One more for the road. Nike recently announced two new game-changing products. And we're going to see if that's a good game or a bad game. We have some special guests.
We're going to chat about this before we even introduce those. Let me just show you what we're talking about. These are the two new Nike products. The first is the Nike Mind Project.
And here's what that looks like. I'll show you more about it in a second. And then there's also the Nike Amplify Project. We'll be talking about that as well.
But let's first see who's joining us for this conversation. So I'm going to pick people in no particular order to introduce themselves. This is how it's showing up on my screen. And part of the weird lighting that I have in my office.
Courtney, would you tell people who you want and what you do? Sure. So we are an education company on educating all things throughout that work. And Irene Davis, you're next.
Hi, Irene Davis. And I was the founding director of the Spalting National Running Center at Harvard Medical School. I've recently moved down to the University of South Florida. We're a professor in the School of Physical Therapy and Rehabilitation Sciences in the more sunny college of medicine, USF.
I just think the idea of moving from Harvard to Florida is so brilliant having spent one horrible week in Cambridge in February and wanted to shoot myself. So good on you. Jada Sherry, you are next. Hi, everybody.
My name is Jada Sherry. I'm a physical therapist, author, founder of a board and I'm part of faculty here at Oregon State University in the P.T. program. And yeah, trying to get better information out to help you get better information, to do all the things that help you get your goals.
Thank you. And you can't see her on screen. I don't know why, but Emily Splickel tell people who you are. Hi there.
My name is Dr. Splickel, functional pedagogy. I'm a moving specialist educator on barefoot science. And I'm also the founder and CEO of Novoso, which is a sensory based product line that we use to stimulate the nerves in the bottom of the beat to support movements longevity.
That may be appropriate for what we're going to talk about. So let's dive into the Nike Mind Project and start there. And just to give people a taste of what we're talking about, I'm going to screen share again and show what happens when you go to Nike.com. Slash mind.
And so this is the main image that you're going to see. This video floating around. And you can see it's a shoe with these little balls in it that kind of move when you step on them. I'm going to scroll down and say mind altering shoe.
Activate your senses to enhance your pregame routine. And this is my, well, we're going to come back to this line here, but I'm just going to highlight it now. Other shoes, black sensation. Nike Mind technology amplifies it.
Works mind-gauging the sensory areas of your brain via the thousands of mechanical receptors under foot. And it's a new way of connecting your body and brain for your biggest moments. Engage your senses with the Nike Mind. It'll help you get out of your head.
Connect with the surroundings and stay more present in the moment. I'm going to cut to another page to show you my favorite line. Now, these are the first shoes designed from the brain down, not the ground up. And there's a line somewhere.
I'm not sure if it's in here. The idea is, well, here these products are designed to have these 22 bright orange foam nodes designed to move when the wearer walks or runs in this sense, stimulation of the brain and improves concentration. There's a little more to it. There's a line somewhere where they say that what they did is they figured out where to put those 22 little nodes based on what is providing the most stimulation to the brain.
Where to begin? My God, I could jump in on this forever, but I'm going to let someone else take the first shot at it. Well, don't maybe pick someone as what I was going to say. I was going to say, I think that Dr.
Sweekos should be the first to go because of her focus on this area. Yeah, no, absolutely. Well, one, the first thing that I would think about is the specificity of mechanoception is two-point discrimination and then you have skin stretch and your vibration. So let me pause because they do mention somewhere in one of these articles that this is all about.
Oh, here, wait, I'm going to back this up. I did find that quote. And since you're not on screen, I'll put this up. And maybe I'll scroll around as we do it.
So let me go back to sharing. And using sensory science, we mapped where the feet are most sensitive. What's called two-point discrimination threshold and placement nodes accordingly. So despite what two-point discrimination is, and you thought you were going to go about the placement of these 22 little starter balls.
Yes, so that is definitely not two-point discrimination. Two-point discrimination through the mercuel disc, the SA1 mercuel disc in the bottom of the feet. The acuity is around one millimeter. So to be this large and that space is really not two-point discrimination, it's about, it's a braille.
So the acuity and the finite stimulus that your boat is actually looking for mirrors that of braille. That is why if anyone looks at the negostal products, which we have a patterns around our texture, is based around a two-millimeter difference between these pyramid peaks, it has to be subtle, and has to be finite, for you to actually stimulate that. You give me a fun memory of when we were designing our first sandal and on the footbed, we had a very, very, very fine texture. And people put this thing on their foot, it's like, oh, this is really annoying, because they were so sensitive.
Now keep in mind, actually, you can't see it from the video of the product. But those little balls, they kind of move in two and a half dimensions. So it's not just straight up and down. If you press on them at an angle, that does a little something.
But the part that cracks me up, starting with this, there's a whole lot of space in between those balls. So there's a whole lot of information that's anywhere. And then, willing up another, I want to see if I can get this other image that kind of cracks me up, just about the discrimination component of things. And I'm looking for a better version of this picture.
I'm looking at, oh, open image in new tab. Let's see if that works. This is one of my all-time favorite words, the homunculus. And the homunculus is basically just a map of how your brain relates to your body.
And we like to say that your feet, your cells, if you have more sensory input than your fingertips and your lips and mouth. But my favorite part about this is if you're, and this is not a great image here. But if you look at the way, the amount of information that is going to your feet, there's more information going to your toes than the rest of your foot. But if we go back to the Nike mind image, there's nothing happening at your toes.
So they're leaving out just a giant chunk of where your brain is paying attention. By the way, for people who are noticing the toes on your brain are very closely related to where your genitals are. So if you have a foot fetish, now you know why. Okay, anyway, Emily, thank you for that one.
Who else wants to chime in on just this whole neurosensory thing and starting from the brain down? I would just like to ask the question, show me the data, right? So have they done research on the brain? Have they actually shown that there are changes in the brain as a result of these shoes?
I haven't looked into it far enough, but just wondering if anyone else here on the call has. I've looked for the same and haven't found it. I've just heard the comments that, again, it's the thing that stimulated the most brain activity. That's where they decided to put these things, which seems improbable at best, especially again, considering how little of the soul of the foot those things are actually covering.
Yeah, I mean, if they actually stimulate those parts of the foot and looked at brain activity, that's different than having someone wear the shoe and looking at the brain activity, right? Completely different. So I don't know whether they've actually looked at brain activity with the shoe because it could be doing absolutely nothing. Well, there's the other component, which is that the shoe is pretty thick.
And so you're not getting a whole lot of foot in motion. So that's gonna affect what is or isn't happening again. And even more than whatever they might have done for looking at actual brain activity is, how were they met or what was the person doing wearing the shoe while they were measuring that? Were they just literally standing on someone's surface?
Were they walking across something? I mean, there's a line, I've got to find it again. I'm gonna look for something while anyone else chimes in. Steve, I just say this.
I mean, if we can just not even talk about the shoe for a second, like whenever you're trying to do anything to help a patient learn a new skill, we want to set them up an environment for success, right? An environment we look at deals with what they feel from a sensory standpoint, so sensation deals with what we have going on distracting the brain, right, challenging limbs. So we try and meet the patient where they are, right? And give them the best environment to succeed.
And when you look at people up looking at F1 these days, right, like would you rather drive an F1 card on the track back to 180 miles an hour or drive your grandpa's Buick, right? Like your grandpa's Buick was very well probably unstable, couldn't feel very much, couldn't handle very well, because you can't feel what's happening at the wheels, your pike could drive very well. Well, same thing you look at, if I want to improve some aspect of the way you move, I'm looking at giving you as much contact as possible, enough surface discrimination as possible, and really helping you be an environment to succeed. So that's the definitions we've had for sort of, you know, the guiding principles you've had operating around human control for centuries, right?
So now I'm not asked what is the reason then to do what? Take away sensory input by putting people on soft sensory foam, we're jacking them off the ground, we're muting sensation, we're adding rockers around the ankle and the forefoot, change what happens by mechanically and look like these points aren't, and it's how I'm really designed. When I look at them, I'm like, oh, this is easy for their manufacturing process to stay at these pods in certain locations. They don't correspond in any way to joint structure of the body.
So what I'm trying to say, I'm looking at the data, yeah, let's see some data because what you just did doesn't basically uphold any truth and ability about how we look at motor learning and better environment for improving control. So in short, you can't wait to get a pair to get there, right? While you're saying that, I found a line that I wanted to highlight that cracks me up in particular. I'm gonna do this in reverse order.
You know, I'll do the whole thing. I'll read it for those of you who aren't watching. Nike argues the mind of range of footwear will give athletes many of the benefits of being barefoot, but with much greater protection. So violating everything you were just saying about getting sensory input and then there's a quote, quote, bearfoot gives you sensation, but not protected support says one of the people with Nike mind delivers both it reawakens your natural connection to the ground while still protecting the foot.
It's like being grounded and cushioned at the same time. Now, I'm not gonna make this a commercial, but look behind me. I mean, what a shock that someone came up with this idea of letting your foot feel the ground and be protected at the same time. I wish we had come up with something like 16 years ago.
I don't know, some sort of flexible sandal to let your whole foot safely feel the ground, but I mean, that would just be crazy. So, oh, and then if we took that idea and turned it into a whole bunch of things that could do the right amount of protection for the activities you're doing with support for things like that. I mean, that would be crazy if someone could come up with those ideas, but I'm not gonna make this a commercial. Courtney, do you want to add anything to where we landed?
I'm always thinking about these things from a patient perspective. And when I see these types of products come out, I always think about what would, when my patients put them on their feet, what is going to happen? And to piggyback off what Jay was saying, all that cushion and stack head in the design of the shoe is kind of contradicting what they're saying with we want to increase sensory input and we're going to try to make this a better environment for the patient, but then they're actually complicating things by making this on the soft swishy phone. So, imagine my patients starting to walk with this thing and I just don't see how that's going to go well for them.
Yeah, I want to come back to the line that I skipped over very briefly when we first looked at this, which is perhaps my favorite. Other shoes, blocks sensation. And every other shoe made by any company that isn't doing something, and I'm using big air quotes around the phrase barefoot because anything that gets in between your foot and the ground is minimizing sensation of a certain amount. Undeniably, we've never argued otherwise.
But our goal, like we say barefoot is best and when that's not appropriate, that's why we're here. And we want you to be as close to barefoot as you can. But I love this thing, other shoes, blocks sensation. What are you saying about the rest of your brand?
Yeah, I was going to make the same point that they're soft and squishy, but so are other other new innovative shoes, right? This is what it's all about as being soft and squishy. We took soft and squishy and made it so you could feel a little bit of something. And we don't even know if you can feel a little bit of something.
Have you put them on? Has anyone got their hands on a pair? Not yet. I did watch a video of someone and he made a comment.
It feels like I'm getting a little bit of a foot massage when I'm walking, which I thought made sense. I don't know how much because it didn't look like I have a video somewhere, the amount of indentation or for lack of better, because I can't think of a better word in the footbed didn't seem like very much. But it's one of these things that I know from testing many, many products that over time you tend to acclimate to things anyway, and you just stop noticing them. So what's happening beyond that initial hit of like, oh, I can feel something that I wasn't feeling before, back to the whole brain thing.
And they're pitched that what they're promising is things like get out of your head, connect to your surroundings. I like connecting your surroundings in particular, because the actual name of our corporate entity as your issues are actually company names feel the world. So they just did connect with your surroundings instead of taking the line of mind and then be more present in the moment. Again, this is not news to me.
We hear from people when they are putting on, I'm not trying to make this commercial, I swear to God, but walk barefoot, just do it that way and see what happens with your presence in the moment because you're suddenly getting information in your brain that you weren't getting before, stimulation you weren't getting before, connected to surroundings, how can you not when you're getting this information. So again, the idea that there, I mean, this is what we've known for thousands of years. Your brain is connected to your feet with, what are these things called? I know you get the word right, is it nerves?
Is that the word? I can show something else that it makes me think of though, is that when you're doing a new stimulus in an unstable, this is Jay made me think of this. Like, let's say I want to stay on a busy ball as an example, I will be forced to be more present because it's unstable. So this kind of reminds me of like shape ups, fit flops, like things that used to push the individual to get higher EMG activation.
And then of course that was swayed in a different way or marketed different. But that's also something that may be fun in a way for marketing. But of course, just going to be more brain activation because you're on an unstable surface. Well, and what you just said makes me wonder, when Nike came out with the self-lacing shoe, the back to the future shoe, it was really just a marketing play.
I don't know if they're expecting this to sell a bajillion pairs or if it's going to come and go in a season or what it is. One of those things that's crazy enough looking that it could sell a bunch just because of that. And again, I guess I should back up. I am so happy that they're doing this because what they're basically doing is validating what we've been saying for the last 16 years.
And which makes me not nervous. People used to say to me, what would happen if a big company started doing what you're doing? And say, then we won. We're not here to become the next film in the blank giant company.
We're here to change the world by giving people the reminding people and giving the opportunity to use their feet the way they're meant to be used. So if this is the gateway to opening up this conversation about natural movement, I'm all for it. We can create a lot of content about the gap between what this thing is doing, high, inflexible, et cetera, and what any of the companies that are doing with natural movement is in fact, it just reminds me of what was happening in 2010 when in 2009, all the major footwear brands were saying, this whole barefoot thing is complete bullshit. And by the end of 2010, they were coming out with quote minimalist shoes and using the same language that we were using for products that weren't delivering the same benefits.
And so I think we're more about that because you were researching those. Well, the thing I worry about, Steven, I think you're right, but people who are not educated in this area are gonna jump to those shoes because they're high tech, they're cool, they're new, and they're gonna think that's the way to get the sensory input as opposed to, and they're a whole lot easier to adapt to, especially for running, right? Cause then we'll take some time. You know, you've got to build a capacity.
And so I worry a little bit, I'm not happy about it. I just think that it just worries me, is that it just seems like they really, and I'll talk about this in the Amplify too, do they don't really care about this board of running. They care about marketing. Yeah, we'll be.
I really feel that way because the things that they're doing are counterintuitive when you think about just like everyone saying about sensory input and maybe as close to the ground as possible. So I do worry a little bit about how people might jump to it. It's in 2010, I remember having arguments with physicians who were saying, oh, we're seeing more patients, everyone from these people who were getting to barefoot running, and I'd say to them, when a patient came in to see you, did you actually ask if they were in barefoot? And they go, what do you mean?
I go, what were they running in barefoot? Or were they running in a pair of shoes that were sold as a barefoot shoe? Cause in 2010, there was actually only one, maybe one and a half truly quote barefoot shoes. And almost nobody was wearing those.
I mean, we were making sandals and those people weren't going to doctors. But you know what, sorry to interrupt, but there was a problem in the beginning because if you look at some of the studies that talked about the injuries that were happening with the minimal shoes and some of them were the five fingers. I mean, they had no transition period. They jumped right to running.
So I think the biggest problem there was that people didn't realize that these shoes are not just regular shoes and you have to build a capacity just like you wouldn't go to the gym, lift 100 pounds the first time. I think that was the bigger problem with that. Well, there was another problem which was a statistical problem is let's say for the sake of argument, people were getting injured. What rate were they getting injured at?
And how does that compare to the injury rates in regular shoes? And all I can say anecdotally from the last 16 years is that we don't hear from, well, another page on the Nike website talks about a study they did back, I think they did a study in 2019 and it's never been published, but a number of people on the skull, including me have copies of it, where they, they're best selling running shoe injured 30.3% of the people wearing it in a 12-week half marathon training program and a new shoe only injured 14 and a half percent. And the way this was publicized all around the world was new Nike shoe reduces injury rates by 52%. But my God, if we injured 14 and a half to 30% of the people wearing our shoes in 12 months, I'd be in jail right now.
And that's the best you can do after 50 years of R&D. Something's very wrong with this picture. So the comparisons were never really made. And to your point, the trans, no, actually, it's another thing that I would ask people when they said that running barefoot or minimal shoe causes injuries, to say we're not talking about footwear, we're talking about form.
Were you doing gate analysis of these people that you were looking at? I remember going to the lab at the University of Colorado and there was a whole article about this whole barefoot running thing, because there was a researcher there, Dr. Roger Kram who was doing research sponsored by Nike and one of the picture, or the picture with one of these articles was someone running in barefoot massively overstriting and plant inflexing point in their toes. They're actually running like that.
They're going to get a stress fracture, I mean, undeniably. So just the confusion about what this whole thing is or to your point, I mean, every time I see a study now that is a, especially if it's a quote anti-barefoot study, they'll usually say something like, we gave the subjects time to acclimate to running barefoot by spending five minutes on a treadmill or something equally ridiculous. Or sorry, my last thought, I got too many. One of the first big conferences about barefoot running here in Boulder, a lot of PTs were saying, well, it could take you five years to actually acclimate to doing this.
And they were going on just saying things that sounded completely absurd to me. And I finally raised my hand and said, how many people in this room other than me have run at least a mile in bare feet on a road, on concrete? And no other hands went up. I said, you're just making this up.
You haven't researched yet. And now you're just literally pulling out of your butt. It must have keep your own jobs. So anyway, we're just reliving literally.
I just feel like we've gone back in time 16 years. It's totally crazy. Before we move to amplify, anybody else on anything else about mind? Yeah, I guess I'd piggyback it to my re-in-set too.
It's like, I look at, I think all of us in this call can kind of weed. There's things a little bit and call BS. And I think we live in a world where people want things to be simple, right? And let's just go back to this.
You're calling to shoot the mind, right? You're talking about some aspect of neurobehavior, right? How does my brain respond to sensory and how does it respond to output, right? And I'm going to kind of hold the pulse things together.
What we're saying is the environment that this shoe's putting you in is making it harder for you to feel. And bi-mechanically, it's making harder for you to actually work, right? Those squishy mass of marshmallows and that rocker underneath. Pods and opods, right?
It's not the way your foot's designed to work. So again, if you're going back to what is happening with the mind, I mean, man, PR firm, kudos to calling this, right? But like, you literally took the mind out of it. OK?
You're putting people in a position where it might be novel. It might be different, right? But it's not better, right? And again, this is not me debating a shoe.
This is basically debating, like, underrepresented theories of motor control and neuroscience and how we actually learn it. I think that if we're going to give people of information on how this happens, like, you should see all those pieces of the puzzle being integrated, not phased out. Well, given your point that this is making it harder, let's move to amplify, which is all about making it easier. So here's a couple of things about amplify.
So you can see it's a little exoskeleton that is tied into a shoe. You can wear the shoe without the motoring motor control part. But here's what it says. Also, I'm built by Nike.
Prototype design is prototype. They're done with time for when they're going to release this. Well or not, who knows? Motorized exoskeleton-like device that attaches to the lower leg provides power boost for running or walking by helping.
I love this line by helping to lift the wearer's heel. Let's put a bookmark there and come back to that. Let me find another thing about amplify. The world's first powered footwear system for running and walking designed to help everyday athletes and anyone who moves as an athlete is what they say.
Go a little farther, a little faster and farther, all with less effort. Let's put a bookmark on that. Engineer to augment lower leg and ankle movement to try to amplify system breaks the perception of possibility. Great line by providing an unparalleled boost to anyone who wants to move creating a new future for running, jogging and walking.
I love how they separate running and jogging. Blah blah blah blah blah. I'm just going to leave it there. Actually, built on motion algorithms informed by the Nike Sports Research Lab, the first generation footwear system is comprised of a lightweight, powerful motor, drive belt, and rechargeable cuff battery that seamlessly integrate with carbon fiber plate and running shoe that can be worn with or without the robotic system.
This makes it easier for everyday athletes to run, walk or run more often for longer amounts of time while having more fun, adding movement to their lives, extending their walking commute, or helping them to enjoy the run for another mile or two. I think that's a fine place to pause and let anyone jump in. It looks like you're jumping at the bed. I mean, when I saw that I was just kind of in a state of shock about the whole thing.
There are so many things there that just are not, they're not going to work for me. I mean, if we take it down to the very simple statement of, if you don't use it, you're going to lose it, a product like that is basically, I don't even know how that would work, but is going to provide everything for the patient that the person cannot do themselves. I just don't understand anything about that. Well, how it works, I've watched the video.
And if you look closely, I mean, this line of it lifts your heel, that's of course not biomechanically possible. It's just basically, it takes a little while to pay attention to how you're walking and then once it gets enough info, then you can continue doing whichever activity that is. And in the gait cycle, basically, once you get to mid-stance, it's just plan a flexing your foot. It's just articulating the ankle.
I think that when they talk about that product, if they're saying this is for everyone, now when I look at that, I'm like, hmm, that could have implications for a compromised population. You know, if there was someone that had trauma or fusion or something that could facilitate their gait. Well, hold on, hold on. Conversation.
Hold on, I wonder. And I think it's probably true, but the way that the videos that I've seen about the product, it's basically, let's watch you walk and then we're going to add something to that. But for people who are severely compromised, they're having a hard time walking to begin with. So how much is it going to add to what they're already doing that's problematic?
But I do think that there's going to be some application to be more helpful for people who have limited mobility to begin with. So the AI will not be the thing learning and then amplifying a little bit. It's going to be more augmentation, which, look, I'm having flashbacks when I got back and sprinting and pulling calf muscles because I got screwed up spine. And I would wear a pair of MBT shoes, a big rocker bottom shoes, because I didn't have to use my calves while I was healing.
So in that context, you know, valuable, but the everyday athlete part. I don't think they can actually, I mean, I had the same feeling about, this would be great for someone who maybe had a stroke or a mild stroke. I've had runners who want to run and they had a mild stroke and they didn't have the same function on the other foot, but then it becomes a medical device and that opens up a whole new can of worms. So I don't think they're going down that path.
I think advertising this as something for runners tells me that they don't care about the sport. They don't care about the sport. And that hurts. I'm really upset about that.
That upset me more than anything. And I've always hung on to the fact that maybe they do, but I don't think they do. To create a shoe that, just like you said, if you don't use it, you lose it, a shoe that doesn't allow normal motion, there's no way when you've got an articulated joint at that wherever it puts it, that your foot is going to move across all the joints, the 26 articulations, 26 bones, 32 articulations, whatever it is in your foot, six degrees of freedom, your foot can't move that way. It's bad enough at a regular running shoe, just let alone a shoe that's basically an orthotic brace.
Well, the only way this shoe can work is if it's completely stiff. I mean, there's no other way that you could actually have this work mechanically. And so yeah, it's just, yes, you can, actually my version is based, I can't remember where I saw it, but something about it making it easier. Well, the whole value of exercise is that it's not easier.
And e-bike for the runners, what they called it. Remember? Yeah, yeah. They're tagline.
I was thinking about that this morning as I watched a couple of kids go into school on e-bikes. And I was thinking, kind of, I hope there's some parents. If there was ever going to be a place where there would be parents who would not let their kids ride e-bikes Boulder, Colorado, where they're like, no, you need to be healthy, not just riding a glorified or a dumb down motorcycle. But that's what, I mean, all the kids are doing that.
And I worry about that. Yeah, for decades, I've been having this quote. I was too quote. I always say, you can't fire a cannon from a canoe, and you can't put a gendry on a paper airplane.
Those things don't work. So now we've got a new shoe. And again, runners have shown they're open to new stuff. I mean, look what's in the wall of your retailer now compared to what it was five years ago, right?
So it's like, we're in the Wild West, Mad Science, you know, time so, you know. Wait, hold on, Jake. Wait, I gotta clarify. They're open to something new if they think it's going to make it easier and better.
And make more money. And money, yeah. But so now you've got this environment where, you know, things, again, are more unstable, right? And now you're going to add like an engine to this.
It's like, this is the best people for disaster. I mean, look, it's like, I know we live in a world where people want things sexy and clean and lovely. But, you know, let me tell you about my life, right? Last week, I got a call from a coach at a D1 School who's like, hey, we've resisted super shoes for the first time.
And I think that's the best thing I've ever, as long as you possibly can. The kids are chomping the bit. We finally took that leap. And guess what?
Half a team got hurt, right? Like, so I think most people don't understand. This is a totally different environment. You never jump from one thing to something totally different.
And that's what we're doing with this Wild West aspect of shoe design. And I think that when you look at what's happening, what are we doing? We don't know, right? Like you as a consumer operating off a marketing company, not science, right?
Not understanding about mechanics. And so we're happy to try and help explain this. But it's tough when we sit here on a Zoom call and say, why not? You probably got $5 billion in marketing budgets to try and sway you.
So pay attention to reality folks. I want the best for you, but I don't want it to keep bringing you to making poor decisions. I love that. My favorite saying is the closer we are to the way we evolve to move, the less our risk for injury.
And that applies to everything. Whether it's prolonged sitting or walking. And so the farther we get away from the way we evolved to move, the greater the risk for injury. Two year point j, there's that study that came out from Adam 1040, and the K series.
The K series on five particular stress- We just haven't seen yet. I work the medical ten. I take a break every now and then because I see very very ill people in the heat section So I have to come out and see why people are raising their hands and having a great time and almost every single person was Issues like this and almost every one of them was excessively everting excessively pronating because they were exhausted because of that higher midsole It increases the moment arm of that lateral ground reaction force which puts you into increases the eversion moment So you know for people listening it's it basically increases your tendency to pronate and so the muscle that controls it has to work really hard By the end of the race they couldn't do it. They were all pronating So I just think that we haven't yet seen the consequences of these shoes let alone that Nike amplify or the mind I would argue that we have seen them, but we're not hearing about it the way we should we haven't reported on it We don't have it in the literature, right?
Right and just to be clear about two things that you said for people listening one pronation not bad I'm not a nation or uncontrolled pronation bad and the the way we evolved to move some people will Miskure that and think well, but we didn't evolve to unbear foot on concrete I go first of all go to the place where we evolved and that ground is just like concrete with a bunch of crap sticking out of it And secondly even if we didn't evolve to run on concrete for 26 miles That doesn't mean we can't we may we have evolved in a certain place But that doesn't mean we're not able to supersede that as I'd like to say we didn't evolve to standing backlips If you want I can do one right now So it's there's just sort of an inverse naturalistic fallacy that people like to apply to that But yeah, I mean the other line of like it'll help you run longer. Well, here's a crazy question. Who really wants to run longer Yeah, I mean I don't think that's the goal that people have is like unless they're training for a marathon and you won't be able to wear these things When you're training or when you're actually racing so if you're wearing these things in training and arguably getting weaker because you're having something take over the function of the muscles like in attendance what's gonna happen when you go to race and My god and Jane I talked about this back to super shoes as a former all-American gymnast the first time I saw any one of those I went oh any foam is tuned to a weight and speed if you're not that weight running at that speed Then they're gonna mess you up They're gonna be out of sync with your natural bodies rhythm and you'll get messed up end of story and running should companies use a live Love to use the term energy return. Well, there's no such thing There's only energy suck and even the guys from out of us when they talked about the boost phones Like we're just trying to reduce the amount of energy We're sucking out of the system which again fine if you're at that mass at that speed and otherwise It's just totally out of back.
It's same with the carbon plates right? It's worse than the carbon plates I know people think the carbon plate is actually doing something other than just being structurally there This is my favorite thing people have to go to footwear events where the people selling that foam They call it what the industry calls it which is super critical foam Which is a term that came out of nuclear physics super critical is about to explode at any time So if it weren't for having the carbon fiber that stuff would just she or fall apart instantly But they think it's acting like spring or a lever There are well known people who are main-nameless unless one of you wants to mention this person's name Who is viewed as a footwear expert who has made both of those claims that the carbon fiber is a spring or a lever It's like that's not how physics works anything else other amplify thoughts I'm sure a couple of thoughts that just kind of echo off of what everyone said He means it obviously just prosthetics that they put into Consumer space and it's really looking at the ankle as a hinge Which the ankle is not a hinge there are spirals in the foot and if you take away those spirals Which is what Irene was saying you try to push them into root and the way that we are not designed to move you will find injuries So plus it's probably gonna be crazy expensive I hope this was just a demonstration to show what they would concept and it actually never comes to market just to essentially They're flashing their feathers a little bit, but yeah, I just see compensatory injuries happening because the English not a hinge I'm also looking I just wanna see if this is a video I just pull this up I'm not gonna show the video But I want to show you a pic look at the shoe that they're putting on look at the design of that shoe That is I mean holy smokes talk about squeezing your toes and reducing blood flow and all the other problems that that design creates Or can create that is freaking me out and of course this massive toast spring which people can see it So that's the part where well actually it doesn't look like the two-toespring looks like this smart thing of just reducing all the foam But this is all designed to to deal with the fact that your foot is not moving Here's the things that we built in because your foot's not moving to try to allow you to move at all But certainly not ultimately I mean Stephen I'm looking at all this and I'm thinking when you look at all the research that they bring to light if we were to like Try to find a positive in all of this especially with the men right with the mind they're bringing the research to light But it's almost like they're not taking it to fruition They're saying hey, this is what we're seeing but then they're not really explaining it as well And that's why I think these calls are so important because the education behind all of this is so important if Nike's going to We have a very large company that's going to bring some of this research to light And I think it's our job collectively to take that and really educate people and say hey This is where the what they're saying does make sense But the way they're implementing it is where the fault is and I think that's an opportunity for all of us to really further educate Well, that's why we're here And I'm hoping that we can do much more of it I mean the product comes out January 8th They say so we have from when we're recording this a little bit of time to try and create more content and be part of the conversation from very early on Because the thing that I will say about the big footwear brands and I say this with nothing but envy I assure you Is their marketing teams are brilliant They're really really good at telling stories that are simple and because they're simple and makes sense to people Those stories get locked in it's just that they're not true And it takes a long time to get people out of that I was going to say something that is not true It doesn't take long for people to snap out of the trance of marketing It just takes getting people to think for themselves by doing something a little sideways Like I say to people I have a dumb question for you and I swear to god it's not a trick question It's a stupid question So don't try to overthink it just first answer the pops in your head Which is better weaker or stronger and people still argue like well, I said don't ever think it Which is better for your body weaker stronger than the stronger I got cool So let's talk about the thing you don't want weaker if I want to make this arm weaker What do I do? You know don't use it Yeah, if I put a cast on my arm and support the joint let's come back to that word It gets weaker over time So you have like we're saying 26 bones 33 joints in your feet and ankles What happens if you put them in a shoe that doesn't let them move like putting a cast on your arm and people go oh And so if you put in orthotic that doesn't let a bunch of those things not move properly What happens like oh, I said so when it's getting weaker good for you There you go Okay, so there's a way of waking people up because we're also not enough to recognize reality But a good story can over can often overrule our ability to recognize reality So our job is to wake people up not it's not even educating we're not teaching them anything They don't already know it's just reminding them at fun time I talked with the former heavyweight world champion Lennox Lewis and at one point we have a great conversation about footwear And he said so what do you do about support? I said Lennox where'd you're up?
He said what do you wear on your feet when you're out playing till you're about 15? He said nothing I said what'd you do for support? He's I use my you know I also said him how do you not remember me? He said when did we meet?
I said 30 years ago You and I really only took guys a long hair at this big ESPN conference Is that true? It was true well, I had a cable television show it was actually it was a big cable television thing And he was there and I went and said hi we talked for like 30 seconds It was a long time ago I mean, I'm sure you're all aware that one study which is brilliant the protopopopo study that put healthy feet in orthotics for 12 weeks and had a 10 to 17 percent reduction in the size of the entrance of foot muscles So you think that's just 12 weeks how many people wear orthotics for only 12 weeks? Yeah, and I mean the thing that I was pointing out and thank you for reminding me I haven't quoted that study in a while for some strange reason But of course, you know, it does get asymptotic you only get weak to a certain point it doesn't go to zero But it gets bad there's no question about it Yeah, yeah, all right. Anything on either one of these incredible literally I mean the literal word incredible ideas The only thing I'm wondering about is who is going to jump on the bandwagon What other shoe companies are going to start coming up with their own wacky shoes?
It's an interesting question It took a couple years Well, look Hoka came out in around 2011 initially That's 12 and it took many years till people started copying that and frankly the first I don't know five years of that business Where they thought it was going to be a performance product And it just wasn't working what made it kick in was when elderly people started wearing it Which is of course the anti this is what they should be doing But that's when it started to take off and that's between that and the development of the lighter super critical foam That's when everyone kind of jumped on and then it was kind of the second wave where people were saying hey people are running faster And these which there's reason might have nothing to do with that foam Well, anyway, that's a whole other conversation But it took a while till when you go to a footwear trade show Everything is it some giant thick something or other? So I don't expect that people do this right away And if we're lucky and again, I'm not trying to make this a commercial for us If we're lucky it'll wake people up enough that what happens is those of us who are making footwear That's actually supposed to let your foot bend and move and flex and feel and give you the protection and just the right amount of support That that brings the awareness to that part of the market and it's really helpful rather than it turning into more crazy thing fingers crossed and not just for me literally Our only interest here is in getting people to be using their feet as naturally as humanly possible as often as possible And if that's where this goes and Nike becomes the number one leader in barefoot shoes Couldn't be happier because then I can retire and I already did my job anybody anything Going once going twice before I let you know I would just be like Concept awareness that people are like oh feed our sensory and I know that you've done Years of work pushing that Steven we all have but that's a big thing and then I stand so passionately behind mechanical section and the proper description and utilization of that stimuli So I just want people to be interpreting and using that Sensation appropriately don't bank on people using the words appropriately in the same way that people think proprioception means what your foot is feeling and not where your body is in space So I mean language will do its thing. I mean look people still argue with me and they go barefoot shoes That's an oxymoron. It's like I didn't make up the phrase other people started using it That's how people find us so language will do what it does But I do share the same hope that it's done well So let's go in reverse order for people who want to find out more about what any of you are doing I'll start with Emily and then we'll go back around the other way Absolutely.
So my functional podiatry practice is my name So drmlyslickle calm and then novoso which is a true mechanical subject stimulation product line with two point discrimination is novoso calm and ado s0 Dot com and we have over 40 products that stimulate the piece I love that you spelled novoso, but not spliggle so do you want to spell your name for people? Sure. My last name is splic Al so drmly splic Al or here's an easy one the functional foot doc calm cool. Thank you.
Yeah. Yeah, jerry found a remote board I'm always somebody today we walk and run forward but our foot was in spous and diagnosed and so do a mobile to try and improve the skill Coordination of feedback in your foot to build a good training environment like we talked about to try and help us succeed So you can follow us on a mobile mobile board on instagram and website mobile board calm dot us articles up there in the thought section So give a check out and mobile is easier than spliggle, but nonetheless m obo so mobio dot board or wait What was the other one I just mobile board calm there? I'm a board calm. It's a very very cool tool highly recommended Irene Okay, so I don't really have any products But if you want to keep up with me on twitter at Irene s Davis and just keep up with us in the literature We have articles coming on a minimal footwear have an ongoing RCT that's getting close to the end that Stephen has helped us with by supporting us with the footwear Looking at plantar fasciitis and looking at it's standard of care versus 180 degrees Which is removing all support and exercising the feet so that should be coming out I'd say well in the next year the trials just about done and we have some other minimal footwear studies coming out that have to do with biomarkers etc So yes, it pains me how long it takes for research to get done in it is it's yeah, it's a tough one and back to you Courtney Yes, my name is Courtney Conley the founder of gate happens So we have a bunch we're very passionate about bringing awareness to the foot So we have a bunch of online courses on how to improve your foot strength things like that And then I think I interviewed most of you, but the book is launching a may 5th of 2020 walk It is we're very excited about it and the overarching theme right is to get people out and walking and being aware of this movement But there is a lot of talk about footwear the importance of foot strength foot mobility So I'm really excited to have the platform to bring all of what we are all seeing here on hopefully a larger scale We can really spread this message someone had to do it and we're all grateful that it's you So thank you and so gate happens dot com for people.
Yes, perfect and I could have done this You can just find everything about zero shoes at zero shoes x eros shoes calm or for your in the EU EU or for your new k dot co dot uk or if your other places around the world we can point you there as well So everybody thank you so much. We'll probably do another one of these like after the product comes and the products come out Assuming that they all do and we start hearing what's bubbling up in the world in response I think that'll be an interesting time to check back in So everyone else until then as I like to say just go out have fun and live life be first