PDA Isn’t Defiance with Kaitlin Wilder

Thank you for listening!You can access .5 Ethics CEUs with the link below.CEU Links: https://form.jotform.com/260484210616148----------------What if the “noncompliance” you’re seeing isn’t defiance at all—but a nervous system that genuinely can’t handle one more demand? In this episode, we sit down with behavior analyst and ACT-based coach Kaitlin Wilder to rethink PDA, pressure, and what actually helps kids (and clinicians) move forward.Key Questions Explored in the Episode:What is PDA, and why do some people prefer “pervasive drive for autonomy” over “pathological demand avoidance”?Why do traditional reinforcement systems often backfire with PDA profiles?What does “it’s a can’t, not a won’t” actually look like in real life?What is “demand energy,” and how do kids detect it instantly?How does ACT (Acceptance and Commitment Therapy) fit into ABA work—especially in schools?Kaitlin Wilder shares her background as a school-based behavior analyst and special education teacher, describing how “real life” school environments often make even the best plans fall apart. She explains how burnout, anxiety, and an identity built around overworking eventually led her to take FMLA during COVID—and how learning ACT helped her shift from external behavior control to internal flexibility and values-based action.The conversation then turns to PDA: what it is, why the label is contentious, and why it’s often experienced as “a can’t, not a won’t.” Kaitlin describes how PDA strategies can start as social avoidance tactics and escalate when the child feels unheard or pressured—especially when adults rely on authority, charts, and consequences. She emphasizes that compassion and presence matter, but warns that “the next step” mindset can itself become a demand. ACT, she argues, is uniquely suited here because it centers the person’s experience, language, and values—helping them untangle anxiety-driven avoidance loops and build committed action that comes from within.About The Guest:Kaitlin Wilder is a behavior analyst with 15 years of experience across school-based roles, including special education teaching and district behavior support. She now runs Wild Sub Behavior, integrating ACT-informed coaching and direct clinical work—especially with complex cases—focused on psychological flexibility, autonomy-supportive practice, and sustainable change for neurodivergent individuals and the professionals who support them.Time Stamps:00:00 Kaitlin’s 15-year journey in ABA + school-based reality10:45 Burnout, COVID pressure, and taking FMLA12:36 Discovering ACT, leaving public school, starting a coaching business14:43 Introducing PDA topic + “lived experience” emphasis15:37 PDA language: “pathological demand avoidance” vs “pervasive drive for autonomy”18:46 Real-life school example: escalation, overwhelm, “nothing works”22:04 “It’s a can’t, not a won’t” + shifting perspective29:06 “Demand energy” + why “next step” can become the demand32:39 Anxiety as future-focused planning that drives avoidance35:45 ACT as neuroaffirming and person-centered—treating the child like a real client42:35 PDA community distrust of ABA + need for affirming practice49:25 Teacher training + burnout + self-work as the missing ingredient52:49 Closing message: confidence as freedom from needing to be “right”Links for the Guest:Connect with Kaitlin Wilder: [email protected]://www.facebook.com/kaitlinwilderherehttps://www.instagram.com/kaitlinwilderherehttps://www.linkin.com/in/kaitlinwilderhereReady to shift from “How do I make them comply?” to “How do I reduce pressure and build real flexibility?”Tune in to the full episode for practical insights on PDA, ACT, and creating change that actually lasts.