Do you know that 75% of children have spent less time outdoors than prison inmates? And if you're shaking your head going, oh my god, that's hard for children, you are not much better. We're gonna find out why, and more importantly what you can do about that with our guest today on the Movement Podcast. But first, hello, I'm Stephen Sashan, from zeroshoes.com, your host for the Movement Movement Podcast, and I call it the Movement Movement because we are creating a Movement Movement.
Here at Zero Shoes in particular, we're trying to make natural movement the obvious, better, healthy choice the way natural food is. And this is a grassroots, groundswell thing that's gonna take to make that happen to overcome. The mythology, the lies, the propaganda that you've been hearing from Big Shoe, because the Movement Movement Podcasts are people who are in the wrong body to enjoy running, hiking, playing, dancing, whatever it is that you enjoy doing. Feet first, since those things are your foundation.
You know the drill, if you like what you hear here, here, here, that's fun. Then go to jointhemovementmovement.com, you can find out all the different places you can interact with us. And wherever you're enjoying this podcast, like and subscribe and review and share and click the bell if you're on YouTube, and you know how to do all of those things. So let's jump in.
I'm really happy to be joined by our guest, Daryl Edward Darryl. I don't even do intros for people because anything I would say would sound ridiculous and stupid and stupid. So why don't you tell human beings who you are, what you're doing here, how you have the great sci-fi look, because I can see the reflection of the screen and your glasses, like you're being controlled. Is that a, yes, okay.
So as I'll just remove them, okay. Oh, wait, it's like Clark Kent. Okay, we recognize me. This is Daryl Edward's glasses on.
Clark Kent, now I've become super human without them. Yeah, I actually prefer Clark Kent Superman because you don't know how strong Clark Kent is, but he's just a strong Superman. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, yes.
But it's a look weak and be strong and strong. Anyway, so I'm Daryl Edward's. I reside in London, England, and I am the founder of Primal Play. Primal Play is really blending primal, natural, instinctive, universal movement.
That's kind of informed by evolutionary biology, evolutionary fitness, what it matters to do and how it can inform us today in a 21st century, in a very sedentary environment. And using play theory, which is what we have to do to maintain good health and vitality, make it more fun and engaging and joyful. So that's really what Primal Play is about. So before we jump in, and I want to have you share a movement thing that the listeners, a lot of viewers can do, I know that you have the history, how you got here is one of those, it's a classic story.
It's what we hear all the time. It couldn't be more normal. People have this happen because this is one of my favorite things. So my former career, I was a computer programmer in Western banking, I was a software engineer, you know, tech consultant.
And I basically designed systems that were helping banks make lots of money. And people in that job typically, very active spend a lot of time not in a chair, don't spend any time just staring at a screen all day long. So it's obvious that, you know, you became Mr. Primal Play.
Yes, yeah, exactly. That was the natural evolution of spending 16, 13 hours a day, pretty much in a chair, eating in my chair, surrounded by computer screens, not socializing apart from this, it was a computer screen. That was the only interface that I was very familiar with. And, you know, of course, having annual health checks and then being told, Mr.
Edwards, you're pretty diabetic, you're pretty much on the cusp of full blown type two diabetes. You have elevated risk of cardiovascular disease, which means no, it could be a stroke, could be a heart attack for the next few years. You have hypertension pretty much through the roof. You've been at this point now.
I was in my early to mid 30s at that point. And that was around 2003, 2003, so, you know, that's kind of like really at my age, you know, this is sort of stuff that is part of getting old and I'm, you know, getting older and I don't feel that old. And it was like, oh, you know, there's, you know, genetics, family members that have some of these, these ailments, so that's probably what it is. And you're just getting it sooner than we'd expect.
So I was like, okay, fine, what can I do about it? No problem. Statings for your cholesterol problems, you can try to describe problems, met forming for your blood sugar regulation so that your blood glucose down, take some beta blockers for your blood pressure, get that down, pain relief for your bad back, you're chronic like back pain. You know, so all of these issues, the solution was a cocktail of meds.
And trust me, I would have taken them if they hadn't told me, Daryl, they will be for the rest of your life. You know, this isn't a fix. This is kind of supporting you for the rest of your life and dependency on these drugs. And secondly, if we have side effects, we'll switch out with something else.
So I'm like, that sounds like an awful life to look forward to when you're in your firties, right? You know, so I was like, I'm not ready for this. I don't wanna deal with the side effects. What else can I do?
And the only thing that I knew in relation to health and wellbeing about any of those conditions where that physical activity would help with my blood pressure. So I was like, let me actually just become more active, join a gym, start exercising, and seeing if there is any transformation. So I wasn't looking for a physical transformation. I actually was skinny fat at a time.
So I didn't have any outward appearance of having overweight or obesity, but I had a lot of internal visceral fat. Well, and people can't see this obviously, or hear this, but you are not a small guy. How tall are you? You're 6'4".
So you can kind of hide that well when you're that tall. Yes, and I certainly did. And I was probably about at that stage, maybe 30 pounds lighter than I am now. Lighter?
Yes. So I've gained quite a bit of muscle since then, but I was definitely leaner, but I didn't have much lean body mass, mostly muscle mass. It was pretty much just high levels of body fat in a very slim frame. Right.
So becoming active, my blood pressure starts to come down. Within about two months, blood pressure was normal. I was trying to talk up to my, it was normal. My blood sugar is normalised, so I was no longer prediabetic.
My lipid profile started to improve. So the mark, because they were looking at my HDL, was getting higher, my LDL was coming down, the ratios were improving, and the inflammation that I had, my inflammation was reducing, so everything was looking really good. My doctor was like, keep doing this. Whatever you're doing, Dao, keep doing this.
And when I started to ponder about, well, maybe what sort of diet should I investigate? So anyway, so for me, physiativity was the gateway to living a healthier lifestyle. And I was kind of like month to month thinking, if I can delay my meds just for another 30 days or so, that's a good thing. How long can I do this for?
And it's now been 15, 16 years on that journey, leaving banking in 2011, and embarking on finding out what I was most passionate about into communicating that to the world at large. So movement became my passion, rather than nutrition, and movement as medicine, and understanding the science of movement, physical activity, and how the body responds to this sort of helpful intervention. And that helped me with my conditions, that I was suffering from at the time, and how it prevented those fast forwarding to real issues. And then finally thinking, how can I make this sustainable?
Because even though I joined the gym back then, I was certainly a serial gym membership, sign up individual. Every January, one, two, I'm signing up, a 12 month contract, over here three, four times a week, religiously, pretty much second week, Jan, I had to change. By the end of Jan, I was probably attending once a week, you know, most Monday was always giving me the day that I would start, yeah, I'll start again next Monday. And so even though I realized there were benefits with physical activity, and I had this really good outcome from physical activity, it wasn't sustainable for me.
It was difficult to motivate myself. I was seduced by my armchair, the farmer more than me getting on my training shoes and getting to the gym or getting outside. That changed as I started to think about the, what was our gym back for our hunter-gatherer ancestors? Our gym was the world around us.
It was a natural environment we were in. We didn't train, you know, by using exercises and physical activity, kind of snippets here and there, to become adept to what we did for survival. It was living, surviving, meant we had to perform certain movement pens. And so that shift in the way that I thought about movement and how relevant it is to us as humans and how part of that exploration of movement and just considering what my body's table of doing, we've been in a natural environment, is what started to change my approach and my enjoyment of movement.
So before we jump into more specifics about that, which I definitely want to do, let's back up and do two things. First, I want to talk about the thing that I open with, which is what you gave me, the sad about most kids doing less physical activity than prison inmates and my addition that most adults are pretty much the same. And before we get into even that, is there anything you can think of just to share with people? I always love to start with a movement other than we're already 14 or something minutes in, so we're not starting, but that's cool.
Anything that you want to share, some movement is something that people can either do right now while they're listening or watching, or they can do later when they get home and they're doing whatever they're doing. Something just to give them a thing to get their body doing something else other than sitting and listening to us. Yeah, so I would say a close chain, open chain movements. So literally, and part of this is going to be some visualization, so I want to imagine you're compressing a ball.
Okay, literally holding your hands up. So you're holding a ball like basketball size or medicine ball size? Yeah, medicine ball size. Okay, so if you can see this literally whatever you can see right now, that's the sort of circumference of this ball.
Got it. Next imagine it's made of titanium, okay? So you're going to have to push really hard to compress this, take a few deep breaths, one, two, and really push full tension everywhere. Keep breathing though, do not hold your breath.
Push, push, push, push. You want to squeeze it to tennis ball size. Push, push, push, push, push, push, that thing is close together, okay, right? And as soon as you've got that, take a big deep breath in and then expand.
So you've got it pulling now this time. Put it in slower, even slower. Even slower, okay, pull, pull, pull, and really open the chest. And now you're extending this as almost as far as you can.
Open the chest, open the chest, squeezing the shoulder blades and relax. Ah, that's good. Thank you. So yeah, that's, you know, even just using your imagination and visualization, you can create quite a lot of muscle tension.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah, for people who are watching, I mean, I was shaking from the tension. So it's a moving isometric thing, but I love the contract and then expand part. I especially love the expand because we're just in our eyes or in front of our face.
We tend to focus on contracting things that we can see, but not other things that open up our minds. Yeah, so the periphery, exactly. And you're almost trying to, you know, you're working the antagonist muscle. So you're trying to, in that sense, that contraction is part of that pulling, all that extraction.
So you're trying to pull that ball apart as you're expanding the chest and squeezing. This is a weird tangent. Two, three years ago, three years ago, coming up, oh, wow, coming up in two days, I had shoulder surgery, I had pretty massive reconstruction of my shoulder. In fact, after my surgery, and they also had to cut my biceps and then screw it into my arm in a different spot.
My doctor comes in when I wake up and he says, oh, wow, we had to do a lot of work in there. I said, I don't know how I feel about you being so giddy. And so then I did, you know, all this physical therapy. And it was, I don't want to describe it.
It was very, well, anyway to begin. Suffice it to say, two years of physical therapy and it really didn't help a whole lot. And the thing that I got into this thing a few months ago, I have no idea why, I put a chin up bar in the second bedroom that we have in our house, we use, it's got a sofa bed and our TV. That's the only place we have a television.
So that's where Lane and I watch TV every night, if we're done working, and I put a chin up bar between in that room where the bathroom is. So whenever you go in and out of the bathroom, there's a chin up bar. So I started doing just a set of pull ups to failure, but not just doing, or chin up actually, but not just trying to get my chin over the bar, but just really extending getting my elbows behind me. So when I'm doing the chin up, the bar ends up touching the top of my chest.
So I'm really getting this full range of a very natural movement. And I started noticing after a couple months, my shoulder was like 80% better than it's been in 30 years. So that whole thing of the extension part of the chin up, rather than just the pulling, is the thing that really made a huge difference for me. So I love in that thing that you did, just what the extension does, because our shoulders are typically kind of rounded, chest's usually caved in, especially the former Omerican gymnast, where that caved in feeling is like the most important motion there is, I spent 30 years trying to get the gymnast out of my body.
So I really like that. Sounds good. Thank you, yes. And I can still hear, it's quite an aerobic, I can hear your breathing pattern has changed after that, because it doesn't look that intense, but you felt what intensity's like.
Oh, yeah. And a significant oxygen demand off the activity. Well, it's an aerobic movement, so the oxygen kicks in later. It's the same thing when I'm sprinting.
Like I do 100 meters, I take three breaths, but then as soon as I'm done, I can't breathe for another three or four minutes. Oh, yes, yes, yes. What's interesting for people to try this though, is that, I mean, it really, I don't want to put this. There's an incredible neurological component, because the amount of tension that you create is the more comfortable you get doing this, the more tension you can create.
The more tension you can create, sometimes the harder it is to do, because you're really pushing the envelope of what your mind is telling you, that your body can actually handle. And when you have nothing but it's totally isometric, there's no way you're going to do something stupidly dangerous, you can't really. Exactly, so yeah, this is almost the way of you pushing past what would be your natural limitation, your conditioned limitation, you can hit based on a certain number of kilos or pounds per square inch in terms of pressure. But here it's just about your mind and what you imagine that you're pushing.
And so almost the more conditioned you get, the more focused you can get, the more difficult it becomes. So it never gets easier. No, no, no, no, no. So it never gets easier.
And I think if you combine this in a very short space of time and working on full range, and you're not just working on the push, but also on the poles, you're working on the opposing muscle groups, and you kind of opening up where most of our movements tend to be here, closed. And you're getting into the afterburn effect, which is excessive post-oxidant consumption. So that's the anaerobic component where you do some work, you don't really breathe that much, you don't need oxygen to fuel that activity. But after you're body's like, give me some oxygen, please.
So yeah, it's a very powerful and potent aspect of movements even within that small. Yeah, yeah. It reminds me, the whole post-action consumption thing reminds me of an argument I have on a very regular basis with fitness guys who are promoting high intensity interval training, and especially the ones who have the instructions, just sprint all out for 30 seconds and then rest for 30 seconds, then just do that eight times. Like, okay, look, if you can do that more than two times, you might be running as fast as you can run, but you are not sprinting.
And they go, no, it's not about getting the same time, it's like going as hard as you can. I don't think you get it. If you're a real sprinter, you can do that one and a half times. And then you're done.
Totally agreed. I mean, I think even 30 seconds is probably outside of most individuals high intensity time. Oh, yeah, yeah. If you look at people, so 200 meters sprinters, I mean, they're going all out for 200 meters.
Not really, they're kind of floating around the turn sometimes, but there's no one who can sprint all out for 30 seconds. I mean, it's just not possible. Yeah. Yeah.
So it's, yeah, some of the hit kind of hit training protocols I see when you see people saying, oh, I did my 45 minute hit class and they're pretty much moving all throughout the class. I'm like, that's not hit. You know, it's probably vigorous intensity. Right.
You know, a big intensity aerobic activity. But I was like, trust me, you would do it like a to bar the protocols is a classic example. 20 seconds on 10 seconds off. And you've got and you do perform in it.
That's the end of the session. And usually you, you can't maintain what you could do for that first set, 20 seconds wrap all eight rounds. And as you, as I'm sure you're aware, the protocol was designed for Japanese Olympic elite level Olympians, like I said, speed, speed, speed, speed. Oh, really?
That was like less. Yeah, speed, speed. Oh, interesting. So yeah, so you know, they are able to push themselves.
Right. At least I did logically. It's funny with with top of the eye. I certainly can't do it running.
There's no way. And cycling when I had a, I used to have a recumbent stationary bike in my house. I could get away with it there. But the thing that when I was doing that protocol, I was doing it with a water rower.
And for whatever reason, that whole body motion, I could pull it off. But that last one, sometimes those last two sets, effort's done. I would just fall, luckily it was, you know, loading it out, I would fall over. And then ten minutes later, I'd get up.
And I loved it. I mean, I really enjoyed doing it. But yeah, if you're really going to do it, it is a beast. Yes, it's brutal.
Yeah. So yeah, it's unfortunate that it's become almost diluted. Yeah. And whereby, you know, if you are doing it, I do the one hour hit session, I'm like, you did one.
You weren't doing hit. I can't even say that now. And a few times that I have been hit, you know, I've done my Tafar sessions for a minute. Yeah.
You know, you're like a breathing fire. That's the one I can say. The breathing fire, I mean, you're certainly saying, please stop even after the first round. You're like, oh, it's not too bad.
But obviously, you're like, I should have said that. The second one you know you made. Yeah. When is this going to finish?
But this is, of course, the thing that's so entertaining is people, I'll say like you and me for the fun of it. You know you made a mistake. But at the same time, it's like, well, I'm not going to stop. I mean, I'm in.
I mean, it's only, you know, it's six more. I'm in. But yeah. Yeah.
But what's also so interesting is that it is so much a mental thing. Because you have that 20 seconds on and the first five seconds in the 10 seconds off. It's like, all right, maybe I can just, I'll do this tomorrow. And then the last five seconds, you're just fighting with your own brain going, all right, all right, I'm going to do it.
I'm just going to do it. And then you start getting going again. And the first 10 seconds, you know, it's like, all right, I can make this. And the next five seconds, you're not so sure.
And the last five seconds, you want to shoot yourself again. Yeah. It's a really, really, just psychological battle. It's incredible.
The mind versus muscle. Yeah. Yeah. Or 45 minutes, talking, saying, hey, I did hit train, hit the driving session, 20% of my potential going all out.
No, not quite. So moving back to the thing that we opened with about kids spending less time outdoors than inmates who's doing hour and day typically, talk to me about that and just sort of where you found out and how that's impacting what you're doing. And also just how you're seeing that true for adults as well. And basically, that's an amazing statistic that we, look, I spend most of my day, I'm standing or walking because I've got a treadmill desk.
But I spend most of my day in the office. I'm on the track on the weekends and sometimes once or twice during the week. I'm in the gym or not the gym. I've been at a gym a couple of times a week as well.
But man, I don't get outside more than a few hours a week and that's on the weekends. And when I'm going to and coming home from work, when I said that out loud, I thought about my own life. It's like, oh, crap. Yeah, that's probably me and there too.
Well, I gave a TED talk recently. And I called why working out isn't working out. It was just one of the stats that I pulled. I had so many interesting stats around both children's particularly in activity and the epidemic of physical activity and also for adults.
So children from sort of 5 to 17 should be getting an hour a day. That's the minimum recommendation by most health or for our public health organizations. 60 minutes per day of moderate to vigorous intensity activity, 33 days a week should also include muscle building, climbing, jumping, that sort of intense, vigorous intensity activity. So when you compare that to what kids are actually doing, then that's where you hit this 75% of kids not doing that, not getting outside for one, not meeting that level of physical activity.
And when you get more scientific and look at the research, the research tells us about a third of adults, UK and US, meet the guidelines of 150 minutes per week of moderate intensity physical activity. That's kind of like brisk walk, jog, going for a run, biking. That gives you an idea of what moderate intensity is. And it also includes two days a week of resistance training.
So there are many people who may hit the aerobic component, but certainly not hitting the resistance. The people that I know who are hitting the aerobic component, who are like runners, a lot of runners, they, despite my repeatedly saying do some strength work, and despite my pointing out that every researcher who is looking at running injuries, the first thing they're doing with almost everybody is discovering that they have weak glutes, especially glute medias, and working on their glute strength. No matter how many times you tell people this, especially competitive runners, like older masters athletes, they are, I'm surprised at how resistant they are to doing this. And especially if you say take two days off from running and do some strength training, you watch the blood drain from their face.
I mean, it's amazing to me. It is amazing. And just to say that, just to say that one step further in two directions actually, let's go towards a same theory individual and a non-exercise individual. So the research, a third of UK, US adults, meet in the guidelines, that's based on the questionnaire.
So it's only a single, same adults, and they're wearing an accelerometer. Only 5% of adults, US adults, meet the guidelines. 5%, 1 in 20 adults. And that's not even including the resistance component.
So it's probably even less than 5% most likely. So yeah, it's horrendous. So it's about 8% for children in the US, meeting the guidelines of 60 minutes, based on accelerometer data, and 5% for adults. There was an app that was created by some people that I know here in town.
It was basically a pedometer for kids. And the idea was that for as many steps as you talk to her, however active you were, you got points, you could trade those points in for stuff you could be to buy, I guess. And as soon as I heard this, I said, OK, it's going to sell really well for a couple of years, because the parents are going to go, oh, my kids totally need this. And then it's going to fade, because the kids won't use it or more accurately.
They'll probably sit there watching TV just shaking the thing around. And then when I saw the promo video for this device at one point, they actually had a kid who was just shaking the thing. And I was like, why did you put that in? And it's exactly what happened.
Like parents thought it was a great idea. But there was not one kid who was thinking, oh, this is awesome. I totally want to use this to win value prizes. And it really is outrageous.
It's something that's more interesting, because it seems more goal-oriented than enjoyment-oriented. Yes. And I actually cover some interesting stats again. I'm going to plug in my text all day.
Interestingly, 50% of people who buy wearable tech activity, like Fitbits and the like, just keep them in there, kitchen drawer, or whatever. They literally buy them, put them away somewhere, they never see them again. Out of the other 50% who use them are the three months, only 26%, of that 50% are still using their devices. And so it actually doesn't increase.
It will increase the amount of visibility for those who are probably already interested in staying active anyway. Yeah. So we'll probably get more meaningful data. And it might give us a bit of gamification when we go, oh, I haven't quite hit my target today.
But for your average Joel Jane, who are looking to start that renewal relationship with exercise, I believe it's actually detrimental, because it comes almost like a burden. Yeah. So you miss it one time. You miss it again.
You start to feel bad. My sprinting training partner, she's 65. She's a world champion. And the 200 meters, she's multiple world champions, or world medalist at least.
And she says, for me, it's the exact opposite. I said, what do you mean it motivates you? She goes, no, it tells me when I need to stop. You finished your workout today.
She's tired. Yeah. You're doing too much. So that's the other side of the bell curve.
So obviously, we know the centric individuals, they suffer increased risk of all calls mortality. So all causes of all deaths, 50% increase in all calls mortality if you're centric, as opposed to just hitting the minimum guidelines. But also, if you go in the bell curve, which is around 300 minutes to 450 a week, a physical activity model intensity, and two to three times of resistance training, once you go past that, which actually mirrors our hunter and get our ancestors actually pretty much identical. Once you go past that and you go into the sphere of elite athletes, you can actually, again, start having these issues with chronic inflammation, with olexia, with peractive respiratory tract infections, increased risk of injuries, probably long-term injuries and disabilities.
So we need to be hitting that sweet spot where we're promoting health. I'm always curious in research like that about how much they break it down by activity type. And what I mean is, I think about two things. One, the endurance athletes, especially the ultra athletes, the hidden secret there is the number of those athletes who end up with left ventricular hypertrophy.
So the left ventricular heart gets enlarged, causes rhythmic problems. This is what Mike drew if people were born to run. This is what he died from. Typically, we have left ventricular hypertrophy.
It leads to something essentially heart attack. And people don't like to talk about that one, not surprisingly. And then there's the other side. There's people in my end, the power athletes.
And we just had to die earlier anyway, for various reasons. I'm not sure what it is. Maybe a little faster die earlier. There are not as many power athletes that are a little trickier to study.
But you look at power lifters, you look at the sprinters, you look at football players. Now, again, a lot of drugs involved in some of those. I think you said that's a different story. But power athletes in general tend to be on the lower side of that mortality curve as well.
Yes. I mean, they tend to fit, apart from NFL athletes where concussion obviously could fall. Average activity is really low. It's much lower than sedentary individuals, actually.
But in general, the fits we are. So if you just look at not performance, not certainly not elite level performance, not even club level performance. But your average Joel Jane, who has a fairly healthy spectrum of fitness and low resting heart rate, good glute max, good grip strength, good mobility and function, those individuals tend to be the longest, with good quality function, with rejection and cognitive decline and the like. So I think there is a way for us to find that sweet spot in terms of activities.
And it tends to be, I would say, much more generalist than folks to movement. So not being the ultra-endurance athletes and probably not just being the, oh, I'm just going to pump iron, and that's what I'm going to do. I have this question with someone yesterday about, I don't need to do any cardio at all, because I do more than enough when I'm lifting weights. And I'm like, have you seen how many?
And again, drugs do conflate this a little bit. But have you seen how many Olympic lifters, power lifters, drumming to his bodybuilders, they're kicking over and dying in their 40s, like 40 to 50s? So I wouldn't be too confident about, I don't need my aerobic, quite a bit of work. I think that is my topic.
I have a friend who's a long distance runner who has a great story where there's a whole other twist to this. He went to his doctor for a checkup, just like I know physical or something. And his doctor said, wow, your resting heart rate's like 42, that's amazing. And the next day, just coincidentally, he was going to see a Chinese doctor who's traditional Chinese medicine.
And he's doctor, his pulse, and 42 is, oh my God, you're about to die. And the difference is that in the West, the idea is, your heart's in good shape because you've done these things to get it so that it beats more slowly and more vigorously. And the Chinese idea is you only have a certain number of heart beats. And so the things that you've done to train, to get to 42, means you've worn it out and you're going to be dead soon.
I don't know who's right, but man, I love the fact that it's like two totally different perspectives where you can really see, each of them has, can might have a point. Yes, you can see that at the both of the point. I mean, the research actually was the Western person which is a research question. But the research tends to point to, I mean, if you can drop your resting heart rate into 15 beats per minute, you will half your risk of stroke, cardiovascular disease, just that one change, controlled for many other things, controlled diet, and so on, stress, stress, that you're dealing with sleep deprivation, all this control, just dropping that, reducing that.
Of course, the ways you can reduce it, which are probably very extreme. So even for myself, my resting heart rate used to be about 58 beats a minute, when I wasn't doing anything at all. Now I'm in the late 30s, so I can go down to 34. And believe me, when I've been monitored by my doctor, my doctors are always like, oh my goodness, yeah, yeah, we need to check for a riff me, as we can find, and I last, so I've had my heart checked regularly for the last 10 to 12 years, once that became a lot lower.
And I last had checked this year again, 24-hour ECG, EKG, I think you guys called it, so the 24-hour EKG, all sorts of other tests, and fortunately at the end of it, it's like, this is a really well conditioned heart, no issues, everything's good, I keep doing what you're doing. And I don't do any endurance, ultra-injurant type of work. I do mainly, you know, an aerobic, most of my cardio is walking at a brisk pace, so I do quite a lot of brisk walking as well, as kind of normal pace walking, and I feel that's a much safer, lower stress form of cardio that probably suits me. I was at the doctor years ago, when I was actually training more, before I started a shoe company, and I went to the doctor, and they wanted to do it, EKG on me, and it was one of these things that it's a little portable device, it's really fast, it is like 10 seconds, and that's all they need to get it, and they said, yeah, we need a new machine in here, because in that 10 seconds, you're heart's only beating twice, and so we don't have any info, I said, I said, I've been having this thing, where when I stand up, I get a little light head, and doctors, yeah, you're resting pulses 40, your blood pressure is 110 over 70, what do you expect?
I said, yes, yes, good point. So yeah, I mean, I think whether you believe more on the Chinese side or Western medicine, I think it's just great that we can now have these additional diagnostic tools that can let us know that, hey, actually, you don't need a pacemaker, oh, you haven't burnt yourself out, and you have really good blood pressure, and you have a really good resting heart rate, and you respond well to stress, because that's the other thing, if you don't have a stress response, and you're completely chilled even when it's dangerous, that's so interesting, a friend of mine, he had a company years ago, he was the first person to do this, they had a nephrene vest that they had a bunch of sensors in, so they could do real time data sensing over 24 or 48 hours, just how far back it was, a palm pilot, and so you have a palm pilot in that probably about recording data, and so there was this whole theory then about heart rate variability, and that you want your heart to be able to go up and go down, just as you breathe in, your pulse goes up, as you breathe out, it slows down, just down alone, it was the first time they were able to measure that in real time, and the idea was that if you had no heart rate variability, then that was a bad sign. People had developed apps for training, especially for distance runners, to let you know if you've recovered enough after a run, is when your heart rate variability kicks back into being more than once it's being flat, where as you breathe in and out, it stays the same, and when they developed this, they had one of the guys, I think, in their company, just put it on to test it, and he had zero heart rate variability, and they said, you need to get to the doctor now, and they got out of the doctor, didn't EKG, I think you have a double bypass the next day, it was, you know, it was a touch and go, and I think it's a really cool point you're making is, people don't appreciate that you are supposed to respond to stress, it is supposed to suck somewhat, and you're supposed to be able to deal with that appropriately, and come back from that, that whole sine wave of how you're responding is the important part, not this imagined totally chill, nothing affects me away we go. Yeah, I mean, that's not a survival mechanism, that, you know, again, it makes me just, it makes me wonder about some of the negatives of the mindfulness movements, transatlantic meditation, is it's very easy to be chilled out in a dark room, you know, listening to Enya, incense burning, ice closed, you know, dripping water, running water, you know, like, it's easy to be chilled in that snow, you know?
Yeah, that's like, if something was to go down, you don't want to be the person's like, I'm just gonna stay here and just stay chilled, no, you want to, it's like, I've gotta go, we've gotta take action, no, no, so the flight response is, it's a really important part of the stress response, yeah? Well, some people, for some people, I had a very die-hard, it's a fun way of saying that this raised meditation practice from the time I was about 18 till I was 38, and to develop the skill of knowing how to chill out is good, I was doing biofeedback back in 74, and I could do some really crazy things, I could change my heart rate, my blood pressure quickly, I could change my brain waves, pretty significantly, muscle tension, temperature, all these pretty wacky things that most people think are impossible or really, really difficult to master, but with the right feedback, you can do it pretty quickly. But so getting that skill of being able to come down is nice, but frankly for me, the thing that was the biggest, how to put it as set, if you will, for being able to do that was not caring if I felt like crap. Yeah, yeah, I suppose, I mean, I can see the merits and the benefit of that, and of course, we do have a lot of background noise, the steep stress and certainly ways that we can, we should be able to maintain mindfulness and balance and be present.
But yeah, but stupid, you're stupid, you can't be smart when you're done. Yeah, exactly. The only thing that's changed for me, the biggest thing that's changed is I stopped beating myself up with the idea that I should be feeling or doing something different than what I'm feeling or doing. So if I'm stressed out, because all hell is broken loose, that's the way it is until it passes, and it doesn't turn into a bigger thing.
Because my typical response when something major goes wrong is screaming yell and run around for a few minutes and be completely non-functional in terms of coming up with a good solution. And then as soon as I come down, I'm all about spending the problems, solutions. But that initial response is just running around my hair and I got a lot of hair around fire. So that's the way it is, you know, another deal.
Yeah, and attitude, and attitude, response, it forces to be focused, it helps us to maintain resilience. You know what's interesting? It's forcing me to focus. So I mentioned to you before we started this, a couple weeks ago I had a kidney stone.
And for people who know about these things, it was almost 6.4 millimeters, which is a big deal. It was the most excruciating thing I have ever felt in my life. But the thing that was so fascinating is that for brief moments, I couldn't do this continuously, but for brief moments, if I could, if I wasn't trying to find a way to not feel the excruciating pain, if I could really just dive into the sensation of you, it was so all encompassing. It was so big that it was oddly euphoric for brief moments.
And then it would go back to Jesus, you know, I mean, just herbal pain. But like there was these pieces where I would literally get lost in the sensation and have no frame of reference for whether it wasn't pleasant, even it was just, it was so all encompassing, there was nothing else, which was fascinating. And you can't get there, a friend of mine actually, he was one of the first Western meditation teachers, he unfortunately died a number of years ago. His idea is that meditation is actually an artificial process of trying to recreate the focus that you get when you're in pain.
Because when you get that painful thing, and it lets you focus like that, it's you can't do it any other way, and there's a healing component to that kind of attention. And so his idea is meditation is just to fake that and get the closest thing you can without wanting to kill yourself. And so, and he's a whole thing he developed around that. That's really interesting.
Yeah, I mean, I tried to bring that focal point around, if we're moving point of view, mindful movements in the child at play. So a child at play, regardless of how busy the environment is, whatever's happening, whatever the intensity in terms of physical intensity, they are mindful. They're completely in the present. They're completely in it.
So I would say, this is just from my focal point that play is a great enabler of this mindful, nothing else matters, what's happening right now. It's not even the end, who cares about your result? This feels good now, and that's all that matters. And there's that compression of time.
Five hours can seem like it's only a couple of minutes that are far enough, all the vice versa. So I was only five minutes, but in a present way. So I think most of what we do in the 21st century, unfortunately, is a supplement or a substitute from what would have happened naturally, whether it's for pain management, whether it's for fitted activity interventions. And so we're trying to blame the best of the past, with the best of the present and the understanding of the present.
And so for me, play has been my way of getting there. That'll be my pathway. And we did say more about what you do with that. And I want to see if you can frame it in this context.
This is a conversation that I had way back when people do talk about what we did when we were hunter-gatherers. I go, yeah, but we're not walking back and forth to the river to get stones to make a house any longer. We're not having to walk 25 miles to get food and carrying an envelope back on our shoulders and then chilling out for two days. We're not finding a giant thing of honey where we drink gallons of it and then don't eat for three days.
So we can't really, and we're not running to something to make it food or away from something but things weird food where we get the whole hormonal response. And I say, the difference there is like, look, when I train as a sprinter, I get a little sore maybe the next day. But then I do one race for 12 seconds and I'm done for four days. Whole different thing, training versus racing, same thing if you're food or wanting to become food or not wanting to become food.
So talk to me about what you're doing with human beings, with regard to play and in the context of what really is, what we can replicate and what we really can because it's just not the same scenario. Yeah, well, I mean, it's all modeling for sure. It's all trying to create these almost algorithms to represent what we know anthropologically, what we can observe in present day hunter-gatherers, what move patterns, the volumes, the durations, intensities. But I think why I feel my approach of looking at primal movement differs is because the imagination piece, the play piece, the creativity piece, which tries to recreate some of these scenarios.
So of course, I can't put myself back into me being chased by a sabative tiger. But when I'm sprinting, I'll give an example of my approach to sprinting now. I will play a game called Chase the Jagger. I will see a jogger.
I'll see a jogger, you know, a couple of hundred meters away. And I'm like, I'm just going to go. I'm going to mine that Scazell. I'll stop a few meters behind him, so I don't try in them.
Like, that's what I'll do. And I'll create, I tell you what, I can run far faster in that situation. Yep. When I, you know, it feels far, I feel a much better hormonal response.
Yep. You know, there's a situation that I've created. I have to get to that target. And many times I'm like, I just can't keep up.
I'm just going to, I have to give up. I'm, no, no, no, I've got to get there. This is going to be my hunting now. I, you know, public transport is a big thing in London, of course, pedestrianized city.
And so sometimes I'll chase the bus. Right. I'll purposely miss the bus and I'll try and I'll try and sprint to the next bus stop. Not it.
You know, and people on the bus are like, they're laughing at me or are concerned for my welfare, you know, and I'm huffing and puffing. But I tell you what, you know, having a real scenario really matters is I think getting even closer to what we're trying to recreate. Rather than being, you know, right, at 2 p.m. I'm going to do a 200 meter sprint session in a far next training.
But you know, so for me, I've tried to create a structured unstructured approach to how I play and how I move, then how I interact with the environment. When I lived in Manhattan and rode my bicycle, I had the opposite of that where I was the gazelle and the cars were chasing me. And for a long time, it was really fun. But then when I committed to moving away from Manhattan, I realized that part of what I was good at was just suppressing sheer terror.
But I was going to say, he's pretty terrifying. But when you're being chased, that's actually what's going on. And that was when I was in the best shape of my life. Yeah, no, I'm not surprised.
But yeah, you know, you can create, if I'm doing a group session, we'll create that scenario. And again, it's like being a kid. When you're a kid, chasing games, no one teaches kids to play chasing games. It's part of their DNA.
You know, it's like dog's playing chase. Kids will do it. It's a universal game. And I think this is part of what stays with us.
That's what stayed in our DNA. And so, right, we can't replicate all of that environment from the past. But a lot of it is still within us. And as kids, we recreate it.
Kids will still continue to crawl, even though they can start walking properly. Right? They will crawl over things, even though it may not be socially acceptable to climb. Right?
But they will, it's like, no, we want to do this. We want to jump. We want to climb. We want to carry.
You know, let's pick it back, carry. They have no context for that. Just like, they don't see adults doing that, right? Like carrying each other necessarily.
But it's like, no, let's just do this. So I just try to recreate that nostalgic aspect of my childhood, recognizing that most of it is not just about childhood, but it's part of our human behavior that as adults, we suppress very well. Right. And for most of the animal kingdom, they continue that.
You know, big cats will still continue to play. They don't just go, ah, we're big cats now. We don't play anymore. They'll be able to play, you know, not the same sort of frequency.
Right. So I'm not going to continue to play. And they'll still have very dynamic and vigorous and powerful movements, graceful movements, even into old age. And so I feel, for me, if I try to maintain that youthful exuberance, perspective movements, that is childlike, not childish.
Because I understand the importance now as a man, I'm like, no, this is really important. You know, I'm not doing this to this role around, I'm going, hey, isn't this fun? Whoa! Yeah, it might be fun, but I'm not getting, I want to improve my health and my longevity and my mental focus and cognition.
So I've got to be serious about this. And so when you look at kids, I'm like kids, now I'm like, kids, most of the time when they play, they're very serious about it. They are, they're looking at risk, they're evaluating risk, they're looking at conflict resolution, they're creating rules, they're, you know, they're changing things up on the fly, because obviously boring, it's mixed things up. You know, isn't it better when the adults are around, because we can do some stuff that adults would never do?
You know, that's part of their play experience. And a lot of it isn't laughing and joking. Right. A lot of it is very serious, really focused.
Let's concentrate how are we going to do this, how are we going to work together? If you don't play, play a part, you're going to be left out. You know, we're social creatures. Do you want to be part of this community or do you want to be the bully?
You know, it's so funny. I watched something on YouTube last night. It was a world parkour championships and there was a whole lot of play involved in it, of course, but you know, it was incredibly lacking. Something you just mentioned that I hadn't thought of is nobody was, no one was ever doing anything together.
It's all just an individual thing and it's competition and it's fun, but no one's doing anything together. And that would be a whole amazing twist to that. Yes, because the most, the pureest form of play is when it involves other people. Yeah.
Right. It's not, yeah, of course you can play by yourself, but you know, it's much better when you're, you're creating, you know, you're involved in creating the play space, the play environment, the ruleset, you equalize because you're new to the game. So it's making it a bit easier for you. Let's change the rules on the fly.
No, we haven't got the right equipment. Who cares? Let's do, you know, so I do think for adults, even though we've got all of these, like OCR racing, you know, for example, where they go, OK, we do have some teamwork elements. You know, that is part of that, right?
Or crossfit way. We've got a group of great camaraderie, but most of it is still about individual, individual gets the medal. Yeah. You know, I'll help you, but if I'm going to lose by helping you, maybe, maybe not.
So we've got a lot to learn from. I would say from childhood play and the true play ethos. So what can other examples that I can do in a final play workshop with people to get them into this? So I play a version of tag called Final Play Tag, which is like a modified kids game where you play partners or as a group and you'll just pick certain parts of the body.
You can, you can tag and you'll play simultaneously. And for some it might start quite combative, but then when you realize you almost like a one to have a rally and so most of it are laughing immediately and they're getting out of breath and they're, you know, it's really challenging on a balancing coordination. But if you can get laughter instantly and you're enjoying the process, but you're still getting all the ticking all the boxes, the fitness boxes, the components of fitness boxes, that's what I'm trying to recreate. So animal movements are a big part of that, you know, different types of crawls and jumps.
And you can create this environment where you go. It just doesn't matter what people are like, you know, what are people wondering what I'm doing. And, you know, you finish your session, you finish your game and you feel, you don't just feel great because of the endorphin rush, you know, the being swamped with, you know, endo, buenoids because it's like your body's like, oh, I'm in pain. I don't worry about it here.
So endorphins to suppress the pain. You feel great because you've felt great for the entire time. Right. You've been, you've been laughing, you've been joking, you've been releasing octotosis and you've been maintaining eye contact.
You recognize that collaboration and cooperation matters and the competitive element drops significantly. So, so that's something we've lost, I would say, is adults. We've lost the ability to truly just play the game. Right.
And, you know, we'd be great to see. And then if you ever see, if you watch Wimbledon, for example, tennis and sometimes, you know, plays have been knocked out and they'll be doing training sessions with some of the guys who are still going through and they'll just, you know, they'll start doing trick shots, right, you know, that they'll, they'll like the ball bounce twice who cares, you know, they're not trying to ace each other on a smash, each other on a serve and they'll have these incredible rallies and they're laughing and joking. And so that's, that's what I'm trying to create. Yeah.
Almost creating this rally mentality. It's like, you know, you're playing soccer, you know, just take the ball up, whatever it takes, you know, everyone just, you know, the ball kind of touch the ground. What you can, yeah. Yeah.
What you're, what you're striving is interesting because it's not, it's not that the competition has been removed, but it's, but it's sort of serving a different purpose. Um, yes, it's not that it's not the, or it's a different type of competition. You're not trying to win slash beat someone, even if you're, you know, when you're playing tag, there's definitely, but it has a different flavor. Like, you know, if you're working with people to keep the ball up, I mean, that's, there's definitely a goal.
You're trying to do it, but you're also doing it and rooting for everyone. You're trying to be helpful for everyone at the same time. Yes. Yes.
So you're trying to keep, you know, it's like dogs play fighting. You could have a boxer dog, great day and a two hour and they can play fight. Right. And the boxer knows if I just smacked the two hour, the first time we, we start play fighting it's gay.
That's the end of the game. Yeah. Right. I'm not, I'm not the Toronto out.
That's it. If the box of rains in or the great game rains in the Toronto can still go 100% and they keep that game going. That's what it's still competitive. It's still, you know, it's still part of that, but it's not the main aim.
Right. And, and so yeah, pretty much it's the activity, not so much. It's the attitude that you bring towards the game that you bring towards the movement pattern, which is important. Well, it's modified games to make them in activities to make them more playful, but to still give you the, the result you want from fitness.
I'm thinking of, I'm comparing this to the things that are popular where on the one hand is there, the comp, the competitive part is completely out. I'm thinking something like Zumba, which I refer to as new age aerobics. And, and, and, and I'm not trying to denigrate it really because it's, it can be terribly fun. Just, you know, not my thing, but I know people who totally love it.
But again, there's nothing, there's, there's not a real challenge there. There's certainly no competitive aspect versus these act opposite like, you know, boot camp classes where on the one hand, hey, congratulations, you're out on the grass on the other hand, you're just at the gym with someone yelling at you. And so, what you're describing is something that is, I don't want to call it an amalgam certainly, but it's, it's a different point that, that encapsulates and encompasses a number of things from each and away that I love much more. Anyway, that's a big setup for what do you think it's going to take for more and more people to have that primal play experience or to make that something where people see that as a uniquely valuable alternative with a whole different set of, what's the word I'm looking for attributes?
It's not a whole different set of, of the bunch of things that you get, you can't get any other way and whatever that word is like that I can't find. I'm going to take to move this idea so compelling forward. It's really the case of people experiencing it. So I've travelled a lot, I've been exposed to multiple audiences from the most serious, you know, elite athletes to those who've been very sedentary and captions to those who have mobility issues and, you know, very young, too much older adults.
And for most people, once they experience this, it's because it's part of us, fun movement, enjoyable movement is part of us. It's just kind of people just, you know, have this kind of urecon when they go, hold in a second, I've got, you know, it's like a bit like muscle memory, right? You know, you've all got this muscle memory for a formerly fit or athletic or deep track at school or whatever. And it doesn't take much risk to get that back.
We've all got this play memory. We've all got this fun and joyful movement that pretty much was condensed in most of our childhoods and we tried to recreate it in adulthood and we fail miserably. The closest we probably get to it actually is at maybe at a wedding and everyone's had a drink and people, you know, get on the dance floor and they couldn't care less what they look like and, you know, and that's probably, you know, and it's like, you know, you get used to the eight-year-old Granny who, like, moving like she's 16, you know, you haven't got a chance about her chair for years and she's all of a sudden, oh my gosh, my favourite song's on and she walks on with a walking stick but she throws it away and starts dancing for a bit and, you know, like, so it's almost like getting adults to appreciate that in a child is always there. You're so right though about the wedding thing.
I'm just telling flashbacks. My mom was famous for what's the Russian dance thing where you're squatting and you're squatting and you're like, whatever. It's like, it's like, I think dancing, I think it's in the cossack or something. Yeah, so my mom could do that and, like, up into her sixties, you know, and every time it was a wedding, there she was.
And, you know, she was never active, never did anything else but at a wedding and she didn't even need a couple drinks. She just needed to know the barest amount of encouragement. So, yeah, so people having fun in a community sense. So, yeah, so I'm spreading the word in relation to this.
I'm getting people to experience this. I'm writing books. I have courses. I'm training trainers.
I have a certification programme. So it isn't just relying on me, you know, there are other disciples who believe that this is an important kind of intervention and is different enough to say, you know, not disborrowing anything else but it's like, you do want to have a love affair with movement which is more love than hate and that you can do anywhere and you recognise that you are the best equipment you have and wherever you are at is the best gym you are in, that's all you need. And if you want joy from it from movement, this is what we are offering. And if you want not only joy but also gains, you know, which are not just physical, of course, but if you want physical gains and you want the mental benefits and stress reduction and interaction with other social interactions with other humans and you want to go, you know, what, I just bet three hours moving but it felt like five minutes.
Tick, tick, tick. And to be clear, it's not like we're suggesting that this is the only thing that people should be doing. You know, it's part, like you were saying, we were talking about beginning. It's part of being, you know, the whole profile.
Yeah, but I mean, but it's part of the sort of, let's call it the whole fitness package. I mean, for me, one of the things that I like about sprinting, it's funny. My mind is not very linear. If you look at my office, there's just a bunch of piles of things.
I'm not, organization is not my strongest suit. But when it comes to physical things, I'm the exact opposite. I love things that are precise. Sprinting is very precise.
I love target shooting. Like archery, when I was a kid, I did target shooting, rifle shooting. Things where it really, like at the end of a race, when someone says, how do you do my answers? Do you want to do excuses or do you just want the time?
Because you never get it perfect. And I love that there's something about the intermittent reinforcement of never being able to get it perfect and you're always trying at the same time to turn that off and just roll around and have fun. I'm not trying to say that's what primal play is. But the flip side of doing things that are just fun, that's just another flavor.
It's a different, a different scuba ice cream. And having all of that is. Exactly. Yeah.
Exactly. It's like having a small board buffet or do you want to go to a five star mixture then rest one, you know, they're both serving food. You know, they can both serve very nutritious food. It's just a different way of getting there.
So if people want to have this experience and I encourage them to do so, tell humans where they can track you down or track, primal play down. Yeah. The best place is probably my blog, which is primalplay.com. I'm known as the fitness explorer.
So you can search on social media channels, Instagram, Twitter, on YouTube for the fitness explorer. I have a book called Animal Moves, which was Amazon bestseller. Great book. UK and the US, thank you.
Thank you, Stephen. And also probably the best primer, 16 or 17 minutes or so, is my TED talk. Why working out isn't working out. And I think that probably covers the good stuff.
Yeah. It's a good introduction to how you can really touch me. I was going to ask anything we left out, but as it were sort of coming out of my mouth, I realized there's nothing we'd never been to agenda. And certainly we covered a bunch of topics that we never expected because I don't plan any of this.
But is there anything else that you want to add before we call it a day and thank people for joining us? Yeah. I suppose if you want to find out more about the importance of play, I do have a free ebook available at my website, myprinoplay.com. And I also have a significant evidence base.
So if you're interested in some of the science, not only about play, but also about physical activity and the health benefits, physical and cognitively, then come on to my website and there's more enough to keep you interested. And a lot of things I really appreciate about you is that this isn't just some idea that you cooked up and away you go, just trying to convince people without anything underpinning it. Not that people need the evolutionary underpinning, but to see that it's there, some people actually do. They really need to justify it in some way.
But also, it's a nice thing in the same way that we're talking about different physical activities being valuable. To have both the physical and the cognitive piece playing together, it's just helpful so that you don't feel like you're just goofing around. There's really a there there. It connects you to history in an unusual way.
It connects you to, I mean, I don't want to sound overly new-aging is wacky way, but it really does connect you to humanity in a way that you may get on your own just from doing the play. I was going to say the word, but it's doing the play because you feel it. But to actually understand that as well, it just gives it an extra depth. Like the physicist Richard Feynman, someone said, I hate to be you because you just see everything as like mathematics.
He goes, oh, no, no, no, you understand. For me, it's so much richer. When you see a glass of water, you see a glass of water. I'm just amazed to see through molecules and around atoms and how the light is reflected, sometimes I can't even take out the glass because I'm so awestruck by a glass of water.
And you know, same thing. Yes. And just as I was in closing, it's attributed to Einstein, but Einstein did say, play is the highest form of research. So I think for somebody like Einstein to have said this is also pretty remarkable.
Yeah, I'd say it's a lot of context, but I get your point. Yeah. But it is attributed to him and I suppose it's just describing. I think what he meant by that is that so much of what scientific research is an intellectual form of play because you're really just towing with these ideas until something starts to sift out of not being linear, not being rigid, of really just enjoying where it's going to go and how it's going to go.
And there are some rules that you're playing with. So I would say that what he's talking about is let's call it the intellectual version exactly what you've been talking about. Yes, exactly. I totally agree.
It enables you to be a better scientist because you're constantly thinking about what's outside of my present consciousness. What are the known unknowns? What do I know that I don't know? And how can I start playing in that realm and see what I discover?
What is the sort of... The physicists when they're about to discover some new thing or examine some new thing that they haven't been able to look at before, half of them are going, oh god, I hope I'm wrong. Because if they're wrong, everything is upset. Everything is open for reinterpretation, which is incredibly exciting and very playful.
And boy, to have it especially at that level with our current understanding of the way the world works, to get something totally new would be just, oh man, what blast that'll be. It's this morning again with your toy that you wish for as a kid, I suppose, and you're back in the morning. It's just another year. Oh my goodness, what am I going to get this year?
What's it going to happen? What technology has led to this device about having fun of me? It's been a real pleasure, a chance you've been pushed. I know that's terrible.
So, well, A, thank you again. B, I hope people do take you up on it and go to primalplay.com. In signing off, thank you all for being here, of course, and being part of the movement movement. Whereas I like to say, we are creating a movement movement, a movement of getting people to understand that natural movement is the obvious, better, healthy choice.
The way natural food is. And I want to thank Daryl for being one of the people who's contributing to this news, like guys, if you will. And that is a phrase that is way too ridiculous to have said that there came out of my face anyway. So if you want to be part of the movement movement and I would love it if you are, go to jointhemovementmovement.com.
You can find it all the ways that you can interact with us. If you have any questions or comments or want to make a recommendation for anything on the show, you can also just email move at jointhemovementmovement.com. And of course, do all those things to review and share and like and click on the subscribe button and hit the bell on YouTube. As I like to say, if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe.
Thank you so much. And until next time, live life, be first.