Welcome to Divorce Dialogues, I'm Catherine Miller. Divorce Dialogues brings expert guests to the airways to talk through your divorce questions and fill in the gray areas about separating. From thinking about divorce to how to behave during divorce to what to do after, this is divorce Dialogues. Welcome to Divorce Dialogues.
I'm Catherine Miller, I'm the founder of the Miller Law Group and Director at the Center for Understanding and Conflict. I am on a mission to change how people divorce and help them divorce with dignity. My guess today is Cameron Goodman. He's the founder of the Goodman Law Firm and experienced Chicago-area firms specializing in divorce and family law.
In addition to his law degree, Mr. Goodman also holds a certificate in litigation and alternative to speed resolution from Chicago Camp College of Law and a certificate in divorce mediation from Northwestern University. He's a fellow in the International Academy of Collaborative Law Professionals and has an active collaborative practice. Cameron's goal is to treat his clients the way he would expect to be treated himself.
Welcome Cameron Goodman. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you, Catherine. Thank you for having me on the show.
You know, I'm in law firm, so Chicago based firm, that's very similar in mission to yours. I look forward to chatting today about that. Yeah, and I'm really happy to have you on the show. We're sort of in really challenging times right now and really challenging for people, I think, who are divorcing or have been divorced with regard to having to know what to do with their kids and their custody plans and traveling and all of that.
And are you experiencing a lot of those kinds of issues with your clients? Absolutely. Absolutely. What the courts are, how the courts are treating these issues, differences in counties, a lot of situations the courts are starting offering a lot of remedies for clients right now and they're sort of forced into situations having to be more flexible and work with their spouses and the best interests of the kids.
Yeah, and that's not always so easy to do. I mean, I think it's really interesting in New York, at least our courts are so close for new actions and they were just close tight for a few weeks there and they're very still very limited access and there's no real guidance as to how to deal with these issues. You know, in terms of how to think about the dangers of the COVID virus versus the importance of maintaining a good parenting plan, how are you advising your clients to sort of think about those challenges? Well, I think I'm advising them to, I think, sort of try to love their kids more than mitigate their ex-fouced to put a fine point on it and prioritize their needs over those if they're wrong.
If they're maybe an idea of the situation where we have a couple that lives in two different states, one state less locked down and less problematic from a COVID-19 standpoint and the other may live in San York or New York City. And trying to find ways of minimizing travel, minimizing the exchanges during COVID-19, trying to minimize the children's exposure during COVID-19 might mean that they have to make some adjustments to their parenting schedule that they weren't previously considering. You know, one thing Cameron Goodman that I find is that the COVID situation often just exacerbates an underlying issue that's already there. And what I'm thinking about is when there's a lack of trust in one parent, doesn't think that the other parent taking out enough caution, doesn't feed the children right, doesn't trust them appropriately, and now all of a sudden you have an issue where that same issue shows up and the more careful, cautious, critical parent thinks the other one is too loosey goosey with COVID protections.
And it's very hard to know since we don't really know, right? What it is that we should advise people to deal? What's inappropriate? Like what seems like an appropriate level of, I don't know, free flow, but in each parent getting their own parenting style and that's being fine might not be appropriate.
And what seems overly controlling might be totally appropriate under these circumstances. What do you think about that? I think it's a big problem. I think it's almost a kind of a dichotomy of the viewpoints that people have on this crisis.
You know, some people who are flying. It's a variety and how people look at this and what they think of it, whether that's for political reasons or whatever the reason might be. It really creates a situation where the courts are kind of stuck with following what the particular states or provides for. And what I'm finding is that in order to get emergency relief for a scenario similar to a sort of what you're describing there, they're requiring that the child have a preexisting medical condition that might make a child more susceptible to contracting COVID or when they get more severe, like asthma.
It's difficult to get a lot of relief from the courts now. They don't know anyway. So what releases you're saying that so for a parent who wants to restrict the exchange of the children or restricts in some ways what has been a previously agreed on or ordered custody schedule that the only relief that your Illinois courts are seeing or giving is if the child became herself is at risk for very severe case of the coronavirus. Is that what you're saying?
Yes. I think that's right. Like one example might be say we've got a healthcare professional is for one parent, which is certainly a scenario that has come up a number of times in the media. And the other parent is not and they're going to be in that the healthcare worker parent is not self-quarantining or finding a way to sort of wall themselves off in the family, which many of them are doing.
The other parent doesn't have a lot of remedy with respect to that. And what do you think? Imagine that you have one parent who's on the front lines an essential worker or healthcare worker or something. And the person says, you know what, I'm going to separate myself from the children for this period of time and limit my time with them or just not see them at all in person.
And do you think that that would have a negative impact on a post-pandemic parenting plan or positive one? I know it's not an easy question. No, it's not. I think that the parent who self-quarantined the healthcare worker parent is self-quarantined is I think it's going to be do favorably after this is over.
I think parents who are taking advantage of the situation mean the fact that there isn't a lot of relief available from the court system at the moment. I think that's going to be used against that later on. I think so too. But it's really interesting because we often tell our clients, make sure you see those gets, make sure that you're an involved parent, particularly if they're about to be involved in or in the middle of a custody trial or litigation like that.
And here we might be saying, you know what, it actually might be prudent and show your best parenting to not do that given certain circumstances. Do you think that's true? I never would agree. I think it shows good parental judgment.
The parent is putting their needs and interests, and the child's needs and interests about the role. And I think that's the definition of the parenting, at least part of it. Yeah. So I do think Cameron Goodman that in your experience of working with your clients, do you think that it makes a difference, the parent's ability to work together during this pandemic or really any kind of crisis is impacted by the process they're in?
I mean, if they're a mediation client or a collaborative divorce client versus a litigation client, do you see a difference there? Absolutely. I mean, the people that elect to choose the collaborative process are almost by definition working well together, at least working well enough together to make through this and have a coordinated mirrored ground rules for both households. Parents that are involved in high-continent litigation, you know, there's usually a big difference between how they're approaching this, which is leading to problems.
They're not ready for the case. I'm Catherine Miller. You're listening to Divorce Dialogues. We're here on WVOX1460AM in Westchester, New York, every other Wednesday from 5 to 530, and we're also available as a podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, and wherever you listen to your podcast.
I'm talking today with Cameron Goodman. He's an attorney based in Chicago, and we're talking about the impact on parenting plans and travel and all those things because of the COVID pandemic. And Cameron Goodman took a little bit about why you think it is that you said that parents who are in the collaborative process almost by definition work better together. Talk a little bit about what that is and why.
Well, I mean, in order to be part of the collaborative process, we're involved in the collaborative process, and we're speaking, we screen out people who are high-conflict or, you know, are just surfers in the abuse issue or, you know, those are more difficult cases to do collaboratively. Not possible, just more difficult. And, you know, for people that are good parents, they're just not good spouses, and they both understand that, and they both want to do the best that they possibly can for their kids are doing much better situations than say people who are involved in a scorched or high-conflict divorce, where they can't even talk to each other much less and try to come up with a mirrored ground rules for both homes. Do you think everybody that is in the litigation process is in a scorched-earth type approach?
No, not everybody. I think that, you know, for folks that are doing uncontested divorces or even moderately, you know, litigated divorces, they might be litigating about financial issues and we're completely on turnages, certainly because everybody, but, you know, on the continuum of conflicts going all the way to, you know, scorched-earth, high-conflict, where they can't even talk to each other and, you know, they're really not putting the needs of their children above the room. You know, I know that we use that expression of scorched-ears in the match of money a lot of professional all the time, but I'm thinking that maybe our listeners don't know what that is. Can you just define what it is you're talking about when you say scorched-earth?
Yeah, sure. Most of the issues in litigation are in dispute. The parties are genuinely showing, you know, a high-degree background towards each other, and litigating about everything, even if they can't afford it. And in large part, to some degree, you kind of ought to really hurt the other party.
At least that's my interpretation, scorched-earth. Yeah, mine too. Would it rather use up all of their assets, fighting the fight, than trying to preserve them for their kids and for their future? Right.
They'd rather not as work as a homestead. So, is there anything else about the collaborative process other than the self-selection of people who work well together that can help support people to actually work better together than they otherwise would and move them in a more cooperative direction as parents? Absolutely. The collaborative process, as you know, is a non-adversarial, multidisciplinary approach, and one element of that is the inclusion of coaches.
And usually a psychologist, sorry, a psychologist or LCSW, that comes in and sort of helps the parties come to an agreement. There might be two coaches, one for each party, or there might be one joint coach. It sort of helps them talk through the areas that they're having trouble and make a consensus on. So that the coach would be able to help the parents sort of work through really what's not a legal issue, but an emotional issue of narrating and come to a way of working together that's different than what they might have come to on their own?
Correct. And as you point out, it's not a really legal issue, and it does make more sense to have other professionals that have expertise in that relevant background to become involved. Having lawyers negotiate that is not always the best situation. I would say it's never the best situation.
And not because lawyers are bad people or bad negotiators, I think, as a general rule, people who went to law school to help people, despite what the general public might think about us. But I think just the structure of one person saying, well, you know, you tell that person, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, well, you know, the other person, you know, the lawyers just aren't in a position to be able to really settle it and to have sort of substantive conversations that are about what it is that the feelings are and kind of work it through. They're just kind of floating in the parents feeling kind of just get frozen in the conversation with a lawyer, and the lawyer doesn't have any real power to negotiate the parenting. And so it doesn't make sense that the people who are not the actual parents of the children who don't love the children are negotiating for the safety of these dependents.
I think it just, you know, makes much more sense to have the people who really do care in the room talking in a way that allows them both to express themselves and be heard maybe in a different way than they were heard in a marriage or in a relationship period. No question. I think that, yeah, I agree. And in addition to that, I would say that that sort of dovetails into the notion that collaborative is not a zero sum game, whereas in litigation is a zero sum game.
But anybody that is, that during litigation, we're expecting to be dividing up the pie, you know, the, the, the marital estate in a way that doesn't leave room for coming to solutions that might actually increase the options that are available to the parties for subtle. Makes it collaborative. It's really very effective at coming up with solutions that both parties can accept and adding to things rather than making it really just a power graph, which is kind of litigation is. Yeah.
You know what I really love about it, Cameron Goodman, is that it gives us the opportunity to really be creative and in that creativity. And I think this is what you're talking about. We can create value for the parties in a way that they might not have seen before. So where it seems like, you know, we have to do it this way because there's no other options.
So we really, really can talk about what each person can bring and how they can, they and the children can benefit the situation in a way that allows for a different view of the problem. And when we look at the problem in a different way, then the opportunity for solutions just is so much broader. And it seems so much less locked down, it's so much less lack and light than it would have, you know, then it sometimes feels to the parties just walking in. And I, I think you're more, I think you're more creative ideas when you have clever teeth, you know, there are more people involved, they're coming from different professional backgrounds and they're adding a lot to, to make that happen.
I'm Catherine Miller, you're listening to divorce dialogues. We're here on WVX1460am, alternate Wednesday at 5.30. So perhaps you're listening on the podcast available on divorce dialogues.com, as well as iTunes, and put out another podcast app. And I'm talking today with Cameron Goodman about the COVID pandemic and parenting and the opportunities to work in models outside of the court system and collaborative law and mediation.
And Cameron Goodman, if someone is interested in learning more about you, how could they get in touch? My website is goodmandivorce.com. And my office number is 630-474-6700. Good.
So let's talk about some COVID-19 co-parenting do's and don'ts. What are some things that you think parents should do during this pandemic? Well, I think for starters, they should plan ahead. They should review the allocation judgment.
I'm not sure what it's called in New York, the parent plan. You know, it's going to be the traveling. Make sure that the church is approved by the other party. They can agree with us.
I think they should be bringing their court orders with them so that there's really no dispute. And I think that as they always would normally make the child available to the other parent by phone, FaceTime. And I think that it's important to follow the jurisdictions order on COVID-19 and make sure that they've got the necessary PPE, particularly if they're going to take a chance and travel by air. I think those are some of the things to start with.
Again, it's just a circle back to the beginning of the show. It's sometimes hard to know. And it can feel like and seem like and actually be that the parenting plan, the court order, parenting plan is contrary to the executive order, the governor's order. I mean, in New York, we're under some very strict still under some very strict lockdown situations.
And it's going to be hard to know what to do. So if somebody doesn't know what to do, what are some resources they have for that? If they don't know what to do, I think they could, of course, speak to an attorney and determine, you know, I think they can read the states' order on it and try to reach an agreement with the other parent deflexible. I think that, you know, with deflexibility, you might see that we're limiting travel exchanges, as much as possible, which might mean that the parent that is, say, out of state from the primary parent might end up with more time in the summer to make up for maybe some lost parenting time right now.
I think that's going to be something that makes sense to me. What are some things Cameron Goodman and that people should not do during this time? I think that in general, parents should avoid traveling by air. They're just really too risky for, I think, just to fly along.
If they're going to travel by air, I think they're going to need to be with the parents to make sure that they're following the social distancing rules and wearing a mask. I think that parents should not insist on more transfers. They should not insist on, you know, parent, if the other parent says, I don't think it's safe, you know, for the travel travel. Maybe we need to be more flexible about that and not insist on that during time.
What we've been doing is suggesting to people who can't agree with their ex-bouts or they're not married co-partner, that mediation can be a good way to help people resolve conflict when they do not, that they can't come to an understanding and there's no access to courts. What do you think about that? I think it's a great idea. I think that that can be done virtually, obviously.
So I think that that is an actuality. I think a parenting coordinator is also a good option that can also be done virtually. A parenting coordinator is somebody that stays often, depending on their appointment, they stay involved in the case after or during it and after it's over to make sure that the parties facilitate communication between the parties and parentic issues and really to try to keep the lawyers less involved and the parties focus more on reaching solutions that are in the definition of the case. And the parenting coordinator often does do a lot of mediation between the people and sort of with a little M, but trying to figure out where each person thinks is important and gives them kind of like reality checks, so what's possible and how to figure out various options, is that right?
Yes, that's absolutely right. Normally I see them doing shuttle mediation where the people parties together, they meet with each party individually and then they bring it together and whether meeting with the separate lady doing the reality testing we're talking about, what that means is to say a parent has a position that's a little bit unreasonable, the reality testing would be to ask them questions to help them sort of arrive at a different answer that might be more appropriate on the realm about really making them feel pressured that being bullied into it or anything like that. So after the show meeting with the parties, the media meeting with the parties separately then bringing them together and see if they've successfully been able to mediate that and that can all be done in virtual video platforms. Yeah, so Cameron, it sounds like you have, I really appreciate your perspective on divorce and match money line.
It does sound very similar to my own. What was it that led you to the collaborative process and to really encouraging people to think about alternative ways to resolve disputes? It's effective. It's what people want.
I think people started before I became a fellow, I part of the motivation was there was just a lot of demand for it. It's going to be a change in a favorable, a change in dynamic in the legal marketplace that I think is going to be useful at more than it is not. That's why I say a lot of demand for it. Why do you think that people are looking for or looking to avoid in order to try to find their own resolutions without?
I think they're looking to avoid the loss of control that comes with litigation. They would rather, they may not appreciate what, you know, may not be able to articulate this way but they would much prefer to have control over their outcome or have the person in the black robe who barely knows them making a decision about the family that could affect the rest of their lives. I think that's one of the bigger selling points. Yeah.
And we say selling points, I think, but you mean it's a traction. It's that I think people yearn to find a way to resolve it themselves based on what's most important to them and they just don't know how to do that. That it feels by the time they decide to divorce, like they're so stuck in a conflict that it might be impossible or they want someone to finally tell that person, you know, you are so wrong, you know, or something like that and yet they know that that's not really very likely. And so they just worry that they're not going to be able to get unstuck.
Yeah. And I think people get, you know, usually, I mean, divorces processing of divorce is really processing grief, that's a difference, right? And I think people are at different places along the grief continuum. Usually the person instigating of divorce is reasonably far long yet the other party one may not want it and even if they're okay with it, it hasn't had enough time necessarily to process it because they're not initiated.
Yeah. I think that that's right. That getting that people in the same place in the same time is really hard and maybe impossible to do so trying to find a way where the people can work together even though they're in different places is really important. And I think that the parent and coordinators or divorce coaches are great at facilitating that.
Yeah. Well, Cameron Goodman, thank you so much for being, I guess, on the divorce dialogue. It's been a pleasure. And stay safe.
My pleasure. You as well. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you.