Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Catherine Miller. Divorce Dialogues brings expert guests to the airways to talk through your divorce questions and fill in the gray areas of that separating. From thinking about divorce, to how to behave during divorce, to what to do after, this is Divorce Dialogues.
Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Catherine Miller. I'm the founder of the Miller Law Group and director of the Center for Understanding and Conflict, and I am on a mission to change how people divorce and help them divorce with dignity. My guest today is Ivy Menchal.
She's a financial professional with over 25 years of experience in the industry, and her purpose is to bring confidence and financial independence to individuals and families facing life-changing events. Whether it's the transfer of a business, divorce, death of a loved one in retirement, she's a financial transition specialist that can help plan for wealth even while change is swirling. Ivy's been featured on both television and radio talk shows. She's a member of the Financial Planning Association, Institute for Divorce, Financial Analysts, Family Divorce and Mediation Council of Greater New York, among others.
Welcome today, Ivy Menchal. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. Thanks, Catherine. It's a pleasure to be here.
So what got you into this business of financial transition planning? So first of all, I come from a family of business owners, so I've seen how the impact of transitioning in and out of a business can impact a family. And I, too, am a child of divorce. My parents got divorced after 34 years of marriage, and I was 33 years old at the time, so I guess they were waiting for the children to grow up.
We wanted to make sure you were really grown up. Right, exactly. Although I don't know why they got divorced in it. And I actually saw the impact on both of them, but my mother specifically, so she handled the finances of the house, which was very common and still is common.
She lacked that confidence. And quite frankly, she was probably more financially responsible than my father is. And I felt like she needed help, and I felt that she was so lucky to have a daughter who was in financial services. Not everybody's that lucky.
So my mission is to change the world and help people who need help. So that's kind of how I got into it. Plus also, I saw clients were getting divorced, and I had friends who were getting divorced, and they would come to me and ask questions. And I knew that I was giving them what I thought was good financial advice, but I felt that I didn't have all of the information.
I wasn't familiar with all the nuances of divorce. So I educated myself. You know, this is not what the show is supposed to be about, but I'm really struck, Ivy, by you saying, I don't know why they got divorced. And you don't have to answer the question, and you certainly don't have to say why, but this is a yes or no question.
Do you really not know? Oh, I meant if they were waiting for us to grow up, my brother. Okay. If they were waiting for us to grow up, then I don't know why they got divorced.
We're still trying to grow up. I see. Because I just think it's really, it's true. You know, we talk on this show all the time, and I think you probably agree that, you know, the children are the collateral damage, you know, in divorces.
And I think everyone who does divorce work has a divorce story, you know, and often goes back to childhood. So I was just struck by your experience. Oh, yeah. No, no.
They should have gotten divorced years before they did. However, I will say, to their credit, that they were better friends after their divorce than probably the last, like, eight, ten years of their marriage. Why do you think that is? I think that they truly loved each other, but they got married young, and I think that they both, they, quote, matured differently.
You know, once they weren't dependent on each other on a day-to-day basis, whether it be for financial reasons or social reasons, I think they were able to get back to that place that they really genuinely liked each other. Yeah, I think that's very heartening. And, you know, other people, and relevant to what we're talking about today, which is that, you know, when people sort of unlock that conflict trap, right, and they are able to work through it and let go, that they can find a new relationship that's a lot more comfortable maybe than the one they're currently in. And it was, I mean, I know this isn't the purpose of your show, but my mom passed away, like, 14 years ago.
And actually, at her funeral, my dad and my mom's significant other, like, hooked each other outside of the funeral home as if, like, we both love the same woman. You know, so, you know, the relationship is certainly okay once they got divorced. You know, that wouldn't have happened if it wasn't. That's for sure.
That's a touching story. So, since we're talking about emotions and money, you know, I think that my experience is that oftentimes emotional conversations are expressed in money debate and money negotiation. What do you think about that? Oh, my God, yes.
You know, so often, like, financial professionals get so focused on the numbers, and I don't want to say that the numbers don't matter, but so much of it, like, it's not, it's never really just about the numbers, you know, and sometimes, like, you know, you have to listen to what the people are saying, you know, what the clients are saying, and actually, even if it's just a friend of yours, too, you know, or a family member, you know, I mean, words matter, and, like, when people say things like, oh, they feel broke, it's really like they're telling you that they're broken inside, you know, or, you know. Yeah, they're talking about something, that they're using words that if you think about them in the context of their feelings rather than in the context of their money, they're telling you something about what's going on for them inside, and that's really maybe more important, probably more important than the money conversation they're having. Is that what you think? Right, yes, that's, you know, that's definitely the case, and, you know, when clients are going through divorce, they're making, you know, probably some of the largest financial decisions of their life, and, you know, the size of the transaction dictates the amount of emotion that's involved, you know, so, like, when you're buying a bottle of water, it's not, you know, it's not so emotional.
When you're buying a house, you're feeling a lot more emotion, so, of course, you would feel, you know, all that emotion when you're going through divorce, you know, and we're so focused on the numbers sometimes, and we forget that they're human beings and what they're feeling and what they're going through. I'm Catherine Miller. This is Divorce Dialogues. We're here on WVOX 1460 AM, alternate Wednesdays from 5 to 5.30, and we're also available as a podcast on iTunes and SoundCloud, and all episodes are also on the podcast website, www.divorcedialogues.com, and my guest today is Ivy Menchel, and we're talking about money and divorce, love and divorce, and the breakup and money, and, you know, I'm wondering about, you know, how you as a financial professional handle it when people are talking about money, not talking about money, you know, when the money conversation is really not about money, and therefore the problem that they're presenting can't be solved on a money level.
Yeah, so very early in my process, you know, during the life of the data gathering phase, I do try to spend some time with clients trying to get clear on what money means to them, and I think that that's really empowering, and at some point during the process, it's not uncommon that I sort of have to take them back, either take them back to that or for myself and the other professionals on the divorce team to really figure out how to help the client feel comfortable and settled depending on what money means to them. So does it mean status? Does it mean security? Does it mean power?
Like, what does it, you know, what does it mean, and how do we help them feel that as we're going through the process? Another thing that happens in divorce is that people feel mistrust around money, and either because there's been some other kind of breaking of a trust, like an infidelity, or there has been a discovery of something that does have to do with money, but I find that mistrust is malignant, and once it's sort of like in one place, it's sort of spread. So imagine, you know, I've had many, many cases where one party, typically the higher earning party, will have had an affair, and then the lower earning party, or the dependent person, it feels like, well, how can I trust him about the money when he had the affair, and then the other person, the person who's making the money, who had the affair, can say, well, you know, maybe I had an affair, but I would never do anything with regard to the money. You know, what do you think about that kind of situation?
How can you reassure a person who has been dependent, financially dependent on someone else, that they really do know what they need to know about the money? I think that's the advantage of having a financial neutral involved in the case, because I'm not representing the higher wage earner, or the lower wage earner, or the money spouse, or the less money spouse, and I think having a neutral party involved, and who's working with each of the spouses, can really fuse some of the mistrust, and, you know, get very clear, but it has to be somebody who's knowledgeable on all aspects of finances, so that you can, you know, take that global view for both clients, and know that, you know, we're checking our list, you know, more than once, right, we're checking the fact more than once. So we have people listening who are thinking about getting divorced, are in the divorcing process, and think, yeah, that'd be great to have a financial neutral. Can you describe, I mean, how that works, and how you and others work in that regard?
Sure. There's a very detailed data gathering process, and we want to make sure that we have a good understanding of your current financial situation, and then once we make sure that we've gathered all of the assets, liabilities, income, and expenses, so that we have that good picture, we'll do some, like, interim and long-term planning, either, you know, get very clear on your goals and objectives, you know, we'll take a look at different assets, if there are complex assets or income streams that need for both parties to be understood, and then once there are some options on the table, we'll take a look at, you know, what are the tax ramifications, do these options make sense for both parties going forward, you know, because sometimes something looks like it makes sense and is workable for both parties now, but then when you go out 5, 10, 15, 20 years, you see that it may not necessarily work for one of the spouses. So, you know, we'll do an overall review once they have options on the table as well, and then we can help them, depending on the circumstances, we can help them, you know, buy their assets, set up new accounts, and transition for the next phase of their life. Yeah, because I think that a lot of people who are facing divorce, especially if it wasn't their choice, especially, and if they don't make a lot of money or have been a stay-at-home parent for a period of time, they really wonder, will I be okay?
Now, that's a broader question, you know, will I be okay? But it does have real financial ramifications, right? So you can't really answer the question, will you be okay, like, broadly, you know, you can only kind of guess, and plan, right? And so you can plan financially, and so how do you help people really do that?
Yeah, I think it's important to really get clear on what your lifestyle, what the cost of your lifestyle is, or is going to be. You know, and I say even in divorce, there could be three different budgets or spending plans, right? What was your lifestyle during your marriage? What's the interim lifestyle, and what is going to be going forward?
And inevitably, it's more expensive to maintain two households than it is to maintain one household. But not double, right? No, well, not usually, not double, but you want to, I think it's a good time to sort of reassess, like, what's important to you and what your wants are versus what your needs are, especially if things are tight. And, you know, I think of the case that I worked on not that long ago, where one of the spouses was like, oh, no, I need to send, you know, X amount, and I have to live with a backyard, and I have to, well, and lo and behold, if that spouse were to maintain that kind of lifestyle, the spouse would not be okay going forward.
And we've seen changes. You know, we've seen changes in the way that client thinks now and how they're willing to live. But it takes a little while to actually get comfortable with that, you know, that things will change and your lifestyle will change. Yeah, I think what you're talking about is like, all right, so the first thing to do is to really know what does it cost, how are we spending money now?
Where's our money going? Is it enough money? Are we going to debt? Are we saving?
And how are we making this work? And then you sort of forecast what it's likely to cost to live that same way in two households, and then when it's not affordable, which it often isn't, because as you're pointing out, it really costs considerably more to live separately, to live in two places than it does in one place. When you have children going back and forth, you need two, you know, substantially equivalent places. Then you have to make choices, right?
And the choices are, where are we going to allocate our resources, right? And how are we going to allocate them on housing or schooling or vacations or, you know, whatever? And, you know, are we going to be able to bring more money in? And not just, what is this going to be like, you know, next month and next year, but five years from now, 10 years from now, 15 years from now.
Of course, the further out you get, it must be that the more speculative it is, right? Like, you're like, okay, well, my crystal ball doesn't quite go that far into the future. It's a little bit, it's a little murky there. And especially, you know, especially with children, right?
You have a three-year-old, you don't know what the expenses will be for that child, what their needs will be at age 15, right? So, I mean, there's definitely, there has to be flexibility in the plan. And I think that both parents need to be able to communicate with one another as things change. I'm Catherine Miller.
This is Divorce Dialogues. We're here on WVLX 1460 AM every other Wednesday from 5 to 530, also available as a podcast on Divorcedialogues.com. And I'm talking today with financial professional Ivy Manchel about money and divorce. And Ivy, if our listeners are interested in getting in touch with you or learning more about you, how can they do that?
They can call me at 212-244-4702, or they can check out my website at www.familywealthpp, that's two P's like in Peter, dot com, or they can email me through the website, too. That's great. Let's talk about financial infidelity. What is that?
You know, so financial infidelity is really when you've, like, broken the trust. One spouse has broken the trust of the other, and it has a financial impact on, you know, the relationship that they, you know, their relationship. Can you give us an example? Yeah, so there's lots of infidelity.
If somebody has a substance abuse problem, and they're spending a lot of money on whatever their substance abuse, or if they have a gambling problem, or maybe they have a spending problem, you know, and it has totally impacted the family's finances. What are some of the ways, Ivy Manchel, that people can deal with that in the divorce setting? You know, so I think, first of all, for the party that has the issue, I think to, you know, come clean and be transparent. And it will take time for the other party to really start to build trust again.
So I think, you know, these kind of cases, I find that you have to take lots of small steps in order for the person to feel less betrayed, or the betrayer to start building confidence, you know, in the relationship and in their behavior, right? Because they've gotten accustomed to a person saying to them, oh, you can't stop that behavior, or you said that you would, but you haven't. I think, like, small steps, maybe, and I mean, you're the attorney, but maybe does a post-nuptial agreement make sense. Have you seen cases in your own clients where people were able to get over something like that?
It's hard, right? Yeah, it's very, very hard. I think it takes commitment, funny words you're using right now, but it takes commitment from both parties. And I think that it takes transparency.
And I also think that they need, most people probably need to continue to work with professionals, both, you know, like family specialists or mental health professionals, as well as financial professionals to continue to build the communication and the transparency and, you know, the confidence in one another. Yeah, you know, I think it's funny that you laugh at the word commitment, but I think that, maybe ironically, if people are going to have a good divorce or feel good about themselves, you know, I'm on a mission to change up people, divorce, and help them divorce with dignity, and that takes commitment to yourself. And I think, and to your family, your children, and to your higher values, and your authentic, you know, being. And even while you're in the process of transitioning your marriage from married to divorced, that commitment to yourself and to what you most value is a really important thing to stick with, because, and tell me if you see this differently, even if you're angry, you feel betrayed, you feel hurt, you feel revengeful, like getting into those lower levels.
or more base feelings or sort of more instinctual things really doesn't result well. So you get a better result by staying committed to your own best self. You are so right. You are so right, Catherine.
And by better result, I mean financially better result, too. I'm not just talking, oh, you feel like a good person. No, I'm talking about a better settlement. Right.
I think that they have to feel secure and I think you're so right to like raise to the higher self. I agree with you completely. I've been doing this for a long time. Thanks for rubbing it in.
Almost as long as I have. So what has surprised you? What have you sort of learned over the years that has surprised you about divorcing people, transitioning families? That's a good question.
I think that certainly more so at the beginning than now, but it really used to surprise me that both parties in a marriage, like that there isn't that communication over finances. I mean, it's okay if one party, you know, pays the bills and the other one like manages the investments, but I think it surprises me that they don't have like a monthly date night, you know, to communicate about that. I also... Let's go see up over our jackpot.
Yeah, and that it's hard for people to wrap their heads around the finances when they're going through divorce. You know, and I do try to make it easier for clients and I know my colleagues try to make it easier for clients, but it's hard when they can't really wrap themselves, besides just a way to pay the bills. Mm-hmm, that's for sure. And I think it means a lot in relationship.
I think one of the reasons people do not do what you're saying, which is to sit down on a periodic basis and talk about their money and plan is because money means so much more than a way to pay the bills. And it brings up, I think for divorcing couples in my experience, I think the major cause of divorce is a failure of communication. So if they're having trouble communicating on, you know, any level of importance, talking about money, which has so many sort of multi-layered nuances to it, would be really hard. Right.
Is that something you can help people with during their marriage? People are like saying, hey, you know what, I don't want to get divorced, but I really could use some help having a conversation about money with my spouse. Yes, I actually just created a course with, you know, with a money coach to really address financial discussion, financial communication. It's so important, right?
People get married, they don't even, you know, they haven't even had a conversation with the other one has, what their values are, what's important to them. So, yes, that is something that I can help them with. Yeah, I mean, I think that we have a process in our office called the romantic prenup where people do similar to that. So it's not just a prenup conversation which sounds so ick, but it's about planning to keep that from happening, keeping divorce from happening because we talk about, you know, money styles and relationship to credit and saving and parenting during, you know, and working and all of that sort of stuff because it's so, you know, people spend so much time talking about the color of the napkins and so little time talking about those more important things.
Right, I love that romantic prenup. I love that. That's great. So, Ivy Mitchell, in our last seconds, do you have a quick piece of advice for our listeners if they're considering divorce?
Gather all of your information and make sure you have a good understanding of your current financial situation and work with good professionals. That's really, I think, great advice and even before people talk about it, having that information in place is probably a good idea. Right. Ivy, until it's been a pleasure to have you on Divorce Dialogues.
Thank you so much for your time and enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you, too.