THAT MOMENT - the secret to driving efficiency and growth. Presented by Supo.

Every agency owner dreams of the exit. The moment the deal closes, the burnout ends, and freedom begins. But here's the truth nobody tells you: most agencies will never get there. Not because they lack talent, but because they're building blind.Welcome to That Moment: Study Edition - a new format where industry leaders share frameworks you can actually use. This isn't philosophy. It's the laminated checklist you stick in your notebook, on your fridge, inside your bathroom cabinet door. The daily sense check of whether what you're doing is actually pivotal in moving toward the goal.Jeremy Williams is the agency coach who sold his B2B marketing agency for £11 million. He and his business partner set out with a plan from day one - fix a broken agency, turn it around, and execute the exit. They did. Now Jeremy coaches agencies through the same journey, and today he's sharing his Magnificent Seven - the seven things every agency must nail if they want a buyer to write the check.This isn't for lifestyle agencies content with steady revenue and flexible schedules. This is for growers looking to scale, duplicators building multiple offices, and exiters who've invested everything and need to realize that strategic valuation. If your agency is your biggest investment, your net worth, and you've borrowed money or spent blood, sweat and tears building it - this framework is your roadmap.The power of seven isn't accidental. Seven days of the week. Seven ages of man. Seven narrative plots. There's something about human psychology that can hold seven different things to remember. It's catchy. It's memorable. And according to Jeremy, it works.About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Jeremy Williams - The Agency Coach:Jeremy Williams sold his B2B marketing agency for £11 million and spent three years navigating the earn-out period. Now he coaches agency owners through growth, scale, and exit strategies, helping them build businesses that buyers actually want to acquire. His Magnificent Seven framework distills the essential principles that determine whether an agency achieves a strategic exit or simply fades. Jeremy works with growers, scalers, and exiters who are intentional about building valuable, saleable businesses.For more information about Jeremy Williams: https://theagencycoach.uk/Ready to discover whether you're building toward exit or just building blind? This Study Edition isn't about dreaming of the payday - it's about the seven daily disciplines that make the payday possible.

What happens when you go from hating marketing to becoming a Growth Director by accident? Rob Sherwood from The Digital Maze knows the answer - and it's nothing like what career advisors tell you.Most people think successful careers are planned. Rob's wasn't. He studied business management and marketing at Nottingham Trent because the psychological element interested him. His placement year? Tasks so simple he spent six months watching the clock, using his mum's "motivational mountain" - a family tool passed down from his diplomat grandfather - just to survive until it ended. He graduated convinced marketing wasn't for him.So he pivoted to sales. Got into telecoms bid management at a massive Japanese tech company. Cultural clash between slow-paced lifers and an ambitious 20-something who wanted to travel. He left, spent five and a half months in Southeast Asia (strategic timing - long enough for the experience, short enough not to hurt his CV), came back to another telecoms role. Younger company, boozy Friday lunches, but a bloated sales team where every prospect had already been contacted. Then Covid hit. April 2020. Redundancy.That's when Rob tried his own thing. Amazon FBA. He followed tutorials to the letter, found a gap in weighted fitness hula hoops - good demand, poor listings, decent pricing. Ordered 1,000 units. Sold out in two months without paid ads. Ordered 4,000 more with better branding. The factory shut for Christmas. His competitors made tens of thousands whilst he sat out of stock. When his shipment finally arrived, every single hoop was broken. The factory had lied about QA. He lost everything.A friend had offered Rob an agency role before - back when he returned from traveling. He'd turned it down because he wanted London life, not Nottingham. But after the hula hoop disaster, after Covid redundancies, after discovering marketing placements and telecoms sales both felt wrong, Rob reached out again. The timing was perfect. The agency had just bounced back from Covid cuts. And suddenly, working with ambitious brands on PPC, SEO, and web development - it all clicked.Now as Growth Director at The Digital Maze, Rob heads up sales, oversees brand marketing strategy, and supports teams and clients to identify new opportunities - whilst remembering exactly what it felt like to be completely lost.This episode tackles the uncomfortable truth about careers: sometimes the answer isn't planning better. It's being brave enough to admit what isn't working and staying open to what might.About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout The Digital Maze:The Digital Maze is a performance marketing agency based in Derby, supporting ambitious brands nationwide. Specialising in PPC, SEO, and web design & development, the agency works across sectors from Home & Garden and Food & Beverage to professional services. The Digital Maze focuses on delivering exceptional agency experience through strategic marketing that increases leads, sales, and business growth. The agency also runs Marketing Mastered - quarterly events, monthly newsletters, and a community for Derby's marketing scene to meet, learn, and level up.For more information about The Digital Maze: thedigitalmaze.comReady to discover why winding careers aren't failures, they're education? This episode isn't about planning better - it's about the self-belief required to admit what isn't working and stay open to what might finally click.

How do you walk away from a JSE-listed business with 350 employees and start over solo in London? Byron de Carvalho from Be Guided Agency knows the answer - and it's not what you'd expect.Most founders dream of the exit Byron chose to abandon. A ghost kitchen empire spanning South Africa. Netflix directing credits. Over 100 restaurant brands operating from his commercial kitchens. The kind of success that looks perfect on LinkedIn. Except Byron was drowning in it. "It wasn't that it wasn't enough," he admits. "It was just too much."The pivot from feeding film crews to building brands wasn't strategic repositioning - it was survival instinct meeting creative evolution. When Cape Town's 2015 drought devastated his film catering business (the government literally told people to shower once a week), Byron transformed 350 stranded employees into the infrastructure for South Africa's first major ghost kitchen operation. But watching startup after startup fail despite profitable delivery models, he discovered what was actually missing: the branding that connects human problems to business solutions.Now based in London but living in Valencia, Byron runs Be Guided Agency with a philosophy that makes traditional branding agencies uncomfortable: underdogs become standouts when they stop trying to fit in. He works at the inception phase - the messy R&D stage where founders are still figuring out what they're actually solving - not the polished rebrand phase. And he's built his entire business around three non-negotiables: what he's good at (sales), what he's passionate about (startups), and what keeps him creative (branding). Everything else gets delegated or ignored.This episode tackles the existential question every successful founder eventually faces: when do you walk away from what's working? And how do you build a business that serves your life instead of consuming it?The Uncomfortable Truths About Breaking Formulas:The Ghost Kitchen Revelation: Startups had cheap kitchen space and wholesale food pricing but still failed - the missing ingredient wasn't operational, it was branding that answered "what are you actually solving?"The Cling Wrap Epiphany: Watching his grandmother buy plastic film from a VeryMock infomercial taught teenage Byron everything about branding - they weren't buying cling wrap, they were buying being noticed.The Exit Strategy Failure: Byron's biggest regret wasn't building too big - it was staying three years past his exit date because he got greedy.The Self-Sufficiency Moat: When a film producer complained about crew needing vans and assistants, Byron bought trucks, generators, lighting, and toilets - self-sufficiency became his competitive advantage.About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Be Guided Agency:Be Guided works with tech and SaaS startups at inception phase - before product is defined, before positioning is clear, before founders know what they're solving. Operating between London and Valencia, the agency positions itself as the guide in the hero's journey: your customer is the hero, not you. Be Guided combines Byron's experience building multi-million pound businesses with his film and storytelling background, bridging founder anxiety and brand strategy. The agency specialises in uncovering the "last problem" - not what's in your product, but where it gets your customer.For more information about Be Guided Agency: www.beguidedagency.co.uk

What if landing your dream client was as simple as telling them they're your dream client? In this refreshingly candid episode of That Moment, host Jim Johnson sits down with Daisy Whitehouse, who proved that sometimes the boldest move is just being honest about what you want. Thirteen years ago, she started a Manchester PR agency with nothing but belief. She once messaged the MD of J.W. Lees saying they were her dream client. Years later, he remembered - and hired her for the Boddingtons campaign.When Daisy launched Down at the Social in 2009, Manchester's PR scene was dominated by 4-5 big agencies who rarely worked outside the city. Media City was a wasteland with no shops, no bars, and recruitment was brutal because nobody wanted to travel there. But Daisy spotted something the establishment missed: social media was exploding, hospitality was booming in Manchester, and every agency was still arguing about who should own those new channels whilst selling the same old press release formula.Her philosophy - "PR with a purpose beats PR for PR's sake" - sounds simple until you understand what it costs. She's walked away from vanity projects that wouldn't solve actual business problems, challenged clients who wanted newspaper coverage just to say they got it, and built a reputation for being uncomfortably direct about what works and what doesn't. Fourteen years in, she's now using TikTok trends to tell bakery clients which products to make.This episode tackles the tension every service business founder faces: when do you chase revenue, and when do you stay true to the work that matters? And why does building lasting client relationships require something most agencies won't give - actual time spent understanding their business?The Uncomfortable Truths About Building an Agency:The Dream Client DM: Why a simple "you're my dream client" message to William Lees led to the Boddingtons campaign - and what made him remember her years later.The Manchester Barrier: How northern agencies still fight perception they can't deliver national work - and why clients expect things "considerably cheaper" then get surprised.The Snobbery Problem: When The North Face wouldn't use a Cumbria agency because journalists were in London - and one founder who bucked that trend.The Media City Gamble: Moving into an office "in a wasteland" with no infrastructure whilst established agencies stayed comfortable in the city centre.No Tories, No Vapes: The business model built on cultural fit and values alignment - not just whoever pays well.The Influencer Evolution: From food bloggers everyone hated to TikTok creators driving frozen meal sales so successfully that new retail opportunities opened within weeks.About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Down at the Social:Down at the Social is a Manchester-based PR and social media agency specializing in making newsworthy brands famous through campaigns that put "bums on seats and move products off shelves." Their approach blends traditional PR with social media strategy, content creation, and event management - always grounded in understanding client businesses deeply rather than chasing vanity metrics. Named the third fastest-growing agency in the North, they've built their reputation on being uncomfortably direct, culturally selective (no Tories, no vapes), and committed to long-term relationships over quick wins.For more information about Down at the Social: downatthesocial.co.uk

What happens when you spend 18 years building brilliant websites, become an Umbraco Platinum Partner, help grow a global community from 70 people to thousands, and then realise nobody cares because every other agency is saying the same thing? Adam Shallcross knows that feeling intimately. He founded Cogworks in 2006 with two mates, discovered Umbraco in 2008 when it was a tiny Danish open-source project, and rode that wave to become one of the UK's first certified partners. He started the London Umbraco meetup. He launched the UK Umbraco Festival. He built a reputation on technical excellence and open-source values.But as the market grew from a handful of UK partners to over 100, leads stopped coming in. He had the realisation saying "we build great websites" meant nothing when a thousand other agencies said exactly the same thing. Adam spent two years wrestling with what made Cogworks actually different. The answer wasn't in the services list. It wasn't in technical capabilities. It was in something he'd been doing all along without recognising it as the value proposition: solving problems.The breakthrough came from stepping back and asking a harder question. Not "what do we do?" but "why do clients actually hire us?". The website is just the end product. It's the solution, not the problem. Clients don't wake up thinking "I need an Umbraco site". They wake up thinking "our editors waste hours on inefficient processes," or "our CRM and analytics don't talk to each other," or "we need to generate more qualified leads." Adam realised Cogworks had always been solving those problems, they just weren't positioning themselves that way.This realisation led to Orama Studio, a pre-built back office for professional services firms that cuts development time in half whilst keeping the front-end completely bespoke. It led to consulting work helping Prostate Cancer UK cut hosting costs by 85% whilst dramatically reducing environmental impact. It led to a fundamental repositioning from "we build websites" to "we solve problems, and it happens that 99 times out of 100, the solution involves a website".This episode tackles the question every agency founder eventually faces: how do you discover what actually makes you valuable? And why does the answer usually involve recognising what you've been doing all along?This episode addresses the question every established agency wrestles with: when you've built something successful using one positioning, when your market floods with competition saying identical things, when leads dry up because everyone claims the same capabilities, how do you discover your actual differentiation? And why does the answer usually involve recognising the value you've been creating all along without naming it properly?About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Cogworks:Cogworks is an independent digital product agency and Umbraco Platinum Partner based in London, helping B2B firms attract high-intent enquiries through strategy, design, and development. Founded by Adam Shallcross in 2006, the agency specialises in solving digital and operational problems for organisations across law, finance, SaaS, and mission-driven sectors. Their core work involves modernising legacy systems, automating content operations, improving accessibility and performance, and helping leaders understand how to apply AI without adding noise.For more information about Cogworks: wearecogworks.com

Everyone's obsessing about AI transformation… Which tools to use, which processes to automate, which competitors are moving faster…. But James Holden saw what everyone else was missing: it's not about the technology. It's about helping humans flourish alongside it. After 15 years as a senior BBC Director - leading 100 staff, managing £25 million budgets, sitting on boards - he walked away at 50 to study organisational psychology. Not because the BBC wasn't brilliant. Because he realised his real passion was human behaviour, leading teams through change, helping people fulfil their potential. And the actual work was getting in the way.Fast forward to 2025. James founded Holden Thinking and immediately faced a surge of demand he hadn't anticipated. Ten CEOs in a workshop room, all wrestling with the same challenge: how to transform their organisations with AI when their people are terrified. A session with 40 global Amazon leaders exploring what flourishing means as technology reshapes roles. NHS senior leaders navigating patient safety, data trust, and workforce resilience whilst AI accelerates change faster than anyone can track.The pattern was clear. Whilst everyone was deploying technology, nobody was addressing the human side. Leaders knew they needed AI adoption but had no framework for the uncertainty their teams faced. Generic training wasn't working. Pan-organisational rollouts were failing. A third of employees too embarrassed to admit they don't understand AI. Companies desperately don't want to lose their experts. The early majority realising "the time is now" but having no idea how to get their teams to the start line? - James was solving all of it through one fundamental insight: it's the uncertainty, not the change, that people struggle with.This episode tackles the question every leader wrestling with AI faces: - when your technical capabilities become table stakes.- when your audience behaviours outstrip employee comfort. - when the pace of adoption is so extraordinary that three-year plans become obsolete in six months.Why does flourishing, not just coping, become the competitive advantage nobody else is building?About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Holden Thinking:Holden Thinking is a business psychology consultancy founded by James Holden in September 2025, enabling leaders and organisations to thrive through AI-driven change with a focus on culture, wellbeing, and the human side of transformation. After 15 years as a senior BBC Director leading teams of 100+ across marketing, audiences, and insight, James combines psychological insight, leadership experience, and strategic storytelling to help organisations navigate new ways of working as AI reshapes roles and expectations. He works with senior leaders across sectors from global media and technology to frontline public services, delivering workshops, coaching, and culture change advisory work. James holds an MSc in Organisational Psychology with Distinction from City, University of London, and is a member of the Association for Business Psychology.For more information about Holden Thinking: https://www.linkedin.com/company/holden-thinking/

Picture this: you're hiring someone for your agency. They casually mention they used to be in a band. You ask which one, expecting you've never heard of them. They name it. You say, "What? My favourite band." That's how Simon Douglass met Tom Hastings. Simon had seen Tom's band, Goldheart Assembly, perform live 4 or 5 times. He even had a video of Tom on stage saved on his phone.Fast forward 11 years. Tom exits his performance marketing agency after scaling it from 5 people to 80+, opening a New York office, and working with some of the biggest names in live entertainment. He's on gardening leave, thinking about AI. First person he calls? Simon. Because whilst most people were still figuring out what ChatGPT meant for business, these two had been experimenting since its third birthday, building AI into processes, testing tools, making mistakes, learning what actually works.When an agency approached them to help embed AI into their business, Simon and Tom had to make it up. There was no framework. Most AI training was generic, theoretical, disconnected from real work. So they built something different: bespoke programmes starting with questionnaires to gauge where teams actually were, moving through orientation, prompting, automation, and culminating in hands-on implementation. Three sessions with gaps between to iterate based on feedback. Practical demonstrations on real client examples, not abstract tutorials.About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Curated:Curated is a digital marketing consultancy founded by Simon Douglass in 2014. After repositioning in 2020 from traditional agency work, they focus on business goals through a three-stage strategy: Enhance (identify competitive advantage), Expand (understand customer needs), and Evolve (refine with customer experience focus). With 21 years of digital marketing experience including PPC, SEO, analytics, and content marketing, Curated offers consultancy from content strategy to SEO auditing. The agency now specialises in AI training and consultancy for marketing and PR teams, delivered by Simon and Tom Hastings, focusing on bespoke programmes tailored to specific client workflows rather than generic training.For more information about Curated: https://curated-digital.com/About Beta Shift:Beta Shift is a growth marketing and AI consultancy founded and led by Tom Hastings, drawing on over 20 years of digital marketing experience including senior leadership in global agencies. The company helps brands adapt to the rapidly changing marketing landscape by integrating insights-led strategy with practical AI transformation and digital growth tactics. Its services span digital strategy, integrated search-everywhere optimisation, SEO, paid media, content engineering, data measurement, and tailored AI strategy and training, all designed around a client’s business reality rather than generic frameworks. Beta Shift works with marketing leaders, founders, and leadership teams through flexible engagements like fractional chief marketing leadership, project-based consultancy, strategic audits, and hands-on workshops. The firm emphasises using AI to enhance performance and sustainable growth, with bespoke solutions shaped to client workflows and goals rather than off-the-shelf models.For more information about Beta Shift: https://betashift.ai/

What happens when you've been the client avoiding account management calls because they're painful, then you join the agency and find yourself delivering the exact same calls you used to dread? Most people would defend the system. Dan Hodges changed it completely.Over 11 years at Conscious Solutions, Dan has watched the company double in size and completely transform what they do. But the transformation didn't start with strategy decks or consultant recommendations. It started with a memory. Back in 2009, as a business consultant doing strategic planning for a law firm, Dan experienced the soul-crushing account management call: stats dump, screen share showing invoices are up to date, perfunctory question about buying more services, call ends. Zero value. Pure transaction.Fast forward five years. Dan joins Conscious Solutions as Head of Marketing, a digital agency serving law firms. Marketing services represents 3% of turnover. There's one SEO person doing "a bit of SEO and a bit of social media." Dan admits he didn't understand digital, couldn't even explain what SEO stood for. But he understood something more valuable: he'd been on the receiving end of terrible client service, and he wasn't going to perpetuate it.When Dan started sitting in on account management calls, he recognised the pattern immediately. Same structure. Same lack of curiosity. Same transactional energy. The calls lasted 20 minutes, ticked boxes, went nowhere. So Dan asked a different question: "What do you want to achieve?" And everything changed. Those 20-minute calls became 40 minutes. Then 90 minutes. Sometimes two hours, much to account managers' frustration. Because Dan wasn't selling services, he was getting under the skin of the client's business, understanding not just what they needed but why they needed it.This episode tackles the tension every agency faces: when you've optimised for efficiency, how do you recognise you've optimised away the relationships that create real value? And why does the person who "knows a bit about a lot but not a lot about a bit" sometimes understand growth better than the technical experts?About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Conscious Solutions:Conscious Solutions has over 20 years of experience helping law firms become more successful online, working exclusively with law firms. Based in Bristol, the agency provides full-service digital marketing encompassing website design, SEO, PPC campaigns, digital PR, and ongoing optimisation. Their team consists of diverse individuals, from former law firm employees to marketing graduates, journalists, engineers, and apprentices who've progressed through the organisation. Their approach blends sophisticated technology with professionally written legal content, allowing law firms to choose services based on existing resources.For more information about Conscious Solutions: www.conscious.co.uk

In this revealing season of That Moment, our host Jim Johnson explores a question that haunts even the most successful founders: why do we feel like we shouldn't be in the room? Meet Aggie Meroni, bestselling author and founder of White Bee Digital, a paid social agency specialising in Meta, Pinterest and TikTok ads for e-commerce brands. She's trained hundreds of marketers, consulted with some of the fastest-growing DTC brands, and yet still battles the nagging feeling that someone's about to tap her on the shoulder and say, "Actually, we made a mistake."When Aggie pivoted from a decade in high finance, working with major banks, to retraining in digital marketing in her 30s with a new baby, nobody was offering her a chance. Covid hit, e-commerce boomed, and she became an "accidental business owner" five years ahead of schedule. What she discovered managing difficult clients at agencies taught her something counterintuitive: the more you push back, the more respect you earn. The more boundaries you set, the more clients trust you.Aggie brings the perspective of someone who's lived the volatility, from the iOS 14 privacy update that crashed unprepared brands in 2021, to the geopolitical upheaval that devastated consumer confidence in September 2024. She's seen behind the curtain of businesses that look thriving on social media whilst their books reveal they haven't paid themselves in two years. Her response? Radical honesty about how hard it actually is, what nobody's talking about, and why gaslighting business owners with highlight reels needs to stop.But Aggie's real wisdom comes from what she refuses to do: work with more than ten clients at once, tolerate disrespect to her team, or pretend the algorithm is predictable. She's rebuilt her agency's entire back end to respond to a massive Meta update that competitors are only just acknowledging ten months later. And she's written it all down in her bestselling book, Crack the Code, because the same questions kept arising again and again.The Accidental Agency Owner's Manifesto:Imposter Syndrome at Scale: Why coming from outside the agency world creates both credibility gaps and competitive advantages clients desperately needThe Covid Pivot: Launching a business five years early out of necessity when nobody would hire a 30-something with a new baby and no agency CVFrom Organic to Paid: Why Aggie abandoned organic social after clients' cousins' brothers' dogs kept undermining months of strategic workThe iOS 14 Correction: How the 2021 privacy update separated brands who'd diversified from those who crashed and burned relying solely on MetaBoutique By Design: Why ten clients maximum allows depth over breadth, and how that boundary protects both quality and sanityThe Honesty Tax: What it costs to admit publicly that business owners cry, struggle with cash flow, and spend unglamorous hours rebuilding systems nobody applaudsAbout Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout White Bee Digital:White Bee Digital is a paid social agency supporting e-commerce businesses to scale through online advertising on Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest and TikTok. The agency offers both done-for-you retainer services and training programmes, helping brands either outsource their paid social entirely or build in-house confidence through coaching and support. White Bee Digital specialises in navigating Meta complexities, creative strategy, and AI-powered systems that drive sustainable performance.For more information about White Bee Digital: https://whitebeedigital.com/

What happens when you spend 25 years building other people's businesses and finally realise you've been driving them "like your own" long enough to actually own one? Meet Sarah White, co-founder of Smile Digital Talent, whose biggest career eureka moment didn't happen in her 20s or even her 30s. It happened last June, during a walk with former colleagues who became co-founders.Sarah is the kind of recruiter people actually want to meet at networking events. After two and a half decades placing talent in agencies, tech firms, and creative studios, she's built a reputation on something uncommon in recruitment: telling the truth even when it costs placements. She's pulled candidates from final-stage interviews because they weren't the right cultural fit, despite clients wanting them. She sends 4-5 surgical CV matches instead of the industry-standard 20. And she's become known as "the networking queen" not through aggressive self-promotion, but because people keep saying, "You should talk to Sarah."When Sarah started in recruitment, it was ruthless, fastest finger first, spot business, straight in and straight out. Somewhere along the way, she stopped playing that game. She started building passive talent pools cultivated over years, not job ads that generate 400 responses and one interview. She began coaching hiring managers through psychological interview techniques and designing entire recruitment processes, not just filling vacancies. Most importantly, she started working with agencies who shared her values: trust, transparency, and mutual respect for time.But here's the tension: after managing divisions, building reputations, and driving businesses as though they were hers, Sarah was still working with one arm tied behind her back. Smile Digital Talent launched in January 2025, proving that sometimes the most important career moment comes not from early ambition, but from finally recognising you've earned the right to bet on yourself.From Sarah's perspective as someone who spent over 20 years building credibility before launching her own brand, witness how foundational work compounds. That network she built? It became referral-based business. Those relationships with Mark and Katie from two decades ago? They became co-founder partnerships. The values she practised managing other people's divisions? They became Smile Digital Talent's competitive differentiation.This episode addresses the question every experienced professional wrestles with: when you've spent decades building expertise, trust, and reputation working for others, how do you recognise the moment to bet on yourself? And why does caring deeply, listening honestly, and pulling candidates from lucrative placements when they're wrong create more sustainable success than transactional speed ever could?About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximise profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Smile Digital Talent:Smile Digital Talent takes the pain out of recruitment, one smile at a time. Specialising in tech, digital, and creative roles for agencies, they know the agency world from top to bottom. Their 360 talent approach embeds them in the industry, using extensive networks to genuinely understand client needs and pinpoint talent that gels with values and vision. When recruitment is this collaborative, the results speak for themselves.For more information about Smile Digital Talent: https://www.smiledigitaltalent.uk/

In this thoughtful episode of That Moment, host Thailah Newton explores a question that haunts every agency professional: how do you protect creative space while managing relentless client demands? Meet Stef Lait, Client Services Director at OST, a B2B social media agency, who's spent her career learning that the best work emerges not from saying yes to everything, but from knowing when, and how, to say no.When Stef moved from Canada to the UK, from writing to leading client experience, she discovered something counterintuitive: the same discipline that makes good writing also makes good leadership. Don't stop to edit every idea as it emerges. Get everything down first, judge later. In brainstorms, this becomes "no idea's a bad idea", creating psychological safety that unlocks breakthrough thinking for B2B brands often dismissed as boring.But Stef's real wisdom comes from what she's learned to refuse. Working through summer holidays when the team was depleted? Sometimes necessary, if you're not asking others to sacrifice. Replying to client emails at 11:30pm? Depends on the time zone and whether you've made expectations clear. The boundary isn't rigid; it's conscious. And that consciousness, she argues, is what separates sustainable high performance from eventual burnout.Stef brings the perspective of a recovering people-pleaser who's learned that "what other people think of you is none of your business." She understands why junior team members struggle to push back on scope creep, which is why she practises actual role-play scenarios, giving people the vocabulary and confidence to have difficult conversations before the pressure's on.This episode tackles the tension every client-facing professional eventually faces: how do you deliver excellent work without sacrificing the team culture that makes excellence possible? And why do the projects we remember most have less to do with results and everything to do with the people we worked alongside?The Art of Conscious Boundaries:Stream of Consciousness, Then Edit: Why the writing discipline of "get it all down first" transforms brainstorms from self-censoring to breakthrough thinkingThe Planner's Paradox: Booking meetings with yourself, protecting focus time, yet staying visibly available when the team needs youMovement Unlocks Ideas: Voice-recording thoughts mid-run, journalling on trains, walking meetings, why static positions produce static thinkingThe Boundary Buzzer Reality: Not all 11:30pm emails are equal, not all scope creep is wrong, context determines whether yes serves or sabotagesRole-Play the Hard Conversations: Practising client pushback scenarios sounds silly until the real moment arrives and you have the vocabulary readyThe Katherine Ryan Principle: "What other people think of you is none of your business", advice that freed a recovering people-pleaser to lead authenticallyAbout Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximize profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout OST:OST is a global B2B social media agency that makes brands unmissable. Specialising in LinkedIn presence, advocate marketing, and creative campaigns that cut through B2B noise, OST proves that even "boring" businesses have compelling stories worth telling. With a focus on work that actually drives results, not just vanity metrics, they help B2B brands build genuine connections in crowded digital spaces.For more information about OST: ostmarketing.com

In this revealing episode of That Moment, host Thailah Newton explores what happens when an agency hits the invisible ceiling - that point where more work doesn't mean more profit, just more chaos. Meet Noémie El-Maawiy, Operations Manager at Minty, who joined a fast-growing creative agency at precisely the moment when spreadsheets were breaking, projects were slipping through cracks, and the founder was drowning in operational details that pulled him away from the strategic work only he could do.When Noémie arrived at Minty, the agency was trapped in a pattern familiar to many growing firms: winning exciting clients, delivering brilliant creative work, but struggling with the unglamorous operational foundation that makes sustainable growth possible. Time tracking lived in one system, project management in another, invoicing somewhere else entirely. The result? Hours lost reconciling data, projects running over budget without anyone noticing until it was too late, and a team working harder without the agency becoming more profitable.Noémie brings the perspective of someone who's lived both sides of the agency equation — from creative roles to operations leadership. She understands why creative teams resist process ("it feels like it's slowing us down") while recognising that without structure, growth becomes unsustainable. Her approach isn't about imposing rigid systems that kill creativity; it's about building operational clarity that frees people to do their best work.This episode tackles the universal challenge facing scaling agencies: how do you professionalise operations without losing the entrepreneurial energy that made you successful? And why does every growing firm eventually hit the moment when "just working harder" stops being the answer?The Reality of Operational Transformation:The Spreadsheet Breaking Point: When manual processes that worked for 10 people actively sabotage you at 20+.The Founder's Dilemma: How operational chaos traps leaders in reactive mode, preventing the strategic thinking that drives growth.Creative Resistance to Process: Why designers and developers see structure as bureaucracy — until they experience what good systems actually enable.The Data Fragmentation Problem: Managing time tracking, project management, and invoicing across disconnected tools that don't talk to each other.Invisible Profit Leaks: Projects running over budget without visibility until month-end, when it's too late to course-correct.The Implementation Reality: Why rolling out new systems always takes longer than expected and requires more change management than technical setup.Key Insights Uncovered:Why operations managers are translators - speaking both the language of creative teams and the language of business metricsThe psychology of process resistance: creative professionals equate structure with constraint until they see it creates freedomHow real-time visibility transforms reactive firefighting into proactive project managementWhy "just one more spreadsheet" becomes the enemy of scalable operationsThe challenge of implementing proper systems while client work continues — you can't stop the engine to rebuild itHow operational clarity frees founders to focus on strategy instead of daily firefightingFrom Noémie's perspective as someone who moved from creative roles into operations, witness the mindset shift required to see that structure doesn't kill creativity — it protects it. Her journey at Minty reveals what sustainable transformation looks like: not a dramatic overnight change, but patient, persistent work to build foundations that let brilliant creative work flourish profitably.Noémie shares the operational leader's reality: getting buy-in requires showing teams how systems serve them, not just tracking them. Change management isn't about forcing compliance; it's about demonstrating value until resistance transforms into advocacy.

In this unfiltered episode of That Moment, host Thailah Newton sits down with Brant McNaughton, a founder who's been solving complex problems for 26 years — not by chasing every opportunity, but by knowing exactly when to walk away. From tinkering with computers in his bedroom in Invercargill, New Zealand, to building custom digital engines for the NHS and Sennheiser, Brant's journey proves that lasting success isn't built on systems alone. It's built on relationships, boundaries, and the courage to say no.When Brant built an appointment booking system for a dentist friend 20 years ago, it wasn't just about solving a no-show problem. That system became credited as the cornerstone of a business sale years later — proof that the right solution at the right time creates value that compounds over decades. But Brant's real wisdom comes from what he's learned to refuse: toxic clients, unrealistic expectations, and projects that sacrifice team wellbeing for portfolio prestige.Brant brings a refreshingly blunt philosophy -"don't work with dickheads and don't burn your bridges" — that sounds contradictory until you understand his approach. He's walked away from paying clients to protect team morale, invited former employees to his 25th anniversary party, and rehired his best team member who'd left years earlier. His mantra? "You can control your reactions," even when you can't control difficult clients.This episode tackles the tension every agency founder faces: when do you prioritise revenue, and when do you prioritize the people who actually create the work? And why is walking away one of the hardest - but most crucial - skills for entrepreneurs to master?The Hard-Earned Wisdom of Walking Away:The "As You Bond" Culture: Growing up in Invercargill taught Brant that your word is your bond — but protecting your team matters more than keeping toxic clientsFrom Form to Function: Why Brant spent too many early years worrying about aesthetics instead of delivering outcomes, and how that shiftedThe Luxury of Saying No: How 26 years in business gave him something money can't buy: the freedom to refuse projects that don't fitClients Who Don't Respect Value: Why prestige portfolio pieces aren't worth it when payment comes 60 days lateThe Little Devil on Your Shoulder: The internal battle between revenue protection and team protection — and why team always winsRehiring the Best Decision: How maintaining relationships with departing employees led to bringing back his Head of Delivery years laterAbout Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximize profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Ecce:For 26 years, Ecce has built custom digital engines that become the operational core of businesses — not off-the-shelf solutions, but bespoke platforms that solve complex, frustrating problems. From replacing chaotic spreadsheet systems for logistics clients to creating revenue streams from data monetisation, Ecce specialises in proving that custom-built technology delivers real ROI. Founded by Brant McNaughton, who brought a "get it done right" attitude from financial trading in Wellington and London, Ecce has worked with clients including Sennheiser, the NHS, and businesses that need technology they can depend on under pressure.For more information about Ecce: https://ecce.co.uk/

In this revealing season premiere of That Moment, host Thailah Newton explores the uncomfortable truth every scaling agency faces: the systems that got you to 20 people will actively sabotage you at 25. Meet Matt Ville and Laura Hudspith from Hiyield, who discovered that preparing for Employee Ownership Trust transition meant confronting a foundation built on founder instinct, scattered data, and developers who just wanted to "crack on with the work."When Hiyield split from one all-in-one system into multiple "best in class" tools, they thought they were gaining flexibility. Instead, Laura found herself spending hours pulling monthly reports from five different places, prone to human error, while crucial billing hours got "lost in the aether." Meanwhile, Matt realized his software development mindset hadn't prepared him to run a business — and the gut-feeling decisions that worked at startup scale were holding them back.Matt brings raw founder honesty — admitting "some will say I still don't know how to run a business." Laura provides operational reality — explaining why implementing proper data infrastructure took far longer than expected and required confronting messy historical records nobody wanted to clean. Together, they reveal what sustainable transformation looks like when you can't afford to stop delivering client work while fixing the engine.This episode tackles the existential challenge facing employee-owned businesses: how do you ask 25 people to think like owners when only three people can see the numbers? And why does the work you avoid early become exponentially harder later?The Uncomfortable Truths About Scaling:The Productive Paradox: Why leaving an all-in-one system for specialized tools created data fragmentation nightmares.When "Just Three of Us" Becomes 25: How rapid growth creates operational debt you don't notice until it's choking you.Developers vs. Admin: Why creative teams resist structure even when it protects profitability, and the psychology of "let's just crack on" culture.The EOT Catalyst: How employee ownership transition forced uncomfortable conversations about transparency they'd been avoiding.The Timing Regret: Why waiting until £1M+ revenue made everything harder than implementing systems earlier would have been."Numbers Don't Lie": How factual data transforms difficult conversations from gut-feeling arguments to evidence-based decisions.About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximize profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Hiyield:Hiyield is a B Corp certified digital agency based in Truro, Cornwall, creating bespoke websites and web apps with sustainability at their core. They craft digital experiences that elevate businesses while looking after the planet, producing Carbon & Emissions reports for every project delivered. After six years of founder-led growth, they transitioned to an Employee Ownership Trust in March 2025, guided by three core values: Fearless progression + Active Partnership = Rewarding work.For more information about Hiyield: https://hiyield.co.uk/

In this insightful episode of That Moment, host Helga Saraiva explores one of the most pressing questions facing professional services today: how do we preserve the human elements that clients truly value while embracing the efficiency that AI promises?Meet Sharon Austin, Partner at PKF Francis Clark, whose 30-year journey in accountancy has given her a unique perspective on what really matters when technology transforms everything around us. Sharon brings both the wisdom of experience and the curiosity needed to navigate an industry in flux.When Sharon realized that leadership wasn't just about technical excellence but about understanding people, her approach to both clients and teams fundamentally shifted. Her breakthrough came from recognizing that the human side was missing from traditional professional services delivery, and that genuine connection creates lasting value that no algorithm can replicate.Sharon combines decades of client relationship expertise with a refreshingly honest take on the future of work. From building trust through difficult times to mentoring the next generation in a hybrid world, she reveals how firms can maintain their humanity while leveraging technology for growth.This episode tackles the reality facing every professional services firm: when AI can deliver technical information faster than humans, what becomes our true competitive advantage?The Human-First Professional Services Framework:Trust Through Adversity: Why the strongest client relationships are forged during difficult moments, not perfect deliveriesReading Beyond Words: How human advisors excel at interpreting the 93% of communication that isn't verbalThe Question Behind the Question: Why asking what clients really need matters more than answering what they literally askRelationship vs Transaction: Building long-term partnerships that transcend individual projectsPresence-Based Mentoring: Why early-career development requires in-person experience before remote flexibilityIn revealing conversations, Sharon shares how she's built decades-long client relationships, why trust can't be rushed, and how the next generation of professionals can develop the judgment that makes human advisors irreplaceable.About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximize profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Sharon Austin:Sharon Austin is a Partner at PKF Francis Clark, bringing over 30 years of experience in building client relationships and developing talent in the accountancy profession. Sharon specializes in audit and assurance while focusing on the human elements that create lasting value in professional services. She's passionate about developing the next generation of professionals and helping firms navigate the balance between technological efficiency and human connection.For more information about PKF Francis Clark: www.pkf-francisclark.co.uk

In this transformative episode of That Moment, host Helga Saraiva confronts the operational nightmare that silently kills agency growth: when talented teams are drowning in firefighting instead of building for scale. Meet Lee Warcup, founder of Beat Agency and operational transformation expert with 18 years of agency experience, as he reveals how agencies can break free from chaos and build operations that actually enable growth - not just survival.When Lee stepped outside his comfort zone to share his voice publicly for the first time, he discovered something profound: growth happens at the edge of discomfort, and this principle shouldn't just apply to founders. His breakthrough came from transforming broken agency operations, where he learned that quiet team members often hold the most valuable insights.Lee brings both tactical expertise and people-first philosophy needed for transformation. From design and production to senior leadership and founding Beat, he reveals how agencies can build operations as competitive advantages that drive profitability and team satisfaction.This episode tackles the reality facing growing agencies: when operations become bottlenecks, even talented teams can't reach their potential, and growth becomes painful rather than profitable.The Operations Transformation Framework:People-First Process Design: Why better roles and clearer accountability create stronger teamsSystem Integration & Automation: Making technology work for agencies, not against themEfficiency Audits: Finding where time and money disappear in daily operationsFractional Leadership: Providing hands-on support when agencies need immediate expertiseScalable Growth Planning: Creating sustainable, profitable models that support expansionIn revealing conversations, Lee shares how he's saved agencies over £150k through resource optimisation, transformed chaotic studios into efficient operations, and helped merge complex organizations while maintaining team morale and culture.Key Insights Uncovered:Why process enhances creativity instead of killing it in agenciesHow £150k savings come from fixing resource management inefficienciesThe people-first approach to operational transformation that actually worksWhy stepping outside comfort zones unlocks hidden team potentialHow to identify when operations are the real barrier to agency growthThe difference between fractional support and strategic consulting approachesLee shares his core philosophy: "Growth happens at the edge of discomfort, and every business should build this mindset into its people strategy." Drawing from major operational restructures and saving agencies over £150k, he demonstrates how the right foundation enables sustainable growth.This episode addresses the fundamental question every scaling agency faces: when teams are constantly firefighting instead of building for the future, how do you create operations that support growth without killing creativity?About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximize profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Our Guest Lee Warcup:Lee Warcup is the founder of Beat, specializing in optimizing agency operations for growth through people-first processes. With 18 years of agency experience, Lee has led major operational restructures, saved agencies over £150k through resource optimization, and transformed chaotic studios into efficient operations. He partners with agencies to fix operational challenges, providing both hands-on implementation and strategic guidance for scaling.For more information about Beat: www.beatagency.co.uk

In this game-changing episode of That Moment, host Helga Saraiva dives into the harsh reality that haunts every business leader: doubling revenue while profit barely budges. Meet Jeremy Williams, founder of Stratus Coach and exited agency owner who built and sold his B2B marketing services business for £11m, as he reveals why "turnover is vanity, profit is sanity" - and how his revolutionary Five Levers model can deliver 50% greater profitability without hiring a single new person.When Jeremy decided to conquer his presenting fears through stand-up comedy, he discovered something unexpected: the art of being authentic under pressure translates directly to boardroom leadership. But his real breakthrough came from years of watching business owners make the same fatal mistake - throwing money at sales teams hoping to fix profitability problems, only to watch their margins shrink further.This episode tackles the uncomfortable truth facing scaling businesses: when owners focus solely on revenue growth, they often build themselves into a corner where working twice as hard yields diminishing returns.The Five Levers Revealed:Leads: The foundation that most get wrong from the startConversion Rate: Why your sales process might be sabotaging profitsAverage Project Value: The metric most leaders avoid trackingPurchase Frequency: How to transform clients into recurring revenueMargin: The "tired sound engineer" everyone ignores but determines successIn an illuminating segment called "CEO Roast: Margin Madness," Helga plays the revenue-obsessed rookie CEO while Jeremy systematically dismantles every excuse with surgical precision. The result? A masterclass in why chasing bigger numbers often leads to smaller profits.Key Insights Uncovered:Why 10% improvements across five areas outperform hiring expensive sales talentThe difference between "good reflection" and analysis paralysis that kills decisionsHow stand-up comedy creates the authentic leadership style that drives resultsThe LSC metric no agency tracks but shouldWhy leading from the front is terrible advice except in crisis situationsJeremy shares his core philosophy: "Don't fight the feedback. Take the medicine and talk to someone else because it is lonely at the top." Drawing from his successful exit and years of coaching agency leaders, he reveals how embracing feedback and systematic thinking transformed his approach to business growth.About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximize profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: ⁠www.supo.co.ukAbout Our Guest Jeremy Williams:Jeremy Williams is the founder of Stratus Coach, a marketing agency coach, executive coach, and Non-Executive Director. As an exited agency owner who built and sold his B2B marketing services business for £11m, Jeremy now helps agencies with turnaround, profitability, and rapid growth. He's a faculty speaker for the FT Board Director Programme and works with leaders in business and elite football. When he's not analysing profit margins, you might find him perfecting his stand-up comedy routine.Ready to discover why your revenue growth isn't translating to profit? This episode isn't just about business metrics - it's about the leadership transformation required to build a business that works for you, not against you.

In this explosive debut episode of That Moment, host Helga Saraiva from Supo dives deep into the messy reality of driving change in professional services. Meet Mark Burgess and Mark Hewitson, two leaders from Ensors who are transforming how a traditional 300-person, six-office firm actually operates - not just in theory, but in real time, with real resistance.When Ensors rolled out a new engagement letter system, it should have been a win - saving hundreds of hours monthly with massive financial impact. Instead, team members pushed back, demanding to return to "the old way." Sound familiar? This episode unpacks what happens when best intentions meet human nature, and why silence is more dangerous than pushback.Mark Burgess brings the vision - championing change, challenging comfort zones, and pushing boundaries with the energy of someone who believes transformation is survival. Mark Hewitson provides the pragmatic counterweight - understanding that failed IT projects (60 in 20 years!) create skepticism, and that sustainable change requires bringing people on the journey, not just dragging them along.Together, they reveal the delicate balance between innovation and implementation, between disrupting the status quo and respecting the reality of organisational inertia.In a fascinating twist, Helga flips the script in an interactive role-play called "Switch the Channel." The usually cautious Mark H becomes the visionary advocate for a radical client engagement initiative, while the typically pro-change Mark B plays the skeptic, raising hard questions about implementation. The result? An illuminating exploration of how perspective shapes our approach to change.The scenario: scheduling 20-minute client calls every fortnight - not about tasks, but about their business challenges and goals. It's "client listening disguised as curiosity," but can it work in practice?Why 60 failed IT projects created a culture of skepticism, and how to overcome itThe difference between compliance-driven change and culture-driven transformationHow to identify and empower champions across disparate officesWhy "rules vs. freedom" tension is actually healthy for innovationThe art of calculated risk-taking in traditional professional servicesHow to eat an elephant: one bite at a timeFrom Mark H's perspective as IT Partner since April 2023, witness how bringing on CTO Mark Burgess transformed not just systems, but mindsets. In just 11 months, they've revolutionised how IT integrates with the firm, moving from separation to embeddedness, from transaction to transformation.Mark B shares his philosophy: "Wake up every day with a mindset that this is going to be the best day because we're going to make some change and we're going to make people happy." But he's also brutally honest about the reality: "Things don't always work the first time and things break. Your car breaks. You live with it."This episode tackles the existential question facing all traditional firms: as services become commoditised and clients demand different ways of consuming what you offer, how do you evolve without losing what made you successful?About Supo:Supo provides people-first intelligence software for professional services firms, helping businesses maximize profit and motivate their people through powerful, AI-enabled business intelligence dashboards. By connecting over 500+ platforms and providing real-time data analysis, Supo helps firms make better data-driven decisions about their profit, projects, and people.For more information about Supo: www.supo.co.ukReady to challenge your own comfort zone? This episode isn't just about technology rollouts - it's about the human side of transformation and what happens when theory meets the messy reality of organisational change.