Conversations with David J. Temple

In this conversation Marc Gafni, Zak Stein, and Ken Wilber delve into the complex nature of value, exploring its definitions, interconnectedness, and implications in various contexts. The speakers discuss the relationship between Eros, ethics, and the concept of holons, emphasizing the importance of understanding value as a field that encompasses all aspects of existence. They also touch on the balance of drives, the role of consciousness, and the evolutionary process of value, ultimately seeking to clarify the intricate dynamics that govern our understanding of value in the universe.

This conversation delves into the complex themes of value, postmodernism, and the interplay between eternal and evolving values. The speakers explore how postmodernism has influenced contemporary views on value, the significance of storytelling in understanding time, and the human role in shaping values within a cosmic framework. They discuss the philosophical implications of these ideas, drawing on historical and contemporary thinkers to illustrate their points.

The conversation explores the concept of selection and its role in the universe. It delves into the idea that selection exists at multiple levels, from physics to biology to human civilization. The discussion also touches on the question of why certain things are selected for and others are not, and how humans have the ability to override natural selection through technology. The conversation highlights the importance of understanding the values and principles that underlie selection processes in order to navigate the challenges of the metacrisis and ensure a positive future. Desire is a sacred and powerful force that moves towards value. Without a field of value, we are stuck in old scripts and pseudo forms of value. The selection criteria and story can be changed by introducing the value of clarifying desire. Imagination is the faculty that perceives the first principles and first values, allowing us to hold the image of others when they are not present. The imaginal faculty is essential for empathy and understanding. Fantasy is the ability to hold the image of another's need and imagine possible futures. The imagination is crucial for envisioning a better world and creating change.

The conversation explores the story of the Garden of Eden in Genesis. It delves into the themes of sexuality, loneliness, autonomy, and the birth of humanity. The text is seen as a journey of becoming human, with the fall and the punishments as necessary steps in the process. The discussion highlights the importance of leaving the garden and embracing the tensions and challenges of human existence. It concludes with the idea that returning to the garden is not a restorative redemption, but a utopian redemption where one has evolved and transformed.

In this conversation, Marc Gafni, Ken Wilber, and Zak Stein delve into the concept of value, particularly focusing on attention as a crucial value. They explore various dimensions of value, including its interconnectedness, the role of pleasure in ethics, and the significance of weight and gravitas. The discussion also touches on the evolution of value and the relationship between number and story, emphasizing how these concepts are intertwined in understanding reality.

In this conversation, Zak Stein and Marc Gafni discuss the concept of desire and its role in human existence. They explore the idea that desire is a fundamental aspect of reality and that it shapes our experience of the world. They also delve into the story of the Garden of Eden and its symbolic significance, highlighting the themes of desire, loneliness, and the search for connection. The conversation touches on the different aspects of desire, the relationship between power and desire, and the importance of understanding the interplay between devotion and desire. Overall, the conversation offers a deep exploration of desire and its implications for human life.

The conversation explores the concept of scripts of desire and how they shape our understanding of reality. The hosts discuss the story of the Garden of Eden as a script of desire and how different interpretations of the story reveal our own scripts of desire. They also delve into the idea that reality itself is a script of desire and that our participation in reality is expressed through our unique desires. The conversation highlights the importance of clarifying our desires and aligning them with the desires of reality. They also touch on the influence of advertising and the need to be conscious of the scripts of desire that are being imposed on us.

In this conversation, Marc Gafni, Ken Wilber, and Zak Stein discuss the relationship between desire and value. They explore different perspectives on desire, ranging from it being a degraded condition to it being a deed that can be controlled. They argue that desire is a condition and that clarifying desire is a way to honor its dignity. They also discuss the concept of value and its connection to prehension, emphasizing that value is both a product and a cause of prehension. They introduce the term 'Eros value' to describe the interplay between desire and value. The conversation concludes with a discussion on the need for a new language and grammar of value. 00:00 Exploring the Concept of Value 04:40 The Role of Holons and Desire 09:01 Chemistry as the Music of Desire 12:43 The Periodic Table of Desire Value 17:23 Understanding Will and Desire 23:00 The Dignity of Desire 31:26 Desire as a Condition 36:18 Value as a Product and Cause of Prehension 45:27 Introducing Eros Value 49:58 The Need for a New Language and Grammar of Value

The conversation explores the concept of scripts of desire and their role in lineage and science. The name of God is seen as the fundamental structure of reality, and in the lineage of Solomon, it is a four-letter word that means desire. The song of Solomon is a script of desire that discloses value and generates rights. In science, holons are seen as scripts of desire, and each level of wholeness represents a new value and an aspirational script of desire. The conversation also touches on the influence of scripts of desire in identity formation and the impact of advertising on shaping scripts of desire. Chapters 00:00 Introduction 01:28 The Name of God: A Script of Desire 03:07 The Song of Solomon: A Script of Desire that Discloses Value 11:59 Holons in Science: Scripts of Desire and Wholeness 18:00 Scripts of Desire and Identity Formation 20:43 The Influence of Advertising on Scripts of Desire 25:07 Conclusion

The conversation explores the concept of value and its relationship to Eros. It delves into the distinction between Eros as a quality of being and a quality of becoming. The discussion highlights the hijacking of Eros as a feminine quality and emphasizes that Eros is both feminine and masculine. The conversation also touches on the involutionary given of value and its role in cosmic evolution. It explores the idea that value is the space in which everything arises and that desire discloses value. The ontology of story is also discussed, with the understanding that all stories are scripts of desire and value. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Setting the Context 02:46 Eros as a Quality of Being and Becoming 05:02 The Space of Value 08:46 The Quality of Irreducible Rightness 10:18 The Aspirational Ought 13:22 Value as an Intrinsic Ought

In this conversation, Marc and Zak discuss the nature of value and its relationship to desire. They explore the idea that value is clarified desire and that it is self-validating. They also discuss the connection between value and the name of God, as well as the role of story and pleasure in understanding value. They critique the distortion of value in contemporary culture and emphasize the importance of clarifying and reanimating our desires. They conclude by highlighting the intimate relationship between value and pleasure. Takeaways Desire and need are interconnected but can be distinguished. Desire generates responsibility, while need generates rights. The right to attention is crucial in the technological age, as it allows individuals to exercise their other rights. The expansion of rights is necessary to protect human dignity and ensure equal access to fundamental aspects of human nature. Desire is a powerful force that should be clarified and protected, as it is essential for personal fulfillment and the well-being of society. The relationship between desire, rights, and responsibilities is complex and requires ongoing reflection and dialogue. Timestamps 00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage 01:05 The Right to Sex and Gender Conversations 04:08 First Principles and First Values0 5:07 Desire as a Fundamental Structure of Reality 06:04 The Split Between Desire and Need 07:29 The Relationship Between Desire and Value 08:58 Rights and Responsibilities 10:06 Rights and Human Nature 11:28 Expanding the List of Rights 12:56 The Right to Attention 15:13 The Relationship Between Rights and Responsibilities 15:48 The System of Rights 24:28 Protecting Attention in the Technological Age 26:05 The Need to Name New Rights 27:28 The Relationship Between Desire and Power 29:01 The Relationship Between Desire and Need 33:09 The Right to Desire and the Right to Attention 35:21 Generating Desire and Responsibility 37:00 The Poignancy of Desire 40:12 The Evolution of Desire and Need 42:52 The Needs of God

The conversation explores the importance of value and the consequences of devaluing life and meaning. It discusses the impact of deconstructing the field of value and the emergence of anti-value. The absence of value leads to a predatory and destructive mindset. The conversation emphasizes the need to recognize and engage with value in education, society, and personal development. It also highlights the connection between value and the human drive to stay alive and reproduce. The discussion concludes by emphasizing the necessity of value in creating a meaningful and welcoming universe. Takeaways Value is essential and fundamental to human existence and society. Devaluing life and meaning leads to destructive mindsets and behaviors. Recognizing and engaging with value is crucial in education, society, and personal development. Value is connected to the human drive to stay alive and reproduce. Value creates a meaningful and welcoming universe. Timestamps 00:00 Introduction: Why is value important? 07:51 The Importance of Value in Human Existence 25:37 Engaging with Value in Education and Society 30:36 The Connection Between Value and the Drive to Stay Alive 35:00 Creating a Meaningful and Welcoming Universe

Summary This conversation explores the relationship between desire, rights, and responsibilities. It delves into the concept of a right to desire and the need to clarify desire. The chapters cover topics such as the split between desire and need, the relationship between desire and value, and the importance of attention in the technological age. The conversation also discusses the expansion of rights and the need to protect attention in a society driven by technology. It concludes with a reflection on the poignancy of desire and the evolution of desire and need. Takeaways Desire and need are interconnected but can be distinguished. Desire generates responsibility, while need generates rights. The right to attention is crucial in the technological age, as it allows individuals to exercise their other rights. The expansion of rights is necessary to protect human dignity and ensure equal access to fundamental aspects of human nature. Desire is a powerful force that should be clarified and protected, as it is essential for personal fulfillment and the well-being of society. The relationship between desire, rights, and responsibilities is complex and requires ongoing reflection and dialogue. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Setting the Stage 01:05 The Right to Sex and Gender Conversations 04:08 First Principles and First Values 05:07 Desire as a Fundamental Structure of Reality 06:04 The Split Between Desire and Need 07:29 The Relationship Between Desire and Value 08:58 Rights and Responsibilities 10:06 Rights and Human Nature 11:28 Expanding the List of Rights 12:56 The Right to Attention 15:13 The Relationship Between Rights and Responsibilities 15:48 The System of Rights 24:28 Protecting Attention in the Technological Age 26:05 The Need to Name New Rights 27:28 The Relationship Between Desire and Power 29:01 The Relationship Between Desire and Need 33:09 The Right to Desire and the Right to Attention 35:21 Generating Desire and Responsibility 37:00 The Poignancy of Desire 40:12 The Evolution of Desire and Need 42:52 The Needs of God

Summary The conversation explores the topics of wholeness and value and the relationship between them. Ken, Marc, and Zak discuss the concept of anthro-ontology, which is the study of the true essence and nature of human beings. They also delve into the idea of the mystery within us and how it relates to wholeness. The conversation touches on the importance of asking the fundamental questions of where am I, who am I, and what ought I do. They also discuss the inclusion of the why question and how it can be answered through deep practice and a seeking of wholeness. The hosts explore different theories of value and the distinction between intrinsic and instrumental value. They also touch on the relationship between separate self and unique self, and the concept of true self. The conversation explores the relationship between ego and Unique Self, pointing out the confusion and hijacking that can occur. It delves into the distinction between instrumental value and absolute value, and how they are not completely unrelated. The discussion also highlights the misvaluation of nature and the need to align use value with exchange value. The conversation emphasizes the importance of reintroducing a linguistic understanding of value and the field of value in countering simplistic economic reductionism. It concludes by addressing the crisis of meaning and the need to clarify value as a cure. Takeaways Wholeness and value are two faces of the same concept, and exploring their relationship is important. Asking the fundamental questions of where am I, who am I, and what ought I do can provide direction and orientation in life. The why question can be included in the exploration of wholeness and value, but it should be answered through deep practice and a seeking of wholeness. There are different theories of value, including intrinsic value and instrumental value. The concepts of separate self and unique self relate to the idea of true self, which is the ultimate individuation of the self. The ego and Unique Self have a complex relationship, with the ego often confusing and hijacking the value of Unique Self. There is a distinction between instrumental value and absolute value, but they are not completely unrelated. There is a misvaluation of nature, with exchange value overshadowing the true ecological value. Reintroducing a linguistic understanding of value and the field of value is crucial in countering economic reductionism. The crisis of meaning can be addressed by clarifying value and understanding the interconnectedness of value and meaning. Value is not static but evolving, and meaning is rooted in the field of value. Conversations are the exchange of meaning embedded in value and are essential to the human condition. Creativity should be recontextualized within the field of value. Conversations play a crucial role in addressing the meaning crisis and countering the devaluation of conversations by AI. Chapters 00:00 Introduction and Setting the Context 03:12 Exploring Anthroontology and the Mystery Within Us 07:14 The Importance of the Why Question 12:45 The Destructive and Creative Aspects of the Why 24:08 Different Theories of Value 29:21 The Concepts of Separate Self and Unique Self 32:24 The Confusion and Hijacking of Ego and Unique Self 34:34 The Distinction Between Instrumental Value and Absolute Value 35:19 The Misvaluation of Nature and the Need for Alignment 36:48 Reintroducing a Linguistic Understanding of Value 50:44 Addressing the Crisis of Meaning through Clarifying Value 01:06:56 The Evolving Nature of Value 01:09:25 The Essential Role of Conversations 01:12:25 Recontextualizing Creativity within Value 01:13:31 Addressing the Meaning Crisis and the Threat of AI

SummaryThe conversation explores the concept of attention and its role in various first values and principles. It discusses the collapse of attention and its impact on the meta crisis. The importance of basic attention and the effects of social media on attention are also examined. The conversation delves into the history of attention through different eras, including pre-modern, modern, and post-modern. It concludes with a discussion on the return to text in the digital age.TakeawaysAttention is a fundamental principle and value that underlies many first values and principles.The collapse of attention is a significant factor contributing to the meta crisis.Social media and digital technologies have had a profound impact on attention.The history of attention can be traced through different eras and the evolution of communication technologies.The return to text in the digital age has both positive and negative implications for attention.Chapters00:00 Introduction and First Principles02:22 The Collapse of Attention and the Meta Crisis03:19 The Eros Equation and Attention07:20 The Intimacy Equation and Attention08:30 The Uniqueness Equation and Attention13:35 The Impact of Social Media on Attention16:59 The Importance of Basic Attention19:31 The Many Watching the Few and the Few Watching the Many24:34 The Collapse of Attention and the Cause of Evil25:18 Recap of Pre-Modern, Modern, and Post-Modern Attention29:10 The History of Attention through Communication Technologies35:26 The Return to Text in the Digital Age

Summary This conversation explores the concept of attention and its importance in our lives. It delves into the attention economy and the hijacking of attention in the digital age. The speakers discuss the value of attention and its role in uniqueness, eros, and intimacy. They also examine the evolution of attention and its expression in pre-modern, modern, and post-modern times. The conversation highlights the distinction between attending beings and reliably differentially responding beings. It explores the problems with surveillance and the degradation of attention in conditioning. Ultimately, the conversation emphasizes the fundamental need for attention and the consequences of degrading it. Takeaways The attention economy involves the grabbing and hijacking of attention in order to keep people online and engaged. Attention is a core structure of cosmos and is intimately related to love, creativity, and intimacy. Surveillance degrades attention by reducing it to a form of control and manipulation. The vulnerability of the attentional system makes it susceptible to capture and exploitation. Attention is a fundamental human need and its degradation threatens our humanity. Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:46 The Attention Economy 03:02 The Problem with Stealing Attention 05:21 The Value of Attention 07:08 Attention as a Core Structure of Cosmos 08:49 The Evolution of Attention 10:08 Attention in Pre-Modern, Modern, and Post-Modern Times 11:19 Attention in Evolution 12:56 Joint Attention and Language 15:13 Attention in Intergenerational Transmission 18:05 The Universe Values Attention 20:36 The Relationship Between Love and Attention 23:55 Continuity and Discontinuity of Attention 26:05 The Difference Between Attending Beings and Reliably Differentially Responding Beings 27:40 The Problem with Surveillance 29:14 The Distortion of Love and Attention 30:00 The Degrading of Attention in Surveillance 32:27 The Difference Between Surveillance and Conditioning 36:23 The Manipulation and Control of Attention 37:59 The Vulnerability of the Attentional System 39:08 The Need for Attention