Evil Out on Parole

Carbon monoxide. You can't see it. You can't smell it. And without an alarm, you may not know it's there. Install carbon monoxide alarms on every level of your home and test them monthly. The more you know, the safer you'll be. Learn more at embridgegas.com slash safety. True Crime Brewery contains disturbing content related to real-life crimes. Medical information is opinion based on facts of a crime and should not be interpreted as medical advice or treatment. Listener discretion is advised. Welcome to True Crime Brewery. I'm Jill. And I'm Dick.

On the afternoon of June 26, 2010, a Pennsylvania state trooper witnessed a car driving erratically. It sped past him, and he watched as it crashed into a tree. Stopping to help, he found the driver was alive and covered in blood. When asked what happened, though, the man answered, I just killed everybody. Join us at the quiet end for evil out on parole. Not far from this accident, police found a gruesome massacre. Then they learned that the man responsible had already been convicted of murder before and had been out on parole for just two months. Convicted killer Michael Ballard had used his newfound freedom.

to murder four more innocent people, including an ex-girlfriend who had become his obsession. So we have one of my favorite beers to drink today. It's called Alien Church. It's brewed at Tired Hands Brewing Company in Ardmore, Pennsylvania. It's a New England IPA. 7% alcohol by volume. Great beer, if you're a hoppy person. I'm hoppy, yeah. So it's a hazy orange color, nice white head with some pretty lacing. Aroma's very nice. Tropical fruit, some citrus, and a little piney aroma later. And the taste is melon, mango, and orange. And then a little piney finish. Fairly hoppy beer. Nice one to drink.

Okay. Now, do we know why it's called Alien Church? That's an unusual name. I don't know why it's called Alien Church. Kind of a strange name, isn't it? It is. I thought maybe it would be from Roswell or something. Alien Church. But all right. Interesting. Sounds great. I'm a little hesitant on the pine, but I love some fruit. So let's open it up and give it a try. All right. We'll do that.

It does smell fruity. I'm not overwhelmed with pine, so I'm optimistic. No, I think you'll find that it's more fruit than piney hops. Awesome. All right. Well, I'm going to take my snifter over to the quiet end, and I hope you'll follow me. The case we're covering today was recommended by Cecily N., and we appreciate that very much, Cecily. Interesting case. Yeah, Cecily is from Oregon, and she also might send some beers, so we'll see if they show up. I'll stay on her good side. Yes, you should. So you can start us with this story today.

Okay, so it was December 6, 1991, when the Allentown, Pennsylvania police received a call from the co-worker of a 52-year-old man whose name is Donald Richard. The caller had concerns about the well-being of Richard, who hadn't shown up for his job at the state hospital for three days and was not answering his telephone. Law enforcement sent two marked police cars to Richard's downtown apartment. Now, although the block was mainly single-family homes, Richard's house was divided into apartments on the first floor and second floor. There was no answer when the police knocked at his apartment door. Then after getting a warrant, they entered the apartment, and the first thing that hit you was the smell of decomposition.

Immediately getting into that place, you're saying, oh, something bad happened here. Well, I often think about first responders, officers that enter a house on a wellness check and are confronted with this. I mean, how do they feel? I guess it depends on their level of experience with this sort of thing. But I would think if you're fairly new to it, if you're not completely hardened, that you're going to have a sick feeling and you're going to want to leave. It's going to be horrific. I think those are good observations. But then my mind goes to what if a family member found them? So much worse, right?

Yeah, it's still pretty bad either way. Yeah, but I mean, finding a stranger decomposing is certainly different than finding a family member decomposing. Very different. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So I guess what I'm saying here is I'm a proponent of sending the police on a wellness check before you just enter a home when you have really grave concerns that something like this may have occurred. Yes. That's all I'm saying. That's a long way around, but you did get it said. Yeah, I did. So inside of that apartment lying on a sofa, officers did find the body of Donald Richard. He'd been stabbed eight times. There were three stab wounds in his neck.

And he'd been stabbed twice in his back, once in his chest, his shoulder, and his lower lip. Now blood was spattered all over Richard, his sofa, and the wall behind him. On an end table next to the sofa, there were two open bottles of beer. So what would that make you think? It would make me think that Richard was with someone in his apartment. When it happened. When it happened. Sure. So once it was clear that they were dealing with a homicide, that was obvious, of course. The responding officers called evidence technicians to process this scene. Two different sets of fingerprints were lifted from the beer bottles, and one of them did match Richard. The other probably belonged to his killer.

Equally significant was what the investigators did not find. Richard's wallet was missing from the apartment, and his car, a blue 1991 Mustang, was nowhere to be found. The Allentown police issued a nationwide alert with a license plate number and a description of the car, asking any police department that saw it to stop the vehicle and to consider the driver as potentially armed and dangerous. Now, meanwhile, Detective Sergeant Dean Schwartz was called in as the lead investigator for the case. After serving nine years with the Allentown Police Department, he handled many of the major crimes, and that included homicides, robberies, and sexual assaults. So Schwartz began his investigation by interviewing neighbors and co-workers who knew Richard, and soon a picture of this man's life began to come clear. Yeah, Schwartz learned that Richard was a gay man who had been seeing several men between the ages of 20 and 35 in the months leading up to his death. One man who had lived with Richard referred to him as a trick and suggested that he regularly had sex with other men for money. After looking Richard up in the criminal database, Schwartz learned that on at least one occasion...

Emergency responders had been called to Richard's apartment because a man in his early 20s, who was apparently Richard's boyfriend, had become dangerously drunk and needed medical assistance. According to some people interviewed, Richard had a habit of handing out keys to young men so they could come in and out of his apartment. With no signs of forced entry at the apartment, it was possible that one of these young men could wind up as a prime suspect for Richard's murder. Well, yeah, that is a somewhat risky lifestyle to be having people you may not know that well come and go. Yeah, particularly handing out keys. Yeah. Why bother having a lock, really? Yeah. There's no control.

No. For whom I show up. Right. And if you've only known a guy a couple times, you don't know what they're really like. You're going to maybe say, oh, I'm not going to sleep with him again, but doesn't mean he's not going to use that key or even make a copy of that key. But by December 8th, there was no longer a need to pursue that lead. Donald Richard's stolen Mustang was recovered in Arkansas after it was pulled over. And inside the vehicle, they found Richard's wallet along with a serrated knife stained with blood. And then they arrested the driver. This was an 18-year-old man named Michael Ballard. The Allentown Police Department extradited Ballard back to Pennsylvania on theft charges.

And a check on Richard's credit cards showed that about $1,200 worth of purchases had been made at several stores from Pennsylvania to Arkansas over the past several days. So Ballard had not covered his tracks. Not at all. No, no. He left a trail of illegal credit card purchases, even going so far as to take his friends out to expensive dinners at fancy restaurants. So really kind of a psycho nutcase, to give you the technical terms on this. Yes. So many of these purchases were frivolous and random. Now also disturbing among the items in Ballard's possessions, there was literature from the Ku Klux Klan.

including writings that condemned homosexuals. One of the pamphlets cited verses from the Bible that said homosexuals should be put to death. So whether Ballard was a member of the KKK or not really wasn't clear. And it was also unclear what his relationship had been with Richard, or if he'd even had a relationship with Richard at all. But Ballard's connection to the crime scene was completely obvious. Lots of evidence. The case against Ballard got even stronger. His fingerprints matched the second set found on the beer bottles in Richard's apartment.

And then DNA testing of the blood found on the knife in the car that had been with him matched Richard himself. So they really had more than enough evidence to charge Ballard with homicide. He was committed to the Lehigh County Prison before the case against him grew even stronger. A nurse from the prison called to speak to the police after Ballard apparently confessed to her that he had been the killer. Well, he's not doing much to elude police, is he? No, I don't think that was his strong point ever. And he certainly left enough evidence. Plenty, yes.

So Schwartz sat down with Monica Fabian at the Allentown Police Department headquarters on December 13th at 10.42 p.m., which was just over an hour after she had met Michael Ballard at the Lehigh County Prison. So understandably nervous, Fabian described exactly what Ballard had told her. Fabian had been working as an intake nurse in the community services wing when Ballard was brought to her for a routine medical evaluation. And once they were alone together, Fabian began asking the questions she asked at all evaluations. Ballard appeared distracted and changed the subject. But he did tell Fabian that on December 1st, he'd gone out drinking at several Allentown bars.

and was taking a walk outside when a blue and gray Mustang passed him by. The car then pulled over not far from him, and Ballard approached it to take a closer look. The driver rolled down his window, Ballard claimed, and introduced himself as Donald Richard. Richard offered to have a drink with Ballard. So the two of them went to a nearby bar for a beer and started making small talk for a while. And after talking for about 90 minutes, Ballard explained that he needed to find somewhere new to live. And Richard told Ballard he owned an apartment complex with a few vacancies he was interested in renting out. So the two decided to meet at Richard's apartment the next night so that Richard could show him the available rooms. So when Ballard met up with Richard later,

Richard invited him to his own apartment before taking him to see the vacancies. And then he offered Ballard a beer. And as he started sipping the beer, Ballard said, Richard walked across the room and turned off the light. So Ballard said that Richard then began hitting on him and rubbing his crotch. And the next thing he knew, he saw him lying on the sofa with a knife in his throat. So he told the nurse that he had blacked out and didn't remember stabbing Richard. Ballard claimed that he was terrified at the sight of Richard's dead body. And in a state of panic, he claimed...

He pulled the knife out of Richard's throat and then took Richard's wallet and keys and ran out of the apartment. He told the nurse that he stole the Mustang and decided to drive straight to Arkansas, figuring that his father would know what to do. He said he wasn't really thinking about escaping. That's what he told her. And that's why he didn't bother getting rid of the knife and why he wasn't concerned about using Richard's credit card for fancy dinners. So this doesn't really add up. And you have to wonder, did he plan this all along? Did he set up Donald Richard for this? Because when you think about the literature in the car, it seems like he hated homosexuals. And then he seemed to claim that Richard hitting on him is what set him off.

Yeah, it does sound like that, doesn't it? Yeah, and why would you use his credit card and drive his car like that? That's the part that doesn't ring true. Yeah, I think a lot of it just doesn't ring true. I can see if they just met and what transpired resulted in Richard's death. But then to take his credit card, if his intent was to get to Arkansas, talk to his dad, why are you spending $1,200? Well, and you know, there's this thing called the phone. We could have called his dad, right? Yeah. So it's totally bullshit, in my opinion. Well, we don't know. Was that the first time they'd met? Maybe he was one of the kids or young males that were in the guy's apartment.

Could have been. Yeah. Yep. So Ballard did appear in court and pleaded guilty to murder in the third degree, along with additional charges for theft. After entering the plea, Ballard turned and spoke directly to the family members of the victim. He claimed that he had been trying to forgive himself ever since killing Richard, but that he did not expect the family to forgive him. So that's very generous of him. And he was sentenced to a minimum of 15 years in state prison, with a maximum of 30 years, then 10 to 20 for third degree murder, and another 5 to 10 years for the theft and credit card charges. So you think he would be in prison a long time, but he was released on parole in 2007.

It's around 15 years. Yep. And soon after that, he met Denise Merhi, and she was an assistant in a medical office where he had an appointment. So these two started dating, and they even lived together briefly at Denise's house, where she lived with her father, Dennis Marsh, her grandfather, Elvin Marsh, and her own daughter and son, ages 8 and 12. So, to people around them, Denise and Ballard appeared to be in love and planning a future together. They even had a wedding and pledged their love to each other and exchanged rings. But this wasn't a legally binding ceremony. Still, Denise called Ballard her husband, and he called her his wife.

They didn't have someone marry them. Well, it wasn't official. They didn't have a license. Yeah. But everything about their relationship did change when Ballard was accused of sexually assaulting a minor. The police investigated these allegations and questioned the victim. This was a girl who was known to both Denise and her good friend Marilyn. Marilyn said that they even tested the bedsheets where the assault had allegedly taken place. So the trust both Denise and Marilyn had felt toward Michael Ballard was shattered by these allegations. And then for a while, neither would even let him anywhere near their children. However, the victim was unable to tell police exactly what had happened to her.

The tests on the sheets turned up nothing, and Denise began to have doubts about Ballard's guilt. The police found they didn't have enough evidence to press charges against Ballard. And soon after that, both Denise and Marilyn began to feel comfortable being around him, and they even ended up letting him spend time with their children again. Well, I would tell you that if I was dating this guy, then I know he was in prison for murder. Right. Well, that would be your big first warning bell. And then he's accused of sexually assaulting a minor. I'm done. Yeah, I don't think, I think the murder would be enough for me. But yeah, I think assaulting the minor should probably be the end of it, especially if you had two children. Yeah. Yeah.

But we'll see. Denise had her own issues she was dealing with as well. So by April 2008, Michael Ballard was back in prison on a parole violation. He had failed to attend forensic treatment services and required anger management classes and was determined to be not amenable to treatment. But according to Ballard, he had only missed two appointments in the past 13 months, and he said they put him in jail because of the sexual assault allegations. So according to Ballard, this was a difficult time for him. He felt like he had everything he wanted, stability, a family, and a normal life with Denise, only to have it taken away and to be put back in prison.

So in September 2008, just a few months after he was reincarcerated, Ballard was found in his cell with a bed sheet tied around his neck. He did survive this and later would insist that he had not been trying to kill himself. So as difficult as it was, Ballard and Denise did try to stay committed to each other while he was incarcerated. So she's still in this relationship. In fact, the first day that Ballard was back in jail, Denise cried hysterically, according to her friends. And she later told Ballard that she felt like she didn't want to go on living if he couldn't be with her. Ballard was forbidden, though, to have any contact with Denise. Still, they did get around these restrictions every way that they could.

Ballard knew that the prison was monitoring his mail, so what he would do is he would write letters to other friends and they would pass them on to Denise. Ballard would also make phone calls to a friend who would secretly pass the phone over to Denise. Denise and her children would make scrapbooks with photos of the three of them and send them to Ballard. So at that point, it seemed like a pretty strong connection between the two. Yes, it did. But then as time passed, Ballard did get the sense that he and Denise were drifting apart, and his fears were legitimate. Denise started seeing other people, and eventually she got engaged to Brian Miller, the man she had left for Ballard in the first place.

She had not been in touch with Brian until after their breakup in December 2009 when he was traveling on a business trip. Then he sent her a text message half joking that she should go with him. Denise did not go on the trip with Brian, but they did meet up two days after he returned and they rekindled their relationship. So Brian moved back into her house and they made plans to be married in August 2010. So this is strange because Denise continued writing letters to Ballard for weeks as if nothing had changed. And she never mentioned Brian to him and she still insisted that she loved Ballard. So it's really hard to understand why she did that. It sure is because it's going to get found out.

Of course it is. Now, I don't know if she was afraid to tell him in prison because she thought he might hurt himself or she was afraid of him for when he got out. So he certainly would find out. But to me, I see more of like an instability with her. And maybe her mind was not completely made up one way or the other. It just kind of seemed like once Michael Ballard was out of the picture.

She went to Brian as kind of a backup, just someone to have around. Right. And she had a previous relationship with him. Yeah, she left him to be with Michael Ballard in the first place. So yeah, so if Ballard's out of the way, I might as well go back to the first guy. Yeah, it does seem that way. Now, Denise did have some mental health issues, which might have contributed to this instability. So after about a year and a half in prison, Ballard was granted parole again, with a release date scheduled for April. So Denise then realized she could no longer keep her engagement to Brian a secret. So she did write a letter to Ballard telling him about it. The letter must have come as a real shock to him. And he was enraged with feelings of betrayal afterwards.

In her letter, Ballard felt like Denise had been trying to present her engagement to Brian as if it was something that had just come up within the last week or so. She wrote about it like it surprised her as much as it did him, but he could tell that she'd been hiding her relationship with Brian from him for months. Now, even though he was incarcerated, Ballard still considered Denise to be his wife. He felt like her house was his home and couldn't believe that he had been tossed out like he had. Up until he got Denise's letter, serving his prison time had become manageable only because he thought he had a family waiting for him. Well, it seems like he may have benefited from some kind of psychiatric treatment while in the prison. And I don't know if it was offered and he refused it or what was going on there. But certainly not a stable guy from any perspective. No. So before the letter, Ballard and Denise had arranged for Denise to pick him up from prison on the day of his release. She was going to drive a friend's car since he was still not supposed to be seeing her. But Ballard notified the prison that the car no longer had permission to pick him up because he was angry with her.

And he ended all contact with Denise, refusing to respond to her letters or make any more calls to her. And maybe that was her chance to have a clean break. I'm not sure. So this I really don't understand. I'm trying to wrap around it. If she's decided to be with Brian and...

Ballard's ignoring her. That's a good thing, you would think. She should be happy about that. Obviously, there were still some feelings. There's something going on there. When the day of his release did arrive, Denise's friends Marilyn and Nicole drove her to the bus stop. And as Ballard's bus approached, Denise stepped outside of their van while her friends waited inside. She saw Ballard exit the bus. And as soon as he saw Denise, he turned and walked away. Marilyn and Nicole waited and watched as Denise went and spoke to this angry guy for about 45 minutes before he did agree to get in the van so they could drive him to the Allentown Community Correction Center. That's a halfway house where he would be staying.

So why she was so insistent on doing this, I don't understand at all. I don't either. She had an out. It feels like she did. Now, within a day of Ballard's release, Denise once again broke off her engagement with Brian to be with Michael Ballard. Ballard was still restricted from seeing Denise by forensic treatment services, but they continued their relationship in secret. Very few people knew that they were back together, according to her friend Marilyn, not even Denise's kids. Ballard wanted to adopt Denise's kids, move with her to Arkansas, have a baby of their own, and live as a family. So when Denise did something, she threw herself into it wholeheartedly.

And at this point, she believed that Ballard was her one true love. But once again, this relationship would not last. For one thing, it was difficult for Ballard and Denise to hide their relationship from their families and from the law. Ballard could only sign out of his halfway house for two hours a day, so they had very limited amount of time together before having to separate again. And there were also the sexual assault allegations, which still did make Denise a bit uncomfortable with him. Well, not enough that she stopped seeing him. I know. I would think any amount of not being comfortable about this, especially with two children in your house, should be enough not to see him. But I also don't want to victim blame.

Denise insisted she believed Ballard was innocent, even though some of her friends and family members didn't. So these accusations were hanging over them like a dark cloud, and definitely having some kind of effect on the relationship. So Ballard never did get over his jealousy over Denise getting engaged while he was back in prison. His trust in Denise had been shaken, and they were fighting more often. There was no real trust between the two of them. Ballard became more suspicious about what she was doing all the time, and the more he questioned her, the more defensive she became. All these problems built up until Denise could no longer stay in the relationship. Now Denise broke up with Ballard, and then entered a phase in her life where she had affairs and hookups with several men.

none of which were meaningful or long-lasting. She had a history of bipolar disorder and could be promiscuous when she was in a manic phase. Ballard was convinced that Denise was going out to clubs or having sex with strangers every night. Denise barely even drank when they first started dating, but now Ballard believes she's out drinking and smoking marijuana most nights. Okay, but it's really none of his business at this point, so why is he even thinking about it? Unless there was still some talking going on between the two, which wouldn't totally surprise me. There might have been. So on June 25th of 2010, Ballard called Denise's friend Marilyn's cell phone to talk about Denise. So he had started considering Marilyn a friend, and he had confided in her.

So the phone call itself was not so unusual. Marilyn was home when she received the call from the Allentown Community Correction Center. She ignored the call, but then he called a second time, and then a third. So Marilyn thought, oh, maybe it's important, and she answered. Ballard tried to do some small talking at first, asking how she was doing and asking about her kids. But it was obvious to her that he had called to talk about Denise. He said that Denise had stopped taking his calls. He called her repeatedly, but she wouldn't answer. Now, during this time period, though, Marilyn and Denise were in an argument and not really speaking much. But still, Marilyn knew that Denise had gone down to the New Jersey shore to celebrate her daughter's birthday. So Ballard told Marilyn that he felt betrayed. Denise had broken the trust he thought they'd shared together. He had stopped wearing the ring she gave him, too.

But Marilyn was startled by Ballard's tone because he was very quiet, solemn, and distraught. She hadn't heard him like that before. He started referring to pictures of Denise that he'd seen on her Facebook profile, which he'd seen on the computer at the halfway house. He was definitely angry about comments other men had made about Denise in those photos. The more he talked about that, the angrier he sounded. How could she do this to me? I thought we were meant to be together forever, Ballard said. She broke my heart. I don't know how I can get over this, and I cannot live without her. So Marilyn told Ballard that he needed to just let it go and find someone who was better for him. But he wasn't going to do that. He mentioned a photo he had seen of Denise at a Philadelphia Phillies game about three weeks before. Denise had gone to the game with Peter H., a 45-year-old man from Pennsburg, Pennsylvania, whom she'd met on the website plentyoffish.com.

While they had dated in the past, the 30-mile distance had made their relationship difficult, and they'd broken it off, but still they would get together for a date once in a while. So Ballard said to Marilyn, I see she had a good time at the Phillies game with her mom. And Marilyn, without thinking, said she didn't go with her mom. Now she realized her mistake right away, but Ballard demanded to know who Denise had gone to the game with. He'd actually tricked Marilyn because he had to have known that Denise had not gone to the game with her mom, but with a man. He convinced Marilyn to have coffee with him the following morning so that they could talk. So they made plans for Marilyn to pick up Ballard at the halfway house at around 11 o'clock the next morning, which was a Saturday. But then in the morning, Marilyn didn't feel comfortable about this meeting. She had second thoughts. And one of her friends urged her not to go. She said it's a bad idea. The friend insisted that she would only get depressed and that they should do something else that day. So Marilyn decided her friend was right. Ballard called her five times that day, but she missed the calls because her daughter had her phone.

He finally did reach Marilyn and she told him she would not be able to meet him after all. So I'm sure that kind of set him off as well. Probably. That day, the afternoon of Saturday, June 26th, a four-door gold sedan was speeding and swerving all over the road, and Pennsylvania State Police Corporal Mark Rollins could see that it was about to crash. Rollins was off-duty, wearing a t-shirt, shorts, and flip-flops. He was on his way home in his unmarked police car, driving toward Northampton, a small working-class borough near Northampton County, Pennsylvania. He was approaching a traffic light. When he saw the Pontiac Grand Prix GT speeding toward him, Rollins immediately suspected a drunk driver, and just as it approached the intersection, the car cut across the opposite lane, not quite close enough to hit Rollins. Rollins pulled his own car over to the side of the road.

Yeah, so when Rollins looked inside the car, he saw a man slumped over with his lower torso on the driver's side and his upper body lying across the passenger seat. There were no other passengers in the car. The man seemed to be unconscious, and Rollins could hear his slow, shallow breathing. Rollins called out to the man and got no response. And as he looked closer, he saw that the man was covered in blood.

Both the driver's and front passenger's seats were absolutely drenched in blood. After about two minutes, the injured man started to stir and appeared to regain consciousness. Rollins started asking the driver questions to test his memory and cognitive abilities, hoping to keep him conscious. What's your name, he asked. Michael, the man said slowly. Where are you coming from, Michael? Michael Ballard looked up at Rollins and then he said, I just killed everyone. So Rollins kind of got a shock. He said, well, what do you mean by that? And Michael replied, it's obvious. I just killed everyone.

So an ambulance arrived at the scene of this crash, and emergency responders were met with a really stunned Corporal Mark Rollins speaking to a dazed, bloody Michael Ballard. Rollins, still confused by the driver's shocking confession, let the EMTs look him over. Ballard had lost a lot of blood. He was conscious, but not easily responsive. And after a few moments, Ballard was more alert. When asked if he was in pain, he said, it doesn't matter because I killed them all. So this was a chilling statement for the EMTs to hear. They didn't know if he was just out of his mind or what, because he was pretty likely drunk. Yeah, actually, as the EMTs treated him, Michael suddenly stepped two of his fingers into his mouth.

and down his throat to gag himself until he vomited. Afterward, he looked up at the two EMTs and said, way too drunk, need to get the alcohol out, and then he passed out. He was in and out of consciousness as he was taken to the ambulance. The medical emergency responders could see he was wearing jeans and work boots, both soaked in blood. He also had an empty knife sheath on his belt. So it looked like his injuries were not caused by just the car crash, though. He had a large gash on his right thigh, and that seemed to be the source of some of the blood. The tip of his left ring finger was missing and looked like it could have been sliced off. So Ballard was bleeding profusely, and it was clear to the two emergency responders that he was near death.

After a few minutes, a helicopter arrived and a medevac unit came out to prepare for an airlift transfer to St. Luke's Hospital just outside of Bethlehem. The medevac crew sedated Ballard and inserted a trach tube to secure his airway, and they had to assist with breathing. Meanwhile, the police did run the license plate number of the 2004 Pontiac Grand Prix that he had been driving and found out that it was registered to Denise Merhi. She lived at 1917 Lincoln Avenue in the borough of Northampton. Very close by. It didn't take long for first responders and crime scene professionals to identify the three stabbing victims inside 1917 Lincoln Avenue.

The woman found dead in the kitchen was Denise Mary, the owner of the house, 39-year-old, divorced mother of two. The police were still trying to locate her children, a 13-year-old boy named Tristan and a 10-year-old girl named Annika. The deceased elderly man was Alvin Marsh Jr., Denise's 87-year-old grandfather, who had been living with Denise and her father, 62-year-old Dennis Marsh. Dennis was not there, and his whereabouts were unknown. Well, I think a big concern at that point were these children. Oh, yeah. Because it looked like whoever had done this just killed anyone in his sight. Why would you kill a man in his 80s? There's just no reason for it. But there was a dead man in the living room just inside the front door, and that was Steven Zurnhelt.

That was Denise's 53-year-old neighbor from 1915 Lincoln Avenue, which was the other half of the duplex home. Stephen was the husband of Janet Zurnhill, the woman who had confronted police officer York when he arrived on the scene. After York reported what he had found at 1917 Lincoln Avenue, and then more police officers and emergency officials arrived, they began to talk to the witnesses. So one of the first people the police spoke with was Debbie Hawkey, the wife of Denise's cousin and one of her closest friends. She was also the first person to find Denise's body, and after they listened to her story, it became clear to the police.

that she could have very easily ended up as one of these murder victims herself. Debbie and her two sons, ages three and five, had just spent the last three days with Denise and her daughter Annika at the beach in Seaside Heights, New Jersey. They'd gone there to celebrate Annika's birthday. She'd turned 10 on Wednesday, June 23rd. The five of them arrived back home on Friday. Debbie and Denise had exchanged text messages earlier that day, she told the police. Denise said she would leave the keys to Debbie's van in her mailbox. Debbie's husband dropped her off in front of Denise's house to pick up her van from Denise. When she opened the mailbox, though, the keys weren't inside. So Debbie had gone up to Denise's front door.

And when no one answered, she turned the doorknob and stepped inside. The door was unlocked, but that wasn't unusual for Denise during the day to leave it unlocked. Debbie often came and went without knocking. Hello, she called out as she answered. Hello, is anyone here? And Debbie walked through the living room into the dining room and saw her keys sitting on the table there. As she picked them up, she heard noises in the kitchen as if someone was cooking something. So Debbie stepped into the kitchen, where to her shock and I can only imagine absolute horror, she found her friend Denise dead, sprawled out on the floor in a pool of blood. Debbie didn't see anybody else right then, but she did hear some rustling coming from somewhere inside the house.

So terrified, she ran back through the dining and living rooms and out the front door, hoping to find her husband still waiting out front. So what she's experienced here is like a horror movie scene, isn't it? Sure is. Yeah. But her husband wasn't there. He'd moved his car further down the block and he couldn't see Debbie. So freaked out from what she'd just seen, she thought of calling 911 herself. But then she realized that she'd left her cell phone in her purse and she left her purse inside Denise's house. So she raced back up the porch and entered the house again, running into the dining room. That's a brave thing to do. It is brave, isn't it? Because she's pretty sure someone's in there. Yeah. But she was able to grab her purse.

But when she did this, she heard noises from the kitchen again. And glancing into the room this time, she saw a large shadow on the wall. And she knew it was a man. So now she was terrified. And she ran out of the house again, desperate to find someone to call 911. So in a panic, she ran to the porch on the other side of the duplex and started pounding on the neighbor's door. Steve Zirnhalt answered. And after Debbie told him somebody was hurt, he ran to Denise's house to help. And that simple act of kindness cost him his life. Yeah, it was a brave thing to do, really. Although I don't think he had a full idea of what had happened there. He couldn't have. No. No. So after speaking with Debbie, the police spoke to Emily Germani.

who was a 14-year-old girl living just north of Denise's home. She told the police what would prove to be an invaluable piece of information. She'd seen the man who had probably committed the murders. Emily had heard Debbie Hawkey and Janet Zernhout screaming, and it sounded like Janet was shouting that her husband was killed. Then when Emily came outside, she saw a shirtless man come out through Denise's front door onto the porch. It was covered in blood, and was trying to get blood off one of his hands by flicking it toward the ground.

You know there's a lot of blood if you can flick it off your hand and wrist like that. This poor girl, can you imagine? Terrifying. And right after she spotted him, the man looked right back at her and made a surprised expression. Oh my god, I'd be so scared. Then she told the police he immediately turned back into the house. A little later, Emily saw Denise's car, a gold Pontiac Grand Prix GT, racing away. So I'm a little surprised Emily herself didn't go in the house and call the police. Yeah, well... I don't know, she's 14. 14 and just got the shock of her life. Yeah, she probably didn't know exactly what was going on. She's probably confused by the whole thing.

The police put out a radio report for other surrounding police departments to keep an eye out for the vehicle. Emily said that she had recognized the man as Denise's boyfriend, or at least the man she had dated in the past, and his name was Michael Ballard. Yeah, so that girl was very helpful. Janet Zurnhill was still in a state of shock when police talked to her. Although she had been hysterical when Officer York first arrived, she was a bit calmer now. Neighbors had taken her back into her house and tried to comfort her. And once she had regained her composure, she was ready to recall for the police her traumatic memories of her husband's murder. Janet told the police she and Steve had been married for 34 years. They had been just one month away from celebrating their 35th anniversary. These two had met back in high school when they both worked at a fast food restaurant and had quickly become high school sweethearts. So this was a huge loss for her. This was her life partner. Now Steve had most recently been working as a technical service advisor for U.S. Supply.

a construction supply company in a northern suburb of Philadelphia. Janet and Steve had lived at 1915 Lincoln Avenue for just under 30 years. They'd actually moved there one year before their oldest child was born, so all three of their kids had been raised there. And it was a nice neighborhood. They saw it as the kind of place where they could let their children play with the other kids across the street without worrying about their safety. Actually, most of the neighbors thought it was the kind of place where you could be safe and you really never even had to think about locking your door. So this Saturday, Janet and Steve were alone at home watching a movie. They'd been planning to take their boat up to Beltsville Lake, which was just under 20 miles north.

but instead they decided to stay in and relax together. And they were doing that when they heard a scream from next door, according to Janet. It was a loud scream and Janet had trouble describing it, except to say that it didn't sound like any kind of normal noise you would hear. Janet knew her neighbors, Denise and Dennis. Dennis was Denise's father. She didn't speak with them very often, but Janet had known the family even before she moved into that house because she'd actually gone to high school with Denise's aunt. In the past, Janet had heard Denise scream after her grandfather, Alvin, had fallen in the yard and they thought maybe something like that had happened again. So Steve went to the next door porch and knocked on the front door to see if everything was all right.

But when nobody answered, he walked to the other side of the house to see if anyone was on the porch out back. There was nobody there either, even though both Denise's and Dennis's cars were parked nearby. But Steve didn't hear or see anything unusual when he was over there. So he went back to his wife and they continued watching their movie. But then it was just a few minutes later when they heard screaming again. And then a woman was pounding on their front door. When they opened it, they saw Debbie Hawkey standing in the doorway, shaking, terrified, and holding a cell phone in her hand. Call 911, she screamed. Call 911. So I think she was just too upset to even make the call, but it seems like. Yeah. Which, God, can you blame her?

Not only did she see her friend murdered on the floor, but she saw in shadow of the guy who probably did it, she's probably afraid he's going to run over and grab her at any second. Oh, absolutely. She's right on the other side of the duplex. It's not like she's far away. So Janet grabbed a home phone near the door and called 911. Without hesitation, Steve rushed past Debbie and jumped over the small brick wall that separated the two porches, then rushed through Denise's front door. He went so quickly that he didn't even bother to put on his shoes. Steve, you don't have your shoes on, Janet called to him. That was the last thing she would ever say to her husband. It's really sad for that couple. So Janet grabbed a home phone near the door and called 911.

Debbie, who was still in a panic, rushed past her into Janet's kitchen, but Janet was too distracted and frightened to notice. She told the 911 dispatcher there was a disturbance and repeatedly asked them to send someone to their address. Janet could hear the noises next door. She couldn't make out any words, but she heard a fight of some sort. At one point, she looked out her front door at Denise's porch and saw someone, but she couldn't make out who it was. So Janet waited a few minutes, but the police hadn't arrived. She knew something was wrong, and she could not leave Steve alone there any longer. So she rushed out of her house and over to Denise's door. She went in.

And so her husband lying in a pool of blood. Yeah, so Janet said she immediately knew that Steve was dead. There was just so much blood. And at first, she just couldn't react. She was in shock. Her body had gone completely numb. She couldn't do anything but stand there and stare at the body of her husband. I saw him, she later said. I didn't know how he could have been alive. He bled all over. All I saw was his face and pools of blood. So after Michael Ballard was picked up after he crashed into the tree, he was rushed to St. Luke's Hospital, one of the two trauma centers in the Lehigh Valley area and the closest to where he had crashed Denise's car.

EMTs pushed Ballard into the hospital on a stretcher, his bloodied clothes partially removed and pushed over to the side. The chief resident of the hospital's emergency medicine residency program was on duty in the surgical intensive care unit when Ballard arrived just before 6 p.m. So he knew very little about the car crash itself and nothing about the horror scene on Lincoln Avenue. Ballard was covered in blood from the deep severe cut on his right thigh. Ballard had been in and out of consciousness during the flight, and even now he was suffering from decreased levels of consciousness. Ballard's blood pressure was dangerously low, and his blood loss was life-threatening. County Coroner Zachary Lysak arrived at 1917 Lincoln Avenue after stopping at the crash scene on Route 329 because he was notified that it was designated as a secondary crime scene. So Lysak's job was to document the scene, identify any evidence, assist in the collection of that evidence, and document any injuries to the bodies. Lysak was concerned for the safety of Denise Mary's children.

Yeah, I think that had to be a big thought for everyone at that point. Yeah, we don't know where they are. No. He was directed to search the house and ensure that they were not somewhere inside. Which they very well could have been. Sure could have been. Yeah. And judging by the violent way the three victims had died, the coroner believed that whoever committed the murders would not have hesitated to kill the kids. Oh no, I don't think so.

So Lysak began the search along with Trooper Raymond Judge, members of the State Police Records and Identification Unit, and one other member of Lysak's own office. So they made their way to the home's basement, which was accessible from a doorway in the kitchen, just across from where Denise's body lay on the floor. Unlike the floors upstairs, none of the basement steps had any bloodstains. So the downstairs opened into a partially finished basement apartment with multiple small rooms, each with a dropped ceiling. Lysak walked into a small living area with a couch, an armchair, and a widescreen TV. A pair of legs was visible on the brown carpeted floor, and the legs belonged to an adult, not a child.

A white quilt with a pattern of fuchsia stars had been draped over the person, and his legs were sticking out one end of the quilt. On the other side of the quilt, the man's right arm reached outward from beneath the quilt. His left hand also poked out from under the quilt, resting in a large blood stain that was drying on the carpet. So they discovered a fourth murder victim. Yeah, so the authorities would identify him as Dennis Marsh, Denise's 62-year-old father, a parts clerk and truck manufacturer who lived in the basement apartment of Denise's home. Like the other bodies, Dennis had been stabbed multiple times.

The pattern from the bloodstains was consistent with arterial spurting, and all the signs indicated that there had been a struggle before he died. Dennis's white t-shirt was completely soaked in blood. Around his neck, he wore a silver necklace with a medical alert tag indicating that he had a medical history of diabetes. A gold wristwatch was on Dennis's left wrist, and through the blood, Lysick saw several tattoos on Dennis, including one of Mickey Mouse on his left arm, one of the singer Jim Morrison on his left calf, and a multicolored butterfly on his right upper back. So looking up from the body, Lysick saw a message had been written in blood on the white wall. It read, Denise is a whore.

He walked closer to this eerie message, which seemed to have been traced on the wall using a sharp object, possibly even the knife that had been used to kill victims. The letters were only a few inches tall, written in all capital letters, next to a framed painting of an ocean scene. Then Lysak made another discovery, a light blue t-shirt with a Superman logo resting on the arm of the chair. The shirt was folded neatly and seemed to have been deliberately placed there. There were bloodstains underneath the red S and the shield logo, so Lysak wondered if the killer had deliberately placed the t-shirt there after committing the murder. So after completing a thorough search of the rest of the house,

They did conclude that there was nobody else inside the house, living or dead. Lysak called the DA to inform him about the fourth victim, and that was news that shocked and angered the district attorney. He said he couldn't believe that law enforcement hadn't found the body for more than half an hour after getting that first 911 call about the murders. But Lysak was less concerned about that. He knew the police wanted to make sure all the evidence was preserved, and the best way to do that was to quickly secure the crime scene and make sure the house was cleared so nobody would disturb the evidence. And since a quilt concealed that fourth body, he thought it was understandable that it would have been initially overlooked. And none of the evidence had been compromised, so that was a good thing. The police were dealing now with a quadruple homicide, the first that District Attorney Morgan Alley or Lysak could recall in their careers in Northampton County. And the police later learned that Denise's son Tristan and her daughter Annika were alive and well in the days before the murders.

Denise had taken the kids down to the Jersey Shore to celebrate Annika's birthday. Morganelli said that Denise's mother, Geraldine Dorwart, was still at the shore with the children when Denise was killed. Well, that was fortunate. Or the three of them would probably have been murdered, too. No question. So obviously that was a huge relief. They knew that if Geraldine and the kids had been home, they could have just as easily been murdered. Well, yeah, it seems like it was done in some kind of crazy rage. Yes. Yeah. And Geraldine had long been divorced from Dennis by the time of the killings. The 55-year-old lived with her sister, less than three miles away from her daughter and grandchildren. But while Geraldine had escaped physical injury...

Her emotional pain was immense. Denise was her only child. They had a very close relationship. Oh yeah, just a huge, huge, huge loss for her. And of course, for those children. They've lost their mother, their grandfather, and their great-grandfather. So in recent years, Denise had taken on a caretaker role with her mother. Denise would help Geraldine with things she needed to get done. She helped her complete her important paperwork. And Geraldine sometimes referred to her daughter as her personal secretary and medical advisor. Geraldine had been training to start a new career path as a certified nursing assistant. And Denise had been extremely helpful. Denise would have turned 40 the following May.

and already Geraldine had been planning a big surprise party for her daughter. Denise had really gone all out for Geraldine's 40th and 50th birthdays, and she'd wanted to return the gesture to her only child. Now, even though they had been divorced for years, Dennis Marsh was still a big part of his ex-wife's life, too. With Denise and their grandchildren in common, Dennis and Geraldine attended some of the same family dinners and holiday celebrations. Geraldine even took care of Dennis' mother before she died. Geraldine knew that her ex-husband was a caring grandfather. Their shared housing had allowed him to be involved in their day-to-day lives, including taking Annika to school every day and regular trips with both grandchildren to the library and the public pool. Dennis and Tristan had also shared a love of cars, and together they'd been restoring a 1967 Chevy. Elvin Marsh, Geraldine's ex-father-in-law, had also remained part of her life. In fact, she never thought of him as a father-in-law.

He had been more like a father to her than her own father, and she had called him Poppy. The police did a criminal background check on Michael Ballard, the man who had stolen Denise's car, and told emergency officials that he'd just killed everyone. They learned that he had previously been convicted for killing a man in 1991. When he was only 18 years old, Ballard had stabbed a man to death in an apartment in Allentown, Pennsylvania, then stolen the victim's car and attempted to flee to Arkansas. Ballard had pleaded guilty and been sentenced to 15 to 30 years in prison for the 1991 murder, but was released in 2006 after serving the minimum.

Inmates there are allowed to be released for limited periods of time for purposes related to work, education, or treatment. Ballard had been released earlier in the day, but a warrant had since been issued for his arrest. Ballard had been due back at 2 o'clock, which was less than three hours before Denise, Mary, and the others were killed. Right. So by 9.40 p.m., that's about five hours after Ballard's car crash, he was recovered enough to breathe on his own, so that many could speak. But his doctor wasn't ready to let the police ask him any questions until he questioned Ballard himself and was able to determine his level of consciousness. So he checked Ballard's eye movement, motor skills, and verbalization. Ballard answered all the questions correctly, and he was given a score of 14 on the Glasgow Coma Scale.

the highest possible score. Oh, that's a good score. The Glasgow's coma scale, the lower it is, the worse prognosis. Right. So if he had scored a two or three, you're not going to be speaking with him. No, no. So 14 is pretty good. 14 should be a go. Yeah. But he wasn't all that cooperative. We're going to find out. No, it might be that he was capable of answering questions, but he wasn't willing to. Right. The willingness was the issue. He said he was ready to be interviewed by police and the doctor agreed. Two troopers introduced themselves to him. But as soon as they started asking questions about Denise, Ballard closed his eyes and would not respond.

One trooper stayed in the room and watched him as he slept after that. A blood alcohol content test was done that evening, and it came back at 0.113. So that's over the legal limit for drunk driving in Pennsylvania. That level is 0.08, and the test was done more than six hours after the murders. So his blood alcohol content would have had to have been much higher at the time. But after the test was done, Ballard just fell back asleep. He did wake up just after midnight and looked directly at the trooper at his bedside. This was Trooper Johnson. What's your story, dickhead, he asked.

So Johnson identified himself, and as he started to tell Ballard that he'd like to talk to him about the events from earlier that day, Ballard again closed his eyes, pretending to be asleep. So it was starting to look unlikely that he would cooperate with the authorities. We know that Ballard had violated his parole by leaving the Allentown Community Corrections Center, so getting a detainer would allow them to hold Ballard until homicide charges could be brought against him. Despite everything they'd learned about Ballard from the police, the medical staff still knew very little about the car crash that had brought him into the hospital, and the doctor needed to learn as many details as he could so they could provide the right treatment. Ballard had been uncooperative with the police so far, but he did seem more willing to talk to his physician. This was Dr. Costello. They spoke for a few minutes about his injuries, and the doctor asked about how Ballard had gotten certain wounds.

and eventually asked how he had gotten that deep puncture wound on his leg. Well, I was stabbing some dude and the knife slipped down and cut my knee. Now, he said this in a very cold, casual tone. Dr. Costello was really taken aback, and the conversation ended there. Trooper Johnson, who was standing in the doorway listening, had overheard Ballard's statement, and he was immediately alert. After Dr. Costello left the room a few minutes later, Johnson asked him to provide a written statement about Ballard's startling confession made to him. Around 1 a.m., troopers again tried to interview Ballard. He did not close his eyes or pretend to sleep this time.

And they informed him that they wanted to speak with him about a homicide investigation. And they did read him his Miranda rights. But they had no more success than before. Ballard exercised his right to remain silent. He said he would not answer any questions without an attorney. Then he slept for a few more hours. Dr. Costello returned at 530 in the morning to reassess his condition.

Once again, the doctor had not been asked to question Ballard on behalf of authorities, but the police had continued to keep a trooper standing just outside the doorway to take note of anything he might say to the physician. So with a nurse present, Dr. Costello examined Ballard and started asking questions, including whether Ballard knew why he was in the hospital. Ballard's response was just as shocking as it had been a few hours earlier. He said, because I murdered my girlfriend and her family and then the neighbor who came over later. I was in the process of stabbing them when the knife slipped and stabbed my knee. So Dr. Costello repeated Ballard's statement back to him and Ballard nodded to confirm it.

The trooper outside the door had trouble hearing Ballard this time, but he could clearly hear Costello as he repeated this information back to Ballard. Costello asked a few more questions, and Ballard seemed able to articulate how he had sustained his injuries. Because he had a fingertip missing to it, didn't he? He did, yeah. He must have been in a frenzy. Oh my god, he had to have been. So Costello and the nurse who'd been there with him both made written statements to the police about these confessions. And so by the end of the day of the quadruple murder, the police had already prepared a request for a warrant to search Denise Mary's house. The judge that night was Jacqueline Tashner, a former Northampton County assistant DA.

whose courtroom was in Palmer Township, which was about a 30-minute drive from the borough of Northampton. Tashner, who had prosecuted many grisly crimes during her time as a prosecutor, wasted no time in signing a search warrant. It was in the police officer's hands by 9.20 that night. The police had gathered 63 pieces of evidence in a process that took two days to complete. Among the items seized were several knives, including two with broken tips. A small green duffel bag Ballard had been seen carrying on the day of the murders. The troopers also found a piece of human tissue, believed to be part of one of Ballard's fingertips. Oh, they found it. Yeah. The two broken-tipped knives and a third knife were all recovered in the living room.

which was the same place where Stephen Zirnhel's body had been found. Police also took at least three laptop computers from the home. Among Ballard's belongings, the police found a parole notice, a knife sheath, two silver rings, and a silver necklace. Huh, so that's interesting. He must have taken some of her jewelry. Must have. So state police had seized the car, Ballard had crashed, but they did not get permission to search it until three days later. So on June 29th, they catalogued dozens more pieces of evidence recovered from the car, including two more knives. Jeez, what's with all the knives? Yeah, it must be a knife guy.

At least one of the knives recovered was stamped with the brand Chicago Cutlery. Denise had owned an entire block of knives by the same company. Yeah, so he must have just grabbed that one during the frenzy. Yeah. But there was another piece of evidence that the state police were hoping to connect to the home. Ballard had been found with one of Dennis Marsh's checks in his pockets. So the police believed that Ballard had found the checkbook in Dennis's room and then ripped out the check after he killed Dennis. Police later returned to the house to get both Denise's knife block and Dennis's checkbook. So the police planned to speak with Marilyn Rivera. Remember, she's a good friend of Denise. Yes. They spoke with her on the morning of June 27th.

So it had been just under 24 hours since Denise and the others were killed, and during the investigation, they had learned that Marilyn Rivera was one of Denise's closest friends. They had also learned that Marilyn had spoken to Michael Ballard just hours before the murders. Yeah, this is the whole thing about him wanting to talk with her. Yes. So a detective met Marilyn at Denise's home, which was still roped off with yellow police tape.

So they couldn't go inside the house. So they sat on the patio out back where they were out of sight from any passing reporters or looky-loos observers. This interview was an important part of helping law enforcement understand what had happened between Denise and Michael Ballard. Because, you know, Marilyn had the full scoop of the relationship pretty much. So Marilyn explained that she had met Denise about six years ago, right around the time she moved to Allentown. Her family lived in New Jersey, so she knew very few people in the city and had no close friends. She had three children who were 16, 6, and 5 at the time. And...

One summer day, she took her children to Wildwater Kingdom, which is an amusement park just a few miles outside of Allentown. So it was a fun afternoon for the family. That is, until Marilyn turned around for a moment and realized with horror that she had completely lost sight of her six-year-old daughter. We've all been there at some point, right? Oh, yeah. The worst feeling ever. Oh, my God. Terrifying. But that's when a stranger came up behind Marilyn and tapped her on the shoulder. And this was Denise. And she explained that little Julia had wandered onto a ride in the Camp Snoopy attraction, along with her daughter, Annika.

So they exchanged numbers and quickly became very good friends. Their kids were close to the same age, and soon they were doing just about everything together. They played soccer, went to dances, had sleepovers, and went for visits to the beach and the zoo. Marilyn and Denise themselves were just inseparable. Marilyn saw Denise as a sister. She described Denise as a friendly, bubbly woman who loved everybody. But she also admitted that Denise had a very strong, domineering personality. And Denise often didn't care what others said or thought about her. Marilyn's own personality differed from Denise's in that way, but that didn't change how much she liked her. Now, it was not just happy times between the two.

Denise was going through a difficult period when she met Marilyn, having recently separated from her husband, a man who, Denise told Marilyn, liked to play head games with her. So at one point, Denise suspected that he had been cheating on her. And Denise took the kids and left Puerto Rico, where she lived with her husband, to start over, start a new life. But she had trouble coping with life away from him, especially as she struggled with her bipolar disorder. So sometimes, she said, Denise would cry to Marilyn for hours. Marilyn tried to convince Denise to start taking her bipolar medication again, which she had given up on. But Denise refused to do that. Still, Marilyn had stayed her friend and was a good listener when Denise needed someone to talk to.

so she'd heard a lot about their relationship with Michael Ballard. Marilyn first met Michael Ballard in the summer of 2007. Denise had recently broken off her engagement to Brian Miller so that she could start dating Ballard, although she never told her about what he did or how they'd met. That summer, Marilyn hosted a birthday party for one of her sons at her Allentown home, and Denise asked if she could bring Ballard along as her date. When he arrived, Ballard stood out among the children and their parents. His sleeves were rolled up, showing some rough tattoos on his arms, and he sat quietly at the table during the party, barely speaking to anyone. He made the other guests feel uncomfortable.

Although once the party was over, he helped clean up and politely thanked Marilyn for having him over. Over time, Marilyn did begin to warm to him. They had spent time together on several occasions before Denise finally told her the truth about Ballard's past. He had recently finished serving time in prison for murder. Denise had met him the previous March when he was released on parole after 15 years in prison. Yeah, so when he'd been released, Ballard had $177 on him and no possessions but the clothes he was wearing. He started looking for work and even attempted to join a union. After months of doing temp work and other low-paying jobs, Ballard was offered a job at the concrete plant.

So it was through this job that he met Denise, who was working as a medical assistant at the doctor's office, where Ballard had to go for his physical exam. Since the doctor performing the exam was a woman, Denise had to be present for the entire physical. And the two kept glancing at each other throughout the appointment. Eventually, the doctor left the room for a moment and the two were alone together. And by the time Ballard had left the office, he had told Denise all about his life and his past, including the murder he had gone to prison for. Denise was immediately attracted to him. He probably gave her that bad boy vibe, a sense of living on the edge that she had always been drawn to, according to Marilyn. But this is a really strange way to meet.

A little different. And just to give someone who came in for an appointment your phone number, it's a little weird. But Ballard gave Denise his number, and by the time he got back to the halfway house where he was staying, she had already called him. So from then on, they secretly saw each other every day. At that time, Denise was engaged to Brian Miller, remember? A 37-year-old information technology technician who she'd met through the dating website Match.com. So they had dated exclusively for almost two years, and they seemed happy together. The couple had even built an addition onto Denise's house so that Brian and his two sons could stay there on the weekends.

So Brian, unlike many of Denise's past boyfriends, seemed like a good, decent man. But Denise, unfortunately, was not always attracted to the best men. So a short time after the interview with Marilyn ended, the state police were issued an arrest warrant for Michael Ballard on four counts of homicide and four counts of murder in the first degree. By also charging him with a general term of homicide, a future jury could convict Ballard of a lesser murder charge if they didn't agree with first degree. So they felt like this was the safest way to do it. Yeah, although it seems like they could easily charge first degree and get a conviction. Yeah. But I know.

They're going to hedge. Well, they've charged for first degree, but also homicide. So that's something to fall back on, basically. So at 2.20 p.m. on June 27th, police went to St. Luke's Hospital to serve Ballard with a warrant. They also brought along two search warrants, one for the bandages and stretcher sheets used in Ballard's transport to the hospital, and the other allowing them to take photos of Ballard. Two troopers arrived at Ballard's hospital room and found him lying awake with his wrists handcuffed to the bed. They told him that he was under arrest, news that did not appear to come as any surprise to Ballard. Oh, I'm sure it didn't. Well, he's already confessed. Several times, really, if you think about it. Yeah.

But because he had invoked his right to counsel the night before, and the police could not officially question him without his attorney present, they needed to get an attorney for him if they wanted to discuss what happened. Ballard was still not fit to be released from the hospital, so a judge was brought into St. Luke's to arraign him at his bedside. DA Morganelli announced that a press conference would be held later that afternoon, where information about the homicides and the arrests would be released to the public. Details about the crime had been really scant in the news so far. Since the murders had happened on a Saturday, representatives from the police and DA's office were less available to speak with reporters.

The stories that ran Sunday morning reported that a suspect had been taken into custody, but they had not identified him by name. So print reporters, photographers, and TV camera crews were all crammed into the meeting room, where three law enforcement officials sat at the head of the table. Lysick began the press conference by giving the names of the four victims and their causes of death. All four victims died from multiple stab wounds, he said, and the manner of death on all four cases is homicide. The DA identified the suspect as Ballard, and that would be a name that would become infamous in the Lehigh Valley region.

Based on what he'd witnessed at the crime scene and the subsequent investigation by police, the DA said it was clear that he was dealing with four cases of premeditated first-degree murder and that he would be seeking the death penalty. So they gave a partial picture of Ballard's connection to his victims, revealing that there was some type of relationship between Ballard and Denise. In the days that followed the quadruple homicide, Trooper Raymond Judge had the job of retracing Ballard's steps on the day of the killings. So Ballard had a job at an Allentown concrete company near the Community Correction Center. Judge interviewed one of Ballard's co-workers there, who said that on June 25th, the day before the killings, he had heard Ballard say over the phone, think about me, baby. So they thought he'd been talking to Denise at that point. He also interviewed Ballard's fellow residents at the Allentown Community Correction Center, and several of them said they'd overheard his phone calls. One claimed that Ballard had told him that Denise hadn't been calling him recently.

He said Ballard referred to Denise as his wife and referred to her kids as his children. During one phone conversation, a resident heard Ballard yelling into the phone, What are you saying? What's going on? Then the morning of the killings, Ballard stayed around the halfway house's telephones from 8.39am to 11.41am, constantly making calls or waiting for return calls. Several residents and staff members said they saw Ballard pacing up and down the hall, appearing to be anxious and upset. One of the residents claimed that Ballard told him he was waiting for a call from his girlfriend, with whom he was having problems.

Then another said he saw Ballard slam down the phone receiver several times. These accounts really offered a glimpse into Ballard's state of mind that morning. He had called Denise and Marilyn multiple times in the 24 hours leading up to the murders. And he had seemed to grow more and more restless and furious with each call. So I just have to wonder why this kind of behavior wouldn't be a red flag that he wouldn't be allowed to leave for the weekend or something, get some kind of support or help in there. Yeah, although it's tough to decide how over the top he was. Well, I don't know. I would think anyone in that situation who has committed a murder and is living in a halfway house, their behavior is probably important to monitor.

Well, maybe that's asking too much, but I could see that as being maybe helpful. Well, there's monitoring and there's monitoring. Exactly. So footage from the correction center surveillance cameras showed Ballard's activity on the morning of June 26th. That's the day of the murders. Little of it was alarming. But at one point, Ballard appeared to grow agitated when he tried to check out of the facility and a staff member refused to let him leave with his paycheck. But then just as quickly, he appeared to be calm. At 1148 a.m., Ballard checked out of the community correction center.

Signing out at the lobby, he was carrying a green backpack, wearing a pair of jeans, brown boots, a blue-green baseball cap, and a light blue short-sleeved t-shirt with a Superman emblem. Now remember, that matches the one found in Denise's father's basement. Yep. And it would help the police knowing that Ballard had worn that shirt. Absolutely. Not only was it obviously the same shirt they later found folded neatly on an armchair next to Dennis Marsh's dead body, but it made Ballard stand out to several witnesses who saw him in the hours before the killings. They had to go around saying, I saw this grown man with a Superman t-shirt. It's a little weird. Plus, his behavior was a little off, I'm sure.

By reviewing the city surveillance cameras, investigators found that he'd entered a pawn shop around noon, where he looked over the store's collection of samurai swords and decorative daggers, but didn't buy any. Next, he went to another pawn shop, where he pulled at least three knives out of the display case to look them over. Now, the person at the store said he'd been very deliberate about it, testing each knife for sharpness. And Ballard had eventually settled on a Ruko Mula brand knife. So with his pawn shop shopping completed, Ballard then headed to the local bus station, and he first stopped to make a call at a payphone outside of a 7-Eleven, about two blocks away from the pawn shop.

When investigators later checked the phone records, they found out that those calls were made to Marilyn, in addition to several he'd made to her earlier in the day from his halfway house. After he had hung up the payphone, Ballard bought a bus ticket from Allentown to Northampton Bureau. And that was the scene of the killings, of course. But as the detective learned from reviewing retail surveillance cameras, he didn't go straight to Denise's house. First, he stopped at Boxer's Bar and Grill and ordered a Long Island iced tea. So that's a drink well known for having a high alcohol content, but he drank it down in a matter of a couple minutes. Oh yeah, they taste good.

You know, they have like seven different liquors in it. Yeah, I don't know if they taste good, but they are potent. That they are. So Ballard left the bar and headed closer to Denise's neighborhood, but he didn't go directly there then either. He stopped and had another drink. So by now it would have been around 2 p.m. and more security footage from the neighboring store showed that he had gone to a liquor store and bought a two pint bottle of vodka. Ballard visited another bar where he drank another Long Island iced tea and his entire bottle of vodka mixed with Mountain Dew. He's still up and walking, huh? Yeah.

Now, he had consumed a lot of alcohol in a short amount of time, especially for a guy who really seldom drank otherwise, because he'd spent most of his life in prison and the past few months in a halfway house where you're not allowed to drink. Surveillance camera footage showed Ballard stopping in at a convenience store and a pharmacy up until 2.20 p.m., and that's when cameras lost track of him. A later check of phone records showed that Ballard called Denise's cell phone twice, and the calls lasted three and a half minutes and five minutes, so he did speak to her. Must have. On June 29th, Ballard was released from St. Luke's Hospital and taken directly to the Northampton County Prison, where he was arraigned over video.

Although he had already been arraigned in Lehigh County, it had to be done a second time after he was brought back to the county where the murders took place. So once the shock of the grisly quadruple murder had started to wear off, the media and members of the public began to ask the same question. How could it be that Michael Ballard, who had already committed a brutal murder more than 18 years earlier, how had he been a free man? As the local newspapers turned their attention to this question, the details about the circumstances of Ballard's parole began to emerge. Yeah, so this is interesting. As the conclusion of his 15-year minimum sentence approached, Ballard was first granted parole on September 18, 2006. And it's noticed to Ballard about his decision.

The board cited several factors that led to its ruling, including Ballard having expressed remorse for the crimes he committed, positive recommendation by the State Department of Corrections, by Ballard's completion of institutional programs, and a review of all his mental health reports and behavior evaluations. Staff members from both the Parole Board and the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections, as well as counselors and other employees of the prison, prepared a case file for the Parole Board to review. The case file included information about the inmate's crime, criminal history, emotional stability, history of family violence, prison misconduct records, and status of institutional program completion. The file also included testimony notes from the sentencing hearing. Two people who did not share the state's enthusiasm for Ballard's chances at rehabilitation were Gloria Sieber and Elaine Keim. These are the sisters of Donald Richard. After their brother was killed, members of the family swore they would do everything they could to ensure that Ballard never got out of prison again. When the time came for his parole hearing, Gloria and Elaine wanted to address the board directly, but were denied because of the amount of confidential information about Ballard that would be discussed at the hearing. So instead they wrote a letter to the board encouraging them to deny Ballard parole.

Ballard pleaded guilty to murder, admitting that on June 26, 2010, he went to Denise's home in Northampton and stabbed her, her father, her grandfather, and her neighbor. In court, DA Morganelli gave his reasons for aggravating circumstances and why he was seeking the death penalty. He said that one aggravating circumstance was the 1991 murder that Ballard had committed. Also, Morganelli alleged that Ballard told a cellmate that he had killed Denise because he was jealous that his ex-girlfriend was seeing other people. Ballard also allegedly told the other inmate he killed the other three victims so that there would be no witnesses to the homicide. So the death penalty trial began in May.

and the courtroom was filled with more than 50 family members and friends of the four victims. D.A. Morganelli began the proceedings with his opening statement, where he really emphasized the methodical and businesslike way that Ballard murdered Denise, in retaliation for spending time with other men, then killed three others just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. He tried to discourage the jury from showing any mercy toward Michael Ballard because he had already failed when given a second and a third chance, both times when he was released on parole. He also reminded them that Ballard had killed not only these four victims, but he'd also killed Donald Richard back in 1991. Not one, not two, not three.

Not four, but five, he said. This case is about the deaths of five innocent people. And he pointed out that Denise's two young children could easily have been killed as well if they'd just been at home that day. He said they could have been numbers six and seven. Now, during the defense's opening statement, they tried their best to humanize Michael Ballard. His attorney said that Ballard loved Denise and was just so devastated upon learning that she was spending time with other men that he couldn't take it. He explained that the two had spoken about getting married and having children and that they had even exchanged rings during a secret ceremony.

So it's interesting that Denise's mother, Geraldine, rushed out of the courthouse as the defense attorney spoke, saying that she felt nauseous. When asked later by reporters, she explained that it was the talk of exchanging rings that had really set her off, because she'd had no idea that they'd done that. Now, later that day, the jury had also heard testimony from Northampton County Coroner Zachary Lysick, forensic pathologist Samuel Land, and Denise's cousin Debbie Hawkey. Debbie described how she walked into the house in the middle of the killings, and how she saw the shadow of someone she believed to be Michael Ballard just before she ran out of the house. It had never been publicly revealed how close Debbie had been to becoming a fifth victim herself.

I'll bet. Yeah. So after the defense rested, the 12 jurors were led into the conference room where they deliberated. After a brief discussion, it became clear that everybody was clear on the law. To arrive at a death penalty decision, the jury had to agree that the prosecution had established at least one of the two aggravating factors, that he had committed another murder in the past, or that his crime involved multiple victims. Now, the answer there is pretty obvious. Yeah, it's just factual, really. But the jury was required to vote on each of the four victims individually, and they decided to start with Denise. All right, all those in favor of the death penalty, raise your hands, the foreman asked. And 12 hands immediately rose up in the air.

Once the vote was finished for Denise, they held another for Dennis Marsh, then for Elvin Marsh Jr., and then for Steve Zirnhelp. And for each, the vote was the same, 12 jurors in favor of the death penalty. Just two hours after they'd been escorted out of the courtroom, the jury was ready to give its verdict. People who were there for the trial were shocked at how quickly it had gone, having been warned that the deliberations in a death penalty case could really last for days. But what they didn't know was that the deliberations only took about 45 minutes. The remaining time was taken up by the logistics of moving the jury back and forth and just letting the lawyers know that they had made their decision.

So reading his verdict, the jury foreman never even looked at Ballard. And Ballard expressed no surprise or emotion as the decision was read. In fact, he never showed any emotion whatsoever. He did glance at the jury as they were being led away, shook hands with his attorneys, and then just sat there with a neutral facial expression. So Ballard is incarcerated at one of two state institutions for the state's death row inmates. The institution houses about 1,800 prisoners, including 160 death row inmates, who are segregated from the general prison population. Ballard lives in an 8 by 10 foot cell, is allowed one visit per week, and can never have physical contact with any of his visitors.

He may leave the cell for two hours of exercise, five days per week. He can take three showers per week. And he can spend two hours in the law library, if requested. That's a hell of a lot more than any of his victims will ever be able to do. That's true. I live as a goddamn pet, he said. I'm taken out for exercise. I'm told when to eat. I live in a goddamn cage. I'm a pet. This is not a goddamn life. Ballard maintains that he feels remorse for the deaths of Stephen Cernhelt and Alvin Marsh Jr., but not for Dennis Marsh and not for Denise Mary. If I could literally dig her the fuck up and do this to her again, I would, Ballard said. That's the amount of rage I still have toward her.

Well, that's crazy. Yeah, I guess he's rehabilitated pretty well. I think, yeah. Let's give this guy another chance. Jesus. Wow. Well, in an appeal to the Supreme Court of Pennsylvania, Ballard's sentencing was affirmed. His main reason for appeal was the admissibility of victim impact testimony, and his attorneys challenged the jury's weighing in of aggravating and mitigating circumstances. They claimed that the court abused its discretion by admitting autopsy photos, crime scene photos, and what Ballard had written in blood on the basement wall. But the court determined that the photos were relevant to explain to the jury what Dr. Lysak observed at the crime scene. Well, no shit, right? Yeah. This is what happened.

We shouldn't have to cover it up for the jury and for his benefit in any way. That's fucking ridiculous. What a scumbag. So this Ballard was definitely trouble from the beginning. Sadly, to me, it seems like Denise's own mental health issues may have contributed to her being involved with him in the first place. Yeah, she met him when he was a patient at her job. It was probably not a good thing for a relationship, for the start of a relationship. Yeah. And she knew about the crime he'd been convicted of as a young man, which was murder. Right, which should usually be a deal breaker. But she dated him anyway. She did. So he was obviously a bad choice for a partner. But more importantly, Ballard probably should never have been out on parole in the first place.

No, he certainly didn't seem like he was stable in any way. Nope. So he was scheduled to die on December 2, 2014, but Northampton County Judge Emil Giordano issued a stay of execution. And after that, other dates have been set, but he has not been executed. Yeah, because Ballard is part of a class action lawsuit for death row inmates that says the death penalty shouldn't be carried out in Pennsylvania. This suit says the drugs administered during lethal injections aren't the same drugs specified for use under state law. The procedures for executions weren't developed in public. The justice system isn't authorized to accept prescription drugs used in lethal injections.

And medical professionals who administer the lethal drugs are supposed to heal people, not kill them. Yeah. Now, as a physician, what do you think of that? Would you do that? Would you give a lethal dose to someone? Or is it against your Hippocratic Oath? Well, I would not give a lethal dose. Yeah. I couldn't do it. Because of the oath or just general morality? First, do no harm. Yeah. The whole thing about the morality of the death penalty. I have my views. That's all I'll say. Yeah. Well, we all do. But it just doesn't seem, practically speaking, it doesn't seem to work out the greatest. No. As far as expenses and appeals and all that, it just doesn't seem to be the greatest thing.

So Pennsylvania has executed three people since the death penalty was legalized in the 1970s. And the most recent was in 1999. But the thing is, all three of these people had voluntarily relinquished their appeals. So they were just pretty much okay with it. So they were in effect saying, go ahead and proceed. Yeah. So I don't think he will ever be put to death. He'll die first. It's been 14 years since these murders. And how old was he then? Like early 40s? Well, he was 18 when he killed the gay man. Then you had 15 years in prison. So he's 33. Then that's 14 years. So he's like 50-ish. I mean, roughly without doing the math completely.

So I mean, he still may have a long way to live, but it won't be anywhere other than where he is. Exactly. That's the point. Yeah. Okay. So we're going to have some feedback. But before we go ahead with that, I just want to remind you guys that we have a premium option of TCB. And if you subscribe to that, you can get early ad free and bonus shows. We'll also send you a gift, some swag and a thank you note. So it's a great way to support the show. And we really love our supporters. We do do a bonus show each month. And we're also looking at a couple of true crime documentaries we've really enjoyed recently.

that I want to recap and discuss for our members in the next few weeks. So those will be some more members only ad-free episodes for you to listen to. So if you'd like to do that, you can subscribe at tiegrabber.com slash subscribe. You can also subscribe at patreon.com slash tiegrabber for the same benefits. Some other ways we encourage you to support our show is to give us a review on Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to us. And as always, we'd love to get an email or a voicemail with your feedback and case suggestions. If you have feedback or case suggestions for us to cover on an upcoming episode, you can send us an email. Just send it to truecrimebrewery at tiegrabber.com.

Also, we have the option of recording a voicemail right from your phone or your computer to give us your suggestions or any comments or thoughts you have on a case. We really love to hear from our listeners. It's time for listener feedback. So Dickie, what you got there? Well, we have some feedback from three people. First one is from Allison. Okay. So Allison writes, it's been two years since I started listening to your podcast and you guys are still my favorite. I've listened to all the episodes twice and I'm ready to dig into the members only content. Your guys' voices increase my focus while doing repetitive work and help me to fall asleep. What a paradoxical effect. One more interesting fact. I foster shy and shut down dogs and your podcast helps them to relax and sleep too. So it's not a rare occasion when my husband finds me and a foster dog napping together on a dog bed with your podcast playing.

Now that warms my heart because I'm such a dog person. Yeah. Well, it's like the same thing with our dogs. They love hearing our soothing voices. Well, that might be true. But wow, Allison, you're a great person. That's a wonderful thing to do. Not to play the podcast necessarily, but to save these dogs. Wonderful. Thank you for that. So Allison goes on. I have a case suggestion. July 2016, Craig Rideout was killed by his wife and two oldest sons. He and his wife had seven kids together.

When they were separated, the older children lived with his wife and the younger ones lived mostly with him. 48 Hours did an episode on this case recently from which Craig sounded like a loving father, but his wife was very manipulative. Somehow she convinced most of her kids, if not all of them, to hate him. The younger kids were even instructed to frame him as an abusive father. At the end, he was murdered in his own basement and his wife and sons dumped his body in a neighboring county. How in the world did a mother make her kids kill their father? I think nobody can analyze this case better than you two. Oh, and one last crazy bit. The mother blamed the murder entirely on her sons. Can you believe it?

No, I can't. That's fucking awful. That's about the worst thing you can do, really. Mother of the Year award right there. Oh, my God. And I did go ahead and watch this episode, and it is shocking. We do have to cover it. Oh, my God. So this happened in Rochester, New York, and Allison says she's certain that you can recommend a great beer, hopefully not a stout. So there's your hint. Love you guys, and always look forward to new episodes. Love from Colorado, the state of high-security prisons. See, she's showing her pride there. There you are. And Allison, I promise you, when we do this case, the beer will be something besides a stout. Yeah, you better write that down so you don't forget. Yeah, because I pick stouts a lot, don't I?

Yeah. Okay. No stout. So do you want to say anything else about it? You got any background to add? Yeah, I was trying not to give too much information. Yeah, because we're going to do this one for sure. So let's just say Craig Wrightout and Laura Assam got married in January 1993. Over the next few years, they had seven children and had financial problems, maybe too many kids and not enough income. That happens. Yeah. In 2014, Laura moved out and she took the five oldest children with her. So the two youngest ones stayed with Craig. Okay. And Laura moved in with Paul Tucci and filed for divorce. It's another complicating factor.

Rideout complained that Laura was brainwashing her kids, turning them against him. Which is true. So he was murdered in 2017. Laura and Colin Rideout, that's one son, were convicted of second-degree murder and evidence tampering. Alex Rideout was convicted of evidence tampering. Paul Tucci was acquitted of all charges. Well, that's interesting. Yes. I want to see how much of a role he was playing. Yeah. Must not have been much because he got acquitted. I guess not, but these kids, even the ones that weren't convicted or involved completely, how do you grow up and come to terms with that in any way? No, that's a good question. Test to fuck you up badly.

Yeah. Okay. So great suggestion, Allison. Thanks, Allison. Thanks, Allison. And thanks from our dogs. They're really pleased with you. Now we're going to hear from Jacob. Okay. You're going to read this one. Hello, Dick and Jill. This is Jacob from North Dakota, now living in Dallas. Like I said, I was planning to do. I emailed you in late 2021 with a couple of case suggestions, and I now have another one. And this case is a 2021 murder of Daniel Halseth at the hands of his own 16-year-old daughter, Sierra, and her 18-year-old boyfriend, Aaron Guerrero. We've covered some cases like that before, and they always are shocking. They are. So they had brutally killed him because he forbade them from seeing each other. So we got that.

And Jacob also says one interesting fact is that Daniel's ex-wife, Elizabeth, used to be a state senator for the state of Nevada. Huh, that is interesting. And another fact is that this happened in Las Vegas, where Jacob just happened to be taking a trip there around the same time that the crime occurred. Oh, wow. So these two, Daniel and Elizabeth Halseth, were married in 2001, then divorced 10 years later, and they had three children. Daniel did not like the relationship his oldest daughter had with her boyfriend, so he forbade her from seeing him. And in return, she and her boyfriend murdered him.

I'm not going to go into the details because it is horrific, but it's also a really good suggestion that I think we will cover. These two kids didn't really act very innocent. They did a lot of things that indicated that they had committed the crime. You seem to see that a lot in these cases where they really just seem really fucking evil, don't they? Yeah, like they don't care. No, they do it and then they still don't care. Horrific. And that suggestion from Allison is similar. Mother gets the kids to kill the father. I know, but don't you realize that he's forbidding you because he loves you? I mean, hello. Whether you agree with him or not, he's trying to protect you as your father. It's just there's something missing in those brains, for sure. That's right. Okay, one more email.

One more. Carrie from Queensland. All right. Hi, Jill and Dick. I'm Carrie from Queensland, Australia. I'm new to your podcast and enjoy listening to them. A lot to catch up on. There are a lot of them. Yes, there are. I love the length, the detailed information that's included, and the interaction between you both. Well, thank you, Carrie. I would really like to hear you tell the very sad story of Lucy Letby, the neonatal nurse from the UK who's been convicted of killing seven babies and attempting to kill eight more. I listened to the podcast of her trial and would really like to hear your take on it. We've talked about this case. We have. I think it was recommended before because I think I purchased a book and even got some...

court data on that around this office somewhere. And we haven't done a medical person killer for a while. Not for a while, no. So I think it's a great one to do. I think all the recommendations today are definitely ones that we'll do episodes on. So that's always nice. Good idea. Yeah. So this Lucy Letby was convicted of murdering seven infants and the attempted murder of seven more. So shocking, disgusting, but also fascinating to what would make someone do that. It's always something to talk about. Also, it's interesting to see how hospitals or hospital staff, how they...

maybe not covered it up, but chose to ignore things that would indicate something was going on. We see that all the time. It's a lot like the Catholic Church just passing the problem on. They'll fire the nurse, right? Yeah. And then the nurse will show up at another hospital. Yeah. And this one, there's at least one instance where a physician complained that things were happening when Lucy Leppy was at the job. And the response was to move her to another shift.

Crazy. Yeah. So that will make for some good discussion. Absolutely. Right. Okay. Well, thanks everyone for listening. Great episode. Really some great feedback, Dickie. Thank you for bringing that to me. And thank you, listeners. We appreciate it very much. And we'll be talking to you soon next time at the Quiet End. We'll be there. Okay. Bye-bye. Bye, guys.