The Carol Gilligan Ep

For my recent New York Times Magazine article on my experience of doing couples therapy with noted therapist Terry Real, I interviewed Terry’s old friend and former collaborator Carol Gilligan. This is an edited version of that conversation, which is in part about Terry but also more broadly about issues of gender roles and relationships, patriarchy and politics.Gilligan, now in her 80s, is probably best known for her landmark 1982 book In a Different Voice: Psychological Theory and Women's Development, which proposed a new model of early psychological development that distinguished between how boys and girls develop.She’s since written a host of other books, including The Birth of Pleasure: A New Map of Love; Meeting at the Crossroads: Women's Psychology and Girls' Development; Women, Girls and Psychotherapy: Reframing Resistance; and most recently Why does patriarchy persist? and Darkness now visible: patriarchy's resurgence and feminist resistance.I wrote about Gilligan and Real in a recent post on this Substack, describing how they met and ended up collaborating:“I think there’s a deep love of men in Terry,” says the feminist psychologist Carol Gilligan, who first met Real in the late 1990s, after she positively reviewed his book on male depression, I Don’t Want to Talk About It, in The New York Times. Gilligan had just returned to the US from England to accept a chair in gender studies at Harvard, and Real was teaching and practicing nearby at a family therapy institute in Cambridge. She was invited to visit the institute, and while there she observed Real, through a one way mirror, working with a married couple. She was struck by the intensity of his therapeutic presence, and by the way that his confrontation of men was able to simultaneously draw in both halves of the couple.“I hadn’t seen a therapist who had the ability Terry had to talk with men,” she says, “and to name what was going on. I think men could hear it, and I would watch the woman, and her eyes would open wide: ’Oh my god, somebody’s saying it.’”Soon Gilligan and Real began seeing couples together. At the time, Gilligan was also working with psychologist Judy Chu on a project observing four-year-old boys in pre-school. What she and Chu ended up charting was a kind of inverse of the psychological stunting process that Gilligan had identified in her earlier, groundbreaking work on the development of girls. Where girls, beginning in adolescence, would often suppress their “masculine” assertiveness and voice, boys, at age four or so, would begin to suppress their “feminine” capacities to perceive and respond to the internal states of themselves and others. Under pressure from their peers and parents, they’d begin to go emotionally dumb. Gilligan wondered if many of the romantic conflicts faced by adult couples were rooted in these parallel failures of development, and whether one could heal adult relationships by bringing these earlier selves into relation to each other in therapy.“Where was the emotionally honest 11-year-old girl who said what she saw and felt?” she says. “And where was that emotionally intelligent four-year-old boy from my studies with boys who would say things like, ’Mommy, why do you smile when you’re sad?’ I thought: if you could get these two people in the room, they could work out the problems in the relationship.”We talk about her work with Terry, her work with fathers of young boys, early psychological development, her take on Terry’s approach to working with me, and much more. It’s a relatively brief, but I think quite rich, conversation. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit danieloppenheimer.substack.com/subscribe