Boom shake the room fire nation JLD here and welcome to entrepreneurs on fire brought to you by the HubSpot podcast network with great shows Like the salesmen podcast today. We'll be focusing on how to negotiate with a narcissist and win to drop these value bombs I brought Rebecca zung on the mic she is a narcissism and negotiation expert has recognized as the best lawyer in America by us news She has two best-selling books six million views on YouTube and as I'm featured on extra dr. Drew NPR Forbes time How to post Newsweek and many more media outlets in today's financial talk about how do you define a narcissist how they act in negotiations? What's the secret to negotiating with them and so much more when we get back from thinking our sponsors the podcast now Is the audio destination for business professionals who see the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business?
What are you looking for marketing sales service or operational guidance the HubSpot podcast network host have your back listen learning Grow with the HubSpot podcast network at HubSpot dot com slash podcast network hiring Feel like trying to find a needle in a haystack when you post a job on zip recruiter They're matching technology fines these qualified candidates for you and invites them to apply So while the W2 and options zip recruiter finds you the needle in a haystack and right now You can try zip recruiter for free at zip recruiter dot com slash fire Rebecca say what's up to fire nation and share something that you believe About becoming successful that most people disagree with so what's up fire nation So excited to join you. I'm super excited to be part of your podcast and being part of your community As far as something that I believe that most people disagree with I'm gonna go ahead and say Execution I think a lot of people think that maybe it's brains Maybe it's a lot of other things But I really think a lot of it has to do with actually doing what you say you're going to do And I know that sounds really simplistic, but so many people just don't do that I mean isn't there a quote or something along the lines of like all the best ideas are buried in the graveyard because hey You have a great idea but unless you execute on that idea fire nation ain't nothing going to happen So let's get going on this and I love this topic and I shared that with you back before you record button because it's really interesting We're talking about how to negotiate with a narcissist and win so first off. What the heck is it narcissist? I mean, how would you define narcissist?
I love that question because it is not somebody who just says something nice about themselves You know a lot of people are like oh, you know, everybody's supposed to be doing self-love So what's the difference between self-love and being a narcissist, right? So it really is comes down to two things if it's a person who has no sense of inner value So they have to get all of their value from the external world if either for people or events or things and And coupled with this is really important. They have no sense of care compassion or empathy for other people They just can't that in there. So it's both of those things It's not just somebody who goes around saying that they're great now Let's talk about specifically within negotiations because that's something that I maybe just don't understand Don't get is like that you may be treating them a little differently negotiations than you would a non-narcissist But I mean let's be honest as I shared in the introduction You've had quite the experience over the years in courtrooms and out of courtrooms in these types of negotiations So how do narcissists specifically act in negotiations and how will this help us knowing how they act?
So the main difference between narcissists and what I call reasonable people is that they don't want the same thing that a reasonable person Is thinking toward resolution they have an eye toward what's going to resolve this matter the narcissist actually their ego is fed And what we call that narcissistic supply their ego is fed by jerking people around by controlling the process by seeing people squirm by manipulating By intimidating so even though their lips might say they want a resolution You're wondering why they're constantly changing the goal post why you can't ever see depend them down why there's protracted litigation why they are Stalling on things not disclosing information withholding all sorts of things and the reason why is because they get narcissistic supply From that process so Rebecca what I really want to understand is maybe an example of how you've seen this in action I mean of course we don't use names we can protect the innocence or the guilty whatever they may be But like how you seen this actually act out in the real world give us as specific as an example as you can Okay So I was representing a narcissist in this particular instance and here's a guy who's saying he wants the case to be settled But he also says to me I'd rather pay you than her So you know it comes down to let's you know It's time to provide financial documents whichever required by law So there's a certain amount of disclosure that's required by law in certain types of cases and you know He's refusing to fork over the financial information everything has to be done by subpoena everything is you know Objective to and you know I had a deal with this as a lawyer and I would be saying to him This is a waste of money. Why are you objecting to this? You are going to go in front of the judge and the judge is going to say provide the documents And he just said I just want to make it as difficult as possible. I don't want to provide the documents I don't want her in my stuff.
I don't want to have to do this and so even though it's something that eventually he's gonna End up having to do he just makes it as difficult as possible for the other side now You have a lot of experience negotiating with narcissists You've also you already shared a lot of tips those tactics and different things But what's the secret like one big secret to negotiating with narcissists? They'll be really helpful for us now I already told you about narcissistic supply so but within the narcissist brain in their world They and they don't even consciously think about this but they have there's a hierarchy of supply for them So there's a form of supply that they'll keep they'll protect they'll do anything they have to to keep and that's usually wrapped up in How they look to the world how they look to people they respect how they look to mediators judges lawyers anybody in the process It might be their employees it might be their employers it might be neighbors friends It really doesn't matter but there are certain people out there in the world that for the narcissist they will do anything They have to to maintain their facade of looking perfect and wonderful wonderful in front of those people Then there's what I call that the diamond level supply and then what I call the coal level supply Which means it burns it gives them energy and of course they want to keep it It's definitely valuable for them But that's the supply that they get that I just explained to you in the negotiation where they are Jerking people around and controlling the process and making everything difficult and all that sort of thing So the really the key is building a strategy and leverage that actually threatens a source of narcissistic supply That's going to be more important for the narcissist to keep and protect and retain than the supply that they got from jerking you around and making you miserable And the key is going okay. This is going to happen you're going to be exposed and therefore they'll have to let go of you know It won't be worth it to them anymore at that point Fire Nation you can create a magic bullet leverage and guess what we're gonna talk about specifically how to use it So what the importance of mindsets when you're negotiating with narcissists and so much more when we get back from taking our sponsors Recent data shows that of all the female owned businesses It is estimated that one in three is owned by a mom Ever wonder how these amazing moms and dads find to hire for their businesses while juggling their families They do it with zip recruiter and right now you can try it for free at zip recruiter dot com slash fire CEO and founder Talia Bolstini is one such mom from you are beside being a mother of two her personalized matchmaking company Three-day rule is constantly growing she needs to hire several matchmakers a month So she uses zip recruiter zip recruiters powerful technology helps her find people with the right experience and actively invites him to apply But Talia is not the only employer who loves zip recruiter In fact four out of five employers who post on zip recruiter get a quality candidate within the first day and right now You can try zip recruiter for free just visit zip recruiter dot com slash fire This special offer is available right now at zip recruiter dot com slash fire Zip recruiter the smartest way to hire business growth is something we all want But let's be honest with growth comes complexity as you add new team members more customer data and new process to help you scale You need software that can support you for that There's HubSpot just a few examples of how HubSpot can help support you in your business include HubSpot's conversational intelligence tools Which makes it easy to scale your team you can view call transcripts and modern conversations You think you the ability to provide real-time feedback and support for your team Another way to help spots customizable reports and analytics tools These help give you a quick and easy look at how your business performing without having to rely on an operations team Finally with 650 plus integrations HubSpot is sure offer you everything you need while giving you the flexibility that anything that will further support You and your business as you grow customize it to meet your business without adding complexity Learn more about how you can scale your company without scaling complexity at HubSpot dot com We're back we're back and we can tease that magic bullet and creating a leverage with this magic bullet We decide to use it when we decide to employ it. So kind of break that down for us.
What is this magic bullet? How do we use it? How do we create it? How do we leverage it?
So this magic bullet is what I just started to explain which is that figuring out what's going to I call it ethically manipulating the manipulator So you're basically figuring out what motivates them and you know in any negotiation any interaction with people all people want to feel seen heard I know that they matter that's actually just part of being human and really good negotiators also figure out what's motivating the other side But the problem is that when you're dealing with narcissists a lot of times people think that what's motivating the other side might be money Might be you know if it's a divorce situation it might be their kids or something like that But that is actually very rarely what is truly the motivation for a narcissist so when you're creating that magical leverage What you're doing is you're thinking about what's going to really motivate and squeeze that narcissist and incentivize them into wanting to come to The table with you and the way that you do that is you come up with the things that are potentially going to expose them such as creating summaries of their lies and inconsistent statements and Maybe creating summaries of times that they didn't pay something on time or that they withheld money or they didn't do something That they were supposed to do anything that's gonna potentially not play well when it comes time to for the negotiation Either to the mediator or to other people that are going to be part of that negotiation process You know the other thing you can do is say listen I'm going I call it the posing to expose You know where they actually you say I'm gonna depose these people in your world in this camp And we're gonna have a conversation about what it is that you're doing and you know They don't necessarily want that to happen So you're building an invisible fence around that narcissist in a way that they have no choice but to deal with you in a reasonable Person way and you know it seems like for the person who's the empath or the person who is the peace person who just wants to have a peaceful resolution Who just wants you know, let's just say goodbye Let's you know not burn bridges Let's try to have some sort of relationship after this It's hard to imagine that you have to create leverage that you have to have a strategy because they It seems like you want to fight when you do that But so it seems counterintuitive But when you're dealing with a narcissist if you want to have a peaceful resolution if you want to come to that that nice Tie up in a bow walk away sort of situation where you are somewhat unscathed You have to create strategy and leverage where you will never be able to get back to that point now We talk a lot about mindsets on our new zone fire Let's talk a little bit about the importance of mindsets when you're negotiating with a narcissist How does this play a role? Oh, I mean it's critical It's interesting because I've always said 80% of a negotiation is one before you walk into a room I actually just interviewed Bob Proctor and he corrected me on my own show and said it No, it's 95% I will say that and some ways I have to agree with him because if you don't have a powerful mindset if you aren't certain that you can Win if you don't feel strong then you know you will never be able to get where you want to go And so you know one of my favorite pieces of advice that was ever given to me was by one of my own business coaches And I was you know in a situation where I was worried that somebody was gonna think something about me I was worried that somebody was gonna think it was a flake and she said people will think what you tell them to think and It was such an aha moment for me and I've always every time I speak on negotiation or you know my book or my podcast Whatever I always make sure I work that in because people will think what you tell them to think and if you're afraid in some way If you are Nervous or you're feeling like other person is more powerful and you're never gonna be able to get where you want to go Or never have a powerful resolution then you you know you're never gonna go farther than where you think you're going You know so because we close down here Let's talk about the one thing that we have to remember from successfully negotiate with these narcissists and not just negotiate with them But actually win break that down for us I mean you hit it on the nail as part of the nail on ahead as far as mindset has to be first But also doing your research making sure you're researching your site making sure you're anticipating what the other sides arguments are going to be doing Your risk assessment you know all those things are really really important in developing a report Making sure that you start with the things that are more agreed upon and work toward the more Difficult areas I would definitely say make sure that you are asking for a hell of a lot more than what it is that you actually want And also don't let on what it is that's most important for you to get out of this negotiation because whatever that is The narcissist is gonna want to make sure you don't get so you know in some ways doing having a decoy where you're saying Hey, this is really really really important to me And it's something that you really don't even care about that much because you know They like to be contrarians I like to make sure that if that's the one thing that you want that that's the one thing that they're gonna go after make sure you get That's what I really realize is dealing with the few narcissists that I've had to deal with on a human basis They love and I mean love playing devil's advocate I mean you say something even they agree with you at the core They're always gonna take you off to sign on things just because they want to be controlling the plated devil's advocate So just be prepared for that it always seems to happen and Rebecca I want to just take a step back now. Give you the mic what's one thing out of everything we've talked about here today That you really want to make sure fire nation gets before we say goodbye So I want to talk about value your internal value versus your external value and you know you and you alone define your value Your value is not defined by that narcissist your value is not defined by anything external It's defined by you and you are inherently valuable You are the only person on the planet that is like you you're the only person that ever has been or ever will be you are meant to be here And so regardless of how the other person makes you feel You know you don't you have the power to not give them that permission you have the power to say I'm not allowing whatever your issues are to You know become me so you know remember that because when you go to negotiate with a narcissist you become public enemy number one With a narcissist they're gonna do whatever they can to take you down They're street fighters they fight dirty You know so whatever the equivalent is of kicking you in the groin and pulling your hair and biting you That's what they will that's what they're willing to do So it's going to be really really important that you you've not Emotionalize that you step back from that and you say that's not me and I see how you're behaving I see what you're doing and almost sort of look at them as if they're like having a tantrum on the floor You know like okay two-year-old having a tantrum So I see what you're doing has nothing to do with me and the more that you can do that and the more that you can stop yourself From being triggered the more power you will have over them and the less power they will have over you Rebecca you have two best-selling books You have over six million views on YouTube and you've been featured on extra dr. Drew NPR Forbes time I've imposed you name it you've been there.
How can fire nation connect with you? How can they consume word your content? What's your call to action for our audience today? Definitely check out my YouTube channel, which is youtube.com forward slash Rebecca Zung But obviously if you just put in negotiating with narcissist I'm the only one out there who is talking about that on the planet right now And you can follow me at Rebecca Zung calm you can join my free private Facebook group Which is narcissist negotiators with Rebecca Zung I have a free crush my negotiation prep worksheet which you can get at win my negotiation calm and You know come check out all my free resources tons and tons of stuff out there for you You do not have to do this alone So I look forward to supporting you through this process fire nation You're the average of the five people you spend the most time with and hello You've been hanging out with RZ and JLD today So let's keep up that heat and head over to eofire.com type of Rebecca and the search bar her speech will pop up Everything we've been talking about here today links to everything Of course head directly over to all those awesome links and calls action that she shared as well and Rebecca Thank you for sharing your truth your knowledge your value with fire nation today for that we salute you and we'll catch you on the flip side Thank you.
Hey fire nation today's value bond contest brought to you by Rebecca ends If you had your big idea you ready to ignite but my free train will get you to your big idea if you don't have it We're talking in less than 60 minutes visit your big idea. I owe today and I'll catch you there I'll catch you on the flip side The HubSpot podcast network is the audio destination for business professionals who see the best education and inspiration on how to grow a business Whether you're looking for marketing sales service or operational guidance the HubSpot podcast network host have your back Listen learn and grow with the HubSpot podcast network at HubSpot dot com slash podcast network hiring Feel like trying to find a needle in a haystack when you post a job on zip recruiter They're matching technology finds these qualified candidates for you and invites them to apply So while there will be two options zip recruiter finds you the needle in a haystack and right now You can try zip recruiter for free at zip recruiter dot com slash fire