If you want to have a long, happy life, you know what you need to do, you need to be in shape, you need to be fit, you need to do the things that make you fit and have fitness, right? Well, what if that is not true, crazy as that sounds? We're going to look into that in today's episode of the movement movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting typically, first, you know, those things are your foundation. And here we break down the propaganda, the mythology, sometimes the outright lies you've been told about what it takes to run or walk or play or hike or in this case, just live to the remainder of your life and to do that, enjoyably and efficiently and effectively.
And I say enjoy it, don't answer it's a trick question, because I know I did, because look, if you're not having fun, do something different, so you are, because if it's not fun, you're not going to keep it up anyway. So why add more stress? We call this the movement movement because we're creating a movement and that we part is something that you and I are involved in. It doesn't take any effort really, I'll tell you more in a second.
The other part, the movement movement is that we're creating this movement around natural movement, letting your body do what it's made to do instead of getting in the way and making life more difficult. I'm Stephen Sashan from Zero Shoes.com, your host of this thing. And all you need to do is really simple, you know, like if you want to go to our website, www.jointhemovementmovement.com, you don't need to do anything to join. There's no membership fee.
There's no membership really. Just like and share, find a previous episodes, subscribe, hit the thumbs up or the bell icon or whatever, you know, basically look, you know, the drill. If you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. Or if you think there's other people, it should be part of the tribe, please subscribe there too.
So like I said in the intro, maybe fitness is not the goal that you should be looking for. And Kyle, please do my favor, tell human beings who you are and what you do and what you said that maybe say that. My name is Kyle Fincham. I am currently traveling across the globe teaching a workshop that I call Infinite Play, which is basically just exploring the mindset of playfulness through the vehicle of movement.
I'm currently in Brooklyn, New York. I'm flying out to Europe next week. Where in Brooklyn are you? I am in Bushwick right now.
I was in Brooklyn a little while ago, and I at every moment was afraid I was going to get a ticket for not having a man bun or some other, some other hip thing that I do not do. Yeah, I used to maybe about 10 years ago, I was totally hip enough for any of the neighborhoods that I fell into, but now I walk out the door and I'm like, I have passed that time. Actually, one of the last time I was in Brooklyn. I was stunned to go by a guy who was selling artisanal pickles $5 each per pickle, five bucks pickle.
Wow. I got back into eating bread when I was back in Europe last year, and the baguettes are like $50 or $2. Right. And here a baguette is like $4 or $5 and it's just from a grocery store or something.
Oh no. Well, everything in around New York has gotten expensive. Lane and I were there two weeks ago, I think, for a board meeting, and I met a couple friends for breakfast and three eggs and toast. I guess how much?
12 bucks. Oh, you're so cute. 18 to 20. Oh.
I think that it hit me in the chest. Yeah, I got a down payment on a piece of pizza. Wow. So it is, I mean, pizza used to be a buck, buck and a half.
And now, you know, 375. Anyway, enough about the price of food in and around the great city of New York. So into the place, say more about that and how that relates to what I kind of teased this with about fitness and maybe it's not the best thing for a best build to have for the thing that you need. Yeah, I think that, you know, we're kind of led to believe that like if we're strong, if we're flexible, if we're mobile, if we have a whole bunch of moves and techniques that it's synonymous with being able to move through life playfully.
And I just kind of believe that's not the case that in some ways kind of getting caught up in the systems or the boxes or the definitions can actually be this great limitation for us because life is full surprises. Life is random. Life is accidents. And to move through it playfully means to be welcoming and surprised and welcoming of the randomness and welcoming of the accidents.
And maybe sometimes that means we're strong in certain areas, we're kind of flexible in certain areas and we have some moves, but having kind of the full collection of all is not the same as being able to move through life the way the rest of the animals and the rest of nature navigates life. And that's what I like to explore in my workshop. Fascinating. So then we're using word move in maybe two different ways.
One about the movements involved in fitness activities, for example, being able to run, being able to lift, being able to climb, you know, whatever. But another, when you talk about moving through life, there's more of a metaphorical component to that. So can you kind of pick that apart a little for me? So I maybe you can do that by explaining something more about what somebody would do if they were joining you for a workshop.
Totally. Well, I mean, ultimately, at the end of the day, movement is not just an activity that we do. Movement is our way of communicating with the world. We just have this privilege of happening to not use our full library of communication skills because everything is kind of convenient and sanitized at this point.
But movement, you know, worked in relation with our senses and we would use that to kind of move through life in terms of how we communicate with other people, how we communicate with the spaces that we move through. And that's why we have this kind of amazing potential for movement. So in my workshop, I'm not so much caught up in like kind of distilling down all the different movements and breaking into what we can do. I'm kind of interested in presenting scenarios where we're willing to get lost, right?
And be okay with that rather than having to Google map everything. Interesting. So I'm going to ask you this question, but I have to tell you a story before you answer the question is given that and given that this is the movement movement podcast, I'm going to ask you to share something that people, so people have an experience of what you're saying rather than just hearing it and maybe kind of, you know, I'm doing this lately where I kind of go home and I talk my head a little like 45 degrees because my wife and I for the first time in our lives are not dog owners. So we have a dog that doesn't have like what?
But here's the story I'm going to tell you that maybe there's, I mean, it sounds like there may be an analog and I want you to tell me if it's true. When I was in my 20s, at the advice of a crazy girlfriend, I found myself in a group therapy group, not suggesting the group therapy means you're, I mean, it's a fine thing, but I went because she told me to and ultimately didn't get a lot out of it. But there was this one great moment where I realized that everybody was sitting in the same seat or more accurately, there's one person in particular who always sat in the same seat. And I happened to show up at the group one time earlier than anybody else.
So I sat in quote, Hersey and she came in and told me to move and I said, why? She says, that's my seat. I said, it's AC and she got went crazy. And when all the groups there, you know, there's a big kerfuffle about who's anywhere.
And I remember at one point, she said, I thought this was a safe space. I said, I said, it's safe enough to discover that you can sit anywhere and be okay. So am I way off base with that story? No, I mean, a story that I like to tell is a one that a friend of mine shared with me about his time in college and Kate and I about the same age like late 30s.
So it was before there were Google Maps, which I referred to before. And he talked about how he and his friends would take road trips often during like the spring breaks and summer vacations and things like that. And he says that when he looks back on that time and those adventures they went on, the things that he remembers most and things that are most special to him are the times that they got lost. And we have done this really great job of like making everything fast and efficient, right?
But at the same time, we've limited getting lost. And the magic I think might be in the getting lost. I, you know, there's a variation of that. I remember having drive when I was living in your city, this is 30 years ago, I had to drive to somewhere outside of Spain and Pennsylvania.
There's a camp that I went to as a kid. They were having a 50th anniversary party and I had to go. And I remember looking at a map, if people remember what those are, an actual map, like in a big, big, atlasy kind of book thing. And I, what was really fun is the maps had roadside attractions that were clearly marked.
And in the middle of Pennsylvania, you know, there was a wild animal preserve or it's not like a reptile in some other strange animal sanctuary or something. And it was like all these wacky things. And I built a trip around everything that was off the main roads to just go from one of these things to another to another to another. And it was totally ridiculous and delightful.
And you just can't do that anymore. I mean, not by looking at a, you know, like, not looking at Google maps. Right. And I think that the larger repercussions of this, this way is that it makes us think that, like, we can kind of control and be certain of everything and we can limit our loss and we can prevent surprise.
So that ultimately, when those things do happen, we kind of panic. We're not really prepared to like be with surprise. We're not really prepared to be with lost when it's totally inevitable, you know, like it's going to happen. It's going to trip.
And so you're suggesting, and I'm going to get back to get something to share or share something with people. You're suggesting, it sounds, that the things that we're currently doing for fitness are antithetical, that idea of just being open to what's happening and able to respond accordingly, whether it's sort of a mental or physical movement. Yeah, I think that the things that we're doing now are fine if we also do the other thing. You know, like, there's a lot of like, there's a lot of precision and not a lot of romance.
And I think that we can. You know, there's a great book called, I think it's just called Muscle about a guy who moved to New York when he was in this graduated college or maybe grad school and got a job in publishing and felt really insecure in New York and felt kind of at the whim and mercy of New York. And so we got into bodybuilding. And it's a really interesting book about that goes back and forth chapter by chapter between what it was like to train to become a bodybuilder and what was going on in his mind about this and how he was able to or not able to roll with the punches as it were.
And it's a fascinating, fascinating book because it's really describing exactly what you're talking about. But, you know, I mean, like, you know, I was part of the CrossFit world in a certain degree for a short period of time. And like, irony is we sit around telling people like we want them to be able to think outside the box, but the gym is actually called a box. My first time that I was in a CrossFit box and someone had me go through one of the workouts, you know, they're yelling, like, go, go, go.
And I literally turned to one point and said, you're yelling. There's not going to be any motivation. I mean, I'm self motivated. I'm curious to see how I can do the next time.
But there's no prize money at the end of this. There's not a real competition. I just don't care that much. If it's fun, I'll do it.
It is not fun. I'm not going to do it. Well, also, you know, competition is just so of this part of the world at this day and age. And, you know, I think we kind of celebrate it and make everything in like the, we think that it's the way.
But I think that we've made it really far by also being quite cooperative. And I think that things like play are our places to kind of explore our potential for cooperation. And it's a powerful tool. But I think that in our world, in the way we kind of exist now, it's maybe it's a bit of like a privilege to get to kind of exist in a very competitive setting all the time.
But I'm not so sold on it. Well, I can tell you from my experience, there's two things. One, as a competitive sprinter, I love the competition because it for a couple reasons. One, I have a naturally competitive streak in me.
So it gives me a place to indulge in that in a way that's entertaining. It also gives me a reason to get out on the track because I'm imagining these things that I want to accomplish because I enjoy doing them. And so it gives me a bit of a focus. When I was doing physical things where there was no end result, some of the things I was doing, it's like, oh, this is more pain than gain.
So I'm not gonna I'm not gonna do it. But I like that the flip side is I will say that the more I've come to understand what big shoe companies have been doing for 50 years, and how it's been hurting people, and how we're hearing from people daily saying, Oh my god, this natural movement thing changed my life. It's brought out a competitive streak in me on the business side that I didn't really know that I had. And I it's engaging in a certain way, but I can't say it's enjoyable.
And the cooperation thing is intriguing because I'm like, I'm friends with most of my competitors, because we are all trying to do the same thing we need to play together in some way. So it's a really interesting kind of balance between, it's like, one of the tracks, some guy will usually say, you know, like really intense, like, good, good, like the race, good, good, good, good, good race. And I'll say, hey, dude, there's no prize money, there's no sponsorship, have fun, hopefully you won't get injured. Oh, and by the way, I totally want to kick your ass.
And I say that kind of casually because it really is that casual, I will or I won't who cares, it doesn't really matter in the long run. I rumor has it by wife won't leave me if I'm second in a hundred meters. So all right, I mentioned this five times or so, so now we're gonna put you on the spot. So it gives people something that they can experience from what we've been talking about, which again, a little can be a little out of note.
I'll give two things, and one of them I kind of already mentioned, but I'll give two. The first point is very much a movement task. And it's one that I use often, but grab a ball any kind, like a tennis ball or a lacrosse ball, or whatever you've got, lay on the ground, get onto the floor on your hands and your feet or your hands and your knees, I don't really care. And maybe move just an opposition around on the floor and just keep the ball moving, keep the ball moving only using your hands and your feet.
And then if your hands and your feet have seemed like you've become competent, maybe use other parts of your body to keep the ball moving like your shoulder or your elbow or your wrist or your chin back of your head, right? And just keep the ball moving. That's a really good question that someone's doing that to wonder every now and then what part of my body haven't I used? It's also a good opportunity to drag in your friend or your roommate or your spouse and ask them to tell you what part of your body to touch the ball with.
Oh, that's a good one too. I, this reminds me, I've been known to do things at workshops where they say, you know, find a safe space to do something I've been known to walk out the door. Because I'm just thinking what's the most, what's the most outrageous way I could do this thing that they're asking? What would be the one thing that no one thought to do and then it's like, you know, leave?
I mean, I'm kind of curious to see what happens. That's a good one. So, and was the first one just go somewhere and get lost? Yeah, I mean, like walk out your front door and get down your bike or drive your car or ideally take a walk in zero shoes or barefoot, but don't turn on Google Maps and start heading in a direction, you know, and then when you get to an intersection where you normally would have turned right, turn left and just see what happens, you know, go get lost because both of these things are being playful.
Both of these things are kind of the willingness to be surprised and kind of bask in the surprise. And, you know, getting places efficiently and always trying to treat things as if they're like a game to win is when we start limiting surprise, right? Because as you know, as a competitor, when you're in competition mode, like you want as few surprises as possible, right? You don't want to trip on a stone.
You don't want to like feel something that's like you want to as much as you can control. You want to control for like that moment in time. But when we start doing life that way, when we start trying to limit surprise and try to only do things that we're competent at, right? When the things happen that we're not competent at or when surprise unfolds or when the randomness happens, we're just not prepared, right?
I mean, we get rigid in the way that we respond to surprise. We're not welcoming up surprises to try to like defeat, destroy, control, submit, whatever that thing is, as opposed to dance with it. Well, you know, it's funny about the structure competition as a prize. My favorite part of the race is the moment between set and the gun going off, because the whole technique is to be ready to be surprised.
It's like, you can't be ready to go. You have to be, you kind of get set and ready to go. And then you just have to be surprised. And it's actually my favorite thing when someone literally does surprise me, they come up behind me and I don't hear them because it's the most unadulterated, and I never thought of this way, unadulterated experience, just like jumping in the air and being shocked.
I just totally, totally enjoy it. Yeah. So I use this quote often. So the reason I call my workshop Infinite Play is because I read this book, Finite and Infinite Games by James Carson.
And there's a famous quote that he has in there. And it's something like, to be prepared against surprise is to be trained to be prepared for surprise is to be educated. I like it. So when you're doing the workshops, what kind of people show up, what are they expecting and what surprises them when they go through it?
I think when I first started teaching, there was a lot of people who came from movement, like kind of like the big M movement that seems to exist in the world now because that's where I was found. Like movement, culture movement, I've been studying with Edo Portol for a really long time. So a lot of people have movement facilities that hosted me and had me. And they're amazing.
And then a lot of more recently, I think it's starting to transcend a little bit. Like the gaps are getting a little wider, the demographic is changing. It's a lot of different people, it's not necessarily people who come from movement, but who are maybe interested in movement philosophically. But in the end, I think people are quite moved.
And I don't mean physically moved, but some people, I mean, there have been a couple people who have been moved to tears, there are people who are kind of taken by the experience, because ultimately, we're really practicing communicating, we're practicing being with people, right? We're practicing that potential we have for deep listening, but that means to deep listen, with a group of people is also to feel listened to. And I think sometimes people are taken by what it feels like to be listened to, because maybe in this world, there's not a lot of being listened to happening. So I think that it can be enriching and maybe so far as to healing for some people.
But it's a special experience. I think it's far from what anybody imagined. So often when people ask, what should I expect of it? Well, whatever you imagine, it's not that.
And then when you imagine it again, it's not that either. Well, speaking of things you mentioned, you've mentioned movement as communication a couple of times. Can you dive into that a little bit? Because I'm not quite clear how that works, or what you mean when you say that?
Right. So before we could speak with words, right? We had sounds and we moved our body to try to communicate. So even just in human interaction, we were moving our bodies to help navigate communication.
But also human to human, without even trying to communicate, our nervous systems are having a dialogue. So that's what like co-regulating is, right? Like I'm noticing your posture, your breath, your eyes, and I'm not thinking about it. It's not cognitive.
Like this is something that's happening just in my own nervous system. And these are all different movements and things that are happening in our body, right? But then on a more kind of thinking about how we move through the world, like on an individual level, I need a body that's deeply communicative, right? I want joints that communicate with one another from the ground up, right?
So that they move like a symphony, right? So that they're creative, adaptable and cooperative with one another instead of like rigid and isolated. Same thing goes with people. I want to be able to be creative, adaptable, and cooperative, which means to communicate with another person.
So that when we walk into a scenario and you and I have like never done anything before, whether it's dancing together, fighting together, playing together, or talking with one another, I have the tools to kind of like move with that. And the same thing goes for the spaces that we move through, right? I need the same qualities of walking to new and novel spaces and scenarios and situations so that I can have my dance or my play or my dialogue with whatever that is offering me. The image that I got when you were saying that is of someone or most of us not thinking, well, it's going to sound weird.
I'm hacking out in real time. Not thinking about how our very subtle moves, just the way we stand, the way we sit down, the way we stand back up, the way we take that first step, people don't think about that as a form of communication typically. Although the flip side in my thinking, I'm flashing back to when I was like in second or third grade, and I remember or at least I have a memory, seemingly a memory of walking down the hall of my elementary school, practicing different ways of walking, because I wanted to look like something I saw in a comic book or whatever it was. But we're not typically thinking about, we get these patterns, we get these patterns, we get lucky, and we don't think about how they may be impacting the way people see us because what we're telling them without knowing what we're saying.
And in relation to walking, multiple kind of dialogues are happening, right? We're having a conversation with the surface of the earth or the ground, right? We're dancing on it, right? But if we dance with it, we're always going to be more efficient, right?
Again, our joints are having this interaction as people are kind of moving around us, we're having these nonverbal, communicative interactions as we navigate around the spaces with the people. And that involves everything that involves like things that we can think about and so much that we can't think about. You know, that's why it's like I say, like the way we actually move our body in like our full kind of sensory experience and everything that's happening on nervousness, all at once in this kind of emergence that happening. Have you experienced that people in different cultures have a different relationship with this?
And one thing that when I say that is, like when I was just in New York, or when I'm walking in the street and people are walking towards me, and there's only so much room, I'm always interested to see how people respond to that. Like they're looking right at me and they don't get out of the way, for example, I find that utterly fascinating. So I remember when Lane and I were in India for friends wedding 15 years ago or so, tons and tons of people, less difficult interactions during the course of a day walking through tons of people in India than you have in five minutes in Whole Foods where people park their apartment in the middle of an aisle and just randomly go off into space. And it's like a whole different way of thinking about the way our bodies interact with that space and those people in that place.
And I was wondering if you've seen things similar to things. Yeah, I mean, I haven't spent much time in like more collectivist cultures, but I mean, I read about them quite a bit. And I think in some ways what you're describing is kind of like people who have kind of emerged out of a culture that's a little bit more individualist, right? It's kind of like me, myself, and I attitude.
So it's like, I'm not getting out of the way or I'm going to win this walk in this way or, you know, who cares what everybody else is doing. I'm parking my car right here. Whereas in some of these other parts of the world, it's there's a little bit more we us and them. And not to say that that's like a better way to live either.
I'm not proposing better or worse. What I'm thinking more is that there's kind of, again, this like dance that can exist between the individual's mindset and like the collectivist mindset. So that like, you know, we see a little bit more of like we in me. And I think that there's something there, but yeah, I mean, speaking of what you're talking about, I think that it's really like a cultural emergence or a societal emergence in these very individualist places.
And it's not a single person being like, I'm going to be this way. It's just kind of what's come out of it. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, you came out of the fitness world and I think came out of is an interesting phrase both from an evolution and an escaping from perspective.
How do you, I mean, what was the thing that kind of triggered that and how did you then develop what you're doing with Infinite Play? I mean, I was really practicing a lot of practice in like six hours a day. This movement practice where things were in containers and things were really tight and I progressed and could do amazing, gymnastics things, and I could do amazing strength things and I would have these moves and some techniques and things. But I realized that like, I couldn't just show up and play in any scenario, you know, like I needed kind of everything to be in place, right?
And then there was this really funny moment where I realized, oh man, I can stand really well on my hands. I can almost be a one arm handstand. I'm subjectively, I move poorly on my feet. You know, that was kind of a catalyst for like, what's going on here, you know, then, you know, I started thinking more philosophically about the things that I believe in and the things that I care about and the things that I value, you know, and playfulness became a sword that just really like kind of capture a lot of the things I care about.
And I was talking to my friend Marlo Fiskin, who was a really, really well-known, pole movement teacher, performer, artist, she's a genius. And I just asked her one day, I said, hey, you know, what do you feel like isn't talked about enough in movement? And she said how our practice and our teaching can reflect the changes that we want to see in the world. And it was just kind of this aha moment where I thought to myself, wow, like, I really care about what the world might look like if people were willing to welcome surprise rather than defeat surprise.
Can I facilitate that in what I present, you know, can movement be my vehicle for that? And that was kind of the jumping off point. And so from there, I mean, it sounds like that was a kind of aha, but not clearly fully formed something. It had to, you know, at some point had to take on a bit more of a, I don't want to use the word structure indirectly, but it had to, you know, become a bit more tangible, at the very least.
And I like that idea of what happened as you were in terms of developing it. Yeah, I was fortunate enough that when I was, I lived in Boulder for a few months, and there was a group that would meet me out there in the park in North Boulder Park twice a week. And they were just kind of like, I don't want to say anything because we were really working on things together and creating together. But I was facilitating and trying and experimenting.
And every day I was just kind of walking with a couple little like nuggets of ideas. But what I really thought to myself was the teachers that I've been the most moved by in my entire life are not people who showed up with amazing content, even though the content ended up being amazing. But they showed up with a message. And then anything that they presented just went through the filter of that message.
Every day I'd be like, walking to the park and I would just be thinking to myself, okay, my message is playfulness. Playfulness means to welcome surprise and uncertainty. The tools for being welcoming surprise and uncertainty are to be creative, adaptable, cooperative. And I would just kind of like say these things over and over and I walk into my little ideas and just kind of throw them out there.
But then it also meant that I'd almost set it like a mantra to a point where I was like, I also need to welcome surprise. So whatever everybody else throws back at me, that's part of what we start cooking with together. So I might show up with an idea, but then part of play is letting it unfold. When it's too rigid and you're trying to hold it in place, well, that's not surprising anymore.
So then I might propose this type of small game, for instance. But then they would start adding to it and creating their own scenarios. Like my friend was a break dancer added his little pieces to it. And then this friend of mine is a contemporary dancer added these other pieces to it.
I'm like, oh, well, that's what happens when you let everybody kind of add their spice to the soup rather than saying, I've got the recipe, no one else put anything else in. It's interesting because if you're trying to establish yourself as a teacher of a thing, you need a thing. And so this happened in the Barefoot running movement back in 2010, where there was just maybe a dozen people who each were trying to carve out a thing. And it was very, it was definitely very rigid.
It was like, you have to do it this way. It's like, no, no, you don't really have to do this other way. So doing that. Yeah, well, speaking before we spoke a little bit about competition and cooperation, there's this book by this guy named Alfie Cohn called No Contest.
And then he starts talking about the cooperative learning movement. And I think that maybe took over the 90s and 90s as you have cooperative learning, trying to push it in schools. But immediately when it kind of became popularized, people jumped in. We're like, we need to create a system of methodology to sell the system.
And inevitably didn't work. And what he points out is he was like, it's not a system. It's actually a value. So what we need is like teachers and facilitators who embody the value.
And then they walk into each novel scenario with that value, and then present it to that unique group in the way that it's going to be done at that period in time. It strikes me that that is so anti-evolutionary in some way. And what I mean is that there seems to be an evolutionary pull towards having something systemized, systematized, having some clear understanding of what something is, even if that understanding is not accurate, we still go for it. I'm actually flashing back if you haven't watched the special about George Carlin recently.
That's watching. So great. And it has something that's one of my favorite things that he said. He was on Charlie Rose.
I love individuals. I just don't like groups. And sometimes a group is as small as two people. Because then it becomes a solidified thing.
And so I think that there's got to be a reason that we do that. And I would argue it's an evolutionary reason. And so being cooperative in that kind of open is I'm just having fun with the phrase anti-evolutionary, just because it's so not the way we typically go about anything. And ironically, it's funny.
We've built this company. There's now 67 of us. And I'm really, really happy that there's no politics going on. There's nobody competing for the next position, because there isn't a hierarchy like that.
There's just everyone trying to do the right thing. And some people do it well. Some people do it less well. Some people really get that's what we're doing.
Some people don't know, but that's what they're doing anyway. And it's, I think there was a guy who worked for a while who always called me boss. And I kept slapping him. I mean, not literally.
But it's like, no, that's not the work here. That's not the game we're playing. And when we're doing developing products, everybody is involved. There's lots of opinions.
And it ends up heading in the right direction. But even that, it's so we think of that as anti-corporate, which is anti-evolutionary in the same way. So anyway, I'm ranting for it. You're hitting an interesting point.
I mean, because we are really patterned machines and we have this magical way of seeing problems around us and probably play a pretty integral role in us making it as far as we have on an evolutionary perspective. I think that more recently, though, it's like, it's almost as if that ability to see patterns and create organization is like, almost become all that we do. And maybe it's part of this illusion of control that now is kind of seeping into how we want to move through the world. Because the blessing of consciousness and our unique consciousness is like all these things that we can do, like have this conversation the way we're doing it here today.
But also then at the other day, part of that awareness is that we're fully clear about our mortality and what's coming. And that's pretty scary. And I think that some of these things help kind of give that illusion that we're in more control of this uncontrollable world. We love the idea.
I mean, I have this fantasy. I've said, if at some point, Laina and I ever sell this company and we have a whole bunch of money, I'm going to go around and bookstores and buy all of the books on how to create a successful business and then take them into the parking lot and burn them. Because we love this idea that someone can tell you, here's how to get to this thing that you think will make you happy and I have a plan to get there. And then we just buy that crap.
Despite the fact that there's just nothing behind that that's remotely true. It's all hindsight bias and survivorship bias. And people use Apple as an example of an amazing company. They forget in the 90s, Apple was an example of a company that's about to tank and crash or Enron was a great example of a company for a long time.
And Senator knows what's great. I mean, it's like, but we do. We love this illusion of control. Because we know if somebody questions us about whether we do have that kind of control or not, push comes to shove or go, maybe not as much as I think.
And some people will be bossing up to go, yeah, no, I don't. Well, also, I think control is maybe closely aligned with what people think happiness is. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely.
And happiness, I think, is what people think of when they think of meaning and purpose. And I don't know what meaning or purpose is, but I know that times when I feel meaningful and purposeful, and it has more to do with what I was describing, like, really communicating with life and the world and that full body listening that I'm describing, those are the times where I'm like, this feels meaningful, like being with people whether it's doing Jiu Jitsu or tossing up all of them in the park or moving through the natural world in ways that asks all my senses to come alive, participate. Like, there's some sort of feeling of meaningfulness in that. And I think that there are just a lot of forces at play that want to make us think that it's something bigger, crazier, and probably more expensive.
Well, again, you know, control, like you said, that connection between control and happiness, I think is really on to it, because we do think that if we can control, fill in the blank, then we'll be happy despite the fact that no one has ever been able to control that. It's my favorite thing to talk about with regard to diet. It seems that, like, the way people approach diet, it's the one thing they know they can control to certain extent on a daily basis, which gives them the idea that it will allow them to have the body that they want. It will allow them to, I mean, fill in the blank.
But, you know, most of the time it's, again, a complete farce that that diet is going to be the thing that does, let me, it seems to be, I don't want to put this. The last, what's the, there's a phrase that I'm looking for, it's like the last something of desperate men, you know, whenever there's something going on in your life that's out of control, especially having it with your body, people turn to diet. It's like, oh, I've definitely got to change this. Where did you get that idea?
There's a woman named Denise Minger who wrote a wonderful book called, I'm Death by Food Pyramid. And she's written a bunch of great blogs that are really, really long essays about health and nutrition. And I'm not going to get into those per se. But the most interesting thing is, in the last couple years, she's been saying that she's no longer has any, she's not going to write about nutrition any longer.
And knowing her previous writing, where she would, she became like the bell of the paleo ball because she was a die hard raw food vegan, and really, really was affecting her health badly. So then she went the exact other way and became like, you know, I'm just gonna be nothing but animals and I killed my own bare hands, which I'm exaggerating for the fun of it. But, and then she decided to investigate these, like the counterfactuals, like going outside the room when someone says, find safe space. So she looked because the paleo movement was all carbs or bad sugar is bad.
She found places where people eat lots of carbs and lots of refined sugar, totally, totally healthy. She found that there was a thing called the rice diet that they did at Duke, which was taking up more to their people than having to eat nothing but as much as they wanted, white sugar, white rice and fruit juice. Almost impossible, saying on the diet, except that it literally made them go down to a normal weight and reverse their diabetes permanently. So she was looking for these counter anything.
So anyway, knowing that kind of thinking, when she said she's no longer right about going to write about nutrition, all I could extrapolate from that is she determined that there's no relationship to what you eat in longevity. Because you know, but that's what we aim for. It's like, oh, I've got to eat this otherwise, still in the blank. And I mean, I joke with people that I'm only, I don't know what I'm gonna do or I don't know when I'm gonna get hit by a bus diet.
If it's available, I'm gonna have some, I don't binge, it's not my thing. I mean, I'm making a cake right now, my birthday's coming up and I'm testing a cake. There's more sugar in this cake than I eat in a year. Can't wait to try it.
I mean, I think it's a hard topic to get into because I know where many people can be coming from, but again, I almost bring it back to almost like my message. I'm almost like, I don't know, if we were like more playful and again, like playful isn't joyful, right? It's like, it's that place of just not trying to defeat everything. And if we were like that kind of with the world around us, sometimes I think that some of these things would work themselves out.
Like, I think that we have this kind of, there's an abundance of food, right? And I think that abundance is maybe a part of the emergence of the attempt to kind of control and defeat things. We don't have to make sure we have enough, but it means that we're like, a lot is being defeated for that our abundance, you know, like what we do, land what we do to animals, what we do, all these things. But like, if we were a little more like playful with like our relationship to the world in that way, maybe there wouldn't be so much of this abundance, you know, and I would also say that if now if I were to go a little bigger, like if we were talking about kind of like food companies and things like that, not being so competitive and playing this finite game of trying to defeat one another and have the most customers and make the most money, maybe products wouldn't be out there that were so deeply, you know, call it unhealthy people in mass abundance and also super cheap.
Well, dude, we know people at pretty much every footwear brand that we've ever spoken with who say, oh, no, we totally get this natural move a thing. We just can't do it because it would be admitting that everything we've ever said is a lie. Right. And so, you know, the goal to make money with the idea that somehow that'll eventually make you eventually make you and or your shareholders or remember us is that play a happy drives a lot of behavior that is detrimental.
But I would also argue though that human beings in general were really bad at predicting what the consequences of our actions are. And I drive I literally drive around the streets sometimes or drive around the town sometimes looking at all the things that we did that we thought would be good ideas that proved not to be here's a really simple one. Everyone thinks the solution to traffic is made highways wider, but the evidence is really clear that more lanes you add, the more traffic there is. So it's like, but who knew the first time it's like it seemed obvious we need to have more roads for the car.
That didn't work. And that's just there's things like that over and over and over and kind of everywhere. Yeah. Yeah.
I think we're all just kind of like tinkering and stumbling and everything. I think we also just know, you know, we don't admit that's what we're doing. Exactly. We expect people like hit the nail on the head at the time and you know, which means we've like stigmatized failure and you know, there's other things, but it's like, you know, everybody's just like making their best guesses and stuff.
This is something I'm taking this out of context. This is something that I've been railing against lately. I've discovered in the financial world, what I now refer to as the venture industrial complex, that there's this whole industry about investing in companies that is based on the fact that no one is willing to admit the one obvious thing, which is what you just said, which is no one, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, no one knows nothing. They just don't, they can't predict what's going to work, what's not going to work.
And so they build this whole ecosystem to try to control it that ironically kills most of the companies that could be the successful ones, because they put it because to protect themselves, the bankers, the investors, etc. They put the source of their livelihood at risk in ways that they don't, all because no one's willing to go, I don't know, I'm taking a guess, seven that are. Yeah, I mean, it makes me think of this author, Naseem Taleb, who writes about like, you know, financial industry quite a bit. Yeah, you know, what you're describing is like when you're when you're limiting the exposure, when you're limiting the surprise, you're not embracing like a complex system's potential to be anti fragile, which I think is his word.
Well, Talib's first in Fool by Randomist, which is the book that most people don't know, they know the Black Swan, the subtitle, the hidden role of chance and markets of life. And the biggest thing, if you really read that book, you come out of it realizing to a certain extent, no one knows nothing, and more, if you think you are someone who knows something, you are setting yourself up for failure. Right, because you decide that you have answers rather than questions. And you're pulling the past with you in the present in ways where it doesn't apply.
Right, and the answers are basically trying to kind of maintain the status quo, where there's like the questions that what ifs that you can propose is when you are willing to expose yourself, right, to uncertainty. And as he said, that's like what makes the complex system robust, is like it needs that exposure, it's like a, it's like an immune system, you know what I mean, like it needs to keep like getting the exposure, like filling those little gaps for the things that are going to happen, when you also black swans. Yeah, well, yeah, certainly is there every day, Laina early on, was sort of upset one day, she's like, I feel like I don't know what I'm doing. I said, no one knows what we're doing.
I mean, no one's ever done what we're doing before. In many, many ways, our job is to hopefully be smart enough to figure out what we need to learn to then address pretty much the fire that started overnight, despite the fact that nothing changed is just changing. So I can do that. I said, yeah, I know you're super smart.
And I say this on a sadly daily basis, where my disappointment or upset is not because of whatever just happened or the thing that someone told me, it's because that crashed head first into the expectation I had about the future. That not even the control that I was hoping, but just like what I was expecting, what I was imagining was going to happen and what was necessary, what would be useful, etc. And I was going to take me somewhere between a minute and day to get over it. And then we'll have some creative idea of what to do next, but I'm going to be not happy for some finite period of time.
And that was important to me because it's helpful for me to acknowledge to other people. Here's exactly what's going on, but more, I also know that it's going to take a little while to unwind and it's nothing personal. That's what minds and bodies do. Yeah, I mean, again, we've not again, but we have stigmatized patients, right?
Yeah. We've stigmatized boredom, we've stigmatized rest and it's like, you know, that's what a lot of these things would kind of work themselves out. And like it makes it feel like we're not allowed to admit to those things in some ways. Well, it's a variation.
It occurs to me, I agree. And it's a variation of, you know, Lane and I, one of the reasons I think we have a great relationship is we've never said something like, I need you to hear what I'm feeling. So if we're upset, we haven't, we both seem now the same natural tendency to kind of walk away and wait till things settle down and then have a conversation rather than trying to deal with it when you're in the middle of what I refer to as, you know, you can't be smart when you're stupid, when your brain is not working well, there's nothing you can do about it. You have to wait till it settles down.
You can't control the, you can't control your ability to get creative again. It's going to happen what happens no matter what you try and do. And there's a whole industry and the whole like meditative world is promoting this idea that you can achieve some sort of supernatural calmness that pervades through every possible scenario in your life. I mean, it's the ultimate kind of control is that sales pitch.
And we've never met anyone who's actually lived that way. Yeah, I mean, I, I meditate a lot and frequently, and I would never claim any amount of like calmness. But what I do believe is that it like, you know, I, from my understanding, like Zen meditation, right, they do this thing called the koan, right? And the koan is, is like a riddle.
And from my understanding, it's there to basically distract your thinking mind, right, your conscious mind to a point that there are these little like cracks where your unconscious mind can kind of like see through a little bit. And that that is that kind of integration of the conscious of the unconscious mind. And I think to myself that like to me, meditation is, is creating opportunity to like see more options, right? Because kind of underneath the conscious mind, which is like where ego is built in like our ego is like the story of who we think we are, right?
Our options are limited to that. But like, as you go lower towards like the unconscious, like that like kind of pure consciousness, it's a sea of options, right? That are below our what we think we can, who we think we are, creating opportunities for those cracks to come through, I think is a pretty valuable little tool. I think I'm gonna reframe calm practice for you in a way that I hope is useful.
I think it's actually a form of play. I think because what is pointing out is which part of your body isn't touching the tennis ball. What is pointing out is which thing, what's that way that you're standing that's communicated something that no one had told you and the koan gives you a chance to eventually see it because you just can't, there's nowhere else to go. It's like, you know, what was your face, showing your face before you were born, you can't do that logically.
There's no right answer. And the only way the way you quote solve the koan is by doing something that breaks out of the box of only rolling the ball with your right hand to come in the answer. So I don't mean, I don't know from conscious unconscious, but koan's like, because I've gone through much. I'll tell you this one.
A friend of mine was doing a long time Zen session, you know, meditating for 20 hours a day. And he was just like really, really, like, like really aggressively trying to make sure he wasn't having any thoughts. And he was, you know, just doing the practice. And the teacher pulls him aside at four in the morning and says, this is about being kind to yourself and having fun.
He's like, what? And people, but people approach that practice often trying to, you know, as another thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, I literally think of common practices as they're really clever jokes.
And if you don't get the joke, then you're going to be frustrated by it. And once you get the joke, then the response is really, I mean, that's the natural response, whatever that means. And you said it's like a former play, but like when you're when you're playing, you're creating opportunity for the same thing to happen, right? For the opportunity to see the more options.
Yeah, well, you know, that's the other thing about whether it was in practice or whether it's common practice or any other form of meditation, you're putting yourself in a situation where you've limited your options to begin with, you're sitting in a place in a way trying not to move. And I like to think of certain meditations where it's shoving you into a corner so deeply that you're only response because you can't get out of the corner is to do something completely unconditioned, because there's no other option. You just backed up as far as you can go, and you got to break out of that and you can't do it in any way that's ever been done before. So the options are limitless, and you get there by being crazily limited.
Yeah, yeah, it's like with any sort of player improvisation, it's like, it's the constraints that create the opportunities. I, you know, I used to do something I had a word for what I did back here, but what was I go and see when I was in County for Living, I go see friends who did improv. And my favorite thing to do was whenever they asked for a suggestion was think of the most outrageous thing they could, you know, they've ever heard. So you just then watch them go, Oh, crap, I'm gonna really have to do something totally different here because I have no idea where to go with that one.
Name something people were obsessed with, boulder wheat. And then you watch people's heads explode for a few minutes. One of my favorite one, I don't think this was mine. I think this was the one that gave me the idea of somebody said, give me a popular phrase and this is a university with a bunch of science people.
And the phrase that someone yelled out was, on Todgene recapitulate's philogene. Much a much of really good improv actors go. And they redid it syllable by syllable. That was the only way.
Wow. Speaking of improv, since, since you said it's one of my favorite things to mention, because, you know, there's always this these talks that come up right around like the movement space of who great movers are, like who are these amazing characters. And you know, oftentimes, you know, like Bruce Lee will come up or Charlie Chaplin made, these are like the kind of the ideal movers. And Charlie Chaplin is amazing.
But people often say Bruce Lee and I say like, I'm not so, like, I don't know a ton about Bruce Lee. I know that he created an art for me is amazing and all this, but I really don't know enough about him to know that that's my kind of like North Star for movement. Because I don't know enough to know whether he was playful. But there is somebody who I do know is quite playful.
And that's my North Star. And I always say that it's Bill Murray. You can show up and sees options in any scenario with any person and can move playfully through life. And to me, I'm like, that's the thing.
You know, I think about that one a lot, because I wonder if Bill Murray could be Bill Murray, if he wasn't Bill Murray, if you know who he was, if he wasn't rich, if you didn't have this thing walking in the door where people already are okay with that. If you just did that as a normal human being, there's a thing, I think about some of the things he's on, he could get away with if he was a normal dude, others not a chance. And that's the part that I'm intrigued by. He doesn't even have a strong awareness of his role and absolutely be him.
And I think that he's a player like that makes me think that if he wasn't famous Bill Murray, yeah, and still have that awareness, he would be able to play with the different options, minus the thing. I'm willing to bet that he did some of those things before he became Bill Murray, mostly around friends and mostly in situations that either made them follow the floor laughing or embarrassing to no end. But then when he became Bill Murray, it became open season. It's like, I can live my whole life like this and just go from one to the other.
Now, granted he's having some issues right now, essentially, but independent of that. Yeah, to be to know that you can be a catalyst for fun at a level that maybe no one else on the planet can pull off. I just keep thinking that must be the best. Yeah.
Now, I don't know, I'd be really interested to find him and find out what his perception of that is. It may be that he thinks there's a whole lot of pressure there too. But that's a really, that's a really interesting one. As we're having this talk about him, all I can think about is him showing up at part.
Do you know that story? No, I think that one was in the movie. I watched this movie. Yeah, it was.
It was. Yeah. My friend, I've talked about this before, but my friend who I haven't talked to many years, but he told me once he had a Bill Murray story from the village here, he and his buddy were walking down the street smoking a joint and Bill Murray came up to him and asked if he could have a hit. So Bill Murray's like holding his joint now and he's smoking weed with them and they're chatting and these guys are like, this is the best night ever.
And he said, he said to them, you guys want to have a really great story to tell. And I think they were both like, man, the story's already amazing, but sure, let's make it better. So Bill Murray shoves both of them and then takes off running down the street with the joint in his hand and he gets like a block away and he screams at him. Now you can tell everyone that Bill Murray stole weed from you.
Oh my God. I mean, like the first part of just walking up and saying, can I get a hit up that that one is totally doable preview of Murray and I say that because I've done things at that level. I don't smoke weed, but I mean, but like a bunch of us were like six of us were at a restaurant and there was another table next to us that was six people who looked just like us and they got it left before we did and they left a bunch of leftovers on their plate and I turned to the people on my table. I said, if those were our friends, if they were sitting at the table with us, we would just eat their leftovers and everyone laughed and then I went and grabbed their plates and brought their leftovers over and ate them.
And so I was telling the story later to somebody while sitting in a restaurant, I was there with my wife and a friend and I was telling the story and there was a guy sitting next to us who then just handed me his leftovers and then we became really good friends. So there's a certain level of Bill Murray-ness that you definitely can pull off whoever you are, but then there's a whole Bill Murray level. Right. I think he has that ability to listen in the deep way.
Yes. Yes. Listen, like it's with his whole body and I think that like, I don't know the more we feed that and the more options we see for these moments like you just had, you know, like you can like the listening can happen and like in like all the ways that help kind of manifest those moments. It sometimes takes a while to kind of get to, you know, get to where we want to go in a conversation or where we didn't know where we were going to go, but we get somewhere that's fun.
And I think this is things that we've been saying for the last hour, but I want to highlight it. Everything we're talking about is really the opportunity to find options that we didn't know existed and to whether we create them or they just land in our lap or hit us in the face or in the back of the head, it's just how can we create options? And I think the idea of turning Bill Murray into a verb might be a good place to land with that. How can we Bill Murray this?
If things don't work out for infinite plan, there's just our calling it Bill Murray. Bill Murraying. And so now I'm hoping that someone knows Bill Murray and they, you know, have them call me up and we can talk about this because I there's no question in my mind that to a certain extent, we have done a little positive rejection and are thinking that his life is better than maybe it is. And there's also part where we don't know the half of it.
And, you know, we may not have heard the best stories yet. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, if you can get them on the podcast, just let me know so I can at least come on and like throw a few questions at them.
I'm just going to try and get them on the phone and get some shoes on a speed of you, you know, so so so. Now that we've found out, you know, it taking this wacky circuit is which is of course appropriate for the conversation because we had no idea where we're going to go and there went as we bring this in for not even a landing, but for the transition from what we've been doing to something next where we're not on a podcast. And what would you like to kind of leave people with in addition to how can they get in touch with you? Is there anything else that you want to kind of call bring this to the next whatever with?
Yeah, I think that one thing that I often like to remind people of is that we often exist in places, right? Where we're like to feel like we're not enough and it can be like in friendships or in workshops or in our societies or our jobs where we're made to feel like what we are right now is not enough. We need to do more to become the thing that we're supposed to be which also leads us wishing that yesterday and a year ago we had done the thing so that in this moment we would be the thing that we were supposed to that we think will be in five years or whatever. Yeah.
And really what I want emphasized is that like when we play it's this beautiful gateway to like seeing that like right now we're enough and right now we have all the things that we need to to be and enjoy and be happy and all it just needs to do is just be dusted off a little bit because the enoughness exists right now and I wish for more spaces where we kind of celebrate the you are enough idea as opposed to always getting everybody caught up in a time traveling of you're not enough. Here's the reasons you're not enough. Someday you'll be enough. I say I say just for a moment drop the idea that you're a self improvement project.
Yeah, yeah and that right now you're perfect. If you walk out the door and think like I have all the tools I'm enough. I've got it like whatever I am today is exactly what I'm supposed to be. I think that like the play will be will be really enjoyable.
I think there's a I want to add a caveat to that. Tell me what you think of this. The I know that when you say something like that some people that think yeah but I don't like feeling the blank something about myself the way I'm thinking the way my body is whatever. Let's just use thinking like you know I've negative thoughts like yeah that's okay that's just what's arising now and we have the idea if someone says hey you know you're fine as you are you're enough they go they project and imagine that what that means is they're going to have that same experience in perpetuity.
They'll have some unpleasant thing in perpetuity and that argues with the idea of being enough or being what are certainly perfect and forget that in a moment that may change and in fact in the moment that they're arguing in their head with this idea it's already changed that that you know it's like again it's there's that thing of just seeing the landscape differently and what you just said is a provocative way of doing it because it will it will come right up into people's face and saying no my fill in the blank is not fill in the blank and I mean they're mad lives they're doing mad lives with their own self to argue with that idea and the joke being that A it will change and the second joke being it just did because you're having that argument and right and also the idea that people might feel like the negative part of their experience is something that's wrong or that's part of being enough is like the sorrow and the joy and the happiness is that like fills up the enough. Do you know that you're you're doing a kind of elaboration of another zen line so the zen line before zen mountains or mountains and rivers or rivers during zen mountains are no longer mountains and rivers are no longer rivers after zen mountains or rivers sorry mountains or mountains and rivers or rivers and people like to think that means that once you become quote unquote enlightened that everything's magical and special and the zen line is saying no no no during that time when you were practicing or improving or doing whatever every that's when everything is not what it is you weren't letting it be what it is and then what you come to realize is no no it's totally fine exactly as it is nothing extra nothing special and it's not just mountains or rivers it's every thought you have every experience you have every everything mountains or mountains or rivers or rivers and another way of saying that saying that is the mind there's another line which is that everyone has Buddha nature and all that means is that yes if you be him this thing called awakened you'd be having the exact same experience you're having now exactly the same people no no the Buddha was open they fill in the blank with some stories they made up so what you just said is you know just an upsizing 2000 years of Buddhism oh wow I always think about it in this way because I'm a big Alan Watts fan and at one point he was talking about this idea of like the seed in the tree I don't know if you've heard this one this lecture it was the idea that like nobody looks at that time between when the seed is in the ground and when the tree is fully grown and criticizes it any of the points along the way that it's like not a seed or a tree yeah like you look at all the points between one and the other and it's like well that's exactly where it's supposed to be yeah and I and then applying that to us and applying that to human beings and our distance and our lives and our relationship you know the difference right now is the thing it's what it's supposed to be but you know here's the difference in the problem with that is that then people think yeah I want to become a tree what do I need to do they start because you know because the difference is that there's an end goal in mind and this is where we all get hung up is that once we have that end goal in mind that's when we start having to add more to those states in between it's like am I getting there am I getting the right ways it can be you know I'm I'm gonna be that tall as a tree maybe this tall as a tree there's gonna be other trees they're sucking up some my light so because I'm gonna I'm gonna suggest for the fun of it just because from what you said given your desire for options and play the problem with that Alan Watts metaphor is we know the end result already to some degree but we don't know the shape the size the direction that this is true I think it's okay in our like you know our life the way it is we got to we compare ourselves to and judgment all these things it's like we imagine that we're gonna be the redwood that's like perfectly straight perfectly symmetrical and all these things yes I what sort of looking for I take that point that I made and throw it away I object your honor sustain yes I'm objecting to myself and sustaining myself I want to propose one more film just because we've talked about one of my favorites that I bring up recently but the other one is the one that I talk about constantly and I think it's the one that's always worth watching in this the movie soul that picks our film oh and I haven't seen it and I've wanted to oh well then we might have to do a part two but you should watch soul and there's just this beautiful beautiful scene where this soul that's never been to earth before is on earth for the first time in an adult body better just like arrived in and is like moving through these moments and like feel like witnessing like the leaf fall from a tree and tasting pizza for the first time and having this like amazing conversation with a barber and then feeling the wind blow up and from the great underneath them from the subway and just being taken by by all of it yeah and the idea that like it's not you know the seed in the tree of these like kind of peak moments right that we're kind of always looking for these peaks but like all of that space in between is also like the space where like the same feelings experiences can happen if you like if we're listening I'm now taking your tree you're an Ellen wants a street metaphor to the next phase where where the tree has done as much as it can and for whatever reason falls down decomposes and starts all over again and and I like that one by the way of soul I think something that was taken from star man which is with Jeff Bridges where my favorite bit where he discovers apple pie so he's you know it comes into a human body and then there's a scene where if you're at a diner and they bring the pie and food he starts eating the pie first and I was just going to run the name of the actress who plays opposite him no no you eat that last it's like you okay and just eats the pie it's like no this is the way to do it yeah so um all right well that was the most non-landing landing we've ever taken that was really delightful Kyle if somebody wants to get in touch with you and have more fun how do they do that? My website is Kylefincham.com and I've got my blog on there I've got the podcast and your episode will be up in the next couple weeks okay smokes I also have my schedule for my upcoming events so I'll be headed to Europe next week and I'll be there all the way through August doing a workshop every single weekend and then my instagram is just at the infinite play guy the infinite play guy and Kylefincham by the way kyle fi ncham. Did I get it right?
Right. Right. That one. Beautiful.
Kyle total total treat really looking forward to us next thank you so much for being here even though you're not here you're just a disembodied face on my computer screen. Yeah and in real life too. I have no evidence that you have a body at this point for all I know you're heading to torso so yeah I'm the usual well I am to head in the torso so there you go for everybody else who may also be heads and torsos at some time in your life thank you're being here go to www.jointhemovementmovement.com find free this episode other ways you can find the podcast how you can find us on social media which is youtube and facebook and instagram you know social media is what I'm saying and again like and share and thumbs up and hit the bell on youtube again if you want to be part of the per tribe just subscribe and if you have any requests or feedback or people you know things that you think I should know or someone who should be on the show or whatever you can think of you can drop me an email just move mov at jointhemovementmovement.com and until the next one as always just go out have fun and live life feet first.