Saved by the City

The evangelicals were right about yoga (kind of). Meditation, detox cleanses, sound baths, plant-based medicine ... these things were not invented by Gwyneth Paltrow. They did not appear in Brooklyn out of thin air. Many (even most?) of our favorite wellness practices have deep roots in religious traditions. What are we missing when we strip the religion from the ritual? On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore the well-trod path from deconstruction to wellness and why so many exvangelicals are drawn to these more physical disciplines that often originate in eastern or Indigenous traditions. But what is the line between appropriation and appreciation? Religion scholar Liz Bucar joins us to talk about the dangers and missed opportunities that come from separating these practices from their spiritual roots. Plus, Richa Karmarkar on the Hindu beliefs that shaped yoga — and why she thinks yoga can make you a better Christian. GUESTS: Richa Karmarkar is a national reporter covering Hinduism for Religion News Service. Liz Bucar is a religious ethicist and professor of religion at Northeastern University. She is the author of numerous books on religion, including her newest: “Beyond Wellness: How Restoring the Religious Roots of Spiritual Practices Can Heal Us.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Brains Behind the Trump Era Vice President J. D. Vance recently criticized Pope Leo online over his criticism of the war in Iran. It was a bold move for a Catholic convert, but perhaps not surprising, given the larger ideological commitments that have shaped Vance and his milieu. In a new book, Furious Minds: The Making of the MAGA New Right, scholar Laura K. Field tracks the intellectual leaders - scholars, policy wonks, think tankers - who have fueled Trump's political ascendancy. Ranging from Catholic commentator Sohrab Ohmari to former Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban to Internet personality Bronze Age Pervert, Field says they don't care so much about Trump as they do about fighting liberal democracy and replacing it with economic nationalism, anti-immigration policies, and America First foreign policy.Field joined Katelyn and Roxy for a fascinating conversation about who these men are, what they want, and how they could shape American democracy far beyond the Trump era.GUEST: Laura K. Field is a political theorist as well as a Scholar in Residence at American University, a Senior Advisor for the Illiberalism Studies Program at George Washington University, and a nonresident fellow with the Brookings Institution. She's the author of Furious Minds: The Making of the MAGA New Right. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Don't worry, ChatGPT told us to just trust the robots...In a shockingly short period of time, AI has gone from tech novelty to a part of our everyday lives. More industries are incorporating AI into daily workflow so that employees have more time for creative work - at least in theory. Roxy's and Katelyn's respective professions (journalism and book publishing) are still figuring out the ethical boundaries around AI. Meanwhile, we've all seen the dark side of these tools: deep fakes, chatbots encouraging users to harm themselves, and platforms overrun with AI slop. Do these tools portend a bright new age or civilizational collapse? We hash it out, with minimal help from the robots and a lot more help from a leader of a D.C. think tank helping to create policies that keep these powerful tools in their place.GUEST: Meredith Potter is executive director of the American Security Fund and the American Security Foundation, the latter of which works to ensure artificial intelligence (AI) is understandable, controllable, responsible, ethical, and human-centered. She is a Term Member of the Council on Foreign Relations and a double graduate of Yale University (BA, MA). Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A special crossover from our friends at Complexified for you this week! Tim Schrader Rodriguez spent eight years trying to "pray out the gay". He modulated his voice. He stopped listening to music with female lead singers. He sat weekly with a therapist who watched him come apart — and said nothing. Last week, the Supreme Court ruled 8–1 that therapists have a First Amendment right to pursue conversion therapy with their patients, upending a Colorado ban on the practice. This isn't history, nor is it a Colorado-only case. Bans that advocates spent years winning in state after state will unravel. Amanda Henderson talks with Tim this week about what eight years inside that world actually felt like — and what it means that the one protected space survivors thought they still had is now gone. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What if Jesus really meant what he said? Like, including all that love your enemy stuff. The better question maybe is what would happen if Jesus's followers believed he really meant what he said — and acted on it? It could change society and, according to Bart Ehrman, it already has. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with Ehrman — a New Testament scholar, agnostic atheist and somewhat unlikely defender of Jesus' most radical teachings — about how Jesus' command to care for people on the periphery shaped the moral "common sense" of the Western world. From public hospitals to disaster relief to orphanages, much of our social safety net can be traced back to Christian invention, he argues. It's a particularly urgent conversation at a time when Christianity is claimed in the name of everything from war to mass deportations to repealing women's right to vote. GUEST: Bart D. Ehrman is a distinguished professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the author of numerous books on the New Testament and early Christianity, including his latest "Love Thy Stranger: How the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Bro, do you even know your facial thirds? In an era of overexposure, perhaps looksmaxxing was inevitable. Clavicular, the face of this buzzy new internet phenomenon, tells us an uncomfortable truth we probably already knew: physical attractiveness gets you places. And, in true manosphere fashion, he is taking that to its transgressive extreme — steroid use, appetite suppressants, bone smashing, jaw surgeries, an incalculable amount of supplements and an obsessive fixation on achieving the perfect body ratios. But to what end?  On this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy examine the looksmaxxers' zealous pursuit of physical "ascension" and its guiding ethos of self-optimization at seemingly all costs. We are joined by RNS national reporter Fiona Murphy to discuss the "inverted asceticism" of the looksmaxxing community and its connections to the broader manosphere. We also get into the other manosphere development of late: Louis Theroux's new documentary, which follows several streamers and podcast hosts displaying a range of bad behaviors in pursuit of clicks. And we ask: what role is religion playing in all this male meaning-making? GUEST: Fiona Murphy is a New York-based multimedia journalist and national reporter at Religion News Service. Murphy covers local stories as well as national trends, with a focus on how faith intersects with digital life, identity and community. When it comes to the manosphere, she has written on Looksmaxxing, Catholicism and the new discipline of the body, and Nick Fuentes and the Groyper challenge to Catholicism. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The Noah's Ark story should come with a content warning. The Beginner's Bible. The Precious Moments Bible. The Jesus Storybook Bible. Children's Bibles remain an incredibly popular way for parents to teach their kids the faith. Roxy and Katelyn both remember the Bible stories that left a deep impression on them (a female spy! Fake arm hair!). But some of those stories can be confusing or downright scary. And when taught within a legalistic framework, they can turn faith into an obedience training program rather than a relationship with a gracious parent. That's why our guest on this episode, Meredith Miller, is equipping parents to teach the faith from a posture of curiosity and connection. Miller is a pastor and author of "Wonder: 52 Conversations to Help Kids Fall in Love with Scripture." She previously served as curriculum director for the children's ministry at Willow Creek Community Church. She explains why the Noah's Ark story should not be taught to kids ... and walks us through how she teaches children about the cross in developmentally appropriate ways. Plus: We break down the top scariest Bible stories for kids. Guest:  Meredith Miller is co-pastor of Pamona Valley Church and author of "Wonder: 52 Conversations to Help Kids Fall in Love with Scripture" and Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From. She writes at the Kids + Faith substack. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Every generation gets its revival story. In 1971, Time Magazine ran "The Jesus Revolution." In 1998, the New York Times wondered if evangelicals were "on the threshold of a huge spiritual revival." And in 2025, headlines screamed that Gen Z was flocking back to church, that young men were leading a religious resurgence, that Charlie Kirk's death had sparked mass conversions. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy ask: Is any of it actually true? Spoiler alert: not really. We're joined by Ryan Burge, political scientist and religion data aficionado, who brings receipts. Turns out Gen Z is the least religious generation in American history. There's no male revival — just a female exodus. And, according to Burge, we're not so much seeing a conservative surge as a hollowing out of moderates as churches polarize along political lines. But anecdotes remain and there does seem to be something going on in Christian America — even if we wouldn't call it a revival. Guest: Ryan Burge is professor of practice at the John C. Danforth Center on Religion and Politics at Washington University in St. Louis. He writes at his substack "Graphs About Religion" and is the author of half a dozen books on religion and politics in the U.S., including his most recent "The Vanishing Church: How the Hollowing Out of Moderate Congregations Is Hurting Democracy, Faith, and Us (Why the Culture Wars Led to Polarization and What We Can Do About It)." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Roxy & Katelyn are coming in hot with a deep dive into how the MAGA movement may be losing women. The Justice Department's seemingly reticent release of the Epstein files has led some prominent figures such as Marjorie Taylor Greene to disavow her ties to President Donald Trump, as many women's cries for justice for survivors grow louder. The MAHA ("Make America Healthy Again") base, led by influencers like Alex Clark, feel betrayed by the administration for letting more toxins such as Roundup to be produced on American soil. And Trump's women supporters find themselves part of a wide-reaching coalition that includes men like pastor Douglas Wilson, who has wondered aloud whether women should have the right to vote at all. It's a wild political and cultural moment, one Katelyn and Roxy are eager to tackle this season. Chapters 0:00 — Intro / 2026 check-in 1:41 — News quiz 8:16 — The Epstein files 18:20 — MAHA moms and the glyphosate betrayal 24:12 — Doug Wilson and the war for women 32:17 — Outro Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A Saved By The City Crossover Event! We're back! ALMOST. We recently joined another RNS podcast to look at how Christian womanhood has changed—and not in the ways we could have expected. In this episode of Complexified, host Amanda Henderson talks with us about the shift from 1990s purity culture to today’s trad wives, MAGA moms, and warnings against “toxic empathy.” The three of us unpack how pandemic burnout, influencer culture, and widening political gender gaps reshaped the ideal Christian woman — and why empathy itself has become a flashpoint. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

A Special Episode from The State of Belief! We’re sharing a special episode from The State of Belief — a wide-ranging conversation with Religion News Service reporters Jack Jenkins and Adelle M. Banks on the faith angles you don’t hear in the standard year-end news wrap. From immigration and church-state battles to DEI backlash, workplace shocks, and the shock of an American pope, they trace what 2025 revealed about power, justice, and public trust — and what questions we should be asking as 2026 approaches. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Can we talk about the beard hair in the sink? Getting engaged is exciting! But saying goodbye to singleness is not so straightforward — especially when you've spent years defending and celebrating the single life. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy admit letting go of being single felt more complicated than they expected. Sure, you have someone else to eat with ... but you also have to figure out who is getting groceries. You gain a life partner ... but you lose a lot of alone time. Did we make an idol out of singleness? Maybe. But also our joy in that identity felt hard-won and we were proud of the lives we'd carved out on our own.  But, hey, it's the end of a season (literally, it's our last episode of 2025!) and it's time to let go. Katelyn is getting married and moving in with a man and we are here for it. We talk all the logistics — and also the profound shifts that are bound to come when you merge your life with another person's. Plus: a quiz to test just how chill Katelyn really is about cohabitation (spoiler: not very), some marriage advice from Roxy, and why it's OK to grieve a good season of life even when you're genuinely excited about what's next. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

There's even an ICE Nativity. Baby Jesus in zip ties. Mary and Joseph in gas masks. Roman centurions wearing ICE vests. This December, nativity scenes are getting political. Lake Street Church in Evanston, Illinois sparked national attention with their ICE-themed nativity. Sean Hannity called it "woke" and a "war on Christmas." The Daily Show covered it. But it's just one example of clergy around the country participating in immigration activism — getting arrested outside detention centers, accompanying people to immigration hearings, taking food and the Eucharist to migrants too afraid to leave their homes.  On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with one clergy person, Michael Woolf, who has long been involved in immigrant activism and who was recently arrested outside an ICE detention center near Chicago. His church was responsible for the aforementioned provocative nativity and he believes clergy should be willing to put their bodies on the line in this moment. We are also joined by RNS reporter Jack Jenkins, who has been reporting on clergy efforts to resist ICE around the country.   GUESTS: The Rev. Michael Woolf is a senior minister of Lake Street Church of Evanston, Illinois, and the author of “Sanctuary and Subjectivity: Thinking Theologically About Whiteness and Sanctuary Movements.” He also has an upcoming book, "Confronting Islamophobia in the Church: Liturgical Tools for Justice," co-written with his wife, Ana Piela. Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for Religion News Service and has covered immigration issues and progressive clergy for a decade at least, including in his book on the religious left: "American Prophets: The Religious Roots of Progressive Politics and the Ongoing Fight for the Soul of the Country." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

They’re stylish, savvy, with podcasts, book deals, and massive Instagram followings. And they’re calling women back to the kitchen. A new wave of conservative Christian women, many balancing high-powered platforms and hard-charging careers with old-fashioned family values, are gaining influence by promoting traditional gender roles, homemaking aesthetics, and “biblical womanhood.” But beneath the sourdough and matching family outfits is a politically resonant ideology that’s shaping national conversations around gender, faith, and power. On this LIVE Saved By the City episode, recorded in Austin at the Texas Tribune Festival, Katelyn and Roxy host a lively panel to look at what’s behind the rise of these “tradwife” voices, what their popularity says about the cultural moment and why women are leading the charge to rewrite women’s roles. GUESTS: Emma Goldberg is a reporter for The New York Times, covering cultural, societal and economic change. Her articles “‘Less Burnout, More Babies’: How Conservatives Are Winning Young Women”  and "The Moms of ‘Momcon’ Are Stressed, but Ready to Party" are essential reading on this topic. Christine Emba is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a contributing writer for the New York Times, and author of the book Rethinking Sex. Lauren Southern is a former political activist. Her new memoir "This Is Not Real Life" chronicles her experience as an online conservative influencer and how trying to be a tradwife nearly destroyed her. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Exploring the mystical, the skeptical, and the spiritually surprising with Ross Douthat. What’s your woo level? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy run through their most mystical instincts—angels, ghosts, manifesting, energies, astrology—and ask whether modern Christians have grown a little too allergic to spiritual experience. Then New York Times columnist and UFO enthusiast Ross Douthat joins to talk about the persistence of the supernatural, why he thinks religion is still the most rational bet, and the dangers of patchwork spirituality. A funny, curious, and unexpectedly grounding conversation about what might be lurking just beyond the empirical. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Let's call it 'passion fatigue'... In the days of the early 'aughts, as Millennials began embarking into the workplace, companies noticed these young employees wanted a mission — wanted to feel connected to the work they were doing, even inspired by it. No longer was a paycheck enough, these bright-eyed twentysomethings wanted purpose. And in Christian circles, this generational trend was sanctified and spiritualized. Careers became callings. Jobs became vocations. And all of it could and should be done for the glory of God and for the common good. Extra bonus points if your deepest passions met the world's deepest needs. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy examine this impulse to elevate paid work to sacred calling — how it has served us and how it has hurt us. We are joined by Karen Swallow Prior as we discuss all the different ways callings can present themselves in our lives. (That's right - callings, plural!). GUEST: Karen Swallow Prior is the 2025-26 Karlson Scholar at Bethel Seminary. She is a columnist for RNS and the author of several books, including her most recent: "You Have a Calling: Finding your Vocation in the True, Good, and Beautiful." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Is it the holy spirit or is it a ponytail facelift? What does it even mean anymore to age with grace in the era of deep plane facelifts and eyelid surgeries and celebrity procedures that have women looking 40 years younger? On this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy wrestle with tensions and fears about aging ... about why our faces just do not look like our faces in the mirror anymore. And we ask: Is "having some work done" becoming inevitable? Instagram and TikTok are full of posts on the dramatic changes these procedures can create — and they are no longer limited to celebrities. Social media is showing us just how accessible — and gosh darn effective — today's cosmetic procedures have become. But at what cost? Certainly at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars. But what else are we losing if we refuse to grow old?   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Beware the charismatic pastor? America has long had a love affair with celebrity — be that of the Hollywood variety or the political ilk. From superstar athletes to celebrity chefs, their woo is not wasted on us. And the history of American Christianity was shaped by men (and a few women) who possessed that irresistible gravitational pull. They held evangelistic revivals, founded denominations and even new religions, and inspired movements. They also sometimes amassed huge amounts of personal wealth, had scandalous affairs and led their followers to commit deadly acts. Charisma has been a powerful tool in the American church and on this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy talk to historian Molly Worthen about how that tool has been used for good and evil ... and how charismatic politicians have begun to fill the void as religion declines. Plus: we take a personal Rizz Quiz GUEST: Molly Worthen is a professor of history at the University of North Carolina, where she focuses on North American religious and intellectual history. She is the author most recently of Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The one where our BoOoOos take over ... We're at the height of spooky season, and what could be spookier than two dudes talking theology? Just kidding, Roxy and Katelyn love the two men who are taking over SBTC this week!John Schmidt, Roxy's husband, returns to talk preaching, Fleabag, and lady editors with Jack Brownfield, who is also an Episcopal priest as well as Katelyn's fiancé. John and Jack discuss their respective callings to pastoral ministry, expectations others may have for priests' wives,  and some relationship tips John and Roxy have learned in their first year-plus of marriage. Jack also recounts his and Katelyn's meet cute, and the boys get both sporty and nerdy by doing a play-by-play with their favorite dead theologians.Don't be scared, Katelyn and Roxy will be back ... after they're done taking over John's and Jack's pulpits.   GUESTS: The Rev. John Schmidt is the associate rector at Church of the Epiphany in Manhattan. He has broad experience leading teams and communities across difference, especially individuals experiencing food and housing insecurity, and those justice-impacted. He has a deep love of liturgy and people, especially when a community fashions a common life around practices and habits that lead to loving one another and their neighbors well. The Rev. Jack Brownfield is an associate rector at St Michael's of the Valley outside Pittsburgh. Jack is passionate about preaching and teaching the Good News of God’s free grace toward the world and listening to God’s Word as it is spoken to each of us, here and now. He enjoys connecting theology and history to our lives in the real world, so these subjects are not just shut up in books but  make a difference for how we love and trust God and live with one another. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When you're on fire for Jesus — and each other. It's a tale as old as time: young and zealous evangelical co-eds meet in college, fall head over heels, dream of a life in ministry together ... and also of having sex, something they can't do until they get married. So they do — they tie the knot, in front of friends and family and maybe over the concerns of their parents. God called them together, after all! What could go wrong?  As it turns out, plenty. Such was the case for our guest today, Jen Hatmaker, who married at 19 and for 26 years lived what seemed an enviable evangelical life. A pastor husband, five kids, a home renovation TV show, a thriving career as an author and women's ministry leader. And then it all fell apart. Katelyn and Roxy, who experienced a similar story, talk with Jen about the evangelical pressure to marry young, the surprising gifts of single life after divorce, and her ongoing spiritual awakening. GUEST: Jen Hatmaker is an author, speaker and podcaster with 15 books to her name, including five New York Times best sellers. She is most recently the author of "Awake: A Memoir."  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Are you there God? It's me, Mushrooms ... Katelyn and Roxy are what researchers would call "psychedelically naïve." As in, we've never gone on a hallucinogenic trip before. But we're not necessarily psychedelically negative -- we're fascinated by how many people are using psychedelics for spiritual purposes. So when a new study released this summer from Johns Hopkins and NYU on the effects of psilocybin — as in magic mushrooms — on clergy, we knew we had to do an episode on it. We're guided through this episode by RNS reporter Kathryn Post, who has been talking with the clergy participants of the study for years about their experiences. And, as she notes in her reporting, those experiences were overwhelmingly positive —  96% of the 24 participants retroactively rated one of their psilocybin experiences among the top five most spiritually significant of their lives. We're also joined by one of the clergy participants, Rabbi Zac Kamenetz, who in the years since the study has gone on to found his own organization to support "Jewish psychedelic explorers" around the world. GUESTS Kathryn Post is a Pittsburgh-based reporter for RNS covering topics such as Gen Z spirituality, pop culture and abuse in religious contexts. Zac Kamenetz is a rabbi, community educator, artist and aspiring psychedelic chaplain. He is the founder and CEO of Shefa, which works to create spaces for healing and self-discovery in community by integrating Jewish wisdom with psychedelic practices. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Who is really winning here? In the wake of Charlie Kirk's very gruesome and very public assassination on September 10, the debate over his legacy has played out in real time and online. The responses to his death revealing just how fractured we've become. Some called him a martyr, modern-day St. Paul. Others pointed to his history of racist and xenophobic rhetoric and wondered why Christians were valorizing someone who had said such hurtful things. Workers were fired for their social media posts. Jimmy Kimmel was suspended. Pastors faced backlash no matter what they said — or didn't say — from the pulpit. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy grapple with how to hold space for both mourning political violence and reckoning with Kirk's troubling legacy. We are joined by New Testament scholar Nijay Gupta, whose viral substack post, "If You Are Elevating Charlie Kirk, Consider Who You Are Crushing Underfoot," wrestled with what it means to remember controversial figures honestly — especially when half the church sees a saint and half sees a devil in disguise. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

If every generation of parents has their anxieties, the post-evangelical Millennial parent is perhaps most angsty about how to raise their kids as Christians — without all the baggage. Many parents our age — especially those who grew up evangelical — were raised in a time when Christian parenting books were ubiquitous and none more so than James Dobson's. Dobson, who died this summer, was the founder of Focus on the Family and the impact of his teachings on parenting — from discipline, to parental authority, to obedience, gender and sexuality — is hard to understate. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy examine Dobson's legacy and the broader Christian parenting empire he helped build. We're joined by author Marissa Franks Burt to discuss what made these teachings so appealing to anxious Christian parents and why so many adult children are now processing the harm. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Doug Wilson’s name is suddenly everywhere (and his voice too). The 72-year-old pastor from Moscow, Idaho has become the go-to theologian for Christian nationalism, offering what has been framed as a more moderate, more intellectually rigorous case for a Christian nation. One where women can't vote, immigration is strictly limited to maintain a Christian majority and only Christians (of a certain kind) can hold political office. From his base in Moscow, Wilson has built a denomination, a network of schools, and a multimedia empire. His church has doubled in size since the pandemic and his denomination has a new church plant in Washington D.C., where Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has been spotted in attendance. In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore who Wilson is, why he matters, and what his growing influence reveals about the kind of conservative religion gaining political power in this moment. GUEST: Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for Religion News Service and has been reporting on Doug Wilson since 2022. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What the holy heck is happening at Hillsong? The last six weeks have seen a seesaw of scandalous revelations between Hillsong U.S. and Hillsong Australia. The resignation of global senior pastor Brian Houston after revelations of sexual indiscretion. The discovery of allegations of rape by a junior staffer against a former pastor. The departure of several prominent U.S. pastors and Hillsong affiliated churches. A not-so-flattering documentary. And then the leaked report of the Hillsong NYC investigation, which painted a picture of a church leadership rife with abuse, sexual misconduct and secrecy. This week, Katelyn and Roxy break down the Hillsong breakdown — and explore some of the systemic issues that have seemed to haunt the church from the beginning. Roxy gives a recap of her reporting on Hillsong from the last few years — beginning with the firing of Carl Lentz, hype-priest and Justin Bieber confidante, for his “tequila-drenched love affair.” And we dig into some questions core to Katelyn's upcoming book on Christian celebrities. Including of course, just how deep can a pastor's V-neck go? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

When the clock keeps ticking, you gotta get picking ... a sperm donor, that is. Ok, but really, as more and more women are single into their late thirties and early forties, the option to have a child through in vitro fertilization becomes a very live question. As much as forty may be the new twenty, the biological timeline for many women still looms large. If you're someone who wants to bear children, waiting for the right partner may feel like a dead end. Or, as our guest today puts it, that's a lot of pressure for a first date. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk to a friend who made the decision to put dating on hold and become a mother on her own. We discuss process, finances, a bit of theology and a lot of love. GUEST: ⁠Annie Parsons⁠ gave birth to her baby boy in early October, just a few days after recording this episode. Everyone is healthy and happy and we are overjoyed for this fledgling family. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Let's get a drink sometime! New York's a drinking town. Happy hours. Boozy brunches. Martinis and oysters. The city's social life revolves around artisan cocktails and bubbly toasts and late night dive bars. And while the pandemic may have put a screeching halt to the social side of that life, it didn't stop the flow of booze. Restaurants offered craft cocktails to go, the sidewalks became open carry and delivery drinks were an app away. Drinking went from social to solo and it was during that time that both Katelyn and Roxy began to wonder if all this imbibing was really OK. On this episode, we examine our relationships with alcohol and the changes we've made since the pandemic. We're joined by Sarah Bessey — a self-described "evangelist" for the sober life — who gave up drinking a few years ago and hasn't looked back since. GUEST ⁠Sarah Bessey⁠ is the author of several books, including ⁠Jesus Feminist⁠ and the co-founder of the Evolving Faith conference. You can read her weekly musings at her substack: ⁠Sarah Bessey's Field Notes⁠.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

From Jesus Freak to freaked out. In this episode, we grapple with "the e-word" and why we struggle to claim the evangelical label. Having grown up fully immersed in that culture and going on to dedicate much of our careers to the movement, we examine our disillusionment and disappointment with its trajectory — and where we go next. The past five years revealed fractures and hypocrisies that betrayed so much of what we — and a generation of millennial Christians — grew up being taught. Now we wonder: Is evangelicalism worth saving? Plus: We go on an adventure to Washington Square Park to hear what some of our New York City neighbors think about the word "evangelical." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This episode, Katelyn and Roxy are joined by the GOAT, the legend who arguably started the spiritual podcasting genre, the longtime host of On Being, Krista Tippett. This wide-ranging conversation lingers on some of the more salient questions of our time: What is the role of faith in a technological era? Does religion only divide? How can spiritual practices make a difference in a world that needs action? GUEST: ⁠Krista Tippett⁠ is a journalist and Peabody Award-winning broadcaster. She created and hosts the podcast On Being and is the author of several books, including "Becoming Wise." She was awarded the National Humanities Medal by Barack Obama in 2014. From 2024 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Founded in 2007 as a "learning community that mobilizes Christians to advance the common good," Q was part of a broader movement of Christian cultural engagement in the mid-aughts and early teens. Much of it influenced by the late Tim Keller. Today, Q — now THINQ Media — feels emblematic of the broader tensions within evangelicalism around how Christians should navigate what they see as an increasingly hostile culture. The "winsome" approach is increasingly seen as naive, cultural engagement has given way to culture war rhetoric, and terms like "negative world" have entered the evangelical vocabulary. On this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy share memories of Q conferences over the years (Portland! Los Angeles! Boston! DC! ... and, finally, Nashville). We examine its decided shift rightward and mourn an importance space that feels lost. We are joined by Collin Hansen, editor-in-chief of The Gospel Coalition and author of a Tim Keller biography, who offers insight into the fractures among Keller's acolytes and the growing pushback against his approach.  GUEST: Collin Hansen serves as vice president for content and editor in chief of The Gospel Coalition, as well as executive director of The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. He hosts the Gospelbound podcast and is the author of several books, including "Timothy Keller: His Spiritual and Intellectual Formation. " He is an adjunct professor at Beeson Divinity School, where he also co-chairs the advisory board. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

First, we set the scene with our our most movie-worthy post-breakup moments — we're talking ice cream binging, sad song belting, pillow weeping melt downs. Next up, we get into your break-up stories. It's our long-awaited break-up episode and you, dear listeners, delivered. You sent in your sad stories, you sent in your sob stories, you sent in your weird stories and you sent in your evangelical stories. In this break-up bonanza, Katelyn and Roxy dissect the anatomy of a break-up — what makes for a good one and what makes for a bad one (no splitting up over text!). And we share our own tales of lost love — and also of dodging bullets. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Have you ever found yourself mid-doomscroll, suddenly enthralled by a beautiful woman baking a pie and arranging an armful of flowers freshly picked from her garden, while in the background her children play with adorable wooden toys on a natural fiber rug? You have stumbled into the trad-wife corner of the internet. Welcome. The bread is fresh and the grass is definitely greener (it's natural fertilizer). On this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy give you a tour of the trad wife phenemonon, it's various forms (from supermodels to crunchy granola types to the MAGA evangelists), and what in the Martha Stewart is going on with Ballerina Farm? They also talk with Kelsey Kramer McGinnis about why trad wives have found their moment and what the appeal is — because let's be honest, there is some appeal (even if you're just hate watching the posts). GUEST: Kelsey Kramer McGinnis is a writer, musicologist and educator who holds a PhD from the University of Iowa. She is a regular contributor to Christianity Today and the coauthor of the forthcoming book "The Myth of Christian Parenting: How False Promises Betrayed a Generation of Evangelical Families." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

You don't want to be THAT tourist. We all need a vacation and many of us are seeking more than rest or fun on our next getaway. Pilgrimages, retreats, wellness centers — an industry has grown up around the desire to to find transcendence — or at least a bit of mindfulness — while escaping real life. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore the cringe factors inherent in spiritual tourism — selfies in temples anyone? — and the true rewards that sacred travel can offer. We are joined by travel writer and spiritual seeker, Pico Iyer, who has turned his curiosity about the world's religions into a lifetime of finding grace in far-flung sacred spaces. GUEST: Pico Iyer is an essayist and author, perhaps best known for his travel writing. He has written 15 books and appeared in the pages of Time, The New York Times, Harper’s Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, among many others. His most recent book "Aflame: Learning from Silence," recounts his many visits to The New Camaldoli Hermitage in Big Sur, California. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's 2025, and the vibes feel a bit...off. It's been nearly five years since the murder of George Floyd and the national and global protests it sparked. Since then, we've seen local efforts to stop public schools from teaching about racism in America; withdrawal of federal funding for DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion) programs; and a broad attitude shift against various progressive causes. How do white Americans, especially white women, stay engaged in the work of racial justice when the headlines have moved on and when 'woke' is considered weak? This week, Katelyn and Roxy speak with Latasha Morrison, founder of Be the Bridge, on pursuing justice for the long haul and what gives her hope amid our anti-DEI moment. We also hear from a longtime Be the Bridge participant, Margo Yoder, on why relationships and proximity to real people matter more than social media posting. GUEST: Latasha Morrison is the founder of Be the Bridge, a nonprofit that promotes racial reconciliation and education, and author of the bestselling book Be the Bridge as well as the 2024 follow-up, Brown Faces, White Spaces: Confronting Systemic Racism to Bring Healing and Restoration. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Pope Francis was a man of the people. Will the next pope be? After 12 years as the head of the Catholic church — and the most famous Christian in the world — Pope Francis died on Monday (April 21) at 88. A charismatic reformer, the first Latin American pope and the first Jesuit pope, Francis was beloved well beyond the Catholic church. As world leaders, Catholic faithful and cardinals from around the globe travel to the Vatican this week to mourn Francis, talk of his successor has also begun. The Conclave — made all the more intriguing to many by the recent Oscar nominated movie of the same name — will take place in the coming days and the lists of "papabile," or favored successors, are already rolling in. Katelyn and Roxy are joined by Claire Giangravé, RNS's voice of the Vatican, for a reflection on Francis's legacy and a sneak preview of the Vatican drama to come. GUEST: Claire Giangravé is a Rome-based reporter for RNS, covering the Catholic Church and the Vatican. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Good Friday and Easter are basically the pinnacle of the Christian calendar. What it all centers on. But in recent years we’ve seen a lot of angst over what Jesus’ death on the cross and his resurrection really mean — and if what people grew up believing about them might be all wrong. We're talking, of course, about PSA — or penal substitutionary atonement theory. For some, this explanation of what happened on the cross has become more obstacle than on-ramp to Christianity. And has left many wondering — why did Jesus have to die, really? On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy dust off their theologian caps for a little lesson on historical atonement theories. And, with guest Brian Zahnd, imagine new (and old) ways of approaching the cross that go beyond theory. GUEST: Brian Zahnd is the founder and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, Missouri. He is the author of eleven books, including his most recent "The Wood Between the Worlds: A Poetic Theology of the Cross." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Chappell Roan says all her friends with kids are in hell. A popular subreddit asks "does anyone else just… not like kids?" A crowd of the usual suspects — pro-natalists, theo bros and mom influencers — pounce on these examples to decry our increasingly "anti-kid" and "childless cat lady" culture. Is this just a recycled generational debate — feminists vs homemakers but this time on TikTok — or is there something new going on here? Are some women (and men too, though maybe to less pearl clutching) just saying the quiet part out loud? That parenthood is really hard and changes your life, not always in super positive ways. That kids can be difficult to handle in public places. Or is this a true shift in public thinking — toward a less kid inclusive world? Katelyn and Roxy explore these questions and look at the evidence (data dump, anyone?), as we also ask: What role do children play in the Church and in Christian life? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Did you know there are piles of guidebooks meant to help women excel at being the church's first lady? From how to step out of a car when pulling up to church on Sunday, to preparing the perfect casserole, to keeping the kids smiling and still in the front pew. And those dirty dishes in the sink? They could be the talk of the lady's luncheon if you're not careful. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy dig into the pile of expectations put on pastor's wives — and the idea that his ministry must be her ministry. As a woman newly wed to a priest, Roxy wonders what those expectations mean for her — and which parts of this role to lean into and which to resist. And Katelyn ... well, Katelyn has some new reasons to care too (listen to find out!). We talk with historian Beth Allison Barr about why the role of pastor's wife has evolved in many denominations to be the primary path of ministry for some women. Plus: The Millennial Girl Boss's Guide to Being the Pastor's Wife (as cringe as you'd expect!) GUEST: Beth Allison Barr is the James Vardaman Professor of History at Baylor University. She is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, "Becoming the Pastor’s Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman’s Path to Ministry," as well as, "The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth." She is a pastor’s wife and mom. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What’s the woo-iest thing you believe in? Angels and demons? Ghosts? Astrology? On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy dabble in the metaphysical and get curious about the mystical. We also wonder if maybe we’ve gotten a little too skeptical of the spiritual? Enter our guest today: New York Times columnist, UFO enthusiast and religion apologist, Ross Douthat. We discuss the allure of the supernatural, the dangers of syncretism and why religion is the rational choice. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Katelyn and Roxy both moved to New York City with a dream of starting fresh and the promise of a new life with new adventures, new friends and new romance. And, to be honest, New York delivered on pretty much all of that. It's a great city! But it's not the only city — and moving here cost us too. Money, yes, but also stability and roots and proximity to long-time friends. We've both moved from city to city over the years, and we've gained gifts in each but we've also come to realize that age-old truth: wherever you go, there you are. On this episode, we explore the benefits of staying put and putting down roots — even as we celebrate our nomadic adventures. We are joined by Methodist minister and author Lydia Sohn who helps us see the spiritual roots of making home. GUEST: Lydia Sohn is a minister and a writer, currently serving as the senior pastor of Walnut United Methodist Church and the author of "Here: A Spirituality of Staying in a Culture of Leaving." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Were you more of a truth person or a dare person? On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy revisit some of the Capital T-truths of their youth group days and dare to say "maybe I don't believe that anymore." From hell to dinosaurs to midnight demons, we go there. And we're joined by Erin Hicks Moon, who isn’t afraid to ask the big, thorny questions about modern faith. Questions like: What if this whole Christian thing is just a man-made system used to control people? Why does it feel like so many Christians have lost their ding-dang minds? And, when is the Mexican Pizza coming back on the Taco Bell menu? Chapter Markers 0:00 - Do You Know Where You’re Going? (And Why We All Panicked) 3:10 - Truth or Dare: Evangelical Edition 7:00 - What’s the Most Embarrassing Dare You’ve Done? 9:49 - Asking Big Questions: What If None of This Is Real? 12:47 - The Fear of Hell & Writing to Brio Magazine 15:57 - Rapture Trauma: The Ultimate Sleep Paralysis Demon 18:00 - The Bible, Dinosaurs, and Why We Were That Kid at Church Camp 22:17 - If God Is Good, Why Is the World So Messed Up? 26:39 - Evangelicals and the Fear of Questioning Faith 30:34 - Erin Moon Joins to Talk About I've Got Questions 36:12 - Why Have So Many Christians Lost Their Minds? 40:47 - The Biggest Shift in Faith Since Our Youth Group Days 46:17 - What If Asking Questions Breaks Your Faith? 50:55 - Where to Go When You Don’t Know What You Believe 54:42 - Most Googled Questions of All Time (And Our Best Guesses) 55:47 - Outro & What’s Coming Next 👉 Subscribe for more bold conversations on faith, doubt, and the lives we build. Instagram, TikTok, YouTube: @savedbythecity Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

It's toxic. It's sinful. It's compassion corrupted. It's ruining the world and is definitely at the root of all the bad things. What is this fresh evil? Empathy, of course! Or so says a growing faction of Christians with very loud voices. On this first episode of a brand new season, Katelyn and Roxy try to trace this argument back to its roots and figure out how a trait that seems so virtuous — so Christian — became the bogeyman for a new movement of conservative evangelicals. Plus: a sickness story swap and the punishing timeline nobody asked for. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Core memory: flipping the Bible open to a random page, pointing with eyes closed to a verse, and "claiming" that verse as God's answer to the particular problem of that day. Whew. Where did we get that idea? On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy dig into those formative experiences with the Bible, many of them shaped by an evangelical approach to Bible reading and interpretation. We reflect on why Bible reading has become so complicated (even triggering?) as adults. What would it take to approach the Bible afresh — or, at least, with curiosity? We are joined by author and theologian Kaitlyn Schiess who offers some perspective on the use and abuse of the Bible in the public square, as well as some wisdom for when you want to pick the Good Book up again. Plus, listener Rachel shares her own grown up journey of learning to love the Bible. GUEST: Kaitlyn Schiess is a doctoral student at Duke Divinity School studying political theology, ethics, and biblical interpretation. She is most recently the author of "The Ballot and the Bible: How Scripture Has Been Used and Abused in American Politics and Where We Go from Here." She is a frequent co-host at the Holy Post podcast and host of Curiously Kaitlyn. Rachel! A listener of SBTC who emailed us to share her own story! We love it - we want more of it! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Gather 'round with your marshmallows and cups of cheer, it's that time of year to send good tidings and spiced takes. No, that's not a typo, though maybe you can have your cake and eat it too with this year's roasts and toasts. Did you embrace the barrel leg and the ballet flat? Are you pro-pigmy hippo or did you mute baby Moo Deng? And what about the end of Bennifer (again)? Katelyn and Roxy are joined by their first ever co-host, the extra zingy Tiffany Bluhm, as we up vote and down vote our way through the most important cultural phenomena of the year of our Lord, two thousand and twenty four. GUEST: Tiffany Bluhm is an author, speaker, and podcaster with two books under her belt: “The Women We’ve Been Waiting For: A 40-Day Devotional for Self-Care, Resilience, and Communal Flourishing", and "Prey Tell: Why We Silence Women Who Tell the Truth and How Everyone Can Speak Up." Tiffany also serves as executive director of PAX, which provides mentoring and vocational development for Christians of color. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

The days are getting short. The nights are getting long. Christ has come but he'll also come again. We're in the now and the not yet. We're waiting, preparing, standing guard. Y'all it's Advent. And this year, we are living that limbo life. Katelyn and Roxy explore the lessons of Advent for those in between seasons and how to live with intentionality when you're not sure what's next. Stephanie Duncan Smith joins the show to share some of her reflections on life through the lens of the liturgical calendar. Plus: Is there an enneagram type for every liturgical season? GUEST: Stephanie Duncan Smith  is a senior editor for HarperOne and the author of "Even After Everything: The Spiritual Practice of Knowing the Risks and Loving Anyway." She is also the creator of Slant Letter, a Substack for writers who want to deepen their craft and do it in style. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Picture this: a knock on the apartment door, in sweeps Jonathan Woodward, straight off a flight from Maine, grocery bags in hand. A few hours later, the apartment is heavy with the rich smells of simmering onions, sizzling beef and a stewing redwine sauce. A few more hours later, a few more knocks on the door and a party of four are seated at a table laden with food, wine and .... mics. It's our Thanksgiving special and we invite you to come, enjoy a meal with Katelyn, Roxy and special guests John Schmidt (Roxy's boo) and Jonathan (SBTC beloved producer). We laugh, we cry, we make fart jokes — and we are definitely filled with gratitude (and beef bourguignon, however you say that). GUESTS: The Rev. John Schmidt is the associate rector at The Church of the Epiphany in New York City. He has a Masters of Divinity from Duke Divinity School and is an avid oil painter. Oh yeah, and he's married to Roxy. Jonathan Woodward is the producer of Saved by the City and the director of the RNS Audio podcast network. Oh yeah, and he also had roles on such TV series as Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Firefly, among others. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Were you surprised by this year's presidential election results? On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy examine some of the major stories — religion and otherwise — to come out of exit polls. Hello rightward drifting young men. We are joined by award-winning journalist and political observer, Tim Alberta, who offers us both retrospective and prospective, forensics and forecast. We ask what to expect in a second Trump administration — and where might evangelicals fit in.   GUEST: Tim Alberta is a staff writer at The Atlantic and is the author of "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism." Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And yet, there are so many of us who have gone through a divorce and found love again. This week, Roxy talks about the many jagged edges of divorce and the long healing process. Katelyn asks: How can you be a good friend supporting someone facing a divorce? And we are joined by Melissa Moore who shares her own story of divorce recovery and how being divorced has affected her remarriage — for better and worse. GUEST: Melissa Moore  is a writer and leader with Living Proof Ministries. She is the co-author, with her mom Beth Moore, of "Now That Faith Has Come," a study on Galatians. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Life is no straight and narrow path and we've taken a few ill-advised turns. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy reflect on our smallest and biggest whoopsie daisies. Well, not all of them. We have a few categories to guide us. For example: what’s your “I shouldn’t have said that regret," and “biggest regret from 1998-2002” and “a memorable fashion regret.” But also, it won’t be that bad, because of course, everyone has regrets. Even Katelyn's 5-year-old nephew — who you will hear from and who has some sage wisdom for what to do when you make a boo boo. And that's the question really — how do you move on and make the most from your mistakes? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's spookier than a coffee hour full of strangers? Katelyn is on the road toward the midwest and a new city means a new church. But how to find the perfect match? It's no easy task and Roxy is here to help — with a super clarifying set of potential church scenarios. Red light: flee and don't look back. Yellow light: take a beat. Green light: go forth in peace. But, for real, what is it people look for when they look for a church? What makes a church good? We are joined this week by veteran religion reporter Adelle M. Banks who shares insights she's gleaned from congregations around the country who are trying to answer those questions — for today and tomorrow. GUEST: Adelle M. Banks is the projects editor and a national reporter for RNS. An award-winning journalist, Adelle is the co-author of “Becoming a Future-Ready Church: 8 Shifts to Encourage and Empower the Next Generation of Leaders.” Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices