but I don't want to force or rush whatever is next. And I know that there must be something emerging because the one thing I feel that I've leaned into in 11 years of business is that when the financial tides recede, it must mean something. And I think a lot of business owners will probably go, oh no, I'm losing work, I better double down. I better go out, I better ramp up my sales process.
I better like launch more stuff. I think they would have the opposite reaction. And for some reason, I just think if I'm not getting inbound interest or increase, maybe I'm meant to retreat. I just get really curious.
I think I've learned not to treat this time as a crisis and just to get curious and trust. Of course, something is gonna emerge on the other side. I just don't know what it is yet. And I don't want to force the timing of that.
What's next? This is a question we're all having to ask and answer more frequently. I'm Jenny Blake, your host of the Pivot Podcast and author of Pivot, the only move that matters is your next one. For show notes from this episode, visit pivot method dot com slash podcast.
If change is the only constant, then let's get better at it. Here we go. Hello, my friends. Welcome back.
I am so excited to have my friend Adrian Klopak turn in the mic tables today. We had so much fun recording our last episode together. 283, what are you here to do? That at the end of that conversation, Adrian said, wait a second, you were asking me all the questions.
There were so many follow ups that I wanted to ask you in return. And that is the funny part about being a coach is that you get so used to deep listening. It's awkward almost to talk about oneself. So coaching and podcasting have a lot in common in that we get to be the ones asking all the questions.
So we had the idea to do this one today where Adrian, as many of you know from that prior episode 283, he was my very first coach, or at least technically second coach because my first coach Eric referred me to him. And we've been friends and colleagues and collaborators for over a decade now, since he's the founder of a path that fits career and life coaching. And he runs a fantastic career pathfinder flagship course that I'm always sending people to. So with that, Adrian, I'm going to turn the hosting duties over to you.
Thanks, Jenny. Yes, this is super exciting to be able to interview you. As you said, I was left wanting to know your answers to all the questions you were asking me. So now we get to dive in and also hope to give all of our listeners a deeper look into who you are and what you're about.
I love it. Well, thank you so much. As you said, sometimes awkward to be on the receiving end like to be the interviewee. And I was telling you before we record that it's almost 300 episodes now with this show.
And sometimes I get stuck. I feel like everyone must be so sick of me by now. It's been six years of pivot podcast in the book, almost the same. And I guess just sometimes run out of ideas.
So I'm so curious to know what's on your mind, what you think would be interesting. I don't know how anybody could get sick of you, honestly. You're delightful. Yeah, what's on my mind?
So the first thing I was thinking is just to think about and reflect on all of the things that you've done in the career space. You've worked in training and development at Google. You wrote Life After College, then pivot for navigating career change. You just wrote free time to help business owners and find more joy in their businesses.
You have podcast speaking engagements. You've led and lead career development training programs inside of corporations. You run your own business. I mean, I don't know.
Am I leaving anything out? There's a lot. So I'm curious how you describe what you do. Like if you were to meet somebody new and they say, you know, what do you do?
What do you say to that? I used to say I'm an author. I think because I heard Ramit Sadie once said he did a split test. And if he told people he was a writer, he got less of a reaction than when he said he was an author.
And I used to kind of shake off the term writer as well because I'm not somebody that I don't sit down and write every day. But the books, my three books, have been the pillars of my career. Everything good that has happened in my life has happened as a result of writing these three books. And prior to that, of course, working on Google, it's a very good thing and continues to be as I still partner with them.
But I was always doing side projects that were about creative expression. And in my early 20s, I read something about Buddhism that there's three types of love in the world. Love with them and for oneself as the relationship of a parent to a child and one to many. And even when I read that back then, I knew that one to many was my calling.
And in fact, I've never been somebody. I'm almost 40, as crazy as that is to say. I'll turn 39 in October. I've never had the desire to even have kids.
That could change, but I have this deep urge to dedicate myself to one to many, to go through things and then somehow synthesize them, process them, systematize them and share them with the world. So back in those early days, right around the time I met you, I think the reason I was so drawn to coaching and to what you were doing at that time was this idea of just being as helpful as possible to as many people as possible. And even though I don't always know the name of what the content will be, I know that what I do is try to be helpful, try to give people a little bit of sense of relief and inspiration and sometimes really practical tools. So that's my very long answer to what do you do beyond author and podcaster.
So I hear creative expression, love, wanting to help, wanting to impact many people. And I'm curious, like, what do you most want for people? How do you want to impact? Well, it's funny so much is coming up from around the time I met you, I went to coach training in 2008 through CTI, the same program you did, because you were singing its praises.
And at that time they asked the billboard question. I remember saying what I would put on the billboard is wake up that I wanted people to wake up to their lives. Now it's shifted a little bit. I think a reason that permission is such a big theme in free time is that I just want people to just drop a lot of the stress and pressure and I feel that it's less is more.
So I've now emerged, wake up, sure there's so many places we could take that. I think what do I most want now? I just want to provide relief and I want people to feel a sense of relief and ease and joy and possibility because the world is complicated and hard at so many moments and life is hard. And so I guess I just want to provide a little bit of relief wherever I can in the ways that I'm uniquely suited to do.
Yeah, we can all use that for sure right now. I also think this question, what do you do is so awkward. And I've heard some friends say, you got to give your elevator pitch, like I free people's time for their best work. I don't know, I like to say author and podcaster because that is what I do.
That is the umbrella or at least like the roots of the tree that rant out to everything else. And then someone can ask, oh, what are your books or what is your podcast about? But I feel like it's this entry point and I don't know about you. I wonder what you say when people say what do you do.
But I never felt like one title was going to do it for me. Coach, author, speaker, this, that, the other. So I don't know. The reason I'm saying that now is sometimes I get self-conscious.
Like, oh, I'm not giving the sizzle reel of what do you do. You know, I help weak people up to their best lives. I always just felt so corny saying things like that. Yeah, me too.
I can't do it with a straight face. I do think the what do you do question, I've started to respond to that almost like a politician responds to a question that they don't really want to be asked, which is to talk about what they do, really want to talk about. Yes. That question is just sort of the entry point to a conversation and I kind of take it where I want to go based on whatever I'm feeling in the moment.
But often, you know, saying to work on text or personal, I guess I'd say I help people find a path that fits. And then usually that gets enough curiosity for a conversation to start about whatever. I like that. I also like answering with, well, right now I'm really focused on building my two podcasts.
You know, I'll say something like, I'll just shift it a little bit. So right now here's what I want to. I wanted to go back to what you're saying about that feeling like I know this is my calling. You were talking about love of many and knowing feeling this is my calling.
And I wonder if you could describe how you knew what that feeling was like, how it all sort of crystallized for you. I think it was just little moments of clarity. When I was young, when I was 11, I started this family newspaper and I had subscribers far and wide and I, you know, it charged for postage. And that was an example of what my dad says.
He gave this really beautiful toast at the free time launch party in New York City. And his unifying theme, he said, Jenny has always been a communicator. And I think now that's kind of ringing in my ears because even when I was at Google, the thing I'm proudest of is co-creating and launching that global dropping coaching program career guru and training over a thousand people in my first year, it was about reach and weirdly not in some ego way. Like, I could probably have a much bigger reach if I was on social media and really actively sharing intricacies of my life.
But I knew that the work I did, I just wanted to help it reach as many people as I could. And even part of my decision to leave Google was me thinking, could I reach more people through my new book and my blog, Life After College, then I can't internally with the work I'm doing internally within Google because in people operations, I was really serving however many employees we had at that time. Of course, my role could have evolved and become more external, but kind of tipped the scales for me. So it was always just little moments of that of feeling how rewarding it was when blog posts would get shared far and wide or when things would resonate with more people than just a few.
And you've always been so courageous about making big moves, leaving Google, taking time off to write books and forgo the consistent income that you had before. How do you find that courage? How do you deal with the doubts and fears that I'm sure I know from talking to you if you get freaked out at the precipice of these things? So what's your process for dealing with your fears and finding the courage to do new things?
That's funny is that in the beginning the process was crisis. It was just, I'm going through an existential crisis every two years. And as I started to realize that my cycle of going through what felt like a personal skies falling style crisis was happening with such a regularity, I realized, oh, maybe this is just how I am. Like, and not in a bad way, just maybe this is my creative rhythm involves this like very intense sort of death and rebirth cycle.
And once I accepted that, I could start to build it more intentionally. So leaving Google was a big one. Two years later, the crisis that sparked me even coming up with the pivot method just realizing this pattern. And that's why I adopted the mantra of changes the only constant, let's get better at it.
So part of writing pivot and getting better at it was actually me and it wasn't until a year or two ago, my friend Laura Garnett said, as you said, Adrian, she's like, you always go through these dips. She's like, ever since I've known you, you have these dips where you're like, I'm completely out of money. I don't know what's next, but it's okay. And a willingness, I think a willingness to sit through how uncomfortable that can be.
I'm even in another moment of it now. When the pandemic hit was another one and I'm in one now where finances always kind of relates to money for me. Finances are so lean, but I don't want to force or rush whatever is next. And I know that there must be something emerging because the one thing I feel that I've lead into in 11 years of business is that when the financial tides recede, there's an episode of that in free time, it must mean something.
Like, and I think a lot of business owners would probably go, oh, no, I'm losing work. I better double down. I better go out, I better ramp up my sales process. I better like launch more stuff.
I think they would have the opposite reaction. And for some reason, and maybe this makes me more of a hobbyist than a business owner, I just think if I'm not getting inbound interest or increase, maybe I'm meant to retreat. So the long answer to your question is, I just get really curious. I think I've learned not to treat this time as a crisis and just to get curious and trust now that it is a recurring pattern in my life and work trusted.
Of course, something is gonna emerge on the other side. I just don't know what it is yet. And I don't want to force the timing of that. I hear so much trust in your approach.
So I was asking, how do you deal with the fears and the unknown? And I hear in that just so much trust that something will emerge and your faith that it's gonna be there and that you don't want to do things reactionary. You want to do things that are really connected to inspiration and rightness. Part of where that trust comes from is that when I've tried anything else, I just fall apart.
So I just burn out, I spin out. Like it just doesn't actually work for me. And anytime I've tried to do anything other than what I just described, I just fall apart. You and I have talked over the years and even in episode 283 about being sensitive and being highly sensitive and empathic.
And sometimes that sensitivity is awesome because it leads to a refined sense of intuition and faith and trust, like you said. And sometimes the sensitivity is gnarly because it's like there's so little wiggle room. I start going the wrong way and I just get slammed with some kind of health thing or life crisis or some message from the universe. Like I'm really not going the right way.
And it's so it's the blessing and a curse. I don't even want to call it a curse, but it's just like it simply doesn't work if I try to push the river in any other way. So speaking of pivots, I'm curious, what are the best career pivots you've made and what went into making those decisions? Well, I love this question.
What's the best ones? It's like people say with their kids, like they're all great, you know? What first comes to mind is any time I've bet on myself, I'm proud of that. So I'm proud of betting on myself when I left Google, not because I don't like Google.
I love them so much of what I have in my life to this day is thanks to Google. And it did take a lot of courage to say, can I build something that would make me as fulfilled if not more or as happy if not more or have as much reach and impact, if not more than Google? It's like, what was I thinking? Like I don't even know.
So people would always ask me in the early days, do I regret leaving? And I never had any regrets. I think because I knew that I was, I think a lot of the time of leaving Google and even now it's about stripping things away so I can do more of my best work and my unique thinking and creative output. So that's what I'm proud of.
Even now, this whole free time direction, I still feel like I'm in this weird state of limbo. The book didn't necessarily become an instant mega hit best seller, that's okay. I always leave room 1% of magical thinking. But I'm like, did I make the right decisions?
Did I spend too much money on this? Do I have a viable business model? Those questions all come rushing back in, but I'm still proud of creating the most beautiful book I could possibly create with my abilities visually and content wise. So it doesn't mean the book is perfect, but I really gave it everything I had all the way.
And those are the things I get proudest of. Beautiful. We'll be right back just after this. What about the other side?
What are some of the lessons you've learned? Potentially the really hard earned painful lessons that you've learned that maybe you can pass along some of that wisdom to me and to us? Well, this one's let's call it in progress. I have a gremlin that says, or an inner critic that says, oh, well these cycles of death and rebirth and financial instability, that's just a shortcoming.
Like if I was more disciplined or had a slightly different business model or worked a little harder, like maybe I wouldn't need these dips at all. And so that's something I'm still sitting with is like just trying to not kid myself about the way I operate because I need to be so extreme. That's maybe something on my mind. Something that I've learned, I think one of my earliest yoga teachers who was at Google, that's right matter through my weekly class there.
She's the one that said to me, you've always known what to do. Just put one foot in front of the other. Just take the one next step. And that wisdom has been around for a while in various forms.
Carl Jung said it to someone he was writing a letter to. He said, just do the next right thing. So I think what I've learned is just how magical it is, truly, that you start walking the road. My friends and I call it the yellow brick road that when we were talking about moving to New York, we felt like New York was beckoning us with this yellow brick road.
And every time we would take one step, the next set of beautiful magical bricks would appear of opportunities and people in serendipity. And so the thing that I love and I lean into is really trusting serendipity in moments of change. And all you gotta do is take the one next step and then the next beautiful things happen out of nowhere. And so I love being open to surprise.
And I love even traveling alone for this exact reason. Like I have no clue what's gonna happen. That's the really fun part about pivoting and navigating change, just being open to all that and curious and receptive to all of it. That is such a good lesson.
I felt that in my own career and seen it with so many clients too, that they can't see the bigness of what's to come often, but they can see or feel that next right step. And then once they step forward, all of a sudden, or maybe not all of a sudden, but soon enough, there are all these possibilities and opportunities that weren't visible from where they were standing had they not taken that step. So that is such a great reminder. And then as coaches, don't you feel like so much of what I did, like I don't have one on one clients right now, at least I have a small vox or coaching pilot if any of you are interested, let me know.
But I feel like so much of what coaches do is hold the space and say, just take the next step, I promise you, things are gonna happen because I've seen it over and over with so many clients. But when you're the one doing that in the moment, you think nothing is gonna happen. And it's almost you got frustrated or patience runs out. And sometimes all the coach does it says, just keep going, I believe in you, trust me, it's gonna happen, something's gonna pop because you've seen it happen so many times.
That's right, so true, so true. Yeah, we all need a little encouragement, affirmation, support to do what you've done, trust yourself, right, follow what you know to be true or you think to be true. And then I think coaches and friends, so much of trusting myself comes with that close inner circle of people like you and various friends, family, mastermind groups that I'm fortunate to have, who also affirm. I think that none of this happens in a vacuum.
It happens through so many little conversations where I go, this is what I'm thinking, am I nuts, am I insane? And then the friends that I love are the ones that are like, no, this is the best idea ever. Like you know, bet on yourself or this is what I see in you. And this is what I hear in your voice when you talk about this and therefore go for it because they're reflecting some gift that I can't even see or some palpable excitement or some shift in my own energy.
So it's so much of it happens as this multiple two-way conversations. And I feel like I wouldn't be able to decide or navigate all of this stuff on my own. I'm definitely not one of those people. That's like so confident that I always know exactly who I am and what I'm meant to do.
No, it happens so much through conversation. One of my all-time favorite coaching activities is to ask clients to ask their friends, family, most trusted people, colleagues for feedback about what they see, what their colleagues, friends, family see as their strengths for exactly this reason, that it's so valuable to get a reflection of who we are from the people around us because hopefully they do really know and see who we are. And it's so touching and valuable as it relates to career direction and career change to get that feedback from others. Oh, I love that you do that.
I'm always so nervous and shy to send those emails or surveys, but I haven't done one in like, I don't know the last time I did something like that, but it is such a cool thing to do. So I want to talk about recession and career change because it is June 30th, 2022. And it looks like we're in or headed in to a recession. And I'm curious how being in recession changes the way you think about career changes and pivots.
One thing that I'll say is that this question tends to come up when we're in it, headed into one, or there's speculation about one. And as soon as we're all through whatever this is, you can already actively think about and be strategic about the next one. So it's not a mystery. Some say that it'll happen every 10 years.
I don't know if it's different for different countries, like we're talking about this here at Stateside in the US. I was very intentional. So the 2008 recession, I was working on Google, but it was part of my experience as a manager that we had to let half my team go. It was this horrible experience.
And I saw how much Google contracted during that time, even though I was secure and I had a job, I also saw how it affected people around me and their jobs and their industries in such a major way. So when I was thinking about my body of work and my next big idea, I wanted to make sure that it was recession-proof and counter-cyclical, meaning could this topic or theme be as relevant in a recession as not. So if my theme was gonna be like the perks of luxury travel, is that resilient to a recession or a pandemic? No, it really isn't.
But pivot, navigating change, as I was playing with that idea, I realized, oh, pivoting is more relevant even during a recession or when there's contraction. You pivot or you get pivoted sometimes. And so that gave me the confidence to proceed with the idea knowing that, okay, it can be relevant when times are good and it can be as relevant when they're not. Same thing with free time.
Of course, free time feels like a luxury, but also the great resignation or the great shakeup or reconsidering how we work. I mean, part of the reason I put the rush on the book project and got it done from proposal to published in one year, which is incredibly fast, was because the trend is happening now. The wave of reflection and reimagining and readjusting to our lives is happening now. So I would encourage people, you might be kind of caught on your heels in this exact moment in terms of how much savings you have or your expertise, but that doesn't mean it has to stay that way.
We'll be right back just after this. For me, where I'm at right now, I mean, in all of my worst fear imagining about what it would be like to run a small business, I couldn't have dreamt that all my speaking gigs, my most consistent biggest source of income would get canceled, not just for a week or a month, but two years and counting. And that's essentially for me, how it's shaken out. Now again, I have to own my piece of this, which is that I'm also not pounding the pavement, trying to fill in.
Not like doubling down and trying to contact speaking agents and trying to like absolutely ensure that I have enough work because I don't really run my business that way, as we said. So I'm in a position now where I'm like, this is so bizarre. Like my number one most consistent source of cash flow, the cushion of my entire business and my entire life that pays for all my essentials, the tide is out. And so what is this like?
And again, if you don't rush to fill the space, I do think that there's interesting information that emerges. And in that episode I recorded on financial tides receding, it says if when the financial tides recede, there's all these little treasures on the shore where the water used to be. And you could actually start to pick through them if you don't panic, that we will all reach a point where we actually do have to come up with backup income or side hustle or we have to do uncomfortable things just to bridge the gap. But I tend to think it's also a time that's really ripe for reimagining, reimagining, what's next?
And that we could all ask like, what is this time trying to teach me specifically? You said one of your favorite coaching questions, one of mine is like, if you're the main character in a movie and we're all sitting there with our popcorn and this is the most sensible scene of the whole thing. Like what is the hero of the movie supposed to do right now? What are they meant to learn?
What blind spots are they missing? What are they meant to persevere, push through, where we all start cheering on the other side? So to get really personal with you, what's your answer to that question right now? Given what you said, the loss of these speaking engagements, which is huge in the space and then I agree with you, that's an amazing invitation that you're inviting us into and I wanna invite you into it.
Well, yeah, I know, I don't know, honestly, I don't know. I sometimes think one of my qualities that I talk about less is stubbornness. I'm just stubborn, like I really love podcasting. It's the thing I love the most, doing what we're doing right now.
And I feel so stubborn in my commitment to keep using my voice in this way, but also turn it into some kind of viable business engine. And sometimes it feels like I'm a far way off from that right now. In my dream movie, the hero, podcaster, persevere, and it works. Like I don't have to add too much clutter to my life.
I get to keep doing what I'm doing. If my podcasts were 10x the size, I genuinely wouldn't be doing NIO to more work, maybe other than answering inbound emails and things like that, but I'd be producing the same number of episodes, I'd be having the same style conversations. They would just be able to be a viable part of my business model. Or same thing if my book, if I could get a tipping point for my book.
So the stubborn movie character in me wants to persevere and not fill my calendar with clutter, just in a panic to make money. That sounds so clear. But I don't know if it will work, Adrian. I know.
I ask this all the time on the podcast and I think listeners and I was like, get sick of me hearing me saying it. But I'm like, I always ask guests, like, well, how do you know when you're just being delusional? And if there's only one president of the United States, not everyone can make it to the NBA to play basketball. Like, I can say what I want all day long, but I don't currently have perfectly calibrated of at what point is it time to pivot to really be ironic about today's topic and this name of this even podcast.
I remember you when I think it was around the time we first met. And I remember you were trying to launch or write life after college or trying to launch your own business coaching. And you were at Google and you were like hustling in all these other ways to try to bring in extra money, to launch these other businesses and scrappy. And yeah, you were balancing the short-term financial needs and necessities realities of your situation with those longer-term dreams.
And you did it. And look where you are now. And I think the recession, the pandemic, we also saw this in the pandemic, the extra time and space for some people that did afford to think about what they really want to do and then put time and energy into building those things, that happened. That is this phenomenon that's true of recessions of pandemics of sort of big upheaval is that if we can't do the thing in the immediate short-term, maybe we have to get a little scrappy and figure out how to float ourselves, how to sustain our lives, but also not to forget that bigger dream and to use the lull to be building that bigger thing, just as you were saying, so that when the tides turned, we're right there, we're well-positioned to have that lift and that growth that we've been working so hard to achieve.
So I just totally believe in you and can see that happening. It was interesting. I was part of a mini mastermind. And every single one of us had spent more on our business in that year of 2021 than in the previous decade.
So it was not just me, it was interesting. It was this theme of a bunch of us going, huh, how interesting, yeah, I have more time, I have less client work and deciding to double down and to say like, okay, I'm actually gonna make my biggest investments right now. That is what I do think is interesting about recession. You know, they say like, of course, a recession is a good time to buy stocks and things, everything's on sale or buy real estate.
Now it's a little wonky in different markets. And of course, the whole point of dollar cost averaging is that you're not trying to time the market, but it is interesting that if you do have cash reserves, a recession is a time where you can sometimes get better deals or new, innovative, interesting businesses start. And if you can make it through it, then that's really something special. And so even though I spent all my cash reserves last year in 2021, it is interesting to know like that during a recession, you can plant seeds if you're strategic with them that you don't know if they're gonna grow, but it's almost like the soil gets turned over in a different way than when everything and everybody was just coasting.
Absolutely. So as we wrap up one more question, recession or not, just big picture, generally speaking, sort of perennial question. If you had to boil everything you've learned, seeing researched about careers, career fulfillment, if you had to boil it all down into one piece of advice, what would it be? Oh, such a good question.
I'm laughing because in my head, the answer was don't even try to boil it all down. And what I mean by that is, I think sometimes we feel pressure. I certainly used to feel this, to have some overarching narrative for our career. And in pivot, I talk about project based purpose.
Going back to this, just take the one next step. I think my big takeaway is, and I've said this for years, but there is no great resume in the sky. Like, who are we all trying to impress? And things can change, you don't have to know your purpose.
I always tell people, you can borrow mine, just be helpful. And then I learned, oh, some people cringe at the word helping others because they say, well, I don't want to be helped. And so it's like, oh, now even that is controversial saying you want to help others. It just makes me laugh.
It's like, there's no there there. Everything is changing so much. None of us could have predicted a pandemic shaking everything up. So why the heck do we think we can predict anything else?
We can't. You can just do the best you can, and it's going to change and evolve. And like I said, the theme I'm really sitting with this year is how do I do less? And it's kind of cliche now to talk about Michelangelo and the Marvel statue.
But I actually just want to chip away. I want to drop layers. I want to drop effort. I want to chip away at anything obstructing whatever essence I have on the inside.
And I don't even know what it is. I don't know what to call it. Anybody listening would even know better than me, because you can't read the label from inside the jar. So that's it.
I think you just strip away. Don't worry about naming it and keep going. And each next step toward expressing each of our unique essence, that's all we can do in the moment. And then the new things are revealed.
So I guess it is that dance between shipping things away and then taking the one next step that's ideally even more aligned than the one before it without knowing or having any guarantees about how it's going to turn out. Mm, profound sounds so you. I don't know, it just sounds like a big rambling mess. Not at all.
Not at all. No, I will take that advice to heart. Very much to heart. Thank you, Adrienne.
Thank you so much for turning the tables today. Yeah, it was so fun. Thank you for the opportunity. And I have an appreciation for the challenge of doing this side.
You were just talking about the challenge awkwardness of responding to questions. And yeah, this is a lot to be totally connected to you and following the organic unfolding of what you're saying and also thinking about where to guide and lead the conversation and what I had planned and the dance between those two things. And you make it look so easy. And there's definitely, from my side here, work happening in these interviews.
Yeah, well, thank you. And it has a lot in common with coaching. For sure, with everything you described. Well, listeners, thanks for being along with us for this experimental podcast ride.
If you have questions or if you want us to do another one, let me know. You can always email hello at pivot method.com. And if you want to check out Adrienne's work and even get a special discount for his career pathfinder program, you can go to a path that fits.com slash pivot and use the promo code pivot when you enroll. Adrienne, anything else you'd like to add or where you want to send people?
Thank you. I really had a lot of fun doing this. Thanks for your vulnerability. And yeah, you can find me at a path that fits.com.
Awesome. Thank you, Adrienne. Thanks for these great questions. Thank you so much, everybody, for listening.
Thanks so much for listening to this episode of the Pivot Podcast. Make sure you don't miss an episode or my insider tips and templates by signing up for Pivot List, a curated twice monthly newsletter where I share the inside scoop on what I'm reading, watching, listening to, and the latest tools I'm geeking out on. Sign up at pivot method.com slash pivot list. Get show notes from this episode at pivot method.com slash podcast and connect with me on Twitter at Jenny underscore play.
Remember, build first, then your courage will follow. Haven't it, Ollie?