Lessons from the Deep

Host Jim Cooper elucidates the central theme of his book, "Drowning in Drama," wherein he explores the intricacies of human relationships through the lens of the drama triangle—a psychological model that delineates the roles of victim, rescuer, and persecutor. Throughout the episode, Jim delves into the profound personal experiences that prompted him to undertake this literary endeavor, particularly the institutional betrayal faced by his wife and the subsequent tumultuous emotional journey. He articulates the significance of reconciling one's pain and the necessity of surrendering control as a pathway toward healing. Moreover, he engages in a thoughtful examination of the biblical narrative of Jonah, which serves as a poignant case study for understanding these relational dynamics. Jim encourages listeners to read scripture with renewed clarity, fostering a deeper engagement with the complexities of faith and interpersonal relationships.LinksCoopWritesDrowning in Drama: Jonah and the Drama Triangle: Cooper Jr., Jim, Faro, Ingrid: 9798385244348: Amazon.com: Books

The discussion between Jim Cooper and Heidi Cooper delves into the profound concept of "The Vulnerable Creator," wherein individuals who have experienced trauma and victimhood can transform their narratives into powerful acts of creation. At the heart of this dialogue is the assertion that embracing vulnerability allows one to reclaim agency and foster healing, thereby enabling the emergence of a prophetic voice that challenges injustices within one's community. Heidi shares her personal journey, emphasizing the significance of community support and the necessity of honesty in one's relationship with God as pivotal elements in transcending victimhood. This engaging conversation elucidates the transformative power of vulnerability and invites listeners to reflect on their own experiences of pain and healing, ultimately encouraging them to step into the role of vulnerable creators in their own lives. By intertwining personal anecdotes with insightful reflections, this episode serves as both a source of inspiration and a call to action for those seeking to navigate their struggles with authenticity and grace.Heidi Cooper holds a Master of Arts in Pastoral Counseling with a focus on Addiction and Recovery. She is a certified Pastoral Sex Addiction Professional through IITAP and currently serves as a Recovery Specialist at Covenant Eyes. She is also an ordained minister, bringing together theological depth, clinical insight, and pastoral wisdom in rare and grounded ways.LinkScreen Accountability™ | Covenant EyesDrowning in Drama: Jonah and the Drama Triangle - Kindle edition by Cooper Jr., Jim, Faro, Ingrid. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

Power in relationships is a multifaceted concept that warrants comprehensive examination, as elucidated in the conversation between host Jim Cooper and guest Gino Curcuruto. The central theme of this episode revolves around the distinction between worldly power and godly power, with a particular emphasis on how these forms of power manifest in interpersonal dynamics. Gino Curcuruto, a theologian and pastor, offers profound insights into the ways in which power can be leveraged for mutual flourishing rather than coercion or domination. Throughout their dialogue, they explore the implications of power within the church and its divergence from political and corporate paradigms, ultimately advocating for a humility that invites vulnerability and genuine connection. This episode serves as a poignant reminder of the necessity for individuals to reflect upon their own use of power and the transformative potential inherent in relationships grounded in mutual respect and understanding.Gino Curcuruto is the pastor of The Table Philadelphia, a church made up of communities seeking to engage God’s presence in daily life while serving neighbors. The Table embodies an incarnational vision of discipleship rooted in shared tables, neighborhoods, and everyday rhythms. Before entering pastoral ministry, Gino spent 25 years as a chiropractor, shaping how he thinks about care, embodiment, and long-term presence. Today, his work spans several worlds. He teaches theology in a prison education program, coordinates Theology House at Northern Seminary, and co-owns Habitat Coffee Roasters, a venture grounded in neighborhood renewal. He is also pursuing a doctorate in contextual theology and recently co-authored Presence Based Witness (February 2025).LinksThe Table Philadelphia - HomePresence Based Witness: Six Steps to Power-full Witness in Christ's Kingdom - Kindle edition by Fitch, David E., Curcuruto, Gino. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.Drowning in Drama: Jonah and the Drama Triangle - Kindle edition by Cooper Jr., Jim, Faro, Ingrid. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

The discourse between host Jim Cooper and guest Dr. Ingrid Faro delves profoundly into the intricate themes of evil, intent, and the biblical narrative of Jonah. At the heart of the conversation lies the assertion that evil is not merely the absence of good but rather a distortion of the inherent goodness of creation, leading to chaos and conflict. Dr. Faro, a distinguished biblical scholar, elucidates her insights regarding the complexities of evil within the scriptural context, thereby enriching our understanding of its manifestation in human experience. Throughout the episode, they explore the profound implications of divine intent, particularly in relation to suffering and the human condition as illustrated through the story of Jonah. This enlightening discussion prompts us to reflect on the nature of evil and the divine response to it, ultimately encouraging a deeper engagement with our own experiences of pain and moral complexity.Ingrid Faro is a Professor of Old Testament and Director of the MA in Old Testament at Northern Seminary, and she also serves as founding faculty at the Scandinavian School of Theology in Sweden. She holds both an MDiv and a PhD in Theological Studies—with a concentration in Old Testament and Semitic Languages.LinksAmazon.com: Ingrid Faro: books, biography, latest updateBooks — Ingrid Faro, PhDDrowning in Drama: Jonah and the Drama Triangle - Kindle edition by Cooper Jr., Jim, Faro, Ingrid. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

The conversation with Pastor Andrew Williams delves into the multifaceted senses of Scripture, emphasizing the necessity of approaching biblical texts through various interpretive lenses. Williams articulates that Scripture has been crafted with multiple perspectives, which enables readers to grasp its profound meanings more fully. This dialogue highlights the importance of recognizing genres within the Bible and how each genre informs our understanding and interpretation. Furthermore, we explore the significance of viewing Scripture not merely through a historical lens but also through moral and spiritual dimensions, ultimately connecting these insights to the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. As we engage with the text, we are encouraged to appreciate the rich tapestry of interpretations that can deepen our spiritual journey and understanding of God's word.Andrew Williams is the author of several works on Christian spirituality and theology, including Reconstructing Prayer, Washed in the Spirit, and Boundless Love. He is also an accomplished poet. His collections—A Funeral in the Wild, Time in Shenandoah, and A Weathered Ship—explore themes of land, family, memory, fracture, and longing. His poems have appeared in literary journals such as Ink, Sweat & Tears, Black Bough Poetry, and tiny wren lit, among others.He also serves as Lead Pastor at Church on the Hill and is a St. Basil Fellow with the Center for Pastor Theologians. He also teaches theology as an adjunct professor at Bethel Seminary and Portland Seminary.LinksDrowning in Drama: Jonah and the Drama Triangle - Kindle edition by Cooper Jr., Jim, Faro, Ingrid. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.Reconstructing Prayer: Beyond Deconstructing Your Faith: Williams, Andrew Ray, Swoboda, A. J.: 9781666738247: Amazon.com: BooksWashed in the Spirit: Toward A Pentecostal Theology of Water Baptism: Williams, Andrew Ray: 9781953358059: Amazon.com: BooksBoundless Love: A Companion to Clark H. Pinnock's Theology: Williams, Andrew Ray, Castelo, Daniel: 9781725286528: Amazon.com: Books

The discussion centers around Karpman's Drama Triangle, a model that elucidates the dynamics of relational conflict through the roles of Victim, Rescuer, and Persecutor. Host Jim Cooper engages with guest BrianJames McMahon, who articulates how these roles manifest in our interactions, often driven by self-preservation rather than genuine connection. A salient point emerges: understanding these dynamics not only aids in recognizing our behaviors but also provides a pathway to healthier relational frameworks. McMahon emphasizes the importance of transitioning from the Drama Triangle to the Winner's Triangle, which fosters constructive engagement and empathy. The discussion delves into practical implications for individuals and communities, particularly within church contexts, challenging listeners to reflect on their relational roles and the impact of their choices on interpersonal dynamics.BrianJames McMahon is the founder of BrianJames Therapy and a licensed marriage and family therapist. His work focuses especially on pastors, therapists, and organizational leaders—people who often carry responsibility, visibility, and pressure—helping them find healing from pain, overcome barriers to connection, unlock potential, and grow into who they are becoming.LinkBrianJames McMahon, LMFT — BrianJames TherapyDrowning in Drama: Jonah and the Drama Triangle - Kindle edition by Cooper Jr., Jim, Faro, Ingrid. Religion & Spirituality Kindle eBooks @ Amazon.com.

Lessons from the Deep is a new podcast hosted by Jim Cooper Jr. The show features conversations with guests such as Dr. Ingrid Faro, Andrew Williams, Brianjames McMahon, and many more.You can subscribe to Lessons from the Deep on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen. New episodes release weekly, starting February 2nd.