and some amazing work to demonstrate that excess dietary iron crashes, copper metabolism. And he’s looking at it at a macro level and also at a cellular level. And it’s just, it’s so obvious, and what’s the backbone of our immune system was energy. But a critical factor is interleukin two. Well, interleukin two is copper-dependent. But both innate and acquired immune systems run on the energy of copper, but they also are critically dependent on copper. And who’s talking about that? Besides you and me, I don’t know a lot of people talking about it. And so it’s just people have this very corralled perspective of how the body runs. What’s the narrative? It’s not nature, nature’s over here relying on minerals and energy and incredible signaling mechanisms. And we’re supposed to be that pathogens rule all and it’s come on, it’s so much more dynamic than that. And I think it’s really important for people to forget, I think we’ve used this phrase, but you need to ask better questions and demand better answers. Because we’re, we’re not in kindergarten anymore. We’re at a very critical juncture. And I think we need to be very discerning about the quality of the information that we’re basing our decisions on. And I think that’s the importance of these, this exchange that we’re having as people are getting an injection of truth that they’ve never probably had heard before, at least in the sense of the intensity of this kind of conversation.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting to the other thing I thought about when you’re getting into the recycling and even before that was just the concept of frequency and you talked about melanin and we talked about circadian rhythm or times of the day where we have the dip and all cells work on a circadian rhythm, and they’re ultimately synchronizing with each other to work as a system and it’s all about communication and how copper allows the mitochondria and the and the As the computer chip to be able to have the information to communicate, and I also think about the fact that with the frequency of, or just the earth, right? I mean, you think about where we’re minerals and mean, I remember like, as I’m trained as an as a chiropractor, one I used to do training and remember thinking about the innate intelligence, like, what’s the difference, you know, God forbid, if you got struck by lightning and you were dead, and or you were standing up, the difference is that energy in the body, that frequency that, that, just that, that energy that’s there. And, and really, I’ve told people, if you could go on a time machine and go back 200 years where the minerals were plentiful in the earth, where we didn’t have Wi-Fi and social media, and we were able to maybe even the light bulb, and be able to go to bed, when when, when it gets dark out and or go camping and get synchronized with the earth and have that frequency of the soils and, and the nutrients to harmonize your cells. That’s probably the best medicine that you could ever do, right? Morally, in terms of just getting out of the way, no matter how complicated, you just described, what you described. And what we’ve been talking about, is simple in terms of getting the body what it needs, removing what it doesn’t need, and letting the magic happen on its own, it’s easier said than done. But ultimately, it’s getting the proper frequencies of the Earth, getting the body communicating with the Earth, that’s what grounding is, and electrons and so forth, making sure that you’re getting rid of the static electricity, if you will, and then being able to build up the reserves so that you’re not, you know, only paying interest payments, if you will, and you keep falling further and further behind on the metabolic drift and you’re getting closer to that waterfall. And you don’t even have to think about it, you’re just doing it naturally. It’s a, it’s quite amazing. As I always say morally, as bad as it is. Now I do feel it because I’m from Canada. And like people used to make fun of me when I went and moved to the US because there was the whole sort of I think Canada has a little bit of an inferiority complex, but there’s a certain amount of, hey, like, it’s obnoxious, and you go there, and I say, You know what, at the end of the day, it’s the best of the best than the worst of the worst. And I do feel like that’s where we are in healthcare and where we are in the world. And the information you bring forward is where the best of the best and the worst of the worst, and we know so much more than we ever have known. And the body is incredibly resilient when you get out of the way. And you allow it to do what it needs to do. Lots of amazing things that you talked about, as far as I’m sure we could do a part four, as far as any loose ends, that you want to add to that. I mean, I know just when you were talking about the recycling of iron, and I know a lot of people talk about, crypto pie rolls and having that problem. At the end of the day, I think about it’s a copper, copper issue. That’s a huge thing. And the other thing that was enlightening when you told me is just that RBC, magnesium, and how deformable red blood cell is for it to get into the tissues to make ATP and why it’s so important to have that magnesium. Any other sort of things that you want to bring up that kind of comes up in your head when with all the things that I just mentioned?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, no, I think it’s useful for the listener to step back from this discussion. Again, I give high marks to Joe for having this kind of dialogue. Not a lot of people have this kind of freedom we’ll dive into reality. But I think it’s important for the listener to kind of step back and just ponder this idea that there is no such thing as iron deficiency anemia. It does, it makes no sense on a geophysical level and a metabolic level. And maybe someday we can get into the real reality that but that becomes one of the cornerstones of belief is that anemia exists. So then I’ve got to feed iron, it’s the worst possible thing you can do is, is put excess iron into the human body. And then the second, the second issue to come to terms with is there’s no such thing as a medical disease. It doesn’t exist. There is stress-induced mineral dysregulation that causes metabolic dysfunction. And one phrase for that is adrenal fatigue or hypothyroidism or whatever. Whatever. Your favorite Termas. But at the end of the day, every condition attached to a symptom, the reason for the title of the book and hold the book up real quick if you would, Joe, you know, there’s a method to my madness, it cures your fatigue, what isn’t just adrenal fatigue, we’re talking about energy deficiency at the cellular level. And when you realize that it’s that there’s this deficit and energy that precedes every other breakdown in the body, whether we’re talking about one standard deviation out to six or seven standard deviations, it becomes the most important understanding that there’s this planet, our life revolves around energy. What’s the famous expression that equals MC squared? energy equals mass times the speed of light? Well, what does that mean? Energy is a function, or it gets translated into structure and function. And if the energy changes, the structure and function of the tissue changes, it’s an energetic equation. If it isn’t that, oh, well, there was some demonic bug that got into my body and I lost no, you, you lost your energy homeostasis. And that changed the whole physiology of energy dynamics, which then changed the cellular dynamics. And it’s important to have that sense, of understanding that there is one mechanism of this disease, and it evolves around energy deficiency, the phrase that I used in the book has fatigue, just so people could, could grasp it. But I think it’s so important for people to realize that that is this is it’s always playing in the background. And the point that you made earlier, Joe, which is very important. at a macro level, you may feel just fine. But any symptom that you’ve got a headache, you know, stiff joints, bowel dysfunction, you know, blurry eyes, whatever it happens to be liver, you know, nonalcoholic, fatty liver disease, heart disease, Lyme disease, doesn’t matter what the expression is, at the very basis of it, is tissue is not able to make adequate energy to stay in the base in harmony and homeostasis. That’s the underlying truth of how our, our body works. And it’s an important principle, though, to realize that when I do have a symptom, well, I must be dealing with some stress and begin to, to begin to peel back that onion to find out what that stressor is, is it something dietary is something environmental, is it some, some relationship issue or whatever it happens to be, and begin to understand that there’s always a price to pay for the stress in our world out here is going to turn into oxidative stress in our body, and, and some parts of our body are better equipped to handle that stress than others. And if there’s a chronic, perpetual issue in her life, well, the organ that’s attached to that emotion, and the Chinese figured this out 1000s of years ago, that Oregon is going to be more mentally challenged, because it’s been dealing with more stress. And that begins to explain some of the varieties of symptoms that people have within a community or within a family or whatever the unit of abstraction is.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a paradigm shift of what energy is for and ultimately, life is never smooth sailing. And, you know, when we come to a hill and we’re in a car, you can’t maintain the same speed to necessarily overcome it, you have to put more pressure in the accelerator to overcome that and that’s the analogy is when you have bigger stress in your life, you need to produce energy to bring your body back to normal or always changing which is amazing the thing that I would probably plant the seed for now morally is now that we understand the what we’re not being told and I liked the words misled and miss fed. It comes down to that some that’s a priority now not much I was doing a lot of thinking after we got off the call last time and it’s important to make sure people are educated and I love the word democratization of healthcare, democracy, the democratization of energy, and giving it back to the user but the deeper purpose of going forward and removing The barriers that don’t allow us to understand these things and being misled and the fact that we’re missing fed and, and the reasons for that I think that there’s a deeper purpose in educating a community and helping them democratize energy has to come through laws being written and, and companies being penalized, and so forth and so on. But amazing conversation nonetheless. And I, you know, and I always ask someone, and I’d be interested in you this as well, even though I’m keeping it open for part four, five, and six is, you know, one of the things that I asked my guests are, if you would have known now, what you would have wished you would have known then, or with the sage-like morally that knows his information that he knows now, with sort of the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Morley, when you were going through life and having some obstacles and so forth, so foretold you have wished you would have told that more naive or not understanding Morley guy that would have accelerated your learning curve or helped you get over the hump quicker, what would have been the most useful piece of information that you wish you would have known then that you know, now?   Morley Robbins: When you’re, when you’re in college, and you want to be a doctor, and you’re going to a pre-med program, which is very rigorous, and you can imagine, you’ve gone through a program, you know, how just physically and emotionally exhausting, but at an undergraduate level is pretty demanding. And you get to the end of the process, and you come up empty? And, you know, you get rejections. And so the natural conclusion is, I wasn’t smart enough. And so you, you start your adult life, thinking that you’re not smart enough. And that becomes sort of a handicap, if you will, for going forward. I think what the sage in me now would say, you know, first of all, maybe you would have been a lousy doctor, that that would be a good thing to know. But you didn’t get low grades, because you’re not smart. You got low grades because you see the game differently. And you didn’t understand and this was my dilemma. It’s like, why do I need to know what the Doppler effect is? If I want to be a surgeon? I couldn’t, I couldn’t connect those dots, just to it wasn’t just enough to say why I mastered the Doppler effect. And therefore I get I just like, this makes no sense at all. Why am I and so I think what I’ve learned, since that a more sensitive period of my life, is that I wasn’t learning? What made sense to me, I wasn’t learning the right things. I wasn’t studying the right areas, and by a quirk of fate, and I do mean a quirk, the universe said, well, let’s, let’s see what he does with this mineral thing. And it became, to me it became oxygen, I was able to breathe, maybe for the first time in my life professionally to see, wow, I do understand this. But it was in a language that I understood immediately. And then it was a, it was a subject matter that I get excited talking about and wanting to teach people and then wanting to expand that to reach as many people as I can. I love your goal of reaching 100 million people. I think that’s, that’s ambitious and bold, and it’s exactly the right number. And the thing is, when we’re in our 20s, we’re very vulnerable. Now, I’m 6 of a few weeks ago, and I’ve lived have lived a very full life, very, have had amazing experiences for kids who are just off the charts, in terms of their talents on many levels. But I’ve had life experiences that I never would have expected to have. But I’ve been blessed with an opportunity to do my life’s work, which is not many people can say that, that I can. Honestly, Ralph Waldo Emerson has a famous poem on success. And I love that poem. And one of my favorite parts of that poem is to know that one life has breathed easier. And I think you experienced this in your practice as well, you, you have touched 1000s and 1000s of lives and you know, under your interaction, there are better people for and I’ve, I’ve been able to experience that and witness that. And when I first met Dr. Liz, I was mesmerized by the 1000s of people. She had touched in her chiropractic career. And just the following that she had and I didn’t have any of that. I didn’t know I didn’t. I was so in all of it. I never imagined that in my lifetime. I would be able to experience anything that even comes close to it. So I think it’s important for people to realize that sometimes you if it appears that the door is closing, you know, sounding music, there is always a window that’s opening. And it may take years and years for that window to open. But to know and believe in yourself, that you, you do have a reason for being here, we all have a purpose in being on this planet, we’re here to learn lessons. And I never would have predicted the focus that I have or the kind of impact that it’s having. And it’s, it’s a very special moment to know that, that there’s a community, a growing community of people who get excited about these dots that are being connected. And that people can springboard with the work that they do as you do, and other people who just say, I just want to help people with the RCP are what doesn’t matter what the venue is. But it’s these foundational components that are making sense, but they’re also allowing people to have their life back. And I think that’s a very special moment. And I think, you know, in retrospect, I don’t know that I could have understood what that sage person is now saying, you want to have in my 20s, I was an insufferable pain in the butt to deal with. And I don’t know that I really would have understood it. But now looking back, as you pose the question, it sure would have been nice to try to tap into that and, and let the younger Turk know that there’s, there are different avenues of expression, and go easy on yourself, and just find the one that feels right for you. And if the first couple of paths doesn’t make sense, then keep trying. Because there is a path the world went to follow. But we need to go through sometimes the schools of Hard Knocks that are very uncomfortable, very painful. But they’re very profound and their ability to prepare us for our calling if you will.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a great answer. And I think the, I guess the answer, though, because there’s so much you put in there, I guess the answer that I’m inferring, as you would have told that, that that younger morally, it’s okay. To not worry about the fact that this doesn’t interest you redefine how you’re interpreting it in terms of you’re not dumb. It’s just not in your it’s not in your wheelhouse. And, yeah, yeah. And but the thing is, that’s an important lesson with the people that I teach to is, is that it’s the, it’s the spin we put on things. And sometimes I feel like the best answers, which you kind of did mention, I don’t think I would have been ready for it. And you know, when the teacher is a student is ready, the teacher will appear right. And I think a lot of the time, we put a lot of energy and negative energy into something that is serving us to get to the next step to the next step to the next step and be sage-like in those when it’s under when it’s unfolding so that you don’t attach negative energy to it, or at least stress-energy or hypoxic inducing energy that causes a major problem. And most importantly, what I tell clients is to Be grateful for that. But you know, be very grateful, like if I had not questioned if I had just had a different personality, and I would have just studied that, would I have been a good doctor? Would I have been happy? What have I had a midlife crisis, and put that gratitude of I’m so grateful that I, I figured it out? And I had to go through those trials and tribulations like that’s back to the analogy again, of having to put your foot on the accelerator where the only way that you’re going to sail in a sailboat is if there is a wind if there is no wind, you’re not going anywhere. Now, if the winds coming in your face, it’s a lot harder, but you could talk back and forth and get to where you want to get to. So I think it’s really important to put that gratitude spin on it and be grateful for an embrace and, and not just sort of go through the emotion or the saying of I’m grateful but energetically feeling that gratitude. And so there’s lots of wisdom and what you said there Marley I do appreciate our conversations and, and your insight. And, you know, again, probably hopefully everyone’s that listening to this as listening to the first and the second one. But just always like a good call to action on where they get the reports or where they learn more about the stops and starts they can get the book on any place where they get the booking service, but where are they getting the information to know more about everything we’ve talked about today?   Morley Robbins: Now the website is the name of the movement, if you will, it’s the root cause protocol RCP So the website is RCP 123 dot o RG there are two social media landing sites, there’s a mag Facebook group about over 205,000 people now. And we’ve got a Facebook page all about the RCP. I think there’s like 30 or 40,000. There. So it’s just it’s a mind-blowing set of people. And then again, the book, of course, you go to any platform that you feel comfortable buying from, you’re not going to find it in your local bookstore. This is not good. We’re not quite there yet. There is going to be an ebook version as well as the physical, and there will be an audio in the spring. Hopefully by April as that’s the goal. And people always wanting to reach out, they’re very welcome to contact me by my email, Morley [email protected]. And my phone is 847-922-8061. The website has information about the protocol, the RCP, stops and starts it has information about research that we’re doing has information on the training that we do, the next class or group 15 will startup, I believe it’s February 9, which I think it’s a Thursday, and it will go for 16 weeks going forward. A lot of people find that to be an important stepping stone to incorporating these concepts, whether they are licensed professionals like yourself, or just citizen scientist that wants to make a difference in their community. So it’s a useful way to incorporate the information. The research has all been kind of compiled so people can learn it in bite-sized pieces. And we’re just very excited to have this opportunity to share this information with folks.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, awesome. Well, listen again, we’ll keep it open for part four. And learn a lot on my own. When you do these talks with me, especially with the recycling of iron. There’s some aha that I always get with that. And definitely at the end of the day, it comes down to taking action with the information. It’s not just a feel-good. Hear it. If you don’t apply it, it’s like you didn’t even hear it. So make sure whatever you do with the information, less is more removed the things that deplete your cells ability to breathe effectively. Do the things that help yourselves do that as well and start to get out of the way and see things happen. So morally, thank you so much for everything that you do, and look forward to our next conversation. Likewise,   The post How to Get to The Main Cause of having no Energy Part 3 with Morley Robbins appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health where we teach, exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about their health and specifically adrenal fatigue, so that they can get their health back very, very quickly. And I’m joined again for part two, with Morley Robbins, and we are going to be talking about in this case, we are going to be talking about how to get to the main cause of having no energy. And as you may or may not know, Morley has the root cause protocol. That helps us do that. And I’m excited for part two because we’re going to piggyback from what we talked about on our last call. But just for those that may not know, Morley is the founder of the root cause protocol and the magnesium advocacy group. He’s received his BA in biology at Denison University in Ohio and holds an MBA from George Washington University. And he’s a guess, a reformed health care administrator, although I wouldn’t say reform, he’s now on the other side, as we talk about, and he’s also trained in wellness coaching himself. He has nutritional counseling background, from Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, he’s got his training protocols for doctors. Morley, thank you so much for joining us again today.   Morley Robbins: Absolutely. Delighted to be here. And looking forward to this discussion, I think the folks who are gearing in on this.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah so to piggyback just to kind of if our listeners listening to this for the, as their first one will leave links, wherever this is being listened to, and being able to get access from to the prior one. But what we’re talking about is what I feel is a game-changing, life-changing book that you just wrote, called sure your fatigue how to balance three minerals and one protein in the solution that you’re looking for. And we outlined the first four chapters in our first talk, basically talking about how we’re misled and miss fed the modern health solution for energy, which is anything but how the body makes energy. And then ultimately, the blind spots that doctors don’t have when it comes to the errors in making energy. So maybe just Springboarding from that, morally, in terms of what is the oxidation blindspot so that we can go into now that we know what the cause is? How do I dress specifically that so what is what’s the what’s kind of catch us up from the oxidation blindspot and how the body makes energy so that we can pivot into what do we do about it?   Morley Robbins: Let’s create the right context. Plus, again, we live on a planet that is dominated by two very reactive elements. And it’s important to understand the soup in which we find ourselves. And it was I think, hiding in the debate between pasture and bass sharp particle versus field can pasture was trying to attack the guest, they shot a say, Well, why don’t we strengthen the host? And let’s deal with the field bioenergetic field? Well, what is in this field? Well, the number one element on planet Earth 36% of the Earth’s composition is iron. It’s the pro-oxidant element on this planet. Yes, it does deliver oxygen. Yeah, that’s a good thing. Like a waiter. But if you don’t have a chef to deal with it, you can have a serious problem. That’s the role that copper plays copper is the chef in the cuisine. You can see your hyphen, is I any, but the thing is, we’ve got iron and oxygen. Oxygen is the second most reactive element on the planet. We can’t live without it. We can’t age without it either. And what does that mean? It means that oxygen again, after fluorine gas and fluoride, is the second most reactive element. And therefore the stress. I mean, I think I was probably five or six years into this journey. Now, coming up with 11 full years of doing this research. Five or six years in Joe, I realized what they meant by the term stress. It’s oxidative stress. Oh my gosh. It’s like it was like this ton of bricks. It’s like Philomela Oh my God. Oh, it’s the inability to deal with oxygen. That’s what’s causing All these problems, and the body is geared to resolving and responding to stress. And when you get into the weeds of neurotransmitters and hormones, and I know we’re going to talk about cortisol as the first-line response, it’s responding to oxygen. If it’s not being metabolized properly, if we’re not, again, if the oxygen molecule OTU, if oh two cannot be turned into two molecules of water to h2o, the body’s like, we got a problem. Because it’s a pH that’s required for that transaction is neutral pH 7.0. So that when oh two becomes two h2o, everything’s great, but neutral pH, we can release the ADP, three of them, go over to complex five, and a Wallah, we can turn those three ADP into three magnesium, ATP. And then we have energy that the cell can recognize, and that the cell can work with, get if it’s not spelled properly, it doesn’t recognize it. It does. It’s not ATP, it’s magnesium hyphen, ATP. Very important. We’re down in these little subtle distinctions. So going, Stan, is not necessarily our friend, oxygen is not our friend necessarily. And we’ve got to be able to spell energy, right. And there’s only one way to make energy in the body. It’s called the mitochondria. So it’s important to understand that our physiology has evolved over a very long period, very long. And there’s been this recognition of the volatility that iron and oxygen play, and being able to regulate that. And there’s only one mineral on planet earth that regulates both iron and oxygen. And that’s copper. Amazing. And it’s like, what, what’s, what’s he talking about? And so we’re talking about in the world of homeopathy. Copper is called the General. Iron is called the foot soldier. That’s a really powerful image to the Condra, generals, and foot soldiers. Just before we started taping this, a Joe went into, I think, a very important description of the battlefield, which I’m sure we’ll get to talking about stress, and who’s the field general, and was great. I hope we can bring that back in. But the key is, we’ve got this, we’ve got this general copper, regulating the foot soldiers. But we’ve never been taught that. We never, heard it that way. And, in the average human body, there are about 45,000 milligrams of iron. It’s a lot. But there are only about 100 milligrams of copper. So it’s a 60 to one ratio. It’s like, it’s mind-blowingly. Big. And all we’ve been taught about is that we’re anemic. And that we’re copper toxic. No one’s told us that, well, this copper thing is really important. And if that copper goes from 100 milligrams, the 100 milligrams will fit on the head of one inch stick him talking about just a little tiny bit. But let’s take that copper down to 95 milligrams, or 90. What if we took it down? To 75. So what is a fever? So we go from 98.6 to 102. That’s a 4% differential. And we know how bad we feel massive discomfort with a 4% rise in body temperature. What do you think happens when there’s a 25% loss of bioavailable copper? So six times a fever is like we can’t even imagine. And so then that becomes the basis of the stress is lack of the very mineral that helps us regulate oxidative stress is MIA it’s missing. And that’s not taught in Doctor school. we’re led to believe that there is such a thing as disease. And if you know anything about the Merck manual, it’s like 32,000 different conditions that are described in the manual. But there’s no protagonist. There’s not one word about copper in the Merck manual. Nada, it’s like wow, that’s Just saying. It’s I think it’s very telling. And what I learned this morning, Joe, after sending you that email that we were chatting about. I discovered when I should have known this, but I didn’t. But there’s a very powerful copper key later called Nia coo point. See you PR o INE. And it was developed in the early 1930s. Oh, so they’ve known about this how important copper is for over 100 years. And what’s that on the heels of Oh, in 1931 Otto Warburg gets the Nobel Prize for discovering complex four, which is run by copper. But he called it iron oxidase. So right about the same time that Dr. Warburg was getting his Nobel we’re figuring out how to pull copper out of the body in a very toxic way. And what the article was about was the fact that the process to relax vascular tissue, you know, like our arteries, and our vessel, our blood vessels. It’s copper-dependent. So all the Nitro tiles monitor files that oh, by the way, they gave a Nobel Prize in 1998. For, to figure this, that we need nitric oxide. So give a Nobel Prize to three scientists. Oh, thanks a scam. Because it was a copper deficiency all along. And they, they knew that they knew that in the early 90s. In a 9596, definitive clinical studies. And again, the body is really smart. And the body relies on copper says, hey, you know, my blood vessels are getting kind of tight. Could you relax a little bit? And then copper gets diverted to do that. Again, it’s like, I think there’s a point where the average person’s like, what if copper grids were this important? Surely my doctor would know this. And if copper were this simple, surely I would know this. And it’s been very artfully suppressed, hidden, kind of downplayed, and it’s Matt was talking to a very noted physician yesterday, MD orthopod. Brilliant.   I said, How many times did you hear the word copper in your medical training? He was like I punched him in the face. He said I don’t think I’ve ever heard the word. And there, therein lies the problem. And you probably didn’t hear it in your training either. I’ve asked Dr. Liz if she ever heard about copper at Palmer says never heard about copper. I’ve talked to homeopaths, they don’t even know the COC about the journal. They don’t get the training. I’ve talked to osteopaths the same thing, again, across the board, doesn’t matter what the, what the degrees are after the name, this whole focal point around we’ve got to do something with his oxygen has been suppressed. And the reason why it’s so important is that in 1956 It was Dedham Harmon, who was a Ph.D. engineer, he wasn’t, he wasn’t a doctor, but, but he became a doctor, he went to Stanford with an industrial engineer studying oxidative stress in an industrial setting. And he wondered I wonder if this affects humans. So he decides to go to Stanford to get his degree and discovers what’s called the free radical, the oxidative stress theory of aging, which put the conventional medical system on its ear because no one had ever raised that before. And so this whole idea of we talk about stress and the way I describe it, and I think you’ll appreciate this job, is it all the people that you work with all your clients? They’ve got stress in their lives, right? They’ve all their adrenal Lee, they’re generally burned out, right? Well, we have stress in our world. We have oxidative stress in our bodies. That’s the conserved metabolic response is, oh, I got to do something, and the best definition of stress I’ve ever come across. It’s by Mark Hyman, who’s a very noted functional MD at Cleveland Clinic. Is this is the definition? Stress is the body’s inability to metabolize energy for the mind, to respond to its environment. What a beautiful amalgamation of all these ideas. And if we can’t make energy, that is the ultimate stressor is if we cannot make energy, then we get stressed out. And, and here’s the fine print. And then I’ll turn it back over to you to kind of take us into the next stage. But the fine point is if you are not turning oxygen into water, and the way you do those, you activate oxygen and turn it into two h2o. If you cannot do that, to release the energy molecules, if you cannot do that, the oxygen becomes either superoxide or hydrogen peroxide, or the hydroxyl radical. And when that happens, those are three different categories of oxidative stress. And then that might mix with nitrogen and create peroxynitrite or might mix with sulfur. And then we’ve got, you know, we just have a complete, chaotic mess on our hands. But the point is oxidative stress means I have energy deficiency. And that’s why the book has that title. cure your fatigue, because fatigue implies oxidative stress. And if you have oxidative stress, you do not have optimal energy production. I hope that all made sense as I went through it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That was great. It was great. One of my very first questions after getting the segue from last today’s was, hey, Morley, in your book, you mentioned how we have stress outside of the body. And we have physical and emotional environmental and, and metabolic stress. But, at the end of the day, it all equals oxidative stress. Can you explain that? So you already did I don’t know if we were already on the same wavelength or not. But yes, you already explained that. And I think it’s important to just rehash, like, a lot of people will say, Well, I don’t have a stress life I mentally my family like is not stressing me financially. But there are these HIDDEN stressors that you mentioned, in terms of oxidations. And even in the book, you talk about nutritional deficiencies or other things that are environmentally influencing our body that we may not necessarily have a temperature gauge on consciously but don’t deny or take out the fact that it’s happening in our body. And what’s happening is, is we’re creating reactive oxidative species or free radicals that create a lot of damage. Now, to your point as well, I do feel like when you were with everything that you just mentioned, I in my head, I have this thing that suggests like conversion of one language to another. So you have like digital to analog, or you have the frequencies of the stressors of the world, whether they’re perceived or real, doesn’t matter, because it creates the same process in the body are the same, I guess domino effects in the body. And that was so great about what Han saw you from the research that I’m doing, which was prosperous at the time, like, hey, all of these stressors or illnesses, or diagnoses that are all in their little special little corners of what they are, create the same reactivities in the body generalized reactivities and when in that report that I made, the thing where he went wrong was when he said it was adrenal fatigue or exhaustion and then it just kind of created a cascade of let’s, let’s throw the baby out with the bathwater, and every single thing we do, and just fight tooth and nail for the crazies that say they have this adrenal fatigue thing that doesn’t even exist and it’s insufficiency and it besides the point it misses out on the fact that fundamentally, stress from the outside that gets converted for to a different language on the inside is all about reactive oxidative species are free radicals. And like you’ve said, we’ve evolved so many generations where that oxidative stress is favorable for pathogens that we experience in a bell-shaped curve. But what I think the connecting dots that I get from the copper deficiency is iron and iron oxidation. And the Yin Yang theory is that that creates the sympathetic fight or flight the Oxidants that signal the immune system, get the army to defend the base, and then once that’s turned off, from available copper It switches the signaling of the sympathetic from the iron to turn it on, it has the signaling of the copper to turn it off into the parasympathetic activation. So that’s kind of a little bit of a take that I take right when you tell me this. So with that being said, we let’s talk about how stress, specifically with the lack of copper, and actually, this is probably a really good time to get into how you continue down your journey, and coined the term the magnesium burn rate. Because, you know, for me, I didn’t understand like, Yes, I understand how important magnesium is, but not in the context that if all of that analog information from the environment is triggering a common response in the body, which is to create oxidative stress, get it to a bell curve, deal with the things that are going on so that your body can maintain homeostasis, turn the parasympathetic back on with bioavailable copper, and go on your merry way. That doesn’t happen because it’s like an accelerator in a car that just gets stuck, you can’t take it off, you know, stuck to the floor, which creates a magnesium burn rate. What is that? What’s going on there, and that would maybe give a good sort of platform to begin into those three things we want to talk about.   Morley Robbins: So again, we go back to the energy molecule, it’s spelled magnesium, a hyphen, ATP. What folks don’t realize is that the magnesium ion sits between the second and third phosphate groups. And when we need energy, and the reason why it’s there is it stabilizes that molecule. Magnesium is it does not necessarily provide energy, but it’s a stabilizer it’s very, very important. And when we need energy, we got to leave off one of those phosphates, what as soon as you leave off that third phosphate, magnesium leaves, it goes right into our urine, it’s just it’s a, it’s a biological response to stress. Because back to Heimann, we got to make an energy to respond to stress, when we perceive that there’s something wrong. We are wired as a species. To create energy to deal with it, we got, we got to resolve it somehow. And if we can’t make energy, then we’ve got a problem. That’s when we get into this negative downward spiral. And to stress, as the oxidative stress builds, as the stress in our world builds, oxidative stress in our body builds, the magnesium loss accelerates. And it’s, oh my gosh, there are scores and scores of scientists who have studied this phenomenon, probably the most noted is Mildred Seeley, she was a famous physician, and she was a drug researcher. And when she realized that the drugs that she was studying were causing magnesium was to left Big Pharma to teach about the importance of magnesium. So again, it’s just it’s an end, the mistake that I made a mistake that a lot of people make is that when you lose magnesium, you will get symptoms, you will get aches and pains, you will you’ll you’re going to develop hypertension or whatever, whatever, however, it manifests. And so there’s this very simplistic response, let’s just put some more magnesium in the body and everything we find. And I fell for that for years. I was like, just take more magnesium Damn it. And it wasn’t until I was reading a paper by an Italian researcher who talked about the greatest stress to humanity is iron stress. And that’s what it all clicked. And so the iron is rising. Why? Because we’re not. We’re not burning oxygen properly. We’re not activating it. We’re not making energy. And what happens and this is some very important research. Then, the article I sent over this morning was by Dr. Gatlin. Well, five years before that, he wrote a very important chapter with one of his colleagues’ corolla. And what they did was they took mitochondria, from copper-deficient animals, rodents, to see what would happen, but how do they respond to stress? They are put under stress So what does that mean? They, they created a state of hypoxia. That’s very stressful when you don’t have oxygen. It’s the ultimate stressor. And so what happened was, this is important. This is probably one of the most important things I found in years and years, is what they discovered Culatta and, and veteran. Was iron accumulated in the mitochondria? Oh, oh, well, that’s, that’s not good. Because, because what’s happening is that oxygens not burning, right? So it’s becoming an oxidant. It’s becoming a reactive species, right? It’s becoming a free radical, it’s mixing with the iron, it’s building in the mitochondria. And guess what’s being tripped. All these kinase enzymes that are geared to stress, heat stress, they all got a little magnesium attached to them, and boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, we got all this magnesium leaving the body, all because we’re not burning oxygen, we’re not activating it properly, to create energy. And everything is geared to all of our physiology, all of our metabolism is geared to making energy. And if we’re not making energy, things don’t work, right. And it isn’t just making energy. There’s this symbiosis between making energy, making proteins, recycling calcium, recycling iron, and so on downlighter, they’re about 15 to 20 different functions that the mitochondria are responsible for, and picture, a sophisticated watch with all the gears that are playing with each other. That’s what’s going on in the mitochondria. If these gears work, and these gears move, then these gears for the right way and proteins are getting folded, right? And like if that is, if we’re not making energy, the gears don’t work, right, do they? And suddenly, everything comes to a standstill inside the mitochondria. And the and the iron starts to rise. And it’s creating havoc inside the tissue, and, and who are the first responders to stress her adrenals and her thyroid. But that doesn’t mean that they run the body. They’re their first responders. They’re like the policeman and the firemen. It’s like, wow, if they get called up, that we better pay attention to what’s going on. And that’s the the the mistake that’s been made, and in the healing arts is to create this illusion that policemen and firemen run society. And they don’t respond to problems, but they do not run society.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah, really great information. One of the AHA that I had as well in terms of always thinking about what happens at the 30,000 views, foot level happens at the cellular level first, and then it distills its way down to our systems working together. So it behooves us to get to the quote-unquote root cause versus reductionistic. Lee says, Take this, for that, or this, that for this, to your point, like quite easily in terms of your energy production isn’t happening at the level that it needs to at the demand that it needs to. And as a result, your body makes concessions. And, and or another way of saying it’s not making energy as effectively as it can is is it’s not breathing as effectively as it can it’s not activating hydrogen and oxygen, not only to produce ATP and energy but to produce water. And so it kind of hit on me, okay, well, you have these mineral corticoids, that sense, you know, analog to digital, that things that are happening on a cellular level, wait, we’re not even making water anymore. Now we got a signal, some aldosterone to retain sodium and so that we can so these all and then the other thing that was a game-changer for me for thyroid as well was, I think I might have mentioned this on the last time. But when Dr. Bob Marshall said, Hey, thyroid, all it is, if you want to think about thyroid hormone is it brings oxygen to the cell Morely that was a game-changer for me, because I had never really thought about it that way. And I thought, okay, if it brings oxygen to the cell, and at the cellular level, we’re not making water and ATP. And we’ve already signaled through the HPA axis this release of aldosterone to hold on to sodium so we retain our water. At the same time, it would make sense for us if we’re not breathing accurately, let’s put the mechanisms in place to lower the oxygen, oxygen delivery to the cell as a result as well. And then what gets so frustrating is reductionistic. We know your thyroid is acting incorrectly, even though it’s doing what it needs to do. We’re just going to blast you You know it with more information and forget about what, why, and do that and then to your point in the book, and maybe we can segue into how important cholesterol is. But the logic of bringing down cholesterol, or the logic of also Rula, plasm is bad when it’s high, we got to lower that as well. So, but the first question before we get to that is in the book, which I think is important, too, because this is a reductionistic approach that even some in they think they know, worlds are, hey, I know this is a mitochondrial problem. So let’s just use mitochondrial nutrients, and pump that up much of the same reductionistic approach of supporting the HPA axis at that 30,000 view foot or supporting thyroid at that 30,000 view foot. You mentioned in the book, mitochondria kind of really, I don’t remember the exact words that you use, but you know, it’s not having the keys to the car or the gas in the car. So maybe explain that analogy first. And what that means.   Morley Robbins: This thyroid hormone doesn’t deliver oxygen. It’s an oxygen sensor. Is This, Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Exactly.   Morley Robbins: Right. There’s oxygen being is oxygen being burned, right? And if it’s, if it’s not, if it’s not smelling, right, then I’m going to send a signal back to the liver. We need more bioavailable copper. That’s so endocrinology, and I call an endocrinologist. They have it backward. Everything’s backward. And so everything revolves around oxygen in our body. And so the mitochondria again, I’m having this debate with myself, and maybe I can have it with you because you’re enjoying the world of metabolic insanity. is copper, the brains of the outfit, or the mitochondria, the brains of the outfit, because it’s not the nucleus and nucleolus asst Xerox machine, it’s just, it’s just doing what it’s been programmed to do. And it’s responding to inputs. But it’s not running the show. It’s an idea that nucleolus is like one this is an insult or intellect in our integrity. But the mitochondria is the that is the pulse of the organism. 40 quadrillion of them? Well, how do they communicate with each other? That was it’s a provocative idea. There’s a metabolic pathway and NPK. I don’t talk about it in the book. But that might be a discussion downstream for us. It’s fascinating to get into, the Cain and Abel of the body, and NPK and mTOR. Mind-blowing stuff about that. So the mitochondria are sentient parts of our, our metabolism, they are aware of things being present not being present. And if and if oxygen and iron start to build up, they start to act out. No, they’re the ones that are signaling apoptosis, hey, we can’t do it. Let’s bring this thing down. Let’s bring the cell down. And it’s not just a mitochondrion, it’s like, it might be 500 or 1000. mitochondria have got to somehow align their interests and say, we can’t process the inputs here. We don’t have the magnesium or the copper with retinol. Retinol. That’s it. Oh, oh my gosh, it’s one of the most important components. It’s an electron carrier, retinol, vitamin A that no one talks about? It’s, it’s an electron carrier. Well, that’s a game-changer. That puts things on completed or, or the fact that that one of the derivatives of retinol, the nuclear receptors, AR AR AR XR. Well, if RSR doesn’t hook up with VDR and active vitamin D, you don’t have any vitamin D function. Oh, so then what you’re telling me is that vitamin A is more important than vitamin D. That’s exactly what we’re talking about. And so people don’t appreciate the sophistication of these metabolites inside the mitochondria to allow for proper communication. And, you know, there’s something in the mitochondria that has what’s called the electron transport chain has four different complexes. They’re called respiratory complexes, they are responding to oxygen, and they’re responding to electrons moving this way, and hydrogens being pumped into intermembrane space. And then all of that is supposed to come together and complex to make water so that the ADP can go to complex five, where we can make ATP, magnesium ATP, when, etc. and complex five are working together. It’s called oxidative phosphorylation. So we go from, etc, to oxidative phosphorylation, when the mitochondria say, I’m at peace, I’m in harmony, everything’s cool. If that doesn’t happen, though, you have something called the uncoupling protein inside the mitochondria. And the hydrogens that were supposed to go through complex fines, are going to use CP. What is UCP? It’s the mechanism for inflammation. When the body senses that it can’t work properly, it’s going to channel the hydrogens through there. To create heat. It’s all it’s in the literature use UCP is it’s, it’s a mechanism for generating heat, not energy, there’s a difference between heat and energy. Again, it’s like steam and channeling that steam to move a locomotive or move a paddle on a boat, well, you’re just creating steam. That’s, that’s not gonna do anything for us. And that’s the sophistication on the mitochondria is both a single mitochondrion trying to figure out what’s going on. But then you begin to extrapolate into cellular activity, but then get to a tissue level activity, much less a, you know, the organ level, it’s like, wow, there’s a lot of communication that needs to take place. And this is an important point for people to understand. Then, in the earlier life forms. We evolved I mean, the yeast, that the model for understanding human mitochondria is the yeast mitochondria. So basically, our mitochondria have evolved from yeast, which means that some part of our anatomy evolved from us, right. So it’s like kind of a mind-blowing thought, but the thing is, mitochondria are critical parts of the signaling, and the earlier life forms didn’t have a nervous system. Copper was the messenger to communicate across that organism. Copper is the original nervous system. And you as a chiropractor, and the reason why I admire chiropractors so much is you by the very mechanism of touching people. You are stimulating that nervous system in very powerful ways. You’re down-regulating this, the SNS, you know, the fight or flight response, and you’re up-regulating, rest and recover the parasympathetic. So you’re down, regulating sympathetic up-regulating parasympathetic, which is incredibly important, you know that intuitively, because of all the work you’ve done. But at a metabolic level, people don’t understand the power of your touch, and what it’s doing to improve cellular signaling and communication. And again, it’s I don’t think that’s a, it’s not an understood byproduct of chiropractic, which I think is very unfortunate. Not enough people know about that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, actually, just as an aside, I know, like, one of the quotes I was thinking about is aging from David Sinclair. And it’s a breakdown of communication. Right. That’s what aging is. And then you look at also to that, one of the things that I wanted to talk to you about was, and we’ll probably get it into the next time too, is it an NPK, and the balance between that and mTOR. And how to nerf two and keep one in our antioxidant response elements, or when we’re creating free radicals and our mitochondria aren’t breathing correctly, acts as a sensor, again, to communicate to turn on the recyclability and clearing out or build then because the build is important, but you know, I know in a time and place, but what I was going to say is one of the enzymes that inhibit or slow down that NADPH oxidase enzyme is oxytocin. And oxytocin is the enzyme or the hug drug, right? So you’re touching, you’re feeling that is slowing down that NADPH. That would create a lot of those free radicals if the cells aren’t breathing optimally. Again, there’s a balance between, hey, we need to create free radicals when there’s a proper time in place. But if it’s stuck in the accelerator on position all the time, and that’s causing the magnesium depletion, it’s creating the oxidation, the just running into the ground that oxytocin will inhibit that process. So that’s an interesting connection there in terms of that as well. So, alright, let’s try, let’s go into now. Okay, so we’ll kind of summarize as you said is we don’t respire, we don’t breathe effectively at the cellular level. And we have mechanisms and sensors to communicate at the organ and system level to deal with this. Overcome, that’s homeostasis, and aloe stasis and hormesis. And there’s a certain amount of theory that you want to put your body in per Turborater, under stress, so that you are metabolically flexible, and you are adaptable. However, with that being said, if you don’t have the optimal copper to make this process happen, as well as all the other enzymes, and you’re not exporting iron out of tissues and delivering it to the cells and the organs in the systems, you’re creating oxidation, you’re burning through your magnesium, vitamin A is a very important part about all of that. So on my level, per se, I’m working with people that are exhausted and burnt out. And they identify it as, Hey, I got an adrenal fatigue problem. And then they say, well, better yet an HPA Axis problem, and I say even better yet a cellular energy production problem. But it’s still really great morally, to do a Dutch test and look at some of the enzymes to get a, I guess, litmus test of what’s going on in the body? How far along are we along that continuum, so that we can customize a recovery strategy. And to your point, when I’m playing at five and six standard deviations down the road, it’s all about getting cellular energy happening effectively, again, it stops and ends there. I mean, there’s nothing you can say about if you’re not breathing effectively. And hypoxia is the biggest stressor we could have. You got to restore that. So So I guess the first mechanism that I think’s quite fascinating, is when that magnesium isn’t available. One of the things that our body does is liberate fatty acids. So let’s kind of maybe go down how that is one of the stress consequences as well. So people could be aware of what’s going on there.   Morley Robbins: Very, very important point. Oh, you know, people need to ask why would the body do that? Why would the body be releasing fatty acids? Gosh, guys, we’ve been trained to say, well, that’s going to create heart disease, isn’t it? Like, no. When you understand, let’s go through energy production. Before there was oxygen, we, organisms would ferment sugars. And when you ferment sugar, you’re going to yield ATP. Wow. Okay, big deal. The introduction of oxygen into the equation when we were able to activate that oxygen and, and harness that oxygen it’s about harnessing the oxygen. We went from two ATP up to four burnings if we’re burning sugar, not fermenting it but burning it. We’ve got 34 ATP. But if we’re burning fat 140 ATP, the mitochondria are designed to burn fat. It’s so it’s so obvious. And what’s my proof of that? In 11 years, 1000s of articles, how many have I found that talked about burning fat? How much what the yield is one article 7000 articles, one, one article talked about the importance of burning fat. That’s just that’s screaming proof and people like that. That doesn’t like proof. To me. That’s only one article, though. Yeah, you got to flip everything around. If they’re not talking about it, that means it’s really important. And so now it’s just it’s so obvious. And so with fatty acids get released. It’s a very, man, we’re getting into the weeds here, buddy. I hope people are ready for this. But when you get into fatty acids, it’s going to mobilize a response. And one of the enzymes that have been released is called phosphor. Die esterase to hmm, there was never talked about that. What’s important is that if if you can’t stop Phospho die Astros to you can’t burn fatty acids. Oh, that’s problem p p d two Fosso disaster is two is it’s the brake for fatty acid metabolism, the put on your thinking capital Who do you think stops Phospho digesters to in its tracks and its carbon copper stops that mechanism so that the beta-oxidation enzymes can burn fat properly so that we can restore energy. And we’re going at 140 miles per gallon instead of 32 miles per gallon, big difference, way more weight significantly different than cancer metabolism, which is two miles per gallon. Cancer metabolism is preventing sugars, folks, that’s what it’s all about. And we need lots of cells to make up for the difference, the delta for making two, but we need 140. Well, that means we need 70 times more cells to make up for. And that’s what proliferation is all about. And what’s the break for proliferation, retinol, ding, ding, ding. And what people don’t know is that when you’re taking vitamin D, like there’s no tomorrow. drinking bucketfuls because you’re afraid of some mythical Psyops and you’re shutting down vitamin A metabolism. Therefore, you’re opening up the tissue to cancer metabolism. People don’t know that. But the point is that he asked metabolism is Barnum one of the most misunderstood mechanisms on the planet, especially in human physiology. Because we’ve all been trained, like circus bears to believe that fat is something to be afraid of. Again, we’re back to Rebecca flipping things around everything black is white, white is black. And people don’t realize that that is our friend, that that is the biggest source of energy to allow us to respond to the Hyman quotation, oh, I’ve got stressed, I can’t respond to it. Let me give my mind some energy. So it can perceive what’s going on and come up with a solution. But if I can’t come up with energy, because my adrenals and thyroid are being attacked by the food system, then my mind shuts down. And I get overwhelmed. And then I go into what fight or flight and what’s fight or flight about running from the bear. And what’s it going to trigger? Oh, yeah, it’s going to trigger adrenaline and cortisol, big time. And then suddenly, we’ve got oxidative stress on steroids because these very powerful hormones are designed to move minerals very fast. Again, they don’t run the body, they respond to oxidative stress. And people need to understand that there is this conserved response that if oxygen is not being burned, right, because that PDE, too, messed up fatty acid metabolism, because it’s missing copper because it’s not in the diet, or because I’m losing it, because of ascorbic acid or high zinc intake or 15. Other things we could talk about, oh, my gosh, I didn’t know all that. And that’s the beauty of these conversations is people need to appreciate that there’s an elegance, and an enormity to this, but there’s a simplicity to it. And that all of these cells that we’re worried about, are responded to. It’s so important that you grasp that that under stress, fatty acids get released. Oh, wow, that’s important. But the average person would say, that doesn’t sound good, when in fact, that’s the beauty and the wisdom of our physiology saying, I know how to make energy in a big way. But I need a catalyst, the beta-oxidation enzymes run on copper, and you cannot absorb copper in your diet. If you don’t have fat in your diet. You think Ancel Keys didn’t know that back in the 50s. And so if you don’t have copper in your tissue, you can’t metabolize fat, it gets released under stress. They go Bongo that’s it. Does that make sense?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it just it points to the simplicity of if your body at the foundational level especially at the survival level does these things to survive, then those would be the inherent functions or systems of the body that we want to preserve and learn from and not reductionistic Lee think it’s broken and we could pharmaceutically repair that and so what I think about even just three examples of that, as what you just mentioned is under stress, we should be able to get into beta-oxidation, to yield more energy to overcome the stress, because ultimately all stress is energy-dependent because of oxidation. So that’s number one, which in this case, again, is copper-dependent. The other one, which maybe we won’t talk about too much today, but is when the body is under stress. And there are all these oxidation radicals and the cells aren’t breathing. Effectively, magnesium is being depleted irons overproduced or consumed and stuck and not moving coppers depleted all of the above, then our body creates more cholesterol to use as a sinkhole for those oxygen radicals and then up Nope, we got to get rid of cholesterol because it’s bad. And then, of course, there is the, there was another one in there that I was going to use that I had forgotten about. But that’s okay. So it’s just amazing, though, as far as one of the things that I like to teach too, is that concept of metabolic flexibility, and being able to have the ability to burn different fuels. And the irony here is one of the main things that trigger the PDE to or the enzyme that stops the beta-oxidation from happening right away is processed foods and refined sugars and insulin going off the rails, which already kind of predetermines that you’re not going to be able to get into beta-oxidation because you’ve messed that up. It’s kind of like, on the one hand, you’ve created the need to get into beta-oxidation, for the same reason that you can’t get into beta-oxidation, right? Your body is doubly fighting to get in there. But that’s in that book. I’m not sure if we talked about it off the air in terms of the metabolic cool and how Robert Lustig talks about those three enzymes, like he puts those three enzymes together, it says the PDE two, then he talks about camp K. And then he talks about mTOR. And really, those should be coordinated in such a way to preserve survival, right, and in this case, know when to grow, and repair and build, and then in other ways know when to turn off and recycle and clear out. And based on not having fundamental bioavailable copper. And all the reasons why it’s being depleted will create that disharmony and that disharmony ultimately, you know, as another way of saying dissonance or having an incongruency between the messages that are being sent and the responses that are being yielded as a result of those messages being synced, creating even more internal strife and more energy. And that’s the tough part is, how do you break that mechanism? How do you put the mechanics the wrenches in the mechanics? Oh, it is getting in the weeds. So let’s bring it back out of the weeds and talk a little bit about we have a root cause protocol in your book. And like I alluded to last time, yes, it’s great to have an income. And yes, we want to make sure the cells are breathing effectively. But in your stops, which I think are simply brilliant, are the things that we need to stop doing that maybe with good intentions, we’re doing it but sometimes no good intention goes on punished. And we’re making energy production, cellular respiration, free radical production, all worse. So what I guess, the Genesis and what are those stops normally. So if I’m listening to this, and it’s a bit above my head, but I kind of can’t get the concepts of, hey, this is great information. I realized that I’m exhausted and I’m tired. And I don’t have enough magnesium. I don’t have enough bioavailable copper. My cells aren’t respiring properly, what’s this 12 stops or I don’t know if it’s 12 now or 15. But what are they in? What’s going on there?   Morley Robbins: Yeah. Get into that. Real quick. quickly respond to what you’re referring to three key PD. I don’t know that he would talk about this. I have I’ve got the book but I’ve not read it. But PDE two is stopped in its tracks by copper by bioavailable copper gotta have that. Very, very important. NPK is activated by copper. They don’t talk about that much. There’s only one study again one study that goes into it was a rabbit study. And the conclusion was man and PK is running on the energy of copper Important to know that and then third, and mTOR stopped in its tracks by copper. And so again, you’re picking up on the importance of energy production. That’s really what this is all about. We got to be able to make energy consistently, efficiently, endlessly. That’s what life is all about. So the reason for the stops again, people always let me give with what’s that expression? Credit words do? It was a conversation with my oldest son, Matt. He’s a, he’s an electrical engineer, smart cookie. And he was beginning to pick up what I was beginning to focus on. He said, Well, Dad, you know what, I think you need us to do this. Don’t do that. I was like, Oh, wow, that’s a great idea. Well, that phrase, do this, some do that became stops and starts. And what was the focal point of the origin, that the true origin of the root cause protocol, again, Truth in Lending, was an article by Ray P. Brilliant, lipid biologists guy’s genius? And his article on Iron toxicity. I don’t think that’s the right title. But it was about the downside of iron, too much iron. He talks about, towards the end of the article, he says, to my knowledge, no one has ever developed a diet to increase the production of pseudo plasma. And Joe, when I read that, it was like, I put my finger on a light bulb socket, like, whoa, that’s what I’m going to do. And, I mean, I’m very grateful to him for that phrase, you know, no one’s ever developed a diet. And it started as to how do we increase Biovail Copper, as defined by so Reuleaux plasma? Because that’s the blue protein. It’s the master antioxidant in our body that nobody knows about? No, no doctor that you went to, is wondering, Gee, I wonder what their Surulere plasm status is as, especially as they’re examining a blood test or a Dutch test or urinalysis, where they’re not thinking about, gee, I wonder what’s happening to the oxidative stress in their body? Because there’s not enough rule plasm? But, but the point is, it started with two stops and two starts. How do we, what’s the most important thing that we can do to stop?   Dr. Joel Rosen: The erosion of the real person was iron, I bet then stopping at value number one, stop, right?   Morley Robbins: Number one was learn and score because, okay, then the starts, you know, we need, we need magnesium, and we need retinol. It’s like, let’s wait, you know, if people just did that, oh, my gosh, to make those two changes. But as I got into it, the stops, I began to look at the world through the prism of energy. What is killing energy production in our mitochondria? What’s changing the ability to activate oxygen and turn it into the water? So we can release energy? And it’s, that’s a completely different lens to use. And most practitioners who are into this, if this then that they’ve been, they’re just very prescriptive in there what we if you had that symptom, then you must do this. It’s like, well, let’s pull it back. Let’s open up the curtain and say, what’s happening here? What, why is the body responding this way? What’s the Meccan? What’s the metabolic mechanism that’s creating these symptoms, the pain, the inflammation, they, whatever the ache in the joint or whatever it happens to be, and understand, where did it come from? If there is no disease, people need to understand that there is no medical disease. It’s just a story. But what does exist is stress-induced mineral loss, which then leads to metabolic dysfunction. And what I appreciate you all is that you, you do understand it. So you, you, you now see it from that frame of reference. But what’s happened is people have become trained and certified, and then recertified that they keep going back to the internet as their source of information, which is a scary place to be. And I recognize I’m on the internet and let conversations on the internet. So yet, you have to have a certain sense of judgment about it. But the thing is, iron is not your friend. Supplemental iron is poison. And if you don’t believe that, read the book by Jim Moon iron the most toxic element. It’s he was an iron toxicologist. And he has information in that book that’ll make your toes curl. And this idea that there’s iron deficiency anemia. It’s one of the biggest lies on the planet. Although by, by in terms of, of importance, the World Health Organization says, iron deficiency is the number one nutrient deficiency on planet Earth. Wow. What’s, what’s the number one enzyme deficiency? G six PD? Well, wow. And then you find out that G six PD has magnesium-dependent? Well, that begins to change things around a little bit. Because what does iron deficiency mean? means I am stuck in the tissue causing magnesium loss. It’s not showing up in the blood. So it looks like it’s low. And that that iron stuck causing magnesium was is causing G six PD to misfire. Wow, we’re, we’re at the very essence of the problem. And so we’ve got to deal with the iron. And then the whole mindset on planet Earth is I need more iron, I’m anemic. And, and I’ve got to, I’ve got to get it stored. You don’t store iron? You, you use it, you recycle it, you’re moving at constant, you’re circulating iron. It’s a constant. It’s gotta be it’s like a juggling act. Do we want the juggler to have, all the pins up in the air? Or do we want to say well, in his arms, let’s just anyone could do that. And we can hold all the pins. But but but let’s talk about keeping the iron in constant movement throughout the body recycling inside the mitochondria. And one of the key findings and we talked about a little bit ago, colada and Caitlin. Oh, well, if we’re not making energy, we can’t recycle iron.   And it starts of sorts to build up with and the mitochondria start to bloat with iron. I think that might have been the start of what celiac was finding that all this tissue was expanding what’s the, what’s the stress response? The be alarm state, right? Then we have resistance, right? And then we have collapse of the body just can hold on anymore. So the whole thing that all the tissue swells he saw was a 30,000 animal experiment. All these organs would grow in size. We get it we’re back to mitochondria breaking down mitochondria swelling, fluid is building up because it can’t be properly recycled. And it’s like, we’re back to simple concepts here. So then we’ve got, you know, ascorbic acid. Well, we take ascorbic acid, because we’ve been told that it’s going to increase our iron. It’s like, well, maybe it’s going to drive it into the tissue, which is not really where you want it. And what’s it going to do. And in addition to that, it blows up sumo plasmin. It’s in the literature is there are a dozen or more articles about it. So this rule plasm blows up, copper comes leaking out. And then the spotlights, I’ll say, well, copper is the cause of the problem. Oh, copper causes cancer. It’s like, Oh, my God, it’s like, there’s the whole field, the phalanx is of physicians who believe that and so ascorbic acid is metabolic poison to the soil plasm protein. So then, if we don’t have copper, inside, it’s protein regulating iron, well, then iron will begin to get stored in bigger and bigger levels. Well, then we’ve got calcium. People have been trained to take more calcium, Oh, I must have more calcium. And because I have asked your opinion, I have asked you a process. I have this, I have that. And so like, wait a minute, why does the calcium keep coming out of the bone matrix? Why don’t we start there? Can we talk about the fact that the acid phosphatase enzyme that breaks down the bone matrix is activated by iron? That might be a good thing to talk about. And that its opposite is alkaline phosphatase, which builds up the bone matrix is activated by magnesium. Oh, wow, that’s I never heard that. And so then suddenly, we find out that 46% of the body’s copper is found in the bone marrow. Oh, wow. That’s, that’s, that sounds like it’s really important. Well, it is because copper is really important for ascorbic oxidase. It’s not it’s not just a plant enzyme. It’s a human enzyme. It’s really important for the bone matrix. Lysyl oxidase needs to knit things together, collagen and Lesson. Oh yeah, we got to make energy, the process of making bone requires energy. So maybe that cytochrome c oxidase would be a good thing too. And those are just three that we can quickly enumerate. And so what is calcium do? Calcium taking as a supplement. But what key dye was able to document in 2013? At Vanderbilt University, was it when you have twice as much calcium in your diet as you have magnesium, that’s the ratio of every supplement you’ve ever taken to the one, it starts magnesium absorption. And what guy Abraham, a world-renowned OBGYN taught at UCLA Medical Center, found is that when you have twice as much magnesium as calcium, you ensure calcium absorption and utilization. And, and key dye was able to verify that as well. And so we’ve can, people don’t know about those studies. They just know that, oh, my doctor told me I need calcium. Or my doctor told me I need vitamin D. And what is vitamin D? It’s calcium on steroids. People don’t understand what that phrase means calcium on steroids. It means that every hormone, and that’s what vitamin D is, it’s hormone D. Every hormone has a specific site of action. And a specific job-specific site is the intestine. It’s its job to absorb calcium at the expense of magnesium. Oh, and so what people need to appreciate is that when the calcium in their blood panel looks slow, or high, low, or high, it’s a clinical sign of magnesium deficiency. Calcium is regulated by magnesium. Iron is regulated by copper. Vitamin D is regulated by retinol. People don’t know that. , those fundamental metabolic truths have been very artfully suppressed. And if you’re if people are trusting what their doctor says, what their neighbor says, what their best friends are, they got to rethink it. Because we live in a very unstable time. Now. It’s, it’s interesting, we would call it would be appropriate to call this time, Byzantine, we’ve been trained to think that Byzantine was a chaotic empire, when in fact, it was a beautiful empire where there was order, Law and Order was its exact opposite of what we’ve been trained to believe. The Romans, those are the people we should be questioning, you know, the bread and circus, you know, give them bread and circus and they’ll be fine. Well, we haven’t evolved from that. We’re, we’re back at Bread, bread, and circus. We’re being entertained on TV. And there, they’re feeding us and we don’t see it. It’s so it’s so subtle. So the stops are, are going after all of these sacred cows of nutrition. One another one is a daily multivolume. People take a daily multivitamin because they think it’s an insurance policy. I’ve got all my bases covered. They don’t realize it’s a death certificate. That all the ratios are wrong. It’s all synthetic. The B vitamins come from coal tar derivatives. But people may have heard that phrase called Tartarus. What does it mean? Well, when you begin to pull the curtain back, you find out there are 10,000 different components of coal tar derivatives. Here’s the mind-blowing part. They only have names for 5000. It’s like, well, how do you know that there’s another 5000. But you don’t have names for it. It’s like, and that’s where all the B vitamins come from. Oh, and what’s called are derivatives. It’s a byproduct of the petroleum industry. And whose idea was that? Rockefeller, that’s where it came from this idea? Well, we’ve got an industrial waste product, let’s turn it into medicine. And let’s make B vitamins out of it. It’s like, these synthetic B vitamins that people take are affecting their iron metabolism and messing with their copper metabolism. But people don’t know that. It’s again, it’s all lost. And so there are just some real important components of the nutritional paradigm. Another one is zinc. Oh, I, I need my zinc. I’ve got a cold, right. I gotta. I gotta stop there. I got to stop that cold and I got to stimulate my immune system. Oh my gosh, the confusion around that is just frightening. And what does and I’m a big meat eater. I don’t want people to think that I’m some kind of pristine A little brat, I love my meat. And that’s a great source of zinc. But that’s a different kind of zinc, from my standpoint than what you get in a bottle. And so the zinc in a bottle is going to trigger very important protein in our it does in our intestinal tract. There are these, we’ve, we’ve got, let’s pretend this hand is a is it a terrorist site and these are the villi, right? But that in between the villi are our mucosal cells, you mucous, mucosal cells make mucus, and the mucosal cells, they’re smart. And when they get exposed to the food is coming in up here, and it’s going to go get processed through the internal site. And then this is the bloodstream sound here. But when suddenly comes in with zinc. Nickel cell says, Oh my gosh, I better make some metallic tiny. It triggers the production of telephony. And people don’t realize that by doing that, they’re binding up copper 1000 times stronger than their binding of zinc. So effectively, what you’ve done is you’ve taken copper offline.   And Tara site enterocyte. Has mitochondria that must have copper. If they can’t make energy. Guess what happens to the enterocytes, they start to pull apart. Because it’s a magnetic attraction based on energy production. They stay together, there’s, there’s, there’s integrity, to energy. And when and when energy production is at its peak, that the cells stay together, and then the proteins can’t slip through the cracks. That’s what is driving all this gut dysbiosis is a rabid misunderstanding about what does it take to make energy? What does it take to support the miracle cells, and what do miracle cells thrive on? Copper, they love copper. This is there’s like, any kind of mucus in the body has a relationship with copper because it’s the first barrier between the outside world and our intimate world. And it’s got to be processed so that there are so many different facets. But what happened last year was someone concocted this COVID cocktail, ascorbic acid, vitamin D, and zinc. And people didn’t realize what that was doing to their copper status, the bioavailability of their copper status, and it was sending it into the sub-basement. And then you add the fear factor on top of that, they wouldn’t get that into a subsequent conversation. People need to know about the emotion of fear, and how fear creates hypoxia. And then hypoxia is going to shut down energy production. So you have this double whammy of a cocktail and an emotion that is perfectly designed to kill energy production. And why is that important? Because the immune system runs on energy. The immune system is an intelligent sentient being that’s got to be monitored. Hey, what’s going on? What’s happening? Well, I know what it is, I got to respond to that. And that takes intelligence. But intelligence takes energy. If you don’t have energy, your IQ just collapses. So there are their other stops, but I think people began to get a sense of, Wow, maybe there is more to the story. Maybe the things that I didn’t know about that. It isn’t just this rote memorization of must take, you know, 10,000 milligrams of ascorbic acid must take 5000 I use a vitamin D must take 50 milligrams of zinc, that that that isn’t really in your best interest. And they’re not enough people talking about that I appreciate the chance to have this exchange. And it’s just that people don’t realize the level of programming. And Doctor, listen, I just went to see the matrix, part four, and mind-blowing. People need to watch that movie, you need to understand the level of programming that’s out there. We’ve all got that, that cord in the back of our neck, and we don’t realize it as we’re watching TV, or as they’re watching this video or that video on YouTube. All they’re doing is just programming our thought process and our response. And we like oh, yeah, I know that they can’t fool me. Well, if you took the cocktail, and you’re and you’re in a state of fear that you take the soap seriously, then you’ve been snookered, and people don’t know that. So, you know, we could go on and on. But those are, those are important aspects of the stops. But don’t do this. That allows the body to make more energy To respond to the stress and the environment, or the, the, whatever the external threat is, an argument with your spouse, an argument with your boss, car accident, fell down a flight of stairs, I’ve got a lousy diet, and so on. And the internal stress, oh, I can’t make energy as soon as the body and then the system, and then the organ, and then the tissue, and then the cell when they can’t, when they realize we can’t make energy. There’s a hierarchy of responses. And I think that’s what I appreciate you all is that you understand the micro battlefield versus the macro battlefield. And there are different chemicals involved, depending upon what the level of abstraction is from the site of the problem. So just something for people to be brief like.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s great. It’s so a lot was said there, Morley. And so ultimately, the title of this podcast is been changed over the years from your adrenal fix to the truth about your health. And I think the truth about your health can no better be encapsulated by what we’re talking about today. Ultimately, your protocols are the root cause protocol, the title of this series is the main cause of having no energy, all the same thing in terms of your cells aren’t making energy effectively. And for the mineral metabolism that’s not being taught and the oxidative metabolism that’s not being taught and basically how to make energy, how that’s not all being taught. And ultimately, we have the ability, the great news, and how complex and sinister things are. There’s a lot of easy solutions, as well as you can attest to and what you’ve seen with what you’re doing on an on a coaching level and an on an organizational level, and hopefully a world level as well, that there’s a lot of things you could be doing. And with the stops specifically are stopped doing things that are draining your batteries or that are depleting the imbalances that aren’t allowing yourself to breathe effectively. And some of them are sacred. Most of them are sacred cows and they’ve been engineered purposefully to be those things for very reasons we can get into on another conversation but iron, vitamin D, multivitamins, zinc, vitamin C ascorbic, especially high corn for fructose, high fructose corn syrup, having high carbs, low fats, molybdenum citrates, these things are things that will low fluoride will lower your ability to breathe at the cellular level more effectively. One of the things that kind of what I like about this is that I do get into the weeds when I work one on one with my clients. And I feel like where I was focused on is a part of the solution of what you do with the root cause protocol. It was just deeper in the weeds, and I wasn’t using the right reference point. So I’ll give you an example. This is how I got to where I got to okay, I’m burnt out exhausted. I heard about this thing called adrenal fatigue for myself, only to find out that it’s not real and doctors don’t believe in it and they marginalize you, and they make you feel wrong. And just because you’re coming with the wrong term, but it doesn’t deny the fact that you’re exhausted, you’re tired, you’re burnt out. And I then looked at the fact that it’s an HPA Axis dysfunction, and it’s the perfect storm of having the environmental triggers that make some people with genetic susceptibilities, more likely to have a breakdown of their energy production systems in certain expressions. So some people might be autoimmune neurological issues, joint issues, GI issues, depending on where those genetic susceptibilities are whole other story, combined with the perfect storm of environmental triggers, create those 30,000 view foot symptoms, knowing that it goes deeper than the adrenals it goes into the HPA axis. So what I came up with is understanding the HPA axis the H part of the hypothalamus gets stimulated by the nervous system peripherally and centrally. And it’s quite amazing the whole new field of neuro Immuno and the chronology and all of these inputs that go and stimulate the HPA axis, but ultimately do it via mast cells. And then mast cells stimulate the HPA axis, and then also that releases histamine which causes a cortisol release So forth and so on. And then I got into the point of well, anything that stimulates the mast cells is going to stimulate a really important enzyme called NADPH oxidase. And that NADPH oxidase will produce superoxide, hydrogen peroxides. As a consequence of that, all of that if you’re listening to it, and you have no idea what I just said, that you don’t have to worry, because, at the end of the day, the point of reference is wrong. The point of reference is, you don’t have enough bioavailable copper, and your cells aren’t breathing effectively. All the things I said, just a couple of moments ago are still true. But it’s a lot easier now for me to explain how to help people without having to get into the weeds like that. Because the point of reference is different, you just need to focus on preserving your Surulere plasm, and your bioavailable copper and not depleting your magnesium and making sure that your iron is moving and your cells are breathing, so that all those funky things I just said aren’t happening. Right. So that’s kind of the genesis of where we are. And I think that’s good to segue for our next conversation into the starts. Because there’s a lot of things that we could be doing from a point of view that can assist all of this, and then the nuances of what you said with the relationship of stress and hypoxic things, the relationship of energy and frequencies and wavelengths. How important that is. Anything else though, you want to add to what I mentioned there, Morley.   Morley Robbins: I just Just real quick, I think you brought up a very important nuance that needs to be underscored. And we’ve been, again, we’ve been trained, we’ve been programmed to think that there’s Booyaka disease out there. And it’s really scary. And we’re doing our best our level best to take care of you. But there are just forces out there that are just so great. Weak, we don’t know, we don’t understand this or that, when in fact, if we’re not making energy, the body falls apart. It’s perfectly designed to fall apart. And, again, 100 milligrams of copper goes a long way. And there’s a thing, I’ve resisted the idea of making a product for over a decade. And finally out of frustration, when I really when I began to realize all of this research was hinging on this little pivotal mineral, I finally said, Okay, maybe we need to make a product. And so we’ve got recuperate, you know, it’s out there, and it’s a play on words, recoup, gets it to recuperate. And so people need to realize that, that it defies logic. It’s like, Wait if it’s this simple. Why do we have these hundreds of 1000s of doctors, whether they are in your Vedic medicine, or homeopathic, or allopathic, or chiropractic or you name it? Why are they chasing all these symptoms, when in fact, if we could just get the cells to make energy, all the symptoms would go away? And it’s, it’s a fair question to ask. We’ve, we’ve, we’ve so overblown, the problem, this, this, this stress-induced inability to make energy has become systemic. And it’s, and it’s creating all sorts of problems. And now it’s creating genetic problems that there are there’s no gene-disease. Again, it’s, oh, they’re light ones. Oh, yeah. It’s epigenetics. So methylation is not working, right. And, and so the methylation, the epigenetics is running the genetics, know, what’s running. What’s running, epigenetics is energetics. As soon as, as soon as the methylation pattern begins to get clogged with oxidative stress, it starts to create a different response. It’s like, it’s so basic. And again, understand that oxygen is at the center. It is at the center of this whole dynamic and getting people to appreciate there’s only one element that works with oxygen. And he made a very important point about what we were talking about when we’re not making the energy. We’re gonna make the exhaust the oxygen oxidative species, but there’s a whole cascade of antioxidant enzymes superoxide, dismutase, catalase, glutathione, peroxidase, para oxidase, and others that are all copper-dependent. Again, Mother Nature designed us to be able to deal with oxygen, to create energy requires copper, to neutralize exhaust or to clear exhausts requires copper, combat the enemies that require copper too. And it’s that elegant. And it’s that simple. But it’s not taught. It’s not the focal point of a doctor’s training. Why? Because it kills the business model of medicine. And there is a business model. And people need to appreciate I think, I think more people understand that, as we’re looking at the financial reports of certain companies. Now, post psyops, we’re being to see some big money has just been made in the last 18 months. And so people need to internalize. What does that mean? And it’s, it is important too, as I think I put it pointed out in our first conversation, people need to be asking better questions. And people need to be demanding that our answers and this wrote, If this, then that, that is kindergarten medicine. If your practitioner is not putting your situation into a context of energy deficiency, and they don’t understand what’s going on in your body, that’s the most important function, that is, if the energy paradigm is not what’s ruling, the conversation with your practitioner, you better go find a better practitioner. I think it’s that simple.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That does sum it up. And, you know, as well, if we are not eating processed food, and we’re eating, I say food that our grandmother or great grandmother would recognize, I still believe that we’ve, we’ve sowed so much from the soils that we don’t have as many minerals that you could maintain at a level that you need to effectively. But that being said, in adulthood great nutrients that man didn’t make in a lab, but we made from the earth that is complete with these as much as possible minerals, and vitamins and fibers and all the things that we are a head start, of course, removing refined sugars and processed foods is super key, I’ll just say from a professional stamp, but I’ll still play at the third and sixth-degree levels just because I liked the idea of understanding where the weak links in the chain do break. And then also understanding where the other inflammatory contributors are for making those oxidant radicals. Especially for a lot of people that I work with one, we see a lot of commonalities where keep one is an enzyme that when it releases, signals the antioxidant response elements. A lot of people have major weaknesses in the or it’s an upregulation. So just typically what happens, I explained to Morley that genetics is kind of like and I have to be careful who I talk to because my younger clients don’t understand this, you remember those credit card processing machines where you would put the card in the machine, and you would scan it over and transparency would come out. When we have polymorphism or I don’t like the word mutation, but a, you know, an alteration in the language, the card goes in sideways, you make the switch, and transparency comes out at fewer amounts than the times that you’re doing them. That of course is an under regulation or down-regulation or not producing as much but there are up to regulations as well keep one is an up-regulation. And what we found is that my analogy in the explaining it is the pin in the grenade that you take out to detonate the grenade is stuck harder, it’s upregulated in there, so you can’t release it. And what that when you release that pin nerf to then it’s like the sprinkler system. And another analogy is your waterways where it senses the fire and it releases the elements. It doesn’t stop there, though it nerve to also helps to upregulate not just the signaling, the production of the utilization of the recycling of and if that pen isn’t coming out, I tell people like you’re oxidizing iron and you’re sitting at the side of the fire with the police or the 911 not calling you. Even when you get there, you’re not turning on the hose. And that creates major, major, major challenges. And then what we find also is when that depletes a lot of the NADPH it doesn’t allow us to recycle those response elements as well. So there’s a lot of interesting, you know, ways where when you do play at that genetic level, you can see, hey, we have some challenges here, which would make copper unavailability that much more challenging for you. Or we see that also these other variables like calcium channels with EMFs are going to leak into the system more. And there is such a thing that you’re not a weirdo and you need a tinfoil hat, but you are more sensitive to EMF, so it helps me at that level. But yet, it makes it so much easier. Hey, Mrs. Jones, because I used to, I would go through the report, the important thing for you to know is, which I’ve always said, you are not making energy at the level you need to, and the book here kind of made it that much more hireable for me, to give it that much more digestible marching orders for them. And I thank you so much for not just my practice and ability to help people at a higher level, but be able to have a tool for people to go to, to be able to understand what we talked about today. So we’ll keep it open for part two, part three, if you’re willing and able, I’d love to do that. And I guess for the people that want a list of the stops and starts because you’re so gracious and you have that available, where can they go and get that?   Morley Robbins: Yeah, the website or CP 123 dot o RG RCP for root cause protocol, RCP 123 dot orgy, you donate your email, and we will send you the 50-page manual. It’s a handbook on the root cause protocol. And within that is a series of charts. There are stops and starts and a recommended daily regimen just to give people some basic information. And then, of course, people can also go and I’m mightily impressed with that copy of cure your fatigue. You’re going through that, aren’t you?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, my dog has didn’t even eat it. So me   Morley Robbins: Oh, my coffee isn’t even that borrowed yet. But I appreciate your spending the time with it. But people can get that book from Amazon or books or Barnes or whatever your favorite one line? purveyor is, you’re not going to find it in bookstores physically, it’s just not Yeah, give it a couple of years. And I think we’ll have it in a few more dozen conversations with Joel, we’ll get it there. But then there’s also going to be an audio version in the spring going to be working on that. We’re excited about that. Because a lot of people like to listen, they don’t always have time to read. And then I think people are going to find that there’s a lot of information. They can join the there’s RSVP community. And then for the real, the real diehards can always take the RCP Institute training, that’s a 16-week program that is developed over the last four years where we’re starting group 15, in February of this year, and I think people will find that their questions will get answered in that training. And it’s touching it’s beginning to blossom. Typically, we’d have like 30 to 50 people. Last class 14 was 99 people. And we’re preparing ourselves for about 150 to 175 in group 15. And that’s really where we need to be I I’ve committed myself to train 10,000 practitioners, we’re at about 500. So I’ve got a little have a little bit of a Delta to squeeze down. But I think we’re going to get there. Because I’m not going to kick the bucket anytime soon, at least not that I’m aware of. And I’ve never had so much fun, but I’ve never worked so hard in my life. But I think there’s always new information that’s going to come forward. But what I appreciate about these conversations is the dot-connecting, I think you have a gift for helping people go, Oh, wait a minute. So that connects to this connects to this. Oh, now it’s this is where the real magic is, and this back and forth is to begin to take these concepts that are in the book and then apply it into your clinical practice where people can say, Oh, now I see what the connections are if that’s a very important download of information for the masses. So I appreciate that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I appreciate everything that you do. And I always say like success leaves clues and even if people don’t want to donate their email that you even have the stops and starts on the website anyways. I guess you just have So I look forward to part three and wish you and your loved ones a happy healthy holiday season a new year and then I looked forward to reconvening and going down maybe even a little further down that hole. So until then, Morley we’ll talk to you soon.   The post How to Get to The Main Cause of having no Energy Part 2 with Morley Robbins appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the truth about your health where our mission is to empower 100 million exhausted and burnt out men and women by teaching them the truth about their health so that they can go from exhausted to energized. And no more is the truth about health, exemplified in the works of our next guest, who it is a pleasure and honor for him to be here today and give us information about how to get your energy back. His name, of course, I’m sure you all have heard of him is Morley Robbins. He is the creator of the root cause protocol in the magnesium advocacy group. He received his BA in Biology from Denison University in Ohio and holds an MBA from George Washington University in health care administration. And he’s been training, wellness coaches, nutritional counseling, and Functional Diagnostic Nutrition, but most importantly, has a really what I feel is a groundbreaking sacred cow tipping book on how to go about curing your fatigue. So without further ado, Morley, thank you so much for being here today.   Morley Robbins: Joe, it’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you for that very kind introduction. And I’m sure this is gonna be a conversation that will be long remembered. I think it’s just our phone conversations have been scintillating. And I’m sure this will be no less than what we’ve had in the past.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I appreciate you being here. And it’s always great to fill in the gray share areas when I’m on my path of understanding the information and like yourself wanting to make a difference in people’s lives. And I know your mission is to refine, re redirect, and redesign health. So people that are suffering can ultimately get answers. And by having conversations like these, and telling the truth and exposing it and having the courage and I would say to you, thank you so much for your work, because a lot of people don’t have the instincts or the wherewithal or even, I guess the gusto to want to, to prove that. And interestingly enough, just to kind of go into your background for people that that don’t know your story, you are in health administration for many years, which seems kind of antithesis to what you do now. So maybe explain to the viewer before we get into how much you’ve researched and where you have arrived at and the genesis of your book and outlining the actual content of the book, which is our goal in this three-part series to go through each chapter and help the listener who’s exhausted and burnt out, get energy back, start with your story as How does someone who might be interpreted as being on the other team? Or on the other side of the fence? How do they get into this site? What was the journey? Or what were some of the pivotal moments morally in your health care? Journey?   Morley Robbins: Great question. I’ll give people a quick thumbnail sketch I grew up in a very sickly family. My mom was an alcoholic. My dad was a manic depressive with schizophrenia. And, and that’s a tough household to come into a lot of illness. And my sister just recently passed, by the way, thank you for an evening of thanksgiving. God bless her, and she’s in a better place. But she had her health struggles for many decades. And by the grace of God knock on wood. I seem to have circumvented a lot of that. But my sister was a nurse. So I was supposed to be the doctor. Right? You know, and then I get, to college. It’s like, Whoa, this is this is hard. There’s a lot of work involved. And I didn’t do well in college that gives it away for the real fine. detail. I kind of BA in biology. That means I wasn’t I didn’t have the academic horsepower to get a BS. That’s an important clue for people. I’m sure if people saw my college transcript, they’d say, How does this guy know how to spell iron? Much let’s talk about it. But in any event, there is a plan. And if you don’t get into medical school, which I did, obviously, and has been adverts physician down in Lubbock, Texas is worthy. It’s a blessing you didn’t get indoctrinated. because it allowed me to be a free thinker, approach it a little bit differently, but I decided to go into business and become a hospital executive. And then consultant, as you said, I was working on the other side for many years. But I knew something wasn’t right. What I was good at, I was good at forecasting, you give me some data, and may and I could tell you where it’s going. And through a series of projects, I began to forecast the incidence of chronic disease, this was back in the late 80s. And then again, and it was probably 2000. It’s just Joe, it was frightening what was happening to the incidence of disease. So I decided I couldn’t, couldn’t stay on the sidelines anymore, and decided I was going to be a wellness coach, whatever that meant. And I’d spent 20 years as a consultant, pulling a suitcase behind my back, going through airports, going from coast to coast, solving problems, helping hospitals get bigger and better and better. And finally, my body said, we’re done. And I couldn’t lift my hand above my waist was my shoulder was frozen. As a chiropractor, you understand that dynamic. And I was encouraged to go see Dr. Liz. And I said I don’t do witchcraft. And they sold me some supplements. I came back a couple of months later, I was miserable, couldn’t sleep as in a lot of pain. And finally, the owner said, Look, we love you. Go see Dr. Lewis. Well, Dr. Lewis is now my wife. And it was a transformational experience. Because in two sessions, I had complete rotation. And I was like, what just happened? And to lose, use the phrase that I’d never heard in 32 years of working in the hospital field, the innate healer. I thought to myself, I didn’t say anything to her, I thought to myself, if there’s an innate healer, why do we have hundreds of 1000s of doctors around the world, that that didn’t make sense to me. So I quietly set out to discover who is the innate healer. And that’s really what the book is about, Curing your fatigue, is letting people know that there is an internal process that we all are endowed with if we have the right diet if we’re supplementing the right nutrients. And if we’re not doing what quote, they are telling us to do, it’s a lot easier. And it’s been a magical transformation I never would have imagined 15 years ago. So let’s say, Morley, you know, when you’re in your late 60s, you’re going to publish a book on how to cure all diseases, but how to overcome all energy deficiency? And, and really, what what, what’s really behind it the nucleolus, I think you what you’re good at Joel is asking the critical questions to get at the essence of it. But the essence of what’s behind the root cause protocol, is I want to democratize healing. I want everyone to have access to what Mother Nature intended that we would have all along. And that’s to bring ourselves back into balance. And when we’re able to produce energy optimally, and you understand what that’s all about. And that’s, you’ve got to have good adrenals you got to have good thyroid function. But what you got to have, you got to have good minerals, to drive the metabolic process to make that energy. And it’s been a, it’s been a magical experience, to build a Facebook following and now publish a book and then have a chance to talk with folks like yourself in you know, this is a pinch me is this real moment, I’ve never had so much fun. In my life, I’ve never worked so hard, you know, every day begins with two to three hours of research, you know, starting at five o’clock and trying to hit the ground running. But it’s been a phenomenal experience. And I’ve been able to connect a lot of dots that it’s out there. And again, that goes back to my core strength which is I’m good at connecting dots. And that’s really what’s allowed me to have this I guess, awareness of what happened and what we need to do to solve it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no thanks for sharing your background, there’s a lot of commonalities that I can relate to Morley, my mother was an alcoholic. And my family was traditionally trained medical doctors and I’m not a real doctor. And as well as the fact that I would add on to when we first talked on the phone to set this conversation up. We talked about having a good batting average, and meaning when you do get to the foundational as everyone is looking to do with the root cause Hey, I realize I’m not getting I want to get to the root cause I want to get to upstream mechanics of not just putting a pill for the ill. And ultimately when you do that, you get to have a higher batting average. And you help more people, which I would imagine from, from what you’ve told me and what I know about you so far, that that’s probably more than anything more rewarding than anything else to see the improvements of people and who get it who’ve been frustrated and who have not been taken seriously who’ve been marginalized, who’ve been even condescended and scoffed or laughed at. And they’re the difficult people when in reality, just like people, scientists that are forward-thinking and are way ahead of their time. They’re always criticized and condemned until eventually, they’re being ahead of the curve catches up with everyone else. And so anyway, I want to thank you for that. And so with that being said, getting into your research, and I’ll just kind of give the listener how I got into and came across your book was my health journey and understanding that I suffered from stress-related over overstimulated can’t focus can concentrate anxiety crashing in the middle of the day circadian rhythm imbalance. And I had finished my undergraduate with exercise physiology. I finished an undergraduate in psychology. I finished the doctorate program in chiropractic. And here I was Morley probably over $250,000 in debt. My wife was pregnant with twins, she had to go on bed rest. We almost lost them. And I was tired. I was just graduated, I opened up a new business in another country, I had a debt. And here I was raised, waiting for twins to be born. And I didn’t realize that there is this term called adrenal fatigue. And I thought, oh, my gosh, if there’s this thing called adrenal fatigue, which has my picture as the picture boy of what it is of what it described, only then to realize that it’s not accepted. It’s not a legitimate diagnosis and going down the own the same rabbit holes that potentially you did when you heard the word healer, I kept refining and refining and refining to understand that it goes so much deeper than the adrenals the HPA axis as it works as a system. And ultimately, I tell people, as you well, no cells become tissues become organs become systems. And if your system is not making enough energy, because that’s really what it’s about, as we talked about earlier, you fit but by definition, fatigue means you don’t have enough energy, then something must be happening, not just at the system level where medicine is very reductionistic and symptom, treating and pharmaceutically approached, but at the cellular level, where we’re just not making energy effectively. So why don’t we start with if that’s what you arrived that 12 years ago, and started going through the research and you’ve written this book, in terms of cure with the see you with a square around it? Why don’t we kind of start from that and, and at the cellular level, what’s happening for us to not have energy effectively?   Morley Robbins: No, I think it’s a great place to start. Again, everything on the planet hinges on energy, right? You know, I spent several years in business well, there’s a famous saying, in business, nothing happens until a sell a sale is made. Nothing, you gotta get to sell something to have a business right? Because you gotta sell something to have revenue. Well, nothing happens in the cell until energy is made. It’s the same concept. And you know, I did the training with Jerry Tennant who’s a classically trained MD down in Dallas Texas ophthalmologist he’s he’s the guy that perfect laser surgery   in the system and he hasn’t heard reinvent his metabolism, he had to pay to do research and get back to the basics. And he said, If I can get one cell to work, I can get them all. And that inspired me. And so I got into really studying Where Where does the energy come from. But they’re called Purple bacteria. They go way back in time, back to the beginning of oxygen on the planet. And that’s a whole nother discussion. You take red and blue, you get purple. And so it turns chemical transfer. There’s what’s called the inside the mitochondria are three basic steps. You’ve got glycolysis. Yeah, what’s called the electron transport chain. We’ve got four complexes, but they’re called respiratory complexes. This is where breathing takes place. So the respiration with oxygens takes place. Most important is a complex form, which we’ll talk about, and when it’s attached to, etc, the electron transport chain, that then becomes what’s called oxidative phosphorylation. That’s right, what’s he talking about? But all we’re doing is we are making sure that we’re making ATP. And various mitochondria go through to allow that to happen. And the mitochondria have a little pool in the center. It’s called the matrix pool, while the leading scientists referred to as the copper matrix pool, Paul carbine, and Auburn University, the guy who figured out in 2004, there are 50,000 Atoms of copper in that pool inside the mitochondria, it’s like, wow. And then you begin to understand these electrical transactions that are taking place with our copper department. And then we come to complex for or that’s the one where oxygen, it’s being held by a heme protein assay called a catcher’s mitt, to load it up with electron spotter, what’s like, wow, that’s sections on planet Earth, because what most people don’t realize we agree, but we can’t live without it. We can’t age without an either. And so the oxygen, it’s the second most reactive element on the planet, after fluorine gas, or fluoride, we know it as but after Fleury oxygens, second most reactive element, and it needs to be managed very carefully. And there’s only one element on planet earth that does that. It’s called copper, copper takes that oxygen turns it into water. Copper takes what is called reactive oxygen species, which are given off in the process of making energy. it neutralizes them. It makes them okay to be with copper also, this is most important people, for people to realize that in the sea of insanity that we find ourselves in post COVID Not a lot of people are talking about the immune system. Well, I’ve got 52 articles that demonstrate and prove that copper runs our immune system because the immune system is based on intelligence. Gotta recognize what’s out there, gotta mobilize the response. And intelligence, as you well know, is based on energy. Prefer low energy, we’re just we just can’t think right? Well, our immune system is energy-dependent. It’s copper-dependent. And I’ve got articles from 2008 that prove that copper kills SARS, COV. Two, so it’s just I get all of that has been pushed aside. And the thing is, copper combat enemies, that’s amazing. It creates energy, clears exhausts combat enemies. That’s a nice, that’s a that’s an incredible array of functions. For one element that most people think is toxic. Most people, the meme that’s running the planet, the medical side of things, is you’re anemic. And you’re copper toxic. And, and that’s not true at all. That is the exact opposite. Because we are all copper deserts. Because we follow the Western diet. Most of us didn’t know that they had suppressed copper in the sun. Oil suppressed its presence in plants and animals. Well, our tissue doesn’t have it. And then we take medications that attack copper. And we can have that discussion at some point. But the thing is, we are copper deserts. Well, critical research from 1928 at the University of Wisconsin, heart, steenbok, Waddell, and LVM. Prove that if you deny copper to an animal, iron will accumulate in its liver. Well, that’s a big deal. I mean, a liver, it’s, it’s like command central, inside our metabolism. And 500 Enzymes depend on proper liver function, where you start loading and full of iron doesn’t work the same way. And what does iron do? It suppresses copper to function. And that’s the work of Jamie Collins and his team down at the University of Florida in Gainesville. Some amazing research has been done about this dynamic between copper and iron, that people just need to blow up this idea that they’re anemic. Because there are two positions that I take pretty strong positions. One, there is no disease, there is no medical disease, it doesn’t exist. But there is stress-induced mineral dysregulation that causes metabolic dysfunction. And so adrenal fatigue or, you know, hypothyroidism, or whatever terminology we want to use, those are just two catchphrases to describe a set of symptoms, that are all expressions of energy deficiency, because minerals are missing and energy can’t be made. So there is no disease. And I’m pretty strident about that. But the second is, there is no iron deficiency anemia when this planet again, people think Wait, oh, that’s the World Health Organization tells me that’s the number one nutrient deficiency on the planet. It’s like, well, at this point, you should know better than the breather. Who, but the thing is the number one element, the number one element on planet Earth, 36% of the Earth’s composition is iron. It’s something iron is the Master Pro oxidant on this planet, and what happens with iron interacting with oxygen? We call it rust. We know what rust is, we know a rusty nail rusty pipe rusty car. Well, that rusting process takes place inside our bodies when we’re not managing oxygen and iron. And guess who does that there’s only one element, we’re back to copper again. And that’s the part that that basic, foundational understanding of what mitochondria do has been lost to the ages. It’s not taught in Doctor school I, I would gladly give you $100 Every time you heard the word copper in chiropractic school, I bet I would be shocked if you even heard its words, I could lose a lot of money if I if you went to the right school, though. But no, it’s just I think it’s it’s a term and then gets into the Coppa enzymes. And these are, this is a whole parallel universe that I never knew existed. You know, even when I was a biology student, I don’t ever remember studying minerals, that wasn’t part of the formal education. And, and it is doctors about their degree, their MD degree, that it stands for mineral denialist. And they don’t know what minerals are. And I think the other glaring challenge that we have is, and I’m sure you bump up against this all the time in your work. And your practice is that the world has been trained to think in hormones. But hormones don’t run the body. They don’t. It’s amazing. Every hormone that exists is made from an enzyme. And 100% of the enzymes inside our body require a mineral catalyst to make it work. These hormones don’t say, Well, I want to make some more of myself. It’s just it’s incredible. Where where are these critical reactions taking place? Inside mitochondria? Suck. It’s like, oh my gosh, and we’re back to critical minerals like magnesium and copper, and who’s the bad guy iron, and nothing will kill the adrenals faster than too much iron in the diet. And you know that as well as I do. So I think people have been misdirected. And so we’ve been taught to focus on hormones. And we’ve been taught to focus on the nucleolus Well, that’s where all the defects are. And there’s this big body of knowledge about how we create energy and what the meticulous steps are, that has been kind of pushed aside so that people don’t aren’t aware of the real engine that drives our energetic process. It’s been a phenomenal process of discovery for the last 11 years.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there’s so much that you said there in so many different ways that we could go Morley with that. And one of the very first things that I think of is in what you do, I think it’s either in your introduction, or somewhere near the beginning of the book, where if a doctor has a patient that comes in, and they can’t help them or haven’t been able to help them, and they try something on their own, and they come back and tell you, Hey, I’ve had a lot of success with this, there’s kind of a two-part response that could happen is the well, you know, continue doing that. And I don’t want to know anything about it. Or I want to know about it, because I took an oath, to help people. And so I have that mentality of if I don’t know something, I’m not insecure, and say, Well, I don’t want to know about it, or I don’t have the holier than thou, it’s wrong. And I’m right. Besides which the evidence and the research are so substantiated, that you can argue it. And these are universal laws. And it comes down to what we’ve learned in terms of energy production. And it begs you to look in the mirror as a provider, and say, Hey, like, maybe I don’t know, everything that I could know, maybe even, in fact, I’ve been making recommendations that have in the elbow, I wanted to help this person wasn’t the best recommendation at the time. And so you learn and you understand. And so that’s, that’s kind of how I got on to, again, copper. And I noticed with a lot of the clients that I work, and as you said, I do a lot of six, six sort of standard deviations in terms of, hey, let’s look at all of these different aspects and ultimately led me tell you, why do most people that I have challenges with have an iron challenge genetically, and a copper challenge genetically, and they’re exhausted, there’s got to be something there. And there is something there. And it makes sense to the concept of what you say. And ultimately having iron not get out of tissues is a sacred cow that you’re addressing in terms of just because you’re iron dis dysregulated. Or if you have low iron in your blood doesn’t mean you have low iron in your body. And you could store up to 10 times more iron in your tissues than you can in your blood. So anyway, as far as one of the things that I would kind of defer back to now is though, in the organization of your book, you use two words called misled and miss fed. And I guess the segue to that would be, why don’t we know about what you just told us? Why do we not look at energy production from a, from science, like we learned in high school? Because that’s we even though like you said, Well, before we got on the call, the old way was educated with the one cell one mitochondria, it’s the power plant, and that’s evolved so much further. The question is, why or why are we not? Why don’t we know this? And what do the words misled and misread have to do with that?   Morley Robbins: Great, great direction? Um, there’s no money in a cure. It’s very simple, you know, there’s, there’s no money in dead people. There’s no money and healthy people. Right? So there’s a lot of money in people being less than healthy. So here’s a sharp example of what led to this idea of being misled in this fed. There’s a very famous physician named Paul Ehrlich. He, he worked he was fascinated by immunology as a med student in Germany. He graduated in 1888. To give me a sense of his timeframe. He wins the Nobel Prize in 1908. It’s amazing to think what he was able to assemble him in 20 short years, but in 1892, four years after he graduates from medical school, he uses something called methylene blue. It’s an industrial dye, but he uses methylene blue To cure people of malaria. Now, this dye was developed and invented in 1876, at BASF industries in Germany. And when they call it when the that Ehrlich had done this, they said, Good on you, Dr. Ehrlich, we’re going to make it better. So again, he uses methylene, blue to cure malaria. It’s gone. So BASF refines it, and turns methylene, blue, into hydroxychloroquine. And now, if you get malaria, in the modern age, you’re treated, not cured, you’re treated with hydroxychloroquine for the rest of your life. That’s what that’s the difference between 1892 and 2021. We live in a very different world. And we have been misled about where the focus of the of opportunity is, let’s call it what it is. If the goal is to, is to get well, if the goal is to stay in balance the store if the goal is to generate energy. You got to be careful what your sources are. Because there’s a lot of misinformation on the internet. And it’s not that people are necessarily malevolent, it’s just they don’t know they’re parroting back what they learn. But when you go into the source documents, again, a very important conversation I had several years ago was, you know, don’t focus on what’s a new focus on what’s enduring. That’s really what got me back to the research of 1910 1820 1930. And it’s a different world than the modern era. So so we have been misled about contemporary research as basically paid advertising. I mean, it’s just people don’t realize the moneyed interest behind the research. I think they have a better understanding of it today.   But the Miss Fed is, I mean, there have just been massive changes in the world of agriculture. In the world of food processing, I mean, something as simple as NPK, nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium people, farmers have been using that for over 100 years. Well, guess what it does? It, it blocks the uptake of copper by the plant? Well, then, you know, we go into the modern era with glyphosate, Roundup. No, there’s no, there’s no more perfect copper key later on the planet, then Roundup, it, it’ll key like copper, l to a pH of one. And who taught me that Stephanie Senath, at a breakfast meeting, back in Chicago, about three years ago, it was an interesting conversation, to get her insights about this ubiquitous farming chemical that’s used everywhere all over the planet. And people don’t realize what the cost is. So are we are being misfed, both in terms of what we’re being told is the problem. But this fed in terms of the quality of the nutrition that we’re exposed to is, it’s a, it’s a far cry from what our ancestors knew. And it’s, you know, at the end of the day, we should be eating food, that’s real. And it’s not real anymore. And you know that as well as I do. And it’s a challenge for people to kind of come to terms with that, oh, my gosh, I mean, my favorite, whatever meal is, is not helping me. And it’s just getting people to wake up to the cold hard reality that we’ve got to put a lot of effort into making sure we’re, we know where our food is coming from, do we know the source, and we spoke to the source, you have to know the farmers that are providing your food. It’s not an easy task to do that, but go to farmers’ markets, or find a way to go to Whole Foods, identify what the farm is producing, at particular food calm and find out what they’re doing to feed the soil. What are they doing to feed the animals and get a sense of what’s going on? And is that more work? You better believe it is. But you’re going to have a lot more control over what’s going inside your body so that you have a sense of certainty about what you’re doing to ensure your good health. So misled, Miss fed just, I don’t know, it came to me before a presentation is served me well over the years because it helps people crystallize where the problems started, and how they keep enduring on a day by day basis.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, again, there’s a lot that you said there and the first thing that comes to my mind is later in the book, which we’ll probably talk about in the next time we talk but just to reference it in terms of Weston A price and how his goal or he went across the world and looked at indigenous countries or indigenous people, and found that they had immaculate arches and teeth development. And this was because they had amazing soils and amazing foods that were replete with nutrients and minerals and also had healthy fats and lots of copper obviously, and animals and all of the things in between. I went on to research a little bit after that, and they’re up until I think the 40s or 50s, in the curriculum, of the dental school, was, was nutrition. And, and then up until a certain point, it kind of comes to a crossroads of those preventative suggestions keep us in business. Right and now you sort of are greeted with a smile and a lollipop after, as a child with a dentist, right? Because after all, they’re their bad guys. And they got to, you know, give you a needle or pull a tooth. So here’s a lollipop Wink, wink. But at the same time, that’s what keeps them in business and why, you know, unfortunately, do we have to get rid of a curriculum that would prevent the problem? And I think that’s a microcosm of what you just said, right, in terms of being misled and miss fed.   Morley Robbins: And yeah. People know Hal Huggins is a famous dentist that people may have heard of the love work with mercury and things like that. Well, he inherited Dr. Price’s research on root canals. And I was actually at a conference where he was there, he was present, I got a chance to shake his hand and thank him for his work. But people don’t realize that the level of, I guess dysregulation that can start with a dental visit. And in fact, I think Dr. Huggins wrote his book, it’s all in your head because he’s what he figured out was, but 80% of the physical problems that people have, start with a visit to their dentist, and they don’t realize that they’re not, they’re not thinking about that, you know, the tooth that needs to be pulled or filled or whatever, it can lead to all sorts of mineral loss, and mineral dysregulation, and then energy loss. And it says, of course, back to Jerry Tennant. Every one of these teeth of ours is connected to some Oregon system, thanks to traditional Chinese medicine. And so there’s a very tight connection between our Oregon Health and our teeth healthy and they’re communicating with each other. It’s amazing, as you will know. And it’s just getting people to realize that there’s more to the story. It isn’t this, this programmed response, you know if this than that, well, that’s just a narrative. And there’s so much more to the story. And it’s far more simple than people realize. But it’s also enormous in its significance. So it’s just getting people to recognize that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and just finalized that dental profession. A lot of another mentor that I did a lot of research, and followed his work was a doctor named Dr. Robert Marshall. And he talked about the that there’s probably no greater profession that created more harm to our health in the dental profession. Because number one, the fluoride number most reactive, you know, element on the planet, but then mercury on top of that, and then, but anyway, that’s just a side note. So as far as the next topic, I guess, we would talk about is the fact that, okay, well, I can accept that idea that the body makes energy. And that’s ultimately what I teach people as well. Morley is is like, fundamentally think of it very easily. As you said, when you think about it easily, you have a demand and supply problem, and you’re not producing energy at the demand that your level your body needs. And as a result, it’s going to make decisions based on the available income that it has. And I and which we’ll get into later to which I want just to make sure you’re aware of this question coming up is nothing happens until you have a sale. And until you have a sale, then you’re in business. However, with that being said, as we get into the actual root cause protocols, the majority of your emphasis is on decreasing overhead, right, and not increasing income. Let’s Right. So that’s your, your main emphasis too. So that there’s a lot to be said with that in terms of, you want to make sure you get enough income coming in to meet some demand. But you also want to make sure I tell people, hey, as your business consultant to your body, it’s much easier to lower your overhead and reduce the expenses of the things that you’re using up valuable energy for that you automatically are ahead, a penny earned as a penny, A penny saved, or penny saved is a penny earned. So I think that’s important, for sure. But here’s the thing, let’s kind of talk about the free radical, free radical aging theory with oxidation. And quite simply how, because there’s a couple of things I want to ask you as an adjunct to that question. But let’s just start with that theory, in terms of the free radical theory of aging, your either is quite simply, like you said, combining hydrogen and oxygen to produce water or ATP, or you’re not, it’s that simple. You’re either producing energy effectively, while at the same time reducing exhaust and inflammation, or you’re not, or you’re producing inflammation and exhaust and not the amount of energy. And I tell people, the analogy is like, imagine you working with me for a week. And at the end of the week, instead of me giving you a paycheck, you have the luxury of paying to work for me, and it’s adult, that’s a double negative, right, on the one hand, you should be earning an income. On the other hand, you’re paying an expense. And in this case, because you’re not creating energy, you’re creating inflammation, it’s causing costing you money for that process while you’re not making the energy. So anyway, why don’t we get into the free radical theory of aging and explain what that has to do with the root cause? Protocol?   Morley Robbins: Absolutely. I think it’s a love the overhead analogy, I love that it’s great, thank you for sharing them. People need to understand that that the mitochondria, it’s a, it’s a two-stroke engine. That complex for that. So important. Its formal name is called cytochrome. c oxidase. And that’s where oxygen gets turned into water. Very, very important transaction as we’re, as we’re recognizing. But when you get into that complex, it is a two-stroke engine, there’s there are many different steps in it. But a downstroke is to create hydrogen peroxide. So it turns oxygen into hydrogen peroxide, then the upstroke is to turn that hydrogen peroxide, h2o two into two molecules of h2o. And that requires energy to do that. And if there isn’t copper, to do that heavy lifting, it doesn’t happen. What is hydrogen peroxide, it’s another way of saying inflammation. Inflammation is just a dysregulated mitochondria that are making H two O two, and it’s not making two molecules of h2o. So people need to know where that inflammation is coming from. And so the key is making sure that people realize that this mechanism is that basic that in terms of making sure that we’re following through there, we’re there, we’re producing the energy that we need to. And so the key is, is breathing that process for our entire body. It’s like, it’s kind of fascinating to think about the magnitude of it. And the essence is making sure that that there is copper in our diet, and that we can make that conversion on a consistent and efficient basis in the body, throughout the body throughout the tissue, and in the cellular structures. So the focus though, unlimited, that’s come back to your specific question, you wanted to drill into the exactly what was the real target   Dr. Joel Rosen: was more the free radical ah, there Yeah, right.   Morley Robbins Thank you. So the free radical theory of aging comes by way of a very famous physician. His name was denim. Harmon. Harmon was a, he was an industrial engineer. He was setting oxidative stress in the industrial setting. And he had a Ph.D. And he decided, I wonder if this if these concepts that are so prevalent in the industrial setting, I wonder if they apply to humans, he decides to become a doctor. But he doesn’t just go to medical school. He goes to Stanford, it’s like oh, my God, and in 1956 he publishes this article on the free radicals. theory of aging. What was very controversial this idea, because what it introduced, this is a really important part for people to understand that up until that time, all disease was vulgar, vulgar bad, it was outside your body it was invading it was, you need to be under threat and undertake. And what Adam Harman exposed was we’re producing the free radicals inside is in the process of making energy. And that’s destabilizing our homeostasis. Well, that was a very heretical thing to propose. And it was hotly debated as you can imagine. But in 1969, a very important breakthrough took place at Duke University. And Joe McCord and his faculty advisor, Erwin Fedorovich, who just recently passed away just last year actually, Dr. Fred Ovitz passed away. Famous research physiologist, but discovered a very important enzyme called Superoxide dismutase, s OD, and there are three different forms of them. But the one that they found was called S od Roman one. It’s got two atoms of copper, one atom of zinc, zinc, and structural coppers catalytic, there’s a difference between catalytic and structure. And when they brought that research forward, suddenly there was confirmation of what Dr. Harmon had been talking about in 1956. Well, then, on the heels of that research, Dr. Harmon published an article in 1972, on the free radical theory, inside the mitochondria, which is, you know, he’s building momentum. And then what’s amazing is that it is 90 A year of living on the planet. In 2006. He does an update of his free radical theory of aging. And that’s it. These are just phenomenal articles to read. But what it does is presents a powerful premise for what happens in the process of aging. And what happens to set the stage for symptoms. Because from cradle to grave, we’re accumulating certain minerals, and we’re losing other minerals. Well, what do we, what do we accumulate? Well, we’re accumulating calcium and iron as we age, what are we losing? We’re losing magnesium and copper as we age. Whereas, where’s the crisscross? Around the age of 40? What’s an indicative sign that we’re, we’ve got mineral dysregulation, we have to go to the eye doctor to get our either get glasses or get them upgraded. You talk to people, when did you get those glasses? It’s usually around the age of 41 when it kicks in. And so the with the eyes go, therefore, there go the body. But the thing is, especially, guys, we’re magnets for iron from cradle to grave, we have an enormous capacity to take on iron. Why do women outlive men? Two reasons why they’re smarter. And they have had a monthly blood loss for 40 years. And that, that dumping of iron is what allows them to not be exposed to so much oxidative stress. And what is oxidative stress, we’re back into the mitochondria, the iron and the oxygen are not being regulated properly. And what’s a very important premise for people to understand is that the mitochondria, the mitochondria are the terminal destination for iron and oxygen. And if they’re not regulated and managed their properties, if the oxygen is not being turned into water, and if the iron is not being recycled into heme groups, or iron-sulfur clusters, inside our mitochondria, by copper directed enzymes, if that’s not happening, then we are going to build trust. And then we’ve got the start of metabolic dysfunction. It’s a fancy phrase, or that’s a fancy phrase for energy deficiency, as you noted, and as the energy deficiency builds, it becomes more and more symptomatic. And so people need to realize that this idea of free radicals, and again, I just think the terminology is phenomenal, free radicals Hey, have as many as you want. They’re free, right? No free with the world of science is filled with these quirky little phrases, free radicals. But what they should be saying is, these are incredibly toxic chemicals. They’re very reactive inside our body, and they’re meant to be regulated by enzymes that have copper batteries, but that’s the part that no one knows about. And so people may know about oxidative stress. What there are three stages to oxidative stress. It’s a, it’s a continuum. It’s, it’s a spectrum disorder, if you will, oxidative stress starts as hypoxia builds into what’s called inflammation. And then its terminal destination, something called cytotoxicity. Well, so their toxicity is just a fancy way of saying cancer. And inflammation is just to find a funny way of saying hydrogen peroxide. Well, what’s the problem at the very beginning, again, we’ve been taught to believe that hypoxia means lack of oxygen. No, now we’re not at Mount Everest. And the only time we’re at Mount Everest is when we’re inside our mother’s womb, the amount of oxygen there is very tiny. That’s a topic for another discussion. But hypoxia is a lack of bioavailable copper, to flip oxygen into the water. And if it can’t do that, you’re going to make what’s called superoxide. That’s an oxygen molecule with an attitude, it’s got an extra electron that gives it a real big punch. And then the superoxide is going to be turned into hydrogen peroxide. So again, those are, those are classic. They’re also called oxygen. So you’ve got oxidative stress, oxidants, free radicals, they all are referring to the same chemicals. And they’re all supposed to be regulated inside the mitochondria, and ultimately inside the cell. So they don’t become too exhaustive, get it exhaustive. And so people need to recognize it. When we’re eating the right time, when we’re taking the right nutrients, when we are stopping the wrong nutrients, which we’ll get into I’m sure in the subsequent conversation, that our body has a natural ability to regulate itself. And we’ve been trained. Again, back to misled this miss fed, we’ve been trained like circus bears to believe that our bodies are powerless and that we must go to the priest to get some synthetic chemical to bring our body back into balance. It’s like, no, that’s just not true. not true.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and following that up is this if you equal or remove the disparity between demand and supply, and you’re producing enough energy to meet the demands, your body knows what to do with it. And so I guess elaborating on what we talked about earlier, Morley before we got started was the micro trip chip of the mitochondria. And how I believe as you’ve mentioned, with that micro trip, how important it is to regulate the programs that are being run by the computer, and there’s no more sophisticated computer than our human body. And, and what I think should also be elucidated is the fact that we should have it when we have oxidants or accidents with oxygen radicals happening, we should have, it does help us. Not all radicals are bad, per se, like if we have hydrogen peroxide, being able to be spilled off from cellular respiration, it communicates with your immune system to attack pathogens effectively. And that’s where we regulate homeostasis. But the problem is, is that copper is deficient, so it’s not there to regulate that microchip effectively. And then you have that continuum just kind of become an avalanche that rolls downhill and gets bigger and bigger and bigger and doesn’t get turned off. ultimately creating a mixture of that hydrogen peroxide with iron, which creates the never good no purpose whatsoever, hydroxyl radical, which is getting a little bit into the weeds. But what is happening for it for Denham to call it aging, like why like those free radicals if they’re not contained. And, you know, you and I have talked about Bob Miller and Bob Miller is a six you know, decimal point or a standard deviation guy, but one of the sayings I love by his is we’ve learned everything that we could learn as effectively in Goldilocks and the Three Bears with not too little, not too much, but just right. So so what is it about that I mean, you don’t want to take antioxidants to the cows come home so you don’t have any exhaust because that regulates your immune system provided copper is available to turn it off, turn it on, signal, coordinate, do everything that it needs to do with it.   But then at the same time, once that iron does get trapped in tissues because of lack of bioavailable copper, and that doesn’t get x Dick dealt with effectively in too much exhaust is happening. Now you have these nasty hydroxyl radicals. What happens for that to cause aging? What is going on there?   Morley Robbins: That’s great, great question. I mean, the aging, aging process, or aging itself. It’s just another way of saying iron accumulation is a lot of research about that. I mean, the work of Douglas Cowell or Gutteridge and Halliwell, or Robert krypton, and the Netherlands, I mean, some big, big names have been studying this. And there, they’re the ones who came up with this idea that we accumulate one milligram of iron. Every day we’re on the planet, folks get your calculator out, put in your age, multiply it times 365, you’re going to get a big number, it’s gonna be five digits. And under ideal circumstances, women should have 4000 milligrams of iron, and the guy should have 5000 Men can hold more iron, we have more testosterone, which allows us to handle that iron. But we live in an iron-enriched world. Everything is fortified with iron and calcium, and vitamin D. And people are not stopping to think about, well, wait a minute, what happened to copper, and magnesium, and retinol? Why are we talking about those three, an hour, all we’re worried about is iron, and calcium, and vitamin D. And it’s like, it’s out of balance, everything. I mean, the problem is, we are designed, we are designed for homeostasis, here’s a really powerful image for people to get in their mind. I’m sure many of your listeners have been on a boogie board, it’s got that ball in the center. And you’ve got to use energy in your legs to stay in balance, right. And if you’re on the board, and you’ve got your energy going, everything’s fine, you stay in balance, the minute you release the energy, it’s going to go one way or the other. That’s when people are sick. That’s when they have, quote, disease. They’re either here or they’re there. But when they’re healthy, they’re in balance. They’re in homeostasis. And that requires energy. And that’s why the energy deficiency is so endemic. It’s the signal that it’s the very first event to start the aging process and the so-called disease process. It all starts with energy deficiency. That’s the work of Douglas wall’s famous geneticist at Children’s Hospital of Pennsylvania. And just to build this image for people so they understand what’s going on. Let’s go back to our high school biology class, and open up the textbook to see the picture of the cell. And when we look at the picture of the cell, there might have been one or two, maybe three, maybe three mitochondria. Well, that’s not how it works. You know, we have 40 quadrillions, that’s 15 zeros folks. We have 40 quadrillion mitochondria. In our body. The average cell has 500. That’s a lot of mitochondria per cell. Try to picture that. But the average liver cell 2000, mitochondria, kidney cell 4000, mitochondria, heart cell 10,000, the mature egg and a woman’s body. The number of mitochondria is 600,000. Now have we have neurons in our brain. They’re as long as my arm. So picture this three, three feet, or three feet long. And they have 2 million mitochondria. We can’t We can’t even get our head around that. It’s like oh my gosh. And so we’ve got to appreciate that. The presence of mitochondria in our body is vastly different than what we were trained doubly. But then we get to the terminology itself. And if we take the classic work of say, Dr. Colin Bach, a famous German. He was a physiologist. Studied the mitochondria. He would call it an energy factory. That’s we’re back to the high school biology textbook. Well, then let’s upgrade it. Brian Glancy at NIH. He’s a very up-and-coming scientist and he refers to the mitochondria as the power grid. That’s a different image, a good energy factory. We got a power grid. And, and the pictures in his articles are phenomenal. If you’re not familiar with his work, Ryan Clancy’s 2015 2017 2019 Amazing pictures are in his work. But then I was reading an article just the other day.   Like, they’ll tell ski BL to WS KR 2018. And he was talking about mitochondria, and something called the uncoupling protein, which made a very important reference to the fact that mitochondria are the energetic, metabolic redox reduction-oxidation redox information signaling centers of the cell. Wow, that’s a very different image. We’ve gone from an energy factory to this very sentient part of ourselves. And then yesterday, I was reading an article by Dr. Rulez. From 2021, just a few months ago, as the role of copper in the mitochondria. And she used a phrase I’d never seen before, she referred to the mitochondria as biological microchips. Wow, wow. And so we, you know, you and I are graced to have computers that are working, thank, thankfully, knock on wood. And the motherboard of our computers is running on silver, that these machines do not work. We can’t have this conversation if we don’t have enough silver in our motherboard. Well, it turns out how the motherboard our metabolic motherboard runs on copper. And no one told us that. And so it’s a very different understanding of it, it’s all of its connected. And there’s a program that runs all these mitochondria. It’s amazing. It’s called an NPK. There’s an actual mic there. That’s the program that runs the microgrid or microchip of the cell. And it’s every mitochondrion. And it’s like, there’s like an OH MY GOSH moment when you realize that, that there is a metabolic program that’s running our vitality, an NPK Oh, and there’s a bad guy program called mTOR. And I know Bob Miller knows all about inventory love to talk about mTOR. And he’s gifted at talking about mTOR. Well, how do you activate mTOR? Iron? How do you activate Amtk copper? And so it’s just, and these are the Cain and Abel forces in our body. And people don’t realize that there is this primal tension between copper and iron. And it’s phenomenal when you get into it. But you’ve got to step past the paradigm of conventional thinking. And you’ve got to, it’s important to embrace that there’s more to the story. And what I appreciate you all it’s just is that is to have this kind of conversation with someone like yourself who does understand this, and you do seek to bring this knowledge to your community. And I  commend you for that, because it’s so important, for more people to realize that it is a very straightforward process. It’s just we didn’t have all the pieces of the puzzle. And what the book carrier fatigue does is it introduces new pieces of the puzzle. It’s not it’s not the complete answer. I think it’s good I think it’s a good reference point, helps people understand where the challenges are. But what it’s meant to do is empower the public to begin to take control of their homeostasis, so that they can regain their health. That’s really what it’s about.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, thank you for the nice words. It like you said, is the democratization of health care and bringing the power back to the people. And you know, not just at the 30,000 view foot but at the cellular level too. And ultimately, one of the things that I love that you mentioned earlier that especially for people that look at the term adrenal fatigue, which has its controversy, which morally I’m in the process of reporting on the history of how that you know, at while Han Salya was sort of the father of stress research, he did create an initiate the controversy associated with adrenal fatigue because in his three general adaptation theory, named his final stage the exhaustion stage, well, in 1859 are ready a doctor name, Addison, came up with an idea of the fact that there’s this thing that they actually thought it was first and an adrenaline problem because they didn’t realize that at that time, it had yet to be synthesized. But they thought it was the inner part of the adrenals that no longer because the opposite of adrenaline is wasting and fatigue. So they thought it was an adrenaline problem, only to realize that it was the cortical problem And it wasn’t able to put out enough cortisol to meet a baseline amount. And so medicine already had its definition of what an exhaustion problem was, or insufficiency problem was, and one in 100,000, whereas people read the Internet and come up with a term called adrenal fatigue when in reality, it’s not in the peer-reviewed journals, it’s not taught in the medicine. And in medical schools, just like what we’re talking about right now, and mineral balance and energy production are not taught. And then to your point were misled and misfed. And it becomes almost the thing that upsets me is the dogmatic, holier than thou dismissal, and then the almighty prophet of the dollar to keep it running. But anyway, one of the things I want to talk about, which is probably a good ending point, at least, going through this theory is, I love this concept of, well, I still don’t necessarily agree, I’m just a listener, that it’s this copper thing I heard it’s toxic, that’s more of a problem than deficient. I am like, I’ve had people I’m sure you’ve had this where their doctor has told them their iron anemic, Morley that they’re that they’ve had to take transfusions, and they’ve had to do it and what you’re telling me is sacrosanct to what’s going on. But what I love is and you told me almost felt like reincarnate in terms of being there in the room when Warburg who research that was laughed that as cancer as a metabolic disease. And ultimately, it can’t be so easy that your cellular respiration is breaking down with the presence of oxygen. And you found in his disciple, Krebs, who both were scientists with Nobel Prize resumes, and are wanting to understand how does energy gets produced in the body? Like, how does it happen on it, and you found a paper brought it back to life. And it pointed to the importance of copper, and more than iron. So why don’t you Why don’t you kind of finish it off that way? And then we’ll have a To be continued from here.   Morley Robbins: Yeah, that’s great. And I would have had the pleasure of meeting with one of my research heroes, Jamie Collins, University of Florida, and he gave me a give me a Nobel Prize. But it’s like, pretty cool, right? Yeah. We’re gonna ignore the fact that there’s chocolate in the center. But so so we’re dealing with two esteemed scientists, clinicians, these guys were talking about, you know, Hans, crap. Has Adolph Krebs was his full name, and auto, Heinrich Warburg. So these are Germans. This is in pre-war Germany. Where in the late 1920s. And from 1926 to 1930. Krebs works for Warburg just the image of those two working together is just amazing to think about. And in 1927, they experimented with pigeons and geese. And they bled these birds, almost to the point of death. And so, so what were they doing? They were, they were creating a true state of anemia, test, very little blood. There’s no iron now because the blood is outside of the animal. And they wanted to see what’s the metabolic physiological response to that stressful state for those birds. And what they discovered, much to their surprise, is that in the pigeons, there was a three-fold increase in copper enzymes. And then the geese a six-fold increase in copper enzymes. Now, against 1927. They hadn’t discovered they will discover so hullo plasmin and its Ferro oxidase enzyme function for 21 years. 1948 is when Homburg and Laurel’s sweetest physiologists discovered this blue protein that is it’s the powerhouse of our body. But back in 1927, they knew what a copper enzyme was. And there was this huge influx in the geese. And what happened to that research. It gets pushed aside. Why? Because it indicated the cop or regulate iron. When you have a near-total loss of iron, and the body responds with copper enzymes, well that’s that tells us who’s in charge. And in the world of homeopathy, copper is referred to as the general. And iron is referred to as the foot soldier. What’s critical to understand is what we’re talking about Dr. Warburg. This is a guy who got nominated for the nonchocolate form of this battle 47 times 47 times this guy. I don’t think there’s any other scientist on the planet who’s had that kind of recognition. And he wins the Nobel Prize in 1931. For an enzyme that has the classification 1.9 dot 3.1 only reason why I remember this is 1931. And so Dr. Warburg get the Nobel because he’s the one who identified this specific respiratory complex in the electron transport chain. But here’s the catch. What did he call it, the German phrase was MGS ferment, which means respiratory ferment. But he referred to it in English as iron oxidase and gave no homage to copper. And that threw off scientists for decades because they thought iron was running the mitochondria. When in fact, when you get into the bowels of the research, especially those Rulez 2021 It’s like, it’s copper all over the place. And that’s what that’s the basis of my research is, of my uncovering the research that I’ve uncovered, is that it’s a copper-dependent mechanism on every level. And again, that just has not been a truth has not been brought forward. Because there’s no, there’s no money in that level of understanding, because it puts, it puts the individual in control, which is really what we’re seeking to do. But that may not be the interests of those who are at the top of the pecking order. So that’s kind of the history behind it. And what with what Joel was referring to, as I have the sneaking suspicion, I believe in past lives, I have affiliate was a technician off in the corner, saw what happened, and didn’t do anything about it. And now in this lifetime of like, trying to get the word out, come on, folks, it’s hat you think it is. And it’s almost a comical experience to have the level of insight I have now, you know, again, on the heels of my, my, my college career, and, and yet, it feels at times like my microphone is about an inch high when what I need is an empire state building microphone, and I don’t know. But it’s, it’s these types of conversations that are so invigorating. And the ripple effect is phenomenal. As you know, you don’t know where these conversations are going to go. So it’s just, it’s always a delight to have this kind of repartee, and you kind of respond to these really important questions. So people have a completely different understanding of what’s going on. I reallocate that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, no, it’s I love hearing the stories. I could just imagine the rolling of the grave when he when it in a way that misled everyone. And then on top of that, the research got buried. And it’s not. It’s like no, that’s not what I meant at all. It reminds me of a story where I heard this story and it just kind of popped into my brain where the little girl asked her mom, why do we cut off the little loaf of the of though? You know, and if you heard this story before, ya know, I’ll just leave it for the listener to understand. So I finished the thought. And she’s well, that’s because grandma does that. And you know, it’s a family tradition. So I might be butchering it. So I got Yeah. And so, you know, Grandma happened to be there. And the girl asked her Grandma, why do you cut that end of why did we cut this off? And I was like, what was your great grandmother did that and lo and behold, the great grandmother was there too. And she asked the great grandmother, well, why did you cut the end of the meatloaf off? And she said, well, because we didn’t have a big enough, you no cooking pan to put it in. And I think that’s apropos in terms of what we’re talking about and how we get misled and miss fed, and intentionally to and it’s that it’s of that Glassglasshousehe first stone that’s cast leads us to false truths and as you put as missing information is missing truths. And what we have now as you have seen and mentioned is almost if watch Seinfeld, the George Costanza approach to healthcare is Dodoesexact opposite of what we’ve been told, and will probably do well, right. But on top of that, it’s not only that, it’s the fact that there’s a pen more than a pandemic, of energy crisis. And, and even though within you, you allude to it a lot with food, and it’s, it’s small, the small of savings or my wife always says to me, the lazy man works twice as hard, right? If you would have just done the job in the beginning, and I think what’s going to be happening is, we have this pandemic of metabolic dysfunction, or tidal wave, not even pandemic is a good word, because it’s the reason why people do so poorly when they get exposed to, to a virus, and they’re being told to do other things that are making their energy productions problems even worse, and more likely to do worse with that. But either way, what I’m trying to say is, is that we’ve tripping over dollars to save pennies, and with the food and the processing and how much cheaper it is, ultimately, gonna have to pay the piper at some point where you’re going to have the bankrupting of our system because of all of these chronic illnesses, that that are coming our way, or are here ready. But as much as I say because morally, I’m from Canada originally. And I say, when you move to the US, it’s the best of the best and the worst of the worst. And I feel that where we are with weight research is, wow, this is daunting and overwhelming. And there are the people that are suffering from formation and fatigue, there is a root cause protocol, which is out there, which is not meant to be a cookie-cutter program. It’s meant to be massaged, and, and customized. But it’s very therapeutic and effective at producing energy and decreasing the demand and supply in quality so that your body has the intelligence to do what it will with it. And I guess that’s what we’ll do with our next part. So I guess what I would ask you in passing as well, let’s say this has piqued people’s interest that hasn’t heard of you. And it’s amazing. And you offer great information, whether it’s the book itself or on your website, the actual protocols to do and start and begin. So where can the listener find that morally? And why don’t you tell them a little bit about that?   Morley Robbins: Absolutely. For those that are on social media, there’s a Facebook page. On the Facebook group, there’s a Facebook group called the magnesium advocacy group on the Facebook page is the root cause protocol. There’s a website RCP for root cause protocol, RCP 123 dot o RG and now there’s a book it’s called cure your fatigue, very against play on words is, as Joel noted, the CU is a little box on Etsy, recognize the symbol for copper, the cure your fatigue, and you can get that on Amazon, books, Barnes, all the platforms, you won’t find it in your mom and pop bookstores yet, let’s go take a little bit of time. But it’s doing well. This is a very healthy sales process to undertake. I’m pleased with the receptivity that people have to the book as it comes in a physical book and an ebook. And in the spring, there’ll be an audiobook available for people because I know folks are always on the fly and in need of other ways to get their information. And the other thing that people if they’re at all peaked and kind of intrigued by this, we have a training program. So 16-week training programs called the RCP Institute. Again, you can Google that, and you can find it on that RSVP 123 dot o RG. And then for the critical few, there’s always some that want to reach out personally, my email address, it’s just my first and last name at Gmail. And for those enterprising folks, my phone number is area code 84792 to 8061. This is usually when the podcast houses like you gave out your cell phone number. And I’ve done that for years because I figure it’s better to make the information available. And people seem to have the self-regulating capacity, you know when it’s important to call or not. And I welcome calls and look forward to the conversation. So a lot of different ways to reach out. There are probably 100 Are podcasts conversations like this out there? They’re getting really exciting as, as people, more people are reading the book and begin to understand this. So I think there’s, there’s no shortage of opportunity to hear me blah, blah, blah. And it’s always fun to talk with people like Joe who gets it. I mean, it’s like, I wish we had recorded the first two conversations we had, it was all it was a blitzkrieg of information back and forth. And, I genuinely appreciate the work that you’ve done, to amass your understanding. And I look forward to our continued dialogue going forward because I think it’s gonna, we’re gonna uncover some fun nuances for people, especially, I still I’ve just, I’m loving over it too much overhead, I love that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, good. I’m glad to contribute something, I think is an investment, too, to you, to make yourself available to anyone that wants a little more insight. And you’re right, it’s a self-selecting process. And ultimately, for me, there have been little nuances that have increased my understanding. So what we’ll do is we’ll take it, we’ll keep it at the one standard deviation, but we’ll maybe get a little bit more into the weeds because a lot of the things that I look at as well get into the genomics, and it doesn’t mean just because you have this gene snip, it’s a one gene snip approach. It’s a it’s a sort of a 3d chess game played underwater, even though I agree with you morally, in terms of, it’s a real tell for me now, I almost sort of, kind of wish I didn’t you know, sometimes you wish you don’t know what you know, now, but I’m past that point where I have tells when I know, people tell me that they’re taking ascorbic acid or vitamin D, there’s all these tells now that I have where I like, Okay, you’re not, you’re not on the wavelength of fundamentally producing energy at the level that you need to, and it becomes but but with that being said, I do want to take it that next step level with our next conversation and get into what Surulere plasm is, get into the importance of vitamin A, you know, one of the things I’ll tell you is the MBR, the magnesium burn rate was a real game changer for me, I we all know about how important magnesium, in fact, we underestimate not just the enzyme function, but the protein function and how many more by by 10s of you know, 10 times more important in cellular energy production and running this show. That was a big game-changer for me. So thank you so much, because those little nuances, you know, in terms of the Pareto principle one to two to 3% of the things you change, get 97% of the results. And I’ve been seeing that firsthand. So so thank you so much for that, but we’ll do it to be continued. Everyone knows how to get in contact with you. And we’ll be publishing this soon. And I look forward to part two. So thank you so much for your time today. Morley.   Morley Robbins: You bet. Thanks so much for the chance to have this dialogue.   The post How to Get to The Main Cause of having no Energy Part 1 with Morley Robbins appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of your adrenal fix the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m joined here with an exciting guest, Bryan Chan. He is a project manager by trade, and he’s joined the bio strap team in 2021. In their mission to democratize digital health services. As part of their small team, he wears many hats. One of them is that he’s a product specialist, helping small businesses and enterprise clients with the bio strap platform and using it in a way that empowers their decision-making processes. He’s also a highly active recreational athlete balancing his work, his hobbies, and many other endeavors. And he’s no stranger to stress recovery. He uses his biometrics to guide his health Magian management strategies, which we’ll be getting into and hearing his clinical pearls. And he also enjoys surfing and backpacking and his training for his first half Ironman Triathlon. Brian, thank you so much for being here today.   Brian Chun: Absolutely. Dr. Rosen, it’s a pleasure. Thank you for having me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So when I read that bio, I immediately focused on that cool mission. And the mission of bio strap is to democratize digital health services. What is exactly that? What does that mean? Brian?   Brian Chun: Absolutely. That’s a great question. That’s a great place to start. Um, a little bit of background, I mean, I joined the bio strap team, because I’ve always been interested in, you know, the Health and Human Performance side of things and quantifying how you feel, as opposed to just going off of just, you know, basic feeling. And so with wearables, you know, you have the power to do that. And so that’s why I joined the bio strap team. But once I joined the team, I learned about the mission, which is to democratize digital health services. And what didn’t occur to me until I joined the team is that you know, what wearable technology has the power to do is, it pretty much eliminates the barrier to more scientific discoveries, more clinical research, and what I mean by that is, in your current, you know, clinical setting, and in a research facility, you’re kind of limited to, you know, certain, certain things such as geography, you know, you can only recruit from, if you’re having people come to a lab, and you’re running studies there, you’re very limited to the amount of, you know, the patient population that you can test with, you know, does that make sense. And so with wearable technology, you can pretty much ship these things, you can ship out a wearable, out to people all across the world, pretty much. And you’re able to collect data from a much broader and, you know, you can, you can set certain criteria, you’ll have a much larger patient population to choose from, and get data from all different types of sources. And, and so that’s just one example of how, you know, it’s reducing the barrier to the kinds of clinical trials and clinical studies that can be run, even with your typical, you know, nonclinical and nonresearch settings, such as you, I mean, you are a clinical setting, right. But for people running remote physiological monitoring, popular, you know, programs, it’s much easier now, with wearables to put, you know, to get data from the clients that you’re working with, and be able to provide them, you know, better insights and applies better interventions based off the data that you have. And so we’re pretty much you know, it’s making it a lot more accessible to anyone from, you know, huge pharmaceutical companies that have the money to do this kind of research. But it also enables, you know, the smaller businesses, the physical therapy clinics, the doctor’s offices that want better data for decision making. That’s pretty much what democratizing digital health means.     Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean it to simplify it because it can get very, very complicated. I hear two main, two main areas or buckets if you will. And that is to give x access to people all over the world to clinics, or providers, or even just knowing that they otherwise wouldn’t have had access to. But the other one, which I think is cool, which we should explore is typically the problem with research has always been the ivory tower towers, the does the studies, and then that it gets implemented on average 17 years later, for the users that use that information. And so what we’re talking about is being able to conduct studies by using wearable and looking at certain biometrics that In English, basically, when you put it on your wrist you or wherever it is affixed to, it will give us data in terms of movement and heat and heart rate variability and, and other things that can now set up like, Okay, if I do this, and I test that, and I get a baseline of what, what I’m testing for, and then I implement a different strategy. And I look at those, those metrics. And I can determine Was that something that helped that person? Or was that something that didn’t help that person? So in that regard, now, we’re able to not only extract the data in real-time, and not have to wait 17 years. But we can actually, I think the third bucket is we’re looking at, at more important data, right? I mean, when you look at blood work, and you look at static things, well, not so much static, but static in time in terms of you’re taking the test at that time. And a lot of things could be going on with that person that changes from time to time, whereas the dynamic readings that we’re looking at, are always changing over time, but you’re able to catch those changes and make some really important decisions. So let’s springboard from there. And ultimately, give us an idea on what bio strap metrics are testing, like, what things are they looking at when you wear this? And then maybe we can get into what are some of the clinical pearls that you’ve been seeing with all of the time you’ve been spending with bio strap?     Brian Chun: Sure, um, I can go into a little bit about, you know, the different kinds of biometrics that we record. What we do, is we’re using PPG technology. Okay, I won’t get too deep into that. But for pretty much on a high level, what we’re doing is we’re taking raw heart rate data from the wrist, okay, and we’re using that raw heart rate data and running it through our machine learning algorithms to pump out different biometrics such as HRV, such as respiratory rate, and such as blood oxygen saturation, there are a few other biometrics, will I guess they would still be considered biometrics, such as peripheral elasticity and arterial elasticity that have to do with heart health. Well, yeah, those are pretty much the main biometrics that we’re deriving from this raw PPG data that we’re getting from the list.     Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, and then heart rate variability can be a major rabbit hole to go down, for sure. I mean, I have an exercise physiology background as well. But to keep it sort of superficial, give us a brief history and an application as to why it’s so important. And maybe give it context in terms of the listener who’s stressed out, exhausted, burnt out, and then they want, they heard this thing called HRV. Some people may never have heard of it. And then you have people that know very well in detail what it is, but kind of give us an overview on why that’s such, probably the most important metric and bio strap has a couple of unique, I guess, monitors not monopolize a bowl, or just distinct qualities that make their heart rate variability more sensitive.     Brian Chun: Sure, yeah. HRV is a really big one. You know, it’s something HRV I heard of it before I even joined bio strap. And so I had started using it to kind of guide my training. For the listeners out there that don’t know what HRV is, it’s pretty much you have something like your heart rate, right, which is measured in beats per minute. And let’s say that, you know, just for an easy example, let’s say that you’re working out and you have 100, your heart rate is 100 beats per minute. What that tells you that in one minute is that in one minute, you’ve had 100 heartbeats, right. But what heart rate variability tells you and what heart rate variability is looking at is pretty much it’s the measure of the difference in time intervals between heartbeats. So you pretty much have a heartbeat. And then you might have like, you know, 10 milliseconds between the first heartbeat and the next heartbeat, but you might have a difference of another 20 milliseconds between that second heartbeat and the third heartbeat and so on for that 100 beats per minute. And what that’s come to show is that pretty much a higher heart rate variability is better. And a lower heart rate variability is correlated with stress. It all has to do with the autonomic nervous system that’s kind of you know, what is understood as the main driver of you know, heart rate variability, and pretty much if you have a high heart rate variability ability, what that means is that your nervous system is much more ready To respond to stress, kind of how I think about it on a very nontechnical level is that if you are experiencing stressors throughout the day, and your heartbeat is pretty consistent, that’s kind of you would think that consistency is better, right? But in this in regards to heart rate variability, if different stressors are coming at you, you want your heart rate to sort of match that, you know, if you have a lot of stress coming at you, your heart rate might be beating, boom, boom, boom, whereas, you know, in a low-stress environment, you might want it to be a little bit less variable. And so pretty much a higher variability, you know, equates to better able to adapt to the different stressors that come at you. And a stressor could be anything that your nervous system perceives, whether it’s, you know, a work call, whether it’s this call that we’re, you know, this podcast that we’re doing right now, whether it’s some stress that’s on your mind, from, you know, maybe an argument that you had before, whatever it may be, a big one is, you know, stress that comes from, you know, working out. And so all of those things affect HRV. A little bit about how bio strap does HRV pretty much what we’re looking at is, we’re when we provide you an HRV value that you see in the app, and I’m sure that you’ve used it before and some of your, you know, clients and you know, study participants may have used seen before, is that HRV value that you see in the app, you might be wondering, is that my HRV value right now, what is that from is that an average from my night’s sleep? Well, bio strap, we believe that nocturnal data, nocturnal biometric data are where you’re going to be able to see the most insights. And that’s because everyone sleeps, right. And when you’re sleeping, pretty much from person to person, the processes that are happening in your body are consistent, you know, across a general population. And so a really good way to look at how you’re recovering and kind of judge your readiness for the day is to look at how well you recovered during your sleep. And so we’re looking at nocturnal HRV, as opposed to HRV or biometrics during the daytime, to kind of gauge how ready you are for the day. And so what we’re doing is you’re wearing your bio strap to sleep, once we have programmed it to automatically recognize when you’ve entered a state of sleep. And so once you’ve entered a state of sleep, we’re firing the PPG signals, infrared, red light PPG signals, anywhere up to, you know, you can get about 16 data points per minute, I believe what you have it set on right now you’re getting about 30 data points per minute, we’re flashing that light once every two minutes, we’re taking all of that data throughout the night sleep. And then pretty much what we’re doing is drawing a line of best fit through it. And the endpoint of that line is pretty much when you wake up, okay, you’re ready to take on the day, what is your ending HRV value, that’s pretty much the value that we’re using to you know, push out a recovery score to you. It’s the value that you see in the raw data that you see in the app. And we believe that you know, taking longitudinal HRV values HRV dependent on longitudinal data is much more reflective of how ready you are to take on the day.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. So that sort of begs the question now, when you create your algorithm, because if you have machine learning, and one of the things that we teach our coaching clients is, you don’t want to compare it to absolute levels, right, like Joe had this level of HRV. And Mary had this, everyone is unique. And we want to make sure that we’re comparing their HRV longitudinal markers from along the way to see how they’re going above and below their standard scores. And then if, for example, they’re doing proactive things that are therapeutic, and they’re going to bed earlier, or they’re controlling their exposures to lights or they’re keeping a time-restricted eating window, or they are making sure that they’re getting lots of movement and so forth, and they’re seeing the trends go up. They know that that’s favorable, versus if they are doing things that aren’t so aligned with their rhythms, that the heart rate variability will go down and that’s to your point of the lower the heart rate, heart rate variability, the more they’re under that autonomic service nervous system of sympathetic dominance in your Akata cola means in your adrenaline hormones, neurotransmitters are being released and it’s creating a very sticky Beat and some people get confused. It’s like, well, my heart rates are high. Yeah, your heart rates are high, but the cadence between the beats is very controlled and very low. And the ability to adapt by definition, if I can adapt and address the environmental stressors, then that tells me I’m, I’m maintaining have a higher capacity to maintain homeostasis. That’s favorable. So I guess the question I would have to you is, how does machine learning work? Brian, in terms of okay, it takes some time to figure it out. And then once it does, it says it gives you some scores, and what are those scores? And what kind of suggestions is it making? So first and foremost, I guess the question is, how does the how, why does it take a little bit of time before it starts to give you your readings? I think, what is it a four day or five days? Window? Yeah, yeah, a five-day baseline. So what’s going on in the number crunchers that are going on behind the scenes with that?   Brian Chun: Yeah, kind of back to what you said about, you know, one person and another person’s HRV scores being, you know, you don’t want to compare it to absolute values. So it goes back to the conversation that we had, during our onboarding call where you ask, you know, is there good is there as a range of good or bad and, you know, really, with a lot of the studies that have been done, it’s kind of that there are too many inter-subject variants, you know, in these studies, meaning that variability, heart rate variability can be up here for one person down here for another person. And so it’s really difficult to set like a normal range. And so with bio strap, that’s one thing that we stress is that the data that you are seeing is a comparison to your baseline. And so that’s why when you first got the bio strap, we’re not pushing out any sort of, you know, recovery score, because the recovery score is, you know, in its essence, its algorithm generated, right, we’re waiting, we’re taking a bunch of inputs, weighting them applying our logic to it, and giving you a recovery score. And so we can’t do that if we don’t have any sort of baseline data, I think this is a good kind of, you know, little like tip or knowledge, you know, for people that are unfamiliar with wearables is if you ever are using a sort of wearable that’s pushing out any kind of insights or recovery scores to you before getting, you know, at least five nights worth of data or some sort of baseline data, I would, you know, certainly look twice into, you know, whether that is accurate or not, you always want to have some sort of baseline, right. That’s the reason why for clinical research studies, you know, they do at least two weeks worth of, you know, baseline data control data, before applying the intervention, the same principle applies to, you know, the algorithms that we do is we want to get your baseline data first, before we start, you know, applying logic to it, and providing you with the score that you’re pretty much using to, you know, make decisions about, but about your health.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I agree, 100%, you have to have that baseline control, because otherwise, you don’t know what you’re comparing it to, especially if you’re getting suggestions on Hey, do this or that and there’s no baseline, and you’re trending well, but you’re not at that level of what the averages you’re below it, then it’s telling you you’re, you know, wrong information. So, okay, then let’s go down the recovery score, and especially for people that are exhausted and burnt out, and they’re not the common thing that I hear is, at this point, I don’t know, my arm from my elbow, I don’t know what which way is up and down. I have 1001 different supplements. I’ve done so many different testing. And I’ve changed my diet. So many times, I go to bed earlier, I have a lot of gratitude and celebrations, and yet my wheels are spinning, and I’m not moving forward and some days I am and some days I’m not and then I crash. And now I don’t know any data and what to do and why heart rate variability is so objective in that way after the control time has been taken. And now bio strap has this term called recovery index or recovery. What does that mean and what is it based on?   Brian Chun: Yeah, good question. So in particular, to bio strap that recovery score if you click on the recovery score, there are four different things in there that you know, we specifically tell you these are the things that affected your recovery score. Right off the top of my head I can think of you know total sleep duration, how much sleep did you get? Sleep efficiency is the total time that you spent in bed. However, how much sleep did you add? Get how much time were you in bed, but you were tossing and turning and you know, in a state of awake awakeness, right? Your nocturnal HRV, your resting heart rate, all of those things affect your overall recovery score. Those are pretty much, you know, different biometrics and different, you know, sleep stats that are very indicative of how well recovered you are. I mean, it’s pretty without this is not like, you know, very scientific or any, you know, anything complicated at all, it’s just if you sleep longer, and you get good quality sleep, good quality, meaning, you know, typically, sleep efficiency is, you know, very reflective of that. HRV it’s like, okay, maybe you got a lot of sleep. But did you get junks, you know, and your HRV recovery, your HRV is pretty indicative of whether you got good sleep or not. You know, if you’re, if you’re dehydrated, going to sleep if you are eating within hours of going to sleep if you’re getting a lot of screen time, those are all things that prevent you from entering those deep respiratory cycles of sleep. That can, you know, that’s pretty much making you feel better restored and ready to take on the day. Those are all things that are pretty much taken into consideration when pushing out a recovery score to someone.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? And does it also and this is I don’t know if it does or not, does it also take into consideration the activity levels from that day or I don’t even know if it does or not?   Brian Chun: No, it doesn’t take into consideration things like so if you record activity with it, or you record an X amount of calories with it, that is not included in the overall calculation, because any activity that you do is going to be already reflected in your biometrics if that makes sense. So if you had a, let’s just say, I’ll use myself for an example, I did a very difficult training block that for one week, and I’m going on, you know, long endurance rides, I’m swimming and I’m running. That’s a lot of stress on my body, that’s already going to be reflected in my HRV in my resting heart rate in my oxygen saturation in that recovery score calculation. And so there can be nights where I do everything, right, I drink a lot of water, I’m going to bed, you know, according to my normal circadian cycles, I’m not looking at my phone before going to bed. But if I crushed it, that day, I pushed it, I redlined it in my workout, that’s already going to be reflected in my recovery score. And the next day, sure enough, it’s my recovery score is very low, you know, could be in the 20s. In the 40s. Even though my sleep score is high, because I got good sleep, my recovery might not be.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. That’s why it’s built into those numbers, it makes a lot of sense. And you’re right, I would agree with you. It’s, it’s not rocket science a lot of the time, right, like, if I had a couple of drinks before I went to bed of alcohol, my sleep isn’t gonna be as good and I’m gonna have a worse recovery score or I have a higher lower heart rate variability. So or if I’m doing a lot of things, right, I will have a higher heart rate variability. So I definitely would agree with you on that. But then there are the nuances of what I tell my clients calibrating what’s going on physiologically, with what you think is going on mentally, because there’s going to be a disconnect where a lot of the times you think, Hey, I’m more is better. Or I give it’s not there’s a Goldilocks zone of not too little, not too much. And, you know, I remember listening to a podcast of a friend of mine who was an early adopter of heart rate variability and was doing the remote monitoring and looking at different specific times of their heart rate variability when it was at its lowest and highest and saying hey, like, what’s going on right here. And he mentioned that he was what was entertaining guests and they were over and that was thought of as an enjoyable activity. But the heart rate variability showed him that it’s at its lowest where you’re under stress more, and hey, what’s going on over here and that’s where he was washing his car and you know, he was in his zone sort of speaking. So sometimes we need the knock over the head with the Hey, this is a stressful event versus a nonstressful event that we don’t necessarily calibrate. I guess maybe speak to some of the nuances that you get. I mean, it’s hard to see those things when it’s being used mainly in the ER in sleep time, right to be able to get heart rate variability at that time, but maybe give us some clinical pearls that you’ve been seeing just with your data tracking or with clinics that you’re onboarding, what are some of the things that people are not seeing that common sense? cause and effects to make it better or worse, but some of the nuances?   Brian Chun: Sure, I have a couple of things to say about that. And the first is all addressed, you know, maybe some people watching this that might be applying, you know, the principles of HRV, as you know, high is, is good and low is bad, right? It’s, um, nothing in life is as clear as that, you know, it’s not as black and white as that. And the same thing applies to HRV. It’s difficult to say that to look at, you know, HRV data, especially during awake hours, right? Nocturnal is different because you’re sleeping, you’re in a state of rest, you’re not taking in any sensory input, right. But during the day, and this is something that I come across with, you know, the clients that I work with, that are looking for solutions, or looking for, you know, biometric recording solutions for some kind of studies or projects that they’re doing is that you know, during the day, people take on so much stress, as I said, stress is pretty much anything that demands your attention, right, it puts anything that puts a strain on your mind, right, and so we’re taking in so many different kinds of stressors. And just like that example of that person who, you know, was doing something that they think to be enjoyable, which is entertaining guests, whereas some, and then you have another thing where another activity where it’s washing your car that might be perceived as not as enjoyable, at least, maybe to that person, however, everyone is so different, right? Even if it is enjoyable, it could be a lot of stress, right? I mean, I like working out, I like doing things, you know, like that. But during a workout, if I’m pushing it, my HRV is probably going to below. And so how our body interprets stress can vary from person to person. And especially during the daytime, it’s, it’s hard to match up, you know, HRV data points to the events going on, it’s really difficult to say that, like, oh, during this time, I was on a call with my wife, and we had an argument, that’s why my HRV was low. And then during, it’s tough to match that up. Because there are so many different factors that go into, you know, our, our HRV, which is dictated by our autonomic and our nervous system in general. And so, I always recommend people when they are doing these kinds of studies, or even just using HRV. In general, if you’re going to do some sort of study, or you’re trying to gauge, you know, readiness to take on stress, nocturnal HRV. And nocturnal data is probably going to be your best bet. During the daytime, maybe some studies have been done that are starting to use, you know, daytime HRV values to, you know, predict outcomes or to measure the effectiveness and efficacy of interventions. However, from what I’ve seen so far, and you know, from my experience with, you know, wearables and these kinds of studies is that, you know, it’s a little bit trickier to do it during the daytime, it varies. And so to apply a high is good and low is bad, for every circumstance is not it’s, it’s a lot tougher to do it that way. I know, in some clinics, they are starting to, you know, they do certain tests, they look at the HR active HRV while they’re doing some sort of test, and they go, Oh, it’s a high HRV. That’s good. How did you feel right now? I feel like it’s just such in such an elementary and infant stage to make those kinds of decisions.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I agree. I’m sorry. Sorry to interrupt. I think it was a bit of it was a good question for you to shed light on. Again. It’s long, attitudinal. And we need baselines, and we want to look at trends. And so one of the things that I look at, when I’m working with a client one on one is I want them to understand, okay, let’s look at say the week view, or even a month view or even a day view. And let’s look at the week view and see from Saturday to Wednesday, you have trended higher on your HRV let’s start to figure out and reverse engineer what’s going on here. Right? Are we entering more of a different phase of your cycle? Or are you eating differently? Are you changing up your dietary habits? Are you changing up the timing of your habits? And what stands out to you Mrs. Jones as Why would have been trend they’ll tell you like oh well this was trending low I was in the hospital with you know what? looking after someone so I think more like to your point, Brian, it really is important to understand the trends and the longitudinal studies and being able to get the best objective sensitive and testing markers in, in a sleeping state, and then comparing that otherwise, but as far as for yourself, I guess, what are some of the things that better ask a question that you see, will cause you to trend upwards that you wouldn’t have necessarily thought of?   Brian Chun: Oh, I’m both it’s, it’s funny that you asked that because I’m nearing the end of my training blog for my first triathlon. And so HRV was huge. HRV is exactly what I used. And you know, my other biometrics as well, but it’s pretty much what I used to, you know, Taylor, and Taylor, my training regimen. So when I, so I would consider myself a, you know, very beginner, not I’m not a pro athlete like I said, I’m a very highly active recreational athlete, I like to serve backpack and all those things, but those are, you know, day-long endeavors, maybe just a couple, you know, over a weekend or something like that, and I control the intensity, really, but I’ve never really taken on an endurance sport. I’ve done a marathon before. But this is the first time I’m doing some sort of, you know, hour-long, I’m expecting to finish in like six hours. And so the kind of training that I’m doing for it, I’m very new to it, I pretty much took a training, program offline, talk to some people, and I just dove into the training, right? And I’m the kind of person that likes to hit it hard from the get-go, I’m training hard. I’m pushing it, I’m doing more than what’s you know, recommended in the training program thinking that, you know if I push it harder then I’m going to get better results? Well, I’ll tell you exactly what happened. I’m looking at my HRV trends from July to August, where I started training at the very beginning of August, and in the very beginning, as a physiological response to exercise consistently, you know, more cardiovascular exercise, cardio-based exercise, my HRV responded by improving it was starting to improve a little bit knows like, Okay, that’s good. But once you get into the zone of overtraining, or just, you know, just chronic fatigue, your body responds to that. And I saw my HRV starting to plummet. And one of the biggest reasons for that is because I’m upping the, you know, the training intensity, the overall volume, just the overall stress that I’m putting on my body. However, I wasn’t making lifestyle modifications. I’ll tell you right now, I’m a huge coffee drinker, right, and I’m very sensitive to caffeine. But I’m drinking a cup of coffee at 9 am. Before my first meetings, I’m drinking another cup, maybe around one. And so when it comes around to nighttime, as I said, I’m very sensitive 1 am on tossing and turning, I have thoughts in my head, I’m overthinking. Also, maybe a drink at night to unwind, you know, we all know how much alcohol affects our sleep. Things like THC CBD, not CBD itself. But the right marijuana, if you’re using something like that, that affects your body’s ability to go into a deep sleep on the kinds of foods that you’re eating, I didn’t change up my diet yet, I was still sticking to my regular diet, which is not terrible. But there’s a good amount of fried foods in it, right? And so, while I was upping the intensity for my training, I was not making the lifestyle modifications to get a good recovery. And so my HRV started to plummet. So what I started doing was I completely cut out caffeine, that’s, that was difficult for me. Very difficult for me. But once I did it, I started to see improvements in my sleep, my deep sleep, my sleep efficiency, the total amount of sleep I got, and how recharged I would feel when I woke up just from you know, not drinking coffee for the first week or so, that was enough to tell me, okay, you know, this is worth it. You know, and how did I know I saw my HRV improved, it was almost like, you know, textbook, just I followed the, you know, protocols that I’ve learned from, you know, past six years of just learning more and more about human performance and, you know, human physiology applied those principals, cut out caffeine, started drinking more water started going to bed at a more regular time. I said You know what, I’m going to cut off work at a certain time and not look at my laptop, not look at my phone past 8 pm or something like that. And overall, when I started to improve my sleep, my HRV started going up is pretty much matching my recovery up in my recovery to match the intensity of my training. And that’s how I use HRV to manage my health.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and those are some good options. Thanks for sharing the, I think the real clinical pearl on that, that I find a lot of the times when I work with clients is commencer, rating, your improvements or your, your struggles with what you’re doing lifestyle-wise. So what I mean by that is, if you are expending more energy, then you need to take in more calories. And if you’re expending less energy, you need to take in fewer calories. So that’s very important. I say, don’t trip over dollars to save pennies, you’re looking for the magic formula, you’re going to these online podcasts, you’re taking webinars, and you’re learning all this stuff on your own, but you’re just not getting enough calories to meet your demands. And you should start there. So a lot of the time it’s fat, for sure. And, and the same thing, if you’re less active, and you’re not as busy to be able to dial things down. And then that way, you’re kind of are always staying in sort of that Goldilocks zone. And that’s really what stress adaptation and the concept of hormesis is in terms of, you want to be able to push the outer limits on both the too much and the too little so that your body’s constantly adapting. But you don’t want to sort of pound the gavel set the the the Okay, Brian, you’re forever having to work out at this intensity, even if you commensurate and make the lifestyle changes, or you’re forever having to be off of caffeine, because I do believe that the body has is very efficient at the information we give it. And if we’re not giving it new information, it will start to stagnate even with that more healthy behavior. Because it needs a few perturbations to be on its toes to be able to increase its heart rate variability to be able to sort of balance that high wire act, would you agree with that?     Brian Chun: Yeah, I agree with that. It’s all a balancing act. Those you know, I would make those kinds of, you know, dramatic, drastic lifestyle changes to see the effect on my you know, to see my physiological response. And then from there, it’s all about fine-tuning, right? It’s kind of like the scale, right? You go to the doctors, they move the big scale first. And then from there, they use a smaller one to fine-tune and get your weight just right. That’s kind of, you know, what I’m using biometrics to do as I make these lifestyle changes, but I will not I love coffee. No, I’m not going to be off forever. I’m still, it’s just I know that there are I know when to use it, and when not to use it. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Right now that’s good. So, one of the clinical pearls that I had just recently the other day, which I wanted to just test, okay, I’m going to see if I have some deeper sleep or a lot better sleep efficiencies or better readiness scores, is using something called royal jelly. royal jelly is very rich in a nutrient called BiOp Trin. And by option is a prerequisite for all our neurotransmitters, serotonin and dopamine, and adrenaline. And a lot of the time what will happen is when we’re overstressed and over inflamed, and our heart rate variability is low, and we’re depleted, we deplete our ability to recycle are important antioxidants and are important prerequisites for neurotransmitters and BiOp. The trend is one of those important prerequisites that gets used up a lot. But then that doesn’t get recycled. And then when you take some royal jelly, you will potentially if you have some really good constitution, and you’re not going to use those prerequisites, and they’re going to get oxidized right away, but it’s going to be used for what you want it to intend to do, then it should increase your sleep. And it did it was profound in terms of how much better my sleep was. But here’s the clinical Perlas Do I go back to it consistently? I don’t think so. Because what I want, what I teach our clients is I want them to if you catch a wave, you don’t need to get off that wave to find another wave, ride that wave until it hits the ground, and then you go back up again and find another wave. So what would that would mean is taken up, have another day or two, three days or four days without taking the royal jelly again, see if your heart rate variability goes back to before baseline or is it still a little bit above baseline and ride it until it goes below and that may be three or four or five days before because it’s not meant like more is better. It’s meant where you just give your body that little push and let it ride it until the waves are finished and then go back up again, does that make sense?   Brian Chun: That makes sense, what I would relate that to sort of like, if, you know, if you’re doing we do commercial studies, and, you know, for clients wanting to test a product efficacy of a product, and, you know, some of the most important data that we see is not necessarily during the intervention phase, but the washout phase when we removed the, you know, intervention or whatever, you know, we were using. And we, that’s when we see the physiological response is our body returning to the state before we were using, you know, this new product or whatever intervention that we’re doing, or has it adapted to it. So it’s a really, it’s a really important time to look at and kind of gauge, you know, how you’re going to use this new thing that you found. And I agree with you that if you do find something nice, that does work for you, I think over time, right? We adapt to certain things. And so just continuously pounding with that might not be the best move, right? It’s using it to where you feel good kind of weaning off of it, or just, you know, staying off of it for a little bit and then reapplying it as needed. I think that’s absolute, you know, a good strategy for   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I think the word fine-tuning is apropos, you know because you do want to be fine-tuning your understanding of your viewer body. And we do just want if, in a perfect world, we could just have our HRV linearly go up and up and up and up. The reality is, it’s not possible. But if we could, I’m sure we would all want that, right. But at the same time, ultimately making fine-tune tweaks to your, your protocol or to your loop. And it comes down to I always say, it’s nice to know the objective cellular at the root cause of what’s going on physiologically, but what I feel is most important is subjective, do you feel that you’re more focused? Or you’re less stressed? Or you’re more rested? Or have you felt more recovered? And then that’s the now you can fine-tune? Where if you if that doesn’t answer yes. Now, you could go back into the scientific part of it and, and re-tweak or re fine-tune? And then go back and say, Yeah, you know, what, if I were to look at it, I’d have to say that such and such as better or not, so it’s a balance of how are you feeling at the 30,000 view foot with how are you feeling at the sort of objective biometric level and not letting the biometrics you know, summarize and dictate everything? I guess, is that right? Do you find that’s a fine line?   Brian Chun: A very big thing is that you know, I’m guilty of it. I think anyone that’s in biometrics, and is very obsessive about data, can, you know, I’m sure we’re all guilty of it is you get so lost in the data, the data, the data, there’s so much data that you forget, like, hey, take a step back for a second, how do you feel right now, objective data is important, but subjective data to how do you feel, you know, that’s the main reason why we provide, you know, those surveys or we provide the ability to, you know, for clinicians, or anyone using an RPM service, to provide those surveys, whether it’s, you know, the sleep survey that we push out, or you know, your survey that you can link to, it’s important to get subjective data to match up to that objective data. And at the end of the day, I’d have to say, you know, how you feel is much more important than, you know, the objective data, because data can say one thing, but if you wake up and you feel great run with that, you know, I wake up and I don’t like to say that I’m dependent on my sleep and my recovery scores, I look at it, because it’s just one factor in my decision making for how intense li I’m going to train that day, what things I’m going to do that day, you can’t entirely depend upon it if my recovery Score says, is a 60, I would rather my recovery score be an 80 or a 90 or close to 100. But if I feel good, I’m well-rested, I’m still gonna, you know, push it that day, and just see how I feel. That’s what I think, you know, you made a really good point. And that, you know, it is a balancing act. Gotta look at both the data is important. But in this world of, you know, especially big data, you know, we can, you know, get lost its subjective data, you know, should be I think subjective data should make the final call.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great call. You just sort of override the program, right, and be able to run with that. So now that’s great. Just a quick question before I ask you, the final question is, do those surveys, subjective surveys, do impact the recovery scores, objectively, when you fill those out?   Brian Chun: No, they do not affect the recovery score. The recovery score is just based on that’s objective measure, right? We’re taking all Have you the data from that we collect, and then push out the recovery score that subjective data is more so for, I think it would be most useful for people running studies, right to match up, you know, like, whether it’s time-stamped or not, to, you know, look at okay, on Monday, this was the recovery score. This was the process biometrics, this was the sleep score, this was the HRV. This was the raw data. This is the subjective data that goes along with this objective data. So it provides an easy way for whether it’s researchers clinicians to sort of match up subjective and objective data, but one does not influence the other.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, it was It wasn’t sure okay, that’s helpful. So, listen, we come to the time in the podcast, where I always like to ask the guests exciting questions. And it comes down to now that you know what you know, now, especially in the world of biometrics and some of the clinical pearls you’ve shared, especially with overriding the program, when it doesn’t necessarily match how great you feel and vice versa. If it says you feel great, or you should you had a great recovery, but you just not feeling it that day, then you back off on the other side of the scale. But with that being said, what would you have told the younger naive sort of I always say, joke around bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Brian, the sage-like information you have now that would have helped you leapfrog some of the trials and tribulations especially as it related to stress and overwhelm, and being just on that sympathetic driven, autonomic nervous system thing, what would you have told yourself, then that would have helped you earlier on in the game?   Brian Chun: Hmm, this is a this is such a typical, you know, ending, you know, podcast question that I hear a lot. And so I’ll try to answer it on two levels, one from like, a biometric. Kind of like, you know, incorporating biometrics and another just, you know, I guess stress, managing stress-related in that regard, I would have to say that I am still kind of, you know, that naive, young, bushy tail, you know, Brian, and, but if, if we do consider, like, the current version of me to be like that wise, you know, wiser Brian, I would look back and in regards to, like, stress management, I would have to say this seems so generic, but I would have to say, be more patient, and don’t be as greedy. And I know that sounds like more of like a life lesson, but I’ll explain is that I’m, I’m very ambitious. And I, I tend to set very lofty goals sometimes. And, you know, when I’m, when I take on something new, I enjoy the process of, you know, being a beginner. However, I always bite off more than I can chew. Just to use as an example, this is my first ever triathlon. I’ve never ridden a bike, I don’t want to say ever in my life, but I’m not a cyclist. And I signed up for an iron Half Ironman distance, triathlon. And so I’m, you know, it’s this weekend, I’m a little, you know, it’s on my mind, it’s a lot of stress, right. Even with other things, too, that I’ve taken on in my life, I would stress because I would take on so much and have such high expectations for myself, that it would stress me out so much. You know, it leads to things like overtraining, overdoing things, and just being on the extremities. And when you’re on the extremities all the time, I mean, if you’re when you’re always pushing so far towards one end, you’re always bound to bounce back to the way to another end. And so, you know, when you set when I set these high expectations, and high standards for myself, it’s stressful, I’m at one end, but I’m also you know, I end up overtraining, or just taking on way too much, and then I burn out, I fatigue, and then I’m at the other end, where I’m not able to do the things that I need to do, whether it’s a training practice, you know, I think it’s a principle that, um, it just comes down to be consistent, you know, do the amount that you can keep that you can continue to do consistently, as opposed to taking on too much power to look back and, you know, tell younger, Brian, something in regards to stress management, it would be, Hey, man, take it easy, like small steps don’t bite off more than you can chew. And being consistent, you know, getting more volume in whether it’s practice whatever it is, the volume will end up making you better at something in the long run. From a biometric standpoint, I would just wish that I had started using data and objective data a little bit more. I know this is coming off of the last question where I, you know, I was saying, rely on the subject of data bore. But you know, young Brian was just going completely off of feeling, you know, feeling and emotion. And I think data would have helped me kind of make some better decisions about my training about whatever it is that I’m taking on life.     Dr. Joel Rosen: And it was a great answer. They’re sort of similar in the sense of the way I would bridge the gap between both answers is, in physiology, you know, you have the same principle with specific adaptations to impose demands, and when I was a trainer, I would teach people, you just want to go a little bit more than what your body’s capable of doing, or you don’t stimulate a response, you either go a little bit above, or you don’t, if you go below, you’re not going to ask the body to, to, to create a stress, environmental change and inside your body to adapt to it. But if you go way too much, that’s where you have muscle soreness, or at the 30,000 view foot, you have a lot of anxiety and, and stress and panic, and being able to push it so that we’re always doing something every day to expand our stressor, or expand our, our experiences, we also don’t want to push it too hard at that level for sure. And then you also don’t want to be an ostrich and put your head in the sand and not explore the world too. And then on the other side of things. I do think that with biometrics, it is a nice balance between between understand it like knowing yourself, and sometimes you need to have the smelling salts put under your nose. And that is like the naive younger versions of ourselves. We think that we’re invincible, right? But then we see that, hey, you take a dive physiologically, when you have three drinks, and you come home at 2 am. And you know, it’s not it is common sense like yeah, I feel I, I know it’s impacting me, but you don’t see the actual numbers. And as we get older, we don’t bounce back the same. So it would have been nice to be able to, to know like physiologically, even though we were naive, that was still happening, even if we didn’t see it at the same level. But hey, loss of information today, I appreciate that I’m going to I as you know, I’m, I use the bio strap with our clientele. And what I will do is in the show notes, I’ll be able to give some links to people if they’re interested in getting it themselves on how to get that. But hey, I appreciate your time today, Brian, and I wish you a successful event this weekend. I know my biggest problem would be the swimming you had already been a swimmer before all of this or   Brian Chun: That’s that’s where I’m going to be that’s the event that I’ll be strongest in. But unfortunately, it’s the shortest event it’s only a mile compared to 56 miles for the bike and 13 for the run. But you know what? It’s my first one like I you know, kind of go tying it back to you know my answer to your question. I’m going to drop the expectations for this. It’s my first one, you know, and just chalk it up to experience rather than you know, stress about any sort of time. So I think I’m just gonna have fun. Dr. Rosen, thank you so much for having me. This is my first podcast ever. I had a great time. And absolutely, I got a lot of, you know, great clinical pearls from you as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s great. No, I appreciate it. The last thing I would say is to celebrate right because we don’t celebrate enough and we’re so worried about the data and did I fit it? You did it right? And look at how many people have ever done a half marathon half-type triathlon. So kudos to you and I look forward to hearing how you did Brian.   Brian Chun: Wonderful. I’ll be in touch. Thank you so much, Dr. Rosen.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you. Take care and have a great day. The post Biohacking Strategies For Stress Management appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stressed life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults, the truth about adrenal fatigue. And I’m excited for our next guest because we’re going to get into impaired fertility and the root causes. And we’re interviewing Jacqueline Downes, who’s received her Bachelor of Science degree in psychology from Drexel University, and later studied holistic nutrition in graduate school for two years, and also became a certified health coach. But her passion drove her much deeper into the world of how new nutrients affect your biochemistry, and how that affects all aspects of life, including how you think how you feel and how you move. So, Jacqueline, welcome to the show today.   Jaclyn Downs: Thank you so much for having me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m excited to talk because this is a really important conversation in terms of bringing a healthy fetus to full term and not only just avoiding the pitfalls and the challenges that women have to avoid miscarriages and to not be able to conceive but as you mentioned, be able to have the best potential for that baby going forward. So before we get into that, I always like to ask our guests a little bit of your background and personally why if you had any health challenges or specifically if you got into why you got into the specific area that you did.   Jaclyn Downs: Okay, I would consider myself a second-generation nutritionist My dad is a nutritional biochemist and I was aware of nutrition outside the USDA box ever since I was little when my dad had said that you know milk is not good for you. This was back during the four food groups. And I was in like third grade and I was like my dad says milk not good for you and your you know, my third-grade teacher was like, Oh, your dad’s wrong. And, um, and then just about like, before the Atkins diet, you know, all of them, oh, you need carbs, you need carbs, you need carbs. And my dad was like, no, that’s not necessarily true. And also the good fats, bad fats when fat was vilified in the 90s. So I always had this sense of nutrition and, you know, true nutrition, rather than just nutrition that was sponsored. And I so I’ve just always been interested in nutrition, but they didn’t, back in the 90s have a school in my state that I was pleased with the nutrition program. And so I graduated with a psychology degree and, a year or two later found birthing being I became a doula I just became passionate about helping women during their birthing journey. And then I worked with a midwife and it opened my eyes to infertility and how, how common impaired fertility was. I, you know, there wasn’t anything that I’ve encountered, because, at that time in my young 20s, my friends weren’t having babies yet and weren’t experiencing infertility that I was aware of. So through working with this midwife and doing birth work, my former career was as a birth worker. And then I was always interested in nutrition. So I had done graduate school in nutrition and God’s certification as a health coach and I got a job being Bob Miller’s research assistant about, I don’t know nine years ago or so back when it was just MTHFR and I was hired to just research MTHFR and everything just kind of built from there. MTHFR went to the CBS went to the CMT, and then just whole pathways and it made sense to me that women that were having problems with fertility were it wasn’t just that their hormones were out of balance. It’s why are your hormones out of balance and what nutrients or what toxins could be inhibiting these pathways and causing your body to switch off that that mating ability switch?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, lots of good points that you have there. And ultimately, the root cause of impaired infertility is the title of your upcoming book, and I want to dive into that as well. But one of the things that you just touched upon a couple of things actually, which we could take a deeper dive is sort of the sponsored approach to nutrition and interesting that you had you weren’t, you weren’t into the school, or the different schools or the education curriculums that were provided. Because of some major challenges, and I always find it amazing, to understand that the traditional allopathic approach dedicates so little time in their curriculum for nutrition. And then on top of that, when you do go through a sponsored nutrition nutritional program, it’s very biased. I mean, maybe I don’t want to go down that rabbit hole, but maybe given your experience, kind of give us sort of I don’t even know if there’s a 32nd commercial. But how would you be able to sum that up in terms of, Is that real? Is it true? What is it? Why is it I mean, the best succinct way that you could I don’t know if that’s a tough question for you?   Jaclyn Downs: Well, I knew that if I would become a registered dietician, that would have opened a lot more doors for me. But I just really didn’t want to get that education because I knew that at the time it was called the American dietetics association was sponsored by m&m Mar, Sara Lee, Cargill, Pepsi. And I just know that that there, they don’t have actual health promotion in their best interest. So that Yeah, macronutrient counting your macronutrients is, you know, valid for, you know, certain things, but I don’t think that that is what brings true wellness and vitality.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think you can sum it up by saying it was sponsored by m&ms. And that pretty much sums it all up. But at the same time, it’s not just about the calorie counting calories and the calories in-calories out, it’s but the food pyramid and the food groups and all the above, I just remember the best way for me to think about it is my dad was going through dialysis, and he was in a rehab center and they were putting margarine on his bread. And I’m like, okay, that’s probably the best way to explain why I didn’t go down the RTA train pathway. But anyway, it’s that’s kind of a sad commentary on the state of where we are, we’re at I don’t want to go down there any further as far as the book. So it’s really interesting, I appreciate being able to review it before we got on the call today. And ultimately, you talk about first the difference between impaired fertility, the term and paired for fertility, and infertility. So maybe kind of go let’s start with that.   Jaclyn Downs: Okay, I feel like infertility just feels like a dead-end diagnosis were like, especially if it’s unexplained like up, you know, I had my hormones checked, and I had, you know, all the internal organs and glands checked and everything’s fine. So it’s just, you know, unexplained infertility, and it just seems like that’s it, but impaired fertility, I feel has a, it brings with it a sense of it being a temporary state that that can be worked out of. And so I feel that it gives the connotation of hope. Because our bodies were designed to heal and our bodies were designed to procreate. And so if we can figure out what is going on what we’re either putting in our body is exposed to or what our body needs that it isn’t getting, then the body will have the tools to procreate and heal itself. And so I don’t feel that infertility is a dead-end diagnosis.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I like that I like the idea of health is always a verb. And it’s not a one’s a noun in terms of a lot of times too with the people that I get on the Facebook with, or do different types of content, and they’re always DM-ing me like, how do I cure this or what’s the main thing I need to fix this and it kind of puts a few shivers down my back in terms of, you know, on the flip side to it’s just, you don’t just fix it either, and you just don’t diagnose it as a dead-end diagnosis as well. So I love that you did that. And you also mentioned that imbalances in the hormones aren’t solely due to the endocrine system. So maybe we can explore that a little bit.   Jaclyn Downs: Absolutely. So the hormones you know, are supposed to be produced and cleared and metabolized in a certain way. And so if there are imbalances something is causing the hormones to be out of balance. And oxidative stress plays a huge factor in that and I think my mission after writing the book, like even before, but like it just became really clear that the world just needs to know what the term oxidative stress is. Because a lot of people just think stress is work stress, family stress, schedule, stress. Maybe they might know about physical stress if they are, you know, you hear about the athletes that just overtrain. And then the women lose their periods and stuff like that. But, especially with this modern world today, with the environmental stressors, all of these things, the physical stress, the emotional stress, the environmental stress, all of those impact our cells, and our cellular health. And the first thing to go is the reproductive cells, because reproduction is not necessary to stay alive for your body to stay alive, yes, for our race, but or the human race. So the body I say, Rob’s Peter to pay Paul, because it’s saying, Well, obviously, now’s not a good time to make a baby. After all, we’re under all this stress. So let’s just steal from what we need from the processes that create the hormones to deal with the stressor.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I explained that a lot too because it can get super complicated. And I have to give you like two thumbs up because going through the outline of the book, and then as soon as you get into some of the more difficult concepts of oxidation and what happens with that, and how we rob Peter to pay Paul, and all of the dominoes that get impacted by that is a daunting task for sure. And but one of the things that I like to say to people is to keep it simple, and it kind of resonates after the cell danger response is just at the 30,000 view foot, if your supply and demand is not equal, you have to make some important decisions, right? I mean, if you’re making less money than you’re spending, or you have way more expenses in your life than income, then that’s gonna crash and burn pretty quick. And you’re gonna find out the hard way, what, you know what the implications of not being able to afford those additional luxuries. And that means you make some pretty important decisions. And really, it’s the fundamental decisions or the things that literally and metaphorically keep the lights on, right? You keep the lights on, you make sure you put food on food on the table. And that happens at the cellular level in our bodies. And it would make sense that well, reproduction is not at the top that’s like I don’t need to go on a vacation to the Riviera. When I can’t keep the lights on that’s kind of the analogy right? So yeah, so so with that being said, so oxidative stress, obviously, is the hallmark of what we what you teach in the book, but you right, you get right into functional fertility. So why don’t you let the listeners know what functional fertility means?   Jaclyn Downs: So functional medicine and functional nutrition are receiving a rise in awareness. And that is getting to the root cause of an issue or a health complaint. Rather than just recommending a drug or a supplement for a condition, let’s find out why your body is presenting that condition in the first place. So using functional lab testing and genetics, as well as a very, very detailed intake and health history, we can get an idea of the causes of the imbalance. And then we can do some targeted functional testing to identify exactly what’s going on with the biochemistry in the body. And, and so functional fertility is a term I didn’t coin it, but it just totally encompasses everything that I talked about. So rather than just measuring hormone levels on a certain day of the month, and then giving appropriate drugs to make those hormones stay within an optimal range, let’s get to the root of why the hormones are out of balance in the first place. And then everything that involves fertility rather than just hormones is also thrown into that whole functional topic.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and people are looking for that. I mean, they do use the term like root cause, like I don’t feel like I’m getting to the root cause I don’t feel like I’m at but I do feel, unfortunately, through conditioning allopathic C and we’re talking about root causes, which I think’s important. And, but what I like about what you have is in one of your second chapters is the importance of the saliva test, or the DNA test, or the functional genomic nutrition test. So what again, why don’t you kind of segue into Okay, well, it’s important from a functional standpoint to put together the perfect storm of what are the things that stress this person, environmentally, we call that epigenetically, of which oxidative stress is not is a major part of the stress response. And then on the other side the genetic susceptibilities that may potentially express or create the weak links in the chain and break and thereby express itself in terms of for you, it may be migraine headaches and joint pain for me, it might be gi disturbances or for someone else, it could be infertility or all of the above. So So why don’t you explain first what functional genomic nutrition is? And then what I love about what you wrote down is something called the gateway gene. So maybe talk about that at first, because that’s a big, those are two big concepts.   Jaclyn Downs: Okay, yeah, I’ve thought about titling, I gave a talk at my local hospital for the nursing grand rounds, called MTHFR is a gateway gene. And I thought about titling my book that because so many people, first off, say, Well, MTHFR is usually the first gene that somebody becomes aware of, and then from there, they learn about other genes, but they, they say, Oh, I can’t detox because I have MTHFR, or I have miscarriages because I have MTHFR. And my doctor tested me for that gene, and I have it and that’s the cause of all my problems. That is a lot of weight, a tremendous amount of weight to put on one gene. And I’m not discounting the importance of it. It’s just there are so many other factors that come into play. And so just because you have a genetic polymorphism, or a variant, or a mutation is technically an improper term, but people refer to it as a mutation doesn’t mean that it’s doomed to express, and as you said, it’s the environmental factors that signal to whether that gene should turn off or turn on. And so knowing your genetics, not just MTHFR can give you an idea of where your genetic weaknesses might be in things like utilizing your fats, which fats are needed to make hormones or detoxification ability. So it goes so much further beyond just MTHFR.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I get that a lot too. And on the flip side, just because you don’t have MTHFR, doesn’t mean you don’t have a problem either. And that was a lot of our haws for when I tell people they have an HPA axis dysfunction, but above that they have over activation of their mast cells. And above that, they have overstimulation of this enzyme here, which above that steals away your NADPH, which above that, you know, and that not having that NADPH is like the cofactor for the highways like you’re going on a toll. And even if the lanes are perfect, meaning you don’t have a heterozygous snip or homozygous that you can’t get on the highway. So it’s really important in terms of just because you don’t and I get that a lot too. So the MTHFR and I don’t have it or I do have it and I’m doomed, and so forth, and so on. So one of the very first things, though, you talk about is the difference between a nourishing diet and a healthy diet. So what is the difference, Jacqueline?   Jaclyn Downs: Well, a lot of my clients, I would say a majority, if not all my clients come to me and say, Well, I eat a pretty healthy diet, but I still have X symptoms or x problem. And healthy can mean you know everybody’s different. It’s grayscale, right? But that could mean they’re eating low fat, or that could mean they’re doing the Splenda instead of sugar, that kind of stuff. So they could think that they’re eating, eating healthy, but like, what is nourishing your body. And this isn’t necessarily just from a food and nutrition standpoint, you need the emotional nourishment as well. But what is nourishing your body are you getting all the nutrients that you need to get for your genes to function because your genes make enzymes and those enzymes require nutrient cofactors to work. So if you are not either able to absorb them because you have gut issues or you’re not getting them from the diet or you’re not getting enough, then you’re not going to have enough to pass on to a baby. As I say in my book, you can’t pour from an empty cup. So definitely making sure that you are nourishing your body with the proper nutrients and nutritional cofactors and other things rather than just eating a healthy diet.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. And I like you You showed in the book The Bob’s pyramid And you show that the things on the bottom area on the pyramid can create oxidative stress and inflammation. And the second row above that is the antioxidants, which we’ll get into in a second. But at the very top is that gateway Gene MTHFR. And again, I explain that pyramid when I show people think of the bottom as your expenses, and think of the top as your income. And as a result, especially as it relates to being able to just state and create a baby in the belly. If you don’t have a surplus, then you’re going to have some major challenges. And being able to cut the expenses goes a lot further than giving yourself a little extra income with a little bit of extra full aid, because that’s ultimately I always feel that’s a tell, right? I mean, if you have someone who’s an MD, or it just doesn’t understand the world that we understand, is they say, Okay, I mean, how many times did you get this where someone says, Yeah, well, I was taking methyl folate, I thought I fixed the problem, right? And then it goes so deep, so much deeper than that. So one of the very major overhead expenses that I was excited to talk to you about was iron dysregulation. So how does iron dysregulation because most women I would imagine, would say, Oh, I’m iron deficient? And that’s, that’s all they thought it was. And then they just yelled that that deaf person louder by taking more iron, and it didn’t fix the problem. So kind of give us a, an insight into Hey, if you have had challenges with fertility, or miscarriages or so forth, and there is an iron connection, and you were told that you were deficient, pump the brakes for a second, because there might be more going on what else? What is going on there? Okay, should they be looking at it?   Jaclyn Downs: Yeah, yeah. I don’t make videos or blogs too often. But I made a video about that. First of all, I love your analogies. They’re great. And I want to piggyback on your analogy with Bob’s Bob Miller, our colleague, says when your building is on fire with inflammation, you want to call in the fire department, not the construction crew. And full eight is a rebuilding, repairing regenerating nutrient, which is why you need it to grow baby. And so you don’t just want to start adding in the full eight. If you have all of these other things like iron dysregulation burning down your house, plus, you need to make sure that you can use the full eight, which again, you said NADPH, and yes, you need any DPH to be able to use your full eight. So in regards to iron dysregulation unless you have been vegan for some time. And you and you don’t eat meat. Iron is the richest, most abundant mineral and it’s also fortified and all of our foods. And so if you are a regular meat-eater , especially red meat, and you are diagnosed as anemic, and having iron deficiency anemia, it’s likely not an acquisition issue, it’s more of a utilization issue. So you’re getting the iron, but your body is not using it properly. And it’s getting stored in the wrong places. And it’s not going to show up in your blood and get to where it needs to go. And the stored iron can cause a lot of problems in whichever organ it may get stored in it has an affinity for the heart, the pancreas, and the brain especially.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m amazed that it’s not taught and traditional allopathic medicine, I mean, that, to me seems like okay, we still listen to eight-track tapes. And there’s this new thing called satellite radio, that kind of, you know, comes through the sky, we don’t have to have the outdated technology. And that seems to be the best analogy for that because I explained that 90% of someone’s iron is recycled 10% of it is from their diet, and it has to get chaperoned from the GI tract to the different tissues into the tissues out of the tissues recycled and the irony is you can have a deficient and an excessive presentation and the same person. And the way that they’ve looked at is that it’s deficient and we got to yell at that deaf person louder and only to create more gas on the fire, so to speak. So as far as Do you find I’m just curious anecdotally when you’re working with women that have impaired fertility, that that’s one of the big things that’s going on with them is that how much of a percentage Would you say that with some of the women that are or the women that aren’t able to conceive or have a baby to full term.   Jaclyn Downs: I would say more than half for sure have at some point. been told that they were anemic, and we’re way more than half. And we’re told to take an iron supplement or you know, got even got infusions. And so one way that we can see what is going on is through doing a full iron panel, including your ferritin, rather than just measuring your serum iron. And also, the same goes with copper, in which you need proper copper utilization, binding, and utilization for your iron to stand a chance. But including copper in that blood panel so we can see if that’s being properly used, and then pairing that with the genetics too because we can maybe see if somebody has a high degree of variance in iron or copper-related pathways, then that would make us want to do further testing with the blood and see what’s going on. And then we can figure out where the wrench in that system is and how to correct it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s amazing that goes wrong for so many reasons. Because that functional range for ferritin is so vast for men and women. And the other thing too, which I’ve kind of picked up recently is ferritin is the storage house for iron. And just because you don’t have high ferritin doesn’t mean you don’t have an iron that needs to be stored. And I think that’s a big problem with traditional medicine is like, okay, it’s just a one, it’s only thought of as correlated as high ferrets high storage, high iron, but you could have low storage and high iron because of this genetic polymorphism. Hence the reason for you to do the functional genomic assessment. So the other thing I want to talk to you about which I think is key, especially for exhausted burnt-out people and their hormones, is how they utilize fat. So that could be a really big rabbit hole. So why don’t we kind of just starting on that so so a pregnant or woman, a lady who is unable to conceive or take a baby to full term, and they have to understand that there’s a problem again, dysregulated fat utilization, it’s not just, it’s high, and then never being told it’s low? I mean, God forbid, you tell someone they have low, you know, such a thing as low cholesterol. But why don’t you tell us a little bit about how that plays into the impaired fertility, Jaclyn?   Jaclyn Downs: First? Sure. So we need fats for our own body and brain. And then especially in that first trimester, growing the baby’s central nervous system requires a lot of fats. And if so, cholesterol, there’s always a there’s a Google image that I liked that I show almost all my clients, and it shows cholesterol at the top of the pathway and how it makes all of your estrogen testosterone, cortisol, progesterone, the downstream cascade of that and so if you are not getting the cholesterol, or you are not able to properly utilize the fats, which you really, really need be too, you need be five Pantheon is a crucial step in making that conversion. So or there’s there are certain genes involved as well. But if you are not able to properly use your fats, then you’re not going to turn them into your sex hormones or your stress hormone. So that’s just the bottom line.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and then how would it contribute to the oxidative stress though.   Jaclyn Downs: So improperly used fats cause something called lipid peroxidation. And that creates oxidative stress and damages the cell. So it damages the structure of the cell, but it also damages the inflammation within the cell and the mitochondria. And the mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell. And to our knowledge, it is only the mother that passes on the mitochondrial DNA to her baby. And so if her body is already struggling with not having healthy functioning mitochondria, possibly in part due to not properly using your fats, then you’re not gonna have the raw materials to pass on to a baby or to even make a baby.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. So that fat is a big as a big hole. I guess there’s a whole culture, if you will, of being able to utilize it, break it down, absorb it, and be able to not oxidize it and use it effectively. I always say it’s like you’re making you’re cutting the logs, but you’re not putting the wood on the fire. And as a result, it’s like it’s almost like you working for me. At the end of the week, instead of me paying you for 40 hours. I then say to you okay, Jacqueline, you owe me for 40 hours of work. It’s not only not giving you the income, it’s expected. on you as well. So as far as that, that’s the thing I would ask you is, is that, okay? So you get into antioxidants? And how important why don’t we just give people a whole lot of antioxidants and call it a day? Why? Why doesn’t it work that way?   Jaclyn Downs: First off, we need a balance. There’s that Goldilocks zone that we talked about in functional medicine. And I recommend it, I mentioned it a few times in my book. So antioxidants, our body makes antioxidants. But we also need to get them through the diet, because, they fight off pathogens. And so if we couldn’t make antioxidants, or we weren’t getting enough in the diet, then the pathogens would proliferate. But we also don’t, so we don’t want, I mean, if we don’t have enough, or if we have too much, then it’s not going to be doing its job what I meant to say. And so also, we want to be able to use the antioxidants properly, as well as a lot of doctors are recommending Bluetooth ion for a lot of people and their body isn’t able to recycle it and that causes more oxidative stress for people. So it’s peeling away the layers of the onion and doing functional lab testing. So we can see what is the right intervention or support for that particular individual?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great answer, you just can’t, there is a Goldilocks zone. And we need the free radicals to signal our immune system and fight off pathogens, but at the same time, we want to have not too much of that, because then we can start having the military turn against our citizens back. But then if you give too many antioxidants, that will create paradoxically more inflammation and more depletion of your antioxidants. And that’s where it becomes difficult as to where you need someone like yourself to review the genetics so that you can put a wrench gas in those mechanics and be able to slow that down. So the other thing I like about what you wrote down, or what you have in your book is basically that I guess the old age theory of health is simple. Even though this is very complicated. You want to have more stuff of the things you need, and less stuff of the things that you don’t need, and create that balance. So what are in terms of the toxins? Kind of give us a little idea, because I’m sure everyone who’s listening who has been challenged with impaired fertility is like, Yes, I know, I’m toxic, I just need to detoxify. So it’s not even until the end of the book because all that other foundational stuff needs to be done first. So when’s there a time and place for the detoxification.   Jaclyn Downs: So there are a lot of people that just say, Oh, I need a detox, and they’ll go and they’ll buy a liver detox kit or whatever. But if you’re not pooping every day, and your channels of elimination are not open, your liver is going to start releasing these toxins, and they’re not going to have anywhere to go, and they will just get recirculated back through and so you’ve definitely if you there’s a time and a place for detoxification, and you need to make sure that first off that you’re eliminating, but that your body has the resources to be able to withstand the stress that detoxification or a cleanse puts on your body. And something else I was going to say, but those are the two main things, you want to make sure that your body can withstand it and get rid of the toxins.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right for sure. And again, I bring that back to the fact that if your surplus is not there, and your income is less than your expenses, then you don’t have the currency to afford the detoxing at this point yet so you want to make sure you have that surplus. And then and then you also get into blood sugar. So I mean that seems obvious for some people, but what’s sort of the message that you have in supporting fertility and blood sugar? What what are your words of recommendation on that?   Jaclyn Downs: I feel that blood sugar is something that a lot of people can have or gain more control over to help lighten the load on their HPA access. Because when you have sugar levels that are too high and then consequently too low, the it that calls on cortisol, because a surge of insulin can cause the call on cortisol and then having a blood sugar that’s too low elicits a cortisol response. Because evolutionarily our body kind of clicks into that, oh no, where are we going to get energy and so it causes stress. So the less court the less we can call upon cortisol, the more resources we will have for making the sex hormones because we don’t have to constantly be calling upon the stress hormones.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Absolutely. And then also to and that’s the other thing I explained to my audience is I know you’re not in front of the refrigerator. And you know, eating cupcakes and bond bonds. It’s not just about your sweet tooth, it’s the fact that all the things that you’ve described, in terms of stress, and all of the things that are going on in your body is creating that oxidative stress, which drives up a lot of the growth factors that’s what the question I would have is, Bob talks a lot about the imbalance of growth factors, and the inability to get into recycling and breaking down and clearing out. And that we call that the balance between em tour and a toughie g where M tour is the growth of the crops, if you will, and then the toffee g is the plowing of the fields and allowing those, those plants that didn’t get utilized to kind of go into the soils and be recycled, again, given that growth and pregnancy is a mtorr like a process. And the environmental factors are so swayed in today’s day and age to be turning on M tar every single day and not getting into a tough eg, you would think that there would be fewer challenges with pregnancy, right, because of the growth factor. So I don’t mean to throw you a curveball, but I’m kind of curious as to what would your hunch or your feeling be as to why that is that it’s still problematic, or even more so than any day and age to have a baby and bring it to full term. Given that a toffee G is not the biggest challenge that mtorr is the biggest challenge and so forth.   Jaclyn Downs: So it’s there’s a time and a place for it. We’ve, we’ve, I say that you know, the full eight and the iron the things that you need during pregnancy to grow a baby, our m tour, stimulating substances, but we need to also have the time for the cell to clean up and get rid of the debris. And so if the cell is just sluggish and laden with all of this debris, it’s not going to be able or not or signal to the body that it’s a good time to make a baby. So we need to make sure that we are promoting autophagy. Before we support the growth of the baby, we have to make sure that the cell is healthy enough to be able to support the growth of a baby.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great answer. And I think that segues into your book isn’t just for bringing a baby to full term. But we also talked about the fact that now you maximize the potential of that unborn baby, why would it maximize the potential.   Jaclyn Downs: because doing all that, even if you don’t have any problems getting pregnant or staying pregnant, there’s still so many children in this modern world that that have learning disorders and cognitive issues and allergies of all different sorts. So there’s immune system dysregulation right off the bat. And so by addressing these things, each chapter is a different point or a rock to lift under, you can get your body to a better state to be a cleaner house in which to grow baby and a more nourishing house in which to grow a baby. Because these toxins First off, they can impair your fertility. But if you are lucky enough to not have that issue, they can and do pass on to the baby through the placenta and also through the breast milk. And so you want to ideally, I would recommend my book for anybody that might even consider having a child at some point even 20 or 30 years from now if you’re you’re pretty young. And so the length of a headstart you give yourself them, the better your channels of elimination will be the less burdened your liver will be, the healthier your hormones will be and the fewer toxins that you will pass on to your baby. And therefore those toxins can inhibit cognitive growth and nervous system functioning.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No awesome answer. Do you have an idea of whether or not the traditional allopathic School of Medicine would embrace the concepts that you write about or do you feel like it would still be like 20 years down the line and he Even if then they would like what’s your thought on that?   Jaclyn Downs: A certain people are so dialed in to the way that they do things and just measuring hormones and prescribing hormones. So they may, they may or may not be receptive. I think it goes on an individual basis. But I would hope that the insurance companies would be the first to hop on board. Back when I was doing doula work. This was in the early 2000s. Before people even knew what a doula was. They would say, Oh, do you take insurance and I said, Not at this point. But if you call and ask your insurance company, and they see that more people are using doulas, and they have shorter hospital stays and fewer interventions, then, therefore, their hospital bill is lower, maybe the insurance company will start covering it. And I hope that they start doing that for functional medicine or even a functional fertility approach. Because I know a lot of businesses are now or companies are part of their insurance packages, or employee packages are support with IVF or any kind of assisted reproductive technology. And they could save so much money on those procedures that are also very invasive. By practicing from a functional fertility approach.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a big one for sure. And I’ve had a couple of podcasts about that Jacqueline, in terms of toppling sort of the big insurance companies, or at least allowing them to come to their conclusions that, you know, a penny earned, or a penny saved is, you know, more than $1 earned. And I feel especially in this area of health care where it’s super expensive for insurance companies to go down those routes. And the reasons the reason that women are having successful births is because of everything that you teach in the book. So all the more reason why to get on board, save money and get out of it, you know, it’s a win-win-win. But you know, common sense is, is not so common, unfortunately, you know, so yeah, I mean, so as far as Was there any particular chapter or any labor of love that was more so for you than any other chapter with the book.   Jaclyn Downs: Since learning about oxalates, a few years ago, and especially the fact that they are some markers, we can measure on urine organic acids test, far more people than I ever would have imagined have issues with oxalates. And especially because so many women are struggling with endometriosis, and there’s an association there. But the oxalates having an issue with oxalates can throw off your hormonal balance, but it also is these jagged, little crystals, irritating your, the linings of your glands in your tissues and your bones and muscles. And so they also create inflammation. So I think oxalates for sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you could call it like the gateway finding almost because if there’s Bloxwich, you have to think mold, you have to think leaky gut, you have to think fat absorption and utilization, mitochondrial dysfunction, there’s so I mean, if you have oxalates, you have now a whole big rabbit hole to go down to figure out why. But yeah, that’s a big one for my radar as well. So awesome. So as far as I always like to ask my client, the guests that we have on the show, Jacqueline, if you were to know what you know, now, and we’re able to kind of give these words of advice to the younger, I always say bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Jaclyn that would have accelerated your health or your less stress or just your thriving in life earlier. What would those words of wisdom be?   Jaclyn Downs: That’s a really good question. Well, as far as from a fertility perspective, I would say if you think you’re ever going to have a baby to start thinking about what’s good for that baby. Now, even if you don’t plan on getting pregnant for 10 to 20 years, because everything that you do now impacts the health of your child or the ability to get and stay pregnant years down the road.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s hard though. I don’t know if a 15-year-old is thinking necessarily about her body at that point, but I would hope you’re gonna What’s that? It’s true.   Jaclyn Downs: That’s so true. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and other, you know, ancient traditions like they did eat, you know, a fertility diet. Once they started. Once they hit a certain age or they were going to be getting married, they thought ahead about that stuff. So I think if we can just maybe start to shift the mindset or the paradigm a little bit. Possibly that would be ideal.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, it’s good. I mean, no, I always love that. And I’m glad that you’re, you’re bringing this book out into awareness. Because just as daunting as the environment is, and I, you know, had a couple of interviews with Bob and, and by the time he’s finished his and what were we thinking, smearing this on and putting this in there and it’s like, oh my gosh, like, I’m almost stressed out. By the time he finishes, like, what we’ve done to our environment, but at the same time, we have so as bad as it is bad, it’s good as it is good in terms of our knowledge, our awareness, our proactivity. And it’s not that the sky is falling, per se, we have the ability, hopefully, to continue to turn things around with the information we have. So as far as where do we I know you talked about this before we got on the call. There I don’t think there’s an actual publishing date yet. determine when will they be able to how would the listener be able to get their hands on this and And where will they go?   Jaclyn Downs: There will be as soon as I know there will be information on my website, Jacqueline Downes. com. That’s J, A, C, L, Y, N, D, O, W, N, S. And I will also be sure to have it get posted on your Facebook page as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’ll post it on my show notes and my website and all my social media stuff. So I’ll do that. So people will have the ability to look at that information. So thank you so much for your time. I appreciate your being here and what you give back to the world and being able to help women conceive healthy, happy babies.   Jaclyn Downs: Thank you. It’s been a lot of fun, and I love the messages that you are spreading with all of your guests as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you. All right. We’ll talk to you soon.   Jaclyn Downs: Okay. Thank you. To reach out to Jaclyn click here The post Functional Fertility and Adrenal appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright Hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly and I’m joined by repeat guests, Robby Besner. He is the Chief Science Officer, device developer, and co-founder of Thermosash, a premier infrared healing product and recognized as a world leader in infrared technology. He is also a prestigious Hippocrates, Health Institute, educational committee member, and a presenter at many, many medical integrative and anti-aging health conferences. And I’m just so excited I can go on and on Robby, but I only have a couple of short moments to get as much information as we can. And we want to start the interview and get into the good stuff. So thanks so much for being here today.   Robby Besner: My goodness, Joel, I love meeting and seeing you again and talking to you about the latest things that we’re doing. And certainly, I appreciate the opportunity to just address our new technology the things that we’re doing and share that with your community.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. I appreciate you being here as well. It’s always a wealth of information. And I like I said I was like the Wizard of Oz. I call you sort of like the guy with the gadgets that it’s always coming up with new innovative technology. And I had a client of mine asked me about your technology and asked me about the EMF harmonizer. And I was like, wait a minute what I don’t even know about this. So you said you’ve been it’s been in your, in your, in your systems for a while or in your products for a while, but now it’s standalone. So kind of give us the genesis of why how, what, where, and what it does. So people that are potentially exhausted and burnt out, don’t realize that these things that are in our environment are impacting them, and how you’re able to remediate those things.   Robby Besner: Right? Okay. So just from an educational, pure educational point of view. Um, there are so many different kinds of stressors in our lives. And you know, you being the adrenal ninja and the expert in that category certainly can speak volumes to how epigenetics our environment, different things, how it affects us, and how our bodies manifest it in some kind of physical. Not even necessarily a disease, but certainly some kind of health challenge symptom of sore. We’ve got this animal out there that is in our room, it’s a 500-pound elephant. It’s these exogenous frequencies, you can’t smell them, you can’t taste them, you can’t see them, you can’t hear them. Yet, it’s another big stressor out there. And as we’re seeing deeper into research, particularly with the pandemic and the challenges we’re having, it seems like microorganisms, that would be Candida parasites mold, that whole category, they get activated by these exaggerated frequencies, then the man-made frequencies, electromagnetic fields, EMF, and most people know about that if heard the term. And then there are other culprits. One would be that we’re focusing on now, which is e, l, F, extremely low frequencies, or the kind of the street name for it is dirty electricity, people have heard of that, but they don’t quite know what it is is means. Ultimately, what these frequencies do as all wavelengths, whether it’s light or sound, electric frequencies, magnetic frequencies, they’re wavelengths, and they oscillate, they move in a certain direction. And they also have certain amplitudes of power. And the problem with that, particularly with mF n LF is that these frequencies and RF, those are radio frequencies, by the way, like 24 gigahertz portable phones, for instance. And we’re talking about Bluetooth or wireless devices, for instance. So all these frequencies oscillate about 80 to 100 times higher than our body frequency, each of us our little body batteries. Every cell in our body is a battery, and, and we have a frequency. In the past, like in the 60s, it was called an R. Now it’s called like, I forget what they call a biofield. That’s the modern term. But essentially, we have a field of energy that surrounds all of us almost like a safety net. And it allows our body to perceive things in a different way than just sight, sound, and smell, and taste. So this is all good information, there are brains or processes, and most of it is done without us even thinking about it, frankly. So EMF became a category for me because any device that is plugged into a wall will generate a magnetic field and electromagnetic field that uses alternating current, which is the sockets that we have in the US that everybody plugs devices into. So if Robbie Basner device developer therapist is making healthy devices that help the body heal, and the plugin, like the infrared sauna, or the healing pads and so forth, I’m delivering great technology, but I’m also using electricity to do it. So am I generating an EMF? And what is the impact? How does it impact the integrity of the devices that we’re making in terms of the way our body interprets it and delivers that great, you know, solar energy to the body. So 20 years ago, when I got on this notion and research, I didn’t think that the cell phone business would get this enormous as in Bluetooth wireless everything and, and, you know, hybrid cars and Tesla battery-operated cars and, and hotspots. I mean, I didn’t think that futuristic or that in that magnitude.   I just knew that inherently, there would be a conflict with our body and man-made frequencies that are outside the realm of nature, in a sense. And so I said, Well, if I’m going to do the best job I’ve been delivering sun energy infrared frequencies in my devices, then Rni sort of getting in my way by delivering it through a system that’s also delivering EMF and the answer there is yes, what conflicted. So I decided to sort of school myself and develop remediating technology that would take care of the EMF problem. Okay, and most of that is what all the solutions, but not all, but most of the solutions out there, they shield and they block, okay, they shield an EMF or an elf, or they block it. Now, the problem with that is that it’s reactive, meaning they come out with 3g, I dial in my answer my solution for 3g, I get a completely integrated into my devices. As soon as it’s integrated, boom, they come out with 4g, now I got to dial it up, boom, they come out with 5g, and so on. And, you know, truth be told, we look up at the cell towers, and we think that they’re mostly just maybe three or 5g, but the government, our government, and our armed forces, bless you, God bless you. They’re using seven and 10 g now. So even though those towers, those towers aren’t just 5g, they’re sending out way more powerful frequencies, than what the general public thinks is, is going on, or is going on? Okay, so that being said, I got pretty good at remediating but always bothered me that I was always reacting to something rather than being proactive. And so one of my latest focuses your what you talk about, you know, I forget what you call me. But you know, the latest technology that I, Willy Wonka Yeah, well, yeah, Willy Wonka. And someone else coined a phrase and said I was the Steve Jobs of infrared. That’s kind of a cool, interesting way to look at it, you know. But the truth is, is that I’m just a regular guy. I’m a scientist, I am very lucky. I’m fortunate that I am dedicated my life and my business acumen to developing these devices. And I have the wherewithal to keep dialing up my technology don’t have to go to a committee to ask permission to employ research and employ the latest and the greatest of everything that we do. And that’s part of my thing. So, I kept on bothering me and this is over 15 years now that we were effective at shielding and blocking, like most of the other people out there. But it bothered me that we weren’t anticipating or looking forward or doing something proactive. And that’s when I stumbled on a concept called harmonizing. And if you go to our website, the latest solutions for EMF that we broke out that technology is already integrated into our saunas and our handling pads and the materials that we use, but now we have a standalone product that we call, Thera protect or Thera EMF protect. And essentially, it’s a particular kind of hologram. It’s like a sticker, it looks like a sticker. But it’s a material very particular material that we can imprint certain frequencies. And a lot of them are earthing frequencies like the earth charge and Safa Geel frequencies and 432 hertz, and so forth, we can, we can record and imprint these frequencies on this little chip, or it’s a chip, but it’s a hologram. And they hold and hold those frequencies and they emanate those frequencies. So if you stick one on your cell phone, or you stick it on your tablet or your laptop, or a device that’s generating EMF, like your network router, for instance, things like that, it will generate a frequency that supports your body field, your safety net. So now it’s kind of like um…   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s like the I keto of EMFs, right, I mean, cuz a keto is like using that person’s momentum and their force. Instead of being reactive. You’re using it to go against them. It’s like the keto of emf is really.   Robby Besner: Exactly, exactly well, and well put. Yeah, yeah, Joe. So So the thing about that is that we should know everybody out there should know that the problem with EMF isn’t the EMF itself, it is that it oscillates higher, but it’s that we can’t defend ourselves against it. Our shield isn’t strong enough. So that’s when it becomes a stressor. And when we’re immersed in the intensity of emf, then it collapses our biofield. And now rather than having a field of energy protecting us, that’s maybe three feet around us. It’s now right on our bodies and If the emf is strong enough and keeps pounding enough, it now becomes another stressor that, again, affects our epigenetics, which could be our real genetics, like our DNA and RNA. Or it could be simply just a stressor just to, you know, kind of squash your immune system so that you become more susceptible to pathogens and, or it could just be that it brings out another genetic proclivity that you may have, that you may never that was recessive that you may never be seen before. But now you’ve got this other stressor, modern stressor, you know, and so I’m loving this harmonization piece. And the work that we’re doing in this area, because it just goes on, there are so many fruitful frequencies, just like food that we eat that’s organic, that that is so healthy and important for our nutrition. So are these frequencies that are in nature that are all around us. Now we’ve already done that, as a company, we incorporate jade stone and, and different kinds of earth elements in our products. That’s the same idea, these stones, and these natural earth elements, generate frequencies that are very common, and important for our bodies to be healthy, but we don’t get them anymore, we’re starved from them. Because we’re modern, we wear shoes, we don’t touch the earth anymore. I know you’re different because I see you out walking every day. And I know that you’re wearing sneakers. So even though you’re walking, you’re not touching the earth, the soul of that Rubber Soul is insulating you. So even though you’re close to the earth, you’re not grounded, as if you would be if you were barefoot, walking in the sand or just going on your lawn in front, or maybe even hugging a tree, it sounds funny. But that tree is planted into the ground, those roots are grounded. And when you have that tree, you bring that Earth charge into you. And that balances your body battery. And it fortifies that field around you. And so what we’ve done is taken a page out of nature’s playbook. We’ve loaded up between 102 100 frequencies on these little chips. And then we make it as we do with all of our other devices and products and make it affordable so that people can get them to use them and create a healthy and happy environment for there for them to thrive in. So I know it’s a long-winded backdrop, but that’s kind of like what brought me the Genesis to where we are now on this topic.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s awesome information. There are so many angles we can go I’ll just sort of add from what I do Robbie is you know, I help people that are exhausted and burnt out and the term Adrenal Fatigue is not accepted. So then they go back and they call it an HPA axis dysfunction. And I’ve even told you, as you know that it goes deeper than that it impacts the ability of the cells just to produce energy at the cellular level. So you could look at it as mitochondrial fatigue. But as we unravel the science, we know that mast cells are activated from the environment. And EMFs is such a thing that activate the mast cells and mast cells produce free radicals, like superoxide and hydrogen peroxide and histamines and cytokines. And all of those things will damage the DNA. And it’s really weird. It’s like, it’s like, it’s like physics is like the redheaded stepchild when it comes to health practices because we all understand biology and chemistry. But when you start talking about frequencies and wavelengths, you start getting kind of woo-woo with people that don’t understand it, but you’re not because it’s a branch of the sciences. Right? So yeah, as far as I’m curious, what how, how far like, what’s the like if you What’s the coverage point of how those harmonizers work if you have them in your home? Yeah.   Robby Besner: Well, we make a few different applications. So the ones that stick on your phones and sell tablets and laptops and so forth, they’re generally three meters around, basically nine feet around you over and you know, in front and behind and so forth. We do make what we call a home harmonizer which uses three of these holograms. And that goes on what looks like a nightlight and you plug that into the wall and it generates a signal 2500 feet. So but it is a single plane signal meaning that if you have a split level, you’d have to get one on the second level, it’ll go on one plane 2500 feet, but not upstairs or downstairs. So of course you could always unplug it and move it if you want. Now, it not only sends out that signal that reinforces all living. That’s dogs, plants, people, little people, everybody But it also cleans the electricity that’s on the power line that’s feeding that socket. So that will influence the dirty electricity that might be coming from a different appliance that might be plugged into that same, same socket. So same principle, it’s all about fortifying our bodies and our fields so that we can protect ourselves the way nature and deliver created, you know, how it was created for us to work?   Dr. Joel Rosen: How do you determine the different frequencies? Do you have a setting on there to switch? Or what.   Robby Besner: That’s me. And, in my research, I’ve I have locked on and identified, what are the important frequencies that create a sustainable life system? And that’s what we’re implying.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You have three different frequencies or hundreds of different frequencies.   Robby Besner: No hundreds, there are hundreds, it takes more than two weeks to program these chips.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So it’s a chip in there that gets programmed and it admits simultaneously all these different frequencies. That’s correct. Gotcha. That’s awesome. That’s cool stuff. I’m like, Okay, I gotta get one. So that’s cool. But what I like about that, too, is that you know, we’ve had a couple of interviews in the past, which I’ll send links for people to listen to in terms of infrared. And, and the frequencies and why that’s so important. And so many people do have that concern as you said, and as a conscientious producer, that you want to make sure that your product is not having five pluses and four negatives, right? You want to have a net plus, and I love the concept of Well, how do we not block or shield but how do we, I keto the thing so that we work with it are a lot of other info. I mean, I look at it as you you’re not worried about competition because you can innovate faster than they can copy, right? Which is kind of cool. But are there other technologies and infrareds that are employing these remedial devices or blocking devices or not even things that harmonize at all?   Robby Besner: I don’t know of any other device developer that is harmonizing today to date. Gotcha. And frankly, we started this research, basically almost about three years ago. But I started jamming on it two years ago in terms of creating a production model that I could do integrate. And, like normal for Thermosash. We often employ incorporate upgrade our technology without up charging without doing anything like well, we do it because it’s the right thing to do, Dr. Joe and, and frankly, sometimes it takes us a year or so or more before we collect enough upgrades where we feel it needs to impact the cost of our goods, we want to keep our cost of goods very low to the consumer, their costs. So so as it is with this, we’ve been sticking we’ve been using these stickers, we’ve been integrating imprinting and these frequencies now for almost two years, the breakout of just the individual product is relatively new within the last year, year, year and a half or so. And it’s important. We do have other people in the infrared sauna business that we were doing honestly I’m being humble about this, we were one of the first on the block 15 or 18 years ago to identify EMF as being a problem. And and and even though we got a lot of pushback from the medical community and healthcare community, what is an EMF I’m not bothering with that I just I have my cell phones, I don’t care, you know, it’s a problem. And now it’s becoming more important for people that people are noticing. And so that’s part of my challenge because I’m forward-thinking and because I when I developed the EMF stuff 2015 to 20 years ago, I was what I thought was five to seven years ahead of my time and that’s the way I see this. This frequency how harmonizing technology, because we can prove it in science I can show with HRV with blood like blood, someone else’s I can do kinesiology, there are a lot of ways for me to show you that when you have one of my holograms one of my EMF devices, protection devices on you, it will build your field and make you stronger. We can do that. And we have done that. We did what was very close to a clinical trial or our IRB where we recruited you to know 11 to 12 practitioners 15 patient’s bed 150 to 175.   Participants, and we showed that our technology can improve the body strength in the body field, we’ve proved proven that. So, so but because it’s not quite mainstream, certainly five years ago, it was less mainstream. This is quantum physics. Not everybody’s read, the public isn’t truly ready for it yet, you know. And so I just do it because it’s the right thing. And then we start educating slowly as through different kinds of interviews like today and slowly get people to become aware of that these forces in nature exist, that you can harness them, and you can bring them around you, just as they have with the negative sides of things, we can also bring positive things around you, you just have to be aware that they exist, understand how you can get them. And then, of course, ask the right questions as you are today. And then eventually make a choice, and then just see how, how it affects you and your family. And, and it’s important, like another great example, the new mother, she brings her child home, the child’s two days old, right? She can’t wait to get into her jeans, the first thing she buys is one of these wireless devices, that’s a camera and a microphone on the child and then a remote camera or screen, and, you know, a speaker so that they can see and hear their child’s sleeping or if they need attention. Well, that’s an RF signal. This child’s brain has not even formed yet the connected dots, the neural pathways, they’re still forming up until the age of 18, or 20. Now, don’t you think that all of these exogenous frequencies that don’t belong in that room with that baby, which is part of that, and I’m not saying this, I’m not critical, I’m not coming from a place of judgment? If you’re a new mother, and you’re listening, and you have one of those devices, I’m not saying that you’re a bad person, I’m just saying you probably don’t even understand what those frequencies might be doing to your child. And if you didn’t know, you might think twice about actually having that device that closes to your child, because it’s not going to help in any way. It probably goes in the other direction. So so these are common things, because the companies that make cell phones, the companies that make all these devices, don’t give a hoot about your health. They’re just looking at that. The faster streaming the faster gaming, the faster this the faster that right. And truth be told the two committees that that opine that regulates is the FTC, the Trade Commission, and the FCC, the communication commission, those that those are the companies or the Commission’s that are government regulated, that determined what frequencies can go in these devices. Guess how many people are health-minded, that sit on the board of those companies, or those committees that make those decisions? And that they are none? right? Exactly. Yeah, exactly. There are no because they’re not concerned about your health. And that’s unfortunate. But I am concerned about your health, your health, and so are you. And everybody out there should be concerned about their health and take responsibility for their health. So if you’re using a cell phone, or you’re driving a Tesla, that’s wonderful, I applaud you. But do it responsibly and understand that some negative effects may happen, which is part of our discussion today. And then take action as to the simple things and affordable things that you can do to fix it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So in the Tesla, you would use the nine-foot or the three-foot radius for the Tesla for that.   Robby Besner: Yeah, but we put it depending on which one we probably have one or two of them, you know, in two different locations.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? So let me ask you this because it all leads to a very slippery slope. I know it does. And I know like, ignorance sometimes is bliss for people to not want to know about these things. But also, knowing the information being a concern, the conscientious person can be like, almost like anxiety-producing, right? Because to know, like, not even five g like seven G is being emitted from these towers. Like I think about the weapons that they’ve used that I used to see on 60 minutes where they showed how like you can throw a frequency into a crowd and cause them to disperse. That’s a pretty good idea of what frequencies can do to your body, let alone What about? Yeah.   Robby Besner: What about the heart program? What about all these weather devices, they’re shooting frequencies into our atmosphere and changing our weather. I mean, that’s how powerful these frequencies are, in terms of a force of nature, being a force of nature.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, how I mean, so I mean, again, I don’t want to go too down this rabbit hole. But I guess, how does it How were you able to deal with the hypocrisy and the lack of caring, and most importantly, the greed of wanting to make gazillions of dollars at risk of our health? And at the same time, you know, but pointing your finger at other things that, you know, you’re kind of wagging the tail kind of thing? Like, how do you deal with that I just as a personal friend, like?   Robby Besner: I don’t Yeah, I honestly don’t focus on things, I have no control over Jill. So, why get frustrated about a government agency or a failed community or failed healthcare system, you know, work on the solutions to all these, because that affects you and I and our families day to day every day. And so that’s what I that’s where I stay centered. And it’s really easy. When you immerse for me anyway, when I dive deep into my research and my development and then creating the collateral materials to help people understand how important this work is. You know, that’s, I’m not distracted by any of that. In terms of for my world, that’s all noise. And I just blocked that noise out and stay focused, laser-focused on the things that I feel are important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, like the Gandia frequency, right? I mean, at the end of the day, like, but you know what I would say, though, Robbie, let me ask you this. So talking about the studies, and I and I know in terms of Okay, explain to the user, or the listener here, like the statistically significant findings of being able to track and baseline someone’s stress response in way of HRV. The lower it is, the more you’re under sympathetic dominance, the higher it is your parasympathetic system is, is improving, and you’re not under stress. And that’s the outcome you’re looking for in terms of if you start with a theory, and you’re able to measure a and then measure an again, and give something as a stimulus to see what changes a and if it gets better, it’s improving. If it gets worse, it’s not what actually what did you guys discover with what you with some of the products that you have?   Robby Besner: Well, the studies were published, and I’m happy to give you the link. So you can forward that on Oh, perfect, okay. So, you know, I took a very, very straightforward clinical approach to the study. So we set up all the rules, and some of them you just identified, so we have a baseline, how you are coming in for the day. And then we introduced the stressor, which was in this case, an EMF stressor, then we do another HRV, heart rate variability, and like you mentioned, but in lay terms, we’re measuring the way that your heart reacts to stimulus. So for people out there that don’t know about heart rate variability, imagine like if you know, you were in a jungle, or you were just camping, and all of a sudden, a big animal came up, you know, close to you, your heart would just basically come out of your chest because you were nervous and scared. That’s called fight and fight or flight. So you’re either going to fight that animal, or you’re going to run as fast as you can in the other direction, right. That’s what we call sympathetic or sympathetic dominance. And, and in today’s world, we have that stress, just with, you know, what’s going on with the pandemic, and just our normal lifestyle. China, life lives these days trying to survive, right? So we’re all feeling that in one way or another. And the longer you stay in that, that mode of being at the edge of your seat being anxious, the brain starts to say, like any chronic ailment, maybe this is the way you’re supposed to be for the rest of your life. But we all know it’s not right. And so, there’s a variance of the time it takes for your heart to go from an excited state to a calm state. And that’s what we’re measuring. So a healthy heart, a healthy autonomic nervous system will easily and quickly transition from being excited to being calm, and that’s when you’d get a higher HRV score. And generally, that’s a younger person. The older you get, the slower it is for your heart to like, readjust back. And so that that we vote for a little bit lower score, because we have developed proprietary heart rate variability, technology and we use that to measure all of our devices to make sure that they are meeting our specifications. We were able to employ that, that system in analyzing EMF with this particular device that we were looking at. So we measure your first bass level like coming through the door, we introduced the stress, which is the EMF, we take another measurement, we measure the difference between your normal state Coming in, and you’re excited state from the EMF. And so generally speaking, and about 96% of the time, that EMF caused your body physiology to actually decline greatly, and in some cases between 25 and 30%. So you had less power, you had less life, you had less vitality, okay?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Because more sympathetically driven, right meaning like you were in that sympathetic stress, not so much less, but you were ramped up, but there was less variance between your beat beats and you were more your vitality was impacted.   Robby Besner: Right? Another way to look at it is you just have so much energy in a given day. And the body in the brain, what it does is it kind of like the that’s like the command module where it takes that energy and decides to parcel it out to the areas that your body needs, the most of. So maybe 30% of that energy that every day when you wake up, is, is used for general just for body functions, breathing, thinking, eating, drinking, whatever things you don’t think about. And I know we’re running kind of short on time. So let’s be let’s, let’s get down to that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Love that love the information.   Robby Besner: So. So what does the brain do with the rest of it? Well, if you’re sick, it’s sending an army of energy to try to get you better if you just injured yourself with an acute injury is sending an army of energy to fix your elbow, wherever you hurt yourself. So so when I talk about vitality and total power, and it’s diminishing by 30%, that’s that free energy that should normally be there so that you can run faster, jump higher, you know, be happy, like just be present, stuff like that. Now that energy is being diverted, try to maintain homeostasis, which is a sort of equilibrium in your body energetically, to fight off the effects of this EMF and these exogenous frequencies around you. That’s the culprit. Because if you run out of resources, you run out of total energy, what happens to your field, it starts to collapse, because you can’t, you don’t have enough energy to keep it out there and to keep away all these frequencies that are hurting, you know, anyway. I think it’s super important that people become more aware of this, we’ve developed technology that you can slap on a device to remediate. But truth be told, kick off your shoes and walk in the sand, kick off your shoes, and walk on the beach, or be sorry, on your front lawn, and hug an oak tree and all that stuff and just get connected to earth in nature. Again, that’s the true, natural way to fix this. We’ve just modernized it and put it in ways that we can kind of fix our devices and patch up the areas of our lifestyles, modern lifestyles that are affecting us on a healthy way, in a healthy way for our health, it affects our health. So we can still have the comfort of all those devices without affecting our health. And that’s really what our endgame is here.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I mean, I love your the way you use the analogy, and I mean, hon Sally a call that adaptive energy. And ultimately you’re talking about metabolic reserves, and you have a certain amount of metabolic reserve for a given day. And ultimately, you don’t want to spend it fleeing from tigers are fleeing from EMFs. So to you know, finish off that study when you would then see the baseline go down or that adaptive.   Robby Besner: Then running with them, bring the EMF solution, stick it on the person’s body, then take another scan, and 97% of the people came back to their original strength. So they gain back that 30%. And then, about 35% of the there was 2%, as a very small amount of people that it just barely made it to get them back to normal. But most often, it enhanced their body strength by somewhere around 20 to 25%. So they swung back almost 50% from their low, which was the negative effects of the EMF, how it affected them. And that was pretty significant. The statistician that we hired take all the data and put it into a formidable essay. Couldn’t believe the results. And they were they, they were some of them were so you know, two 300% difference was so strong that I said. This is incredible people are not going to believe the study you know and so let’s knock those numbers out because they’re just too high and he said you know rowdy you the good the bad the ugly you can’t knock anything out it is what it is. So we reported as we were supposed to all the results and they really what was truly amazing.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And that was the pendant correct? Yeah, that was a pendant. Okay. Awesome. I mean, listen, I love talking this with this stuff with you. What I always like I gotta have some kind of insider secret privileges. What’s with you know, like, because we’re just you and I talking? Who else is listening? What else do you have coming down the pike? I’m always interested to know in terms of r&d, what’s going on? What’s new and upcoming for you guys?   Robby Besner: Well, as you probably know, we’ve developed a specialized light LED light-emitting device or diode, and it goes into trying light, the name of its try light because we have three distinct frequencies and every diode which is something unique. from an engineering point of view. Generally, LCDs are monochromatic, which means there’s a single frequency assigned to each bulb, we have three frequencies in every bulb. So we are three times more light energy emitting than most other diodes, I’d say close to all the other times on the market. And that’s what’s important because we’re looking as infrared specialists, we’re looking to get these special frequencies into our body. So the more and the more intense we can send those frequencies in, the more it’s going to help us on a cellular level and so important. The latest edition of the trying light is a cap that you wear that helps with both training, traumatic brain injury, TBI, and any neuro plasmic. differentials. And it also helps with regrowing hair. So that’s our latest Opus on that on that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That highlights they go into the infrared are those were Yeah, okay. That’s awesome.   Robby Besner: Now you’ve got the scope before anybody because I’m not gonna tell us to talk about it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. You know, what we got to have prevalent membership has to have its privileges, right? I mean, at the end of the day, so that’s always awesome. Hey, listen, I mean, I’m gonna switch up I usually ask a different question. I usually ask Hey, what would you tell the younger Robby that you didn’t know then that you know now, but I would say what’s most surprising to you in the evolution of Robbie and where you’ve started with and where you are now? And you know, kind of like had this like what would be the biggest surprise in terms of if you look around and like kind of take a look at where you are now whereas where maybe you thought you would have been whether mentally physically spiritually what would you say the biggest surprises for you there.   Robby Besner: You know, I wake up every morning feeling blessed that I’ve been given a new breath and the opportunity to use my resources, my brain, my intuition, and how I’m guided by my surrounded by the voices in my head, my guidances I am amazed. And I’m blessed to have the ability to connect to my higher power and to use that information in the development of the things that that I make. And I do and that I’m gifted and I can bring it into your home, that’s going to make a difference to you and your family. To allow you guys to live the life that you’re supposed to live the find your purpose find your bliss, and be able to live that in a healthy manner. Contrary to everything else that’s around us these days, a broken healthcare system, challenges with the economy, like all these other things that are going on, is, I think are things that are preventing us from actually finding our bliss. Because we’re so concerned with so nervous, we’re so this was so that, right? So we’ve lost focus on the real game. Okay, in my mind. Anyway, um, the younger Robbie always communicated with this higher power but didn’t always listen. And in my 30s, I decided that the higher power is smarter than me. So it’s time to start to listen to what they’re saying, not just listen like its chatter. And so I put that to the test. And I do it every day. I’m constantly interviewing and asking myself is this right and getting downloads that tell me I’m on the right track. And you know what, then the world keeps turning and creating new opportunities and creating new ways to keep dialing up what we do?   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome man, I think what’s great is I think you’ve used frequencies, proactively to help other people, but also to help you help other people too. So that’s awesome. Hey, Robbie, I always appreciate these interviews, what I’ll do is I’ll have links to be able to, how to see how to get these products into their own homes. And I always look forward to our next conversation. So I wish you and melody the best in the future. And I look forward to hearing about all the great things that you’re doing.   Robby Besner: Thank you, thank you again for having me. And you know, we should do a special offering or a bundle or something for your community so that they get incentivized not just to listen in and hear more, but also maybe take a try at some of the things that we’re doing and bring it into their houses and experience the stuff that we’re about. Yeah, well, Dr. Joel Rosen what do you I mean, we could talk off-air, do you want to kind of just throw something out there like a special bundle or not? What do you want?   Robby Besner: Yeah, it’s not my area.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s okay, we’ll figure it out. Once we figure out what the special bundle is, then I’ll post it on my socials, and then people will be able to get access to that.   Robby Besner: Totally. That’s just the way to do it. Awesome. Thanks, Robbie. My pleasure, great hat. It’s great being here today and appreciate being here.       The post How To Harmonize EMF’s Impact On Your Body appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: All right, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m joined with a repeat guest, part two, we had just had a conversation at the end of June and we will send the link for that interview. But we’re here with Brandon Vermeire, who is the Chief Scientific Officer and CEO of metabolic solutions, Institute for functional health and fitness practitioners. His goal is to bridge the gap between health coaches and functional medicine practitioners through better education. He’s also a keynote speaker, mental and metabolic researcher, writer, and functional medicine consultant. His background is in fitness and nutrition. And he’s one awesome guy, Grant. Brendan, thank you so much for being here today.   Brendan Vermeire: Thanks for having me. Dr. Joel, the last conversation we had was super fun. My audience loved it. And it was so good. There are so many good nuggets in there, we use some of the recordings and to create like little mini videos, but such a wealth of and I felt like we fed off each other so well. So I’m excited for part two.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I’ve just listened to it again the other day, and I was noticing just all the things that we had in common from personal training and mental health and exercise physiology. But I’m sure you’re not aware of this brand. And where I think the tie that binds us together as we both have experiences in scrubbing toilets for work history in our past.   Brendan Vermeire: Or no, yeah, I mean, he got saved somewhere, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, listen, I mean, listen, I guess if you’re getting down and dirty in that aspect, you got to have some kind of camaraderie with someone else who, who knows what it’s like to do that. So yeah, I mean, So ultimately, we had talked about a lot of different things. We talked about specific adaptations upon oppose demands where if you’ve exercised, you know that you have to go a little bit more than your body’s capable of doing if you go less, you don’t stimulate a response. If you go too much, you create turmoil, or in this case, pain. And you mentioned how much that is, can be applied to everything in the body. We got into this being disconnected, we got into basically facing your fears and facing the tough stuff. And that’s really what we wanted to talk about today in terms of the inner working, have your why and things that are unresolved. And it may feel good to do other things that aren’t as challenging if you will, but at the same time, you’re not getting as deep as you need to cut loose of those anchors. So maybe, I don’t know, how do we start from here, given that that’s where we want to go down today?   Brendan Vermeire: You know, that’s a really interesting kind of setting the stage and what just clicked in my head was, I just last night had a little bit of a nightmare. That kind of came out of nowhere. And I have had, I guess, you could say recurring nightmares for the past, like seven years of my life. And they all revolve around what was easily the hardest and most traumatic, you know, the season of my life that was you know, riddled by, you know, manipulative narcissism and mold illness and tons of stress and mental illness and psychiatric drugs, this whole dark season in my life that I guess in some ways, still haunts me to this day. And that’s where, you know, I do a lot of work around the topics of obviously mental illness, one, in particular, being PTSD, right. And I think there’s a lot more, you know, trauma awareness these days. And I’ll just say right now, I think awareness is a double-edged sword where, okay, well, the first step to healing is awareness. But at the same time, you can’t use awareness as a crutch, and you can’t take on that identity. You don’t want to take on the identity of a traumatized or a mentally ill, like don’t allow it to become your identity. But you also don’t want to be negligent, of a very real psychological, psychosomatic and physiological dysfunction or illness or disease or whatever you want to call it. So I think there’s, you know, large conversation to be had on the kind of untangling you know, where there’s physiological Science and origins of what’s going on in the body when somebody is stressed, or traumatized or depressed or whatever. And then there’s kind of the psychological side of it as well. And how do you untangle that mess? Because even as much as I like to think that I’m fully healed, healing is an ongoing journey. I don’t think there’s a start and finish it’s you become more resilient. He learned how to manage your health struggles more effectively. So even just that kind of nightmare last night that came out of nowhere that put me right back into that dark season of my life that during the day, No, I’m good. I’m healed. I’m done with all that that’s in the past, but your body remembers, right. And that’s kind of getting into that PTSD spectrum, or how trauma and negative toxic emotions can get trapped in the tissues, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, yeah, a springboard from there. So we had talked about neuroplasticity, and how I know the way if I bend my finger like this, and I hold it there long enough, and I do this, it’s going to bend back down. And ultimately, that’s what we had started to talk about in terms of neuroplasticity, how can we read repattern or rewire the brain so that they fire together in positive things that are congruent with health and not necessarily negative, and I would agree with you in terms of, on the one hand, you don’t want to be labeled. That’s a big thing. Like, okay, you want people are looking for the one diagnosis so that they have confidence that they’re not an anomaly or that doctors have seen this before. And they’re not, there’s, it’s not like a weird one-off thing. So they feel great about that. But then, on the other hand, they become labeled by that. And they don’t realize that maybe this is a good step talking point in terms of the relationship between neural plasticity and not realizing that there’s an addictive tolerance, sort of almost automatic loop going on in people that they’re not even aware of. So maybe talk about that in terms of Hey, you, and especially with stress, people don’t realize from post-traumatic stressors, when the vets come back from crazy experiences, and the suicide rates are so high, it’s because they have it’s like a crackhead stopping crack overnight and not having that titrating down. After all, they don’t realize the brain has plasticized into a way that is so I get so intense. So maybe kind of talk about that. And we can kind of go from there.   Brendan Vermeire: No, you hit the nail on the head there. One of my favorite sayings is that thoughts become proteins, where, you know, classically we say thought thoughts become things, you know, our thoughts in our envisioning become the manifestation of the story of our lives. And so I like to take that one step further to apply more the epigenetics and physiology to it of thoughts become proteins, right? Our psychological experiences are the stimuli that create the specific adaptations to impose demand to then create our physiology or giving the stimuli to the physiology of how do we adapt our physiology to be better adapted and suited for that stimuli. And so that’s why you know, the finger thing or the working out thing, it’s, that’s exactly what it is. And so if you apply that into the context of, you know, a traumatic experience, which now it’s more recognize that trauma, just like autism, it’s a spectrum. It’s, it’s not all or nothing, it’s not one or zero, black and white, it is a spectrum of, you know, very severe trauma, like you alluded to, you know, you’re at war man, Afghanistan, and you see your battle buddy get killed, right, it’s extremely traumatic. And the way I kind of describe it is like a, it’s like a bruise in a physical injury to your nervous system, you know, to your autonomic nervous system to your central nervous system, you just witnessed something that, you know, ideally, no human should ever witness and if you put it into kind of an evolutionary context, it makes sense, right? Like if you’re a baby monkey, and you’re getting too close to you know, the dad monkey who’s hoarding all the food, as male monkeys do, you know, you get a little too close, you’re gonna get slapped, you know, the big monkey is gonna slap that little monkey. And that’s, that’s traumatic, in a sense, but that’s also that creates the neural adaptation that that little monkey knows to not do that, right. It’s a safety mechanism. So we don’t put ourselves in the same situation that caused us so much danger and pain. So even though PTSD and trauma Uh, in our, you know, kind of neuroplastic response to that trauma, it’s very unpleasant and it can increase, you know, neuro limbic dysregulation, HPA, dysregulation, inflammation, Gene immunosenescence, chronic inflammation, the list goes on mental illness as a side effect of all that, so on and so forth. But ultimately, it’s still just your body trying to protect you of like, Hey, remember that one time that you were in a situation that was dangerous, and scary and traumatic, let’s be hyper-vigilant to anything that feels reminiscent of that so that we can selfly Preserve. So it is a survival mechanism. But it comes with all these unwanted, you know, side effects that we get triggered, right? Anything that comes close to our trauma trigger points just sends us into a very real kind of autonomic nervous system reaction that is kind of inappropriate, like it, you know, a very inappropriate response to a mild trigger, because it touches those trigger buttons.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great explanation. And you look at that as sort of that limbic center wind up and the neocortex and the difference between the primitive reptilian brain and it’s almost like sort of a blessing in disguise. And you know, ignorance is bliss, I always love the story of the watering hole. And the zebras don’t have ulcers, and, you know, they don’t have a meeting after Hey, like, we need to have like, a sit-down. And every Tuesday, let’s meet over the watering hole to discuss how like you were almost killed and how that made you feel. It’s just like they, you know, don’t have that thought process. And hence, they don’t have ulcers, you know, because they don’t have that neuroplastic wind-up. As far as we wanted. I wanted to talk to you about the new craze, or it’s not so much new, but in 2019, Dr. SEPA in Napa, or the Silicon Valley talked about dopamine fasting, and for people that we work with that are overwhelmed and in fight or flight, and it impacts their stress response. And they don’t have motivation and drive. And I think, to one extent, or another brand, and everyone who’s around and can put a thought together in today’s day and age has some spectrum of that, as you mentioned. And ultimately, I guess, what I see is, is that dopamine along with iron dysregulation along with mold, along with EMF along with histamine along with oxalates, we’re seeing in the research how that creates over activation of the mast cells and this whole inflammatory thing. So I think it’s an important topic to talk about, well, what is this dopamine fasting concept? And how can we apply it to be able to take at least one line out of the water?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, you know, it’s, I think you did a good job with the zebras and whatnot, because, you know, where are animals? If they go through a traumatic experience, which, you know, animals in the wild, they go through much more traumatic things. And we typically do in our, you know, at times cozy suburb. Now, some people experience very manosphere trauma, whether it’s a car accident, or whatever. So I’m not trying to invalidate anybody’s traumas by any means. But the difference between humans and animals, we replay it over and over and in our head, we obsess over it, we relive it. And that just becomes our reality. Animals don’t do that now, why are they just don’t have the cerebral function that we do. But we keep reliving it, we keep replaying it keeping ourselves stuck in that sort of trauma-based fear-based fight or flight response and it just eats away at us internally in so you know, with dopamine fasting and everything, we do live in a culture in society that is very addicted to instant gratification. So I think the collective needs to start looking at their behaviors and their beliefs a little bit more where we’re all very conditioned to, I don’t feel the way I want to feel so I should go talk to my doctor and take this pharmaceutical or I’m going to self medicate with you know street drugs or I’m going to self medicate, self soothe with you know, caffeine and alcohol and cannabis or sex or gambling or, you know, whatever. Or if that’s more kind of like toxic self-soothing behavior, as opposed to more self constructive, like, I’m gonna do a functional medicine protocol. I’m gonna take some supplements I’m going to work on my sleep hygiene and my stress management and I’m gonna exercise so there are different ways of trying to, you know, give the meat to give the central nervous system, what it needs so that we can feel the way that we want to feel, but I feel like the big thing that people don’t look at are The behaviors, right, they’re much more apt to reach for a pharmaceutical or a drug or a potentially self-destructive, you know, activity or behavior. Or even let me do all the lab testing and get that silver bullet, you know, supplement protocol. Whereas if we look at more the behavior in the beliefs in the psychology of, you know, what is dopamine associated, it’s associated with instant gratification, whereas delayed gratification, the research shows is associated with a greater serotonin response. And so it’s not just about giving ourselves the substrate, the material, or the stimuli to induce that neurochemical sensation that we want to experience. We have to take ownership of we can modify our neurochemical experience through our behaviors. And so what I’m getting at is with dopamine, right, you know, Instagram, like, how many likes did I get? How many comments did I get, like, let me post you know, skin pic? So I can get some external affirmation to feed my empty soul. Right? Whereas delayed gratification gives us more of a serotonin response. So if we want more serotonin, we want to feel happier and loved and Levine Well, maybe if we practice a little bit of discipline and a little bit of delayed gratification, we can amplify our serotonin response, naturally, behavior-wise, rather than, like, let me go get an SSRI or whatever. So I think that’s the overlooked piece. People just want that pill for an ill or that silver bullet protocol, because they don’t want to change their behaviours. They like their behaviours, they’re addicted to their behaviours. So dopamine fasting is exactly that. It’s kind of having the discipline and self-control to refrain from that just kind of toxic self-indulgent behaviour, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s great. So it could be switched from not so much. I mean, we’re never gonna eliminate dopamine. And I think when he wrote the article, there was a lot of misinterpretation interpretation in terms of, Okay, if I can not release it as much, I could have a higher high when I do finally release it again. And that wasn’t the point. The point was to be able to manage the unhealthy conditioned, short-term gratification responses that ultimately cut inwards, right, and ultimately keep you in overwhelm, and how to change it from more of instant gratification to delayed gratification. And that’s where we can go in two angles, the first angle, or the first road I’d like to go forth would be in terms of Okay, well, what are some of the suggestions that we can do to delay those gratifications cuz I know, for me, I know when I get anxious, and I do have a lot of anxiety more than I even realized that I have to figure out, okay, what’s triggering this, and it’s a whole sense of overwhelming. I’m in the middle of writing a chapter for my book, and then I have 25 things that I want to say, and I’m in one thing, and I’m thinking, Oh, I didn’t talk about this, and I want to talk about that. And then I get that analysis by paralysis, and I want to go on the internet and sir is like, okay, like, identify what’s going on here and just chill out, Joel, you know, why are you doing this? Like, take a deep breath? Where What’s your problem? Like, you know, figure this out, untangle the the the yarn. So I wanted to get into that. But I also specifically wanted to get into what you just talked about in terms of that unresolved, hurt post traumatic child, and how we, how we identify that which I think the two are kind of related. Right. So what are some tools that we do to switch from an instant gratification person to delayed gratification?   Brendan Vermeire: Oh. You know, when you’re describing yourself as like, are you describing me or yourself or, you know, probably a lot of the listeners, I think, I think we can all resonate and relate without a lot. And again, I mean, I blame a lot of society’s problems on big tech and media and everything, because, like our feeble little monkey minds are not evolved or equipped to handle the overwhelming, never-ending stimuli of the matrix world that we plug into all the time. And so that I mean, talking about tools, right? unplugging from this chaos right here. You know, this, this is a tool. It’s a double-edged sword. It’s seen your hand in your pocket all day, every day. And for one thing, it’s blasting you with EMF, right, which is why I have the safe sleeve on here. So there’s that EMF conversation. That’s probably a different conversation for another day. But you know, this thing like Instagram, you’re scrolling through your newsfeed It never ends. There’s no such thing as a bottom to your newsfeed. It will keep feeding you the whole point of social media is to steal your time to collect information. To sell it to big Corp, so then they can promote their product to you. That is what the algorithm is designed to do. You know, its goal is to get you online and keep you online for as much time. So it’s a matter of Do you have the discipline to unplug, right. And so, you know, I mean, we all live and operate in the virtual world anymore, which is fine. But you know, I’m the virtual entrepreneur. But as soon as we’re done with this conversation, I’m going for a nature walk. And I do that almost every single day because that’s my way of unplugging from the matrix and plugging back into reality, the natural world that we did evolve in. And so that’s like my best recommendation, like when you’re feeling paralysis by analysis, and overwhelmed and stressed and scattered, and all these things, like, unplugged from the virtual world, go outside, go do some earthing get that sunlight, go for a walk in nature, like taking the stillness, nature is so-called instill in soothing, whereas we psychologically, cognitively, just spin ourselves out of control. And our brains are being pulled in a million directions all day, every day. And that’s not, it’s not healthy, it’s not sustainable. And, you know, that’s why, like, I think, unplugging and plugging back into the natural world is the single best thing you can do.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Sure, for sure. And I mean, just the fragmentation of the mind. And having so many windows open and running at the same time, ultimately, a computer’s going to run slower, so are we going to run slower. And I like the idea of just, I mean, you know, common sense isn’t so common, but you know, turn off your notifications, or have a hard stop, and a hard start and show that discipline. So as far as the inner child, and or the things that people put on us that we don’t realize that we still carry that impact, our plasticity and our need for positive reinforcement, or the need for the avoiding of the negative reinforcement, which is the double-edged sword of what social media is, it’s so sinister if you think about it, how these I mean, I know there’s the social experiment, or whatever, I don’t remember what it was, I think that’s what it was called, where they basically can, can polarized world and only give you biased information based on your clicks. And I don’t think it was premeditated. But it was certainly sinister in the sense that if we know how people learn, and how the reward centers work, we can profit on this by making it more addictive for that purpose. Right. So one of the things that I say, and this would be a good segue to you is what if you can look back at anything that’s happened to you as much as it’s been horrific and unfair and unjust? And it’s not right? Because it isn’t, and you can tell whatever story you want would be justified, but does it serve you in getting healthy and ultimately growing from it? So one of the things that I’m saying in the new course that I’m producing is the if you can look back at whatever event that’s happened in your life, and look at it was a loving parent, and see that child as an innocent, pure child, but also in terms of explaining to that child that even though you don’t see it, now, this has happened for your highest purpose. And then that way you reframe the event that happened. And then you’re able to look at all of these trials and tribulations is happening from you to be able to achieve where you want to get to, it’s not happening to you or for you, it’s happening from you, because you needed that obstacle to ultimately have that specific impose, you know, adaptation to the demands that you’re having. But it’s not meant to be smooth sailing. So I don’t know maybe where can you kind of piggyback off of that concept?   Brendan Vermeire: Totally. My friend and client, Dr. Nicola para has done a lot of really, really good work around that. And she calls that re-parenting, you know, the wounded inner child and has popularized that concept. Because obviously, it was a Freudian psychology kind of one on one if going back to the childhood and, you know, now we have a little bit more kind of mechanistic understanding of what’s going on in that individual’s neurology that explains what we’ve been observing psychologically and behaviorally for, you know, decades and decades and decades, right. So, when we’re born into this world, you know, we’re kind of a blank slate. I mean, not Fully because we could talk about genetics and microbiome and, you know, we are kind of programmed to some degree already, but for the most part, you’re a blank slate and your, your mind is just this very, very, very plastic, malleable, you know, gray matter. And it’s immediately just taking in all the overwhelming stimuli of reality and trying to make sense of it and trying to, you know, build the architecture of a belief system that allows us to survive, ultimately, and kind of Thrive secondarily to that. And so that’s, you know, Darwinism kind of one on one. But that’s why to like, you do have to go back to the origins of your childhood and your, your domestic caters, and I don’t say domesticate her in a bad way. But whether it was your parents, or you had, you know, step-parents or foster parents, or you’re raised by your big brother, whoever it was, we have to look at your social interaction and the environments that you were in. And you know, how safe or not safe were those emotional environments were those environments that allowed you to feel heard, seen, loved, understood, respected, cared for, or was a tougher environment where, you know, you had to create false belief systems to, you know, blend in or hide or fit the mold to evade, right? Like, we’re all just creatures of adaptation for the sake of survival. And so, you know, some people may be had that warm, fuzzy childhood, and other people maybe didn’t. But whatever behavioral patterns are continuing to plague you as an adult, they, yeah, you have to get, you have to pull that thread and get to the origin of where did I learn this behavioral pattern. And like, he makes a lot of sense, where you see how, oh, this behavior and this belief, it served me well back then it allowed me to get through that time in my life. But this pattern is not this pattern, and belief isn’t serving me anymore. So I need to create new neuro-plastic networks and new neural networks that are by a new behavioral pattern and a new belief system. So that’s really what’s going on. But it is a lot harder as an adult because your brain is much more plastic and malleable as a kid. And you get all these belief systems programmed, and it sculpts your minds. So you kind of get spit out into the world as an adult, and you’re like, Wait for a second, I’m living a life, that’s not my own. Because I’m living in a way that’s my beliefs that are not my own. They were programmed into me. And I have to deconstruct that programming and create new programming that’s in alignment with who I want to be how I want to show up in the world. How do I want to experience this reality? And it is, it’s harder to break down some of those past behaviors and past neural networks through neuroplasticity, and synaptic trimming, and pruning, which are what microglial cells do, and then build these new neural networks. And that’s, you know, ultimately, this is why with, you know, functional medicine and coaching, when we’re working with patients and clients, ultimately, we’re trying to behavior, change their behaviors, which means we have to change their habits, we have to change their belief system. And that’s ultimately what we’re doing is trying to coach them through the process of building these new neural networks and your body kind of follows where your mind goes. So that’s why this type of integrative, you know, the psychology and behavior side of it, but also the neuroplastic physiology side of it, you kind of have to put their hand in hand to be able to, you know, what do I need to do to support my brain as it’s changing the way it’s wired, as far as what I nourish it with, but also you still have to take control of your mind. And that’s where, you know, catching yourself of like, you catch yourself spiraling, spiraling down those toxic belief systems, and you’re just replaying it, reliving it, which just further solidifies that outdated neural network and no, catch yourself, cut yourself off and choose like, No, I’m not going to let myself replay that again. And again, I’m going to choose a new way of looking at this situation, a new response, that’s where in between stimulus and reaction, there’s that moment in between and that’s really where all the power is.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there are lots of lots of power in what you said there. You know, I think the first thing I think of if someone’s watching this, like Well, hey, I don’t have the money to go for years of therapy because it sounds like I need to go for years of therapy and be like I don’t want to so I think it’s really important for people even if they don’t want to at some point you know, universal law, which we talked about last time as a problem does become a crisis. And you can continue the impossible what they call insanity In a way of doing the same things over and over again and thinking you’re going to get a different result. But what I think is a good segue, though, is what you talked about last time, too, is when you were training clients, and you weren’t so focused and fixated on the the the milestone of what is your new weight you’re more fixated on Okay, is your vo two max improving? Is your strength improving, because these will be not only new behaviors to get to the new outcome, but these are the things that work that physiologically need to happen? So what are some of the physiological things that need to happen without going through years of therapy to be able to address some of these plastic changes that weren’t healthy and almost forced upon us without our permission?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, it’s you know, that, in its essence, is essentially like the story of my career at this point where everything that we’re talking about, it probably does sound maybe a little bit intimidating or daunting of like, Wait, you’re telling me to like reprogram my brain, like, you know, 30 4050 years in where it’s gotten very stuck in that form, right, and you do lose plasticity, as you age, it becomes harder to write, it’s kind of like, if you apply the fitness analogy, if you’ve never been an athlete, you’ve never been physically active, and you’re just becoming physically active for the first time in your life. At the age of 30 4050, it is so much harder to train your body that way. Now, don’t get me wrong, it’ll still respond, you know, you can’t use that as a crutch of why just better not even try. But it’s a lot harder, your body has become a little bit more rigid and less adaptable. You know, and so that’s where individuals that were athletes growing up, they do have big advantages. They’ve trained their nervous system and their musculoskeletal system, they have those neural networks, right? It’s kind of like learning to ride a bike as a kid is probably a lot easier than trying to learn how to ride a bike as an adult or something. But ultimately, this is why I’m just so passionate about these types of conversations. Because when you look at you know, the standard American diet and lifestyle and all these kinds of standard American factors that promote chronic disease, comorbidities, mental illness, the list can susceptible to infectious disease, you know, the list goes on and on and on. I think we’re at a point where we have so much toxic psychological stimuli with social media, mainstream media, the polarization, the fear-based propaganda that’s being, you know, forced into our psyches by the government. And, you know, our I feel society is becoming increasingly volatile and toxic at times. So we have this, overwhelming psychological stimuli that, you know, conditions us towards more mental illness. But then the physiological side, right, where we look at, for example.   what is it 43% of Americans are diabetic or pre-diabetic or something like that, you know, 88% are metabolically ill 70% are overweight or obese? And we know that there’s a very, very direct correlation between you know, higher body fats, you know, fatty liver insulin resistance and inflammation, we know that inflammation drives mental illness. And we see this reflected in the code morbid epidemiological data of the diabetes belt of America consumes more psychiatric drugs than the rest of America and America consumes more psychiatric drugs than the rest of the world. So we are doing something very, very wrong with mental health in America. And it’s a huge psychological and physiological problem, because, for example, insulin, which you know, talking about insulin resistance and diabetes, insulin, or insulin as a hormone promotes neuroplasticity. Insulin resistance does exactly the opposite. Because if we don’t have healthy insulin signaling, we can’t induce neuroplasticity, we can’t create new neural networks. So that’s just like one of the 1000s of examples that I could give, but like, you know, all the interleukin six from higher body fat levels and all the insulin resistance, you know, those are two major mechanisms that are not even getting into mold and microbiome and nutrient deficiencies and all these other functional medicine subjects. But just the point being metabolic illness disrupts our ability to create new neural networks and new neurons, which is why metabolic illness like what is a neurodegenerative disease, it’s chronic neuroinflammation. It’s all it is. And essentially chronic neuroinflammation, neurodegeneration, neuroplasticity, and neurogenesis are the opposite of neuro digital So you have to be thinking about yours, the homeostasis of your central nervous system. And if there’s all this damage and not enough regeneration, what happens? That’s the definition of neurodegeneration for and that’s why Alzheimer’s is the sixth leading cause of death for Americans suicide is number 10. So it’s like it and then diabetes is like number seven or something. It’s like, Don’t you see a link there? And not right? Because then you go watch mainstream media and it’s like, go get your super slush from Sonic and then the next commercials for Trulicity demand your type two diabetes and next commercials for invoke to manage your rheumatoid arthritis. And the next commercial is McDonald’s. Like, we are feeding the masses. So this is why like, you can’t you literally cannot afford to be an unconscious consumer because of the lifestyle and what is accessible and cheap and affordable and being fed to you. It just promotes chronic season mental illness, period.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m you’re almost making it. So there’s a part three, you’re doing that on purpose. To go down that rabbit hole for sure. I think the best one is the sponsoring of the vaccine by getting, you know a lifetime’s or year supply of Krispy Kreme. I mean, if there’s not a bigger towel than where the wrong emphasis is on, and it just really floors me that there is no more public health. parrot. I don’t even know what there is no public health anymore. And anyway, but as far as what I think the good news is, is that, as daunting as that is, again, we talked about this last time in terms of the Goldilocks, you need a balance, you do you need growth factors and breakdown factors. And you need a balance of sympathetic, parasympathetic, and over-stimulation and under-stimulation, what I think unfortunately is happening now is environmental, like genetics haven’t changed environmentally, you have roundup and pesticides that lower the ability to lower your glutamate now you have excitotoxicity measured with everything that we’re talking and anxious. Very sensitive, very true, you know, trigger happy to go off the the the loose end people with the smallest little provocation like the worst of the worst. But on the flip side, the best of the best. I mean, I don’t think in any day and age where science put together like there’s this psycho neuro Immuno and the Korean gi this is they’re all the same. So on the flip side, at least we have the shining, you know, the sort of the saving grace that we have a lot of great tools to be able to come out of this. And one of the things I’m interested to talk about is what you and I had the opportunity to talk about a little bit about what’s new for you. And you mentioned mental map and microglial testing. And I’m kind of curious to know, like, kind of what what is that? And what is that about? And tell me kind of let the listeners know what you have in store for making the world a better place?   Brendan Vermeire: Absolutely. No, I appreciate the opportunity. Because as we’re starting to kind of tease open. It’s such a huge convoluted complex problem. It’s huge. And it’s honestly, it’s one of those things, you know, like I do, I do everything I can, I mean, I live and breathe this work. I’m so passionate about it. And it’s like, you know, I’m constantly pouring out content through my platform. But like, you know, daily Instagram posts, like you can’t even get into the meat of it. It’s such a big, huge, complex problem. But ultimately, no, I mean, the government is not at all trying to increase the health of the general public. And it’s so frustrating to me, because like, obviously, I stay up to date, up to date with the latest research. But there’s such a huge time gap in between the latest research and scientific understanding and public health mandates, right. There’s such a huge problem with that, like, you know, mold is a great example where like, we know how bad and dangerous mold and mycotoxins are. And there are billions of people in Asia and Africa that eat mold-contaminated grains daily, and we have the research to show that. But there’s nothing in place for public health when it comes to you know, what do you do about that? Or how do we fix this global health problem? The research itself calls that a shamefully ignored global health issue. And that’s what’s happening in America with chronic illness and metabolic illness is you know, we’re not it’s really sad and this is what happens when capitalism goes too far in a toxic direction. You know, it’s big tech, Big Pharma big food in the government all in bed with one another. And they do they that system that’s not just a national to international global system it’s gone awry. And I don’t know, I don’t think it’s gonna get better anytime soon it’s it comes down to the consumers, the public, we have to choose health. The beautiful thing about capitalism, it’s a double-edged sword if it goes awry it leads to where we’re at. But with education and awareness of what the problem is, more and more people are starting to feel like there is something deeply, deeply wrong with what’s going on. And they’re choosing to let me look outside of what’s being fed to me to see what’s going on here. Let me use a little bit of critical thinking. So this is why you know, holistic health and functional medicine is kind of this exploding infectious in a good way, movement because people are kind of waking up and like, well, this doesn’t make sense, like, you feed us stuff that makes us fat and sick, and then you, you know, sell us your drugs. And then I have to take another drug for this drug’s side effects. And it just spirals right. We have to choose health and the market goes where the consumers go. So as more and more of the public start choosing a healthier way of living. The market goes there, unfortunately, which breaks my heart right now and which is why podcasts and conversations like this are so great. His functional medicine and holistic health stuff are very not accessible. It’s a luxury, good.   You know, so I think functional medicine and holistic health as an industry as a movement, we have to start encroaching on the masses because we’re not accessible by them. But that’s why, you know, we all are pouring out content and shouting from the rooftops of our internet platforms trying to help people we’re in the business of helping the government and everything, they’re in the business of disease. Right? So this is where, you know, something I’ve been trying to do is like, how do we make this kind of education and content in these resources more accessible. So one of the things that I’ve done is create a lab test called the mental map. And map stands for microglial activation profile, which I think is super sexy. I was super excited when I came up with that. But essentially, what I wanted to do is, you know, conventional medicine and conventional psychiatry say there are no biomarkers of mental illness. Now, I could explain for an hour of like, why that is their perspective, I get it, but it’s self-interested based on their business model, essentially. Whereas, you know, a more holistic and functional business model. No, there’s a lot of biomarkers that are very, very valuable for assessing what’s going on with your mental health. Why are you struggling with your mental health, and it’s not a single biomarker, so I designed a panel of all the most relevant and clinically established clinically significant biomarkers and put it into a proprietary panel with, you know, hundreds of research citations, we’re applying the latest, greatest science so that way, you know, we can get this data into the hands of the people who need it, where, as far as they know, I have a major depressive disorder, I have PTSD, I just have to take these psychiatric drugs forever. And do you know talk therapy with a therapist forever, there are no objective data to qualify what’s really going on physiologically, and then you don’t have a way of measuring progress. Like that’s why I’m such a big advocate of lab testing. Like in our last conversation we talked about, yeah, for a weight loss program, don’t use the scale as your way of evaluating progress used like blood work, it’s way more sensitive, you’re gonna see those biomarkers change long before the scale.   The same thing with mental illness and transcending mental illnesses, you can’t fix what you don’t measure. But if you have all these biomarkers that are very sensitive in regards to what’s going on in your nervous system, and with your mental health, well, then you have a way of whatever you’re doing, whether it’s talk therapy, and journaling and self-help or supplements or lifestyle modification, at least now you have data to empower your understanding of what’s going on in your body. And you have a way of tracking progress. That’s objective, right. And one of the things about this is our neural limbic system or reward centers, we need to experience a reward for our effort. Otherwise, our body does not want to encourage more of that effort, because we’re just wasting time and energy. So it’s kind of like with the fitness of like if you’re working out hard every day but you’re not seeing there’s no way of feeling like you’re making progress. Your body’s like, well don’t bother going to work out like you’re not going to reap the rewards. For your efforts, why even do it? It’s the same way with transcending mental illness. If you never have an objective way of assessing progress, you’re just subjectively will do I feel better? Do I feel better now, I’m not going to do anything good for myself, it doesn’t help anyway. So I think something is empowering about data, you know, data, objective data, that showing on what’s going on inside your body, and how you are moving the needle on your health. So I created a tool that we’re using with practitioners, and we’re training practitioners how to use it and interpret it effectively for their clients and patients. We’re also delivering this beautifully branded report to consumers so that way, they’re more empowered in their understanding like I might have shared in our last podcast when I was first put on a psychiatric drug, it was just by my primary care physician like there was no blood work, there was no psychological psychiatric evaluation. Nothing just like oh, you feel depressed here. It’s SSRI young, 17-year-old Brendan, right. like nobody ever did any objective lab testing. And I just so deeply disagree with that sentiment of there are no biomarkers of mental health, that does not align with the narrative that scientific literature says, and it’s so self-interested and corrupt, where Yeah, that’s the narrative that they use conveniently to promote Big Pharma which runs the world. So I think the data starts waking people up the data, shows the truth, and empowers them to pursue a self-healing path and getting the appropriate help they need from their healthcare team. But I think data is very empowering. And I’m very hopeful that this test, this panel will empower people on their journey so that they can overcome their health struggles.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. It’s funny how you know, it’s there, it sounds like someone’s having their cake and eating it too. Like, on the one hand, there is no, there are no biomarkers for mental illness. But on the other hand, there is not necessarily having to do any biomarkers to do a prescription for you at the same time. It’s anyway, so the challenge I would have, though, would be potentially not getting lost in the minutiae of what the objective markers show if you are on the subjective self-actualization, or the, you know, the self, the life self-actualized. And you have different categories that you like to use as a tool, and I appreciate you sharing that, where you have different areas of your life that you’re subjectively rating on a scale of 10. And you don’t show them intentionally what their old scores were, what happens if I mean, chances are rare, I’m sure there’s a positive correlation nonetheless. But sometimes, you know, there can be a discrepancy between what the objective lab say, and what the subject says, especially if someone’s immune system has been ground zero, and they haven’t been they’ve had false negatives, and now they have real positives, but that shows that gets going worse, subjectively, but then at the same time, subjectively, I feel better, what happens in those instances?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, no, that can be a tricky thing to untangle, which is also where like, even though I am such a big advocate of the self-healing movement, in people taking ownership of I am in this position, I am responsible for being in this position. And I’m also capable of working my way out of position in the majority of the work falls on me I can, I can work with functional medicine doc and health coach and, you know, conventional doc and as a psychologist to help me along that journey, but ultimately, it’s up to me, but this is where, right, like, you know, clients, patients, consumers, well, they’re not health professionals, and, you know, so it’s like, maybe you shouldn’t try to fix the faulty engine in your car if you don’t know how you should take it to a professional auto mechanic that can help you make sense of the problem or, you know, teach you how to fix it or whatever. So I don’t think people should be trying to do it on their own. Because, yeah, you know, the exercise that you lose to the circle life, or whatever I call it. That’s how I’ve always assessed progress in my clients is, you know, how do I know if what we’re doing is working? Well, two things one, I shouldn’t see your objective lab testing getting better. But number two, I should see your subjective perception of your symptoms, getting better your subjective perception of your quality of life getting better, and I like to track all of that data. And yeah, you know, you could see, like, yeah, maybe you know, about exposed to bug and you know, had an immune flare up or you’re working out hard or you went through a stressful period. There’s gonna be those things that might cause like a blip in your, you know, biomarkers. You could still have, you know, increased your level of satisfaction or fulfillment in all these areas of your life, like your financial health, or your interpersonal relationships, or whatnot. But time and time again, you do see, you know, pretty significant correlation with like, biomarkers are getting worse, and their perceived quality of life is getting worse, biomarkers are getting better their perceived quality life is getting better. But there can be those little discrepancies, which is why working with a trained professional that knows how to contextualize the data, I think that’s the single most important thing is you have to put the data into context. And non-health professionals just don’t have the education or skills to do that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I would even say, I mean, I agree 100%. But I think the most important thing is knowing what are those self-actualization circle points, right, because, again, we talked about this last time is a lot of people just know what they don’t want anymore, not so much what they do want. And that does have a physiological connection with the scrambling of that front part of the brain and not being able to make sequential planning and how to be able to think logically and rationally. And, what would it look like I remember I had a client where it’s so funny, she was one of my favorite clients. And she was looking down at her notes, and her glasses were on her nose, and she was like steam coming out of her ears. And I remember asking her like, like, look up for a second. And she would look up and I said, What would you be doing if you didn’t have all this stuff? Like going on? Like, and she’s like, what, thumbing through her notes? Like, like, like, looking at me, like, What do you mean, like, and I just kind of saw it hit her that epiphany of Yeah, like, we’ve kind of lost the sight of why, you know, what is it that we want out of this? And I think that’s so important because great to see those biomarkers move for sure, objectively because that does give us objective findings that this is improving and 100%, they’re correlated with these things. But if you’re not making those synapses and those neural connections, then what is it all for in the first place? Right. So when does your mental map test come available?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, no, it’s currently available for practitioners. And we’re doing a 12-hour seminar, two-day seminar in late October, that’s going to teach, you know, the ins and outs of every marker on the test. So that’s kind of the practitioner side, the consumer side of consumers being able to buy their beautiful custom, you know, functional report, we’re hoping to get it out by October 1. So right now, we’ve just been getting people on the waitlist, and you know, that list is growing, which is great. You know, there’s a lot of long-term things there, I’m thinking about, maybe turn it into an app or something, you know, to make it a very user-friendly experience, so that they can use the data to guide their journey. But you just really nailed hit the nail on the head with, you know, that’s the thoughts become proteins again, where, yeah, I think a lot of us, it’s like, we’re sick and tired of being sick and tired. And we’re sick and tired of our current circumstances. But to your point, you asked them, Well, what do you want, like if you weren’t, and that was one of my favorite things to do with new clients. They list out, you know, their top five health complaints. And it’s like, okay, so if you woke up tomorrow, and all of these health complaints were just gone? What would be different about your life? What would you do with your day if you weren’t plagued with these things? And if you can’t answer that, like, that’s your first action step is because then you create those synapses, like those thoughts of envisioning become proteins, it’s like, we might have mentioned it. But there was that study that took two cohorts of athletes. You know, one athlete group or one control group was exercising and going through this, you know, strength training regimen every day. And the other group didn’t exercise at all but was doing envisioning, they were imagining working out, they were imagining doing squats, and then they, you know, measured their quadricep growth and found that even the non-exercising groups still develop the bigger stronger muscles, just from that envisioning that’s a perfect example of thoughts become proteins in neuroplasticity. So you have to start envisioning the life that you do want to manifest that boat from a quantum and a very real physiological perspective.   Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure, yeah, I think that’s so important. And in terms of us from a scientific point of view, because some naysayers will say, Oh, that’s just woo-woo stuff, but it is not. It’s science stuff. So awesome. Interview again, as far as I guess it’s hard for me then what’s new in terms of any new things? Because last time, I always ask the guests on parting I said, hey, what would you tell the younger bright-eyed Brandon that you didn’t know then that you know now and you said, Well, he was a pretty cool kid, and so forth. And What would you What? What’s in what’s new information? Like? What’s the new newest aha that you’ve had that has kind of given you some new connecting tangles with other concepts that you already had recently?   Brendan Vermeire: was quite the question. You know, I think there’s a lot to be said for, you know, reconnecting with your authentic truth that’s gotten domesticated and covered up with years and years of false belief systems and narratives. And so over the past few years, year by year, I find I get closer and closer to my authentic childhood self. And, you know, I was reading this beautiful like, quote on Instagram the other day, that was, you know, saying how you go talk to a class of like kindergarteners are first graders, and they’re asking all these very profound questions like, Where do babies come from, and what’s beyond the universe, and, you know, all these just very powerful, deep, profound thoughts that their little minds are having. But then you go talk to a room of 12th graders and their eyes are glazed over, they don’t care, they don’t want to be there. And that goes to show something has gone very, very wrong in between kindergarten and 12th grade. And I read that the other day, I was like, you know, that’s pretty powerful and pretty true, because our authentic self, I think, is best represented in our, in our childhood, before we go through the trauma before we go through the domestication and conditioning, and get spit out this callous, non enthusiastic adult, we lose sight of who we are, and we lose sight of how amazing and beautiful reality is. We’ve been so conditioned to experience it this one way that we are like, it’s we have blinders on, and we don’t even know it. So this is where I think there’s so much power in reconnecting with that authentic inner child, because that’s who you are, like, what you were interested in is your nature and behavior as a kid? That’s who you are. So like, what happened in between then and now? And how can you get closer back to your, your state of authenticity? Because that’s where life is much more blissful?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great answer. It made me think, what cruel trick is that? No, like who you are at the very beginning, only to lose your path all along the way, as the years go by, but then I thought, well, the whole ying-yang theory is that you develop an evolution of, of wisdom, I think wisdom is good word wisdom, with that nice devotee of that purity. And you combine both of those. And that’s how we should be aging with the balance of the new things that we learn that enrich the authentic child and ourselves so that you have the best of both? So awesome. I don’t know if we should go part three, because then that way, I mean, part three in some other area is as opposed to taking on the big three because that’s never a good thing to do. But I am right there with you, you know?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, no. I think we did a good job of kind of touching on some big thing. It’s like keeping it focused on what can people do though, right now, I think everybody’s feeling very frustrated and powerless. But quite the opposite. Like, if you’re feeling powerless, that’s usually more so you’ve given up your power. And all you have to do is kind of take it back. And that’s kind of the battle in itself. That’s the good fight that we all need to be fighting. So yeah, I thought it was an amazing conversation. I hope your listeners get a lot from it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Maybe well, and you know, what I was gonna say is like I from time to time, slack on my exercising, and you just need one, one, breed exercising day to undo the bad days and start all over again, which is so great, because you can always start all over again. And there’s, it’s never too late to start all over again. And that’s the great thing about it. So awesome. I’m sure by now my listeners know where to get in contact with you. But it’s your big platform is Instagram at the holistic Savage. Correct. And they’ll be able to see that and then the tests are the people that you educate. Have they mostly been licensed health therapists or are they all kinds of therapists? Yeah.   Brendan Vermeire: Our practitioner group has gotten diverse. In the beginning, it was mostly unlicensed, like functional medicine coaches. But now at this point, it’s just all over. I have like psychotherapists in licensed psychotherapists and my functional mentorship and we’ve got that Catholic doctors and chiropractors and dietitians and MD is not as much I mean, a few here and there, but MDS are kind of the hardest. Sometimes all stubborn. So, you know, I would say it’s kind of 5050 of like unlicensed holistic functional coaches and practitioners and then another 50% of kind of a melting pot of different types of professionals. But I think that’s what makes functional and integrative medicine so cool is the diversity of skill sets in the industry. And just like you know, you look at systems biology, the more diverse an ecosystem is, the more stable and healthy it is. So I like to think that then as an industry as a professional type, you know, functional providers, we’re a more stable and healthy profession because of our diversity, so just a little theory of mine.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, it’s a good attitude to have I never understood the lack mentality, as you know, a rising tide lifts all boats I don’t get it like if I help you with information or we help each other. It takes away from me because you can’t outgive the universe I just don’t get. I mean, I guess that’s rooted in insecurity and they need to listen to our last couple of podcasts to figure out why they have that lack mentality. But anyways, my friend, I appreciate your time. And I look forward to seeing continued growth and progress and all the things that you do to contribute to making the world a better place. So thanks for everything that you do.   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, likewise, my friend such a pleasure.   The post Dopamine Fasting and Adrenal Fatigue appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

        Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that we can get their health back quickly. And today we are joined with a patient and a team member, Kristin and goanna and we’re going to do a little bit different today, Kristin is going to ask me a couple of questions about how I got into this or some of the things that we do to help people. But then we’re going to go through a timeline history of some of her experiences with her health challenges and raise awareness for people that may not identify that stress and overwhelm. And the impact that has on your stress response system can manifest in different ways. So, Kristen, thanks so much for being here today. Yeah, for sure. So why don’t we do this ladies first, You said you wanted to ask me a couple of questions. So why don’t you go ahead and ask me some questions, and then we’ll transition into getting to know a little bit about.   Kristin Angona: your journey. Yeah, so um, one of the reasons I wanted to do this video, too, was because I wanted to be able to show my friends and family like about you, and how you’ve helped me and everything. So do you mind kind of briefly explaining how you got into this practice and how you stumbled across your breakthrough?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I was an anxious kid. And I probably didn’t have the best diet in terms of sugary foods. And I didn’t realize that I had anxiety. I mean, it was a thing where I would get nervous before a competition or in-class being called upon or even just having to read out loud. And then when I went through chiropractic college, I had gone through that because I hurt my back. And when I graduated and was ready to practice, and had over $250,000 worth of student loans, and my wife was pregnant with twins, I was exhausted and burnt out and anxious and had brain fog, couldn’t focus. And I heard about this thing called adrenal fatigue, which Chris and I never heard of before. And I thought I was pretty educated. I had a psychology degree, Exercise Physiology degree. And I had just graduated from chiropractic college, and I never heard of this thing called adrenal fatigue. And it was kind of like the Epiphany, like, Oh, my gosh, like, this is me to a tee, like, you know, when someone describes you to a tee that you could probably describe, not as good as that was, it captivates you, and like, okay, I want to hear what this has to say. And then I went down that rabbit hole of doctors don’t accept it as a legitimate diagnosis. A lot of the time your blood tests come back normal there, there are so many different presentations like you could be lacking energy crashing in the middle of the day, you’re energized in the night and not in the morning. You can’t focus you can’t concentrate, it impacts your motivation and drive and brain fog. So there are so many things that, that it impacts and I was just sort of overwhelmed with, oh my gosh, if I don’t know about this, and I’ve studied a lot of stuff in health, then and this is more of a stress-related thing like we’re more stress than ever, and we have so many demands and to-do lists than ever, then this is an epidemic that needs to be explained and told the truth about so that’s kind of how it all started for me. And now it’s, we help people like yourself, where they may not have identified it as being a stress-related thing. But when we tell the truth about adrenal fatigue, it goes so much deeper than just the adrenals. Right? So as you know.   Kristin Angona: no, that’s, that’s interesting reminds me a couple of years ago, I had heard of adrenal fatigue, and I sent it to a friend of mine. And I was like, Look, I feel like I have some of these things on this. But then I saw it say like, now, it’s not a real thing. And this and that it or, you know, you only have one of the things and not all of them. So like Had I known or continued researching like you then maybe I could have avoided my major crash of a situation.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, right. Well, you know, I look at it as you have these things that your obstacles in life for a reason, right? So had you not crashed? Perhaps you wouldn’t have been where you are now. Right? So at the same time.   Kristin Angona: Yeah. Well, that’s quite so could you maybe share on your a couple of stories, you know, one person that you’ve helped, and then we can get into how you’ve helped me?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. So one of our best success stories was from a client that we worked with within Australia, and I even remember having the initial call with her. And it was amazing how she had suffered for so long. She’d been to like really high tech, Ph.D. The Best of the Best of traditional doctors and not to say that they don’t know what they’re talking about, because they certainly do. But if she’s still suffering after all the strategies, then something’s being missed. So I remember she just told me she had been training quite hard with triathlons. And she was going up a mountain on her bike. And then all of a sudden, it’s just like the, in the matrix, the plug got unplugged. And, you know, the person just kind of died from there. And that’s what she said. And after that, like she just was like, out of her body, she had the dysautonomia or just the, she wasn’t in touch with her body, and she couldn’t go in cars and go about roundabouts. And she couldn’t stabilize her blood glucose. So we had her understand the importance of what’s called metabolic flexibility, where we should be able to burn protein, carbs, and fats as fuel. We’ve been engineered for that. We’ve never had 24 hour online deliveries and refrigerators and abundance, and lightbulbs and everything else in between. And so we’re not engineered in our modern-day society along with stress and overtraining and genetic susceptibilities, and chemical toxins and news and everything else, to be able to become metabolically flexible, we lose the ability. So one of the biggest things we did was having her stabilize her glucose reduce inflammation, she started to realize when she was hungry versus having to eat because you’ve been conditioned, you have a breakfast, you have lunch, you have dinner, right? Like you. Yeah, and, and it was profound. I mean, she lost a lot of weight. And that wasn’t even one of the goals that we were looking to do. And I think once you get the body working effectively, metabolically, the side effect, as opposed to drugs, where you leave the room on a commercial and you come back, and they’re still finishing all the side effects, you know, to not, you know, if this, that and the other, the side effect of getting healthy is metabolic health and losing weight. So a couple of other strategies as you need to do a proper hormone test to figure out how hormones are clearing out, and where to focus on to strategically not just throw crap at the wall and see what sticks. And that was quite profound. She had such amazing experiences and got her life back. And it wasn’t anything magical. It was just more of an acceptance that it’s a legitimate health challenge. There are different continuums of it. And that it’s not just the HPA axis, the brain signaling to your adrenals that something’s wrong with you. It’s also the fact that your body’s just not using energy and making energy effectively. And some embers in the fires aren’t being extinguished in her body metabolically, and the body will take care of the rest. So that’s that was one of the best, I’d say experiences we’ve had with turning someone’s life around. You know, it’s been quite amazing.   Kristin Angona: No, that’s cool. Well, I can tell you, my life turned around completely. Especially because tomorrow is one year from when I went to the ER with the situation, the person and I had never been to the ER before at all. So you know, it took a lot, or like, I had to be feeling like really bad to have to go there during the night.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I have it on my notes here that our first encounter was on 10. One 2020. So yeah, we had a little bit of time, but I’m looking at my notes. And you had the diagnosis, I believe in six in six in June of 20. Is that correct? Or before that or?   Kristin Angona: not? So June was when I first had one, the first time I ever saw blood in my stool. So it was in June. And then it was kind of on and off. Like where I was still living my normal life feeling normal. It would come and go. And you know, people just say oh, it’s stress, or Oh, it must be hemorrhoid or something like oh, that happens. Don’t worry. Then I was like No, something doesn’t feel right. Something doesn’t feel right. And then September it just, you know, my cup overflowed and it was not it just every that’s all it was and it was it almost felt like a virus-like took over and I just couldn’t stop going with   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s got to be super. I don’t even know if the good word is alarming. Right? I mean, to not feel well, but no Kristin Angona: control of my body at all. Like it was just not me anymore. Yeah.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, it’s uh, you know, it’s, it’s this is not funny, but I remember I was playing soccer one time and I went to slide to get the ball from the dinette and one of the metal pins was a down and I slid it To the end my knee like totally opened up. The reason I bring that up is that it wasn’t as painful. It was, but it was way more painful. As soon as I saw it, like, Oh my god, like I was gonna fail. And I would imagine like, it’s enough when you don’t feel great as it is. But to have a visual clue of blood, I mean, we’re talking out loud, like, you know, blood in the stool. It’s like, oh my god like that, like, Am I gonna die? Like, is there something going on in my body? Like, that’s, it’s Yeah, so, so Okay, so, yeah. So what was it then that made it for you? Like, I mean, you had never gone to the hospital, you knew something was seriously wrong. What was it about you that said, Okay, I’m not gonna go the traditional approach?   Kristin Angona: Well, I did go to two different gastroenterologists. And they just kept saying, like, you know, I did different stool tests to see if it was a parasite or a bacteria. Everything came back negative, the ER also did the test too. But before I even get to the ER, I did, I saw two different gastroenterologists, they, they just said, like, Oh, we need to have you do a colonoscopy, but place based on your bloodwork and the stool tests that came back, it looks like it’s ulcerative colitis, like based on whatever they came to you. But they said We can’t give you medication. So we do a colonoscopy. And, of course, I had a lot of family members, you know, support me in my decision not to get a colonoscopy. And then I had a lot of them that are very critical saying that, like, how could you, not do that, but I just knew deep down in my gut that Luckily, my intuition was still somewhat functioning on that that was not a good idea. And I just they gave me Mazon mean, which is just an anti-inflammatory, non, not a steroid. They said they could start with that, but that ultimately, I might have to go on prednisone or something to stop it. And it just one day, like it dawned on me. Now, I was thinking, why, if there’s inflammation, like, you know, like, when you have a fever, your body heats up, it gets inflamed, so that it fights off whatever this is so like, why Oh, and as soon as the gastro found out that ulcerative colitis runs in my family, they just come in, I’m like? Oh, yeah, that’s it that they took instantly. And I was like, Well, no, there’s something there, my body’s inflamed for a reason. And if I suppress the inflammation with these anti-inflammatories, then I just feel like it’s gonna pop up somewhere else. And it was popping up other places I was starting to get the visual ocular migraines road see little flashes of light, like multiple times a day, so I was terrified to drive and then I started, probably because they told me to stop eating raw fiber. Um, so I was just eating like rice and bone broth, because Oh, they said, like, stop the gluten and everything which I’ve eaten pasta, like, all my life. So now I’m just eating rice, and bone broth, and like bananas. So I was getting very dizzy. Like, I’d never fainted before in my life. And there were five times from September to October that I got so dizzy, I just fell to the floor. But I think my adrenaline kicked in enough for me to not faint, but I think most people probably would have. But everything was spinning. So like something’s going on here, I’m not going to continue being on the same. Like, they just want to make my stickers, how I felt, especially when in the ER, they didn’t do anything to help me like get an IV bag and I had someone come to the house to give me an IV bag. And that helped me more than everything that the ER did Besides, you know, they did the CT scan, which showed me there was no blockage. So that was good. But I also had done enough research that I saw, even if there is a blockage, your body can heal that if you give it the tools to do so. I’m just like I saw, I watched a video that is back in the day. If you swallowed a thorn, your stomach would move fat over your intestines to heal that spot. So I was like there has to be a way to heal naturally. I don’t need all this intervention. And I just knew that if I went on medication, it would just cover it up and not fix the problem. So searching found you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Here we are. Yeah, I mean, you point to a couple of important points. I feel that the traditional approach needs to be done from the beginning. I agree like you know, going there and making sure that your red flags are crossed off the list, right? If there’s any immediate I guess, lack of a better description, bleeding neck problems that need to be taken care of right away. But then when there’s just diagnosis of exclusion, well, it’s not this. It’s not this, it must be that. And the management approach is an acute-based approach for a chronic-based problem. And I think that’s really where you’re seeing some major trends in the way healthcare is headed is, is that there should be the medical book, point 2.0, where it goes into chronic environmental challenges that aren’t approached the same way. The acute-based stuff is approaching. So, you know, and kudos to you for going outside of that, and not waiting for how long it takes for the boat in the ocean to change its course. Right? Because at the end of the day, you’re, you’re young, and you want to enjoy your life. So, so the other thing is I saw here too, is that you ultimately, so you found me, the only thing I was gonna add was that you had stopped and looked at our notes, and you had stopped the kombucha. And you hadn’t been Yeah, you hadn’t? I mean, I guess by choice. You didn’t eat red meat or pork since you were 14 years old? Correct?   Kristin Angona: Yeah.  I just didn’t earlier for like, steak or pork. But um, I mean, I love animals and all but I knew I still need some nutrition. So I like chicken and shellfish. Really. Um, but yeah, that can buka um, that was something that I had been drinking, you know, dilute, I would dilute it a bit. I was drinking it on and off since like, I don’t know, March or Bay, one of those months last year. And then, um, I think it was just amplifying whatever was already wrong in my intestines. And then, um, after two nights before I got sick. I drank like an undiluted. I don’t know, a glass of the kombucha. And I started pinpointing it. And then you’re the one that taught me that’s very high in histamines. So that was probably contributing to it. Plus, it could have been a bad batch. I don’t know. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, I think I mean, I brought that up because one of the AHAs that I had in studying all of this is that the environment triggers our mast cells, mast cells stimulate your HPA axis, which impacts the adrenals. But mast cells make histamine. And if there was, we’ll get into what we looked at, because I was quite surprised to find out that gluten in and of itself wasn’t the main thing for you. I mean, it was a concern, it’s always been a concern in terms of it can produce more histamine, it can cause your immune system to go haywire. And it can also cause because glyphosate and round up and pesticides and sprays. But as far as smoking guns, when we did the genetic testing, we didn’t see that as being a major challenge, which is good, but the histamine was already overflowing. And kombucha was, was causing that to do that. So one of the very first things we did was the GI map test. And I knew you were very diligent with your, hence the team member you with your graphs and like, you know, having like your one, two, you know, all the things going on. But do you remember Kristin, what one of the main findings was on the first page when we had your first?   Kristin Angona: c diff? Which, oh, I guess, backtrack a little bit that I the ER and then prescribe me antibiotics, you know, to take so I took the Cipro? flagyl and something with an app? Um, I don’t remember what it was. But, um, yeah, I took that. And so when I saw that C diff on the stool test that I did with you, I was instantly like, Oh, that must have been because of the antibiotics. And then now looking back at that, that was naive though because that means I had to have already had the C Deaf inside of my body for the antibiotics to let it get out of control. So yeah, that was eye-opening, as well, it was,   Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean, listen, you know, we say like positive is positive, or pregnant or not pregnant. But if it were pregnant, it would be like 10 months pregnant with the how high levels it was, because it was like to the exponent seven, and we want to see it below the exponent three. And so so that’s quite high. The two things I would say is that, unfortunately, whether it’s I think it’s lab core quest, they just do not inundate themselves with PCR testing, which means they’re not looking at the DNA sample. And it’s like, that’s the equivalent of saying, okay, the the the police department and put out whatever, Iowa whatever, decides that they don’t want to run the crime scenes for DNA. They think that that technology is too advance to try to convict the murderer or the crime scene with, you know, why would we do that? I mean, that’s what the analogy is, is like, you know, well, you came back falsely negative with your test that you did over here, but now you’re quite positive over here. And then there were a couple of other markers on the, on the second page, if you read Remember, are the last page. I mean, there was some dysbiosis as well. But yeah, do you remember? Like, what were some of the findings that you saw on the last page with your immune system that they had on there?   Kristin Angona: Oh, yeah, my immune system was like a super overdrive, and then right. A lot of Colt level was very high. Okay,   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, exactly. Yeah. I mean, you’re bad. Yeah, no, yeah. Well, yeah, you had, I believe you had some strep and some bacillus, a little bit of Candida. And when we say when we see multiple species, I think it’s important for the listener to know they say, Well, I have Cebo, like small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. First and foremost, when you do a stool sample, it’s a culture of the lower intestine. So you can’t say it’s the small intestine, it’s the lower intestine. But what tends to be in the lower intestine could migrate to the small intestine. And at the end of the day, it’s kind of selfish to say it’s CBOE because CBOE implies that it’s only bacteria. I think CMO is a better word because it means small intestinal microbial overgrowth other things. So there was some Candida that wasn’t positive but wasn’t negative. Then there were some other concerns with other bacterias. And then your secretary IGA, as you said, was super high. And your calprotectin was super high, and oh, Cold Blood was there. So to me, that’s an explanation of something’s new here, like very new here. Right. So. So what did we do from there to address that, like, from your, from your point of view?   Kristin Angona: Um, well, you gave, you helped me figure out how to take on the GI synergy, which I call the natural antibiotics because I thought, you know, in it, right, that the repair site to help repair the gut. So I just remembered it was like the five Rs. I don’t remember what they all are, but like remove replace, Rhian Doc, I don’t remember the rest.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Restore your store secretions? And then I think to remove, right.   Kristin Angona: So I’m just rebuilding my whole gut lining, like remove the bad and replaced and heal it and replace it with good, so right. I remember that being a very long process, but I knew that what had to be done to, you know, heal long term for that. So. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So So then I know we did a, we did a couple of things because I know that the natural antibiotics, I think is a great term. And it doesn’t just have to be gi synergy. There’s other you know, some people that are overstimulated with their mast cells, they can’t tolerate a tonic like that. Because there are too many things. So I think it spoke to your constitution in that you didn’t like given that the acute nature of this, it wasn’t building on your age, it’s not building up for decades, right? where a lot of the times people’s immune system that Secretary IGA is very, very low, even though they have like, something that’s there in like the Border Patrol, you know, your border patrol was all hands on deck, you know, we got some, so so but then we ended up I know, we talked about this the other day where we were having you kill Monday through Friday, and follow it up with some charcoal or binders so that that can help remove the toxins as well give your liver a little extra support. And then we were also talking about giving it some nutrients for repairing on the weekends. I still like remember, hey, like, when we had our follow up, Can I repair on the weekdays as well? And for sure. I think that kind of suit was it was a tough process going through all of like you said was a long process, was it? Was it hard for you to do did it?   Kristin Angona: It was a little hard because I didn’t see results right away. But I knew deep down that like, you know, when you’re killing bad things, they will produce like some die off. So it can get a little bit worse before it gets better. So I knew that but my anxiety didn’t agree with that always. And so it’s still panic me. But I just remember thinking like, I felt like the repair on the weekends wasn’t enough. And that if I could take it at night when I wasn’t eating, maybe give it a chance to help repair overnight while it was sleeping. So I remember I emailed you and you’re like, yeah, we could try. Right, right. Yeah, so that was the repair by, and then I remember one of the most eye-opening things. Were you saying that we needed to do the DNA tests for me to see, you know what my genetic susceptibilities were at? First, I didn’t know what that meant, because I was like, Yeah, I know that this runs in my family, but at the same time, um, I don’t think that this is something that was building for years, although now looking back like now that I feel so much better. There were so many signs that my cup was filling. Right? It did just overflow. So it. So yeah, the DNA test then became very helpful to see about histamines. And I guess that’s how your body.   Dr. Joel Rosen Uses how it uses nutrients at the end of the day, like, you know, like so. So that’s an important segue because when we did the follow-up gi map, we weren’t out I think we weren’t completely, the fire hadn’t been completely extinguished, I think there was still smoldering and still some areas of the forest that were burning, I looked at the markers, and they went down from point seven, or exponent seven to exponent four, which was encouraging, it needs to be below exponent three. But your Secretory IgA was lower your calprotectin was lower your occult blood was lower. The was, let me ask you about this because I know this is concerning for people. There were some more markers, though, on your dysbiosis or the other bacterias that weren’t there on the first go around. And even there were changes on the third test, too. How did I guess? First and foremost, were you seeing subjective, like how you feel, and what toilet showed you improvements, versus if you didn’t even see the results of the GI map test.   Kristin Angona: So actually, I remember saying that to you as well that I was feeling so much better. And then I saw the test. And it almost instantly triggered me to like, feel like I was going to the bathroom more frequently again. So, the first stool test we did was like October 3 or something. And then, um, I did we are the GI map. And then the second one was in February, I believe. And that one was the one that showed my flood of Colt went from 64 to four. And so that was a really big improvement. And then the calprotectin went from 3000 to like the one I think Exactly. Um, so I was like, okay, the inflammation is almost gone. But then seeing all the other bacteria and the C. diff still there instantly made me feel like I had to, or that I was going to the bathroom more frequently again. So it got in my head and I became aware of that. And then the third test, I think was in may finally show that the C diff was completely gone. Zero blood and no inflammation. So, um, that was good, but I think I did panic again with the.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I guess some of the other. Years. That went high. Yeah. Which is a marker of the leaky gut, right.   Kristin Angona: Yeah. Which then it kind of I know you’ve explained to me it’s kind of like layers of an onion. So the first couple tests may have just shown, you know, one layer but as we peel back that I think you said biofilms it can expose more so.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a good point. And you know, what do you remember also to like taking a stroll down memory lane to the antimicrobial, all the microbes, but there was something that was concerning on the first page that wasn’t there for the first time. Do you know what that you remember? what that was? a parasite? Yeah, yeah, he had Giardia come in there. So you make a really good point like people need to understand that is that when the microbes coalesce and it’s like I make an analogy like you have a party at your house, your people from work, they hang out in the kitchen, your neighbors probably are in the backyard, and then maybe your family members and someone else like someone like from your high school or whatever is in in the family room, and they’re all in their little bunches, but eventually, they kind of as the night goes on, they kind of get in and intermingle. That’s what a biofilm is. And really, it’s like a matrix in the body again, where it’s like, Okay, how can we reinforce ourselves. And so they have a mucus-like sludgy biofilm, which is an oil terminal, that oil creates these biofilms that, that adhere to the pipes and stuff and make it much harder to get rid of it. And then on top of that, it reinforces itself with heavy metals and so forth and so on. So when you’re doing a protocol to kill and lice, those, if it’s not strong enough, it doesn’t get everything. If you don’t have potential key leaders to help break that metals down. It doesn’t work. But it can also then show you, Hey, your test is maybe if you don’t take it in perspective of how you’re feeling so much better. And you just look at it objectively, you might think that the test is getting worse, right? You might get that ascent. So how did you Jose, how did you lock it up? Like how did you rein it in and say okay, like, I know that the test is showing me some improvements because it went from so high to solo here, but this went high? And that even physically caused me to feel, you know, an urgency. But at the same time, how did you balance that with? Okay, like I’m trending in the right direction because a lot of people won’t keep it together.   Kristin Angona: Well, I like so okay, when I first started taking the natural antibiotics within October, and then you had me take digestive enzymes and also the enzyme to remove histamines do right. So that and then adding in a fiber back into my diet, like actually eating real foods again. So I write because I started um, nice. So December was the last time that I got dizzy and the last time that I had flashes in my eyes, so I think that kept it in perspective for me, right? with the others like no, I am improving like, oh, and I could base them I was able to go longer without having to eat so many vegetables.   Dr. Joel Rosen: My blood to know I mean.   Kristin Angona: oh, yeah. So I was still seeing blood in my stool through January, but like December around Christmas time, it significantly cut down because around Christmas time was the first time that I felt good enough to go out to eat went to a Louis Boston Italian restaurant because they had everything like freshly made. So I felt comfortable enough to go there. Um, so when we are around Christmas time, I saw a significant reduction in blood and it was more like formed stools not so often. So I was. So I just had to reel it back in and think like, No, I’ve made huge improvements. And one of the things that I know now was a huge sign was that this was all leading up with that I was getting extremely bloated at night, like so if I ate dinner at like six or so at midnight, I would be like lying awake, like feeling I had to sit up because my stomach felt just so full. I never associated that as I don’t want anything being rushed, like people are just like, Oh, yeah, that happens. That happens. Like, um, and so just knowing that that wasn’t happening anymore, and I wasn’t having those other symptoms, and I wasn’t getting shaky between eating and Oh, the other thing that was happening too, after I ate when I was sick was that my heart rate would feel like super strong, like, I could feel it everywhere. And that doesn’t happen anymore. So I’m like, I’m improving, and I can’t let the one like my body down can start to heal on its own without, like, I’ve given it the tools and I just had to reel it back in to know that I’m…   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. good points there and, but I do feel like it needs to be elaborated on where you saw that test. And then you saw a felt of an urgency. And I guess we have to harness the energy that we control it getting out of control with the button, the balancing it with how good that the other things are? Was there anything conscientiously that you feel you learn from that, like being able to just ramp down your response? Like, what was the?   Kristin Angona: matter? Just really, um, I guess just keeping the faith, like trusting my intuition, knowing that I’ve been on the right path, don’t and I think you pointed it out to me too, like, look how obvious like, as soon as you saw the test, then this started happening. And so, um, that’s how much stress can play a role on your, like, take a toll on your healing and, um, need to control the stress.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Response for sure. And, you know, I remember that as you bring it up, I was like, like, it’s kind of, as you mentioned to me, okay, they had me stopped taking fiber when they thought I had UC, and I had to go with very little food whatsoever. And I think maybe short-term, I could see that because you want you don’t want to irritate the lining with any potential. I guess irritants, if you will, or allergens or triggers. But a couple of things is that need to be followed up with, okay, and by the way, this is a short-term recommendation, because, you know, we need to make sure your diversity is big. So I remember bringing diversity into your, your mindset, like Hey, you got to get to bring some diversity here. Like that’s not enough foods there that because that’s how your microbiome is made. And you know, the other thing I kind of let pass, which I think is you’re very fortunate that it didn’t happen, but when someone takes Cipro that’s a major Crusher. I’ve had unfortunately like our old office manager whose wife is still very sick, who took Cipro and you can go online and Google-like Cipro toxicity or fluoroquinolones injuries because ultimately, antibiotics kill bacteria. And our mitochondria are bacteria. And ultimately, you’re dropping an atom bomb in the middle of a microbial storm, and you’re just hoping that Okay, good guys don’t die, just kill bad guys, you know, and it doesn’t work out that way. So you’re fortunate in that way? For sure. The other I’ve been the other outlier, which you just remind me of was, you know, with your glucose and stabilizing that, and not eating so much. So, tell us to tell us sort of what kind of routine now you’ve settled in on to kind of maintain the balance now.   Kristin Angona: Oh, um, so for me, I was eating like, I mean, everyone at work, like when I worked in person and retail, they would always laugh at me how frequently I’d be eating, especially because I’m small person, like, are you eating so frequent, but I get shaky between, I would get shaky between meals, so I always eat lunch, like, right at 12. And then I’d have my snack at like, three, and then I would go home and eat my dinner at six, like, basically, every three hours I was eating, but now I can, I really, I eat my breakfast, like I don’t have to eat as soon as I wake up, which is great, I do wake up starving, but I don’t feel like I’m gonna fall over if I don’t eat. Whereas before it felt like I had to eat right away, or I couldn’t think or function now I can just, you know, start doing whatever, eat casually like an hour or two after I wake up, and then I can. So I’ll probably, I don’t know, somewhere around like, nine-ish. And then, um, I can eat my lunch now like one or two, which is a huge well, or just based on whatever I can get away from work to go cook it. Um, and so that’s just a big difference, right there. And then sometimes I’ll have like a little snack around like four, but probably just because I’m like, working and thinking. And then I can eat my dinner like that. Seven, which is such a big difference for me. Um, I would always be the one to like, eat before you went out to dinner because I didn’t want to be starving and sitting there. And now I feel like I have a little bit more leeway. It’s more an anxiety thing for me now. Like I remember you saying to figure out my actual physical blood sugar versus my psychological blood sugar. Right? Right. Yes. So that was a big eye-opening thing for me too. But just like seeing how it was all connected, I wasn’t crazy. And all those things were happening because something was going wrong. So I think genetically, you saw that I have trouble removing histamines and regulating my iron. So I think those Yeah, was it? Yeah.   Dr. Joel Rosen: For sure. I mean, there are a couple of other things here too, which we’ll get into as we talk about it, but you make a couple of really good points is the difference between physic physical hunger and psychological hunger? And, and sometimes so many people tell me this is like, oh, if I don’t need it, I’m gonna, gonna faint, you know, and I’m gonna die. And I don’t believe that. I mean, in your case, it was very low. I mean, there’s no doubt about that. But for some people, if their glucose isn’t low, they’re insulin resistant, and it’s not getting into the cells. So I think it’s important to calibrate that and understand that we do tools with that. But I guess the question is, is that now you would never have found me, if if I had only presented in my local business area, that we only help people that have adrenal fatigue problems. In our local area, we had a bunch of conditions like functional medicine, like we have gi issues, and thyroid issues and hormone issues and brain fog issues, and so forth. So but now that you understand the role of stress in the body, especially when your mind can go play tricks on you, and you can physiologically have, you know, an urgency to go more and start to oh my gosh, like things are getting worse again. And so what would you tell the listener that may have gi issues that were some real aha is for you to know that it goes deeper than the GI and it’s kind of a chicken or the egg thing in terms of its kind of a two-way road? It’s not even a two-way road? It’s a five-way road with so many other things going on? What would you What have you learned and what would you tell other people about that, um.   Kristin Angona: That there’s like, you’re not just an unlucky person that your issue happens to there’s a reason for it and you have to find the root cause of the reason and a lot Yes, while it can be genetic, like yeah, maybe because I have an issue moving histamines or whatever. my intestines are more genetically susceptible or something to having the inflammation go there. Whereas someone else it might be, you know, arthritis or some, some, you know, thyroid or something but, um, You have to find out your genetic susceptibilities to see what you’re, you know, to see what genes can get turned on to see, you know, now that I think about the histamine issue, that was the other thing like when we determined that I had a histamine issue, and that can create your gut lining to be permeable. I guess that is right. Yeah. So because I genetically am susceptible to not removing histamines, my whole gut lining became permeable, which made me susceptible to the other issues. But also, I didn’t realize that I had a histamine issue because I’m, you know, yes, I would sneeze more often, or whatever. But I didn’t. I wasn’t one of those people allergic to everything. So you would never think that you have too many histamines, but then also, my face doesn’t turn red as much anymore. That was another thing too, that I should have known or being able to be like, really hot, I got zero, like heat tolerance, I would have to go inside. So little things like that. Were all signs that something was going wrong. So I would tell the listener to look at all those other signs and that, yes, well, those are common, that doesn’t mean that it’s normal. And you can find the root cause for it before it explodes into some sort of big digestive issue or other autoimmune.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, those are great points. The first point, I would say, which people get in this vicious cycle of never fixing it, Kristin is a, they have this biosis, they do a cleanse, they repair the gut lining, only to find out that they have leaky gut again, and they have food sensitivities, so they remove foods, and then they have lower health of diverse bacteria. And then they never get upstream enough to impact the histamine, which is causing a leaky gut. So it’s just you were able to get upstream from that and see all of the connections there. And address it, that would be the first thing. The other thing too is that from the genetic standpoint, you make a good point where some people when they’re oxidizing, or when they’re not able to make enough energy, it impacts their neurotransmitters, so they get more concerned or they get more anxious or panicky. And at the end of the day to like when you’re repopulating your healthy flora, your neurotransmitters are all produced in there as well. Right? So, you know, it’s quite amazing that you know, you’re able to learn all of this, too. So I guess the other thing that we always bring up is, well, you know, it’s expensive, and my insurance should pay for this. And I’m only going to do the things that insurance pays for, I guess, what was it in the motivation that made you feel like okay, like, I can’t go down that road? Or what was it in your line of thinking that, like, the cost-benefit ratio, was it you know, to do something different?   Kristin Angona: I mean, that’s so easy for me. Like, I can’t say that I had all the money upfront to pay for it, I did it. But I found a way. Like, I used some of my HSA, I put some on credit cards, I paid for some out of pocket, sorry, my dog is walking, but, um, but I, in my mind, and I had a friend, um, my friend, Amanda, the nurse practitioner, she said to me, she’s like, when you’re sick, like, stop worrying about money, like, do what you have to do to get better. And I just, I thought about it, and I was like, if I don’t have my life, then I don’t, what’s the point of having money, so just spend what I have to feel better so that I can have my life again, like, um, and I always tell people now, like, if you could pay, I don’t know, whatever amount it is, like. I mean, there’s to me, there’s no limit, not that I want to be ripped off or something. But I don’t think that I was right there no amount that I wouldn’t have figured out a way whether, you know, you have to sell your cars, I don’t think is what’s the point of having a car if you can’t drive it. Right. My life was completely turned upside down. I couldn’t. I mean, I worked from home and I couldn’t even work at home because I couldn’t, you know, sit at the computer long enough without having to go to the bathroom or, you know, I was falling over. I couldn’t go out to eat, I couldn’t go, you know, do whatever the things that I like to do. So like, if I can’t do that, what’s the point of having?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, it’s amazing. Some people don’t have those Wake Up Calls. I mean, sadly, I had a call with someone the other day who has major brain issues, like they can’t speak properly, they don’t have balance. The doctors are telling them that nothing’s wrong. And I told the person like Look, I don’t have a magic wand and I’m not gonna guarantee you that we’re going to fix this but I feel like I’m your best option here like, like you’re dying Like what? And they didn’t they didn’t take it. You know, the next step. And I guess if you look at it like people are hardwired different and you No, I think like, okay, what’s the purpose? Like if I can’t work and earn an income? what’s the purpose of me having money when I die? It doesn’t make sense.   Kristin Angona: Well, I think of it, like if you’re, if some, you know, if someone, the only way to get to work is their car and their car engine crash or their car gets totaled or whatever they’re gonna do whatever they can to find a way to get a new car so that they can get to work. So I was thinking in terms of, you know, like, I needed to pay whatever I needed to to get myself better because otherwise, there’s no point in having those things. Um, but also, then I saw my er two er bills was more than what I paid just to see you, right. I do think I had to still go to the ER, because that was like a, you know, learning opportunity for me to know that I was strong enough to go there on my own overcome, like, you know, a fear with that. But still, that was so expensive that had I, maybe, if someone told me like, hey, all these symptoms that you’re having are leading up to something bigger, you can see, you know, Dr. Joel, and, you know, you avoid a $15,000 er, Bill, then, you know, that would have been more enticing, but I didn’t, I had to go this way. Right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: There are lots of lessons there. I mean, I think, you know, like, I and I, one of the things we teach is like, like things happen for our best purpose, right? Like, when you look at blood in the stool, there’s nothing good about that. But I think it’s enough of smelling salt. Like when you’re knocked unconscious to say, like, Holy moly, like, I got like, this is my life here. Like this is not messing around here. Like, I’ll just give you a quick little example. Like, when I went to college in the states graduate program and chiropractic. As I said, I was in debt over $250,000, the Canadian dollar was 67 cents to the American dollar. And we didn’t have money, we put like, we got loans. And from the US government, you had to show like what your house was worth so that you had a net worth to be able to get your student visa, blah, blah, blah. And I will never forget my I wouldn’t there are times to Kristen, where I couldn’t sleep, like, I didn’t have the home the money like guaranteed for the whole year. So when I came to the States, I knew I had to find new lending and to be able to get you to know, more like that third-trimester pay for it. Right? So I wasn’t sleeping, I was stressed out. And the best man of my wedding, he says to me, like, what are you doing? Like, what happens if you don’t like to get the money? And I was like, Well, I’m stressed for sure. But it was never an option to not get it. Like that wasn’t an option. I sailed across the ocean, and I burnt the boat, the ships, you know, like, Cortez, I didn’t think about like, Okay, what happens if I need those boats to get back? It wasn’t an option. Right. And I think that’s probably the difference between when we say people that get their health back, are resourceful. is there’s no option? I mean, you were resourceful for that whole purpose is up. Does that make sense?   Kristin Angona: Yeah. And I mean, I guess that’s one thing throughout my whole life, like when I set my mind to something, I will find a way, right? I guess that trait carried over. But really, I asked people now like, you know, how much like if you had to pay a certain amount of money to be to find the answers to know like, what your individual body needs? Like, why wouldn’t you do that? And when people sit down and think about it, they’re like, you’re right. Like, why would I do that? Because it can help you? Like the DNA test alone? I feel like it’s so valuable because it can, it helps you learn about your specific body and what you need. I mean, you know, I’ve had like everyone in my family, do it now. Just because why wouldn’t you want to know to set yourself up for long-term success, and so many of these people in my family didn’t realize that they’re tired or whatever, because of genetic susceptibilities? Or also histamine issues. So, yeah, right. That’s just my thought process. Well, you know,   Dr. Joel Rosen: I think, I think and it’s not a commercial for us. I mean, I think the more important point is, is that if someone’s listening to this and has a major health challenge, on top of that, a major fear of not getting resourceful, that’s not serving you. Like you’ve got to get over that bridge of fear and say, okay, like, it’s worth it. It’s worth it to me, I bet. Maybe you’re you haven’t been hired hardwired, like, I think that is a hardwired trait where if I’m gonna find an option, I’m gonna, I’m not gonna, like get thrown into the ocean. I’m not gonna let myself drown. Yeah, and I think a lot of people have don’t have that until they’re in the ocean and they have to swim. Right? And I think more so than anything. The important point of what we’re saying is, is that if you’re suffering from a health challenge, and you are looking for answers, they’re out there. And don’t let the excuse of there it’s not out there be the limiting factor versus getting resourceful and, and figuring out how to do it, whether it’s with us or someone else because there is helping out there. I think that’s the hope that we’re providing to people. So, yeah, I mean, as far as any last words, I always ask when I do these interviews with people, I always ask, Hey, like, what would the wiser, Kristin, tell the younger, naive, Kristen that she didn’t know then that she knows now that we’re only talking a year, right? So, but like, Are there any, like new words of wisdom, you would tell yourself that you didn’t have before?   Kristin Angona: The first thing that comes to mind is like, you were right, like I was right, all along, to follow my intuition, and don’t get sucked down the rabbit hole of other people’s opinions. And I mean, like, I could have very easily I could very easily just be on the what and mesalamine, Hubbard said anti-inflammatory right now forever, or steroids forever. And, you know, that would impact my whole future, you know, and I just, I’m just glad that I listened to myself and didn’t and because even my family started to doubt me at one point, they’re like, maybe you should just do the colonoscopy, you know, get it. And I was like, No, there’s no, like, I know that. I already know there are no blockages. So based on that, like, I need to figure out what’s the root cause of this, and not just be put on steroids further, because I haven’t asked the doctor like, okay, so if you do confirm it, it’s this, what do you do? And they said, Oh, I think IV steroids and then like a regular steroid, and then until the inflammation goes fully down, and then the anti-inflammatory, you know, just people just take it forever. And I’m like, I don’t want to do that. I wanted to fight like that. Why did this just happen? So?   Dr. Joel Rosen: No? inquiring minds, you know, just trust your guts talking back to you. Right? Yeah, trust it, trust it mentally   Kristin Angona: Crazy, you know, like you’re feeling like this isn’t? You’re not just lucky that, like, you have to live with this forever, like you…   Dr. Joel Rosen: Can try. Right? That’s good, that’s a really good point. And you know, what it kind of gets us back with our mission, I think in terms of like, when I had that epiphany, like, Oh, my God, like, if this is happening to me, and I know a lot of stuff I felt and Imagine all the people that don’t know, a lot of stuff that is disempowered, and then just do what the doctor says to do. Even if the doctor I think does have the best interest from what they know, I don’t think they’re malicious. Like, I don’t think they’re like going out of their way to screw people. But, you know, there’s power in choice. And you’re not confined to have that, like, it’s so frustrating to think like, if you gave someone information and that information, if it were applied, you know, it would make a difference in terms of not just their quality of life, their quantity of life, it almost makes you more connected to why we do what we do because there are people out there that need to hear the information. So yeah, thank you. I mean, thanks for sharing everything, because it’s not a humbling conversation, right. I mean, it’s, it exposes the very nature of you know, what’s going on with you. So thank you for sharing, because I think anyone who listens to this will get, you know, empowered and, and feel like hey, and identify as well. And I know you mentioned about potentially, like, you know, if anyone ever has any questions, that you’re open to answering them because you’ve always been that way as well. So does is that fair? Oh, yeah…   Kristin Angona: Definitely. I want to help as many people as I can because I don’t want anyone to have to go through what I did. There are so many Facebook groups of people with like Crohn’s or ulcerative colitis, C, diff, all sorts of things, people just out there, like, I know, they’re just sitting on their couch not being able to move because they’re too weak, and they’re not eating and everything. So I just want as many people to know, as possible.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Well, I hope that the lessons they get weren’t that you just invested in yourself and took that leap of faith, but the other investigations like you trusted yourself that you weren’t crazy, that you weren’t destined to have to just accept the diagnosis, that you weren’t going to stop short of any answers, but the ones that you needed to hear to give you hope to put the next step forward. Are you I know you’ve told me that it’s like you’ve trained yourself in other, you know, skillsets for holistic health care and practice, and is there any specific goals or aspirations you have now that you’ve crossed that sort of that chasm in terms of what You want to do at a next level? Um,   Kristin Angona: I mean, I would love to be able to help people, you know, like help guide them to how they can get the answers. I mean, but in terms of my actual training, I did my Reiki certification. And then I mean, I’m just coaching in general, like my leadership degree, but I just want to help guide people to finding the answers that they need to help themselves. I just don’t know how to do that yet.   Dr. Joel Rosen: We’re developing it. I mean, I think it’s, it’s advocacy, right? I mean, that’s what it is. I mean, you’re, you’re an advocate for the empowered, or the unempowered to be empowered. Yeah. That they have choices, and that you’ve been there and done it, right. I mean, there’s nothing better than saying like, hey, look, I’m not just, you know, talking the talk, right. I’ve walked the walk. I’ve done it. I’ve been where you have. So that’s great. That’s a great thing. So yeah, I’m excited to, to see like, what at least I think, hey, and we said this a little bit before we started. I don’t think that healing is ever fully fixed, right? I mean, in terms of it’s an ongoing process, it’s a verb, something that’s always do and I said, Hey, we need to do another checkup just to see like, what smoke signals we see. So that we don’t see a burning building before it’s burning. You know, like, you always got to do that. So that’s, that’s still the on the docket per se.   Kristin Angona: Yes. And I guess just one thing I’d like to tell people to go back to like when you were a kid, where you’d always ask why, why why don’t have to just accept. Yeah, like the diagnosis of this is what it is, like, figure out why that happened, whether that’s it removed, you know, internal things, like, you know, like, I have the access histories, but also the external factors that created it like, EMF, I’m extremely sensitive to Yes,   Dr. Joel Rosen: I would never get on that. That’s right. You’re very extensive.   Kristin Angona: Yeah, you’ve taught me ways to limit my EMF exposure, like shutting my, my phone off. I’ve switched to like, I eat all organic food. Now I’ve switched all my cooking ware to pure ceramic I, like, all my cleaning products are nontoxic. So I’m trying to limit or control what I can control so that it makes, my body have an easier job to do.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s great advice. For sure. It. Yeah, no, it’s an awesome thing that you and again, you’re right. Like, there are no bad questions, right? Because a lot of people don’t want to speak up in front of the doctor because they don’t want to, you know, sometimes their bedside manner sucks. And like, they just want you to get out of the office and don’t like don’t bother them with a question. Don’t let that deter you. A and B, you have a right to know why. You know, like, why did this happen? Like just intuitively reflexively, like a knee-jerk reaction, like someone put the hammer on your knee? It’s like, Okay, I have this like, why like, oh, because it’s in the family. But, but why now? Like, you know, like.   Kristin Angona: Can you see because, you know, at 30 years old, they say, typically, I would have been showing signs that like, you know, in my young, younger 20s. So, for this to just hit on now. Oh, they also said ulcerative colitis is stress-induced. But I mean, I was the least stressed that I had ever been because I work from home now. I’m not dealing with, you know, customers right in my face. But now I realized, that hit me at the time where my body was its least stressed because it knew that was the only time I would be able to handle it too. So right.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s true. That’s a good point. Yeah, for sure. That is it’s amazing how that happens. No, it’s just one last thing I would say is a lot of people will say that they’re they never get stick. Like they have a really strong immune system. I was saying, Yeah, right. But like, that just also means you’re in wind up, right. So when you’re able to turn off the defense system, it’s not completely overreacting to every little thing, then some people will reflexively get sick a little more. That’s not what’s called a Herxheimer reaction. That’s just like rebalancing your immune system so it’s not a hyperdrive. And don’t necessarily another clinical Perla to this not to this interview today is just because you never get sick and you have a really strong immune system. If you have low energy, if you have blood in your stool, if you have, you know, ocular migraines, if you have things that you know, like, something’s wrong with me here, especially as overt as blood in your stool, but I’m never sick. Don’t just discount it and say, Oh, well, it mustn’t be a thing. You know, it’s a thing. You know, you sometimes you need those warning signs earlier, but thank goodness you had a major warning sign to say Okay, enough, Kristen, you got to do something about this, right. So awesome. All right. Well, great. I appreciate the time and the information. And like I said, I love the Hey, hope you can like have a part two On like what the next level of health brings for Kristin and, and things that learners people listening to this can learn from, from your lessons that you’ve learned. Awesome.   If you would like to contact Kristin to ask her questions, click here The post Stress and Ulcerative Colitis appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

https://youtu.be/Hy-QmC62ntE Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back very quickly. And I’m really excited to be joined by Don Moxley. He’s the director of the applied science and brand division at longevity labs Inc. in May 2020, he began working with longevity labs. As a nutritional supplement company founded in Austria, Maine, his role is the director of applied science and brand development, their flagship product, which we’ll be talking about, not just in terms of what it is spermidine life, how it is used in terms of balancing growth and building with recycling and clearing out or M tour and autophagy. And that’s going to be our main topic. But ultimately spermidine life is a daily nutritional supplement that has been shown to trigger a key element in longevity, which is called the toffee G. Hey, Don, thank you so much for being here today.   Don Moxley: It’s my pleasure. I’m really excited to be on the podcast and talk to your listeners.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, we were just geeking out a little bit before we got started here. And you were telling me about your background and how you were in exercise science. So why don’t you tell our listeners who are exhausted and burnt out a little bit of your own story?   Don Moxley: So my background, I’m trained as an exercise physiologist, and I’ve spent 25 of the last 35 years is either an adjunct or an assistant professor teaching the Exercise Sciences in a couple of different institutions. But while I’ve been teaching, I’ve also kept a foot in the industry, particularly in the wearable industry. And I’ve also spent a lot of time working with high-performance athletics back. Back early on, I worked with the Chicago Bulls, and this was back with the Jordan bulls. And I had two players on that team that were I’m an Ohio State guy. I graduated from Ohio State I wrestled at Ohio State. And that’s right, where did most of my work. So you’ve got you to know, that provides the connection. So I had two players on that team that we worked with all the way up to where in my last direct work, I was a sports scientist with the Ohio State University athletic program with their wrestling program from 15 through 18. In 2000, in the 2017 18 seasons, we measured three and a half million data points on our wrestling team. And one of the big things that came out of it that really ties into our discussion today was understanding heart rate variability and heart rates, very abilities, ability to diagnose problems with, with athletes that are underperforming, we could use it for exercise, prescription understanding, when do we go to the whip, when do we turn things back, but we could also use it and you can also use it in the selection, we learn things. You know, we learn things that you could actually use HRV for selection because if someone does not have the capability to recover, during either the big 10 or the national tournament, and they can’t make all American Well, we now we figured out that you’ve got to have about 75 milliseconds of RMS SD and your HRV to make all American and if you don’t have it, you won’t make it and we have we had with several data points to suggest that. So became kind of a knot in HRV. And the understanding recovery in my family. We’ve had issues in our family with post-traumatic stress. And you know, so whether you’re working with an Olympian or working with someone who has severe post-traumatic stress, you’re just on the other end of the same continuum. And the tools that we use with my Olympians, or this in my national champions, are the same tools we use with those that are just struggling to, to get through the day and deal with the burnout that so many people deal with.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, HRV has come a long way, I guess in terms of the ivory towers now into the 30,000 view foot, not even weekend warrior, but the person who’s exhausted and burnt out and just isn’t getting answers. And that’s who I see the dawn in terms of they’ve been to 510 15 doctors, their blood tests are quote-unquote, normal, yet they feel like crap, and they’re looking for solutions. And all of them that I initially encounter have 1001 different supplements in their pantry. And it’s not for the lack of trying or desire to get better or willingness to try so many different things. It’s just they haven’t cracked the code if you will, and I think what you’re what we’ll be talking about today and transitioning From what you just told me, now you have the spermidine life and you have a product that really kicks into a toughie, G. Why don’t you kind of segue from our talk and segue from the shift that you made, and how it how that got originated, what the genesis of that was?   Don Moxley: Well, what’s interesting about it, so, again, we were talking beforehand, I left Ohio State in 2018, frankly, because they weren’t ready for the work that I was doing. Um, and, and that can be challenging, but it was a great experience I had, I mean, I really enjoyed it, we learned a lot. But I actually moved down into your neighborhood, I was living down in North Palm Beach working in the cannabis business. Because while I was doing the HRV work, you know, I had, I had peers in the pros, that were asking, Hey, are you looking at cannabis with your athletes and my athletes were NCAA athletes. So cannabis was off the table. But through a connection of a connection, I was invited to come down into that business, and I, you know, I drove and dove into the deep end of the pot pool. And you know, when you start understanding HRV, you have to understand the endocannabinoid system, you have to understand these recovery tools. And it was just a wonderful lesson. I mean, I listen, I don’t I don’t know where you’re at spiritually. But I have, I believe I have a lot of angels looking out for me, and I try to keep my radar as open as possible and go where directed. And it was a great experience, to really dig into that space. And while I was in that space, I met, I get a call one day from a guy saying, Hey, what are you doing? And you know, I was building a brand down there in Florida for one of the cannabis companies in the medical space. And he said we’ve got this new molecule. And, and Dr. Rosen, I, I was I passively recognized the term autophagy. I had never heard of the word spermidine. And so but I trusted this guy, and I started to dig in. And, and the awakening was really interesting. And, you know, I talk about the fact that I’ve taught, I’ve taught 20 You know, I’ve taught in the last 30 years, 35 years. And when you teach exercise science, inevitably you wind up teaching a nutrition class. And I’ve taught nutrition, I don’t know a dozen times. And typically when we teach nutrition, I call it Wardwell nutrition because one of the leading textbooks in nutrition is by Wardwell. And it’s the classic macronutrients micronutrients how to read a food label baloney when you don’t teach about baloney but it’s that was you know, it’s a BS term. And while I was passive why passively recognize the term autophagy, you can’t dig into spermidine and not have a deep understanding of autophagy. So that was interesting. And I thought back well, I’ve been teaching nutrition for 30 years now. And typically in nutrition, you teach a nutrient, and here’s the effect of the nutrient proteins, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins, minerals, and water. That’s the typical course. Right? And listen, we teach about vitamin C, because in the 14 to 16 hundred’s, we’re packing people on the boats, they were on the water for a long time, they developed a condition called scurvy. But we figured out if they took lines with them and lemons and citrus, it wasn’t as bad. Well, that’s where we discovered vitamin C, we learned about vitamin E with prisoners and in Japan, we learned so we learn about these micronutrients and their effect. Well, I believe now listen, I research typically it takes 15 to 17 years for research to make its way into what’s called standard of care and medicine. And the research that’s going on today won’t be part of the standard of care in medicine for 15 years while I’m looking forward to the first nutritional textbook that teaches about the condition of tautology and the fact that you get a tautology not through what you eat, but when what you don’t eat and when you don’t eat. I think that’s a really important part that’s got to come along and we’re early on. I don’t expect to see this textbook for 10 years. But I think it’s an important part of progressive nutrition. And then we start to look at so we understand calorie restriction, and it’s in Packed on autophagy, now we can start to look at what’s called calorie restriction mimetics. What are nutrients that we can take in that stimulate a toughie G. And spermidine is one of those, um, you know, spermidine is this molecule it’s in every cell of your body men, women, plants and animals. It’s low at birth had peaked about 30, and declines from there on out. But people who age well into their 90s and Centurions have high sperm and iron levels. And we know that populations that consume high spermidine foods in their diets have higher spermidine levels. And oh, by the way, they live longer, too, we see this in the Blue Zone work. So um, so that’s, you know, that’s kind of how I go from, you know, doing HRV on a bunch of college wrestlers, through selling weed in South Florida into cannabis. You know, there’s a, there’s a connection there. And that’s that connection about helping people live their best lives. And that’s kind of how I operate.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s an awesome story. There’s a lot of lessons just in that itself, I mean, teaching something for 35 years, and being humble enough to know that what you don’t know, is still something that you can learn which a lot of people that are exhausted and burnt out labeled themselves like this, that or the other, and they become labeled, and they become crabs in the bucket. And they don’t want to let the other people get pulled out because they’re identifying with that term. And I think that’s similar to what you said, the other lesson was listening to your little angels and knowing like, if it doesn’t, if it doesn’t pass the spidey senses and your tingling, then you know, there’s something inherent to listen to, I’m just going to review a little bit for some of the listeners that may not know, and I’ve taught it before, but HRV heart rate variability, you know, the 32nd commercial is, it’s the cadence or the beats between the beats. And if you’re under sympathetic dominance, you’re gonna have a very low HRV, because it’s, boom, boom, boom, boom, very quick, even though it doesn’t tell you your pulse rate, it just tells you what are the variants between the beats exists, if you’re very adaptable, metaphorically, as well as physiologically, and you can tap into parasympathetic activity, your variance between the beats will be higher. And that’s going to be a better score and a better indication of recovery, a better indication of adaptability, and also not necessarily being under constant fight or flight hormones, which the people that we listen to are, are continually under stress. So I just wanted to kind of clarify that for the listener. Now, what I wanted to kind of get into was, as far as what autophagy is, and then on the flip side, what m tour is, and growth factors. And I really liked the idea of what you’ve said, it’s not so much and I agree with you sacred cows of the macronutrients and the small meals more frequently to keep your sugar levels stable, although they’re always high. And, you know, the food bullshit, excuse the language pyramid and how, you know, ketchup is one of them, you know, the vegetables on the pyramid, and the RTA. And it’s just these are sacred cows that need to topple by now, already, as far as things go. But as far as the question I’m going to get to is, why why is it so important, as you’re seeing in your research, to be able to tap into a tautology, and how you need to do that with, with not putting your foot on the gas pedal on the brakes at the same time?   Don Moxley: Well, it’s important for the listener to recognize the fact that autophagy when we start talking about autophagy, is a relatively recent discovery, they just gave a Nobel Prize in 2017, to a Japanese researcher that described the processes of autophagy. So the autophagy on the parts that take place in the cell. This is a relatively new science. And now we started to look when you look at longevity research, what we see is that autophagy is one of these. It’s a key element to longevity, that that right now, the only experimental manipulation that you can really do that legitimately extends longevity is calorie restriction. And this is science. Now, remember, this is a relatively new science to that Clive McKay at Cornell. Back in the mid-50s. He ran out of money in the lab he had he couldn’t feed all his rats. So he fed one set of rats a full diet, he cut the diet on the other half of the rats, and the rats that were getting the partial diet did better than the full feed. It was one of the first places that we see the experimental application of calories. restriction? Well, this has evolved over time it’s taken a while, you know, they did a paper in, in the early 2000s, looking at the 50th anniversary of McKay, and looking at McKay’s work, and we’re starting to see that really start to pop out in the literature as well. But we’re starting to see, we’re starting to see researchers figure out why what is it about calorie restriction that leads to improved longevity? Well, it’s this autophagy process. And now we’re starting to see some of the autophagy research. Listen, we’ve got some papers in spermidine, and autophagy work that was spermidine supplementation and the increase of autophagy, we see an improvement of cognitive performance, we see a thickening of hippocampal thickness in the brain, which is improved memory, we see improved cardiovascular fitness. Listen, there’s a great paper that I’ll put out there. And I think you can probably put it in the show notes. It’s called spermidine, and health and disease. I think it’s one of the best review papers, when you take a look at cardiovascular benefit, neural benefit, stem cell production increase, there are all these key elements that are a byproduct of the spermidine supplementation and triggering the autophagy process. And if you think about this, you know, listen, we live in a society now that is energy toxic, we have so much energy around us. It’s leading to toxicity. And we’re trying to understand why that is. And listen, um, when you look at all timers are some of these dementia-based diseases. Listen, we don’t have a dementia drug. the problem in society, we have an energy issue that we have to pay attention to we have so much junk energy available, that autophagy we never have to trigger autophagy, and what we’re finding is that autophagy is a key element. Again, I go back to the textbook example that I believe autophagy will be covered it will get a chapter in the textbooks. What is the toffee g? How do you stimulate it? What are the key elements, and you stimulate it not by what you eat, but what you don’t eat many times, and now we’re starting to see mimetics We’re so you know, again, we see spermidine, we know Sperma nine decreases with age. And if we and even if you are fasting, if you have low sperm, nine levels consuming sperm, and it increases the autophagy process. We know that now we’re continuing to dive into that research. Again, we’ve got to do most of our work and model organisms, we got secondary indicators in humans. But it’s again, we’re sitting on one of these cutting-edge research elements. That’s really exciting.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it is really exciting. And you know, we have very similar backgrounds in the Exercise Sciences. And I think we both agree that the original biohackers, well, not the original, but the 1970 biohackers were the bodybuilders and the people that could understand that you just don’t continue to lift weights, you have to go through periodization and you have to go through hypertrophy, and then you have to go through rest and recovery and building and growing. And then come Yang and Yang. And there’s a really important theory, I mean, that goes back to 1000s of years of ancient Chinese or Chinese medicine and Yang Yin Yang. And what I find is genetics haven’t changed at all. But environmentally has changed crazy wise, energetically wise. And we have too many growth factors that stimulate and I tell people like autophagy is really easy to think of thinking about it as the farmer harvest his his his crops at the end of the season. And then he’ll plow the fields and he’ll help the cells or the plants or the stock that didn’t get used up and it will get recycled back into the soils. And the parts that weren’t used will be composted and reused, just like our body needs to do that. And if we’re not able to clear out these dead cells and these folded proteins and these, I guess, if you will these bacteria or these microorganisms, then you’re not going to be able to recover and rebuild when it comes time. But even more alarming is what we see now are things like iron or Richmond in our foods. glyphosate lowering glutamate, bacteria and in our microbiome, plastics, and BPA is growth hormones and antibiotics and pesticides, you know, just so many things that stimulate the growth factors that it makes it that much more important to be able to tap into a tapa G. So maybe why don’t you teach us exactly Okay, well, where does spermidine fit in? Because a lot of the people that we work with, the doctors aren’t giving them answers, and they’ve had to become their own advocates. And they really do enjoy not the feeling crappy part of it. But the research and the AHA is that they have of Oh, my gosh, I wish I would have known this earlier. I’ve been taught this as you said, so where is spermidine? For the listeners fitting in in terms of why does it stimulate autophagy?   Don Moxley: Well, the reason spermine is it, what we understand now is it’s a clear autophagy trigger. There’s a set of proteins when we start talking about spermidine. So if you’ve read David Sinclair’s book on lifespan, or if you’ve looked at whether it’s Valter Longo, his book on the longevity diet and the in the fasting, mimicking diet there, you know, there’s a lot of research and starting to touch around the edge of this. But what we know is spermidine is a key trigger to some of the genes that trigger the autophagy pathway. And these this is significant, it’s more than just the sirtuins or the backlands it’s playing a whole set and I’m not going to go down the genetic rabbit hole here. But it this is happening intracellularly It’s a molecule that needs to be present. Now, what we find is in long-lived populations, they typically are consuming spermidine-rich diets, you find spermidine in the fermented soy product, NATO and if you’ve grown up Japanese and that’s been part of your diet, go crazy. Um, if you’ve grown up in the states and you’ve never had it, it’s you’re gonna find it disgusting. It’s pretty hard to choke down. Or we see it in we extract ours from wheat germ, but we get it from European we German we’ve not been able to do it in the states yet. And we’re looking, but are we germ is coming from middle Europe, Austria, southern Germany, Northern Italy, Switzerland, the Europeans are much tougher on glyphosate. So we’re able and there’s a range. So a big part of what our company does is, first of all, we have to find spermidine rich fields, not all wheat germ is the same, then we bring that in and we have to we eliminate probably half of what we bring in because the spermidine content isn’t high enough to refine and then what we have, then we refine it with a water-based process, the only thing we use is water and creating our spermidine rich supplement. You can eat wheat germ, you can eat soybeans, you can eat a lot, there are mushrooms that have high permanent contents. The problem is you don’t know what the content of the spermidine in the product is. That’s the challenge. And that’s what’s created the opportunity for us. So and I want to jump back because you asked me earlier. So autophagy and mtorr. So what we know and you and I have both of you know when you’re working with athletes, you’re typically dealing with someone who’s 30 years or younger, we’re dealing with someone that’s 15 to 25. Maybe if you’ve got a long live pro or someone like that. And you know what, when you’re eating small meals multiple times a day, you are feeding the mTOR pathway, your body is going to be cranking out proteins, there are no two ways about it. The problem is this. When your body makes protein, it doesn’t make them all the same, and it doesn’t make them all correctly. So if your ribosome Krebs cranks out this one protein with one of the amino acids, that’s not correct, that protein won’t go in won’t go into you. So it’ll just sit there in the cell. This is the beauty of the autophagy process is that when there is a demand made on the system, there’s calorie restriction and there’s energy demand. This is when the autophagy process kicks in and says, oh, let’s go clean up these old proteins that aren’t very valuable anymore. And let’s go clean up these mitochondria, or these other organelles that just aren’t valuable anymore. And let’s clean that up and let’s put their parts back into circulation as either energy or to build with and that’s where we get a really healthy process. I’m personally most excited about understanding the role of autophagy in dementia in some of these Alzheimer ‘s-like diseases. We’ve got a lot there’s there are two great papers that just came out in the last month looking at this, and that people who consume high sperm and iron levels have lower levels of dementia. And we see an increase in cortical thickness in Alzheimer’s disease. parts of the brain that get attacked. So you know what, that’s where I’m most excited. We have a paper that came out, I’m not sure it’s in print yet it’s been accepted. But we see that when you have sperm and iron supplementation, you see an improvement in an in toffee G and immune response, particularly with COVID. We see an improvement we so we see the fact that it’s that the immune system is stopping the transmission of that virus at 85 90% of the time. So we’ve actually got some studies going on in Europe right now looking at this so so clearly, this, as you said earlier, improved the toffee g winds up improving immunity, it winds up improving neural performance, it winds up improving cardiovascular performance, we see an increase in nitric oxide, we see an increase in Appa endothelial cell production and quality. But we also see an improvement in epithelial stem cells. So when people start taking spermidine, one of the first things they report is improved Hair, Skin, and Nails. your fingernails start growing like crazy, your hair grows faster, and your skin gets better. So that’s one of the benefits that it’s one of the first things we see with the product.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. I’d love to kind of get into you because we’re where I’m, I’m in the field, as the field general, right? So I’m working with clients that are exhausted and burnt out. And by the way, I know that COVID is replicated through m tour. And so if we have all these m tour signaling pathways always being turned on, you are going to have more neural degeneration, more inflammation, more problems. So really, what I want to teach them and learning right now in real-time, is what is the sweet spot? And there’s no textbook answer in terms of, Okay, how many days do we want to end the tour is not bad, I mean, pregnant, just state, if they didn’t have mtorr, bodybuilders wouldn’t grow, we wouldn’t be able to repair our bodies. This is where now we can link back the HRV to see which way we’re trending to know, hey, I gotta switch this up, if I’ve been doing too much, a toughie, G. And I’ve been too much caloric restricting. And I haven’t been getting my proteins. And I’ve been doing too many things that are cleansing or recycling cells, maybe my heart rate variability starts to slow down or drop. And   Don Moxley: actually, the more I fast, the lower my HRV gets. So when you’re listening, your body recognizes fasting as calorie restriction or fasting is a threat. Your body sees that as a threat. So you’re going to see a drop in HRV, you’re going to see the body say, Hey, we need to get energy. So it’s going to cause you to naturally try to spin out your own energy sources. And listen, that’s one of the beauties when we start to get fat metabolism and we get the beta-hydroxybutyrate. And we get the alpha-ketoglutarate. And we get the great ketone bodies created. We get sharp mentally, it’s one of the benefits. So So yeah, and what’s going to be interesting as the research goes on, you know, listen, our body likes cycles. It loves cycles, it does not like being static. And when you look at the diurnal process, there’s no doubt in my mind that we’re going to see autophagy linked to the diurnal process. So we’re going to continue to work our way through this and understand this better. One of our challenges right now is we don’t have a great, tougher gene marker. I can’t, I can’t take your blood, I can’t put a wearable on you. It’s a challenge now. And you know, when we look at fasting, I don’t know what you see with your customers. But, you know, I know when I first started fasting, I was actually living down just north of you. In a one-bedroom apartment by myself, I didn’t have any family that I was having to work with. So doing some kind of crazy meal manipulation was really easy for me. Now that I’m back up north, I live with my wife. She works a little different schedule than I work. My daughter who’s now just finished up her first year of graduate school is back living with us. So coordinating family meals with three different schedules, and fasting can be a challenge. Now and I don’t know about you the first time I fasted you know I got to where I was going 3045 60 days of solid 18 six, throwing in 24 and 48 hour fasts at least once a week. And I felt great. Wow. What we’re seeing though, is that people who are fasting too much are starting to see a drop in lean mass. And that drop in lean mass that’s Listen, you’ve got to maintain muscle. lean mass for longevity. It’s the number one predictor of quality life is strength and power. So you want that mtorr process. But we need the toffee g process to constantly clean those cells and make sure that we’re not fighting, that our cells are able to fight the immune process that’s going on that the rest of our body has to protect against. Does that make sense?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it says, it just speaks to the yin and yang of everything. There’s a Goldilocks zone of not too little, not too much. I think it first comes down to dawn, the fact that what is your goal, and what is your number one challenge, like, if you’re catabolic, and you have problems putting on weight, then you’re going to want to emphasize a little bit more your m tour strategies. Whereas if you’re overweight and insulin resistant, like 75% of the population, yeah, and I think those are surrogate markers, I agree with you. There are not specific markers, I think there are really good surrogate markers that are correlated with if you’re in a toughie g like knowing about your ketone levels or your glucose ketone index, I think those are good insulin growth factors and fasting insulin are good mtorr markers. But it comes down to what is your personal goal? What’s your age? What are your health challenges? And I agree with you in terms of not just circadian rhythms. But you know, over the millennia, how our bodies have been engineered for feast and famine and how we go through periods of abundance. And those are the years where we’re harvesting our crops. And we’re able to go through indulgence, I’m sure that certainly the season, certainly the seed, maybe not the season, yes, the seasons, the seasons. And you know, there weren’t refrigerators or 24-hour delivery services, or all of these, you know, lights that would stimulate our pineal gland and create melatonin shifts. So I think we’re dealing with a lot more environmental cues that throw us out of the natural rhythm, and we’ve lost the coherence with the earth. And it takes a behooves us to be that much more aligned with what we have to do proactively. So I guess the question would be the as far as developing protocols around that, I am teaching my audience and the people that I coach one on one, once we do get a genetic blueprint of what your potentials are, what your susceptibilities are, what rocks to look under, once we get an idea of your, if you will, your scorecard of what are your variables or your analytes that are not just laboratory high or low, but are functionally trending towards a C minus versus a failing grade, and be able to assess what’s going on there. And then be able to come up with a protocol of not driving with your foot on the gas and the brakes at the same time. And that means, okay, I don’t want you to be doing all of these mtorr stimulating nutrients, lots of proteins, lots of carbs, lots of B vitamins, not regulating your iron. I personally don’t feel that mtorr will ever be shifted off in today’s day and age just because of emf themselves.   Don Moxley: Well, I don’t for you don’t want it Listen, when mTOR shuts down, you’re dead pretty quick. You’ve got I mean, our we’re constantly reforming proteins in our body. The challenge is, is that we know that we make a bad protein, there’s a bad protein ratio, that starts to build up. We’ve got to constantly replace that. So again, it’s your yin and yang constantly driving that process.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Right. So as far as though in your bio, it says that it can be used every day. So I’m just going to be ignorant of this fact and sincerely ask the question. If I don’t want to constantly like I agree as you’ll never turn off mtorr if you could just slow it down enough so that autophagy can actually kick in or don’t overfeed it. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Don’t overfeed. But like, how is your experience anecdotally or with this research that the spermidine is doing? It’s a supplement for daily intake because I’m open to changing my thought process. I really like to use these surrogate markers and these wearables and these data tracking to get an idea and of course, looking at the scorecard how they change and most importantly, subjectively, how are you doing? But I also realize that like you just said, there’s a Cinderella zone or Goldilocks zone of you just can’t be in autophagy all the time, but spermidine life is a product that has been shown to be able to allow m tour go Even though you’re using an autophagy based product every day,   Don Moxley: well, remember spermine nine is going to trigger that. And you’re always going to have the pressures back and forth that with calorie consumption, you’re going to get the insulin-like growth factors, the insulin, you’re going to get the triggers for autophagy, if you then are going to calorie restrict as well, naturally, put that into your diet, you’ve got to have the underlying molecules. Listen, we don’t need to supplement mtorr it’s in the cellar. Wait, we haven’t figured this out yet. It’s what we know is that there’s been plenty, you know, we don’t need Rictor or Raptor, whether it’s m torque one or M torque two. So that being said, what we know is that as spermidine drops, autophagy drops. And if you think of protein development, as well as autophagy, being cyclical, you’re going to see those two pressuring each other back and forth. But in the absence of spermidine, the pressure stays on the mtorr side, it doesn’t shift over to the autophagy side. So what we’re finding from our research is that there needs to be a serum level and that we supplement at that level. I look at you know, I don’t know if you do work with Senolytics whether it’s five to 10, of course, a 10 or, or things like that when we look at the elimination of senescence cells. You know, senescence cells are important from time to time, you know, there’s, there’s a lot of you know, our bodies can stop cancer with senescence cells, so we don’t want to just wipe out our senescent cells, but we do want to clean them out every once in a while. That’s the reason I like that Mayo product Mayo Clinic protocol of using Feiss attendant quercetin for a couple of days take a couple of weeks off and letting the senescent cells do what they need to do. So when we start looking at m tour production versus a tapa G, I think the cycle is shorter. I think it’s I personally feel it falls into that diurnal process, I’m going to build proteins while I’m feeding, and I’m going to trigger autophagy, some period of time after I stopped feeding. And this is the value of that 16 818, six, maybe 24. Listen, we can’t starve ourselves to immortality. Um, you know, there’s a process that comes in there. And I think it’s important and the what we see spermidine is being a, a base level that declines with age. So it’s about improving that third, third. Now, I want to go let me go address this a little bit for you. Because when we because you said something earlier that I think is really important. What are your goals? What are your objectives? You know, there was a period of time prior to becoming a father, when I was spending a lot of time worrying about what I look like or as an athlete training to be an athlete and be big and strong and do some of these things. But now that I am, I think of life in three thirds. The first third we spend learning and the second third, we spend in service to others either as work or, or raising our families. But then there’s a third of life. My wife and I are getting ready to go into that my daughter, you know, we have one child and she’s finishing up grad school. So she will move out of our house probably permanently in a year. And she and I, I don’t ever listen, I love to work. I love what I’m doing. I hope I never retire because I love learning. And this is just the place I like to be. But I’m moving into my third when I’m doing things that I choose to do for myself, not for others, you know, that trip of a lifetime, or I can’t wait. I told someone the other day. One of the greatest things I enjoyed wasn’t coaching. You know, I’ve coached a lot of kids and a lot of levels. My, my most favorite coaching experience was when I coach my daughter’s eighth-grade field hockey team. It was it was wonderful. And I’ve come in again, I’ve coached Olympians in wrestling, I’ve coached multiple national champions I’ve worked on eighth-grade field hockey was the best. And I’m looking forward to coaching my grandchild’s eighth-grade field hockey team. So all of a sudden my purpose now I’m actually it’s funny that we got into this because I have an outline for a book that we are putting together called the hallmarks of longevity science. And when we look at the hallmarks I have Are you familiar with Stephen Covey’s The Seven Habits of Highly Well, you’re familiar with his rocks in the jar analogy, right, right. Yeah. What are the big rocks in the jar? In my mind, the four big rocks in the jar are exercises, you cannot ignore them. But the note I have next exercise is to stop exercising to lose weight. Note nobody takes a picture of their scale and hangs it on the wall. Okay, it’s a horrible goal exercise for what I call trainable life events. that it could be a 3k it could be a 10k it could be a vacation, my trainable life events now I’m starting to train for my daughter’s wedding and my grandchildren and my great-grandchildren. That’s so my goals have shifted to clearly healthspan lifespan, Not I, you know, I’ve lifted lots of weights. I mean, I used to train with Lou Simmons at Westside barbell before it was Westside You know, I’ve moved lots of weight I’ve completed. I’m beyond that. So now all of a sudden, my objectives have shifted to longevity. I am very insulin resistant, I’m diagnosed as a type two diabetic I have to pay attention. I’m, you know, listen, if a mad famine kicked in you skinny little muscular types, you know, you’re going to be gone before us fat efficient guys go. So. But when we live in an energy toxic environment, I have to be careful. So I’m shifting into my third, we’re looking at what happens hormones. Let me go back to the four rocks exercise. I don’t exercise to benchpress and squat anymore. I exercise for mobility and safety and I exercise for mitochondria production. So I’ve shifted from my cardio work to where it’s where zone three, four, and five, two are my cardio work is zone two and three now because I’m trying to feed my mitochondria all I can. So exercise, the second rock in the jar, and my book is is food from unprocessed sources. I don’t I don’t get into a vegan carnivore. I feel like I’ve made the statement that in the absence of extinction, there’s there is no evolution, there’s only diversity. And I believe it’s fair that with the diversity we have, some people may do better vegan, some people may be doing better carnivore. And as you said, you got to figure out what works for you. But what we can agree on is, the more you process food, the worse it is for you. So trying to get stuff, you know, farm to table as much as possible. My third rock in the jar, we put to sleep we call it to sleep, it’s recovery. It’s understanding stress and recovery. I do a lot of work with meditation and floating. And these are key elements for dealing with boosting parasympathetic reaction and recognizing the sympathetic in our lives and factors. You can’t fix bad sleep, you can’t hack, you have to have good sleep, then you can put Caxton on top of that. And then my fourth rock is photobiomodulation I think the amount of light that we get on our skin has become a problem. So those are my four big rocks. And when you look at longevity, the jar that they’re going into I call purpose, what is your purpose in life. And when you have your purpose, then it gives you a guide for what you do with those four big rocks. And we can bring other things in. I mean, so there are nutritional strategies, there are hacks, at the exercise level, there are hacks at the food level, there are hacks at the light level, and there are hacks at the stress and recovery level. So that’s where biohacking comes into play. And it’s important because our environment has driven us away from our genes from our genetic optimization. You know, you and I were talking earlier about their air conditioning and living in South Florida. And, you know, Homo sapiens were successful, the genetic set that we have, we’re successful over Neanderthals because we adapted better. Okay, so our genetics, love adaptation. Well, unfortunately, now live environments where we don’t have to adapt. We live in houses with flat floors and don’t even have stairs, you know, so why do people have so many back problems, because they don’t have to pick their knee up above 90 degrees to climb anymore. So their iliopsoas has spasming and it’s crossing over the sciatic nerve in two different places. And they’re coming to you to get fixed. And the fact is, they should just climb more I mean, if you need that environment, we live in environments that you know, the temperature in our house between summer and winter, when the temperature outside very 60 degrees, our temperature inside varies four degrees. And that’s a problem. It’s we have to hack that somehow. So we understand the value of Heat Shock proteins and cold shock proteins. You know, if you’re watching this and not listening to it, you look over my right shoulder, you see my sauna. You know, it’s important it’s one of them. It’s one of my important hacks. So you know, that’s where I go back to, you have to have a purpose. You have to have those things that you’re focused on that put pictures on the wall about how you define yourself, and then that will help drive those four key elements. And one of those hacks is understanding, you know, we in our diets, we don’t have enough spermidine. Now, if you live in a Blue Zone, maybe you do and you don’t have to worry about it, but what we found is the rest of us don’t. And this is what’s that combined with caloric toxicity. We have to hack our way to figure this out so that we can get back into the mtorr, anabolic, the autophagy catabolic process. And spermidine life just happens to be one of those molecules.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great answer. And I’m thinking to myself, we’ll have to definitely do a part two because I have so many questions to ask you in that. But you know, as complicated as some of the terms you used are Don. It’s not rocket science, right? I mean, common sense ain’t so calm. And when, when we’re not moving, and we’re isolating and we’re where we’re, anyways, that’s a whole other slippery slope. But we do need to move right? We need to be assertive.   Don Moxley: Go back. Listen, let’s go back to the jar and the four rocks. Okay. It starts with purpose. Yeah. And you know what, you have to sit back and decide my purpose in life is not working for someone else. I have I you know, it was interesting for me when I left Ohio State back in 2018. It was hard because I did not I didn’t want to leave. But you know, Listen, I’ve got the Ohio State tattoo. You know, I’ve my both my brothers went there. My daughter went there. You know, my brother in my parents, sons, and grandsons. We have 16 varsity letters from Ohio State. We have nine degrees and 16 varsity letters. We all my two brothers and I met our wives there. We’ve got 97 years of marriage, from relationships that we developed at Ohio State, we are true blue and it hurt to leave. But I feel like the universe pushed me away. It said your work here is done. And so I had to sit back and figure out what my purpose is and when you look at my LinkedIn description, you’ll see that I help understand individuals make decisions that lead to the reduction of suffering and the promotion of well people you know, that’s kind of things and, and so while I have a degree in exercise, physiology, understanding mtorr and understanding these things are key. So the purpose is critical. Listen, pick up something heavy every once in a while, like twice a week, just pick-ups. Don’t get caught up in whether I’m doing CrossFit or something else. Pick up something heavy, make it a regular part. And oh, by the way, go walk. Those two things are transformative. If you have challenges with those and you need to your invite your environment is right. Well maybe you need to put a peloton bike in so you have access to it. Maybe you need to put in some kind of a piece of equipment to help pick up something heavy. It’s listening for me exercise is that simple. You can throw in yoga on top of that you can throw in a lot of these other things, but pick up something heavy and walk when we look at nutrition. Just start getting your food from unprocessed sources quit buying your meals out of your car window. Start you know you have to learn how to cook Okay, you have to learn and the more you cook, the better you’re able to acquire food from unprocessed sources. When we take a look at sleep and stress learn to go to bed without a TV in your room turn off the lights get the bed at the same time on a regular basis. You know I used to love to sit up and watch you know the tonight show and those shows I used to really enjoy that but you know what? When I understand sleep and recovery I have a DVR and if I really need to see if it’s there on the internet and I can get it when the when those when the sun’s up and then finally light listen when I was living in Florida um I am a brown being I am I have a Native American background and the sun my skin loves the sun but when I’m up north I have to have hacks for that my wife and I have a Juve unit we put in near-infrared unit one of the most my Juve unit will lower my blood sugar more than insulin. Think about that. Now I’m not an insight I had bad knee surgery back in September I want it with a Mersa infection from so I was very ill in September and October and I couldn’t walk and my diet was horrible in my blood sugar got out of control and I had to start to use insulin just to maintain that. Well, I’ve stopped using it now because I’m doing it all with movement and with what I eat, but you know, I pay close attention to what I use this CGM, and light is going to become even more dramatic as we move on. So. So those are the four big rocks, but they go into a jar called purpose.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And that’s the awesome answer, I would just elaborate your fourth rock on Photomodulation and put frequency modulation and frequency awareness because EMF’s You know, that’s a specially with 5g that’s a whole other conversation. But that has been shown to stimulate mtorr. It has been shown to cause insulin spikes, and we are bombarded by it on a daily basis and there’s no escaping it. But we can certainly be proactive with it, we can put our phones on airplane mode, we can put our routers on a wireless timer, or we can resync it up to the wires. We can have a two-day three day week sabbatical. And we’ll still live you know, we grew up with these things without having these things. But there’s I got a run, I appreciate your time, I will put a link to be able to how to access getting spermidine under the show notes so that people can try it. And I would hope that you and I can meet Don for part two because I have so much more to go with you. But I appreciate your time. And I appreciate all that you’re doing. I love your mission and your purpose. And I just want to thank you for being here today.   Don Moxley: Well, again, I really appreciate the opportunity. I’m looking forward to the next one. And spermidine life if you’re looking online, there’ll be a link in the show notes. But spermidine life.us. If you go to spermidine life calm, you’ll go to our Austrian site. We don’t have the geo-locating worked out yet. But if you want to see it if if you don’t speak German, it’s better to go to spermidine live.us. That’s our US site and kind of where we operate.   Dr. Joel Rosen:  Awesome. Thank you so much, Don. I appreciate it. Have a great day. You too.   The post How and Why To Achieve Autophagy for Adrenal Fatigue appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults, the truth about adrenal fatigue so that we can get them their health back quickly. And this is always a pleasure to be joined by a client of ours that we’ve had some really successful outcomes. And this has been the same with Gus Pon single who’s had some major health challenges along the way. However, we’ve been able to customize a recovery strategy around his unique health challenges and really get some major wins. And we want to share with you Gus his journey today. So Gus, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate your time. Thanks for having me. Oh, yeah. So I was just looking through our initial onset of care. And that goes back as early as November 2018. Now, that doesn’t mean we necessarily saw you every single month over that course of time. But ultimately, when when you presented and reached out to us, you had several health challenges that you were dealing with, when I look at some of the forms that you filled out, insomnia was a huge one, what you actually had forgotten about, as we talked about a little earlier, brain fog, bloating, gastric pains, why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background in your story, and you said, You’ve been dealing with this for about 10 years. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about what you were dealing with before starting with us? Gus?   Gus Ponstingl: Yeah, I think a lot of it started really, once I got married about 14 years ago, and I had some food poisoning in that rough, early marriage period. And then I ended up going overseas on a couple of trips. And my gut really started to suffer, I felt bloated, and I also just noticed that I was putting on weight, without the ability to take it off. And I didn’t notice I was really doing anything specifically different to do that. And then I also noticed that fatigue started setting in so it was like I was just gradually getting worse, you know, it wasn’t like an immediate, although the food poisoning, I felt that was a step-down, you know, and I felt constipation at that point. And it never really went away, you know, and I was doing all kinds of things to try to get my browser, my bowel movements going. And I just, it was really a struggle over the years. And I’m a natural person. So I really, somewhere along the line, I got out of the medical world, and I started doing natural, and I’m really reluctant to go to that world. So I was doing a lot of natural things. And but you know, you’d have some success, but you weren’t really like nailing it. And so, yeah, gradually, it just, I almost lost the ability to sleep at all. I mean, I think I, I get about three to four hours a night, early in the evening, and about three o’clock, I’d wake up and I’d be awake for a lot, you know, I’d be awake most of the morning with very light sleeping, and then up again. And I ended up doing some things in the middle of the night as hobbies that really were productive. But you know, it was like, I’d rather be sleeping, you know, and so that that was something that, you know, we were just talking about has changed dramatically as a big change. In fact, this morning, again, was it was seven o’clock, the alarm was going off. And I was like, you know, I have to get out of bed now. And that was never the case. So seven o’clock is a pretty normal time for most people to get out of bed. But I’d be easily up at three or four in the morning and just almost cursing that clock, The clock, you know, like, I’m not going to get back to sleep, what am I going to do? And I’d be wide awake. You know you’d get that feeling of like, yeah, I’m not at all as we, you know. So, gradually, though, what, what led me to work with you is I’ve worked with several practitioners. Um, I don’t know when it really started in earnest that I know I needed how, but I would get little pieces of it, you know, it seemed like, but it really didn’t seem like it was all coming together. And I think I was even feeling like maybe I was having some heart issues, although I’m not sure that was really the case. I feel like there was something with my metabolism that really had gotten stuck and I couldn’t switch over. I guess most of your audience is gonna know what ketosis is. If they’re, if they’re in your sphere, then they probably know that, as your body is switching over to ketosis from more of the sugar side of the burning. I couldn’t get there. And I would just crash crash crash. And I was baffled by that. And so I think I was looking for, I didn’t know if it was adrenal fatigue. I know you deal a lot with adrenal fatigue and like a lot of people you hear things and you’re like, yeah, my adrenals don’t seem to be working. Maybe that’s it. So I reached out to you and then we started working together. 2018 I noticed improvement. Pretty much. I can’t say I’m The best patient, I mean, we didn’t meet all the time, right, we met pretty infrequently every three, six months. Um, and I would sort of wing it for a while. And I would say, gradually, I’ve been getting better, you know, with a little bit of a stress setback, this last fall or early spring. But then we kind of started fine-tuning my supplements, and I really feel like, again, it’s like, I don’t know, if I’m churning out getting better, like getting stuff out of my system. But yeah, I do gradually feel like, things are getting better. Again, I do crazy things at night, I used to not do anything in the evening, I was a blob on the couch, you know, I will be four o’clock, five o’clock, I was out of energy, you know, and I was gonna sit on the couch, and, you know, play videos, and I have five kids. So, you know, watching my kids grow up, and not being able to go out and do things with them. Or, you know, my daughter’s always wanting to go ride her bike, you know or teach kids basketball or whatever, you know, I wasn’t able to do any of that stuff. Because I just, it’s hard to describe like, you don’t have the ability to do it. You’re just literally a blob, and I kind of look at it like aging, you know, like, I’m getting old, and I’m not that old Sintel. But unlike those old people who can’t get off the chair, you know, they just sit there all day, staring at a TV and I don’t want to be that person, you know, I want to live to 100. And I want to have energy up until the end. Or it’s not worth it. Right. So yeah. Last night, I was up again. So I know I was active until about nine without really a big drop in energy, which for most people is not a big deal. But when you lose it and you realize something is going on causing it and you need to figure it out.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s good, that’s a good stroll. I mean, it’s, ultimately, I’m looking at some of the notes. And I know like it first and foremost if you’re not sleeping, everything revolves around getting good quality sleep to recharge your battery, it’s like a battery that is a rechargeable battery that you didn’t charge fully the first time around. So every time you put it in use, it never completely fully holds its charge. But when I looked at your initial notes, you know, one of the things you mentioned was that you were trying the keto and that it had impacted you really badly. And I asked you about where you tracking where you’re looking at your numbers. And I think that’s a big lesson for a lot of people because they hear about, hey, maybe keto will make me feel better. I do have a massive sugar craving my blood sugar feels like it goes up and down. And then I feel shaky lightheaded and jittery. And if I don’t have food immediately available, then I’m going to crash. And one of the very first things that we talked about Gus was, Hey, are you actually taking your glucose levels or your ketone levels? And I was surprised that you hadn’t because I think I don’t know so much about malpractice. But if a provider suggests that you try a particular diet, and you don’t look at the dashboard, if you will, like if you’re a pilot and you’re flying a plane, and you’re not looking at your coordinates, how do you know how good of a job you’re doing? So that was one of the first things that do you remember that at all? Or what kind of Amaz you had from that?   Gus Ponstingl: Well, I never went into ketosis. I never once got you to know what I mean? I’d be so your body does a lot of weird things when it gets stuck without sugar. And you’ll notice as you’re winding down, it’s trying it’s like you’re trying to start the car and all it does is a grind and you’re not going to move. So if you know, eight to 12 hours after stopping eating goes by and you have no keto ketones, you know, you’re below love low, you’re just not gonna, you’re gonna feel it, you’re gonna feel horrible. And then you’re going to crave sugar because at least I did. You know, I was craving sugar to try to get the engine started again because the ketones weren’t happening. So, and it wasn’t the lack of trying. I mean, it was months and months and months and months of trying to do that, where it just didn’t seem to be working.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and that’s where it requires, okay, well, it’s good that we’re testing and we’re seeing I’m not getting there. But then it becomes Why am I not getting there. And that’s where the functional approaches or the customization comes into play. And one of the first things we did was do a neutral genomic or DNA test to get some insights as what are some of your potentials that could be creating inflammation, because I look at it as Okay, if you’re having sugar cravings, you’re not putting the logs on the fire, so to speak, like you may be eating a lot of healthy fats. And for some reason, your body is just not transitioning that to cutting the logs and putting them on the fire. And then that would require you to put something like some kindling on the fire hence the need for some kind of sweet something to give you some energy right away. Do you remember at all Guess what some of the initial suggestions were on or the take-homes that you had when we looked at the genetic component? I don’t mean to put you on the spot. But is there anything that stuck out in terms of, Hey, this is what’s going on, potentially in your body that you had no clue about?   Gus Ponstingl: Now, I don’t remember specifics. I was actually away about two years ago. Are you right? Yeah. Yeah. So you came up with some suggestions based on supplements? Right? Again, I’d had a hard time remembering exactly which ones they were. But I noticed, when I took on it, was it just as a feeling of like, Oh, yeah, that fits. You know, it just didn’t feel overwhelming, but it didn’t feel like it felt like it filled a void in my right, my life, or my day or whatever.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so and usually those will be like, based on that some people will email me and or put a comment to a video and say, hey, what supplements do you recommend, and I’m always adamant about I don’t know, because I don’t know you. And I want to make sure that we’re making a customized recovery suggestion. And if you’re not kicking on your ketones on the fire, then perhaps we’re using things like carnitine, or things that will help break down your healthy fats a little bit better. But specifically, Gus, one of the findings that we had on your blood work that was in the middle zone, meaning it wasn’t high from a lab range, but it was high from a healthy range was your iron status, and how your iron is oxidizing? So give us a little Aha, or what you’ve learned about that.   Gus Ponstingl: Right? Well, so I think the response to that was, we started, I started just giving blood, you know, and I gave blood regularly. There are, there are some supplements I learned, I don’t think it was even from you. But I just learned there were some that that can help lower that. And I don’t know if I expect some for a little while. I think curcumin was one of those. But within a very short period of time, it dropped pretty significantly. And, you know, at the same time as I would give blood, I did, I did feel, again, a sense of relief, like it’s this almost like a weight that you were carrying, is that you’re not carrying it anymore. So I think as you’re as I was going through my recovery process, the ongoing changes that we were making seem to constantly help get me a little closer to where I needed to be.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, and so one of the things again, looking at your notes, as one of the things that you were telling me is okay, like, I’m feeling better, like, generally my energy is getting better, but my brain fog is still foggy. And that’s very frustrating for you. So. So then we go a little bit deeper into either new testing or go into reviewing the nutrigenomics. Again, or very important, which I see a lot of practitioners not do. If you’re gonna do a test the first time and implement a strategy, it’s really important to do a test a second time to see how that strategy is working to see if you’re moving the needle in the right way objectively because you want to relate that to subjectively Hey, great, you’re feeling 75% better with your energy, but your brain fog still not working. Right. And that’s what we want to dive into. And one of the things we’ve noticed Gus was some toxic chemicals and exposures. So tell us because we were talking before we got on here today, how you had these all haws with, you know, the chemicals in the environment and how that impacted you as well, to get you to that next level?   Gus Ponstingl: Yeah, well, we talked about mold, which was one of the things that showed up, and whether that was so so I don’t know if this plays into it. But so things like stevia, I don’t know, if we talked about that one. This might be even new. So one of the things I was taking was as a supplement, or not as a supplement, but in it rather than sugar was stevia, you know, and I was adding it to just about everything. And I never heard stevia could cause any side effects. And I was actually getting very, very sore kidneys. As a result of that. I stopped taking it and it was like one of those symptoms that had been cropping up strangely out of the blue or the last year just kind of went down. We’ll probably need to talk about that one more in-depth. But so that was somewhat related to the oxalates. So oxalates are those things that you can eat, they’re kind of little shards, I guess that kind of rub or irritate your, your, your body, your muscles, and things. And so I was working on that because I felt that as well. And I didn’t really feel the withdrawal of the oxalates as much as the stevia, man that was just killing me. So and then in response to that, I think we were looking at maybe having mold issues coming out of that as well. So there’s the possibility that that’s going down. Um, but I’ve been doing, I think my gut issues, they’re still complicated and I know I had like four, three or four things or three or four different levels of it. Their h pylori were one mold. The other one I forgetting anyway, it’s a protozoan or whatever. parasite. Yeah, and then parasite. So you know, like, as you’re working through that, that’s frustrating. And so that’s one of the toughest things I think to have to deal with is, is cleaning up the gut or getting the gut to work, right? And then, yeah, the brain fog stuff as well. So it’s been, it’s been progressing. I feel like things have progressed in that area. But it’s definitely a feeling slower. It’s not as quick. It’s been somewhat frustrating in some ways to you know, you wish you could just take a pill and be finished with it. But, you know, especially since I think it started about 14 years ago.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, you know, you listen, a lot of people listening to this will understand and say, yeah, I’ve had that to where, and I have people that before working together, they’ll tell me, they’re seeing someone, and they’re a GI guy, or they’re seeing someone and they’re a mold person, or they’re seeing someone, their adrenal person. But what they’re missing is the fact that the specialists, even in the functional world, just like the traditional world, tend not to talk to each other. And the body is a generalist. And that’s what I think is really important in terms of, it’s not so much which one do I do first? It’s more. So how do I lower the expenses in the body first, meaning like, if you have inflammation and oxidative stress that is that’s going on, fundamentally, and it’s robbing you of your core minerals and nutrients, then you don’t want to embark on a parasite protocol or heavy metal protocol or whatever protocol until you lower the inflammation per se? That’s why it was so key to get you to understand that component of iron oxidation. One of the other things that we saw, too, that you had, which is a genetic susceptibility, meaning we have to chaperone iron in the body effectively and somewhere along the assembly line, and may not be getting from point A to point B to point C to point D, effectively. And we want to help you get to the widget-making process very helpful before we embark on something else. But something else we talked to you about. And I don’t mean to put you on the spot here as we talked about histamine, and how environmentally debt pets dander is pollen stress, your immune system, alcohol, certain foods. Was there any aha that you had with understanding how histamine was creating that imbalance in your body are creating that inflammation in body? Yeah, you had? Yeah, change around?   Gus Ponstingl: Yeah, I tell you, there’s been a lot of food changes and variations that have helped. That that that seems to have been something that I started to incorporate a couple of years ago as well when we first started kind of keeping Who’s that are allergic to? And I think a lot of the practitioners I’ve worked with even before you had some insight into the allergy testing and stuff like that. So I don’t remember what did we do specifically related to the histamines that I can’t remember I’ll tell you if that seemed to be effective or not. But DA.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I was the supplement for when you eat foods could be one of the main ones that that help with clearing out histamine. And also, just being aware of I mean, iron oxidation and all the oxalate challenges, all of them lead to the histamine highway road as well. So it really depends on what your unique onramps are. So onramps could be stress could be certain foods that are higher in histamine. So fermentable foods can be alcohol, mold will produce a lot of histamines as well. So it’s kind of a combination of everything that we’re talking specifically about a supplement, it probably would have been the DA o supplement. So I don’t know if there was any of those that kind of resonated with you or was just a combination of everything. Gus.   Gus Ponstingl: Yeah, I would say more of a combination. You know,   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. So and then, of course, looking at some of the other things, you’re absolutely right. I mean, we looked at your organic acid test, and there were a lot of really high oxalates. So and you mentioned what those are, they’re basically plant-based compounds. Usually, they’re in spinach or Swiss char or beats, where there are these little crystals that can form in your tissues. And that can create fatigue, mitochondrial issues where it robs you and Kilates your minerals, it can create a lot of pain, a lot of brain fog. I don’t remember was that one of the things that you had a major challenge with musculoskeletal like Fibromyalgia type pains?   Gus Ponstingl: I think I was Yeah, I mean, I think I don’t know if we talked about the kidneys being affected. I think that part of the seminar was going, you know, especially the right side of my body, you know, the arm, the leg, the toes, kind of everything connected to this axis would get sore. And that started. I’m gonna say four years ago, five years ago, where that just kind of grew worse over time, again, going to different practitioners, and a lot of guys out there really don’t seem like so if you go to your, your internet guys like I would call you internet, you’re like a superstar. And you can just tell there’s like the higher game, you know, you’re dealing with a lot of issues in that world where, you know, people are very in tune to what’s going on. But the local guy is, you know, like the local chiropractors and whatnot that I went to really don’t get it. I think, for anybody that’s out there that’s watching this, you got to be careful with, you know, how much you give a local guy that doesn’t have, I don’t know, a broader perspective about what’s going on in the world of, of alternative health stuff. Because I just don’t feel I feel like they kind of lose, they lose the edge, they’re not really keeping in touch with what’s going on cutting edge stuff, or, or the general philosophy about how, how all this stuff is connected. You know, I think they’ll get there. But it’s just, there’s a learning curve, and everybody’s kind of learning. And so it takes a while for it to diffuse to the broader population. So a lot of the issues I was I was trying to deal with, with local guys, I really felt like you just got nowhere, you know, how to take this supplement. And, you know, you just know immediately if it would work or not, you know like nothing would happen. You’re like, yeah, that guy just was guessing, you know?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Well, I mean, it speaks to you too, though. And I think that’s important. I mean, what we’re talking about is complicated stuff. Like, I always am amazed that the people that I see that seek out not the local provider, but say the internet person, they’re on their game, I remember a mentor of mine told me like, if you’re gonna play at this level, you got to know your stuff, because your clients are gonna know their stuff better than you, you’re gonna know their stuff. And I didn’t want to be that doctor, that so many people that I see, tell me I knew more about, you know, my body than the doctor did. And that happens a lot. So, you know, kudos to you for knowing like, the other day, like, literally, you did make me get goosebumps when you told me like, it’s, it’s so rewarding to be able to, you know, go on the bike ride with my daughter, and it’s so rewarding to be able to do these things. So kudos to you for having the perseverance and the skill set to apply and implement what we recommended. So a lot of the questions we get too, though, is sometimes it can be cumbersome or daunting, because you have to have a special diet, you’re on 1001 different supplements, you’re you know, tell me about that aspect? How did you manage to be a father of five like I always joke around, I know, I was on the call while you’re burnt out and tired. You don’t have to tell me any more? You got five kids. Right? So but how did you manage to be a working dad, a spouse? a, you know, someone that has health challenges? And has all these different things? Yeah, how did you manage that?   Gus Ponstingl: Oh, it just so your audience does. I turned 52 this past March, so I’ve no spring chicken either. And I started late in life. So a lot of what I wanted in life, I kind of had put off. And so I didn’t get married until I was like 36. And so having five kids in a really short period of time, you know, I think it was under it was under 10 years. So but seven, eight years. And you know, one of my goals is just to be there for you know what I mean and to raise them so that they’re healthy, productive individuals in the world. And so I’ve had a strong background. My background is actually I was pre-med as an undergrad. So I was in the medical school system in St. Louis. And then I didn’t go I ended up not going to medical school. And but I always had a passion for nutritional type stuff. And that really grew once the internet came along. So I was pre-internet, you know, a lot of my early education was before the internet. But as I started learning about alternative health, I really got excited about health again, you know, whereas medicine I could tell, and this is I think we haven’t really even talked about the medical providers out there, which, you know, honestly, I still don’t think maybe it was about 5% of the problems in the world. You know, they just throw drugs at symptoms and forget whatever else is going on. So if anybody’s out there trying to figure out if they should get into alternative health, I’d say, you know, definitely, the more you can abandon your medical doctor, this is me saying I’m not sure But the more you get a ban in your medical doctor, the better because it sort of forces you to solve problems, and really solve it. Because if you don’t get better with alternative health, you’re going to not feel different because you’re not going to treat that symptom. And so that was one thing that I and I still really believe that you know like I really have to stay on. It’s kind of like an exercise program, you just have to do it regularly. If you want to stay healthy, you got to keep looking for what’s going on in your world and your health. So that was one of my underlying philosophies. And that’s why I’m a little bit I’m probably not the easiest patient to have, because I’m a bit of a biohacker, you know, I mean, I’ll just kind of give me this, and then I’ll try that, you know, like, I’ll just kind of veer off the path really quick, because I hear some I heard something was good. But I really feel like you gotta listen to people who know what they’re doing that they have insights, bigger, bigger exposures, and it’s complicated. It’s a complicated world, to understand all the things that can affect your health, and that without seeing that bigger picture, and then going in on the small things, you’re just not going to make progress. And so yeah, and I still feel like, and I think budget is a big part of it, I really wish more of the tests were, you know, like, it would be so nice if you didn’t have to fork over a couple $1,000 to get, you know, like everything you need, and be able to do that more often. So I’m hoping that changes more in the future as well because I feel like that’s one thing that holds people back. I remember one of my first. Yeah, one of the first guys that were locked. It was long before I talked to you. But I’d reached out to somebody else. And I think I was looking at about $6,000 for the test. And I didn’t have the money. You know, I’m young, well, I’m not so young. But I’m a dad that has a bunch of young kids, I don’t have a ton of savings, I can’t afford that much money, you know, and it wasn’t like I could do this one or this one, I had to do law. And so I ended up going with somebody else because they were willing to do more piecemeal testing. And, again, I don’t know if that was a good idea or not, but it just was all I could do. You know. So that’s one of their frustrations, I think is that the world of testing still hasn’t gotten to the point where it’s, it’s super affordable. Yeah, although I think it’s getting more affordable, I think they’re getting a better test for the same price. But it would be nice to see that. You know.   Dr. Joel Rosen: A couple of great things you said there, and I just want to repeat them. The first one is, you no one’s gonna care as much about you getting healthy as you write. So you’re gonna have to be your best advocate. And a lot of the clients that are potentially exhausted and, and strapped because they can’t work at full capacity, or they’ve already spent a lot of money, or they have five kids or all of the above, they go to their primary doctor, and they want their doctor to give them more than 1015 minutes. So they’ve had to, you know, do the searching on their own. So it becomes a bit of a catch 22. But you do have to be your biggest advocate, I do agree with you, I think it is getting better in terms of the traditional approaches, or the allopathic medicine, or how much money you spend on health care for your insurance every month should cover more of the fundamental testing. So I do see that happen. I do see that improving. I always like to know, though, like because I want the clients that we work with to think of it as an investment. Right? I mean, you really do have to think of it as an investment in terms of well, first and foremost, how much is it costing you to be back? I think a lot of people don’t Oops, sorry, I forgot. I think a lot of people don’t realize that. Sorry, I don’t know which one I’m on, I need to plug in my computer because it’s going to die on me here. But I want to make sure I know which one I’m plugging in here. Alright. So I think that a person has to figure out how much is truly impacting me financially like if I can’t work a full day if I can’t advance if I have to miss days if I have to turn down projects, there’s a cost there. If I have to, you know, they take 300 or $400 out of my paycheck to pay for my insurance, there’s a cost there. There’s a cost in terms of the testing that your co-payments or your supplements. So I really always want someone to have those smelling salts under their nose in terms of how much even though you’re going to see your primary and most of that is covered. What what’s the impact on you financially? Right. So what made you made that decision? would you say that there has been a return in terms of if you have a higher quality of health, that you can do more projects as an architect or you could tell me about that aspect?   Gus Ponstingl: Well, this year was different in that I think we hit we hit some financial goals that were really helpful to hit. You know, I had an I had a new business that in the last eight years or 10 years I’ve started two new businesses. So whenever you start a business, you pretty much go back to barely making it, you know, and it wasn’t, it wasn’t a big choice to second to start the second business, it sort of had to happen. And so that reset kind of hit maturity about last year. And so I’m at that stage where I decided to invest in feeling better, because, you know, like you said, If I’m not healthy, it doesn’t matter, I’m not going to be doing the work, or I’m not gonna be doing a good job anyway. And again, if I can work another 1520 years, which is, that’s my goal is probably working to my abs, I would, I’ve got the kind of business where I can continue to do that. But if I’m not healthy enough to do it, then that’s a big loss. And so it’s better to spend the time and energy now and figure out what’s wrong and get on on a better track. Absolutely. Then to suffer through. Or if you go the medical route, odds are you’re going to live a very short life and be very sick. I’ve seen my friends die. I’ve seen friends die going to doctors getting pills, pills, pills, pills, pills, you know, and they’re not with me anymore. You know. So it’s sad to see that. You know, and I warned him I tried to warn.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah, you know, I used to do in-office workshops. And I remember a mentor of mine had a really great soundbite that I would always use and like, Okay, well, you get insurance, and insurance is covered. And if it’s not covered, I can’t see you. And that’s like saying, Well, imagine you had like a diner pass to a restaurant that it was paid for. But every time you went, it may just stick like that, just because it’s covered doesn’t mean that you should go and do it anyway. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But today, though, I feel that people do want to make that investment and have made that investment. But then they were left with no results, right? Because they, you know, so how, I don’t know, just from your side of you alluded to it earlier, how do they avoid that, like, Okay, I’m willing to spend, but I’ve done four doctors and no one’s going.   Gus Ponstingl: But I’ve been telling people I know, especially those that are already investing in testing and other things. I’ve been telling them to just bring your tests and call you, you know, like, it started with somebody that can piece the pieces together, you know, like, maybe they’re missing a test or two, but they can start and I think that’s what I did with you is I just kind of brought a lot of the tests I had, and you’ve got a ton of them there. And you can kind of look back over time going well, this issue was already, you know, already 10 years ago, as opposed to you know, so that’s helpful. And I think it’s a good way for people to get started with a little better care, you know, but again, that’s no knock the on the alternative world out there. It’s just, it’s just really, I don’t think there’s any cohesive sort of like, okay, we’re all on, you know, the same team, everybody’s kind of working towards maybe understanding these things. And that’s why I like the internet doctors, you know, the YouTube doctors are like, they’re in this world were that the ideas are flying fast. I mean, it’s amazing how a new idea will spread through this culture. And we seem to go, okay, that works. That doesn’t work, or let’s change this. Let’s add this. And I really am. I’ve seen a lot of changes over the last 10 years, a lot of changes.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, those are great points, in terms of a lot of the clients that I can give them the best insight on is it’s there in, in plain eyesight from their old test that they didn’t get told about. And that’s a shame, because like for you, again, it’s not always about high iron. But if your iron isn’t moving, and for example, if your irons 255, your ferritin is 255. And on the lab range, it shows 30 to 390, you’re being told as normal, but if you know we don’t like to see with new research, it is above 75. A lot of doctors don’t have that on their radar. And I can look at a test in 216 that you showed me and it shows 270 and that’s high. And that’s something you can do right away. So those are the things that I would urge other people looking for support is having someone really go through your past bloodwork from a healthy range because you’ll probably see some outliers. I’ll give you an example. One time I had a client who was really sick, and I asked her she had hepatitis antibodies, and I asked them about them, you know, what did the doctor say? Cuz I comb through all their blood work and like, like, What did they say about this? And like, they didn’t say anything about it. And then I asked him, we’ll go ask them what they say about that. And they said, Oh, it’s past. It’s a past exposure. And because it’s a, it’s a, what they think of as I GG, which I GG antibody is typically assumed to be a past exposure. But new research shows that if they’re extremely high, like three times the range, those past exposures can reactivate. So anyway, bottom line is, is that one of the ways that a person could hack their way into seeing some outliers that can make huge differences so that the skepticism of investing in a new doc and doesn’t have to be me, but a new doctor that can give them some insights right away, have them go through your past bloodwork and see if there’s anything there that can move the needle based on what they thought of as iron, I assume iron until proven otherwise, for sure. So that’s a really important point that that you mentioned, I think for sure, and also being an advocate. So now let’s tell us maybe like fast forward to where we are. Now, you did mention you have more energy, but what are some of the other things that you’re noticing that maybe, you know, may have taken, you took for granted, you say like, oh, I forgot that I wasn’t sleeping, it’s funny.   Gus Ponstingl: Well, this morning, as a great example of this morning, seven o’clock rolled around, and I do have an alarm set. But I can’t tell you how many times I’m working when that alarm goes off. And I just have to turn it off, because I’m already been awake for an hour or two. But even in the last week or so it’s improving such that I’m starting to bump into that alarm in bed, I’m in that I’m in bed, either sleeping, or I’m just not awake yet. And it goes off and I’m like, that’s different. You know, like, I’m actually I’m, I’m just grateful to be still sleeping in bed at that time. And I noticed that shifts to just having a long day. So I’m not exhausted. And anymore, it used to be four, but I mean, originally used to be four, and then I’d say over the last three, four months, it shifted gradually to seven or eight, and now it’s getting closer to nine. So it’s like my days getting longer. And that just opens up all kinds of things. Because you know, when you get home from work, or you’re done with work, there’s still a lot of time left to invest in the kids, you know, or the family. And, you know, they can get robbed of all that. So I’ve been just in the last few weeks taking. So my son’s taking basketball and going up with him. And I’m not ready to coach or anything. I want to just hang out with the guys while they’re playing basketball. Or I took my daughter on a couple of bike rides here in the last few weeks or last week or so. And, and she would go on one every day, I think if I check her jogging more, so the physical activity is certainly there. And I feel like I’m starting to again, I was plateaued or stuck at a certain weight range. And I feel like that’s kind of going down a little bit as well, a little easier to get some of that weight off. So, and I’m not overweight, but I just wanted to drop about five to 10, maybe 10 pounds, but mostly five. But yeah, just because you’re kind of stuck in that metabolic you know, almost a metabolic frozen state where your body will not, you know, burn its own barriers.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, those are good results. You know, the other thing too, I just have to I just got reminded of like, we had a little I won’t say a crisis call but there was not too long ago where, you know, with elections and internet and you were just being you run ragged with your thought process. And I think lifestyle-wise I encouraging you Okay, we need to contain how many variables were processing solar, any, any Aha, you had with that?   Gus Ponstingl: Big ones very well. And so stress has a huge impact on your ability to I don’t know if it’s too if your metabolic activity or your body’s ability to sort of switch into another state. So and I’m no expert in the parasympathetic nervous system or the sympathetic nervous system, but I was having I thought heart issues for about a month or two. And I went to a guy here in town, he does a little heart jack, and he’s like, it’s fine. Like, it just doesn’t feel right. And I wasn’t sleeping very well at all. And so my pulse was really high, kind of intermittently high. And with COVID around. I mean, there’s just a lot of stuff you could blame on COVID, but I’m not sure it was COVID. And when one of the guys, one of the guys there’s another internet guy that just talked about how to how to relax and lower your pulse, and it was a breathing exercise. So I decided to give up all news like 100% and it must have been a month or two I did no news. And then I started doing these actually one night I started doing a breathing exercise. I fell asleep during the exercise. And I didn’t wake up until say let’s say six in the morning, and I hadn’t slept in a few weeks and it was just amazing. And I repeated that Night after night, and that’s still a good habit for me is when I feel like my chest is tight, or I’m like, you know, I’m not thinking, well, I just start breathing, you know, purposefully, you know, I think they do it the forced square where you breathe in for four seconds, hold it for four seconds, breathe out for four, hold it for four. And it really does help calm me down. So you could probably talk more about the parasympathetic.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, that’s awesome that like, you know, like, I think probably more so than anything was shutting off the news, because it’s just, it’s over. It’s, it’s sensational. And it’s designed to, you know, get peep viewers to watch it. And that by I mean, there’s a whole slippery slope there in terms of who owns the new station and the biased information that, but it’s polarizing, especially in today’s day and age. And if you’re a kid,   Gus Ponstingl: There’s no shock absorber out there. So like, you know, the news happens so fast. So it’s like, you’re literally in the middle of a battle, and the bullets are flying everywhere. And so if you just, if you get away from it, you know, maybe that maybe the war is going on, you’ll hear about something that you don’t have to be involved in every skirmish,   Dr. Joel Rosen: Which is, yeah, that’s a good point. But I think also to the proactive and the synergistic. It’s not just one thing, it’s everything. It’s your ability to identify foods that contribute to your oxalate levels and to be able to lower your ferritin and your iron and to be able to make sure that you’re supporting histamine levels, and to turn off the news and to breathe better and to get involved with your daughter’s activities. I mean, it’s not one of them, Gus, it’s all of them. And I think success leaves clues. And that’s why you’re seeing such important improvements in your health. And I’m sure you would say like, it’s not, it’s not like, okay, I fixed it. And that’s it. That’s all now it’s a verb, right? I mean, speak maybe a little bit of that, like how now it’s like, you always just got to know yourself and where your finger on the pulse and make sure that you’re keeping an eye on the dashboard, right?   Gus Ponstingl: Yeah. And, and that’s why, you know, meeting regularly with you, or a practitioner is really helpful. I’m going test, you know, goals, keeping those in mind. I think it’s good at some point, maybe I would have, you know, the better you feel, maybe the more regular you get, but if you get if I get out of that rhythm or something happens, I definitely want to up my game again. So yeah, I would say keeping healthy is a lot of things, a lot of good disciplines, you know, whether it’s eating a certain way or, or like you were saying about the breathing, the news, your hat, your hobbies, the stress in your world, all that goes into it. Yeah, it’s tough to have all of the things clicking at the same time, but you got to work towards that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And you got to know like, you have tools in your toolkit even I will. I mean, I’ve suffered from my own exhaustion and fatigue, and I have iron issues. And if I’m not careful with if I’m eating too much protein and too many iron-based foods, if I’m watching too much news, if I’m staying up too late, even I’ll have my crashes. And then sometimes we forget, we see that next shiny object, and we want to employ that and we forget the basics and what we need to do to get to where we got to and we forgot to, we took it for granted and we’re human and but as long as now you have a skill set of tools, and when to use them and when not to use them. I think that’s really what the teaching of healthcare is should be in terms of know your body, know your stressors, know your weak links, and constantly tweak it so that you’re walking that fine line, and you’re in that Goldilocks zone of not too little, not too much. And that’s really what takes the time to figure out but I think you’ve done a great job with that. Now Yeah, yeah, no, no, that’s I mean, listen, I always tell people I’m like it’s me being a soundboard for you so that you can kind of hear yourself think and answer your own questions. There was a movie that was one of my favorite movies out there is called Mumford. I don’t know if you ever saw it, but this guy was a psychologist, but he really wasn’t a psychologist. He was a fraud. And they found him on like FBI is like not most wanted, but he was like one of those guys and he was such an amazing psychologist even though I didn’t have the training and the reason why he was is that he just kind of let the person talk and no movie so any last words like I know if someone’s skeptical of you know, making that next decision of working not just with me, but a practitioner in general. Any words You would help get them over the hump if they didn’t feel they can get better, or they tried everything, and nothing works, or it’s too much money or all of the above excuses, what would you say to them,   Gus Ponstingl: You know, you do have to eventually, you know, kind of face the music, like it, could get worse, you know, like, sometimes the biggest motivation is that you know, like, not doing something is a penalty you do you do suffer like I, I could feel that sort of the time was winding shorter, you know like I was doing worse, and I had that feeling of like, if I don’t change, I could say die early, but I think that’s really what it was coming down to. And so, I would say it’s the carrot or the stick, you know, and to me, sometimes the stick has a pretty good motivation, you know, like, I gotta do something, you know. And at some point, I had to take a chance with somebody, you know, I can’t just do something and, you know, there’s not on the internet world, it’s fun. You can, you can do a lot of pre interviewing people. By watching videos, you know, or if you know, somebody, you can’t do that so much in the real world with, I would say the real world but your locals, you know, with chiropractors, and, you know, Functional Diagnostic people, you hear word of mouth, but it’s tough. But I would say, you know, don’t wait too long, you know, do something before it’s too late.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, No decision is still a decision. I agree with you 100%. And I think also to like, just take that first step, you know, all these analogies, like, you eat a bite an elephant, one bite at a time, or, you know, like, make that first step. Because ultimately, when the student is ready, the teacher will appear. And I think that rings true with you, in terms of you. Seeing people that took you only so far, and you didn’t make the decision of this isn’t gonna work for me, or life’s not fair or nothing ever, you know, works in my favor. And whatever decision to not make a decision is you knew like, okay, like, I have five kids, and I have a lot of second half of my life to live here. And it’s worth it. So I think there’s a lot of success in my healthy recovery clients is, those are the consistent things that I see. And that’s the glue. That’s not you’re not gonna find that in the supplement bottle. Right? What supplement bottle do you have that gives you that? Do you know? Yeah. And then there are none. So that’s good. Yeah, no, listen, I appreciate your time. Again, it truly is rewarding for me, as a provider, to have someone have these impacts on their life. Because of the quality of life, there’s, I mean, there really is no value you can place on that even though you can place on how much it costs to not be healthy. You can’t really put a value on like, what’s the return of investment on you having to work into your 80s and to be able to have a full day and to be able to know like your daughter wants to continue to ride her bike with you and stuff. I mean, there’s just no there’s no value on that. So yeah, thank you so much, guys. I appreciate your time. And hopefully, this encourages whoever’s listening to take that next step for themselves. And again, not with me but with someone so that you can get your health back. I appreciate the time that you gave us today.   The post Healing Adrenal Fatigue Over The Internet appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. I’m joined here with my co-host, Becky roux, who is a moderator and administrator, and creator of the G six PD deficiency support group on Facebook, who suffered from G six PD herself. And now she is developing protocols and research-based information to educate those that need the support. And she’s here to co-host with real special privilege guests that we have with us today. We’ve interviewed Bob several times. But Bob is the leading edge of healthcare and the way it’s practiced in the year 2021. He is a traditional naturopath, he specializes in genetic-specific nutrition. He opened his Tree of Life practice and has served as a traditional naturopath for 25 years. And for the past several years, he’s been engaged exclusively in nutrient nutritional genetic variations and related research, specializing in nutritional support for those with chronic Lyme. And I think that needs obviously to be updated because he specializes in people that just are having huge, huge health challenges. And the research that he’s doing is going to enlighten the listener for today’s topic on G six PD. So, Bob, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate you being here today.   Dr. Bob Miller: It’s an honor always a privilege to be with you Dr. Rosen night. And I appreciate all the work you did to help out understand people, their adrenal fatigue and so many things. I know you’re reaching out to a lot of folks for a lot of good work. So congratulations on all you do as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, well, thank you so much. And it’s all because of the information that I listened to over and over again about what you’re teaching. And I think the listeners are going to get such an amazing piece of the puzzle that they’re not getting because g six PD issues are looked at, as you explain in a way where it’s a genetic thing, hey, do you have the gene? If you do, then oops, you’re in trouble. And that’s it. That’s all vs. There’s a functional genomic nutrition approach. And that’s really what we’re going to get into today. So how do you want to begin with this?   Dr. Bob Miller: Okay, well, firstly, maybe we ought to do just a little bit of genomic one on one and some of the people may not understand, we’re going to be talking about it, we’ll do this very briefly. Firstly, you know, what a miracle we are weed, fats, carbohydrates, proteins, we drink water, breathe air and expose the sunlight. And everything gets made. I mean, every time I say that I sit back. And I think, wow, that’s astonishing. And the reason that happens is that enzymes, take one substance, combine it with something else and make something new, that another enzyme comes along combines that with something, make something new. And that just goes on and on and on. Your DNA is instructions on how to make the enzymes. So when you hear about the word mutation, or snip or defect, whatever term you want to do, I like to just say major and minor, because I like to say anything is defective, when you have that minor allele, that enzyme production may not be as robust as it should be. So, therefore, the production of one substance to another just may not be as good as it should be. And what we look at from a functional genomic standpoint, is how this can be affecting function. You know, I am not been trained or neither am I a geneticist. I mean, geneticists look at, you know, genes are released to disease, we just look at genetics, health has the potential and let me say keyword potential to impact function. Because just because you have a mutation, that doesn’t mean for sure something’s happening. But I like to train doctors and say, when you see mutations, it’s something like waving at you like think about looking here. So what we do at functional genomic analysis, is, again, we don’t look at disease states we don’t look at if you’re going to get a disease, we look at me to be making a little too many free radicals may not be making enough in I oxidants, might some of your detox pathways be less than robust as they should be? Are some of your nutrient transports not as robust? And then there’s a couple of things you can do. If you’re not making enough of something where you can give someone that if the enzymes maybe not at full force, there are nutrients that actually support an enzyme along and if it’s detox, there are ways to support the clearing of the toxins, all goes back to that traditional naturopathic philosophy, the one from a long time ago, that it’s the terrain and you know, on bond, Antoine Bishop was the guy who said to Louis pass tour. Yeah, there are germs but I think it’s the environment that allows the germ to thrive. So Louis passed tour was Let’s kill the germ. Antoine Duchamp said, Let’s change the environment that allows the germ to live there. So that’s the two sides and of course, you know, they both argued I guess, but the bottom line is they were both correct. We don’t argue we don’t need to argue who’s correct. Everybody is. So we need to clean up the terrain. And unfortunately, you know, I’m 66, and I’m living in a world that I wasn’t born into. When I was a kid, we didn’t have growth hormones given to the animals. We had glass, not plastic. glyphosate wasn’t around yet, cell phones weren’t around yet. genetically modified foods weren’t around yet. So I believe what we’re doing is we are just creating a very toxic environment that we’re living in. And all of us are being impacted. But for those who have a little bit of genetic weakness, in their ability to create antioxidants or detox pathways, they’re the proverbial canary in the mine that are being hurt the most. So many of these mutations that we have, I often believe that I see people that they’re really sick, and I think, Gee, I wonder if they would have been born 50 years ago, they might not even have a problem. So you know, the adage of the vet genetics, loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger. And I think we’ve we’re gonna look back someday, with a lot of oops a lot of things that we’ve done. Same, like, we look back on his best, you know, we all meant, well, hey, houses won’t burn down, people won’t die of fire. Oops, you know, all let’s put some lead in the gas, it doesn’t knock as bad. Oops, let’s put some lead in the paint that makes the paint more effective. Oops. And I think we’re going to continue to have many, many more of those. As, as time goes on, and those who have genetic weakness, as I said, are the proverbial canary in the mines. So that’s the background of what we’re going to talk about today.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that so when you say the word potential, though, it really minimizes what actually is going on Bob, because you mentioned like, you’re fascinated by the fact that we can take food and different kinds of foods and create reactions and do so many things. And so I think we need to explain the fact that it’s not just the potential that this gene makes this enzyme that does this function, but it’s also knowing how it plays nice with the environment, and what nutrients are needed to be able to make it work properly, and what things can slow it down. And not only that, but then what’s above it, what’s below it, what’s 3d, what’s diagonal, and understanding all those relationships so that when you do use the word potential, and you are implementing a customized recovery strategy, those potentials add up to have effective results because you’re capitalizing or it’s that enzymatic reaction of one plus one plus one equals 12 or 15, or 20. In your outcomes for sure. So why don’t we go down that rabbit hole as it relates to what uses up NADPH? And how does that get Reese? Reese stimulated almost like a forward feeling forward feeding mechanism where it just it’s it’s in a vicious cycle of just going over and over again, and how that relates to a G six PD person that would be even concerned about that.   Dr. Bob Miller: Sure. Well, let’s first talk about NADPH. And as you know, I’ve been intrigued by NADPH for years. No, you’ve got your ad, your ad plus your NADPH. There’s there are several of them. And by the way, if anyone’s a health professional listening to this, we do have an online certification course we have a whole module on an ad NADPH. And we show that, but we’ll just cut right to the chase. I’m sure many people have heard, you know, talks about the importance of FTD. So if you start studying in a deep, you’ll learn how important this is. Because Firstly, it goes down to Oh, it goes up to NADH, which is at the top of the respiratory training the electron transport for energy. Then an ad also supports the PARP enzymes, which is your DNA repair. So when your cells get damaged, the PARP enzymes need an ad to repair your cells when they’re damaged. Then NAD also feeds what is called the search warrants, which are responsible, they’re part of your anti-aging, and they’re responsible for making your S od and your catalyst. Interestingly, there’s a process called m Tour, which is the growth of new cells, a toughie G, the cleaning of the cells. And interestingly, NAD stimulates some of the search ones that slow down mtorr and speed up autophagy m Tor being the growth of new cells. And of course, if we didn’t have that the sperm and the egg would never become the baby. The baby never becomes an adult. But if that M tour is running too fast, that can lead to inflammation. quick side note COVID-19 uses mtorr for replication. So it’s important we have this balance between Am torn a toffee G. But then that NAD also becomes NADPH. And that’s where I’m very intrigued. And there’s a lot of genes that are involved that make the enzymes that turn the firstly make an ad, then there are enzymes that turn in AD into NADH for energy. And there are other genes to turn an ad into NADPH. So let’s now focus on NADPH. It does a lot. Okay. One of the major things we’re going to talk about is how it’s involved in your detoxification of not only free radicals but all the poisons inside the body. So if I can, can I do a screen share here? Oh, yes, abs, please do. Yep. All right, let me do a screen share. That adage, a picture is worth 1000 words here. So. So, again, let’s go back to the naturopathic philosophy, what breaks us down is inflammation. Now, just in case anybody needs to know, everything’s made out of atoms. So you got the neutron-proton and the electron that spins. And that needs to be electrically balanced. A free radical is when one of those electrons gets ripped off. antioxidants have a spare electron. And I oxidants, neutralize free radicals fairly simple. So qualify own is one of our most important antioxidants. It’s called lithium, or reducible to ion when it’s ready to go. Interestingly, it’s made from cysteine, glycine, and glutamate. These three things go together, these little purple ovals here are enzymes. So these enzymes take the cysteine. Bring it down into white glue says, the GSS gene takes the glycine in this to make lithium. So many people are aware of this, they even supplement with glutathione and then glutathione well through what’s called glue found conjugation. Take out toxins, anything toxic in the body, particularly even things like mold. Well, after it does its job, it becomes oxidized down here. So that means it’s given away its electron. Now we need NADPH to take this oxidized qualify back to the reduced. So if we don’t have enough NADPH, your oxidized glutathione doesn’t just sit here. No, it does more. It combines with oxygen to makes what’s called superoxide. Then it combines with nitric oxide, which is a very important gas that we need for circulation. And it makes Ono peroxynitrite. Which is a very oxidizing agent that, ironically will deplete your Bluetooth ion and start damaging your DNA. So that’s why I’m such a fan, of NADPH. Now what can happen then, is you can have mutations on this GSR enzyme. And this is a pattern that our research is showing continually. We just finished our ninth study on Lyme disease. And perhaps when that’s all finished, we can come back and talk about that. But the bottom line is is that there are more mutations in the GSR enzyme in those with chronic Lyme. I think we’re gonna find the same thing. When we look at mycotoxin toxicity. But GSR is controlled by nerfing two. And nerf two is controlled by keeping one. This is the 3d chess game played underwater. So you can have mutations in keep one that is too strong. Because what keeps one does it holds on to nerf two and releases it. So when you’ve got mutations in keep one, some mutations make it stronger, hold on more tightly than if you got mutations in to nerf two that make it weaker. Then you’ve got mutations in GSR that make that weaker. And then if you have mutations that you don’t make enough NADPH like g six PD and there’s more than making NADPH but g six PD makes your NADPH you’ve got the proverbial perfect storm that is oxidized glutathione found doesn’t go back to reduce, that’d be a topic for another time would be talking about the A tox one enzyme, this is where we put copper on the S od and that just amplifies the problem. So here you can see that if we don’t have enough NADPH we’re going to have some serious problems taking this oxidized glutathione back to reduction. Now I was I spoke speak to a lot of functional medicine doctors. And many of they’re saying you know what, Bob? I am noticing that many in the functional medicine world used to give people go to find With good results, they’re having more and more times than they have bad results. So why would that be? Because you would tend to think well, good if I own the master antioxidant, neutralizes your peroxidases take out your toxins, how could that be bad for you? I’ve had many people said their, their health provider just yelled at them. You’re just a hypochondriac, you must be making this up. You can’t be responding poorly to lithium. Well, if you don’t take this oxidized glue found back to the reduced taking glue found too quickly, actually creates inflammation and reduces your solidify. Oh. So what I’m teaching doctors now when they do functional genomics, is that you really got to look first. Do you have trouble with keeping one nerf two GSR or NADPH g six PD mutations being one of them, that you’re not going to take your oxidized lithium-ion back to reduced? So you can have genetic issues that you don’t make enough NTD and NADPH. But one of the things that we’ve been talking about for a long time is the phrase I’ve coined and that’s the NADPH steel. I am really intrigued by NADPH. And the reason I am is that NADPH which comes from G six PD is a cofactor for the nos enzyme to make nitric oxide. This won a Nobel Prize for its relationship to circulation. It helps recycle Gouda through dioxin, which is another important you know oxidant that clears the peroxidases we spoke about glutathione it also puts the are on your older iron from him into ferritin turns your heme into biliverdin if needed to turn him into carbon monoxide to stimulate nerf to NADPH has a lot of roles. But this is what really fascinated me. And that is that NADPH does all these good things. However, there’s a fascinating enzyme called NOx NADPH oxidase fascinating enzyme. And this is part of our immune system. So what happens here is when we are faced with a pathogen, I mean what a miracle the body is, when it sees a pathogen, it says Whoops, you don’t belong here, we need to take you out. This is kind of like our military. And it says Red Alert, Euston, we got a problem we got a foreign invader, we got to take somebody out. So it takes oxygen from iron, an electron from NADPH makes superoxide and hydrogen peroxide, mast cells histamine, the war is on. Okay, the battle has begun. We’re going to take out this bad boy. And if we didn’t have this, we dive into an infection. I mean, this is a critical part of who we are and how we protect ourselves. However, I believe what’s happening is that many environmental factors, that again, we weren’t exposed to 50 to 75 years ago, are overstimulating the Knox enzyme, overusing NADPH. Consequently, when we use it here, we don’t have it for all of these good things. Now, I’ve not seen any literature on this. So let me just say, this is the bob Miller hypothesis. And that is there’s incredible wisdom in the body. So we tend to think of free radicals as bad. And I oxidants is good, for the most part true. But we do need free radicals to fight those battles. So if we didn’t have free radicals, we wouldn’t survive. But the problem becomes when the free radicals become excessive. So I think we were designed that when the battle goes on, it would make total sense that you temporarily stop your antioxidant activity to allow the free radicals to do their thing. But if this is chronic, driven by environmental factors, this NADPH is used up. Now talk about a perfect storm. If you’ve got g six PD or other things that limit your NADPH and you’ve got the NOx enzyme upregulated. These are the people that have chronic inflammation. They’ve got all kinds of histamine problems. They’ve got mast cell problems. You know, I find it interesting when I do seminars. Now I’ll ask how many of you doctors have taught more than 20 years? And I’ll say how many of you saw mast cell problems 20 years ago, and it’s like, we didn’t see how many of you are seeing mast cell problems. Now it’s like, oh my gosh, so many people have mast cell activation syndrome. So these mast cells are our friends. You know, they’re designed to fight the battle. But I believe environmental factors are overstimulating them. And that’s why we’re seeing so much adrenal fatigue, because we need cortisol, to knock down the histamine, which is made by your adrenals. So if you’re constantly making all this histamine, you’re going to wear out your God. There are many things on the adrenals. But this is one of the ways you can wear out your adrenals by desperately trying to fight this histamine battle. And I just see in my health coaching, probably 80% of the people I talked to have high histamine. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg. And then if you have difficulty, it’s beyond our scope today. But if you have difficulty with histone and methyltransferase, diamine oxidase enzyme glucuronidation, it gets worse. And I think you’ll find this chart fast and fun. Have you seen this one? But if we don’t clear our histamine, it’ll stimulate interleukin six, the cytokine that stimulates the mast cells, and we’ve got a loop that just goes around here. And then the interleukin six makes more superoxide makes more peroxynitrite. We need cloudy on to deal with that. And if we’ve had g six PD deficiencies, and we don’t have enough NADPH, we don’t have enough codifier. Then what we’ve described as the home cycle, is when superoxide, mast cells, and histamine stimulate the renin enzymes to make more angiotensin, two more interleukins six, and another Merrick around that we’re on here. And we just see this happening so often. So if we look at a chart here, I can actually show you where the G six PD is involved in making the NADPH. So it’s the pentose phosphate pathway, where glucose comes down with ATP. And then we make the NADPH. And then that will support the production. You also have one enzyme that makes NADPH. And then you also have the de novo pathway, where we make the NAD. And we talked about that how that supports PARP, of how that supports the sirtuins that make many of your antioxidants. And then also another pathway down to NADPH. So that’s, you know, why we need NADPH. And there are many other functions it’s used for. And I believe that environmental factors are using it up. And then if someone has a genetic weakness, they’re more prone to either less production or more of it being used up.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so so you know, the whole thing I think about again, was the intro of what you just mentioned, in terms of the potentials and then looking at the pathways, if you can do me a quick favor Bob and just scroll it so you can see the whole diagram like with everything that’s involved in what you just described, so you can kind of bring up Okay, so how, how almost everything fits on the screen, so you can see Yes, so here are all the pathways we’re looking at. And ultimately, we are working to understand how this is influencing people that are feeling awful. In this case with G six PD people, they’re exhausted, they’re tired, they have hemolytic events where they’re their glue defiance depleted, and their red blood cells burst and they get fatigued. But it’s so in my opinion, and again, Joel Rosen opinion is it’s so outdated in terms of well, looking at the diagram we just said, and saying g six PD is one of the ways that make the NADPH and beautify on Pertex, the red blood cells and when Gouda finds depleted, the NADPH doesn’t come back around to help support the Reaper, the Reaper protection, but glutamine ion and NADPH involve the entire diagram he just showed. And so it brings us a whole new way of looking at how do we support this? How do we because it’s overwhelming? If you look at it, it’s like okay, it said all that now, what do I do about it? How do I dial this down? So what I would ask you, Bob is when you get these potentials and you see these pathways and you understand the NADPH steel, and how the environment impacts that and what the what that 30,000 view foot impact would be on The individual that gets hit the hardest, which is pretty much going to be the same as they’re tired, they’re exhausted, they have no energy, they’re not doing things they would love to be doing. What do you do about it with your, with your coaching clients in terms of Okay, now, it’s just a general question, Bob, in terms of how can we modulate this? How can we slow that home cycle down and NADPH cycle down?   Dr. Bob Miller: Sure. Well, one of my favorite sayings is we’ve got to get away from protocols and pills for the ill. Because everyone’s unique. So you could see 10 people in a row with similar conditions, but 10 different ways they got there. So that’s one of my favorite things, we’ve got to say that, you know, we don’t look at the book, oh, this is the protocol that I do for that. I think we’re gonna look back on that as being naive and somewhat outdated. We’ve got to do things personally, for the person. So I think one of the first steps is, you know, one of my favorite sayings is, when the house is on fire, you don’t paint the walls and mow the lawn. So one of the first places to look is Is there something up-regulating the Knox enzyme, and that can be a little complex. It can be that you over absorb iron. There’s, there are some individuals that have oxalates in case anybody doesn’t know, those are like little razor blades that are in some of the water healthiest foods. When you look at spinach, kale, and beets, if you look at them under a microscope, they have little oxalates in them. They’re sharp little things. So a lot of times people are not feeling well. And they say okay, I’m going to get my act together here, I’m going to eat healthily, and they start doing smoothies. And they put spinach, kale, and beets in, and it’s like, what the heck, I’m eating healthier, and I’m feeling worse. Hey, when that happens, right? So if you’ve got a leaky gut, those oxalates can leak in. So doing like the Great Plains, your inorganic acid tests can really help you understand whether you have oxalates. So for one person, it might be they need to stop their spinach, kale, and beets smoothies, which just seems so ironic, but that can be one of the factors. Some individuals particularly have an English Irish, nos, Eskenazi Jewish background, have excess iron absorption. And that iron can drive the NOx enzyme. glutamate is a neurotransmitter that makes you intelligent, highly motivated, go-getter. If it’s in excess, it will drive the NOx enzyme. If you’re a smoker or particularly, a lot of my clients from California when they had the fires, they were getting so sick with upregulated mast cells because of the smoke. aldosterone can do that high homocysteine dopamine. So if somebody has clostridia Clus Tritiya can impact the dopamine and norepinephrine conversion and don’t mean stimulates. For other people, it’s sulfites. So if they drink a glass of wine, or they do you know, high sulfur foods, they feel horrible. For other people, it’s electromagnetic fields. So all of those things can drive that including interleukin six. And, you know, maybe sometimes we ought to consider doing a webinar just on interleukin six because interleukin six drives the mast cells in the histamine and look at all these things, mold and mycotoxins, Lyme disease, libel, polysaccharides, EMF, and radon. By the way, everybody ought to check the radon in their house. And don’t work next year router, air pollution smoking, sodium sulfate, the heavy metals, glyphosate, the Omega sixes, vo C’s, I mean how many people do we know that? You know, the new car makes them sick, pesticides, anything that stimulates mTOR inside the body histamine, dopamine and the attention to the Knox enzyme, Brady Keinen obesity and hyperglycemia high homocysteine oxalates that we talked about hydrogen peroxide over-exercise you can actually exercise too much. Interestingly moderate exercise lowers aisle six over exercise increases. I think you said earlier that everything you need to learn you can learn with Goldilocks and the Three Bears you know, not too hot, not too cold. And then virus and anxiety. So all of these will stimulate interleukin six mast cells peroxynitrite and then glue to hf ion has to come to the rescue. And if we don’t have enough NADPH we’re in trouble. So that’s why NADPH is so important. And it’s the NADPH. I don’t have it on this chart, but the NADPH, helps the NOx enzyme stimulate all that inflammation. So it really is that proverbial 3d chess game played underwater here, Dr. Rosen. And then over on the right here, we have the things that will lower it. But I am just seeing so many individuals have elevated interleukin six. And of course, if you look at the published papers on COVID, interleukin six is involved with, you know, the serious cases of the cytokine storm, I’m sure we’ve all heard the story of the cytokine storm. And that is elevated interleukin six that makes some of that lung inflammation. Another paper just came out in December that said that people who have aisle six I’m sorry, Knox enzyme, already upregulated are the ones who have more serious reactions to the COVID. Because we know some people get COVID, they didn’t even know they had it. Others have mild symptoms, other people are gasping for breath and dying. So it’s multifactorial, and we don’t oversimplify. But upregulation of NOx and aisle six is a piece of what makes COVID strong. So that’s part of the 3d chess game where we’re looking at here. And if you’d like, would you like to talk a little bit about how fats impact this?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I definitely would. And I just going to say one comment, Bob because it’s all amazing information. But I know for some of the people sometimes when I explained to ice that I work with and I talked to it’s it’s overwhelming, right? Because it’s they’re not scientists, and they, as much as you’re able to articulate this concept. It’s very complex information. And if I’m exhausted, and I’m tired, and I have G six PD, and I don’t really know what it means, and I don’t really understand what I could do about it. And I just listened to this. And it’s very hard to understand, I think an easy way to summarize that as the environment stimulates an enzyme that helps your body deal with that environment. And that creates free radicals. And that makes your NADPH that much more needed. And also, at the same time, it’s stimulating your glutathione production to clear out the hydrogen peroxide. And I think that’s the connection that they can come away with Bob, because ultimately, they know that a G six PD person knows and what Becky is teaching in the group, to the G six PD deficiency support group and Facebook is that we need to preserve gluten ion. And if we can preserve gluten fine, and they understand that, but as you said so delicately, if you take too much, it can feed a whole other pathway that creates more free radicals. So there shouldn’t be an aha in their head thinking, Oh, okay, well, now, I don’t mess I can support the environmental influences on my body that stimulate the depletion of glutamine ion, and the need to have enough NADPH. And when NADPH isn’t around, it’s not going to recycle the gluten ion that is being used up. So that just kind of summarizes that but definitely want to get now into your mitochondria information. Because I’m intrigued not only have I wrote down on my notes like I’m a kid in the candy store every time I talk to you as I need that aisle six pathway so that I can share that with other people because I don’t have that. Yeah, I just said, you know what a nerd I am, Bob, in terms of how excited I am to get that. But you were talking a little bit earlier about mitochondria and how you think this is the biggest impact that you’ve seen. And listen, when you say something like that to me, I know you’ve said that before about a cat enzyme. You’ve looked at FADS in the past, but you keep coming up with these new I won’t say shiny jeans, but the more like look at me, Jean, that this is a real big domino effect for all physiology in the body.   Dr. Bob Miller: Yeah, I believe this might be one of our biggest findings, which brings a good point. I’m sure some people are glazing over at this point. So let me just give you some really quick things to do if you’re dealing with this. Number one, make sure you’re not being exposed to mold. Now, one of the things I often say to people is do you think there’s any mold in the house? Oh, no, I don’t see any mold here. We’re okay. But as you know, yeah, by the way, thank you for participating in our, in our seminar and on mold and, you know, many people don’t realize they can have a mold in the ductwork. It can just be coming from outside. There can be a leak that mold is up in the ceiling. It can be in the air conditioners. So I hear that all the time. Nope, we don’t have mold. And then we do a mold check and all of a sudden it’s like oh, Do you have mold, you know, something really simple people can do. You can get a little petri dish called mold armor. It’s like eight or 10 bucks. And you just pour a liquid in there, let it gel, let it sit out for an hour, close it for two days. And if you see a lot of growth on there, then you better take mold seriously. There are different parts of the country that I’ve read about. I was stunned, I moved to a new office. And, and I was intrigued by mold, so I buy radon. So I got a radon detector. And oh my goodness, my new office had radon of 13 should be under two. It’s like no, oops. So we had to get radon mitigation. So and there’s an interesting website radon comm where you can see the average rate on areas where you are. So if someone’s not feeling well, because of G six PD deficiency, as you said, there are things you can do to bring that down, get an air purifier, you know, in my office, I have three air purifiers sitting in here. So make sure you’re drinking pure water. And if you’re smoking, stop smoking. Just simple things. If you think it’s a glyphosate issue, start eating organic, you know, start drinking hydrogen water. Its amazing parsley is so helpful, make sure your vitamin D levels are okay, simple things that that we can all do. But if I had to put it at the top of the list, I’d have to say mold. Now one of the things that I have observed, now as you know, I’m, I’m probably a little crazy, I do this nine to 11 hours a day, six days a week. And, and I see some of the people that you know, physicians bring people to me, it’s like Bob, we’re stuck. I don’t know what to do anymore. So a lot of my coaching is with physicians who’ve got people that are really ill, and they just don’t know what to do anymore. So we look at their genome and all of a sudden I started seeing a fascinating pattern. Like what the heck is going on here. They’ve got to keep one stronger, nerf two weaker, possibly GSR not strong g six PD or en queue oh one by the way, and qL one is another important enzyme that’s involved with making NADPH. And if you’ve got g six PD, and then qL one, those can really pile up on you. So then I recognize that the oxidized glutathione is not turning back to the reduced. But I noticed something else. And all of a sudden was like I keep seeing this time after time. There’s an enzyme called fatty acid desaturase and are fads. And what it does, it takes our fats from our diet and turns them into the EPA d h A and then something called protectants and resolvins, which are anti-inflammatory. If they don’t go down this pathway properly, they will turn into arachidonic acid. And then an interesting collision occurs. The oxidized glutathione combined with the free fatty acids, and there’s an enzyme called 12 lipo oxygenase, that makes 12 HPD and 12 Hiti. Names don’t matter. But the bottom line is it creates mitochondrial dysfunction and oxidative stress. I’m saying publicly I think this is a smoking gun that nobody’s been looking at. I just see it continually and leaving effect the island function of the pancreas. So we have to wonder is this impacting now this is just hypothetical is impacting pancreatic enzymes. So some of the research we’re doing is to help people who have this how they do on pancreatic enzymes, or lipase, amylase, and protease to see if we can digest those fats better. And then also some supplements are actually the spasms that are already down the pathway here at the protections and results. Now there’s a loss enzyme. Look what this guy does. It stimulates the Knox enzyme. It stimulates tumor necrosis factor and interleukin six, it weakens a toughie G. Whoa. So this my friend, I think is a big deal. And stay tuned for more on this because I think this might be the smoking gun behind individuals who are struggling. And look what we need to clear this HPD to codify on PR oxidase, another strain on your glutathione. Oops. And we can talk about this at another time, but the superoxide dispute as we spoke about, needs an electron from Bluetooth ion to recycle them. So if you remember, if we don’t take our oxidized blue fi on back to our reduced, we make more superoxide. And even if we’ve got good a tox, one jeans, or plenty of copper, if we don’t have enough glue to tie on, you don’t recycle this guy. So it’s like having a brand new car with no gas. So in case, anybody’s really confused by now, what I’m talking about here is that if you don’t have enough NADPH, and your oxidized glue found doesn’t go back to the reduced and you don’t have enough superoxide dismutase. That’s when you really do the damage to the body. So stay tuned on that perhaps when we have more of that data together, we want to do a follow-up because we’re in a research stage on that. But for any of the doctors who are watching this, when you see anything that inhibits your oxidized or reduced glutathione inhibits that. And you got fads. These people are just folks who can get out of bed. They’re intense pain, they’re going from one clinic to another nobody’s figuring out what’s going on. And that’s the merry-go-round they’re on. Now, I think you would ask about, you know, what do we do for this stuff, and I think we kind of went down another bunny trail. My general approach is first if Knox is upregulated, you got to get Knox, calm down. Then if we’ve got problems with nerf two and keep one and GSR, we got to do this. Now even if you have an NADPH deficiency, there’s a nutrient called not divide mononucleotide that supports the production of NADPH. So it isn’t just an I’ve got D six PD, I’m in trouble, I guess I’m going to be sick the rest of my life, there are things you can do, you can take the strain off the glue to fire them so that you don’t have to use as much you can try to reduce oxidative stress, you can look at things like catalysts to clear hydrogen peroxide, so good if ion doesn’t have to do the job. But it is that 3d chess game played underwater.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Again, amazing stuff, Bob. And it really does sum up in terms of the pathways that you develop, to be able to make these potentials. And then as deep in the weeds as you’re getting to understand how it all fits together and creates havoc in the body. Ultimately, if we can help this phase of the cycle to get back up and around to be able to continually replenish itself. We’ll see in general, so many health conditions to be able to be improved by that. It’s just now it’s the work is in doing that so that everything else supports that happening as well, too. But one of the things I want Becky to say, which was a really good point to what you said earlier, with the FADS how that comes back around and helps with the ability of the Bluetooth ion with the NADPH to get back up with the group that she runs the G six PD that she’s noticed that with most are the research as well, that the hemolysis and the breaking of those red blood cells are shown with the studies to upregulate arachidonic acid. So but Becky, why don’t you tell us a little bit about what you found and how that relates to what Bob says. And specifically, as we are trying to, from a G six PD point of view, come up with a dietary approach that can harness and be in as Bob says everything you needed to learn was through Goldilocks and the Three Bears be in the Goldilocks zone thereof not too much fat, not too little. Give us a little more implications of that finding.   Becky Rhew: Well, as you know, with G six PD, we’re very people are very vulnerable to reactive oxygen species. And the arachidonic acid increases that, absolutely but I’ve also read specifically that in the G six PD deficient cells, they finding a high proportion of the arachidonic acid and lower proportions of palmitic and stearic acid. So I found that to be really interesting, especially when you look at what parts of the world experienced g six PD deficiency in, in high quantity, which is which can be the Mediterranean. So some of these you know, some of these genetic things are protective in a way and if you’re following the traditional diet where you know where this came about, you might be protected as well. So we have some people from Greece in the group with their g six PD deficient and they have no symptoms. So you know, we can look at maybe their lifestyle is a lot better. This is the US, hopefully. But also maybe they’re following a different type of diet where they’re getting more of that palmitic, stearic oleic acid, and they’re not getting those, you know that that harmful Rise of the arachidonic acid in their cells? It’s very interesting. Yeah.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I’d be interested to know to Bob, Becky, and I had talked about this in terms of seeing the differences because we do have cohorts of some Filipino areas and African areas, and Mediterranean areas. And seeing now, which percentage of those people that get hit the hardest, along with their diet happened to have those fA d genes and they’re not even getting the Mediterranean thing I would imagine that the Mediterranean, if they do have the FADS, at least they’re getting more to be able to, to break down from that. versus if you also have that FADS and you live in a country that you don’t need a lot of fat, it’s going to be even more potentially problematic. But it’d be interesting to research information in that way to be able to see those connections. Yeah, yeah. So as far as the one thing that, you know, I am grateful for your time, but I think it’s really important for you to kind of give us your impression of, and the understanding of that you alluded to it earlier in terms of M tour, and a toughie, G and how important that is, I mean, that’s a whole other seminar. But as far as how what is that? And why, why is that really important and everything we’ve just talked about?   Dr. Bob Miller: Sure, well, let’s talk about him toward the growth of new cells. And maybe when I’m chatting here, I can pull up a slide here. So mtorr is the growth of new cells. And if we didn’t have mtorr, life wouldn’t exist. Because the sperm and the egg would never become the baby, the baby would never become the adult. Here’s my slide. There we go. Let me do a screen share. There we go. So here’s my mtorr slide. And this was 2018. presentation at the lime conference in Boston. And we actually found that those with chronic Lyme had more predispositions to an invalid imbalance between them toward a toffee G. So mTOR is the growth of new cells. And again, that is like a copy machine that causes things to happen. a toughie. g is the cleaning of the cells. So as you know, your cells are constantly dividing. And the old cell when it dies needs to be cleaned out, it needs to be reabsorbed, something called Auto phagosomes that do that, and then they expel the waste through the excretion. And if that doesn’t happen, a good telltale sign of that is when you get age spots prematurely. age spots, sunspots, livers bots, is when the cells aren’t being excluded, they become sentiment. And you know, I’m sure you see people in their mid to late 50s being filled with aid spots, you know, it should be happening to us at all in our 80s. So that’s a sign that the autophagy is not working. So mtorr is a replication of cells. And it doesn’t care whether it’s a healthy cell cancer cell or COVID, it replicates. And if you look at the chart here, you’ll see xenoestrogens plastics, some people are doing too many amino acids in hormones, I get very concerned when people take the growth factor hormones, glucose and insulin, they can also be driven by EMF, too much iron, too much glutamate. And I think too many people are taking glutamine for their leaky guts, and, you know, causing extra glutamate and Foley. Now we know pregnant women, need to be on fully because if they’ve got particularly mutations that they don’t have enough fully, they can either not get pregnant, have a miscarriage, or deform baby. So they need the full eight to stimulate that mtorr. But right now, particularly with the environment, we’re living in now, I get a little concerned that some people who are not pregnant might be overtaking too much Methylfolate driving em tour too strongly. So mtorr will inhibit a toughie G. So that’s why we’re seeing such an increase in the popularity of intermittent fasting. Because when you stop the calories, I give the analogy. This is like the construction crew, and you take away the building materials. So when you take away the building materials, it’s like, Okay, guys, break time janitors come out and do your job. So I believe multiple environmental factors are pushing em tour versus a topology, you know, and one of the things we’re doing I think we’re gonna look back someday and what were we thinking, giving our animals growth hormone so they get fatter faster. Oh my god. We’re gonna look back on that and say, oops. You know, for people my own age, we often talk about, you know, when I was 12 girls look like flat chested little girls. Now 12-year-olds look like 18-year-olds because we’re driving the growth hormone. And we have no idea what the long-term ramifications of that are, as far as cancers and other things. So that’s why intermittent fasting and the ketogenic diet have been so helpful. But what’s interesting, people who have a lot of mutations in the fads or the pet, crash on the ketogenic diet, can’t handle it, they need carbohydrates on a regular. So a mtorr stimulates interleukin six, which then stimulates mast cells, histamine, superoxide, peroxynitrite, depleting your glutathione.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I’m one of them. You. I mean, you did mention, but I mean, it’s that it’s just there all the time is the EMF whole other story, but that EMF drives that up and insulin up and mtorr up. One of the other things I would say is on that mtorr diagram, it does stimulate that pentose phosphate pathway that causes that, that makes the NADPH and depletes the G six PD even further. So m tour is really important g six PD people to know how to regulate and Bob, I don’t even think of it anymore, as the crew ever stops working, they don’t go on breaks, they don’t really if you can at least slow the momentum, I don’t even think you put it on pause, let alone off. I don’t ever think you do. I think it’s past that point. But if you can do fasting, mimicking diets, and other things that will help berberine and things that can stimulate an NPK, there are so many things that can be done about that, which is why we do the information we’re doing. But ultimately, to your point, though, everything in balance, because if that mTOR is not being stimulated, it’s not making the NADPH either. So at the same time, we need to really learn how to balance this, but your information is always amazing. And I’m, again, just thank you for everything you do. Because, I think you are humble in the way that you say, potential so that, you know, it doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. But we understand the depth of these pathways, and you’re deep in the woods and really impacting the way health care is being practiced. And ultimately, you have successes. And that’s the thing, the sky is not falling, we have the ability to harness what we know, information-wise. And, Bob, you’re a living testament to that you just said six days a week, 1112 hours a day. And so it and your brain are still really sharp and amazing. So thank you for everything you do. You know, ultimately, there are a lot of providers listening to this, and you did mention your conferences, I’d be curious to know if you’re having any live ones coming up because I’d love to be at your next one live. But ultimately, how do well how does it work if I’m a provider, and I had a lot of aha moments in this call, and how do I learn more?   Dr. Bob Miller: Sure, we decided we were going to wait until we can know if we’re going to have a live conference. So we may just push it off to spring of next year. Virtual is fine. But it’s, as one doctor said it’s so nice to see each other’s naked faces live. So we’re going to see if we can have a live conference in the spring of 2022. But if somebody wants to learn about our online certification courses, just go to functional genomic analysis.com, functional genomic analysis.com. And right there, you can go into my online certification course. Now, this is for physicians or other health professionals. And the first couple of modules are free. And then, of course, we have our own genetic test. We have our own spit kit, we have our own online software, we’ve put about $2.5 million into the development, we’re continuing to roll out advances. So we want to be of help to the health professional. So we have medical doctors, we have traditional we have naturopaths who do this work. And if someone’s a health professional listening to this, I want to just say that the reports we make are not for the faint of heart. If somebody thinks they’re going to get a two-page report that says do this. No, you’ve got to do your homework. You got to learn the pathways. And but the software does give you suggestions as to, you know, where you need help and we’re putting in what are called dynamic messages all the time so that there’s actually going to be messages that will come up from me that will be like You know what, you’ve Mqone and G six PD, but you also have an RF two. So I don’t think we spoke about that, but nerf two controls g six PD and n q one. So you know, that’s why I think some people might be able to have a Gsix PD and they’re fine. Other people are more impacted. So if you’ve got the G six PD weakness in nerf to upregulation and keep one, then those g six pts might be a whole lot more important. So again, we like to simplify things, Gene problem, I think we’re going to have to abandon that someday. And see that is that 3d chess game played underwater, multiple snips, multiple environmental factors. And so if you’ve got g6pd, and you live in mold, and you’re a smoker, and you’re under chronic stress, and you just got over Lyme disease, you’re going to be a whole lot harder than the person who doesn’t do that eats organically, meditates or does whatever for stress. So there are multiple factors, and I think we’re gonna find there aren’t simple solutions.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s the beauty of it all, as complex as this gets the simple solution is the common-sense solution. And, you know, what, what you should be doing anyway. And so just to thank you once again, and to echo the fact that when you have the the the gene snips, it’s a very reductionistic approach, as you’ve listened from this going forward. It’s interesting, as well, Bob, because I listened to some of our old talks. And you’ve mentioned, like, I think someday we’ll look back and think that was naive of us as the doctor, right. And I think that you continue to grow that knowledge base to be able to understand and give hope and provide solutions. So and there is an effective solution. So if you’re a provider listening to that, I highly recommend that because as you mentioned, last and pat in finalizing is, you now work mostly with doctors that are not knowing what to do at this point, because it is so complex. So when you open up that blueprint of the functional genomic analysis, and you see all those things, you have these light bulbs saying, hey, look here, look here. And you’re now doing research studies over time to see these correlations. And it’s not just the other what you just mentioned, there hit harder with a tox. Now, that would make it worse for a FADS. So now you can put in your software, hey, as soon as a tox comes up, and it goes down the superoxide pathway, let’s let them know that that’s something we need to consider too. So that’s awesome information. Bob, really, really great. Thank you so much for spending the time and helping people with G six PD, get some more information, and ultimately empower them to be able to know that it’s not a gavel of the ground and granted that this is a problem for you forever. You are empowered to be able to do something about it.   Dr. Bob Miller: Absolutely. Well, it’s been a lot of fun. I’ve enjoyed it like always and glad to come back anytime you want me. Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Thank you so much, Bob.   The post Fatigue and G6PD Deficiency Explained with Dr. Bob Miller appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Right Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I believe this is round three, for the last strength flex the last stress life podcast. I’m joined here with a special guest, Carrie Jones. I think by now like I told everyone knows who Carrie Jones is, it’s a real privilege for having her here, but just in case you don’t, she’s an adjunct professorship professor at that. And then and you add them regularly, consults, lectures and writes on the topics of hormones, thyroid, adrenals, digestive issues, autoimmune, and more, both nationally and internationally. She is the medical director at precision analytical, the world’s leading laboratory in dried urine hormone testing. And she’s one cool, awesome. practitioner, friend, and colleague. So Carrie, thank you so much for being here today. I appreciate it.   Dr. Carrie Jones: Joel. I’m glad we got to reconnect and make it happen. I always have a good time talking to you on your podcast.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, um, you know, listen, I thank you. And I appreciate it. I’m watching all your social media, and you’ve really crossed that next barrier of just showing who you are, you know, I always remember one of the very first conferences that I heard you speak and you mentioned in a really diplomatic way about talking to some of the women about difficult hormone questions that they may be having, and, you know, not wanting that little hair on the chin there. And you have a really great sense of humor and down-to-earth nature about you. So why don’t you give us a little update on sort of What’s New for you in terms of where your interests lay. Now, in terms of understanding when women and men for that matter, are overwhelmed or have all of these environmental triggers and challenges with balancing out their hormones. And now the Dutch test has so many tools to be able to give practitioners insight on how they can manage this? Where does that leave you in terms of what you’re seeing or what you’re doing? Or just kind of give us a little springboard to what’s new in the life of Dr. Carrie Jones?   Dr. Carrie Jones: Well, I will say it’s funny that with your tagline of you know, helping burned-out individuals in earlier 2021. So I want to say in a march timeframe, actually, I will just back up all the way into 2020. By the end of 2020. I was completely done and burned out. And I say that I was very lucky and that I maintained my job. And because everything shifted to online, I wasn’t traveling like I used to but the whole world went to global education, right online education. And I was working nonstop for many, many, many months about hormone education and in our field because we couldn’t travel or we couldn’t go to conferences. And a lot of people had a lot of time to be at home on their computer watching, watching educational events. I was just going and so by just the time, December hit one it. I mean, it was a pandemic, which was stressful in itself. And then too, I was working all the time and I hit maximum burnout. And I say this as the medical director of a lab that tests cortisol and hormones, right. And so, I had been telling people on my social media that I was, you know, having bad days, I was tired. I was feeling burnt out, did a Dutch test, and lo and behold, of course, my cortisol not only was my cortisol low my free cortisol, but I was the enzyme that preferentially deactivates cortisol so makes it inactive, was up-regulated, meaning I was a deactivator So not only did I not make very much cortisol, I don’t think I was also deactivating what I had, basically, my body was like, excuse me, you’re burning the candle at both ends. You were not listening. So we’re gonna make you tired. Sorry. And I was doing all the things I knew I was taking my supplements and I was you know, mixing up meditation or breath exercises, I maintained exercise. Through the pandemic. We were lucky where we live, we have this beautiful backyard and so much of spring summer fall we I was allowed to be outside even if we weren’t allowed to go to stores and restaurants and what have you. And still, it didn’t matter. It was my own. I had to get some mindset boundary stuff dealt with to handle the burnout. And when I posted the results, I’m very much an open book and a lot of ways and I posted my results to show people and of course, everyone’s like what did you take, what did you take, what supplements you take? And I was like well, I took a few I shifted a few things around but I said it honestly had nothing to do with supplements and everything to do with me. I was the problem. I was I’m a Type A over Achieving take on too much perfectionistic person and I took it to the nth degree. And so I had to work on me and my boundary setting and mindset and, you know, priorities and what have you. And so it was a really good experience for me to go. It wasn’t necessarily like, Oh, I was deficient National Gondo, or I was deficient in B 12 or was deficient in whatever, you know, co q 10. It was those things are very helpful. And thank goodness, we have them. But a lot of it was my own personal work that I had to do. And as I laid that out for people, a lot of comments, a lot of DMS, of folks who were like, dang it, I’m taking the supplements, but I’m not really doing the work. Like I’m not paying attention to the day-to-day or my mindset or what’s happening or, like, I don’t want to go there. I can’t go there. It’s too hard to go there. I’m struggling to go there. But okay, you’re probably right. In for a lot of folks, obviously, not everybody. That doesn’t apply to everybody. But it was a very good perspective for me. So it was like an insight springboard and what’s been going on since we last talk. So now I better boundaries. But I did some mindset personal work, I had a couple of coaches that I worked with, that I hired and worked with to help me get through and, and 2021 has been much, much better, that’s for sure. But I just want everyone to know that even the medical director of a hormone lab is not immune, thick. We’re all vulnerable to.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, absolutely. I’m glad you had those smack-in-the-wall roadblocks in life to have to come up for air and, and get the smelling salts under your nose to all these analogies to stop being the shoemaker with major holes in your shoes. You know, at the end of the day. That’s what you’re saying. But I think a couple of things where I don’t know you’ve probably seen this shift to carry in terms of since COVID. And since education and research, as bad as things get worse, as good as things get better. I think we’re moving towards that in the integrative functional world of not mindset per se. But the intangibles, the glue the self-love or the boundaries, or the saying no, or being able to understand how these variables don’t show up in a supplement bottle or on a lab test. Make those are potential eight those for working or not working in your favor. Yeah, read on that your see.   Dr. Carrie Jones: Yeah, And I would say a lot of people, not everyone, but I got a lot of just anecdotal feedback from people who were saying, I’m realizing what’s important, you know, that pandemic made me realize what, what I what truly deserves my attention, what truly deserved my, you know, focus, did I really care about that? And it also made me realize that things I could give zero F’s about, like, you know, like, wasn’t important, I should stop stressing, there are bigger things in this world we’re stressing about, worth worrying about. And I mean, I think that pandemic, which is obviously still part, you know, going on some degree, and it’s, it’s, I’m not saying it wasn’t hard, it was extremely hard, but that it made the whole world pivot and shift and, and I just got that my comments in the DMS of people be like, you know, like, either their job or where they live, or they would focus back on family. I heard that over and over and over again, or somebody’s personal health, focusing back on their personal health because now they weren’t giving out all the time, right? pre-pandemic, we could go out, we could, we could travel, we were working, like everything, we’d appointments we had a practice like everything was out. And when we got everything got on lockdown, everything was in. And so people started to look around and go, well, Dang, what is important, like, what do I want to maintain? And what am I What do I want to give up? And so I saw that a lot in my comments.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, it’s excellent that that happens. And it’s hard like we talked about earlier, it’s frustrating when you get those counter comments like, Well, what about, you know, what’s the magic pill to fix this? And then there’s that education process. But one thing that I think you I would love to ask you in terms of you mentioned that on the Dutch test that you did, or the test that you tested your own hormones, not only where potentially your HPA axis or the total cortisol that you’re producing for the day was low.   Dr. Carrie Jones: But actually, that was fine. So that’s how I knew I made cortisol. My total cortisol was fine. My free was low, right? So I could make it I couldn’t keep it as free. And so I knew and then we, we, we check, we give you an indicator of that enzyme, and it turns out I was in deactivator.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Right. So so thank you for correcting me so that that’s not always going to be the case just because you’re deactivating that cortisol doesn’t mean you’re not making it up. So what I tell people number one is it’s just not as easy as I did a saliva test and it was, hi, I need to take Serien or phosphate, I get a saliva test, it was low. And I need to take licorice root or these nutrients. It’s there’s a lot of pathways that are involved. And one of the things that I’ve seen with what we’re talking about on your test is you have that total that you produce for the day for that given period metabolized. And I look at that as more of the glandular function or the brain’s need for the hormone. But then you have that mind-body disconnect, which I tell people like basically, at the day, like your mind may say, yes, but your body definitely says no, and you’re not able to and your eyes are bigger than your stomach. And one of the ways that I think the Dutch test captures that so nicely is in that deactivation of that cortisol, I tell people, it’s like the Army Sergeant that says, hey, these troops need to go back into reserves, because either where it’s just your troops, your Sergeant knows the terrain of the body, and meet and preserve the troops in times of crisis, or just knows what’s best for the body versus us trying to micromanage it per se. And not trying to overcome that. But bottom line is, is I think that what’s so great about that Dutch test is it shows a disconnect between what the brain wants the adrenals to do, and what the cells of the body systemically want the adrenals to do. So maybe kind of give us some insight on that because it doesn’t really you know, it does people listening to this that are exhausted and burnt out, may not have any clue deactivation, what is that what, why what’s going on there.   Dr. Carrie Jones: Right. So the body makes cortisol first and foremost that’s in free cortisol is what’s active, binds to receptors, turns them on does the things. However, cortisol is potent, powerful, it’s it can be a bully to a lot of receptors. And so the body is smart, and it puts this enzyme I don’t know who names these things, but the enzyme is called 11, beta h s d two and 11 beta HS D to D activates cortisol, it turns it off, and when it turns it off, it magically turns into cortisone. So a lot of you are familiar with hydrocortisone cream and you might think to yourself hydrocortisone cream, I have that for bug bites and Poison Ivy and whatnot. Believe it or not, hydrocortisone is actually cortisol. It’s a naming thing when you put the hydro in front of it. It’s a fake-out hydrocortisone cream, when you put on your bug bites in your poison ivy, that’s cortisol. Take the hydro off just plain old cortisone, totally inactive dead in the water. So if you have a lot of cortisol in whatever places the body certainly likes your kidneys don’t like a lot of cortisol, your sweat glands don’t like a lot of cortisol, your intestines don’t like a lot of cortisol. So to protect you, it’ll turn it off if it’s getting too much. But if you were burning the candle at both ends, and you kind of have a lot of cortisol, basically coming out the system all the time. The body’s like, you know what, this is annoying. You need to stop right now. And it basically turns off the cortisol into cortisone. So you don’t have a choice but to listen, you start to feel more tired and more burned out. And you don’t have the arm for the motivation may be that you used to now we are humans and a lot of humans can power through. They can mind over matter there. Like even though I’m tired, I’m still going to accomplish all these things. But the body says, Don’t do it. Don’t do it because you were pushing, pushing, pushing like a hamster on a wheel. And we need to turn off the hamster wheel. So in my case, I had been pushing for close to a year. And when I did my test, it turns out my body was deactivating it was basically telling me to slow down and go back into the reserves. And so you’re right some supplements can reactivate. But by reactivating what I have solved any of my problems. No, because I if I was still a hamster on the wheel, and you’re just like, it’s the equivalent of like just IV, not the hamster and pumping them through full of caffeine, or cocaine or like quarters, like just straight, you know, stimulants, eventually the hamster is going to completely burn outfall off the wheel. So it’s the same if you’re just taking supplements to reactivate yourself. But you continue to do the things that are burning you out in the first place. You continue to push and push and push. Then you have a problem. So when I saw it on paper, I knew what I was doing. Of course, I’m intelligent. But when I saw it on paper, I was like, oh, okay, I guess I’ll slow down. I guess I’ll listen. I’ll guess I’ll stop being the hamster on the wheel and Take care of myself, supplements help. I’m not saying don’t use supplements, they absolutely help. But again, the supplements are only as good, as are your habits. So if you are a hamster on a wheel, and you won’t stop, the supplements aren’t going to save you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I think there is an art to interpreting a test on what it’s actually telling you. And, and, and asking the carry or the person what’s going on. And in your case, you really were not listening to your body, your body was deactivating the cortisol, but your brain was powering through and wanting to continue to do things and you needed the ability to look at that and say, oh, okay, I need to, if my cells at the cellular level know that it’s too catabolic and too, too much impact on me, then I got to listen to my body. So that’s a great marker on there. The other thing I would say on that as well, though, is that the art of interpreting the test means well, we could give you licorice root to decrease that HalfLife or increase the halflife. A little spill got excited with that we’re increasing now. We’re increasing half lives here. Yeah, no, that was exciting. So So as far as when May I ask from a clinical perspective, when would you tell the body that maybe not so much, it’s inappropriate, but we want to give you a little more oomph out of the half-life so it doesn’t deactivate? Or is that even a thing? carry that people would want to modulate that short term? At least for me?   Dr. Carrie Jones: Well, yeah, they can. Absolutely. I mean, definitely, if they’re doing the things, twos to get themselves off the wheel, at the same time, they’re taking the supplement. Fantastic, because you’re really addressing the cause, while just adding a little band-aid of a supplement to help give you some more oomph, but what I don’t like because they’re just gonna burn out even harder. It’s the people who won’t get off the wheel or won’t do anything about the wheel. And they’re just like, just tell me to supplement Just give me the supplement, give me the link to the supplement, I’ll just take the supplement. But you’re not addressing it. Like it’s not going to help and may help for a week or two. But it’s definitely you’re going to feel just as bad and then you’re going to come right back at me and go that was crap. That supplement didn’t work. I feel terrible. I’m like, I know. You didn’t do anything. You were just trying to shortcut your issues. Based on these lab results. This is why when I saw my own lab results, it was a huge wake-up call. Not huge, but I was like dang it. There it is in print, right and colorful print. That licorice wasn’t going to save me licorice wasn’t my problem. A lack of licorice. I didn’t have licorice deficiency. It’s not what I had. What I had was an overachieving type of hamster on the wheel problem. And that’s what I had to stop or address or reevaluate, right? I didn’t actually take licorice, to be honest, but a lot of people do in that case, would have just been a nice bonus to help. Just get some more own feedback for some people. But I didn’t need to licorice isn’t what I needed.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? You could triage perhaps short term like I got an I got major meetings coming up the in-laws are coming, I need a little bit of entering whatever it is, but with the understanding, but I’ll add to the frustration from the practitioner side of things or for your social media followers because I get this too is that’s based on objective real-time labs if the person’s done it, but what about the person? Well, my cortisol is high, I need to lower it or my quarter. And I asked, Well, how do you know your cortisol is high? I just know it’s high. And then so there’s that. And then I always say supplement companies get greedy because they try to put adaptogens in there where it may modulate either way, but then they’ll have ones that will lower it and raise it or preserve it at the same time. Right. So now they’re pulling in both directions. And I say that’s not going to solve the problem anyway, right? Because so that is definitely frustrating. For sure.   Dr. Carrie Jones: There are cases when people need to keep their heads above water. And I fully respect that. I mean, I had a lot of patients in practice who maybe were going through a divorce, or maybe they were about to have a big move, or they were finishing a program and they were like I literally can’t change my life. But I need to keep my head above water for the next two weeks, two months, whatever it is just to keep going. And then I can start to make changes. I’m like alright, in that case, supplements are a great band-aid, but I always told him the same thing. I’m like, I’m putting a little more money into your checking account. But when you drain it back to Zero again, like, we’re back to zero. So the supplements aren’t going to carry you for the rest of your life. I mean, we, they can help keep your head above water in the short term, but it is truly in the short term, you still have to, we still have to recognize that at some point, you’re going to have to make some changes whatever that look like. And I found in the pandemic, it was a classic example I, you know, a lot of people were getting on there, making sure to take their supplements regularly taking adaptogens. And they would say, Is it bad, you know, is this problematic, I’m like, just make sure you’re taking care of yourself at the same time. In a lot of ways the pandemic was keeping your head above water, we had a lot of restrictions, we had a lot of shutdowns, we have a lot of fear. A lot of things we can do, there was a lot of illness, there was a lot of death, there was a lot of job loss and monetary loss. And so like, let’s just keep your head above water. Absolutely. But when you can, if you’re going to have to make some changes.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I know, we talked about that earlier, like tripping over dollars to save pennies, or you mentioned in terms of giving you a little bit of extra income. But the real, the real success, I’m sure you would agree is in lowering the overhead obviously, right? So if we can lower that overhead now you saved, or you salvaged or you have extra disposable income that you didn’t have before. So that’s where we talk about lifestyle behavioral modifications, and that that’s where I’m really excited to talk to you now about because I know you’re really getting into that as well. We talked about the continuous glucose monitor and blood sugar. So what are the different strategies with that being included, that save on the overhead that people can be empowered to do so that they don’t have to micromanage the deactivation per se?   Dr. Carrie Jones: Right. And I’ll tell you, I’m all about the free, cheap and easy. I’m all about the free, cheap, and easy. And so, you know, people will see things out, they’ll see, like we were talking about before going live, we were talking about like environmental toxins, and people will see the big $300 $600 air filter on they’re like, gosh, I can’t you know, I don’t know that I can pay for the $600 air filter. I’m like, Well don’t start with the air filter. Why don’t we start by just getting rid of the candles in your house, right? Like why don’t we start by when you run out of the cleaning agent that you switch to a brand that’s actually truly a clean brand. So start with the 899 spray that’s better and getting rid of your candles or finding clean-burning candles as opposed to candles full of a fragrance that fake fragrance. When it off-gases when it releases into the air and you breathe it in. It’s causing all sorts of problems with your endocrine system. Let’s get rid of the tree hanging in your car to make it smell like leather or a Hawaiian island or whatever it’s making you smell like you know like so these, these free, cheap, and easy things. When you run out of deodorant. Let’s find a clean version. When you run out of lipstick. Let’s find one that doesn’t have a lot in it. When you run out of shampoo. Let’s switch to one that has like that’s sodium lauryl sulfate-free, that’s paraben-free, like lets fragrance-free or you know uses full-on true essential oils. And so, but even then you have to make sure your essential oils are good. So it’s these like baby steps that I’m 100% on board with for people when they asked me if they should spend $1,000 on a water filter. I’m like you can if that fits your budget, but let’s try some other stuff. Why don’t we first start with maybe even I mean, any kind of water filter helps the Britta I mean it’s not great, but it’s a start and that’s where you can afford a $30 Britta that fits in your budget, start there and drink out of glass don’t drink out of plastic right in or switch, switch out your plastic containers for glass you can find them really pretty inexpensively at Amazon or Walmart or even like, like, like goodwill and stuff, you know, just be you can make it to fit your budget instead of heating and plastic. And now you’re getting the plastics, which is an endocrine disruptor stop using saran wrap that plastic wrap, switch to parchment paper. So again, these little things, and then we go up the tear. So then you can get a more expensive water filter that fits your budget, you can get an air filter, getting the CGM, the continuous glucose monitor, which is not about environmental toxins, but is about continuous health monitoring. You know, if it fits in your budget, and a lot of them. I think in the next five years, I think they’re going to be like, Advil, I think we’re gonna find them really easy to come by really inexpensive. I know in other countries, they’re like 20 to $40 you can get them in a pharmacy, you don’t need a prescription. My friends in London are like, Oh yeah, we just pop in the pharmacy and get one I’m like, aren’t you cool? So whereas here in the States, you have to have a prescription, but having that information about how the food you’re eating is spiking your glucose and subsequently, your insulin will give you feedback on like, oh, when I ate Ice cream, my sugar went way up, and then it crashed way down like a big spiky mountain. And now I’m tired. Ha, maybe I shouldn’t do that. Because that big spike caused the crash. And now I feel tired and I brain fog and I’m not motivated, I feel kind of bloated. And so it gives you that immediate health feedback, which is so nice. And so that’s why like, in working with what you can control, that there’s just like you said, Don’t trip over dollars just to pick up a penny like, like, you don’t have to, in this case, go for the low hanging fruit. Go for this stuff in your house, in your car, at your work in your backyard. What you spray your backyard with, that you can adjust to help your health?   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, those are awesome, free, cheap, and easy. I think a lot of the time people have major challenges with addressing some of the elephants in the rooms in terms of opening up old wounds or post-traumatic stressors or bad relationships or bad jobs. And it’s a hard thing to overcome. But there has to be like you said behavioral changes and approaching and modulating, diminishing, accepting whatever it may be. And that’s not going to be found in a supplement bottle for sure. I would agree. So but you mentioned earlier because I think this is one of my Ahas with my CGM is we do focus on the continuous glucose monitor we focus on the foods which we should I think we should understand what particular foods cause a bigger rise of your glucose and other ones. But one of the things that really was an aha for me, Carrie was I already have a pretty long day as it is I ate I get home late I leave early. And then I have a later dinner. And then when I get consumed with work, I’ll be on the computer still like at 10 3011. Like what am I What am I doing like I ate at like eight o’clock and I’ll look at my CGM. And because I’m responding to emails and not even going down the slippery slope of emf and insulin relationships. But my glucose was like at 148. And I had a load and I was like, wow, like, I need to turn it off. It’s Yeah, turn it off. So I think that’s a huge any aha that you’ve had, besides.   Dr. Carrie Jones: I was yell I was in the car. And I was Yeah, I was super mad. And I was by myself and I was yelling in the car, right? I was externally processing. And I was yelling, and it was about a 20-minute drive, I had checked my glucose before getting in the car. And by the time I got to the place I was going, I thought I’m gonna check my glucose and see how it was. And it went up 30 points, because my body was like, Oh, she must be fighting, she must be ready to fight, I’m going to increase her glucose. So she can have it for her brain. And in her skeletal muscles. So she can fight whatever is she’s going to fight and protect herself. I was fighting like, myself, right? I was having this conversation out loud to externally process something. But there was nothing in front of me, I wasn’t actually going to go run or punch or do anything. And so now my glucose is 30 points higher in my bloodstream. And I’m not going to use it. Right. Oh, and this is where I’m like, Oh my gosh, Imagine all the people who live their day like this all the time, they have chronic stressors, chronic fight or flight triggers all the time. And on top of it, they don’t have a release to burn off their blood sugar so to speak, right? They’re maybe not as they’re not as active as they could be. They’re not as mobile as they want to be. And so they’re not able to sort of burn up and use up this glucose and it leads to their increased risk for metabolic syndrome and cardiovascular disease. And you know, it just perpetuates the stress cycle. And so that was a really big eye-opener for me that when I do get heated because I’m emotional before I’m logical, that is affecting my blood sugar and I should probably bring it back.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a that’s a big aha for sure. I know that one of the things that I teach the clients that I work with is to use the CGM first and foremost, but I find that for me, one of the other things that work very well is getting a little bit of movement after a meal to be able to bring get that sensitivity. It’s amazing when I have an exercise then I start contracting my muscles, how much more respondent my receptors are to insulin for number one, but to tie back. How does that have to do with adrenals? Just to tie back what is blood sugar have to do with that cortisol? maybe explain to our listeners why we would use CGM gas, where we get cortisol.   Dr. Carrie Jones: If let’s put it this way if glucose Had a resume. And on its resume, the very first thing was like its top skill. What is it good at? cortisol? When did I say glucose, Amanda cortisol, cortisol had a resume, the top skill it’s good at is managing glucose. That’s its number one job. Everyone thinks cortisol is about stress is a large general term. Or oh my gosh, cortisol makes me gain belly fat. But the why and the how is that it manages glucose. So cortisol is a glucocorticosteroid, that’s the family of falls under glucose because glucose is the number one thing so when your cortisol goes up, then your body breaks down. Glucose for you, and makes it available into your bloodstream, primarily for your brain. But also, of course, for other things. So that you can deal with handle with being prepared for whatever’s in front of you. It’s a normal natural event, that is supposed to happen. But it’s supposed to be short-lived, it’s supposed to be I’m going, I’m scared, or I have this fight something I have to run, I need to run and protect myself, the body’s like I got you, I’m going to give you some glucose, I’m going to put it to your brain. So you can think this through, I’m going to give it to your muscles, so you can turn around and run away. And then it will be done, you’ll have used it up. But what happens is like me in the car, we get mad at our phone, we get mad at our boss, we get mad at an email, we get mad at the news, we get mad at mail, we get mad at our kids. And we’re not actually going to burn it up fight runaway do something. And so it the high cortisol aspect of it can contribute to again, that metabolic syndrome, diabetes, obesity conundrum that a lot of people find themselves in. Now on the flip side, if you have low cortisol, you’re going to struggle to deal with your glucose. Because if your cortisol is always sort of kind of low, then when the demand is there to have glucose, it’s just not going to be what you want, or maybe kind of erratic. And now you may find yourself hypoglycemic so that brain fog, hangry tired, especially in between meals. And so by improving your blood sugar, you will improve your cortisol by improving your cortisol, you will naturally improve your glucose by getting everybody kind of balanced out where they need to be. So they are best friends and go hand in hand.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I think it’s interesting, like you said, I’d like to see that day where the continuous glucose monitors are gonna be available for that. Because right now the paradigm is what you eat and controlling your blood sugar not really thinking about what we’ve just mentioned in terms of your stressors, or your inactivity, or how long you’re under your WiFi for, or when you exercise and controlling all those variables to modulate the sugar handling, which is ultimately going to pay the overhead of the adrenal.   Dr. Carrie Jones: So yeah. And I agree, I see I learned about taking a walk after meals a couple of years ago. And it helps to have a dog My dog is very regimented. And so he likes walks out, you know, kind of around like mid-morning after lunch, and for sure, after dinner, and so having a CGM on, I can see a big difference I can eat, I can eat high carb, high sugar, you know, I can just blow it. And if I go for a walk, if I go for a 10 or 20-minute walk, even with a blood sugar starting to climb, it will be blunted and it will start to pull it because I’m using it I’m utilizing the glucose from whatever I’ve chosen to eat that day, or that for that meal. And so it doesn’t have to be a high stakes hit exercise, literally walking my dog 10 or 20 minutes, will pull my blood sugar back appropriately, a lot of the time, which and how free, cheap and easy. Is that? Right? Go? Go for a 10 or 20-minute walk if you can’t, and it accounts people say, Well, if I walk around my house, yep. Do you want to know how many people start taking business calls while walking? or walking their house the inside of their house? You know, people say does it count if I’m on a treadmill? Totally, yep. If it’s raining outside, and you do 10 or 1520 minutes on your treadmill, and I’m not saying speed walk, you don’t have to like you know, win the Olympics on it. Just go for a walk. It helps.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and if we contrast that to what’s going on in the world, I don’t want to get political and everything that’s going on but we public health in my mind and the preventative model and the educating model is out the window. It’s not even part of the policy. Yeah, what we’re talking about is really common sense stuff.   Dr. Carrie Jones: Yeah. Right. Driven by science-driven by science and data. You know if you’ve got and if you’re checking your blood sugar and Have, you don’t have to have a CGM on your arm to know this, like I have so many diabetics who just prick their finger, or I have type one diabetics, and they will sit there like we were taught that years ago. Like we all know, like, our, my endocrinologist taught me that or my pharmacist said to do that, I mean, not that they do it, or it’s, but I have definitely heard this over the years from people way before CGM like that, that this the continuous glucose monitors an amazing tool, but if you if that’s not in your budget, or you can’t get it, you can still go for a walk, it will still work.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? You can still be aware of what you would have learned if you had it. Yeah, implement those strategies anyways, Yeah, I was gonna mention with just the whole isolation is not conversing not moving, not engaging. And how that has that? I guess I won’t even say the natural law effect of adding more cortisol or just regulating more your blood sugar, causing you now what’s the relationship carry between that and immune health? So why would I?   Dr. Carrie Jones: Well, yeah, let me back up just to say the socialized isolation, we all know, we had the fight or flight system. And then we have the rest and digest system, the right part of our, of our body, but we also have is part of it, we have a freeze, right? So we have to fight-flight, freeze, rest and digest. And so freeze is literally, it’s a very old, they call it like a reptilian response. And it’s, it’s, it’s the response that people get where they like, play dead, they disassociate, they can’t handle it, they shut down, and you can go into flight, you can be constantly in and out of the fight, or flight, and eventually, it’s too much, and then you just start freezing. And, and, and you know, you don’t want to get off the couch, and you don’t want to interact, and you don’t want to do it, you just can’t you literally find yourself in like, I just can’t I can’t do this. I mean, think of the animals who play dead, right? Like my dog picked up a frog or a lizard. And it just like goes limp. in its mouth. I’m like, Oh, that’s the freeze response. Because it’s helping if. my dog thinks it’s dead, it’s not fun to play with, it’ll drop and leave it alone. Humans can do this too. So the freeze response and the fight-flight response are best managed by social activity in social interaction. That’s what research is showing social. So it’s, it doesn’t have to be like an extrovert thing. It’s the interaction with the person at the grocery store because they smile at you and they make eye contact with you. But now we can’t see smiles anymore. Those states still have masks mandates and for all of last year. It’s the hug that you give your family when you see them. Getting together sometimes with your friends socially, however, that looks like. And so when you get the social aspect of either somebody you just friendly at the store, or somebody who you care about love that helps can help routinely pull you out of the freeze, fight or flight. This is what they’re showing. It’s not a perfect world, because but it’s extremely helpful. Now you put a world on a pandemic, and you tell everyone you have to stay home and there’s you can’t go out when you go out you have to wear a mask and don’t look at anyone don’t touch anyone stays six feet from everyone. And which I understand. However, it applies to this, this theory is called the polyvagal theory. Now, a lot of people have moved more into this frozen state or they get more triggered into the fight or flight, they’re more triggered into stress. Because they don’t have their family and their friends and their neighbors and you know the thing like they couldn’t get their hair done. So they can talk to their hairdresser or their barber like they could even like like even little things like go see their dentist and again, like the dentist is in their best friend. But it was a friendly interaction. When you walk in, they say hi, you know. like you talk to your dentist or your doctor or your eye doctor or whatever it is. And it’s these little friendly interactions that happen throughout the day. And that’s what helps ground humans and we lost it for a year. And so that alone, when you mentioned that I was like oh yeah, that’s it’s going to affect is it is affected not going to it is affecting the statistics are showing. It’s affecting people. It’s why people are desperate for the world to open back up again. And they want right and they want they wanted they want to be able to see and hug and hang out with groups and gatherings larger than four are larger than 10 larger than 20. Because we need as humans we need that interaction. to some degree every human is different. But that’s what keeps us out of the freeze.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and also to I think that your there’s a cinder a Goldilocks zone for everything, like we need a certain amount of stress, right, we need to be able to be adaptive. We don’t want it on all the time. But in this instance, we don’t want to completely remove and not Stress our body whatsoever. You know that adage of just building your immune system in the sandbox, whatever, whatever happened to that? So, but that’s sort of what I was getting at carriers if we’re not in balance in terms of the Goldilocks zone, and we have a freeze response, and we have just maladaptive stress response. What is that tie into the immune system?   Dr. Carrie Jones: Oh, yeah, it just carries right over to the immune system, because our immune cells are responsive and reactive to all of those things, our immune cells, even just an autoimmune or our internal, the cells that we make behind our chest bone here in our thymus gland. Our body is really intelligent. So when it makes immune cells for us, it makes sure they’re not autoimmune. And so it runs it by a basically a fact-checker here behind our thymus gland and says, Hey, if you, you know, are you autoimmune? And if you are, if the body accidentally created an autoimmune cell that it has to get destroyed, because the body’s like, well, we can’t have autoimmune, that’s bad. And one of the things that helps trigger the destruction is the rise in cortisol in the morning. Well, if you don’t have a rise in cortisol, a healthy rise, if you’re flatlined, if you’re low, if you’re, you know, really tired and burned out, then you are at more risk for autoimmune. And even if you have autoimmune, you’re more at risk for progression. And so it’s these like little, it’s like a spider web. If you plunk one into the spider web, the whole spider web vibrates. And it’s the same. If you plunk part of the cortisol system, it’s gonna affect everything all the way over to your immune system. And, you know, we kind of need our immune system.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s kind of important. Yeah, absolutely. It’s interesting now, like when you know when I’m thinking you’re saying all this and then the art of interpreting hormone tests like the Dutch test, and seeing all these things, seeing Hey, there’s no awakening response, we know that’s problematic for immune dysregulation, your free is, is very low, we’re deactivating it, there’s a disconnect between your mind and your body, your metabolize This is okay. But when we look at your sex hormones, we see that your estrogen may be low or whatever. But yes, to actually build a customized recovery strategy that is so much more than just licorice root or things that you know, yeah, modulate that. So awesome information carry as far as I guess I get us to throw another just ending question in terms of what would be your I usually asked you what would you tell the younger carry? If you didn’t? If you knew what you knew now? What would you tell her back then that would have helped you with your health? Which I’m going to ask you that again? Yeah, you needed a slap in your 11 bait HSD face to know that you were not listening to what your body was telling you. So yeah, I guess what we what would be some of the words of advice that you would have told yourself but.   Dr. Carrie Jones: You know, so I think I said this last time like the way younger me I would have told to stop gluten back then I had the genes for celiac. And so I was on gluten off gluten through the years because of trial and different reasons. And then when I found out I have the genetics for it, I was like, oh, off gluten, got it. But I wish I would I would tell my younger self, don’t just go off of it. It’s going to fix your skin. It’s going to fix your hair, it’s going to fix your allergies like it’s going to fix everything just go off gluten soccer. But then like recent past me, I would have told, like, Hey, you should really probably work with somebody about that high achieving type a perfectionistic thing. It’s great. Like Goldilocks like it’s great in the day to accomplish what I need to accomplish. But when I do when I pull it when I pull you when I pull Joel and I’m still working at 1030 at night on my computer, and I do it consistently because I have deadlines and everything then I burnout and so I would have told you to know me in the last five to seven years, you’re as you get older you’re you are especially prone to burnout. So don’t do it. Knock it offset boundaries, take care of yourself building vacation that you don’t bring your computer and that’s what I’m having to learn as I get older.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, would you.   Dr. Carrie Jones: Think I know like I know intelligently No. But now it’s like really hit home.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, you’re still carrying your defense. There are so many opportunities to be overstimulated in so many different ways beyond any other time in history and because that’s our problem is we’re so wide and not very deep and we have so many plates that are spinning daily that we have to control and I think the real wise words are having someone’s outside eyes that is objective and isn’t going to be Su and just say hey look, knock it off. You have to do these things and have someone give you the insight because Your sphere of excellence is what we’re talking about. And you know, someone can coach you or teach you how to use your faults or your tendencies to get into that Goldilocks. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, awesome information.   Dr. Carrie Jones: I’ll need help. We all like we’re not all experts on everything we all need help.   Dr. Joel Rosen: We all need some Exactly. So what again, my audience probably knows you already but some people may not so how do we find out more about your social media and all the things you’re doing?   Dr. Carrie Jones: Instagram is the greatest place to find me. I’m at Dr. Carrie Jones. And then of course my website is Dr. Carrie Jones calm or you can go to Dutch test calm   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome, awesome. And I will post the notes and when I posted on my socials in my media so there’ll be able to link back to you, Carrie, this is part three part four hopefully will not be a couple of years maybe Lee you’ll be able to have your different places to get out of the cold weather and the rain in the rain. I appreciate everything you do. And thank you so much for being here and sharing your wealth of information.   Dr. Carrie Jones: Oh, Joe, I really appreciate it. The post Balance Hormones Free Cheap and Easy with Dr. Carrie Jones appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, hello, everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And today we’re in for a special treat. I’m here with a colleague of mine, Brendan Vermeire. He’s the founder and owner of metabolic solutions, which is an institute dedicated to educating health professionals and clinicians with cutting-edge strategies to best serve their clients and patients. Brandon is a functional medicine consultant, clinical researcher, board-certified holistic practitioner, Masters, nutrition coach, personal trainer, Master, personal trainer, sports performance coach, and CrossFit trainer when he’s not educating doctors and helping clients overcome their severe health struggles, Brendan enjoys things like fitness, and he’s probably going to be working out. He also enjoys anything in nature and activities that expand his heart, mind, and soul. So, Brandon, thank you so much for being here today.   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, Joel, thank you so much for having me, my friend. It means a lot. I love getting to have these types of conversations. And I think this is where a lot of the learning and the healing takes place. I’m excited to see where we go and share all this info with your audience.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, thank you so much. I feel the same way. And you know, one of the conversations we talked about before getting started was we should which areas should we get into because we can go into so many of them. And I think mental health and how it relates to our audience and their fatigue and burnout, and we see such an epidemic. So I’d like to go down that rabbit hole with you. But before we do, Brandon, why don’t you just share with our audience who may not know you and what you do just yet with your own personal experience and why you got into the area that you got into?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Joel. It’s a crazy story. And I’ll give the cliff notes of it because I have a background in fitness nutrition. And I actually joined the Navy after high school for the seal program. Because I was my life goal when I was young. And whether that was a great idea or not, who knows. But that was the dream at the time. And I was about halfway through boot camp when they found out an inguinal hernia. So they had to medically discharge me and send me home because it wasn’t their problem. They deemed it pre-existing. And so that was really, you know, a devastating blow for a young man trying to figure out life, you know, it’s either college or military workforce. And I chose the military that fell through. So I went back to my job, which was scrubbing toilets, a kind of janitorial work at the local health club that I worked out at constantly. And so it was kind of at this crossroads of trying to figure out well, do I go to college? And if so, what do I study, I was very passionate about fitness and nutrition. So that was kind of what was attractive. But fortunately, the Personal Training Manager at the gym that I worked at, you know, they all knew me really well, because I worked there, I worked out there I was pretty much always there. So they’re like, Hey, kid, like get certified as a trainer, we’ll give you a shot and see how it goes. So I got certified as a personal trainer and nutrition coach jumped into that career. And honestly, I got exposed to so many really cool objectives, you know, health-related sciences, nutritional biochemistry, metabolic physiology, exercise physiology. And I just really fell in love with understanding how the body really works internally and how we can optimize that through our lifestyle behaviors, or fitness or nutrition, so on and so forth. And so that was kind of a launching point. But then, you know, here I am a little over a decade later where now I’m regarded as the leading expert and authority with like functional medicine for mental health in particular. And the reason why mental health is such a near and dear subject My heart is I was first put on an antidepressant drug when I was 17. I was in high school, I was just doing a physical for sports. You know, there was no bloodwork no evaluation of any kind, it was just Hey, you’re, you know, seem to be a little bit depressed here Zoloft kid like hopefully, it doesn’t cause any, you know, undesirable side effects. So, you know, that was my first experience with psychiatric drugs at the age of 17. Whereas then it was you know when I was 18 and 19 that was really starting my career as a trainer and nutritionist. I didn’t officially get diagnosed until I was 21 with major depressive disorder and ADHD. And now, I was put on three more medications of Wellbutrin, Vyvanse, and Adderall so I was on a cocktail of these psychiatric drugs. And it was actually two weeks later that I intentionally overdosed on one of those drugs and woke up in the intensive care unit. Breathing out of a tube after being in a coma for like three days. So you know, that was I wish I could say that that was my rock bottom. But it actually kind of got worse from there because I was after basically a suicide attempt in a really toxic relationship, living in a water damage tome that hadn’t had mold, and I didn’t know anything about that at the time. So it was actually living in that environment, living in that toxic relationship, that toxic environment. That’s really where I hit rock bottom and was in that really dark place. And it’s like, well, you know, I had already tried killing myself, I didn’t really want to do that again, in the now my at the time partner, she was the canary in the coal mine and had a severe illness that nobody could figure out, we, you know, I could tell the whole story, but it’s the same story that everybody says with mold, it’s the nobody took them seriously, nobody could figure it out. Not a medical doctor, not a naturopath, not a chiropractor, nothing. So it was really trying to navigate that time in my life that sent me on this path that I am now of, you know, psychology and understanding what narcissism is. And you know what gaslighting is, and all these kinds of more psycho-emotional principles, or methylation, or mold illness are all these things. So it was me trying to save her, it was me trying to save myself, that set me on this path. And I’ve just really run with it for years and years. And now this is what I do for a living. So I think there’s a lot of healing that takes place when you learn how to take your pain and turn it into your purpose. And I like to think that I’ve kind of done that. And so that’s a big part of why I’m so passionate about what I do.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And great, thanks for sharing that. It’s always a humbling experience to look in the mirror and see where we’ve been, but at the same time, come out the other side and know that that’s your purpose. It’s interesting. Just a quick little aside, I graduated with my exercise physiology first degree, my first two years were so crappy Brandon because I was playing for the soccer team. And I was 19. And I was away from home for the first time and going to class was an elective. I mean, not even an elective was an elective. And, and so when I finished and I graduated, I was a personal trainer for a couple of years, and I injured my back and I thought, Okay, this is what I want to do, I want to become a chiropractic physician, my whole family was our traditional medical doctors. And I was always the sort of outlier and I didn’t want to follow in those footsteps. So when I went back to apply to the chiropractic college in Canada, it was not even close to what my GPA had to be. So I went back and got a second degree in psychology. And I loved psychology, I almost even forgot that I was going back to get a GPA to get higher, and just go into that into the psychology background. And what happened was, I ended up not getting in a second-year after I got my degree and it was all on a roll. And it was because of a technicality I was going to school part-time. And they didn’t because I had to work at this point. They didn’t consider part-time, something to boost your GPA had to be a full time I wish I would read it read the small print. And I thought oh, what a waste the time I spent almost a year and a half, two years getting this psychology degree. And I could have just gone to the states and taken some fast-track accelerated courses and not get a second degree but how wrong I was Brandon in terms of now when I help people and I help them with functional medicine, integrative nutrigenomic exercise physiology. I mean, I had a CSCs certified strength and conditioning specialist. So that’s a people don’t know, that’s a pretty badass, you know, certification. But this psychology was huge because it’s a huge component, of what you’ve just alluded to. So why don’t we go down that in terms of if someone’s exhausted and burnt out? Yeah, I hear about a positive mental attitude and why it’s important. But that’s like, what’s the real, I guess? Why is it so important? How does it impact our physiology? And why do why is it an essential component to what you learned? And now what you teach?   Brendan Vermeire: Absolutely, it’s, it’s a pleasure to talk about that kind of stuff because I try and give myself too much credit, but I would say I’m pretty mentally resilient. Dude. I mean, I’ve put myself through a few things that tested me on kind of the deepest level possible. And, you know, when you look at it, it’s kind of interesting, looking at my own career from you know, the outside because it is very niched into the neuroscience of mental illness, the physiology, and you know, if you follow me on social media and kind of look at my content, it feels like it’s very more kind of the clinical medical side of mental This will help. But if you pay close enough attention, what you’ll really see that I tried to connect is, honestly, I think the physiology, which I’m sure we’ll get more into. To me, that’s like the easy part. Like if you know what to do, if you know how to put in the right input signals and remove the wrong input signals, your tissues, whether that’s your neurons or whatever, it will start healing. But my point is, I think the psychological, psycho-emotional healing journey is so much harder. You know, that’s mental resilience, that’s mental fortitude. And that’s not something that you can find in a pill, or a therapy appointment, or anything. That’s, that’s a journey within. And I really believe, I mean, people like you look at the fact that suicide is one of the top leading causes of death, at least for Americans speaking for America right now. It’s the 10th leading cause of death for overall Americans, it’s the second leading cause of death for ages 10 to 34, the fourth leading cause of death for 35 to 55. All times is number seven. And we know through the literature that, you know, acute neuroinflammation causes more like depression, anxiety, kind of symptomatology, long term chronic neuroinflammation leads to neurodegenerative disease. So we know of this from epidemiological research and mechanistic research and all these different forms of research, but ultimately, the psycho-emotional side, and how do you overcome your own psychological hurdles and barriers, that’s just a different thing entirely. And you can consume all the free content on social media, read all the self-health help books, but until you really dive deep within and start digging through your own dark shit, and facing it head-on and being kind of a bit of a savage to tackle it and overcome it. Nobody can do that work for you. And that’s the hardest part. And so, you know, that’s where it’s like, sure I do all this cool stuff. Because my goal is to make it easier for other people Sure, take these supplements makes these lifestyle modifications, it’ll at least reduce the neuroinflammatory burden that makes the psychological journey easier. But at some point, you got to be willing to face yourself and everybody would much rather distract themselves and look externally than face themselves internally.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great answer. And I agree with you, I agree that health in that concept is easy. If you don’t have enough of something you need, or you have too much of something you don’t need, you need to balance those. And for our audience, that’s how our body has been engineered in terms of homeostasis, and that’s our stress response system. And ultimately, it should be turned on when needed and turned off. And we have activity and then we recover. But obviously, that’s not happening. And I would agree with you. It’s that the intangibles, the glue that really runs the system, which is the mental component and putting all the puzzle pieces together. Just as an aside, Brandon, when I do a functional nutritional genomic assessment, I always look for the very first gene that we look for is the O x tr empathy gene, where basically the oxytocin receptor has been shown in clinical research, if there are some challenges there that that person is potentially going to potentially doesn’t mean full-blown. But potentially, and when you ask them, It’s uncanny. Hey, like Mrs. Jones, they’re potentially going to be more of an empath or more of stimuli impacts them greater and they internalize things, they’re more willing to listen, people can take advantage of them. They don’t know how to say no, they don’t time block their time. And ultimately, they get way more impacted by the environment than the average person. And if they’re not balancing the things too much that they need, or the things too little that they don’t have. And they have that, let alone if they are balancing the things and they have that so I always start with that. So I think it’s really important in that context. So as far as one of the things we talked about is neuroplasticity, and how the environment is almost working against us with the influencers of excited Tory things like glutamate, and histamine. So, how does the environment with the environmental exposures and specifically what kind of things will impact what actually it means to neuroplasticity? Maybe you can start there. And then how does that impact our mental health?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, it’s a huge question, but I think one We can give a relatively simple analogy for that, hopefully, light bulbs go off. And this changes the way your audience thinks about mental health forever. Because, you know, we personal trainer science one on one, right specific adaptations to imposed demand. That’s, that’s like the very first thing you learn as a fitness professional. And of course, it’s more in this sort of reductionistic, like, oh, if we want big biceps, we put mechanical tension on the biceps and time understand attention to create the damn, you know, but that same principle applies to every tissue in the body. And so my point being This is why I talk more in terms of input signals, if you want healthy tissue, you have to give it healthy input signals, if you want unhealthy disease, dysfunctional tissue, you put in unhealthy signals, right. And so then with I think, what makes mental health a little bit more confusing and challenging, you know, where it’s like your liver or your heart, it’s an organ, it doesn’t have sentience, right. It’s just tissue, it pumps it does its thing. But when we’re talking about your brain, this is kind of the house of your soul in a lot of ways. It’s, it’s the temple of sentience itself. So then we are kind of met with this duality of Well, there’s the psychological side of it, and more than mine to the body, but then there’s the physiological of the body to the mind. And it’s going both ways. So we have to change the psychological input signals through your psycho-emotional environment. But we also have to change the physiological input signals through our literal physical environment. So when you start considering this is, you know, arguably, I’m sure like some, you know, conventional-minded doctors might, you know, get upset about this. But if we think about, kind of simplistically, the analogy, if you think about your brain as a forest, okay? acute inflammation is healing, right? Acute inflammation is how we fight off pathogens, and we remodeled tissues, but chronic inflammation or inflammation that’s just brewing out of control. It’s just like a forest fire that’s burning out of control. So if you think about your brain as that forest, and you think about a chronic forest fire, that’s really what’s going on in most people’s brains that are living a modern lifestyle, right? We’re so disconnected from our natural roots. We don’t get enough nature, we don’t get enough sunshine, we don’t get enough movement. We don’t get enough good sleep, or hydration or nutrient-dense foods, social time. social isolation is a huge one. So when you look at all of the just facts about the modern lifestyle, it is so disruptive to our neurology to our neurochemistry and our neuroplasticity, which is the formation of new neural networks period. So our neurons are constantly changing the way that they’re wired to basically learn new habits, belief systems, behaviors, skills, so on and so forth. So this is why, you know, geriatric patients with dementia are encouraged to do puzzles in exercise because that stimulates neuroplasticity and neurogenesis and it delays the neurodegeneration. But we can apply that same very true validated ideology to just learning how to re-sculpt our brain. So if you think about neurogenesis and neuroplasticity as like new trees and plants growing in the forest, and they’re growing together and changing the way that they’re connected, versus neuroinflammation as that chronic forest fire, it kind of becomes a balancing act of how much neuroplasticity neurogenesis versus how much neuroinflammation and excitotoxicity like you’re talking about with glutamate, so then when you start looking at what kind of factors are going to cause an imbalance with that, that scale or that that balancing act of homeostasis in the brain? We start looking at like, insulin resistance and hyperglycemia drives neuroinflammation and neurodegeneration. You know, now they’re starting to call Alzheimer’s type three diabetes, or, you know, you look at all the oxidants and the toxic and the metals, the Phalates, and parabens and environmental toxins or mitochondrial dysfunction or stress being probably the most obvious big one stress being a primer for the immune system of the brain, nutrient insufficiencies pathogens. So basically you start looking at the standard modern American lifestyle, and diet, let alone the sociological psychology of living in the matrix world where everything censored and propaganda and all this social isolation nonsense. Like, we don’t even really stand a chance from a neuro neurological, psychological mental health perspective, because we are just fighting this crazy uphill battle. But then all the while we have so much control over this, we have so much control over those input signals. But this is why it’s so important to understand this stuff conceptually because Once you realize you mostly have control of the vast majority of those input signals, you can start making those changes with your lifestyle, your environment, your social environment to start giving your body more of what it needs. So we can grow new brain cells in, you know, new neural connections that make you feel better.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s true. And I love that you say that you ultimately have control because you do have control. And a lot of the times when I did a lot of the funk Neuros stuff in the house where you would balance the hemispheres do eye movements, do proprioception activity, or doing cerebellar work. We had a saying, Brendon, it’s like, it’s, it’s kind of like a catch 22 It keeps us in business because the environment has impacted neural plasticity and the brain. And I wouldn’t say that’s the good news. But we have a starving crowd if you will. But the bad news is they’re starving. The bad news is that they have brain challenges. And it becomes super impactful. Because if you don’t realize it’s happening, or you don’t realize the physiological impact, or most importantly, you don’t realize you have control over it, you have that triple whammy for sure. And the other thing I wrote down is, is the word disconnected. I think this connection is such a huge problem, especially with everything you said, with all the stuff that’s going on, we spread ourselves so wide. And you know, I have I’m as guilty as everyone I have 17 windows opened up in the background, and I’m, you know, I’m micromanaging, all of those things. But each one of those things keeps my disk connected in each of them. And then I’m not connected in any of them. And I find that to be true in just being present. You know, being present when you talk to someone turning off your phone, being fully engaged in what they’re talking about. Just listening and hearing what they say. And being a soundboard for them. How often does that happen? It just doesn’t happen anymore in today’s day and age. And So anyway, so as far as an act, as far as your, what do you see as the best way to now circumvent that or, or empower someone now that they know, hey, you have total control over this? And yes, it’s beyond the point of it’s, it’s just ominous. It’s there all the time. But you have control, Mrs. Jones? So how do you teach that? Brandon, what do you do for someone to know that we understand that mental health is such a big component? How do we empower that person?   Brendan Vermeire: You know, it can, it can sometimes be a really hard thing because I think a lot of people, as you said, are very disconnected from the world around them. You know, we’re so plugged in and connected to a million things all the time. And yet we’re so disconnected from ourselves, we’re so disconnected from our heart, let alone being connected to others. And of course, you know, the quarantine and social isolation and everything going on with COVID are not helping any of that it is making it that much harder. But you know, it really is like that movie, The Matrix-like we are all just so plugged in. And first, we have to wake up. And it is just like Neo in the matrix. It’s a very unpleasant awakening where you open up that tube and you’re looking around of oh my gosh, machines run the world and everybody is asleep and they don’t even know it. And they’re living in this fantasy. You know, kind of dystopian dystopia virtual reality thing. I like that movie. Ready Player One, that’s another one that’s kind of cute, and maybe a little bit less dark than the matrix. Nonetheless, I tried to bring a little bit of fun to this topic. I mean, for one thing, can still function without fun. But, you know, when you’re talking to Mrs. Jones, or whoever it is, I find a lot of times these people they’re so lost within themselves. And I think they need they need a wake-up. But they don’t need that harsh wake up to this dark cynical reality they need to realize that you can choose like the natural world of nature and animals and mindfulness and presence in bliss with the universe and go watch that sunset. Or you can choose that dark, scary matrix world. And it’s Which one do you want to plug into? Right? I mean, how much of our mental health would improve if we just disconnected from the internet for a week and when camping or laid on the beach in Hawaii or whatever it is, right? And of course, I know vacation and whatever might not always be feasible, but the point is, you know you have control over what You’re putting in your body of control of how you move your body have control over the rest you give your body you have control over what you’re feeding your mind. Are you consuming mainstream media that’s making it doom and gloom and everything? So this is where we have to kind of gently pull them out of that sort of slumber. And what do you want for yourself? And how can we start creating that beautiful life experience right here right now? And I find a lot of it is disconnecting from a lot of bad stuff. And let’s start reconnecting with the good. But this is where, of course, too, I have to point out that, as I’m sure you can appreciate in our industry, functional medicine and Integrative Health, everybody kind of wants that quick fix instant gratification. Addiction is a very real thing. So it’s, you know, what lab testing do I do? What’s the protocol to make that go away, like what drugs cover up those symptoms are what supplements, you know, treat that root cause anything to avoid having to do the real work, which is actually changing the behavior, changing the environment, changing the lifestyle, changing the belief system, right. And that’s where the real work is. Because Sure, there are some great psychiatric drugs, and like, just because I’m functional, I’m not anti pharmaceutical, I think there are some really awesome psychiatric drugs that are currently available that are coming down to the pharmaceutical pipeline. I think they’re great to kind of sometimes. And there are all sorts of natural things like psychedelics is a huge area of research. And I think that’s an amazingly powerful therapeutic tool. But you can do all the pharmaceuticals or supplements or drugs or whatever. But if you’re not doing anything to change the belief system in the environment in the lifestyle, you’re still just fighting an uphill battle. So really mastered the fundamentals. And some of that can help along the way.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, awesome, awesome answer for sure. And unpleasing awakening is so true, in terms of, you know, people have that the I want to plant the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, wake up, and everything’s done. But the reality is, is that it’s going to take work. And that cognitive dissonance was a really big word for me when I first learned that, and I remember the professor saying, the cognitive dissonance had a little bit of a, an asterisk on it, it said, you know, Misery likes company, as long as the company is miserable as well. And ultimately, what happens is, I believe what happens is, people have an inner feeling of I know this is wrong when they do a behavior. So they can either change the behavior and be congruent with the inner feeling. So that turmoil goes away, or they rationalize it, oh, it’s not really that bad, and they continue doing it. And that’s the unpleasant awakening that we’re talking about. And bringing back the progressive overload to impose demands. If you’d go too quick, too fast with whatever behavior change you’re doing. That’s what they call a withdrawal, or you’ve built up a chemical tolerance. And you’ll have some major challenges. It doesn’t have to be unpleasant. But you have to be able to start that process. And ultimately, look at the end goal, and reverse engineer, and multi-steps, and not start with that end goal. And I think people’s eyes are bigger than their stomach, and then they quit before they even begin. And the last thing I’ll say, too, is with stress, and overwhelm, and plasticity, that frontal lobe almost doesn’t even fire anymore. And it’s just bombarded with cortisol, you’re in that primitive brain. And the amygdala is already characterizing that stress event when it really wasn’t even that stressful, and it creates way more stress than it was. And they don’t have that sequential planning. Brendon, in terms of Okay, Mrs. Jones, what would you be doing if this wasn’t a problem? And they look at you like, What kind of question is that? I mean, I have, I’m looking at the back, like, with the problems that I’ve been, I’m looking ahead to that I don’t even know what that would be. And I think that’s key in terms of if you didn’t have this problem, how are we going to benchmark your improvements, not from moving away from the things that you have, but moving towards this thing that you don’t have? So you can keep that in perspective? So maybe, talk about that in terms because I think that’s really what you’re saying, too, is that being able to give and empower the people that are really suffering goals or outcomes or specific measurable milestones that they need to start to embrace versus the pain or the micromanaging. Does it make sense what I’m asking you?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, absolutely. I think that was all really well said my friend cuz and I love you know the name of your podcast and everything because you know stress is a very well-established risk factor for developing mental illness and neurodegenerative disease. And you know, through the emerging literature, we’re starting to now understand how chronic HPA dysregulation causes this priming effect on the body and this priming effect of the center of the immune system. So then if there is some sort of immune challenge, whether it’s a stealth infection, like Lyme or mold, or it’s a virus, or whatever it is, boom, it’s the immune system is primed and ready for a much more exaggerated robust inflammatory response. And so when you factor in how stress chronically stressed everybody is, plus how nutrient insufficient they are from depleted soil and processed food, and then they’re diabetic and they’re overweight, that’s all boosting inflammation. You know, this is why the current virus ripped through America, the way it did in America’s so metabolically unhealthy and unfit and overweight and stressed out and all these things in so this is where, you know, we have to change behaviors. And to your point that and again, this is the deeper and deeper I get into this and some of the cases I work with. Yeah, like I wish I had a medical license, I could prescribe certain things just to take the edge off, right, which is ultimately what the drugs are for, but now we’re in this overreliant sort of situation. But yeah, if we can, at least if we were reviewing one of your case studies, and we talked about that of maybe this person needs a drug just to help get over that hump a little bit. Because changing behaviors, that’s a long-term thing. And with my background in nutrition and fitness coaching, which had a heavy dose of behavior modification, client-centered coaching, I feel that’s a really grossly missing piece. In functional medicine, we don’t really do a whole lot with trying to help induce effective behavior modification. But think about what we’re talking about. Like, wait for a second, didn’t you say that neuroplasticity is how we create new behaviors? Well, yeah, exactly. learning new skills, learning new belief systems, learning new behaviors, we’re changing the way that your neurons are communicating with one another, to encourage or discourage certain behaviors. And so this is why one of many reasons why it’s such an important concept to understand. Because part of it. So back in the day with personal training, all right, you know, most clients where they want, they want to lose weight. All right. So how do you measure progress? Because we have to have some sort of measurement that’s going to be objectively showing us? Are we making progress or not? Do we need to change your program or not based on progress? Oh, okay. Well, I want to weigh myself on the scale. Okay. Well, we all know, most of us know that the scale is a really crappy way to measure progress in weight loss. So this is what got me in the lab testing, I was like, no, we’re not using the scale in weight to measure progress. We’re using blood chemistry because I guarantee you that your internal biomarkers are going to change long before the scale changes long before the way your clothes fit long before you feel like you’re in a better place. Mentally, those biomarkers are going to be the most sensitive way to measure progress along with body fat, or vo to testing and some of that cool stuff. But the point being, we have to have some sort of objective feedback that gives our neural limbic system, the sense of reward for our effort, the brain is wired in, evolved through the millennia to encourage us to develop neural networks that lead to reward because reward leads to survival, longevity, you know, you’re thriving, not just surviving. So at a very primitive level, our body is wired to go in the direction of what feels like a reward. So think of it like this, if you’re trying to lose weight, and you’re weighing yourself on the scale every day expecting it to go down to pound every week, or whatever. And it’s not where you’re expending all of this effort, you’re going out of your way to go to the gym, you’re working hard in the gym, you’re restricting yourself in the kitchen, and you know, restrictive dieting and whatnot, that’s unpleasant. Your body doesn’t want to do that. So then when you step on the scale, and it tells you Oh, actually, you gained a pound this week, they freak out, and they lose themselves psychologically. But part of that is why would the brain encourage you to keep doing that if you’re not getting what seems to be a reward? So a big part of success is understanding this. And understanding behavior modification takes time, and we need an effective way to assess progress both objectively and subjectively. And usually, the metric that people won’t like how my jeans fit or the number on the scale or whatever, that’s a really poor way to measure progress, we need to find something else that shows us, hey, you are making progress. There’s that reward for your neural limbic system. Now our brain is going to create the neural networks to encourage that behavior modification that then turns into a habit that you don’t have to think about.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. I mean, I already wrote down here on my page, part two, because I want to get into biomarkers and but what I really love about what you just said, there is behavior modification, with positive reinforcements, with seeing the big picture, but measuring yourself with the small, winnable, achievable momentum that really moves the needle, because a lot of the times to Brandon, it’s, you’re right, they’re not even looking at the important markers that will dictate or indicate improvements. They’re looking at the 30,000 view foot level. And I tell people like it’s almost the analogy of when you go for an X-ray, I think there has to be like 70 to 80% bone diminishment to appreciate it on the X-ray. So what’s that, that’s telling you that at 69, or whatever the number is, it’s not seen? And then all of a sudden, I cannot believe it out of now here, I just have low bone density. It’s like, no, it’s been building up for a while. And ultimately, you’re looking at macro things, missing the shades of gray along the way. So it’s an awesome, awesome thing that you’re talking about. So as far as some of the important biomarkers, because I do feel that those biomarkers are important. You mentioned how insulin and glucose will drive up neuroinflammation, ultimately, heart rate variability, and that’s a measure of stress that you could look at. The challenge though, with some of my clients was okay if I give them too many things. Now they’re on My Fitness Pal or chronometer, and they tracking their calories. And then they’re looking, it’s like, oh, it’s too much already. So how do you balance because that seems to be the theme of our podcast today is the Cinderella Goldilocks zone of not too little, and making sure you have enough stress that impacts your body, but not too much stress that it overwhelms you. Same thing with data tracking or biomarkers? Or how would you go about setting up, a protocol or a program for that person who wants to see those shades of Gray’s along the way? And they’re looking at certain biomarkers?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, you know, there’s the way that I like to assess progress myself. But then, of course, we always have to cater to the psychology of the client or the patient. So what resonates with them of how do they want to track progress? Now, a lot of the time, as I said, they typically are going to pick something that’s probably not really a great metric for tracking progress. So we kind of have to reverse engineer and motivational interview them to finding something that maybe is going to be a little bit better. So like with, you know, back in the early stages of my career with personal training, nutrition coaching, of course, they’re like, I would ask them that, like, how do you want to track progress? And they’re like, well, the scale, obviously, because I want to lose 50 pounds in the next two months, or whatever I’m like, Okay, so here’s why we’re not going to do that. I have a better idea. Like, how about we use vo to testing so we can see that you’re getting more aerobically cardiovascular fit, you can take in more oxygen to burn, you know, fat, which is kind of what you want, right? Or how about we use, you know, very sensitive blood work. Now with that, usually, with like lab testing and biomarkers, I don’t want the client to be worried about the minutiae, right, like I don’t need them worrying about the details, I need them focused on the behaviors and mindfulness and staying in tune with themselves and being in tune with their biofeedback in their body. So a lot of times, it’s kind of like, well let need to track the bloodwork and the biomarkers, because then they get hyper-focused on the stuff of like, in that leads to silly behaviors. So what I always like to do, kind of not letting them see some that so that way down the road, 234 months, whatever, when we do that retest, I can show them very black and white, like, Look, your glucose went from 120 to 90 and your insulin went from 12 to seven and your triglycerides and you know, whatever. So just some of those basic metabolic parameters. And then, of course, you know, this is almost a simplistic metabolic health. But if we kind of think about something more complex, like mold illness or lime, or let’s say autoimmunity, right, like tracking their antibodies to make sure the antibodies are going in the right direction. So I think it needs to be a conversation with the client or patient kind of mutually agreeing on what are the metrics we most care about. Now that’s the objective with like biomarkers and lab testing, but subjects Actively, I use a questionnaire in my practice where essentially, they fill it out to denote how satisfied they are with each area of their life, you know, their financial satisfaction, their interpersonal, their romantic, their, you know, kind of physical, so on and so forth. And I like using that, like every six months or so. And I don’t let them see the original. So that way, when they redo it, they can see like, Oh, look, you scored that you’re much more happy and satisfied with all these things. So that way, like, let’s say the scale hasn’t moved at all. But we have all these biomarkers that have gone in the right direction, their subjective fulfillment with their life has gone in the right direction. So it’s like, what are we really trying to accomplish here? Do you know what I mean?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I learned that early cuz I like I, when I graduated with my first degree, I was a personal trainer. And, and I was frustrated by how selective amnesia these put these clients were in terms of their results and not appreciating them. And it’s not so much they don’t appreciate them. They’re just, it’s not being a guest. inhaled and, I guess, impactful on their life. And I think that’s really important. Because a lot of the time, I already know, before I work with someone, it’s gonna be a hard thing. And I’d say to get their results, and that’s because they don’t know what they want, right? They know what they don’t want, but they don’t know what they want. And I think it’s really important. So what I’ll do is I’ll have them start with sort of the blueprint of here’s your, your major susceptibilities. And here’s how the environment overlaps with that, then here’s all of this past, I guess, past measurable questionnaires in terms of your perception of stress. And, and we can change your perception of stress, or your major life events so that you’re not being an ostrich and putting your head in the sand. And like you said, just avoiding them. I mean, if you Those are going to come back, if something’s not being extinguished, it’s going to come back and be set ablaze. And then ultimately, as you said, figure out what those areas and I like four areas, Brandon, I like self-health. So whatever that’s defined as family and it doesn’t have to be immediate family, but support systems. And then Community and Social, which is a is now a pillar that’s not that’s been just crumbled to the ground with everything that we’ve been through. And then the fourth one is just their, their purpose or their higher calling, or what gives them energy when they wouldn’t have to get paid at all. And they would do that. So then that way, they can benchmark their improvements to that. And then you could put in those biomarkers of Hey, your insulins at 13, we need to get it at you know, less than one or less than three, so that we can know that we’re making progress. But I’ll worry about that. I love that you said that. I’ll worry about that. Mrs. Jones, you stop micromanaging, you could be in the front seat with us. And you could be you know, making sure that you where the drive is, is comfortable, and it’s going the way it should. But we don’t want to give you that stress of the minutiae of having a balance. So that’s, that’s awesome information that you said there. So as far as tools, I know that I’ve used now, it’s like a breathing device that you clip to your ear, I forget the name of it, but it helps with synchronizing your heart frequency with your breath. That’s awesome to be quite honest with you. And the interesting thing is, I’m completely neurotic. I have like a CGM thing on here right now. And the more I do that, with the breathing, the better my glucose control is, which is quite amazing. And then ultimately, I have something called the brain tap, which is amazing for helping with getting your wavelengths to change from a stressful beta wavelength to a more Delta or theta wavelength. But do you have any hacks or suggestions in terms of tools that people can do to slow down that mental activity?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, you know, these days, there’s so many cool gadgets or things and ultimately, I am going to advocate for whatever is going to help that individual gain mindfulness in their meat suit in their soul in stay connected within. So I’m a little bit cautious about some of the gadgets and gizmos because sometimes I think it can be kind of externally pulling in almost distracting, but it depends I personally I’m not a gadget guy. I don’t want to track data every single day. For example, I’ve been having some blood pressure issues myself lately and I was starting to monitor my blood pressure neurotically and it was messing with my head. It was making me stressed and fearful. It was like all I could think about and whatever. And it’s like, Okay, stop measuring calm down that stress response. And also my blood pressure looks great. So, you know, sometimes if we hang on too tightly to that external data, it almost is counterproductive. But it’s very contextual, it depends on the situation. So you know, if wearing that aura ring helps you track your sleep and your HRV. And that makes it a little bit more mindful, then great do that. Or if some people like to food journal to develop more mindfulness towards nutrition, or whatever it is, I personally, want to try to get them in tune with themselves. So you know, whether that’s journaling and making note of how their symptoms are changing, or what did they do differently? Or what are they grateful for? So I tried to do more mindfulness-related practices. But hey, you know, I think HRV is cool. I think those continuous glucose monitors are really, really cool. So obviously, like a diabetic, for example, they obviously just have never learned the life skill of knowing how to really keep their blood sugar under control. And it’s not always their fault. Sometimes it’s just a skill that they don’t yet have that continuous glucose monitor, it’s probably gonna help them develop a lot of mindfulness towards their nutrition, and they can track their blood glucose, to be able to learn that new skills. So it’s like training wheels. Sometimes you need the gadgets and gizmos in the data as that training wheels provide that external feedback, but the goal, nobody wants to ride a bike with training wheels forever. So at some point, once you’re ready, you take those training wheels off and go by feel.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s an awesome answer. At the end of the day, I’m totally in alignment with you, it’s all about the results, and having lifestyle changes that support your being in that Goldilocks zone. So it’s actually part of your lifestyle. So I would totally echo that with you, for sure. I like the idea, however, again, of not micromanaging those biomarkers, but having a paradigm shift of those biomarkers. So the paradigm shift is how many people you and I work with that are chronically ill or depleted and have no quality of life that come and see you and say, Hey, Brandon, the doctor says my blood tests are normal, that has to change, right? That because of the paradigm that they’re not normal, but we’re not looking at the right thing. So perhaps we need some better surrogate markers that we don’t have to micromanage on a day to day, but we set up the metaphorical or literal dashboard of our health. And it’s put in with different numbers that are quantitative that are qualitative, that don’t need to be measured every single day with the importance of are you getting closer to the defined set of things that will make you happy and your health in your you know, so I think that’s awesome information. As I said, I could talk to you forever about this as far as, as far as any specific I know, you’re big into exercise yourself. As far as how big of a role is that? I’ll say this first I was really big into exercise. And it was one of the reasons I actually burnt out, you know, obsessive-compulsive and too much. And I recently said, You know what, I gotta just get back into shape. So I went from just recently I was at 20%. And now I’m at 14% body fat. My goal, my goal is to get down to 10% I’ve never been 10%. But I hired someone to help me with it. It was really interesting. I said, you know, it’s been tough. I haven’t been able to get down there. I know what I need to do. I’m just not doing it. And one of the things they said to me is like well, we find that when you want to lose body fat and if you want to get to 10% you would have to eat like someone that is 10% and I thought oh my gosh, I’m not eating like someone that’s 10% so that made a big impact for me. It made me that much more decisive when I’m tracking my macros because it makes me aware of that but as far as for you. What’s been your secret to longevity and health and staying at a weight that you’re healthy with or happy with or oscillating up and down depending on your goals. What are some of the how do you console consistently? And what are some of the tricks of the trade for your success from practicing what you preach?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, you know, I think just like anything, you get better with time, you know, it’s a skill and as you master the skill set and you just ingrain that into your soul because it’s kind of funny how when I first became fitness nutrition professional, my health got worse, not better because I exposure to some of the science. So, I used to count all my macros weigh all my food, count the calories and macros and log all the food and journal my exercise. It was all very neurotic and obsessive and that caused a lot of stress. And a lot of it back then was fueled out of basically self-loathing and self-hate. You know, I didn’t like myself. So it was this intense regimen to try to turn me into something I liked better. Whereas like, you contrast that to where I am today, like a decade later, where everything I do is out of self-love and self-respect. So that’s the more important takeaway is the paradigm shifted from what I’m doing is motivated out of self-hatred and loathing to now what I’m doing is out of self-respect, and self-love, and you can’t love and you can’t practice, like self-love without self-respect. And you know, like, oh, I’m gonna indulge in all this crap food because I love my No, no, no, no, that’s, that’s something else. You have to practice self-respect. If you respect yourself, you do what your body is needing. And you know, that doesn’t always mean working out. Right. So that’s the thing I rest more now than I ever have in my life. I work out less now than I ever have in my life, I used to train a lot and train hard. But again, it’s learning how to listen to my body and give it what it’s calling for, whether that’s extra sleep, or extra calories, even though Oh, no, I’m not supposed to eat more calories. Well, that’s what my body is calling for. And this is that level of mindfulness and intuitive eating intuitive exercise, intuitive living, that it takes time to gain that type of intuition. And, and it is a long journey. But I think by implementing a lot of things and paradigm shifts that we’re talking about in this conversation, anybody can do it, I really do believe that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, it’s, it’s amazing. So many things are going off in my head. But ultimately, I look about that congruency or the resonance of understanding your body at the cellular level. And, and what happens at the cellular level, which you mentioned earlier, really does happen at the 30,000 views, foot level. And like any relationship, if it’s gonna be successful, if there’s a communication breakdown, that’s where I think David Sinclair talks about communication breakdown is basically aging. That’s what aging is, is when the body break breaks down in its communication. And ultimately, what it comes down to is, science is showing that it’s not the brain or the gut, or the nervous system, or the immune system, it’s all the same. And I think the more you know, yourself, the more you understand, everything’s communicating, and you’re living in that perfect amount of sympathetic parasympathetic balance, which is super key. And, again, I hope that you’re you’ll agree to come back again, to another podcast, because and soon because I want to get into that rabbit hole of understanding self-love, and your personality trait, what’s it called the anagram or enneagram. Yeah, so I just did that. The other day, it was really interesting, I had a consult with a potential client, and she told me straight up, your personality does not meet my personality, and like, Okay, and then she’s like, you’re probably two or three. And I’m this. And I’m like, I had no idea what she was talking about. So I took that course. And it was like being hit over the head with a baseball bat because you do as a health provider. And we talk about that, that more empathic potential, where you cut your nose off to spite your own face. And there’s a lot of issues with that. In fact, you’re not holding integrity when you think you are. And that was an aha, like, I thought I was being selfless, I was being helpful for other people, but really at the expense of myself, which is being selfish for myself, or selfish for not getting healthy, whatever, however, you want to mention it. So I think that’s huge. And I would love to explore that with you a little bit further. If we have another time to go through that. But any words of wisdom on that in terms of how you feel about that, or as far as being able to take that information and use it constructively versus because it is painful, right? It’s a painful thing to look at is flawed. And you’re right, people just don’t want that uncomfortable behavior change. It’s easier to convince themselves that it’s not a problem until it is a major problem. But I guess what’s the way to overcome that fear or that that you know, that harsh reality of the things we don’t want to approach because they’re painful, but at the same time? They’re halting our progress?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it’d be a pleasure to have a part two anytime my friend and you know that that’s where I was saying earlier. that inner work is easily the hardest. And I think as I just touched on, you know, really getting brutally honest with yourself and asking yourself, what is it that’s motivating me Is it because I don’t like myself. And that’s why I’m doing this diet or this functional medicine program or that protocol or doing this or doing that we are we kind of distract ourselves externally chasing all these things to disguise ourselves and convince ourselves that we are doing something good for ourselves, all the while avoiding really facing ourselves. And so when you actually look within and recognize, wow, I’m not really doing any of this out of self-love or respect, you got to start digging into why, you know, and you pull that thread, you’re gonna start digging into your unresolved traumas from the past, which is a whole other subject to get into. But ultimately, why why why do you not think you’re worthy enough? Why do you not think you’re lovable? And that really gets into your conditioning from the past, if somebody else made you feel unlovable somebody made you feel unwanted, somebody convinced you that you’re not worthy, and you’ve been telling yourself that same narrative for decades, and you didn’t even know it? It’s not even your voice that’s on repeat in your soul, it’s somebody else’s voice. So you have to go digging way back into your past and figure out who made that inner child version of yourself feel that way? And how can you change that narrative and kind of heal that inner child, and then you can grow into the adult that you’re, you know, kind of meant to be?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, such words of wisdom, I can’t remember what the story was, but I’m going to butcher it anyway. So Buddha was sitting underneath the tree and one of them, the town, critics kept saying how bad Buddha was, and not the real deal. And this guy was the real deal. And then so he went to go visit Buddha and telling Buddha how terrible he was, and how awful he was. And Buddha didn’t say anything. And then the critic was saying, Well, why why are you not saying anything? And he said, Well, listen, let me ask you a question. If you give me if I gave you a present, and you refuse to accept it, who does that present belong to? And he said, Oh, it must belong to you still? And he said, exactly. Right. So that’s the point is we don’t have to accept the the the gifts or the atrocities or we don’t have to accept that. So it’s part of the strategy as well, too, in terms of identifying it be, you know, changing the narrative, see, not having to accept it. And, you know, ultimately, those are huge. Those are really huge. Thank you so much for being here. So one of the questions I always ask in parting is, if you were to know or have the sage-like information that you have now for the younger, I always say the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Brendan, who went through some challenges. And it’s kind of like one of those butterfly effects. If you could change it, you wouldn’t be here because this is what gave you your scars of beauty to be able to do this. So it’s a sort of a loaded question. But with that being said, without anything changing, what would you have told the more bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Brennan, the sage, like wisdom advice for health or from getting further faster, or just having a more fulfilling shot, you know, just growth curve? What were those words of wisdom be?   Brendan Vermeire: You know, little boy, Brandon, he was a cool kid. And it is a little sad that you know what he went through. But what he turned into I think is okay, and I’m pretty content with myself these days. But you know, if I could I think about that a lot. I think about it often. And I think about you know, if I could go sit with a little kid Brendon for a while, you know, I’d pat him on the back and so on. Don’t take yourself too seriously. Lighten up. Don’t take life that certainly doesn’t pay any attention or mind to what anybody else is doing or saying. Do what feels right deep in your gut. Have fun and really enjoy the beautiful journey of life even with the really painful parts because it just adds more vibrance to the beauty and makes the sunshine that much brighter. So you know, just some kind of ancient wisdom sort of things to steer that kid straight, you know?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’d be great advice, especially the patting him on the back and letting him know to pat himself on the back. Because I find people don’t do that enough with small little victories. They’re very quick to tell about their flaws. And you know that words of wisdom about, hey, if you talk to other people, the way you talk to yourself, you wouldn’t have a lot of friends, right? So you have to change that talk. But I like that’s an awesome answer. So how do my audience that is not aware of necessarily your work of art and what you do? How do they learn more about what you do?   Brendan Vermeire: Oh, sure, I appreciate that I’m not too hard to find on the internet. Instagram is kind of my main platform. And that’s at the holistic Savage. And I just put tons of good free, functional medicine, mental health stuff kind of content out there. The business same as metabolic solutions, we’ve got the institute and self healer groups and stuff. So business, same metabolic solutions, but the holistic savage on Instagram is where I just pump out all the free content. So that’s fun.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. Awesome. And I’ll put that in my show notes. But give us the elevator sort of commercial on what is the holistic savage? And how did it get that name?   Brendan Vermeire: Yeah, you know, I have gotten some pushback on that from some people, because some people, you know, will choose to take offence to anything, even if it has nothing to do with that. So, but originally, I thought it was kind of funny, when I first came up with that, because why I created that as my username. So savage these days is used in pop culture to be like, cool, badass, you know, kind of thing. Obviously, there’s a very egregious use of the word, you know, in America in the past, and that’s not at all what my handle is referring to. But actually, there’s an even older origin, Servoz, and French, which means wild in so really, what it meant for me is unleashing your wild side, because I think humans have become very disconnected from our more primal roots. And I really think the more that we return to symbiosis, return to nature. Return to a more primal way of living a more wild and free way of living. I think that’s where a lot of the bliss and harmonies so that was kind of the inspiration behind it. Is that returning to your authenticity, returning to that wild side and having fun with it, so   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, that’s awesome. Well, that’s great. Thank you so much for being here today. And I definitely going to take you up on part two. And I just wish you future success with everything that you do.   Brendan Vermeire: Well, thank you so much, Joel. It means a lot and I had a lot of fun today, my friend.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Matt, thank you up. Well hey, you to see up here.   To learn more about Brendan and his metabolic solution education, click here   The post Mental Health and Adrenal Fatigue Explained appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m really excited to do Part Two with Beth O’Hara. She has a Doctorate of the natural path. And she specializes in functional natural Pathak approaches, for helping people with mast cell activation, and helping them heal, and helping them get to the root cause of the problem. And ultimately, let’s just get in talking to Beth and get some new clinical pearls. Pat, thank you so much for being here today.   Beth O’Hara: Thank you, Joel, I’m just really delighted that we’ve been coming together for this because I know you and I both had these massive health challenges. And we crawled out of them put it together. There are so many people out there still struggling and they don’t have the healthcare background we knew to figure this out. And so that’s I know, your mission. And my mission is to help other people get their lives back here.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s aligned in that way. And like I told you earlier, I was listening to our recording a little bit earlier. And so many bubbles go off in my head of Oh, I should have asked her this, I should have asked her that. So we got you back here today. And we can kind of build on part one, I’ll make sure that we give the link to the listeners for part one so that they can listen to that. But ultimately, I want to share what’s new with you and hear what new clinical pearls you have. And one of the things that we talked about that just scratched the surface in our last talk was how impactful the epigenetic or the environmental trigger of mold is. So maybe we can start going down that rabbit hole, Beth of why it’s such a big, I guess, a tidal wave of mast cell activation. And all of the strategies that you do downstream from that is really like playing whack a mole, if a person is dealing with mold, and stimulating the muscle. So let’s kind of start with, okay, this is why mold is important. And this is what we’ve been learning about it and most importantly, what can be done about it.   Beth O’Hara: And you’ve hit on some things, right, you know, the nail right on the head, which is that mold has become an epidemic issue. And people aren’t recognizing this, right? Because you mostly don’t see it, it’s really rare for somebody to actually see visible mold, or they might see a little in the shower. But they’re thinking, Oh, I’ll just clean that off with some bleach or, you know, if you’re in natural cleaning products, use some hydrogen peroxide or something. But if that molds growing in there, that’s a sign of a bigger problem. And most of the time people aren’t seeing it. But here’s the thing is that 50 years ago, we didn’t have the mold issues and buildings that we have today. And that is what we need to be understanding is this is truly a new level of what is an old problem. And so if you just go back, I like to look historically, you know how things have unfolded? And if you go back to just the Bible there, there are passages in the Bible about what do you do if you have mold growing in your home? And what does it say? It says you have to burn the house down. Now, most people have to burn their houses down. Now we have all kinds of ways to remediate things, but I’m just saying that even then it was known to be a big problem. And then looking historically to all the witch trials that were going on in the 1700s where people were hallucinating, they were having seizures, they were convulsing, they were psychotic. Well, what was found was it was a mold growing on the Rhine rain called Virgo. These days or air got in these days, we test our food for mold. But three major things have happened in the past 40 or so years, that has really changed how mold is becoming so problematic. So number one, we have more chemical exposure than we’ve ever had in human history. And we’re talking most people are going to be exposed to at least 20,000 different chemicals in their lifetime. And when chemicals have released the environment then they combine and form new molecules. So it’s not like they just stay in these isolated forms. And just to really illustrate this, I was reading this article on National Geographic and about an indigenous hunter in the Great Lakes area. And then the whole article was an expose on the number of toxins that are dumped into those Great Lakes. And this Hunter as he hunts for his family and his community. So as part of their survival, and he’s been hunting for decades, so he brought a moose down. And the reporters were there with him, you know, going through his life with him. And the first thing that they eat is liver, because it’s a superfood, right, that’s one of the most nutritious parts of the animal, so it cuts the most open, he pulls the liver out. And liver food, if people you know, have ever cooked liver, it should be really firm. You know, it’s kind of like a muscle in texture. But when he pulled this moose liver out, it was like sludge, I mean, it just was like goo through his fingers, which means that animals decaying, it’s, it’s breaking down from the inside. And he said He’s seeing that rabbits, he’s seeing that and beavers that’s happening to us too. And that really affects our ability to handle any other kind of toxic load. So we think about all these chemical sensitivities developing and liver issues, and kidney issues, and these different types of things, it’s going to affect the adrenals gonna affect all these systems. So that was factor one. factor two, was that in the 1970s, we had a big change in building codes because of the energy crisis. So start building buildings more tightly, which is important, right, because we were just losing all this energy out through the walls out through the roofs, and energy was getting really expensive. And it’s not a renewable resource that petroleum and all this. And so that solves one problem. But it created a new problem, and that now we’re trapping humidity and moisture inside our walls. And houses are more human, they don’t have as much air exchange as they used to. And I just ran into this because I bought a house that was built in 2000. And when I tested the house for mold before I moved in, it was January here in Cincinnati was dry as a bone. And then come March and April, we had intense rains as a factor of this right in certain places. We’re getting more rainfall, more humidity, more flooding, more hurricanes, more moisture, and humidity. I couldn’t keep it below 50%. Well, if you have 50% humidity for more than 2448 hours, you get mold growth. That’s just what happens. And so we ended up with a big mold problem in the house from the humidity garage going up. And this is happening in churches and schools places where they close up for the summer, and humidity goes up dorms are notorious. Even work buildings, retail stores, all these places. There was a study job by the is one of the governmental environmental organizations that showed that over 50% of buildings in the United States are water damaged, which means they’re going to have toxic mold, toxic bacteria, so it’s a big deal. Number three is the Wi-Fi that we started bringing to our homes around 2004 to 2009 is when that really exploded. Now, almost all homes have Wi-Fi routers, we have Wi-Fi doorbells, we have Wi-Fi security cameras, we have Wi-Fi thermostats and refrigerators and speakers, and all these different things. You know, we have Alexa or echo and we have Wi-Fi everywhere Wi-Fi baby monitors. And Dr. Klinghardt talked about one of his Swiss colleagues running an experiment where an AMOLED plate and I really want people to get the impact of this animal plate in a Faraday cage, meaning it was shielded from all the ambient EMF from the laptops and the computer speakers and the routers in there in the lab. And he just measured how much mycotoxins the toxins from molds were produced to get a reading of the normal amounts outside of that. Then he took it out of the Faraday cage and expose it to just the normal amounts we have in and then you know, a workplace a home, or whatever, and measured and it produced over 600 times more toxins in the being exposed to EMI offs. So if we think about how this has come about, we have less ability to detox. We have more mold growing in our home since the 70s. But we were still kind of okay. And it’s really been these past 20 years that these health issues have kicked up dramatically. And this is one of the big, big reasons it’s a hidden issue. It’s really truly at an epidemic level. So this is what’s going on and mold toxins are. They’re toxic to every system in the body, to the liver, to the kidneys, to the eyes, the immune system, the rentals are a whole hormone system. They’re carcinogenic, and they’re toxic to babies. They’re toxic to pets, children, pets get hit hardest. They pass through the placenta in the breast milk, and they pass to the fetus. And these toxins, mold is producing more toxins and more toxic toxins than ever before. And we’re not looking for it. So it’s that whack a mole situation if it’s at the bottom of this tower of issues. You can do CBOE protocols or adrenal protocols or line protocols for years. You’re not going to get rid of it, because you just have this wrecking ball that just keeps coming through and knocking everything back down again.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, scary stuff. I remember when I interviewed Bob and Bob Miller was going through all of the other environmental perfect storms that we have exposed to our populations. And at some point, we’re going to look back and say, whoops, you know, in terms of like, aluminum and deodorant and smearing that on our bodies plastics, in bottles and hormone disruptors and polyesters. And the list goes on and on. And I remember thinking this is daunting, and we talked in our last interview about a lot of histamine or mast cell activated, people being type A. And when we hear this, when I hear this, I get anxious and overwhelmed. So let’s talk about solutions. Because it sounds like it’s past the point of no return. And there’s no getting better from this at all because we’re doomed. And it’s what’s already been set in motion. So as far as First and foremost, is, how does all of this have to do with mast cells? I mean, what you were talking about, yeah, what is mold have to do with mast cells in the first place?   Beth O’Hara: Yeah, that’s a great problem. And I and I, and I do want because I think it is daunting, right? It’s, it’s a lot to think about. But for those of us who’ve been so sick, and you know, I know I shared last time I’ve been bedridden, I was fumbling with a cane, by the time I was 28, I was just so horribly ill. But all my lab markers still look normal. So it hadn’t hit that organ level yet. But you know, we don’t want it to hit that organ level, we want to get it cleaned up, and we can get it cleaned up. And that’s the thing is that we’ve got to figure out what is underlying all of these different issues in these different systems, and fix that and address it. So what happens with mold is one thing that that’s helpful to think about to really grasp why this is such a big issue. And why and people may find this really controversial, but mold is a bigger issue than Cebo. It’s a bigger issue than mine. It’s a bigger issue than a lot of really popular stuff people are chasing because again underlies it. And if Epstein Barr right, that’s really popular right now a lot of people have activated it Epstein Barr why shingles? All these different things are, you know, the viruses that we’re dealing with? Now? Why are we struggling from these? Well, they think about bacteria and viruses, with their, their way of operating is to come into a host. So we’re going to talk about us, you know, humans are common to humans, and to replicate. So they want to keep the host alive. So it’s going to weaken you, the bacteria and viruses don’t want to kill you off. bowls are in the world to decompose. So, if you know Moltar in the fungi kingdom when you go walk in the woods and you see a tree that fell and you see mushrooms growing on the Dominos mushrooms is a decompose that tree, and that’s critical. If we didn’t have molds, we would have dead stuff piled up everywhere. That wouldn’t work. So we need that and they have a very important role. The problem is that all the chemicals, the Wi-Fi, all that mold recognizes as a threat and it’s defending itself and it’s fighting back. And when it starts doing that, it puts out what are called spores, which are how it replicates and it puts out these toxins called mycotoxins so that now these two components here, so the toxins we can absorb their nose or mouth, we can swallow them. You know if we could leave a glass of water sitting out in a moldy environment even to get spores and toxins in that water and then you drink it or food or whatever, you know if it’s out for a while things are going to land on it. So, we can absorb mycotoxins into your skin as well. So then we get these toxins in our bodies. And for a lot of people, not all but a lot, we get the spores in the body too. So we become colonized. So kind of like having a bacterial or viral infection, we can have a fungal infection. And these mold toxins are very disruptive to the immune system. mast cells being when those frontline defending cells are so critical, they’re sensing the defending they’re protecting us. They have sensors on them called the toll-like receptor. And they’re always looking for fungal species, whether it’s Candida, different kinds of molds, whatever, they’re looking for those and they’re going to launch an attack against it to try to keep it out. And because we don’t want that growing in our body, no candy to a certain level is normal in our bodies, but candy is way out of control as well, and a lot of people these days, so the mouse will start responding. Plus we’ve got this other stuff, right mast cells respond to EMF. So that clear, clear data, lots of data on that now, mast cells respond to chemicals in the environment. So it’s like they’re getting this constant onslaught. And then another important thing that mast cells know sorry, mold does to our immune system, is it takes this what’s called the one branch. So t helper cell, that’s our killing of viruses and pathogens, we want that to be a little more dominant in our bodies. Well, it drops that down. And the mast cell side is the two sides and they work like a seesaw. So if that the one pathogen killing virus, bacteria-killing cyclins, down, mast cell site comes up. And then we get lots of these symptoms wherever people are susceptible. So it might be the skin symptoms, itching, rashes, psoriasis, eczema, some people flashing, some people, it’s gonna be respiratory breathing issues, it might be in the gut mold, toxins just wreck the gut. And so this is where we get these chronic cases of Cebo, we can get a lot of IBS, these kinds of issues constipation or diarrhea affects the nervous system, and disrupt. So we get anxiety, we get light sound sensitivities, we people can have depression, you can have tons of different types of symptoms, heart palpitations, you can get the heart involved here. Lots of things can go on when you get elevated liver enzymes. But if we let this go on for decades and decades, mobile will gradually decompose us and there’s plenty of research linking mold to things like Parkinson’s and Alzheimer’s, different forms of autoimmunity, all kinds of severe disorders.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, okay. So as far as what do we do about it? So one of the things that you talked about last time were testing first and being able to identify that it’s there and you talked about the Great Plains mycotoxin test may be better for identifying certain mycotoxins or species, you talked about doing a provoked test for that, with sweating, and then we talked about potentially doing real-time labs, which was better for other mycotoxins and maybe a different kind of provocation. So maybe just a quick little recap on that both so people can understand why we need to do those things.   Beth O’Hara: Yeah, that’s a great question, Joel. So we want to know which mycotoxins we’re dealing with. And if people have any kind of chronic health mystery, I really encourage them to check for this. If there’s a typical anything like I’ve had people who came in with atypical Ms. And I’ve seen people with atypical Parkinson’s, I’ve seen people with typical epilepsy, all these kinds of things are just not matching early cancers or cancers, that just seemed strange, you know, this shouldn’t be happening. It’s really important to roll this out or to reel it in. And we want to test through the urine. And so that’s what I found the most helpful there, you can do some blood antibody testing. I really like urine testing because we can get a sense of what we’re trying to get out of our bodies. And to best labs right now, our real-time and Great Plains. So real-time has a mycotoxin panel. And it’s really good for Xrl unknown gliotoxin, aflatoxin, and trachoma scenes, their methods not quite as sensitive for the ochratoxin but those are the five they check for. And these mold toxins get trapped in our tissues because they’re fat-soluble. So they Shouldn’t be a ton of them in the bloodstream. And so and then from the blood, we go to the urine, right. So if we want to capture something, it helps to do a little gentle drawing that out of the tissue. So we can do just a little Bluetooth ion. And just, you know, some sweating and people tolerate it sauna, not a lot of my clients tolerate sauna. The key is to do it in a way that is comfortable and doesn’t provoke a flare because it’s not worth getting worse over. And to be real careful with that Bluetooth ion because I’ve seen people put themselves on high amounts, and get really, really sick. So just to go slow and gentle there. And then Great Plains, their test is going to be more sensitive for okra toxin. And they check for some other things like chatter, global sense a trend and micro phenolic acid and gloat fluidify on can actually inhibit or interfere with their testing methods. So you don’t want to do glue the file for that you just do some sweating if possible, or people can do lymphatic drainage massage. I know a lot of my clients have trouble even getting hot because that can trigger mass activation and sweat. So then they can do some gentle lymphatic drainage. So we want to the reason we want to know what we have is that I was on a research team. It was so exciting to do this with Dr. Neil Nathan and Dr. Joe Mathur and Emily gobbler over a tree of life with Bob Miller and, and myself and we went through every study we could get our hands on in the research literature, this was such an undertaking Gelatt took over six months. I mean, it was just like each of us working on different sections, and pulling this together. But we were able to identify what the research literature shows us the most effective binders for the specific mycotoxin. So we can really customize this. And the phase two detox pathway. So this is game-changing. In terms of how we handle mold detox has a lot of people were just using charcoal and cola styrene and glorify them. But charcoal and cluster mean won’t bind all the different mold toxins. They’re not they don’t have the affinity for all of it. So this is where we want to really match what we’re dealing with. And then the glutathione is only effective for aflatoxin b1 and okra toxin. Most mold toxins and use glucuronidation. And okra toxin does as well. So that’s why it’s so critical to make sure we get these all out. And we want to keep going until the mold toxins are 100% gone off the testing and then about three months more and that comes from Dr. Neil Nathan who’s my mentor in this area. And I just have to give him a lot of credit for this approach because he really developed it and then I’ve been honing it for really super sensitive in the mass all kinds of people that I see here. But just to give one case, Joe, because I know this is a heavy subject. I had a young woman who came in and she was having 20 seizures a day. And she was in a wheelchair, she couldn’t walk. She wanted to go to college. And she couldn’t even there was no way she couldn’t send a text to Joan like she couldn’t put sentences together. And she had Bartonella she had Lyme, and she has mold toxicity. And so people had been trying to treat the Bartonella and the Lyme. And she was getting sicker and sicker and sicker. And so what we did was we went in, we backed way off we went very gently. And then we had looked at the mold toxins. So we found out which one she had. We worked with her nervous system, we call them the mast cells. We started then addressing the mold toxins, that order is really important when people are sensitive and really sick. And then within about six months, she was out of the wheelchair, with no seizures. She was writing complete sentences. And she was applying to college. And she was a little early to get started. But she was applying to college. So if you think of somebody who’s that sick, then you’ve got you know, I see a lot of people who you know, their moms or dads. They’re working jobs, but they’re just dragging are so tired. And it sometimes can take a year to three years. But we get these dramatic turnarounds. It’s so exciting to see people get their lives back. And that’s what happened to me. When I couldn’t I couldn’t walk and I couldn’t function. I couldn’t I couldn’t read a book. And now I run this busy practice called masl 360. I just went hiking for an hour a couple of days ago and I’ve really got my life back.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, listen, the proof is in the pudding ultimately, right and I always tell That, like you can micromanage values in labs. But the big goal is improved function, obviously. And being able to do that I think it’s always possible no matter how daunting the environment and getting past the point of no return may seem, there’s knowledge is power and understanding, not, you know, specifically, what mycotoxin, you have I assuming guilty until proven otherwise, not just with typical things with anything that is a chronic multi-system, body impact. And so with people that listen to this podcast or people that I help are identifying themselves as burnt out and exhausted adrenal Lee based, and this is such an important topic for them to hear because it’s not a reductionistic approach of just taking some fossil title searing. After all, your cortisol is high or taking some licorice root or some additional cortisol support when your cortisol is low. That is the whack-a-mole approach. And you’re never going to impact it if you have major mole challenges. So great, great share. And just to get you on with the real-time labs that do have the approach where if you took small amounts of gluten phi on with some sweating, what are we talking about Beth, in terms of the small amounts dosing wise?   Beth O’Hara: So great question I know I work with I specialize in very sensitive people. And that’s where I’m going to come from if somebody is, you know, they can pop back three capsules of anything on the first go, this may not apply to them. But for my sensitive people, what really works well is I have them open the capsule, and start with sprinkles. And we’re talking about using a format that can be well absorbed. So we’re really talking about s acetal glutathione. Or lipids, some people tolerate it, I find a life of syllables usually a lot stronger because it’s in that base that will make it cross the blood-brain barrier. So I usually people start with a capsule form of vas acetal Gluta file, then we do some sprinkles and those capsules, usually 100 125 milligrams. And then they go up to maybe a 16th of a capsule and eighth, a fourth a half, and so on. That’s how slowly people go, some people go even slower. That may sound like a snail’s pace. But if you’re a sensitive person that says more successful method, but then building up and it’s really cased by case, I’ve had people who couldn’t do even 25 milligrams of glue with ion. Other people can do 100 200 milligrams twice a day, people who are really much, much less sensitive, those people that can just pop back anything and it’s not throwing them for a loop, they might be able to get up to 500 milligrams twice a day, rarely have somebody in my practice that can do that. But that would be the upper limit for people who have a stronger system.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. And this is provoked. So is this a couple of days before the actual samples being taken? Is this the day of a couple? Like what’s the what’s your suggestion on that?   Beth O’Hara: Usually we do about five or six days before, do glute fi on, and then two or three times sweating if possible, or lymphatic drainage massage the day before you can do all three if you like. And then I like to have people collect first-morning urine, say just have the most apples to apples and have the most concentrated urine there. And but here’s the thing is that overdoing it doing more than your body can handle or doing what is flaring you up, and then pushing through that and flaring more is not going to get you better results is going to get you sick. And so because what that’s telling your body is that you’ve got way too many toxins flooding your system, you can’t keep up with them. So that’s one thing I want to really hammer home is this whole kind of this culture now of pushing through these hooks reactions. And if you’re a sensitive person or you have mass activation issues, I’ve seen people do that and then be in bed for three months. So that’s not a good strategy for our sensitive population. Again, if you’re a college athlete, you can throw back 500 milligrams of glue found twice a day pushing through an adverse reaction may be okay, but if you’re sensitive, we have to take a different angle here than what some of our standard just standard philosophies out there on the internet are.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and it points to the concept of the Goldilocks zone for everything, but it also keeps it in context. But the reason why We’re having you do a gentle provocation is that we want to validate, and actually, see and objectify the mycotoxins that you have in your body. And it’s not worth getting sick for, to be able to do that. So I think that’s really what we’re talking about. So, okay, let’s say and then just to reiterate what you talked about before, it’s so important to know why or which particular mycotoxins you have, because it’s going to change around the approach so that it’s more customized, not only in terms of what’s the best at what in the marketing message to market match, what’s the best binder that is known in the research to help get whatever the mycotoxin you have out, but the other part of it is the phase two processes like glucuronidation, or what specific phase two pathway is, is the mycotoxin being used to get out and then that’s where the genetic susceptibility comes into play as well, because some people may have some demands to help not just get that mycotoxin out but support that phase two pathway consistently over time. After all, you’ve mentioned all the chemicals and toxins and molds in the environment in the first place. But before we get into that, what I want to talk to you about is a lot of the clients that I work with and you work with to at the same time are like okay, well, what do I eat, because I have no idea I have Mast Cell activation, which means I have extra histamine in the GI tract. I can’t eat histamine-based foods, I have a leaky gut, it also has fermentation. So I got to be aware of fermentable foods and Cebo. But then again, I think I may have oxalates. And I don’t know what to eat with oxalates. And I know I don’t have anything I have auto immunities. So can you take us through that? That is like, Okay, how do we get them eating food that’s nutritious and substantial, and it’s going to give them energy so that that’s not another, you know, anchor to have to, to cut away and deal with as well.   Beth O’Hara: Yeah, that’s so so important. Joel and I, I had a quick thought I can’t leave alone before I go to this, which is that of just on the tests, a lot of very sensitive, very sick people will not have really high levels of mycotoxins on those first tests, frequently, it’s going to come back with very small amounts. But if anything is showing up, because there was a study, Great Plains dead that showed that not all people have mycotoxins in their urine. So if anything showing up that’s serious, even if it’s tiny amounts because it’s not showing the whole body burden, it’s just showing what’s in the bloodstream. And most sensitive, people can’t dump those into the bloodstream early on. So always take it seriously. If anything shows up. Then Then, transitioning here into the foods, this is so important. And I see a lot of people who are down to, you know, down to 15 foods or 10 foods or six foods. And there are a few elements here. One is that if we get that low in foods, and I did myself, I made this mistake of every time I had reactions after eating, I decided it was that food. And I took it out because that’s how I used to do food allergy assessment, right, you would kind of go down to this hypoallergenic diet. And then he put one thing in if he reacted, then you determine that was a problem. So that was the method I use. Well, that used to work before we had the complexities that we have now with people’s health and mold issues and chemical toxins in the mast cell activation, it doesn’t really work anymore. And this is where we’re getting in trouble. And when we get down to that like 10 foods, five foods, we don’t have enough nutrients to make the bodywork correctly. And the mast cells have nutrient needs to stabilize themselves, particularly sulfur is really critical. And so a restaurant and really current courage people to look at replacing foods, not removing foods. Those are the people that get in trouble and if you’re down to that few foods, gotta be working with somebody to get that expanded. And one of the things that are going on with these reactions, so we can have specific biochemical pathway issues right we can have oxalate issues, we can have histamine issues, we can have fodmap that’s not biochemical but vibe issues where they’re causing gas and bloating. We can have lectin intolerance, which can tip off autoimmunity, all of that for sure. Another element is if we’ve got a lot of mold toxicity dumping into the gut mass Cells fully line, the GI tract from the mouth all the way to the end. And so sometimes it depends, it’s not the food somebody is eating. It is the levels of mold, toxins dumping and the stress that they had, and the pollution outside and all that coming together causing Mast Cell activation. And I had this with a young girl who was down to about 10 foods, she was having anaphylaxis every time she ate and throat closing, even like eating something like fresh carrots was causing that this should be you know, the ones with the top should be lower histamine. So that was really mast cell. So you’ve got to calm the nervous system, because that we have this whole what’s called the enteric nervous system, a huge amount of nerves in the nerve, and it’s all connected by the vagal nerve. And so we got to calm the nervous system calm the mast cells, and a lot of food sensitivities will come down. Now that said, we issue corn issues, dairy issues may not calm down, I’m talking about just being able to eat, you know, dinosaur kale, these kinds of things.   Then, I do have people I do ask people when they come in unless if they’re on super low foods I don’t, we’re just immediately looking at expanding. But if people are eating a lot of stuff, they don’t know what’s bothering them, then I’ll ask somebody lower histamine, lower lectin for about six to eight weeks, see if we get any improvement. Not everybody’s histamine intolerant. So not everybody has to do what we want to see. And same with fodmap. Right? If we are going to try a low fodmap diet for Cebo we want to reduce those fermentable foods, see if it makes a difference but doesn’t make a difference. We don’t want to leave them out. Because we need that nutrition. But I have had to eat low histamine, low oxalate, low glutamate, low lectin, and low fodmap for a long time because I had severe mold toxicity and had the third-highest levels of mold toxins I’ve ever seen. And so I have a lot of exposure. And I found plenty to eat, but you have to get creative, right so I do things like here. Here’s one of my favorite foods right now. My favorite meal is a chicken sesame meatball. And so taking fresh, well it’s chicken those frozen after slaughter. So as low histamine gets flashed on, it gets the ground. It gets mixed with some toasted sesame oil, some ginger, some green onion tops, some garlic-infused olive oil. So that’s all low fodmap and a little bit of cooked sorghum and it gets rolled to meatball and then I have it on rutabaga noodles. And then we can put some cilantro on there. So and then chives things that are really nutrient-dense. And that’s a lovely meal. But that’s not a meal most people would, you know go order at a restaurant. So that’s where we can get creative or another one I do is make low histamine, low oxalate pesto, like a chicken pesto. And then I’ll have it on steamed carrots and, and I can’t do a lot of pomegranates because they’re high oxalate, but I’ll do like a little sprinkle of pomegranate on there. And that feels really gourmet. And there are lots and lots of options. This is why we have a website with tons of recipes for people that are in these different categories that love solicit recipes because we’ve got to eat and eating is such a psychological process as well for just satisfaction and happiness. And if we feel like we don’t have anything to eat, and I’ve been there where I was just eating steamed chicken, steamed zucchini, standard squash, and steamed carrots every day, and then maybe a little basil on there, and olive oil and that’s about all I had. And if I looked at another zucchini, I still can’t eat zucchini. Look at another zucchini Noah’s gonna throw it across the room. And, and I’m a foodie like I love gourmet food. So we have to get creative, but there’s a lot to eat. And I can tell you, Joel, I’m not underweight, I’m actually having to watch not to gain too much weight here.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think the great news is that as daunting as we painted the picture of the environment, really creating perfect storms in our, in our body. I do feel like we’re in a paradox of the best of the best and the worst of the worst. And I think there’s always there’s, it’s a lot easier in 2021. Then it was even in 2015 to have gluten-free options to have low oxalate auction options, all of the above. But one of the very first things that I think Really important that may have gone past the listener is when you are talking about slowing down the sympathetic or at least ramping up the parasympathetic, and the limbic center, and the prefrontal cortex and the Vegas nerve. And I’ll make sure I put the link for your quiz, or at least the link for determining how haywire your mast cells are going because I love your course, Beth. And I will say out loud, that part of the courses that I do as well as a Vegas component and stimulating of that parasympathetic nervous system. So really, what you’re saying is, if you took a quiz, and we find out that you have moderate, severe, or even mild, and I don’t even know if your minimum one is mild, I mean, it’s, you know, up-regulated haywire. mast cells, that means at some level, your sympathetic machinery is upregulated. and your parasympathetic digestive machinery is downregulated. And no matter what diet you do, if you’re not getting that in balance, you’re going to have major challenges. So I love that idea. And there are certain exercises you can do. bagel, bagel tone exercises, coffee enemas, gargling, swallowing, there’s a lot of other, you know, autonomic nervous system, things that people can learn about. But certainly, we’ll put the link in there. I think that’s a really key point that you put there. So thank you for sharing that. That’s, that’s awesome information. So there is so much more information, I’d love to ask you. I know, we’re just we’re, we’re getting close to the end of the time here. So anything specific that you haven’t talked about, or you think is maybe a cleat key clinical pearl? That, along with everything else that we’ve talked about? Do listeners need to know?   Beth O’Hara: Yes, well, I want to expand on I’m so glad that you brought the nervous system up to more. And that’s where I love always talking to you because we’re on the same page with this stuff. And this is a big missing piece of a lot of functional practices are going well, let’s look at the detox pathways, let’s work on the gut, let’s work on the hormones. And then there may be a little nod to doing some breathing or some meditation. And when people are really chronically ill working on the nervous system is at least 50% of the healing process. So I just want to say, again, that if we want to heal from a lot of chronic illness, this nervous system piece is just as important as cleaning up the environment, getting clean water, taking the right supplements, doing exercise, all this stuff. So I have a graphic where put all that on one half and the nervous system on the other. So here’s why. Because we don’t live in a culture that this makes sense, because of how busy we are all the time and how much demand we put on our lives. But the nervous system is what connects everything in the body and connects every organ, every muscle, every bone, everything is connected by the nervous system, and their mast cells at every nerve ending and their muscles in the limbic system, their muscles all along the vagal nerve branches. And they’ve hot talkback and forth constantly. So the nerves are releasing these neurotransmitters, and the mast cells are receiving those and responding. So any stress is a direct effect on those mast cells, which is then going to affect every tissue in every system. And then the mast cells have chemicals, they release mediators that respond to the nervous system. So you get this constant feedback happening. If we want to enter in with people with chronic health issues, and particularly sensitivities, we’ve got to calm that down and work on that. And its very specific modalities. It’s the vagal nerve. It’s the limbic system. There are hundreds of options out there, but very few are actually really dialed in. And that’s what I know you teach in your courses and that’s what I teach in that mast cell Nervous System reboot is, how do you take the plethora of options and build a roadmap that matches how haywire you are. So how out of balance your dysregulated nervous system is. So this is really key and it’s really key in healing from mold toxicity because mold toxins disrupt the nervous system, Bartonella Lyme, all these things food poisoning paralyzes the vagal nerve. So lots of things will affect the nervous system. Then we have to like Kyle Nathan calls it rebooting without a reboot, we got to turn it back on the way it should be working. So that is so critical and not to be overlooked. And that’s one place where I didn’t give it I I was doing yoga and so much meditation, but I didn’t give it, the tenant dialed in attention that it needs. And then the other piece is that we wanted to touch on this more, maybe we can do it another time, but that   a lot of these issues are all tied into what’s called cell danger response. And so we have underlying chronic toxins underlying chronic pathogens, like Lyme, Bartonella, Epstein, Barr, all this stuff. And we just it overwhelms the system, and your body goes into this defensive lockdown mode, it’s going to pull resources away from certain pathways, just to keep us alive. And some of those are going to be reducing the vitamin D production, changes, and methylation, we’re going to get changes in being able to make melatonin and sleep. But a lot of approaches are just throwing methylation pieces at people training them to take these high doses, methyl Foley, and that’s working against this natural process. So we want to be doing things in that order. There’s an order of operations that will allow our bodies to heal successfully. And that all to tie in and say, if you’ve been struggling with this for years, and you’re stuck, and you’re feeling like nobody’s going to figure it out, or you’re not going to get there. The reason is, there’s a missing piece, or they’re missing pieces. And I believe that for anybody who truly wants to get well, that is dealing with this kind of issues we’re talking about, we have ways of getting our health back. And we have ways of recovering and I see it day in and day out. And I gave some of the worst cases, we get a lot of people just moderate health issues that come in, and they get really well. It’s about making sure we’re attending to the big picture, attending to what is the root most pieces? What are the linchpins and we’re doing it in the correct order that unlocks the body’s own healing capacities?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a great answer. And the only thing I would add to that is obviously the balance, the customization, the prioritization, doing everything, but also appreciating the power of the body. And that’s one thing that I’m beside myself on with the public health mandates in today’s world, and today’s epidemics, and the way that governs not to get down a slippery slope, but we’re forgetting about the natural ability for the body to heal. And sometimes it’s a matter of getting out of the way. It’s the analogy is like, if we have a fever, there’s a reason why your body’s going through a fever, it’s physiologically necessary. Now, if it goes too high as a fine balance, you may want to augment it. But you know what the body’s born with the natural ability to heal if you kind of just perturb it in the right direction, and not necessarily say, Okay, I’m the master of the body, I know more than the body knows about the body, and get out of the way. So I’m going to take over and just, you know, make up for the inability of the body to do this. And some that and you’ll agree with this to the bath is sometimes our most difficult clients are not only the ones that have the perfect storm of genetics and environment going on. But they also have what I say the analogies are not only a broken golf swing, but they also have a lesson a golf coach taught them the wrong way. So now we have to unlearn the bad swing and also teach them the good swing. So anyway, listen, I appreciate your time, we definitely need to do part three. But you have a couple of new programs coming out, which I’m really excited to hear about maybe just kind of give us a quick little plug for that. And then I can post the links into the show notes and on my website as well.   Beth O’Hara: Oh, thank you so much, Joel, what I’m doing is I’m taking so long detoxification is complex. And here’s the thing is, if you’re reading blog posts and trying to piece it together, you’re not going to get it. It’s too complex is too much. So what I’m doing is distilling down, what we’re using at masl, 360, and hundreds of people that’s working so well. And what I’ve pulled from my mentors who I’m so grateful for, and then I’ve expanded into our masl 360 processes is how do you step through if you’re a sensitive person, if you’ve got muscle issues, how do you step through a mold detox program, and I’m putting it in the right order. So I’ve got a basic level for people who are just getting started figuring out what all this is, and they’re brain fog. They’re tired, they can’t take a million details. And then we’re going to have at the advanced level that’ll be for people who’ve been Looking at this for a while, they want the studies, they want all the background. So lay people who are a little more at that intermediate-advanced level, and practitioner. So we’ve got both those options. I’m so excited, I’m pouring my heart and soul into this. And really, it’s about this mission of recovering my health, Joe. And I know you understand this was such a nightmare. And I had to do it on my own because 20 years ago, nobody knew about any of this stuff. And it took years to uncover that the mold was at the root of even my Lyme-like Cebo, all this stuff that gave me so sick. And so that was such a nightmare. If I can take what I learned from that, and I can help just one more person, get their health like back, get their lives back and not have to do this alone, then it makes that nightmare worth it. And then it can be in service. And so that’s what these courses are for is to help people to get their health back their lives back.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. And that’s what the paradigm shift again of the best of the best is now we’re able to give more and allow people to get their own healing done with quicker outcomes and not as many costs and financially or things that you can’t put a financial price tag on. So thank you so much for your time, Beth. I appreciate everything that you’re doing. And I will make sure that I give the links to be able to see those different programs for people that are listening, to take that next step.   Beth O’Hara: Thank you, Joan. I’m really grateful that you’re helping me get this information out there and for everything that you do too. I love your work.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Thanks, Beth. Have an awesome rest of your day.   The post How To Crawl Out OF Massive Health Challenges With Beth Ohara FN appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And today I’m joined with a special guest, Michelle Cavanaugh. She’s a serial entrepreneur and speaker. She’s the founder of the sales Queen, an online program that helps business owners have more confidence in sales conversions, and in overcoming objection, Michelle loves our for sale, Mr. Sorry, Michelle’s love for sales come from working at Vega foods and traveling the world convincing strangers to try new food products. And in 2015, Michelle decided to start her own company in the health industry. And now she helps others get their mindset right, elevate their confidence, and unleash their inner sales skills. Michelle, thank you so much for being here today.   Michelle Kavanagh: Hey, thanks so much for having me. I’m really excited. And looking forward to this chat. We’re gonna have.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, me too. And you know, one of the reasons we’re really interested in that is because you didn’t have any bones about sharing your own health experiences. And one of your most recent health experiences has been breast x plant surgery. And I when I saw that, and you, you share that with your following. And then I said, Hey, I’d love to interview you and get your perspective on that, and why and how and when and where, because a lot of women that I work with that are exhausted and burnt out, they do say, hey, Joel, I’ve had breast implants, do you think this could be contributing to my exhaustion and fatigue? So before we get into all of that, Michelle, why don’t you just tell us a little bit of your health journey, in terms of just a little background on your view of health, your health history, just kind of give the listeners some ideas on where you’re coming from?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, so I have always been a health-conscious person, I was very active in my teenage years, the early 20s. And then I decided one time to compete in a fitness competition. And, you know, I was like, why not? You know, I’m going to get in the best shape of my life. I’m going to look back at these pictures. And I’m at and be like, yeah, I had a six-pack once, right? But that journey of, you know, going through extreme dieting, and really just putting my body into a state of stress really was kind of like the first thing that I started to really recognize on this health journey of mine of things is going wrong. So shortly after I competed in this fitness competition, I got my implants. So I had my implants in 2021, I got them in 2015. And so I started to, to get like all of these symptoms, and, you know, bloating. I was, I had parasites for a year and a half in my gut. So just like a gut issue, after a gut issue, I started to feel really, really tired. I’d have afternoon naps, every single afternoon. And I was a napper, like, I could never three hours. And it wasn’t just like a 30-minute thing, and I was still feeling exhausted. And, you know, all I just wasn’t feeling great. I was eating a lot more sugar. And reaching for that coffee, you know, later on in the day. And it honestly took me probably up until last year to kind of start to make all of these connections between, you know, maybe this could be my employment because I had seen gut, you know, infectious disease doctors from these parasites that came from Egypt. Apparently, I had seen naturopathic doctors, I had seen almost every specialist that you could think of I was just like, I am 32 years old. And I feel like I am like 75 years old and been smoking my whole life, you know, just like super unhealthy. And so yeah, it took me I would say close to five years to really realize like, hey, so if I’ve seen every specialist, I’ve tried every elimination diet, why am I still having all of these symptoms, right? And so that’s what kind of led me to look more internally and like, hey, why am I so inflamed? Well, sure. I do Botox injections, I do fillers. I do this kind of thing. But what’s inside of my body right now that has been there for a long time? Oh, that’s, maybe let’s explore that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. It’s great that you have that sort of smelling salts under the nose, like, okay, it’s something else that’s not being seen, but I would rewind because part of the reason why I got into what I did and like Craig and yourself and I was a trainer and spent many hours in the gym, and I think what happens is ultimate, the fitness contestants that stand on stage are anything but healthy sort of speak from a physiological point of view, they’re dehydrated, they’re inflamed, they are depleted. You know there. There’s a lot of things going On. So as far as how much did you consider the overtraining and the rigmarole you put through your body as part of the health challenges besides just the actual act of the implants?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, I mean, there’s so many. And that’s the confusing part about it. All right, is there are so many different factors. I mean, when your body fat is so low, and you’ve lost your period for like, a year, it’s like, Okay, well, I need to start getting my body fat higher. And then what is that versus what is just like, serious inflammation in the body due to something else. And then, you know, you switch your eating habits now, I’m not doing cardio in the morning and weights that night, and now I’m just working at once a day. So there are so many contributing factors that it could be so it, it got really confusing until years down the road.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, so so you get more sophisticated, you start to understand it’s not a reductionistic just this for that. And that, unfortunately, we get tied into an allopathic approach like hey, blood, high blood pressure, take high blood pressure pills, you know, high blood sugar, take, you know, high blood sugar pills. But sometimes that happens from the health standpoint to the holistic alternative approach and instead of taking Lipitor, let’s take Cawthorne leaf and lower your cholesterol that way. So it’s not really a solution, per se. So let me take me through then I’d seen specialists, I had parasites, but then it came on my radar in terms of Okay, breast implants. And so what was the research, the due diligence? And how did you go through that process for a lot of the women listening that may not have it on their radar yet?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, so I was seeing a chiropractor twice a week. And that recently started two years ago, because I was getting a lot of back pain. And in the back pain, I was starting to get like in my neck kind of shoulders. And if when you wear a bra, and if you have a larger chest, of course, you start to get these like little knots in your shoulders. And so started seeing a personal trainer and a chiropractor twice a week. But I still wasn’t feeling like anything was improving. And so that was the first kind of aha moment, besides all of the other things that I’d mentioned. Because that wasn’t obvious to me the connection between. So I had seen my chiropractor, and I was telling him, Hey, listen, you know, I have breast implants. And I just think they’re so heavy sometimes. And his wife had just gone through x plant. And so he became like the super, like Intuit about like, he’s like, Michelle, I’m gonna treat you like my daughter right now. And he’s like, I’m going to tell you everything that I know. And so he became my first point of information, I should say, because I was kind of like Hocus Pocus before, right? Like, come on, like this can’t possibly be there, save, you know, plastic surgeons do these every single day all over the world? How can these be actually a thing? And then he started telling me a little bit about his wife and his wife’s journey and all of this stuff. And so I was like, Okay, well, now I started, we started to be in the back of my mind. And then I started to join groups. So there’s a Facebook group, and it’s 145,000 women. It’s called breast implant illness by Nicole, you can search it on Facebook. And it’s just women that are thinking about it or have gone through it. And there are just tons and tons of resources on that page. I think it’s actually been around for over 10 years. But it’s just started to get a lot more momentum, I would say in the last five years. And so that’s been really great. And then every, so there’s a list on that page, and it tells you all the doctors that specialize in excellent surgery because again, there are some doctors, some surgeons that believe in it, and then some that don’t. And so the ones that believe in it, they’re listed on that, that page. And so I believe that there’s, I would save close to 50 doctors all over the world. So all over the states. And it’s just a matter of kind of reaching out and figuring out which one feels right to you. I’m a really big believer in intuition and just having you know that face-to-face zoom or whatever, and just seeing if that person is right for you, and then moving forward with that. So that’s kind of how I started to and then once you start into that group, and you start looking at everyone’s symptoms, you’re like, Oh, got issues. Oh, anxiety, oh, depression, back pain, which is obvious, you know, joint pain and inflammation, all this stuff, and you’re just like, this is incredible. Like, I would have the 50 symptoms. I think I probably have 25 of them easily.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, listen, thanks for sharing. I mean, that’s a that’s very helpful for the listeners Because ultimately, you want to have resources there that that is confirmed with other people that are suffering from the same challenges and We will be met with objections or counterpoints of Oh, it’s not a thing and you found out it was a thing. So as far as would you say you attributed the symptoms that you had? Just to recap again, from the training for the fitness show, and then just being tired and having to have a nap and feeling like you were 75? What a GI issues, hormone imbalances, brain fog, like, what was the whole gamut of all the things you were feeling?   Michelle Kavanagh: No, I would contribute it to the implants. Because, I mean, they’re, like, I, I was always active before, right? Maybe not that extreme. But I was always in competitive sports. And so I understood what it was like to like, eat the proper nutrition, and then train for it, eat and train, eat and train and stuff like that, too. So I would 100% contributed to the implants.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, I wasn’t saying I’m sorry. Let me rephrase the question. To recap all of the symptoms that you had after getting the implants in, what were all ones that you attributed to the change and what you were feeling?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, yeah. So as far as all of the symptoms that I started to get really like that I’ve noticed over the years, would be brain fog, 100%, joint pain, so like, even just touched me, like when I would go get a massage or something like I would feel bruised just from touching certain parts of my body. got issues as I’d mentioned, and here’s the crazy thing, even taking a deep breath. So because my which could contribute to the anxiety, right, because even when I take a deep breath, and I do a lot of meditation, I could only do a four breath-hold. And so now I’m two weeks out of my surgery, I can do six breaths like I can do a six breath-hold. And so I can only imagine once all of the information from the surgery goes down, maybe I’ll be able to take even deeper breaths. So even something like breathing properly, I’ve already noticed a huge improvement in my own health, which is incredible hair loss, I started bolting right here, on my hairline, they can’t see that, I’m going to get my hairline here on the left-hand side. But that started to I started to lose hair and hair loss is a big thing. And so I’m trying to think of what other symptoms I have. But I would say those are the main ones. And then back pain, of course.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I mean, this, you don’t need any more symptoms than that are debilitating like that. But one thing I’ll say is, so I work with clients that are exhausted and burnt out. And I have a site called the truth about adrenal fatigue because ultimately, it’s not thought of as the legitimate diagnosis. And I tell people, Michelle, I say look, just think of it as a demand and supply problem, your stress response is so up-regulated and so demanding of income or nutrients that you can’t keep up with that. And you have inequality between all the things you need to do and your body and all the ways that you can handle that. So what I do end up telling them is ultimately it’s a, it’s a mitochondrial problem, not an adrenal problem, but you’re not producing energy at the cellular level that you need to. And ultimately, your mitochondria are where oxygenation and respiration take place. So you’re actually saying at the 30,000, view foot, because of breast implants, and physiological changes to your structure, that you’re not taking in as much oxygen per given breath, and or, you know, minute, times 365 times six, right, because it’s that long. And ultimately, that’s going to cause you to produce more ate less ATP, or put less gas in your car, and not be able to go for as many drives as you could and in your body that resulted in brain fog. And that resulted in you know, just feeling tired and maybe having some insulin resistance and feeling sleepy after a meal and just having a lot of shakiness and soreness. So I think it’s really important that you’re sharing this and bringing this to women’s attention now, just to sort of switch it up a little bit you help others with their mindset and their confidence to help with their helping the world and serving their mission and, and being in alignment with what they resonate with. But let me ask you if you’re helping people with your mind, their mindset, and I know for women a big concern is you know, aesthetically, and having breast implants help with that. Man is just sort of a very personal question. How was it being able to deal with Okay, like, this was something I did to enhance You know, my self-image or what I thought would enhance my self-image make me feel happier or healthier or Just better in my own skin, only to not know that you had to remove them for health purposes? But what kind of impact would that have on the identity or the new identity or the change of identity? And how that impact your health?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, that’s a really great question. And you’re exactly right. I mean, women get breast implants, whether they like it or not because they want to look better, right? Maybe they’re insecure, and or they’ve gone through a big shift in life where they feel like they need to do something different, right? guys buy cars, girls buy implants. And I think it’s, it’s one of those things where, yeah, you, you go through surgery, and you have a positive outcome, you get a nose job, you like your nose better, anything that’s in that realm, when you know, are wanting to improve yourself, it’s a better outcome in most cases. And I bawled my eyes out the morning of my surgery to my surgeon, because I said to him, you know, this is, I’m now going through all of this trauma because surgery is trauma, to an unknown result to something that, you know, you look at pictures sometimes after, and you’re like, Whoa, like, that looks completely, you know, not right. But it’s, it’s getting past that mindset shift of this isn’t about aesthetics anymore. This isn’t about if this looks, you know, really nice or not right after. And so it was hard, it was really, really hard. And I went through the surgery. Then I had my first shower, it was about four days after. And so I took off all of the bandages, and I had these drains in me. And so I couldn’t even look at the drains, because I’ve got a woozy stomach. But I just looked at myself in the mirror and I broke down again, I completely broke down. And, you know, Craig said, You’re so beautiful. My partner. And I was just like, Oh my gosh, this was way harder than I thought this would be. I mean, any woman can just stand up here and be like, Yeah, I did that. And that was so brave. And all this stuff people will say but the actual realness of going through something like that when you know, because it’s almost like it’s not tangible. Like it is tangible. Like all of these things that I’ve mentioned about my health will improve. And I’ve already seen so many of them improve, but it’s not like that thing that you can grab on to right. It’s not like it’s more or more in your head. So, um, yeah, it’s, it’s a challenge. And I think that my biggest lesson from this whole thing is my idea of what attractiveness looks like. And my idea of what pretty is. And just because you have larger boobs does not mean that you are more powerful or more significant than someone that has no boobs. And I think this, you know, identity of just being okay with it has actually made me a stronger person. And it was, it was interesting because the surgeon before we went into the surgery said to me, Oh, it’s not that he didn’t want to do it. But he was like, they look so good, though. And he was like, Yeah, and I think just like that kind of thing in the back of my head was like, they do look good, but I am sick, and just to really stand behind that, that it’s not about that. And I don’t want to be a person that’s known for someone that has a really great chest, I want to be known for somebody who has a really great heart. And that is super kind. And so from a mindset point of view, it’s real training yourself in a different way, then, aesthetically, maybe what you’ve thought of yourself before. And it’s kind of going down to that like very spiritual deep level. So I mean, to anyone listening, if you have implants, or you know, your mom has them, and you’re trying to convince someone to maybe make a different decision about them. It’s almost like you have to look at it like you’re going on a spiritual journey, because not only are you going to be getting your health back, you’re going to be a lot lighter, a lot healthier, and a lot happier. But there’s something that shifts in your mindset as well, that just makes you radiate differently makes you glow. Totally different than and maybe it’s the inflammation going down. I don’t know. But I’ve every day gets a little bit easier. And like I said, they still don’t look quite right. And they will look better six months down the road. Because for some reason, when you put implants in your breast tissue decides to like move around. So about six months or so all of the tissue will kind of come back into its natural place and things will be fine. So yeah, it’s been a lot more challenging, truthfully than I thought it was going to be. But I’m so incredibly happy that I made this decision.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Now listen, a lot of wisdom in what you just shared, and it’s not For me to comment, because you know unless you give birth, you don’t really know what it feels like to give birthright? So, but what I do would say is when we work with our clients that have these massive trials and tribulations Michelle, it’s not fair like, it’s almost like you couldn’t write a movie script with the atrocities or just the crazy things that some of the clients I worked with going through, like, they had to post-traumatic stress as a child, they have had a fire in their home, there were so many crazy things that happened. And ultimately, their journey and their scars that physically or metaphorically they get as a result of their trials and tribulations are what becomes their defining personal, sort of their, their strengths, they’re, they’re, they’re major. So I always tell our clients like the look, look at our trials and tribulations as gratitudes. for things that we needed sort of a little knock on the head and say, Hey, like, you can’t go on this way. You need to change the action. And because you didn’t wait too long for that problem to become a crisis that was passed and no point of no return. You did something about it. And now you have a reminder about your new identity itself, and how that defines you as a stronger person. I mean, listen, I again, as I said, I preface that with I certainly did not go through that. But I think you already adopted that mindset. Knowingly or not, when when you went through this and realize it’s a journey, that you have some unanticipated feelings and emotions, but you’re still holding strong too, I think the gratitude that you don’t that you’re not articulating that makes you a stronger person. Would you agree to that? As far as the comments on there?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, most definitely. And I think it’s all depending on your surroundings for a lot of it, right? I think that if you are in a circle of you know, women who all have implants, and it just seems normal, like for me, like all of my friends had implants when I got them. And so it wasn’t like, I didn’t really think to myself, Oh, these can be harmful. It was kind of like, yeah, sure, that sounds good. Like, might as well. And so yeah, and I think it’s now I told, like we’re in Miami right now, which is like, plastic Central, right? And it’s like, I take out the dog, and I just see implants everywhere and, and hey, it’s your body, it’s your choice. But the way that I look at implants is there a ticking bomb, and maybe you haven’t had symptoms yet. But if you just think of the logic of putting a plastic bag inside your body, and your body is warm, it’s heating it. And what happens when plastic is heated up, it starts to disintegrate, it starts to melt. And so it’s just, you know, a matter of time before people start to get symptoms, unfortunately, and the cool thing is, is this group that I’m a part of, there’s like a 75-year-old woman getting their implants out. 80-year-old woman getting their implants out, they’re like, you know, I just was thought about it. I was like, I want my health back. And like that is awesome. Like, you went through a divorce when you’re 60, you got your implants, and now you’re, you know, in your 70s 80s. And you’re just like, No, they’re not for me anymore. So I think that when it comes to it, it takes time to make that decision for yourself. It took me almost a year. But I wish I would have done it sooner.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I know, that’s those are really great points. And to sort of continuing what you were talking about not to make this a science class. But you’re right when you introduce something that is not natural to your body. It’s not dormant. I mean, it’s not like nothing is going on. Your body has to deal with, effectively letting sleeping dogs lie, and there’s physiological communication, and there’s inflammation, and then it creates a slippery slope of if you already had some health challenges before that, now you’ve poured oil on the fire, and you’re having some major challenges. I’m just curious about the particular doctor that you chose to go with? Do they give you some kind of assessment, Michelle, as to had there been any leaking? Or had there been any immune reactivities or scarring or any markers on blood work? Or anything that they tell you? Hey, like, we also see that there’s some mold, or are there other assessments that you could do that they that this particular doctor did or that you researched?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah. So the doctor that I went to was in Costa Rica and the reason why I went to San Jose was that I could get in sooner. There’s a doctor in Miami that I really like as well as the name is Dr. Dev, I would highly recommend him. If you’re anywhere in the US. I would travel He’s amazing. But his weight was almost a year out. And I was like, No, I need to get these things out of me now, but some people do weight testing. So because it was in Costa Rica, they gave me a list of things to do beforehand. So one of them was a breast ultrasound. So with that, you can see if there’s any leaking, but sometimes you can’t. That’s the thing. I mean, they if it’s a massively sure, but with gel implants, gels stick together. So unless it’s a, you know, she’s really pressing hard and getting a really good photo of what’s going on inside. Some of the time, you can see, but some of the times you can’t, because I’ve known people who have had the ultrasounds before, and then they’ve taken out the implants, and there’s been a hole. So you can’t always trust those types of tests. There’s bloodwork so there was a full pre-op panel that I did beforehand. And what else did I do, EKG just kind of see make sure everything’s good with you. But yeah, those are the main tests that I did beforehand. And again, if this is something that you’re interested in, you can go to that Facebook group. And then there’s a list of different tests that you can do for mold. You can do a ton of that blood work and stuff. But I don’t know, like, I just feel like sometimes. That was a mandatory thing I had to do before surgery, that wasn’t kind of my determining factor to get surgery. But if you’re at the stage where you’re like, still kind of skeptical and still are like, I’m just not sure if it is that, I would say just start really tracking your own progress. And really just, maybe it’s a journal, you keep every single day and you’re just like, how’s my mood? How is my anxiety? How am I feeling today? What did I eat? How did it make me feel, and just really taking like an audit on your day, because you can tell you the best? And I and I mean, I do believe in tests, but there are some things that you can just get carried away with. And then you’re seeing specialists every single day doing all of these different tests to just find out that maybe nothing’s wrong because that’s the things that some of these tests will tell you. It’s like, no, everything’s fine. And then everyone looks at you like you’ve got five eyeballs, right? So I think just doing the tests that you think are appropriate for you, maybe a blood panel would be helpful for you. And really just starting to meditate starting to really look internal, and just to really listen to your body. And I know, that can be kind of a weird thing for some people, maybe if they’ve never done that before, but really just telling, just keeping track of how you feel and then comparing it against, you know, month one to month four, or things getting worse, you know, and kind of base having a baseline off of that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great answer. I think that there’s a Goldilocks zone with anything like acquiring information not having enough acquiring too much information. And as someone we know, says the speed of implementation is key, right. So if you’re doing too many, didactic, or just research on things, you don’t actually get the process or the procedure done. That’s defeating the purpose. And I think going back to what you said with the frequency or the woo-woo, a little bit about knowing that this doctor was for you, you had that good sense, you also probably correct me if I’m wrong, I had the good sense that intuitively, you knew like, the breast implants need to come out like I could research to the cows come home. But it’s an I could validate and make sure that this number would have been lower if it was higher, higher if it was, but you know, it needs to come out. So I think that’s a great point. However, I work with a lot of clients who were not to say you weren’t suffering from a challenge or health challenge. But we sometimes see the perfect storm, the really been to 15 different doctors spent $50,000 have so many different testing. And ultimately, other physiological things are going on in your body that created a breast implant sickness, that would be 10 times worse with all those other things that were going on to so let me ask you this, as far as I’m curious to know, do they have any recommendations, Michelle, the doctor or the research or the Facebook page, which we do put this on my website. So I’ll put the links to the Facebook page, as well as how to get in contact with you if people have questions if that’s okay. So but as far as Do they have any recommendations as to potential recovery strategies like nutrient supplements getting quicker, better from when you don’t when you actually have the procedure? I’m just curious to know about that.   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, so they recommend, I don’t know if you’ve heard of the Medical Medium. Yeah, he doesn’t want to the celery juice, stuff like that. So they recommend a protocol. Every doctor is a bit different, but just going based on this group, that’s kind of where I’m testing out some different stuff. So I’ve now done a paleo diet, that’s kind of the protocol that I’m following right now, just really sticking to the basics, making sure that I’m, you know, don’t have any sugar besides like fruit sugar, and just trying to eat a high protein diet with some sweet potatoes here in there. So just really keeping it simple on my gut, because I still feel a lot of inflammation in my stomach especially could be the painkillers could be the antibiotics that you’re put on for a week after. And it’s just kind of coming out of my system now. So you know, really making sure my fiber intake is higher, that kind of thing. So, as far as diet and protocol go, I think just really sticking to a clean diet, making sure that you’re super hydrated as much as you can, and just not trying to eat bad food, eat fast food, that kind of stuff. Because, you know, you’re now trying to detox your body. Heavy metals are a thing with implants. And so I’m still kind of exploring what that’s going to look like. But for the first month, I’m really just using food as my medicine. until maybe next month, I’ll look at some type of heavy metal detoxes, stuff like that, but really just trying to get all of those antibiotics and everything out of my system at the moment.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and that’s great. I mean, no matter who does the procedure, and what they recommend, there’s always going to be core competencies that everyone should implement. And that’s obviously good mindset, good surrounding good nutrition, keeping it simple, always really great things. The other thing I would add, as well as sort of the analogy of when people get their mercury amalgams polled, I use the analogy of like, like a magnet, where you have the two opposite ends, they repel each other. So when you have mercury in your teeth, and you get them taken out, it kind of takes that opposing magnet out of the body. So wherever the outgassing of mercury got deposited, and other tissue over the years that you’ve done it kinda like saying, Oh, we can come out and play a little bit, there’s no nothing kind of keeping us, you know, in suspension and not coming out. And I think it’s true with bresaola’s illness. And explant surgery is is that it out gas and heats up, it creates vapors, it creates residues that get deposited, and now that that’s out, your body’s naturally going to be in a position to dump and remove, like you’ve alluded to. However, the challenges are if we don’t have if we’ve been really sick for really long, and we don’t have the physiological reserves to deal with all of the dumpings that would happen. And that’s where, again, being able to customize some of your pathways and making sure that you have good B vitamin status, or you’re getting enough oxygen at the cellular level so that you’re producing ATP, or you’re calming down your inflammatory pathways a little bit better. Or you’re supporting some of those detox pathways. If you have questions, we can do that after, after the show. But yeah, I mean, that’s sometimes what happened. I don’t know if they have that on the website that will on the Facebook page. But have you heard of any challenges, or maybe some not once a side effects, but some kind of recoil? For some women that once they donate or get their breast explant surgery done, they have some challenges now with the sort of the sand the ocean floor that was kicked up and having all the sort of the murky waters start to settle down? Do you hear of anything like that at all?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yes. And that’s a really good point that you’re bringing up? Because, you know, I can say yep, yep, throw it and everything’s just, you know, rainbows and sunshine right now. And everything’s going well for me. But I know there’s been some women that have broken out and complete rashes, you know, rashes or, or things that are coming up on their face. And maybe they’re getting super dark circles under their eyes and they’re like, hey, but wait a minute, you know, now that these are out I should be you know, healing and getting better. But I think one of the most important things that everyone needs to consider is that healing looks different for everyone. And depending on how long you’ve had them for depending on you know, just your body, you the health of your body before you go into the surgery, this can take up to two years, to fully detox to be fully on that lighter way to a healthier life. So it’s important to know that Yeah, me someone might feel better a week out and some poster person might feel better a year out and then two years so to know that your body is doing the So that can to get all of this out and to be healthy, the body is an amazing, amazing thing. And so that’s why it’s so important to really facilitate not only what you eat, you know, making sure you’re sticking to Whole Foods and healthy foods, but your mindset to making sure that you are doing your meditations and practicing gratitude. Because it all plays such a huge role in making sure you’re going for those walks, midday, if you’ve been sitting, you know, at your desk, and just getting that movement in you, when you recover. You’re not supposed to exercise for four weeks, but I’ve been going for a little walk here and there just because I have to do I have to prove my mindset of things and just not making sure your heart rates staying down as much as possible. But yeah, healing looks very different for everyone, and to say, you know, this is what happens sometimes it’s it looks completely different. But rashes are a big one that I’ve seen with a lot of women.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, you get awesome information. Again, I interviewed Frank Benedito. I’m sure you’ve known that name from Craig. And we talked about four pillars that no matter what your niche is, or what health strategies you do, if you did four pillars, and the first one is movement, right. So that’s really key. I mean, if you’re sedentary all day, especially with COVID, and being locked up, I mean, just moving and you’re not going to go lift weights, but you’re moving and getting your heart rate elevated, that’s key, obviously, the nutrition that you do is super key, doing healthy habits that help you go to sleep earlier and wake up later and have a better sleep. And then mindset stuff. Those are four major pillars, that no matter what happens, you need to do. But I would also say for some of the women that are really struggling, that explant surgery on top of everything made everything sorts of stirred up the pot and kick the ocean floor. That’s where typically someone like myself, or who’s trained in looking at the perfect storm, we recommend doing a neutral genomic test, which basically looks and says, okay, Michelle, you have problems with like histamine clearance, and that could create a lot of your rashes, because as you get those x plants out, you’re dumping some of those extra toxins and your body’s not dealing with it effectively, the livers overloaded, it’s creating more inflammation, and your body just doesn’t have the manpower to deal with that. So here’s what we could be doing, or, you know, your microbiome is depleted, and there are not enough good short-chain fatty acids, so we can, so just it’s a little more elaborate, and I’m happy to hear that it’s not something you’re dealing with because you had what we call more metabolic flexibility, you had the ability to walk on that tightrope, and be pushed one way or the other, but not fall off. And that’s a testament to those four pillars, your health history already. And I would agree 100% on the mindset, like in terms of like, the gratitude and now you’re, you’re new, I guess, you know, a metaphoric scar is a thing of beauty now not a thing to be ashamed of. So, awesome information. So as far as what you do, how do you feel this may change how you consult with people in their health journeys?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, so as far as how I believe, you know, I guess, I guess that’s like, my messaging, I guess, for younger women, especially because, you know, I work a lot with confidence and mindset and sales and helping women present themselves online. And I think it’s just made me aware of the impact that some things that we talked about just what we think is common knowledge, or just normal, or ideas of what looks good. Might have shifted a little bit, I remember, I made this video on my Instagram, and it was basically about like, revealing all of the different procedures that I’ve had done. And, you know, I kind of had this message of just like, be you do what makes you feel good, and that kind of thing. And I think my message is still that it’s still, you know, do what makes you feel good. And but I think if it compromises your health, that’s where my stand is different. Whereas before I did, I wasn’t really aware of that health impact. So definitely, you know, I think if I, it was funny, I had a conversation with someone recently, and she told me she was thinking about getting implants. I’ve had many women reach out to me and say, you know, I’m considering this and I just had two kids and I’ve been with my husband for the last 15 years and I’m thinking we’re getting implants and the first thing I think about why now And I kind of have a different open conversation with them, I guess. And so I think, for me and my business and just kind of where I stand, I wanted to share this journey on my platform, just to be a resource, and just to be that person who is not going to tell anyone what to do, but just to give them the information so that they’re able to decide for themselves and what’s best for themselves. Because I never like to be told what to do. I mean, most people don’t like to be told what to do, right. But it’s important to have that information there. And just, I, you know, I don’t work in the health space. But what I do is more in the business space. But I think nowadays, it’s so important to be transparent with, you know, your story, your why, and showing more of your personal brand, even if it’s not directly correlated with the thing that you sell. And so that’s why for me, I wanted to share as much of my journey as I could with my audience. And I actually created a second account called no fake boobs, where I kind of showed more in detail about my whole procedure, just to be a resource for people because this is something that I wish that I had, you know, six years ago when I was going through this whole process just to have that information out there to know, okay, six years from now, you know, maybe these things are gonna get taken out.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So, yeah, no, that’s great. Listen, I, there’s a lot of lessons to be learned in that. And I think that one of the speakers we heard talk, they say there, or I think we froze here. We’ll see when you come back here, and we’ll edit this out because it looks like you froze for one second. I back. Hopefully, we’ll come back here, Michelle. Hey, sorry. We free Yeah, I got booted out so sorry. So what I was gonna say all that at that part is we learned to like, you know, our message is our message, right? And figuring out, but the thing that also happens in that just being authentic and being a resource is now you kind of crystallize who it is that you help. For me, my message has been, hey, I’m, I’m a, I’m a little neurotic, I have anxiety, I’m fatigued and exhausted, I don’t focus well. And I help people that are exhausted and burnt out. But I also attract more of the sort of anxious not focusing well, type of person that is looking for that as well. So do you feel like it’s gonna impact maybe a different set of coaching clients, given that you’re telling your, your personal story?   Michelle Kavanagh: Possibly, I mean, for me, it’s, um, there was no real strategy, I would say behind like, okay, these are the types of women that I want to, you know, now work with and help them grow their businesses online. Definitely, I think it could be helpful. I mean, even some of the people that have been following me like, they’re like, Oh, my aunt has this or my use. So now there, they’re helpful in the education. So even if it’s not my direct community, it’s now them helping other people too. And it just kind of grows from there as well. Something too, that I wanted to mention. Um, and why it’s so important to find a doctor that specializes in this is. because a lot of doctors just remove the implant. And that’s like a 20-minute procedure, right, you just go through the incision, you remove the implant, and you that you’re done. But when you do a proper x plant surgery is where you actually remove the full END block is what it’s called. And so essentially, what it is, is you have to have your implant, which is like a, you know, your bag, and then you’ve got a layer of tissue that develops around it because when it goes into your body, your body goes into a defense mode. And then so what happens is this tissue, that’s what really needs to be removed and it takes a microsurgeon to be able to go through and to cut out that layer over top. And so my surgery took over two hours to do versus just a 20-minute thing. So if you do get it removed, make sure that you ask the surgeon and you’ve done your research on if they do a full and block removal because it takes more skill and more time and a lot of doctors will try to avoid it. And you’ll still have the symptoms because all of the toxins will be stored in this layer over top. So I just wanted You to add that to it as well because it’s super important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, very, very important. It’s, you know, not all programs are created equal, right. And, and sometimes, I don’t want to say cheap, as you know, but you know, it can be doing. My wife always says to our kids, you know, the lazy man works twice as hard, right? And ultimately, if you’re not getting rid of that encapsulation tissue, but you saved a couple of dollars, or you didn’t do your due diligence, you’re not completely extinguishing the Ember. And now you haven’t really completely, that’s an awesome point. Thank you. So thank you so much for sharing that. So. So when with our guests, Michelle, we always like to end with, hey, given what you know, now, especially with what you’ve been through from a health journey, and then I guess you would call it the risk-reward, right? The cost-benefit outcome? What would you maybe have done differently with your health? What I always tell people like the sage, like Michelle would have whispered in the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Michelle, so many years ago, that may have saved your health challenges or just a different outlook on life, but what would you have shared back then to your younger self.   Michelle Kavanagh: I would have, first of all, not done it. And I would have started to go more on a spiritual journey earlier on in life. And I think that oftentimes when you reach for something, whether that’s food, alcohol, drugs, whatever your advice is to cope, we often it’s a band-aid solution. And this was essentially his date of life, but I was in that was a band-aid solution, it was a quick fix to like, I’m going to feel better about myself, I’m gonna, you know, all of these things. And so I think for me, I wouldn’t have done it. And I would have looked more internally, and maybe that’s switching up the people that I was surrounding myself with, looking at, probably, you know, maybe in my lifestyle choices, little not drinking, sometimes that kind of stuff, and just really started to try to be the best version of myself earlier on, and then trying to reach for all these quick fixes.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, sometimes we wouldn’t have figured that out if we didn’t go through that journey. Right. So I’ve had people say, like, well, I don’t think I could ever change that. But that’s awesome information. Michelle, thank you so much for all the wisdom you dropped here as far as how to the listeners, find out more about what you do with, with helping with sales and with understanding their personal skill sets and confidence and mastery. How do we get in contact and find out more about what you do?   Michelle Kavanagh: Yeah, so the best place is Instagram, and it’s just my full name plus an extra h. So it’s at Michelle Cavanaugh. And if you’ve got any questions, and you want to talk about sales, or if you want to talk about breast implants, or whatever, anything in between, please send me a message.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. And what I’ll do again, as I said, is all included in my show notes on my website and have a link there so they can go directly to you. But I want to be respectful of your time. Michelle, thank you so much for everything you shared with us. And most importantly, I wish you continued success on your health and life journey and look forward to hearing some successes along the way.   Michelle Kavanagh: Thank you so much.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Thanks, Michelle.   To follow Michelle on instagram, click here   The post Breast Implant Illness and Adrenal Fatigue appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we help exhausted and burnt-out adults learn the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And today, I’m joined by the real pioneer in the industry, Dr. Bill Cole. He’s the founder and creator of the key cellular nutrition and cellular health accelerator program, where he has a team of members of more than 30 dedicated health experts with diverse backgrounds that educate individuals on the steps needed to start improving their infrastructure of well being. Dr. Bill, thank you so much for being here today. Thank you for inviting me. Glad to be here. Yeah. So So I always like to start with my guests and ask them what their story is, in terms of why did you get into the world of functional or alternative medicine? What was your what were your own health challenges?   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah, well, it really goes back to high school for me, I was a baseball player, make a long story short, one day, I was running to first base to try to beat a ground ball out to the shortstop. And when I before I got to the bag, I felt something pop in my head, got an instant headache, took me out of the game. A couple of days later, the same thing happened. And they took me to the doctor said I had an ear infection happened again. Another doctor said I had a sinus infection both times they tried to put me on antibiotics. A friend of mine said, My dad’s a chiropractor, you should go see him I don’t even want a chiropractor was and I went down and saw it saw the guy took x rays of my neck adjusted my neck one time, problems never came back again. So that got me started. And then I got into Chiropractic and had, you know, thriving practice, I was in partnership with a guy that one of my closest friends and this guy was like, you know, he was the fittest of the fit. Like he walked the walk and didn’t just talk it and out of nowhere, he lost his health. I mean, God preaching health to people how to be healthy, right. And he was a national-level mountain bike competitor to boot. So he was like I say the fitness to the fit, he was truly fit. Well, he just watched his health go downhill. And he went to doctor after doctor test after test, nobody could find anything. Finally, an endocrinologist figured out this was after four years of him suffering. endocrinologist figured out that, you know, he said it sounds like you’ve got mercury in your brain because he had utter fatigue and all of these anxiety issues and couldn’t sleep like super couldn’t deal with stress in any way, shape, or form. Right? He would hear loud noises. And he would have to have his kids, his wife would have to take the kids out of the house. He just couldn’t stand any kind of noise. Well, he said, it sounds like mercury. And Dan said, You know, I thought the same thing. But I had my blood test. And it’s not. And he said, Well, you did the wrong test, you got to do this other test. And they did it and it was mercury off the charts. So he had his answer. But it took him another four years to figure out how to get this mercury out of his brain that was creating all of these downstream type issues, you know, symptom wise, watching that happen. Watching a guy, a guy that you thought was the picture of health, loses health through no fault of his own. It really opened my eyes and it got me thinking in a different direction. And here I am today basically dealing with those types of situations.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting to hear that I think we, as you know, I’m a chiropractic physician as well. And I had injured my back and I hadn’t, I didn’t really know what chiropractic was, and I from a traditional family of allopathic providers, and hey, you need to go for surgery. I mean, it was a 2.5 centimeter herniated disc, an L five s one. And I think I just access I just graduated with exercise physiology degree like I’m going to exercise, I’m going to get this better, I went to a chiropractor. And after that, I realized, okay, this is what I want to do. But then my own health in terms of fatigue, exhaustion, burnout, stimulants, lots of studying to get through stress burnt me out by the time I graduated, and like yourself, or with the story you had with your close friend then realize there’s more to it. So when you discovered that or that he had mercury poisoning and brain chemicals and having to get rid of it. How did that switch up what you were doing with your own practice and how that became your new sort of mission in life?   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah, well, it’s just, I can tell you there’s even a little bit deeper if you don’t mind me going into that. But that was the first part of it. And that got me thinking man, like what’s going on out here? Right? Are we seeing some kind of a tsunami that we’re not even dealing with? And it was about that same time it was shortly after he started to get better actually started to realize how do I get this mercury out of my brain. They had a tragedy in the family where they wound up him and his wife wound up adopting two seven-year-old twins a boy and a girl and the boy was on the autism spectrum. And he would hear, you know, paper crinkle and he would run into a corner and cover his ears and scream and taking these kids into the house. The doctors that were treating the boy said, Look, he’s never going to be normal. He’s always gonna be on medication, he’ll never go to regular school, right? Well, Dan didn’t accept that he knew what he experienced with his brain issues, right. And he knew that this kid had had some sort of a reaction to a vaccine, he was actually starting to work with the mom before she, she passed away. And he brought them into their home. And they started dealing with this from that, you know, why perspective set a merely treating the symptoms. And today, this kid that was supposed, unfixable is 22 years old, and you’d never know, he had a single problem. You know, so that to me, like when I saw that happening, it was like, Okay, this is a bigger deal. You know, we have something approaching our shores in this country right now, now health-wise, that I really think is the tip of the iceberg. And it just got me excited. And I realized that as much as I love chiropractic, and I still do, that there are bigger fish to fry when it comes when in terms of health. And from that point on, I just felt like I’ve got to get out. And I got to stop seeing patients one on one, right, because I didn’t have any time to really do the things that I wanted to do in my heart now. And I figured out a way to do that. And I’ve transitioned into it now. And I’m so glad that I don’t look back at all,   Dr. Joel Rosen: I’m so glad that I did it. Right, for sure. I mean, every adversity has that seed of greatness or that seed of mission-driven purpose. Now, I had the same thing happened to me, Bill, I had the decompression the Dr. x 9000. And I was wondering why are some people getting better on this? And some people aren’t. And that’s where I started getting into functional medicine and like, let me look a little bit deeper here. And then you see signs of inflammation and all is not right in the body. And like asking them, okay, well, if you want to take this to the next level, we got to see what’s happening at the cellular level. And that’s really what you’re doing now.   Dr. Bill Cole: So Well, I would say that you know, that’s a really good point, I actually had three directors myself, and I was really heavily into that. But you know, have I’ve been doing this for 37 years, and there’s been a dramatic shift. Even as a chiropractor the ability to help somebody cover practically it’s it changed drastically. We would have people come in and in the early stages when I was in practice, and you would do certain things that were predictably effective. And then you started to see that wane over time. And then you started to see strange situations come coming in, like women, for instance, who couldn’t lose weight no matter what they did, no matter how much they exercise, no matter how little they ate, I used to own a Gold’s Gym in my hometown. And it used to be easy. They’ve come in, you put them on a health program, put them on an exercise program, they lose weight. Well, that changed in the 90s in the later 90s. And looking back on it now I believe I know what it is, is just this toxic insult that we are exposed to right and especially women. And you know that that was just part of that whole process with me realizing that there are things now that chiropractic isn’t going to touch, because they can’t even hold an adjustment. Because they’re, you know.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Absolutely so. So that’s good that you got into that area now. And as far as with the settle Well, let’s back up to our so you know, my audience and I have a website called the truth about adrenal fatigue because it’s my mission when I suffered from my own exhaustion and fatigue problem. And I had already had an exercise physiology degree, a psychology degree, I graduated from chiropractic college, I like what the heck is adrenal fatigue, I’ve never heard of that before. And then only to find out that it’s a non-accepted term, it’s not legitimate, they laugh at you, you’re not taken seriously, you’ve actually thought of as a symptom magnifier, and one of those difficult clients or patients, and they just want to get you out of the office and refer you to someone else. So they don’t have to deal with you and take this or that just because you’re anxious or you’re depressed, and you need to control that. And I thought, well, if I’m not aware of this, and being treated this way, how many other people are, and so that’s become my life’s mission is to educate people that at the cellular level, you have a fatigue based problem, but I don’t want to steal your answer. So what do you tell people that that Adrenal Fatigue is, or I’m sure you have, you know, with your coaching and with your programs, there’s a component of problems with fatigue and exhaustion and burnout? How do you describe that to people and what it is?   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah, I mean, this first off, though, with that whole, you know, allopathic viewpoint as you know, it’s pretty simple, I think to understand for people, they realize that the medical doctors are where they’re trained. If you can’t give somebody a test, to be able to say, Well, hey, look, you’re pregnant, right? It’s black and white. If they don’t have that, then pretty much they’re dismissing it, you know. So they’re their mindset is such but I mean, just from, you know, a clinical stamp standpoint, you don’t have to be in practice very long before you realize that stress is playing a massive role in people’s lives. And when people think of stress, what do they think of Joel, they’re thinking like emotional stress, right? But there’s physical stress, there’s chemical stress, your body is not really going to differentiate ongoing stress is going to deplete, it’s going to create an adrenal response. And what we are teaching our clients is that, you know, we have these different stressors in our life, maybe you might even have genetic weakness, genetic susceptibility that gets turned on by the stressors, maybe you have these stressors, creating ultimately a leaky gut, in your situation in your body, right. So it’s creating a situation where you’re driving inflammation at the cell level, the analogy that we use is that the medical doctors, you know, they might identify some kind of an adrenal problem if they’re on the ball even, or a thyroid problem, that would be a better example, right. And they spend all of their effort dealing with that what we call downstream issue. And by downstream, I want to use this analogy, if a person has a stream that’s running by their house, and they’ve got fish in that stream that they love to see, right, and then all of a sudden, they notice those fish are getting sick, or they might be dying, they’re not thriving anymore, maybe the plant life isn’t thriving anymore, well, they can go out and they can try to deal with that issue, they can even put new fish into the water. But if the problem is actually 20 miles upstream, where there’s a chemical plant, dumping Mercury, let’s say into the water, you can deal with the fish and the plants all day long. If you don’t deal with the real cause of why they’re having a problem, then you’re not really going to do anything other than treating the person symptomatically. And I believe that’s what we’re seeing the effect of right we have these different stresses, one of them being chemical, for sure. I mean, I was just reading the other day the average female is exposed to or using 12 different beauty products and exposed to 168 different chemicals almost every day. That’s just from one thing in their life beauty products, right? So we have these stressors that are creating these downstream issues, adrenal thyroid, and then we’re focused on that. But it’s not that there isn’t a good reason to focus on the adrenals. Because certainly, you can help that person in the middle of their crisis, as you’re really starting to deal with these more upstream causative factors. But that’s the essential thing that we’re trying to teach our patients is that we’ve got to get to that cause we’ve got to get to the root cause reasons as to why you have low energy, why you can’t lose weight, why you can’t deal with stress?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great answer. I love it. And as far as the difficult paid clients or the client, not difficult, but the hard to help clients that were no longer holding their adjustments in the 80s. And the 90s, it’s even harder and harder and harder. And I would say upstream is not one major cause, but causes and plural and, and not even that just the vicious cycle that it creates, over and over and over again. And what I’m really excited to talk to you about though, is now that I know you were the owner of a Gold’s Gym, and the original biohackers, and how they use card variation, let’s kind of if you don’t mind, get into that a little bit because I think that your knowledge of, of, of, of those hacks, and how to cycle and variate and actually customize a recovery strategy to get at the root cause and implement that with your strategies. How do you go about doing that from the moment like, okay, like, pretend I don’t know anything? And you know, I have major health challenges, and you want to get upstream? What’s your methodology bill and doing that?   Dr. Bill Cole: I mean, so we’re approaching that from a cellular perspective, right, we automatically know that the cell is we’re all function happens in the human body, our cells are our building blocks, you know, they’re the foundation of our existence. And all function comes from ourselves. So any dysfunction that a person has any symptom, any disease is always traceable back to something gone wrong at that cellular level. So you know, that’s going to be our foundation, we need to identify what are the things that are damaging us from a cellular level. And by that, I mean, even you know, we’re talking way upstream at the brain cell level. And so it can be a bad diet, right? It can be too many toxins, it can be not enough quality sleep, it can be stress in our lives, it can be nutrient deficiencies, it can be that damage leaky gut. So we’re first of all looking at this thing from a multi-therapeutic multifactorial standpoint. Instead of just Looking at that one issue that the person might have come in with symptom-wise, and when you when we’re looking at it from that perspective, I mean, it’s, it’s can potentially lead us into a lot of different directions. I mean, it can be mold in a person’s home, it can be cavitations, old root canals, there are a lot of things that people are not even thinking of that can be at the root cause of this. But you mentioned the car variation, right? diet variation is what we say, we have, we have the typical American who comes in, and they’re basically eating the same diet. Day after day, week, after week, year after year, they’re driving what we would call mtorr, which is this growth pathway. And it’s not a bad thing. It’s just when you stay in mtorr, all the time. It’s highly inflammatory, right, and it can create its own set of problems. Our ancestors didn’t live that way, you know, that Joe, right, where you, you had people that seasonally, they didn’t even have access to carbohydrates. So maybe during the wintertime, they were eating a low carb diet, and they were eating a high-fat diet, medium protein, they were in ketosis, they didn’t know what that was, they didn’t have the name for it, then. But they were in ketosis, which was out of necessity. And then come spring, summertime, they had access to berries, and they had access to tubers and roots, or whatever, that increase their carb load, got them out of ketosis, now their body’s more in a sugar burning mode. And that variation, as we know, now, through science is really helpful for things even like our microbiome, just changing the way that we’re eating can change our microbiome, it can change inflammation in the body, it can re-sensitize ourselves to their hormones. And so while we don’t have to eat like that anymore, we can choose to just go to the convenience store and eat bad all day, every day, right? We know, though, that we can make these changes. So we take the typical person to steam, let’s talk about that female who can’t lose weight, no matter what she does, she’s super stressed out, you know, nothing’s working, she’s got maybe an autoimmune disease that has been identified. And we say, okay, that low energy you have, that’s a sign of something going on with you, right, that inability to lose weight to burn body fat, for energy, that’s a sign of deeper issues. So we’re going to take that person, we’re gonna say, instead of being stuck in sugar-burning mode, because the typical person that we know, especially female, they are relying on carbohydrates as their fuel source, our body gets energy from fat or carbs. And so we’re saying you’re stuck in sugar burning mode, you’re stuck in carb-burning mode, we need to get your mitochondria, your energy factories inside yourself good at burning fat for energy, you might think it’s an inconvenience, you’re talking to the person right now, you might think it’s an inconvenience, that you just can’t lose weight, right? Or that you do not feel as energetic as you should be. But it’s really a sign of something deeper, it’s driving inflammation in your body. It’s one of the reasons why you can’t think straight anymore, it’s even affecting your gut. And so we take them off of that high carb type of existence, get them into ketosis. And that’s our goal, we cut carbs way down. And just that shift, that shift in metabolism, where now we’re forcing the body to burn fat for energy. It makes such a difference, not just in the ability to start burning fat for energy, but really change all of these underlying health issues, these red flags that are staring us in the face, and we’re not connecting them. But they are related. They’re all related together.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great answer as well. And I think that just to add on to the end tour thing, or the growth phase, you’re right, it’s not a bad thing. I mean, to gestate have a child to repair as a builder of muscle, you want that growth, but you also knew like you just can’t go balls to the wall and expect it’s going to be linear, and you’re just you got to kind of cut into changing up and varying the body especially based on ancestrally how our body has evolved over the millennia, but one of the things I was gonna say that I’ve been researching bill is all of the environmental factors that push me toward that we’re not even aware of like, EMF push em tour, and we’re not escaping that at any time soon. I think there’s a thing to this internet I think it’s gonna catch on you know, and then as far as iron, we and we enriched foods with iron, we enrich fortified foods with synthetic vitamins and folic acid which pushes em tour, pesticides and sprays, push em tour, you know, you were talking about that mercury from that plant 20 miles up, but, you know, I think it’s estimated over 90% of the water is polyester-based hormone disruptors and endocrine disruptors. And estrogenic disruptors, so it’s really hard to, you know, to turn them tore off enough to allow your body to be metabolically flexible to be able to tap into healthy fats. But I guess what I would like to know is, you also know the flip side of a tough eg. And you also know, as perhaps like, you look like a guy who worked out and who’s owned a gym and understands the different phases of growth and cutting down. So how do you apply that now? Like, what is sort of those clinical pearls are the nuggets that you use once you’ve just identified getting up upstream, getting them to shift their car burning to fat burning? But what are some of the other tools that you’re using our strategies?   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah, sure. And getting into a toffee G is really, it’s a major thrust with us, right? Because we want to be moving in and out of fat-burning sugar burning, but we also want, we also want to get into that autophagy state where your body is preferentially going to start burning up damaged, diseased, dysfunctional tissue. I had someone say to me the other day that, and I’m sure you hear this all the time that things like fasting, it starvation, it’s not healthy. And I was like, no, it’s, it’s the opposite like we were made too fast. If you don’t believe that, how could our body automatically go into burning up damage, disease, dysfunctional tissue when we stop eating? Food, right, that’s it, that’s not a sign right there that we were made that fast. And then at the same time, you start increasing, you know, juvenile cell production, right, so stem cells start increasing tremendously. We were made too fast. So we incorporate that Joe, we do intermittent fasting, we’ll do partial fasting, we even get into extended water fasting, we tried to prepare for the extended water fasting, prepare the clients, because a lot of people that are stuck in sugar burning mode, for them to just jump right into a five-day water-only fast, it’s going to be rough, they’re going to have a rough ride with that. But yeah, fasting is certainly one of the tools that we do also. And then we also do this diet variation, what we can take it down to weekly, we might have somebody once they’re in ketosis for a while and we’re seeing positive change. It’s the same with ketosis, we don’t stay we don’t recommend that anyone stay in that all the time. And so we might do what we call a 511 program, or were five days a week, they are in ketosis one day a week, they’re fasting for 24 hours. And then one day a week, we’re super loading carbs, they might be getting 200 grams of carbs a day. And that that variation, right there is going to keep T for converting into T three, a lot of other benefits that will happen in terms of metabolic keep the ball rolling. And so there’s just a lot of different ways that we can vary the in and out of that mtorr, autophagy, ketosis, and sugar burning. So it all adds up to a lot of positive benefits that science is really, really showing the effect of that now before it was mostly conjecture. I used to be a bodybuilder. And I would know that if I didn’t, I didn’t know what it meant that if I would train too hard if I and I’m getting ready for a show, right? And I would be dieting super strictly. And then I would see my results start to go down and even reverse in some cases, I would start looking worse. And then one day that was happening before the show, I couldn’t take it anymore. I just lost motivation. from seeing everything in reverse. I had my wife order me a pizza, and I ate that entire pizza. And it was only weeks before the show I thought I had blown it. And I got up the next day. And I was like holy cow. Like I look, I look so much better. Right? So that was my first instance and realizing that we’ve got to vary things. And we get real benefit from that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s really great. And you know, I’m going to segue into it because before we started, you told me used to do one-on-one, and you even mentioned it in this interview. And then now you have you’re able to do group calls or group coaching and module systems. But you’re the other thing I thought was interesting is the shifting of I think the early adopters for functional medicine are tests happy, right? And they want to do all these different tests, not a test happy for themselves. But hey, I want to help you and I want to give you so much information, it almost becomes putting the cart before the horse. And it also becomes just too much information where the real actionable steps are what you just mentioned. So so maybe you can tell the listener, I think it’s a good towel for maybe a functional medicine doctor, like when you’re playing poker, and you know, they have like a really good hand. A good towel for someone who’s in functional medicine that may be new to the game is running 1001 different tests, right? Because they want to know like, you know, they want to help you but so maybe give us a little elucidation on that as to why you know you don’t feel the need to test as much anymore and why that actually help someone versus hinder them.   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah, they, you can get lost in that for sure. And even from the patient perspective, they can get super focused on it. And I just I did the same thing, right when I got out, I just like I wanted to gather as much information as possible, and you want to be able to show somebody on paper-like, this is what’s going on with you, right. And you do that enough. And I think I probably have done more blood testing than most people for sure. I’m an old man, I’m 62. And I’ve been doing this a while. And I just got to the point I actually the guy that I’m telling you about. Dan, right, this my partner, my business partner, he’s he has his own thing now where he’s teaching doctors how to implement what he learned, you know, through his own struggles. And I called him on the phone one day, and this was a few years ago. And I said, Dan, I said, the question for you. I said, If you did, if you couldn’t run any tests, you could you never had another test result in front of you. How much do you think your result would change? And he said, almost nothing. And I had felt the same thing myself. And, you know, the thing with us was when, especially when we got involved with this whole virus thing last year, you couldn’t even do the testing a lot of times because the labs were, they were not keeping up. And we have a, we have we see a lot of people. And I was forced into it. And I was like, Okay, I’m done. I’m not going to do that anymore. We’re going to rely on what I believe that I know. And I can tell you that our results have not suffered one bit without a single test. Because generally, you know, this, it’s the same thing that we’re seeing with people, these unexplainable illnesses, it goes back to that cell level, what are we doing? I named those stressors, right? is a diet, is it toxins? Is it hidden infections? are you dealing with, you know, sleep issues? are you dealing with stress issues? are you dealing with nutrient deficiencies? tackle those things, look at that, from that multi-therapeutic multifactorial standpoint, and I’m telling you 99% of the issues, even more, you’re going to get the same result, you’re not going to need to do all of that testing, it saves the clients a ton of money, number one, but it goes even deeper than that. I think there’s a lot of downside to that because they get so locked into something that is literally could go they could go back the next day and do that same test, and it could be a different result. Right? Yeah. Is it even accurate? Like even relates to the saliva testing right for the adrenal is a lot of times people are given bad information?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I would agree with that. I did a study once where I use two different saliva companies to test my cortisol and they were so different. And I don’t do saliva testing anymore. I do like the Dutch test. But I’ll tell you what, I agree with you, where if you’re addressing the foul, assume guilty until proven otherwise, right? Let’s just assume everything is inflamed. Let’s assume you have micronutrient deficiencies, you have chemical exposures, you have pathogens you have, you know, all these different things that are going on, what would we do about it? First, you know, what would we want to dial down that intensity switch of everything. And that a lot has to do with just adopting a healthier diet and getting micronutrients that your grandmother would recognize as real food, you know, and doing all these basic things. But I would also say to like, as you know, like the some of these Perfect Storm clients that come into you now are so perfect storm in terms of they have all of the environmental triggers, and all of these potential genetic susceptibilities, were for me, I do like a neutral genomic DNA test as a blueprint, like, hey, let’s just put the blueprint on the table. And let’s kind of see like, what your potentials are. And then you could, you could still not do any other test after that. implement strategies like what you’re doing to help that patient. And when they hit plateaus, or they don’t feel like the needles moving any further, then that’s where you can say, Hey, you know what, you have the potential to not be able to lower your glutamate. And we got to be aware of that, or you have a potential where you’re not able to repair your cell membrane, and we need to be able to do that. Would you agree with that?   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah. There’s gonna be a big distinction between more of a functional test, versus, you know, what we would consider being more of an allopathic test. That’s what I was mostly talking about. But certainly, there are going to be specific tests out there, they’re going to show us or at least guide us in areas that we can pay extra attention to focus on. Yeah, for sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I had a client who was in through the VA, and they ran like major like celiac issues and major challenges and that just drives me crazy, where it’s like, okay, you’re not celiac. So go ahead and eat gluten, right? Because, you know, just, and I always tell people, you know, all celiacs are gluten reactive, but not all gluten reactives are celiac. But just bill I was looking like I do a case review, I look at the stacks of paperwork, and I’m looking through it. I’m like, there’s nothing in here. That’s qualitative information. It’s just basic blood work. And they’re making all these assumptions. And they’re not diving deep enough, let alone they’re not doing that 80% of becoming cellularly healthy to help move the needle. You know, it’s very frustrating in that regard, very much. So yeah. So So okay, so as far as now, like, I’m interested to know, like what you do as a practitioner, you said, You have different coaching programs and different like, Can you give us a little information on how that works? And what that do?   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah, most of what we’re seeing right now, our thrust has been females, aged 40 to 70, who are essentially dealing with known or suspected hormonal issues, primarily thyroid, Hashimoto. Right. But you know, as well as I do, that, they’re going to come with a lot of adrenal problems, these things go together. And you know, we are, we’re getting a lot of these people who come in with Hashimoto, they’ve got underlying autoimmune disease. And we’re looking at it from the cellular perspective, we’re teaching them, what we call the five R’s of cellular healing are number one, you’ve got to remove that source, you know, is it going to be the toxins? Is it going to be infections, whatever it might be? Are you living in a moldy home, those types of things have to be identified. If you keep throwing gas on a fire, you’re not going to put the fire out. But then from there, we’ve got to start up-regulating energy, right. So most of the people that we see their, their dog tired, they’re women who can’t come they came in imagine coming home after work, and cooking a big meal, cleaning their house, or not even ever believing they can go spend an hour in a gym working out, right? If they can’t get their energy level up, they’re not going to heal, and how much energy does it take for a person to heal? I’m not talking about like, you know, you scrape yourself a week later, you’re healed, we’re talking deep-seated issues here brain issues, maybe that might take six months or a year or even two years to heal. That’s a lot of energy reserve that they’ve got to be able to direct or that healing process. Well, if it’s not there, they’re not going to heal. So we’ve got to upregulate energy levels, there are natural ways like we were just talking about in terms of diet variation. And they can do that certain types of exercise once they get to the point that they can exercise that can help to do that. But reducing inflammation in the body, you know, regenerating the cell membrane. That’s one of the five Rs. We’re big in fat consumption, right? We’ve been told for years. Fat causes heart disease, fat makes you fat, fat kills you. We’re saying no, it’s bad fat that bad fats that do that good fats are going to do the opposite. That cell membrane is damaged, it’s made of two layers of fat, your brain is 70 to 80%. fat. If you’re in pain, your nerve covering 70 to 80% fat, right? So the biggest missing ingredient, the standard American diet is a healthy fat. So we’re doing what we call the 180-degree solution, what we’ve been told is wrong, we’ve got to do the opposite. We’ve got to do what our ancestors did when they didn’t have obesity, they didn’t have diabetes, nobody had heart disease to speak of in any great numbers or cancer. Right. But we’ve been told that the foods that they ate are taboo, we need to do you know, we need to get away from them. Now we’re saying no 190 degrees of what you’ve been told. So that five RS is our major thrust. Joel, we’re, we’re focusing on that cell. Always with the understanding, though, that whatever you might be seeing downstream, there could be deeper issues happening in the brain. I know I’m babbling on here. But an important point to know is that these toxins that were exposed to many of them have an affinity for our hypothalamus in our brain and our pituitary. That’s use in control for our hormones, right, adrenal, thyroid. And if we don’t get up into that area there and we start dealing with the fact that those accumulated toxins are going to potentially be manifesting itself further downstream, then again, it’s just it’s more than just treating symptoms.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting, because when you get really nerdy like us, and you get into the cellular mechanics, it’s almost like a sci-fi movie where these pathogens or these inflammatory cytokines, or these heavy metals are these, these just these endocrine dis? They are called induction disruptors, they’re mitochondrial disruptors, they’re enzyme disruptors. They kind of know like, Okay, if we can And take out the firefighter crew, you know, or we can stop the recycling of antioxidants, or we can slow down the production of ATP, or we can poach, and parasitically, you know, steal from your machinery, then those are going to be the key hotspots that we’re going to focus in on. And ultimately, that’s what research shows now is like heavy metals will slow down the recycling of antioxidants or slow down the ability for ATP production or slow down the ability for neurotransmitter production. And that’s what we’re seeing, we’re seeing exhaustion, we’re seeing like just crazy amounts of behavioral depression, aggression. You know, it’s scary to think   Dr. Bill Cole: It is. And I think we haven’t really touched on a lot. But this whole damage to the gut, this leaky gut syndrome, that we’re seeing over 1600 studies in medicine, they call it intestinal permeability, right. And we might call it leaky gut. But Hippocrates, the father of modern medicine, said that he believed all disease begins in the gut, I used to not believe that and I used to actually rail against that didn’t make sense to me. But the more I got into this and realize that there is almost always some basis for these health problems in an unhealthy gut, it’s, it’s the antibiotics that we’re taking, I was reading not long ago that the one round of antibiotics can wipe out 30% of our good bacteria. How many people listening right now have had two rounds, five rounds, 10 rounds over a lifetime, right? And then it’s, it’s the antibiotics in our food. It’s the antibacterial soap, how much antibacterial soap has been used over the last year, you know, chlorine in our water, insecticides, pesticides, glyphosate, the active ingredient, Roundup, it’s endemic in our food supply. Even organic food shows some traces of glyphosate, it’s everywhere. And four seconds after it hits the lining of your gut, it begins breaking your gut down. And, and then it does even other nasty things like picking up aluminum heavy metals and delivering it to your brain like a taxicab. So, yeah, we’ve got to go down to that gut-level too and start working on fixing these damaged guts. And that driving inflammation every day, my experience is that we don’t focus on that person isn’t going to get their full health back.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, yeah, I agree. I mean, let’s put like aluminum and deodorant and just smear it onto our body every day. And let’s drink out plastic cups that, you know are gonna have disruption to our endocrine and let’s put, you know, it’s just pesticides in the foods and let’s give our cows antibiotics and hormones. And it’s like, we’re the weirdos for calling these things out. And like, you know, it’s frustrating. But do you is there I know you are very mission-driven and purpose-driven and have battle cries, I’ve been to a learn to live it seminar before and I love the message I really do? Is there a bigger message or mission in terms of, Hey, we don’t just want to help at the cellular level per se, like I always say, you know, frequencies first, right frequency is energy, it’s wavelengths? And that impacts the cell. And then the cells come together and form tissues. And tissues become together to form organs, organs come together to form systems. And then upstream from the system actually, you know, on the other side of the system is frequency again, and really what you want is the frequency ups, you know, at the cellular level above and frequency at the system level being incoherence. So that now that all flows nicely, I guess the question I have for you is, is there a deeper purpose because I always thought that if we can get healthcare practitioners together, and really try to make social changes, like with what we’re doing with our GMOs and what we’re doing with our, our, you know, adjutants and vaccines and what we’re doing with so many things, aluminum in our dealer, it’s like, Is there a mission on your business model? Or is there a message that I don’t mean to put you on the spot? But no,   Dr. Bill Cole: I mean, it’s, it’s super valid, because without that, where are we going to wind up? Are things getting better? Are things getting worse? I mean, they’re markedly worse, right? I think that’s the whole thing with that change in the 90s that I saw, from the time that I graduated. Talk about getting upstream, right? Like if we can deal with the body, but if we’re not dealing with all of these issues outside that are damaging us, then we’re in deep trouble. And I think the thing we’re so up against right now is that they’ve got the forces of law aligned against us, man. And it’s, it’s a battle, right? So you can get into deep trouble speaking the truth right now. And we’re seeing that happen all the time. But I mean, somebody’s got to, we’ve got to have people that are willing to step up, and just speak that because otherwise, we’re gonna get buried. And that’s, that’s what we’re seeing that in other areas of life right now. But there are these inherent truths out there that relate to health. The system is against us, we are being damaged, and we’re being damaged in the name of the economy or whatever it might be. So yeah, I totally hear you that we’re doing our part to get that message out.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. By doing this, you know, the analogy I look at is the the the analogy of thinking about I just lost my train of thought. That’s, that’s great, though, we were talking about how to make a difference. Oh, jeez. Anyways, hopefully, it’ll come back. It was, I was excited to tell you about it. But it was. So I always like to ask my guests Hey, look, you know,  your why Sage guy now. And you have all these battle scars, if you will, on your armor that makes you stronger for the next battle? What would you have told sort of the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed bill that you wish you would have known then that you know, now that could have made a bigger difference, a bigger impact propelled you forward or given you some enlightenment that would have avoided some of the trials and tribulations?   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah, I think as it relates to health, it’s just that we get so focused on the symptoms, right. And we say it so many times, I think it might even lose the impact on us. But this is, this is how things work, even in the natural field, like we can rail about the medical doctors. And we can say that, you know, they’re focused on symptoms, they give you medications, that are not dealing with the cause. And the medications are harming you, and blah, blah, blah, and it’s true. But in my experience, even in our realm, in the natural field, right? When you’re dealing with this alternative scheme, you’re, you’re still seeing the same thing only with supplements, and I’m not against supplements, we use them. But you’re not going to make up for what we’re seeing with supplements, it’s not going to happen. And that’s why people have bagfuls of supplements, they come to our offices, and they’re never getting their help man. We take more supplements in any nation in the world to and we’re still the sickest nation that has ever lived. So yeah, the young me, I wish I would have had more of that focus, that really focus on the cause because I talked about Joe, I talked about the cause as a chiropractor, and in some ways, we were dealing with that. But we were really missing the bigger picture. They’re the things you just talked about all of these things that make up this paradigm, we’ve got to, to look at that thing in total. And I think that’s what was missed early on.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s great, it’s a great answer. It’s one of my best answers is in terms of, it’s not just greenwashing the supplement of the medications for supplement purpose and say, Okay, I did the work, you know, the cold hard reality is there’s no being stocked with the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, that you can just plant that and do it. I remembered what I was gonna say. So basically, what I was gonna say is, you know, the analogy is sort of like the insurance-based model, right? And we know it’s broken. We know it’s an acute-based model, we know it’s about it politically incorrect, saying like, we’re not really going to get you better, we’re just going to keep you sicker longer, and we’re going to give you the medication. But why can’t this be a win-win in the sense that even the powers that be that stand to lose a lot of money, if they were to switch things, how they were, you know, what they were, what the new paradigm would be? Why can’t it be a win-win, where they will be more profitable, and with a healthier solution. So in that way, insurance companies can start charging a lower premium for their healthier people, and give them the incentive to be healthy, and save a lot of money on unnecessary procedures. reward the client that takes those risks or takes those lifestyle changes to lower those actuary tables so that now more of the money is in the insurance dollars, they’re passing some of the savings to them. And, you know, they don’t have to fight the dogmatic unbroken system like why can’t we do that at the same level of health and all the crappy shit we put excuse the language that we put in the, in the in our products?   Dr. Bill Cole: And I think that the answer to that is probably because it makes too much sense. You know, it’s just like, look around. I mean, there’s anything we see right now in health that makes a whole lot of sense. It doesn’t look does the last year, in so many months makes sense to anybody. I mean, to me, it doesn’t. I don’t think we’ve been focused on one thing when, who’s been talking about the immune system has been talking about building resistance, right? The sensible things are not there. You’re generally not profitable, but the way you described it, yeah, that makes total sense, but I A lot of hope that we’re ever going to see that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, I hope we do I, you know, I look at my wife likes to watch those murder shows and the mysteries and stuff like that. And there’s the whole conspiracy theory of Santa Sam and David Berkowitz and how he didn’t act alone. And because the police department wanted a nice quick and easy, you know, a conviction. But you know, I don’t get why Okay, well, hey, we looked at you know, we looked at the case more thoroughly, and we found out that this is what’s actually going on, you come up looking better versus not it’s just common sense is not common. Right. You know, that’s the point. Yep. Yeah. So how do people find out more about what you do a bill and where to reach you and how to get in contact with you and into the programs? You do?   Dr. Bill Cole: Yeah. So I’m technologically incompetent. So I’m reading here, but it’s Dr. Bill Cole Comm. You can go to Dr. Bill Cole on Facebook and Instagram. You can tell I have a giant team that does everything for me.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s good. Listen, you got to spend the time doing what you’re best at and that’s helping people make healthy changes and get their lives back. So listen, I appreciate the time that you shared with me today. Lots of interesting content to share with our listeners and I wish you nothing but future success in all your health endeavors and business endeavors and family endeavors and wish nothing but the best for you.   Dr. Bill Cole: Thank you And likewise, Doc, Thank you much.   To learn more about Dr. Bill click here   The post Overcoming Root Causes For Burnout With Dr. Bill Cole appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

https://youtu.be/4F2OJKHli78 Dr. Joel Rosen: All right. Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m joined with a real special guest today, Frank Benedetto, who is on a mission because he sees the flaws in the healthcare system. And his mission is really disrupting healthcare, helping clinicians reimagine and repackage their skill set to change the world. So Frank, thank you so much for being here today. Joel, what’s up, man? Thanks for having me. Yeah, so listen, I’m just gonna be totally transparent. I, you, and I have a mentor that is, is we have in common, and we had a mastermind meeting last week. And when I heard you speak, you were a guest speaker for him. I was like, Okay, I got to talk to this guy. Because as soon as you opened your mouth, I know we had that same frequency and vibration and alignment and coherence. And really, you started with your personal story. And you also let us know what drives you every day, to make a difference in the world. So why don’t you share that with our listeners?   Frank Benedetto: Yeah, absolutely. appreciate those kind words, too. So my story’s a little dark. My story, my story is, is not one that was born from a place of positivity, and it pretty much started to give you the background. I was 17, luckily knew what I want to do with my life. Somehow, I broke my leg and said, I am going to be a physical therapist. And even at that young age, in my college application, I had finished with saying that I was going to revolutionize the field of physical therapy by incorporating positive psychology. And that young me I almost look back How the hell did I even sense that there’s something wrong at that young age, but I think everybody knows, I think that they’re the typical consumer if they spend any amount of time reflecting on what the healthcare system is right now. It is so obviously broken, we’re all just allowing it. So fast forward, I become a Doctor of Physical Therapy. I become double board-certified top 1% of pts in the country if you want to judge it by that credentialing. And I always had life in the palm of my hands. I was 26 years old double board-certified, bought a house had two kids married. And then tragedy strikes. My dad 64 years old, passed away of a heart attack right in front of me. And I imploded, I spun down a path of Drug Abuse and Alcoholism, I had pushed away nearly everyone close to me. I lost everything, you know, and that huge head start I had erased it. I was $200,000 in self-created debt. Now from student loans. And after I had sold my house, Joel that takes a lot of mistakes. That’s, that’s, that’s master-level mistake making right there to get 200k in debt. And my 30th birthday, I wake up just an absolute loser. And I think 30 every decade we have this image of who I think we’re going to be. On my 30th birthday, I could not have been farther from the person who I thought I was going to be and it was an inflection point. I happen to hate on some motivational videos trying to just muster the energy to get through the day. And there’s this one line and he said this year, this year is the year I’m going to make this goal become reality. And, and I got out of the shower that day and I literally declared it I said I am I will. I always thought I was gonna be a millionaire by the time I was 30 kind of an image or goal, you know, just rooted. Oh, Emily and money. And at that moment, I decided I was going to make a million in my 30th year since I’d failed so miserably. 30 days later, I launched my first business with two of my friends we go direct to consumer, which is not typically a physical therapy works. And we made 1.1 million in our first year no advertising, no physician referrals all direct to consumer. And that’s really when this mission started because I did something that they said really couldn’t be done in the physical therapy world which is to exit the medical model. We had built and built that practice up we sold it for several million dollars later, three years, four years later. And then I pursued my real passion which was inspiring other healthcare professionals to follow my path and reimagine repackage their skill set so that they could treat in the way that they believe and I believe very much in line with your philosophy. The majority of our chronic health conditions are coming from this overworked, malnourished underexercised stressed-out archetype of a person who I was for those years between my dad and I had to go through a lot of self-healing, both physiologically emotionally. And I’m excited to dig in more with you about how we as a profession can help that archetype.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I know, thank you so much for sharing your mission. And I think I always and you’ve heard this success leaves clues. And I think, you know, our message, our message, which we learned, and ultimately, that’s the success of why you can help so many people is because there’s no facade, you know, you’re transparent. And you’ve you’re, you’re vulnerable, which makes people understand that you’re not holier than thou, and you can help them and I think that kind of aligns with the changing of the health the way it’s, it’s delivered as well. But well, why don’t you just go back? I didn’t write it down already. I have already some notes here. But what was it the phrase or what was how did you want to revolutionize physical therapy with psychology? What was that term? What did you say with that?   Frank Benedetto: Yeah. So my 17 years old me declared that I was going to revolutionize the field of physical therapy by incorporating positive psychology, Incorporated head. Yeah,   Dr. Joel Rosen: Go ahead. No, go ahead. Yep.   Frank Benedetto: So I believe that there’s still a massive issue with what we call no CBOE language. No CBOE language is the impact that a healthcare professional has the impact their words have physiologically. So we typically think of no CBOE or placebo with pills, I can give you a sugar pill and say, listen, that there’s a 20% chance you’re gonna develop a headache. What happens have a good chunk of the people who take that and hear that they get a headache, it was a sugar pill, what we don’t realize is that we don’t actually need the pill. It’s the words that are causing that. And there are so many interactions in a traditional healthcare provider day today where it’s become routine. They’re not even conscious of the words they’re saying. And those words can either heal or hurt us. And part of our mission is to help healthcare professionals build sustainable businesses around the ethical way to treat because the medical model perpetuates no secret language.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, with the anchoring of the positive, positive mental psychology leading the way. Right, right. And so so one of the things I want to just kind of comment on is 17, I did not know I was nowhere near you on 17. And how prophetic you were on that. In fact, I screwed around my first two years of college, I was away from home for, the first time, at 19 years of age, I was on the varsity soccer team, going to class was an option. I just knew that, Okay, I gotta get enough to get by, right? I just got to get enough to get by, I don’t really know what I want to do. And I say, Frank, I tried like, you try either to do well, or you try to do poorly. And I went out of my way to do poorly, like, not going all the classes taking like, okay, like you would have like, say, a quiz. And it would be Monday, Wednesday, Friday’s class, Monday, Wednesday, Friday’s class, so you’d have to have 12 weeks of notes or 12 notes for four weeks. And I wouldn’t have Mondays and I wouldn’t have Fridays and maybe the neck. And I did really well on the ones that I had with but I didn’t do well on the ones I didn’t have. And my GPA was low, and I did really poorly. Two, two, I went out of my way to do poorly. Those are my first two years. And then I was a trainer, personal trainer. After I graduated, I brought my GPA up in the second and third, and fourth years. And hey, you know, it’s interesting when you try how it’s easier, you know, and it’s amazing how much easier this is. This is the whole point of it. I tried to get into the chiropractic college in Canada, and it bit me in the butt because my first two years were so poor. So what I did was I went back, and I really enjoyed psychology. So I got a second degree after exercise physiology. I got it in psychology and I loved psychology. Once again, I didn’t get into the Canadian chiropractic college because they didn’t consider that second-degree full-time. Because when your GPA applies to getting in, it needs to be full-time. So I had Dean’s honor roll like amazing grades. And I didn’t get in. And I thought what a friggin waste of time to get a psychology degree. I could have just gone to the states and I grew up in Toronto, and I could have just taken a fast track course and got in and how wrong I was. And that’s the whole point of what I’m talking about is I’m so grateful now Frank that I have that psychology degree because that positive mental psychology practice is what we do every day, right? And I’m so grateful that I have that. So with that being said, let’s go down that rabbit hole in terms Okay, you’re 30 years old, you have this mission of, of changing the way that physical therapy and for that matter, Healthcare’s practice with an emphasis on positive mental psychology takes us through the steps of that and how you’ve evolved in terms of what you see is wrong with the health care model and how you change that ship in the ocean.   Frank Benedetto: Yeah, so I think it starts with getting paid on your outcomes, not on your time, or complexity of your services. What I mean by that is that there’s this growing notion that there’s an understanding that the health insurance field, so broken, yet many clinicians are afraid to leave it. And what I like to say is, it’s time to put your money where your outcomes are, and actually get paid to help people. Now, the insurance industry has tried to trick providers into thinking that that means taking outcome-based questionnaires that they have set. I’m not talking about that. What I’m saying is, it sounds like you get paid to help people remedy their adrenal condition, you have a very specific outcome, I’m going to help you go from tired burnt out, sickly, no energy, not exercising, eating like shit, I’m going to help create this new version of yourself vibrantly, energized, healthy, fulfilled. That promise is what you sell, deliver upon that, and your reputation will grow, word of mouth referrals will come, marketing will be easy. But it’s because you declared what the outcome was. Most healthcare professionals get paid off of the delivery of a service. Regardless of the outcome, as a physical therapist, I could make an entire 30-year career delivering treatments that don’t work, no one will stop me. The insurance will keep paying, the medical doctors will keep referring there is a gap between the payor. And the outcome, therefore, is allowed to perpetuate for eternity.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there are so many ramifications of that. Because if you’re now creating a more effective outcome, that should be the standard of care, the standard of care changes and demands change. But one thing I want to digress with, I had a client who was just not but he was a family practice practitioner and a traditional approach doctor. And I didn’t realize that I think this is like a dirty secret. Maybe you can elucidate this a little bit. But he was part of a managed care network. And the way that those doctors get compensated was really scary to hear about sort of the in-between. And so basically, it was telling me in some way, shape, or form where I didn’t quite understand it, where Medicare versus opting out and doing what the alternative is. And it behooves them to get the ones into Medicare that aren’t as sick or don’t demand as many services versus other ones that would be led into this managed care. And what’s happening is, to your point, it’s not delivering the outcome based on the standard of care that works. It’s deciding on how to use the system for most reimbursement based on if that person is healthy or not. It just made me sick to my stomach thinking about that. And how you know I get met with doc patients that I meet like see as we do it all coaching we don’t bill insurance, I see people distantly all through the world. So I can’t bill across borders, like in third parties, which is which allows me to spend more time with them. But the whole point is is that with the reimbursements, they are deciding on I’ll say, Hey, get this test done. My doctor, I can do a test for you with a co-op, and week it’s going to be a cash price, it will be greatly discounted. But ask your doctor if you can do this. And I would always be surprised like why are their doctors not running the test like this is you need this and they’ll say well, you don’t need this. It’s not important. You don’t need this. And then when I was talking to the doctor, the light bulb went off were in a way it cuts into their reimbursement fee schedule. If they go beyond the sard of care and what you know, the ICD nine or the in Insurance codes are and what it allows. I don’t know if maybe you do you speak of that? Or do you? Does that incorporate into your mission? Yeah, it’s all   Frank Benedetto: it’s all revolved around, how much can I bill how much is that, and not everyone is evil, but they don’t realize like, it’s if you’ve watched the movie, the matrix, they’re plugged in. And they have lost scope of what reality is. So I have friends, good friends who I know are good people. But they are focused so much on operating within the system, that they forget that operating outside of it is even a possibility. So it skews their decision-making lens. Therefore, they think through the lens of what the insurance will cover, my mom was recently diagnosed with stage three cancer, colon cancer, and she’s got a good prognosis. She’s fighting hard. We’re at the doctor’s, earlier this week because she’s not having a good reaction to chemo. And there’s an entire argument around chemo that we could go into. And the doc was like, Oh, I think she needs this medicine. And the assistant said, Oh, but that’s not covered. Okay, let’s try something else. Let’s Whoa, if that’s the medicine that she needs, let’s just talk about what it would take to get that. And it was like something like $200 for the month. Now, for some people, there might be a real issue with that. But for others, that’s a matter of priority to that 200 bucks as a matter of priority, not I can’t afford that or not for most people in America. So they were going to pass over the medicine that they actually felt my mother needed, simply because it was not covered. That’s not reverse engineering, what do I need to make this woman feel better. And then just committing to a plan of action, it’s always playing with inside the rules of the game. And we need to literally completely exit the game I do not find any in between. So the role of my goal for the future is to accrue the resources needed to attract the talent and the team needed to build the hospital in the future. And I don’t have the answers for all of that. Now, it’s a huge audacious goal, it might be even a little bit ridiculous for a physical therapist to say that out loud. But I know that it needs to be built without any caring or any assumptions from this broken model. And only then like imagine what a hospital would look like and how it functions if we built it, reverse engineering it for actually helping people. Because all it is right now is built through the lens of the insurance model.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, absolutely. Those are great points. Just one more thing I wanted to add where I think the chiropractic profession and also the physical therapy, more of the alternative, which is an alternative if more people are seeing them for visits over the years, but they still call it alternative. So we have to do our licensing. And every two years, you need to have 40 CPUs. And they’re the same ones, Frank, you know, they’re the record-keeping documentation, medical errors, risk management, which is you need those. But the ones that I want to poke my eyes out with are the ones that teach you how to game not so much. I want to gamify teach you how to write out a proper HCA form so that you have a diagnosis that matches what you’re going to be doing with this person. And so you can build a service for the neck area, and then I can build another service for the back area. So you have to have all these pointers. And it’s in that way, it’s good because you want to make sure you’re doing an assessment and validating that there are limitations and, and problems with function. And you don’t have the ability to do these things. But sometimes it becomes like, like, I know that medical doctors aren’t doing this at their, at their conventions, because they hire their staff that does this. And I think it should be mandatory teaching for them as well, because of this main reason is that you need those outcome measures, right so that you get reimbursed for success. And the person who’s getting the the the minute, whatever 1314 $15 an hour job who’s deciding whether or not they should approve of your continuation of care, understands, hey, this person’s getting better. They’re showing defined outcomes. They’re saying that they’re moving forward, but they still have limitations on here. Do you see that that’s part of the problem, or do you see that that’s part of what you’re doing with your providers? Or I guess I guess the question is, how do you see that fits in with either fixing the broken system or correcting the broken system.   Frank Benedetto: I believe that the system is so broken that it needs to crumble, I don’t believe that there can be recovery outcome measures include air quotes, as, as dictated by insurance companies, I played that game back when I was still on, it’s not reflective of reality. There is not one provider who is actually filling that out, in line with what the client actually looks like. Because the insurance company has put markers to deny anyone care based on these things. So it’s not actually about the client. It is, it’s like a tripwire, it’s like a trick to who the company is placed in. To simply find ways to justify denying care is not actually about justifying the insurance companies are the closest thing we have right now to they’ll see algae here, the book that started this was the blueprint for revolution. And it was basically how non via small groups of extraordinarily passionate nonviolent communities were able to throw overthrow dictators and violent dictators, people killed people, in masses, the insurance companies, our modern medical systems, like big hospital systems, they are the closest thing to dictators that I believe that the modern world has, and you don’t negotiate with a dictator, you cannot reform a dictator, you overthrow a dictator. And that’s what we need to do to this current system from start to finish.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Now, it’s awesome. And I want to get into, into, okay, well, if I’m suffering, and I’m exhausted, and I’m burnt out, and this is only gonna make me more stressed, exhausted, and burnt out, because I can’t find the person who, who’s outside of the matrix, and took the blue pill, and, you know, so forth, when the other thing I wanted to add was, I did feel that way where like, if I can hop on one foot and tap my stomach and past press my head and the stars in the mood aligned, and you know, it didn’t rain that day, I could be anointed with two extra visits from that client, you know what I mean? It was just like, screw that like, and that’s the sad part is, is that the really good providers, and the empathic doctors that really give a shit and want people to get better, that you can’t play that game. Like, I’m not, I don’t want to have my handcuffs tied so that I can deliver what I need to deliver for you. Because insurance says that you do or you don’t need it, or you only need one more visit to get better. So now what are sort of like the solutions to that you’re doing to be able to improve the way that healthcare is delivered and get the better outcome? With that being said, Yeah, swinging towards more positivity.   Frank Benedetto: What do I imagine, I imagine a world where each provider has carved out a specific niche, either in the form of an identity that they serve, or a specific problem that they serve, just like you. When you dedicate yourself to either a population or a problem, you put yourself in a position to be world-class and to create what they actually need, not just like, slap a price tag on your price point on your skill sets, not just slap a price point on your skill sets. So then working backward. Part of innovation, this is the talk that you’d see me give to Craig, part of innovation is d monetization. So a lot of times when we hear of medical providers exiting the traditional system, that typically meant that they went to the super high cost, outlandish model, like you know, it’s going to cost $10,000 to have this private, you know, doctor on your team or some really crazy expensive thing. And some solutions will need to be expensive. But true innovation is always on the path of D monetization. D monetization is the art of maintaining or even improving results while making it continually cheaper. And the rest of the world operates like this. Tesla has created a cool electric car. That is getting progressively cheaper over time. The model why the model 330 40 $50,000, the working out another 120 or 30,000. But innovation always needs to end with D monetization, it doesn’t mean you need to be cheap, especially to start. You might need to launch a higher ticket to perfect what people need after helping 10,000 people. Chances are you can probably create a different version of that packaged version of it or have different options for different income levels. So that there is something that they can access no matter what income level they have.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s a great answer. I mean, you look at the example of like the big screen TV that was $5,000 that you can get for $600 now, but in this case, it’s delivering a more impactful service that’s more effective. So one of the things that I really love and I do this with my program is I have created a membership site with module systems where you talk about where you’re going to wherever, like one of the speakers in the group, which Frank, his name was Frank also. And he mentioned, if you say something once more than once, that’s got to be a standard operating procedure. But it’s the same thing. When I work with clients that have these unique susceptibilities, unique environmental things. I still want the foundational things for everyone. So 60 to 80% of the content that we deliver, can be applied to everyone, in terms of Hey, we got to have great good, you know, God, health absorption mindset. So I don’t want to say all the things that I want to say for that, what have you found just generically across all your specialties with people that work with you, especially for people that are exhausted and burnt out? And you were sort of there yourself? What are those core competencies that people need to be aware of that would be in those module systems in general, for those that are exhausted and burnt out that you found,   Frank Benedetto: I believe, the four pillars of health no matter what niche, no matter what problem, encompass some weighting of these four things. And depending on the niche, and depending on the problem, one of these might take in more weight than the other. So I believe that we have movement. As as the first pillar, we have nutrition, as the second pillar, we have behavior change, as the third pillar. And I noticed could be considered blended with third, but the fourth is really mental health or mindset. And the combination of those four things is really life-changing. And before anybody here thinks like, Oh, that’s not my scope of practice, it is in your scope of practice to advise someone and create a habit tracker on eating less processed food, it is in your scope of practice, to help somebody learn how to get seven hours to eight hours of sleep, it is in your practice to help them practice a gratitude journal, I’m not talking about pretending to be a counselor or mental health professional not advocating that you false advertise. But I am advocating that you look at the minimum viable services that people need in these four categories. And chances are, whoever it is that you’re serving, or if you’re a client right now listening, if you just get outside and walk more, if you exercise, do some yoga, weight chain, do some cardio, whatever it is that you might need. If you eat more natural foods if you just eat things actually from the ground. If you know, commit to a series of behaviors that help you get a full night’s sleep, minimize technology, and, and reinforce the behaviors around your nutrition and your movement. And you practice some sort of self-care for your mental health, chances are 80% of your issues will go away 20%, those are genetic, those are external, I’m not minimizing your situation, if that’s you, but there’s probably a large degree of your symptoms that can be managed by those other four pillars.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s awesome, it’s awesome information. And I would just echo the same sentiment, Frank in terms of, we’re always looking for that shiny object, right And to your point in terms of the broken system and tests that don’t necessarily help or that don’t give us more information. At the end of the day. Like if you’re looking at these shiny objects, and you’re not focusing on your mental health or you’re in a really poor relationship or you have a job that you hate or you don’t get off the couch or you don’t get nature that you’re no with, food that your grandmother would recognize as real food. You will gonna have health challenges for sure. So so you’re when you work with your clients? Do you help them set up those four pillars, even though each one of their unique selling points is different? Or how do you do how do you do?   Frank Benedetto: So what’s really cool is I take a lot of pride and we do not template anyone model. So I take people through a process that helps bring out the business and the treatment model that’s inside of them. So I don’t believe in the McDonald’s or Dunkin Donuts of healthcare, where we’re all just doing the same thing. But instead working through a process that allows people to bring their unique methods into the world in a way that’s monetizable sustainable and also gives a good life for the provider. Because we tend to be martyrs and self-sacrifice in our desire to help so we, we recommend people consider these things, we recommend a host of delivery mechanisms, meaning I don’t preach just digital, I don’t preach just brick and mortar. I love the mixed model, you’ll either one on one sessions on Zoom Plus course plus behavior tracker, or physical exercise programming, plus behavior change plus mindset, plus seminar in person quarterly, I believe in mixed model delivery mechanisms, and waiting where your particular niche needs you to be. So if you are working with ACL recovery, post-operative ACL recoveries, which has an extraordinarily high re-injury rate, because the physical therapy system is so broken, that’s going to be a heavy movement-based intervention. But we also know that their nutrition choices are correlated, we also know that the way they move is dictated by a fear-avoidance mindset. So if somebody hops on the field, and they’re petrified, they’re actually more likely to get injured than somebody confident. So the weighting might be really heavy on physical there. But we need to build in the rest of those. Otherwise, it’s really an insufficient model. Now, somebody’s working more towards obesity, nutrition, obviously, he’s going to be the heavier weight there. So everybody’s got to decide where they fit. And sometimes it comes in phases, we might need to go through a season where this is most important than a season where something else is most important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I love that. And it’s awesome. It’s amazing information, and you’re a real treasure to interview and to be able to provide this service and that anyway I can help out with your mission, and it lines, I am very excited about the one thing I want to tell you, Frank, that really lit me up with Craig’s presentation was when we were talking about marketing, and you were talking how mission always goes first. It’s not about you, it’s about them. So one of the things that I find with people that are exhausted and burnt out, and cortisol is just either going through the roof, or it’s flatlined, or it’s maladaptive. It really impacts that front part of the brain. And that’s the focus, concentration, motivation, drive reasoning, sequential planning, all those types of things. So when I asked potential clients, hey, if we had a magic wand here, and we were able to wave it, what would you do that you can’t do now? And they’re like, you know, what, I don’t even know, like, I haven’t even thought about that. I just know what I don’t want. It’s not what I want. I just know what I don’t want. So maybe we can speak to that on not so much the person, the health care provider that would be interested in your program, which is awesome. And I hope that people are listening to that would, you know, be able to follow up and research you and I’ll provide all the links to do that. But how can we adapt that to what you teach in that way, mission purpose, for an outcome strategy, or therapeutic modality for those that are exhausted and burnt out and say, Well, I can’t do that yet? Because I have to have this first. And I always tell about ready, fire, aim not ready Aim Fire. So you know, and I say, that’s part of the reason why Mrs. Jones, you’re not getting there is you’re looking in the rearview doing this, you know, like, you can’t do that you got to know where it is you want to go so that you can reverse engineer that. So maybe you could speak a little bit about how important that is for the exhausted person and what that really entails.   Frank Benedetto: Yeah, so I believe if you’re exhausted when I was exhausted, I was 30 years old, I created a what I call life design. And a life design is a super on-the-ground description of what you want life to look like in one year. And I specifically say, one year. because sometimes I think when we set goals, we only set the big ones. I want to lose 50 pounds, I want to be a millionaire, I want to run a marathon. And really what the best goal the Goldilocks goal, not a goal, it’s too big, not a goal. It’s too small, the right size goal is the most motivating one. So you have to get really clear on what you want your life to look like. And I’m talking daily and ground. Then once you have a clear picture of that it provides a roadmap of who you should enlist to help you achieve that. So you cannot know who to trust as your coach as your medical professional if you don’t know exactly where you want to go. So take the time to really think about where you want to be in one year. And then unrestricted from your insurance coverage. Start the search for who might be the best next person to enroll in your team now, the cool thing about the internet and the digitalization that’s happened because of COVID the only positive of this whole horrific scenario situation worldwide is that more providers than ever created a digital presence. Therefore, you the person who’s tired and burnt out, have lots of options. So you have Dr. Joel, right here in front of you, if maybe you need a cardiologist, and you don’t need to go to the crappy cardiologist on the block anymore. You can find the cardiologist matches with your philosophy or Joel’s philosophy or the philosophy of your team. And you can build a team around your specific needs. Because the barriers have been broken down, you can access basically anyone.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I found that to be so I had already made the pivot. Ust Excel, like I, would do consulates and like, well, there’s no one in my area. And like, well, I’m in everyone’s area, you just got to get at the end of this. And it became more acceptive on one thing I want to echo for you is I recently hired a coach, I was a personal trainer, I have like a certified strength and conditioning, you know, the top-notch background you know, that’s what you need. If you want to be the strength and conditioning coach for the New York Jets or whatever, right? You need to have your CSCs. But you have to have an exercise physiology degree to do that. But I still hired a coach to help me bring my body fat down again, because I don’t have all the answers to number one, and number two, my sphere of excellence is helping other people. And I don’t want to expand my bands with too much that led to my own burnout to begin with. But the whole point of Trank is one of the big in our enrollment call was one of the main differences that made a difference already before I even started the program where I knew it was going to be helpful. And it was just the words like Like if I’m at 20% body fat, I want to get down to 10% body fat. I got to eat like someone who has 10% body fat. I can’t eat like someone that has 20% as like holy shit, like yeah, like I’m eating like someone that has 20% body fat, as I got it. And that was kind of like what you’re saying is, if you want to get somewhere in a year, you need to help you work with someone that has that frequency. And then you can like I always say like, you know, the the the glass that bubbly, knows that opera singer who belches out a tone at the same pitch as the glass causes that glass to break. That’s coherence. Right? So you want to get coherence with a coach that has the frequency that you want. So you can align your frequency to that pitch and create a bigger amplitude. Does that make sense?   Frank Benedetto: Yeah, no, absolutely. It’s all about finding the team that matches your personal viewpoints and your belief patterns. That’s really really important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So So question I have in terms of your big hairy doshas. Adarsha. So audacious. the goal is, so I like the idea of insurance companies, de-monetizing and increasing their results and decreasing their costs, but not actually necessarily decreasing their profits. And I always wondered why, like, can they not just switch their model and, and give discounts to people that be proactive, and pass those savings on to them. But at the same time, they can also save a lot of money on unnecessary procedures that you know, a penny earned as a penny saved. Is that part of your mission statement as well to kind of get into the way topple the system, and then repurpose the way that third parties do pay for services?   Frank Benedetto: Do you know that? Do you know how much profit UnitedHealthcare had in the queue to have in 2020? No, I have no idea. Take a guess.   Dr. Joel Rosen: United Healthcare in 2008 with COVID going on.   Frank Benedetto: I would say $100,000,006.7 billion. Okay. All right. $6.7 billion from one health insurance company in one quarter. The Quarter before that was 3.4 billion. They are not interested in reducing their profits. stealing a line from the matrix. What do all men with power want? More power? More power?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right?   Frank Benedetto: Yeah, we do not negotiate with dictators. They are not interested in helping you. God, they think they’re too big to fail. And just like the banks, just like, lots of other examples from history, they, it’s inevitable that they will. We just need 1000s of healthcare professionals to exit the system and make it unstable. We need 10s of 1000s, hundreds of 1000s millions of patients to exit the system and choose to go independent. The only way that can happen is if we all D monetize to a degree so that regular people can afford health care. That’s a better quality outside of the current health insurance system. Only when their profits start to shrink, will they change? And I don’t trust that they will change for the better even in that circumstance, I hope that they fall.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, you have to be realistic about it, I tend to be the rose-colored glasses guy, you know. But as far as I always say, like this, what happens at the cellular level happens at the 40,000 views, foot level, right? And, you know, meaning like it, your cells need to communicate, they need to think outside the box, they need to be optimized. And that needs to happen at the 40,000 views, foot level of the way healthcare is being delivered. One of the object one of the main objections I would imagine you have is the brainwashing of the sick person who is unlimited income, who, who feels that if it’s paid for by my insurance, that’s what I got to do. And they may not invest in their health, because that’s, you know, I tell people like did your insurance pay for your car? Did it pay for your, you know, your education? Did it pay for you? No, no. So but you found it valuable to do that. But how do you overcome that, like the conditioning of this is what insurance pays for. So I do this, and I don’t do that.   Frank Benedetto: In some circumstances, that’s going to remain true for quite some time until we d monetize to new levels, which takes time. In other circumstances, then it’s really awesome as marketers of our health, new innovative healthcare businesses, to help them understand the cost equivalent. So the average person has a $2,000 deductible, the average person has a $50 copay. If you come to let’s just say use physical therapy games example, if you come to a physical therapist, and you see them twice a week for 10 weeks, and you add up the deductible and the CO pays. Compare that to a $250 a month membership. We’re not even in the ballpark. We are significantly demonetized from that already. And it’s at it breaks the time for money continuum for the provider, which allows them more free time to invest in discovering what is the best possible solution for my audience. positive momentum, as they continue to figure out the best possible solution, they can have the opportunity to demonetize to a new level. That’s the answer for our lower-income populations.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Yeah. And it takes time and education and a lot of elbow grease behind it as well. But I love the mission. And I think it’s awesome that, that you’re doing this. As far as you know, I always ask my clients like you to have their own health challenges. And I say like, okay, you’re the sage-like Frank, now, what would you have told the younger, I always call it the bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Frank, that would have helped you progress your health a lot quicker, faster, further that you didn’t know then that you know now.   Frank Benedetto: Good question. Um, when I first started to get healthy, and when I turned 30, I blindly trusted the system. And I was put on all sorts of medications, I was put on all sorts of medications. It was only when I took things into my own hands, still trusting professionals, but no longer just going to who was near me, who would accept my insurance that I actually began to heal. So, my recommendation to me if it was going back was to find more natural interventions, and be your own advocate because you can no longer just blindly trust the way our parents and our grandparents did in the very different generation of doctors that existed 20 3050 years ago.   Dr. Joel Rosen: yeah, that’s wise and making that even more debilitating is the perfect storm of environmental triggers that we never had. Then, you know, EMFs, pesticides, chemicals, all these things like social media. And not even that I mean, the way that the, you know, that experiment where you kind of only present certain news to people that click in certain ways, it just creates much more chaos. If you do follow that same pattern that our parents did, it’s even worse. It’s even more gloom and doom. So, Frank, I listen, I could talk to you forever. I want to know, like, how do people get in contact with you, especially if they’re a provider, and they’re looking to make a difference, but also deliver better quality service and have it be a win-win for everyone?   Frank Benedetto: Yeah, if you’re a health care provider, you’re looking to reimagine and repackage your skillset. I put out an insane amount of free information. On my personal Instagram account, Frank underscore Benedito, Frank underscore Benedetto. And we also host a weekly live training inside of our free Facebook group, which is called private practice 2.0, a group for disruptive healthcare entrepreneurs. And Joel, I’ll send you that link, and you can include it in the bio, that’d be cool. And anybody here just reaches out to say hello, always down to have a good conversation.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. And then as far as On the flip side, on the consumer point of view, where they’re exhausted and burnt out, do you have a library of different niche professionals that have gone through your program that potentially people can, aside from adrenal fatigue, of course, that they can look for, in terms of certain health challenges that they have?   Frank Benedetto: Yeah, absolutely. We do. We actually do have a directory, I would love to get you on the directory and so people can find you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: For that. Oh, we got to talk. We got to talk again. I don’t think our conversation ends here for sure.   Frank Benedetto: Yeah. But if you’re a consumer happy to try to help match you with a provider that you’re that might be building something for you. Awesome.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, listen, I can see why you’re doing so well. And you have a lot of energy and I’m really happy that you’ve taken this direction in your life and you’ve spent the time to share with me, and I wish you future success in all your endeavors that you do in the future. Thank you so much, so appreciate you having me say thanks, Frank. To find out more about Frank, and the honey badger project, click here The post Adrenal Fatigue and The Broken Insurance Model appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m joined with a friend, a colleague, even a mentor, and someone I always look forward to talking to. This is actually our third conversation for our podcast. Dr. Kelly Halderman. She’s a researcher, she’s an author, she’s a clinician, she’s a nutraceutical. Formulator she’s the Dean of Students, I don’t know how she has all the time to do all this. She’s also a mom, and a business person, and everything else in between. So, Dr. Kelly, welcome to the show. Once again,   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Thank you, Dr. Jill, awesome to be here for number 330   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, exactly. And you know, I’m excited about the topic because you sort of whispered in my ear, the idea of empathy and how that relates to people that are exhausted and burnt out. And this is a switch of a case from what we’ve talked about with detox 2.5 or, and also talking about utilizing fat and bile movement and all of the above. So why don’t you start with why how you got started or what triggered you to put this on your radar for empathy and how it relates to health,   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Sir, so honestly, I am really not what I would consider a touchy-feely empathic person at all, I feel like I, you know, mothering didn’t come easy to me, relationships don’t really come easy to me. And I’ve always had to work really hard to be like what I’ve always thought of, as is empathic, you know, and some people are really blessed, and they’re just so empathically wonderful, and they can really be loving, nurturing, caring people, and I just think that’s amazing. But we’re not all gifted at everything. So I’ll start by saying, like, this is not my Avenue. This is not something that I would say, Oh, you know, I’m going to read books on empathic people. You know, we’ve all heard about this empathy is part of life and having empathy for people and that’s something that I had, but it wasn’t until I met a brilliant practitioner who’s been helping me with some neural retraining and it had to do with my adrenal fatigue and my chronic fatigue and some of the symptoms that I literally have been struggling with for decades right and she said to me, should we got to know each other as a, you know, practitioner and kind of as an as a friend as well. She said to me about a month ago, maybe a little bit more. Kelly, I think that you’re an empath, and I thought, what like I am I’m not an empath. Like I like everything I just said right. It’s very, she goes, I think you need to read the work of Dr. Judith Orlov, f o. r. l. o FF, MD. So she is a psychiatrist, who writes about empaths and things and so Okay, all right, I’m open to it. Right. Whenever we’ll fix the fatigue, right? Like you know, I mean, I’m there I’m doing really well my house great, but I’m like, okay, so I started reading a doctor, Dr. Judas work. And lo and behold, she has this huge connection between the symptoms, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, anxiety, depression, with being an empath. And so there’s a questionnaire and about being an empath. And so, um, you know, I really suggest your listeners that, that it’s something that you can, you can actually do it for free, looking her up, but you know, going through the questionnaire, doctors will I think that’s maybe where we can kind of start is kind of looking at like, what do you think of as an empath, because I didn’t think I was at all and then I took this questionnaire and I’m like, Oh, my gosh, I am and how it plays into health. And I want to talk to you, doctor, so I’m gonna turn the mic around because this is exactly what I think of as genetic susceptibility. You know, when we have those genetic tests, and they’re completely different, you know, let’s say like two people have Lyme disease, and one’s genetics are just a mess, and the others are pretty darn good. So who is going to display the symptoms? Who’s gonna it’s the person whose genetics have not been optimized, right. This is the same thing with an empath who has not learned to optimize themselves because being an empath is absolutely amazing. We have the abilities and ability to tune in, but it can take you down. I mean, literally, it can take you down and I will tell a quick story is that when I was rounding in hospitals with my white coat on going into hospital rooms, I would literally walk out feeling the feelings of people who are sick. And I was like, to my colleagues, like does anybody else feel like they’ve been completely wiped out by like, the stress the trauma that I mean when I was working in the ICU or ever not being able to like walk into some of these rooms because it would just take me down. And that was just my normal. So I’m gonna, I’m just gonna kind of go into some of these questions and we’re gonna we’ll have a dialogue about it. So the questionnaire, which again, can be found on your website is, are you overly sensitive, shy, or introverted? So there are 20 questions, right? And you don’t have to answer yes to all of them. But if you score somewhere between 15 and 11, you definitely are an empath. You score less than that you have empathic things, but across the board, one of the most important things that I’ve learned is that even you know, again, with this questionnaire is that empathic women, it’s really important because we gravitate toward being the caregiver, being actually you know, more of a codependent that we burn out, we burn out so again, protecting ourselves so again, like overly shy or introverted, yes, I’ve been introverted and I felt bad about that. But that’s just part of who you know who I am. Do overwhelm or cry easily. Do arguments or yelling make you ill do not feel like you fit in? Are you overstimulated? Now? Here’s kind of the interesting physiology, we’re going to go. Are you overstimulated by noise smells are one of the questions is nonstop, talkers, chemical jokes, chemical sensitivity. So it’s funny, and I’m going to ask you this, is that we see chemical sensitivity, right? In our practices, and everybody is, so physiologically, and so as I when we talked about phase 2.5, I’m like, well, let’s get the bile flowing. Let’s get that point. But in your practice, do you see a correlation between women who are the caregivers who are, you know, been put themselves second? And then you see these symptoms? And then you’re, you’re helping to change their physiology. But there are still having symptoms? Do you see that in your practice?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, there’s so many, so many other areas that have to be considered as well, like, just, I think the main point, Kelly is, is that if you’re an empath, then you have a speaker system that’s amplified, right. And so or you have receptors that are amplified. And because in today’s day and age, there are so many triggers or stimuli that would amplify that would just at least hit the receptors, let alone if they’re that much more amplified. So the answer is yes. But with the idea that there are so many different variables and stimuli to have to process daily. And when you combine that with having the propensity to be much more impacted by that, and it’s amplified, then that creates the difficulty of moving the needle because you’re doing all these great supplements, you’re doing testing, you’re understanding your genetics, but you’re missing the glue, that could make the difference between actually feeling a lot better. And that’s what you can talk about now. So as far as may be going into the questionnaire, like, you have the questionnaire, and again, I’ll post for the listeners on my website, the name and the link to be able to get to that, but so, so Okay, so that you were working with a colleague who kind of put it on your radar, and you were like, no way, but then you delve more into it and saw that there’s this questionnaire, and you did exemplify the characteristics of being an empath. So then what like, what what was your next what happened, then?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Sure. So then, so then, I started to think about my life, and I started to think about some of the things that am past due to suppress all the energy coming at them, right. And so for some people, it’s food, it’s shopping, sex, you know, any sort of substances because that will turn off that that emotional that we feel and I think to myself, how many people have problems losing weight? Well, it could be because they’re putting that on and Judith Orlov will say, this doctor or little sick, they put it on as padding, to try and like protect themselves. And I’m like, you’re never going to be able to get rid of you know, that weight. Or let’s say you’re and this actually happens with a lot of empathic males with addiction is that they’ve been trained because of our society to suppress that that sensitive side, oh, you can’t be sensitive, you know, man up. So then what they do is that they, they, they turn to substances so that Dr. Judith talks about how many people in her practice are empaths that are actually addicted to substances because they’re, they can’t, they can’t manage like they can’t manage. I will be just completely honest with you. And I told you this job we were talking about this. I cannot go to a social event without having a couple of drinks because It’s completely overwhelming to me. So I have learned that in and now that I’m aware of this, I’m like, wow, I need to I can’t use alcohol to block myself, I need to use positive practices, which I’ve implemented, which have helped me be a better mom, a better clinician, a better everything, we’ll get into those. But really, it’s just looking at how we cope. And why we cope. Why are we doing some of these things that we’re doing? My adrenals were flatlined. I mean, like, we’re flatline. And I feel like because I never was taught the strategies to, to optimize myself again. And I think that probably relates to so many of your listeners, like, they’re burnt out, they’re totally burnt out. But like, let’s say, let’s say you live with an energy vampire. Let’s say you live in a stressful situation because that’s one of the questionnaires does arguments or do you know, conflict? Does that drain you, because that just keeps happening to me in my life is that if I don’t, if I don’t protect my energy, if I don’t protect and be around in an environment, or just simply sit down and think about what situations make your adrenal fatigue worse, what situations you know, instead of like, what supplement Am I you know, what, what did I eat? What are you? Literally, are you around someone who is draining your, your, your physical energy is, is that somewhat, you know, I know, I don’t really like that term energy vampire, but we all know one? And some of us are super sensitive than some other people are not sensitive at all. And that’s fine. Like, I know, a billion people who are not sensitive whatsoever. So again, like take an inventory of like, how you feel. So that’s where it started. For me, Joel’s like, okay, in my life, like, where was I? When was this client fatigue hitting me like, boom? Well, it was actually after some emotional conflict, you know, emotional conflict, I felt like I was just taking it on. And of course, like, I was just tired and stuff, and I actually have a son, my middle son is actually what I’ve identified as an empath. He takes on the energy of anybody who’s around him. And so it’s like, it’s very important for me then as a mother, to make sure like, he’s just, you know, you think like, Why are you so upset or anything? Well, then if you dig into it, you know, so again, I’m practicing this or just even having a conversation or anything with your children, or better to identify that, you know, is really important.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, and what I think about one of them we were we first met was such a fortuitous seminar, I had no anticipation of having lifelong friends and lessons from that particular seminar. But remember, Patrick Porter was there, and with the brain tap, which we both love, and one of the things that stuck with me with what he said, was, if you look at the Vietnam vets or even just any PTSD soldier that’s been overseas, and then they come back to life, that’s like a drop in the bucket to how frenetic the life was in a war and the constant stress. And so what they would do is because their body in, in a, in a, in a weird way, becomes, I want so much say addicted, but tolerant to those brain chemicals that are in a fight or flight chemicals. And there’s such a disparity between how much they were pumping for so long, and how the cells and the receptors and the physiology mold to that too now when they’re in normal life, they can’t cope with such a big drastic change. And then, unfortunately, so sadly, there are suicides and then there’s recipes, rates of increasing and independency and drugs. And when you’re telling me about the just when you’re talking about the potential to be an empath, where that’s where these coping mechanisms that are healthy, when you have so many stimuli, that you’re processing that is amplified, that are multi-focused, and you want to you have a discrepancy between that and how that physiologically is impacting your body. You need to fill in that gap with ruinous behaviors potentially and that could be addictive behaviors, you know, pornography, that can be sharp, anything that you put, you know a Holic to write like, is probably one of those things that is a good sign that you have physiology logical and balance between how much you’ve processed in the past and having to titrate down like any person coming off of a drug needs to do and it’s going to be painful it to a certain extent, but it starts with awareness for sure. Because who knows, who even thinks about this term, let alone that it’s them, and then the domino effect that it has. And ultimately, we’re talking about exhausted and burnt-out individuals that don’t handle stress. Well, I’m the same way if I’m an introvert, I go to a party and I would rather just sort of be, you know, off to the side and not talking to anyone and they’re like, Okay, it’s time to go and it’s only been an hour, you know, and stuff like that. So, so Okay, so then from there, so you raise the awareness. As far as what makes someone more likely Kelly is their genetic susceptibilities? What’s that? Why would someone be an introvert? Well, I mean, not an introvert a, an empath.   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Yeah. So what makes it worse is I number one, not being aware of it. And what we just talked about using all these extraneous things to try and blunt, it actually backfires. And you end up sick, the body doesn’t lie, the body keeps score, right. So I mean, that’s kind of number one. Number two is blood sugar imbalances. And this is from the work of Dr. Judith Orloff. These are this is studies. I mean, so when I’m rattling these offices, and just my observation, so blood sugar imbalances, how important it is, in how sensitive empaths are to any sort of undulation in blood sugar, and you know, you’ve done amazing education and work on this Dr. Joel, listen to different podcasts for all that information, and then sleep. So if you’re not, if you’re not taking care of your sleep, you’re more susceptible. If you have poor time management, if you know you’re all over the place because as empaths we tend to like to, we tend to gravitate toward multitasking, but actually do better when things are just methodical like what a one by one, I know that when, you know, when I was racing around, in as a medical doctor in the emergency room, I’m like, Oh my gosh, you know, I like one thing at a time. So that really wasn’t where I fit in the best nature. If you’re not getting out in nature if you’re not grounding yourself, you know if you’re, if you’re not taking the time to just get off your phone. You know, like, I’m kind of preaching to myself at this point. That’s really, really important. A setting clear boundaries with people, which is very uncomfortable for me, I’d rather be like, Yes, I can do everything. I’m learning to practice. If you suck at setting, setting boundaries with people practice, just practice, you’re worth it, you’re worth just setting some boundaries, and saying no, no, is a complete sentence. You don’t have to, you don’t have to say anything more, you just say no, you know, like, I think these are important things for, for, especially for adrenal burnout, right? I mean, we’re, we’re just running on empty, and then breathing, meditation, little kind of, you know, breathing exercises is important. What I thought is really interesting was that empaths can actually wash off some of that burden, that emotional burden by getting into the water. I am a bath person, like, I am like, get me out, I need to call them like, bath me or give me an ocean. How many of us crave that. And that can because we’re empaths or, you know, again, it’s not like I ever had an impact, or I’m not, you know, it’s not black and white. It’s like, I think we should all just kind of learn these skills, but and then drinking water. So those are all the things that can really take you down and make you susceptible or bring you back like nature and breathing and all these things which are important for everyone. And specifically, Judith Orlov says lavender oil on the third eye. I’m just I’m a fan of lavender oil. I think it’s quite medicinal. So those are kind of some of the strategies.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, those are great. Just, you know, positive practice blood sugar and balance. And I think what you’re saying is when it’s not staying stable, you’re much more likely to have those highs and those lows and have less discipline for boundaries and so forth. I would also elaborate on the fact that when a circadian rhythm is off, you’re going to be more susceptible to the tendencies of being empathic, which also falls into sleep. disorganized is huge. I think that going about your business in an organized way and having a to-do list and, you know, I was listening to Dr. Bob Miller’s lecture the other day and when he looks at you can talk about the genetic predisposition with the gene snip there. He says that a lot of people have those potentials, he’ll tell them that, hey, listen, this is what you have you have more of a potential to be an empath and, and not get into an hour conversation like we are. But he’ll tell them like, perhaps people sense this in you and potentially take advantage of you or lean on you. And you’re you have to be aware that you have this potential. And it’s okay to say no because ultimately, it’s the doctor’s orders, it’s a prescription for just like you would take something to help with high blood pressure or low blood pressure, saying no, and knowing your boundaries are really, really key for sure. I think that’s, that’s important. Knowing, knowing like, and that’s a problem to Kelly when you have all of this chaos going on, it will jumble up that front part of the brain. And that’s where you don’t have that sequential planning. step one, step two, step three, and then you don’t have even the motivation or the goals, or what you want to accomplish in life, because I’ll ask people like, hey, like, if we were to fix this, and you were to be feeling better, what would you do? Like, what’s your bucket list of things you’d want to do? And they’re like, I don’t even know. And like, well, that’s unacceptable. Like, no, I’m not mad at you. But it’s part of your, your therapy, like when functional neurology, what they can’t do is part of the treatment protocol, right? Like, if you can’t do balance, you have to work on your balance. If you can’t follow like pursuits or stockades, you got to follow the pursuits or case, if you can organize your brain and sequential steps, you got to do that. So I would even put there as well, that that’s a perfect storm of it just becomes a vicious cycle, right? Because if you have all these things happening, that is you’re not aware of, and that are being impacted by the first domino effect. And then those next dominoes, knockdown. Those next dominoes knocked down the first domino, and then it becomes this domino effect. Would you agree to that?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: I would totally agree. Totally. Yeah. And I love that what Dr. Bob said about, you know, the susceptibility and Joel and I both share heterozygosity in the O XTR. And it actually surprised me because I’ve met a sexual person. And you see, it’s almost like some of the Doctor Orlik says, some empaths they look like they have a sign on their, their head that says, tell me everything, like, just tell me, like I barely knew john I was like, just as a great aura, just as great, you know, natural like you. So for him not to be you know, homozygous, you know, empathy, again, genetic susceptibility it’s not I’m, you know, I would expect that I would be more of a to and then I’ve seen people with this genetic snip where they’re there, they’re two they have both of the snips on, but yet they’re icy, like, they’re doubly icy. So, uh, you noticed it is important to again, look at our genetics and just see your predispositions. But again, if you’re someone who people feel like they meet you on the street corner, and they can tell you your life story, you might be you just might be they might feel that like you’re open and that you’re receptive. But again, we just have to learn some practices to help her will bat in directed in a good way.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, so just to pick up from where you were letting off. So the ALEKS t r is a gene snip that if it’s mutated, it’s one parent that’s called heterozygous. And that’s gonna have more of a potential to amplify the signals that are coming in. And but you know, what it makes me think about Kelly is, you know, when we think about the kinetics of genes, meaning how fast or slow those genes work, and what makes it so difficult is some gene snips are upregulated, and some are downregulated, which now throws a lot of loops into Okay, is this working too fast? Or is this working too slow? But we usually say, well, it’s not as bad because it’s a one, only one parent gave it to you. And really, it’s worse when it’s a two, I think we can use the ALEKS tr personally as a testament that it does, like being a little pregnant and being a lot pregnant as being pregnant, right? Whether you’re pregnant or a lot of pregnant, you’re pregnant. So if you have ones in other locations, don’t necessarily think that it’s bad it’s not as bad a thing it can really express even if it’s not a to, and then most importantly, like we were talking about before we started this It’s the environmental gene snips that make even meaning a gene snip is when the example I always use Kelly is just the credit card processing machine, the old style ones, you put the card in, you swipe it out, and now you have a copy. And I just would come up with if you have one gene snip, it’s like for every 10 swipes, eight swipes are good, you know, and two are not good. So now you don’t have a sale in your store because you didn’t write. But if you have two snips, it’s maybe four or five. And that’s not a great example in terms of that’s exactly how it works. But it does show you that well now for every 10 swipes, if I have two copies, only the card goes in sideways, it doesn’t get read properly. And now I only have four or five. But the whole point is is that the perfect storm is not only that but the door’s locked and people can’t get in, people forgot their credit card in the first place. And the analogy for that would be the epigenetic overlapping variables that you work in a job where you’re most people have employment in the service-related industry and the health-related industry. I remember literally telling myself when I came home, at the end of the day having a shower and washing it off, I need to wash it off, right? Because it’s too overstimulating for me. So So epigenetic, perfect storms are not only having the potentials genetically, even if it’s a one. And even if it’s a zero, and no parents had it because of the environment from all the stimuli, your jobs, your post-traumatic stressors. So many things. So what have you found in terms of what are some of the major epigenetic overlapping perfect storms?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Oh, well, I’m definitely, I think, kind of to go back one, and then I’ll come back to the question is that we must look at our genetic susceptibilities. It is absolutely imperative to get your body physiologically running the best it can. And I think that’s why I’ve had so much success with my health, and overall, just gaining you know so much is that I optimize my metabolism, I optimize my detox, I optimize all that. And then it was like, and here’s what’s leftover, you know, and I’m constantly doing that sound like a one and done, right. I know, my genetic susceptibilities. I know, and that was just priceless. Joel has helped me optimize my genetics as well. So you know, that’s a piece, right? But I’m not saying like, jump over all that, you know, don’t detox yourself. And, you know, don’t pay attention to your MTHFR. Like, I’m not saying that at all, but I’m saying like, do that. And at the same time, like implement this in implement in, you know, the epigenetic factors, which play a role in everything that you know, there’s just, it’s just foundational. So again, we talked about sleep optimization. We talked about, we actually didn’t talk about but exercise movement of the body, I mean, dopamine stimulation really getting, you know, your body movement going can really help protect you. Whether you’re an empath or not, right. So these are just, they’re kind of, they play over over everyone and everything. So, and we talked about, you know, boundary setting, meditation, quiet time, I always have felt really guilty about needing quiet time and really feel guilty about coming home at the end of the day, seeing so many patients, and just feeling it all and going like wow, this is a lot when there are people that’s not typical, right. And that’s, that’s not but I think, again, I think we’re speaking to a group here with Adrenal Fatigue is gonna be like, yes, like I totally get that so there’s an exercise where if you feel the negative energy you just say Return to Sender that’s been really actually very helpful, very easy to do. But just like I’ve started to feel this like out of you know, I’ve just returned to sender take that energy back. There’s a practice of the Golden shield bubble exercise that sounds a little hokey, but really you know, just set your intention to you know, keep your positive energy and you know, not take on you can listen you can be there for you know people but like not take it on personally that’s kind of like that the difference. Again, I think a beach diet we talked about blood sugar, really really making sure that you’re optimizing that and again, Joe you’re like the go-to doctor I, you know if I have anything issues like with that or questions with that, but that’s kind of like in a nutshell, what I’m to answer your question about the epigenetics.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s great. So, I’m just gonna kind of paraphrase what you said as well, and put my spin on that. So I agree with you. I think that everyone should have a function genomic assessment, just to get an idea what your major hiccups are challenges could be raw, like from the raw data alone, not from epigenetic stuff, just like, hey, there’s bipolar runs in the family, or auto immunities on the family or cardiovascular challenges run in the family, awkward depression, I want to know that. But you’re right. Like, I think foundationally I always tell people less is more like if we can pay your expenses if we can help with good absorption of nutrients and good utilization of nutrients, and we can reduce inflammation and we can reset your circadian rhythm. And we can put good mine You know, thoughts in your body and work that front part of the brain and plan and organize, then you’re going to have a lot of residual income that you wouldn’t necessarily have had. And you will then be that much more disciplined about decisions. And I think, I don’t know what the research is on this. But you probably know as well as there is research that the more fatigued you are, the less brainpower you have for a disciplinary procedure, no disciplinary thoughts. And and and so that’s the same thing. Like the more you pay your foundational bills, in terms of blood sugar, balance, good, healthy nutrients, absorbing them. You know, one of the big ones is they show multitasking and is actually less productive. Because if you can do one thing and cross it off your list, and then do the next thing and cross it off your list, you’re spreading yourself way too thin, and your bandwidth is being exceeded. And you are not addressing the foundational components, which means that there’s a demand and supply problem in your body. You don’t have that extra reserve to be to help your propensity to be an empath for sure. So I just was would want to echo that with you for sure as well. And then as far as you said, with the hygiene like the blood sugar hygiene, the sleep hygiene, the activity that’s the other thing I was gonna mention epigenetically is we look at all the excited Tori neural transmitters, right so glutamate histamines, adrenaline’s, you know, dopamine, all of these excited Tori neural transmitters are, are typically going to be based on all of those demand and supply problems being exceeded, are going to be released at a higher amount to make up for the lack of energy. So now you’re just overstimulated, and it’s playing into your propensity to be an empath maybe talked a little bit about that, Kelly in terms of how those excited Tori neural transmitters kind of overlap with all of this, or what you see with your own personal health, and how stress and adrenaline can really muck up the waters and all of this, right?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Absolutely. So if you’re, if you’re not optimized, if you don’t really know, or you’re, maybe you do know, but you’re just not optimizing your genetics, let’s just take, for example, the glutamates. Right, a lot of the people that I see, who have optimized all those hygiene factors, right, like all that, and they’re really doing well is that they’re not getting, they’re not getting at that they’re not getting at the crux of that. So it really, it’s, it’s hard for them to then if they’re not optimizing the glutamates that they’re still running on, you know, they’re not often I would say we’re not optimizing like the empathic part of them. So their energy still likes going out to all people, their boundaries, you know, they’re like the Yes, mom, and they’re doing a million different things. That then actually, you know, they’re living on those glutamates. So they’re like, they need those glutamates. But you’re just burning your candle at both ends, right? So when I try and use glutamine scavenger for professional help products are really, they’ve kind of the crash because they were using that as fuel. So, I mean, I think that’s people using caffeine and sugar and things. It’s like if you don’t get that you feel horrible. Now, let’s try it. Let’s, let’s turn around. Let’s say you learn to optimize those all those high, those empathic, hygienic factors. I like that, you know, you’re better at managing all the above. Maybe then you don’t need to be relying on the glutamate to stay awake, stay focused, and it’s really pathologically and you don’t have to rely on the caffeine to stay awake and stay focused and, and the sugar. It’s just now that your body is more it’s not being robbed of you know all of that. And that’s where it’s like, I really want to emphasize it’s like, there’s got to be people out there listening to this who lived there like I do my best on sleep, I do my best on a diet, I exercise, I do that, but I come home and a crash. Here’s what I want to say to you. How about the relationship hygiene, but we just check that out, make sure that’s not something because it’s so frustrating because I’m still there with you. It’s like, I’m doing everything right. You know, and I’m making gains as you know, not knowing about my impact, I made tons of gains, but, but really having this piece and recognizing that and then not again, as you said about the exciting Tory neurotransmitters and things. I was just, I mean, I had eye twitches. But I mean, that’s what I had to rely upon, you know, is that but now I’ve just done a recent new Dutch test and oh test the whole shebang. And I’m doing much better biochemically. And you can’t sustain people you can’t sustain on using all those notes, you’re going to crash even more.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah, that’s a great point. And that kind of talks about the disparity between all the stimuli that your body’s been used to, to processing and then all of a sudden you have this drastic fall off, and you don’t know what to do with it. And then when we say glutamate like people think about MSG, but anything that’s ultimately artificial, like I was I’m not actually I haven’t had any alcohol for probably a couple months now. But I find that when I was doing those hard, seltzers, right, because they’re all filled with glutamate, artificial sweeteners, it’s kind of a double whammy, you have a depressing feeling. But yes, you’re also anxious as well. So so anything artificial, and there is also showing if you’re not getting good organic foods, those glyphosates can really impact your glutamate lowering bacteria, and create even more problems. And that’s why you love those foods, right? Because they’re meant to be addictive and packaged, and so forth. So I love the term empathic hygiene, or empathic, hygenic factors, that’s, that’s a term that you can, you can just kind of run with, um, there’s something else I was gonna say in there as well with, with the fact that, yes, so. So one of the tools that I would recommend someone to do is, for example, like when someone gets this is what drives me crazy when someone gets put on, say, a thyroid med. And that’s helpful, don’t get me wrong, it could be helpful as a quick stopgap, right to be able to get upstream and work on what’s really impacting the body, address that and then take that away. Unfortunately, that’s not the mo is See you later. And we’ll fill this for the rest of your life. Right? But the problem is, as that person from a functional medicine perspective, gets better, and the reasons why they had to be on it, put on it in the first place, improve, they haven’t commencer and their dosing strategy with their improvements, and now they feel over ramped up. And I’m not licensed as a natural provider to take them off things, but I say to them, hey, you need to talk to your doctor and you need to be aware like if I was your brother, you need to tell them like hey, I’m feeling better now. I don’t need this. But I think the same thing happens with commence aerating our stress load, meaning like if you have so many variables that you have to process and you’re doing these strategies, you’re stabilizing your blood sugar, you’re getting a good circadian rhythm, you’re saying no, you’re more organized, you really are your breathing is key like that breathing, slowing down the breathing, but also all of that will work very effectively to lower the number of stimuli that you have to process where you feel the need to make up for it with ruinous behaviors. Number one and then the other thing I would say is a mental activity, right? Doing something creative, doing something physical that’s going to use up a lot of those excitatory neurotransmitters to and when we put COVID and the news and the media and restrictions and the not moving. It breeds a perfect storm of really making this empathic thing, a major hurdle with people that are exhausted and burnt out.   Dr. Kelly Halderman: 100% preach that is as spot-on is totally spot on. I knew this conversation would be so enlightening for me. I’m like, guess what, I’m like you’re gonna end up teaching me more.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, I mean, I was worried cuz I was I wasn’t I didn’t listen to the entire book. But you know, I have a background in psychology and unfortunately with my own health challenges and quirks for sure, so Okay, so as far as what you do, Kelly in terms of how do you now integrate this information into your nutraceutical planning or your one on one coaching? Or just what you do with you, with what you’re involved with? How do you incorporate this now for what you do?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Sure. So the first step, again, is, I believe is doing the assessment. So do this assessment, see where you fall? And then the second step is forgiveness or grace for yourself, just you are, who you are. And a lot of these things that people think are weird, like, why can’t you be in a crowd? Why does the crowd drain you? Why can’t you be you know, around people who are negative and just not care? You know, I mean, like, sorry, that’s just not you. That’s not me. That’s not us. So just forgive it and just who you are, own who you are, you’re beautiful, you’re wonderful. You know, like some of the things where I started by saying, like, I wasn’t there, it wasn’t natural for me to be a mother because I feel like it tastes a lot of energy to be a mother in the first place, and then to take on all the energy of other people. But so again, I recognize that and so now, I’m, I’m having people take assessments, especially the people who I’m like, wow, you have really done everything physiologically for your but I don’t ever skip over emotional health. I’ll tie that right now. But I’m just thinking of these people who it’s like, they’ve done everything, but guess what, they’re married to a narcissist. They come home every night. And that narcissist will take them down energetically, and they’re frustrated cuz they’re like, what I can’t lose weight. I’m like, of course, you can’t lose weight, you’re trying to protect yourself from these people. Or maybe your best friend is energy-draining anyway. So that’s what I’ll do is I’ll just a recognition right? And then I’ll walk then they’ll have this like, oh, a sigh of relief, like okay, now what do I do? Alright, so now we’re going to do so what I have done is I started to really respect these empathic fitness factors you call them right? So I’m really trying to do these breathing exercises my key is at any time I have to wait for anything so like I was on the phone with Verizon and I’m like, oh, I’m waiting. I’ll start to do some box reading I’ll start to do you know I’m waiting in line you know at Target I’ll start to do these you know, these briefings with anything is better than nothing guys, any sort of mindful breathing I’m more diligent about getting into water after especially after I’ve been slimed you know, with really like heavy energy. Optimizing sleep has always been on my plate, I will try some of these strategies in that book, which is called essential tools for empaths by Judith Orlov, if you don’t do the Return to Sender at beyond just you building in these things for myself, my clients that I believe that this is a problem for, for them. But again, I feel like organically when someone recognizes that, that they are this even like with Joel, I know like, you and I are on the same page, like we recognize this. And we’ve always done things to help ourselves. So I think people really realize what works for them. But I think they need to be told because we’re caring women are caregivers and men can be an empath, too, but women are just these caregivers, you know codependent and then it leads to burnout, you need to recoup you know, you need to like re-learn, again, no set boundaries, these are all very healthy. Because if you’re sick, and on the couch, and don’t feel like you’re not you know, you’re not your best self. So you’re not helping anyone. And that’s what we want to do as empaths we really want to help people and so my last point is that I may have made it sound like being empathic is not a gift, but I do believe it really is, you know, I really do believe it is it’s just you have to learn to it’s just like with any gift, right? You just really have to learn how to use it the most wisely.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a superpower. Excuse me one second, so sorry.  That’s the luxury of having your own office now without a front office person. They knock on the door. But what I was gonna say there is and I will put that out. What I was gonna say is, there is a question on the questionnaire recently that I took I it’s those different personality styles. What’s that called? enneagram. It was it was Yes. What’s it called again?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: enneagram enneagram.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So I took that, and I learned a lot about myself in that in those answers, Kelly, and it was an aha moment and it was like less than a month ago. I took that And I think empaths have that, that propensity of putting themselves second, right, and doing what they can for other people at the expense of themselves, and they cut their nose off to spite their faces. It was helpful for me for that. Because that’s where like, Well, why am I saying, Why am I like saying no to myself, like, I’m not having integrity with myself, and that makes me less helpful for them. You know, and so I think that’s a huge, huge gift. The other thing I would say is, as well, as earlier, we talked about when Bob Miller says that people can sense the sharks can sense that in you, right? And that’s where I’d be interested to know. Like, if there was like, add three or four or five more questions in that questionnaire and see, like, sift out? Do they tend to gravitate towards Narcissus?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: There are many questions to all and you’re right, one of those is can they sniff you out? Do people just gravitate? Right, especially the ones who really are going to take advantage of you? Uh, sadly, but yeah. 100%   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s interesting. So as far as any specific formulations, because I’m always loving to talk to you about that. Any specific formulations professional health products have that would be again, I’m not for supplements as a magic wand. But anything in terms of dialing down the amplification or allowing you just to sort of take time to smell the roses? What have you found to your trick bag of tricks there?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Sure. So three things come to mind really, really simple. And I totally agree with you, we cannot supplement ourselves to help we I mean, you know, without covering all your other bases, right? You just can’t take a handful of pills and be magically better like nine times out of 10 at least. So number one, our new product called quiet calm. It is calming it has a branded ingredient in it called real Laura Laura is a mixture of Magnolia bark and philodendron and it has been researched clinically to help the stress response quiet calm is one of my new best friends like we go everywhere together mean quite calm. It also has some other medicinal herbs in there that is really calming to the nervous system. And then the other is just magnesium right magnesium out 75% of the population is deficient magnesium, get a really good form. Take some Epsom salt baths if you can topical magnesium, you know a lot of different forms. We have professional health products using Ms. Bizz glycinate. The studies show that when you take it from Albion, it actually gets absorbed, which is very helpful. And then you know what my new one is, is a sunflower. We have a product sunflower, it’s PCP epi. So postural Coleen, postural, not the tall and ethanolamine and all that stuff, because it has actually shown to be really helpful for cell membranes so physiologically, and it can help brain protection and really help with neurological things. So those are kind of like the three that come to mind. Of course, we have all the glutamate scavengers and things like that. and a whole plethora of products but really quite calm.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, that’s just what’s good. Yeah, I like that idea. Sometimes I’ll have people that will just message me that I don’t know them from Adam. It’s like, Can you recommend something was like no, I can’t but if I were to I typically had gone with those bioflavonoids to sort of ramp down that whole escalating, ever-escalating neural transmitters, inflammatory cytokines, but I do like the concept of, you know, if you need something right away, and you can get something that’s calming, what was the name of the new one that you have the neuro calm?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Is that what it’s called? Or it’s quiet, calm, Qu ICA all so yeah, that and just your standard magnesium. And again, these are this is not I’m not like suggesting again, someone goes and take this talk to your doctor, these are a doctor you know, only products, so you have to go through your doctor. But you know, just really has the studies to back everything that I’m saying, you know,   Dr. Joel Rosen: yeah, the link to that in the show notes and sort of my website. So, so as far awesome stuff. I guess, I usually ask this question, but I’ll make it a little more niche to what we talked about today. I usually ask, Hey, if you would have known what you know, now back then, as it related to your fatigue. If you would have known what you knew back then as it relates to your empathic, double-edged sword. What would you have done differently, do you think?   Dr. Kelly Halderman: Oh, I definitely would have not felt guilty about what my inner intuition was saying. My inner intuition was saying you can’t be You around this sort of energy are you you know, you need to set better boundaries, I wouldn’t have felt guilty about it, I would have been like, I am my best self. When I set these boundaries that I intuitively know. And I’ll tell you what I didn’t, I didn’t listen to my intuition at all. And I ended up bedridden. And I think that was one of the major problems is, you know, is not respecting that. And again, it took a lot of years to get back to where I am because I optimize genetics, I optimize all the lifestyle factors. And then this last piece with respecting this has been life-changing.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s a great, great answer. I love that. That’s right. I always say like, it’s you’re listening to your little angel, you know, like, you have to listen to your little angel, if you have a thought that I shouldn’t be doing this, or I know this is gonna not work out well, or I forgot to check. Now in my case, it’s not always good when you think you left the garage door open every single time you left the house. But that’s not so much a little angel. That’s just your neurosis coming through. But no, I would say though, if you listen to your little angel, more often than not, you’re going to be congruent with that empath. propensity, that’s an awesome answer. So where do we learn more about what you do and find out about you, Kelly,   Dr. Kelly Halderman: so I’m on Instagram, if you type in my name, I’m on Facebook. I have a big following on Facebook. I have Twitter, I have a website, Dr. Kelly halderman.com. It’s under construction right now. So taking a little longer than I thought, but I like to put all kinds of resources that I find helpful there. And then I honestly I’m gonna, I’m going to throw this out there, Joel lives, I think we should talk about the enneagram I really think we should come back and do that. Because it was you and I are the same. It was so helpful. It feels kind of the same. You know, playing Phil, this is the empathic and people can learn about who they are. And, again, that little angel that may mean more to them when they figure that out.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. We’ll do Part Four, for sure. I definitely will. We’ll put that up. We’ll put that I’m writing it down right now.   Dr. Kelly Halderman: So you don’t want me to back up. But I just thought,   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, that’s great. That’s great. I think it’s good. I mean, I don’t know enough about it, except that I took the test. But I think we could talk about what it means and being able to and I love the way that the new health model is headed towards is having all these other, I guess the intangible emphasis on how we live our life every day, and our own tendencies and behaviors and quirks and to love them and not judge them and have them work for you. And it’s not being it’s being selfish not it’s being I think it’s being selfish to be unselfish, right, you know, and if you’re going to be more into yourself or be aware of yourself, ultimately, that is, being more unselfish, I guess is a bit girly. Yeah. So anyway, I appreciate your time, Kelly, and I look forward to part two, and I wish you continued success in all your endeavors as well.   Dr. Kelly Halderman: All right, thank you, Dr. Joel. Have a great day.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you, Kelly.   To learn more about Dr. Kelly Halderman, click here To take the Empathy quiz, click here     The post How To Fight Fatigue Empathy appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: All right Hello everyone and welcome you back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And today, we’re doing a little bit of a field trip podcast, because I am walking outside in sunny Boca Raton, Florida, in the middle of the afternoon, because I had a couple of cancellations. And I wanted to record this week’s podcast of the less stress life, I don’t have a guest. But what I want to do is I want to share with you three major adrenal fatigue, bio hacks that you aren’t doing, that will make a huge, profound difference in your exhaustion and fatigue. So once again, my name is Dr. Joel Rosen. And the website that we have is called the truth about adrenal fatigue. And the reason why we call it the truth about Adrenal Fatigue is because it’s such a terrible term. It really is. And it doesn’t mean that you’re not exhausted, or you don’t have low libido or motivation or drive, or you’re not handling stress very well. You don’t crash in the middle of the day, or you’re more wired and tired at night, or you wake up with little energy in the morning. All of those things are going on, but the actual term called adrenal fatigue, very seldomly goes on and you’ve probably heard me say this many times. But maybe you haven’t, that. Given that it’s a terrible term. When traditional allopathic and Korean doctors, family, physicians, gastrointestinal doctors, internal medicine, doctors, hear the term adrenal fatigue, it almost makes the hair on their arm stand up. And the reason that is is that they didn’t learn that in medical school, it’s not in the peer-reviewed journals. And if it’s not taught, or studied, or operationalized. And operationalize means, given a great definition that you can actually test for in peer-reviewed journals, that it doesn’t exist, and what traditional doctors will do, which is, is a triage, like think about the medics in the army, they triage the troops that come in, and they and hospitals do that to where if you are having a bleeding neck injury, you need to be attended to first. And if you have a cut, you don’t need to be attended to us as quickly. So it is with faulty adrenal insufficiency, and that’s the term that traditional doctors accept. They accept the fact that if they do it ACTH stimulation test, and they give you a pituitary hormone that signals your adrenals to make amongst other things of adrenal hormones, aldosterone, cortisol, other types of glucocorticoids. And it doesn’t output a minimal amount of cortisol, then it is called adrenal insufficiency. And if it does have a response, then there’s no such thing as adrenal fatigue. So it’s black or white, you either have an insufficiency, or you don’t. And that’s good for the 1970s or 60s or 50s. Health care, when we didn’t have as many environmental triggers, or social media, or EMF and Wi-Fi, are depleted nutrients in our soils, or elect politicians. And the way that the biased information that’s the media portrays to you creates such polarization of people meaning it’s like everyone’s out against everyone. And as a result, when that is going on, and you’re not giving a shade of gray to what you have going on, just because you didn’t fail, and adrenal fatigue insufficiency test doesn’t mean you don’t need to be attended to. And so we aren’t going to talk about the three hacks that I want you to do. But I still want to go back into the truth about Adrenal Fatigue and how it’s such a terrible term. Because there are so many things that can go wrong with the signaling, the utilization, and the processing of the nutrients. That cortisol makes or what the adrenal glands output. That just to say that you’re not, you’re producing enough, or you’re not producing enough. So I shouldn’t use double negatives. But just because you have enough cortisol, and that you don’t have too little, doesn’t mean you have an adrenal problem doesn’t mean you don’t have it. You have an HPA axis dysfunction. Let me give you an example. Today I did, a Dutch review on a 55-year-old female. And typically, I want them to fill out the questionnaires that we give them metabolic assessment forms, send me their last two years of blood work. Let’s meet let’s look at your timeline and history. So that I can look at that before looking at the Dutch test to give the Dutch test some context because the Dutch test is a great test that stands for the dried urine, total cortisol, and hormone test. And we send that all over the world. We’ve sent that to Australia, to Germany, to Spain, all over Canada and us. And it’s a really easy kit. It’s a dried sample. So you take your urine, at dinnertime at bedtime, when you first wake up and two hours later. And if you happen to pee at night, you will take that overnight sample as well. And then it will look at your different hormones. And I’ll get into that in a second. But if I’m just looking at that, and I’m not looking at your questionnaires, and I’m not looking at your health history, and I’m not looking at your blood work, I can see the result of stress on your body. But I can’t really come up with a lot of hard, specific details on why it’s playing out like that. Because that’s requiring me to be a doctor and conduct a thorough history and correlate how you’re feeling with what you’re doing with what you’ve done with what you’ve experienced, and with what your objective labs tell you to put that Dutch test into context. So we did the Dutch test review, the 55 years old female gives you a little bit of information. She’s exhausted, she’s tired, she’s burnt out. She thinks she has lots of CO infections like Lyme and EBV and HSV, one different viral infection. And she didn’t send me any bloodwork. And she didn’t fill out my questionnaires. And she let me know that she has concerns about fatigue and immune dysregulation. And so we went over her Dutch test. And I’ll tell you some of the findings we saw on it. So the first finding is, it does look at your cortisol rhythm. And cortisol should be on a circadian rhythm. It should be nice and high in the morning and low in the evening. So when the sun rises in the morning, your cortisol awakening response should double. You should have a real high output of cortisol, and then it should come down throughout the rest of the day. And in her instance, she did have a cortisol awakening response, which is good, it wasn’t as abundant as it should be. But it wasn’t flatlined either. And a lot of the clients that I work with, have really really flatlined cortisol awakening responses. And the research does show flatline cortisol awakening responses. That’s where you’ll see a lot, of chronic health challenges. In fact, the lower the cortisol awakening response to increase in morbidity and mortality. So anyway, she told me, You know, I have been doing a lot better over the years. And I said, Well, that’s interesting, because now that I know that, and now that I see that you have an awakening response, although it’s not as abundant, as we’d really like to see it. I could suggest that your trajectory is getting better, right? Because you’re telling me you’re getting better. I asked you as a doctor, you’re telling me it’s gotten better. So I would assume that had we done this test? A year two years ago, we would have seen the cortisol awakening response be flatlined. So the good news is you have an awakening response that is getting you ready for the day you’re recording eating your circadian rhythm. With the cortisol output, you’re getting calibrated to the earth. And that’s really what you want at the end of the day when you’re exhausted and you’re burnt out. And you may be told that there’s no such thing as adrenal fatigue or it’s a crappy term. So your blood tests come back normal, or you didn’t fail a CTS ACTH stimulation test, you can bet that you are not coordinated with the circadian rhythm, your cortisol is not abundant in the morning, it’s not getting that increase in in the first waking hours. And then it’s not coming down, it’s dysregulated, there might be low than high. Or it might be a roller coaster ride because there are blood sugar imbalances, and it’s low than high than low than high, you can tell by the curve of that circadian rhythm, what may be going on. So in her case, the good news was that her circadian rhythm was not flatlined, she had an awakening response. The other thing that we noticed was her free fraction was a lot lower than her metabolized cortisol. And what does that mean, you’re not going to see this on a saliva test, because a saliva test only looks at your free fraction. And that’s what in this example, that awakening response, the graph, the representation of the Dutch test. That’s what that is telling us about the free fraction. But what it also tells us is the metabolized cortisol for that time period. So if you start the test at dinnertime, and it’s five or 6 pm, then you go to bed, then you wake up to pee, then you wake up in the morning, and two hours later, the total of all the cortisol that’s bound to a protein. And that’s not down to a protein. It’s called your metabolize cortisol. So it’s how much cortisol is produced for the day. And in her expectation, because she thought she had adrenal fatigue, that would have been the marker that should have been really low. People that are exhausted and burnt out and can no longer signal the HPA axis to output cortisol, they’ll have really low metabolize cortisol. In her instance, she had really high metabolized cortisol, but the ratio of that to the free fraction was a lot more skewed. And that’s a really important test finding. So if you’ve done a Dutch test, go back and relook at it, and see, if your output of metabolized cortisol was much higher than your free fraction. If it is, it means that your HPA axis is still up-regulated, you’re still signaling from the brain because of stress, because of inflammation, because of blood sugar imbalances, because of just overwhelming, and what I call demand and supply problems. Because of all of those things going on, your brain still needs to put out a lot of cortisol, or at least your brain needs cortisol hormone to function properly because it has the highest priority of getting that hormone in the body. But what is also happening at the cellular level, at the level at which the tissues, the GI system, the working muscles, the heart, the lungs, the kidneys, are doing things to deactivate or not utilize all the cortisol that you’re producing. And that’s a really big lesson that a lot of practitioners Miss. And that comes with just doing so many of these tests, not only for my clients but for myself, too, because I’ve suffered from my own exhaustion problem. So why would your body do that? Well, your body’s infinitely intelligent. And it knows more about what’s going on at the cellular level than any doctor does. And that you do, and any textbook does, it is the absolute truth. And when your body is getting too much cortisol, too, over too much time, because of too many stressors, then it comes up with these protective backup mechanisms. To make sure that you’re not catabolic, we breaking down all your tissues, because it’s like caching in the mutual funds you are, you are depleting you’re stored your stored energy, you’re depleting your minerals because that’s what your adrenals are called. They’re called your mineral corticoids. And what you’re doing is when you signal to the adrenals, you’re signaling, hey, we need you to make our fluid levels available. We need to get all of those minerals out of the cells and drive energy production because we have a crisis here. But then, at the cellular level, we see that your body is either making more proteins and not allowing that free fraction to be free. It’s binding it to a protein. So it takes away the availability of the free cortisol. It doesn’t mean you’re not producing a lot of cortisol, In this case, she was producing a lot of cortisol. She is just going into a protective mode to not utilize it. And there’s a lot of different mechanisms our body does to do that. It makes more binding proteins. It deactivates cortisol into cortisone, which is shown on that test were on page three or four. You’re looking at the ratio of cortisone, cortisol. I tell clients that cortisone is the inactive form of cortisol. So what happens is your brain signals to your Geno’s? Hey, make a lot of cortisol, that’s your metabolize cortisol for the given time period. But when you look at the free fraction, and you see it’s a lot downregulated, then you can see that your body’s doing some things to protect that a lot of the times there, the Dutch test people will tell you that that can happen when there’s a lot of adipose tissue, because adipose tissue can produce more cortisol, which is new findings nowadays. But with the 11 beta HSD, what it’s doing is it’s saying, hey, instead of being a diploid troop, and go to the war, what we want you to do is be an army reservist, and we want you to be deactivated into cortisone. And I see that a lot of times with people that have an upregulated cortisol metabolized, HPA axis going haywire. And we’ll tell you at the end, here are three bio hacks that you can do to be able to support this as well. So going back into her test, she wanted to know, okay, does this mean I have adrenal fatigue? Then? I say no, it doesn’t mean you have adrenal fatigue. Remember, it’s a crappy term because very seldom Will you ever fail an ACTH test. But people that present with down-regulated HPA axis it excited is when I see that your total metabolize cortisol is low, your total free fraction is low. And even your data is low. So on this particular test, it shows that our metabolize cortisol was really high. Her free total hurt her total free was down-regulated and not being utilized because of extra proteins and Heat Shock proteins and even the activation of cortisol into cortisone to be the active reserve. All those things are deactivating her cortisol. But on top of that now, her total data her total estrogen, and our total progesterone, and our total testosterone were all low. And she felt that she felt like she had hormone imbalances, no, no mood, no libido, no motivation, no drive. And I’ll tell her like, what happens is when your brain is signaling so much to make cortisol, it up-regulates the priority of cortisol. And it down-regulates the priority or the receptors to make your sex hormones and that would make sense, right? Like if I’m under stress, and I have a lot of fires to put out and a low amount of firefighting ability to do that. I’m not going on vacation, right? And that’s kind of the analogy I use is, if I have a lot of oxidative stress, metabolic overwhelm inflammation, HPA axis upregulation. I am not worried about reproduction at the end of the day, so I told her, the best answer is you don’t have adrenal fatigue on here. You have maladaptive adrenals, maladaptive adrenals, meaning your HPA axis is upregulated. And that needs to be investigated. That’s where I needed more information, looking at blood work and seeing inflammatory markers, regulation of iron, liver enzymes, cholesterol, cholesterol utilization, white blood cells, red blood cells, electrolytes, proteins, so many things that you can get insight into as to what may be causing that HPA axis regulation or dysregulation. I said you have HPA axis, HPA axis dysregulation, and as a result, your body is kind of robbing Peter to pay Paul in terms of sex hormones are not being produced and you’re not utilizing your cortisol as effectively. But yet your body is also overproducing it. And that’s a stressful thing to happen where the alarms are saying Everyone’s being signaled. But then you’re not able to utilize all of the actors in the play, because there’s just too much chaos going on. And as a result, you feel low, you feel demotivated, you don’t have energy your libido is down. But guess what? Your ACTH stimulation test is not negative.   Right? I mean, this other thing that we see. And again, I’m going to get to the, give me the three clinical pearls here in a second. I just want to continue with this example. So then we looked on the next page. And we saw that her estrogen levels were low. But what we look at is how does she metabolize? How does she clear out and eliminate her estrogens, because we can get a lot of information on phase one? And phase two detox, even if she has very low estrogen to clear out what she did. And she would write because at the end of the day, she’s 55, she stopped having her cycle when she was 40, in their 40s. And her estrogen, and her ovaries, and our reproductive system is not producing as many sex hormones. And she’s low on that. The other thing I’m concerned about is she has really high cholesterol. What she told me, my concern is, is that that cholesterol that’s really high, should be able to convert into pregnenolone, progesterone, estrogen, and if she has any gi issues of absorbing cholesterol or even genetic susceptibilities of utilizing cholesterol, then that can cause her hormones to below as well. So I told her, I wanted to look at her ancestry test, which she happens to have. And then I wanted to look at her fatty acid metabolism, and see if she has some of these gene snips. Some of the gene snips would be spent this, ACA T, SLC 20, a five, there’s a lot of gene snips that can really muck up her ability to use her cholesterol. And as a result, she has this upregulated stressed demand for her HPA axis, she’s robbing Peter to pay Paul. But at the same time, she’s not even supplying enough nutrients for Peter and Paul. It’s hard to rob Peter from Paul when Peter and Paul don’t have much money, to begin with. And again, that would lead to her being exhausted, and fatigued, and burned out, and overwhelm yet she’s negative on our HPA axis. Sorry, on our ACTH stimulation test, and there’s no such thing as adrenal fatigue. And you could see here, how we get so much more information from looking at a Dutch test, putting your doctor hat on, asking a person how they’re feeling, and wanting to know about their past tests, so that we can customize a recovery strategy around all of that. And so what happened in her case was, she had an upregulated four-oh h pathway. And in English, what that means is, that’s the unhealthy estrogen pathway. And that can be upregulated, because of inflammation, because of stress, because of all the things that would cause her, her and her HPA axis to be going off would be the same stress and triggers that would cause her estrogen metabolism to go down the wrong inflammatory pathway.   And this is where women that have estrogen-like cancers go down this pathway. And they get concerned about taking estrogen hormones because they are up-regulating that for a wage pathway, which ultimately creates a lot of DNA damage. And so I told her Well, the good news is, you have so low estrogen anyways, even though if you’re going down that pathway, you’re not creating so much load on your detox pathways that can’t handle it, and ultimately end up oxidizing and creating DNA damage, but we still want to support that. And one of the things that we see best to support that is the use of cruciferous vegetables and sulforaphane. If you’re looking for where to get some good quality, high organic, certified grade, sulforaphane, drop me a message because we are starting to produce that now and send that all over the world. We’re really excited about that. On top of that, on the last page of the Dutch test, we look at the organic acid markers, and one of the organic acid markers that were really low for this particular patient. Was there Pyroglutamate, and Pyroglutamate is a marker of how able is this patient is able to keep up with inflammation Control stress and inflammation because that’s really what glue the fire on is produced for beautifying is produced when we have toxins, stress, inflammation, and the need to control cortisol or to control inflammation and make cortisol. And that’s going to be one of the major strategies I’m going to recommend in terms of biohacking, your adrenal fatigue challenges, but I just want you to get an overview of how we came up with these three strategies. So, again, not correlated with the upregulation of her HPA axis, her down-regulation of utilizing it, her robbing Peter to pay Paul, so to speak with her sex hormones falling, and how she was metabolizing, estrogen going down one of the inflammatory pathways, and now having low ion and I told her as she said, she said to me, do you think the glue define is the inflammation is high? Because the glue to fire on is low? Or do you think it’s the other way around? I said to her, it’s kind of like, asking, do you think that the water is depleted? Because the fire is burning? And I would say yeah, like that’s what it is mostly like, if you have oxidative stress, you already know you have these viruses that reoccur and you’ve had other challenges in your life and you really haven’t looked at your genetics. And maybe your blood sugar’s not staying stable, but you’ve come a long way you’ve gotten better. One of the things I would recommend is using sulforaphane, which is the main ingredient in supporting your nerf two and your glue to fire an output, which I would bet the world she has some gene snips on those meaning her body is not able to signal those effectively, and she’s gonna need lifelong support with that. But the quota fi on being low. Her going down that four pathway suggests that she needs that inflammation control. And that was one of the main things that we recommended. The other thing we recommended is she wanted to know, can she take her seven keto DGA, and I did recommend that now, I haven’t seen research and you can call me out on this if you find it yourself. That shows that the seven keto data is any better than the other sheet-like da forms. And but I said, Listen, 50 milligrams for 30 days is a good strategy based on the fact that your data is really low, your estrogen is really low, your progesterone is low, and your testosterone is low. Now, she said what about pregnenolone? And I said I wouldn’t necessarily rush for pregnenolone because you’re what was in there? The astute listener will say, Well, what was in there that wouldn’t have let you rush to that.   And it’s the fact that the HPA axis was upregulated, she was making a lot of metabolized cortisol. Cortisol was not her problem, making too much of it and utilizing it, and dampening down the stress signals was her problem. pregnenolone is not going to fix that if anything pregnant alone could create a bigger disparity between the two. Does that make sense? I hope that makes a lot of sense. So we didn’t recommend that. And then the other thing we recommended was, Hey, get us those blood tests. I mean, we need to see the blood test. And the other great news was, she had already an ancestry test. So we’re going to be doing that ancestry test review, but we gave her four weeks of marching orders. And the four weeks of marching orders are to use the sulforaphane even recommended the Gouda thigh on for her even though I haven’t seen her genetic susceptibilities. And that’s really key when I’m looking at someone’s beautify on production because I want to know, are they able to make it as their transsulfuration pathway working acceptably or not? Are they able to recycle the Bluetooth ion? Are they able, to synthesize it with other raw materials or ingredients? And are they able to be able to utilize it? And there are gene susceptibilities that will make that very difficult to be able to do and in this case, I need to see that on her genetics, but I still recommended doing the lepas oma fluidify on I recommended doing the sulforaphane I recommended doing the seven keto D ha that would not have been my first choice but I’m pro-patient. And I don’t want them to go out and buy a supplement when they already have a whole bunch of supplements in their pantry and that’s something that drives me crazy when I work with clients. And if we can come up with a strategy that already utilizes the nutrients in their pantry then why the heck not because ultimately those are expensive products that you could be utilizing, but just more intelligently. And this is what we wanted to do. And so that’s what we’re going to do. And there’s Got a little excited, they’ve dropped the phone, do not drop the phone when you’re doing the podcast. But anyway, there’s a lot of great information in there, and the Dutch test. And the other thing we saw on her Dutch test, which was helpful, which we didn’t really get into too much, was that her VMA ratios are really low. And VMA really is banjo mandolin is an organic acid that tells me about her genuine production. And my suspicion is is that with iron metabolism, the recycling of her BH four, which is called by Opteron, is NA D dependent and fully dependent. And other gene snips that make it work properly, are not recycling. And when that doesn’t recycle, it doesn’t make your neurotransmitters and therefore her VMA would below, she won’t be able to make enough adrenaline. And the paradox is when she gets stressed out because he’s not making enough adrenaline when she gets anxious. And some people will think well, wouldn’t that only be if she makes too much? Yeah, it would be that too. But that’s what’s confusing about it is you can have high adrenaline and be anxious, you can have low adrenaline and be anxious. And you don’t want to just stick to one major generalization of if it’s high, it’s this. It’s this low. It’s that because many times in functional medicine, high values can be the same symptoms as low values. And you really need to test for that. But in this case, she had a low clearance of her VMA, which suggests that she is not making enough neurotransmitters to be able to handle her stress response. And that’s all because everything is overactive. And ultimately, we’re not getting to the inflammatory challenges. So I hope that made a lot of sense. So what I want to do now is give you the three bio hacks. So bio Hack number one is and I will give a link to this on either my, my profile, or in the show notes or on my website of where you can get these sulfite and sulfate testing strips. But the sulfite and sulfates testing strips are key. Because now, if she is attempting to make good refiners she’s depleted in her ability to make beautifying because her beautifying markers are low, and I assume that she has nerfed to problems and that’s why we recommended the sulforaphane. She has a problem with keeping up with the demand making enough supply for making her gratify on. And that requires a fully functioning transsulfuration pathway. Very complicated. We look at your genetics, but ultimately it takes your methyl groups and it helps to create glue to fly on. And if there are some challenges in that, you’ll overproduce sulfites, and you may even overproduce sulfates. So one of the ways we can tell if that’s going on is to buy sulfide and sulfate strips and see okay is my sulfates above 10. If it is I’m going down this pathway too quickly. If I’m going down this pathway too quickly, I can maybe stop some cells for food. Although I do not recommend that. I typically recommend that sulforaphane and that route if I on to help that out, so that she doesn’t have to pull all those methyl groups that she would otherwise be using for energy production and driving other reactions to detoxifying and reduce inflammation. And sulfide and sulfate testing will help us understand that sulfate should be between 400 to 800. And if she’s above that, then she’s going down that pathway too quickly. If she’s below that, and her sulfites were high. She’s not converting to sulfates, which is a big problem. And the same reason that would cause her to go down those pathways too quickly, would cause her and genetic susceptibilities, and environmental triggers like aluminum or heavy metals. Those will slow down the conversion of those sulfites to the sulfates, and there’ll be low and that instance of really easy, great supplement you could recommend is molybdenum. molybdenum will help clear your sulfates into sulfates and even if your sulfites were high and your sulfates are high, molybdenum still could be a good product to be able to lower that sulfate because that’s sulfide It will create a lot of distress in your body. So that’s the first hack.   The second hack that I want you to do. It’s called nitric oxide testing nitric oxide testing. So, nitric oxide is a really important nutrient that creates blood flow. It helps to basal dilate, it helps the cell signal, it helps to coordinate the immune response. And what all of those up regulations are happening for the HPA axis of transsulfuration. She’s going to be low on nitric oxide. And so I’d like her to test her nitric oxide, I’ll put the link to that in my on my webpage. And you can see as you get better, and you start controlling that your nitric oxide levels will boost. And then the third factor, which is what we’re using, with all our clients now, is going to be the continuous glucose monitor. I can’t tell you how many times I have people tell me they’re hypoglycemic. And then I asked them, did you take your blood sugar? And they say, no, then how do you know you’re hypoglycemic? I mean, I get that, chances are you don’t have insulin resistance, you exercise a lot, you’re not overweight, you’re, you’re shredded, or ripped, or maybe you’re not. And you’re not even thinking insulin resistance. But you have to think insulin resistance, where oxidative stress, inflammation, transsulfuration HPA axis dysregulation, all the things that we’re talking about, will cause insulin spikes. And when insulin levels are high, and you eat food, it’s not getting into the cell. If it’s not getting into the cell, that’s going to make you feel hypoglycemic, even though paradoxically, your hyperglycemia. When you look at your blood sugar, with a continuous glucose monitor, you find that you are elevated. And that there’s a lot of things that happen, that you don’t even realize that stimulate your insulin and blood sugar, one of the main ones, and perhaps we’ll do a podcast about this is when you have really, really high exposures to EMF. So let’s say your wireless router, your phone, sleeping it with it underneath your pillow, your routers in your room, you have a smart meter, or you have a cell tower, or you have a trans transmissive trans transmitter box or our power station near you. That’s going to drive up your insulin. I hate to tell you this, and you need to do things that will remediate that. But suffice the lesson in this podcast today on the three hacks to be able to help with your adrenal fatigue is continuous glucose monitor and doing it for 14 days. And for me, it was just enlightening. to just understand how life stress sleep food activity, mindset, impacted, EMF computer use, impacted my blood sugar. And I urge you to do that. So once again, the three lessons we talked about are sulfite and sulfate testing, look for the link on my website. You want to be somewhere between zero to 10. From sulfites 400 to 800 persulfates. You want to look at your nitric oxide, see if that’s being produced, it will be red when you do your testing strips. I bet that it’s going to be white and you’re not producing a lot of nitric oxides, whole other podcast, and then the continuous glucose monitor. So I hope you found that really helpful. Just make sure you like you to subscribe, we really appreciate it if you can put a comment on the podcast comment section in iTunes, and tell me if you’re getting a lot of value out of this podcast, I would really appreciate it that. And don’t forget to we do work with clients all over the world. We do a 45 minute, no-obligation consultation. However, don’t kick tires in this instance. And that’s not an offense. My time is important. And I get that you want to ask me questions can you can send me questions to my social media and I’ll answer them. But if we’re going to dedicate 45 minutes, I want you to be serious about potentially getting better if you feel like we’re a good fit for each other. And I’ll give you that same promise in return where not everyone’s a good fit for me. And at the end of the day, my goal for this call is to get to the truth of what’s not working. What have you done, what have you tried? What hats have you put on and hypothesized as to what’s not happening and what needs to be working on what you’ve done and what’s missing and how impacting you. And ultimately, what would you be doing differently if you didn’t have this. And then that way, I can give you a game plan a step by step, action step that I want you to take, whether we work together or not. But because I feel I can help you or I don’t feel like you’re a good fit for me, doesn’t change the fact that you’ll still get those pieces of the puzzle for the time that we spend together. But that’s only if you’re coming committed, and ready to do something about this now, and know that your life’s been put on hold for so long, that you need to get it back yesterday, and you’ve been looking for a practitioner, that’s a lot of people will tell me that is I’ve been looking for someone like you that can put all those puzzle pieces together that no one else has been able to do. And I get that you’re frustrated, I get that you’re skeptical. I get that you feel you’ve tried everything, and nothing’s worked. But if what we’re talking about in our podcast, was sulfide sulfate testing nitric oxide, continuous glucose monitor, genetic testing how well you’re utilizing, utilizing your fat, maladaptive adrenals, all of the connections that we made. If you’ve already done all of those connections, which I highly doubt that you have in common, then I say to people like yourself, who said, I’ve tried everything under the belt everything under the moon to get better, nothing works, then I challenge you on that. I challenge you on that. And if you feel that way, even still, I’m going to go as far as saying, I can tell you one of the main things that are working against you is your mindset, and your belief and your certainty, and knowing that you deserve to be healthy. And you’re going to do whatever it takes, even if you find are found or have thought that you’ve done everything you can to be healthy. And now you’re giving up. That’s one of the main reasons you’re still not getting better. So anyways, Dr. Joel Rosen for the truth about adrenal fatigue and less stressful life. Until next time, have an awesome day. Click here for Sulfite testing strips Click here for Sulfate testing strips Click here for Nitric Oxide testing strips The post 3 Amazing Adrenal Fatigue Biohacks appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: All right Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly and I’m excited to interview My next guest because I’ve just seen his ascent through the rankings and, and relevancy of the world of biohacking. Lucas is an Australian leading biohacker with over seven years of experiencing, researching, and experimenting with nootropics and other performance-enhancing enhancing compounds. Lucas Owen is extremely motivated to discover something big for science that can benefit millions of people globally. I love that Luke Lucas also offers cutting-edge health content, ranging from nutrition research, homework, hormone research, nootropic research that 99% of the world has never heard of. And we’ll have first-hand ins information from Lucas today, Lucas thrives on offering insanely valuable content on a global scale. And, Lucas, thank you so much for being here today.   Lucas Aoun: Thanks for having me, Joel. Yeah, very, stoked to be here and can’t wait to chat.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, listen, I remember it was a couple of years ago, where you sent me an email, or a DM and I’m always excited to help anyone out that has an interest in learning. I never look at it as a lack mentality whatsoever. If I can help someone else that would help someone else. I don’t feel like that’s infringing on my space. And I’m glad that I did. Because, you know, it goes to show you, you reap what you sow. And now you get contact with someone who’s moving up through the ranks, and you created good karma with that person.   Lucas Aoun: Yeah, it’s funny. Just tell like, just at a keen curiosity reached out just to ask you a few questions. And now like, ever since then, it’s snowballed. And now I’m just doing what I love every day, which is, which is awesome.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, excellent. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about your story, Lucas, because a lot of people that get into this space, have their own Hero’s Journey or what they’ve been through, and I think it helps our listener understand that there are possibilities of getting health back and then using your challenges to make your armor that much more fortified. But why don’t you tell us a little bit about your background and what some of your health challenges may have looked like?   Lucas Aoun: Yeah, sure. I mean, my journey started out playing professional soccer, I was always focused on the performance-enhancing side of things, how I can improve my performance on the soccer field. And then just sort of from there, I ended up studying exercise science and fell in love with like research. And then obviously, I also fell in love with experimentation and seeing what various supplements and various protocols were doing to my biology. And then from there just transitioned out of that exercise science degree and started studying natural empathy. So like a four-year degree here in Melbourne, Australia. And yeah, just really gained a lot of traction through, you know, researching more about herbs and supplements, and just fell in love with the fact that we can take control of our biology. And then yeah, that’s, that’s been my, my sort of mission is to help share that, what I’ve learned, and all of this underground content that I research, My mission is just to provide people with what I see, I’ve always been, I lead by the premise of, if you know, something that can benefit millions of people, there’s no point withholding that information that is might as well just get it out there and just spread the message. Because as you know, like to spread good vibes, good vibes come back to you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So yeah, yeah, for sure. I’ve found that that rings true a lot with people that either are insecure or have challenges that they don’t want to share information. And you’re right, it does create reciprocity to bring more into your life. But I’m just curious. So for more for performance-enhancing and your athletic adventures, were there any ever challenges with mental capacity or learning or just energy or fatigue at all for yourself, Lucas?    Lucas Aoun:  Yeah, I mean, I did also struggle with acid reflux for many, many years. And my dad’s a pharmacist, so I sort of thought I was privileged in the fact that I could get away with the reflux using proton pump inhibitors or Nexium medications, just to suppress the reflux and that’s really what catapulted me into learning more about physiology and things like that and learned that, you know, it’s doing a great job at suppressing symptoms, but then it was leading to B 12 deficiency. I had low iron And then all these other negative symptoms of like, correlated with like low iron and things like that. So that’s that did affect my quality of life. And then really just was profoundly fascinated by, you know, our first trial white one particular compound Elfi, Nene. And I tried that before one of my soccer matches and noticed that that was having a dramatic effect on my performance on the soccer field. And I was like, Hmm, what else is out there? Like, what else can I exploit and explore? to benefit my existence? Basically?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s cool. It’s, it’s interesting being the son of a pharmacist, how you would have almost inherently that susceptibility to want to see how compounds impact your body, but you’ve taken that other fork in the road, and you’re gone going more of the holistic, ergogenic way of helping your body. So how does dad feel about what path you’ve taken and what path he’s taken?   Lucas Aoun: Um, to be honest, at the start, I think he was a little bit, skeptical and questioning whether there’s any research or evidence for natural modalities and things like that. But funnily enough, I think two years into my degree got him off his medications. He was on reflux medications himself, and I ended up, you know, formulating various bitter Herbes and bitter, particular stacks, which I think now looking back to the very, very basic, but since then he’s, you know, he’s been, doesn’t use his reflux medication since. And I worked in the pharmacy as well, like I, I worked there for like, four or five years on understanding what it’s like to be in an environment. And without a doubt, it’s been super beneficial for my growth. And I’m, again, I’m not, although I am studying, you know, natural beauty and holistic medicine, I’m still, you know, I still will look at how they do things and utilize those modalities were, where necessary. Like, I’m not one of those hippie naturopaths. That’s like, you know, just to herbal medicine, and that is like, I think there’s a time and place for both for sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, and that’s where the word ergogenic comes into play. Right? So why don’t you tell our listeners with the CEO and founder of ergogenic Health what ergogenic means and what ergogenic Health stands for?   Lucas Aoun: Yeah, so the word ergogenic just refers to any technique, substance, or protocol that can improve physiological or psychological performance. So it’s very much based on less so about the disease and sickness model. But how can we take someone who’s already quite healthy, or performing quite well to perform even better and feel even better? It’s sort of like enhancing your quality of life. So really, that word ergogenic, I fell in love with, when I was doing my research, I was like, Damn, that’s a cool word. I want to use that. And then I just, I use as my business name, ergogenic health. So really, I try and tell people that my business is not just focused on, you know, the disease sickness model, but more about promoting vitality, wellness, and quality of life.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, yeah. And you know, what’s so great about that, too, is because I happen to have my own health story of fatigue and exhaustion and burnout. And I discovered that doctors don’t believe in this phenomenon. And they black and white it as it’s either or it isn’t. And I had to go through my journey to get my health back. So the people that I help are typically those types of people that are exhausted and burnt out. But what I love is the idea of for people that are looking to already improve their performance, who like dedicate years and decades to the difference, I can’t remember what comedian it was. But they imagine like imagine, and like the 100-yard dash, where you train forever. And it’s like this, this, like you were this behind, you know, and ergogenic could be the difference between a gold medal and not but ultimately extrapolate those concepts, Lucas, to people that are exhausted and burnt out, and still get the benefit and that much even more, because they have such a weakened, debilitated starting point. So why don’t we transition into that? Because I’m excited to talk about that with you in terms of what some of these novel ergogenic and or no, no trophic support you have. So why don’t you start with no Tropix? And what does that word mean, for perhaps the listener that I know your listener knows it, and perhaps my listener knows it, but some of us don’t. So what exactly is it?   Lucas Aoun: Yeah. So just Firstly, what you mentioned about that 1% difference, I think that’s true. Like it needs to be Taking into account the fine details. And that’s where I think some of these compounds can help. And so the word nootropics refers to any compound, either natural or synthetic, that can improve any aspect of cognitive function. So that can be a compound that improves memory concentration, alertness, motivation, reduce anxiety, all of the different aspects of cognitive performance. And so like, the very, probably the most well known, quote, unquote, like a nootropic, would be caffeine, caffeine, your listeners will know a lot about caffeine from Chrome and adrenal fatigue perspective. But we do know a lot about how caffeine acts in the brain. And we do know if you know quite well, which receptors it binds to, and activates, and triggers. So caffeine is technical Yes, it’s a nootropic. But other nootropics are, that can deliver that energy boost and improve alertness without the side effects of the increased blood pressure raising cortisol, you know, and then the withdrawal and tolerance, which is, you know, there are so many compounds out there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So then there’s the word nootropic, then encompass the fact that not only do we want to take this natural or synthetic compound and improve physiology, 1% or more, but we also want to minimize or eliminate or not even have those negative side effects.   Lucas Aoun: Yeah, yeah, as part of the official definition for a nootropic. There are five key criteria. That’s established by a Romanian chemist, Corneliu GA, he stated, like five key criteria. The first one is that they have to improve learning and memory, they have to protect the brain against various chemical stresses, they have to protect the brain against physical toxins. And they also have to be free of the typical side effects associated with psychostimulants, and like depleting compounds. So you can sort of seeing how nootropics are there, as like neuroprotective that compounding they lead to a better brain, better brain function, and better brain infrastructure over time? Whereas compounds like certain stimulants and things like that they can, they can Rob from tomorrow. So they’re not nootropics they’re depleting the body’s resources.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Okay, great. So what I love about that also, is because I like that concept, especially for biohackers, they don’t seem to be as hippyish in terms. I mean, I’m more of a hippie, right? So, but they don’t seem to be as hippyish in terms of, hey, if it’s a nootropic, and it’s synthetic, but it fits the definition of those five key things that you mentioned. And it doesn’t create negative effects than what’s the problem. And I agree with that to a certain extent, I mean, I can’t prescribe in that capacity. But I would agree with that in terms of if we can harness not just nootropics but medications that are out there that have different nootropic effects, then we can kind of Biohack in a way that is is ultimately helping our body. So why don’t you tell us your definition of what it is to Biohack?   Lucas Aoun: Yeah, I mean, I was just thinking of a key sort of foundational aspect there. Like the whole premise of biohacking for me is to utilize various aspects of your environment and utilizing resources to improve your quality of life. So looking at it as like, you’re just every day you’re implementing one new strategy to improve your baseline like your just your baseline state of the functioning or being so and that can be broken up into various categories. You know, biohacking sleep. biohacking, digestion just means optimizing your quality of life. But really, I think the key point is that we’re building upon infrastructure and we’re building a foundation that’s getting stronger and stronger and more robust over time. Not that we’re utilizing things that are acutely gonna give us an increase in performance. But then tomorrow, we’re 50% below baseline. I don’t think that’s true. biohacking. I think true. biohacking is using strategic use of various compounds and protocols to just facilitate the progression of mankind.    Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, right. Well, and I think strategic is a really important term because it’s not a linear one. One is good, a lot is better. It’s a Goldilocks of not too little, not too much. And understanding all of the physiology and the environment to be able to get the best response from things. So why don’t we like listen to fatigue and exhaustion and brain fog, and not being sharp on the ball and being overstimulated and can’t turn the brain off and waking up in the middle of the night. So how, let’s get into what word you told me when I was in touch with being interviewed by you, which is like what, what is that? So cosmetic neurology. I think that’s an awesome term. So cosmetic neurology, adrenal fatigue, brain fog. nootropics. Let’s start with however you want to start within that area. Lucas?   Lucas Aoun: Yeah. So cosmetic neurology is a term that looks at how we can manipulate neurotransmitters to suit our means for a particular activity or task or environment. So the way I look at it is the perfect example is like, let’s say somebody is going out, you know, to a party or an event or a dinner or something, and they need to be in a certain state of being where they feel not anxious, they feel disinhibited, they feel free-flowing, and almost like in a joker slash sarcastic. Attitude sort of state of mind. So that there is like, Okay, well, how do we, if somebody wants to feel like that when they go out, and they want to be on point and sharp and funny and witty, and maybe sarcastic? What can we do with our neurotransmitters to facilitate that outcome, like, what is happening in the brain to, you know, come across like that to other people? So that’s where understanding cosmetic neurology and neurotransmitters come in is that what happens when we increase GABA, we see an anxiety reduction and reduce stress. What happens if we increase dopamine, we increase confidence, we increase motivation, alertness. So sort of like merging all of that, and just really just taking control of our almost like our personality, in a sense.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I think it’s really important to say that with the demographic that you work with, you have a tighter control in what you could implement and what kind of response you can get versus, you know, the people that we work with, there’s too many confounding variables where we aren’t controlling for just implement this and see the result because they’re, I mean, everyone has those confounding variables. But when we’re talking about blood sugar, balance, inflammation, already sympathetic wind-up, microbial overgrowth circadian breakdown, I mean, all of these things have to be taken into consideration with your demographic, too, would that be correct?   Lucas Aoun: Or for sure, and that’s where I say like nootropics can be very, very powerful, and they can be life-changing. But really, they’re just the icing on the cake. It’s like if you’ve already got your foundations, right, like you’re looking after your exercise, and you’re addressing sleep and diet, and avoiding toxins, things like that. You’ve built yourself to a point where your foundation is strong. But now you’re in a different territory, you like you’ve been there for three years, you’ve been yourself to a point. Now you just want to go that extra 10 to 20%. And be just dominating. Almost like yeah, just really just smashing law.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So let’s get into that. So cosmetic neurology, what give us like, one on one. So how, as a, you know, clinician, or a biohacker, or just supporting one of your clients, how you would go about, you know, implementing your strategies.   Lucas Aoun: So the first thing I would do is get the person to ask, ask themselves, like, what their goal is, like, what are they trying to achieve? Where are they trying to perform, and let’s say, for example, they want to hijack their motivation network? So like, they want to take control of their motivation, drive, alertness, that sort of aspect of cognition, which is a very common one. By the way, a lot of people do struggle with that motivation, alertness, they procrastinate, they just can’t get shit done. And that seems to be a common theme amongst a lot of people. And so when we look at integrating cosmetic neurology here, we need to first address the primary neurotransmitter that governs those aspects of cognition. We dopamine, noradrenaline, adrenaline, acetylcholine, and histamine. So if we increase the synthesis of these neurotransmitters, there’s a good chance it will help your brain perform that task in the best way possible. So there are a range of novel, dopamine boosting compounds, which I’ll be happy to explore if you want me to dive deeper with some of those novel compounds.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no. I’m, I’m all ears. I like the concept of when I’m working with clients that are exhausted and burnt out. They don’t have motivation. They don’t have the drive, they potentially have ruminating thoughts, they’re waking up like a fire alarm is getting them at, you know, 3 am, and someone’s beating a drum right by their head and they wake up in a stupor and the heart rates elevated. So yeah, take us through what, beyond the foundational stuff and asking them what their goals are, and then figuring out what the main transmitters are that are responsible for the hijacking. I love your terms. Awesome. So hijacking your motivation system. You know, so what do you go? What do you do about the path that you set once you’ve hijacked the cockpit?   Lucas Aoun: Yep, so once we’ve hijacked the motivation network of the brain. First, we need to understand now what can we implement, that’s going to lead to a sustained increase in that neurotransmitter. In this case, it’s dopamine. Instead of using the precursor compounds, which you know, they do work up until a point like tyrosine, the amino acids, and phenylalanine and B six and B five and Bone. Instead, we can use something known as bro maintained bro. maintained is like one of the world’s first synthetic adaptogens ever developed. And it’s used to treat neurasthenia, which is just like general weakness and fatigue of the body and mind. And Originally, it was sort of deployed for the Russian military and Soviet cosmonauts to combat stress, it was seen as an anti-stress, anti-fatigue agent. And, of course, when I did my research, I was digging deeper into the clinical studies. And I saw that there was a robust improvement in many aspects of vigor, vitality, and fatigue. And the best part about it was that there were no signs of tolerance, withdrawal, or sensitization. That was the key point. I’m like, Well if we can find a compound, anything like caffeine can do that. But the signs of tolerance, there’s signs of withdrawal, it’s depleting to the, to the adrenals, it’s depleting to dopamine long term, whereas Berman sign hijacks that enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase, the enzyme that converts the tyrosine from our foods into L dopa, and then dopamine it actually, up-regulates that enzyme so that we’re getting and that’s the rate-limiting enzyme that produces dopamine. So if we’re getting a sustained upregulation in that enzyme, we’re leading to a sustained increase in dopamine. And we see that with you know, I see that with clients I’ve seen that with athletes it’s, unfortunately, it’s now banned by water because it’s so effective. But yeah, bro maintains a novel nootropic that does take a lot of the requirements to improve motivation drive and yeah, General figure   Dr. Joel Rosen: so how do you spell it because that you know Bromo attain, I honestly haven’t heard of it myself. So I always like to do these podcasts because like, yeah, that’s a new one for me. So yeah,   Lucas Aoun: it’s funny because it’s got to my bro maintained the site the actual Russian-like name is Allah Destin, la da sta t n. And it’s been around for I think, 40 years or so. And yeah, as I said, I was just developed to traits, neurasthenia, which, and general weakness of the body and debilitation and recovering from severe sickness. So, it’s not a prescription drug it was at its time, but it’s now available for public use as a supplement. It’s sort of in a gray area with some of these nootropics and supplements. It’s sort of in a gray area. But yeah, I mean by stuff like preliminary studies and how people respond to the compound, it does seem to be a viable, just one of our many tools in our toolkit to improve so One’s quality of life.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I think that’s key is a tool in the toolkit, right? Because you’re not going to use the hammer for when you need to do a screwdriver or you’re not going to do a hammer when you need the saw. And I think that’s where we exhaust the utility of nutrients. So what would be your recommendation, okay, someone is lacking motivation, and drive and focus and not getting stuff done. How would you implement the dosing strategy for that?   Lucas Aoun: Sure. So what I found was actually, less is more with this particular nootropic. And that is because not only does it increase dopamine, but it also inhibits GABA transaminase, which is the enzyme that degrades GABA. So most people, they’re silly, they think more is better, you know that I see this all the time with like nootropics. If a little is good, more must be better. That’s not true. And it particularly shines with burn maintenance. So because it inhibits that GABA transaminase enzyme, we’re going to increase GABA tone as well. So we’re going to get like that a zeolitic effect as well. But we don’t want that to be overpowering. Because too much Gabba can be too calming and sedating and relaxing. So a particular dosage protocol that works well for most people, is about 25 milligrams orally, first thing in the morning because it has a very long half-life. And at its peak serum concentration is like four to six hours after dosing. So it doesn’t quote-unquote, like a kick in, well, you don’t feel the alertness and focus, immediately, it’s more of a delayed effect. And as with all supplements, all nootropics, and all compounds, this is just like every other one, it needs to be cycled. It’s not something you’d want to take daily, every day, you might want to save it for the days that you want to work hard, or you’ve got a lot of public speaking to do. So like five days on two days off would be like a viable strategy. It’s not medical advice, just a heads up.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, whenever that should be a disclaimer anyways, is that we are giving nutritional advice to improve function. And obviously, we’re allowed to do that under the FDA as food to improve function. But this is not medical advice or prescriptions for people to go out and say this is what the doctor said. So as far as So, okay, so, five days on potentially off when you’re wanting to elicit an effect for motivation and getting stuff done. Do you now have seen this with a lot of your clients or a lot of people you work with or are just more research on your own?   Lucas Aoun: Um, I have worked with some, like, executives and like entrepreneurs that need support, personally, but really, it’s all on my blog, the feedback has been mostly through my YouTube videos, I did you know, a comprehensive video breaking down, bro maintained to explain how it works, its pharmacology pharmacokinetics, things like that. And really, the feedback has been across the board. You know, if you go on various forums and things, I would say 80% of people respond quite well to this compound. There is, you know, it would be irresponsible for me to just explore the benefits and not explore some of the downsides and side effects. I will also present that because that’s important. So, one of the drawbacks that people will discuss and complain about is one particular rat study that says that it may increase amyloid plaque in the brain, but if you look closely, the dosages that they use were ridiculously high, and it’s unlikely to occur in humans. And even if it does slightly increase amyloid plaque, if you compare like exposure to the toxins in our environment versus this like big going outside and smelling an exhaust fume is more likely to trigger amyloid plaque than a compound that’s designed to be neuroprotective, you know, so, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen:  No, absolutely. So okay, so as far as other cosmetic neurology and novel nootropics what other things you got in your bag of tricks over there?    Lucas Aoun: Um, so one lit one compound that I liked that’s neuroprotective, but then also relevant to like an adrenal fatigue picture, which I think would be cool to explore is a particular seaweed called Ecklonia Kava it’s a brown algae seaweed that’s got I mean, I think the Japanese spent over $30 million researching this particular seaweed. And it’s so it’s not so fringe and underground, or actually, it is its underwater underground. But, uh, Colonia Kava is, I think, an absolute powerhouse in terms of its antioxidant capacity. It completely obliterates vitamin C, Vitamin E from its antioxidant perspective, and also increases alpha waves in the brain, similar to L theanine, which is found in green tea. So it gives you that calm, relaxing feeling. It also lowers cortisol, it improves acetylcholine production, so most people noticed much more vivid dreams and better memory performance when they use Ecklonia Cava. And it has a potent anti-anxiety action as well. And it does this yet again, in a very sustainable way. It increases the ability of GABA to bind to its receptor. So to gather positive allosteric modulators. So opens up the gab receptor makes it more receptive to your body’s own GABA, which is great. Like, we want something that’s going to work with the body and not rob the body. So the qualia cover shines as you’ve seen. I haven’t done a video on it yet. I haven’t done I haven’t spoken about a much just on a few podcasts, because it’s um, I will be soon. But it’s I think it’s a really powerful tool yet again, that we can utilize.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I see a lot of clients that have had major challenges with the benzodiazepines and the Kilonzo pans and stuff like that, where they were on it for so long, Lucas. And now it’s created a lot of plasticity and just feedback issues and major anxiety concerns. So I don’t know, have you seen any research on that for helping people through withdrawals or just kind of re-modulating? Because that would be helpful for some of the people I’m working with?   Lucas Aoun: For sure. So that’s something I do cover in the nootropics course is one element of that, which is like, how do we upregulate the GABA receptors that have been so heavily downregulated from benzos and Valium and compounds, which is again, millions of people struggling with this problem. And so they’re either in withdrawal, they need volume, benzos to sleep, and all without it, they’re a mess like they’re anxious and life is extremely difficult. So there is another compound, the Konya carb can help with that GABA tone. Another one that works quite well to upregulate GABA receptors is one called homo taurine. So pretty, pretty wild, wacky name. It’s not. It’s got nothing to do with sexuality at all, but they named it homo taurine. And basically, this. This is found in a different type of seaweed. And it’s used to. So basically it’s a GABA B antagonist. So it blocks the GABA receptor. So literally, when you take the compound, it will put you almost put you into a state of benzo withdrawal. So it’s literally like you’re taking something to feel worse. But then it has a rebound effect the next day where you get that sustained upregulation. So it’s almost like, and this is a quote I haven’t used on any podcast. Yeah, but anti endocrinology, it’s like anti, it’s anti endocrinology, you’re doing the opposite of what you want first, to then read down and come back up to get that response that you’re looking for.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, I think some medications work that way too, though. No, I mean, in terms of Adderall and stimulants, where if someone’s already producing too much of that they give more to inhibit the production. Is it along the same lines?   Lucas Aoun: Yes, sort of. I think that there. Yeah, that’s like it’s almost like a double-double, a double-double, a double positive to make a negative, or a double negative to make a positive. Yeah, yeah, you’re right. Definitely.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Well, so it’s happened adaptogenic at the end of the day, right? I mean, if you’re resetting the receptors, and you’re kind of like doing the fuse breaker, right, like you’re, you know, when you’re your trip a fuse, and you need to reset it and turn it on and turn off and I think that the way my mind works, Lucas in terms of, that’s probably the best I’d be concerned. With some of the clients that I’ve seen, unfortunately for 10 years or longer, when it shows that that shouldn’t be used more than so many days, I mean, I don’t know what happens there, but I’d be concerned about having them go through more withdrawal because they’re already going through withdrawal. But if you know, what do you what’s your thought on that?   Lucas Aoun: In that scenario, I wouldn’t. I wouldn’t veer towards something as intense as Homer taurine, but instead, I’d use something like BPC 157. We’ve seen some good I’m sure you’ve heard about VPC 157. That there I mean that there has this countless reports online of people recovering from benzo withdrawal using BPC seems to have a very stabilizing and rebalancing effect on the brain. It does have some degree of affinity towards the GABA network. But the thing is we just don’t know how BPC 157 works. But it just seems to help to recalibrate the brain and usually with my endeavors if I’ve because I like to experiment and a lot of the time, if I’ve accidentally set myself down the wrong path as in like, I’m too anxious and I’m feel bad myself. Oftentimes, I’ll resort to BBC just to correct things. And then I’m back to back to good again like I’m just back online. But yeah, be between BBC 157. There’s another, I think taurine by itself can do quite a good job. And again, it’s sustainable. It’s non-toxic, you know, within, even at higher doses. It has other pleiotropic effects beyond just the brain. And it does just do a pretty good job at reducing anxiety for a lot of people as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, it’s interesting, as you say that because I study a lot of functional genomics. And I think about that whole transsulfuration pathway, where we’re looking at ultimately taking home another homo named cysteine. And I guess it’s just one taurine molecule or one cysteine molecule, and they call it home, homocysteine or whatever. But anyway, what they do is there’s a lot of Plinko chips that can go down the wrong pathway, depending on if there’s inflammation if there are enzymes that are inhibited because of heavy metals, and so forth, but you see sulfites and sulfates and gluten ion and taurine. They all go down those pathways and my hunches, maybe you can confirm this or not, that when you do have those inflammatory mediators signaling things down the wrong pathway, perhaps BBC gets that more modulated. But not only that, but when it does go down the wrong pathways, it ends up robbing Peter to pay Paul and in this case, we see a lot of people that are heavily dosed with sulfites. So they have sulfite intolerances, their hormones fall, they’re not making taurine brain function go down. And then also they’re not making gluten ion. So they’re not reducing the inflammation and reducing stress and signaling their detox pathways. Have you as does that make sense to you at all? or?    Lucas Aoun: Yeah, it made sense to me. I just love how you broke that down. You’re bridging every single gap there and stating how it’s having a ripple effect all downstream. I was just, I was just picturing it in my head. I’m young, like going down all the different pathways, which is great. I think BBC. Yeah, I mean, it’s probably affecting somewhere down the line. is it helping with liver function because we know that BBC 157 has also been used to reverse pan ibuprofen or Tylenol toxicity? It’s been shown to repair the damage to the liver. So perhaps it’s having some degree of detoxification property. But really like yeah, these compounds like BPC one by seven. There are so many I mean, I could, I could just explore so many like from the GABA network. There’s another one from traditional Chinese medicine, which I love to explore a lot of Chinese medicinal herbs as well. In my spare time, I go down to this place called China books and I read them the Chinese, their traditional Chinese medicinal textbooks and I just love how they view the body from like, you know, ci and energy and stuff. But there’s a cool compound from Chinese medicine from the herb, gastro dia. It’s called gastrin. Day one there has been shown that’s being used in like autism, and it’s And Asperger’s to help with tics and things like that. Guest gastrin I think life extension they used to stop it, they don’t anymore. that there has been shown to upregulate GABA production by like 20 to 30%. So that’s a versatile he had yet again, another strategy to utilize.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s always interesting to talk to. And I say this with pure love, like your fellow geek and talk to them about like science and you know, mixing your chocolate with my peanut butter and coming with you know, these different things. And you know, when I think about this, I think about like one of the major inhibitors to all gene snips is inflammation is oxidative stress. hydroxyl radicals are just superoxides, all of these byproducts of the environment, causing your smoke to come out of your chimney if you will. And ultimately, that will make something like BPC that much better, but it would also make something like the nootropic less in, in helpful because you haven’t necessarily dialed down the basics and the fundamentals in way of inflammation. After all, you’re expecting that nootropic to be a magic wand, right? So does that happen a lot in that world? I am ignorant in that world. Does that happen a lot where maybe some of these biohackers have put the cart before the horse, and they haven’t realized that they need to get healthy before these can have the nootropic benefit that does that happen a lot?   Lucas Aoun: Oh, for sure. And it’s funny, you mentioned that because my next video is talking about modafinil. The drawbacks, it’s a very commonly abused anti narcolepsy drug so it increases wakefulness and alertness. But that’s a perfect example, though use modafinil in place of high-quality sleep, then three weeks down the line, when there’s run out of modafinil, or they take a break, they are going to feel horrendous, they’re going to feel extremely depleted, exhausted and burnt out. And that’s a common mistake. You know, there’s a lot of people that fall into that trap when they enter into the nootropic space. And, you know, when I started about seven years ago, like exploring this, uh, you know, I ran into that mistake myself. So really, the best way to infuse these compounds in nootropics is to work with your already healthy baseline lifestyle. And, like, we could talk for hours about the benefits of sleep. And I know you’ve spoken about it quite a lot across your channels. But I think yeah, I think the future lies in, how can we get the deepest and restful sleep possible, using not only our blue blockers and temperature and environment and foods, but also which nootropics can facilitate improvements in REM sleep, which nootropics can facilitate improvements in deep sleep and produce wakening awakenings and things like that. I think that’s a really exciting area.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. And I almost think about it as you can put it into a quadrant or just threes, where I would say, quadrant where you have the very, very unhealthy. And then you have the on the far end, the very, very healthy. And then in the middle, you have the not so unhealthy, and the not so healthy, if we can divide it into four quadrants. And then each one of those quadrants would a have different out. Go outputs or results that you’d be looking for that would differ, right, and then at the same time, all of them would have a certain Goldilocks zone of not too little, not too much. And I think that’s I don’t, that would be a really good idea for understanding like because I know with someone with the challenges that I have, I would love to give them a magic wand and give them this amazing product and have that undo years of stress and buildup of toxins and chemicals. But it’s not. And ultimately I say okay, well we could layer that in, we want to re-modulate your brain, we want to kind of get you to be less inflamed and ruminating. But we’re not talking about the guy over here that’s super healthy and is going to get the most designer cosmetic effect out of it. Can you want to speak a little bit about that?   Lucas Aoun: Yeah. Well, I think Yeah, what you’re touching on there is paramount. So it’s almost like you got to earn the right to use it. It’s like, you got to do the work. You got to do the work with the foundations first. And then you’ve earned the right the privilege. It’s almost Like something to look forward to. It’s like, if you’ve done the grunt work, the groundwork and you’ve honed in, you nailed your diet and like you’re on point with things like that, then perhaps your incentive and motivation will be, Oh, I know that I’m gonna get to 80% here, just with all of these things alone, and then the icing on the cake will be something like, you know, bromance pain or other things like that, that can help just improve what you’ve already built upon it. And the thing is, a lot of these nootropics require you to have zero nutrient deficiencies. They require, you know, healthy digestion, they require healthy detoxification, they require sufficient hydration exercise to work properly. So really, they’re going to be losing money by purchasing a nootropic at the wrong point in that phase, because if they’re going to deploy it at the wrong time, they’re not going to get the most bang for the buck. So I think yeah, definitely a good point.    Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And you know, taking that one step further, as well, we do this, sometimes patients will ask, Well, how do I know if I’m getting better? And I can say objectively, like, you’d look at test one, and it shows you have X amount and text to shows you, more or less which direction you want. That’s one way. Another way would be you tell me, Mrs. Jones, like you remember, like, you weren’t sleeping before? Now you are and some people get amnesia about that, right? They forget, like, Oh, my gosh, all right, I remember when it was so bad. So you kind of have to remember that. But what I was gonna say sometimes Lucas is with the application of what you just mentioned, some supplements, I love the idea, you have to earn the right for it to be effective for you. Some people I’ll put on supplements and like, oh, I’ve done that before. And it didn’t work. And I’ll say, Well, did you do it with this, this, this, this and this? And that? Like, no, I’m like, well, then you haven’t done it before. And actually, this is what I want to show you is, is that let’s not do it, let’s do this, this, this and this, but we were going to do with it, we’ll implement that. And then one of our benchmarks for improvement will be when you bring that back supplement back in, it’s not going to be it didn’t work for me or it made me worse, it’s going to be oh my gosh, I felt like it made me better, or I noticed the improvement. And that’s what I tell people is that’s it not only a great sign of you improving, but it’s also a fact that the reality is is that you weren’t ready for it before. And you don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and cross it off. You’re never gonna do that again, list because you just weren’t ready for it. I think that’s a huge deep rabbit hole, we went down to a to the What do you think about that?   Lucas Aoun: Oh. Like I was just thinking now like, how many times I’ve said to myself, I’m going to revisit this in six months, I’m going to come back to this in six months. Because again, like, and even the way that you describe that where it’s almost like we are molding the body, we’re the body is malleable like we can fixate and change it in a way to then receive the input, sorry, the external compound in different ways. So it’s like, yeah, I think, um, and even the point they’re on, you may or may not have been ready at the time. But I’ll add one to that is that even the actual quality of the product, or perhaps the brand, or the way that the Herbes extracted, can have completely different effects, for example, with a classic adaptogen Rhodiola, which, you know, spent years researching and diving into what it does in the brain and things like that. When we look at Rhodiola, it’s broken down into various constituents, the ones salidroside are one of them. And Rosamond is another one that people will talk about. Now. What’s key to understand is that this Rhodiola that was manufactured by this company will have completely different effects from this Rhodiola manufactured by this other company. And that may be due to how they did the extraction, you know, was alcohol-based ethanol, ethanol, water, joule, whatever, that there is going to have a significant effect on how that person responds. And I’ve tried this with I went through various shoots is another herb that I love. And I went through like six different types. And only one of them had a profound increasing effect on energy and things like that. So I think one point to stress is that not only does our biochemistry matter, but the individual makeup of the herb matters that the herb itself has energy. And so how has the energy customized or put together in a way that suits your body like, is it? Because, you know, you might hear jack from down the road, say I tried Rhodiola it didn’t work. Or it made me too stimulated. Whereas john said that Rhodiola was calming, what are you talking about? Like, it was relaxing? You know, that’s where it comes down to that intricacy and, you know, extraction quality and things like that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that’s where you have to be the astute clinician to know like, okay, like, Was it bad? Or was it bad? Or did we just, we didn’t do enough of a microdose, because I find that’s the other thing too, is, is that all of a lot of very sensitive people, we look at them as their mast cell activated in the least little bit of fairy dust, we’ll put them you know, like, over the top. And so they’ll tell me like a lot of the times like, it was good the first time, but then after that, it wasn’t it was like, Well, what why did you take the second time? You were feeling good, right? Like, well, I was told I need to do it every day? Well, no, like, you want to think of it as riding a wave. Did you catch a wave? Why are you coming off of the wave that you’re already on? You don’t need to get greedy, you’re on a wave right now you feel better than you did. That’s one strategy. But the other strategy is, you took too much, and you need to microdose that doesn’t throw the baby out with the bathwater in that regard, especially if we’ve done a good workup. We’ve looked at the research, we know what’s going on specifically with your body. And this has indicated that makes sense?   Lucas Aoun: Oh, for sure. Yeah, that’s it’s a brilliant concept. And we could, it would be fun too, it’d be fun to just generally like sit down with a range of practitioners to see how they go about handling that or like what they do in that situation. And something there that you mentioned, like with the micro-dosing aspects, in terms of like, I was having a look at different dosing protocols, not just for nootropics, but just in general for supplements. And I’m thinking, alright, so we can do every day, we can do every second day, we can do like twice a week, we can do pulse Otile dosing, it does depend on and I’ve even got supplements that I’ll use once a month, I’ve got things that I’ll use once every two weeks, as like a reset or like this so many different ways you can go about dosage protocols like I’ve got really strict criteria, personally, just myself, for when I’ll use Metformin, not that I need Metformin. But if I want to binge and have, you know, go out and have some sweeten, or if I have a super late night, and I’m up till 2:30 am, which I know I wasn’t supposed to do, and I know it’s going to hurt my biology. Well, that’s maybe when I do bring in something heavy hitting like Metformin to offset the deleterious effects of the way I live, you know, so, time and place.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no. I mean, that’s part two, because you read my mind because I was gonna ask you about the biohacking with NPK, and Metformin, and, you know, getting into a toffee G and getting into mtorr. Because I’m going down that pathway right now, just for your interest is I like the concept of mtorr, which is growth and building and regenerating and building. And then nerf to with antioxidants coming in and modulating that and kind of like, almost like, you know what it is, it’s like, in our backyard, we have automatic sprinklers. And it wakes me up in the morning. But I know like once it’s past the zone in the backyard, it’s going to the zone in the front and then it’s going to the zone in the side. And I think we have to think about carrying on from what we just talked about is the Zen in the art of supplementation, right because we are so paradigm to the three squares three times a day, you know, like however, we do it till the cows come home like hey Lucas, this is a forever like ground in a granite-like death sentence for the rest of your life to take this supplement. When in fact, you said it succinctly earlier on like, my strategy is okay, understanding what the goal is, right, what the goal is, but also knowing like what are your stressors daily? What’s your physiology, and how can we modulate the knowledge that you need to harness that and use it when you need to and not use it when you don’t? So that analogy of when the sprinkler system goes on. You have distinct mtorr days where you’re thinking about protein methylation, all the carbohydrates, just growing strength training, then you go into nerf two and what modulates the balance between the two and you start doing more sulforaphane stuff and glycine and things that sort of support that transsulfuration pathway. And then you go into a toffee G and stimulate NPK Have you looked into that at all as well yourself?   Lucas Aoun: Oh, for sure. I was just literally I have a joke with one of my, one of my naturopathic buddies. We, like, we just know, because we’re on the same wavelength we just joke about, like, hey, Dawn today, man, and he’s like, yeah, just having one of those abs case or today’s you know,   Dr. Joel Rosen: like, right. Yeah. Yeah. And you know what the thing is, is like, I think bodybuilders because I come from that background to some extent in terms of, they were some of the not the original biohackers, but like, say the 1980 biohackers, right, where they understood about just cyclic training.   Lucas Aoun: I think body Yeah, I’ve got a lot of like nerdy bodybuilder friends that are like, really, really well versed in terms of like, understanding hormones, and understanding pharmacology as well, because they’re using such powerful performance-enhancing drugs, they need to be very switched on with how to use them. And so in doing so they have to learn biology first to then use them. Yeah, I think you can take a lot from them. And unfortunately, they get like a really bad rap. Like a lot. A lot of them in general, like, although I must say, majority of them do have that very abusive mindset, which does turn me off. And not. It’s just I think it’s really, I think it’s frowned upon. And I think it should be because they, a lot of them can be very abusive, and more is more like, they just want more and more and more. So I think that and you’re never happy if I’m making some bold statements, but as bodybuilders will never be happy because they’re always seeking, you know, progression and the look in the mirror and there was wanting more and more and more. So that mentality is just depleting them over time.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, it’s the same thing that happens at the cellular level, you need to have a Cinderella a Goldilocks zone, where you’re not doing too much, you’re not doing too little, the same thing happens at the 30,000 views, foot level like you just can’t get greedy with things. I look at that in terms of sort of the same concept when you are exercising, and you are needing to balance your rest days. And you got to remember, I mean, at the end of the day, this is to make your life better, I got trapped in that in terms it’s no longer the means it becomes the ends. And that’s not a fun life to live if you’re doing something for the ends of it and not the means for it to get you somewhere. That’s where you’ve lost sight of why does that makes sense?   Lucas Aoun: Oh, for sure. Yeah.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, so Well listen, I mean, I want to save a part two because I want to get into the hole and PK and what that means in terms of helping your body recycle its cells and go into fasting sort of amendment King things. I’d be interested to know your take on that and blood sugar, but that’s a whole other podcast. So as far as I always like to ask and respectful for your time. We went through some holes we weren’t expecting at the very beginning. But what would you tell other people who maybe are what would you tell maybe the younger Lucas now that you know what you know, in terms of nootropics and cosmetic neurology and balance in life and you know, the tools of the trade that you know, now that that bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Lucas didn’t know about?   Lucas Aoun: Well, actually, one thing would be something that I’ve probably discovered at the start of lockdown and that is just how much of an impact being around your friends and being around a social circle can have on my quality of life just because at the start I undervalued that and I thought that we can hijack it again, this is just me thinking that I could hijack my well being with cosmetic neurology and outperform the environment just myself. But now I’m understanding like, what I felt my happy my happiest and most content and just generally alive when I’m with people that I’m I feel connected to and are on the same wavelength. Not the same 5g wavelength with the same wavelength. Yeah, just looking back. If I were to tell myself just don’t underestimate the power of your social environment. That’s probably the biggest one for me.    Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, that’s where the term buzzkill comes into play right number one and number two is I think from the Beatles quoted it the best is they get high with little help with their friends, right? I mean, if you have the wrong set of friends You can have a bad no tropic trip. And that goes into also what you said earlier in terms of, it’s just not how the impact it’s going to have on you. But it’s also how it’s processed and it’s utilized. But it’s also what’s your mindset going into it? And what’s your you know, what’s your, your circumstances? And what kind of stressors are you trying to get away from and how inflamed and yada yada, yada? So, anyways, listen, I enjoyed you being here today. Learn certainly a lot. I’d love to have you back for part two if that’s possible. And but how do our listeners find out more about you, Lucas, and find out where you are online and what you do, and the courses you offer?   Lucas Aoun: Yeah, awesome. I’d be more than happy to come back on for part two. A lot of topics we, you know, could talk for hours about, but for those listening in, they can find me on YouTube, if they search, boost your biology on YouTube. And also Instagram, can search by brand, ergogenic, underscore health got some amazing free content there. And then I’ve also got my website ergogenic dot health, got some cool products and got some courses as well. I’ve got a very comprehensive cosmetic neurology course on nootropics. Course. So guys, if you like that whole concept and you want to learn more, there’s a whole course their people can dive into.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. All right, well, good. What’s and then what’s next for you? What’s the lesson? I didn’t tell the readers because I thought this was mighty Lee impressive as well as you’re doing all of this when you’re not even just graduated yet. Is that correct?   Lucas Aoun: Yeah. This Thursday is my final clinic session. So I’ll be graduating in like three weeks. So congratulations.   Dr. Joel Rosen: But I think that’s a testament to you to say, Hey, I already know what I want. And I’m just learning and doing at the same time, which is awesome, which is great. Yeah, so awesome. Okay, well, listen, I appreciate your time. And I wish you future success. And I will be calling on you again, Lucas to do part two, and nothing but success for you in the future.   Lucas Aoun: Awesome. Thanks for having me, Joe.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Thanks. Thanks, buddy.   To check out Lucas and his education material, click here The post Biohacking Adrenal Fatigue with Lucas Aoun appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And today I’m joined by Dr. Tabitha barber who’s devoted her life to giving women a voice and choice when it comes to their health and well-being. As a young girl. She struggled with self-esteem and identity issues. she dealt with peer pressure and survived the ridicule and stigma of becoming a teenage mother. As she shared in her first published book titled from white trash to white coat the birth of Katherine’s purpose, those events led Tabitha to find her purpose in life. With perseverance and grace, she was able to redirect her path in life and become a successful physician. Dr. Tabitha Barbara is triple board-certified in obstructive abstract tics, and gynecology, menopause, and functional medicine. She cares for a woman, one on women one on one in her clinic as a functional gynecologist, and is the creator of the host and host of the functional gynecologist Podcast, where she shares her wisdom and knowledge with women everywhere to reclaim their health. She’s a keynote speaker, clinical instructor, mentor, medical director, wife, mom, and even grandma. By incorporating functional medicine into her woman’s health practice, she is able to provide women with the tools they need to optimize their health and happiness, which in turn, allows those women to pursue or pursue their purpose in life. Dr. Tabitha, that’s quite an intro. Welcome to our podcast today.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Thank you so much for having me. I’m really excited about this conversation.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, for sure. We were talking a little bit about what we wanted to talk about earlier before we started. And we want to talk about stress and the role that that plays on hormones and women’s health, health, and imbalances and obviously not feeling great. So you have your own story, though. So and we just kind of referred to that. But what made you want to get into that area of medicine?   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Yes. So you know, I come from this long winding path of becoming an OB-GYN because of kind of the trauma I went through having my daughter as a 17-year-old girl, and things were done to me, there weren’t conversations, there was no informed consent, there were no choices. And it left me feeling really unsettled. And I just felt like this deep desire to help women have a voice and a choice in their health, in, you know, their health care.  And so I got my crap together, I went back, I got my GED, and I went to a community college, I wasn’t really sure what I was gonna do. But I knew that I needed to do something related to women’s health. My mother-in-law at the time was in nursing school. So I went into nursing. And I was not a good student growing up. So I didn’t do well in school. You know, I lived in the principal’s office and in detention, and I barely passed. And when I got into the community college, I was excited. And I had, you know, a reason to be there.  And I was getting four points. And I was like, why am I doing so? well in school? Why is this so easy for me now, and it’s because I cared and I was paying attention. I was doing the work. And, you know, it wasn’t that I was dumb growing up, I just wasn’t interested in school. And so all of a sudden, I realized, like, hey, maybe I can do bigger things. And I said to one of my professors, I would love to be the doctor, instead of the nurse, I would love to be the one making the decisions and helping women with their choices, and not just carrying out orders. And he looked at me and he said, you can totally be a doctor.  And now it was a very defining moment for me, right? Like, what I can be a doctor seriously. And he completely believed in me, and that changed the whole trajectory of my life. And so, from that moment, I was like, wow, I’m gonna be a doctor and I didn’t let anything stop me. So, unfortunately, becoming a doctor is one of the worst possible things you can ever do for your health. It’s extremely hypocritical, how we work 120 hours a week we work sleep-deprived, we live on the garbage and junk food we eat while we’re walking to our next patient or to the or, you know, we don’t take care of ourselves because we are committed to taking care of everyone else. And so I spent the next decade destroying myself for my patients and that taught me a much bigger lesson in the end. Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, we have a lot of common in that story. And thank you for sharing it, you have to have a little bit of humility to be vulnerable and explain that. And the same thing for me, I didn’t realize that I wasn’t as smart as I knew I could be until I started caring. And I always say, like, you kind of either go out of your way to do well, or you go out of your way to do poorly. And I think that’s resonating with a lot of things in health.  I mean, you go out of your way to be unhealthy, or you go out of your way to be and when I say I went out of my way, I missed classes because they were early. And when you’re 18, and 19, away from home for the first time, and there’s no one to tell you to go to bed, and you’re going to the pubs and the class, whatever, right? I mean, I went out of my way to miss those classes, I went out of my way to not get the notes and study the notes, and I went out of my way to do poorly.  So that’s an amazing lesson that you have. And then the other lesson was, as far as having someone else believe in you, and have that resonate and really hit home and make you realize that you’re capable of doing things. I guess this isn’t really what I was going to head towards.  But how much does that now in terms of the mindset and believing in yourself and going out of your way to do things that are proactive versus going out of your way to not do those things? How much does that impact what you teach you’re doing in your clinic and what you teach with your courses and what you resonate with your, with your just your mission?   Dr. Tabatha Barber: It totally aligns with all of it. And I think of it often because I had to make a huge pivot when, you know, being a traditional doctor was destroying my health, I was so sleep-deprived. And I was you know, doing surgery without sleep, catching babies all night, seeing patients every 15 minutes, not really helping them, you know, just getting them through the door and making them feel okay until their next appointment, but I wasn’t creating health wasn’t doing what I felt like I was put on this earth to do.  And you know, it came to a head in a few different ways. My periods got super heavy, you know, all of a sudden, I couldn’t manage my own periods as a gynecologist. How embarrassing is that, you know, the two tools that I have pills and surgery weren’t cutting it. And so I was dealing with that issue. And then I was also dealing with chronic back pain and a herniated ruptured disc. And so I went down the surgery path I had surgery, it didn’t heal me. And what happened was, I went back after my six-week recovery, I was on call and I re-injured my back and I said, something has got to change, I have to pivot big time. And that’s when I realized I can do whatever I want.  When I set my mind to it and you, you have to take control of your life, you have to make those hard decisions. I gave up my cushy salary job with my 401k and my health insurance, and my 1000s of patients who absolutely adored me being their obstetrician because I needed to save myself and I needed to serve my patients in a way that actually brought them back to health. And so I left that job and it was scary. But you have to do the hard stuff in life. You have to look fear in the face and just say, I know that this is gonna work out and I’m gonna do it. And honestly, what it came down to was my life was a ball of stress. Dr. Joel like I was living, maxed out, adrenal glands pumping 24 seven like I was living on that cortisol and adrenaline. You know, I wasn’t living on sleep running nutritious food, my relationships were suffering like everything was going downhill.  And I needed to get control of it, I needed to set boundaries, I needed to take back my choices for my life and stop letting life just take control of me. And so it was a big shift. And that was about two years ago. And it has been, you know, transformative. It’s been amazing. I’m now spending time with my patients, right? We sit down for an hour, hour, and a half and I help guide them back to the health that they should be and I help get their bodies back into balance. It’s not like here’s another pill. Let’s sign you up for surgery and get rid of the symptom.  You know, we’ve masked the symptom in conventional medicine because that we think that’s how we treat patients but all we’re doing is not getting to the root of the issue. And the issue is going to pop up somewhere else. It’s like whack a mole, right? You whack that malt comes up somewhere else. And we really need to get rid of the mole instead of just keep whacking it. Right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no awesome information. And I like the idea of what I teach a lot with people where my psychology background came into play was the incongruence see between your behavior and how you feel on the inside, they don’t match. And that’s called dissonance. So if I am helping other people be healthy, but I myself am not being healthy. That’s a dissonance. And that’s going to create some kind of turmoil.  So I can do one of two things, I can either just help people and help them be healthy, because I’m not healthy, and they are aligned now. Or I can then change my behavior so that I am also healthy, as well as what I do so that they’re congruent. And you did that. And I think it’s a big part of healing because you are getting away get rid of that internal stress, but at the same time, it’s not it’s not easy, right? It’s a vulnerable position to look yourself in the mirror instead of from the 30,000 view foot and understand your flaws, and harness that as a motivating factor to ultimately get yourself better. So kudos to you for doing that. So I’m curious to know from a conventional medicine point of view because the term Adrenal Fatigue is really controversial not so much.  I wouldn’t say it’s a controversial term, it’s a crappy term. And the name of my website is called the truth about adrenal fatigue, because, quite frankly, it goes so much deeper than the adrenal is not being fatigued and still outputting cortisol, and people like to replace that with the HPA axis because that gives better detail of what’s happening. But I even feel the HPA axis is not a suitable term either, because it’s mitochondrial-based fatigue, and there’s cell danger.  And there are changes that happened in the body and your immune system, your nervous system, your endocrine system, your respiratory system, all of your systems are functioning together and coordinating the response. And the HPA axis is just playing a role in that it’s not the main thing. So with that being said, What’s, what’s your take on Adrenal Fatigue if clients come to see you, and we’ll transition into female and hormonal imbalances, and so forth, but what’s your take on that Tabitha?   Dr. Tabatha Barber: So, I will tell you about six or seven years ago, I don’t remember when but I had a patient come into my office and say, I think I have adrenal fatigue, do you think that’s what’s wrong with me, and I had no idea what the heck she was talking about, I had never heard the term, you know, when you are conventional doctor, you’re in your little world, you don’t have time to, you know, look outside and read anything else or learn anything else. You’re just kind of in this bubble.  And I was really blown away by like, What is she talking about? Why does she know something that I have nothing I don’t know anything about. And so I started studying and I started learning. And I realized that a lot of my colleagues just shut it down. You know, that’s crap. We don’t, you know, that doesn’t exist. And they didn’t question it. And they didn’t want to learn anything new. And I think you have to be a lifelong learner. As soon as you think you know it all. You’re gonna fail. You’re patient, right? Like, there’s always new evidence coming out.  There are new theories and new ideas. And I’m sorry, but I completely think the adrenal glands are extremely important, especially in women’s health, they place so much off of your sex hormones and your insulin and blood sugar and your thyroid, they all ping back and forth and affect each other. You know, our systems are not compartmentalized, they’re not functioning in silos. They’re all connected and affect one another. And so, you know, I deal with estrogen dominance on a regular basis, like I see a day in and day out. I see women in their 40s who are professionals, they are crushing it in their job, they have children that they’re raising, they’re trying to keep their marriage happy and alive.  You know, they’re doing all this, all the things, they’re hanging out with their girlfriends having cocktails. They’re trying to exercise and look good and stay young and healthy. And when we do all of that stressful stuff all day long, we pump out the cortisol way more than we’re supposed to as a human being, to get us through to give us the energy to To make that happen, and what women don’t realize is every time you pump out the cortisol because you’re pissed off about some email you opened or your kid got in trouble at school, or you’re fighting with your husband, like, then your body has to make sugar from its liver and put that out in the bloodstream because it thinks it’s you’re gonna fight or run in this situation.  It’s just, you know, that’s how our bodies were created. And then insulin has to be pumped out from the pancreas to go handle that sugar and either uses it as energy or stored as fat. And all of a sudden, women are gaining belly fat, you know, it’s from the stress, this stress elevates your blood sugar and makes you store that as fat. It’s all related, you know, and then it steals your progesterone. progesterone is one of the main ingredients to make cortisol. And so every time you make cortisol inappropriately, you’re stealing the beautiful balancing progesterone that you need. And so estrogen starts to dominate, you start having heavy periods, PMS, headaches, you’re ripping your husband’s head off, because you’re so irritable, you have no fuse left, that is all being driven by your excess cortisol production.  And as soon as women realize that they need to get control of their cortisol production, they can shift everything that they’re feeling and everything that’s going on. So I don’t care what you call it. You know, Adrenal Fatigue is the extreme end version of that, where you pump out the cortisol, nonstop. And eventually, you get to the point where your body starts to protect you and say, we’re not doing that anymore. We’re done with you crying wolf, we’re not going to pump out the cortisol, and it pumps the brakes, and you don’t make cortisol, then you’re not wanting to get out of bed, you don’t want to exercise in the morning anymore.  You don’t want to go to work, you don’t even want to take care of your kids. And it’s a real thing. And I see it all day, every day. So I don’t care what medicine wants to call it. But it is real.   Dr. Joel Rosen: You know, it’s a breath of fresh air. And I’m sure we can have a podcast about how your colleagues receive you on that. But you know what the thing that’s very frustrating to me, because I’m from a traditional family, I call myself the black sheep holistic guy, I have a sister who’s a GP and my uncle’s a dermatologist and my cousin, first cousins, a trauma surgeon, and I’m holistic, you know, black sheep member of the family. And the thing that upsets me the most I would even say go as far as say pisses me off is the dogmatic approach of well, we don’t have time to learn.  And I do recognize when you become a physician, you spend a lot you, you trade in your health, like you said, to get through all those long hours. And it can be quite rewarding financially, but as far as you’re overworked, a lot of the times you’re incongruent, you have that dissonance yourself and you’re unhealthy, yet you’re making recommendations. But the thing that upsets me so much is the dogmatic approach like, no, that’s wrong, or it’s black or white, like either you have insufficiency or you don’t, and there’s no Shades of Grey.  And then to make matters worse, and rub salt into the wounds, it’s more of Well, you’re simply a symptom magnifier, you’re a difficult patient, you’re, you know, one of those types of clients that look on the internet, and you’re just difficult, and you know what I want you really out of my office as quick as I possibly can. And I’m going to refer you to therapeutic support for depression and anxiety. And to me, that’s the part that I feel is in violation of the Hippocratic oath, it is because you’re committing errors, whether it’s an omission, or, you know, commission, you’re making judgments with lack of knowledge, and that’s ignorance. And it’s very frustrating. So it’s a fresh breath of fresh, fresh to hear that from you.  So now you kind of opened up the rabbit hole of how stress impacts hormones, especially for estrogen dominance and the role that progesterone plays in the steroid cycle to produce cortisol. So why don’t we just sort of make that a really easy connection for a woman who’s maybe in her Peri menopausal years, or she’s even younger, and we’re seeing those signs a lot earlier? And they are having these hormonal imbalances.  Take us through the ABCs of what happens to those hormones and how they become imbalanced or what the typical trends look like when it’s secondary to all the spinning plates. You are met. of balancing stress and work and life and everything else in between.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Yeah, so normally, we should be having a nice, gradual rise of estrogen early in our cycle. And then we, you know, have a response from our brain, and our brain and ovaries keep talking back and forth all of the time. And our brain says, okay, the estrogen levels high enough, let’s ovulate an egg, Let’s release an egg. And the egg gets released in the area in the ovary where the egg was released, starts producing progesterone, and that goes up nicely in a gradual fashion and then comes back down along with estrogen.  And when they get low enough, then you bleed and have your period. And so it’s a nice balance between what the ovaries and brain are saying to each other every month. And you want to have a nice amount of estrogen and progesterone in a ratio together, and then you have testosterone in there, which helps with libido and helps with you wanting to have sex right before you ovulate so that you get pregnant. Like that’s how our bodies were created. They were designed for reproduction, right.  And so if you understand that cycle, you’ll understand how it can get imbalanced. And so first things first, if you’re doing things to prevent oscillation, which is you’re impacting your estrogen so that it’s either not being created enough early in the cycle, or it’s being created, you know, in a sharp up and down fashion, it’s not a smooth, nice progression, things like that, you’re not going to ovulate, and then you’re not going to make progesterone. And that’s gonna lead to either anovulation or irregular periods. So the things that mess that up are poor diet, you know, not managing your stress, like I said, that cortisol issue.  And if you get into this pattern where you’re consistently not ovulating, not making progesterone, excess estrogen drives a lot of bad things too much bad estrogen can feed breast tissue and uterine tissue and cause causes things to grow. That’s what estrogen does. And progesterone is kind of like the tamer it keeps it from growing too much and keeps it balanced. So you don’t want to be imbalanced. Too much estrogen earlier in life looks like endometriosis and fibroids, right? breast pain, fibrocystic breasts, all that stuff is growing because estrogen is feeding it and there’s no progesterone, as the weed killer to keep it tamed.  So that’s what you’re getting. And then you get later, maybe you start to or you stop ovulating consistently because you’re running out of eggs. That’s a natural progression into perimenopause, but you can get too much estrogen in that situation when you’re overstressed again. And that looks like heavy periods for women, you know, I was trained conventionally that you just get heavy periods in your 40s. And then you stop having them in your 50s. There wasn’t a lot of explanation as to why and how we can mitigate that you don’t have to have heavy periods in your 40s. That is a myth.  You do not have to have raging PMS, women were not designed to be miserable, you know, two to three weeks out of every month. That’s not how our bodies were designed. But that’s what society has trained us to believe they’ve trained us to believe that periods are supposed to be miserable. And you know, we should do whatever we can to get rid of them. That menopause turns you into this evil woman. And it just doesn’t have to be that way. Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, great, great answer. And I think about it because I do a lot of genetic testing and the same dogmatic approach from conventional train doctors, have you? Well, MTHFR. All you need to do is take methyl Foley and I want to poke my eyes out when I hear that because not only is it so reductionistic there are so many other what I really love about the genetic components for Tabitha is the fact that it helps us build the roadmap, and it helps us understand the epigenetic or all of the environmental things that could overlap with people that have these bigger genetic potentials. Whether they have them or not, is kind of irrelevant because you have these epigenetic inhibitors that can do so many things, damage To the body.  And as you look in deep detail with that, like you think about estrogen disruptors and plastics in the water sources, and how that will feed to everything that you were just talking about, and then how the communication of the body works to detail to deal with that, where it will upregulate Gluta Fi on, so you don’t have DNA damage, but then your gluten ion is being depleted because of the same things. And then next thing, you know, you’re not clearing out that estrogen effectively, and then it comes.  So there’s all of them but the genetic component is really important because it can give me some ideas as to why you’re going down this Plinko chip remember prices, right? where you would put the thing at the top and it would go down, and hopefully it would go into the big one. But it’s almost like train tracks where you go from point A to point B, but if you have inflammatory responses, it switches the train tracks and you go down another pathway. So one of the genetic polymorphisms that I have, I’m not sure if you’re aware of, but it’s the CYP two, one a two, which basically what that one does, is it helps to convert progesterone into cortisol. And here I am, I’m an adrenal fatigue survivor if you will.  But I didn’t realize that that was a genetic potential that I have, where I’m just not squeezing the sponge as much as I possibly can to get that to produce that cortisol. So the question I would have to you is, do you utilize I know you definitely talk about environmental things and stabilizing blood sugar and the whole mindset and activity and getting rid of chemicals as much as you possibly can. And getting the B vitamins is natural and your food sources.  But I’m curious to know Tabitha, how much of the genetic components are part of your treatment? protocols are not even protocols, but your workup and your forensics, if you will, of assessing what’s going on with your clients? Dr. Tabatha Barber: Yeah, I mean, I think that is where medicine should go, because we need to be individualized and how we care for patients and look at what’s going on with them. Right. Like we are all unique, we want to think we’re all experiencing the same thing. But we’re not we’re handling our estrogens differently. And I have a lot of women who really like to do the Dutch testing for hormones, the dried urine for comprehensive hormones, because you get to see what your body’s doing and how it’s metabolizing the sex hormones, right?  And so you see that Plinko Board of estrogen and does it go down and get methylated through the liver appropriately? Is it getting, you know, hydroxylated appropriately? And so, there that is where genes come into play. If you have like a CMT snipped or something and you cannot methylate that estrogen well, and your liver cannot handle it, that can also cause estrogen backup, it’s like, you know, the dam is getting backed up. And your estrogens have no way to get out of your body.  So they just go back into circulation, and they go into forms that are not so good that like to feed bad tissue and cause cancer. So that kind of information is really important. Because if we just assume everybody’s got the same genes activated and no mutations, then we don’t know that we need to help this one person with their liver function better, you know, or something like that. So it’s really important. I don’t do you know, I don’t force any of my patients to do this test.  And that test, I give them the options, we have a discussion, I say I don’t pay your bills, these tests cost money. It’s an investment in your health. That’s great information. A lot of patients have like their 23andme results or their ancestry.com results. And we can download that, you know, in look at it more for health issues, as opposed to like who’s your cousin, right? So you can use basic stuff to get a fair amount of information. And there are more advanced genetic testings out there. I actually just did one with Sam Shea that he’s gonna interpret on me pretty soon. So that was kind of cool. But I do think that’s the future.  I think it’s really important for us to look at individuals and how are you handling their sex hormones? As you said, you had trouble even making cortisol? That’s a big deal. Because if we just keep saying, Oh, you need to, you know, love on your dream nose and support them. Well, it’s more than that, right? You need to help with this. the issue that you have. And so it’s super important. Dr. Joel Rosen: No, it’s great to hear. And it’s what makes you the functional gynecologists because it really is again, and I get a lot of frustration because when you see what happens behind the curtains, and you’re aware of the I once had an office where it was sharing space with a restaurant, we had a shared hallway. And I would never eat at that restaurant because I couldn’t like they put the potatoes in this big thing of water. And it was just Oh, and when you see what’s behind the scenes, it’s you have more detail. And it’s the same thing with the way convention. Now, don’t get me wrong, conventional medicine has a purpose. And it’s great when it comes time to acute-based care. But when it’s a chronic health condition, and there are so many environmental things that overlap with that, and it overlaps with the potentials that genetically may be a little wonky, or cause a little extra load to go down the wrong pathways, then it’s not just a matter of, Hey, I’m a functional conventional doctor, and I’m an anti-aging doctor. So let’s just give you bioidenticals, even though you’re not clearing out that phase two of estrogen and I have no idea about that, let’s just reductionistic Lee give you this and hope for the best. So let me ask you this, I’d love to get your take on the indications or when it’s appropriate from your workup. When you are assessing in a functional gynecological way, where you’re looking at their genetics, or you’re considering their Dutch test, which I love. You’re looking at all of their health histories and their timelines and post-traumatic stressors and really helping them educate themselves as a Hey, it’s just not take a pill and fix this. But when is it appropriate and your practice where you see the best values and indications for I’ve done all of that all things being equal? Let’s get you on some bioidenticals. Now?   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Yeah, that’s a great question. So I have that conversation pretty early on. Because, you know, what I always say is your imbalanced sex hormones are not the cause of your problem. They are the result. They are a byproduct of something else going on.    Dr. Joel Rosen: And so just repeat that one more time. Sorry to interrupt you, because it’s so important to repeat because I think it’s, I think it’s super important where that’s a paradigm shift for not just doctors, but for patients, where just say it as eloquently as you did because I think it’s so important to repeat again.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Yeah, no, this I’m actually writing this book, ladies stop blaming your hormones, their result, their imbalance is the result, not the cause of your issue. So that being said, we can give you hormones to help give you an early win and help you maybe feel better to go on and do that bigger work. But if you don’t deal with your adrenals, your thyroid, and your sugar, those hormones aren’t going to work for very long, you’re going to be back in my office in three months feeling the same way because of the hormone issue is not your problem. That is a result. That is another symptom. And so I will go, either way, I will say to my patients, we can get an early win by giving you this testosterone because you’re at like point zero, right? Like you got nothing. Or we can support your adrenal glands, we can give you da ga, we can give you progesterone to help you sleep if that’s what it takes for you to start doing the work like having enough energy to prep your food and cook real food to go out and to move your body every day to do the yoga or whatever it takes. So, I work in a more conservative area. And honestly, most women don’t go for the hormones right away. They want to do the work. And I appreciate that. And I love that. So I don’t do a lot of bioidentical hormones just because people want to get to the root cause and they want to balance their hormones naturally. That being said, a woman going through perimenopause during that transition, sometimes it helps make a smoother transition, but you got to do the work. Like I’m just not in the business of chasing lab values and, you know, changing your hormone levels and giving you different prescriptions every three months because you’re not doing what it takes to feel better. You know, it’s not going to work. It’s just a temporary band-aid.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I love that about traditional conventional medicine is as you go deep down the pathways as the doctor And you see objective testing that tells you in real-time where you are and you put your doctor hat and ask the questions and spend the necessary time and help the decision with the patient to come up as a, hey, what fits your lifestyle, what fits where you are right now. And having that knowledge to understand the way to go, having the tools of the prescriptive or the bioidenticals to I guess, if you want bio-hack, or at least data track and use that much more effectively provided it’s not a set it and forget it, see you later, let’s not worry about your lately your levels of stress have as much modified, you know, corn syrup as you want. And, you know, you got to talk about all of those things. So I love what you’re talking about. Sadly, Tabitha, I had a client that I was talking to the other day, and she had a hysterectomy, a full hysterectomy. And there was no she actually had ovarian cancer and endometrial cancer, and there was no discussion whatsoever of the game plan afterward. And I think that’s so sad. And she felt bad. She felt her low self-esteem was low, which was contributed to I’m sure the fact that her hormones are low now, right? Plus, on top of whatever stressors post traumatically, she’s had, and she was blaming herself for asking me these questions that no one ever told her about. I said, first of all, you need to stop blaming yourself. It’s not you’re not the doctor, doctors need to tell you like, Okay, this is what we’ve done. This is our game plan. And I told her equally important is to figure out what went wrong, like cancer didn’t just fall out of the sky and hit you on the female reproductive system on the way down. Right. So we moving it is is is a therapeutic strategy, but why did it get there in the first place it should be on the doctor’s radar, and, and subsequently. Okay, what do we do now that we radically took this out there? So would you say at that point that might be more indicated for someone who’ve had those removals and hysterectomy is whether they’re full or partial? What’s your feeling on the necessity for supplementing or bioidentical hormones for those demographics.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: So more importantly, what I want to share is, it’s really important to still figure out what’s going on hormonally. So she’s probably making a lot fewer hormones because she has her ovaries removed, but your adrenal glands, your fat cells, they still do make some testosterone and estrogen. And so this is a common scenario. I see. Women have heavy periods, they go to the gynecologist they get an ablation, where we burn the lining inside the uterus so that you’re you don’t bleed anymore. You either have much lighter periods or no periods. And then you go into menopause. And that is the fix, right? 510 years down the line, these same women who had the ablation for heavy periods now come to me with breast cancer, because we didn’t fix the estrogen dominance. We didn’t take care of that hormone imbalance, we just hit the symptom of our body screaming, hey, something’s wrong. Something’s going on. Please pay attention to me. And so, unfortunately, I see this scenario all the time, either they had an ablation or hysterectomy. I’m all good. My doctor fixed me. But now I have breast cancer, right? Not cool. Not cool at all. And so even if you got rid of that nagging symptom, you still need to know what your hormones are doing. It’s super important. And like you said, cancer doesn’t come out of anywhere. Things don’t just happen overnight. You know, I like to think of diabetes. It’s a prime example. Like, we are trained that if your hemoglobin a one, see your average blood sugar is 5.6. You’re fine. You’re good. We’ll see it in a year 5.7 you have pre-diabetes. And, you know, you probably, you know, should have that rechecked in six months, six months later, you have diabetes, there’s no discussion about, hey, it took you five to seven years to get down this path. let’s reverse it and go the other direction. So you don’t get diabetes. Things don’t just happen overnight. You don’t wake up one day with diabetes. You don’t wake up one day with ovarian cancer, right? That’s not how it works or breast cancer. things develop over time. Your body is trying ridiculously hard. To counteract and stay in balance and combat all that crap that’s going on, it doesn’t want to grow crazy abnormal cells, it doesn’t want to grow cancer and have diabetes. It wants to be balanced. But we just keep ignoring all the symptoms, we keep ignoring all the signals from our body year after year after year until we finally have a diagnosis that we can take care of, you know, and so I want to shift that to be, we need to get you before you get the diagnosis, and we need to turn you around and send you the other direction. Like, that’s all there is to it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome stuff, like that, ‘s the mic drop in terms of, you know, and I think that’s where pharmaceutical companies and insurance policymakers have to get on board because ultimately, insurance companies should get on board on that. And that’s a whole other topic. But if you can save my insurance companies are all about saving money. And so if I can save money by getting you healthier, why would we not have inundations and, and, and certain policies that encourage that, so that we can spend a little bit money on the front end, but save a mass amount on the back end. Number one, it also implies that the approach to that’s why you’re the functional gynecologist, but the approach to healthcare is, hey, we’re not waiting for you to get an F on the grade here, we see a D, we see a C plus. And that’s where we need to intervene now. And that’s a huge paradigm shift as well. So kudos to you for thinking that. And the other thing I would say lastly is if you’re going in if you’re listening to this podcast, and you’re going in because you’re getting excessive bleeding, and they want to do an ablation, or you have fibroids or endometriosis, and they want to take care of it with a radical procedure, then make sure that a doesn’t get to that point in the first place. And you have a functional gynecologist to see the warning signs. But at the same time, ask the question, why did I get here? How did I get here? And what do I need to do in conjunction with what I just did radically, to support? You know, I had, I used to do a lot of thyroid workshops. And I had a client one time say, Hey, can I come to your workshop? I got my thyroid removed. Did I say you still have your immune system? She said, I said, Well come on into the workshop, because that was one of the main reasons that you had to have that thyroid removed, amongst other things. So to come up with a plan of why did you get here in the first place? And how do we give you commensurate recommendations now that we’ve done these things, so awesome to hear these things? Another question I have, if it’s okay, if I asked you, with with with a lot of the clients that I work with, they there is a certain demographic that have had hormonal imbalances from females from a young age, irregular bleeding, so they were put on birth control, and they were on it for so many years, can you kind of get-go down that rabbit hole as to what the doctor is thinking with doing it in that approach? What the long-term consequences could be? And what alternatives would be for that type of female that’s presenting like that?   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Yeah. So you know, the thought is, if you’re not making your hormones appropriately, you are showing up with hormone imbalance, irregular periods, things like that. We put you on a birth control pill because it’s a synthetic form of a hormone to mimic your own cycle. But it’s, and what they found over the years was some women got rid of their acne, some women had fewer PMS symptoms, but some women have worse acne and worse PMS. So everybody responds differently. But what happens is that communication between your brain and your ovaries is shut down, there is no longer a communication going on, you are not making your own hormones, you are taking synthetic hormones. And unfortunately, if you take it long enough, a lot of times that communication never comes back online when you go off of the pill. And so you got a woman on birth control starting at age 14 or 15 because her periods are a little irregular, and she’s got some acne because she junk food, but it’s a whole nother story. She gets on the pill, you know, 1015 years later, she wants to have babies, she goes off and there’s no period and well, how come what’s the problem because the ovaries and the brain haven’t talked for over a decade. They need some guidance, they need some help, they might never talk again. And so that can be really discouraging for women, right. And it can also push an imbalance toward too much testosterone, it can damage your gut health and cause dysbiosis and lead to insulin resistance. We’ve seen pals develop from being on birth control pills, you know, what conventional doctors are taught is that there’s no harm in this, and it hasn’t been linked to breast cancer, and it probably decreases your risk of ovarian cancer. So it’s all good, and all women should be on it, that those are kind of the blanket statements by our society’s a colleague, you know, American College of ob-gyn. And so that’s how gynecologists practice. And I will tell you, the rates of breast cancer have gone up in the past few decades. And there are more and more women on birth control pills, just because we don’t have a study. evaluating it directly doesn’t mean it’s not causing it. I’m not saying it does. But I would venture to say synthetic hormones and menopausal women caused cancer, why wouldn’t they? In premenopausal women, so that’s my little nervousness. Having said that, I am in favor of birth control, right? If I would have had more babies after my 17-year-old pregnancy, I don’t know that I could have become a physician very easily. So I am all for women having a choice and making that decision if they want to use that for birth control, more power to them that should be available. But I want you to know what you’re getting into in the long run, and what possible consequences might happen from it. Hey, there are other actions that don’t cut down that communication between your brain and ovary. Let’s talk about other options, right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, you know, it’s, it’s an important point that you make in terms of communication runs you at the cellular level, and it runs your relationships at the 30,000-foot level, right? I mean, if you’re not communicating with your spouse, or your kids, or your colleagues or your parents, and there’s a breakdown, then there’s going to be turmoil, and there’s going to be miscommunication. And the same thing happens at the cellular level where that pituitary is sedated. And it’s already sedated with cytokines and inflammation and blood sugar imbalances. And again, coming up with the repetitive theme of Okay, if you’re having irregular periods at this young age, let’s figure out why. And address that and blood sugar comes up. And actually what’s coming up now, which is scary is Wi-Fi. It’s really 5g, as I’m sure you’re aware of which you know, they sleep with their phone underneath their head with not in airplane mode, and every little notification their Pavlovian dog reflexive, answering that text and eating sugary foods and not having a protein or fat to be seen. And you know what, let’s just put you on birth control. Now again, if, if you’re, if you’re discussing the other things, and it’s, it’s symptomatically painful, and it’s disruptive to your life, and you need to, as you said earlier, bide some time and get some early wins, then let’s do this or for whatever other but let’s not ignore neglect the physiology that led to this in the first place. So we can synergistically do healthy things at the same time. And that’s what I think the beauty of medicine is headed towards as well where we can harness these interventions pharmaceutically to Biohack the body and do it short-term-wise as well, like Metformin and other at a lot of other things, lots of other things. So awesome information, I can see why your patients must love you and why you’re the functional gynecologist. So tell us a little bit about how we get in contact with you. If this resonates with our listeners and they’re looking for someone, do you work with people distantly? Tell us a little bit about your private practice and how to get in contact with you.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Oh, yeah, thanks, Dr. Joel. So I’m licensed in over half of the country, I can see patients and be your physician and many, many states. In the states I’m not licensed in, I can at least act as your coach and give you guidance and really delve into the issues that you need to handle. I just can’t necessarily give you your thyroid medication, that kind of thing. But don’t hesitate to reach out to me because we can help you for sure. So I recommend women go to my website www. dr tabitha.com. It’s three A’s ta B at AJ and you know, reach To me, email me call the office, and see if we can work together. I do a group program a few times a year where it’s a seven-week, you know, a program we get you hormonally balanced by getting you eating the right foods. Incorporating intermittent fasting, healing your gut, managing your stressors, dealing with all your emotional baggage, all that stuff. So that is called the renew you seven-week challenge. That’s pretty amazing. And it’s a sisterhood of women who do it together, we lift each other up, we support each other through it, it’s an awesome course. And then you can listen to my podcast, the functional gynecologist right. And I always have awesome guests like Dr. Joel, we talk about anything and everything that relates to women’s health because women just need to hear the information. They need to know that there’s an alternative to the pill and the surgery. You know, there are other options. You just need to know about them. So yeah, definitely check me out or Facebook, Instagram, Dr. Tabitha.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome information. So in parting, I always ask my guest Tabitha. So with your knowledge and your Sage wisdom now that you’ve acquired over your trials and tribulations and continuing to search for answers and having a purpose-driven mission to help women that aren’t being heard? What would you have told the younger I call it bright-eyed and bushy-tailed Tabitha, that you didn’t know then that you know, now that would have helped your stress response would have helped you adapt quicker, or even just any information that would have helped you from a health standpoint.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Yeah, so I would have put my oxygen mask on before I put others on, I would have taken care of myself first and foremost, from the get-go before my patients, as hard as that was for is for me to swallow, I have to take care of me before I can take care of the people that I love. Because you cannot feel from an empty cup.   Dr. Joel Rosen: It’s a good point, we have a lot in common in that regards to I think that a lot of the time we are the shoemakers with massive holes in our shoes. And we are so busy working on other people’s holes no matter what, even if we’re doing it from a functional standpoint, we always have to be reminded that self-care is it’s not helpful if it’s not happening first. It is selfish, right? I mean, because if you’re not able to put your oxygen mask on yourself, you can’t help other people. And I find that a lot of people in the holistic area or people you probably have this as well, where clients that you work with, they’ve been through so much. And so many doctors and the journey has been so arduous and long, but they really like and love and embrace the new concepts that they themselves now go on and help other people in different capacities based on their own hero’s journey. And I think the thing to remind them about is always, always and that’s talking to you and to me, is always take care of yourself. First, It’s not selfish. I mean, they say to pay yourself first, put the oxygen mask on yourself first, fix the holes in your shoes first. And I think a lot of people that are exhausted and burnt out or having hormone imbalances, in a lot of ways they are those over empathetic clients that have that predisposition to be caring and helping people do you find that as well.    Dr. Tabatha Barber: Oh, yeah, that, you know, they say yes to everybody else, because they want to make people happy. They want their people pleaser. And that’s okay, that’s a beautiful thing that you know, you’re like that you have a huge heart. But it’s gonna kill you, man. It’s gonna deplete you. So you have to give yourself as much grace as you’d give somebody else and give to yourself. It’s just as important.    Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. And so and then I think you mentioned a way for them to get ahold of your book, where would they go to do that? Oh, yeah.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: So it’s on Amazon, you know, or Barnes and Noble, but you can get it off my website as well. So if they want to check that out, that’s fun. It’s an inspirational autobiography like I just want to share my story because I think it inspires people to remember that they are capable of going for their dreams and doing what they want to do and whatever roadblocks there are. There’s always a way around, you know, so I just want to inspire women like hey, you can do this it. I did it. It was rough. So you can do it too.    Dr. Joel Rosen: Well. You have integrity in that sense. Like you’re not just telling other women to walk the walk when you haven’t done it yourself. Right. So that’s great as far as did you mention And also that you have a new book coming out or you’re working on another book.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: I am it’s an owl, I’ll come back on when it comes out.   Dr. Joel Rosen: All right, that’s great. Well, we will have you back on, I love to have that open invitation for our guests. Because I know like yourself, I’m sure, whatever, whenever I, you know, six months or later, I always say anyone that I’ve consulted with six months or later, I would love to talk to you again because so much has changed in terms of the research. We know, in terms of practice, as we talked about earlier, where practices, you don’t know it all. As soon as you feel you know, it all you probably are in big problems with not knowing it all. And ultimately, the practice continues to make perfect and we have these clinical nuggets and tools of the trade that we find aha moments like oh my gosh, I’m connecting these dots all the time. So we’d love to keep that invitation open and just want to thank you for your time today and and and just commend you on all the hard work and dedication and the taking the not easy role Tabitha in terms of it’s not easy to shine the light on yourself. It’s not easy to shine the light on the faults and the flaws of conventional medicine and take the criticism and being vulnerable to your colleagues and just continue to hold that mission-driven purpose because it’s sure is going notice. So thank you so much for all you do.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Welcome. Thank you so much. And for your listeners, I do have a free guide. It’s called the functional gynecologists guide to balancing your hormones naturally. So if you can throw the link in there for them, that would be awesome.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, great. I will. Yes. Awesome. All right. Well, you have a good rest of your day Tabitha, and we’ll catch up soon.   Dr. Tabatha Barber: Thank you. Take care.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Bye.   To learn more about Dr. Tabatha Barber click here The post Adrenal Fatigue and Female Hormone Imbalance with Dr. Tabatha Barber appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, Hello, everyone. And welcome back to another edition of less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt-out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m really excited to be interviewing our next guest, Charlie Johnson, He is an online transformation coach. And he works with busy professionals who enjoy the qualities of life, while at the same time being able to achieve the dream physique. I’m really excited to interview Charlie because personally, I had developed my fatigue and exhaustion as a result of overtraining. And I really wanted to pick Charlie’s brain and get some insights on how to avoid that and all the other things that are associated with transforming your physique. So Charlie,   Charlie Johnson: Thank you so much for being here today. Pleasure show. And so this is a fascinating topic, and something that I love discussing in these little rabbit holes, we can go down with this. And I’d start with the low-hanging fruit first get straight into it. And that’s like training and training volume. Because I think the biggest mistake we have as a society at the moment, I don’t know if you’ll agree with this is that we have this opinion that necessarily doing more of anything or more of reading more of something or doing more of everything is better, and not necessarily doing more is better, better, is better. So I think the biggest mistake a lot of people make is they associate working out more than doing more sets or training more frequently, or getting better results. When in reality, I actually find that a lot of clients, when they come to me, we actually stripped their training back, then you do maybe three hours a week of weight sessions, and they get way better results from doing less work. And there’s less stress in the body, because one of the things people don’t think about is that every time you’re doing repetitions a see an elbow issue, it’s quite common to see your elbow tendonitis, or your knees, this used a nice example. Every time you just say, for example, a leg extension leg machine, you’re putting stress on that joint, you’re gonna be causing inflammation. If you’re training over and over again, to do high reps and lots of sets, like that’s gonna create a lot of extra inflammation and fatigue within the joints in the tissue within that area. And the reality is that you can get a lot more bang for your buck by having fewer sets, but higher quality within the set that you’re doing in terms, your technique, the amount of load, you’re doing, how hard you’re pushing yourself. And that, for me is the first thing that I would really try and address with people when they come to me and they’re in the situation where they might have adrenal fatigue, they’re rundown, they’re not recovering. As the first thing, we’ll be looking at. Okay, what’s, what’s the battering ram that’s literally like nailing down our nervous system and causing this from a training point of view? And I don’t know if you agree with that, Joe, is that something you see with people coming to you that they have this association with, like, I have to do or have to do more, I have to do more doing?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, 100%. And it’s interesting, I like that. Not more is better, better, is better. And what we tell people, Charlie is that there’s a Goldilocks zone of not too little, and not too much, but you want to be somewhere in the right, the right amount, because we process so many stimuli daily. And I think that’s what’s leading to so much fatigue and exhaustion between notifications on our phones, SMS, text messaging, all of these things, plus, you know, putting out fires to-do lists. So much micromanaging of different stressors cumulatively, cumulatively over and over and over again, and I think exercise is really good. And weight training is a really good sample of that specific thing happening in the body. And you’re right. And that’s, that’s very true in terms of, it’s the quality of the movement, and it’s also the ability to not overload the system. So why don’t you tell us a little bit about your story, in terms of I know, you potentially had some challenges yourself health challenges, and how did you get into doing what you were doing?   Charlie Johnson: So to give a brief synopsis, so when I was 1718, I qualified as a trainer, and I was always a little bit overweight at that stage, and I was in my teens, early 20s. And that probably resonates with a lot of people who are listening to this right now. But I always loved working out. And again, that was interesting. We’re talking about the training more, and not getting results situation because that’s 100%. While I was doing I had this belief that if I train twice a day, I’d get twice as good results. If you do 10 sets of bicep curls if you do 20 or your arms grow twice as fast, which obviously couldn’t be further from the truth. So I qualified as training was at 19. I was beating people for about a year and I wasn’t necessarily training the demographic of clientele. I wanted to train so I went and did a ski season random fact I’m a qualified ski instructor. I came back and then went into the Property industry. And then because I didn’t want to get back into training people in the gym, personally one to one, and then I managed a branch for real estate agents for 510 years. And then in the meantime, I started to take my own training and nutrition much more seriously. And probably when I got about 2526, sounding like a flip switched, some flip switches switch flipped around, and I like to decide, Okay, I’m gonna do a physique competition. And that was an interesting experience, to say the least, as interesting as reading a book today, one of the things he said is that, like, you should do one thing every single week that scares you, like, it could be anything. And that at the time was like terrifying because you’re standing your pants on a stage and you pre can’t put yourself out there much more than that. But what that gave me the ability to do is it gave me a very concise goal with a specific deadline. And I pushed myself to complete fatigue, probably adrenal Lee everything, like I remember the point where I was at work, and I tried to walk down the street, and I could literally hardly put one foot in front of the other. Because I was overtraining, I trained like think, up until the show every day for three weeks straight, which, again, in hindsight, is a terrible idea. So like, I’ve been there, and I’ve been that person, I’ve gone to like the complete extreme of like, deplete your training every day for nearly a month. And now I go to the complete opposite to where I am now where, like, I train a lot less, and I get way better results because now I’ve learned through age and experience that is listening to your body is the most important thing you can do. And you have to take back these little bits of feedback and like a real thing that I teach clients now there’s the real hit home point I want everyone to focus on and everyone to who’s listening to this to take on board is that the whole point of training and nutrition, everything is becoming self-aware and aware of your body and how certain things make you feel, and learning about yourself. And once you become more aware of how certain foods make you feel how certain training makes you feel. It’s an easy way for you to make more informed decisions based upon how you feel on that day. So one of the most stupid things you can people do. So for example, they, their back hurts, and they go to the gym, and they’ve got deadlifts in the program, and they still do deadlifts. It’s like, if something’s not right, don’t just do it for the sake of doing it. And I think that’s one of the big things people need to take on board. I think there’s a big element when it comes to training that people need to understand that when you come, I like to give the analogy with your body and energy levels. Recovery is like when you’re training, you’re digging a hole. And through exercise, if you’re in a calorie deficit, you’re burning body fat, you’re digging a hole. And a lot of people would dig such a big hole, that they can’t get themselves out from recovering that permanent that hole of recovery, where their body is just constantly rundown or fatigued. And then it’s that compound effect that just goes on and on and on. And then inflammation within the body will increase and it goes on and on until it gets to a breaking point, then they probably get a serious injury. And that’s why one of the things that we’ll talk through later on the podcast is like, there are some telltale signs I would look at in terms of from a training point of view, where you can realize this is happening. And there are certain techniques that we use with clients that help to dig you back out of the hole and fill the hole if that makes sense.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. Why don’t you kind of go right into that Charlie and come up with those who share the telltale signs that you see people doing?   Charlie Johnson: So I listen to everything else. narcissist, Jocko willing podcast today. And he says something completely bastardized in his quote. But he says something that’s very, very good. That was basically like, all failure in life is psychological rather than death. Because like, if you say, for example, you’re, you’re trying to run a 5k. And you want to try and beat your time as you will psychologically give up before your body gives up. And unless you actually die, like that’s pretty much fact. Because you’re constantly deciding to give up. So that’s something that I think is very important to take on board. But then also on the other side of things, people need to be aware that, like, you need to use your brain more than your balls for when you’re training. And when you’re looking after yourself. Because the more I age, and the off, I get more experience I get, I now see life as a way of protecting my energy and protecting my body. So then that when I want to train, I have the full capability to go like full steam ahead. And the rest of the time I rein it in. So someone who has been a bit of a mentor to me the last few years is a guy called Ben Pakulski. And he talks a lot about having two mental states in terms of her I mean, the warrior and the monk and it’s like flipping your nervous system between the two. And that’s quite a good analogy to think of in terms of you almost have like an alter ego. But looking for signs to tell you where you’re starting to get run down. The first thing I saw says that if you’re at the point where you’re going into the gym, and you’re like, you know, I can’t be asked to this, I’m not really feeling it, and you normally love training that, for me is normally a big sign that something’s Probably not, right. If you’re trying to really push it, you have to force yourself to do it. And you normally like training. So one of the best things I find with clients in that respect or myself is like dealing with children, we have to like reverse psychology ourselves. So if you take the gym away, like, Okay, I’m not allowed to train for three days. By the time you come back on the fourth day, you’re literally chomping at the bit ready to go and your body will be completely refreshing. So that’s one of the first things I look at is when people say like, all I’m really not enjoying training at the moment, I like whatever’s going on. And then maybe they got a lot of personal stress going on. The best thing they can actually do sometimes in that situation is actually taking a step back to take two steps forwards. I don’t know if that’s anything you’ve experienced yourself, Joe?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Oh, absolutely. Less is more for sure. And one of the things that I used to train a lot myself, and I don’t I mean, obviously, you’ll know Dorian Yates, but do you remember Mike mentor mech skirt? I think it was, yeah, so he had a book called heavy-duty training. And it was about like, every time you go to the gym, I don’t know how I feel about it now. But at that point, when I read that, it was, it was a paradigm shift for me because it kind of resonates with what you said I had that where you would go to the gym and you didn’t feel like being there and your enthusiasm and your physical capacity were a lot less. And that’s what he was talking about with the heavy-duty training is going about it in the with the way of bringing more energy each workout so that you’re building on that and, and make make sure you’re listening to your body. And it’s not set and regimented that you got to do every single day. So how did I guess it’s it? You do have sort of this yin yang of the monk and the what was the other? What was the warrior? Yeah, so you also have like the regimented and the instinctual, right. So how do you balance those two?   Charlie Johnson: One of the ways to really look at that in terms of balance, the two of those are very much like data in some respects. So, for example, I’m a big fan of safest like a conventional gym training point of view, tracking your main lifts. And you’re at the point where, for example, say everyone in America loves benchpress will use bench presses as an example. always fascinated, everyone in America loves the bench, but they go. And so say, for example, you got bench press in your program, and that is now no longer progressing, you’re not improving anywhere on that. Like that, to me, again, would probably be a telltale sign that you’re probably starting to burn out your nervous system, where your performance levels are no longer starting to increase. Now, that being said, you could also reverse engineer this back and think, Okay, is there any other reason why this could be happening? Because it’s almost like you’ve played the game of being a detective like Sherlock Holmes in your body. So if you think about what’s happened the day before that incident, your training sessions and try and identify if there’s been anything else that could be causing issues? So how’s your sleep been bad? Have you been overly stressed? Have you not been eating correctly? Have you been dehydrated? Have you been doing a lot more exercise than usual and just try and identify if there are any other reasons why your performance could be decreasing or not improving? And if it’s not progressing, and you are being honest with yourself, you’re trying your best to progress that then that would be again another telltale sign to me physiologically that you’re could be pushing at the end of the point where you might want to maybe take two, three days off. Now, one thing I would say this thing in mind, like, quote-unquote, the jazzy term in the training industry is a D load we call them and I don’t think you need to program in like every six weeks, we take a whole week off every eight weeks, we take a whole partner’s birthday comes up, you’ve got Christmas, you’ve got a new year, you’ve got something like you might come unwell, all these small things happen. That will mean you might have to take 234 days off a train that will naturally mean you have to take a little bit of a break or go on vacation. We used to be allowed to do those sorts of things. No jokes about that on the podcast, but so like listening to your body in that respect is very important. And the other set telltale scientists from a training point of view or look at is if you’re finding that you’re not recovering between sessions in terms of joint like joint integrity if your elbows knees are feeling more inflamed than usual, and you just don’t feel quite 100% that’s normally a very obvious sign. Now when it comes to muscle soreness, you can still train some muscle soreness because generally, All muscle tissue will repair within 48 hours, anything beyond that just generally tends to be inflammation. So I’m not overly concerned if someone has a little bit of muscle soreness still. But one thing I say to anyone listening, if you are going into your next training session and you’re still a bit sore, you probably actually need to reduce again, like we were saying, the amount of workload you’re doing within those sessions, or maybe spray spaced them out an extra day, just to optimize your recovery. Because again, it’s not about how hard we can train, it’s about how hard we can recover, because recovery is the key bit, that’s going to help you take two steps forward rather than taking two steps backward.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and I think for people that are listening, I hope they have a couple of lightbulbs go off. Because even though it’s tough to hear like you want to make those gains, you want to work out twice as hard to get twice as many results. You realize through wisdom and going through it yourself that you got to train smarter. And to get those gains, you got to do less, that’s kind of a tough paradigm for people to understand. So, Charlie, as far as when you were you mentioned when you were training for your show, and you ended up doing something fearful and having to do that you learned a lot about yourself, but I would imagine the best thing, or one of the top things that you learned was how your body processes nutrients, and how to be able to cut body fat, and to be able to get leaner and leaner, which is in a recipe book where you just read an article, and then you apply the information because as you suggest, with all the people that you work with everyone’s individual, and everyone’s going to have customized recommendations. So kind of get lead us down that rabbit hole, Charlie, in terms of what you learned with the individuality of the body and for yourself specifically, but how do you then apply those principles to the people that you make transformations for?   Charlie Johnson: Big thing I’d say first, this and this is my greatest gift and skill is given giving people and clients the ability to believe in themselves. Because I didn’t believe in myself until I did it. And then once I realized I could get in shape, I was like shit, like, this is what happens when you like when you turn up the dial or 10% or being more accurate with stuff, you get an extra 50% results. It’s not like a, we’ve done a bit 10% more accuracy in terms of what we’re doing, we get 10% more results is literally like night and day. And when that pet that the penny dropped. For me, that was really life-changing. And that’s my gift now the clients and how their client or their businesses Peter who said to me He’s like, my biggest surprise when I speak you speak with one of my coaches and then we’ve spoken with speak with me, it’s like a company how certain you guys are about getting results I was like, is full proof is impossible because it just it is and it’s the whole thing is just having the individual believe in themselves. Because once I begin to that law of attraction, if you believe you can do something, you can achieve anything. So I’m currently sitting in Dubai looking over the Persian Gulf, and two years ago, still working full time in a real estate job. So like, and then I’ll work for myself do what I want when I want and like anything can happen when you commit to something wholeheartedly and you believe in it. But you just have to have the confidence to do that and have the support network around you, which is really what I provide. But in terms of from a practical point of view for anyone listening, the real low hanging fruit in terms of what you really need to pay attention to in like learning about yourself is, as I said, those like those small details, they do accumulate and compound and make a difference over a period of time. So if you’re, for example, the week at you Monday, the class examples like the weekend warrior, Monday to Friday, everyone’s perfect and there but where everything’s grammar is not you have to weigh stuff. And then Saturday, Sunday comes and it’s like a car crash. And then Monday rolls around again and people are guilty. And in that same trap of them. They probably burn themselves out in the week because they’d be working lose their train loads, they won’t eat enough. And then they go back into the weekend and they overeat. And it’s just that repetitive cycle over and over and gone. And what you want to try and do is really break that cycle. And as soon as Penny drops with the client, they realize, okay, I can still eat some stuff that enjoyed the weekend, have a meal with my partner, and go out and enjoy myself. And then like 80% of the time I stay on track, I’ll get world-class results. And it’s just teaching these habits that are the key. And the big thing that like we focus on is teaching. Like, say, for example, you want to walk around at 10% body fat. What we want you to do is create the right habits daily that a person who has who would be 10% body fat will have so you eat the right foods your active you have a positive mindset, all these bits, and pieces. And as these habits come into your life as a byproduct your physique will become an end The result but I’m digressing a little bit, but in terms of things for people to look at, I think the big overlooked aspects are digestion will be the first and foremost, and the quality in the food you’re eating, because there’s a lot of things which can cause problems digestive Lee that people aren’t aware of. And like, I’ve learned a lot about myself over the last 12 to 18 months with things triggering my digestion, causing bloating. And we have to remember that a huge amount of our immune system is based within our digestive tract. So we’ve got digestive problems, we’ve got inflammation in the gut, that’s going to cause a whole host of other issues, which can lead up to that. So to the easy things, I probably look at trying to take out three things or take out your diet. Try and remove anything processed in terms of very heavy in artificial sweeteners, colorings, anything that’s not generally a single ingredient item of food and try and limit it, I would generally recommend limiting dairy because most people tend to have issues tolerating lactose. And then the last thing I’ll say is most people don’t realize that they have an issue with gluten, which is something that I’ve only clocked on to in the last six to 12 months. And I don’t know if those are things you’ve experienced with some of your clients’ shows.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I mean, the first thing though, is the mindset. It’s amazing. Because, you know, a lot of people, when whenever you talk about the word transformation, whether it’s transforming your body or Transforming Your Life, you have to believe that you can do that. And I think a lot of people don’t believe it, whether it’s stinking thinking, or the inflammation that’s in their gut goes through their brain, or they’ve tried so many different things, and it hasn’t worked. Or life’s not fair, and it’s not going to happen for them. Whatever it is, it’s, it’s almost like a foregone conclusion. I mean, if you don’t have that belief set before you even embark on the tools that you need to do to get there, I think you’re not going to get there anyway. So that would be the first thing that resonates with me. And then also in terms of, you’re more than just a transformation coach, Charlie, in terms of everything you’re talking about, you’re taught, you’re telling, like when you work out the muscles of the skill, skeletal system, in the gym, but you’re also working the brain system, as well inside and outside of the gym. And it’s all one unit. And the evolution is you read magazines in the beginning, and you just kind of do what everyone’s doing. But then when you start with that journey, you learn how your body works. And you evolve all the muscles, not just the muscles of the body, the muscles of the brain. But yes, as far as gluten and dairy, if I have never worked with anyone, I will tell them like you should get off a gluten and dairy, dairy for more than one reason, not just the fact that they can’t break down lactose. But most of the bovine hormones if it’s not hormone-free stuff, that’s a huge problem. Also, they’re eating corn and they’re corn fed. I mean, it’s, it’s almost become neurotic, knowing how bad that is. plus the protein in dairy looks so similar to the protein in wheat. So even if you don’t have a lactose problem, you’re probably cross-reacting to the protein and gluten, it’s 80% similar. So I’ll tell people, it’s like putting a key in the lock, the gluten key will open the door, but the dairy key will still fit in the lock, it just won’t open it which basically means your immune system will still react to it if you’re reacting to if it’s reacting to gluten. So those are the big things and plus gluten has been adulterated, it has glyphosate. And there’s you know, chemicals in that as well. So I love that the idea of getting rid of processed food if your grandma doesn’t recognize that food, it’s probably not good food for you to be eating so. So as far as I guess the next question would be Charlie, as far as the dietary go a lot, you’ve tried different diets, what has worked best for you?   Charlie Johnson: Okay, and that was one other thing I actually think it might be worth adding value in to mention is that signs or symptoms that things might cause issues for you. So this is something that really triggered me a lot, not Christmas this year, the year before. So Christmas Day, obviously you tend to go overboard and enjoy yourself. And I get an awful lot but like in one day, I put on five kilos, which is a hell of a lot. And it was just waterways upon five kilos within five, four, or five days I dropped it again. And that was just inflammation from my body in terms of like, I was eating cheesecake cheese, dairy, gluten, you’d like chocolate, whatever you name it was going in and yeah, I went completely overboard. No, it was moronic, but that again was a very obvious trigger to me being like okay, My body clearly cannot cope and does not like processed foods because my inflammation just goes to the absolute roof. And I also noticed that I get very heavy brain fog when I start to have foods like that. So anyone listening, if you notice that you have a quote, unquote cheat meal at the weekend and your weight go to the absolute roof because you’re eating things like ice cream, cheese, cakes, whatever, then that’s probably a sign that those things really don’t agree with your body. And it’s setting off a very heavy auto-immune response. So that would be something I would add-in. When it comes to nutrition. This is so specific to the individual and more so to the psychology of the individual. So I’ve tried pretty much everything. The one thing I wouldn’t I generally don’t advocate as a whole would be a ketogenic diet from the point of view that for most people, all they want is fat loss. Now, they do a ketogenic diet, and they lose weight on the scale. So the scale starts to drop because they’re depleting the muscle tissue of glycogen, which is gonna make them lighter, they’re generally also going to be eating less volume of food, which means their stomachs gonna have less food within them. So they’re going to be lighter. And yes, they will start to lose body fat because they’re in a calorie deficit. After all, they’ve removed one of the three macronutrients so that the body has no choice but start to start to use body fat, for fuel. But what I would what my preference is, is generally, and I know this isn’t sexy or glamorous, and it’s not like something you can put in a magazine is using a balanced diet, or we’ll use all three macronutrients. But the thing that I would do, I use with myself and with clients, if I was put a jersey term when I call like a metabolic priming approach, where we basically will put carbohydrates around the workouts when our body needs them to fuel training and fuel performance. So we can optimize body composition. And we can focus on saying like, it’s like, feel the great form, great look great. So if you generally feel awesome, you can train awesome. And then as a byproduct, your look awesome. So we really try to fuel the training window with that today, when you’ll be working out you have slightly higher carbohydrates and maybe a little bit less fat, protein will always stay consistent. And then days where you’re not training, we would reduce your carbohydrate levels down to have slightly fewer carbohydrates and calories on those days because you don’t have the same energy output. And what it effectively does will put you through a calorie in a carbohydrate cycle as you go through the week, and it will keep you sensitive in terms of insulin sensitivity, improving nutrition, nutrient partitioning. So these are all very important in terms of for body composition point of view, a very common question that a lot of people say and have a big fear of is regards to carbohydrates, and particular iconic carbohydrates office, it’s like an evening because you’re turning to auto, you can’t turn it the BFG or something like it doesn’t work like that. So one of the things I find works really, really well with clients and works myself, like I’m inherently quite greedy, and like eating food. And what I like to do with clients generally is I like to try and eat their carbohydrates journey to the later in the day, in particular, on days, we’re not training if they’re slightly less food for a couple of reasons. So number one is that you genuinely if you’re going to be sitting down enjoying a meal and relaxing more, it’s going to be in the evening at the end of the day, which is also when you’re gonna be more likely to get led astray and want to pick other stuff. So you have probably your biggest meal of the day towards the end, the likelihood is that it’d be easier for you to stay to adhere to your diet, which is ultimately the key to anyone getting results is it is adherence and people being able to stick to something. So that’s obviously what’s optimal in terms of like scientifically and like the small percentages and versus what’s practical, and what’s practical that someone can stick to, psychologically, we’ll always get the best results that will always be my preference in that respect. And again, that comes down to as well. One thing I always recommend with people, myself and clients, anyone is that if you want to go to the weekend, you will have a meal we have wherever you want that is completely awesome. That’s no problem. But I would always suggest people do that as the last meal of the day because if you’re going in to breakfast, you’re like okay, Saturday, I want to have a meal this week and have whatever I want. 90 am I’m gonna have a ton of pancakes and have bacon have all this stuff. There’s no way on earth you can be eating sensibly probably the rest of the day. So that’s some basic tips in terms of what I’d suggest people should be looking to in terms of setting up their nutrition, and some other things that can help I would suggest you try and meal frequency is a common question. Again, person-specific. So I would say when days people are working out, you probably want the maybe higher frequency of meals and maybe four or five, potentially six depending on how long you’re awake and how hungry you are. And then days where you don’t work out you could probably have slightly less and potentially maybe even push back your first meal of the day today. Maybe mid-morning if you wanted to. That would be generally how I tend to structure diets with clients and myself. But again, it’s very specific to the individual in terms of what works for them. But again, in terms of food choices, like we were talking about a minute ago, it will always be very easy to digest foods that sit well with individuals. So we’ll be avoiding things like even say, for example, the best one, I love oats. So like, I’m big Ah, man. And I never realized why I was getting issues with oats, like bloating and stuff until I was like, Okay, I’ll try gluten-free oats, no issue at all. So again, like, the big thing with me, big clients is just making sure that the food choices you are making there on the plan are the correct ones. Because those small little differences can make it make a compound over a period of time to get much, much better results. And ultimately, my job is to make it as efficient and easy as possible to go from point A to where you are now to point B, which is the result with as little stress as possible if that makes sense.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s a great answer I what was it What was the jazzy turn the metabolic reboot, or as.   Charlie Johnson: I call it, a metabolic priming approach metabolic priming diet. So it’s like, we just tried to utilize the body to use fuel when it actually needs to feed the body nutrients when actually needs it. So we’re basically giving it the right food and fuel at the right times. Whereas a lot of people don’t tend to take in necessarily pay attention to the small details of that. And ultimately, like, the other meals today don’t really matter. But for me, the most important ones, for anyone listening would be the meal before training and the meal after training, making sure you’re hydrated within that window. Now, I’m not necessarily a big advocate of promoting supplements with people. But the other big thing that I find for most people makes a big difference is also adding in an intro workout drink, which would contain carbohydrates. So like a form of glycogen for performance, and make sure that towards the end of the session, you don’t drop off amino acids, which are basically like broken-down forms of protein, which again, will prevent muscle breakdown to muscle breakdown as much with age recoveries, that again, we can train harder more frequently. And it’ll also add in things like creating that as well because our body’s most receptive to take in nutrients when we’re training. And when we’ve actually got like, blood within the muscle, if that makes sense.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, it’s great suggestions. I love it, Charlie. And it’s its common sense is not so common number one, right. And in terms of what your say, it’s not, it’s not cracking the atom, it’s, it’s just common sense. Like, if I’m going to work out more, I’m going to need more fuel. And if I’m not working out as much, I’m not going to need as much fuel, I’m going to also need more available fuel that gets into the gas tank a lot quicker, and that would necessitate me having more carbohydrates. So I love that information that you’re giving, as far as when you have clients that reach out to you. And ultimately, they want to lower their body fat and low, you know, increase their mass, if they hit a plateau, and they are not moving because that could be really difficult for a coach. How do you troubleshoot that? And how do you what do you usually find are the reasons or the common reasons for people hitting those plateaus.   Charlie Johnson: So the body is complex machinery we like to think it is and it will eventually adapt to everything we do. So at some point, things will need to change, and like we have clients check in every week. And the best result a client can have is where we don’t have to change anything because it means it’s working perfectly. We will only change things when there is a need to where something slows down our progress stops. So that’s when we will then maybe look at changing training volume and training frequency. Depending on the goal if their goal is to get leaner then maybe look at an increase in cardiovascular output. So burning more calories, or maybe looking at dropping calories slightly. And we can also look at manipulating macronutrients slightly depending on where people are at within the quote-unquote fitness, journey, and transformation. I often see that with, say, people who have a higher body fat percentage, say, for example, a guy comes to me he and he’s 18 to 20% body fat now, and we work our way down, he gets to maybe say 12% and then things start to plateau. We can even keep his calories that same sort of level. But what I’ll actually often do and I’ve done with myself, this unit works superbly well. So I use myself as a case study as a great example. So I think November time I was dying for a photo shoot and I’ve hit a wall of hungry all the time. Like training sessions are starting to dip. And what I did. And what I do with clients is I dropped my protein intake down. So from like 300 to 200. And that’s what I did, I just swapped it for carbohydrates. So I added the calorie still say the same because there are four calories per gram of carbohydrates, four calories per gram of protein, but just altered the macronutrient ratio. And generally, when you’re leaner, your body is much more receptive to use carbohydrates more efficiently. And you don’t actually generally need as much protein as you think all the time. So and also, another benefit of a higher carbohydrate diet generally met doesn’t make you feel fuller. So at that point, I was starting to feel quite hungry all the time, which again, when you start to get a client who’s starting to push from going from 12% body fat downwards, that’s when it then becomes much more about staying adherent to the diet and pushing a little bit harder. Because once you’re starting to say even lower, like 10%, and below it, then there is no ifs, buts, or maybes, you’re probably going to have to push the calories lower and lower and lower it to get to where you want to be. So altering those macronutrients, when you get to that sort of trigger point can sometimes be an absolute game-changer. But it’s looking at the telltale signs in terms of client feedback. And this refers back to what I said at the very start of the podcast is like, the greatest gift that this journey of transforming your body has is making yourself aware. Because the big thing that I need from people is, how do you actually feel so like being aware of your own body and how certain foods make you feel how your energy is, how your mood is how your digestion is, and then passing that feedback on. So then I can make an informed decision for the client. And that is based upon my own opinion, and then anecdotal experience working with 1000s of people, but that’s an excellent example in terms of how we will look to manipulate things if that makes sense.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, I love asking, having you as a guest, because typically the people that I work with are exhausted and burnt out. And there, they’re not at the luxury of wanting their body fat to go below 10. They’re just wanting to get out of bed and be able to make sure they clean the house. But I think it’s a great example of let’s just assume you did have the ability to do all this. It’s all the details in the minutiae of all the small little things in terms of timing and, and percentages and ratios, and, most importantly, actually contracting the muscle and moving and bringing oxygen and blood flow. And I think it’s a really important lesson for people listening, like, obviously, you’re not going to just transport yourself into this conversation and be right and commensurate where we are. But it should be informative to them that hey, like if, like, we’re not even talking about people that are burnt out, we’re talking about people that are wanting to get their levels of body fat lower, because they are doing the basics, they’re exercising, they’re eating healthy, they’re removing crap from their diet, they’re so it’s a really great lesson that we’re talking about, as far as when you have someone that is, has a lot of mental stuff going on in terms of stress in life, and relationships, and maybe even health issues that are part of your coaching clients. How, what’s your approach with that, Charlie? When like, okay, like we are dialing in, you know, the easy ones are the ones that we don’t have to change anything, it’s working for them. But the tough ones are, it’s not working for them. And it comes down to more than just the macros and it’s maybe as you guys mentioned, the bollocks. It’s all that other stuff that’s going on. So how do you deal with that?   Charlie Johnson: So this is where the big thing in life, you can’t go. If you want to achieve success, you’re generally not gonna go there alone. And that’s where it comes down to having accountability and support and community around you. So it’s actually quite poignant, have this conversation today. So last night, we had a chap called john Fleming who is basically a performance psychologist, he someone I worked with personally. And I think more people should talk about mental health and optimizing the way they think and feel. So john does cause for us once a month with all the clients is like an open format. And then we also have we have a very interactive and supportive community of clients and coaches as well. And that’s very much where people lean on each other and take inspiration from each other because people will share their own journey. So within the Facebook group that I’ve had x problems going on this week, I’ve got an addiction to x y Zed, however, I’ve still managed to get back on track and then people see it’s one of the things like if you see someone else’s done what you want to do, and they’ve got the same situation you do like I could do this, like, it’s that realization. And that comes back to saying earlier, like, my gift is giving people the confidence to go and fulfill their maximum potential. because realistically, we can all, within reason achieve what we want. But we can achieve the greatest version of ourselves. But we hold ourselves back within our own limiting beliefs. And we just need to always like, like, release ourselves from the shackles sometimes and have that confidence to really go for it. Whereas we stay too much in the shadows, and almost just like, play it safe too much. And that’s where the big thing is, for most people, is the hardest bit with anything is say, for example, reaching out to you, Joe for, for help being like I’m stressed and rundown or to me to get into shape, or whoever it might be. That’s the hardest bit is that first step and asking for helping initially engage in that conversation. And then once you’ve taken that first step is then easy for me to guide the person through their journey or you. And that’s really what we’re here to do in life. Like I as a person. I’m a product of coaching, I have coaching for every different aspect of my life, basically, because I see life as a weird game of like skill acquisition now and like an improvement, and I take fulfillment from progression. And the fastest way to progress with no stress is by having people support you along the way who have been there and maybe done what you want to do. And then them giving you the structure of the systems to follow. And the big thing for anyone listening who has anxiety or stress and like these are all things like a year ago, I was a bit of an anxious mess, to be honest with you because I was trying to do too many things and didn’t have a structure in my life or whatever. And as soon as you have everything structured and systematized and you turn up to the gym, you know what workout you’re gonna do, you turn up at work, and you know, you’re supposed to be doing straight away, you get up in the morning, you know what works for us to be doing, you know, it’s supposed to be in that day, you don’t have you take away some of these decisions you have to have, and you get rid of some of the decision fatigue, and then life becomes quite simple. From then onwards, that would be my input on that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s a great, great, lots of nuggets in there, Charlie, cuz the first nugget that I think about is crabs in the bucket, you know, they want to pull you down when you start to get out of there. And that’s the trap of people that go to these support groups, which I think are great in that it gives them information. But you have to be careful of who you surround yourself with, even if you’re getting information because as you start to come out of that, that challenge, you may get some people that are married to their identity. And they’re not. They don’t realize consciously that they’re not able to change or they’re not willing to change or they’ve embraced or identified with that label. And, and so the on the flip side, it’s that much more important to surround yourself with people that want to uplift you. And surround yourself with those people. And I agree to the first step is always the hardest step, it’s looking in the mirror, and realizing your faults, and being willing to make the necessary changes. So that is really great information. There was a couple of things that I wanted to say too, but I forgot. As far as one of the curveballs I wanted to throw you through as women, you know, and I was a trainer for many years as well. Women will always say, Well, I don’t want to lift weights. I don’t want to get muscular.   Charlie Johnson: You know, are you gonna say that for you say that?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. So So as far as like, a lot of my clients that I work with are women. And I’ve encouraged them to work out. And, you know, I get so frustrated when I go to the gym and I see really overweight women that are on the Stairmaster or you know, and they’re not doing any weights, and I just, I don’t go up to them, I wish I could and just say, Hey, listen, I want to I’m telling you this from like, the bottom of my heart of wanting to help you, but we could use a couple of muscle contractions as well. Because that you know, so anyway, so as far as what do we tell women that that are overweight, and they’re going to the gym, and they’re watching their diet, and all they’re doing is cardio because they don’t want to, quote-unquote, get really muscular. So how do you approach that? Or I would imagine, you don’t even have to approach that because people that see you can already know that.   Charlie Johnson: It’s this is probably one of the most frustrating things and like, I don’t know, I thought this throwaway bio, I think about my mom straight away, because my mom’s got osteoporosis, and she’s got Scottish as a spine and loads of things. And like, for example, I’ve said to her for ages, you’d be doing some form of resistance training because that’s a great way to combat some of these things. And a little bit off-topic in terms of from a longevity point of view when people say people have died from old age, generally that’s because they’ve become weak and feeble. And one of the main reasons people actually die is that unfortunately not be morbid is that say, for example, your elderly and your Walking and you fall over. Because you’re weak, you break your hip, and then you go into hospital, you end up dying from some sort of complication. And unfortunately, it’s a reality. So like forget weight loss or looking good for the beach or anything like that, if you want to be around and you want to be around for a long time, keeping this vessel we have for life, which is our body, fit and strong is going to put you in good stead, that’d be the first thing I’d say. I’d also say it’s not actually that easy to gain a lot of muscle mass, and particularly if you’re a woman because your hormonal profile isn’t aligned to gaining a lot of muscle tissue I’ve been trying for a long time. And trust me, it’s not that easy. And, like, with women, and Gen people, generally, we need to get away with this thought process when it comes to fat loss and food and exercise and calories have a debit credit approach in terms of, okay, I’ve eaten 300 calories, therefore, I need to do 300 calories on the step mill to burn them off. Like that is not the right thought process, what we actually want to do is create, make our body a fertile environment for fat burning and lean muscle growth to change our body composition. And we’re going to be able to do that by as I was saying earlier in the podcast and proving our physical capabilities in terms of our performance. So I’m not saying that women want to go out there and we’re going to squat 100 kilos for 50 reps or whatever it is. But you want to try and improve your own personal strength and fitness levels. Because you will then be able to if you add more lean muscle tissue, you will change the shape of your physique, because we’ll all know, there’s a skinny guy who looks like he just looks like a skinny fat guy, and he’s skinny. And you see women who are stuck thin and they still haven’t got the body they want, it’s because they haven’t got the muscle tissue to have the shape they need. So even if your goal is okay, I’m overweight, but I want to have an awesome bikini body. Guess what you still need to weight training resistance training, because without any muscle tissue in your frame you’ve just had you have no shape. So that’s the first thing we want to think about if that’s your goal. But when it comes to actually, resistance training, there are so many benefits. And I’m sure you’ve probably shared these before. But in terms of the way your body utilizes fuel, food for fuel, in terms of improving your BMR it’s a bit different. So your basal metabolic rate, in terms of calories you can eat daily. And a lot of these you can’t even there’s not necessarily studies or formulas that the previous work. But I can say from my own experience where I’ve had women come to me who have been overweight, eating like 1300 100 calories a day. And then 12 months later, they’re like four stone lighter, they’re eating 1000 calories a day more, and then paying half the amount of cardiovascular work. And like, there isn’t really any studies or research to necessarily explain, like to give you a specific as to why that happens. But it’s easy, you’re just setting your body up to work the way it wants to work optimally. Rather than you’re almost trying to drive a car and empty which is what I see a lot of people doing, they try to say, particular women will try and do a, like a gimmicky juice diet or Spanish diet or whatever that’s like 1000 calories a day. And then they’ll try and burn 1000 calories a day doing cardiovascular work. And then what actually ends up happening is you’re shooting yourself in the foot because week one, week two, you’ll lose weight. Week Three, your body’s adapting, like I was saying earlier to everything you’re doing your metabolisms down regulating everything slowing down, your body’s basically going Holy shit, we’re into starvation mode here, and it’s clinging on to body fat for dear life. And then guess what happens? As soon as you start trying to eat anything normal, your body weight will balloon back up because your body’s like, Oh my god, we’ve got calories. Again, let’s store these calories because we don’t know where the next starvation is coming. And if you think about it, that simple analogy if you were looking at the desert now in Dubai if you’re in the desert, and you had no food, you and you couldn’t you were in a calorie deficit the two-three weeks, you’d want your metabolism to do slow down to keep you alive. And that’s essentially what’s happening when you start to strip it that back to that sort of the basic point of view. And then the client starts to understand that and they understand, okay, I actually need to sometimes eat more to get better results. It’s a little face like a penny drop moment or Mic drop moment.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it’s a lot of paradigm shifts. And as far as that is a metabolic priming approach for sure. And as far as what I tell clients is, I think Adrenal Fatigue is a terrible term because the adrenals don’t actually stop putting out cortisol and they’re exhausted. If they do they call that adrenal insufficiency and it’s an autoimmune disease, but there are Shades of Grey, but what I do tell people is at the end of the day, you have a demand and supply problem. You’re not producing energy at the level that your body needs to meet the demands of your daily basis. And the problem is, is that mitochondrial Lee at the mitochondrial level, your body is not the power of the cell, they’re not producing energy. And we’ll know a better way on that knowledge to increase mitochondria by doing muscle contraction, as well. So there’s that whole the whole aspect. As far as Did your mom start exercising with weights?   Charlie Johnson: it’s one of those things that your neighbor list is silly, but my brother’s a little bit overweight as well. And like he’s trying to lose weight again. And I try and help to try to guide the people who are closest to you. Sometimes it’s a tricky one.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That Yeah, that is good. That’s a very diplomatic answer. Yeah, I know that I know the same thing. Because, you know, my sister’s a real doctor. And I am a holistic chiropractic doctor. And whenever I tell my father about what I do, and what he should do, it goes in one ear, and it goes out the other year, the people that you know, even my kids, like, I have a son who has some health challenges, and we did testing on him. And, you know, it’s hard to have that compliance with the family members. I remember going to visit my dad not too long ago, and he was in, he’s on kidney dialysis. And they were serving just Wonder Bread, which is horrible on its own, with margarine, and it was like, like margarine you could leave out in the woods for 50 years, and it would still be intact, you know? And it’s like, if I tell him like, my advice on that is like, I don’t know what my doctor said, my, my doctor says, it’s okay. Tres,   Charlie Johnson: I could I can go down that rabbit hole all day long. It’s my front of my family live in Spain. And it’s even worse.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So it’s Yeah, yeah, well, it’s good. I mean, it’s a lesson for you to like, eat, when people want to get help, they’ll get help, you know, and when they reach a lot of the times it’s reactionary, right, it’s at that point where they are given life, you know, a life sentence in terms of, Hey, your health and your how long you have to live and you have this illness. And that’s when they want to do something about it, unfortunately. So so in parting, Charlie, I always ask this question, what would the wise sort of sage Charlie tell the bright-eyed and bushy tail? Charlie, I mean, you learned a lot along the way. And it’s kind of a question that if you didn’t have to go through all those things, maybe you wouldn’t have learned all the things you did to be able to tell the wise and, you know, tell that naive, Charlie, but that being said, What would you have told your younger self, that would have gotten you quicker, faster, further, in terms of health and wellness that you didn’t know, then?   Charlie Johnson: Three things I’m going to say. So point number one is Don’t believe everything you read, or you see is factual, like we were just saying about doctors. So the amount of poor advice I’ve seen given to family members or people generally, in the last 24 months is astounding. And there’s a lot of weird things in the news at the moment but there could behold on the podcast. And point number two would be to drop the ego because I think when as a young man, it’s very easy to have an ego thinking, you know, at all. And just because something’s taken you so far, doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s something else that could take you there faster to the next level. And the last thing I’d say is that, for me, what’s helped me really accelerate everything in my life, the last 24 months, will be the biggest tip, I recommend to anyone, I’m not trying to plug anyone to coach with me or you or whoever is if you want to go if you want to achieve something, and you want to get results quickly, the fastest way to get there is to go to someone who knows how to get you the results. And he’s been there and done it over and over again. And the real telltale point is to think about, okay, what happens if I spend six to 12 months, working as hard as I can, but going completely the wrong direction, doing the wrong thing, you’re not only completely wasted a year of your life, you’re never going to get back, you’ve also wasted a hell of a lot of money and investment within that. So that’s something that almost is why I’m hell-bent on a mission to learn to level up at the moment, because I feel probably from 18 to even maybe 28, maybe 10 years. I just wasn’t open-minded. And that’s enough as I am now. And now I literally just try and be like a sponge and absorb everything from anyone and try and go to the best people in the world within specific niches and specific fields and pull and extract information from them. So then I can use that to help improve myself and the lives of the people I work with.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, those are great answers. I know cheap is expensive and when you can leapfrog and invest. You know, I always tell people that story of like, Okay, if I’m in Florida and if I want to get to California I can have different ways of getting there. And if I take a bus or I take a plane, the plane is going would be a lot more expensive, but I’m going to be buying time. And with that buying of time, I’ll be able to have a return on investment. And there’s a lot of paradoxes and shifts in terms of what we’ve talked about. Because you’ll leave an echo, I’m sure when you have clients who are, who are tired or who, what I tell them is like, you have to exercise. Well, I’m too tired to exercise. And I will, that’s why the more you exercise, the more you’ll have energy. And so there are all these sorts of flipping these sacred cows on their side with what we’re talking about. I appreciate everything that you’ve sent today and shared. And there’s no success leaves clues, as you know, and you could see a lot of clues in why you’re doing so well, personally, and why you have such an amazing community that you’re making huge transformations with. So where do we see how do we find out more about you? And when you go to your website, you’ll see these transformations, and they’re quite awesome. So give our listeners How do they hear more about you and get in contact with you.   Charlie Johnson: The best thing to do is my main social media platforms, mainly Instagram. So if you reach out to me at Charlie Johnson fitness, if you found this episode of the podcast helpful, please make sure you share your stories, and tag both I and Joe will be cool. And drop Feel free to drop me a message with questions. I’ve also got my own podcast, which is called the shredder show. We’ve got tons of educational information on there. talk you through a lot of the stuff we talked through today in more detail. And I’ve also got my own YouTube channel which is charged on some fitness. There’s lots of cool helpful content on there. And yeah, I’ve got my websites there, Charlie Johnson fitness calm. So if anyone wants any help with anything, feel free to reach out and, and yet the podcast, YouTube channel, Instagram, I’ve got tons of helpful content out there to help you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Charlie. And what time are you there now? What’s the time over?   Charlie Johnson: 6 pm so we’re just warming up for the evening.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, well, awesome. Well, listen, I appreciate your time. And perhaps we get back on another call for part two. But thank you so much for everything that you shared with me and I wish you fruit future success, Charlie.   Charlie Johnson: Thank you. Pleasure.   To learn more about Charlie, and his program click here   The post Body Transformation and Exercise For The Fatigued appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

  Dr. Joel Rosen: Alright, Hello everyone and welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m really excited to join up forces with my next guest, MacKay Rippey. He’s graduated from the Maryland University for Integrative Health and was one of the first acupuncturists in the country to hold a master’s degree in acupuncture. He’s been helping clients feel better, with the five-element acupuncture for more than 25 years. And he’s just a wealth of information he got into the world of nutrigenomics. And, and how to become a detective in recovering from chronic illness. So, McKay, thank you so much for being here today.   Mackay Rippey: I’m so happy to be here, Joel.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, well, it’s me too. And we were talking a little bit earlier about how excited I was to not just present this information to my audience but to be able to pick up some really great clinical pearls along the way for myself. So we always start McKay with understanding your story in terms of why did you become an acupuncturist? How did you get focused on the world of Lyme and potentially LOTE, knowing that there’s not one protocol that fits all? And it really requires understanding all of that. But there’s got to be a story from you in terms of a health challenge and why you got into this in the first place.   Mackay Rippey:  All right, you’re sure you want to go through this right?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, yeah, we have, we only have we have three hours.   Mackay Rippey: So let’s go because I was thinking about that addition is like, Holy smokes, I’m that dude. Now, because I started studying acupuncture in 1989. Now, that means I’m no longer young, right, I started, I was the youngest person in my class, I was used to being really young. And I stumbled, I’m going to say, stumbled across acupuncture. It was a Cosmas, either a cosmic joke, or it was divine intervention. And I’ll let you decide which one it was. My father was a patient of acupuncture and had some information around the house about acupuncture. And I would come home from studying English literature at St. Mary’s College, Southern Maryland. And Alex kind of lost, initially thought I was going to study physics. And then I discovered physics was just calculus in the skies. And I wasn’t that interested in math. So I need some sort of skill. I thought I learned how to write and become an English major so that that’s where it was at the time. So I’m reading this information on acupuncture, and just become absolutely fascinated by the theory of it. Not so much helping people just the theory of it. And one of the things that caught my attention, my mom’s struggle with bipolar all her life, like hospitalized bipolar, serious, serious mental illness, and the doctors always say, Oh, it’s just simply a chemical imbalance in her brain. And once we rebalance these chemicals, she’ll be fine. Of course, she was never fine. The chemicals were never imbalanced. Though in the back of my mind, I always had a healthy disrespect, let’s say, for the medical profession, and along comes acupuncture. And they’re basically saying that that ancient Chinese ancient Taoist idea that if you obey the laws of nature, you will be healthy. Okay, okay, that’s interesting, what are the laws of nature, so then they start expounding on them, right? And it’s all the stuff you talk about, over and over again, in your podcasts and your materials on your website and with your, with your patients. It does you go to sleep on time, eat the right foods, eat the right foods in the right seasons, keep your emotions in check. Don’t let stress build up with you all these things, right? Just the basics. And this intrigued me to no end. Because I was a city boy, I grew up in Washington DC, right? We had cement for a front yard right on the sidewalk. We had a bus stop in front of our house. That’s our city we were and I happened to go to school and this lovely   state in it was a Montessori school. So there are these magnificent gardens with azaleas and rhododendrons and all kinds of wildlife. So I had this contrast between nature this idealized nature and my cement city sidewalk. So that’s what got me interested, the lack of effectiveness the medical community had with my mom, and that there’s another way. So I went to study acupuncture. And at first, they turned me away. They said You’re too young. I was still in college at the time when implied you’re going to be talking with very much senior people who are going to have types of illnesses that you’ve never even heard about and have no sympathy for. So Go away, come back in a year or two when you’ve lived. So I came back the next year. And they said, you again, I said, Yes, I’m still interested in acupuncture. They said, okay, you’re still really young, and what behind the ear. So if you stay for an extra year, and so we can observe you in our clinic and make sure you’re not an idiot, we’ll go ahead and let you matriculate. But I didn’t quite get my financial part lined up that year. So now I come back to the third year, right. This is a quintessential Chinese apprentice story. So I come back the third year knocking on the door, and they go, Oh, it’s you again. And by that time, I had gotten married, we got married very young. So now I’m married. Now I’m three years older, and they say, okay, you’re clearly serious about acupuncture, we think we can work with you. So that’s how I started my acupuncture career. And like you said, In the introduction, I was one of the first people in the country to get a master’s degree, back then people, you’d still run into people and they’d never heard of acupuncture. They say, what’s that? Now at least everybody knows it has something to do with needles, even though they may not know exactly what’s going on. Everybody’s heard of it. So fast forward. So I’m doing my acupuncture thing over the year learning about how people’s life and lifestyle and their pasts, lifestyle all intersected the moment, and how to use needles to get them unstuck get them to rebalance, help their bodies heal again. And we moved to Central New York, which happens to be a hotspot for Lyme disease. And, like so many other communities, the medical, the established medical community is just behind, I don’t hold them accountable for it, because they’re just doing what their associations and their educational pipeline teach them to do. But there, they’re still behind the times at least now they’re starting to order tests. And even though the tests aren’t any good, anyway, so as I said, I better get in front of this. I had a friend of mine from school who’s an expert in Lyme disease, I started studying Lyme disease. The more I read, the more I was confused by it. So similar to you, I started a podcast and the podcast is called Live ninja radio. And I haven’t done a new episode in about a year, I stopped after about five years. And that was because it became very clear dill, that there’s not one single answer for chronic Lyme disease, there’s no one protocol that’s going to do it. I started a local support group here for Lyme disease. And there are a couple of people in the support group who just really still struggle, and they have seen literally everybody who’s got a name and a book and been on television about Lyme disease, right? they’ve been to everybody and they’re still suffering. So like what, what’s the deal with this? Well, the deal is that Lyme disease, chronic fatigue, adrenal fatigue, mold exposure, environmental toxins, we could go down a list, it’s now it’s, we’re starting to hear the COVID, long haulers, right. Things happen. Build up in a person system, right? We’re going back to the Chinese ideal, we stopped following the laws of nature, right? We get overwhelmed with what our lives put upon us what the world puts on us what nature puts on us, and we just collapse and we’re unable to rebuild where Humpty Dumpty was unable to rebuild without some serious attention. So instead of using my podcast, to try and find the person who’s got the right answer, it became clear that what we needed to do is needed to train medical detectives, we needed people who could look at the genetics, who could look at organic acids test who could look at hormone markers, who could look at blood markers, and begin to weave together an understanding of what’s happening for this bio-individual person in front of them, and then begin to make appropriate interventions. And then to see what works and what doesn’t, and to have Plan B if things don’t work to have a plan B. And if Plan B doesn’t work, have a plan C, because if you just have one protocol, here’s my line protocol. And this is what you’re doing. These are the herbs and these are you do it. If things don’t work. You’re out of luck. You’re just you’re sunk. So we this idea, I love the way you said the medical detective. So now I started a platform called Beyond protocols and we are training functional medicine people like you. Matter of fact, I should invite you, we should bring you on. I’m going to give you a pass you can come and join us for it and check us out and see if you like it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: We need to continue the interview anymore. It’s served its purpose. I got that invite.   Mackay Rippey: We’re all we’re all done right? So But anyway, that’s not the purpose of being here just dawned on me it’s like Hey, cool, we haven’t even buddy you’d be on there. But anyway, so that’s the progression, right? So this idea that nature has a plan, nature has an organization to it, health has an organization to it. And if we understand that we can Biohack ourselves, right, the Daoists were the original biohackers. And here we are 2000 years later. And they’re new insults, but they’re basically the same, they cause the same problem. And so much of it ends with fatigue. So I’ll stop my little soapbox. History there. Let you ask some questions.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Lots of interesting feedback on that, McCain, thanks for sharing, I have a similar experience with my mom and bipolar as well. So perhaps that explains our gravitational pull towards each other takes one to know one in the sense. But as far as I would agree, what’s really great about what you said is sort of the mental software that you made sense to you, right from the very beginning head, I didn’t really want to do the acupuncture, but I was fascinated by the concept of it. And in today’s day and age, with environmental triggers that are, are beyond what we even realize, and like our mentor, Bob Miller says, I think someday we’ll look back at this and say, whoops, you know, and understand that this has really been problematic, because when you have that perfect storm of these environmental triggers, overlapping with genetic potentials, that can create the break weak, weak links in the chains, and that would result in at this at the cellular level fatigue, where you can’t meet the demands daily. And your body decides, okay, well, here’s what we got to keep the lights on. And we got to do this, but we’re not going to be able to do that. And I think that makes sense to people and I think that it’s the time has come where common sense, which is typically not so common, will be more accepted, right? Because Yeah, it makes sense that I’m a creature of the earth. And over the millennia, my DNA has evolved and become sophisticated. And that could work for me or against me. And ultimately, I have to understand how to harness that and not just reductionistic we say okay, I take this or take that and expect that to be a one-size-fits-all and hence the beyond protocol. So yes, I agree with everything you said there, MacKay. So as far as to let’s dive into the line, because when I initially asked you to do this podcast, he’s like, well, what would you like to talk about? I like to talk about everything, you know, I want to talk about Lyme disease and how that overlaps with fatigue and how you become a medic. What a medical detective, gathers clues and Usual Suspects and, and, and then also like some things that aren’t on our radar yet in the traditional approaches, and even the alternative worlds like inflammatory cytokines and how we signal so why don’t we kind of just start from a one on one on that. In terms of Lyme disease, and how we go about becoming a metal, medical detective, and all the considerations we need to think about.   Mackay Rippey: Okay, before, I’m gonna do that, I’m going to tell the story first. Okay. As I think this is an important story, and the story illustrates how things have changed in a generation or two. And before COVID, where we are we have this wonderful outdoor theater, they do mostly opera, but some musicals called Glimmerglass, it’s, it’s, it’s really world-famous. And every year we go catch a matinee at Glimmerglass and we’re there we have a picnic lunch before there. So we’re sitting down at the picnic tables, and most of the people going to the opera are older than I am, right. It’s an older set. Let’s say that there’s a picnic table of people who grew up in the 50s. And they’ve got their potato salad and potato chips and sandwiches, kind of almost you expecting like the jello mold to come out. It’s like that, that generation of people, they’re all fit. They all look healthy, right? And I’m looking over at their table and I’ve got basically my keto lunch. If I ate as they did, I would weigh 250 pounds and I’m, I like to say five, eight, but five eights being generous. I’m, I’m a short Italian man, right? That’s kind of the genes that came through my side. If I ate like that, I would weigh 250 pounds, I would be amazingly obese. So something has shifted in the culture and whether it’s my gut, whether that’s other exposures to things like glyphosate over time, who knows exactly what it is, but I can’t eat like that. My father can eat like that he lives nearby, we eat with him a lot. He can eat like that. And he’s fine. For the most part, right? If I like that my metabolism goes all to heck. So Lyme disease to tie this back to Lyme disease. So Lyme disease is one of these things that I think has been with us for a long time. spire keyed infections have been a long time they, they dug up Otzi The Iceman in Austria, and he’s 5000 years old, or some are 3000 years old. And sure enough, he had Lyme disease buried inside him that they were able to find he had dead spire keys, so he had Lyme disease. So Lyme disease has been around forever. But why is it such a big deal now? And there’s there are a lot of things, why is mold such a big deal now, right? So what we’re dealing with are these chronic low-grade infections. And maybe it’s just that we’re living longer, right? Maybe that, you know, people used to die of the flu, and we don’t die of the flu anymore, we hang around longer. So it’s now these more low-grade slow-burning infections. But as you said, these stealth infections and Lyme disease is just the poster child of this, this whole series of immune insults that the body has to deal with, you know, whether it’s a virus, again, whether it’s a mycotoxin, leftover from previous mold exposure, whether it’s a current mold exposure, you have mold colonized in your gut, or your lungs or your sinuses, right or wasn’t, some people get into like crayons, but those tend to kill you pretty quickly. So there are all kinds of things that affect our immune system, and, and trigger it chronically. And they set up a very similar set of symptoms. Matter of fact, if you kind of go through the mold, and mycotoxins and Lyme and viral, you’ll see a very similar set of symptoms that show up and one of the big ones is fatigue. And why is that? Well, that’s because fundamentally, when we get sick, initially, the body shuts down and by the country. That’s interesting. The body doesn’t want to use energy with the mitochondria and wants to spend the energy on the immune system. And number two, the mitochondria produce a fair amount of antioxidants. And one of the ways that the body uses to clear invaders, pathogens is with oxidants, it creates oxidants, like superoxide, it produces nitric oxide, which is an oxidant and produces peroxynitrite. It produces things very similar to bleach, internally, hydrogen peroxide, so all these things do some damage. So if you pile this on top of what the body’s naturally already creating, it’s going to create unnecessary damage. But what’s supposed to happen is the body then clear these radiate conquers the invader, it puts it back in its place, it removes it, or makes it go dormant again, and then we kind of go on our merry way. Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to be happening with a certain subset of people, right, the COVID long haulers, the chronic Lyme disease people, the people that you see in your practice that have the chronic fatigue, and often I really believe underneath it all, is some sort of insult to the immune system that got it triggered, and it can’t stand down. It can’t turn itself back off again.   Dr. Joel Rosen:  Yeah, it’s a great, great, great answer. And the COVID, long haulers, the chronic Lyme, the chronic fatigue, they all have these threads of connections, which, which we’re going to get into here in a second. And ultimately, I do feel like if we can harness the danger response in the body and understand it, then we can come up with the medical detective solutions to be able to, again, I think this is an important preface in terms of, it’s not just going to be a slam dunk, Mrs. Jones, and you’re going to do this and that’s it. That’s all these are all the potentials that we figured out and isolated and customized for you. But the real work begins when we establish the implementation of it and realize that there are so many moving parts and one of the main moving parts is the actual Goldilocks and not too much and not too little as well. Right. So we were contending with a lot of different things. Okay. And so as far as the actual what we know about what happens with stimulating of our immune response and the signaling of in our, in my world, the HPA axis and the releasing of cortisol to tame histamine. Why don’t we get into your world now in terms of okay We educate practitioners to become medical detectives? Let’s look at the line, epigenetic major factor, and kind of build out a roadmap from there. Does that make sense?   Mackay Rippey: I’ll do my best. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense, and hope I can fulfill on the roadmap won’t get us lost along the way.   Dr. Joel Rosen:  Here we go. Oh, actually, before we do that, just a real quick little question in terms of I asked a lot of my guests, especially in the world of nutrigenomics, and functional genetic interpretations, which basically means looking at our inherent genetic potentials to figure out how to customize a recovery program. What would be your 32nd explanation of saying of asking if, if it’s a valuable test? Because a lot of doctors will say, like, you know, I don’t see why you need to understand that. And you all you need to do is, okay, take methyl Foley, because it’s an MTHFR thing like, how what do you say to people that have ignorance on the utility of a functional genomic test? And how indispensable or dispensable it is for your medical detective the answering the next question.   Mackay Rippey: So I have a little inside baseball, I know that you just interviewed my colleague, Emily Gibbler. And she’s the one who really, I got into this through Bob Miller, just like you did. And he was kind enough to take me under his wing a little bit and show me the ropes. And at one of his conferences, I heard Emily present. And Emily Gibbler, for those of you who don’t know, is just this amazing practitioner, who, because of the way her brain works, has synthesized and organized an understanding of functional genetics. And we’re going to distinguish that from a kind of normal genetics. So the way a doctor normally looks at a genetic test is they want to run a bunch of tests, they want to find out which specific variant equals a disease, and that’s what they’re happy with. So, you know, a specific variant means that you’re more susceptible to celiac disease, a specific disease variant means that you’re more likely to have high cholesterol, a specific variant means that you’re more likely to have breast cancer, and that’s where they stop. It’s like, it’s they’re looking for this one-to-one correspondence. What we’re looking for in the functional world are patterns. And even, let’s say patterns upon patterns. And that’s what fascinated that’s, that’s how an acupuncturist, right, I’m an acupuncturist, you know, I hug trees, that’s what we do, right? We’re where we come from so far away from biochemistry, that it’s amazing. But here I am in the biochem, I’ve got a foot in both worlds. And that because I recognize what Bob was doing, what Emily’s doing, what you’re doing joke, is that you’re looking for patterns in the genetics and the symptomatology and the test results. And looking for what these patterns indicate. So here’s another short story. As I’d mentioned, I went to St. Mary’s College in Southern Maryland, and we were lucky enough to be on the St. Mary’s River. So one of the gym classes was sailing. And anybody who didn’t take sailing for a gym credit was just brain-addled in my mind. So I’m taking sailing. And we’ve got this world-class sailor, who’s teaching us and he says, Can you see the wind? And we all laugh, right? We said that no, it’s a wind invisible. He says, No, you can see it as a What do we what are you talking about? He says you can see its effects. said you need if you’re good sailor is looking around and seeing what the winds doing so we can take advantage of it. So you’re looking for the ripples on the water, you’re looking for the tail tails at the top of the mast, you’re looking for gusts of winds that are happening across on the other bank, and the trees on the other side of the river, things like that. So that’s what we’re looking for. With functional genomics with these functional tests. We’re looking for the effects of the patterns that have been established inside the person. And while they’re very similar, there can be slight variants there and that helps us untie, you know what, what is causing the initial perturbation? Is it mold, toxins? Or is it something like an infection like Lyme disease, and it’s important to know because it gets better you need to remove the issue, right? If a person has a chronic infection, and you just Detox Detox, detox, you may get them a little better, but the infections rage on. Likewise, if somebody has toxicity, particular, and a genetic problem in a mold detox pathway and not all mycotoxins are detoxes the same way, so it’s important to know which one, let’s say glucuronidation pathway. So if you have a problem with a glucuronidation pathway, and you have a mycotoxin, that needs to be cleared out through the glucuronidation pathway, and the person has Lyme disease, you can throw antibiotics at the Lyme disease forever. And you’ve heard the stories where people are on antibiotics seemingly forever, and they don’t get better, because it’s more of a toxicity issue. And that’s where reading these patterns that are seemingly invisible, right, until you understand that, no, we can look at the effects. So that’s what we’re doing with genomic nutrition. That’s what we’re doing with this genome functional genomic medicine. That’s what we’re doing with beyond protocols.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, awesome answer. And I’ll tell you, I had that epiphany just the other day because I am met with controversy from other doctors that say it’s not important. And I always say, It upsets me when you’re dogmatic in one sense, but also ignorant in the other and vehement about saying it’s not helpful, just say you don’t know, you know, I’ve always said that versus saying it’s not helpful. But you know, I’m like Forrest Gump shrimp like I, how many ways can I make shrimp, I listened to these over and over and over again, I got a harness my OCD in some kind of way. So I listened to them over and over and over again, McKay and Bob Miller are training modules. And every time you hear it, you hear something new, right? Because, yes, you’ve commensurate to your knowledge, as the practitioner, you’ve seen one, one to one respect responses, and then you get this little nugget of Oh, my gosh, this brings everything together. And as far as one of the epiphanies I had is, it’s not so much the genetics itself, even if it is a functional assembly line that’s in 3d, and you have to understand substrates and inhibitors, and, and promoters, and genetic polymorphisms. And all of the above. But ultimately, as you said, it’s the patterns, it’s the ability to understand how all of these cells are coordinated, and, and how to come up with a game plan. That’s feasible and precise, like, and most importantly, effective, right? Because these, these are really stealth, perfect storm, all of the variables, check on the list. And at the end of the day, you have debilitating chronic illness of people that can’t function and are just getting sicker and sicker and sicker. So, I agree with you. And so I, the way I explained that genetic test is it just, it gives us information, how to help you the best, it’s not just to say, Hey, we got to reductionistic, we give you this supplement for this gene, we got to figure out lifestyle, mindset, you know, a dietary, and then if we can implement nutritional strategies, but I’m sure you’re in that same boat of, we have a slippery slope of giving nutritional strategies because we want to help them so much. And then the next thing you know, we look at what we’re taking. It’s like, this is ridiculous. There are too many things going on here. So So McKay and with that, let’s kind of dive into Okay, now someone’s coming to see you. And you are this medical detective, you’ve been able to open up the blueprint of the predispositions and potentials. And you understand that they have suspected Lyme and they’re exhausted, they’re fatigued. They have typical Mo, they’ve tried antibiotics, and they need McKay to give them some hope, and some direction, what do you do from there?   Mackay Rippey: So it depends. So I have as an acupuncturist, I have a toolbox right there. There are various treatments that we have that I’m going to use kind of jump between ancient Chinese philosophy and kind of your understanding we have treatments that reset the cell danger response and also kind of reset some mental patterns that I think gets stuck. And so I hit those pretty hard, in the beginning, to see if we can’t just jump-start the person’s physiology. Like, let me give them tell the story. I have this patient right now. And right now, our strategies were rebuilding her gut, but her gut is so sensitive that we have to go less than a crawl, right? We have to go. She can handle a little bit of a probiotic one or two days out of the week any more than that it just suffers tremendously with gut pain and bloating. So and she’s been on. She came to me initially with psychiatric symptoms, right? Major anxiety she even had a Couple of suicidal events, I mean, things were getting really, really bad. And with this all, she had major gut issues, she got to the point where she could only eat one certain salad out of core life, she would go to Coralife at lunchtime, get her salad, eat some for lunch, and then eat some for dinner. And it was just like one single salad like they knew her by name. They had her stuff ready for her. And that’s all she ate for about a year and a half. So imagine that your entire life food-wise is down to one menu choice. And in a restaurant, it’s just it was just it’s mind-blowing. Right. So there’s clearly a gut piece to this. So after treating for a little bit, it becomes clear to me I suspect Lyme disease, I said we need to start treating you for Lyme disease. And she’s kind of onboard. Her family definitely wasn’t on board. But they took her to a local Lyme literate doctor. So the line letter doctor got the test and kind of took over treatment. So I lost control of where this was going. So she goes under the wing of the line litter physician, and they give her antibiotics, increasing variety, and increasing intensity up to she had a PICC line inserted, right all the way. And she’s doing antibiotics now for nine months. And she doesn’t get better. In fact, she gets maybe a little bit worse. And her main complaint is fatigue. She is sleeping near 20 hours a day, right. I’m sure you’ve heard the story before. So she’s finally got to the point where she and her family have decided that they’ve done everything they can do with the Lyme literate physician and no knock on this physician. She’s like, she’s got a certain toolbox. She’s got her protocol, she went through them. But it didn’t work for this person. Right? Because of a lie in this case. It’s my belief. Do I know for a fact? No, I don’t know for a fact. But lime was not the driving factor. Was it a complicating factor? Yes, but it wasn’t the driving factor. And I would not have treated her with antibiotics because her gut was such a mess Anyway, now her gut is a mess time 1000. Right. So the before we can even begin to dress anything else, we’ve got to get her digesting food and getting hurt system, her immune system calms down from the inside out. At this point, if she does have Lyme, right, we can get into the argument of isn’t does Lyme ever go away? I don’t know. Nobody knows for 100% sure. But it’s not the primary factor anymore, right? That’s changed. It’s been at least suppressed by those months and months of antibiotics that she did the right antibiotics for Lyme. But she didn’t do anything to heal this woman’s gut. So now we’re stuck with this gut thing. And so that’s the type of detective work that we’re doing is like what, what, right now is the main issue, what’s going to move the needle the most? Is it the infection? Is it recovering your gut? Is it detoxification? You know, is it a little bit of all of the above? And how and then like you said so brilliantly the Goldilocks, how hard can we push you? Because that’s often a trial and error, right? Do you have an idea we started what I thought was really really gently with her and she was okay? Like we’re starting with a product called he changed his name it was restored Zack Bush’s product, as they call it.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I Forget what it’s called now but you’re an ionic.   Mackay Rippey: or by ion or whatever it is. Anyway, so I said Look, I don’t even the normal dose of this is a teaspoon. I think it’s either teaspoon or tablespoon that I want you to dip the end of the spoon in and just lick the end of the spoon to start with like that’s how gentle we’re going with her. Right. And so she graduated to one drop. Haha. So it is so now she’s doing one drop a day which is still you know if you think of the full doses, a teaspoon or tablespoon whatever that is. That’s a bunch of drops on I’ma drop that is it’s not one. So she’s on less than an infant’s dose of this stuff, right? She is on a convalescent dose of this stuff. she accidentally one day squirted juice using a pump, squirted, like three drops into her mouth, and said, and what the heck, what harm can it do? That knocked her out for about two weeks with gut distension gut pain, Misery. And then once your gut goes or psychiatric issues come back, she gets even more fatigue. It’s just a total wreck. So on one hand, it’s like okay, we’re pretty clear. Now, what when your gut goes wonky, you go wonky, so we need to take care of your gut first. But on the other hand, she lost two weeks, just because he added two drops of this really benign stuff. It’s not even really a probiotic, right. It’s just some fulvic acid, right. It’s just some really basic minerals. There’s, there’s nothing in that stuff. yet. That’s how sensitive these patients can be. It’s, it’s incredible, and most doctors, right and even most clinicians don’t have the patience and the capacity to deal with failure over and over again, to help the He’s patient, but it takes a certain mindset, it takes a certain amount of, I’m gonna call it wisdom, but the experience just to be able to sit, stay calm, calm the patient down and move slowly, slowly. So you can help them and stick to the basics and not get distracted. Because you know, you want to race to the finish line, but healing her gut is going to be a year-long process, it’s not going to happen. You know, some people, you give a probiotic, and they feel better in a couple of weeks. It’s like, Oh, thanks, Doc, I feel great. Those aren’t the people we’re talking about here. And those aren’t the people who are really stuck with adrenal fatigue, right? Those we’re talking about the people who’ve got sensitive systems.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, to a couple of things that that I would like to just summarize that with I we don’t see the easy clients anymore. It’s kind of like Aquaman that puts out that beacon and brings in these different fish and these fish are more complicated than they’ve ever been, I would love to have just taken the probiotic and feel better. The second thing I think is really important that you mentioned is we are I use this analogy a lot and feel free to steal it, or use it and read take it but we are golf pros that are not teaching people that have never swung a club before, that’d be easier, they’re swinging so poorly that we have to get rid of that swing. And there’s all in this analogy, it’s not even the swing, it’s the mental connection to the swing like I know, it’s my swing, and I’m married to my swing, and it identifies that my swing and unlearning that mentally. And that’s where you talked about resetting the brain in the limbic center, which is really key. And then the last thing that I would say, and then not only fixing the broken swing, but you know now teaching that person how to swing effectively and, and so there are two processes there. And then the last thing I would say, which is a real critical pearl for anyone listening, and you’ve I think about Beth O’Hara, when I hear about this in terms of just very sensitive mass cell stimulated clients where even a little bit of fairy dust is enough to blow them out of the water. And so what I say in that instance, is you have really sick cells, your your your voltage gates, and your action potentials and your depolarization of the cell is because it’s sick and leaking calcium in there, it’s less positive, it takes fewer stimuli to cause that action potential. And that causes you to be very hypersensitive or exceed your metabolic capacity very quickly. And the analogy would be if I touch your skin, and you jump off, it’s because your body your cells are sick, and you don’t require a lot of stimuli to overstimulate and reach that problem. So the clinical plan that is, what you said is I get a lot of clients that will say, well, it helped me in the beginning, and then it no longer helped you hear that a lot. Or it blew me out of the water and I just threw the baby out with the bathwater, but there’s no starting slow enough. And I think that’s a really important caveat and a cool tool because a lot of people I’m sure you found are so close yet so far with being in the right arena. But it would have been something as what they as benign as doing a half a cap and even that was too much. So yeah, if you’re hitting stagnant points and you’re listening to this, maybe think about really putting fairy dust on your food or whatever it is that you’re taking. So does that make sense? MacKay?   Mackay Rippey: Yeah, absolutely. The two points are that the first one is there’s a famous and I can’t remember the name of it, tennis Training Center in Siberia, right. And like Anna Kournikova came out there, some other famous Russian people came out of there. And it’s like this just abandoned warehouse, right? It’s ugly, it’s gross. There’s not much going on there. But they trained world-class tennis players. And every single lesson doesn’t matter if you just walked in the door. Or if you want to the pro tour, they start with what Phantom swings. So they practice swinging an imaginary racket they even put the racket down. So that’s the whole point is like we get attached to, you know, this is the protocol that got me to this point. And, you know, what do we know is it serving sometimes you have to put everything down or most everything down, you can always add it back in. But what got you to a certain point may not get you the whole way through. Like if you’re climbing a mountain you can take so much equipment to the base camp, but you can’t carry that to the summit. You know, you’ve got to change your gear, you got to change your attitude to make it to the summit. So that’s point number one and then point number two was refeeding syndrome and Another friend of mine, a chronic Lyme person, did an amazing job healing yourself. She has a master’s degree in nutrition and was just able to dig through constantly over years and years and years and years and years. And one of the main things that helped her climb back into health are being in a healthier state, what she discovered refeeding syndrome. So, and this was really known after the concentration camps in World War Two. So what happened is the army would come in, they’d see all these starving people and say, Here have a meal and it would kill them. Their bodies were too weak to eat. Right? So then they started to figure Okay, how can we begin to refeed these emaciated really weak people so we don’t overwhelm them. And we can have the same thing happen, we’re not emaciated to that state, right. We don’t look like skeletons. But our metabolisms our mitochondria are that week, where too much of a certain nutrient can just wipe you out metabolically and hurt you, where normally would be a nutrient it becomes a poison. So what you say is, is so very important. And then we forget the basics. Like what, you know, what, what has become depleted after being sick for three years, five years, 10 years? You know, are you are some of these conditionally essential amino acids missing or low? Are we low in potassium? Right? Nobody, nobody gets enough potassium. We don’t even talk about potassium. One, some people think we’re not actually so much sodium excess, as we’re potassium deficient, and we just got our potassium up, we would be fine. So little minerals like electrolytes like that. And again, you can’t just pile it on there, cuz you’ll kill people. So you have to reintroduce these things, remineralize slowly, slowly, like you said, a grain at a time.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, absolutely. And I think if we look back to farming practices, and depletion of our soils and mineral content, I think that is as good a place as any to really start and not be, you know, too, too problematic, given the tenants of as low as you can go, right. So let’s say now someone’s come to see you. And they understand the idea of relearning how to swing properly or unlearning how to swing in properly. And in this case, you’re stressing the importance of the microbial reclaiming the flag of Mackay and planting it in your microbe again, and getting it back. And that will take a lot of time. Are there things that we do simultaneously? Are there? Like, actually one of the things now says we open up the genetic profile? And we see that there’s this chronic, like, you mentioned, inflammatory response? How does your medical detective now take the baton and move to the next relay?   Mackay Rippey: So once we’ve got a little bit of a base to stand on a little bit of solid ground, a little bit of success, and feeling okay, there may be some hope here. That’s when you begin to Okay, what’s the next layer? What’s the next nutrient that’s we’re probably deficient in? And we can look at that in terms of pathways, right is are the genetic variants that are piling up and say, for example, somebody can’t manufacture glutathione well enough, or their cell membranes maybe not as strong as and coherent as they need to be. Because the way they deal with fatty acids or digesting fatty acids, or bringing them into the body aren’t good enough, or they’re some solid carriers, right, some nutrition carriers that aren’t working, as well, as they said. So maybe we need to add in a little bit extra, even beyond what we would normally do for this person. So we begin to look there. And that’s going to vary from person to person, right? Genetics is the framework of the puzzle. you know, if my wife does puzzles all the time, she starts by putting the frame together, right? Find the four corners, find the edge pieces, put them together, and then that, that gives you an idea that allows you to build the puzzle within the frame. And that’s what genetics are doing. Genetics aren’t the entire story, but they allow you to make sense of everything else, it speeds up the process of building the puzzle, and that’s why you need that those genetics. So that’s, you know, that’s what we do. So, you know, for example, with my client that I told you about, who’s got the psychiatric problems in the gut, we’re looking at adding in some cysteine now, and just it’s very small amounts and because her cysteine pathway is not great. Her ability to make cysteine in the body uses the state of the body is not good, and so her glutathione production is not good. So we’re doing that and The other thing, let’s and let’s veer into with this, let’s I want to veer into nitric oxide. Because it’s a, it’s very much an obsession of mine. And I’m gonna sound like a crazy person. Because I see nitric oxide as the hub of a lot of processes and involved in a lot of processes so much so that it sounds like nitric oxide does everything. And intellectually I know that doesn’t happen. But kind of emotionally. I mean, like, I’m all in with nitric oxide. So if I sound like a crazy person, just know that that’s just my particular passion. And I see everything through the lens of nitric oxide, I believe. Let me back up one second here. So here’s the big picture explanation. So they’re complex problems to solve, right? So nutrition, somebodies health, and what we’re talking about is a complex problem. Multiple solutions could work, some of them better than others, and some of them terrible, right? Like the antibiotics for my patient was a terrible solution. Right? It didn’t help her at all. Right? Not a good solution. So these, there’s in mathematics, you solve a problem like this, there are multiple solutions. So one of the classic problems is what’s the shortest path for a used car salesman to travel to every capital city in the nation, right, all 50 capitals? So there are multiple different paths you could take. But what’s the shortest, right? So it turns out that there are a bunch of answers that are pretty close to each other. Right. So nitric oxide is one of these solutions, that’s a pretty good solution. For a lot of problems. It might not be it’s not the only one, but it’s a really good one. So that’s me, that’s my passion for nitric oxides. But take that with a grain of salt. Nitric oxide is a very small molecule, one nitrogen, one oxygen. And it’s it. It’s an oxidant. But it’s not, it’s not super reactive, there are other more dangerous oxidants in the body, but it has a particular affinity for various molecules throughout the body. So not only does it kind of break down kill viruses directly, but it also is a signaling molecule. And that’s what makes it so important. So you can think of nitric oxide as another cytokine, even though it’s not directly, and it signals within the cell itself. So what’s an autocrine signaler, it signals to cells around the cell where it is produced, so it’s a Peregrin. And then it can even be carried with other molecules throughout the body. So it becomes an endocrine signaler as well. So this little tiny molecule is affecting your entire body. It uses the enzymes that make nitric oxide uses an amino acid called arginine. And arginine is conditionally essential. And what that simply means is that for the most part, we’ve got enough, but there are certain cases where we don’t have enough. And I think one of the things that happen with our mass cell friends and with the chronic fatigue people is we can no longer produce enough nitric oxide at the physiological level. So one interesting thing that happens with the nitric oxide synthase, right, the enzyme that makes the nitric oxide, if it doesn’t have the right raw materials in the right conditions in the cell, it makes a different molecule called superoxide. And superoxide is much more reactive than nitric oxide. And in fact, superoxide combines with any nitric oxide that’s in the neighborhood to form another oxidant, called peroxynitrite, which is even more damaging it starts damaging the DNA directly. And so if this nitric oxide synthase doesn’t have what it needs, if it doesn’t recognize, right, I’m going to give it a little human characteristic here, if it doesn’t recognize that the cell is healthy, it starts producing superoxide kind of as a signal to say, hey, cell, get yourself together, you know, you to pull yourself together, you’re not doing so well. So the cell will stop reproducing. It’ll start repairing itself. And if it can’t do that sufficiently and return to normal functioning, the cell will tag itself for a toffee G and the resident macrophages in that tissue will come along and they will eat this damaged cell so it cannot reproduce and create more damaged cells. And that’s one of the main functions that nitric oxide is doing. So if you have somebody who’s lost a lot of weight with their illness, this is one of the things that happened is happening is that too many cells are tapping out. They’re saying, you know, we can’t keep this up anymore. So that you know, there may be some nutrient absorption issues going on. So maybe this is tapping out. It Happening in the intestines like with my friend, my patient who’s so sick. Maybe it’s happening in other organs in the body. But this is one of the things that does nitric oxide is doing so reestablishing physiological basal levels of nitric oxide is critical to healing. Sorry, that’s my dog barking in the background. UPS truck must be in the driveway. So it’s critical. nitric oxide is part it’s crazy. nitric oxide is produced in large amounts as the innate immune system is activated. So many researchers do nitric oxide as this pro-inflammatory, highly caustic molecule that’s being produced in the body. But if we don’t make enough of it, if the buyers don’t burn bright night, bright enough for the inflammation, and the body never moves into healing mode. So nitric oxide also does things like it calms down mast cells, right? It inhibits mast cell functions. It inhibits, the Knox enzyme that produces is an enzyme that produces superoxide. So it calms that down. So enough, you know, it’s kind of telling the system is like, Okay, we’ve got enough of immune response going here that we can begin to slow it down again. So if you’re not, if you run out of your capacity to produce this nitric oxide because you run out of arginine, or the cells that are producing nitric oxide aren’t healthy enough, then you actually have a deficit of nitric oxide, and you’re producing more peroxynitrite instead so much, there are some scientists and I’m in their camp, who think that a lot of the damage and bad press that nitric oxide gets is actually the function of nitric oxide. And so that’s what we’re, I’m sure this is what’s happening with so many chronically ill people is they’ve lost their ability to produce enough nitric oxide. So there are things you can do to support that there are supplements out there. There are things like neo 40, there are things like a Berkeley life has a nitric oxide supplement. If you’re worried about oxalates, you can eat a Rue Jolla, which is very high in nitrates. So there’s a rescue pathway that creates nitric oxide through what we eat through ingested nitrites and nitrates. So you can do it that way. And then you can support the enzymes themselves. And it’s better to support with citrulline than arginine. And that’s because Argentine once it’s taken up in the bloodstream tends to be captured by the liver. And it never makes it to the cells that are making the nitric oxide. So citrulline is ignored by the liver for the most part, and it gets to circulate. And then there are specific enzymes that convert the citrulline to arginine, right where it needs to be next to the nitric oxide synthesis. So I hope I didn’t get too technical there. But this nitric oxide idea, I think, is so important for recovery. And I do think it’s one of those main fulcrum points, one of the main pivot points in the cell danger response. They don’t, he doesn’t talk about it a lot. I haven’t seen it in his research yet. But it’s involved in the balance between the two immune systems, the one immune system, it’s involved in proper immune response, they found it so important in the body’s ability to deal with the COVID virus, directly and indirectly. And again, these massive inflammatory responses are, I think, even though I mean, let me see if I can regather myself here. So set let’s sepsis, right? So essentially, these people are dying of COVID, their lungs, their lungs were being disintegrated. Right? their lungs are melting. So they’re having sepsis in the lungs. And we all know what happens, like when you get C diff, and just the whole body, the organs start to melt. So this is the inflammatory response, the innate immune system responses went nuts. And it’s a lot of that damage is put on the plate of this nitric oxide. But it’s not really the nitric oxide, it’s the superoxide that’s causing this problem. Yes. So what they do is they measure the activity of the nitric oxide enzyme is like, Wow, look at all these extra nitric oxide enzymes that are being produced by the body here. Therefore, it must be a nitric oxide problem. The part of the equation that they leave out is these nitric oxide enzymes aren’t producing nitric oxide anymore. They’re producing superoxide because of the condition of the train the condition of the cell. Does that make sense? Joe?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. There’s a lot of things that I want to spit out and sort of comment on. I mean, obviously, there are potentials with people that have challenges with reducing superoxide and so d snips that are going to make this even worse. I interviewed Nathan Bryan and I’m sure you’re familiar. You’re with, you know, taking mouthwash, right and you and that will kill the nitrate-reducing bacteria. And now all of a sudden you’re not producing nitric oxide, any chronic neurodegenerative or any type of chronic just degenerative condition in the body is going to be correlated with low nitric oxide levels. Obviously, it’s increasing blood flow, and everything that accompanies blood flow in terms of energy production, and electron transport chain and all of the above are going to impact. So I agree, I love that you have that emphasis, and I think for Lyme, the limeys that are potentially listening to this and like nitric, what like that’s a huge lake, a huge I need to incorporate this information into my knowledge base and applications. Because ultimately, if I’m not able to signal my cell, if I’m overproducing free radicals, if I’m not eliminating that, that’s just gonna feed-forward and continue to drain your batteries, if you will. So awesome stuff I mean, also, like not that are very sick clients would be able to do high-intensity exercises, but blood flow restriction, and katsu and all those types of things are helpful for nitric oxide production as well. So awesome information as far as how do we go from there? What now that we’ve understood that what now what’s, what do you find in clinical pearls when you’re putting all things together? Now, McKay.   Mackay Rippey: So I’m looking for ways, always, for people to be able to increase their nitric oxide levels, gently and on the physiological level, right, either to complete the inflammatory response so that they can calm down, right, so the body can switch from the one response to the two and start healing, or that the basil levels can be reestablished. And what I’m researching right now is gut. intestinal health, and the role nitric oxide plays in that, right. So we think of endothelial cells, we think of nitric oxide as a blood flow, right? And that’s where it got its name, right? That’s where the Nobel Prize came into play. But if you think of any vessel anywhere in the body, if you have restricted bile flow, chances are you’re not making enough nitric oxide. If you have restricted limb flow, guess what nitric oxide is a ball, if you have restricted flow through the kidneys, or through the liver itself, nitric oxides are involved, right. The intestines have endothelial cells. So if you’re having intestinal problems, you’re having nitric oxide problems. If you’re having lung problems, you’re having nitric oxide problems, it that’s why I kind of picked that it’s, you know, I’m a monomaniacal nitric oxide guy, because it’s just, it’s involved everywhere. It’s one of these basil molecules that is just involved in so many symptoms. And so many systems, I meant to say, because there’s just so, at such a basic level, it’s like talking about mitochondria. Well, what to build an economy. Well, every cell has mitochondria in it, except for red blood cells. And if you don’t have mitochondria, guess what the cell is not going to work. If the cells don’t work, the tissue doesn’t work. If the tissue doesn’t work, the origin doesn’t work. And nitric oxide is, is almost like that. I’m not going to put it the level of mitochondria. But it’s almost like that if your cells are not producing nitric oxide at the right levels, then you got issues, and it doesn’t matter where so things you can do sunshine creates nitric oxide, UV light creates nitric oxide, particularly UVB. Right. So not necessarily a tanning booth may or may not depending on the type of bulbs they have, can help. So I used to be 100% against tanning booths. And a couple of years ago, I thought, well, maybe I need to need to get one in my clinic to help people because up here in Central Europe, there’s no sunshine. It’s just like we’re a cloud cover all the time. People suffer because they’re not making enough nitric oxide. So that’s one thing you can do saunas, or even raising your temperature a little bit. So Heat Shock Protein triggers nitric oxide release. When you think about it, what happens our body gets warm, we need more blood circulation to be able to cool so it releases nitric oxide. On and on like that. So there are some very gentle things. Obviously, exercise is a great way to do but when you’re fatigued, you know, you’ve got that heart whole heart rate variability, how hard you push today before it becomes detrimental, and you have to pay for the exercise. So that’s always a very touchy thing. I’ll leave that more in your boat than in mine. I’m always very careful with people’s like start slower than you think you should write. Start slower than you think you should be. He said for everything else. So exercise is an awesome way something simple like walking, right? Because of the demands, there’s something called shear stress. So once the demand for the blood flow increases and your blood pressure increases a little bit, it pushes on the endothelial cells physically pushes on them. And the pressure on the endothelial cell recognizes Oh, we need more blood flow to this area, let’s produce nitric oxide and open up the blood vessels. If there’s not here, so here’s supposition, if there’s not enough nitric oxide in the area, I bet that the body falls back on histamine to open up blood cells, it’s got to get the blood flow in there, somehow, nitric oxide is a preferred method, it’s not going to be inflammatory. Histamine has all the other problems to it. But if you have to get if the equation is either we get blood flow to the area or the area dies, the body is going to open up the blood flow any way it can. So I think that’s also one of the reasons why we see so much histamine response that gets along with these super sick chronically ill people is because their ability to create basil levels and nitric oxide has diminished. And then there’s the rescue pathway. So Neil, Dr. Nathan, messing up his name, I was getting confused.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yo, yo, Nathan, and Nathan Brown,   Mackay Rippey: Nathan bright, right? nice and bright. So no guy and yeah,   Dr. Joel Rosen: Nathan is the toxic mold guy.   Mackay Rippey: Thank you. So Nathan Bryan is an expert. In the I’m going to call it the rescue pathway, right? The pathway where you make nitric oxide by what you’re eating.   Dr. Joel Rosen: right and again.   Mackay Rippey: and the whole range with celery. So what is, you know, what’s the health benefit of celery, there’s nothing there. But some fiber, water, and sodium, right? Well, it also turns out, there’s a ton of nitrate in celery. So what celery is doing is giving you a lot of substrates to make nitric oxide in your gut from the stomach acid. Right from and like you said, in the bacteria in your mouth. So there’s a whole we don’t need to go into that. Right. But that but essentially that’s what’s doing celery juice is making nitric oxide. And as one of its effects is that all it’s doing? Probably not. But that’s one of the things it’s doing. And the problem with celery juice, it has oxalates in it. So it’s you’re much better off doing a Rue Jolla than kale. Kale also has a bunch of nitrates and can be helpful that way. But again, kale, spinach, beetroots are classic like nitrate, you know, let’s boost nitric oxide food. But if you have a problem with oxalates, they’re going to make things worse, probably. So you want to do something that doesn’t have nitrates and a regular is a great green. It doesn’t it’s a little bit bitter. It’s not that bad. You just mix it in with your other salad greens, you’ll be fine.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Put them all but two things, a couple of things. So number one, I know there’s someone out there and they are the person with the celery juice and the medium. But I think that the medical detectives and the arugula have a pretty good stand marketplace to come in and take away the medium and his salary place and explain why that’s one biz-op. So I said it live. You heard it here first. Number two is, can you go back and just kind of explanation because this is more of an aha for me when you mentioned it. So you know, I say that Adrenal Fatigue is a terrible term. And ultimately, the body has learned how not learned how to or lost the capacity to maintain homeostasis. And then you have these nutrients that they call adaptogenic herbs that can help if you’re low, come high, or if you’re high come low to help you with that homeostasis. But you mentioned something earlier, which I see a lot of where for the people that are underweight and catabolic, and there’s nitric oxide peroxynitrite, I think that’s a lot of value if you can explain that a little bit in detail because you also have those that have weight loss resistance that is in a cell danger response and can’t lose the weight. But then you have also those that are in a cell danger response with weight gain resistance. And I haven’t really pieced together the weight gain resistance and the nitric oxide connection. So if you can kind of elucidate that, that’d be great.   Mackay Rippey: This is speculation, right? I’m not going to claim that this is exactly what happens. But it makes sense to me and the Dr. Joel Rosen: observation.   Mackay Rippey: That’s exactly right. And the interventions are not going to be anything terribly harmful. So is that something somebody can experiment with and not kill themselves? Right? I’m not asking to do anything dangerous. It comes down to Matt what macrophages and then the T helper cells. So this is a gross oversimplification of the immune system, but I’m going to do it in Anyway, so they’re macrophages, which are kind of big eaters, right? That’s the name of it means macrophage and their resident macrophages. So that means they hang out just kind of waiting as mast cells do. And then their macrophages that come in, when they’re called upon, right, kind of like the Marines. And then their t helper cells and T helper cells, for the most part, are just communication hubs. They take signals from macrophages, and other resident immune cells and they amplify them. That’s pretty much what they do. Now, again, that’s an oversimplification. But that’s if you understand that you’re understanding more than 75% of people in the immune system. macrophages have tool belts, genetic tool belts, and depending on the environment, and the signals they’re getting from their own environment, and the signals are getting from these t helper cells will pick up different genetic tools from the genetic tool belt. So the first phase, and it’s called m one polarization or the one at the same thing, the one are the helper cells polarization and one is a macrophage polarization. And that’s when the body first encounters a pathogen. So these people are getting sick with the Pfizer vaccine. It’s like the body seeing this RNA strand for the first time. And the body says kill it, right. And so the body’s learning that this is a foreign invader, that’s what vaccination does. The same thing happens whether it’s a virus coming in a bacteria through a break in the skin, whether you have a pathogenic mold in your gut, right, that’s your body’s first response. In this response, the cells produce a lot of nitric oxides, they move from the basal level of nitric oxide to this war footing nitric oxide. So the levels of nitric oxide produced in the cells go up by 1,000%. I mean, it’s just it’s unbelievable how much more nitric oxide is produced. Now, other things are happening at the same time. So it’s not just nitric oxide, but this is a big piece of it. So you get this inflammatory response, the body is creating all kinds of chemicals and signals saying we need to kill this, let’s get to work. And let’s assume that the body is successful in doing that, then the signals start changing, and it starts moving into an m two and the two response. And this is also called the healing phase. Now that’s oversimplifying too because the response can happen when they’re like infections with parasites and larger multi-celled infections, flutes, things like that petite to response will come in. So it’s not purely a healing-only mode, but it’s enough for our purposes. So the body then shifts from the one and mone to the two and m two. So both macrophages and these t helper cells are now going around fixing things. They’re creating chemicals that help the body heal. So it’s a totally different phase. So another switch in this and I’m sure you’ve heard this with cancer, right is the autophagy phage phase of things and the more phase of things, right? Cancer lives in the two more m two-phase of things autophagy and healing, ketogenic diets, that sort of thing. calorie restriction lives on the one side of things. So what happens with the people who can’t gain weight, Joel, is they get stuck in this one response. And the assumption is that they’re making too much nitric oxide. I don’t think that’s the case. Again, this is where my speculation comes in. I think they’re making too much peroxynitrite. And actually not enough nitric oxide, and if they add, they were able to get enough nitric oxide, the body could then recover from it as like it needs enough. It’s like, if you don’t have enough heat you can’t bake the brownie, right, you can leave it in the oven forever and it just dries out and turns gross, it never really bakes. So the body’s inflammatory response needs enough heat. And this is Chinese medicine’s kind of ideal for enough heat to then curve over and to begin the cooling phase. So it doesn’t get the infectious response doesn’t get hot enough to flip the switch to then begin to cool. Does that make any sense?   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense and it’s almost like the paradoxical reality of having the wrong assumption of too much nitric oxide which it’s too little nitric oxide and too much byproduct of the reaction gone the wrong sort of speak in producing free radicals and in this case, it’s very catabolic, and it breaks you down. The thing is though also though because m tour and this is a whole other podcast which I’ll make sure we do part two, do I feel the same way about you and nitric oxide and all the bullet points that go underneath that to cover that that is enough of an upstream project to really make significant improvements upon the person’s health. It’s the same thing for more. And for me, it’s hard to get my idea around how many environmental triggers stimulate cell growth? Yes, and still have someone to be catabolic?   Mackay Rippey: You know, it’s, it’s, well, that well, right. Yeah. So that’s where you’ve got these different systems going on. Right. And, and that, but that’s why paradoxically, you get some of these people who get sick and they gain weight like I’m a weight gainer, right, I’m stuck in teaching to my body wants to go to the Mtorr side and wants to go to the insulin resistance side, it wants to go to the storing fats side of things, right. Some people respond the other way, whether it’s genetic, whether it’s just the way you know, other functions in the body. Other influences in the body have set things up. But one, so you can, you can have all the responses like in the more side of thing, but if you have like in your muscles, if you’re still having this, this inflammatory response, innate system response, or if you’re having it in your gut, and you can’t, you know, so we have to let me back up here for a second, I’m getting a little excited with myself. If you can’t, we have to find whether or not it’s an absorption issue, right? Is the problem in the gut? Is it just not absorbing the nutrients? Right? That’s step one. Are we not digesting or not? You know, is there not enough saliva is there not enough gastric juices absorbing? Right? So we’re all assuming that that’s kind of taken care of, and they’re operating, okay. All this stuff tends to break down together, right. But the reason the gut may not be healing is that it’s stuck in this chronic inflammatory state and is not able to get cool enough, right to go through enough heat to cool off. And what they’re finding is that endothelial, nitric oxide inside the cells lining the gut is critical to its ability to be healthy. So in knockout mice, where they take out the ability to create, and this one particular nitric oxide enzyme, if they take this out, it’s more susceptible to all kinds of inflammatory bowel diseases, whether it’s Krones model, you know, there’s just IBD itself, because it can’t return to the rate, it can’t return to homeostasis is such an important molecule for signaling the cell itself and the surrounding tissue that everything’s okay. It’s like, it’s the night watchman going through 10 o’clock. And all as well, that’s what nitric oxide is doing.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, you know, it’s interesting. And I always say to clients that I worked with six months or later, hey, I want to work with you again because I have all these new insights. And I have a client, in particular, that was, I was on the right path, right-left lines, like proxy nitride and superoxide, and can’t gain weight and nitric oxide issues. But we had a couple of other too many methyl groups stimulating Mtorr You know, this anyways. Um, so as far as this is amazing information, MacKay. I want to make sure that we set up another time to talk a little bit more thoroughly about mtorr, and a toffee G. And then also, we talked about the cytokines. I’m so glad we talked about nitric oxide. But as far as how do if people are listening to this, and they’re a provider, or they’re a health coach, or they want to learn more about this, I know you’ve developed beyond protocol. So tell us a little bit about that. And what that is, and what kind of resource that is for people that are looking for more education on this information.   Mackay Rippey: Beyond protocol is an online mentoring platform, and we teach our process, it’s a nine-step process, to help practitioners use this information, user testing in a collaborative, cohesive way. So they’re not taking individual test results in isolation, but understand how they all fit together to really give and I’m gonna say it this way, to give you the true root cause, right, everybody treats root cause now, you have to say something different, right? The true root cause, because some somebody who’s got, like adrenal problems, the problem might be in their adrenals. But it might be from something else, right. And that’s what you’re good at is like finding out what’s really the root cause. It’s not enough anymore to say, Oh, you’ve got a thyroid issue. Okay, why do you have a thyroid issue? Is that because you have oxalates? And you don’t have any iodine? Because it’s all bound up in the oxalates. You know, what’s the true root cause? And then why do you have oxalates? You know, is it a gut issue? Is it a diet issue? What’s, what’s going on? So We can always continue to go upstream. So we’ve gotten lazy, I think it’s become a marketing trope that we’re saying, Oh, we’ve got the root cause, but what’s the true root cause. And that’s what we’re training practitioners how to do, to use genomics to use organic acids use Dutch test type tests, and blood test put this all together, and really go after the true root cause. So you can help patients get better, faster, and then have fewer adverse reactions, right? If you get the right, if you’re pushing the right pathways, people are going to get better, and they’re going to feel better. And from a purely selfish point of view, happy patients refer their friends and families, you don’t need to go out there and spend 30 hours on doing social media, right? patients are your best marketing, they spend way more time on social media than you can. That’s true. That’s the professional side of things.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right? Right. Right. And then as far as just learning a little bit more about you personally and privately. The name is spelled ma CK AYR IPP. me. Why? Write? Italian? No,   Mackay Rippey: no, that’s the other side of the equation. My mom’s maiden name is Fender Rowley.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. So as far as already, we always like to ask our guests. McKay, hey, like you’re a wealth of information, I could talk to you all day and have people like overhear us geeking out and hearing all about this. But we gotta respect each other’s time and listeners, brainpower to process all the information. But as far as I’m interested to hear your answer, given the sage-like, knowledge that you’ve acquired, and obviously, there’s always learning to be had, what would you tell the younger, naive or not so knowledgeable McKay that may have had some stress responses or fatigue issues or things that could have really accelerated how great you would have felt? Had you had those pieces of the puzzle? What would you tell yourself then?   Mackay Rippey: So my advice to my younger self would be along the lines of don’t give up so easily. And coming from a bit of a perfectionist type mindset is like always wanted things to be just so just right. And when things didn’t look just so in the beginning, like, somehow I missed the lesson in that Rome wasn’t built in a day, right, that the Sistine Chapel wasn’t painted overnight. And just looking at the results, whether it’s patient health, my own health, my own performance in a sport, or academically, and that usually there’s hard work involved. And it sounds so simple and so obvious. But as a younger person, if things got a little bit rough, I move on to the next thing. And I would encourage my younger self is just like, sit yourself down, do the work, and the results will come.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. It’s you know, beauty and simplicity. And that’s a that doesn’t happen very often. I feel a couple of things on that is in terms of shiny object syndrome.   Mackay Rippey: And hey, I’m guilty. Dr. Joel Rosen: Yes, I think we all are, especially in our quest for health rights and supplements and so forth.   Mackay Rippey: And that’s, you know, that’s why I stopped the Lyme podcast is it was totally shiny object syndrome. Right, and it’s just like, it’s like all the diet books too. It’s like we need to do a better job of figuring out what diet is right for one person because we go through the diet books if you go through Lyme disease every single book every single intervention has cured somebody and all the books say the same thing. Dr. So and So saved my life because all I eat now is chocolate-covered ants, right and they and so, therefore, chocolate-covered answers the way everybody should eat and then you go to the next one said no, you know Dr. So and So saved my life and all I eat is celery juice and celery juice saved my life and everybody should be on celery juice. It doesn’t work that way. We used to have this stuff figured out right we and then we started traveling the world and then Irish people like my dad started marrying Italian people like my mom and who knows what my genetics are now and what I should be eating. It’s definitely not pasta I know that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I was gonna say and all of that is just the acres of diamond right in terms of there’s an I don’t know if you know the book but there’s a book where it’s a positive help book and it’s talking about completing your tasks and it’s the analogy is this guy that was looking for the diamond mine bought this plot of land and he has been digging for years and years and years and years, till eventually is like, you know what? It’s not here. He sells it, the person that moves in was a foot above where the diamonds were. But he stopped digging. And I have clients that okay, like, Hey, I feel like you’re so close yet so far, we got to implement beyond protocols and get you understanding your mindset and your brain and your circadian rhythm and your relationships and the quality air that you breathe, and the things that you don’t see in the shiny objects that make the difference. And you know, of, of that whole, like, point 5% of what you’re missing makes that 99.5% results happen. So, lots of amazing information. Any last words you want to share?   Mackay Rippey: No, thank you. This has been fun. I know I went way over. But that’s my tendency is once you get me wound up, I can’t stop talking. Oh, look at that.   Dr. Joel Rosen: hey, listen, you don’t need to fix that. That’s not broken. That’s a good thing. So I appreciate all the time that you’ve shared with us today. There’s lots of great information. I always go back and listen to this more and more and more and pick up some more pieces. And I hope that our listeners get a lot of value out of it like I know they will and just want to thank you so much for your time and everything that you’re doing in the world to create a better place.   Mackay Rippey: Thanks, Joe.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Thank you, MacKay. Have a great rest of your day.   If you are a practitioner, and want to learn more about “beyond protocol” click here.   The post Lyme Ninja Meets Adrenal Fatigue Ninja appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.

Dr. Joel Rosen: Welcome back to another edition of the less stress life where we teach exhausted and burnt out adults the truth about adrenal fatigue so that they can get their health back quickly. And I’m super excited for our next guest because I’ve been a fly on the wall watching him progress from where he was to where he is. Now. Ben Azadi is on a mission to help 1 billion people and I’m certainly convinced that he will be able to do that. He wants them to live a happier life. He’s the author of three, not just three, but soon to be four best-selling books. The three that he already has the perfect health booklet, the intermittent fasting cheat sheet, and the power of sleep. He’s been the go-to source for intermittent fasting and the ketogenic diet. And he is known as the health detective because he investigates dysfunction and he educates not Medicaid to bring the bat body back to normal function. So, Ben, thank you so much for being here today.   Ben Azidi: Dr. Joel Rosen. I’m excited to be with you, brother.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, me too. So you know what, as far as people that don’t know your story, why don’t you just kind of give us an insight, a little stroll through Memory Lane on your own health challenges and why you developed keto camp and, and we’ll go from there.   Ben Azidi: Absolutely. So I came to a wall. My parents came to America, they immigrated here in the 70s. from Iran, my parents immigrated here in the 1970s. And then I was born blessed enough to be born here in America, in Miami Beach, Florida. And I followed a standard American diet, aka stupid American diet. And it resulted in me being obese, not just physically obese. But also mentally of these, I found myself as a teenager, hanging out the wrong crowds, doing drugs, being addicted to sugar and video games and drugs and alcohol. And I was pretty much left to my own devices growing up. So that really showed and manifested in really poor health. And this transferred into my adulthood, where at the age of 2324 years old, I found myself depressed, suicidal, lost in life, I weighed 250 pounds at that time, this was back in 2008. And I wanted to give up on life, I was tired of hurting, I didn’t know where to start. I never studied nutrition, never exercised. And I was dealing with a bad breakup at that time. And I was crying every day, I was just depressed. And I even went on the internet several times to look for options to end my life and the suffering. But thankfully, I never went through with it. Because every time I thought about doing it, I thought about my mother and I stopped myself from pursuing that. So I knew I needed to figure things out. And a friend of mine, actually, two friends of mine, they’re a couple of Ronald and Carla are their names. They handed me a book and they’re like, read this book, I think it’ll make a big difference for you and what you’re dealing with. So I read the book, and it was a terrific book. And it led to other books. And it led to this whole world I never knew existed, I started to read books from authors like Dr. Wayne Dyer, and Bob Proctor. And Earl Nightingale and Jim Rohn. And Tony Robbins, just these amazing, incredible individuals who have done great things in their life after they went through rock bottom. And for the first time, Jolla helped me take ownership of my results. I said I am responsible. And it felt really liberating, saying those words out loud because it’s almost impossible to feel responsible and say that you’re responsible and still be resentful and angry. So I took ownership. And at that moment, I became the victor of my future, the victim of my destiny, no longer the victim of my history. So I started to actually exercise and eat better and think better thoughts, which we’ll get into in this podcast. And nine months later, I went from 250 pounds down to 170 pounds, I went from 34% body fat, down to 6% body fat finally carved out a physical, physical six-pack, but I believe the most important thing I achieved was a mental six-pack, I started to think better thoughts. And that’s what actually got me started in the health space that became a personal trainer, opened up a CrossFit gym sold a CrossFit gym. And then I studied and got certified as a health coach. And as you mentioned earlier, I started to write these books. So that’s what got me started in the health space. It wasn’t until 2013 that I took this health career if you want to call it that from a hobby to a purpose. That’s when my dad and I ended up getting sick in 2013, where he had type two diabetes. And as you know, it’s a lifestyle disease that’s unfortunately, treated with medication, but I didn’t really understand the disease. And I really put my faith in allopathic medicine and conventional medicine. And my dad ended up suffering a massive stroke which left him paralyzed, and the inability to move his entire right side. I mean, he was on his deathbed essentially for nine months. And that was a very difficult time visiting him for nine months seeing him just decline and he ended up passing away on August 12, 2014. And when he passed away, it raised a lot of questions for me, you know, why did my dad have to go through this I kept I took him to his doctor’s appointments. I bought all the groceries they told me to buy for him and he ended up losing his life. Why is this happening in America the world? Why? There are so many sick people out there. So I found the answers to the questions. And the answers lie within the human body. As you know, the body is capable of healing as long as we remove the interference, and we’re going to talk about how we could use ketones to do that. But I know now that the information that I share all across the world, it’s the information that I would have saved my dad’s life, he would be here today if I would have applied it to him. But I also know that I was given that mountain so I could show the world that the mountain can be moved, I believe, the human body is incredible, it is capable of healing, as long as you identify that interference, remove the interference, and just let allow that innate intelligence, that inner position to do its job. So that’s the mission here at keto camp to educate and inspire 1 billion people to get this information to them.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s an awesome story. And thank you so much for sharing that. And I think it’s important that we ourselves as practitioners be vulnerable so that people can understand we understand them. And ultimately, that mission is served. So as you mentioned a couple of terms, Ben, one was the mental six-pack, and one was the mental obesity, and not just physical obesity and a physical six-pack. So I know mindset is a big part of your recovery strategy. But I guess two questions would be, when did you realize on your own healing journey, how such an important role of mindset was, besides the knowledge and the information and so forth? Let’s just start with that one.   Ben Azidi: Yeah, it’s an important question too, because I believe you have to exercise before you exercise. So I’m glad that we’re starting with this. It wasn’t until a few years after my transformation, actually, two years after is when my self-image finally adapted to me really feeling like I was a lean person, not no longer a fat person. It took two years after I went through my transformation. And I was curious, like, why did it take two years to do that? And then I started to study this book called Psycho-Cybernetics by Dr. Maxwell Maltz. And he talks about this self-image, and you could only get as many results in your life, according to your self-image. And he talked about how he was a plastic surgeon. And he used to do the surgeries on individuals who had big noses, big ears, abnormalities, whatever it was. And most of the patients within 21 days, felt different. They felt like a different person, they felt like that person who has the new nose or the new, whatever he or whatever it was, but then there was a small percentage of people who months and even years later still felt ugly, they still felt this form, even though they went through the surgery. That’s because their self-image is still identified as that. And it really clicked with me because I felt like I was still sabotaging myself. I was lean, I had a six-pack. But I didn’t feel healthy, I still felt like I was one of those fit-sick people. So I wanted to explore my thoughts. And I wanted to explore how to change, this self-image. And I learned about paradigms, which is a multitude of habits that we just do an autopilot subconscious mind is doing it. And it’s really based on the first seven years of our life, all of our experiences, and our upbringing. And I wanted to unpack that. So I started to study Bob Proctor. And I realized and came across research that shows the average human thinks about 60,000 thoughts per day. And 90% of those thoughts are the same thoughts from the day before. Meaning most people don’t originate a creative thought unless they go through some sort of disaster or they intentionally practice it. And a lot of people are thinking negative thoughts, that thinking, and I want to change that for myself. So I believe when you start to change your thoughts, you change your life. And Dr. Wayne Dyer said, when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change. So I started to focus on self-love. I did self-love practices, I still do to this day, affirmations and gratitude. You know, I believe gratitude and love are two of the biggest healers you have out there. I have seen so many people, and I’m sure you have Joel, they’re taking the right supplements and doing the right diet, they’re exercising, but they have this resentfulness and hatefulness in their body, and you cannot heal a body that has hate. So for me, and the listeners out there self-love and gratitude, those are pin it’s fundamental to really start practicing that and then when you apply the supplements of Akito, whatever it is, that automatically upgrades itself. So that’s a little bit of the self-image in the mindset.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So, so important, Ben and you know, it’s one of those things that is taken for granted. Sometimes it’s poo-pooed and ultimately, it’s not even that it’s but I’ll wait until right when I have this when I feel better when I have those. I’ll wait until and I love all your your your little youth, whatever, euphemisms or the little sayings you have, but I like the one in terms of ready fire aim, right because if you if even though you’re justified, life’s not fair, I’ve had a terrible upbringing, my genetics Aren’t favorable, I had all these atrocities, you’re justified. And you’re right. But if you’re saying that you’re hooking your anchor to that, it’s not going to serve you. So I love that. So great, great, great information as far as now let’s go down sort of the keto camp, and how you then went from understanding the changes mentally and physically that you had to do yourself and mentally came two years after the physical and now you’re gathering up all these new tools in your toolkit. How did keto come onto your toolkit?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, so I was still curious. Going through my transformation years later, I still felt like I wasn’t, I had, I didn’t achieve optimal health. I still felt sluggish afternoon naps. Although I was lean, I was exercising I didn’t feel like I understood cellular health through Seiler health. So I explored different nutritional approaches. I read the book China China Study, which, you know, it’s poorly written, if you actually could read it understand studies, but I didn’t understand studies back then. So I got duped by The China Study. And then I became a strict vegan for a year and a half. And, you know, in the beginning, it was great, I had some results, and I benefited from it from the first couple of months. But then after that, I was just slowly declining. But I had I put myself in a dogmatic box, I was telling all my friends and family like you’re gonna save the world and save, you’re healthy, gotta be plant-based, you know, powered by plants, hashtag whatever. So, about a year and a half into that, I realized, okay, this is not working for me, I feel like my hormones are wonky. I did some tests, a confirmed my hormones were wonky. And then I discovered after researching outside of the vegan approach, the ketogenic diet, and intermittent fasting, this was in 2013. And I thought this is interesting, you know, ketosis. Technically keto is not a diet, it’s a metabolic process. And all of our ancestors went through periods of time where they were in ketosis, their environment and forced them into it. So I shortly realized that we are hardwired to actually go through periods of time in ketosis and then flexing it ketosis, hence, the book keto flex. So I decided to go all-in with keto and give it a good shot and test my glucose and ketones back then. And that’s when the strips were super expensive because it wasn’t popular. But then I noticed like my energy levels, increased my performance at the CrossFit gym at that time, increased my mental clarity, I felt really good. And I started to really understand health at the cellular level. And that’s where it all started for me. And I learned a lot of things along the way. I’ve been doing keto and teaching it now for what, seven, eight years. So there’s a lot of mistakes I made, and a lot of ways to do it the right way. And yeah, we’ll talk about that shit soon. I’m sure.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s, that’s interesting. I like the idea of always owning what you teach. And, and that’s what you’re doing. And we all do, I think, to a certain extent, so that way, you have the integrity. Number one, right? You’re not just telling other people to do it. Like I hate a broke financial planner, or an out of shape, Doctor, you know, right, homeless realtor, you have to have integrity. And I love that you do that yourself. And you find out what works for yourself and understand that everyone’s a unique body that weight even though it may work for yourself, it may not work for someone else. But understand here’s why. So as far as you mentioned, the sabotaging and the in terms of now, let’s get into keto. And let’s talk about if someone is looking to do that. And you mentioned that it is it’s a metabolic process and not so much a diet. And ultimately, we are programmed and engineered to go through fasts and famines, and plentiful illness. Can you just elaborate on that further, just so the person who understands Oh, so it’s not just eating all high-fat foods and no carbs and deep-fried stuff, but ultimately, it’s a physiological process that my body’s engineered? Maybe shed a little more light on that?   Ben Azidi: Absolutely. Yeah. So when we look at the body, we know that there are about 70 trillion cells inside of the body, give or take a few, right. So out of those 70 trillion cells, there are only two options for fuel either the cells are burning glucose, sugar, or burning fat-producing ketones. When the cells are stuck as sugar burners and it’s only burning sugar, only burning glucose. It’s not a fun way to live. That’s how I used to live when I was obese. How do you know if your cells are stuck on sugar burners or here’s the easy sign? Can you skip a meal? Or do you feel great when you skip a meal? Do you feel hungry Do you need to eat every two to three hours when your cells are stuck on a sugar burner, you need to get ahead of glucose every two to three hours. You have to have snacks all around. And you know if you do that over and over and over over the years, you wipe out the adrenals because you’re a cancer spike in glucose and insulin, and it’s going back down, you’re having this roller coaster, which it takes its toll on the adrenal glands. So when we talk about the cells burning glucose, the analogy that I like to give pictures a truck, a big Mack truck, that speeding through the streets here, with all this smoke being blasted out of the exhaust pipe of this truck, well, that truck is not going to be healthy. For the surrounding environment, you’re gonna have all this smoke gunking up the other cars, you know, staining the roads going over the trees, it’s not going to be healthy for that environment. When your cells are stuck in sugar burners, it’s not healthy for your cellular environment, it creates a lot of cellular toxins, cellular byproducts, cellular smoke if you will. Now, if we could teach your body to use ketones and fat instead, I compare that to a Tesla cruising through the streets much cleaner for the surrounding environment, much cleaner for your cellular environment. So that’s the difference between burning sugar and burning fat. Now we fast forward to this year 2021. We do a quick search on Dr. Google and we’ll get over 100 million results on what is the keto diet. So that’s a good thing because people are searching for it. But it’s a bad thing. Also, because people are getting the wrong information. As you said, Joel. Yes, you can eat a whole bunch of bacon and fat and cheese and rancid fats and technically get in ketosis. But are you getting healthy? Are you healing the metabolism? Are you actually reducing inflammation? The answer’s no. So if you do keto the right way, and you stay in it for the right period of time and start flexing in and out and achieve this metabolic freedom. That’s what I talked about. That’s what we talked about here. I keto Canvas, doing it the right way, what I call clean keto, and then doing it for the time that you need to do it and then flex out of it. I don’t think we should stay in ketosis just like our ancestors didn’t stay in ketosis when they had the opportunity. They flexed out and then went back in, they flexed out I went back in. So that is where the magic lies. It creates that harmony sister creates that adaptation. And when you force adaptation, good styles get stronger and bad cells do not adapt.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah. And I think it’s so key, Ben, that people that are maybe looking for weight loss before health improvements. First, they’ll go full in keto or not fully and they’ll there be dirty keto, or they won’t look about reducing the impact of waste products on the rest of the cells. And then they’ll start to Well, what are some of the the the fears or the concerns from a health standpoint, if someone’s doing it incorrectly, and they are just kind of doing a dirty keto, they’re not aware of their portion controls? Or the timing between meals? Or how many absolute carbs? Or how much absolute protein they’re getting, but what are the pitfalls that they can be shooting themselves in the foot for thinking they are doing keto number one? And number two, in general, what are the challenges when they’re not doing it? Right, from a health standpoint?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, and it’s an important question. So you already said it, you know, approaching keto, for solely weight loss. That’s a bad way to approach it. Yeah. a keto is a great tool for fat loss and weight loss. However, the body doesn’t work that way. As you know, we don’t lose weight to get healthy, we get healthy to lose weight. So how do you get healthy, you reduce inflammation, specifically, cellular membrane inflammation. So some of the pitfalls are going to be dirty keto eating the wrong fats that are actually worse than sugar. And here’s why. I interviewed a couple of people on my keto camp podcast last year, Brian Peskin, who wrote the book, The PEO solution, and he’s an MIT researcher. And then also Dr. Kate Shanahan, who wrote deep nutrition and in fat burn fix. She used to be the nutritionist for the Los Angeles Lakers when Kobe Bryant was there. And they both specialize, and these vegetable oils and how inflammatory they are. According to their research, right? They said, if you look at somebody who smoked two packs of cigarettes every single day, for about 28 years, the chances of that person developing lung cancer within those 28 years are about 16%, one, six, then compare that to somebody who eats these bad facts every single day, these vegetable oils, I’ll give you an entire list, but somebody who eats these bad fats every single day, for 28 years, their chances of developing any cancer, or heart disease is about to 86%. This is absurd because the body cannot use these rancid fats as an energy source. They gunk up the receptor sites, these integral membrane proteins that are on the cells and those are so important like you explained on my podcast Joel, the cell membrane life begins and ends in the cell membrane it is the bodyguard of the cell that communicates with the DNA and helps everything function. And if you have inflammation on those receptor sites, now your hormones can’t get inefficient. The nutrients can’t get in oxygen can get in and there’s going to be dysfunction a symptom, but the symptom is not the problem, the symptom could be far removed from the problem. And some of the research I’ve seen has shown that these bad fats could create Seiler membrane inflammation for six to 12 months, meaning you eliminate them today. And you’re still dealing with it months after the elimination. So here are the bad fats. I hope your audience could write these down. canola oil, corn oil, cottonseed oil, soybean oil, sunflower oil, peanut oil, rice, bran, oil, and grapeseed oil, and safflower oil. Those are inflammatory fats. Now there are two there, that could be healthy, as long as they are organic, cold-pressed safflower and sunflower could be healthy as long as they process the right way. But those are the bad fats, your body cannot burn them. You could burn sugar in the form of exercise, but you can’t burn those fats.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, awesome information. And you know, it kind of late raises that that lightbulb or even the alarm in terms of you know, a lot of people go to Whole Foods, and they’ll go and get to prepare foods. And those are if you look at the ingredients, they’re all partially hydrogenated vegetable oils, and they will create major challenges. But are there any other challenges that make keto dirty? And then also as far as if someone what are the things I guess if that they would be doing that would help them transition into a ketogenic lifestyle? So does that make sense?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, it does. Yeah, there’s a couple of things. So in the book, keto flex that I have coming out it I talk about this number one, electrolytes are going to be very important, especially the first 14 days. And the reason is this when you’re eating when you’re not doing keto, and you’re eating a whole bunch of carbohydrates, the average American eats about 300 grams of carbs a day. What does that do to spike glucose and insulin, and then you also retain a lot of water? So that person eating carbs, they feel bloated, they have gas, they have stomach issues because of that process. But now that you’re doing more low carb, keto, higher fat, higher protein, what happens? Well, you’re going to shed a lot of this access to water weight, which is terrific, you’re going to look lighter, you’re going to feel lighter, but the kidneys actually dump electrolytes during this process, because insulin is now going to below. So you lose a lot of electrolytes. I call this electrolyte dumping in the book. So we want to be really diligent and consistent with replenishing those electrolytes. You can take high-quality sea salt, I use regimens Real Salt, I also formulated enough formulated came up with a recipe called the keto Kam cocktail, which is every morning especially the first 14 days doing keto, every morning, have 16 ounces of water, two tablespoons of apple cider vinegar, one teaspoon of cream of tartar for extra potassium, and then a couple of pinches of some sea salt, really replenish your electrolytes, but also it helps the adrenals you know that so maybe taking a mineral supplement also is a good idea. That’s the first thing the second thing is now that you’re going to be eating more fats, hopefully, healthy fats, you need to break down that fat and what’s required to do so is bile. bile is produced from the liver the liver is the soccer mom organ because she does everything for us and we have not treated her well. I mean the liver, we have beaten her up with medications and alcohol and processed foods and toxins. So now the liver for most people produces sluggish bile, this sludge that cannot break down the facts and not help you assimilate Vitamins A D, and K which leads to people feeling like crap on keto, especially in the beginning. So we want to support that liver. Maybe taking an ox bile supplement could be great, but also eating more bitters, bitter for the liver, rugelach dandelion greens, ginger, organic shade-grown coffee, apple cider vinegar, artichokes, rosemary, lime, basil, these are all things that help stimulate bile production, and that those are going to be two keys for anybody new to keto, even if you’re not new to keto, if you’re struggling, you incorporate those two tips, and it’s going to be a game-changer for you.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, those are really, really great. And just to piggy also back off our interview that we did for your podcast. And we talked about the Coleen and the creatine to help repair the cell membrane if there are challenges methyl methylation challenges, so utilizing your B vitamins, not being able to convert folic acid into fully or not absorbing your B vitamins or having all of those toxins you mentioned earlier, and also having the microbial challenge, to begin with. One of the main functions of methylation is to flow and concentrate your bile as well. So that’s, that’s really key. So as far as the how do we do it, then like so you? How do we go about making sure that a lot of clients that I work with, we teach them, and they have we have a couple of strategies, but ultimately, if you’re starting to take your glucose levels, and you’re seeing a number and then you’re starting to see a ketone number, maybe take us through the genesis of what we’re looking for and how to most effectively achieve All things being equal.   Ben Azidi: Yeah. So in the book keto flex, I outlined my four pillars to really mastering keto and fasting and fasting strategy. So the first pillar is called adapting. So teaching your body to adapt to get fat adapted to use fat as the primary fuel source instead of sugar takes about 14 days. How do you do that? Well, I mentioned the bio I mentioned the salts in the electrolytes. Something else that I write about in the book is the two to two rule that I got from my mentor, Dr. Daniel Pompa, every day for the first 14 days want to hit these markers. So what it is the first two is two tablespoons of either olive oil or avocado oil. The second tool is two tablespoons of coconut oil or MCT oil. The third tool is two tablespoons of grass-fed butter or grass-fed ghee. And that final two is two teaspoons of sea salt. And that’s you don’t have that in one sitting? That’s a common question I get asked you have throughout the day with the foods you cook with, etc. But if you hit that it’s gonna teach your body’s start utilizing fatty acids for fuel instead of glucose. So you can bypass things like symptoms that might occur like the keto flu, which is really just carbohydrate withdrawal symptoms. So that’s an important rule to follow. That’s where I would start right there. And at the same time, you want to also look at using an app to track your macros, specifically your carbohydrates, I don’t really focus on calories, but carbohydrates in the beginning. So chronometer is a great one, I write about them in my book, but there’s a whole bunch of free ones out there, you want to gradually decrease your total carbohydrates to get it below 55, zero total grams for the day. At the same time, you want to increase those fats from that to two to two rule. And if you do that, it should be a seven to 14-day approach, then you could test your glucose and ketones and what you want to see, well, there are three ways to test ketones, there’s beta-hydroxy, butyrate, which is found in the blood, that’s typically the gold standard BHB. The unique thing about bhp, it could cross the blood-brain barrier, the brain could use it as a fuel source, there are breath ketones, which is acetone in the breath, and then there’s acetyl acetate in the urine. I don’t like testing urine strips, because when the body’s efficient at using ketones, it doesn’t spill out in the urine. And it could give you some false readings. So I would eliminate urine, breath typically doesn’t have the meters are not good. But there’s a good one called sense that I like, but I’m going to focus on blood because it’s the most common. So let’s say you’re testing now your glucose and ketones. If you hit point five or higher, with your blood ketones, you’re in ketosis, you’re actually burning fat. And at the same time, you want to see your glucose. If you’ve fasted, while you’re taking it to be somewhere between 70 and 90, if you’re hitting those numbers and your protocols working really well,   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome information. So you don’t recommend until you’ve got those 14 days down, and you’re doing the 222 and two, and in slowly inching your carbs below 50 to not start testing that glucose and ketones until then.   Ben Azidi: Yeah, I mean, you could if you want, but chances are, you’re not going to see ketones until you get 50 grams of carbs total or less. So the first day that you do that, you could start testing your ketones. You could look at your glucose before that. But the ketones, I would probably wait until you hit 50 or less total carbs.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I agree with the ketones, especially with people that have been on that roller coaster ride, and their liver is challenged and their energy is down and their mindset is in the bucket there. They’re not gonna hit those ketones. So as far as how quick Do you what’s not a rule of thumb, but if someone is, say, over 300 carbs a day, over a 14 day period, what is your titrate? Down look like?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, so a general rule would be if you’re, if you’re consuming 300 grams a day, then I want you to bring it down to 200 for the next three days, and then down to 150 for the following three days, and then do that do a three-day protocol until you hit 50 or less, that should take you about seven to 10 days to do so. I like that approach. Because you don’t have to go through symptoms necessarily and the keto flu when you do it that right that way and you feel good. Some people don’t like that approach. They want to go cold turkey, I’m kind of like that person. But if you do go cold turkey and you’ve been a sugar burner for that long, it’s gonna look ugly, just like if you were a couch potato for 10 years and go do a CrossFit workout. It’s gonna feel bad. So I do recommend the gradual approach. It’s not even that gradual I mean, seven to 10 days is a quick way to get in there.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right plus the asterisk of the electrolytes and the hydration and all of the liver bitters, bile, even took cod and other things that you recommended. So okay, great. So then when does the actual time-restricted eating window get layered on to that?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, I intentionally don’t do it in the beginning. I want the body to start using fat as a fuel source first. I think that’s important. And then after the first pillar is completed, the adapt pillar takes you 14 days. Then you go to the next After in the book, which is the fast pillar. So intermittent fasting strategies, and when we start really, really slow, we just start with 12 hours, right? So you’re done eating at 8 pm, go to bed break or break your fast at 8 am 12 hours. And then we kind of push that back every three days to a 16 eight approach where you’re fasting for 16 hours eating for eight hours. And that’s another 14-day protocol and that second pillar as well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Okay, great. So then as far as one of the questions I have for you, and I know it’s important in what you teach, is the glucose ketone index. So maybe explain a little bit of that, because it’s one of the ways that I justify being around Wi-Fi and having still my amalgams in my mouth where I have a good gate, Gk I. But I do have sluggish glucose on that level as well, like in the mid-90s, sometimes not too much over 100. But rarely do I see it in the 70s and 80s if I’m not really fasting and doing below a certain amount. So tell us the importance of not so much the absolute glucose, which I still think should be controlled, as you teach. But what the relevance of the Gk I number means and how that can be used as a tool.   Ben Azidi: Yeah, I don’t put too much emphasis on the Gk I think it’s great. I just never got into using that. And so what I teach is a little bit different, but it’s related to this. So I would look at your glucose and ketones like what we’re speaking about, and what we want to do. Ideally, if you’re taking your blood glucose and that fat in the fasted state, you want it to be somewhere between 70 and 90. Now for ketones, a lot of people are chasing ketones when they should be chasing results. We don’t necessarily want a high amount of ketones just like we don’t want high amounts of glucose when the body is really fat-adapted, and then eventually keto-adapted, you’re not going to see really high ketones. It’s not, we don’t want that we want the sweet spot that I’ve seen is similar between 0.8 and 2.8. So we’ll look at that. And then let’s say you’re also you’re eating a meal, a keto-friendly meal, ideally, then you could take your postprandial blood glucose, so one hour after eating a meal, you can take your blood glucose, and you want to see that below 120, right 120 or below, two hours after that meal, so two hours postprandial, you want to see that glucose drop below 100. At the same time, you still want your ketones to be in that same range of 0.8 to two-point. So if you’re hitting those numbers, I like looking at that versus the Gk I, then the protocol is working really well.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, and that’s an important elaboration in terms of insulin being the kryptonite to ketones. And if you’re eating a high glycemic load, you’re going to create a big spike. And it’s going to take a lot longer to get that glucose below 120 after an hour or below 100 after two hours, and what’s happening is you’re chilling your ketone. So if you have a meal that has a low glycemic load, and you’re cutting it with healthy fats and putting not too many proteins, and obviously you’re below your 50 carbs, you will see that what I’m saying it’s probably because of the people that I work with, that are exhausted burnt out, but have also had mold exposures and chemicals and so forth. Whether that means they’re not eating cupcakes and bomb bonds, Ben but they still have their glucose being sluggish that they have that cortisol awakening response with the sun’s, you know, the sunrise phenomena. And that becomes challenging. So as far as what are some of your, your hacks, if you will, for people that may have some challenges like they don’t get into that ketone after 14 days with your wreck? Yeah.   Ben Azidi: Good question. So I would let’s address the glucose part, right? So there are some things that we can do to help take glucose into a healthier range. Definitely making sure you’re getting quality sleep each night, seven hours each night because we know that just one poor night of sleep and the next morning will result in higher levels of cortisol, glucose follows cortisol, insulin follows glucose and ketones drop. And you have higher levels of ghrelin, the hunger hormone, lower levels of leptin, the satiety hormone, just from one poor night of sleep. So start with sleep. Let’s say you’re doing that you’re working on your sleep, then what are some other ways to naturally drop glucose cold exposure could be great, whether it’s a cold shower or Polar Plunge, even heating, heat exposure. Asana could also help exercise Burst Training to help burn down those blood sugars Berberian is a great supplement that you can take to help drop-down blood sugars. I would caution though, if you’re taking a blood-reducing medication and you’re doing these things, you might go hypoglycemic. So you got to make sure you work with your doctor or practitioner to make sure you’re not getting that result. And then as far as getting your ketones up, there’s a couple of ways to do so. The rule will help you do that. Let’s say you’re doing that and you’re still not really hitting those ketones up. So what I’ve seen is MCT oil, specifically c eight caprylic acid. The research has been shown that it could help double, sometimes even triple, or quadruple ketone production. The reason is that MCT medium-chain triglycerides, specifically caprylic acid, C eight, bypasses digestion, there’s no bile required to break it down. So it enters your cells very efficiently the mitochondria B cells. So you can combine that with high-quality coffee and caffeine has also been shown to help produce ketones. Now, of course, if you’re a patient or listener, Joel, you do want to caution with caffeine because if you already have adrenal fatigue, you don’t want to make it worse. But that has been shown in some of the research on caffeine. So what I do is I’ll have like a fatty keto cup of coffee, where I have high-quality coffee, I have a little bit of some MCT oil a little bit some grass-fed ghee, and some sea salt. And that’ll be a great way to help turn my brain on in the morning.   Dr. Joel Rosen: That’s awesome. Ben, thanks for sharing that as far as some of the ways to flex. So when do we flex into and out of ketosis now that we’re getting our wings and we’re becoming more adaptive? And we’re on chat. We’re on the second and third and fourth pillar, I’m sure that that gets in there. But maybe give us an idea on Okay, well, now, why do I need to get out of this? This is so good. And, and how do I know when to?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, yeah, important, important questions there. So 60 days is the protocol and the book after six zero-days, we start flexing. The third pillar before we get to the flex pillar is called phase. And in that pillar, it’s a 30-day protocol, we phase out all anti-nutrients. So all vegetables and fruits just for 30 days, we actually do more of a carnivore approach, and I teach four different levels, just to help heal the gut get rid of these plant toxins. The answer is not to do carnivore forever, the answer is not to do vegan forever, or even keto forever, the answer is to vary it up and create that shift and adaptation, what is actually really important is the change, sometimes even more than what you’re you’re changing it to it’s that hormesis. So we know from hormesis. It’s good stress, and but it has a curve, right? When when you’re creating a change when you’re starting keto or flexing out of keto, you have this for me says curve that’s starting to go up so you’re benefiting, you’re feeling better, then you stick with it too long, all of a sudden, boom, it starts to drop, just like if you go to the gym, you are exercising, you get that Hermes curve, you get results, you do the same exercises over and over and over, all of a sudden that curve drops. So after you complete that third phase, the third pillar is called phase, then we start the flex pillar. And the reason we don’t want to stay in ketosis for too long, and I would say you know, it’ll depend on the person in the book, I’m teaching you 60 days, somebody who has severe insulin resistance and diabetes, they want might want to be in ketosis for six months, and then start flexing, but 60 days for most people, the reason we don’t want to stay in ketosis long term, there’s not one culture in the history of this world ancient culture that stuck with the same diet long term wasn’t until the last 50 years that we have this new problem, number one, number two actually have seen fat loss start to slow down with people who are stuck in ketosis with chronically low levels of insulin. Because when you look at the body, the number one priority for the body is survival. The innate intelligence wants to survive. So if you’ve only given it one fuel source, which is fat, isn’t it going to want to slow down that precious fuel source? The answer is yes. And the analogy is this. It’s like picture yourself being in the woods in the summertime. And you know that in a few months, it’s going to be the wintertime and it’s going to be a cold, four or five months of cold temperatures. So you start storing firewood, picture this firewood as your body fat, you start storing 20 logs and firewood and now winter rolls around, you have four or five months of cold weather, but you only have 20 logs of fire, you’re going to want to preserve that precious fuel source you’re going to burn that fuel source as slowly as possible, right? Same thing, when you’re stuck in ketosis and you only burn fat for fuel, your body’s gonna want to slow down that precious fuel source. But when you have a keto flex day, it’s like your buddy coming over and dumping 200 logs of firewood and saying go ahead and burn it up, then you’re gonna be more motivated and inspired to ramp up the burning a keto flex day reminds the body of not starving, it actually resets some of the leptin receptor sites as well. Another final reason we don’t want to stay in ketosis long term is because of thyroid issues, especially in women. Insulin is not the bad guy. As you know, Joel, we wouldn’t exist today. If we didn’t have insulin, it’s a survival mechanism. So when you have chronically low levels of insulin, what happens is this, the thyroid produces the hormone t four which as you know is the inactive form of thyroid and needs to be out activated t three, and T three is a very important hormone, it’s so important that every cell has a receptor site for t three, what helps make that conversion from inactive to active is insulin. So when you have chronically low levels of insulin, that conversion will begin to dysfunctional and thyroid problems could start to happen. So those are the reasons why we don’t want to stay in ketosis long term.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, no, that’s awesome. And it’s amazing because you’ve talked about how our body has been programmed and engineered, over the millennia to not be a farmed, Reliant type of biochemistry, also stressed the importance of going into and out of ketosis based on the seasons and what we’re available. And I think it’s amazing that you’re teaching this, Ben, I’m excited to talk to you and excited to get my signed version of the book as well. I can’t wait. No, it’s really great information. So as far as you hear the word, and I use the word as well, what does metabolic flexibility mean to you? And how does that go along with what we’ve already talked about?   Ben Azidi: Metabolic flexibility is the goal. That is the goal for everybody. And when you’re actually in ketosis for too long, you could actually be less than less metabolically flexible, you just teach your body to burn fat, and then you have more carbs, and you feel like crap. And you’re saying, oh, I shouldn’t flex out because I feel like crap. That’s not the answer. But what metabolic flexibility is teaching your body to be very efficient at burning fat, and then switching to glucose and then switch to fat and back and forth. So when you do this the right way, and you have your keto flex, then you intentionally get yourself out of ketosis. If you have metabolic flexibility and metabolic freedom, and then you go back into ketosis The next day, or you start eating keto, the next day, you should be right back into ketosis within 48 hours, that’s metabolic flexibility. We don’t want to be stuck in sugar burners, we don’t want to be stuck as fat burners, we want to be able to go in between the two sources. Right, right. It’s a really great litmus test.   Dr. Joel Rosen: I think, for people, I used to be a trainer as well. And I used to get frustrated when you would see, and this is a stereotype. But you would see sort of the office, female going to the aerobics classes back in the day with lots of aerobics classes, and they do the aerobics class, and then you get them to go on a stair climber, or they go for a ski trip, or you get them to lift the weight, and they don’t have that cross-train effect. And ultimately, I think that’s a good way to look at metabolic flexibility is that you can, can withstand the imposed demands on the body, that’s what homeostasis is. And hormesis is an understanding, in general with what I teach in terms of metabolic adrenal fatigue and maintaining your body’s homeostasis. It’s also the ability to get into and out of ketosis because you’re dialing in your body physiologically. So let me ask you this, then as far as personally, when you initially started and you went down to the into and you’re getting less than 50 grams of carbs per day, and then you are then now looking at your window, I would imagine that your threshold to be able to have more carbs or your threshold to be able to have more fat, or in some naughty ways, your threshold to have a glass of wine has allowed you to keep that metabolic flexibility. Personally, for you, Ben, what what is realistic to see on that, you know, in terms of how much of a swing you can do, so you don’t always have to keep it below 50. As you flex and get into and out of ketosis and support your body. You don’t have all these waste products from being a sugar burner. And then next thing you know, you’re changing around your microbiome and your mindset starting to get on point and everything’s really working. And you are super metabolically flexible. What does it mean to the old numbers that would require you to be there and the new numbers like specifically for you, what does that look like?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, I could probably have about 75 grams to 85 grams of carbs and still be in ketosis. Of course, it depends on what carbs I’m having. So ideally, you want to make sure it’s like green leafy vegetables, nonstarchy carbs. But yeah, the more you do it, the more flexibility you have, especially if you’re very active. The more active you are, the more muscle you have, the more flexibility the more wiggle room you have. There are probably some people out there, I would imagine, like Ben Greenfield, right? That guy’s super active, super metabolically flexible, he could probably have 100 grams of carbs per day and still be in Tennessee. So yes, that’s the good news. So you’re going to be able to have more wiggle room, the more you go up this metabolic machinery.   Dr. Joel Rosen: And as far as protein, have you found throat protein thresholds for yourself personally, or the people that you work with are being exceeded and they start to create insulin spikes and dropping the ketones because of a protein threshold? Is that a real thing that you see or is it more anecdotal? Tell me a little bit about that.   Ben Azidi: You know, if you were to ask me that question a couple of years ago, I would have said yes, you know, restrict your protein. cuz of that, you know the thought process that’s gonna kick you out of ketosis. But I don’t believe that anymore actually think more protein on keto is better. Because yes, protein does elicit an insulin response, but it’s a phase two insulin response, which is a much smaller insulin response than a phase one. And then also, let’s say, from some of the research I’ve looked at, like Dr. Gabrielle Lyon, she’s a great researcher on protein. Her research has shown that for every 100 grams of protein that you consume, about 60 grams is converted into sugar via gluconeogenesis. Now, that might make you cautious with protein because it might not get contentious. However, if you’re in ketosis, that means your glycogen stores are really low in your sugar reserves. So let’s say you do have the 100 grams of protein and you do get the 60 grams converted, those six grams of glucose are just going to be used to refill your liver and muscle glycogen stores, not necessarily knock you out of ketosis. So for most people, it’s not going to kick you out of ketosis. I like more protein because protein helps you feel full, it helps you feel satisfied, it activates causes the kinase peptide yy, glucagon, like peptide, leptin, these are all hormones and chemicals and peptides that help you feel bull still prevents you from snacking and prevents you from falling off track. So the rule of thumb that I read about in the book, keto flex is to consume about 40 to 50 grams of ideally animal-based protein at all of your meals, which is about eight to 10 ounces of protein.   Dr. Joel Rosen: So as far as Is there a rule of thumb than in terms of like you hear like a pound of for every pound of bodyweight, a gram of protein or half a pound? Do you have any of those numbers that you go by it?   Ben Azidi: Oh, yeah, I mean, it depends on the person, right? So somebody who’s under the age of 21, wants to go a little bit higher, especially somebody who’s over the age of 60 wants to go a little bit higher, but if you’re in between 0.8 to 1.0 gram per lean body weight. So if you have determined like your lean body weight is 140 140 pounds, then you would have about 0.8 to one gram per body weight.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Gotcha. Okay, great. Excellent. So tell me exactly what is keto camp? what do you have behind you? And what is the keto cap for our listeners?   Ben Azidi: Keto camp, we’re an online brand. We’re represented all over the world right now. And we are just on a mission to educate and to inspire 1 billion people to teach them these ancient healing strategies. So we have our YouTube channel, which is Quito camp campus spelled with a K on YouTube, we have over 121,000 subscribers on there. Currently, we have the keto cam podcast with Joel was just recently on, we’re gonna I’m excited to release that it was an amazing conversation. And then we have our keto cap Academy, which is, I believe, the world’s greatest, most comprehensive keto fasting program where I really deep dive into my four pillars, and I offer health coaching to all the members in there. You can learn more about that over at keto camp Academy calm. So we just want to get the information out there. We want to cut through all the noise out there, not just in the keto space, but in the health space so we can get the science delivered to you in a way that you understand. So you can apply it and then share it with your community.   Dr. Joel Rosen: No, that’s great. So three parting questions that I have for you. And so the first one is, from all the members that are part of the keto camp, what would you say the ones that stick out to you because I know this Jazz’s me up and gives me energy when I hear if I’m having a tough day, but then I hear about a success story that we helped someone with. So anything that comes off the top of your head, Ben, in terms of some of the success stories that you’ve had with your followers that listen to your advice and follow the keto flex approach, what were some of the things that are stick out in your mind?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, it’s so inspiring. For example, one of the members I wrote about her book support when she started the keto camp Academy, she had PCLS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And she didn’t have a period of over 10 years a monthly cycle. And after just about 60 plus days of doing this work, she got her first period, and she lost 20 pounds in those 60 days. Now fast forward, she’s down about I think 60 something pounds, and she gets a normal monthly cycle right perfect example remove the interference, let the body heal. Shannon, another member of I wrote about in the book, was able to get off for insulin, and her blood pressure blood sugar medication in about 70 days after doing these protocols working with their doctor. And then another member laura Laura painter, she when we first hopped on a call, she had been studying health inclusion for years, but I helped identify some hidden things going on like cavitations in the mouth, silver fillings, and then I taught her Quito the way that I taught it to her and now she just transformed she just competed in a bodybuilder champ competition. She got second place. He’s 61 years old. So these are just incredible, very inspiring stories.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, that’s awesome. I’m sure you have plenty more as well. So Yeah, the second one is and I didn’t tell you about this before we started. So it’s an easy question to ask, but I usually tell my guests before we started and I forgot, but I take it you’ll be able to be on your toes. So, as far as what could the wise Sage like Ben Azadi tell the naive, bright-eyed, and bushy-tailed Ben Azadi in terms of health information that would have given you such an advantage beyond having to learn it over all these years? What would you have said to yourself back then that would have propelled you further faster, farther, if you would have known about it when you were younger,   Ben Azidi: That it takes years not months to get really healthy. We’ve done a lot of damage over a lifetime, we expect to get just heal within weeks or months. But it takes two years, not months. And to always go upstream to identify root cause interference and to look at symptoms as is actually a good thing. It’s telling you something’s wrong. Now let’s get to the root cause of why there is a symptom. So that’s what I would have told myself.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Yeah, I think understanding that is key because it controls expectations. And it helps you identify and, and appreciate. Like we said, gratitude and celebration, the things that are moving the things that are working, even though it’s not back to normal, what you’re used to being normal, you’re not taking time to appreciate those small changes. And if you don’t like you said, You’re not going to receive the therapeutic benefit of the things that need to be done, because that’s the glue that brings everything together. So that’s awesome stuff. And then most importantly, the last question is, how do we go about getting your keto to flex book? Because I know it to be released?   Ben Azidi: Yeah, I do. Thank you for asking. So you can get it right now over at keto flex book.com. It’s going to be available for kindle and paperback. It’s 311 pages of I believe, keto gold. So keto flex book calm, I’d love for you to get it and enjoy the book.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Well, awesome. Look, you know, I always learn I always say selfishly like if just in case, my listeners aren’t listening right now that I do these interviews for myself, because I like to learn, and then they just get the benefit of hearing what I learned during the hourly. I love doing that. And obviously, I always learned something new. I love the idea of the two, how much do the two and two equate to in terms of fat grams, typically?   Ben Azidi: I don’t know. I’ve never been I don’t really focus on that. I only focus on the carbohydrate. Macro counting. Dr. Joel Rosen: Right, Right. Right, gotcha.   Ben Azidi: But we could simply just look it up, you know, and find your good.   Dr. Joel Rosen: you could but I would imagine though, that sometimes part of the challenges for people getting into ketosis is not so much the carbs as well, but also that they just didn’t get enough healthy fats.   Ben Azidi: Correct. Yeah, bingo. Exactly.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Right. Okay. And then, as far as I always welcome the opportunity to be able to do a second interview because by the time you and I meet again, and our ships crossing the night, you’ll have so much new information, and I’d love to get you back on the podcast, but thank you for everything that you do. Ben, you’re an inspiration. And I love that you got the books. I love that your mission-driven purpose, a billion people awesome mission statement. And thank you so much for all that you do, Ben.   Ben Azidi: Thank you, Joe. I appreciate you and your work and yes for round two. Absolutely.   Dr. Joel Rosen: Awesome. Have a great day. You too.   How To Do a Keto Diet Perfectly The post Keto Fasting Tips For Adrenal Fatigue With Ben Azadi appeared first on The Truth About Adrenal Fatigue.