The Wicked Truth: Third Things First

Do you feel in touch with your deepest goals and desires? Or do your dreams feel more like distractions from the hurt and broken relationships you've been avoiding? In this follow‑up episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross continues the conversation with magician and Rene Girard scholar James Warren and Roman Catholic mystic and Tarot reader Sally Graciela Ramirez about how magic and mysticism influence their spiritual practice. Then, they delve into even thornier issues of scapegoating, humility, and daily practices of joy.Sally describes how she reads Tarot as a tool for discernment rather than fortune‑telling, steering clients away from fantasy and toward reconciliation. Her practice, she explains, is less “magic” than mysticism grounded in humility, scripture, and love of neighbor.Jim reflects on how this inner work connects to mimetic theory and our current culture of rivalry and blame. He names “the spirit of accusation”—our urge to point the finger and feel certain we know who the problem is—as a key driver of polarization, resentment, and escalating conflict. Drawing on Girard’s insights about scapegoating, he invites listeners to look at the three fingers pointing back at us: the shame, guilt, and woundedness that so often hide beneath our righteous anger and desire for vengeance.The episode also explores:- How authentic dreams differ from escapist fantasy.- A gentle, inclusive approach to Christian mysticism.- Morning routines and the mysticism of the mundane.- The shared gratitude of two people looking back on lives once filled with "nightmares," now filled with love, shalom, and unexpected gifts.If you’re wrestling with accusation (online or in your own heart), trying to discern between holy longing and fantasy, or simply looking for grounded, accessible practices of prayer and joy, this conversation offers both spiritual depth and very practical tools.👉 Explore Jim and Sally’s work:Jim's website: https://warrenmagic.com/Jim's book: https://www.amazon.com/Compassion-Apocalypse-Comprehensible-Thought-Girard/dp/178279073XSally's website: https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/Sally's music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI⏱ Chapters (approx.)0:00 Dreams vs. fantasy: why real dreams require reconciliation2:07 Sally on Tarot cards as tools6:30 How did these two meet?9:54 Mysticism as awareness of interconnectedness and love12:15 The humble power of "not knowing"15:13 Rene Girard and the “spirit of accusation” in modern culture19:55 Finding joy and gratitude in daily life

What if close‑up magic and Tarot readings could help us loosen our certainty, imagine new possibilities, and take small steps toward peace with justice? In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with magician and Rene Girard scholar James Warren, and Roman Catholic mystic and Tarot reader Sally Graciela Ramirez about art, mystery, and conflict transformation.James, an MDiv-trained magician who has performed for years at Hollywood’s Magic Castle, shares why he calls magic “possibility in your pocket”—a playful, off-the-cuff art form that can be done anywhere, anytime, to create moments of wonder and release. Drawing on Soren Kierkegaard, he explains how powerful tricks can free people from the “box” of necessity, spark laughter and awe, and even build unlikely bridges across racial and class divides.Sally, whose spiritual journey has woven through Zen Buddhism, Sufi-led psychic development, Native American traditions, and a return to Catholicism, explains how she uses Tarot as a contemplative tool rather than fortune-telling. Through images like the Hermit and the Star, she invites clients to look inward, heal family relationships, and co‑create a life of spiritual alignment, not just personal desire. For her, mysticism is grounded, prayerful, and oriented toward loving neighbor and making peace at home.Together, James and Sally explore:- How art forms like magic and Tarot can function as “third things” in tense communities, creating safe space for imagination and shared delight.- The difference between fantasy and ethically grounded dreams, and why inner work and reconciliation must precede “manifesting” outcomes.- How Christians might rethink “occult” fears and see the continuity between deep prayer, symbolic art, and inclusive, Spirit-led discernment.- Why small, face‑to‑face acts of wonder—like a card trick between strangers—can be a real practice of peacebuilding and nonviolent connection.If you’re curious how art, mystery, and faith can open new paths through conflict, or you’re skeptical about magic and Tarot but still longing for more imaginative tools, this conversation offers playful, thoughtful, and disarming perspectives.👉 Learn more and connect:James Warren: https://warrenmagic.com/Sally Grace Readings: https://promotingme-ecard.com/sally-grace-ramirez/Sally's music: https://open.spotify.com/artist/4aXsTtwrnFN8B6eLZUHKwI🕊 Sign up for our newsletter at www.thewickedtruth.com to receive updates on every new upload, and info on the revised Wicked Truth ebook, a study of how you can use the musical Wicked as a “third thing” to galvanize communities seeking peace with justice!0:00 Magic anywhere2:05 Why certainty blocks conflict transformation3:15 Introducing magician James Warren and mystic Sally Graciela Ramirez5:18 Sally’s journey: Zen, Sufi teachers, and returning to Catholicism10:00 How Sally uses Tarot: prayer, images, and healing15:17 What Jim wants audiences to experience: release, laughter, and awe16:45 Magic as possibility vs. necessity21:18 Can magic be a “third thing” in conflict communities?26:38 Handling skepticism and fear of magic and the occult29:40 Tarot, discernment, and neighbor love35:31 Closing reflections on art, Tarot, magic, and peace with justice

In part 2 of their conversation, Suzanne Ross talks with theologian and peacebuilder Dr. Andrew DeCort about moving through shame and rage into what he calls the “purple sphere” of grief—and discovering blessing and joy on the other side.Andrew, author and founder of the Neighbor Love Movement and the Reframe newsletter, shares from his recent arrest with 90+ faith leaders in a nonviolent protest against ICE in Minneapolis and reflects on how our culture’s “glee in other people’s grief” corrodes our souls and our politics. Drawing on James Baldwin, Toni Morrison, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Andrew and Suzanne explore what it means to resist othering without becoming otherers ourselves.Together they trace a kind of emotional “stratigraphy”:Green shame, that sinking sense of not being enoughRed anger, the fire that can be destructive or creativePurple grief, the terrifying freefall where “why finds no answer”Blue joy, the ambient delight that appears when we love what is truly goodYou’ll hear practical Neighbor Love practices for metabolizing anger, inhabiting grief safely in trusted relationships, and blessing even those we oppose: ICE officers, political leaders, and ourselves. Andrew models a radical blessing practice inspired by Bonhoeffer: “Despite everything, you belong to God.”If you’re feeling consumed by political rage, tempted to dehumanize those you see as the problem, or struggling to believe that you belong to God, this conversation offers an honest, embodied, and hopeful path forward.👉 Follow Andrew’s work:Website: https://andrew-decort.comSubstack (Reframe / Stop & Think): https://andrewdecort.substack.com⏱ Chapters (approx.)2:14 Green shame, red anger, and the descent into purple grief4:28 Glee in others’ grief and DHS’s Christmas deportation memes7:17 Fear as the ether around shame, anger, and grief8:44 Grief must be witnessed: vulnerability and safe relationships9:13 Pain as superpower: circles of exclusion becoming solidarity12:19 Nonviolence as creative response vs. reactive conformity14:12 Not othering the otherers and blessing our enemies15:11 Bonhoeffer’s embodied blessing and belonging to God19:55 Blue joy: loving what is good in nonviolent resistance21:23 Kneeling in the cold: ambient joy at the Minneapolis ICE protest24:04 Wicked’s ambiguous fall as an image of grief’s “unlimitedness”26:11 How to follow Andrew and his upcoming book

Scholar, peacebuilder, and “dissident theologian” Andrew DeCort joins us from his bathtub to discuss his arrest at an anti-ICE protest in Minneapolis, and his discovery that anger is “a fire that can make beauty.” In this extraordinary conversation, Andrew and Suzanne explore the emotional landscape of working for justpeace in a world that rewards division. From the shame that tells us we don't belong, to the anger packed with information, to the grief that opens us to something deeper, this episode maps the inner journey that peacebuilders rarely talk about in public. In this episode, we explore:• What makes someone a “dissident theologian” — and why it's not something you choose• Andrew's arrest with 97 faith leaders at a nonviolent ICE protest in Minneapolis• Neighbor love as an abolition movement against othering• The emotional layers of peace work: shame → anger → grief → merriment• Why anger is like fire, and can forge as well as destroy• Moral emergencies: when belonging itself is in danger• James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, Thich Nhat Hanh, and the wisdom traditions that light the path• How Elphaba from Wicked mirrors the real-world tension between righteous anger and destructive rage ABOUT OUR GUESTAndrew DeCort, PhD (University of Chicago), is a scholar of religious and political ethics, founder of the Institute for Faith and Flourishing, and co-founder of the Neighbor-Love Movement in Ethiopia, which has reached over 20 million people. He has taught at Wheaton College, Ethiopian Graduate School of Theology, and Bonn University. His latest book, Reviving the Golden Rule: How the Ancient Ethic of Neighbor Love Can Heal the World, is available now.Learn more: andrew-decort.comGet the book: https://www.ivpress.com/reviving-the-golden-rule?srsltid=AfmBOorvSFynljVabN7DZA3iZYHHnAQ-te7Lsymq_Mn5tisYELftIFUu TIMESTAMPS00:00 — Introduction02:42 — What makes a "dissident theologian"?05:42 — The Neighbor Love Movement and abolishing othering09:40 — Why othering persists: the benefits of division10:40 — The emotional landscape of peace work11:38 — Elphaba, Wicked, and righteous anger12:06 — Nonviolent direct action in Minneapolis and moral emergencies14:24 — Elphaba's green, shame, and James Baldwin15:21 — Shame as the chemical weapon of othering16:17 — What is a moral emergency?18:00 — Anger as fire: Audre Lorde, Richard Schwartz, and speaking FOR your anger19:00 — A ceremony of burning: the father's desk, the dissertation, the running shoes20:30 — The Fire Arts Center and George Floyd: blacksmiths as peacebuilders21:34 — From shame to anger to grief: the colors of peace work LISTEN & SUBSCRIBE🎧 Apple Podcasts: Third Things First on Apple Podcasts🎧 Spotify: Third Things First on Spotify📰 Substack: thewickedtruthsr.substack.com👻 Ghost: the-wicked-truth.ghost.io🔔 Subscribe to this channel for new episodes every other week!

What happens when you discover your church sits beside an enslaved burial ground? That the descendants of those enslaved people still live just blocks away?In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne Ross talks with Rev. Dr. Julia Robinson Moore about her courageous work telling the truth about slavery, lynching, and racial violence, while building a shared future rooted in peace and reconciliation.Dr. Moore, an ordained Presbyterian pastor and associate professor of religion at UNC Charlotte, shares how a childhood encounter with the Ku Klux Klan and later scholarly work on lynching led her into hands-on peacebuilding in Charlotte, North Carolina. She explains how her work with Preserving Sacred Spaces helps Black and White descendants come together around segregated and often unmarked burial grounds on former plantations and church properties.You’ll hear how her team uses neuroscience, spiritual practices like the Immanuel approach, and community-based design to help people build the emotional capacity to hold hard conversations, stay relational, and collaborate on memorials that “mark the unmarked.” Julia also describes a current project at Providence Presbyterian Church and Matthews-Murkland Presbyterian Church, where descendants are raising funds to complete a powerful memorial honoring graves that have been neglected for generations.​If you’re wondering how to confront a painful history without getting stuck in rivalry, shame, or despair, this conversation offers concrete practices, stories of hope, and a powerful “third thing”: sacred ground that calls divided communities back together.👉 Learn more and support Julia’s work: https://www.mooregraceministries.com📰 Sign up for the Third Things First newsletter! thewickedtruth.com 💡 Discover more about mimetic theory, and how it shapes Julia’s work: https://www.ravenfoundation.org/rene-girard/

Suzanne and Dr. Brian Ammons continue explore Wicked through the unique lens of sacred text, unearthing themes of hope, disillusionment, and the power of ancient wisdom. They also emphasize personal resonances with Elphaba's journey and the impact of cultural context on representation. Finally, they discuss the role of art in opening space for tough conversations and for reconnecting with our own hope and joy.

In this episode of Third Things First, Suzanne and Rev. Dr. Brian Ammons discuss the queer elements of Wicked, how its story pushes back against oppressive systems ... But also, how Elphaba's journey can help us claim the gift of otherness. They delve into "Defying Gravity" as a metaphor for rejecting old narratives and embracing otherness as a source of unique insight and perspective that still needs a strong community to flourish.

Dr. David Anderson Hooker joins Third Things First to explore narrative transformation, conflict transformation, peacebuilding, and racial reconciliation through the lens of stories vs. narratives, victim narratives, and the practice of mediating conflict through a “third thing”. Host Suzanne Ross talks with the peacebuilder, mediator, and theologian about why dialogue across difference is necessary, but not sufficient for real change in conflicted communities.Drawing on decades of work in racial reconciliation, community building, law, and ministry, Dr. Hooker explains how narratives—not just stories—shape our sense-making, our systems, and what we believe is possible. He distinguishes between stories (told in hindsight) and deeper narrative frames that can trap us in victimhood or open pathways to courage, inclusion, and transformation. You’ll hear powerful examples from his work in trauma healing, reflections on how competing Christian narratives fuel exclusion or belonging, and how “third things” like film or art safely surface our different ways of seeing.​If you care about peacebuilding, theology, social justice, or simply changing the story you live inside, this conversation offers language, practices, and hope! Follow Dr. Hooker, and the Wicked Truth, for more resources like this.Dr. Hooker's website, Counter Stories Consulting: https://counterstoriesconsulting.com/Purchase Dr. Hooker's book, "The Little Book of Transformative Community Conferencing": https://shorturl.at/dCcLvRead more about Dr. Hooker's work through his page at the KROC Institute at the University of Notre Dame: https://shorturl.at/RlzEKFollow us for more updates! http://thewickedtruth.com/And Don't forget to sign up for the Wicked Truth newsletter! https://thewickedtruthsr.substack.com/