having those real conversations, open conversations, trying to understand each other's reality. And I mean not only are reality as producers where we have to seal the risk that we're having, client and change currency, all the things that we already talked about, but at the same time, understand the reality of the other, of all the coffee balishing, right? Having those conversations is important so that we can redistribute from my point of view the risk that we're having. It's very hard to continue in e-coffee.
Me as a new coffee generation, let's say, it's very difficult to see myself e-coffee if we don't redistribute those risks. And that redistribution of the risk will also only come, sorry, will only come if we have those conversations and we're open to work together and see if we can make this work as an industry. Traditionally, businesses have found new leads at trade shows. But in 2026, that model is changing.
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Check the show notes for all the details and let's conspire to each other's success today. Welcome to the Daily Coffee Pro by mapofouradfriends. I'm your host Lee Safar and this is episode four of a fantastic five-part series with Anadone's from Cafe Permitivo in Kingdio, Colombia. We're talking about the reality of being a small-holder coffee farmer during this coffee crisis and the volatility that all the different layers of volatility that are involved in this coffee crisis.
In this episode, we're gonna be talking about how do we move forward together as value chain partners long-term. And in the last episode, the way that we were talking about pricing and the forces that really invade the coffee industry. They're really kind of, we're talking about how the Japanese yen trade and the things that are happening in the financial markets really end up having second-order effects and third-order effects in the coffee industry. Now, why that's important to how we move forward together is because there needs to be an understanding that there are things that are happening that we have to figure out how to protect ourselves from, because they have nothing to do with coffee.
And those things are only growing in number, in my mind, Anna. We've got, you had mentioned a couple of times through this series, all of the chaos that's happening with geopolitics that none of us could have predicted when we talk about tariffs, when we talk about currency, when we talk about wars all over the world, when we talk about what's happening in America with regards to the immigration stuff that's going on, when we're looking at all of this stuff that's going on, even the Epstein files is having an impact on the coffee industry. All of this stuff, the corporate side of the coffee industry has tools that they can use to protect themselves against this. They also have very, very, very deep pockets that they can last these storms much longer than we can in the independent sector of the coffee industry.
When you look at what is needed in the long term, what do you think are some of the ways that we need to look at the long term so that we can move forward together and solve these problems together? Okay. Well, I'll have to invite this answer really in different layers, okay? So the first layer I'm gonna talk about is, again, having those real conversations, open conversations, trying to understand each other's reality.
And I mean, not only are reality as producers where we have to see all the risks that we're having, climate change currency, all the things that we already talked about, but at the same time, understand the reality of the other year, of all of the coffee balishing, right? Having those conversations is important so that we can redistribute, from my point of view, the risk that we're having. It's very hard to continue in e-coffee, me as a new coffee generation, let's say, it's very difficult to see myself e-coffee if we don't redistribute those risks. And that redistribution of the risk will also only come, sorry, will only come if we have those conversations and we're open to work together and see if we can make this work as an industry, right?
And on the other layer, I will have to talk to coffee producers because we are the ones that are at origin and we are the ones that are directly affected by climate change. And I feel like for a lot of time, we will have been just producers, but we are now entering a new era, let's say, for a new moment where we are more than just producers, we are business owners and we need to see our coffee farms as business. And it's our responsibility to keep on working in different layers of our different aspects of our business. One is going to be, of course, we need to look for better quality so that we can continue through direct trade and to keep on those relationships, that's one.
Second, we need to think about taking care of our planet, if you're not already working on regenerative average culture, it's gonna be very hard to continue doing this for a long time. And third, we need to be more efficient, like that's a must. And we have very high cost because we, I feel like it's only this generation, that's not only this generation, but it's a small percentage of producers around the world that really understand their cost, that really can predict the production, that has data that can gives us more tools to make the right decisions and to have a no-break conversation with all of the rest of the coffee value chains. So I feel like it's our responsibility as well to work in that.
We have a lot of tools that are coming, it's we're a little bit behind of the other side of the world because most of the innovations and technologies and everything has always been on the other side. But I feel like now we're experiencing and we're having more tools that we did before than our father's either and that our grandparents did. In Primitio, we're working with AI now and trying to bring to understand more our cost, to understand where we're putting everything, to predict. And I feel like that's one of the things that we need to come and start looking at.
I don't know if I'm going too far away, but that's- I found some sense. If we're not thinking on AI to help us, if we're not having our data very clear, and if we're not working on being more efficient, it's going to be very difficult to survive for my point of view in a long-term way of doing things. So at the end, I think it's a work of the whole industry, working together. But as producers, we also have to think about ourselves, are we really doing everything to bring our costs down, to be more efficient, to work on innovative things for our farms?
It's a moment for all of us to work together. That only us waiting for the industry to pay us, even though we have always talked about that. And of course, we need a fair price, and no a price that will let us have a revenue and a profitable year or way of doing business, but it's also our responsibility to keep on working and to be more efficient with what we have in our hands. I'd like to add a fourth.
Yeah. You name three there. I'd like to add a fourth. And I say this with the deepest of respect to coffee producers.
It's nobody needs to question how much I love coffee farmers. They are the people I advocate for the most on this podcast. And I say that because what I'm about to say may sound disrespectful, but I'm not at all, I'm just saying what needs to be said. Coffee farmers are going to need to grow up in our industry.
You know what I'm not saying that with any disrespect, but you have given your power away. You have allowed the other side of the supply chain to dictate the terms for too long. And we are at a moment where the next generation of farmers, are having to make very difficult decisions about whether they step into this or not. And as they step into this, if the value proposition doesn't make sense, they're not going to do it.
But there is extreme power in that moment. Because what we are starting to see is the reality of the other side of the supply chain understanding coffee farmers don't have to do this. There isn't, coffee is not guaranteed guys. And I feel as though coffee farmers are starting to wake up to them.
Actually, we have zero fucking industry. If coffee farmers decide, fuck you, we're not doing this anymore. That's right. Yeah, and I love that before I layer that you put it, because that's right, I mean, we need to stop seeing ourselves.
I'm going to talk to the coffee producers, but we need to stop seeing ourselves as, oh, we are the poor part, like we need help from all of the industry. No, like we need to see ourselves as another player, of course, another part that's equally important, even not very important because we are the ones that are producing the coffee or the supply. And when we see ourselves as an equal of all the players that are in the coffee industry, we are able to ask for what we are worth. And no, no, no, not worth.
Tell people what you're worth. Yes, this is where we need to transition to. And anyone who needs any inspiration, just to add something in the end, go and watch Bad Bunny's halftime performance. The fuck you energy that comes in that performance should inspire every coffee producer who thinks that just because you come from Latin America or you come from Africa or you come from an impoverished downtrodden, we've been treated like shit environment that you can't actually show the other side of the supply chain, what your value is, takes an inspiration from Bad Bunny.
It was wonderful. It was so fucking amazing. It was amazing. And I'm not even a Bad Bunny fan.
I am now, but all I could think of when I was watching it was I hope every coffee producer in the world sees this and understands that they can be Bad Bunny too one day, but you know what I mean, right? Like there is a shift in the tide that's happening on a global level in society and in culture. And right now with everything that's happening in supply chains, coffee farmers have an opportunity to, as in the words of Marion Alabaya's just in our monthly discussion group, she said, you know what we have to do as coffee producers? We have to get the courage to hold the line and not sell when we don't want to sell.
We have to absorb the pain of that so that we can actually shift the tide of it. And to add to that, on the other side, to my beloved coffee roasters out there, stop thinking that you're in the hospitality business, you're not in the hospitality business, you are in the commodity business, you deal in commodities and you also need to grow up. You also need to understand what it means to have supply chain partners that are carrying all of this risk. And if you want to grow up and survive this, you need to be worthy of them doing business with you, because let me tell you, Gen Z is not going to fuck around.
When Gen Z actually gets old enough to own coffee farms, they will happily tell you that they will not do business with you if you're not the right partner for them. And that's coming. I cut you off. I'm so sorry about that and I'll please go on.
Sorry that I went on that, right? I feel like, you know, if we want to work together, there's another thing that we have to work on. And it's trying to get the information or if notice is going to be hard and people are going to say, like, of course, we need to do this, but it's we need to educate the final consumer. Like, it's very important.
If we don't do that and they go to a supermarket and they see where they really cheat coffee, and I understand it's difficult for them to go for the ones that it's it costs the double or three times the cheap coffee. But I mean, this cheap coffee is just multiplying the poverty around the world. And it's there's I hate when I see all this really cheap coffee with a lot of greenwashing and like, Oh, this is from I don't want to say any spec from the corporate side of the industry. Yes.
And that's that's just multiplying the poverty around the world. So we need a way and I feel like that's that's a responsibility of all the coffee not only for coffee roasters. It's it's all of us who have to keep on trying to multiply the information and what's really going on. And for me, like I had to make a decision for this year.
I know that I need to go far away from the the the market price as much as I can. And for me is trying to stop selling the most traditional coffee that we have done for all the time. And people sometimes say, Hi, why do you always want to do some these experimentations and do all of these different stuff? You know what it's us looking of course for better quality of course looking for innovation, of course, but it's also us looking for sustainable life.
And I really and I hope that the industry stops talking bad about all this innovation going on in processing and things because it's us trying to look for a better way of life. It's us trying to access to better coffee prices. And I hope that the roasters and that the industry starts to like more those honeys, those natural, those different coffees that are paid in a better in a better, yeah, there is having a better price. Co-fermented coffees, blah, blah, blah.
Yes, this is what we need to grow up, right? We need to stop saying that. Oh, no, coffees that are X, Y and Z experimental, they're not real coffee. Who the fuck said?
Who the fuck said that this should be for you to decide that they're not real coffees? And it's just not okay for people to say you shouldn't buy commercial grade coffee or you shouldn't buy coffee that are co-fermented or you shouldn't buy this, you shouldn't buy that. Bro, you do you and stop sharing your opinion about this shit with the whole world as though you get to decide what real coffee is. We need to grow up.
Yes, I, you know, go ahead. No, sorry, I just wanted to say that. I know what you're saying because I have been speaking a little bit more about co-fermented and inoculated and all of these things that are going on in innovations in processing and the more I talk, the more people want to hear. And I want to speak a little bit about that.
And it's, I know I have friends around here in my community that are doing a beautiful job. It's not easy to do all of these innovations and to do all of these coffee processing. It's not an easy way of doing it, but it's coffee producers, younger generations, taking a farm that doesn't have a great quality anymore, of course, because it's, they inherited a farm that is maybe in a lower altitude. They have to deal with a lot of new things and, but they want to continue because they love coffee and they want to make their business profitable.
And I love to see all of these that's coming on and that it's for me, it's an answer to climate change. It's an answer to high costs, higher costs. It's an answer to what's, it is going on. By hearing a lot of people around the world on the other side who have never had to deal with climate change and how their production goes under 50, 60, 70 percent in some cases.
Like, why are you just speaking and talking about things about what all of the efforts that the people are doing here at Origin that you don't, you don't have to deal with any of these. No idea. You don't have any, any concept of how stressful this, and that's why I get so angry about it. Yes.
Is it's the, it's the same people who are value and competition as though like they're the gladiators and they're the ones who are really driving the industry forward. You've got no fucking idea who's driving this industry. If you think that you are the people who are driving this industry forward, you should go and spend six months on a coffee farm and then you really come to understand how hard it is. And if not for coffee farmers, I should get t-shirts made.
If it wasn't for coffee farmers, we don't have an industry. People seem to think that, no, no, the industry is driven forward by people who win coffee competitions. Again, no disrespect for people who are competing, but you don't get to decide what's real about our industry and what's not. You know, we had last month in January for our monthly discussion group.
The topic was very interesting and it really relates to what you're saying. It was about marketing and branding and whose responsibility is it to take care of the marketing of the coffee and the topic and shout out to Abduby Janney because he ran the conversation in our discussion group. And I was in two minds about whether people would care because I don't decide the topic, the group, like someone will say, I think we should talk about this next month. And he picked it and I thought, I wonder if coffee farmers care to talk about this.
Oh my god, was I wrong? Oh my god, was I wrong? It was such a fantastic conversation. What we realized from it was that coffee farmers think about this a lot.
Who is driving the messaging behind what's happening in coffee and whose responsibility is it? Because if we're talking about high coffee prices and this is where my comment about marketing came from was actually from that conversation, the cost to market coffee as regenerative and talk about it for what it is, whether it's a honey or whether it's a coffee man or whether it's done with regenerative ag or whatever it is. But the cost in time and money to deliver that message is so expensive. That expecting the producer to carry that load as well is backbreaking, absolutely backbreaking.
And what we came to realize is it has to be done by the roaster and the cafe owner. It has to be something that if we're talking about managing risk, messaging and marketing and informing the end consumer and not be the responsibility of the farmer, it just simply cannot. It needs to be something that is taken seriously by roasters and and cafe owners so that the consumer is aware of where we're going. Because if the consumer does not become aware of the impact of climate change on our industry, they're going to continue to assume just like when they look at a stake and they say, you get a stake from a supermarket.
No, an animal gets killed in order for you to have that stake. There is a whole supply chain behind that supermarket, same thing with coffee and if people don't understand that, they're not going to understand when it becomes so unaffordable for them in a luxury product. Because as I said, Gen Z, when they agent a coffee farming, no, they're just going to look at this and say, why should we? Exactly.
So we have very interesting years ahead of us for those who aren't going to participate as partners hand in hand with every stakeholder in the supply chain. So having said that, we've got one episode left and we're going to talk about the future of coffee. So join us for the final episode of this fantastic series with Anna Donaise from Cafe Permitiville. Peace off and peanut butter, have an amazing rest of your day.