S16 E28: Josh Swihart on Zcash & ZODL

Josh Swihart is the founder of ZODL: the Zcash Open Development Lab. Basically a for profit reincarnation of the old Electric Coin Company, which inherited the dev teams and projects. During his previous Bitcoin Takeover podcast appearance in November 2024 (S15 E62), Zcash was a struggling privacy project with very little support and a rather disappointing price action. In June 2026, Zcash is the rising star of the cryptocurrency market, with plans to scale to billions of users and ever-improving shielding technology. In this episode, we talk about the good, the bad, and the controversial moments in the recent history of Zcash... and why Bitcoin didn't activate Zerocash yet. Time stamps: 00:01:14 Intro: Josh Swihart returns after 20 months 00:02:07 Why Zcash is "in a class of its own" (and self-defeating) 00:03:28 Shielded note Q: the run on the Orchard pool before Iron Wood 00:05:22 What are shielded pools? Sprout, Sapling, Orchard explained 00:06:26 The Orchard vulnerability found by Taylor Hornby 00:06:48 Why Zcash matters to Bitcoin: Zerocoin, Zerocash, Halo 2 00:09:06 The secret: from near-delisting at $30 to near top 10 00:11:03 Governance battles, killing the dev fund, refocusing ECC 00:13:03 Peacemonger research and focusing on the first 100 users 00:14:09 Keystone, NEAR intents swaps, and shielded pool growth 00:15:23 Reflexivity and the macro case (Canadian truckers, seizures) 00:16:32 Cake Wallet, Vic Sharma, and the ZEC integration recognition problem 00:17:57 The Monero rivalry and the privacy renaissance 00:19:35 "Cypherpunk does not mean criminal": Samourai vs Wasabi 00:23:04 Railgun comparison and why fungibility matters 00:25:02 Zmap, Flexa, and spending shielded ZEC in stores 00:26:21 Buying lunch at Chipotle and a Ford F150 truck with Zcash 00:27:33 Giveaway setup + sponsors 00:30:32 Why is Zcash "lied about a ton"? 00:34:03 Debunking the low anonymity-set myth and DeFi integrations 00:35:48 "Main character syndrome," paid FUD, and the influencer claim 00:38:50 Uncorrelated price + maximalist FUD around the Orchard bug 00:40:40 The ethics of disclosure and Taylor Hornby's character 00:45:03 The security budget problem and Network Sustainability Module 00:46:56 Scaling Zcash: Tachyon, recursion, and off-chain services 00:49:35 Do shielded memos bloat the chain? 00:51:32 The shielded stablecoins / shielded assets debate 00:58:31 Last giveaway call + ZODL phone overheating 00:59:12 New user Q: where's the privacy when you spend? 01:01:02 Shielded vs transparent transactions explained 01:03:22 Number reveal and winners 01:06:39 Crypto Visa/Mastercard debit cards: winning or losing? 01:09:56 Has Bitcoin been co-opted? Adam Back and incentives 01:15:20 What stops Zcash from being co-opted like Bitcoin? 01:19:52 Decentralization and killing the trademark agreement 01:21:31 Many orgs now: Foundation, Shielded Labs, Tachyon, Valor 01:23:21 No funding from exchanges or mining pools 01:26:04 ZODL origin: Balaji, fundraising, and the ECC split 01:29:17 ZODL's business model: 50 bps on swaps 01:30:01 Hardware wallets: Keystone, Passport, Trezor Safe 7 01:34:07 How Slush discovered Bitcoin through Zooko 01:35:37 Zcash ASIC demand and decentralizing mining 01:38:51 ECC wind-down, the Bootstrap settlement, and dev funds 01:42:38 Thoughts on ZNS (Zcash Naming Service) 01:44:47 Living with the FUD and "Zionist coin" conspiracies 01:46:31 Why disclose the bug publicly? Transparency vs trust 01:48:18 Inside the emergency coordination with pools and exchanges 01:49:52 Echoes of Bitcoin's 2013 hard fork 01:51:49 Iron Wood and Tachyon upgrade timelines 01:53:31 Closing: the Zcash dance and where to follow Josh