Dr. McGee, John Calvin and the Apostle Paul Discuss Ongoing Sovereignty Theology

A note on this dialogue: This is a constructed, imaginative conversation created with AI assistance. The historical figures depicted here did not meet, and in some cases did not live in the same era. This exchange never took place — no statement here should be taken as a real quotation or a record of an actual event. It is a teaching device for exploring ideas. For the actual positions of Ongoing Sovereignty Theology, see the eight doctrines and the book. Note about this interaction produced using Grok 3: I began to explorer this ability of AI to extract the thoughts and opinions of great men who we will not get a chance to speak with until we arrive in heaven. However it must be said that even though it likely does a great job capturing the essence of what they might have said… they did not have this conversation. So please to not reference or quote this material as if these men did say these things but rater that they likely might have. [mike] Hey everyone, welcome to this virtual podcast! I am your host Mike Mathis, and I’m thrilled to be joined by some incredible voices from across history to talk about Ongoing Sovereignty Theology through the amazing technology of Grok 3. With me are Dr. J. Vernon McGee, John Calvin, and the Apostle Paul. Guys, thanks for being here or, well, for letting me imagine you here! Today, we’re exploring this idea that God’s sovereignty is a living, ongoing process, not just a fixed plan set before time. Dr. McGee, you’ve preached on God’s sovereignty a lot what’s your first take on this? [dr] Well, Mike, I’m glad to be here with you folks! You know, I’ve always said the Bible is clear: God’s in control of everything Psalm 103:19, “The Lord hath prepared his throne in the heavens; and his kingdom ruleth over all.” This Ongoing Sovereignty idea you’re talkin’ about it’s got a ring of truth if it means God’s actively ruling right now, not just sittin’ back after windin’ up the clock. But I’d wanna know: does it leave room for God’s eternal plan? I mean, Ephesians 1:11 says He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.” How do you square that with this “ongoing” business? [john] Allow me to weigh in, Michael. I am John Calvin, and I must say this concept intrigues me, yet it raises questions. In my Institutes, I argued that God’s providence governs all events nothing occurs by chance, for His decree is eternal and unchangeable. If this Ongoing Sovereignty suggests that God’s rule unfolds dynamically, as you say, with human participation, does it not risk implying that God’s will is contingent upon man? That would be a perilous departure from the divine majesty I see in Scripture, such as Romans 9:21, where the potter has power over the clay. [paul] Greetings, brothers! I am Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. I rejoice to hear you wrestling with the sovereignty of our Lord. Mike, this “ongoing” theology you speak of, I see echoes of it in my own words. In Philippians 2:12 13, I wrote, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.” God’s sovereignty is active, alive in us, not merely a decree from afar. Yet, I also proclaimed in Ephesians 1:4 that He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. How does your view hold these together? [mike] Great points, all of you! Let me clarify what I mean by Ongoing Sovereignty Theology, based on some thinking I’ve been doing. It’s not that God’s will changes or depends on us, but that His sovereignty is expressed dynamically like a story unfolding. God’s ultimate purpose is set, but the details, the “how” of it, involve real time interaction with us. Think of it like a master artist painting a masterpiece: the final image is in His mind, but each brushstroke happens in the moment. Dr. McGee, does that fit with your view of God working all things out? [dr] Hmm, I like that picture, Mike the master artist. It’s folksy, and it kinda fits! You’re sayin’ God’s got the endgame settled, but He’s workin’ it out day by day with us in the mix. I can see that in Romans 8:28, “All things work together for good to them that love God.” It’s active, not just a blueprint collectin’ dust. Still, I’d be careful not to make it sound like God’s improvisin’. He’s not surprised by anything He’s omniscient, after all! [john] I concur with Dr. McGee on God’s omniscience. Yet, Michael, your analogy troubles me somewhat. A painter may adjust his strokes, but God’s decree is perfect from eternity. If this “ongoing” aspect means His sovereignty engages with human freedom, I might see it as His ordained means to His ordained ends provided we affirm, as I did, that even our wills are under His governance. In Book III of my Institutes, I wrote that God’s providence directs all things, even the actions of the wicked, to His glory. Could your theology be a way of describing this divine orchestration? [paul] Yes, John, and Mike, I think you’re both touching on something vital. When I wrote in 1 Corinthians 3:9 that we are “God’s fellow workers,” I meant we’re part of His ongoing work in the world. His sovereignty isn’t a cold machine it’s personal, relational. In Romans 11:33 36, I marveled at the depth of His wisdom: “From him and through him and to him are all things.” This “ongoing” idea might just be how we experience His eternal purpose in time, as He draws all nations to Himself through the Gospel. [mike] I love that, Paul relational sovereignty! That’s the heart of it. It’s not about God being indecisive or us running the show; it’s about His active presence with us, shaping history as we go. Dr. McGee, you’ve talked about God’s sovereignty in everyday life does this feel like a practical way to see it? [dr] You bet, Mike! I’ve always said God’s not just up there in the clouds He’s down here with us. If Ongoing Sovereignty means He’s rulership is alive and kickin’ in our daily walk, I’m all for it. Take Daniel 4:35 “He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth.” That’s not static; it’s God movin’ and shakin’ things right now! [john] I remain cautious, yet I see merit in this emphasis on God’s living rule. Provided we do not diminish His eternal decree, I could interpret this as the outworking of His providence in time. Still, I insist: human participation must be subordinate to His will, as I argued in my commentary on Psalm 115:3 “Our God is in the heavens; he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.” [paul] And I’d add, brothers, that this ongoing sovereignty shines brightest in Christ. Colossians 1:17 says, “He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.” His reign is active now, sustaining and redeeming creation. Mike, your theology seems to celebrate that ongoing victory am I right? [mike] Exactly, Paul! It’s about Christ’s reign unfolding, not just in the future, but today. Okay, let’s move on to the next topic, so let’s wrap up. Dr. McGee, final thought? [dr] I’d say it’s a fresh way to see an old truth God’s runnin’ the show, and we’re in it with Him. Just keep it biblical, Mike! [john] I’d urge precision: God’s sovereignty is eternal, but if “ongoing” means His active governance, I can assent so long as His decree stands firm. [paul] I rejoice in this: God’s sovereignty is a mystery we live in, not just ponder. To Him be glory forever! [mike] Thanks, everyone! This has been amazing. Now let’s discuss how this theological position works out in the context of prayer. [dr] Glad to, Mike! Prayer’s one of my favorite subjects it’s just talkin’ to the Lord, plain and simple. Now, if this Ongoing Sovereignty means God’s actively workin’ in the world right now, not just followin’ some dusty old script, then prayer gets real exciting! It’s like James 5:16 says, “The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.” I’ve always taught that prayer’s powerful because God’s listenin’ and movin’. This theology of yours might say He’s not just hearin’ us but actually respondin’ in the moment like He did with Elijah, callin’ down fire from heaven. What do you think, Mike? [mike] I love that, Dr. McGee! That’s exactly what I’m getting at. If God’s sovereignty is unfolding dynamically, prayer isn’t just us reciting requests to a fixed plan it’s us joining Him in what He’s doing right now. It’s a real conversation. John, you’ve written about prayer and God’s providence how do you see this fitting in? [john] Michael, I approach this with care, as always. In my Institutes, Book III, Chapter 20, I teach that prayer is ordained by God as a means whereby we receive what He has decreed to give us. God’s sovereignty is eternal His will is immutable, as I see in Matthew 6:10, “Thy will be done.” Yet, this “ongoing” notion you propose if it means His providence engages us in time could align with my view. Prayer does not change God’s mind, for He is unchanging; rather, it changes us and brings us into His active governance. When we pray, we participate in His sovereign will, as He has appointed. But I caution: we must not imagine our prayers dictate to Him. [paul] Brothers, I greet you again in Christ’s name! Mike, this question stirs my heart. When I wrote in Philippians 4:6, “Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God,” I saw prayer as a living connection to the sovereign Lord. This Ongoing Sovereignty you speak of it reminds me of how I urged the churches to pray without ceasing (1 Thessalonians 5:17). If God’s rule is active and relational, then prayer is our cry to Him in the midst of His work He hears, He acts, and He draws us into His purposes. Think of Acts 12, when the church prayed, and God sent an angel to free Peter from prison. That was no static plan it was God moving with His people! [mike] Paul, that’s a perfect example! Peter’s release feels like God responding in real time, weaving the church’s prayers into His sovereign action. I think Ongoing Sovereignty Theology suggests prayer’s a two way street God invites us to ask, and He engages with us as we do. Dr. McGee, does that resonate with how you see prayer in everyday life? [dr] You bet it does, Mike! I’ve always said prayer’s practical it’s not just theology, it’s livin’. That story of Peter’s a beaut God didn’t just sit back; He heard the church and moved. Your idea makes prayer feel like a partnership: we talk, God listens, and He works it out His way. I think of Matthew 7:7, “Ask, and it shall be given you.” It’s active! Now, I’d still say God’s got the final say He’s not our errand boy but this “ongoing” angle sure makes prayer a lively thing, not just a formality. [john] I must interject, Dr. McGee. Partnership is a bold word, and I hesitate there. God’s sovereignty bows to no man. Yet, I grant this: Scripture shows prayer as a means of His active rule. Consider Moses in Exodus 32, pleading for Israel after the golden calf. God relented or so it seems in human terms but I’d argue His relenting was part of His eternal purpose, using Moses’ prayer to manifest His mercy. If your Ongoing Sovereignty, Michael, means God ordains our prayers as instruments of His will, I can find common ground. But the initiative remains His alone. [paul] John, I see your point, and yet I’d add this: in Christ, we’re brought near to God’s throne. Hebrews 4:16 says, “Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace.” Prayer under this ongoing reign isn’t just a duty it’s a privilege! Mike, your theology seems to say God delights in our prayers, weaving them into His living story. In my own life, when I was shipwrecked or jailed, I prayed, and God moved sometimes with miracles, sometimes with strength to endure. It’s as if He’s sovereignly present, not distant. [mike] That’s beautiful, Paul God sovereignly present. I think that’s the key shift here. Prayer’s not about twisting God’s arm or just checking a box; it’s about stepping into His ongoing work. If His sovereignty unfolds with us, then when we pray, we’re not outside the plan we’re part of it. John, does that ease your concern about human initiative? [john] Somewhat, Michael. If you mean our prayers are decreed by God as the means to His ends, I assent. But I’d still guard against any hint that God’s will adjusts to ours. His sovereignty is the river; our prayers are the current within it, not the source. Psalm 135:6 “Whatsoever the Lord pleased, that did he” remains my anchor. [dr] I reckon we’re all sayin’ somethin’ similar, just with different accents! Mike, this Ongoing Sovereignty makes prayer a daily adventure God’s runnin’ the show, but He’s got us on stage with Him. I’d tell folks, “Pray like it matters, ‘cause it does!” and this theology backs that up. [paul] Yes, and I’d say pray with faith, knowing the Spirit intercedes for us (Romans 8:26). God’s sovereignty isn’t a wall between us and Him it’s the bridge we cross in prayer. [mike] Love that imagery, guys! So, prayer in Ongoing Sovereignty Theology becomes a dynamic, relational act us joining God’s active rule, trusting He’s weaving it all together. Now let’s dig into how this perspective might influence our understanding of God’s omniscience. If God’s sovereignty is unfolding dynamically with us, what does that mean for His all knowing nature? Doctor McGee, you have preached on God’s attributes a lot, kick us off here. [dr] Absolutely Mike! God’s omniscience, His knowin’ everything, well, that’s a bedrock truth. Psalm one hundred forty seven five says, “Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.” Now, this Ongoing Sovereignty idea you’re tossin’ around, if it’s sayin’ God’s workin’ things out in real time with us, I’d still say He knows every move before we make it. Take Isaiah 46:10 “Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done.” To me, His omniscience means He’s never caught off guard, even if He’s paintin’ that masterpiece stroke by stroke, like you said. How do you see it playin’ out, Mike? [mike] Good question, Dr. McGee. I think Ongoing Sovereignty Theology doesn’t challenge God’s omniscience but reframes how we experience it. If God’s sovereignty is a living process, His all knowing nature isn’t just about foreseeing a static script it’s about knowing every possibility, every choice, and weaving it perfectly into His purpose. It’s like He’s omniscient not just of what will happen but of how He’ll shape it as it unfolds. John, you’ve wrestled with God’s knowledge in your writings what’s your take? [john] Michael, I approach this with my usual precision. In my Institutes, Book I, Chapter 16, I affirm that God’s omniscience is absolute He comprehends all things past, present, and future in one eternal act of knowing. Scripture, such as Psalm 139:4 “Before a word is on my tongue, you know it completely, O Lord” leaves no doubt. Your Ongoing Sovereignty, if it implies God’s knowledge adapts or evolves with events, would undermine His perfection. I’d argue His omniscience encompasses every detail of this “unfolding” you describe, for His decree includes all means and ends. If He engages dynamically, as you say, it is because He has eternally known and willed it so. Does your theology preserve this? [paul] Grace to you all! Mike, this is a rich question. When I wrote in Romans 11:33, “Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments,” I marveled at His omniscience. Your Ongoing Sovereignty resonates with how I saw God’s knowledge at work active, not detached. In Acts 17:26 27, I said God “determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God.” He knows every step we take, yet He’s present, guiding history toward His glory. I’d say His omniscience is what makes this “ongoing” aspect possible He knows all, so He can work all things with us in time. What do you think, Mike? [mike] I love that, Paul it’s like God’s omniscience is the foundation that lets Ongoing Sovereignty breathe. I’m not saying God’s knowledge changes or that He’s figuring things out as He goes. Instead, it’s that His all knowing nature is so vast, He can hold every potential outcome and still orchestrate it perfectly in the moment. Think of it like a chess grandmaster who knows every possible move on the board not just the one that happens, but all the ones that could and wins every time. Dr. McGee, does that keep God’s omniscience intact for you? [dr] Oh, it sure does, Mike! That chess grandmaster picture’s a good one folks can grab hold of that. God’s not sittin’ there scratchin’ His head, wonderin’ what we’ll do next. He knows it all every checkmate, every pawn move. I think of 1 John 3:20 “God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.” Your Ongoing Sovereignty just makes it lively He’s usin’ that infinite knowledge to work with us right now, not just watchin’ a movie He’s already seen. It’s practical, and it keeps Him big! [john] I find your analogy intriguing, Michael, yet I remain vigilant. A chess master implies strategy within a fixed game, but God’s omniscience transcends even that He authored the board, the pieces, and the rules. If Ongoing Sovereignty means He employs His eternal knowledge in time, engaging with our actions, I can accept it provided we affirm, as I did in my commentary on Hebrews 4:13, that “all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.” His dynamic rule must flow from His unchanging awareness, not react to it. Does this align with your intent? [paul] Yes, John, and Mike, I’d build on that. In Ephesians 3:10, I wrote that God’s wisdom is made known “through the church to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.” His omniscience isn’t just a fact it’s a power at work in us. This “ongoing” view might mean He knows not only what we’ll do but how He’ll turn even our stumbles like my thorn in the flesh (2 Corinthians 12:7) into His triumph. It’s as if His knowledge is alive, sustaining every moment. Does that fit your vision, Mike? [mike] Spot on, Paul! That’s exactly it God’s omniscience is alive, not static. It’s not that He’s learning or reacting; it’s that His infinite knowledge embraces every moment, every choice, and shapes it all toward His goal. John, I think this keeps His eternal awareness intact it’s just that we see it playing out dynamically from our side of eternity. Dr. McGee, does this make God’s omniscience feel more relatable in everyday faith? [dr] You bet, Mike! It’s like God’s omniscience ain’t just a high falutin’ idea for theologians it’s Him knowin’ me, right down to my coffee this mornin’. If Ongoing Sovereignty says He’s usin’ that knowledge to guide me today, not just a million years ago, it makes me wanna trust Him more. Proverbs 15:3 “The eyes of the Lord are in every place” feels like He’s watchin’ and workin’, all at once! [john] I’ll concede this much, Michael: your emphasis on God’s living knowledge, if grounded in His eternal decree, enhances our awe of Him. His omniscience is not diminished but magnified when we see it actively upholding all things, as Colossians 1:17 declares of Christ. Still, I anchor it in His immutability He knows because He wills, not because He waits. [paul] And I’d end with praise, brothers! God’s omniscience in this ongoing reign means He knows us intimately, perfectly and still loves us. Romans 8:29 “Those whom he foreknew he also predestined” ties His knowledge to His purpose. Mike, your theology seems to make that personal, not abstract. [mike] We’ve often assumed the stream of existence kicked off with Creation like time’s this cosmic clock that started ticking at Genesis 1. But Scripture hints God was acting before Creation, so maybe time’s just a measure, not the whole show. No Back to the Future reruns here God and all of us exist in a singular present. Dr. McGee, you’re a straight shooter with the Bible how do you see this shaking out? [dr] Glad to jump in, Mike! You’re right folks tend to think time’s this big river that started flowin’ when God said, “Let there be light.” But Scripture’s got more to say. Ephesians 1:4 “He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world” that’s God actin’ before Genesis 1! Time’s just His yardstick, like you said, measurin’ days and seasons for us (Genesis 1:14). I reckon this singular present idea fits Psalm 46:1 “God is our refuge and strength, a very present help in trouble.” He’s not rewindin’ tapes or fast forwardin’ He’s here, now, always. What’s got you thinkin’ this way, Mike? [mike] Thanks, Dr. McGee! It’s this realization that we’ve let ideas like a linear “stream of time” sneak in maybe from Greek philosophy or even sci fi vibes like Back to the Future. But if God was choosing and planning before Creation, time can’t be the whole framework of existence. The Ongoing Sovereignty point of view says time’s a created tool, not the essence of reality. God’s “I AM” (Exodus 3:14) means He’s in a singular present, and we’re with Him in it no cosmic flux, just His active now. John, you’ve wrestled with eternity does this jive with your take? [john] Indeed, I’ve long contended that God’s eternity precedes and transcends Creation. In my Institutes, Book I, Chapter 5, I write that God’s being is “from everlasting to everlasting” (Psalm 90:2), not confined to the succession of moments we experience. Your point that God acted prior to Creation, as Ephesians 1:4 affirms is sound. Time, then, as a measure within Creation (Genesis 1:1 5), is not the substance of His existence but a framework for ours. This “singular present” you propose if it means God’s eternal now encompasses all our moments without being bound by them accords with my view. Yet, I’d ask: does this diminish His foreordination of all events, which I see as eternal and immutable? [paul] Mike, this stirs my heart. When I wrote in Titus 1:2 of “the hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began,” I saw God active before Creation’s curtain rose. Time as a measure not a cosmic script fits what I preached. In 2 Timothy 1:9, His purpose and grace were “given us in Christ Jesus before the times eternal.” God’s not ridin’ a time machine; He’s the “I AM,” present with us. This singular present idea it’s like Acts 17:28, “In Him we live and move and have our being.” No past or future flux just His now. How do you see this changin’ how we live, Mike? [mike] Love that, Paul it’s all about living in His now! This shift hits me hard: if time’s not a sprawling timeline starting at Creation, but a measure God uses, then reality’s not a movie reel God’s watching. It’s a singular present where He’s sovereignly active. No Back to the Future flux God’s not bouncing between past and future; He’s here, and we’re here with Him. It’s why Ongoing Sovereignty feels so alive He’s not locked in a pre Creation script but engaging us moment by moment. Dr. McGee, does this make God’s presence pop for you in daily faith? [dr] You bet it does, Mike! If time’s just God’s ruler and He’s always in the now, that’s a game changer. Matthew 28:20 “Lo, I am with you always” ain’t just poetry; it’s real as rain! No cosmic episodes or time travel hijinks God’s right here, runnin’ things. It makes me think of Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever.” He’s not flippin’ through history books; He’s present, workin’ it out with us. Them Greeks might’ve boxed time up fancy, but this keeps it simple and close! [john] I’ll weigh in, Dr. McGee. This singular present, Michael if it preserves God’s eternal decree, I find it compelling. In my commentary on John 8:58 “Before Abraham was, I am” I note Christ’s claim to timeless presence. Time as a measure for Creation, not the essence of God’s being, aligns with Genesis 1 and Revelation 1:8 “who is and who was and who is to come.” Yet, I insist: His acting before Creation (Ephesians 1:4) means all history is within His eternal will. Does your theology ensure this, or does it risk making His sovereignty seem reactive? [paul] John, I hear you, and Mike, I’d add this: God’s singular present doesn’t shrink His power it magnifies it. In Romans 8:38 39, I wrote that nothing not time, not height, not depth separates us from His love. This “now” isn’t a limit; it’s where He meets us. Think of Pentecost (Acts 2) the Spirit didn’t wait for a future cue; He came when God willed, in that moment. Ongoing Sovereignty with a singular present means God’s not playin’ catch up He’s the Lord of the now, weaving all things to His glory. [mike] That’s it, Paul Lord of the now! John, to your point, this doesn’t make God reactive; His eternal will holds every possibility, like that chess master we talked about. Ephesians 1:11 “all things after the counsel of His will” still stands. But time’s not a sprawling stream; it’s His measure for this singular present we share. Dr. McGee, does this cut through the clutter for folks in the pews? [dr] Sure does, Mike! Folks don’t need a PhD to get this God’s here, now, always has been, always will be. No fancy time travel nonsense just a present tense God. Psalm 118:24 “This is the day the Lord hath made” feels like He’s handin’ us each moment fresh. It’s practical, livable faith! [john] I’ll concede, Michael: if time is God’s measure and His sovereignty reigns in this singular present, it exalts His nearness without compromising His eternity. Provided His decree remains the source, I see merit. [paul] And I’d end with joy Revelation 4:8, the creatures cry, “Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty, who was and is and is to come!” His now is our home. Praise Him! [mike] Amazing, guys! Time as a measure, not a cosmic episode God’s singular present ties Ongoing Sovereignty together. Next, let’s hit free will in this framework. Here’s the angle: Ongoing Sovereignty says God’s decrees are perfectly accomplished He’s got authority over all but He’s chosen to give His creatures a ton of autonomy. He only steps in when our actions might derail His plans, like with Jonah or Noah. And just to be clear, when I say free will, I’m not denying total depravity I still see salvation as the work of the Triune God. Dr. McGee, you’ve preached on God’s control and our choices how does this strike you? [dr] Mike! I like how you’re tyin’ this together. Scripture’s plain as day God’s in charge. Daniel 4:35 “He doeth according to His will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth” nobody’s stoppin’ Him! But you’re right, He lets us run a long leash. Take Jonah God said, “Go to Nineveh,” Jonah said, “Nope,” and headed for Tarshish. God didn’t zap him; He sent a storm and a fish to nudge him back. That’s your Ongoing Sovereignty God’s decrees win, but He’s workin’ with our choices, not yankin’ puppet strings. I’d say it’s practical folks got freedom, but God’s got the final say. What’s cookin’ in your head, Mike? [mike] Thanks, Dr. McGee! That’s the vibe I’m getting at. God’s authority is absolute, but He’s woven autonomy into the fabric of creation. His decrees are like guardrails, not a straitjacket. He steps in like with Noah, building the ark, or Jonah preaching when our moves could mess with His big picture. But day-to-day, we’ve got real choices. John, you’re the predestination guy does this clash with your view, or can it fit? [john] Michael, I consider this with solemn care. In my Institutes, Book III, Chapter 21, I teach that God’s eternal decree governs all things Proverbs 16:33, “The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.” Your Ongoing Sovereignty intrigues me: if God grants autonomy yet ensures His will prevails, it echoes my view of providence. Consider Jonah his flight was real, yet God ordained the storm and the fish to fulfill His purpose. I’d say this “vast autonomy” is real but bounded by His sovereign will. Man’s depravity remains Romans 3:11, “There is none that seeketh after God” so salvation is wholly God’s act. Does your theology affirm that our freedom never thwarts His decree? [paul] Mike, this stirs my spirit. In Philippians 2:12-13, I wrote, “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.” That’s your autonomy and sovereignty dance! God’s decrees like saving the Gentiles always stand, but He uses our steps. Take me in Acts 16: I planned to go to Bithynia, but the Spirit blocked me God steered when it mattered. Jonah’s a beaut too ran from God, yet preached in Nineveh ‘cause God’s will rolled on. This Ongoing Sovereignty feels alive God’s not micromanagin’, but He’s not asleep either. How do you see this playin’ out in us, Mike? [mike] Perfect, Paul that’s the heartbeat of it! In Ongoing Sovereignty, God’s decrees are rock-solid Ephesians 1:11, “all things after the counsel of His will” but He’s given us real space to act. Think of Noah: God said, “Build an ark,” and Noah could’ve said no, but he didn’t his choice aligned with God’s plan. God steps in like the flood or Jonah’s fish when our autonomy might veer off His path. John, I’m with you on depravity; we’re dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1), and only Father, Son, and Spirit save us. This isn’t Pelagianism our will’s free, but it’s not ultimate. Dr. McGee, does this balance feel biblical to you? [dr] You bet, Mike! It’s got that good ol’ Bible ring to it. God’s runnin’ the show Psalm 115:3, “He does all that He pleases” but He ain’t squashin’ us flat. I think of Joshua 24:15 “Choose you this day whom ye will serve” real choice, right there! Yet when Pharaoh got uppity in Exodus, God hardened his heart to keep the plan on track. Your Ongoing Sovereignty says God’s watchin’, lettin’ us move, and steppin’ in when it counts like a shepherd with a flock. It’s folksy and faithful keeps us responsible but Him in charge! [john] I’ll press this, Michael. Your examples Noah, Jonah show God’s will prevailing, which I affirm. In my commentary on Romans 9:16 “It is not of him that willeth, but of God that sheweth mercy” I argue our wills are free in scope, yet captive to sin and subject to His purpose. If this “vast autonomy” means we act genuinely, yet God intervenes to secure His decrees like Nineveh’s repentance or the flood’s timing I can reconcile it with providence. But I’d guard against implying our freedom rivals His authority. Does this theology keep His primacy clear? [paul] John, I see your caution, and Mike, I’d build on it. In 1 Corinthians 3:9, I called us “God’s fellow workers” real partnership, but under His hand. This Ongoing Sovereignty shines in how God used my shipwrecks and detours (2 Corinthians 11:25) my choices were mine, but His purpose steered the outcome. It’s like Galatians 5:13 “You were called to freedom, brothers” we’ve got room to breathe, but when it’s crunch time, like with Jonah’s storm, God’s decree trumps. It’s relational, not robotic. Does that hit your mark, Mike? [mike] Dead on, Paul relational, not robotic! John, this keeps God’s primacy front and center His decrees aren’t negotiable, but He’s crafted a world where our choices matter. Noah’s obedience, Jonah’s rebellion they’re real, but God’s authority weaves them into His plan. Total depravity holds; we’re lost without the Trinity’s work Romans 8:30, “whom He predestined, He also called.” Ongoing Sovereignty just says God’s sovereignly chosen to let us roam within His pasture, stepping in when the sheep stray too far. Dr. McGee, does this make faith practical? [dr] Sure does, Mike! It’s like God’s sayin’, “Go live, choose, love but I’ve got the reins.” Folks can grab that freedom to pray, to act, knowin’ God’s got the big stuff locked down. Matthew 6:10 “Thy will be done” meets our daily grind. It’s a livin’ faith, not a script! [john] I’ll assent, Michael, if this autonomy serves His immutable will. Proverbs 19:21 “Many are the plans in a man’s heart, but it is the Lord’s purpose that prevails.” That’s my anchor. [paul] And I’d end with praise Romans 11:36, “From Him and through Him and to Him are all things.” Our freedom’s a gift; His sovereignty’s the giver. Glory be! [mike] Awesome, guys! Free will in Ongoing Sovereignty real autonomy, ultimate authority, all under God’s dynamic rule. Next, let’s explore sin and redemption in this light. Now we will explore sin and redemption through this lens. Here’s the twist: if God’s ruling in a singular present not just a fixed past decree He can still make decisions today. Scripture calls us to pray for everyone’s salvation (1 Timothy 2:1-4), saying God desires all to be saved, yet not all are ruling out universalism. So, God’s actively working now, electing people for salvation as His saints pray, all according to His good pleasure. Dr. McGee, you’ve preached on sin and grace how’s this strike you? [dr] Good to be here, Mike! This is meaty stuff! Sin’s a mess Romans 3:23, “All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” Redemption’s God’s answer, and I love that He’s not just sittin’ on an old throne watchin’ it play out. If Ongoing Sovereignty means He’s rulin’ and reignin’ right now, makin’ calls today, that fits 1 Timothy 2:4 “Who will have all men to be saved.” He’s not locked into some cosmic guest list from way back He’s hearin’ our prayers and savin’ folks as we speak! Look at Acts 16:31 “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved” it’s happenin’ now, not just decreed way back when. What’s got you thinkin’ this, Mike? [mike] Thanks, Dr. McGee! It’s this tension: God desires all to be saved, yet not all are so His sovereignty must be active, not static. Ongoing Sovereignty sees God’s present-tense reign as dynamic He’s not bound to a single pre-Creation decree that locks everything in. Instead, He’s electing people today, responding to prayers, like in 2 Chronicles 7:14 “If my people… pray… I will hear.” Sin’s real, redemption’s ongoing, and God’s still at work. John, you’re big on election how does this fit with your view of God’s decrees? [john] Greetings, Michael, and all present. I approach this with care, as sin and redemption are central to God’s glory. In my Institutes, Book III, Chapter 21, I teach that God’s election is eternal “He predestined us unto adoption” (Ephesians 1:5). Sin entered through Adam (Romans 5:12), and redemption is through Christ alone. Your Ongoing Sovereignty, if it suggests God decrees salvation today rather than eternally, troubles me. Scripture says He “chose us before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4). Yet, 1 Timothy 2:4 shows His desire for all, which I’ve held as His revealed will, distinct from His secret decree. If you mean He applies election in time as we pray, I might find ground provided His eternal purpose stands. How do you avoid universalism here? [paul] Grace to you, brothers! Mike, this stirs my spirit. Sin’s a universal chains Romans 6:23, “The wages of sin is death” but redemption’s God’s gift through Christ. I wrote in 1 Timothy 2:1-4 to pray for all because God “desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.” This Ongoing Sovereignty you’re unpackin’ it’s like what I saw in the churches. God’s not done electing! In Acts 13:48, “as many as were appointed to eternal life believed” that’s active, present-tense grace. He’s reigning now, calling people as we pray, like when I prayed for the jailer in Philippi (Acts 16). Universalism’s off the table sin’s too real but God’s savin’ who He wills, when He wills. Mike, how’s this tie to prayer? [mike] Perfect setup, Paul! Prayer’s the key God’s present-tense sovereignty means He’s acting on our pleas. Sin’s the problem: it broke everything (Genesis 3). Redemption’s the fix: Christ’s blood (1 Peter 1:18-19). But Ongoing Sovereignty says God’s not just executing an old script He’s ruling now, electing now. 1 Timothy 2:1-4 isn’t a wish; it’s a call to join His desire through prayer. He didn’t decree universal salvation, or all would be saved, but He’s actively saving as His people intercede like Nineveh’s turnaround in Jonah 3:10. Dr. McGee, does this make redemption feel alive in the pews? [dr] You bet it does, Mike! Sin’s ugly Psalm 51:5, “In sin did my mother conceive me” but God’s grace is bigger! If He’s still decidin’ who gets saved today, based on His good pleasure and our prayers, that’s a kick in the pants to get prayin’! I think of Luke 15 the lost sheep, the lost coin, the prodigal son God’s out there savin’ folks right now. It ain’t universalism; it’s personal. John 3:16 “Whosoever believeth” means He’s pickin’ ‘em one by one, and we’re in on it. John, you’re stickin’ to that eternal decree does this mess with it too much? [john] Dr. McGee, I stand firm: God’s decree is eternal, not piecemeal. Romans 9:15 “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy” shows His sovereign choice. Yet, Michael, your focus on prayer intrigues me. In my commentary on 1 Timothy 2, I note God’s desire for all reflects His goodness, not a universal decree. If Ongoing Sovereignty means He applies His eternal election in time using our prayers as means I can reconcile it. Consider Moses interceding (Exodus 32:14) God “relented,” yet I’d say it fulfilled His purpose. Sin’s penalty is paid; redemption unfolds now, but the elect were known eternally. Does this preserve His freedom? [paul] John, I see your anchor, and Mike, I’d build on this: God’s freedom shines in His present reign. Sin’s chains are broken by the cross Galatians 1:4, “He gave Himself for our sins.” Redemption’s not a done deal sittin’ on a shelf; it’s alive! In 2 Corinthians 6:2 “Now is the day of salvation” I saw God savin’ folks as we preached and prayed. This Ongoing Sovereignty means He’s electin’ today, not just checkin’ a list. 1 Timothy 2:4’s no empty hope He acts when His saints cry out, like in Romans 10:13, “Whoever calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” [mike] That’s it, Paul redemption’s alive! John, your eternal decree holds: God’s not scrambling; He’s sovereign. But His freedom lets Him act today sin’s defeated, and He’s applying salvation as we pray. No universalism He elects who He wills but it’s not static. Think James 5:16 “The prayer of a righteous person has great power.” God’s reigning now, saving now. Dr. McGee, final thought on this for the everyday believer? [dr] Love it, Mike! Sin’s a beast, but God’s bigger 1 John 1:9, “He is faithful and just to forgive.” If He’s still pickin’ folks today, hearin’ our prayers, that’s a live wire for faith! Tell folks to pray like it matters ‘cause it does. God’s not done yet He’s the King, right now! [john] I’ll end thus, Michael: God’s sovereignty over sin and redemption is sure. If His present reign uses prayer to save the elect, I assent so long as His eternal will governs all. Romans 8:30 “Whom He predestined, He also called.” [paul] And I rejoice Christ reigns now! Ephesians 3:11 “The eternal purpose realized in Christ Jesus” unfolds today. To Him be glory! [mike] Wow, sin and redemption in God’s present-tense rule dynamic, not done! Finally, let’s consider the impact of this understanding on our eternal relationship with God We’ve been unpacking Ongoing Sovereignty Theology, and today we’re wrapping up with how this shapes our eternal relationship with God. This whole journey started for me with a lightbulb moment: we’re created to glorify God and enjoy a relationship with Him forever. That got me thinking if God’s all-knowing and outside time, like Greek philosophy often frames it, our eternal bond feels one-sided, like He’s just watching a done deal. But Scripture shows real, two-way relationships dynamic, alive. For me, knowing God, the Great “I AM,” exists in this singular present and wants an ongoing relationship with us forever it’s pure joy! Dr. McGee, you’ve preached on God’s nearness how does this land for you? [dr] Mike, you’re singin’ my tune! I’ve always said God ain’t some distant landlord He’s family. Isaiah 43:7 “Everyone that is called by my name, I have created him for my glory” that’s our purpose, sure, but John 17:3, “This is life eternal, that they might know thee,” ties it to relationship. Your Ongoing Sovereignty take God in the present, not stuck outside time makes it feel like a real friendship. Think of Moses chattin’ with God “face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend” (Exodus 33:11). Eternity with Him ain’t a museum tour it’s a livin’, breathin’ bond. What sparked this for you, Mike? [mike] Thanks, Dr. McGee! It was wrestling with that Greek idea God as this timeless observer, knowing everything in a static “all at once.” It made eternity feel like a script I’m locked into, not a relationship I’m part of. But Ongoing Sovereignty, rooted in stuff like ongoingsovereignty.org/theology-of-time, sees God as “I AM” (Exodus 3:14), fully present, not detached. Relationships in the Bible like Abraham bargaining for Sodom (Genesis 18) or Jesus weeping with Mary and Martha (John 11) they’re two-way, dynamic. Eternity with a God who’s engaged, not aloof, fires me up! John, you’ve thought hard about eternity does this fit your view? [john] Greetings, Michael, and all here. In my Institutes, Book III, Chapter 25, I write that our eternal state is to glorify and enjoy God, beholding His majesty Revelation 22:4, “They shall see his face.” The Greek notion of a detached, timeless deity indeed risks reducing our union to a passive gaze. Your emphasis on God’s present “I AM” intrigues me if it means His eternity embraces our every moment, it aligns with Psalm 16:11, “In thy presence is fullness of joy.” Yet, I’d insist: His omniscience and transcendence ensure He knows us fully, as 1 Corinthians 13:12 promises, “Then shall I know even as also I am known.” Does this theology preserve His unchanging nature in this ongoing bond? [paul] Peace to you all in Christ! Mike, this sings to my soul. When I wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, “So we will always be with the Lord,” I saw eternity as intimacy, not a cold checklist. Your Ongoing Sovereignty God in the singular present echoes how I experienced Him. In Philippians 3:10, I longed “to know Him and the power of His resurrection” that’s two-way, alive! Greek philosophy might lock God outside time, but Scripture shows Him steppin’ in like with me on the Damascus road (Acts 9). Eternity as an ongoing relationship with the “I AM”? That’s the Gospel’s heartbeat. How’s this shift your hope, Mike? [mike] Paul, it’s transformed it! If God’s not a bystander but the “I AM” who’s present Revelation 21:3, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man” eternity’s not static; it’s a growing, joyful dance with Him. That’s what hit me: we’re made to glorify Him (Isaiah 43:7) and enjoy Him (Psalm 37:4, “Delight yourself in the Lord”). Greek timelessness made it feel like He’s done with me once the plan’s set, but biblical relationships like David’s psalms or Jesus praying in Gethsemane show give-and-take. Dr. McGee, does this make heaven feel more like home? [dr] You bet, Mike! Heaven’s no stuffy lecture hall it’s a hoedown with the Lord! John 14:2 “In my Father’s house are many mansions” sounds like a place for livin’, not just sittin’. Your idea God enjoyin’ us back, not just us starin’ at Him fits 1 John 3:2, “We shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is.” That’s real fellowship, ongoing, forever! Them Greeks missed the heart of it, but this keeps it warm and close. [john] I’ll reflect, Michael. If this “singular present” means God’s eternity meets us relationally, it enriches my view. In my commentary on Revelation 21, I note God’s presence with us is the consummation of all promises. His unchanging nature Malachi 3:6, “I am the Lord, I change not” grounds this ongoing joy, ensuring it’s no fleeting whim. Yet, I’d ask: does His foreknowledge of our eternal state enhance, not diminish, this two-way bond? [paul] John, I’d say yes and Mike, this lifts my wings! In Ephesians 2:7, I wrote of “the coming ages” where God shows “the immeasurable riches of His grace.” That’s not a one-sided show it’s Him with us, forever unfolding. Relationships like mine with the Philippians praying, weeping, rejoicing (Philippians 1:4) mirror what’s comin’. The “I AM” wants us, not just our applause 2 Corinthians 6:16, “I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” That’s eternity’s pulse! [mike] That’s it, Paul eternity’s pulse! John, His foreknowledge doesn’t flatten it; it deepens it He knows every step of this forever dance and still delights in it. Dr. McGee, this ongoing relationship does it preach? [dr] Like a hallelujah chorus, Mike! Folks need to hear this God’s not done with us at the pearly gates; He’s startin’ somethin’ eternal. Zephaniah 3:17 “He will rejoice over you with singing” that’s Him enjoyin’ us too! It’s a sermon that sticks! [john] I’ll assent, Michael: if Ongoing Sovereignty frames eternity as God’s present, relational reign, it glorifies Him. Hebrews 13:8 “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and today, and forever” secures it. [paul] And I’d end in worship Romans 11:36, “To Him be glory forever!” An ongoing relationship with the “I AM”? That’s our forever joy. [mike] Wow, guys this seals it! Ongoing Sovereignty makes our eternal relationship with God a living, two-way street not a Greek one-way stare. Thanks for this journey it’s been epic! Let’s call it here, but the conversation’s just beginning in eternity. Amen? Thanks Everyone for taking the time to listen to this virtual podcast with people from different parts of History, Please Like and subscribe and leave us your comments below of who you would like to be added to the virtual interview.