Daredevil Born Again 205 Review

This is the Defenders Podcast on TV Podcast Industries. We're back with Daredevil Bored Again, Season 2, Episode 5, The Grand Design. Whoever he was working with, they're going to kill him when he's inside. Yeah, that might be the definition of consequences.

But does the punishment fit the crime? Crime is past, present, or future. So you think we should ignore it? Ignore what?

It's our job to represent our clients to the best of our abilities. Suppressing evidence. Objection. Suppressing is questionable.

One might even say inflammatory phrasing in this particular instance, counselor. Aren't you supposed to be the Catholic one here? Oh, come on. All right, so fine.

You want to go with guilt now. How about mercy? There's got to be something about that in the Bible. Second chances.

Redemption. All I know is if he goes to jail, he dies. and all i know is that might not be our problem unfortunately it is now Welcome back fellow defenders to Daredevil Born Again Season 2 Episode 5 on TV Podcast Industries. I am one of your hosts Derek.

hello there fellow defenders i am your other host john welcome back to our coverage of daredevil born again season two absolutely we don't mention it often enough about our theme tune john that the theme tune that we're using for our daredevil coverage we've had for 11 years and it was written by our awesome mate ali mac yeah absolutely otherwise known as mississippi MacDonald. Yep, and otherwise known as multi-UK blues award-winning artist, Mississippi Mac. So go out and check out Olly MacDonald's stuff. If you like the blues, he has some great music and he's touring at the moment.

Go check him out. Tell him that TV Podcast Industry sent you and John sent you specifically because he knows us very, very well. Yes. I used to go to university with him.

You sure? I used to go to university with him when you were in Manchester. I certainly did, yes. All good.

So definitely fellow defenders, a little recommendation from us Not too often that we put them out there but certainly not around music But if you like the blues maybe it someone to check out Well we really should be saying it often because it was very good of him to do the awesome tune that he did. And now he's in the UK Blues Hall of Fame as of this year, which is pretty awesome. That is pretty cool. Yeah.

Our award-winning theme tune provider, Olly MacDonald. Love it. If you haven't subscribed to the podcast, make sure you pop on over to our website at tvpodcastindustries.com or over at defenders tvpodcast.com where all of our marvel coverage sits and you can subscribe to the podcast there for any of the shows that we're covering we do want to hear your thoughts on all the shows as we're going through them you can email us to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com of course or pop on over to our facebook group at facebook.com slash groups slash tvpodcastindustries and you can also join us on our discord where we're getting lots and lots of feedback over there on each of the episodes that we cover The details of which are in the show notes right here as well. Speaking of feedback, since we recorded it early last week and we're recording a bit later this week, we have feedback on episode four and episode five, John.

So I'm going to kick off with our feedback on episode four first, go into our coverage of episode five and then talk about the feedback on episode five. How does that work? Excellent stuff. Brilliant.

Well, we're going to kick off with some voicemail feedback from Harrison Fox. Hello, fellow defenders. Harrison Fox here. First time calling in.

I just wanted to say that this last episode of Daredevil, Born Again Season 2, Episode 4, was phenomenal from beginning to end. I don't think I've been on the edge of my seat for a TV show as much as I was those last few minutes during the Fisk fight. And then when you see that shard of glass in Vanessa's head, it's like, oh, my God. Just wanted to call in, say you guys do a fantastic job.

I just recently discovered you and I have flown through a lot of your back catalog. I just want to throw a theory out. I think that B.B. is going to meet her end at the hands of Daniel as a parallel to how Ben met his fate at the hands of Wilson.

Just throwing that out there. I don't know. I feel like anything can happen on this show. but you know just wanted to throw that out there say you guys are doing an awesome job I love listening to you and yeah thanks so much for all the content Thanks so much to you Harrison it great to hear from you Yeah great stuff Harrison Loving the first name as it coincides with my surname Yes So yeah great stuff And I love that theory because I have thought about that myself.

I've not articulated it because I kind of don't want to believe that another Ulrich will meet a sort of a nasty end. And I think you're right in terms of who will do it. and that that will mirror Fisk and Ben Oreck. But I just wonder whether Karen might just get there in the nick of time this time.

That would be quite cool, actually. But alas, yes, I've had those same kind of troubling thoughts, I guess, in terms of that theory. So, yeah, really good. All I could think of when I was listening to your voicemail, Harrison, was, oh, I can't wait to hear what Harrison has to say about Episode 5, because if you're on the edge of your seat, you're in Episode 4.

there's stuff going on in episode five specifically around daniel which we'll talk about later on that i was absolutely i don't know whether is it any further than the edge of your seat i was on the floor watching it and so thanks so much for your feedback i know we have another voicemail in from you for episode five which i'm really looking forward to hearing as well yeah um great stuff yeah thanks harrison also on episode four uh by email coffee and vodka says greetings fellow pugilistic defenders. There's so many ballast characters, they did not just fridge Vanessa. Though, without her presence, the Governor has no vested interest to allow Red Hook's charter to exist. Not a great trade-off, but there it is.

To start the show with visceral violence to the musical strings of Billy Joel on the day of The Boys Season 5 premiere, design or serendipity? Either way, happy to see everyone's favourite sharpshooter. As well, it looks like we've got one unhappy Agent Shaggy, a suddenly disenchanted ringside populace at the petulant brutality of Wilson Fisk. Strong as his position is, you can see the banana peels mounting, as this and some of the best action of the season spread throughout this blown powder keg of an episode.

The only glaring thing was Matt and Karen not having seen that end of their star witness coming a mile off. Beyond this all aces Five great shakes disguised devils and a book shot out of five Peace and take care Coffee and vodka Thanks so much coffee and vodka for the feedback Yes I think certainly their star witness should have been a little better protected and but equally you would say that having marshals come and collect him that he was relatively protected and it's two federal marshals for somebody that would be involved in taking down the mayor of new york like the mayor new york is a massive position you'd imagine that there would be a whole squadron of people that would come yeah not just two people not just two guys, you know. And, you know, in my head, originally when we watched the episode, I was going, how do they know for definite these are two marshals? Did they just, you know, hand over just some fake IDs and take them away, and then they were going to hand them over to Buck on the other end?

I actually wasn't expecting the two of them were going to get shot, and then he was going to get shot. I wasn't expecting that was the way it was going to play out. But yes, they absolutely should have seen it. But I do think that they gave his testimony through Kirsten McDuffie, So they have that recorded at least.

So while they have gotten to the witness and have taken him out, it feels like at least they have some backup of what he said and may make it even more of a loaded gun now that he's dead. Yeah, absolutely. Or disappeared. I think, yeah, they at least got his kind of statement on record with a lawyer.

And I guess the marshals were organized through Kirsten's legal office, so they knew that kind of procedure, certainly for a very sensitive witness dealing with a fairly prominent potential case. So, yeah, it's just, you think, maybe vans, more vans and even more marshals. Well, yeah, yeah. Whole SWAT team should have helped.

Great stuff. Thanks so much for your email. of course, Caffeine Vodka. We also have a voicemail in from Steve Brown on episode 4.

Hello, TV Podcast Industries. This is Steve and this is for Daredevil Born Again Season 2, episode 4. Yeah, Gloves Off. Wow, what a great episode.

I podcasted with it, or I talked about it with my podcast partner, Mark, on Saturday, and gosh, such a great episode. That beginning with Bullseye, just incredible, that whole scene. And Mark had to clarify for me. And as you guys talked about in the podcast that, yeah, diners in New York do have lobster in live lobsters in there.

It just blew my mind. I didn't think that was was a thing. in like just, you know, hole in the wall kind of diner kind of place. But I guess in New York, that's where it is.

But anyway, total surprise with what happened at the end with Vanessa. Don't know what the result of that is going to be. We'll see. You know, it looked pretty bad to me, but anything can happen in the Marvel universe.

So we'll see next week or this week, I guess, now that I'm recording this, what her fate is going to be and how we move forward in this back half of this season. I'm excited. I hope we get Jessica Jones soon. I'm a little disappointed that we haven't seen her yet.

They've just barely mentioned her, but can't wait to hear you guys talk about the next episode and just continue watching with y'all. All right. Talk to you later. Thanks so much, Steve.

Yeah, really want to see Jessica pop on up as well. That great little bit of sort of the theme tune for her would be awesome. Equally, totally with you, yes, lobsters in a diner. I think that's why I was kind of like, was it a diner or a high-end restaurant?

But at the end of the day, the deadliest catch has to go somewhere. Absolutely. I'll give a shout out to another podcast. Fantastic Geek to cover the show.

We were based in New York. They're actually based quite close to where some of the show was filmed. And they actually searched up the restaurant here, the Bel Air diner that's used in this scene. It is an actual diner that exists in New York.

Now, it's not exactly the same. They obviously did some set dressing on it as well, of course, as well as covering the place in blood. They don't serve lobster. That is a fiction.

But they have got on their menu, they are world famous for their milkshakes. So they incorporated that into the show, which I think is kind of fun. Yeah, that's cool. Well done for Fantastic Geek for doing the search that I wasn't going to do.

The hard yards on that one. Exactly. Great stuff. Thanks so much, Steve, for your thoughts.

Yeah, thanks, Steve. I have been listening to your podcast, Palance to Pixels, as well, about Daredevil. I know you guys are enjoying it as much as we are, as well. So thanks so much for taking the time out to email us.

Yeah. Thanks, Steve. We also got some feedback in on Discord from Dr. Bob Phillips, who had some thoughts on Episode 4.

He says, full of twists I did not expect. Book the Destroyer. Dare your welcome, Devil. BB agreeing to be at the boxing the exit of swordsman without a small tiger or a bounding bourbon hero to replace him What looks like an intercranial foreign object at Mrs Fisk temple and the persistence of ketchup art Wouldn't you have expected more drip when Matt went to investigate the scene?

Great stuff, Dr. Bob. Yeah, the bullseye that he drew in ketchup. I guess he probably used some Heinz ketchup then because that's the one that's known for not dripping, isn't it?

That's difficult to get out of the bottle. It's so difficult that they moved it from glass to a plastic bottle to allow you to squeeze it out. and even then you can't get the end stuff out exactly so that's good ketchup he's using not just diner ketchup but still you would expect it to drip a saggy bullseye should be the end of that I don't know whether that would have looked good on screen though great stuff though thanks so much Dr. Bob yeah a lot's happened in this episode yeah absolutely thanks Dr.

Bob also over on Discord Ken Log says Fisk is surely going to be completely unhinged now. No one is holding him back. I think this season is going to get proper dark before the finale. Also over on Discord, Joe Herbst has a question.

Why did Bullseye put on a mask when the fight in the diner starts and then take it off? What was the point of the mask when everyone saw him before and after? Bullseye killing the Taskmaster stealthily like he did in the hospital last episode makes sense. Why would he summon a bunch with their guns drawn amid lots of civilians and how do random objects penetrate their body armour?

He seemed to be living a double life. Nice, quiet, clean-cut guy, good with the neighbours while stealthily taking out the task force. So why would he reveal who he really is in front of a bunch of witnesses? Thanks so much, Ken Log and Joe.

Firstly, Ken Log, yeah, I think you're right. I think it will get proper dark. It feels like that, to be honest. And certainly with this upcoming episode, episode 5, I think we can see even more.

I felt sort of afraid of what's to come, ultimately. Absolutely. And I think you get the impending of that even in episode 4, so yeah, totally agree there. And yeah, I guess Joe, with the different mask and all that, I guess he just comes in as a random punter.

Because I think if he comes in with a mask in that diner he just going to do it there and then But I guess it just a scene I had a bit of a chat with Joe about this on Discord as well because it an interesting point I don't think you see enough in the episode to understand exactly where Bullseye's head's at. Now that we've seen episode five, there's a bit more of understanding about what Bullseye's doing here. I don't think he really cares at all whether people identify him or not. He's wearing the outfit when he's taking out the task force.

He called in that it was Punisher there, so they were expecting to have a guns-on fight with the Punisher when they arrived. He was there to get the idea out there that there is another masked vigilante in the city protecting the people from the ABTF. Whether they know who he is or not, they probably will know pretty well because he's the most experienced, targeted person in the entire city of New York. So Wilson Fist knows exactly who this guy is, even whether he wears a mask or not.

So I don't think that was the point. I did mention to him about the double life as soon as Daredevil arrives in his apartment he takes his landlady or his neighbour hostage he doesn't care about it at all he takes her hostage he doesn't really care about that double life it's good for him as cover while he plans his move but his move was the diner that was what he was trying to do so he's done everything he wanted to accomplish he wasn't trying to live out this perfect life for the rest of his time he was using that as a cover to make his plan I think. And then now that it's all shut up, he doesn't really care. Who knows, basically.

But yes, he made that decision to take off, to put on his mask before he fought the ABTF and then take it off to witnesses so they know that he's there, you know. So yeah, it's an interesting one. I do think there's more in episode five, though, that we'll discuss. Definitely, definitely.

Thanks so much for that feedback over on Discord. Absolutely. Over on Facebook, our final pieces of feedback. First one comes in from Daphne Backman, who says, I am absolutely loving this season so far.

The action and tension have been fantastic. Fantastic. I also appreciate moments of hope with those fighting back against the Fisk regime. Also, when Vanessa came in in the white dress, I had a feeling it was going to turn red.

Viva la revolution. Excellent stuff, Daphne. Yeah, it was you could see the the actual despair on Fisk, realizing that Vanessa had walked into, in a sense, this killing field that had been devised in fact by Fisk in order to trap both Daredevil and Bullseye and his wife effectively gets caught in the crossfire exactly exactly great stuff great to hear from you as well definitely Thanks so much for your thoughts Mathematician sent in his thoughts on the episode He says Who doesn love a bit of Billy Joel You've got to respect the confidence of Bullseye, knowing he can take out a number of armed task force guys with some cockery. Great opening.

Unfortunately, Jack channeling his inner Roger Murtill by claiming he's getting too old for this stuff was a blow to the vigilantes as he showed his value in episode three. His fighting style is a joy to behold. full of flamboyance. Matthew Lillard is back.

Woohoo! Charles appears to be one of the few people who can talk to Fisk how he pleases, knowing he isn't a subordinate. Buck? Is he bullet in the comics?

Makes him think again by taking out his muscle in the blink of an eye. Is he afraid of Fisk or is he worried about failing Val? Maybe you boys can help me out here. How did Matt figure out where Bullseye would be hiding out based on the descriptions of the priest?

I get it was near the church but no idea how he nailed it to be the exact flat point Dexter was hiding out in. Thrilling action in the following fight though. Did Blake spot Angela's friend slipping the SD card into BB's pocket and does he now suspect her as the leak using him as her source? I love how he paid full price for the souvenir and then got annoyed in himself when he found out he could have saved some money.

That kid defo has his dad's acting chops. It takes around two seconds for Fisk's opponent to find out how brutal he is and then wow what an ending did fisk kill vanessa trying to save himself from blake's souvenir that bullseye aimed at him this scene is exactly what gives me the only issue with matt he is always trying to save fisk's life from bullseye or vice versa and other people keep dying because of it how does he square doing what he feels is morally correct when it is costing other multiple people their lives does matt not realize that numerous lives will be saved overall if the kingpin is dead vanessa dressed in white with blood dripping on it oh anybody remember rabbit in a stowstorm a fixed favorite piece of art great episode 4.5 out of 5 is my score for the new york banana milkshake with whipped cream who doesn't but 5 out of 5 for this the best episode of the season so far thrilling mathematician great stuff uh mathematician um yet i do like uh your reference to uh murtagh I always loved him sort of channeling his I'm about to retire stop doing crazy stuff with Martin Riggs because well he's about to retire so yeah I like the reference there absolutely yeah Also one of those poster boys from the 80s of people looking way older than they actually are. So he was supposed to be in retirement mode there. And I think he was 48 when he played that role.

Younger than me, John. Younger than me. Younger than me? Just, just, just.

Yes. So there's a couple of things from the episode. How did Matt figure out where the bulldog would be hiding based on the description of the priest? Well, we do see him cock his ears to the surroundings.

We know Matt has a super ability. And in the Marvel show, he does have a bigger superpower than we've seen before. We were commenting on the podcast last time that he basically hears from across the road some indications that Poindexter's apartment is across the way. He hears some noises and is able to identify it from that.

I think we just have to go with it as a superpower. Playing darts, wasn't he? Yeah. He's like, oh, that's five bullseyes in a row.

So, therefore, that must be Poindexter's apartment. No, it is one of those ones that we just have to accept that Daredevil used his superpowers to find him. At least he was able to focus on the building from what the priest was saying. Did Blake spot Angela's friends slipping in the SD card?

We think he might have. Yeah, we feel he did, but we're not entirely sure. And it's not entirely clear. But with Daniel, it's basically he's kind of willing to let Bibi away with a couple of things.

He doesn't want to throw suspicion on her. if she gets caught releasing information in the future, he'll have to turn her in. He really doesn't want to do that. He's kind of fighting against himself, I think.

Yes, definitely torn loyalties here, at least for the time being. Absolutely. And you asked the clear question of the whole season, did Fisk kill Vanessa trying to save himself from Blake Sylvainere? I would say there's an argument for that.

If he hadn't blocked the glass from coming towards him with the belt, it wouldn't have broken, and wouldn't go into Vanessa's neck. Will we ever hear Wilson Fisk say, it was my fault that she died or that she was injured in this attack? Absolutely not. He's going to blame Bullseye.

He's going to blame Daredevil for being in the building. He's going to blame whoever he needs to around himself, the doctors involved. He's going to blame everybody, but he absolutely will never blame himself for what happened there. Even though, as John said earlier on, this was his whole setup to draw Bullseye and Daredevil 8.

if he hadn set it up himself Even that in itself would have caused her death Absolutely But I mean look if you go further back he told Vanessa not to come He told Vanessa go to Albany She decided to turn up. No, she went to Albany and did the job really quickly and came back. No, exactly. But she still went to go knowing that was the reason why she was being sent to Albany.

So she made the choice, ultimately. She did. But again, that's not the point at all. it is that Bullseye and Daredevil were there and it's a result of that so he's going to blame Bullseye and Daredevil for sure absolutely and the last question that Mathematician had on how does Daredevil Square doing what he's doing and still feel morally correct I think this episode, episode 5 which we'll be talking about is probably the answer to that this is what Daredevil will always do he will always choose to try and save people's lives while you can't save everybody is also something that he has to deal with um he will try even if it is wilson fisk even if it is poindexter he will try to save lives but he does i totally with mathematician he he does consistently save kingpin um and wilson aka wilson fisk um all the time um and sometimes it's like well you run with the crime lords you die by the crime lords that would be some people's attitude absolutely but it's not Matt Murdock's attitude no but it's interesting because we like and we'll get into it I guess in episode 5 because yes Matt is a little like banjaxed with his viewpoint and his morality on the basis of being I guess brought up in the Catholic Church but two you see the opposite side of this argument that you're saying now, mathematician, which, to be honest, it's just that he's had a really sort of complicated genesis as to why now he will save everyone, I guess.

Yeah, he'll try to do it. We'll talk about that much more in episode five. I suppose the big difference is someone like Book is out there to save Kingpin's life and make sure Kingpin doesn't die. Matt Murdock, when he's in a situation where the Kingpin could die because there's a bullet coming towards him his moral code says i should jump in the way of that bullet from killing anybody it happens to be fisk and for the drama of the tv show the writers put it in that it fisk more often than it probably should yeah i would say you know in real life Matt just will never allow someone to die in front of him if he can save them And it happens to be Fisk quite a lot because that's the story of the show, right?

There you go. That's my real explanation for it. But again, lots more of that moral code in this episode and episode five. Thanks so much for your feedback, mathematician.

Yeah, thanks so much, mathematician. That's it for our feedback on episode four. we'll have some more feedback on episode 5 later on in the podcast but I think it's time to get into our episode 5 discussion John Indeed it is. Derek who gave us what, where, when and how?

Well the episode was directed by Angela Barnes as she directed this week's episode and next week's episode of Daredevil Born Again and also directed the final half of Ironheart last year interestingly so that was a six episode series and she directed the final three episodes which was kind of cool Excellent stuff. Great season as well. I think we had a dinner lady called Mrs. Barnes.

Really? anyway and I think her first name was Angela so there we go she made it all the way to the directorship that's fantastic going from being a general lady to a writer on Marvel though? No it's just a name association it's not the same Angela Barnes probably not she'd probably be in her 80s at this stage if she was serving food to you back when you were in school the episode was written by Jessie Wicks she wrote two episodes of season one of Dead Overboard again and this is her first of three episodes this season. She has two more episodes to go this season as well.

Excellent stuff. Yeah, so a good voice in the writer's room in Daredevil Born Again. Yes. So, John, do you want to give us your synopsis for Daredevil Born Again, Season 2, Episode 5, The Grand Design?

Sure. And I do quite like Grand Designs on Channel 4 as well. But it's not the same. Again, word association.

Years prior, while working as interns at Landman and Zack, Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson are assigned a criminal case involving one of Nelson's childhood neighbours, Lionel Ray McCoy. The pair get McCoy released, and Foggy the Fembot gives him their future fund savings so he can make a fresh start. However, McCoy narrowly avoids a young book cashman who has been hired to kill him by Fisk's fixer at the time, James Wesley. Wesley also arranges for an art gallery to serve as one of Fisk's fronts, leading him to meet Vanessa.

In the present, Daredevil helps the wounded Dex escape from the AVTF Despite the lasses pleas to alone die Daredevil is inspired by the memory of Foggy selflessness and takes Bullseye to recover at the Punisher hideout where Karen Page is less than impressed After Daniel Blake leaks Vanessa's status to be the Uric, Cashman tests his loyalty by forcing him to drive them to Albany to bury Sava's body. Meanwhile, Vanessa wakes up after successful surgery, but seems to have suffered some kind of brain damage. shortly after her vitals fade, and she flatlines as doctors attempt to revive her while a devastated Fisk watches on. Eek!

I know, I know. Two episodes in a row. I have to think Vanessa is dead at the end of this episode, but it's not confirmed for death, Fisk. No, because you've still got all the medics and so on and nurses sort of trying to resuscitate her effectively.

Yeah. but it's very poignant it certainly is and I would say if I was a betting man that yes they won't do it another time she is dead but you are right it's not as such confirmed I guess it's like wait until episode 6 pan to graveyards and funeral but it certainly seems like that for sure well let's get into all of our case notes for this episode are going to kick off where we always do with case note number one order order time for the defense to present their evidence i wonder do people like those intros john i'm not sure whether i did the best i possibly could with that you could the evidence is irrefutable very good very good our first point let's go back to vanessa really quickly for this opening point vanessa under the knife and it's just because this episode kicks off so quickly after what we saw happened last week. We have Vanessa being brought into the Mercy Hospital, which is the one that we know from Daredevil before, where Night Nurse worked, Rosario Dawson's character worked, back in the original Netflix series. Should be an indication we're going to be flashing back to the Netflix series, isn't it?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And interestingly as well, I think it was a no-cold open, as they call it. So it was a straight into the credits first i guess like in the good old days and in that sense rather than having a part of the show up front and then the credits and so this was that in itself kind of brought an urgency into coming then into this um whole set of images of vanessa in a critical condition fisk freaking out uh making life actually very hard for the medics trying to deal with a critical vanessa um but it is for sure uh one of those things where it was just really nicely done with that no cold open to be honest yeah just where you see this massively strong and very influential person in the room still covered in the blub from uh from vanessa and from the fight she just got out of um telling everybody to fix his wife basically you're going what what can i possibly do in this situation i can't have him in the room with us while we're trying to stabilize her and i can't push him out of here in case he gets angry and kills me basically I'm sure everybody has seen how violent he is from the fight that was just done. But then it kind of pans around the hospital and we see what everybody else is doing.

Sheila's able to finally get Fisk out of the way and tell him you have to let them do their work. We have Daniel Fielding calls from all of the press outside and he's freaking out. You can tell he's absolutely freaked out about what's happening and doesn't want to leak any information himself that could get him implicated because of what previously happened with Wilson, you know, and the threat that he saw. So he doesn't even want to tell people that she's in hospital or what hospital she's in or what condition she's in.

And then he gets a text from Bibi, who was in the hospital with him looking for information. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think there's a couple of things here in this moment, as you say. one is you have Daniel on media duties and then having to deal with Bibi and it's kind of in a sense in the end I don't think he appreciates Bibi's arrival I mean there is a hug at the end because she's kind of saying well you know I want to get the story straight and he's kind of like are we doing this now it's interesting the kind of dynamic here and part of it is suggestive to me that he does know that she's leaking stuff because she's the official like reporter like she was brought in on the payroll to do the bb report exactly she saying i she says i want to get the story straight i mean to be honest as well in the modern era at least everyone knows she in hospital It's about whether is she alive or is she dead?

And at the moment you say she's alive. I felt the overreaction from Daniel is a result of his suspicion of her rather than what she was asking was anything that wouldn't be being asked by every reporter. and in particular she has the right to be there because she's on the media team effectively of Fisk's office yeah I think part of it is just why is she asking the questions to Daniel because she knows the answers to all of them you know he can't he can't give it they can't confirm it and I think Daniel again overreacts even further when he sees the tv and reporters are starting to turn up to that hospital Bibi told him there's only a couple of hospitals in New York this is the closest it's very likely she was going to be here anyway so everybody would turn up but Daniel is blaming her and i think even some a question that we had in the feedback is does daniel suspect bb it's not that he suspects her he knows like he the warning that he had was was a pointed warning just so the words came out from saying if you're leaking anything stop leaking stuff because we both could be killed yeah but he knows because what what was shown the footage that was shown was only on his laptop and the only person that could have had access to that was bb so he absolutely does know he wants to avoid a horrible life by turning in his friend that he brought into the situation over to fisk her potentially being killed and him being responsible for it he's trying to have an easy life by kind of ignoring that and putting his fingers in his ears and the more she confronts him and the more that she gives him reason to believe that he is the leak within the mayor's office the worse it's getting for him right yeah no absolutely and so that's an interesting kind of dynamic especially given what happens uh later in this episode i think the other side of it for me as well is here a bit like to uh ken log's feedback there around episode four it's going to get dark this is where um you know vanessa is in critical she's gone off to have her surgery and you have officer powell coming in to see wilson fisk about you know the manhunt for daredevil and bullseye and he's like if you have them keep them alive and and you know powell says no one wants to get them more than me and he says you can want them more than me because of what happened to vanessa as powell heads off he says officer powell alive like he wants them alive because he is going to be the one that um makes them very very dead when he gets his hands on them so like this is the ominous nature of Wilson Fisk. In his mind, it is pure black and white.

They are to blame. Not him, not even his wife, Vanessa. It is Bullseye and Daredevil by association being there. So, yeah, this is very ominous for both Matt Murdock and old Poindexter.

Absolutely. I do wonder if something that will happen in the future is Powell doesn't go by what Fisk wishes for and he ends off dead at Fisk's hands. It feels like of all of the people that we've seen working for Fisk in the past, Powell seems to be the one that will overstep the boundaries that are being set for him and laid out very clearly by Fisk. it feels like he's going to pull the trigger on someone that Fisk doesn't want dead, and he will be dead for it.

Yeah. So I just wonder if that's going to happen, because Fisk having to stress twice, I want them alive to Powell, feels like a foreshadowing that Powell will do something that Fisk doesn't like in the future. I don't know. There's something about Powell that I want somebody to kill him, and I would be really intrigued to see if it was Fisk that takes it out for doing something wrong.

yeah it'll be interesting now for sure that is our first case note let's move on to our second case note oh guess who's back the avocados at law they certainly are are creamy guacamole style avocados at law yes one half of them foggy nelson and matt murdoch um yeah i really enjoyed these flashbacks and i liked and not only just the one with um with foggy and matt but equally uh the one that has vanessa in here as well it really took me back to the marvel netflix shows i really did marry these two shows together um i mean yeah it was really good to see the two of them sort of doing the hard graft here it was you know the the first case that we see uh them do which is one set up for them by Wilson Fisk absolutely fantastic doer in terms of Wesley Yay! I was so happy to see Wesley. I can't believe it when Karen killed him. I was devastated.

I really, really enjoyed James Wesley. And I was so pleased to see Wesley back here advising Fisk. So it was really good. Yeah, absolutely.

He was just such a favorite character. I know he was a weasel as well, and I know what he did to Karen. And I think actually Harrison Fox, I know you've been re-listening to some of our podcasts. You can correct me if I'm wrong.

There is a point that we got to on Defenders TV podcast that Chris and John specifically were not liking Karen Page anymore as a character. And I think that stems from her being the one that killed Wesley. I think from then on, it was like, oh, I'm not really too sure whether Karen should really be in the episodes anymore. And I think it was because they killed Wesley.

But the minute I heard his voice specifically, I remember he was part of our opening intro. So I used to hear it every single week when I was editing the podcast and putting in our intro. His line about Captain America, the guy with the shield and the guy with green skin. And, you know, his line from that original trailer for Daredevil played for me for about a year in our podcast.

So great to hear his voice. It was so good. Like he has that one line that he says to Fisk, we have a problem with the lion. You know, I'll get someone who will deal with it.

That lion being Lionel Ray McCoy, who is the client of Matt and Foggy. I just like that kind of code. And you see, you know, he's he's ex army, he's ex military and has all that lingo around, you know, saying what he needs to say, but it not being obvious in case they're being listened to. So, yeah, it was very cool to have Wesley back.

Absolutely. I don't know. We'll talk more about him. I did squeal with joy.

Absolutely. You know, I've got to say it here. I was talking to our other co-host, Chris, who's been watching more of the trailers than of the episodes. And the marketing team for Dado Born Again, I think, just needs to be replaced.

They have spoiled so many of the reveals that were coming up this season. I heard Darius Garrapane being interviewed. saying that he couldn't stop them from releasing the diner fight scene from Bullseye. They were trying to release that back in October last year when they went to New York Comic Con.

He was saying, can you just save something for the show when we release it? And I think when that episode aired, they put that out about 20 minutes after the episode aired on YouTube so everybody could watch that fight scene. It's a fantastic scene, but give people time to watch it in context of the episodes. That's the excitement of someone that watches the show every week, right?

but we were watching these episodes as screeners when we got them so we were completely blown away by how much was in this episode of Foggy Nelson, how much was in the episode of bringing back Wesley side by side with Kingpin how much it was tying into the original Netflix series and a lot of this stuff was in trailers for the episode just during the week before the episode was released these are things you hide and hold for the fans to see when you release the episodes on screen So I'm not happy with the way that the show has been marketed. People could see what was happening. There's another big reveal that happens in this episode that was also spoiled in the trailer as well. Well, there's been a few reveals, I think, going forward.

So, yeah, it's not been the most tight lips of sets or of marketing companies. Yes, but it just feels like the marketing company are saying, well, people won't watch it unless they know exactly what's going to happen in the episodes. And actually what's happening is people are watching those clips on YouTube and forming a college industry on watching the clips on YouTube rather than actually watching the show. Darius Scarlet Payne, the showrunner for the show, has been really clear.

The reason why there isn't a season four of Daredevil Born Again right now is because people need to watch season two and season three. If they don't watch them, Disney won't greenlight a season four of the show. Regardless of how much people like it and talk about it, if they don't watch it on Disney+, we won't get a season four. so watch the episodes so yeah whenever you need i know you are watching the episodes fellow defenders you wouldn't be listening to our podcast if you weren't but uh but yeah that's the big the big one these scenes though with the avocados at law the really young matt murdoch the really young foggy nelson in their first big role together at the law firm that we saw them at for i think in a flashback in season one of daredevil before they had their own firm i love this you know there's a a different dynamic between the two characters.

You could tell why they're close friends. They already have a great friendship being built up They already working really hard together They have that from college But them learning a bit more about each other and that that storyline that we have here as you mentioned that the person that they're going into meet, Lionel McCoy was someone that foggy knew from before he met Matt, but from before he went to college from his hometown guy didn't like, but it doesn't mean he doesn't deserve the justice that they can help bring for him. Well, that's it. And I mean, it comes across as being quite simple, you know, a plea deal.

And it actually, it's McCoy to give them a teaching here. It says like, yeah, that's what they want you to do. That's what they want me to do. As soon as I do it, it's not about 10 years or three years or, you know, reduced sentence to three years.

It's, I have 24 hours because they have 10 guys on the inside who are going to kill me. So they're going to kill me as soon as I go in. And, you know, it's all that element to it that kind of kicks off, you know, the fact that I guess this discussion between Foggy and Matt and it's to a mathematician's point here and from his episode four feedback where you have Foggy wanting to do right by his client in a sense. and partly as well because he grew up in the same neighborhood but it's not someone who he was friends with i mean he calls him foggy the fembot and so you know he's he's defending a guy who's never really been particularly nice to him but he sees that his brothers had a second chance maybe it's time for ray mccoy to have this second chance whereas matt is very much who cares he should rot he should get what's coming to him effectively in the same way as we're saying that's what should happen to fisk and in the end um you know he he is um sort of won around over time uh to foggy's view on this yeah yeah foggy foggy totally in the right here um they have an opportunity to stop this guy from going to prison um and he's showing matt that mercy is a is a choice um and he deserves mercy and maybe them being merciful will allow uh lionel to live um you know it a really important conversation that they having it interesting to see matt being on a different side of that argument because we spent so much time with moral Matt making the decision to save lives at all costs And that's something that we're showing here in these scenes that he's learned from Foggy, which I love.

I absolutely love that idea, you know, that Foggy's being really clear with Matt. We have an opportunity here. There's a get out of jail free card. you would use that on somebody that you felt you wanted to save but we should also use that on someone that has been put into our care as lawyers this is why the avocados at law the firm of foggy nelson and matt murdoch don't go into cases for money they go into cases to help people that need to be helped you know that's why they have they set the firm the way they set it up as well so um a great way of telling a story of these two characters together um yeah really loved And we do see, you know, sort of the fine margins of timing and so on later on in the episode with Ray narrowly missing a run in with a young and slightly more flowy of her book Cashman.

Yes. Who I keep calling Bush Cashman. I know. I suspect I think he's some kind of outback sort of adventurer in Australia.

Bush Cashman? But weirdly, he's an upper-class British guy with the name Buck Cashman. As a constant running joke on the Empire podcast, that Buck Cashman should be called something like Pound Money Man because he's British. Actually, and I didn't answer a mathematician's question earlier on, this is a comic book character.

This is a character from the Daredevil comic books. He appeared in issue 250 of Daredevil originally back in 1987. The character is a gun for hire. and he is known as Bullet.

He is a person that is used to kill people that are deemed required to be killed by the American government in this case. So interesting to have him aligned with the mayor of New York as his gunman. So yeah, and here we find actually he's going back a lot farther than that. But we'll talk much more about Buck Cashman, I'm sure, as we get through the rest of the episode.

Anything else on the appearance of Foggy here, John? Specifically? I was really pleased to see Foggy here. In the same way, I was really pleased to see James Wesley.

It was great to see a young Buck Cashman. So I really liked the context that these flashbacks brought to this story actually I like how it interwove with fisk and vanessa flashbacks and moments as well so yeah this was really good and and actually how it all played into the present day absolutely with with matt in particular yeah yeah for sure and one of the things you may know now but if you don't um the reason why the flashbacks look so different from the current footage that the scenes that we have in present day is because they actually match the start the film stock they match the filming style of uh of the netflix show to give the flashbacks that real feel that you're back in uh the netflix era i went back and watched um the rabbit in your headlights uh episode uh episode four of season one and you can really feel it that those scenes that we have uh mass and foggy together and the scenes with with uh wesley and fist together and they all feel a part of the Netflix show as opposed to the Disney Plus show, which is gritty as it is, but it is beautifully filmed on very high quality digital film, whereas the Netflix footage is slightly different. But they went back and matched that to make sure it could sit alongside. I think you were thinking some of them were actual cut scenes from back in the Netflix days.

Yeah, no, I did. Certainly the stuff with Wesley. Just because I think I saw him and Fisk in the back of a black sedan. so many times in season one i just thought oh i guess they just used just use other footage um but i guess they'd have to pay netflix quite a lot of money for that and so yes it's cheaper no they have they have used some some footage yeah but i mean there was so much here in the flashback exactly like it really was i mean i mean to the point that the case person is someone different yes you know um so but i think it's a really good way of using flashbacks here absolutely absolutely let's get on to our case note number three order in the court and tying in with those flashbacks our case number three is dd exercises mercy um i love how the episode opens with um daredevil taking decks through the underbelly of um the the area in hell's kitchen around fogwell's gym um being tracked down by the avtf and daredevil all he wants to do is get decks out of the area, got the two of them off to safety, but everything bearing down around them is just a really cool scene.

It's proper fugitive kind of feel. It really feels like they're getting penned. in these two. I really did feel like Matt was back on home turf going down in the sewers.

I think he spent some time down there with the Russians back in Season 1 and Season 2 of Daredevil. So it was kind of cool having him get away from Fogwell's gym, a place he would have gone to almost every day when he was a kid, and taking decks with him through restaurants and back alleys and everywhere to get them to safety. And I love even just going into the restaurant looking for some towels to dry up the blood and the guys in the restaurant are going, we're with you yeah no absolutely we're on your side yeah really interesting moment i do i do like how this plays out though where with you know dexter is a point dexter here is really you know don't help me why are you helping me uh i i need the balance the scales need to be settled and i've earned this pain and misery many times over you know and daredevil is trying to help him But having said that, you know, he keeps pushing him saying, well, I killed Foggy. And he's like, don't you can't say Foggy's name.

Don't say that name. And, you know, that night I was thrown off the roof by you. I was supposed to die. He says maybe.

And this is the again, the other nice little bit of linking in as Matt says, maybe it's not part of the grand design. uh to to um to bullseye and i mean this is just like you know he wants to die so it's to your point around the diner it's he wants that redemption he wants that in a sense physical sacrifice for what he's done previously you know the the sins he has to sort of wash away are ones that can only be done with the equivalent pain misery and ultimately his death yeah and and that's why he's pushing back against matt and daredevil here all the time it's funny isn't it like you know this would be would have been used as an argument um on the side of why isn't matt murdoch killing uh his enemies um because he threw dex off a roof when he killed his best friend right and here in this episode we have Matt specifically saying to Dex the reason I have to save you is because I absolutely shouldn't have thrown you off the roof the reason I'm trying to save you is because I tried to kill you and I shouldn have done that well he says maybe yeah well that it penance is mutual Is mutual yes Love it Love that yeah That is so much part of his character He takes him back to the church to hide out in there. They eventually get back there with the priest inside, trying to help them out. You like it when priests lie.

Yes, absolutely. Or omit the truth. Yes. Yes.

No, I didn't see anyone, Gov. I was doing my praying. Cleaning the font. Yeah, but I do think there's something sinister in that scene as well that, you know, some people might miss.

Powell and his gunmen are standing at the door of a church and pushing their way in. When the priest has said to them, nothing to see here, they're pushing their way in like the Gestapo. They do feel very like a Hitler army when they're completely ignoring the normal rules of engagement in the city here. They've been told by Fisk, do everything.

You can do anything. I'll square it away later on, find these two. And they're pushing their way in, carrying guns into a church. You know, that's a that would be way overstepping the mark in normal circumstances, in normal day to day life.

Walking into any religious house carrying weapons, but not when when there's a priest standing at the door telling you there's nobody inside here. yeah it just feels like a really sinister part of this episode that just might be missed yeah no absolutely um it's very kind of um you know they're kind of like well things have changed now and they just walk in exactly yeah and then when they find the blood of of decks on the floor after uh malice has um taken him out of there again i was feeling will this priest survive the right you know um will they take out their frustration that they couldn't find the two of them on the priest saying he is lying to them um when he doesn't actually know where they've gone yeah that's it and i mean i mean i don't think they would would do that but you kind of feel they would arrest him i think powell would do that though that's the thing like i don't think the abtf as a as a whole remember powell's the guy that stuck someone's hand in a fryer of hot oil last season when when he just started out uh setting up the abtf what's he doing now with all the power he's been given i'm not sure if someone being a priest is gonna uh deter him from uh from doing something to them especially the way he is in this episode no but i exactly um although i do like then that and how it interplays with the flashback of the avocados that you know in a sense Daredevil is leaves Bullseye but he ultimately comes back to give him mercy and before his spot or the hiding spot is blown by the arrival of the AVTF so you know So Foggy's initial lesson that we've been getting is learnt and applied by Matt Murdock. Absolutely. It's really I think that's really good.

Really strong. I like how it just it just reinforces their relationship and the strength of it from even beyond the grave. Exactly. Exactly.

And you know what I really like about it as well is that Matt says when he's leaving Bullseye behind, Matt goes, well, I can't save both of us. and then goes back and saves them. So he was just trying to justify it to himself. So it was him kind of going, well, I can't save both of us, so I might as well at least save my own life, and then comes back and saves both sides.

So he could have absolutely done it, but he had to make the decision to show mercy on Dex. So a great connection. Because he's shown it to Fisk, I think. Yeah, I think just overall, Foggy would ask he show mercy on everybody around him, even the person that killed Foggy.

that's his realization we have karen as the counterpoint to this was the side eye yeah when he walks into the punishers old hideout and goes a little help carrying bullseye in his arms like you know i wouldn't be going to sleep with uh karen in the room um if i was bullseye no and i wouldn't be going to i wouldn't be leaving karen alone with bullseye in that place um yeah but i know karen's pretty moral as well so she'll probably keep him alive but just be very angry and throw lots of side eye at Matt lots of side eye I hear what are you doing bringing Foggy's killer back to our hideout not great anything else about that scene and those moments John? no nothing from me just really good at how that lesson and the friendship all kind of comes together here with that moment absolutely let's get on to our next case note shovel her saw John you know i telling you this was my favorite scene to watch blind um a couple of weeks ago when we were able to watch the screen if this is far as we got when we were watching the screeners up to episode 5 And these scenes between Daniel and Buck Cashman throughout the episode were so tense, especially as we started to see flashbacks of how long Buck Cashman has been involved in the business of Wilson Fisk, going all the way back to the time when he was brought on board around these original flashbacks by James Wesley. It means you know how much Buck Cashman is willing to do for Kingpin. You know, it starts out as, let's go out and get a hot dog.

And then suddenly they're driving to Albany and Daniel has no idea why they're driving out so far. And it's so interesting, you know, given that the character is played by Jen Ganolfini's son, who was central to The Sopranos. This would be something that would happen every four or five episodes of The Sopranos. They would leave New York City, go out to the burbs or go out to a forested area.

and then one of them wouldn't be coming back. So to have Daniel Blake being played by James Galifili's son being brought out to a forested area by the hitman of the Kingpin, there were two things that were playing in my mind. Number one was Daniel Blake wasn't coming back. And the second, the other option was when they opened up that booth, this is dark, but I thought it was going to be BB in the booth.

that Buck had identified that B.B. was the leak and he had killed her and was going to make Daniel bury her. Now, that is something that you would see in Sopranos. And then I realized, let's hang on a second, pull it back.

This is still Daredevil. It's still a comic show. They wouldn't go that far with a major character on the show. But it did feel like that's something that they could have done.

I had the same feeling, but only up to the point where the booth opened. up till that i really felt as though book cashman was going to kill daniel so i was in i was absolutely totally drawn in by that ride up to um the the field uh the fact that you have you know in parallel you see a young book cashman trying to kill ray um and ultimately you know the shovel and the saw possibly a little on the nose but it was that was also a real dark comedy moment for me i did kind of laugh i like the way that daniel played that around thinking right i'm going to start the engine here i'm going to drive off and he does that really really well he thinks better of it but you know ultimately when he's driving into the field and he's being told to get out he's like you don't have to do this man because the whole conversation up here has been you know the leak from the mayor's office the sinking of the northern star all these things that have happened that are bad and almost like he's trying to pin them on him yeah that's why i did think oh bb auric is going to be in in the back as well um and it's both of them that are going to get sort of taken out maybe but um you know he then tells daniel that a man who's given you everything demands loyalty yeah uh and here in the first instance you think and the chips are being banked here and you've not won enough yeah yeah but instead it is you know the choice of saw or shovel and so that he shows his loyalty by bearing the dead second in command uh of the northern star christophie sever yeah so yeah this this i thought it was great tension here so um really good it and that's the thing when it's drawn out that long and you have that level of tension i guess your mind starts to wonder like as you say um is it the second in command of the northern start is it bb uric is it going to be daniel what is happening here yeah um you know and it was just really nicely done because it just lets your imagination run away with itself. Yeah, yeah. And I do think just how tight-lipped Buck Cashman is on any question that Daniel has, you know, when Daniel starts to get really stressed out thinking it's going to be him that's murdered, he thinks of it as well, you know.

That Buck Cashman just gets even more silent, you know. He doesn't answer any questions at all of him. When he's pushed, he kind of goes, pull in here, and then goes in and gets the tools of the trade to kill and bury someone you know um so of course daniel is going to be thinking that he's going to die it seems like buck cashman was messing with him and i wonder if it was partly because of we hear a reference again to the fact that daniel had been investigating who buck cashman was he'd found out that he was in regiment 22 that he was part of the secret service in the uk that he made him eat the uh east street meat the hot dog last time so is buck cashman messing with daniel because Daniel was messing with him Around the street meat exactly I got you to eat it you know That was you know trust me I got you to eat the street meat And I wonder if Book Catherine going wait a minute I show you what messing with someone is Yeah, Book is like, I got you to think it. You know, so yeah, no, this was really good.

I really enjoyed this kind of tense sequence between Book and Daniel. Absolutely, absolutely. And just even the tie back to the fact that Wesley knew this guy, the two of them had worked together. one of the biggest, as we mentioned before, one of the biggest regrets of the original Daredevil season was that a character as good as Wesley was gone.

Well, now we know at least his legacy lives on through Buck Cashman, and Buck Cashman is quite similar to Wesley. So, Grant, we can now say our actual replacement for James Wesley is Buck Cashman. We like him a lot. Let's see him go on for another couple of seasons.

It also does have a very good little pun where Book is talking about his time in Helmand in Afghanistan and Daniel says, the mayonnaise? Do you remember Helmand, the mayonnaise? No, Afghanistan, yes. Really good.

And that was a creepy old story that Her Majesty's Secret Service were sent in to take out opium farmers. It turned out there were 14, but that didn't matter because they were sent there to do. So you carry out the mission that your leader gives you. In that case, the Queen.

In this case, Kingpin. I don't think the Queen literally sat down and said, kill the 14-year-old opium farmers. But it's Her Majesty's Secret Service, right? So, yeah.

No, it's the SAS. Sorry, that's Bond, isn't it, sir? I guess it's the SAS or the military of some, yeah. Regiment 42.

Yes. That's what we do. Right. Excellent.

I don't know enough about the Secret Service in the UK all I know I've learned from Bond and well Austin Powers and Austin Powers in some sense which actually interestingly is referenced in this episode that is where Fembot comes from is from the Austin Powers movies so Lionel Foggy's friend Foggy's friend's brother must have been a fan of Austin Powers there you go, that's a reason to let him live as well I think so, absolutely Right, let's get on to our final case note for this episode. Tell me the story of how we mess. I will say when I wrote that down as the title for our case note I did get a little tear in my eye because I think it such a beautifully played scene by alexura um reprising the role here of course as vanessa for this season uh to think that when they originally greenlit daredevil born again alexura wasn going to be coming back they were going to get a different actor in to play the role um and it feels like you just wouldn't have had the magnificence of this storyline where you're able to do back to how they originally got together why how all of the chips falling the way that they fell led to the meeting of wilson fisk and vanessa and to this final scene of the two of them together if you hadn't had um elitura coming back to the role it just doesn't feel like it would be as impactful as it is here well that's it i mean the rabbit in the snowstorm is such an iconic sort of motif of uh wilson fisk from the marvel netflix shows and this flashback in in terms of even with vanessa going against her boss to actually display it and the fact that wilson fisk is there because in a sense wesley doesn't trust bitcoin um and is thinking how How about something a bit more blue chip and we can basically clean our money through artworks? It also feels so realistic.

I know everybody talks about Bitcoin and how Bitcoin is used by criminal enterprises. But I'm sorry, have you seen what some paintings sell for the hundreds of millions of quid for a terrible painting by a private buyer who will not be releasing the name and it will go into their private collection? Yeah, it won't. It's just going to go into a back room because the real deal was putting that 300 million quid washed through art washing, I guess, would be the way they're doing it.

That's what it feels like to me. So it was cool to have that. I love Wesley going. I have contacts in crypto.

If you want to go through crypto, you can, of course. But I have another idea for you. I know someone who owns an art gallery. And it turns out that is where Vanessa works.

But I love the commentary that she has on Rabbit on a Snowstorm. She sees it and knows instantly it will sell. And her line to her boss when the boss is saying, we can't put it off because it's basically just a white painting. Vanessa goes, if the right person sees his own deep, inexorable loneliness reflected back at him, you will not only sell it, you will sell it for three times the asking price.

Yeah. Fabulous. yeah and i i love that in those final moments at the end of the episode as well and she says you vastly overpaid for it yeah and he like well no i didn because you know it led to us it led to us and um you know that was the great thing and again the the little reflection back with foggy and uh matt is you know them meeting in the art gallery as as Vanessa says, it wasn't luck, it was the grand design. So, yeah, I found this really poignant, these final moments between these two, because in a sense, Vanessa, yes, she's deeply embedded in his criminal organisation.

Yes, she's got her hands delved in the muck along with Wilson Fisk, but she's the one person that humanizes Wilson Fisk she is the tempering to his animalistic instincts in a sense what the governor of New York State was able to identify in her in the previous episode and she is she humanizes Wilson Fisk if that's gone who else surrounds him that he has that kind of time with yeah it's not powell it's not but cashman and it's not daniel and it's no one else they're all you know an paid assassin a absolute psychopath in a uniform it's a please all all the time and who knows you know yes man effectively so she's kind of the grounding a bit of fisk in being able to almost as well portray being a mayor a sane mayor so it'll be interesting to see um it's going to be what happens terrifying to see this is like pulling off the seal on a pressure cooker as it gets to its crescendo um wilson fisk will never be more angry than seeing his wife die and knowing that there's somebody out in the city aka bullseye that killed her and is free he is going to go wild. Absolutely. I have no idea what way they're going to go. I say Retribution will also fall on the pineapple juice as well.

Well, I think so, yeah. Yeah, in these scenes when she wakes back up, She says to him, I want to have some pineapple juice. He asks, can I get you food? Can I get you, can I get you drink?

And it's just an interesting moment. And I remember saying this to John when we watched the episode. She says when she wants the juice, he reminds her that she always said she didn't like pineapple juice because it makes her lips all tingly. And I was going, well, that's a really interesting, very specific thing that he said.

Like that's if you if you eat something that you're allergic to, like when people eat seafood and they're allergic to seafood, they say their lips tingle. And then just after that, they say that that's when the throat kind of closes and they have to take their their injection to reduce the reaction that they've had. And it's very specific that she has that. But Wilson Fisk, of course, is going to get her her pineapple juice.

She drinks a whole big old glass of it while they're having this conversation. but it's such a beautifully written conversation where she says tell me the story of how he met and for a moment Wilson Fisk has his Vanessa back and he's more than happy to entertain her by telling that story of both sides of what happened he needed a deal to be done she wanted to sell a painting the alignment of the stars that led them to meet each other of course he's going to recount that story to Vanessa especially now that he has her back and then she looks at him, smiles and says tell me the story of how we met again and can't finish the sentence as her brain starts to disconnect. Well you get the flat line don't you really it's really kind of it's a really good scene between these two and so well done so powerful really emotional you know even though they're the bad guys of the piece you know in that sense. But again that's what makes this a great show not just a good show it's it's telling the story of all of the characters in here you know it's not it's called daredevil but it is really wilson fisk and matt murdoch as two central characters as two sides of the same coin two sides of the law um you know the good and bad guys but it is a deep story these are things that the reason why you have tv shows as well rather than movies all the time because tv shows can delve deep into characters and show you their other side.

Yeah, no, absolutely. You want to have a character in a relationship who's properly in love with their partner. It doesn't matter whether they go out and kill people at night or during the daytime, in Wilson Fisk's case. You also want to see a rounded character someone that does live in the world and something that been so central to that is the relationship with Vanessa It also the rug being pulled under the feet of Fisk You know, he's so powerful.

He's so kind of in control because of, in a sense, his caution in many respects and the people around him, including Vanessa. But he's so happy and animated because she's alive, but it's so short-lived. And he becomes, you know, you see him becoming overwhelmed. And if the despair that you saw at the start of the episode where he tells Powell, I want them alive, you just know he will be going out himself to find them.

So, yeah, this was really, really good. I love how the episode closes just on the original Rabbit on a Snowstorm with the crashing of the waves, just that original scene of Wilson Fisk completely lost in the painting with Vanessa beside him and then just the waves going into another silent closer for the episode. Really, really good. I think that's it for our major case notes.

Is there any notes that you wanted to mention, John, that we haven't mentioned in the episode discussion at all? No, nothing from me. nothing else from me there's no post credit scene on this episode our whiskey watch has come to naught I know I need a whiskey after watching that episode definitely maybe I'll make myself an old fashioned once we've finished our podcast John but overall do you defend Daredevil Born Again Season 2 Episode 5 yeah I really do I really enjoyed this episode give it 5 fraturday f*** nuts out of 5 I just thought it was really really excellent I loved how the use of the flashbacks here. I love getting to see old Wes back in action.

The young Buck Cashman. Buck and Daniel driving to Albany. Just so good. This whole episode just was shaking with tension.

And what, as you were talking about pressure cooker, what the pressure will release into New York as we go into episode six. So, like, for me, that's just a fantastic episode for me. So, yeah, five Friday fucknuts out of five. Fantastic.

Yeah, it's a five out of five for me as well. This is an excellent episode of Daredevil. One of the things I loved most about this season is you watch an episode and you go wow that the best episode of Daredevil ever And then the next episode comes along you go wow that was the best episode of Daredevil ever So I don think it going to get better than this episode And that's fine. This is a fantastic episode.

If episode six isn't as good as this one, that's OK, right? Because I think we've reached a nadir here being able to do the bridging of the original Netflix show with the Disney Plus Daredevil Born Again show bringing together all of the characters from that show into this show. That's fantastic. And they've done such a good job here and such an emotional story and such a well-done flashback and more within this episode.

I think they've accomplished everything they could have. I'm in it for the long haul. I can't wait for the rest of this season. I'm delighted they have a season three in the bag that's going to be coming out hopefully next year as well.

I'm really happy to stay with these characters for even longer and especially now that this is really dare level season five um which i love so yes fantastic excellent stuff i think it's time to head to josie's bar for a nice uh whiskey i think yeah we need a whiskey or maybe a pina colada to keep the pineapple juice uh theme going on this one yeah that could work excellent uh yes on to our josie's bar quiz for season two john we have our fifth question uh do you want to give us the question yes fellow defenders fellow quizzes here is question five of the pub quiz how much money do matt and foggy have in their future fund yeah this is specifically what they say in the episode that they have in the future fund john do you want to get the question one more time yeah how much money does matt and foggy have in their future fund. Fantastic. That's question five of eight for the season. Get the answers then.

And when you have them all correct at the end of the season, email them in to us at feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com and you could be on the chance of getting your hands on some Daredevil Born Again goodies. We have got a bit of feedback in on episode five, John. First up, we have Harrison Fox's voicemail for this episode. Excellent.

Hello, fellow defenders. Harrison Fox calling again for Daredevil season two, episode five, which was phenomenal. I always worry when there's a flashback episode, when it's been several years since the last season or the last time we saw a character Jesse Plemons in El Camino comes to mind But they did a fantastic job with everyone in terms of having them look I guessing 10 years younger or so No awesome awesome job The episode in itself was so deep in its meaning and choices. And I really, really loved it.

And That ending, I didn't see it coming. I didn't see last week's ending coming. I didn't see this week's ending coming. This show continues to surprise me over and over again.

And I just have to give it five Hellman mayonnaise bottles out of five. It was fantastic. I think, what do we have, four episodes left? Is it nine?

I just am very excited to see an even more unhinged Wilson Fisk running things. it's going to be insane alright, can't wait to hear what you guys have to say take care Fantastic Harrison, I can hear in your voice how excited you were watching that episode as well I think I had the same feeling after watching it too, such a good episode Oh big time, and I love your out of five yes, I should have thought of that I've had to be bleeped Sorry John I went for a cruder form of out of fives. That's right. We all have our out of fives.

There are eight episodes this season. There were nine last season, eight this season. So just got three more left to go after this. Hopefully Jessica Jones next week and then the week after and the week after that, but probably not.

We should hopefully see her next week. Definitely. But I totally agree, Harrison, around just how well this show, certainly for this episode, has the depth of it, the surprises. I just think the interactions back to the old Netflix series, but all of it just works really, really nicely.

Absolutely. I think I even commented to John on the flashback that they even got Matt's terrible wig right from the flashback because when they're doing flashbacks to their earlier time together, he always had that awful wig on for when they were in collars together and then the early days. and then when they got their own firm, his hair seems to be much better. It seems to be more natural.

So whenever they stuck that terrible wig on, they obviously used something very similar for the flashbacks as well. So fantastic job. Thanks so much for that voicemail, Harrison. Yeah, thanks.

Harrison on email coffee and vodka says greetings fellow remembrance defenders oh my effing gourd this was the first episode of the year that had me staring at the screen minutes after it finished absorbing every scene of what I just watched more than just member berries and soprano homage this had me entirely wrapped up in all of its sincerity from beginning to end all without a single hallway fight even book being folded into the weave by wesley is now officially an honorary legacy character vanessa's send-off was beyond tastefully done and the shitstorm forthcoming from wilson's vengeance feels viscerally deserved and so much foggy what a gift causes me to hope for his survival a la brubaker's classic daredevil run come season three soup to nuts a masterpiece safe to say the war has truly begun five full circle rabbits old school avocados and bloody buddy cops out of five peace and take care coffee and vodka oh old school avocados i like that yes but you know how awful it is when avocados are old i mean you can hardly use any of them they only last a certain amount of time they they shine brightly well here in ireland it's generally they're either rock solid that you can use them to smash glass with or they've become so mushy because you're waiting and waiting and then all of a sudden they're so bruised and overripe that they're starting to turn black and all this and it's like oh i don't know anyway enough of that and the challenges i face yeah absolutely absolutely um but for that one day the guacamole is amazing and it is such a gift to be able to do an episode like this you're absolutely right coffee and vodka being able to see those flashbacks really really good great to see uh foggy back on screen will we have the character back in the future look it's comic book you know everybody has an opportunity of coming back in the future i'm so glad they were able to work it into the show the way they have here getting a full episode really um a character development episode for Matt using his friend from his past you know I think that works really really well to bring the character back will they do something as big as they did in the comic books to bring him back I just not sure if that would fit in with the overarching story of Born Again I just don know whether that turned viewers off that only watched the show if suddenly Foggy turns back up from out of hiding. I could say it was the snap. No, but we saw him die in the first episode. I know, I'm joking.

And to be honest, Coffee and Vodka, really love your turn of phrase of the fact that Buck Cashman has been folded into the weave by Wesley. The weave by Wesley I think is what is why I so loved the character. He was just this master manipulator until hit by just very clever really on it and then was caught out by Karen. But I do, I just love that notion that you've suggested of Wesley weaving in Buck Cashman into the legacy.

Either that, or it could actually become quite a nice tartan, maybe. The Wesley weave. The Wesley weave. Absolutely.

Great stuff. Thanks, Coffee and Vodka. We have an email in from Raina, who has another little reminder of who Buck Cashman might possibly be as well. Raina says, Hello, lads.

Hope you guys are having a splendid day. First episode this season, I woke up early for, and what an episode it was. I actually teared up first time since season three of the original show, when Matt said, what are we celebrating and foggy said mercy at the end of the episode the last shot was wilson and vanessa i teared up there as well it definitely hit as it went beautifully full circle also i adore the side characters this season buck and daniel are absolutely fantastic michael gandolfini acted his ass off to the point i actually started to question if he was going to get killed also the fact that we now know buck has been around for a long time excites me even more it is implied that Buck was kind of a fixer who has done jobs for Fisk in the past, which ties in perfectly with season one of the original show, where there was a mysterious trail of, quote-unquote, suicides by some faceless fixer with implications that it's Buck's work, like the Union Allied workers, the prison guard, and the guy that Karen was accused of murdering. If this is actually the case, Buck is scary as feck.

4.5 Foggy the Femme Bots out of 5. Keep up the great work. Kindest regards from Belgium, Rainer. Thanks so much, Rainer.

What a great reminder there. Yeah, really good to get your thoughts. And, yeah, that's a great reminder about the Fixer. And look let just say it book It it book work yeah and clearly he got the the smarts for you know quickly in quickly out to do the job uh no fuss no mess and get the job done but if you want a creative person to go in rather than you know wesley would just go in and shoot them and kill them and walk away if you need someone to do a creative kill you call in buck cashman the fixer to to set it up i love that idea agreed however the flaw in his plan for ray was a delivery man for takeout was like i've got your order here because if you've never ordered it yeah absolutely yeah uh-oh yeah that would definitely uh given the heightened sense um of ray uh he would be out there in a flash he knew someone was coming from pretty quickly didn't he Yeah, so he was out of there.

I wonder if he actually left because of Foggy's warning rather than being at the door when the delivery guy came. So I think he was already gone. He was. Otherwise, Buck would probably catch up to him pretty quickly.

Oh, no, he was. Definitely, that's how I took it. It's just that creativity was maybe not great. But it was his first one.

Exactly, exactly. He got better. A lot better. He got a lot better.

Absolutely, absolutely. That's brilliant. Thanks so much, Ren. great to hear from you as well for the podcast.

We hope to hear from you for the rest of the season as well. Yeah, thanks so much, Raina. Over on Discord, Glomdy says, they got me with Vanessa. Foggy and Wesley in one episode.

What a blessing. Yeah, completely agree there, Glomdy. Love the fact these two were back in an episode of Daredevil. Absolutely.

Thanks, Glomdy. Also on Discord, Dr. Bob says, what an episode. A flashback story weaved into the ending of One and the Lives of others.

Was the anaphylaxis tingly lips are a sign of allergy or drug pineapple interaction? It's a bugger for mucking up medicines and leads to VFRs that you shock for, but that death was magnificent. I thought Daniel was on his way out too, and Foggy. Marvelous, merciful, magnificent Foggy.

Indeed. Yeah, broken heart. Foggy. Aw, you see the little phone call that the signal that Matt used to have for Foggy still plays in my brain every time I hear his name.

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, really good. That's great, Dr. Bob, that you've confirmed something that I thought as well.

Did Vanessa's drinking of that entire glass of pineapple also contribute to her death as well Because I wonder like the fact that you mentioned the tingly lips it possible i love pineapple juice as well so now i gone off it but if you don't get tingly lips when you drink pineapple juice that's okay yeah but it's like you don't have an allergy to it that's the drug pineapple juice interaction but only because she's allergic to it it's like if she's uh taken that lobster from bel-air um diner and eaten that while she was in the hospital if she said Wilson I want you to go down to Bel Air and get the lobster that I've been looking at for weeks with some pineapple juice and a side of peanuts if she'd done that then yes a total bugger for her thanks for that Dr Bob also mathematician says Foggy's back yes okay it's a flashback return but still great to see him back in this episode Nelson's childhood bully Ray needs representing but still he puts Foggy's masculinity down by calling him a fembot, implying he won't enjoy this case. More flashbacks for another returning character, as Wesley advises Fisk to launder his money through artwork rather than Bitcoin. Matt gives his explanation for something that has bugged me since season one of Born Again, and the insistence on saving Bullseye at all costs becomes clear. it's his guilty conscience at losing the plot when he threw poindexter off the roof that is driving it i can now rest in peace when my time comes it does show however how brilliantly scar de pain and his team have done if they have you mulling over this stuff even when you aren't watching an episode we then get the juxtaposition of foggy educating matt about his lack of empathy was it intentional from the writers to explain the confusion over why matt goes above and beyond to save a life for whatever the consequences only to immediately confuse you again by showing foggy to be the empathetic one of the two who actually then goes on to teach matt how to be the better man great stuff on a personal note it feels boss to have picked up on the rabbit in a snowstorm connection from episode four as i'm someone who has never been any good at analyzing storytelling so i feel i might be improving a bit at it credit to the writers again for the way they have me thinking all the time about the show more and more impressed with the acting of gandolfini each week the mayonnaise brilliant and i want a sounding conversation which Scars the hell out of Daniel, who thinks Buck is on his loose lips, follows sunk ships, I think is the phrase.

Yes, indeed. He is afraid he's about to die. We find out it was Wesley who introduces Buck to Fisk, tasking the English mercenary with finishing off Foggy's childhood bully, who is now free, thanks to Nelson spotting a discrepancy in the search warrant. As Foggy wasted his time now that Buck is after Ray, foggy has to be a nicer guy than anybody i've ever met are the parallel scenes of flashback foggy helping to save the life of somebody who didn't deserve his help and matt doing the same with dex intentionally doing this way to show that matt has learned what foggy taught him just great to see foggy back to be honest matt decides not to leave bullseye at the mercy of the task force and ray escapes is parallel scenes an actual thing in filmmaking and is this what's happening here again as I'm thinking Book is about to kill a man in both of the scenes but I was misled yes again.

Karen is not happy with Matt for bringing Poindexter and Vanessa comes through her surgery successfully although it looks like some amnesia as she forgets about her slight allergy to pineapples as well as the true nature of Fisk and then she relapses and seemingly dies leaving Kingpin distraught Not as thrillingly explosive as the last episode but the writing and acting here had me gripped throughout Wonderful stuff. Not sure I've ever enjoyed a TV show like this before. The Shovel or the Saw? Who was in that car boot?

Brilliant stuff. Thank you so much, mathematician. Certainly, I think it was the first mate, Salva, Christofi Salva. It was definitely.

We saw the captain of the ship getting shot in the head by Buck a couple of episodes ago. And then Buck also kills Christophia and the Marshals back in episode three as well. So here they are in the boot in episode five. Yeah.

And yeah, it's certainly it's a lovely teaching exercise here across time and space with Foggy and Matt Murdock. and how it impacts influences Matt's events in the present with Poindexter Bullseye. So, yeah, really, really good. I just think it was so well done.

As I say, again, another really good use of flashbacks here that have a real integrated feel to the episode and between the flashbacks with it sort of mirroring one another around the grand design. So yeah really excellent stuff here from the writers and everyone to be honest It was really good episodes It was but like it amazing when you think back to the to the days of uh of the netflix shows there were 13 episode seasons uh for each of the shows from luke cage and jessica jones dare little and iron fist um and i remember when we were recording with with chris our co-host we would always get to episode six and we go right next episode that's the flashback episode of the show where they go back and tell you something about the past of Jessica Jones or of Luke Cage or of Matt Murdock and it would always be okay this is how they've laid out the program the program is six episodes of the show you get to flashback episode it tells you something new and then you close out the show with that knowledge this is so different in this one episode just giving you an indication of why Matt became the person he became and also in the specific circumstance why Matt is choosing not to let poindexter die um if he can help it in any way possible because of the inspiration from his friend foggy when they were younger like that's brilliant absolutely fantastic so yeah really love the difference in what they've done here while paying respect to the original shows they're also doing something different with it and so well as well thank you so much to all of you who've sent in your feedback to us of course you can keep sending that in for this episode or any episode that we cover to feedback at tvpodcastindustries.com and we will of course be back next time with our chat all about dead or born again season two episode six requiem and we will also be back with our next question in the josie bar quiz and if you missing chris he is over with derek discussing invincible season four uh that's out currently on prime video yeah a 10 out of 10 episode for uh for the invincible this week the penultimate episode of season four of invincible is fantastic if you're not watching it uh go check it out yeah one episode left and of course uh paralleling invincible we are around watching the final season of the boys as well at the moment yeah and hence probably why i used an exclusive in my out of five but we can't use exclusives on the boys which makes it a lot more fun uh but it's the fact that we've been talking about and watching the boys which is just impacting our our normal language as well we will of course be recording our thoughts on this week's episode of the boys the third episode of the final season of Boys, myself and John will be talking about that later on this week as well. But thanks so much for joining us for our Daredevil Born Again podcast. We'll talk to you again next time.

Absolutely. Thanks again, fellow defenders, for joining us until our next episode. Keep watching, keep listening and of course, keep defending. Bye.

Bye. Thank you.