Third Space Podcast

As we approach the anniversary of Pope Leo’s election, I spoke with Sr. Carino Hodder about his first year as the Supreme Pontiff. We talked about how Leo’s Augustian background may be shaping his governing style, as well as how we see him as the “Catechist Pope.” We also discuss some of the ways Leo has addressed abuse in the Church and some of our hopes and expectations for how he will continue.Sr. Carino Hodder is a Dominican Sister of Saint Joseph based in the New Forest in England. She assists her community with their apostolate of training catechists, primarily as a tutor on their Certificate in Catechesis. Since becoming a sister, she has worked as a First Holy Communion catechist, a Confirmation catechist, and a parish sister in a parish in London, as well as being involved in ongoing formation for all age groups. She also writes regularly for The Lamp magazine and has contributed to other publications including The Pillar, Plough, and Where Peter Is. She is also the author of ‘The Dignity of Woman in the Modern World’ published by the Catholic Truth Society and ‘Freedom Under Grace: Poverty, Chastity, and Obedience for Everyone’ which is forthcoming from Our Sunday Visitor.LINKSThe Dominican Sisters of St. Josephhttps://www.dominicansisters.net/Light of Truth: Live Catholic Formation for Everyonehttps://www.lightoftruth.uk/Message of the Holy Father Leo XIV, signed by Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin, on the occasion of the Second National Meeting of local representatives for the protection of minors and vulnerable adultshttps://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2026/04/16/260416c.htmlAddress the Pontifical Commission for the Protection of Minors (March 16, 2026)https://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/speeches/2026/march/documents/20260316-tutela-minori.htmlWords Matter: A guest post about vulnerability and abusehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/words-matterABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Last time I had Shaun on, we discussed St. John Henry Newman becoming a doctor of the Church. In this episode, we followed up that conversation to talk about Newman’s thoughts on personal conscience and the sensus fidei, and what that means for Pope Francis, and now Pope Leo’s, vision of a synodal Church. All of that led to a question about how a Catholic can navigate a conviction of their conscience that is out of line with Church teaching while still striving to be faithful to the Church.Shaun Blanchard is Senior Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Sydney campus. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils.LINKSShaun Blanchard:https://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardShaun Blanchard - Doctor John Henry Newmanhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/29-shaun-blanchard-doctor-john-henryTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgy:https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican II:https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids.Third Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

It was great last night talking with Sarah Carter and Shaun Blanchard about Pope Leo’s ongoing catechesis on the documents of Vatican IIHighlights included discussion about the senses fidei (what does it mean and is universal consensus even possible?), the baptismal priesthood, how we have misunderstood the meaning of “hierarchy,” a question about the Church’s perspective on ordaining gay men to the priesthood, and more! Sarah and I hope is to host live discussions every month following Leo’s catechesis. So keep an eye out for the next one.Go ahead and follow Sarah at Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly.Become a paid subscriber to Third Space here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribeSubscribe to Pope Leo Weekly here: https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/subscribe“As we approach the documents of Vatican Council II and rediscover their prophetic and contemporary relevance, we welcome the rich tradition of the life of the Church and, at the same time, we question ourselves about the present and renew our joy in running towards the world to bring it the Gospel of the kingdom of God, a kingdom of love, justice and peace.” Pope LeoThird Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

**This episode was recorded on March 25, a week before the Supreme Court ruled 8-1 against the Colorado law banning therapists from practicing conversion therapy on minorsDr. Julia Sadusky graciously joined me again on the podcast, this time to discuss the bad psychology and bad theology that underpins conversion therapy. Last year, Julia, along with a group of other Christian mental health professionals, submitted an amicus brief to the Supreme Court (in Chiles v. Salazar) defending a Colorado law that bans licensed mental health professionals from practicing conversion therapy on minors. I spoke with Julia about the origins of conversion therapy, the harm it causes, and how this court case could impact Christian mental health providers. Dr. Julia Sadusky is an author, speaker, and licensed psychologist. She owns Lux Counseling and Consulting in Littleton, CO., where she offers individual, family, and couples therapy in addition to consultations for individuals and families around sexuality and gender. She also serves as a ministry educator, offering trainings and consultations to counseling centers and faith-based institutions on sexuality, gender identity, mental health, trauma-informed care, and the intersection of sexuality, gender, and theology. Other areas of focus include work with those experiencing complex trauma and eating disorders.Dr. Sadusky’s most recent books are Start Talking to Your Kids About Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics and Talking with Your Teen About Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics (Ave Maria Press). Dr. Sadusky has coauthored two other books, including Emerging Gender Identities: Understanding the Diverse Experiences of Today’s Youth (Brazos Press) and Gender Identity & Faith: Clinical Postures, Tools and Case Studies for Client-Centered Care (Intervarsity Press) with Mark Yarhouse, PsyD., and contributed to a four views book titled, Understanding Transgender Identities: 4 Views (Baker Academic).LINKSJulia Sadusky’s Website: https://www.juliasadusky.com/Conversion Truth For Families website:https://www.conversiontruthforfamilies.org/free-guideJulia Sadusky’s Amicus Brief:https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/24/24-539/370705/20250826104808419_24-539%20Chiles%20Amicus%20Brief.pdfOnline Course: Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics:https://talkingtoyourteencourse.com/**Coupon code: Themiddlespace10 for 10% off the course for parents of teensBook: Emerging Gender Identities: Understanding the Diverse Experiences of Today’s Youth:https://www.amazon.com/Emerging-Gender-Identities-Understanding-Experiences/dp/1587434342/Book: Gender Identity and Faith: Clinical Postures, Tools, and Case Studies for Client-Centered Care:https://www.amazon.com/Gender-Identity-Faith-Clinical-Client-Centered/dp/0830841814/Book: Emerging Sexual Identities: Navigating the Landscape with Today’s Youth (A Christian Guide to Understanding and Ministering to LGBTQ+ Youth):https://www.amazon.com/Emerging-Sexual-Identities-Understanding-Ministering/dp/1587436442Julia Sadusky’s Substack:https://drsadusky.substack.com/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

 In the work I do with people who have experienced harm and abuse in the Church, a question that often comes up is: Why are you still Catholic?Every person responds to that question in their own way. Maybe the most common response I hear is that it’s the sacraments, the Eucharist, that’s the thing that people feel keeps them connected to Catholicism.But my answer to that question isn’t the Eucharist or the liturgy. Maybe the biggest thing keeping me Catholic is the Church’s teaching on the infinite dignity of every human person. Not the teaching itself necessarily, but the worldview, the moral vision, that comes out of it.I wanted to share my love of this teaching, so for the past several weeks I have released a series of videos unpacking the prophetic and wildly unrealistic proclamation that every single human being has infinite dignity. I’m publishing these talks all together now into one podcast episode.These talks will include discussion of the Church’s teaching on the universal destination of goods, the rights of immigrants, the death penalty, spiritual abuse, the preferential option for the poor, and more.LINKS:Watch the video series here:https://www.youtube.com/@CatholicThirdSpace/playlistsDignitas Infinitahttps://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_ddf_doc_20240402_dignitas-infinita_en.htmlFratelli Tuttihttps://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/encyclicals/documents/papa-francesco_20201003_enciclica-fratelli-tutti.htmlDilexi Tehttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/apost_exhortations/documents/20251004-dilexi-te.htmlABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

It was a joy yesterday meeting with Sarah Carter and Sr Carino Hodder OP to talk about Pope Leo’s ongoing catechesis on the documents of Vatican II.Highlights included discussion about what it means for Scripture to be read in and for the Church; the Church as mystery and sacrament; the human and divine aspects of the Church; and the unity and diversity of the People of God. (It also seems worthy to mention that the resident Dominican breaks the stereotype and references Augustine ceaselessly while, if I recall correctly, not mentioning Aquinas once.)Sarah and I hope is to host live discussions every month following Leo’s catechesis. So keep an eye out for the next one.Go ahead and follow Sarah at Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly. She also put together a Leo Live Reading Companion.Become a paid subscriber to Third Space here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribeSubscribe to Pope Leo Weekly here: https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/subscribe“As we approach the documents of Vatican Council II and rediscover their prophetic and contemporary relevance, we welcome the rich tradition of the life of the Church and, at the same time, we question ourselves about the present and renew our joy in running towards the world to bring it the Gospel of the kingdom of God, a kingdom of love, justice and peace.” Pope LeoThird Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I had a wonderful conversation with Anne Carpenter about Hans Urs von Balthasar, power, and vulnerability. Back in January, Anne had an essay in Commonweal titled, Raising the Bastions: Why the American Catholic right turned against Balthasar. In it, she was able to name the root sickness that I’ve seen and experienced in conservative Catholic spaces in the US, as well as in the institutional Church. Anne is insightful and profound, I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did.Anne Carpenter is a professor in the Department of Theological Studies at Saint Louis University. She is the author of Theo-Poetics: Hans Urs von Balthasar and the Risk of Art and Being (University of Notre Dame Press) and Nothing Gained Is Eternal: A Theology of Tradition (Fortress Press).LINKS:Raising the Bastions: Why the American Catholic right turned against Balthasarhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/carpenter-anne-balthasar-catholic-rightABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I had a wonderful discussion with Dr. Julia Sadusky about the importance, difficulties, and challenges of talking with your kids about sex. More specifically, we talked about the harm caused by sexual shame, how to avoid passing shame onto our kids, and how to talk about sexuality in a way that honors dignity and conscience.Dr. Julia Sadusky is an author, speaker, and licensed psychologist. She owns Lux Counseling and Consulting in Littleton, CO., where she offers individual, family, and couples therapy in addition to consultations for individuals and families around sexuality and gender. She also serves as a ministry educator, offering trainings and consultations to counseling centers and faith-based institutions on sexuality, gender identity, mental health, trauma-informed care, and the intersection of sexuality, gender, and theology. Other areas of focus include work with those experiencing complex trauma and eating disorders.Dr. Sadusky’s most recent books are Start Talking to Your Kids About Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics and Talking with Your Teen About Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics (Ave Maria Press). Dr. Sadusky has coauthored two other books, including Emerging Gender Identities: Understanding the Diverse Experiences of Today’s Youth (Brazos Press) and Gender Identity & Faith: Clinical Postures, Tools and Case Studies for Client-Centered Care (Intervarsity Press) with Mark Yarhouse, PsyD., and contributed to a four views book titled, Understanding Transgender Identities: 4 Views (Baker Academic).LINKSDr. Julia Sadusky’s Website: https://www.juliasadusky.com/Online Course: Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics:https://talkingtoyourteencourse.com/**Coupon code: Themiddlespace10 for 10% off the course for parents of teensBook: Start Talking to Your Kids about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics:https://www.amazon.com/Start-Talking-Your-Kids-about/dp/1646802225Book: Talking with Your Teen about Sex: A Practical Guide for Catholics:https://www.amazon.com/Talking-Your-Teen-about-Sex/dp/1646802241/Dr. Julia Sadusky’s Substack:https://drsadusky.substack.com/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Sarah Carter and I had a great conversation last night about Pope Leo’s ongoing catechesis on the documents of Vatican II. We talked about God’s desires for us: to become human, to speak in our language, and to make us his friends. We also discussed the development of doctrine and how to interpret scripture.Our hope is to host live discussions following this catechesis every month. So keep an eye out for the next one once we schedule it. The live discussions will be available for paid subscribers of either Third Space or Pope Leo Weekly. (though I think last night I did something wrong and it was available to everyone! But thank you all for showing up, there were 150 viewers!) Then the recording will be made available to everyone in the days following.Go ahead and follow Sarah at Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly. She also put together a Leo Live Reading Companion.Become a paid subscriber to Third Space here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribeSubscribe to Pope Leo Weekly here: https://popeleoweekly.substack.com/subscribe“As we approach the documents of Vatican Council II and rediscover their prophetic and contemporary relevance, we welcome the rich tradition of the life of the Church and, at the same time, we question ourselves about the present and renew our joy in running towards the world to bring it the Gospel of the kingdom of God, a kingdom of love, justice and peace.” Pope LeoThird Space is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I spoke with Rhonda Miska, a lay minister working at a parish in the Twin Cities. A couple of weeks ago, I received an email from Rhonda introducing herself, thanking me for the podcast, and sharing with me some of her experiences working as a lay minister in the Twin Cities right now. She shared how on her to-do list was to promote the Lenten fish fry, and another was to help a mother vulnerable to deportation find someone to take care of her child if she’s deported. My heart was crushed as I read her email. And I immediately asked if she would be on the podcast to share what life is like on the ground ministering in Minneapolis. I’m so grateful that Rhonda said yes and that we had this conversation.I once again postponed my normal Monday morning release to today so that I could publish this conversation. We recorded this episode last night, Monday February 9thRhonda Miska is a preacher, writer, spiritual director, and lay ecclesial minister. Since 2020, she has served as the Director of Communications at the Church of St. Timothy in Blaine, a north suburb of Minneapolis, Minnesota. Rhonda holds a master's degree from the Boston College School of Theology and Ministry and is currently pursuing a Doctor of Ministry in Preaching degree from the Aquinas Institute of Theology.Catholic Community Foundation of Minnesota: Minnesota Catholic Relief Fundwww.ccf-mn.org/reliefRhonda’s reflection on the ICOM Vigil For Immigrant Justicehttps://www.morecommunity.org/blog-01-21-26As ICE operations rattle Minneapolis, Catholic women step forwardhttps://religionnews.com/2026/02/09/as-ice-operations-rattle-minneapolis-catholic-women-step-forward/Inside the Vatican podcast: Minneapolis Bishop on ICE, immigration and Pope Leohttps://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/minneapolis-bishop-on-ice-immigration-and-pope-leo/id1439165420?i=1000748598215ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I spoke with Jenn Morson about her recent article titled, “His Name is Liam.” which juxtaposed the March for Life in Washington DC with the way so many pro-life Catholics are defending the horrific violations of human dignity happening by ICE in Minnesota. We held space for each other, and hopefully for listeners, in the feelings of betrayal and isolation we’re feeling watching people in the pro-life movement—who taught us about human dignity—defend state violence. I postponed my normal Monday morning release so that I could publish this conversation today. We recorded this episode last night, Monday, January 26th.Jenn Morson is a freelance writer and investigative journalist. Jenn has written for the New York Times, the Washington Post, TIME, US Catholic, and more. Her reporting has focused specifically on the clergy abuse crisis, specifically on issues present at her alma mater, Franciscan University of Steubenville.LINKS“His name is Liam.”https://jennmorson.substack.com/p/his-name-is-liamDestiny Herndon-De La Rosa at New Wave Feministshttps://www.newwavefeminists.com/Donate to La Vina Community Church in Minnesotahttps://iglesiavina.org/home%2FinicioABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

A monologue where I end up reading large passages from Martin Luther King’s Letter from the Birmingham Jail.“But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If the church of today does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authentic ring, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. I meet young people every day whose disappointment with the church has risen to outright disgust.”-MLK, Letter from the Birmingham Jail“When injustices have occurred on both sides, it is important to take into clear account whether they were equally grave or in any way comparable. Violence perpetrated by the state, using its structures and power, is not on the same level as that perpetrated by particular groups.”-Pope Francis, Fratelli Tutti Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this throwback episode from a year ago, I talked with my good friend and mentor, Monica Pope, about hope. We began by talking about the role of the catechist before launching into a catechesis about hope in light of the theme of the 2025 Jubilee Year, “Pilgrims of Hope.” All of that set up a more personal discussion about what hope actually looks like in our concrete lives. We proposed that hope is really only born out of a “third space” where the reality of all the bad is accepted—not bypassed—while holding onto the belief that God is good.Monica Pope has been doing evangelizing catechesis for 30 years in the Catholic Church. She has worked in Michigan parishes as Director of Catechesis, RCIA leader, and Director of Discipleship Ministries. Monica has created family catechesis programs in several parishes; she’s formed many dedicated and gifted Catholic disciples to be effective catechists. She’s written and led hundreds of retreats, presented for thousands of people, ranging from First Communicants and their parents, to senior residents at assisted living facilities, to employees of diocesan chancelleries. These days she’s a master catechist for a catholic media company. And cofounder of Practical Kerygma.LINKS:Practical Kerygmahttps://www.practicalkerygma.com/Spes Non Confundit - Bull of Indiction of the Ordinary Jubilee of the Year 2025https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/bulls/documents/20240509_spes-non-confundit_bolla-giubileo2025.htmlABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I talked with Dr. Shaun Blanchard about Pope Leo declaring St. John Henry Newman to be a doctor of the Church. We discuss Shaun’s role in that official process. We also discuss Newman’s theology of development and how it’s important for the Church today.Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils.He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).LINKSShaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this throwback episode from 2023, Paul and Dominic have a conversation with Shaun Blanchard about Vatican II and the development of doctrine. Shaun offers a brief history of the Church’s understanding about how doctrine develops over the past few centuries and how that culminated at Vatican II. Then we discuss how the Church’s teaching is not rigid or static but that the Church is always in a process of reform. As Dei Verbum says, “For as the centuries succeed one another, the Church constantly moves forward toward the fullness of divine truth until the words of God reach their complete fulfillment in her.”Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils.He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).LINKSShaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I’m excited to share a conversation I had with Amy Grey over on her Youtube channel, Into the Grey, where she interviewed me about the Church’s understanding of conscience. We discuss abuse of conscience as well as the interplay between personal conscience and the Church’s teaching authority.Amy Grey lives in the midwest with her husband Thomas and four children. She was raised in a rich Mennonite tradition, converting to Catholicism at age 13. She seeks a synthesis of faith and life, as well as heart and mind. Amy is the author of The Cognitive Resonance Workbook: A Practical Guide to Strengthening the Connection Between Heart and Mind.LINKSInto the Greyhttps://www.youtube.com/@Amy-GreyThe Cognitive Resonance Workbook: A Practical Guide to Strengthening the Connection Between Heart and Mindhttps://reasonablediscourse.org/Living Solidarityhttps://livingsolidarity.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Sarah Carter and I hosted a livestream conversation on Substack last week about Pope Leo’s Apostolic Exhortation, Dilexi Te. This was a pretty freewheeling conversation that ranged from giving an overview of the document, sharing our personal reactions to it, and taking listener questions. I had a lot of fun being a part of this and I hope you enjoy listening!Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’LINKSRecovering Catholichttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/Pope Leo Weeklyhttps://popeleoweekly.substack.com/Dilexi Tehttps://www.vatican.va/content/leo-xiv/en/apost_exhortations/documents/20251004-dilexi-te.htmlLiving Solidarityhttps://livingsolidarity.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I spoke with Sr. Danielle Victoria Lussier and Sr. Theresa Aletheia Noble from the Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness. We discussed their new audio documentary, Descent Into Light, about adult abuse in the Church. Sr. Theresa and Sr. Danielle have been real sources of consolation for me over the past couple of years, and it’s such an honor to have them on the podcast.The Sisters of the Little Way of Beauty, Truth, and Goodness, are a private association of the faithful intending to become a religious institute. As religious sisters and consecrated women, they live a mission of listening and solidarity with people on the fringes of the Church, especially those who have been wounded, scandalized, or abused by members of the Church.LINKSSisters of the Little Wayhttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/Descent Into Light podcasthttps://www.sistersofthelittleway.com/podcastSpiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5eABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Sarah Carter and I went into this conversation ready to talk about her excellent article, “The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Years: Missionary discipleship isn’t supposed to feel like this.” And then we spent the first half of our time discussing deconstruction and Henri de Lubac! Sarah is insightful and vulnerable, it was a joy to have this conversation with her. I hope you enjoy it.Sarah Carter lives in St. Paul MN with her husband and three children. She is the author of Recovering Catholic and Pope Leo Weekly on Substack. Sarah has a masters degree in theology from the Saint Paul Seminary in St. Paul, MN with specialization in Catholic social teaching and Pope Francis’ encyclical Laudato si’LINKSSarah’s article: The Evangelization Mistake I Made For Yearshttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/p/thats-not-what-missionary-discipleRecovering Catholichttps://recoveringcatholic.substack.com/Pope Leo Weeklyhttps://popeleoweekly.substack.com/Ann Yeong’s podcast: Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleshiphttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/Spiritual Abuse Workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-b5eABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Today, I’m sharing a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Ann Yeong, for her podcast, Becoming Me, about spiritual abuse within the context of evangelization. We talk about how a distorted image of God can lead to a distorted evangelization where we “proclaim God in a way contrary to God himself.” We also discuss the critical role of personal integrity and the healthy use of authority for those in positions of spiritual leadership. It was so good to have this conversation with Ann. I hope you enjoy listening.Ann Yeong is the Founder of Integrō Formation and the host of the Becoming Me podcast. Ann has over 15 years of experience in human and spiritual formation in the Catholic Church in Singapore. She served as Director, Youth & Young Adults Office in the Church of St Mary of the Angels and started the first parish-based Office for New Evangelisation in Singapore in 2012. In 2014, Ann left full-time parish employment to focus on speaking about the interior life and meeting individuals & small groups for spiritual conversation and formation. Ann is particularly passionate about: the lived experience of complex trauma and spiritual/religious trauma’s impact on our relationship with God; the existential crisis of spiritual midlife ‘deconstruction’ that often happens as an integral part of healing and truth-seeking; and developing a mature, trauma-informed Christ-centered contemplative spiritualityLINKSIntegrō Formationhttps://www.integroformation.com/Spiritual Abuse in Evangelisation and Discipleshiphttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/spiritual-abuse-in-evangelisation-and-discipleship-with-paul-fahey/Reclaiming Our Dignity: Healing from Spiritual Abusehttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/reclaiming-our-dignity-healing-from-spiritual-abuse-with-paul-fahey/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church’s Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I talked with Colleen Dulle about her new book, “Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter.” The book is part journalism and part spiritual memoir. Colleen’s personal stories were deeply genuine in a way that invited me to reflect on my own experiences. In this conversation we talk about what it was like for her to write such a vulnerable memoir. Then we dive into topics like Jean Vanier, the canonization of Carlo Acutis, and how children can shape a person’s experience of God. It’s always great to interview Colleen, I hope you enjoy our conversation.Colleen Dulle is the Vatican Correspondent at America and co-hosts the "Inside the Vatican" podcast. She contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Colleen is also the author of Struck Down, Not Destroyed: Keeping the Faith as a Vatican Reporter (Image, 2025).LINKSLiving Solidaritywww.livingsolidarity.comColleen’s Bookhttps://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/742516/struck-down-not-destroyed-by-colleen-dulle/Colleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseShaun Blanchard & Colleen Dulle - Pope Leo XIVhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/bonus-episode-shaun-blanchard-andColleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Criseshttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritualColleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Popehttps://www.popefrancisgeneration.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trustingABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comLIVING SOLIDARITY: Living Solidarity upholds the infinite dignity of every person by addressing the reality of spiritual abuse and abuse of conscience in the Catholic Church. Living Solidarity helps to build a Church of integrity and solidarity by accompanying survivors of spiritual abuse with trauma-informed life coaching; equipping Church leaders and institutions to confront systemic harm; and creating resources grounded in psychological research and the Church's Social Teaching. Visit livingsolidarity.com to learn more, to connect with Paul, to schedule individual life coaching, or to invite Paul to speak or consult with your community, parish, seminary, or diocese.ABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey is currently a professional counselor, retreat leader, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He provides counseling for those who have been spiritually abused and creates resources for Church leaders to better safeguard their communities against all forms of abuse. He previously worked for eight years as the Director of Religious Education at a Catholic parish. Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife, Kristina, and their five kids. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This is the first episode of Season Two! And I’m excited to be talking with Sara Larson!I interviewed Sara about a year and a half ago for the Pope Francis Generation podcast to hear about the mission of Awake. A lot has happened since then! I wanted to interview her again to talk about some exciting things Awake is doing. More specifically, I wanted her to be on the first episode of Season Two to have a conversation about what it means to engage in the Church with a preferential option for survivors because that’s at the heart of my mission with Third Space.Sara Larson is the executive director of Awake, an independent Catholic nonprofit organization working for awakening, transformation, and healing from the wounds of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church. She also lifts up the voices and stories of abuse survivors in her personal blog, In Spirit and Truth.LINKSAwake’s website:https://www.awakecommunity.orgSara’s In Spirit and Truth blog:https://inspiritandtruth.substack.comSara’s talk for the International Safeguarding Conference:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkhjJsmrt94Pope Leo XIV’s Letter to Awake:https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/pope-leo-responds-to-letters-from-survivorsABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I had recorded all of Season One before the conclave, but I didn’t want to wait until the fall to talk about Pope Leo. So this is a bonus round-table discussion with two previous guests: Shaun Blanchard and Colleen Dulle. We discuss a variety of topics including how Leo XIV may address Catholic Social Teaching, the abuse crisis, synodality, and the role of women in the Church. I enjoyed this conversation a lot, I hope you do too.Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils. Shaun is the author of several books, including Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023) which he cowrote with Stephen BullivantColleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.LINKS:Colleen Dulle - Real Reform or Just Vibes?https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/8-colleen-dulle-real-reform-or-justColleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comColleen’s Linktreehttps://linktr.ee/colleendulleSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseShaun Blanchard - Development and Fundamentalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/3-shaun-blanchard-development-andShaun Blanchardhttps://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgyhttps://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican IIhttps://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

 This is part two of a two part conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood. In this first part, we discussed a recent lecture that Jordan presented about the development of the Church's teachings on Hell, as well as what he proposed for possible future developments. The second part of our conversation focuses on how a “massa damnata” position on Hell distorts the character of God and his goodness while also leading to a culture of fear and spiritual coercion.If you haven't listened to part one, I would encourage you to go back and listen to that now before you listen to part two.Also, this is the last episode of this season. I'll be taking the summer off. I will have new episodes being released in the fall. Thanks so much for listening.Jordan Daniel Wood is Assistant Professor of Theology at Belmont University, in Nashville, TN. He's the author of The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (Notre Dame Press, 2022), and is nearing completion of the first complete English translation of Maximus's letters. He lives outside of Nashville with his lovely wife and four daughters.LINKS:Jordan’s “The Future of Hell” serieshttps://jordandanielwood.substack.com/p/the-future-of-hellPope Francis Generation podcast episode: Jordan Daniel Wood - Hell and Universalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/jordan-daniel-wood-hell-and-universalismABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

 This is part one of a two-part conversation with Jordan Daniel Wood. In this first part, we discuss a recent lecture that Jordan presented about the development of the Church's teachings on Hell, as well as what he proposes for possible future developments. The second part of our conversation focuses on how a “massa damnata” position on Hell distorts the character of God and his goodness while also leading to a culture of fear and spiritual coercion.Jordan Daniel Wood is Assistant Professor of Theology at Belmont University, in Nashville, TN. He's the author of The Whole Mystery of Christ: Creation as Incarnation in Maximus Confessor (Notre Dame Press, 2022), and is nearing completion of the first complete English translation of Maximus's letters. He lives outside of Nashville with his lovely wife and four daughters.LINKS:Jordan’s “The Future of Hell” serieshttps://jordandanielwood.substack.com/p/the-future-of-hellPope Francis Generation podcast episode: Jordan Daniel Wood - Hell and Universalismhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/jordan-daniel-wood-hell-and-universalismABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I’m grateful to share this conversation I had with Mark Joseph Williams. Mark shares his story of healing and recovery from clerical abuse, addiction, and trauma. He talks about how God worked in his life in the midst of trauma and how it was through the Catholic Church, the place where he experienced harm, that he also experienced healing. Mark also shares about where he would like to see reform in the Church regarding safeguarding and justice for survivors.Mark and I recorded this conversation during Holy Week, just a few days before the news of Pope Francis’s death.Mark Joseph Williams is a forensic psychological clinician with an MS in social work from Columbia. A clerical abuse survivor, he co-founded Global Collaborative, a survivor led organization, and represents the Archdiocese of Newark as Special Advisor. He also serves on the North American Safeguarding Committee of the US Conference of Catholic Bishops. He and his wife, Karen, have four grown children and seven grandchildren. He is the author of Torrent of Grace: A Catholic Survivor's Healing Journey after Clergy Abuse.LINKS:Torrent of Grace: A Catholic Survivor's Healing Journey after Clergy Abusehttps://www.amazon.com/Torrent-Grace-Catholic-Survivors-Healing/dp/1626985960Field Hospital podcast: Mark Joseph Williamshttps://uscatholic.org/articles/202204/field-hospital-mark-joseph-williams/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Today, I wanted to share a conversation I had a couple weeks ago with Ann Yeong for her podcast, Becoming Me. After attending one of my workshops, Ann invited me on her podcast to talk about the Church’s teaching on human dignity, spiritual abuse, and navigating the Church in the midst of religious trauma. It was so good to have this conversation with Ann. I hope you enjoy listening.Ann Yeong is the Founder of Integrō Formation and the host of the Becoming Me podcast. Ann has over 15 years of experience in human and spiritual formation in the Catholic Church in Singapore. She served as Director, Youth & Young Adults Office in the Church of St Mary of the Angels and started the first parish-based Office for New Evangelisation in Singapore in 2012.In 2014, Ann left full-time parish employment to focus on speaking about the interior life and meeting individuals & small groups for spiritual conversation and formation. Ann is particularly passionate about: the lived experience of complex trauma and spiritual/religious trauma's impact on our relationship with God; the existential crisis of spiritual midlife 'deconstruction' that often happens as an integral part of healing and truth-seeking; and developing a mature, trauma-informed Christ-centered contemplative spiritualityLINKS:Integrō Formationhttps://www.integroformation.com/Becoming Me podcasthttps://www.becomingmepodcast.com/episodes/Watch this episode on Ann’s Youtube channelhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCPH12XvCoMABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In today’s episode, I had a great conversation with Dr. Joseph Stuart about a kind of obscure document from Pope Francis from last year about the renewal of the study of Church history. Joseph and I talked about the ways that ideologies within the Church, both progressive and traditional, misuse history for their own agendas. We also discuss the need for the Church to be honest about its own history of oppression and opposition to human dignity.Joseph T. Stuart, Ph.D., is Full Professor of History and Fellow of Catholic Studies at the University of Mary in Bismarck, North Dakota. His research and publications concern the life and work of cultural historian Christopher Dawson, the cultural history of the Great War, and the Enlightenment of the eighteenth century. He is the author of three books: Christopher Dawson: A Cultural Mind in the Age of the Great War; The Church and the Age of Reformations (1350–1650): Martin Luther, the Renaissance, and the Council of Trent; and Rethinking the Enlightenment: Faith in the Age of Reason.LINKSLetter of His Holiness Pope Francis on the Renewal of the Study of Church Historyhttps://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/letters/2024/documents/20241121-lettera-storia-chiesa.htmlRethinking the Enlightenment: Faith in the Age of Reasonhttps://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Enlightenment-Faith-Age-Reason/dp/1622828224Pope Francis Generation podcast episode with Joseph Stuart - Engaging with Secular Culturehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/joseph-stuart-engaging-with-secular ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Today, I wanted to share a conversation I had a few weeks ago with Sean Mitchell over on his Youtube channel, Apostolate of the Ear. Sean reached out to me a few months ago to see if I’d be interested in discussing Christian Universalism and explore my belief that a person can be within the bounds of Catholic orthodoxy and have a sure and certain hope that God will save everyone. And I was very happy to agree. Sean was a gracious interviewer and I had a great time talking with him.LINKSApostolate of the Earhttps://www.youtube.com/@apostolateoftheear3719Details for my Spring 2025 spiritual abuse workshophttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-627ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This is Part Two of a two-part conversation with Dr. Marcus Mescher. In the first part of the conversation we discussed Liberation Theology, its origins, development, and relationship with the universal Church. We also spent time reflecting on the life and work of the Dominican theologian, Gustavo Gutiérrez. In Part-Two, we dive into the Church’s teaching on the preferential options for the poor, exploring its roots in Scripture as well as its relationship to the Ordo Amoris. From there we discuss the importance of the Church having a “preferential options for survivors” and what living that out could look like on an institutional and personal level. I really loved this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well.If you haven’t listened to Part One, I would encourage you to start with that episode.LINKS:Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/“Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abuse” PFG podcast with Marcus Mescherhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clericalThe Liberation Theology PodcastEp. 5: Catholic Social Teaching and Liberation Theology with Marcus Mescher, Pt. 1https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-5-catholic-social-teaching-and-liberation-theology/id1551431636?i=1000511104797Accountability, Healing, and Trust: Interdisciplinary Reflections for Ministry in the Midst of the Catholic Sex Abuse Crisishttps://litpress.org/Products/8897/Accountability-Healing-and-TrustAwake Bloghttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blogABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This is Part One of a two-part conversation with Dr. Marcus Mescher. In the first part of the conversation we discuss Liberation Theology, its origins, development, and relationship with the universal Church. We also spend time reflecting on the life and work of the Dominican theologian, Gustavo Gutiérrez. In Part-Two, we will dove into the Church’s teaching on the preferential options for the poor, exploring its roots in Scripture as well as its relationship to the Ordo Amoris. From there we discussed the importance of the Church having a “preferential options for survivors” and what living that out could look like on an institutional and personal level. I really loved this conversation and I hope you enjoy it as well.Dr. Marcus Mescher is associate professor of Christian ethics. He holds a Ph.D. from Boston College and specializes in Catholic social teaching and moral formation. His research and writing concentrate in the following areas: human dignity and rights; social/environmental justice for the global common good; how moral agency is impacted by cultural context and digital technology; the moral dimensions of friendship; sexual justice and the ethics of marriage and family life; liberation theology and inclusive solidarity; healing the psychological, spiritual, social, and moral harm caused by clergy abuse. Dr. Mescher has written dozens of popular and academic articles. His current research and writing focus on mental health and moral injury.LINKS:Measuring & Exploring Moral Injury Caused by Clergy Sexual Abusehttps://www.xavier.edu/moral-injury-report/“Moral Injury and Clerical Sexual Abuse” PFG podcast with Marcus Mescherhttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/marcus-mescher-moral-injury-and-clericalThe Liberation Theology PodcastEp. 5: Catholic Social Teaching and Liberation Theology with Marcus Mescher, Pt. 1https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ep-5-catholic-social-teaching-and-liberation-theology/id1551431636?i=1000511104797Accountability, Healing, and Trust: Interdisciplinary Reflections for Ministry in the Midst of the Catholic Sex Abuse Crisishttps://litpress.org/Products/8897/Accountability-Healing-and-TrustAwake Bloghttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blogABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I spoke with Esther Harber. Esther is the Survivor Care Coordinator for Awake and a survivors of sexual assault by a Catholic priest. In this discussion she shares her own story and how her experiences of harm have impacted her faith. Esther has maybe the biggest heart of anyone I’ve ever met. And her capacity to be present with others and hold their stories is profound. I’m so grateful to share our conversation.*A trigger warning that this episode inclues conversation about sexual assaultEsther Harber is a devoted Catholic living with her husband and daughters in Ohio. She is a convert from a fundamentalist Protestant denomination, and was blessed to enter the Catholic Church in 2006. The Lord placed a passion in her heart for sharing the faith, and she spent the better part of her twenties as a lay missionary in New York City. She was also in religious life for a year. During her time as a missionary she experienced spiritual abuse, grooming, and sexual assault by a Catholic priest. After a long period of healing, she felt the Lord calling her to walk with other victim-survivors and to bring light to this crisis in the Church. Esther is the Survivor Care Coordinator for Awake.LINKS:Esther’s Survivor Story:https://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/esther-harber/Contact Esther or Awake:https://www.awakecommunity.org/contactABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I had a wonderful conversation with Sr. Carino Hodder from the The Dominican Sisters of St. Joseph. I first met Sr. Carino when she participated in one of my online workshops about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church. Since then we’ve had several conversations about safeguarding, abuse of conscience, and the role of the catechist. I’ve really valued her perspective and insights. She has recently written a couple of articles on those topics, which seemed like a great excuse to have her on the podcast to talk about vulnerability, conscience, and the role of the catechist.Sr. Carino Hodder is a Dominican Sister of Saint Joseph based in the New Forest in England. She assists her community with their apostolate of training catechists, primarily as a tutor on their Certificate in Catechesis. Since becoming a sister, she has worked as a First Holy Communion catechist, a Confirmation catechist, and a parish sister in a parish in London, as well as being involved in ongoing formation for all age groups. She also writes regularly for The Lamp magazine and has contributed to other publications including Where Peter Is, The Pillar, and Plough.LINKS:The Dominican Sisters of St. Josephhttps://www.dominicansisters.net/Light of Truth: Live Catholic Formation for Everyonehttps://www.lightoftruth.uk/Freedom, Safety and Vulnerabilityhttps://wherepeteris.com/freedom-safety-and-vulnerability/Vulnerability and the Conscience in Catechesishttps://wherepeteris.com/vulnerability-and-the-conscience-in-catechesis/Substitute for Virtue: On the exercise of charisms without gracehttps://thelampmagazine.com/blog/substitute-virtueABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this first episode of 2025, I talked with my good friend and mentor, Monica Pope, about hope. We began by talking about the role of the catechist before launching into a catechesis about hope in light of the theme of the 2025 Jubilee Year, “Pilgrims of Hope.” All of that set up a more personal discussion about what hope actually looks like in our concrete lives. We proposed that hope is really only born out of a “third space” where the reality of all the bad is accepted—not bypassed—while holding onto the belief that God is good. Talking with Monica is always a consolation for me, I hope that’s your experience as well.Monica Pope has been doing evangelizing catechesis for 30 years in the Catholic Church. She has worked in Michigan parishes as Director of Catechesis, RCIA leader, and Director of Discipleship Ministries. Monica has created family catechesis programs in several parishes; she’s formed many dedicated and gifted Catholic disciples to be effective catechists. She’s written and led hundreds of retreats, presented for thousands of people, ranging from First Communicants and their parents, to senior residents at assisted living facilities, to employees of diocesan chancelleries. These days she’s a master catechist for a catholic media company. And cofounder of Practical Kerygma.LINKS:Practical Kerygma:https://www.practicalkerygma.com/ Spes Non Confundit - Bull of Indiction of the Ordinary Jubilee of the Year 2025:https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/bulls/documents/20240509_spes-non-confundit_bolla-giubileo2025.htmlDetails for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here:https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I spoke with Natalie Pucillo. She recently wrote a couple of articles about her visit to Rome during the final meeting of the Synod on Synodality. Her reflections were so good, capturing both the harm and the hope she experienced. So asked if she would be on the podcast to talk about those articles. Specifically, I wanted to know her perspective on the synod and reform in the Church. And I wanted to hear about her experiences of hope. It was a wonderful conversation.Natalie Pucillo is currently a Master of Divinity student at Loyola University Chicago’s Institute of Pastoral Studies, where she integrates her interests in Catholic liturgy and sacramental theology, ecclesiology, and trauma-informed pastoral practices. She was a cradle Catholic and served for over 10 years as a professional church musician in various Washington, DC-area churches. She now works in higher education student support, and currently serves on the Leadership and Prayer teams for Awake. As a survivor of abuse by a lay minister in the Catholic Church, Natalie is passionate about spreading awareness about the spiritual effects of abuse by lay leaders, and working for accountability and transformation in our Church.LINKSWord Made Flesh: Reflections on the Synod on Synodalityhttps://allthatishidden.substack.com/p/word-made-fleshA Survivor Visits Romehttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/a-survivor-visits-romeABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.Details for my Winter 2025 spiritual abuse workshop are here: https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/spiritual-abuse-workshop-7b6SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I had a wonderful conversation with Colleen Dulle, co-host of the Inside the Vatican podcast, about the Synod on Synodality. I was pretty disappointed when the synod finished and felt like, instead of real change, we just got vibes. Colleen felt differently. So I wanted to ask her about her time in Rome during the final synod meeting, and the final synod document, and where she sees signs of real reform. As always, it was great talking with her.Colleen Dulle is an associate editor at America Media, where she co-hosts the weekly news podcast Inside the Vatican. She writes and edits Vatican news and analysis articles for America Magazine and contributes to Sacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform blog. Her forthcoming book, Struck Down, Not Destroyed, on the spiritual crises that result from reporting on the endemic problems of the Catholic Church, will be published by Penguin Random House in Summer 2025.LINKSColleen’s Websitehttps://www.colleendulle.comColleen’s Linktreehttps://linktr.ee/colleendulleSacred Heart University's "Go, Rebuild My House" church reform bloghttps://sacredheartuniversity.typepad.com/go_rebuild_my_houseColleen Dulle - Fr. Rupnik and Trusting the Popehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-fr-rupnik-and-trustingColleen Dulle - Synodality and Spiritual Criseshttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/colleen-dulle-synodality-and-spiritualABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

A few weeks ago I was invited to be a speaker for a Courageous Conversation event hosted by Awake, A Catholic non-profit whose mission "is to awaken our community to the full reality of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, work for transformation, and foster healing for all who have been wounded."Courageous Conversations is an online speaker series designed to “build community, deepen understanding, encourage conversation, and inspire personal action in response to the complex issue of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church.”Last month’s topic was titled "Cultivating a Gospel Response to Trauma" nd was about how to foster trauma-informed church communities and spaces "that are sensitive to the needs of survivors of sexual abuse by Catholic leaders.”I was humbled and honored to be asked to participate in this event. Especially alongside Pete Singer, from the organization GRACE (Godly Response to Abuse in the Christian Environment), and the author of the excellent article: Toward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abuse.Making the Church more trauma-informed is not only important in our pastoral care and evangelization efforts, but I believe having a preferential option for survivors of trauma is an essential aspect of our identity as Christians.I received permission to share the audio recording of this event as a bonus podcast episode. LINKSGive to Awakehttps://www.awakecommunity.org/donateCourageous Conversations Videohttps://www.awakecommunity.org/blog/courageous-conversation-makes-the-case-for-working-toward-a-trauma-sensitive-churchToward a More Trauma-Informed Church: Equipping Faith Communities to Prevent and Respond to Abusehttps://currentsjournal.org/index.php/currents/article/view/444ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true.SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I talked with Fr. Chris Kellerman SJ about his excellent and challenging book, “All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.” In our conversation he presents a brief history of the Church’s involvement with, and teachings about, slavery. Fr. Chris also responds to still repeated misconceptions and revisionist histories about the Church’s participation in the slave trade. Finally, we talk about how this relates to the priest abuse crisis and how confronting the evils in the Church impacts our own faith. Also, I apologize for the audio quality of this episode, I didn’t realize I was using the wrong microphone until after the recording was over. Fr. Chris Kellerman, SJ, is Secretary of Justice and Ecology for the Jesuit Conference of Canada and the United States in Washington, D.C, where he oversees the U.S. government relations and legislative advocacy operations of the Jesuits. Originally from Arlington, TX, he studied at Texas Tech University, the University of Dallas, and Regis College at the University of Toronto. He is the author of All Oppression Shall Cease: A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Church.LINKS:All Oppression Shall Cease : A History of Slavery, Abolitionism, and the Catholic Churchhttps://orbisbooks.com/products/all-opression-shall-cease-a-history-of-slavery-abolitionism-and-the-catholic-churchAlessandra Harris - The Truth about the Catholic Church & Slavery with Chris Kellerman, SJhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2yRqU-B1oYABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

I have a wonderful conversation with Laura Vander Vos to share with you. Laura is the cofounder of TradRecovery, an apostolate that provides resources and community for folks leaving traditionalist spaces and who want to be in full communion with the Church. In this episode we talk about the real harm that so many people have experienced within Traditionalism and the work that TradRecovery is doing to help. Laura is a homeschooled wife and mother, who hails from Montana. She has a background in sacred music and is a self-published author. Laura operates the MissHappyCatholic youtube channel and co-founded the TradRecovery apostolate in 2023.LINKS:TradRecoveryhttps://www.tradrecovery.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

This week I talked with my favorite online cleric, Deacon Steven Greydanus. As a Catholic who cares deeply about Catholic Social Teaching, the deacon’s writings since 2016 have helped make me feel like the Catholic world hasn’t completely gone mad and that I still had a place in the Church. In August he wrote an excellent article titled, “Reflections on voting as a pro-life Catholic.” So I used that article as an excuse to invite him on the podcast to talk about the ways that politics and partisanship have harmed the Church in the US.Steven D. Greydanus has been writing about film since 2000, when he created Decent Films. Since then, he’s written regularly for a number of outlets including the National Catholic Register, Catholic Digest, Crux, Christianity Today, and Catholic World Report. Other bylines include RogerEbert.com, Slate, Bright Wall/Dark Room, and Our Sunday Visitor.SDG has contributed to the New Catholic Encyclopedia (Gale Research), the Encyclopedia of Catholic Social Thought, Social Science, and Social Policy (Scarecrow Press), the T & T Clark Handbook of Jesus and Film (Bloombury Publishing), and Film as an Expression of Spirituality: The Arts and Faith Top 100 Films (Cambridge Scholars). For ten years he co-hosted the Gabriel Award–winning cable TV show “Reel Faith” for New Evangelization Television, and he has appeared frequently on Catholic radio.SDG is a member of the New York Film Critics Circle and a deacon in the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Newark. He studied at the School of Visual Arts (BFA, Media Arts), Saint Charles Borromeo Seminary (MA, Religious Studies), and Immaculate Conception Seminary at Seton Hall University (MA, Theology).For over 18 years he wrote regularly for the National Catholic Register and was their film critic for nearly 11 years. His work at the Register was recognized several times by the Catholic Media Association Awards, including first-place wins in 2016 and 2017 and second-place wins in 2015 and 2019.SDG and his wife Suzanne have seven children.LINKS:Reflections on voting as a pro-life Catholic:https://greydanus.substack.com/p/reflections-on-voting-as-a-pro-life Decent Films:https://decentfilms.com/Pope Francis Generation interview with Deacon Greydanus:"https://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/deacon-steven-greydanus-watching ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

As we quickly approach another presidential election, I wanted to have Dr. Matthew Shadle on to talk about the USCCB’s voters guide, Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship. We discuss the history, development, and purpose of this voters guide. I also share some of my own struggles with this document, including how I see parts of it as incongruent with Pope Francis’s social teaching. After more than sixteen years of teaching theology at Loras College in Dubuque, Iowa and Marymount University in Arlington, Virginia, Dr. Matthew Shadle is the Academic Assessment Coordinator for the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Iowa. He received his B.A. in Religion from Hendrix College in Conway, Arkansas, and his M.A. and Ph.D. in Theology from the University of Dayton, in Dayton, Ohio. He has published Interrupting Capitalism: Catholic Social Thought and the Economy (Oxford, 2018) and The Origins of War: A Catholic Perspective (Georgetown, 2011), as well as numerous essays and articles on Catholic social teaching and its intersection with both fundamental moral theology and the social sciences, with special focus on war and peace, the economy, and immigration. He is currently the editor of Window Light, a Substack newsletter focused on Catholic theology and ministry.LINKS:Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenshiphttps://www.usccb.org/issues-and-action/faithful-citizenship/upload/forming-consciences-for-faithful-citizenship.pdf Matthew Shadlehttps://collegeview.academia.edu/MatthewShadle Public Reason as Historical Reason: Post-Conciliar Social Teaching in the United States (academic article by Matthew Shadle)https://www.academia.edu/33591440/Public_Reason_as_Historical_Reason_Post_Conciliar_Social_Teaching_in_the_United_StatesPope Francis Generation interview with Matthew Shadlehttps://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/matthew-shadle-franciss-theologicalABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode, I talked with Dr. Shaun Blanchard about the trend I’ve seen among not only Traditionalist, but also mainstream “JPII Catholics,” to reject the development of doctrine and embrace a type of Catholic fundamentalism.Shaun Blanchard is Lecturer in Theology at the University of Notre Dame Australia on the Fremantle campus in Western Australia. A North Carolina native and graduate of UNC, Oxford (Blackfriars Hall), and Marquette, Shaun writes on a variety of topics in early modern and modern Catholicism, especially Jansenism, Catholic Enlightenment, the history of the papacy, and the Vatican councils. He is the author of The Synod of Pistoia and Vatican II (OUP: 2020) and, with Ulrich Lehner, co-edited The Catholic Enlightenment: A Global Anthology (CUA: 2021). With Stephen Bullivant, Shaun co-wrote Vatican II: A Very Short Introduction (OUP: 2023). With Richard T. Yoder, Shaun co-edited Jansenism: An International Anthology (CUA Press: 2024).LINKS:Shaun Blanchard:https://nd-au.academia.edu/ShaunBlanchardTraditionis Custodes Was Never Merely About the Liturgy:https://churchlifejournal.nd.edu/articles/traditionis-custodes-was-never-merely-about-the-liturgy/The Reform Was Real: Continuity and change at Vatican II:https://www.commonwealmagazine.org/reform-was-realShaun Blanchard - A Hermeneutic of Reform:http://www.catholicthirdspace.com/p/shaun-blanchard-a-hermeneutic-ofABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this episode of Third Space, Angela Sealana and I have a conversation about what it means to live abundantly as a Catholic today. More specifically, we talk about what hope looks like when it’s not misused to bypass lament, suffering, and injustice.Creator of The Inspired Life newsletter, The Inspired Rosary podcast, as well as Catholic Communicators podcast, Angela Sealana passionately works to build healing bridges by promoting awareness of diverse cultures, chronic illness, and mental health in speaking and writing opportunities - especially within Catholic contexts.Angela holds a B.A. in English Communication Arts concentrating in Marketing and with a minor in Theology, from St. Mary's University in Texas. Her university thesis, "New Media, New Evangelization," one of the first academic papers published on the subject in 2010, was used as a reference by Catholic communities around the world. Angela's work was highlighted in Brandon Vogt's book, "The Church and New Media" (Our Sunday Visitor, 2011).She is the full-time media coordinator for a Catholic evangelization ministry, deep in the heart of Texas. Several of her interns have served the Church in a variety of communication roles.LINKS:The Inspired Life newsletterhttps://theinspiredlife.substack.comCatholic Communicators podcasthttps://inspiredangela.substack.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

In this first episode of Third Space, I talked with my friend and Pope Francis Generation podcast co-host, Dominic de Souza. Throughout the PFG podcast, Dominic would drop bits and pieces of his own experiences growing up in a radically traditionalist cult, but I didn’t ever get a chance to hear his whole story. Until today.Dominic de Souza is cradle-Catholic passionate about how Faith, history, and science meet in today’s world. Born in New Zealand, studied in Fiji and France, raised in Australia, and now living in the USA. Dominic is riveted by the Catholic frontier between faith, science, and history. He converted from radical traditionalism by a strange route – archaeology, quantum physics, psychoanalysis, mythology, evolution, angeology, and our Holy Father Pope Francis.LINKS:Dominic de Souzahttps://dominicdesouza.com/Smart Catholicshttps://smartcatholics.com/Legand Fictionhttps://legendfiction.com/ABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe

Welcome to the Third Space! LINKS:Third Spacewww.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THIRD SPACE: Third Space is the podcast for those who see the beauty of Catholicism, as well as the ugliness, who have experienced real harm AND real grace in the Church. Every episode I will have conversations with guests about the good and the bad in the Church—avoiding easy answers or black & white fundamentalism—in order to hold on to all that is true. SUPPORT THIS SHOW: Please consider becoming a paid subscriber. All of your support directly helps my family and allows me to continue working on projects like this podcast, the newsletter, as well as resources about spiritual abuse in the Catholic Church.  www.catholicthirdspace.comABOUT THE HOST: Paul Fahey lives in Michigan with his wife and five kids. He is a limited licensed professional counselor, retreat leader, and catechist. He is a co-founder of Where Peter Is, founder and co-host of the Pope Francis Generation podcast, and the host of the Third Space podcast. He seeks to provide pastoral counseling for Catholics who have been spiritually abused, counseling for Catholic ministers, and counseling education so that ministers are more equipped to help others in their ministry. Get full access to Third Space at www.catholicthirdspace.com/subscribe