Annika Hernroth Rothstein - Deported from Venezuela

Welcome to Deconstructed Criticism. My name is Aaron Flamm and today we'll be talking with journalist Annika Handel-Drochtstein about being deported from Venezuela. Annika has been a guest on this show before when we talked about reporting from Venezuela and the ongoing crisis in that country. Annika is an accomplished journalist that has been published in National Review and Washington Examiner, among other publications.

If you want to know more about me or this podcast, please go to www.aronflamm.com. That's Aaron with 1A and Flamm with 1M at the end and then dot com so that's fairly easy and you can support my work as well by, for instance, buying a t-shirt or a mum. But first, let's hear what Annika has to say. Enjoy.

Speaking English, welcome back to Deconstructed Criticism. It's the third time in a season. It's I think a record for any of my guests. Wow, quite a prisoner, huh?

Well, down for one in this case. So are you back in Sweden? I am back in Sweden, yes. They kicked you out to the country.

They kicked you out to the country. They did kick me out of the country. Yes. Why?

Well, I mean, that depends on who you ask, I assume. I mean, I would take that for being a journalist. I was deported. The official reason that I got a couple of days after I got back was that I did not have accreditation, which is, of course, a pretty commonly used reason to kick journalists out of countries where journalism is a very difficult and perilous task.

So yeah, that was the official reason. But you do have accreditation. You don't have it. I mean, I have from my employer, but that's not the same thing as being on the roster of, you know, officially being granted permission to be there by the governments of Venezuela.

So what happened then? Well, I mean, it was a, it was short and not so sweet. I arrived on the 18th to, well, my biggest reason this time for being there was actually to celebrate Passover. I was writing about celebrating Passover, which I thought was a very sort of poetic and romantic thing to be doing in Venezuela this year.

And I had everything set it up to do that. And given that Passover started on the evening of the 19th, I arrived around 3 p.m. local time in Cucus. And then as soon as I got into the line, the immigration line, I mean, obviously you're always a little bit tense entering the country.

You're a little bit hyper aware, if you will. But I made eye contact with a woman, one of the women in the that were at the counter. And you can tell sometimes, by the way, someone makes eye contact with you that they know you. Yeah.

And yeah, she, well, she knew me and she immediately looked at her phone. So she made eye contact and then looked at her phone. And I got, uh oh. So I start texting friends and contacts that were already in Caracas.

And I said, I have sort of a bad feeling. So if you don't hear from me within 30 minutes, do something, like make some noise was basically what I said. They said, Oh, it's probably fine. Like maybe they do know you.

Maybe they're keeping their eye on you. That's probable. But that doesn't mean that you won't be led into the country. So I thought, okay, fine, I get up to the counter and immediately start asking me pre nonsensical questions that I hadn't been asked before, such as do you have a paper receipt for your your hotel, which is something that obviously you don't have to have that.

But they I now know they were buying time. I didn't understand it at the time. And I said, no, but you know, I can get one if that's necessary. Just let me text my friend and he'll make sure that I have one.

They said, no, sorry, you can't use your phone. So I said, okay, so then what they said, well, we'll call the hotel. I said, fine, I have a number. They leave this guy leaves for 20 seconds and comes back and said, no, you don't have a reservation.

And I said, well, I know for a fact that I do. And in the meantime, I had kind of put my my hands in my purse and text it anyway, and asked my my colleague, my Venezuelan colleague to like send me a receipt right now. So I take out my phone and said, actually I have the receipt right here. And they said, well, don't worry about it.

Just stay right here. So they put me sort of in the corner of the room. And then after 10 minutes, four soldiers walk out, G&B soldiers in full uniform. And then I realized, okay, this is whatever is happening now is going to be bad or worse.

And they talk on myself for a while and said, come with us, which is again, not a great thing to hear anywhere and definitely not there. And they lead me to the back of the arrival hall in a room that says special security. And you know, you don't know what's going to be on the other side of that room. I was actually relieved when I thought that there was actually security personnel there.

And they start taking out my stuff to tell me to take off my shoes, take out my jewelry. They don't look at any of these things. They don't care. Again, they're buying time.

And a fifth soldier comes and he's carrying a piece of paper. I asked to see the piece of paper. He says no. But I do see what it says on the top of the piece of paper.

And it says military intelligence on it, the abbreviation for the Venezuelan military intelligence. And then I realized, oh, this is very, very serious because it's not, it's not police. It's not military. It's military intelligence, which is sort of the second to the top, second from the top tier, as far as danger goes, and as far as serious as this goes.

So they lead me down to the departure hall after doing this. They lead me down to the departure hall. And at this point, I'm getting really upset and I take out my phone anyway and I text my colleague and I said, I'm pretty sure they're going to deport me. And he says, okay, all we can do right now is make a lot of noise.

So while I'm walking with these soldiers, getting more and more upset, my friends and my contacts in the country and around the world are tweeting about this and basically saying that a Swedish journalist is about to get deported. And I realized that there's really nothing you can do once they've made a decision. But either way, I wanted someone to know and I was hoping against hope that they something could change, that someone would wield some sort of influence and make a change. We get to the desk of the Air France desk, get the departure hall.

And that was one of the more upsetting things because of course no one is talking to me. I'm asking questions all the time. Why am I gone wrong? What are the charges?

Why am I being removed from the country? What's happening? Where's the documentation? Can I have a translator?

Can I have someone present? I have the right to have someone present if they're charged against me and no one is saying anything. I'm giving nothing. They've taken my passport.

So I have no passport at this point. One of the soldiers have my passport. They go out to the Air France desk and everyone's immediately complies with them. And no one speaks to me, which is another issue that I'm fighting right now.

The fact that I bought a service from this company and they don't even speak to me. They just listen to the military and do what they say, which I'm somewhat uncomfortable with now on hindsight. And then the soldier, one of the younger soldiers who actually ends up speaking English, he's obviously quite uncomfortable. Three of them are very rude and very rough with me.

But one of them is obviously one's nothing to do with this. And it's really uncomfortable because at this point I'm visibly upset. And he says, I'm sorry, you're being deported. This is political.

You're getting in the middle of something. This is not about you. You've just got mixed up in something. I'm so sorry.

And I'm being rude with him just because I'm upset and I need someone to be rude with. But this poor guy, he obviously is trying to make me feel better. But then I send a series of suites because I told him I'm going to take my phone now. I'm going to use it because they're putting me on a plane.

He says, OK, so I tweet out a series of four or five suites when I basically say I'm being deported. I have no idea why I don't have my passport. I don't have anything. I don't know where my suitcase is.

And I've done nothing wrong. And then two of the soldiers escort me for the Air France flight. And now I understand why they were trying to waste a lot of time because they don't want me loose in the departure halls and they were trying to get time to pass as best they could by asking all of these questions and looking through my stuff. And so I'm escorted to the back of the flight.

My two soldiers, which in itself is a humiliating experience because everyone is of course is wondering what does the Chid do? And no one asks you. They're just sitting there like a criminal. I had nothing.

Not even my password. I'm getting this little tiny slip of paper where they said, you know, police will come get you when you land in Paris and you will be taken to the police station and there you can ask for your passport back. And that's all I'm told. And so, you know, nine hours later, you know, armed police, French police come and pick me up in my seats and bring me to the police station.

Really? Yeah. Because I read some of the stuff that you sent me and then I follow you on Twitter as well, as you know. So you're called me some stuff now.

I am. Yes. So of course, you know, what happens is when you have, well, you know this better than I do because I believe you have significantly bigger footer presence than I do. But once you once you have enough followers, it goes around the world quite quickly.

And because I've been writing about and from Venezuela for a long time, people who are involved in this issue and care a lot about press freedom and freedom in general, of course, got righteously pissed off when they saw that this had happened to me. And it made a lot of noise and probably more noise within Venezuela than maybe the government expected. So, and the government supporters expected. So of course, there's this counter attack, which should supposedly explain why it was removed.

So there's been a whole network of trolls attacking me in the past week saying that, you know, I'm a massage agent because I'm Jewish, because I have ties to American think things I was put there. I was placed inside of Venezuela, apparently, to take down the government. I'm, you know, a secret imperialist, all of these things, which of course is describing me kind of power that I'm, you know, as my best friend said, she said I had no idea you were so all powerful, you know, you alone can go inside a country and take it down. But they're using everything and the kitchen sink and kind of throwing it at me now.

And the Jewish angle, as always, is, is front and center of that. So I'm moving around. Right. So I'm being called a massage agent and, you know, imperialist pig and all of these things.

So let's get to the first question then. Are you a Zionist? Oh, yes. Because I found an article that says you're a Zionist.

Yeah, and that is actually correct. What does that mean to you? Well, I'm a supporter of the Jewish state and the right for Jews for us Jews to have a state of our own and the recognition of the state of Israel and the building of the state of Israel. And that in short is what it is to be a Zionist.

It's not even nowadays. It's not even that much of a political statement, I think. I mean, it's not being attached to all of these different things, but to me, it's just a very simple fact. It's like saying I'm a Jew.

Israel exists. Israel exists. And what I'm saying when I say I'm a Zionist is that I recognize the right for Israel to exist. And also, I guess, in you know, in a larger sense, my world to keep building that country.

But don't live there. You don't live there. I don't. And I think that's what's difficult for a lot of people to understand that Jews are more than one thing.

It's more than a religious identity. It's people hood. It's all of these things and a connection to a land that you don't necessarily live in. And that's why it's so easy to slander Jews with a word that is actually a beautiful thing and a very, very simple and simplistic statement that after millennia of persecution, we have a state of our own and that I celebrate that.

And also, I mean, if you know anything about intelligence services, you would know that no one would hire me. I do know that. But most people don't know you, Anika. That's the thing.

The first thing I thought when you told me you were accused of being a Saudi agent, I was like, no, they don't recruit people that are, I mean, you're not a very discreet person. Which is the most diplomatic way to put it. I mean, this is people, it's laughable because my entire life or better words is out there, right? And also on my Twitter, it says, I'm the Jew that Mel gives and warns you about like that small tagline.

So if I'm trying to hide something, I'm doing a really bad job of it, right? Well, you're hiding in plain sight. It's either or, isn't it? Oh, I see is this.

Yeah, of course. Well, I'm going to give the, what was it called? The 40, not cool times. Yeah, it actually, it was originally published in something that is called me, something that which is a government sponsor.

Sorry, it's called the Enoch Court Review. Yes, I did read it. And I also read their sounds on Zionism, which they have published. Really?

Yes. Oh, I did not get that. It's a racist ideology of, well, I guess racial supremacy. Oh, I see.

Wow. Okay. It's not a very unusual opinion to hold, especially if you're on the left in South America. Right, I mean, I guess that's true.

It's just to me, it becomes ridiculous at a certain point, also because I know how vulnerable I've been in this process and during these three months of reporting, well, you've been there sort of since they won with all these interviews. I haven't been there. I just typed you. So I've been quite safe here in so-called war, relatively safe.

True. But it's interesting to me because not only have I, you know, been put in very vulnerable positions, but also I've taken so many steps to be fair in what is a very unfair situation. I've been trying so hard to cover all sides of this. And I've been hated by, I think, from the left to the right in this process, by going into areas, you know, covering colonic thivos, giving sometimes, you know, a very measured, giving very measured opinions on very difficult things, everything from the Venezuelan government to the colonic thivos.

And, you know, not slamming anyone and definitely not seeking to overthrow or malign anyone, which is why, yeah. You are an anti-socialist that we can declare clear about. I mean, because I have interviewed you, so I have your own tape saying this is socialism. I think also I have myself on the record that's in that numerous times.

And I have very clear political ideologies. And I think that's also why it becomes ridiculous when you see an article like that saying, aha, got you. We'll come to the Audino poll. Okay.

Soon. You didn't give me enough time really to do research because I do prefer to have a week or two. But what so they accuse of being an activist. Right.

Exactly. Because you have taken sides according to the regime, I suppose. Yeah. I mean, according to them, I will say that there are if I'm going to agree to something, I would say that, of course, I gave a statement publicly in the National Assembly, which was asked if you were to take sides and you said you can't take sides, but you would prefer to be on the side of freedom.

Yeah. Which is to me, not a very radical statement. I mean, to me, it's sort of should be second nature to anyone. And what I did there, and what I was very careful to do was that I spoke about, I was invited to speak about my experience being taken by the collectivos and how did gunpoint.

And that was what I spoke about. Not once did I mentioned the government, not once did I malign anyone. What I did was speak about something that was obviously criminal activity to hold a journalist at gunpoint, threatening their lives and, you know, slapping them across the face. And for me, it's bizarre to be called an activist by calling out what it was obviously a crime committed.

So calling the inactive, yes, I was on the side geographically. I was in the home of the opposition telling that story. But I'm so confused you're being very close to a lot of the opposition in the. And the reason, yeah, I mean, I think what they were saying between the lines was actually they're they're alluding to me having a relationship with a particular person within the opposition even, which has also been a very popular type of commentary on the internet in the past week that apparently the reason I'm so involved is that I have an opposition boyfriend, which, you know, for the record, I don't, you know, I'm still gloriously single.

However, you know, I just want the internet to know because it's important. It's hard out there for a single dress. So the point is that I have tried to get access to the government. I have tried for three months to get access to every level of the government.

If I was invited to go speak with the government and to speak about my experience in Venezuela publicly in the same halls, but for the government, I would 100% do that. If I was allowed to sit down with Maduro, I would do that. If I was allowed to sit down with him, I would do that. And I have tried and tried and tried to try.

But the issue in Venezuela is that the people that will grant me access are opposition, which is also why I've taken extraordinary steps and put myself in danger to go to places that are only accessed by chubby stuffs that are only accessed by polythepos to give a very fair and balanced view in a place that where no one does that because it's easy, you know, it's easy to say, oh, you know, why I've always got now I'll go back and do, you know, it's a comfortable Europe again and do my reports from there. But I didn't do that. I kept staying, you know, even though it's like I'm having this very difficult, it's like a romantic relationship, a very tumultuous romantic relationship where you keep being treated like shit, but you keep coming back and feeling the love regardless. And that's sort of my relationship with Venezuela that I keep coming back and trying to give fair assessments of a very difficult situation, which is why I don't really understand why they deported me in the first place because, you know, this doesn't look good for anybody.

And having me in there and allowing me to access would probably be a better course of action, you know, in my humble opinion. Well, the other line of attack against you in the, let's find out what they were called, Audieno, or Cribu, or local three. They're getting a lot of shout out today. Yeah.

And they will get more. They will get more shout outs. So they accuse you of being too close to Sheldon Adelson, which is a rich American Jew, if I'm not mistaken. I mean, the rich American Jew from what I heard, yes.

Well, there are several. Yeah. So, and a part of the TICWAC on, which is a Zionist organization. Yeah, it is and also politically conservative, which is, you know, that too.

Yeah. So it's all of those things. And yeah, I studied at the TICWAC on New York, and I think it even says so on my, like it says so everywhere. It's on my Wikipedia.

It's not a secret. No, and I'm quite proud of it. I mean, it's a very distinguished place and I've learned a lot and this is a think tank where you study under a lot of very distinguished, knowledgeable professors and excited religion there. I've studied, you know, freedom of speech, military issues, all of these things, because this is my line of work, of course.

These are the things I cover as a journalist and I've never tried to. But how do you view journalism? Because I've read a few articles of you and you are quite emotional. I am.

Yeah. And I think that's, that's what put me in this position. It's the blessing of the curse of it all that I kind of walk into these situations, hard first. And even, you know, my story.

Always bring first. No, I can't. Yeah, but I'm not like, I'm not on that whole, you know, Jordan trait. I don't do that.

Like this is, what I'm all heart sort of. And that's why I think, I think why people respond to the work that I do, because I'm obviously emotionally invested. Someone say that that's not okay for a journalist to put so much of themselves into it and to see one of those people actually. Yeah, but if you're just a writer, then fine.

I mean, if you like no rules or a, yeah, I guess, whatever. Hemingway wasn't a war, I think. Yeah, well, yeah, I mean, well, and his works weren't that emotional. So that's the thing about it.

I'm trying to stay away from the Hemingway comparison as best I can, but I will say that I think that what I'm doing is for short journalism, because if I wanted to, if I wanted to give the emotional narrative, if I wanted to sell a romantic story, then my smart thing to do would be to solely cover the opposition and then write that narrative as it's being sold. But what I have done, especially in the last month, is I wrote, well, one very saving article about Guaido and the opposition and the failures of that opposition and why I think they've lied to a certain extent and failed to several extents. The opposition, yes. Because you were one of the first journalists to go to interview Guaido.

Yes, Guaido. Yeah, and I did that on my first trip, and then after my third trip, seeing how things change and especially after what happened at the border on the 23rd of February, again, with both brain and emotion, I could see that something was tangibly different in the country and how people felt about the opposition and then learning more about the history of the work that the opposition had done, I wrote a very long article for the Daily Beast about what I thought was basically Guaido dropping the ball. And if I feel like I've received hatred now from the Chibis, it's nothing compared from what I received from the opposition then, because of course they felt that I had failed them, that I should be on a certain side and I was not. And I got the same type of hatred when I went into Vapita and met with a talk called Akhiba Boss in Venezuela.

And when I sat down and spoke with him, because they thought me being in that room was selling out, me being there was siding with evil basically. And so I think that you can be emotional, because I am emotional about Venezuela. I am emotional when I see things that evoke human emotion, but I also think that it's the most effective type of journalism because today everyone has flooded with information, but you need to sell the story, you need to sell it, come at people like a human being. And for better or worse, like all my flaws are out at any given time.

I'm really telling stories in real time and I'm doing it as a person experiencing it in real time. And I think that's why it's very effective. And I think also that's why it's perceived as quite threatening by certain people, because I'm alone out there. I go out alone and I'm experiencing and learning and asking questions as anyone would in that position.

And I don't think it takes away from my journalistic effort, not at all, because I adhere to the rule of sourcing. I am fair and balanced more than most, to be honest, especially when it comes to Venezuela. But yeah, I've been photographed crying and laughing and dancing with travistas and hugging opposition, because these are people and I relate to those people. And I show that there are, like I said, once and many times perhaps is that there are a lot of colors in Venezuela and none of them are black and white.

And nor, you know, there are no black and whites in these stories, unfortunately, no unequivocally good and bad. It's just a really fractured and broken society. And that's why it's important to be there. So how is press freedom in Venezuela at the moment?

Well, I mean, I was deported. I mean, for internal media. Oh, I mean, anything that I go through is nothing compared to what my colleagues go through on the ground, of course, because for whatever reason, you know, I have a certain amount of security with the Swedish passport, with being able to reach much further than most Venezuelan journalists can. And the things that happen in the cover of darkness, when you know, somewhere between horrible and despicable.

And for them, you know, it's everything from threats outright violence. There is no, there is no freedom of press there. And I think that's, I think they're ranked now 149 out of 180 on the freedom press, freedom house list, press freedom, if I'm not 148 or 149. And they've been dropping for the past two years on that.

Do you know when the orinoco Tribune was started? I don't. Yeah, 2018. Really?

Yes. Well, isn't that. So they have almost a full year of reporting behind them now. And do you know who finances it?

I can't believe that you've done this research in what's well hours now going on? Well, it seems to be a regime funded effort. Right. Well, I mean, because the original article is from a sombre that so it's not that the fact that I got translated in the first place is a little bit you know, it seems like the orinoco Tribune does that it curates Spanish or into English.

And they seem to have what I would call a leftist bias. Oh, well, I would see. Okay. Well, I mean, this is this is part of the effort now.

And I mean, this is what people do on all sides, I guess, but this war of information. The reason why it's important for us, for my colleagues and I to be there in other places in the world where it's sort of this black spot on the media map is because this is a very effective way to oppress the people to sustain a government to keep people in dark literally and figuratively is to cut them off from the rest of the world. And it's also the reason why I call them out, why I said that, you know, I won't need with anybody, but you need to allow me in if you claim as they do to have freedom of press, the one of the top ministers gave a statement right after I was deported. I think a few hours afterwards when we saw that this was getting a lot of press and he said, well, we have 50 accredited journalists in Venezuela.

And then of course, I replied is, well, I know which outlets they are representing right like these are press TV. This is this is RT, this is, you know, they would have a bias and I said, this is not the measure of freedom. The measure of freedom is to let people in who wouldn't necessarily agree with you to have transparency. And I still hold to that.

And Venezuela as a country is sort of imploding at the moment, right? I mean, the migrant crisis is huge. Malaria is spreading like wildfire apparently according to the financial times. Well, first of all, I mean, you have 10% of the population outside of the country now.

Like that's the expense of the of the crisis, you know, the migration crisis, but they are flooding the borders and fleeing if they can, right? And then of course, you have no water. Hardly any electricity at least in the past month when I was there, there were five consecutive days of blackouts and then, you know, blackouts that come and go. And it seems like almost rolling blackouts at this point, like they do in South Africa to maintain the system.

So they have blackouts from 5 p.m. every day, for example. And then of course, you have no medicine, you have no morgues because, you know, so you have a crisis that becomes this humanitarian catastrophe, right? You have violence, you have systemic violence, you have paramilitary, I mean, the list goes on and on, you have no cash, right?

Yeah, they have a shipload of oil. Yeah, but then they have no way of replying. So if you have no way of refining it, if you have no system, if that system is broken, you have no way of generating income to your country, then what, then what is it worth? Really?

Nothing. The infrastructure is damaged or completely broken. Then you have no revenue. So of course, yes, the crisis, I think even at a certain point, the government will say they will also admit that there's a crisis.

It's just that they have a different, let's say, position on who costs that crisis and why they're a blackouts, for example, you know, during the five days that I was there and they were, you know, constant blackouts. They said that this is imperialist, whoever went to our electrical grid. But that's how they see it, you know that, don't you? I mean, they see it as on one side, you have the Shari Stas, right?

And they are supported by Russia, Iran, and Hezbollah according to you. Well, Iran is, this is a more complicated discussion because they're not actively supported by Hezbollah, Hezbollah existing in Venezuela is more perhaps a sign of Iranian support, rather than direct support from Hezbollah. I mean, I know it's like a technical, but it matters. No, it's important.

Don't be afraid to get complicated. I think my listeners are quite smart. Yeah, well, I've noticed, I've noticed because they seem to like me last time, which means that they're automatically, you know, brilliant. Yes.

Well, in your case, I understand that you view the world that way. I do not. No, okay. I'm not going to get too long.

Absolutely. You absolutely nowhere. Criticism will get you everywhere with it. Oh, I see, I see.

Okay. Well, I'm just going to leave that to the side. On the other side, you have like, you know, when they see the imperialists in their view is the United States, right? And that's where they punched you in now with Sheldon Adelson and ExxonMobil on the Shev Corporation.

Well, I mean, the line that they drew between me and Sheldon Adelson is, of course, beyond the obvious, which is then the do thing, right? Which is seem to be this. We're going to get to that on the go. Oh, really?

Okay. Well, don't worry. For me to, you know, circumvent this anyway. But the point is that I understand the worldview.

What I'm trying to do is push because I'm not involved in an ideological war. And I think that's... Well, I'm not... You are a Zionist, neo-conservative.

Well, I am a conservative, not technically a neo-conservative on all counts, but I will say I'm... Not according to the only North Court review. Well, I mean, how about the forces of math right here, right? Because I am actually, to a large extent, I'm more of a straight down the line classical liberal than I am anything else, which means that I'm not in favor of...

For an intervention in a lot of cases. I'm in favor of freedom, perhaps not absolute freedom, but pretty damn close. So I'm a conservative, very openly and proudly conservative, but that's not the flag I fly in my professional endeavor. And I think this is what people have to understand that everyone, every journalist walks into their profession carrying all of this internal bias.

Yes, but what we do as journalists is that we try to overcome that bias. Sometimes we do a good job, sometimes we fail, sometimes it shines through. Yes, this is the human condition, but nowhere... I think I'm quite proud of the work I've done in Venezuela because I try to keep my humility as far as I don't know that country.

I am getting to know that country. I'm just trying to report what I see right before me and place it in front of the world and say, there you go. Like, this is what I've been trying to do. And when I state an opinion, I've been very, very clear that this is my personal opinion.

And I mean, this is a tightrope. This is a tightrope act and especially in a place like Venezuela. But I don't walk in and say, hey, I'm going to do some, you know, Zion is conservative reporting and very rarely, you know, do I even mention the Jew thing? I try to stay away from it.

Other people like to talk about me as a Jew though, but... Well, it becomes sort of an issue for people. I mean, yeah, it's a constant issue for people as we've seen in the past 24 hours. I mean, that issue is more alive than ever, but you know, I don't walk in soon, I work that way.

Because you're explaining in your own words what the problem with Olinoco Tribune's little character assassination of you. Thank you for calling this pay to say, yeah. What the issue is with it? Yes.

That it is just that. I would say it's more than that. I would say it's an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. Oh, naturally.

But these are things that you and I think you kind of walk into the world expecting that. If you are a Jew doing any semi-puck listeners and you have viewers. Okay. Yeah, fair enough.

Fair enough. Well, I will say, okay, so what's the issue? The issue is, of course, that I am being told that as a Jew, I come with bias, that I come with, that I'm filth basically, that what I do is spread filth and that I spread an agenda and that I try to ruin the world as a part of this gigantic conspiracy that apparently I belong to. Right?

Yes. So that's at the heart of it. And beyond the anti-Semitism of it all upsetting me, it also kind of falls flat on its face if you try to pick at it. Because what has happened to me during my time in Venezuela proves that I have very little power.

I mean, that could be said for Jews as a group as a whole, given what we've been through through millennia, that if we had that power, would we, are there not a few things in history that we would have tried to prevent such and if we did control the media, then Palestine wouldn't be so celebrated in West. Right. And if I was the most sought agent, would I have been deported? Would I have been put through?

What I've been put through? Given what they, you know, how they feel and think about the most side. I mean, all of this is it's frustrating because what you're doing is you are fighting with absurdity every day. You are fighting with something that you think, oh, this is so blatantly untrue that why would people believe it?

But then you wake up to, you know, 125 Google alerts with people saying, wait just a minute, this woman has worked in Iran, in Siberia, in all of these places, why would she? And for them, the logical conclusion is apparently that I am a spy, that I am carrying an agenda, and it is exhausting. The least discreet, most emotional spy out of the mess. Yeah, and it's also, you know, I guess that's sort of my point because you try so hard to cover all sides, but you kind of, you're pulled back to this ground zero of you are a Jew, Errol, you can do no right.

You are always filled. And of course, you know, if I were prone to emotional outbursts, I would be very upset by that. Have you read the article about you? I have, yes.

Because I mean, the headline alone, I would say, is quite obviously not politically correct in most parts of the world. The Zionist plot between the Swedish journalist and Venezuela, Abrams, and Trump. Right. So how close are you to Donald Trump?

How close am I? Have I ever met the man now? Could I ever get him on the phone? No.

Would he know my name? No. How close am I to Ali Abrams? The connection between me and Abrams is the tickle fund.

He is on the board of the tickle fund. I study at the tickle fund. And that's it. Right.

But in their article, you are now, if I read it correctly, you're being deported according to you without course, according to them, because you've taken sides in the conflict. And because you work directly with Abrams and Trump to destabilize Venezuela, so that ExxonMobil can take over. Wow. I mean, first of all, again, all of this power that I suppose we have, wouldn't it be great?

Wouldn't it be great? I mean, it would probably burn a lot more, and that part would be amazing. Because, you know, as of now, I'm probably sort of 5k in the whole after doing this, you know? So yeah, that part would be great.

But no, this is what I mean about fighting with absurdity. Because what do I say? How do you prove a negative? Like, I don't know where to go from that.

No, it's a sort of, have you stopped repeating your wife sort of question? It is. It is, and not only that, I mean, I guess the point is that the work that journalists do, free nations, welcome that. They sort of see it as a point of pride to be covered in the media.

Which are those nations? Because I'm like, no, no, no, I'm trying to not get anymore enemies. Like, this is whatever I say. Like, I'm damn if I do, then if I don't.

So keep me away from controversy, I'm trying real hard here, you know, to be good, to lay well. But this is of course, we are the canary in the coal mine. Like, that's just what it is. Because once when you start mistreating us, when you start shutting us out, that is a telltale sign that something is up.

And so my message, as I thought, and I thought it was very clear is let me in. If you are the things that you say, if you stand for the things that you say, let me in. Because my presence there is proof of your theory, allowing me to do work, proves that your words are true and shutting me out disproves it. And it's so simple.

And all of this, all of these smokin' ears, the Zion is the plot, the Trump, you know, it's part for the course, I understand that. But it kind of doesn't look it. I understand that it's a method, but it's broken. It's a- Yeah, I would say they they've burned you pretty well now.

I kind of feel like you should be on my side in this and just- Oh, I'm on your side in this. No, I understand. But I mean, yes, they burn me for the- I'm like you, I can turn off my emotions and just ask questions. Oh, Lord.

Yeah, this is going to turn into a whole- I'm joking, I'm joking, Anika, I have no emotions to turn off. I know that, but we won't go into it. My point is that, that yes, it proves, it may prove the points to people who didn't need it in the first place. Like if this is your bias, if this is how you feel about Jews, you're going to feel this way about Jews no matter what.

I don't think me entering the country or exiting it makes that big a difference or an article from wherever makes that big a difference because if you think that Jews are evil and that we are part of plots wherever we go, that's your world, baby. Like that's between you and your god. I was wondering if this is what they translate into English. Oh, it's a pretty- It's a pretty nice normaly.

What? I read it in Spanish, by the way. And how was that? No, no, it's a literal translation.

It's a pretty literal translation. And I've also seen because of course I get paying when my name appears and everything. I've seen what they say on, they're a bit rude or like they were more sexual than you was on Twitter, I will say, more having to do with who they think I sleep with and why. There's more of a honey trap component on the Twitter.

That's how it generally works, apparently according to that. I'm just going to take this compliment. If they think I'm hot enough at this point to be a honey trap, God bless you. But other than that, this is what it is.

This is what they're saying. And these are the connections that they're making. And I guess me trying to prove it, it's incredibly naive. And maybe me being there in my work has been naive to begin with.

I don't know. A lot of people would probably say so. And that my efforts now, not to clear my name because I don't really accept the premise, but just to sort of state my case that that's idiotic to begin with. But it still means something because it's important to prove that this is part of a method to place 10,000 individuals and make it look like this is a wave.

That is a method used by people, states, organizations, to chase people out of business, to chase them out of countries. And it's kind of important to make people aware of that. Well, running countries is big business, especially if it sits on wealth in oil. Right.

And the point is, which I think is interesting, is that I've kind of made that point to begin with. I've also made the point, I've talked pretty anti-intervention at several points. I've made the comparisons with Iraq. And yeah, there are people, perhaps it's because of my visibility and of course all this emotion and whatever, my presence, which makes me a threat.

But I'm not the most scandalous person in that country saying the most scandalous things. That's for damn sure. So I don't want to say- Well, I read your pieces from the first two trips. And I see it as you through your usually emotional state.

You seem to have a soft spot for solving children, for instance. Yeah. No, that is those of us who have emotions, that tends to kind of rile them up. It stirs it.

It stirs something inside of us. And of course, I think the reason that people were interested in my work is that I went there blind. I went to Venezuela for the first time, and I reacted in real time to some things that were more upsetting than I can even describe. And I posted photos of things happening right in front of me.

And I reacted to them in a very emotional way. And I think that kind of hits you right in the ticker, as it hits me in the ticker. And that's part of what storytelling is. And journalism, at least in my mind, perhaps out of yours, is storytelling.

No, I don't believe in objective journalism at all. That's why I'm not a journalist. But what you saw is still real, because you can't read about it in other news outlets. Right.

It can be verified. And also today, because we're a dime a dozen. Journalist are a dime a dozen now. And you go to a specific journalist, and you follow a specific journalist because of the way we tell a story.

And that's just it. And I would make the case that perhaps there's not enough emotion, that when you see something that is objectively horrifying, maybe it's okay to say that, Holy shit, this is objectively horrifying, and this breaks my heart. And that's what I've been doing throughout all of this. And I think it works.

I think it's important. So do I. That's why I'm interviewing you. But so the situation in the country is catastrophe.

It's catastrophe. It doesn't seem to be solving itself in any way. No, it's getting, I mean, I would say now there are foreign actors and I mean foreign actors have been involved for a very long time. But now I guess, when you say foreign actors, I mean foreign presence in the country and for an interest in the crisis, meaning that.

But you mean foreign military presence? Yeah. And there has been foreign military presence there for a long time. You have your Cubans, you have your Colombians, you have your Russians, right?

Because when people say, oh, we don't want foreign military, but as well, it's important also to remember that what they're saying really, between alliances, they don't want Americans there. Because there is foreign military. I mean, at this point, there are 200 Russian troops and a lot more technical personnel have helping to build their infant, missile defense system, all of these things helping to build the infrastructure of the military. You have your Cubans there who have been there for a long time.

So of course, there's been, and you have Iranian presence by proxy there as well. So it's not as if foreign actors haven't been in Venezuela for a long time. So what's doing state building? Yeah, they're protecting considerable investment in debt that they have in the country.

And they've always been talked with like real-quality people. Like, it's not as if I think Vladimir Putin, he's one of those non-emotion people, I would say, that what he's doing is protecting an investment and future investments as well. And so you do what you can to support any actor that signals stability. And as of now, because Guaido has been unable to project stability and strength, and that's on him, and that's on the opposition, I would say, for sure.

That's his fault, and their fault. They have been unable to project stability. And if they did, I'm sure a lot of people would swap sides. But as of now, that's not what's happening.

That's not the trend. And now- What's your take on the relationship between Colombia and Venezuela at the moment? Well, I mean, it's, this is a complicated because of course you have a million and a half Venezuelans first of all living in Colombia. You have sort of an official stance of non-relationship between the two countries.

And you've seen Colombia go through something that possibly Venezuela could down the line. That a plan in Colombia could happen in Venezuela. I mean, a lot of people say, and I might be one of them, that that's the only possible route to rebuild, no matter who's in charge. Like, let's put that to the side.

No matter who's in charge, you still have an incredibly broken country, no matter what you think that reason for that is. And you need to rebuild it. And you don't have the infrastructure inside of the country to do that right now. So you need some sort of help.

Some would say that, oh, we can use the Russians for that. Other would say that the Americans are the optimal choice. And now the EU is getting involved, but you know, EU is going to be the EU. So that's- What's human by that?

I know what I would mean by that. But human. I mean that it's a useless paper tiger that does nothing and costs us everything. Yes.

Exactly or enough? It costs us. It delays other people. Right.

Yeah. And it's, it's, it's a meeting. It's a, it creates, you know, it's a committee. It's a big colossus of a committee.

And we all knew that, know that committees do nothing. And I actually ran into their, you know, special envoys at a hotel. And to me, it's very clear and it will help that I'm trying to get from the EU and the Swedish State Department. It's very clear that, you know, there is no on the ground help.

They're taking meetings and they're drinking coffee and God knows, you know, I assume nothing. Since you're a Swedish citizen, you're talking about the Swedish State Department. Right. Yeah.

But also because- So they offered you help, I guess? Oh, they did not. No. No.

No. And I very actively requested it. I mean twice. I requested it.

One situation where I was in danger in that I, for various reasons won't discuss. But I was, I requested direct help. Because there is no, long story short, there is no embassy in Venezuela, the closest embassy is in Bogota. They have a consulate, but it's an honorary consulate, which means that you have no diplomatic immunity.

You can't walk into that door and be safe. It's an office, like any other office. Right. But I happened to meet the diplomatic envoys when they were having a meeting with the governments and the opposition.

And we were at the same hotel. And so I ambushed them at breakfast when I had run into a slide for the trouble on one of my trips. And I said to them, you know, what are my options? What can you do for me?

And their answer was, because at that point, I asked them point blank. If I ever got into a lot of trouble, would you fly now? Could you take me with you? And they said, we have the highest taxes in the world.

Of course you'll get a private trip. Of course, because you're paying through the nose. Yeah. We'll get you a first class ticket.

So if only in Shava knows what they said to me was that what you we understand your predicament. That was the first thing. And that this is a very difficult situation for you. But we are not able to bring you to the airport with us because you don't have a diplomatic passport.

And I then said, well, all I ask is to go to the airport with you, basically just walk into the line with you and buy whatever security I can through just being surrounded by diplomats. And they said, well, actually that could make things very complicated for us. And that could make our relationship with the government deteriorates. And we wouldn't want to put ourselves in that position.

But we will investigate if maybe Spain are able to take you. Because since, well, because as a member of EU, if you're in a country and there is now, if you don't have a embassy of your own in a country, and you can request help from another EU member country. And because Spain has been helpful to journalists in the past, they said, well, we'll try and make some calls and see if maybe Spain can help you. So of course, nothing came out of that.

And then after my deportation, one of the first things I did was I called the State Department. And I spoke to the people who were responsible for the Americas there. And I explained what had happened. And they told me that not only were they unaware, but that there apparently is a clause that says that Venezuela is supposed to contact them.

Like this is the custom, that if they are deporting someone because they have diplomatic relations, you know, they're supposed to give a courtesy call and say, by the way, we deported one of your citizens. That never took place. So I wrote them an official letter and explained exactly what had happened and said, I would like you to make a statement, condemn me my deportation. And to show that you were on the side of not only your citizen, but a journalist and the work that we do and the values that we represent.

And I said to them very clearly that because you say that you were humanitarian superpower and that this is something that the State Department, you know, has a complete mention, I just about and can't shut up about, I would expect you to walk the walk and not just talk to talk. And I got a letter back that I also shared with you that it was a form letter. It was basically a form letter. Yeah, it was.

They offered no help whatsoever. No, and it was very clear that they're not going to make a statement. And they also said that, you know, if you get into an acute type of trouble, then you can call the hotline in Stockholm. But what I read and the screen dumps you sent me, they are in Swedish.

So it's no point in me reading them out loud. But what I read in the letter, you have asked them to make a statement, but also to clear your name, right? Yeah. And the point is, of course, because I said to them that I am the victim of slander at this point.

And I was, I was treated like a criminal. And it was not just humiliating, but it was also without grounds because I have done nothing criminal. No criminal. I do your job because everyone would think you're almost a agent.

Exactly. So this has a number of implications. And it's important for the state. I mean, that's the role.

And I have to say, really, when it comes to the what do you know, called Tribune, that it's one of the most obvious anti-Semitic conspiracy theories in modern, in modern form I've seen this week, because I see quite a lot of them. But I mean, there's, in the US, they have this game, you know, six degrees of separation. And in this case, they've done that to you. Her name is Anika.

She's Swedish. Trump has talked about Sweden. She's a member of Trump. And I mean, as you said, you have never met most of the people on the board of directors of the TikTok I've found.

I have met zero of them. That this is not something you do when you are a student in an institution. It's not like you schmooze with the people who are there and name only who get paid to be their name only to give credibility to get that institution. That's not something that happens.

And you know, your saying sounds like a joke and sounds like hyperbole, but that's actually what they did. They see me hugging this opposition member in a picture. And then they say that I'm sleeping with him. Like, this is what they do.

And I would laugh about it unless it wasn't heartbreakingly real to me. And this is why I said what I said to the State Department because this is their actual job. This is what they get paid to do. I am a journalist and as they wrote in this horrendous form letter that, oh, we care so much about human rights.

We care so much about freedom. We care so much about Venezuela. And what I'm saying is, Hey, here I am. You know, here I am.

I'm taking all of these boxes. And what I'm saying is stand by me, stand by my side and say that A, you know, you should not support journalists simply for doing their jobs when they're not breaking the law. And B, this is an anti-Semitic slander campaign against the Swedish journalist, again, this Swedish citizen and a member of the EU. And this is unacceptable.

And they're doing none of those things. Well, basically they are calling you a Jewish war. Yes. I don't want to be rude or anything.

No, no, no. I've seen so much words on the internet in the past week, you know, and, you know, during my lifetime. But yeah, that's what they're doing. They're saying that I'm a Jewish war.

And also I assume the implication of the Zionist thing is some, you know, imperialist murder or Zionist something or other like it's all in there. It's all based on this horrendous cake that they're serving up to the world. And this, even though it is expected when you were Jew anywhere and you're a Jew somewhat publicly, you know that this is going to be thrown at you. But in this case, after being in putting myself in personal danger, time after time to tell the truth to the world.

And this is what you get. Like, enough is enough at a certain point. So what are you going to do now? What am I going to do?

You mean in general? Well, yeah, you're out of the job. You're burned. The rule is always to continue to do your job.

You find a way to do your job. I'm trying to help keep your name here. But I don't know if I'm doing an okay job. No, no, no, I think it's good.

I think that's good. It's just the right level of pushback to it. We're just going to, I think, well, I mean, the step one is as for any freelancer, I'm going to try and sort of recoup my losses, lick my wounds and recoup my losses, because they have been significant in the past month and especially with this trip. So that sucks.

And then you keep doing what you're doing. I've proven so far that I have, you know, I'm a bulldog, I guess, in the sense that I bite down and I don't let go. And if I have a story that I care about, I'll pursue it. And I'll find ways of pursuing it.

And that's what I'm working on right now. Because the issue with this is, of course, that when they try to stop you from doing your job, it proves that you need to keep doing your job. No, it is quite impressive. I must say that they considered you a national threat.

Right. I guess that says something about the work I've done so far. And it is like the worst compliment ever and the best compliment ever. But it proves, I mean, this is why I went there in the first place, right?

Like you try to to force some light into the dark places on the map and you try to do good things. And I guess despite some people disagreeing with it, that it is a cause, there's a cause attached to this. And that is caring about freedom, caring about freedom of speech and caring about telling stories that otherwise would go untold. And I need to keep doing that because that's important.

And, you know, absolutely. Because also, I mean, since I spoke to you last, not just a few minutes ago, we're thinking everything about to help. But I mean, the world media has sort of gone silent about that. It doesn't really care anymore because there seems to be no solution in sight.

Yeah. And I think that's, I mean, as well as not the only place that suffers from this, obviously, it's just the place that I chose for now to cover. But what's heartbreaking is, of course, when I'm there, just walking in the street or sitting in a cafe, people, locals come up to me and literally hug me and thank me for being there. Because no one is talking, they're not the sexy issue anymore and they know it.