Hi, crime junkies. I'm Ashley Flowers, and I'm Britt. I am doing the case that I said I would never do the case that is our crime junkie Origin, so we said it a million times, but I mean never say never right yeah And like for I think it is for a long time I just didn't think that there was anything that I could add right like it's been done You know seven ways to Sunday I literally feel like there are more like or less versions of the Bible than there are like books written by people who like maybe The tangentially touched like what would we have that right? That's kind of always felt but what I didn't realize is like I Didn't know the whole story and I of course am talking about the case of John Benie Ramsey and when you say like our origin story like we were tabloid height when it happened This is what made us crime junkies. Yeah people always ask like how did you become a crime junkie?
I'm like you know my mom I grandma they got me into mysteries I was reading everything but really we're about the same age as John Benet which her dad reminded me of when I sat down with him and We were in the grocery store and it was like the first time you look at somebody who looks like you who's your age and all you see is like Murdered my posture forehead and it's when those like mysteries. I was like oh this thing these things happen in real life So for a generation who didn't grow up tabloid height staring into the green eyes of a beauty queen in the making and for those I was who did but maybe don't know all the facts Maybe just know this case like on a surface level and you want to really know how we got here and what you can do now I got you I have dug deep I thought I knew everything there was to know about John Benet because I grew up with the case But I found out that what I knew was just the tip of the freakin iceberg you guys I have all the same questions that you do and I even got to ask those questions to one of the people at the center of this case Someone who has been dubbed a child killer by the media But says that it is all a lie and he and his family have been victimized twice once by an unknown killer and once again by the media
I actually filmed my conversation with him You can find that and this episode on the crime junkie YouTube channel and I promise you you are not gonna want to miss it But first let me tell you the story not from any side I have no theory I thought one thing when I was young another thing when I was older But what I realized when I actually dug deep is that I never had a real understanding of the facts And that is what I hope to give you So if you were looking for a one-stop shop to give you the case a layer deeper than you will hear anywhere else This episodes for you. This is the story of Jean Benet Ramsey That feels like the 911 call heard around the world by this point
But when it first came into Boulder Police on December 26th 1996 at 552 in the morning They had no clue how infamous this call was gonna become All they knew was that they had a report of a kidnapping in an upscale neighborhood of their safe little community Now Patsy says that she made two more calls to friends of theirs after the 911 call the whites and the fernies She was asking them to come over for support before she went to like pace in front of their window Now what in actuality was probably just a couple of minutes felt to her like hours and when the marked car pulled up at 555 She says her heart sank because the ransom letter had said not to call police and that kidnappers were watching And if they saw police that they would hurt Jean Benet But it was too late now when officer French made it inside John immediately took him to wear the three-page handwritten ransom No was like splayed out on the wooden floor just off the kitchen near the stairs that Patsy have found it on and Britt like I'm gonna have you would you mind actually reading it? Oh sure the ransom note says Mr. Ramsey listen carefully. We are a group of individuals that represent a small foreign faction We respect your business, but not the country that it serves at this time
We have your daughter in our possession she is safe and unharmed if you want her to see 1997 You must follow our instructions to the letter you will withdraw $118,000 from your account $100,000 will be in $100 bills and remaining $18,000 in $20 bills Make sure that you bring an adequate size attach a to the bank when you get home You will put the money in a brown paper bag I will call you between 8 and 10 a.m. tomorrow to instruct you on delivery The delivery will be exhausting so I advise you to be rested if we monitor you getting the money early We might call you early to arrange an earlier delivery of the money and hence an earlier pick up of your daughter Any deviation of my instructions will result in the immediate execution of your daughter You will also be denied her remains for a proper burial the two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you So I advise you not to provoke them speaking to anyone about your situation such as police FBI etc Will result in your daughter being beheaded if we catch you talking to a stray dog She dies if you alert bank authorities She dies if the money is in any way marked or tampered with she dies
You'll be scanned for electron devices and if any are found she dies You can try to deceive us but be warned that we are familiar with law enforcement countermeasures and tactics You stand a 99% chance of killing your daughter if you try to outsmart us follow our instructions and you stand a 100% chance of getting her back You and your family are under constant scrutiny as well as the authorities Don't try to grow a brain John. You are not the only fat cat around so don't think that killing will be difficult Don't underestimate us John use that good southern common sense of yours It's up to you now John Victory SB TC So okay, so that's the letter that they're working with and what we know is the Ramses had an alarm system But they hadn't said it the night before or actually even in a long time Not since it had gone off accidentally and scared the little pants off John Benet and her older brother Burke who by the way is not at this point And still asleep upstairs in his room according to mom and dad now They say that they had checked on him once when they realized that John Benet was missing But once they saw that he was okay, they wanted to just let him sleep
I like I'm assuming they probably just didn't want him to worry till they had a better idea of what was going on Like what they were gonna do like once they knew that there was gonna be help and they would worry about it So officer French does this quick skim of the house and I say quick, but this puppy was over six thousand I'm actually one place like seven thousand square feet had like 15 rooms for different floors if you include the basement But French does this quick look through he doesn't see anything that jumps out his report says that there were no signs of force entry Or a struggle and obviously no signs of the missing six-year-old so he moved to instructing another officer Sergeant Reichenbach to control the scene And a I don't know when Reichenbach showed up But you'll see more people kind of start like flooding in and be controlling the scene is a loose turn in this story And something Boulder police will get roasted for down the line because within 15 minutes of French is a rival those friends that Patsy I call start showing up for Silla and Fleet white had been their first call followed by John and Barbara Fernie And somehow the family priest gets contacted along the way and like one by one these people are showing up and they're there by like 713 now while John Ramsey made calls to try and line up that hundred eighteen thousand dollars that the kid never had asked for
More and more people were showing up too So they had victim advocates that came to the house there were finally some detectives that got there by like 810 that morning Mainly Linda aren't who was charged with managing the situation now what John told me that he didn't know at the time Were that these weren't seasoned homicide or missing persons detectives? What the detectives didn't know at the time was that this wasn't a missing persons case The school year is in full swing and kids have found their footing I excel helps them build on what they've learned so far and stay competent heading deeper into fall I excel covers everything from pre-k to 12th grade plus it saves time and money one subscription covers every child in your household Studies show that students who use I excel perform better academically with proven results in all 50 states in fact one and four US students use I excel and it's used in 96 of the top 100 school districts in the US one of the most proactive things I feel like I can do as a parent is help support the learning in the classroom which tools at home and I excel is one of the easiest And most effective ways to do just that make it impact on your child's learning get I excel now and crime junk listeners can get an exclusive
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Who was one of the people Patsy had called come over he had taken Burke back to their house and while Patsy cried in one room with her friends By her side John was in another taking instructions from detective art about what to do if the kidnapper called and he's like going through the mail He told me to see if there's any other communications from the kidnapper and he told me that he was in just like Do-do-do mode like action mode. He thought that if he kept his wits about that's the same He always used I keep my wits about me then if I'm smart like I could still actually get my daughter I have to hear this out right now plenty of people had been looking around the house without finding anything But John wanted to keep moving so at some point that morning exact time a little fuzzy TV But at some point that morning he went down to the basement which this is a point that Boulder police gets roasted on right like people are just all Over the house contaminating the crap out of like what is actually a crime scene?
Oh, yeah, they it's kind of wow They had blocked off John Benet's room like five hours after detective French got to the house But everything else is like a free-for-all like had at it seems like people were all over the place nothing was off limits Except John Benet's room except a room right and there's nothing that stands out about her room, right? No, I mean like so her covers were pulled back like someone had got her out of bed There's some stuff that becomes interesting a little bit later Which I can get into but nothing that really stands out in there It looks like a room that a kid had just kind of truly gotten like plucked out from in the middle of the night So to get back to those John goes to the basement at some point that morning when he did his 1997 interview His best guess was like maybe it was sometime around or before 10 a.m. But he goes down He doesn't report finding anything to detective art or any of the other officers Now no one made know of the time when 10 o'clock came and went and there was no communication from the kidnapper like they said in the note There were calls throughout the morning I mean at least three according to detective on support and each time John would run to the phone He went out to the call but each time it was just some well-meaning friend checking in and like word was spreading at this point
Now Linda aren't kept paging for backup She had picked a good number of people out of the house by this point officers the victim advocates But all of the family friends were still there and it was a hard scene to control But page after page she was getting no response and when she tried to phone in she was told that everyone was in a meeting That's what she said her good morning America interview So it's just she's not getting the help that she needs and as more time passed Linda Aren't felt like she needed to keep John's mind occupied by 1230 She makes a note that he seems to be isolating himself and just kind of Staring like so she's like I got to give him something to do So after conversation with one of the family friends fleet white she suggests to John that excluding John Benet's room He should check the house top to bottom see if there's anything even missing John took the instruction to heart But he decided instead to search bottom to top at 1 p.m. He went for the door to the basement with flea close behind him and within five minutes Everything was chaos there was screams fleet was bounding up the stairs and detective aren't made it to the doorway in time to see John Coming up the final few steps like holding John Benet by her waist
Her body was already stiff with rigor her head was turned to one side and her arms were above her head with some kind of like White string or core row kind thing hanging from one of her wrists. Just like to aren't told John you like put John Benet down by the front door She said that her lips were already blue But she knew she was said but she still checks for a pulse anyway But she was cold the touch when she touches her so when it aren't moved On his body to another spot on the first floor and John asked to cover her up with a blanket Which she let him do which is more contamination This is like the worst case scenario here because it's not just the blanket like John held her at some point Like he's like laying on the floor and when Patsy comes into the room She laid on top of her while she's crying right like literally She's like praying to Jesus like asking him. I think the line is like you raise Lazarus like please raise my baby So you to your point like you have all of this contamination happening But Linda aren't called 911 telling them like I need an ambulance I need a corner like whatever like the delays and getting people here Like you have to get people here now She called again when they still hadn't come a few minutes later And then again after she saw an ambulance drive past the house
So this is like the Murphy's law of crying scenes everything that could go wrong was going wrong But now it's time for everyone to get out Ramses and friends included so while search war was being obtained for the house And John Bade was sent off for autopsy detectives tried to speak more with the family One detective was sent to go talk to Burke who basically just told him like everything in our house was normal Like our parents were abusive there weren't any arguments on or leading up to Christmas day So like nothing meaningful from him and that evening Linda aren't another detective went to speak with John Ramsey They were staying at a friend's house and by the time Linda got there There were even more people that had come to be with them They had more friends even the family doctor dr. Buff was there and sometimes he's called the family doctor sometimes he's called John Bade's pediatrician it might be like a little bit of both he'd given passive value And so Linda didn't see her when she came by but she did get to talk to John for about 40 minutes And it's worth noting that she talked to John during her time at the home as well Like so she and others had gotten the initial story of the day like or days leading up to John But he's dead and John points to the fact a lot when I talk to him because if you know this story You'll know that a big part of the narrative is the fact that the family they said they didn't cooperate
They didn't talk to police for a long time But John points to this and he says look yes We did we talk to them in our home and in our friends home and that is true And it is also true that they stopped cooperating after that 40 minute meeting and here's why so according to John Ramsey He told me he had gotten a call within the first like day or two we're talking to 26 27 from the person He told me who ran his HR at his company and they told him like hey I have this inside source telling me that the police are looking at you and Patsy for this you need to lawyer up Well advice taken because of the friends who were sitting alongside John Ramsey that evening when Linda had come during that Like 40 minute conversation was a guy named Mike Bynum Mike was John Ramsey's corporate counsel at his company So when police had left that night like after that 40 minute thing They suggested a formal sit down with the ransys obviously tensions were high Patsy was currently incapacitated and the majority of their interactions had been when they thought that John But he was a person like there was plenty more questions that needed to be asked by police
Which I agree with like at least everything that made it into the reports about the conversations They had in those early days when they were speaking. It's pretty surface level I mean we get some like immediate people that they suspect Does anything in the note stand out to them like who has keys to the house etc But if they were going to find out who kills John Bynay, they were gonna have to go a few layers deeper So Linda suggested let's do this sit down at the station on the 28 But either in that moment or maybe later, it's not totally clear from Linda's report It seems like Mike put the kabosh on that and listen like we got a rule for a reason right like always get a lawyer But this is the beginning of a decades-long battle between the ramsys and I think police Question mark, but like who is behind what in this case as you'll come to see is pretty convoluted So the Ramsys don't go talk to police on the 28th They do have a closed memorial service that day for Jean-Bynay in Colorado before they leave town Which I knew happened but it was that soon? Yes So John Ramsey says that they wanted to go back to Atlanta where their support system was
I mean they'd only just moved to Boulder like a handful of years before this like in 91 because his company had gotten bought out by Lockheed so he says that he's a lot of Atlanta as home Like they always had planned to move back and like that's where they were planning to bury Jean-Bynay the same cemetery as her older half Sister who had died in a car accident a few years before and interestingly about his company like that bought access graphics lucky John raves about them like you'll see that in my sit down with him But one of the things that they did after Jean-Bynay's death was they had offered John a company plane to take him to Atlanta So the company plane takes him to Atlanta 29th 30th goes by 31st is Jean-Bynay's funeral and then the first All media help, it's loose in a move that John Ramsey himself will later call up a stake He and Patsy decide to go on CNN I feel like it's like one of the most famous parts of this case that you can like Yeah, no, they've had a formal sit down with police But they have this sit down with the media and it rubs people all of the wrong ways Yes Ramsey you found the note. It was a handwritten note three pages. I
Didn't um, we couldn't read the whole thing. I I just Got an up. We were on our it was the day after Christmas and we were going to go visiting and it was quite early in the morning And I'd gotten dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some coffee And we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas and I always come down that staircase and I'm usually the first one down and And The note was lying across The three pages across the run of one of the stair Treads and it was kind of dimly lit. It was very early in the morning and I started to read it and it was addressed to John said mr. Ramsey and It said we have your daughter and I you know, it just was it just wasn't registering and I I I may have gotten through another sentence like
We have your daughter and I don't know if I got any further than that And immediately ran back upstairs and pushed up in her door and she was not in her bed and I screamed for John And John you've subsequently read the note. Was there anything in there that struck you in any sense? Well, no, I mean I read it very fast. I was out of my mind and It said don't call the police you know that type of thing and we told Patsy called the police immediately and and And I think I ran through the house a bit He went to check our son to say he was a friend. She sleeps in here And we just were we were just frantic the police said a couple of days ago to assure Other residents a boulder. There is no killer on a loose here. You can be a sure everything is under control
Do you believe it's someone outside your home? There is a killer on the list. I don't know who it is I don't know if it's a he or a she That if I were a resident of Boulder, I would tell my friends to keep keep your babies close to you You know America has just been hurt so deeply with them this the tragic things that have happened the young woman who Drove her children into the water and we don't know what happened with the O.J. Simpson and I mean America is Suffering because they they have lost Faith in the American family We are a Christian God fearing family We love our children. We would do anything for our children
So the same thing it was actually a lot quicker than I had my head I don't know why like growing up. I thought this was like this like long special where they gave it down Yeah, I was statements about everything But I feel like a part that you heard about the note was like honestly the most detailed that we got I think in total it ends up being like I think I heard this and I think I heard this again an anchor say like 40 minute thing But there were other like little things here and there but mostly Overall it was the Ramsey's opportunity to let the public know that they were unhappy with the direction of the investigation They didn't think that the Boulder Police Department had the right resources allocated to the case And so they were gonna be putting together their own investigative team and offering up a reward So did you ask John why they agreed to do something like this? Well, just to be clear They didn't agree to like some incoming ask like John had a friend who knew the president of CNN So they really made this interview happen But John said something this was one of the more interesting parts of our interview about why they decided to do this in the first place And listen, I have heard this guy talk a lot. I've read his books. I've seen the interviews that he's done
I mean his life story is drilled into him like word for word He has had a lifetime of people probably asking him the same questions over and over and he gives the same answers over and over because he's consistent And in the past what I've seen or read is that he talks about how his friends thought that they should go on They should tell their version of events that they should defend themselves And what he told me still was that his friends were the ones really pushing the interview But the reason behind why was different? The night sky may look endless, but its secrets could be closer than we think because in this universe you're never truly alone I'm Evangentile and I'm her sister Rasha Pecorero every Friday on So Supernatural We investigate alien encounters haunting tales of the unknown and cosmic mysteries that defy explanation Ready to discover what's out there listen to So Supernatural wherever you get your podcasts Okay, so in our sit down John Ramsey told me that his friends wanted him to go on CNN to protect Boulder
What does that even mean great question? I asked it and I didn't really get a totally clear answer and this is truly where when you're done with the episode I'm telling people you have to go watch the interview with him I don't YouTube he just kept saying the boulder was this weird place like this Bubble where reality was like outside of it like I know I'm not making sense like it didn't really make sense to me And I know in talking to them and like seeing stuff that they've done the past It doesn't seem like they liked the place all that much I mean it was a far cry from the conservative south where they come from either way I'm not sure that they nailed the assignment Remember like Patsy fully still did like a hide-a-jigid hideaway if we've got a killer like Roman The streets kind of things so like wasn't all pro-Boulder I've always wondered a little if she went like off book in that interview You can kind of tell she's still pretty medicated like yeah and listen like people have all of the thoughts on both parents but lots of thoughts on Patsy at the time and Here's what I say. I don't think that that interview was a fair one to read into too much like behavior on camera wise
Just because I mean you're talking a week out for when their daughter was murdered I don't know that I could even sit up straight like at that point like if it were me And so it might be one of the first times that Patsy was upright I mean she even said that like in those first few days She was so out of it that John and like her friends were literally having to feed her and to bathe her However the bathroom so demeanor like in my mind like throw this out the window But I do think we need to talk about the substance of that interview the words matter Especially when we're gonna get into some of the statements like the early statements from them about what happened on December 25th in December 26th Now like I said there wasn't a lot of substance in what we got But there were the first signs of cracks at least compared to what's an officer French's report for the 26 and detective arms report Which technically she actually hadn't written up yet when they go on CNN She actually writes up hers a week from that on January 8th So there's also you know how much is lost in her memory in that time between writing it So were there a lot of inconsistencies in the little that we did get no
So the only one that really pops out is when Patsy was talking about seeing the letter and then going to John Benet's room to see if she Was there in some of the early reports? There is a note that mentions her actually going and checking John Benet's room first and then going down the stairs and finding the note But there are no follow up questions like after this like interview is over and despite what they seemingly told CNN like told the reporter Because at the time they're like yeah, we are gonna go back to Boulder We're gonna work with police like we're gonna do anything we can to cooperate and help find our daughter's killer But that doesn't actually happen. Okay, but why not? I know so it's what eats people alive. No one can understand why they wouldn't just sit down with police and go through the facts that day In the days leading up to it as well like the intimate details of their lives like there is so much that police just don't know at this point And again, I will not I do see that that first day or two, you know Everyone's trying to figure out everything there But there's they did talk but there's this huge gap in what police know about their lives from that and I get it Like I want to shake them too and be like just like help them help you like even I don't remember Polly class her story
But her dad eventually speaks out about this and he's like I don't get it Like I did everything I could when my daughter was murder I begged them to give me a polygraph so that they could move beyond me But John will just tell you like till he is a blue in the face that they were following the advice of the lawyers that they had And why have these lawyers if you're not gonna listen to them? And by the way, their lawyer game has been up to by this point They're no longer just relying on Mike buying them to give them some advice According to John Mike connects him and Patsy to a law firm that could handle more like criminal matters So the law firm is called Hadn't Morgan and Foreman who like by the way if you Google them like in good news like what pops up is like interesting I can tell I was like oh okay, but that's neither here nor there The point is that these new lawyers are like the big guns They have big connections not just to the DA's office But to Colorado politics as a whole and so these lawyers passing John each have their own by the way Like they're eating looked at as a suspect so they have to have their own lawyers Their lawyers are basically like listen We know how this works the police are narrowly focused in on you They are gonna want to just like get you in a room and drill you until you break down
Which is why you have a lawyer in the room with you, but you need to go into the room You need to be there to be in the room and listen like I The lawyers always plan to be in the room, but they were particular about the conditions of getting in that room They wouldn't come to terms with police on what that was like what I got to John He was like well They wanted us to comment like late at night and like where the lawyers like they want you to be tired They want you to be like they know we're not sleeping and just letting you up for fairly Yeah, and he's like we offered to have them come in our home and they were like no only the police nation So they go back and forth trying to like come to terms with the conditions of this interview and that doesn't happen They don't agree to something until April of 1997 That is when police get the first real opportunity to sit down and drill in and then after that It would be another year before their next sit down that one didn't happen until June of 1998 And then there is just one more in the year 2000 now in all of that time It was a media Forensic I mean in an era of tabloids John Benet reigned supreme next in line only to a literal almost queen princess Diana
Like I don't know if you remember we talked about this being our origin story But it was all over all the time you could not go to the grocery store everywhere and not see her face It was all over the news even in a time when like we weren't paying attention to news Right and I think it like it garnered so much attention because it was this like perfect storm of Christmas time a beautiful child a rich family and then I mean put the pageant stuff on top of all of that like There were not only a plethora of images of John Benet Like being sold to tabloids and newspapers and magazines because these photographers had so much footage of her But the pictures they had her were of this little girl made to look like a young woman and people had a field day with it And even though there was plenty of talk of people asking the questions of whether or not the pageant You put John Benet in the path of someone dangerous which spoiler alert like yeah The conversations always kind of came back to the parents Yeah, but they made her do those passions which the family says is an inaccurate statement They're like no this is something she liked to do with her mom like Patsy was a former Miss West Virginia But all of the tabloids were all about the family so like the family was right in saying that they were out to get them
Yes, but like between first right like it's a very chicken and egg situation If they talk to the police and the police had cleared them would there would there be the tabloid that put them in the center of things Probably the center of things it definitely fed it like again I think that it started so early surprisingly early But yeah, I think it definitely fed the monster to be like they're not talking to police like oh they left Colorado and now they're in Georgia And things don't get better like the more time that passed the more contentious things God not just between the ransies and the police But also between the police and the DA's office like things are being leaked seemingly from every which way I mean it was so bad that at one point her autopsy photos were lead to the globe and those actually planned to print those autopsy photos And it's like the police they had become convinced that the ransies were involved And so it actually came out in a deposition at one point like years down the line that the police were giving Information to reporters to try and put external pressure on the ransies hoping that they would crack like they couldn't do the thing They wanted to do inside of the interrogation room so they were gonna have the media to it
So at this point it sounds like police are lying on other details almost like not just we don't like how the family is acting to support All these suspicions that they have correct because like during this time like things are getting leaked like I said You have the police department things are coming out of the DA's office to the Ramses had their own team So like who is leaking what like it is a messy messy game But let me actually give you a little bit of the lay of the land of some of the stuff that we were learning in the time after Jean-Beney's death I'm gonna go into her autopsy And it's a big part of it before I do that I think we just need to talk about some of the physical evidence at the house some of the observations that were made because I think All of that like was informing police's opinion on a situation very early on right?
So one of the big ones one of the ones that the Ramses say kind of like defines the case is that police just didn't like how they were acting Linda aren't I'll talk about her probably a lot in this episode She was the first detective there that day and she does this like one really infamous interview with Good Morning America in 1999 And the interviewer asked her like how was John that morning and she just keeps saying cordial and she's like okay But cordial was I mean if the only words you say cordial cordial so she didn't like how he was acting now John tells me like I'm Told everyone like I was trying to keep my wits about me like I don't like Patsy was deeply upset like she was just in the room with Her friend she's laying down she's crying. He's like I had to like go into I was like I truly I understand a little bit I look at me and my husband and we're very different that way where I think Eric Would be the one like in the chair crying laying on the floor and I'm gonna be like okay I'm gonna get the money I'm gonna get this like I'm lining everything up to be like what can I do to fix this situation I can't just sit here Yeah, John's a CEO of a company like I see him I see him going in that way But the other thing that Linda talks about is that they're like in separate rooms the whole time
So she just found that strange and people have like weighed in over the years like put their own spin on it I don't like I don't know that you could say one way or another that means anything like I think people could say conclusively But she just felt it was strange that like Patsy's in one room crying again John is like over here in action mode But in this giant house in a giant house, but she I think she expected them to be like units Yeah, a unit and comforting each other but that's not what she saw that day Which I think played into the belief stuff first day The other thing that gets talked about a ton and that she really and I think officer and a lot of people there that they honed in on Was the fact that so John had just been like freshly showered when he had just gone out of shower went passing me that 911 call And so he he's fresh in the morning She's like fresh makeup, but she's also wearing the same clothes that she'd worn that night before so They say it depends on who you talk to right like they thought it was really weird that at five something in the morning She's got full hair and makeup, but wearing the same clothes. I don't know what to make of that I'll tell you like completely honestly I went to dinner with John Ramsey and I entered in the next day and I wore the exact outfit like I'm not even intentionally I did realize it until later but like Throwing on the same thing to me is not a big deal everyone says oh well
You know Patsy was so into her image and like there's no we should have done that They were about to get on a flight to go to Michigan. So maybe she was just like it was like the holidays Like I would wear the same outfit. Yeah, um the makeup she says and she is from the south She's she was born with Virginia. They spent so much time in Atlanta She's like my mother drilled it in a you do not leave the house like unless you're fully done Which I like I met people like that too, so but people will read and be like she just never had the chance to go to bed that night So like it was odd to the people there that first morning now. I also told you that first responders They didn't notice any sign of forced entry in their initial reports But there was a broken window in the basement which I don't get how that's just missed Not everyone did miss it. I'm gonna have to come back to that
Let me get into people's like stories and statements for now what we need to know is like the window was broken But it wasn't broken recently so there wasn't glass all over and John had apparently broken it over the summer Like he's like no that's why there's no glass like I broke it when I got locked out of the house And they thought they had asked their housekeeper's husband or something that got to fix it But there must have been some kind of confusion or miscommunication the window didn't get fixed So I think they view it as like oh, this is a you know It's a perfect thing to like if someone were scoping out their house to say like here's a broken window You can easily get access to the home, but it wasn't something that was done necessarily by an intruder And the other thing they point to is there's also this hard shell suitcase that was supposed to have been right under the window That they're thinking someone used to maybe get in or get out and then there's the note The Rams used to this point like more than the broken window They point to the know as proof that Jean-Beneh was kidnapped They're basically like listen if it looks like a duck if it quacks like a duck like it's probably a freaking duck Like we have a ransom note We probably have a kidnapping but there were things about this note that even really early on police were finding odd The first thing is like they end up concluding that the note was written on
Patsy's notepad with a pen from inside the house Like I guess John and Patsy each had like their own notebooks for phone messages or whatever But they determined that it was from Patsy's one that the paper came from And what's interesting is that the pad of paper and the pen were put back like they were put away They wasn't just like left out, but they were like put back in different places Now when they made this connection about it being Patsy's notepad They also found out that there was a first attempt at writing the note before the writer started over So there is a page that starts out mister and misses and then there's like a line like it's gonna start Ramsey But that's it like they call this everyone calls it the practice note But it just says mister and misses are and then we know the final note is just addressed to mister rooms Right now It's already a little such that this thing was written with items inside the house because I think what everyone starts thinking is like this person didn't come prepared like usually in kidnapping cases You see them if they're gonna leave a note that's like something they come with If you're gonna hold someone for ransom, you should probably have the ransom note Yeah, yeah, and if not when they look at like the the sheer amount of words here two and a half pages I think I heard someone say it would take someone like 20 minutes to write this thing
They're like when would they have done that now the Ramses think that this person is intruders Snuck into their house while they were at a Christmas dinner earlier that night was like sitting there laying in wait For everyone to like go to bed and they said like oh we think it was written then Which gives the person like hours ample amount of time But it also like doesn't fit with a lot of like what we'll come to know if the goals should just like get her out of the house We know that she's found with everything done to her inside the house So if you if you pre-wrote that note It like something about that doesn't add up But then if you wrote the note afterwards that also doesn't make sense because why would you like hope that there's a notebook and a pen readily available for you to And 20 minutes and also like she's dead right like so What was the point of the ransom note for an intruder if they were going to leave her deceased in the basement And beyond like when the note was written the contents of the note were super weird to me So for starters, it's like really focused on john. I know that like as you're reading it I know you probably say that a million times but like Everything is about john and his business and even his role in the business and it's like john
Make sure you get enough like sleep john make sure you do this john your dog like Which if it is about john in the business then like the you know the ramsies have said there's like this sexual component to jonbene's death that we're gonna get into But like if it's about that then that part doesn't line up And like I said there's a lot of them in the note of mentions like make sure you get some sleep Make sure you there's like this weird sense of like if you want her earlier just get the money earlier and we'll figure this out It's really has really strange the way that it focuses on them like I don't care is the right word, but it's like if this isn't it doesn't make sense Like nothing about the notes makes sense And then there are all of these quotes that when people have like gone through and really like broken it down all of these quotes from movies where kidnappings happens and So it's like is this a movie?
But surely someone's not like going through watching movies as a writing this if they broke this in a house in 20 minutes or a couple Hours, whatever it is and finally no one knows what the sbtc is like There are theories out the wazoo about what it could be. I've heard saved by the cross I've heard rumors that where john ramsy was stationed in the navy in the philippines that there was like some it's like some military faction acronym Yeah, which then they're like oh is that foreign faction? But like that's never been proven so people can have and honestly like again The stuff people can come up with like is pretty wild lots of wild theories But in almost 30 years there is no conclusive proof about what that is connected to and the other thing we don't know Is this amount of money? It's so Specific a hundred and eighteen thousand dollars not a hundred and a hundred fifty in like and split two in like different bills And john was like I mean they were kind of loaded they could have asked for way more you could ask for it like I don't know like I bought 180 so it why not half a million a million dollars 10 million like we're even lower at like a round number of like
$100,000 like the 18 the 18 is so weird rose me off so badly and it's kind of almost like the sbtc They were people are like oh it's a bible for like it's a proverb or something 180 like you can anything with like the number on is 18 and there are 118 people will like drill in on the thing that I think most people believe or at least they think is like The most relevant information is that it comes out and john and patting the early days are like there's no significance to that number for us Like we don't know what it is. Please end up finding out that john ramsey's bonus That year for his company was a hundred and eighteen thousand dollars that exact amount Yeah in like some change like about like the lump sum the big number the weird a hundred and eight thousand dollars and He says yeah, maybe that's it the interesting thing is so I think what gets mixed up a lot like for people Is that they're like oh that was his christmas bonus. He got that in december like everyone must have known It actually was issued to him. He says in like january or february of 1996 So it had been the whole year But he said that that bonus was like a line item on all of his pay stubs
So if somebody were like going through documents in their house like they would have seen that and I asked him Was there evidence of somebody who's like gone through documents in your house and he said he says no But that doesn't mean that that didn't happen and it's kind of like his best theory of if it's this number This might be how someone would have found that exact yeah specific number the police would say Well, no one need to find it someone in your home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so They have all this weird stuff in the note and then they start getting handwriting samples from people in the family trying to find out who wrote this They got a few actually from patsy and everyone is ruled out except patsy. That'd be very clearly They don't say it was her handwriting They just say that she can't be excluded or they can't rule her out Which is like a very important distinction well and the language itself felt like her if i'm remembering like her interviews Right like it's kind of flowery over the top like they link towards like hence and I was like who that's a word like that stuff that she would say though Right not words actually invented like lots of people know those words But there is this like strange juxtaposition in the writing where some of the words are actually like spelled wrong
And then you have words like attache with like the little like mark accent over it Yeah, and they're so they're like oh someone must have like spelled other words wrong intentionally Which kind of fed into this idea of oh this reason it wasn't real like it was a kind of staging of some sort But like fun facts like I also spelled the word attache wrong when i was writing like this story out So like I would be floored if you hadn't I wouldn't you I was just gonna say like so But I also like I know words that are outside of my normal vocabulary and then like I can't there's some basic words like I can't spell hard Like it's just I'm like fooling anyone I also say that like you would be able to tell the difference if you and I wrote can pull like the same things That's what you use completely different ones. Yeah, so to get back to it though There are a lot of strange things about the no But there are other random things around the house that if you really want to go down this rabbit hole You can spend days so like I mean there's a baseball bat outside There's a rope in another bedroom of the house But the important thing like none of it is forensically linked to the crime at least not there hasn't been to the public So for the sake of keeping people with me like we've still got a lot a lot of room here
Like a lot of a episode to go. I want to move to the autopsy So when Jean Benet sounds she had what is described as a garat like device tied around her neck using white like roper cord or some kind of like substance And then the broken off handle of a paintbrush now garage grow whatever like that is the word that gets used all the time It's the only reason I know what that is it's like this is not a case But it actually isn't a garage that got used I don't know If it matters, but it feels like with this case the devil is in the details So for accuracy sake what they're actually at least when I was looking at a garat is like some kind of like string cord rope chain Whatever and like two Candles on the end what was actually used in japanese case was a white cord that was tied around her neck It was fastened in the back and it was fastened to that broken end of the paintbrush And I think the thinking was that or if people are still trying to call it a garage is that maybe you could like twist the paintbrush And then that would tighten it But investigators said that it was tied more like a noose than it was any kind of garage and particularly
They've made note that the knots weren't especially complicated Now the brush itself is from inside the house like a lot of the other stuff we're finding And we find out that it came from patsies art supplies So she had been taking painting glasses at the time at the local university So she had this little like carrier bucket thing full of stuff like that Now what wasn't obvious in the ransi house that morning that she was found But what would become clear when her autopsy was done is that along with having this cord around her neck She also had suffered severe blunt force trauma to her head like they're quite literally when you see the pictures There's like a chunk of her skull that is like caved in and then there's like eight inch crack across her skull as well So I was never really clear like which one of these things was her cause of death though Yeah, so the autopsy report says it was just a combination. Do they know which one is first?
I don't know. So I think at first you need to know that the rope around her neck Like if you see the pictures that got released It's like embedded in there like they mean looks like somebody truly tied it's so tight But it actually wasn't tight really tight So like just like the bindings I mentioned that were loose on her wrist the cord I think initially around her neck probably was as well because in the autopsy report There is a note that even though she's got the external wounds There is no internal damage to her neck which you you would see if there was like severe strangulation if that makes sense So it's possible that maybe her body like got swollen after death or like as she was dying Like and it made it look so much tighter, but she was definitely alive when it happened Yes, so yes So she definitely did get choked in some way because we have external signs of her being choked like so we've got abrasions We've got petite keel hemorrhage on her neck and her eyes and her face which all that makes sense But I still don't I'm not seeing what came first. I say like really the only two options are either
She was being lightly choked But again the choking was not the thing that was gonna kill her because we don't see those internal injuries She was being lightly choked and she either still has the cord around her neck or it's taken off and then she's put back on Or like I said, it's just left on or she is hitting the head and then it is put on and if she's swelling that caused a choke Those are really are only two options Either way the hit in the head was so severe that even the light choking whether it was someone doing it or just the cord being on It contributed to her death in conjunction with the head wound So there seems to be a consensus from a number of people that the asphyxiation happened like 45 minutes after the hit And it really is like a 40s who believe this on the Ramsey camp They had this investigator loose smit who really reaches a different conclusion He thinks she was hit in the head after she was choked and that the choking was done as part of a sexual act Now I mentioned this briefly but when John was bringing Jambinee upstairs when he first found her in the basement There was some about like white cord same stuff that's around her neck is like around her wrists or her hand just one of them
And he says that they like her they were like bound together But like it's only left on one and it's pretty loose like the knots themselves were loose like a lot of people who looked at this Like it wouldn't have actually like kept her hands on her right so again the people who look at this like a staging They'll say this is more proof that it wasn't to actually restrain her This was something done after the fact but could the knots have gotten loose another way like we look at a scene that we know is so severely contaminated She wasn't left in the place that she was found I don't know now she also had a piece of tape over her mouth And when John found her he'd actually ripped that off and he leaves it in the basement He brings her upstairs and it's left in the basement along with the white blanket that was covering her And then one of the things that I never knew in this case was that along with the white blanket There was a Barbie nightgown and I don't know what it means But all accounts it's not what she was wearing that evening. It doesn't seem like it was soil No, it's like clean dirty like was it did they go up to her to get like where was it?
Was it like a shuffle there maybe with the blanket that they brought down like nobody knows It just kind of this weird piece that I can't quite make sense of but there's a Barbie nightgown down there too So the nightgown I said wasn't what she was wearing what she was wearing was a white shirt with a silver star She had worn that shirt to a Christmas dinner that they went to the night before that's where they were before they all came home and went to bed She was also wearing white long john pants and under those she was wearing a pair of underwear And this is like such a weird part of the case the underwear that she was wearing was a size 12 Which for like my non-kid people usually like the general rule is like you can usually go size by age like obviously every kid's different But pretty close like may is six she wears an eight Yeah, and in semanate was like a pretty average like height weight for her age So like a six-year-old to be in 12 underwear They were the they even said like when they when they were taking up her clothes and you're on top They were huge on her And the other interesting thing is that her long johns and her underwear were both stained with urine Mostly on the front of the garments Which indicates to me that she was probably laying face down when her bladder was empty Because I think it's especially important when you think about the fact that that cord was tied around her neck was tied in the back
Did they find urine anywhere else in the house like if she was laying down and I've seen the pictures of the underwear and the pants And they're saturated if she's laying down and piece her bladder that much to just like drench her clothes It should be somewhere there should be a little puddle somewhere theoretically yes But I can't say for sure based on the stuff that we have I told you I mean a lot of stuff that we have is because stuff got leaked not because it doesn't like there is the other stuff that exists I can tell you that the sheets that were on her bed were not stained There is some conjecture that maybe there was a possible urine stain on the carpet outside of the wine cellar room that she's actually found in But I can't source that to actual police documents I don't know if that's true and of course folder police department at the prosecutor's office like they wouldn't talk to us for this episode So all in all I don't actually know but it feels like we should be able to determine where in the house that happened and the where that happened feels Really important like if we can't find where that means that someone cleaned it up Right which adds like this whole other element to this already really confusing case
Now the other things I get discovered that are of interest are the following in her autopsy So there was vaginal trauma but not from penetration like there It was more like an irritant or like the skin cells and what they found is I believe there were traces of the actual the broken paintbrush What they determined is that that paintbrush had been inserted interestingly though There's like that that they know happened like at the time of her death But the autopsy also notes some wounds or some trauma that is more chronic and chronic doesn't mean it's happening for a very very very long time Over to over the chronic means before like that And so there's at least some evidence that seven to ten days before her death something else happened But you can't say what and anyone who tries to say what we do not know But there is some vaginal trauma to this young girl that happened seven to ten days before her death So they're not sure if she was abused No one can say that like definitively definitively there have been a number of experts who came in like the when boulder police had this case
They brought in a number I think it was like five or six experts that said that based on what they saw from the autopsy report They would categorize that as abuse what we also find out in all this time is not necessarily the autopsy But we find out that john binae had been having issues with soiling herself So she was I mean patsy still had like pull-ups in the house She was still wedding the bed. She even soiling the bed and Patsy would say like listen like that's this happens kids have accidents She said that her stepdaughter one of john's from his previous marriage did the same thing till she was like eight apparently work had the same things So patsy was like there's just kids But people who do want to say that she was abused will point to this as like more evidence of that but no like there is no definitive proof that she was being Sexually abused in the time leading up to it like there's but clearly something happens Like like in the seven to ten days and this but we don't know what that is like it It's so much of this case. We will never know what was happening in that house on that night or the days before or John James doing so many things outside of the home, too I also want to make it clear that if there was abuse which I think there's evidence of and something that I talked to john about actually in our interview
I was like the proof is like it feels like the proof is there but that doesn't mean it has to be a family That's like she came to contact with so many people so I know I just like what on on on but there's no like proof Abuse but a lot of experts who believe she had been to go back to the evidence So there are some fibers that are found as well They're found on the sticky side of the tape that was on her mouth some that are found like in the ligature like knots though we got the hey, you know, I don't put her hands or her neck but there's some found in the ligature and Some that were on the white blanket as well and they are consistent the police say with a jacket that patsy was wearing the night of the 25th Additionally, there is one mention of some black fibers that were found in her underwear that they say were consistent with a wool sweater of johns But this is a super important caveat. Hey, this is only thrown out in patsy's Interview and we know like the person interview here says this we know that you can straight up lie in those right So I don't know if this actually is true because I like it's not anywhere else as fat
I don't know if like the fibers were actually in the underwear I don't know if if they were if they actually got tied to john I have no idea and the family lawyer actually makes note later on a different one He says that like just saying those things to use the picture because he's like hey when you talk about the coat fibers the shirt fibers He's like how many other things did you try and test to match it first of all and you're not even talking about all the other fibers that were Found that aren't tight any right there work only these like two or three fibers Right could be a lot in there and also people do laundry Yeah, and he's like so just to just say those couple of things really skews the record as he says So you've got a lot of physical evidence, but like the thing I think everyone wants to talk about we talk about this case There is foreign DNA exactly so we've got foreign DNA Under her nails her right and her left in her underwear and on the cord around her neck We know john bane was the main contributor in all of it in 1997 there was an indication of an unknown contributor But the testing was super basic back in 97 Yeah, it was so basic that what I can tell from like what I've seen is that we're dealing with like an allele that is off out of like multiple markers
So they were like far from a real profile that we could do anything with back then But one of the things that really frustrated the family and made them feel like this was targeted against them is that no one was sharing That they were ruled out from that in those early days, which seems pretty significant Like everyone's looking for an excuse of like it almost feels like they were trying like right it off Like how can it still be them and not be this and instead of just being like oh like was there someone else in the house Like all the put your theory aside like the question is was there someone else in the house? And I think that's the question everyone should be asking and then the final thing that we have as far as evidence Or at least that I'm gonna get into is the pineapple I was waiting for you to get to the pineapple So the pineapple there are remnants of pineapple found in her stomach if you know, you know If you don't that's why you have me But to understand why the pineapple becomes important like or why it's a big deal We have to go backward a little bit So now that you have the physical evidence like the stuff that we're working with most of which was getting again I just remind you getting leaked like little bit by little bit to the public over weeks and months All during the time when the Ramses are lawyered up
I want to go into the actual statements that we get so the stuff that police say that they were told on December 26 The statements given to authorities by john and patty in the months after that fateful day and even in the years that followed So there are two reports that have been leaked from first responders that I found one is from officer friend She's the first guy that shows up at the house that morning and the other is from detective linda aren't Let's start with friend since he was the first one who was there that day So actually I have if you wouldn't mind just like reading I think it's the report says I spoke with mr. Miss Ramsey while birk continued to sleep Miss Ramsey told me that she had gone into jambinees room at about five forty five hours To wake her in preparation for a short family trip the family was to take later that day She found jambinees room empty and then discovered the note as she walked down the stairs. She immediately called police Okay, so then just go to that so there's like there's no distraction. I'm making it tight for a minute They told me they had spent christmas night with the redacted and that they arrived home at 2200 hours Miss Ramsey said that jambinees and birk's bedrooms are separate and are located on the second floor of the three-story house with the master bedroom on the top floor
Jambinees bedroom has an access door to the second floor porch, which was locked and undamaged Okay, so if you wouldn't mind now, I got linda art Okay, linda says officer french told me that when he arrived he met with patsey ramsi jambinees mother Patsy was very upset and distraught and it was difficult for officer french to obtain information from her officer french also spoke with jambinees father Officer french learned that the ramsi family had been at a friend's house on the late afternoon and evening of December 25th Jambinee and her brother birk went to bed shortly after the family returned home John ramsi had read to jambinee after she'd gone to bed and before she went to sleep Jambinee had last been seen wearing a red turtleneck and white long underwear Patsy woke up this morning and discovered the suspected ransom note at the bottom of the spiral staircase Patsy originally thought that the note may have been left by the housekeeper Officer french has been told that the ramsi family had been planning to leave early this morning for michigan The ramsi family has a home in upper michigan after Patsy discovered the note she went to jambinees bedroom Patsy discovered jambinee was missing Okay, so then go to the next door where she talks about actually being a little bit patsy I did ask Patsy a few questions and was able to receive some information
The following is information I received from patsy Patsy has gotten up on the morning of December 26th 1996 and had gone downstairs from her bedroom to the kitchen Patsy used the back i.e. west stairway The back stairway consists of a spiral staircase leading from just outside jambinees bedroom to the northwest corner of the first floor of the house At the bottom of the spiral staircase patsy discovered a three-page handwritten note The note had been written on legal pad size paper patsy said she originally thought the note might have been left by her housekeeper After patsy looked at the note and read it she ran to jambinee's bedroom jambinee was missing Okay, so it keeps going after that just basically like we're painting a lot of the stuff that we already know like they had an alarm They didn't set the alarm like I talked about their housekeeper a little bit who she had a key early on When jambinee was still just like a missing person Please were asking about anyone who like had access to the house And then if you want to keep going so Linda talks to john John Ramsey told me that he and his family had been at a dinner party held at the redacted home White on the afternoon and evening of December 25th 1996 John patsy burt and jambinee had returned home at approximately 2200 hours John told me that patsy and burt immediately went to bed john had read a book to jambinee tucked her into bed
Then john went to bed john said he went to bed at approximately 22 30 hours for anyone who's mind doesn't work like mine 10 and 10 30 I don't work in military time. I like every time I'd be like backwards from 24 Anyway, so it keeps going i'm gonna get for anyone who's like as deeply obsessed as i am like i'll have all this info in the show notes You can go like read the folding for yourself, but for now you have what you need to know So that's what police have from the day of about like them getting home going to bed finding the note There's a bunch more that they talk about like I don't want to give you the impression that the ramses only said like three words to them Like they answered all the questions that they had day of but police were expressly told to treat them like victims in the early Not like suspects now, you know after this might buy them steps in tells john like listen I want to help you out. I want to put someone like in place because like you really need representation in a criminal matter like this And you know, he's like jesus like buying them jesus take a wheel like go ahead Now we know that they don't sit down for a formal interview They leave for atlanta and then they did that disaster of an interview on cnn
Which if john's insider source was wrong about police like initially looking at them Like they definitely were now right because some of the stuff in that interview conflicted with the little information that police already knew and again Why even talk to cnn in the first place to protect boulder right hashtag protect boulder and which is like when i'm sat down with john It was like that's weird right and he's like yeah, no, it's definitely weird but to protect boulder I don't know so anyways, do you heard some of the clips like they don't go into a ton of detail But they do say a couple of things that stick out and I thought that maybe we could just like read it a little bit Mrs ramsy you found the note was it a handwritten note three pages? I didn't I couldn't read the whole thing. I had just gotten up We were on our it was the day after christmas and we were going to go visiting and it was quite early in the morning And I got dressed and was on my way to the kitchen to make some coffee And we have a back staircase from the bedroom areas and I always come down that staircase And I'm usually the first one down and then it was lying across the three pages across the run of one of the stair treads And it was kind of dimly lit it was just very early in the morning and I started to read it and it was just john
It said mr. Ramsey and I said we have your daughter and I you know it just wasn't registering and I I may have gotten through another sentence I can't we have your daughter and I don't know if I got any further than that and I immediately ran back upstairs and pushed open her door And she was not in her bed and I screamed for john john you subsequently read the note Was there anything in there that struck you in any sense and then john says well? No, I mean I read it very fast. I was out of my mind It said don't call the police, you know that type of thing and I told patsy call the police immediately And I think I ran through the house a bit we went to check our son checked our son's room Sometimes she sleeps in there and we just were we were just frantic And then there's another section that I have here that I just want to read I'll read again for john and you read for patsy To those of you who may want to ask let me address it very directly I did not kill my daughter john bay There have also been innuendos that she has been or was sexually molested I can tell you that those were the most hurtful innuendos to us as a family They are totally false john bonnet and I had a very close relationship I will miss her dearly for the rest of my life I'm appalled that anyone would think that john or I would be involved in such a hideous heinous crime
But let me assure that I did not kill john bonnet It did not have anything to do with this I love that child with my whole of my heart and soul We feel like there are at least two people on the face of this earth that know who did this And that is the killer and someone that that that person may have confided in The big thing that people took away from this were a couple of things One patsy says that she only read the first line of the letter Which is hard to understand because in the nine-on-one call she tells the operator How it is not at the very end of the letter sbtc victory And in one of the first reports she says that she was nervous Like remember when she was standing at the window she was nervous about like the car pulling up and being marked because The letter has had not to call the police But it doesn't quite make sense how she would have known that if she only read the first like liner tip She also talks about screaming for john and that's new didn't she say she called the police immediately or even In one version didn't she say she saw john but he was not in her bed before she even thought about her Right, so that's what's in the reports But I will say that when detective arm was kind of if you remember like that you read it in one of them
She's kind of rehashing with french told her it looks like in that version she saw the note first So some of the first reports might like there's something might be getting lost in translation I mean we talked about like you know, there's time in between there's the Ramsey's basically say like, you know There's so much in the initial reports that are just like straight up wrong like everyone's misremembering or saw things differently or heard things differently or like Misinterpreted stuff So the other thing that is interesting about what we learned from that little bit from sienna Is that there is no excuse for the pineapple that we know about Everything they say is they like get home go to bed there is no like snack later and granted This is just like a tidbit that we're getting but patsy goes to bed bert goes to bed john takes jambinee up reads her puts her to bed Always in like a passing out Yeah, and we got like in some of that from the early reports But it's we don't understand when that would have happened because they don't say like oh we got home in this happen And so like there it's just kind of left is a little bit of a mystery And so all of that to say that after they do the CNN thing police have their antenna up And they really want to sit down with them once they come back There's something weird that happens before they go back to boulder because they will go back to boulder
Like even though they never set foot in that house again. They have to go back So let me back up for a second remember how he told you that john's company gave them a plane to use to go back to a land I don't know like the company plane. Okay. Yeah, so I don't know who exactly was on it I don't have the manifest but in a 1998 interview with authorities patsy says that there is some kind of quote-unquote like scuttlebutt confusion or something Around fleet white so apparently he was planning to get on the plane back But he didn't and what she said I think I have like heard that it's important to read what she said So patsy says quote I picked up on something that fleet was not acting right And they were going to keep him from going on the private plane back to Atlanta Well, so I don't know what happened something happened He's not on the plane with the family to Atlanta But I know he makes his way out to Atlanta somehow and then it sounds like he loses his ever-loving mind Something happens, but I like I don't know what okay So fleet and his wife are staying with john's brother jeff it seems like and according to patsy Fleet kind of flips out on jeff like he at one point like grabs his collar gets upset about
Something and then jeff calls over to where john and patsy are saying and they're like he's like fleet's coming Do you have a gun and patsy says that her and berg and her mom like go to the basement They're trying to stay quiet and john and patsy's dad go handle this thing upstairs handle what though I don't end up following what's happening me freaking either so like everyone apparently comes out of this fine I mean like physically I know whatever altercation they had like is is over with but I don't know what happened Whatever it was about begins to fracture the friendship between the whites and the ramsies And has no one asked john and all this of course they are I asked about this What is it you I asked him and I'm telling you this one saying people go watch like in other places I've heard john say that fleet was upset that they did the cnn thing But in an interview john eventually does in 1998 with lusmet He says that fleet was the one who pushed him to do the cnn thing like the one who insisted on it He's the one who told him to go and like protect bolder well He didn't say that in 1998 like that was something he said to me But what he says is that fleet told them to do it because of what the media was saying about them that they needed to defend themselves
The protect bolder thing was again new to me. I don't know what it means But defend themselves protect bolder either way john kind of chalks up whatever this meltdown is to trauma like fleet Obviously knew the family super well. They were at his house for christmas dinner For goodness sake He and his wife were called over by patsy that morning when they knew john but he was missing It was traumatic for everyone and john says that fleet just isn't cool in her pressure He was more people who look down there when he found her But that still doesn't answer my question like what was he saying when he was flipping out Okay, so please do ask her right like because she was there But when she's asked by police about this for only explanation because she doesn't know But she just says I wasn't having that conversation What I know and like this this is a little hard for me to understand because i'm like But you're part of this like family like something is happening And it's hard for me to understand like you you're running to the basement staying quiet and that like you asked no followup questions Like after you came out of the basement and just like it's fine move on And like on one hand i'm like, I don't buy it for a second because that's not how I would respond on the other I have seen like more and more of I don't know the family dynamic like truly know the family dynamic
I think there's like a world that you and I grew up in where we saw a lot of like Um, what are all the words? So this isn't so like right like exact word, but like the dad husbands they're handling it Yeah, they're handling it and we don't need to worry about it Yes, so we don't ask any questions so seemingly that could be that could be what happened here because she's like that is not a conversation I had and what does john say about this though? Like the guy who was actually in the conversation had the conversation the conversation with you So lucia doesn't really ask him about the altercation or at least not what became part of like the transcript I tried to ask him but john says he doesn't remember he doesn't remember the exchange What words were said he also doesn't remember what fleet flipped out about at the next altercation they have when they get back to bolder I'm sorry. What is happening and how did I not know any of this?
I know so like the media that we got served really has had its own take right? Everyone just kind of talks about the things that fit their theory the police were doing it the dia was doing it the ramsies do it And I get it like I mean truly how far in are we right now? Like you literally can't talk about everything in this case unless you had a 400 part mini series Even like this episode. I don't feel like it's like a cover it uh paging deal yet the crime junkies Yeah, this big next season of counterclock is dominating Serious of that. I told you I'm trying to go a layer deeper I'm trying to show everyone that like to get to the bottom of who it is so much more complicated than you think it is There's like so much more than I think people think that they know and truly like this is not the end of the story But here is the main takeaway from today I don't think anyone should have a strong opinion anyway until you consume all of it And that is really hard to do so like I again as we're going through this keep an open mind even our episode won't be the end I'll be all but I'll get back to the facts. So they come back to bolder. This is after the funeral
I don't know who travels with who for sale and fleet might even leave early There's like this talk about how they didn't like how they were treated by everyone in Atlanta Like they were expecting them to act like things are fine or if it was just too formal like they were grieving I don't know but eventually everyone goes back to bolder. Oh, um starting to wait one more thing So um it's a weird fleet then so before we go back to bolder. So when patsy was telling authorities about this fleet altercation She said something that's set off like truly like fire alarms in my head The night sky may look endless, but its secrets could be closer than we think because in this universe you're never truly alone I'm yevon gente le and i'm her sister russia pekarero every friday on so super natural We investigate alien encounters haunting tales of the unknown and cosmic mysteries that defy explanation ready to discover what's out there Listen to so supernatural wherever you get your podcast Okay, so this is after flea is kept from getting on the plane But before he flips out and patsy's like hiding in the base of river
So patsy says that when they're in atlanta she sort of remembers persilowy whose fleet's wife standing in her mom's living room saying something like Well, I know what's going on if you would give me a few minutes of your time I could let you in on some things and patsy turns to her and she says pracilla How can you know so much? I'm the mother of this child and I know nothing So the person asking her interviewing her when she's like talking about this asked her what she was talking about and patsy's like I don't have a clue like, you know, I really wish I would have taken her up on the offer to like see what she knew but but what? What like we still have time here. What did pracilla know?
I don't know. We don't know our team tried to reach out to the whites like nothing back Maybe they would say that like they never even said that maybe they would say that whatever they said was taking out of context Maybe they would say what john says and nobody remembers. Surely police Chalked them at some point though, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah, and from everything that's been reported the whites are super cooperative They wanted to help in any way that they could you could help by telling us what you were saying to them when you were freaking out That seems like a really good place to start. I know and I like it had to have gotten asked and maybe there is a very vanilla answer
But bolder pats and super tightlift on the whites or honestly pretty much any other people that they interviewed who weren't the ramsies All the stuff that gets leaked are about the ramsies everything has a slant like I mean seriously no matter what side you take things are slanted And I feel like I'm dealing like I have a thousand puzzle pieces that I'm trying to put together And I feel like I'm still missing like 30,000 like no matter how much it's with this case Like we do not have all the information But I do think that part of the reason that patcy never went back and like got the answers from pracilla We would wander like I might go and get is because of this rich that forms between the families because according to patcy two more things happen And after that, I don't think they ever speak again So pracilla says that thing fleet has is meltdown and they're all back and bolder and it's strange because patsies Next thing she's like oh, I wasn't really pretty to it. It's kind of like the same thing I wasn't really pretty to this but she is there when it happens. It's not like she's even removed like she wasn't the basement before So her and john are meeting with their priest father and they're at the church and the three of them She says are like praying and fleet white burst into the office eyes wide He gets on his knees apparently has his business card and he's like literally like hanging over john and he says you know
What this is john you know what this means john you know what i'm going to have to do with this john I'm going to have to handle this my way john In fact he says he like keeps going on and on and and like she's asking fleet like what it is that in his hand And he hands with his business card and it's for someone like a journalist or something and there's a note on the back She said she can't recall word for word, but she says it's something to the effect of quote This is her her quote in the interview mr Way there's been some question as to whether it was you or don ramsey who removed the tape from john But he's now you know and about the sequence of the basement discovery because we had been talking about this wait They've been talking about the basement discovery. I don't know and like who pad and or when exactly I don't know they don't ask her Like she just kind of keeps going and they don't circle back to this and she says that fleet basically says they're after him and his family Now that he's gonna have to handle this his way like I said So She says he's like mannequin at this point and then the story just kind of fizzles like it's not clear how it deescalates I know father all like jumps in at some point, but I don't know how it ends I don't know what was said
I don't know what journalist it was like who gave a card who's asking these questions or like if that even was the question Well calling a whole poller journalist who gave a card to fleet white the cringegis kind of want to know some things I have a laundry list of people that I want to talk to like any of them are welcome to hit me up anytime after this episode So that was the one thing I showed her two things So patsy says that fleet tries to get face time with them one more time So by this point when the ramsies go back to bolder They kind of like hop around but they end up like settling in and moving in with some of their friends the steins Who weirdly like john called acquaintances before all of this but I don't know man like trauma bonding is real So like they become obviously much closer The patsy says that fleet goes to glenn steins office at colorado university and demands to see the ramsies again I don't know what's said. I don't know how it fizzles deescalates whatever but like that's that And I want to clear no one in the white family was ever considered suspects by any department by all accounts They've cooperated fully with the investigation and they have even been staunch critics of how the case was handled and have
They've actually fought legal battles trying to get documents like release that they feel would further the case or would bring more light to the case But for now in our story and with the ramsies the whites are the steins are in they're the new besties And it's interesting because it turns out what we learned when john and patsy finally do sit down with police in april 1997 and then again in june In the more 2000 is that the steins they may have been some of the last people to actually see john bene before she died Okay, so we're like eight hours into this episode Um, do you want to find me to get into more details about like the days like after 26th? I know I know you need backstory. I know I'm loving all of this. This is so much So i'm going to start with the 23rd on december 23rd The ramsies hosted a christmas party with like all of their friends even like family members of these friends who were like in town visiting So to the whites we have the fernies the steins the barn hills like all these kids it is big to do They hire sana to make an appearance the kids are decorating gingerbread houses everything was mary and bright at least we assume
But there's one weird thing that happens that night on the 23rd from the same house where 911 will be called in less than 72 hours Someone dials 911 on the 23rd on the 23rd According to an le times article the call was placed from the ramsies at 648 p.m But it was like a hangout call dispatchers tried to call back a few minutes later Nobody answered so then police sent an officer to the house. What happened great question I don't know the officer who was dispatched never filed a report Now I have heard that it was fleet white who made that call and there's like a number of like explanations around like going around like Oh, he was trying to like dial his mom is said to have been in the hospital at the time He was trying to like call and get some medication for her and miss dialed or something like that I asked john specifically about it and he's again like does not remember he says so filed that whole thing under like wtf It's just like it's weird and it's one of those we talk about this all the time like is it a coincidence that someone in the house calls 911 And then this happens or like are there no coincidences right? I don't know so the 24th nothing super notable happens
They go to church they go out to dinner they eat this place called pasta jays john knows the owner And then they go around look at christmas lights patty things that maybe they might have gone to the whites at some point Like they were by there they might have like stopped by for a little bit But no big deal they all go home good bed and everyone wakes up the 25th on christmas day Like any kids on christmas day they wake up first They like go and get the parents who want to open presents john but he got a bike and this like life size twin doll thing and work out in 10 to 64 hello 1996 Right and they eat this big breakfast as a family that they make and then in the middle of the day So they were planning to leave early the next morning It's been like the 26th right yeah So they're planning to leave the 26th to go to charlotte way michigan to spend christmas with johns older kids from another marriage So they were planning on flying private so john is like gonna go he's gonna check on the plane make sure things ready where charlotte way Uh so michigan so for my crime-jumping people do you remember um the episode we did on north fox island Of course, I remember like trafficking. Yeah like father Sheldon whatever um so north fox island is like charlotte way is like the main little town Okay, that's like the closest. Yes like the like a bay so now it's a crime-jacking context
So it's not like on the mainland but like it's still pretty hard to get to so like hence the private plane right So he's going to check the plane patsy's like finishing packing She's wrapping some gifts for all the kids to open in michigan some neighborhood kids come over at some point to play with jambinee and berk And everything's going well like in the evening they get ready to go to the white house for a christmas dinner patsy Once her and jambinee to match like black pants red shirt jambinee is not into it She wants to wear this like shirt shirt with a silver star six-year-old wins like if you have a six-year-old that is so true Yeah, um and so they go to the whites they have crab like that's really like the only like we know they eat crab for dinner So like it's interesting because not much has been leaped about this party like i mean there's no pictures I don't know what happens and like it's not a huge party for my understanding It's like their family christmas dinner that they had invited their aunties to like the year before and then this year So it just became kind of this little tradition, but it seems small and intimate ish So the family goes to dinner then they leave but they make some stops first patsy had gotten some gift baskets for other friends So they go to the home of the walkers first they drop off the gift basket patsy just like runs in whether the rest of the family stays in the car
Then they go to the steins what i was talking about they drop off the gift there patsy goes in for like 10 to 15 minutes She can't really remember if birk went in with her but like he might have because he has a friend or the science Have a kid that's like his age so like it would make sense if he didn't john doesn't remember for sure who in it or not Like everybody remembers if they've dominated they don't think so but whatever nothing notable They had one more shot there supposed to make another gift basket, but it was getting late They had to get up early in the morning, so they decided to just go home Now it's just a couple minute drive to their house from the steins and when they get there They say that jambonay was already like zonked out So as they're giving these like longer statements to police this is again where we get like no She was never awake and john read a story to her like she was asleep What they say john had to carry her up to her room He put her in the bed he took over coat took off her shoes And then patsy took over from there and she said she changed her out of her pants Like just put those long johns on and the whole time she's like johnny was so tired that she didn't even wake up at all Which like i've heard people like rumble about yeah, but i mean this literally happened to me yesterday May fell asleep in a car just in fully unbuckled her out of her seat carried her in later on heart bed
And she slept for another hour i fully like yet changed josey the other day and she was like zompt So like especially comfort like a party with friends and stuff like kids can get it snaps them Yeah, but when does the big like size 12 underwear get put on her and all of this i don't know It is so weird the underwear is like a big thing I can't explain because it seems like the underwear was originally bought for another family member like a young girl in the family Who would have been like a size 12? I've heard that maybe it was wrapped up like as a gift to take with them like as a present in the basement somewhere But then like oh, maybe john may decide she wanted them There's never like a good clear answer on why she's wearing them where they came from where they came from when they got on her or any of that So again question mark question mark So patsy put jambani down john is downstairs with burt because I guess he still wanted to play a little bit He had this toy or something that he wanted like put together dad was helping him with that for a little while patsy Finishes up some last minute things then she goes to bed She probably does her normal routine like brush her teeth wash her face whatever and then when john went to bed
He said she's already there that she you know, I don't know that she knows why he's asleep But he's like you don't like have an interaction She's down and I read for a little bit and then I fall asleep and then we didn't wake up until the morning So the big differences here now are that john bane is asleep when they get home whereas before we see early reports that she was awake That john read to her that's not the case anymore and the ramsi say and I said this before like every one the day of misunderstood Then they wrote their reports wrong that john didn't read a jambani that he read when he went And again people will be like so everyone who wrote a report got it wrong and they say like I don't know if information was flowing from one person to another Right. I was gonna say they take a lot of like transcription and using reports as references that might have been happening Yes, they say they have always been consistent that's not the case they don't know where they got that from Now the next morning john is the first one up but like before the alarm he took a shower Patsy wakes up then while he's like in the shower She throws on the same clothes we talked about this from the night before she puts on her makeup does her hair And then she goes downstairs where she finds the note and when she finds the note she calls for john
Berg is asleep the whole time and at some point john checked on him to make sure that he was there and okay But they again leave him to sleep till they knew what to do So you already know they call police even though the note says in the statement I do not call police john tells her to call the scene isn't preserved in any way And a little after one o'clock in the afternoon john finds john bane in the wine cellar Presumably she had been all along what always baffles me is how had no one looked in this room his wine cellar like the whole day There were so many people in the house and they were everywhere except for john minis room But this is one of like the great mysteries and it's potentially another example of murphy's law or like maybe not Maybe this is something that doesn't make sense I don't know so officer french admits that when he went and looked around the house like he saw that door But he saw that it was latched and he I don't know if it's because the latch was high or like what about it that he was like oh This wouldn't make sense for a little girl to throw through or something Doesn't even open it and look which is just like bananas to me Now i've heard fleet why even went down to basement at some point that day and looked around
He even oh he opened the door so more than french he actually opened the door to the room that they end up finding john bane in But doesn't see anything the one thing i'll say is john says um or like his old interviews It's like not clear he can't remember if he like turned on the light or if the light was or if i understand like in that moment Like that's not a detail i would remember So is it possible that fleet didn't turn it on john could also just like naturally like break instinct to lean over this which is his house Right and i think that like that sticks with me is i've heard it before that he'd made like a beeline for this wine cellar Like is yes and not true yes and no so he does when she says hey go look top to bottom He does go right for the basement I think he makes he goes to the broken window first I think where at least like draws fleets attention to the broken window and then he goes to the wine cellar But it is pretty immediate and here's the other thing that i can't explain So remember how a year ago when we started the strong story i told that john went to the basement like at some point that morning when he was looking around So he says that he goes down this is like a before or right about like 10 a.m So he says he goes down and he noticed the broken window and he said the window was like unlatched and open
And at first he says like slightly later reports it's like wide open But either way it's really strange because like he says later what he did is he just like latched it back up And then i mean i told you he comes up to the basement he doesn't say anything he doesn't say the window is broken he doesn't say the window is open Which like your daughter is missing at that point if you're looking for a point of entry or exit It's notable it's notable and i think that people wonder why he wouldn't bring that up in that moment But again you do so many things that don't make sense in the middle of trauma Now this window does end up becoming a huge part of the narrative later when the rams You have to go hire a team to look into the idea of an intruder because again They say that the police are only focused on them So there are a lot of strange things happening in this case that the media latches onto This is how we got so many of those wild tablet stories, which by the way Like i don't know if you noticed i ordered a bunch of these like on ebay Just because like i wanted to like go back and get a sense of like what what was a tone What was everyone saying um and it was kind of wild like i definitely wasn't allowed to like buy these
Oh, no we could see the cover is that the grocery store and that was it i could i showed you like i was looking at like the Fashion in here because we were never allowed to look inside the tablet I don't know what it's like when we buy my birdie when my mom always taped over a part of that She thought was too scandalous for us to watch and we thought it was gonna be so bad It was so much worse than our heads and we watched it and it was just a dancing that she had cut Yeah, that was it So like i said, sorry It's so interesting because like the store there's like no meat there They have like a wild headline and then like two interesting lines and then like a bunch of nothing So back it up like 17 different lines saying the exact same thing written slightly different just about cups that i like It's truly headline only and all of the headlines were mom this dad that and the tabloids were Freaking ruthless like they were following them they were harassing them They said or don told me that they had to like hide berk on the floorboard of the car just to like get him to school Like is nothing off limits. I mean I already told you about her autopsy photos getting released Earlier we talked about her like beddings at that got released because they ended up releasing her medical records Like someone leaked this girl's medical records to reporters in some way
And i like i don't want to go into like every single visit or not visit Point is like people are coming out of the woodwork and anyone with pictures or stories were like trying to just make a buck Some of them were fabricated some of them were true And one of them that has become a central part of the story is the fact that jambinee was having toileting issues And this information in particular i feel like kind of becomes the crux of detective steve thomas's theory He was very clear that he thought patsy was the one who killed jambinee His idea was that jambinee wet herself that night and everything else was done to like stage a cover up He even wrote a book on the case in like his theory of it the ramsi ended up suing him and his publisher over at face settle out of court Detective aren't had a different theory like she very much was suspicious of john Like she thought he had something to do with her death and like i think i brought up her good morning america interview already from 1999 cordial statement Yeah, right, so i don't need to rehash the whole thing i'm gonna link it out to mean all the source material
It is interesting to watch because she looks like a woman who's shook or people like throw out nasty things too And she doesn't give a motive Maybe she doesn't know what the motive totally was but she seems to straight up be Proceeded just like scared of jambinee mz Like she talks about this moment when he brings her jambinee's body up and they're both like over her And she's like i look at him and like in that moment i just know and then she tells him to go call 9-1-1 And she says she grabs her shoulder holster like her gun and she counts her bullets because she didn't know if everyone would make it out of their life Or like or would be alive when they come like for responders Now i said she like looks scared to me but she gets written off as a crazy lady like a lot of people call her crazy Like i think that's an easy out when you're talking about a woman like a week That's just something that i think is just an easy thing to say like and really john in our interview like he Stressed that to me like just how crazy she was how like incompetent But i asked him in the interview because i do know that later on patty and linda end up having some kind of like At least cordial exchanges where linda like goes and meets with patty for like an hour like just the two of them
And i just asked him because he was he was still like she's so crazy She's so crazy and i was like but clearly there's some kind of relationship and i first he was like well you know she was a detective I'm like no no but like it was after she got taken off the case What did they talk about and john says he doesn't know he was a part of the conversation So that answer probably died with patty i think john still like to me he's so called her crazy And i think she gets a lot of the flack for bungling the scene that first day But she actually ended up suing her department saying that she was they had kind of like an unofficial gap order from what i understand And she says she was kept from defending herself like it wasn't all on her she says and it ruined her career And she does she kind of like unceremoniously just like it's taken off the case she got harassed by question mark I don't really know. I don't know if anyone knows for sure. She doesn't do interviews anymore There was a rumor she was writing a book but i didn't seem like a peep about that So she probably saw what happened to c-tomas with his book and her casing as a department ended up getting dismissed So there was like no winning for her to talk about this case like i couldn't even reach her for like an off the record conversation So she's far removed from this now Moral of the story The loud theories among law enforcement were family centric and it seems like even they couldn't agree on who or why because things were a mess
Many people were calling for a grand jury to be convened so that they could decide What is just tabloid fodder and what is real evidence like was there someone in the house responsible for something that night or should we be out there Looking for an intruder like the ransys have been saying all along It takes almost two years But the dam finally breaks in september of 1998 that is when a grand jury finally gets called But before that gets going two very big letters get published publicly One from fleet white in anticipation of the grand jury and then another from detective steve tomas who is like dunzo with this He resigns from the department in like a pretty dramatic way And listen the next part is gonna be like just a little bit long But girl it's like it is spicy and remember you guys like you signed up for this So I am going to edit each of these just a little bit down for like clarity But i'm gonna have links to the full thing in our show notes so you can go read them in full grab your popcorn Well, let's get comfy the first from detective steve tomas
Chief bender on june 22nd. I submitted a letter to chief coe Requesting a leave of absence from the boulder police department in response to persistent speculation as to why I chose to leave the ramsy investigation This letter explains more fully those reasons The primary reason I chose to leave is my belief that the district attorney's office continues to mishandle the ramsy case I had been troubled for many months with many aspects of the investigation I'll be at enough hill battle of a case to begin with it became a nearly impossible investigation because of the political alliances Philosophical differences and professional egos that block progress in more ways and on more occasions that I can detail in this memorandum On june 1st and 2nd 1998 we crunched 30 000 pages of investigation to its essence and put our cards on the table Delivering the case in a formal presentation to the district attorney's office We stood confident in our work Very shortly thereafter though the detectives who know this case better than anyone were advised by the district attorney's office that we would not be Participating as grand jury advisory witnesses. How were we expected to solve this case when the district attorney's office was crippling us with their positions
I believe they were literally facilitating the escape of justice during this investigation considered the following during the investigation detectives would discover collect and bring evidence to the district attorney's office Only to have it so merrily dismissed or rationalized as insignificant The most elementary of investigative efforts such as obtaining telephone and credit card records were met without support search warrants denied The significant opinions of national experts were casually dismissed or ignored by the district attorney's office Even the experienced fbi were waived aside in a departure from protocol police reports physical evidence and investigative information We shared with ramsi defense attorneys all of this in the district attorney's office spirit of cooperation I served a search warrant only to find later defense attorneys were simply given copies of the evidence that yielded an fbi agent who might Didn't even know quietly tipped me off about what the da's office was doing behind our backs conducting investigation The police department was wholly unaware of I was advised not to speak to certain witnesses and all but dissuaded from pursuing particular investigative efforts Innocent people were not cleared publicly or otherwise even when it was unmistakably the right thing to do
His reputations and lives were destroyed some in the district attorney's office to this day pursue weak Defenseless and innocent people and shameless tactics that one couldn't believe more bizarre if it were made up I was told by one in the district attorney's office about being unable to break a particular police officer from his resolute accounts of events he had witnessed In my opinion, this was not trial preparation. This was an attempt to derail months of hard work There is evidence that was critical to the investigation that to this day has never been collected because neither search warrants nor other means were supported to do so Not to mention evidence which still sits today untested in a laboratory has differences continue about how to proceed while investigative efforts were rebuffed My search warrant affidavits and attempts together evidence in the murder investigation of a six-year-old child were met with refusals and instead the suggestion that we asked the permission of the ramsies before proceeding And just before conducting the rams interviews, I thought it inconceivable. I was being lectured on building trust These are but a few of the many examples of why I chose to leave having to convince to plead at times to a district attorney's office to assist us in the murder of a little girl
My way of the most basic of investigative request was simply absurd I believe the district attorney's office is thoroughly compromised when we were told by one in the district attorney's office months before we had even completed our investigation That this case is not prosecutable. We shook our heads in disbelief Will there be a real attempt at justice? I may be among the last to find out It is my belief the district attorney's office has effectively crippled this case The time for intervention is now but I witnessed for two years of my life was so fundamentally flawed it reduced me to tears Everything the badge ever meant to me was so foundationally shaken One should never have to sell one soul as a prerequisite to wear it on june 26 after leaving the investigation for the last time and leaving the city of boulder I wept as I drove home removing my detective shield and placing it on the seat beside me later putting it on a desk door at home knowing I could never put it back on at 36 years old. I thought my life's passion as a police officer was carved in stone I realized that although I may have to trade my badge for carpenters hammer I will do so with a clear conscience is with the heavy heart that I offer my resignation from the boulder police department in protest of this continuing travesty
Detective Steve Thomas number 638 detective division boulder police department Okay, that was so much. I I edited out. Yeah, you see you trimmed this up for clarity We only got the big parts the important parts But I mean I guess why I'm taking away from it is he's thinking that the police and the da Well, he's saying so he was on boulder He was on boulder pd and he's basically highlighting the rift that I think was kind of becoming evident like it very much felt like they were A little bit on different teams and they tried like publicly to like be united front But it was like it was pretty clear. That's not what was happening And you know one of the things I actually he kind of like touched on the search warrants and stuff When I was interviewing John, I was like, you know, one of the things I heard was that like they didn't get your like cell phone records It's like no, no, no, no like the second they asked for something we gave it to them And it's like this is one of those things were like it's all true So it seems like the da's office was delaying the pd in requesting those things like they weren't signing the search warrants They were asking them not to go ask the family So there were times when maybe things weren't collected in a timely manner
But it wasn't because the Ramses were withholding things because things weren't like flowing properly on the law enforcement side Yeah, and like at the same time not because long portions didn't want it. It's because they were like being bureaucracy It's like yeah, like yes, and maybe more and but why but why but why? So the Ramses having cleared that they feel like no other suspects were investigated properly And if you read legal depositions or watch any of the clips that have come out from them Like again that letter from Steve Thomas is saving his book is as well But I like went through and I was reading the deposition and watching some of the clips and there are times that in my opinion Steve Thomas gets caught where like I do think there were areas pointed out where like they could have done more investigating or Ways that he frames things in his book that I don't like when you're literally like on the line legally Maybe it's not as like strong as like you again framed it And then like I also think we're very clear and that there is not a symbiotic relationship between the DA's office and the police And the second letter I mentioned the fleet white letter I think it really raises the question of why that was which is what we're saying but why?
So here we go again edited down a little bit, but I'll link you with a little To the people of Colorado an anticipation of receiving a subpoena to appear before that grand jury We wish at this time to address matters concerning the investigation Which we feel are of great importance to the people of Colorado and the Boulder community After john baney ramsey was killed in bolder nearly 20 months ago her parents john and patsy ramsey immediately hired prominent democrat criminal defense attorneys with a law firm of hadden morgan and foreman This firm and its partners have close professional political and personal ties to prosecutors the denver and bolder legal and judicial communities State legislators and high ranking members of Colorado government including governor roy romer We knew john baney and her parents very well and have been closely involved in the investigation as witnesses During the past year we have also come to know and respect mr. thomas and we're saddened and discouraged by his departure from the investigation We share mr. thomas's view regarding the district attorney and his contention that overwhelming pressure brought to bear on the district attorney and police leadership From various quarters has thwarted the investigation and delayed justice in the case
While it is unlikely that the district attorney has been corrupted by ramsey defense attorneys It is certain that the district attorney and his prosecutors have been greatly influenced by their metro area district attorney advisors and by defense attorneys chummy Persuisiveness and threats of reprisals for anyone daring to jeopardize the civil rights of their victim clients indeed the district attorney and ramsey attorneys have simultaneously rebuked the police for focusing their investigation on the ramsey's when in fact police were simply following evidence Not with standing what the public has been led to believe bolder police leadership and detectives have been under the effective control of the district attorney and as advisors since the early days of the investigation In december 1997 we met with governor romer to request that the state intervene and appoint an independent special prosecutor to take over the investigation and prosecution of the case Siding the growing conflict between police and prosecutors and the delay of any progress in the investigation We expressed our view that bolder authorities were incapable of seeking justice Most developments in the case brought to the public's attention throughout 1997 should be regarded as well publicized But clumsy attempts by the district attorney and police leadership to look busy follow long task lists and clean up investigative files while the district attorney killed time
And spread out responsibility for the case on the other hand advances in the case since early this year have been carefully planned to condition the public for a grand jury investigation The district attorneys passed indecision and the need for police to ask him for a grand jury investigation or deliberate attempts to mislead the public If based on nothing other than the district attorneys repeated public statements and leaks characterizing the case as not prosecutable There can be little doubt that absent a confession that people running the investigation had long ago decided against filing charges in the case Instead they manipulated public opinion to favor the use of the grand jury There's compelling evidence however that their motivation for presenting the case to a grand jury as little or nothing to do with obtaining new evidence drilling reluctant witnesses Or returning an indictment and everything to do with sealing away facts circumstances and evidence gathered in the investigation in a grand jury transcript It is our firm belief that the district attorney and others intend to use the grand jury and its secrecy and attempt to protect their careers And also serve the conflicting interests of powerful influential and threatening people who have something to hide or protect or who simply don't want to be publicly linked to a dreadful murder investigation
And direct response to mr. Thomas's recent letter governor romer met on august 12th 1998 with district attorneys grant redder peters and thomas Later that day governor romer announced at a press conference that hunter had told him that the case was on track for a grand jury Romer said that it would be improper to appoint a special prosecutor now But that to improve public confidence in the case he would make available to hunter additional prosecutorial expertise On august 13th 1998 the rocky mountain news offered an editorial entitled calling in the calvory in which the editor generally supported governor romer's action But insightfully asked the obvious question why has it taken so long for hunter's office to present the case to a grand jury There is a relatively simple but compelling answer to the question raised by the rocky mountain news editorial Since very early in the case there has been at least a tacit understanding among the district attorney police leadership those persons advising these agencies and ramsi defense attorneys That the case would be presented to a grand jury but not until the statutory bolder grand jury was convened in april 1998 This delay was deemed necessary by some or all of these parties in order to take advantage of a new statute concerning grand jury reporting procedures
By law, however, this change in procedure would only apply to reports issued by grand juries convened after october 1st 1997 In order to take advantage of the new statute a bolder grand jury would have to wait until april 1998 the next convening of the statutory bolder grand jury Subsequent to october 1st 1997 in order to accomplish this it was necessary for these people to stall and cynically rely on the public's relative ignorance of the statute and the purpose and general nature of grand juries Speaking in favor of the bill before the committee where district attorneys ritter thomas and grand All of these district attorneys along with jim peters would be named publicly as advisors to alex hunter on the ramsi case The original intent of the coloretto district attorney council draft and that of representative koffman was to make it easier for grand juries to issue reports In cases where there is not an indictment returned but where in the public interest the grand jury wishes to address allegations of misconduct by public employees falling short of criminal conduct The final bill made it possible for a grand jury to address allegations of 1st and 2nd degree murder and the two classes of child abuse resulting in death The new statute would enable a bolder grand jury investigating the death of john benay ramsi to publicly exonerate someone who'd been alleged to have committed one of these crimes
But only in the event in a diamond was not returned the bill was signed into law by governor romer on april 8th 1997 It is certain that boulder county district attorney alex hunter the metro area district attorneys advising mr Hunter the current leadership of the boulder police department the three attorneys advising the boulder police department and ramsi defense attorneys have known That to take advantage of the new statute it would be necessary to delay a grand jury investigation of the ramsi case until april 1998 the people of coloretto are entitled to be frustrated and angry with those public officials and other persons who have brought this case to its current status We must be mindful. However, of the first cause of the investigations failure the refusal of john and patsey ramsi to cooperate fully and genuinely With those officially charged with the responsibility of investigating the death of their daughter john benay fleet russell white jr and priscilla brown white august 17th 1998 bolder coloretto Okay What my head is absolutely spinning. I can barely get my thoughts straight on this
I know we obviously weren't reading coloretto newspapers in 1998 and like this seems a little too hard hitting for like the grocery store When we were in like third grade, so I think a lot of people missed this So basically in a nutshell fleet is saying that there's just Mad corruption not so much corruption but like conflict of interest so a bill was made with the intention of clarifying a law So there was more like transparency in the process for the public which would basically let them issue certain reports from grand jury proceedings But still keep other parts of things confidential Check but by the time that we're system timing it like right after jambinees deaths and with the help of people providing advisement Consultation our representation in her case it was a little different Because I know what's going i'll cut right to the chase One of the main things that it would allow them to do is say that like oh the jury didn't indict which means there's no case My hands are tied Yeah, bingo and you do know where this is going so the grand jury is called lots of witnesses We know some through reporting like who was going to court and whatnot like I know detective linda aren't you know birk
I know the ramsys pilot the whites lots lots lots more killers Yeah, not steve thomas as we know from his letter Not the ramsy like john patsy though john is always maintained that they were more than willing to go to participate in any way necessary But ultimately they were not called and then in october of 1999 their hearings come to an end and the district attorney makes this long awaited Announcement the boulder grand jury has completed its work and will not return no charges have been filed The grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well bringing to bear all of their legal powers life experiences and truthness Yet I must report to you that I in my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges against Anyone who has been investigated at this time under coloretto law the proceedings of the grand jury are secret Under no circumstances will I or any of my advisors prosecutors the law enforcement officers working on the case or grand jurors discuss the grand jury proceedings today Or ever unless ordered by the court So basically everyone decided the ramsys had nothing to do with it because the grand jury didn't indict Yes, that was basically the implied message to the public like hey, no tabloid bs
Like these are the facts and these people decided that there would be no charges is the implied message And did linda aren't ever speak out after that? No, so she did her good morning america thing that I talked about she did that right before this happened So she did that interview in september and the ramsys lawyers they made a statement about her appearance that I found in the dendre Post um because they like comment on the timing So they said quote we questioned the timing of this interview the statement from the ramsys train said the grand jury will conclude its work In the next month. There is no good reason why miss aren't could not have stopped publicity after the grand jury process was concluded and quote Now after this is when momentum really picks up I think for the ramsy family who finally feels the small amount of indication And they hope that maybe now investigators will focus on looking for the intruder that they say came into their home That they've been saying all along came into their home a home which they sell and move away from to go back to georgia And john told me that his company had this relocation program where they would buy your house like i've seen stuff like this with like big organizations Especially for like high up execs like they would buy it from you so that you can move when they need you to move and not be like held up by this house
Whatever so they buy it and then would sell whatever but it's interesting because the documentation around this is kind of weird So from the records that I pulled from the assessors office I see where the house was bought presumably by the ramsy's in 1991 for $500,000 Then in december of 1997 so this is about a year after jon pene It looks like there's a transfer of the deed but it is a zero dollar transfer So like no one bought it it was like me giving house to you or something like that There's no money association from the assessor's office records and I can't see who it went to like they don't have that publicly available There's just a transfer on records right then we see another transfer happen in february of 1998 for $650,000 According to statements made to reporters mike bynum says that a group of investors purchased the ramsy house from like this laki middleman thing But they didn't purchase it under any like one person's name or person's names Which again is like a totally normal thing the llc formed is named after the address So it's 75 515 street llc mike bynum told the daily camera that this group of investors was composed of individuals assisting the ramsy family
What does that even mean? I can't tell you because I looked up the the property records and then the business records So I went and looked for 75 515 street llc the company doesn't list individuals names under its members So instead it lists group two partnership group four partnership and then there's a registered agent because you have to have someone's name Human there. Yeah, just like go company your company or whatever and the registered agent is a woman named and bork And there's a listed address of 1900 15th street in bolder So I did a new super calm archive look up with that address and like listen newspapers calm It's great. It's not the end all be all in fact I found that it's like actually very hard to find a lot of bolder things in there and I think they're included But I did find one article in total when I google that address There's one article that comes up and it's from the daily sentinel from february 6th 1997 it's this article about like the cost of the ramsy investigation like what it's costing like the police the city And then towards the end it says Wednesday the ramsy family announced the address to male contributions for a children's advocacy group founded in their daughters memory
Donations may be sent to the john benay ramsy children's foundation in care of the colorado business bank of bolder 1915 street bolder 80302 And so then I got into this like weird rabbit hole with this bank because when I started looking up the bank I found this next article from the daily sentinel from january 13th 1997 and it says women's bank has changed its name to colorado business Bank a sign of the progress women have made since the business was founded 20 years ago But in a piece then later that I saw in like dinder library.org It says that the women's bank sold in 1994 and that the name changed happened in 1995 not 1997 when this article that I found was And according to the nice librarian at the Carnegie library of local history in bolder colorado That address the 1915th street was listed for colorado business bank in their phone books in 1997 and 1998 But then it wasn't there anymore in 1999 And then I saw that like when I look at the colorado business bank it got bought by bok financial in 2018 so it's not like it got bought and changed you know And it all probably means nothing like I don't know who Ann Bork is
It's probably not weird that she with the house is tied to this address where like they're doing foundation Donations because we know that the group who bought the house was like composed of like people who were supporting the rams It almost feels like almost an executor of a will type situation like a figurehead for an organization the foundation or whatnot Yeah, so I don't know again. She might have some connection I like tried reaching out to people who might have like known her I've had anyone to get anyone to talk to me but let's go back to the house for a second So the statements made about the house at the time about this like mystery purchase Was that this group was going to hold onto the house for like tv the amount of time And then all of the profits from the house are going to go to the japanese ramsian children's foundation Which by this point john patsy had set up in memory of japanese with the help of like buying because always there According to the dendre post the foundation was formed with the goal to like I think they said gather funds to be used in the education and care of Children all in the memory of japanese. So, you know when the house Souls I do so the house didn't sell until 2004. Okay, so this is a total aside But I just read a book
It's called tell me everything the story of a private investigation and it's about this private investigator is like assistant who is investigating University of Colorado and one of the people that she's investigating is like someone who is living in the ramsian house at the time of the Investigation, which is like wait what year late 90s early 2000s So it's like in this interim period in this interim period I think oh god and like he's not a person who should be able to necessarily afford a 6000 square foot mansion The timing is just what i wanted to mention and we know that there's no like transaction in that period Someone must have been like renting it or letting him stay there. I wish I could tell you who I don't know who I don't know who Who is holding the property at that point? Yeah?
Weird just a thought just a weird just a happy read up. I love literally like a month ago. Okay, so to go back So I looked at the foundation a little bit so we they say that they're gonna hold the house for tpm at a time Maybe rent it out. We don't know and then they're gonna donate the money I'm like the proceeds of whatever product from the house to foundation I didn't find what I was expected to find so the 990 forms for the organization They filed in 1998 1999 and 2000 and they don't show any huge transactions after 2000 And then the foundation gets shut down in 2003 shutting it down 2003 meant that contributions from the sale of the house in 2004 couldn't go there Oh, so I don't know where they went You would have to ask group two partners and group four partners if anyone knows who that is Unfortunately, we can't ask and board because she died in 2009 So so again, I see why me the house didn't go there I was also expecting though to see money from the sale of john and patsy's book So they wrote a book called the death of innocence and many of the statements that I have seen from them from their team from all these different people Is that the proceeds from the book we're going to go towards two things
So the Ramsey legal fees and the foundation now per john It seems like their legal fees like bled them dry At one point his lawyers represented and he said pro bono because they couldn't afford to pay them anymore What if interesting is that the goal must have changed to be that to pron approach at some time because when I said John he actually gave us this these box of like tapes and most of them are like pageant stuff or home movies Wet like family weddings whatever that actually one of those tapes appears to be of john and patsy practicing their book promotion Interviews with a media trainer, which is very long. I didn't need a train before I went on the today But this is where like again in this at least it seems like it started the money was going to only go to one place here take a listen Okay You are you have written a very thorough and interesting book. What do you intend to do for the profits?
That's not your personal question Should I always wait for president answer? No, just if I'm looking at you, okay Well, we established a foundation that dominates named on her legal legal legacy for her Prophets from the book will go foundation is going to focus on protecting children against predators. Is that I guess that's it then I don't know. It just leaves me hanging here I mean that's a very generous event and good thing for you to do is it how you know how to protect children against predators And how would you use the money to do that?
But we've seen a number of flaws in our system as it relates to the murder of a child We are the strongest most powerful nation on earth and yet we don't respond with our mic when one of our children's murder You know would it be possible for the site? Some of the cases are talking about it in the wrong What are the best examples that that we have learned about? Through all of this is that when your child's photograph is taken at school or a church or in any kind of activity dance recitals Piano recitals that photograph becomes the property of the photographer He or she may publish that photograph at any time any place that they so choose without Your permission so for today on the copyrights what danger can be to happen if you have a picture of your child's photograph It's someplace in a pedophile or someone who has Reason to want to zero in on that child and do harm to that child. That is a bad thing
So are you associating that with your own tragedy? Are you saying that there were so many photographs of John Manet? Because of the work that you did in the pageants that that could have incited some time saying that that is an example of one way That we need to we do not need to put our children out there in newspaper articles and The photographs should be for family memories not for public Well again most important when a child is murdered in this country We need to respond with the best we have to find a killer that does two things It sends a message that we're not going to tolerate it think about harming our child our children be better Make wise and secondly it ensures that we capture these monsters Before they kill again. I don't doubt that you have you know, an innocent and wonderful feelings about doing this kind of thing But how would you go about protecting a child?
I can't say I would I would advocate that the murder of a child Be the most serious offense in our society should be a federal crime to murder a child in this country and once found once the murder was found He should be given He should be executed or He should be he should be put away for us the most horrible thing if you would be in community to pray the child Well getting at is I think the wonderful and very generous thing to do to donate the property book to such a cause I don't know how you're going to implement it educational awareness through legislation They're all done yet We can offer rewards substantial rewards for information we can establish a tip center information center
We can establish databases that track known child sex offenders We can put experts in place make experts available to local law enforcement. We can advocate In the United States Congress the murder of a child should be mandated as a federal resource You should be put on attacking that so far. I haven't done anything like that. No, nor is anyone else We're gonna try to read it. It's a horrible flaw in our system. We respond aggressively when bank is wrong
So John and I when I talked to him We didn't get into where the house money went during our conversation because if he sold it I'm not sure he's the person who has the answers that I'm looking for We did get a little bit into John Benet's legacy and what's happening in place at the foundation I'm gonna touch on that a little bit later. I don't think the Ramses were ever planning to fund the whole foundation themselves Perhaps there weren't many contributions at most like I said I only saw small transactions at most there was like 12,000 dollars that I saw like in the thing So while starting the foundation was like a noble effort It perhaps wasn't the undertaking that they were ready for as someone who started like a true 5-1-3 like it is a heck of a lot of work And like to keep it running to keep it sustainable on its own It is like a massive undertaking so whatever they were planning I mean in that interview, it's like have you done this no like are you planning to do it?
Yes, like it doesn't actually come to fruition So in 2003 the foundation goes to fund Oh, there's something 2003 was a weird year So the foundation goes to 2003 and then something else happens and it's one of those other things that I had never known about before The night sky may look endless, but its secrets could be closer than we think because in this universe you're never truly alone I'm Evangentile and I'm her sister Rasha Pecorero every Friday on so supernatural We investigate alien encounters haunting tales of the unknown and cosmic mysteries that defy explanation ready to discover what's out there Listen to so supernatural wherever you get your podcast Okay, so here is a media release that was sent out on Wednesday June 4th 2003 that has been archived on Boulder Colorado.gov The Boulder Police Department recently became aware that someone was unlawfully sending emails using the name of Chief Beckner on April 25th 2003 Rocky Mountain News columnist Charlie Brennan received an email titled as being from Chief Beckner
Complementing mr. Brennan for a recent column he had written on the John Bonet Ramsey case According to embedded information within the message the email was sent from an MSN Hotmail account Beckner BPD at Hotmail.com the email was then signed off with regards mark Please see below message text from Chief Beckner sent Friday April 25th 2003 116 p.m. 2 Brennan see at Rocky Mountain News calm subject great articles Charlie just want you to know I thought those two articles you wrote today were excellent you got everything right as you always do Thanks for all your support eventually will be proven right regards mark Being skeptical of the messages authenticity mr. Brennan telephone chief backner to ask him about the message Chief Beckner Confirmed that he did not send the message the Chief was alarmed that someone was apparently using his title and name without authorization to communicate about the John Bonet Ramsey case with members of the media Search warrants were obtained and executed for MSN Hotmail in California according to MSN Hotmail the Beckner BPD at Hotmail.com account was established in 2000
The account creator provided information stating that the owner was Chief Beckner from Boulder, Colorado and furthermore provided an accurate birth year for the Chief further investigation led police to the internet protocol IP numbers from where the suspect had accessing the Beckner BPD at Hotmail.com account Since early March 2003 all access to the Beckner BPD at Hotmail.com account were from a single netcom now owned by Earthlink dial-up account A search warrant was obtained and executed for Earthlink in Georgia according to Earthlink's records the account holder that has been accessing the Beckner BPD at Hotmail.com email account is Susan B Stein five seven six zero long Grove Drive Atlanta, Georgia Susan Stein is known as a close friend of John and Patsy Ramsey and has been interviewed as a witness in reference to the Ramsey investigation the search warrants also yielded other messages that had been received by the Beckner BPD at Hotmail.com account a number of these messages indicated That the Beckner BPD at Hotmail.com user had been attempting to convince others that he or she was Chief Mark Beckner others appeared to be nonsensical
Please note that the investigators were able to confirm that the messages to and from Rocky Mountain News reporter Charlie Brennan and Rita Johnson were received or sent by those individuals The other messages were not confirmed as received or sent by those parties at the request of the Boulder Police Department members of the Georgia Bureau of Investigation GBI went to Miss Stein's residence in an attempt to interview her on June 3rd 2003 However, she refused to talk with the GBI agent Chief Mark Beckner is alarmed by the discovery that his name and position as Boulder Police Chief has been used in an effort to communicate with others Given the history of the Ramsey case and the concerns we have had with information being distributed to the public oftentimes inaccurate information This discovery is disturbing state of Chief Beckner I want the media and public to know that if they have received communications from this email address purporting to be me that it is bogus My official email address is public and is Beckner M at Boulder Colorado dot gov under Colorado law criminal impersonation is a class six felony And impersonating a police officer is a class one misdemeanor the Boulder Police Department and the Boulder County District Attorney's Office have agreed to issue a letter to Susan Stein
Advising her of the unlawful conduct and at the use of Chief Beckner's name in such a manner must cease immediately The Beckner BPD at Hotmail dot com account has been frozen by MSN Hotmail The Boulder Police Department would like anyone receiving email messages from any reported member of the Boulder Police Department to know that official email addresses Use the members last name and first initial followed by at Boulder Colorado dot gov If you are not sure that a message is legitimate, please call the department member to confirm that they did in fact send the message We are concerned that there could be other messages out there reportedly from either me or other department members that are fake in an attempt to either receive information or communicate false information stated Beckner On June 3rd 2003 Chief Beckner did receive an email from Susan Stein in which she apologized for using the Hotmail account describing it as a Sophomoreic prank and apologizing for any distress she may have caused anyone with additional information is encouraged to call Boulder Police Detective Jim McPherson at 303 441-3330 I'm sorry. What was that? Isn't that weird? Yeah, but I think I'm confused. I thought the signs lived in Boulder
Yes, and no the Steins did live in Boulder in 1996. They were the ones who the Ramses stopped to get the present They got the last time on Christmas. They still lived there for a little bit Yeah, they lived at their house for a little bit after and some ways somehow some reason the Steins end up moving to Atlanta either At the same time as the Ramses or after the Ramses move back to Atlanta like the timing is unclear But they do like pick up their family their lives and move to Atlanta. I love you so much. We've never moved together We've done a lot of moving. We've never followed one another. No, I love you too
And it's it's interesting because as of Monday March 17th 1997. There is this time article that's published that day where The article is not like what matters like it's talking about like the cost of tuition or whatever But Glensign is quoted in that article but they give his title and he's the vice president for finance at the University of Colorado Which is like a pretty sweet gig to walk away from Still, I know people move before that article says that he was a senior budget official at Penn from like I think it was like 82 to 90 Uh the Sandusky years the Sandusky era. Yeah, so lots of reason to leave right like yeah, so maybe he left Colorado to go to another university Like I I don't have a record of where he went after Colorado So I don't know well and again not to reference this book But like the timing is interesting because the scandal of that the book was investigating was a sex scandal at the University of Colorado He's not gonna do the right no, but it's happening at the University and there's a cover up and there's money involved So maybe so the same way he could have been like interesting timing that's all Yeah, so the same reason like I mean I can understand wanting to like leave Penn for something like all the reason to want to leave
Or like find a new like Whatever so maybe that's why like I can never like I don't understand the timing of it But like maybe something was going on at the University that he was ready to leave and moving to a place where you already know people It's good. It is like when you think about like okay, if my time here is up like I'm gonna pick up and leave We could go anywhere. It's good to go to a community where you have community right? You have some kind of like a friend you're like rounding you whatever it's so much easier like integrating to a new life And maybe they thought about like going to their friends who like who was who you know they become really good friends clearly They were living together like they're going through such a hard time and maybe part of it was not only for them to have a community But for them to like support these new found friends And the ransies still needed the support because even though they weren't physically in bolder like it didn't none of it stopped Like the personal attacks didn't stop the being hounded by the tabloids didn't stop like they followed them across the country no matter where they went I even found actually one of the tabloid articles. It's by um these two guys David Wright and David Duffy It's from March 11th, 1987 Where someone had taken the same plane as the ransies from one end of the country to the other just to like report on their every move
Like who's that where who looked at who who didn't look at who how were they interacting? Like who got off the plane where like they were all over them So I understand for the ransies again, it was stimes Maybe they want to go support them the ransies just needed to get out of there But they did the thing I will say to everyone's like oh they like how do you leave when this investigation is going on for your daughter Don't do it. We'll be a part of that they did have boots on the ground on their behalf in bolder So loose mitt is on their team by this point So he was an investigator who was originally brought in by the DA's office to look at this case He ended up leaving because like the official capacity because he got so frustrated He felt like everyone was so narrowly focused on the family that they were like missing the bigger picture I wasn't enough being done right and this dude straight up devoted his like life to jambonie ramsie's case Honestly his family legacy to this case because even after he died his family has like gone on to continue his work Like they've picked up the torch They were actually a part of this really interesting podcast I listened to called the killing of jambonie ramsie Which I will link to admittedly I when it first came out I saw it and I avoided it and I think it's like so much of this case I'm like I already know like I cannot believe like why are we rehashing this and it was like you know the pageant pictures of her
But once I was like diving into it there was actually a ton I didn't know in that podcast about potential suspects and about the work that lu cement has done to He did his family did to like go down those paths to vet things to like put an order of like who should we look at like you know We got limited number of resources for our time. Yes, but anyway, so lu cement is like all over this case And I think he really gets people for the first time to think about like if it's not the ramsie Not just like oh, it's not the ramsies But really think about like the if not them then who and how and why Now lu feels confident that the intruder came through that basement window It was already broken so they could just like region unlatch it open it up like he even demonstrates how easy it would be for someone to like Slip down into the windows. Okay, but what about the spider webs?
Yeah, I don't the spider webs do you like do you want to just give a quick a breakdown of the spider webs? Yeah, there was like this great thing covering the area to get into the window and there were like officers who said they saw spider webs on this Great. They said it had been there for a while someone would have messed it up if the great had been moved to get into the window Yeah, I never really see anything like to fully refute that I think maybe I heard once they said that maybe the webs weren't like as fresh as they thought Yeah, like they were saying that um like if someone had the movie great and put it back They would expect the spider webs to be more fresh looking Yeah, but they the interpretation you get from people who are giving us the interpretation of this is that they had been there for a long time They were more like cobwebby There aren't any pictures. We don't know what it looks like They didn't find her body for hours So also like maybe the intruder was like the most lucky person on earth Like I don't have enough information to like see for myself to like make my own opinion of this So you just have these two sides, right?
Like the one saying like it is impossible for those spider webs to be there and for your theory to be right Loose mipping like it means nothing like the spiders knew this is probably how they got in And then there's also like this third option where like maybe neither like John in early days Like there and this is where like the conflicting early reports will be like oh They say he told them that he locked up at night, but in all of John's statements afterwards He's like we left the doors. I don't know if I check them like we leave the doors like partially unlocked There could have been other entry points for this person to come to our home And I also said lots of people had keys or like keys were missing or floating around or this person had it or like we never got this key back So all that to say in my mind though That was like very much lose smith's theory is it had to do with this window them dropping down Them using this the suitcase to like get in and out the window is not the only option The only option if you are thinking about intruders So like I don't want to like die on the hill or get so caught up in that that again You can't look at the bigger picture And there's mother stuff that Lou points out that we haven't really got into yet And that is the cord used on jambinee on her neck and her hands That is never sourced to anything in the house We don't know where that cord came from same thing with the tape that was over her mouth
Like that never gets sourced to anything in the house So in Lou Smith's mind that means that someone had to have brought those things in or taken them out If they were already in the house Right versus like the legal pad that was left there the pen the paintbrush Right things that were sourced in the house but also left and left Right so I don't think you can say that they like didn't come from it We just don't know there's nothing there so they're like took something with them is what Lou was saying like or we would find them here Even if we step away from the evidence in the home because truly like you could go back and forth back and work back and debate this so you're blue in the face I told you what's there. I don't want to argue about the meaning of it. That's not my job I want to get to the facts So in 2003 more DNA testing is done and from her underwear Guess what they get an unknown male profile DNA like before but this time it is enough for a full profile Good enough to put into codus, which I don't know where I was like sleeping at the wheel before I was like deep in this Like hi, I didn't even realize there was a codus profile on the jumping rams in case Uh neither did I there of course have been no matches or we would have heard about that right now Yeah, it's just sitting in the database. Hopefully still is that was actually one of my questions
I wanted to ask bolder pd because I have seen in other cases that we've worked where The requirements have changed over the years I've seen where like the DNA was and but then there was a change like an update and like not ever eligible Match was like right here. Yeah, so that's what I've read everything I've read is that is encoded I wanted to ask them specifically that nothing had changed but in all that time no hits So in later years additional testing is done by some other crime labs and even other like outside of the state agency like boaty Boaty's a big lab still to the state who's doing a ton of genealogy stuff a ton of advanced testing season of justice works a lot with them So boaty comes in they do some more testing and they get an unidentified male profile from her underwear And lots of people say here's like the caveat lots of people say this is from saliva And they might have done an amylase test which can amylase can be found in saliva It can also be found in other things but it's usually like the levels are so much higher in saliva So I don't know if that's where they like that comes from like we know it's like it wasn't you know any other fluid that they've been able to definitively Link it too and I can't get like too far or I like I'm afraid I'm afraid I'm gonna say something wrong because that's Really technical so what I can go back to is what is very clear in my mind and what I do understand is that when they do this testing
They find more DNA so we know we've got the DNA in the underwear But they also test like places on her long john specifically I think places where they think if someone was gonna like hold down her pants upper pants and they're able to get touch DNA on the outsides on the left and the right and on one side the Unidentified male one profile that we have in the underwear can't be excluded so we can't exclude it on the other side It's too small that it can't be included or excluded. Okay, so we don't know anything Well, we know that it might match we know that the DNA in the underwear might match or it's at least consistent with The touch DNA on the outsides now I think it's important. No, there is this like note that the DNA might come from more than two contributors Which actually makes reading the results like from my understanding even more complicated But I keep coming back to like the word like consistent because I almost have to like retrain my brain because what I had always heard in the public and from Like statements and stuff is that we have a match we have the same DNA here here and here And it is not a match in that you can say 100% these are like the exact profiles. It is cannot be excluded. Can I be included?
Excluded it's like consistent with it's enough to be like in my my probative like it's still very interesting that we have unknown male profiles In all these places like but like let's be clear. Make sure we're using the right language Now it is powerful enough of a fine that the boulder da at the time This one's name is Mary Lacey. She actually sent the Ramses a letter of apology She actually sent it to john Ramsey because by that time john told me that patty had lost her battle with ovarian cancer So once again, this letter is slightly edited for clarity, but this is what she told john Ramsey be a letter July 9th 2008 Mr. John Ramsey as you are aware since december 2002 the Boulder district attorney's office has been the agency responsible for the investigation of the homicide of your daughter John banei I understand that the fact that we have not been able to identify the person who killed her is a great disappointment that is a continuing hardship for you and your family However significant new evidence has recently been discovered through the application of relatively new methods of DNA analysis This new scientific evidence convinces us that it is appropriate even the circumstances of this case to state that we do not consider your immediate family
Including you your wife patty and your son burg to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime I wish we could have done so before mrs. Ramsey died We became aware last summer that some private laboratories were conducting a new methodology described as touch DNA One method of sampling for touch DNA is the scraping method This is a process in which forensic scientists scrape places where there are no stains or other signs of the possible presence of DNA to recover for analysis Any genetic material that might nonetheless be present We contracted with the bogey technology group a highly reputable laboratory recommended to us by several law enforcement agencies to use the scraping method for touch DNA On the long johns that john banei war and that were probably handled by the perpetrator during the course of this crime The bogey technology laboratory was able to develop a profile from DNA recovered from the two sides of the long johns The previously identified profile from the crotch of the underwear worn by john banei at the time of the murder Match the dna recovered from the long johns at bogey Unexplain dna on the victim of a crime is powerful evidence The match of male dna on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items
Despite substantial efforts over the years to identify the source of this dna There is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that john banei was wearing at the time of her murder Solving this crime remains our goal and its ultimate resolution will depend on more than just matching dna However, given the history of the publicity surrounding this case I believe it is important and appropriate to provide you with our opinion that your family was not responsible for this crime Based on the dna results and our serious consideration of all the other evidence We are comfortable that the profile now in codus is the profile of the perpetrator of this murder To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime I am deeply sorry No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion Especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law I have the greatest respect for the way you and your family have handled this adversity I am aware that there will be those who will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion But dna is very often the most reliable forensic evidence We can hope to find and we rely on it often to bring to justice those who have committed crimes
I am very comfortable that our conclusion that this evidence has vindicated your family is based firmly on all the evidence including the reliable forensic dna evidence That has been developed as a result of advances in that scientific field during this investigation We intend in the future to treat you as a victim of this crime with the sympathy do you because of the horrific loss you suffered Otherwise, we will continue to refrain from publicly discussing the evidence in this case We hope that we will one day obtain a dna match from the codus databank that will lead to further evidence and to the solution of this crime With recent legislative changes throughout the country the number of profiles available for comparison in the codus databank is growing steadily Law enforcement agencies are receiving increasing numbers of cold hits on dna profiles that have been in the system for many years We hope that one day soon we will get a match to this perpetrator. We will of course contact you immediately Perhaps only then we will begin to understand the psychopathy or motivation for this brutal and census crime Respectfully mary t lacy district attorney 20th judicial district bolder, Colorado So there's been a profile in codus for like 20 years with no hits no hits not a single one
And there's an ABC news article saying that they checked that profile against everyone in the family along with 200 other potential suspects as well And all of them have been excluded from this profile in that same article actually mary lacy kind of gives her theory Which I believe is like close if not exact to what the rams you subscribe to which is that while they're out of the christmas party or not the christmas den Earth whites someone snuck into their home wrote that note late in wait They had plenty of time and when the ramsies got home they waited for everyone to go to bed So they could go upstairs or john they were sleeping and grab her Now loose knit also strongly believe that a stun gun was used to subdue her I'm sure that like this theory like part of this theory has become pretty popular Yeah, aren't there like two like little marks that are right next to each other on her back that lose said like look like they could be Yeah, I'm gun marks or something. Yeah. Now. So there's the two marks There's no burn marks, which I said to be really common with stun guns Which is maybe why the original pathologist just noted them as abrasions It was you know, there's like a lot of back and forth with this like was it a song?
Was it not loose mitz like confidence? So there's actually this point where it's recommended to the ramsies like oh we should exhume jambene And have someone else look at her to confirm that like now that we got this idea like with someone else like look at this I don't want to say with a more critical view but like with that in mind But the ramsies don't want to do that now keep in mind this is happening like a lot closer to so like there's like it's not like We're talking here's so it would have been like useful timing wise something might have been there Yeah, there's still a lot of value in it loose mitz seem to be really on board with this like yes Let's do an exclamation. Let's get a second on a topsy But I think it was barber walters when john and patsy went on they were just saying like we don't want to have her exhumed Like if we just buried her like that is it's a trauma Yeah, it's too painful like we we want our daughter to rest in peace and in there in in their mind They're like you have the original pathology report you have pictures of this like everything we need is here For lu to even come to this conclusion like we don't need to mix in her So with the intro theory I get the what and the how of the idea I think it like lines up. It makes sense. There's elements to it that makes sense But I guess that leaves us with like the two major questions left, which is who and why
Which one you'll first Uh, let's go with why so there's no one so there are two routes with the intro theory that I have heard the ramsy camp discuss One is like this idea that this is a pet of some kind of sexual deviant all around scaring mother for roaming the suburbs and streets of boulder Don't get me wrong like scaring mother is like every brand of the person who did this but around this year What they point to is the paintbrush being put in her the choking around her neck And I would hear lu say that he believes she was hit in the head after she was choking. I said I like this all of that That's that's one potential avenue theory. Why the other is that it was someone who hated john ramsy Like the note was clearly about john Everything was addressed to him like when I sat down with him he even talked more about this theory I feel like then the other told like a lot like he just kept saying like they seem to hate him But then the sexual stuff doesn't really make any sense It's like her best friends because literally like I asked him that and he agrees He's like i'm just like okay But john if they're like if they if this is about you and your business and they don't like you why did they have to do
You're saying all of the other stuff like was sexual. It's not a staging. It was sexually motivated So like why that doesn't make sense. He's like no like I can't almost like both things can't be true at the same time Yeah, but I think I think what they've said before what I think he would say and what I know they've said before is like you can't make sense Of someone like this. So no we said that before yeah, so like no this like doesn't make sense to us But does that mean it couldn't have happened like that?
So you gave us two possible wise but without really landing on one. How do you even get to who? I think it makes your list really long like really long I know as part of their defense team the randy's actually hired john Douglas The father of the ba u john Douglas to consult on the case and he firmly believes in their innocence Like I actually asked him for an interview He couldn't because of some family things but he like told us in email that he was never asked to provide a written profile to either The ramsi defense or the boulder pd but he provided his analysis verbally to both He thinks the boulder pd even recorded it But he said he could tell that even when they were like hearing him They still seem squarely focused on the family But he firmly believes in the ramsis he said and I actually gave us a quote to make his position extremely clear He said there are no words that can describe what a family goes through when their child is a victim of a violent crime However, what is profoundly even worse on top of that is to have your child murdered and then be wrongfully accused or even convicted of killing your child The ramsis are not murderers, but victims
They are victims of investigative incompetence as well as intentional and prejudicial news coverage I've worked many cases where parents have killed the child, but this is not one of those cases end quote So to go back to who if you know this case you heard that santa that santa yep The santa were talking about this santa from the ramsis christmas party on the 23rd There were a lot of really odd things about him his family like just like circumstantial things They're like oh my god like those things it all just like lined up in a very strange way There was even supposedly jambaneh was even telling people that like santa was gonna make a special visit to her after christmas Which was like a thing that everyone pointed to a lot There were pedophiles that were found within the pageant circuit Like there was one that surfaces to the top of the list but not until years later But when this like one comes about it kind of like proved what people were screaming all along like very scary people were close to jambaneh And other children throughout pageantry because it's actually like the guy who was like her photographer for her pageant stuff Ends up being like a prolific pedophile like he has wild imagery out the wazoo
So There's that whole segment of things there was a guy named gary leva who like early days was said to have confessed to killing jambaneh And listen people want to say that patsies hand-drying is like a close and again She's the only one that couldn't be excluded like I saw this dude say like gary's handwriting It's like scary close to the ramsinote. Oh, there's another guy named john mark car he confessed to i remember those headlines Yeah, that's what i remember thinking when i was younger that got solved Yeah, like oh my god, this could be it. Yeah, it was it was huge I remember being so huge because he was like living out of the country at the time And here's the thing I like a bits and pieces from the headlines from like what i was seeing because we were a little bit older at that time But I never knew the full story about john mark car until I saw the netflix doc that's coming out November 25th And we actually got early screeners like how they bought to him was wild and like I I know i said this a thousand times He weren't gonna get tired of me saying it like when you're deep in a case like I could point to you think there's gonna be like one person who looks So good for it, but then i'm like I could tell you stories of like five people 10 people who I only told you about them
You'd be 100 behind that's how it like that's how it is with like santa with her like pageant photographer with john mark car Like they go in deep and it's it is so interesting it's stuff I never knew I don't actually want to like spoil all of that because like the netflix doc is gonna be out really close to a releasing this So I encourage everyone to just like go watch that for yourselves And I mean I don't want to be ready for so long I don't want to spend too much time because at the end of the day We also know that no one's dna has matched the profile they have not even the petal Don mark car the Santa like like not even the 200 people I told you they compared dna to Whoever This was their they're ghost and without a name and a face to associate with the crime It has left a lot of room for old rumors to Maybe like surface again or at least like there's rumblings underneath and those rumblings got very loud in 2013 when the daily camera started reporting that Years after the grand jury convened remember the grand jury back in 1999. Yes, so we're in 2013
They start saying like maybe things weren't as they seemed The night sky may look endless, but its secrets could be closer than we think because in this universe You're never truly alone. I'm yevagendile and i'm her sister russia peporero every friday on so supernatural We investigate alien encounters haunting tales of the unknown and cosmic mysteries that defy explanation ready to discover what's out there Listen to so supernatural wherever you get your podcast All right, so jurors confirmed to the daily camera that there was actually an indictment that came out of those proceedings back in 1999 So here's how this came about a reporter named charlie brennan and the reporters committee for freedom of press filed a lawsuit to have the documents from the proceeding unsealed They had been sealed like most grand jury things like since 1999 Okay, so when that happened There are 18 pages that get sent to a judge to review to see which ones could be released and what needed to stay sealed to protect like what a grand jury is And in total four of those 18 pages were released to the public
count seven On or about December 25th and December 26th 1996 in boulder county, Colorado John bennett ramsi did unlawfully knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder delay and prevent the discovery detention Abrehension conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime knowing the person being assisted has committed and was suspected of the crime of murder In the first degree and child abuse resulting in death as to count seven accessory to a crime a true bill signature redacted no true bill Count for a on or between December 25th and December 26th 1996 in boulder county, Colorado John bennett ramsi did unlawfully knowingly recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation Which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health which resulted in the death of john benay ramsi a child under the age of 16 As to count for a child abuse resulting in death a true bill signature redacted no true bill
count for a On or between December 25th and December 26th 1996 in boulder county, Colorado Patricia paul ramsi did unlawfully knowingly recklessly and feloniously permit a child to be unreasonably placed in a situation Which posed a threat of injury to the child's life or health which resulted in the death of john bonnet ramsi a child under the age of 16 As to count for a child abuse resulting in death a true bill signature redacted Count seven on or about December 25th and December 26th 1996 in boulder county, Colorado Patricia paul ramsi did unlawfully knowingly and feloniously render assistance to a person with intent to hinder delay and prevent the discovery detention apprehension prosecution conviction and punishment of such person for the commission of a crime knowing the person being assisted has committed and was Suspected of the crime of murder in the first degree and child abuse resulting in death As to count seven accessory to a crime a true bill signature redacted no true bill I don't know what the other counts were or why they weren't unsealed
But well like I mean how did the d.a get away with saying that they didn't get an indictment because he didn't say that What he said it's important because like the wording is specific on this it is here So he said quote the boulder grand jury has completed its work and will not return No charges have been filed The grand jurors have done their work extraordinarily well bringing to bear all of their legal powers life experiences and shrewdness Yet I must report to you that I and my prosecution task force believe we do not have sufficient evidence to warrant the filing of charges against Anyone who has been investigated at this time blah blah blah So it's careful wording like he was going to say he stalked himself And this became a legal just because some said by law He was required to sign the indictment and then if he wanted to move to dismiss the charges He could have but just not signing them wasn't anything he should have been able to do now other analysts say that the law was more ambiguous I don't know. I don't know if your head's hurting
But mine is left and listen the burden of proof to indict versus convict is a completely different Not a matter so indicting just means like hey There's like the abundance of evidence that something probably happened But when you go trial you have to be approved that it actually did buttoned up beyond a reasonable doubt So I get an indictment that doesn't necessarily lead to a trial But like other things in this case it is the way that it was handled that just feels so Shady so after this comes out the internet enters their bird hair And here is where like I do roll my eyes a little bit you guys like do because it cannot be everyone I feel like it can't be it can't be mom did it like because of a wedding accident and dad did it because like she's getting less than And birt did it because she ate the pint like it cannot be all of the things It can't be Santa and on the foreign faction and john mark car like It feels a little like the world kind of just like latches on to a theory for a while And if that doesn't go anywhere or they get bored They like pick a new thing But it's not things like all of these are real people who I say again
Can't all be guilty or all murdering her so I don't think we have the right to say that we know what happened when we just straight up Do not know what happened But at this point in our story like the world is coming for Burke And maybe I think a small part of it like that at least like spawns This isn't like a brand new idea But like the way the certain indictments that they did release those counts They were ones about assisting about placing her in harm's way like Not actually indicting you from murder yourself And so I think it gets people being like okay Well, if it wasn't them like who would they be assisting who would they be protecting? And the only other person that we know of in that home was her nine-year-old brother And this reaches like peak crazy in 2016 when two things happen One birt goes on dr. phil and two cbs releases this like ridiculous special Reinvestigating the case do you remember that? I remember both of these things. Yes So like I hate to ruin tv for everyone they legit did zero reinvestigating It was basically just like one of the books that had been written forever ago Rehash they were all just like sitting around a table getting paid But they say that in this like reinvestation they have this like revolutionary theory that Burke was up that night eating pineapple
John vane tried to be like he's some he got mad whack during the head with the flashlight and then like everything was staged to cover up for him Oh the pineapple. We're finally we're at the pineapple. We're at the pineapple Okay, so we know there's pineapple in her stomach that cannot be explained by any version of any events that we've gotten Every single story does not include Okay, okay I've been spiral four days here because without a doubt there is more to what happened that night That we just do not know like this is the one thing I can point to to be like we don't have the full story Now it could be that she just thought it got herself or that someone else gave it to her It could be that someone in the house that could be someone not in the house But she did not go right to bed and then die like she ate pineapple We can all agree on that So there is a bowl of what looks like pineapple and condensed milk next to a glass of tea on the table That was photographed by police like at the house that day like when they were processing the scene When they fingerprint these things it's patsy and berg's prince on the bowl and berg's prince on the team Neither claims to have gotten like gotten that out or eaten at that night patsy suggests that maybe
When they had everyone over like someone got that like the morning of because she doesn't know where it came from I don't know why like this is like just stuck in their home Like I don't get like two hung up on patsy's prince being on a bowl And maybe less like their housekeeper put everything away But I think about like unloading the dishwasher. Yeah or getting something out for berg like so we see this in an image We think that like okay, it could be the pineapples. It might not be the pineapples You know what I mean? It could just be someone else's pineapple Yeah, and then we still don't know where the pineapple or something came from There's also a mag light found on the counter in the house which it's been theorized that it could be the murder web But there's like zero forensic evidence on that mag light to actually support that it's the murder weapon No one knows why the light was taken out. No one knows where it came from They don't know if it was the ramsies at all But in the cbs thing they are sure that berg hid jonkeney with this flashlight or some flashlight And it must be true because they show another nine-year-old kid hitting a watermelon with it. It is yeah
It's like awful. It's an out of ten detective in here guys. So So that that's gonna come out to 60 before that comes out John ramsie gets a call. He has a new lawyer by this point. He has cozied up with a guy They become or he or at least he's like with him legally for a long time He's his name is Lynn wood. He's also another fun google if you have him in it
Lynn has been representing john as john and patcy like the family has been like suing the tablets who publish really defamatory things about the family Well, Lynn wood knows film about a k. Dr. Phil And so dr. Phil supposedly according to john like gives them a call and it's like hey heads up cbs the network that i'm on Is about to do this show where they take aim at birth like you should you berg should come on my show and like say your piece and berg does and the world just eats that kid alive Yeah, I remember watching this and it almost being painful to watch and then watching what happens after it was like Even worse and I I feel bad empathy for him because like he's already going through a lot in his life and then to be on camera It changes so much of like who you are how you react like what you say and he didn't like he didn't grow up on camera No, he was like sequester is like the best word I can think of like yeah, see berg Ever we didn't see berg and on the new john that's something they were really intentional about they wanted him to try and have like as much of a normal
Life as they could today would really protect and they move to it lana for a while they end up moving from it liana back to charl He like grows up in this like small michigan town and so he's not used to a camera like it does it comes off awkward It comes off weird. It's a little uncomfortable But like pick any number of reasons why that is and there's been like theorizing out the wazoo But like someone's not guilty of something because they smile too much like right i'm sorry no And i'm sure the way that we saw like john and patcy prepped for their interviews I'm sure there was some prep here and like listen doctor phil was like throwing softballs Like that's the one thing I will say and berg got his pointer. I was like he says he doesn't know what happened to his sister He certainly wasn't involved. He said his parents were good parents and that this is all a media circus that has like kind of ruined his family's life So there's like so many things that i'm just like this interview me he's not doing that And he says it's one thing that like I i'm like did i miss like what did i hear that right?
So he's talking about to phil and and i actually i actually just want to play the clip I think your dad had said he used the flashlight that night to put you to bed and then you snuck downstairs to play Yeah, i had some toy that i wanted to put together i remember being downstairs after everyone was kind of in bed and Wanna get this thing out? Did you use the flashlight so you wouldn't be seen? I don't remember i just remember being downstairs. I remember this toy Did you hit your sister over the head with a baseball bat or a flashlight? This is not a version of any story we've heard ever ever heard and i asked on specifically about this Because in my mind i'm like oh my god this is like It burks us downstairs when all this had like did he hear something did he see something and i asked john about this and again i go back to like I know john and passe did media training like did they just like throw burk to the wolves like without it like And dr phil says that john's the one that told him this so i asked john about it and at first john john is like oh no
Like that's so much has gotten misreported That's not real and i said no john like dr phil says you told him this and then burk responds and agrees and says yes i was down stairs And john just said like i didn't know that okay so i asked him you know in our interview i was like i know people have talked to burk But they had a lot of child psychologists at the time trying to like you have to get into that really sense he's not I know those people were talking to him, but did at any point you and passe have conversations with him and john like immediately showed it down It's like no there's no way he did this and i'm like actually that's not what i'm saying Like when we were we were young like we grew up with siblings I'm like the other world where he's downstairs even if he wasn't say that all that was like dr phil weird slip There's in my mind things that like kids see a relationship and a bond that like siblings have and you don't necessarily like put the weight in them as a kid Yeah, and like there are things like i knew about my siblings Right like i saw them in a different way than my parents on them I saw the way that we interacted with other people differently than my parents saw like also kids really to tune to things like Like that you know it's so much. Yeah, especially when like some people are ignoring you as a kid
Like you just pick up on a lot that i asked him i was like Like there could be something he knows that he doesn't even know he knows if you've never talked to him in all these years And john said that like he's confident that burk would have told him if there were something so i mean i think that you're like How do you how do you balance that of like trying to do right by your one kid trying to get justice for the other one And I think what he is trusting that burk would tell him something if there was something to tell or if he You know years and years and years down the line if something comes in like he's gonna come forward as a sister He he left her the same way the rest of his family would have so after that cbs special so dr Phil then there's a cbs special linn would represent berk in a 750 million dollar lawsuit against cbs in the suit they lay out what they call the statement of fact and I will say they do try to correct the record here so I mean there's like not like when they state in fact like list of these different things and number 29 It says that burk exercised his right of reasonable response by granting one interview to dr Phil McGraw in which he denied any involvement in john bays murder. So I actually think like there like there was a legal strategy even coming into this because
He would have either I believe if i'm understanding right had to give statement to cbs in some way Like in response to like the claims they were making or have like publicly stated and he had never done interviews before So he had to give an interview to someone so I think that was part of the reason he came forward when dr Phil gave him that call Like he needed some statement out there saying like he had nothing to do with his sister's death Now the other thing is it's number 130 and 131 it says that burk was not awakened during the night and burk Did not leave his bedroom during the night. So unless those facts were challenged Which I don't believe they were because they ended up settling that kind of becomes the de facto record So even though we have burk on dr phil saying he went downstairs We have this like legal document where they're saying that the fact is he didn't wake up and he didn't go downstairs and on paper That's I think the law, but I wish we could talk ask him. Yeah, because I'm with you like I don't think he did anything But there is just so much yeah that my siblings would do that I would do that they knew about that our parents See like it's as kids kind of live in your own worlds like you know below the line of sight of your parents in a certain way I think there's something to say that he can say he'll say it
I know he's met with investigators like so it's not like he hasn't even like talked to please He did he's met with child psychologist. So yeah to go all the way back to your question of like how do you get to the who? I don't know So, you know, we shared when we met with john like we shared our information and obviously told him like if burk is open to talking I know he doesn't do interviews and john's like you know, he's not dull if he wants to do it like he will but we haven't heard from him So I don't know to get back to your question of like how do you get to the who I think you just start You've got to just start shipping away at this case if I think that's what Certainly loose met was doing with his work as my family continues to do again I'm gonna link to the podcast that I mentioned I think it's interesting They kind of go person by person that they were actually like going out there and collecting DNA samples from these people ruling them out One by one suspects that I had never heard of not even just the usual that I mentioned like sanna and john Our car like we left this list behind that people like made up of people he thought were worth looking into And in the order he thought that they should be looked into and so that's what they're working off of But you have to wonder if the name of john vene's killer is even on on that list
I know or if like has the other question I have is like has the dna led us astray because There was this thing that recently happened in colorado that has me like all kinds of nervous for this case So in 2023 it came to like that it analyst at the cbi lab this woman named yvonne missy woods She was manipulating the dna testing process like this investigation is still ongoing as of this recording in november 2024 so far they have found that she omitted material facts in official criminal justice records and tampered with dna testing by altering or omitting Some test result from the case file so far they haven't found any evidence that she falsified any dna matches like thank god so far But that is all from cases that she worked between 2008 and 2023 now they have to go back and look at paper records from 1994 to 2008 so she was there the whole time of the on days case Yeah, and listen not all of the dna testing was done by like state agencies like the long-dong stuff came from body
But there was definitely some pretty critical work that came out of the crime lab in this Which has me shook because like if this is a dna case like luusmet and the ransi say what do we do if the dna was wrong This is not the answer that anyone is here, but you have to start all over you have to I don't know If you can now okay here here's two things so i'll say i asked john about this and he says that he's been told By like the people who give him information or he's been told that confidently missy woods didn't work on the ransi case like so He feels confident that the result have not been skewed by whatever she was doing I mean like in my mind the investigation is ongoing so like I don't know but he he told me he is confident he has been told It's not applicable here like we don't have to worry about it But if we have to start all over like the good news is like there's even better forms of testing right like you think about all the genealogy stuff That's being done. Oh, yeah Now there's no mention of utilizing this technology to assist with the case yet And john ransi said in my interview with him that he's afraid because he's trying to find out where the evidence is like what can we do now
Right like he's starting over or not starting over like there's just new testing that needs to be done Yeah, and he doesn't can't get a straight answer. He says about if the evidence is secure where it is So he doesn't know like his biggest fear is maybe someone lost it or maybe they're protecting someone how to protect bolder I don't think I was looking out for bolder. Um, but everyone says that they're committed to looking out for jumping I'll say that there was a cold case review. Um, this team was brought in in the greasively like 2023 They're said to have made recommendations about how to move the case forward what those were if they're being acted on unclear to me We did like I said we reached out to the das office and the boulder pd surprise Nothing juicy from them. So obviously they declined my offer, but they did give us statements So the das office pio said quote the murder of jonpenny ramsey was a tragedy Our office has successfully prosecuted cold case homicides and many other murder cases Our office appreciates the continued collaboration with cdps cbi the fbi and the boulder police department as with any cold case homicide The overarching goal is to look at the facts and evidence with fresh eyes
And an open mind armed with the latest developments in forensic science The presentation to the cold case review team generated helpful recommendations Our office is continuing to work with federal state and local agencies to make progress on this tragic case end quote Boulder pd gave us this statement. The killing of jambane was an unspeakable crime and this tragedy has never left our hearts Boulder police chief steve redford said we are committed to following up on every lead And we are continuing to work with dna experts and our law enforcement partners around the country until this tragic case is solved This investigation will always be a priority for the boulder police department Because it's an open and ongoing investigation the boulder police department is unable to give any interviews or comment on specific aspects of this crime We continue to investigate and encourage anyone with information to contact detectives at boulders most wanted at bouldercolorado.gov Or by calling the boulder police deadline at 303 441 174 As for john ransy He says that he is fighting for his daughter in the last few years
He recently started doing more interviews and his eldest son john andro has even gotten really involved as well and they're both featured in the new documentary on Netflix they are pushing for authorities to do more testing they've met with author and labs themselves They feel that genealogy could be the thing that this case has been waiting for If the evidence is still there and john hasn't gotten an answer about that yet And that is where he asks for crime junkies help like I think it is something that no matter where you come out on this case Like this is something we can all get behind because there is unknown dna there And we have to find out who that belongs to because there is no world where anyone could be prosecuted in this case without that dna being explained Now john also says that he encourages people to write to their congressman about something called the victims families rights act It was signed into law federally by joe by new 2021 But john says that it needs to be passed in each state and what this would do is it would allow families of loved ones to request a Federal review of their loved ones case after it's been cold for three years
And this is something that he says that he wishes he would have had So, I mean I asked him if he's going to be pushing for this in colorado He's moved out of state now, but again the case is still there But he says that he doesn't have connections in colorado anymore Now john says that he has heard that they're just waiting for him to die so that this case will go away But if I believe one thing about this case, it's that it's not going away anytime soon We are not going away So if you have made it to the end thank you Thank you for being a crime junkie being a crime junkie means that you're into more than just the headlines And there is still so much more to this case. I would encourage you to go check out the netflix documentary It's dropping on november 25th 2024 It is called cold case who killed the jambonay And you can go right now to our youtube if you're listening you could watch this episode or you can go check out the interview That I have with john ramsi is available right now Did I I didn't tell you so when I was when I was there for the interview
I um I'm walking back from dinner to my hotel. I'd be like I see this restaurant and i'm like Wait, pasta jay is pasta. Why don't I shot up? I'm like, why don't I know pasta jay's and i'm like, oh my god Actually, you've been living in the shop in ramsi case like that's where they had dinner on christm see Yeah, they're friends with with pasta jay, and I was like that's so strange and so i'm like googling i'm like I didn't know it was a franchise. It's not a franchise. It's it's literally in boulder and then where he lives
And so the next day he said something about um, I can't wait it was like, oh, yeah My friend owned pasta jays and I was like, yeah, I was gonna ask you about that I saw it last night and he's like, oh, yeah And by the way, mike bynum owns the hotel that you were saying that I Crime junkie is an audio chuck production. So what do you think juck do you approve? When the nights grow longer the shadows start to stir and that can only mean one thing full body chills is back The season step inside original tales where every doorway leads somewhere darker every stranger carries a secret and nothing is ever quite what it seems Each story takes you somewhere new but be careful You never know what might follow you home. So gather around listen close and stream full body chills wherever you get your podcast