Welcome to Divorce Dialogues. I'm Catherine Miller. Divorce Dialogues brings expert guests to the airways to talk through your divorce questions and fill in the gray areas of that separating. From thinking about divorce, to how to behave during divorce, to what to do after, this is Divorce Dialogues.
Welcome to Dialogues on Divorce. I'm Catherine Miller. I'm the founder of the Miller Law Group and director at the Center for Understanding and Conflict, and I am on a mission to change how people divorce and help them divorce with dignity and respect. And my guest today is Tara Eisenhardt.
Tara, I think you're on a similar mission. Tara is a divorce coach, mediator, teacher, and author of The D Word. Welcome, Tara. It's really terrific to have you on the show.
Thank you so much. I'm happy to be here. You know, some of the materials that we got from your office, I think you have a tagline and see if this sounds familiar, divorce is about evolution, not dissolution. I really think that's so wonderful.
Tell us more about it. Yeah, so that's the way that I see it. Unfortunately, we live in a culture that really shames divorce and we use terrible terminology when we talk about it. We talk about broken homes and broken families.
And that has not been my experience as a child of divorced parents and as a divorcee myself. Life goes on. And I think that we would be so much better served if we changed the conversation to focus on the fact that this is a change and it's a new chapter, it's a new beginning, and we're all just learning and growing together always. And divorce is really no different.
It's about evolution. I think that's true. You know, there's a comment, and it turns out to be a misconception, I think, but that the Chinese character for conflict includes both crisis and opportunity. And it's true, I think, that every crisis, and I put air quotes around that, has opportunity.
And I think it's an opportunity to kind of reset and reboot our lives and say, wait a second, where do I really want to be? Who am I really? And what do I want the rest of my life to look like? And really plan it based on what's really important instead of kind of a reactive mode that often happens.
Absolutely. So much opportunity there. And for me, when I was getting divorced, I was in a situation where my marriage was terrible and I was not able to be the person that I wanted to be. And so when we decided to get divorced, it really came as a relief.
And there was so much of an opportunity for me. I was able to move to be closer to my job and closer to other things that I wanted to do. I took a photography class. I was able to start taking yoga classes.
I went back to school. There was this whole world that opened up to me that was not available before. I actually found that was true when I got divorced also. And what was really, the world was not just outside me.
It was mostly inside me. The world of discovering who I am and who I want to be and really how to nurture that person that I want to be in the best way that I possibly can. So I always think of it as really, yeah, it's sad, it's difficult, it's challenging, and it's freeing its opportunity and its transition more than it is, I think, some kind of crisis. So tell us about your work a little bit there, Eisenhardt, your work as a divorce coach and as a teacher, as well as a mediator.
What are the clients that you'd like to work with? What do you find most interesting about the work, working with divorcing people, and make it a little surprising? Well, I work with people at various stages of the divorce process. I work with people who are still living together, but they've come to the conclusion that the marriage is over and they just don't know where to go next.
I've also worked with people who have been divorced for several years. One thing is that you never stop being divorced. It doesn't matter, you know, even if you get married again, you're always still somebody who's been divorced. And if people share children, a lot of the, you know, the conflicts and the difficulties will persist as long as they're still trying to work together.
So I do work with people at multiple stages of the process. And my passion is really in changing the conversation and being able to look at this as an opportunity to move forward. So I'd really like to be able to work with people who believe in that opportunity, that they believe that this change is possible. They believe that something good can come out of this.
And maybe they're just a little bit stuck. They're a little overwhelmed with, you know, there's so much information out there and everybody wants to tell you what to do. And it's hard to hear your own voice. And so I really like to be able to work with people and help them to hear their own voice and make decisions about what is not necessarily good or fair or winning, but what is appropriate for them and their family and their life at this point.
So I do that through the one-on-one coaching where it's a very directional process. We look at where are you, where would you like to be, what kind of things are you struggling with, look at that kind of self-awareness piece and those goals and try to put together a strategy for that. And in a mediation setting, I work with both people, which is fantastic because mediation is an opportunity to empower people to speak for themselves, which I think is so beautiful as part of the divorce process. Because like I said, it's about evolution, not dissolution.
This family is evolving, this couple is evolving. And what better way to kind of set the stage and make those most appropriate decisions than being able to speak for themselves instead of hiring separate attorneys to do negotiations for them. So I love that about mediation. It's so empowering.
And then I also offer my courses. I have some online courses and I do work in the community to just kind of give people some tips and some tools to help them figure out their process, learn a little bit more about that self-awareness and work with people and talking about, you know, emotional wounds and physical wounds. I do this whole comparison there where if I have a physical wound on my body, there's lots of different options to get that treated. And the emotional wounds of divorce are very much the same.
If you have that awareness and you know, is it something that I can deal with at home? Do I need to see a doctor? Do I need to see a specialist? Do I need medication?
What's the best way to heal through this process? It's interesting because the brain, you know, doesn't distinguish between emotional injury and physical injury. Like the reaction is very similar. So sometimes we're much more willing, you know, as a culture or even as an individual to see a doctor get help with something, you know, a broken arm or a contusion or a bruise or a cut, but, you know, emotionally you're just supposed to suck it up.
Right. And you know, you feel shame about meeting or doing well with some treatment. There's so much shame around divorce. It's heartbreaking.
And the way that I look at it, when I first started to go down the path and ask these questions, because I had such a good experience with divorce, I grew up thinking divorce was a good thing. When I realized that it wasn't, I became very serious. And what I realized was that there's so much shame around the topic that even if people start off wanting to have a good process, because they feel so bad about what's happening, there's so much of a tendency to lash out and blame somebody. And so they end up blaming each other and tearing their family apart over this, you know, means of self-preservation.
Yeah, so the whole divorce itself makes the whole thing worse. But let me go back, because I wanted to talk about speaking for yourself, you know, especially in the context of divorce, because usually, in my experience, once people have made the decision to divorce, something has gone awry, right? And they often find themselves And I think this is true, even in healthy, ongoing relationships, people find themselves in what I call a conflict trap, right? They have a conflict dynamic, where one person says something, the other person says something, and then the third person says what they always say, and then, you know, 20 or 30 minutes, exactly the same conversation over and over and over again, even if the subject matter is a little different, but, you know, and it really has to do with not feeling heard or appreciated by the other person, and certainly misunderstood by the other person.
And I think that one of the, you know, when you're talking about working with couples who are divorced, but still trying to work together to raise children, you know, one thing that often holds on is that same old conflict pattern of misunderstanding, feelings of lack of appreciation, and certainly a lot of hurt and pain. Certainly that was true in my life. And so how do you, as a coach and a mediator, or even as a teacher, help people kind of figure that out and find a different way to talk to each other? Well, one of the tools that I use, I try to help people with is the concept of nonviolent communication, being aware to notify or identify feelings and needs.
And whether that's within myself to be able to say, I feel lonely, and I'm needing some connection, I'm needing some company, or to offer empathy to another person, you know, you seem really frustrated, are you upset, because he needs some more freedom in this situation, whatever those kinds of things might be. But as human beings, we all have the same unique and beautiful needs, and we can recognize that and appreciate that in each other. So that's one of the things that I work with people on is to develop that awareness and that feelings and needs language to help them speak better for themselves, and then also be able to connect better with others through that empathy. And the other thing that I work with people on is to really just kind of stopping.
And when that conflict comes up, you know, we have such a knee-jerk response that we want to dive in with that kind of reaction that we are programmed to have. And so I work with people a lot on helping them kind of stop that and stepping back and thinking about what are my goals in this situation, or what are my goals ultimately, and what are my options, and how am I actually going to get closer to my goal? Because really, as we're moving through a divorce, the ideal outcome of the divorce is not how am I going to defend myself from this text message that I got from my ex. The ideal outcome is something much bigger and broader, and so we need to be able to think about that when we're going through these smaller interactions.
This is Dialogue on Divorce. I'm Catherine Miller. I'm talking today with Tara Eisenhard about her perspective of divorce as evolution, not dissolution. Dialogue on Divorce is here on WBOX.
That's 1460AMWBOX.com every other Wednesday from 5 to 5.30. But you also might be listening on the podcast, which is available on my website, www.westchesterfamilylaw.com, as well as on iTunes and SoundCloud. And Tara, tell us about your book, The D Word. My book is called The D Word, Divorce Through Child Eyes, and it is a story of divorce told from the perspective of a 12-year-old girl named Gina.
And the book follows her from the night that her parents say they're going to get a divorce throughout the next year of her life. So the reader can see what she's thinking, what she's feeling, how she's struggling, and what she's seeing from her parents and from her siblings, and what kind of interaction she's having with her friends as her family is changing, and she's struggling to find her place in this new family dynamic. Is it meant to be used, you know, read with stories with parents and children to help them sort of process their own experience, to hand to kids, for parents to read? It is for, I say that it's a tool for the whole family.
When I started reading it or writing it, I thought I was writing a story for 12-year-old girls. And it's certainly appropriate for 12-year-old girls. I wanted it to be something that they could identify with, something that I would have liked to have read when my parents were getting divorced when I was about that age. But then when I started to get into it a little bit more, I realized that I wanted it to be a tool for adults, too.
One of the things that I see so much in divorce is that everybody has their own perspective, and we get locked into our own viewpoints, and we're, of course, surrounded by people who validate our position on things. And so we make assumptions, especially between parents and children, that, you know, you live with me, and you're seeing what I'm seeing, for instance. And that's not necessarily true, whereas mom and dad are exes, and they see each other as enemies, or at least as exes. Children still see them as mom and dad.
And so I wanted adults to be able to see that Gina's experience is much, much different than her mother's experience, for instance, even though her mother thinks that they're on the same team, they're on the same page. That's not really the way that it's happening. You said earlier, I think you said that you're the child of divorce, and that your experience of your parents' divorce was a good one. Did I hear that right?
Yes. What was it about it? Well, it was good because my family grew from that experience, and my parents' relationship improved. My relationship with each of my parents improved as a result of that.
You know, when my parents lived together, they were under the same roof, and they were fighting all the time, and it just wasn't a happy situation for anybody. But as soon as the pressure was relieved, when they didn't have to live together anymore, they were able to cooperatively co-parent much better. I never felt that my parents handled it fantastically. I never felt that I needed to choose between them.
My mom's family remained very concerned about my dad, really interested in how he was, and how was my life with him, and how was his family. And the same thing with my dad's family about my mom. And so it just seemed like my family just grew, and it changed, and relationships got better. And as my parents coupled with new people, there were more people around me to love me and support me and help me with my homework.
And so I really grew up thinking of divorce as a solution to a problem. I thought it was a good thing, and I had no idea that most people didn't have the kind of experience that I did. And Tara Eisenhardt, when you say that your parents handled it really well, what did they do particularly well? Let me just say that I have, on several occasions, sent out surveys and posted them on social media to say, if you're an adult child of divorce, if you could go back in time and tell your parents something that you'd like them to do differently, and something that they're doing really well, what would those things be?
So I'm asking you those questions, so be warned. What could have they done better questions coming also? The best thing that happened that came out of it was that they stopped fighting. That was the number one thing, which I think is what's so different in my experience versus other people's experiences, because my parents stopped fighting when they got divorced.
And I'm sure that there was still a lot of tension in their relationship, but I didn't see it. I wasn't aware of it. I wasn't walking on eggshells around them. And like I said, I was never put in the middle.
I was never made to feel that I needed to choose sides. They were both still my parents. They just didn't live together anymore. You know, everything was okay.
That was what was really great about it. And then I can go ahead and answer the what they could have done better question. And I think the biggest thing there was that they could have provided more of an opportunity for dialogue with me. And I was 13 when they separated.
I was a good student. I was a really good kid. I didn't, you know, I didn't give my parents any trouble, and they weren't worried about me. But because of that, they just sort of assumed that I was fine.
And so looking back now, it would have been helpful if we could have just had a little bit more, if I was given an invitation to talk a little bit about anything, really, but especially around the divorce. How was I thinking? What was I feeling? You know, is there anything that is going well or not?
And so now when I work with people, I encourage them to, if possible, to hold some kind of a family meeting, a regular time when kids know, okay, it's, you know, next Sunday, we're all going to sit down. And I know that it's going to be time to talk about this kind of stuff rather than just, like, I would held back and thought, well, you know, my parents have their own problems or everything, you know, everything's okay. The world's not ending. I'll just deal with this.
This is Dialogue on Divorce. I'm Catherine Miller, and I'm talking today with Tara Eisenhardt about divorce as evolution. And, you know, it's one of the things that I like a lot about the collaborative process with the role of the child specialist is that person's role is to give the voice to the children, give them an opportunity to comment about that. You know, to be able to sort of say, maybe not directly to their parents, but to someone who will bring the message into the process, here's what's good, here's what could be better, here's what we'd like, here's what we don't like.
I think that's a really wonderful thing. Also, about your new online course, the Good Divorce Principles course. Tell us where to find out more information about it and also a little bit more about the course. Sure.
So my website is taraeisenhardt.com, T-A-R-A-E-I-S-E-N-H-A-R-D.com, and you can find a little bit of everything on there. My book is available. It's on Amazon.com. You can order it in any bookstore, pretty much wherever books are sold.
It is available in hardcover, in paperback format, and then also as an e-reader, so anybody who has a Kindle or a Note or iBooks, you can get that for your e-reader as well. And the information about my course, it is called the Good Divorce Principles, and in that case, the word good is an acronym. It stands for Goals, Observation, Options, and Dignity. And this is a work-at-your-own-pace online course.
It does come with a half-hour of coaching additionally with that. When people can go in, they can join the course, work at their own pace, learn the concepts of the good divorce. And I like to say that you can have a one-sided good divorce. One person has a lot of power in the conflict, and so you might not be able to drive the train all the way to Sunshine Town, but you can probably stop it from going off a cliff.
And that's what the Good Divorce Principles are all about, is in helping people to really help to steer that train to a more productive place. So it sounds like the course is designed not for couples working together to find a way to come apart, although obviously that would probably be great, but really for one person looking to find their best way through this time in their lives. Right, and ideally both people would participate and partake of the Good Divorce Principles, but it's really designed to be an individual kind of a lesson. And what are some of the strategies or techniques that you teach people?
I'm not going to reveal the entire thing right here, but just as a sample. So the, like I said, goals... observation options dignity and so go through each of those and the various reasons for setting goals ways to keep yourself on track with those goals things like that setting goals for various areas of your life and then the observation piece i had mentioned before with non-violent communication so that's something that comes in there and then the options and dignity we work around finding really the alignment to the goal and doing a little bit of self-discovery and thinking about what does dignity mean to me and how to preserve dignity for children in the family and setting different boundaries to maintain a dignified approach and then also receiving dignified treatment from other people another thing that you do to our eyes and hard is you teach and you teach about divorce what kind of groups do you speak to and what do you speak about i speak to different groups and different things i do community events i've talked to groups of attorneys i've talked to groups of therapists and really my message the heart of my message always is that divorce is about evolution not dissolution it doesn't have to be this shameful horrible thing it's not a dirty word i talk about the tips for healthy healing and ways that people can move through divorce in a more productive process and when i'm working with professionals i like to talk about ways that the divorce landscape is changing we're seeing a lot more people looking for collaborative options or for mediation we're seeing couples that are you know they're buying houses right next to each other they're continuing to vacation together even after the divorce papers are done and they've remarried new spouses or they're bird messing and the kids are staying in the same house while mom and dad move in and out so there's all these different things that are coming into the landscape now and so when i'm talking to professionals i like to ask about you know what are they seeing and how can all of us participate in this new conversation how can we get out there in our own place with our own expertise and continue to encourage people to move forward in a productive manner and do you find that the groups you're talking to are receptive or there's still sort of a reluctance and a more old-fashioned way of looking at divorce i found a little bit of both well you know my grandmother told me before i got married for the first time that i no matter what happened i should never get divorced because it was important to put the family first and to her that meant whatever i had to do drink have affairs whatever that i should you know stay married no matter what and i've had a lot of clients over the years who were told similar things by their families and i think there is a very i mean you probably come across that too have you yes absolutely so much of a reluctance to leave because we have this idea that if the marriage is intact then everything else is okay but a lot of times you know an intact marriage doesn't mean that it's healthy and so another thing i talk about is you know how do we define success and failure in a marriage and looking at the vows that people take when they get married they promise to be faithful to each other they promise to love honor and cherish and divorce doesn't break those vows divorce just means that the vows were broken and so a lot of times you know people are living in an intact marriage but they're not honoring their vows and yet as a society we look at that and say oh yeah they're doing a good job but are they yeah no i think that's really true and i think there's a lot of fear about what divorce means about us as failures and whether or not our children will be devastated even though the studies show that most children of divorce like yourself do very well and equally as well as children from you know quote-unquote intact families well i think that it is really a shame you know when people really struggle for years about whether or not to divorce or not and they're unhappy but they're afraid to not get happy do you ever have clients come in trying to make that decision yes and people ask me all the time you know if i if i tell people what they should do i don't tell people what they should do that's not my place to say you should stay married or you should leave but what i do help people to do is to hear their own voice and a lot of times people will tell me how desperately unhappy they are but i know a lot of times people say but i'm saying for the kids and my question to them is always if your child was an adult and they told you everything that you just told me what would you want for them yeah why don't you want that for yourself i think that's a great question children don't always appreciate having been waited for either because sometimes i can be even more burdensome well tara eisenhart thank you so much for being our guest on dialogue on divorce it's been a pleasure to have you thank you so much thank you you