Grey Pages

This episode is a bit of a therapy session for the boys as they reflect on some of the existential realities that we all face when it comes to resources.

We are so grateful that Leslie Kim was able to join us for this episode of Dezi Sessions!

In this episode Lindsey joins Taylor for another chat with Dezi

You don't wanna miss this one!

We are back with another incredible conversations with our big brother Dezi

We are so grateful for these sessions with Dezi

We are super excited to kick off this series with Dezi Baker. Buckle up!

"But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong"

A great conversations with one of Hugh's longtime co-conspirators

and we are back!

In this episode, we welcome Carl Olson and Justin Stice, two faithful practitioners embedded in very different but equally meaningful contexts. Carl joins us from Sioux Falls, South Dakota, where he's in the early stages of planting seeds for a Kingdom ecosystem, often feeling isolated but deeply rooted in a hope for what's to come. Justin shares from Lubbock, Texas, where over a decade of commitment has grown into a robust, distributed ecosystem of Kingdom communities, causes, and commerce.Together, we explore the tension between early-stage pioneering and long-term sustainability, the spiritual psychology of apostolic leadership, and the beautiful (and painful) reality that Kingdom work never really stabilizes. From coffee shops and after-school programs to spiritual rhythms and community meals, these two stories offer a look at what it means to love the work, trust the process, and stay faithful in both the wilderness and the forest.Key Themes:Apostolic beginnings and ecosystem buildingThe loneliness and isolation of pioneering workThe language and lens of Brave CitiesLearning from the poor and refugee communitiesFinding satisfaction in the process, not the resultThe false promise of stabilityHow community sustains mission over timeFeatured Guests:Carl Olson – Community practitioner and mental health professional in Sioux Falls, SD. Find him on Substack or social media. (@carlolson)Justin Stice – Founder of Kingdom Co-Op in Lubbock, TX & author of Whole Mess to Wholeness by Justin Stice⁠ Learn more at kingdomco-op.com, and @justinstice on Facebook/Instagram

This week on Grey Pages, we flip the script with a long-overdue ladies takeover episode! For the first time ever, we hear directly from the women who have been holding it down behind the scenes of the Brave Cities movement. Join Bree Linderman, Chelsea Repic, Cheryl Halter, and Lindsey McCall—the wives of Lance, Joel, Hugh, and Taylor—as they share candidly about life, marriage, motherhood, leadership, and living out a missional call as a family.This episode centers the voices of women whose steady presence, faithful discernment, and often-invisible work have helped shape families, ministries, and entire communities.In this episode, you’ll hear:🔥 How they’ve navigated mission as family, not just “supporting roles”🌪️ The balance between stability and flexibility in life and ministry🛑 Real talk about boundaries, burnout, and permission to say “no”💡 Why authenticity matters more than fitting into anyone else’s mold😂 Hilarious (and sometimes ridiculous) “war stories” from life in the trenches🙌 What’s helped them stay grounded through unpredictable seasons🧭 Words of wisdom they’d offer to their younger selves—and to anyone just starting the journeyKey Quotes:“It’s okay to say no. It’s okay to not be at everything. That doesn’t mean you’re failing.”“Don’t compare your life to someone else’s call—walk your road faithfully.”“Authentic community isn’t a luxury. It’s how we survive.”

In this episode, the Brave Cities crew explores a different kind of organizing principle: shared desire. Rather than building around outcomes, metrics, or even vision, we ask what happens when a community is rooted in a mutual longing — for Jesus, for justice, for neighbor love, for the poor, for the way of the Kingdom.Drawing on influences from René Girard to Walter Wink, and from 12-step communities to monastic orders, the conversation shifts the frame from performance to formation, from hierarchy to mutuality, and from strategic goals to embodied longing.Key ThemesDesire as the organizing principle of spiritual communityFrom top-down vision to decentralized invitationGirardian “mimetic desire” reframed through the lens of JesusWhy formation happens in process, not performanceCreating culture that pulls people up instead of pushing downThe difference between triangle leadership and circle communityInviting others into a life of desire without over-planning the pathNotable Quotes:“You don’t need a plan — you just need a desire worth living out.”“Fall in love with the process, not the outcome.”“If you stop walking, Babylon pulls you backward.”

– Lessons from Senegal with Joel RepicIn this special episode of the Grey Pages podcast, Joel Repic joins the team live from Senegal to share a deeply moving reflection on mission, suffering, and the slow, faithful cultivation of Kingdom ecosystems. What begins as a simple story about a fruit orchard becomes a rich metaphor for prophetic work in hard soil—spiritual, cultural, and literal.Joel recounts his time with a Senegalese pastor and his wife—pioneering believers in their tribe—who have built a refuge, a youth center, a school, and an orchard in one of the most difficult contexts imaginable. Together, the team explores what it means to fall in love with the process, to work with your hands, and to find hope not in the results, but in the slow, faithful labor of love.From aquaponics systems in Tampa to mango trees in Senegal, this conversation is a testament to those who plant where the ground is dry, who water with tears, and who stay even when there's little fruit—because they love the soil and the people on it.Topics Covered:The slow work of Kingdom ecosystems in hard placesWhy some of the most faithful work bears fruit far down the road—or not at allLearning from suffering, not success, in global missionThe healing power of working with your handsEmpire vs. Kingdom thinking: Results-driven vs. process-loving workAquaponics as a parable for community-buildingApostolic foundations and generational thinkingWhy “loving the process” might be the most sustainable posture for missionA Few Quotes:“He doesn’t just love results—he loves the soil and the people who live on it.”“It’s not normal for beautiful things to grow quickly.”“You might have to cut down the very tree you spent ten years tending.”“Kingdom work is everywhere. You’ll find Jesus in it—I promise.”Who This Episode is For:Mission workers, church planters, social entrepreneurs, anyone doing hard work in dry places, and all who need a reminder that slow faithfulness matters more than quick fruit.

👣 Episode OverviewWhat does it take to move from inspiration to action? In this episode, the Brave Cities crew is joined by digital strategist and pathway architect Jason Bowman, alongside longtime co-laborer Joel Repic from Aliquippa, PA. Together, they tackle the growing desire among church leaders and creatives to reimagine church, mission, and community life—and the sobering reality that very few actually make the leap.Through the lens of denominational structures, digital platforms, and embodied life among the poor, the team explores:Why inspiration rarely translates into real-world changeThe challenge and gift of being apostolic or prophetic in established systemsThe urgent need for clear, actionable pathways into sustainable missionWhat Leviticus, Moses, and benevolent trauma have to do with kingdom movementsThe role of structure, systems, and the Spirit in forming resilient alternatives to BabylonJason brings hard-earned wisdom from the online learning world, while Joel reflects deeply on denominational shifts and discerning God’s activity in the margins. Jon, Hugh, and Taylor weave in stories, metaphors, and convictions drawn from their own journeys into intentional, incarnational living.🔑 Key ThemesApostolic loneliness & the cost of loyaltyWhy most leaders recreate what they leftMaking obedience plausible through real pathwaysFrom prevailing models to prophetic experimentsFundraising, risk, and the economics of mission“Benevolent trauma” as an engine of transformationDual operating systems & monastic imaginationBuilding new wineskins without dishonoring old ones

In this episode, Jon, Hugh, and Taylor sit down with their longtime friend David Gobout from St. Louis to unpack the gritty, raw, and faithful journey of community-rooted ministry.David shares his evolution from entering a marginalized neighborhood with the classic church planting mindset to uncovering that what the neighborhood actually needed was something much different — presence, patience, listening, and decades of relationship-building.From running neighborhood events and building a beloved outdoor basketball court to taking over the historic Melvin Theater and opening it up for the community, David’s story reveals the heart of long-game ministry — where slow, faithful work creates deep roots and real trust.Topics we cover:✅ Why David didn’t plant a traditional church✅ What it means to uncover the “good news” in a neighborhood✅ How the Melvin Theater became a hub for help, hope, and collaboration✅ The challenge and beauty of playing the long game✅ Why small acts of love (like building a basketball court) matter more than flashy programs✅ The power of contextual mission — and why results may take decades✅ Rethinking success: from counting heads to reshaping perceptions of God

In this episode, the crew tackles a pressing question in the life of any ecosystem-building movement:How do we cultivate a pipeline of uniquely gifted, missionally brave, and spiritually aligned leaders—aka “unicorns”—to step into under-resourced communities?From college campuses to early retiree circles, from missional internships to accidental recruiting, the conversation wrestles with the tension between praying for laborers and practically finding them. What happens when the pipeline dries up in hard places like Alton, Aliquippa, and Suitcase City? What kind of people are drawn to apostolic work—and what kind of formation do they need?They also reflect on:The cost and complexity of relocating talent into the marginsWhy apostolic fervor isn’t for the masses (but is needed for the mission)The stages of church as family, army, and cityThe wisdom of monastic models for bringing people closerAnd the danger of moving too fast (or talking too soon) before things are readyA few raw and real stories—including a heartbreaking one from Jon at the bike shop—remind us what’s at stake and why we must build movements with longevity and deep formation in mind.

In this episode, the team dives deep into one of the more nuanced and often overlooked ideas in the book—anonymity. What does it mean to “not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing”? Why did Jesus warn against broadcasting our good works—and how does this relate to the current culture of self-promotion, brand-building, and nonprofit storytelling?We explore the tension between being visible in the world and avoiding self-glorification, drawing from Scripture, lived experience, and practical wisdom. From discussions about spiritual posture to nonprofit fundraising, entrepreneurial restraint to kingdom strategy, this episode unpacks why anonymity might just be one of the most important and freeing principles in the ecosystem life.Topics Covered:The freedom of not having to promote yourselfJesus’ teachings on secrecy and spiritual intentionThe tension between “let your light shine” and “do it in secret”Why we might be getting in our own way with branding, storytelling, and constant updatesThe iceberg metaphor: putting our good works beneath the surfaceStrategic silence and the "Messianic secret"How identity, audience, and pressure shape our decisionsWhen sharing the story is helpful—and when it becomes performanceNonprofit realities, fundraising nuances, and ethical storytellingLearning from John Perkins, Bonhoeffer, and the axiom: “Let it be self-evident”

On the very first day of 2025, we sat down with our longtime friend and Brave Cities team member, Joel Repic, who live and works in Aliquippa, PA. Joel shares stories and reflections from life alongside the Community of Celebration, a Benedictine-inspired order that’s been living, praying, and practicing radical discipleship together since the 1980s.We explore the core values that shape intentional Christian community—prayer, shared life, commitment to place, and the challenge of navigating conflict without losing hope. From common purses to shotgun rhythms on New Year’s Eve, this episode weaves together the sacred and the mundane.As we reflect on our own journeys of community in places like Alton, Birmingham, and Tampa, we talk about what sustains us when life together gets hard. What does faithfulness look like when it doesn’t feel fruitful? How do we grow into shared rhythms without copying someone else's rule of life? And what does it mean to experiment with kingdom living in the long shadow of empire?🌿 Key Themes:Intentional community & the cost of staying togetherBenedictine spirituality and monastic influenceDeveloping covenant life over timeThe difference between expectation and agreementNavigating conflict and staying rooted in graceThe spiritual disciplines that sustain radical lifeThe interplay of place, prayer, and prophetic witnessGenerational legacy and what we hope remains when we’re 70+📚 Mentions & Resources:The Community of Celebration (Aliquippa, PA)The Rule of St. BenedictThe Book of Common PrayerCatholic Worker MovementDietrich Bonhoeffer, Life TogetherDorothy Day & Houses of HospitalityFestivus (“airing of grievances” 😂)The Matrix & the seduction of comfort

🎙️ Episode SummaryIn this episode, we sit down with Jesse Cruikshank—neuroscientist, author, missional strategist, and former roller derby player (yes, really!)—to dive deep into the brain science of discipleship. We unpack how our understanding of spiritual formation has been shaped more by the Enlightenment than by Scripture, and how the way we teach and learn often inoculates us against transformation rather than leading us into it.This conversation is a must-listen for anyone wrestling with how the church should teach, disciple, and form people into the way of Jesus. Spoiler: it's not through 40-minute sermons and passive listening.📌 Key Themes & Topics:The difference between semantic memory (facts) and autobiographical memory (identity & transformation)Why most sermons and passive teaching methods don't lead to real changeHow risk, experience, and relational learning create real discipleshipThe Enlightenment’s impact on the church and why we prioritize information over formationWhy status and power play such a major role in how we think about church leadershipHow to rethink church gatherings to actually form people spirituallyWhy shame can only be healed in community and not in your prayer closetThe importance of identity formation in discipleship💡 Notable Quotes:🧠 "Your brain doesn’t care about truth—it cares about identity. If we were designed to seek truth, it wouldn’t hurt to change our minds."📖 "The way we teach in church actually inoculates people against transformation. They think they know something just because they heard it."⛪ "We’ve been handed a model of church from the Enlightenment that prioritizes intellect, status, and control—none of which actually transform people into Christlikeness."👨‍👩‍👧‍👦 "How do you deep-teach your children? Do you sit them down for a 40-minute monologue? No. You teach them in the rhythms of everyday life. Why do we think church should be different?"

In this episode, we reflect on a recent gathering of denominational leaders where we shared our vision for Brave Cities and the idea of a Kingdom ecosystem. We discuss the challenges of church planting models that focus primarily on gathering people rather than transforming communities, and we wrestle with what it truly means to live out the kingdom of God.Key Themes & Topics:Reflections on presenting Brave Cities at a denominational gatheringThe tension between traditional church models and a Kingdom ecosystemThe role of the poor in shaping a true kingdom expressionThe difference between preaching the king vs. demonstrating the kingdomHow church planting strategies often prioritize wealthier areas over marginalized communitiesWhy leading with the kingdom may be the most transformative approachWrestling with the reality that many church innovations are just new ways to gather people, rather than new ways to be the church"We’re not critiquing just to be contrarian. We’re asking—how do we actually help the poor? How do we build cities of refuge for the hurting?"

In this episode the team is talking through challenges and opportunities that they might anticipate as they prepare for a trip to speak with a large group of denominational leadership about brave cities

We all wanted this convo to last forever! We are sure you will feel similarly.

After years without any formal gathering, Hugh and Jon spend a little time talking through it as the Alton community is beginning to think about setting this table.

This weeks episode is a fun one! The crew is reflecting on questions around patrons and apostolic funding. We would love to hear your take-aways from the episode

We have Lindsey back to dig into the concept and value of hard work in kingdom life.

We are often asked about the way a Brave Cities style life impacts our families. In this episode we are joined by Taylor's wife Lindsey to finally dig into it.

This is an episode the Hugh and Taylor did with Exponential's Church Next Podcast during a series of the Future of Multiplication. We really enjoyed the conversation and are excited to share the episode with you here.

We finally got some time set aside to sit down with Brian Sanders to discuss some of his recent work and thinking about collaboration and unity in the Body of Christ.

In this episode Hugh and Taylor let listeners in on some very challenging questions that their community has been wrestling with recently. It's a really great look into challenges builders face, impossible decisions that communities must make, and the risk implied in each step of faith.

Here is a link to the scene referenced in this episode

In this episode the team shares and reflects on a TED talk by Dan Barber that might be the ideal parable for the vision of Brave Cities.

We're back!!! Welcome to Season Two of Grey Pages! In this episode we were joined by Lance Ford to wrestle with the question of what the spirit of God might be saying to the Church today. We had a great time reflecting on and exploring the question together and we hope you enjoy it as much as we did.

We just recorded this as part of season 2 but decided to go ahead and release it right away since it is fresh on everyone's minds. We plan to start releasing season 2 episode at the beginning of November!

Hugh & Taylor had the opportunity to share at the 2024 Microchurches Conference and we wanted to share the session with you here! enjoy

We have come to the end of season one! In this episode we reflect a bit on the journey of both recording these convos as well as writing the manuscript for the Brave Cities book. We share some plans we have about further developing these conversations over the break. While we may share some little clips and bonus episodes over the summer, we will also be on a bit of a break from the current rhythm of releasing episodes! We hope you have enjoyed this journey with us and we look forward to the conversations to come in season 2!

In this episode Taylor and Hugh dig into the story and work of ReWire with JD Ward. ReWire is an incredible missionary order that is working with practitioners that are establishing kingdom outposts in strategic places throughout the word. They are helping these missional leaders learn rhythms and disciplines that will help them stay in a contemplative posture as they engage in the work. ReWire has also been the title sponsor of season one of Grey Pages and we are so grateful for their partnership as well as their friendship. Please enjoy this conversation with JD

This conversation with Dezi and Neil was recorded in person while together in Kansas City for a gathering of microchurch networks. We stole away into a side room and had an incredible conversation about so many things, among which were topics like the prophetic and apostolic combo, the principles we work to embody, and the reframing of personal well-being for the missionary.

This episode is a very candid conversation with Alan Hirsch. Be warned, it navigates some sad waters at times. We dig into many topics that are so often avoided like death, failure, famine, and the future. Alans insights and encouragements were so good for each of us to hear and we hope you find this conversation as valuable as we did.

This is a follow up to our previous conversation on episode 22 'Building in Babylon.' This time we have Joel Repic with us sharing a bit about a recent encounter with the powers. There are a few moments in this episode that the picture and sound drops off as we edited out a few mentions of the actual location where Joel was in an effort to be cautious about the important work going on there.

This weeks episode is a deep dive into an attempt to address that question that we keep hearing, "What's with all this talk about Babylon?"

Rodney Fickas returns to join us for a discussion on the deep and sacred value of work itself. In the conversation they spent some time remembering the words of Dorothy Sayers, in particular her essay 'Why Work' Here is an audio version that Jon recorded on his other podcast called The Work Ethic you can find the text here

After their time together in Orlando for the Exponential conference, the crew came back together to reflect on the role of prophetic practitioners in todays gatherings such as the conference. It's fascinating to hear Taylor and Hugh share about their experience talking about Brave Cities with the gathering of church planters they got to connect with.

Enjoy this conversation with Lance Ford

This is a really fun conversation about the call go to hell.

We invited Fitch to join us as we wrestle with the conviction that the gospel is not just Jesus. We are so grateful for this brothers life, work, and mind. We hope this conversation opens you up to a broader, deeper, more profound sense of just how immeasurably great the good news of the kingdom is.

This brother is a builder! Hugh came back from a visit to Lance's ecosystem and told the team that we had to get him on and hear his story. In this episode we did just that. Lance has built so much and we are so excited to be able to share this conversation with you here.

This is a kind of part 2 of the convo we began about the poor in episode 14

In this this episode Taylor and Jon wrestle with questions of God's heart from the poor and the place of the poor in our communities and in the kingdom itself. Taylor kinda takes the posture of interviewer in an effort to get Jon riffing on some of these ideas. Next weeks episode is will be a continuations of this conversation with Hugh and Joel. You can consider this episode a part 1.

This is an incredible conversation with Rodney Fickas of Soulcraft. It's a great introduction to Rodney, his journey from traditional ministy/church-planting to a wood shop in Ferguson, and the beautiful table that is Soulcraft, where they make things good. We hope his story inspires you as much as it has us!