Humans in the Loop

China is shaping the world.In direct ways, like innovation, foreign policy, investment.And indirectly, by provoking a response from countries such as the US who see it as a competitor.China's transformation into one of the world's superpowers is the most remarkable transformation of a single country in the history of the world.And yet it's still poorly understood (including by me).Selina Xu is a writer, researcher and AI & China policy lead in the office of former Google CEO, Eric Schmidt and is here to shed light on China and its technology industry, dispelling some myths along the way.Where else you can listen:Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/4BbslJR0KA5bfqrcYRhJER?si=d0edc1049eac4f39Apple podcasts - https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/humans-in-the-loop/id1831285114Or wherever you get your podcasts!Chapters00:00 The Evolution of China's Tech Industry03:38 Debunking the Copycat Narrative06:16 The Role of the State in Innovation09:51 Xi Jinping's Vision for Technology12:44 The Return of Jack Ma15:35 China's Perspective on Global Competition19:28 Defining Winning in the Superpower Race22:40 China's Unique Approach to Technology Deployment26:50 The Role of the State in AI Development30:03 DeepSeek and the Evolution of Chinese AI34:19 Agentic AI: Trends and Trajectories36:57 Emerging Frontiers in AI Research40:12 Infrastructure and Support for Tech Industries43:44 Geopolitical Implications of Taiwan and Semiconductors46:03 Cultural Perspectives on China and Tech48:53 Optimistic Visions for the Future of AILinks:Selina's websiteChina's AI+ initiativeInvolutionSuspension of ANT's IPOCommon prosperityDeepseek momentChin AI substack - Jeffrey DingGet in touchInstagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod⁠Email: ⁠[email protected]⁠Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com

Henry Shukman is a Zen Master, a meditation teacher, and co-founder of The Way meditation app.As AI poses some hard questions about what it means to be human, I thought Henry might help make some sense of things.Chapters00:00 Understanding Zen: A Personal Journey03:52 The Need for Spirituality: A Personal Crisis10:07 Living Zen in the Modern World13:36 Navigating Modern Existence: Technology and Spirituality18:38 The Motivations Behind Meditation23:15 Technology's Role in Meditation: The Way App32:06 Ambition and Spirituality: Finding Balance39:47 AI and the Nature of Consciousness45:04 Optimism for the Future: Meditation's ImpactLinks⁠The Way App⁠ - https://www.thewayapp.com/Get in touchInstagram: ⁠https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppod⁠Email: ⁠[email protected]⁠Website: ⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com

My guests today are artists, film makers, educators, technologists and founders of Fuser, a company building an AI workspace for creatives. With so much noise around what AI should or shouldn’t be used for, and where human creativity starts and ends, I wanted to get Dalena and Hirad on to talk more about the creative process in this technological moment.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Fuser and Its Founders03:40 The Vision Behind Fuser06:12 Creative Applications of Fuser08:35 The Role of AI in Creative Processes11:24 Navigating the Challenges of AI in Art13:29 The Future of Creativity with AI15:48 Investor Relations and Company Integrity19:00 The Evolving Landscape of Art and Technology20:52 Conclusion and Future AspirationsLinksFuserBrand videoGet in touch⁠Instagram⁠⁠⁠https://www.theuncommonfounder.com⁠[email protected]⁠

Mike Masnick wrote the paper that helped inspire Bluesky and now he sits on the Bluesky board.A long-time advocate of decentralised tech, Mike's paper 'Protocols not platforms' outlined how a more open protocol-based system to social media would create a healthier social media ecosystem in which people were free to vote with their feet (or their mouse) and go elsewhere, without losing access to the community they'd built.In this wide ranging conversation, Mike and I discuss the future of social media, the internet's trajectory from an open to a closed ecosystem, whether decentralisation can be a winning strategy in a capitalist economy, and much more.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Mike Masnick and Tech Perspectives05:53 The Evolution of TechDirt and Innovation11:03 Understanding Free Speech in the Digital Age15:53 Protocols vs. Platforms: A New Approach to Free Speech20:50 The Shift from Protocol-Centric to Platform-Centric Internet28:48 The Evolution of Patents and Competition31:10 Understanding the Problems with Big Tech32:23 Moving Towards Decentralization33:23 The Role of Decentralized Protocols35:11 Generative AI: Empowerment vs. Control37:55 Building Personalized Tools for Empowerment41:35 Decentralization in Social Media: Blue Sky Explained49:12 The Future of Decentralized Systems53:04 Mainstream Adoption of Decentralized TechnologiesLinksProtocols not platformsBlueskyGet in touchInstagram⁠https://[email protected]⁠

Alex Komoroske is one of the smartest voices out there talking about better forms of technology right now.He spent a long chapter of his career at the likes of Google and Stripe and is now the Founder and CEO of Common Tools, working on enabling decentralised technology.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Alex Komoroske's Perspective on Tech03:39 The Hacker Ethic and Disillusionment in Tech06:31 The Slide into Cynicism: A Cultural Shift in Tech09:12 Emergence and Coordination Complexity in Organizations11:40 Slime Molds: A Metaphor for Organizational Dynamics14:24 The Future of Incumbent Organizations17:24 The Same Origin Policy and Its Consequences20:06 Resonance vs. Hollowness in Technology22:50 The Resonant Computing Manifesto25:09 The Role of LLMs in Shaping the Future32:07 Unlocking the Power of LLMs35:40 The Role of Privacy in Resonant Computing37:09 Organizational Structures for Resonance42:24 The Importance of a Resonant Privacy Model46:38 Emergence and Resonance in Technology53:55 A Vision for the Future of TechnologyLinks:Resonant computing manifestoAlex’s websiteSlime molds deckAlex’s ‘bits and bobs’ documentThe Same Origin ParadigmGet in touch: https://www.instagram.com/[email protected]://www.theuncommonfounder.com

How to describe Kevin Kelly?Founder of Wired Magazine. Writer of industry defining essays like '1000 true fans' - https://kk.org/thetechnium/1000-true-fans/Co-chair of The Long Now Foundation encouraging people to think on civilisational timescalesPassionate traveller and photographer whose travelled remote parts of Asia for the last 50 years - https://kevin2kelly.myshopify.com/products/colors-of-asia-a-visual-journeyThe subject of the brilliant term, coined by Brie Wolfson - Flounder Mode https://joincolossus.com/article/flounder-mode/And a dream podcast guestKevin is known for many things, not least his optimism, but Kevin's flavour of optimism is what we calls 'protopian not utopian' - an acknowledgement that new technology creates major new problems but that over time we find ways to solve themChapters00:00 The Hollywood Approach to Career Paths05:20 Pursuing Interesting Projects07:46 Influence and Unique Contributions10:38 Radical Optimism Explained13:38 The Choice of Optimism16:28 The Reality of Progress19:05 Wrestling with Counter Narratives21:54 Building Better Technology28:18 Navigating Technology's Strengths and Weaknesses30:54 The Ethics of Technology Creation33:14 The Role of Corporations in Technology36:04 The Necessity of Innovation in Addressing Problems42:14 Long-Term Thinking and the Long Now Foundation47:55 Envisioning a Desirable Future53:11 Celebrating Cultural Heritage Through PhotographyGet in touchInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/humansinthelooppodEmail: [email protected] website: https://www.theuncommonfounder.com

Ed has spent his career thinking systemically about the future and consulting with governments and corporations on topics as varied as the environment, politics, healthcare and education.He's also the co-host of hit podcast 'Jon Richardson and the Futurenauts' alongside comedian Jon Richardson and fellow Futurenaut Mark Stevenson.Given Ed's varied expertise I wasn't quite sure where this conversation would go, but I needn't have worried. What unfolded was a great chat about climate, politics, and the soft technologies of technology that we need to make better use of to solve our toughest problems.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Ed's Work04:22 The Role of a Futurist07:17 Asking the Right Questions10:23 The Politicization of Climate Change13:12 The Transition to Renewable Energy16:01 Motivations Behind Climate Action18:57 The Economic Case for Renewables22:01 The Challenge of Unburnable Carbon25:17 Exploring Economic Models: Degrowth vs. Abundance29:59 Grassroots Perspectives on Climate Action34:43 Bystander Leadership: The Call for Courage40:20 Finding Hope Amidst Challenges46:41 Envisioning a Future of Bio-Regionalism

Benedikt Lehnert is former design leader at Microsoft and Chief Design Officer at SAP. He's had a seat at the top table in big tech and brings his own clear-eyed perspective based on that experience.I really enjoyed the conversation with Ben as we discussed the role of the designer in this current moment, the moral responsibilities of building business and technology, the hype cycles and weird incentives at play with the AI hyperscalers, and Ben's view that we should simply focus on adding more than we take.Chapters00:00 The Evolution of a Designer05:38 Navigating the Startup Journey10:03 Transforming Microsoft: A Design Perspective14:45 The Role of Chief Design Officer at SAP20:14 Shifting Focus: From Big Tech to Teaching and Ethics30:07 The Human Condition in Technology38:35 AI and Humanistic Considerations43:17 Learning from Poets and Thinkers58:37 A Hopeful Vision for the FutureBen hosts the Poets and Thinkers podcast and you can find out more about him here: https://benediktlehnert.github.io/

SummaryIn this conversation, I speak to Kate Armstrong, the Executive Director of InterSpecies Internet, about the latest advancements in how we communicate with animals through technology.Kate emphasizes the importance of planetary kinship and the responsibility humans have as advanced toolmakers to create beneficial tools for other species. The discussion also touches on real-world applications of interspecies communication, the complexities of wild animal communication, and the need for legal frameworks to protect animal rights. Throughout the conversation, Kate shares insights into the future of this field and the resources available for those interested in learning more.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Interspecies Internet03:47 The Journey to Interspecies Communication06:59 The Origin Story of Interspecies Internet11:21 Understanding Interspecies Communication14:19 The Importance of Interspecies Communication17:17 Technological Applications in Interspecies Communication19:52 Frontiers of Interspecies Communication22:50 The Role of AI in Animal Communication25:40 Exploring Communication Across Species28:24 Anthropocentrism in Animal Communication30:39 The Magic of Interspecies Communication32:11 Domestic Animals as Communication Pioneers36:18 Ethical Considerations in Animal Communication38:45 Nature Rights and Legal Frameworks44:53 The Future of Interspecies CommunicationResources:https://www.interspecies.io/TED talk

This episode features an OG in the world of internet security, the Godfather of Cybersecurity, Bruce Schneier.Bruce describes himself as a public interest technologist, and has done many things under that banner - run companies, lectured at Harvard, testified before Congress, authored over a dozen books, and written a blog for over 20 years that has more than 250k regular readers - to name just a few.Key topics:- The need for better technical minds in policy making- The implications of AI for democracy (not as bleak as you might expect - Bruce’s new book Rewiring Democracy goes deep on the emerging implications and he remains largely optimistic)- Why the internet was not designed with security in mind- Why prompt injection makes AI applications inherently insecure for high stakes tasks- Threat modelling for personal security in an age of geopoliticsChapters00:00 What Bruce actually does03:58 The Journey to Becoming a Public Interest Technologist 06:54 Understanding Cybersecurity and the Internet Today 09:36 Advice for Online Safety and Security 12:39 The Role of Governments in Data Privacy 15:41 Geopolitical Implications of Cybersecurity 18:35 Cyber-Physical Systems and Their Risks 21:49 The Impact of AI on Cybersecurity 24:27 Rewiring Democracy in the Age of Technology 30:08 The Evolving Landscape of Cybersecurity and AI 32:21 Understanding Prompt Injection Vulnerabilities 36:30 The Internet's Security Flaws and Historical Context 39:25 Capitalism's Role in Cybersecurity Failures 46:11 Skepticism Towards Web3 and Blockchain 48:37 Rewiring Democracy for the Information Age 55:27 Trust, Power, and the Future of AI in GovernanceYou can find Bruce at www.schneier.com

This episode features Sam Stephenson, co-founder of ⁠Granola⁠ - one of the standout UK success stories in AI product building.Sam and I discussed his background as a designer, his journey to becoming a founder, the trajectory of the company so far, and shares his thoughts on designing for human agency and the future of work. Chapters00:00 Introduction to Granola and Its Purpose 02:33 Sam's Background and Design Journey 05:19 Influences from Communal Living 09:36 The Origin of Granola and Co-founder Dynamics 12:01 The Messy Process of Finding the Right Project 16:12 Simplicity in Product Design 19:11 Growth Trajectory and User Experience 21:45 Balancing Short-term and Long-term Goals 24:12 Navigating AI Development Challenges 26:50 Balancing Innovation and Practicality in AI 29:16 The Pressure of Rapid Growth in AI Startups 32:43 The Future of Work with AI Assistance 36:51 Reducing Coordination Complexity in Organizations 38:28 The Human Element in AI Interactions 41:01 Agency and Control in the Age of AI 43:31 Envisioning a High-Leverage Future with AI

In this conversation, I speak to William Morgan and Sylvan Rackham, the Co-Founders of Restless Egg, an incubator for Artist Founders, about the intersection of art, technology, and innovation. They discuss the concept of the 'artist founder', the challenges faced by creative technologists, and the need for a supportive infrastructure to foster their ideas. The conversation explores the role of institutions, funding sources, and the future of technology, particularly in relation to AI. They emphasize the importance of agency in technology and the potential for artist founders to create meaningful experiences that go beyond mere productivity enhancements.Chapters00:00 Introduction to Restless Egg01:21 Artist founders04:18 Discovering the Community of Creators10:10 Key Players in the Artist Founder Ecosystem14:37 The Role of Philosophy and Technology20:31 Bridging Art and Technology25:32 Defining the Artist Founder28:24 The Future of AI and Experience29:20 The Role of Artist Founders in E-commerce32:41 Funding the Creative Frontier36:58 The Shift in Investment Perspectives41:03 The Future of Technology and Agency44:29 AI: Tool or Evolutionary Break?51:45 The Playful Nature of Innovation58:59 Empowering Agency Through TechnologyWhere you can hear more from William and Sylvanwww.restlessegg.comWilliam's substackSome of the organisations mentioned:AntikytheraRestless EggStrelkaMedialabSome of the people mentioned:Benjamin BrattonRefik AnadolDaisy GinsbergIan ChengOther resources referenced:Sam Altman blog post about ideas peopleMy post about Creative OutsidersA piece written by friend and collaborator, Danya ShultsAn artificial history of natural intelligence