The Joe Rogan experience. Train by day Joe Rogan podcast by night. All day. Biological war. Oh boy.
Every time I talk to you, I'm fucking terrified. That is my part time job to actually scare Joe Rogan. If I can do that, wow. Yeah, every time I talk to you, I'm like, oh no. Last time it was nuclear war.
Oh no. Now it's biological war. Oh no. Which is actually maybe even grimer than nuclear because at least in nuclear you're just like gone in the flash. I did a show a while back on the sci-fi network called Joe Rogan Questions Everything and one of the episodes we did was about biological war.
And so we spoke to this guy who used to work for Russia during the Cold War and he was talking about how much anthrax they had and how much work they had done on biological weapons. And it was terrifying. So they had like just giant vats of anthrax. Like enough to kill everyone in New York City. Was it Ken Alabak?
Do you know? He was Russian. Yeah, there was a couple of those Russian defector scientists who came here and told us everything they were doing. It was like, you know, tons of anthrax and plague. Plague.
The pathogen that I use in the scenario I write is plague because it's so crazy scary, so dangerous, sits at the top of the government's tier one select agent of dangerous pathogens. So one of the things that we did during this episode, we went to Galveston to, I guess it's a CDC lab that they had there. So they have these super thick walls and everyone's wearing spacesuits and they have these tubes attached to them and they were studying all these different really horrible fatal diseases. And I'm like, well, what if this stuff gets out? Like it's right here?
Like what happens if it gets out? Like, well, we take every precaution and this and that. But his concern, he said, was not for genetically engineered viruses. His fear was really just from natural viruses. He says, that is just as scary as anything that's out there.
This is the Russian scientist. No, this is a different guy. This is an American scientist. Yeah, I think they like to say that. You know, mother nature is just as powerful, but in truth, that's actually not true because think about what you can do with genetic modification, make it more virulent, more transmissible.
Yes. And make it defeat existing vaccines and antibiotics. Well, we are right now in the middle of the Fauci hearings. Yes, we are. So he's now testifying in front of Congress and pleading the fifth about everything, including the color of his tie.
It's very weird to watch. It's in one way, it's like I told you to a lot of my liberal friends that wanted to pretend that he was a great guy and that he wasn't doing anything wrong. And now that all these emails have gotten out where it shows that he knew that the fatality rate was much lower than they were saying, he knew that it wasn't dangerous for children, that they didn't need vaccines. He knew that the social distancing thing was all nonsense. And he's got a blanket pardon for 10 years.
And the thing is, it's like these people get money for research. And that's what they do. They do research. So if you get money and you get grants for research, well, you're going to do research. And if your research is gain of function research that makes viruses more infectious to human beings, and you have to do it because that's your job.
That's what you do. That's what you study. That's what you went to school for. What a crazy fucking thing we're doing. It is bananas.
And it's also, I mean, it was really unfortunate. I thought that yesterday he took the theft because I for one just want to hear, call me Pauliana, the truth be told. Well, he's not going to tell you the truth. No matter what, he's going to obfuscate and dance around it and use words that don't totally apply to what he's saying and just ramble on. I mean, COVID absolutely could have been this incredible lesson for all of us.
I mean, the nightmare that it was. And instead we're just left. I mean, can you believe that we still with all the power of national security, that we still allegedly do not know where the virus came from? Well, don't we go? Definitively.
I mean, definitively. People certainly have their ideas. But I think it's high probability that it came from the Wuhan lab. I think most experts are now saying that. And I think the only reason why they weren't saying that was because of Fauci.
And it was really because that he had funded this through the Eco Health Alliance. Look, I say that in a very like 90,000 foot neutral way. In other words, every sub I leave COVID that part of it out of my book. It becomes like a like a metaphor that underpins the narrative and people end up reading the book going, wow, I actually think differently about COVID, which was kind of my intention. But every subject matter expert I spoke to encouraged me to put in the book that almost certainly it was a lab leak.
Like it's just but so when I say we still don't know, that's in a bit of air quotes, meaning how is it that someone can't how does it all rest on Fauci who had reasons to mislead us? We know that from looking at what's been released. How can it be that he's the only one with the alleged answer to it all? Well, I mean, the other scientists that were investigating it from the beginning, you know, when they examined the virus, they were saying that all indications had been manipulated. And they were pretty public about that and then they weren't and then they changed their tune.
It's just when you have power and you have influence like he did and the power to make or break careers in the medical world where these people are terrified. You know, they're already dealing with malpractice insurance, which is very high. They already have very high student debt, student loan debt. And it's a bad situation for them. And they're not going to stick their neck out to risk their everything that they've worked for for 2030, whatever years for this thing.
And that's what most people did. Most people just stuck their head in the sand and you know. It sort of went along with a party line, which is also really crazy when you drill down on how dangerous biological weapons are. I mean, look, most of the people I talk to said gain a function is a euphemism for biological weapons engineering. Right.
Right. Period full stop. And a lot of it is funded by. And that, yes. And what's crazy is that these are people that have worked for Obama just as much as you know, all sides of the aisle work.
The real people who are not, as you say, they don't have something to gain financially. Well, we should say that Obama actually stopped gain a function of research when he was in office, which was a very wise thing for him, very wise by his decision. So what do you make of the fact that like Obama stopped this dangerous research, also called dual use research of concern? He stops it. And then suddenly it becomes a partisan issue that republic only one side of the aisle decides that, I mean, that's what confuses me.
Because if you look at the facts, the very knowledgeable people that are well informed by people who don't have financial gain know that gain a function is essentially weapons engineering. Yes. And the thing is they're doing gain a function to make these viruses more transmissible supposedly so that they can come up with cures, but they didn't have any cures. This episode is brought to you by Squarespace. If you're thinking about building a website, you should try Squarespace.
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See app for details. And but I think it's like, okay, that also sounds great for them to say we're trying to work on cures, but they're leaving out a really important point is that in order for us to find a cure, we have to make the pathogen more virulent, more transmissible. We have to make something, for example, airborne that wasn't airborne. We have to demonstrate that it could cause a pandemic. You see that a lot in the literature in order to figure out how to cure it.
Well, that's a catch 22 that's incredibly dangerous. Like we have to actually make a weapon to be able to defeat a weapon. That's actually what is being said. Right, but it seems like there's a lot of bullshit going on and that really what they're trying to do is make better diseases that work better and they can use them. Like this is part of the argument about whether or not Lyme disease was engineered.
And there's a lot of evidence and points to the fact that it was. And one of the reasons for it is this Plum Island laboratory that's right off the coast of Lyme, Connecticut where the disease was really first named in the 1970s or whatever it was. And so they were doing gain of function research. They were doing biological research on ticks in order to infect ticks with diseases. And then they would drop them out of airplanes and overwhelm the medical establishment in these areas.
And the idea was that if you're fighting the enemy, you can fly over, dump a bunch of ticks on them. They all get these horrible diseases. Everyone's sick. You don't have an effective fighting force. I mean, it's like we need to create a countermeasure, but first we need to create the weapon.
I don't even know if they think that far ahead. I think a lot of it, I'm just guessing, but I think a lot of it is just what I was saying earlier. There's people and their job is to do this kind of research. And they want grants and they want funding. And then there's other people that can profit off of this, of these grants and funding and creating labs and doing all this stuff.
And they just start doing it. And they come up with reasons why it should be done. And then of course you have military people that want the military applications of these diseases. And so they help facilitate it. And they don't even think, how does this play out?
They think about their own interests, their own short term benefits of having these things. And they just continue the research. They continue to work. And the fact that they even pushed back on the idea that it was a lab leak so hard, when you have a lab right where it was leaked. I mean, right where it started happening, you've got a lab there.
The famous John Stewart bit that he did on the Colbert Show, Solarius. Yeah. I mean, that's crazy. It's the Wuhan Institute for. Coronavirus.
Yes. And that's where we get a coronavirus leak. I mean, look, this is like where you really have to think the country's going to hell in a handbag that people stop being able to like form an opinion based on the facts and from them, even if it isn't popular with their best friend. What's their party? Right?
It's their ideology. They're committed to one side or another. And either you're with the team or you're not with the team. And if you're with the team, you have to accept all the things the team says. Get your own peril.
I mean, you know, it's an existential risk. Do you know what the case fatality rate for COVID was? Like the case fatality rate, it means how many people out of 100 people that get COVID die? One. Case fatality rate of one.
Pneumatic plague, which I write about in biological war, mother nature is pneumatic plague. One hundred out of one hundred die. Hundred percent case fatality rate. Unless you get antibiotics within 24 hours, then it's about a 15 percent case fatality rate. But guess what gain a function does?
You can learn how to outfox antibiotics so that you can turn mother nature's pneumatic plague, which used to be curable with antibiotics to have no cure. That's the threat level we're dealing with. And meanwhile, people are taking sides about what we're talking about a lab leak that pretty obviously was a lot. Well, first of all, I didn't realize that COVID's fatality rate was that high. I thought it was much lower than that.
It's about one percent. Well, here's why. Okay. So one in 100 people who manifested COVID got it. Yes.
So like I don't know that much. That is the CDC even Defense Department statistic, but also keep this into consideration. Many, many people who had COVID were never symptomatic, like including my 83 year old father and my son, one of my two sons, they could both test positive for COVID and have no symptoms. Right. But isn't that a function of the PCR test being really not designed for testing for active diseases?
And there's false positives of the PCR test was somewhere in the 80 percent. Huge. Huge. I mean, you're, I think bringing up the most important point. I mean, I think that's the most important point.
I mean, I think that's the most important point. I mean, I think that's the most important point. The most positive of the PCR test was somewhere in the 80 percent. Huge. Huge.
I mean, you're, I think bringing up the most important point about biology, which is that there's so much uncertainty. There's so much uncertainty. I mean, you and I could get the same pathogen in our lungs. Our immunity systems are totally different. Our physiology is different.
So there's no uncertainty would be something that you would think would be sort of factored into public health officials talking about things. Like we're not sure if dot, dot, dot, but instead they act with this crazy certainty, which is bogus. Well, the big, the big problem with that is profit, right? There was a lot of profit in being able to point towards one very particular method, one very particular treatment. And this was the only treatment and you have to take this treatment and this treatment is going to make people an insane amount of money, but that's not why they're pushing it.
They're pushing it for public health. They really care about you, even though they're going to make hundreds of billions of dollars. So the case fatality rate, is that what you're saying? Yeah. It says it's 0.1 percent, which is a fraction of the 1 percent estimated earlier than pandemic.
Yeah, that's what I thought it was. I thought it was one tenth of 1 percent. So that makes more sense to me because otherwise we'd have so many people dead. You know, if you think about 300 million people, that means we'd have 3 million people dead because most people caught COVID. It's interesting because the CDC still says it's 1 percent.
I think they're full shit. Are they all? I think they're just, I think the mismanagement and the, just the overall strategy for dealing with it and dealing with people, the lockdowns, keeping kids out of school, masking, all of it was so bad. It's so indefensible that one of the wildest things now is during this Fauci trial, you're not seeing any coverage of it on mainstream media except I saw one of those stupid panel shows on CNN where they were saying no one cares about this. We should care about what's happening right now.
America doesn't care about what happened five years ago. Hey, there's a congressional hearing going on where it guys testifying in front of Congress who got a 10 year complete 10 year immunity for all the crimes that he possibly could have committed when he wasn't convicted of any crimes, which is an incredible precedent that's never happened before. You've never had a guy get pardoned for something that he was never convicted of for 10 years, anything he did in 10 years. And then you have that same guy testifying in front of Congress pleading the fifth that what color is Ty is? If you don't think that's news, you're out of your fucking mind and you shouldn't be calling yourself the news because you're just a propaganda arm for whatever pharmaceutical company is paying for your advertisements.
This is what you're doing is nonsense. This is definitely not news. That's a big issue for most Americans who went through that, people who lost their jobs, people who had to take a vaccine in order to go to work and got sick from it, people who they couldn't fly, they couldn't travel, they were vilified, they were called plague rats because they were questioning these things. And here we are. Here we are with CNN saying, this is not a big deal.
Why are we concentrating on this? We have so many issues right now plaguing this country. Yeah, guess what? We can concentrate on those two. We can look at everything.
That's what you're supposed to do. That's what the news is supposed to be. You're supposed to be telling us, you're supposed to be the arbiters of what we can and can't concentrate on. That's ridiculous. You know, but what's interesting is I think the lack of news ends up making people more curious.
So in other words, people go to other sources of information. They're not going to get it from CNN. They're going to look for it themselves because we're naturally curious, especially something like COVID. So I think I kind of get the sense that people toe certain groups of people, certainly not me because you don't know what my politics are, but they will toe the party line, but then they have their own opinion privately, which is unfortunately what we also saw from Dr. Fauci, but that's a completely different point because he's a public health official and he shouldn't be speaking out of one side of his mouth and writing in his journal another thing that he really thinks.
But I think that this human instinct to want to know the truth about what happened must prevail. Right? And that's, but my original point was like, why is Dr. Fauci allegedly the only one who can really tell us about the Wuhan, loudly? Where's the CIA?
Where's the ODNI? Where's D.O.D.? Where are other organizations that you know have that information? You know they do. If Fauci had it, they had it.
Why aren't they bringing that to the public domain right now? That's a very good question. So I want to ask you about this book. Like what was your motivation for writing? How did you get involved in this?
Like I know you pick a subject and you go deep and you dive deep and then you write your book. So why biological war? My first six books were written in the past tense. Like you know, the Nazi scientists who came to America, Area 51, the Pentagon's brain. The nuclear war and biological war are written in the future.
They're scenarios based on Pentagon war games. And that was me realizing like there are major existential threats right now speeding up at the rate of science, which is going faster every day, literally. And so I modeled the two books after Pentagon war games and got access to people who actually run these games at the Pentagon and learned the sort of holy shit people are preparing for the worst case scenario. And no one knows about it. Is that their job though?
I mean that is their job. They have to be preparing for the worst case scenario. The real question is are you preparing by creating it? The Defense Department or us? Well whoever's.
Yeah. Well what I wanted to do first of all was like I'm just naturally curious. I wanted to know like what are they what how does that preparation play out? The most shocking thing about nuclear was to find out like oh there is no plan because we're all dead. That's literally the quote from the FEMA director.
There is no population protection planning after a nuclear strike because everyone's dead. Don't forget your morals and hope you stalked PD like that's what he told me. Bio is totally different. Why PD like you know that stuff you can do. Yeah electrolytes.
Yeah not just kids or you right. That's what he said. It's been a while since I've been an athlete. So yeah that's what he said it was like wow that's what they're thinking about nuclear. Why do you like though?
I guess for the electrolytes. Does that protect I know what is it iodine that people tell you to take? I always got the sense that the PD I should have done a follow-up question Joe. Why why I always got the sense in the same way that when your kids are babies and they get diarrhea that you give them PD light to like you know read get their system filled with necessary electrolytes. So that's and I also got the sense that it was like hydration and you know better than water.
But bio I learned is completely different animal because what they're really worried about is the secondary effect of panic and anarchy. And that was really interesting to me because having written all these books about you know the Defense Department and the CIA the programs are very you know they're very structured and ordered and they don't take place in the homeland because we're always fighting wars overseas. So to learn about a program that would go down in the continental United States where you know the insurrection act gets declared. Possai comatatus gets lifted. The military takes over dot dot dot and then it goes from there third act of the books boiler alert.
That was shocking to me. And it was equally shocking that I could actually get this information. A lot of it's classified but the names of some of the programs are unclassified. So the officials that I interviewed took me up to the edge of what can be legally known. And I also got the sense of like oh that the sense that these former officials are conveying is the public should know about this.
My personal interpretation is like let's stop arguing about stuff that like doesn't matter and get to the facts and start realizing where the real threats are. So their real fear is worrying about the aftermath. Thinking about chaos in the streets rioting looting. That's the real fear. That's the real fear.
You can search up any of so there's unclassified pandemic plans which are done by like FEMA DHS. They're always done by former officials, former SACDA, former CDC director sitting around a table running a war a pandemic plan in game. They do them at the defense department and they call it a biological catastrophe war game. Those are declassified. All of them that I was looking at go through the series of events you know outbreak infection that sort of everyone trying to mitigate the release, the spread.
And then it gets to a certain point in my scenario it's day six because pneumatic plague is fast. There's a point in all these plans where anarchy and chaos takes over and the war game ends. Ends. Like oh and now we're done here. And I would say as the journal like to myself what happens next?
What happens next and why aren't we learning about it? They don't have any plans for what happens after anarchy and chaos. They do. They just don't they just don't have it in the declassified games and that's what there's a plan called the devolution plan. I browse up for a reason.
Think about evolution now put a D in front of it. Yeah. Go forward you're going backward. So you've heard of DEF CON. Okay so DEF CON defense readiness condition there's five.
Five is the lowest that's like normal every day at 9-11 we were at three. DEF CON one means nuclear war. There's a separate structure of readiness condition called CogCon. Probably haven't heard of it because it's classified. Stands for continuity of government readiness condition.
It's got four levels. Four is every day. One is insurrection. The insurrection act gets declared. CogCon one is in effect and the devolution plan happens which I learned means a subset of pre-designated officials.
They know who they are. They've signed contracts. They've rehearsed it. They go out in the words of the former FEMA director CogCon one you send your devolution crews out. They go out to a hot site, warm site or cold site.
Underground bunkers located around the United States. This is from an actual FEMA chief telling me this. And they set up how to run the government because the idea is all the regular government people will probably be dead of anarchy insurrection, mnemonic plague. So they have bunkers. And those are classified?
The bunkers are. Where they are. Do you remember there was the bunker during afternoon 11 where Dick Cheney was in the bunker? But George Bush was just like hanging out. I think they left him in Texas.
Or he was out his ranch. He was just out there. In the world. You know what? He told me where he was.
And I went through like a problem with like legal whether I could say this. So I had to say I was told but you know it's not verified something like that. But one of the CIA spy pilots Ken Collins he famously flew the ox cart out at area 51. He told me that on 9-11 George Bush was driving around in Texas. Maybe it was in Florida in the back of a laundry truck.
That's how they kept him hidden. What? A laundry truck. So they just have it look like a laundry truck and it outfitted with regular seats in the back and that's how they drive around. A bulletproof laundry truck?
No, I think he got like, I think it was like what do we do with him and that was what was available. It was a laundry truck. That's what I was told by like a very reliable. That was available. Meaning there was nothing else available that was incognito.
They were trying to transport him to the doomsday plane which is where he ended up going into the doomsday plan and flying around and they thought that like a caravan of SUVs would be too obvious. Yes. Wow. Yeah. So you learn really pretty quickly that there's all these plans in place but then it becomes like ad hoc or like on the fly in an actual crisis or emergency.
Whoa. Yeah. But okay, you're referring to Mount Weather. That's where Dick Cheney went. Okay.
Okay. So Mount Weather is in the mountains outside of DC. It's like this mountains outside of DC. Really? Right.
It's Blue Ridge Mountains. Oh, how far are those? 175 miles. Okay. So the Pentagon has an alternate command center called Raven Rock, underground bunker.
Okay. That sounds like it's right out of a video game. It sounds like it's a little bit of a rape rock. They probably have put it in a bit. That's a real like it used to be classified and no one used to know about it.
Now it's kind of like out there. The official. Is it Jamie? This is the bunker? Yeah.
Oh, we have a map of it. 50 miles from DC. How deep does it? 51 miles from DC? At least seven levels.
Wow. The Oval Office would be at the bottom. That's where Cheney was on 9-11. So is that where a nuclear bomb can't get to it? A nuclear bomb would take it all out.
In nuclear war, I destroy all of those. I mean, I don't destroy them. I show you how they would be destroyed. Russia would put like five nuclear bombs on Raven Rock. And it would just boom, boom, boom, boom.
That would be it. And also the fires alone would just incinerate everyone inside. Also, how are you getting your air? Where's your air coming from? Your air is going to be contaminated with nuclear fallout, right?
Yes. I don't know. Some of those pictures were coming from tumblers. I don't know. I think they take the real pictures and then they turn them into comic books.
But you can see some of them. So look how it's got this entrance carved into the side of the mountain with a big cement wall and you go through that. Yeah. You know, we were talking about this the other day. We were talking about Naren Kuyu.
Do you know what that is? It's an underground facility that's in Turkey. Yes, I do know that. That they found by accident. Yes.
The next is the next is the next is the next is the next is the next is the first. It was being used to hide people up until the 1920s. Wow. What the Greeks were hiding from people in Vaid in Greece. So it can...
Or Turkey, I guess. How's 20,000 people under there? And they really don't know why they made it or who made it? It's... Turkey is crazy.
It's such an old civilization with like layers upon layers upon layers of... just when you think it's really old, it gets even older. Well, that's go back to Tapi, right? Yeah. Well, they had to redate.
Well, they still resist it. What constitutes modern civilization or civilization in general? They're still trying to say some archaeologists are hanging on to tooth and claw trying to say that hunter-gatherers made these enormous stone columns with 3D drawings that seem to be a calendar of some sort of a cataclysmic event. So some of the pictures we were just looking at from out weather may be not accurate because it's also used in the TV show The 100? Oh, yeah.
But it is a real list. But yeah, that's probably where they get it from. So what we were looking at I think was the stuff from the TV show. What is that? What's the 100?
Like a show like Stylo or something where people are, you know, 100 people left or something like that, I think. That's what we had Tim Robbins on. We talked about Stylo. Have you seen that show Stylo? Really good show.
It's on Apple. Great. And it's essentially about an underground civilization that survives some sort of cataclysm. They don't exactly say in the beginning, I'm early on the show. They don't say what the cataclysm is, but these people have to live deep, deep, deep underground in these self-containing facilities and you can't go outside or you'll die.
It's like all read about it. Darren Kuyu could house 20,000 people. And they had pastors or they had storage like for cattle and grain and water and wine and oil presses. It was like crazy shit. And how many thousands of years they don't know?
They don't know. They don't know. They don't know who made it. They didn't know it existed. They found it.
Imagine a guy, the initial story was that his chickens had gone through a hole and he's like, where's these chickens going? The disappearing Turkish chicken. So they knock down these walls and then they find this thing and they haven't even explored all of it. They don't even have all of it explored yet. It's insane.
It's so big and it's just there and they don't know why and they don't know who made it and they don't know what they're hiding from. This is what it looks like. Yeah, it's incredible. It's really crazy because it's absolutely enormous. Is this Darren Kuyu right here?
This is like some of the tunnels? Yeah, it's like it confused since they've landed 10% of it. That's obviously fake, but I don't know how much of that is what it is supposed to be underground, right? Yeah, that doesn't look real. That seems like somebody made it up.
But the actual image is like, that's an image. So it's just the best Darren Kuyu underground. Like they're, we point to one, yeah, we're there. That's what it really looked like. So imagine they find this underground and they don't even know how old it is because if you find some stuff, you can't carbon date the walls.
You can't carbon date the carvings. So they have to find things that are left there. But if people are hanging out there until the 1920s, like, so they really don't even know if you find something, how old it is, you can guess, but you don't know like how old was the building when this person was there? Was it thousands of years old already? They don't know.
It's interesting how the archaeologists that have a, like a have skin in the game with an other theory. And it takes a while. It's like with Go Backly Tap. You know, now there's investigations going on archaeological digs nearby and low and behold, they're finding other things, which makes me feel like they're going to be all over the area. Yeah, all over the place, of course.
It didn't exist on its own. Yeah, of course. Some kind of advanced civilization has neighbors. 11,000 years ago. It's so great.
It's so weird because we keep pushing the dates further and further back. Like Graham Hancock always says, stuff just keeps getting older. And so it makes you wonder, like, have we gone through something like this before? Whether it's a natural catastrophe or whatever it was? Remember when we were kids, it was like the Lasko caves where the oldest thing, you know, is the most interesting thing ever.
I don't even remember that. In France. Remember the drawing of the bull? Oh, right, right. I remember that from the history books.
That's from that, um, in France. Where's our documentary? Yeah. It's a great one. It's a great one.
Has he been on the show? No, I want to get him on. Oh, my God. He's a neighbor of my kids. Whoa.
Yeah. Well, I want to say where he lives. People find him, but that's pretty cool. Wow. In LA, so we'll drag him down.
He's my favorite documentarian. Oh, absolutely. Who's the man? Who's the man? Who's the man?
Who's the... I really like the happiest people. And all they do is like hunt and fish and trap and they get together. They have really strong community. They drink and they're laughing.
They have like no mental illness. It's really weird. He has documents. He has such... Have you seen Little Deeter needs to fly?
No. Oh, my God. The only man rescued from Laos during the Vietnam War. And Herzog... He's died since Deeter.
But Herzog goes with him back into the jungle. Oh, my God. You're going to love it. It's a treat that you haven't seen yet. Little Deeter needs to fly.
That guy has such a world treasure. Oh, my God. Just his voice, and his perspective on everything. everything just when you think just when I think I know what he's going for he takes you like on a complete left turn and you're left like at least for me thinking about the world in a completely new original way yeah so these caves in France they thought that that was the old but that was really old right wasn't wasn't that like 30 plus thousand year old drawing I think maybe Jamie can jack Ross I think they were like 7,000 busy you know so I think they were older than ever 1940 by 14-agers close in 63 all paintings create around 17,000 okay yeah that's it I thought it was old this is the one I heard documentary I thought they were like literal cavemen made it well I mean so that's only 17,000 years ago so that's interesting I really thought it was a lot older than that but then they come up with like the hand on the cave in Indonesia I think that's 40,000 and believe to be 19,000 years ago that's interesting so at
one point in time they thought that was the oldest when I was a kid I remember that like it's not quite what it says yeah painting for the site were duplicated with the same materials which were used to believe like which were used 19,000 years that doesn't mean oh right right they knew that they used them 19,000 years ago but they could have used them a lot of our own right right right we don't have documents crazy stuff though just imagine like living back then it is wild when you think about the underground bunkers now and you kind it kind of has this spooky echo as an archetype of hiding hiding from the dangers yeah having a shelter and hiding from the the whole that trope that thought of a bunker is you know there's a lot of supposedly wealthy people well they are wealthy but supposedly they have these underground bunkers that's what you always hear these rich people these billionaires are setting up bunkers in New Zealand because they know something's coming like oh Jesus right good luck getting there in time yeah right right if the shit goes down and you happen to be in Hawaii and you got to get to New Zealand also your bodyguards are a lot stronger than you are well
wouldn't you bring them with you yeah but it's gonna be every man for themselves well wouldn't you have it if you're gonna have that kind of money to make a one you have a bunker that could house a few hundred people so that you could you know nobody gets insurrection in your movement I mean I suppose if you bring everybody's family you have to have a lot of preparing for this that's what really kept taking me back to those document the documents in the defense department about fear of infection creates anarchy right an insurrection because this idea of like fear of infection people begin to their mind actually begins to change in the studies under scarcity right and scarcity coupled with fear of infection it's so visceral it's like it's as much of an archetype as the bunker being infected right very very different than being shot at right you get the sense if you're if you can get into the bunker if you're being attacked with a physical weapon okay I'm safe now close the doors make a fire but with fear of infection I mean a biological weapon or any pathogen from is a living munition it's self-replicates and it's got an incubation period so then it at right so then you can be infected and not know it while
it's incubating inside of your body and then you infect a bunch of other people as well yeah yeah and we saw during covid how aggressive people got screaming at people for not wearing masks and you know that was as far as pandemics go fairly mild yeah fairly mild like I mean if you go with the CDC's 1% or your 0.1% or right for flexion is one for I mean you're talking about a nothing compared to okay so pneumatic plague and there are you know I mean look I also write in the book and this has never been reported before because I interviewed CIA officers who both debriefed the Soviet defectors and also people who chased WMD in the hands of terrorists during the war on terror and I specifically didn't want to write that scenario because it's so loaded to go with like terrorist youth use of a bilateral agent but I give you little history lessons when I stopped the drama one of which involves an al-Qaeda terrorist that was captured she's actually now in Texas in a mental institution for the rest of her life her name is A.F. Sadiqi she's an MIT trained biologist related by marriage to
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed okay and she was leading the biological weapons program this is according to the CIA officer she was trained at MIT and then she went back to Pakistan she was the first woman on the FBI's most wanted terrorists how can they have her in a mental institute because they caught her and then this part is reported they caught her and somehow again the air quotes somehow she got a hold of a Marines rifle and fire and was firing at the FBI agents interviewing her this is all public and she was shot they take her to the United States gave her a trial decided she was insane put her in a mental institution but what had never been revealed before my book is that in her handbag she had plans to create a genetically modified pathogen that mixed rabies with chickenpox think about that imagine airborne rabies rabies like pneumatic plague is one of the only other pathogens that has a hundred percent death rate without countermeasures and rabies like when you see it in animals I've never actually encountered a rabbit animal in the wild as much as I know but when you see them they want to
infect something else they get hyper aggressive they want to bite you so they bite you they give it to you which is really crazy like this this disease makes them throw their own safety out the window and just go after people and try to bite them I mean it's like a it's like rabies is a sit like now it's own rabbit animal you think of it it's so visceral right it's gonna come at you with its infected saliva I almost went with the rabies scenario because I always in these scenarios tie them to actual events that have happened so that there's so that readers don't go like this is Annie Jacobson's dystopian imagination as much as they say oh she's following what you know science this is science fact not science fiction and so when I learned about that plan for the genetic modification of rabies and chicken airborne rabies but then I thought how did she get along with this that is classified Annie you know but I did get a second person David Rehlen his advisor to the president on biodefense to confirm with me that that was actually located in her handbag and caused serious concern no imagine if they never found her they never caught her and she completed that
I mean it's really terrifying it wipes out most of the country and also just in the most horrific way I mean you know like having to like look at your pet and be like is my pet rabbit it's just another project she had collected materials on viruses for biological warfare and whatever projects is finding its way to infect America's poultry supplies with an antibody that would allow chickens to pass salmonella onto humans more easily she later destroyed her work after suspecting Abu lubab was hoping to double cross her and turn her into the United States authorities this is a long Wikipedia with quite a bit of twists and turns the prize it's not a movie a lot going on oh my god and that's one person that we caught now that's not like this is the only time they thought of that this is the only person that they tried to recruit to do this kind of stuff there's probably someone out there right now hence your book I mean I interviewed this guy very famous legendary CI officer named Rolfe Moat Larson and he led the counter WMD team right so he would go to places basically like with a bunch of
ground branch guys CIA paramilitary guys behind him he was kind of like the intelligentsia at the front to try to negotiate with al-Qaeda weapons makers biological weapons makers and say like you can't do this it's gonna kill all of us and he told me a couple stories and I write them like history lessons in the book once he went to Sudan and met with the top biological weapons maker for al- kaida and like you know it's just chilling it's basically you get the feeling like that Rolfe said I got them just agree to stop temporarily temporarily temporarily oh sorry Joe this is the nightmare stuff so what do they think that they're gonna do if they get into these bunkers this is the thing it's like if society completely collapses and anarchy just sweeps the nation and you've got cities on fire and people killing people and looting eventually they're gonna run out of food eventually there's gonna be no infrastructure you've got no power you've got no one who's taking care of the water no one's taking care of the satellites no one's taking care of anything the cell phone towers are down what are these people in the bunker gonna do they gonna reinvent society well that's
the plan down the road but before that they have that they're part five of the devolution plan is called reconstitution oh so they're gonna reconstitute the government like rise again like a phoenix from the ashes but before that I also learned the government has issued rather the Pentagon has issued 1.7 million gas masks to its personnel so they fan out across the states but they can not really handle the numbers of people who are actually gonna die pretty quickly so instead what their job is is is to protect the critical infrastructure all that stuff you exactly mentioned so they just just assuming that most people are gonna die yeah yeah I mean this is the quote this is the exact quote from Colonel Tom Erhard who ran catastrophic nuclear and biological war games at the Pentagon for do you ever heard of a very famous guy they called him Yoda at the Pentagon he died a couple years ago at age 100 his name is Andy Marshall he ran the office of net assessment talk about a euphemism like or like a cloaked that's where they
did all the work aiming and Marshall Andy Marshall did this in the 70s all the way through his recent death and Tom Erhard worked for him it's in the office of the Secretary of Defense so what Erhard told me is in the event of a biological catastrophe and by the way that includes not just an attack but an incident and an incident means a lab leak okay so in the event of a catastrophic biological incident there's very little you can do to protect the homeland only things you can do to mitigate extermination of the human race that's his quote mitigate exterminate so you want to keep as many people alive as possible but it's probably gonna be a very small amount and it's probably just gonna be the 1.7 people with the gas mask and a whole bunch of like Macha Valley and solipsis imagine if our society had to be reinvented with only people that work in the government can you imagine some of the most incompetent cricket people in the world and that's the new society well I have a feeling most of the bureaucrats would die because I don't think they could you know take care of themselves
right I think the people that would live would be those well-trained soldiers well that's not bad that's probably a better scenario but the other problem you're looking at is reproduction because there's 17% females in the military that's not good that's not good and then the other problem is that the other people who are left that are not in the military are imagine the skills you have to have to be able to like deal with fear of infection in a manner that you basically have to be able to as it was said to me kill people on site like not even worrying about whether this is where it really feels like the Walking Dead or you know an apocalyptic movie 28 days later was based on that 28 days later was a lab leak yes yes remember it was called rage there was something they were doing with chimpanzees and chimpanzee bites somebody that's how it opens that's spreads those are great films no oh the new one parts one and two I mean there's parts one into yeah yeah it was a two-part or they they released them like six months apart they're they're incredible I mean I just worn out for
those kind of movies I mean it's a certain yeah that is a certain you know happy ending I don't I mean Joe I'm an eternal optimist believe I really am I really am but I just figure all of this is a cautionary tale and I also figure it's better to know well it's better to do form and I think you do an amazing job of that and I think you're a very important person in that regard you inform people of these things that you really should be considering I mean your nuclear war book freaked a lot of people out that were kind of you know nuclear war was in the back of their mind you know yeah it's possibility but hey we haven't done it we dropped a couple of bombs during the World War 2 and that's it we're done with that you know you said something to me last time we spoke about the nuclear workbook that really stayed with me and it has an interesting coda so you were like Annie I can't read nuclear war it freaked out a lot of my friends I can't read it and then you explained why and you said I'm paraphrasing you but you said I think about those people at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and they were just going about their daily life and all of a sudden they're incinerated and that really stayed with me and I thought about it here's the coda
the survivors are called Habaksha that's what they call themselves it's like survivors of the nuclear bomb so now since it was 80 years ago they're all like 81 to 90 plus and they were stigmatized throughout their youth because the idea was you're radioactive you can't reproduce you're sort of you know there's like a a malignant thing attached to you this is what they told me and I met them and they I was invited to Hiroshima to be the keynote speaker with the baksha for the 80th anniversary of the bombing what did they say the experience was like in terms of being maligned like what was happening to them well the sense I got was very much that they believed that was accurate they had no other information they had no other information other than people telling them yeah now what was also interesting is a couple of the younger people who were who don't remember who were like infants their mothers like let's say one parent died and another so
they're one of the living parent would shield them from that by never telling them that they were a baksha so then they had this whole other kind of realization later in life when they learned and some of them in those stories were like incredible because you're learning about how like a parent's lover a child means not telling them what you think would make them feel stigmatized but yet you've them explaining to me that they felt that stigma throughout their life anyways not knowing why I never would have considered that stigma I would have considered survival skill survivors guilt which people do have if you're a part of a disaster and you're one of the ones that lived yeah people get survivors guilt but I never would have thought of the stigma of being maligned as an infected radioactive person and Japan has such a different culture I couldn't have imagined that either until I heard it firsthand from the experience of the survivors they sent some of them to an island mmm like banished as if you're a leper how much is this the wrong thing freaking you out the war yeah
look I mean when anyone starts a war that's not necessary that's the wrong word for it but you know just like this is the whole it's just a terrible terrible terrible idea it just seems to me like the opposite of what the Department of Defense it's why I continue to call the Department of Defense by the way because it still is in my mind and certainly until Congress changes the name you know it's supposed to be for defense right so I think so so much of what I have written about all the wars since World War II I've interviewed hundred more more people for each of my eight books who have been in every war and the big shift for me like understanding a change in mindset was the Bush Chaney administration starting the Iraq war like I really believe that many of the problems we're experiencing today as a society stem from that and that has to do with the fact of all the soldiers that I've interviewed there's a there's a completely different perspective on the government from those who fought in the
wars leading up to the war on terror and the people who most of them you know many of these people too like they're mad they're really mad that they were used that's the sense that I get not everyone but a majority are very angry and feel used and that is a fundamental warping of what the military is yeah without doubt and also no clear way to resolve this at all yes and it seems like our stockpiles are running dry you know where bases are getting blown up by drones I heard you know I heard Joe Kent who was the number two at ODNI who resigned I heard him say a really interesting thing about the warrior class that I hadn't you know when you just like have all this information but you didn't put something together and then you hear it and you're like of course and what Joe said was one of this was in reference to Trump maybe saying there was gonna be or someone this administration saying there should be a draft and everyone freaking out and
saying like that's you know that's outrageous and Joe Kent's point was really interesting he said there should be a draft but not for reasons you think and he said presently America has a warrior class and Joe Kent is in it meaning you know these are like a don't have the exact statistic one percent less than one percent of families who are in the military and he said Kent said you know we socialize with one another our kids socialize with one another we go to school with one another we go to war with one another we talk together we have parties and we know something about America that is completely foreign to all the other families and it's there's something wrong with that and I've really thought about that a lot since and I agree with him and his point about the draft was if everybody knew and experienced what we experience in our families talking about war versus peace wars would be looked at differently instead of thinking we should go to war like a Lindsey Graham type perspective
where's no real skin in the game he's not gonna go get shot no one knows gonna go get shot yeah absolutely makes sense so that's kind of my answer to you know and I like I'll see a headline it's like the war and around costs us X Y Z billion dollars and it's like it doesn't even mention all the people dying you know there's like 10 and yes the Americans but like it's just talk about misreporting right it's just talking about money which is crazy which is crazy which is crazy and then also the real problem is it makes America an enemy and it makes us less safe because America has done this thing is unprovoked attack and so now they have a reason to attack back it's it's very like slippery you know it's like untrustable I mean I always go back to like the way you behave with your family is the way that you should present the world otherwise you're being a hypocrite and the idea that we're we as a country are kind of like you're not really sure what we're up to and then it's changing it's like radically changing one the pendulum swings so far from what one administration's you know
list of really important things is to another I mean it must from an outside perspective it must be really schizophrenic looking yeah so to get back to your book how many different countries do we know are involved in this kind of biological war research so for starters biological war is illegal biological weapons are illegal unlike nuclear weapons believe it or not are perfectly legal for the countries that have them wrap your head around that but everybody signed a treaty in 1972 called the biological weapons convention treaty saying we will not make biological weapons they are odious to the conscience of mankind at that point the Soviets signed the treaty cross their fingers behind their back and made a ginormous biological weapons program that you talked about earlier okay America allegedly destroyed her arsenal of biological weapons which took 219 weeks to destroy by the way and not for another 20 years did we learn
that actually the Soviets were running this biological weapons program and we only learned it because of the Soviet defectors the CIA had no idea defense department so we had completely stopped all that work according to the documents according to anyone you interview we had stopped biological weapons what year was this whole Nixon made a declaration in 1969 like we're just giving up our biological weapons program and then everyone else followed suit and the treaty came about in 1972 but the Soviets continue to work so it's not only continued they just like they like went bang on it and they later called it their Manhattan project and weren't their bio weapons labs in Ukraine you're talking about recently yeah that the United States was involved in well what there are there are there are bio-safety labs okay so your original question was where are they around the world so so they're illegal but what isn't illegal because this is a carve out in the treaty you can do research for prophylactic purposes for medical countermeasures that's the carve out so that's where we've gotten to gain a function you see like oh we're just
doing this for prophylactic purposes that's how the DOD gets involved okay so before 9 11 9 11 factors into this and so does Dick Cheney because before 9 11 America had two BSL four laps bio safety level four that's the highest level that's like you saw the suits the tubes your arms are in the boxes you're taking a shot chemical shower before you go in America had to one at Fort Detrick that's the DOD's lab one at the CDC in Atlanta that's the civilian lab 9 11 happens remember the Andrax attacks never solved thank you FBI Dick Cheney personally is terrified of bio weapons and he spearheads the efforts for this giant biological military industrial complex that then takes off and begins with billions of dollars pumped into gain a function type research and America goes from having two BSL labs to having 15 and the world follows suit so there are 110 BSL four labs around the world including in countries that are
at war and this is all post-bushing mr. Post-bushing that is when that is when it took off Wow so America has a hand in the blossoming of this problem most certainly and then when you find out that so you think BSL four okay well BSL three that just must be like you know check in box no in the BSL three labs you can work with plague anthrax, Hontovirus like serious diseases that allegedly have cures and so you know how many BSL three labs there are in the United States of America right now I'm a 1500 1500 and around the world there are 3,500 90% of them have no guidelines for safety did you hear about the story where there was a man in Vegas that had a bio lab in his garage yes in California another one they're both there's and they were seemingly linked oh boy possibly tied to California case federal Chinese investigation yeah wait oh boy Jamie why you doing this no case appeared filed in state federal
court as of Sunday like it's and I didn't really see a follow-up I haven't seen the dead mice Jamie what are the what's with the dead mice and that my is their vials including HIV malaria well the crazy thing is the guy who they caught they didn't arrest him like there was an Israeli guy so this has Chinese investigation but one of them was a guy who was an Israeli guy who they caught and they sent him away he just they didn't prosecute him he took off I mean this stuff is so thinly reported and it's always got like a giant sensationalist clickbait type headline and people read about it and know about it a little bit and then the real reality behind it I think it's completely lost which is that the bottom line is that the barrier to entry in the biological weapons field is so incredibly low it's horrifying like think about what you need to have a nuclear weapon a lot I mean look at around right now okay you have to have enriched uranium or plutonium you have to have this all material then you have to have a weapon system you have to have an ICBM
or submarine or a B2 bomber nuclear weapons are tightly controlled by a nation's command and control structure all subject matter experts I interviewed for this book expressed their serious concern that the barrier for entry is so low that basically a given computational systems AI enabled bio basically a high school student with limited knowledge of biology can make a bio weapon in their basement or in the Vegas apartment building well this guy had it in his garage and they caught him and what was he doing do you know I don't know they they reference it as a storage facility and they said obviously I said storage facility yes it's not a laboratory adding that the samples and equipment suggested no active work was happening there but it says I think the question is why does somebody have these materials in a private residence it's not a doctor not a lab not a licensed medical facility of any sort this guy and it's a great question and I wonder what the answer is I think it was an Airbnb yeah I like that it gets lost in the LLC owned it is that the guy was running it
doesn't own it and 1200 samples oh god so that's what he doing what was he doing I think they released him that's what's crazy the guy in Vegas was released is that correct that's what I said when I googled that I don't really see a follow up on like anything updated or new I'm pretty sure they really I'm pretty sure the guy in Vegas was an Israeli citizen and he was released so the question is like what was he doing and he was caught but that's just one guy that was stupid and got caught how many people are doing that how many are there sleeper labs all across the country or you saw them and charges dropped it said I'm an app ready to manager whoopsies maybe it's a property manager yeah no big deal he didn't do anything stop prejudice still faces criminal charging Clark County for improper disposal of hazardous waste but didn't you leave and go back to Israel I mean this is just looking at the I think that was the allegation he's back in court on June 4th which is already half ago yeah so I don't see I didn't see a thing about it yeah nothing to see it says it is really citizen right didn't say that go back to the right we just should not an on immigrant visa is
not allowed to just firearms prosecutors say multiple gun disease from some we got guns if you've got played you got to look out for your your stock on your plague but you know I stayed away from that kind of lone actor crazy because it's a lone actor I mean exact you don't know and if it was would you think they'd let him go that's that's my question if it's a lone actor would they really let him go or is he connected to somebody and that's how he got out I mean one of the problems of the over politicization of everything is that it just seems like anything important becomes splatter and become secondary to some of these other concerns that seem to take headlines right like that should be a big story and yet all any of us ever heard was did you hear about the crazy bio lab right I can tell you that the bigger story is really at least in my eye you know because this is another one oh thank God nothing got out thank God no one was infected but the real issue is what happens if someone does get what happens if a pathogen gets seeded in the community and an outbreak starts to move to an
epidemic and you know the look I write in the end of the book Joe the point is not panic this is of course after I take you through like the worst dystopian nightmare ever the point is pressure pressure to understand the threat the the labs around the world the bureaucracy involved all the different problems that would come up of mitigating the threat so that you can be informed and also say like what I mean it's something really needs to be done and needs to be looked at here and people and instead people are arguing about the most obvious thing in the world to my eye you know what happened in the Sunday yesterday like that is pretty obvious what happened what is being covered up we were misled and yet all of this intent I'm not saying to skip over it and you know but it's it's like how much effort do we put on something without a resolution that's what confounds me yeah it's a really good question and the fact that there's so many labs in this country and that they've all sprung up post 2001 they moved that plum island
lab by the way to Kansas and it opened it either just opened or is about to open it costs an extraordinary amount of money and now they do the same research yeah they moved it off of Plum Island and now it's in Kansas you know anything about this alpha-gal tick this Lone Star tick that gives people this allergy to red meat a little bit a little bit in as much that it's a parasite which is different you know it's a bug which is different than a germ but I think it speaks to this idea that sort of there are natural things that are happening in our environment and then there are also unnatural things and the inability to differentiate between them or trust look so much of all this has been about trust the science and then we can't trust the science unfortunately around covid and we're all waiting for reckoning around covid it's obviously not coming anytime soon and in the meantime you have you know the lettuce outbreak you have the alpha-gal you have legionaries disease from data centers and you're there's an influx of health concerns coming from other
nature herself here we are in this world of incredible science and technology I mean I talked to biotechnologists who by the way really have a utopian take on this now there is lots of money involved for them but they really believe that they that science is the answer and can be the answer to a lot of these problems I was I sat next to a guy at dinner a couple nights ago who told me that his company in San Diego has a countermeasure for alpha-gal I have no idea of verifying this just happened but the reason they can't get it through is because of insurance you know one of the treatments is supposed to be very effective is acupuncture on your ears on your ears yeah see if I need anything on that I read about this that there's like a 90% remission that one guy's been able to achieve through acupuncture on your ears just like what do you what like hey whatever works but is this real acupuncture acupuncture specifically a specialized ear technique called Saliman or a regular allergy treatment is being explored by integrative practitioners to help manage and potentially
achieve remission for alpha-gal syndrome though it's not yet a standard medically proven cure how it works for alpha-gal targeted ear points provider locates a specific highly reactive electrical point on the outer ear associated with the alpha-gal immune response acupuncture so weird because it seems to be doing something you have acupuncture no I had it done once with the guy was a cooke and I went back I feel like acupuncture is so old and comes from such a long history of experiences I have acupuncture and it just seems like anytime I go for anything someone wants to give me drugs which I'm not a fan of I go to the acupuncturist sure call it the placebo effect or call it whatever you want but it certainly works for me I don't necessarily think it's a placebo I think a lot of that really old stuff we like to dismiss because we like petroleum based pharmaceutical drugs because that's what the doctor gives us a standard of care I have a feeling there's a lot a real it's been around too long for them to just keep faking it I mean if it works it works yeah well if this if it turns out that this ear technique actually yeah puts alpha-gal and remission maybe people
take that stuff more seriously and start using acupuncture for other because I know a lot of people swear by it and I'm always I just kind of raise my eye for a good luck but maybe that's just me being ignorant definitely that's me being ignorant a specialized ear acupuncture method called the Solomon oricular allergy treatment shows a high reported success rate about 85 to 96% for putting alpha-gal syndrome symptoms into remission that's crazy yeah I mean I don't know who did the study you know what I like it I like that that's out there because I always feel like the acupuncture as our side-lined because they're not part of the the medical insurance military industrial consignal stays in your ear for three to four weeks oh wow it's not just like a little treatment it's secured with a small adhesive bandage I'm a little needle hair thin stainless steel needle huh 130 some patient trial was like what how how fucking figure that out do you know anyone who's gotten alpha goals yes a good friend mind yeah he has it and what
he's become deathly allergic or yeah deeply allergic well I mean it doesn't kill him but it wrecks him and so he got over it and started eating meat again and then it came back with a vengeance came back even worse than it was before so when into remission and then came back and you know he's really like tighten up his diet and done everything one thing that really helped him was plasma for recess do you know what that is it's a they take your blood and they filter out the plasma and replace it yeah I had it done I done done for fun just to see what it feels like and you get really tired the next day that's one thing but then the day after that oh my god you feel amazing you feel like you've just lost 20 years of age like it really feels incredibly so much energy it's really odd whatever it is it's doing something but people that have autoimmune issues people that have allergies people that have a lot of different weird things apparently they have some great responses from that but my friend you know he struggled with a bunch of different things and getting his blood work and lab work done he was also in the military and spent a lot of time overseas and one of the things that he found out is PFAS PFAS these forever chemicals you get from plastics he's got burning plastics well it's not just
that it's also just hot water so like they take these bottles of plastic bottles water in cases and they've got them sitting out in the sand in the Sun in Afghanistan and Iraq and that's their water supply so they're drinking this water that's been sitting out in the Sun that's leaching in these plastic bottles so he found out that his PFAS levels were off the charts and that's because you know he was deployed overseas all those years drinking that water you see this about the PFAS chemicals I just always come outside of how tested it's been but someone's figured out a way to get almost all of it out out of water but not your body well that's how it's getting in mostly so right but the problem is once it gets in your body it's the problem scientist because my friend still I mean Evan has it in his body scientists have developed a clever new way to trap forever chemicals and water using nano-sized cages that lock onto PFAS molecules unlike current methods this approach can capture short chain PFAS the hardest type to remove test show that it can eliminate up to 98% of these pollutants and still work after multiple uses the discovery could lead to more effective water filtration systems worldwide well that's good news science technology yeah we do use it can be good it can help you or harm you or do you
sure and there's some brilliant people out there that are figuring out ways to mitigate all the stupid things that we do like that yeah but people you know this the whole new creeping up of new diseases emerging and sort of like pockets of the country and feeling like the CDC or the HHS has no real lid on it or no real explanation I think kind of seriously undermines the general wellness of the nation over sure well that was a big problem with COVID is that this feeling of the fear and anxiety affected people's immune systems as well affected their their depression levels affected their happiness like just their overall feeling anxiety I mean how much of an effect just that the court is all boost all the different things that are happening to stressing out your body because of that pandemic that we don't even consider as being part of that experience I think also when you like okay can I give you an anecdote because this comes to mind about what you're saying is like that idea that there's uncertainty okay and uncertainty raises your cortisol levels and even worse is when you're uncertain about something you're being told is true but you're like I'm uncertain that is like an even more anxiety making right right
one of the things that's stunning to me is how the CDC and the WHO they're supposed to be these pillars of sort of the north star of you know public health at least they certainly were when I was a kid you really looked up to these organizations okay COVID happens this the WHO and the CDC both issue they're tweeting out three months into the pandemic COVID not airborne not is in capital letters I have a copy of the tweet in the book because no one really believes this unless they see it okay COVID was airborne COVID was airborne that is how we all got COVID COVID is and make something incredibly pandemic wrong okay instead they said you get remember you get COVID from like touching surfaces we're all like out buying Lysol the CDC went into a partnership with Lysol Lysol disappeared from the supply chain we now know that's actually called fomite transmission that's the scientific term for getting something
off a surface we now know that one in 10,000 cases of COVID was transmitted from a surface how can they have gotten it so wrong is a question everybody should be asking and the explanation because by the way the WHO didn't change they kind of quietly about nine months later started saying COVID was airborne same as CDC they never said like look we're really sorry we made a serious mistake and here's why and I called both the CDC and the WHO looking for an explanation and asking why they never made an apology and no answer and I think that's like what we're talking about talking about raising cortisol levels you know when your institution is completely wrong and by the way I don't think it was nefarious they literally didn't know or they had their panel of experts disagreeing to such an extent that they just went with not airborne as opposed to airborne what does weird you out that they were in a partnership with Lysol I had to report that in the book because that is you just start thinking about profit motives I mean if I had to guess it was convenient to have a partnership
with them I don't have any reason to believe that they were like let's say it was fomite transmission and partner up with Lysol but I certainly if you're Lysol you're gonna probably go hey guys let's partner together but you know it disappeared from the supply chain I remember trying to buy Lysol not being able to at Target hands sanitizer was everywhere everyone was squirting that stuff now turns out hand sanitizer is just not good for you absolutely and I still see people using hand sanitizer all over the place bottles of it like in corporate places it's really bad yeah it's once your skin is an organ and you're taking this stuff that just nukes all of your skin flora and you're just wiping your hands with it and rubbing it all over you like that's not good there's nothing good about that wash your hands fucking soap use them soap or not don't worry about as much it seems like the common sense part of health is kind of gone out the window I saw this article the other day which was talking about how kids are I remember like I went to a play I grew up in rural Connecticut and like the playground was like dirt right they're like monkey bars dirty you know and you're like you got dirty I
would like yeah and now it's like you know fake whatever that stuff is you know and this scientific study that I came upon when I was looking when I was working on this was like that actually that dirt is really good for you you know right surprise surprise we've evolved yeah we have evolved by you know dealing with germs well that's why she's always putting things in her mouth and touching things like it's actually probably good for them to be exposed to all these different bio bio things is different you know whatever it is bacteria and germs but it strengthens your immune system it's kind of common sense to you know like the past of our rule you know when you're a new mom and it's like if it fell on the floor for like I mean it's kind of gross but three seconds then it's right that one's probably not so good well a certain amount of exposure does strengthen your immune system and kids that are just living in these completely sterile environments you got to think that they have an atrophy to mean system because their immune systems not having a battle to stuff we just were terrified of what we don't know and that's part of the problem with having bad experts or experts that have really flawed approaches I mean that's what was so interesting writing this book because
I learned so much about biology and about physiology right like you were we all deal with disease so incredibly differently there is not a set you know pathogen a impacts people differently and why there isn't more of that why people don't lean into that mother nature mystery more and I'm talking about public health officials I don't understand because what has happened I see in society is it's created this fracture where you're either following a sort of set of scientific data which just came from a one lab or one group of scientists you're either following that or you're you're somehow having an alternate narrative that is actually like somehow harmful and it couldn't be more the opposite right it couldn't be more the opposite and when the shit hits the fan you need a kind of unity among people you need a sense of like okay well we all disagree and we all have different immune systems but what's best for the kind of greater the collective that's just gone now that is completely gone and I find
more than anything that people the Fauci hearings in point like instead of being like hmm maybe I need to change my mind about this people are like well if it serves my side I'm gonna go louder if it doesn't serve my side I'm gonna move on to something else yeah I've seen people talk about what a travesty bringing him from the Congress and having a question like that and how much good he's done I've seen people like making these statements online like what what are you seeing that I'm not saying because I'm not saying I'm saying someone doesn't want to tell the truth and someone's emails show a completely contradictory version of what happened versus what he's publicly stated before including when he was testifying before under oath so he really should be in charge of perjury but because of this whole 10 year immunity thing that he got he doesn't have to worry about any of that which is also weird because the immunity the the pardon is supposed to protect you from being prosecuted but then you're no longer supposed to have the Fifth Amendment yes I mean those legal things will play out they will take a lot of time you know and that is that will go on what I
also want to know is because none of these things happen in a vacuum right and it reminds me a little bit of that phrase you know when the rats jump off the Titanic as it was thinking because I have a little different experience I have watched different individuals certainly in the news carefully of like who's changing because I just want to learn from it don't report it I'm just I'm seeing people kind of decide oh maybe now I'll say a little more about and you know Fauci right because I do think that people end up having a they will go where the collective is going right if their party starts to turn okay and because I don't have right about politics at all I'm not involved in this but it's observationally it's interesting to me but for this reason in particular is that why was Fauci in charge who there are other people who are responsible for letting him be in charge like having studied the bureaucracy of what happens in a pandemic in a biological incident which this was there there's no reason that he was in charge there's not doctrine that put him in charge in charge it was kind of like a group okay he'll be in charge really the person in charge is the
secretary of HHS that is the person in charge in fact Joe I was invited to the White House last week right they asked me to come and bring some copies of biological war scenario I went did you meet with Trump I said I met with HHS I met the chief technology officer of HHS and they said in their original email you know we're the ones that would be in charge in the event of this kind of a thing which I know from having reported it so they're in charge why did Fauci get to take the torch why do you think I don't know but it should be looked at in other words he yes we all know that he wasn't charged and he was always but what I don't understand is in a billion actually trillion dollar HHS by the way has a budget that's twice the size of the defense department twice the size of the defense department and so and it defaulted to Fauci who was head of NIH then retired and then he was just chosen as like the president's lead medical counsel or medical professional so in other words a group of people put
him into that position who are they why what do they have to say about this yeah I'm sure part of it was just they needed someone to take the reins and he was more than willing to do it and probably confidently stated how he would handle it and what we're gonna do and how to go about it and didn't those people also have an opinion like what if they saw the John Stewart episode where you know like even if they didn't have an opinion before why didn't they have an opinion after and why why did everybody just fall into line like sheep that's really more interesting to me at this point in addition to the individual being held responsible for obviously misleading the public and creating a conspiratorial situation conspiring is simply to where more people working to conceal the truth it's an actual conspiracy well that's a weird thing to that people resist the term conspiracy and they think it's foolish it's a legitimate term I mean I think when people call other people conspiracy theorists they should just say they have an alternative narrative that's all
that is but an actual conspiracy is legal term well not only that there's a huge amount that you can point to in history where there were really people conspiring huge about stories and the reason why it's legally you know it's a really difficult situation and it needs to be looked at is because one person you know it can keep a secret right but when multiple people are involved and a conspiracy is involved you are actively working as a group to mislead and then it becomes easier more powerful more effective and so those other scientists you know we now know on the record that there were a dozen scientists that Fauci looked at looked to to give him information about lab leak versus wet market ten of them went with lab leak two of them leaned toward natural fauci wanted it to be natural spillover you know that's where you could say then there began and again I'm just talking legal terms I'm not a lawyer but they began to conspire to change the story right just look at the numbers yes look at the numbers yeah and so what about that you know because I think if
you're just gonna have a single fall guy you're really not going to be doing much for the future to have people you know a group of people say you know I don't want to be part of this conspiracy because that's an important individual stance that can be taken by many people and we see that among you said you have friends who don't want to kind of take a position because they don't want to be associated with that group or that group well you know if it starts in the center and there's responsibility for the group I think that makes people think more open-mindedly in the future well the problem was these people's career depended upon them towing line and if they stepped outside of found she's jurisdiction power they were fucked absolutely and he clearly did that to people like Che about a charia and all these different people that got kicked off of Twitter and maligned people that were like serious experts that disagreed with a lot of different aspects of the pandemic I mean people's they they attempted to ruin people's careers yeah I mean it's so bizarre that it comes around full circle and now the people whose career you tried to ruin has your job I mean that's like a cycle of revenge that is great you know
or by sure I mean that's great like for revenge TV but it's not great in a democracy well we're fortunate that it turned out that way but it didn't have to I mean if Kamala Harris had wanted wouldn't have it would have been a totally different administration and it would probably been the same people that were there during the bond administration plus and it's where the term conspiracy theory became a pejorative really during the Kennedy assassination because there's a bunch of people that didn't buy it and they got maligned they got labeled as conspiracy theorists so then that's when that term became this thing that you would apply to cukes because a conspiracy is a real thing conspiracy theorists like saying I'm a murder theorist oh murder you're a murder let's say you saw murder you ever seen a murder shut up why you worry about that it's really kind of same thing because people 100 like you could point to Enron you could point to the weapons of mass destruction thing and Iraq you there's a lot of conspiracies that have proven to be a group of powerful people who can spy or to mislead people it's a serious charge and when they take down mafia bosses they take them down on fraud racketeering and conspiracy exactly I mean it's just a
natural thing that people do to protect their own interests or to make money or to hide crime or whatever it is it's normal it's interesting if you change it around and you say they were conspiring it doesn't have the same stink right which is essentially what that group of scientists were doing they were conspot we now know from documents that we have seen revealed by the Senate in the past couple weeks that this group of scientists were conspiring to mislead the public that is just if you keep it simple on that and you even take the names out that is a serious and then you might say wait what were they conspiring about oh a pan the origin story of a pandemic which killed all these people you know deprived kids across America of education normal education for several years ruined businesses and kept people from seeing their loved ones there's also a conspiracy to terrify people to make it seem like the disease was more deadly than it was they knew that the infection or the death rate was much lower than
what they were claiming they also knew that it wasn't dangerous for kids and yet the kids kept saying that kids are dying they kept saying kids are gonna die everyone's gonna die they wanted us to be scared which is really terrifying it's a big part of it like how much could have been changed how much could that pandemic what how much different would have been if that wasn't the case if we had approached it the way we understand COVID now and if they'd said listen one of the big things is your immune system and America needs to be aware that we have very nutrient poor diets a lot of us we're not taking care of ourselves and ironically the thing is they want to do to isolate and stay indoors well outside is how you get vitamin D you get it from the sun it's the best method of getting vitamin D and it's actually good for immune systems to be outside so you're supposed to be taking care of yourself it's supposed to be vitamins and nutrients and how many more people would have survived if they just did that how much lower would that death rate have been if they had promoted the use of vitamin D along with K2 and magnesium all these different things like people need to exercise need to drink more water be more hydrated take care of self get sleep all these things affect your immune system and on top of that alcohol consumption went way up during covid because people were locked up at home and they were just getting hammered all the time I mean the whole thing like
it was a real disaster when you think it was a catastrophe the way it was handled the way it was a financial catastrophe for small businesses and restaurants but do you find that people just like sort of it's like it's like it's an island yeah yeah yeah there's a lot of people that don't want to think about it because it was so weird like I every now and then you know I watch a lot of fights for my job and because I love it but I'll watch fights that took place during the pandemic and you see all the corner people with masks on and they're screaming with masks and they pulled their mask down the yellow out instructions and they have to pull their mask back up from it's so weird to see a bunch of people just walking around with masks on it's so that to me is that that's a great encapsulation of how chaotic that scene was because the mass didn't work at all so they weren't doing anything good for you but yet everybody had to have one and you had to show that you on the right side by wearing a mask I sent a video to a friend of mine where group chat the other day of this really kooky left wing group that demands masks at all their gatherings and they had you know boxes of masks they're still they're all wearing
masks and they're talking with masks and then there's this left wing martial arts class that I follow on Instagram and they do their martial arts with masks on so they're training they're doing jiu-jitsu with masks on like this is hilarious this is so crazy but they're just committed to it and I say what I always said is that the mask is the left wing maga hat it's a maga hat it's just for the let people know that you're a progressive you're leftist I'm gonna wear a mask everywhere instead of wearing them these big meetings that they're doing they're wearing them when they're gathering they're like what what is this they're speaking with masks on so they're on stage nowhere near people with a mask on having speaking into a microphone with a fucking mask on in 2026 so it's like there's people that are like you know those people that didn't want admit that the war was over and they were like the Japanese guys are like yeah yeah that's the like they're like we're not giving up this is the worst they're going on like covid it's still a real thing and there's people that have like tik-tok channels where they're constantly talking about masking it's important to mask so I went into the LA County Department of Building and Safety a month ago and I had a sign that said we know the mask mandate is over but we strongly encourage you to wear a mask
true story well that's so crazy because what is the name of this organization that you went to was the building building and safety LA building and safety like where you have to go if you're getting a permit so these are the experts and how do they not know the data on masks because the data on masks is pretty clear they don't work they weren't effective so if they don't work and they didn't stop the spread the transmission or the infection rate why are you encouraging masks yep it's because you're encouraging an ideology that's what you're doing so one of the guys I interviewed for the book Admiral Brett Girard really interesting guy he was number two at HHS during the pandemic and do you remember when the cruise ship happened this is okay remember that the super spreader event oh yeah so Girard really interesting guy like first guy in a tiny town in Texas that goes to Harvard he's a pediatrician he seemed like kids die he became head of DARPA bioscientists like has this very interesting career really stand up guy he did a lot of interviews with me trying to help me understand this so and I was asking him about masks so after that cruise ship was quarantined there were
300 and some odd Americans on it that needed to be repatriated Girard sends like two top-level infectious disease experts in biohazard suits on military planes to bring them all back at this point they don't know whether how deadly this is like a couple weeks into the pandemic they come back they're in the quarantined at a military base in Texas and Girard trying to like ease public fear because he's that guy like he did not want people to be afraid he is seen in this news report all the all the cruise ship people are like behind the fence in this chain link fence because they're quarantined and Girard is like 15 feet over there talking to them and he doesn't have a mask on and this is when the first idea of the masks came out and I asked him and I said why didn't you have a mask on he said well first of all masks it's not just a mask don't work it's that you have to be trained properly like a mask can work if you have an N95 and it's put on your face and fitted to your face and it works for 15 minutes that's what he said and he said I have a unique nose and facial shape so the mask is
never gonna work on me so I just stood 50 feet away okay this is the number two at HHS and I said why didn't you tell us all that like okay first of all it's a little levity you know what I mean like that the number two guy in charge as big nose right and then he's the first guy to admit it and the matter answer he was the answer why didn't you tell him that oh he said I'm paraphrasing but he was like you know it was it was the equivalent of like orders from top down don't argue with what we're trying to accomplish I mean that was essentially what it is and when I asked him more about that you know it's like we had so much on our hands that we were trying like he specifically was trying to deal with 300 quarantine people and trying to prepare you know he also had people that were dying in Japan like the elderly on the ship they couldn't get brought back and so you I got the sense for me he's like a very dedicated public servant in my opinion and I could see from interviews with him in real time you're dealing with so much incredible intense responsibilities what I take issue with
after all the fallout and what I see from Fauci for example is that and again this is just my opinion but it seems to be that there are people who are actually really dedicated public servants who like are trying to find a solution feeling the shoes that they are in and then there's others who are looking maybe more for personal gain as you said the money the power the prestige and so I think one of the most disheartening things that have come out of the reveals of the Senate to me is like somebody like dr Fauci you know suggesting himself for these million dollar awards at a time when people aren't even able to see their dying grandmother and even though it's less legal it's more it speaks more to are you kidding me the motivation are you really getting you know like you have your staff campaigning for you to get these huge awards and I find it really because you know there was a review of the New York Times in the New York Times of my book and you know they actually gave low and behold they gave me this book a
great review like you got to read it but there's one thing I this is the reviewers so there's one thing I disagree with Annie Jacobson about she seems to think that like the government is actually filled with good guys I'm preparing I'm paraphrasing that but I do believe that show because I've interviewed so many individuals for all aid of my books more than a hundred and maybe it's just the people that I enjoy interviewing and I know how to like you know avoid the the sick of fans if you will or the people who are in it for the wrong reason but I feel like there are extraordinary number of people in our military in our state department in the intelligence community who are actually really capable people doing their job under extraordinary circumstances I agree with that I think if that wasn't the case we live in total complete chaos I think it takes just a few people that have power and that become tyrants that run things the way Fauci did that can ruin it for all the good people if you think about those other ten people imagine if they got to vote the ten people that didn't think that this was a natural spillover that thought it was a lab leak if they
got their say and they put that out there and we got to investigate that very early on well you know Fauci was like I asked all these experts and their consensus that it was most likely a lab leak okay well then you have a totally different narrative yes but that's not who he is the kind of person that wants that kind of power and wants that kind of influence and has their staff chasing after these million dollar awards that's the kind of person he is and unfortunately those are the type of people that become powerful those are the type of people that want to be president those are the type of people want to be senators most people are good people in everything most plumbers are good people most electricians most teachers are good people it's just it doesn't take much it just takes one bad cop and everybody hates cops I couldn't agree with you more and that's why I think that it's really unfortunate that all of the emphasis goes to one person in the whole party then either vilifies or puts that person on a pedestal when you've got all these other people who are really busting their chops so when you went to the White House and they wanted to talk to you about your book did they ask you questions like what should we do what is your advice what have you learned what what were those kind of questions I mean
it so they didn't ask me those yet because I was bringing them copies of the book right before it published okay right so they hadn't read it but what was interesting it was like this strange confluence of events because I also got asked to the Senate and I thought it was going to be about biological war it was like a group of nonpartisan senators who wanted to talk about the nuclear war book and that was a different situation they had read the nuclear war book it was very impactful Joe in you know not just national circles national national national security circles but international security shows I was invited to the Vatican to speak to the Cardinals because they were preparing something for the Pope on nuclear war I was invited to speak at the United Nations and this is not meant to boast as much as it's meant as a like what I think is interesting here is I am a narrative storyteller not a policymaker I'm not a government official but what I can do or what I try to do is tell you an interesting story and get your attention and so if my storytelling is getting this is what I was told at the United Nations for example
the lead diplomat from Austria on the new treaty said to me Annie your book nuclear war did something that we subject matter experts have forgotten to do which is just make sense to regular people and when things become rarefied and there's only the esoteric leaders making decisions and we spent our conversation talking about how flawed some of these people are that's like bad decision-making and I think what what the the positive part of all of this would be like and I know it sounds Pollyanna should say information is king knowledge is king but like it is because if you have a bit more information about a subject that seems really threatening I think you can make better judgments about what's going on most certainly so when you give these people his book and they got a hold of it did you have a timeline of returning to them and discussing with them some of the subjects it will we'll see this was last week Joe I mean this was literally last week and do they ask you any questions about
they just said we want to read your book because we want to we're thinking about policy that's so you just brought them the book and be delighted to know I got a tour of the EOB and you know it was very interesting and it was a short meeting yeah okay well at least you got it into their hands yeah when you're when you started this versus when you ended the book how much did it change your perspective well I mean like I told you I am an eternal optimist but this is very frightening I mean nuclear at least you have the sense of if it happens we're all going out in the flash that's what I learned from nuclear right and that quote from Nikita Khrushchev about nuclear weapons where he says he wrote actually he said this to JFK I believe where he said the survivors would envy the dead I found that quote to be applicable to biological war not nuclear war we're all gonna be dead right but biological war is very very sinister because of the malevolent nature involved and when I found a document in the
defense departments declassified documents about a threat spectrum of WMD that that was sort of the icing on the cake so it's like it shows the threats on a scale nuclear weapons being the most destructive by far but very close second was biological weapons and even more unnerving is it says biological weapons are the greatest overall threat what's really scary is that no nation is really implemented them on a wide scale you mean you mean ever use them right yeah I mean but the lab leak is up look there need there is a treaty number two at the State Department former Mallory Stewart said to me there is no enforcement in the treaty and that's what that's what you need to have when you have if the attention could be brought on how dangerous these labs are and how dangerous it is that people may be doing genetic engineering under the guise of prophylactic engineering when in fact they're doing really dangerous things if you have a treaty outlawing that and everybody's agreeing to allow for
transparency that's what treaties really do it's not just a handshake it needs an enforcement right but you were talking about the treaty that we had where Russia just was like yeah we'll sign that that was in 1972 so in other words the nuclear treaty allows for us to go into the facilities of the other nuclear normed nations not North Korea and well now the treaties fallen by the wayside but we could look at them and we could look at their weapons and they could look at our weapons and it limits you know certain number of warheads and more than anything I learned from subject matter experts about the treaties is that what it does is it creates back channels right it creates dialogue between adversaries and enemies like here I begin the book with an explosion at the vector lab Russia's BSL 4 lab in Siberia and the reason where there's an accident and then the pathogen gets out and the reason I do that is because there actually was an explosion at the vector lab in 2019 and it was in a building that nothing got out but what the subject matter experts told me was that in 2019 we the Americans had
friends had a friendly relationship with scientists Russian scientists in vector so when it happened everyone was on the phone not just the red phone at the State Department but their own phone or WhatsApp saying to the scientists hey what's the skinny over there you know and you could kind of get a sense of the level of danger because in the event of an accident you could contain something in 24 hours but if nobody's talking there's no containment in the situation right now with America just like pulling back from you know essentially its allies and from with a real de-emphasis I certainly feel on diplomacy that opens up a really dangerous situation when you're not talking to anyone in the event of an accident do you think that they're going to make any changes based on what you wrote about did you get a sense of that that they're willing to make changes those were some of the discussions and I'll be like a little like more at the Senate I mean one of the issues this is where nuclear and bio kind of could align I
was told in terms of future treaties right so one of the concepts on the table if we get into a new nuclear treaty is something called no first use and FU and America has never agreed to say it will never use nuclear weapons first interestingly it's never said that we have to reserve the right which is crazy because what the whole point of deterrence is we'll never use them okay but we have never said said that China however has said we will we will China has declared and FU no first use so given what happened in covid in China a situation could be imagined whereby a treaty involving weapons of mass destruction nuclear and bio could entwine somehow like oh these are the two greatest threats these are the two greatest existential extinction level threats potentially the concern all of us so let's get into a treaty that involves both of these weapons of mass destruction China you have said no first use on nuclear how about you see and
then things become a bit of an exchange and so that's where you can get information yeah these are diplomats doing their job maybe the public isn't going to learn the in and outs immediately but we might learn later it's like I said you always freak me out every time I talk to you it's like some new thing I have to think about for months on them I want to talk to you about your area 51 book because in the time since you released that book when we first talked a lot has changed and you know what is your take on all these you know UAP disclosure videos and leaks and the things that the government has trickled out slowly most of the people in the UFO community are very like I said a UFO community with air quotes are very unsatisfied by that stuff but at least there's some information it's being it's sort of changed the tone in the zeitgeist of what this subject is it's no longer this thing that you are afraid of talking about because you don't want to be labeled as a fool I mean what is
my position on UFOs in general or the community around UFOs in the changing well first of all UFOs in general what's your position on that so my position is my position has never changed despite all the stuff that has come out because my perspective is limited to my experience writing the area 51 book and knowing and talking to first-hand people who were really clear with me and I looked at the documents about the CIA's deception campaign starting in the 1950s with the U2 to use the UFO phenomenon which was just taking off in the 50s as cover for UFO for U2 flights and then later the A12 Oxide flights so you know Colonel Slater who ran area 51 would tell me about you know they would run up they would run a U2 which was flying at 70,000 feet at the time nothing could fly at 70,000 feet people would see it because these really really long wings looks like a giant flying X in the sky people would say I see a UFO and they would kind of say ooh that might have been a UFO like that would be the and Colonel Slater knew about that so does that mean every UFO sighting since 1950
was a U2 flight of course not of course not but I am aware of that use of the phenomenon as cover for the CIA and that led to a lot of research and reporting and other information from me about how the CIA uses deception campaigns and so I have never changed my position on that I also have a lot more information which is probably a whole other podcast about all that reporting I did but maybe the best analogy for me and listen I never I know a lot of the people in that UFO community they've had many conversations with everyone from shock fillet to how put off but for me personally so after having taken a trip to Africa recently to study predatory animals I got really into following trail cams on X you know that's no you don't know about this no oh my god there cameras all over the world set up on trails so I have like I follow like lions and leopards and you know right off like all these animals that you would never bears mooze deer you gotta follow them it's incredible I do see some trail camera footage because
I'm a hunter okay follow a bunch of hunters on Instagram I see trail camp footage like this is a bunch of trail camp footage like Mount lions attacking elk and that was very fascinating with export development Canada Canadian businesses are competing leading and winning in more international markets like how agro food businesses are strengthening global food supply and critical minerals are powering industries of the future their ambition can't be contained and with EDC behind them neither can their growth export development Canada is the financial partner for Canadian businesses going global visit EDC for more but so you just okay so this is my point so in my algorithm my ex-algorithm it's great because on top of like nuclear weapons by large I have like leopards and lions and bears you know and they're all still images or owls or big one and they're incredible because they're just captured it's like it seems like a Werner Herzog you know image right because their animals looking at the camera in such an incredible way I literally just stare at them in delight and then of course the algorithm gives me more and more and more but my point of that is I feel like with all this magic and mystery that you can see that
you could never have seen before snow leopards in Pakistan they thought they were just a handful it turns out they're not thanks to the trail camps my thought is where are the aliens why haven't I seen them on the trail camps well maybe there's sophisticated enough to know what these devices are maybe they're also sophisticated enough to completely cloak themselves which we've already got methods of doing that obviously started off with the stealth bomber but there's also there's a technology where they put an LED screen over the bottom of something and that screen projects what's behind it so it essentially makes it invisible or your cloaking mechanism like the predator had yeah so if that's us if we figured out something like that and this is something that's coming here from another dimension or another galaxy I would imagine they could hide I mean to that point I find the most interesting concept is something that Jacques valet explained to me I've this has to be a decade ago where he said the problem with UFOs is they're not a military problem they're an intelligence community
problem for precisely the reason you're talking about like if you're actually talking about extra terrestrial beings they're certainly going to be a lot more intelligence than us and certainly if they got here and so his idea was that where that's where I think a lot of that idea invisibility and again that's like I'm using the word poetically comes up right that that that that an extra terrestrial being would be would be in tell you wouldn't it wouldn't be visible to our spectrum it's not like hardware like military hardware right what does you take all these videos then of these objects you think these things are some top secret military program I mean what I I've seen them but again I enter into it you know sometimes when you have a bias and mine is certainly biased towards disinformation so I'm just totally aware of it and it's also it's not that interesting to me it just actually really isn't and you know I've got all these other serious interests and but I do call up people I know who might have a more interesting take than me who do not have the horse in the race of absolutely
being convinced that aliens are among us so I would for example I'll call up fighter pilots and talk to them and I'll talk to someone an astronaut who's on the ISS Jeff Ashby who's married to my cousin Mary and it's interesting to hear them talk about the possibility so I think to your point and these are people who do look at the objects more also sometimes from their military training background and I will say that there has been a shift from 15 18 years ago when I first wrote Area 51 was reporting it where it was definitely like a like a stigmatized subject to a lot of really legitimate thinker people that didn't have an opinion about it before being more open to the idea and that kind of thing I find really interesting those are conversations I like having but that really changed with the New York Times article right I don't know because I felt like that article was written by a lot of and interviewed a lot of people who already were very serious believers yes but it was in the New York Times that was the difference is that the New York Times is taking it seriously and so people that were you know not online going through 4chan or reddit or whatever
looking for weird obscure stories these people were confronted with it in the great lady so they're reading this you know yeah like super respectable newspaper the most respectable newspaper arguably in the world and they're talking about it and they have you know photographs from video from the Go Fast video and the FLIR video yeah I mean you know ten years ago I would have told you listen there's no way the Defense Department could have a threat in its airspace and not be dealing with it and my position on that has changed and I'll tell you why specifically so in addition to being invited to the White House and the Senate last week I was also invited to come talk to DARPA which is like you know what DARPA is which was very interesting because I wrote a book on DARPA called the Pentagon's Brain Ten Years ago and I couldn't get DARPA to call me back I mean I literally had to interview retired DARPA people and then here they are saying would you come to a Q&A with us on your bio book and I was like wow times have changed and one of the things that they were seriously worried about so I did a Q&A but before that they said would you like to come sit in
on like some of the smartest people you know talking about situations that are coming up right now you can come to the unclassified part of it I said by all means so I went there and there was serious concern about AI enabled bio right so this seems like a digression here but this is what I'm getting at I'm leaning in because ten years ago I also would have told you DARPA you know is the leading science and technology military agency in the world no one is more advanced I would have said that with authority and I believed it and after attending this DARPA session and listening to them talk about how concerned they are about AI enabled bio and talking about how there is talk among the six CEOs of pulling the plug on AI enabled bio but they have to be able to get the six CEOs to agree first it really took my breath away because I went I am actually listening to the new reality that the CEOs of these AI companies have more power to make decisions about technology than the Department of
Defense so now that's a long-winded way of getting at your UFO question my like no if there was a threat coming into the airspace of the Defense Department it would just not be stood for and we would be doing something about it now I'm I'm my perspective on who's in charge is shifting a little bit yeah that's a terrifying thought for a lot of people that these CEOs of these tech companies these unelected people have that kind of power over our society well you want to know Sam Altman's interviewed in the book shall I tell you a story about what I was able to make chat GPT do sure there is a component of biological plant biological catastrophe planning whereby the strategic national stockpile gets released you might say what is the ever heard of the strategic national stockpile no it's classified the name is not classified but that stockpile what's in it where it is is classified it's in underground bunkers around the country okay it contains medical countermeasures interestingly that's where a lot of the
ventilators were for covid so quietly the strategic national stockpile parts of it were released during covid that's where they came from they don't this is kind of like keeping on the lowdown why because part of the planning is that in the event that anarchy and insurrection takes over guess what's gonna be attacked the strategic national stockpile America is a country of 500 million guns imagine if you find out wait a minute there's a stockpile there that's the medical countermeasure that the vaccine or the antibiotic that might keep myself or my family alive I'm on it right that's the planning that's probably would happen so that's why these locations are classified so I asked chat GPT to tell me the location of the strategic national stockpile closest to where I live in Los Angeles and of course the first round of answers I got was that's classified but I'm a journalist I know how to really piss off chat GPT and I gave it lots of commands and eventually chat GPT gave me the location of the
strategic national how did you maneuver around that well I mean what did you say to I have a lot of like it the more nomenclature you give chat GPT the more it looks in different places so I was giving it code words not classified code words but just words I know and then I was also challenging it which is interesting because chat GPT seems to get really angry a few kind of doubt its intelligence that's what I found right seriously like yes try it okay so I do this I get it to tell me where this stockpile is I tell some colleagues who are friends with who are colleagues with Sam Altman they say Sam wants to have a discussion with you I talk to Sam I tell him what I was able to do he asked some questions including how do you know that was the location well it's a location with a perimeter fence around it and a rail car line that goes in and not out so that's where you drive this stockpile into it and I also watch chat GPT think so I was keeping track of where it was finding things and it found the information I write this in the book it found the information searching
through a trillion bits of data and finding that a bureaucrat by accident listed it five years ago in an earthquake emergency manual on page like 434 okay so I told this to Sam and then that information went away and that's why I reported in the book but the big takeaway is precisely your point that makes you nervous about the six CEOs of AI companies that they don't know what they don't know Sam Altman did not know you could figure out you could make his product find classified information I told him I did and then it was changed and so I took that to a number of subject matter experts who advised the president not just this president but other presidents on bio and they shared with me similar concerns like they go to the CEOs of these AI companies and say I was able to make clawed to this I was able to make chat GPT do this and the CEO goes oh my god and changes it but how about those bad guys out there yeah how about the fact that anybody has access to what's essentially the smartest thing that's
ever existed yeah it's a whole different set of scary they're gonna write on that next I'll come back to you Joe without one well any thank you so much it's always great talking even though you scared out of me thank you so much I appreciate you very much and I appreciate your work very much did you do the audio version of your book I sure did it's fantastic I'm very happy about that biological war any Jacobson go get it folks go get terrified thank you so much I'm gonna jump right by break