If you have foot pain or heel pain, what many people call plantar fasciitis, the treatments that you probably will hear about could be the worst thing you could ever do to not only get rid of that problem, but for foot health in general, we're going to find out more about that on today's episode of the movement podcast, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about how to move efficiently, effectively, and joyfully and to run, to play, to dance, to do all those things that bodies are meant to do. And we start everything with defeat, because feet are your foundation. And we call it the movement movement because we are creating a movement about movement. We're trying to make natural movement the obvious, better, healthy choice that we natural food currently is.
I am your host Stephen Sashan and from zero issues.com. And if you like what you hear here, how even if you don't just when you get a chance to go over to join with a movement movement.com, you can find all the past episodes, all the different ways you can interact with us. And of course, I'd love it if you subscribe and share and review and like and hit the bell if you're on YouTube and all those things you know how to do. As I like to say, if you want to be part of this tribe, please subscribe.
And when I say the tribe, I mean this kind of literally because what's going to make natural movement a thing is a grassroots groundswell of activity, not just some big top down thing from some giant corporations, because frankly, they're the ones who are trying to make sure that you don't let your feet and body move naturally because they've made a career out of doing the opposite of what we're going to be talking about today with my guest Dr. Steve Geng. Hello, Steve. How are you, man?
Hello, Steven. Good to see you. I'll be the Steven you to see that'll make like easier for everybody. And so do me a huge favor tell people who the hell you are and what the hell you're doing here.
So as you said, my name is Dr. Dr. Steve Geng, I'm a chiropractic physician, holistic doctor out here in Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I've been practiced for going on 22 years.
I pretty much practice complementary sports medicine, in other words, like holistic treatments for our evaluation and treatments for lots of people with athletic injuries from weekend warriors to kids to professional athletes of different calibers and different sports. And I sort of run a family-based practice where I treat a lot of people with autoimmune conditions and hormonal imbalances, thyroid, thyroid, hormonal adrenal hormone issues, a little bit of everything under the sun. Well, and since Chapel Hill is kind of like the boulder of North Carolina, I imagine you also have people who like sprained a chakra or, you know, for both of you. Yeah, we're not as bad as Asheville North Carolina, which is about three hours west out in the mountains.
Pretty much anything goes there. I'm a snack dab or I used to be my office. I opened my new office. I got about a year and a half ago and I'm closer to the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill now where before I was snacked out into Duke of UNC.
So it was more medical orientated. But yeah, we still did. So we're pretty open-minded here. Have we had the conversation that I went to Duke?
I didn't know that. Oh yeah, I went to Duke. And it was a long ago enough that basically between Durham and Chapel Hill, the only thing that was there was the Blue Cross building and what's the what's the was the only fancy hotel? The Sienna.
No, no, no. It might have been called the Omnia. Definitely was. I was a little fancy fancy hotel that once a semester we had enough money to go for their Sunday brunch.
Okay. And we ate like we weren't going to eat for the rest of the week. And what amazed me being in Boulder, which is another college town where everyone is way richer than we were back then. That's how people eat like every night here.
But that was like a big deal for us to spend 25 bucks to eat as much as a college student could eat. And we ate that place out of house and home. It was a blast. Oh, there was another place.
There was a jazz club called Stevens After All. Another Steven. It was a guy who realized that the jazz musicians, they were going from DC to Atlanta and had nowhere to go in between. Just in that same strip between Durham and Chapel Hill.
And I performed tabletop magic. I worked for free and for tips. And he gave me a meal. This is like a five-star restaurant.
So I worked there twice a week and also ate well from that food is a theme in my life apparently. And then every now and then I got to open for some of the acts I opened for like Ed James. And you did magic? Yeah, I did magic.
I could picture you doing that. It was a sweet performer. And so I did a bunch of stuff at the Apple Chill. I don't know if that still exists.
A big street fair in Chapel Hill. And then tabletop stuff mostly when I was just even so I'm having flashbacks. I never knew that about you. I've known each other for maybe 10 or 15 years now.
That's not like I walk around, you know, handing out my CV to people. It's a weird one. It's basically it's the resume of someone who should have gotten riddle in as a kid. I was too old for that.
In fact, how we met just to let people know was we were basically just on a bunch of email threads with the people that I think of as the smart people in the barefoot natural movement for natural running game until we finally finally had a chat. And there's a handful of people on that list that I've happily had chat in on the podcast, Mark, who's Ela Irene Davis, etc. And so and I thought of that crowd as like the only smart people on the planet about moving and running. So truly have you here.
Now in a related note, you have a your website is also a nickname that I think Mark gave you. Is that true? Actually, Mark's friend, the guy named who unfortunately has passed away but started to triathlete magazine back in the day, guy named Bill Katoski. I just went through it two years ago.
Yeah, that was a good guy. And yeah, he actually came up with a name just because one day we were talking about running and things like that. And at that time, I was only wearing socks in the office. Kind of got rid of the shoes, even in the winter.
And today, I actually don't wear anything in the office on my feet. It's completely bare because I was ruining socks and they were just too hot. So I kept the name of the sock and dock, but barefoot in the office. And most of the day, just like you, actually.
Yeah, people, people find it entertaining when they walk in and half of our offices in zero shoes and the other half are walking on barefoot. And they go, well, you guys are serious. Like, yeah, this is the real thing. Yeah, and it's funny because I mean, that's what my patients say too, because we have a sign in our front door that says, you know, please leave your shoes out here or as you enter if you want to get more inside or keep the spiders out.
Yeah, we're in the office. It might be even better if you had like a wood burning snow or something. So please burn your shoes here. Yeah, I think it's something we actually wanted to do.
I'm a thing that I call swap your flop, where you come in with a pair of flip flops or shoes and we put them in a giant meat grinder and take all the dust and you know, the more we collect, the more we donate to some worthy cause. I always want to do that with orthotics, like have a big orthotics meat grinder because you and I have, you know, gone after orthotics for years. Oh man, yeah, we'll get into that. Well, actually, we will talk about that.
But before we do, since it is the movement, movement podcast, I always like to try and start, although start usually means 15 minutes and 20 minutes in with our conversations, but start with some movement, something that people who are listening or watching can do. Is there anything you can think of that you would like to share for the humans who are part of our little conversation here? Yeah, well, so you and I, and just everybody knows you hit me with this like right away. So I haven't had more than a few seconds to think about it.
Oh, well, yeah. Just okay. Well, and just to let people know the amount of preparation that goes into doing, having these conversations is as close to zero is humanly possible. So yes, I gave you no warning right before we started 30 seconds earlier, I said think it's a movement thing that you'd like to share.
So here's what I'm going to share because I'll just be able to do this standing up. And what I've been doing with people who have an imbalance, which most people do with their breathing diaphragm, which is up here by our chest. A lot of people think their diaphragm is like, although they're rips here, but diaphragm, I tell people it's kind of like bra level or nipple level, and it's a little bit higher up than what people think. It's way up here.
Yeah. And you know, when you breathe in, your diaphragm obviously descends. It goes towards your pelvic floor. And likewise, your pelvic diaphragm, which people still call the pelvic floor both are accurate terms, should also descend.
And then when you exhale, the pressure releases and your diaphragm comes back up and your pelvic diaphragm should basically correlate with that. So you should have a consistency between your pelvic diaphragm and your diaphragm, your chest breathing diaphragm when one goes up, the other goes up and descends descends. So as you breathe in, a lot of people's pelvic diaphragm doesn't correlate with their breathing diaphragm. And what somebody can do right now is just sort of stand up and see how much they can touch their toes without bending their knees and kind of get a pre-empost here.
Like how far can you go down and touch your toes or put your hands on the floor? It's really good. Okay. So I'm keeping my leg straight and just bending over and touching my toes.
Just like a straight leg, see how far you can bend forward, like how far your fingers go towards you to your shoes or some people can put their hands flat. Okay. So I've got my palms end up about and inch off the ground. That's good.
So what we're going to do is basically, we're going to have people take their thumbs and put it on their navel here and then drop their fingers to the top of their pubic bone. And your pelvic diaphragm pretty much starts like right in between there. So you're going to go halfway between your belly bone and your pubic bone right around in here. So maybe an interest over below your belly button depending on your body type.
Okay. And what you're going to do is you're going to push in like this. You're going to scoop down and in kind of like you're pushing almost towards your tailbone in the back of you. Yep.
And as you take a deep breath in, you're going to push it down and in and bend forward. Like down to your chest to knees again. So like you're just like you're just like you're going to push down and go down. You're going to flex your trunk forward.
If you take a deep breath in. So it's three things. It's push down and in deep breath in through your nose and then bend forward. So like a three second count lean forward, press in with ideally both fingers.
And if you might just be able to do one right and go as far as you can like try and get your chest as close to your knees as you can. Drop your head. So you're going all the way down and pushing it hard. You know, as long as it's comfortable, don't hurt yourself if you've got some gut pain right.
And then as you come up, you're scoop up and breathe out through your nose. So it's going to look, push it down and in and then as you come up, you can see my fingers. And then as you come up, you scoop up and breathe out. So you're basically going to do five of those.
So you're going to breathe in, push in, go all the way down, chest to your knees as much as you can. And as you come up, you breathe out through your nose and scoop back up and pull up. So it's down in your floor and then pull up like this. And you're basically going to do five of those.
And after you do that, you're going to see how much further you can go towards the floor. So my experience with this is for whatever reason, I lead it to one, three more. Yeah, I should put my palms on the floor. So just from doing two.
So this is something I came up with about seven or eight months ago, because my kids were making fun of me that I couldn't put my fingers on the floor. I could really touch my toes. So I did about five or six of these thinking, okay, I'm going to breathe in really hard. So when you breathe in hard, your diaphragm goes down, your pelvic diaphragm goes down.
So I was pushing my pelvic diaphragm down as I flexed forward. And then as you come up, you scoop up like this, and then like you're pulling towards your belly button and you exhale, always through your nose, into your nose, out through your nose and you stand back up. And basically, after I did that, I literally put my palms on the floor. And the best thing about it is it didn't go away.
It stayed for like several weeks. And even when it regressed a little bit, I never lost, I only lost like 10 or 15. So since what many people think of this flexibility is actually just a neural pattern thing, your brain telling you what it thinks your body can do. What do you think is happening here?
What's getting reset? That's because it's not creating flexibility, it's not making your muscles suddenly longer. It's obviously doing some neurological thing that allows us to happen. What do you think is happening?
Well, let's say this way, it is in a way creating flexibility. It's not stretching anything out, but it is creating a flexibility due to creating more of a balance between the tension that is most likely there between the two diaphragms, right? So we're basically neurologically resetting, have the diaphragm pattern. So when you breathe in, like maybe my diaphragm was doing this one, I was breathing my pelvic diaphragm wasn't descending.
So then I breathe in, maybe my diaphragm was coming down, my pelvic diaphragm was stuck. And then as I exhale, they weren't coming. So I was resetting this pattern of breathing in, descending, breathing out, pressure released, asin. It would be interesting just for the sake of being adored and curious about these things, to do some sort of EMG test, electromagnet, basically testing what your muscles are doing to see what muscles are turning on or off differently before and after this.
Because there's definitely things maybe, maybe piriformis, maybe hip flexors, maybe when you're just. And really when you get into your frame, so as early actus, and those deep, but some people are in memory of the anatomy, or like your jammai, your octreting muscles. But you're so as is really a big link between your pelvic diaphragm and your breathing diaphragm. A lot of people think of so as your hip flexors, the majority of it does attach to your lumbar spine, but actually you're so as special connections go up and wrap around to your diaphragm, what's called the crux of your diaphragm, and actually wrap around where you're at soft, get in your diaphragm, come together in the hiatus.
So some people can actually have pelvic problems resulting in heartburn and reflexes and stomach issues, because it's being balanced to your diaphragms. Oh, that's really interesting. I'm amazed at all the neurological connections in your abdominal cavity. And I say this because two weeks ago, I had a massive kidney stone, and the way it was referring, the pain that it was referring, where I was feeling it, was so different than where things were actually going on.
And I found that really, well, now fascinating, then confusing and extraordinarily painful. But it's interesting to see how these things work. It reminds me, there's a friend of mine, a doctor named Tom Raven, who's a completely crazy, wonderful human being who does prolotherapy, where you're injecting, where he basically is sticking needles into your ligaments, and tendons to initiate a healing response. And he treated me once, and I think he was working on my shoulder, and I felt something go down my arm, and I made some comment about him hitting a nerve.
And he said, no, there's no nerves where I'm sticking a needle. But you have to think about it. When you were developing as a going from a fetus to a person, your fingers were basically coming out of your shoulder, and then it turned into an arm. So there's something that's going on there that we haven't really know a whole lot about that's getting these sensations.
And that's a very common issue, especially with people with sciatic pain. And they say, oh, I'm irritating my sciatic nerve, I have pain in my hamstring or something like that. But a lot of times it's actually not your sciatic nerve or in your case, you felt like an urban arm, but it's an embryological origin. And the name for that is called chylicogenous refered pain.
It's an embryologically refered pain pattern. Oh, that's right. It's really crazy to think about that, because actually there's a very, I don't want to put this one delicately. There's a whole theory about why people have foot fetishes.
This is not where I expected this conversation to go. And it's related to what you just said, because at some point your feet were coming out of your pelvis, right next to your genitals. And if you look on the brain map, where your brain is receiving sensations right next to your genitals is your feet. And so, and there was a guy who had gangrene of his penis, and they had to amputate it, which is a crazy, horrible thought.
And when you have some amputation, the nurse tend to remap, and the nurse for his genitals remapped to his toes. And so even putting on socks was apparently very erotic. Well, I'll tell you a quick patient story is one time sometimes it's crazy what women will tell me especially, but she told me, I asked her, we're talking about feet and calves, and she wrote down on her, she better calf's cramp. And usually for women that means that their calves are cramping at night while they're sleeping, they wake up with, you know, this massive locking up of their calf.
She said, no, my calf's cramp only when I orgasm. And the reason for that is because the sacral nerves that are linked to the genitals are also go right down to your calf's and your feet. So people will get a foot or they can get a calf cramp during that experience because of the connection between them. Oh, what a riot.
So there you go. Very interesting. Anyway, there's a warm up. I like it with both mildly red.
So I want to back up and take a whole different direction. So back up to your being in socks and then barefooting your office. How did the whole natural movement thing come to you? How did you become aware of it?
How did that sort of come to Aha, whatever moment? Yeah, I mean, that's a good question. I always ran in minimal issues when I started doing anime and race. I grew up as a triathlete, like even in high school, starting doing triathlons.
So, you know, I'm 46 now, so this was quarter century ago or so. And I always wore minimalist type shoes, you know, which people call like the waffle racers, right? The Nike waffle racers, that sort of thing. Well, when that you came out, I mean, the first Nike waffle trainer came out, I was about 11 or 12.
I remember putting that thing on. It was just magic. It was asothin. And it had a bunch of toast spring actually, but as a sprinter, when I leaned forward and I just put me on my toes, like, I'm not run.
So yeah, people forget that the very earliest running shoes were minimalist shoes. And that's why I was. So I wasn't wearing the super known, but I was wearing like what people were wearing, you know, maybe a 100 meter or 1600 meter race. I was wearing those.
I was wearing those. I remember I used to go get them at a local running store, people were freaked out, you know, they were kind of struring me. And he's an other sort of thing. And I just felt so much better.
And really, I got into minimalist shoes strictly because I didn't have a lot of knowledge and it wasn't a lot of information out there in the later years, early 90s. I pretty much started wearing them because of the weight difference. People started talking a lot about like, Hey, if your shoes weigh x grams lighter, you're going to be carrying this much less weight and you can run faster. That's all I cared about.
So I just looked for lighter shoes. And then I realized at high school in my first couple of years of college and the early 90s, I had every injury around to the side. I had plantbeat, salismy, bran syndrome, shin splints, anything, you know, knee pain. And I soon realized after that, even though my training got smarter at the same time, where I just wasn't always doing hard, hard, high intensity miles, but wearing the more minimalist shoes, I eventually resulted my injury, especially my craz where I did 20 Iron Man's in my 15 years, I think it was, or 12 years.
And I never had injuries at all since I started wearing minimal shoes and during those Iron Man years I've even been today. So I only got stronger, not to say I never had pain or I never had to take a day off of some training hard, but I recovered fast. And I never had an injury that kept me out of a race. I never had an injury that kept me from prolonged training.
It was more like, hey, chill out because you're training two hard types of pains. And so then a lot of the minimalist stuff started to come out later in the 90s and early 2000s, up until the 2000s, through 2010. And yeah, so that's kind of how it evolved for me. And how did that interplay with the whole chiropractor training since most chiropractors get into the idea of orthotics and posting the foot?
In fact, I don't know if this is true. This is something I heard from a friend of mine who went through physical therapy school. She said that the whole idea of building an orthotic to post the foot to put it in a particular orientation was actually invented by a chiropractor who just pulled it out of his butt totally made it up. And then it became a way for a lot of doctors to make a bunch of extra cash with an easy to do diagnostic tool or...
Yeah, I don't know if that's the history behind it. I mean, I wouldn't doubt it, but I can't say that's true or not. But yeah, I mean, that's how we're trained. I know even more so today, you know, than when I graduated 20 plus years ago.
Yeah, so it is kind of funny. Like people come into your office. They're most of them are wearing not so great shoes, especially women in high heels or thick type shoes. They make them a little bit taller.
That's just the way it is. The shoe industry. And then you do your corrections for me. It's muscle testing.
It's cracking muscle imbalances. It's a lot of work. My appointments are an hour over so longer. And then why would you want to put them back in the same shoes that perhaps caused some or needing all of their dysfunction, especially if they're the foot knee back or you can make a case for a neck issue anywhere anywhere in the body?
So it's more of an education process now in my office where people know what the shoes are and what that shoes are. And people come in. They're not just testing when the shoes on, various types of different muscle testing, which shoes on to show people, hey, you know, this shoe is doing this to your gait. Sometimes it's actually because the shoes are literally not the correct size for them.
A lot of people don't even wear the correct size. But also, you know, they're obviously wearing shoes that are over supportive to cushion are too thick, you know, the deal. So back into the chiropractic training thing. When they, when you were in school and they were talking about orthotics and post-my foot, were you just biting your tongue or were you making yourself nauseous?
Neither at that time because not that I ever got, I actually, so my story behind that is even when I was in high school, my senior high school in 1992, I had a good friend, other Massachusetts where I grew up. He was a physical therapist. He was an older old-school orthotic. So those are the ones where they used the calcium and literally made like a cast of the foot.
And I started to learn how to do those at times. I actually grew up in orthotics. I mean, I had them in my cycling shoes. Every pair of running shoes, I thought, you know, a custom orthotic sounds so awesome.
I mean, why would you not want a custom orthotic? Why would you not want something that can support your feet and help you run faster and support your body function in, you know, daily and during race? So I never was without them unless I was barefoot at the beach. So I ate that whole story up.
And then when I took orthotic classes in school, I started using them, but then that was about the same time in, you know, we're talking late 90s, early 2000s where I started to sort of see the light and really see what they were doing and how they truly affected people. So I kind of got out of them professionally as I was getting them in them. So I really was never a big orthotics reporter. But at the same instance, I wasn't obnoxious at those classes because I really was still learning about them.
Right. And, you know, like if patients came in with them, I really didn't give them a hard time at the time where today I do. Very few of my patients are still allowed to wear or at least recommend it to where the orthotics. I shouldn't even say recommend it because I'm really, there's basically a group of people who patients who I see and I mean, very small, I'm sure it's under a dozen who they like the orthotics so much and I don't see them screwing up.
I'm like, fine, if you want to leave them, go ahead. But for most people, the other 95%, they're only causing problems and they're no longer wearing orthotics. Yeah. When people ask me about them, I say the simplest thing I go, so we know that if you support any joint in your body, like if your arm and calf gets weaker, why would you think it's any different for your feet?
And what that means for your feet is you lose the ability to do something simple like balance and over time what that leaves you something like what happened to my dad a few years ago, where he's shuffling down the hall trip on a little edge, fell down, broke his head and was dead two weeks later. And I'm not trying to put the fear of God into them. I think they're going to die from wearing orthotics at the same time I kind of am because I mean, it really, it's just so amazing how if you walked into a doctor and said, you know, my neck is bothering me. So we're going to have to put you on our wrist brace for the rest of your life.
Or neck brace. I mean, I use like a cervical collar analogy all the time. Like if you hurt your neck and you need to know what that go ahead and go on a cervical collar, but you're only going to go in that for a week or so. Right.
I like doing the thing where it's completely unrelated. So it's like you're going to risk brace or the other way around. It's like, yeah, tell me how that makes any sense. And yet, you know, but feet are such an interesting thing because it is our foundation.
It is the connection. And so we do, there is a, an easy to rationalize metaphor image of like, oh, we need to have some supportive foundation. We need to really bolster that in some way. It's an easy story to tell.
But once you do any, any amount of research, it falls apart. And you know what I like to add to that is, you know, we still hear all the time, like when people train, especially, you know, uh, athletic, like muscle, skeletal system, like think free weights and that sort of thing. People always want to talk about their core, right? Like how strong is your core?
Let's work on your core. But you know, there's a growing group of anatomists out there who I've taken some pretty high-end anatomy classes in Scotland in the past couple of years. And, and these anatomists feel that your core is really starting or is, or is pretty much your feet, like your core is your feet. And if you're not strengthening your true core, being grounded to the ground by strengthening your feet, you might as well forget about the rest.
And that's true, not only if you're just trying to strengthen your feet, but literally if you're trying to strengthen your arms too. Yeah. Like your core is actually, or you can make the case that your core is actually your feet, and not your glutes abdominal region, you know, obliques. Oh, talk to, talk to power lifters for the bench press.
They say, all starts with your feet. That's good enough. Which is a crazy thing to think about when you're lying down on a bench, trying to push something off of your chest that movement is driven by your feet. And yet it is, which is a fascinating thing.
I'm not a power lifter, obviously, but I get a kick out of watching those guys and hearing how they're training because they're doing insane things. So one thing I want to transition, when people email me on a, and I get these emails on a very regular basis about plantar fasciitis, I usually point them to your website because you've written some great articles and done some great videos about that. And so like I said at the beginning of this, the treatments that are typically recommended for plantar fasciitis, from my perspective, are often the worst thing you could possibly do. Can you talk about how you kind of got hip to what plantar fasciitis is or isn't and the treatments that you are recommending for dealing with that?
Yeah. So, you know, the interesting about plantar fasciitis is actually going back to the unanimous is the unanimous, the unanimous they will actually say there's no such thing as plantar fasciitis because there's actually no fascia in your, in the bottom of your foot. Now some will say, yeah, there is some, there's 10 to 20%, but the amount of fascia that we think is truly in the bottom of your foot is that, you know, more just anatomically speaking, it's really not much or some would say any to what we're all been taught. Really what is at the bottom of your foot is what's called apanorosees and these are basically the muscle extensions of all your calf muscles, you know, your cygial, your solus, your gastroc, your peroneus, fibularis, muscles are called today.
So think of the bottom of your foot is just one giant muscular sheath, right? And you know, just like anything or a lot of injuries, when you have a problem in an area, typically it's from a different proximal or distal, either somewhere else before or after where the injury is felt like there's some muscle imbalance there. So typically with plantar fasciitis issues, what I say is one of two muscles being affected in a zuteed or tibialis posterior, which goes from just behind your tibial bone, right behind your knee cap or just below it all the way and kind of inserts and makes up the bottom of your foot, especially your medial lunge and your foot arch. And then the other one is your soleus, which is, you know, the lower part of your calf, sometimes can be your gastroc.
Pretty much if you take your calf muscles, your gastroc soleus, more so your soleus and tibialis posterior. And if there's something balanced between one of those muscles or both, you're going to end up with pain distal to that, meaning down at the bottom of your foot, either in the tibial or the arch or something like that. So really the treatment involves going back up the line and, you know, behind the tibialis muscles or the lower leg bone and looking for muscle balances between or in that area in the calf and tibialis posterior. One of two things.
So I wish I could remember the name of the guy. There was someone who lives around here who used to do a whole presentation about plantar fasciitis and he was showing some interesting MRI images where there was as actually Mark because Elle likes to point out and film appetite, likes to point out that usually it's not anitis, it's not an inflammation, it's an osis. It's an osis. Like he is showing, you know, some problems with the tissue in the foot.
But like you said, I mean, 80% of the time when someone tells me that plantar fasciitis, I can just look at them and I can spot where there's something going on typically in their bottom of their calf, stick your finger in there and they follow their knees. And I go, go roll the crap out of that, go work on that and tell me how you feel. And then usually five minutes later, it's like, wow, it's 80% better. And so it amazes me the number of people who get misdiagnosed because for whatever reason, the medical practitioner they're seeing just, I don't know what it is.
They just take it all at face value. I had this twice happened where I met someone or knew someone who said, well, I love your shoes but I can't wear them because I plantar fasciitis or I'm having surgery coming up soon. And I look at them, I go, well, I don't think I plantar fasciitis. I go, what?
I go, I go, if you really had plantar fasciitis, you couldn't do that. As I can just bounce back and forth from one foot to the other, one thing on your toes, they go, yeah, does that hurt? They go, no, as I get, if you really had plantar fasciitis, you couldn't do that. I said, lean forward while you're doing that bouncing back and forth thing and then suddenly they're running pain-free.
And what amazes me is both of them still went and had surgery anyway. Yeah. And then unfortunately with surgery, you know, to get to that area where the surgery is felt like it's needed, you're cutting through some pretty significant tissue. You know, you are really creating a giant, facial lesion and you're creating a new injury, which people don't realize.
And so you've distorted, you've created tissue dysmorphology. You know, you've created tissue problems more so than what you already had. I think we need to have, I think it's a new villain for the Avengers who's dysmorphia. I don't know what his, I don't know what his power is, but I just like to, I like dysmorphia.
It's just injuring people. That's it. That could be it. In a way that's different than what it looks like.
That's what it has to be. That's what dysmorphia does. It's like just pain right here. You have it as your foot.
You have it as your foot. Yeah, it hurts right here. So I think you do too is your feet and foot symptoms, plantar fasciitis would probably be the top of my list. Maybe at least 10, then I just a close second.
And there are a lot of times related to the soleus issues, lower calf issues. You know, your feet are a great reflection of your overall health. So people tend to think, hey, plantar fasciitis is a running problem. It's you're putting in too many miles.
You're not recovering. But you know, I see people don't run at all. And it's just you can learn too much stress. They're not eating well.
They're working too much. I'm not sleeping well. And your feet are such a great reflection of your overall health. I tell my patients and people, you know, how do your feet feel first thing in the morning when you get out of bed?
Are they supple? Could you get up and run out of your house? You had to do it. And you're like, I got to loosen my feet.
I got to stretch my feet. That's a great indication of your overall health and how well you slept. I mean, we've all had, I have when I'm trying to drive you, you get up one morning. I'm like, man, my feet are kind of achir.
I got this, you know, a little sharp pain here, my heel or my toe. Things aren't moving as well as I should. And it's telling you, you got to chill out or you're pushing yourself too hard. So you got to listen to your feet, right?
Well, as a competitive sprinter, I have a different answer, which is I could roll out of bed and I could run. But I'd really like to do some warmups and drills first because otherwise I won't be running as fast as I can. And I'm like, that's one of my favorite things to do. I don't do it to be obnoxious, but it is obnoxious.
I walk up to him and go, hey, I'm older than your dad. And I do it just to see how they react. Because the ones who get depressed, it's kind of disappointing, but they're like really mad and they want to beat me. I like to hang out with these kids and train with them and work with them.
Because I know I've put a target on my back that's going to be good for them. They'll be motivating. And they're really fun. Cause that's how I was.
I was stupidly competitive in high school and it's fun to hang out with those kids. So when someone comes in, they're presenting something that they're presenting as plantar fasciitis. And maybe it is something that really is going on. Let's use the phrase plantar fasciitis.
One of the things that you do or one of the things that you can help people who are dealing with this to do that, or let's actually let's go back to the beginning of the show. What are the typical treatments that you know about that most people do that don't work and why and then what do you do that does and why. So definitely one of the most common ones is, you know, people have orthotics, they were put in a month, two years ago and they're still wearing them today. And unfortunately now they've weakened their feet.
So that they can't be without their orthotics. You know, so I have some people like, they're a little saying, you know, I can't take my shoes off in your office cause I literally cannot walk from, you know, the 50 feet from the entrance to back to your room. the one that I hear I ask people, how does it walk in your house? And they'll say this, they'll say the phrase, I have hardwood floors.
I have alligators, piranhas and cactus for floors. So yeah, I mean, all my floors are hardwood. So right, people, the floor is too hard for people. I know they're feet of this weekend so poorly.
So that, you know, shockwave therapy, unfortunately is not popular, you know, where they just go in there. And I know that I've never seen someone do it, but I've heard patients tell me about it where it's super painful and they're just trying to break up the hee-sions in there. Usually I'll be a lot of fun. The thing with the, with the, whatever it's called, it's a piece of electric.
It's basically, it just ends a giant spike of something. I've never had them due to my foot. I've had them do that to my shoulder. And yeah, it's a weird sensation.
It feels like someone just, some tiny little person just punched you inside your body and it's really unpleasant. And it really like created a whole lot of movement. It was super cool. In fact, I'm gonna be in an event this weekend where there's someone who, who that's their device that they say, I'm gonna be demoing.
I'm gonna be out my shoulder. I'm two years out of shoulder surgery and any little thing. I mean, I'm just adored for that. So yeah, it's fascinating, but definitely not the most pleasant thing to go through.
Yeah, and you know, I mean, then I think somebody gets lucky and it happens to break up the one occasion that was there as causing a plantar flesh fascia. Usually it's not addressing the issue at all. And obviously ultrasound is really big and taping and you know, a Corazon shots of course, are still pretty common, right? Have you, have you looked at a skylock analog in the last couple years?
Oh yeah, yeah. And there's usually like five or six shoes that basically immobilize your foot that are advertised as a cure. Or the, I forget the name of the sock off top of my head, but that sock that keeps your foot dorsiflexed when you sleep in. You know, pulls it back.
Pull in, there's a sock or something. There's a woman, I don't know if she's, I don't remember what kind of medical practitioner she is, but she's selling a sandal that she claims, what she says, there's a study that shows that it reduces the effects of plantar fascia, or the symptoms or cures plantar fascia, she might even say, and the study was basically just people self reporting what it is to wear the sandal. But when I look at the sandal, it's basically a boot. I mean, it just doesn't let your foot move at all.
Yeah, it's like, okay, cool. The pain goes away if you're not using it, but that doesn't mean you've cured the thing. Exactly. And I did that all the time.
So people, you know, they'll put a comment on the sock dog site with like a shoe that I've maybe talked poorly about. And I say, no, I actually wore the shoe and it's not really my problems. I don't understand why you're talking about the shoe. And it's like, you don't quite understand the point here is that if that shoe is literally correcting a problem, then you should be able to not, you should not need to wear that shoe after a while, and you should be able to block their foot and move freely again.
But they can't do that. They have to stay in that shoe. Because the shoe is like an orthotic supporting some dysfunction, that's supporting some imbalance that they have. Well, I remember, so when I first got back in a spring, I was getting injured constantly.
And I don't remember how or why I got them, but I got a pair of MBT, the Messiah Barefoot technology shoes. And I love them for one completely counterintuitive reason compared to how they were selling them. And that is, when I was getting all these injuries, the biggest injury that I got was cast strain. And I could wear those shoes and walk without having to use my calves.
I was basically just rolling over in a way that I wasn't using my muscles. And here's a crazy one. The Nike Vaporfly where everyone's going, hey, this shoe is amazing. It's making people 4% faster.
It's not. Roger Crom here at the University of Colorado, he's been studying that shoe. And he says it's made because people 4% improve in their VO2 max, their ability to process oxygen. And then he finally conceded that there's no direct correlation between having a better VO2 max and actually how you perform.
But he's researching to figure out why people are seemingly better than that shoe. And what he's concluded most recently, from what I've seen, he may have updated this since, is that you don't have to use your muscles as much. Is that it's allowing you to do more by just jamming in your joints without having to actually use your body the way it's supposed to be used. And sure, if you're trying to win a gold medal, that may be the way to do it.
That doesn't mean you're going to run when you're five years after winning that gold medal. But that was an amazing thing. It's like, it seems like it's working better by having you not have to use your body. It's like, oh, what?
So, okay. So in mobilizing, basically everything that we talked about is the common treatments are some form of immobilization, which if you do have real tissue damage, that's part of it. Of course, you want to get moving as quickly as well. So what do you recommend that is not that?
So, and as you alluded to earlier, and the video is what I showed people do at home, because in my office, I'm able to muscle test each individual muscle and see where the dysfunction is and see exactly how to correct that, whether that be a manual therapy to the foot or the calf, hip, ankle, knee, whatever. And find out where those fascia points that need to be manipulated are. In other words, like what people might call those trigger points or those myofascial points. So we can find exactly where those are.
And I showed some of those in the videos, like the common ones on the TBL supposed theory muscles as well in the calf. And aside from that, at least for home therapies, after that, it's really starting to strengthen your feet, which means you're doing some barefoot exercises, you're doing some eccentric heel drops on the stairs. So describe what that is for human beings who don't know. So basically a calf, you're standing on a step or something a few inches off the ground, maybe five, six inches off the ground.
You're doing a calf raise, your tippy toe on the end of the stairs and then you're slowly lowering, so your heels are dropping below the steps below parallel. And you're sort of doing a stretch in your calf. Do you recommend doing that or doing push up with both feet and go down with one foot? So you're really getting an actual eccentric load rather than just one foot?
Well, first some people, I mean, eventually you want to do just one foot absolutely, but some people can't even start with that because they're feet are so bad. So I haven't started with two. You've got to hang onto a handrail. Ideally, yeah, you're doing it just with one leg.
You're going up on the ones doing a knife calf, like tippy toe raise and then slowly lowering maybe five or six seconds into the heels all the way down, hold it for a second and then pushing up quickly and lowering so something like that. Now that's going to be more for calf, slowly as the ash rock issue. Tippy-alas posterior are a little bit more hard to isolate that muscle because it's so involved with pronation. That muscle is giantly or drastically intertwined between the two lower leg bones or tippy and your fibula in this membrane called inter-inter-oscis membrane.
Similar to what holds your radius and your own it together here. It's a thick, almost like spider web sheath of connector tissue and your tippy-alas posterior is all integrated in there and then the bottom of your foot and what we call the fascia. So really rehab your tippy-alas posterior, in my opinion, you're looking at actually just moving. If you're walking, you're trying to really do a nice full range of motion, in other words, use your entire foot, the flexibility of your foot and then work up to a good walk on a hard surface as well as eventually into a light run if you can do that.
Remit that means running in place to actually strengthen the entire foot. You ever recommend, one of the things, I don't remember if I got this idea from you or where I picked it up, but I recommend for people often just walking barefoot on something like gravel where they can't just walk, but they have to place their foot somewhat deliberately and they have to engage their foot to do so. Because otherwise, and it also is activating the nervous system as well. It's not just, it doesn't feel like a muscular thing.
It really gets your brain involved in how do I, where am I putting my foot and how am I putting my foot and you have to keep things sort of pretension. Yeah, it really activates what's called that kinesthetic sense, you know, like, and that's awesome, unfortunately, most people, like I have a part of my walkway at my office is like a p-gravel, you know, it's not any sharp stuff. Like, yeah, but I mean that, I've watched people walk on that before they hit the hard on paper surface and it just over-stimulates their brain like crazy. It's not really hurting their feet, but it's too much sensory stimulation.
That's a really, yeah, that's a really thing. So, yeah. Well, I talked about that, or I thought about that, just when talking about going barefoot, is I think a lot of people confuse either doing too much, too much too soon and muscular issue with exactly that over-stimulation. Like at first, when you let your brain feel it's happening with your feet, it feels great because like, yes, that's what I've been asking for.
But if you've had things so numb for so long, then it's definitely that thing of it's like, whoa, whoa chill out. Which is funny, people ask me like with our sandals with the Z-TRAE and the Z-TRAE. The track is just five and a half millimeters of rubber. The trail has some foam in there to give it a little extra cushion.
And people ask me about the difference. And I say, if I wear the trail for a while, which has a little bit of extra cushion, and it's just a tiny amount, it just feels super smooth. And then I put on the track, which is basically barefoot with a layer of rubber between you and the ground. My brain's like, oh, right, I can feel things again.
And then every now and then, it's like, yeah, I need a break from that. Can you get this back on? And so I alternate just based on what feels like, you know, the right thing for that day. Yeah.
A few years ago, I was at a movement workshop out in San Fe, New Mexico. And I was the one to lead this 5K run, like 6,000 elevation through one of the mountain ranges. It was all like a gravel type trail, and I had never run on that before. So I did a barefoot, and one other guy chose to do a barefoot too.
And by the end, he actually tore up a seat bag because he wasn't used to running barefoot. It was a bloody disaster. My feet didn't get nicked at all, but by basically after about two, two and a half miles, I stuck it out the whole three miles. But I was just, my brain was so wasted after that.
That's what I felt like. My feet weren't hurting, but the rest of the day, I was like, I was like jacked up. It was just so much for me to process because I wasn't used to running on that type of surface for a good 30 minutes or so. I think people forget that one of your brain's biggest functions is to not pay attention to certain things.
It's like weeding out things that are extraneous. And you really can just give yourself too much stimulation and need to find a way to mitigate that or modulate that. And this is the thing that I see often is people, they get so excited about the idea of barefoot and natural movement. The too much they do, it's more about what's happening with their sensory input than it is while the muscular stuff is going on.
Yeah, absolutely right. And that goes back to what we were saying a little hour ago, like how you feel in the morning will determine how a real health, or a lot of it, obviously not all the time. But how much you can handle walking on an uncomfortable surface, like how much stimuli is that to you? That's a good indication of how sort of like, how much like static you have.
I use the analogy, like if you're like one of those old school radio stations, you're trying to find the dial right on that wrist, but there's so much static. If you've just got so much static meaning so much stress, you can't handle any little bit more sensory stimulation. If somebody drops a pan in the kitchen, you freak out, or a bright light, you know, really makes you squint. Like you can't handle light and light stress, you can't handle sound stress.
Your feet are going to be even more of a reflection of your overall health. So if you can't handle, forget about the hard surfaces, but just that little stone under your foot or some gravel, some peagrable bed drives you nuts. Your brain's already maxed out most likely. I also noticed, it's not quite contrary to that, but I think it's part of a feedback loop that when I first started going barefoot, which is now 12 years ago, things that were uncomfortable to walk on now are not a problem.
And in part, it's because I've just gotten more familiar with how to use my feet to adapt to those things. In part, it's because I've become a little more, how do I want to put it? If something starts to hurt, I just step off of it rather than trying to stay on it. And in part, that's because I'm walking differently.
So I'm not putting so much weight on my foot immediately that I can't step off of it. But I also think that what's happened is that my feet have gotten more flexible and the reflex arc has improved. So I'm sort of more responsive and able to kind of just bend around things that I previously couldn't bend around. Yeah, and your pressure receptors change, your chemo receptors, all these things.
I just got back from a one month, or a one week field course in the Southern Utah, and we were in the mountains at this Boulder Outdoor Survival School, a great organization there in Boulder, Utah, which is of several hours south of Provo. And I did a good bit of it, at least one day, before it got too hot, barefoot. And one of the guys looked at me, he's like, we're walking on these slick rocks where the sun's beating off the rocks, we're 6,000 feet off, he's like, how are your feet not hurting? And it's not because I'm tougher, and it's just my feet have adapted to the heat.
And I stepped on a cactar, and it didn't feel good, but I was able to pull the little needles out of my foot without being huge one, because I think my foot was able to move right away. Like as soon as I hit it, it can adapt and shift right away, so I'm not causing some significant damage. You know, then by middle of the day, the sun's, you know, the sun's way too hot, and you put on my zero sandals, actually. But yeah, you're gonna develop stronger, more resilient feet over all the more than you adapt to that.
This is one of the things that amazes me when I talk to some people, is you do present this option of natural movement and suggest that it might take some number of months till you get familiar with it. Depending on your brain, it's how your brain adapts and how your body adapts. And people are resistant to that, and I go, if you're, let's go back to putting your arm in a cast, that analogy, so get your arm out of the cast, are you not gonna do physical therapy, or are you not gonna use your arm again, because it's been in a cast, or you're gonna spend some time getting it back in shape, and hopefully even getting it better than it was before you started, you know, why? I'm thinking about this out loud, like, what is it about feet, or I don't know what, something about feet, where people are seemingly reticent to just do the simplest thing, spend a little time barefoot, a little more every day, to develop lifelong strength and balance and sensitivity and all these things that feet provide.
So I don't know what it is, that people just are reluctant to do that in ways they aren't for other parts of their body. Well, I agree with you 100%. I mean, and working with patients directly every day for the past, you know, many, many years is, I can say overall, people are reluctant overall for most of their body. I mean, I mean, really people do not spend, it's the last thing to correct.
I mean, people will spend the time and the money fixing and applying to their house or their car. I mean, our bodies, it's amazing to me how people don't put the time into their bodies, actually. So even when you say something like their shoulder, yeah, most people will go to like physical therapy after a shoulder injury, rotator cuff, you know, say repair or whatever, but very rarely do I see somebody truly vested in making that as good as what it was. Or definitely, or I'd say stronger, almost never.
Most people are just like, you know, I can't raise my arm like this anymore. I want to be able to do that again. Like I can't make other arm. They just kind of want some normality.
They're happy with like, yeah, I just had, you know, this and I just injured this. I know I'm never going to be able to throw a ball again, but I just want to be able to, you know, put my arm over, I want to be able to watch my hair without pain. They're almost comfortable with me, or at mediocre seat. It's pretty sad actually that how little I think I see more and more every year how people want to put time into their body.
It's literally because we're just too busy with other things. One of the reasons for doing prolotherapy is because, this is the way Tom Raven, Mike Crazy-Prollo-Doc, described it because one of the things about healing is your body isn't designed, unless you have something to drink, your body isn't designed to get you back into the same shape you were or better. It's designed to get you good enough so that you can get moving again as soon as possible. So you can get out of whatever situation has caused a problem.
So we're not, I don't think we're physiologically designed to get back to the status quo, let alone to get better. And so I think what both of us are really describing is just a slightly more intellectualized version of that same thing that what the body's going to do naturally. Because the tissue itself, it's not, this is why we developed Star tissue, is when we get back to where we were or better, it's just going to do just good enough. And I think what we're talking about is the psychological version of just good enough.
Yeah, I think the right. Which is kind of a shame. I mean, the only thing that you can do to combat that is obviously if your livelihood is dependent on being in shape or getting better, or if you've got some other thing that shows up as a motivation for doing it. But I think what we're talking about, similar to critical thinking, we're not wired for doing critical thinking.
I think we might not be wired for doing critical healing, if you will, which now makes me think of what can we do to tweak that? How can we turn that into a game? How can we do something where we can make an end run around some natural process that might not be as effective or as efficacious as we would like? I have no idea where that's going, but it's just suddenly seeming like an interesting line of inquiry.
Yeah. Who knows? Yeah. So anything else that you want to think of about natural movement?
As I asked that question, I'm going to give it a caveat. I'll say this way. So many people think that the whole barefoot running thing died, and it was just completely patently false. And we see it, our evidence that's false is just the fact that our company has just grown significantly year after year after year after year.
And asking for more and more products that accomplish different things, that we have so many customers who own multiple pairs of our product for different activities. And then when we go to Europe where there wasn't this whole argument about barefoot or natural movement, it's just been a part of the culture for a long time. Same thing in Asia. We're seeing that the United States is its own peculiar little thing.
But we're also seeing that some of the bigger companies are starting to try and do a little more of what we're doing. They're not actually getting to what we're doing or anything close to it, but they're trying to use the same language. They're using some of the same similar design ideas that are applied well enough. So I'm seeing that it's starting to become a thing, that my whole idea of making natural movement, obvious choice like natural food, may have some real merit to it.
But I'm wondering what your perspective is. We haven't talked about this. What you see both in your practice and just have your observing reality around you. Yeah.
I think people are putting that more into their everyday movement where before coming from a running background, a triathlete background, I probably only talked about cross training before I'm going to do different sporting activities, where today you're going to get more athletes doing different types of almost like play movements. They're going to like adult games. Maybe even if it's running around on the front yard and playing tag with your kids or some sort of natural movement that's using different types of muscular connections or a special connections or something different than what you're used to doing and hopefully doing that barefoot. So I do agree with you that.
Yeah, it's more talked about every year. But I've got to say, and this isn't counter to what you're saying at all, but unfortunately what I see, and maybe it's because I live in the hustle and bustle triangle, Rolly Durham Chapel Hill here in North Carolina, is that unfortunately it's still not on people's priority list. That it's their last thing when their health unfortunately is still coming last and exercise or training or activity, whatever word you want to use, play. Unfortunately not on the top of their list.
Eating is important. They're like, I'm going to go to Whole Foods or I'm going to go to the health food store and get this. Or they're still going and they've got to get in there 30 minutes on the treadmill or the dreaded elliptical, which I think is the worst machine ever developed. Hold on, hold on.
Why? Because it's so unnatural. The elliptical is the exact opposite of a natural movement. I really think I'm not sure if this is true or not.
But I think the elliptical is made because people could never do cross country seeing the Nordatrack machine, which is a natural movement to some degree. Unrequired coordination. It does require coordination. No, no, no.
The elliptical, you can just stand mindlessly on and move your arms and legs in some ununiform fashion to get your heart rate up. So I am so anti-liptic. Yeah. Anyhow, do we need to turn the camera on?
No, no, no, no. No, no, no, elliptical. In fact, we're getting a true form treadmill in here. So one of the current treadmill.
That was great. That was a different, but it's a true running form. But anyway, I mean, so I still see people, and I still see that that's not on the huge priority in people's life, even though they're aware of it. And I hope it's going to change because growing up in this, being in the business now for 20 plus years, I can say even 10 years ago, people are like, oh, yeah, I know about hydrogenated fast.
I know how bad they are, but they would still eat them. Or I know how bad corn syrup is, but I still eat them. Now I don't see that today. I almost never have to talk to my patients about hydrogenated fast.
I'm hoping in another few years, five years, that they're going to come in and more people are going to say to me, hey, yeah, I'm doing this fun activity or I'm doing this movement activity more so than it's only happening because I'm recommending it. Unfortunately, I don't see any patients who come in. I see patients who wear your shoes and other minimalist companies which is nice, but very rarely, I could say out of all my patients over the years, I'd like to say one or two, I were actually truly barefoot like me. Well, admittedly, we're freaks.
And one day. But we also are true to what we believe in. I mean, especially you, I mean, I'll plug you for a minute. Here you are, you sell shoes.
That's your living. How often do you wear shoes during the day? Some things you don't even put shoes on. Most days, yeah.
Most days you don't even wear shoes. So you don't even wear your own product because you understand that really the best is the boy. No shoes. What this is what I said since day one is barefoot is best and when it's not appropriate, that's why we have zero shoes.
So when I'm on the track on the weekends, I do most all my warmups and drills barefoot. And then when it's time to do speed, I'm in our shoes. And when I'm, when else do I wear shoes? If it's exceedingly hot out and I know I have to spend a lot of time on, on, on, yeah, on asphalt or.
Or you're going to go to a store or something. You don't want somebody on that. Most stores I have no problem with. The only store that I have a problem with whole foods.
Whole foods. Yeah. Whole foods. First of all, yeah.
No, no grocery stores. I go to King Super's at a regular grocery store. Never had the only thing anyone's ever said to me is, that looks cool. And whole foods, the number of times people have said, yeah, you can't do that here.
And I go, why? I go, well, it's an insurance thing. I said, no, actually it's not. They go, well, it's a health care or a health code thing.
I go, no, actually it's not. It's for employees you have to wear shoes, but it's not about patrons. But they have a sign that says, you know, that you have to wear shoes. And I go, well, how come it's okay to have dogs in here barefoot?
Why is that all right? They go, well, so they've gotten mad at me. I was in Costco once wearing shoes because I just got off the track. And someone, one of the employees, stop me and said, is everything okay?
I said, why? You're wearing shoes. I took it in my mind. But in fact, I was in the hospital.
It is funny how you get that. Like I was recently at one of my patients funeral. No joke. I've been Virginia and the family came up to me after.
Thank you for coming all this. We didn't give it a smart ask. We didn't recognize you. You were in shoes.
I thought shoes were appropriate at the funeral. Check this one out. So when my dad died, I think it's about four years ago. I can't remember if it was three years or four years.
Let's call it four years ago. My dad dies and I had a dress shoe from another minimalist company because we weren't making one and they didn't fit my feet. I mean, they hurt like crap. And so I took them off as quickly as I could.
And the rabbi comes off to me and he says, you know, in Orthodox families, the family doesn't wear shoes while they're mourning the loss of them already is because it's one of the sides. You don't look at a mirror. You don't wear shoes. And I went, oh, I'm in.
I'm in a couple of weeks, I wasn't wearing shoes and we're not an Orthodox Jewish family, but I just took that as something I could do. But the thing that I mean, Dave has made a comment. I read from Harvard and she said, you know this, of course. Irene said, if we just get kids in natural movement footwear for when they need footwear, in 20 years, we want to have to treat them for the problems that adults currently have.
And it may be that what we're talking about is a hopefully not multi-generational issue where this does become the obvious choice. And we start seeing barefoot as a more acceptable thing. I mean, look, I'm the first to admit it, but I'm still occasionally self-conscious about it when I'm going in a certain place as barefoot and I'm waiting for someone to say something. I'm walking in the office and I'm dressed like I am now, I'm in a pair of shorts.
I've got a zero-issue shirt. My hair was unnaturally big that day and I'm barefoot and I catch my reflection in the window and I just stop and I'm like, oh, I'm that guy. I was not wearing that. And part of it is from being 57, too.
I mean, so being an old guy walking around like this, that adds to it as well. I kind of enjoy that. I'm okay, getting crazier as I get older. There you go.
Because they give you more slack. So anything you can think of before we call it a whatever day, morning, evening, afternoon, this happens now. That means you don't have to talk forever, it's always fun. So people want to find out more about what you're up to and what you're doing and just what you've been sharing and teaching.
What's the best way for them to do that? Yeah, well, my website's unfortunate. I haven't updated for a long time, but you've got sock.com. So that's so CK-DOC.com and then my other site, Dr.
Dan Jummy.com, D-R-G-A-N-G-M-I. And then for practitioners out there, those who are interested in manual therapy techniques, I have my whole line of work and videos and that systems healthcare, that's the technique that I develop, systemshealthcare.com. Awesome. And you can find those all online.
Beautiful and we'll link to them as well. So first of all, thank you again, as you said, it was a pleasure, totally treat. And for everyone else, thank you for being part of this episode of the Movement Movement podcast. If you want to hear the other episodes, head over to jointhemovementmovement.com.