Pioneering Paradox: A podcast for conflicted saints

Eschatology is a word I didn't know prior to this convo with Chad Ford. It deals with theology of end times and how that changes behavior . Chad makes a case that the Latter Day Saint theology dictates that we are co builders with God and we are not to just sit around and let the world collapse around us. How do we balance social ills with inner peace? What can the Latter Day Saints do with the call from President Oaks to "use the language and methods of peacemakers"? How do we help the next generation imagine a better future? These are all topics we discuss in this very important and timely episode. Thanks for listening.

In 2013 one fast and testimony meeting altered the course of our neighborhood. Four families started something we didn't realize would become a yearly tradition, but last week we completed our 14th annual neighborhood National Park Trip. today we have visited 17 parks. I invited Peggy Craney and Corinne Kelly to join me and Mel to talk about how it all began, how it can be replicated (we hope) what these trips have done for our families and most especially our kids. I am just naive enough to believe that nature with friends is just the thing that can heal our divide in our world right now. Thanks for listening.

One day Celestial Marriage (Polygamy) was considered the "Capstone" of our religion, and the next day anyone who continued the practice with a new marriage or even showed favor toward it were excommunicated. That stands still today. The church went from fighting for "the principle" to helping the US government root our fundamentalists in our midst. All the while we never full stopped polygamy, we simply deferred it to the next life. We discuss why in this episode. Also, in 2017 Melanie and Casey on a random chance ended up sleeping over at Warren Jeffs house for a weekend, you know the one that says "Pray and Obey" on the side of it! That one! In this episode tell Wil all about our experience and also the history or how Short Creek (Colorado City and Hildale) were founded and why.

The Book of Mormon presents an interesting paradox: it is often placed on a pedestal, almost like a trophy, as a symbol that we possess the truth, while at the same time it cautions against that very kind of attitude.I haven't read the Book of Mormon in ten years (Casey). I called Will and told him the other day that Donald Trump is almost making me believe in the Book of Mormon again for reasons I did not expect and likely you won't either. Melanie, Casey and Wil have a discussion about it.

MELANIE MCFARLAND of True Within You emotional wellness joins Wil Wood and Casey McFarland to have a discussion about how adults can model civility, hope and better communication for the next generation.

Seven years ago, a group in Cache Valley created FHE for ALL, a community that provides a safe place for LGBTQ Mormons to simply be themselves. In this conversation, Jenny Mathews shares her story of her father coming out when she was in high school, an experience that was very difficult at the time but has since become one of the greatest blessings in her life.Many people contribute to making FHE for ALL the welcoming and supportive space it is today. This discussion also explores how others might think about creating similar safe spaces in their own communities.We love Jenny and the entire FHE for ALL group, and we loved this conversation. We hope you do too! 🌈If you want to meet another member of this group go back and listen to our episode titled: Coffee hour with Blake

The paradox of Clark Gilbert is that he is both a preserver and a disruptor. He built his reputation on the logic of disruptive innovation arguing that institutions must be willing to dismantle parts of themselves to survive, yet his motivation has often been deeply conservative: to protect enduring values, faith communities, and long-term institutional purpose. He is willing to fire 40% of a newsroom or radically restructure an organization not out of iconoclasm, but out of stewardship. In Gilbert’s model, stability comes through change, and loyalty to a mission sometimes requires disloyalty to a model. That tension between conviction and adaptation, preservation and reinvention is the core of his leadership paradox.

In the fall of 2023, local leaders in the bay area were instructed by the Area presidency to no longer allow women sit on the stand during ward and stake conferences. While it is not something done in all wards or stakes it was something this area had done for nearly a decade to show respect and honor women leaders in their area. The sudden change was deeply hurtful and left a lot of members asking why? As a result  Amy Watkins Jensen started an instagram account titled Women on the Stand. Today it has nearly 15,000 followers. Although it was started by Amy, it has quickly become a place where members can post success stories and little changes and wins in the pursuit of greater equality in the church. We were so happy to interview Amy and we hope you feel inspired to be a part of making a difference after listening to this.

In this episode, we’re joined by the marvelous McArthur Krishna. McArthur has been on the front lines reminding Latter-day Saints that Heavenly Mother is not a side note to our story but rather essential and that without Her, we will always be out of balance. She has co-written 14 books, primarily focused on Heavenly Mother and women in the scriptures and she is heavily involved in the world of Latter Day Saint art.  In this conversation, we explore the importance of becoming sovereign. The paradox of being part of a very strong group identity while honoring one's own distinct voice can be a real challenge. Both are important and we discuss ways people can balance the two and that sometimes there can be costs when someone follows that very divine an individual call. We gained a lot from this conversation and hope you do too.That's Church March 7: https://www.zeffy.com/en-US/ticketing/becoming-sovereign-claiming-your-story-honoring-your-agency-and-building-the-beloved-communityMcArthur's Amazon Account: https://www.amazon.com/s?i=stripbooks&rh=p_27%3AMcArthur%2BKrishna&s=relevancerank&text=McArthur+Krishna&ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1

Melanie and Casey sit down with Blake Muir for what we are calling Coffee Hour with Blake. Blake asks the question "If there is Eternal Progression, could there be eternal digression?" Without diversity in heaven would we progress? We also discuss what heaven would be like without our LGBTQ members. Would that be heaven? Is there sin in thinking you are going to heaven while thinking others aren't?

Many people know Patrick Mason as a scholar of Mormon and Christian history but not everyone knows he graduated also with a Masters in International Peace Studies at Notre Dame.Peacemaking is a topic that comes with baggage. It is often mistaken for passivity and a manipulative tool to keep people ifrom rocking the boat. Patrick argues the exact opposite. Peacemaking is anything but passive. We only scratch the surface on this topic. It might warrant a part 2 but we will see.

We are joined by the articulate, intelligent, and courageous Valerie Hamaker of the Latter Day Struggles Podcast. As a therapist, Valerie has been a vital support to individuals and families navigating the complexities of faith in the 21st century. Through tireless effort, she has built an extraordinary network of resources—including therapy, workshops, and educational tools—designed to help those who feel like they’re struggling just to breathe as they grapple with the realities of a faith journey.In this episode, we explore the idea of the “myth of normal,” challenging the assumption that what is considered normal within church culture is always healthy or helpful. Valerie brings a rare combination of clinical insight and lived experience, helping us examine the unspoken beliefs and behaviors that are simply part of the air we breathe, and inviting us to ask whether they truly serve us.Listen to Latter Day Struggles interview with Casey: Part 1 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/375-when-god-refuses-to-be-church-correlated/id1612326898?i=1000732662668Part 2 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/377-when-ones-soul-has-the-audacity-to-grow-right/id1612326898?i=1000733703085

We loved our conversation with Orlando so much, we had to bring him back for a bonus episode. In this second part, Melanie McFarland (@truewithinyou) sits down with Orlando Tsosie to explore his Navajo spiritual tradition. Orlando shares stories of helping his mother, a medicine woman, and speaks about the gifts and experiences that shaped his path. He also touches on elements of the Diné Bahane' : the Navajo Creation Story and reflects on the similarities and differences between Navajo and Latter-day Saint worldviews.

Casey saw a UFO. So what does that mean? Melanie joins me and Wil to discuss how in Latter-day Saint theology, this phenomena bumps up against a quiet but persistent paradox: a God vast enough to organize “worlds without number,” yet a religious culture often lived out in small wards, narrow social expectations, and very local ways of thinking. The cosmic scope of the plan of salvation stretches across galaxies, intelligences, and eternities, while daily faith practice can feel bounded by committee meetings, cultural habits, and an unspoken pressure to keep the universe tidy and familiar. A UFO sighting becomes less about aliens and more about discomfort, what happens when the heavens feel too big, too strange, too alive for a worldview that prefers the comfort of the known? This episode explores that tension: how believers reconcile a radically expansive, cosmic God with the human impulse to shrink mystery down to something manageable, and what might be lost—or rediscovered—when we dare to think as big as our theology claims the universe really is.

From the earliest days of the Latter-day Saint movement, Native Americans have been part of our story—and, for better or worse, we have been part of theirs, especially in the American West. It’s not always an easy story to tell. It involves colonization, displacement, and at times even massacre. The full story may never be completely told, as it is often one-sided.But there are other stories—stories centered on individuals, not just groups or grand narratives. This is one of those stories.In this episode we interview Orlando Tsotsi, a Navajo and a Latter-day Saint, and how he came to find himself  and is still finding himself while embodying parts of both of those identities. Orlando speaks about his journey to faith, the wisdom passed down from his Native people, and how his worldview expanded after living with five Latter-day Saint families through the Indian Student Placement Program ran by the LDS church from 1947-2000. We didn’t feel like we even scratched the surface with Orlando and plan to have him on for more discussion in the future. We hope you enjoy this conversation. 

Welcome to Pioneering Paradox (@pioneeringparadox) , hosted by Wil Wood (@willywouldnt) and Casey McFarland (@caseymcfarlandphoto). Here, we explore the messy, meaningful, and often difficult conversations within the Latter-day Saint tradition. We believe paradox is not a problem to solve but a healthy way to hold the tension of complex issues. As Richard Rohr reminds us, “Paradox is the only language that can contain the whole.”This episode marks the beginning of season 2. We start this season off with a discussion with the mystifying Melanie McFarland (@TrueWithinYou) who has an emotional wellness practice and happens to be my wife. We dive into the chaotic and exhillerating world of the stage of faith Brian Mclaren calls “perplexity”. This stage can be destabilizing and also exciting but what do we do about raising kids and being a part of the larger world when we are in this stage? We don’t have all the answers but just some thoughts and perspective. Thanks for listening. 

Melanie and I discuss the idea that religion is a tool that should lead to transformation, to becoming a "new creature" or "born again" . The Covenant Path does this for many people but what about the billions of people who don't feel a connection to the Latter Day Saint path. Are there other ways that can lead to transformation, even within the same home? We also discuss parenting kids outside of the covenant path and how families can be strengthened when we respect and honor spiritual paths different than ours.

Lots of changes in the church. We got together to discuss! Garments, Pres. Oaks, women becoming prophets, assuming authority, and some of my reconciliation with Pres. Nelson. And a discussion about D. Todd Christopherson and his family embracing his brother Tom's partner. (Keep in mind we are aware of the recent issue with Wade Christopherson but recorded this prior to that).Stick around to the end for the discussion about doubting your hate!Wil invites me back to church :)

This episode with James and Lisa Clawson are serving as service mission leaders and are hoping to end the stigma against service mission experiences. We discuss the shifts that have happened, the stats that show transitioning to a service mission is most often a very positive experience. We also discuss including all the voices in ward council and when to speak up when something doesn’t feel right. We really enjoyed speaking with these two lovely humans.

I had to scratch this itch about how much Polygamy has shaped our family.

Today, we’re joined by the incredible and multitalented Melissa Mason. Wil and I had a hard time staying on task because there was so much we wanted to ask her, from her therapy practice, which includes Ketamine-Assisted Therapy and Sex Therapy, to her talents as a modern quilter and presenter, her commitment to social justice, her political science background from Notre Dame, and her current participation in the Living School. And, of course, we were eager just to hear her thoughtful perspectives on current affairs.In this episode, Melissa shares her story of growing up Catholic, losing her faith, joining the Latter-day Saints, and eventually re-embracing elements of her original tradition. We deeply appreciated her candor, intellect, and insight and we hope you will too.

Today, we’ve invited a close friend of mine who has been living in Guatemala for the last 14 years and during that time he and others became deeply involved in humanitarian work. He shares what he has learned—and unlearned—over the years to help us better understand how to address humanitarian issues in meaningful ways.Back in 2019, while our family was living in Guatemala and closely connected with Greg’s family, news broke that the Church was sitting on roughly $100 billion (and growing). Like many others, I found myself wondering, “Why aren’t we doing more with that money?” Yet as we’ll explore, addressing these questions is far more complex than simply throwing money at a problem.Also, We’ve mentioned before that we’ll be taking a group of 15–19 year olds down to Guatemala next February 25. We’ll touch more on that at the end of the episode, so if you’re interested in an experience that could be transformative for both youth and parents, be sure to stick around.

In this episode we’re joined by Dr. Julie de Azevedo Hanks—and honestly, it quickly became one of our favorite conversations. We laughed, we cried, and we learned a lot. A quick content note: we dive into sensitive topics, including how we handle claims of abuse in the church, because we deeply wanted to hear Julie’s perspective. With over 30 years of experience as a social worker, psychotherapist, and founder of Wasatch Family Therapy, Julie brings wisdom and compassion that gave us a lot to think about.We asked her how we can raise boys to grow into good men in the church, what young women should look for in healthy relationships, and how we can all create more space for people to be heard in our community. This was a meaningful, moving discussion—and we can’t wait to share it with you.

We are told to work out our salvation with the Lord. But what happens when that becomes so heavy it begins to rule almost everything you do? Kathryn Hilton Johnston is an active member, mother of two who has been diagnosed with scrupulosity, a form of Religious OCD.Scrupulosity often shows up more in highly religious environments, and because it overlaps with normal religious devotion, it can be underdiagnosed or mistaken for piety.While the topic of Scrupulisity has been more prevalent in main stream,  it is still something many people don’t understand or recognize. Kathryn articulates this struggle very well. We hope you get value from this conversation. 

 I'm joined by my wife, Melanie McFarland who owns a non-traditonal practice helping people overcome trauma, abuse and heal childhood wounds. She is somewhat of a mystic. When I married into Melanie's family, I married into a world of naturalists, herbalists and neighborhood healers. My more traditional and skeptical family upbring was challenged in ways I couldn’t have ever imagined.Early in our marriage, Melanie was diagnosed with Graves disease. The leading experts told her that her condition was incurable and she would need to kill her thyroid. I plead with her to listen. Against my wishes, she turned to naturopaths and eventually a naturopathic MD, and within six months of treatment her bloodwork normalized—and has stayed that way since. My eyes were opened that maybe traditional medicine doesn’t always have the answers. But is that always the case? In this episode we discuss how the early Mormon history of magic, visions, and mysticism are alive and well in the underbelly of our culture for better or for worse. We get into everything from treasure digging to why we think women in particular gravitate to more non-traditional healing modalities. As usual it’s a paradox. Thank you for listening. You can find Melanie on Instagram at @TrueWithinYou.

Jeff Lowe found himself where many men do—successful on the outside, surrounded by family and friends, but battling deep loneliness and depression. Hitting a breaking point led to a profound shift in his life. Now, he's building something different.Jeff is the host of the Bonded Brotherhood podcast—a space where men can gather, get honest, and find connection. It's a far cry from the typical "alpha male" blueprint.This episode isn’t just for men. If you have a son, a partner, or a friend who’s struggling, this conversation matters.Thanks for listening.

In this episode, we invited social media influencer and latter day saint Phil Cowley onto the show. In 2021 Phil was about to close the doors on his pharmacy when he was approached to do a social media clip for a local gym. Soon after he started his own social media called Phil’s my pharmacist which now has over 3 million followers across his platforms. We discuss faith, parenting, critical thinking and raising kids with disabilities. Thank you for listening.

In this episode, Wil and I explore the Buddhist teaching of Emptiness. Back in 2017, during a time when I was seriously considering leaving the Latter-day Saint community, I encountered Buddhist teacher and podcaster Noah Rasheta. Through a series of events, I had the privilege of joining Noah and eleven others from across the country in a six-month Buddhist intensive.The most challenging—and ultimately most rewarding—part of that experience was the ominously named teaching of Emptiness. It forced me to confront and question many of the stories I was telling myself and eventually became the foundation of a daily practice I still carry with me.Wil and I discuss how this concept has the potential to move us beyond the dualistic thinking that pervades our culture and touches nearly every aspect of our lives. We hope it brings insight or comfort to someone out there.Thank you for listening.

Welcome to Pioneering Paradox, a podcast for Latter-day Saints navigating inner conflict and complexity. As Richard Rohr once said, “Paradox is the only language that can contain the whole.” In this space, we aim to embrace both light and shadow—because holding the tension between them is often the closest we come to the truth.In this episode we invited the lovely Lauren Wood to join us for a discussion about the paradox of being a part of a community, specifically the Latter Day Saint Community. Lauren discusses how the church has been a place she finds meaningful spiritual nourishment while also expressing she can’t fully enjoy it as long as there are people feeling left out. We discuss finding that balance. I am hoping this is only part one of a two part series on community because Lauren brings some heart to this topic and we still have so much more to say about this. Thanks for listening. 

On this episode we were thrilled to interview my daughter, Sami McFarland and talk about some of the struggles she had choosing to go on a mission with parents who were not active, and also coming home and beginning to process some of her own thoughts about certain tenants of our faith. Her story is unique but in some ways a microcosm of some of the things our young people are struggling with today. If you are a parent with struggling kids or if you are a parent who is not longer attending but have active kids, this is a great episode for you. 

Today, we’re diving into a topic that’s difficult for many: Patriarchy. For me, it became deeply personal when, in 2018, it nearly cost me my marriage to my love, Melanie. We’ve since walked through that pain, found healing, and emerged stronger. In this episode, Melanie joins me to explore how the system of patriarchy created a deep wound in our relationship—and how facing it together became a path to transformation.

In this episode, I interview Dr. Benjamin Park (My cohost Wil Wood was out of town) , an associate professor at Sam Houston State University. Together, we explore the question: Why do we think the way we do? Why are my parents so deeply partisan? For example, why did the Church become so closely aligned with the Republican Party, when Utah was a swing state for much of the early 20th century? We also examine when and how the Relief Society began to lose some of its autonomy, eventually being reduced to what some have called a “handmaiden to the priesthood.”All of this is viewed through the historical lens of a powerful figure in the First Presidency: J. Reuben Clark. Dr. Park argues that Clark may be the most influential architect of both modern Mormonism and Mormon conservatism over the past century. If you're not already following Dr. Benjamin Park, I highly recommend that you do. He provides essential context for many of the issues modern Saints are wrestling with today. You can find him on YouTube under Professor Benjamin Park.And while you're at it, consider picking up a copy of his book American Zion—and for extra credit, buy it locally at Benchmark Books in Salt Lake City.Thanks for listening.

In an attempt to give some back story to listeners about who we are as hosts, Wil and I took turns interviewing each other. I interviewed Wil in the episode title Meet Wil Wood, Go back and give that a listen. This episode Wil interviews Casey. Thanks for listening. 

Welcome to Pioneering Paradox, a podcast for conflicted Latter Day Saints. In the current  polarized climate we find ourselves in, we thought we would interview two people who are working on bringing people together through similarities rather than differences. "That's Church" is a podcast hosted by sisters Emilie Call and Ashlie Sanders, who come together to explore the diverse tapestry of faith within their community. Inspired by their grandparents' mixed-faith marriage and their grandmother's belief that "there is good in all religions," they aim to build bridges between various religious communities by interviewing individuals who lead or attend different congregations. Through these conversations, Emilie and Ashlie delve into how their friends and neighbors experience spirituality and define what church means to them, embracing ideas and beliefs beyond their own LDS backgrounds. Please welcome Emile and Ashlie

An interview about one man's journey to Mecca three times. I recorded this during covid with a travel podcast in mind. I went to publish it when I discovered he was being indicted on federal charges for Covid Relief fraud in the sum total of $300k Bummer

Now that we have recorded a few episodes we realized many of you don’t know who we are so in this episode I interviewed my co-host and active member, Wil Wood. Wil lives with his wife Lauren and three children in Cache Valley, Utah. Together they own a very popular kitchen appliance store called Love to Cook. Located in downtown Logan it has become a cultural gathering place for cooking classes, book clubs and bridge building and Wil and Lauren are at the center of it all. Wil is an avid outdoorsman and finds much of his spiritual nourishment in the local mountains. He is a poet and writer and has contributed to local magazines. He is the author of the book “And it Was Beautiful” 

In a 2017 study, researchers Benjamin Knoll and Jana Riess asked members who had left the faith, ‘How old were you when you stopped identifying as a member of the LDS Church?’ The average answer? Twenty-one—the legal drinking age.Currently, in the U.S., about 62% of adults drink alcohol. Many do so responsibly, but according to Pew Research, over 10% of Americans age 12 and up struggle with alcohol use disorder.The reality is, many of our kids will step into a world where drinking is not just common—it’s often expected. So how do we talk about that without sounding churchy?Today, we’re bringing in a guest Jay Hymas from outside the church to share a different perspective and help us open up a real, informed conversation about alcohol and a few other substances—with their risks and realities, and how we can keep those conversations going, with love and honesty.”**

In this episode, I invited Natalie Curtis (former owner of Holy Threads, and former Seminary Teacher) for a younger generation perspective on change and about how the church is aligning more and more with mainstream Christianity including the new invitation to join other denominations to celebrate the season of Easter. We talk about how change is good but can also be confusing and hurtful. 

In this episode, Wil and I discuss the importance of being true to oneself while still being a part of a community. We discuss how communities can either squash an individual or help and individual thrive depending on a variety of factors. We also breech the topic of being ones own self within a marriage. We hope this helps someone in someway.

In this episode we discuss Richard Rohr's concept of the Cosmic Egg from a Latter Day Saint perspective, which is a model that encompasses My story, Our story, Other stories, and THE story. We discuss the Latter Day Saint story from the perspective of an active member, a member who no longer attends and some who is all over the place.

In this episode, we’re joined by Mormon history scholar Patrick Mason to explore the complexity of the controversial figure, Brigham Young. In a time when polarization divides us, we seek to thoughtfully address a question recently posed by my daughter: “Is there anything good about Brigham Young?”We delve into topics such as slavery, racism, polygamy, and the tensions between Mormons and Native Americans. While we can’t cover all the nuances of these complex issues in a single hour, we hope this conversation offers a thoughtful perspective on Brigham Young's legacy and the challenges of reconciling both the positive and negative aspects of history.

Join Casey McFarland and his wife Melanie as they analyze the life of Joseph F. Smith with a compassionate lens to better understand the mind of the modern day Mormon.