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Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnb.ca. Hey everyone, it's Guy here. So this week on the How I Built This Advice Line, we're bringing you an episode from the Archives, and in this episode, I take calls with Jane Werwin.
She's the co-founder of the Global Skincare Brand Dermalogica, and Jane gives amazing advice to three early-stage entrepreneurs and talks about the importance of customer education for building a trusted brand. This episode first aired in December of 2024. It's a great one, I hope you enjoy it. Hello, and welcome to the Advice Line on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz. This is the place where we help try to solve your business challenges. Each week, I'm joined by a legendary founder, a former guest on the show, who will help me try to help you. And if you're building something and you need advice, give us a call, and you just might be the next guest on the show.
Our number is 1-800-433-1298. Send us a one-minute message that tells us about your business and the issues or questions that you'd like help with. You can also send us a voice memo at hibt.id.wondry.com, and make sure to tell us how to reach you. And also, don't forget to sign up for my newsletter.
It's full of insights and ideas from the world's greatest entrepreneurs. You can sign up for free at GuyRas.com. And we'll put all this info in the podcast description. Alright, let's get to it.
Joining me this week is Jane Werwin. She's the co-founder of the pioneering skincare brand Dermalogica. Jane, welcome back to How I Built This. Thank you so much Guy.
It's such a pleasure to be back here. I was one of your first and I'm thrilled to be on this. Way back in 2016. And for those of you who haven't heard that story, we will include a link in the episode description.
It's an amazing story. And essentially Jane grew up in Scotland, tragically lost your father at a very young age. And after that happened, I think about this all the time, Jane. And then Jean-Germain told you, I give this advice to people.
She said, to all of her daughters, I want you to develop a skill so you never have to depend on a man. You can always be independent of it. Basically, it's what you said. And for you, you became a beautician, which eventually brought you California in the early 80s.
I love that you say beautician. That's such an old word. I'm a skin therapist. But I get it.
I get it. I think that's what you trained as, right? Yes. My original diploma.
You've got a great memory guy. You've probably been sorting up. And I'm still working. I'm just, you know, as I get older, it's good.
So you eventually get come to California. This is the early 80s. And you opened you and your husband Raymond. You leased a space, small space, opened a skincare, a place to teach skincare classes and to do skincare.
And at the time, if I remember, like people, skincare regiments were basically soap and water. Like people didn't really know how to do that. Yeah, 80s. It was big hair, big make up, no skincare.
And your business was an education business. It wasn't even a skincare brand business. But of course, over time, you start to, you know, people start to ask you what kind of products they should use. And you realize that really there wasn't anything available.
So you started to make them. You convinced a manufacturer to help you produce your products at scale. You called it Dermalogica. And the rest is history.
I mean, fast forward 2015, you and Raymond sold a majority stake of the business Unilever and Dermalogica was a massive skincare brand. Everybody listening knows Dermalogica. It's an incredible story. Thank you.
Jamie, before we bring on our college, I want to ask you a couple questions. And the first one was about the approach you took, right? Because you and Raymond were, you don't really scrap. You had to be, right?
When you were getting your first product to market, you didn't have any money. You convinced a manufacturer to give you a chance with almost no money up front. And then you launched with like 27 products all at once, right? I know.
If someone else knew they could do that, I would say no. Yes, 27. And that's my question. Would you take that same approach today?
What are your thoughts about focusing on like one product, doing that, crushing that really well for a while versus just going all out with like 20 products from Yeko? Well, we really felt strongly we had to introduce that many products because skincare as we saw it was a regimen. And so we had to have more than one or two products. So that was deliberate.
And it also set us apart because you couldn't just grab one product and it would do everything. There was no miracle product. We were basing on education. We had $14,000 of self-funding.
And we never took outside funding all the way through to the acquisition. We never had no debt. It's amazing. Yeah.
And so to do that, we needed a selection of product. But focus is the number one word I would use. Focus, focus, focus. We didn't introduce makeup.
We didn't introduce hair products. We didn't introduce nail products. Everyone told us diversify, spread your look. No, no, no.
Skincare skincare skincare. And I think niching is really important when you're a startup, directing your energy and time and attention at one target market. You can expand once you secure that. But start off in something that you feel strongly.
You've got a unique position in. I mean, when you started Dermalagica, totally different landscape. Now, you know, there are giant stores that are dedicated to, obviously, beauty. And there were some, but not quite like today.
The Sephora's and the, you know, companies like that. I mean, on the one hand, it's a lot easier. The barrier to entry is lower. There are lots of co-manufactures.
You don't need as much money to start. But on the other hand, it is just a massive market. To break into it is so challenging. If you were to start Dermalagica today, right, what do you think you would have to do differently to gain traction?
You know, it's really interesting. I would do exactly the same as we did when we started. I would niche it with education. It's a different environment, but people still want to hear expert advice.
And, you know, even the most entertaining 10-year-old on TikTok talking about aging skincare is not entertainment. It's not that they might have some good points. But the different thing is about the, it is very different because the barrier to entry is easier. Now, you can set up your own channel in your kitchen if you wanted to.
And plenty of people do. However, that is not as solid a relationship as we had to build, which was literally word of mouth. You had to meet that person. You had to touch that person.
You had to introduce your product to them. There was no internet. There was no cell phone. A better, simpler time, Jane.
Yes, simpler time. And when you built it, that relationship was real. That comes first before the sale. I would say, tell, don't sell.
You're not ready to sell until I am ready to buy. And the way I would be ready to buy as a consumer is I want to want your product. I want to understand what it does. And then you've got to be able to build an emotion in me that says, oh my gosh, I'm going to buy that.
Especially if you were in the prestige market because it's not going to be an inexpensive purchase. And it has to deliver on what you just promised. And we did that through education. Essentially what you're saying, which is something I say often, so people hearing this will be tired of it, is the fundamentals remain the same.
Yeah, the plumbing is different, but it's exactly the same stuff coming through it. Yeah. Yeah. All right.
We're going to have lots to talk about. Of course, Jane. Let's bring on our first caller and find out what is going on. Hello, caller.
Welcome to the advice line here on how I built this year on with me and Jane. We're going to please introduce yourself, tell us your name, what you're calling from. And just a tiny bit about your business. Hi, I'm Guy and Jane.
I'm Camille Hardy, originally from Pasadena, California. I'm now based in Leesburg, Virginia, where I founded Chunky Vegan. And at Chunky Vegan, we're on a mission to redefine baby food with farm to table nutrient rich meals crafted for early stage eaters. Awesome.
Camille, thank you for calling in. I'm excited to talk to you. So tell me a little bit more about Chunky Vegan. It's baby food that you sell, how, and where?
Currently we're selling at farmers markets, pop up shops, daycares and places like that. And it's direct to consumer currently. And it's in a glass jar? Yes.
And it's refrigerated? Yes. All of our food is farm fresh. So it's all plant-based.
We don't have any preservatives. So it should be refrigerated and eaten within four days. And if not, you can freeze it for up to six months. Okay, Camille, I'm assuming, and maybe I'm wrong, but I'm going to assume that this business started because you became a parent.
It absolutely did start because I became a parent. And it also started because I moved from Pasadena to Virginia, the options in terms of healthy or clean eating weren't as available as they were. In California, yeah. And so I had to be really creative and very selective.
And I just really wasn't satisfied with what was available to feed my son. So I started to make the food for him myself, initially sourcing it from the grocery stores. But then as I kind of learned like, where are they sourcing this from? And how's the food being treated?
I kind of went down a little bit of a rabbit hole and I gradually kind of refined how I was sourcing certain foods for my son. And that's how that's how it initially started. Awesome. And what's your question for us today?
So the business has been established business last year, actually, July of 2023, but we launched last month. And what I'm finding, just in a bit of a kind of a weird space, a lot of the other baby food brands, they say they're organic and, you know, they're clean packing. They're clean packaged, but then they throw it in a pouch or plastic. So from end to end, what we offer, we're just very intentional about the whole process of how we deliver our product from the packaging, the glass to the ingredients we source to the way that we combine those ingredients to make the nutrient density.
And so how can we, Chunky Vegan, effectively scale up while maintaining the quality and the sustainability standards that set us apart? Because a lot of advice we have been giving us to cut back on our packaging or scale back on these ingredients, but that the greats, the quality of our product. All right, lots to answer and lots to talk about. Jane, I want to bring you in.
First of all, do any questions for Kimmy, I'll be forward to her question. I just pulled up your website. First of all, I have to just tell you, where were you when I had a baby 30 years ago? I love everything about this.
I think you're in exactly the sweet spot. I also have to tell you your website looks great. Really good. I like the brand identity.
But you've got low numbers on Instagram. I see 267 on your Instagram. Now you've just started, so I understand that. Do you feel comfortable on the social platforms and if you do which ones are you on right now?
I mean, I feel comfortable. I'm on Instagram, Facebook, Pinterest and LinkedIn. Okay. But the traction is it's not really picking up the way that I thought that it would.
I would put a pin in that because it should work for you and it may have to just be very targeted with your message. It's got to be tight and targeted. That's another conversation. But don't lighten up on that.
Go heavy on that. You've got a great message. I love your brand identity. I don't know if you're familiar with the company, Farmers Dog.
Yes. Okay. So I know it's for babies, but this just reminded me of the branding for Farmers Dog. Anyone who's listening doesn't know Farmers Dog.
It's like a gourmet dog food customized for your dog. I have a rescue Chewah Wabteria mix who honestly would eat anything. He'd chew a chair if that was all that was on the con for him, but he gets Farmers Dog. And the reason we did it was it's so much better.
He is so much happier. He's like a young puppy and he's 13 years old. Okay. So I really look at that website because there's a brand identity there that comes through and people like me respond to it.
And that's what you need for your consumer. You're charging 12 on the website. It says $12 for six ounces of baby food. Yes.
Okay. So you're a high-end product. And you should be. Yeah.
And you're a premium brand. You should be. So you've got a niche it that way. A couple of things.
Education, education, education. Make sure there's plenty of it on your site and in your materials. Why are in season veggies important? What do people say about can babies be vegan?
You know, I mean, people will say, can I don't know, can my baby be a yes? One thing I would say, I love what you said earlier, you've nitched your initial distribution to farmers markets, pre-schools, perhaps you said. I would look at your niche local grocery stores, especially health food stores, anything which has small, the small high-end. You're familiar from California with Erowan.
Yes, I am. I love that story. I love that story too. Erowan for anyone who seems to know it's a California-based grocery market, but it's very high-end.
But they talk about ethically sourced foods. This is about your body and the planet. And they have a slogan as you walk in the store and it says, if we sell it, it's good for you. I feel like that is an outlet that you could target.
Maybe not yet, but that should be in your sights. I would not go to a big supermarket. Don't go anywhere near a Kroger or even a Whole Foods yet, not yet, not now. Because they could eat you alive.
The terms they would want, the amount of product you'd have to supply, and you would be carrying the cost of that until they paid, and those payments could be four months later. These are fantastic food retailers, but it's not where you need to be right now. So niche is small, niche tight, and make sure that junkie vegan is found where you can target high-end customers. Because your average buyer is not going to be the person that wants the necessarily just the quick-easy fix.
They could have found that already on the shelves. First of all, I think, Jane, your advice about focusing locally is critical right now. You've just launched, and so you are in the test and learn phase. And this is a hard phase because you're not going to see velocity and traction as quickly as you like.
It's very rare for a new business to do that, especially in your category, because maybe food is challenging. They've got to trust that your food is safe and healthy for their child. What I think you should consider is thinking of this time as the test and learn time, which is to keep a diary, write everything down, review, and measure. Because over time, you're going to start to see what works and what doesn't work.
The challenge that you face is you have a premium product. It is not shelf-stable. You've got to refrigerate it, and it's shelf life is limited. So it's got to be sold really quickly.
So over time, could you serve it in the frozen section? Could it be? I think you could preserve most of the nutrients if you freeze it. I like that better.
It looks better. I think that's a great advantage, actually. Is there a world where you would consider maybe high-pressure processing to preserve the nutrients and putting it also in the refrigerated section, but maybe it would extend the shelf life longer. Maybe you use other packaging that's not so heavy.
I love glass. I'm a big fan of glass, and I think glass is heavy, so grocers don't always like it, but nobody recycles plastic. Those pouches are challenging. But I think that you're going to learn over time what works.
Now is the time to really lean into the newspaper in Leesburg, the alternative weekly, the farmers markets, parent groups, and start to develop a following there, because you're just outside of one of the most important media and cultural centers in the United States, the Washington, D.C. metropolitan area. There's an opportunity to get a foothold in that market, but I think that right now, as you're starting, you really want to just measure what people say. You want to write things down.
You want to ask people for their feedback, and you want to start to see how you might make it even more accessible to people over time. Yeah. Build your community. We've done that.
We literally started doing conducting surveys in case studies last April. That's been ongoing. We've been getting a lot of feedback. That's what allowed us to refine the meal offerings to these six-day bowl things that we launched with.
Now that we've launched and we're opening up to a wider audience, we're still getting more feedback, more input so that we can further refine and to see how we can go from there. What I like about what you're doing is that you're focusing on nutrient density, something that people are really interested in. Jane, I think this goes to right back to what we talked about earlier, which is the fundamentals. In this case, a lot of your energy has to be aimed towards really doubling down on educating parents.
Are they going to get everything they want from the big brands that are available on the shelves? It might be fine enough for them, but what you're saying is, look, this is different. It's critical because you don't want to be confused with another baby food. This is not actually a baby food.
This is a healthy start to your child's life. So be prepared that not everyone is going to want to go with you. That's fine. You don't need them.
You need a very small percentage to go with you. So target them hard, speak to their mind, to their heart, and they'll be there because this is the right thing. It is the right thing to be available. I feel like you have a great opportunity, but you're in the first sample sample sample sample sample sample sample sample.
That's been the closer. That's been what gets people in and they buy is offering the tasting. So everywhere we go, we have samples. But we're trying to create, it's not just a baby food brand.
We want a community. We want awareness. We want education. So we want to teach parents the repercussions of the convenience of grabbing that pouch and having something that they can send the bag for hours unrefrigerated and what that costs to your child.
We want to teach the real meaning of how true food should be treated. True food is not shelf-stable. We don't use typical ingredients. We don't use oatmeal or any rice based anything in our foods.
And that's all very important and people don't know those things. So package everything you said into a little program, little workshop, and pitch it to pediatricians in your area, pitch it to mommy and baby groups, pitch it to neonatal classes, all of those kind of things that we all did. Because it's important that you're not in there to tell your brand, you're in there to tell about the education behind your brand. And then they won't have to be sold your brand.
They'll want to buy it because they'll understand why it's so important. Absolutely. Camille Hardy, the brand is called Chunky Vegan in Leesburg, Virginia. Thank you so much.
Good luck. Good luck, Jane. Thank you so much. It's been an absolute pleasure to have this opportunity to speak with both of you.
Thank you. Thank you. What you could do is you could have a bar instead of tequila shots for babies, you could bring them up to the bar and give them shots of Chunky Vegan. I love it.
A little pop up in one of the stores with the farmer's market and bring your baby over and feed them. And then you could have tequila shots for the parents. Absolutely. Because that's what you need.
And then the babies eating the Chunky Vegan. The moms got to leave the little tequila into soda water. Yeah. It's working for me.
We're going to take a quick break, but when we come back, another question, another round of advice. I'm Guy Ross. Stick around. You're listening to the advice line on how I built this lab.
Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Ross. And my guest today is Dermalogica founder Jane Warland. And Jane, what do you say?
Let's take another call. Yeah, let's take care. Hello. Welcome to the advice line.
You were on with Jane Warland. Please tell us your name where you're calling from and a little bit about your business. Hey, Jane. Hey, my name is Molly Brubaker.
I'm the founder of Baby Booty. And we are based in Portland, Maine. Baby Booty is boutique fitness for parents where you bring your baby or toddler along, but the focus is on you. So we offer energetic fitness classes based on the everyday movements of new parenthood.
So you can focus on getting stronger physically, emotionally and mentally. Our studios are located in Portland, Maine and Boston, Massachusetts with a hope to franchise at some point. Awesome. Well, thank you for calling in Molly.
So Baby Booty is like boot camp kind of thing. Yeah, like a worky booty. I got you. Yeah, I get stronger.
Yeah. And you can, in the classes, like what you bring your baby to the class and the baby's just kind of like wander around and do their thing. Or are they like deposited in another room where they're cared for? Okay.
So we kind of seek to eliminate the need for childcare. So your baby's there. We have baby-proofed studios. The babies are socializing.
They're playing. They're eating snacks. They're playing with the toys or their straps of your body. You've got like goldfish crumbs on the ground and apple juice spilled and you've got like your other workout class going on all around it.
You know it's a big chaotic, but it really works. It's amazing actually to see the chaos, but the focus is there for the parents. So we welcome baby wearing. So if you have an infant, you can strap them on.
So you don't have to think about them. We have parents with toddlers, foreign under, who are cruising around on bikes, weaving in and out of our feet. But really it's a win-win because you don't need childcare. You can focus on yourself for that hour and then your baby also gets to socialize.
Yeah. I'm on your website now and I see you literally like half of these moms have their baby beorns on. And the baby like from the hangover and you got them exercising with the baby in the baby beorn. Is each of them with their own baby or can you kind of swap your babies?
I mean, our instructors are known to carry other people's babies around if they need help. But literally, I look around at my classes and I'm like, why are more people not seeing how badass all these parents are? They're here, they're getting physically stronger after having a baby or becoming a new parent. And one thing that's really special about baby booty is that every single class is half workout, half social circle.
So I'm trying to find that sweet spot between you can socialize, you can connect with other parents and your babies are there, but they're not the focus. I think there's in our culture, there's really kind of a lack of support for new parents, right? And that's symbolic in that. I've been, yes, especially moms.
I'm a dad and I can say that. I've been there 15 years ago. What's your question that you brought for us today? Yeah.
So how can I shift the mindset and behavior of my current and potential customers to also prioritize self care by coming to baby booty and not feel guilt in a culture where we feel like our kids always come first? Got it. Okay. We'll get to that question.
So, Jane, let's bring you in questions, questions, questions from Ollie. I love what you're doing. I, let me backtrack to the quiet side about this. When we started Dermalogica, we quickly realized, we started with education in classes.
And what we quickly realized was students who were already qualified working in salons were coming back to the same class more than once, which seemed odd because they'd already learned, you know, about acne or whatever it was. What we realized was they weren't just coming for the education, they were coming for the community. And I think that's exactly what you've got. I think you've got a workout studio, but what is, I'm willing to bet, one of the strongest pulls for people to come there is because yes, they can bring their baby.
So that solves the childcare issue. Secondly, they're with a like-minded group. It's connection. It's community.
It's sister heard. It is knowing that you're not on your own. Knowing that you're not the only one that doesn't get it right first time, that is critically important because what everyone is craving right now is community and connection. So I would just really emphasize to you, don't underestimate this community aspect.
Make every excuse you can to have them come in to the studio, whether it's a workshop, whether it's a baby class, whether it's somebody giving a presentation on something. Get it on social media. I looked at your Instagram just quickly and you've only got a little over 3,000 people. You can get more than that.
It's pretty good actually. It's not bad, but your mom's can keep, your mom's can kind of flesh that out themselves, you know, have them posts, do competitions when they post. Anything you can think about, any idea that builds community, build it in your business. Yeah, for sure.
So you have a membership? There's a membership aspect to this? And what does that look like? Yeah, so you can join as an unlimited member.
You get access to on-demand classes, live stream classes, unlimited classes in the studio. And so what's spool part pricing on your membership? It's roughly like $89 a month. It's very affordable.
Okay, great. And I can take out a month, a month or can I take out six months or a year? How does it work? Yeah, you can do months and months or if you do six months upfront, you get a little bit of a discount.
Yeah, Molly, a couple questions for you. First of all, you mentioned that you like to be, you know, one day, you got two locations and I like to franchise this. How is, give me a sense of how the business is doing now? Are you guys profitable yet?
I mean, it's tough. It's a new business, but just are you, where are you right now with the business? Yeah, no, we're not profitable. I have no outside funding, so I've bootstrapped this entirely.
I've taken some really big risks, some scary risks in terms of opening my second studio in Boston. Obviously, it's a lot more expensive than Maine. And I've had to make some really tough decisions. I haven't paid myself ever.
I had to just let go of a manager who, beloved manager, just because I couldn't pay her. So I have a big vision and I'm not going to give up, but yeah, it's definitely hard. And just scraping by each month, you know, I'm just like treading water, like keeping my head up, keeping a positive attitude. Yeah, I love that.
And thank you for saying that. First of all, here's the thing. I mean, Jane tapped into social media. We tend to overemphasize the importance of it.
And I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I do recognize that there are big parts of it that are critical. And in this case, what you're trying to do is to remind new parents. And I think probably most of your clients are women, but I do see some men in the classes as well. So new parents that they kind of give themselves, like they have to take care of themselves too, because it's part of being a good parent and taking care of your child, especially when they're little, take care of yourself.
And what your value proposition here is we're going to make it easy for you. Just come. Just show up. And I think that if there's a way to kind of send that message through videos, I mean, you probably are already doing some of that, but I would really lean into that idea of like bring you and your baby and just come and we will take care of everything else.
Yeah, we're here. Your community is here and we're waiting for you. I have a quick question. Why did you open the second?
What prompted you to open the second location in Boston when you hadn't used it? You've never drawn a salary. I totally understand all of that. That's very cool.
But why did you then expand to a second location? So when I started the business in 2021 here in Portland, Maine, I also started doing pop-up classes in Boston in that area because that's actually where I'm from. And I was just so excited. I just felt there was a need as I was a brand new mom myself.
And I just thought there's so many parents who could who could utilize this. And it was successful in the pop-ups that I then said, well, we should just have our own studio space because the idea is to really have that home base for new parents to have a place to go and a sense of purpose. So for all the right reasons, but did you sign a lease on the premises? I did.
Yeah. How long is your lease? It's five years. Okay.
So that's a stretch because you were at that time when you opened in Boston. How many? And does it just you teaching or did you have other people teaching with you? So in total, my total team between the two studios, I have 17 instructors.
And when I opened, I had a team, I think of six and a manager. So I do go down. I do go down there as often as I can. And I've learned actually I have to run that studio a little bit differently than I do in Maine just because the client is a little bit more.
And I do in Maine just because the client's hell is different. And it's so nuanced because a market like Boston is a big city. We have a lot of more working moms, career moms. They're going back to work.
So I'm trying to navigate all of those nuances within that demographic and figure out the right messaging. And do you have a manager in Boston? I do. Yep.
You do. Okay. So they have to be your proxy. You've signed a five-year lease.
So you're in. However, I would say that that's a big chunk to bite off and try and carry the cost of that, the overhead of that and just the attention and energy of having to do that. Portland is a great location. Boston is a great location.
I think one would be enough to manage until you feel really strongly. You've got it worked out and then expand to the second. But that's, you know, that's looking in the review mirror because you're already in there. But that's the balancing act.
And you're picking up a lot of overhead there. I would imagine. I'm just laughing because a lot of people told me I was crazy. I opened the second location when I had a six-month-old baby and a toddler.
Yeah. And crazy. Crazy. Much crazier examples stories on the show.
I think one of the, look, I think you have an opportunity here and clearly you're aware of it. I mean, you've got an opportunity here to really build a new career. And I think one of the, in addition to this idea of making it easy, one of the things I think you can do, it's hard. And you can hear a Muhammad, you can hear a parent, you've got to raise kids too.
But if baby booty, at least in the Boston location, can be even more of a 360 location, you know, could you, could you have a cooler that sells premium baby food? Could you have maybe a parallel, maybe you are selling a parallel already? Are you selling baby products? Are you inviting pediatricians?
I mean, there's tons of, I mean, you're in Boston is one of the medical centers of the United States. And so I would imagine there are tons and tons of neonatal specialists and maternity care specialists who would be delighted to come and talk, do a talk for free. Obviously moms are busy. They don't have tons and tons of time.
But all of those things generate buzz and interest. And so to me, you know, it's hard. It's not going to be easy, Molly. You've heard the show.
You know how much of a sacrifice it is. But given that you've got the space and you've got the, you know, you've got the critical mass there, I think you can really think of it more as much more than than only a fitness space. Yeah. Awesome.
Yeah. I love that. As your community clubhouse. Yeah.
That's cute. Yeah. I love, I love all that. I love when you said have it be more of a 360.
And, you know, we're definitely trying. We brought in CPR workshops and kind of you name it different moms night out and things like that. And in Boston, I am facing, you know, the clientele just feeling like that competition of they have so many other choices of things to do with their kids are so busy. They're working like kids in daycare.
They're going to swim class in gymnastics. And so, you know, how do I shift them to get into my, you know, my pump station, my mom's club, you know, it's that mentality that has been really challenging. And that may teach you something also interesting. You may find that your, your business model works better in a smaller community and not a city.
And there's plenty of businesses that know, you know, they know that target and that's what they focus on. And conversely, if you feel like you can compete against the noise of the city and all the other options that they want to go for it. And partnerships, partnerships, partnerships, right? I know I might say three times.
I don't know. People just say things three times a row. But if you can, if you can start to even reach out on all LinkedIn emails, reach out to baby, baby brands, you know, stroller companies, other brands that may want to come in the way that they want to compete with. And so, I think people are surprised at how often they'll receive a response when you just reach out.
100%. Yeah, for sure. All right. The company's called Baby Booty.
Molly Brubaker, congrats. Thanks so much for calling in. Good luck. We'll be keeping tabs on you.
Hey, thank you, Jane. Thank you, guys. I want an honor to talk to you. I love it.
Thank you guys so much. And it's not just for mom. So, you know, Jane guy, if you guys want to go in and work out with us and dance, we love that. I'll put my 15 year old in the end.
I'm going to talk to you about the next two years. I'm going to talk to you about the next two years. All right. I'll put my 15 year old in the baby.
Oh, I love you. Just strap him on your back. My 25 year old can carry me in. All right.
We're going to take another quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller. Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz, and you're listening to the Vice Line right here on How I Built This Lab. Welcome back to the Vice Line on How I Built This Lab.
I'm Guy Raz. And today I'm taking your calls with Jane Werwin. Let's bring in our next and final caller. Welcome to the Vice Line.
You're on with Jane Werwin. Please tell us your name, where you're calling from, and just a little bit about your business. Hi Jane. Hi Guy.
I'm Sarah Wyman, and I'm calling in from Lakeville, Connecticut. I'm the founder of Paradis Sport. It's like spelled like paradise with no E at the end. We make performance underwear for athletes designed by women, for women, with our guaranteed stay-in-place promise.
All of our products are certified BPA and PFAS-free, made as sustainably as possible, and built to last. Awesome. Well, thank you for calling in Paradis Sport. I love it.
And so, underwear, how did you start this brand? Tell me about it. This is really something that I found I needed. I had worn the same brand of active underwear for about ten years.
I played sports in college. I played Division I sports, and I'm now still a very active person. Wow, what'd you play, by the way? I played field hockey.
I was talking lacrosse. Wow. So you're no joke. Division I athlete.
Well, I'm now in my late 40s. I am still active at skiing and running and hiking with my family. And the brand of active underwear had worn for years changed their cut and fabric, and didn't work for me anymore. I ordered all these other brands.
None of them were really pretty bad. I'm trained as an architect and landscape architect, and I've been running my own design business for 18 years now. And I sort of have that design mentality. And I thought, this is crazy that there aren't better options for active women.
I just want to something that I can go on a hike in and not have to worry about adjusting my underwear the whole time. And then I started talking to friends, and I started realizing that there are a lot of other women out there who are looking for better products in this category. Having that design mentality, I started calling around to factories and ended up finding a lot of calling in factories in Asia and in the US, found an awesome designer in Vermont who had experience designing for other underwear brands and for NASA and for, wow, the US military, actually. And she came up with our first prototype, which we then tested with Division I athletes.
And we prototyped for a good year and a half. We had eight rounds of prototypes, so we've been very laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well. So you started this because you wanted to solve a problem that you had. You found a designer, and now you've got, from what I gather, two different designs, right?
Well, so we have two different lines for which we have a bikini and a thong. One is seamless. They're knit on circular machines. And they don't have any side seams.
We have a natural fiber line that's made with fabric that comes from sustainably harvested beach tree pulp. And we're adding a couple of new styles. We're right now in development with a boy short and a hipster. And Sarah, tell me a little bit about your entirely self-funded, the spooch replicate and mostly direct to consumers.
So what are you guys roughly doing in sales right now? Have you cracked like $50, $100,000 a year? We're close. We're really close.
Nice. Nice. That's great. All right.
How can we help you today? So the question that I had is that we've been laser focused on just underwear and doing it really well and trying to own that space. We do have customers asking us to work on a sports bra or sports shorts. What do you think about adding one or two other verticals, like sports bras or sports shorts at this point in our process?
Or should we just own underwear? Jane, who launched with a 20 plus different excuse? Jane, what do you think? First of all, I love this.
I think it's great. I think you have a real shot of building a brand with this. I'm on your website. I love these three women running through the field with Buffalo bison in the background in their underwear.
It's fantastic. It's very high quality. We need underwear that works like this. And I think I would not expand.
You've got to own this underwinage. You've got to be. Underwear, I've got to think parody. I think that there's all kinds of opportunities to expand within the underwear.
I do pull out. I love pilates. Pilates underwear. We need something when we're doing standing legs.
So you've got a pregnant woman in one of your shots, but pregnancy underwear, there's specific sports. I imagine like, I don't know, hurdles, pickleball, which is huge. Men's, I think, could be the next big step. I wouldn't charge into swimwear and shorts and all the rest of it until you've got a great product going here and you've got great attention for press.
I wouldn't spread yourself too thin. I'm going to jump in and make a counter argument to you, Jane. Are you a go guy? I actually think, first of all, I think that being a women's brand is a way to go.
At least for now, the thing about sports bras, to me, I would say you should go for it because you've already solved the underwear problem. And I would imagine, and again, I'm a guy here. So I don't know. This is intimately as a two of you.
But I would imagine that that's the other problem that a lot of women athletes have, right? Which is dealing with a bra or a top that isn't holding things together. And if you know that you've solved the problem with underwear, I'm pretty sure you will not solve the problem with tops and sports bras as well. And I would think those two together would be a really powerful...
Sorry, go ahead. It's two totally different parts of your body. I mean, a bra is very specific. I mean, whether it's your size, it's your cup size, it's your most people who haven't got a clue what size bra they should be wearing.
And I love that whole idea. But I think it's too soon. You're going to distract yourself with the underwire versus the front-bouncing folding bras. The expandable straps, the cross-strap.
The sports bras don't have wire in there at all, do they? Well, that's probably one of the reasons why people, if you're larger breasted, you don't know if you find one that really works for you. If you put one without an underwire, it is more comfortable, but then you look and see if you've got a dash and strap around your chest. Everything sort of folds into the middle.
So I think it's not that I don't think you should ever do underwear like bras and slips and pedicotes and weatherheads going on at that time. But I think there's such a market in lower half underwear before you concentrate on top half. I mean, she does have an opening here, Jane, because it's called ParaDisport, not ParaD Underwear. So there's a bigger vision here, Sarah, right?
Okay. All right. Maybe. But I do think that bras open up.
They require so many sizes. And with minimum orders, her size, that's a huge hesitancy that I have there. But I also love the idea of doing one thing really well. But if you want to scale something, right, you've got a lot going for it.
You've got a great logo, you've got a good name. Underwear by women, four women, you've got underwear for women athletes. I mean, you can't go. I wonder whether you can build a whole business and scale a whole business on just one thing, right?
And just underwear, especially as the other big 800 pound gorillas in the space, the aloes and the blue lemons and others. They can start to make underwear. I don't think they do. So I wonder whether there is an argument to be made that despite the complexity, it is worth the risk.
I think there are companies that are known for their underwear, they're lingerie, you know, and they may do panties and bras. But in any event, I love the idea of going narrow and deep. I think there's enough crazy people like me that really think about underwear in a different way that would be your customers. We might be divided into a guy.
I say go narrow and deep. Or divided. But I love that. And by the way, this is the longest conversation I've had about women's underwear.
By the way, what is the name? Para D. Where does that come from? So it's paying homage to Marie Para D, who is the first woman to climb Mont Blanc in the hot palace to peak in the Alps.
Okay, you just had me at Marie. What? It's an amazing story too. She went up in 1808 with a party of men.
And she was wearing a wool skirt and leather shoes, leather town shoes, and she persisted. Oh, you've got it on your website. Wait, I just found her. And imagine how much more comfortable that that client would have been with your underwear.
That's what we were thinking. We hoped she would support our efforts to outfit women's for comfort and performance. This is a great piece on the website. This is Marie Story Plus.
I think that who are the Marie's of today? I have a niece who's an ultra athlete in the UK. She's a GB athlete. And she competes in Ironman and she just rode across the Atlantic literally with two other women.