Advice Line with Tim Ferriss

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And we'll put all of this info in the podcast description. Alright, let's get to it. Joining me this week is Tim Ferriss. He's an entrepreneur, investor, host of Tim Ferriss Show and author of many books, including the 4-Hour Work Week.

Tim, it's great to have you back on the show. Thanks for having me, Max. It's nice to see you. You too, Tim.

You were first on How I Go to spec in 2020. And as always, if anyone listening, if you haven't heard that episode, it's so good. We'll put a link to it in the episode description. So check it out.

In that episode, Tim, we talked about your time as a student and learning Japanese and how you got a sales job at college and you start your own business, a supplement company. And then, of course, you published your first book, which many people know you for the 4-Hour Work Week. Initially, you couldn't even find a publisher and a story of how you managed to use your blog to get it out there. And sold millions of copies, became a massive bestseller.

And of course, since then, you've written several other books, you've launched a massively successful podcast, which hit a billion downloads last year. Congratulations. Thank you. Give us a little bit of an update about what's been going on in your life since we last spoke.

Well, there are a number of simultaneously running chapters. So, supporting a lot of early stage science. And then, I would say every 3-4 years, I want to try something completely off menu professionally to see what I can learn, the angel investing after the success of the first book, the podcast after the third book, et cetera. And now, I've spent two years working on a card game.

This is a tabletop analog game that is called Coyote, that is now launching everywhere. I think part of your story for people who haven't heard it is that you kind of follow your passions and your interests in ways that have led you to do not just interesting things, but things that have been lucrative, that have worked out. Like your podcast was just kind of a, started out as just a fun little project, which turned into a real business. Now, you're doing a card game, which is totally out of left field.

Tell me about how you, what inspired this idea. So, I tend to explore these off menu, out of left field things for skill development, learning and new relationships. Right? So, the podcast, I launched it as a lark, but I basically wanted to ask myself, how could this win even if it fails?

And I did the same thing with angel investing, I was treated it as paying for a business degree. So, in this particular case, I'm looking at it the same way, and it came about because I have seen in my audience as sorely needed, as an antidote to digital malaise and loneliness, which is in person social time with something that is a light lift. So, how could I design a game that takes about two minutes to learn time as a play that can help people offset their screen time and all of the things that come with excessive screen time, with family, with friends, that hopefully makes you a little bit smarter. Right?

So, I wonder whether some of that came out of your own experience. Like, did you find yourself, maybe at certain points in the last decade, just being, you know, a slave to screens, to your phone, to whatever was in front of you? Oh, for sure. This is basically creating what I want more of in my own life, certainly.

For the last, I'd say two, maybe three years, I've had no social media apps on my phone because if you think you're going to use discipline to beat teams of computational neuroscientists and statisticians and computer scientists who have billions of dollars at stake in ensuring that they can overcome any type of resistance you have to using their program or platform compulsively, you're just bringing a butter knife to a gunfight. And I think it's uncontroversial when you look at scientific literature, these technologies, like their R costs. So, my thought is, just offset it. Try to offset it a little bit.

And I think that in-person still counts. We are not evolved for two-dimensional screens at 18 inches, 10 hours a day. Not what we're evolved to handle at all. But I really think that there is a quality of life value to in-person.

And we see some counter-dailing trends, for instance, in New York City, these massive game nights in-person have become a big thing. Running clubs, people getting off of dating apps. I think that at the very least, you know, micro-dosing analog is a good idea. Yeah, I agree with you.

I mean, there's a crisis in attention. And this is relevant for entrepreneurs, right? Because I think many of the entrepreneurs I interview on the show also have multiple interests. I mean, their passion might be their business or the thing they started.

But I think that in many examples, the sort of the underlying foundation for their success has to do with being interested in lots of different things. And I wonder how you find those things. I would say that I just throw a lot against the wall. And part of the reason that I do many different things, by the way, some of them have been dead-ends and failures.

But if you look at, say, the angel investing is still going. You look at the podcast, it's still going. And these are things that provide energy and recharge the batteries. So the energy that you might get from playing a game, spending time with two particular friends, you can transfer that to everything else that you do.

And that's part of the reason why I think a lot of startup founders, in particular, could benefit from a little bit of identity diversification. If your entire identity and self-worth is wrapped up in your company, there are too many factors outside of your control that can give you a real curveball type of damage. And I just know dozens of founders where if they have a bad quarter or they have a bad year, they feel like a failure. And for that reason, having a few concurrent projects allows you to make progress in other areas to offset lack of progress in another.

And then you just say, OK, this is the one out of 20 that seems to get me super excited for some reason. Let me just follow that centrail and see where it goes. I love that. All right, Tim, let's go ahead and bring in our first caller.

Are you ready? All right. Hello. Welcome to the Vice Line.

You're on with Tim Ferriss. Tell us your name, where you're calling from, just one quick line of our business. Hi, Guy. Hi, Tim.

I'm Lauren Menard. I'm usually based in San Francisco, actually, but I'm in my hometown in Big Mptown, New York right now. I'm a CEO and founder of GOB, and we are on a mission to reinvent single-use personal care products that disappear after you use them as they should. All right.

So what's your product? Our first product is a single-use foam earplug made entirely out of my celium, which is for mushrooms. Yes. It's the root structure of a mushroom.

Amazing. Congratulations. Thanks for calling. So Lauren, the products that you have now, they're earplugs, like regular earplugs, except I guess, and I've always wondered this because I used your plugs a lot.

You throw them away and they're probably mainly plastic. Yours, what they biodegrade? Yeah. So normal foam earplugs, they're all made out of pure petroleum.

They're polyurethane or PVC, and they're really bad for you and the planet. Ours are bioengineered material foam that's actually bio-fabricated. It's grown into its form. Wow.

And how did nobody ever think of this before? You know, that's exactly why I started the company guy. When I had the idea, I was like, well, I hasn't done this yet. Yeah.

Tell me how you came up with, are you an engineer by background? Or tell me a little about what you were doing before? So I'm an industrial designer. I was running a design agency.

I thought that was going to be the rest of my life, working with large Fortune 500 companies, helping them bridge the gap between mass manufacturing and better materials. And you launched the business when? When did you launch GOB? Just the middle of March this year.

Wow. And tell me a little bit about how you're doing so far. I mean, you're selling mainly to who and what kind of attraction you're seeing. Yeah.

So we sell directly on our website currently and also in a number of music venues. And that's a bit about why I'm here and asking you a question. Go ahead a lot. What's your question?

So we're really lucky to be gaining mega attraction in the live event space with actually a national partnership with a massive company that owns many venues. And at the same time, we're growing a really strong direct to consumer customer base for sleep. So my question, I'd love both of your advice is around how to successfully scale to very different verticals simultaneously without losing focus. All right.

Awesome questions. I'm going to bring Tim Ferris and Tim questions maybe for Lauren or thoughts about her question. Lauren, if you had to focus on say the venues or the DTC. Oh, God.

Let's just say you had to make a decision. Which way would you go and why? Oh, that's really tough because on the sleep side of things, we're getting customer feedback. Like we're getting a lot of rave reviews.

I feel like we're really finding that need and we're meeting that need on the venue side of things. However, you know, we have access to guaranteed eyeballs, thousands, sometimes tens of thousands in a night. And basically, we're meeting people in these cultural emotional moments. And Tim, you were mentioning IRL experiences.

That's where people really connect with brands. So that's why I'm so torn. God, you mind if I rip for a second? Please.

Okay. I would actually be curious to know if you think it could make sense to build up your coffers and generate a nice, healthy, reliable stretch of income with the music venues. And that puts you in a position to experiment with different ways of acquiring customers on the DTC side. And then you can make an informed decision based on at least some math and history, which way you want to go.

Do you have any feelings on where you want to go with this company for yourself? Do you want to be some type of investor backed company or do you want to maintain control and remain private? Great question. So we are actually investor backed.

We raised a free seed last year of a million dollars and I'm currently raising our seed on a safe note. So we do have that outside investment, but basically because my dream and my vision of this company is to build it into a new category. And I intend to find these kind of forgotten about single use personal care products and adopt biomaterials that can meet the need. And because of the nature of biomaterials, there needs to be a little bit of R&D that requires some funding.

So basically that's why I've had to do that thus far, but I intend to build this into a very large company. I want to take on 3M. I'm an ambitious reason. I want to pass it over to guys.

No, no, no, it's great. Lauren, I'm curious with AEG, how does that relationship or how will it work? Will they sell the earplugs at their concerts? Yes, so we pay a marketing fee or sponsorship fee to be there for the full year at each venue.

We keep 100% of the revenue and we sell both at concessions. So we have these little light boxes near all the cans of drinks and we also have gob green bright vending machines. Right. Okay.

Are you able to work to make independent deals with other music festivals or are you exclusively tied in with AEG now? We are their exclusive hearing protection, but we are not exclusive. We can definitely work with other venues. One of the things, I think of course, where you are in San Francisco outside lands on the biggest festivals where people would be more receptive to really listening and hearing about the story, and they keep thinking about it as airlines.

We are people who have time to really look at a package and know particularly in first class when people get these kits in first class and they get a card with all the information about the products in there. And to me, it seems like an opportunity to get this in front of a pretty influential group of people. Have you approached your lines? We have, yes, and we're definitely going down the path.

It takes a bit of time. But what's interesting is some of our angel investors have invested because they have received those kits in business class and everything is quote unquote sustainable, but they still have the little phone earplugs in the plastic couch. So that's actually a fun fact that that's actually led quite a few people to investing in my company. Tim, when you are so you're planning on raising around in the not too distant future, what is the slide in that deck going to say for how we plan to use all your money to your investors?

The deck is together. So I'm the pitching. I'm in it. I'm in it.

So basically the funds will be used to set up operations. So we manufacture in the United States and we need to scale up our operations because right now we're building all of our products in a tiny little space in San Francisco and definitely need to move that into a 3PL on the East Coast because that's where a lot of our traction is. And we're also using that capital, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't using some of it for marketing, right? But I do have a bit of an allergy these days to advertising heavily on social media because it's just like so competitive and saturated.

So I want to use that in smart ways to do IRL experiences actually. Well, and also I don't know if this is part of your deal, but if you have sponsorship deals, right? Hopefully you have the ability. I don't know if this can be negotiated, but to use that brand on your website as right exclusive here in Protection Provider 2x.

I don't know if that's something you can finagle, but using that as part of your marketing for social credibility for some of the DTC stuff. Yeah, but what I'm hearing from you, Tim, is that this ability to capture eyeballs and capture people in real ways in these B2B spaces is maybe more impactful gaining trust of consumers. Is that what I'm hearing? I think that that's one way to approach it.

I wouldn't say it's more effective, large, but it may be more effective for your stage of funding, if that makes sense. Because if you're like, we're going to go full DTC, you're going to need more than one person to do everything that will be required to make good use of investor funding. To make that count, as you said, in a very competitive, certainly online landscape, which is why you lean towards IRL. But if you had the right employee or contractors for selling into more, let's just call it, venue conglomerates that run multiple locations, you could actually get a lot done with one full time, one part time or several part time.

And I think that's harder to do direct to consumer, in that sense. I agree. I keep thinking about monster energy drinks, right? And what they did and how they scaled so quickly was they made a decision when they were launched.

They were going to work with motocross and MMA and heavy metal concerts. And so they focused on those three areas, targeted those fans, those kinds of people. They were going after men who loved heavy metal music. And monster became the number two best selling energy drink very quickly.

And it's interesting here, because you've got the music venues, but it sounds like the sleep side is really where you see an opportunity. And I wonder whether there's an opportunity to partner with some of these brands that are known for sleep, a certain mattress brand or something connected to sleep, if that's something that you want to move towards. Yeah, that's a really great thought. And it's complicated, right?

Because the use cases that we're attracting are so opposite. And so those brand partnerships feel very important, because they already have leverage and they already have an audience, which is really nice and good for us. And I will note you mentioned monster energy. I am very lucky to have just hired the ex VP of Cult and Doctrine Nation from liquid death.

He just joined our team this week and he's going to be going out there and trying to get as many new brand partnerships as possible. So I'll give him that task of looking more into the sleep side just as much as the venue side. Awesome. Lauren, what is the retail price?

Yeah, so we sell our smallest SKU, which is two pairs, four or five dollars, four pairs for 10. And before us, the venue was selling one single pair of foamies for between five to ten dollars. Oh yeah, so you're really good. Yeah, really good position.

Yeah, there you go. Lauren Menard, the brand's called Guy Birth. Congrats. Good luck.

Keep us posted. Thank you so much. What a pleasure. All right.

Thank you. Thanks Lauren. Thanks. I love that idea.

It's a cool idea. One year plug, like hack that I used when my kids were little when they were babies. We would go and we'd get on an airplane because you get an airplane with a baby and you almost, oftentimes you'll sit next to somebody and you can just tell. They're just like, oh my God, I got to sit next to this person with a baby for the next four hours.

And what we would do to disarm people is go to the people in the room front and behind say, hey, I have a baby. It's a chance he's going to cry, but I brought some earplugs and if anyone would like some, please take some and have the bag and I pass it around and nobody would ever take the earplugs, but they would always be so nice to us because we just made that gesture. So half of me. I love that.

Bring a bag of earplugs cost you $4. CVS or $9.95. You get up. My buddy had an adjacent strategy, which was anybody want to fuck a ton.

I'm buying everybody tricks. I love it. That's great. That's great.

A little bit more expensive than earplugs, but yes. Not usually exclusive. All right. We're going to take a quick break, but we'll be right back with another caller and another round of advice.

Stay with us. I'm Guy Raz and you're listening to the advice line right here on How I Built This Lab. Welcome back to the advice line on How I Built This Lab. I'm Guy Raz and I guess today's entrepreneur and investor Tim Ferris and we are taking your calls.

So hello. Hello, caller. Hi, my name is Emily. I am an Ebenco, which is a women's accessories brand based out of Kansas City, Missouri.

We specialize in sizeless gifting and we have mainly hair accessories and jewelry. We were founded in 2012 and Midwest Early. Nice. And welcome to the show.

So Ebenco accessories. So like hair bands, like I used like rings, earrings, bracelets. All of the above and more earrings are kind of the big hero products for us. I have a manufacturer and India that I work with that does handbeat stuff.

So we have some custom headbands, scrunchies, all the fun things that make an outfit look more finished when it's not. Awesome. And you have a brick and mortar store in Kansas City? I have two brick and mortar stores.

I also wholesale at the airport and I rent booths inside other stores as well. And are most of your sales coming in through the store? Are you also selling online? Where do you sing most of your revenue coming from?

Well, last year was a bit of an outlier because Taylor switched to War, My Ring and we went viral. Sure. What was your ring? What was the ring?

What was the ring she was wearing? Well, it was Travis Kelsey themed, of course, guy. Yeah. It's a jersey and we developed a relationship with Donna and we kept gifting her things that were Travis Kelsey themed that we created.

Donna's his mom, right? Yeah, my fault. Okay. I got you.

Okay. So you made rings that had a jersey was on the ring. Yeah. Like, like, it's okay.

I got you. So Taylor Swift War, one of your rings. Yeah. To the AFC Championship, which will be the Super Bowl.

So if you can imagine my mind being blown and then all of a sudden like that Shopify thing happening and it's like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Okay. Now I'm looking at now I see it because you have all you've got these rings with the jerseys. So you have Taylor Swift War when he's rings and imagine it had an impact on your sales, right?

Yeah. So my sales went up 50% from 2023 to 2024. Wow. Amazing.

So we doubled and it's been bananas. It's been a wild ride. And I hope to give her the biggest bear hug someday. All right.

So tell us what your question is for us today. So my question is in 2024, my brick and mortar sales went up 37%. My wholesale orders went up over 300%. And so I'm trying to decide, even though the majority of my business, about 90% of my revenue coming in is in that retail direct to consumer.

My wholesale side is what has a much significant more growth. So should I follow what is where the money's coming from? Or should I follow what areas growing the most aggressively? All right.

Lots to think about. Tim Ferriss, I want to bring you in here questions for Emily. Yeah, sure. Well, congrats on a lot of different aspects of the business.

You've made it past a lot of places where other companies do not cross the river set of space. So congrats on that. Yeah. I don't even know what to say about Taylor Swift.

I'd say that maybe a non recurring phenomenon. And so probably don't want to bank on that. But my God, congratulations. Let me just a couple of questions related to products.

Are the earrings the best selling category of product? Yes. Okay. By how much?

Say about 50%. Okay. So the earrings are huge. In terms of this is coming to your question related to wholesale and say the brick and mortar.

So you're talking about revenue. If we're talking about bottom line, profit, however you want to define that. What is actually contributing the most of the moment? Is it still the brick and mortar?

What do you say? Yeah, it's the retail side for sure. So D to C definitely gives us more revenue last year to count it for 89% of all revenue. And 13% was wholesale.

The great thing about wholesale is that there's not as many expenses, right? But at the same time, it's just not accounting for as much revenue. So that's why I'm having a hard time deciding which area to focus. If you were to basically get the wholesale up to the point that it was generating the same as your current brick and mortar, how would you feel about that versus keeping the wholesale where it isn't basically doing the same doubling, but with brick and mortar?

I mean, wholesale is great because it essentially acts as a Shopify order. It's just bigger. And I already have all those systems in place. You know, I have a fulfillment manager.

I have a fitness assistant manager. We ship out of our store. So it doesn't take more calories from me to execute that, but opening more stores takes a lot more energy, right? Like I have to prove everything and go go sites and find what feels good and negotiate.

You know, wholesale is just another online order, which doesn't take any energy for me. So I would love that. And that's one reason why we're putting so much energy into growing that. But it's just hard to prioritize it that much when 90% of the revenue is coming from direct to consumer.

Emily, do you have a sales team or a sales person who focuses on wholesale? It's me. I'm over here. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, is there a world where you can hire somebody at maybe even on a part-time basis to only focus on building the wholesale business? Yeah, totally. I mean, I think that has some links to it for sure.

I'm really trying to focus also on like customized pieces too. And that was a new area that we're developing. So I've been really focusing a lot on building those direct to other business like relationships, but that's definitely something that I want to work on. And have you done Trechos?

Any Trechos? I haven't. I haven't. No.

Because that would really be the fastest way for you to get some wholesale deals done. I mean, it sounds like you really want to build the wholesale party or business out. That what you're saying is the potential is greater there, which I agree with. And in some ways it's easier.

They're obviously downsides too, but it's easier with what you are doing rather than trying to open up other brick and mortars. Because brick and mortars expensive, it's challenging. There's a lot of moving parts there. And it depends and relies on foot traffic.

Yeah, for sure. And it's done in really well for me. And so I think that's another thing that's like, man, it's a lot of fun to have a space where people enjoy talking about your digital detoxing, like getting out of your house, getting off of your computer, walking around a store, trying things on. So I enjoy creating those spaces.

Well, let me hop in here for a second just to say, I don't want to discount that. So if the only thing that mattered for your quality of life were growing the business, then there would be one line of thought in a certain state. But people start businesses and run businesses for a million different reasons. And not everyone's trying to build the next startup that they sell to, meta or Google or whoever.

So if you really enjoy the time in those spaces, I think that number one, they're not mutually exclusive, but you could take the attention on growing brick and mortar and apply it to wholesale for a period of time. You decide for six to 12 months, I'm really going to focus on wholesale. Can still keep the brick and mortar running, but maybe there are places where we can streamline. Maybe there's extra help I can bring in.

And I agree with a guy that trade shows could be interesting also. You don't necessarily need to booth. If you just have samples of your products, you can meet not only direct wholesale customers, but also potential distributors that's going to affect your profit margins. So I think it's relatively speaking, very low cost way of doing a lot of really valuable in-person research.

Yeah, totally. And when people get their hands on it, they are like, I'm in. And so, yeah, I can definitely see your point in that. When people try it on, it's easy.

Guy, I think Tim's idea is great. Make a decision that you're going to spend six to 12 months on this thing on this wholesale side and test it out. And you're trying to position yourself for the day after the Taylor Swift bump ends, but then you won't need it anymore because you've built out the wholesale business. Yeah, I think that sounds great.

I tried to get some brain quick in today and I couldn't get my hands. I was like, what do you think we're a starboard shooter? I can try to. Yeah, it's been a few decades.

I sold it. So I'm not sure what they did with it. Maybe I got set out to pasture for all I know. Emily Bordner, the brand is called Eevee and Co.

Congrats. Good luck. Keep us posted. Thank you.

And I just want to say you both have been so instrumental in inspiring me to make my business. So thank you. Thanks for listening. Yeah, that's awesome.

Okay, next up after the break, another caller with another business challenge. I'm Guy Ros and we're answering your business questions right here on the advice line on how I built this lab. Welcome back to the advice line on how I built this lab. I'm Guy Ros and today I'm taking your calls with entrepreneur, investor, author and podcaster Tim Ferriss.

Tim, you're ready to get our next caller on. I am right. Let's do it. Alright, let's bring our final caller welcome to the advice line.

You are on with Tim Ferriss. Tell us your name where you're calling from and just a little bit about your business. Hey, Tim and Guy, thank you so much for having me. I'm Kimberly Becker and I'm a clothing designer calling in from Wilwich, Maine.

My brand is Kay Becker. It's a collection that I've designed with a focus on women over 40 years old, which is me. And this is a group of women who have been looking for high quality clothes for quite a long time. It's an underserved population in the fashion industry.

And you design all the clothing? I do. Wow, amazing. And they're manufactured overseas in Asia?

No, I have a team in New York City and the fabrics are sourced from Japan and Italy, mostly a lot of deadstock fabric. So most of the fabric is quite sustainably sourced and really high quality. And deadstock means fabric that was that one manufacturer too much of and so it's available. Yes, exactly.

That's awesome. I love that. And I'm looking at your website now and it's beautiful. I mean, amazing.

So did you you studied as a fashion designers at your background? I'm actually a textile designer by training, which I bring a unique angle to the apparel industry. I worked in almost every cotton mill in America before they all closed. Wow.

And it's got a little bit of an Eileen Fisher kind of vibe to go in for a little bit. Yeah, so I listened to your interview with her. Years ago, yes. Yeah.

She really, I mean, changed the fashion industry for women, gave women a way to dress in a, that sort of Japanese aesthetic is so timeless and so beautiful. But I almost think of myself as her alter ego. We're not trying to make sort of a simple boxy silhouette. We're trying to bring style fashion forward sort of whatever was on the Paris runways so that it's not dumbed down.

It's not timeless. It's not shapeless. How many years have you been doing this? So I launched in October 2023.

So I'm quite new. And from year one to year two, we've doubled our sales. I sell direct consumer on my website, but really primarily I'm doing this all in person. So you are the designer and the CEO and the sales rep.

It's all you basically. Basically. And have you broken past 100,000 sales, 200,000 sales? At the end of this year, I believe will be at 75,000 in sales.

So we're slow and steady here. Awesome. All right. Let's hear your questions and then we'll dive in a bit deeper.

Okay. So I want to shift away from an inventory model to a preorder model. In other words, you're carrying inventory and you want to shift away from that model. Yeah.

So being a small sustainable indie brand, we can't compete with the huge corporations that massive over produce and then deeply discount and unload at the end of the season. It's not, it doesn't work for us financially and it's also just not sustainable. It's not good for the earth to be doing it that way. However, the US population isn't so gained to wait five, six, seven weeks for a garment.

So the idea of preorder is that we actually take the orders and then manufacture what's ordered. So my question is sort of twofold. When do I make that move from an inventory model? And how do I shift the mindset from instant gratification to patients knowing you're going to get something great at the end of the day?

Yeah. A lot to think about here. And as you know, we've done a lot of apparel on the show and for people who aren't unfamiliar with the industry, you've got to anticipate what somebody is going to order and the more you make, the higher the chance you're going to lose money because you're making these all these high quality material making in New York. So I understand the challenge and you're looking at a way to basically show off a design but get taken preorders.

So then you've got the money in hand and then you only order what you need instead of having all this excess inventory. Right? Exactly. Okay.

Tim Ferris, I want to put you in here. A lot of things like Kimberly's idea. I mean, what she's doing is awesome. But consumer behavior is consumer behavior.

All right. So I'm looking at the website. I like the website, by the way. Very elegantly done.

I had a definition question for me because I've sadly no fashion sense. But what is choose the first piece of your capsule closet today? I mean, what is capsule closet? So in the sustainability world, the idea of a capsule closet is that you can have 10, 15, 18 pieces that you can mix and match.

You can wear again and again. That's the idea. I actually have clients that are basically every time I release a new piece, which I think of as the next piece and the capsule closet, they are buying it. They're like, I'm building my capsule through you.

Okay. Tim, you two have a capsule closet. It's a team. I didn't know.

I didn't realize. I didn't realize. So a couple of thoughts. I would say one company you might want to check out, run by a friend of mine, but it just so happens there might be some parallels.

It could be pretty interesting. His name is Zapp, but it's spelled S-E-P-H. Scared propercloth.com is his company. And he makes people wait.

And the company has been going for, I want to say, 10 years now, but started off with something like 10 different fabrics and one type of shirt in his apartment. And now it's this very successful company. So I would say that there are exceptions to the US customers not being ready to wait. So I would go add your way to try to find some of those outliers.

The second thing is that in terms of when to make the switch, I would reframe that question, how do I experiment? Because that's a risky switch. And so what I thought of were say limited drops where you don't make a full switch, but you test the waters to say, hey, guys, we're running a really limited edition as an experiment. Here's why it's exciting.

The race goes to the swift. We're only accepting this many orders, and then you're going to have to wait four to six weeks, right? But you make it a feature instead of a bug. That's a great idea.

And it would go right. It would dovetail beautifully with the small amounts of fabric I'm sourcing in those dead stock, like a beautiful Italian fabric. So I can only get 87 yards up or something. So yeah, like that's part of the story.

I wonder if the term preorder could be, could you say made to order? I don't know if that's going to make a difference or move the needle that much, but maybe preorder scares people because they think, oh, it's like a Kickstarter. You know, how many times have you given money to never ever rise, but maybe made to order like, hey, you know, we're going to make this order and we're going to start. We're going to right away.

It's worth trying again. I mean, I move the needle, but it's worth trying playing around the language. That's a great idea. Kimberly, I'm wondering, I mean, are you hoping to move exclusively to this model?

So in the long run, yes, it's in a way that goes to the whole idea of that, Tim, you talk about the smarter, not harder concept. So you design some by design 12 pieces a year and once a month, the new piece drops, those orders come in, the manufacturing happens. They all get shipped together, like consolidating the effort, but also then clients know when the next piece is coming. So they're watching for it.

They're waiting for it that Friday night drop. That would be the smartest way for me to reduce the amount of effort it takes to sell the product as well. Right. Yeah.

While you're working on the transition, is there a way to keep best sellers in stock, right? Or maybe you design sweaters or things that have a longer, more timeless lifespan that are always in stock as you transition more and more to the made order? Because there are things you can do to incentivize people free shipping. Maybe they get inducted into a club.

Maybe people get a first look at what you're working on. Maybe they get an insight into the sketches you're working on or photographs of you, you know, cutting material or drafting designs. I mean, that could be something that you may want to experiment with, too. You know, it's funny to say that because earlier when Tim was talking about his friends brand and the benefits that come from that sort of exclusivity, I was thinking it's the men's wear angle and things is so different than the way we sell women's wear.

But one of the aspects that I'm trying to embrace is to think more about men's wear and how it's pitched because you guys are much harder sell. You don't buy as much. And so you actually require a little bit more carrying through. And so in the idea of the club idea, which I love calling it that never occurred to me to do that.

But to send swatches of fabric for a new piece because the fabric is such a big part. The quality is such a big part of my brand to send a swatch of fabric and say that you're getting exclusive, like first touch, like first opportunity to see this beautiful gabbardine that we're going to be making the next blazer in. It's coming out in a few weeks. Keep your eye open when it drops.

You know, you would be one of the first people to get your hands on it. Yeah, sure. I feel and also coming back to what you said about consolidating effort. I love the idea of shipping swatches, but that seems like a turn into a hell of a lot of work.

And I'm not saying that's a bad thing to do, but you might be able to scratch some of this as iron for community where you give them a peek behind the curtain using something that's off the shelf like Patreon or private YouTube. Something like that. Like, Hey guys, this is what I'm looking at. This is what I'm working on right now.

And I'm always looking for low cost fast experiments that are easy to do. And if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. But if it does work, then all of a sudden you've created a new type of loyalty program, which has a community where they get to be part of it. And I also give people something to talk about about the brand that's unique.

Right now is everything. It's word of mouth is everything in this brand. Like we have to get people to the website or it's never going to happen. Well, it's just got to get that club going.

The exclusive club. I love it. Yeah. Kimberly, thanks so much for calling in.

K Becker designs. Good luck. Thank you so much. It was really lovely talking to both of you.

Thanks for having me. Tim, I'm not surprised. We've done over a hundred of these episodes now. And I'm not surprised that you really are like one of the best.

You have great advice. Thanks, man. It's part of the fun of business. Yeah.

It's a pleasure. And you can get handed a different Rubik's cube. Every day, every week. Yep.

Tim, before I let you go, I want to ask you a question that I've asked every returning founder on this show, which is if you go back to when you were kind of building your business, what advice could you have given yourself that would have been helpful? I would say first, there's no one right way to do it. And there's no one better finish line than another. In the sense that you don't have to build the next venture back startup.

You don't have to have your company bought by XRZ. You don't have to grow at a 200% per year. You might have a business doesn't grow at all. But it is deeply meaningful to you and you impact people or you love the craft you're involved with.

So I would probably say that. And then the second thing I would say is mind your mental health along the way. Get outside, get some sunlight, spend time with your friends as much as you pay attention to the business health. Also pay attention to the mental health and the social health side of things.

I love it. That's great advice. That's Tim Ferris, entrepreneur, investor, author and podcast. And now the inventor of new card game, Coyote.

Go check it out. It's available pretty much everywhere you can think of. Tim, thanks so much for coming back on the show. What a pleasure.

Always nice to spend time with you guys. Thanks for having me. Thank you. By the way, if you haven't heard Tim's original How I Built this episode, please go and check it out.

You will put a link to it in the podcast description. And here is one of my favorite moments from that interview. There's a difference between persuading someone to purchase a product and debating with someone who has no intention of ever changing their mind. I wasn't making that my job, which I think a lot of people do.

They make their job to convince the world and you shouldn't convince the world. You should convince the people who match most closely to what you're providing. So I came to believe early on that it's not about the number of people who don't get it. It's about the number of people who do get it.

Hey, thanks so much for listening to the show this week. And by the way, please make sure to check out my newsletter. You can sign up for it for free at GuyRos.com or on Substack. And of course, if you are working on a business and you'd like to be on the show, send us a one minute message that tells us a little bit about your business and the questions or issues that you're currently facing, because we would love to try and help you solve them.

You can send us a voice memo at hibt at id.wondry.com or call us at 1-800-433-1298. Leave a message there and make sure to tell us how to reach you and we'll put all of this information in the podcast description as well. This episode was produced by Norgell with music composed by Romtina or Louis. It was edited by Andrea Bruce.

Our audio engineer was Cina LaFredo. Our production staff also includes Alex Chung, Carla Estves, Casey Herman, Kerry Thompson, Katherine Seifert, Romel Wood, Sam Paulson, Neva Grant, and Elaine Coates. I'm Guy Raz and you've been listening to The Vice Line on How I Built This Lab.