When you get older, you get slower, or do you. That's what we're going to find out in today's episode of the movement, the podcast for people who want to know the truth about how to have a happy, healthy, strong body starting with the beat versus your foundation, where we get rid of the mythology that probably ends up in the lies about what it takes to walk, to run, to hike, to yoga, to cross, whatever it is you like to do, enjoy it. I'm Stephen Sanch and the host for the movement podcast, and you may already know how to find us. Just go to www.join.com.
That's where you can find all the places that you can interact with us, and that's where you can find out where you can, of course, share and subscribe and like and review and all those things that you know how to do. I'm not going to tell you all about that. We like to get started before we get started, I want to introduce our guest, and then we're going to do something that I'm going to have him participate in. Our guest is Keith Bateman.
Keith, I'm not going to give an intro about who you want to do it as well, or as interestingly as you. Why don't you tell human beings, who the hell are you? What are you doing here? Okay, I'm a technique coach these days.
I transform people's technique. I use the people who learn things that they're doing that you're coaching technique on. No, basically, a complete change. Complete, repeat.
That's right. Yes, I'm trying to change it to what it should be for any human with two legs on the planet. If you notice that all the top runners in the past will look the same. They're Steve Obett, from the Bard's, Mo Farah, they all basically have the same running action, and that's what we're getting for, the most efficient running action for each individual.
Beautiful. For those of you listening or watching, you might notice that Keith has distinctive accent clearly from New Jersey or New York, I'm guessing, correct? Okay, so I'm a bit of a mongrel. I was born in Watford, which is near London, obviously in England.
I was there for 21 years and I was in Scotland for 20 years. Now I've been in Australia for 19, but I'm not moving from here. I have a friend who was a Brit who, when he got to Australia for the first time, was going through customs and they asked the standard questions. They said, why are you here?
He said, I'm here on business. Where are you going? He says, where are they going? And one of the questions is, do you have a criminal record?
And he says, oh shit, you still need one to get in. Exactly. Exactly. So before we jump into just our conversation, one of the things that I like to do at the beginning of the podcast is a movement, since this is the movement movement.
And this is going to be a really simple one for those of you who are listening and watching. One of the most important things that you can do is have arch strength and one of the easiest ways of building arch strength is just by using them with a little isometric contraction. You can do anywhere I do this when I'm cooking or doing the dishes or when I'm sitting at a desk, usually I'm standing at a desk. And it's actually a really good thing to do.
And it couldn't be easier. Just take your feet and just without trying to relax, every toe you have as much as you can, accept your big toe and press your big toe into the ground. And if you do this really strong, you will probably get a cramp in your arch. So don't do that back off a little bit.
Just get that big toe pressed in and see if you can relax the other toe. So you're really just engaging the arch, do it for three to four seconds and then relax. And then do it again, just a little press with your big toe into the ground and engage that arch. And really the other way around, if you engage your arch, you are pressing your toe into the ground.
So you want to think about it from that angle. And again, just relax and do this once or twice. More and one more, just press that big toe into the ground and relax. Great way just to do a little isometric thing.
You can do anywhere you go, everywhere you are to build some strength in your foot. So back to Keith for the win. I have to say, I haven't done that one before. It's very good.
Thanks. Yeah, it's really easy and literally you can do it pretty much everywhere. Yeah, very seriously. We may have got that one, but we'll have to.
So at the top of the podcast, I said, you know, when you get older, you get slower and maybe not. And that's because Keith, you are the author of a book called older yet faster. And this is now the second version, second version. Second edition, yes.
I have to say it's Heidi Jones, my wife as well. So we must have to say that. But it's not that we're not joining us because she's not feeling well today, otherwise we'd have her in on this as well. So Heidi and Keith are responsible for this book, which is it's not just for older athletes and not just about getting faster or not getting.
Not about. Tell more about how you frame the book. It's for people who are year-old of this year and they were last year fascinating. There's a couple of my mother for a while never got older year after year.
It was fascinating. She covered right around 39 for a while. Then she got 10 years older and she covered it at 49 for a while. Now she has Alzheimer's.
So she thinks she's 30 again. It's awesome. Nothing comes to a 26 but still. So the sometime of the book obviously have a copy here is the secrets are running fast and injury free.
Which is obviously you've got to be injury free first. And so Heidi has a big input here. Most people have weakened feet as you will go because they've had chunky shoes on and they're just not using them. So the first thing we try to do is spend up to six weeks if possible on doing a foot program that Heidi are using her perdatory business.
And that's all on video as well. So you really want to get your feet strong first if you haven't been running walking around their feet. And then we have a very simple set of lessons that I put together over the last 10 or 12 years to basically really re-educate the brain, make you think differently about how you run. So you can perform a different action.
You build up the muscles to support it. Which generally tend to be new muscles like calf muscles, glute and lower back and core muscles. And from it's a very quick change to change your action basically. And then it takes time for the muscles and the recommend to catch up.
So you start with something that has been an argument that I've had with Irene Davis. Not really an argument. But Irene Davis is a researcher at Harvard. And she's really promoted one of the biggest promoters of research for about natural movement.
And similarly when you work with her you start with a foot strengthening program for a number of weeks. And then you start with a bunch of walking before you get in and running. And I say argument with big air quotes. We just get along swimmingly.
And this is just a fun debate we have. I say that in lieu of doing foot strengthening, which is fine, but there's no amount of strengthening or walking that you can do that is actually the same as running. It's always helpful. No, it's very specific.
That's right. Yeah. It's right. Yeah.
I say take a really short run like 20 seconds. And then when that feels completely added to there. And I think fundamentally it's really the same idea. Just from the different people.
And if you can do both, so much the better. Yeah. Yeah. We work exactly the same.
You're going to have to go to your 30, but now they go down to two. And then they wait and see what it's like the day after. If it's all they stop, they stop for two days, maybe it's very slow at the beginning. But then it rapidly increases after they get to about five or six kilometers.
Yeah. I literally for some of these people, I literally 2K would be way too far. I'm talking like 200 meters. I want to see people.
I want to see people because there's some people who they've been overstiriding and heel striking for so long. But frankly, at the end of the 100 meters, they know that something is awry and they have to wait until the next day to figure that one out or a day after to figure that one out which is not a comment. I've also seen one. I'm curious what your thought is.
I see someone training or warming up. It just happened a couple of years ago. A guy in a pair of five fingers and I'm watching him warm up really slowly and his form looked great was nice and quiet on the track. Everything was nice.
And then he started going up to speed and I could tell he was going up to speed because I could hear him just like slam, slam, slam. I'm just curious what you've seen when you've got people who are coming to what you're doing in that same regard or if you've seen something similar. It's basically the same for everybody whether they're a runner who had some customers who were running 30 minutes to 10K already. And I do exactly the same thing with them all because the movements are the same.
It's just a matter of refinement. So that's slapping noise. I've never known it not to be somebody just touching with the heel first and then the foot slapping the arm. That's really so they are lifting or trying to place their foot or that somehow they are advancing their foot, lifting the knee or lifting the foot and trying to place it.
If you lift your foot, you're not lifting your body. There were two work against each other. So basically a good runner wants to lift the body. They want the whole body to come off the ground.
Two ways of doing that. One is to push off your toes which would be an acceleration. The other way is to try to land as near as possible to vertically aligned and then your body becomes a spring and it's a spring shot ground. So you get free energy almost off the ground.
So a good runner will have a lot of the spring effects and very little of the push effect. You and I have actually gotten into also arguments as well where I describe something like that where you want to initiate your foot coming off the ground from your hip rather than your calf. In other words, you're not pushing off the ground with your foot. But think about the image that I give you, I like to give you.
I say imagine that you stepped on a B. You wouldn't want to get off the B by pushing down harder with your foot because that would drive the stinger further in. You want to lift your foot off the ground. It's almost a reflexive thing for getting on the ground.
Which if you're a good spring that actually has effect. Yeah. Because a good runner doesn't lift their feet in the same way as they don't engage their core or engage their glutes. They're not actually thinking about it.
What's happening is they're getting a natural bounce off the ground and the hips go off the ground and the feet follow. But if you try and lift the foot behind you then if you lift the head goes forward so you lose that spring position become more bent. If you lift your foot in front of you then you sit back and you lose that beautiful upright position. So we find with thousands of clients that we actually do something simple to leave your foot on the ground a bit longer and go past it and it will come off the ground on its own.
I don't think we're actually saying, I think if we looked at people who are doing what each of us is describing it would look not only look the same but an EMG would show that the muscle activation is the same. It's just, yeah, yeah. It's very difficult to be totally precise and let everybody interpret what you're saying in the same way. Somebody asked me they said can you make an app where it just gives us the right cue.
I went no. Sometimes you get the same cue to someone on day one it has no meaning on day two. It's the perfect cue. Yeah.
So what we've done actually just the thing about we've got lessons one, two and three we've started moving. Lesson four is a separate drill comes at that minute that's just get everything moving. Lesson five is how to start a run. So it's actually less than one, two and three to get up and you start moving and then there are a couple of cues in there that you can try.
One of them is just the 360. You spin and if you do that successfully and you come out of it running you're running you'll hear vertical when you learn and you're vertical when you're aligned when you take off. So that's a good one. You mean just jump up and rotate 360.
Yeah, don't even jump up just try it along and keep it down slow down just keep your momentum going. It's obviously a slow speed and you get to the spin. Ah, brilliant. And then four or five places after that and then I spin the other way.
Now if you can't do it, if you can't do it smoothly it means you're throwing your leg or something like an ice gator out in front of you. So it's a very simple subject. And do you have videos of this one? Yes, I'll have video.
Everything's on video. Yep. I'm sure that you discover that people, even people who do it they'll spin better one way than the other. Everybody does.
Yes, that's right. So you have to alternate. If you're doing a series of them you're alternating so you don't get dizzy. There's the dizzy thing but I was finding it really funny watching just the difference between doing something one way or the other.
I did something, I think on the podcast last week I can't remember where it was just like Cross Your Arms and then Cross by the way. Yes. I can't remember which one is the way that I normally do it. It took a while for that.
Yeah. On that note we say in the book asymmetry is normal. It's a different size and speed. It's all so let's not try to make it perfect.
Let's just go with what we've got. I have a sign that I wrote that I kept on my bulletin board now for probably 35 years. It says distrust symmetry. Yes.
Very good. We think very much alike. I think I missed out there. Then we've got Heidi's strengthening program.
We've actually got a rehab program as well for people who come injured or do get injured. You know, you can't do too much. Get the shot muscle problems or even tendon problems to beat. But the far as the technique is concerned and going back to your point about different things work for different people.
We've got about 10 different tricks on the run tricks. We only need one of them. But we get people to try them all and see which one works best. So it's a matter of if that one works great, stick with it.
That's all you need. So yeah, on your point about different things work for different people. Different times or the same person. Yeah.
Can you get a couple examples of what those are? Okay. The first one we call the pendulum. It's basically I hope you come back while you're running along and you deliberately lean back.
So you start to land maybe on the up. You feel the pressure on the heel. Then you deliberately tilt. You want to maintain tension and speed when you do that.
You deliberately tilt the body forward. So you feel the pressure on the forefoot. You will accelerate and then you gradually, only gradually come to find the middle balance position. Then you repeat and this time you lean back a little bit less than before and a little bit less forwards than before and upright and you keep repeating it until the person running next to you can hardly see you're moving and all you're feeling is the pressure towards the heel, towards the ball and then on both.
So the focus of the book is to get a balanced landing. That sounds a bit vague. But if your foot is pressing on the ground behind you are accelerating or you could possibly be running over it. You'll be accelerating.
If you put pressing on the ground in front of you, which it has to be, then you are breaking and what you're looking for at constant speed running is as near as possible in the middle. We're not being prescriptive exactly what angle it is. Still not formula. So Chris, there's a guy Chris Powers I think is at USC or UCLA.
I can't remember somewhere in Southern California. He's got a whole idea about the body leaning forward just a little bit. So you're getting a little bit of a hip angle which engages the glutes a little bit more. But that's independent.
It's one it's just it makes it a small difference. Sometimes I see people who are running very essentially what you're saying is actually a better example or one that I think is more relevant. There's times where I'm working with people where they're way over striding. There's putting on the brakes with every step and they just can't feel that.
And one thing I'll do with them is I'll have them stand upright and I put my hands on their shoulders. Yes. Into my hands. And then I'll run backwards as they're running forwards where their feet can't catch up with them.
And then at some point I'll get out of the way. And then they still a bit. But then they because that what you're describing is something I love of just exaggerating a little bit so you get the feedback so you know what you're doing. Exactly.
Talk about field. Yeah. Yeah. Because we're so used to what we're doing it feels normal and like a little change will feel like a big change when you're probably not even getting where you need to go yet.
That's right. Heidi's face in her section for Beatiatrist's about I think it's just got a Beatiatrist section at the back of the book which is controversial of course. She says about your perception of upright is different if you were shoes. Well, she doesn't.
Well, you think you might. I don't know if I told you about this. I have this. So my undergraduate research on cognitive aspects of motor skill acquisition.
In part from that I developed this idea. I like to say the simplest instructions for running barefoot is find a nice smooth hard surface. Take off your shoes, go for a very short run and it hurts. Do something different to having a good time.
Some people their brain map is so de differentiated their brain just literally doesn't know they have feet at the end of their legs for all practical purposes. They haven't been giving the brain stimulation for so long. They can't tell it hurts. Some people they can tell it hurts but they have like you were just driving bad proprioceptive skills they think vertical is something different it is and they need like video feedback because they just won't believe you until you show them what reality is versus the way they think it is because they're so used to it.
And then the next group of people that have proprioceptive skills they just need to cue the shortening the learning cycle and then the last group their naturals and the problem they have is they have so much fun that they get tired because they do too much and revert to one of those previous levels. And so you may think of a question that I'm really curious about. I'm going to Europe next week and there's a really interesting difference between you Europe and America. In America people will walk up to me and go oh is this about barefoot or minimalist with a kind of scowl on their face and they have the idea that there's something inherently wrong with it.
In Europe they walk up the other way around oh my god are your shoes minimalist or barefoot because they believe in this idea of natural movement where does Australia fit into that spectrum? Yeah probably somewhere between the two I suggest when I walk around here we live by the beach but when I walk around here with shoes on people stop in the street and say oh you've got shoes on today. Every time I'm only 800 meters 800 yards from the shops. I had that in a Costco where they stopped me and said everything okay I said why?
They said you're wearing shoes. I'm normally in restaurants and gas stations and everywhere but. Yeah it's certainly people it makes people think if I go and do one local we have a park front and I know you have a few in America but there's 5k big ones and a lot of people are running but you turn up and you don't put your shoes on. I did that when I was in Swansea in Wales with Heidi I'm not sure yet before and Heidi was sitting somewhere back in the field in the middle there and I was out the front and I was doing some strides in that and somebody said that grey head white head guy out the front we know shoes on crazy.
I ran that one in 1712 and that was a big big factor. The lines I have in the video I made was shit runners say two barefoot runners and so it's the guy saying hey you can't really run like that. That's exactly right yes that's the way to do it. I get it just warming up on the track.
I'm a sprinter so all my warm ups are barefoot and pretty much anything up to stick on the infield I can go full speed barefoot on mottos track surface I can do anything up to 60% full speed and people look at me like I'm crazy I'm going but I'm doing it arguing about the reality that's right in front of your face but you would say that the general perception just among normal human beings is not either necessarily very pro or anti they don't come in with some big preconception. Oh some people do some people too they've got a friend who's in orthotics for 35 years. Now we've rebuilt him because he's injured for decades and we've rebuilt him. I just really got that too.
He's taken three years but he is running like a professional 800 meter 1500 meter run. He is looking super. He's been very cautious at the moment but once he gets back racing he's going to be round about 32 for 10k maybe. Nice.
But his coach or his previous coach thrown him up and said oh don't stop that money. Stupid barefoot running that won't help you at all which what to me ignored that. What's so ironic about this isn't I know Australia and New Zealand are two different countries but of course Arthur Lidiard one of the most famous running coaches of all time most successful coaches of all time he basically had people running mostly barefoot or in shoes that he made they were super thin so they were actually a lot like ours which is why we're running like we're doing. It's incredible that there was that influence and people just it's seemingly gone from their minds they just have no memory of what the impact was.
Yeah that's right. I do all my barefoot or in the thinnest of thin shoes. So you alluded something a minute ago that I'd love you for you to say more about which is just how Heidi is a podiatrist how what you guys are doing is received by the podiatry community. I'd love for you to say more.
We don't really know because they tend to ignore. I think Heidi did send a book to something one of the local universities lectures there and then she met her later on and she said I'll get that to my daughter to read and she said it was quite controversial. That was it. So Heidi is just keeping up it basically she does quite a lot she has to have professional development points and she does a lot now on the video sessions podcast that things and some of them are just absolute rubbish.
There's the occasional one from a surgeon not somebody who's that's really interesting but as far as running concerns it's just ridiculous what's being taught. All the people that I've ever heard in the from their medical professionals who come down against natural movement have never tried it. Yes, absolutely. It's a simple set up at a conference very early on.
This is nine years ago and there's a bunch of medical people saying well you know if you're going to make the transition it's going to take you years until you could possibly do anything and you definitely want to stay on grass you don't want to get on concrete. I said how many people other than me have run at least a mile barefoot on concrete and no one hands went up. I know yours would. It was incredible like they were all just making up these theories based on zero experience whatsoever in fact the whole thing is going to take you years till you can do it.
That cracked me up because they literally didn't know anyone who had spent years trying. The whole idea was so brand new that had a set of zero for that idea. Which occurs to me I never thought to ask this is a extremely obvious question. How did you get into the whole natural barefoot thing?
I was training with a very good squad in 2003 my coach from Williams and he was his elite squad and actually three of the three of the members that were happily in the Olympics since it was a really good running squad and a lot of them probably 50% or maybe even more didn't have the shoes on the grass training and so I tried that and I've just carried on from there and now if I go out for a run around the town now I don't have shoes on I'll do 10k the first 10k of my Sunday run I'll go out barefoot and then I'll join some others but maybe eight or 10k on the grass at the end. How many times have you met someone who says they're a barefoot runner and when you ask it turns out they've never had their bare feet on the ground? No I don't actually I mean wearing minimalist shoes that happens a lot yeah. And look obviously I'm not against minimalist footwear but I always say people it's not the same get your feet on the ground it's a wonderful experience and shoot footwear is for when that's not the appropriate thing to do for whatever reason that may be.
Exactly right I wish I coach for a local school here on the technically head coach for the cross country team and also for the middle distance I wish I could get them to have their shoes off it's a nightmare I just can't do it. They won't say the issue. What safety issues? Yeah I know but I just the interesting thing though is I'm trying to get the boys to actually wear some cross country, spiky cross country or something like that I try all before the season starts I try to get this information out to get them and they go to the local athletes foot and buy something about 15 millimeters thick and this thick and that's the finish they had but this last week actually I've had three parents speak to me and say oh those black shoes you've got the James or whatever into it speaks for these problems.
There you go and one of the fathers said I was really scared people about what you were saying but I've got a pair of zeros now and they're great so I'm actually through the boys I'm getting through but the big problem is I'll say something to the boys and they'll relate to the parents and the parents will just dismiss it and go to their pedagoras who gives them all body ex-emasic. It's amazing. I mean my lane is nice was across country and high school and was just wearing our sandals and she had to sign like all this paperwork that she was absolving them of any responsibility if she got injured and of course she had no problems and everyone else was getting injured. Hey I want to back up to it.
That's right yes I've had officials stop me at the start cross country. Am I now there are roots there? Yeah that's all right. I was in a whole food barefoot and they said you can't be in your barefoot.
I said why? I said how? They said you could step on something. I said I could actually look before I step on things.
I said you let dogs in here. Why can the dogs be in here? You weren't about them stepping on something? That was very confusing to them.
So I want to back up to Oldie and Faster because your implication was that it's not just for old people. I'd love for you to talk about just the differences in what you're seeing with let's call them younger people versus older people and how you just what you notice and actually if you want to say there's something about what your experience has been as an older athlete and I'm thinking about I want to put this when I go to master's track needs there is a demonstrable difference in terms of speed between the older distance or how to say this there's a demonstrable difference between how much less the distance runners have gotten slower versus the sprinters. I'm going to master's track me actually the senior games and a bunch of the 60 year old guys are saying to me man when you become 60 it just falls off a cliff and the 80 year old guys walked out and went you don't know what you're talking about just wait so sprinting is a whole different thing than drawing but I'd love for you to talk about just what you're doing obviously is not just applicable to people who are over some particular age but I'm curious about what four people who do get older whatever that age is or older than whatever that age is. It's obviously all about progress the individuals progress but we do see some we get results from everybody basically if you're more efficient you're going to go faster with the same effort it takes longer for the muscles, tendons and ligaments to adapts with older people that's the main thing but the increases in speed can be phenomenal in my case I went when I was 47 48 my best 10k time was 36 and a half and that was from when I was 40 I think and then but by the time 55 it was 31 50 and that was basically technique change and all my times all except the marathon which I didn't really run were massively improved and it just the technique change and then being able to train more because you're not getting injured and building up the strength in the right places and you don't have to have a target time or you have to know is that if you get your technique your body will build strong with that technique in the right places and you will go faster how much faster you go and that depends on other factors.
It's funny you remind me of all these things when I was at the World Master's Track and Field Championships it was about 10 years ago or so in Finland I hung out with all the guys were 85 plus and actually just 80 plus and because there was very few that were 85 plus they were very entertaining but all the 80 plus guys I said how much of what you're doing is nature versus nurture and they all had the exact same answer they said the fact that I'm here is all genetic but the fact that I'm winning is all training so how do you respond to people when they ask you how long is it going to take for me to adapt or learn or make this transition? Well number one it will take as long as it takes but the change in your running action is almost immediate quite a big change immediate then it's impossible to refine it and it will be a gradual process while your muscles and the big ones build up if you take the goodiest medius which is usually weak in most people you're not going to be able to hold yourself up along if you're weak there and hold the form so you have to get as near as possible to good form wait till your muscles build up then you'll be able to do it longer so that you get better at it so you get stronger that becomes a vicious circle and that's why it's a virtuous circle. Towards the end of transition you're making more rapid progress. A vicious circle yes.
It's funny I was Irene Davis does an event with Brian Hides and the guys I mentioned earlier his name just felt completely out of my head down as a good on powers and it's Chris Powers. Wow and what was interesting they each have different ideas about what causes running injuries and what you want to do to address them but they all notice that the biggest most common thing is weakness in the glute medius. So yes we don't think that is we glutes or we cause other cause of the injury I think the cause of the injury is the action you're making and the glutes and the core don't get strong because you're not landing in the right position. I would have got one little.
No we would probably have the same wavelength there. I think they would ultimately agree I think there's like difference it's like the difference in opinion about whether you should do strengthening first or just make the running change first and let the strengthening happen. It's a similar thing from them so some of them were really suggesting aggressively or not aggressively actively working on glute medius and glute maximus strengthening while you're making these form changes somewhere doing the form changes first which would activate the glutes and then let that just take over. Yeah Heidi is very much into somebody who's been a big heel strike over strike for instance is going to have big quads and very weak glutes to gluteus in any way.
So she has an exercise in the book for building up the glute strength because if you can't hold yourself up and your femur is rotating inwards then you're going to get injured. So there has to be a certain strength. Yeah I'm on the same wavelength as both of those. You have to have a certain strength to start but then if you're not doing too much you're going to build it up as you go.
There's nothing like a running action to be strong for the running action. I agreed. What's the exercise that she recommends? It should cause a quaternary squat.
What? So you're actually just dropping down your hips about seven centimeter about this much. I don't know what that is. So it's basically standing on one leg.
Yes, standing on one leg. Your torso is upright and you are just putting your knee over your middle toe down and up again. And if you don't feel your gluteus medius working you're probably bending over two months. We just let your body talk backwards a bit until you feel it working.
She got sets of 30 of those I think. So that's the mirror is that we can get to the running action. That's why we don't squat all the way down. It's just the sort of distance you'll get when you're getting a rebound when you're running.
I've been reading a lot lately about strength training for running and how much does or doesn't transfer to actual running. So like you were saying squats or deadlifts and how that transfers and how much general strength and conditioning can apply. It's tricky because some of the, like you're saying there's no substitute for running or if you're walking or whatever it is the actual action that you're doing is going to be the best for you. And general strength and conditioning can be useful if you really need that.
But by and large just doing it and doing it injury free and safely is going to be your best bang for the buck. Yeah, we're definitely agree on that. I feel that all this strength work that people do is for people who aren't running technically well and then preventing injury because of their stronger and supporting the parts of their body with strength, the parts of the getting overused. Right.
So I think it's yes it does prevent injury but you don't need it if you're running well. I'm going to see how you respond to some of these other things on a daily basis. When people say I need arch support what do you say? That'll make a big week.
I wish this wasn't just like talking to a mirror but it is. And when people say I have high arches or flat feet what do you say? It doesn't matter. African, a lot of Africans, Asians have flat feet.
It's not a problem. Flat feet are fine, weak feet. That's that comes from, that's from. Okay, that's for flat feet.
What do you say when people say I have high arches? High arches. I don't think that's generally a problem. Is it a problem with anyone?
The thing that I hear from people when they talk about high arches is usually the arches are a little stiff or they think they need support because I don't know why. I'm biased just the same for flat feet. I used to have flat feet until I started doing this and strength and strength and for people with high arches I'll often say you might need to work on a little flexibility, just a little mobility because you haven't been using them or they're hypertonic. So they're just continually flexing in ways they don't have to.
But the same thing, let them move naturally. I'm just always. Yeah, that's probably a question for Heidi. Yeah.
I'm sure there's anything else. So let me do this. Tell people where they can get a copy of the book obviously and how they can find out more about how they can do what you're doing. And even more, I guess the better question is what recommendations you have or how would you talk to people who obviously aren't going to come in contact with you personally or they don't happen to live in Australia for some strange reason?
The book is most of ourselves are the UK and America. The book, but if you go to our website, which is already yet faster.com, then you'll see all the places where you can buy the book. Most people get it through Amazon. We've got a color edition.
We've got one which is the standard black and white internal pages and we have electronic versions as well. But if you go to Amazon, if you're in America or wherever you are, that's fine. If you can't get a copy, then you'll see on the website we've got some printed in India and they post them and that's actually a bit cheaper in India and so the postage is probably about the same price. And next week we'll have the old book, Topia as well worldwide.
So we're getting out there. And so for people who think that if they're going to make these changes in a Daffod natural form, that they need a coach, they need someone local, they need what do you say about the best way for someone to learn how to do this when they're dealing with books and videos, etc. Not seeing you or someone personal. We have started a very active book, which I remember, I believe.
Yep. So that's if you just go to Facebook and look up all the way up faster, you'll find the group, come and join. There are many people there who have been all going through the system. I think the 550 members at the moment.
Two of the contributors, James in the UK, has actually started coaching some friends and doing a fantastic job. So we've been communicating on that. And Sam who works at Google has been putting on some sessions for Google employees. And we've been talking about those before.
So that's my official coaching book. People on the forum put up videos of what they, where they're at. And Heidi and I really have to do nothing because the people on the forum have learned so well, they come up with all the right answers and we help people that way. Fantastic.
Yeah, that's a very satisfying thing. When you go to answer the question, someone beat you to it. Yeah, brilliant. And the other thing I did last week was I asked people if they wanted to be their icons and their name placed on a map where they live.
Oh, fun. We've just done that. So far, there are 70 members for progression in India is 1770 kilometres from the nearest person who is on another continent. But yeah, but there are some people around New York who are quite well met up because of that.
And we're trying to get little groups going on people so they can work together, which is good. We do have a little group here that we run in Sydney in Australia, but not many people can come across from that. We are going to have a gathering next year though. We are putting...
I was just going to ask that. Yes, we decided we just set aside two weeks next March, I think it is. And then we can say anybody wants to come and we'll just run together and talk. No, that's great.
And so many other things like that. Is there anything that we didn't chat about that you want to chat about? This is just rambling and off we went. Yeah, the difficult thing is we're in agreement on just about everything.
I think that's a fine thing. I think it's important. I don't have a problem with that. Look, if somebody wants to come in and totally disagree with me, I have no problem with that as well.
But it's important for people to hear the same or similar messages from different people in different angles because to a certain extent, we are fighting... Actually, I read before we started this, I made a little video because just to remind myself of something that I want to say and it goes like this, I say, do your feet feel better at the end of the day than they did at the beginning of the day. And if not, you're not alone. And it's probably because Big Shoe has been lying to you about what makes comfortable footwear and healthy, strong, and happy feet.
And I know that sounds like a conspiracy theory, but you're things like this. You find yourself going, yeah, that makes sense. Using your feet is better than not using your feet, which flies in the face of what people have been telling you for decades. And so hearing it from different angles and slightly different even accents is important because otherwise it seems like I'm the only crazy person out there.
And it takes a certain critical mass until what we're talking about really takes hold. And we thought it was going to happen after things got popular in 2009, 2010. But there was a lot of deliberate efforts on part of Big Shoe companies to make that not happen. So we're having this conversation is important, whether it's people agreeing with each other or disagreeing with each other.
Because frankly, when I'm talking to someone who disagrees with me, the other person sounds insane because I say it's like using your feet is better than not using your feet. And they say, everybody needs our support. What do people do prior to our support coming about in the late 60s? Oh, what happened in third world countries where they don't have our support?
How come they don't have problems? Oh, so I think all that's really important. Yes, definitely. I think it makes it a good bear stick.
I'm really glad that I'm not. I think it would probably bring out the worst aspects of my personality. Or I like to- I don't know that high- these patients come in very skeptical. They spend thousands on orthotics and they come in and they're uncomfortable and I just guess, let's get rid of those and just be one session and do my quick programme.
You can have it on video and you just do that, keep in touch. That's all you're going to have to do. But they say, oh, that sounds really sensible. That's logical.
Yes. What she explains it to them is she does it very well. Yeah, that's very sensible. So, you know, this is the thing that amazes me.
And I say this with a genuine kind of admiration as a marketer that when I see what shoe companies have done in the last 50 years by convincing people of things that are just frankly complete bullshit, it's utterly amazing. And what we're doing now is trying to just wake people up to what they already knew. Irene Davis again points out really well. We know that humans have been making footwear for 10,000 years because that's the oldest piece of footwear we found.
In the first 9,950 of those years, it was just as little as you could get away with it to give you some protection and something to hold that on your foot and then it changed. And when people hear that, it's like, hey, wait a minute. So everything we're saying is logical. It does make sense.
One of the things I like to point out is when you put padding under your heel, you end up landing on your heel, not because you necessarily want to use the padding, but because you end up hitting it. It just lands on the ground first before you have a chance because it gets in the way and your heel is a ball until a ball is unstable. So then they added motion control. And when you do that slapping thing that we talked about at the beginning of the call, when you land your heel, your foot slaps down, your arch is not in a place where it's weak when it needs to be strong.
So then they have arch support so you don't need to use it. Everything that we know about modern footwear was developed after the problem that it created. And you think it's normal because everyone does it that way because the footwear industry is just a bunch of copycats, whatever celebrations they do. Yes, the other point.
Right. Now that we're second two generations in, its parents teaching their children instead of the companies have to do it. They're doing the work for the shoe companies. So that's right.
It's I'm hoping that this doesn't take longer than another generation until it changes because I'd like to live to see it. And but I don't think it needs to take that long with what's happening with social media, what we're all doing. I think that it can change much faster because again, we're not trying to convince people of something that's bullshit. We're just reminding them what they already knew.
So I'm hoping that this whole idea of making natural movement the obvious better healthy choice the way natural food is happens way way faster. And frankly, what we're trying to do as a company is first of all support other companies and people that are doing this and secondly get the resources that we need to tell this story on a much bigger scale because that's what it's going to take. And I'm looking forward to it. It gets me very excited and antsy and just one thing.
Yes. You see, I mean Davis, by the way, she has a copy of our book. She's ready yet, but Heidi sent her a copy because she's she knows what she does. I don't know what she's ready.
But if you see, I'm we don't have plans on the immediate future. There are a couple of events that we're doing coming up where we'll definitely bump into each other. And so I will definitely mention that. And by the way, it is a wonderful book.
I have a sack of books about this. I am like, I'm using it. It's been really fun, actually. So you and Marco Cozzella has his book run for your life.
And there are a couple of others that have come out recently that people have sent me and there's actually on sprinting training. There's a great book. It's a very expensive book from Joel Smith. And so there's all these and there's one or two that I'm forgetting right now is making me crazy.
And so I'm just like, you're subconscious working on it. Let's just parse that. There's a part of me that's working behind the scenes and I should just be okay with that. That's freaky.
Oh, John Beverly, his book as well. So there's a lot of people who are starting to have these conversations. And unfortunately, I can't get through all the books as quickly as I want to. So I just go to the parts that I like and adore.
All the parts that I've gotten through on yours. I'm just at the word, which is why we're having this conversation. It took us four years of very hard work to get it into the form is and we use a number of editor. Well, I had somebody who worked with me who's extremely pedantic.
I was editing in a cafe one day and he lived in the same block as me and he walked in and said, what are you doing? And I said, I was doing a book and he pointed to an eight or a sheet of paper and said, oh, there are two using that word. What? That's just needed as a basis.
And he spotted that from a distance. Nice. So it's a common help. So for the next three years, we spent two or three days a week sitting three or four hours at a time getting the detail of it right.
And then we put it to an editor who rearranged it for us and we did the same again. And then we put it to another editor, a different first one was a runner and the second one was government scientific editor. Oh, really? And also after the first edition, we kept in touch with readers and we saw the problems and the misinterpretations that they made, things that you'd wrong.
And each time they made a note of that, we built it in so that hopefully people wouldn't make the same thing again. Yeah, there's nothing more fun than putting out something like a book or a video. And then a couple years later, hearing someone claiming to be quoting you and saying the exact opposite of what you believe. That's exactly right.
And we tried to get out and get that message out in the book. And we still have to now, even people say things and say, be careful, that's not really what we meant. Don't focus on this. But we've got I think 15 or 16 Amazon reviews and they're all five stars, except the one three star, but we're going to ignore that.
It's very vague. We know we're doing the right thing. No, it's great. I'm a huge fan, obviously.
The other one that I love is that you'll have multiple professional editors go through something and there will still be a typo or something that happens and people act when they happen. I don't think you get it, man. We had a lot of smart people. Look at this.
This just happens. I'm going to put my head on the block and say there are no errors in the book now. Wow. That is false.
No typos at all. What gets me is on our website when someone emails me and says, I found a typo on this page that's eight years old. It's like, how did no one tell me this before? Either they notice or they just didn't tell me.
That's a big problem being wrong. I like to correct it, so I always appreciate that. I also know my personality. I try to get things out of my head quickly and while we have multiple people in the office will proofread things.
We went through that process a hundred percent and then I just read the book, and I justified the word, and then even she didn't spot. It was about six months later, that there's one little spending mistake on the back cover with an eye missing output ability or something. We've directed those two now and that's the way of printing on demand. It's brilliant.
Keith, two things. First of all, thank you very much for keeping me. I hope you go check out ODE at Basser.com and check out the book and check out all the videos. And we are of course dying to hear what you experienced.
Please say hello to Heidi for me and let her know that we will have this exact same conversation with her because she has her own perspective from the podiatry standpoint, which I'm really looking forward to sharing with people because it's another thing people will say to me, where's the science behind what you're doing? Well, we're not the intervention. The intervention is footwear companies ask them for the science for what they're doing. It doesn't exist.
Yes. And that's the one where they should. I had a guy in fact, it occurs to me when I was on this panel discussion with the American College of Sports Medicine. The guy from Adidas at one point says, we want to prove that we're reducing injury and improving performance.
But to do a study that demonstrates that would take a long time and be very expensive and have a lot of confounding factors. And all I can think is, dude, if you could make a shoe that's scientifically demonstrably demonstrably better than the guy sitting next to you, that's worth billions of dollars a year. And you're telling me you're not doing it because it's difficult? Okay, good answer.
So anyway, so yes, we will continue all of this and do what people listening and watching do let us know what you experience. And we'd love to hear your feedback on that note. Make sure you go to jointhemovementmovement.com and find out all the places you can experience and interact with what we're doing on Facebook, on YouTube, on Twitter, et cetera, et cetera. If you have any questions, please send them to move at jointhemovementmovement.com.
Or of course, you can post them in comments and everything we're doing here. If there's anyone that you want to be on this show or you want to be on, then let us know about that as well. I know there's other things that I'd like to say other than, oh, obviously the simple thing, if you want to be part of the tribe, please subscribe because this is a movement. When we say the movement movement, it's because it's obviously about natural movement, but it's about building this community of people who understand this and share this with other people.
So we can create that groundswell, that critical mass where this just becomes the obvious thing and what people have been doing for 50 years looks completely absurd. And just like we're all delusional for some short period of time. And on that note, Keith, once again, thank you and everybody else. Live life, feet first.
Thank you.