Lasers vs Painkillers: Deep-dive into Photobiomodulation

Guest: Forrest Smith — serial founder bringing clinic-grade photobiomodulation to a safe, wearable form factor. Theme: Why dose and delivery matter more than raw wattage for red light therapy.Key takeawaysWavelengths that work: Deep red 660 nm (blood flow, NO release, shallow penetration) + 808 nm near-IR (deeper tissues/joints).Mechanisms: Hemoglobin photodissociates NO → vasodilation + better O₂ delivery; mitochondria’s cytochrome c oxidase bottleneck relieved → higher ATP output; downstream: resilience to oxidative stress.Performance & recovery: Overnight reductions in CK and CRP let athletes train sooner; UFC PI and USA Weightlifting use cases mentioned.Brains & microvessels: Near-IR protocols tied to BDNF and microvascular improvements—an emerging Alzheimer’s angle.Dosing > device hype: Class-1 lasers allow precise, reproducible dosing to deeper targets; panels/LEDs spread light too broadly and shift dose by distance (inverse-square).Safety & contraindications: Class-1 lasers are eye-safe in normal use; titanium implants OK (osseointegration may improve). Pregnancy and active cancer: regulatory contraindications despite encouraging early data.Personal protocol (example): 15 min over carotids + 15 min lower abdomen (gut) upon waking; higher-melanin skin generally needs longer time at same power.Resources & links (from interview)Kineon: kineon.io Chapter markers (approx.)00:00 Why red light now? 00:34 Mission: measurable QoL at scale 03:02 Risks of NSAIDs vs alternatives 03:34 660 nm + 808 nm explained 05:34 Newer NIR bands (905–1064 nm) 07:39 Penetration depth: red vs NIR 08:34 Photoacceptors & evolution (melanin) 10:28 Hemoglobin, NO, and O₂ delivery 12:02 Mitochondria & ATP bottleneck 14:06 Brain protection & TBI athletes 14:34 CK/CRP drops & faster training 15:55 Dosing by melanin level 17:49 Implants, pregnancy, cancer notes 21:22 Biphasic dose curve; laser classes 25:26 LEDs vs lasers; panels’ dose drift 27:50 Strongest evidence areas (wound, knee OA) 29:33 Gut–brain, BDNF, microvasc/Alzheimer’s 31:46 Forrest’s daily protocol (neck + gut) 34:00 Systemic effects; fertility studies 35:32 HSA/FSA; clinician network 37:02 Where to find Kineon⭐ Enjoying the show? Please leave a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts — it takes 30 seconds and helps more people discover the science of health and longevity. Thank you!New episodes every other Tuesday. Subscribe so you don't miss one.Continue this conversation on Substack: https://robertlufkinmd.substack.comLies I Taught In Medical School — Free sample chapter: https://www.robertlufkinmd.com/lies/Web: https://www.robertlufkinmd.comYouTube: https://www.youtube.com/robertlufkinmdX: https://x.com/robertlufkinmdInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/robertlufkinmd/TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@robertlufkinLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/robertlufkinmd/