Kevin Kelly on Flounder Mode and Optimism episode artwork

EPISODE · Jan 13, 2026 · 55 MIN

Kevin Kelly on Flounder Mode and Optimism

from Humans in the Loop · host Seb Agertoft

How to describe Kevin Kelly?Founder of Wired Magazine. Writer of industry defining essays like '1000 true fans' - https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/Co-chair of The Long Now Foundation encouraging people to think on civilisational timescalesPassionate traveller and photographer whose travelled remote parts of Asia for the last 50 years - https://kevin2kelly.myshopify.com/products/colors-of-asia-a-visual-journeyThe subject of the brilliant term, coined by Brie Wolfson - Flounder Mode https://joincolossus.com/article/flounder-mode/And a dream podcast guestKevin is known for many things, not least his optimism, but Kevin's flavour of optimism is what we calls 'protopian not utopian' - an acknowledgement that new technology creates major new problems but that over time we find ways to solve themChapters00:00 The Hollywood Approach to Career Paths05:20 Pursuing Interesting Projects07:46 Influence and Unique Contributions10:38 Radical Optimism Explained13:38 The Choice of Optimism16:28 The Reality of Progress19:05 Wrestling with Counter Narratives21:54 Building Better Technology28:18 Navigating Technology's Strengths and Weaknesses30:54 The Ethics of Technology Creation33:14 The Role of Corporations in Technology36:04 The Necessity of Innovation in Addressing Problems42:14 Long-Term Thinking and the Long Now Foundation47:55 Envisioning a Desirable Future53:11 Celebrating Cultural Heritage Through PhotographyGet in touchInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppodEmail: [email protected] website: https://www.theuncommonfounder.com

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Kevin Kelly on Flounder Mode and Optimism

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