Look, there is a problem. People are saying by 2050, there will be no coffee, maybe closer to 2050. Yeah, 2050 is, we're dreaming if we think that if we keep going the way that we're going, that we're going to have coffee at 2050. They say that if we're lucky, we have 20 harvests left.
If we're lucky. That's really scary. And we've seen it. It's not something that we heard.
People are saying we are seeing it. We've had commitments of one container from one farmer came up to us and saying, look guys, I was only able to produce 40 bags. Can you imagine? Marshall, are you serious?
40 bags? 300 bags to 40 bags. Can you imagine? Wow.
So that's significant. That is an issue because it was rain, it was rain, no rain and ed rain and devastated their harvest. This episode is brought to you by Belco. Belco is above all the story of a journey that started in 2008 with a simple intuition.
To truly understand coffee, you have to be closer to the people who grow it. Today, that journey looks like a team of around 80 coffee professionals spread across France, Ethiopia, Colombia and Guatemala, agronomists, quality specialists, logistics experts and buyers. All united around three core values, sustainability, quality and transparency. Along the way, they realized something essential.
You can't really know coffee from a distance. So they took a bold step and became exporters at origin on the ground year-round. In 2015, Belco opened its first origin office in Ethiopia, the birthplace of Arabica. From Gucci to Yogashefe, Sadama to Jima, they built a sourcing model rooted in presence, learning and trust.
A few years later, they brought that same philosophy to Colombia, working from Gindeor with producing communities in Kalka, Wheeler and Santander. Now, in 2026, Belco wants to open this journey to you. To celebrate 10 years in Ethiopia, they're launching a roasters camp in Addis Ababa. Two days of cupping's, conversations and shared expertise with a second camp in Colombia in June, 2026.
If you're curious, passionate or simply wanted to deepen your understanding of origin work, they'd love to have you join. Check the show notes for contact details to be a part of these experiences. Welcome to the Mapoford Middle East podcast friends. I'm your host, Lee Safar and unfortunately, this is the final episode of what has been a fantastic series with Osama Al-Wam from Roasting House in the Real of Saudi Arabia.
Osama, this has been one of those conversations that I wish the younger version of me who was starting out in coffee got to listen to as like a person in the coffee industry. So she would have just loved hearing from someone like you. So thank you for being that for people who are like us, but like 20 years before what we are. I'm really grateful that we get to have these conversations and inspire the next generation of Osama's to become Osama.
Thank you. I really hope so as well. And you'll hear about it in like three years, four years, someone will come back to you and say, I heard you on the Mapoford Middle East podcast and I did this and I did this and I did this, which will be really great. So folks, in this episode, in this series, we're talking about the challenges of running a business in the Middle East.
In this episode, we're talking about what the opportunities are that exist for the future of specialty coffee in this industry and how do we create a robust ecosystem? We are in a time where, I guess, there's a coffee crisis that exists to start with. Getting coffee into this region is challenging at the moment because of geopolitical issues, but also because it's hard to grow coffee right now. And that is not just going to be a 2025 problem.
Growing coffee is getting increasingly more difficult because of climate change. And so as those things become more challenging and the uncertainty of what's happening on a geopolitical level, as well as the financial ecosystem, economic ecosystem on a global level, we've got things like EUDR, the European Union deforestation regulation comes in at the end of 2025 and coffee is something that's on that list. All of these things are making coffee a challenging endeavor around the world. In great challenge, exist great opportunities.
And the opportunities lie in solving problems. So when we look at this, Osama, where do you think the greatest opportunity is going to lie into the future, given what's going on? That's a very good question. I think there are what's happening in our part of the world, especially in Saudi right now, is the opening up of tourism to a huge level.
So we're seeing a great number of hotels being open, great number of companies being established, great number of expats moving into Saudi Arabia. So this means the the price is getting bigger essentially and people need more coffee. Now, how do you find more coffee or how do you still continue to buy coffee, let alone find more coffee? The challenge that we need to address this stage.
And what Saudi Arabia has done is take a proactive approach with the Saudi coffee company, the PIF subsidiary, by looking at Aramco as well in the past that they've done a specific project. And those projects will be to find areas where coffee can grow, good quality coffee, not just in Saudi, with more resistant varieties native to the region or maybe hybrid with successful varieties that have been successful in other parts of the world. But primarily focusing on what's native to make sure that it's something that is not affecting the ecosystem, the environmental ecosystem. And finding solutions to watering and sustainably growing this coffee and harvesting it and picking it and of course processing and logistically moving it.
So this is one of the things but that's not going to feed the entire world with coffee essentially. So in one of the conversations Lee, we had with a group of your friends I think into buy was was with somebody who was working at at varieties or defining varieties that are more resistant to oranges. And when I when we had that conversation, we had that three cups of coffee, three, three cups of coffee each. So it was meant to be, but then we all ended up being overcrowded.
It was great and that discussion is important and everybody needs to be on board and realize, look, there is a problem, but people are saying by 2050 there will be no coffee. They may be closer to 2050. Yeah, 2050 is we're dreaming if we think that if we keep going the way that we're going that we're going to have coffee at 2050. They say that if we're lucky, we have 20 harvests left if we're lucky.
That's that's that's really scary. I mean, we've seen we've we've seen it. It's not something that we heard people are saying we are seeing it with we've had commitments of one container from one farmer came up to us and saying, look guys, I was only able to produce 40 bags. Can you imagine?
Marshall, are you serious? 40 bags? From 300 bags to 40 bags. Wow.
So that's that's significant. That's that is an issue because it was it was rain. It was no rain and heavy rain and then devastated their harvest for this. Is this from Colombia?
That was for myself a lot. Okay. Yeah. That's about it.
But I think things are happening closer to other regions. Well, so Brazil, we've seen last year's a drop of 30 or 40% in Brazil and other countries as well. This year we're hoping we're hoping maybe the sea market is now starting to stabilize a little bit. Maybe come down where it comes to Robosta as well.
So we need to be a child. We need to be more open to the righties that we were too snobby to enjoy. So we need to be more open to this and find ways where we can process that coffee to to be more sustainable but also in part with the flavor profiles that we are looking for and stop messing about with different processing techniques that Oh, now let's get controversial. Focus on focus on that.
I miss when it was flavor and origin flavor other than just process. But there's nothing wrong with experimenting. But I think we need to start focusing on sustainability as an aspect other than exploring new ways to process. You know, there's a case to be made for the fact that these kinds of and I've never talked about this on the podcast.
So this is fun to be able to discuss this. But there is a case to be made that these interesting co-fermented coffees and hyper fermented coffees could be a way of extending the sustainability of a coffee, right? If customers went loving these coffees, it wouldn't even be a part of the conversation. The problem is problem, not problem.
You know, it's up for debate. But because the customers love these coffees, it's a way to take a coffee that would have scored an 82 or even in the high 70s and elevate it to what people would internally in their own cupping labs elevate to an 86, right? It would never score that on a competition table. But they as calibrated people are scoring at an 86 because it has turned a coffee that wouldn't really have ranked before into something that they can now sell and sell a lot of.
So there is a case to be made for the role that co-fermentation, I am vehemently against infused. But co-fermented coffees seem to be a way to help producers start to tap into getting access into a specialty market that they previously may not have been able to get access to before. So instead of throwing away your own quality coffee, the co-fermented, okay, that makes sense. And this is why we need to start as I said, start to be a little bit more accepting in the past and be calibrated in terms of it.
And I suppose identifying the global chalet, the global sort of flavour profiles will support. And I hope to see things like the coffee value assessment tap into things. Right, did you have to ruin it? I hope we have such a great conversation.
It's again an elephant in the world that somebody really needs to tap into. We still believe that there are ways to look at evaluating coffee in a manner which maybe people in Saudi or GCC like this type of flavour profile that in Sweden or Finland don't advise versa. We don't like the flavour profile that's being posted there. So if there is, I wouldn't say a system, there is a way where we can sort of benchmark and I speak on behalf of farmers where we can benchmark.
And that means that we can target different markets with flavours that are suitable to them. Whether it will continue to help support the sustainability of coffee in terms of co-fermentation or not, I hope so. But we need to start really looking at the problem in the ground before the coffee is being harvested. What is causing coffee not to grow?
Okay, environmental impact, why not look at growing coffee in greenhouses? What do we need to make sure that the coffee can still grow in areas or can grow in areas where we are growing to tomatoes when growing mangoes? But this should be the conversation, not the CVA, right? The CVA is a tone-deaf conversation in a time where a crisis exists, where farmers cannot grow coffee.
Why are we talking about the value of coffee from what's in the cup and not what's in the soil? Again, this plays or taps into the area of where there are opportunities or problems to be at, then opportunities. So this is an opportunity where another entity can tap into and look at the problem at its root cause essentially. What is causing coffee not to grow?
And this is why I'm glad I'm blessed to have this ability to grow coffee and assess it. Before the problem, before looking at how to solve the problem after it's been done. So why is the problem being caused? Is it terroir?
Is it soil? Is it water? Is it temperature? Is it climate?
How can we control this or have an ecosystem that helps support this and grow better quality coffee from trees instead of looking at what's being picked out from the trees? But solving the problem is what we need to focus on. So we cannot rely on one entity to do one thing. So we have, this is why I said in the past, we used to say, look, we have this and now we're focusing on what we have as an opportunity as a folks, all in for people to bet.
If you want to jump on this train, the train is moving. Come and join us in this train. Come and see, provide your expertise in this train because we're looking at the root cause of the problem. We're not looking at what's happening afterwards.
What's happening afterwards? People are looking at it. Fantastic. I wish them the best.
Let's look at what's happening now inside and on. And in my opinion, for whatever it's worth to anyone that's listening, the CVA is not looking at the root cause of the problem. It's looking at what should come after we solve the root cause of the problem. Because if there is no coffee, what value can we add?
What value is being created by no coffee? And so the attention is being drawn away from the entire coffee industry to look at the CVA rather than looking at the issues that are happening at origin. And this is my big problem with the CVA. Well, this again, this is where the opportunity arises.
And I'm thankful that we are in the position now, this region of the world to have the enablers and the ground and the soil and the people and the money and the expertise to look at the root cause of the problem and see how we can address it. So again, I invite anybody through your channel, if you allow me, who has the knowledge, who has the well and well power to come and look at what this ecosystem can provide for them. The kingdom is open for business. Saudi has always welcomed people who are dreamy to come and create opportunities and play hand in hand.
And us at the roasting house, we are working closely with the farmers, we're working closely with the with the Saudi coffee company. We are enabling also the farmers. We bought the first cup of excellence cup of excellent unofficial cup of excellence competition that are taking place. We will continue to support these farmers into looking at how they can grow better quality coffee.
So we're not looking far out. We're looking for where we are growing the coffee, the root cause and the origin and to be inclusive really means to work with the areas that you have not looked at in the past. This is where inclusivity is all about. It's all about what's happening on the ground and we don't mind getting our hands dirty and jumping in there and being in the soil.
I have coffee trees here and I look at them as a reminder every day that this is a tree that we need to take care of really. Yeah. Do you guys focus on regenerative agriculture? Can you clarify what is this?
We'll talk about it off air because I think that there's some opportunities for me to introduce you to some some coffee farmers who are working in this field of coffee called regenerative agriculture. And that's kind of removing any kind of the traditional way of farming which is with chemicals and fertilizers and things like that. And it's basically bringing the farming system back to harmony with nature. So that you use things like a biochar which is like a high density charcoal that if you're growing coffee in arid like what's out of that, right?
It holds the water in the ground and it holds the nutrients from the microbiome that's in the soil. So we can talk about it off air because I think that that might be an opportunity. Yes. I know they're experimenting with different soil and I've seen experiments with soil that can hold moisture much better than the current soil that is there.
So I know they're looking at technologies as well on watering and water retention and pulling down and wind sort of directions as but I'm sure they will be welcoming to all ideas globally. They have incredible talent working on this and we will support whichever way possible because that's a mandate on us for the mandate to do not work. If we are to continue being a growing nation then we have a mandate to work on. And we have access to talent and to will to support this with privilege to have this better than some other countries who really want to but don't have the answer.
One of our professors that works with us on these workshops, he works with the Saudi Coffee Company on these kinds of initiatives so there must be some kind of a partnership that's going on there. Okay, as we wrap up this series, Osama, thank you so much but I have one question that is a tradition, it's not a tradition where it's a new tradition that we've been asking people since Yozo or Tukhi came on the podcast recently. When the future version of you comes back and watches this series, this conversation, let's say 20 years from now, what do you hope for him? I hope that he learns that this Osama is so proud of future Osama and that he's going in the right direction.
He really is. Sometimes you question, am I doing things right? Am I doing enough? And sometimes you may be too tough on yourself but when you look back, you realize that you've you realize that the things that you've gone through all the bumps or the hurdles or the challenges and you can only see them if you look back.
But if you continue to not look at what you've done and just focus on the things that maybe you could have done and haven't done enough, then you're not giving yourself enough credit. So I'm proud of you, Osama, I look at the camera, I'm proud of you, continue to do this. I'm proud of you being in the show with, amazingly, there's a lot of fun and continue being you and all the best. I hope that the future version of Lee and the future version of Osama continue to have these really wonderful conversations and I hope that the future version of me has the pleasure of continuing to watch your success.
As we wrap up, Osama, please tell everyone where they can find out more about Roasting House online. So they can follow us on X Instagram, TikTok, at Roasting House SA, one word, Roasting House SA for Saudi Arabia. They can find us on Roasting House dot SA, so www dot Roasting House dot SA. And they can find us in delivery apps in the south in Chinese and so in the eastern province with GCC through our website or through distributors in countries like UAE, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, all the GCC countries and some other parts of the world, including inshallah very soon, Jordan and Shah in Jordan in Arabic, Egypt as well throughout friends in Egypt and we're blessed to have people who appreciate what we do, all the hard work on the coffee that we bring to you that comes from farms we visit ourselves.
In fact, I'm going to Brazil in Shamba next month to what opportunities that are in Brazilian coffee that we can still continue to find good Brazilian coffee at competitive prices hopefully that's fair for the farmers, fair for us and fair for consumers. They can follow me at 01AAWAM and enjoy the trip in Brazil and learn more and I'm here to learn. I consider myself a student of coffee and I hope I was able to give you something that is hopefully rewarding to you. I was inspired at university by Professor of Law.
I emailed in London, I emailed a few offices, law offices in Saudi Arabia and nearby countries and some of them responded, some maybe didn't get the email, didn't respond, but one of them responded, from Dr. Salah Hijayla and Lofehrm and I wanted support in my thesis which was about foreign investment law in Saudi Arabia at the time and he without his support I wouldn't have been able to learn so he didn't give me what I wanted to learn, he gave me the access to the knowledge, he supported me in the thesis, he sent me his book about foreign investment law, he made sure that I learned the information before I was able to write it and this is something that I feel is I owe it to him and I owe it to all students at university, we received quite a questions requests from university students to come and learn about the success story so it's a mandate on everybody who has access to information, information is to be shared, it's to be shared much like what you are doing here Lee, so I really appreciate that you're doing it, nobody of us here is getting paid to do this, we're doing, we feel, we feel it's a mandate much like you do Lee, you invest your time effort and money so I really appreciate this, I'm really appreciate this, sharing information and at the end people will remember you for this and thank you for this and thank you for this and thank you for you and even consult you as well because you are a source of trusted knowledge so thank you very it's my absolute pleasure and once again I look forward to the many times that you're going to come on this podcast and we will have links in the show notes folks for everything that Osama just mentioned so please do go and check it out and engage and Osama will you do us the tradition for the end of the series, have an amazing rest of your day everyone, bye thank you take care, all right this episode is part of a five part series produced by Mapper 4, check the full playlist and guest details in the show notes as well as how you can support our work in the coffee industry, become a premium youtuber subscriber, explore our Patreon and any brands we've partnered with to bring you this podcast, please don't forget to like share and subscribe it really does help us grow our audience