Robin Oliveira – Historical Bestsellers

Robin Oliveira got started writing her first book after she saw a ghost – yes – quite literally! Hi there I’m your host Jenny Wheeler and today Robin talks about the unusual visitation that prompted a lot of questions, and tells what she’d do differently if she was starting out all over again. Six things you’ll learn from this Joys of Binge Reading episode: Why she is obsessed with ’19th century glass ceilings’ How not listening to the discouragers worked for her The holy delight of  exploring Civil War archives The public and private face of writing The most common questions readers ask The authors she admires most Where to find Robin Oliveira:  Website: http://robinoliveira.com/ Facebook: @AuthorRobinOliviera What follows is a “near as” transcript of our conversation, not word for word but pretty close to it, with links to important mentions. Jenny:   Beginning at the beginning – was there a “Once Upon a Time” moment when you decided you wanted to write fiction??  And if so what was the catalyst for it? Author Robin Oliveira Robin: I don’t have a moment that I can put my finger on in terms of thinking that I needed to be a writer, or I wanted to be a writer. I meet a lot of writers that say they absolutely wanted to be a writer from the moment they knew what books were. For me, I was a reader. I loved books. I spent my childhood reading, I spent a lot of my adulthood reading in my private time. It was after I had my children – I was a registered nurse, and I stayed home when they were young. I thought I could either go back to nursing, or I could try to write a book. When my son went off to kindergarten, that was when I started to try to teach myself how to write. I finally ended up at the community college program and then the University of Washington extension here in Seattle. They have a lovely program for writers. So it was a gradual process, but mostly I became a writer because I loved books. My Name Is Mary Sutter Jenny: Yes. And what made you choose historical fiction as your genre? You were attracted to that area obviously? Robin: I’m very drawn to the 19th century.   I’m very fond of authors like Jane Austen and George Elliott, so that was part of it. But I think the other thing is that I was drawn into historical fiction by the first character I ever wrote. As odd as it sounds, she appeared to me one day. This has never happened to me before or since. But I was dusting my dining room when a woman in a 19th century dress appeared to me. She was seated at a trestle table looking through a microscope, and she had medical books behind her. I started to investigate what person, what woman of that era would be doing in that. I just learned that women became conditioned out of their experiences in the Civil War. So then my first book was set in 19th century America. I learned so much about the era that I just wanted to learn more, so I kept setting my books there. American Civil War nurses Jenny: That’s such a remarkable experience that I’d just like to focus on it for a moment. Had you been reading anything about Civil War nurses or had anything particular in your mind related to that when this vision appeared? Robin: No, absolutely not. I knew very little about the Civil War, but I am a registered nurse so there’s that association. But I knew practically nothing about the American Civil War. I knew very little about the 19th century when I started and had that particular moment. Jenny: Was it a frightening moment? Robin: No, it’s just one of those things – a quick apparition and then it was gone. It led me down this path to write the story of women who became physicians in the Civil War, which is a story that had not yet been told in American history. Nurse with Civil War wounded Jenny: Yes, it’s marvellous – absolutely marvellous. So your heroine in that first book was Mary Sutter. I’m sure she was a fictional character. But there were 17 or more women who started out in the civil war as nurses or maybe just volunteers, who then ended up training as either doctors or more experienced nurses I gather? Robin: Yes, absolutely. Some women just felt called to go to battlefields, and they were volunteers. Dorothea Dix trained some nurses – nursing in America wasn’t a profession at that time, so Dorothea Dix essentially started nursing in America. Then some of those women became physicians out of their experiences. There were other women who inserted themselves into situations and later went on to become doctors. So it was a turning point for medical American care. Jenny: Yes. Now you mentioned Dorothea Dix – she appears in your books as a real person. Like Abraham Lincoln, she was the Superintendent of the Army of Nurses for the Lincoln Army, and she was particularly controversial I think because she had such a difficult job. There’s quite a lot online I think about how she wanted her nurses to be plain and over the age of 35. She routinely sacked nurses that she personally had not hired. What was your impression of her after you’d done all of your research? Dorothea Dix – Nursing Superintendent Robin: Well Dorothea Dix, she was 65 during the time of the Civil War, so she really came from the early Victorian Era. At that time, her moral values were such that to have women in the same room as men they didn’t know disrobed and in bed was so radical to her thinking. It verged on amoral that in order to present as moral and to present nursing as a moral activity and an endeavor that was for the good, she had to put these restrictions around it. Now, there’s some conversation in history around the fact that “nurses” in the public hospitals in New York City were really prostitutes. So there was that kind of a rumor going around that she was trying to fight. She was just trying to keep control of something that turned out to be far more unruly than she expected. She was just older, and had different values. The war upended so much that she was having trouble coping with it I think. Jenny: Yes. Also, she would have met resistance from male doctors who objected to the women for perhaps different reasons. Robin: Yes, most of the physicians were opposed to having nurses around in the operating rooms and in the wards. Women had to be quite persistent in order to get into hospitals in order to render care. So there was a lot of social prejudice that was working on her side or against her, so she had to present this rigid structure so nobody could question what they were doing. Jenny:  The book club study guides on your website outline the  rigorous research standards you adhere to in your work . .  what did this entail with “Mary Sutter?” Was there quite a lot of archival material you could access? Robin: Yes. About 6 months into starting Mary Sutter, I realised how little I knew about the Civil War and Civil War medicine. So I flew from my home in Washington State to Washington DC where we have the national archives. I sifted though a lot of original material, a lot of primary sources from Civil War hospitals. Then I went to the Library of Congress and the Battle of Gettysburg to take a look at the battlefields and see where the hospitals were. Actually, when I wrote the book I thought the book was going to end at the battlefield of Gettysburg. It ended up ending at the Battle of Antietam. I did not want to be inaccurate. For me, there is sort of some trust between the reader and the author that if I’m going to include some historical fact, it’s something I want to be true so that I can actually feel you can trust me to learn something as you read my books. I did probably more original research on nursing in the Civil War than has probably previously been done. When I went to the national archives in DC, I opened books that were crumbling, that I don’t think anyone had looked at for a long time. Hospital ledgers, nurses’ journals and notes and all kinds of things from the hospitals that had never been rounded up before. It was fascinating to see that there was still an untold story from the Civil War which was remarkable. An amputation performed after the Battle of Gettysburg Jenny: Yes, absolutely. It must of felt like you were holding holy objects. Robin: It did actually, it very much did. I got a chill up my spine when I turned those pages and realized that I might be the first person maybe since the war to have taken time with those pages.  Jenny: Yes, it’s remarkable. And then your second book you moved far away from the devastation of war – to artists in Paris . .  . I Always Loved You dealt with the relationship between two Impressionist artists – Mary Cassatt and Edgar Degas. . . what took you there after such a deep and intense Civil War experience? Robin: I moved from the Civil War to Paris just for the  reason that I was in Paris with my husband for the first time, and we were wandering from museum to museum as you do.  And somewhere I came across the information that at the end of Mary Cassatt had burned all her letters to Degas, and all Degas’ letters to her, so no-one could have any access to them. And then the question arises, “Why?” She didn’t burn any other letters – letter from her to other people abound. So that was the spark.  Generally, it’s unknown historical facts that spark my novels and this one made me very curious about their relationship. I Always Loved You Jenny: There’s this sort of theme that comes through your work. The work of artists like Berthe Morisot and Mary  C  was very much judged through the lens of their being women . . . yet both carved out viable careers as artists . . Both had a certain acumen which maybe wasn’t really properly recognized in their time? Robin: I don’t think that that’s true. I think that Mary Cassatt was very well recognised. She was receiving quite good money by the end of her life. People were buying her pictures, helped along by her friend in New York who was buying them. And then Berthe Morisot- she died quite young actually- she painted in a way that nobody else was painting. Both of them were painting what you might call “womens’ stories”. Mary Cassat focused very much on women and children, Berthe Morisot has this beautiful, light, feathery, gorgeous touch on womens’ personal lives inside the dressing room, inside the closet looking in the mirror and I think they were appreciated in their time. I think that’s the case. Jenny: Mary hints that for both her and Degas, art was their first love, leaving no room for conventional “romance.”   “But what she didn’t understand was whether there was room for love in two lives already consumed by a passion of another sort.” That’s got a sort of poignancy about it. Robin: The truth of the matter is because she burnt those letters, it’s very hard to know exactly what went on between them. But if you study where they were at any given point in time, the intensity of their relationship and how they were interacting with one another, there comes a point when Mary completely breaks with Edgar Degas for a period of time. Because he was a good friend on so many deep levels, that terrible break resonated throughout the rest of their lives. On some levels, I don’t think she ever forgave him. But on other levels, I think she did because at the end of his life, Edgar Degas lost his sight – he was blind, and there was nobody to take care of him. Edgar Degas Self Portrait Mary Cassatt came down to Paris and found a niece, and bought the niece to Edgar Degas so somebody would be taking care of him. It was a relationship of tremendous import between the two, which unfortunately because she burned a significant portion of Impressionist history with those letters will always remain questionable, but the level of poignancy – I think that’s a perfect way to put it – will never be questioned because she remained devoted to him for the rest of her life. Jenny: You said that Mary broke with Edgar. So what happened between them at that point, do we know? Mary Cassatt Robin: Yes, it’s in the book. She broke with him in 1882, for about a good five years. That was because they were working together on learning how to make prints. Prints were huge in 1880’s Paris. They were following Japanese art and Japanese prints, and they all became obsessed. They worked together for a year – Mary Cassatt stopped all her other work, while Edgar Degas did not. He was committed to a project where they were going to come out with a journal of  sorts, called  – the translated title being “The Day and The Night” of prints. He didn’t allow it to go on and be published. So a year of her work was completely taken away. Now whether or not that had something to do with their emotional life as well, it’s hard to say. Jenny: That’s interesting. You say that she came to Paris- they also moved geographically apart at some stage as well? Robin: She got a villa North of Paris. She moved away, yes. Jenny: Winter Sisters, your most recent book, returns to Mary Sutter’s world and family. It takes up Mary’s life 15 years after Book One. . .  It picks up the story of two young girls who are very close to Mary Sutter’s family.  This one was sparked by your discovery of a historical fact you found astounding. Tell us about that? Robin: Yes. So I was doing some research for another book. I think it was going to be set in Russia before the Revolution looking at womens’ rights. What happened was, I went down one of those Google holes that you go down. I learned that in 19th century America in some states. the age of consent was 10 years old. I was astounded. I stopped writing that other book and started to look at what the repercussions of that were socially. It ended up with my meeting a woman doctor for these two young girls, and then Mary Sutter became the right choice because I had set the novel in Albany, New York where Mary Sutter was from. Jenny: Yes, and that one too you do have a rape trial, and there’s a lot of scenes which have a very contemporary feel that would be very recognisable to modern women. A lot of your work has that womens’ agency in a male controlled sort of theme going through it, doesn’t it? Robin: Absolutely, it does. It turns out I’m obsessed with 19th century glass ceilings. I didn’t really know that until I started writing the third book, and then I realised it was my passion. I’d like to do it, because we’re still fighting those glass ceilings. Jenny: That’s a great way to put it, those 19th century glass ceilings. You make yourself very much available to speak to book clubs, organised through NovelNetwork, a service which matches authors with book clubs….  I gather you’ll do FaceTime or Skype in these meetings …  What is the most commonly asked question you get from readers in those sessions? Robin: Everybody wants to know what I’m writing next! Jenny: That’s a compliment to you! Robin: It seems to be the question that everybody wants to know. A lot of times, people ask me how I started writing, because I switched careers from  being a nurse to being a writer. Sometimes, people ask me what’s real and what isn’t real in the book, because I blend fiction with non fiction. I’m always happy when they can’t tell. Turning to your wider career  . . . Jenny:  Is there one thing have you done perhaps more than any other, that is the secret of your success? Robin: It’s really hard, because I think even over the last eight years, the career of a writer had changed. You have to be more out there in the world. You have to be on Instagram, and on Facebook. That’s not my particular strength, and it has a sort of siren calling card that can detract from doing the work. I’ve just learnt that if I can put blinders on and ignore the world and just write the best book that I can, and do the research as meticulously as I can – then I might be able to write a book of some merit. I’m not one of those people who can live publicly and privately at the same time. I just try to push away the world so I can get the work done, because it’s essentially a private activity. You need hours and hours to do it properly, and if you ca’t shut the world out than it’s almost impossible to get done- for me, anyway. Jenny: You’ve mentioned the Russian book and you also started out studying Russian I believe. Where did your interest in Russia originally come from? Robin: You’re going to laugh, but do you remember when Sputnik came up and everyone was worried about the Russians? I was in grade school then, and the defence department in America started Russian language programmes in select junior high schools in seventh grade. The French class was full, so I signed on for Russia. I took six years until I graduated high school and got a degree in Russian at college. I love language, and so I just fell into Russian. Then I ended up studying in Moscow for a month in my senior year of college. I thought it would be really interesting to try to write a book that connected Paris and Russia, because there was an awful lot of back and forth that happened during the revolution. The White Russians came from Moscow into Paris and set up lives. So I started to do some research in that. But then Amor Towles write his wonderful book A Gentleman in Moscow, and I thought I’m not sure if I’m going to be able to beat that one! So I let that book go. Turning to Robin as reader Jenny:   The series is called “The Joys of Binge Reading” because I see it as providing inspiration for people who like to read series . So – turning to your taste in fiction who do you “binge read” ? Any recommendations for listeners? Winston Graham a favorite Robin: If I find an author, I do actually binge read. That would probably describe my twenties, running all the English classics I could possibly find. So Jane Austen – I read them one after the other, every single book. Recently, I ran through the entire Poldark series by Winston Graham. To me, it’s actually really hard these days to find a good series of books that I like to read. I read Amor Towles’ two books, Rules of Stability and A Gentleman in Moscow. If I like the author, I’ll probably dip in. I’d have to carry my computer over to my bookshelf now! Circling back to the beginning at the end  Jenny: At this stage in your career, if you were doing it all again, what would you change – if anything? Robin: I don’t think I should have started earlier, because I didn’t publish my first book until I was 55 or 56 I think. For me, I needed to go out into the world and gather some experience. For me, it was being a nurse in the Critical Care Unit. Living, travelling and raising my family gave me a kind of wisdom that I like to draw on and I’ve seen an awful lot. So I can’t imagine starting earlier would have worked. The persistence was necessary – I persisted despite most people telling me not to be a writer, but I persisted and didn’t listen. I can’t imagine changing anything. I got very lucky. I wanted to learn how to write books and I did, and then I got them published. So I feel very lucky about the way my career went. Jenny: Why did people tell you not to do it? Just because they didn’t think there was going to be much money in it? Robin: Oh, all of those reasons. Generally, it’s how can you make enough money writing books. They thought the odds were against me. I think people like to underestimate people all the time. Jenny: Yes – it must have been really satisfying when book one was published and was really critically acclaimed, wasn’t it? It was a very successful book in terms of the critics. Robin: Yes. I had a lot of head nods from the neighbours who went “oh, it’s so great you’re writing a book”. You know, just lots of patting on the head. Then when the book came out, was critically acclaimed, sold well and was a New York Times Bestseller, suddenly nobody was patting me on the head anymore. That was very pleasant, I have to say. Jenny: What is next for Robin the writer?  What are you working on, and new projects? Robin: Well I have in mind a book that I’ve started, but I can’t really talk about it because that always ruins a book for me. It always has to germinate for me and fertilise in my mind. But I will tell you that I went on a research trip to Scotland at the end of October, so there’s a little clue! Jenny: And it will still be 19th century – can we guess that much? Robin: Yes, I can’t seem to get out of that period! Jenny: Where can readers find you on line? Robin: Everybody can send me a note via my website robinoliveira.com. I have a Robin Oliveira Author public Facebook site. (@AuthorRobinOliveria) Either of those works for me. I’m happy to chat with people. Jenny: That’s lovely Robin. It’s lovely to chat with you. Robin: Thank you Jenny, thanks a lot. Thanks To Our Technical Support: The Joys of Binge Reading podcast is put together with wonderful technical help from Dan Cotton at DC Audio Services. Dan is an experienced sound and video engineer who’s ready and available to help you with your next project… Seek him out at [email protected] or Phone + 64 – 21979539. He’s fast, takes pride in getting it right, and lovely to work with. Our voice overs are done by Abe Raffills, and Abe’s another gem. He got 20 years of experience on both sides of the camera/microphone as a cameraman/director and also voice artist and television presenter. Abe’s vocal delivery is both light hearted and warm and he is super easy to work with no matter the job. You’ll find him at [email protected]