You know, this entire natural movement, barefoot running, mineral issues that are this whole thing really started in 2009 with the publishing of the book, Born to Run, and also an article from Daniel Lieberman from Harvard. But Born to Run was really the thing that kicked it off. And I am thrilled to say that we're going to be talking with the author of the original and the co-authors of the new Born to Run 2. And you're going to have a blast on this episode of the Movement Movement podcast, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about what it takes to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting feet first, and where we break down the prop again in the mythology.
And sometimes the flat out lies you've been told about what it takes to run or walk or hike or do yoga or cross-fitter dance or whatever you do on your feet. And to do that enjoyably, efficiently, effectively, and within a say, enjoyably trick question. I know I did because I always say it because look, you're not having fun, you're not going to keep it up. So don't do it if it ain't fun.
I'm Stephen Sashan from Zero Shoes.com, your host of the Movement Movement podcast. And we call it that because we, and that includes you, and I'll tell you how in a second, it's really easy, doesn't cost anything. We are creating a movement about natural movement, letting your body do what it is made to do instead of getting in the way with technology that is supposed to improve things that doesn't often do that. So when you get a chance to go over to our website, www.jointhemovementmovement.com, you'll find all the previous episodes, all the ways you can engage with us, find us on social media, find the podcast where we find podcast, leave comments, give us a thumbs up and a review and a like and a bell icon on YouTube to get notified about other episodes.
And in short, you know, you know what to do, just if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe. When you go to join the movement movement.com, by the way, there's nothing to do to join. There's no cost, there's no secret handshake, there's no mantra, there's no whatever, it's just a place, that's the domain. So here we are, Chris from a Google Eric Orton.
It is such a pleasure to have you guys here and I'm being completely sick of Fantic when I say that. Stephen, you know my emotions right now, it is blinding regret that I didn't come up with the movement movement. Eric, seriously, should we have called Born to Run to the Movement Movement? It's not too late.
It's not. Stephen, I already got the website movement movement too. Hey, I will sell you the domain for just a fraction of a multi-million dollars at its worth. Right on.
I'm just I'm struck by that because it's everybody wants to be part of the movement. It's got to play on words that gives you that stutter step for one second where you got to process it. And then when you get it, you get the gratification of having solved a little mini riddle and it catches your attention for that reason. Yeah, I feel like I have to step out of the podcast and just be a lot of a lot of process of emotions.
Yeah, we'll come back to you. That's okay. Just take a nap, get a little potty, get some chamomile, help them inside. Right.
Wrap myself up like I can feel better. Whatever it takes. I also want to leave it all for the question. So I'm very curious about this.
You know, a lot of times people will either give me cred, like, oh, you started this thing, or they'll say, why do you think Born to Run took off? And I'm very curious about this. My intuition is that this was out there and really was a Lieberman because he actually does not mention feet before he was, but he was, I mean, for people who was in science or nature, I can never remember nature nature. So it's an article in nature and it was just showing what happens when you take runners who were originally barefoot and put them in shoes effectively.
And it was also just showing what happens with the forces that you apply and how these forces happen if you're running in shoes versus not in shoes. So I mean, that was the gist of that. But it did happen somewhat, you know, not simultaneously, but kind of in that same time frame as when Born Run came out. Yeah.
Well, so I guess my question is, where are these forces in the non-academic world already building? My intuition is that there had to be a ground swell, a dawning awareness in the general population that we're getting calm, that something is not right here. And if Born Run sort of crystallized a suspicion that was already pretty widespread. I think I'm going to take it in a slightly different way, because I don't think people thought they were getting conned.
I thought they were just confused or at the end of their rope about figuring out what they needed to do to be happy, healthy, enjoyable runners, because they've been having problems. I mean, when we did a survey about what got people into the idea of minimalist footwear at all, the number one topic, I mean, there's somewhat broad, but basically pain and injury. It was, you know, I've been having these problems and I can't solve it. And the analogy I like to give is that the running shoe world, and it's not just running shoes, but I'll use that as an example, it's sort of like, and the companies that make those shoes, it's like, it's the boy who, well, let's do it this way.
In the boy who cried wolf, the villagers eventually got smart, and they stopped running every time the boy cried wolf. In the running shoe world, it's the running shoe company that cried cushioning, or art support, or motion control. And the problem is the villagers never got smart, because the companies are really, really good at presenting physics improperly in a way that convinces them that this new thing they're doing is awesome, even though they've never said, sorry about that crap we've been selling up until now. Here's the new one.
This one's great. So I think that was part of it. Now, it's amazing to hear it. Sorry, but what I love is in almost any interview I've ever had over the years, people who wanted challenge minimalism will come at me with like, well, how do you know, therapy, and what's the proof?
Wait a minute, when did your natural body part has to justify? So how do you know your liver is really good at screening out your blood? You know, maybe, you know, if you're going to add a prosthetic to your body, you know, you have to prove it actually adds a benefit, it doesn't detract. It's amazing how the running shoe companies have reversed it.
It's made you justify what your footnaps does as opposed to make them justify what they're trying to sell you. Again, it's brilliant marketing that caters do a number of natural human tendencies. We like new things, we think that some new thing is always better. We think that for a while, we thought big companies were smart.
This is a joke that I have at the end of my two videos, one was a shit-biffer runner saying, the other shit-runner say two-biffer runners, part of the shit people say meme. And the end of the second one of what runners say to different runners, I've got a prop to do this. I go, oh, you're telling me that big companies do things that knowingly hurt people? You know, but my half joke about that is it's a shame that running shoes don't kill people because then we would have a Philip Morris like, you know, congressional trial, but they don't know it.
So I got to back up a little bit and do two things. First of all, Chris and Eric, so Eric is often the quiet one and I'm going to do things to make that not be the case as much as I can, but between Chris and I, that's tough as we are talkers. I just like to sit here and learn something. Yeah, that's not going to be.
But to me, actually, because now to your point that there was something in the air, I would say there was a little something in the air and why I say that is what a born and run set like three million copies. If there was something really in the air, it would have been 30 million copies. So there's a lot of people read it just because they love the adventure story, they loved your personal story of becoming a happy, healthy runner. It's shocking to me, the number of people who have read the book and never did anything with the information they got from it.
And that's where we're going to talk about with Born to Run 2. But even more shocking, frankly, it's the number of people who are customers of ours who I bump into who are into the whole minimalist where idea, who have never heard the book, which has been stunning to me. Everyone who reads it is like, wow, I love it. People who are not runners, great adventure story.
The science part is fascinating. I mean, it's just so well done. But it's an interesting thing about who has and hasn't read it. Now, Chris or Eric, one of you will jump in because Chris was the author of that book, but Eric, you were an important part of that book.
So do you guys want to talk about that? Yeah, I do want to talk about that. I do want to talk before. I think we should make this whole thing like saying Eric got the talk and never letting him talk.
But the thing is, I'm fine with that. I know that's the problem. It's like a running joke from Jimmy Kimmel where at the end, you know, he's always bumping Matt Damon. But of course, you know, Matt Damon was there.
And then one time they bump Matt Damon and then Matt Damon was there to argue about being bump. So it's really, really, really, I just want to say one thought it's funny because you can just trigger the thought that I hadn't had before. I love Born to Run, but it was a venture into the unknown. I had never written anything like it.
I had never experienced anything like it. And getting my arms around that story was very challenging. And I was very happy that they're bringing it for landing. But in some ways, I feel like it was a Apollo 13 kind of thing.
Okay, luckily we had the sock we got the thing in for a landing. But Born to Run 2, and especially because of the collaboration with Eric, I've also never collaborated with anyone before on a book. I feel like, Eric, this is our masterpiece. I feel that Born to Run 2 is a superior book to Born to Run in the sense that there's so much more knowledge and insight and maturity, whereas Born to Run was, hey, you're the crazy adventure.
I think I learned a couple of things along the way. Let's see, this, I feel like we really have mastery and information, and mostly because I could bounce everything off of you. Like, here's what I think. And you can say, yeah, you're right, for your way off.
So the collaboration with you created a book that was way better than any I've ever done before. Eric, this is your time to say something about that. Yeah, I was gonna say, you want me to speak, but then you leave me speechless by you saying that. Although, you know, I mean, that's awesome for you to say that.
And it was, I mean, I'm still honored to this day to even be considered a part of this collaboration. And it was just an amazing experience to work with you. And regardless of what you think, you know, there still has to be a one before there's a two. And, you know, I don't know.
And that goes into why we called it what we did, right? Born to Run 2, it's a sequel. It's a continuation. So in a lot of ways, maybe for us, and for me, it's just all one thing.
So I'm stupid enough that I did not bring the copy of the book that you sent me. Do you guys have one handy? Hold, just hold it up and show human beings. So another subtitle, the ultimate training guide, I think that's really important.
And then the top part has Chris and Eric's name on there. And this is the thing, I think that had you tried to do this one first, and of course you couldn't have because we all learned so much in the last 13 years, but had you even tried, it would have been just another one of those books that was ostensibly a quote, you know, barefoot running book that would have gotten some attention, but not the kind of attention that I think this one's going to get because it is coming in on the heels 13 years later of the original book. And so I'm really interested in seeing what happens for people who haven't seen the book when you do. First of all, it is gorgeous.
Just all the pictures in there. I mean, it is a really beautiful book. You're going to see it and go, it's a paperback and it's costing whatever the hell it's costing worth every penny just for the production value. So too bad Chris is leaving to go to the bathroom right now.
I think that's a number of times. One of the full color copy. Oh, two covers. Back it up.
Back it up. But little things like these kind of pictures. Yeah. And it's not just for the sake of having pretty pictures because the way the book is, well, I want to talk about so many things, but here, why don't you talk about the way the book is organized, the way it relates to the app, and then we're going to come back and look at that.
And we're going to come back to, I want to talk more about, you know, you and Eric and how you guys connected and what that's turned into. But just while we're here, let's talk about how this book is structured, what people are going to get from it and how the app plays into that. I sort of addressed the point that you brought first, like why it looks the way it does. And this is a concept we had from the beginning before we even actually had a manuscript was I think Eric and I both shared this idea of like, wow, we thought 13 years ago, I'm born to run came out.
It would kind of send this message that running is for everybody. Because you know, what's cool about the people that were down for that point or run races, it was a really weird collection, you know, none of us had anything in common. I'm pretty sure not even seemed genome at all. I'm not sure we're all mammals.
You got barefoot head, you got Scott, you got Eric and Lewis and the bio blog. A weird collection. I always felt like the message of that book is this is just a fun activity, dude, to get out and have an adventure. And yet, since that running has again reverted back to its sort of marketing mean of skinny blonde people striving those fast as they can.
And so we had this idea like, we want this book to smack people in the face with a visual image that is colorful. It's alive and involves everybody. And so we wanted, you know, gender fluid people with prosthetics and people of various ages and body types and complexions and colors on every single page. I want to pound this message through and it's through every single page.
No matter who you look at, it's somebody who looks more like your neighbor or your friends than somebody who's posing for a little lemonade. Well, so, but I want to address one other thing. While this is very much about running, is it? I'll just ask it this way.
So you can say, yes or no, is this only for people who want to become runners or get better at running? Well, I answered that by telling you why I'm so annoyed that I didn't think of calling it the movement movements. You're not going to let that go. Because it's bugging me, man.
It's really good. And I promise I will lateral the ball to Eric after this. But you know, Eric's point from the beginning is that running is athleticism. What caught his imagination about the battle mod is these aren't great runners.
These are great athletes who can use their athleticism to run long distances. But the athleticism allows them to be multi movement, multi directional people who can do swats and jump and crawl and climb. And that all around mobility is what allows them to flow across the landscape. But that's our message from the beginning.
I'm not going to make you into a good runner. I'm going to make you into a good athlete. And what you do after that is your own business. Pick it up, dude.
All right. So to answer your questions, Stephen, I got a call from an 84 year old woman in New York to say, I can't wait to start trying these recipes. So that's to answer your question. Regardless that it was my mother.
That's surprising because normally you got some great recipes. And so hopefully the person who maybe is not the runner who wants to try all the great recipes ultimately reads the book and wants to become a runner. And I want to highlight that. That's the way the book is structured is with these that this is not just informational.
This is basically every chapter is a little something that you can do a little nibble of that recipe where you can experiment and see what your body does and see how that how it responds. And if you don't think you ever want to run, that's fine. You might find some things in there that you like doing anyway. But there's a high probability it won't play your going to go.
Let's see what happens if I run based on all this. And if you are a runner, there's, you know, you might think some of these things are basic. And I would argue that you're probably wrong. But you might be right.
But there's always there's definitely gonna be things that you find where you go, Oh, let me try that and see what that does. And that's a part that's really interesting. And there is an app that goes with it. Please fill in the blank.
Yeah. So the app is just, you know, in this world that we live in now is just a digital support system for the book itself. So once you get the book, you have a QR code to give you the instructions to download the app and you can put it on your phone and you can have the 90 day program with all the support videos to go along with it along with you every day. It's very, very cool.
So you're gonna like that too. So I want to back up now in a couple of different ways. So I'm going to give this one to Eric for you to start the conversation. So again, you were not a co author of one to run, but you were notably featured in there.
Say more about that and how you guys can basically tell people who the hell you are because you're the one coming from behind the curtain out of the shadows and now getting visible in a way that I think you should have ages ago. But say something more about who you are, what you do and then how you connect it with the other guy over there. Yeah. So I live in Jackson, whole, Wyoming, but I actually spent 11 years in Denver and quite a bit of time up your way.
But all through the 90s, I competed in triathlons and mountain races. So I was riding up left hand Canyon Road and Boulder and up the ward and all the round the places that you can't Blake anymore because of the sprawl. But and then so then I was dabbling in coaching while I was director of fitness at the University of Colorado Health Science Center. And that kind of just piqued my interest about maybe possibly making this a career.
And at that point, I was one of a handful of guys and gals that were spearheading the online coaching world. We're back in the late 90s. And we kind of we were the first to have coaching websites and to really kind of give permission for the everyday athlete that having an online coach was an okay thing. And that really kind of got me thinking about, hey, this could be a career.
My wife and I decided to move to Jackson Hole. And that's when I went full time coaching. And that was 2001. And I've been coaching, operating my online business ever since full time.
And then in 2005, Chris and I crossed paths. He was commissioned to do an article for me for Gmen's Journal on my coaching and training up here in Jackson. And we actually had to meet in Denver because we needed a non snowy scene for a summer issue, but it was in February. And that was right when he I think it was March.
But anyway, that was right when he got back from the Copper Canyon the first time. And so we met in Denver to do this two day kind of training piece for this magazine. And all we wanted to do was talk about his experience meeting the Tarmara Indians and going down to the Copper Canyon. And after day one of that two days, it was quite apparent to me that here's a guy who really wants to run in can't.
So we I ripped up the script for day two and we spent all all that Sunday in Denver City Park working on Chris's running. And then that eventually led to the idea of, hey, maybe he could go down to the Copper Canyon again and do the fifth mile race. And they say that's that's how it all kind of kind of got rolling. You know, the meeting story from all couples is different no matter who you talk to.
So let's turn to the other side of the couple and link your version of that. I think the only thing that I would add to it is my extreme skepticism and doubt and surrender. Like I was over the running thing. You know, I tried it and I was getting hurt a lot.
And you know, nobody enjoys being looked in the face and I'd been down by a doctor and told you don't have the body to do something. You know, I heard this all the time. I would go and I was seeing top guys, I was seeing top sports service because still I feel where I was living has a lot of pro sports teams, so a lot of sports medicine doctors. And I would just see them tell us I'm having this pain in my heel.
I'm like, yeah, why are you running your 240 pounds or 65 by bike, you know, getting a pull. And so it's I don't think you realize what that kind of message sets into your subconscious telling you that you're not good enough to do this. And so I didn't want it. I didn't want the pain and I didn't want the embarrassment.
So I just thought I gave up on it. So I'm having this conversation with him. And for me, it's coming at him from a perspective of you say whatever you want. I'm not doing this.
And if I do, it's not going to work. But he did one thing that day was we were in City Park and he said, Hey, let's just do this, right? He should just jog around the grassy area a little bit like, whatever. Okay, I'll do this.
And then he goes, Hey, just sprint for 30 seconds. And I didn't have a process like I'd not sprint it like sprinting as a movement that I'd not done in maybe like 15 years. Like who sprints out of high school? You don't sprint for any reason.
So exactly, right? And look at you, you're not the example holding up to the general population. So I had to sprint and I flamed out like I couldn't sprint for 30 seconds because I couldn't pace it. You know, that's 20 seconds.
I'm stuck in air. But the next time I did, Oh, hey, I timed it's like actually sprint for 30 seconds. I didn't pull a hamstring. That little bit of playful movement was so invigorating.
And somehow I'm mind I'm thinking myself, Hey, this dude might be on to something. And B, whatever we just did, I would like to do it again. You know, he didn't have to tell me he didn't have to set out a schedule. It was such a gloge in my system that I didn't have to feel like I had to do it because I ate too much food or I ordered it for any reason.
There was no have to or should. It was like, I want to do this again. It's funny and not ha ha funny, funny, strange that you know, you I remember during the pandemic, there was one high school track out on the east side of town that the neighborhood is predominantly Hispanic. And so I'd go to the track to work out.
And it was all families hanging out. So all the guys at every age were playing soccer, all the moms were making food and all the little kids were running around the track. And they all a had perfect form. Sometimes they were wearing shoes, most of the time they weren't.
And they were doing this look on their face that I think psychologists call it smiling. They were happy. They ran until they were done laughing and then they'd sit down and then they'd get back up a minute later and do it again. And it was just for fun, often holding hands with each other as they did.
I mean, it was just flat out play. And that's the thing that I think people have forgotten, not only that that's possible when you're running, but you know that that's a guide post. That's the thing to aspire to. And there's no reason you can't do that.
I think I know I told you actually when I teach people to run, we'll go out on a park, take off the shoes and I go just watch how you know, like really look at toddlers when they're just learning, though, they just kind of past walking and they're starting to figure out running. Their heads are ginormous. And so they kind of lean their head and that sets their balance off and then they have to try to catch up to their head, which they can never do. And then they try and their head goes the other way and go just let your arms kind of flail.
Don't worry about your arms and just let your head lead and just pick in different directions and do it until you don't care that somebody might be watching because FYI, no one's watching. If they are, they don't know who you are and if they do know who you are, they're going to want to join anyway. So get over the self-consciousness and then just do it until you're having fun. And it only takes a few minutes till people just start having fun and they don't care about what's happening around them.
And then you can kind of take that weird thing of let your head lead and just, you know, don't let it lead quite so much or let it lead in one direction and slowly another instead of, you know, just careening you from one side of the other. And then suddenly people are running and having a good time. And they, similarly, they just forgot that that's doable. And just that invitation is, you know, can be the door that opens to allow so many other things.
That's been something that was so instrumental in the exercises that Eric came up with because they tricked people into having fun before they realized it. And you're right though, if you tell somebody, hey, just run to your arms flop around. They can't do that because they're happy right way and they're self-conscious. But, you know, Eric does a couple of things, just a simple one, a poguing, just poguing and bouncing in place.
And we tell somebody to do it, they're going to be self-conscious. They're going to be wanted to doing it right. They'll be asking you a million questions. And they'll just say, just bounce dude, just bouncing, you'll figure it out.
What you see is the self-concern and self-doubt just start to fade from their faces and then the smile creeps in. And they're having fun. And then they're bouncing from side to side. We do this rock lobster drill where we tell people to run in place barefoot to the sauna rock lobster.
They resist, they resist, and they start to do it. And that's a freaking dance party. We did two minutes. But that's the beauty of it.
Once you get people to stop thinking about how they ought to do it, and just shake it out, then suddenly that funds back. I've got to give you a totally semi-unrelated tangential story. I'll abbreviate it dramatically. I was at a workshop-y thing that there was a lot of middle-aged women who happened to be there.
And at the end of the day, sometimes they had a little dance party and they played whatever. And I put on, babies got back. And so, no one said, I like big butts and I can't not lie. Anyway, this song starts and these women are aghast.
And within another 30 seconds, they are shaking in. So, you know, sometimes you got to trick people to get them in. Eric, check out the piece for me on that one. Oh, yeah.
I will. I will. I will. You're going to find out whether that's a run into a playsaw.
That would be perfect. Yeah, really, really fun. So I'm going to dive into some, I was going to ask some things about one or actually ask a couple questions about the original book and then yeah, whatever. So, when did it actually come out?
2009. The beginning of May. May? May?
May? May? May? May?
May. May? When did it really start to take off? Into that summer?
So, it came out in May, it was pretty much universally ignored for, so I thought I was not reviewed. It was repulsized or not on TV or anything but it started to gain some little traction. I was going around doing personal appearances and I would show up at 10 captures or at running clubs or at running shoe stores, and say, you got to sk rink and I've been talking for five minutes. I was basically selling out of the back of car for few months.
But it's starting a little bit of word of mouth. And then the big sort of skyrocket was when I got out of the blue, I got invited on the daily show back when, but same as I said, the other show, the name was still mine. John, John Stewart. John Stewart.
John Stewart. And then at that moment, Paul took off. But even still, even after it had a glow, but again, it was never getting published. It's like, to this day, I've never been on an NPR program or barely on any kind of television program.
It never gets mainstream publicity. But the word of mouth and kind of networking on the runners and other people has kept it alive for a long time. And so I got three related questions. So what was the part since the book came out?
What's been the most happy-making, most gratifying thing that's happened from your perspective? And you can both answer this, you're like, why don't you start? I got to think about this. That's super easy.
It's getting all the emails that essentially look at Chris and say, hey, I'm just like Chris, thanks for giving us hope and confidence that we can all be runners and how we want to become. And that's what I really like about Warner Run 2, of how Chris opened Warner Run 2, kind of this came full circle for him, is that so many people were inspired by Chris. And here's someone who came in last in the race and he inspired millions. I think that's the coolest thing in the world.
Chris? I think there's two things. One is a very personal one. Now that our friend like a true has passed, he was a very problematic guy to be friends with because he's unfriendly.
But I look back and so much of what he said and lived was it. Like exactly what I'm trying to say, like I was doing it in every aspect of his life. And to have been able to capture that story, that of a guy who really should have been visible, he should have been down there in a canyon, unnoticed until the day he drew his last breath. And he would have been throwing it.
Yeah. Pretty much. There's something out there that he knew he was on this. He wanted to spread the word.
Yet he didn't want to talk anybody long enough to actually tell the story. Eric and I went to Leville once. We're now just training for the Leville Trail 100. And we've had, hey, Micah, you want to come and train this Leville?
And we actually had a ball with him. So me, Eric and Micah were out running trails all day. He was so fun, so upbeat. He was like a golden retriever off the leash.
And yet we come back in a town and we go out for pizza. And someone called up and they're like, hey, you Micah, give me this look like, yeah, I heard you got a race. Yeah, yeah, you go find online. I'm like, dude, you're the worst self promoter.
You're so fucking rude. So on a certain individual basis, he was adorable. But in a group, in a public setting, he was just miserable. So yeah, I think there was something, so I think he would like to be a different story of the out there.
But he didn't want to be in the vehicle. And so we got that like, wow, we got that story. And now the world knows it. Yeah.
Or something like that. Really special. Well, this is a related question perhaps. And if you don't have a different answer for this, I will understand.
But what's been the most surprising thing since the original book? I have one in my hand. That it's taking 13 years to have a freaking movie or TV show made about it. Yeah, that's the only one.
Yeah, that's the only one. We're going to come back to that. Thank you. Your answer first.
Well, my big surprise was it ever turned into the Barefoot Running Book. I think I told you Stephen, that was the chapter. I was going to take out a book. I was very, very, very, I forgot about that.
Have I told you that? No, you did. I just totally forgot. I was so on the fence.
I'm like, I don't know. And I literally would have a manuscript wrapped. And I would take the chapter out. And I read it.
And then put it back in and out, like packing socks in the suitcase. And if I'm in the end, the reason why, there are two reasons why I was going to take it out. Number one was stylistically, it is the only chapter that is not narrative. It's not storytelling.
It is essay-ish. And I really felt hesitant about breaking the flow of the adventure. Like, hey, let's all stop and look at the whiteboard for a minute. But the second reason why was because once you start to do that research and you start to talk to people about minimalism, to me, the evidence was so overwhelming.
This is a fucking obvious. But after you see, you spent two years working on a book, after two years of being immersed in that world, I thought everybody must know this by now. I assume that the word is already spread outside of my knowledge. And so I thought, it's too obvious.
And it disrupts the flow. And then I thought the last minute, I'm like, maybe just in case I should leave this in. So that was a surprise. And it became really the identifying brand of the book.
It is kind of funny that people really think of it as a book about barefoot running, which is far from, but I would contend, I'm going to let you get that chapter in. Because I thought my experience of that was it was kind of a good break at that time. What I love about the book is because there's your personal story, there's the type of modern story, there's the race story, there's all these things that weave in. It was just a nice little respite where you get to go, huh?
And to think about it in a slightly different way. So it was a good rhythmical change. I'm going to answer the question for me. The biggest thing that surprised me is I think that book was really catalytic in creating the whole ultra running world, the interest in doing marathon and beyond.
Because I don't think most people knew about the Levio 100. I don't think people clearly made people to know about the Todor Marra as well. So it just opened people's minds and it made it a thing. Now, to that point, I'm actually going to use this to lead to the next question.
The next question that I've done is what's the most disappointing thing since the book. And for me, the most disappointing thing is that it turned ultras into the thing that you need to be able to do. And made that this whole competitive something thing instead of the communal fun, whatever way people used to approach that before, where it just didn't have that. It took what was for people a personal challenge to do a marathon and then gave them yet another thing where they're often pushing themselves way beyond the point of having fun.
So that's my disappointing thing. And that's not just coming because I'm a sprinter. But it's just like, when I see the way people are approaching ultras, it's with a certain kind of, I've got to do it, that definitely looks like they're not enjoying the process. Knowing that, running a 50 mile or 50k or 100 mile or 24 hour, any of those things, it's going to suck at certain points regardless.
But there's different ways of approaching that. There's different ways of handling the suck factor. Yeah, for me, I think in one hand, it was the barefoot thing because I've encountered so many people that created a mindset in their mind of what Born to Run was and they thought it was all about barefoot because I have all the time people come up to me and say, oh, I finally read Born to Run. And it was a great book.
And I'm like, duh. And so they completely had this image of what it was about because it became such a barefoot conversation that it's just so much more than that, obviously. And even though the barefoot was a good thing, I think it was also a detriment to maybe having it go even further. Mr.
McDougal. Did this? Did this? Yes, that's a bottle of water in it.
It's a bottle. Wait, hold on. Wait, wait, wait. I'm assuming it's water could be vodka.
That's right. That's why they think I'm a more and more an in it every minute. I got to say that I'm still so stunned by the happy reaction to the book and all the good ripples in every direction that I can't say there's anything disappointing. And if I do, I got to check myself and remind myself, hey, a lot of good.
You're going to be at the first stage. So my good dream was to create this buffer zone down the copper canyons where the battle model would get the attention and respect they would deserve as true curators of this amazing ability plus these gentle people who have sort of solved a lot of life's problems, you know, that they have outstanding health and healthy diet and they are non-violence. But then a couple years later, cartel violence sort of intruded around the U of the gay and the race had to be canceled. But yet since then, that a week a race had spread and grown and now there's a second race on another part of the copper canyons.
And so I can say I'm disappointed that combined with never saw his vision of a U.N. buffer zone around the community. On the other hand, it is still spreading. It's a work of progress.
So I would like to see things happen faster, but the fact that they're happening to me is a good sign. So I got to say, I'm still thrilled beyond belief that this weird story, you know, when you work on the book, you sit by yourself with an idea. You don't know if any sentence makes sense. You don't know if you sound ridiculous.
And it was going to read this thing. And to be now 13 years later, and that people still pick it up in the first time, like that's a different chart. That's a good one. Yeah.
There's a writer that I. I'll say, cheers to that back to the gin and tonic. Gin and tonic. There's a writer that I know who he said his fantasy.
He'll know he's famous if he's sitting on an airplane and someone who doesn't know who he is, pulls out one of his books and starts reading it. He said, instead, one time I'm on an airplane in the middle seat and there's someone reading the pro OJ book on one side and the anti OJ book on the other side. He goes, that's the closest I've come that I've had nothing to do with me, but it's too brilliant. And it actually reminds me, one of the other things that sort of disappoints me personally and professionally and intellectually since the book came out is that whenever people bring up the conversation about natural movement, about barefoot running, about minimal footwear, et cetera, anytime there's a mainstream article or even a bunch of podcasts, they try to present the information as if both quotes, signs of the argument are somehow equal.
And so, you know, or in this variation on that, early on, maybe early 2010, I was at a panel discussion here in Boulder, a bunch of physical therapists and running coaches, whatnot, a few hundred people in the audience. And what I could tell is most people on a panel had clearly never taken off their shoes. They were just making up stories about what was going on. And finally, I just said, can anyone here just raise their hand if you run at least a mile on pavement?
And I was the only hand that went up. And I'm a sprinter, I don't even like running a mile. So I said, you know, if you haven't done that, you don't know what you're talking about. But you're presenting information as if your info, which is totally coming out of opinions, is equivalent to people who had experience and who've done these things that you say other normal humans can't do, it's gonna take years till you can do it, you know, you gotta have the right body type.
I mean, all the stuff that we've, we had demonstrably seen was completely false. And that still goes on to this day. So there'll be some article featuring, you know, our various research friends and they'll have someone on the other side who's just got an opinion that's not based on anything. I did a, recently I did a pitch for investors.
And I said, look, I'm gonna, to, before I can tell you what these areas are changing, I gotta show you what's wrong with modern athletic shoes. And some of you are gonna disagree with what I'm gonna say. But you gotta understand two things. One, I'm one of the leading experts on the planet about this stuff and the other is, where'd you get that belief?
Because if you track it back to the person who told you, then who told them and go back far enough, it's gonna be a running shoe company that taught some kid at a store what to say. And you believed it because they had a great misuse of physics and they're a little experiment about what it is, or misuse of how cognitive psychology works. And, but there's no proof of what they do. In fact, every part of the modern athletic shoe, when I show it to you and talk about it and talk about the problems, you're gonna go, well, that makes sense.
And you're gonna see that there's not one thing in that shoe that makes sense. And yet some of you are still gonna wanna believe that that's the better option. And that blows my, I mean, I understand it. I was a cognitive psych major.
I get how minds work in this regard. But it still just blows me away that what's so screaming obvious is still being presented. Somebody said to me once they said, you guys, you barefoot guys, you think that if someone gets injured when they're running barefoot, it's just so they have bad form. And I went, yeah.
And your point is, hey, well, you guys are talking, I'm gonna go get a little visual aid. So, I'll go get visual aid. Okay, then Eric, wait, then you start talking about to the extent that you have the info and we'll fill in Chris in a bit. There've been a lot of movements, if we can do it that way, for turning the original book into a TV show or a movie.
Do you wanna talk about that? I mean, oh, each of you can talk about what did it didn't happen with that and where that may be going if you wanna tease that. Yeah, I'll start with the past history. So, I think it was 2010, we got wind of a possible movie that was gonna be directed by Peter Sarsgaard.
His, I can see if I can get this right, his brother-in-law is Jake Gyllenhaal. And so long story short, all of a sudden Chris and I are in Leadville with Jake and Peter, learning how to film a race and running all the mountains of Leadville with those guys for a couple of days and hit it off and had a great time. And it was like, wow, this is gonna be, this is gonna be pretty epic, met Peter in Brooklyn. And just kind of this cool little circle of what was eventually gonna be this movie.
Well, Chris can take it from here, but it all fell apart and Chris, where are we at? Well, it's kind of interesting to see how the Hollywood sausage making takes place, because what would happen is, three or four different screenwriters would be commissioned to do a script. And what they kept doing was taking the story of Born or Run and transforming it into their own story of middle-aged insecurity and mid-aged crisis. And so the story kept turning into basically a 90-minute shouting match between me and Micah with a race at the end.
It was not entertaining and it was unfilable. It was not happening again and again, but anyway, luckily one of the unexpected benefits was someone who Red Born or Run is getting Chris Bender, a producer who's done films like The Hangover and Mulan and a bunch of other things. He became a client of Eric's. So I guess he was up on your training camp, Eric, right?
And Jackson Hole. And he said, hey, by the way, what's going on with Born or Run? And Eric's like, yeah, we'll call Chris. And he calls me out of the blue, and it turns out the rights had just reverted back today.
So it was a rare opportunity to actually put the book in the hands of someone who gets the wenchful, who gets it. And so that's where it is right now. So the idea is they are going to turn it into an eight-part television series, a limited series. And today, at this moment, it is out to studios for thumbs up, thumbs down.
They got out to six different studios. And look, if it doesn't pan out, we can talk about the Born or Run Project, which I think is a perfect TV show concept as well. So if this doesn't pan out, you got something in your back pocket that I would already might even be even better. But I want to see if you can confirm a story that I heard.
So when you're up at Leadville, the story that I heard, I'll start it and you can finish it if you know where I'm talking about, is that Jake and Peter, in particular, Jake, were sort of happy that they were in a community that was so into what they were doing that these Hollywood celebrities weren't being noticed and recognized, am I on to the beginning of this? You are. And it was a really good moment. So we're up there for three or four days, and they were actually camping out.
I had like a little cabin down by the turnaround point in the race force, but these guys were camping out in the woods, but this hurricane blew through. And so they were sort of huddled in the rain miserably and they would show up to race events and Jake had a big old beard on and sunglasses and a hat and they were just coming out of the woods and they looked like they just came out of the woods. Nobody noticed them, nobody cared. And after a day or two, you can start to see it.
Well, the hat comes off, the sunglasses come off. He's no longer like Dr. His head down, his heads up, nobody knows, nobody cares. And at one point, actually, during the race, Jake and I are standing at like the 40 mile park and he's standing down the sun.
And he's got a shirt off and joined the sunshine and he goes, oh man, it is so nice to be here. Like, nobody's paying any attention. I can just be myself. I'm not gonna worry about cameras.
At that moment, we see these two people do a double take and look at some point and they're digging their bags or something and they pull out a camera and they come hustling over and Jake just kind of sighs like, well, I spoke to the sun. They come up to us and they hand the camera to Jake and they say, would you take a picture of us with Chris and he do what? That's what I do. Only in this town this day.
Am I a bigger draw than you? But he loved it. He was like, he's doing like 75 frames. He's like reposed a lot of repositioning.
Oh man. Hey, I guess you're in my visual aid. So you're talking about the sports shoe market, right? And how is bigger, bigger, bigger?
The most valuable professional athlete during his era was Kobe Bryant. Yeah. Kobe Bryant insisted against a lot of opposition for Monday. I wanna lower show.
And he got the shoe. He won by running around the manifestation like the Kobe seven Kobe eight or so. He was getting pretty low to the ground. By the Kobe 11 is the lowest slum most minimal basketball shoe on the planet.
This is a pair of Kobe 11. You gotta say that is not too far from something you would have on your own shelf, right? No. Well, you know, in fact, I saw the videos where he was being interviewed and talking about what he thought a great basketball shoe would be and he was describing that except you know the one problem.
Hold it up, hold it up, hold it up this way. So people can see this part. That's the only thing I still completely screwed up is, you know, I mean, here's the joke. There are a lot of basketball players who have feet that are shaped like that pointy toe box because they've been shoving their feet into pointy toe boxes.
That's not the way it's supposed to be. But otherwise, yeah, you know, I mean, Davis has a great line. She always says to like, whenever we're on panel discussions or whatnot and there's some guy from Audidos and Brooks. And yes, I said Audidos to be pretentious because I'm in the shoe business and that's the way you say it.
Or if you're really pretentious and you can use this at dinner parties, just refer to it as Audi. That's the way people in the industry. So anyway, point being is that, what was the point? So I mean, we'll say to these guys from, you know, big shoe companies, so in the 60s, we were playing and said, he's we were playing basketball in Chuck Taylor's.
And people weren't getting the kind of injuries, the severity of injuries, the number of injuries that we're getting now. So what problem were you trying to solve and why didn't it work? And there's dead silence in response. So yeah, that's not too far off.
This is my personal pair. They were size 14 because I am normally large human being. I have to tell you, the toe box which looks narrow is actually extraordinarily forgiving. So I have a pretty wide foot and this really does not align it.
So you're showing my favorite thing, which is when people say, well, you know how is this shoe wide enough for me? How the hell am I supposed to know? They go, well, I'm a 2, double E, I'm a 3, triple E. Where the hell they say?
No, you're missing the point. Footwear sizing in the toe, there's two things about that. One is it's a three-dimensional thing. Three-dimensional shoes, three-dimensional foot.
If your foot is wide but low, you might stretch it out sideways. If your foot is narrow but high, you might stretch it out vertically. Either of those could work. So you can't take a two-dimensional measurement and apply it to a three-dimensional thing.
But I would still argue, even though it's stretching in that point where you're showing around the ball of your foot, the pointy thing that happens after that is still, I would argue problematic. So I was saying, being a user, not a professional, I find it extraordinarily comfortable to the point of, look at this, I'm not blowing these things out. Playing on hard top outdoor surfaces, I'm 16 years old, played basketball twice a week. The point where now I've destroyed these things, if the technology that's supposed to save me works, these would not work for me.
I am a 16-year-old dude with a gigantic body. And I hope you can see where that actually went out too. Yeah. Yeah.
All here. I'm seeing basketball court where I can't focus on my running form. It's still locked in. Well, I'll say something.
So we got a call from, first of all, we're doing a bunch of stuff at the NBA right now. And hopefully we'll have something fun to play with. But we got a call years ago from a WNBA player who said, I've been wearing your shoes and sandals off the court, and my feet and ankles become indestructible. I wish I had a basketball shoe.
Well, we had taken our first hiking boot, and someone said, this is just like a basketball shoe. It's like, I don't check Taylor. And so Dennis, our chief product officer, who used to work at Converse, kind of stripped it down and made a basketball shoe. Hold that thought.
And so we had made something, and we sent it to her. And it wasn't quite the right size. But so she said, I can't wear it because it's not quite the right size, so it worked for me, except I couldn't spray my ankle on these if you paid me to. And the one thing she commented on, though, and it may come to your point of when you showed that there was wear on the heel as well as under that first med head, is that I like not having padding in general, but I'm coming out from a rebound.
I don't have that much control. And I need something to take care of me if I'm coming out from a rebound on some weird aspect of my foot. And so this is a project that we are very actively engaged in, and which would be super, super fun. And so we're working that problem.
We'll talk. I know we got to know this guy. We'll look at it. I think it's really important, though, because this idea of people say, well, it's hard to learn.
Running for them. We got to concentrate on it. Once you get it. Like I said, in the middle of the game, I'm still landing the way I went.
I'm still running down a basketball court at full blast. In traffic, the same way I would have was out running on a trail. I do have a question, though. So could this be resold with a zero soul?
Now, now. Maybe. I'll select sort of the game. Maybe.
I don't know. We'd have to take a look at it. We'll have to see. I can see some.
I'm just wondering. I've got maybe. If I could turn this into a Frank and Shoot with a Kobe offer and a zero soul or low. I'm not going to throw these away if I'm not going to play them anymore.
Yeah. So I'll get a couple of options. Next time we're out here, bring it out. We'll take a look at our product guys.
So moving on. So let's talk about what is it now officially born the born run project. I mean, operation rerun that one. Yeah.
Let's talk about the webinar series. Oh, that's we're doing that. Oh, no, no, let's leave that for. OK, well, here we'll tease that.
So there's a couple things going on. First things first. We got it back up to the very beginning. Born run two is coming out in the US on December 6.
So if you're listening to staff of that, go find it in your local bookstore or you go find it at zeros.com and zeros.edu. I'm not sure. But along with that, we are taking all three of us. Doing a webinar series.
It's the born run project. Is that what that's being called? I can't keep things in my head. What are we calling that?
We're looking at either the born run reboot or the born run method. I'll tell you why I like reboot. This is the same argument that I had with, come on. Man, I hit it with my brain just turns off with Nick Romanoff, who's got pose method.
And I said to Nick, the problem with calling it pose method is it makes people think, oh, I have to learn some thing to do. But why would I need to learn anything? I know how to run. I've got legs.
So if you call it method, then you're setting yourself up against other people in a way and against people's own brain. So I would, this is my advice. Do that with you. You want with it?
I think that's a fun one. And there's a fun pun in there, too. Well, here, you can talk about that and then we'll talk about Operation Riemann. Okay, I think we're right.
Reboot is the way to go. I've got five, Mr. Horrors. I've suggested I'm like, yeah, but it's always the way.
Let me play with it and then I'm like, all right, I just should have just left the loan from the beginning. So now you're two for two for losing on good names. I couldn't have three for three because I didn't want to name the book born to run. I was against that title at all.
They didn't like it at all. I don't even want to know. I've been born to run as a placeholder. So when I wrote a proposal and we're going to take it out to publishers and my book agent's wife say, hey, why don't you just call a foreigner and run whatever.
I got to know the title. Let's just take a corner run on there as a placeholder while we put it out there to a publisher that's a proposal. And then the book was contracted and I spent two years working on it. And then I turned it in with a whole list of alternate titles which are very long and complicated.
And my editor was like, what's this? Like you have the title. No, no, no, no. It's too obvious.
It's too boring. It's like boring is good. Memorable is good. Three words are good.
It's born and run and it's shut up. So I never liked it and I rebelled against it. But I get the logic of it now. I'm going to go for three on titles.
All right. You know, you got to know where your strengths are. Yeah, I need that. Okay.
So let's do the born to run reboot first and we'll do operation rerun. Eric, you start. Yeah. So born to run reboot is going to be, I don't think we could condense it or know how many of the episodes.
It's going to be a webinar. A zero or two webinar that the first episode will kind of be kind of bringing people in from born to run and how born to run to came about and what born to run to is all about. And in a general sense and then episode two then will begin with kind of really attacking the part of the free seven in the book. The free seven are the kind of the pillars of the ultimate training guide in the book.
And so the first of those we're going to mesh food and footwear together and how similar they actually are. So yeah, the point that we don't know how long this is going to go, it's going to be a weekly, weekly, I can't remember what the monthly. Yeah. So it's going to be a monthly webinar series.
Not going to cost anything, but it's going to, and part of it's going to be interactive. So you'll be able to talk to Chris and Eric and get questions, etc. But we just want to give people an opportunity to experience this either before they've gotten the book to inspire them to go grab it and play with it or afterwards to really look at how things are getting implemented, which brings me to the implementation part, brings me to operation reboot. By the way, this is the part that I think we could tell her television show.
Yeah. Operation rerun. Yeah. Yeah.
So I mean, the whole idea behind operation rerun is really looking at taking some select runners who maybe need a reboot, similar to Chris for born to run or just haven't been able to put their running together. And we kind of just take them as a project and really that's where the project rerun kind of comes from of really taking a 30 day condensed period of time to get them back on the runway where they can take their running in any direction. They want to take it. When I talk to people about this idea, I say, if this were a TV show, it's like the biggest loser goes running.
And I think the what I love about that idea and is why I'm going to keep pushing you guys to do it, is that it brings this whole idea of natural movement of going out and having fun of doing it in a way that fits the way you were down to a level where again, it just makes it really accessible for anybody. I mean, one of the things about running and we haven't talked about at all is that, or I'll say this one, my favorite thing about track and field as a track and field athlete is that you discover that not everyone's the same. And then that sounds really stupid, but you know, the sprinters are a whole different world in the Mylers and the whole world in the 5K guys and all that. I mean, it really is an opportunity to find your own thing because you've got to compete in a specific race, at a specific distance or field event.
And I think a lot of people don't give themselves the opportunity to find that thing that's the way it works for them when they're not like in that kind of confined or contained ecosystem where, you know, the different races of different lengths. And one of the things that I like about the Holiday Vaporation Run is it does get people, in addition to just taking someone from wherever they are, do 30 years later getting them as good as they can be. It has the opportunity to get people to realize there's a way in for everybody if you want to take it. And it doesn't happen.
And again, it's not onerous. It's not yet another self-improvement project. It's not a thing to beat yourself up with. It's a thing you do as sort of an expression of being a living human being that can be enjoyable in the way you want.