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Get started at acast.com slash advertising. Welcome to the Rose and Shine Podcasts, featuring the sisters Josephine Victoria podcasting from New York. Josephine, we are in your Standing Apartment Overlooking Manhattan. You are working just across at the UN headquarters.
Why don't you tell us the story? How did we end up here? It actually all started with a trip to New York when I was 14 years old with the whole family. I just finished this interesting project at school, doing work on the UN, thinking that was a fascinating place, and then we came to New York.
And it was such an exciting, thrilling, in-your-face kind of city. So I just knew that this is a place where I really wanted to be living. Of course, we visited the UN headquarters, and this historical place was really became a dream for me. So really, it was kind of my first career goal.
And what a perfect introduction to our topic of today. Because today's episode is going to be about career and courage, or perhaps if it's courage and career. We want to talk about these topics in combination, because we think they actually matter and you can maximize your career if you have the courage. Yeah, exactly.
And we really wanted to give some of the inspiring ideas from our own career, but also ask you to some questions. So you have something to take away and think about after the podcast for managing your own career. Yeah, so just saying, perhaps you should start helping us to define, what do we really mean by career? What does it mean to you to have a successful career?
Well, I think the meaning of career has changed from me over the past few years. In the beginning, I really thought of career exactly like that, something successful, where you're climbing a career ladder, improving and improving and getting better and better positions. Today, I think it's more about finding a vacation, really doing something that you enjoy, and that gives you meaning. I think that's so brilliant, and career doesn't necessarily having to be wanting to become that CEO, but actually finding meaning.
That's good. What we really believe is that a great career up in those hand in hand would courage. So when you say encourage, tell me a little bit more. What do we mean by courage?
Well, courage in relationship to career is a challenge itself. I think it's moving out of that comfort zone, perhaps sometimes having the courage not to do so. I love the Swedish author, Esther Lindgren's definition on courage and Simbius puts it that true courage is actually doing something that you're a bit afraid of doing. I'm thinking about you just being because you've done so many things that I know that you actually find scary.
We do not just share an example of that in relationship to career, perhaps. Yeah, sure. The first that comes to mind is a story when Stephen and I, my husband, boyfriend at that time, we'd finished our masters studies, and we decided that we were going to go to South Sudan. South Sudan had just, or actually when we were there since 2011, undergoing independence and becoming independent from South Sudan.
So we wanted to go there because we wanted to study a local conflict and study it really at first hand. Traveling to South Sudan at that time, going to Juba, the capital, that was okay. But then we identified a small conflict in the middle of nowhere and we decided that we would go there. So we managed to get on one of these small UN flights and eight-seater plane.
Only I hear that. That's my eight-seater plane. It goes like, okay, good. It was terrifying.
But we were two South African pilots that we met the day before in the pub. I don't know somehow that gave me confidence. Maybe it shouldn't. But anyways, we traveled to this place, Twitch East is called in the middle of nowhere.
And we're going down for landing. We're thinking that we're going to land on this mud stretch. We're flying really, really close. And then all of a sudden we're lifting and flying up again.
Oh my god, how did that feel? I'm terrifying. But the pilots hadn't told us that they did not trust the people on the ground to really tell them whether the mud was not too wet, because it was the rainy season. So they really needed to have a flyby first to really get an idea by themselves that they were safe enough to land.
So yeah, it was safe enough to land. They turned around and we land safely on this mud pit. And they left us there in the middle of nowhere. And it was quite terrifying.
Even after the landing. But yes, we really, really learned a lot. And I guess the meaning of the story is not easy to push yourself like crazy like this. But doing that for us really pushed us outside of our comfort zones and as helpers in the rest of our careers.
Well, that's truly courageous, I must say. What is one of your top moments of courage? Well, I don't have to go all the way to down to find some moments sort of gathering my courage. But one thing that clearly remember from my career, and I was barely junior, I was working within learning and development, which is my field of passion.
When a much more senior role came up, actually, I would say my dream job came up. The organization where I was working posted it, I was a little bit too junior to apply for it. But still I felt a little bit frustrated that no one had even not even considered me for that role. Actually, at the time I was pregnant and I think perhaps that these pregnancy hormones gave me a little bit extra courage because I kind of rushed into the President's office and I was saying like, Hey, I know that I'm a little bit too junior for this role, but I think it's really unfair that you're not even considering me.
And then I sort of made up a couple of facts where I think these were the reasons why they should really consider me for that job. And eventually, you know, actually at the end of that meeting, it's like, okay, very good. So I'm looking forward to getting your application. And at the end, very end of it, I really did plan that job.
But really that was only because of that moment of courage that I don't know. I find it so courageous and maybe pregnancy hormones aside, I think at that time many women would probably say, Oh, maybe I shouldn't apply for it because of all of the implications of all that, but you really went for it. It's so cool. Yeah, thank you.
It was a bit crazy. I guess that goes into what we have prepared for you. It's just a little nap of how do you manage your career? Because we believe that there are a couple of core ingredients to manage your career.
We plan it, love it, keep connected, keep learning. So I guess this was, you know, using some of these examples. Can we go through them one by one and sort of share a little bit what we mean and how we can use it? If we start with the first one to plan it, now you're working in the UN, as was your dream from when you were 14.
But it wasn't just walking out from your master's degree in New York and getting a nice office in the UN and getting started. How did you actually plan so that you made it happen? Yeah, no, I mean, that's true. That's true.
And I knew the end in mine. I know what my goal was, but I also know that in order to be able to get this dream job, I needed to get some field experience as we call it. So actually work in an area where there is conflict or in a country going through transition, which is my field of work. At the time when this was happening, I was also quite flexible.
We didn't have any kids. We were out of grad school. So we had the ability to move. So what me and Steve decided to do at that time is that we took the risk.
We traveled to Myanmar without any contact there. Myanmar being some people would say Burma in Asia. And it was a country that at the moment and still are undergoing a very interesting, very challenging transition where there's been conflict for the last 50 years. Perhaps I should just add in that your area of expertise is conflict with the city.
Yes, thinking out all this conflict. Exactly. He's building a conflict resolution, many names, but that's what I'm working on. So we traveled to Myanmar and we started to look for jobs.
And even in the beginning, what we did is that we printed up our own business cards. We started to go to the meetings where peace and conflict in Myanmar was being discussed. We managed to link it back to our university and could do research in relation to this. So we had the legitimate in.
But how did you actually get your first job there then? Yeah, so that's funny. So we were sending out applications and trying to meet with people. And what happened was that the NGO, the non-governmental organization that played me after six weeks of being in Myanmar, it happened to be that she had also been a student at Columbia where I was a student.
So there was a little bit of a link in connection there. So she decided to give it a try. And it was also part because I was flexible. I could travel to the part of country where a lot of other people maybe didn't want to be.
And I decided to go there. That's really cool. Yeah. So I think we have a career plan.
I mean, how much should you stick to it? Sorry. I mean, you really love to have plans. I know.
I know. I know. I know. I know.
Everything figured out. I love to plan. And so I'm the first one to advocate that it's really good to actually have a plan at the same time. I also think it's quite important to be flexible because then you maybe pick up opportunities that arise that are not really courting exactly to your plan.
I think one of my best examples of that is when we had just moved to Scotland. We were there, settling us in. My husband got a job and I was getting the girls into nurseries and going for interviews when my husband called saying that this headhunter was in the middle of the day. And I thought that this headhunter wasn't touching because she had this great job for me.
And my first reaction was like, well, say no because we're just here. But eventually, very quickly, it led to the fact that we did not stay in Edinburgh, but we did move with the entire family to Dubai instead. While every other channel is fighting for your customers attention, podcasts are where they've already given it. No one accidentally listens to a podcast for 45 minutes.
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Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise. And so how did you make that decision that you were going to go on? Because I remember this. I mean, this was a tricky decision for your whole family.
It was a mega decision. And it was so funny because part of the interview process was to do the personality test. You know, the consultant was debriefing the test with me. And he said, well, you know, I can see here that you are a person that easily can make decisions.
You don't dwell over them overnight, etc. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, that's correct. That's me. And that very night I was in my bed like, oh my goodness, how am I going to be able to make this difficult decision?
And of course it was a common decision because it was the entire family. And actually what really, really helped was the fact that just a few months earlier, my husband and I sat down in the afternoon and just really talked about our key priorities in life, family, career and all those things. And we really identified that we wanted to have an international global career. So my husband was really sharing for us.
Let's go to the pie instead of because that's even further and more exotic. So that was so good that time that I think I had about a week to make up our mind, lean back to those priorities that we'd set and from that based on that making decision to actually go for Dubai. Yeah, fantastic. So to conclude the first kind of the planet part of the podcast, you need to identify where you want to go from the start and then really also see what is required or what is needed in order for you to get there.
What are the priorities? Just like you and Andreas have set out beforehand. What are the things we really, really want to prioritize and then be flexible on the way things will come up, take the opportunities. Yeah, I think that looks like a really good summary.
So then the next point that we're talking about is said so you plan for it but also love it. Yeah, and Vicki, you and you're one of those annoying people that always love your career, right? Yeah, I must say and I do realize that I'm pretty lucky in that sense. So I found my passion in my first position.
Even remember getting that first job from graduating from school and our parents were like, can you take that low paid and I actually got some few different job offers and but I just felt like, wow, this is it. This is what I really want to do. I took it. That was what made my career successful.
But so that sounds pretty easy in a sense. I mean, what about what if you don't love it? You don't love your career. Well, first of all, I say I love my job and I love what I do but I might not love all aspects of my work.
Okay. I think that's important. I think it's building a bigger purpose into what you do in reflecting on those things is quite important. Yeah, and I mean that's what I've been reflecting on as well is the idea of seeking meaning in your work rather than happiness.
Happiness is something kind of short, it's a quick fix. But meaning is something that really makes you wake up and go to work and really want to continue to do what you do. But I like happiness. I agree.
I know it's important. It's a fantastic TED talk on that. If you start on meaning rather than happiness, seeking meaning not happiness and you'll find a very inspiring short talk about it. Yeah.
And I think coming back to this step of managing your career to really love it, to make it bring meaning to you, I think that's what's going to make you successful. And that first position, that entry level that was quite low, we paid actually was the starting point for the rest of my career that came such a great career, not necessarily in this sense of great positions. So I think that is the conclusion here. Pick something that you love doing and you will be excelling in that.
Yeah. So our next one, keep networking. Yeah. And you just share this story in Myanmar and how network mattered.
And you actually learning that very first position. Why do you think, isn't it working that important? Or is it something that people just talk about constantly that not really matters? I think networking is really a key ingredient.
But maybe not networking in the traditional sense where you're really trying to seek out other people to help you, but really about identifying opportunities that you can help other people and thereby grow and build your next work. I can't remember a job except for maybe my current job, but in a very long time, that was a job that I applied to without knowing anybody and just getting. Rather, it's always been something that it's different networks, different people that you know, and therefore jobs can also be shaped towards you and from the sides. Most definitely.
I mean, I would say build your own job. And I also like that from Cheryl Sandberg, when she went into Facebook and you said, like, I'm here, I want to work with you. What is it that I can do to make Facebook better? I thought that was pretty cool.
And we think that networks are so important, right? So we have just actually started our club, Bruce and Shine, a club, which is all built around a strong female network. Yeah, exactly. So actually we're not just mingling and having Proseco together, but really reinforcing and building on each other's strengths.
But I think more about that later on. Yeah. So keep your network, build it, grow it, maintain it, and also book tip. Yeah.
Build your dream network by Kelly Holly. We really thought was a great book on this. I gave some concrete specific tips on doing that. Yeah.
Then we said, build your network. We said keep learning. Yeah. So learning.
I mean, you had learning in your titles for a large part of your career, a different type of director of learning and so on. So can you tell us a little bit what's the key ingredient here? Oh, wow. I mean, I love learning.
And I think sort of inspired by our grandmother and she took her a lot of degree in her 60s, which I think it's inspiring in itself. Apparently half time from a full time students while still working. And Haramoto was always keep learning or your brain will fall asleep. And I think that's the key really.
I mean, if you don't learn, you will stagnate. Whether you're saying I don't want a new role or anything like that, how can you learn and expand in that role even further? I think that's super important. And is it related to loving it?
Of course. So this is actually where it makes really sense. If you love your, you do. You really want to actually learn more about it.
Yeah. And it becomes kind of a pleasure in getting better and finding out better ways. It's almost like it can be a self test. Do you want to learn more about what you do or you're not really interested?
Yeah. Exactly. Fantastic. I think we covered the topic for today.
Do we want to recap what are the key ingredients in career and courage? Yeah. So first of all, match the two. I would say have a little bit of courage.
And perhaps you want to think about and identify situations where you need to have a little bit more courage and not just wait for things to happen. I think that's a commonly misunderstood thing that amongst women we think that if we really work really hard that all these people are going to see us and just come with this amazing promotion and it's just going to happen. But really I think it's very much up to us to go there and identify not be shy and pitch ourselves for positions, maybe even create positions for ourselves. Yeah, exactly.
But being entrepreneurial, even though my jobs are not within the field of entrepreneurs in a traditional sense, you've very much taken an entrepreneurial approach to it and created jobs and created business cards and shown up at meetings and shaped it. Yeah. And create opportunities while you are in your position. You know, I could to expand it, grow it, do more than what is expected from you.
Also one thing that we didn't really touch on, but courage could also be actually saying, no, I don't want to do this. I don't want to be at this part of my career right now. I want to step down and take a break and do something differently. So yeah, exactly.
And also I think related to the flexibility parts where we need to be, we need to have kind of our bigger plan at least a sense or idea in terms of priorities, but then having a flexibility in terms of how we reach that goal and also whether we change that goal along the way. Yeah. I think we have a pretty long working life ahead of us. I mean, I'm not planning to retire when I'm 65 or anything, even though that's a very long time.
65 just a prior. But still, I think it's more like a lifelong project really. How are you going to enjoy? How are you going to change and grow throughout your career?
So I think that's one key point. And then I think putting it all together, it's really what we said, manage your career. And that's nothing shameful in that because for most people, it's not like, oh, they discovered me and it happened. Be proactive.
Plan it and then love it. Staying the field where you actually look actively for what are things that you love. Exactly. So if you don't love your work, what are things within your job that you do love and is there a possibility to expand within that area or to shift your work more towards that?
Yeah. And then keep networking within your organization, outside the organization. Also maybe meet people that don't necessarily do the same things like you do, but people that think differently. Yeah.
Exactly. And then finally keep learning. Keep learning. That's key.
Yeah. So we have prepared a little worksheet for you that you will be able to download from our home page, roostenshine.com. Where there's just a couple of reflective questions based on what we've just talked about. Yeah, go in, write down, build, manage, create your own career and then let us know what you think about it.
Yeah. We're looking forward to be in your career. Quick question. When was the last time a display ad changed your mind?
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