Of course, the full automatic coffee machines now, they can make a really good espresso where in the past it was really not good. So there's development going on there, although I have to say that in my view of looking at other technologies, copies far behind still. It was kind of catching up, but I think it's still far behind because using a Bluetooth to connect the grind to coffee machine to talk and the coffee machine tells the grinder what to do. I mean, this is just like 2000 technology.
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Check the show notes for contact details to be a part of these experiences. Welcome to the Daily Coffee Pro by Mapper Ford friends and your host Lee Safar, and this is episode four of a really wonderful five-part series. With Samo from Zor, the Zurich University of Applied Sciences, we are talking about what is real innovation in coffee, and in this episode, we are continuing of sorts, the conversation from the last episode. We're going to talk about what is and what isn't innovation in coffee.
Samo, you had been talking to me in our chats on Instagram, where we had been talking about a lot of things that people think are innovation, and people, they're not innovation. Do you have any examples that you want to talk about that are innovation and aren't innovation in coffee? We can talk about a few things. I think the definition of innovation is probably not so clear, because what is innovation, you're innovative by doing something new that hasn't been done before, or you're improving some product.
I think the part here that is crucial is, are you really just replicating something that was already done, and you're selling it as innovation, or are you really innovating? You can always say, this is innovation, because nobody has done this, that way, and marketing part and everything, you know, all together, but in the end, it's just like, yeah, it's an old thing, and you put a new wrap, you wrapped it in a new nice shiny paper, and then you call it innovation. And that's what is luckily, I think not happening so much in coffee, because we have some great innovation in coffee recently, I think. I'm scared to ask you what you mean by that.
What do you think are some of the great innovations? I want to say about, I will not go to specific, I would mention Fields, where I think it has been really big change that happened, and I would like to point out the grinders field, for the coffee grinders, because if you take a coffee grinder from like 2015, they looked like 50-year-olds, 60-year-old devices, right, with a fantasy display, which was not even like super modern, put on the grinder, and that's fine, because grinder is a mechanical device that is good, they can make their job very good, right? But what is really, I think, a really curious thing in innovation that happened in coffee, I think it's a really great phenomenon to show how our industry is very flexible and very, yeah, does listen to other people in a way that the grinder innovation was triggered by the home grinder market, especially during the COVID times when people moved their coffee drinking to home, so many new home grinders appeared on the market. There was another new thing that there would be grinders for home, there were better quality, there were a few before, but really there was, I see a huge boom of people making a lot of different new grinders for home, grind-by-weight technology was becoming more and more popular, a lot of testing of different materials, different sizes, geometries and so on, and what I think it's really interesting here is that it moved from the home market to the commercial equipment, and not twice versa, because the commercial equipment was kind of always a bit more traditional with the grinders, and they were not really innovating, and there was maybe one innovation for every decade in the grinders' segment, and now suddenly they saw that the home grinders were maybe even producing better coffees than some of the commercial grinders, and they need to catch up.
A lot of people talk about how incremental is the difference between year-on-a-year or model-to-model innovation with regards to grinders and espresso machines, and it seems like every espresso machine manufacturer is coming up with a new model almost every year based on which expo they want to launch at. How incremental have you seen the improvement from the grinder sector, let's say, let's say over the last, since COVID? I think it's a really significant difference, I think. I think there's aspects of grinding that were just taught that's okay, it works, and that's too good to have a grinder.
I know testing grinders back in the day was, you put small beans in, okay, grinds, you put large beans in, okay, grinds, you put the light roast in, it does the job, you put dark roast, okay, it goes on the market, it was really just like that, there was just really engineering and not really developing innovating in terms of the actual beverage. Now this, through the specialty, home barista scene, and the home brewer scene, it got connected back that the grinder manufacturers saw that actually they need to think about the flavor of coffee, about the handling of grinder, how to clean the grinder, some grinders from 15 years ago, we just really opinion the clean, you had to take like a one-hour job to clean the burst inside, because it was so complex to disassemble, and that's I think a lot of changes happened pretty quickly. With the coffee machines, it has also happened, but I think the coffee machine still is waiting for a big change to happen. The coffee machine is still, it's developing much more incrementally, and the big change is still on the way.
And what role do you think that one of my favorite topics to talk about at the moment is the role that automation and AI is going to play in how this sector of the market is going to accelerate? What role do you think that that's going to play in innovation? It's, of course, the bad role of the AI to just write on the top of the machine that it's doing AI and it's not doing anything, which we did. I expect that's going to happen a lot.
That will happen, that is happening, and because always the question is the quality of the data, if you don't have the quality of the data to help, that the AI can help to solve your problem, then you don't need AI, because whatever you're going to do with this information, that you're using it to do a process, it doesn't help. But we're seeing some things developing that are more into regards to automation, that are, you know, you go to shows and you see nice concepts, like connectivity between the grinder and coffee machine, like, of course, the fully automatic coffee machines now, they can make a really good espresso, where in the past it was really not good. So there's development going on there, although I have to say that in my view of looking at other technologies, copies far behind still. It was kind of catching up, but I think it's still far behind because, you know, using a Bluetooth to connect the grinder to coffee machine to talk and then the coffee machine, it's not exciting.
It tells the grinder what to do. I mean, this is just like 2000 technology, like it's not really 25, you know, it's really, it's really just, yeah, there was, or maybe there's still not is demand for these solutions. And that's why companies are not doing it, maybe. That's why maybe innovation is lagging also in this respect because there is no demand for innovation.
And the question is, is it needed, you know, many things are cool, but then is it needed or not? I think it is. Or maybe people don't know that they need it, but they need it. Well, I guess it depends on where you are in the, in the supply chain, right?
And I think what's interesting is as well, we look at what's happening at Origin with regards to the coffee crisis, they're trying to find other ways to build a revenue stream that connects them to their farm. So what we're seeing is a lot of coffee roasteries and cafes popping up at Origin. And as that happens, I'm really interested to see what role the technology with regards to espresso equipment is grinders, you know, brewing equipment, whether it's espresso or filter coffee, based on culturally how they want to drink the coffee at Origin, I'm interested to see how Origin builds a relationship with technology. And if they're going to say, no, no, we don't need that much fancy equipment, or whether they say we want all the fancy equipment, because we're going to have a vertical integrated business, I think that's going to be an interesting thing to track with regards to innovation and coffee.
Yes. It will be interesting. Although I think there's a, there's a big difference between when you talk about fancy equipment for the industry processes and fancy equipment for like brewing equipment or coffee machines. I'm talking about brewing equipment.
I'm talking about, yeah. So if a coffee farm, because like I said, there's coffee, coffee cafes and roasteries, so consumption is, is deeply on the rise at different origin countries that weren't before prioritizing that. They were exporting all of their coffee because they could make more money out of it. And now what they're realizing is, if I keep some of my coffee here with me, and I open a cafe and I open a roastery, I may be able to subsidize and build a better business model for myself if I'm vertically integrated.
I think the, yeah. Why not? I mean, that's, of course, it's a good idea. The issue that we see is education to start these parts of business, you need to know what to do, right?
If you do roasting, you need to know how to roast packaging, there's a lot of things. I mean, it's not always, you could just start. Well, they could bring somebody from it, right, but also, these jobs, a lot of these jobs are going to go away in consuming countries. You think so?
They may decide. I know so. Yeah. I've spoken to the corporates who are building the business models that are going to see this go away.
And when you look objectively at what the businesses that are growing aggressively right now, I would say that people who have not been paying attention are going to get a rude awakening when they realize that the way the coffee is going to be consumed in the future is not going to be anything close to the way that the business models are built right now. I think that the next 10 years is going to be aggressively transitional time for coffee. And I think that we're all going to be shocked at how little Gen Z and Gen Alpha want to consume coffee and that puts a time on a timer on how long the current coffee model is going to be appropriate. That's a good, um, made me think, yes, but whatever people are saying to this is, um, I think translating what Gen Z does now and what they will do in 10 years, it's also very risky, uh, risky thing to do because I just try to look at me, you know, when I was a student and, um, and, uh, you know, after studies went to go for a beer, I would not say coffee because it's biased, but let's put beer.
I was fine with the cheapest possible lager that I could find, right? Right. But today I want a nice beer and I hope that I hope that this, what everybody's afraid of Gen Z not caring about coffee is not generational, but it's age related. They need some more time to grow, to start, appreciate the product, uh, taste attributes as in coffee and the, the social part that is, you know, uh, small specialty grocery, single origins and so on.
Not only go to this, but everybody's talking about no Gen Z wants this funky sweet drinks with a lot of flavor and, uh, milk and, uh, iced coconut lata and things like this. So, um, the reason I go ahead, yeah, no, no, no, you can continue. So, so there's a lot of layers to why Gen Z, uh, isn't into coffee and, and let's go. What's the first way you started drinking coffee?
Oh, next cafe? No, no instant coffee? No, not instant. No.
I think it was, I don't remember, um, I was not a regular coffee drinker, so I need to think about what would be, I think it was probably a cappuccino at a coffee bar, because I was not a regular coffee, so I went just out for a coffee and it was a cappuccino. I, my generation, I'm quite a few years older than you, but I started drinking instant coffee to sugars, milk at university, maybe even earlier than that, right? And most people in my generation, they gateway into coffee was instant coffee, whether it was Nescafe or Macona or whatever it was, I'm a Gen X. And it was something that was very trendy and everybody did it.
Everyone's house you went to, you had, and you asked for a coffee, you got it this way. In the Arab world, if you got a coffee, it was a very specific way, but it's a part of our culture. And, uh, whether that culture is in Australia and you're drinking it with your friends or with your family, right? But it was a cultural norm.
Jen, millennials, same thing, Gen Z have been introduced into an era of coffee where deforestation is connected to coffee, and they are incredibly conscious of consuming anything that is connected to deforestation. And for them, there is a visceral, uh, stigma to them of drinking coffee because of this. And of course, we all know that when you start looking at it, the same thing with matcha, the same thing with sugar, the same thing with all of these things, but they were marketed, coffee equals deforestation. This is our first list.
And because they haven't acquired a nostalgic relationship with coffee, like I still dream of having an ex-cafe with two sugars and cream, right? It's, it's a nostalgic kind of thing. They have that relationship with the cloud matcha. I don't know.
That's true. The matcha is taking over coffee. It's their coffee. Yeah.
So the innovation that's happening in the cafe is determining how I think and what I'm observing, I think it's going to, in the future, turn people away from coffee. It may not turn them away from the cafe, but the cafe will adapt and coffee will not be the number one thing that Gen Z are drinking when they're in their 30s and 40s and 50s and beyond. That's, yeah, maybe not in the cafe, but I think the home home drinking segment, home coffee drinkers, it's, uh, if I understand the data correctly, it's still growing a lot. So, so it means that now the Gen Z are also getting into this because they're at the age that they start to buy the equipment.
Of course, I don't know what the data is. I, what I can say is what I observed is in the developed markets. And again, I don't know how, how it is elsewhere, but I see that there's still growth of the number of specialty coffee shops that are, um, that are open. I mean, for sure, in some places, as I've told, but at least here in central Europe, we still see a growth and even in the most developed markets, like I was two days ago, I came from Prague from the coffee festival there and it's, I think the most, like the most intensive specialty coffee market you can find in the world.
Maybe I'm wrong, but it's just the amount of specialty coffee. There is anywhere where you are in the city, even if you go a bit out from the center, it's just, uh, insane. And, uh, one barista told me that if he has a queue of two people, um, the third one will not, it's a busy day. Yeah, no, the third one will not, uh, will not come there because two minutes walk further, there's another specialty for coffee place.
And they know they can get another coffee there. And that the people that go to the cafes, they don't go primarily to coffee because it's so, yeah, you cannot distinguish yourself as a cafe just by coffee. It's not enough. The vibe culture is really, yes, the vibe culture is number one.
Then you have the food, then you have this, then you have the match as you said, you have, you know, are they starting to do the signature drinks and so on. So it's, it's much more than only coffee. Yeah. Where do you think that the innovation is going to be in coffee next?
Oh, from the, yeah, I think, is there room left to innovate? Yes, of course there's room to innovate. I think that what is going to be next is something that I'm not so fun, but it's coming and it will be here. It's for sure alternative coffees is one thing that, you know, you're talking about deforestation.
People are so, uh, so much environmentally conscious and aware about this. Um, that, uh, it starts people talk about it and it will, it will come in this coffee, this products, even if they don't taste like coffee or right now, none does really taste like coffee. Some are close, some are far apart. They are, um, becoming part of the industry.
I myself as subjectively, I'm a purist. I like pure coffee, but objectively as a scientist, I can say that innovation is coming from there as well and it will be there. Even now with this coffee festival that I was, um, I noticed that there was a chicory coffee being offered at the festival, a mushroom coffee. That was part of the, yeah, yeah, that was part of part of the festival dedicated to maybe 5% of the stands dedicated to these other products.
And there was a huge queue for the macha, of course. Um, of course. And other products, I was surprised that there was also quite some interest. You know, uh, it's really interesting you raised that.
Um, I'm vegan, uh, please don't judge me folks, uh, but I've been vegan for more than 20 years now. And what was really interesting was to watch the fake meat, um, kind of revolution happen, right? And I love the taste of meat. And so I tried some of those fake meats and I thought it was very interesting to watch whether people would adopt that or not.
They were fine in the beginning and everyone thought it was going to be the latest craze, but when they started to realize that this is pretending to be something that it's not, people are better, like they completely abandoned it. And now those things are going away, like they're losing huge investment money, their share prices, tanking, uh, dropping in production, et cetera, et cetera. The alternative milk craze, though, very different, like that took off and has continued to take off. Um, but it wasn't, yes, it was sort of pretending to be something that it's not, but it wasn't saying we are cows milk without the cow.
It's saying we're almond milk, we're an alternative. This, uh, some are marketing like that, what you say, but others are not. But I agree that it's a different product. It's a different product, right?
Like, so, and so when I think about what you're saying, cause I too, I'm thinking a lot about this, um, you know, pretend coffee and, uh, you know, a lot of people come to me and say, we want to come on your podcast and talk about our lab grown coffee and I'm never going to allow that to happen. Uh, and I've got no problem with being transparent about that. But I wonder if the consumer that does have a relationship with coffee, I wonder if they're going to react the same way that vegans reacted to fake meat, or are they going to react the way that they reacted to alternative milks? That fascinates me with regards to innovation because we, I, you and I both hope that they react the same way that vegans reacted to pretend meats, but we don't know.
Well, I, I haven't, I can put a different perspective to this because with this fake meat, actually, um, I've not followed so much. How is, how is the market and how is doing? Uh, but what I know is that there was one product, one company, which they shared thinking as I pretty much assume which one can be, which products were very mediocre, but they were very, very much pushing, uh, their brand to the market, aggressive marketing, taking over competition and with a mediocre product. And people associated all the products on this fake with them.
And that's where the risk is also an alternative coffee, because in the meat, I know that there was a product which was extremely innovative and not just a bunch of ingredients, as most of them are, there's, there's, there's one which is extremely innovative that had flavor science behind and was, um, and that is really high tech product. Um, and it really tasted like real meat, also in taste, and just the consistency was also not far. And I don't know how, how they are good or not now from the, you know, how big they are on the market, but I assume that it's because people associated mainly the product with mediocre and they were like, yeah, uh, it's fake, it's anyway, not good. It's not really like the real thing.
So I will not, uh, not eat it. And that's maybe what we are, should be aware with alternative coffee. If the most popular brand that comes to the market is not really like coffee, then the people will be, uh, not, uh, so fond of this product. So the starting point is important in innovation.
When, when the first product to market determines what comes after that, right? Yeah, it really determines it really creates an impression of the brand and the product. And then like now when we see that the innovation is, uh, especially when companies have VC money and high pressure to make sales and innovation takes time. These things just don't go together, right?
So there's too much pressure to get onto the market. Uh, but the product is not really quite there yet. And then it goes to the market and it's not as good. And that's where we have the risk.
And it's in the alternative coffee we see in the same thing. There were some products promising huge changes in the market and, uh, they're not even on the market or they're, they're on the market, but nobody, nobody buys them. Last question for this episode. When somebody comes up, actually the mice that we were at together, do you remember tasting tiger nut to milk?
Oh, no, I don't remember. So there was, um, there was this one stand that had this alternative milk and it was, it was tiger nut to milk and it was so good. And I remember thinking at the time, do we really need another alternative milk? And so when it comes to innovation in your mind, is too much innovation still innovation?
Um, I think it's still innovation. If, even if we've got 50 different alternative milks, uh, it's a good, good point. Um, but you never, you can never be sure if, if you don't try, maybe there's one, one that will just be so much better than other 50, you know, it's just like, we have so many roasteries. Uh, why, why, I'm not sure that we need another one.
I don't think that we need that. I mean, either it's your passion that you want to have a roastery or you want to make another milk or you just hope that you find something that, that other people have not thought about it and you, uh, and you're just lucky that you found it. Maybe sometimes maybe we're all missing some blatantly obvious thing that, uh, that's, that it's out there and, uh, somebody will find it and we'll just nobody sees it from the millions of people in the industry. Who knows?
Who knows? I keep, and that brings us to competitions. What are you going to say? So yes, uh, no, let's, let's keep, keep the competitions as the next topic of the innovation.
Perfect. So join us for the final episode of this series, folks, where we're going to talk about, we're going to ask the question, are coffee competitions where the innovation happens in coffee? Uh, and I am sure I am a thousand percent sure you don't want to miss this final episode. So drain us for that.
Peace, love and peanut butter. Have an amazing rest of your day. This episode is part of a five part series produced by Mapper Forward. Check the full playlist and guest details in a show notes as well as how you can support our work in the coffee industry.
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